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alt.atheism	alt atheism faq atheist resources archive name atheism resources alt atheism archive name resources last modified december version atheist resources addresses of atheist organizations usa freedom from religion foundation darwin fish bumper stickers and assorted other atheist paraphernalia are available from the freedom from religion foundation in the us write to ffrf p o box madison wi telephone evolution designs evolution designs sell the darwin fish it s a fish symbol like the ones christians stick on their cars but with feet and the word darwin written inside the deluxe moulded d plastic fish is postpaid in the us write to evolution designs laurel canyon north hollywood ca people in the san francisco bay area can get darwin fish from lynn gold try mailing figmo netcom com for net people who go to lynn directly the price is per fish american atheist press aap publish various atheist books critiques of the bible lists of biblical contradictions and so on one such book is the bible handbook by w p ball and g w foote american atheist press pp isbn nd edition bible contradictions absurdities atrocities immoralities contains ball foote the bible contradicts itself aap based on the king james version of the bible write to american atheist press p o box austin tx or cameron road austin tx telephone fax prometheus books sell books including haught s holy horrors see below write to east amherst street buffalo new york telephone an alternate address which may be newer or older is prometheus books glenn drive buffalo ny african americans for humanism an organization promoting black secular humanism and uncovering the history of black freethought they publish a quarterly newsletter aah examiner write to norm r allen jr african americans for humanism p o box buffalo ny united kingdom rationalist press association national secular society islington high street holloway road london n ew london n nl british humanist association south place ethical society lamb s conduit passage conway hall london wc r rh red lion square london wc r rl fax the national secular society publish the freethinker a monthly magazine founded in germany ibka e v internationaler bund der konfessionslosen und atheisten postfach d berlin germany ibka publish a journal miz materialien und informationen zur zeit politisches journal der konfessionslosesn und atheisten hrsg ibka e v miz vertrieb postfach d berlin germany for atheist books write to ibdk internationaler b ucherdienst der konfessionslosen postfach d hannover germany telephone books fiction thomas m disch the santa claus compromise short story the ultimate proof that santa exists all characters and events are fictitious any similarity to living or dead gods uh well walter m miller jr a canticle for leibowitz one gem in this post atomic doomsday novel is the monks who spent their lives copying blueprints from saint leibowitz filling the sheets of paper with ink and leaving white lines and letters edgar pangborn davy post atomic doomsday novel set in clerical states the church for example forbids that anyone produce describe or use any substance containing atoms philip k dick philip k dick dick wrote many philosophical and thought provoking short stories and novels his stories are bizarre at times but very approachable he wrote mainly sf but he wrote about people truth and religion rather than technology although he often believed that he had met some sort of god he remained sceptical amongst his novels the following are of some relevance galactic pot healer a fallible alien deity summons a group of earth craftsmen and women to a remote planet to raise a giant cathedral from beneath the oceans when the deity begins to demand faith from the earthers pot healer joe fernwright is unable to comply a polished ironic and amusing novel a maze of death noteworthy for its description of a technology based religion valis the schizophrenic hero searches for the hidden mysteries of gnostic christianity after reality is fired into his brain by a pink laser beam of unknown but possibly divine origin he is accompanied by his dogmatic and dismissively atheist friend and assorted other odd characters the divine invasion god invades earth by making a young woman pregnant as she returns from another star system unfortunately she is terminally ill and must be assisted by a dead man whose brain is wired to hour easy listening music margaret atwood the handmaid s tale a story based on the premise that the us congress is mysteriously assassinated and fundamentalists quickly take charge of the nation to set it right again the book is the diary of a woman s life as she tries to live under the new christian theocracy women s right to own property is revoked and their bank accounts are closed sinful luxuries are outlawed and the radio is only used for readings from the bible crimes are punished retroactively doctors who performed legal abortions in the old world are hunted down and hanged atwood s writing style is difficult to get used to at first but the tale grows more and more chilling as it goes on various authors the bible this somewhat dull and rambling work has often been criticized however it is probably worth reading if only so that you ll know what all the fuss is about it exists in many different versions so make sure you get the one true version books non fiction peter de rosa vicars of christ bantam press although de rosa seems to be christian or even catholic this is a very enlighting history of papal immoralities adulteries fallacies etc german translation gottes erste diener die dunkle seite des papsttums droemer knaur michael martin atheism a philosophical justification temple university press philadelphia usa a detailed and scholarly justification of atheism contains an outstanding appendix defining terminology and usage in this necessarily tendentious area argues both for negative atheism i e the non belief in the existence of god s and also for positive atheism the belief in the non existence of god s includes great refutations of the most challenging arguments for god particular attention is paid to refuting contempory theists such as platinga and swinburne pages isbn hardcover paperback also available the case against christianity temple university press a comprehensive critique of christianity in which he considers the best contemporary defences of christianity and ultimately demonstrates that they are unsupportable and or incoherent pages isbn james turner without god without creed the johns hopkins university press baltimore md usa subtitled the origins of unbelief in america examines the way in which unbelief whether agnostic or atheistic became a mainstream alternative world view focusses on the period and while considering france and britain the emphasis is on american and particularly new england developments neither a religious history of secularization or atheism without god without creed is rather the intellectual history of the fate of a single idea the belief that god exists pages isbn hardcover x paper george seldes editor the great thoughts ballantine books new york usa a dictionary of quotations of a different kind concentrating on statements and writings which explicitly or implicitly present the person s philosophy and world view includes obscure and often suppressed opinions from many people for some popular observations traces the way in which various people expressed and twisted the idea over the centuries quite a number of the quotations are derived from cardiff s what great men think of religion and noyes views of religion pages isbn paper x richard swinburne the existence of god revised edition clarendon paperbacks oxford this book is the second volume in a trilogy that began with the coherence of theism and was concluded with faith and reason in this work swinburne attempts to construct a series of inductive arguments for the existence of god his arguments which are somewhat tendentious and rely upon the imputation of late th century western christian values and aesthetics to a god which is supposedly as simple as can be conceived were decisively rejected in mackie s the miracle of theism in the revised edition of the existence of god swinburne includes an appendix in which he makes a somewhat incoherent attempt to rebut mackie j l mackie the miracle of theism oxford this posthumous volume contains a comprehensive review of the principal arguments for and against the existence of god it ranges from the classical philosophical positions of descartes anselm berkeley hume et al through the moral arguments of newman kant and sidgwick to the recent restatements of the classical theses by plantinga and swinburne it also addresses those positions which push the concept of god beyond the realm of the rational such as those of kierkegaard kung and philips as well as replacements for god such as lelie s axiarchism the book is a delight to read less formalistic and better written than martin s works and refreshingly direct when compared with the hand waving of swinburne james a haught holy horrors an illustrated history of religious murder and madness prometheus books looks at religious persecution from ancient times to the present day and not only by christians library of congress catalog card number norm r allen jr african american humanism an anthology see the listing for african americans for humanism above gordon stein an anthology of atheism and rationalism prometheus books an anthology covering a wide range of subjects including the devil evil and morality and the history of freethought comprehensive bibliography edmund d cohen the mind of the bible believer prometheus books a study of why people become christian fundamentalists and what effect it has on them net resources there s a small mail based archive server at mantis co uk which carries archives of old alt atheism moderated articles and assorted other files for more information send mail to archive server mantis co uk saying help send atheism index and it will mail back a reply mathew
alt.atheism	alt atheism faq introduction to atheism archive name atheism introduction alt atheism archive name introduction last modified april version begin pgp signed message an introduction to atheism by mathew mathew mantis co uk this article attempts to provide a general introduction to atheism whilst i have tried to be as neutral as possible regarding contentious issues you should always remember that this document represents only one viewpoint i would encourage you to read widely and draw your own conclusions some relevant books are listed in a companion article to provide a sense of cohesion and progression i have presented this article as an imaginary conversation between an atheist and a theist all the questions asked by the imaginary theist are questions which have been cropped up repeatedly on alt atheism since the newsgroup was created some other frequently asked questions are answered in a companion article please note that this article is arguably slanted towards answering questions posed from a christian viewpoint this is because the faq files reflect questions which have actually been asked and it is predominantly christians who proselytize on alt atheism so when i talk of religion i am talking primarily about religions such as christianity judaism and islam which involve some sort of superhuman divine being much of the discussion will apply to other religions but some of it may not what is atheism atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the existence of god some atheists go further and believe that god does not exist the former is often referred to as the weak atheist position and the latter as strong atheism it is important to note the difference between these two positions weak atheism is simple scepticism disbelief in the existence of god strong atheism is a positive belief that god does not exist please do not fall into the trap of assuming that all atheists are strong atheists some atheists believe in the non existence of all gods others limit their atheism to specific gods such as the christian god rather than making flat out denials but isn t disbelieving in god the same thing as believing he doesn t exist definitely not disbelief in a proposition means that one does not believe it to be true not believing that something is true is not equivalent to believing that it is false one may simply have no idea whether it is true or not which brings us to agnosticism what is agnosticism then the term agnosticism was coined by professor huxley at a meeting of the metaphysical society in he defined an agnostic as someone who disclaimed strong atheism and believed that the ultimate origin of things must be some cause unknown and unknowable thus an agnostic is someone who believes that we do not and cannot know for sure whether god exists words are slippery things and language is inexact beware of assuming that you can work out someone s philosophical point of view simply from the fact that she calls herself an atheist or an agnostic for example many people use agnosticism to mean weak atheism and use the word atheism only when referring to strong atheism beware also that because the word atheist has so many shades of meaning it is very difficult to generalize about atheists about all you can say for sure is that atheists don t believe in god for example it certainly isn t the case that all atheists believe that science is the best way to find out about the universe so what is the philosophical justification or basis for atheism there are many philosophical justifications for atheism to find out why a particular person chooses to be an atheist it s best to ask her many atheists feel that the idea of god as presented by the major religions is essentially self contradictory and that it is logically impossible that such a god could exist others are atheists through scepticism because they see no evidence that god exists but isn t it impossible to prove the non existence of something there are many counter examples to such a statement for example it is quite simple to prove that there does not exist a prime number larger than all other prime numbers of course this deals with well defined objects obeying well defined rules whether gods or universes are similarly well defined is a matter for debate however assuming for the moment that the existence of a god is not provably impossible there are still subtle reasons for assuming the non existence of god if we assume that something does not exist it is always possible to show that this assumption is invalid by finding a single counter example if on the other hand we assume that something does exist and if the thing in question is not provably impossible showing that the assumption is invalid may require an exhaustive search of all possible places where such a thing might be found to show that it isn t there such an exhaustive search is often impractical or impossible there is no such problem with largest primes because we can prove that they don t exist therefore it is generally accepted that we must assume things do not exist unless we have evidence that they do even theists follow this rule most of the time they don t believe in unicorns even though they can t conclusively prove that no unicorns exist anywhere to assume that god exists is to make an assumption which probably cannot be tested we cannot make an exhaustive search of everywhere god might be to prove that he doesn t exist anywhere so the sceptical atheist assumes by default that god does not exist since that is an assumption we can test those who profess strong atheism usually do not claim that no sort of god exists instead they generally restrict their claims so as to cover varieties of god described by followers of various religions so whilst it may be impossible to prove conclusively that no god exists it may be possible to prove that say a god as described by a particular religious book does not exist it may even be possible to prove that no god described by any present day religion exists in practice believing that no god described by any religion exists is very close to believing that no god exists however it is sufficiently different that counter arguments based on the impossibility of disproving every kind of god are not really applicable but what if god is essentially non detectable if god interacts with our universe in any way the effects of his interaction must be measurable hence his interaction with our universe must be detectable if god is essentially non detectable it must therefore be the case that he does not interact with our universe in any way many atheists would argue that if god does not interact with our universe at all it is of no importance whether he exists or not if the bible is to be believed god was easily detectable by the israelites surely he should still be detectable today note that i am not demanding that god interact in a scientifically verifiable physical way it must surely be possible to perceive some effect caused by his presence though otherwise how can i distinguish him from all the other things that don t exist ok you may think there s a philosophical justification for atheism but isn t it still a religious belief one of the most common pastimes in philosophical discussion is the redefinition game the cynical view of this game is as follows person a begins by making a contentious statement when person b points out that it can t be true person a gradually re defines the words he used in the statement until he arrives at something person b is prepared to accept he then records the statement along with the fact that person b has agreed to it and continues eventually a uses the statement as an agreed fact but uses his original definitions of all the words in it rather than the obscure redefinitions originally needed to get b to agree to it rather than be seen to be apparently inconsistent b will tend to play along the point of this digression is that the answer to the question isn t atheism a religious belief depends crucially upon what is meant by religious religion is generally characterized by belief in a superhuman controlling power especially in some sort of god and by faith and worship it s worth pointing out in passing that some varieties of buddhism are not religion according to such a definition atheism is certainly not a belief in any sort of superhuman power nor is it categorized by worship in any meaningful sense widening the definition of religious to encompass atheism tends to result in many other aspects of human behaviour suddenly becoming classed as religious as well such as science politics and watching tv ok so it s not a religion but surely belief in atheism or science is still just an act of faith like religion is firstly it s not entirely clear that sceptical atheism is something one actually believes in secondly it is necessary to adopt a number of core beliefs or assumptions to make some sort of sense out of the sensory data we experience most atheists try to adopt as few core beliefs as possible and even those are subject to questioning if experience throws them into doubt science has a number of core assumptions for example it is generally assumed that the laws of physics are the same for all observers these are the sort of core assumptions atheists make if such basic ideas are called acts of faith then almost everything we know must be said to be based on acts of faith and the term loses its meaning faith is more often used to refer to complete certain belief in something according to such a definition atheism and science are certainly not acts of faith of course individual atheists or scientists can be as dogmatic as religious followers when claiming that something is certain this is not a general tendency however there are many atheists who would be reluctant to state with certainty that the universe exists faith is also used to refer to belief without supporting evidence or proof sceptical atheism certainly doesn t fit that definition as sceptical atheism has no beliefs strong atheism is closer but still doesn t really match as even the most dogmatic atheist will tend to refer to experimental data or the lack of it when asserting that god does not exist if atheism is not religious surely it s anti religious it is an unfortunate human tendency to label everyone as either for or against friend or enemy the truth is not so clear cut atheism is the position that runs logically counter to theism in that sense it can be said to be anti religion however when religious believers speak of atheists being anti religious they usually mean that the atheists have some sort of antipathy or hatred towards theists this categorization of atheists as hostile towards religion is quite unfair atheist attitudes towards theists in fact cover a broad spectrum most atheists take a live and let live attitude unless questioned they will not usually mention their atheism except perhaps to close friends of course this may be in part because atheism is not socially acceptable in many countries a few atheists are quite anti religious and may even try to convert others when possible historically such anti religious atheists have made little impact on society outside the eastern bloc countries to digress slightly the soviet union was originally dedicated to separation of church and state just like the usa soviet citizens were legally free to worship as they wished the institution of state atheism came about when stalin took control of the soviet union and tried to destroy the churches in order to gain complete power over the population some atheists are quite vocal about their beliefs but only where they see religion encroaching on matters which are not its business for example the government of the usa such individuals are usually concerned that church and state should remain separate but if you don t allow religion to have a say in the running of the state surely that s the same as state atheism the principle of the separation of church and state is that the state shall not legislate concerning matters of religious belief in particular it means not only that the state cannot promote one religion at the expense of another but also that it cannot promote any belief which is religious in nature religions can still have a say in discussion of purely secular matters for example religious believers have historically been responsible for encouraging many political reforms even today many organizations campaigning for an increase in spending on foreign aid are founded as religious campaigns so long as they campaign concerning secular matters and so long as they do not discriminate on religious grounds most atheists are quite happy to see them have their say what about prayer in schools if there s no god why do you care if people pray because people who do pray are voters and lawmakers and tend to do things that those who don t pray can t just ignore also christian prayer in schools is intimidating to non christians even if they are told that they need not join in the diversity of religious and non religious belief means that it is impossible to formulate a meaningful prayer that will be acceptable to all those present at any public event also non prayers tend to have friends and family who pray it is reasonable to care about friends and family wasting their time even without other motives you mentioned christians who campaign for increased foreign aid what about atheists why aren t there any atheist charities or hospitals don t atheists object to the religious charities there are many charities without religious purpose that atheists can contribute to some atheists contribute to religious charities as well for the sake of the practical good they do some atheists even do voluntary work for charities founded on a theistic basis most atheists seem to feel that atheism isn t worth shouting about in connection with charity to them atheism is just a simple obvious everyday matter and so is charity many feel that it s somewhat cheap not to say self righteous to use simple charity as an excuse to plug a particular set of religious beliefs to weak atheists building a hospital to say i do not believe in god is a rather strange idea it s rather like holding a party to say today is not my birthday why the fuss atheism is rarely evangelical you said atheism isn t anti religious but is it perhaps a backlash against one s upbringing a way of rebelling perhaps it is for some but many people have parents who do not attempt to force any religious or atheist ideas upon them and many of those people choose to call themselves atheists it s also doubtless the case that some religious people chose religion as a backlash against an atheist upbringing as a way of being different on the other hand many people choose religion as a way of conforming to the expectations of others on the whole we can t conclude much about whether atheism or religion are backlash or conformism although in general people have a tendency to go along with a group rather than act or think independently how do atheists differ from religious people they don t believe in god that s all there is to it atheists may listen to heavy metal backwards even or they may prefer a verdi requiem even if they know the words they may wear hawaiian shirts they may dress all in black they may even wear orange robes many buddhists lack a belief in any sort of god some atheists even carry a copy of the bible around for arguing against of course whoever you are the chances are you have met several atheists without realising it atheists are usually unexceptional in behaviour and appearance unexceptional but aren t atheists less moral than religious people that depends if you define morality as obedience to god then of course atheists are less moral as they don t obey any god but usually when one talks of morality one talks of what is acceptable right and unacceptable wrong behaviour within society humans are social animals and to be maximally successful they must co operate with each other this is a good enough reason to discourage most atheists from anti social or immoral behaviour purely for the purposes of self preservation many atheists behave in a moral or compassionate way simply because they feel a natural tendency to empathize with other humans so why do they care what happens to others they don t know they simply are that way naturally there are some people who behave immorally and try to use atheism to justify their actions however there are equally many people who behave immorally and then try to use religious beliefs to justify their actions for example here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance jesus christ came into the world to save sinners but for that very reason i was shown mercy so that in me jesus christ might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life now to the king eternal immortal invisible the only god be honor and glory forever and ever the above quote is from a statement made to the court on february th by jeffrey dahmer the notorious cannibal serial killer of milwaukee wisconsin it seems that for every atheist mass murderer there is a religious mass murderer but what of more trivial morality a survey conducted by the roper organization found that behavior deteriorated after born again experiences while only of respondents said they had driven intoxicated before being born again had done so after conversion similarly had used illegal drugs before conversion after two percent admitted to engaging in illicit sex before salvation after freethought today september p so it seems that at best religion does not have a monopoly on moral behaviour is there such a thing as atheist morality if you mean is there such a thing as morality for atheists then the answer is yes as explained above many atheists have ideas about morality which are at least as strong as those held by religious people if you mean does atheism have a characteristic moral code then the answer is no atheism by itself does not imply anything much about how a person will behave most atheists follow many of the same moral rules as theists but for different reasons atheists view morality as something created by humans according to the way humans feel the world ought to work rather than seeing it as a set of rules decreed by a supernatural being then aren t atheists just theists who are denying god a study by the freedom from religion foundation found that over of the atheists who responded became atheists because religion did not work for them they had found that religious beliefs were fundamentally incompatible with what they observed around them atheists are not unbelievers through ignorance or denial they are unbelievers through choice the vast majority of them have spent time studying one or more religions sometimes in very great depth they have made a careful and considered decision to reject religious beliefs this decision may of course be an inevitable consequence of that individual s personality for a naturally sceptical person the choice of atheism is often the only one that makes sense and hence the only choice that person can honestly make but don t atheists want to believe in god atheists live their lives as though there is nobody watching over them many of them have no desire to be watched over no matter how good natured the big brother figure might be some atheists would like to be able to believe in god but so what should one believe things merely because one wants them to be true the risks of such an approach should be obvious atheists often decide that wanting to believe something is not enough there must be evidence for the belief but of course atheists see no evidence for the existence of god they are unwilling in their souls to see many if not most atheists were previously religious as has been explained above the vast majority have seriously considered the possibility that god exists many atheists have spent time in prayer trying to reach god of course it is true that some atheists lack an open mind but assuming that all atheists are biased and insincere is offensive and closed minded comments such as of course god is there you just aren t looking properly are likely to be viewed as patronizing certainly if you wish to engage in philosophical debate with atheists it is vital that you give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they are being sincere if they say that they have searched for god if you are not willing to believe that they are basically telling the truth debate is futile isn t the whole of life completely pointless to an atheist many atheists live a purposeful life they decide what they think gives meaning to life and they pursue those goals they try to make their lives count not by wishing for eternal life but by having an influence on other people who will live on for example an atheist may dedicate his life to political reform in the hope of leaving his mark on history it is a natural human tendency to look for meaning or purpose in random events however it is by no means obvious that life is the sort of thing that has a meaning to put it another way not everything which looks like a question is actually a sensible thing to ask some atheists believe that asking what is the meaning of life is as silly as asking what is the meaning of a cup of coffee they believe that life has no purpose or meaning it just is so how do atheists find comfort in time of danger there are many ways of obtaining comfort from family friends or even pets or on a less spiritual level from food or drink or tv that may sound rather an empty and vulnerable way to face danger but so what should individuals believe in things because they are comforting or should they face reality no matter how harsh it might be in the end it s a decision for the individual concerned most atheists are unable to believe something they would not otherwise believe merely because it makes them feel comfortable they put truth before comfort and consider that if searching for truth sometimes makes them feel unhappy that s just hard luck don t atheists worry that they might suddenly be shown to be wrong the short answer is no do you many atheists have been atheists for years they have encountered many arguments and much supposed evidence for the existence of god but they have found all of it to be invalid or inconclusive thousands of years of religious belief haven t resulted in any good proof of the existence of god atheists therefore tend to feel that they are unlikely to be proved wrong in the immediate future and they stop worrying about it so why should theists question their beliefs don t the same arguments apply no because the beliefs being questioned are not similar weak atheism is the sceptical default position to take it asserts nothing strong atheism is a negative belief theism is a very strong positive belief atheists sometimes also argue that theists should question their beliefs because of the very real harm they can cause not just to the believers but to everyone else what sort of harm religion represents a huge financial and work burden on mankind it s not just a matter of religious believers wasting their money on church buildings think of all the time and effort spent building churches praying and so on imagine how that effort could be better spent many theists believe in miracle healing there have been plenty of instances of ill people being healed by a priest ceasing to take the medicines prescribed to them by doctors and dying as a result some theists have died because they have refused blood transfusions on religious grounds it is arguable that the catholic church s opposition to birth control and condoms in particular is increasing the problem of overpopulation in many third world countries and contributing to the spread of aids world wide religious believers have been known to murder their children rather than allow their children to become atheists or marry someone of a different religion those weren t real believers they just claimed to be believers as some sort of excuse what makes a real believer there are so many one true religions it s hard to tell look at christianity there are many competing groups all convinced that they are the only true christians sometimes they even fight and kill each other how is an atheist supposed to decide who s a real christian and who isn t when even the major christian churches like the catholic church and the church of england can t decide amongst themselves in the end most atheists take a pragmatic view and decide that anyone who calls himself a christian and uses christian belief or dogma to justify his actions should be considered a christian maybe some of those christians are just perverting christian teaching for their own ends but surely if the bible can be so readily used to support un christian acts it can t be much of a moral code if the bible is the word of god why couldn t he have made it less easy to misinterpret and how do you know that your beliefs aren t a perversion of what your god intended if there is no single unambiguous interpretation of the bible then why should an atheist take one interpretation over another just on your say so sorry but if someone claims that he believes in jesus and that he murdered others because jesus and the bible told him to do so we must call him a christian obviously those extreme sorts of beliefs should be questioned but since nobody has ever proved that god does not exist it must be very unlikely that more basic religious beliefs shared by all faiths are nonsense that does not hold because as was pointed out at the start of this dialogue positive assertions concerning the existence of entities are inherently much harder to disprove than negative ones nobody has ever proved that unicorns don t exist but that doesn t make it unlikely that they are myths it is therefore much more valid to hold a negative assertion by default than it is to hold a positive assertion by default of course weak atheists would argue that asserting nothing is better still well if atheism s so great why are there so many theists unfortunately the popularity of a belief has little to do with how correct it is or whether it works consider how many people believe in astrology graphology and other pseudo sciences many atheists feel that it is simply a human weakness to want to believe in gods certainly in many primitive human societies religion allows the people to deal with phenomena that they do not adequately understand of course there s more to religion than that in the industrialized world we find people believing in religious explanations of phenomena even when there are perfectly adequate natural explanations religion may have started as a means of attempting to explain the world but nowadays it serves other purposes as well but so many cultures have developed religions surely that must say something not really most religions are only superficially similar for example it s worth remembering that religions such as buddhism and taoism lack any sort of concept of god in the christian sense of course most religions are quick to denounce competing religions so it s rather odd to use one religion to try and justify another what about all the famous scientists and philosophers who have concluded that god exists for every scientist or philosopher who believes in a god there is one who does not besides as has already been pointed out the truth of a belief is not determined by how many people believe it also it is important to realize that atheists do not view famous scientists or philosophers in the same way that theists view their religious leaders a famous scientist is only human she may be an expert in some fields but when she talks about other matters her words carry no special weight many respected scientists have made themselves look foolish by speaking on subjects which lie outside their fields of expertise so are you really saying that widespread belief in religion indicates nothing not entirely it certainly indicates that the religion in question has properties which have helped it so spread so far the theory of memetics talks of memes sets of ideas which can propagate themselves between human minds by analogy with genes some atheists view religions as sets of particularly successful parasitic memes which spread by encouraging their hosts to convert others some memes avoid destruction by discouraging believers from questioning doctrine or by using peer pressure to keep one time believers from admitting that they were mistaken some religious memes even encourage their hosts to destroy hosts controlled by other memes of course in the memetic view there is no particular virtue associated with successful propagation of a meme religion is not a good thing because of the number of people who believe it any more than a disease is a good thing because of the number of people who have caught it even if religion is not entirely true at least it puts across important messages what are the fundamental messages of atheism there are many important ideas atheists promote the following are just a few of them don t be surprised to see ideas which are also present in some religions there is more to moral behaviour than mindlessly following rules be especially sceptical of positive claims if you want your life to have some sort of meaning it s up to you to find it search for what is true even if it makes you uncomfortable make the most of your life as it s probably the only one you ll have it s no good relying on some external power to change you you must change yourself just because something s popular doesn t mean it s good if you must assume something assume something it s easy to test don t believe things just because you want them to be true and finally and most importantly all beliefs should be open to question thanks for taking the time to read this article mathew for information about pgp send mail to pgpinfo mantis co uk
alt.atheism	re gospel dating in article mimsy umd edu mangoe cs umd edu charley wingate writes well john has a quite different not necessarily more elaborated theology there is some evidence that he must have known luke and that the content of q was known to him but not in a canonized form this is a new argument to me could you elaborate a little the argument goes as follows q oid quotes appear in john but not in the almost codified way they were in matthew or luke however they are considered to be similar enough to point to knowledge of q as such and not an entirely different source assuming that he knew luke would obviously put him after luke and would give evidence for the latter assumption i don t think this follows if you take the most traditional attributions then luke might have known john but john is an elder figure in either case we re talking spans of time here which are well within the range of lifetimes we are talking date of texts here not the age of the authors the usual explanation for the time order of mark matthew and luke does not consider their respective ages it says matthew has read the text of mark and luke that of matthew and probably that of mark as it is assumed that john knew the content of luke s text the evidence for that is not overwhelming admittedly earlier manuscripts of john have been discovered interesting where and which how are they dated how old are they unfortunately i haven t got the info at hand it was i think in the late s or early s and it was possibly as old as ce when they are from about why do they shed doubt on the order on putting john after the rest of the three i don t see your point it is exactly what james felder said they had no first hand knowledge of the events and it obvious that at least two of them used older texts as the base of their account and even the association of luke to paul or mark to peter are not generally accepted well a genuine letter of peter would be close enough wouldn t it sure an original together with id card of sender and receiver would be fine so what s that supposed to say am i missing something and i don t think a one step removed source is that bad if luke and mark and matthew learned their stories directly from diciples then i really cannot believe in the sort of big transformation from jesus to gospel that some people posit in news reports one generally gets no better information than this and if john is a diciple then there s nothing more to be said that john was a disciple is not generally accepted the style and language together with the theology are usually used as counterargument the argument that john was a disciple relies on the claim in the gospel of john itself is there any other evidence for it one step and one generation removed is bad even in our times compare that to reports of similar events in our century in almost illiterate societies not even to speak off that believers are not necessarily the best sources it is also obvious that mark has been edited how old are the oldest manuscripts to my knowledge which can be antiquated the oldest is quite after any of these estimates and it is not even complete the only clear editing is problem of the ending and it s basically a hopeless mess the oldest versions give a strong sense of incompleteness to the point where the shortest versions seem to break off in midsentence the most obvious solution is that at some point part of the text was lost the material from verse on is pretty clearly later and seems to represent a synopsys of the end of luke in other words one does not know what the original of mark did look like and arguments based on mark are pretty weak but how is that connected to a redating of john benedikt
alt.atheism	re university violating separation of church state dmn kepler unh edu until kings become philosophers or philosophers become kings writes recently ras have been ordered and none have resisted or cared about it apparently to post a religious flyer entitled the soul scroll thoughts on religion spirituality and matters of the soul on the inside of bathroom stall doors at my school the university of new hampshire it is some sort of newsletter assembled by a hall director somewhere on campus it poses a question about spirituality each issue and solicits responses to be included in the next issue it s all pretty vague i assume it s put out by a christian but they re very careful not to mention jesus or the bible i ve heard someone defend it saying well it doesn t support any one religion so what this is a state university and as a strong supporter of the separation of church and state i was enraged what can i do about this it sounds to me like it s just screaming out for parody give a copy to your friendly neighbourhood subgenius preacher with luck he ll run it through the mental mincer and hand you back an outrageously offensive and gut bustingly funny parody you can paste over the originals i can see it now the stool scroll thoughts on religion spirituality and matters of the colon you can use this text to wipe mathew
alt.atheism	re soc motss et al princeton axes matching funds for boy scouts in article n hy apr harder ccr p ida org n hy harder ccr p ida org bob mcgwier writes however i hate economic terrorism and political correctness worse than i hate this policy a more effective approach is to stop donating to any organizating that directly or indirectly supports gay rights issues until they end the boycott on funding of scouts can somebody reconcile the apparent contradiction between and rob strom strom watson ibm com ibm research saw mill river road p o box yorktown heights ny
alt.atheism	re a visit from the jehovah s witnesses in article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes didn t you say lucifer was created with a perfect nature yes define perfect then i think you are playing the usual game here make sweeping statements like omni holy or perfect and don t note that they mean exactly what they say and that says that you must not use this terms when it leads to contradictions i m not trying to play games here but i understand how it might seem that way especially when one is coming from a completely different point of view such as atheism take your foot out of your mouth i wondered about that already when i was a catholic christian the fact that the contradiction is unresolvable is one of the reasons why i am an atheist believe me i believed similar sentences for a long time but that shows the power of religion and not anything about its claims now god could have prevented lucifer s fall by taking away his ability to choose between moral alternatives worship god or worship himself but that would mean that god was in error to have make lucifer or any being with free will in the first place exactly god allows evil an evil if there ever was one now that s an opinion or at best a premise but from my point of view it is not a premise which is necessary true specifically that it is an evil to allow evil to occur it follows from a definition of evil as ordinarily used letting evil happen or allowing evil to take place in this place even causing evil is another evil but could you give a definition of free will especially in the presence of an omniscient being will is self determination in other words god created conscious beings who have the ability to choose between moral choices independently of god all will therefore is free will the omniscient attribute of god will know what the creatures will do even before the omnipotent has created them there is no choice left all is known the course of events is fixed not even for the omniscient itself to extend an argument by james tims if god is omniscient then clearly creating beings with free moral choice is a greater good than the emergence of ungodliness evil sin since he created them knowing the outcome in advance why is it the greater good to allow evil with the knowledge that it will happen why not make a unipolar system with the possibility of doing good or not doing good but that does not necessarily imply doing evil it is logically possible but your god has not done it i do not know that such is logically possible if god restrains a free being s choice to choose to do evil and simply do not good then can it be said that the being truly has a free moral choice and if good is defined as loving and obeying god and avoiding those behaviors which god prohibits then how can you say that one who is not good is not evil as well like i said i am not sure that doing not good without doing evil is logically possible and when i am not omnipotent how can i have free will you have said something about choices and the scenario gives them therefore we have what you define as free will imagine the following i can do good to other beings but i cannot harm them easily implemented by making everyone appreciate being the object of good deeds but don t make them long for them so they can not feel the absence of good as evil but whose case am i arguing it is conceivable so the omnipotent can do it or it would not be omnipotent if you want logically consistent as well you have to give up the pet idea of an omnipotent first deletion perhaps it is weak in a way if i were just speculating about the ubiquitous pink unicorns then there would be no basis for such speculation but this idea of god didn t just fall on me out of the blue or while reading science fiction or fantasy i know that some will disagree the bible describes a god who is omniscient and nevertheless created beings with free moral choice from which the definitional logic follows but that s not all there is to it there seems to be at least in my mind a certain amount of evidence which indicates that god exists and that the biblical description of him may be a fair one it is that evidence which bolsters the argument in my view that the bible describes an omniscient and omnipotent god destroys the credibility of the bible nothing less and a lot of people would be interested in evidence for a god unfortunately there can t be any with these definitions benedikt
alt.atheism	re political atheists arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee writes the motto originated in the star spangled banner tell me that this has something to do with atheists the motto on coins originated as a mccarthyite smear which equated atheism with communism and called both unamerican no it didn t the motto has been on various coins since the civil war it was just required to be on all currency in the s keith
alt.atheism	re an anecdote about islam in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes when they are victimized they are muslims when they victimize others they are not true muslims tm or no muslims at all quite annoying i don t understand the point of this petty sarcasm it is a basic principle of islam that if one is born muslim or one says i testify that there is no god but god and mohammad is a prophet of god that so long as one does not explicitly reject islam by word then one must be considered muslim by all muslims so the phenomenon you re attempting to make into a general rule or psychology is a direct odds with basic islamic principles if you want to attack islam you could do better than than to argue against something that islam explicitly contradicts it was no criticism of islam for a change it was a criticism of the arguments used namely whenever people you identify as muslims are the victims of the attacks of others they are used an argument for the bad situation of muslims but whenever deeds by muslim that victimize others are named they do not count as an argument because what these people did was not done as a true muslims no mention is made how muslims are the cause of a bad situation of another party double standards benedikt
alt.atheism	re political atheists reference line trimmed livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes there is a good deal more confusion here you started off with the assertion that there was some objective morality and as you admit here you finished up with a recursive definition murder is objectively immoral but eactly what is murder and what is not itself requires an appeal to morality yes now you have switch targets a little but only a little now you are asking what is the goal what do you mean by goal are you suggesting that there is some objective goal out there somewhere and we form our morals to achieve it well for example the goal of natural morality is the survival and propogation of the species another example of a moral system is presented within the declaration of independence which states that we should be guaranteed life liberty and the pursuit of happiness you see to have a moral system we must define the purpose of the system that is we shall be moral unto what end murder is certainly a violation of the golden rule and i thought i had defined murder as an intentional killing of a non murderer against his will and you responded to this by asking whether or not the execution of an innocent person under our system of capital punishment was a murder or not i fail to see what this has to do with anything i never claimed that our system of morality was an objective one i thought that was your very first claim that there was some kind of objective morality and that an example of that was that murder is wrong if you don t want to claim that any more that s fine well murder violates the golen rule which is certainly a pillar of most every moral system however i am not assuming that our current system and the manner of its implementation are objectively moral i think that it is a very good approximation but we can t be perfect and by the way you don t seem to understand the difference between arbitrary and objective if keith schneider defines murder to be this that and the other that s arbitrary jon livesey may still say well according to my personal system of morality all killing of humans against their will is murder and wrong and what the legal definition of murder may be in the usa kuweit saudi arabia or the prc may be matters not a whit to me well objective would assume a system based on clear and fundamental concepts while arbitary implies no clear line of reasoning keith
alt.atheism	re pompous ass kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes then why do people keep asking the same questions over and over because you rarely ever answer them nope i ve answered each question posed and most were answered multiple times keith
alt.atheism	re pompous ass livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes how long does it the motto have to stay around before it becomes the default where s the cutoff point i don t know where the exact cutoff is but it is at least after a few years and surely after years why does the notion of default not take into account changes in population makeup specifically which changes are you talking about are you arguing that the motto is interpreted as offensive by a larger portion of the population now than years ago keith
alt.atheism	re keith schneider stealth poster sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes to borrow from philosophy you don t truly understand the color red until you have seen it not true even if you have experienced the color red you still might have a different interpretation of it but you wouldn t know what red was and you certainly couldn t judge it subjectively and objectivity is not applicable since you are wanting to discuss the merits of red keith
alt.atheism	re keith schneider stealth poster arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee writes but if you were to discuss the merits of racism or its psycholgical benefits you would do well to have experienced it personally when you speak of experiencing religion you mean someone should believe in a religion that s right and this is pretty impossible right it would be ideal if we could believe for a while just to try out religion and only then determine which course of thought suits us best but again this is not possible not that religion warrants belief but the belief carries with it some psychological benefits there are also some psychological burdens too when you speak of experiencing racism do you mean that someone should believe in racism or that they should have racist things done to them for parallelism the former must be what you meant but it seems to be an odd usage of the phrase well if there were some psychological or other benefits gained from racism they could only be fully understood or judged by persons actually believing in racism of course the parallel happens to be a poor one but you originated it keith
alt.atheism	re political atheists bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes but you don t know that capital punishment is wrong so it isn t the same as shooting a better analogy would be that you continue to drive your car realizing that sooner or later someone is going to be killed in an automobile accident you know people get killed as a result of driving yet you continue to do it anyway uh uh you do not know that you will be the one to do the killing i m not sure i d drive a car if i had sufficient evidence to conclude that i would necessarily kill someone during my lifetime yes and everyone thinks as you do no one thinks that he is going to cause or be involved in a fatal accident but the likelihood is surprisingly high just because you are the man on the firing squad whose gun is shooting blanks does not mean that you are less guilty i don t know about jon but i say all taking of human life is murder and i say murder is wrong in all but one situation when it is the only action that will prevent another murder either of myself or another you mean that killing is wrong in all but one situtation and you should note that that situation will never occur there are always other options thank killing why don t you just say that all killing is wrong this is basically what you are saying i m getting a bit tired of your probabilistic arguments are you attempting to be condescending that the system usually works pretty well is small consolation to the poor innocent bastard getting the lethal injection is your personal value of human life based solely on a statistical approach you sound like an unswerving adherent to the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few so fuck the few but most people have found the risk to be acceptable you are probably much more likely to die in a plane crash or even using an electric blender than you are to be executed as an innocent i personally think that the risk is acceptable but in an ideal moral system no such risk is acceptable acceptable is the fudge factor necessary in such an approximation to the ideal keith
alt.atheism	re political atheists bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes i think that about or so people approve of the death penalty even realizing all of its shortcomings doesn t this make it reasonable or are you the sole judge of reasonability aside from revenge what merits do you find in capital punishment are we talking about me or the majority of the people that support it anyway i think that revenge or fairness is why most people are in favor of the punishment if a murderer is going to be punished people that think that he should get what he deserves most people wouldn t think it would be fair for the murderer to live while his victim died revenge petty and pathetic perhaps you think that it is petty and pathetic but your views are in the minority we have a local televised hot topic talk show that very recently did a segment on capital punishment each and every advocate of the use of this portion of our system of jurisprudence cited the main reason for supporting it that bastard deserved it true human compassion forgiveness and sympathy where are we required to have compassion forgiveness and sympathy if someone wrongs me i will take great lengths to make sure that his advantage is removed or a similar situation is forced upon him if someone kills another then we can apply the golden rule and kill this person in turn is not our entire moral system based on such a concept or are you stating that human life is sacred somehow and that it should never be violated this would sound like some sort of religious view i mean how reasonable is imprisonment really when you think about it sure the person could be released if found innocent but you still can t undo the imiprisonment that was served perhaps we shouldn t imprision people if we could watch them closely instead the cost would probably be similar especially if we just implanted some sort of electronic device would you rather be alive in prison or dead in the chair once a criminal has committed a murder his desires are irrelevant and you still have not answered my question if you are concerned about the death penalty due to the possibility of the execution of an innocent then why isn t this same concern shared with imprisonment shouldn t we by your logic administer as minimum as punishment as possible to avoid violating the liberty or happiness of an innocent person keith
alt.atheism	re political atheists bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes if i kill this person an innocent person convicted of murder then a murder would be committed but i would not be the murderer at least i wouldn t reasonably be considered a murderer with reasonable being introduced as a fudge factor necessary to account for the inability to be totally objective due to a lack of absolutely true information if society collective decides to carry the burden of executing it s citizens then it also carries the blame for their innocent blood each and every voter who casts a ballot in favor of capital punishment is in part guilty of the murder of each and every innocent victim of the system why are only those people in favor of the system to blame if society accepts such a system then each member of society is to blame when an innocent person gets executed those that are not in favor should work to convince others and most members of our society have accepted the blame they ve considered the risk to be acceptable similarly every person who drives must accept the blame for fatal traffic accidents this is something that is surely going to happen when so many people are driving it is all a question of what risk is acceptable it is much more likely that an innocent person will be killed driving than it is that one will be executed keith
alt.atheism	re don t more innocents die without the death penalty in article p psilink com p psilink com james f tims writes by maintaining classes d and e even in prison it seems as if we place more innocent people at a higher risk of an unjust death than we would if the state executed classes d and e with an occasional error i answer from the position that we would indeed place these people in prison for life that depends not only on their predisposition towards murder but also in their success rate at escape and therefore their ability to commit the same crimes again in other words if lifetime imprisonment doesn t work perhaps it s not because we re not executing these people but because we re not being careful enough about how we lock them up bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re ancient islamic rituals in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes i propose that these two trends greater level of general depression in society and other psychological problems and greater sexual promiscuity are linked with the latter being a prime cause of the former i cannot provide any evidence beyond this at this stage but the whole thesis seems very reasonable to me and i request that people ponder upon it damn right you can t provide any evidence for it rarely are any widespread social phenomenon reducible to such a simple premise if they were psychology would be a hard science with roughly the same mathematical soundness as physics your premise may well be right it is much more likely however that it reflects your socialization and religious background as well as your need to validate your religious beliefs were i to pretend to have all the answers and i don t i would say that the xenophobia guilt and intolerance brought about by adherence to fundamentalist religions play just as large a role in depressing the members of our society your mileage obviously varies bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re political atheists in article apr blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee writes in article pj bs d j fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes i would say that one innocent person killed is in some sense as bad as many we certainly feel that way when we punish someone for a single murder now if we reform system x by reducing the number of deaths by one we produce system xx i d say we should not go back to system x even though by doing so we would re introduce only a single extra death bob seems to think that one is as bad as many in a sense somewhat stronger than the one you indicate yes i do my argument is that the sole purpose of the death penalty is to kill people that is it s primary and i would argue only purpose to continue to kill people by a practice that has almost no utility especially when you know you will be killing innocents is unconscionable at the very least the existence of the prison system and our transportation system are based on their merits to society not their detriments we are willing to accept a few lost innocent lives because there is an overwhelming benefit to the continued existence of these systems one has to stretch the evidence and the arguments to make the same claim for capital punishment just in case i wasn t clear again we maintain a capital punsihment system that kills innocent people and provides us with no net positive gain why were you to pin me in a corner and ask i would have to respond that i don t belief the state should have the right to take life at all but i won t open that debate as it seems others are tiring of this thread on a a anyway bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re there must be a creator maybe in article ba e drporter suvm syr edu drporter suvm syr edu brad porter writes science is wonderful at answering most of our questions i m not the type to question scientific findings very often but personally i find the theory of evolution to be unfathomable could humans a highly evolved complex organism that thinks learns and develops truly be an organism that resulted from random genetic mutations and natural selection stuff deleted computers are an excellent example of evolution without a creator we did not create computers we did not create the sand that goes into the silicon that goes into the integrated circuits that go into processor board we took these things and put them together in an interesting way just like plants create oxygen using light through photosynthesis it s a much bigger leap to talk about something that created everything from nothing i find it unfathomable to resort to believing in a creator when a much simpler alternative exists we simply are incapable of understanding our beginnings if there even were beginnings at all and that s ok with me the present keeps me perfectly busy jim halat
alt.atheism	re americans and evolution in article j l rpi edu johnsd jec its rpi edu dan johnson writes in article io maine maine edu io maine maine edu writes dan johnson you don t know me but take this hand anyway bravo for go ds beautiful simply beautiful jim halat
alt.atheism	re speculations in article w rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew mathew mantis co uk writes nanci ann miller nm w andrew cmu edu writes if this god is truly omnipotent as you folks like to claim then why can t he terminate eternity for the same reason he can t flibble glop ork groink the thing you are demanding that he must be able to do has no meaning in its own terms this is a classic example of excessive faith in reason the fact that we have trouble talking about something doesn t imply that it is impossible it simply implies that it is hard to talk about there is a very good chance that god can flibble glop ork groink charlie wingate can flibble glop ork groink and he isn t even god doug graham dgraham bnr ca my opinions are my own
alt.atheism	re political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes much though it might be fun to debate capital punishment itself this is probably the wrong group for it the only relevance here is that you don t seem to be able to tell us what capital punishment actually is and when it is murder that is when you tell us murder is wrong you are using a term you have not yet defined well i ve said that when an innocent person has been executed this is objectively a murder however who is at blame is another question it seems that the entire society that sanctions any sorts of executions realizing the risks is to blame there is a probability of killing an innocent person by shooting at random into the air and there is a probability of killing an innocent person when the state administers a system of capital punishment so when you do either you know that they actions you are taking will sooner or later result in the killing of an innocent person yes but there is also a probablity that you will kill someone doing any raondom activity presumably you had not isolated yourself totally from the rest of society because of this and driving will kill people as will airlines but people continue to do both driving and flying are not punishments inflicted on unwilling prisoners by courts they are risks that we take upon ourselves willingly and i argue that our law system is a similar risk perhaps an innocent person will be punished someday but we work to prevent this in fact many criminals go free as a result of our trying to prevent punishment of innocents if our own driving kills someone else then sure there is a moral issue i know at least one person who was involved in a fatal accident and they felt vey guilty afterwards but such accidents are to be totally expected given the numner of vehicals on the road again the blame is on society no i m not this is what you said you were saying that if there were such a false witness that resulted in an innocent person being convicted and killed it would still be the fault of the state since it did the actual killing no i just commented that the state does the killing it does not depend on there being false witnesses how could it the state does the killing even in the case of sincere mistakes yes but the state is not at fault in such a case the state can only do so much to prevent false witnesses it is possible so what are you trying to say that capital punishment is always murder because of the possibilty of human error invalidating the system i m saying capital punishment is murder period not because of this that and the other but because it involves taking human life that s my definition of murder i make no appeals to dictionaries or to objective morals okay so this is what you call murder but the question is whether or not all such murders are wrong are you saying that all taking of human life is wrong no matter what the circumstances if we as a society decide to murder someone then we should say that and lists our reasons for doing so and live with the moral consequences we should not play word games and pretend that murder isn t murder and that s my opinion about how society ought to be run but this is basically how it works society accepts the risk that an innocent person will be murdered by execution and every member of society shares this blame and most people s definitions of murder include some sort of malicious intent which is not involved in an execution is it but we were trying to discuss an objective moral system or at least its possibilty what ramifications does your personal system have on an objective one no we were not discussing an objective moral system i was showing you that you didn t have one because for one thing you were incapable of defining the terms in it for example murder murder violates the golden rule executions do not because by allowing it at all society implicitly accepts the consequences no matter who the innocent victim is we re not talking about reading minds we are just talking about knowing the truth yes we can never be absolutely certain that we have the truth but the court systems work on a principle of knowing the truth beyond a reasonable doubt sorry but you simply are not quoting yourself accurately here is what you said and since we are looking totally objectively at this case then we know what people are thinking when they are voting to execute the person or not if the intent is malicious and unfair then the execution would be murder what you are doing now is to slide into another claim which is quite different the jury being persuaded beyond a serious doubt is not the same as us knowing what is in their minds beyond a serious doubt reading the minds of the jury would certainly tell whether or not a conviction was moral or not but in an objective system only the absolute truth matters and the jury system is one method to approximate such a truth that is twelve members must be convinced of a truth moreover a jury which comes from a sufficiently prejudiced background may allow itself to be persuaded beyond a serious doubt on evidence that you and i would laugh at but then if we read the minds of these people we would know that the conviction was unfair but would it be perfectly fair if we could read minds if we assume that it would be fair if we knew the absolute truth why is it so much less fair in your opinion if we only have a good approximation of the absolute truth it s not a question of fairness your claim which i have quoted above is a claim about whether we can know it was fair so as to be able to distinguish capital punishnment from murder yes while we could objectively determine the difference if we knew all possible information we can t always determine the difference in our flawed system i think that our system is almost as good as possible but it still isn t objectively perfect you see it doesn t matter if we know it is fair or not objectively it is either fair or it is not now there s a huge difference if we can read minds we can know and if we cannot read minds we can know nothing the difference is not in degree of fairness but in what we can know but what we know has no effect on an objective system i think it is possible to produce a fairly objective system if we are clear on which goals it is supposed to promote i m not going to waste my time trying to devise a system that i am pretty sure does not exist why are you so sure i simply want people to confront reality my reality remember why is your reality important in this case the reality is that ideal theories apart we can never know even after the fact about the fairness of the justice system for every innocent person released from death row there may have been a dozen innocent people executed or a hundred or none at all we simply don t know but we can assume that the system is fairly decent at least most likely and you realize that the correctness of our system says nothing about a totally ideal and objective system now what are we going to do on the one hand we can pretend that we have an ideal theory and that we can know things we can never know and the justie system is fair and that we can wave a magic wand and make certain types of killing not murder and go on our way well we can have an ideal system but the working system can not be ideal we can only hope to create a system that is as close an approximation to the ideal system as possible on the other hand we can recognize that all justice has a small we hope probability of punishing the innocent and that in the end we do bear moral responsibility even for the probabilistic consequences of the systems we set up and then say well here we go murdering again maybe some of us will even say gee i wonder if all this is strictly necessary yes we all bear the responsibility most people seem willing to do this i think that the second is preferable in that if requires people to face the moral consequences of what we do as a society instead of sheltering ourselves from them by magic ceremonies and word games we must realize the consequences of all our actions why do you keep separating the justice system from the pack and lest i forget i also don t think we have an objective moral system and i believe i only have to take that idea seriously when someone presents evidence of it i don t think our country has an objective system but i think such an objective system can exist in theory without omniscience an objective system is not possible in practice keith
alt.atheism	re political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes now along comes mr keith schneider and says here is an objective moral system and then i start to ask him about the definitions that this objective system depends on and predictably the whole thing falls apart it only falls apart if you attempt to apply it this doesn t mean that an objective system can t exist it just means that one cannot be implemented keith
alt.atheism	re university violating separation of church state in article aa kepler unh edu dmn kepler unh edu until kings become philosophers or philosophers become kings writes recently ras have been ordered and none have resisted or cared about it apparently to post a religious flyer entitled the soul scroll thoughts on religion spirituality and matters of the soul on the inside of bathroom stall doors at my school the university of new hampshire it is some sort of newsletter assembled by a hall director somewhere on campus most of post deleted please respond as soon as possible i d like these religious postings to stop now thanks dana there is an easy way out post the flyers on the stall doors but add at the bottom in nice large capitals emergency toilet paper robert mellish fog ic uk email r mellish ic ac uk net rm sg cc ic ac uk irc hobnob and also the mrs joyful prize for rafia work
alt.atheism	re usatoday ad family values in article c rzz j unix portal com danb shell portal com dan e babcock writes there was a funny ad in usatoday from american family association i ll post a few choice parts for your enjoyment all emphases is in the ad i m not adding anything all the typos are mine dan s article deleted i found the same add in our local sunday newspaper the add was placed in the cartoon section the perfect place for it y k
alt.atheism	re islamic authority over women in article apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu s n mozumder writes my claim is that a person that committs a crime doesn t believe in god for the moment that the crime is committed at least whether they are originally believers or not to believe is to do good your statistics indicate people that have declared atheism and doubtless when an atheist does an act of charity they temporarily become a baptist jon
alt.atheism	re ancient islamic rituals in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes i propose that these two trends greater level of general depression in society and other psychological problems and greater sexual promiscuity are linked with the latter being a prime cause of the former i cannot provide any evidence beyond this at this stage but the whole thesis seems very reasonable to me and i request that people ponder upon it i pondered it for all of ten seconds when i realised that since we don t have any reliable statistics for sexual promiscuity and since the whole issue of depression isn t at all well defined for earlier centuries you are probably talking crap of course you could pull a mozumder on us and say that people who are having sex outside marriage are defined to be depressed i can t say i d ever noticed myself jon
alt.atheism	re soc motss et al princeton axes matching funds for boy scouts in article apr cbnewsl cb att com stank cbnewsl cb att com stan krieger writes now can we please use rec scouting for the purpose for which it was established clearly we netnews voters decided that we did not want to provide a scouting newsgroup to give fringe groups a forum for their anti societal political views ok this is the only thing i will comment on from stan at this time part of this forum we call rec scouting is for policy discussions and related topics this is a policy discussion and involves related topics this is not a fringe group discussion obviously it engenders strong feelings from all sides of the issues at hand wether a particular view is anti societal or not is your opinion and yours alone don t try to make it seem otherwise if you do not wish to engage in this discussion use a kill file if you wish to continue in this discussion please do so knowing full well the implications that apply i know for myself that i plan on continuing with the discussion when i have the wish to have input i for one am tired of people trying to say that this is not a matter significant for this group it is and quite so especially for those of us who feel the impact more closely dominick v zurlo if the world s an www oyster why am i eagle scout allergic to mollusks blacklisted
alt.atheism	re political atheists mathew mathew mantis co uk writes as for rape surely there the burden of guilt is solely on the rapist not so if you are thrown into a cage with a tiger and get mauled do you blame the tiger keith
alt.atheism	re political atheists mathew mathew mantis co uk writes perhaps we shouldn t imprision people if we could watch them closely instead the cost would probably be similar especially if we just implanted some sort of electronic device why wait until they commit the crime why not implant such devices in potential criminals like communists and atheists sorry i don t follow your reasoning you are proposing to punish people before they commit a crime what justification do you have for this keith
alt.atheism	re enviroleague a new alternative to scouting for those unacceptable to bsa for reasons of religious or sexual preference from boyd r critz iii compuserve com subject enviroleague birth announcement on march from earth forum compuserve information service formal announcement sm enviroleague a new youth movement enviroleague was recently born according to its founder boyd r critz iii cis id of peoria illinois enviroleague exists for the education of youth both male and female in matters concerning their values related to and responsibility for our environment incorporated as an illinois not for profit corporation its articles and initial applications for a service mark have now been filed according to critz its draft bylaws contain the following statement of mission and objectives mission it is the mission of enviroleague and its adult members to foster and implement the improved education of young people in the need to conduct their lives as stewards of the earth to leave the earth in a better condition than they found it and to otherwise act as responsible moral and ethical users of their environment to pursue the accomplishment of this mission enviroleague shall seek to serve as a catalyst focusing in common cause the separate efforts of all groups desiring the preservation improvement and responsible use of the environment in which we must all live objectives in pursuit of the mission of enviroleague its primary objectives shall be to establish a movement involving as many environmentally concerned organizations as possible said movement having as its primary focus the education and participatory involvement of young people in appropriate areas of environmental concern to develop and provide to such organizations and their branches a full complement of program materials for their use including suitable uniforms insignia and other badges written ideas syllabi and information literature and other items as shall seem appropriate and desirable to serve as a clearing house for the exchange of program ideas materials and information among said organizations and to assist environmentally concerned organizations to recruit and train the necessary adult leadership for their youth programs enviroleague will operate through three program divisions serving youth in the elementary middle and high school grades respectively service shall be through formation of enviroleague teams either by enviroleague itself or by environmentally conscious organizations or their local branches wishing a charter to use programs developed by enviroleague enviroleague as it develops will be controlled by the actual adult leaders of each local team and will have no nationally imposed obstacles to membership or adult leadership status not based upon relevant improper conduct organizations accepting a charter may however impose certain additional standards for their own use of the program material should such organizations do so enviroleague will commit itself to forming as soon as possible new nearby teams having no such restrictions particularly as to youth membership enviroleague will operate on the principle that youth will have much to contribute to developing its programs thus the top youth leaders of its teams for middle and high school youth may become involved in governing any local administrative groups and those for its high school youth may be involved in similar functions at the national level program materials are in development at this time copies of the draft portions of the mentor s manual manual for adult leadership will be in the earth forum library these files will be updated as development takes place compuserve is particularly proud that enviroleague s founder chose this electronic medium to make the first public announcement of its formation this announcement is being made simultaneously in both the outdoor and earth forums the electronic home of enviroleague is in compuserve s earth forum go earth message and library areas both named enviroleague subsequently enviroleague s initial governance council has held its first meeting boyd critz was elected as the first enviroleague chief guardian equivalent to chairman of the board or ceo he can be reached at home in case of real need also mail can be addressed to enviroleague p o box peoria il those interested in starting an enviroleague team might just establish contact to receive a diskette ibm dos ascii with initial information cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
alt.atheism	idle questions for fellow atheists i wonder how many atheists out there care to speculate on the face of the world if atheists were the majority rather than the minority group of the population it is rather a ridiculous question in some ways i know but my newsreader is down so i am not getting any new postings for a bit so i figure i might as well post something new myself also how many atheists out there would actually take the stance and accor a higher value to their way of thinking over the theistic way of thinking the typical selfish argument would be that both lines of thinking evolved from the same inherent motivation so one is not intrinsically different from the other qualitatively but then again a measuring stick must be drawn somewhere and if we cannot assign value to a system of beliefs at its core than the only other alternative is to apply it to its periphery ie how it expresses its own selfishness idle thoughts adam adam john cooper verily often have i laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had no claws
alt.atheism	re americans and evolution in article apr dcs warwick ac uk simon dcs warwick ac uk simon clippingdale writes deleted over on alt atheism we tend to recognise two categories of atheism function format due to mathew mantis co uk i think i weak not believe gods ii strong believe not gods deleted i am a strong atheist and i must quibble with your assertion that the strong position requires faith i believe that no god s as commonly described by theists exist this belief is merely an opinion formed on the basis of observation including a certain amount of introspection i fully accept that i could be wrong and will be swayed by suitably convincing evidence thus while i believe that no gods exist this does not imply faith on my part that it is so let me first say that to believe that no gods exist is in fact different than not believing in a god or gods i will argue that your latter statement i believe that no gods exist does rest upon faith that is if you are making a positive statement that no gods exist strong atheism rather than merely saying i don t know and therefore don t believe in them and don t not believe in then weak atheism once again to not believe in god is different than saying i believe that god does not exist i still maintain the position even after reading the faqs that strong atheism requires faith but first let me say the following we might have a language problem here in regards to faith and existence i as a christian maintain that god does not exist to exist means to have being in space and time god does not have being god is being kierkegaard once said that god does not exist he is eternal with this said i feel it s rather pointless to debate the so called existence of god and that is not what i m doing here i believe that god is the source and ground of being when you say that god does not exist i also accept this statement but we obviously mean two different things by it however in what follows i will use the phrase the existence of god in it s usual sense and this is the sense that i think you are using it i would like a clarification upon what you mean by the existence of god we also might differ upon what it means to have faith here is what webster says faith a allegiance to duty or a person loyalty b fidelity to one s promises sincerity of intentions a belief and trust in and loyalty to god belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b firm belief in something for which there is no proof complete trust something that is believed esp with strong conviction esp a system of religious beliefs syn see belief one can never prove that god does or does not exist when you say that you believe god does not exist and that this is an opinion based upon observation i will have to ask what observtions are you refering to there are no observations pro or con that are valid here in establishing a positive belief all observations can only point you in a direction a direction that we might even be predisposed to by predisposed i mean for example people whoes partents believe in god also tend to to actually draw a conclusion about the existence or non existence of god requires a leap and you have made this leap when you actively say i believe that god does does not exist personally i think that both statements are misguided arguing over the existence of god is precisely the wrong way to find him and yes i use him because a personal god is the only viable concept imo if a person wants to use she go ahead of course god is neither he nor she but we have no choice but to anthropomorphise if you want me to explain myself further i ll be glad to and please if someone does not agree with me even if they violently disagree it s in no ones advantage to start name calling if a person thinks i ve misunderstood something in the faqs or if they they think i have not read them well enough just point out to me the error of my ways and i correct the situation i m interested in a polite and well thought out discussion cheers simon simon clippingdale simon dcs warwick ac uk department of computer science tel university of warwick fax coventry cv al u k bob singleton bobs thnext mit edu
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by atheism snm ultb isc rit edu s n mozumder writes more horrible deaths resulted from atheism than anything else there are definitely quite a few horrible deaths as the result of both atheists and theists i m sure bobby can list quite a few for the atheist side but fails to recognize that the theists are equally proficient at genocide perhaps since i m a bit weak on history somone here would like to give a list of wars caused led by theists i can think of a few hitler claimed to be a christian for example but a more complete list would probably be more effective in showing bobby just how absurd his statement is peace on a side note i notice you always sign your posts peace perhaps you should take your own advice and leave the atheists in peace with their beliefs bobby mozumder nanci if you know and are sure of the author of this quote please send me email nm w andrew cmu edu lying to ourselves is more deeply ingrained than lying to others
alt.atheism	re dear mr theist west next cville wam umd edu stilgar writes means to me the full quote michael crichton jurrasic park was something like the earth has existed quite contently for billions of years we have been here but for the blink of an eye and if we were gone tomorrow the earth would not miss us i remember this quote to keep myself humble when thinking that we have progressed so far or that we are masters of this planet cool quote the earth doesn t need saving it s existed quite happily with out us we are the ones who need saving better watch it the theists will jump on you for that brian west this is not a sig file to the earth we have been this is not a sig file here but for the blink of an ok so it s a sig file eye if we were gone tomorrow posted by west wam umd edu we would not be missed who doesn t care who knows it jurassic park diclaimer i said this i meant this nobody made me do it nanci if you know and are sure of the author of this quote please send me email nm w andrew cmu edu lying to ourselves is more deeply ingrained than lying to others
alt.atheism	re political atheists my turn to jump in in article pi h innq gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes reference line trimmed livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes there is a good deal more confusion here you started off with the assertion that there was some objective morality and as you admit here you finished up with a recursive definition murder is objectively immoral but eactly what is murder and what is not itself requires an appeal to morality i think you mean circular not recursive but that is semantics recursiveness has no problems it is just horribly inefficient just ask any assembly programmer yes now you have switch targets a little but only a little now you are asking what is the goal what do you mean by goal are you suggesting that there is some objective goal out there somewhere and we form our morals to achieve it well for example the goal of natural morality is the survival and propogation of the species another example of a moral system is presented within the declaration of independence which states that we should be guaranteed life liberty and the pursuit of happiness you see to have a moral system we must define the purpose of the system that is we shall be moral unto what end the oft quoted line that says people should be guaranteed life liberty and the pursuit of happiness as inalienable rights is a complete lie and deception as the very authors of that line were in the process of proving liberty is never free it is always purchased at some cost almost always at the cost to another whos liberty is more inalienable similarly for right of life when one person must die if he is to save another or even a group of others whos life is more inalienable that leads into the classic question of the value of the death penalty especially for serial killers whos life and liberty is more valuable the serial killer or the victim according to that beautiful line those two rights should be completely inviolate that is noone should be able to remove them this includes government admittedly the serial killer has restricted some people s life and or liberty but is not his own life liberty inviolate also according to the declaration of independence it is murder is certainly a violation of the golden rule and i thought i had defined murder as an intentional killing of a non murderer against his will oooh i like that it means that killing an infant is not murder because it cannot be against its will reason an infant has no will as such similarly for people who are brain dead easier to see in a coma etc also under current law accidental killing is still murder how will you include that and you responded to this by asking whether or not the execution of an innocent person under our system of capital punishment was a murder or not i fail to see what this has to do with anything i never claimed that our system of morality was an objective one i thought that was your very first claim that there was some kind of objective morality and that an example of that was that murder is wrong if you don t want to claim that any more that s fine the only real golden rule in life is he who has the gold makes the rules i e might makes right that is survival now what is wrong with that well murder violates the golen rule which is certainly a pillar of most every moral system however i am not assuming that our current system and the manner of its implementation are objectively moral i think that it is a very good approximation but we can t be perfect if you mean the golden rule as i stated yes almost every system as implemented has used that in reality sorry i don t deal as much in fiction as i do in reality and by the way you don t seem to understand the difference between arbitrary and objective if keith schneider defines murder to be this that and the other that s arbitrary jon livesey may still say well according to my personal system of morality all killing of humans against their will is murder and wrong and what the legal definition of murder may be in the usa kuweit saudi arabia or the prc may be matters not a whit to me welcome to ozland what is not arbitrary if you can find some part of society some societal rules morals etc that are not arbitrary please tell me i don t think there are any well objective would assume a system based on clear and fundamental concepts while arbitary implies no clear line of reasoning keith sounds like euphemisms to me the difference seems to be that objective is some reasoning that i like while arbitrary is some reasoning that i don t like or don t understand m
alt.atheism	re radical agnostic not the one and only jcopelan nyx cs du edu wrote in article dl m bgsu edu dl andy bgsu edu pixie writes first post i ve seen from the ol bug zoo bgsu there is no means that i can possibly think of to prove beyond doubt that a god does not exist but if anyone has one by all means tell me what it is therefore lacking this ability of absolute proof being an atheist becomes an act of faith in and of itself and this i cannot accept i accept nothing on blind faith invisible pink flying unicorns need i say more there is also the question of what is meant by atheist a familiar example of the importance of the meaning of the word is as follows the two statements following are consistent i do not believe that you are wearing lilac socks i do not believe that you are are not wearing lilac socks the two statements following are not consistent i do believe that you are wearing lilac socks i do believe that you are are not wearing lilac socks statements and require no faith they make no presumptions about the nature of reality statements and require belief many atheists myself included take the following position i do not believe that there is a god i do not believe that there is not a god that is i harbor no beliefs at all there is no good evidence for god existing or not some folks call this agnosticism it does not suffer from blind faith at all i think of it as don t worry be happy
alt.atheism	so what is maddi as i was created in the image of gaea therefore i must be the pinnacle of creation she which creates she which births she which continues or to cut all the religious crap i m a woman thanks and it s sexism that started me on the road to atheism maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com centigram communications corp san jose california kids please don t try this at home remember i post professionally
alt.atheism	re the wrong and the right in article e trmetu bitnet e trmetu bitnet writes hi i m a turkish guy who had tried atheism satenism and buddism at some instant s of hislife finally i decided on islambecause of many facts which i intend to write here from my point of view you atheists are people who has dropped to a deep dark well and thinking the only reality is the dusty walls of the well but if you had looked a little bit upward you would see the blue skies you dsee t he truth but you close your eyes allah is the only god and mohammed is his mess ager now let s generate some entropy in means of theology and thermodynamics w hat s your point of view to the problem of the first kiss that is the first spark which was generated for the formation of the universe has it formed by i tself you are bothering yourselves with the big bang but where is the first spa rk please think a bit think and return to the only reality of the universe isla m uh oh this looks a bit too much like bobby s atheism is false stuff are we really going to have to go through this again maybe the universe is cyclical brendan dunn
alt.atheism	re political atheists bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes and in the us even that argument doesn t stand it costs far more to execute a criminal in this country than it does to feed clothe and shelter them for the remainder of their natural life some people believe this is a fault of our judicial system i find it to be one of it s greatest virtues i assume that you are talking about the appeals processes etc well it should be noted that people who are imprisoned for life will also tend to appeal though not quite as much in the final hours anyway economics is not a very good reason to either favor or oppose the punishment keith
alt.atheism	re americans and evolution in article apr skyblu ccit arizona edu lippard skyblu ccit arizona edu james j lippard writes in article mar juliet caltech edu lmh juliet caltech edu henling lawrence m writes atheism greek a not theos god belief that there is no god agnosticism greek a not gnostein know belief that it is not possible to determine if there is a god no agnosticism as you have here defined it is a positive belief a belief that it is not possible to determine the existence of any gods that s a belief i m inclined to reject you have also defined atheism here as a positive belief that there is no god a fairly large number of atheists on alt atheism reject this definition instead holding that atheism is simply the absence of belief in a god michael martin in atheism a philosophical justification distinguishes strong atheism my mistake i will have to get a newer dictionary and read the follow up line larry henling lmh shakes caltech edu
alt.atheism	re political atheists reference line trimmed ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu scott d sauyet writes first i ll make the assumption that you agree that a murderer is one who has commited murder well i d say that a murderer is one who intentionally committed a murder for instance if you put a bullet into a gun that was thought to contain blanks and someone was killed with such a gun the person who actually performed the action isn t the murderer but i guess this is actually made clear in the below definition i d be interested to see a more reasonable definition what do you mean by reasonable otherwise your inductive definition doesn t bottom out your definition in essence is that murder is the intentional killing of someone who has not commited murder against his will expanding the second occurence of murder in the above we see that yes it is bad to include the word being defined in the definition but even though the series is recursively infinite i think the meaning can still be deduced i assume you can see the problem here to do a correct inductive definition you must define something in terms of a simpler case and you must have one or several bottoming out cases for instance we can define the factorial function the function which assigns to a positive integer the product of the positive integers less than or equal to it on the positive integers inductively as follows math lesson deleted okay let s look at this situation suppose there is a longstanding feud between two families which claim that the other committed some travesty in the distant past each time a member of the one family kills a member of the other the other family thinks that it is justified in killing a that member of the first family now let s suppose that this sequence has occurred an infinite number of times or if you don t like dealing with infinities suppose that one member of the family goes back into time and essentially begins the whole thing that is there is a never ending loop of slayings based on some non existent travesty how do you resolve this well they are all murders now i suppose that this isn t totally applicable to your problem but it still is possible to reduce an uninduced system and in any case the nested murderer in the definition of murder cannot be infintely recursive given the finite existence of humanity and a murder cannot be committed without a killing involved so the first person to intentionally cause someone to get killed is necessarily a murderer is this enough of an induction to solve the apparently unreducable definition see in a totally objective system where all the information is available such a nested definition isn t really a problem keith
alt.atheism	re political atheists in article pigidinnsot gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes mathew mathew mantis co uk writes as for rape surely there the burden of guilt is solely on the rapist not so if you are thrown into a cage with a tiger and get mauled do you blame the tiger a human has greater control over his her actions than a predominately instictive tiger a proper analogy would be if you are thrown into a cage with a person and get mauled do you blame that person yes providing that that person was in a responsible frame of mind eg not clinicaly insane on pcb s etc one thing that relates is among navy men that get tatoos that say mom because of the love of their mom it makes for more virile men bobby mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu april the one true muslim left in the world
alt.atheism	re idle questions for fellow atheists in article apr mac cc macalstr edu acooper mac cc macalstr edu writes i wonder how many atheists out there care to speculate on the face of the world if atheists were the majority rather than the minority group of the population probably we would have much the same problems with only a slight shift in emphasis weekends might not be so inviolate more common to work days a week in a business and instead of american atheists we would have similar religious organizations a persons religious belief seems more as a crutch and justification for actions than a guide to determine actions of course people would have to come up with more fascinating rationalizations for their actions but that could be fun to watch it seems to me that for most people religion in america doesn t matter that much you have extreemists on both ends but a large majority don t make too much of an issue about it as long as you don t now admittedly i have never had to suffer the bible belt but i am just north of it and see the fringes and the reasonable people in most things tend to be reasonable in religion as well also how many atheists out there would actually take the stance and accor a higher value to their way of thinking over the theistic way of thinking the typical selfish argument would be that both lines of thinking evolved from the same inherent motivation so one is not intrinsically different from the other qualitatively but then again a measuring stick must be drawn somewhere and if we cannot assign value to a system of beliefs at its core than the only other alternative is to apply it to its periphery ie how it expresses its own selfishness i don t bother according a higher value to my thinking or just about anybodys thinking i don t want to fall in that trap because if you do start that then you are then to decide which is better says whom why is there a best and also what to do about those who have inferior modes of thinking idic infinite diversity in infinite combinations i ll argue it over a soda but not over much more just my what inflation has done m
alt.atheism	re the problem of satan used to be islamic authority over women in article apr news unomaha edu trajan cwis unomaha edu stephen mcintyre writes of course bobby then states that satan has no free will that he does as god wants him to this brings up a host of paradoxes is god therefore evil do i have free will or is god directing me also if god is evil which part of his infinite self is good and which is evil etc i would like for once a solid answer not a run about i hope i gave you a fairly solid answer to this one i simply don t agree with the embodied version of a satan who is a separate creation or a force i wrote the belief to which i ascribe is that evil is not a creation rather it is the absence of good this fits with all the logic about things having dual use e g a knife can be used to sculpt and it can be used to kill like entropy evil is seen in this view as neither force nor entity satan is therefore metaphorical in fact there are several verses of the holy qur an which appear to support this view and several traditions as well for example there is a tradition that food should never be left open on a shelf or table overnight lest satan enter it it appears that this is a reference to as yet undiscovered germs thus the evil effect of spoiled food is described as satan but there are many examples of satan personified which am i to believe and there are quite physical descriptions of heaven and hell in the holy qur an the bible etc there have been times in the spiritual and intellectual evolution of the modern human when these physical descriptions of heaven hell and satan were taken quite literally and that worked for the time as i mentioned in the tradition cited above for example it was sufficient in the absence of a theory about germs and disease spread by worms to simply describe the evil which was passed to a consumer of spoiled food as satanic which begs the question if satan in this case is metaphorical how can you be certain allah is not the same way the bottom line here however is that describing a spiritual plane in human language is something like describing color to a person who has been blind from birth you may want to read the book flatland if you haven t already or the dragon s egg the first is intended as a light hearted description of a mathematical con cept some deleted for space saving when language fails because it cannot be used to adequately describe another dimension which cannot be experienced by the speakers then such conventions as metaphor allegory and the like come to be necessary the unseen is described in terms which have reference and meaning for the reader listener but like all models a compro mise must be made when speaking metaphorically clarity and directness of meaning equivalence of perception and the like are all crippled but what else can you do this is why i asked the above how would you then know god exists as a spirit or being rather than just being metaphorical i mean it s okay to say well satan is just metaphorical but then you have to justify this belief and justify that god is not some metaphor for something else i say this because there are many many instances of satan described as a being such as the tormentor in the old testament book of job or the temptor in the new testament gospels in the same way god too is described as a being or spirit how am i to know one is metaphorical and not the other further belief in god isn t a bar to evil let s consider the case of satanists even if satan were metaphorical the satanist would have to believe in god to justify this belief again we have a case where someone does believe in god but by religious standards they are evil if bobby does see this let him address this question also deleted some more on metaphor obviously more philosophizing on this issue is possible but i m not sure that the readers of this newsgroup would want to delve into religious interpretation further however if anyone wishes to discuss this i m certainly willing either off line e mail or on line posting stephen atheist libertarian pro individuality pro responsibility jr and all that jazz
alt.atheism	re soc motss et al princeton axes matching funds for boy scouts in article pmjo inn l lynx unm edu bevans carina unm edu mathemagician writes just what do gay people do that straight people don t absolutely nothing i m a very straight as an arrow year old male that is involved in the bsa i don t care what gay people do among each other as long as they don t make passes at me or anything at my summer camp where i work my boss is gay not in a pansy way of gay i know a few but just one of the guys he doesn t push anything on me and we give him the same respect back due to his position if anything the bsa has taught me i don t know tolerance or something before i met this guy i thought all gays were faries so the bsa has taught me to be an antibigot basically it comes down to this what you do among yourself is your own business no one else has the right to tell you otherwise unless it violates someone else s civil rights
alt.atheism	re gospel dating date mon apr gmt from stilgar west next cville wam umd edu in article kmr po cwru edu kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes in article apr wam umd edu west next cville wam umd edu stilgar writes the illiad is the undisputed word of god tm prove me wrong i dispute it ergo by counter example you are proven wrong i dispute your counter example ergo by counter counter example you are wrong and i am right so nanny nanny boo boo tbbbbbbbtttttthhhhh p this looks like a serious case of temporary islam
alt.atheism	a word of advice in article mimsy umd edu mangoe cs umd edu charley wingate writes i ve said enough times that there is no alternative that should think you might have caught on by now and there is no alternative but the point is rationality isn t an alternative either the problems of metaphysical and religious knowledge are unsolvable or i should say humans cannot solve them how does that saying go those who say it can t be done shouldn t interrupt those who are doing it jim have you washed your brain today
alt.atheism	re concerning god s morality long jbrown batman bmd trw com writes sorry but there are no supernatural forces necessary to create a pathogen you are saying since diseases are bad the bad entity must have created it so what would you say about acid rain meteors falling from the sky volcanoes earthquakes and other quote unquote acts of god i would say that they are not acts of god but natural occurrences it amazes me that you have the audacity to say that human creation was not the result of the natural process of evolution but rather an act of god and then in the same post say that these other processes volcanos et al are natural occurrences who gave you the right to choose what things are natural processes and what are direct acts of god how do you know that god doesn t cause each and every natural disaster with a specific purpose in mind it would certainly go along with the sadistic nature i ve seen in the bible even if satan had nothing to do with the original inception of disease evolution by random chance would have produced them since humanity forsook god s protection if we choose to live apart from god s law humanity collectively then it should come as no surprise that there are adverse consequences to our collective action one of these is that we are left to deal with disease and disorders which inevitably result in an entropic universe may i ask where is this collective bullcrap coming from by collective i was referring to the idea that god works with humanity on two levels individually and collectively if mankind as a whole decides to undertake a certain action the majority of mankind then god will allow the consequences of that action to affect mankind as a whole adam eve two people even tho they had the honor or so you christians claim of being the first two definitely do not represent a majority in the billions and trillions probably more of people that have come after them perhaps they were the majority then but i and you weren t around to vote and perhaps we might have voted differently about what to do with that tree but your god never asked us he just assumes that if you have two bad people then they all must be bad hmm sounds like the same kind of false generalization that i see many of the theists posting here resorting to so that s where they get it shoulda known jim b nanci if you know and are sure of the author of this quote please send me email nm w andrew cmu edu lying to ourselves is more deeply ingrained than lying to others
alt.atheism	re islamic authority over women in article apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu s n mozumder writes that s your mistake it would be better for the children if the mother raised the child one thing that relates is among navy men that get tatoos that say mom because of the love of their mom it makes for more virile men compare that with how homos are raised do a study and you will get my point but in no way do you have a claim that it would be better if the men stayed home and raised the child that is something false made up by feminists that seek a status above men you do not recognize the fact that men and women have natural differences not just physically but mentally also your logic i didn t say americans were the cause of worlds problems i said atheists becuase they have no code of ethics to follow which means that atheists can do whatever they want which they feel is right something totally based on their feelings and those feelings cloud their rational thinking yeah i didn t say that all atheists are bad but that they could be bad or good with nothing to define bad or good awright bobby s back in all of his shit for brains glory just when i thought he d turned the corner of progress his thorazine prescription runs out i d put him in my kill file but man this is good stuff i wish i had his staying power fortunately i learned not to take him too seriously long long long ago bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re islamic authority over women in article apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu s n mozumder writes peace bobby get this the hell out of your sig until you learn what it stands for and really mean it bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	omnipotence was re speculations in article p psilink com robert knowles p psilink com writes date fri apr from nanci ann miller nm w andrew cmu edu can god uncreate itself no for if he did he would violate his own nature which he cannot do it is god s nature to exist he is after all the i am which is a statement of his inherent existence he is existence itself existence cannot not exist then as mentioned above he must not be very omnipotent what do you mean by omnipotent here do you mean by omnipotent that god should be able to do anything everything this creates a self contradictory definition of omnipotence which is effectively useless to be descriptive omnipotence must mean being all powerful and not being able to do anything everything let me illustrate by analogy suppose the united states were the only nuclear power on earth suppose further that the us military could not effectively be countered by any nation or group of nations the us has the power to go into any country at any time for any reason to straighten things out as the leaders of the us see fit the us would be militarily omnipotent but suppose further that the us holds to a doctrine philosophy of not interfering in the internal affairs of any nation such as the current civil war in the former yugoslavian states technically in this scenario the us would have the power to unilaterally go into yugoslavia and straighten out the mess but effectively the us could not intervene without violating its own policy of non interference if the policy of non interference were held to strongly enough then there would never be a question that it would ever be violated effectively the us would be limited in what it could actually do although it had the power to do whatever it wanted the us would simply never want to interfere for such an idea would be beyond the consideration of its leaders given such an inviolate non interference policy god is effectively limited in the same sense he is all powerful but he cannot use his power in a way that would violate the essence of what he himself is i hope this helps to clear up some of the misunderstanding concerning omnipotence regards jim b
alt.atheism	re islamic marriage in article apr cadence com mas cadence com masud khan writes in article c qav wg austin ibm com karner austin ibm com f karner writes okay so you want me to name names there are obviously no official records of these pseudo marriages because they are performed for convenience what happens typically is that the woman is willing to move in with her lover without any scruples or legal contracts to speak of the man is merely utilizing a loophole by entering into a temporary religious marriage contract in order to have sex nobody complains nobody cares nobody needs to know perhaps you should alert your imam it could be that this practice is far more widespread than you may think or maybe it takes muslim men to witness the penetration to decide if the practice exists again you astound me with the level of ignorance you display muslims are not allowed to enter temporary marriages got that there is no evidence for it it an outlawed practise so get your facts straight buddy give me references for it or just tell everyone you were lying it is not a widespread as you may think fantasise in fact contrary to your fantasies it is not practised at all amongst muslims first of all i m not your buddy second read what i wrote i m not talking about what muslims are allowed to do merely what some practice they consider themselves as muslim as you so don t retort with the old and tired they must not be true muslims bullshit if i gave you the names what will you do with this information is a fatwa going to be leashed out against the perpetrators do you honestly think that someone who did it would voluntarily come forward and confess with the kind of extremism shown by your co religionaries fat chance at any rate there can be no conclusive proof by the very nature of the act perhaps people that indulge in this practice agree with you in theory but hope that allah will forgive them in the end i think it s rather arrogant of you to pretend to speak for all muslims in this regard also kind of silly are you insinuating that because the koranic law forbids it there are no criminals in muslim countries this is as far as i care to go on this subject the weakness of your arguments are for all netters to see over and out disclaimer the opinions expressed in this posting are mine solely and do not represent my employer in any way f a karner aix technical support karner austin vnet ibm com
alt.atheism	re political atheists in article pi h innq gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes reference line trimmed livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes there is a good deal more confusion here you started off with the assertion that there was some objective morality and as you admit here you finished up with a recursive definition murder is objectively immoral but eactly what is murder and what is not itself requires an appeal to morality yes now you have switch targets a little but only a little now you are asking what is the goal what do you mean by goal are you suggesting that there is some objective goal out there somewhere and we form our morals to achieve it well for example the goal of natural morality is the survival and propogation of the species i got just this far what do you mean by goal i hope you don t mean to imply that evolution has a conscious goal jon
alt.atheism	re political atheists in article pic linnrau gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes my personal objection is that i find capital punishment to be cruel and unusual punishment under all circumstances it can be painless so it isn t cruel and it has occurred frequently since the dawn of time so it is hardly unusual koff you mean that as long as i put you to sleep first i can kill you without being cruel this changes everything jon
alt.atheism	re political atheists in article pieg inns gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes now along comes mr keith schneider and says here is an objective moral system and then i start to ask him about the definitions that this objective system depends on and predictably the whole thing falls apart it only falls apart if you attempt to apply it this doesn t mean that an objective system can t exist it just means that one cannot be implemented it s not the fact that it can t exist that bothers me it s the fact that you don t seem to be able to define it if i wanted to hear about indefinable things that might in principle exist as long as you don t think about them too carefully i could ask a religious person now couldn t i jon
alt.atheism	re pompous ass in article pi btinnqa gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes then why do people keep asking the same questions over and over because you rarely ever answer them nope i ve answered each question posed and most were answered multiple times he fifty dollars if i can t answer your question she what is the big bang theory he the big bang theory is a recipe for cookies she fifty dollars please he hey i didn t say the answers would make sense jon
alt.atheism	re pompous ass in article pi jkinnqe gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes how long does it the motto have to stay around before it becomes the default where s the cutoff point i don t know where the exact cutoff is but it is at least after a few years and surely after years why does the notion of default not take into account changes in population makeup specifically which changes are you talking about are you arguing that the motto is interpreted as offensive by a larger portion of the population now than years ago no do i have to i m just commenting that it makes very little sense to consider everything we inherit to be the default seen any steam trains recently jon
alt.atheism	re concerning god s morality long in article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com responds to a lot of grief given to him in article apr leland stanford edu galahad leland stanford edu scott compton a k a the sagemaster but then i ask so where is this relevant to my discussion in answering john s question of why why are there genetic diseases and why are there so many bacterial and viral diseases which require babies to develop antibodies is it god s fault the original question i say no it is not most of scotty s followup was irrelevant to the original question but this is not unusual as threads often quickly evolve away from the original topic what i could not understand is why jim spent so much time responding to what he regarded as irrelevancies may i ask where is this collective bullcrap coming from by collective i was referring to the idea that god works with humanity on two levels individually and collectively if mankind as a whole decides to undertake a certain action the majority of mankind well i guess hypothetical adam was the majority of mankind seeing how he was the only man at the time then god will allow the consequences of that action to affect mankind as a whole if you didn t understand that then i apologize for not using one and two syllable words in my discussion i understand what you mean by collective but i think it is an insane perversion of justice what sort of judge would punish the descendants for a crime committed by their ancestor if you want to be sure that i read your post and to provide a response send a copy to jim brown oz bmd trw com i can t read a a every day and some posts slip by thanks well i must admit that you probably read a a more often than i read the bible these days but you missed a couple of good followups to your post i m sending you a personal copy of my followup which i hope you will respond to publically in a a john the sageless
alt.atheism	re jews can t hide from keith cco in article apr bmerh bnr ca dgraham bmers bnr ca douglas graham writes in article pj b aaa fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in article apr bmerh bnr ca dgraham bmers bnr ca douglas graham writes er jon what ken said was there have previously been people like you in your country unfortunately most jews did not survive that sure sounds to me like ken is accusing the guy of being a nazi my previous posting deleted yes yes this is a perfectly fine rant and i agree with it completely but what does it have to do with anything the issue at hand here is whether or not ken accused the fellow from germany of being a nazi i grant that he did not explicity make this accusation but he came pretty damn close he is certainly accusing the guy of sympathizing with those who would like to exterminate the jews and that s good enough for me the poster casually trashed two thousand years of jewish history and ken replied that there had previously been people like him in germany that s right there have been there have also been people who were formally nazis but the nazi party would have gone nowhere without the active and tacit support of the ordinary man in the street who behaved as though casual anti semitism was perfectly acceptable now what exactly don t you understand about what i wrote and why don t you see what it has to do with the matter at hand jon
alt.atheism	re jews can t hide from keith cco in article apr mac cc macalstr edu acooper mac cc macalstr edu writes in article pint l fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes well germany was hardly the only country to discriminate against the jews although it has the worst reputation because it did the best job of expressing a general european dislike of them this should not turn into a debate on antisemitism but you should also point out that luther s antisemitism was based on religious grounds while hitler s was on racial grounds and wagnmer s on aesthetic grounds just blanketing the whole group is poor analysis even if they all are bigots i find these to be intriguing remarks could you give us a bit more explanation here for example which religion is anti semitic and which aesthetic jon
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes in p ivt cfj fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes should we british go around blowing up skyscrapers next i don t know if you are doing so but it seems you are implying that the person accused of blowing up the wtc in ny actually did it and that islamic teachings have something to do with blowing up the wtc i was replying to a person who attempted to justify the fatwa against rushdie on the grounds that his work was intentionally insulting i think that to take a single sentence from a fairly long posting and to say i don t know if you are doing so but it seems you are implying is at the very best quite disingenuous and perhaps even dishonest if anyone care to dig back and read the full posting they will see nothing of the kind i trust you don t deny that islamic teaching has something to do with the fatwa against rushdie jon
alt.atheism	re an anecdote about islam in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes i don t understand the point of this petty sarcasm it is a basic principle of islam that if one is born muslim or one says i testify that there is no god but god and mohammad is a prophet of god that so long as one does not explicitly reject islam by word then one must be considered muslim by all muslims so the phenomenon you re attempting to make into a general rule or psychology is a direct odds with basic islamic principles if you want to attack islam you could do better than than to argue against something that islam explicitly contradicts then mr mozumder is incorrect when he says that when committing bad acts people temporarily become atheists jon
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by atheism snm ultb isc rit edu s n mozumder writes if saddam believed in god he would pray five times a day communism on the other hand actually committed genocide in the name of atheism as lenin and stalin have said themselves these two were die hard atheist look a pun and believed in atheism as an integral part of communism no bobby stalin killed millions in the name of socialism atheism was a characteristic of the lenin stalin version of socialism nothing more another characteristic of lenin stalin socialism was the centralization of food distribution would you therefore say that stalin and lenin killed millions in the name of rationing bread of course not more horrible deaths resulted from atheism than anything else in earlier posts you stated that true muslim believers were incapable of evil i suppose if you believe that you could reason that no one has ever been killed in the name of religion what a perfect world you live in bobby one of the reasons that you are atheist is that you limit god by giving god a form god does not have a face bobby is referring to a rather obscure law in the good atheist s handbook law xxvi a give that which you do not believe in a face you must excuse us bobby when we argue against theism we usually argue against the christian idea of god in the realm of christianity man was created in god s image kevin marshall sophomore computer science virginia tech blacksburg va usa marshall csugrad cs vt edu
alt.atheism	re the list of biblical contradictions joslin pogo isp pitt edu david joslin writes someone writes i found a list of biblical contradictions and cleaned it up a bit but now i d like some help with it i m curious to know what purpose people think these lists serve it s about time why do atheists spend so much time paying attention to the bible anyway face it there are better things to do with your life i used to chuckle and snort over the silliness in that book and the absurdity of people believing in it as truth etc why do we spend so little time on the mayan religion or the native americans heck the native americans have signifigantly more interesting myths also what about the egyptians i think we pay so much attention to christianity because we accept it as a religion and not a mythology which i find more accurate i try to be tolerant it gets very hard when someone places a book under my nose and tells me it s special it s not carolyn
alt.atheism	re a visit from the jehovah s witnesses on apr mst jbrown batman bmd trw com said god is eternal a b jesus is god c a therefore jesus is eternal c b this works both logically and mathematically god is of the set of things which are eternal jesus is a subset of god therefore jesus belongs to the set of things which are eternal everything isn t always so logical mercedes is a car that girl is mercedes therefore that girl is a car heikki
alt.atheism	re political atheists in article k rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew mantis co uk mathew writes in article apr blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee writes the automobile system kills non driving passengers not to mention pedestrians you need not drive or even use a car to be killed by one indeed and it kills far more than a system of public transport would i am therefore entirely in favour of banning private cars and replacing them with trains buses taxis bicycles and so on seconded i cycle to work each day and if we could just get those damned cars and their cretinous drivers off the road it would be a lot more fun jon
alt.atheism	re political atheists in article h rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew mantis co uk mathew writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes and we meaning people who drive accept the risks of doing so and contribute tax money to design systems to minimize those risks eh we already have systems to minimize those risks it s just that you car drivers don t want to use them they re called bicycles trains and buses poor matthew a million posters to call you car drivers and he chooses me a non car owner jon
alt.atheism	re omnipotence was re speculations in article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes in article p psilink com robert knowles p psilink com writes date fri apr from nanci ann miller nm w andrew cmu edu can god uncreate itself no for if he did he would violate his own nature which he cannot do it is god s nature to exist he is after all the i am which is a statement of his inherent existence he is existence itself existence cannot not exist then as mentioned above he must not be very omnipotent what do you mean by omnipotent here do you mean by omnipotent that god should be able to do anything everything this creates a self contradictory definition of omnipotence which is effectively useless to be descriptive omnipotence must mean being all powerful and not being able to do anything everything let me illustrate by analogy suppose the united states were the only nuclear power on earth suppose further that the us military could not effectively be countered by any nation or group of nations the us has the power to go into any country at any time for any reason to straighten things out as the leaders of the us see fit the us would be militarily omnipotent did you check with the afghans before posting this they might disagree jon
alt.atheism	re a little too satanic mangoe cs umd edu charley wingate writes nanci ann miller writes my favorite reply to the you are being too literal minded complaint is that if the bible is really inspired by god and if it is really that important to him then he would make damn certain all the translators and scribes and people interpreting and copying it were getting it right literally if not then why should i put any merit at all in something that has been corrupted over and over and over by man even if it was originally inspired by god the corrupted over and over theory is pretty weak comparison of the current hebrew text with old versions and translations shows that the text has in fact changed very little over a space of some two millennia this shouldn t be all that suprising people who believe in a text in this manner are likely to makes some pains to make good copies do you honestly hold to that tripe charley for a start there are enough current versions of the bible to make comparisons to show that what you write above is utter garbage witness jw mormon catholic anglican and greek orthodox bibles but to really convince you i d have to take you to a good old library in our local library we had a king james which i compared to a brand new hot of god s tongue good news bible genesis was almost unrecognisable many of the discrepencies between the four gospels had been edited from the good news bible in fact the god of good news was a much more congenial fellow i must say if you like i ll get the king james out again and actually give you some quotes at least the headings haven t changed much jeff
alt.atheism	re ancient islamic rituals cfaehl vesta unm edu chris faehl writes why is it more reasonable than the trend towards obesity and the trend towards depression you can t just pick your two favorite trends notice a correlation in them and make a sweeping statement of generality i mean you can and people have but that does not mean that it is a valid or reasonable thesis at best it s a gross oversimplification of the push pull factors people experience i agree i reckon it s television and the increase in fundamentalism you think its the increase in pre marital sex others thinks its because psychologists have taken over the criminal justice system and let violent criminals con them into letting them out into the streets others think it s the increase in designer drugs others think it s a communist plot basically the social interactions of all the changing factors in our society are far too complicated for us to control we just have to hold on to the panic handles and hope that we are heading for a soft landing but one things for sure depression and the destruction of the nuclear family is not due solely to sex out of marriage jeff fred rice a muslim giving his point of view darice yoyo cc monash edu au cfaehl vesta unm edu
alt.atheism	re americans and evolution in article apr njitgw njit edu dmu hertz njit edu david utidjian eng sci writes in article mar juliet caltech edu lmh juliet caltech edu henling lawrence m writes for a complete description of what is and is not atheism or agnosticism see the faq for alt atheism in alt answers i think utidjian remarque berkeley edu i apologize for posting this i thought it was only going to talk origins i also took my definitions from a websters nonetheless the apparent past arguments over these words imply that like bimonthly and biweekly they have no commonly accepted definitions and should be used with care larry henling lmh shakes caltech edu
alt.atheism	re jews can t hide from keith cco in article pj b aaa fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in article apr bmerh bnr ca dgraham bmers bnr ca douglas graham writes in article pint l fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes deletions er jon what ken said was there have previously been people like you in your country unfortunately most jews did not survive that sure sounds to me like ken is accusing the guy of being a nazi hitler and the nazis didn t spring fully formed from the forehead of athena they didn t invent anti semitism they built on a foundation of anti semitism that was already present in germany this foundation of anti semitism was laid down not by the nazis but by the people i listed and also by hundreds of years of unthinking knee jerk bigotry on the part of perfectly ordinary people and of course their pastors and priests what we have to worry about today is not whether some hollywood hitler in a black uniform is going to come striding onto the german stage in one unprepared step but whether those same bedrock foundations of anti semitism are being laid down little by little in germany as we speak and if so they will be laid down not by hitlers and himmlers who will come later but by people like the poster in question the people who think that casual anti semitism is acceptable or even fun deletions i did now may i suggest with the greatest possible respect that you go read some history jon so you consider the german poster s remark anti semitic perhaps you imply that anyone in germany who doesn t agree with israely policy in a nazi pray tell how does it even qualify as casual anti semitism if the term doesn t apply why then bring it up your own bigotry is shining through disclaimer the opinions expressed in this posting are mine solely and do not represent my employer in any way f a karner aix technical support karner austin vnet ibm com
alt.atheism	re omnipotence was re speculations in article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes god is effectively limited in the same sense he is all powerful but he cannot use his power in a way that would violate the essence of what he himself is cannot try will not one thing that relates is among navy men that get tatoos that say mom because of the love of their mom it makes for more virile men bobby mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu april the one true muslim left in the world
alt.atheism	re a visit from the jehovah s witnesses in article suopanki apr stekt oulu fi suopanki stekt oulu fi heikki t suopanki writes god is eternal a b jesus is god c a therefore jesus is eternal c b this works both logically and mathematically god is of the set of things which are eternal jesus is a subset of god therefore jesus belongs to the set of things which are eternal everything isn t always so logical mercedes is a car that girl is mercedes therefore that girl is a car this is not strickly correct only by incorrect application of the rules of language does it seem to work the mercedes in the first premis and the one in the second are not the same mercedes in your case a b c d a and d are not equal one is a name of a person the other the name of a object you can not simply extract a word without taking the context into account of course your case doesn t imply that a d in his case a does equal d try again one thing that relates is among navy men that get tatoos that say mom because of the love of their mom it makes for more virile men bobby mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu april the one true muslim left in the world
alt.atheism	islam vs the jehovah s witnesses in article apr princeton edu qpliu princeton edu writes in article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes but god created lucifer with a perfect nature and gave him along with the other angels free moral will now god could have prevented lucifer s fall by taking away his ability to choose between moral alternatives worship god or worship himself so lucifer s moral choices are determined by his will what determines what his will is qpliu princeton edu standard opinion opinions are delta correlated bobby a few posts ago you said that lucifer had no free will from the above it seems the jw believes the contrary are you talking about the same lucifer if so can you suggest an experiment to determine which of you is wrong or do you claim that you are both right norman
alt.atheism	re had to share this in article apr acme gen nz kilroy acme gen nz earthbound misfit i writes bena dec cs monash edu au ben aveling writes warning if you are anything like a devout christian this post is really going to offend and or upset you numerous ctrl ls deleted hehehe i assume everyone here is familiar with the christian fish symbol the one on the back of all those volvos the one that looks something like or perhaps more like well i found out this morning where it comes from it s been stolen from the pagans like so much else last last chance to be blisfully ignorant hmm how can i put it well it comes from this sigh i hate drawing with ascii chars still i think you can work it out from there if you haven t go read skinny legs and all by tom robbins if he s even accurate then most of the modern religions have been appropriated it s also a great book followups to alt atheism whose readers are probably slightly more authorative on this k craig harding kilroy acme gen nz acme bbs jub er lbh pnyyvat n obmb craig i thought it was derived from a greek acronym my greek isn t up to much but it goes something like this jesus christ god iesus christos theos ichthos which is the greek for fish as in eg ichthysaurus apologies for my dreadful greek perhaps someone will correct it by the way what does your sig mean norman
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by atheism in article apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu s n mozumder writes one of the reasons that you are atheist is that you limit god by giving god a form god does not have a face wait a minute i thought you said that allah i presume allah god was unknowable and yet here you are claiming to know a very concrete fact about him you say that god does not have a face doesn t the bible say that god has hindparts how do you suggest i decide which if any of you is right or are you both right god has hindparts but no face or does your use of quotation marks god does not have a face allow you to interpret this to mean whatever you like peace bobby mozumder norman
alt.atheism	re a visit from the jehovah s witnesses in article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes in article ba da i dbstu rz tu bs de i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau writes but could you give a definition of free will especially in the presence of an omniscient being will is self determination in other words god created conscious beings who have the ability to choose between moral choices independently of god all will therefore is free will so these hypothetical conscious beings can ignore any influences of their circumstances their genetics their environment their experiences which are not all self determined of course the idea of hell makes the idea of free will dubious on the other hand the idea of hell is not a very powerful idea a parable for you there was once our main character who blah blah blah one day a thug pointed a mean looking gun at omc and said do what i say or i m blasting you to hell omc thought if i believe this thug and follow the instructions that will be given i ll avoid getting blasted to hell on the other hand if i believe this thug and do not follow the instructions that will be given i ll get blasted to hell hmm the more attractive choice is obvious i ll follow the instructions now omc found the choice obvious because everything omc had learned about getting blasted to hell made it appear very undesirable but then omc noticed that the thug s gun wasn t a real gun the thug s threats were make believe so omc ignored the thug and resumed blah blah blah qpliu princeton edu standard opinion opinions are delta correlated
alt.atheism	re gospel dating in article kmr po cwru edu kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes in article apr wam umd edu west next cville wam umd edu stilgar writes in article kmr po cwru edu kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes in article apr wam umd edu west next cville wam umd edu stilgar writes the illiad is the undisputed word of god tm prove me wrong i dispute it ergo by counter example you are proven wrong i dispute your counter example ergo by counter counter example you are wrong and i am right so nanny nanny boo boo tbbbbbbbtttttthhhhh no the premis stated that it was undisputed fine the illiad is the word of god tm disputed or not it is dispute that it won t matter prove me wrong brian west this is not a sig file to the earth we have been this is not a sig file here but for the blink of an ok so it s a sig file eye if we were gone tomorrow posted by west wam umd edu we would not be missed who doesn t care who knows it jurassic park diclaimer i said this i meant this nobody made me do it
alt.atheism	re gospel dating in article apr wam umd edu west next cville wam umd edu stilgar writes fine the illiad is the word of god tm disputed or not it is dispute that it won t matter prove me wrong the illiad contains more than one word ergo it can not be the word of god but if you will humbly agree that it is the words of god i will conceed d one thing that relates is among navy men that get tatoos that say mom because of the love of their mom it makes for more virile men bobby mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu april the one true muslim left in the world
alt.atheism	re americans and evolution in article pik i l fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in article c u l bv darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes why do you spend so much time posting here if your atheism is so incidental if the question of god is trivial fess up it matters to you a great deal ask yourself two questions how important is mithras in your life today how important would mithras become if there was a well funded group of fanatics trying to get the schools system to teach your children that mithras was the one true god jon right on jon who cares who or whose as long as it works for the individual but don t try to impose those beliefs on us or our children i would add the well funded group tries also to purge science to deny children access to great wonders and skills and how about the kids born to creationists what a burden with which to begin adult life it must be a cruel awakening for those who finally see the light provided it is possible to escape from the depths of this type of ignorance
alt.atheism	re a visit from the jehovah s witnesses jbrown batman bmd trw com writes my syllogism is of the form a is b c is a therefore c is b this is a logically valid construction your syllogism however is of the form a is b c is b therefore c is a therefore yours is a logically invalid construction and your comments don t apply i appeal to mathew mantis here who wrote the excellent post now part of the faq on logical argument jim b i am not mathew mantis but any successful first year logic student will see that you are logically correct the other poster is logically incorrect i know is nothing more than i believe with pretentions
alt.atheism	re concerning god s morality was americans and evolution in article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes why do babies get diseases etc what god did create was life according to a protein code which is mutable and can evolve without delving into a deep discussion of creationism vs evolutionism here s the main problem the scenario you outline is reasonably consistent but all the evidence that i am familiar with not only does not support it but indicates something far different the earth by latest estimates is about billion years old and has had life for about billion of those years humans have only been around for at most about years but the fossil evidence inidcates that life has been changing and evolving and in fact disease ridden long before there were people yes there are fossils that show signs of disease mostly bone disorders of course but there are some heck not just fossil evidence but what we ve been able to glean from genetic study shows that disease has been around for a long long time if human sin was what brought about disease at least indirectly though necessarily then how could it exist before humans god created the original genetic code perfect and without flaw and without getting sidetracked into the theological ramifications of the original sin the main effect of the so called original sin for this discussion was to remove humanity from god s protection since by their choice a e cut themselves off from intimate fellowship with god in addition their sin caused them to come under the dominion of satan who then assumed dominion over the earth deletions since humanity was no longer under god s protection but under satan s dominion it was no great feat for satan to genetically engineer diseases both bacterial viral and genetic although the forces of natural selection tend to improve the survivability of species the degeneration of the genetic code tends to more than offset this uh i know of many evolutionary biologists who know more about biology than you claim to who will strongly disagree with this there is no evidence that the human genetic code or any other started off in perfect condition it seems to adapt to its envionment in a collective sense i m really curious as to what you mean by the degeneration of the genetic code human dna being more complex tends to accumulate errors adversely affecting our well being and ability to fight off disease while the simpler dna of bacteria and viruses tend to become more efficient in causing infection and disease it is a bad combination umm nah we seem to do a pretty good job of adapting to viruses and bacteria and they to us only a very small percentage of microlife is harmful to humans and that small percentage seems to be reasonalby constant in size but the ranks keep changing for example bubonic plague used to be a really nasty disease i m sure you ll agree but it still pops up from time to time even today and doesn t do as much damage part of that is because of better sanitation but even when people get the disease the symptoms tend to be less severe than in the past this seems to be partly because people who were very susceptible died off long ago and because the really nasty variants overgrazed forgive the poor terminology i m an engineer not a doctor and died off for lack of nearby hosts i could be wrong on this but from what i gather acne is only a few hundred years old and used to be nastier though no killer it seems to be getting less nasty w age hence we have newborns that suffer from genetic viral and bacterial diseases disorders now wait a minute i have a question humans were created perfect right and you admit that we have an inbuilt abiliy to fight off disease it seems unlikely that satan who s making the diseases would also gift humans with the means to fight them off simpler to make the diseases less lethal if he wants survivors as far as i can see our immune systems imperfect though they may presently be must have been built into us by god i want to be clear on this are you saying that god was planning ahead for the time when satan would be in charge by building an immune system that was not at the time of design necessary that is god made our immune systems ahead of time knowing that adam and eve would sin and their descendents would need to fight off diseases this may be more of a mystical supernatural explanation than you are prepared to accept but god is not responsible for disease even if satan had nothing to do with the original inception of disease evolution by random chance would have produced them since humanity forsook god s protection here s another puzzle what exactly do you mean by perfect in the phrase created perfect and without flaw to my mind a perfect system would be incapable of degrading over time a perfect system that will without constant intervention become imperfect is not a perfect system at least imho or is it that god did something like writing a masterpiece novel on a bunch of gum wrappers held together with elmer s glue that is the original genetic instructions were perfect but were written in inferior materials that had to be carefully tended or would fall apart if so why could god not have used better materials was god incapable of creating a system that could maintain itself of did it just choose not to deletions in summary newborns are innocent but god does not cause their suffering my main point as i said was that there really isn t any evidence for the explanation you give at least that i m aware of but i couldn t help making a few nitpicks here and there sincerely ray ingles the above opinions are probably not those of the university of ingles engin umich edu michigan yet
alt.atheism	re concerning god s morality long in article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes in article apr leland stanford edu galahad leland stanford edu scott compton writes deletions now back to your post you have done a fine job at using your seventh grade life science course to explain why bad diseases are caused by satan and good things are a result of god but i want to let you in on a little secret we can create an amino acid sequence in lab and guess what the sequence curls into a helix wow that s right it can happen without a supernatural force wow all it takes is a few advanced science degrees and millions of dollars of state of the art equipment and i thought it took intelligence to create the building blocks of life foolish me people with advanced science degrees use state of the art equipment and spend millions of dollars to simulate tornadoes but tornadoes do not require intelligence to exist not only that the equipment needed is not really state of the art to study the products yes but not to generate them if you want to be sure that i read your post and to provide a response send a copy to jim brown oz bmd trw com i can t read a a every day and some posts slip by thanks oh i will sincerely ray ingles the above opinions are probably not those of the university of ingles engin umich edu michigan yet
alt.atheism	re an anecdote about islam date apr gmt from jon livesey livesey solntze wpd sgi com in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes i don t understand the point of this petty sarcasm it is a basic principle of islam that if one is born muslim or one says i testify that there is no god but god and mohammad is a prophet of god that so long as one does not explicitly reject islam by word then one must be considered muslim by all muslims so the phenomenon you re attempting to make into a general rule or psychology is a direct odds with basic islamic principles if you want to attack islam you could do better than than to argue against something that islam explicitly contradicts then mr mozumder is incorrect when he says that when committing bad acts people temporarily become atheists jon of course b m is not incorrect he is defending islam when defending islam against infidels you can say anything and no one will dare criticize you but when an atheist uses the same argument he is using petty sarcasm so b m can have his temporary atheists whenever he needs them and all the temporary atheists can later say that they were always good muslims because they never explicitly rejected islam temporary atheism temporary islam temporary marriage none of it sticks a teflon religion how convenient and so easy to clean up after but then what would you expect from a bunch of people who can t even agree on the phases of the moon
alt.atheism	re concerning god s morality long this kind of argument cries for a comment jbrown batman bmd trw com wrote in article apr leland stanford edu galahad leland stanford edu scott compton writes jim you originally wrote god did not create disease nor is he responsible for the maladies of newborns what god did create was life according to a protein code which is mutable and can evolve without delving into a deep discussion of creationism vs evolutionism god created the original genetic code perfect and without flaw do you have any evidence for this if the code was once perfect and has degraded ever since we should have some evidence in favour of this statement shouldn t we perhaps the biggest imperfection of the code is that it is full of non coding regions introns which are so called because they intervene with the coding regions exons an impressive amount of evidence suggests that introns are of very ancient origin it is likely that early exons represented early protein domains is the number of introns decreasing or increasing it appears that intron loss can occur and species with common ancestry usually have quite similar exon intron structure in their genes on the other hand the possibility that introns have been inserted later presents several logical difficulties introns are removed by a splicing mechanism this would have to be present but unused if introns are inserted moreover intron insertion would have required precise targeting random insertion would not be tolerated since sequences for intron removal self splicing of mrna are conserved besides transposition of a sequence usually leaves a trace long terminal repeats and target site duplications and these are not found in or near intron sequences i seriously recommend reading textbooks on molecular biology and genetics before posting theological arguments like this try watson s molecular biology of the gene or darnell lodish baltimore s molecular biology of the cell for starters remember the question was posed in a theological context why does god cause disease in newborns and my answer is likewise from a theological perspective my own it is no less valid than a purely scientific perspective just different scientific perspective is supported by the evidence whereas theological perspectives often fail to fulfil this criterion i think you misread my meaning i said god made the genetic code perfect but that doesn t mean it s perfect now it has certainly evolved since for the worse would you please cite a few references that support your assertion your assertion is less valid than the scientific perspective unless you support it by some evidence in fact it has been claimed that parasites and diseases are perhaps more important than we ve thought for instance sex might have evolved as defence against parasites this view is supported by computer simulations of evolution eg tierra perhaps i thought it was higher energy rays like x rays gamma rays and cosmic rays that caused most of the damage in fact it is thermal energy that does most of the damage although it is usually mild and easily fixed by enzymatic action actually neither of us knows what the atmosphere was like at the time when god created life according to my recollection most biologists do not claim that life began billion years ago after all that would only be a half billion years or so after the earth was created it would still be too primitive to support life i seem to remember a figure more like to billion years ago for the origination of life on earth anyone with a better estimate i d replace created with formed since there is no need to invoke any creator if the earth can be formed without one most recent estimates of the age of the earth range between billion years and earliest signs of life not true fossils but organic stromatolite like layers date back to billion years this would leave more than billion years for the first cells to evolve i m sorry i can t give any references this is based on the course on evolutionary biochemistry i attended here dominion it was no great feat for satan to genetically engineer diseases both bacterial viral and genetic although the forces of natural selection tend to improve the survivability of species the degeneration of the genetic code tends to more than offset this again do you want this be true or do you have any evidence for this supposed degeneration i can understand scott s reaction excuse me but this is so far fetched that i know you must be jesting do you know what pathogens are do you know what point mutations are do you know that everything can come about spontaneously in response to your last statement no and neither do you you may very well believe that and accept it as fact but you cannot know that i hope you don t forget this we have evidence that suggests everything can come about spontaneously do you have evidence against this conclusion in science one does not have to believe in anything it is a healthy sign to doubt and disbelieve but the right path to walk is to take a look at the evidence if you do so and not to present one s own conclusions prior to this theology does not use this method therefore i seriously doubt it could ever come to right conclusions human dna being more complex tends to accumulate errors adversely affecting our well being and ability to fight off disease while the simpler dna of bacteria and viruses tend to become more efficient in causing infection and disease it is a bad combination hence we have newborns that suffer from genetic viral and bacterial diseases disorders you are supposing a purpose not a valid move bacteria and viruses do not exist to cause disease they are just another manifests of a general principle of evolution only replication saves replicators from degradiation we are just an efficient method for our dna to survive and replicate the less efficient methods didn t make it to the present and for the last time please present some evidence for your claim that human dna is degrading through evolutionary processes some people have claimed that the opposite is true we have suppressed our selection and thus are bound to degrade i haven t seen much evidence for either claim but then i ask so where is this relevant to my discussion in answering john s question of why why are there genetic diseases and why are there so many bacterial and viral diseases which require babies to develop antibodies is it god s fault the original question i say no it is not of course nothing evil is god s fault but your explanation does not work it fails miserably you may be right but the fact is that you don t know that satan is not responsible and neither do i suppose that a powerful evil being like satan exists would it be inconceivable that he might be responsible for many of the ills that affect mankind i don t think so he could have done a much better job pun intended the problem is it seems no satan is necessary to explain any diseases they are just as inevitable as any product of evolution did i say that where seems to me like another bad inference actually what you ve done is to oversimplify what i said to the point that your summary of my words takes on a new context i never said that people are meant presumably by god to be punished by getting diseases why i did say is that free moral choices have attendent consequences if mankind chooses to reject god as people have done since the beginning then they should not expect god to protect them from adverse events in an entropic universe i am not expecting this if god exists i expect him to leave us alone i would also like to hear why do you believe your choices are indeed free this is an interesting philosophical question and the answer is not as clear cut as it seems to be what consequences would you expect from rejecting allah oh i admit it s not perfect yet but i m working on it a good library or a bookstore is a good starting point what does this have to do with the price of tea in china or the question to which i provided an answer biology and genetics are fine subjects and important scientific endeavors but they explain how god created and set up life processes they don t explain the why behind creation life or its subsequent evolution why is there a why behind and your proposition was something that is not supported by the evidence this is why we recommend these books is there any need to invoke any why behind a prime mover evidence for this if the whole universe can come into existence without any intervention as recent cosmological theories hawking et al suggest why do people still insist on this thanks scotty for your fine and sagely advice but i am not highly motivated to learn all the nitty gritty details of biology and genetics although i m sure i d find it a fascinating subject for i realize that the details do not change the big picture that god created life in the beginning with the ability to change and adapt to its environment i m sorry but they do there is no evidence for your big picture and no need to create anything that is capable of adaptation it can come into existence without a supreme being try reading p w atkins creation revisited freeman petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics is the truth pihatie c finou oulu fi physics is the rule of sf oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu fi chemistry is the game
alt.atheism	re islam dress code for women in article ba c i dbstu rz tu bs de i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau writes in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes do women have souls in islam people have said here that some muslims say that women do not have souls i must admit i have never heard of such a view being held by muslims of any era i have heard of some christians of some eras holding this viewpoint but not muslims are you sure you might not be confusing christian history with islamic history yes it is supposed to have been a predominant view in the turkish caliphate i am not aware of any turkish caliphate viewpoint on this can you reference however i found a quote due to imam ali whom the shias follow men never obey your women in any way whatsoever never let them give their advice on any matter whatsoever even those of everyday life indeed allow them freely to give advice on anything and they will fritter away one s wealth and disobey the wishes of the owner of this wealth we see them without religion when alone they are left to their own devices they are lacking in both pity and virtue when their carnal desires are at stake it is easy to enjoy them but they cause great anxiety the most virtious among them are libertines but the most corrupt are whores only those of them whom age has deprived of any charm are untainted by vice they have three qualities particular to miscreants they complain of being oppressed whereas it is they who oppress they make oaths whereas they are lying they pretend to refuse men s solicitations whereas they desire them most ardently let us beg the help of god to emerge victorious from their evil deeds and preserve us in any case from their good ones quote from mas ud al qanawi ref a bouhdiba sexuality in islam p i wouldn t consider this quote as being exemplary of the islamic tm viewpoint though for all we know the prophet s cousin and the fourth khalif hazret i ali may have said this after a frustrating night with a woman selim guncer selim e guncer jaca negra luna grande csser asu y aceitunas en mi alforja aunque sepa los caminos guncer enuxha eas asu edu yo nunca llegare a cordoba fgl
alt.atheism	re islamic authority over women in article apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu s n mozumder writes that s your mistake it would be better for the children if the mother raised the child one thing that relates is among navy men that get tatoos that say mom because of the love of their mom it makes for more virile men compare that with how homos are raised do a study and you will get my point but in no way do you have a claim that it would be better if the men stayed home and raised the child that is something false made up by feminists that seek a status above men you do not recognize the fact that men and women have natural differences not just physically but mentally also bobby there s a question here that i just have to ask if all of your posts aren t some sort of extended elaborate hoax why are you trying so hard to convince the entire civilised world that you re feeble minded you have a talent for saying the most absurd things here s a little sign for you print it cut it out and put it on top of your computer terminal engage brain prior to operating keyboard having said all that i must admit we all get a laugh from your stuff graham jenkins graham jenkins its csiro au csiro commonwealth scientific industrial canberra australia research organisation
alt.atheism	re jews can t hide from keith cco in article c daq fqs austin ibm com karner austin ibm com f karner writes so you consider the german poster s remark anti semitic when someone says so after years of sightseeing and roaming around its ok to come back kill palastinians and get their land back right yes that s casual antisemitism i can think of plenty of ways to criticize israeli policy without insulting jews or jewish history can t you jon
alt.atheism	re don t more innocents die without the death penalty james f tims p psilink com writes by maintaining classes d and e even in prison it seems as if we place more innocent people at a higher risk of an unjust death than we would if the state executed classes d and e with an occasional error i would rather be at a higher risk of being killed than actually killed by mistake though i do agree with the concept that the type d and e murderers are a massive waste of space and resources i don t agree with the concept killing is wrong if you kill we will punish you our punishment will be to kill you seems to be lacking in consistency i know is nothing more than i believe with pretentions
alt.atheism	re islam dress code for women in article apr ennews eas asu edu guncer enuxha eas asu edu selim guncer writes i wouldn t consider this quote as being exemplary of the islamic tm viewpoint though for all we know the prophet s cousin and the fourth khalif hazret i ali may have said this after a frustrating night with a woman that s very interesting i wonder are women s reactions recorded after a frustrating night with a man is that considered to be important jon
alt.atheism	re there must be a creator maybe in article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes in article apr bradford ac uk l newnham bradford ac uk leonard newnham writes deletions argument from incredulity has not been considered a valid form of reasoning since medieval times deletions interesting that you should mention that argument from incredulity has not been considered a valid form of reasoning since medieval times i quite agree why then do some atheists here engage in it more than a few times i have read posts where the atheists posting state that they cannot see how a gracious and loving god can allow such evil and suffering to occur as we see on the earth simply because they cannot envision it it must not be true if this is not an argument from incredulity i don t know what is as you have presented it it is indeed an argument from incredulity however from what i have seen it is not often presented in this manner it is usually presented more in the form and besides i cannot see nor have i ever been offered a convincing explanation moreover it is not unreasonable to ask for an explanation for such phenomena that theism does not provide a convincing explanation is not an argument in theism s favor especially when different theisms offer different explanations and even different adherents of what is purportedly the same theism give different explanations god has far more complex motivations and reasons for action or non action than to simply fix evil whenever and however it occurs or even before it occurs and yet it is this very same argument from incredulity which ranks high among reasons why atheists in general reject god and in particular the christian god not im my experience in my experience the most common reason is the lack of evidence in theism s favor you mileage may vary this seems to be the universal bane of human reasoning and rationality to wit that it is far easier to see the logical fallacy or inept reasoning on the part of one s opponents than it is to see it in oneself oh heck i ll be snide this once it s also fairly easy to attack arguments that are not made i e strawmen as one man of wisdom put it take the log out of your own eye before you try to remove the splinter from your neighbor s eye sage advice indeed sincerely raymond ingles ingles engin umich edu an apple every eight hours keeps three doctors away b kliban
alt.atheism	re political atheists keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes mathew mathew mantis co uk writes perhaps we shouldn t imprision people if we could watch them closely instead the cost would probably be similar especially if we just implanted some sort of electronic device why wait until they commit the crime why not implant such devices in potential criminals like communists and atheists sorry i don t follow your reasoning you are proposing to punish people before they commit a crime what justification do you have for this no mathew is proposing a public defence mechanism not treating the electronic device as an impropriety on the wearer what he is saying is that the next step beyond what you propose is the permanent bugging of potential criminals this may not on the surface sound like a bad thing but who defines what a potential criminal is if the government of the day decides that being a member of an opposition party makes you a potential criminal then openly defying the government becomes a lethal practice this is not conducive to a free society mathew is saying that implanting electronic surveillance devices upon people is an impropriety upon that person regardless of what type of crime or what chance of recidivism there is basically you see the criminal justice system as a punishment for the offender and possibly therefore a deterrant to future offenders mathew sees it most probably as a means of rehabilitation for the offender so he was being cynical at you okay jeff
alt.atheism	re a little too satanic in article mimsy umd edu mangoe cs umd edu charley wingate writes nanci ann miller writes the corrupted over and over theory is pretty weak comparison of the current hebrew text with old versions and translations shows that the text has in fact changed very little over a space of some two millennia this shouldn t be all that suprising people who believe in a text in this manner are likely to makes some pains to make good copies tell it to king james mate c wingate the peace of god it is no peace but strife closed in the sod mangoe cs umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace of god john burke jdb summa tamu edu
alt.atheism	re islamic marriage date tue apr gmt from f karner karner austin ibm com in article apr cadence com mas cadence com masud khan writes in article c qav wg austin ibm com karner austin ibm com f karner writes okay so you want me to name names there are obviously no official records of these pseudo marriages because they are performed for convenience what happens typically is that the woman is willing to move in with her lover without any scruples or legal contracts to speak of the man is merely utilizing a loophole by entering into a temporary religious marriage contract in order to have sex nobody complains nobody cares nobody needs to know perhaps you should alert your imam it could be that this practice is far more widespread than you may think or maybe it takes muslim men to witness the penetration to decide if the practice exists again you astound me with the level of ignorance you display muslims are not allowed to enter temporary marriages got that there is no evidence for it it an outlawed practise so get your facts straight buddy give me references for it or just tell everyone you were lying it is not a widespread as you may think fantasise in fact contrary to your fantasies it is not practised at all amongst muslims did you miss my post on this topic with the quote from the indonesian handbook and fred rice s comments about temporary marriages if so i will be glad to repost them will you accept that it just may be a practice among some muslims if i do or will you continue to claim that we are all lying and that it is not practised at all amongst muslims i don t think f karner has to tell everyone anything least of all that he is lying since you obviously know nothing about this practice there is very little you can contribute to the discussion except to accuse everyone of lying perhaps it is your ignorance which is showing learn more about islam learn more about muslims open your eyes maybe you will also see some of the things the atheists see
alt.atheism	re don t more innocents die without the death penalty in article chrisb baarnie chrisb tafe sa edu au chris bell writes killing is wrong if you kill we will punish you our punishment will be to kill you seems to be lacking in consistency not any more so than holding people against their will is wrong if you hold people against their will we will punish you our punishment will be to hold you against your will is there any punishment which isn t something which if done by a private person to another private person for no apparent reason would lead to punishment fines i suppose jim lippard lippard ccit arizona edu dept of philosophy lippard arizvms bitnet university of arizona tucson az
alt.atheism	re a visit from the jehovah s witnesses in article kmr po cwru edu kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes in article suopanki apr stekt oulu fi suopanki stekt oulu fi heikki t suopanki writes god is eternal a b jesus is god c a therefore jesus is eternal c b this works both logically and mathematically god is of the set of things which are eternal jesus is a subset of god therefore jesus belongs to the set of things which are eternal the first premise and the conclusion are not properly translated as identity statements since the is in those statements is the is of predication rather than of identity instead they should be translated using a predicate letter using g to designate god and j to designate jesus and the predicate letter e for the property of being eternal the first premise is eg and the conclusion is ej the second premise appears to contain an is of identity in which case it can be properly symbolized as j g but your remark that jesus is a subset of god suggests that strict identity is not desired here if however the first premise means that all members making up the set god have the property of being eternal the same conclusion follows jim lippard lippard ccit arizona edu dept of philosophy lippard arizvms bitnet university of arizona tucson az
alt.atheism	re a visit from the jehovah s witnesses in article chrisb baarnie chrisb tafe sa edu au chris bell writes jbrown batman bmd trw com writes my syllogism is of the form a is b c is a therefore c is b this is a logically valid construction your syllogism however is of the form a is b c is b therefore c is a therefore yours is a logically invalid construction and your comments don t apply if all of those are is s of identity both syllogisms are valid if however b is a predicate then the second syllogism is invalid the first syllogism as you have pointed out is valid whether b is a predicate or designates an individual jim lippard lippard ccit arizona edu dept of philosophy lippard arizvms bitnet university of arizona tucson az
alt.atheism	re soc motss et al princeton axes matching funds for boy scouts student writes somewhere roger colin shouse writes about radical gay dogma somewhere else he claims not to claim to have a claim to knowing those he doesn t know there are at least twenty instances of this kind of muddleheaded fourth reich sophistique shit in his postings maybe more in fact i m not sure the instances could be counted because they reproduce like a virus the more you consider his words my question is this what is the best response to weasels like shouse and stan krieger possibilities a study them dispassionately and figure out how they work then remember what you ve learned so as to combat them when they or their clones get into office contribute your insights to your favorite abnormal psych ward b learn to overcome your repugnance for serial murder this posting is totally uncalled for in rec scouting the point has been raised and has been answered roger and i have clearly stated our support of the bsa position on the issue specifically that homosexual behavior constitutes a violation of the scout oath specifically the promise to live morally straight there is really nothing else to discuss trying to cloud the issue with comparisons to blacks or other minorities is also meaningless because it s like comparing apples to oranges i e people can t control their race but they can control their behavior what else is there to possibly discuss on rec scouting on this issue nobody including bsa is denying anybody the right to live and or worship as they please or don t please but it doesn t mean that bsa is the big bad wolf for adhering to the recognized positive religious and moral standards on which our society has been established and on which it should continue to be based stan krieger all opinions advice or suggestions even unix system laboratories if related to my employment are my own summit nj smk usl com
alt.atheism	re a little too satanic in article mimsy umd edu mangoe cs umd edu charley wingate writes pnanci ann miller writes p p my favorite reply to the you are being too literal minded complaint is p that if the bible is really inspired by god and if it is really that p important to him then he would make damn certain all the translators and p scribes and people interpreting and copying it were getting it right p literally if not then why should i put any merit at all in something p that has been corrupted over and over and over by man even if it was p originally inspired by god p pthe corrupted over and over theory is pretty weak comparison of the pcurrent hebrew text with old versions and translations shows that the text phas in fact changed very little over a space of some two millennia this pshouldn t be all that suprising people who believe in a text in this manner pare likely to makes some pains to make good copies well corrupted the first time is good enough seeing that the bible was constructed years after jesus s death in the text of merchants ie owe this and owe that i wonder how anyone can take the literal word seriously obviously it was not intended for such nonsense otherwise the authors of the bible would not need to plagerize sp off of the asians for most of the contents that can be interperated to make sense
alt.atheism	re americans and evolution p my atheism is incidental and the question of god is trivial p p but p p it matters a great deal to me when idiots try to force their belief on me p when they try to enforce their creation myths to be taught as scientific p fact in school when they tell me i can have no morals because morals are p from god when a successful presidential candidate says that an atheist p shouldn t be considered a citizen and couldn t be patriotic because after p all this is one nation under god when the fundies try to take over the p party that may well provide the next president of the united states of p america so that they can force their beliefs on the rest of the country p et cetera p p that s why i subscribe to alt atheism p p and in the middle of this people who aren t mind readers pop up on p alt atheism to tell me what i do or don t believe or to concoct some p straw man reason why i don t share their particular belief p p you think i should just accept this p p this isn t particularly a dig at fundamentalist christians i have been p told on alt atheism that i reject allah because i am too proud to embrace p islam and that i reject krishna because my eyes are closed but most of p the religious nuts who post on alt atheism are some kind of militant p christian who can t accept that others don t share their beliefs this p kind of stuff should be kept on talk religion misc where it belongs p p atheism isn t a belief it s the absence of belief in any gods p p p do you have a problem with this p p p bill pfirst i would like to say that atheism is in fact a belief it is a beilief pbecause a belief in something you hold to with ador and faith an atheist says there are no gods this cannot be proven therefore you are excepting this on pfaith alone that is a belief secondly you complain so much about how the pfundamental christians are trying to force their beliefs on you but you don t pmention anything about how the atheists such as madamme murry o hare founder pof the atheists association in austin texas and robert sherman from the chicago area have been trying to force their beliefs on everyone by trying to get rid of god from our society by banning religious paintings from parks during chistmas forcing cities to change their town seals if there is any mention of god in it like sherman has done or trying to get the slogan in god we trust off of the american currency you also talk about creation myths as if they are in fact myths and tha p p p phave concrete evidece of this you probably pdon t and that just enforces my point that your atheism is just as much belief as my christianity if this is not so please do show me why it isn t pmark covalt the only real problem i have with the argument of christianity is that they seem to ignore their origin that being asiatic in origin as soon as christians become the good non ego centric buddhists they are supposed to be then i might listen my opinion i speak not for my place of employment but i should christ was over rated and will the atf follow koresh the current christ through his ascention to heaven
alt.atheism	re alt atheism faq introduction to atheism i have an addition to the faq regarding why are there no atheist hospitals if i recall correctly johns hopkins was built to provide medical services without the backing of a religious group thus making it a hospital dedicated to the glory of weak atheism might someone check up on this brian evans bad mood bad mood sure i m in a bad mood bevans carina unm edu i haven t had sex ever virgin mary
alt.atheism	re theists posting in article c ux aic ra nrl navy mil khan itd itd nrl navy mil umar khan writes stuff deleted is there a concordance for the faq which translation is considered most authoritative is there an orthodox commentary for the faq available is there one faq for militant atheists and another for moderate atheists or do you all read from the same faq if so how do you resolve differences of interpretation hmmmmmmmmmmmm i can put the same question to followers of any religion how do you moslems resolve differences of opinion don t tell me that there is one interpretation of the quran read the soc culture newsgroups you will zillions of different interpretations naren naren tekig pen tek com all standard disclaimers apply
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by atheism snm ultb isc rit edu s n mozumder writes more horrible deaths resulted from atheism than anything else list of killings in the name of religion iran iraq war civil war in sudan riots in india pakistan in massacares in bangladesh in inquistions in america in s x million x crusades i am sure that people can add a lot more to the list i wonder what bobby has to say about the above standard excuses will not be accepted naren all standard disclaimers apply
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by atheism nanci ann miller nm w andrew cmu edu writes snm ultb isc rit edu s n mozumder writes more horrible deaths resulted from atheism than anything else there are definitely quite a few horrible deaths as the result of both atheists and theists perhaps since i m a bit weak on history somone here would like to give a list of wars caused led by theists this thread seems to be arguing the validity of a religious viewpoint according to some utilitarian principle i e atheism religion is wrong because it causes death the underlying moral is that death is wrong this is a rather arbitrary measure of validity get some epistemology richard harlequin com internet richard harlequin co uk internet rptb uk ac cambridge phoenix janet zen buddhist
alt.atheism	re radical agnostic not reply to zazen austin ibm com e h welbon there is no means that i can possibly think of to prove beyond doubt that a god does not exist but if anyone has one by all means tell me what it is therefore lacking this ability of absolute proof being an atheist becomes an act of faith in and of itself and this i cannot accept i accept nothing on blind faith invisible pink flying unicorns need i say more i harbor no beliefs at all there is no good evidence for god existing or not some folks call this agnosticism it does not suffer from blind faith at all i think of it as don t worry be happy for many atheists the lack of belief in gods is secondary to an epistemological consideration what do we accept as a reliable way of knowing there are no known valid logical arguments for the existence of gods nor is there any empirical evidence that they exist most philosophers and theologians agree that the idea of a god is one that must be accepted on faith faith is belief without a sound logical basis or empirical evidence it is a reliable way of knowing there is probably nothing else most people would accept in the absence of any possibility of proof even when we agree to take someone elses word on faith we just mean that having found this person to be reliable in the past we judge him likely to be a reliable source now if we find faith less reliable than logic and empirical evidence everywhere else why assume it will provide reliable knowledge about gods the difference between the atheist and the theist is fundamentally then one of whether or not faith is held to be a reliable way of knowing rather than as some agnostic posters would have it whether ones faith is in gods or no gods the theist believes that faith is an acceptable basis for a belief in gods even if he rejects faith as reliable at other times for example in his work as a scientist the atheist believes that only logic and empirical evidence lead to reliable knowledge agnosticism seems to me a less defensible position than theism or atheism unless one is a sceptic in regards to all other knowledge without evidence why should we believe in gods rather than santa claus or the easter bunny i would also like to point out as others have that the atheist doesn t require absolute knowledge of the lack of gods i don t believe that there is any such thing as absolute knowledge atheism is the best and simplest theory to fit the lack of facts and so should be held until contrary evidence is found david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire wi this is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities bertrand russell
alt.atheism	re is keith as ignorant as he seems mam mouse cmhnet org mike mcangus writes no everything wouldn t be ok but it would be a start now wait if the religious organizations were no longer tax exempt what other beef could you have they would then have as much right to lobby as would any other group you asked would everything be okay i answered no everything encompasses more than just the tax exempt status of religious organizations well if everything wouldn t be okay then tell us what it is that wouldn t be okay that is if religions were no longer tax exempt then what would be wrong with their lobbying or otherwise attempting to influence politics keith
alt.atheism	re keith schneider stealth poster mam mouse cmhnet org mike mcangus writes let me see if i understand what you are saying in order to talk knowledgeably about religion atheists must first have been so immersed in a religion that only the rare individual could have left no you don t understand i said that i don t think people can discuss the subjective merits of religion objectively this should be obvious people here have said that everyone would be better off without religion but this almost certainly isn t true but really are you threatened by the motto or by the people that use it the motto is a tool let s try to take away the tool but guns and axes are tools both of which have been used for murder should both be taken away that is to say i don t think motto misuse warrants its removal at least not in this case keith
alt.atheism	re keith schneider stealth poster cmtan iss nus sg tan chade meng dan writes i somewhat agree with u however what it comes to theist religion it s a different matter that s because religion is like a drug once u use it it s very difficult to get out of it that s because in order to experience a religion u necessarily have to have blind faith and once u have the blind faith it s very diffcult for you to reason yourself back to atheism again therefore it s unreasonable to ask people to try religion in order to judge it it s like asking people to try dying to find out what death is like well now we can t judge death until we are dead right so why should we judge religion without having experienced it people have said that religion is bad by any account and that it is in no way useful etc but i don t totally agree with this of course we cannot really say how the religious folk would act had they not been exposed to religion but some people at least seemed to be helped in some ways by it so basically we can not judge whether religion is the right route for a given individual or even for a general population we can say that it is not best for us personally at least you can choose not to use religion might be hard to try to find out its benefits as you state above keith
alt.atheism	re political atheists mmwang adobe com michael wang writes i was looking for a rigorous definition because otherwise we would be spending the rest of our lives arguing what a christian really believes i don t think we need to argue about this ks do you think that the motto points out that this country is proud ks of its freedom of religion and that this is something that ks distinguishes us from many other countries mw no ks well your opinion is not shared by most people i gather perhaps not but that is because those seeking to make government recognize christianity as the dominant religion in this country do not think they are infringing on the rights of others who do not share their beliefs yes but also many people who are not trying to make government recognize christianity as the dominant religion in this country do no think the motto infringes upon the rights of others who do not share their beliefs and actually i think that the government already does recognize that christianity is the dominant religion in this country i mean it is don t you realize recognize this this isn t to say that we are supposed to believe the teachings of christianity just that most people do like i ve said before i personally don t think the motto is a major concern if you agree with me then what are we discussing ks since most people don t seem to associate christmas with jesus much ks anymore i don t see what the problem is can you prove your assertion that most people in the u s don t associate christmas with jesus anymore no but i hear quite a bit about christmas and little if anything about jesus wouldn t this figure be more prominent if the holiday were really associated to a high degree with him or are you saying that the association with jesus is on a personal level and that everyone thinks about it but just never talks about it that is can you prove that most people do associate christmas most importantly with jesus anyways the point again is that there are people who do associate christmas with jesus it doesn t matter if these people are a majority or not i think the numbers do matter it takes a majority or at least a majority of those in power to discriminate doesn t it keith
alt.atheism	re political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes the probability that the automobile system will kill someone innocent in an accident goes asymptotically close to just like the court system however anyone who doesn t like the automobile system can opt out as i have this isn t true many people are forced to use the automobile system i certainly don t use it by choice if there were other ways of getting around i d do it secondly we do try to make the automobile system as safe as possible because we do recognize the danger to the innocent whereas the us the current example is not trying to make the court system safer which it could fairly easily do by replacing fatal punishments with non fatal punishments but i think that the court system has been refined over hundreds of years in the us britain and other countries we have tried to make it as fair as possible can it be made better without removing the death penalty besides life imprisonment sounds like a fatal punishment to me keith
alt.atheism	re political atheists dace shrike und ac za roy dace writes keith allan schneider keith cco caltech edu wrote some soldiers are dependent on religion for a number of purposes and some are no doubt dependent on cocaine yet i don t see the military paying for coca fields while religion certainly has some benefits in a combat situation what are the benefits of cocaine keith
alt.atheism	re pompous ass mvs psuvm psu edu writes many people would probably think especially if the fanatics propogandized this that this was a conflict between the atheists and the religious many would get the impression that we were trying to outlaw religion if we contintue to try to remove all things with a religious reference that s not what the people i ve asked think perhaps you would be right if you said the fundamentalists would think this way after all they think they are being oppressed when they are not allowed to oppress however you have not shown where you get this idea that many people would probably think it s atheism vs religion winner take all as far as i can tell it is your groundless prediction that this will happen but you haven t taken into the account of propoganda remember if you asked germans before wwii if the jews shoudl be slaughtered they would probably answer no but after the propoganda machine rolled through at least some were able to tolerate it you see it only takes a small group of fanatics to whip up a general frenzy the propoganda machines have been in gear over a number of issues including abortion and gays look at some of the things that have happened well so far they have passed one amendment which is currently under intense scrutiny and they have failed to outlaw abortion which is their prime goal on that issue yep they seem sooo effective sure well they haven t managed to outlaw abortion due to the possible objectivity of the courts but they have managed to create quite a few problems for people that wanted to have an abortion they could create similar problems for us and it could be worse they can try to stop abortions by blocking clinics etc but imagine what they d have to do to stop atheism besides the margin of error is very large when you only talk to two people better than your one that is your opinion also i have branched out and the informal survey is up over half a dozen now and what have they said were you questions unbiased keith you would claim that my questions are biased the minute i posted them because the answers agreed with me everyone i have asked about the possible removal of the motto the christian portion has expressed regret about its loss because they like it however when it is pointed out to them that a new motto will not be in the works none have expressed the desire to rape murder pillage etc which you have basically claimed so you are able to convince them individually but could you convince a whole room of them a whole nation as for the atheist portion i know some around here they have all expressed disgust with the motto some noted being harassed by christians who used the motto to try to seem justified and all would see it gone yes i d be glad if it were gone to i ve never supported it however i think that it is a minor problem that can be easily ignored contrasted with what could happen an what may be likely which christians designed the motto does the motto say anything about jesus why do you think that it refers only to christians christians wrote it christians think that their religion is right and all others are wrong therefore why would they include other religions in the realm of being correct i doubt that any other religions were meant to be included well i am not clear on the religious convictions of francis scott key the motto can be attributed to him but it is at least clear that he believed in a god and surely there are a few christians that think as you say but i don t think that most do do you think that all christians actively despise other religions most that i have met haven t and don t do so no christian that i have queried thinks it means anything but them and only them why not ask some people of other faiths sorry i would but christianity is just so awfully popular around here suppose you could ask a few people well i have asked a hindu moselem and a few jews and all of them think that it is applicable to them of course i can t say that these people just some that i know pretty well are accurate representations of their faiths it is always a good idea to assume that there were dissenting views on any given issue you are assuming that all the views were the same and nothing leads to this conclusion without evidence to the contrary i doubt that there were dissenting opinions you claim there were provide some evidence for your assertion well i d really like to and i ve tried but i really don t know where to get access to congressional records from the s can anyone help out here comparing christians to nazis interesting only in the sense that neither can probably convinced to change their beliefs no again the motto on the money doesn t cost you anything extra however if you abolished the motto we d all have to pay to have all the dies and plates redone like people paid before to get them changed to have the motto on them you now need to show that there is a good reason to change everything again also i doubt that they use th same plates for more than a year s printing this would make it easy to remove the motto simply make next year s plates without it your claim evidently is that they will have to pay extra somewhere provide some evidence for this assertion so are you saying that they redesign the plates each year anyway your whole argument conveniently deleted i see was that the motto somehow costs us all a lot of money this is just not correct the ones i read didn t mention anything about jesus i think the issue was concerning the distinction between religion and not how could it be between religious and not religious the motto refers to god it is a religious motto the question is whether or not it is only christian you say it is more i doubt this provide some evidence for this assertion that is to say the religion of this country and the non religion of the ussr that was what most of those quotes were about and some included all atheists in general as well i don t think that any of the quotes although i seem to have lost them mentioned anything at all about jesus they advocated religion over non religion a specific religion was not mentioned you have missed this point i said that the motto didn t say anything about anyone in particular that is the motto doesn t imply anything about your particular beliefs it doesn t say that everyone trusts in some form of god only that the nation on the whole does we have been through this before it s obvious it does not include me this much is beyond doubt your claim again is that the motto refers to more than christians based on the facts that christianity says all other religions are wrong and because it seems that the motto was written by christians i doubt your claim so you are saying that all christians must believe that all other religions should be outlawed just because they think they are wrong that s silly i think the flat earthers are wrong but i don t advocate their banishment based on this idea i doubt that any additional expense would even be incurred by removing the motto provide some evidence for your claim that it would i think that any such cost would be insignificant i mentioned the slight cost because you said that the motto was costing us a lot of money by being on our currency disregarding the digression of the other motto if it is used for harassment and no other purpose has been found for it why should it not be removed well mottos in general don t really have purposes i don t think it should be removed because i think the benefit would be outweighed by the consequences and do you know what the vote was were there other opinions do you think that the main reason the motto was required by law was to bother atheists do you think that this is what the majority of congress at the time had in mind if you do then show why again it is the opinion of the people who put it there that i am concerned with then you should be concerned with the opinion of the entire congress again it is not necessary that the complete majority shared the purpose of confronting godless communism with this motto why not it is the majority that put it there the general public probably does not know about the anti atheist intent of a few people in the s either i daresay more people remember the s than the time when key wrote the anthem but do they remember the debate surrounding the motto do they remember that some people intended it to be a message against atheists why don t you include this in your little survey that you were conducting you claim here that scientists would believe someone s claims i doubt this provide evidence for your assertion what should i ask some scientists the probability that something einstein said about relativity is worthy i mean if einstein said it there s a good chance that it was right at least at the time as for the courts the method scientists use can be applied i need not agree with the court by default because of a good record you need not agree with them all of the time but you would certainly think that their decisions would be good evidence in favor of some point what but you said you didn t agree with the court because they allowed congress to attempt to make an amendment prohibiting flag burning if you don t realize that something like this is external to the realm of the court s power then how can i be confident that you know anything about the court s powers i mean if you don t know how the court works how can you participate in a discussion of the court a judge can go to speak before congress and still you ignore the abortion gag rule as you make your claims on abortion no i think that it would be clearly inappropriate for a supreme court justice to testify before congress during the consideration of a constitutional amendment and in order for the court to rule on something a case usually must be presented mushrooms flowers trees buildings signs whatever the analogy is the same just because something that i might find offensive is present doesn t mean that my rights are being violated we are talking about something put there by people keith not a mushroom no one caused that mushroom to exist unless you re finding things offensive in a mushroom farm yes some mushrooms can be planted and i don t appreciate mushrooms on my pizza either this is not the case with the motto and you re ignoring the harassment which is the only known result of the motto and you re ignoring that somewhere along the line people were forced to put the motto there who was forced to put the motto there what do you mean keith
alt.atheism	re a visit from the jehovah s witnesses suopanki stekt oulu fi writes on apr mst jbrown batman bmd trw com said god is eternal a b jesus is god c a therefore jesus is eternal c b this works both logically and mathematically god is of the set of things which are eternal jesus is a subset of god therefore jesus belongs to the set of things which are eternal everything isn t always so logical mercedes is a car that girl is mercedes therefore that girl is a car unfortunately your phrasing is ambiguous re writing more carefully we have at least two possibilities the first things called mercedes are cars that girl is called mercedes therefore that girl is a car that is entirely valid as a piece of logical deduction it is not sound because the first statement is false similarly i would hold that jim s example is valid but not sound another possible interpretation of what you wrote is there exists at least one car called mercedes that girl is called mercedes therefore that girl is a car which isn t valid mathew
alt.atheism	re political atheists keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes mathew mathew mantis co uk writes perhaps we shouldn t imprision people if we could watch them closely instead the cost would probably be similar especially if we just implanted some sort of electronic device why wait until they commit the crime why not implant such devices in potential criminals like communists and atheists sorry i don t follow your reasoning you are proposing to punish people before they commit a crime what justification do you have for this look up irony keith mathew
alt.atheism	re political atheists keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes mathew mathew mantis co uk writes as for rape surely there the burden of guilt is solely on the rapist not so if you are thrown into a cage with a tiger and get mauled do you blame the tiger as far as i know tigers are not sentient if i were pushed into a pool with some dolphins and they attacked me i might be inclined to blame the dolphins rather than the person doing the pushing as a dolphins are not usually aggressive and b they seem to have well developed brains and a capacity for abstract thought as a matter of fact tigers rarely attack humans unless the human provokes them of course if they are in a cage which is far too small that might count as provocation mathew
alt.atheism	re political atheists kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes i am almost sure that zyklon b is immediate and painless method of death if not insert soem other form and ethnic and minority groups have been killed mutilated and exterminated through out history so i guess it was not unusual so you would agree that the holocost would be allowed under the us constitution in so far the punishment i doubt they recieved what would be considered a fair trial by us standards don t be so sure look what happened to japanese citizens in the us during world war ii if you re prepared to say let s round these people up and stick them in a concentration camp without trial it s only a short step to gassing them without trial after all it seems that the nazis originally only intended to imprison the jews the final solution was dreamt up partly because they couldn t afford to run the camps because of the devastation caused by goering s total war those who weren t gassed generally died of malnutrition or disease mathew
alt.atheism	re atheist i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau writes in article ii i b w w mantis co uk tony lezard tony mantis co uk writes deletion my opinion is that the strong atheist position requires too much belief for me to be comfortable with any strong atheists out there care to comment humans just come up with the idea of a spiritual parent it is one of the artifacts of human thought the evidence for that is quite overwhelming and the information content of the conceived is vanishing in other words if there were gods they would hardly make sense and it is possible to explain the phenomenon of religion without gods the concept is useless and i don t have to introduce new assumptions in order to show that no leap of faith required for me your mileage may vary yes i fully agree with that but is it i don t believe gods exist or i believe no gods exist as mandtbacka finabo abo fi mats andtbacka pointed out it all hinges on what you take the word believe to mean unfortunately this is bound up in the definitions of strong and weak atheism at least according to the faq atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the existence of god some atheists go further and believe that god does not exist the former is often referred to as the weak atheist position and the latter as strong atheism it is important to note the difference between these two positions weak atheism is simple scepticism disbelief in the existence of god strong atheism is a positive belief that god does not exist please do not fall into the trap of assuming that all atheists are strong atheists from mathew s an introduction to atheism version last modified apr should the faq be clarified to try to pin down this notion of belief can it tony lezard is tony mantis co uk or tony mantis co uk uknet ac uk or things like tony uk co mantis uk ac nsfnet relay or last resort arl phx cam ac uk pgp public key available on request
alt.atheism	re political atheists mccullou snake cs wisc edu mark mccullough writes i think you mean circular not recursive but that is semantics recursiveness has no problems it is just horribly inefficient just ask any assembly programmer tail recursive functions in scheme are at least as efficient as iterative loops anyone who doesn t program in assembler will have heard of optimizing compilers mathew
alt.atheism	re an anecdote about islam in bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu writes deletia i don t understand the point of this petty sarcasm it is a basic principle of islam that if one is born muslim or one says i testify that there is no god but god and mohammad is a prophet of god that so long as one does not explicitly reject islam by word then one must be considered muslim by all muslims so the phenomenon you re attempting to make into a general rule or psychology is a direct odds with basic islamic principles if you want to attack islam you could do better than than to argue against something that islam explicitly contradicts in the deletions somewhere it mentioned something about chopping off of hands being a punishment for theft in saudi arabia assuming this is so i wouldn t know and assuming it is done by people fitting your requirement for muslim which i find highly likely then would you please try to convince bobby mozumder that muslims chop people s hands off come back when you ve succeeded disclaimer it s great to be young and insane
alt.atheism	a fundamental contradiction was a visit from jws jbrown batman bmd trw com writes will is self determination in other words god created conscious beings who have the ability to choose between moral choices independently of god all will therefore is free will the above is probably not the most representative paragraph but i thought i d hop on anyway what strikes me as self contradicting in the fable of lucifer s fall which by the way i seem to recall to be more speculation than based on biblical text but my ex rcism may be showing is that as benedikt pointed out lucifer had perfect nature yet he had the free will to choose evil but where did that choice come from we know from genesis that eve was offered an opportunity to sin by a tempter which many assume was satan but how did lucifer discover invent create call the action what you will something that god had not given origin to also where in the bible is there mention of lucifer s free will we make a big fuss about mankind having free will but it strikes me as being an after the fact rationalisation and in fact like salvation not one that all christians believe in identically at least in my mind salvation and free will are very tightly coupled but then my theology was roman catholic still how do theologian explain lucifer s fall if lucifer had perfect nature did man how could he fall how could he execute an act that a contradicted his nature and b in effect cause evil to exist for the first time lucio de re lucio proxima alt za tab stops at four
alt.atheism	re atheist tony lezard tony mantis co uk writes my opinion is that the strong atheist position requires too much belief for me to be comfortable with any strong atheists out there care to comment as far as i can tell strong atheists are far outnumbered on alt atheism by weak atheists at the cost of repudiating the faq i think too much is made of the strong vs weak atheism issue although in the context of alt atheism where we re continually attacked on the basis that strong atheists believe in the non existence of god i think the separation is a valid one to cover my arse what i m trying to say is that there is an infinitely grey area between weak and strong as well as between strong and the unattainable mathematical atheism i wish whereas i logically can only support the weak atheist position in effect i am a strong atheist and wish i could be a mathematical one to justify my strong atheist position i believe i need only show that the evidence presented in favour of any of the gods under scrutiny is faulty if i read the faq correctly no argument for the existence of god generic as represented by mainstream theologians has ever been found to be unassailable to me this is adequate evidence that the real god is undefinable or at least no definition has yet been found to be watertight which in turn i accept as sufficient to base a disbelief in each and every conceivable god i m a little fuzzy on the edges though so opinions are welcome but perhaps we should change the thread subject lucio de re lucio proxima alt za tab stops at four
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie re an anecdote about islam jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes why would the rushdie case be particularly legitimate as i ve said elsewhere on this issue rushdie s actions had effects in islamic countries so that it is not so simple to say that he didn t commit a crime in an islamic country actually it is simple a person p has committed a crime c in country x if p was within the borders of x at the time when c was committed it doesn t matter if the physical manifestation of c is outside x for instance if i hack into nasa s ames research lab and delete all their files i have committed a crime in the united kingdom if the us authorities wish to prosecute me under us law rather than uk law they have no automatic right to do so this is why the net authorities in the us tried to put pressure on some sites in holland holland had no anti cracking legislation and so it was viewed as a hacker haven by some us system administrators similarly a company called red hot television is broadcasting pornographic material which can be received in britain if they were broadcasting in britain they would be committing a crime but they are not they are broadcasting from denmark so the british government is powerless to do anything about it in spite of the apparent law breaking of course i m not a lawyer so i could be wrong more confusingly i could be right in some countries but not in others mathew
alt.atheism	re an anecdote about islam in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes in cases of prostitution both the man and the prostitute would be punished in public quite severely deletion no gregg you cannot say a is lenient and a punishes severely in public unless of course it is one of the exceptions implied by almost all matters that depends on the statistics and who is punished in public if some power for example nothing islamic about it allows men to rape women five times before blowing the rapist s head off in public then i d call that leniency wouldn t you you have given that example it is not lenient end of argument and chopping off the hands or heads of people is not lenient either it rather appears that you are internalized the claims about the legal system without checking if they suit the description and wasn t the argument that it takes five men to rape a woman according to islamic law while i don t approve of it i think both the prostitute and the customer have the right to do what they do in other words punishing them is a violation of their rights and to punish them severely in public is just another pointer to the hysteria connected with sexuality in so many religions believe what you like no i even believe what i don t like can you give better answers than that have you got any evidence for your probably opposite claims in this case i don t see why i should accept the complex ridden views of an oriental goatherd ah yes i forget that the west is historically so much without sexual neurosis oriental goatherd really intellectual a fact if memory serves and most will see the connection between the primitive machism in the orient and in islam if people agree on having sex it is fine and i would assume that a god would have a clue of what the detrimental effects of supressing it are huh ever heard of aids of course you ll probably go on to say that god must be evil because he allows the disease to exist bla bla as usually you miss the point aids is neither spread only through sex nor necessarily spread by having sex futher the point is a very important point the urge for sex is stronger than the fear of aids it is even stronger than the religious attempts to channel or to forbid sex the consequences of suppressing sex are worse than the consequences of aids please note that the idea that everybody would end up with aids when sex is not controlled is completely counterfactual and since you have brought up the point is your god evil or not benedikt
alt.atheism	re biblical rape in article apr watson ibm com strom watson ibm com rob strom writes in article ba f c i dbstu rz tu bs de i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau writes i didn t have time to read the rest of the posting but i had to respond to this i am absolutely not a messianic jew another mistake sorry i should have read alt messianic more carefully benedikt
alt.atheism	re soc motss et al princeton axes matching funds for boy scouts in article apr midway uchicago edu shou midway uchicago edu writes in article pi dhinn ub dsi dsinc com perry dsinc com jim perry writes bigots never concede that their bigotry is irrational it is other people who determine that by examining their arguments no i expected it you ve set yourself up a wonderful little world where a bigot is whomever you say it is this is very comfortable for you imagine never having to entertain an argument against your belief system simply accuse the person making of being a bigot well this particular thread of vituperation slopped its venom over into alt atheism where we spend most of our time entertaining arguments against our belief system without resorting to accusing others of bigotry it s somewhat ironic that our exposure to bigotry happens in this instance to have originated in rec scouting since i always understood scouting to teach tolerance and diversity i understand bigotry to be irrational prejudice against other people who happen to be of a different race religion ethnic background sex or other inconsequential characteristics all the evidence i ve seen indicates that sexual orientation and lack of belief in gods are exactly such inconsequential characteristics thus pending further evidence i conclude that those who show prejudice against such people are bigots and organizations that exclude such people are discriminatory jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews nc these are my opinions for a nominal fee they can be yours
alt.atheism	re americans and evolution in article pq tinn lp senator bedfellow mit edu bobs thnext mit edu robert singleton writes deletion i will argue that your latter statement i believe that no gods exist does rest upon faith that is if you are making a positive statement that no gods exist strong atheism rather than merely saying i don t know and therefore don t believe in them and don t not believe in then weak atheism once again to not believe in god is different than saying i believe that god does not exist i still maintain the position even after reading the faqs that strong atheism requires faith no it in the way it is usually used in my view you are saying here that driving a car requires faith that the car drives for me it is a conclusion and i have no more faith in it than i have in the premises and the argument used but first let me say the following we might have a language problem here in regards to faith and existence i as a christian maintain that god does not exist to exist means to have being in space and time god does not have being god is being kierkegaard once said that god does not exist he is eternal with this said i feel it s rather pointless to debate the so called existence of god and that is not what i m doing here i believe that god is the source and ground of being when you say that god does not exist i also accept this statement but we obviously mean two different things by it however in what follows i will use the phrase the existence of god in it s usual sense and this is the sense that i think you are using it i would like a clarification upon what you mean by the existence of god no that s a word game the term god is used in a different way usually when you use a different definition it is your thing but until it is commonly accepted you would have to say the way i define god is and that does not exist it is existence itself so i say it does not exist interestingly there are those who say that existence exists is one of the indubitable statements possible further saying god is existence is either a waste of time existence is already used and there is no need to replace it by god or you are implying more with it in which case your definition and your argument so far are incomplete making it a fallacy deletion one can never prove that god does or does not exist when you say that you believe god does not exist and that this is an opinion based upon observation i will have to ask what observtions are you refering to there are no observations pro or con that are valid here in establishing a positive belief deletion where does that follow aren t observations based on the assumption that something exists and wouldn t you say there is a level of definition that the assumption god is is meaningful if not i would reject that concept anyway so where is your evidence for that god is is meaningful at some level benedikt
alt.atheism	re is morality constant was re biblical rape this frayed thread has turned into a patented alt atheism on ping pong game and i don t have any strong disagreement so i ll try to stick to the one thing i don t quite follow about the argument it seems to me that there is a contradiction in arguing that the bible was enlightened for its times i e closer to what we would consider morally good based on our standards and past experience on the one hand i hope this summarizes this argument adequately and on the other hand in article apr watson ibm com strom watson ibm com rob strom writes in article phpe inn g dsi dsinc com perry dsinc com jim perry writes disclaimer i m speaking from the jewish perspective where the bible means what many call the old testament and where the interpretation is not necessarily the raw text but instead the court cases commentaries and traditions passed down through jewish communities this seems the crux to me if you judge the bible according to a long line of traditions and interpretations coming down to the current day rather than on its own merits as a cultural artifact then of course it will correspond more closely with more contemporary values but if that s how the bible is actually being used today shouldn t that be how we should judge it if most people use scissors to cut paper shouldn t consumer s reports test scissors for paper cutting ability even though scissors may have been designed originally to cut cloth that s possibly a good way to judge the use of the bible in teaching jewish morality today but it hardly seems fair to claim that this highly interpreted version is what was enlightened for its times to attempt to extend the analogy this is like saying that the original scissor makers were unusually advanced at paper cutting for their times even though they only ever cut cloth and had never even heard of paper i m not arguing that the bible is disgusting though some of the history depicted in it is by modern standards however history is full of similar abuses and i don t think the biblical accounts are worse than their contemporaries or possibly ours on the other hand i don t know of any reason to think the history described in the bible shows less abuse than their contemporaries or ours that complex and benign moral traditions have evolved based on particular mythic interpretations of that history is interesting but i still don t think it fair to take that long tradition of interpretation and use it to attack condemnation of the original history jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews nc these are my opinions for a nominal fee they can be yours
alt.atheism	re political atheists mathew mathew mantis co uk writes as for rape surely there the burden of guilt is solely on the rapist unless you force someone to live with the rapist against his will in which case part of the responsibility is yours i m sorry but i can t accept that unless the rapist was hypnotized or something i view him as solely responsible for his actions not necessarily especially if the rapist is known as such for instance if you intentionally stick your finger into a loaded mousetrap and get snapped whose fault is it keith
alt.atheism	re islamic authority over women in article apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu s n mozumder writes one thing that relates is among navy men that get tatoos that say mom because of the love of their mom it makes for more virile men compare that with how homos are raised do a study and you will get my point oh bobby you re priceless did i ever tell you that my policy with bobby s posts should anyone give a damn is to flick through the thread at high speed searching for posts of bobby s which have generated a whole pile of followups then go in and extract the hilarious quote inevitably present for sig purposes works for me for the guy who said he s just arrived and asked whether bobby s for real you betcha welcome to alt atheism and rest assured that it gets worse i have a few pearls of wisdom from bobby which i reproduce below is anyone keith keeping a big file of such stuff in allah s infinite wisdom the universe was created from nothing just by saying be and it became therefore allah exists bobby mozumder proving the existence of allah wait you just said that humans are rarely reasonable doesn t that contradict atheism where everything is explained through logic and reason this is the contradiction in atheism that proves it false bobby mozumder proving the existence of allah plus to the believer it would be contradictory to the quran for allah not to exist bobby mozumder proving the existence of allah and now one thing that relates is among navy men that get tatoos that say mom because of the love of their mom it makes for more virile men compare that with how homos are raised do a study and you will get my point bobby mozumder being islamically rigorous on alt atheism mmmmm quality and quantity from the new voice of islam pbuh cheers simon simon clippingdale simon dcs warwick ac uk department of computer science tel university of warwick fax coventry cv al u k
alt.atheism	re soc motss et al princeton axes matching funds for boy scouts in article apr cbnewsl cb att com stank cbnewsl cb att com stan krieger writes the point has been raised and has been answered roger and i have clearly stated our support of the bsa position on the issue specifically that homosexual behavior constitutes a violation of the scout oath specifically the promise to live morally straight please define morally straight and don t even try saying that straight as it is used here implies only hetersexual behavior eg straight as in the slang word opposite to gay this is alot like family values everyone is talking about them but misteriously no one knows what they are one thing that relates is among navy men that get tatoos that say mom because of the love of their mom it makes for more virile men bobby mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu april the one true muslim left in the world
alt.atheism	re soc motss et al princeton axes matching funds for boy scouts in article apr cbnewsl cb att com stank cbnewsl cb att com stan krieger writes roger and i have clearly stated our support of the bsa position on the issue specifically that homosexual behavior constitutes a violation of the scout oath specifically the promise to live morally straight there is really nothing else to discuss apparently not in response to his claim that it terrifies gay people not to be able to indoctrinate children to our lifestyle or words to that effect i sent roger a very calm carefully written detailed letter explaining simply why the bsa policy does indeed terrify me i did not use inflammatory language and left myself extremely open for an answer thus far i have not received an answer i can conclude only that roger considers his position either indefensible or simply not worth defending trying to cloud the issue with comparisons to blacks or other minorities is also meaningless because it s like comparing apples to oranges i e people can t control their race but they can control their behavior in fact that s exactly the point people can control their behavior because of that fact there is no need for a blanket ban on homosexuals what else is there to possibly discuss on rec scouting on this issue you tell me tim pierce usted es la de la tele eh la madre twpierce unix amherst edu del asesino ay que graciosa bitnet twpierce amherst pedro almodovar
alt.atheism	re biblical rape in article apr watson ibm com strom watson ibm com rob strom writes deletion the thread biblical rape was initiated by david o hunt here is his posting in article feu ko xsf kpc p andrew cmu edu david o hunt bluelobster cmu edu writes i m pretty sure i ve seen biblical rules for when it s allowable to rape prisoners what the codes are about that etc could some more knowledgable soul than i please let me know some references he asked a very narrow question and i gave a very narrow answer yes sorry i have got that wrong my apology deletion no david hunt s post didn t mention a god nor did my response you were the first to bring up the idea of the bible being given by god most jews don t believe this in any literal sense so no fun but i must have met the minority then and given by god refers to any action whereby a god god causes or better effects something rob i am not intimate with jewish theology but i understand that you are a messianic jew correct me if i am wrong but it appears that the views of messianic jews on metaphysics is different to that of the majority of jews while jewish theology overall is quite distinct from the christianic god views i have heard that it is possible for jews to attribute evil to their god an no no for christians the bible is still seen as effect of the interaction of some god with man deletion no i thought we agreed that though jews disagree there are a set of core beliefs that they do agree upon one of which is that the commandments are accessible and written in the language of the time and another of which is that there must be a legal system to update them the context was metaphysics even when the process of adapting the commandments is not transcendent the justification of the process lie in metaphysic specualtion i wonder how you break out of the shackles of having metaphysics in your system deletion could you explain this with respect to the original commandments being discussed that is the commandment that says if you feel like raping a woman prisoner you should instead wait and marry her what about the way this commandment is given invalidates it is is in a book that commands to commit genocide among other reprehensible deeds the context is repulsive and it is foul play imo to invoke some relatively enlightened passages as an example for the content of the whole book big deletion the point is that i see that there is a necessary connection between the theology you use and the interpretation of the bible only very loosely my interpretation of the bible is based on a long tradition of jewish scholars interpreting the bible theology doesn t really enter into it there are jewish atheists who interpret the laws of charity essentially the same way i do no not the interpretation of some laws but the interpretation of the bible as in the example that sodom and gomorrha mean argue with god the whole idea that it is metaphorically and yet allows you to argue with a god whatever that means that alone is a theo logic question is proof of a theology used you pose another metaphysical riddle no you do well you wrote this fine so we have some major spirit with neither absolute power nor absolute knowledge and as it appears limited means or will to communicate with us some form of spiritual big friend do you admit that using god in this context is somewhat unusual am i right in the assumption that it cannot have created the universe as well and that the passages in the bible referring to that or its omnipotence are crap that s what i meant by the riddle it is an important question in the light of what for instance the passage witrh sodom and gomorrha means either there is some connection between the text the fact that it exists and your interpretation of it or it is purely arbitrary further the question is why is has one to carry the burden of biblical texts when one could simply write other books that convey the message better you might answer that one can t becuase some peculiar biblical information might be lost but that holds true of every other book and the question remains why has the bible still a special place can t it be replaced somehow is it ok to bargain the dangerous content of the bible against some other message that is included as well deletion do you see the danger in doing so especially with the metaphers used in the bible i think the danger of doing so is less than either the danger of having a frozen system of laws or having no laws sorry but there are worse systems does not say anything about if one could not have a better system deletion if we read two stories about the importance of helping the poor and in one god is a spirit and in the other god has a body which is more important helping the poor or resolving the contradiction about the corporeal nature of god if we read two stories in the bible one that god commands people to kill children for being idolaters and another where god kills children directly what is more important to resolve the message that children are to be killed or if it has to be done by god and the argument you have given is a fallacy while it may not be important in the context you have given to find out if god is corporeal or not it can be crucial in other questions religious believers resolve contradictions with that they choose one of the possibilities given in an arbitrary way and have the advantage of being able to attribute their decision to some god one cannot resolve questions by the statement do what is good when what is good depends on the question benedikt
alt.atheism	re atheist in article epvk b w w mantis co uk tony lezard tony mantis co uk writes deletion in other words if there were gods they would hardly make sense and it is possible to explain the phenomenon of religion without gods the concept is useless and i don t have to introduce new assumptions in order to show that yes i fully agree with that but is it i don t believe gods exist or i believe no gods exist as mandtbacka finabo abo fi mats andtbacka pointed out it all hinges on what you take the word believe to mean for me it is a i believe no gods exist and a i don t believe gods exist in other words i think that statements like gods are or somehow interfere with this world are false or meaningless in ontology one can fairly conclude that when a exist is meaningless a does not exist under the pragmatic definition of truth a exists is meaningless makes a exist even logically false a problem with such statements is that one can t disprove a subjective god by definition and there might be cases where a subjective god would even make sense the trouble with most god definitions is that they include some form of objective existence with the consequence of the gods affecting all believers derive from it a right to interfere with the life of others deletion should the faq be clarified to try to pin down this notion of belief can it honestly i don t see the problem benedikt
alt.atheism	re why is sex only allowed in marriage rationality was islamic marriage in mar ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu s n mozumder writes my case is that everything wrong in the world will end if people start believing in islam and that horrors to mankind are all caused by the lack of belief atheism for the last time bobby lack of belief in your god does not imply atheism just because some moslems aren t moral does not mean they don t believe in a god named allah although their allah may not do the things your allah does if a moslem says he she believes that a god exists he she is a theist though maybe not a true follower of islam murder victims a year caused by atheism poverty massive hate crimes such low respect for the human body distrust among people everything wrong all caused by atheism peace jerk bobby mozumder sami aario can you see or measure an atom yet you can explode a cc tut fi one sunlight is comprised of many atoms your stupid minds stupid stupid eros in plan from outer space disclaimer i don t agree with eros
alt.atheism	re motto mania mathew writes i prefer mark jason dominus s suggestion that the motto should be changed to mind your own fucking business in this era of aids isn t someone s fucking everyone s interest semi i propose we have no motto recently in the glorious state of maryland the only state whose state song refers to abraham lincoln as a tyrant people have gotten all wound up over the state motto which we inherited from the calverts fatti maschii parole femine which if you read italian says manly deeds womanly words or something to that effect in the state which not so long ago had four women out of seven representatives this represents a problem the official solution was to change the translation so now it means strong deeds gentle words my personal suggestion was changing it to walk softly and carry a big stick c wingate the peace of god it is no peace but strife closed in the sod mangoe cs umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace of god
alt.atheism	re a visit from the jehovah s witnesses good grief the amount of energy being spent on one lousy syllogism says volumes for the true position of reason in this group c wingate the peace of god it is no peace but strife closed in the sod mangoe cs umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace of god
alt.atheism	benediktine metaphysics benedikt rosenau writes with great authority if it is contradictory it cannot exist contradictory is a property of language if i correct this to things defined by contradictory language do not exist i will object to definitions as reality if you then amend it to things described by contradictory language do not exist then we ve come to something which is plainly false failures in description are merely failures in description i m not an objectivist remember c wingate the peace of god it is no peace but strife closed in the sod mangoe cs umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace of god
alt.atheism	re gospel dating so then you require the same amount of evidence to believe that i a own a pair of bluejeans and b have superhuman powers well i could use the argument that some here use about nature and claim that you cannot have superhuman powers because you are a human superhuman powers are beyond what a human has and since you are a human any powers you have are not beyond those of a human hence you cannot have superhuman powers sound good to you anyway to the evidence question it depends on the context in this group since you are posting from a american college site i m willing to take it as given that you have a pair of blue jeans and assuming there is some coherency in your position i will take it as a given that you do not have superhuman powers arguments are evidence in themselves in some respects when you say the existence of sic jesus i assume that you mean just the man without any special powers etc yep many will agree that it is very possible that a man called jesus did in fact live in fact i am willing to agree that there was some man named jesus i have no reason to believe that there wasn t ever a man good however most of the claims are extradinary eg virgin birth virgin in the sense of not having any sexual intercourse resurection son of god etc those claims require extra evidence extra evidence why don t we start with evidence at all i cannot see any evidence for the v b which the cynics in this group would ever accept as for the second it is the foundation of the religion anyone who claims to have seen the risen jesus back in the day period is a believer and therefore is discounted by those in this group since these are all ancients anyway one again to choose to dismiss the whole thing the third is as much a metaphysical relationship as anything else even those who agree to it have argued at length over what it means so again i don t see how evidence is possible i thus interpret the extraordinary claims claim as a statement that the speaker will not accept any evidence on the matter c wingate the peace of god it is no peace but strife closed in the sod mangoe cs umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace of god
alt.atheism	a remarkable admission jon livesey writes i m certainly not going to attempt to distinguish between different flavours of christian all loudly claiming to be the one true christian well it s obvious that you don t attempt otherwise you would be aware that they don t all loudly claim to be the one true christian i ve tried to avoid using the phrase is is not christian because of these ownership issues instead i ve tried the phrase nicene christianity in an attempt to identify the vast majority of christianity which has roughly similar viewpoints on the core theological issues the jws do not fall within this group and in fact espouse a position known as arianism which is rejected by all the nicene churches and virtually everyone else as well c wingate the peace of god it is no peace but strife closed in the sod mangoe cs umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace of god
alt.atheism	re gospel dating benedikt rosenau writes the argument goes as follows q oid quotes appear in john but not in the almost codified way they were in matthew or luke however they are considered to be similar enough to point to knowledge of q as such and not an entirely different source assuming you are presenting it accurately i don t see how this argument really leads to any firm conclusion the material in john i m not sure exactly what is referred to here but i ll take for granted the similarity to the matt luke q material is different hence one could have almost any relationship between the two right up to john getting it straight from jesus mouth we are talking date of texts here not the age of the authors the usual explanation for the time order of mark matthew and luke does not consider their respective ages it says matthew has read the text of mark and luke that of matthew and probably that of mark the version of the usual theory i have heard has matthew and luke independently relying on mark and q one would think that if luke relied on matthew we wouldn t have the grating inconsistencies in the geneologies for one thing as it is assumed that john knew the content of luke s text the evidence for that is not overwhelming admittedly this is the part that is particularly new to me if it were possible that you could point me to a reference i d be grateful unfortunately i haven t got the info at hand it was i think in the late s or early s and it was possibly as old as ce when they are from about why do they shed doubt on the order on putting john after the rest of the three because it closes up the gap between supposed writing and the existing copy quit a bit the further away from the original the more copies can be written and therefore survival becomes more probable and i don t think a one step removed source is that bad if luke and mark and matthew learned their stories directly from diciples then i really cannot believe in the sort of big transformation from jesus to gospel that some people posit in news reports one generally gets no better information than this and if john is a diciple then there s nothing more to be said that john was a disciple is not generally accepted the style and language together with the theology are usually used as counterargument i m not really impressed with the theology argument but i m really pointing this out as an if and as i pointed out earlier one cannot make these arguments about i peter i see no reason not to accept it as an authentic letter one step and one generation removed is bad even in our times compare that to reports of similar events in our century in almost illiterate societies the best analogy would be reporters talking to the participants which is not so bad in other words one does not know what the original of mark did look like and arguments based on mark are pretty weak but the statement of divinity is not in that section and in any case it s agreed that the most important epistles predate mark c wingate the peace of god it is no peace but strife closed in the sod mangoe cs umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace of god
alt.atheism	re yeah right benedikt rosenau writes and what about that revelation thing charley if you re talking about this intellectual engagement of revelation well it s obviously a risk one takes many people say that the concept of metaphysical and religious knowledge is contradictive i m not an objectivist so i m not particularly impressed with problems of conceptualization the problem in this case is at least as bad as that of trying to explain quantum mechanics and relativity in the terms of ordinary experience one can get some rough understanding but the language is from the perspective of ordinary phenomena inconsistent and from the perspective of what s being described rather inexact to be charitable an analogous situation supposedly obtains in metaphysics the problem is that the better descriptive language is not available and in case it holds reliable information can you show how you establish that this word reliable is essentially meaningless in the context unless you can show how reliability can be determined c wingate the peace of god it is no peace but strife closed in the sod mangoe cs umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace of god
alt.atheism	re radical agnostic not in article apr cnsvax uwec edu nyeda cnsvax uwec edu david nye wrote reply to zazen austin ibm com e h welbon there is no means that i can possibly think of to prove beyond doubt that a god does not exist but if anyone has one by all means tell me what it is therefore lacking this ability of absolute proof being an atheist becomes an act of faith in and of itself and this i cannot accept i accept nothing on blind faith invisible pink flying unicorns need i say more i harbor no beliefs at all there is no good evidence for god existing or not some folks call this agnosticism it does not suffer from blind faith at all i think of it as don t worry be happy for many atheists the lack of belief in gods is secondary to an epistemological consideration what do we accept as a reliable way of knowing there are no known valid logical arguments for the existence of gods nor is there any empirical evidence that they exist most philosophers and theologians agree that the idea of a god is one that must be accepted on faith faith is belief without a sound logical basis or empirical evidence it is a reliable way of knowing could you expand on your definition of knowing it seems a bit monolithic here but i m not sure that you intend that don t we need for example to distinguish between knowing plus equals or apples plus apples equals apples the french knowing that jerry lewis is an auteur and what it means to say we know what socrates said this is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities bertrand russell i like this epigraph perhaps the issue is learning which if any absurdities merit further exploration gene
alt.atheism	re political atheists bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes my personal objection is that i find capital punishment to be cruel and unusual punishment under all circumstances it can be painless so it isn t cruel and it has occurred frequently since the dawn of time so it is hardly unusual i don t take issue with the numbers a single innocent life taken is one too many but innocents die due to many causes why have you singled out accidental or false execution as the one to take issue with keith
alt.atheism	re yeah right in article mimsy umd edu mangoe cs umd edu charley wingate writes for several years i ve periodically asked charley wingate to explain this mythical alternative to rationality which he propounds so enthusiastically when he pops up every few months his reluctance to explain indicates to me that it s not so hot i ve said enough times that there is no alternative that should think you might have caught on by now and there is no alternative but the point is rationality isn t an alternative either the problems of metaphysical and religious knowledge are unsolvable or i should say humans cannot solve them if there is truly no alternative then you have no basis whatsoever for your claim the usual line here which you call a prejudgment of atheism and dispute is that reason is all we have here you admit that you have no alternative no possible basis for the claim that there is anything other than reason or that reason is inapplicable in religious knowledge except possibly that reason conflicts with religious knowledge this sounds very much like i can t provide a rational defense for my belief but prefer to discard rationality rather than accept that it may be false i hope it makes you happy but your repeated and unfounded assertions to this effect don t advance your cause jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews nc these are my opinions for a nominal fee they can be yours
alt.atheism	re yeah right in article mimsy umd edu mangoe cs umd edu charley wingate writes benedikt rosenau writes and what about that revelation thing charley if you re talking about this intellectual engagement of revelation well it s obviously a risk one takes ah now here is the core question let me suggest a scenario we will grant that a god exists and uses revelation to communicate with humans said revelation taking the form paraphrased from your own words this infinitely powerful deity grabs some poor schmuck makes him take dictation and then hides away for a few hundred years now there exists a human who has not personally experienced a revelation this person observes that not only do these revelations seem to contain elements that contradict rather strongly aspects of the observed world which is all this person has ever seen but there are many mutually contradictory claims of revelation now based on this can this person be blamed for concluding absent a personal revelation of their own that there is almost certainly nothing to this revelation thing i m not an objectivist so i m not particularly impressed with problems of conceptualization the problem in this case is at least as bad as that of trying to explain quantum mechanics and relativity in the terms of ordinary experience one can get some rough understanding but the language is from the perspective of ordinary phenomena inconsistent and from the perspective of what s being described rather inexact to be charitable an analogous situation supposedly obtains in metaphysics the problem is that the better descriptive language is not available absent this better language and absent observations in support of the claims of revelation can one be blamed for doubting the whole thing here is what i am driving at i have thought a long time about this i have come to the honest conclusion that if there is a deity it is nothing like the ones proposed by any religion that i am familiar with now if there does happen to be say a christian god will i be held accountable for such an honest mistake sincerely ray ingles ingles engin umich edu the meek can have the earth the rest of us are going to the stars robert a heinlein
alt.atheism	re ancient islamic rituals in pkqe inn n lynx unm edu cfaehl vesta unm edu chris faehl writes in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes deleted to get to the point therefore in a nutshell my opinion is that pre marital sex makes the likelihood of extra marital sex more probable furthermore in my opinion extra marital sex helps break down partnerships and leads to greater divorce rates this in turn in my opinion creates trauma and a less stable environment for children who are then in my opinion more likely to grow up with psychological problems such as depression etc and thus sex outside of marriage is in the long run harmful to society i think that you are drawing links where there are none having sex before marriage has nothing to do with adultery once committed into marriage the issue as i see it is more of how committed you are to not foisting pain on your spouse and how confident you are about yourself in addition what someone does within their marriage is their own business not mine and not yours i have witnessed strong relationships that incorporate extra marital sex i would agree with your assertion about children children should not be witness to such confusing relationships if adultery is stressful to adults which i assume it in general is how can we expect children to understand it where is the evidence for my opinions at the moment there are just generalities i can cite for example i read that in the th century the percentage of youth and people in general who suffer from depression has been steadily climbing in western societies probably what i was reading referred particularly to the usa similarly one can detect a trend towards greater occurrence of sex outside of marriage in this century in western societies particularly with the sexual revolution of the s but even before that i think otherwise the sexual revolution of the s would not have been possible particularly with the gradual weakening of christianity and consequently christian moral teachings against sex outside of marriage i propose that these two trends greater level of general depression in society and other psychological problems and greater sexual promiscuity are linked with the latter being a prime cause of the former i cannot provide any evidence beyond this at this stage but the whole thesis seems very reasonable to me and i request that people ponder upon it why is it more reasonable than the trend towards obesity and the trend towards depression you can t just pick your two favorite trends notice a correlation in them and make a sweeping statement of generality i mean you can and people have but that does not mean that it is a valid or reasonable thesis at best it s a gross oversimplification of the push pull factors people experience my argument is mainly a proposal of what i think is a plausible argument against extra marital sex one which i personally believe has some truth my main purpose for posting it here is to show that a plausible argument can be made against extra marital sex at this stage i am not saying that this particular viewpoint is proven or anything like that just that it is plausible to try to convince you all of this particular point of view i would probably have to do a lot of work researching what has been done in this field etc in order to gather further evidence which i simply do not have time to do now also note that i said that i think extra marital sex is a prime cause in my opinion of the generally greater levels of psychological problems especially depression in western societies i am not saying it is the prime cause or the only cause just a prime cause i e one of the significant contributions to this trend i think when you say you think my view is simplistic you have forgotten this i admit that there are probably other factors but i do think that extra marital sex and imo subsequent destabilization of the family is a significant factor in the rise in psychological problems like depression in western society this century fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
alt.atheism	re ancient islamic rituals in ednclark kraken ednclark kraken itc gu edu au jeffrey clark writes cfaehl vesta unm edu chris faehl writes why is it more reasonable than the trend towards obesity and the trend towards depression you can t just pick your two favorite trends notice a correlation in them and make a sweeping statement of generality i mean you can and people have but that does not mean that it is a valid or reasonable thesis at best it s a gross oversimplification of the push pull factors people experience basically the social interactions of all the changing factors in our society are far too complicated for us to control we just have to hold on to the panic handles and hope that we are heading for a soft landing but one things for sure depression and the destruction of the nuclear family is not due solely to sex out of marriage note that i never said that depression and the destruction of the nuclear family is due solely to extra marital sex i specifically said that it was a prime cause of this not the prime cause or the only cause of this i recognize that there are probably other factors too but i think that extra marital sex and subsequent destabilization of the family is probably a significant factor to the rise in psychological problems including depression in the west in the th century fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
alt.atheism	re why is sex only allowed in marriage rationality was islamic marriage in apr proxima alt za lucio proxima alt za lucio de re writes darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes my point of view is that the argument all sexism is bad just simply does not hold let me give you an example how about permitting a woman to temporarily leave her job due to pregnancy should that be allowed it happens to be sexist as it gives a particular right only to women nevertheless despite the fact that it is sexist i completely support such a law because i think it is just fred you re exasperating sexism like racialism is a form of discrimination using obvious physical or cultural differences to deny one portion of the population the same rights as another in this context your example above holds no water whatsoever there s no discrimination in denying men maternity leave in fact i m quite convinced that were anyone to experiment with male pregnancy it would be possible for such a future father to take leave on medical grounds okay i argued this thoroughly about weeks ago men and women are different physically physiologically and psychologically much recent evidence for this statement is present in the book brainsex by anne moir and david jessel i recommend you find a copy and read it their book is an overview of recent scientific research on this topic and is well referenced now if women and men are different in some ways the law can only adequately take into account their needs in these areas where they are different by also taking into account the ways in which men and women are different maternity leave is an example of this it takes into account that women get pregnant it does not give women the same rules it would give to men because to treat women like it treats men in this instance would be unjust this is just simply an obvious example of where men and women are intrinsically different now people make the naive argument that sexism oppression however maternity leave is sexist because men do not get pregnant men do not have the same access to leave that women do not to the same extent or degree and therefore it is sexist no matter however much a man wants to get pregnant and have maternity leave he never can and therefore the law is sexist no man can have access to maternity leave no matter how hard he tries to get pregnant i hope this is clear maternity leave is an example where a sexist law is just because the sexism here just reflects the sexism of nature in making men and women different there are many other differences between men and women which are far more subtle than pregnancy and to find out more of these i recommend you have a look at the book brainsex your point that perhaps some day men can also be pregnant is fallacious if men can one day become pregnant it will be by having biologically become women to have a womb and the other factors required for pregnancy is usually wrapped up in the definition of what a woman is so your argument when it is examined is seen to be fallacious you are saying that men can have the sexist maternity leave privilege that women can have if they also become women which actually just supports my statement that maternity leave is sexist the discrimination comes in when a woman is denied opportunities because of her legally determined sexual inferiorities as i understand most religious sexual discrimination and i doubt that islam is exceptional the female is not allowed into the priestly caste and in general is subjugated so that she has no aspirations to rights which as an equal human she ought to be entitled to there is no official priesthood in islam much of this function is taken by islamic scholars there are female islamic scholars and female islamic scholars have always existed in islam an example from early islamic history is the prophet s widow aisha who was recognized in her time and is recognized in our time as an islamic scholar no matter how sweetly you coat it part of the role of religions seems historically to have served the function of oppressing the female whether by forcing her to procreate to the extent where there is no opportunity for self improvement or by denying her access to the same facilities the males are offered you have no evidence for your blanket statement about all religions and i dispute it i could go on and on about women in islam etc but i recently reposted something here under the heading islam and women if it is still at your news site i suggest you read it it is reposted from soc religion islam so if it has disappeared from alt atheism it still might be in soc religion islam i forgot what its original title was though i will email it to you if you like the roman catholic church is the most blatant of the culprit because they actually istitutionalised a celibate clergy but the other religious are no different let a woman attempt to escape her role as child bearer and the wrath of god descends on her your statement that other religions are no different is i think a statement based simply on lack of knowledge about religions other than christianity and perhaps judaism i ll accept your affirmation that islam grants women the same rights as men when you can show me that any muslim woman can aspire to the same position as say khomeini and there are no artificial religious or social obstacles on her path to achieve this aisha who i mentioned earlier was not only an islamic scholar but also was at one stage a military leader show me the equivalent of hillary rhodam clinton within islam and i may consider discussing the issue with you the prophet s first wife who died just before the hijra the prophet s journey from mecca to medina was a successful businesswoman lucio you cannot make a strong case for your viewpoint when your viewpoint is based on ignorance about world religions fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
alt.atheism	re ancient islamic rituals in ba c i dbstu rz tu bs de i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau writes in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes there has been some discussion on the pros and cons about sex outside of marriage i personally think that part of the value of having lasting partnerships between men and women is that this helps to provide a stable and secure environment for children to grow up in deletion as an addition to chris faehl s post what about homosexuals well from an islamic viewpoint homosexuality is not the norm for society i cannot really say much about the islamic viewpoint on homosexuality as it is not something i have done much research on fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
alt.atheism	re benediktine metaphysics in article mimsy umd edu mangoe cs umd edu charley wingate writes benedikt rosenau writes with great authority if it is contradictory it cannot exist contradictory is a property of language if i correct this to things defined by contradictory language do not exist i will object to definitions as reality if you then amend it to things described by contradictory language do not exist then we ve come to something which is plainly false failures in description are merely failures in description how about this description an object that is at one time both a euclidean square and a euclidean circle i hold that no object satisfying this description could exist the description is inconsistent and hence describes an object that could not exist now suppose someone pointed to a bicycle and said that object is at one time both a euclidean square and a euclidean circle this does not mean that the bicycle does not exist it measn that the description was incorrectly applied the atheist says the descriptions of god that i have been presented with are contradictory and hence describe something that cannot exist now your position so far as i can gather is that god exists but the descriptions atheists have been presented with are simply bad descriptions of it this is roughly analogous to someone who has never seen a bicycle and when they ask for a description from people who claim to have seen one are told that it is a euclidean circle square can they be blamed for doubting rather strongly that this bicycle exists at all i m not an objectivist remember no kidding sincerely ray ingles ingles engin umich edu the meek can have the earth the rest of us are going to the stars robert a heinlein
alt.atheism	re islamic authority over women in article apr dcs warwick ac uk simon dcs warwick ac uk simon clippingdale writes for the guy who said he s just arrived and asked whether bobby s for real you betcha welcome to alt atheism and rest assured that it gets worse i have a few pearls of wisdom from bobby which i reproduce below is anyone keith keeping a big file of such stuff sorry i was but i somehow have misplaced my diskette from the last couple of months or so however thanks to the efforts of bobby it is being replenished rather quickly here is a recent favorite satan and the angels do not have freewill they do what god tells them to do s n mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu satan and the angels do not have freewill they do what god tells them to do s n mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu
alt.atheism	re a visit from the jehovah s witnesses good grief in article mimsy umd edu mangoe cs umd edu charley wingate writes the amount of energy being spent on one lousy syllogism says volumes for the true position of reason in this group i agree we spend too much energy on the nonexistance of god satan and the angels do not have freewill they do what god tells them to do s n mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu
alt.atheism	evo homosexuality was re princeton etc sorry bill i had to clear this up there may be good evolutionary arguments against homosexuality but these don t qualify in article c vwn jf darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes c wainwright eczcaw mips nott ac uk wrote deletions it would seem odd if homosexuality had any evolutionary function deletions so every time a man has sex with a woman they intend to produce children hmm no wonder the world is overpopulated obviously you keep to the monty python song every sperm is sacred and if as you say it has a purpose as a means to limit population growth then it is by your own arguement natural consider the context i m talking about an evolutionary function one of the most basic requirements of evolution is that members of a species procreate those who don t have no purpose in that context oh i guess all those social insects e g ants bees etc which have one breeding queen and a whole passel of sterile workers are on the way out huh these days is just ain t true people can decide whether or not to have children and when soon they will be able to choose it s sex c but that s another arguement so it s more of a lifestyle decision again by your arguement since homosexuals can not or choose not to reproduce they must be akin to people who decide to have sex but not children both are as unnatural as each other yet another non sequitur sex is an evolutionary function that exists for procreation that it is also recreation is incidental that homosexuals don t procreate means that sex is only recreation and nothing more they serve no evolutionary purpose i refer you to the bonobos a species of primate as closeley related to humans as chimpanzees that is very closely they have sex all the time homosexual as well as heterosexual when the group finds food they have sex before the go to sleep at night they have sex after they escape from or fight off prdators they have sex sex serves a very important social function above and beyond reproduction in this species a species closely related to humans there is some indication that sex performs a social function in humans as well but even if not this shows that such a function is not impossible sincerely ray ingles ingles engin umich edu the meek can have the earth the rest of us are going to the stars robert a heinlein
alt.atheism	vonnegut atheism yesterday i got the chance to hear kurt vonnegut speak at the university of new hampshire vonnegut succeeded isaac asimov as the honorary head of the american humanist association vonnegut is an atheist and so was asimov before asimov s funeral vonnegut stood up and said about asimov he s in heaven now which ignited uproarious laughter in the room from the people he was speaking to around the time of the funeral it s the funniest thing i could have possibly said to a room full of humanists vonnegut said at yesterday s lecture if vonnegut comes to speak at your university i highly recommend going to see him even if you ve never read any of his novels in my opinion he s the greatest living humorist greatest living humanist humorist as well peace dana
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes i should clarify what muslims usually mean when they say muslim in general anyone who calls themselves a muslim and does not do or outwardly profess something in clear contradiction with the essential teachings of islam is considered to be a muslim thus one who might do things contrary to islam through ignorance for example does not suddenly not become a muslim if one knowingly transgresses islamic teachings and essential principles though then one does leave islam you and mr bobby really need to sit down and decide what exactly islam is before posting here according to zlumber one is not a muslim when one is doing evil a muslin can do no evil according to him one who does evil is suffering from temporary athiesm now would the members who claim to be muslims get their stories straight satan and the angels do not have freewill they do what god tells them to do s n mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu
alt.atheism	re request for support in article apr sei cmu edu dpw sei cmu edu david wood writes if you must respond to one of his articles include within it something similar to the following please answer the questions posed to you in the charley challenges agreed satan and the angels do not have freewill they do what god tells them to do s n mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu
alt.atheism	re bill conner in article c y mlr darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes could you explain what any of this pertains to is this a position statement on something or typing practice and why are you using my name do you think this relates to anything i ve said and if so what bill could you explain what any of the above pertains to is this a position statement on something or typing practice satan and the angels do not have freewill they do what god tells them to do s n mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu
alt.atheism	re soc motss et al princeton axes matching funds for boy scouts in article jvigneau apr cs ulowell edu jvigneau cs ulowell edu joe vigneau writes if anything the bsa has taught me i don t know tolerance or something before i met this guy i thought all gays were faries so the bsa has taught me to be an antibigot i could give much the same testimonial about my experience as a scout back in the s the issue wasn t gays but the principles were the same thanks for a well put testimonial stan krieger and his kind who think this discussion doesn t belong here and his intolerance is the only acceptable position in scouting should take notice the bsa has been hijacked by the religious right but some of the core values have survived in spite of the leadership and some scouts and former scouts haven t given up seeing a testimonial like this reminds me that scouting is still worth fighting for on a cautionary note you must realize that if your experience with this camp leader was in the bsa you may be putting him at risk by publicizing it word could leak out to the bsa gestapo bill mayne
alt.atheism	re soc motss et al princeton axes matching funds for boy scouts c wainwright eczcaw mips nott ac uk wrote i jim i always thought that homophobe was only a word used at act up rallies i didn t beleive real people used it let s see if we agree on the term s definition a homophobe is one who actively and militantly attacks homosexuals because he is actually a latent homosexual who uses his hostility to conceal his true orientation since everyone who disapproves of or condemns homosexuality is a homophobe your implication is clear it must necessarily follow that all men are latent homosexuals or bisexual at the very least crap crap crap crap crap a definition of any type of phobe comes from phobia an irrational fear of hence a homophobe not only in act up meetings the word is apparently in general use now or perhaps it isn t in the bible wouldst thou prefer if i were to communicate with thou in bilespeak does an arachnophobe have an irrational fear of being a spider does an agoraphobe have an irrational fear of being a wide open space do you understand english obviously someone who has phobia will react to it they will do their best to avoid it and if that is not possible they will either strike out or run away or do gaybashings occur because of natural processes people who definately have homophobia will either run away from gay people or cause them or themselves violence isn t that what i said what are you taking issue with here your remarks are merely parenthetical to mine and add nothing useful it would seem odd if homosexuality had any evolutionary function other than limiting population growth since evolution only occurs when the members of one generation pass along their traits to subsequent generations homosexuality is an evolutionary deadend if i take your usage of the term homophobe in the sense you seem to intend then all men are really homosexual and evolution of our species at least is going nowhere so every time a man has sex with a woman they intend to produce children hmm no wonder the world is overpopulated obviously you keep to the monty python song every sperm is sacred and if as you say it has a purpose as a means to limit population growth then it is by your own arguement natural consider the context i m talking about an evolutionary function one of the most basic requirements of evolution is that members of a species procreate those who don t have no purpose in that context another point is that if the offspring of each generation is to survive the participation of both parents is necessary a family must exist since homosexuals do not reproduce they cannot constitute a family since the majority of humankind is part of a family homosexuality is an evolutionary abberation contrary to nature if you will well if that is true by your own arguements homosexuals would have vanished years ago due to non procreation also the parent from single parent families should put the babies out in the cold now cos they must by your arguement die by your argument homosexuality is genetically determined as to your second point you prove again that you have no idea what context means i am talking about evolution the preservation of the species the fundamental premise of the whole process but it gets worse since the overwhelming majority of people actually prefer a heterosexual relationship homosexuality is a social abberation as well the homosexual eschews the biological imperative to reproduce and then the social imperative to form and participate in the most fundamental social element the family but wait there s more read the above i expect you to have at least ten children by now with the family growing these days sex is less to do with procreation admittedly without it there would be no one but more to do with pleasure in pre pill and pre condom days if you had sex there was the chance of producing children these days is just ain t true people can decide whether or not to have children and when soon they will be able to choose it s sex c but that s another arguement so it s more of a lifestyle decision again by your arguement since homosexuals can not or choose not to reproduce they must be akin to people who decide to have sex but not children both are as unnatural as each other yet another non sequitur sex is an evolutionary function that exists for procreation that it is also recreation is incidental that homosexuals don t procreate means that sex is only recreation and nothing more they serve no evolutionary purpose since homosexuals have come out the closet and have convinced some policy makers that they have civil rights they are now claiming that their sexuality is a preference a life style an orientation a choice that should be protected by law now if homosexuality is a mere choice and if it is both contrary to nature and anti social then it is a perverse choice they have even less credibility than before they became prominent people are people are people who are you to tell anyone else how to live their life are you god tm if so fancy a date here s pretty obvious dodge do you really think you ve said anything or do you just feel obligated to respond to every statement i am not telling anyone anything i am demonstrating that there are arguments against the practice of homosexuality providing it s a merely an alternate lifestlye that are not homophobic that one can reasonably call it perverse in a context even a atheist can understand i realize of course that this comes dangerously close to establishing a value and that atheists are compelled to object on that basis but if you are to be consistent you have no case in this regard to characterize any opposition to homosexuality as homophobic is to ignore some very compelling arguments against the legitimization of the homosexual life style but since the charge is only intended to intimidate it s really just demogoguery and not to be taken seriously fact is jim there are far more persuasive arguments for suppressing homosexuality than those given but consider this a start again crap all your arguments are based on outdated ideals likewise the bible would any honest christian condemn the ten generations spawned by a bastard to eternal damnation or someone who crushes his penis either accidently or not both are in deuteronomy i m sure your comment pertains to something but you ve disguised it so well i can t see what where did i mention ideals out dated or otherwise your arguments are very reactionary do you have anything at all to contribute as to why homosexuals should be excluded from participation in scouting the reasons are the same as those used to restrict them from teaching by their own logic homosexuals are deviates social and biological since any adult is a role model for a child it is incumbent on the parent to ensure that the child be isolated from those who would do the child harm in this case harm means primarily social though that could be extended easily enough you show me anyone who has sex in a way that everyone would describe as normal and will take of my hat puma baseball cap to you one man s meat is another man s poison what has this got to do with anything would you pick a single point that you find offensive and explain your objections i would really like to believe that you can discuss this issue intelligibly bill
alt.atheism	fluids vs liquids west next wam umd edu brian west writes deleted a similar analogy can be made with glass for those of you who don t know glass is a liquid go ask your science teacher and does flow deleted if your science teacher tells you glass is a liquid try to get a different science teacher b glass is a supercooled fluid it is not a liquid except at very high temperatures the definition of liquid includes readily takes the form of its container let s try to be more accurate here we don t want people to think we re creationists now do we uucp uunet tektronix sail mikec or m cranford uunet tektronix sail labs tek com mikec principal troll arpa mikec sail labs tek com relay cs net resident skeptic csnet mikec sail labs tek com teklabs tektronix
alt.atheism	re gospel dating in article c vyfu jj darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes keith m ryan kmr po cwru edu wrote wild and fanciful claims require greater evidence if you state that one of the books in your room is blue i certainly do not need as much evidence to believe than if you were to claim that there is a two headed leapard in your bed and i don t mean a male lover in a leotard keith if the issue is what is truth then the consequences of whatever proposition argued is irrelevent if the issue is what are the consequences if such and such is true then truth is irrelevent which is it to be i disagree every proposition needs a certain amount of evidence and support before one can believe it there are a miriad of factors for each individual as we are all different we quite obviously require different levels of evidence as one pointed out one s history is important while in fussr one may not believe a comrade who states that he owns five pairs of blue jeans one would need more evidence than if one lived in the united states the only time such a statement here would raise an eyebrow in the us is if the individual always wear business suits etc the degree of the effect upon the world and the strength of the claim also determine the amount of evidence necessary when determining the level of evidence one needs it is most certainly relevent what the consequences of the proposition are if the consequences of a proposition is irrelvent please explain why one would not accept the electro magnetic force of attraction between two charged particles is inversely proportional to the cube of their distance apart remember if the consequences of the law are not relevent then we can not use experimental evidence as a disproof if one of the consequences of the law is an incongruency between the law and the state of affairs or an incongruency between this law and any other natural law they are irrelevent when theorizing about the truth of the law given that any consequences of a proposition is irrelvent including the consequence of self contradiction or contradiction with the state of affiars how are we ever able to judge what is true or not let alone find the truth by the way what is truth please define before inserting it in the conversation please explain what truth or truth is i do think that anything is ever known for certain even if there is a truth we could never possibly know if it were i find the concept to be meaningless satan and the angels do not have freewill they do what god tells them to do s n mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu
alt.atheism	re is morality constant was re biblical rape in article c w pv jxd darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes there are a couple of things about your post and others in this thread that are a little confusing an atheist is one for whom all things can be understood as processes of nature exclusively there is no need for any recourse to divnity to describe or explain anything there is no purpose or direction for any event beyond those required by physics chemistry biology etc everything is random nothing is determnined this posts contains too many fallacies to respond too the abolishment of divinity requires the elimination of freewill you have not shown this you have not even attempted to however the existance of an omniscience being does eliminate freewill in mortals posted over five months ago no one has been able to refute it nor give any reasonable reasons against it satan and the angels do not have freewill they do what god tells them to do s n mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu
alt.atheism	re gospel dating in article mimsy umd edu mangoe cs umd edu charley wingate writes deletion i cannot see any evidence for the v b which the cynics in this group would ever accept as for the second it is the foundation of the religion anyone who claims to have seen the risen jesus back in the day period is a believer and therefore is discounted by those in this group since these are all ancients anyway one again to choose to dismiss the whole thing the third is as much a metaphysical relationship as anything else even those who agree to it have argued at length over what it means so again i don t see how evidence is possible no cookies charlie the claims that jesus have been seen are discredited as extraordinary claims that don t match their evidence in this case it is for one that the gospels cannot even agree if it was jesus who has been seen further there are zillions of other spook stories and one would hardly consider others even in a religious context to be some evidence of a resurrection there have been more elaborate arguments made but it looks as if they have not passed your post filtering i thus interpret the extraordinary claims claim as a statement that the speaker will not accept any evidence on the matter it is no evidence in the strict meaning if there was actual evidence it would probably be part of it but the says nothing about the claims charlie i have seen invisible pink unicorns by your standards we have evidence for ipus now benedikt
alt.atheism	re contradictions in article c oys clj austin ibm com yoder austin ibm com stuart r yoder writes then what would it have to do with in the universe you theists cannot understand that inside the universe and outside the universe are two different places put god outside the universe and you subtract from it the ability to interact with the inside of the universe put it inside the universe and you impose the rules of physics on it god is outside the universe things outside the universe do not have the ability to interact with the inside of the universe therefore god cannot interact inside the universe has no basis whatsoever you seem to have positive knowledge about this is a corrallary of the negation of would contridict although we do not have a complete model of the physical rules governing the inside of the universe we expect that there are no contradictory events likely to destroy the fabric of modern physics on the other hand your notion of an omnipotent omniscient and infinitely benevolent god is not subject to physical laws you attempt to explain this away by describing it as being outside of them beyond measurement to me beyond measurement means it can have no measurable effect on reality so it cannot interact ergo your god is irrelevant god is beyond measure beyond measurement means it can have no measurable effect on reality therefore god cannot have a measurable effect on reality has no basis whatsoever is a corrallary of the negation of would contradict satan and the angels do not have freewill they do what god tells them to do s n mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu
alt.atheism	ontology was benediktine metaphysics in article mimsy umd edu mangoe cs umd edu charley wingate writes if it is contradictory it cannot exist contradictory is a property of language if i correct this to things defined by contradictory language do not exist no need to correct it it stands as it is said i will object to definitions as reality if you then amend it to things described by contradictory language do not exist then we ve come to something which is plainly false failures in description are merely failures in description you miss the point entirely things defined by contradictory language do not exist though something existing might be meant conclusions drawn from the description are wrong unless there is the possibility to find the described and draw conclusions from direct knowledge of the described then another possibility is to drop the contradictory part but that implies that one can trust the concept as presented and that one has not got to doubt the source of it as well i m not an objectivist remember neither am i but either things are directly sensed which includes some form of modelling by the way or they are used in modelling using something contradictive in modelling is not approved of wonder why we remain with the question if something contradictory can be sensed as contradictory an important point is that either one manages to resolve the contradictions or one is forced not to use or to refer to the contradictory part in drawing conclusions or one will fall in the garbage in garbage out trap benedikt
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie references deleted to move this to a new thread in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes in article phkf inn p dsi dsinc com perry dsinc com jim perry writes rushdie is however as i understand a muslim the fact that he s a british citizen does not preclude his being muslim rushdie was an atheist to use local terminology not to put words in his mouth at the time of writing tsv and at the time of the fatwa in february well if he was born muslim i am fairly certain he was then he is muslim until he explicitly renounces islam so far as i know he has never explicitly renounced islam though he may have been in extreme doubt about the existence of god being muslim is a legal as well as intellectual issue according to islam to put it as simply as possible i am not a muslim i do not accept the charge of apostacy because i have never in my adult life affirmed any belief and what one has not affirmed one can not be said to have apostasized from the islam i know states clearly that there can be no coercion in matters of religion the many muslims i respect would be horrified by the idea that they belong to their faith purely by virtue of birth and that a person who freely chose not to be a muslim could therefore be put to death salman rushdie in good faith god satan paradise and hell all vanished one day in my fifteenth year when i quite abruptly lost my faith and afterwards to prove my new found atheism i bought myself a rather tasteless ham sandwich and so partook for the first time of the forbidden flesh of the swine no thunderbolt arrived to strike me down from that day to this i have thought of myself as a wholly seculat person salman rushdie in god we trust i think the rushdie affair has discredited islam more in my eyes than khomeini i know there are fanatics and fringe elements in all religions but even apparently moderate muslims have participated or refused to distance themselves from the witch hunt against rushdie yes i think this is true but there khomenei s motivations are quite irrelevant to the issue the fact of the matter is that rushdie made false statements fiction i know but where is the line between fact and fiction about the life of mohammad only a functional illiterate with absolutely no conception of the nature of the novel could think such a thing i ll accept it reluctantly from mobs in pakistan but not from you what is presented in the fictional dream of a demented character cannot by the wildest stretch of the imagination be considered a reflection on the actual mohammad what s worse the novel doesn t present the mahound mohammed character in any worse light than secular histories of islam in particular there is no lewd misrepresentation of his life or that of his wives that is why few people rush to his defense he s considered an absolute fool for his writings in the satanic verses don t hold back he s considered an apostate and a blasphemer however it s not for his writing in the satanic verses but for what people have accepted as a propagandistic version of what is contained in that book i have yet to find one single muslim who has convinced me that they have read the book some have initially claimed to have done so but none has shown more knowledge of the book than a superficial newsweek story might impart and all have made factual misstatements about events in the book if you wish to understand the reasons behind this as well has the origin of the concept of the satanic verses see the penguin paperback by rafiq zakariyah called mohammad and the quran i ll keep an eye out for it i have a counter proposal i suggest that you see the viking hardcover by salman rushdie called the satanic verses perhaps then you ll understand jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews nc these are my opinions for a nominal fee they can be yours
alt.atheism	re a visit from the jehovah s witnesses in article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes in article c twso m hq ileaf com mukesh hq ileaf com mukesh prasad writes in article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes in article p v ainn e matt ksu ksu edu strat matt ksu ksu edu steve davis writes bskendig netcom com brian kendig writes the earth is evil because satan rules over it this is a new one to me i guess it s been a while since a witness bothered with me are they implying that satan is omniscient you might try tricking them into saying that satan is all knowing and then use that statement to show them how their beliefs are self contradictary no satan is not omniscient but he does hold dominion over the earth according to christian theology note not to be confused with jw s theology what are the standard theologies on who what created satan and why orthodox christian theology states that god created lucifer satan along with the other angels presumably because he wanted beings to celebrate glorify existence and life and thereby god along with him actually the whys and wherefores of god s motivations for creating the angels are not a big issue within christian theology but god created lucifer with a perfect nature and gave him along with the other angels free moral will lucifer was a high angel perhaps the highest with great authority it seems that his greatness caused him to begin to take pride in himself and desire to be equal to or greater than god he forgot his place as a created being he exalted himself above god and thereby evil and sin entered creation actually the story goes that lucifer refused to bow before man as god commanded him to lucifer was devoted to god oh yeah there is nothing in genesis that says the snake was anything more than a snake well a talking one had legs at the time too i don t think pointing out contradictions in stories is the best way to show the error in theology if they think a supernatural entity kicked the first humans out of paradise because they bit into a fruit that gave them special powers well they might not respond well to reason and logic brian
alt.atheism	re ancient islamic rituals in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes there has been some discussion on the pros and cons about sex outside of marriage where is the evidence for my opinions at the moment there are just generalities i can cite for example i read that in the th century the percentage of youth and people in general who suffer from depression has been steadily climbing in western societies probably what i was reading referred particularly to the usa similarly one can detect a trend towards greater occurrence of sex outside of marriage in this century in western societies particularly with the sexual revolution of the s but even before that i think otherwise the sexual revolution of the s would not have been possible particularly with the gradual weakening of christianity and consequently christian moral teachings against sex outside of marriage i propose that these two trends greater level of general depression in society and other psychological problems and greater sexual promiscuity are linked with the latter being a prime cause of the former i cannot provide any evidence beyond this at this stage but the whole thesis seems very reasonable to me and i request that people ponder upon it fred rice a muslim giving his point of view darice yoyo cc monash edu au i think this is a big leap sex depression one example is myself where no sex depression but seriously promiscuity is on a decline depression is not and it might be more reasonable to say depression promiscuity i think depression is more likely to come from emotional problems relationships family job friends and promiscuity is used as an escape since i see marriage as a civil and religious bond rather than an emotional bond i don t see a problem with sex before not outside of marriage so long as you have the same commitment and devotion as what is expected from a married couple of course this is just my opinion brian
alt.atheism	re yeah right in article mimsy umd edu mangoe cs umd edu charley wingate writes and what about that revelation thing charley if you re talking about this intellectual engagement of revelation well it s obviously a risk one takes i see it is not rational but it is intellectual does madness qualify as intellectual engagement too many people say that the concept of metaphysical and religious knowledge is contradictive i m not an objectivist so i m not particularly impressed with problems of conceptualization the problem in this case is at least as bad as that of trying to explain quantum mechanics and relativity in the terms of ordinary experience one can get some rough understanding but the language is from the perspective of ordinary phenomena inconsistent and from the perspective of what s being described rather inexact to be charitable exactly why science uses mathematics qm representation in natural language is not supposed to replace the elaborate representation in mathematical terminology nor is it supposed to be the truth as opposed to the representation of gods or religions in ordinary language admittedly not every religion says so but a fancy side effect of their inept representations are the eternal hassles between religions and qm allows for making experiments that will lead to results that will be agreed upon as being similar show me something similar in religion an analogous situation supposedly obtains in metaphysics the problem is that the better descriptive language is not available with the effect that the models presented are useless and one can argue that the other way around namely that the only reason metaphysics still flourish is because it makes no statements that can be verified or falsified showing that it is bogus and in case it holds reliable information can you show how you establish that this word reliable is essentially meaningless in the context unless you can show how reliability can be determined haven t you read the many posts about what reliability is and how it can be acheived respectively determined benedikt
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in p psilink com robert knowles p psilink com writes date sat apr gmt from fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au in p ivt cfj fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes should we british go around blowing up skyscrapers next i don t know if you are doing so but it seems you are implying that the person accused of blowing up the wtc in ny actually did it and that islamic teachings have something to do with blowing up the wtc wtc world trade centre which was the building that was blown up i think okay to make some comments the person has only been accused innocent until proven guilty remember secondly there seem to be some holes in his accusation that i read about for instance if they guy used that particular van to blow up the building and then to go back and claim his deposit back afterwards he must be incredibly stupid perhaps salamen was one of those uneducated muslims we hear so much about nevertheless he was apparently smart enough to put together a very sophisticated bomb it doesn t seem to fit together somehow actually salameh was not the only person involved the other fellow was a chemical engineer working for allied signal who had specifically studied explosive devices in school believe it or not we actually allow radical muslim types to study things like this in our universities so much for the price of freedom from what i read the other fellow told salameh how to put it together over the phone the bomb was supposedly some sort of sophisticated type so to put a i assume complicated sophisticated bomb together from instructions over the phone one must need some brains i would expect despite this there have already been many attacks and threats against mosques and muslims in the united states as a consequence of his accusation i have read o k now please tell us where this is happening i live in the u s and i have heard very little about these mosque attacks there are many mosques in houston texas and i would like to know what is going on so i can verify this or is the great jewish media conspiracy keeping us from knowing about this in the u s we heard about the mosque attacks during the desert storm venture so why is it so quiet now maybe it is localized to new jersey i read this in an article in the australian muslim times the newspaper weekly of the australian muslim community if this is true perhaps one of the muslims based in north america if they see this posting can elaborate islamic teachings teach against harming the innocent in the qur an it explicitly teaches against harming innocents even in times of war the blowing up of the wtc and harming innocents is therefore in blatant contradiction to islamic teachings this means absolutely nothing plenty of people commit violence while following what they think are valid religious principles i have seen people post many things here from the koran which could be misinterpreted if that is the explanation you wish to use by an uneducated muslim to allow them to harm idolators and unbelievers the first thing every muslim says is that no muslim could have done that because islam teaches against harming innocents and we are supposed to take you word that it never happens what do you think is the consequence does allah strike them down before the alleged violence occurs of course not muslims commit the violent act and then everyone hides behind verses in the koran we re pretty hip to that trick and i even doubt that it will come up in the trials my defense is that i am muslim and islam teaches me not to harm the innocent therefore the people who were killed must not have been innocent sure we set off the bomb your honor but you must remember sir i am a muslim allah is all powerful allah would not have allowed this are you insulting my religion great defense eh just admit that there are some incredibly stupid violent muslims in the world and stop hiding from that fact it does no one any good to deny it it only makes the more reasonable muslims look like they are protecting the bad ones can you see that i don t deny this fact the thrust of my argument here is that a salameh is according to us law innocent as he has not been found guilty in a court of law as his guilt has not been established it is wrong for people to make postings based on this assumption b islam teaches us not to harm innocents if muslims who perhaps have not realized that islam teaches this perform such actions it is not because of the teachings of islam but rather in spite of and in contradiction to the teachings of islam this is an important distinction i should clarify what muslims usually mean when they say muslim in general anyone who calls themselves a muslim and does not do or outwardly profess something in clear contradiction with the essential teachings of islam is considered to be a muslim thus one who might do things contrary to islam through ignorance for example does not suddenly not become a muslim if one knowingly transgresses islamic teachings and essential principles though then one does leave islam the term muslim is to be contrasted with mu min which means true believer however whether a muslim is in reality a mu min is something known only by god and perhaps that person himself so you will not find the term mu min used very much by muslims in alt atheism because it is not known to anybody except myself and god whether i for example am a true believer or not for example i could just be putting on a show here and in reality believe something opposite to what i write here without anyone knowing thus when we say muslims we mean all those who outwardly profess to follow islam whether in practice they might in ignorance transgress islamic teachings by muslim we do not necessarily mean mu min or true believer in islam fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
alt.atheism	re gospel dating mangoe cs umd edu charley wingate writes david wood writes extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence more seriously this is just a high falutin way of saying i don t believe what you re saying are you making a meta argument here in any case you are wrong think of those invisible pink unicorns also the existence if jesus is not an extradinary claim i was responding to the historical accuracy of biblical claims of which the existence of jesus is only one and one that was not even mentioned in my post you may want to complain that the miracles attributed to him do constitute such claims and i won t argue otherwise but that is a different issue wrong that was exactly the issue go back and read the context included within my post and you ll see what i mean now that i ve done you the kindness of responding to your questions please do the same for me answer the charley challenges your claim that they are of the did not did so variety is a dishonest dodge that i feel certain fools only one person dave wood
alt.atheism	re and another thing mangoe cs umd edu charley wingate writes keith ryan writes you will ignore any criticism of your logic or any possible incongruenties in your stance you will not answer any questions on the validity of any opinion and or facts you state when i have to start saying that s not what i said and the response is did so there s no reason to continue if someone is not going to argue with my version of my position then they cannot be argued with but of course your version of your position has been included in the charley challenges so your claim above is a flat out lie further only last week you claimed that you might not answer the challenges because you were turned off by included text so which is it do you want your context included in my articles or not come to think of it this contradiction has the makings of a new entry in the next challenges post by the way i ve kept every bloody thing that you ve written related to this thread and will be only too pleased to re post any of it to back my position you seem to have forgotten that you leave an electronic paper trail on the net this is the usual theist approach no matter how many times a certain argument has been disproven shown to be non applicable or non sequitur they keep cropping up time after time speaking of non sequiturs this has little to do with what i just said and have some sauce for the goose some of the disproof is fallacies repeated over and over such as the law of nature argument someone posted recently now now let s not change the subject wouldn t it be best to finish up the thread in question before you begin new ones dave wood
alt.atheism	periodic post of charley challenges with additions new in this version challenge plus an addendum summarizing charley s responses to date this is a posting made periodically in an attempt to encourage charley wingate to address direct challenges to his evidently specious claims i ll continue to re post periodically until he answers them publicly indicates that he won t answer them stops posting to alt atheism the alt atheism community tells me to stop or i get totally bored i apologize for the somewhat juvenile nature of this approach but i m at a loss to figure out another way to crack his intransigence and seeming intellectual dishonesty this is re post charley i can t help but notice that you have still failed to provide answers to substantive questions that have been raised in response to your previous posts i submit that you don t answer them because you cannot answer them without running afoul of your own logic and i once again challenge you to prove me wrong to make the task as easy for you as possible i ll present concise re statements of some of the questions that you have failed to answer in the hope that you may address them one at a time for all to see should you fail to answer again within a reasonable time period i will re post this article with suitable additions and deletions at such time that i notice a post by you on another topic i will repeat this procedure until you either address the outstanding challenges or you cease to post to this newsgroup i would like to apologize in advance if you have answered any of these questions previously and your answer missed my notice if you can be kind enough to re post or e mail such articles i will be only too pleased to publicly rescind the challenge in question and remove it from this list now to the questions after claiming that all atheists fit into neat psychological patterns that you proposed then semi retracting that claim by stating that you weren t referring to all atheists i asked you to name some atheists who you feel don t fit your patterns to show that you indeed were not referring to all atheists that you are aware of you failed to do so please do so now question can you name any a a posters who do not fit into your stereotype here is the context for the question this is not true for everyone on this board and you are out of line in assuming that it is you however deleted the text further along where i said that i didn t mean to imply that everybody s experience was along the same lines whether or not you mean to make such implications you do so repeatedly allow me to approach the issue from another viewpoint can you name those atheists that you ve come across who do not fit into the patterns that you theorize you have taken umbrage to statements to the effect that senses and reason are all we have to go by and when pressed you have implied that we have an alternative called revelation i have repeatedly asked you to explain what revelation is and how one can both experience and interpret revelation without doing so via our senses and reason you failed to do so please do so now question can you explain what is revelation and how one can experience and interpret it without using senses and inherent reasoning here is the context for the question revelation is not reason and if we do have revelation then reasoning is not all we have first show me that revelation exists second if revelation is not perceived through the senses how exactly is it perceived according to my webster s revelation is an act of revealing or communicating divine truth now tell me how such a thing can be revealed communicated other than via the senses tell me how you can interpret this revelation other than with reason that is using your brain to interpret what you are sensing when i say there is no way for a human being to interface with the universe other than via the senses as interpreted by reason your brain it is because this is the simple truth if you have another mechanism of interface by all means share it with us then later you cannot escape the fact that our entire interface with the universe is our senses and our reason period again this is indefensible no it is simple truth i challenge you to show me otherwise then later few mystics will agree to this assertion and the common defense of redefining senses to absorb for instance mystical experiences is begs the question of whether some senses are better than others i allow you the broadest definition of senses to make things easier for you now show me that mystical experiences exist remember you aren t allowed to go by testimony of others e g mystics since you have dismissed my testimony as unreliable you know tainted by my own bias further once these mystical thingies are absorbed show me evidence that a human can recognize and respond to them short of interpretation via that person s reasoning capabilities i challenge you to show me these things if you cannot do so you might as well give up the fight then later let me reiterate you have not explained your interpretation of your experiences so it is not possible for me to have attacked them in point of fact i specifically challenged you to explain this revelation stuff that you were talking about and i note for the record that you appear to have declined my challenge what is it how is it sensed how is it interpreted and how does this sensing and interpretation occur without the conduit of our senses and reasoning abilities you have answered none of these questions that go straight to the heart of your claims if you can t answer them your claims are entirely specious you have stated that all claims to dispassionate analysis made by a a posters are unverifiable and fantastical i asked you to identify one such claim that i have made you have failed to do so please do so now question have i made any claims at all that are unverifiable and fantastical if so please repeat them here is the context for the question i must thank david wood a most sensitive and intelligent if wrong posting then later likewise the reference to unverifiable fantastical claims represents fairly accurately my reaction to all of the claims to dispassionate analysis that are repeated in this group give me your address and i ll be pleased to send you a dictionary failing that can you name one claim that i have made that is in any sense unverifiable or fantastical i demand that you retract this statement if you cannot offer up evidence if you follow your usual pattern of ignoring the challenge then you are simply an asshole first you dismissed claims by atheists that they became atheists as a result of reason then later you stated that if one accepted the axioms of reason that one couldn t help but become atheist i asked you to explain the contradiction your only response was a statement that the question was incoherent an opinion not shared by others that i have asked be they atheist or theist you have failed to answer the question please do so now question do you retract your claim that a a posters have not become atheists as a result of reason despite their testimony to that effect if you don t retract that claim do you retract the subsequent claim that acceptance of the axioms of reason inevitably result in atheism here is the context for the question first quote we have here a bunch of people who claim that their position is based on reason it is up to atheists to prove it to me then second quote but i do not see how one can accept these axioms and not end up with an atheistic point of view first you claimed that you would probably not answer these challenges because they contained too much in the way of included text from previous posts later you implied that you wouldn t respond because i was putting words in your mouth please clarify this seeming contradiction question do you prefer to respond to challenges that include context from your own posts or that i paraphrase your positions in order to avoid included text here is the context for the question first you said my ordinary rules are that i don t read articles over over lines or articles in which there is nothing but included text on the first screen these are not rules of morality but practicality then later if someone is not going to argue with my version of my position then they cannot be argued with as usual your responses are awaited with anticipation dave wood p s for the record below is a compilation of charley s responses to these challenges to date this makes no sense to me at all it gives the appearance either of utter incoherence or of answering some question of mr wood s imagination mr wood i do not subscribe to the opinion that a gauntlet thrown down on the net requires any response whatsoever at some point i might read and respond to your article and then again i might not my ordinary rules are that i don t read articles over over lines or articles in which there is nothing but included text on the first screen these are not rules of morality but practicality i left out something else i don t respond to utmost on my list of things to avoid are arguments about the arguments meta arguments as some call them when i have to start saying that s not what i said and the response is did so there s no reason to continue if someone is not going to argue with my version of my position then they cannot be argued with
alt.atheism	re political atheists halat pooh bears jim halat writes i think an objective morality does exist but that most flavors of morality are only approximations to it once again a natural or objective morality is fairly easily defined as long as you have a goal in mind that is what is the purpose of this morality maybe i m not quite getting what you mean by this but i think objective morality is an oxymoron by definition it seems any goal oriented issue like this is subjective by nature i don t get how you re using the word objective but the goal need not be a subjective one for instance the goal of natural morality is the propogation of a species perhaps it wasn t really until the more intelligent animals came along that some revisions to this were necessary intelligent animals have different needs than the others and hence a morality suited to them must be a bit more complicated than the law of the jungle i don t think that self actualization is so subjective as you might think and by objectivity i am assuming that the ideals of any such system could be carried out completely keith
alt.atheism	request for support i have a request for those who would like to see charley wingate respond to the charley challenges and judging from my e mail there appear to be quite a few of you it is clear that mr wingate intends to continue to post tangential or unrelated articles while ingoring the challenges themselves between the last two re postings of the challenges i noted perhaps a dozen or more posts by mr wingate none of which answered a single challenge it seems unmistakable to me that mr wingate hopes that the questions will just go away and he is doing his level best to change the subject given that this seems a rather common net theist tactic i would like to suggest that we impress upon him our desire for answers in the following manner ignore any future articles by mr wingate that do not address the challenges until he answers them or explictly announces that he refuses to do so or if you must respond to one of his articles include within it something similar to the following please answer the questions posed to you in the charley challenges really i m not looking to humiliate anyone here i just want some honest answers you wouldn t think that honesty would be too much to ask from a devout christian would you nevermind that was a rhetorical question dave wood
alt.atheism	re gospel dating in article mimsy umd edu mangoe cs umd edu charley wingate writes assuming you are presenting it accurately i don t see how this argument really leads to any firm conclusion the material in john i m not sure exactly what is referred to here but i ll take for granted the similarity to the matt luke q material is different hence one could have almost any relationship between the two right up to john getting it straight from jesus mouth no the argument says john has known q ie a codified version of the logia and not the original assuming that there has been one it has weaknesses of course like that john might have known the original yet rather referred to q in his text or that the logia were given in a codified version in the first place the argument alone does not allow a firm conclusion but it fits well into the dating usually given for the gospels we are talking date of texts here not the age of the authors the usual explanation for the time order of mark matthew and luke does not consider their respective ages it says matthew has read the text of mark and luke that of matthew and probably that of mark the version of the usual theory i have heard has matthew and luke independently relying on mark and q one would think that if luke relied on matthew we wouldn t have the grating inconsistencies in the geneologies for one thing not necessarily luke may have trusted the version he knew better than the version given by matthew improving on matthew would give a motive for instance as far as i know the theory that luke has known matthew is based on a statistical analysis of the texts as it is assumed that john knew the content of luke s text the evidence for that is not overwhelming admittedly this is the part that is particularly new to me if it were possible that you could point me to a reference i d be grateful yep but it will take another day or so to get the source i hope your german is good enough unfortunately i haven t got the info at hand it was i think in the late s or early s and it was possibly as old as ce when they are from about why do they shed doubt on the order on putting john after the rest of the three because it closes up the gap between supposed writing and the existing copy quit a bit the further away from the original the more copies can be written and therefore survival becomes more probable i still do not see how copies from allow to change the dating of john that john was a disciple is not generally accepted the style and language together with the theology are usually used as counterargument i m not really impressed with the theology argument but i m really pointing this out as an if and as i pointed out earlier one cannot make these arguments about i peter i see no reason not to accept it as an authentic letter yes but an if gives only possibilities and no evidence the authencity of many letters is still discussed it looks as if conclusions about them are not drawn because some pet dogmas of the churches would probably fall with them as well one step and one generation removed is bad even in our times compare that to reports of similar events in our century in almost illiterate societies the best analogy would be reporters talking to the participants which is not so bad well rather like some newsletter of a political party reporting from the big meeting not necessarily wrong but certainly bad in other words one does not know what the original of mark did look like and arguments based on mark are pretty weak but the statement of divinity is not in that section and in any case it s agreed that the most important epistles predate mark yes but the accuracy of their tradition is another problem question are there letters not from paul and predating mark claiming the divinity of jesus benedikt
alt.atheism	re americans and evolution in article ba c ac i dbstu rz tu bs de i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau writes in article pq tinn lp senator bedfellow mit edu bobs thnext mit edu robert singleton writes deletion i will argue that your latter statement i believe that no gods exist does rest upon faith that is if you are making a positive statement that no gods exist strong atheism rather than merely saying i don t know and therefore don t believe in them and don t not believe in then weak atheism once again to not believe in god is different than saying i believe that god does not exist i still maintain the position even after reading the faqs that strong atheism requires faith no it in the way it is usually used in my view you are saying here that driving a car requires faith that the car drives i m not saying this at all it requires no faith on my part to say the car drives because i ve seen it drive i ve done more than at in fact i ve actually driven it now what does require some faith is the belief that my senses give an accurate representation of what s out there but there is no evidence pro or con for the existence or non existence of god see what i have to say below on this for me it is a conclusion and i have no more faith in it than i have in the premises and the argument used sorry if i remain skeptical i don t believe it s entirely a conclusion that you have seen no evidence that there is a god is correct neither have i but lack of evidence for the existence of something is in no way evidence for the non existence of something the creationist have a similar mode of argumentation in which if they disprove evolution the establish creation you personally have never seen a neutrino before but they exist the pink unicorn analogy breaks down and is rather naive i have a scientific theory that explains the appearance of animal life evolution when i draw the conclusion that pink unicorns don t exist because i haven t seen them this conclusion has it s foundation in observation and theory a pink unicorn if it did exist would be qualitatively similar to other known entities that is to say since there is good evidence that all life on earth has evolved from more primitive ancestors these pink unicorns would share a common anscestory with horses and zebras and such god however has no such correspondence with anything imo there is no physical frame work of observation to draw any conclusions from but first let me say the following we might have a language problem here in regards to faith and existence i as a christian maintain that god does not exist to exist means to have being in space and time god does not have being god is being kierkegaard once said that god does not exist he is eternal with this said i feel it s rather pointless to debate the so called existence of god and that is not what i m doing here i believe that god is the source and ground of being when you say that god does not exist i also accept this statement but we obviously mean two different things by it however in what follows i will use the phrase the existence of god in it s usual sense and this is the sense that i think you are using it i would like a clarification upon what you mean by the existence of god no that s a word game i disagree with you profoundly on this i haven t defined god as existence in fact i haven t defined god but this might be getting off the subject although if you think it s relevant we can come back to it further saying god is existence is either a waste of time existence is already used and there is no need to replace it by god or you are implying more with it in which case your definition and your argument so far are incomplete making it a fallacy you are using wrong categories here or perhaps you misunderstand what i m saying i m making no argument what so ever and offering no definition so there is no fallacy i m not trying to convince you of anything i believe and that rests upon faith and it is inappropriate to apply the category of logic in this realm unless someone tells you that they can logically prove god or that they have evidence or then the use of logic to disprove their claims if fine and necessary btw an incomplete argument is not a fallacy some things are not even wrong deletion one can never prove that god does or does not exist when you say that you believe god does not exist and that this is an opinion based upon observation i will have to ask what observtions are you refering to there are no observations pro or con that are valid here in establishing a positive belief deletion where does that follow aren t observations based on the assumption that something exists i don t follow you here certainly one can make observations of things that they didn t know existed i still maintain that one cannot use observation to infer that god does not exist such a positive assertion requires a leap and wouldn t you say there is a level of definition that the assumption god is is meaningful if not i would reject that concept anyway so where is your evidence for that god is is meaningful at some level once again you seem to completely misunderstand me i have no evidence that god is is meaningful at any level maybe such a response as you gave just comes naturally to you because so many people try to run their own private conception of god down your throat i however am not doing this i am arguing one and only one thing that to make a positive assertion about something for which there can in principle be no evidence for or against requires a leap it requires faith i am as you would say a theist however there is a form of atheism that i can respect but it must be founded upon honesty benedikt bob singleton bobs thnext mit edu
alt.atheism	re second law was albert sabin joel hanes jjh diag amdahl com wrote mr connor s assertion that more complex later in paleontology is simply incorrect many lineages are known in which whole structures are lost for example snakes have lost their legs cave fish have lost their eyes some species have almost completely lost their males kiwis are descended from birds with functional wings joel the statements i made were illustrative of the inescapably anthrpomorphic quality of any desciption of an evolutionary process there is no way evolution can be described or explained in terms other than teleological that is my whole point even those who have reason to believe they understand evolution biologists for instance tend to personify nature and i can t help but wonder if it s because of the limits of the language or the nature of nature bill
alt.atheism	re gospel dating keith m ryan kmr po cwru edu wrote wild and fanciful claims require greater evidence if you state that one of the books in your room is blue i certainly do not need as much evidence to believe than if you were to claim that there is a two headed leapard in your bed and i don t mean a male lover in a leotard keith if the issue is what is truth then the consequences of whatever proposition argued is irrelevent if the issue is what are the consequences if such and such is true then truth is irrelevent which is it to be bill
alt.atheism	re gospel dating jim perry perry dsinc com wrote the bible says there is a god if that is true then our atheism is mistaken what of it seems pretty obvious to me socrates said there were many gods if that is true then your monotheism and our atheism is mistaken even if socrates never existed jim i think you must have come in late the discussion on my part at least began with benedikt s questioning of the historical acuuracy of the nt i was making the point that if the same standards are used to validate secular history that are used here to discredit nt history then virtually nothing is known of the first century you seem to be saying that the bible cannot be true because it speaks of the existence of god as it it were a fact your objection has nothing to do with history it is merely another statement of atheism bill
alt.atheism	re not the omni charley wingate mangoe cs umd edu wrote please enlighten me how is omnipotence contradictory by definition all that can occur in the universe is governed by the rules of nature thus god cannot break them anything that god does must be allowed in the rules somewhere therefore omnipotence cannot exist it contradicts the rules of nature obviously an omnipotent god can change the rules when you say by definition what exactly is being defined certainly not omnipotence you seem to be saying that the rules of nature are pre existant somehow that they not only define nature but actually cause it if that s what you mean i d like to hear your further thoughts on the question bill
alt.atheism	re if only he knew prudenti juncol juniata edu wrote upon arriving at home joseph probably took advantage of mary had his way with her so to speak of course word of this couldn t get around so mary being the highly religious follower that she was decided hey i ll just say that god impregnated me no one will ever know thus seen as a trustworthy and honorable soul she was believed and then came jesus the child born from violence dave can you explain the purpose of your post i can t imagine what you must have thougt it meant bill
alt.atheism	re allah akbar and praise the lord maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com wrote and thank the lord that bill connor has returned to set us straight now i know i can die happy when my lexus se wipes out on that rain slick curve in the rest of you had best straighten up because your time is even more limited most of you are going in the flu of maddi you know you re glad to have me visit but i won t stay long this time just shopping around bill
alt.atheism	re dear mr theist pixie dl andy bgsu edu wrote for all the problems technology has caused your types have made things even worse must we be reminded of the inquisition operation rescue the ku klux klan posse comitatus the club david duke salem witch trials the crusades gay bashings etc plus virtually each and every single war regardless of the level of technology has had theistic organizations cheering on the carnage chaplains etc and claiming that god was in favor of the whole ordeal don t forget to pray for our troops this is really tedious every bad thing that s ever happened is because the malefactors were under the influence of religion does anyone really believe that i ve seen it so often it must be a pretty general opinion in a a but i want to believe that atheists are really not that dishonest please stick to the facts and having accomplished that interpret them correctly bill
alt.atheism	re is morality constant was re biblical rape jim perry perry dsinc com wrote xenophobia both de facto and de jure as implemented in legal systems is widespread while the bible although not egalitarian specifically preaches kindness to the stranger and emphasizes in the book of ruth that a foreigner can join the nation and give rise to one of the great heroes of the nation clearly better than the alternative but as an american what strikes me as strange about this story is that it should have even been considered an issue jim there are a couple of things about your post and others in this thread that are a little confusing an atheist is one for whom all things can be understood as processes of nature exclusively there is no need for any recourse to divnity to describe or explain anything there is no purpose or direction for any event beyond those required by physics chemistry biology etc everything is random nothing is determnined this would also have to include human intelligence of course and all its products there is nothing requiring that life evolve or that it acquire intelligence it s just a happy accident for an atheist no event can be preferred to another or be said to have more or less value than another in any naturalistic sense and no thought about an event can have value the products of our intelligence are acquired from our environment from teaching training observation and experience and are only significant to the individual mind wherein they reside these mental processes and the images they produce for us are just electrical activity and nothing more content is of no consequence the human mind is as much a response to natural forces as water running down a hill how then can an atheist judge value what is the basis for criticizing the values ennumerated in the bible or the purposes imputed to god on what grounds can the the behavior of the reliogious be condemned it seems that in judging the values that motivate others to action you have to have some standard against which conduct is measured but what in nature can serve that purpose what law of nature can you invoke to establish your values since every event is entirely and exclusively a physical event what difference could it possibly make what anyone does religious or otherwise there can be no meaning or gradation of value the only way an atheist can object to any behaviour is to admit that the objection is entirely subjective and that he she just doesn t like it that s it any value judgement must be prefaced by the disclaimer that it is nothing more than a matter of personal opinion and carries no weight in any absolute sense that you don t like what god told people to do says nothing about god or god s commands it says only that there was an electrical event in your nervous system that created an emotional state that your mind coupled with a pre existing thought set to form that reaction that your objections seem well founded is due to the way you ve been conditioned there is no truth content the whole of your intellectual landscape is an illusion a virtual reality i didn t make these rules it s inherent in naturalistic atheism and to be consistent you have to accept the non significance of any human thought even your own all of this being so you have excluded yourself from any discussion of values right wrong goood evil etc and cannot participate your opinion about the bible can have no weight whatsoever bill
alt.atheism	re bill conner could you explain what any of this pertains to is this a position statement on something or typing practice and why are you using my name do you think this relates to anything i ve said and if so what bill
alt.atheism	re islam dress code for women in ba c i dbstu rz tu bs de i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau writes in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes deletion of course people say what they think to be the religion and that this is not exactly the same coming from different people within the religion there is nothing with there existing different perspectives within the religion perhaps one can say that they tend to converge on the truth my point is that they are doing a lot of harm on the way in the meantime and that they converge is counterfactual religions appear to split and diverge even when there might be a true religion at the core the layers above determine what happens in practise and they are quite inhumane usually what you post then is supposed to be an answer but i don t see what is has got to do with what i say i will repeat it religions as are harm people and religions don t converge they split giving more to disagree upon and there is a lot of disagreement to whom one should be tolerant or if one should be tolerant at all ideologies also split giving more to disagree upon and may also lead to intolerance so do you also oppose all ideologies i don t think your argument is an argument against religion at all but just points out the weaknesses of human nature big deletion do women have souls in islam people have said here that some muslims say that women do not have souls i must admit i have never heard of such a view being held by muslims of any era i have heard of some christians of some eras holding this viewpoint but not muslims are you sure you might not be confusing christian history with islamic history yes it is supposed to have been a predominant view in the turkish caliphate i would like a reference if you have got one for this is news to me anyhow that women are the spiritual equals of men can be clearly shown from many verses of the qur an for example the qur an says for muslim men and women for believing men and women for devout men and women for true men and women for men and women who are patient and constant for men and women who humble themselves for men and women who give in charity for men and women who fast and deny themselves for men and women who guard their chastity and for men and women who engage much in god s praise for them has god prepared forgiveness and a great reward qur an abdullah yusuf ali s translation there are other quotes too but i think the above quote shows that men and women are spiritual equals and thus that women have souls just as men do very clearly no it does not it implies that they have souls but it does not say they have souls and it is not given that the quote above is given a high priority in all interpretations one must approach the qur an with intelligence any thinking approach to the qur an cannot but interpret the above verse and others like it that women and men are spiritual equals i think that the above verse does clearly imply that women have souls does it make any sense for something without a soul to be forgiven or to have a great reward understood to be in the after life i think the usual answer would be no in which case the part saying for them has god prepared forgiveness and a great reward says they have souls if it makes sense to say that things without souls can be forgiven then i have no idea what a soul is as for your saying that the quote above may not be given a high priority in all interpretations any thinking approach to the qur an has to give all verses of the qur an equal priority that is because according to muslim belief the whole qur an is the revelation of god in fact denying the truth of any part of the qur an is sufficient to be considered a disbeliever in islam quite similar to you other post even when the quran does not encourage slavery it is not justified to say that iit forbids or puts an end to slavery it is a non sequitur look any approach to the qur an must be done with intelligence and thought it is in this fashion that one can try to understand the quran s message in a book of finite length it cannot explicitly answer every question you want to put to it but through its teachings it can guide you i think however that women are the spiritual equals of men is clearly and unambiguously implied in the above verse and that since women can clearly be forgiven and rewarded they must have souls from the above verse let s try to understand what the qur an is trying to teach rather than try to see how many ways it can be misinterpreted by ignoring this passage or that passage the misinterpretations of the qur an based on ignoring this verse or that verse are infinite but the interpretations fully consistent are more limited let s try to discuss these interpretations consistent with the text rather than how people can ignore this bit or that bit for that is just showing how people can try to twist islam for their own ends something i do not deny but provides no reflection on the true teachings of islam whatsoever fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
alt.atheism	re slavery was re why is sex only allowed in marriage in apr ennews eas asu edu guncer enuxha eas asu edu selim guncer writes you might not like what bernard lewis writes about label him as a zionist or such to discredit him etc you misrepresent me selim the hard evidence for my statements about his lack of objectivity are presented quite clearly in the book orientalism by edward said edward said by the way is a christian not a muslim i think he is pretty much objective in his treatment in race and slavery in the middle east since he clearly distinguishes between slavery under islam and the practice of slavery in other countries like the us prior to the civil war he also does not conceal that there are verses in the quran which promote the liberation of slaves what he doesn t and i don t think nobody can deduce from these verses is that slavery will eventually be abolished in islamic countries now you might rather conveniently blame the practice of slavery on muslims but the facts are out there i also fail to see the relevance of the claim of lewis being a zionist to what i wrote regarding bernard lewis him being a zionist gives him a political motive for his giving misrepresentations and half truths about islam read orientalism by edward said see the evidence for yourself in fact i may post some of it here if it isn t too long they were encyclopaedic information which anybody can access that slavery was abolished at certain dates some years after muhammed that this was the cause of tensions in the ottoman empire between the arab slave traders and the government etc we also have in the asu library volumes of british documents on slavery where reports and documents concerning slavery all around the world can be found which i checked some of the incidents lewis mentions so i don t think ones political stance has anything to do with documentary evidence i haven t read lewis s article so i can t comment directly upon it and have only spoken about his writings in general so far that his political motives make him a biased writer on islam his anti islamic polemics as i understand it are often quite subtle and are often based on telling half truths again read orientalism by edward said i am not asking you to take what i say on trust in fact i am urging you not to do so but to get this book it is a well known book and check the evidence out for yourself the issue i raised was that slaves were used for sexual purposes when it was claimed that islam prohibits extra marital sex i wrote that the prophet himself had concubines i wrote an incident in which the prophet advised on someone who did not want his concubine to get pregnant etc which is contrary to the notion that sex is for procreation only in other words such claims are baseless in the quran and the hadith if slavery is in reality as opposed to in the practice of some muslims opposed by islam then using slaves for sexual purposes is necessarily opposed too i seem to be unsuccesful in getting through to you islam is not advocating slavery slavery was an existing institution in the th century it advised on slaves being freed for good deeds etc which is nothing new many cultures saw this as a good thing what is the problem here but i can argue rightfully that slaves were discouraged about thinking about their statuses politically the quran rewards the good slave so obey your master and perhaps one day you ll be free but it is very understandable that i do not communicate with muslims since they assume the quran is from a god and i think it is a rule based system imposed on the society for preservation of the status quo slaves are a part of this system the subordination of women so that their function in society boils down to child making is a part of this system etc i understand your point of view selim i think rather it is us who are not getting through to you some of the points you repeat above i have already answered before regarding women i have made posting after posting on this subject showing that islam is not anti woman etc however have you been completely ignoring my postings or just missing them i just reposted a very good one under the title islam and women reposted from soc religion islam if this has already disappeared from your site then please email me telling me so and i will email you a copy of this excellent article imho your understanding of the issue of women in islam is sadly deficient regarding slaves my posting on slavery the second one i made which is a repost of an article i wrote early last year is based completely on the qur an and contains numerous qur anic verses and hadiths to support its point of view our approaches are different you are arguing from a historical standpoint and i am arguing directly from the teachings of the qur an and hadiths now just because people say they are muslims and perform a particular action does that automatically mean that their action is part of islam even if it is opposed by the qur an and sunnah no of course not let me give you a concrete example which might help clarify this for you the qur an prohibits drinking now if a person says i am a muslim and then proceeds to drink a bottle of beer does this now mean that islam teaches that people should drink beer of course not and only an idiot would think so do you see my point it is very natural to think that the author authors of the quran had no idea that the socio economic structure they were advocating would experience at least two paradigm shifts in years in the western cultures first with the end of the feudal era and the rise of commerce second with the industrial revolution well rules have changed and the status quo has driven muslim countries into misery trying to survive in a heathen world muslim countries have failed economically they were unable to accumulate any wealth directly due to the uncomprimising economic rules in the quran in fact the rise of islam can easily be modeled after the pyramid effect you do not produce any wealth at home but increase your wealth by conquering places you are judging islam here on capitalist terms capitalism is an ideology based largely on the assumption that people want to maximise their wealth this assumption is in opposition to islamic teachings to say islam is bad because it is not capitalist is pretty unthinking islam does not pretend to be capitalist and does not try to be capitalist this does not mean that islam does not support a free market for it does in general but there are other parts of capitalism which are opposed to islam as i understand it when this stopped you and i were left bare in the open for emperialists to devour no capital no industry very poor social services the education level in muslim countries are the lowest in the world the health statistics are miserable etc one can postulate numerous reasons for this your theory is that it is because islam is not secularist and capitalist etc etc selim i will give you a clear historical example to show you the fallacy of your views if you think as you obviously do that islam lack of education and power for a large part of history the islamic world was very powerful for a significant section of history the islamic world was the foremost in the sciences so to say that islam is for example anti education is completely absurd you try to blame this situation on islam history shows that your conclusion is false and that instead there must be other reasons for this situation you blame muslims for not following the quran but i blame muslims for following the quran well selim your viewpoint on women in islam makes me question the extent of your knowledge of islam i really think you are not knowledgeable enough to be able to judge whether the muslims are following the qur an or not your idea is baseless from historical facts it is a poor utopia the islamic world was at the forefront of the world in science at one stage yet somehow in your theory it is by following the qur an that muslims are backwards in education selim it is your thesis that is anti historical for you conveniently overlook this historical fact which contradicts your theory while my ideas are derived from social and economic history you have certainly not shown this you have merely stated it so far it seems to me that your view on islam being anti education is quite contrary to history that you are so convinced of your views makes me wonder just how objectively you are trying to look at all of this my solution to all muslims is simple cut the crap i think selim you should consider taking your own advice get the facts straight here too and work hard to reverse the effects of years of ignorance selim you have such conviction of your viewpoint yet you demonstrate ignorance not only of islam but also of islamic history particularly with respect to muslims being leaders of science till about or so i think yet you say that your viewpoint is based on history selim if i remember right you say in one of your earlier posts that you are an apostate from islam i think you should slow down and start thinking clearly about the issues and start reading some of our postings about islam rather than ignoring them as you so obviously have fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
alt.atheism	re jews can t hide from keith cco in article pqdor s fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in article apr bmerh bnr ca dgraham bmers bnr ca douglas graham writes the poster casually trashed two thousand years of jewish history and ken replied that there had previously been people like him in germany i think the problem here is that i pretty much ignored the part about the jews sightseeing for years thinking instead that the important part of what the original poster said was the bit about killing palestinians in retrospect i can see how the sightseeing thing would be offensive to many i originally saw it just as poetic license but it s understandable that others might see it differently i still think that ken came on a bit strong though i also think that your advice to masud khan before you argue with someone like mr arromdee it s a good idea to do a little homework or at least think was unnecessary that s right there have been there have also been people who were formally nazis but the nazi party would have gone nowhere without the active and tacit support of the ordinary man in the street who behaved as though casual anti semitism was perfectly acceptable now what exactly don t you understand about what i wrote and why don t you see what it has to do with the matter at hand throughout all your articles in this thread there is the tacit assumption that the original poster was exhibiting casual anti semitism if i agreed with that then maybe your speech on why this is bad might have been relevant but i think you re reading a lot into one flip sentence while probably not true in this case too often the charge of anti semitism gets thrown around in order to stifle legitimate criticism of the state of israel anyway i d rather be somewhere else so i m outta this thread doug graham dgraham bnr ca my opinions are my own
alt.atheism	alt atheism faq frequently asked questions archive name atheism faq alt atheism archive name faq last modified april version alt atheism frequently asked questions this file contains responses to articles which occur repeatedly in alt atheism points covered here are ones which are not covered in the introduction to atheism you are advised to read that article as well before posting these answers are not intended to be exhaustive or definitive the purpose of the periodic faq postings is not to stifle debate but to raise its level if you have something to say concerning one of these questions and which isn t covered by the answer given please feel free to make your point overview of contents what is the purpose of this newsgroup hitler was an atheist the bible proves it pascal s wager what is occam s razor why it s good to believe in jesus why i know that god exists einstein and god does not play dice everyone worships something why there must be a causeless cause the universe is so complex it must have been designed independent evidence that the bible is true godel s incompleteness theorem george bush on atheism and patriotism i know where hell is biblical contradictions wanted the usa is a christian nation the usa is not a christian nation subject what is the purpose of this newsgroup typical posting why have a newsgroup about atheism why do atheists organize in groups what is there to discuss response many things are discussed here including whether it is reasonable to feign theism in order to avoid upsetting one s family prayer in schools discrimination against atheists sunday trading laws the satanic child abuse myth whether one should be an overt atheist or stay in the closet how religious societies prey sic on new college students how to get rid of unwanted proselytizers whether religion is a danger to society and or the individual why people become atheists of course inevitably alt atheism tends to attract evangelical christians looking for someone to convert most readers of the newsgroup don t want to be preached to although a few seem to derive perverse pleasure from tearing apart particularly ill considered or uninformed postings subject hitler was an atheist typical posting hitler was an atheist and look at what he did response adolf hitler was emphatically not an atheist as he said himself the folkish minded man in particular has the sacred duty each in his own denomination of making people stop just talking superficially of god s will and actually fulfill god s will and not let god s word be desecrated orig ital for god s will gave men their form their essence and their abilities anyone who destroys his work is declaring war on the lord s creation the divine will therefore let every man be active each in his own denomination if you please and let every man take it as his first and most sacred duty to oppose anyone who in his activity by word or deed steps outside the confines of his religious community and tries to butt into the other hence today i believe that i am acting in accordance with the will of the almighty creator by defending myself against the jew i am fighting for the work of the lord orig ital adolf hitler from mein kampf trans ralph mannheim of course someone bad believing something does not make that belief wrong it s also entirely possible that hitler was lying when he claimed to believe in god we certainly can t conclude that he s an atheist though subject the bible proves it typical posting in the bible it says that response most of the readers of alt atheism feel that the bible is of questionable accuracy as it was written thousands of years ago by many authors who were recording oral tradition that existed many years before thus any claimed truth in it is of questionable legitimacy this isn t to say that the bible has no truth in it simply that any truth must be examined before being accepted many of the readers of this group also feel that because any passage is subject to interpretation any claim that a passage means one thing and one thing only is not legitimate note that this feeling tends to extend to other books it is also remarkable to many atheists that theists tend to ignore other equally plausible religious books in favour of those of their own religion subject pascal s wager typical posting if you believe in god and turn out to be incorrect you have lost nothing but if you don t believe in god and turn out to be incorrect you will go to hell therefore it is foolish to be an atheist response this argument is known as pascal s wager it has several flaws firstly it does not indicate which religion to follow indeed there are many mutually exclusive and contradictory religions out there this is often described as the avoiding the wrong hell problem if a person is a follower of religion x he may end up in religion y s version of hell secondly the statement that if you believe in god and turn out to be incorrect you have lost nothing is not true suppose you re believing in the wrong god the true god might punish you for your foolishness consider also the deaths that have resulted from people rejecting medicine in favour of prayer another flaw in the argument is that it is based on the assumption that the two possibilities are equally likely or at least that they are of comparable likelihood if in fact the possibility of there being a god is close to zero the argument becomes much less persuasive so sadly the argument is only likely to convince those who believe already also many feel that for intellectually honest people belief is based on evidence with some amount of intuition it is not a matter of will or cost benefit analysis formally speaking the argument consists of four statements one does not know whether god exists not believing in god is bad for one s eternal soul if god does exist believing in god is of no consequence if god does not exist therefore it is in one s interest to believe in god there are two approaches to the argument the first is to view as an assumption and as a consequence of it one problem with this approach in the abstract is that it creates information from no information this is considered invalid in information theory statement indicates one has no information about god but statement indicates that beneficial information can be gained from the absolute lack of information about god this violates information entropy information has been extracted from no information at no cost the alternative approach is to claim that and are both assumptions the problem with this is that is then basically an assumption which states the christian position and only a christian will agree with that assumption the argument thus collapses to if you are a christian it is in your interests to believe in god a rather vacuous tautology and not the way pascal intended the argument to be viewed the biggest reason why pascal s wager is a failure is that if god is omniscient he will certainly know who really believes and who believes as a wager he will spurn the latter assuming he actually cares at all whether people believe in him subject what is occam s razor typical posting people keep talking about occam s razor what is it response william of occam formulated a principle which has become known as occam s razor in its original form it said do not multiply entities unnecessarily that is if you can explain something without supposing the existence of some entity then do so nowadays when people refer to occam s razor they generally express it more generally for example as take the simplest solution the relevance to atheism is that we can look at two possible explanations for what we see around us there is an incredibly intricate and complex universe out there which came into being as a result of natural processes there is an incredibly intricate and complex universe out there and there is also a god who created the universe clearly this god must be of non zero complexity given that both explanations fit the facts occam s razor might suggest that we should take the simpler of the two solution number one unfortunately some argue that there is a third even more simple solution there isn t an incredibly intricate and complex universe out there we just imagine that there is this third option leads us logically towards solipsism which many people find unacceptable subject why it s good to believe in jesus typical posting i want to tell people about the virtues and benefits of my religion response preaching is not appreciated feel free to talk about your religion but please do not write postings that are on a conversion theme such postings do not belong on alt atheism and will be rejected from alt atheism moderated try the newsgroup talk religion misc you would doubtless not welcome postings from atheists to your favourite newsgroup in an attempt to convert you please do unto others as you would have them do unto you often theists make their basic claims about god in the form of lengthy analogies or parables be aware that atheists have heard of god and know the basic claims about him if the sole purpose of your parable is to tell atheists that god exists and brings salvation you may as well not post it since it tells us nothing we have not been told before subject why i know that god exists typical posting i know from personal experience and prayer that god exists response just as many theists have personal evidence that the being they worship exists so many atheists have personal evidence that such beings do not exist that evidence varies from person to person furthermore without wishing to dismiss your evidence out of hand many people have claimed all kinds of unlikely things that they have been abducted by ufos visited by the ghost of elvis and so on subject einstein and god does not play dice typical posting albert einstein believed in god do you think you re cleverer than him response einstein did once comment that god does not play dice with the universe this quotation is commonly mentioned to show that einstein believed in the christian god used this way it is out of context it refers to einstein s refusal to accept the uncertainties indicated by quantum theory furthermore einstein s religious background was jewish rather than christian a better quotation showing what einstein thought about god is the following i believe in spinoza s god who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists not in a god who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings einstein was unable to accept quantum theory because of his belief in an objective orderly reality a reality which would not be subject to random events and which would not be dependent upon the observer he believed that qm was incomplete and that a better theory would have no need for statistical interpretations so far no such better theory has been found and much evidence suggests that it never will be a longer quote from einstein appears in science philosophy and religion a symposium published by the conference on science philosophy and religion in their relation to the democratic way of life inc new york in it he says the more a man is imbued with the ordered regularity of all events the firmer becomes his conviction that there is no room left by the side of this ordered regularity for causes of a different nature for him neither the rule of human nor the rule of divine will exists as an independent cause of natural events to be sure the doctrine of a personal god interfering with natural events could never be refuted italics his in the real sense by science for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot but i am convinced that such behavior on the part of representatives of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal for a doctrine which is to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark will of necessity lose its effect on mankind with incalculable harm to human progress in their struggle for the ethical good teachers of religion must have the stature to give up the doctrine of a personal god that is give up that source of fear and hope which in the past placed such vast power in the hands of priests in their labors they will have to avail themselves of those forces which are capable of cultivating the good the true and the beautiful in humanity itself this is to be sure a more difficult but an incomparably more worthy task einstein has also said it was of course a lie what you read about my religous convictions a lie which is being systematically repeated i do not believe in a personal god and i have never denied this but have expressed it clearly if something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it the latter quote is from albert einstein the human side edited by helen dukas and banesh hoffman and published by princeton university press also from the same book i do not believe in immortality of the individual and i consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it of course the fact that einstein chose not to believe in christianity does not in itself imply that christianity is false subject everyone worships something typical posting everyone worships something whether it s money power or god response if that is true everyone is a polytheist theists care just as much about those things that atheists care about if the atheists reactions to for example their families amount to worship then so do the theists subject why there must be a causeless cause typical posting sets of integers that have a lower bound each have a smallest member so chains of causes must all have a first element a causeless cause response the set of real numbers greater than zero has a definite lower bound but has no smallest member further even if it is true that there must be a causeless cause that does not imply that that cause must be a conscious supernatural entity and especially not that any such entity must match the description favoured by any particular religion subject the universe is so complex it must have been designed typical posting the presence of design in the universe proves there is a god surely you don t think all this appeared here just by chance response this is known as the argument from design it is a matter of dispute whether there is any element of design in the universe those who believe that the complexity and diversity of living creatures on the earth is evidence of a creator are best advised to read the newsgroup talk origins for a while there is insufficient space to summarize both sides of that debate here however the conclusion is that there is no scientific evidence in favour of so called scientific creationism furthermore there is much evidence observation and theory that can explain many of the complexities of the universe and life on earth the origin of the argument by design is a feeling that the existence of something as incredibly intricate as say a human is so improbable that surely it can t have come about by chance that surely there must be some external intelligence directing things so that humans come from the chaos deliberately but if human intelligence is so improbable surely the existence of a mind capable of fashioning an entire universe complete with conscious beings must be immeasurably more unlikely the approach used to argue in favour of the existence of a creator can be turned around and applied to the creationist position this leads us to the familiar theme of if a creator created the universe what created the creator but with the addition of spiralling improbability the only way out is to declare that the creator was not created and just is or was from here we might as well ask what is wrong with saying that the universe just is without introducing a creator indeed stephen hawking in his book a brief history of time explains his theory that the universe is closed and finite in extent with no beginning or end the argument from design is often stated by analogy in the so called watchmaker argument one is asked to imagine that one has found a watch on the beach does one assume that it was created by a watchmaker or that it evolved naturally of course one assumes a watchmaker yet like the watch the universe is intricate and complex so the argument goes the universe too must have a creator the watchmaker analogy suffers from three particular flaws over and above those common to all arguments by design firstly a watchmaker creates watches from pre existing materials whereas god is claimed to have created the universe from nothing these two sorts of creation are clearly fundamentally different and the analogy is therefore rather weak secondly a watchmaker makes watches but there are many other things in the world if we walked further along the beach and found a nuclear reactor we wouldn t assume it was created by the watchmaker the argument would therefore suggest a multitude of creators each responsible for a different part of creation finally in the first part of the watchmaker argument we conclude that the watch is not part of nature because it is ordered and therefore stands out from the randomness of nature yet in the second part of the argument we start from the position that the universe is obviously not random but shows elements of order the watchmaker argument is thus internally inconsistent subject independent evidence that the bible is true typical posting the events of the new testament are confirmed by independent documentary evidence for example response the writings of josephus are often mentioned as independent documentary evidence early versions of josephus s work are thought not to have mentioned jesus or james the extant version discusses john in a non christian context many scholars believe that the original mentioned jesus and james in passing but that this was expanded by christian copyists several reconstructions of the original text have been published to this effect much information appears in the ecclesiastical history of eusebius about c e it is worthless as historical material because of the deliberate falsification of the wily eusebius who is generally acknowledged as the first thoroughly dishonest historian of antiquity it is eusebius who is generally given the title of authorship for this material aside from the new testament the biographical information about jesus is more well documented for further information please consult the frequently asked questions file for the newsgroup soc religion christian subject godel s incompleteness theorem typical posting godel s incompleteness theorem demonstrates that it is impossible for the bible to be both true and complete response godel s first incompleteness theorem says that in any consistent formal system which is sufficiently expressive that it can model ordinary arithmetic one can formulate expressions which can never be proven to be valid or invalid true or false within that formal system technically speaking the system must also be recursive that is there must be a decision procedure for determining whether a given string is an axiom within the formal system essentially all such systems can formulate what is known as a liar paradox the classic liar paradox sentence in ordinary english is this sentence is false note that if a proposition is undecidable the formal system cannot even deduce that it is undecidable the logic used in theological discussions is rarely well defined so claims that godel s incompleteness theorem demonstrates that it is impossible to prove or disprove the existence of god are worthless in isolation one can trivially define a formal system in which it is possible to prove the existence of god simply by having the existence of god stated as an axiom this is unlikely to be viewed by atheists as a convincing proof however it may be possible to succeed in producing a formal system built on axioms that both atheists and theists agree with it may then be possible to show that godel s incompleteness theorem holds for that system however that would still not demonstrate that it is impossible to prove that god exists within the system furthermore it certainly wouldn t tell us anything about whether it is possible to prove the existence of god generally note also that all of these hypothetical formal systems tell us nothing about the actual existence of god the formal systems are just abstractions another frequent claim is that godel s incompleteness theorem demonstrates that a religious text the bible the book of mormon or whatever cannot be both consistent and universally applicable religious texts are not formal systems so such claims are nonsense subject george bush on atheism and patriotism typical posting did george bush really say that atheists should not be considered citizens response the following exchange took place at the chicago airport between robert i sherman of american atheist press and george bush on august sherman is a fully accredited reporter and was present by invitation as a member of the press corps the republican presidential nominee was there to announce federal disaster relief for illinois the discussion turned to the presidential primary rs what will you do to win the votes of americans who are atheists gb i guess i m pretty weak in the atheist community faith in god is important to me rs surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of americans who are atheists gb no i don t know that atheists should be considered as citizens nor should they be considered patriots this is one nation under god rs do you support as a sound constitutional principle the separation of state and church gb yes i support the separation of church and state i m just not very high on atheists upi reported on may that various atheist organizations were still angry over the remarks the exchange appeared in the boulder daily camera on monday february it can also be found in free enquiry magazine fall issue volume number page on october mr sherman had a confrontation with ed murnane cochairman of the bush quayle illinois campaign this concerned a lawsuit mr sherman had filed to stop the community consolidated school district chicago illinois from forcing his first grade atheist son to pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states as one nation under god bush s phrase the following conversation took place rs american atheists filed the pledge of allegiance lawsuit yesterday does the bush campaign have an official response to this filing em it s bullshit rs what is bullshit em everything that american atheists does rob is bullshit rs thank you for telling me what the official position of the bush campaign is on this issue em you re welcome after bush s election american atheists wrote to bush asking him to retract his statement on february st c boyden gray counsel to the president replied on white house stationery that bush substantively stood by his original statement and wrote as you are aware the president is a religious man who neither supports atheism nor believes that atheism should be unnecessarily encouraged or supported by the government for further information contact american atheist veterans at the american atheist press s cameron road address subject i know where hell is typical posting i know where hell is hell is in norway response there are several towns called hell in various countries around the world including norway and the usa whilst this information is mildly amusing the first time one hears it readers of alt atheism are now getting pretty fed up with hearing it every week subject biblical contradictions wanted typical posting does anyone have a list of biblical contradictions response american atheist press publish an atheist s handbook detailing biblical contradictions see the accompanying posting on atheist resources for details there is a file containing some biblical contradictions available from the archive server mantis co uk see the contacts file for more information subject the usa is a christian nation typical posting because of the religious beliefs of the founding fathers shouldn t the united states be considered a christian nation response based upon the writings of several important founding fathers it is clear that they never intended the us to be a christian nation here are some quotes there are many more what influence in fact have ecclesiastical establishments had on society in some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries a just government instituted to secure and perpetuate it needs them not james madison a memorial and remonstrance i almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved the cross consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced john adams in a letter to thomas jefferson history i believe furnishes no example of a priest ridden people maintaining a free civil government this marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose thomas jefferson to baron von humboldt i cannot conceive otherwise than that he the infinite father expects or requires no worship or praise from us but that he is even infinitely above it benjamin franklin from articles of belief and acts of religion nov subject the usa is not a christian nation typical posting is it true that george washington said that the united states is not in any sense founded upon the christian religion response no the quotation often given is in fact from article xi of the treaty of tripoli stat treaty series article as the government of the united states of america is not in any sense founded on the christian religion as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws religion or tranquility of musselmen and as the said states never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any mehomitan nation it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries the text may be found in the congressional record or in treaty collections such as charles bevans treaties and other international agreements of the united states of america vol pp the english text of the treaty of tripoli was approved by the u s senate on june and ratified by president john adams on june it was recently discovered that the arabic version of the treaty not only lacks the quotation it lacks article xi altogether the person who translated the arabic to english was joel barlow consul general at algiers a close friend of thomas paine and an opponent of christianity it is possible that barlow made up article xi but since there is no arabic version of that article to be found it s hard to say in a new treaty of tripoli was ratified which no longer contained the quotation end of faq digest
alt.atheism	alt atheism faq constructing a logical argument archive name atheism logic alt atheism archive name logic last modified april version constructing a logical argument although there is much argument on usenet the general quality of argument found is poor this article attempts to provide a gentle introduction to logic in the hope of improving the general level of debate logic is the science of reasoning proof thinking or inference concise oed logic allows us to analyze a piece of reasoning and determine whether it is correct or not valid or invalid of course one does not need to study logic in order to reason correctly nevertheless a little basic knowledge of logic is often helpful when constructing or analyzing an argument note that no claim is being made here about whether logic is universally applicable the matter is very much open for debate this document merely explains how to use logic given that you have already decided that logic is the right tool for the job propositions or statements are the building blocks of a logical argument a proposition is a statement which is either true or false for example it is raining or today is tuesday propositions may be either asserted said to be true or denied said to be false note that this is a technical meaning of deny not the everyday meaning the proposition is the meaning of the statement not the particular arrangement of words used to express it so god exists and there exists a god both express the same proposition an argument is to quote the monty python sketch a connected series of statements to establish a definite proposition an argument consists of three stages first of all the propositions which are necessary for the argument to continue are stated these are called the premises of the argument they are the evidence or reasons for accepting the argument and its conclusions premises or assertions are often indicated by phrases such as because since obviously and so on the phrase obviously is often viewed with suspicion as it can be used to intimidate others into accepting suspicious premises if something doesn t seem obvious to you don t be afraid to question it you can always say oh yes you re right it is obvious when you ve heard the explanation next the premises are used to derive further propositions by a process known as inference in inference one proposition is arrived at on the basis of one or more other propositions already accepted there are various forms of valid inference the propositions arrived at by inference may then be used in further inference inference is often denoted by phrases such as implies that or therefore finally we arrive at the conclusion of the argument the proposition which is affirmed on the basis of the premises and inference conclusions are often indicated by phrases such as therefore it follows that we conclude and so on the conclusion is often stated as the final stage of inference for example every event has a cause premise the universe has a beginning premise all beginnings involve an event premise this implies that the beginning of the universe involved an event inference therefore the universe has a cause inference and conclusion note that the conclusion of one argument might be a premise in another argument a proposition can only be called a premise or a conclusion with respect to a particular argument the terms do not make sense in isolation sometimes an argument will not follow the order given above for example the conclusions might be stated first and the premises stated afterwards in support of the conclusion this is perfectly valid if sometimes a little confusing recognizing an argument is much harder than recognizing premises or conclusions many people shower their writing with assertions without ever producing anything which one might reasonably describe as an argument some statements look like arguments but are not for example if the bible is accurate jesus must either have been insane an evil liar or the son of god this is not an argument it is a conditional statement it does not assert the premises which are necessary to support what appears to be its conclusion it also suffers from a number of other logical flaws but we ll come to those later another example god created you therefore do your duty to god the phrase do your duty to god is not a proposition since it is neither true nor false therefore it is not a conclusion and the sentence is not an argument finally causality is important consider a statement of the form a because b if we re interested in establishing a and b is offered as evidence the statement is an argument if we re trying to establish the truth of b then it is not an argument it is an explanation for example there must be something wrong with the engine of my car because it will not start this is an argument my car will not start because there is something wrong with the engine this is an explanation there are two traditional types of argument deductive and inductive a deductive argument is one which provides conclusive proof of its conclusions that is an argument where if the premises are true the conclusion must also be true a deductive argument is either valid or invalid a valid argument is defined as one where if the premises are true then the conclusion is true an inductive argument is one where the premises provide some evidence for the truth of the conclusion inductive arguments are not valid or invalid however we can talk about whether they are better or worse than other arguments and about how probable their premises are there are forms of argument in ordinary language which are neither deductive nor inductive however we will concentrate for the moment on deductive arguments as they are often viewed as the most rigorous and convincing it is important to note that the fact that a deductive argument is valid does not imply that its conclusion holds this is because of the slightly counter intuitive nature of implication which we must now consider more carefully obviously a valid argument can consist of true propositions however an argument may be entirely valid even if it contains only false propositions for example all insects have wings premise woodlice are insects premise therefore woodlice have wings conclusion here the conclusion is not true because the argument s premises are false if the argument s premises were true however the conclusion would be true the argument is thus entirely valid more subtly we can reach a true conclusion from one or more false premises as in all fish live in the sea premise dolphins are fish premise therefore dolphins live in the sea conclusion however the one thing we cannot do is reach a false conclusion through valid inference from true premises we can therefore draw up a truth table for implication the symbol denotes implication a is the premise b the conclusion t and f represent true and false respectively premise conclusion inference a b a b f f t if the premises are false and the inference f t t valid the conclusion can be true or false t f f if the premises are true and the conclusion false the inference must be invalid t t t if the premises are true and the inference valid the conclusion must be true a sound argument is a valid argument whose premises are true a sound argument therefore arrives at a true conclusion be careful not to confuse valid arguments with sound arguments to delve further into the structure of logical arguments would require lengthy discussion of linguistics and philosophy it is simpler and probably more useful to summarize the major pitfalls to be avoided when constructing an argument these pitfalls are known as fallacies in everyday english the term fallacy is used to refer to mistaken beliefs as well as to the faulty reasoning that leads to those beliefs this is fair enough but in logic the term is generally used to refer to a form of technically incorrect argument especially if the argument appears valid or convincing so for the purposes of this discussion we define a fallacy as a logical argument which appears to be correct but which can be seen to be incorrect when examined more closely by studying fallacies we aim to avoid being misled by them the following list of fallacies is not intended to be exhaustive argumentum ad baculum appeal to force the appeal to force is committed when the arguer resorts to force or the threat of force in order to try and push the acceptance of a conclusion it is often used by politicians and can be summarized as might makes right the force threatened need not be a direct threat from the arguer for example thus there is ample proof of the truth of the bible all those who refuse to accept that truth will burn in hell argumentum ad hominem argumentum ad hominem is literally argument directed at the man the abusive variety of argumentum ad hominem occurs when instead of trying to disprove the truth of an assertion the arguer attacks the person or people making the assertion this is invalid because the truth of an assertion does not depend upon the goodness of those asserting it for example atheism is an evil philosophy it is practised by communists and murderers sometimes in a court of law doubt is cast upon the testimony of a witness by showing for example that he is a known perjurer this is a valid way of reducing the credibility of the testimony given by the witness and not argumentum ad hominem however it does not demonstrate that the witness s testimony is false to conclude otherwise is to fall victim of the argumentum ad ignorantiam see elsewhere in this list the circumstantial form of argumentum ad hominem is committed when a person argues that his opponent ought to accept the truth of an assertion because of the opponent s particular circumstances for example it is perfectly acceptable to kill animals for food how can you argue otherwise when you re quite happy to wear leather shoes this is an abusive charge of inconsistency used as an excuse for dismissing the opponent s argument this fallacy can also be used as a means of rejecting a conclusion for example of course you would argue that positive discrimination is a bad thing you re white this particular form of argumentum ad hominem when one alleges that one s adversary is rationalizing a conclusion formed from selfish interests is also known as poisoning the well argumentum ad ignorantium argumentum ad ignorantium means argument from ignorance this fallacy occurs whenever it is argued that something must be true simply because it has not been proved false or equivalently when it is argued that something must be false because it has not been proved true note that this is not the same as assuming that something is false until it has been proved true a basic scientific principle examples of course the bible is true nobody can prove otherwise of course telepathy and other psychic phenomena do not exist nobody has shown any proof that they are real note that this fallacy does not apply in a court of law where one is generally assumed innocent until proven guilty also in scientific investigation if it is known that an event would produce certain evidence of its having occurred the absence of such evidence can validly be used to infer that the event did not occur for example a flood as described in the bible would require an enormous volume of water to be present on the earth the earth does not have a tenth as much water even if we count that which is frozen into ice at the poles therefore no such flood occurred in science we can validly assume from lack of evidence that something has not occurred we cannot conclude with certainty that it has not occurred however argumentum ad misericordiam this is the appeal to pity also known as special pleading the fallacy is committed when the arguer appeals to pity for the sake of getting a conclusion accepted for example i did not murder my mother and father with an axe please don t find me guilty i m suffering enough through being an orphan argumentum ad populum this is known as appealing to the gallery or appealing to the people to commit this fallacy is to attempt to win acceptance of an assertion by appealing to a large group of people this form of fallacy is often characterized by emotive language for example pornography must be banned it is violence against women the bible must be true millions of people know that it is are you trying to tell them that they are all mistaken fools argumentum ad numeram this fallacy is closely related to the argumentum ad populum it consists of asserting that the more people who support or believe a proposition the more likely it is that that proposition is correct argumentum ad verecundiam the appeal to authority uses the admiration of the famous to try and win support for an assertion for example isaac newton was a genius and he believed in god this line of argument is not always completely bogus for example reference to an admitted authority in a particular field may be relevant to a discussion of that subject for example we can distinguish quite clearly between stephen hawking has concluded that black holes give off radiation and john searle has concluded that it is impossible to build an intelligent computer hawking is a physicist and so we can reasonably expect his opinions on black hole radiation to be informed searle is a linguist so it is questionable whether he is well qualified to speak on the subject of machine intelligence the fallacy of accident the fallacy of accident is committed when a general rule is applied to a particular case whose accidental circumstances mean that the rule is inapplicable it is the error made when one goes from the general to the specific for example christians generally dislike atheists you are a christian so you must dislike atheists this fallacy is often committed by moralists and legalists who try to decide every moral and legal question by mechanically applying general rules converse accident hasty generalization this fallacy is the reverse of the fallacy of accident it occurs when one forms a general rule by examining only a few specific cases which are not representative of all possible cases for example jim bakker was an insincere christian therefore all christians are insincere sweeping generalization dicto simpliciter a sweeping generalization occurs when a general rule is applied to a particular situation in which the features of that particular situation render the rule inapplicable a sweeping generalization is the opposite of a hasty generalization non causa pro causa post hoc ergo propter hoc these are known as false cause fallacies the fallacy of non causa pro causa occurs when one identifies something as the cause of an event but it has not actually been shown to be the cause for example i took an aspirin and prayed to god and my headache disappeared so god cured me of the headache the fallacy of post hoc ergo propter hoc occurs when something is assumed to be the cause of an event merely because it happened before the event for example the soviet union collapsed after taking up atheism therefore we must avoid atheism for the same reasons cum hoc ergo propter hoc this fallacy is similar to post hoc ergo propter hoc it asserts that because two events occur together they must be causally related and leaves no room for other factors that may be the cause s of the events petitio principii this fallacy occurs when the premises are at least as questionable as the conclusion reached circulus in demonstrando this fallacy occurs when one assumes as a premise the conclusion which one wishes to reach often the proposition will be rephrased so that the fallacy appears to be a valid argument for example homosexuals must not be allowed to hold government office hence any government official who is revealed to be a homosexual will lose his job therefore homosexuals will do anything to hide their secret and will be open to blackmail therefore homosexuals cannot be allowed to hold government office note that the argument is entirely circular the premise is the same as the conclusion an argument like the above has actually been cited as the reason for the british secret services official ban on homosexual employees another example is the classic we know that god exists because the bible tells us so and we know that the bible is true because it is the word of god complex question fallacy of interrogation this is the fallacy of presupposition one example is the classic loaded question have you stopped beating your wife the question presupposes a definite answer to another question which has not even been asked this trick is often used by lawyers in cross examination when they ask questions like where did you hide the money you stole similarly politicians often ask loaded questions such as how long will this ec interference in our affairs be allowed to continue or does the chancellor plan two more years of ruinous privatization ignoratio elenchi the fallacy of irrelevant conclusion consists of claiming that an argument supports a particular conclusion when it is actually logically nothing to do with that conclusion for example a christian may begin by saying that he will argue that the teachings of christianity are undoubtably true if he then argues at length that christianity is of great help to many people no matter how well he argues he will not have shown that christian teachings are true sadly such fallacious arguments are often successful because they arouse emotions which cause others to view the supposed conclusion in a more favourable light equivocation equivocation occurs when a key word is used with two or more different meanings in the same argument for example what could be more affordable than free software but to make sure that it remains free that users can do what they like with it we must place a license on it to make sure that will always be freely redistributable amphiboly amphiboly occurs when the premises used in an argument are ambiguous because of careless or ungrammatical phrasing accent accent is another form of fallacy through shifting meaning in this case the meaning is changed by altering which parts of a statement are emphasized for example consider we should not speak ill of our friends and we should not speak ill of our friends fallacies of composition one fallacy of composition is to conclude that a property shared by the parts of something must apply to the whole for example the bicycle is made entirely of low mass components and is therefore very lightweight the other fallacy of composition is to conclude that a property of a number of individual items is shared by a collection of those items for example a car uses less petrol and causes less pollution than a bus therefore cars are less environmentally damaging than buses fallacy of division the fallacy of division is the opposite of the fallacy of composition like its opposite it exists in two varieties the first is to assume that a property of some thing must apply to its parts for example you are studying at a rich college therefore you must be rich the other is to assume that a property of a collection of items is shared by each item for example ants can destroy a tree therefore this ant can destroy a tree the slippery slope argument this argument states that should one event occur so will other harmful events there is no proof made that the harmful events are caused by the first event for example if we legalize marijuana then we would have to legalize crack and heroin and we ll have a nation full of drug addicts on welfare therefore we cannot legalize marijuana a is based on b fallacies is a type of fallacies these fallacies occur when one attempts to argue that things are in some way similar without actually specifying in what way they are similar examples isn t history based upon faith if so then isn t the bible also a form of history islam is based on faith christianity is based on faith so isn t islam a form of christianity cats are a form of animal based on carbon chemistry dogs are a form of animal based on carbon chemistry so aren t dogs a form of cat affirmation of the consequent this fallacy is an argument of the form a implies b b is true therefore a is true to understand why it is a fallacy examine the truth table for implication given earlier denial of the antecedent this fallacy is an argument of the form a implies b a is false therefore b is false again the truth table for implication makes it clear why this is a fallacy note that this fallacy is different from non causa pro causa the latter has the form a implies b a is false therefore b is false where a does not in fact imply b at all here the problem is not that the implication is invalid rather it is that the falseness of a does not allow us to deduce anything about b converting a conditional this fallacy is an argument of the form if a then b therefore if b then a argumentum ad antiquitam this is the fallacy of asserting that something is right or good simply because it is old or because that s the way it s always been argumentum ad novitam this is the opposite of the argumentum ad antiquitam it is the fallacy of asserting that something is more correct simply because it is new or newer than something else argumentum ad crumenam the fallacy of believing that money is a criterion of correctness that those with more money are more likely to be right argumentum ad lazarum the fallacy of assuming that because someone is poor he or she is sounder or more virtuous than one who is wealthier this fallacy is the opposite of the argumentum ad crumenam argumentum ad nauseam this is the incorrect belief that an assertion is more likely to be true the more often it is heard an argumentum ad nauseum is one that employs constant repetition in asserting something bifurcation also referred to as the black and white fallacy bifurcation occurs when one presents a situation as having only two alternatives where in fact other alternatives exist or can exist plurium interrogationum many questions this fallacy occurs when a questioner demands a simple answer to a complex question non sequitur a non sequitur is an argument where the conclusion is drawn from premises which are not logically connected with it red herring this fallacy is committed when irrelevant material is introduced to the issue being discussed so that everyone s attention is diverted away from the points being made towards a different conclusion reification hypostatization reification occurs when an abstract concept is treated as a concrete thing shifting the burden of proof the burden of proof is always on the person making an assertion or proposition shifting the burden of proof a special case of argumentum ad ignorantium is the fallacy of putting the burden of proof on the person who denies or questions the assertion being made the source of the fallacy is the assumption that something is true unless proven otherwise straw man the straw man fallacy is to misrepresent someone else s position so that it can be attacked more easily then to knock down that misrepresented position then to conclude that the original position has been demolished it is a fallacy because it fails to deal with the actual arguments that have been made the extended analogy the fallacy of the extended analogy often occurs when some suggested general rule is being argued over the fallacy is to assume that mentioning two different situations in an argument about a general rule constitutes a claim that those situations are analogous to each other this fallacy is best explained using a real example from a debate about anti cryptography legislation i believe it is always wrong to oppose the law by breaking it such a position is odious it implies that you would not have supported martin luther king are you saying that cryptography legislation is as important as the struggle for black liberation how dare you tu quoque this is the famous you too fallacy it occurs when an action is argued to be acceptable because the other party has performed it for instance you re just being randomly abusive so you ve been abusive too
alt.atheism	alt atheism faq overview for new readers archive name atheism overview alt atheism archive name overview last modified april version overview welcome to alt atheism and alt atheism moderated this is the first in a series of regular postings aimed at new readers of the newsgroups many groups of a controversial nature have noticed that new readers often come up with the same questions mis statements or misconceptions and post them to the net in addition people often request information which has been posted time and time again in order to try and cut down on this the alt atheism groups have a series of five regular postings under the following titles alt atheism faq overview for new readers alt atheism faq introduction to atheism alt atheism faq frequently asked questions faq alt atheism faq constructing a logical argument alt atheism faq atheist resources this is article number please read numbers and before posting the others are entirely optional if you are new to usenet you may also find it helpful to read the newsgroup news announce newusers the articles titled a primer on how to work with the usenet community answers to frequently asked questions about usenet and hints on writing style for usenet are particularly relevant questions concerning how news works are best asked in news newusers questions if you are unable to find any of the articles listed above see the finding stuff section below credits these files could not have been written without the assistance of the many readers of alt atheism and alt atheism moderated in particular i d like to thank the following people kck cs cmu edu karl kluge perry dsinc com jim perry netoprwa ncsuvm cc ncsu edu wayne aiken chpetk gdr bath ac uk toby kelsey jkp cs hut fi jyrki kuoppala geoff arnold east sun com geoff arnold torkel sics se torkel franzen kmldorf utdallas edu george kimeldorf roe quads uchicago edu greg roelofs arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee madhaus netcom com maddi hausmann j j psuvm psu edu john a johnson dgraham bmers bnr ca douglas graham mayne open cs fsu edu william mayne ajr bigbird hri com andy rosen stoesser ira uka de achim stoesser bosullvn unix tcd ie bryan o sullivan lippard ccit arizona edu james j lippard s b rigel tamu edu s baum ydobyns phoenix princeton edu york h dobyns schroede sdsc edu wayne schroeder baldwin csservera usna navy mil j d baldwin d nibby unhh unh edu dana nibby dempsey kodak com richard c dempsey jmunch hertz elee calpoly edu john david munch pdc dcs ed ac uk paul crowley rz mips complang tuwien ac at richard zach tycchow math mit edu tim chow simon dcs warwick ac uk simon clippingdale and countless others i ve forgotten these articles are free truly free you may copy them and distribute them to anyone you wish however please send any changes or corrections to the author and please do not re post copies of the articles to alt atheism it does nobody any good to have multiple versions of the same document floating around the network finding stuff all of the faq files should be somewhere on your news system here are some suggestions on what to do if you can t find them check the newsgroup alt atheism look for subject lines starting with alt atheism faq check the newsgroup news answers for the same subject lines if you don t find anything in steps or your news system isn t set up correctly and you may wish to tell your system administrator about the problem if you have anonymous ftp access connect to rtfm mit edu go to the directory pub usenet alt atheism and you ll find the latest versions of the faq files there ftp is a a way of copying files between networked computers if you need help in using or getting started with ftp send e mail to mail server rtfm mit edu with send usenet news answers ftp list faq in the body there are other sites which also carry news answers postings the article introduction to the news answers newsgroup carries a list of these sites the article is posted regularly to news answers if you don t have ftp send mail to mail server rtfm mit edu consisting of the following lines send usenet news answers finding sources send usenet alt atheism faq send usenet alt atheism introduction send usenet alt atheism logic send usenet alt atheism resources penultimate resort send mail to mail server mantis co uk consisting of the following lines send atheism faq faq txt send atheism faq logic txt send atheism faq intro txt send atheism faq resource txt and our poor overworked modems will try and send you a copy of the files there s other stuff too interesting commands to try are help and send atheism index last resort mail mathew mantis co uk or post an article to the newsgroup asking how you can get the faq files you should only do this if you ve tried the above methods and they ve failed it s not nice to clutter the newsgroup or people s mailboxes with requests for files it s better than posting without reading the faq though for instance people whose email addresses get mangled in transit and who don t have ftp will probably need assistance obtaining the faq files mathew
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics date apr gmt from bake timmons timmbake mcl ucsb edu these bible lovers have got to chill out if we all could just relax and see atheism for what it is the funny pages could have more material atheism denies the existence of god this is logically bankrupt where is the proof of this nonexistence it s a joke so nobody can take the above sense of atheism seriously perhaps perhaps because you just made it up now put your skateboard away and read the faq learn something about atheism before you get off on these tangents
alt.atheism	re so help you god in court i don t think there is really any question about which god the courts mean the request for solemnly swearing so help you god is always made after a request to pick up the bible in your left hand and hold up your right hand in the courts of nc at least it is always an old and new testament though it is hard to imagine picking up the bible and swearing to whatever god is sometimes the least of the religious influence there is a court in greensboro nc where the judge routinely has everyone in the courtroom stand to join him in prayer at the beginning of every session i ve thought about sitting through it but i m not terribly anxious to spend days in jail
alt.atheism	re nicknames in article apr zeus calpoly edu jmunch hertz elee calpoly edu john munch wrote mathew faq can t remember his last name keith lie tally sig ryan kent finn tastic sandvick cindy popsicle toes kandolf jim face sig tims simon clip that theist clippendale umar reasonable khan rob argue with g d strom dave buckminster fuller maddi never a useful post hausmann hey what about an affectionate nickname for me you could take my wrongly spelled surname cheers kent sandvik sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes atheism denies the existence of god this is logically bankrupt where is the proof of this nonexistence it s a joke this is one of my favorite fallacious points against atheism i e the belief that you can t deny anything that you can t prove doesn t exist this is easily nailed by showing that an infinite number of beings are conceivable but not observed to exist does this mean that we would have to believe in all of them according to the above poster we must believe in objects or beings that haven t been proved not to exist so why stop at god there could be a huge number of beings identical to ronald reagan except for trivial differences say one is missing a finger one has blond hair and they all live on other planets so we can t see them the reason no one but atheists bring this up is that none of these christians have a vested interest in these unknown beings with the exception of god fine but why do these people shoot themselves in the foot and mock the idea of a god here again is a classic atheist fallacy how did they shoot themselves in the foot radical muslims the crusades the inquisition are common examples that atheists like to bring up as marks against religion how weak only fools can take that drivel seriously how about the grand daddy of all human atrocities the stalinist movement twenty eight million people killed under this leadership which proudly featured atheism there is a big difference here stalin didn t say that he stood for a particular moral position i e against murder and terrorism etc and then did the opposite like the religious movements he was at least an honest killer this is not a support of stalin but an attack on this viewpoint saying that atheism supports murder and violence just because one man was a tyrant and an atheist is just bad logic look at all the russians that helped stalin that weren t atheists don t they contradict your point besides your point assumes that his atheism was relevant to his murdering people this is just the common assumption that atheists can t value life as much as theists which you didn t support agnostics are not as funny because they are more reasonable yet they do in some sense seem funny because they believe that the existence of god is unknowable this in itself is every bit the assumption that atheism is though it s less arrogant and pompous ah and here s another point you didn t get out of the faq an atheist doesn t have to hold the positive view that god doesn t exist he she may just have the non existence of the positive belief here s the example strong atheism i believe god does not exist a positive belief weak atheism i don t believe in a god a negative belief these are not the same some one that has never thought of the idea of god in their whole life is technically an atheist but not the kind that you are calling unreasonable or let s look at it this way in sets suppose that a given person has a huge set of ideas that i will represent as capital letters and these people then either believe that these ideas exist as real objects or not so if s santa then e s no is the person not believing in santa but still having the idea of santa but notice that even e s no is itself another idea this means you have lots of cases christian a e a yes b e b no g e g yes where g god atheist strong a e a g e g no atheist weak a e i e no g at all in the set agnostic a g e g indeterminate e why are people so afraid to say undecided it must just be another feature of human nature undecided is not a sexy trendy or glamorous word it does not inspire much hate or conflict it s not blasphemous it s not political in fact it is too often taken to mean unsophisticated nietzsche once said that a man would rather will nonexistence than not will at all but the darwinist way to put this is that humanity always prefers no or yes to a maybe because indecision is not a useful survival trait evolution has drilled it in us to take positions even false ones bake timmons iii m s
alt.atheism	christian morality is in vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes in article c l ey jts news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes in vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes actually my atheism is based on ignorance ignorance of the existence of any god don t fall into the atheists don t believe because of their pride mistake how do you know it s based on ignorance couldn t that be wrong why would it be wrong to fall into the trap that you mentioned if i m wrong god is free at any time to correct my mistake that he continues not to do so while supposedly proclaiming his undying love for my eternal soul speaks volumes what are the volumes that it speaks besides the fact that he leaves your choices up to you as for the trap you are not in a position to tell me that i don t believe in god because i do not wish to unless you can know my motivations better than i do myself you should believe me when i say that i earnestly searched for god for years and never found him i definitely agree that it s rather presumptuous for either side to give some psychological reasoning for another s belief mac bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea michael a cobb and i won t raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs champaign urbana bill clinton rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu with new taxes and spending cuts we ll still have billion dollar deficits
alt.atheism	re koresh is god from mathew mathew mantis co uk the latest news seems to be that koresh will give himself up once he s finished writing a sequel to the bible in article p psilink com robert knowles p psilink com writes writing the seven seals or something along those lines he s already written the first of the seven which was around pages or so and has handed it over to an assistant for proofreading i would expect any decent messiah to have a built in spellchecker maybe koresh will come with one i heard he had asked the fbi to provide him with a word processor does anyone know if koresh has requested that it be wordperfect wp was written and is owned by mormons so the theological implications of requesting or refusing wp are profound darin wilkins scubed scubed com i will be president for food
alt.atheism	re you will all go to hell in article pts psuvm psu edu pts psuvm psu edu writes pitt vs penn state controversy deleted bringing this back to alt atheism relevance so the guy says we re going to hell that isn t sufficient cause to bitch to the system operator at worst it s bad etiquette unless you really believe that someone is using his account without his knowledge permission which is actually against the law patrick saxton pitt is a second rate school in a second rate city pts psuvm psu edu anon pts ecl psu edu ob atheism in batman we trust no it wouldn t be sufficient cause to bitch to the system operator if this was just some guy saying that atheists are going to hell the point was that recently many messages were posted from that address each of these messages was posted to a different newsgroup with the apparent intent of provoking the readers of that particular group this along with the fact that these posts were written in all caps makes these posts suspect whoever is using this account is using it irresponsibly if it is the intended user they should consider appropriate action if it is someone else which seems a possibility then this is also reason to report it we get many posts in the flavor of the one that started this thread it is only because i have seen posts on other groups by this user that i am considering action brendan
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics thanks to whoever posted this wonderful parody of people who post without reading the faq i was laughing for a good minutes were there any parts of the faq that weren t mentioned i think there might have been one or two please don t tell me this wasn t a joke i m not ready to hear that yet brendan
alt.atheism	re is morality constant was re biblical rape bill conner bil okcforum osrhe edu wrote there are a couple of things about your post and others in this thread that are a little confusing an atheist is one for whom all things can be understood as processes of nature exclusively this definition does not include all atheists see the faq however i for one do think there is no need to invoke any divine or spiritual explanations it makes a big difference to claim that all things can be understood as natural processes and to claim that our observations do not require us to postulate any divine intervention or anything spiritual for that matter humans are not omnipotent and neither is science however science has one advantage theology doesn t it is self correcting with nature as its judge it is delightful to see how scientific inquiry is revealing a self consistent simple picture of our universe science is no longer a bunch of separate branches it is one from particle physics to psychology and no aspect of our life or our universe is safe from its stern and stony eye not even our consciousness there is no need for any recourse to divnity to describe or explain anything there is no purpose or direction for any event beyond those required by physics chemistry biology etc everything is random nothing is determnined actually determinism vs indeterminism is a philosophical question and science cannot say whether the whole thing is actually somehow superdeterministic or not i think the question does not have any meaning as far as individual human beings go if their apparent free will is an illusion it does not appear to be so from their perspective bill can you say for sure whether you have a free will or not this would also have to include human intelligence of course and all its products there is nothing requiring that life evolve or that it acquire intelligence it s just a happy accident maybe who are we to tell it seems intelligence is useful when during the history of earth has one species been able to control one third of the whole biosphere this can still be a result of numerous happy accidents our genetic machinery blindly replicates and preserves even that machinery can be result of the same principle only the systems that can start replicating will survive those which don t don t make it recommended reading t o for an atheist no event can be preferred to another or be said to have more or less value than another in any naturalistic sense and no thought about an event can have value from whose perspective i value events and things subjectively from my perspective nature does not have values because it does not have a perspective values arise from awareness if i have a subjective perspective it is easy to assume that other people also do and if i think about what it would it be like in their position i will eventually discover the golden rule morality is not necessarily a gift from heavens in fact it may be a product of evolution perhaps we are aware of ourselves because a sense of identity is helpful allows us to play the roles of others and make us respect others who seem to have identity too bill have you ever read aristotle try his ethica nikomakhea sp for starters how then can an atheist judge value what is the basis for criticizing the values ennumerated in the bible or the purposes imputed to god on what grounds can the the behavior of the reliogious be condemned it seems that in judging the values that motivate others to action you have to have some standard against which conduct is measured but what in nature can serve that purpose what law of nature can you invoke to establish your values c s lewis tells us that this argument was the main reason why he abandoned his atheism and became christian the argument is severely flawed some values such as the golden rule can have a rational basis some others like the basic idea of wanting to live has probably its roots in the way our brains are wired lewis ignored the very real possiblity that natural selection could also favour altruistic behaviour and morality as well indeed as humans evolved better and better in building and using tools they also became better at killing each other it is a logical necessity that evolution could only favour those who knew how to use tools but not against one s own people the bible reveals quite nicely that the morality of the early jews was not beyond this a simple set of rules to hold the people together under one god their god did not care much about people of other nations at the time of the nt things were quite different the jews were under rule of an empire and could no longer simply ignore the gentiles a new situation required a new morality and along with it a new religion was born a mutation in a meme pool since every event is entirely and exclusively a physical event what difference could it possibly make what anyone does religious or otherwise there can be no meaning or gradation of value the only way an atheist can object to any behaviour is to admit that the objection is entirely subjective and that he she just doesn t like it that s it any value judgement must be prefaced by the disclaimer that it is nothing more than a matter of personal opinion and carries no weight in any absolute sense it looks like you haven t bothered to read philosophy whenever there is an observer there is a subjective point of view which may value its existence and happiness even if that were just a result of some physical event and other s happiness too if the observer comes to think about it in an absolutely objective sense that is without any observers or subjects moral judgments lose their meaning it is not possible for a value to simply exist without a point of view this includes gods too their values are only their personal judgments not absolute truths since such truths do not exist the fact that most people do not deliberately want to hurt others is a manifestation of the way we have fought for our existence by becoming social beings who can think and value others existence morality is not property of humans alone chimps dolphins and many other species show great care for each other dolphins have sometimes saved humans from drowning a good deed indeed that you don t like what god told people to do says nothing about god or god s commands it says only that there was an electrical event in your nervous system that created an emotional state that your mind coupled with a pre existing thought set to form that reaction that your objections seem well founded is due to the way you ve been conditioned there is no truth content the whole of your intellectual landscape is an illusion a virtual reality the last statement does not logically follow in fact there is every reason to believe our thoughts can model reality very well and our senses can convey reliable information solipsism is still a logical possibility but not a very likely one you are continuously mixing two different views the subjective point of view which we all share and an objective point of view which does not exist any observer or thinker any personal being has its own point of view it does not matter whether this point of view is a result of some physical events or not it does not cease to be subjective from a non observers non point of view values do not exist neither does pain or pleasure or beauty or love such things are inherently subjective once again if god wants wives to submit to their husbands or even to make a leap of faith into the unknown or wants to punish us if we don t i disagree with his morals i do not think my morals come from any supreme being to remove my morals means the same than to make me a zombie a machine without a single thought if god gave us morality to judge but i disagree with him it is not my fault he is free to replace my morals i cannot see what is the point of giving someone a moral system which disagrees with one s own and then to get mad at this god must be schizophrenic all of this being so you have excluded yourself from any discussion of values right wrong goood evil etc and cannot participate your opinion about the bible can have no weight whatsoever neither can the opinion of any god for that matter i cannot understand why a subjective opinion of a thing made of matter is in any way less credible than an opinion of a thing made of something else bill take note absolute values must be independent of any being including gods if god has a subjective viewpoint it is his own point of view and his morals are his own petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics is the truth pihatie c finou oulu fi physics is the rule of sf oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu fi chemistry is the game
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes in article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes i am refuting nothing but simply telling you what i see which is childish propaganda and nothing to be refuted bcci was not an islamic bank so this post has nothing to do with islamic banks i am tiring of this infantile garbage so i simply evaluated it as such could you maybe flesh it out just a bit or did i miss the full grandeur of it s content by virtue of my blinding atheism you may be having difficulty seeing the light because you have your head up your ass i suggest making sure this is not the case before posting again it s time for your lesson in debate gregg yeah right begin included text from vice news tek com uunet psinntp wrldlnk usenet sun apr pdt i noticed a post on this topic in soc religion islam and since the topic of the bcci being not being an islamic bank has come up i have left in the one mention of the bcci bank called how bcci adapted the koran rules of banking from this bibliography bennett neil how bcci adapted the koran rules of banking the times august so let s see if some guy writes a piece with a title that implies something is the case then it must be so is that it this is how you support a position if you intend to have anyone respect it gregg any questions and i even managed to include the above reference with my head firmly engaged in my ass what s your excuse this supports nothing i have no reason to believe that this is piece is anything other than another anti islamic slander job i have no respect for titles only for real content i can look up this article if i want true but i can tell you bcci was not an islamic bank seeing as i m spending my time responding to propaganda in responding to this little sub thread i really don t feel a deep need to do more than make statements to the effect that the propaganda is false if someone wants to discuss the issue more seriously then i d be glad to have a real discussion providing references etc gregg
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes rule don t mix apples with oranges how can you say that the extermination by the mongols was worse than stalin khan conquered people unsympathetic to his cause that was atrocious but stalin killed millions of his own people who loved and worshipped him and his atheist state how can anyone be worse than that you re right and david koresh claimed to be a christian
alt.atheism	re some thoughts bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes niether was he a lunatic would more than an entire nation be drawn to someone who was crazy find an encyclopedia volume h now look up hitler adolf he had many more people than just germans enamoured with him p moorcockpratchettdenislearydelasoulu iainmbanksneworderheathersbatmanpjorourke clive p a u l m o l o n e y come let us retract the foreskin of misconception james trinity college dublin and apply the wire brush of enlightenment geoffm brownbladerunnersugarcubeselectronicblaylockpowersspikeleekatebushhamcornpizza
alt.atheism	re the pope is jewish west next cville wam umd edu stilgar writes the pope is jewish i guess they re right and i always thought that the thing on his head was just a fancy hat not a jewish headpiece i don t remember the name it s all so clear now clear as mud as to what that headpiece is by chort crl nmsu edu source ap newswire the vatican home of genetic misfits michael a gillow noted geneticist has revealed some unusual data after working undercover in the vatican for the past years the popehat tm is actually an advanced bone spur reveals gillow in his groundshaking report gillow who had secretly studied the innermost workings of the vatican since returning from vietnam in a wheel chair first approached the scientific community with his theory in the late s the whole hat thing that was just a cover up the vatican didn t want the catholic community tm to realize their leader was hefting nearly kilograms of extraneous bone tissue on the top of his skull notes gillow in his report there are whole laboratories in the vatican that experiment with tissue transplants and bone marrow experiments what started as a genetic fluke in the mid s is now scientifically engineered and bred for the whole bone transplant idea started in the mid sixties inspired by doctor timothy leary transplanting deer bone cells into small white rats gillow is quick to point out the assassination attempt on pope john paul ii and the disappearance of dr leary from the public eye when it becomes time to replace the pope says gillow the old pope and the replacement pope are locked in a padded chamber they butt heads much like male yaks fighting for dominance of the herd the victor emerges and has earned the privilege of inseminating the choir boys p moorcockpratchettdenislearydelasoulu iainmbanksneworderheathersbatmanpjorourke clive p a u l m o l o n e y come let us retract the foreskin of misconception james trinity college dublin and apply the wire brush of enlightenment geoffm brownbladerunnersugarcubeselectronicblaylockpowersspikeleekatebushhamcornpizza
alt.atheism	re free moral agency and jeff clark in article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy r healy writes deletion you also said why did millions suffer for what adam and ee did seems a pretty sick way of going about creating a universe i m gonna respond by giving a small theology lesson forgive me i used to be a theology major first of all i believe that this planet is involved in a cosmic struggle the great controversy betweed christ and satan i borrowed a book title god has to consider the interests of the entire universe when making decisions deletion an universe it has created by the way can you tell me why it is less tyrannic to let one of one s own creatures do what it likes to others by your definitions your god has created satan with full knowledge what would happen including every choice of satan can you explain us what free will is and how it goes along with omniscience didn t your god know everything that would happen even before it created the world why is it concerned about being a tyrant when noone would care if everything was fine for them that the whole idea comes from the possibility to abuse power something your god introduced according to your description by the way are you sure that you have read the faq especially the part about preaching benedikt
alt.atheism	re the pope is jewish in article apr wam umd edu west next cville wam umd edu stilgar writes last night while watching the a m rebroadcast of jerry springer a talk show i heard this jewel of a thought from a year old racist the focus of this show was on these kids and their hatred for the jewish religion and why some stuff deleted interesting and scary no they went on to say how the jews had killed their god and how in the end of time that all the races would go to their homelands of course they would remain in america which is new jeruselem as it says in gen what another kid said but the rest of the races would go home and then the great battle or plague or whatever revel says would happen and the jews would be killed the most interesting thing about this was that my roomate is catholic and had the kjv of the bible on his desk he immediatly opened it up and began to search for the quoted passages gen rev and john to look for himself and couldn t find what they said they saw i don t know i saw this show a while back and when i heard these kids quote the bible to justify their racist claims i looked up that quote about jesus hating jews since jesus himself was a jew my curiousity had been piqued by such a claim the jist of the passage and i am sorry but i can t recall which passage it was exactly was that jesus was condemning the pharisees for being corrupt of course the pharisees were jewish too but it wasn t jews as a whole that jesus was condemning just the powers that be nancy o connor psychology undergrad the opinions i express simon fraser university are my own burnaby b c canada
alt.atheism	re a silly question on x tianity werdna cco caltech edu andrew tong writes mccullou snake cs wisc edu mark mccullough writes question this attitude god character seems awfully egotistical and proud but christianity tells people to be humble what s the deal well god pretty much has a right to be egotistical and proud i mean he created you doesn t he have the right to be proud of such a job of course people don t have much of a right to be proud what have they accomplished that can match god s accomplishments anyways how do their abilities compare with those of god s we re an imbecile worm of the earth to quote pascal grumblegrumble if you were god and you created a universe wouldn t you be just a little irked if some self organizing cell globules on a tiny planet started thinking they were as great and awesome as you unfortunately the logic falls apart quick all perfect insulted or threatened by the actions of a lesser creature actually by offspring how why shuold any all powerful all perfect feel either proud or offended anything capable of being aware of the relationship of every aspect of every particle in the universe during every moment of time simultaneously should be able to understand the cause of every action of every cell globule on each tniy planet well actually now that i think of it it seems kinda odd that god would care at all about the earth ok so it was a bad example but the amazing fact is that he does care apparently and that he was willing to make some grand sacrifices to ensure our happiness all powerful owner of everything in the universe makes great sacrifices makes a great headline but it doesn t make any sense what did he sacrifice where did it go that he couldn t get it back if he gave something up who d he give it up to chris you guys have fun i m agoin to key west
alt.atheism	re i don t beleive in you either in article apr antioc antioch edu smauldin antioc antioch edu writes i stopped believing in you as well long before the invention of technology god ahhh go back to alt autotheism where you belong brian
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by theism evidence in article qid fct horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes i don t see anything special about theism in general that makes it a particular hazard more so than say stupidity anarchy or patriotism of course it depends on the religion but i see nothing about believing in gods that in and of itself entails or even promotes xenophobia genocide etc if the emphasis is on the in general then of course you re correct since you haven t really said anything if we restrict our observations to practiced religions there are lots of examples of god mandated genocide just ask the canaanites the point is that if you believe in a god and if you believe he has ordered you to eliminate an entire race you will likely make the attempt after all if it was ok in the past it could surely be ok in the present bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re free moral agency and jeff clark in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes this is the reason i like the controversy of post modernism the issues of polarities evil and good are just artificial constructs and they fall apart during a closer inspection the more i look into the notion of a constant struggle between the evil and good forces the more it sounds like a metaphor that people just assume without closer inspection more info please i m not well exposed to these ideas bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re political atheists in article apr news wesleyan edu ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu scott d sauyet writes in qabe innaff gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu writes chimpanzees fight wars over land but chimps are almost human keith could it be this is the last message from mr schneider and it s more than three days old are these his final words and how many here would find that appropriate or is it just that finals got in the way no the christians were leary of having an atheist spokesman seems so clandestine and all that so they had him removed of course keith is busy explaining to his fellow captives how he isn t really being persecuted since after all they are feeding him and any resistance on his part would only be viewed as trouble making i understand he did make a bit of a fuss when they tatooed in god we trust on his forehead though bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re new member in article c hiew s portal hq videocart com dfuller portal hq videocart com dave fuller writes hello i just started reading this group today and i think i am going to be a large participant in its daily postings i liked the section of the faq about constructing logical arguments well done i am an atheist but i do not try to turn other people into atheists i only try to figure why people believe the way they do i don t much care if they have a different view than i do when it comes down to it i could be wrong i am willing to admit the possibility something religious followers dont seem to have the capability to do welcome aboard i notice alot of posts from bobby why does anybody ever respond to his posts he always falls back on the same argument i think you just answered your own question there if the religion is followed it will cause no bad he is right just because an event was explained by a human to have been done in the name of religion does not mean that it actually followed the religion he will always point to the ideal and say that it wasn t followed so it can t be the reason for the event there really is no way to argue with him so why bother sure you may get upset because his answer is blind and not supported factually but he will win every time with his little argument i don t think there will be any postings from me in direct response to one of his most responses were against his postings that spouted the fact that all atheists are fools evil for not seeing how peachy islam is i would leave the pro con arguments of islam to fred rice who is more level headed and seems to know more on the subject anyway happy to be aboard how did you know i was going to welcome you abord dave fuller dfuller portal hq videocart com brian
alt.atheism	re free moral agency in article house helios house helios usq edu au ron house writes marshall csugrad cs vt edu kevin marshall writes healta saturn wwc edu tammy r healy writes you might think oh yeah then why didn t god destroy it in the bud before it got to the point it is now with millions through the ages suffering along in life the only answer i know is that satan made the claim that his way was better than god s god is allowing satan the chance to prove that his way is better than god s we all know what that has brought come on god is allowing the wishes of one individual to supercede the well being of billions i seriously doubt it having read the bible twice i never got the impression that god and satan were working in some sort of cooperative arrangement read the book of job oh that was just a bet brian
alt.atheism	re some thoughts i m sold where do i sign up brian the next book charles manson lord lunatic or liar
alt.atheism	re some thoughts bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes some reasons why he wouldn t be a liar are as follows who would die for a lie wouldn t people be able to tell if he was a liar people gathered around him and kept doing it many gathered from hearing or seeing someone who was or had been healed call me a fool but i believe he did heal people anyone who dies for a cause runs the risk of dying for a lie as for people being able to tell if he was a liar well we ve had grifters and charlatans since the beginning of civilization if david copperfield had been the messiah i bet he could have found plenty of believers jesus was hardly the first to claim to be a faith healer and he wasn t the first to be witnessed what sets him apart niether was he a lunatic would more than an entire nation be drawn to someone who was crazy very doubtful in fact rediculous for example anyone who is drawn to david koresh is obviously a fool logical people see this right away rubbish nations have followed crazies liars psychopaths and megalomaniacs throughout history hitler tojo mussolini khomeini qadaffi stalin papa doc and nixon come to mind all from this century koresh is a non issue therefore since he wasn t a liar or a lunatic he must have been the real thing take a discrete mathematics or formal logic course there are flaws in your logic everywhere and as i m sure others will tell you read the faq some other things to note he fulfilled loads of prophecies in the psalms isaiah and elsewhere in hrs alone this in his betrayal and crucifixion i don t have my bible with me at this moment next time i write i will use it of course you have to believe the bible first just because something is written in the bible does not mean it is true and the age of that tome plus the lack of external supporting evidence makes it less credible so if you do quote from the bible in the future try to back up that quote with supporting evidence otherwise you will get flamed mercilessly i don t think most people understand what a christian is it is certainly not what i see a lot in churches rather i think it should be a way of life and a total sacrafice of everything for god s sake he loved us enough to die and save us so we should do the same hey we can t do it god himself inspires us to turn our lives over to him that s tuff and most people don t want to do it to be a real christian would be something for the strong to persevere at but just like weight lifting or guitar playing drums whatever it takes time we don t rush it in one day christianity is your whole life it is not going to church once a week or helping poor people once in a while we box everything into time units such as work at this time sports tv social life god is above these boxes and should be carried with us into all these boxes that we have created for ourselves just like weight lifting or guitar playing eh i don t know how you define the world total but i would imagine a total sacrafice sp of everything for god s sake would involve more than a time commitment you are correct about our tendency to box everything into time units would you explain how one should involove god in sports and hehehe television kevin marshall computer science department virginia tech marshall csugrad cs vt edu blacksburg virginia
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by atheism in kmr po cwru edu kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes wait you just said that humans are rarely reasonable doesn t that contradict atheism where everything is explained through logic and reason this is the contradiction in atheism that proves it false bobby mozumder proving the existence of allah does anybody have bobby s post in which he said something like i don t know why there are more men than women in islamic countries maybe it s atheists killing the female children it s my personal favorite sami aario can you see or measure an atom yet you can explode a cc tut fi one sunlight is comprised of many atoms your stupid minds stupid stupid eros in plan from outer space disclaimer i don t agree with eros
alt.atheism	re some thoughts did you read the faqs if no read the faqs if yes you wouldn t have posted such drivel the lord liar or lunatic argument is a false trilemma even if you disprove liar and lunatic which you haven t you have not eliminated the other possibilities such as mistaken misdirected or misunderstood you have arbitrarily set up three and only three possibilities without considering others read a good book on rhetoric and critical thinking if you think the lord liar or lunatic discussion is an example of a good argument you are in need of learning read the faqs again especially constructing a logical argument ignore these instructions at your peril disobeying them leaves you open for righteous flaming maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com centigram communications corp san jose california kids please don t try this at home remember i post professionally
alt.atheism	re slavery was re why is sex only allowed in marriage oh this all sounds so nice everyone helping each other and always smiling and fluffy bunnies everywhere wake up people are just not like that it seems evident from history that no society has succeeded when it had to rely upon the goodwill and unselfishness of the people isn t it obvious from places like iran that even if there are only a few greedy people in society then they are going to be attracted to positions of power sounds like a recipe for disaster looking at historical evidence such perfect utopian islamic states didn t survive i agree people are people and even if you might start an islamic revolution and create this perfect state it takes some time and the internal corruption will destroy the ground rules again cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re slavery was re why is sex only allowed in marriage in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice wrote anyhow on the basis of the apparent success of islamic banks it seems to me that the statement that a zero interest economy cannot survive in today s world may be a bit premature i m sure zero intested economical systems survive on a small scale co ops is not an islamic invention and we have co operatives working all around the world however such systems don t stand the corruption of a large scale operation actually nothing could handle human greed imho not even allah cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re new member in article c hiew s portal hq videocart com dfuller portal hq videocart com dave fuller wrote he is right just because an event was explained by a human to have been done in the name of religion does not mean that it actually followed the religion he will always point to the ideal and say that it wasn t followed so it can t be the reason for the event there really is no way to argue with him so why bother sure you may get upset because his answer is blind and not supported factually but he will win every time with his little argument i don t think there will be any postings from me in direct response to one of his hey glad to have some serious and constructive contributors in this newsgroup i agree on the statement above you might argue with bobby for eons and he still does not get it so the best thing is to spare your mental resources to discuss more interesting issues cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by atheism in article qjfnv ogt horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer wrote does the term hero worship mean anything to you yes worshipping jesus as the super saver is indeed hero worshipping of the grand scale worshipping lenin that will make life pleasant for the working people is eh somehow similar or what i understand that gods are defined to be supernatural not merely superhuman the notion of lenin was on the borderline of supernatural insights into how to change the world he wasn t a communist god but he was the man who gave presents to kids during christmas actually i agree things are always relative and you can t have a direct mapping between a movement and a cause however the notion that communist russia was somewhat the typical atheist country is only something that robertson tilton et rest would believe in those atheists were not true unbelievers huh don t know what they were but they were fanatics indeed cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re some thoughts in article bissda saturn wwc edu bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell wrote first i want to start right out and say that i m a christian it makes sense to be one have any of you read tony campollo s book liar lunatic or the real thing i might be a little off on the title but he writes the book anyway he was part of an effort to destroy christianity in the process he became a christian himself seems he didn t understand anything about realities liar lunatic or the real thing is a very narrow view of the possibilities of jesus message sigh it seems religion makes your mind brain filter out anything that does not fit into your personal scheme so anyone that thinks the possibilities with jesus is bound to the classical lewis notion of liar lunatic or saint is indeed bound to become a christian cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by atheism in article qjf o t horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article qimbe sp fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in article qif g fp horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article qialf p m fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes i forget the origin of the quote but i gotta use words when i talk to you an atheist is one who lacks belief in gods yes if so then it s entirely plausible that an atheist could dig lenin or lennon to such an extent that it might be considered worship and still be an atheist anything else seems to be newspeak ask yourself the following question would you regard an ardent nazi as a republican simply because germany no longer had a kaiser no because that s based on false dichotomy there are more options than you present me and that of course is the point you can t simply divide the world into atheists and non atheists on the basis of god belief if all you care about is belief in a supernatural deity and have nothing to say about behaviour then belief in a supernatural being is your criterion but once you start talking about behaviour then someone s suscept ibility to be led by bad people into doing bad things is what you are i assume worried about and in that area what you care about is whether someone is sceptical critical and autonomous on the one hand or gullible excitable and easily led on the other i would say that a tendency to worship tyrants and ideologies indicates that a person is easily led whether they have a worship or belief in a supernatural hero rather than an earthly one seems to me to be beside the point jon
alt.atheism	re some thoughts in article edm apr gocart twisto compaq com edm twisto compaq com ed mccreary writes on thu apr gmt bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell said dlb first i want to start right out and say that i m a christian it dlb makes sense to be one have any of you read tony campollo s book liar dlb lunatic or the real thing i might be a little off on the title but he dlb writes the book anyway he was part of an effort to destroy christianity dlb in the process he became a christian himself here we go again just the friendly folks at christian central come to save you
alt.atheism	re islamic genocide in article qjipo pen horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article qinmd sp fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes at any rate even if your interpretation is correct this does not imply that the killings are religously motivated which was the original poster s seeming claim tricky tricky i m replying to your blanket claim that they are not religiously motivated they aren t irish catholics in the south do not kill irish protestants in the south yet have precisely the same history behind them those who think the killings are religously motivated ignore the rather obvious matter of british occupation partition and misguided patriotism on both sides false dichotomy you claimed the killing were not religiously motivated and i m saying that s wrong i m not saying that each and every killing is religiously motivate as i spelled out in detail the problems fault along the religious divide because at the historical roots of this thing we have a catholic country partitioned and populated by a protestant one the grotesque killing of soldiers and civilians is supposedly motivated by patriotism civil rights issues and revenge it s only difficult to understand insofaras insanity is hard to understand religion need not be invoked to explain it does anyone else see the contradiction in this paragraph but to claim that the killings in n i are not religously motivated is grotesque all that means is that the church and believers are doing what they always do with history they can t face they rewrite it you re attacking a different claim my claim is that when an ira terrorist plants a bomb in warrington s he does not have as a motive the greater glory of god sorry frank but what i put in quotes is your own words from your posting qi b ec horus ap mchp sni de don t tell us now that it s a different claim if you can no longer stand behind your original claim just say so jon
alt.atheism	re i don t beleive in you either in article apr antioc antioch edu smauldin antioc antioch edu writes i stopped believing in you as well long before the invention of technology god don t listen to this guy he s just a crank at first this business about being the one true god was tolerated by the rest of us but now it has gotten completely out of hand besides it really isn t so bad when people stop believing in you it s much more relaxing when mortals aren t always begging you for favors zeus
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by atheism in apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu s n mozumder writes in article kmr po cwru edu kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes if i state that i know that there is a green marble in a closed box which i have never seen nor have any evidence for its existance i would be guilty of deceit even if there is in fact a green marble inside the question of whether or not there is a green marble inside is irrelevent you go ahead and play with your marbles i love it i love it i love it wish i could fit all that into a sig file if someone is keeping a list of bobby quotes be sure to include this one stating an unproven opinion as a fact is deceit and knowingly being decietful is a falsehood and a lie so why do you think its an unproven opinion if i said something as fact but you think its opinion because you do not accept it then who s right the flat earthers state that the earth is flat is a fact i don t accept this i think it s an unproven opinion and i think the round earthers are right because they have better evidence than the flat earthers do although i can t prove that a god doesn t exist the arguments used to support a god s existence are weak and often self contradictory and i m not going to believe in a god unless someone comes over to me and gives me a reason to believe in a god that i absolutely can t ignore a while ago i read an interesting book by a fellow called von daenicken in which he proved some of the wildest things and on the last page he wrote something like can you prove it isn t so i certainly can t but i m not going to believe him because he based his proof on some really questionable stuff such as old myths he called it circumstancial evidence so far atheism hasn t made me kill anyone and i m regarded as quite an agreeable fellow really sami aario can you see or measure an atom yet you can explode a cc tut fi one sunlight is comprised of many atoms your stupid minds stupid stupid eros in plan from outer space disclaimer i don t agree with eros
alt.atheism	islamic authority sic over women who kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan what kmr po cwru edu with rush leland stanford edu what apr leland stanford edu other readers i just joined but is this guy for real i m simply amazed kr sadly yes don t loose any sleep over old zlumber just kr have some fun with him but he is basically harmless kr at least if you don t work in ny city i don t find it hard to believe that ole zlumber really believes the hate and ignorant prattle he writes the frightening thought is there are people even worse than he to say that feminism equals superiority over men is laughable as long as he doesn t then proceed to pick up a rifle and start to shoot women as a preemptive strike aka the canada slaughter that occured a few years ago but then men killing women is nothing new islamic fundamentalists just have a better excuse qu ran from the vancouver sun thursday october by john davidson canadian press montreal perhaps it s the letter to the five year old daughter that shocks the most i hope one day you will be old enough to understand what happened to your parents wrote patrick prevost i loved your mother with a passion that went as far as hatred police found the piece of paper near prevost s body in his apartment in northeast montreal they say the year old mechanic committed suicide after killing his wife jocelyne parent the couple had been separated for a month and the woman had gone to his apartment to talk about getting some more money for food a violent quarrel broke out and prevost attacked his wife with a kitchen knife cutting her throat police said she was only the latest of women slain by a husband or lover in quebec in the last five weeks five children have also been slain as a result of the same domestic battles last year in quebec alone women were slain by their husbands that was more than one third of such cases across canada according to statistics from the canadian centre for justice rest of article ommited then to say that women are somehow better or should be the one to stay home and raise a child is also laughable women have traditionally done hard labor to support a family often more than men in many cultures throughout history seems to me it takes at least two adults to raise a child and that both should stay home to do so maximus wb
alt.atheism	re feminism and islam again in article apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu s n mozumder writes in article apr eagle wesleyan edu kmagnacca eagle wesleyan edu writes there s a way around that via the hadith which state that silence is taken to mean yes and that women may not speak before a judge who must conduct the marriage actaully that s a false hadith because it contradicts verses in the quran that says women may testify speak before a judge hadiths are declared false when they contradict the quran hadiths weren t written during the revelation or during the life of the prophet and so may contain errors so the only way you can tell a false hadith from a true one is if it contradicts the quran what if it relates to something that isn t explicitly spelled out in the quran also the quran wasn t written down during the life of muhammed either it wasn t long after but years or so is still long enough to shift a few verses around karl lastly i come to china in the hope all you touch and all you see of fulfilling a lifelong ambition is all your life will ever be dropping acid on the great wall duke pink floyd a lie is still a lie even if billion people believe it
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article apr abo fi mandtbacka finabo abo fi mats andtbacka writes in qie fkt horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp writes in article ursa bear com halat pooh bears jim halat writes i m one of those people who does not know what the word objective means when put next to the word morality i assume its an idiom and cannot be defined by its separate terms give it a try objective morality is morality built from objective values and these objective values are please be specific and more importantly motivate i ll take a wild guess and say freedom is objectively valuable i base this on the assumption that if everyone in the world were deprived utterly of their freedom so that their every act was contrary to their volition almost all would want to complain therefore i take it that to assert or believe that freedom is not very valuable when almost everyone can see that it is is every bit as absurd as to assert it is not raining on a rainy day i take this to be a candidate for an objective value and it it is a necessary condition for objective morality that objective values such as this exist frank o dwyer i m not hatching that odwyer sse ie from hens by evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie re an anecdote about islam in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes in article c c cn gb ra nrl navy mil khan itd itd nrl navy mil umar khan writes i just borrowed a book from the library on khomeini s fatwa etc i found this useful passage regarding the legitimacy of the fatwa it was also common knowledge as prescribed by islamic law that the sentence was only applicable where the jurisdiction of islamic law applies moreover the sentence has to be passed by an islamic court and executed by the state machinery through the due process of the law even in islamic countries let alone in non muslim lands individuals cannot take the law into their own hands the sentence when passed must be carried out by the state through the usual machinery and not by individuals indeed it becomes a criminal act to take the law into one s own hands and punish the offender unless it is in the process of self defence moreover the offender must be brought to the notice of the court and it is the court who shoud decide how to deal with him this law applies equally to muslim as well as non muslim territories i agree fully with the above statement and is precisely what i meant by my previous statements about islam not being anarchist and the law not being enforcible despite the law being applicable hence on such clarification from the ulama islamic scholars muslims in britain before and after imam khomeini s fatwa made it very clear that since islamic law is not applicable to britain the hadd compulsory punishment cannot be applied here i disagree with this conclusion about the applicability of the islamic law to all muslims wherever they may be the above conclusion does not strictly follow from the foregoing but only the conclusion that the fatwa cannot be enforced according to islamic law however i do agree that the punishment cannot be applied to rushdie even were it well founded wow from the above it looks like that from an islamic viewpoint khomeini s fatwa constitutes a criminal act perhaps i could even go out on a limb and call khomeini a criminal on this basis certainly putting a price on the head of rushdie in britain is a criminal act according to islamic law anyhow i think it is understood by knowledgeable muslims that khomeini s fatwa is islamically illegitimate at least on the basis expounded above others such as myself and others who have posted here particularly umar khan and gregg jaeger i think go further and say that even the punishment constituted in the fatwa is against islamic law according to our understanding yes gregg
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice wrote it is my understanding that it is generally agreed upon by the ulema islamic scholars that islamic law applies only in an islamic country of which the uk is not furthermore to take the law into one s own hands is a criminal act as these are matters for the state not for individuals nevertheless khomeini offered a cash prize for people to take the law into their own hands something which to my understanding is against islamic law yes this is also my understanding of the majority of islamic laws however i believe there are also certain legal rulings which in all five schools of law sunni and jaffari can be levelled against muslim or non muslims both within and outside dar al islam i do not know if apostasy when accompanied by active persistent and open hostility to islam falls into this category of the law i do know that historically apostasy has very rarely been punished at all let alone by the death penalty my understanding is that khomeini s ruling was not based on the law of apostasy alone it was well known that rushdie was an apostate long before he wrote the offending novel and certainly there is no precedent in the qur an hadith or in islamic history for indiscriminantly levelling death penalties for apostasy i believe the charge levelled against rushdie was that of fasad this ruling applies both within and outside the domain of an islamic state and it can be carried out by individuals the reward was not offered by khomeini but by individuals within iran stuff deleted also i think you are muddying the issue as you seem to assume that khomeini s fatwa was issued due to the distribution of the book my understanding is that khomeini s fatwa was issued in response to the writing and publishing of the book if my view is correct then your viewpoint that rushdie was sentenced for a crime in progress is incorrect i would concur that the thrust of the fatwa from what i remember was levelled at the author and all those who assisted in the publication of the book however the charge of fasad can encompass a number of lesser charges i remember that when diplomatic relations broke off between britain and iran over the fatwa iran stressed that the condemnation of the author and the removal of the book from circulation were two preliminary conditions for resolving the crisis but you are correct to point out that banning the book was not the main thrust behind the fatwa islamic charges such as fasad are levelled at people not books the rushdie situation was followed in iran for several months before the issuance of the fatwa rushdie went on a media blitz presenting himself as a lone knight guarding the sacred values of secular democracy and mocking the foolish concerns of people crazy enough to actually hold their religious beliefs as sacred fanning the flames and milking the controversy to boost his image and push the book he was everywhere in the media then muslim demonstrators in several countries were killed while protesting against the book rushdie appeared momentarily concerned then climbed back on his media horse to once again attack the muslims and defend his sacred rights it was at this point that the fatwa on fasad was issued the fatwa was levelled at the person of rushdie any actions of rushdie that feed the situation contribute to the legitimization of the ruling the book remains in circulation not by some independant will of its own but by the will of the author and the publishers the fatwa against the person of rushdie encompasses his actions as well the crime was certainly a crime in progress at many levels and was being played out and played up in the the full view of the media p s i m not sure about this but i think the charge of shatim also applies to rushdie and may be encompassed under the umbrella of the fasad ruling
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law what about the twelve imams who he considered incapable of error or sin khomeini supports this view of the twelve imans this is heresy for the very reasons i gave above i would be happy to discuss the issue of the imams with you although my preference would be to move the discussion to another newsgroup i feel a philosophy or religion group would be more appropriate the topic is deeply embedded in the world view of islam and the esoteric teachings of the prophet s a heresy does not enter into it at all except for those who see islam only as an exoteric religion that is only nominally if at all concerned with the metaphysical substance of man s being and nature a good introductory book in fact one of the best introductory books to islam in general is murtaza mutahhari s fundamental s of islamic thought god man and the universe mizan press translated by r campbell truly a beautiful book a follow up book if you can find a decent translation is wilaya the station of the master by the same author i think it also goes under the title of master and mastership it s a very small book really just a transcription of a lecture by the author the introduction to the beautiful psalms of islam translated by william c chittick available through muhammadi trust of great britain is also an excellent introduction to the subject we have these books in our university library i imagine any well stocked university library will have them from your posts you seem fairly well versed in sunni thought you should seek to know shi ite thought through knowledgeable shi ite authors as well at least that much respect is due before the charge of heresy is levelled as salaam a laikum
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by atheism in article qif g fp horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article qialf p m fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in article qi egl horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes stuff deleted to the newsgroup at large how about this for a deal recognise that what happened in former communist russia has as much bearing on the validity of atheism as has the doings of sundry theists on the validity of their theism that s zip nada none the fallacy is known as ad hominem and it s an old one it should be in the holy faq in the book of constructing a logical argument apart from not making a lot of sense this is wrong there is no atheist creed that taught any communist what to do in the name of atheism there clearly are theistic creeds and instructions on how to act for theists they all madly conflict with one another but that s another issue lack of instructions on how to act might also be evil that s like saying that since mathematics includes no instructions on how to act it is evil atheism is not a moral system so why should it speak of instructions on how to act atheism is simply lack of belief in god plenty of theists think so so one could argue the case for atheism causes whatever i didn t like about the former ussr with as much validity as theism causes genocide that is to say no validity at all i think the argument that a particular theist system causes genocide can be made more convincingly than an argument that atheism causes genocide this is because theist systems contain instructions on how to act and one or more of these can be shown to cause genocide however since the atheist set of instructions is the null set how can you show that atheism causes genocide david choweller davec silicon csci csusb edu there are scores of thousands of human insects who are ready at a moment s notice to reveal the will of god on every possible subject george bernard shaw there are scores of thousands of human insects who are ready at a moment s notice to reveal the will of god on every possible subject george bernard shaw
alt.atheism	re the nonexistance of atheists in article bskendigc jcwx jzn netcom com bskendig netcom com brian kendig writes s c a quotes deleted it really looks like these people have no idea at all of what it means to be atheist there are more bobby mozumder clones in the world than i thought well that explains some things i posted on soc religion islam with an attached quote by bobby to the effect that all atheists are lying evil scum and asked if it was a commonly held idea among muslims i got no response asking about the unknown i guess karl lastly i come to china in the hope all you touch and all you see of fulfilling a lifelong ambition is all your life will ever be dropping acid on the great wall duke pink floyd a lie is still a lie even if billion people believe it
alt.atheism	re some thoughts in article bissda saturn wwc edu bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes it appears that walla walla college will fill the same role in alt atheist that allegheny college fills in alt fan dan quayle first i want to start right out and say that i m a christian it makes sense to be one have any of you read tony campollo s book liar lunatic or the real thing i might be a little off on the title but he writes the book anyway he was part of an effort to destroy christianity in the process he became a christian himself converts to xtianity have this tendency to excessively darken their pre xtian past frequently falsely anyone who embarks on an effort to destroy xtianity is suffering from deep megalomania a defect which is not cured by religious conversion the arguements he uses i am summing up the book is about whether jesus was god or not i know many of you don t believe but listen to a different perspective for we all have something to gain by listening to what others have to say different perspective different perspective bwahahahahahahahah the book says that jesus was either a liar or he was crazy a modern day koresh or he was actually who he said he was sigh perhaps big j was just mistaken about some of his claims perhaps he was normally insightful but had a few off days perhaps many most of the statements attributed to jesus were not made by him but were put into his mouth by later authors other possibilities abound surely someone seriously examining this question could come up with a decent list of possible alternatives unless the task is not serious examination of the question much less destroying xtianity but rather religious salesmanship some reasons why he wouldn t be a liar are as follows who would die for a lie how many germans died for nazism how many russians died in the name of the proletarian dictatorship how many americans died to make the world safe for democracy what a silly question wouldn t people be able to tell if he was a liar people gathered around him and kept doing it many gathered from hearing or seeing someone who was or had been healed call me a fool but i believe he did heal people is everyone who performs a healing god niether was he a lunatic would more than an entire nation be drawn to someone who was crazy it s probably hard to draw an entire nation to you unless you are crazy very doubtful in fact rediculous for example anyone who is drawn to david koresh is obviously a fool logical people see this right away therefore since he wasn t a liar or a lunatic he must have been the real thing anyone who is convinced by this laughable logic deserves to be a xtian some other things to note he fulfilled loads of prophecies in the psalms isaiah and elsewhere in hrs alone this in his betrayal and crucifixion i don t have my bible with me at this moment next time i write i will use it don t bother many of the prophecies were fulfilled only in the eyes of xtian apologists who distort the meaning of isaiah and other ot books
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by atheism deletions in apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu s n mozumder writes i really don t think you can imagine what it is like to be infinite first of all infinity is a mathematical concept created by humans to explain certain things in a certain way we don t know if it actually applies to reality we don t know if anything in the world is infinite it wouldn t be able to comprehend what reality is like for the programmer because that would require an infinite memory or whatever because reality is continuous and based on infinietely small units no units you don t know if the universe is actually continuous continuum is another mathematical concept based on infinity used to explain things in a certain way because humans do not know what infinite is we call it something beyond numbers we call it endless but we do not know what it is i have a pretty good idea of what infinity is it s a man made concept and like many man made concepts it has evolved through time ancient greeks had a different understanding of it so we can call allah infinitely powerful knowledgeable etc yet we cannot imagine what allah actually is because we just cannot imagine what it is like to be infinite precicely we don t even know if infinity applies to reality sami aario can you see or measure an atom yet you can explode a cc tut fi one sunlight is comprised of many atoms your stupid minds stupid stupid eros in plan from outer space disclaimer i don t agree with eros
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes in article qg g kl fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes you are amazed that i find it difficult to grasp it when people justify death threats against rushdie with the claim he was born muslim this is empty rhetoric i am amazed at your inability to understand what i am saying not that you find it difficult to grasp it when people justify death threats i find it amazing that your ability to consider abstract questions in isolation you seem to believe in the falsity of principles by the consequence of their abuse you must hate physics you re closer than you might imagine i certainly despised living under the soviet regime when it purported to organize society according to what they fondly imagined to be the objective conclusions of marxist dialectic but i don t hate physics so long as some clown doesn t start trying to control my life on the assumption that we are all interchangeable atoms rather than individual human beings jon
alt.atheism	re a little too satanic in article mimsy umd edu mangoe cs umd edu charley wingate writes jeff west writes you claimed that people that took the time to translate the bible would also take the time to get it right but here in less than a couple generations you ve been given ample proof agreed to by yourself above that the new versions tends to be out of step with other modern translations what i said was that people took time to copy the text correctly translations present completely different issues so why do i read in the papers that the qumram texts had different versions of some ot texts did i misunderstand jon
alt.atheism	re note to bobby m in apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu s n mozumder writes insults about the atheistic genocide was totally unintentional under atheism anything can happen good or bad including genocide and you know why this is because you ve conveniently defined a theist as someone who can do no wrong and you ve defined people who do wrong as atheists the above statement is circular not to mention bigoting and as such has no value sami aario can you see or measure an atom yet you can explode a cc tut fi one sunlight is comprised of many atoms your stupid minds stupid stupid eros in plan from outer space disclaimer i don t agree with eros
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie re an anecdote about islam in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice wrote in article c c cn gb ra nrl navy mil khan itd itd nrl navy mil umar khan writes stuff deleted what we should be demanding is for khomeini and his ilk to publicly come clean and to show their proof that islamic law punishes apostacy with death or that it tolerates any similar form of coversion of freedom of conscience all five schools of law to the best of my knowledge support the death sentence for apostasy when it is accompanied by open persistent and aggravated hostility to islam otherwise i agree there is no legal support for punishment of disbelief the qur an makes it clear that belief is a matter of conscience public or private disavowal of islam or conversion to another faith is not punishable there are some jurists who have gone against this trend and insisted that apostasy is punishable even by death but historically they are the exception cursing and insulting the prophets falls under the category of shatim i just borrowed a book from the library on khomeini s fatwa etc lots of stuff deleted and according to the above analysis it looks like khomeini s offering of a reward for rushdie s death in fact constitutes a criminal act according to islamic law please see my post under re yet more rushdie islamic law
alt.atheism	re slavery was re why is sex only allowed in marriage in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes looking at historical evidence such perfect utopian islamic states didn t survive i agree people are people and even if you might start an islamic revolution and create this perfect state it takes some time and the internal corruption will destroy the ground rules again nothing is perfect nothing is perpetual i e even if it is perfect it isn t going to stay that way forever perpetual machines cannot exist i thought that there were some laws in mechanics or thermodynamics stating that not an atheist bn naren bala software evaluation engineer home work all standard disclaimers apply
alt.atheism	re political atheists in article apr news wesleyan edu ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu scott d sauyet says are these his final words and how many here would find that appropriate or is it just that finals got in the way keep your fingers crossed why should i keep my fingers crossed i doubt it would do anything martin schulte
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article qkq t n horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes i ll take a wild guess and say freedom is objectively valuable i base this on the assumption that if everyone in the world were deprived utterly of their freedom so that their every act was contrary to their volition almost all would want to complain therefore i take it that to assert or believe that freedom is not very valuable when almost everyone can see that it is is every bit as absurd as to assert it is not raining on a rainy day i take this to be a candidate for an objective value and it it is a necessary condition for objective morality that objective values such as this exist my own personal and highly subjective opinion is that freedom is a good thing however when i here people assert that the only true freedom is in following the words of this and that messiah i realise that people don t even agree on the meaning of the word what does it mean to say that word x represents an objective value when word x has no objective meaning jon
alt.atheism	re where are they now in article qi innf n senator bedfellow mit edu tcbruno athena mit edu tom bruno writes wow leave your terminal for a few months and everyone you remember goes away how depressing actually there are a few familiar faces out there counting bob and kent but i don t seem to recognize anyone else has anyone heard from graham matthews recently or has he gotten his degree and sailed for greener pastures tm which brings me to the point of my posting how many people out there have been around alt atheism since i ve done my damnedest to stay on top of the newsgroup but when you fall behind you really fall behind it s still not as bad as rec arts startrek used to be but i digress has anyone tried to keep up with the deluge inquiring minds want to know also does anyone keep track of where the more infamous posters to alt atheism end up once they leave the newsgroup just curious i guess cheers tom bruno i am one of those people who always willl have unlimited stores of unfounded respect for people who have been on newsgroups mailing lists longer than i have so you certainly have my sympathy tom i have only been semi regularly posting it is toughto keep up since this february but i have been reading and following the threads since last august my school s newsreader was down for months and our incompetent computing services never bothered to find a new feed site so it wasn t accepting outgoing postings i don t think anyone keeps track of where other posters go it s that old love em and leave em internet for you again best regards adam john cooper verily often have i laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had no claws
alt.atheism	re some thoughts in article bissda saturn wwc edu bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes first i want to start right out and say that i m a christian it that s okay it s what all the rest of them who come on here say makes sense to be one have any of you read tony campollo s book liar lunatic or the real thing i might be a little off on the title but he writes the book anyway he was part of an effort to destroy christianity in the process he became a christian himself this isn t the guy who was a lawyer was he could you give more info on this guy never mind i m sure there will be plenty of responses to this post and it will appear there the arguements he uses i am summing up the book is about whether jesus was god or not i know many of you don t believe but listen to a different perspective for we all have something to gain by listening to what others have to say this is true make sure it is true for all cases the book says that jesus was either a liar or he was crazy a why not both modern day koresh or he was actually who he said he was some reasons why he wouldn t be a liar are as follows who would die for a lie wouldn t people be able to tell if he was a liar why not die for a lie if you were poverty stricken and alunatic sounds perfecetly reasoable to me as to whether the societal dregs he had for followers would be able to tell if he was a liar or not not necessarily even if he died for what he believed in this still makes him completely selfish like us all so what s the difference people gathered around him and kept doing it many gathered from hearing or seeing someone who was or had been healed call me a fool but i believe he did heal people there is no historical proof of this see earlier threads besides he or at least his name have been the cause of enough deaths to make up for whatever healing he gave niether was he a lunatic would more than an entire nation be drawn to someone who was crazy sieg heil very doubtful in fact rediculous for example anyone who is drawn to david koresh is obviously a fool logical people see this right away who is david koresh i am curious therefore since he wasn t a liar or a lunatic he must have been the real thing how does this follow your definition of lunatic and disproof thereof seem rather uhhh shaky some other things to note he fulfilled loads of prophecies in the psalms isaiah and elsewhere in hrs alone this in his betrayal and crucifixion i don t have my bible with me at this moment next time i write i will use it good idea i don t think most people understand what a christian is it is certainly not what i see a lot in churches naturally those or not true christians right rather i think it should be a way of life and a total sacrafice of everything for god s sake he loved us enough to die and save us so we should do the same hey we can t do it god himself inspires us to turn our lives over to him that s tuff and most people don t want to do it to be a real christian would be something for the strong to persevere at but just like weight lifting or guitar playing drums whatever it takes time we don t rush it in one day christianity is your whole life it is not going to church once a week or helping poor people once in a while we box everything into time units such as work at this time sports tv social life god is above these boxes and should be carried with us into all these boxes that we have created for ourselves someone else handle this i don t know if it s worth it sigh adam john cooper verily often have i laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had no claws
alt.atheism	re thoughts on christians in article apr nuscc nus sg cmtan iss nus sg tan chade meng dan writes sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes in article q l cva uxa ecn bgu edu gsu uxa ecn bgu edu eric molas wrote christianity is an infectious cult the reasons it flourishes are because it gives people without hope or driven purpose in life a safety blanked to hide behind oh wow all i have to do is follow this christian moral standard and i get eternal happiness i agree that in many cases primitive emotional feelings based on haha you won t laugh in hell mentalities makes certain religions very attractive for certain personalities i agree with both of u but i would like to make a small point xtianity other dogmatic religions not only attract people without hope etc but also attract average people as well i believe that xtainity thru its escapist doctrines absolutist attitudes provides great psychological shelter from day to day frustrations unhappiness fear of uncertainty unknown etc this is a good point but i think average people do not take up christianity so much out of fear or escapism but quite simply as a way to improve their social life or to get more involved with american culture if they are kids of immigrants for example since it is the overwhelming major religion in the western world in some form or other it is simply the choice people take if they are bored and want to do something new with their lives but not somethong too new or too out of the ordinary seems a little weak but as long as it doesn t hurt anybody the buddha had something to say about the attractiveness of religions when driven by fear man worships sacred mountains sacred stones and sacred trees however the buddha also said if somebody finds peace in any religion let him be these are good quotes and i agree with both of them but let s make sure to alter the scond one so that includes something like let him be as long as he is not preventing others from finding their peace or something like that of course i suppose if someone were really at peace there would be no need for inflicting evangelism personally i feel that since religion have such a poweful psychological effect we should let theists be but the problem is that religions cause enormous harm to non believers and to humanity as a whole holy wars inquisitions inter religious hatred impedence of science intellectual progress us them attitudes etc etc need i say more i really don t know what we can do about them any comments well it is a sure thing we will have to live with them all our lives their popularity seems to come and go i remember when i first entered high school i was an atheist always had been and so were about of my friends at this time of those have converted always to christianity they were all also immigrants from taiwan or sons of immigrants hence my earlier gross generalization christianity seems a lot more popular to people now than it ever has before since i ve been noticing maybe it is just my perceptions that are chagning who knows i for one am perfectly willing to live and let live with them so long as we have some set of abstract rights agreements on how we should treat each other i have no desire to be hurt by them or their notions for all the well put arguments on this usenet it never does any good argumentation does not really seem to apply to christians or even some atheists it must simply be a step the person takes naturally almost instinctively best regards adam john cooper verily often have i laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had no claws the unenlightened one buddhism has the characteristics of what would be tan chade meng expected in a cosmic religion for the future it singapore transcends a personal god avoids dogmas and theology cmtan iss nus sg it covers both the natural spiritual and it is based on a religious sense aspiring from the experience of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity einstein
alt.atheism	re where are they now your posting provoked me into checking my save file for memorable posts the first i captured was by ken arromdee on feb on the subject re atheist too that was article here your question was article which is an average of about articles a day for the last three years as others have noted the current posting rate is such that my kill file is depressing large among the posting i saved in the early days were articles from the following notables from loren sunlight llnl gov loren petrich from jchrist nazareth israel rel jesus christ of nazareth from mrc tomobiki cho cac washington edu mark crispin from perry apollo hp com jim perry from lippard uavax ccit arizona edu james j lippard from minsky media mit edu marvin minsky an interesting bunch i wonder where is geoff arnold pc nfs architect sun select geoff arnold east sun com what if they made the whole thing up the great lie by four guys two thousand years ago over wine the tear garden
alt.atheism	re political atheists kcochran nyx cs du edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes i think that you are confusing the words objective and inherent and objective system is simply one in which an outside observer who given the postulates of the system could perfectly judge any situation or action as consistent with the system right or not wrong you seem to be objecting because the goals of the system are not inherent that is you seem to want to define an objective system as one in which the postulates themselves could be determined by some outside observer i don t think that this is a good definition of an objective system then you need to learn english really gravity is an objective system anybody can learn what it is and perform experiments they will get the same results as every other person who has performed those experiments no gravity is an inherent system you don t need any excess information other than observations to determine anything it is possible to objectively determine someone s guilt or innocence within an non inherent system i agree that morality is not necessarily inherent unless you state that everything we do has an evolutionary basis but this does not mean that it cannot be objective in theory this natural morality is not an objective system as evidenced by your comments about lions and mine perhaps it can be objective but not inherent anyway as i noted before the practices related to mating rituals etc among the animals are likely the only ones to be considered immoral under the previous definitions of the natural law therefore some revisions are in order since the class of activities surrounding mating seem to pose some general problems and in fact the only way that the postulates could be determined by an outsider would be if there were some sort of higher truth like some sort of god or something but i do not think that a god is necessary for an objective system while it seems that you do what are you trying to say here it seens that you are objecting to the notion of an objective system because perhaps you think that it would imply inherence which would necessitate some sort of grand design no i have classified behavior of most animals as in line with a moral system it is certainly possible for animals to commit acts which are outside of their rules of ethics but they don t seem to do so very often perhaps they are not intelligent enough to be immoral and perhaps it s because you have yet to define a moral system i think i have it is a code of ethics which basically defines undesired behaviors etc an immoral behavior could be unwanted unproductive or destructive etc depending on the goal of the system that is immoral to what end keith
alt.atheism	re political atheists kcochran nyx cs du edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes natural morality may specifically be thought of as a code of ethics that a certain species has developed in order to survive wait are we talking about ethics or morals here is the distinction important we see this countless times in the animal kingdom and such a natural system is the basis for our own system as well huh well our moral system seems to mimic the natural one in a number of ways in order for humans to thrive we seem to need to live in groups here s your problem we seem to need what s wrong with the highlighted word i don t know what is wrong is it possible for humans to survive for a long time in the wild yes it s possible but it is difficult humans are a social animal and that is a cause of our success and in order for a group to function effectively it needs some sort of ethical code this statement is not correct isn t it why don t you think so and by pointing out that a species conduct serves to propogate itself i am not trying to give you your tautology but i am trying to show that such are examples of moral systems with a goal propogation of the species is a goal of a natural system of morality so anybody who lives in a monagamous relationship is not moral after all in order to ensure propogation of the species every man should impregnate as many women as possible no as noted earlier lack of mating such as abstinence or homosexuality isn t really destructive to the system it is a worst neutral for that matter in herds of horses only the dominate stallion mates when he dies is killed whatever the new dominate stallion is the only one who mates these seems to be a case of your natural system of morality trying to shoot itself in the figurative foot again the mating practices are something to be reexamined keith
alt.atheism	re political atheists kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes but chimps are almost human does this mean that chimps have a moral will well chimps must have some system they live in social groups as we do so they must have some laws dictating undesired behavior keith
alt.atheism	re political atheists sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes so how do you then explain sudden violent behavior of human beings your theory would state that the more the human is detached from primitive behavior the more violent and non moralistic the human becomes please correct me if my understanding was wrong so you have this bifurcation point where a madman is killing people from the roof of a campus could you explain how your theory explains such a situation madmen are mad do we try to explain the output from a broken computer i think not keith
alt.atheism	re political atheists bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes to show that the examples i and others have provided are not counter examples of your supposed inherent moral hypothesis you have to successfully argue that domestication removes or alters this morality i think that domestication will change behavior to a large degree domesticated animals exhibit behaviors not found in the wild i don t think that they can be viewed as good representatives of the wild animal kingdom since they have been bred for thousands of years to produce certain behaviors etc keith
alt.atheism	re political atheists mmwang adobe com michael wang writes well i have typed in the oed definitions as you will note upon reading them a punishment being an inanimate object is incapable of showing mercy so you can not say that a merciless punishment is a cruel one sorry you must have missed the stuff in parens when you read the definition where transf transferred sense and fig figurative ly things can be cruel samples of text from the first definition include because i would not see thy cruell nailes plucke out his poore old eyes and the puniness of man in the centre of a cruel and frowning universe sure nails can be cruel i d imagine nails in your eyes would be very painful but this does not imply that a painless death is cruel which is what you are supposed to be trying to show keith
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in sfnntrc wbo lruk andrew cmu edu david r sacco dsav andrew cmu edu writes after tons of mail could we move this discussion to alt religion yes mac there are many here among us who feel that life is but a joke bob dylan if you were happy every day of your life you wouldn t be a human being you d be a game show host taken from the movie heathers lecture lek chur process by which the notes of the professor become the notes of the student without passing through the minds of either michael a cobb and i won t raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs champaign urbana bill clinton rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu with new taxes and spending cuts we ll still have billion dollar deficits
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in qjahh mrs horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article pww spac at rice edu pww spacsun rice edu peter walker writes in article qie fkt horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer wrote objective morality is morality built from objective values but where do those objective values come from how can we measure them what mediated thair interaction with the real world a moralon or a scalar valuino field science the real world has its basis in values not the other way round as you would wish it if there is no such thing as objective value then science can not objectively be said to be more useful than a kick in the head simple theories with accurate predictions could not objectively be said to be more useful than a set of tarot cards you like those conclusions i don t and how do we know they exist in the first place one assumes objective reality one doesn t know it frank o dwyer i m not hatching that odwyer sse ie from hens by evelyn conlon how do we measure truth beauty goodness love friendship trust honesty etc if things have no basis in objective fact then aren t we limited in what we know to be true can t we say that we can examples or instances of reason but cannot measure reason or is that semantics mac michael a cobb and i won t raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs champaign urbana bill clinton rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu with new taxes and spending cuts we ll still have billion dollar deficits
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in kmr po cwru edu kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes in article qj gq mg horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes is good logic better than bad is good science better than bad by definition great good okay bad horrible better worse good is defined as being better than bad how do we come up with this setup is this subjective if enough people agreed we could switch the order isn t this defining one unknown thing by another that is good is that which is better than bad and bad is that which is worse than good circular mac only when the sun starts to orbit the earth will i accept the bible michael a cobb and i won t raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs champaign urbana bill clinton rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu with new taxes and spending cuts we ll still have billion dollar deficits
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in lsran inn a exodus eng sun com emarsh hernes sun eng sun com eric marsh writes in article c hqxj jdg ux cso uiuc edu lis bw ux cso uiuc edu lis student writes hmmmm define objective morality well depends upon who you talk to some say it means you can t have your hair over your ears and others say it means stryper is acceptable i would say that general principles of objective morality would be listed in one or two places ten commandments sayings of jesus the first depends on whether you trust the bible the second depends on both whether you think jesus is god and whether you think we have accurate copies of the nt gong take a moment and look at what you just wrote first you defined an objective morality and then you qualified this objective morality with subjective justifications do you see the error in this sorry you have just disqualified yourself but please play again mac eric huh please explain is there a problem because i based my morality on something that could be wrong gosh there s a heck of a lot of stuff that i believe that could be wrong and that comes from sources that could be wrong what do you base your belief on atheism on your knowledge and reasoning couldn t that be wrong mac michael a cobb and i won t raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs champaign urbana bill clinton rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu with new taxes and spending cuts we ll still have billion dollar deficits
alt.atheism	re islamic genocide o k so pick former yugoslavia instead and say their problems are caused by communism it doesn t really matter but i guess religious leaders are calling for an end to that too so it can t be religiously motivated this despite the fact that the christians carve crosses in dead muslims chests maybe they just want land maybe its something else they want maybe the cross carvings are just accidental i don t know just looks suspicious most likely the tragic situation in bosnia is a combination of ethnical and religious motives where religion is just one attribute that separates the groups from each other but i must agree that the sad saga in bosnia is a terrible example of a case where religion is not helping instead it is used as a weapon against other humans and my sympathies are mostly on the bosnian side it looks like the serbs are the oppressors willing to use even christianity as a weapon against their former friends cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re death penalty was re political atheists the death penalty was conceived as a deterrent to crime but the legal shenanigans that have been added automatic appeals lengthy court battles etc have relegated that purpose to a very small part of what it should be hence the question is do we instate the death penalty as it was meant to be and see if that deters crime or do we get rid of it entirely i doubt the death penalty was supposed to be a deterrent to crime if so why doesn t every crime carry a death penalty that would be effictive wouldn t it the death penalty is a punishment much like a fine for speeding is a punishment anyway somebody with murder on the mind doesn t much care about the consequences i think another problem is that people dont think they will get caught if i wanted to kill another person i wouldn t care what the penalty was if i didn t think i would get caught if it was to be strictly a deterrent it should have been more along the lines of torture dave fuller dfuller portal hq videocart com
alt.atheism	re thoughts on christians cmtan iss nus sg tan chade meng dan writes personally i feel that since religion have such a poweful psychological effect we should let theists be but the problem is that religions cause enormous harm to non believers and to humanity as a whole holy wars inquisitions inter religious hatred impedence of science intellectual progress us them attitudes etc etc need i say more i really don t know what we can do about them any comments i have always held that there should be no attempt to change a persons attitude or lifestyle as long as it makes them happy and does not tax anybody else this seems to be ok for atheists you don t get an atheist knocking on your door stopping you in the airport or handing out literature at a social event theists seem to think that thier form of happy should work for others and try to make it so my sister is a born again and she was a real thorn in the side for my entire family for several years she finally got the clue that she couldn t help during that period she bought me i was atheist now i m xtian books for my birthday and xmas several times our birthday cards would contain verses it was a problem i told my mom that i was going to send my sister an atheist piece of reading material i got a don t you dare my mom wasn t religious why did she insist that i not send it because our society has driven into us that religion is ok to preach non religion should be self contained what a crock of shit i finally told my sister that i didn t find her way of life attractive i have seen exactly effort from her on trying to convert me since then i m sick of religious types being pampered looked out for and worst of all respected more than atheists there must be an end in sight dave fuller dfuller portal hq videocart com
alt.atheism	re bible quiz kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes would you mind e mailing me the questions with the pairs of answers i would love to have them for the next time a theist comes to my door i d like this too maybe you should post an answer key after a while nanci if you know and are sure of the author of this quote please send me email nm w andrew cmu edu it is better to be a coward for a minute than dead for the rest of your life
alt.atheism	why the bible one thing i think is interesting about alt athiesm is the fact that without bible thumpers and their ilk this would be a much duller newsgroup it almost needs the deluded masses to write silly things for athiests to tear apart oh well that little tidbit aside here is what i really wanted write about how can anyone believe in such a sorry document as the bible if you want to be religious aren t there more plausable books out there seriously the bible was written by multiple authors who repeatedly contradict each other one minute it tells you to kill your kid if he talks back and the next it says not to kill at all i think that if xtians really want to follow a deity they should pick one that can be consistent unlike the last one they invented for people who say jesus was the son of god didn t god say not to ever put anyone else before him looks like you did just that didn t god say not to make any symbols or idols what are crosses then don t you think that if you do in fact believe in the bible that you are rather far off track was jesus illiterate why didn t he write anything anyone know i honestly hope that people who believe in the bible understand that it is just one of the religious texts out there and that it is one of the poorer quality ones to boot the only reason xtianity escaped the middle east is because a certain roman who s wine was poisoned with lead made all of rome xtian after a bad dream if this posting keeps one person just one person from standing on a streetcorner and telling people they are going to hell i will be happy only hatred and snap judgements can guide your robots through life dr clayton forester mad scientist
alt.atheism	re political atheists kcochran nyx cs du edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes how many contridictions do you want to see good question if i claim something is a general trend then to disprove this i guess you d have to show that it was not a general trend no if you re going to claim something then it is up to you to prove it think cold fusion well i ve provided examples to show that the trend was general and you or others have provided some counterexamples mostly ones surrounding mating practices etc i don t think that these few cases are enough to disprove the general trend of natural morality and again the mating practices need to be reexamined try to find immoral non mating related activities so you re excluding mating related activities from your natural morality no but mating practices are a special case i ll have to think about it some more yes i think that the natural system can be objectively deduced with the goal of species propogation in mind but i am not equating the two as you so think that is an objective system isn t necessarily the natural one are you or are you not the man who wrote a natural moral system is the objective moral system that most animals follow indeed but while the natural system is objective all objective systems are not the natural one so the terms can not be equated the natural system is a subset of the objective ones now since homosexuality has been observed in most animals including birds and dolphins are you going to claim that most animals have the capacity of being immoral i don t claim that homosexuality is immoral it isn t harmful although it isn t helpful either to the mating process and when you say that homosexuality is observed in the animal kingdom don t you mean bisexuality because we can t determine to what end we should be moral are you claiming to be a group we usually implies more than one entity this is standard jargon read any textbook the we forms are used throughout well i m saying that these goals are not inherent that is why they must be postulates because there is not really a way to determine them otherwise although it could be argued that they arise from the natural goal but they are somewhat removed postulate to assume posit that s right the goals themselves aren t inherent i can create a theory with a postulate that the sun revolves around the earth that the moon is actually made of green cheese and the stars are the portions of angels that intrudes into three dimensional reality you could but such would contradict observations i can build a mathematical proof with a postulate that given the length of one side of a triangle the length of a second side of the triangle and the degree of angle connecting them i can determine the length of the third side but a postulate is something that is generally or always found to be true i don t think your postulate would be valid guess which one people are going to be more receptive to in order to assume something about your system you have to be able to show that your postulates work yes and i think the goals of survival and happiness do work you think they don t or are they not good goals keith
alt.atheism	re new member in article c hiew s portal hq videocart com dfuller portal hq videocart com dave fuller writes hello i just started reading this group today and i think i am going to be a large participant in its daily postings i liked the section of the faq about constructing logical arguments well done i am an atheist but i do not try to turn other people into atheists i only try to figure why people believe the way they do i don t much care if they have a different view than i do when it comes down to it i could be wrong i am willing to admit the possibility something religious followers dont seem to have the capability to do happy to be aboard dave fuller dfuller portal hq videocart com welcome i am the official keeper of the list of nicknames that people are known by on alt atheism didn t know we had such a list did you your have been awarded the nickname of buckminster so the next time you post an article sign with your nickname like so dave buckminster fuller thanks again jim humor means never having to say you re sorry copeland if god is dead and the actor plays his part sting his words of fear will find their way to a place in your heart history without the voice of reason every faith is its own curse will teach us without freedom from the past things can only get worse nothing
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie in article c hkv epv blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee writes in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes judaism for one maddi has confirmed this for one and again i reiterate that one can easily leave the religion at any time simply by making a public declaration if one is too lazy to do that then the religion cannot be held responsible there are many islamic countries where publically renouncing islam can be quite dangerous these countries might not according to you necessarily be practicing true islam but the danger still remains one cannot blame failure to publically renounce islam on laziness as opposed to a desire to stay alive and well of course if you re planning to pull a rushdie then declaring one s leaving the religion is little to be concerned about compared to one s other plans in rushdie s case the one under discussion one can it is tragic that in some islamic countries this is so there are however islamic countries whose constitutions contains statements that islamic law is to be incorporated e g kuwait where one can freely make such statements without fear not to mention that it has already been pointed out that rushdie has said in his books that he s not a muslim and there have surely been enough readers of his books to provide the appropriate number of witnesses this story has become tiresome the conditions are clear if you care to make your point clear then make a chronology and show that he had made public statements about leaving islam prior to his writing of tsv if he did make such statements then he should have made that clear rather than trying to rejoin islam or go on talking about his personal feelings gregg
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article apr bradford ac uk l newnham bradford ac uk leonard newnham writes gregg jaeger jaeger buphy bu edu wrote khomenei was a jerk and so were plenty of british leaders so what the qur an is the basis of judgement khomenei was clearly a heretic by the standards of the qur an end of story could you be a little more specific as to exactly why khomanei was a heretic and a jerk as judged by the koran i have no liking for the guy but as far as i know he has done nothing contrary to the teachings of the koran or at least so i m told by several iranian research students that i share an office with it is easy and convenient for you to denounce him but i have the feeling that your views are not as clear cut and widely accepted as you suggest i have made this clear elsewhere but will do so again khomeini put a price on the head of someone in another country this makes him a jerk as well as an international outlaw khomeini advocates the view that there was a series of twelve islamic leaders the twelve imams who are free of error or sin this makes him a heretic in the qur an muhammad is chastised for error directly by god the qur an says that muhammad is the greatest example of proper islamic behavior thus no muslim is free from error as usual there seems to be almost as many islamic viewpoints as there are muslims perhaps it seems so to you but this is hardly the case there is widespread agreement about matters of islam there certainly are many viewpoints on issues which are not particularly islamic in and of themselves but this is so for any large group of people under the same name it all comes back to the koran being so imprecise in its wording the qur an is not particularly imprecise in wording though it is true that several interpretations are possible in the interpretations of many words however as an entire text the qur an makes its meanings precise enough for intelligent people free from power lust to come to agreement about them gregg
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article apr bradford ac uk l newnham bradford ac uk leonard newnham writes gregg jaeger jaeger buphy bu edu wrote well it seemed slightly incongruous to find the union jack flying at city hall in belfast may i ask why it s there not because the british want it there ni is just one big expensive problem it s there because that is what the majority of the population of ni want is there some problem with that the majority of those who can open their mouths in public perhaps there seems quite alot of incentive for the british to have control of ni like using the north channel and irish sea as a waste dump i was appalled at the dumping i saw in the harbor in belfast it is my understanding that quite alot of radioactivity enters the water it d be quite a problem if ni got its independence from britain and then stopped accepting the waste are you suggesting that british industry isn t making profit off the situation as well gregg
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article apr bradford ac uk l newnham bradford ac uk leonard newnham writes gregg jaeger jaeger buphy bu edu wrote could you please explain in what way the qur an in your eyes carries the excess baggage of another era the qur an in my opinion carries no such baggage how about trying to run a modern economy without charging interest on loans from what i hear even fundamentalist iran is having to compromise this ideal which sort of loans and what have you heard exactly gregg
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article qi l jkj fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes i hope an islamic bank is something other than bcci which ripped off so many small depositors among the muslim community in the uk and elsewhere jon grow up childish propagandist gregg
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie in article apr bradford ac uk l newnham bradford ac uk leonard newnham writes gregg jaeger jaeger buphy bu edu wrote and no in western countries it isn t a legal concept at all so it s not the slightest bit pertinent to the topic which is a british author living in the united kingdom under the protection of british law ah yes i keep forgetting governments are superior entities to religious organizations forgive me the gun is the higher law this is degenerating to zumder logic of course governments are superior entities they are elected by the people whereas religious leaders certainly are not perhaps not in christianity but in islam the choice of religious leaders is to be made by the people so much for your superiority argument those who the people trust to make the law obviously represents the higher law that is democracy democracy is a basic element of islam learn that one ever notice that the so called fundamentalists in algeria who are being repressed by the secular government won in free and democratic elections gregg
alt.atheism	re free moral agency in article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes from bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine subject re free moral agency date apr gmt in article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy r healy writes in the old testement satan is rarely mentioned if at all huh doesn t the sda bible contain the book of job this is why there is suffering in the world we are caught inthe crossfire and sometimes innocents as well as teh guilty get hurt that s my opinion and i hope i cleared up a few things seems like your omnipotent and omniscient god has got some splainin to do then or did he just create satan for shits and giggles bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea i didn t say it never mentioned satan i said it rarely if at all please excuse me for my lack of perfect memory or omnipotence tammy p s i m soory if i sound cranky i apoplogize now before anyone s feelings get hurt
alt.atheism	re note to bobby m in article apr daffy cs wisc edu mccullou snake cs wisc edu mark mccullough writes from mccullou snake cs wisc edu mark mccullough subject re note to bobby m date wed apr gmt in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes in madhausc ckip h netcom com madhaus netcom com maddi hausmann writes mark how much do you really know about vegetarian diets the problem is not some b vitamins it s balancing proteins there is also one vitamin that cannot be obtained from non animal products and this is only of concern to vegans who eat no meat dairy or eggs i believe it is b and it is the only problem supplements are available for vegans yes the b does come from animal by products if you are on an ovo lacto vegetarian diet eat dairy and eggs this is not an issue i didn t see the original posting but yes i do know about vegetarian diets considering that several of my close friends are devout vegetarians and have to take vitamin supplements b was one of the ones i was thinking of it has been a long time since i read the article i once saw talking about the special dietary needs of vegetarians so i didn t quote full numbers considering how nice this place is b can also come from whole grain rice i understand some brands here in australia and other places too i m sure get the b in the b tablets from whole grain rice are you sure those aren t an enriched type i know it is basically rice and soybeans to get almost everything you need but i hadn t heard of any rice having b just thought i d contribute on a different issue from the norm you should have contributed to the programming thread earlier fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au m if one is a vegan a vegetarian taht eats no animal products at at i e eggs milk cheese etc after about years of a vegan diet you need to start taking b supplements because b is found only in animals acutally our bodies make b i think but our bodies use up our own b after or years lacto oveo vegetarians like myself still get b through milk products and eggs so we don t need supplements and if anyone knows more please post it i m nearly contridicting myself with the mish mash of knowledge i ve gleaned tammy
alt.atheism	re morality was re political atheists kcochran nyx cs du edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes so you are saying that it isn t possible for an instinctive act to be moral one that is in order for an act to be an act of morality the person must consider the immoral action but then disregard it no i m saying that in order for an act to be moral or immoral somebody someone something must consider it to be so that implies intelligence not instinct who has to consider it the being that does the action i m still not sure i know what you are trying to say keith
alt.atheism	re morality was re political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes so you are saying that it isn t possible for an instinctive act to be moral one i like to think that many things are possible explain to me how instinctive acts can be moral acts and i am happy to listen for example if it were instinctive not to murder that is in order for an act to be an act of morality the person must consider the immoral action but then disregard it weaker than that there must be the possibility that the organism it s not just people we are talking about can consider alternatives so only intelligent beings can be moral even if the bahavior of other beings mimics theirs and how much emphasis do you place on intelligence animals of the same species could kill each other arbitarily but they don t are you trying to say that this isn t an act of morality because most animals aren t intelligent enough to think like we do keith
alt.atheism	re morality was re political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes i don t expect the lion to know or not know anything of the kind in fact i don t have any evidence that lions ever consider such issues and that of course is why i don t think you can assign moral significance to the instinctive behaviour of lions what i ve been saying is that moral behavior is likely the null behavior that is it doesn t take much work to be moral but it certainly does to be immoral in some cases also i ve said that morality is a remnant of evolution our moral system is based on concepts well practiced in the animal kingdom so you are basically saying that you think a moral is an undefinable term and that moral systems don t exist if we can t agree on a definition of these terms then how can we hope to discuss them no it s perfectly clear that i am saying that i know what a moral is in my system but that i can t speak for other people but this doesn t get us anywhere your particular beliefs are irrelevant unless you can share them or discuss them keith
alt.atheism	re was re cruel was re political atheists sdoe nmsu edu stephen doe writes of course if at some later time we think that the death penalty is cruel or unusual it will be outlawed but at the present most people don t seem to think this way this from the same fellow who speaks of an objective or natural morality i suppose that if the majority decides slavery is ok then it is no longer immoral i did not claim that our system was objective keith
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie in article bcc b ics uci edu bvickers ics uci edu brett j vickers writes in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes well seeing as you are not muslim the sort of fatwa issued by khomeini would not be relevant to you i can understand your fear of persecution and i share it even more than you being muslim however rushdie s behavior was not completely excusable why should a fatwa issued by khomeini be relevant to anyone who doesn t live in iran issued by khomeini it shouldn t be relevant to anyone but issued by an honest and learned scholar of islam it would be relevant to any muslim as it would be contrary to islamic law which all muslims are required to respect who is it that decides whether rushdie s behavior is excusable anyone sufficiently well versed in islamic law and capable of reasoning if you are talking about a weak sense of excuse it depends on what sense of excuse you have in mind and who cares if you think it is inexcusable only someone who thinks my opinion is important obviously obviously you don t care nor do i care that you don t care gregg
alt.atheism	re free moral agency and kent s in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes from sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik subject re free moral agency and kent s date thu apr gmt in article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy r healy wrote ezekiel says your hart was filled with pride because of all your beauty you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor therefore i have cast you down the the ground and exposed you helpless before the curious gaze of kings for those of you who are bible scholars you knowthat the st verses refer to the prince of tyre this is a prophesy about and addressed to the human prince verses refer to the king of tyre which is a term for satan tammy what s the rationale to connect the prince of tyre with satan could you give us more rational bible cites thanks i m afraid that if this is not the case your thinking model falls apart like a house of cards but let s see cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net at the time ezekiel was written israel was in apostacy again and if i m not mistaken tyre was about to make war on israel like i said the prince of tyre was the human ruler of tyre he was a wicked man by calling satan the king of tyre ezekiel was saying that satan is the real ruler over tyre don t think my interpretation is neccessarily the orthodox christian one although most christian bible commentaries interpret the king of tyre as being a reference to satan i haven t read ezekiel throughly in a long time tammy
alt.atheism	re free moral agency and jeff clark in article bb dfc i dbstu rz tu bs de i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau writes from i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau subject re free moral agency and jeff clark date thu apr gmt in article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy r healy writes deletion you also said why did millions suffer for what adam and ee did seems a pretty sick way of going about creating a universe i m gonna respond by giving a small theology lesson forgive me i used to be a theology major first of all i believe that this planet is involved in a cosmic struggle the great controversy betweed christ and satan i borrowed a book title god has to consider the interests of the entire universe when making decisions deletion an universe it has created by the way can you tell me why it is less tyrannic to let one of one s own creatures do what it likes to others by your definitions your god has created satan with full knowledge what would happen including every choice of satan can you explain us what free will is and how it goes along with omniscience didn t your god know everything that would happen even before it created the world why is it concerned about being a tyrant when noone would care if everything was fine for them that the whole idea comes from the possibility to abuse power something your god introduced according to your description by the way are you sure that you have read the faq especially the part about preaching benedikt i don t feel that i m preaching i m just trying to answer people s questions and talking about my religion my beliefs when it comes to what i post i don t do it with the intent of converting anyone i don t expect for the atheists in this newsgroup to take what i say with a grain of salt if they so wish i just state what i beleve they ask me how i believeit and why and we all go on if that s preaching then i m soory and i ll get off the soapbox tammy
alt.atheism	re pompous ass arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee writes look i m not the one that made those nazi comparisons other people compared what the religious people are doing now to nazi germany they have said that it started out with little things but no one really knew about any of these little things strangely enough and grew to bigger things they said that the motto is but one of the little things you just contradicted yourself the motto is one of those little things that nobody has bothered mentiopning to you huh the little things above were in reference to germany clearly people said that there were similar things in germany but no one could name any they said that these were things that everyone should know and that they weren t going to waste their time repeating them sounds to me like no one knew either i looked in some books but to no avail that is going to pave the way for other intrusions of course if the motto hasn t caused problems in its year history then i doubt it is going to it has caused problems you just ignore every instance when someone describes one to you it has caused problems again no one has shown that things were better before the motto or that they d likely be better after i don t think the motto initiates any sort of harassment harassment will occur whether or not the motto is present keith
alt.atheism	re pompous ass andrew newell tan psuvm psu edu writes i think you should support your first claim that people will simply harass me no matter what as i doubt this is true i think some of the theists will be at a loss and that is enough reason for me because in god we trust is a motto on the coins and the coins are a representation of the government christians are given ammunition here to slander atheists as unpatriotic so we should ban the ammunition why not get rid of the guns and yes i have heard this used in conversation with christians sure they may fall back on other things but this is one they should not have available to use it is worse than others the national anthem should it be changed too god bless america the list goes on imagine if the next year s set of coins were labeled with the motto god is dead certainly such a statement on u s coins would offend almost every christian and i d be tempted to rub that motto in the face of christians when debunking their standard motto slinging gets boring then you d be no better than the people you despise any statement printed on an item that represents the government is an endorsement by the government oh the coin motto is an endorsement of trusting in god an endorsement or an acknowledgement i think gods are things that people are proud of but i don t think the motto encourages belief i don t particularly feel like trusting in god so the government is putting me down with every coin it prints is it for the motto to be legitimate it would have to read in god gods or godlessness we trust would you approve of such a motto whether the motto was intended to be anti atheist or not it turns up as an open invitation to use as an anti atheist tool and removing the tool will solve the problem or will it increase the problem keith
alt.atheism	re objective morality was re political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes i want to know how this omniscient being is going to perform the feat of definitely terming actions right or wrong if you were omniscient you d know who exactly did what and with what purpose in mind then with a particular goal in mind you sould be able to methodically judge whether or not this action was in accordance with the general goal i don t think you ve show the existence of any objective moral system they exist but in practice they are difficult to perfectly emulate i mean you understand the concept of an objective system right i thought you were explaining it to us i certainly don t understand what you are explaining in an objective system there are known goals then actions are judged as either being compatible with these goals or not simple the problem with most systems in current practice is that the goals differ that is the goals of each society are different note that an objective system is not necessarily an inherent one the concept of innocence is dependent on whether certain actions are right or wrong and this depends on the moral system but if we have an objective system then someone can be deemed innocent or not quite easily by an omniscient person anyway i think i cleared up the recursive definition of murder because no one is complaining about it i don t think it solves anything to speculate where we would be if we did have an objective moral system the question is still whether you can even say what one is i ve said it many many times and for what it s worth i don t think you cleared up anything concerning murder which part do you have a problem with what do you mean by harmed is it harm if you have to spend your existence metabolising food for another species oh most moral systems would be considered only within a species it is okay for us to enslave other animals right but not humans of course ideally perhaps we wouldn t even have to bother any other animals one the first point it s wrong to enslave humans according to my persoanl moral system on the second point i m a vegetarian but we can enslave the animals right but just not kill them or are you a vegetarian for health reasons so are you a vegetarian no i fail to see how my personal views are relevant anyway is it wrong to eat animals in your personal moral system of course not it seems perfectly valid to kill members of other species for food it might be nice though if the other animals were not made to suffer for instance a cow in a field lives out its life just about the same way it would in the wild they seem happy enough however the veal youngsters aren t treated very well how about an objective moral system i don t know what is the goal of this particular system there is no inherent system how about a natural moral system nope again it seems okay to kill other species for food keith
alt.atheism	re who are we to judge bobby in article kmr po cwru edu kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes from kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan subject re who are we to judge bobby date thu apr gmt s n mozumder writes tammy r healy writes i would like to take the liberty to quote from a christian writer named ellen g white i hope that what she said will help you to edit your remarks in this group in the future do not set yourself as a standard do not make your opinions your views of duty your interpretations of scripture a criterion for others and in your heart condemn them if they do not come up to your ideal thoughts fromthe mount of blessing p point point you have taken it upon yourself to judge others when only god is the true judge only when the sun starts to orbit the earth will i accept the bible i agree totally with you amen you stated it better and in less world than i did tammy
alt.atheism	re some thoughts in article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes from bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine subject re some thoughts keywords dan bissell date apr gmt in article bissda saturn wwc edu bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes first i want to start right out and say that i m a christian it makes sense to be one have any of you read tony campollo s book liar lunatic or the real thing i might be a little off on the title but he writes the book anyway he was part of an effort to destroy christianity in the process he became a christian himself this should be good fun it s been a while since the group has had such a ripe opportunity to gut gill and fillet some poor bastard ah well off to get the popcorn bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea i hope you re not going to flame him please give him the same coutesy you ve given me tammy
alt.atheism	re who are we to judge bobby in article apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu s n mozumder writes from snm ultb isc rit edu s n mozumder subject re who are we to judge bobby date wed apr gmt in article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy r healy writes bobby i would like to take the liberty to quote from a christian writer named ellen g white i hope that what she said will help you to edit your remarks in this group in the future do not set yourself as a standard do not make your opinions your views of duty your interpretations of scripture a criterion for others and in your heart condemn them if they do not come up to your ideal thoughts fromthe mount of blessing p i hope quoting this doesn t make the atheists gag but i think ellen white put it better than i could tammy point peace bobby mozumder my point is that you set up your views as the only way to believe saying that all eveil in this world is caused by atheism is ridiculous and counterproductive to dialogue in this newsgroups i see in your posts a spirit of condemnation of the atheists in this newsgroup bacause they don t believe exactly as you do if you re here to try to convert the atheists here you re failing miserably who wants to be in position of constantly defending themselves agaist insulting attacks like you seem to like to do i m sorry you re so blind that you didn t get the messgae in the quote everyone else has seemed to tammy
alt.atheism	re death penalty was re political atheists in article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes in article apr leland stanford edu rush leland stanford edu voelkerding writes if we worry about the one case in or more where an innocent man is convicted of something horrible enough to warrant the death penalty and hence put laws into place which make it virtually impossible to actually execute real criminals then the death penalty is not serving its original purpose it should either be changed or done away with i don t have numbers to back this up so take the following accordingly you use an off the cuff number of in innocent people sentenced to die as an acceptable loss for the benefit of capital punishment i d be very very surprised if the ratio were that low there have been approximately a dozen known cases of the execution of the innocent in the us since the turn of the century have we in that same period sentenced people to death accounting for those cases that we don t know the truth it seems reasonable to assume that twice that many innocent people have in fact been executed that would raise the number of death sentences metered out since to half a million for your acceptance ratio to hold i rather doubt that s the case the point of course is what is an acceptable loss in seems we re probably not doing even that well in in or should we perhaps find a better solution bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com any suggestions as to what a better solution might be i realize the off hand nature of the numbers i used and i can t answer as to what an acceptable loss rate is however as i said in another post i despise the idea of supporting criminals for life it s the economics of the situation that concern me most the money spent feeding clothing housing and taking care of people who have demonstrated that they are unfit to live in society could go to a number of places all of which i and probably others would consider far more worthwhile and which would enrish the lives of all americans give people jobs give the homeless shelter any number of things clyde little girls like butterflies don t need a reason robert heinlein
alt.atheism	re some thoughts bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes the book says that jesus was either a liar or he was crazy a modern day koresh or he was actually who he said he was or he was just convinced by religious fantasies of the time that he was the messiah or he was just some rebel leader that an organisation of jews built into godhood for the purpose off throwing of the yoke of roman oppression or some reasons why he wouldn t be a liar are as follows who would die for a lie are the moslem fanatics who strap bombs to their backs and driving into jewish embassies dying for the truth hint they think they are were the nazi soldiers in wwii dying for the truth people die for lies all the time wouldn t people be able to tell if he was a liar people was hitler a liar how about napoleon mussolini ronald reagan we spend millions of dollars a year trying to find techniques to detect lying so the answer is no they wouldn t be able to tell if he was a liar if he only lied about some things gathered around him and kept doing it many gathered from hearing or seeing someone who was or had been healed call me a fool but i believe he did heal people why do you think he healed people because the bible says so but if god doesn t exist the other possibility then the bible is not divinely inspired and one can t use it as a piece of evidence as it was written by unbiased observers niether was he a lunatic would more than an entire nation be drawn to someone who was crazy very doubtful in fact rediculous for example were hitler or mussolini lunatics how about genghis khan jim jones there are thousands of examples through history of people being drawn to lunatics anyone who is drawn to david koresh is obviously a fool logical people see this right away therefore since he wasn t a liar or a lunatic he must have been the real thing so we obviously cannot rule out liar or lunatic not to mention all the other possibilities not given in this triad some other things to note he fulfilled loads of prophecies in the psalms isaiah and elsewhere in hrs alone this in his betrayal possibly self fulfilling prophecy ie he was aware what he should do in order to fulfil these prophecies possibly selective diting on behalf of those keepers of the holy bible for a thousand years or so before the general public had access possibly also that the text is written in such riddles like nostradamus that anything that happens can be twisted to fit the words of raving fictional prophecy and crucifixion i don t have my bible with me at this moment next time i write i will use it stuff about how hard it is to be a christian deleted i severely recommend you reconsider the reasons you are a christian they are very unconvincing to an unbiased observer jeff
alt.atheism	re political atheists in article ql ajinn kj gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes but chimps are almost human does this mean that chimps have a moral will well chimps must have some system they live in social groups as we do so they must have some laws dictating undesired behavior ah the verb to must i was warned about that one back in kindergarten so why must they have such laws jon
alt.atheism	re some thoughts bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes first i want to start right out and say that i m a christian it i know i shouldn t get involved but bit deleted the book says that jesus was either a liar or he was crazy a modern day koresh or he was actually who he said he was some reasons why he wouldn t be a liar are as follows who would die for a lie wouldn t people be able to tell if he was a liar people gathered around him and kept doing it many gathered from hearing or seeing someone who was or had been healed call me a fool but i believe he did heal people niether was he a lunatic would more than an entire nation be drawn to someone who was crazy very doubtful in fact rediculous for example anyone who is drawn to david koresh is obviously a fool logical people see this right away therefore since he wasn t a liar or a lunatic he must have been the real thing righto dan try this one with your cornflakes the book says that muhammad was either a liar or he was crazy a modern day mad mahdi or he was actually who he said he was some reasons why he wouldn t be a liar are as follows who would die for a lie wouldn t people be able to tell if he was a liar people gathered around him and kept doing it many gathered from hearing or seeing how his son in law made the sun stand still call me a fool but i believe he did make the sun stand still niether was he a lunatic would more than an entire nation be drawn to someone who was crazy very doubtful in fact rediculous for example anyone who is drawn to the mad mahdi is obviously a fool logical people see this right away therefore since he wasn t a liar or a lunatic he must have been the real thing ron house usq house helios usq edu au toowoomba australia
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes in article qi l jkj fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes i hope an islamic bank is something other than bcci which ripped off so many small depositors among the muslim community in the uk and elsewhere jon grow up childish propagandist gregg i m really sorry if having it pointed out that in practice things aren t quite the wonderful utopia you folks seem to claim them to be upsets you but exactly who is being childish here is open to question bbci was an example of an islamically owned and operated bank what will someone bet me they weren t real islamic owners and operators and yet it actually turned out to be a long running and quite ruthless operation to steal money from small and often quite naive depositors and why did these naive depositors put their life savings into bcci rather than the nasty interest motivated western bank down the street could it be that they believed an islamically owned and operated bank couldn t possibly cheat them so please don t try to con us into thinking that it will all work out right next time jon
alt.atheism	re morality was re political atheists in article ql sninn vm gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes so you are saying that it isn t possible for an instinctive act to be moral one i like to think that many things are possible explain to me how instinctive acts can be moral acts and i am happy to listen for example if it were instinctive not to murder then not murdering would have no moral significance since there would be nothing voluntary about it that is in order for an act to be an act of morality the person must consider the immoral action but then disregard it weaker than that there must be the possibility that the organism it s not just people we are talking about can consider alternatives so only intelligent beings can be moral even if the bahavior of other beings mimics theirs you are starting to get the point mimicry is not necessarily the same as the action being imitated a parrot saying pretty polly isn t necessarily commenting on the pulchritude of polly and how much emphasis do you place on intelligence see above animals of the same species could kill each other arbitarily but they don t they do i and other posters have given you many examples of exactly this but you seem to have a very short memory are you trying to say that this isn t an act of morality because most animals aren t intelligent enough to think like we do i m saying there must be the possibility that the organism it s not just people we are talking about can consider alternatives it s right there in the posting you are replying to jon
alt.atheism	re moraltiy was re political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes what if i act morally for no particular reason then am i moral what if morality is instinctive as in most animals saying that morality is instinctive in animals is an attempt to assume your conclusion which conclusion you conclusion correct me if i err that the behaviour which is instinctive in animals is a natural moral system see we are disagreeing on the definition of moral here earlier you said that it must be a conscious act by your definition no instinctive behavior pattern could be an act of morality you are trying to apply human terms to non humans i think that even if someone is not conscious of an alternative this does not prevent his behavior from being moral you don t think that morality is a behavior pattern what is human morality a moral action is one that is consistent with a given pattern that is we enforce a certain behavior as moral you keep getting this backwards you are trying to show that the behaviour pattern is a morality whether morality is a behavior pattern is irrelevant since there can be behavior pattern for example the motions of the planets that most all people would not call a morality i try to show it but by your definition it can t be shown and morality can be thought of a large class of princples it could be defined in terms of many things the laws of physics if you wish however it seems silly to talk of a moral planet because it obeys the laws of phyics it is less silly to talk about animals as they have at least some free will keith
alt.atheism	re cruel was re political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes this whole thread started because of a discussion about whether or not the death penalty constituted cruel punishment which is forbidden by the us constitution yes but they didn t say what they meant by cruel which is why a you have the supreme court and b it makes no sense to refer to the constitution which is quite silent on the meaning of the word cruel they spent quite a bit of time on the wording of the constitution they picked words whose meanings implied the intent we have already looked in the dictionary to define the word isn t this sufficient oh but we were discussing the death penalty and that discussion resulted from the one about murder which resulted from an intial discussion about objective morality so this is already three times removed from the morality discussion actually we were discussing the mening of the word cruel and the us constitution says nothing about that but we were discussing it in relation to the death penalty and the constitution need not define each of the words within anyone who doesn t know what cruel is can look in the dictionary and we did keith
alt.atheism	re political atheists kcochran nyx cs du edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes no that s just what you thought the theory meant while all humans are generally capable of overpowering their instincts it does not follow that those who do this often are necessarily more intelligent ok so why aren t animals generally capable of overpowering their instincts good question i m sure some biologist could answer better than i but animals brains are just set up differently animals can be trained but if they re instincts serve them well there is no reason to contradict them keith
alt.atheism	re morality was re political atheists in article ql inn a gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes i don t expect the lion to know or not know anything of the kind in fact i don t have any evidence that lions ever consider such issues and that of course is why i don t think you can assign moral significance to the instinctive behaviour of lions what i ve been saying is that moral behavior is likely the null behavior that is it doesn t take much work to be moral but it certainly does to be immoral in some cases that s the craziest thing i ever heard are you serious it doesn t take much work to be moral also i ve said that morality is a remnant of evolution really and that s why people discuss morality on a daily basis because it s a kind of evolutionary hangover like your little toe our moral system is based on concepts well practiced in the animal kingdom this must be some novel use of the phrase based on with which i am not sufficiently familiar what do you mean by based on and what is the significance of it for your argument so you are basically saying that you think a moral is an undefinable term and that moral systems don t exist if we can t agree on a definition of these terms then how can we hope to discuss them no it s perfectly clear that i am saying that i know what a moral is in my system but that i can t speak for other people but this doesn t get us anywhere your particular beliefs are irrelevant unless you can share them or discuss them well we can what would you like to know about my particular moral beliefs if you raise a topic i ve never considered i ll be quite happy to invent a moral belief out of thin air jon
alt.atheism	re pompous ass in article ql jiinn df gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee writes look i m not the one that made those nazi comparisons other people compared what the religious people are doing now to nazi germany they have said that it started out with little things but no one really knew about any of these little things strangely enough and grew to bigger things they said that the motto is but one of the little things you just contradicted yourself the motto is one of those little things that nobody has bothered mentiopning to you huh the little things above were in reference to germany clearly people said that there were similar things in germany but no one could name any they said that these were things that everyone should know and that they weren t going to waste their time repeating them sounds to me like no one knew either i looked in some books but to no avail that s not true i gave you two examples one was the rather pevasive anti semitism in german christianity well before hitler arrived the other was the system of social ranks that were used in imperail germany and austria to distinguish jews from the rest of the population neither of these were very terrible in themselves but both helped to set a psychology in which the gradual disenfranchisement of jews was made easier jon
alt.atheism	re thoughts on christians excerpts from netnews alt atheism apr re thoughts on christians by dave fuller portal hq vi i m sick of religious types being pampered looked out for and worst of all respected more than atheists there must be an end in sight i think it d help if we got a couple good atheists or even some good steadfast agnostics in some high political offices when was the last time we had an openly atheist president have we ever i don t actually know these aren t rhetorical questions how bout some supreme court justices one thing that really ticked me off a while ago was an ad for a news program on a local station the promo said something like who are these cults and why do they prey on the young ahem ever hear of baptism at birth if that isn t preying on the young i don t know what is i used to be ack barf a catholic and was even confirmed shortly thereafter i decided it was a load of bs my mom who really insisted that i continue to go to church felt it was her duty to bring me up as a believer that was one of the more presumptuous things i ve heard in my life i suggested we go talk to the priest and she agreed the priest was amazingly cool about it he basically said that if i didn t believe it there was no good in forcing it on me actually i guess he wasn t amazingly cool about it his response is what you d hope for indeed expect from a human being i s pose i just didn t expect it i find it absurd that religion exists yet i can also see its usefulness to people facing up to the fact that you re just going to be worm food in a few decades and that there isn t some cosmic purpose to humanity and the universe can be pretty difficult for some people having a readily available pre digested solution to this is pretty attractive if you re either a gullible enough b willing to suspend your reasoning abilities for the piece of mind or c have had the stuff rammed down your throat for as long as you can remember religion in general provides a nice patch for some human weaknesses organized religion provides a nice way to keep a population under control blech chris chris leger sophomore carnegie mellon computer engineering remember if you don t like what somebody is saying you can always ignore them
alt.atheism	it s all mary s fault you know it just occurred to me today that this whole christian thing can be blamed solely on mary so she s married to joseph she gets knocked up what do you think ol joe will do if he finds she s been getting around so mary comes up with this ridiculous story about god making her pregnant actually it can t be all that ridiculous considering the number of people that believe it anyway she never tells anyone the truth and even tells poor little jesus that he s hot shit the son of god everyone else tells him this too since they ve bought mary s story so what does mary actually turn out to be an adultress and a liar and the cause of mankind s greatest folly just my recently minted two cents chris chris leger sophomore carnegie mellon computer engineering remember if you don t like what somebody is saying you can always ignore them
alt.atheism	re rawlins debunks creationism in article apr rambo atlanta dg com wpr atlanta dg com bill rawlins wrote we are talking about origins not merely science science cannot explain origins for a person to exclude anything but science from the issue of origins is to say that there is no higher truth than science this is a false premise says who other than a hear say god by the way i enjoy science you sure don t understand it it is truly a wonder observing god s creation macroevolution is a mixture of percent science and percent religion guaranteed within three percent error bill i hereby award you the golden shovel award for the biggist pile of bullshit i ve seen in a whils i m afraid there s not a bit of religion in macroevolution and you ve made a rather grand statement that science can not explain origins to a large extent it already has bill rawlins wpr atlanta dg com peter w walker yu shall i tell you what knowledge is when dept of space physics you know a thing say that you know it when and astronomy you do not know a thing admit you do not know rice university it this is knowledge houston tx k ung fu tzu
alt.atheism	re some thoughts bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes first i want to start right out and say that i m a christian well this is alt atheism i hope you arent here to try to convert anyone it makes sense to be one many would disagree the book says that jesus was either a liar or he was crazy a modern day koresh or he was actually who he said he was well you shouldn t give any particular book too much weight actually i don t think that any of these statements is correct it is more likely that most of jesus fame was attributed to him after his death by those who had some strong motives some other things to note he fulfilled loads of prophecies in the psalms isaiah and elsewhere in hrs alone what s a prophecy and what s so significant about them i don t think most people understand what a christian is i think we understand it is certainly not what i see a lot in churches rather i think it should be a way of life and a total sacrafice of everything for god s sake well sell your computer and donate you life to your religion now don t waste any time keith
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article qkq t n horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes i ll take a wild guess and say freedom is objectively valuable i base this on the assumption that if everyone in the world were deprived utterly of their freedom so that their every act was contrary to their volition almost all would want to complain therefore i take it that to assert or believe that freedom is not very valuable when almost everyone can see that it is is every bit as absurd as to assert it is not raining on a rainy day i take this to be a candidate for an objective value and it it is a necessary condition for objective morality that objective values such as this exist you have only shown that a vast majority if not all would agree to this however there is nothing against a subjective majority in any event i must challenge your assertion i know many societies heck many us citizens willing to trade freedom for security whatever promises that have been made can than be broken john laws a man without the honor to keep his given word
alt.atheism	re islamic authority over women snm ultb isc rit edu s n mozumder writes in article apr wam umd edu west next wam umd edu writes and belief causes far more horrors crusades the emasculation and internment of native americans the killing of various tribes in south america the inquisition the counter reformation and the wars that followed the salem witch trials the european witch hunts the holy wars of the middle east the colonization destruction of africa the wars between christianity and islam post crusade the genocide biblical of the canaanites and philistines aryian invasion of india the attempted genocide of jews by nazi germany the current missionary assaults on tribes in africa i think all the horrors you mentioned are due to lack of people following religion d by lack of people following religion i also include fanatics people that don t know what they are following d so how do you know that you were right why are you trying to shove down my throat that religion causes horrors it really covers yourself something false to save yourself peace bobby mozumder i just thought of another one in the bible so it s definately not because of lack of religion the book of esther which i read the other day for other reasons describes the origin of pur im a jewish celbration of joy and peace the long and short of the story is that people were killed when people were tripping over all of the peacefull solutions lying about you couldn t swing a sacred cow without slammin into a nice peaceful solution course joshua and the jawbone of an ass spring to mind i agree with bobby this far religion as it is used to kill large numbers of people is usually not used in the form or manner that it was originally intended for that doesn t reduce the number of deaths directly caused by religion it is just a minor observation of the fact that there is almost nothing pure in the universe the very act of honestly attempting to find true meaning in religious teaching has many times inspired hatred and led to war many people have been led by religious leaders more involved in their own stomache contentsthan in any absolute truth and have therefore been driven to kill by their leaders the point is that there are many things involved in religion that often lead to war whether these things are a part of religion an unpleasant side effect or as bobby would have it the result of people switching between religion and atheism spontaneously the results are the same religious groups have long been involved in the majority of the bloodiest parts of man s history atheists on the other hand preen preen are typically not an ideological social caste nor are they driven to organize and spread their beliefs the overuse of nazism and stalinism just show how true this is two groups with very clear and specific ideologies using religious persecution to further their means anyone who cannot see the obvious namely that these were groups founded for reasons entirely their own who used religious persecution not because of any belief system but because it made them more powerfull is trying too hard basically bobby uses these examples because there are so few wars that were not specifically fought over religion that he does not have many choices well i m off to key west where the only flames are heating the bottom of little silver butter dishes ciao chris blask
alt.atheism	re objective morality was re political atheists in article ql utinn sg gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes i want to know how this omniscient being is going to perform the feat of definitely terming actions right or wrong if you were omniscient you d know who exactly did what and with what purpose in mind then with a particular goal in mind you sould be able to methodically judge whether or not this action was in accordance with the general goal but now you are contradicting yourself in a pretty massive way and i don t think you ve even noticed in another part of this thread you ve been telling us that the goal of a natural morality is what animals do to survive but suppose that your omniscient being told you that the long term survival of humanity requires us to exterminate some other species either terrestrial or alien does that make it moral to do so jon
alt.atheism	re pompous ass in article ql pinn ef gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider says andrew newell tan psuvm psu edu writes sure they may fall back on other things but this is one they should not have available to use it is worse than others the national anthem should it be changed too god bless america the list goes on worse maybe not but it is definately a violation of the rules the us govt supposedly follows maybe the others should be changed to but i m not personally as concerned about the anthem since i don t come across it in daily nearly unavoidable routines every christian and i d be tempted to rub that motto in the face of christians when debunking their standard motto slinging gets boring then you d be no better than the people you despise i don t despise the people just their opinions i meant when chatting with the ones who refuse to listen to any idea other than their own then it just becomes an exercise for amusement for the motto to be legitimate it would have to read in god gods or godlessness we trust would you approve of such a motto no not unless the only way to get rid of the current one was to change it to such as that
alt.atheism	re moraltiy was re political atheists in article ql ekinn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes what if i act morally for no particular reason then am i moral what if morality is instinctive as in most animals saying that morality is instinctive in animals is an attempt to assume your conclusion which conclusion you conclusion correct me if i err that the behaviour which is instinctive in animals is a natural moral system see we are disagreeing on the definition of moral here earlier you said that it must be a conscious act by your definition no instinctive behavior pattern could be an act of morality you are trying to apply human terms to non humans pardon me i am trying to apply human terms to non humans i think there must be some confusion here i m the guy who is saying that if animal behaviour is instinctive then it does not have any moral sugnificance how does refusing to apply human terms to animals get turned into applying human terms i think that even if someone is not conscious of an alternative this does not prevent his behavior from being moral i m sure you do think this if you say so how about trying to convince me you don t think that morality is a behavior pattern what is human morality a moral action is one that is consistent with a given pattern that is we enforce a certain behavior as moral you keep getting this backwards you are trying to show that the behaviour pattern is a morality whether morality is a behavior pattern is irrelevant since there can be behavior pattern for example the motions of the planets that most all people would not call a morality i try to show it but by your definition it can t be shown i ve offered four times i think to accept your definition if you allow me to ascribe moral significence to the orbital motion of the planets and morality can be thought of a large class of princples it could be defined in terms of many things the laws of physics if you wish however it seems silly to talk of a moral planet because it obeys the laws of phyics it is less silly to talk about animals as they have at least some free will ah the law of silly and less silly what mr livesey finds intuitive is silly but what mr schneider finds intuitive is less silly now that s a devastating argument isn t it jon
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes in article bcc b ics uci edu bvickers ics uci edu brett j vickers writes in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes well seeing as you are not muslim the sort of fatwa issued by khomeini would not be relevant to you i can understand your fear of persecution and i share it even more than you being muslim however rushdie s behavior was not completely excusable as much as i considered some of the so called islam related dialogue here a total waste of time i somehow can t restrain myself in this instance so gregg try this p s t i come to my senses and accept the all knowing wisdom and power of the quran and allah not only that but allah himself drops by to congratulate me on my wise choice allah rolls a few bones and we get down then allah gets out the crisco bends over and invites me to take a spin around the block wow p s t i realize that maybe allah is looking for more of a commitment than i m ready for so i say man i ve got some programming to do gotta go i ll call you p s t thinking it over i renounce islam btw gregg allah said he still thinks of you jim
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie in article bafa d i dbstu rz tu bs de i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau writes yes but fortunately religions have been replaced by systems that value human rights higher secular laws seem to value criminal life more than the victims life islam places the rights of society and every member in it above the rights of the individual this is what i call true human rights by the way do you actually support the claim of precedence of islamic law in case you do what about the laws of other religions as a muslim living in a non muslim land i am bound by the laws of the land i live in but i do not disregard islamic law it still remains a part of my life if the laws of a land conflict with my religion to such an extent that i am prevented from being allowed to practise my religion then i must leave the land so in a way islamic law does take precendence over secular law but we are instructed to follow the laws of the land that we live in too in an islamic state one ruled by a khaliphate religions other than islam are allowed to rule by their own religious laws provided they don t affect the genral population and don t come into direct conflict with state laws dhimmis non muslim population are exempt from most islamic laws on religion such as fighting in a jihad giving zakat alms giving etc but are given the benefit of these two acts such as military protection and if they are poor they will receive zakat if not what has it got to do with rushdie and has anyone reliable information if he hadn t left islam according to islamic law or is the burden of proof on him benedikt after the fatwa didn t rushdie re affirm his faith in islam didn t he go thru a very public conversion to islam if so he is binding himself to islamic laws he has to publicly renounce in his belief in islam so the burden is on him mas c i t i z e n c a d e n c e d e s i g n s y s t e m s inc masud ahmed khan mas cadence com all my opinions
alt.atheism	re slavery was re why is sex only allowed in marriage in article apr bradford ac uk l newnham bradford ac uk leonard newnham writes oh this all sounds so nice everyone helping each other and always smiling and fluffy bunnies everywhere wake up people are just not like that it seems evident from history that no society has succeeded when it had to rely upon the goodwill and unselfishness of the people isn t it obvious from places like iran that even if there are only a few greedy people in society then they are going to be attracted to positions of power sounds like a recipe for disaster leonard e mail l newnham bradford ac uk leonard i ll give you an example of this my father recently bought a business the business price was pounds and my father approached the people in the community for help he raised pounds in interest free loans from friends and relatives and muslims he knew had cash and the rest he got a business loan after paying off the muslim lenders many of them helped him with further loans to help him clear the bank debt and save him from further intrest this is an example of a muslim community helping one another why did they help because of their common identity as muslims in turn my father has helped with people buying houses to minimise the amount of intrest they pay and in some cases buy houses intrest free with the help of those more fortunate in the community the fact is leonard it does work without a fluffy bunny in sight ithat is the beauty of islam mas c i t i z e n c a d e n c e d e s i g n s y s t e m s inc masud ahmed khan mas cadence com all my opinions
alt.atheism	re pompous ass andrew newell tan psuvm psu edu writes sure they may fall back on other things but this is one they should not have available to use it is worse than others worse maybe not but it is definately a violation of the rules the us govt supposedly follows oh for the motto to be legitimate it would have to read in god gods or godlessness we trust would you approve of such a motto no not unless the only way to get rid of the current one was to change it to such as that what is wrong with this motto now if you wouldn t approve of even that one i am beginning to think that you just have something against mottos in general what do you think of e plurbis unum keith
alt.atheism	re pompous ass livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes the little things above were in reference to germany clearly people said that there were similar things in germany but no one could name any that s not true i gave you two examples one was the rather pevasive anti semitism in german christianity well before hitler arrived the other was the system of social ranks that were used in imperail germany and austria to distinguish jews from the rest of the population these don t seem like little things to me at least they are orders worse than the motto do you think that the motto is a little thing that will lead to worse things keith
alt.atheism	re morality was re political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes explain to me how instinctive acts can be moral acts and i am happy to listen for example if it were instinctive not to murder then not murdering would have no moral significance since there would be nothing voluntary about it see there you go again saying that a moral act is only significant if it is voluntary why do you think this and anyway humans have the ability to disregard some of their instincts so only intelligent beings can be moral even if the bahavior of other beings mimics theirs you are starting to get the point mimicry is not necessarily the same as the action being imitated a parrot saying pretty polly isn t necessarily commenting on the pulchritude of polly you are attaching too many things to the term moral i think let s try this is it good that animals of the same species don t kill each other or do you think this is right or do you think that animals are machines and that nothing they do is either right nor wrong animals of the same species could kill each other arbitarily but they don t they do i and other posters have given you many examples of exactly this but you seem to have a very short memory those weren t arbitrary killings they were slayings related to some sort of mating ritual or whatnot are you trying to say that this isn t an act of morality because most animals aren t intelligent enough to think like we do i m saying there must be the possibility that the organism it s not just people we are talking about can consider alternatives it s right there in the posting you are replying to yes it was but i still don t understand your distinctions what do you mean by consider can a small child be moral how about a gorilla a dolphin a platypus where is the line drawn does the being need to be self aware what do you call the mechanism which seems to prevent animals of the same species from arbitrarily killing each other don t you find the fact that they don t at all significant keith
alt.atheism	re objective morality was re political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in another part of this thread you ve been telling us that the goal of a natural morality is what animals do to survive that s right humans have gone somewhat beyond this though perhaps our goal is one of self actualization but suppose that your omniscient being told you that the long term survival of humanity requires us to exterminate some other species either terrestrial or alien now you are letting an omniscient being give information to me this was not part of the original premise does that make it moral to do so which type of morality are you talking about in a natural sense it is not at all immoral to harm another species as long as it doesn t adversely affect your own i guess keith
alt.atheism	re new member jcopelan nyx cs du edu the one and only writes welcome i am the official keeper of the list of nicknames that people are known by on alt atheism didn t know we had such a list did you your have been awarded the nickname of buckminster so the next time you post an article sign with your nickname like so dave buckminster fuller thanks again jim humor means never having to say you re sorry copeland of course the list has to agree with the nickname laws laid down by the gipu almost years ago you know the of them that were written on the iron tablets that melted once and had to be reinscribed since i am a prophet of the gipu i decree that you should post the whole list of nicknames for the frequent posters here nanci
alt.atheism	re political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes well chimps must have some system they live in social groups as we do so they must have some laws dictating undesired behavior so why must they have such laws the quotation marks should enclose laws not must if there were no such rules even instinctive ones or unwritten ones etc then surely some sort of random chance would lead a chimp society into chaos keith
alt.atheism	re pompous ass in article qlef inn dn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes the little things above were in reference to germany clearly people said that there were similar things in germany but no one could name any that s not true i gave you two examples one was the rather pevasive anti semitism in german christianity well before hitler arrived the other was the system of social ranks that were used in imperail germany and austria to distinguish jews from the rest of the population these don t seem like little things to me at least they are orders worse than the motto do you think that the motto is a little thing that will lead to worse things you don t think these are little things because with twenty twenty hindsight you know what they led to jon
alt.atheism	re objective morality was re political atheists in article qlf ginn sn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in another part of this thread you ve been telling us that the goal of a natural morality is what animals do to survive that s right humans have gone somewhat beyond this though perhaps our goal is one of self actualization humans have gone somewhat beyond what exactly in one thread you re telling us that natural morality is what animals do to survive and in this thread you are claiming that an omniscient being can definitely say what is right and what is wrong so what does this omniscient being use for a criterion the long term survival of the human species or what how does omniscient map into definitely being able to assign right and wrong to actions but suppose that your omniscient being told you that the long term survival of humanity requires us to exterminate some other species either terrestrial or alien now you are letting an omniscient being give information to me this was not part of the original premise well your original premises have a habit of changing over time so perhaps you d like to review it for us and tell us what the difference is between an omniscient being be able to assign right and wrong to actions and telling us the result is does that make it moral to do so which type of morality are you talking about in a natural sense it is not at all immoral to harm another species as long as it doesn t adversely affect your own i guess i m talking about the morality introduced by you which was going to be implemented by this omniscient being that can definitely assign right and wrong to actions you tell us what type of morality that is jon
alt.atheism	re slavery was re why is sex only allowed in marriage in article apr cadence com mas cadence com masud khan writes leonard i ll give you an example of this my father recently bought a business the business price was pounds and my father approached the people in the community for help he raised pounds in interest free loans from friends and relatives and muslims he knew had cash and the rest he got a business loan after paying off the muslim lenders many of them helped him with further loans to help him clear the bank debt and save him from further intrest this is an example of a muslim community helping one another why did they help because of their common identity as muslims in turn my father has helped with people buying houses to minimise the amount of intrest they pay and in some cases buy houses intrest free with the help of those more fortunate in the community sorry wrong this is how banks got started in the first place sooner or later your father and his pals will lend money to someone who eventually goes broke and then they will realise that they havn t been managing risk very well then they will ask themselves what it is that they need to quantify risk and to persuade borrowers not to take on greater loans than they can carry and since they don t all want the worry of doing the calculations and handling the money some of them will specialise in that then they ll reinvent interest but like good muslims they ll call it something else the fact is leonard it does work without a fluffy bunny in sight ithat is the beauty of islam riiiight that s why john major opened a new government department a couple of months ago to help to promote minority business because they can do it all themselves by lending one another cups of sugar jon
alt.atheism	re morality was re political atheists in article qlettinn oi gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes explain to me how instinctive acts can be moral acts and i am happy to listen for example if it were instinctive not to murder then not murdering would have no moral significance since there would be nothing voluntary about it see there you go again saying that a moral act is only significant if it is voluntary why do you think this if you force me to do something am i morally responsible for it and anyway humans have the ability to disregard some of their instincts well make up your mind is it to be instinctive not to murder or not so only intelligent beings can be moral even if the bahavior of other beings mimics theirs you are starting to get the point mimicry is not necessarily the same as the action being imitated a parrot saying pretty polly isn t necessarily commenting on the pulchritude of polly you are attaching too many things to the term moral i think let s try this is it good that animals of the same species don t kill each other or do you think this is right it s not even correct animals of the same species do kill one another or do you think that animals are machines and that nothing they do is either right nor wrong sigh i wonder how many times we have been round this loop i think that instinctive bahaviour has no moral significance i am quite prepared to believe that higher animals such as primates have the beginnings of a moral sense since they seem to exhibit self awareness animals of the same species could kill each other arbitarily but they don t they do i and other posters have given you many examples of exactly this but you seem to have a very short memory those weren t arbitrary killings they were slayings related to some sort of mating ritual or whatnot so what are you trying to say that some killing in animals has a moral significance and some does not is this your natural morality are you trying to say that this isn t an act of morality because most animals aren t intelligent enough to think like we do i m saying there must be the possibility that the organism it s not just people we are talking about can consider alternatives it s right there in the posting you are replying to yes it was but i still don t understand your distinctions what do you mean by consider can a small child be moral how about a gorilla a dolphin a platypus where is the line drawn does the being need to be self aware are you blind what do you think that this sentence means there must be the possibility that the organism it s not just people we are talking about can consider alternatives what would that imply what do you call the mechanism which seems to prevent animals of the same species from arbitrarily killing each other don t you find the fact that they don t at all significant i find the fact that they do to be significant jon
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article c jxru t news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes what do you base your belief on atheism on your knowledge and reasoning couldn t that be wrong actually my atheism is based on ignorance ignorance of the existence of any god don t fall into the atheists don t believe because of their pride mistake bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes in article qi l jkj fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes i hope an islamic bank is something other than bcci which ripped off so many small depositors among the muslim community in the uk and elsewhere grow up childish propagandist gosh gregg i m pretty good a reading between the lines but you ve given me precious little to work with in this refutation could you maybe flesh it out just a bit or did i miss the full grandeur of it s content by virtue of my blinding atheism bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re morality was re political atheists in article ql inn a gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes what i ve been saying is that moral behavior is likely the null behavior do i smell sig material here bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re cruel was re political atheists in article ql mdinn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes but we were discussing it in relation to the death penalty and the constitution need not define each of the words within anyone who doesn t know what cruel is can look in the dictionary and we did or with no dictionary available they could gain first hand knowledge by suffering through one of your posts bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re pompous ass in article ql jiinn df gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes the little things above were in reference to germany clearly people said that there were similar things in germany but no one could name any they said that these were things that everyone should know and that they weren t going to waste their time repeating them sounds to me like no one knew either i looked in some books but to no avail if the anne frank exhibit makes it to your small little world take an afternoon to go see it bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re thoughts on christians in article ofnwyg wb voa andrew cmu edu pl u andrew cmu edu patrick c leger writes ever hear of baptism at birth if that isn t preying on the young i don t know what is no that s praying on the young preying on the young comes later when the bright eyed little altar boy finds out what the priest really wears under that chasible bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re political atheists in article qlfd inn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes well chimps must have some system they live in social groups as we do so they must have some laws dictating undesired behavior so why must they have such laws the quotation marks should enclose laws not must oh your highness and exactly why should the quotation marks enclose laws not must in case you didn t notice it s the function of the must that i wish to ironicise if there were no such rules even instinctive ones or unwritten ones etc then surely some sort of random chance would lead a chimp society into chaos perhaps the chimps that failed to evolve cooperative behaviour died out and we are left with the ones that did evolve such behaviour entirely by chance are you going to proclaim a natural morality every time an organism evolves cooperative behaviour what about the natural morality of bee dance jon
alt.atheism	re objective morality was re political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes humans have gone somewhat beyond what exactly in one thread you re telling us that natural morality is what animals do to survive and in this thread you are claiming that an omniscient being can definitely say what is right and what is wrong so what does this omniscient being use for a criterion the long term survival of the human species or what well that s the question isn t it the goals are probably not all that obvious we can set up a few goals like happiness and liberty and the golden rule etc but these goals aren t inherent they have to be defined before an objective system is possible how does omniscient map into definitely being able to assign right and wrong to actions it is not too difficult one you have goals in mind and absolute knoweldge of everyone s intent etc now you are letting an omniscient being give information to me this was not part of the original premise well your original premises have a habit of changing over time so perhaps you d like to review it for us and tell us what the difference is between an omniscient being be able to assign right and wrong to actions and telling us the result is omniscience is fine as long as information is not given away isn t this the resolution of the free will problem an interactive omniscient being changes the situation which type of morality are you talking about in a natural sense it is not at all immoral to harm another species as long as it doesn t adversely affect your own i guess i m talking about the morality introduced by you which was going to be implemented by this omniscient being that can definitely assign right and wrong to actions you tell us what type of morality that is well i was speaking about an objective system in general i didn t mention a specific goal which would be necessary to determine the morality of an action keith
alt.atheism	islam is caused by believing was re genocide is caused by theism in article apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu s n mozumder writes i m only saying that anything can happen under atheism being a beleiver a knowledgeable one in religion only good can happen this is becoming a tiresome statement coming from you it is a definition not an assertion islam is good belief in islam is good therefore being a believer in islam can produce only good because islam is good blah blah blah that s about as circular as it gets and equally meaningless to say that something produces only good because it is only good that it produces is nothing more than an unapplied definition and all you re application is saying that it s true if you really believe it s true that s silly conversely you say off handedly that anything can happen under atheism again just an offshoot of believe it and it becomes true don t believe it and it doesn t like other religions i m aquainted with islam teaches exclusion and caste and suggests harsh penalties for behaviors that have no logical call for punishment certain limits on speech and sex for example to me this is not good i see much pain and suffering without any justification except for the waving of the hand of some inaccessible god by the by you toss around the word knowledgable a bit carelessly for what is a knowledgeable believer except a contradiction of terms i infer that you mean believer in terms of having faith and if you need knowledge to believe then faith has nothing to do with it does it jim halat
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie re an anecdote about islam in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes he d have to be precise about is rejection of god and his leaving islam one is perfectly free to be muslim and to doubt and question the existence of god so long as one does not reject god i am sure that rushdie has be now made his atheism clear in front of a sufficient number of proper witnesses the question in regard to the legal issue is his status at the time the crime was committed i d have to say that i have a problem with any organization religious or not where the idea that simple speech such as this is the basis for a crime jim halat
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie re an anecdote about islam in article ursa bear com halat pooh bears jim halat writes in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes he d have to be precise about is rejection of god and his leaving islam one is perfectly free to be muslim and to doubt and question the existence of god so long as one does not reject god i am sure that rushdie has be now made his atheism clear in front of a sufficient number of proper witnesses the question in regard to the legal issue is his status at the time the crime was committed i ll also add that it is impossible to actually tell when one rejects god therefore you choose to punish only those who talk about it jim halat
alt.atheism	re a silly question on x tianity in article apr daffy cs wisc edu mccullou snake cs wisc edu mark mccullough writes sorry to insult your homestate but coming from where i do wisconsin is very backwards i was never able to understand that people actually held such bigoted and backwards views until i came here i have never been to wisconsin though i have been to neighbor minnesota being a child of the middle atlantic ny nj pa i found that there were few states in the provences that stood out in this youngster s mind california texas and florida to name the most obvious three however both minnesota and wisconsin stuck out solely on the basis of their politics both have always translated to extremely liberal and progressive states and my recent trip to minnestoa last summer served to support that state s reputation my guess is that wisconsin is probably the same at least that was the impression the people of minnesota left with me about their neighbors the only question in my head about wisconsin though is whether or not there is a cause effect relationship between cheese and serial killers jim halat
alt.atheism	re the nonexistance of atheists date apr edt from kmagnacca eagle wesleyan edu in article bskendigc jcwx jzn netcom com bskendig netcom com brian kendig writes s c a quotes deleted it really looks like these people have no idea at all of what it means to be atheist there are more bobby mozumder clones in the world than i thought well that explains some things i posted on soc religion islam with an attached quote by bobby to the effect that all atheists are lying evil scum and asked if it was a commonly held idea among muslims i got no response asking about the unknown i guess you should have tried one of the soc culture groups in the middle east or south asia area they are a little more open than the islam channel i think someone defined atheists as polytheists cuz they say we think the world created itself or something like that so each particle is a god which created the other gods the soc culture african is also nice for some contrasting viewpoints on the benevolence of religion especially when sudan is mentioned
alt.atheism	keith is a relativist in article pigidinnsot gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes not so if you are thrown into a cage with a tiger and get mauled do you blame the tiger aha he admits it he is a moral relativist keith if you start wafffling on about how it is different for a human to maul someone thrown into it s cage so to speak you d better start posting tome decent evidence or retract your i think there is an absolute morality blurb a few weeks ago keith the desert brat john j mcvey elc eltnc eng whyalla uni s australia f levels unisa edu au t s a k c darwin o for replies mail to whjjm wh whyalla unisa edu au disclaimer unisa hates my opinions bb bb it doesn t make a rainbow any less beautiful that we god s name is smack understand the refractive mechanisms that chance to for some produce it jim perry perry dsinc com alice in chains
alt.atheism	re some thoughts in article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy r healy writes i hope you re not going to flame him please give him the same coutesy you ve given me tammy if a person gives a well balanced reasoned argument tammy then all are happy to discuss it with him if he makes astounding claims which are not backed up with any evidence then he must be expected to substantiate them if the original author had said that everything was his own opinion and not supportable then people would have simply ignored him he did not he claimed many things and his logic was seriously flawed his argument was for christianity in an effort to try to convince atheists like myself to believe him and his message i for one will not take things as read if you told me that pink fluffy elephants did the dance of the sugar plum fairy on the dark side of jupiter then i would demand evidence adda adda wainwright does dim atal y llanw o eczcaw mips nott ac uk o mae sig ma ar werth
alt.atheism	re objective values v scientific accuracy was re after years can we say that christian morality is in article c j jzv dcs ed ac uk tk dcs ed ac uk tommy kelly wrote in article qjahh mrs horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes science the real world has its basis in values not the other way round as you would wish it you must be using values to mean something different from the way i see it used normally and you are certainly using science like that if you equate it to the real world science is the recognition of patterns in our perceptions of the universe and the making of qualitative and quantitative predictions concerning those perceptions science is the process of modeling the real world based on commonly agreed interpretations of our observations perceptions it has nothing to do with values as far as i can see values are well they are what i value they are what i would have rather than not have what i would experience rather than not and so on values can also refer to meaning for example in computer science the value of is true and is false science is based on commonly agreed values interpretation of observations although science can result in a reinterpretation of these values objective values are a set of values which the proposer believes are applicable to everyone the values underlaying science are not objective since they have never been fully agreed and the change with time the values of newtonian physic are certainly different to those of quantum mechanics steve lang slang sling slink slick slack shack shank thank think thick
alt.atheism	victims of various good fight s in article tekig pen tek com naren tekig pen tek com naren bala writes list of killings in the name of religion iran iraq war civil war in sudan riots in india pakistan in massacares in bangladesh in inquistions in america in s x million x crusades massacre of jews in wwii million massacre of other inferior races in wwii million communist purges million socialism is more or less a religion catholics v protestants quite a few i d imagine recent goings on in bombay iodia sp area disease introduced to brazilian oher s am tribes x million naren the desert brat john j mcvey elc eltnc eng whyalla uni s australia f levels unisa edu au t s a k c darwin o for replies mail to whjjm wh whyalla unisa edu au disclaimer unisa hates my opinions bb bb it doesn t make a rainbow any less beautiful that we god s name is smack understand the refractive mechanisms that chance to for some produce it jim perry perry dsinc com alice in chains
alt.atheism	re keith schneider stealth poster in article pa f innpit gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes but really are you threatened by the motto or by the people that use it every time somone writes something and says it is merely describing the norm it is infact re inforcing that norm upon those programmed not to think for themselves the motto is dangerous in itself it tells the world that every true american is god fearing and puts down those who do not fear gods it doesn t need anyone to make it dangerous it does a good job itself by just existing on your currency keith the desert brat john j mcvey elc eltnc eng whyalla uni s australia f levels unisa edu au t s a k c darwin o for replies mail to whjjm wh whyalla unisa edu au disclaimer unisa hates my opinions bb bb it doesn t make a rainbow any less beautiful that we god s name is smack understand the refractive mechanisms that chance to for some produce it jim perry perry dsinc com alice in chains
alt.atheism	re it s all mary s fault pl u andrew cmu edu patrick c leger writes you know it just occurred to me today that this whole christian thing can be blamed solely on mary so she s married to joseph she gets knocked up what do you think ol joe will do if he finds she s been getting around so mary comes up with this ridiculous story about god making her pregnant nice attempt chris verrry close you missed the conspiracy by step joseph knew who knocked her up he couldn t let it be known that somebody else got ol mary prego that wouldn t do well for his popularity in the local circles so what happened is that she was feeling guilty he was feeling embarrassed and they decided to improve both of their images on what could have otherwise been the downfall for both clever indeed come to think of it i have gained a new respect for the couple maybe joseph and mary should receive all of the praise being paid to jesus dave buckminster fuller how is that one o keeper of the nicknames
alt.atheism	re origins of the bible adda wainwright writes he stated that thousands of bibles were discovered at a certain point in time which were syllable perfect this therefore meant that there must have been one copy at a certain time the time quoted by my acquaintance was approximately years after the death of jesus this is as far as i know complete nonsense the codification of the bible as we have it now came very much later c wingate the peace of god it is no peace but strife closed in the sod mangoe cs umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace of god
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie i apologize for the long delay in getting a response to this posted i ve been working reduced hours the past couple of weeks because i had a son born the day after umar s article was posted btw i did respond within a couple of days but it turns out that a a coincidental news software rearrangement caused postings from this site to silently disappear rather than going out into the world this is a revision of that original response in article c q ct ra nrl navy mil khan itd itd nrl navy mil umar khan writes in article ps finnm u dsi dsinc com perry dsinc com jim perry writes only a functional illiterate with absolutely no conception of the nature of the novel could think such a thing this was in response to the claim that rushdie made false statements about the life of mohammed with the disclaimer fiction i know but where is the line between fact and fiction i stand by this distinction between fiction and false statements however it s not for his writing in the satanic verses but for what people have accepted as a propagandistic version of what is contained in that book i have yet to find one single muslim who has convinced me that they have read the book some have initially claimed to have done so but none has shown more knowledge of the book than a superficial newsweek story might impart and all have made factual misstatements about events in the book you keep saying things like this then you accuse people like me of making ad hominem arguments i repeat as i have said in previous postings on aa i have read tsv from cover to cover i had not seen that claim or i might have been less sweeping you have made what i consider factual misstatements about events in the book which i have raised in the past in the islam a clearer view thread as well as the root of the yet more rushdie re islamic law thread my statement was not that you had not read the book but that you had not convinced me that you inter alia had as i said before if you want to defend your position then produce evidence and respond to the evidence i have posted so far you have not of course my statement was not directly aimed at you but broadly at a number of muslim posters who have repeated propaganda about the book indicating that they haven t read it and narrowly at gregg jaeger who subsequently admitted that he hadn t in fact read the book vindicating my skepticism in at least that one case so far the only things i have to go on regarding your own case are a the statements you made concerning the book in the a clearer view posting which i have challenged not interpretation but statements of fact for instance rushdie depicts the women of the most respected family in all of islam as whores and b your claim which i had not seen before this that you have indeed read it cover to cover i am willing to try to resolve this down to a disagreement on critical interpretation but you ll have to support your end by responding to my criticism i have no doubt as to the ability of a particular muslim to go through this book with a highlighter finding passages to take personal offense at but you have upheld the view that tsv is intended as an attack on islam and upon muslims this view must be defended by more than mere assertion if you want anyone to take it seriously i am trying very hard to be amicable and rational and i appreciate it but welcome to the club i am defending my honest opinion that this book should not be construed as a calculated or otherwise insulting attack on islam and the parallel opinion that most of the criticism of the book i have seen is baseless propaganda i have supported my statements and critical interpretationa with in context quotes from the book and rushdie s essays which is more than my correspondents have done of course you are more than welcome to do so jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews nc these are my opinions for a nominal fee they can be yours
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics chris faehl writes many atheists do not mock the concept of a god they are shocked that so many theists have fallen to such a low level that they actually believe in a god you accuse all atheists of being part of a conspiracy again without evidence rule condescending to the population at large i e theists will not win many people to your faith anytime soon it only ruins your credibility fallacy atheism is a faith lo i hear the faq beckoning once again wonderful rule deleted you re correct you didn t say anything about a conspiracy correction hard atheism is a faith rule don t mix apples with oranges how can you say that the extermination by the mongols was worse than stalin khan conquered people unsympathetic to his cause that was atrocious but stalin killed millions of his own people who loved and worshipped him and his atheist state how can anyone be worse than that i will not explain this to you again stalin did nothing in the name of atheism whethe he was or was not an atheist is irrelevant get a grip man the stalin example was brought up not as an indictment of atheism but merely as another example of how people will kill others under any name that s fit for the occasion rule if you rely on evidence state it we re waiting as opposed to relying on a bunch of black ink on some crumbling old paper atheism has to prove nothing to you or anyone else it is the burden of dogmatic religious bullshit to provide their evidence which we might you be referring to and how long are you going to wait so hard atheism has nothing to prove then how does it justify that god does not exist i know there s the faq etc but guess what if those justifications were so compelling why aren t people flocking to hard atheism they re not and they won t i for one will discourage people from hard atheism by pointing out those very sources as reliable statements on hard atheism second what makes you think i m defending any given religion i m merely recognizing hard atheism for what it is a faith and yes by we i am referring to every reader of the post where is the evidence that the poster stated that he relied upon oh yes though i m not a theist i can say safely that by definition many theists are not arrogant since they boast about something outside themselves namely a god or gods so in principle it s hard to see how theists are necessarily arrogant because they say such and such is absolutely unalterably true because my dogma says it is true i am not prepared to issue blanket statements indicting all theists of arrogance as you are wont to do with atheists bzzt by virtue of your innocent little pronoun they you ve just issued a blanket statement at least i will apologize by qualifying my original statement with hard atheist in place of atheist would you call john the baptist arrogant who boasted of one greater than he that s what many christians do today how is that in itself arrogant i m not worthy only seriously misinformed with your sophisticated put down of they the theists your serious misinformation shines through bake timmons iii there s nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful in life than some good memory alyosha in brothers karamazov dostoevsky
alt.atheism	re islam and scientific predictions was re genocide is caused by atheism in bb c i dbstu rz tu bs de i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau writes in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes and it is he god almighty who created the night and the day and the sun and the earth all the celetial bodies swim along each in its rounded course holy quran hmm this agrees with the ptolemic system of the earth at the centre with the planets orbitting round it so copernicus and gallileo were wrong after all you haven t read very carefully if you look again you will see that it doesn t say anything about what is circling what anyway they are not moving in circles oops sorry my words not the words of the qur an nor is there any evidence that everything goes around in a rounded course in a general sense wishy washy statements are not scientific note that the celestial bodies in the above verse is an interpolation which is why it is in brackets it is the translator s incorrect imho interpretation here is maurice bucaille s translation he studied arabic for his research into the qur an and science of this verse god is the one who created the night the day the sun and the moon each is travelling in an orbit with its own motion qur an the positive aspect of this verse noted by dr maurice bucaille is that while geocentrism was the commonly accepted notion at the time and for a long time afterwards there is no notion of geocentrism in this verse or anywhere in the qur an fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
alt.atheism	re islam and scientific predictions was re genocide is caused by atheism in cindy apr solan solan unit no cindy solan solan unit no cynthia kandolf writes various quotes deleted in the interest of saving a little bit of bandwidth but i will copy the koran quote and it is he god almighty who created the night and the day and the sun and the earth all the celetial bodies swim along each in its rounded course holy quran as it has been pointed out this quote makes no claim about what orbits what the idea that something orbited something had been held as true for many years before the koran was written so the fact that it says something orbits something is hardly surprising insight my concern is with the word rounded there are two interpretations of this word it means in a circle this is wrong although many believed it to be true at the time the koran was written in other words it is not describing our neighborhood of the universe as it really exists but as it was thought to be at the time this has implications which i hope are obvious to everyone it means in a rounded shape which could include elipses the geometrical form which most nearly describes the orbits of the planets this is also not a great insight look at the shapes you see in nature very few of them even approach a square or rectangle those are human created shapes everything in nature is rounded to some degree even the flat earthers don t try to claim earth is a rectangle children who draw imaginary animals seldom give them rectangular bodies we seem to instinctively recognize that nature produces rounded shapes hence the assumption that the orbits of the planets would be round hardly takes divine inspiration it is good to remember that every translation is to some extent an interpretation so as you point out below one must really go back to the original arabic regarding the verses relevant to nature i prefer to use dr maurice bucaille s translations in his book the bible the qur an and science for in general his translations are more literal maurice bucaille translates the portion of the verse you are addressing as each one is travelling with an orbit in its own motion also note that the celestial bodies in the first translation quoted by you above is the translator s interpolation it is not existent in the original arabic which is why it is included in brackets perhaps someone who can read the original arabic can eliminate one of these interpretations at any rate neither one of them is exactly impressive you re right what the verses do contain isn t all that remarkable however dr bucaille a surgeon that s how he s a dr thinks it is significant that the above verse contains no geocentric ideas even though geocentrism was all the rage up until the th century or so and this goes for the rest of the qur an as well which has about verses or so regarding nature i think i remember reading once fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
alt.atheism	re societally acceptable behavior in article c qgm dl news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes merely a question for the basis of morality moral ethical behavior societally acceptable behavior i disagree with these what society thinks should be irrelevant what the individual decides is all that is important who is society i think this is fairly obvious how do they define what is acceptable generally by what they feel is right which is the most idiotic policy i can think of how do we keep from a whatever is legal is what is moral position by thinking for ourselves mac michael a cobb and i won t raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs champaign urbana bill clinton rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu with new taxes and spending cuts we ll still have billion dollar deficits
alt.atheism	re origins of the bible in article apr cs nott ac uk eczcaw mips nott ac uk a wainwright writes hi i have been having an argument about the origins of the bible lately with a theist acquaintance he stated that thousands of bibles were discovered at a certain point in time which were syllable perfect this therefore meant that there must have been one copy at a certain time the time quoted by my acquaintace was approximately years after the death of jesus hi adda most bible scholars agree that there was one copy of each book at a certain time the time when the author wrote it unfortunately like all works from this time period and earlier all that exists today are copies cutting all of the crap out of the way ie god wrote it could anyone answer the following how old is the oldest surviving copy of the new testament there are parts of books scraps really that date from around the mid second century a d there are some complete books letters etc from the middle third century the first complete collection of the new testament dates from the early th century a d throughout this period are writings of various early church fathers leaders who quoted various scriptures in their writings is there any truth in my acquaintance s statements if you mean that someone discovered thousands of bibles which were all perfect copies dating from the last part of the st century no if you mean that there are thousands of early manuscripts within the dates given above but not letter perfect and that the most probable text can be reconstructed from these documents and that the earliest original autographs now lost probably were written starting sometime shortly after a d then yes from who where did the bible originate from the original authors we call them matthew mark luke john peter paul james and one other not identified how long is a piece of string as long as you make it adda regards jim b
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics james hogan writes timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes jim hogan quips summary of jim s stuff jim i m afraid you ve missed the point thus i think you ll have to admit that atheists have a lot more up their sleeve than you might have suspected nah i will encourage people to learn about atheism to see how little atheists have up their sleeves whatever i might have suspected is actually quite meager if you want i ll send them your address to learn less about your faith faith yeah do you expect people to read the faq etc and actually accept hard atheism no you need a little leap of faith jimmy your logic runs out of steam fine but why do these people shoot themselves in the foot and mock the idea of a god i hope you understand now yes jim i do understand now thank you for providing some healthy sarcasm that would have dispelled any sympathies i would have had for your faith bake real glad you detected the sarcasm angle but am really bummin that i won t be getting any of your sympathy still if your inclined to have sympathy for somebody s faith you might try one of the religion newsgroups just be careful over there though make believe i m whispering in your ear here they re all delusional jim sorry i can t pity you jim and i m sorry that you have these feelings of denial about the faith you need to get by oh well just pretend that it will all end happily ever after anyway maybe if you start a new newsgroup alt atheist hard you won t be bummin so much good job jim bye bake more slim jim tm deleted bye bake bye bye bye bye big jim don t forget your flintstone s chewables bake timmons iii there s nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful in life than some good memory alyosha in brothers karamazov dostoevsky
alt.atheism	studies on book of mormon hi i don t know much about mormons and i want to know about serious independent studies about the book of mormon i don t buy the official story about the gold original taken to heaven but haven t read the book of mormon by myself i have to much work learning biblical hebrew i will appreciate any comment about the results of study in style vocabulary place names internal consistency and so on for example there is evidence for one writer or multiple writers there are some mention about events places or historical persons later discovered by archeologist yours in collen andres grino brandt casilla santiago agrino enkidu mic cl chile no hay mas realidad que la realidad y la razon es su profeta
alt.atheism	re gulf war and peace niks in article apr bmerh bnr ca dgraham bmers bnr ca douglas graham writes wait a minute you said never play a chamberlain since the us is playing chamberlain as far as east timor is concerned wouldn t that lead you to think that your argument is irrelevant and had nothing to do with the gulf war actually i rather like your idea perhaps the rest of the world should have bombed or maybe missiled washington when the us invaded nicaragua grenada panama vietnam mexico hawaii or any number of other places wait a minute doug i know you are better informed than that the us has never invaded nicaragua as far as i know we liberated grenada from the cubans to protect us citizens there and to prevent the completion of a strategic air strip panama we invaded true twice this century vietnam we were invited in by the government of s vietnam i guess we invaded saudi arabia during the gulf war eh mexico we have invaded mexico or times once this century but there were no missiles for anyone to shoot over here at that time hawaii we liberated it from spain so if you mean by the word invaded some sort of military action where we cross someone s border you are right out of but normally invaded carries a connotation of attacking an autonomous nation if some nation invades the u s virgin islands would they be invading the virgin islands or the u s so from this point of view your score falls to out of mexico panama what s a peace nik is that somebody who doesn t masturbate over guns n ammo or what is it supposed to be bad to be a peace nik no it s someone who believes in peace at all costs in other words a person who would have supported giving hitler not only austria and czechoslakia but poland too if it could have averted the war and one who would allow hitler to wipe all all jews slavs and political dissidents in areas he controlled as long as he left the rest of us alone is it supposed to be bad to be a peace nik you ask well it depends on what your values are if you value life over liberty peace over freedom then i guess not but if liberty and freedom mean more to you than life itself if you d rather die fighting for liberty than live under a tyrant s heel then yes it s bad to be a peace nik the problem with most peace niks it they consider those of us who are not like them to be bad and unconscionable i would not have any argument or problem with a peace nik if they held to their ideals and stayed out of all conflicts or issues especially those dealing with the national defense but no they are not willing to allow us to legitimately hold a different point of view they militate and many times resort to violence all in the name of peace what rank hypocrisy all to stop we warmongers who are willing to stand up and defend our freedoms against tyrants and who realize that to do so requires a strong national defense time to get off the soapbox now doug graham dgraham bnr ca my opinions are my own regards jim b
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics nancyo fraser sfu ca nancy patricia o connor writes timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes rule don t mix apples with oranges how can you say that the extermination by the mongols was worse than stalin khan conquered people unsympathetic to his cause that was atrocious but stalin killed millions of his own people who loved and worshipped him and his atheist state how can anyone be worse than that you re right and david koresh claimed to be a christian yup i can hear the millions cheering for dk right now josef stalin eat your heart out bake timmons iii there s nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful in life than some good memory alyosha in brothers karamazov dostoevsky
alt.atheism	he has risen our lord and savior david keresh has risen he has been seen alive spread the word my sole intention was learning to fly
alt.atheism	re idle questions for fellow atheists acooper mac cc macalstr edu wrote i wonder how many atheists out there care to speculate on the face of the world if atheists were the majority rather than the minority group of the population i ve been thinking about this every now and then since i cut my ties with christianity it is surprising to note that a large majority of people at least in finland seem to be apatheists even though of the population are members of the lutheran church of finland religious people are actually a minority could it be possible that many people believe in god just in case it seems people do not want to seek the truth they fall prey to pascal s wager or other poor arguments a small minority of those who do believe reads the bible regularly the majority doesn t care it believes but doesn t know what or how people don t usually allow their beliefs to change their lifestyle they only want to keep the virtual gate open a christian would say that they are not born in the spirit but this does not disturb them religion is not something to think about i m afraid a society with a true atheist majority is an impossible dream religions have a strong appeal to people nevertheless a promise of life after death is something humans eagerly listen to coupled with threats of eternal torture and the idea that our morality is under constant scrutiny of some cosmic cop too many people take the poison with a smile or just pretend to swallow and unconsciously hope god wouldn t notice also how many atheists out there would actually take the stance and accor a higher value to their way of thinking over the theistic way of thinking the typical selfish argument would be that both lines of thinking evolved from the same inherent motivation so one is not intrinsically different from the other qualitatively but then again a measuring stick must be drawn somewhere and if we cannot assign value to a system of beliefs at its core than the only other alternative is to apply it to its periphery ie how it expresses its own selfishness if logic and reason are valued then i would claim that atheistic thinking is of higher value than the theistic exposition theists make unnecessary assumptions they believe in i ve yet to see good reasons to believe in gods or to take a leap of faith at all a revelation would do however why do we value logic and reasoning this questions bears some resemblance to a long disputed problem in science why mathematics works strong deep structuralists like atkins have proposed that perhaps after all everything is mathematics is usefulness any criterion petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics is the truth pihatie c finou oulu fi physics is the rule of sf oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu fi chemistry is the game
alt.atheism	re societally acceptable behavior in article c r at asv news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes in qvabj g j horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article c qgm dl news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes am i making a wrong assumption for the basis of morals where do they come from the question came from the idea that i heard that morals come from whatever is societally mandated it s only one aspect of morality societal morality is necessarily very crude and broad brush stuff which attempts to deal with what is necessary to keep that society going and often it s a little over enthusiastic about doing so individual morality is a different thing it often includes societal mores or society is in trouble but is stronger for example some people are vegetarian though eating meat may be perfectly legal merely a question for the basis of morality moral ethical behavior societally acceptable behavior who is society depends on the society doesn t help is the point irrelevant no often the answer is we are but if society is those who make the rules that s a different question if society is who should make the rules that s yet another i don t claim to have the answers either but i don t think we do it very well in ireland and i like some things about the us system at least in principle how do they define what is acceptable depends on again this comes from a certain question see above well ideally they don t but if they must they should do it by consensus imo how do we keep from a whatever is legal is what is moral position by adopting a default position that people s moral decisions are none of society s business so how can we put people in jail how can we condemn other societies because sometimes that s necessary the hard trick is to recognise when it is and equally importantly when it isn t and only interfering when it s truly necessary why would it be necessary what right do we have to interfere imo it isn t often that interference i e jail and force of various kinds and degrees is both necessary and effective where you derive the right to interfere is a difficult question it s a sort of liar s paradox force is necessary for freedom one possible justification is that people who wish to take away freedom shouldn t object if their own freedom is taken away the paradox doesn t arise if we don t actively wish to take way anyone s freedom the introduction of permissible interference causes the problem that it can be either too much or too little but most people seem to agree that some level of interference is necessary they see the need for a justice system how can we even define that term only by consensus i guess thus you get a situation where the law often allows what honour forbids which i ve come to believe is as it should be i admit i don t understand that statement what i mean is that while thus and such may be legal thus and such may also be seen as immoral the law lets you do it but you don t let yourself do it eating meat for example frank o dwyer i m not hatching that odwyer sse ie from hens by evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	re islamic genocide in p psilink com robert knowles p psilink com writes date apr gmt from frank o dwyer frank d s uucp in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes just borrowing your post mr rice in p psilink com robert knowles p psilink com writes are you sure that democracy is the driving force behind the massacres in east timor it is certainly odd that so many of the worlds massacres occur along religious lines independently of any claims to a democratic form of government are ireland and northern ireland considered democracies would you attribute their problems to democracy even though they are democracies which motivates them more religion or democracy mr rice was pointing out a fallacy in the assertion that islam is evil because some of those who claim to follow it are evil not asserting that democracy causes massacres as i read it that is right he was and i was pointing out that his use of indonesians killing the east timorese as a result of democracy was a bit weak because democracy is not much of a motivation for doing much of anything in indonesia from what i remember east timor was a former portguese territory which was forcibly annexed by indonesia last i heard over indonesians have died trying to keep east timor a part of indonesia being a former portuguese colony there is a strong catholic influence in east timor as i recall so it seems a bit odd that yet again we have another war being fought between people who just happen to have different religions purely coincidental i guess but then the real motivation is to get the vote out and make democracy work in indonesia i pointed out the secession movement in aceh which has also been brutally dealt with in the past by the indonesian government the harshly with all secessionist movements the evidence it appears to me that the indonesian government has dealt very harshly with all secession movements i know that the head of the indonesian armed forces for a very long time was benny murdani a christian indonesia has been heavy handed in east timor for a long time even when murdani was head of the armed forces the people who make up the indonesian government are in general motivated by national interests not religious ones fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics robert knowles writes my my there are a few atheists with time on their hands ok first i apologize i didn t bother reading the faq first and so fired an imprecise flame that was inexcusable how about the nickname bake flamethrower timmons sure but robert koresh fetesh sic knowles seems good too you weren t at the koresh compound around noon today by any chance were you remember koresh dried for your sins and pass that beef jerky umm umm though i wasn t there at least i can rely on you now to keep me posted on what what he s doing have you any other fetishes besides those for beef jerky and david koresh bake timmons iii there s nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful in life than some good memory alyosha in brothers karamazov dostoevsky
alt.atheism	re christian morality is in article c prca news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb says in vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes in article c l ey jts news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes if i m wrong god is free at any time to correct my mistake that he continues not to do so while supposedly proclaiming his undying love for my eternal soul speaks volumes what are the volumes that it speaks besides the fact that he leaves your choices up to you leaves the choices up to us but gives us no better reason to believe than an odd story of his alleged son getting killed for us and little new in the past few thousand years leaving us with only the texts passed down through centuries of meddling with the meaning and even wording most of this passing down and interpretation of course coming from those who have a vested interest in not allowing the possibility that it might not be the ultimate truth what about maybe talking to us directly eh he s a big god right he ought to be able to make time for the creations he loves so much at least enough to give us each a few words of direct conversation what he s too busy to get around to all of us or maybe a few unquestionably miraculous works here and there speaks volumes upon volumes to me that i ve never gotten a chance to meet the guy and chat with him
alt.atheism	re death penalty gulf war in article f rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew mathew mantis co uk writes jbrown batman bmd trw com writes in article e rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew mathew mantis co uk writes yes fortunately we have right thinking folks like your good self in power and it was therefore deemed acceptable to slaughter tens or even hundreds o thousands of iraqis in order to liberate oil h h hkuwait we won the war hurrah hurrah the number of civilian iraqi deaths were way over exaggerated and exploited for anti war emotionalism by the liberal news media the facts are that less iraqis died in the gulf war than did civilians in any other war of comparable size this century let s analyze this claim a little how is the size of a war defined by number of participants geographical area number of countries involved number of casualties size of armies duration numbers of casualties both absolute and as a percentage of those involved geographical area and numbers of countries too are all measures of size in this case i d say the relevant statistic would be the number of combatants total troops compared to total casualties from among the total civilian population in the affected geographical area which other comparable wars are we talking about vietnam and korea might make good comparisons which liberal news media are we talking about western news in general but in particular the american mass media cbs nbc abc etc the general tone of the news during the whole war was one of those poor poor iraqis along with look how precisely this cruise missile blew this building to bits this was due mostly to the short duration coupled with precise surgical bombing techniques which were technically possible only recently i suspect that medical advances may have something to do with it too i agree how about all the innocent people who died in blanket bombing in ww i don t hear you bemoaning them perhaps because the topic hasn t cropped up if you want my opinion i think that the blanket bombing of german cities at the end of world war two was the most appalling act of wholesale slaughter this country has committed in centuries bomber harris was no hero of mine perhaps so and maybe the atomic bomb was a mistake too but that s easy to say from our enlightened viewpoint here in the s right back then it was all out war and germany and japan had to be squashed after all a million or more british had already died hundreds of thousands of french a couple hundread thousand or so americans and millions of russians not to mention a few million jews poles and other people of slavic descent in german concentration camps all things considered the fire bombings and the atomic bomb were essential and therefore justified in bringing the war to a quick end to avoid even greater allied losses i for one don t regret it war is never an exact science but with smart bombs it s becoming more exact with a smaller percentage of civilian casualties sometimes mistakes are made targets are misidentified innocents die that s war the way it really is entrenched political rulers operating in their own selfish interests without regard for the lives of other people that is the way war really is sure and it s the people who suffer because of them all the more reason to depose these entrenched political rulers operating in their own selfish interests or do you mean that this applies to the allies as well why all the fuss about kuwait and not east timor bosnia or even tibet if iraq is so bad why were we still selling them stuff a couple of weeks before we started bombing i make no claim or effort to justify the misguided foreign policy of the west before the war it is evident that the west especially america misjudged hussein drastically but once hussein invaded kuwait and threatened to militarily corner a significant portion of the world s oil supply he had to be stopped sure the war could have been prevented by judicious and concerted effort on the part of the west before hussein invaded kuwait but it is still hussein who is responsible for his decision to invade and once he did so a strong response from the west was required mathew your sarcasm is noted but you are completely off base here you come off sounding like a complete peace nik idiot although i feel sure that was not your intent what s your intent to sound like a loving christian well you aren t doing a very good job of it well it s not very loving to allow a hussein or a hitler to gobble up nearby countries and keep them or to allow them to continue with mass slaughter of certain peoples under their dominion so i d have to say yes stopping hussein was the most loving thing to do for the most people involved once he set his mind on military conquest so the iraqi war was wrong eh i m sure that appeasement would have worked better than war just like it did in ww eh who even mentioned appeasement and what makes you think the situation is even remotely analogous to world war two i mentioned it if we hadn t intervened allowing hussein to keep kuwait then it would have been appeasement it is precisely the lessons the world learned in ww that motivated the western alliance to war letting hitler take austria and czechoslavkia did not stop ww from happening and letting hussein keep kuwait would not have stopped an eventual gulf war to protect saudi arabia i guess we shouldn t have fought ww either just think of all those innocent german civilians killed in dresden and hamburg yes do germans are human too you know sure what was truly unfortunate was that they followed hitler in his grandiose quest for a thousand year reich the consequences stemmed from that tyrants like hussein have to be stopped his kind don t understand diplomacy they only understand the point of a gun my only regret is that bush wimped out and didn t have the military roll into baghdad so now hussein is still in power and the iraqi people s sacrifice not to mention the americans who died was for naught i look forward to hearing your incisive comments about east timor and tibet what should i say about them anything in particular and as for poor poor rodney king did you ever stop and think why the jury in the first trial brought back a verdict of not guilty yes amongst the things i thought were hmm there s an awful lot of white people in that jury so it was the policemen on trial not rodney king and under american law they deserved a jury of their peers if there had been black officers involved i m sure their would have been black jurors too this point of allegedly racial motivations is really shallow those who have been foaming at the mouth for the blood of those policemen certainly have looked no further than the video tape but the jury looked at all the evidence evidence which you and i have not seen when i see a bunch of policemen beating someone who s lying defenceless on the ground it s rather hard to imagine what this other evidence might have been so it s hard to imagine so when has argument from incredulity gained acceptance from the revered author of constructing a logical argument can we expect another revision soon just kidding if there is some wonderful evidence why is it seemingly being kept secret why not tell everyone what it is then everyone could say oh yes you re right king deserved a good beating and we could all live happily ever after i have to admit that i wonder this too but neither the prosecution nor the defense is talking so one cannot conclude either way due to the silence of the principals law in this country is intended to protect the rights of the accused whether they be criminals or cops one is not found guilty if there is a reasonable doubt of one s guilt and only the jury is in a position to assess the evidence and render a verdict fine but i m still finding it hard to imagine what the reasonable doubt was in this case i mean the cops certainly seem to be beating someone who s lying defenceless on the ground what s your explanation mass hallucination orbital mind control lasers faked video footage do tell ok it certainly seemed to me that there was excessive force involved and frankly the original not guilty verdict baffled me too but then i learned that the prosecution in the first case did not try to convict on a charge of excessive force or simple assault which they probably would have won they tried to get a conviction on a charge of aggravated assault with intent to inflict serious bodily harm a charge which news commentators said was akin to attempted murder under california law based on what the prosecution was asking for it s evident that the first jury decided that the officers were not guilty note not not guilty of doing wrong but not guilty of aggravated assault with the intent of inflicting serious bodily harm the seeds of the prosecutions defeat were in their own overconfidence in obtaining a verdict such that they went for the most extreme charge they could if the facts as the news commentators presented them are true then i feel the not guilty verdict was a reasonable one mathew thou shalt not kill unless thou hast a pretty good reason for killing in which case thou shalt kill and also kill anyone who gets in the way as unfortunately it cannot be helped jim brown bible for loving christians thanks mathew i like the quote pretty funny actually i m a monty python fan you know kind of seems in that vein of course oversimplifying any moral argument can make it seem contradictory but then you know that already regards jim b loving christian
alt.atheism	re free moral agency in article c pxqs lm darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner says dean kaflowitz decay cbnewsj cb att com wrote now what i am interested in is the original notion you were discussing on moral free agency that is how can a god punish a person for not believing in him when that person is only following his or her nature and it is not possible for that person to deny what his or her reason tells him or her which is that there is no god i think you re letting atheist mythology confuse you on the issue of webster myth a traditional or legendary story a belief whose truth is accepted uncritically how does that qualify indeed it s almost oxymoronic a rather amusing instance i ve found that most atheists hold almost no atheist views as accepted uncritically especially the few that are legend many are trying to explain basic truths as myths do but they don t meet the other criterions also divine justice according to the most fundamental doctrines of christianity when the first man sinned he was at that time the you accuse him of referencing mythology then you procede to launch your own xtian mythology this time meeting all the requirements of myth salvation the idea of punishment is based on the proposition that everyone knows instinctively that god exists is their creator and ah but not everyone knows that god exists so you have a fallacy there s nothing terribly difficult in all this and is well known to any reasonably biblically literate christian the only controversy is and that makes it true holding with the bible rules out controversy read the faq if you ve read it you missed something so re read not a bad suggestion for anyone i re read it just before this with those who pretend not to know what is being said and what it means when atheists claim that they do not know if god exists and don t know what he wants they contradict the bible which clearly says that everyone knows the authority of the bible is its claim to be should i repeat what i wrote above for the sake of getting it across you may trust the bible but your trusting it doesn t make it any more credible to me if the bible says that everyone knows that s clearly reason to doubt the bible because not everyone knows your alleged god s alleged existance refuted while the species wide condemnation is justified those that claim that there is no evidence for the existence of god or that his will is unknown must deliberately ignore the bible the ignorance itself is no excuse no they don t have to ignore the bible the bible is far from universally accepted the bible is not a proof of god it is only a proof that some people have thought that there was a god or does it prove even that they might have been writing it as series of fiction short stories as in the case of dionetics assuming the writers believed it the only thing it could possibly prove is that they believed it and that s ignoring the problem of whether or not all the interpretations and biblical philosophers were correct there are people who have truly never heard of the bible again read the faq freedom you are free to ignore god in the same way you are free to ignore gravity and the consequences are inevitable and well known in both cases that an atheist can t accept the evidence means only bzzt wrong answer gravity is directly there it doesn t stop exerting a direct and rationally undeniable influence if you ignore it god on the other hand doesn t generally show up in the supermarket except on the tabloids god doesn t exert a rationally undeniable influence gravity is obvious gods aren t secondly human reason is very comforatble with the concept of god so much so that it is in itself intrinsic to our nature human reason always comes back to the question of god in every generation and in no human reason hasn t always come back to the existance of god it has usually come back to the existance of god in other words it doesn t generally come back to the xtian god it comes back to whether there is any god and in much of oriental philosophic history it generally doesn t pop up as the idea of a god so much as the question of what natural forces are and which ones are out there from a world wide view human nature just makes us wonder how the universe came to be and or what force s are currently in control a natural tendancy to believe in god only exists in religious wishful thinking i said all this to make the point that christianity is eminently reasonable that divine justice is just and human nature is much different than what atheists think it is whether you agree or not xtianity is no more reasonable than most other religions and it s reasonableness certainly doesn t merit eminence divine justice well it only seems just to those who already believe in the divinity first not all atheists believe the same things about human nature second whether most atheists are correct or not you certainly are not correct on human nature you are at the least basing your views on a completely eurocentric approach try looking at the outside world as well when you attempt to sum up all of humanity andrew
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by theism evidence in article qibo f o horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in the absence of some convincing evidence that theist fanatics are more dangerous than atheist fanatics i ll continue to be wary of fanatics of any stripe i think that the agnostic fanatics are the most dangerous of the lot fair point actually i mentioned theists and atheists but left out agnostics mea culpa no wonder in the light of that you are a probably a theist who tries to pass as an agnostic i still remember your post about your daughter singing chrismas carols and your feelings of it well by the way would you show marginal honesty and answer the many questions you left open when you ceased to respond last time benedikt
alt.atheism	re islamic genocide in article qi b ec horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes deletion few people can imagine dying for capitalism a few more can imagine dying for democracy but a lot more will die for their lord and savior jesus christ who died on the cross for their sins motivation pure and simple got any cites for this nonsense how many people will die for mom patriotism freedom money their kids fast cars and swimming pools a night with kim basinger or mel gibson and which of these things are evil read a history book fred and tell me why so many religions command to commit genocide when it has got nothing to do with religion or why so many religions say that not living up to the standards of the religion is worse than dieing coincidence i assume or ist part of the absolute morality you describe so often theism is strongly correlated with irrational belief in absolutes irrational belief in absolutes is strongly correlated with fanatism benedikt
alt.atheism	re where are they now in article ql d vo dr pepper east sun com geoff east sun com geoff arnold sun bos r h coast near the top writes your posting provoked me into checking my save file for memorable posts the first i captured was by ken arromdee on feb on the subject re atheist too that was article here your question was article which is an average of about articles a day for the last three years as others have noted the current posting rate is such that my kill file is depressing large among the posting i saved in the early days were articles from the following notables hey it might to interesting to read some of these posts especially from ones who still regularly posts on alt atheism from loren sunlight llnl gov loren petrich from jchrist nazareth israel rel jesus christ of nazareth from mrc tomobiki cho cac washington edu mark crispin from perry apollo hp com jim perry from lippard uavax ccit arizona edu james j lippard from minsky media mit edu marvin minsky an interesting bunch i wonder where is hee hee hee i ain t going to say whatever promises that have been made can than be broken john laws a man without the honor to keep his given word
alt.atheism	re cruel was re political atheists in article ql mdinn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes this whole thread started because of a discussion about whether or not the death penalty constituted cruel punishment which is forbidden by the us constitution yes but they didn t say what they meant by cruel which is why a you have the supreme court and b it makes no sense to refer to the constitution which is quite silent on the meaning of the word cruel they spent quite a bit of time on the wording of the constitution they picked words whose meanings implied the intent we have already looked in the dictionary to define the word isn t this sufficient we only need to ask the question what did the founding fathers consider cruel and unusual punishment hanging hanging there slowing being strangled would be very painful both physically and psychologicall i imagine firing squad note not a clean way to die back in those days etc all would be considered cruel under your definition all were allowed under the constitution by the founding fathers whatever promises that have been made can than be broken john laws a man without the honor to keep his given word
alt.atheism	re political atheists in article ql ajinn kj gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes well chimps must have some system they live in social groups as we do so they must have some laws dictating undesired behavior why must whatever promises that have been made can than be broken john laws a man without the honor to keep his given word
alt.atheism	re some thoughts in article bissda saturn wwc edu bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes the arguements he uses i am summing up the book is about whether jesus was god or not i know many of you don t believe but listen to a different perspective for we all have something to gain by listening to what others have to say read the faq first watch the list fr some weeks and come back then and read some other books on the matter in order to broaden your view first benedikt
alt.atheism	re who says the apostles were tortured in article qiu innpq srvr engin umich edu ingles engin umich edu ray ingles writes as evidence for the resurrection it is often claimed that the disciples were tortured to death for their beliefs and still did not renounce their claim that jesus had come back from the dead now i skimmed acts and such and i found a reference to this happening to stephen but no others where does this apparently very widely held belief come from is there any evidence outside the bible is there any evidence in the bible i sure haven t found any early authors and legends the most important sources can be found in the martyriologia of the catholic church makes the grimms look like exact science benedikt
alt.atheism	re political atheists in article qlfd inn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes well chimps must have some system they live in social groups as we do so they must have some laws dictating undesired behavior so why must they have such laws the quotation marks should enclose laws not must if there were no such rules even instinctive ones or unwritten ones etc then surely some sort of random chance would lead a chimp society into chaos the system refered to a moral system you havn t shown any reason that chimps must have a moral system except if you would like to redefine everything whatever promises that have been made can than be broken john laws a man without the honor to keep his given word
alt.atheism	re where are they now in article ql d vo dr pepper east sun com geoff east sun com writes your posting provoked me into checking my save file for memorable posts the first i captured was by ken arromdee on feb on the subject re atheist too that was article here your question was article which is an average of about articles a day for the last three years as others have noted the current posting rate is such that my kill file is depressing large among the posting i saved in the early days were articles from the following notables from loren sunlight llnl gov loren petrich from jchrist nazareth israel rel jesus christ of nazareth from mrc tomobiki cho cac washington edu mark crispin from perry apollo hp com jim perry from lippard uavax ccit arizona edu james j lippard from minsky media mit edu marvin minsky an interesting bunch i wonder where is didn t you hear his address has changed he can be reached at the following address dkoresh branch davidian compound waco tx us i think he was last seen posting to alt messianic jim if god is dead and the actor plays his part sting his words of fear will find their way to a place in your heart history without the voice of reason every faith is its own curse will teach us without freedom from the past things can only get worse nothing
alt.atheism	re free moral agency are you saying that their was a physical adam and eve and that all humans are direct decendents of only these two human beings then who were cain and able s wives couldn t be their sisters because a e didn t have daughters were they non humans genesis and the days of adam after he begat seth were eight hundred years and he begat sons and daughters felicitations chris ho stuart
alt.atheism	re death penalty gulf war long in article x rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew mathew mantis co uk writes jbrown batman bmd trw com writes in article f rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew mathew mantis co uk writes which liberal news media are we talking about western news in general but in particular the american mass media cbs nbc abc etc the general tone of the news during the whole war was one of those poor poor iraqis along with look how precisely this cruise missile blew this building to bits most odd over here there was very little about the suffering of the iraqi civilians until towards the end of the war and then it was confined to the few remaining quality newspapers true at first the news media seemed entranced by all the new gizmos the military was using not to mention the taped video transmissions from the missiles as they zeroed in on their targets but later and especially after the bunker full of civilians was hit they changed their tone it seemed to me that they didn t have the stomach for the reality of war that innocent people really do die and are maimed in warfare it s like they were only pro gulf war as long as it was nice and clean smart missiles dropping in on military hqs but not when pictures of dead dying and maimed civilians started cropping up what naive hypocrites how about all the innocent people who died in blanket bombing in ww i don t hear you bemoaning them discussion about blanket bombing and a bombs deleted all things considered the fire bombings and the atomic bomb were essential and therefore justified in bringing the war to a quick end to avoid even greater allied losses i should have said here militarily justified it seems from your comments below that you understood this as meaning morally justified i apologize what about the evidence that america knew japan was about to surrender after hiroshima but before nagasaki is that another lie peddled by the liberal media conspiracy i have often wondered about this i ve always thought that the first bomb should have been dropped on japan s island fortress of truk a good inpenatrable military target the second bomb could ve been held back for use on an industrial center if need be but i digress yes i have heard that we found evidence after the war btw that japan was seriously considering surrender after the first bomb unfortunately the military junta won out over the moderates and rejected the us s ulimatum therefore the second bomb was dropped most unfortunate imo i for one don t regret it nuke a jap for jesus i don t regret the fact that sometimes military decisions have to be made which affect the lives of innocent people but i do regret the circumstances which make those decisions necessary and i regret the suffering caused by those decisions why all the fuss about kuwait and not east timor bosnia or even tibet if iraq is so bad why were we still selling them stuff a couple of weeks before we started bombing i make no claim or effort to justify the misguided foreign policy of the west before the war it is evident that the west especially america misjudged hussein drastically but once hussein invaded kuwait and threatened to militarily corner a significant portion of the world s oil supply he had to be stopped oh i see so we can overlook his using chemical weapons on thousands of people but if he threatens your right to drive a huge gas guzzling car well the man s gotta go actually it was the fact that both situations existed that prompted us and allied action if some back water country took over some other back water country we probably wouldn t intervene not that we don t care but we can t be the world s policman or if a coup had occured in kuwait instead of an invasion then we still wouldn t have acted because there would not have been the imminent danger perceived to saudi arabia but the combination of the two an unprovoked invasion by a genocidal tyrant and the potential danger to the west s oil interests caused us to take action i ve moved a paragraph from here to later on if we hadn t intervened allowing hussein to keep kuwait then it would have been appeasement right but did you ever hear anyone advocate such a course of action or are you just setting up a strawman i m not setting up a strawman at all if you want to argue against the war then the only logical alternative was to allow hussein to keep kuwait diplomatic alternatives including sanctions were ineffective i guess we shouldn t have fought ww either just think of all those innocent german civilians killed in dresden and hamburg yes do germans are human too you know sure what was truly unfortunate was that they followed hitler in his grandiose quest for a thousand year reich the consequences stemmed from that translation they were asking for it well in a sense yes they probably had no idea of what end hitler would lead their nation to but what about those who didn t support hitler s dreams of conquest it s not as if they democratically voted for all his policies the nsdap got in the elections of and that was the last chance the german people got to vote on the matter they suffered along with the rest why does this bother you so much the world is full of evil and circumstances are not perfect many innocents suffer due to the wrongful actions of others it it regretable but that s the way it is there are no perfect solutions i look forward to hearing your incisive comments about east timor and tibet what should i say about them anything in particular the people of east timor are still being killed by a dictatorship that invaded their country hell even western journalists have been killed all this was happening before the gulf war why didn t we send in the bombers to east timor why aren t we sending in the bombers now probably because we re not the saviors of the world we can t police each and every country that decides to self destruct or invade another nor are we in a strategic position to get relief to tibet east timor or some other places here s that paragraph i moved what s your intent to sound like a loving christian well you aren t doing a very good job of it well it s not very loving to allow a hussein or a hitler to gobble up nearby countries and keep them or to allow them to continue with mass slaughter of certain peoples under their dominion so i d have to say yes stopping hussein was the most loving thing to do for the most people involved once he set his mind on military conquest the chinese government has a policy of mandatory abortion and sterilization of tibetans tibetan people are rounded up tortured and executed amnesty international recently reported that torture is still widespread in china why aren t we stopping them in fact why are we actively sucking up to them by trading freely with them tell me how we could stop them and i ll support it i for one do not agree with the present us policy of sucking up to them as you put it i agree that it is deplorable and as for poor poor rodney king did you ever stop and think why the jury in the first trial brought back a verdict of not guilty yes amongst the things i thought were hmm there s an awful lot of white people in that jury so it was the policemen on trial not rodney king erm surely it s irrelevant who s on trial juries are supposed to represent a cross section of the population are they or are they supposed to reflect the population of the locale where the trial is held normally this is where the crime is committed unless one party or the other can convince the judge a change of venue is in order i m not an expert on california law or even us law but it seems that this is the way the system is set up you can criticize the system but let s not have unfounded allegations of racial prejudice thrown around and under american law they deserved a jury of their peers you are saying that black people are not the peers of white people no not at all the point is that the fact that there were no blacks on the first jury and that rodney king is black is totally irrelevant this point of allegedly racial motivations is really shallow this idea of people only being tried before a jury of people just like them is really stupid should the nuremburg trials have had a jury entirely made up of nazis germans perhaps peers doesn t mean those who do the same thing like having murderers judge murderers it means having people from the same station in life presumably because they are in a better position to understand the defendent s motivation s those who have been foaming at the mouth for the blood of those policemen certainly have looked no further than the video tape but the jury looked at all the evidence evidence which you and i have not seen when i see a bunch of policemen beating someone who s lying defenceless on the ground it s rather hard to imagine what this other evidence might have been so it s hard to imagine so when has argument from incredulity gained acceptance from the revered author of constructing a logical argument we re not talking about a logical argument we re talking about a court of law as the faq points out some fallacious arguments are not viewed as fallacies in a court of law ok granted however you are using this reasoning as part of your logical argument in this discussion this is not a court of law if the facts as the news commentators presented them are true then i feel the not guilty verdict was a reasonable one were you not talking earlier about the bias of the liberal media conspiracy the media is not totally monolithic even though there is a prevailing liberal bias programs such as the macneil lehrer news hour try to give a balanced and fair reporting of the news there are even conservative sources out there if you know where to look hurrah for rush btw i never used the word conspiracy i don t accept without far more evidence theories that there is some all pervading liberal conspiracy attempting to take over all news sources thou shalt not kill unless thou hast a pretty good reason for killing in which case thou shalt kill and also kill anyone who gets in the way as unfortunately it cannot be helped jim brown bible for loving christians thanks mathew i like the quote pretty funny actually i m a monty python fan you know kind of seems in that vein of course oversimplifying any moral argument can make it seem contradictory but then you know that already ha ha only serious i an atheist am arguing against killing innocent people you a supposed christian are arguing that it s ok to kill innocent people so long as you get some guilty ones as well hardly i didn t say that it s a good thing tm to kill innocent people if the end is just unfortunately we don t live in a perfect world and there are no perfect solutions if one is going to resist tyranny then innocent people on both sides are going to suffer and die i didn t say it is ok it is unfortunate but sometimes necessary i a moral relativist am arguing that saturation bombing of german cities at the end of world war ii was as far as i can see an evil and unnecessary act i would agree that it was evil in the sense that it caused much pain and suffering i m not so sure that it was unnecessary as you say that conclusion can only be arrived at by evaluating all the factors involved and perhaps it was unnecessary as let s say we now know that doesn t mean that those who had to make the decision to bomb didn t see it as being necessary rarely can one have full known of the consequences of an action before making a decision at the time it may have seemed necessary enough to go ahead with it but don t assume that i feel the bombing was morally justified i don t i just don t condemn those who had to make a difficult decision under difficult circumstances you having criticised moral relativism in the past are now arguing that i am in no position to judge the morality of allied actions at the end of the war you certainly are not in such a position if you are a moral relativist i as an absolutist am in a position to judge but i defer judgment you are arguing that the actions need to be assessed in the particular context of the time and that they might have been moral then but not moral now wrong they were neither moral then nor now they seemed necessary to those making the decisions to bring a quick end to the war i simply refuse to condemn them for their decision where s your christian love where s your absolute morality oh how quick you are to discard them when it suits you as ivan stang would say jesus would puke one day i will stand before jesus and give account of every word and action even this discourse in this forum i understand the full ramifications of that and i am prepared to do so i don t believe that you can make the same claim mathew and btw the reason i brought up the blanket bombing in germany was because you were bemoaning the iraqi civilian casualties as being so deplorable yet blanket bombing was instituted because bombing wasn t accurate enough to hit industrial military targets in a decisive way by any other method at that time but in the gulf war precision bombing was the norm so the point was why make a big stink about the relatively few civilian casualties that resulted in spite of precision bombing when so many more civilians proportionately and quantitatively died under the blanket bombing in ww even with precision bombing mistakes happen and some civilians suffer but less civilians suffered in this war than any other iany other in history many iraqi civilians went about their lives with minimal interference from the allied air raids the stories of hundreds of thousands of iraqi civilian dead is just plain bunk yes bunk the us lost servicemen in ww over four years and the majority of them were directly involved in fighting but we are expected to swallow that hundreds of thousands of civilian iraqis died in a war lasting about months and with the allies using the most precise bombs ever created at that what hogwash if hundreds of thousands of iraqi civilians died it was due to actions hussein took on his own people not due to the allied bombing regards jim b
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics maddi hausmann chirps timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes first of all you seem to be a reasonable guy why not try to be more honest and include my sentence afterwards that honest it just ended like that i swear that s nice hmmmm i recognize the warning signs alternating polite and rude coming into newsgroup with huge chip on shoulder calls people names and then makes nice whirrr click whirrr you forgot the third equality whirrr click whirrr see below whirr click whirr frank o dwyer might also be contained in that shell pop stack to determine whirr click whirr killfile keith allen schneider frank closet theist o dwyer maddi the mad sound o geek hausmann whirrr click whirrr bake timmons iii there s nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful in life than some good memory alyosha in brothers karamazov dostoevsky
alt.atheism	re islam and scientific predictions was re genocide is caused by atheism in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes the positive aspect of this verse noted by dr maurice bucaille is that while geocentrism was the commonly accepted notion at the time and for a long time afterwards there is no notion of geocentrism in this verse or anywhere in the qur an there is no notion of heliocentric or even galacticentric either my sole intention was learning to fly
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and anarchists mccullou whipple cs wisc edu writes my turn i went back and reread your post all you did is attack atheism and say that agnosticism wasn t as funny as atheism nowhere does that imply that you are agnostic or weak atheist as most people who post such inflammatory remarks are theists it was a reasonable assumption sorry you re right i did not clearly state it rule condescending to the population at large i e theists will not win many people to your faith anytime soon it only ruins your credibility how am i being condescending to the population at large i am stating something that happened to be true for a long time i couldn t believe that people actually believed in this god idea it was an alien concept to me i am not trying to win people to my faith as you put it i have no faith religion was a non issue when i had the attitude above because it never even occurred to me to believe atheist by default i guess you could say the most common form of condescending is the rational versus irrational attitude once one has accepted the assumption that there is no god s and then consider other faiths to be irrational simply because their assumption s contradict your assumption then i would say there s a lack of consistency here now i know you ll get on me about faith if the positive belief that god does not exist were a closed logical argument why do so many rational people have problems with that logic but you probably like me seem to be a soft atheist sorry for the flamage the line about atheists haveing something up their sleeves is what seemed to imply that sorry been reading too much on the clipper project lately and the paranoia over there may have seeped in some what is the clipper project btw rule don t mix apples with oranges how can you say that the extermination by the mongols was worse than stalin khan conquered people unsympathetic to his cause that was atrocious but stalin killed millions of his own people who loved and worshipped him and his atheist state how can anyone be worse than that many rulers have done similar things in the past only stalin did it when there was plenty of documentation to afix the blame on him the evidence is that some of the early european rulers ruled with an iron fist much like stalin s you threw in numbers and i am sick of hearing about stalin as an example because the example doesn t apply you managed to get me angry with your post because it appeared to attack all forms of atheism it might have appeared to attack atheism in general but its point was that mass killing happens for all sorts of reasons people will hate who they will and will wave whatever flag to justify it be it cross or hammer sickle the stalin example is important not only because it s still a widely unappreciated era that people want to forget but also because people really did love him and his ideas even after all that he had wrought the evidence i am referring to is more a lack of evidence than negative evidence say i claim there are no pink crows i have never seen a pink crow but that doesn t mean it couldn t exist but this person here claims that there are pink crows even though he admits he hasn t been able to capture one or get a photo or find one with me etc in a sense that is evidence to not believe in the existence of pink crows that is what i am saying when i look at the evidence i look at the suppossed evidence for a deity show how it is flawed and doesn t show what theists want it to show and go on first all the pink crows unicorns elves arguments in the world will not sway most people for they simply do not accept the analogy why one of the big reasons is that many many people want something beyond this life you can pretend that they don t want this but i for one can accept it and even want it myself sometimes and there is nothing unique in this example of why people want a god can love as a truth be proven logically themselves namely a god or gods so in principle it s hard to see how theists are necessarily arrogant makes no sense to me they seem arrogant to make such a claim to me but my previous refutation still stands and i believe there may be another one on the net john the baptist boasted of jesus to many people i find it hard to see how that behavior is arrogant at all many christians i know also boast in this way but i still do not necessarily see it as arrogance of course i do know arrogant christians doctors and teachers as well technically you might consider the person who originally made a given claim to be arrogant jesus for instance are you talking about all atheism or just strong atheism if you are talking about weak atheism which i believe in then i refuse such a claim atheism is a lack of belief i used good ol occam s razor to make the final rejection of a deity in that as i see things even if i present the hypothesises in an equal fasion i find the theist argument not plausible i speak against strong atheism i also often find that the evidence supporting a faith is very subjective just as say the evidence supporting love as truth is subjective i believe i answered that i apologize for the as you stated incorrect assumption on your theism but i saw nothing to indicate that you were an agnostic only that you were just another newbie christian on the net trying to get some cheap shots in no apology necessary bake timmons iii there s nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful in life than some good memory alyosha in brothers karamazov dostoevsky
alt.atheism	re so help you god in court in article tan psuvm psu edu andrew newell tan psuvm psu edu writes in article apr daffy cs wisc edu mccullou snake cs wisc edu mark mccullough says in article monack helium monack helium gas uug arizona edu david n monack writes another issue is that by having to request to not be required to recite the so help me god part of the oath a theistic jury may be prejudiced against your testimony even though atheism is probably not at all relevant to the case what is the recommended procedure for requesting an alternate oath or affirmation dave sorry for using a follow up to respond but my server dropped about a weeks worth of news when it couldn t keep up when the you are asked to swear so help you god and you have to say it ask which one jesus allah vishnu zues odin get them to be specific don t be obnoxious just humbly ask then quitely sit back and watch the fun james l felder sverdrup technology inc phone nasa lewis research center cleveland ohio email jfelder lerc nasa gov some people drink from the fountain of knowledge other people gargle
alt.atheism	re some thoughts in article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy r healy writes deletia wrt pathetic jee zus posting by bissel i hope you re not going to flame him please give him the same coutesy you ve given me no he hasn t extended to us the courtesy you ve shown us so he don t get no pie tammy i respect your beliefs because you don t try to stamp them into my being i have scorn for posters whose sole purpose appears to be to evangelize tammy
alt.atheism	re who says the apostles were tortured the traditions of the church hold that all the apostles meaning the surviving disciples matthias barnabas and paul were martyred except for john tradition should be understood to read early church writings other than the bible and heteroorthodox scriptures c wingate the peace of god it is no peace but strife closed in the sod mangoe cs umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace of god
alt.atheism	re some thoughts in article saturn wwc edu bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes first i want to start right out and say that i m a christian it makes sense to be one have any of you read tony campollo s book liar lunatic or the real thing i might be a little off on the title but he writes the book anyway he was part of an effort to destroy christianity in the process he became a christian himself sounds like you are saying he was a part of some conspiracy just what organization did he belong to does it have a name the book says that jesus was either a liar or he was crazy a modern day koresh or he was actually who he said he was logic alert artificial trifercation the are many other possible explainations could have been that he never existed there have been some good points made in this group that is not impossible that jc is an amalgam of a number of different myths mithra comes to mind some reasons why he wouldn t be a liar are as follows who would die for a lie wouldn t people be able to tell if he was a liar people gathered around him and kept doing it many gathered from hearing or seeing someone who was or had been healed call me a fool but i believe he did heal people logic alert argument from incredulity just because it is hard for you to believe this doesn t mean that it isn t true liars can be very pursuasive just look at koresh that you yourself site he has followers that don t think he is a fake and they have shown that they are willing to die by not giving up after getting shot himself koresh has shown that he too is will to die for what he believes as far as healing goes if i rememer right the healing that was attributed is not consistent between the different gospels in one of them the healing that is done is not any more that faith healers can pull off today seems to me that the early gospels weren t that compeling so the stories got bigger to appeal better niether was he a lunatic would more than an entire nation be drawn to someone who was crazy very doubtful in fact rediculous for example anyone who is drawn to david koresh is obviously a fool logical people see this right away therefore since he wasn t a liar or a lunatic he must have been the real thing or might not have existed or any number of things that is the logical pitfall that those who use flawed logic like this fall into there are bifurcations or tri quad etc that are valid because in the proceeding steps the person shows conclusively that the alternatives are all that are possible once everyone agrees that the given set is indeed all there are then arguments among the alternatives can be presentent and one mostly likely to be true can be deduced by excluding all other possible alternatives however if it can be shown that the set is not all inclusive then any conclusions bases on the incomplete set are invalid even if the true choice is one of the original choices i have given at least one valid alternative so the conclusion that jc is the real mccoy just because he isn t one of the other two alternative is no longer valid some other things to note he fulfilled loads of prophecies in the psalms isaiah and elsewhere in hrs alone this in his betrayal and crucifixion i don t have my bible with me at this moment next time i write i will use it jc was a rabbi he knew what those prophecies were it wouldn t be any great shakes to make sure one does a list of actions that would fullfill prophecy what would be compeling is if there were a set of clear and explicit prophecies and jc had absolutely no knowledge of then yet fullfilled them anyway i don t think most people understand what a christian is it is certainly not what i see a lot in churches rather i think it should be a way of life and a total sacrafice of everything for god s sake he loved us enough to die and save us so we should do the same hey we can t do it god himself inspires us to turn our lives over to him that s tuff and most people don t want to do it to be a real christian would be something for the strong to persevere at but just like weight lifting or guitar playing drums whatever it takes time we don t rush it in one day christianity is your whole life it is not going to church once a week or helping poor people once in a while we box everything into time units such as work at this time sports tv social life god is above these boxes and should be carried with us into all these boxes that we have created for ourselves here i agree with you anyone who buys into this load of mythology should take what it says seriously and what it says is that it must be a total way of life i have very little respect for xians that don t if the myth is true then it is true in its entirity the picking and choosing that i see a lot of leaves a bad taste in my mouth jim james l felder sverdrup technology inc phone nasa lewis research center cleveland ohio email jfelder lerc nasa gov some people drink from the fountain of knowledge other people gargle
alt.atheism	re some thoughts on fri apr gmt healta saturn wwc edu tammy r healy said trh i hope you re not going to flame him please give him the same coutesy you trh ve given me but you have been courteous and therefore received courtesy in return this person instead has posted one of the worst arguments i have ever seen made from the pro christian people i ve known several jesuits who would laugh in his face if he presented such an argument to them let s ignore the fact that it s not a true trilemma for the moment nice word maddi original or is it a real word and concentrate on the liar lunatic part the argument claims that no one would follow a liar let alone thousands of people look at l ron hubbard now he was probably not all there but i think he was mostly a liar and a con artist but look at how many thousands of people follow dianetics and scientology i think the baker s and swaggert along with several other televangelists lie all the time but look at the number of follower they have as for lunatics the best example is hitler he was obviously insane his advisors certainly thought so yet he had a whole country entralled and came close to ruling all of europe how many germans gave their lives for him to this day he has his followers i m just amazed that people still try to use this argument it s just so obviously wrong ed mccreary o edm twisto compaq com if it were not for laughter there would be no tao
alt.atheism	re thoughts on christians on apr gmt bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine said rb in article ofnwyg wb voa andrew cmu edu pl u andrew cmu edu patrick c leger writes ever hear of baptism at birth if that isn t preying on the young i don t know what is rb rb no that s praying on the young preying on the young comes rb later when the bright eyed little altar boy finds out what the rb priest really wears under that chasible the same thing scotsmen where under there kilt i ll never forget the day when i was about tweleve and accidently walked in on a roomfull of priests sitting around in their underware drinking beer and watching football kind of changed my opinion a bit they didn t seem so menacing after that ed mccreary o edm twisto compaq com if it were not for laughter there would be no tao
alt.atheism	re victims of various good fight s on apr f levels unisa edu au the desert brat said tdb disease introduced to brazilian oher s am tribes x million to be fair this was going to happen eventually given time the americans would have reached europe on their own and the same thing would have happened it was just a matter of who got together first ed mccreary o edm twisto compaq com if it were not for laughter there would be no tao
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article apr abo fi mandtbacka finabo abo fi mats andtbacka writes and these objective values are please be specific and more importantly motivate i ll take a wild guess and say freedom is objectively valuable yes but whose freedom the world in general doesn t seem to value the freedom of tibetans for example mathew
alt.atheism	re koresh is god the latest news seems to be that koresh will give himself up once he s finished writing a sequel to the bible mathew
alt.atheism	re where are they now a in article qi innf n senator bedfellow mit edu tcbruno athena mit edu tom bruno writes stuff deleted which brings me to the point of my posting how many people out there have been around alt atheism since i ve done my damnedest to stay on top of more stuff deleted hmm usenet got it s collective hooks into me around or so right after i switched to engineering i d say i started reading alt atheism around i ve probably not posted more than messages in the time since then though i ll never understand how people can find the time to write so much i can barely keep up as it is ed mccreary o edm twisto compaq com if it were not for laughter there would be no tao
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is reply to frank d s uucp frank o dwyer i m one of those people who does not know what the word objective means when put next to the word morality i assume its an idiom and cannot be defined by its separate terms give it a try objective morality is morality built from objective values from a dictionary of philosophy by anthony flew objectivism the belief that there are certain moral truths that would remain true whatever anyone or everyone thought or desired for instance no one should ever deliberately inflict pain on another simply to take pleasure in his suffering might be thought of as a plausible example even in a world of sadists who all rejected it the contention remains true just as remains correct even if there is no one left to count the problem for the objectivist is to determine the status of moral truths and the method by which they can be established if we accept that such judgements are not reports of what is but only relate to what ought to be see naturalistic fallacy then they cannot be proved by any facts about the nature of the world nor can they be analytic since this would involve lack of action guiding content one ought always to do the right thing is plainly true in virtue of the vords involved but it is unhelpful as a practical guide to action see analytic and synthetic at this point the objectivist may talk of self evident truths but can he deny the subjectivist s claim that self evidence is in the mind of the beholder if not what is left of the claim that some moral judgements are true the subjectivist may well feel that all that remains is that there are some moral judgements with which he would wish to associate himself to hold a moral opinion is he suggests not to know something to be true but to have preferences regarding human activity david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire wi this is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities bertrand russell
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie in article apr st andrews ac uk nrp st andrews ac uk norman r paterson writes i don t think you re right about germany my daughter was born there and i don t think she has any german rights eg to vote or live there beyond the rights of all ec citizens she is a british citizen by virtue of her parentage but that s not full citizenship for example i don t think her children could be british by virtue of her in the same way i am fairly sure that she could obtain citizenship by making an application for it it might require immigration to germany but i am almost certain that once applied for citizenship is inevitable in this case more interesting is your sentence in fact many people try to come to the us to have their children born here so that they will have some human rights how does the us compare to an islamic country in this respect do people go to iran so their children will have some human rights would you more interesting only for your propaganda purposes i have said several times now that i don t consider iran particularly exemplary as a good islamic state we might talk about the rights of people in capitalist secular third world countries to give other examples of the lack of rights in third world countries broadly say for example central american secular capitalist countries whose govt s the us supports but who amnesty international has pointed out are human rights vacua gregg
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes in article c jxru t news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes what do you base your belief on atheism on your knowledge and reasoning couldn t that be wrong actually my atheism is based on ignorance ignorance of the existence of any god don t fall into the atheists don t believe because of their pride mistake how do you know it s based on ignorance couldn t that be wrong why would it be wrong to fall into the trap that you mentioned also if i may what the heck where we talking about and why didn t i keep some comments on there to see what the line of thoughts were mac bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea michael a cobb and i won t raise taxes on the middle university of illinois class to pay for my programs champaign urbana bill clinton rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu with new taxes and spending cuts we ll still have billion dollar deficits
alt.atheism	re koresh is god on fri apr mathew mathew mantis co uk said m the latest news seems to be that koresh will give himself up once he s m finished writing a sequel to the bible also it s the th now can the feds get him on tax evasion i don t remember hearing about him running to the post office last night ed mccreary o edm twisto compaq com if it were not for laughter there would be no tao
alt.atheism	re the pope is jewish west next cville wam umd edu stilgar writes the pope is jewish i always thought that the pope was a bear you know because of that little saying does a bear shit in the woods is the pope catholic there must be some connection between those two lines
alt.atheism	re bible quiz in article kmr po cwru edu kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes in article qgbmt c f usenet ins cwru edu cr cleveland freenet edu frank d kirschner writes only when the sun starts to orbit the earth will i accept the bible since when does atheism mean trashing other religions there must be a god of inbreeding to which you are his only son pope john paul
alt.atheism	re islamic authority over women benedikt rosenau i dbstu rz tu bs de wrote when the object of their belief is said to be perfect and make the believers act in a certain way and we observe that they don t we have a contradiction something defined contradictorily cannot exist that what the believe in does not exist secondly there are better explanations for why they believe than the existence of the object of their belief have you read the faq already benedikt benedikt i can t recall anyone claiming that god makes anyone act a particlar way i think that you re attempting to manufacture a contradiction god is said to require certain behavior but the only compulsion is the believer s sense of duty a standard of conduct does exist but we are free to ignore it or misunderstand it or distort it in whatever ways we find convenient but our response to god s edicts can in no way be used to question god s existence the behavior of believers is a completely separate question from that of god s existence there is nothing contradictory here to say that something defined contadictorily cannot exist is really asking too much you would have existence depend on grammar all you can really say is that something is poorly defined but that in itself is insufficient to decide anything other than confusion of course your point that there are better reasons for the phenomenon of belief than the object of belief may lead to a rat s nest of unnecessary complexity i think i know what you re implying but i d like to see your version of this better alternative just the same bill
alt.atheism	re islamic authority over women scott d sauyet ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu wrote regardless of people s hidden motivations the stated reasons for many wars include religion of course you can always claim that the real reason was economics politics ethnic strife or whatever but the fact remains that the justification for many wars has been to conquer the heathens if you want to say for instance that economics was the chief cause of the crusades you could certainly make that point but someone could come along and demonstrate that it was really something else in the same manner you show that it was really not religion you could in this manner eliminate all possible causes for the crusades scott i don t have to make outrageous claims about religion s affecting and effecting history for the purpsoe of a a all i have to do point out that many claims made here are wrong and do nothing to validate atheism at no time have i made any statement that religion was the sole cause of anything what i have done is point out that those who do make that kind of claim are mistaken usually deliberately to credit religion with the awesome power to dominate history is to misunderstand human nature the function of religion and of course history i believe that those who distort history in this way know exaclty what they re doing and do it only for affect bill
alt.atheism	re some thoughts james felder spbach lerc nasa gov wrote logic alert argument from incredulity just because it is hard for you to believe this doesn t mean that it isn t true liars can be very pursuasive just look at koresh that you yourself cite this is whole basis of a great many here rejecting the christian account of things in the words of st madalyn murrey o hair face it folks it s just silly why is it okay to disbelieve because of your incredulity if you admit that it s a fallacy bill
alt.atheism	re some thoughts kent sandvik sandvik newton apple com wrote in article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine wrote someone spank me if i m wrong but didn t lord liar or lunatic originate with c s lewis who s this campollo fellow anyway i do think so and isn t there a clear connection with the i do believe because it is absurd notion by one of the original christians origen there is a similar statement attributed to anselm i believe so that i may understand in both cases reason is somewhat less exalted than anyone posting here could accept which means that neither statement can be properly analysed in this venue bill
alt.atheism	re thoughts on christians ed mccreary edm twisto compaq com wrote on apr gmt bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine said rb in article ofnwyg wb voa andrew cmu edu pl u andrew cmu edu patrick c leger writes ever hear of baptism at birth if that isn t preying on the young i don t know what is rb rb no that s praying on the young preying on the young comes rb later when the bright eyed little altar boy finds out what the rb priest really wears under that chasible does this statement further the atheist cause in some way surely it s not intended as wit bill
alt.atheism	re thoughts on christians kent sandvik sandvik newton apple com wrote this is a good point but i think average people do not take up christianity so much out of fear or escapism but quite simply as a way to improve their social life or to get more involved with american culture if they are kids of immigrants for example since it is the overwhelming major religion in the western world in some form or other it is simply the choice people take if they are bored and want to do something new with their lives but not somethong too new or too out of the ordinary seems a little weak but as long as it doesn t hurt anybody the social pressure is indeed a very important factor for the majority of passive christians in our world today in the case of early christianity the promise of a heavenly afterlife independent of your social status was also a very promising gift reason slaves and non romans accepted the religion very rapidly if this is a hypothetical proposition you should say so if it s fact you should cite your sources if all this is the amateur sociologist sub branch of a a however it would suffice to alert the unwary that you are just screwing around bill
alt.atheism	re nicknames maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com wrote jcopelan nyx cs du edu the one and only writes we could start with those posters who annoy us the most like bobby or bill your wish is my command bill shit stirrer connor bobby circular mozumder i m not sure my new nom d net is exactly appropriate but it comes very close considering what i have to wade through before i make one of my insightful dead on the money repsonses i have to agree that something s getting stirred up i would like to believe my characterization of what i respond to would be kinder though but if you insist i am also surprised to find that i have offended anyone but in some cases it s unavoidable if i am to say anything at all for those to whom fairness is important check out my contributions haven t i been most generous and patient a veritable paragon of gentility oh btw i don t mind being paired with bobby i admire his tenacity how many of you would do as well in this hostile environment you think i m offensive read your own posts love and kisses bill p s my name is conner not connor no point in humiliating the innocents
alt.atheism	re islamic authority over women keith m ryan kmr po cwru edu wrote nice cop out bill i m sure you re right but i have no idea to what you refer would you mind explaining how i copped out bill
alt.atheism	re death penalty was re political atheists this is fascinating atheists argue for abortion defend homosexuality as a means of population control insist that the only values are biological and condemn war and capital punishment according to benedikt if something is contardictory it cannot exist which in this case means atheists i suppose i would like to understand how an atheist can object to war an excellent means of controlling population growth or to capital punishment i m sorry but the logic escapes me and why just capital punishment what is being questioned here the propriety of killing or of punishment what is the basis of the ecomplaint bill
alt.atheism	re americans and evolution robert singleton bobs thnext mit edu wrote sure it isn t mutually exclusive but it lends weight to i e increases notional running estimates of the posterior probability of the atheist s pitch in the partition and thus necessarily reduces the same quantity in the theist s pitch this is because the divine component falls prey to ockham s razor the phenomenon being satisfactorily explained without it and there being no independent evidence of any such component more detail in the next post occam s razor is not a law of nature it is way of analyzing an argument even so it interesting how often it s cited here and to what end it seems odd that religion is simultaneously condemned as being primitive simple minded and unscientific anti intellectual and childish and yet again condemned as being too complex occam s razor the scientific explanation of things being much more straightforeward and apparently simpler which is it to be which is the non essential and how do you know considering that even scientists don t fully comprehend science due to its complexity and diversity maybe william of occam has performed a lobotomy kept the frontal lobe and thrown everything else away this is all very confusing i m sure one of you will straighten me out tough bill
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes ok you have disproved one thing but you failed to nail me see nowhere in my post did i claim that something must be believed in here are the three possibilities god exists god does not exist i don t know my attack was on strong atheism since i am i guess by what you said below that makes me a weak atheist snip first of all you seem to be a reasonable guy why not try to be more honest and include my sentence afterwards that honest it just ended like that i swear hmmmm i recognize the warning signs alternating polite and rude coming into newsgroup with huge chip on shoulder calls people names and then makes nice whirrr click whirrr clam bake timmons bill shit stirrer connor q e d whirr click whirr frank o dwyer might also be contained in that shell pop stack to determine whirr click whirr killfile keith allen schneider frank closet theist o dwyer the mind reels maybe they re all bobby mozumder maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com centigram communications corp san jose california kids please don t try this at home remember i post professionally
alt.atheism	re death penalty was re political athei in article apr abo fi mandtbacka finabo abo fi mats andtbacka writes in o rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew writes i wonder if noam chomsky is reading this i could be wrong but is he actually talking about outright government control of the media aka censorship if he doesn t any quick one stop shopping reference to his works that ll tell me in short what he does argue for manufacturing consent a film about the media you alternative movie source may have this or to book it in your local alternative theatre contact films transit international sales jan rofekamp notre dame e montreal quebec canada h y c tel fax telex filmtransmtl us readers call zeitgeist films at s shamim mohamed uunet noao cmcl arizona shamim shamim cs arizona edu take this cross and garlic here s a mezuzah if he s jewish a page of the koran if he s a muslim and if he s a zen buddhist you re on your own member of the league for programming freedom write to lpf uunet uu net
alt.atheism	re requests in article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes from bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine subject re requests date apr gmt in article c qllg bc mailer cc fsu edu mayne cs fsu edu writes excess stuff deleted however it seems that a local church elder has been getting revelations from god about a devastating quake scheduled to level the area on may rd he has independent corroboration from several friends who apparently have had similar revelations the quake was in fact in response to a request from the lot of them seeking a sign from god on the veracity of their visions none of this would be terribly interesting except for the amount of stir it has created in the area many many people are taking these claims very seriously there are some making plans to be out of the are on the target date my local religious radio station devoted hours of discussion on the topic i even called up during one of the live broadcasts to tell the host that he would have a full account of my conversion on may th provided my family and i survived the devastation and ruin that will invariably follow the quake bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea i know of a similar incident about years ago a climatologist ithink that was his profession named iben browning predicted that an earthquake would hit the new madrid fault on dec some schools in missouri that were on the fault line actually cancelled school for the day many people evacuated new madrid and other towns in teh are i wouldn t be suprised if there were more journalists in the area than residents of course teh earthquake never occured how do i know about his i used to live in southern illinois and the lican middle school was built directly on the fault line no we still had school we laughed at the poor idiots who believed the prediction bob if you re wanting an excuse to convert to christianity you gonna have to look elsewhere tammy no trim healy
alt.atheism	re studies on book of mormon in article snx enkidu mic cl agrino enkidu mic cl andres grino brandt writes from agrino enkidu mic cl andres grino brandt subject studies on book of mormon date sun apr cst hi i don t know much about mormons and i want to know about serious independent studies about the book of mormon i don t buy the official story about the gold original taken to heaven but haven t read the book of mormon by myself i have to much work learning biblical hebrew i will appreciate any comment about the results of study in style vocabulary place names internal consistency and so on for example there is evidence for one writer or multiple writers there are some mention about events places or historical persons later discovered by archeologist yours in collen andres grino brandt casilla santiago agrino enkidu mic cl chile no hay mas realidad que la realidad y la razon es su profeta i don t think the book of mormon was supposedly translated from biblical hebrew i ve read that prophet joseph smith traslated the gold tablets from some sort of egyptian ish language former mormons please post tammy no trim healy
alt.atheism	re societal basis for morality in article c prv ni news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb wrote we have to expect others to follow our notion of societally mandated morality pardon the extremism but couldn t i murder your brother and say that i was exercising my rights as i saw them was doing what felt good didn t want anyone forcing their morality on me or i don t follow your morality good statement should we apply empirical measurements to define exact social morals should morals be based on social rules on ancient religious doctrines it seems there will never be a common and single denominator for defining morals and as such defining absolute and objective morals is doomed to fail as long as humans have this incredible talent of creative thinking cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re genocide is caused by atheism in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice wrote fred the problem with such reasoning is that for us non believers we need a better measurement tool to state that person a is a real muslim christian while person b is not as i know there are no such tools and anyone could believe in a religion misuse its power and otherwise make bad pr it clearly shows the sore points with religion in other words show me a movement that can t spin off khomeinis stalins davidians husseins i don t think such a system exists i think the reason for that is an condition known as free will we humans have got it anybody using their free will can tell lies and half truths about any system and thus abuse it for their own ends i don t think such tools exist either in addition there s no such thing as objective information all together it looks like religion and any doctrines could be freely misused to whatever purpose this all reminds me of descartes whispering deamon you can t trust anything so why bother cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re free moral agency in article c pxqs lm darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner wrote as for your question of moral free agency given the christian position above the freedom we have is to acknowledge god the morality we practice is a direct outgrowth of how we excercise that freedom you are free to ignore god in the same way you are free to ignore gravity and the consequences are inevitable and well known in both cases that an atheist can t accept the evidence means only that he prefers not to accept it it says nothing about the evidence itself i agree i had a hard feeling not believing my grand grand mother who told me of elves dancing outside barns in the early mornings i preferred not to accept it even if her statement provided the truth itself life is hard cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article c qt p mvo blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee wrote in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes i think many reading this group would also benefit by knowing how deviant the view as i ve articulated it above which may not be the true view of khomeini is from the basic principles of islam from the point ov view of an atheist i see you claim khomeini wasn t practicing true islam but i m sure that he would have said the same about you how am i a member of neither group supposed to be able to tell which one of you two is really a true muslim fred rice answered this already in an early posting the problem with your argument is that you do not know who is a real believer and who may be faking it this is something known only by the person him herself and god your assumption that anyone who claims to be a believer is a believer is not necessarily true in other words it seems that nobody could define who is a true and false muslim we are back to square one khomeini and hussein are still innocent and can t be defined as evil or good islamic worshippers cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re islamic authority over women in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice wrote the problem with your argument is that you do not know who is a real believer and who may be faking it this is something known only by the person him herself and god your assumption that anyone who claims to be a believer is a believer is not necessarily true so that still leaves the door totally open for khomeini hussein et rest they could still be considered true muslims and you can t judge them because this is something between god and the person you have to apply your rule as well with atheists agnostics you don t know their belief this is something between them and god so why the hoopla about khomeini not being a real muslim and the hoopla about atheists being not real human beings cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re suggestion for resources faq date mon apr gmt from bruce stephens bruce liverpool ac uk i think a good book summarizing and comparing religions would be good i confess i don t know of any indeed that s why i checked the faq to see if it had one but i m sure some alert reader does i think the list of books suffers far too much from being christian based i agree that most of the traffic is of this nature although a few islamic references might be good but i still think an overview would be nice one book i have which presents a fairly unbiased account of many religions is called man s religions by john b noss it was a textbook in a class i had on comparative religion or some such thing it has some decent bibliographies on each chapter as a jumping off point for further reading it doesn t compare religions directly but describes each one individually and notes a few similarities but nothing i have read in it could be even remotely described as preachy or christian based in fact christianity mercifully consumes only or so of its nearly pages the book is divided according to major regions of the world where the biggies began india east asia near east there is nothing about new world religions from the aztecs mayas incas etc just the stuff people kill each other over nowadays and a few of the older religions snuffed out along the way if you like the old stuff then a couple of books called the ancient near east by james b pritchard are pretty cool got the epic of gilgamesh code of hammurabi all the stuff from way back when men were gods and gods were men essential reading for anyone who wishes to make up their own religion and make it sound real good
alt.atheism	re amusing atheists and agnostics date apr gmt from bake timmons timmbake mcl ucsb edu my my there are a few atheists with time on their hands ok first i apologize i didn t bother reading the faq first and so fired an imprecise flame that was inexcusable how about the nickname bake flamethrower timmons you weren t at the koresh compound around noon today by any chance were you remember koresh dried for your sins and pass that beef jerky umm umm
alt.atheism	re objective values v scientific accuracy was re after years can we say that christian morality is in article s rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew mathew mantis co uk wrote lpzsml unicorn nott ac uk steve lang writes values can also refer to meaning for example in computer science the value of is true and is false not in lisp true all you need to define is one statement that defined one polarity and all the other states are considered the other polarity then again what is the meaning of nil false or true cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re it s all mary s fault dfuller portal hq videocart com dave fuller writes nice attempt chris verrry close you missed the conspiracy by step joseph knew who knocked her up he couldn t let it be known that somebody else got ol mary prego that wouldn t do well for his popularity in the local circles so what happened is that she was feeling guilty he was feeling embarrassed and they decided to improve both of their images on what could have otherwise been the downfall for both clever indeed come to think of it i have gained a new respect for the couple maybe joseph and mary should receive all of the praise being paid to jesus lucky for them that the baby didn t have any obvious deformities i could just see it now mary gets pregnant out of wedlock so to save face she and joseph say that it was god that got her pregnant and then the baby turns out to be deformed or even worse stillborn they d have a lot of explaining to do dave buckminster fuller how is that one o keeper of the nicknames nanci if you know and are sure of the author of this quote please send me email nm w andrew cmu edu life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh
alt.atheism	re islam and scientific predictions was in article c l fv h r ra nrl navy mil khan itd itd nrl navy mil umar khan writes how would a man of th century arabia have known what not to include in the holy qur an assuming he had authored it so now we re judging the qur an by what s not in it how many mutton headed arguments am i going to have to wade through today lots of other books have been written on this subject those books can speak far more eloquently than i one would hope bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article apr bnr ca rashid writes p s i m not sure about this but i think the charge of shatim also applies to rushdie and may be encompassed under the umbrella of the fasad ruling please define the words shatim and fasad before you use them again john david munch jmunch hertz elee calpoly edu the heart can change be full of hate or love if people are allowed to base their lives through their hearts anything can happen a dangerous situation in my opinion bobby mozumder describing problems with atheism
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie re an anecdote about islam in article apr cs nott ac uk eczcaw mips nott ac uk c wainwright writes in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes the authorities i am referring to is the authority of the world islamic community over itself my point was simply that islamic law does apply to muslims wherever they are despite the fact that islamic law may not be enforcable in non islamic countries muslims residing in the uk may decide to be tried or whatever by the islamic community but their rulings have no legal consequences in these isles it s not really their decision to be tried the rulings do have legal consequences but only in islamic law and not in uk law this should be obvious enforcing a judgment is distinct from the making of a judgment take for example the judgments of the world court this is an internationally recognized tribunal whose judgments often have no physical or economic effect but which are important despite the fact that their judgments cannot be enforced the person may be excommunicated or similar but if it decided to mete out violent laws such as the fatwa then it would be breaking uk laws itself and the persons doing such would be liable to prosecution of course have you read any of this thread before this post to ignore the country s laws in preference to religious laws which are not indigenous to the country in question is an absurd and arrogant notion of course it is a sort of anarchism anarchism is explicitly against islam thank you for your well reasoned response but it is beside the points i ve been making in this thread gregg
alt.atheism	re jewish settlers demolish a mosque in gaza in c iwxm g z news chalmers se d bertil dtek chalmers se bertil jonell writes in article kutluk ccl umist ac uk kutluk ccl umist ac uk kutluk ozguven writes atheists are not mentioned in the quran because from a quranic point of view and a minute s reasoning one can see that there is no such thing but there are people who say that they are atheists if they aren t atheists what are they when the quran uses the word din it means way of individual thinking behaving communal order and protocols based on a set of beliefs this is often interpreted as the much weaker term religion the atheists are not mentioned in the quran along with jews mushriqin christians etc because the latter are all din to have a din you need a set of beliefs assumptions etc to forma a social code for example the marxist have those such as history conflict etc that they do not put idols sometimes they did to represent those assuptions does not mean they are any different from the other mushriq or roughly polytheists there cannot be social atheism because when there is a community that community needs common ideas or standard beliefs to coordinate the society when they inscribe assumptions say nation or progress is the natural consequence of human activity or parlamentarian democracy is doubtlessly the best way of government however they individually insist they do not have gods from the quranic point of view they do therefore by definition atheism does not exist we are a atheist society in fact means we reject the din other than ours atheism can only exist when people reject all the idols gods dogmas suppositions of the society that they part and in that case that is a personal deviation of belief and quran tells about such deviations and disbelief but as i mentioned from a quranic point of looking at things there is no atheism in the macro level i think it took more than one minute kutluk
alt.atheism	nostalgia the recent rise of nostalgia in this group combined with the incredible level of utter bullshit has prompted me to comb through my archives and pull out some of the best of alt atheism for your reading pleasure i ll post a couple of these a day unless group concensus demands that i stop or i run out of good material i haven t been particularly careful in the past about saving attributions i think the following comes from john a johnson but someone correct me if i m wrong this is probably the longest of my entire collection so that the prophecy be fulfilled in considering the christian religion and judging it according to its claims it is important to look at its claims at fulfilling earlier jewish prophecy the scribe matthew is perhaps the most eager to draw out what he thinks are prophetic answers in the career of jesus of nazareth as you will see matthew s main strategy is to take various old testament passages often not even about the promised messiah and apply them to the circumstances in the new testament we must also bear in mind the question of the authenticity of the accounts since the gospels were written at least years after jesus was executed we do not know how much happened exactly as stated but for purposes of analysis we will take particular claims at face value immanuel we begin of course at the beginning mt mary will bear a son and you joseph will name him jesus which means g d is salvation for he will save his people from their sins all this happened to fulfil what the lord had spoken by a prophet isaiah in the days of ahaz c bce king of judah rezin of syria and pekah of israel made war on jerusalem capitol of judah but could not quite conquer it when the house of david i e ahaz and his court in judah were told of this its heart and the heart of its people shook and the lord g d said to isaiah go to meet with ahaz and the lord spoke to ahaz through prophet isaiah naturally saying ask a sign of g d your lord it can be as deep as sheol or as high as heaven but ahaz said i won t ask i will not put the lord to a test then isaiah said hear then o house of david is it not enough for you to weary men that you must weary my god too therefore the lord himself will give you a sign behold a young woman is with child and will bear a son and name him immanuel which means g d is with us he will eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse evil and choose good for before the child knows how to refuse evil and choose good the land of the two kings you dread will have been deserted matthew homes in on just the sentence that is in italics further he the hebrew word almah young woman as specifically virgin but this is not a prophecy about the messiah it is not a prophecy about an event to happen years later it is not a prophecy about a virgin bethulah mother in short it not about jesus matthew has made use of a verse out of context and tries to make it fit the specific case of mary it should be noted that if we want to read the prophecy in a general manner a very general one it can be made to fit mary mary virgin or not was indeed a young woman with child of course the fit is shady and has problems jesus while thought of by later christians to be g d walking among men was never called by the name immanuel if christianity wished to claim this prophecy for jesus it becomes at best a cut and paste prophecy a second class prophecy not too convincing egypt after jesus s birth in bethlehem matthew tells about a quick and elsewhere unmentioned excursion to egypt as if he wishes to liken jesus to moses this was done to escape an alleged infanticidal rampage of the king herod mt and remained there until the death of herod this was to fulfil what the lord had spoken out of egypt i have cal led my son what the lord really said was this hosea when israel was a child i loved him and out of egypt i called my son the more i called them my people the more they went from me they kept sacrificing to the ba als and kept burning incense to idols matthew conveniently omits the rest of hosea s oracle but it was indeed israel that once called out of egypt wanted to return this is history jesus is certainly not being spoken of here and if we are to draw some kind of parallel here we wind up with a jesus that flees and resists g d again this prophecy is just not as convincing as matthew probably had hoped rachel weeps while jesus is off vacationing in egypt matthew says that king herod sought to kill him and thus ordered the executions of all young male children matthew then writes mt by this that which was spoken by the prophet jeremiah was fulfilled a voice was heard in ramah wailing and loud lamentation rachel weeping for her children she refused to be consoled because they were no more the reference is to a passage in jeremiah referring to the carrying off of israel into exile by sargon of assyria in bce rachel the ancestor of the major tribes of israel ephraim and manasseh is said to weep for her descendants who are no more it is metaphorical of course since rachel lived and dies before the hebrews were even in the egyptian exile it is interesting to note that it was leah not rachel who was the ancestor of the judeans the land where jesus and bethlehem were if anyone should do weeping for her children it is leah the only connexion that rachel has with bethlehem is that the legends have it that she was buried north of the city on the way to ephrath bethlehem as for herod and his infanticide it is rather unlikely that such an event actually occurred one never knows but the event is not mentioned or alluded to anywhere else in the bible nor is it mentioned in any of the secular records of the time herod was particularly unliked in his reign and many far less evil deeds of herod were carefully recorded this might be a prime example of how events were added to jesus s life to enhance the message of the church s gospel because of the whole story s similarity to the tale of the infant moses in egypt it is highly likely that it is a device set up by matthew to add prophetic yet artificial approval of jesus it is not surprising that matthew conveniently neglects to mention the rest of the jeremiah quote the children the prophet speaks of are not dead but exiled in the assyrian empire g d comforts the weeping rachel saying that the children will be returned he will gather them back together of course this would not suit matthew s purpose as the children he speaks of are dead for good again the prophecy matthew sets up is not even that and to anyone who bothers to check it out is not too convincing the nazarene we do not even have to go to the next chapter to find another matthean prophecy after leaving egypt joseph wife take the infant jesus to live in the city of nazareth mt that what was spoken of by the prophets might be fulfilled he shall be called a nazarene first thing we notice is that matthew does not mention the name of the prophet s this time second we have to ask who he is there are no messianic prophecies speaking of a nazarene worse there are no prophecies period mentioning a nazarene still worse there are no nazarenes mentioned in the old testament at all in the book of judges an angel tells samson s mother that she will judges conceive and bear a son no razor shall tough his head for he will be a nazirite to his god from the day of his birth he will deliver israel from the hands of the philistines this is of course not a prophecy of jesus or the messiah of g d but it is the best that can be found obviously matthew has begun to go overboard in cut and paste prophecies in that he is simple making them up now bearing our diseases jesus next goes around healing people of physical illnesses and disabilities mt this was to fulfil what was spoken by the prophet isaiah he took our infirmities and bore our diseases as expected the verse quoted in isaiah is quoted out of context and a few words are skewed to fit the christian scheme we have is surely he the suffering servant has borne our sickness and carried our pains from a reading of the surrounding passages in isaiah we know that the prophet is speaking in present tense of the collective nation of israel jehovah s chosen servant and people he speaks to the israelites suffering in exile in the voice of the gentile nations that look upon it this image is deeply ingrained in jewish identity an image of a chastised yet cherished israel as the instrument of the nations salvation by g d the verses speak of israel taking on the sicknesses which are the literal and metaphorical manifestations of guilt and discipline they do not speak of a servant going around and healing people notice that the servant in isaiah takes on the sicknesses and pains of the nations and individual jews jesus as we all know did not take the diseases onto himself the verses here in isaiah are not a prophecy of something to come but rather something that had already happened while it is believed that jesus took on the eternal punishment of hell he did not bear the illnesses he healed so while someone might want to say that figuratively jesus reenacted the deeds of israel in his spiritual atonement he has to admit that matthew s parallel misses where he intended it to have its effect silent messiah upon healing multitudes of commoners it is said that jesus ordered them to keep quiet presumable so that he wouldn t arouse the attention of the local rulers mt this was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet isaiah behold my servant whom i have chosen my beloved with whom my soul is pleased i will put my spirit on him and he will announce justice to the gentiles he will not wrangle or cry aloud nor will anyone hear his voice in the streets he will not break a bruised reed or quench a smoldering wick until he brings justice to victory and the gentiles will hope in his name the isaiah passage quoted reads is behold my servant whom i uphold my chosen in whom my soul delights i have put my spirit on him and he will bring forth justice to the nations we will not cry or lift up his voice or make it heard in the street he will not break a bruised reed or quench a smoldering wick he will faithfully bring forth justice he will not fail burn dimly or be discouraged bruised until he has established justice in the earth and the coastlands await his law you see matthew has conveniently left out part of the passage because it does not suit the dealings of jesus christians could never think of jesus failing never would the light of mankind burn dimly but the servant nation of israel will indeed come to an end when its job is done when the gentiles come to embrace g d there will no longer be a chosen people but rather all will be the children of g d also the ending phrase has been changed from the judaic the coastlands await his law to the christologic the gentiles will hope in his name while the original proclaims the torah law of jehovah the other rewrites it to fit its strange doctrine of believing in the name if one has any doubt the servant referred to is not jesus one has only to read the whole chapter isaiah and hear about the beloved but blind and imperfect servant a people robbed and plundered so we see that when matthew s attempt at prophecy is examined it crumbles three days and three nights now we come upon a prophecy supposedly uttered by the very mouth of the god jesus himself he speaks of his crucifixion and resurrection mt for as jonah was in the belly of the whale for three days and three nights so will the son of man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights before any further discussion can occur it is necessary to know how the jews understood days as far as day names went each was hours long lasting from sunset pm to the following sunset pm what was referred to as a day was the period of light from am to the ending sunset at pm thus according to our time scale a sabbath day began at pm friday evening and lasted until pm saturday evening this is why the jews celebrate their sabbath on the daylight portion of saturdays instead of sundays it seems like a real miracle that christians didn t forget that saturday was indeed the seventh and last day of the week thus when days and nights are referred to together hour daylight portions and hour night periods are being spoken of thus jesus says that he will be in the grave or in hell or otherwise unresurrected for three days and three nights as the good book tells us jesus was crucified on the ninth hour which is pm friday afternoon he then was put into the grave sometime after that then jesus left the grave rose before dawn of what we call sunday the dawn after the sabbath was over what this means is that jesus was using our time for clarity in the grave from pm friday night to some time before am sunday morning we could also add a little time before pm friday since the bible is not specific here what this means using jewish time is that he was in the grave for one day two nights and possibly a couple of hours of one day certainly this is a problem for jesus prediction there is absolutely no way we are even able to have his death involve three days and three nights even using modern time measurements we then are led to suspect that this error is another one of matthew s little mistakes and that the gospel writer put false words into his god s mouth and no matter who made the prediction it is more than unconvincing it is counter convincing hearing understanding jesus tool on a habit of speaking to his vast audiences in parables stories in which a deeper meaning could be found if you were already one of the elect those chosen to understand the message of jesus he reasons that those who can understand the parables are the ones he wants if the people cannot understand them there is no need to bother with them since they will not accept the plain message any better matthew says mt with them the audience indeed in fulfilled the prophecy of isaiah which says you will indeed hear but never understand and you will indeed see but never perceive because this people s heart has grown dull their ears are heavy of hearing and they have shut their eyes so the they would not perceive with them her with their ears and understand with their heart and turn for me to heal them the original isaiah passages are part of his earlier works his call to the ministry this is in bce when israel is flourishing right before it falls under the authority of assyria isaiah sees the good times ending and also a vision from g d calling him to bring reform to israel and judah is and g d said go and say to this people hear and hear but do not understand see and see but do not perceive make the heart of this people fat make their ears heavy and shut their eyes so they will not see with their eyes or hear with their ears and understand with their hearts and turn and be healed then isaiah said how long lord and he said until the cities lie waste without inhabitant and houses without men and the land is utterly desolate and the g ds take men far away and forsaken places are many in the land and though a tenth will remain in it it will be burned again like a terebinth or an oak whose stump still stands when the tree is felled the holy seed is its stump here we see that it is really g d who causes the people of israel to stop listening to the prophet s warnings but reaffirms the promise made to solomon s and david s seed lineage if you read the rest of isaiah you find that this is done to fulfil the plan of g d to use israel as a servant a light to the nations look at isaiah we see that matthew has cut and pasted just a little portion of isaiah s verse to suit his own gospel needs more than that he has altered the words to make it fit the people who didn t understand jesus s stories and as we see isaiah s verses are not prophecies but rather commands from g d to him in the present once again matthew s prophecy falls flat on its face matthew tries again to make jesus s parables look like they have the prophetic approval mt he said nothing to them without a parable this was to fulfil what was spoken of by the prophet i will open my mouth to them in parables i will utter that which has been hidden since the foundation of the world matthew really botches up here he attempts to quote not from a prophet but from the psalms ps i will open my mouth in parable i will utter dark sayings of old things that we all have heard and known things that our fathers have told us we will not hide them from their children but tell to the coming generation the glorious deeds of the lord as was pointed out the verses in the psalms do not really come from a prophet you might also want to know that earlier copies of matthew s gospel even inserted isaiah s name as this prophet apparently later scribes caught the error and tried to cover some of it up perhaps the most significant part of this is that once again matthew has altered the old testament scriptures as jesus has said earlier he speaks in parables so that some will not understand them the parables in the psalms are not to be hidden further they speak of things known that our fathers have told us jesus deals with things hidden since the foundation of the world indeed jesus dealt in a lot of secrecy and confusion this is in direct opposition to the parables in the psalms no wonder matthew had to rewrite them and still once again matthew s artificial prophecies fall flat on their face but christians rarely look at this matthew s prophecies aren t the only things about christianity that are beginning to look bad excuses of little faith in mt we see that the disciples are able to go around casting out demons except in one case not knowing what epilepsy was the people thought those with the disease were possesed with demons it is no wonder that the disciples were unable to dispossess the epileptic but jesus perhaps no more enlightened than they is reported to have rebuked them saying they didn t have enough faith this seems strange why was this demon special it seems that either a true believer has faith or he does not apparently enough faith will allow someone to move mountains of course you will find no one these days that can move real mountains no one parts seas the only miracles the charismatics can speak of are those rumoured to happen on trips to mexico or some faraway place major miracles are making some old woman s arthritis feel better on sunday morning t v and the gods including jesus are always shrouded in ancient lore and writings protected from the skeptics in their sacred pasts they are either dead sleeping or hiding in heaven with people rumouring about their imminent return and their great miracles of days long gone yet life goes on tales of mystics stories of miracles all in a distant time or a distant place gods used to reveal themselves to men in the old days jehovah too but now they are silent all the theologians give are various excuses as to why we don t get to see god anymore we re too lazy we re not zealous enough we re sinful it s just his plan we put too many of our own demands on g d s appearance if we had the right faith if we were willing to meet g d on his terms yet even the most pious of men have not seen g d you dear reader have not seen g d not literally you know that to be true i know that s presumptuous and bold but searching your heart you know what i mean all that we ve seen religions do is make people feel good and content about not seeing g d they say our little faith does not merit us to see g d sometimes they say see the love in these people you worship with see the lives of people change that is seeing g d thus people get lulled to sleep satisfied with turning g d into the everyday sights but that is not seeing g d as i am speaking of it is not seeing g d the way people used to see what we see in the world that is good is the compassion of human hearts the love given and taken by men and women the forgiveness practised by christian atheist alike beauty created by the mind of man these are the things that are done these are what we see but it is said this is so only because everybody has little faith jesus rides on an ass shortly after accepting the role of the jewish messiah king jesus requests a donkey be brought in for him to ride into jerusalem mt this took place to fulfil what was spoken by the prophet saying tell the daughter of zion behold your king is coming to you humble mounted on an ass and on a ass colt of course the passage quoted from zechariah reads a little differently lo your king comes to you he is triumphant and victorious humble and riding on an ass on an ass colt he will command peace to the nations there isn t all that much difference here except that zechariah only involves one animal an ass colt while matthew reads the poetic wording slightly differently thus he has jesus call for both a colt and an adult ass from matthew s version we get a comical picture of the divine christ sweating it to straddle two donkeys this could inevitably lead to a theological proctological dilemma we find that in the account written earlier by st mark only the colt was called for and brought to jesus this indeed fits the verses of zechariah properly and shows us that in matthew attempt to use prophetic verses he has bungled now excluding many respectable christians i have met i have noticed that while christ is thought to have ridden on asses the situation is often reversed nowadays then entering the jerusalem temple the priests were angered at people and youngsters calling jesus the messiah but jesus replied as we might expect matthew to have done mt haven t you read out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou has brought perfect praise it is more likely that matthew made this response up since jesus was never one to point out such little prophetic things and since as we might expect the quote is in error which seems to fit matthew s track record quite well we might ask jesus or matthew haven t you read for the source reads psalms o yahweh our lord how majestic is your name in the whole world you whose glory is chanted above the heavens by babes and infants you have founded a bulwark against your foes to still the enemy and the avenger the passages hardly need comment there is no perfect praise spoken of in the psalm and what praise is there is given to g d not his messiah king and not jesus as mentioned it seems to be just one more case of matthew s pen making up convenient prophetic scripture yhvh said to my lord jesus is said to have asked from whom the promised jewish messiah king is to be descended the jews agree it is king david but then jesus counters by quoting psalms the lord said to my lord sit at my right hand until i put your enemies under your feet taken at face value jesus is denying the necessity of davidic descent one assumes he is in opposition to their answer of course the christian answer is that he agrees but is trying to make some hidden point to reveal some mystery about the divine nature of the messiah king it s tempting to believe this if one is a christian and not interested in matters of investigation but there are problems in jesus s time the psalm was thought to be about the messiah and it is easy to see why david might refer to the messiah as his superior we need only look at the scriptures about the messiah to see that he is expected to be a great king bringing the jews to times even better than those under david s rule of course the jews listening had no good answer and the passage could indeed refer to a divine messiah such as the christians worship the problem lies in the meaning of this psalm an error that apparently several jews of jesus s time had also made one must remember that there were various factions among the jews often as a result of different expectations of the messiah king jesus was apparently one of these adventists like his audience who thought the messiah s advent was imminent and who interpreted psalms among others as being messianic what is the problem then psalm literally reads yhvh s utterance to my lord sit at my right hand until i make your enemies your footstool yhvh sends forth your mighty scepter from zion rule in the midst of your foes your people will offer themselves freely on the day you lead your host on the holy mountains you are a priest of the order of melchizedek forever the word lord is often mistakenly capitalised by christian bibles to denote divinity in this lord but in the hebrew the word is adoni and no capitalisation exists adoni simply means lord a generic term as we would use it it is used often in the scriptures to refer to kings and to g d it is merely an address of respect there is nothing in the text itself to imply that the word refers either to divinity or to the messiah king that this is supposed to be written by david is not certain the title of the psalm translates to either a psalm of david or a psalm about david it seems fitting to assume it to be written by a court poet about david s covenant and endorsement from g d if the psalm had been written by david it is unlikely that he would be talking about the messiah the idea of a perfect king descended from david was not present in david s age we have extensive tales of david s doings and sayings none of which include any praises of a messiah many of the psalms show evidence of being written long after david was dead in times of the exile when g d had put his show of favour for david s kingdom on hold the description in the psalm fit david very well david was promised by g d a rise to power victory over his enemies successful judgement among the nations he conquered he achieved the priesthood common to melchizedek in being a righteous king enabled to bless the people it all fits we do not have to blame this problem on matthew alone though here there is not artificial prophecy alluded to though his use of the scripture is rather questionable still this event is common to the other gospels too so we let matthew off a little more easily this time it is interesting to note though how matthew dresses up the event the earlier gospel of mark tells the tale with jesus simply speaking to a crowd matthew has the pharisees who became the religious competition of an infant christianity be the target of jesus s question as we might expect matthew writes that the event ends up by embarrassing the pharisees such power is the pen moses jesus had it together all along we leave the gospel story of matthew momentarily to see a pseudo prophecy in john s gospel the gospel story of john deserves special treatment because it seems to be so far removed from the real events of jesus s career as told by even matthew but for the moment we will just look at one verse the early church leaders founded a religion on the jewish hopes of a messiah king and on an artificial extension of the original promises made by g d when constructing the history of abraham moses wrote of a promise of land and nationhood to the jewish people while this was accomplished eventually under the rule of king david the christians who came along later decided that they would claim the fulfillment of the promise but to do so they expanded on the promise preaching about a heavenly kingdom john j c speaking your father abraham rejoiced to see my day he say it and was glad it would be nice to tie in approval for jesus from abraham but abraham knew nothing of jesus or a messiah or anything christian i have tried and failed to find any event in the old testament which corresponds to john s little prophecy it is par for the course to see st john making up old testament backings just like his forerunner matthew many christians know that their faith has many of its foundations in such fraud and it is surprising they still cling to it the potter s field we are told that jesus was betrayed while in jerusalem by one of his followers judas iscariot matthew writes mt and throwing down the pieces of silver in the temple judas departed but the chief priests taking the silver said it isn t lawful for us to put it in the treasury since it is blood money so they bought a potter s field with it to bury strangers in then was fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet jeremiah and they took the thirty pieces of silver the price of him on whom a price had been set by some of the sons of israel and they gave them for the potter s field as the lord directed me this prophecy is an utterly gross bastardisation of old testament scripture first matthew has made a mistake regarding the name of the prophet it is zechariah who utters the verses which matthew makes use of zech and they weighed out my wages thirty shekels of silver then yhvh said to me cast them to the treasury the lordly price at which i was paid off by them so i took the thirty shekels of silver and cast them into the treasury in the house of yhvh first of all the verses of zechariah do not deal with a betrayer of the messiah or of g d the deal with a shepherd most likely a priest chosen to serve a function of presiding over the people shortly before g d would send judah and israel into conflict with one another the word treasury had been replaced by the king james scholars with to the potter precisely because this made matthew s quote fit better but this is a blatant error the correct translation of the hebrew is indeed treasury which also makes perfect sense in zechariah s context whereas potter s field is totally unrelated whether the mistranslation was intentional or not seems to be beyond speculation however given matthew s track record one finds it hard to resist the notion of intentional dishonesty of course matthew would have ample reason for altering the text the thirty pieces of silver match judas s situation and if as most christians seem to be the reader is willing to disregard the contextual incongruity matthew might have another prophecy to toss around however the correct translation of zechariah directly contradicts the situation with judas and the high priests the high priests would not put the money in the treasury the worthless shepherd of zechariah does exactly the opposite of course to the average thursday night bible student the prophecy as presented by matthew would be taken at new testament face value to those matthew s work is convincing enough wine vinegar casting lots then jesus is led away to be crucified mt they gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall but when he tasted it he would not drink it and when they had crucified him they divided his garments among them by casting lots that it might be fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet they parted my garments among them and upon my vesture did they cast lots first of all the vinegar offered to jesus is actually common sour wine of the type that roman soldiers drank regularly we find that right before jesus dies the soldiers themselves give him some to drink not polluted with gall jn jesus said i thirst a bowl of vinegar stood there so they put a sponge full of the vinegar on hyssop and held it to his mouth when he had received the vinegar he said it is finished but matthew seems to be drawing on not a passage from the prophets but one from the psalms ps i looked for pity but there was none and for comforters but i found none they gave me poison for food lit they put gall in my meat and for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink add to them punishment upon punishment may they have no acquittal from thee let them be blotted out of the book of the living of course the sour wine offered to jesus is done at his request of drink this does indeed seem to be a show of pity the psalm quoted is about david and his political and military enemies it is not about the messiah or jesus it is then not surprising that we run into further problem when we see that the jesus in the psalm asks g d for the damnation of the crucifiers whereas the jesus of the gospels says lk jesus said father forgive them the don t know what they do further matthew misses with his attempt to create prophecy by having gall a bitter substance put into jesus s drink not his meat as the psalm stipulates with the prophecy of the vinegar faulty we naturally ask what of the casting of lots this brings up the nd psalm which deserves discussion all by itself suffice it now to say that the fact that jesus s clothes were divided as told is no great thing it turns out that this happened often to any felon in those days as we will soon see it is perhaps the least erroneous passage of the psalm when applied to jesus it does indeed bring up the interesting question as to the quality of jesus s clothes for a man so removed from worldly possessions his ownership of clothes worthy of casting lots raises some suspicions the nd psalm this psalm is attributed to david as a lament of his condition under the attack of his enemies it becomes a song of praise to yhvh and of hope taken out of context parts of it seem to fit the plight of jesus at the crucifixion quite well we will examine the primary passages verse my god my god why have you forsaken me why are you so far from helping me far from the words of my groaning oh my god i cry by day but you don t answer and by night but find no rest jesus is said to have cried the first sentence while on the cross this suggests that the whole psalm is really about jesus rather than king david of course the rest of the first stanza does not fit as nicely to jesus or his execution jesus is not pictured as complaining about the whole ordeal he is supposed to be like the lamb led mute before its shearers indeed jesus doesn t do much groaning even when on the cross he certainly does not cry by both day and night on the cross but i am a worm and no man scorned by men all who see me mock at me they make faces and wag their heads he committed his cause to yhvh so let him deliver him for he delights in him this seems to fit jesus s execution pretty well with the exception of the holy messiah being called a worm many bulls encompass me they open their mouths widely at me like a ravening and roaring lion yea dogs are round about me a company of evildoers encir cle me they have pierced my hands and feet i can see all my bones they divide my garments among them and cast lost for my raiment but you yhvh be not far away deliver my soul from the sword my life from the power of the dog save me from the mouth of the lion and my afflicted soul from the horns of the wild bull it would seem quite convincing and i m sure the early christian fathers who wrote of this prophecy thought so too unfortunately this prophecy has a fatal flaw the words have pierced really do not exist in the psalm the correct hebrew translation is yea dogs are round about me a company of evildoers encircles me like the lion they are at my hands and feet in hebrew the phrase like the lion and a very rare verb form which can mean pierced differ by one phonetic character the word in the hebrew text is literally like the lion ka ari which makes sense in the context and even further fits the animal imagery employed by the psalm writer it is convenience that would urge a christian to change the word to ka aru but to add the needed yet artificial weight to the prophecy this is just what the christian translators have chosen to do while the correct translation does not eliminate the psalm from referring to jesus its absence does not say much for the honesty of the translators apart from the erroneous verse the psalm does not lend itself to jesus so easily verse speaks of the sufferer being saved from a sword rather than a cross this naturally fits the psalm s true subject king david as a side note we now know that crucifixions did not pierce the hands the palms but rather the forearms this doesn t say much in favour of the traditional thought of a resurrected jesus showing his disciples the scars on his palms but then facts aren t bound by our religious beliefs matthew escapes culpability this time as he does not attempt to draw many direct links between this psalm and his lord jesus but the psalm like many others was on the minds of all the gospel writers when they compiled the stories and interpretations of jesus s life and death how much these scriptures may have contributed to what actually got written down is a question that has serious repercussions for christian theology it is easy to see for those who are not faithful fundamentalists how some of the events in the new testament might have been enhanced by scribes such as the eager matthew but it does less to speculate than to simply investigate scriptural matters and prophetic claims so far this has not said good things for st matthew the reference to the piercing looks a lot like jesus s crucifixion john s gospel recount written about years after the fact tells us at jesus s execution jn but one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear and out came blood and water these things took place that scripture be fulfilled the will look on him whom they ve pierced of course this is built on a passage taken blatantly out of context prophet zechariah tells us how much of the nation of israel will split off from jerusalem and judah and go to war with them zc and yhvh will give victory to judah and on that day i will seek to destroy the nations that come against jerusalem in judah and i will pour a spirit of compassion and supplication on jerusalem so that when they look on him who they have pierced they will mourn and weep bitterly over him like you weep over a firstborn child john s attempt to make up prophecy is perhaps weaker that matthew s attempts matthew at least usually excontexts more than just one passage john s errors are grossly obvious and blatant here it does not speak well for any of the gospel writers as it helps to show how the prophetic aspects of their religion were founded reckoned with transgressors after his arrest jesus is quickly executed for claiming the jewish kingship messiahship according to one version of the gospel tale jesus gets executed along with two thieves mk and with him they crucified two robbers one on his right one on his left and so the scripture was fulfilled which says he was reckoned with the transgressors here mark is trying to link jesus to a passage in isaiah about the servant nation of israel the passage is not about the messiah for if one reads the whole chapter of isaiah and its surrounding chapters one sees that the servant is a nation the verses are also about what this servant has gone through in the past not a prediction of what is to come in any event the servant is thought of as a criminal this also happens to fit the description of jesus had the passage really been about the messiah it still is not at all clear why executing jesus between two thieves would fulfill the prophecy in isaiah jesus would more fittingly fulfill it with his whole ministry he was considered a blasphemer and troublemaker all throughout his career locking onto a single event is a rather poor way to steal prophecy at least in this case as we see that mark could have had made a better analogy with general comparisons mark goes on to tell us how those who were crucified with jesus also reviled him this is to be expected from a couple of robbers of course in his later recount st luke decides to change some things luke tells us lk and one of the criminals who was hanged with him railed aren t you the messiah save yourself and us this certainly fits with mark s recount which tells how the people who crucified jesus said save yourself and that the robbers did the same but then luke goes on but the other criminal rebuked the first saying don t you fear g d since you are under the same sentence of condemnation and we indeed justly so for we are receiving the due reward for our deeds but this man has done nothing wrong and he said jesus remember me when you come in your kingdom and jesus answered verily i say to you today you will be with me in paradise now this little dialogue seems highly contrived it stretches the imagination a bit to see this picture of one ruffian rebuking his fellow criminal with such eloquent speech we have a rather strange picture of a criminal lamenting over the goodness of his punishment and the justness of his suffering such a man apparently noble and of principle doesn t seem likely to have been a robber we wonder at the amount of theatrics created by luke of course luke s recount also disagrees with mark s luke has only one criminal revile jesus not both it is easy enough to discount the discrepancy because the account was made up but those who wish to believe it is all part of the error free words of g d do not have this avenue open this is yet another example of a writer trying to take an old testament passage and expand it and reinterpret it to suit his theology in this case the embroidery creates some embarrassing problems as we have seen the end of the world mt now comes perhaps one of the most extraordinary and embarrassing passages in the new testament it is found in all three of the synoptic gospel stories and casts some of the most unfavourable doubt on the whole theory of christianity jesus mentions the destruction of the jewish temples and buildings and his disciples ask him about this and about the end of the world which he has been warning about the disciples tell us when will this the temple s destruction be and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age jesus take care that no one leads you astray for many will come in my name saying i am the christ you will hear of wars and rumours of wars for this must take place but the end is not yet for nation will rise against nation all this is but the beginning of the birthpangs they will deliver you up put you to death and false prophets will arise and lead many astray but he who endures to the end will be saved this gospel will be preached throughout the whole world a testimony to the nations and then the end will come so when you see the desolation spoken of by the prophet daniel let those who are in judea flee to the mountains immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened the stars will fall from heaven then will appear the sign of the son of man in heaven and all the tribes of the earth will mourn and see the son of man coming and he will send out his angels and gather his elect learn the lesson of the fig tree as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth leaves you know that summer is near so also when you see all these things you will know that he is near at the very gate truly i say to you this generation will not pass away until all these things take place but of the day and hour no one knows not the angels not the son but only the father therefore you also must be ready for the son of man is coming at an hour you do not expect from this it is clear that jesus thought the world would in within the lifetimes of at least some of his disciples he tells them that although he doesn t know the exact day or hour that it will come and thus they must be ready theologians have wet their pants in panic to find some way out of this holy error but unfortunately jesus made himself to explicit he told his disciples that their generation would still be around at the end and that they in particular should prepare for it prepare to be swept away there have been some who resorted to removing the inerrant nature of the bible and said that the phrase this generation shall not pass away really means this race of people will not pass away of course the word for generation is used many times to refer to exactly that the generation of the disciples it is an interesting notion that when god decided to learn greek he didn t learn it well enough to make himself clear but it is quite obvious from the rest of the dialogue that the disciples at least some of them are supposed to live to the end of the world the charge of mistranslation is completely blown away by looking at the apostles responses it becomes abundantly clear from rev peter john and rev that jesus meant exactly what he said the end was very near for years christians have rationalised this th chapter of matthew or ignored its meaning altogether for years they have waited for their executed leader to come back hearing of wars and rumours of wars sure that he is coming soon surely he must be all we must do is wait can you imagine how tired he must be sitting around up there being holy waiting for just the right moment to spring so shortly after his crucifixion jesus of nazareth joshua ben joseph died it is said that after three days or three days and three nights or three periods of time or three eternal seconds or three of whatever they can decide makes for less trouble he was seen again resurrected glowing with divine radiance then the saviour decided it wasn t in the best interests of his new religion to stick around and therefore disappeared from sight into heaven so the story goes anyway as has been seen there were many things attributed to jesus when people got around to writing the gospel stories down to them jesus was the fulfiller of all prophecy and scripture we have seen though that this matter is quite shaky but throughout church history christians have held fast to faith in simple belief what doctrinal objections could not be solved with argumentation or brute force faith and forgetfulness kept away from question to question and investigate has never been the easiest way to treat matters thus for years the prophecies cited in the new testament have gone on largely accepted things may well continue that way for some time pausing a moment to consider the way the doctrines of christianity have been accepted and used properly or improperly to support wars and persecution i suppose there is one prophecy of which christianity can securely keep hold mt jesus don t think that i have come to bring peace on earth i haven t come to bring peace but rather a sword
alt.atheism	re some thoughts bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes first i want to start right out and say that i m a christian it makes sense to be one have any of you read tony campollo s book liar lunatic or the real thing i might be a little off on the title but he writes the book anyway he was part of an effort to destroy christianity in the process he became a christian himself i assume you are posting to encourage comments how much history has tony campello read not much it seems the arguements he uses i am summing up the book is about whether jesus was god or not i know many of you don t believe but listen to a different perspective for we all have something to gain by listening to what others have to say it is good to hear that there are a few reasonable christians about if only those christian scientists would take note in australia there is a very strong movement a bunch of christian scientists who believe that every single event in the bible is exactly true and that there is a rational explanation for it all that can be justified by using the laws of physics for example there are a few chaps who are trying to prove that the age of the universe is years old and that the error in conventional calculations is the result of the fact that the speed light has been rapidly decaying over the years and this has not been accounted for the book says that jesus was either a liar or he was crazy a modern day koresh or he was actually who he said he was or of course that he never existed and the bible was a story and was never intended to become a manifesto for a billion people did tony follow that one up some reasons why he wouldn t be a liar are as follows who would die for a lie wouldn t people be able to tell if he was a liar people gathered around him and kept doing it many gathered from hearing or seeing someone who was or had been healed millions of people have died for a lie this point is difficult to substantiate since it is not well defined a great many religious arguments work in that way but consider the many aztec warriors who sacrificed themselves to their gods in the belief that this act would bring them victory of the spanish invaders the list is endless the aztecs lost btw call me a fool but i believe he did heal people that is perfectly reasonable but it is not grounds for me or anyone to become a christian more to the point it does not add weight to the claim that jesus was the real thing niether was he a lunatic would more than an entire nation be drawn to someone who was crazy very doubtful in fact rediculous for example anyone who is drawn to david koresh is obviously a fool logical people see this right away have you ever seen a documentary about the rise of nazi germany more to the point did tony mention this one could hardly call werner heisenberg and his many colleagues fools or illogical men their support of hitler was based i presume upon an emotional issue rather than a rational agreement with his principles obviously my argument is invalid if tony thought that hitler was sane therefore since he wasn t a liar or a lunatic he must have been the real thing hmmm i don t think his arguments warrant the use of a therefore some other things to note he fulfilled loads of prophecies in the psalms isaiah and elsewhere in hrs alone this in his betrayal and crucifixion i don t have my bible with me at this moment next time i write i will use it this is unfortunately what alot of religious discussions i have had with people result in quoting the bible the only reasonable way i think people can look at the bible is to treat the stories as some sort of metaphorical representation of the messages that the authors were trying to present if someone tries to interpret parts of the bible literally he or she will end up in all sorts of shit tony s argument would be perfectly reasonable for people who believe the events described in the bible took place but to convince someone who thinks the bible is total fiction that jesus is real by quoting the book is totally pointless for example in mathematics you cannot say a is equal to b because a is equal to b i don t think most people understand what a christian is that would possibly explain why there have so many people being killed in religious wars and why there are hundreds of different versions all claiming to be correct it is certainly not what i see a lot in churches rather i think it should be a way of life and a total sacrafice of everything for god s sake he loved us enough to die and save us so we should do the same hey we can t do it god himself inspires us to turn our lives over to him that s tuff and most people don t want to do it to be a real christian would be something for the strong to persevere at but just like weight lifting or guitar playing drums whatever it takes time we don t rush it in one day christianity is your whole life it is not going to church once a week or helping poor people once in a while we box everything into time units such as work at this time sports tv social life god is above these boxes and should be carried with us into all these boxes that we have created for ourselves i think if you posted this part to alt religion you would get more flames than here i have never really understood why the emotional sentiments of a stranger should be of interest to other people someone famous said that there two evils in life polititians and churchs one rules by fear of the living the other by fear of the dead if i am pressed i could probably find the exact quotation cheers charles
alt.atheism	re bible quiz in article apr ccsua ctstateu edu kellyb ccsua ctstateu edu wrote in article kmr po cwru edu kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes only when the sun starts to orbit the earth will i accept the bible since when does atheism mean trashing other religions there must be a god of inbreeding to which you are his only son a i think that he has a rather witty sig file it sums up a great deal of atheistic thought imo in one simple sentence b atheism isn t an other religion sm steve mullins vos stratus com if a man empties his purse into his my opinions stratus opinions head no one can take it from him benjamin franklin
alt.atheism	re islam and scientific predictions was in article h r ra nrl navy mil khan itd itd nrl navy mil umar khan writes i strongly suggest that you look up a book called the bible the quran and science by maurice baucaille a french surgeon it is not comprehensive but it is well researched i imagine your library has it or can get it for you through interlibrary loan i shall try to get hold of it when i have time to read of course in short dr baucaille began investigating the bible because of pre ceived scientific inaccuracies and inconsistencies he assumed that some of the problems may have been caused by poor translations in by gone days so he read what he could find in hebrew greek aramaic what he found was that the problems didn t go away they got worse then he decided to see if other religions had the same problems so he picked up the holy qur an in french and found similar prob lems but not as many so he applied the same logoic as he had with the bible he learned to read it in arabic the problems he had found with the french version went away in arabic he was unable to find a wealth of scientific statements in the holy qur an but what he did find made sense with modern understanding so he investigated the traditions the hadith to see what they had to say about science they were filled with science problems after all they were contemporary narratives from a time which had by pour standards a primitive world view his conclusion was that while he was impressed that what little the holy qur an had to say about science was accurate he was far more impressed that the holy qur an did not contain the same rampant errors evidenced in the traditions how would a man of th century arabia have known what not to include in the holy qur an assuming he had authored it so in short the writer or writers of quran decided to stay away from science if you do not open your mouth then you don t put you foot into your mouth either but then if you say quran does not talk much about science then one can not make claims like bobby does that you have great science in quran basically i want to say that none of the religious texts are supposed to be scientific treatises so i am just requesting the theists to stop making such wild claims vinayak vinayak dutt e mail vdp mayo edu standard disclaimers apply
alt.atheism	bible contradictions i would like a list of bible contadictions from those of you who dispite being free from christianity are well versed in the bible
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article c l ey jts news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes in vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes actually my atheism is based on ignorance ignorance of the existence of any god don t fall into the atheists don t believe because of their pride mistake how do you know it s based on ignorance couldn t that be wrong why would it be wrong to fall into the trap that you mentioned if i m wrong god is free at any time to correct my mistake that he continues not to do so while supposedly proclaiming his undying love for my eternal soul speaks volumes as for the trap you are not in a position to tell me that i don t believe in god because i do not wish to unless you can know my motivations better than i do myself you should believe me when i say that i earnestly searched for god for years and never found him bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out at sea
alt.atheism	re a silly question on x tianity in article pww spac at rice edu pww spacsun rice edu peter walker writes from pww spacsun rice edu peter walker subject re a silly question on x tianity date mon apr gmt in article qaqi inngje gap caltech edu werdna cco caltech edu andrew tong wrote so what
alt.atheism	re islam and scientific predictions was umar khan khan itd itd nrl navy mil wrote i strongly suggest that you look up a book called the bible the quran and science by maurice baucaille a french surgeon it is not comprehensive he was unable to find a wealth of scientific statements in the holy qur an but what he did find made sense with modern understanding so he investigated the traditions the hadith to see what they had to say about science they were filled with science problems after all they were contemporary narratives from a time which had by pour standards a primitive world view his conclusion was that while he was impressed that what little the holy qur an had to say about science was accurate he was far more impressed that the holy qur an did not contain the same rampant errors evidenced in the traditions how would a man of th century arabia have known what not to include in the holy qur an assuming he had authored it this book is worth a read to get a sensible view of this issue the book is in two sections section contains a fairly reasonable analysis of the bible showing many inconsistencies between the bible and modern science well we all know that no surprises section analyses the koran s version of the old testament stories and seems on the face of it to present a good case showing the koran is consistent with modern science however it was plain to me that this consistency was only possible by the vague phraseology of the koran take the flood for example the bible is full of detail forty days and forty nights pair of every animal etc we all know this is nonsense the koran s description of the same event is so obscure as to make possible an interpretation such as a big river flooded for a few days and caused much damage yes no contradiction but also not much fact the koran might be consistent with modern science but being consistent due to its vagueness compared with other books of that time does not seem much of an achievement the book concludes by saying something like the koran must have had divine inspiration because at the time it was written there were a lot of to us now ridiculous ideas about the universe and none of them can be found in the koran arguing for the greatness of a book by talking about what it does not contain seems absurd in the extreme the above is of course from memory so i may have missed some points leonard e mail l newnham bradford ac uk
alt.atheism	re the bible and abortion james j lippard lippard skyblu ccit arizona edu wrote exodus and if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage yet there is no further injury he shall surely be fined as the woman s husband may demand of him and he shall pay as the judges decide but if there is any further injury then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life eye for eye tooth for tooth hand for hand foot for foot burn for burn wound for wound bruise for bruise the most straightforward interpretation of these verses is that if men in a fight strike a woman and cause her to miscarry the penalty is only a fine if however the woman is injured or dies the lex talionis doctrine of an eye for an eye applies this is the jewish interpretation and is supported by jewish commentaries on these verses this is quite an embarrassment for pro lifer christians so there is of course an alternate explanation the alternative interprets the word miscarriage to mean premature birth i e the child is born alive and further injury to mean injury to either the woman or the fetus this is not a straightforward interpretation it is not so far as i know supported by any jewish commentaries and it does not appeared to be supported by any other part of the bible what if any historical reference do we have to abortion at this time did the ancient jew have appropriate reference to understand abortion i am truly asking not making a point veiled as a question if there is little understanding of the medical procedure we know as abortion it is not surprising the bible makes little reference to it as it makes little reference to nuclear power and contamination while your interpretation is a reasonable one i see no reason to reject the other out of hand the king jimmy translation says if there is no further mischief this does not necessarily imply to the woman i know if my wife we expecting and someone cause her to spontaneously abort we would feel that a life was truly taken not simply a process halted
alt.atheism	you will all go to hell you blashephemers you will all go to hell for not believing in god be prepared for your eternal damnation
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger wrote khomeini advocates the view that there was a series of twelve islamic leaders the twelve imams who are free of error or sin this makes him a heretic wow you re quicker to point out heresy than the church in the middle ages seriously though even the sheiks at al azhar don t claim that the shi ites are heretics most of the accusations and fabrications about shi ites come out of saudi arabia from the wahabis for that matter you should read the original works of the sunni imams imams of the four madhabs the teacher of at least two of them was imam jafar sadiq the sixth imam of the shi ites although there is plenty of false propaganda floating around about the shi ites esp since the revolution there are also many good works by shi ites which present the views and teachings of their school why make assumptions and allegations like people in this group have done about islam in general about shi ites
alt.atheism	re note to bobby m again in article apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu s n mozumder writes how about people who are not religous take the inner city there are many people that care little for religion lot of crime lot of murder this is the other end lack of religion that allows wrong to happen i lived in tokyo for a year and a half and one of the many reasons why i intend to go back indefinitely is the freedom one enjoys when one can walk anywhere and i mean anywhere at any time of day or night and not feel uneasy even if one s from an ethnic minority as i was clues for bobby why do i bother i tokyo is a city and inner tokyo is an inner city ii there is a negligible level of violent crime and a street murder will be a lead item on national tv news iii the population is almost universally atheistic next time i go for a stroll around beirut at night i ll let you know how it compares bobby mozumder cheers simon simon clippingdale simon dcs warwick ac uk department of computer science tel university of warwick fax coventry cv al u k
alt.atheism	re islam a clearer view in article bafc i dbstu rz tu bs de i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau writes from i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau subject re islam a clearer view date tue apr gmt in article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy r healy writes sorry it is generally accepted that the rise of the inquisition is the reason why torture was introduced outside the romanic countries at the end of the middle ages in other words the holy mother church which is lead infallibly by the holy ghost has spread it the roman catholic church claims to be lead by the infallable pope that s why she the rc church has done so many wicked things to xtians and non believers alike the rationale that the pope speaking ex cathedra is infallible is based on the claim above the dogma about the pope is of jesuitic origin and has not been been accepted before the mid of the last century benedikt you re right thanks for enlightening me tammy
alt.atheism	cannanite genocide in the bible excuse me for my ignorance but i remember reading once that the biblical tribe known as the philistines still exists they are the modern day palestinians anyone out there with more info please post it tammy
alt.atheism	getting to the point to all a a readers i have been asked be several of you to post a list of the sda church s fundamental beliefs i warn you now it s a long list however i ll post it on sunday sabbath is coming up soon so i won t be reading on saturday and i don t have time to do it now i would greatly appreciate it if you would keep me in touch with what s going on i hope all of you have a reastful and relaxing weekend i hope it s the best one so far tammy
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie re an anecdote about islam in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger wrote he d have to be precise about is rejection of god and his leaving islam one is perfectly free to be muslim and to doubt and question the existence of god so long as one does not reject god i am sure that rushdie has be now made his atheism clear in front of a sufficient number of proper witnesses the question in regard to the legal issue is his status at the time the crime was committed gregg so would you consider that rushdie would now be left alone and he could have a normal life in other words does islam support the notion of forgiving cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie re an anecdote about islam in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger wrote as i have stated on a parallel thread i am not an anarchist nor is islam anarchist therefore the uk should have control over itself however this does not change the fact that it is possible for citizens of the uk residing within the uk to be in violation of islamic law this is an interesting notion and one i m scared of in my case i m a finnish citizen i live in usa and i have to conform to the us laws however the finnish government is not actively checking out what i m doing in this country in other words checking out if i conform to the finnish laws however islamic law seems to be a curse that is following you everywhere in the world shades of eh cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re objective morality was re political atheists in article qlf ginn sn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider wrote which type of morality are you talking about in a natural sense it is not at all immoral to harm another species as long as it doesn t adversely affect your own i guess hehehe so you say but this objective morality somehere tells you that this is not the case and you don t know all the rules of such transcendental game systems cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re free moral agency and kent s in article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy r healy wrote at the time ezekiel was written israel was in apostacy again and if i m not mistaken tyre was about to make war on israel like i said the prince of tyre was the human ruler of tyre he was a wicked man by calling satan the king of tyre ezekiel was saying that satan is the real ruler over tyre tammy is this all explicitly stated in the bible or do you assume that you know that ezekiel indirectly mentioned it could have been another metaphor for instance ezekiel was mad at his landlord so he talked about him when he wrote about the prince of tyre sorry but my interpretation is more mundane ezekiel wrote about the prince of tyre when we wrote about the prince of tyre cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
alt.atheism	re sci skeptic religion was why alt atheism in article j j psuvm psu edu john a johnson j j psuvm psu edu writes standard groups sci soc talk must conform to stricter rules when being established and must show a certain volume of postings or else they will cease to exist these groups also reach more sites on usenet than alt groups i already posted my opinion to mathew s suggestion which was that alt atheism is on the verge of having too many garbage postings from fundies and elevating its status to a standard group and consequently the volume of such postings could make it unreadable i tend to agree i came here when it first started and watched it grow from the roots on talk religion misc it seemed to take a while for enough atheists to come forward to get past the let s trash xians and such now there s a stable core and frankly there s a feeling that this is our group if we go mainstream we re going to be in a lot more places and every fucking fundy loonie freshman will be dumping on us to find jeesus and warn us that we re all going to hell want to see what we ll get go real alt fan brother jed and imagine that those imbecilic tirades will be here all the time every other post i m being selfish i find i really learn a lot here and the s n isn t too bad the browns and the boobys are a distraction but they are few enough that they even bring in some of the leavening needed to offset them but i greatly fear that mainstreaming would basically put us at the swamping level of the conners of the world regards dew dewey henize sys net admin risc hardware pager x
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie is it just me or has this part gotten beyond useful gregg is not as i understand his posts giving any support to the bounty on rushdie s life if that s correct end of one point gregg is using the concept of legal in a way most westerners don t accept his comments about islamic law i think make a great deal of sense to him and are even making a little sense to me now if a person is a member of a group religion or whatever they bind themselves to follow the ways of the group within the bounds of what the group requires as a minimum the big bone of contention here that i m picking up is that in the west we have secular governments that maintain more or less a level of control and of requirements outside the requirements of optional groups i think the majority of us reading this thread are in tune note i didn t say in agreement with the idea that you are finally responsible to the secular government and within that to the group or groups a person may have chosen with that in mind it not possible under secular law legally as most people would define the term to hold a person to a particular group once they decide to separate from it only if the secular authorities agree that there is a requirement of some sort contractual etc is there any secular enforcement allowed by a group to a group member or past group member a religion can and often does believe in and require additional duties of a group member and it can enforce the fulfillment of those duties in many ways ostracism is common for example but the limit comes when the enforcement would impose unwanted and or unaccepted onus on a person in conflict with secular law this is the difference in a theocracy the requirements of the secular authorities are by definition congruent with the religious authorities outside a theocracy this is not necessarily true religious requirements may coincide or may not similiarly religious consequences may or may not coincide with secular consequences if any regards dew dewey henize sys net admin risc hardware pager x
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article apr bnr ca rashid writes deletions the fatwa was levelled at the person of rushdie any actions of rushdie that feed the situation contribute to the legitimization of the ruling the book remains in circulation not by some independant will of its own but by the will of the author and the publishers the fatwa against the person of rushdie encompasses his actions as well the crime was certainly a crime in progress at many levels and was being played out and played up in the the full view of the media p s i m not sure about this but i think the charge of shatim also applies to rushdie and may be encompassed under the umbrella of the fasad ruling if this is grounded firmly in islam as you claim then you have just exposed islam as the grounds for terrorism plain and simple whether you like it or not whether rushdie acted like a total jerk or not there is no acceptable civilized basis for putting someone in fear of their life for words it simply does not matter whether his underlying motive was to find the worst possible way he could to insult muslims and their beliefs got that you do not threaten the life of someone for words when you do you quite simply admit the backruptcy of your position if you support threatening the life of someone for words you are not yet civilized this is exactly where i and many of the people i know have to depart from respecting the religions of others when those beliefs allow and encourage by interpretation the killing of non physical opposition you or i or anyone are more than privledged to believe that someone whether it be rushdie or bush or hussien or whover is beyond the pale of civilized society and you can condemn his her soul refuse to allow any members of your association to interact with him her peacably demonstrate to try to convince others to disassociate themselves from the miscreants or whatever short of physical force but once you physically threaten or support physical threats you get much closer to your earlier comparison of rape with you as the rapist who whines she asked for it look how she was dressed blaming the victim when you are unable to be civilized doesn t fly dew dewey henize sys net admin risc hardware pager x
alt.atheism	nicknames in article ufnyj a voqit vpa andrew cmu edu nm w andrew cmu edu nanci ann miller writes jcopelan nyx cs du edu the one and only writes welcome i am the official keeper of the list of nicknames that people are known by on alt atheism didn t know we had such a list did you your have been awarded the nickname of buckminster so the next time you post an article sign with your nickname like so dave buckminster fuller thanks again jim humor means never having to say you re sorry copeland of course the list has to agree with the nickname laws laid down by the gipu almost years ago you know the of them that were written on the iron tablets that melted once and had to be reinscribed since i am a prophet of the gipu i decree that you should post the whole list of nicknames for the frequent posters here if the first rule of humor is never having to say you re sorry then the second rule must be never having to explain yourself few things are worse that a joke explained in spite of this and because of requests for me to post my list o nicknames i must admit that no such list exists it was simply a plot device along with me being the keeper o the list to make the obvious play on the last name of fuller and to advance the idea that such a list should be made i assumed that the ol timers would recognize it for what it is nevertheless how about a list o nicknames for alt atheism posters if you think of a good one just post it and see if others like it we could start with those posters who annoy us the most like bobby or bill jim d oh i broke the second rule of humor copeland if god is dead and the actor plays his part sting his words of fear will find their way to a place in your heart history without the voice of reason every faith is its own curse will teach us without freedom from the past things can only get worse nothing
alt.atheism	re death penalty gulf war in article e rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew mathew mantis co uk writes rush leland stanford edu voelkerding writes in article apr seachg com chrisb seachg com chris blask writes add to this the outrageous cost of putting someone to death special cell block years of court costs extra guards and the benefits of the death penalty entirely disappear that s because of your earlier claim that the one innocent death overrides the benefit of all the others obviously it s tragic but it is no argument for doing away with the death penalty if we went to war and worried about accidentally killing civilians all of the time because our determination of who the enemy really is is imperfect then there is no way to win the war yes fortunately we have right thinking folks like your good self in power and it was therefore deemed acceptable to slaughter tens or even hundreds of thousands of iraqis in order to liberate oil h h hkuwait we won the war hurrah hurrah the number of civilian iraqi deaths were way over exaggerated and exploited for anti war emotionalism by the liberal news media the facts are that less iraqis died in the gulf war than did civilians in any other war of comparable size this century this was due mostly to the short duration coupled with precise surgical bombing techniques which were technically possible only recently the idea that hundreds of thousands of iraqi citizens died is ludicrous not even hundreds of thousands of iraqi soldiers died and they were the ones being targeted or do you think that the us and its allies were specifically out to kill and maim iraqi civilians either the smart bombs didn t hit their targets and we know they did or they were targeting civilian targets which is hardly condusive to destroying iraq s military potential the military mission planners are not fools they know they have to hit military targets to win a war hitting civilian targets does nothing but unite the people against you not a laudable goal if one wants the people to rise up against their tyrant dictator ok so some innocent people died yes maybe the unarmed civilians fleeing along that road didn t need to be bombed to bits perhaps that kid with half his face burned off and the little girl with the mangled legs weren t entirely guilty but it s worth the death of a few innocents to save the oil h h hlives of the kuwaiti people isn t it after all the iraqis may not have had a chance to vote for saddam but they showed their acceptance of his regime by not assassinating him right all that surrendering and fleeing along open roads was just a devious ploy we were entirely within our rights to bomb em just in case without finding out if they were soldiers how about all the innocent people who died in blanket bombing in ww i don t hear you bemoaning them war is never an exact science but with smart bombs it s becoming more exact with a smaller percentage of civilian casualties sometimes mistakes are made targets are misidentified innocents die that s war the way it really is but the alternative to allow tyrannical dictators to treat the earth like it s one big rummage sale grabbing everything they can get is worse like patrick henry said some years ago i know not what course others may take but as for me give me liberty or give me death war is always the price one must be willing to pay if one wishes to stay free the death penalty was conceived as a deterrent to crime but the legal shenanigans that have been added automatic appeals lengthy court battles etc have relegated that purpose to a very small part of what it should be hence the question is do we instate the death penalty as it was meant to be and see if that deters crime or do we get rid of it entirely yes let s reinstate the death penalty the way it ought to be all that shit about fair trials and a court of appeals just gets in the way of justice let s give the police the absolute right to gun down the guilty and save ourselves the expense of all those lawyers think of the knock on benefits too la would never have had to spend so much money cleaning up after riots and holding showcase trials if the cops had been allowed to do their job properly a quick bullet through the head of rodney king and another for the cameraman and everyone would have been saved a great deal of unnecessary paperwork and expense after all if the police decide a man s guilty that ought to be enough the fact that the death penalty has been shown not to have any deterrent effect over imprisonment well that s entirely irrelevant mathew mathew your sarcasm is noted but you are completely off base here you come off sounding like a complete peace nik idiot although i feel sure that was not your intent so the iraqi war was wrong eh i m sure that appeasement would have worked better than war just like it did in ww eh i guess we shouldn t have fought ww either just think of all those innocent german civilians killed in dresden and hamburg how about all the poor french who died in the crossfire because we invaded the continent we should have just let hitler take over europe and you d be speaking german instead of english right now tyrants like hussein have to be stopped his kind don t understand diplomacy they only understand the point of a gun my only regret is that bush wimped out and didn t have the military roll into baghdad so now hussein is still in power and the iraqi people s sacrifice not to mention the americans who died was for naught liberating kuwait was a good thing but wiping hussein off the map would ve been better and as for poor poor rodney king did you ever stop and think why the jury in the first trial brought back a verdict of not guilty those who have been foaming at the mouth for the blood of those policemen certainly have looked no further than the video tape but the jury looked at all the evidence evidence which you and i have not seen when one makes a judgment without the benefit of a trial where evidence can be presented on both sides one has simply lowered himself to the level of vigilante justice a state of mind which your sarcasm above seemingly spoke against but instead tends to support in the case against the policemen law in this country is intended to protect the rights of the accused whether they be criminals or cops one is not found guilty if there is a reasonable doubt of one s guilt and only the jury is in a position to assess the evidence and render a verdict anyone else is simply succumbing to verbal vigilantism regards jim b
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes in article apr st andrews ac uk nrp st andrews ac uk norman r paterson writes i don t think you re right about germany my daughter was born there and i don t think she has any german rights eg to vote or live there beyond the rights of all ec citizens she is a british citizen by virtue of her parentage but that s not full citizenship for example i don t think her children could be british by virtue of her in the same way i am fairly sure that she could obtain citizenship by making an application for it it might require immigration to germany but i am almost certain that once applied for citizenship is inevitable in this case nope germany has extremely restrictive citizenship laws the ethnic germans who have lived in russia for over years automatically become citizens if they move to germany but the turks who are now in their third generation in germany can t it s not a very good example to show citizenship without descent karl lastly i come to china in the hope all you touch and all you see of fulfilling a lifelong ambition is all your life will ever be dropping acid on the great wall duke pink floyd a lie is still a lie even if billion people believe it
alt.atheism	re you will all go to hell on fri apr edt jsn psuvm psu edu said j you blashephemers you will all go to hell for not believing in god be j prepared for your eternal damnation hmm i ve got my mst k lunch box my travel scrabble and a couple of kegs of bass ale i m all set let s go everybody ed mccreary o edm twisto compaq com if it were not for laughter there would be no tao
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie in article bb i dbstu rz tu bs de i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau writes i assume that you say here a religious law is for the followers of the religion that begs the question why the religion has the right to define who is a follower even when the offenders disagree no i say religious law applies to those who are categorized as belonging to the religion when event being judged applies this prevents situations in which someone is a member of a religion who when charged claims that he she was not a member of the religion so they are free to go on as if nothing had happened gregg
alt.atheism	re an anecdote about islam in article bb i dbstu rz tu bs de i dbstu rz tu bs de benedikt rosenau writes in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes a brutal system filtered through leniency is not lenient huh how do you rate public floggings or floggings at all chopping off the hands heads or other body parts what about stoning i don t have a problem with floggings particularly when the offenders have been given a chance to change their behavior before floggings are given i do have a problem with maiming in general by whatever means in my opinion no one who has not maimed another should be maimed in the case of rape the victim is maimed physically and emotionally so i wouldn t have a problem with maiming rapists obviously i wouldn t have a problem with maiming murderers either may i ask if you had the same opinion before you became a muslim sure yes i did you see i don t think that rape and murder should be dealt with lightly you being so interested in leniency for leniency s sake apparently think that people should simply be told the did a bad thing and what about the simple chance of misjudgements misjudgments should be avoided as much as possible i suspect that it s pretty unlikely that given my requirement of repeated offenses that misjudgments are very likely orient is not a place having a single character your ignorance exposes itself nicely here read carefully i have not said all the orient shows primitive machism well then why not use more specific words than orient probably because in your mind there is no need to it s all the same because it contains sufficient information while more detail is possible it is not necessary and europe shows civilized bullshit this is bullshit time to put out or shut up you ve substantiated nothing and are blabbering on like islamists who talk about the west as the great satan you re both guilty of stupidities i just love to compare such lines to the common plea of your fellow believers not to call each others names in this case to substantiate it the quran allows that one beats one s wife into submission really care to give chapter and verse we could discuss it primitive machism refers to that i have misspelt that before my fault again not all of the orient follows the qur an so you ll have to do better than that sorry you haven t put out enough islam expresses extramarital sex extramarital sex is a subset of sex it is suppressedin islam that marial sexis allowed or encouraged in islam as it is in many branches of christianity too misses the point read the part about the urge for sex again religions that run around telling people how to have sex are not my piece of cake for two reasons suppressing a strong urge needs strong measures and it is not their business anyway believe what you wish i thought you were trying to make an argument all i am reading are opinions it is an argument that you doubt the validity of the premises does not change it if you want to criticize it do so time for you to put up or shut up this is an argument for why you don t like religions that suppress sex a such it s an irrelevant argument if you d like to generalize it to an objective statement then fine my response is then you have given no reason for your statement that sex is not the business of religion one of your arguments the urge for sex in adolescents is not so strong that any overly strong measures are required to suppress it if the urge to have sex is so strong in an adult then that adult can make a commensurate effort to find a marriage partner gregg
alt.atheism	re free moral agency in article kmr po cwru edu kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes in article apr princeton edu qpliu phoenix princeton edu q p liu writes so while faith itself is a gift obedience is what makes faith possible what makes obeying different from believing i am still wondering how it is that i am to be obedient when i have no idea to whom i am to be obedient it is all written in the wholly babble the users guide to invisible pink unicorns to be granted faith in invisible pink unicorns you must read the babble and obey what is written in it to obey what is written in the babble you must believe that doing so is the way to be granted faith in invisible pink unicorns to believe that obeying what is written in the babble leads to believing in invisible pink unicorns you must essentially believe in invisible pink unicorns this bit of circular reasoning begs the question what makes obeying different from believing qpliu princeton edu standard opinion opinions are delta correlated
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article apr bnr ca rashid writes what about the twelve imams who he considered incapable of error or sin khomeini supports this view of the twelve imans this is heresy for the very reasons i gave above i would be happy to discuss the issue of the imams with you although my preference would be to move the discussion to another newsgroup i feel a philosophy or religion group would be more appropriate i think many reading this group would also benefit by knowing how deviant the view as i ve articulated it above which may not be the true view of khomeini is from the basic principles of islam so that the non muslim readers of this group will see how far from the simple basics of islam such views are on the face of them and if they are not in contradiction with the basics of islam how subtle such issues are and how it seems sects exist in islam while they are explicitly proscribed by the qur an the topic is deeply embedded in the world view of islam and the esoteric teachings of the prophet s a heresy does not enter into it at all except for those who see islam only as an exoteric religion that is only nominally if at all concerned with the metaphysical substance of man s being and nature in my opinion considering any human being as having a substance or metaphysical fundamentally different from that of any other human being is a heretical notion and one proscribed by islam from your posts you seem fairly well versed in sunni thought you should seek to know shi ite thought through knowledgeable shi ite authors as well at least that much respect is due before the charge of heresy is levelled absolutely i would be interested in discussing this privately and i am interested in hearing how one might try to make the concept of error free and sinless human beings philosophically consistent with the teachings of the qur an however prima facie such attemptsa are highly susceptible to degenerating into monkery explicitly proscribed by the qur an as salaam a laikum alaikum wassalam gregg
alt.atheism	re koresh is god date fri apr from mathew mathew mantis co uk the latest news seems to be that koresh will give himself up once he s finished writing a sequel to the bible mathew writing the seven seals or something along those lines he s already written the first of the seven which was around pages or so and has handed it over to an assistant for proofreading i would expect any decent messiah to have a built in spellchecker maybe koresh will come with one
alt.atheism	re islam and scientific predictions was date fri apr gmt from umar khan khan itd itd nrl navy mil his conclusion was that while he was impressed that what little the holy qur an had to say about science was accurate he was far more impressed that the holy qur an did not contain the same rampant errors evidenced in the traditions how would a man of th century arabia have known what not to include in the holy qur an assuming he had authored it well it looks like the folks in soc religion islam have loosened up a bit and are discussing this topic as well as the banking interest topic a few books on the subject have also been mentioned in addition to the one you mentioned these may be hard to find but i think i may take a stab at it out of curiosity i know the one film i saw on this subject was pretty weak and the only two quotes i have seen which were used to show science in the koran which i posted here were also pretty vague i suspect that these books will extrapolate an awful lot on the quotes they have at least one poster on the islam channel seems to have some misgivings about the practice of using the koran to decide what is good science i wonder if islam has ever come up with the equivalent of the christians creation science on any topic it would be interesting to find a history of scientific interpretations of the koran to see if anyone used the koran to support earlier science which has since been discarded it is all too easy to look at science as it exists today and then interpret passages to match those findings people do similar things with the sayings of nostradamus all the time anyway it is a rather unique claim of islam and may be worth checking
alt.atheism	re keith is a relativist f levels unisa edu au the desert brat writes keith if you start wafffling on about how it is different for a human to maul someone thrown into it s cage so to speak you d better start posting tome decent evidence or retract your i think there is an absolute morality blurb a few weeks ago did i claim that there was an absolute morality or just an objective one keith
alt.atheism	re political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes perhaps the chimps that failed to evolve cooperative behaviour died out and we are left with the ones that did evolve such behaviour entirely by chance that s the entire point are you going to proclaim a natural morality every time an organism evolves cooperative behaviour yes natural morality is a morality that developed naturally what about the natural morality of bee dance huh keith
alt.atheism	re objective morality was re political atheists sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes which type of morality are you talking about in a natural sense it is not at all immoral to harm another species as long as it doesn t adversely affect your own i guess hehehe so you say but this objective morality somehere tells you that this is not the case and you don t know all the rules of such transcendental game systems which objective system are you talking about what is its goal again which brand of morality are you talking about keith
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article apr bnr ca rashid writes in article apr zeus calpoly edu jmunch hertz elee calpoly edu john munch wrote in article apr bnr ca rashid writes p s i m not sure about this but i think the charge of shatim also applies to rushdie and may be encompassed under the umbrella of the fasad ruling please define the words shatim and fasad before you use them again my apologies shatim i believe refers to slandering or spreading slander and lies about the prophets a s any of the prophets basically any prophet i ve ever dealt with has either been busy hawking stolen merchandise or selling swampland house lots in florida then you hear all the stories of sexual abuse by prophets and how the families of victims were paid to keep quiet about it it s a kind of willful caulmny and cursing that s indicated by the word this is the best explanation i can come up with off the top of my head i ll try and look up a more technical definition when i have the time never mind that but let me tell you about this chevelle i bought from this dude you guessed it a prophet named mohammed i ve got the car for like two days when the tranny kicks then manny my mechanic tells me it was loaded with sawdust take a guess whether mohammed was anywhere to be found i don t think so fasad is a little more difficult to describe again this is not a technical definition i ll try and get that later literally oh mohammed the word fasad means mischief but it s a mischief on the order of magnitude indicated by the word corruption it s when someone who is doing something wrong to begin with seeks to escalate the hurt yeah you mohammed disorder concern harm etc the mischief initially caused by their actions the wrong is specifically related to attacks against god and his messenger and mischief corruption disorder etc you slimy mass of pond scum resulting from that the attack need not be a physical attack and there are different levels of penalty proscribed depending on the extent of the mischief and whether the person or persons sought to make hay of the situation the severest punishment is death yeah right you re the one should be watching your butt you and your buddy allah the stereo he sold me croaked after two days your ass is grass jim yeah that s right jim
alt.atheism	re cruel was re political atheists kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes they spent quite a bit of time on the wording of the constitution they picked words whose meanings implied the intent we have already looked in the dictionary to define the word isn t this sufficient we only need to ask the question what did the founding fathers consider cruel and unusual punishment hanging hanging there slowing being strangled would be very painful both physically and psychologicall i imagine well most hangings are very quick and i imagine painless firing squad note not a clean way to die back in those days etc all would be considered cruel under your definition all were allowed under the constitution by the founding fathers and hangings and firing squads are allowed today too and if these things were not considered cruel then surely a medical execution painless would not be either keith
alt.atheism	re cruel was re political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes they spent quite a bit of time on the wording of the constitution i realise that this is widely held belief in america but in fact the clause on cruel and unusual punishments like a lot of the rest was lifted from the english bill of rights of just because the wording is elsewhere does not mean they didn t spend much time on the wording we have already looked in the dictionary to define the word isn t this sufficient since the dictionary said that a lack of mercy or an intent to inflict injury or grief counted as cruel sure people can be described as cruel in this way but punishments cannot keith
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes no i say religious law applies to those who are categorized as belonging to the religion when event being judged applies this who does the categorizing i d cheat on hillary too john laws local gop reprehensitive extolling traditional family values
alt.atheism	re cruel was re political atheists in article qnpa inn av gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes hanging hanging there slowing being strangled would be very painful both physically and psychologicall i imagine well most hangings are very quick and i imagine painless i think this is a misnomer firing squad note not a clean way to die back in those days etc all would be considered cruel under your definition all were allowed under the constitution by the founding fathers and hangings and firing squads are allowed today too and if these things were not considered cruel then surely a medical execution painless would not be either but this just shows then that painful execution is not considered cruel and unusual punishment this shows that cruel as used in the constitution does not refer to whether or not the punishment causes physical pain rather it must be a different meaning i d cheat on hillary too john laws local gop reprehensitive extolling traditional family values
alt.atheism	re the nonexistance of atheists in article kutluk ccl umist ac uk kutluk ccl umist ac uk kutluk ozguven writes atheists are not mentioned in the quran because from a quranic point of view and a minute s reasoning one can see that there is no such thing i guess that s why scientists probably aren t mentioned either or stock brokers or television repairmen it s precious to know just how deep the brainwashing from childhood that it takes to progress a religion cleans away a very substantial part of the reasoning neurons but don t mind me i don t exist jim halat
alt.atheism	re an anecdote about islam in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes deletion sure yes i did you see i don t think that rape and murder should be dealt with lightly you being so interested in leniency for leniency s sake apparently think that people should simply be told the did a bad thing straw man and you brought up leniency and what about the simple chance of misjudgements misjudgments should be avoided as much as possible i suspect that it s pretty unlikely that given my requirement of repeated offenses that misjudgments are very likely assuming that misjudgements are not correlated deletion i just love to compare such lines to the common plea of your fellow believers not to call each others names in this case to substantiate it the quran allows that one beats one s wife into submission really care to give chapter and verse we could discuss it has been discussed here chapter and verse were cited i assume that you weren t looking then let s be more exact do you think it is not in the quran and what would your consequences be when it it was shown to be in it primitive machism refers to that i have misspelt that before my fault again not all of the orient follows the qur an so you ll have to do better than that i have not claimed that it is sufficient for the argument when there are a lot of male dominated societies that qualify as machistic are you going to say that the situation of women is better in sufficeint areas of the orient deletion this is an argument for why you don t like religions that suppress sex a such it s an irrelevant argument if you d like to generalize it to an objective statement then fine my response is then you have given no reason for your statement that sex is not the business of religion one of your arguments the urge for sex in adolescents is not so strong that any overly strong measures are required to suppress it if the urge to have sex is so strong in an adult then that adult can make a commensurate effort to find a marriage partner you apparently have trouble reading things you don t like the point was having sex the way one wishes being a strong desire marriage is a red herring tell me about homosexuals for one you simply ignore everything that doesn t fit into the world as you would like to have it and as for the situation of adolescents one has probably keep your combination of leniency and maiming in mind whe you say that it does not take overly strong measures to suppress the urge for sex in adolescents benedikt
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie in article apr eagle wesleyan edu kmagnacca eagle wesleyan edu writes deletion nope germany has extremely restrictive citizenship laws the ethnic germans who have lived in russia for over years automatically become citizens if they move to germany but the turks who are now in their third generation in germany can t that s wrong they can benedikt
alt.atheism	re a little too satanic jon livesey writes so why do i read in the papers that the qumram texts had different versions of some ot texts did i misunderstand reading newspapers to learn about this kind of stuff is not the best idea in the world newspaper reporters are notoriously ignorant on the subject of religion and are prone to exaggeration in the interests of having a real story that is a bigger headline let s back up to at this point we have the masoretic text the various targums translations commentaries in aramaic etc and the septuagint the ancient greek translation the masoretic text is the standard jewish text and essentially does not vary in some places it has obvious corruptions all of which are copied faithfully from copy to copy these passages in the past were interpreted by reference to the targums and to the septuagint now the septuagint differs from the masoretic text in two particulars first it includes additional texts and second in some passages there are variant readings from the masoretic text in addition to fixing predating the various corrupted passages it must be emphasized that to the best of my knowledge these variations are only signifcant to bible scholars and have little theological import the dead sea scroll materials add to this an ancient copy of almost all of isaiah and fragments of various sizes of almost all other ot books there is also an abundance of other material but as far as i know there is no sign there of any hebrew antecdent to the apocrypha the extra texts in the septuagint as far as analysis has proceeded there are also variations between the dss texts and the masoretic versions these tend to reflect the septuagint where the latter isn t obviously in error again though the differences thus far are not significant theologically there is this big expectation that there are great theological surprises lurking in the material but so far this hasn t happened the dss are important because there is almost no textual tradition in the ot unlike for the nt c wingate the peace of god it is no peace but strife closed in the sod mangoe cs umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace of god
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes ray netcom com ray fischer writes frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes plus questions for you why do subjectivists relativists nihilists get so het up about the idea that relativism is better than objectivism to the degree that relativism is a more accurate decription of the truth than is objectivism it provides more power and ability to control events i think you lose the right to talk about the truth once you say values are relative accuracy is a value judgement too it so happens i agree with the substance of what you say below but it s clear to me that at least some values are objective truth is better than falsehood peace is better than war education is better than ignorance we know these things if we know anything while i ll agree that these are generally held to be good things i question whether they come very close to being objective values especially considering that at one time or another each has been viewed as being undesirable i doubt you could even come up with anything that could be said to be universally good or bad and when i referred to the truth i was using the term hypothetically realizing full well that there may not even be such a thing assuming for the moment that morals are relative then two relativists can recognize that neither has a lock on the absolute truth and they can proceed to negotiate a workable compromise that produces the desired results no they cannot because they acknowledge up front that the desired results do not exist that after all is the meaning of compromise plus some problems if the relativists have no values in common compromise is impossible what happens then who if anyone is right what happens if one relativist has a value never compromise a value plant bombs in crowded shopping areas after all if morals are relative these values cannot meaningfully be said to be incorrect true enough but they cannot be said to be anything more than personal morals one thing notably lacking in most extremists is any sense of personal accountability the justification for any socially unacceptable behaviour is invariably some higher authority aka absolute moral truth assuming that there is an absolute morality two disagreeing objectivists can either be both wrong or just one of them right there is no room for compromise once you beleive in absolute morals you must accept that you are amoral or that everyone who disagrees with you is amoral untrue one can accept that one does not know the whole truth part of the objective truth about morality may well be that flexibility is better than rigidity compromise is better than believing you have a lock on morals etc in the same way i can believe in an objective reality without claiming to know the mechanism for quantum collapse or who shot jfk an objective truth that says one cannot know the objective truth interesting notion certainly one can have as one s morals a belief that compromise is good but to compromise on the absolute truth is not something most people do very successfully i suppose one could hold compromise as being an absolute moral but then what happens when someone else insists on no compromise how do you compromise on compromising given a choice between a peaceful compromise or endless contention i d say that compromise seems to be better and i would agree but it s bloody to pointless to speak of it if it s merely a matter of taste is your liking for peace any better founded than someone else s liking for ice cream i m looking for a way to say yes to that question and relativism isn t it almost invariably when considering the relative value of one thing over another be it morals or consequences people only consider those aspects which justify a desired action or belief in justifying a commitement to peace i might argue that it lets people live long healthy and peaceful lives while that much may well be true it is incomplete in ignoring the benefits of war killing off the most agressive member of society trimming down the population stimulating production the equation is always more complex than presented to characterize relative morals as merely following one s own conscience desires is to unduly simplify it ray fischer convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth ray netcom com than lies friedrich nietzsche
alt.atheism	re islamic banks was re slavery in article monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes in apr bmw mayo edu vdp mayo edu vinayak dutt writes so instead of calling it interest on deposits you call it returns on investements and instead of calling loans you call it investing in business that is in other words floating stocks in your company no interest is different from a return on an investment for one thing a return on an investment has greater risk and not a set return i e the amount of money you make can go up or down or you might even lose money the difference is the risk of loss is shared by the investor rather than practically all the risk being taken by the borrower when the borrower borrows from the bank but is it different from stocks if you wish to call an investor in stocks as a banker well then its your choice relabeling does not make it interest free it is not just relabeling as i have explained above it is relabeling also its still not interest free the investor is still taking some money as dividend on his investment ofcourse the investor in islamic banking its your so called bank is taking more risk than the usual bank but its still getting some thing back in return also have you heard of junk bonds vinayak vinayak dutt e mail vdp mayo edu standard disclaimers apply
alt.atheism	we don t need no stinking subjects in article ql avinn a gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes kcochran nyx cs du edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes kcochran nyx cs du edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes no if you re going to claim something then it is up to you to prove it think cold fusion well i ve provided examples to show that the trend was general and you or others have provided some counterexamples mostly ones surrounding mating practices etc i don t think that these few cases are enough to disprove the general trend of natural morality and again the mating practices need to be reexamined so what you re saying is that your mind is made up and you ll just explain away any differences at being statistically insignificant try to find immoral non mating related activities so you re excluding mating related activities from your natural morality no but mating practices are a special case i ll have to think about it some more so you ll just explain away any inconsistancies in your theory as being a special case yes i think that the natural system can be objectively deduced with the goal of species propogation in mind but i am not equating the two as you so think that is an objective system isn t necessarily the natural one are you or are you not the man who wrote a natural moral system is the objective moral system that most animals follow indeed but while the natural system is objective all objective systems are not the natural one so the terms can not be equated the natural system is a subset of the objective ones you just equated them re read your own words now since homosexuality has been observed in most animals including birds and dolphins are you going to claim that most animals have the capacity of being immoral i don t claim that homosexuality is immoral it isn t harmful although it isn t helpful either to the mating process and when you say that homosexuality is observed in the animal kingdom don t you mean bisexuality a study release in found that of female seagulls are lesbians well i m saying that these goals are not inherent that is why they must be postulates because there is not really a way to determine them otherwise although it could be argued that they arise from the natural goal but they are somewhat removed postulate to assume posit that s right the goals themselves aren t inherent i can create a theory with a postulate that the sun revolves around the earth that the moon is actually made of green cheese and the stars are the portions of angels that intrudes into three dimensional reality you could but such would contradict observations now apply this last sentence of your to your theory notice how your are contridicting observations i can build a mathematical proof with a postulate that given the length of one side of a triangle the length of a second side of the triangle and the degree of angle connecting them i can determine the length of the third side but a postulate is something that is generally or always found to be true i don t think your postulate would be valid you don t know much math do you the ability to use sas to determine the length of the third side of the triangle is fundemental to geometry guess which one people are going to be more receptive to in order to assume something about your system you have to be able to show that your postulates work yes and i think the goals of survival and happiness do work you think they don t or are they not good goals goals postulates again if one of the goals of this objective natural morality system you are proposing is survival of the species then homosexuality is immoral kcochran nyx cs du edu b c d e f g k m r s t tsakc my thoughts my posts my ideas my responsibility my beer my pizza ok
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in qkq t n horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp writes attempting to define objective morality i ll take a wild guess and say freedom is objectively valuable i base this on the assumption that if everyone in the world were deprived utterly of their freedom so that their every act was contrary to their volition almost all would want to complain so long as you keep that almost in there freedom will be a mostly valuable thing to most people that is i think you re really saying a real big lot of people agree freedom is subjectively valuable to them that s good and a quite nice starting point for a moral system but it s not universal and thus not objective therefore i take it that to assert or believe that freedom is not very valuable when almost everyone can see that it is is every bit as absurd as to assert it is not raining on a rainy day it isn t in sahara disclaimer it s great to be young and insane
alt.atheism	re political atheists in article ql qinn kf gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes kcochran nyx cs du edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes schneider natural morality may specifically be thought of as a code of ethics that a certain species has developed in order to survive wait are we talking about ethics or morals here is the distinction important yes we see this countless times in the animal kingdom and such a natural system is the basis for our own system as well huh well our moral system seems to mimic the natural one in a number of ways please describe these number of ways in detail then explain the any contradictions that may arise in order for humans to thrive we seem to need to live in groups here s your problem we seem to need what s wrong with the highlighted word i don t know what is wrong is it possible for humans to survive for a long time in the wild yes it s possible but it is difficult humans are a social animal and that is a cause of our success define difficult and in order for a group to function effectively it needs some sort of ethical code this statement is not correct isn t it why don t you think so explain the laws in america stating that you have to drive on the right hand side of the road and by pointing out that a species conduct serves to propogate itself i am not trying to give you your tautology but i am trying to show that such are examples of moral systems with a goal propogation of the species is a goal of a natural system of morality so anybody who lives in a monagamous relationship is not moral after all in order to ensure propogation of the species every man should impregnate as many women as possible no as noted earlier lack of mating such as abstinence or homosexuality isn t really destructive to the system it is a worst neutral so if every member of the species was homosexual this wouldn t be destructive to the survival of the species for that matter in herds of horses only the dominate stallion mates when he dies is killed whatever the new dominate stallion is the only one who mates these seems to be a case of your natural system of morality trying to shoot itself in the figurative foot again the mating practices are something to be reexamined the whole theory needs to be reexamined kcochran nyx cs du edu b c d e f g k m r s t tsakc my thoughts my posts my ideas my responsibility my beer my pizza ok
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article ursa bear com halat pooh bears jim halat writes in article qjd o nlv horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes firstly science has its basis in values not the other way round so you better explain what objective atoms are and how we get them from subjective values before we go any further atoms are not objective they aren t even real what scientists call an atom is nothing more than a mathematical model that describes certain physical observable properties of our surroundings all of which is subjective rest deleted you were a liberal arts major weren tcha guess you never saw that photo of the smallest logo in the world ibm made with noble gas atoms krypton xenon i forget the specifics atoms trees electrons are all independently observable and verifiable morals aren t see the difference tep men who love brown tend to be warm and deep sensitive to the needs and desires of their partners sex is a hour a day thing snuggling by the fire walking in the rain or catching snowflakes on their tongue is a real turn on to a lover of brown thanx becka
alt.atheism	re death penalty was re political atheists jbrown batman bmd trw com writes in apr batman bmd trw com responding to dave first with official a a nickname fuller the death penalty is a deterrent dave the person executed will never commit a crime again guaranteed that means that it is an effective anti recidivism measure it does not say that it deters an individual from committing a capital crime in the first place the true question is whether the threat of death is likely to actually stop one from murdering or commiting treason are there any other capital crimes anywhere in the usa that is if there were no death penalty would its introduction deter a would be criminal from committing her his crime i doubt it this is only the first step even if it were a strong deterrent short of being a complete deterrent i would reject it for what about the case of the innocent executed and even if we could eliminate this possibility i would reject the death penalty as immoral this makes me something of a radical on the issue although i think there are many opponents of captial punishment who agree with me but who find the innocent executed the strongest argument to make i would if magically placed in charge facilitate state aided suicide for criminals who have life sentences this could be a replacement for capital punishment those who don t want to live the rest of their lives in jail would always have this option scott sauyet ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in c l tg k q news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu writes if some society came up with a good reason for why rape and murder are ok i would be consistent with my position and hold that it was still wrong my basis of morality is not on societal norms or on current legalities my basis is surprise surprise on both the bible and on inherent moral abhorrences ah but what exactly is inherently abhorrent and why is it so what you re saying is in effect i think some things are repulsive and i know a whole bunch of other people who agree with me so they should be deemed absolutely immoral now and forever period which in and of itself is nice enough to some extent i agree with you but i do not agree that things are inherently or absolutely immoral they are labeled immoral each for its own good reason and if the reason can even theoretically change then so can the label yes that s vague and the only way i know off the top of my head to defend it is to say that all humans are similarly made yes that falls into the trap of creation no it doesn t humans are to some extent similar because we all belong to the same species that that species has evolved is another story altogether to a certain extent evolution can even lend credence to moral absolutism of a flavour my arguments are that it is better to exhibit trust goodness love respect courage and honesty in any society rather than deceipt hatred disrespect cowardness and dishonesty you re saying morality is what ll keep society alive and kicking it is i think up to a point but societies are not all alike and neither are their moralities no i haven t been everywhere and seen everyone but according to my thesis i don t have to since i hold that we were all created similarly similar identical if that makes an unfalsifiable thesis just say so and i ll both work out what i can and punt to fellow theists no it s falsifiable through finding someoe who was created different whatever that might be in the real world disclaimer it s great to be young and insane
alt.atheism	re yet more rushdie re islamic law in article qla g afp fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes i hope an islamic bank is something other than bcci which ripped off so many small depositors among the muslim community in the uk and elsewhere grow up childish propagandist gregg i m really sorry if having it pointed out that in practice things aren t quite the wonderful utopia you folks seem to claim them to be upsets you you have done no such thing bbci was an example of an islamically owned and operated bank what will someone bet me they weren t real islamic owners and operators an islamic bank is a bank which operates according to the rules of islam in regard to banking this is done explicitly by the bank this was not the case with bcci and why did these naive depositors put their life savings into bcci rather than the nasty interest motivated western bank down the street this is crap bcci was motivated by the same motives as other international banks with perhaps an emphasis on dealing with outlaws and the intelligence services of various governments so please don t try to con us into thinking that it will all work out right next time back to childish propaganda again you really ought to get a life rather than wasting bandwith on such empty typing there are thousands of islamic banks operating throughout the world which no one ever hears about if you want to talk about corrupted banks we can talk about all the people who ve been robbed by american banks gregg
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie in article qlb oinn shelley u washington edu jimh carson u washington edu james hogan writes p s t i come to my senses and accept the all knowing wisdom and power of the quran and allah not only that but allah himself drops by to congratulate me on my wise choice allah rolls a few bones and we get down then allah gets out the crisco bends over and invites me to take a spin around the block wow p s t i realize that maybe allah is looking for more of a commitment than i m ready for so i say man i ve got some programming to do gotta go i ll call you p s t thinking it over i renounce islam what loyalty jim it seems you ve been reading a little too much russell hoban lately as hemingway said my imitators always imitate the bad aspects of my writing hoban would no doubt say the same here gregg
alt.atheism	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article c l jo news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes in qlapk d v morrow stanford edu salem pangea stanford edu bruce salem writes in article c jrde m z news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes theory of creationism my theistic view of the theory of creationism there are many others is stated in genesis in the beginning god created the heavens and the earth wonderful now try alittle imaginative thinking huh imaginative thinking what did that have to do with what i said would it have been better if i said the world has existed forever and never was created and has an endless supply of energy and there was spontaneous generation of life from non life would that make me all wise and knowing and imaginative no but at least it would be a theory l warren kurt vonroeschlaub o kv iastate edu iowa state university math department carver hall ames ia j
alt.atheism	re you will all go to hell in jsn psuvm psu edu jsn psuvm psu edu writes who cares what the fellow wrote anyway i mean it came from psuvm so how could it possibly have been of any importance disperse smileys until no longer offended disclaimer it s great to be young and insane
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie re an anecdote about islam in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes well in one was not allowed to leave the domain of authority one is free to leave islam if one regards islamic law as a curse one should consider leaving islam the only way out seems to be death i d cheat on hillary too john laws local gop reprehensitive extolling traditional family values
alt.atheism	re death penalty was re political atheists in article apr daffy cs wisc edu mccullou snake cs wisc edu mark mccullough writes you exagerate to the point of libel i gave only unpopular reasons deliberately or do you think that we should have let iraq absorb kuwait i could make the tired old poland comparison but i think you ve heard it but the principle aplies never play a chamberlain and roll over to another country being invaded that only invites further invasions perhaps we ought not to have supported a known genocidist provided him with weapon systems tactical support technology etc we made suddam hussein what did bush call him oh yes an ally and a freind i d cheat on hillary too john laws local gop reprehensitive extolling traditional family values
alt.atheism	re you will all go to hell in article tan psuvm psu edu andrew newell tan psuvm psu edu writes in article jsn psuvm psu edu jsn psuvm psu edu writes you blashephemers you will all go to hell for not believing in god be prepared for your eternal damnation readers of the group how convenient that he doesn t have a real name let s start up the letters to the sysadmin shall we his real name is jeremy scott noonan vmoper psuvm psu edu should have at least some authority or at least know who to email postmast psuvm bitnet respectively p rfowles or p wverity the sys admins at the same node are probably a better idea than the operator benedikt
alt.atheism	re the inimitable rushdie re an anecdote about islam in article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu gregg jaeger writes deletion certainly it is a central aspect of islam to show mercy and to give those who ve done wrong even presuming rushdie did violate islamic law and committed crimes this was the basis for my posts regarding leniency which seemed not to have penetrated benedikt s skull you have demanded harsh punishments of several crimes repeating offenders have slipped in only as justification of harsh punishment at all typically religious doublespeak whenever you have contradictory statements you choose the possibility that suits your current argument it is disgusting that someone with ideas that would make theodore kkkaldis feel cozy can go along under the protection of religion gregg tell us would you kill idolaters benedikt
alt.atheism	re islam and scientific predictions was re genocide is caused by atheism in article apr monu cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au fred rice writes and it is he god almighty who created the night and the day and the sun and the earth all the celetial bodies swim along each in its rounded course holy quran hmm this agrees with the ptolemic system of the earth at the centre with the planets orbitting round it so copernicus and gallileo were wrong after all you haven t read very carefully if you look again you will see that it doesn t say anything about what is circling what anyway they are not moving in circles nor is there any evidence that everything goes around in a rounded course in a general sense wishy washy statements are not scientific benedikt
alt.atheism	re wholly babble was re free moral agency in article p psilink com robert knowles p psilink com writes deletion of course there is also the book of the subgenius and that whole collection of writings as well does someone know a ftp site with it benedikt
comp.graphics	call for presentations navy sciviz vr seminar call for presentations navy scientific visualization and virtual reality seminar tuesday june carderock division naval surface warfare center formerly the david taylor research center bethesda maryland sponsor ness navy engineering software system is sponsoring a one day navy scientific visualization and virtual reality seminar the purpose of the seminar is to present and exchange information for navy related scientific visualization and virtual reality programs research developments and applications presentations presentations are solicited on all aspects of navy related scientific visualization and virtual reality all current work works in progress and proposed work by navy organizations will be considered four types of presentations are available regular presentation minutes in length short presentation minutes in length video presentation a stand alone videotape author need not attend the seminar scientific visualization or virtual reality demonstration byoh accepted presentations will not be published in any proceedings however viewgraphs and other materials will be reproduced for seminar attendees abstracts authors should submit a one page abstract and or videotape to robert lipman naval surface warfare center carderock division code bethesda maryland voice fax e mail lipman oasys dt navy mil authors should include the type of presentation their affiliations addresses telephone and fax numbers and addresses multi author papers should designate one point of contact deadlines the abstact submission deadline is april notification of acceptance will be sent by may materials for reproduction must be received by june for further information contact robert lipman at the above address please distribute as widely as possible thanks robert lipman internet lipman oasys dt navy mil david taylor model basin cdnswc or lip ocean dt navy mil computational signatures and voicenet structures group code factsnet bethesda maryland phishnet stockings long legs the sixth sick shiek s sixth sheep s sick
comp.graphics	graphical representation of vector valued functions gnuplot etc make it easy to plot real valued functions of variables but i want to plot functions whose values are vectors i have been doing this by plotting arrays of arrows complete with arrowheads but before going further i thought i would ask whether someone has already done the work any pointers thanx in advance tom weston usenet weston ucssun sdsu edu department of philosophy office san diego state univ home san diego ca
comp.graphics	re dmorph in article apr usl edu jna ucs usl edu armstrong jay n writes can someone please tell me where i can ftp dta or dmorph dmorf dave s morph i think is what it means and dtax dave s tga assembler are available in the msdos uploads directory on the wuarchive they are arjed and bundled with their respective xmemory versions dmorfx exe and dtax exe you can also find a version of aaplay exe there with which you can view files you create with dta exe or dtax exe i downloaded the whole bunch last week and have been morphing away the afternoons since the programmes are all a bit buggy and definitely not ready to spread to the masses but they are very well written the interface is frustrating at first but it gets easy once you figure out the tricks i have noticed that dmorfx will crash horribly if you try to morph without using the splines option not sure why since i don t have the source i think it was written for tp if anyone else comes up with any other hints on getting the thing to work right tell me it took me several hours the first time just to figure out that if i just used the durned splines then it would work jna jna usl edu ryan rap cis ufl edu
comp.graphics	voice input vendor information needed hello i am looking to add voice input capability to a user interface i am developing on an hp unix workstation i would greatly appreciate information anyone would care to offer about voice input systems that are easily accessible from the unix environment the names or adresses of applicable vendors as well as any experiences you have had with specific systems would be very helpful please respond via email i will post a summary if there is sufficient interest thanks ken p s i have found several impressive systems for ibm pc s but i would like to avoid the hassle of purchasing and maintaining a separate pc if at all possible ken hinckley kph q virginia edu university of virginia neurosurgical visualization laboratory
comp.graphics	where can i find sipp i recently got a file describing a library of rendering routines called sipp simple polygon processor could anyone tell me where i can ftp the source code and which is the newest version around also i ve never used renderman so i was wondering if renderman is like sipp ie a library of rendering routines which one uses to make a program that creates the image thanks joe tham joe tham joth ersys edmonton ab ca
comp.graphics	re million vs thousand colors d hh dtek chalmers se henrik harmsen writes bits per r g b gives horrible machbanding visible in almost any picture bits per r g b colors gives visible machbanding color gradient picture has almost no machbanding this color resolution is see some small machbanding on the smooth color gradient picture but all in all there are situiations where you get visible mach banding even in a bit card if you create a very smooth color gradient of dark green white yellow or something and turn up the contrast on the monitor you will probably see some mach banding while i don t mean to damn henrik s attempt to be helpful here he s using a common misconception that should be corrected mach banding will occur for any image it is not the color quantization you see when you don t have enough bits it is the human eye s response to transitions or edges between intensities the result is that colors near the transistion look brighter on the brighter side and darker on the darker side andre andre yew andrey cco caltech edu
comp.graphics	translating tttddd to dxf or swiv d i am a mac user when it comes to graphics that s what i own software and hardware for and i ve recently come across a large number of tttddd format modeling databases is there any software mac or unix for translating those to something i could use like dxf please reply via email thanx eric oehler oehler picard cs wisc edu
comp.graphics	help on renderman language wanted hello everybody if you are using pixar s renderman d scene description language for creating d worlds please help me i m using renderman library on my next but there is no documentation about nextstep version of renderman available i can create very complicated scenes and render them using surface shaders but i can not bring them to life by applying shadows and reflections as far as i understand i have to define environmental and shadows maps to produce reflections and shadows but i do not know how to use them any advises or simple rib or c examples will be appreciated thanks in advance alex kolesov moscow russia talus imaging communications corporation e mail alex talus msk su next mail accepted
comp.graphics	re more gray levels out of the screen in article pp t cc tut fi jk lehtori cc tut fi kouhia juhana writes in article apr kpc com hollasch kpc com steve hollasch writes i think you re proposal would work to get an extra one maybe two extra bits of color resolution however if you had a display that chould do only zero or full intensity for each primary i don t think you d get great equivalent bit photographs i have not suggested to do so i wrote about problems and the problem were clearly visible with bit b w images not to mention bit images description of experiment deleted if the bit images are viewed quickly and in sync with screen then intensities could be better than we have i dunno more deleted in any case getting black color with slow machines is problem i could try it on our bit screens but i don t know how to render pixels with x in constant time i recall our double buffer has other image color and one b w that doesn t help either maybe i should dump photos to screen with low level code how a few years ago a friend and i took some grey level photos from a bit mac plus screen using this method displaying all levels synchronized to the hz display took about seconds after experimenting with different aperture settings and screen brightnesses we found a range that worked well giving respectable contrast the quality of the images was pretty good there were no visible contrast bands to minimize the exposure time the display program built different bit frames the first contained a dot only for pixels that had value the second only for pixels that had value etc these frames were stored using a sparse data structure that was very fast to or onto the screen in sequence creating these frames sometimes took minutes on that old mac but the camera shutter was closed during that time anyway and yes we wrote directly to the screen memory mea culpa our biggest problem was that small images were displayed in the top left corner of the screen instead of the center it took an extra week to have the film developed and printed because the processors took the trouble to manually move the all images into the center of the print who d have guessed regards jon rowlands
comp.graphics	re more gray levels out of the screen in article c c r btg csc ti com rowlands hc ti com jon rowlands writes a few years ago a friend and i took some grey level photos from a bit mac plus screen using this method displaying all levels synchronized to the hz display took about seconds why didn t you create grey level images and display them for time slices this requires the same total exposure time and the same precision in timing but drastically reduces the image preparation time no kenneth sloan computer and information sciences sloan cis uab edu university of alabama at birmingham a campbell hall uab station fax birmingham al
comp.graphics	re rumours about do in article h p s g zola esd sgi com erik westworld esd sgi com erik fortune writes better than cdi much better than cdi of course i do not agree it does have more horsepower horsepower is not the only measurement for better it does not have full motion full screen video yet does it have cd rom xa starting in the quarter of the first do multiplayer will be manufactured by panasonic and will be available late this year a number of other manufacturers are reported to have do compatible boxes in the works which other manufacturers we shall see about the date all this information is third hand or so and worth what you paid for it this is second hand but it still hard to look to the future lex van sonderen lex aimla com philips interactive media
comp.graphics	visuallib d graphics for windows i am currently looking for a d graphics library that runs on ms windows are there any such libraries out there other than visuallib it must run on vga and should not require any other add on graphics cards for visuallib will it run with metaware high c compiler v any email contact for the author of visuallib any help would be much appreciated thanks chua teck joo information technology institute email teckjoo iti gov sg science park drive phone singapore fax
comp.graphics	graphics library package hi all i am looking for a recommandation on a good royalty free graphics library package for c and c program this is mainly use to write children games and education software i heard someone mentioned genus and also gfx are they any good please pardon me if my question sounds a little strange i am asking this question for a friend thanks in advance caroline tsang cst garfield catt ncsu edu
comp.graphics	re rumours about do in article c eyz ix optimla aimla com lex optimla aimla com lex van sonderen writes in article h p s g zola esd sgi com erik westworld esd sgi com erik fortune writes better than cdi much better than cdi of course i do not agree it does have more horsepower horsepower is not the only measurement for better it does not have full motion full screen video yet does it have cd rom xa starting in the quarter of the first do multiplayer will be manufactured by panasonic and will be available late this year a number of other manufacturers are reported to have do compatible boxes in the works which other manufacturers we shall see about the date a do marketing rep recently offered a phillips marketing rep a bet that do would have boxes on the market on schedule the phillips rep declined the bet probably because he knew that do players are already in pre production manufacturing runs months before the commercial release date by the time of commercial release there will be other manufacturers of do players announced and possibly already tooling up production chip sets will be in full production the number of software companies designing titles for the box will be over how do i know this i was at a bar down the road from do headquarters last week some folks were bullshitting a little too loudly about company business all this information is third hand or so and worth what you paid for it this is second hand but it still hard to look to the future lex van sonderen lex aimla com philips interactive media what an impartial source
comp.graphics	re graphics library package 
comp.graphics	wanted sird alogorythmn hi i m interested in writing a program to generate a sird picture you know the stereogram where you cross your eyes and the picture becomes d does anyone have one or know where i can get one please e mail to steveq sndcrft dialix oz au with any replies many thanks for your help steve q
comp.graphics	any graphics packages available for aix does anybody know if there are any good d graphics packages available for ibm rs aix i m looking for something like dec s gks or hewlett packards starbase both of which have reasonably good support for different output devices like plotters terminals x etc i have tried also xgks from x distribution and ibm s implementation of phigs both of them work but we require more output devices than just x windows our salesman at ibm was not very familiar with graphics and i am not expecting for any good solutions from there ari ari suutari ari carel fi carelcomp oy lappeenranta finland
comp.graphics	re bw hardcopy of colored window mars ixos de martin stein writes i use xwd xpr from the x r dist and various programs of the ppm tools to print hardcopies of colored x windows my problem is i don t like xpr it gives at least the x r version does louzy output the hardcopy looks very grainy to me instead i use pnmtops this takes full advantage postscript and lets the printer do the dirty job of dithering a graylevel image to black and white dots so if you have a postscript printer try xwdtopnm xwdfile convert to ppm ppmtopgm to graylevel for smaller file to print pnmtops noturn to postscript lpr print pnmtops has several neat options but use them with care if you want your image to be wide use pnmtops noturn scale width noturn prevents the image from being rotated if it is wider than it is high width specifies the paper width not the image width see below scale is used because if the image is small it may fit within a width less than and will thus be printed smaller than wide if you first scale it up a lot it will certainly not fit in and will be scaled down by pnmtops automatically to fit the specified paper width in short pnmtops will scale an image down to fit the paper size but it will not blow it up automatically hope this helps marcel x marcel wijkstra aio wijkstra fwi uva nl x faculty of mathematics and computer science x university of amsterdam the netherlands life stinks fortunately i ve got a cold
comp.graphics	re more gray levels out of the screen in article apr cis uab edu sloan cis uab edu kenneth sloan writes why didn t you create grey level images and display them for time slices by grey level images you mean items of bit images it does work but it doesn t work if you have more than bit in your screen and if the screen intensity is non linear with bit per pixel there could be c c timing this gives levels but they are linear if screen intensity is linear with c c it works but we have to find the best compinations there s levels but choises best must be chosen different compinations for the same level varies a bit but the levels keeps their order readers should verify what i wrote juhana kouhia
comp.graphics	looking for ctds i can t find ctds connect the dots smoother in france if it is a commercial program i ll happily pay whatever it may cost do not take it litterally please help i have lots of pov sources texture images and animations though if you are looking for something just tell
comp.graphics	re pov previewer actually i am trying to write something like this but i encounter some problems amongst them drawing a d wireframe view of a quadric quartic requires that you have the explicit equation of the quadric quartic x y z functions of some parameters how to convert the implicit equation used by pov to an explicit one is it mathematically always possible i don t have enough math to find out by myself has anybody heard about useful books on the subject
comp.graphics	re real time graphics in article c va r kk taurus cs nps navy mil stockel oahu oc nps navy mil jim stockel writes hi i will be writing a data acquisition program to collect data from a variety of sources including rs and external a d s and i would like to be able to display the data in near realtime i ve done this type of thing on pc s and other machines but i am unaware of any graphics package that could help me with this on a unix machine does anyone have any ideas on commercial or free packages that might suit my needs i would really appreciate any input i m sure this has been done many times before for a commerical package try wave from precision visuals for a free package try khoros from university of new mexico ftp from ptrg eece unm edu login in anonyomus or ftp with a valid email address as the password cd pub khoros release that will get you to the right place david
comp.graphics	bgi drivers for svga i require bgi drivers for super vga displays and super xvga displays does anyone know where i could obtain the relevant drivers ftp sites regards simon crowe
comp.graphics	re vesa on the speedstar kjb mgl uvesa zip this is a universal vesa driver it supports most video boards chipsets include the speedstar and x up to bit color terry p s i ve tried it on a speedstar and x and it works not with all software for instance it doesn t work at all with animator pro from autodesk it can t detect any svga modes when running univesa this is really a problem as we need a vesa driver for both aa pro and some hi color stuff just out of curiosity are you using the latest version versions previous to this did not fill in all of the capabilities bits and other information correctly i had problems with a lot of software until i got this version i don t think the author got around to posting an announcementof it or at least i missed it but was available in the directory indicated as of i sure did use version it works fine with most software but not with animator pro and that one is quite important to me pretty useless program without that thing working imho so i hope the author can fix that daniel daniel falk don t quote me no comments ebenezum the great wizard d fad tekn hj se d fad hjds hj se also known as the mega famous musician jkpg sweeeeeden leinad of the yellow ones
comp.graphics	none set bear with me i m new at this game but could anyone explain exactly what dmorf does does it simply fade one bitmap into another or does it re shape one bitma p into another please excuse my ignorance i not even sure if i ve posted thi s message correctly
comp.graphics	help wanted for dmorf please bear with me as i am new at this game i apologize unreservedly if i hav e posted another message earlier by mistake but i digress could anyone out th ere please explain exactly what dmorf does dtax exe does it simply fade one bitmap into another or does it reshape one bitmap into another excuse my ignor ance
comp.graphics	test sorry 
comp.graphics	re rumours about do they need a hit software product to encourage software sales of the product i e the pong pacman visicalc dbase or pagemaker of multi media there are some multi media and digital television products out there already albeit not as capable as do s but are there compelling reasons to buy such yet perhaps someone in this news group will write that hit software
comp.graphics	technical help sought hi i am in immediate need for details of various graphics compression techniques so if you know where i could obtain descriptions of algo rithms or public domain source codes for such formats as jpeg gif and fractals i would be immensely grateful if you could share the info with me this is for a project i am contemplating of doing thanks in advance please reply via e mail if possible hbj
comp.graphics	surface normal orientations some rendering programs require that all surface normals point in the same direction ie on a closed cube all normals point outwards you can use the points on the faces to determine the direction of the normal by making sure that all points are either in clockwise or counter clockwise order how do you go about orienting all normals in the same direction given a set of points edges and faces say that you had a cube with all faces that have their normals facing outwards except for one face what s the best way to realize that face is flipped and should have it s points re ordered i thought i had a good way of telling this but then realized that the algorithm i had would only tell you if you had points in clockwise order for a d polygon i d like something for d data any hints tips references would be appreciated steve where humor is concerned there are no standards no one can say what is good or bad although you can be sure that everyone will john kenneth galbraith these opinions are my own
comp.graphics	re graphics library package wgt is the wordup graphics toolkit designed by yours truly and my co programmer and brother chris egerter it is a turbo borland c graphics library for programming in vga we are currently producing it as shareware but in a few years it may be a commercial product excuse typos there s no backspace on this terminal features include loading and saving bit images called blocks from herein flipping resizing and warping blocks loading and saving palette fading several in memory at once graphics primitives such as line circle bar rectangle region fill not the usually useless floodfill sprites animated bitmaps up to onscreen at once joystick mouse support sb support voc and cmf tile based game creation using pixel tiles to create a tile map or game world like in duke nuke em number of sprites increased to professional sprite creator utility and map maker routines to simplify scrolling games using maps etc fli playing routines sprites can be animated over the fli while playing pcx support soon gif ems xms coming soon as well leave e mail to barry egerter at egerter obelix gaul csd uwo ca files available on use mget wgt zip simtel and mirrors pd msdos turbo c nic funet fi pub msdos games programming some sites may not have recent files contact me for info regarding the up to date information
comp.graphics	re signature image database contact signaware corp original memo bcc vincent wall from imaging club subject signature verification date sent sci image processing from yyqi ece arizona edu yingyong qi subject signature image database organization u of arizona electrical and computer engineering hi all could someone tell me if there is a database of handwriting signature images available for evaluating signature verification systems thanks yy
comp.graphics	re surface normal orientations in article apr cis uab edu sloan cis uab edu kenneth sloan writes a brilliant algorithm not seriously it s correct up to a sign change the flaw is obvious and will therefore not be shown sorry about that kenneth sloan computer and information sciences sloan cis uab edu university of alabama at birmingham a campbell hall uab station fax birmingham al
comp.graphics	re genoa blitz hits x x ni i am sorry but this genoa card does nothing that the ati ultra plus mb can t do plus the ati costs us street price
comp.graphics	re surface normal orientations in article pscti aqe travis csd harris com srp travis csd harris com stephen pietrowicz writes how do you go about orienting all normals in the same direction given a set of points edges and faces look for edge inconsistencies consider two vertices p and q which are connected by at least one edge if p q is an edge then q p should not appear if both p q and q p appear as edges then the surface flips when you travel across that edge this is bad assuming warning warning warning that you have an otherwise acceptable surface you can pick an edge any edge and traverse the surface enforcing consistency with that edge pick an edge p q and mark it as ok for each face f containing this edge if more than oops make sure that all edges in f are consistent i e the face should be p q q r r s s t t p flip those which are wrong mark all of the edges in f as ok and add them to a queue check for duplicates and especially inconsistencies don t let the queue have both p q and q p remove an edge from the queue and go to if a marked edge is discovered to be inconsistent then you lose if step finds more than one face sharing a particular edge then you lose otherwise when done all of the edges will be consistent which means that all of the surface normals will either point in or out deciding which way is out is left as an exercise kenneth sloan computer and information sciences sloan cis uab edu university of alabama at birmingham a campbell hall uab station fax birmingham al
comp.graphics	re surface normal orientations in pscti aqe travis csd harris com srp travis csd harris com stephen pietrowicz writes how do you go about orienting all normals in the same direction given a set of points edges and faces this algorithm works well for me algorithm to attempt to find outward facing normals first mark all faces as unknown then create an edge dictionary that allows you to find all of the faces sharing a given edge where an edge is two integers representing the two shared vertices pick an arbitrary face and mark it counter clockwise using the edge dictionary orient all surrounding faces based on the orientation of this face and recurse for all surrounding faces consistently orienting the entire surface find the average of the vertices in this surface using that point calculate a volume measurement taking into account the face s orientation if the volume turns out to be positive assume the faces are oriented correctly if it is negative reverse their orientations mark them clockwise if any faces are still unknown after this choose another face and go through the algorithm again at the end faces marked clockwise must have their indices reversed before facet normals are found note if you are running on silicon graphics machines and buy the iris inventor d toolkit developers package you have the source to this algorithm see usr src inventor tools ivnorm if you re not sorry i can t give out the source and even if i could it relies heavily on inventor gavin gavin sgi com
comp.graphics	re million vs thousand colors andrey cco caltech edu andre t yew writes d hh dtek chalmers se henrik harmsen writes bits per r g b gives horrible machbanding visible in almost any picture bits per r g b colors gives visible machbanding color gradient picture has almost no machbanding this color resolution is see some small machbanding on the smooth color gradient picture but all in all there are situiations where you get visible mach banding even in a bit card if you create a very smooth color gradient of dark green white yellow or something and turn up the contrast on the monitor you will probably see some mach banding while i don t mean to damn henrik s attempt to be helpful here he s using a common misconception that should be corrected mach banding will occur for any image it is not the color quantization you see when you don t have enough bits it is the human eye s response to transitions or edges between intensities the result is that colors near the transistion look brighter on the brighter side and darker on the darker side andre yeah of course the term mach banding was not the correct one it should ve been color quantization effect although a bad color quantization effect could result in some visible mach bands on a picture that was smooth before it was quantizised henrik harmsen internet d hh dtek chalmers se chalmers university of technology sweden i haven t lost my mind it s backed up on tape somewhere
comp.graphics	re real time graphics in article apr falcon aamrl wpafb af mil dsnyder falcon aamrl wpafb af mil writes in article c va r kk taurus cs nps navy mil stockel oahu oc nps navy mil jim stockel writes hi opps typed in the phone numbers wrong here are the correct numbers for a commerical package try wave from precision visuals for a free package try khoros from university of new mexico ftp from ptrg eece unm edu login in anonyomus or ftp with a valid email address as the password cd pub khoros release
comp.graphics	iges viewer for dos windows anybody know of an iges viewer for dos windows i need to be able to display computervision iges files on a pc running windows thanks in advance brian h safford email bsaffo cad gmeds com electronic data systems phone note the views and opinions expressed herein are mine and do not reflect those of electronic data systems corp
comp.graphics	computer graphics to vcr help my friend and i have a class project in which we are trying to make a computer animated movie of sorts with the disney animation and would like to put what we have on a vcr is this possible is it easy and relatively cheap if so how we both have ibm compatibles but are relatively clueless with computers if you could help please do thanx brant ritter moshing a cosmic cesspool of physical delight a kiedas rhcp
comp.graphics	stereoscopic imaging i am interested in any information on stereoscopic imaging on a sun workstation for the most part i need to know if there is any hardware available to interface the system and whether the refresh rates are sufficient to produce quality image representations any information about the subject would be greatly appreciated thanks
comp.graphics	re fractals what good are they in article pdxgate uucp idr rigel cs pdx edu ian d romanick writes one thing a small change in initial conditions can cause a huge change in final conditions there are certain things about the way the plate tektoniks and volcanic activity effect a land scape that is while not entirely random unpredictable this is also true with fractals so one could also conclude that you could model this fractally yeah and it s also true most long complicated sequences of events calculations or big computer programs in general i don t argue that you can get similar and maybe useful results from fractals i just question whether you should the fractal fiends seem to be saying that any part of a system that we can t model should be replaced with a random number generator that has been useful for instance in making data more palatable to human perception or for torture testing the rest of the system but i don t think it has much to do with fractals and i certainly would rather that the model be improved in a more explicable manner i guess i just haven t seen all these earth shaking fractal models that explain and correlate to the universe as it actually exists i really hope i do but i m not holding my self similar breath there is one other thing that fractals are good for fractal image compression uh huh i ll believe it when i see it i ve been chasing fractal compression for a few years and i still don t believe in it if it s so great how come we don t see it competing with jpeg cause it can t i ll wager actually i have wagered i quit trying to make fractal compression work and i was trying because i don t think it s a reasonable alternative to other techniques it is neat though i ll reiterate my disbelief that everything is fractal that s why i don t think fractal compression as it is widely explained is practical i know barnsley and sloan have some tricks up their sleeves that make their demos work but i don t see anyone using it in a real product it s been six years since iterated systems was formed right there are always going to be questions until there s a product out there sloan replies the company plans to ship its first encoding devices in the summer he says in march iterated systems will have the other half of the system the decoders scientific american march page allen b don t even get me started
comp.graphics	complex i e with real and imaginary parts bio medical images are complex bio medical images available anywhere on the net for experimentation by complex i mean that every sampled data point has a magnitude and phase information both thanks for any pointers vishwa
comp.graphics	mpeg for ms dos does anyone know where i can ftp mpeg for dos from thanks for any help in advance email is preferred but posting is fine scott lord soth knight email to lordsoth uiuc of the black rose next to sas sumter cso uiuc edu i have no clue what i want to say in here so i won t say anything
comp.graphics	help i need a complete list of all the polygons that there are in order i ll summarize to the net if only i had been compiled with the g option
comp.graphics	re help colors display in c you ll probably have to set the palette up before you try drawing in the new colours use the bios interrupt calls to set the r g b values in the range from for most cards for a particular palette colour in the range from for colour modes then you should be able to draw pixels in those palette values and the result should be ok you might have to do a bit of colourmap compressing if you have more than unique rgb triplets for a colour mode geoff thomas geoffrey cosc canterbury ac nz computer science dept university of canterbury private bag christchurch oook new zealand
comp.graphics	re rumours about do stgprao st unocal com richard ottolini writes they need a hit software product to encourage software sales of the product i e the pong pacman visicalc dbase or pagemaker of multi media there are some multi media and digital television products out there already albeit not as capable as do s but are there compelling reasons to buy such yet perhaps someone in this news group will write that hit software i ve just had the good fortune to be hired by electronic arts as senior computer graphics artist at the vancouver canada office the timing has a lot to do with the do which ea is putting a lot of resources into i do not know of any titles to be developed as yet but will be happy to post as things develop i start there may markus tessmann
comp.graphics	re quicktime movie available in article johnsh mustang stu rpi edu i wrote i ve used the recently released macintosh application mpeg to quicktime to convert the excellent mpeg canyon mpg into a quicktime movie while anyone who would want this movie is perfectly able to convert it themselves i thought i d let the net know that i d be glad to mail copies of mine out the movie conversion took close to six hours on my poor little iicx in other words unless you ve got a quadra you might not want to tie up your machine in converting this file the movie is a fast fly through of a fractal generated canyon landscape the movie is seconds long and uses the compact video compressor i e quicktime v the movie looks okay on bit displays and looks absolutely awesome on and bit displays i d be happy to mail this movie to the first or so people who ask for it the only caveat is you need to be able to receive a nine megabyte mail message the movie was stuff it ed down to seven megs but binhex ruined that party if more then people want this movie then it s just more evidence that the net needs a dedicated quicktime ftp archive site c mon someone s gotta have a spare gb drive out there okay i ve received a whole lot of requests for the movie so for simplicity s sake i can t mail out any more than i ve already received as of edt tuesday maybe it ll pop up on a site sooner or later hugh johnson johnsh rpi edu rensselaer polytechnic institute welcome to macintosh troy new york usa
comp.graphics	qc msc code to view save images dear binary newsers i am looking for quick c or microsoft c code for image decoding from file for vga viewing and saving images from to gif tiff pcx or jpeg format i have scoured the internet but its like trying to find a dr seuss spell checker tsr it must be out there and there s no need to reinvent the wheel thanx in advance the internet is like a black hole
comp.graphics	autocad tiff can it be done hello i realize that this might be a faq but i have to ask since i don t get a change to read this newsgroup very often anyways for my senior project i need to convert an autocad file to a tiff file please i don t need anyone telling me that the autocad file is a vector file and the tiff is a bit map since i have heard that about times already i would just like to know if anyone knows how to do this or at least point me to the right direction any help greatly appreciated matt georgy
comp.graphics	gamma law correction hi i am digitizing a ntsc signal and displaying on a pc video monitor it is known that the display response of tubes is non linear and is sometimes said to follow gamma law i am not certain if these non linearities are gamma corrected before encoding ntsc signals or if the tv display is supposed to correct this also if grey levels for example are coded in a c program do these intensity levels appear with linear brightness on a pc monitor in other words does pc monitor display circuitry correct for gamma errrors your response is much appreciated amjad amjad soomro ccs computer science center u of maryland at college park email amjad wam umd edu
comp.graphics	mpeg for x windows mono needed hello and thank you for reading this request i have a mpeg viewer for x windows and it did not run because i was running it on a monochrome monitor i need the mono driver for mpeg play please post the location of the file or better yet e mail me at mlee eng sdsu edu
comp.graphics	re thining algorithm in article q innmi shelley u washington edu kshin stein u washington edu kevin shin writes i am trying obtain program to preprocess handwriting characters like thining algorithm graph alogrithm do anyone know where i can obtain those i usually use algorithms for graphics and image processing by theodosios pavlidis but other people here got them same idea and now of copies in the libraries have been stolen another reference is digital image processing by gonzalez and wintz wood which is widely available but a little expensive here i just checked today ab
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of in article apr galki toppoint de ulrich galki toppoint de writes according to the tiff specification the tiff version number bytes has been chosen for its deep philosophical significance last week i read the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy is this actually how they picked the number i m sure it is and i am not amused every time i read that part of the tiff spec it infuriates me and i m none too happy about the complexity of the spec anyway because i think their arbitrary but carefully chosen number is neither additionally i find their choice of bytes to begin a file with meaningless of themselves why not just use the letters tiff and no i don t think they should have bothered to support both word orders either and i ve found that many tiff readers actually don t ab
comp.graphics	re vga x graphics mode gchen essex ecn uoknor edu writes in article c doh ai constellation ecn uoknor edu greetings does anybody know if it is possible to set vga graphics mode to x instead of x any info is appreciated some vesa bios s support this mode x and any vga should be able to support this x by colors since it only requires bytes my a vesa tsr supports this it s the only vesa mode by card can support due to a restrictions a wd paradise i am not responsible for anything i do or say i m just an opinion robert j c kyanko rob rjck uucp
comp.graphics	re weitek p abraxis iastate edu writes in article abraxis class iastate edu anyone know about the weitek p graphics chip micron is selling it with their systems they rank them at winmarks any info would help thanks it s supposedly a high performance chip based upon workstation graphics accelerators it s quite fast i have but as usual with new boards chips the drivers are buggy for windows as far as winmarks go it depends upon the version i think i got m winmarks with version yielded the number i ve also benchmarked this with wintach at over from memory as well as far as the low level stuff goes it looks pretty nice it s got this quadrilateral fill command that requires just the four points it s very fast but beware of buggy drivers and otherwise no non windows support i am not responsible for anything i do or say i m just an opinion robert j c kyanko rob rjck uucp
comp.graphics	re delaunay triangulation in article lsk v inn c caspian usc edu zyeh caspian usc edu zhenghao yeh writes does anybody know what delaunay triangulation is is there any reference to it is it useful for creating d objects if yes what s the advantage it is used to create a tin triangulated irregular network which is basically a bunch of triangles which form a surface over a group of points what is special about it is that the triangles formed are the most equalateral possible check out proceedings of autocarto n where n is sorry i don t have a specific reference describing the process michael
comp.graphics	graphic formats i am writing some utilies to convert regis and tektonic esacpe sequences into some useful formats i would rather not have to goto a bitmap format i can convert them to window meta files easily enough but i would rather convert them to corel draw cdr or ms power point ppt files microsoft would not give me the format i was wondering if anybody out there knows the formats for these two applications
comp.graphics	re nice gif code there is a thing called xgif xgif is the grandfather of xv
comp.graphics	re rumours about do archer archer bad cop surly archer elysium esd sgi com archer how about interactive sex with madonna or sexium for short lars lars fischer fischer iesd auc dk it takes an uncommon mind to think of cs dept aalborg univ denmark these things calvin
comp.graphics	re forms for curses note the followup to header steelem rintintin colorado edu steele mark a writes is there a collection of forms routines that can be used with curses if so where is it located on my svr amiga unix box i ve got lform lmenu and lpanel for use with the curses library guess what they provide unix press ie prentice hall has a programmer s guide for these tools referred to as the fmli forms mgmt language interface and eti extended terminal interface now in it s nd edition it is isbn paraphrased from the outside back cover fmli is a high level programming tool for creating menus forms and text frames eti is a set of screen management library subroutines that promote fast development of application programs for window panel menu and form manipulation the fmli is a shell package which reads ascii text files and produces screen displays for data entry and presentation it consists of a shell like environment of the fmli program and it s database files it is section f in the unix press manual the eti are subroutines part of the x manual section provide support for a multi window capability on an ordinary ascii terminal with controls built on top of the curses library thanks mark steele steelem rintintin colorado edu frank crash edwards edwards edwards consulting voice crash ckctpa myrddin sybus com but please data don t ask uunet to route it it s sloooow there will be times in life when everyone you meet smiles and pats you on the back and tells you how great you are so hold on to your wallet
comp.graphics	re trying to view pov files merkelbd sage cc purdue edu brian merkel writes in article apr ornl gov ednobles sacam oren ortn edu edward d nobles writes i ve been trying to view tga files created in povray i have the diamond speedstar video board not the x so far i can convert them to jpeg using cjpeg and view them with cview but that only displays bit color i m looking for some way to convert and or view them in bit i have univesa uvesa zip and the dvpeg viewer but i don t get anything perhaps i am not setting up univesa properly if anyone has ideas about this please feel free to enlighten me just want to see the darn things in real color image alchemy aka alchemy will view the tga files that pov outputs and just about any other format you can think of it will also convert between all these it s shareware so it s probably available by ftp somwhere out there in netland yep alchemy works fine on my tseng dac but i think i remember reading that it only displays in bit or so of course that s still k colors which is nothing to sneeze at use the v flag neal miller why not go mad millernw craft camp clarkson edu clarkson university ford prefect dark craft camp clarkson edu
comp.graphics	hot new d software there is a new product for the ibm ers out there it is called imagine and it just started shipping yesterday i can personally attest that it will blow the doors off of d studio it is made by impulse and is in its rd version st for the ibm it can do morphing your standard key framming animation it is a raytracer reflections shadows and can do apply special fx to objects like ripple explode bounce things of that nature also it has algorithmic texture maps and your standard brushmapping also you can have animated brushmaps ie live video mapped on the objs also animated backdrops ie live video backgrounds also animted reflections maps you get the idea it will run for about retail i think dont let the low price fool you this product can do it all when it comes to d animation and renderering also does anyone here know how to get in the imagine mailing list please e mail me if you do or post up here oh the number for impulse is trb ra msstate edu
comp.graphics	re hot new d software in a previous article trb ra msstate edu tony r boutwell says there is a new product for the ibm ers out there it is called imagine and it just started shipping yesterday i can personally attest that it will blow the doors off of d studio it is made by impulse and is in its well i don t know about its competing with d studio but it s pretty powerful allright also does anyone here know how to get in the imagine mailing list please e mail me if you do or post up here yes send e mail to imagine request email sp paramax com with a header of something like subscribe i actually work on the faq frequently asked questions we should have the new version out of it by next week but if you want i could e mail you the previous one it details what the list is etc as well as answering basic questions about imagine hope this helps michael b comet software engineer graphics artist cwru mbc po cwru edu silence those who oppose the freedom of speech
comp.graphics	re vga x graphics mode in article snx rjck uucp rob rjck uucp robert j c kyanko writes gchen essex ecn uoknor edu writes in article c doh ai constellation ecn uoknor edu greetings does anybody know if it is possible to set vga graphics mode to x instead of x any info is appreciated some vesa bios s support this mode x and any vga should be able to support this x by colors since it only requires bytes my a vesa tsr supports this it s the only vesa mode by card can support due to a restrictions a wd paradise i am not responsible for anything i do or say i m just an opinion robert j c kyanko rob rjck uucp ahh no possibly you punched in the wrong numbers on your calculator color modes take a byte per pixel so time is which is k to be exact x x only takes k but i don t think it is a bios mode i wouldn t bet that all vga cards can do that either if a vga card has k i bet it can do both x and x that by definition is svga though not very high svga
comp.graphics	tin files coutours hi i am working on a project that needs to create contour lines from random data points the work that i have done so far tells me that i need to look into triangulated irregular networks tin the delauney criiterion and the krige method does anyone have any suggestions for references programs and hopefully source code for creating contours any help with this or any surface modeling would be greatly appreciated i can be reached at the addresses below paul conway pvconway copper denver colorado edu pvconway cudnvr denver colorado edu
comp.graphics	apr toronto siggraph event toronto siggraph what chance s art d graphics and animation on the indigo by ken evans imagicians artware inc when tuesday april pm pm where the mcluhan centre for culture and technology university of toronto a queen s park crescent toronto who members and non members alike non members encouraged to become members abstract imagicians artware inc is entering into early beta site testing on silicon graphics workstations of a new d abstract artwork and animation package called chance s art the package will be described and demonstrated and some of the technical issues will be discussed marketing plans will be outlined the talk will also present some of the technical and business problems increasingly confronting small startup software companies today and some of the opportunities this situation presents time after the event will be allocated for hands on demonstrations to interested parties silicon graphics is graciously providing an indigo for this event myck kupka will also be demonstrating his computerized interactive reflective stereoscope which is installed upstairs in the mcluhan centre so feel free to drop by for a demonstration before or after the event btw be sure to sing happy birthday myck the names of nominees for our siggraph executive offices will be announced at this meeting nominations will still be open until the election at our may th event call myck kupka at or fax to directions the mcluhan coachhouse is on the east side of queen s park crescent just north of wellesley south of st joseph st behind east of queen s park crescent which is the centre for mediaeval studies for information on toronto siggraph membership contact michael mccool via internet mccool dgp utoronto ca voice fax
comp.graphics	re delaunay triangulation zyeh caspian usc edu zhenghao yeh writes does anybody know what delaunay triangulation is is there any reference to it the delaunay triangulation is the geometrical dual of the voronoi tessellation and both constructions are derived from natural neighbor order aurenhammer f voronoi diagrams a survey of a fundamental geometric data structure acm computing surveys p okabe a boots b and sugihara k spatial tessellations concepts and applications of voronoi diagrams wiley sons new york isbn p watson d f computing the n dimensional delaunay tessellation with application to voronoi polytopes the computer j p watson d f natural neighbour sorting the australian computer j p dave watson internet watson maths uwa edu au department of mathematics the university of western australia tel nedlands wa australia fax
comp.graphics	ansi aiim ms standard image file format wing the suggestion of stu lynne i have posted the image file format executable and source code to alt sources herman silbiger
comp.graphics	re trying to view pov files in article apr ornl gov ednobles sacam oren ortn edu edward d nobles writes i ve been trying to view tga files created in povray i have the diamond speedstar video board not the x so far i can convert them to jpeg using cjpeg and view them with cview but that only displays bit color i m looking for some way to convert and or view them in bit just want to see the darn things in real color thanks jim nobles the best program i ve seen for viewing such files is vpic you ll want version or later x is current it allows you to view in and bit modes it really is quite nice now for a return question do you run windows if so what are the dates on your drivers the newest ones i can find are from around my problem is they conflict with star trek after dark and other things as well i m willing to bet that it s the drivers and not the programs anyone out there have info on newer ss not x drivers for windows or os thanks justin
comp.graphics	re looking for circle algorithm faster than bresenhams in article apr nwnexus wa com mpdillon halcyon com michael dillon writes i have an algorithm similar to bresenhams line drawing algorithm that draws a line by stepping along the minor axis and drawing slices like aaaa bbbb cccc in the following diagram aaaa bbbb cccc yes that s known as bresenhams run length slice algorithm for incremental lines see fundamental algorithms for computer graphics springer verlag berlin heidelberg i have tried to extrapolate this to circles but i can t figure out how to determine the length of the slices any ideas hmm i don t think i can help you with this but you might take a look at the following double step incremental generation of lines and circles x wu and j g rokne computer graphics and image processing vol no mar pp double step generation of ellipses x wu and j g rokne ieee computer graphics applications may pp graeme gill
comp.graphics	e mail of michael abrash 
comp.graphics	fonts in pov i have seen several ray traced scenes from mtv or was it rayshade with stroked fonts appearing as objects in the image the fonts chars had color depth and even textures associated with them now i was wondering is it possible to do the same in pov thanks noel
comp.graphics	polygon reduction for marching cubes dear reader i am searching for an implementation of a polygon reduction algorithm for marching cubes surfaces i think the best one is the reduction algorithm from schroeder et al siggraph so is there any implementation of this algorithm it would be very nice if you could leave it to me also i am looking for a fast connectivity test for marching cubes surfaces any help or hints will be very useful thanks a lot o o ooo ooo erwin keeve adress peter welter platz w cologne germany dept of computergraphics phone computeranimation fax academy of media arts cologne email keeve khm uni koeln de
comp.graphics	dmpeg zip info another dos mpeg decoder player posted i have posted a dos mpeg decoder player to alt binaries pictures utilities here is a short description and some technical information taken from the accompanying documentation dmpeg v public domain mpeg decoder by stefan eckart features dmpeg dmplay is another mpeg decoder player for the pc decodes nearly the full mpeg video standard i p b frames frame size up to at least x supported saves decoded sequence in or bit raw file for later display optional on screen display during decoding requires vga several dithering options ordered dither floyd steinberg grayscale color space selection runs under dos kb ram no ms windows required very compact small code small data models bit arithmetic real time display of the raw file by a separate player for vga and many super vgas technical information the player is a rather straightforward implementation of the mpeg spec the idct is based on the chen wang multiplication algorithm not quite the optimum i know blocks with not more than eight non zero coefficients use a non separated direct multiply accumulate d idct sounds great doesn t it which turned out to be faster than a fast algorithm in this quite common case dithering is pretty standard main difference to the berkeley decoder except for the fewer number of supported algorithms is the use of instead of colors the default option to use a restricted color space and the implementation of a color saturation dominant ordered dither this leads to a significantly superior quality of the dithered image i claim judge yourself restricted color space means that the u and v components are clipped to instead of and the display color space points are distributed over this restricted space since the distance between color space points is thus reduced by a factor of two the color resolution is doubled at the expense of not being able to represent fully saturated colors saturation dominant ordered dither is a method by which a color lying somewhere between the points of the display color space is approximated by primarily alternating between two points of constant hue instead of constant saturation this yields subjectivly better quality due to the lower sensitivity of the human viewing system to saturation changes than to hue changes the same reasoning as used by the pal tv standard to improve on ntsc the improvement is particularly visible in dark brown or redish areas stefan eckart stefan lis e technik tu muenchen de
comp.graphics	point within a polygon i am looking for an algorithm to determine if a given point is bound by a polygon does anyone have any such code or a reference to book containing information on the subject regards simon
comp.graphics	pov reboots pc after memory upgrade up until last week i have been running povray v on my under dos without any major problems over easter i increased the memory from meg to meg and found that povray reboots the system every time under dos i had a go at running povray in a dos window when running win on the same system and it now works fine even if a lot slower i would like to go back to using povray directly under dos anyone any ideas john john heaton nrs central administrator mcc network unit the university oxford road manchester m pl phone fax packet g yyh g yyh gb pwy gbr eu
comp.graphics	good shareware paint and or animation software for sgi does anyone know of any good shareware animation or paint software for an sgi machine i ve exhausted everyplace on the net i can find and still don t hava a nice piece of software thanks alot chad knock knock chad cipiti who s there af cleveland freenet edu cipiti bobcat ent ohiou edu it might be heisenberg chad voxel zool ohiou edu
comp.graphics	processing of stereo images i m interested in find out what is involved in processing pairs of stereo photographs i have black and white photos and would like to obtain surface contours i d prefer to do the processing on an sgi but would be interested in hearing what software hardware is used for this type of image processing please email and or post to comp sys sgi graphics your responses thanks dane hendrix email dane wizard dt navy mil dtmb a k a headquarters carderock div or hendrix oasys dt navy mil naval surface warfare center or hendrix nas nasa gov code bethesda md phone
comp.graphics	re weitek p robert j c kyanko rob rjck uucp wrote abraxis iastate edu writes in article abraxis class iastate edu anyone know about the weitek p graphics chip as far as the low level stuff goes it looks pretty nice it s got this quadrilateral fill command that requires just the four points do you have weitek s address phone number i d like to get some information about this chip joe green harris corporation jgreen csd harris com computer systems division the only thing that really scares me is a person with no sense of humor jonathan winters
comp.graphics	sun os and bit ascii graphics i would like to know if anyone has had any luck using the upper ascii characters on a sun station i am trying to convert a fortran program to run on a sun when we write character buffers to the sun which contain char or char or char etc we get characters on the screen but they are not the characters in the standard ascii tables any ideas or help will be appreciated
comp.graphics	re looking for circle algorithm faster than bresenhams on wed apr gmt graeme labtam labtam oz au graeme gill said graeme yes that s known as bresenhams run length slice algorithm for graeme incremental lines see fundamental algorithms for computer graphics graeme springer verlag berlin heidelberg i have tried to extrapolate this to circles but i can t figure out how to determine the length of the slices any ideas graeme hmm i don t think i can help you with this but you might graeme take a look at the following graeme double step incremental generation of lines and circles graeme x wu and j g rokne computer graphics and image processing graeme vol no mar pp graeme double step generation of ellipses x wu and j g rokne graeme ieee computer graphics applications may pp another paper you might want to consider is article fungdraw title a run length slice line drawing algorithm without division operations author khun yee fung and tina m nicholl and a k dewdney journal computer graphics forum year volume number pages c c khun yee khun yee fung clipper csd uwo ca department of computer science middlesex college university of western ontario london ontario canada n a b tel fax
comp.graphics	geometry package i am looking for a package which takes as inputs a set of geometric objects defined by unions of convex polytopes specified in some manner say by inequalities and equalities and determines in some reasonable form things like intersections unions etc etc does anyone know where i can find such a thing dan naiman department of mathematical sciences johns hopkins university
comp.graphics	re point within a polygon in article apr uk bull co uk scrowe hemel bull co uk simon crowe writes i am looking for an algorithm to determine if a given point is bound by a polygon does anyone have any such code or a reference to book containing information on the subject see the article an efficient ray polygon intersection p in graphics gems isbn the second step intersecting the polygon does what you want there is sample code in the book spl steve lamont sciviguy spl szechuan ucsd edu san diego microscopy and imaging resource uc san diego la jolla ca they are not bolsheviks just bullshitviks yevgeny yevtechenko again a meeting
comp.graphics	re distance between two bezier curves pes hutcs cs hut fi pekka siltanen writes suppose two cubic bezier curves control points v v and w w which have equal first and last control points v w v w how do i get upper bound for distance between these curves which distance the distance between one point t ti on the first curve and a point on the other curve with same parameter u ti any references appreciated thanks in anvance pekka siltanen
comp.graphics	re point within a polygon scrowe hemel bull co uk simon crowe writes i am looking for an algorithm to determine if a given point is bound by a polygon does anyone have any such code or a reference to book containing information on the subject well it s been a while since this was discussed so i take the liberty of reprinting without permission so sue me eric haines reprint of the very interesting discussion of this topic jonas o o x snip snip x o o give a man a fish and he ll eat one day give a man a fishing rod and he ll laze around fishing and never do anything with that in mind i reprint without permission so sue me relevant information posted some years ago on this very problem note the early use of postscript technology predating many of this year s papers listed in the april st siggraph program announcement posted here a few days ago eric intersection between a line and a polygon undecidable by dave baraff tom duff from deb charisma graphics cornell edu newsgroups comp graphics keywords p np jordan curve separation ursyhon metrization theorem organization program of computer graphics in article ncsmith ndsuvax uucp timothy lyle smith writes i need to find a formula algorithm to determine if a line intersects a polygon i would prefer a method that would do this in as little time as possible i need this for use in a forward raytracing program i think that this is a very difficult problem to start with lines and polygons are semi algebraic sets which both contain uncountable number of points here are a few off the cuff ideas first we need to check if the line and the polygon are separated now the jordan curve separation theorem says that the polygon divides the plane into exactly two open and thus non compact regions thus the line lies completely inside the polygon the line lies completely outside the polygon or possibly but this will rarely happen the line intersects the polyon now the phrasing of this question says if a line intersects a polygon so this is a decision problem one possibility the decision model approach is to reduce the question to some other well known problem q and then try to solve q an answer to q gives an answer to the original decision problem in recent years many geometric problems have been successfully modeled in a new language called postscript see postscript language by adobe systems incorporated isbn co so given a line l and a polygon p we can write a postscript program that draws the line l and the polygon p and then outputs the answer by output we mean the program executes a command called showpage which actually prints a page of paper containing the line and the polygon a quick examination of the paper provides an answer to the reduced problem q and thus the original problem there are two small problems with this approach there is an infinite number of ways to encode l and p into the reduced problem q so we will be forced to invoke the axiom of choice or equivalently zorn s lemma but the use of the axiom of choice is not regarded in a very serious light these days more importantly the question arises as to whether or not the postscript program q will actually output a piece of paper or in other words will it halt now postscript is expressive enough to encode everything that a turing machine might do thus the halting problem for postscript is undecidable it is quite possible that the original problem will turn out to be undecidable i won t even begin to go into other difficulties such as aliasing finite precision and running out of ink paper or both a couple of references might be principia mathematica newton i cambridge university press cambridge england sorry i don t have an isbn for this an introduction to automata theory languages and computation hopcroft j and ulman j the c programming language kernighan b and ritchie d a tale of two cities dickens c from td alice uucp tom duff summary overkill organization at t bell laboratories murray hill nj the situation is not nearly as bleak as baraff suggests he should know better he s hung around the labs for long enough by the well known dobbin dullman reduction see j dullman d dobbin j comp obfusc ii pp lemma a line polygon intersection can be reduced to hamiltonian circuit without the use of grobner bases so lpi to coin an acronym is probably only np complete besides turing completeness will no longer be a problem once our cray is delivered since it will be able to complete an infinite loop in milliseconds with scatter gather from deb svax cs cornell edu david baraff well sure its no worse than np complete but that s only if you restrict yourself to the case where the line satisfies a lipschitz condition on its second derivative i think there s an siggraph paper from caltech that deals with this j o n a s y n g v e s s o n email jonas y isy liu se dept of electrical engineering voice university of linkoping sweden fax
comp.graphics	re point within a polygon in article apr uk bull co uk scrowe hemel bull co uk simon crowe writes i am looking for an algorithm to determine if a given point is bound by a polygon does anyone have any such code or a reference to book containing information on the subject regards simon basically there are two algorithms determining whether a point is inside outside or on the polygon the first one is ray or half line method in this method you can draw any ray if the number of the intersection point of the ray and the polygon is even then it is outside if the number is odd then it is inside of cause you have to deal with the special cases which may make you headache the second method is pi algorithm draw the lines between the point and all the vertices on the polygon calculate and sum the angles of the successive lines if the result is pi then it is inside if pi then it is on the polygon otherwise it is outside my experience tells the second method is relible hope this helps yeh usc
comp.graphics	re two pointing devices in one com port bob davis sonny trantor harris atd com wrote in article c tkgm v unix portal com wil shell portal com ville v walveranta writes is there any way to connect two pointing devices to one serial port i haven t tried this but i believe they would interfere with each other even if only one at a time would be used just get an a b switch for rs look in computer shopper they are available fairly cheap they allow switching between two serial devices on a single port unfortunately the poster wants to use an internal and an external modem so a switch isn t going to help them if you aren t using your com ports for anything else just define them on different com ports define your internal modem to be say com and your external modem to be com you really shouldn t have to worry about interrupt conflicts since you won t be using both modems at the same time christopher chan nui investment in reliability will increase until it channui austin ibm com exceeds the probable cost of errors or until someone include disclaimer h insists on getting some useful work done
comp.graphics	re fractals what good are they in article pdxgate uucp idr rigel cs pdx edu ian d romanick writes they talked about another routine that could yield up to to compress with no image loss that i could notice the draw back is that it takes a hell of a long time to compress something i ll have to see if i can find the book so that i can give more exact numbers ttyl that s a typical claim though they say they ve improved compression speed considerably did you find out anything else about the book i d be interested in looking at it if you could give me any pointers reportedly early fractal compression times of hours used that marvelous piece of hardware called grad students to do the work supposedly it s been automated since about but i m still waiting to be impressed allen b sign me cynical
comp.graphics	re bgi drivers for svga dominic lai cs cylai cs ust hk wrote simon crowe scrowe hemel bull co uk wrote i require bgi drivers for super vga displays and super xvga displays does anyone know where i could obtain the relevant drivers ftp sites i would like to know too regards dominic garbo uwasa fi or one of its many mirrors has a file called svgabg in the programming subdirectory these are svga bgi drivers for a variety of cards from the readme card types supported supervga drivers ahead ati chips tech everex genoa paradise oak trident both and tseng both and chipsets and video these drivers will also work on video cards with vesa capability the tweaked drivers will work on any register compatible vga card enjoy clark verbrugge clump cs mcgill ca honk honk blat wak wak wak wak wak ungow
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of in article hc mentor cc purdue edu ab nova cc purdue edu allen b writes in article apr galki toppoint de ulrich galki toppoint de writes according to the tiff specification the tiff version number bytes has been chosen for its deep philosophical significance last week i read the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy is this actually how they picked the number i m sure it is and i am not amused every time i read that part of the tiff spec it infuriates me and i m none too happy about the complexity of the spec anyway because i think their arbitrary but carefully chosen number is neither additionally i find their choice of bytes to begin a file with meaningless of themselves why not just use the letters tiff and no i don t think they should have bothered to support both word orders either and i ve found that many tiff readers actually don t ab why so up tight for that matter tiff is out now so why not gripe about its problems also if its so important to you volunteer to help define or critique the spec finally a little numerology is backwards and tiff is a bit image format chris christopher p tully cptully med unc edu univ of north carolina chapel hill cb chapel hill nc i get paid for my opinions but that doesn t mean that unc or anybody else agrees with them
comp.graphics	interleaf to cgm has anyone successfully converted interleaf graphics to cgm or even heard of it being done we d love to hear about it mike mcconnell emm cray com
comp.graphics	re hollywood hits virtual reality sorry i missed you raymond i was just out in dahlgren last month i m the virtual reality market manager for silicon graphics so perhaps i can help a little in article mar relay nswc navy mil rchui nswc wo nswc navy mil raymond chui writes hello the real reality our agency started to express interest in virtual reality vr so far we do not know much about vr all we know about are the hollywood movies the terminater and lawnmover man we also know something about vr from abc news magazine and computer graphics world magazine unfortunately while sgi systems were used to create the special effects for both terminator and lawnmower man those are film quality computer graphics rendered in software and written to film a frame at a time each frame of computer animation for those films took hours to render on high end parallel processing computer systems thus that level of graphics would be difficult if not impossible to acheive in real time frames per second we certainly want to know more about vr who are the leading companies agencies universities what machines support vr i e sgi sun hp bim etc it depends upon how serious you are and how advanced your application is true immersive visualization vr requires the rendering of complex visual databases at anywhere from to newly rendered frames per second this is a similar requirement to that of traditional flight simulators for pilot training if the frame rate is too low the user notices the stepping of the frames as they move their head rapidly around the scene so the motion of the graphics is not smooth and contiguous thus the graphics system must be powerful enough to sustain high frame rates while rendering complex data representations additionally the frame rate must be constant if the system renders frames per second at one point then frames per second the next perhaps due to the scene in the new viewing direction being simpler than what was visible before the user can get heavily distracted by the medium the graphics computer rather than focusing on the data to maintain a constant frame rate the system must be able to run in real time unix in general does not support real time operation but silicon graphics has modified the unix kernel for its multi processor systems to be able to support real time operation bypassing the usual unix process priority management schemes uniprocessor systems running unix cannot fundamentally support real time operation not sun sparc not hp series systems not ibm rs not even sgi s uniprocessor systems like indigo or crimson only our multiprocessor onyx and challenge systems support real time operation due to their symmetric multi processing smp shared memory architecture from a graphics perspective rendering complex virtual environments requires advanced rendering techniques like texture mapping and real time multi sample anti aliasing of all of the general purpose graphics systems on the market today only crimson realityengine and onyx realityengine systems fully support these capabilities the anti aliasing is particularly important as the crawling jagged edges of aliased polygons is an unfortunate distraction when immersed in a virtual environment what kind of graphics languages are used with vr gl opengl phigs pex gks etc you can use the general purpose graphics libraries listed above to develop vr applications but that is starting at a pretty low level there are off the shelf software packages available to get you going much faster being targeted directly at the vr application developer some of the most popular are in no particular order division inc redwood city ca dvs sens inc sausalito ca worldtoolkit naval postgraduate school monterey ca npsnet free gemini technology corp irvine ca gvs simation series paradigm simulation inc dallas tx visionworks audioworks silicon graphics inc mountain view ca iris performer there are some others but not off the top of my head what companies are making interface devices for vr goggles or boom binocular omni orientational monitor hamlets gloves arms etc there are too many to list here but here is a smattering fake space labs menlo park ca boom virtual technologies inc stanford ca cyberglove digital image design new york ny the cricket d input kaiser electro optics carlsbad ca sim eye helmet displays virtual research sunnyvale ca flight helmet display virtual reality inc pleasantville ny head mtd displays s w software systems san jose ca d modeling software etc etc etc what are those company s addresses and phone numbers where we can get a list name of vr experts and their phone numbers and email addresses read some of the vr books on the market virtual reality ken pimental and ken texiera sp virtual mirage artificial reality myron kreuger etc or check out the newsgroup sci virtual worlds feel free to contact me for more info regards josh joshua mogal product manager advanced graphics division advanced graphics systems silicon graphics inc market manager north shoreline blvd virtual reality mountain view ca interactive entertainment m s l tel fax e mail mogal sgi com
comp.graphics	re point within a polygon in article jonas y gouraud jonas y isy liu se jonas yngvesson writes intersection between a line and a polygon undecidable by dave baraff tom duff from deb charisma graphics cornell edu in recent years many geometric problems have been successfully modeled in a new language called postscript see postscript language by adobe systems incorporated isbn co so given a line l and a polygon p we can write a postscript program that draws the line l and the polygon p and then outputs the answer by output we mean the program executes a command called showpage which actually prints a page of paper containing the line and the polygon a quick examination of the paper provides an answer to the reduced problem q and thus the original problem curiously in modern postscript the point in a polygon problem can be solved even more easily to wit title point in polygon creator allen b ab cc purdue edu for the amusement of comp graphics regulars languagelevel documentneededresource humor sense thereof endcomments this program will test whether a point is inside a given polygon currently it uses the even odd rule but that can be changed by replacing ineofill with infill these are level operators so if you ve only got level you re out of luck the result will be printed on the output stream caution only accurate to device pixels put a huge scale in first if you aren t sure point to test put x and y coordinates here vertices of polygon in counter clockwise order put array of pairs of coordinates here dup get aload pop moveto dup length dup roll sub getinterval aload pop lineto forall closepath ineofill yes no ifelse
comp.graphics	virtual reality for x on the cheap hi everyone i thought that some people may be interested in my vr software on these groups announcing the release of multiverse multiverse is a multi user non immersive x windows based virtual reality system primarily focused on entertainment research features client server based model using berkeley sockets no limit to the number of users apart from performance generic clients customizable servers hierachical objects allowing attachment of cameras and light sources multiple light sources ambient point and spot objects can have extension code to handle unique functionality easily attached functionality client the client is built around a fast render loop basically it changes things when told to by the server and then renders an image from the user s viewpoint it also provides the server with information about the user s actions which can then be communicated to other clients and therefore to other users the client is designed to be generic in other words you don t need to develop a new client when you want to enter a new world this means that resources can be spent on enhancing the client software rather than adapting it the adaptations as will be explained in a moment occur in the servers this release of the client software supports the following functionality o hierarchical objects with associated addressing o multiple light sources and types ambient point and spot o user interface panels o colour polygonal rendering with phong shading optional wireframe for faster frame rates o mouse and keyboard input some people may be disappointed that this software doesn t support the powerglove as an input device this is not because it can t but because i don t have one this will however be one of the first enhancements server s this is where customization can take place the following basic support is provided in this release for potential world server developers o transparent client management o client message handling this may not sound like much but it takes away the headache of accepting and terminating clients and receiving messages from them the application writer can work with the assumption that things are happening locally things get more interesting in the object extension functionality this is what is provided to allow you to animate your objects o server selectable extension installation what this means is that you can decide which objects have extended functionality in your world basically you call the extension initialisers you want o event handler registration when you develop extensions for an object you basically write callback functions for the events that you want the object to respond to current events supported init move change collide terminate o collision detection registration if you want your object to respond to collision events just provide some basic information to the collision detection management software your callback will be activated when a collision occurs this software is kept separate from the worldserver applications because the application developer wants to build a library of extended objects from which to choose the following is all you need to make a world server application o provide an initworld function this is where you choose what object extensions will be supported plus any initialization you want to do o provide a positionobject function this is where you determine where to place a new client o provide an installworldobjects function this is where you load the world wld file for a new client o provide a getworldtype function this is where you tell a new client what persona they should have o provide an animateworld function this is where you can go wild at a minimum you should let the objects move by calling a move function and let the server sleep for a bit to avoid outrunning the clients that s all there is to it and to prove it here are the line counts for the three world servers i ve provided generic lines dactyl lines more complicated collision detection due to the stairs will probably be improved with future versions dogfight lines location this software is located at the following site ftp u washington edu directory pub virtual worlds file multiverse tar z futures client o texture mapping o more realistic rendering i e z buffering or similar gouraud shading o hmd support o etc etc server o physical modelling gravity friction etc o enhanced object management interaction o etc etc both o improved comms i hope this provides people with a good understanding of the multiverse software unfortunately it comes with practically zero documentation and i m not sure whether that will ever be able to be rectified i hope people enjoy this software and that it is useful in our explorations of the virtual universe i ve certainly found fascinating developing it and i would love to add support for the powerglove and an hmd finally one major disclaimer this is totally amateur code by that i mean there is no support for this code other than what i out the kindness of my heart or you out of pure desperation provide i cannot be held responsible for anything good or bad that may happen through the use of this code use it at your own risk disclaimer over of course if you love it i would like to here from you and anyone with positive contributions criticisms is also encouraged to contact me anyone who hates it dev null and if anyone wants to let me do this for a living you know where to write thanks robert robert acsc com
comp.graphics	re virtual reality for x on the cheap update on location directory should be public virtual worlds sorry robert robert acsc com
comp.graphics	pcx hello help please i am a student of turbo c and graphics programming and i am having some problems finding algorithms and code to teach me how to do some stuff where is there a book or code that will teach me how to read and write pcx dbf and gif files how do i access the extra ram on my paradise video board so i can do paging in the higher vga modes ie x x x x anybody got a line on a good book to help answer these question thanks very much send reply s to palm snycanva bitnet peace be blessed be stephen palm
comp.graphics	what s a good assembly vga programming book can someone give me the title of a good vga graphics programming book please respond by email thanks yuan che yuan wang cw uxa cso uiuc edu cywang ux cso uiuc edu
comp.graphics	re fractals what good are they in regards to fractal commpression i have seen fractal compressed movies they were both fairly impressive the first one was a gray scale movie of casablanca it was mb and had minutes of fps video it was a little grainy but not bad at all the second one i saw was only minutes but it had bit color with fps and measured in at mb i consider the fractal movies a practical thing to explore but unlike many other formats out there you do end up losing resolution i don t know what kind of software hardware was used for creating the movies i saw but the guy that showed them to me said it took minutes per frame to generate but as i said above playback was or more frames per second and how else could you put minutes on one floppy disk davidr rincon ema rockwell com my opinions are my own except where they are shared by others in which case i will probably change my mind
comp.graphics	re re vga x graphics mode my a vesa tsr supports this can you report crt and other register state in this mode thank s serge ivanov serge argus msk su
comp.graphics	reaction diffusion techniques this past week i ve been playing with some of the r d reaction diffusion not to be confused with rds or r d techniques from siggraph i was wondering what material is available to explain the control mechanism a little more it seems to me very much like a matter of picking random magic numbers and sitting back and waiting although both of the papers turk and witkin kass were very well organized and extremely helpful i guess what i need is a more basic description of the technique especially wrt the control mechanisms the tests that i did had a tendency to either turn into blurry mud or become unstable is there any info available online source code would be great but not necessary thanks terran j boylan sr artist programmer it s better to have loved engineering animation inc ames ia and lost than just to have pm lost dorky dog
comp.graphics	bit graphics cards i am looking for eisa or vesa local bus graphic cards that support at least x x resolution i know matrox has one but it is very expensive all the other cards i know of that support that resoultion are striaght isa also are there any x servers for a unix pc that support bits thanks
comp.graphics	re fractal generation of clouds haabn nye nscee edu frederick j haab writes i need to implement an algorithm to fractally generate clouds as sort of a benchmark for some algorithms i m working on just as a matter of interest a self promo computer graphics sequence that one of the local tv stations used to play quite a lot a couple of years ago showed a d flyover of australia from the west coast to the east the clouds were quite recognisable as fuzzy flat white mandlebrot sets david silver
comp.graphics	please recommend d graphics library for mac hi netters i m building a cad package and need a d graphics library that can handle some rudimentry tasks such as hidden line removal shading animation etc can you please offer some recommendations i ll also need contact info name address email if you can find it thanks please post your responses in case others have same need bob carpenter
comp.graphics	re hot new d software in article qflpk re usenet ins cwru edu mbc po cwru edu michael b comet wrote in a previous article trb ra msstate edu tony r boutwell says there is a new product for the ibm ers out there it is called imagine and it just started shipping yesterday i can personally attest that it will blow the doors off of d studio it is made by impulse and is in its well i don t know about its competing with d studio but it s pretty powerful allright yes but a key issue is speed how fast is imagine and is it as easy to use as d studio can it just do a render as fast as ds if you don t want things like ior etc ds can do fine shadows animated reflection maps animated bump maps animated anything maps and with the ipas routines not that i ve ever seen them it can do explosions top quality morphing fire rain lens flares etc i m not knocking imagine i just want to know how it compares with ds
comp.graphics	raytracers which is best hi all i ve just recently become seriously hooked on pov but there are a few thing that i want to do that pov won t do penumbral shadows dispersion etc i was just wondering what other shareware freeware raytracers are out there and what can they do i ve heard of vivid and polyray and rayshade and so on but i d rather no wade through several hundred pages of manual for each trying to work out what their capabilities are can anyone help a comparison of tracing speed between each program would also be mucho useful mark mark mackey life is a terminal disease and oxygen is mmackey aqueous ml csiro au addictive are you hooked
comp.graphics	shareware recently i saw the latest computer shopper and in it there was an article on nice shareware graphics programs they looked pretty good and of the listed in the article one i had graphics workshop one i found via archie draft choice old version though and the rest i couldn t find so if there is anyone that knows where i can get the following programs via anonymous ftp please let me know adkins graphics ag zip ag zip draft choice latest vga version draftc zip envision publisher envis zip envis zip neopaint neopnt zip thanx in advance d petro david petro kwyjibo a big dumb balding dept of physics north american ape university of windsor petro server uwindsor ca
comp.graphics	re please recommend d graphics library for mac robert g carpenter writes hi netters i m building a cad package and need a d graphics library that can handle some rudimentry tasks such as hidden line removal shading animation etc can you please offer some recommendations i ll also need contact info name address email if you can find it thanks please post your responses in case others have same need bob carpenter i too would like a d graphics library how much do c libraries cost anyway can you get the tools used by say renderman and can you get them at a reasonable cost sorry that i don t have any answers just questions matt madsen mmadsen ics uci edu
comp.graphics	thinning algorithm hi netters i am looking for source code that can reads the ascii file or bitmap file and produced the thinned image for example to preprocess the character image i want to apply thinning algorithm thanks kevin
comp.graphics	looking for autocad dxf file parser hello does anyone know of any c or c function libraries in the public domain that assist in parsing an autocad dxf file please e mail thanks jogle geigel seas gwu edu
comp.graphics	delaunay triangulation does anybody know what delaunay triangulation is is there any reference to it is it useful for creating d objects if yes what s the advantage thanks in advance yeh usc
comp.graphics	re cylinder and ray in article qc fginnbv darkstar ucsc edu koehler secs ucsc edu writes i would be most thrilled if some kind person could help me with the following given a cylinder in d defined as a line segment between two points and a radius e g sx sy sz to ex ey ez and r what is the easiest and not too expensive way to find if a ray defined as another line through two points cuts through this cylinder and if so where i think the test for touching is rather simple if the closest approach of the two lines is less than r then the ray does penetrate the cylinder nope this won t work for a cylinder you can have a line arbitrarily close to the the cylinder backbone and yet not intersect it the test works for a pillbox though a cylinder with two hemispheres attached at the ends thanks ryan koehler secs ucsc edu arun
comp.graphics	re crimson was kubota announcement in article bu edu kiki problem with inews gateway file keith baccki writes c lee lee obiwan rsg hac com wrote did you say dec alpha upgrade path from xx replace upgrade path from vax x to alpha replace the system not totally fair you haven t mentioned the decstation series i think if sgi made cisc mainframes they wouldn t provide an upgrade path to an onyx i agree with you about the upgrade path but i think i was fair the original posting complained about sgi coming out with newer and better architectures and not having an upgrade path from the older ones and that dec did on statement i merely attempted to point out that all computer companies are constantly attempting to improve their product market position share in so doing they eventually come to a point where they have a new architecture and the only upgrade path is to replace the system and the particular system he was complaining about was in computer lifetimes relatively old on statement i felt dec s history of providing upgrades was not far superior than the industry average and that in my opinion sgi s history is better than dec s and what is dec doing with it s mips based decstation line are they going to abandon it for their alpha based line or provide an upgrade path to r s and tfp s and r s
comp.graphics	book of kells correction i aparantly mistyped the address for the ftp site which holds the images the correct address should be jupiter csd unb ca rather than jupiter csd unb edu they are in the directory pub library info jon williams university of northern iowa
comp.graphics	job job opportunity seri systems engineering research institute of kist korea institute of science and technology is looking for the resumes for the following position and need them by the end of june if you are interested send resumes to cad cae lab th floor systems engineering research institute korea institute of science and technology yousung gu eoeun dong daejon korea company systems engineering research institute title senior research scientist job description in depth knowledge of c working knowledge of computer aided design working knowledge of computer graphics working knowledge of virtual reality skills not required but desirable knowledge of data modeling virtual reality experience understanding of client server architecture requirement ph d job location daejon korea contact info chul ho lim cad cae lab th floor systems engineering research institute korea institute of science and technology yousung gu eoeun dong daejon korea phone fax e mail jxl
comp.graphics	chosing optimal colors for colormap hi i m looking for an algorithm that would generate a good cross section of rgb colours given a limited colour map size the problem i m writing an application for the pc that may have at most colors i want to use one colormap palette for the application but i d like it to contain an even spread of colours of the visible spectrum i could use a x x rgb cube but the problem is that a lot of those colours are almost identical to the human eye does anyone know how i can optimize my choice of colors
comp.graphics	re siggraph srnelson speedsail eng sun com scott r nelson writes dave mikelson almac co uk dave mikelson writes does anyone know if there is an open day for the public at any time that is not to attend conferences but just browse around the exhibits or are the exhibits etc just for fully registered attendees was free as long as you got it to siggraph on or before july for it was similar or free before july it is safe to assume that the same kind of deal will be available this year i just got my advance program and the card in the back is for the exhibits plus program the exhibits plus admission to a number of conference venues including a special general session behind the scenes computer graphics in film admission is not free but is a nominal exhibits are open august to get a copy of the advance program you can call the advance program itself is a good indication of the excitement of the conference register early and get in for free sorry doesn t work this year steve cunningham
comp.graphics	d studio works changes hi guys like all people in this group i m a fans of fractal and render sw my favourite are fractint pov dstudio now listen my ideas i have just starting now to be able to use dstudio quite well so i m simulating a full animation of a f grand prix unfortanatly just some lap i m very interested about all kind of prj ds and so on concerning about cars or parts of its motors wheel dxf are good enough does anyone have object to give me to complete my hard animation anyway any exchanges about object material project will be very apreciate is there a ftp site where i can find its i m looking for pov files too i m interested about cpu time comparision rendering images on pov dstusio thank to all email me at rosa ghost sm dsi unimi it
comp.graphics	re rumours about do dave optimla aimla com dave ziedman writes do is still a concept the software is what sells and what will determine its success apparantly you dont keep up on the news do was shown at ces to developers and others at private showings over software licensees currently developing software for it i would say that it is a lot more than just a concept
comp.graphics	re please recommend d graphics library for m in article g bcstec ca boeing com rgc bcstec ca boeing com robert g carpenter writes hi netters i m building a cad package and need a d graphics library that can handle some rudimentry tasks such as hidden line removal shading animation etc can you please offer some recommendations i ll also need contact info name address email if you can find it thanks please post your responses in case others have same need bob carpenter i ve been given the sites of some excellent d objects on all sorts of file formats here s where they are host plaza aarnet edu au location graphics graphics mirrors directory drwxr xr x apr avalon chinalake navy mil host compute cc ncsu edu location mirrors wustl graphics graphics mirrors directory drwxr xr x mar avalon chinalake navy mil host wuarchive wustl edu location graphics graphics mirrors directory drwxr xr x jan avalon chinalake navy mil see ya ajay
comp.graphics	about the various dxf format questions archie told me the following sites holding documentation about dxf host nic funet fi last updated apr location pub csc graphics format file rwxrwxr dec dxf doc host rainbow cse nau edu last updated jun location graphics formats file rw r r mar dxf doc host ftp waseda ac jp last updated apr location pub data graphic file rw r r nov dxf doc z j org wunsch ham dl dtl joerg wunsch uriah sax de if anything can go wrong or o o joerg sax de wutcd hadrian hrz tu chemnitz de it will joerg wunsch tcd dresden de
comp.graphics	re mpeg for x windows mono needed on sunsite unc edu in pub multimedia utilities unix find mpeg play tar z i find for mono it works best as mpeg play dither threshold though you can use mpeg play dither mono face it this is not be the best viewing situation also someone has made a patch for mpeg play that gives two more mono modes mono and halftone they are by jan pandonia canberra edu au jan newmarch and the patch can be found on csc canberra edu au under pub motif mpeg mono patch leon dent lcd umcc umich edu
comp.graphics	compiled version of vogl library for pc has anybody compiled vogl graphics library for ibm pc i need to call it from ms fortran but don t have ms c to compile the sources thanks for any help martti toivakka mtoivakk abo fi
comp.graphics	re virtual reality for x on the cheap has anyone got multiverse to work i have built it on svr mips svr s and sun sparcstation there seems to be many bugs in it the dogfight and dactyl simply do nothing after fixing a bug where a variable is defined twice in two different modules one needed setting to static else the client core dumped steve extn sts mfltd co uk uunet mfocus sts micro focus just like pariah i have no name rm rf west street living in a blaze of obscurity rum ruff splat newbury need courage to survive the day berkshire england a bort r etry i nfluence with large hammer
comp.graphics	micro world data bank ii i m looking for a database called micro world data bank ii a database with digital map information containing latitude longitude points it is said to be in the public domain if anyone knows a place where i can get it preferably ftp gopher mailserver etc otherwise snail mail please let me know i you have it yourself and are willing to send me the file drop me a line i ll be using it with a program called versamap by charles h culberson if anyone knows of another detailed database that can be used with this program preferably pd i would be very interested replies by e mail please directly to me i don t read this group regularly if there s interest i ll post a summary of course derk ederveen fidonet tel d n m ederveen research ptt nl ederveen hlsdnl bitnet fax x c nl admd net prmd ptt research o ptt research s ederveen i dnm i wish i was a warrior in every language that i speak lou reed
comp.graphics	looking for dr bala r vatti s email address hi i am looking for the email address of the author to a generic solution to polygon clipping communication of the acm july vol no i got information about the author as follows mr bala r vatti lcec river road hudson n h email vatti waynar lcec lockheed i want to get some related and detailed papers about the same topic from the author but i failed to send my email to the address any information is appreciated thank you very much best regards s h young kunii lab dept of information science faculty of science university of tokyo bunkyo ku hongo tokyo japan email young is s u tokyo ac jp
comp.graphics	round vs elliptical dot screens when using photoshop is there anyway to get an elliptical dot for the halftone screen rather than a round dot my printer would prefer an elliptical dot but i m not sure how to set it up i m sending from a mac iici to a linotronic l imagesetter and i am using photoshop to make my separations any help would be greatly appreshed t i a michael unscene michael maier computer artist anl z glued to the veiw email michael maier qmgate anl gov tv is the milk of amnesia phone michael maier
comp.graphics	sgi sales practices was crimson was kubota announcement in article hacgate scg hac com lee luke rsg hac com c lee writes the original posting complained about sgi coming out with newer and better architectures and not having an upgrade path from the older ones and that dec did no that s not what i was complaining about nor did i intend to suggest that dec was any better than sgi let me tell you about the lynx some day but be prepared with a large sedative if you do my comment regarding dec was to indicate that i might be open to other vendors that supported opengl rather than deal further with sgi what i am annoyed about is the fact that we were led to believe that we would be able to upgrade to a multiprocessor version of the crimson without the assistance of a fork lift truck i m also annoyed about being sold several personal irises at a previous site on the understanding that architecture would be around for a while rather than being flushed now i understand that sgi is responsible to its investors and has to keep showing a positive quarterly bottom line odd that i found myself pressured on at least two occasions to get the business on the books just before the end of the quarter but i m just a little tired of getting boned in the process maybe it s because my lab buys sgis in onesies and twosies so we aren t entitled to a peek under the covers as the big kids nasa for instance are this lab and i suspect that a lot of other labs and organizations doesn t have a load of money to spend on computers every year so we can t be out buying new systems on a regular basis the boxes that we buy now will have to last us pretty much through the entire grant period of five years and in some case beyond that means that i need to buy the best piece of equipment that i can when i have the money not some product that was built to paraphrase one previous poster s words to fill a niche to compete with some other vendor i m going to be looking at this box for the next five years and every time i look at it i m going to think about sgi and how i could have better spent my money actually your money since we re supported almost entirely by federal tax dollars now you ll have to pardon me while i go off and hiss and fume in a corner somewhere and think dark libelous thoughts spl steve lamont sciviguy spl szechuan ucsd edu san diego microscopy and imaging resource uc san diego la jolla ca my other car is a car too bumper strip seen on i
comp.graphics	re please recommend d graphics library for mac robert g carpenter writes hi netters i m building a cad package and need a d graphics library that can handle some rudimentry tasks such as hidden line removal shading animation etc can you please offer some recommendations i ll also need contact info name address email if you can find it thanks please post your responses in case others have same need bob carpenter the following is extracted from sumex aim stanford edu it should also be on the mirrors i think there is source for some applications that may have some bearing on your project poke around the source directory i ve never used this package nor do i know anyone who did but the price is right hope this helps cheinan abstracts of files as of thu apr pst directory info mac source binhex d grafsys hqx date fri mar from christian steffen ove franz cfranz iiic ethz ch to questions mac archive umich edu subject d grafsys in incoming directory a d grafsys short description follows programmers d grafsys vers now available version is mainly a bugfix for think c users this version now runs with think c i promise the docs now contain a chapter for c programmers on how to use the grafsys if you have problems feel free to contact me the other change is that i removed the fastperftrig calls from the fpu version to make it run faster those of you who don t know what all this is about read on programmers d grafsys what it is didn t you always have this great game in mind where you needed some way of drawing three dimensional scenes didn t you always want to write this program that visualized the structure of three dimensional molecules and didn t the task of writing your d conversions routines keep you from actually doing it well if the answer to any of the above questions is yes but what has it to do with this package read on grafsys is a think pascal c library that provides you with simple routines for building saving loading as resources and manipulating independent rotating around arbitrary achses translating and scaling three dimensional objects objects not just simple single line drawings grafsys supports full d clipping animation and some primitive hidden line hidden surface drawing with simple commands from within your program grafsys also supports full eye control with both perspective and parallel projections if you can t understand a word don t worry this is just showing off for those who know about it the docs that come with it will try to explain what it all means later on grafsys provides a powerful interface to supply your own drawing routines with data so you can use grafsys to do the d transformations and your own routines to do the actual drawing note that grafsys also provides drawing routines so you don t have to worry about that if you don t want to grafsys comes in two versions one for the and or above processors the other version uses fixed point arithmetic and runs on any mac both versions are source compatibel grafsys comes with an extensive manual that teaches you the fundamentals of d graphics and how to use the package if demand is big enough i will convert the grafsys to an object class library however i feelt that the way it is implemented now makes it easier to use for a lot more people than the select oop guild grafsys is free for any non commercial usage read the documentation enclosed enjoy christian franz
comp.graphics	re fonts in pov in article qg fc et wampyr cc uow edu au g wampyr cc uow edu au coronado emmanuel abad says i have seen several ray traced scenes from mtv or was it rayshade with stroked fonts appearing as objects in the image the fonts chars had color depth and even textures associated with them now i was wondering is it possible to do the same in pov thanks noel yes there are serveral programs which can convert font files eq the borland fonts to objects consisting of spheres cones etc i ve used a program forgot its name place but i can look for it which converted these borland fonts to three different raytracers vivid pov and polyray which i like more more flexibel faster use of expressions etc the program has a lot nice features so if interested give me a mail peter vanderveen visser el wau nl o o department of genetics agricultural university u wageningen the netherlands
comp.graphics	re vesa on the speedstar using the vmode command all you need to do is type vmode vesa at the dos prompt vmode is included with the speedstar i have used the vesa mode for autodesk animator pro geoffrey hansen mindlink bc ca inumerable confusions and a feeling of despair invariably emerge in periods of great technological and cultural transition marshall mcluhan
comp.graphics	re hot new d software i don t have nor imagine nor real d but as old amiga user i think you should take a look also to real d for the amiga i saw imagine on the amiga for a long time at my friend s home and i ve seen r d in action at bit movie in riccione italy an italian computer graphics contest many professionals using d studio on pc softimage for silicon graphics and imagine on the amiga were very impressed by the power of this programs sorry i ve lost the posting with full description of features of this great program for more informations give a look in comp sys amiga graphics representative of activa international told me that it will be out in weeks for the amiga and that pc ms windows silicon indigo and unix version are under development ciao sergio sergio ruocco ruocco ghost sm dsi unimi it via di vittorio i settimo milanese milano phone
comp.graphics	re pcx in article apr freenet carleton ca ad freenet carleton ca jason wiggle writes from ad freenet carleton ca jason wiggle subject pcx date wed apr gmt hello help please i am a student of turbo c and graphics programming and i am having some problems finding algorithms and code to teach me how to do some stuff where is there a book or code that will teach me how to read and write pcx dbf and gif files how do i access the extra ram on my paradise video board so i can do paging in the higher vga modes ie x x x x anybody got a line on a good book to help answer these question thanks very much send reply s to palm snycanva bitnet peace be blessed be stephen palm a book that i can somewhat recommend is pratical image processing in c by craig a lindley published by wiley it addresses reading writing to from pcx tiff files image acquisition manipulation and storage and has source code in the book the source is primarily written in turbo c and naturally has conversion possibilities i have converted some of it to quick c naturally the code has some problems in the book as usuall typos syntax etc are problems it can be a good learning experience for someone who is studying c there is also a companion disk with source available for order and overall the book is not bad i acquired the book at waldensoftware
comp.graphics	re please recommend d graphics library f what hardware do plan to run on workstation or pc cost level run time licensing needs bob robert a schmitt applied derivatives technology lehman brothers rschmitt shearson com
comp.graphics	need help with mitsubishi p u image printer our group recently bought a mitsubishi p u video printer and i could use some help with it we bought this thing because it has a parallel data input in addition to the usual video signal inputs and claimed to print gray level images however the manual that came with it only describes how to format the parallel data to print and bit pixel images after some initial problems with the parallel interface i now have this thing running from a parallel port of an hewlett packard workstation and i can print and bit pixel images just fine i called the mitsubishi people and asked about the level claim and they said that was only available when used with the video signal inputs this was not mentioned in the sales literature however they did say the p u can do bit pixel level images in parallel mode but they didn t have any information about how to program it to do so and they would call japan etc frankly i find it hard to believe that if this thing can do bit pixel images from the video source it can t store bits pixel in the memory it s not like memory is that expensive any more if anybody has any information on getting bit pixel or even bit pixel images out of this thing i would greatly appreciate your sending it to me thanks allan weber signal image processing institute university of southern california weber sipi usc edu
comp.graphics	need graph display edit i am looking for a program that is capable of displaying a graph with nodes and links and with the possibility to edit interactively the graph add one node change one link etc actually a very simple x program would be ok all i need is to put some boxes i e the nodes on a pane and be able to manipulate them with the mouse move add or delete boxes does anyone know if such program is available thanks for any help loris renggli phone swiss federal institute of technology fax math dept ch lausanne switzerland e mail renggli masg epfl ch
comp.graphics	re rumours about do in article apr rchland ibm com ricardo hernandez muchado ricardo rchland vnet ibm com writes and cd i s cpu doesn t help much either i understand it is a supposedly a variation of a running at something like mhz with this speed you truly need sprites wow a i d be very interested to get my hands on one of these especially considering the fact that motorola has not yet released the which is supposedly the next in the x lineup d ricardo the animation playback to which lawrence was referring in an earlier post is plain old quicktime with the compact video codec i ve seen digitized video some of apple s early commercials to be precise running on a centris at about fps very nicely bit color depth i would expect that using the same algorithm a risc processor should be able to approach full screen full motion animation though as you ve implied the processor will be taxed more with highly dynamic material sean mcmains check out the gopher phone university of north texas new bands info server fax p o box at seanmac acs unt edu e mail denton tx mcmains unt edu
comp.graphics	xga info hi has anyone more info about the xga chipset hw funcs truecolor resolutions any boards with xga out yet thanks rainer rainer leberle rleberle sparc cstp umkc edu university of kansas city mo new mail from clinton whitehouse dc gov no subject specified
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of cptully med unc edu christopher p tully pathology writes why so up tight for that matter tiff is out now so why not gripe about its problems also if its so important to you volunteer to help define or critique the spec hear hear finally a little numerology is backwards and tiff is a bit image format really i thought that the reason it was was that it is really but written as so that on intel chips you could get the proper value pete help stomp out the endian wars break some eggs on their sides peter mueller thebishop when a person commits a violation and sins highlndr ux cso uiuc edu unintentionally in regard to any of the pmueller mrcnext cso uiuc edu lord s holy things he is to bring to the lord as a penalty a ram from the flock
comp.graphics	re sgi sales practices was crimson was kubota announcement my comment regarding dec was to indicate that i might be open to other vendors that supported opengl rather than deal further with sgi opengl is a graphics programming library and as such is a great portable interface for the development of interactive d graphics applications it is not however an indicator of performance as that will vary strongly from machine to machine and vendor to vendor sgi is committed to high performance interactive graphics systems and software tools so opengl means that you can port easily from sgi to other platforms there is no guarantee that your performance would be comparable what i am annoyed about is the fact that we were led to believe that we would be able to upgrade to a multiprocessor version of the crimson without the assistance of a fork lift truck if your sales representative truly mislead you then you should have a valid grievance against us which you should carry up to your local sgi sales management team feel free to contact the local branch manager we understand that repeat sales come from satisfied customers so give it a shot i m also annoyed about being sold several personal irises at a previous site on the understanding that architecture would be around for a while rather than being flushed as one of the previous posts stated the personal iris was introduced in and grew to include the d d d and d as clock rates sped up over time as a rule of thumb sgi platforms live for about years this was true of the motorola based series the pi the professional series the early d s the power series parallel systems individual cpu subsystems running at a particular clock rate usually live for about years new graphics architectures at the high end gt vgx realityengine are released every months to years these are the facts of life if we look at these machines they become almost archaic after four years and we have to come out with a new platform like indigo onyx challenge which has higher bus bandwidths faster cpus faster graphics and i o and larger disk capacities if we don t we become uncompetitive from the user perspective you have to buy a machine that meets your current needs and makes economic sense today you can t wait to buy but if you need a guaranteed upgrade path for the machine ask the sales rep for one in writing if it s feasible they should be able to do that some of our upgrade paths have specific programs associated with them such as the performance protection program for older r based power series multiprocessing systems which allowed purchasers of those systems to obtain a guaranteed upgrade price for moving to the new onyx or challenge r based bit multiprocessor systems now i understand that sgi is responsible to its investors and has to keep showing a positive quarterly bottom line odd that i found myself pressured on at least two occasions to get the business on the books just before the end of the quarter but i m just a little tired of getting boned in the process if that s happening it s becausing of misunderstandings or mis communication not because sgi is directly attempting to annoy our customer base maybe it s because my lab buys sgis in onesies and twosies so we aren t entitled to a peek under the covers as the big kids nasa for instance are this lab and i suspect that a lot of other labs and organizations doesn t have a load of money to spend on computers every year so we can t be out buying new systems on a regular basis most sgi customers are onesy twosey types but regardless we rarely give a great deal of notice when we are about to introduce a new system because again like a previous post stated if we pre announced and the schedule slipped we would mess up our potential customers schedules when they were counting on the availability of the new systems on a particular date and would also look awfully bad to both our investors and the financial analysts who watch us most carefully to see if we are meeting our commitments the boxes that we buy now will have to last us pretty much through the entire grant period of five years and in some case beyond that means that i need to buy the best piece of equipment that i can when i have the money not some product that was built to paraphrase one previous poster s words to fill a niche to compete with some other vendor i m going to be looking at this box for the next five years and every time i look at it i m going to think about sgi and how i could have better spent my money actually your money since we re supported almost entirely by federal tax dollars five years is an awfully long time in computer years new processor technologies are arriving every years making a year old computer at least and probably generations behind the times the competitive nature of the market is demanding that rate of development so if your timing is really years between purchases you have to accept the limited viability of whatever architecture you buy into from any vendor there are some realities about the computer biz that we all have to live with but keeping customers happy is the most important so don t give up we know it josh joshua mogal product manager advanced graphics division advanced graphics systems silicon graphics inc market manager north shoreline blvd virtual reality mountain view ca interactive entertainment m s l tel fax e mail mogal sgi com
comp.graphics	rendering software for multi processor computer s hello i am searching for rendering software which has been developed to specifically take advantage of multi processor computer systems any pointers to such software would be greatly appreciated thanks billy carter software engineering section southwest research institute wcarter swri edu
comp.graphics	wanted map of the world type gifs hi can anyone direct me to map type gifs i am interesting in cartography and would find these gifs useful tia lee van dyke lvandyke balboa eng uci edu uucp infotec infotec com lee sunkist west sun com
comp.graphics	pov having trouble bump mapping a gif to a sphere hello i ve been trying to bump map a gif onto a sphere for a while and i can t seem to get it to work image mapping works but not bump mapping here s a simple file i was working with could some kind soul tell me whats wrong with this include colors inc include shapes inc include textures inc camera location direction up right look at object light source color white object sphere texture bump map gif surf gif note surf gif is a plasma fractal from fractint that is using the landscape palette map thanks in advance daniel daniel kennett dkennett sfu ca our minds are finite and yet even in those circumstances of finitude we are surrounded by possibilities that are infinite and the purpose of human life is to grasp as much as we can out of that infinitude alfred north whitehead
comp.graphics	point of intersection of n lines hi can anybody suggest robust algorithms code for computing the point of intersection on n d lines in a plane the data has outliers and hence a simple least squares technique does not seem to provide satifactory results please respond by e mail and i will post the summary to the newsgroups if there is sufficient interest thanks raj talluri member technical staff image understanding branch texas instruments central research labs dallas texas talluri csc ti com
comp.graphics	program included edge detection algorithms this program doesn t detect edges with compass operators and a laplacian operator it should output raw grey scale images with edges the output doesn t look like edges at all in novicee terms how do i correct the errors any improvements are welcome i ll even accept your corrected code if i convolve the input image with a digital gaussian by to remove noise will i get an improvement with the laplacian types of edge detection include stdio h include math h define imagewidth define imageheight unsigned char input image imageheight imagewidth unsigned char angles wanted imageheight imagewidth unsigned char magnitude image imageheight imagewidth int laplace op int compass op int compass op int compass op int compass op int compass op int compass op int compass op int compass op void compass row col int row col int value int op rows op cols int compass compass compass compass int compass compass compass compass compass compass compass compass compass compass compass compass for op rows op rows op rows for op cols op cols op cols if row op rows col op cols compass int input image row op rows col op cols compass op op rows op cols compass int input image row op rows col op cols compass op op rows op cols compass int input image row op rows col op cols compass op op rows op cols compass int input image row op rows col op cols compass op op rows op cols compass int input image row op rows col op cols compass op op rows op cols compass int input image row op rows col op cols compass op op rows op cols compass int input image row op rows col op cols compass op op rows op cols compass int input image row op rows col op cols compass op op rows op cols if compass compass value compass else value compass if value compass value compass if value compass value compass if value compass value compass if value compass value compass if value compass value compass if value compass value compass magnitude image row col char value void laplace row col int row col int op rows op cols magnitude image row col for op rows op rows op rows for op cols op cols op cols if row op rows col op cols magnitude image row col char int magnitude image row col int input image row op rows col op cols laplace op op rows op cols main file original image fp file laplace mag fp laplace mag fp laplace mag fp file compass mag fp int row col algo count original image fp fopen input image rb laplace mag fp fopen laplace magnitude wb compass mag fp fopen compass magnitude wb fread unsigned char input image sizeof unsigned char imageheight imagewidth original image fp for algo count algo count algo count for row row imageheight row for col col imagewidth col if algo count laplace row col else compass row col if algo count fwrite magnitude image sizeof char imageheight imagewidth laplace mag fp else fwrite magnitude image sizeof char imageheight imagewidth compass mag fp for a lot of au music ftp sounds sdsu edu then cat file au dev audio ub library catalog telnet bison acsu buffalo edu when in doubt ask xarchie xgopher or xwais
comp.graphics	re virtual reality for x on the cheap hi steve as the author of multiverse i feel i had better respond to your mailnote questioning whether anyone had managed to compile this software the quick answer is yes the long answer is yes but a few have had a few problems with their platforms not all unix s are the same you know as far as many bugs go it would probably be more useful to everyone including you if you were a bit more explicit platforms it has succesfully compiled and run on are rs dec ultrix sun solaris so it is possible the main problem is that i don t have access to other platforms than the rs so if there are portability problems then the only way i hear about them is by people letting me know and giving me a clue as to how to fix it as far as the software not doing anything do you really think i would bother releasing it if that was the case perhaps you didn t read the few docs that are supplied the dogfight world is made up of clients only so if you re in there on your own then you re not going to see anything the dactyl world has quite a lot of scenary so if you don t see anything there then this is definitely a problem one final word if you re not interested don t bother with it if you are interested then please remember that i m not asking for any money so why not try a little patience and constructive criticism maybe that will get results robert robert acsc com
comp.graphics	re hot new d software i don t think speed has been determined since it has never run on intel chips but on the amiga s motorola chips it was one of the fastest true ray tracers i don t think impulse would port it over and not take speed into consideration in terms of features and learning curve all that you stated for ds is also true for imagine and lots more but i ll have to admit that after years of use on the amiga the learning curve is very steep this is due only to the manual it is realy bad however there is a lot of after market support for this product including regular tips articles in many magazines such as avid and a great book by steve worley called understanding imagine this book i is not just recommened it is a must i think an important consideration should be price for ds not including tool packages under for imagine complete
comp.graphics	re cylinder and ray sketch rotate so cylinder axis is z axis intersect x y projection of line with projected cylinder similar to but easier than sphere intersection result no intersection one intersection or two intersections parameterized along line by t and t now look at z and compute intersections of line with top and bottom planes of cylinder this gives t and t the interval of intersection is then the bit of the line from t t intersect t t details left as an exercise for the reader s spencer w thomas info tech and networking b cfob genome informatician univ of michigan ann arbor mi spencer w thomas med umich edu fax
comp.graphics	sphere from points boy this will be embarassing if it is trivial or an faq given points non coplanar how does one find the sphere that is center and radius exactly fitting those points i know how to do it for a circle from points but do not immediately see a straightforward way to do it in d i have checked some geometry books graphics gems and farin but am still at a loss please have mercy on me and provide the solution thanks ed ed bolson university of washington cardiovascular research bolson u washington edu preferred bolson max bitnet bolson milton u washington edu if you must
comp.graphics	announce ivan sutherland to speak at harvard the harvard computer society is pleased to announce its third lecture of the spring ivan sutherland the father of computer graphics and an innovator in microprocessing will be speaking at harvard university on tuesday april at pm in aiken computations building room the title of his talk is logical effort and the conflict over the control of information cookies and tea will be served at pm in the aiken lobby admissions is free and all are welcome aiken is located north of the science center near the law school for more information send e mail to eekim husc harvard edu the lecture will be videotaped and a tape will be made available thanks eugene kim give me a place to stand and i will internet eekim husc harvard edu move the earth archimedes
comp.graphics	windows imagine has anyone who has ordered the new pc version of imagine actually recieved it yet i m just about ready to order but reading posts about people still awaiting delivery are making me a little paranoid has anyone actually held this piece of software in their own hands later jim nobles
comp.graphics	vga mode h routines available hi there i ve made a vga mode h graphics library available via ftp i originally wrote the routines as a kind of exercise for myself but perhaps someone here will find them useful they are certainly useable as they are but are missing some higher level functionality they re intended more as an intro to mode h programming a starting point the library assumes a processor but it is trivial to modify it for a if enough people ask i ll make the mods and re post it as a different version the routines are written in assembly tasm and are callable from c they are fairly simple but i ve found them to be very fast for my purposes anyway routines are included to enter and exit mode h define a virtual screen put and get pixels put a pixmap rectangular image with no transparent spots put a sprite image with see thru areas copy areas of the virtual screen into video memory etc i ve also included a simple c routine to draw a line as well as a c routine to load a color gif image into a buffer i also wrote a quick n dirty tm demo program that bounces a bunch of sprites around behind three windows the whole package is available on spang camosun bc ca in pub dos vgl zip it is zipped with pkzip g it is completely in the public domain as far as i m concerned do with it whatever you like however it d be nice to get credit where it s due and maybe an e mail telling me you like it if you don t like it don t bother mark morley camosun bc ca
comp.graphics	re please recommend d graphics library for mac i searched the u mich archives fairly thoroughly for d graphics packages i always thought it to be a mirror of sumex aim stanford edu i was wrong i ll look into grafsys it does sound interesting thanks cheinan bobc
comp.graphics	re please recommend d graphics library f sorry about not mentioning platform my original post was to mac programmer and then decided to post here to comp graphics i d like the d software to run on primarily mac in either c object pascal think or mpw but i ll port to windows later so a package that runs on mac and has a windows version would be ideal i m looking for a package that has low upfront costs and reasonable licensing costs of course bobc
comp.graphics	re sphere from points in article qkgbuinns n shelley u washington edu bolson carson u washington edu edward bolson writes boy this will be embarassing if it is trivial or an faq given points non coplanar how does one find the sphere that is center and radius exactly fitting those points i know how to do it for a circle from points but do not immediately see a straightforward way to do it in d i have checked some geometry books graphics gems and farin but am still at a loss please have mercy on me and provide the solution wouldn t this require a hyper sphere in space points over specifies a sphere as far as i can see unless that is you can prove that a point exists in space that is equi distant from the points and this may not necessarily happen correct me if i m wrong which i quite possibly am steve steven collins email steve crl hitachi co jp visiting computer graphics researcher phone hitachi central research lab tokyo fax
comp.graphics	re sphere from points bolson carson u washington edu edward bolson writes boy this will be embarassing if it is trivial or an faq given points non coplanar how does one find the sphere that is center and radius exactly fitting those points i know how to do it for a circle from points but do not immediately see a straightforward way to do it in d i have checked some geometry books graphics gems and farin but am still at a loss please have mercy on me and provide the solution it s not a bad question i don t have any refs that list this algorithm either but thinking about it a bit it shouldn t be too hard take three of the points and find the plane they define as well as the circle that they lie on you say you have this algorithm already find the center of this circle the line passing through this center perpendicular to the plane of the three points passes through the center of the sphere repeat with the unused point and two of the original points this gives you two different lines that both pass through the sphere s origin their interection is the center of the sphere the radius is easy to compute it s just the distance from the center to any of the original points i ll leave the math to you but this is a workable algorithm an alternate method would be to take pairs of points the plane formed by the perpendicular bisector of each line segment pair also contains the center of the sphere three pairs will form three planes intersecting at a point this might be easier to implement steve spworley netcom com
comp.graphics	rayshade to dxf rib etc strata i m a mac user who wants to use some of the rayshade models i ve built using macrayshade rayshade m with stratavision d since stratavision can import many different model files i thought this would be a cinch but i haven t been able to find a simple translator that will work on the mac any ideas stratavision d should be able to import dxf minicad super d swivel d professional out of the box and rib igs with externals also if anyone knows of any other translator externals available for stratavision d esp rayshade please e mail me btw i m going to send mail to the rayshade usrs mailing list tomorrow i misplaced the address but since most users of rayshade do not seem to operate with macs i m not getting my hopes up thanks in advance patrick hurh fnal fnal gov
comp.graphics	siggraph course notes i am looking for a copy of the following siggraph publication gomez j e comments on event driven annimation siggraph course notes if anyone knows of a location where i can obtain a copy of these notes i would appreciate if they could let me know thanks dkusswur falcon depaul edu
comp.graphics	cobra b video card help me does anyone out there in net land have any information on the cobra card the sticker on the end of the card reads model cobra b bios cobra v i havn t been able to find anything about it from anyone if you have any information on how to get a hold of the company which produces the card or know where any drivers are for it please let me know as far as i can tell it s a cga card that is taking up of my bit isa slots but when i enable the test patterns it displays much more than the usualy cga colors at least from what i can count thanks internet jele eis calstate edu bbs mirage gilligan tsoft net bbs mirage tsoft sf bay org mirage thetech com uucp apple com tsoft bbs mirage computer and video imaging major
comp.graphics	externel processes for d studio to all hi does anybody have the source code to the externel processes that comes with d studio and mabe som kind of doc for writing the processes your self lars author lars jorgensen p syntax bbs bad se syntax bbs denmark golded
comp.graphics	re text recognition software availability in article c ihqm v mentor cc purdue edu ab nova cc purdue edu allen b writes one more time is there any free ocr software out there i ask this question periodically and haven t found anything this is the last time if i don t find anything i m going to write some myself post here or email me if you have any leads or suggestions else just sit back and wait for me ab i m not sure if this is free or shareware but you can try to look to wsmrsimtel army mil directory pd msdos deskpub file ocr zip from the file simibm lst ocr zip b optical character recognition for scanners hope this helps roman valo valo cvt stuba cs slovak technical university bratislava slovakia
comp.graphics	re sphere from points in article qkgbuinns n shelley u washington edu bolson carson u washington edu edward bolson writes boy this will be embarassing if it is trivial or an faq center and radius exactly fitting those points i know how to do it for a circle from points but do not immediately see a straightforward way to do it in d i have checked some geometry books graphics gems and farin but am still at a loss please have mercy on me and provide the solution off the top of my head i might try given p p p p find p c center of sphere determined by p p dist p c p i radius p c is the same distance from our four points so dist p c p dist p c p dist p c p dist p c p of course we can square the whole thing to get rid of square roots distsq p c p distsq p c p distsq p c p distsq p c p plug in the variables into the distance formula simplify and the x c y c and z c terms cancel out leaving you with three linearly independent equations and three unknowns x c y c z c solve using your favorite method all the best john dr john s eickemeyer the lord god is subtle information technology institute but malicious he is not national computer board singapore email johne iti gov sg albert einstein
comp.graphics	re rumours about do in article apr mercury unt edu sean mcmains mcmains unt edu writes wow a i d be very interested to get my hands on one of these especially considering the fact that motorola has not yet released the which is supposedly the next in the x lineup d the is a variation of the that was done a few years ago by the european partners of motorola it has some integrated i o controllers and half a mmu but otherwise it s a think of it the same as the and were burkhard neidecker lutz distributed multimedia group cec karlsruhe eerp portfolio manager software motion pictures berkom ii project multimedia base technology digital equipment corporation neidecker nestvx enet dec com
comp.graphics	avi file format hi would someone please email the new avi file format i m sure that many people would like to know what it is exactly thank you mark gregory lecturer m gregory rmit edu au ph fax royal melbourne institute of technology department of communication and electronic engineering p o box v melbourne victoria australia mark gregory lecturer m gregory rmit edu au ph fax royal melbourne institute of technology department of communication and electronic engineering p o box v melbourne victoria australia
comp.graphics	re vga x graphics mode dutc student tc umn edu writes in article c g qb bmp news cis umn edu some vesa bios s support this mode x and any vga should be able to support this x by colors since it only requires bytes my a vesa tsr supports this it s the only vesa mode by card can support due to a restrictions a wd paradise i am not responsible for anything i do or say i m just an opinion robert j c kyanko rob rjck uucp ahh no possibly you punched in the wrong numbers on your calculator color modes take a byte per pixel so time is which is k to be exact x x only takes k but i don t think it is a bios mode i wouldn t bet that all vga cards can do that either if a vga card has k i bet it can do both x and x that by definition is svga though not very high svga yes i did punch in the wrong numbers working too many late nites i intended on stating x is bytes it s not in the bios just my vesa tsr i am not responsible for anything i do or say i m just an opinion robert j c kyanko rob rjck uucp
comp.graphics	cview answers a very kind soul has mailed me this reply for the bugs in cview since he isn t in the position to post this himself he asked me to post it for him but to leave his name out so here it comes cview has quite a number of bugs the one you mention is perhaps the most annoying but not the most dangerous as far as i can determine it has to do with the temp files that cview creates cview gives the user no control over where it places its temp files it just places them in its current directory the problem you mention occurs as far as i can tell when it runs out of disk space for its temp files it seems as if cview doesn t check properly for this situation as cview decodes a jpeg it seems to write out a temp file with all the pixel data with bit colour information then for bit displays it does the dithering again writing another file with the bit colour information while it is writing this second file it also writes the data to your colour card then when it does the last chunk of bit data it recopies all the data from the bit file to your screen again it does this last recopy operation for its fit to screen feature even when this feature is not enabled the result of this process is the following if it runs out of disk space when writing the first bit file all you ever see is as much data as it has room for and the last bit of data is simply repeated over and over again because cview never realizes the disk has filled up and disk writes reads aren t performed if it has enough room for the bit data but runs out of room for the bit data you see almost all of the picture as it does the dithering and writes to the screen card however then when it finishes the dithering and recopies the data from the bit file to screen for whatever reason it does this one again just gets a repetition of the last chunk of data for which there was room on the disk this is just a guess but probably fairly accurate at least the general idea is on track i think although i have probably made errors in details about file i o etc the way around this is of course to clear up sufficient disk space the temp files for large jpeg s x and bigger can be very large meg meg on some of the largest i have needed in excess of meg free disk space cview has a much more serious bug if you are trying to display a file from a floppy and you change floppies while cview has some temp file open on the floppy then cview in certain circumstances will write the directory and fat table i can t remember for the removed floppy onto the newly inserted floppy thus corruptimg the new floppy in a very serious possibly unrevcoverable way so be careful it is incredibly poor programming for a program to do this on the other hand when choosing files in the open files menu cview insists on doing a few disk reads every time one moves the hi lighter square incredibly annoying when it could do them all at once when it gets the directory info and really how much effort does it take to sort a directory listing with much thanks to the originator of this article rene walter renew stack urc tue nl will i drown in tears of sorrow is there hope for tomorrow will this world ever get better can t we all just live together i don t wanna live in strife i just wanna live my life i deserve to have a future the good girls future
comp.graphics	re alt raytrace potential group yes please create the group alt raytrace soon i m hooked on pov geez like i don t have anything better to do oh dave letterman is on
comp.graphics	shadow optical raytracing package hi everyone i am looking for some software called shadow as far as i know its a simple raytracer used in the visualization of synchrotron beam lines now we have an old version of the program here but unfortunately we don t have any documentation if anyone knows where i can get some docs or maybe a newer version of the program or even another program that does the same sort of thing i would love to hear from you ps i think shadow was written by a f cerrina anyone any ideas thanks gary serc daresbury lab
comp.graphics	character recognition is there any program available free or otherwise for taking a tiff or gif or some other bitmapped file and turning it or parts of it into ascii characters dos os or platform independent programs if possible thanks
comp.graphics	need a good concave convex polygon algorithm we need a good concave convex polygon conversion routine i ve tried a couple without much luck please e mail responses and i will post a summary of any replies thank you richard stoakley rws v uvacs cs virginia edu
comp.graphics	automatic layout of state diagrams hi i m hoping someone out there will be able to help our computer science project group we are doing computer science honours and our project is to do a graphical simulator for a finite state automata basically the program must draw a diagram of a fsa from a textual grammar showing circles for states and labeled arc s in between the problem is working out the best way to layout the states and draw the arc s in between so that as few arc s as possible cross each other if anyone has any suggestions algorithms bug free ready to compile c code that might help us it would be much appreciated thanks in advance gregory
comp.graphics	how do i compensate for photographic viewpoint and distortion hi to all out there we have this problem and i m not certain i m solving it in the correct way i was wondering if anyone can shed light on this or point me in the right place to look we have an x ray imaging camera and a metallic tube with a cylindrical hole passing through it at a right angle to the tube s axis image x ray source screen metallic tube we know source screen centre distance radius of the tube radius of the hole we do some calculations based on the image of the hole on the screen however the calculations are mathematically highly complex and must assume that the object s hole projects an image resembling an ellipse if the tube is not parallel to the screen in the centre of the screen however it is unlikely that the object is placed so conveniently firstly we must transform the major and minor axis of the ellipse i cannot know what the angle between the tube and screen is do i have to assume that they are parallel to do the transformation how do i do this transformation secondly there is a distortion of the image due to the screen being planar the source screen distance increases as we move away from the centre of the screen how can i compensate the ellipse s axis for this image distortion so please can anyone give us a few pointers here how do we transform the image so it appears as it would if it were in the centre of the screen and how do i deal with distortion due to the shape of the screen we d appreciate any help either posted or emailed thanks in advance simon simon marshall dept of computer science university of hull hull hu rx uk football isn t about life and death it s more important than that bill email s marshall cs hull ac uk phone fax shankley
comp.graphics	re sphere from points in article hcrlgw crl hitachi co jp steve hcrlgw steven collins writes in article qkgbuinns n shelley u washington edu bolson carson u washington edu edward bolson writes boy this will be embarassing if it is trivial or an faq given points non coplanar how does one find the sphere that is center and radius exactly fitting those points i know how to do it for a circle from points but do not immediately see a straightforward way to do it in d i have checked some geometry books graphics gems and farin but am still at a loss please have mercy on me and provide the solution wouldn t this require a hyper sphere in space points over specifies a sphere as far as i can see unless that is you can prove that a point exists in space that is equi distant from the points and this may not necessarily happen correct me if i m wrong which i quite possibly am steve sorry call the four points a b c and d any three of them must be non collinear otherwise all three could not lie on the surface of a sphere and all four must not be coplaner otherwise either they cannot all lie on a sphere or they define an infinity of them a b and c define a circle the perpendicular bisectors of ab bc and ca meet in a point p say which is the centre of this circle this circle must lie on the surface of the desired sphere consider the normal to the plane abc passing through p all points on this normal are equidistant from a b and c and its circle in fact it is a diameter of the desired sphere take the plane containing this normal and d if d lies on the normal any plane containing the normal will do this plane is at right angles to the abc one let e be the point there are normally two of them on the circumference of the abc circle which lies in this plane we need a point q on the normal such that eq dq but the intersection of the perpendicular bisector of ed and the normal is such a point and it exists since d is not in the plane abc and so ed is not at right angles to the normal algorithm is the sphere well defined check that a and b are not coincident failure find the line ab and check that c does not lie on it failure find the plane abc and check that d does not lie in it failure yes find its centre find the perpendicular bisectors of ab and ac find their point of intersection p find the normal to the plane abc passing through p line n find the plane containing n and d find the point e on the abc circle in this plane if d lies on n take e as a find the perpendicular bisector of ed line l find the point of intersection of n and l q q is the centre of the desired sphere pictures in the plane abc a p b c at right angles to abc in the plane containing n and d e d line n p q numerically if ed ep then q will be very close to p relative to the radius of the abc circle and subject to error it s best to choose d so that the least of ad bd and cd is larger than for any other choice bob douglas computing services university of oxford internet bob oxford ac uk address banbury road oxford ox nn uk telephone
comp.graphics	polygon orientation in dxf hi i m writing a program to convert dxf files to a database format used by a d graphics program i ve written my program stores the points of a polygon in ccw order i ve used d concepts a little and it seems that the points are stored in the order they are drawn does the dxf format have a way of indicating which order the points are stored in cw or ccw its easy enough to convert but if i don t know which way they are stored i dont know which direction the polygon should be visible from if dxf doesn t handle this can anyone recommend a workaround the best i can think of is to create two polygons for each one in the dxf file one stored cw and the other ccw but that doubles the number of polygons and decreases speed thanks in advance for any help patrice hugo hydra unm edu
comp.graphics	fractals what good are they we have been using iterated systems compression board to compress pathology images and are getting ratios of to without too much loss in quality it is taking about mins per image to compress on a mhz but decompression is almost real time on a in software alone
comp.graphics	re a book i found graphics covlir crockett c its rpi edu locks writes hello i happened to spot an excellent book in a bookstore about days ago though it is in c and assembly it teaches you the assembly as it goes along so if you re like me and have no assembler experience don t worry it has almost everything that i wanted to know and has working code rod covlin i just bought a copy i can t disagree that it is a very good book but unfortunately i was looking for the same graphics feature described in this book but not in x x or x x mode it is easy to accomodate all the pixel descriptor or color attributes in those modes into a afffff but not in x x which is what i am interested in i haven t finish the book but i affraid the author didn t talk much about this mode or other svga modes if anyone out there know any good book dealing with fast svga graphics manupulation scrolling repainting all other good stuff please send me mail programming guide to svga card is also welcome thanks in advance tiang t foo tiang uokmax ecn uoknor edu tiang t foo tiang uokmax ecn uoknor edu
comp.graphics	speedstar how to program the truecolor mode hello i purchased my new with a noname graphics card installed which is obviously speedstar compatible its name is vga truecolor it is accompanied with some drivers and the utilities vmode xmode and at least one more mode as well as some drivers for lotus windows etc only one of the drivers is told to provide the truecolor mode namely the windows driver nowhere else except in the ad is any pointer to the truecolor mode some articles in this group about the speedstar and some other facts made me believe that my card is compatible to that one does anybody out there know how this mode can be adjusted how can i write a driver which allows me to have millions of colors with a resolution of x with hz interlaced greetings wolfgang
comp.graphics	info needed d contour plotting hi everyone it s spend the money before it goes away time here at u florida and we need to find some pc based software that will do contour plotting with irregular boundaries i e a d profile of a soil system with a pond superimposed on it we ve given surfer a pond trial run but it interpolates contours out into the pond and or creates artifacts at the borders soil if anyone out there knows of a product i ld appreciate hearing about it if there is enough of a response i ll post a summary thanks and now back to lurking steve bloom soil water science u fl sab gnv ifas ufl edu
comp.graphics	vesa standard vga svga programming hi i have a few question about graphics programming in vga svga how vesa standard works any documentation for vesa standard at a higher resolution than x x or x x vga mode where the video memory a affff is no longer sufficient to hold all info what is the trick to do fast image manipulation i heard about memory mapping or video memory bank switching but know nothing on how it is implemented any advice anyone my interest is in x x mode should this mode be called svga mode what is the technique for fast image scrolling for the above mode how to deal with different svga cards your guidance to books or any other sources to the above questions would be greatly appreciated please send me mail thanks in advance tiang t foo tiang uokmax ecn uoknor edu tiang t foo tiang uokmax ecn uoknor edu
comp.graphics	re sphere from points from bolson carson u washington edu edward bolson given points non coplanar how does one find the sphere that is cnter and radius exactly fitting those points the equation of the sphere through the points x y z x y z is x y z x y z x y z x x x y y y z z z when this by determininant is expanded on its first column you get the equation in the form a x y z bx cy dz e if you need the center and radius jyst divide through by a it cannot be zero if the given points form a non degenerate tetrahedron and complete the square on x y and z to obtain x xc y yc z zc r rcb slacvm slac stanford edu bob beach
comp.graphics	re vesa on the speedstar i need a vesa driver for the diamond speedstar x that works i ve tried several and none work for the hicolor modes john cormack cormackj access digex com
comp.graphics	re delaunay triangulation in article lsk v inn c caspian usc edu zyeh caspian usc edu zhenghao yeh writes does anybody know what delaunay triangulation is is there any reference to it is it useful for creating d objects if yes what s the advantage there is a vast literature on delaunay triangulations literally hundreds of papers a program is even provided with every copy of mathematica nowadays you might look at this if you are interested in using it for creating d objects article boissonnat author j d boissonnat title geometric structures for three dimensional shape representation journal acm transactions on graphics month october year volume number pages
comp.graphics	re rumours about do the does exist it s number was licensed to philips to make their own variant this chip includes extra featurfes such as more i o ports i c bus making it more microcontroller like because of the confusion with numbering philips other products in the range with the core have been given differend numbers like pcf or pcd or something
comp.graphics	gif to bmp i m not sure if this is the correct place to ask this question if not please forgive me and point me in the right direction does anybody know of a program that converts gif files to bmp files and if so where can i ftp it from any help would be greatly appreciated please respond via e mail as i do not read this group very often thanks scott
comp.graphics	point within a polygon in article apr uk bull co uk scrowe hemel bull co uk writes i am looking for an algorithm to determine if a given point is bound by a polygon does anyone have any such code or a reference to book containing information on the subject regards simon function puntbinnenpolygoon auteur cornelis wessels datum omschrijving bepaalt of de aangeboden vector d p binnen of op de rand van het polygoon p valt wijzigingen clibstatus puntbinnenpolygoon polygoon p vector d p vector d o v w index aantal snijpunten n n aantal snijpunten n geefpolygoonlengte p geefpolygoonrandpunt p n o for n n n n geefpolygoonrandpunt p n v if o x p x v x p x o x p x v x p x w x p x interpoleerlineair o v w if w x p x w y p y return clibsucces else if w y p y aantal snijpunten kopieervector d v o if aantal snijpunten return cliberbuiten else return clibsucces cornelis wessels krommenoord zt rotterdam the netherlands kewe bskewe atr bso nl
comp.graphics	re any graphics packages available for aix in apr sun x res utc com mark sun x res utc com mark stucky writes in pr qninniag tahko lpr carel fi ari suutari ari tahko lpr carel fi wrote does anybody know if there are any good d graphics packages available for ibm rs aix i m looking for something like dec s gks or hewlett packards starbase both of which have reasonably good support for different output devices like plotters terminals x etc try graphigs from ibm it is an excellent package doug doug egan it s not what you got lockheed engineering and sciences co it s what you give houston tx tesla email egan blkbox com
comp.graphics	re vesa standard vga svga programming how vesa standard works any documentation for vesa standard the vesa standard can be requested from vesa vesa north first street suite san jose ca ask for the vesa vbe and super vga programming starndards vesa also defines local bus and other standards the vesa standard only addresses ways in which an application can find out info and capabilities of a specific super vga implementation and to control the video mode selection and video memory access you still have to set your own pixels at a higher resolution than x x or x x vga mode where the video memory a affff is no longer sufficient to hold all info what is the trick to do fast image manipulation i heard about memory mapping or video memory bank switching but know nothing on how it is implemented any advice anyone vesa defines a window that is used to access video memory this window is anchored at the spot where you want to write and then you can write as far as the window takes you usually k windows have granularities so you can t just anchor them anywhere also some implementations allow two windows my interest is in x x mode should this mode be called svga mode what is the technique for fast image scrolling for the above mode how to deal with different svga cards this is vesa mode h there is a set display start function that might be useful for scrolling your guidance to books or any other sources to the above questions would be greatly appreciated please send me mail your best bet is to write vesa for the info there have also been announcements on this group of vesa software karl schultz schultz vnet ibm com these statements or opinions are not necessarily those of ibm
comp.graphics	re please recommend d graphics library for mac rgc bcstec ca boeing com robert g carpenter writes hi netters i m building a cad package and need a d graphics library that can handle some rudimentry tasks such as hidden line removal shading animation etc can you please offer some recommendations it s really not that hard to do there are books out there which explain everything and the basic d functions translation rotation shading and hidden line removal are pretty easy i wrote a program in a few weeks witht he help of a book and would be happy to give you my source also quickdraw has a lot of d functions built in and think pascal can access them and i would expect that think c could as well if you can find out how to use the quickdraw graphics library it would be an excellent choice since it has a lot of stuff and is built into the mac so should be fast libertarian atheist semi anarchal techno rat i define myself tsa cellar org
comp.graphics	questions about plane eqn method of hidden surface removal what are the main advantages of this method i have seen it described and the algiorithm seems a little bit long i developed my own method which requires that the points be in a counter clockwise order and returns whether you are looking at the back or the front similar to the plane eqn method it uses few calculations however basically it is several comparisons the only disadvantage i see is that it must be done after the transformation from view coordinates to coordinates to display on the screen which means that a little more calculation isneeded beforehand my method basically figures out whether the points that will appear on the screen are clockwise or counterclockwise when looking at the back of something the points occur in an opposite direction from the front so merely by figuring out which way the points go you can tell whether you are looking at the back or front of a d polygon has anyone heard of this method before it is so simple i doubt i am the first to think of it libertarian atheist semi anarchal techno rat i define myself tsa cellar org
comp.graphics	reprints i have a few reprints left of chapters from my book visions of the future these include reprints of chapters probably of interest to readers of this forum including current techniques and development of computer art by franz szabo forging a career as a sculptor from a career as computer programmer by stewart dickson fractals and genetics in the future by h joel jeffrey i d be happy to send out free reprints to researchers for scholarly purposes until the reprints run out just send me your name and address thanks cliff cliff watson ibm com
comp.graphics	church related graphics i am looking for some good quality graphics files which are suitable for use in church related presentations i prefer vector but anything would be helpful if you know of bulletin boards which have collections of this nature or commercial products please inform me by email haston utkvx utk edu wayne haston
comp.graphics	pc fastest line circle drawing routines help hi all in short looking for very fast assembly code for line circle drawing on svga graphics complete i am thinking of a simple but fast molecular graphics program to write on pc or clones ball and stick type reasons programs that i ve seen are far too slow for this purpose platform class machine x or x vga graphics speed is important color for non rendering purpose is enough may stay at x for speed reason hope the code would be generic enough for different svga cards my own card is based on trident c not vesa what i m looking for fast very fast routines to draw lines circles simple shapes on above mentioned svga resolutions presumably in assembly languagine yes very fast please related codes to help rotating zooming animating the drawings on screen drawings for beginning would be lines circles mainly think of text else later you know the way molecular graphics rotates zooms a molecule and any other codes preferentially in c that can help the project final remarks non profit expected to become share free ware any help is appreciated thanks frankie lau tammy harvard edu ps pls also email i may miss reply post
comp.graphics	re rumours about do in article apr mercury unt edu sean mcmains mcmains unt edu writes in article apr rchland ibm com ricardo hernandez muchado ricardo rchland vnet ibm com writes and cd i s cpu doesn t help much either i understand it is a supposedly a variation of a running at something like mhz with this speed you truly need sprites wow a i d be very interested to get my hands on one of these especially considering the fact that motorola has not yet released the which is supposedly the next in the x lineup d sean the exists ricardo the animation playback to which lawrence was referring in an earlier post is plain old quicktime with the compact video codec i ve seen digitized video some of apple s early commercials to be precise running on a centris at about fps very nicely bit color depth i would expect that using the same algorithm a risc processor should be able to approach full screen full motion animation though as you ve implied the processor will be taxed more with highly dynamic material sean mcmains check out the gopher phone university of north texas new bands info server fax p o box at seanmac acs unt edu e mail denton tx mcmains unt edu sean i don t want to get into a mini war by what i am going to say but i have to be a little bit skeptic about the performance you are claiming on the centris you ll see why please no flames i reserve those for c s m a i was in chicago in the last consumer electronics show and apple had a booth there i walked by and they were showing real time video capture using a radious or supermac card to digitize and make right on the spot quicktime movies i think the quicktime they were using was the old one they digitized a guy talking there in x xx something it played back quite nicely and in real time the guy then expanded the window resized to x by xx in y i think and the frame rate decreased enough to notice that it wasn t fps or about fps anymore it dropped to like fps then he increased it just a bit more and it dropped to fps then i asked him what mac he was using he was using a quadra don t know what model to do it and he was telling the guys there that the quicktime could play back at the same speed even on an lcii well i spoiled his claim so to say since a quadra mac was having a little bit of trouble and this wasn t even from the hardisk this was from memory could it be that you saw either a newer version of quicktime or some hardware assisted centris or another software product running the animation like supposedly macromind s accelerator don t misunderstand me i just want to clarify this but for the sake of the posting about a computer doing it or not i can claim x a tad more with overscan being done in colors in my computer not from the hardisk at fps with scala mm but i agree if we consider mpeg stuff i think a multimedia consumer low priced box has a lot of market i just think do would make it no longer cd i raist new a owner in x in y in colors from a bit palette i love it new low fat sig don t e mail me i don t have a valid address nor can i send e mail
comp.graphics	oak driver needed d studio hi i m looking for the d studio driver for the oak card with m of ram this would be greatly and i mean that appreciated maybe i should have just gotten a more well know card thanks seth acpub duke edu
comp.graphics	manipulating a hexagonal grid ok lets say youve got a grid of hexagons that go in a etc for a total of rows down that means there are hexagons in the st line lined up underneath in the second line lined up underneath in the third line lined up under neath in the fourht the problem is given the center of any arbritrary hexagon and a line with and arbritrary slope which hexagons does that line cross through the line doesn t necessarily have to cross through the center of other hexagon it can even be a tangent and count any helpers my friend was baffeled when trying to figure this w mohammad r khan khan nova gmi edu after july please send mail to mkhan nyx cs du edu
comp.graphics	re gif to bmp scott zabolotzky saz hook corp mot com wrote i m not sure if this is the correct place to ask this question if not please forgive me and point me in the right direction does anybody know of a program that converts gif files to bmp files and if so where can i ftp it from any help would be greatly appreciated please respond via e mail as i do not read this group very often thanks scott sorry scott if you post it here you can read it here there is a shareware program available via anonymous ftp that will suit your needs you ll find it at oak oakland edu in the subdirectory pub msdos graphics the file is called grfwk t zip tmc tmc spartan ac brocku ca
comp.graphics	looking for a good book for beginners i wanted to know if any of you out there can recommend a good book about graphics still and animated and in vga svga thanks in advance mohammad r khan khan nova gmi edu after july please send mail to mkhan nyx cs du edu
comp.graphics	need some graphics help help i m trying to program my vga i ve got it working with in pascal with the following routines for mode h i ve got a vesa compatable trident c w meg and need to program in mode i don t care how many colors could someone take this code and help me write new procedures to replace them so that it ll work in or that d be great thanks here is the code i currently have for mode procedure graphmode begin videomode asm mov ah mov al h int h end end videomode procedure plotpoint x y c integer begin mem a x y c end david
comp.graphics	what is reverse or negative video i m interested in simulating reverse or negative color video mathematically what is the transform is it a simple reversal of the hue value in the hsv color space is it a manipulation in the yuv color space how is it related to solarization if you want to see something truly wild turn on the reverse video effect on a camcorder so equipped and point it at the monitor this creates a chaotic dynamical system whose phase space is continuous along rotation zoom focus etc very very surprising and lovely i d like to write a simulation of this effect without analog grunge thanks for any info you may have please e mail any info to me i ll post a summary thanks lance norskog thinman netcom com data is not information is not knowledge is not wisdom
comp.graphics	re need a good concave convex polygon algorithm in article c juyz aly murdoch acc virginia edu rws v uvacs cs virginia edu richard stoakley writes we need a good concave convex polygon conversion routine i ve tried a couple without much luck please e mail responses and i will post a summary of any replies thank you richard stoakley rws v uvacs cs virginia edu the problem is not precisely defined above but if you need to find the smallest convex polygon that encloses a given polygon then you are seeking the convex hull of your original polygon there are two ways to do this use a somewhat tricky but by now well examined linear time algorithm that exploits the polygon boundary or just feed the vertices of the original polygon to a convex hull routine and accept o n log n both methods are discussed in preparata and shamos for example
comp.graphics	re please recommend d graphics library for mac tsa cellar org the silent assassin writes rgc bcstec ca boeing com robert g carpenter writes can you please offer some recommendations it s really not that hard to do there are books out there which explain everything and the basic d functions translation rotation shading and hidden line removal are pretty easy i wrote a program in a few weeks witht he help of a book and would be happy to give you my source i think he wanted to avoid reinventing the wheel i would suggest that you take your code and submit it to comp sys mac binaries to be distributed including to the ftp sites many folks myself included would enjoy the extra code also quickdraw has a lot of d functions built in and think pascal can access them and i would expect that think c could as well if you can find out how to use the quickdraw graphics library it would be an excellent choice since it has a lot of stuff and is built into the mac so should be fast just to clarify the d routines that are mentioned in various places on the mac are in a libray not the rom of the mac a few years ago before i knew anything about implementing graphics i came across a demo of the apple grafsys d library and it actually did a lot however it is quite limited in the sense that it s a low level d library your code still has to plot individual points draw each line etc ad nauseum it has nothing on gl for example where you can handle objects other things to consider when talking about apple s old d grafsys library unsupported never was and no plans exist to do so in the future undocumented unless you call header files documentation if one knows something about graphics you could probably figure it out but i d assume there s better software available that gives better output and is at the same time programmatically nicer i e easier to program just my tax brent
comp.graphics	grayscale printer we are interested in purchasing a grayscale printer that offers a good resoltuion for grayscale medical images can anybody give me some recommendations on these products in the market in particular those under thank for the advice
comp.graphics	wingcommanderii graphics i was wondering if anyone knows where i can get more information about the graphics in the wingcommander series and the realspace system they use i think it s really awesome and wouldn t mind being able to use similar features in programs thanks in advance daemon
comp.graphics	vision d site and email unavailable i used the information provided in the recent resource listings and tried to ftp to ccu aukland ac nz ftp mac architec vision d facet and received an unknown host message mail to paul d bourke pdbourke ccu aukland ac nz bounces with basically the same problem where d he go rick rick pavek never ask a droid to outdo its program kuryakin bcstec ca boeing com seattle wa it wastes your time and annoys the droid
comp.graphics	apr computer graphics resource listing weekly part archive name graphics resources list part last modified computer graphics resource listing weekly posting part last change april plotting packages gnuplot it is one of the best and d plotting packages with online help it s a command line driven interactive function plotting utility for unix msdos amiga archimedes and vms platforms at least freely distributed it supports many terminals plotters and printers and is easily extensible to include new devices it was posted to comp sources misc in version plus patches you can practically find it everywhere use archie to find a site near you the comp graphics gnuplot newsgroup is devoted to discussion of gnuplot xvgr and xmgr ace gr xmgr is an xy plotting tool for unix workstations using x or openwindows there is an xview version called xvgr for suns collectively these tools are known as ace gr compiling xmgr requires the motif toolkit version and x r xmgr will not compile under x r motif x check at ftp ccalmr ogi edu in ccalmr pub acegr xmgr tar z motif version ccalmr pub acegr xvgr tar z xview version comments suggestions bug reports to paul j turner pturner amb ese ogi edu if mail fails try pturner ese ogi edu due to time constraints replies will be few and far between robot release d and limited d based on xview written in c fortran so you need a fortran compiler or the f c translator mainly tested on sun less on decstations check at ftp astro psu edu pub astrod vg plotting library this is a library of fortran callable routines at sunspot ceee nist gov xgobi it s being developed at bellcore and its speciality are multidimensional data sets analysis and exploration you can call it from the s language also and it works as an x client using the athena widget set or with an ascii terminal it s distributed free of charge from statlib at cmu to get it via e mail send email to statlib temper stat cmu edu and in the body area of the message put the line send xgobi from general if you want to pick it via ftp connect to lib stat cmu edu log in as statlib and use your e mail address as your password then type cd general mget xgobi warning it s about mb sources large postscript manual read the relevant readme to decide whether you need it or not pgplot runs on vax vms and supposedly on unix it s a set of fortran routines freely available though copyrighted and requiring a nominal fee of or so that includes contour plots and support for various devices including ps contact tjp deimos caltech edu ggraph host shorty cs wisc edu pub ggraph tar z unknown more details epigraph for pcs call dvj lab phys lgu spb su vladimir j dmitriev for details you can get the program demo or and play version if sent to budapest posta fiok hungary ph fax budapest ph multiplot xln for amigas shareware usd uk or aust advanced d package that has a big list of features contact dr alan baxter agb mbuc bio cam ac uk cambridge university department of pathology tennis court road cambridge cb qp uk athena plotter widget set this version v is based on gregory bond s version v beta added some stuff for scientific graphs i e log axes free scalable axes xy lineplots and some more and re added plotter callbacks from v e g to request the current pointer position or to cut off a rectangle from the plotting area for zooming in version v has a log of bugs fixed and a log of improvements against v beta additionally i did some other changes extensions besides origin and frame lines for axes subgrid lines on subtic positions line plots in different line types lines points lines points impulses lines impulses steps bars line styles solid dotted dashed dot dashed and marker types for data points legend at the right or left hand side of the plot optional drawing to a pixmap instead of a window layout callback for aligning axis positions when using multiple plotters in one application available at export lcs mit edu directory contrib plotter sciplot sciplot is a scientific d plotting and manipulation program for the next requires nextstep and it s shareware features ascii import and export eps export copy cut paste with data buffer free number of data points data buffer and document window selective open and save plotting in many styles automatic legend subviews linear and logarithmic axes two different axes text and graphic color support zoom normalizing and moving axis conversions free hand data manipulations cut edit move etc data editor sorting of data absolute relative and free defined error bars calculating with buffers background subtractions linear shirley tougaard bezier integration and relative integration fitting of one or more free defined functions linear regression calculations sin cos log etc function generator spline interpolation least square smooth and fft smooth differentiation fft esca calculations and database and something more you can find it on ftp cs tu berlin de pub next science sciplot tar z author michael wesemann scillerstr berlin germany mike fiasko rz berlin mpg de plplot plplot is a scientific plotting package for many systems small micro and large super alike despite its small size and quickness it has enough power to satisfy most users including standard x y plots semilog plots log log plots contour plots d plots mesh plots bar charts and pie charts multiple graphs of the same or different sizes may be placed on a single page with multiple lines in each graph different line styles widths and colors are supported a virtually infinite number of distinct area fill patterns may be used there are almost characters in the extended character set this includes four different fonts the greek alphabet and a host of mathematical musical and other symbols the fonts can be scaled to any size for various effects many different output device drivers are available system dependent including a portable metafile format and renderer freely available but copyrighted via anonymous ftp on hagar ph utexas edu directory pub plplot at present v plplot is known to work on the following systems unix sunos a ix hp ux unicos dg ux ultrix other platforms vms amiga exec ms dos os next authors many the main supporters are maurice lebrun mjl fusion ph utexas edu plplot kernel and the metafile xterm xwindow tektronix and amiga drivers geoff furnish furnish fusion ph utexas edu ms dos and os drivers tony richardson amr egr duke edu plplot on the next supermongo d plotting package at cmu filename re tmp sm tar z probably under the ftp cmu edu or andrew cmu edu machines gle gle is a high quality graphics package for scientists it runs on a variety of platforms pcs vaxes and unix with drivers for xwindows regis tek pc graphics cards vt s hp plotters postscript printers epson compatible printers and laserjet paintjet printers it provides latex quality fonts as well as full support for postscript fonts the graphing module provides full control over all features of graphs the graphics primitives include user defined subroutines for complex pictures and diagrams accompanying utilities include surface for hidden line surface plotting contour for contour plots manip for manipulation of columnar data files and fitls for fitting arbitrary equations to data mailing list glelist send a message to listserver tbone biol scarolina edu with a message boyd containing sub glelist your name maintainer dean pentcheff dean tbone biol scarolina edu image analysis software image processing and display pc and mac based tools multi platform software imdisp imdisp written at jpl and other nasa sites can do simple display enhancing smoothing and so on works with the fits and vicar pds data formats of nasa can read tiff images if you know their dimensions pc and macs labview labview is used as a framework for image processing tools it provides a graphical programming environment using block diagram sketch is the program with graphical elements representing the programming elements hundreds of functions are already available and are connected using a wiring tool to create the block diagram program functions that the block diagrams represent include digital signal processing and filtering numerical analysis statistics etc the tool allows any virtual instrument vi a software file that looks and acts like a real laboratory instrument to be used as a part of any other virtual instrument national instruments markets plug in digital signal processing dsp boards for macintoshs and pc compatables that allow real time acquisition and analysis at a personal computer new software tools for dsp are allowing engineers to harness the power of this technology the tools range from low level debugging software to high level block diagram development software there are three levels of dsp programming associated with the nb dsp board and labview use of the nb dsp analysis library ffts power spectra filters routines callable from think c and macintosh programers workshop mpw c that execute on the nb dsp board there is an analysis virtual interface library of ready to use vis optimized for the nb dsp use of the national instruments developers toolkit that includes an optimizing c compiler an assembler and a linker for low level programming of the dsp hardware this approach offers the highest level of performance but is the must difficult in terms of ease of use use of the national instruments interface kit software package which has utility functions for memory management data communications and downloading code to the nb dsp board this is the easiest route for the development of custom code ultimage concept vi concept vi by graftek france is a family of image processing virtual instruments vis that give labview described above users high end tools for designing integrating and monitoring imaging control systems a vi is a software file that looks and acts like a real laboratory instrument typical applications for concept vi include thermography surveillance machine vision production testing biomedical imaging electronic microscopy and remote sensing ultimage concept vi addresses applications which require further qualitative and quantitative analysis it includes a complete set of functions for image enhancement histogram equalization spatial and frequency filtering isolation of features thresholding mathematical morphology analysis density measurement object counting sizing and characterization the program loads images with a minimum resolution of by a pixel depth of or bits and one image plane standard input and output formats include pict tiff satie and aipd other formats can be imported image enhancement features include lookup table transformations spatial linear and non linear filters frequency filtering arithmetic and logic operations and geometric transformations among others morphological transformations include erosion dilation opening closing hole removal object separation and extraction of skeletons among others quantitative analysis provides for objects detection measurement and morphological distribution measures include area perimeter center of gravity moment of inertia orientation length of relevant chords and shape factors and equivalence measures are saved in ascii format the program also provides for macro scripting and integration of custom modules a d view command plots a perspective data graph where image intensity is depicted as mountains or valleys in the plot the histogram tool can be plotted with either a linear or logarithmic scale the twenty eight arithmetic and logical operations provide for masking and averaging sections of images noise removal making comparisons etc there are spatial filters that alter pixel intensities based on local intensity these include high pass filters for contrast and outlines the frequency data resulting from fft analysis can be displayed as either the real imaginary components or the phase magnitude data the morphological transformations are useful for data sharpening and defining objects or for removing artifacts the transformations include thresholding eroding dilating and even hole filling the program s quantitative analysis measurements include area perimeter center of mass object counts and angle between points gtfs inc bennett valley road c santa rosa ca iplab spectrum iplab spectrum supports image processing and analysis but lacks the morphology and quantitative analysis features provided by graftek franceus ultimage concept vi using scripting tools the user tells the system the operations to be performed the problem is that far too many basic operations require manual intervention the tool supports ffts arithmetic operations for pixel alteration and a movie command for cycling through windows macintosh based tools ncsa image ncsa paledit and more ncsa provides a whole suite of public domain visualization tools for the macintosh primarily aimed at researchers wanting to visualize results from numerical modelling calculations these applications documentation and source code are available for anonymous ftp from ftp ncsa uiuc edu commercial versions of the ncsa programs have been developed by spyglass spyglass inc devonshire drive champaign il fax nih image available at alw nih gov or preferably zippy nimh nih gov directory pub image it has painting and image manipulation tools a macro language tools for measuring areas distances and angles and for counting things using a frame grabber card it can record sequences of images to be played back as a movie it can invoke user defined convolution matrix filters such as gaussian it can import raw data in tab delimited ascii or as or byte quantities it also does histograms and even d plots it is limited to bits pixel though the bits map into a color lookup table it runs on any mac that has a color screen and a fpu or get the nonfpu version from zippy nimh nih gov photomac data translation inc locke dr marlboro ma photopress blue solutions marigold place thousand oaks ca pixeltools and tcl image complete family of pixeltools hardware accelerator and applications software for scientific image processing and analysis video rate capture display processing and analysis of high resolution monochromatic and color images includes c source code tcl image software package for scientific quantitative image processing and analysis it provides a complete language for the capture enhancement and extraction of quantitative information from gray scale images tcl image has over functions for image processing and contains the other elements needed in a full programming language for algorithm development variables and control structures it is easily extensible through script or indirect command files these script files are simply text files that contain tcl image commands they are executed as normal commands and include the ability to pass parameters the direct capture of video images is supported via popular frame grabber boards tcl image comes with the i view utility that provides conversion between common image file types such as pict and tiff perceptics pellissippi parkway knoxville tn satellite image workshop it comes with a number of satellite pictures raw data and does all sorts of image enhancing on it you ll need at least a mac ii with co processor a color display and a large harddisk the program doesn t run under system x ate v in the documentation the contact address is given as liz smith jet propulsion laboratory ms oak grove dr pasadena ca visualization workbench an electronic imaging software system that performs interactive image analysis and scientific d and d plotting paragon imagine lincoln st lowell ma adobe photoshop the tool supports rtrue colors with bit images or levels of grey scale once an image has been imported it can be rre toucheds with various editing tools typical of those used in macintosh based rpaints applications these include an eraser pencil brush and air brush advanced rpastes tools that control the interaction between a pasted selection and the receiving site have also been incorporated for example all red pixels in a selection can easily be preventing from being pasted photoshop has transparencies ranging from to allowing you to create ghost overlays rphoto editings tools include control of the brightness and contrast color balancing hue saturation modification and spectrum equalization images can be subjected to various signal processing algorithms to smooth or sharpen the image blur edges or locate edges image scaling is also supported for storage savings the images can be compressed using standard algorithms including externally supplied compression such as jpeg availlable from storm technologies the latest version of adobe photoshop supports the import of numerous image formats including epsf epsf tiff pict resource amiga iff ilbm compuserve gif macpaint pixar pixelpaint scitex ct tga and thunderscan adobe systems inc charlestown road po box mountain view ca colorstudio and imagestudio colorstudio is an image editing and paint package from letraset that has more features than adobe photoshop but is decidedly more complex and therefore more difficult to use several steps are often required to accomplish that which can be done in a single step using photoshop the application requires a great deal of available disk space as one can easily end up with images in the mb range the program provides a variety of powerful selection tools including the auto selection tool which lets the user choose image areas on the basis of color close hues color range and mask imagestudio don t know letraset usa eisenhower drive paramus nj dapple systems high resolution image analysis software provides processing tools to work with multiple images enhance and edit and measure a variety of global or feature parameters and interpret the data dapple systems w olive ave sunnyvale ca digital darkroom the latest release of digital darkroom has five new selection and editing tools for enhancing images one such feature allows the user to select part of an image simply by painting it a new polyline selection tool creates a selection tool for single pixel wide selections a brush lets the operator paint with a selected portion of the image note that this is not a true color image enhancement tool this tool should be used when the user intends to operate in grey scale images only it should be noted that digital darkroom is not as powerful as either adobe photoshop or colorstudio silicon beach software carroll ctr rd suite j san diego ca dimple it is compatible with system and system requires mac lc or ii series with colours with a recommended min of mb of ram it has the capability of reading erdas files functions include image enhancement d and contour plots image statistics supervised and unsupervised classification pca and other image transformations there is also a means image operation language or iol by which you can write your own transformations there is no image rectification however dimple is compatable with mapii the latest version is and it is in the beta stage of testing dimple was initially developed as a teaching tool and it is very good for this purpose dimple runs on a colour macintosh it is a product still in its development phase i e it doesn t have all the inbuilt features of other packages but is coming along nicely it has its own inbuilt language for writing programs for processing an image defining convolution filters etc dimple is a full mac application with pull down menus etc it is unprotected software process software solutions po box wollongong new south wales australia phone fax enhance enhance has a rrulers tool that supports measurements and additionally provides angle data the tool has over mathematical filter variations laplacian medium noise filter etc files can be saved as either tiff pict epsf or text however epsf files can t be imported microfrontier hickman road des moines ia image analyst an image processing product for users who need to extract quantitative data from video images image analyst lets users configure sophisticated image processing and measurement routines without the necessity of knowing a programming language it is designed for such tasks at computing number and size of cells in images projected by video cameras attached to microscopes or enhancing and measuring distances in radiographs image analyst provides users with an array of field proven video analysis techniques that enable them to easily assemble a sequence of instructions to enhance feature appearance count objects determine density shape size position or movement perform object feature extraction and conduct textural analysis automatically image analyst works with either a framegrabber board and any standard video camera or a disk stored image within minutes without the need for programming the image analyst user can set up a process to identify and analyze any element of a image measurements and statistics can be automatically or semi automatically generated from tiff or pict files or from captured video tape images image analyst recognizes items in images based on their size shape and position the tool provides direct support for the data translation and scion frame grabbers a menu command allows for image capture from a vcr video camera or other ntsc or pal devices there are types of files the image itself and the related sequence file that holds the processing measurements and analysis that the user defines automated sequences are set up in regions of interest roi represented by movable sizable boxes atop the image inside a roi the program can find the distance between two edges the area of a shape the thickness of a wall etc image analyst finds the center edge and other positions automatically the application also provides tools so that the user can work interactively to find the edge of object it also supports histograms and a color look up table clut tool automatix inc middlesex turnpike billerica ma iplab signal analytics corp maple ave e vienna va fax menu driven image processing software that supports bit color or pseudocolor grayscale image display and manipulation map ii among the mac gis systems map ii distributed by john wiley has integrated image analysis image from stanford try anonymous ftp from sumex aim stanford edu it has pd source for image v and ready to run code for a mac under image v windows dos pc based tools ccd richard berry s ccd imaging book for willamon bell contains optional disks with image manipulating software source code is included erdas erdas will do all of the things you want rectification classification transformations canned user defined overlays filters contrast enhancement etc i was using it on my thesis then changed the topic a bit that work became secondary erdas inc buford highway suite atlanta ga fax rsvga i have been getting up to speed on a program called rsvga available from eidetic digital image ltd in british columbia its for ibm pc s or clones cheap about and does all the stuff erdas does but is not as fast or as powerful though i have had only limited experience with erdas i have used rsvga with of landsat bands and it is a good starter program except for the obtuse manual imagine it s a bit package i suppose for pcs called imagine or image the program does a modest amount of image processing add subtract multiply divide display and plot an x or y cut across the image it can also display a number of images simultaneously the company is compuscope in santa barbara ca pc vista it was announced in the august edition of pasp it is known to be available from mike richmond whose email addresses have been richmond bllac berkeley edu richmond bkyast berkeley edu and his s mail address is michael richmond astronomy department campbell hall berkeley ca the latest version of pc vista version includes not only the source code and help files but also a complete set of executable programs and a number of sample fits images if you do wish to use the source code you will need microsoft c version or later other compilers may work but will require substantial modifications to receive the documentation and nine double density k floppies or three quad density inch floppies m with everything on them just send a request for pc vista together with your name and a us mail address to office of technology licensing shattuck ave suite berkeley ca include a check traveller s checks are fine or purchase order for in u s dollars if your address is inside the continental u s or otherwise made out to regents of the university of california to cover duplication and mailing costs software tools it s a set of software tools put out by canyon state systems and software they are not free but rather cheap at about i heard it will handle most all of the formats used by frame grabber software mirage it s image processing software written by jim gunn at the astrophysics dept at princeton it will run on a pc among other platforms it is a forth based system i e a forth language with many image processing displaying functions built in data translation source book the data translation company in massachusetts publishes a free book containing vendors of data analysis hardware and software which is compatible with data translation and other frame grabbers surely you can find much more pc related stuff in it maxen a couple of canadians have written a program named maxen which does maximum entropy image deconvolution their company is named digital signal processing software or something like that and the software is mentioned in an article in astronomy magazine either jan or feb an article on ccd s vs film jandel scientific java another software package java is put out by jandel scientific jandel scientific koch road corte madera ca microbrian runs on an ms dos platform and uses a bit graphics card vista or an about to be released version will support a number of super vga cards its a full blown remote sensed data processing system it is menu driven character based screen but is does not use a windowed user interface its is hardware protected with a dongle mbrian micro barrier reef image anaysis system it was developed by csiro commonwealth scientific industrial organization and is marketed supported by mpa australia lusher road croydon victoria tel fax there are educational and commercial prices but be prepared to set aside a k for the first educational licence subsequent ones come cheaper they need to it has installed sites worldwide it is widely used at anu microimage the remote sensing lab here at dartmouth currently uses terra mar s microimage on pcs with some fancy display hardware terra mar resource information services inc landings drive mountain view ca fax unix based tools iraf image reduction and analysis facility developed in the national optical astronomy observatory kitt peak az it is free you can ftp it from tucana noao edu and complement it with stsdas from stsci edu email to iraf noao edu for more details apparently this is one of the de facto standards in the astronomical image community they issue a newsletter also they seem to support very well their users works with vms also last i heard and practically has its own shell on top of the vms unix shells it s suggested that you get a copy of saoimage for display under x windows very flexible extendable tons literally linear feet of documentation for the general user skilled user and programmer alv a sun specific image toolkit version posted to comp sources sun on dec also available via email to alv users request cs bris ac uk aips astronomical image processing system contact aipsmail nrao edu also see the usenet newsgroups alt sci astro aips and sci astro fits built by nrao national radio astronomy observatory hq in charlottesville va sites in nm az wv software distributed by track exabyte dat or non anonymous internet ftp documentation postscript mostly available via anonymous ftp to baboon cv nrao edu directory pub aips and pub aips text publ installation requires building the system and thus a fortran and c compiler this package can read and write fits data see sci astro fits and is primarily for reduction analysis and image enhancement of radio astronomy data from radio telescopes particularly the very large array vla a synthesis instrument it consists of almost programs that do everything from copying data to sophisticated deconvolution e g via maximum entropy there is an x based image tool xas and a tek compatible xterm based graphics tool built into aips the xas tool is modelled after the hardware functionality of the international imaging systems model display unit and can do image arithmetic etc the code is mostly fortran with some system c language modules and is available for suns ibm rs dec ultrix convex cray unicos and alliant with support planned for hp xx solaris and maybe sgi there is currently a project aips underway to rewrite the algorithmic functionality of aips in a modern setting using c and an object oriented approach whereas aips is proprietary code licensed for free to non profit institutions owner by nrao and the nsf aips will be in the public domain at some level as it is an international effort with contributions from the us canada england the netherlands india and australia to name a few laboimage version is out for x it s written in c and currently runs on sun xxx sun xxx os and under sunview the expert system for image segmentation is written in allegro common lisp it was used on the following domains computer science image analysis medicine biology physics it is distributed free of charge source code available via anonymous ftp at ftp ads com in pub vision list archive shareware laboimage contact prof thierry pun computer vision group computing science center u geneva rue du lac ch geneva switzerland phone fax e mail pun cui unige ch or pun cgeuge bitnet figaro it was originally made for vms and can be obtained from keith shortridge in australia ks aaoepp aao gov au and for unix from sam southard at caltech sns deimos caltech edu it s about mbytes on a sun khoros moved to the scientific visualization category below vista the real thing is available via anonymous ftp from lowell edu email to vista lowell edu for more details total size less than mbytes disimp device independent software for image processing is a powerful system providing both user friendliness and high functionality in interactive times feature description disimp incorporates a rich library of image processing utilities and spatial data options all functions can be easily accessed via the disimp executive this menu is modular in design and groups image processes by their function such a logical structure means that complicated processes are simply a progression through a series of modules processes include image rectification classification unsupervised and supervised intensity transformations three dimensional display and principal component analysis disimp also supports the more simple and effective enhancement techniques of filtering band subtraction and ratioing host configuration requirements running on unix workstations disimp is capable of processing the more computational intensive techniques in interactive processing times disimp is available in both runtime and programmer s environments using the programmers environment utilities can be developed for specific applications programs graphics are governed by an icon based display panel which allows quick enhancments of a displayed image manipulations of look up tables colour stretches changes to histograms zooming and panning can be interactively driven through this control a range of geographic projections enables disimp to integrate data of image graphic and textual types images can be rectified by a number of coordinate systems providing the true geographic knowledge essential for ground truthing overlays of grids text and vector data can be added to further enhance referenced imagery the system is a flexible package allowing users of various skill levels to determine their own working environment including the amount of help required disimp comes fully configured with no optional extras the purchase price includes all functionality required for professional processing of remote sensed data for further information please contact the business manager clough engineering group systems division chapel street south yarra australia telephone fax global imaging software we use global imaging software to process avhrr data from the dish to the final display select a chunk of five band data from a pass automatic navigation calibrate it to albedo and temp convert that to byte register it to predesigned window all relatively automatically and carefree it has no classification routines to speak of but it isn t that difficult to write your own with their programmer s module very small operation one designs one codes one sells been around for a number of years sold to weather service and navy runs on hp with hp ux supports bit display hips human information processing laboratory s image processing system michael landy co wrote and sell a general purpose package for image processing which has been used for basically all the usual image processing applications robotics medical satellite engineering oil exploration etc it is called hips and deals with sequences of multiband images in the same way it deals with single images it has been growing since we first wrote it both by additions from us as well as a huge user contributed library feature description hips is a set of image processing modules which together provide a powerful suite of tools for those interested in research system development and teaching it handles sequences of images movies in precisely the same manner as single frames programs and subroutines have been developed for simple image transformations filtering convolution fourier and other transform processing edge detection and line drawing manipulation digital image compression and transmission methods noise generation and image statistics computation over such image transformation programs have been developed as a result almost any image processing task can be performed quickly and conveniently additionally hips allows users to easily integrate their own custom routines new users become effective using hips on their first day hips features images that are self documenting each image stored in the system contains a history of the transformations that have been applied to that image hips includes a small set of subroutines which primarily deals with a standardized image sequence header and a large library of image transformation tools in the form of unix filters it comes complete with source code on line manual pages and on line documentation host configuration requirements originally developed at new york university hips now represents one of the most extensive and flexible vision and image processing environments currently available it runs under the unix operating system it is modular and flexible provides automatic documentation of its actions and is almost entirely independent of special equipment hips is now in use on a variety of computers including vax and microvax sun apollo masscomp ncr tower iris ibm at etc for image display and input drivers are supplied for the grinnell and adage ikonas image processors and the sun sun sun and sun i consoles we also supply user contributed drivers for a number of other framestores and windowing packages sun gfx sun console matrox vip iti ip lexidata macintosh ii x windowing system and iris the hipsaddon package includes an interface for the crs it is a simple matter to interface hips with other frame stores and we can put interested users in touch with users who have interfaced hips with the arlunya and datacube max video hips can be easily adapted for other image display devices because of hips is machine independent availability hips has proven itself a highly flexible system both as an interactive research tool and for more production oriented tasks it is both easy to use and quickly adapted and extended to new uses hips is supplied on magnetic tape in unix tar format either reel to reel or sun cartridge and comes with source code libraries a library of convolu tion masks and on line documentation and manual pages michael landy sharpimage software p o box prince street station new york ny voice fax msl cns nyu edu mira please don t confuse that with the thalmanns animation system from montreal these are altogether different beasts nfotis mira stands for microcomputer image reduction and analysis mira gives workstation level performance on dos computers using svga cards in color modes up to x mira contains a very handsome functional gui which is mouse and keystroke operated mira reads writes tiff and fits formats native formats of a number of ccd cameras and uncompressed binary images in byte short integer and byte real pixel format in or dimensions the result of an image processing operation can be short integer or real pixels or the same as that of the input image mira does the operation using short or floating point arithmetic to maintain the precision and accuracy of the pixel format over functions are hand coded in assembly language for maximum speed on the intel hardware the entire graphical interface is also written in assembly language to maximize the speed of windowing operations windows for d image and d image data display and analysis have dedicated cursors which read position and value value in real time as you move the mouse there are also smooth real time contrast and brightness stretch and panning of a magnified portion of the displayed image s all operated by the mouse a wide selection of grayscale pseudocolor and random palettes is provided and other palettes can be generated supported functions include such niceties as the following o image image interpolation o image constant o unary operations abs value polynomial of pixel value chs x log byteswap clip values at upper lower limits short real or real short o combine images by mean median mode or sum of pixel values with or without autoscaling to mean median or mode of an image section o convolutions filters laplacian sobel edge operator directional gradient line gaussian elliptical and rectangular equal weight filters unsharp masking median filters user defined filter kernel ellipse rectangle line gradient gaussian and user defined filters can be rotated to any specified angle o ccd data reduction flat fielding dark subtraction column over underscan bias removal remove bad pixels and column defects normalize to region target mean median or modal value o create subimage mosaic m x n d or d images to get larger image collapse d image into d image o plot d section or collapsed section of d image plot histogram of region of an image o review change image information header data rename keywords plot keyword values for a set of images o luminance photometry elliptical or circular aperture photometry brightness profile isophotal photometry between set of upper lower luminances area and luminance inside traced polygon interactive background fitting and removal from part or all of image fit elliptical aperture shape to image isophotes o interactive with d image contrast brightness x y or diagonal plot of pixel values distance between two points compute region stats centroid pan to x y location or image center zoom to times change cursor to rectangle crosshair full image crosshair or off and adjust cursor size on image select linear log or gamma transfer function or histogram equalization o interactive or specified image offset computation and re sampling for registration o interactive with d image zoom in x y or both in steps of or times current re center plot or enlarge a framed area plot buffers can be cycled through interactive data analysis polynomial fitting point deletion undelete change value point weighting linear and quadratic loess and binomial smoothing revert to unit point weights or original data buffer substitute results into data buffer for pass back to calling function dump data buffer overlays and error bars to file or printer change to user specified coordinate system o tricolor image combination and display hardcopy halftone printout to hp pcl compatible printers laserjet deskjet etc o documentation is over pages in custom vinyl binder cost usd copy available from axiom research inc box tucson az phone fax international marketing rep saguaro scientific corporation tucson arizona end of part of the resource listing nick nikolaos fotis national technical univ of athens greece home esperidon st internet nfotis theseas ntua gr halandri gr uucp mcsun ariadne theseas nfotis athens greece fax
comp.graphics	apr computer graphics resource listing weekly part archive name graphics resources list part last modified computer graphics resource listing weekly posting part last change april scene generators geographical data maps data files dems digital elevation models dems digital elevation models as well as other cartographic data huge is available from spectrum xerox com pub map contact lee moore webster research center xerox corp voice arpa internet moore wbst xerox com check also on ncgia ucsb edu pub dems nfotis many of these files are also available on cd rom selled by usgs scale digital line graph dlg data contains datas for all states price is about call to or visit in offices in menlo park in reston virginia usa maps the data user services division of the bureau of the census also has data on cd rom tso standard format that is derived from usgs map data call for more info or they have a bbs at from dr dobbs march the u s defense mapping agency in cooperation with their counterpart agencies in canada the u k and australia have released the digital chart of the world dcw this chart consists of over gigabytes of reasonable quality vector data distributed on four cd roms includes coastlines rivers roads railrays airports cities towns spot elevations and depths and over place names it is iso compatible and only available from u s geological survey p o box denver federal center denver co digital distribution services energy mines and resources canada booth street ottawa on k a e canada director general of military survey survey elmwood avenue feltham middlesex tw ah united kingdom director of survey australian army department of defense campbell park offices cp campbell act australia fractal landscape generators public domain many people have written fractal landscape generators for example for the mac some of these generators were written by pdbourke ccu aukuni ac nz paul d bourke many of the programs are available from the ftp sites and mail archive servers check with archie commercial vista pro for the amiga from virtual reality labs list price is about their address is vrl ganador court san luis obispo ca telephone or fax scenery animator also for the amiga is of the same caliber with vista pro check with natural graphics p o box raklin ca phone don t forget to ask about companion programs and data disks tapes vista pro has been ported to the pcs cia world map ii note this database is quite out of date and not topologically structured if you need a standard for world cartographic data wait for the digital chart of the world this m database has been produced from the defense mapping agency s oncs and will be available together with searching and viewing software on a number of cd roms later this summer check into hanauma stanford edu and ucsd edu see ftp list above the cia database consists of coastlines rivers and political boundaries in the form of line strokes also on hanauma stanford edu is a x array of elevation data containing one ieee floating point number for every half degree longitude and latitude a program for decoding the database mfil can be found on the machine pi arc umn edu there s another program which reads a compressed cia data bank file and builds a phigs hierachical structure it uses a phigs extension known as polyline sets for performance but you can use regular polylines ask joe stewart joes lpi liant com the raw data at stanford require the vplot package to be able to view it was posted in comp sources unix to be more exact you ll have to compile just the libvplot routines not the whole package ncar data ncar national center for atmospheric research has many types of terrain data ranging from elevation datasets at various resolutions to information about soil types vegetation etc this data is not free they charge from to or more depending on the data volume and media exabyte tape cartridge track tape ibm pc floppy and ftp transfer are all available their data archive is mostly research oriented not hobbyist oriented for more information email to ilana ncar ucar edu unc data tapes with voxel data there are public domain tapes with data for the comparison and testing of various volume rendering algorithms mainly mri and ct scans these tapes are distributed by the softlab of unc chapel hill softlab cs unc edu the data sets volume i and ii are also available via anonymous ftp from omicron cs unc edu in pub softlab chvrtd nasa many us agencies such as nasa publish cd roms with many altimetry data from various space missions eg viking for mars magellan for venus etc especially for nasa i would suggest to call the following address for more info national space science date center goddard space flight center greenbelt maryland telephone email address request nssdca gsfc nasa gov the data catalog not the data itself is available online internet users can telnet to nssdca gsfc nasa gov and log in as nodis no password you can also dial in at or baud bits no parity one stop at the enter number prompt enter md and carriage return when the system responds call complete enter a few more carriage returns to get the username and log in as nodis no password nssdca is also an anonymous ftp site but no comprehensive list of what s there is available at present earth sciences data there s a listing of anonymous ftp sites for earth science data including imagery this listing is called earth sciences resources on internet and you can get it via anonymous ftp from csn org in the directory cogs under the name internet resources earth sci some sites include aurelie soest hawaii edu pub avhrr images avhrr images ames arc nasa gov pub space cdrom images from magellan and viking missions etc pub space index contains a listing of files available in the whole archive the index is about k by itself there s also an e mail server for the people without internet access send a letter to archive server ames arc nasa gov or ames archive server in the subject of your letter or in the body use commands like send space index send space shuttle ss capitalization is important only text files are handled by the email server at present vab larc nasa gov pub gifs misc landsat landsat photos in gif and jpeg format it was shut down nfotis anyone has a copy of this archive others daily values of river discharge streamflow and daily weather data is available from earthinfo central ave boulder co these disks are expensive around but there are quantity discounts check vmd cso uiuc edu the wx directory carries data regarding surface analysis weather radar and sat view pics in gif format updated hourly pioneer unm edu is the space and planetary image facility located on the university of new mexico campus ftp server it provides anonymous ftp access to cd roms with data images a disk with earthquake data topography gravity geopolitical info is available from ngdc national geophysical data center broadway boulder co eosat at least in the us now sells landsat mss data older than two years old for per scene and they have been talking about a similar deal for landsat tm data the mss data are bands meter resolution check out anonymous ftp to ftp ncsa uiuc edu in unix polyview alpha shape for a tool that creates convex hulls alpha shapes a generalization of the convex hull from d point sets the grips ii gov raster image processing software cd rom is available from cd rom inc at for code for viewing adrg arc digitised raster graphics files is available on the grips ii cd rom the u s army engineer topographic labs juan perez code is also available via ftp adrg zip archive in spectrum xerox com nrcc range data rioux m cournoyer l the nrcc three dimensional image data files tech report cnrc national research council canada ottawa canada from what i understand these data are from a laser range finder and you can a copy for research purposes d scanners digitized d data a cyberware labs monterey ca manufactures a d color laser digitizer which can be used to model parts of or a complete human body they run a service bureau also so they can digitize models for you address cyberware labs inc harris ct suite d monterey ca phone fax b polhemus makes a d input device actually a couple of models that senses position d and orientation d based on electromagnetic field interference this equipment is also incorporated in the vpl dataglove this hardware is also called isotrack from keiser aerospace ascension technology makes a similar d input device there is a company applied sciences that makes a d input device position only based on speed of sound triangulation c a company that specializes in digitizing is viewpoint you can ask for viewpoint s free page catalog full of ready to ship datasets from categories such as cars anatomy aircraft sports boats trains animals and others though these objects are quite expensive the cataloge is nevertheless of interest for it has pictures of all the available objects in wireframe polygon mesh contact viewpoint west center orem utah ph fax dataset some addresses for companies that make digitizers ascension technology bird flock of birds big bird d trackers p o box burlington vt phone fax polhemus incorporated digitizer d trackers p o box hercules dr colchester vt tel logitech inc red baron ultrasonic d mouse kaiser dr freemont ca tel w shooting star technology mechanical headtracker holdom ave burnaby b c canada v b w tel fax spaceball technologies inc spaceball d stationary input device suffolk street lowell ma tel fax tel in mountain view transfinite systems gold brick powerglove for macintosh p o box n mit branch post office cambridge ma tel email d applelink apple com vpl research inc eyephone head mounted display dataglove glove hand input device vpl research inc tower lane th floor foster city ca tel fax simgraphics engineering flying mouse d input device huntington rd suite a south pasadena ca background imagery textures datafiles first check in the ftp places that are mentioned in the faq or in the ftp list above bit scanning get a good bit scanner like epson s suggested is an scsi port for speed eric haines had a suggestion in rt news volume scan textures for wallpapers and floor coverings etc from doll house supplies so you have a rather cheap way to scan patterns that don t have scaling troubles associated with real materials and scanning area books with textures find some houses books magazines that carry photographic material educorp sells cd roms with various imagery also a wide variety of stock art is available stock art from big name stock art houses such as comstock uniphoto and metro image base is available in italy there s a company called belvedere that makes such books for the purpose of clipping their pages for inclusion in your graphics work their address is edition belvedere co ltd rome italy piazzale flaminio tel fax texture libraries a mannikin sceptre graphics announced textiles a set of x bit textures initial shipments in bit iff for amigas soon in bit tiff format algorithmically built for tiled surfaces srp is volume each volume images disks demo disks for are available contact mannikin sceptre graphics indiana ave winter park fl phone fax b essence is a library of sixty five new algoritmic textures for imagine by impulse inc these textures are fully compatible with the floating point versions of imagine imagine and even turbo silver written by steve worley for more info contact essence info apex software publishing el camino real suite menlo park ca usa what about texture city introduction to rendering algorithms a ray tracing i assume you have a general understanding of computer graphics no then read some of the books that the faq contains for ray tracing i would suggest an introduction to ray tracing andrew glassner ed academic press isbn note that i have not read the book but i feel that you can t be wrong using his book an errata list was posted in comp graphics by eric haines erich eye com there s a more concise reference also roman kuchkuda unc chapel hill an introduction to ray tracing in theoretical foundations for computer graphics and cad ed r a e earnshaw nato as vol f pp printed by springer verlag it contains code for a small but fundamentally complete ray tracer b z buffer depth buffer a good reference is procedural elements for computer graphics david f rogers mcgraw hill new york pages and c others more info is needed nfotis where can i find the geometric data for the a teapot displays on display column of ieee cg a jan has the whole story about origin of the martin newell s teapot the article also has the bezier patch model and a pascal program to display the wireframe model of the teapot ieee cg a sep in jim blinn s column jim blinn s corner describes an another way to model the teapot bezier curves with rotations for example are used the off and spd packages have these objects so you re advised to get them to avoid typing the data yourself the off data is triangles at a specific resolution around x x triangles meshing per patch the spd package provides the spline patch descriptions and performs a tessellation at any specified resolution b space shuttle tolis lerios tolis nova stanford edu has built a list of space shuttle datafiles here s a summary from his sci space list model a modified version of the newsgroup model model vertices useful i e referred to in the polygon descriptions polygons vertex vertex vertex vertex payload doors non existent units unknown simon marshall s marshall sequent cc hull ac uk has a copy he said there is no proprietary information associated with it model the newsgroup model in off format you can find it in gondwana ecr mu oz au file pub off objects shuttle geo hanauma stanford edu pub graphics comp graphics objects shuttle data model the triangles model this model is stored in several files each defining portions of the model greg henderson henders infonode ingr com has a copy he did not mention any restriction on the model s distribution model the nasa model the file starts off with a header line containing three real numbers defining the offsets used by lockheed in their simulations x offset y offset z offset from then on the file consists of a sequence of polygon descriptions vertices polygons vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex payload doors closed units inches jon berndt jon l h jsc nasa gov seems to be responsible for the model proprietary info unknown model the old shuttle model the file consists of a sequence of polygon descriptions vertices polygons vertex vertex payload doors open units meters we have been using this model at star labs stanford university for some years now contact me tolis nova stanford edu or my supervisor scott williams scott star stanford edu if you want a copy image annotation software a touchup runs in sunview and is pretty good it reads in rasterfiles but even if your image isn t normally stored in rasterfile format you could use screendump to make it a rasterfile b idraw part of stanford s interviews distribution can handle some image formats in addition to being a macdraw like tool i m not sure exactly what they are you can ftp the idraw s binary from interviews stanford edu c tgif is another macdraw like tool that can handle x bitmap xbm and x pixmap xpm formats if the image you have is in formats other than xbm or xpm you can get the pbmplus toolkit to convert things like gif or even some macintosh formats to xpm tgif s sources are available in the pub directory on cs ucla edu version of tgif at patchlevel plus patch and patch d use the editimage facility of khoros see below this is just one utility in the overall system you can essentially do all your image processing and macdraw type graphics using this package e you might be able to get by with pbmplus pbmtext gives you text output bitmaps which can be overlaid on top of your image f ice requires sun hardware running openwindows it s a postscript based graphical editor and it s available for anonymous ftp from internet host eo soest hawaii edu requires sun c and two other locally developed packages the lxt library an xlib based toolkit and a small c class library all files pub ice tar z pub lxt tar z and pub ldgoc tar z are available in compressed tar format pub ice tar z contains a readme that gives installation instructions as well as an extensive man page ice a statically linked compressed executable pub ice sun z for sparc systems is also available for ftp all software is the property of columbia university and may not be redistributed without permission ice means image composition environment and it s an imaging tool that allows raster images to be combined with a wide variety of postscript annotations in wysiwyg fashion via x imaging routines and news postscript rasterizing g use imagemagick to annotate an image from your x server pick the position of your text with the cursor and choose your font and pen color from a pull down menu imagemagick can read and write many of the more popular image formats imagemagick is available as export lcs mit edu contrib imagemagick tar z or at your nearest x archive scientific visualization stuff x data slice xds bundled with the x distribution from mit in the contrib directory available at ftp ncsa uiuc edu either as a source or binaries for various platforms national center for supercomputing applications ncsa tool suite platforms unix workstations dec ibm sgi sun apple macintosh cray supercomputers availability now available source code in the public domain ftp from ftp ncsa uiuc edu contact national center for supercomputing applications computing applications building e springfield ave champaign il cost free zero dollars the suite includes tools for d image and d scene analysis and visualization the code is actively maintained and updated spyglass they sell commercial versions of the ncsa tools examples are spyglass dicer d volumetric data analysis package platform mac spyglass transform d data analysis package platforms mac sgi sun dec hp ibm contact spyglass inc p o box champaign il khoros patch available via anonymous ftp at pprg eece unm edu cd to pub khoros to see what is available it is huge mb but good needs unix and x r freely copied not pd complete with sources and docs very extensive and at its heart is visual programming khoros components include a visual programming language code generators for extending the visual language and adding new application packages to the system an interactive user interface editor an interactive image display package an extensive library of image and signal processing routines and d d plotting packages see comp soft sys khoros on usenet and the relative faq for more info contact the khoros group room eece dept university of new mexico albuquerque nm email khoros request chama eece unm edu macphase analysis visualization application for the macintosh operates on d and d data arrays import export several different file formats several different plotting options such as gray scale color raster d wire frame d surface contour vector line and combinations ffts filtering and other math functions color look up editor array calculator etc shareware available via anonymous ftp from sumex aim stanford edu in the info mac app directory for other information contact doug norton e mail compuserve com iris explorer it s an application creation system developed by silicon graphics that provides visualisation and analysis functionality for computational scientists engineers and other scientists the explorer gui allows users to build custom applications without having to write any or a minimal amount of traditonal code also existing code can be easily integrated into the explorer environment explorer currently is available now on sgi and cray machines but will become available on other platforms in time bundled with every new sgi machine as far as i know see comp graphics explorer or comp sys sgi for discussion of the package there are also two ftp servers for related stuff modules etc ftp epcc ed ac uk swedishchef lerc nasa gov mirror of the uk site ape back in the old good days you could get ape for nearly free now has gone commercial and the following vendor supplies it taravisual corporation harrison avenue columbus ohio tel and fax cost plus tax runtime version with a site license for a single user at a time no limit on the number of machines in a cluster includes support maintenance and upgrades source code more additional user licenses the name of the package has become ape iii tm khoros is very similar to ape on philosophy as are avs and explorer avs see also comp graphics avs platforms convex cray dec evans sutherland hp ibm kubota set technologies sgi stardent sun wavetracer availability avs available on all the above for all unix workstations contact advanced visual systems inc fifth ave waltham ma telephone fax avs avs com email advanced visual systems inc for cray hp ibm sgi stardent sun convex for convex advanced visual systems inc or cray for cray dec for dec evans sutherland for evans sutherland advanced visual systems inc or ibm for ibm kubota pacific inc for kubota set technologies for set technologies wavetracer for wavetracer ftp site for modules data sets other info avs ncsc org wit in a nutshell it s a package of the same genre as avs explorer etc it seems more a image processing system than a generic scivi system imho major elements are a visual programming language which automatically exploits the inherent parallelism a code generator which converts the graph to a standalone program iconified libraries present a rich set of point filter io transform morphological segmentation and measurement operations a flow library allows graphs to employ broadcast merge synchronization conditional and sequencing control strategies wit delivers an object oriented distributed visual programming environment which allows users to rapidly design solutions to their imaging problems users can consolidate both software and hardware developments within a complete cad like workspace by adding their own operators c functions objects data structures and servers specialized hardware wit runs on sun hp xx sgi and supports datacube mv hardware allowing you to run your graphs in real time for a free wit demo disk call fax or e mail poon ee ubc ca us stating your complete name address voice fax e mail info and desired platform pricing wit for sparc one yr free upgrades days technical support us academic institutions discounts available contact logical vision ltd suite gilmore way burnaby b c canada v g m tel fax terry arden poon ee ubc ca vis d a system for visually exploring the output of d gridded data sets such as those made by weather models platforms sgi iris with vgx gtx tg or g graphics sgi crimson or indigo r elan graphics suggested irix x ibm rs with gl graphics aix version or later stardent gs and gs with truecolor display in any case or more mb of ram are suggested you can get it freely thanks to nasa support via anonymous ftp ftp iris ssec wisc edu or ftp then ftp cd pub vis d ftp ascii ftp get readme ftp bye note you can find the package also on wuarchive wustl edu in the graphics graphics packages directory read section of the readme file for full instructions on how to get and install vis d contact bill hibbard whibbard vms macc wisc edu brian paul bpaul vms macc wisc edu dataexplorer ibm platforms ibm risc system ibm power visualization server simd mesh i s mhz working on announced sgi hp sun contact your local ibm rep for a trial package ask your rep to contact david kilgore data explorer product marketing yktvmh kilcore wavefront data visualizer personal visualizer advanced visualizer platforms sgi sun ibm rs hp dec availability available on all the above platforms from wavefront technologies educational programs and site licenses are available contacts mike wilson mike wti com wavefront technologies inc east montecito street santa barbara ca fax wavefront europe guldenspoorstraat b gent belgium fax wavefront technologies japan f shinjuku sumitomo bldg nishi shinjuku shunjuku ku tokyo japan fax plot d and fast from nasa ames these packages are distributed from cosmic at least for fast ask pat elson pelson nas nasa gov for distribution information in general these codes are for us citizens only xgraph on the contrib tape of x r its specialty is display of up to data sets d ncar national center for atmospheric research one of the original graphics packages runs on sun rs sgi vax cray y mp decstations and more contact graphics information ncar scientific computing division p o box boulder co scdinfo ncar ucar edu cost edu unlimited users gov user users users com users multiply gov idl an environment for scientific computing and visualization based on an array oriented language idl includes d and d graphics matrix manupulation signal and image processing basic statistics gridding mapping and a widget based system for building gui for idl applications open look motif or ms windows environments dec vms and ultrix hp ibm rs sgi sun microsoft windows mac version in progress cost to educational and quantity discounts available see also comp lang idl pvwave the idl pvwave bundle contact research systems inc th street suite boulder co phone fax e mail info rsinc com demo available via ftp call or e mail for details idl sips a lot of people are using idl with a package called sips this was developed at the university of colorado boulder by some people working for alex goetz you might try contacting them if you already have idl or would be willing to buy it it s a few thousand dollars american i expect for idl and the other should be free those are the general purpose packages i ve heard of besides what terramar has sips was written for aviris imagery i m not sure how general purpose it is you would have to contact goetz or one of his people and ask i have another piece of software pcw that does pc and walsh transformations with pseudocoloring and clustering and limited image modification you can compute an image using selected components i ve used it on megabyte aviris images without problems but for the best speed you need an external dsp card it will work without it but large images take quite a while times as long to process that s a freebie if you want it my favorite is idl interactive data language from research systems inc idl is in my opinion much better and infinitely easier its programming language is very strong and easy very pascal like it handles the number crunching very well also personally i like doing the number crunching with idl on the vax or mathematica igor or even excel on the mac if it s not too hairy then bringing it over to nih image for the imaging part i have yet to encounter any situation which that combination couldn t handle and the speed and ease of use compared to iraf was incredible by the way it s mostly astronomical image processing which i ve been doing this means image enhancement cleaning up bad lines pixels and some other traditional image processing routines then for example taking a graph of intensity versus position along a line i choose with the mouse then doing a curve fit to that line which i might do like in kaleidagraph for idl call research systems for pv wave call precision visuals and for sips call university of colorado boulder from what i can understand you can get packaged programs from research systems though nfotis visual contact robert haimes mit fieldview an interactive program designed to assist an engineer in investigating fluid dynamics data sets platforms sgi ibm hp sun x terminals availability currently available on all of the above platforms educational programs and volume discounts are available contact intelligent light p o box fair lawn nj steve kramer kramer ilight com scian scian is primarily intended to do d visualizations of data in an interactive environment with the ability to generate animations using frame accurate video recording devices a user manual on line help and technical notes will help you use the program cost free source code provided via ftp platforms sgi d machines and ibm rs with the gl card z buffer where to find it ftp scri fsu edu pub scian a mirror is monu cc monash edu au pub scian scry from the readme scry is a distributed image handling system that pro vides image transport and compression on local and wide area networks image viewing on workstations recording on video equipment and storage on disk the system can be distri buted among workstations between supercomputers and works tations and between supercomputers workstations and video animation controllers the system is most commonly used to produce video based movie displays of images resulting from visualization of time dependent data complex d data sets and image processing operations both the clients and servers run on a variety of systems that provide unix like c run time environments and bsd sockets the source is available for anonymous ftp csam lbl gov pub scry tar z contact bill johnston wejohnston lbl gov ucbvax csam lbl gov johnston or david robertson dwrobertson lbl gov ucbvax csam lbl gov davidr imaging technologies group ms b lawrence berkeley laboratory cyclotron road berkeley ca svlib fvs svlib is an x windows widget set based on the osf open software foundation motif widget set svlib widgets are macro widgets comprising lower level motif widgets such as buttons scrollbars menus and drawing areas it is designed to address the reusability of d visualization routines and each widget in the library is an encapsulation of a specific visualization technique such as colormap manipulation image display and contour plotting it is targetted to run on unix workstations supporting osf motif currently only color monitors are supported since svlib is a collection of widgets developed in the same spirit as the osf motif user interface widget set it integrates seamlessly with the motif widgets programmers using svlib widgets see the same interface and design as other motif widgets fvs is a visualization software for computational fluid dynamics cfd simulations fvs is designed to accept data generated from these simulations and apply various visualization techniques to present these data graphically fvs accepts three dimensional multi block data recorded in ncsa hdf format iti gov sg pub svlib scientific visualization pu fvs these directories contain demo binaries for sun sgi cost us for academic and us for non academic institutions for each of the above items you re getting the source for the licence contact miss quek lee hian member of technical staff information technology institute national computer board ncb building sicence park drive singapore republic of singapore tel fax email leehian iti gov sg gvlware distribution bob an interactive volume renderer for the sgi raz a disk based movie player for the sgi icol motif color editor the army high performance computing research center ahpcrc has been developing a set of tools to work with large time dependent d and d data sets in the graphics and visualization lab gvl we are using these tools along side standard packages such as sgi explorer and the utah raster toolkit to render d volumes and create digital movies a couple of the more general purpose programs have been bundled into a package called gvlware gvlware currently consisting of bob raz and icol is now available via ftp the most interesting program is probably bob an interactive volume renderer for the sgi raz streams raster images from disk to an sgi screen enabling movies larger than memory to be played icol is a color map editor that works with bob and raz source and pre built binaries for irix are included to acquire gvlware anonymous ftp to machine ftp arc umn edu file pub gvl tar z to use gvlware mkdir gvl cd gvl zcat gvl tar z tar xvf more readme some bob features motif interface sgi gl rendering renders cubed data set in to seconds on a vgx alpha compositing and maximum value rendering in perspective only maximum value rendering on personal iris data must be a brick of bytes on a regularly spaced grid animation subvolumes subsampling stereo some raz features motif interface sgi gl rendering loads files to a raw disk partition then streams to screen requires an empty disk partition to be set aside script interface available for movie sequences can stream from memory like ncsa ximage some icol features motif interface easy to create interpolated color maps between key points rgb hsv and yuv color spaces multiple file formats communicates changes automatically to bob and raz has been tested on sgi sun dec and cray systems btw bob brick of bytes icol interpolated color raz just a name please send any comments to gvlware ahpcrc umn edu this software collection is supported by the army research office contract number daalo c with the university of minnesota army high performance computing research center iap imaging applications platform is a commercial package for medical and scientific visualization it does volume rendering binary surface rendering multiplanar reformating image manipulation cine sequencing intermixes geometry and text with images and provides measurement and coordinate transform abilities it can provide hardcopy on most medical film printers image database functionality and interconnection to most medical ct mri etc scanners it is client server based and provides an object oriented interface it runs on most high performance workstations and takes full advantage of parallelism where it is available it is robust efficient and will be submitted for fda approval for use in medical applications cost k for oem developer k for educational developer and run times starting at and going down based on quantity the developer packages include two days training for two people in toronto available from isg technologies airport road mississauga ontario canada l v s e mail rod gilchrist rod isgtec com molecular visualization stuff based on a list from cristy dupont com cristy which asked for systems for displaying molecular dynamics md for short flex it is a public domain package written by michael pique at the scripps research institute la jolla ca flex is stored as a compressed tar ed archive about mb at perutz scripps edu in pub flex it displays molecular models and md trajectories macmolecule for macintosh i searched with archie and the most promising place is sumex aim stanford edu info mac app and info mac art qt for a demo md display runs on sgi machines call terry lybrand lybrand milton u washington edu xtalview it is a crystallography package that does visualize molecules and much more it uses the xview toolkit call duncan mcree dem scripps edu landman hal physics wayne edu i am writing my own visualization code right now i look at md output a specific format easy to alter for the subroutine on pc s my program has hooks into gks if your friend has access to phigs for x pex and fortran bindings i would be happy to share my evolving code free of charge right now it can display supercells of up to atoms easy to change and up to time steps drawing nearest neighbor bonds between defining nn radii it works acceptably fast on a mhz icsg caesar cs montana edu i did a project on molecular visualization for my master s thesis using unix x motif which generates a simple point and space filling model kgngraf kgngraf is part of motecc look on malena crs it in pub motecc motecc info txt information about motecc in plain ascii format motecc info troff information about motecc in troff format motecc form troff motecc order form in troff format motecc license troff motecc license agreement in troff format motecc info ps information about motecc in postscript format motecc form ps motecc order form in postscript format motecc license ps motecc license agreement in postscript format ditolla itnsg cineca it i m working on molecular dynamic too a friend of mine and i have developed a program to display an md run dynamically on silicon graphics we are working to improve it but it doesn t work under x we are using the graphi lib of the silicon gr because they are much faster then x when we ll end it we ll post on the news info about where to get it with ftp will be free software xball v written by david nedde call daven maxine wpi edu xmol an x window system program that uses osf motif for the display and analysis of molecular model data data from several common file formats can be read and written current formats include alchemy chemlab ii gaussian molsim mopac pdb and msci s xyz format which has been designed for simplicity in translating to and from other formats xmol also allows for conversion between several of these formats xmol is available at ftp msc edu read pub xmol readme for further details insight ii from biosym technologies inc scarecrow the program has been published in j molecular graphics the program can analyze and display charmm discover yasp and mumod trajectories the program package contains also software for the generation of probe surfaces proton affinity surfaces and molecular orbitals from an extended huckel program it works on silicon graphics machines contact leif laaksonen leif laaksonen csc fi or laaksone csc fi multi ns niehs nih gov pub multi multi process molecular modeling suite mindtool it runs under sunview and requires a fortran compiler and sun s cgi libraries mindtool is a tool provided for the interactive graphic manipulation of molecules and atoms currently up to atoms may be input available via anonymous ftp at rani chem yale edu directory pub mindtool check with archie for other sites if that s too far i would also suggest looking at least in sgi s applications directory it contains many more packages nfotis gis geographical information systems software grass geographic resource analysis support system of the us army construction engineering research lab cerl it is a popular geographic and remote sensing image processing package many may think of grass as a geographic information system rather than an image processing package although it is reported to have significant image processing capabilities feature descriptions i use grass because it s public domain and can be obtained through the internet for free grass runs in unix and is written in c the source code can be obtained through an anonymous ftp from the office of grass integration you then compile the source code for your machine using scripts provided with grass i would recommend grass for someone who already has a workstation and is on a limited budget grass is not very user friendly compared to macintosh software a first review of overview documentation indicates that it looks useful and has some pixel resampling functions not in other packages plus good general purpose image enhancement routines fft kelly maurice at vexcel corp in boulder co is a primary user of grass this gentleman has used the grass software and developed multi spectral bands volumetric rendering full color on suns and stardents it was a really effective interface vexcel corp currently has a contract to map part of venus and convert the magellan radar data into contour maps you can call them at or email care of greg vexcel com host configuration requirements if you are willing to run a ux you could install grass on a macintosh which has significant image analysis and import capabilities for satellite data grass is public domain and can run on a high end pc under unix it is raster based has some image processing capability and can display vector data but analysis must be done in the raster environment i have used grass v on a sun workstation and found it easy to use it is best of course for data that are well represented in raster grid cell form availability cerl s office of grass integration ogi maintains an ftp server moon cecer army mil mail regarding this site should be addressed to grass ftp admin moon cecer army mil this location will be the new canonical source for grass software as well as bug fixes contributed sources documentation and other files this ftp server also supports dynamic compression and uncompression and tar archiving of files a feature attraction of the server is john parks grass tutorial because the manual is still in beta test stage john requests that people only acquire it if they are willing to review it and mail him comments corrections the ogi is not currently maintaining this document so all correspondence about it should be directed to grassx tang uark edu support listserv mailing lists grassu list amber cecer army mil for grass users application level questions support concerns miscellaneous questions etc send subscribe commands to grassu request amber cecer army mil grassp list amber cecer army mil for grass programmers system level questions and tips tricks and techniques of design and implementation of grass applications send subscribe commands to grassp request amber cecer army mil both lists are maintained by the office of grass integration subset of the army corps of engineers construction engineering research lab in champaign il the ogi is providing the lists as a service to the community while ogi and cerl employees will participate in the lists we can make no claim as to content or veracity of messages that pass through the list if you have questions problems or comments send e mail to lists owner amber cecer army mil and a human will respond microstation imager intergraph based in huntsville alabama sells a wide range of gis software hardware microstation is a base graphics package that imager sits on top of imager is basically an image processing package with a heavy gis remote sensing flavor feature description basic geometry manipulations flip mirror rotate generalized affine rectification affine nd rd th and th order models as well as a projective model warp an image to a vector map or to another image rgb to ihs and ihs to rgb conversion principal component analysis classification k means and isodata fourier xforms forward filtering and reverse filters high pass low pass edge enhancing median generic complex histogram contrast control layer controller manages up to images at a time user can extract single bands from a band image or create color images by combining various individual bands etc the package is designed for a remote sensing application it can handle very large images and there is all kinds of other software available for gis applications host configuration requirements it runs on intergraph workstations a unix machine similar to a sun though there were rumors there are always rumors that the software would be ported to pc and possibly a sun environment pci a company called pci inc out of richmond hill ontario canada makes an array of software utilities for processing manipulation and use of remote sensing data in eight or ten different industry standard formats lgsowg bsq landsat and a couple of others whose titles i forget the software is available in versions for ms dos unix workstations among them hp sun and ibm and vms and quite possibly other platforms by now i use the vms version the pci software consists of several classes groups packages of utilities grouped by function but all operating on a common pci database disk file the tape i o package is a set of utility programs which read from the various remote sensing industry tape formats into or write those formats out from the pci database file this is the only package i use or know much about other packages can display data from the pci database to one or another of several pci supported third party color displays output numeric or bitmap representation of image data to an attached printer e g an epson type dot matrix graphics printer you might be more spe cifically interested in the mathematical operations package histo gram and fourier analysis equalization user specified operations e g multiply channel by add channel and store as channel and god only knows what all else there s a lot i don t have and don t use these so can t say much about them you only buy the packages your particular application interest calls for each utility is controlled by from one to eight parameters read from a common parameter file which must be in vms anyway in your default directory some utilities will share parameters and use the same parameter for a different purpose so it can get a bit confusing setting up a series of operations the standard pci environment contains a scripting language very similar to ibm pc basic but which allows you to automate the process of setting up parameters for a common complicated lengthy or difficult series of utility executions in vms i can also invoke utilities independently from a dcl command procedure there s also an optional programming library which allows you to write compiled language programs which can interface with read from write to the pci data structures database file parameter file the pci software is designed specifically for remote sensing images but requires such a level of operator expertise that once you reach the level where you can handle r s images you can figure out ways to handle a few other things as well for instance the tape i o package offers a utility for reading headerless multi band what adobe photoshop on the macintosh calls raw data from tape in a number of different interleave orders this turns out to be ideal for manipulating the graphic arts industry s ct t format would probably i haven t tried handle targa and so on above all however you have to know what you re doing or you can screw up to the nth degree and have to start over it s worth noting that the pci database file is designed to contain not only raster image data but vectors for overlaying map information entered via digitizing table land use and all manner of other information i observe that a remote sensing image tape often contains all manner of information about the spectral bands latitude longitude time date etc of the original satellite pass all of this can go into the pci database i believe that on workstations the built in display is used on vax systems other than workstations pci supports only a couple of specific third party display systems the name gould deanza seems to come to mind one of my personal workarounds was a display program which would display directly from a pci database file to a peritek vct q q bus bit directcolor display subsystem pci software could be overkill in your case it seems designed for the very high end applications users i e those for whom a mac pc largely doesn t suffice although as you know the gap is getting smaller all the time it s probably no coincidence that pci is located in canada a country which does a lot of its land resource management via remote sensing i believe the canadian government uses pci software for some of its work in these areas spam spectral analysis manager back in jpl developed something called spam spectral analysis manager which got a fair amount of use at the time that was designed for airborne imaging spectrometer imagery byte data pixels across by lines by bands a modified version has since been developed for aviris airborne visual and infrared imaging spectrometer which uses much larger images spam does none of these things rectification classification pc and ihs transformations filtering contrast enhancement overlays actually it does limited filtering and contrast enhancement stretching spam is aimed at spectral identification and clustering the original spam uses x or sunview to display the aviris version may require vicar an executive based on tae and may also require a frame buffer i can refer you to people if you re interested pcw requires x for display map ii among the mac gis systems map ii is distributed by john wiley clrview clrview is a dimensional visualization program designed to exploit the real time capabilities of silicon graphics iris computers this program is designed to provide a core set of tools to aid in the visualization of information from cad and gis sources it supports the integration of many common but disperate data sources such as dxf tin dem lattices and arc info coverages among others clrview can be obtained from explorer dgp utoronto ca in the directory pub sgi clrview contact rodney hoinkes head of design applications centre for landscape research university of toronto tel email rodney dgp utoronto ca end of resource listing nick nikolaos fotis national technical univ of athens greece home esperidon st internet nfotis theseas ntua gr halandri gr uucp mcsun ariadne theseas nfotis athens greece fax
comp.graphics	apr computer graphics resource listing weekly part archive name graphics resources list part last modified computer graphics resource listing weekly posting part last change april many faqs including this listing are available on the archive site pit manager mit edu alias rtfm mit edu in the directory pub usenet news answers the name under which a faq is archived appears in the archive name line at the top of the article this faq is archived as graphics resources list part there s a mail server on that machine you send a e mail message to mail server pit manager mit edu containing the keyword help without quotes in the message body you can see in many other places for this listing see the item places to find the resource listing for more information items changed re arranged the subjects in order to fir better in the k article limit i plan on changing headers soon so be careful only the resource listing keys are sure to remain in the subject line places to find the resource listing d graphics editors a public domain free and shareware systems plotting packages molecular visualization stuff i m thinking of making this post bi weekly what do you think lines which got changed have the character in front of them added lines are prepended with a removed lines are just removed use diff to locate these changes this text is c copyright of nikolaos c fotis you can copy freely this file provided you keep this copyright notice intact compiled by nikolaos nick c fotis e mail nfotis theseas ntua gr please contact me for updates corrections etc disclaimer i do not guarantee the accuracy of this document use it at your own risk this is mainly a guide for computer graphics software i would suggest reading the comp graphics faq for image analysis stuff it s entitled date comp graphics frequently asked questions faq john t grieggs grieggs jpl devvax jpl nasa gov is the poster of the official comp graphics faq i have included my comments within braces and nikolaos fotis contents of the resource listing part places to find the resource listing archie notes computer graphics ftp site list by eric haines mail servers and graphics oriented bbses ray tracing graphics related mailing lists d graphics editors a public domain free and shareware systems b commercial systems scene description languages solids description formats part plotting packages image analysis software image processing and display part scene generators geographical data maps data files d scanners digitized d data background imagery textures datafiles introduction to rendering algorithms a ray tracing b z buffer depth buffer c others where can i find the geometric data for the a teapot b space shuttle image annotation software scientific visualization stuff molecular visualization stuff gis geographical information systems software future additions please send me updates info places to find the resource listing this file is crossposted to comp graphics comp answers and news answers so if you can t locate it in comp graphics you re advised to search in comp answers or news answers the latter groups usually are archived in your site contact your sysadmin for more info these articles are posted to comp graphics times a month and are kept in many places see below many faqs including this one are available on the archive site pit manager mit edu alias rtfm mit edu in the directory pub usenet news answers the name under which a faq is archived appears in the archive name line at the top of the article this faq is archived as graphics resources list part there s a mail server on that machine you send a e mail message to mail server pit manager mit edu containing help in the subject field the inria graphlib mail server mirrors this posting see under the subject mail servers the resource listing is accesible through wais in the machine enuxva eas asu edu port under the name graphics resources list it s got a digest type line before every numbered item for purposes of indexing another place that monitors the listing is the maasinfo files for more info contact robert e maas rem btr com yet another place to search for faqs in general is the switch swiss academic and research network system in switzerland interactive telnet nic switch ch login as info move to the info service usenet periodic postings directory search in the index file by typing and the word to look for you may then just read the faq in the faqs directory or decide to fetch it by one of the following methods ftp login to nic switch ch as user anonymous and enter your internet style address after being prompted for a password cd info service usenet periodic postings mail send e mail to rfc archive server nic switch ch x s archive server ou nic o switch prmd switch admd arcom c ch enter help in the bodypart to receive instructions no information is required in the subject header line archie the archie is a service system to locate ftp places for requested files it s appreciated that you will use archie before asking help in the newsgroups archie servers archie au or aussie nz archie funet fi or finland eur archie th darmstadt de or ger cs huji ac il or israel archie kuis kyoto u ac jp or japan archie sogang ac kr or korea archie ncu edu tw or telnet twn archie doc ic ac uk or uk ireland archie sura net or usa md archie unl edu password archie usa ne archie ans net or usa ny archie rutgers edu or usa nj archie nz or new zealand connect to archie server with telnet and type archie as username to get help type help you can get xarchie or archie which are clients that call archie without the burden of a telnet session xarchie is on the x r contrib tape and archie on comp sources misc vol to get information on how to use archie via e mail send mail with subject help to archie account at any of above sites note to janet pss users the united kingdom archie site is accessible on the janet host doc ic ac uk connect to it and specify archie as the host name and archie as the username notes excerpted from the faq article please do not post or mail messages saying i can t ftp could someone mail this to me there are a number of automated mail servers that will send you things like this in response to a message there are a number of sites that archive the usenet sources newsgroups and make them available via an email query system you send a message to an automated server saying something like send comp sources unix fbm and a few hours or days later you get the file in the mail computer graphics ftp site list by eric haines computer graphics related ftp sites and maintainers compiled by eric haines erich eye com and nick fotis nfotis theseas ntua gr ray tracers rayshade a great ray tracer for workstations on up also for pc mac amiga pov son and successor to dkb trace written by compuservers for more questions call drew wells compuserve com or dave buck david buck carleton ca art ray tracer with a good range of surface types part of vort package dkbtrace another good ray tracer from all reports pcs mac ii amiga unix vms last two with x previewer etc rtrace portugese ray tracer does bicubic patches csg d text etc etc an ms dos version for use with djgpp dos extender go exists also as a mac port vivid a shareware raytracer for pcs binary only author stephen coy coy ssc vax boeing com the no source version is available to registered users us direct from the author ray steve hollasch s dimensional ray tracer renders hyperspheres hypertetrahedra hyperplanes and hyperparallelepipeds there s a separate real time wireframe viewer written in gl called wire mtv qrt dbw yet more ray tracers some with interesting features distributed parallel raytracers xdart a distributed ray tracer that runs under x there are server binaries which work only on decstations sparcs hp snakes x series and next the clients are distributed as binaries and c source inetray a network version of rayshade needs sun rpc or newer contact andreas thurnherr ant ips id ethz ch prt vm pray parallel ray tracers volume renderers vrend cornell s volume renderer from kartch devine caffey warren fortran radiosity and diffuse lighting renderers radiance a ray tracer w radiosity effects by greg ward excellent shading models and physically based lighting simulation unix x based though has been ported to the amiga and the pc india an indian radiosity package based on radiance sgi rad an interactive radiosity package that runs on sgi machines with a spaceball it includes a house database author guy moreillon moreillo ligsg epfl ch rad a simple public domain radiosity package in c the solution can be run stand alone on any unix box but the walk through requires a sgi d author bernard kwok g kwok cs yorku ca renderers which are not raytracers and graphics libraries sipp scan line z buffer and phong shading renderer now uses the shadow buffer algorithm tcl sipp a tcl command interface to the sipp rendering program tcl sipp is a set of tcl commands used to programmed sipp without having to write and compile c code commands are used to specify surfaces objects scenes and rendering options it renders either in ppm format or in utah raster toolkit rle format or to the photo widget in the tk based x applications vogle graphics learning environment device portable vogl an sgi gl like library based on vogle rend a fast polygon renderer for intel s and up version on up it s not photorealistic but rather a real time renderer xsharp dr dobb s journal pc renderer source code with budget texture mapping modellers wireframe viewers vision d mac modeler can output radiance rayshade files irit a csg solid modeler with support for freeform surfaces x d a wireframe viewer for x dv d wireframe graphics toolkit with c source dv objects other stuff look at major pc archives like wuarchive one such file is dkit zip pv d a shareware front end modeler for povray still in beta test french docs for now price for registering french francs save disabled some extra utilities dxf files for the registered version geometric viewers salem a gl based package from dobkin et al for exploring mathematical structures geomview a gl based package for looking and interactively manipulating d objects from geometry center at minnesota xyz geobench experimental geometry zurich is a workbench for geometric computation for macintosh computers wire gl wireframe previewer for steve hollasch s ray see above data formats and data sets for ray tracing spd a set of procedural databases for testing ray tracers nff simplistic file format used by spd off another file format p d a lispy file format tddd imagine d modeler format has converters for rayshade nff off etc also includes a nice postscript object displayer some great models ttdddlib converts to from tddd ttddd off nff rayshade imagine and vort d objects also outputs framemaker mif files and isometric views in postscript registered users get a tex pk font converter and a superquadric surfaces generator glenn lewis glewis pcocd intel com note ttdddlib is also known as t dlib chvrtd chapel hill volume rendering test datasets includes volume sets for two heads a brain a knee electron density maps for rna and others written material on rendering rt news collections of articles on ray tracing rt bib references to articles on ray tracing in refer format rad bib references to articles on radiosity global illumination speer rt bib rick speer s cross referenced rt bib in postscript rt abstracts collection by tom wilson of abstracts of many rt articles paper bank project various technical papers in electronic form contact juhana kouhia jk cs tut fi online bibliography project the acm siggraph online bibliography project is a database of over unique computer graphics and computational geometry references in bibtex format available to the computer graphics community as a research and educational resource the database is located at siggraph org users may download the bibtex files via ftp and peruse them offline or telnet to siggraph org and log in as biblio and interactively search the database for entries of interest by keyword for the people without internet access there s also an e mail server send mail to archive server siggraph org and in the subject or the body of the message include the message send followed by the topic and subtopic you wish a good place to start is with the command send index which will give you an up to date list of available information additions corrections suggestions may be directed to the admin bibadmin siggraph org image manipulation libraries utah raster toolkit nice image manipulation tools pbmplus a great package for image conversion and manipulation libtiff library for reading writing tiff images imagemagick x package for display and interactive manipulation of images uses its own format miff and includes some converters xv x based image display manipulation and format converter xloadimage xli displays various formats on an x screen khoros a huge excellent system for image processing with a visual programming interface and much much more uses x windows fbm another set of image manipulation tools somewhat old now img image manipulation displays on x screen a bit old now xflick plays fli animation under x xanim plays any resolution fli along with gif s including gif a animation extensions dl s and amiga iff animations j l and iff pictures including ham ehb and color cycling sdsc sdsc image tools package san diego supercomputing center for image manipulation and conversion clrpaint a bit paint program for sgi bit workstations and bit indigos libraries with code for graphics graphics gems i ii iii code from the ever so useful books spline patch tar z spline patch ray intersection routines by sean graves kaleido computation and d display of uniform polyhedra mirrored in wuarchive this package computes and displays the metrical properties of polyhedra author dr zvi har el e mail rl gauss technion ac il means site is an official distributor so is most up to date north america please look for things on your own continent first wuarchive wustl edu graphics graphics get contents file for a roadmap graphics graphics objects tddd the ttddd objects and converters mirrors unix c graphics rayshade ray tracer mtv ray tracer vort ray tracer fbm pbmplus popi utah raster toolkit mirrors msdos graphics dkb ray tracer fli raytracker demos pub rad tar z sgi rad graphics graphics radiosity radiance and indian radiosity package msdos ddjmag ddj zip version of xsharp with fast texture mapping there s lots more including bibs graphics gems i ii code off rtn radiance nff sipp spline patch intersection routines textbook errata source code from roy hall s book illumination and color in computer generated imagery etc graphics graphics packages kaleido kaleido george kyriazis kyriazis turing cs rpi edu princeton edu pub graphics note capital g rayshade ray tracer and separate executable color quantization code spd rt news wilson s rt abstracts rt bib utah raster toolkit newer fbm graphics gems i ii iii code pub graphics directory salem and other stuff craig kolb cek princeton edu replaces weedeater math yale edu note the capital g in pub graphics because there s a trouble with princeton s incoming area you can upload rayshade specific stuff to weedeater math yale edu alfred ccs carleton ca pub dkbtrace dkb ray tracer pub pov ray pov ray pvray compuserve group ray tracer or pov david buck david buck carleton ca avalon chinalake navy mil d objects multiple formats utilities file format documents this site was created to be a d object repository for the net francisco x dejesus dejesus archimedes chinalake navy mil omicron cs unc edu pub softlab chvrtd chapel hill volume rendering test datasets ftp mv com official ddj ftp repository xsharp peipa essex ac uk the pilot european image processing archive in a directory ipa synth or something like that there are image synthesis packages adrian clarke alien essex ac uk barkley berkeley edu tcl extensions tsipp b tar z tcl sipp mark diekhans markd grizzly com or markd neosoft com acs cps msu edu pub sass x window fonts converter into rayshade polygons rayshade animation tool s ron sass sass cps msu edu hobbes lbl gov radiance ray trace radiosity package greg ward gjward lbl gov geom umn edu pub geomview geomview contact for geomview software geom umn edu ftp arc umn edu pub gvl tar z the latest version of bob icol and raz source a manual man pages and binaries for irix are included bob is a real time volume renderer pub contains also many volume datasets ken chin purcell ken ahpcrc umn edu ftp kpc com pub graphics holl steve hollasch s thesis pub graphics ray ray pub graphics wire wire pub mirror avalon mirror of avalon s d objects repository steve hollasch hollasch kpc com swedishchef lerc nasa gov programs hollasch d ray sgi explorer modules and postscript manual etc zamenhof cs rice edu pub graphics formats various electronic documents about many object and image formats mark hall foo cs rice edu will apparently no longer be maintaining it see ftp ncsa uiuc edu rascal ics utexas edu misc mac inqueue vision d facet based modeller can output rayshade and radiance files ftp ncsa uiuc edu misc file formats graphics formats contains various image and object format descriptions many scivi tools in various directories e g sgi alpha shape alvis tar z d alpha shape visualizer sgi machines only sgi polyview polyview z interactive visualization and analysis of d geometrical structures quincey koziol koziol ncsa uiuc edu tucana noao edu iraf the iraf astronomy package ftp ipl rpi edu sigma erich spd images and haines thesis images pub images various and bit image stills and sequences kevin martin sigma ipl rpi edu ftp psc edu pub p d p d tar p d lispy scene language renderers joel welling welling seurat psc edu ftp ee lbl gov pbmplus tar z rayshade data files jef poskanzer jef ace ee lbl gov george lbl gov pub ccs lib ccs tar z ccs complex conversion system a standard software interface for image processing hanauma stanford edu pub graphics comp graphics best of comp graphics very extensive ray tracers dbw mtv qrt and more joe dellinger joe hanauma stanford edu ftp uu net graphics irit rt news back issues not complete nurbs models other graphics related material graphics jpeg jpegsrc v tar z independent jpeg group package for reading and writing jpeg files freebie engin umich edu utah raster toolkit spencer thomas thomas eecs umich edu export lcs mit edu contrib pbmplus image magick xloadimage xli xv img lots more pub r untarred mit demos gpc ncga graphics performance characterization gpc suite life pawl rpi edu pub ray kyriazis stochastic ray tracer george kyriazis kyriazis turing cs rpi edu cs utah edu pub utah raster toolkit nurbs databases jamie painter jamie cs utah edu gatekeeper dec com pub dec off tar z off models also gpc benchmark files planned but not checked randi rost rost kpc com hubcap clemson edu pub amiga incoming imagine stuff for the amiga imagine turbo silver ray tracers pub amiga ttdddlib ttdddlib pub amiga incoming imagine objects many objects glenn lewis glewis pcocd intel com pprg eece unm edu pub khoros khoros image processing package huge but great danielle argiro danielle bullwinkle unm edu expo lcs mit edu contrib pbmplus portable bitmap package poskbitmaptars bitmap collection raveling img xloadimage jef poskanzer jef well sf ca us venera isi edu pub img tar z and img tar z some image manipulation pub images rgb separation photos paul raveling raveling venera isi edu ucsd edu graphics utah rle toolkit pbmplus fbm databases mtv dbw and other ray tracers world map other stuff not updated much recently castlab engr wisc edu pub x d tar z x d pub xdart xdart mark spychalla spy castlab engr wisc edu sgi com graphics tiff tiff spec libtiff software and pics also much sgi and gl related stuff e g opengl manuals sam leffler sam sgi com supercedes okeeffe berkeley edu for the libtiff stuff surya waterloo edu graphics fbm ray tracers ftp sdsc edu sdscpub sdsc ftp brl mil brl cad information on how to get the brl cad package ray tracer images various test images a texture library has also begun here lee a butler butler brl mil cicero cs umass edu texture temp x grayscale brodatz textures from julien flack julien scs leeds ac uk karazm math uh edu pub graphics rtabs shar z wilson s rt abstracts vm pray j eric townsend jet karazm math uh edu or jet nas nasa gov ftp pitt edu users qralston images bit image archive small james ralston crawford qralston gl pitt edu ftp tc cornell edu pub vis vrend sunee waterloo edu pub raytracers vivid rend or sunee uwaterloo ca archive umich edu msdos graphics pc graphics stuff msdos graphics raytrace vivid apple apple com pub archivevol prt research att com netlib graphics spd package polyhedra polyhedra databases if you don t have ftp use the netlib automatic mail replier uucp research netlib internet netlib ornl gov send one line message send index for more info send haines from graphics to get the spd siggraph org siggraph archive site publications online bibliography project conference proceedings in various electronic formats papers panels siggraph video review information and order forms other stuff in various directories automatic mailer is archive server siggraph org send index ftp cs unc edu pub reaction diffusion greg turk s work on reaction diffusion textures x windows code siggraph avs ncsc org ftp volvis volume datasets from the boston workshop on volume visualization this site is also the international avs center terry myerson tvv ncsc org uvacs cs virginia edu pub suit demo sparc dec etc suit simple user interface toolkit finger suit uvacs cs virginia edu to get detailed instructions nexus yorku ca pub reports radiosity code tar z rad pub reports radiosity thesis ps z rad msc thesis this site will be changed to ftp yorku ca in the near future milton u washington edu ftp public veos veos virtual reality and distributed applications prototyping environment for unix veos software support veos support hitl washington edu oldpublic fly fly d visualization software demo that package is built for fly throughs from various datasets in near real time there are binaries for many platforms also much other virtual reality stuff zug csmil umich edu x xpecs d files an lcd glass shutter for amiga computers great for vr stuff sugrfx acs syr edu various stereo pair images has closed down sunsite unc edu pub academic computer science virtual reality final copy of the sugrfx acs syr edu archive that ceased to exist it contains powerglove code vr papers d images and irc research material jonathan magid jem sunsite unc edu archive cis ohio state edu pub siggraph code for siggraph course procedural modeling and rendering techniques dr david s ebert ebert cis ohio state edu lyapunov ucsd edu this machine is considered the repository for preprints and programs for nonlinear dynamics signal processing and related subjects and fractals of course matt kennel mbk inls ucsd edu cod nosc mil pub grid ps tex ascii a short survey of methods to interpolate and contour bivariate data ics uci edu honig various stereo pair images movie c animates a movie on an x display bit and mono with digital subtraction taurus cs nps navy mil pub dabro cyberware demo tar z human head data pioneer unm edu pub texture maps hans du buf s grayscale test textures aerial swatches brodatz textures synthetic swatches space planetary image repository provides access to cd roms with data images on line at a time pub info beginner info here you should start browsing colby kraybill opus pioneer unm edu cs brown edu srgp sphigs for more info on srgp sphigs mail s software distribution graphtext cs brown edu pdb pdb bnl gov has data about various organic molecules bonds between the different atoms etc atomic coordinates and a load of other stuff are contained in the ent files but the actual atomic dimemsions seem to be missing you could convert these data to pov rayshade etc biome bio ns ca pub art some renoir paintings escher s pictures etc ic ee umanitoba ca specmark sample set of images from the images from the edge cd rom images of atomic landscapes advanced semiconductors superconductors and experimental surface chemistry among others contact ruskin ee umanitoba ca explorer dgp toronto edu pub sgi clrpaint clrpaint pub sgi clrview clrview a tool that aids in visualization of gis datasets in may formats like dxf dem arc info etc ames arc nasa gov pub space cdrom images from magellan and viking missions etc get pub space index first pub spacelink has most of the spacelink service data see below e mail server available send mail to archive server ames arc nasa gov or ames archive server with subject help or send space index without the quotes peter yee yee ames arc nasa gov pubinfo jpl nasa gov images other data etc from jpl missions modem access at no parity data bits stop bit newsdesk jplpost jpl nasa gov or phone spacelink msfc nasa gov passwd guest space graphics and gif images from nasa s planetary probes and the hubble telescope main function is support for teachers you can telnet also to this site dial up access v baud bits no parity stop bit stsci edu hubble space telescope stuff images and other data read the readme first pete reppert reppert stsci edu or chris o dea odea stsci edu pit manager mit edu pub usenet news answers the land of faqs graphics and pictures directories of particular interest also available from mail server pit manager mit edu by sending a mail message containing help uucp archive avatar rt news back issues for details write kory hamzeh kory avatar avatar com europe nic funet fi pub sci papers paper bank project including pete shirley s entire thesis with pics wilson s rt abstracts pub misc cia worldmap cia world data bank comp graphics research archive india and much much more juhana kouhia jk cs tut fi dasun epfl ch radiance good for european sites but doesn t carry the add ons that are available for radiance isy liu se pub sipp sipp tar z sipp scan line z buffer and phong shading renderer jonas yngvesson jonas y isy liu se irisa fr ipsc vm pray ray tracer spd nff many non spd nff format scenes rayshade data files didier badouel badouel irisa irisa fr may have disappeared phoenix oulu fi fli raytracker animation files pc vga also big flis rayscene demos americans check wuarchive first more animations to come jari kahkonen hole phoenix oulu fi jyu fi pub graphics ray traces many ray tracers including vm pray dbw dkb mtv qrt rayshade some rt news nff files jari toivanen toivanen jyu fi garbo uwasa fi much pc stuff etc pc source contour f fortran program to contour scattered data using linear triangle based interpolation asterix inescn pt pub rtrace rtrace nffutils tar z nff utilities for rtrace medical data cat etc converters to nff autocad to nff autolisp code autocad to scn rtrace s language converter and other goodies antonio costa acc asterix inescn pt vega hut fi graphics rtn archive ray tracers mtv qrt others nff some models it was shut down months ago check under nic funet fi nfotis sun nl nluug nl pub graphics raytrace dbw microray mtv etc unix hensa ac uk misc unix ralcgm ralcgm tar z cgm viewer and converter there s an e mail server also mail to archive unix hensa ac uk with the message body send misc unix ralcgm ralcgm tar z maeglin mt luth se graphics raytracing prt others doc wilson s rt abstracts vivid ftp fu berlin de pub unix graphics rayshade inputs aq tar z is rayshade aquarium americans check princeton edu first heiko schlichting heiko math fu berlin de maggia ethz ch pub inetray inetray and sun rpc code andreas thurnherr ant ips id ethz ch osgiliath id dth dk pub amiga graphics radiance amiga port of radiance per bojsen bojsen ithil id dth dk ftp informatik uni oldenburg de pov raytracer mirrored in wuarchive has many goods for pov pub dkbtrace incoming polyray polyray raytracer pub dkbtrace incoming pv d pv d ftp uni kl de pub amiga raytracing imagine mirror of the hubcap imagine files neptune inf ethz ch xyz xyz geobench peter schorn schorn inf ethz ch iamsun unibe ch graphics graphtal a l system interpreter christoph streit streit iam unibe ch amiga physik unizh ch amiga gfx graphics stuff for the amiga computer stesis hq eso org on line access to a huge astronomical database login starcat no passwd decnet stesis it s the space telescope european coordination facility benoit pirenne bpirenne eso org phone middle east gauss technion ac il kaleida australia gondwana ecr mu oz au pub vort art ray tracer vogle wilson s ray tracing abstracts pub contrib artscenes art scenes from italy pub images haines haines thesis images graphics gems code spd nff off databases nff and off previewers plus some and bit images and lots of other stuff pub rad tar z sgi rad bernie kirby bernie ecr mu oz au munnari oz au pub graphics vort tar z vort art csg and algebraic surface ray tracer vogle pub dbw pbmplus graphics room tar z art scenes from italy david hook dgh munnari oz au marsh cs curtin edu au pub graphics bibliography facial animation pub graphics bibliography morph pub graphics bibliography ui stuff about facial animation morphing and user interfaces pub fascia fred parke s fascia program valerie hall val lillee cs curtin edu au oceania asia ccu aukland ac nz ftp mac architec vision d facet based modeller can output rayshade files many other neat things for macs paul bourke pdbourke ccu aukland ac nz scslwide sony co jp ftp sgi facial animation steve franks site for facial animation steve franks stevef csl sony co jp or stevef cs umr edu mail servers and graphics oriented bbses please check first with the ftp places above with archie s help don t overuse mail servers there are some troubles with wrong return addresses many of these mail servers have a command like path a valid return e mail address to get a hint for sending back to you stuff dec s ftpmail send a one line message to ftpmail decwrl dec com without a subject field and having a line containing the word help you should get back a message detailing the relevant procedures you must follow in order to get the files you want note that the reply or answer command in your mailer will not work for this message or any other mail you receive from ftpmail to send requests to ftpmail send an original mail message not a reply complaints should be sent to the ftpmail request uucp gw pa dec com address rather than to postmaster since decwrl s postmaster is not responsible for fixing ftpmail problems bitftp for bitnet sites only there s bitftp pucc send a one line help message to this address for more info lightwave d mail based file server a mail based file server for d objects bit jpeg images gif images and image maps is now online for all those with internet mail access the server is the official archive site for the lightwave d mail list and contains many pd and shareware graphics utilities for several computer platforms including amiga atari ibm and macintosh the server resides on a bbs called the graphics bbs the bbs is operational hours a day days a week at the phone number of it has upgraded its modem to a hayes ultra v bis v bis which has speeds from bps up to bps if you would like to submit objects scenes or images to the server please pack uuencode and then mail the files to the address server bobsbox rent com for information on obtaining files from the server send a mail message to the address file server graphics rent com with the following in the body of the message help dir and a help file describing how to use the server and a complete directory listing will be sent to you via mail now it includes the cyberware head and shouders in ttddd format check it out only if you can t use ftp nfotis inria graphlib pierre jancene and sabine coquillart launched the inria graphlib mail server a few months ago echo help mail inria graphlib inria fr will give you a quick summary of what inria graphlib contains and how to browse among its files echo send contents mail inria graphlib inria fr will return the extended summary as an other example echo send cgrl from misc mail inria graphlib inria fr will return the computer graphics resource listing mirrored from comp graphics bbses there are many bbses that store datafiles etc etc but a guide to these is beyond the scope of this listing and the resources of the author if you can point to me internet or mail accessible bbses that carry interesting stuff send me info studio amiga is a d modelling and ray tracing specific bbs hours meg online from jeff walkup pwappy well sf ca us the castle k v bis v v bis mnp in pacifica dang close to san francisco california usa the new user password is tao j oin base the castle g fx anim video d s i g of which i am the sig op lazerus bob lindabury operates a bbs see above the entry for the graphics bbs you can call me ray ray tracing related bbs in chicago suburbs or digital pixel sysop mark ng mcng descartes waterloo edu is based at toronto ontario canada phone storage space megs modem type k baud k zyxel v bis v mnp access fee none free system supported dos os amiga mac netmail currently no echo mail topics raytracing fractals graphics programming cad any comp graphics related from david tiberio dtiberio ic sunysb edu amiga graphics bbs in long island new york running hours at k v bis with megs on line we also subscribe to mailing lists of which originate from our bbs with more to be added soon these include lightwave imagine real d ray tracing database files include imagine d objects d renderings scalable fonts music modules sound samples demos animations utilities text databases and pending lightwave d objects the graphics alternative the graphics alternative is in el cerrito ca running hours a day at k hst v bis with mb online and a user base tga runs two nodes node is for public access and includes a free day trial subscription tga is the west coast host for pcgnet the profesional cad and graphics network supporting nodes across the continental u s alaska new zealand australia france and the uk tga s file database includes ms dos executables for pov vivid rtrace rayshade polyray and others tga also has numerous graphics utilities viewers and conversion utilities registered vivid users can also download the latest vivid aeta code from a special vivid conference from scott bethke sbathkey access digex com the intersection bbs this bbs is dedicated to supporting d animators the system is provided free of charge and is not commercialized in anyway users are given full access on the first call features usenet news internet mail fidonet echo s netmail megs online v bis v bis modem platforms of interest amiga the videotoaster macintosh ms dos unix workstations sun sgi etc atari st from alfonso hermida afanh robots gsfc nasa gov pi square bbs in maryland it supports raytracers such as pov and vivid the bbs runs off a mhz megs hard drive and cd rom now it runs on bps this will change soon topics graphics programming animation raytracing programming general from lynn falkow roxxie delphi com vertech design s graphic connection in portland oregon v v bis the bbs aside from carrying typical bbs services like message bases all topic specific and files cad and graphics related hundreds of megabytes also offers material texture files that are full color seamlessly tiling photo realistic images there are samples available to first time callers the bbs is a subscription system although callers have hours before they must subscribe and there are several subscription rates available people interested in materials can subscribe to the library in addition to a basic subscription rate and can use their purchased time to download whichever materials they wish ray tracing graphics related mailing lists imagine modeling and animation system for the amiga send subscription requests to imagine request email sp paramax com send material to imagine email sp paramax com dave wickard has substituted steve worley in the maintenance of the mailing list please note that the unisys com address is no longer valid lightwave for the amiga it s part of newtek s video toaster send subscription requests to lightwave request bobsbox rent com send material to lightwave bobsbox rent com bob lindabury toaster send subscription requests to listserv karazm math uh edu with a body of subscribe toaster list real d another modeling and animation system for the amiga to subscribe send a mail containing the body subscribe real d l your full name to listserv gu uwa edu au rayshade send subscription requests to rayshade request cs princeton edu send material to rayshade users cs princeton edu craig kolb alladin d for the amiga send subscription requests to subscribe xamiga linet org and in the body of the message write alladin d username domain radiance greg ward the author sends to registered via e mail users digests of his correspodence with them notes about fixes updates etc his address is gjward lbl gov rend send subscription requests to rend request sunee waterloo edu send material to rend sunee waterloo edu pov ray dkb raytracers to subscribe send a mail containing the body subscribe dkb l your full name to listserv trearn bitnet send material to dkb l trearn bitnet mailing list for massively parallel rendering send subscription requests to mp render request icase edu send material to mp render icase edu d graphics editors a public domain free and shareware systems vision d mac based program written by paul d bourke pdbourke ccu aukland ac nz the program can be used to generate models directly in the rayshade and radiance file formats polygons only it s shareware and listed on the ftp list brl a solid modeling system for most environments including sgi and x it has csg and nurbs plus support for non manifold geometry whatever it is you can get it free via ftp by signing and returning the relevant license found on ftp brl mil uses ray tracing for engineering analyses contact ms carla moyer tel fax cad dist brl mil e mail snail mail brl cad distribution surviac aberdeen satellite office old philadelphia road suite aberdeen md usa irit a constructive solid geometry csg modeling program for pc and x includes freeform surface support free see ftp list for where to find it surfmodel a solid modeling program for pc written in turbo pascal by ken van camp available from simtel pd msdos srfmodl directory noodles from cmu namely fritz printz and levent gursoz elg styx edrc cmu edu it s based on non manifold topology ask them for more info i don t know if they give it away xyz xyz is an interactive d editor builder written by dale p stocker to create objects for the surfacemodel automove and dkb raytracer packages xyz is free and can be found for example in simtel as msdos surfmodl xyz zip dos only dmod it s an msdos program check at barnacle erc clarkson edu pub msdos graphics dmod undocumented file format dmod is c by micah silverman pierrepoint ave postdam new york tel northcad shareware msdos cad ncad d zip in simtel undocumented file format vertex amiga shareware send us check or money order to the art machine nickolas sterling heights mi usa in addition to the now standard file formats including lightwave imagine sculpt turbo silver geo and wavefront this release offers d professional and rayshade support rayshade is supported only by the primitive triangle but you can easily include this output in your rayshade scripts the latest demo version is available on fred fish for more information contact the author alex deburie at ad s sycom mi org phone icoons amiga it s a spline based object modeller icoons interactive coons path editor in amiga physik unizh ch gfx d icoons lzh it s free under the gnu licence and requires fpu the program has a look feel which is a cross between journeyman and imagine and it generates objects in ttddd format it is possible to load journeyman objects into icoons so the program can be used to convert jman objects to imagine format author helge e rasmussen her compel dk phone fax it s also on fred fish disk series n nfotis protocad d ver from trius shareware it s at wsmr simtel army mil and oak oakland edu as pcad d zip for pcs it has this menu layout file file handling load save import xport draw draw d objects line circle box d draw d objects mesh sphere block edit editing features copy move surface modify objects revolve xtrude sweep image image zooming features update window half option global defaults grid toggles axis plot print drawing picture go image render shade objects frame lighting tune layer layer options select active layer set colors sculptura runs under windows and outputs pov files a demo can be found on wuarchive wustl edu in mirrors win demo demo d zip author michael gibson gibsonm stein u washington edu b commercial systems alpha a spline based modeling program written in university of utah features splines up to trimmed nurbs support for boolean operations sweeps bending warping flattening etc groups of objects and transformations extensible object types applications include nc machining animation utilities dimensioning fem analysis etc rendering subsystem with support for animations support the following platforms hp and s x r hp ux sgi d or pi machines x r and gl irix sun sparcstation x r sunos licensing and distribution is handled by egs glenn mcminn president engineering geometry systems east south temple suite salt lake city ut mcminn cs utah edu educational pricing the charge is per platform you may run the system on as many different workstations of that type as you wish for each platform there is also a licensing fee for portable standard lisp psl which is bundled with the system you need to obtain an additional license from the university of utah for psl from the following address professor robert kessler computer science department university of utah salt lake city utah egs can handle the licensing of psl for u s institutions for a usd nominal fee nfotis vertigo they have an educational institution program the package is used in the industrial design architectural scientific visualization educational broadcast imaging and post production fields they ll quoting from a letter sent to me nfotis donate fully configured vertigo d graphics software worth over usd per package to qualified educational institutions for licencing on any number of silicon graphics personal iris or power series workstations if you use an iris indigo station we will also licence our vertigo revolution software worth usd if you are interested in participating in this program please send a letter by mail or fax on your institution s letterhead briefly outlining your potential uses for vertigo together with the following information unix version model and number of sgi systems peripheral devices third party software participants will be asked to contribute usd per institution to cover costs of the manual administration and shipping we recommend that vertigo users subscribe to our technical support services for an annual fee you will receive technical assistance on our support hotline bug fixes software upgrades and manual updates for educational institution we will waive the administration fee if support is purchased the annual support fee is plus the following cost for additional machines number of machines additional cost per machine there s also a day training program nfotis contact vertigo technology inc suite west georgia st vancouver bc canada v e y phone fax does anyone know of such offers from tdi alias softimage wavefront etc this would be a very interesting part nfotis padl basically it s a solid modeling kernel in top of which you build your application s available by license from cornell programmable automation cornell university engineering and theory center ithaca ny license fees are very low for educational institutions and gov t agencies internal commercial licenses and re dissemination licenses are available for an information packet write to the above address or send your address to marisa cpa tn cornell edu richard marisa acis from spatial technology it s a solid modelling kernel callable from c heard that many universities got free copies from the company the person to contact regarding acis in academic institutions is scott owens e mail sdo spatial com and their address is spatial technology inc th st bldg a boulder co phone fax movie byu cquel byu basically in my understanding this is a fem pre and post proccessor system it s fairly old today but it still serves some people in mech eng depts now it s superseded from cquel byu pronounced sequel that s a complete modelling animation and visualization package runs in the usual workstation environments sun dec hp sgi ibm rs and others you can get a demo version days trial period either by sending usd in their address or a blank tape it costs for a full run time licence contact engineering computer graphics lab clyde building brigham young univ provo ut phone e mail cquel byu edu twixt soon to add stuff about it if i get a reply to my fax voxblast it s a volume renderer marketed by vaytek inc fairfield iowa phone running on pcs with fpu at least call vaytek for more info voxelbox a d volume renderer for windows features include direct ray traced volume rendering color and alpha mapping gradient lighting animation reflections and shadows runs on a pc or higher with at least an bit video card svga is fine under windows x it costs contact jaguar software inc main st suite b winchester ma jwp world std com john w poduska scene description languages nff neutral file format by eric haines very simple there are some procedural database generators in the spd package and many objects floating in various ftp sites there s also a previewer written in hp starbase from e haines also there s one written in vogle so you can use any of the devices vogle can output on check in sites carrying vogle like gondwana ecr mu oz au off object file format from dec s randy rost rost kpc com the object archive server seems to be mothballed in a future version i ll remove the ref to it nfotis available also through their mail server to obtain help about using this service send a message with a subject line containing only the word help and a null message body to object archive server decwrl dec com for ftp places to get it see in the relevant place there s an off previewer for sgi d machines called off preview in godzilla cgl rmit oz au there are previewers for xview and sunview also on gondwana tddd it s a library of d objects with translators to from off nff rayshade imagine or vort objects edited copy of the announcement follows from raytracing news v new library of d objects available via ftp by steve worley worley cup portal com i have assembled a set of over d objects in a binary format called tddd these objects range from human figures to airplanes from semi trucks to lampposts these objects are all freely distributable and most have readmes that describe them in order to convert these objects to a human readable format a file with the specification of tddd is included in the directory with the objects there is also a shareware system called ttdddlib officially on hubcap clemson edu that will convert ala pbm to from various object formats imagine ttddd extension of tddd off nff rayshade or vort source included for amiga unix as executables for the amiga also outputs framemaker mif files and isometric views in postscript p d from pittsburgh supercomputing center the p d uses lisp with slight extensions to store three dimensional models a simple lisp interpreter is included with the p d release so there is no need to have access to any vendor s lisp to run this software the mouse driven user interfaces for motif open look and silicon graphics gl and the drawp d subroutine library for generating p d without ever looking at the underlying lisp the p d software currently supports nine renderers they are painter painter s algorithm dore silicon graphics inc gl language generic phigs sun phigs dec phigs rayshade art ray tracer from vort package and pixar renderman the code is available via anonymous ftp from the machines ftp psc edu directory pub p d and nic funet fi directory pub graphics programs p d renderman pixar s renderman is not free call pixar for details solids description formats a eec s esprit project cad i cad interfaces has developed a neutral file format for transfer of cad data curves surfaces and solid models between cad systems and from cad to caa computer aided analysis an cam computer aided manufacturing b iges v now tries to define a standard to tranfer solid models brep and csg the current standard number is ansi y m for documentation you might want to contact nancy flower at ncga technical services and standards ext and the cost is this standard is not available in electronic format c pdes step this slowly emerging standard tries to encompass not only the geometrical information but also for things like fem etc the main bodies besides this standard are nist and darpa you can get more information about pdes by sending mail to nptserver cme nist gov and putting the line send index in the body not the subject area of the message the people at rutherford appleton lab are also working on step tools they have an express compiler and an exchange file parser both available in source form and for free for research purposes soon they will also have an express based database system for the tools contact mike mead phone fax x e mail mm inf rl ac uk or mcsun uknet rlinf mm or mm inf rl ac uk nsfnet relay ac uk end of part of the resource listing nick nikolaos fotis national technical univ of athens greece home esperidon st internet nfotis theseas ntua gr halandri gr uucp mcsun ariadne theseas nfotis athens greece fax
comp.graphics	ellipse from its offset hi everyone since some people quickly solved the problem of determining a sphere from points i suddenly recalled a problem which is how to find the ellipse from its offset for example given points on the offset can you find the original ellipse analytically i spent two months solving this problem by using analytical method last year but i failed under the pressure i had to use other method nonlinear programming technique to deal with this problem approximately any ideas will be greatly appreciated please post here let the others share our interests yeh usc
comp.graphics	re please recommend d graphics library for mac in z b w w cellar org tsa cellar org the silent assassin writes i m building a cad package and need a d graphics library that can handle some rudimentry tasks such as hidden line removal shading animation etc can you please offer some recommendations i think apda has something called macwireframe which is a full wire frame and supposedly hidden line removal library i think it weighs in at but i ve been wrong on an order of magnitude before libertarian atheist semi anarchal techno rat i can relate to that h jon w tte h nada kth se mac hacker deluxe on a clear disc you can seek forever
comp.graphics	to yhe one who wants fonts in pov polyray vivid to everyone who wants fonts in vivid pov polyray the borland bgi font converter is vvfont zip this program can be found on ftp informatik uni oldenburg de directory pub dkbtrace utils also wuarchive has mirrored this site directory graphics graphics mirrors ftp informatik uni oldenburg de pub dkbtrace utils there are more nice utilities present in this directory a new version of polyray for those asked for it can be found on the same sites but in the directory incoming instead of utils ply also in this directory povshell and pv dv could be found have a nive raytrace time peter peter vanderveen visser el wau nl o o department of genetics agricultural university u wageningen the netherlands
comp.graphics	newss i am working on a project where we are going to be including both still and moving grapics within a database of course jpeg and mpeg come to mind as the formats of choice for the various files however from what i read on the net it seems as if there are several different forms of each of these what i want to do is settle on a file format which i can count on as being a standard format years from now i know apple is going to support quicktime on the new power pc s and so this may be the format of choice what format does apple s quicktime use for their products i guess it is some kind of mpeg for their motion picture is it any different than standard mpeg files thanx for any info art pollarda xray byu edu
comp.graphics	pd d viewer wanted i am looking for a public domain d viewer it does not have to be very fancy the features i want is simple wireframe display flat shading simple transformation it would be nice to have hidden line any information is appreciated
comp.graphics	re cview answers in apr imag fr schaefer imag imag fr arno schaefer writes sorry bryan this is not quite correct remember the vgalib package that comes with linux sls it will switch to vga x x mode without xwindows so at least it is possible to write a gif viewer under linux however i don t think that there exists a similar svga package and viewing gifs in x is not very nice no vgalib amazing i guess it was lost in all those subdirs thanks for correcting me it doesn t sound very appealing though only x i m glad it wasn t something major i missed thanks
comp.graphics	re cview answers in article c lerr j rahul net bryanw rahul net bryan woodworth writes in apr whiting mcs com sean whiting mcs com sean gum writes a stupid question but what will cview run on and where can i get it i am still in need of a gif viewer for linux without x windows thanks ho boy there is no way in hell you are going to be able to view gifs or do any other graphics in linux without x windows i love linux because it is so easy to learn you want text okay use linux you want text and graphics use linux with x windows simple painless required to have x windows if you want graphics this includes fancy word processors like doc image viewers like xv etc sorry bryan this is not quite correct remember the vgalib package that comes with linux sls it will switch to vga x x mode without xwindows so at least it is possible to write a gif viewer under linux however i don t think that there exists a similar svga package and viewing gifs in x is not very nice best regards arno arno schaefer ensimag e annee email schaefer silene imag fr tel
comp.graphics	need specs info on apple quicktime i need to get the specs or at least a very verbose interpretation of the specs for quicktime technical articles from magazines and references to books would be nice too i also need the specs in a format usable on a unix or ms dos system i can t do much with the quicktime stuff they have on ftp apple com in its present format thanks in advance james d murray add sciences sdsu edu
comp.graphics	genoa graphics board drivers ftp site hi well i have opened up a ftp site for getting the latest software drivers for genoa graphics cards here is how to access it ftp login ftp password ftp cd pub genoa ls l binary prompt hash now if you wanna have the latest drivers for the board cd series mget quit this is the sequence to get the drivers if you have any further question please email me best regards stefan hartmann email to harti mikro ee tu berlin de
comp.graphics	re cview answers in c levt nj rahul net bryanw rahul net bryan woodworth writes in qlobb p a tuegate tue nl renew blade stack urc tue nl rene walter writes most info regarding dangers of reading from floppy disks omitted unrevcoverable way so be careful it is incredibly poor programming for a program to do this nevertheless it is an important bug that needs to be squashed i am merely pointing out that it was probably overlooked while it is serious one must keep in mind that it will probably affect at most of the targeted users of cview ok i don t use cview anymore but i saw that no one had explaind this bug in the thread so here goes it is not the fault of cview it is dos if you leave a file open on a floppy drive then change the disk and do something which updates or closes that file you have a good chance of getting part of the directory and fat from the other disk written to the new disk this has always been true and has destroyed data under other programs not just cview the only thing cview can do to improve the situation is to try not to leave files open unless it s actively using them ie reading and decoding kevin martin sigma rahul net i gotta get me another hat
comp.graphics	fast polygon routine needed this may be a fairly routine request on here but i m looking for a fast polygon routine to be used in a d game i have one that works right now but its very slow could anyone point me to one pref in asm that is fairly well documented and flexible thanx lucas
comp.graphics	re fast polygon routine needed in article c n x b l news cso uiuc edu osprey ux cso uiuc edu lucas adamski writes this may be a fairly routine request on here but i m looking for a fast polygon routine to be used in a d game a fast polygon routine to do what
comp.graphics	re rumours about do in article apr mercury unt edu mcmains unt edu sean mcmains writes wow a i d be very interested to get my hands on one of these especially considering the fact that motorola has not yet released the which is supposedly the next in the x lineup d a is just a with a built in mmu i don t even think that moto manufactures them ian romanick dancing fool of epsilon were the contained thoughts opinions epn ntsc quality best psu would probably not agree with them look i don t know anything about douche but i do know anti freeze when i see it the dead milkmen
comp.graphics	ms windows graphics viewer howdy all i was wondering if people could e mail me their opinions on the various graphics viewers available for ms windows x i m working on a project to set up our scanner and write documentation on how to use it and it would be nice to have a snazzy image viewer to look at and maybe even edit the image you just scanned the file formats i m looking for gif jpeg tiff pcx whatever other major file formats there are thanks a lot for your help grant grant totten programmer analyst trent university peterborough ontario gtotten trentu ca phone fax in the days of old when knights were bold and women were too cautious oh those gallant days when women were women and men were really obnoxious
comp.graphics	re rumours about do in article apr rchland ibm com ricardo rchland vnet ibm com ricardo hernandez muchado writes in article apr mercury unt edu sean mcmains mcmains unt edu writes in article apr rchland ibm com ricardo hernandez muchado ricardo rchland vnet ibm com writes and cd i s cpu doesn t help much either i understand it is a supposedly a variation of a running at something like mhz with this speed you truly need sprites snip the do is not a ricardo the animation playback to which lawrence was referring in an earlier post is plain old quicktime with the compact video codec i ve seen digitized video some of apple s early commercials to be precise running on a centris at about fps very nicely bit color depth i would expect that using the same algorithm a risc processor should be able to approach full screen full motion animation though as you ve implied the processor will be taxed more with highly dynamic material snip booth there i walked by and they were showing real time video capture using a radious or supermac card to digitize and make right on the spot quicktime movies i think the quicktime they were using was the old one they digitized a guy talking there in x xx something it played back quite nicely and in real time the guy then expanded the window resized to x by xx in y i think and the frame rate decreased enough to notice that it wasn t fps or about fps anymore it dropped to like fps then he increased it just a bit more and it dropped to fps then i asked him what mac he was using he was using a quadra don t know what model to do it and he was telling the guys there that the quicktime could play back at the same speed even on an lcii well i spoiled his claim so to say since a quadra mac was having a little bit of trouble and this wasn t even from the hardisk this was from memory could it be that you saw either a newer version of quicktime or some hardware assisted centris or another software product running the animation like supposedly macromind s accelerator don t misunderstand me i just want to clarify this the do box is based on an arm risc processor one or two custom graphics chips a dsp a double speed cdrom and mb of ram vram i m a little fuzzy on the breakdown of the graphics chips and ram vram capacity it was demonstrated at a recent gathering at the electronic cafe in santa monica ca from do rj mical of amiga lynx fame and hal josephson sp were there to talk about the machine and their plan we got to see the unit displaying full screen movies using the compactvideo codec which was nice very little blockiness showing clips from jaws and backdraft and a very high frame rate to boot like fps note however that the do s screen resolution is x compactvideo is pretty amazing i also wanted to point out that quicktime does indeed slow down when one dynamically resizes material as was stated above i m sure if the material had been compressed at the large size then it would play back fine i have a q and do this quite a bit the price of generality personally i don t use the dynamic sizing of movies often if ever but playing back stuff at its original size is plenty quick on the latest machines i m not sure how a centris mhz stacks up against the mhz arm in the do box obviously the arm is faster but how much rob barris quicksilver software inc rbarris orion oac uci edu
comp.graphics	re fast polygon routine needed in article apr sophia smith edu orourke sophia smith edu joseph o rourke writes in article c n x b l news cso uiuc edu osprey ux cso uiuc edu lucas adamski writes this may be a fairly routine request on here but i m looking for a fast polygon routine to be used in a d game a fast polygon routine to do what to draw polygons of course its a vga mode h x game done in c and asm i need a faster way to draw concave polygons that the method i have right now which is very slow lucas
comp.graphics	re cview answers in article c mv n t rahul net bryanw rahul net bryan woodworth writes in apr imag fr schaefer imag imag fr arno schaefer writes sorry bryan this is not quite correct remember the vgalib package that comes with linux sls it will switch to vga x x mode without xwindows so at least it is possible to write a gif viewer under linux however i don t think that there exists a similar svga package and viewing gifs in x is not very nice no vgalib amazing i guess it was lost in all those subdirs thanks for correcting me it doesn t sound very appealing though only x i m glad it wasn t something major i missed tommy frandsen s vgalib which is probably what you re talking about will do the standard vga modes some tweaked modes and then the tseng et super vga modes i have an et and i m viewing gif s at x i have a lousy small monitor with dpg view on linux i think i had to change some constants in the dpg view sources to make it use the et k modes vgalib s sources seem to be designed for easy addition of new super vga support each mode is an array of register values and there s a program that dumps an array declaration of this kind describing the current mode haven t tried it though btw my version of vgalib is kennu mits mdata fi try linux a free unix by linus torvalds for s read comp os linux or ask me by email if you like for more information you can run x tex gnu emacs and much more on top of a nice posix environment
comp.graphics	anyone know use rayshade out there i m using rayshade on the u w computers here and i d like input from other users and perhaps swap some ideas i could post uuencoded gifs here or ray code if anyone s interested i m having trouble coming up with colors that are metallic i e brass steel from the rgb values if you re on the u w machines check out fineman rle files rle on stein u washington edu for some of what i ve got dan
comp.graphics	re fake virtual reality the most ridiculous example of vr exploitation i ve seen so far is the virtual reality clothing company which recently opened up in vancouver as far as i can tell it s just another chic clothes spot although it would be interesting if they were selling virtual clothing e mail me if you want me to dig up their phone and you can probably get some promotional lit mp
comp.graphics	video in out i m getting ready to buy a multimedia workstation and would like a little advice i need a graphics card that will do video in and out under windows i was originally thinking of a targa but that doesn t work under windows what cards should i be looking into thanks craig to forgive is divine to be craig williamson an airhead is human craig williamson columbiasc ncr com balki bartokomas craig toontown columbiasc ncr com home perfect strangers
comp.graphics	ms windows screen grabber howdy all where could i find a screen grabber program for ms windows i m writing up some documentation and it would be very helpful to include sample screens into the document please e mail as i don t usualy follow this group thanks a lot grant grant totten programmer analyst trent university peterborough ontario gtotten trentu ca phone fax the human brain is like an enormous fish it is flat and slimy and has gills through which it can see monty python
comp.graphics	re rumours about do in article bd news service uci edu rbarris orion oac uci edu robert c barris writes we got to see the unit displaying full screen movies using the compactvideo codec which was nice very little blockiness showing clips from jaws and backdraft and a very high frame rate to boot like fps acorn replay running on a mhz arm processor the arm is about slower than the arm does this in software off a standard cd rom bit colour at about the same resolution so what if the computer only has bit colour support real time dithering too the d o is supposed to have a couple of dsps the arm being used for housekeeping i m not sure how a centris mhz stacks up against the mhz arm in the do box obviously the arm is faster but how much a mhz arm xx should clock around arm mips say flat out depends really on the surrounding system and whether you are talking arm x or arm xx the latter has a cache and so is essential to run at this kind of speed with slower memory i ll stop saying things there cos i ll hopefully be working for arm after graduation mike ps don t pay heed to what reps from philips say if the d o doesn t beat the pants off di then i ll eat this postscript michael williams part ii computer science tripos mjw phx cam ac uk university of cambridge cymdeithas genedlaethol traddodiad troi teigrod mwythus ben i waered
comp.graphics	dicta australian pattern recognition society nd call for papers dicta nd conference on digital imaging computing techniques and applications location macquarie theatre macquarie university sydney date december dicta is the second biennial national conference of the australian pattern recognition society this event will provide an opportunity for any persons with an interest in computer vision digital image processing analysis and other aspects of pattern recognition to become informed about contemporary developments in the area to exchange ideas to establish contacts and to share details of their own work with others the following invited speakers will provide specialised presentations prof gabor t herman university of pennsylvania on medical imaging prof r m hodgson massey university new zealand on computer vision prof dominique juelin centre de morphologie mathematique paris on mathematical morphology prof john richards aust defence force academy canberra on remote sensing dr phillip k robertson csiro division of information technology canberra on interactive visualisation the conference will concentrate on but is not limited to the following areas of image processing computer vision and object recognition motion analysis morphology medical imaging fuzzy logic and neural networks image coding machine vision and robotics enhancement and restoration enhancement and restoration visualisation industrial applications software and hardware tools papers are sought for presentation at the conference and publication in the conference proceedings submission for peer review should consist of an extended abstract of words of doubled spaced text summarizing the technical aspects of the paper and any results that will be quoted final papers should be limited to no more than pages of text and illustrations in camera ready form four copies of the abstract should be sent to dicta c tony adriaansen csiro division of wool technology po box ryde nsw australia important dates abstract due th june acceptance notified th august final paper due th october social program the conference dinner will be held on the thursday th of december other social activities are being arranged situated on a beautiful harbour sydney has many and varied places of interest the opera house and harbour bridge are just two of the well known landmarks harbour cruises city tours to the blue mountains run daily we can provide further information on request accommodation accommodation within min walking distance is available ranging from college style to star hotel facilities information will be supplied upon request conference fees before th sep after th sep aprs members a a aprs student members a a others a a conference dinner a on dec th advanced registration name organisation address phone fax email i am a current member of aprs i am not a current member of aprs please send me information on accommodation i enclose a cheque for please send the above form to dicta c tony adriaansen csiro division of wool technology po box ryde nsw australia the cheques should be made payable to dicta for further information contact tony adriaansen athula ginigie email dicta ee uts edu au aprs is a member of iapp the international association for pattern recognition inc an affiliated member of the international federation for information processing
comp.graphics	re so what is the fastest windows video c in article apr trentu ca ayounes trentu ca amro younes trent university c c peterborough on canada k j b writes i have the ati graphics ultra pro eisa version i must admit it has received bad press but that was due to the faulty drivers it had pc magazine seems to be impressed with the ati card in their most recent reviews in the april th issue they rate the ati graphics ultra pro eisa version as their editor s choice they noted that the drivers had improved since they tested the isa version in january cuyler
comp.graphics	re weitek p jgreen amber joe green writes anyone know about the weitek p graphics chip do you have weitek s address phone number i d like to get some information about this chip yes i am very interested in this chip please follow up or email bill egan cavalier graphics houston texas email cavalier blkbox com
comp.graphics	jpeg image compression frequently asked questions archive name jpeg faq last modified april this faq article discusses jpeg image compression suggestions for additions and clarifications are welcome new since version of april new versions of image archiver and pmjpeg for os this article includes the following sections what is jpeg why use jpeg when should i use jpeg and when should i stick with gif how well does jpeg compress images what are good quality settings for jpeg where can i get jpeg software a canned software viewers etc b source code what s all this hoopla about color quantization how does jpeg work what about lossless jpeg why all the argument about file formats how do i recognize which file format i have and what do i do about it what about arithmetic coding does loss accumulate with repeated compression decompression what are some rules of thumb for converting gif images to jpeg sections are basic info that every jpeg user needs to know sections are advanced info for the curious this article is posted every weeks you can always find the latest version in the news answers archive at rtfm mit edu by ftp fetch pub usenet news answers jpeg faq or if you don t have ftp send e mail to mail server rtfm mit edu with body send usenet news answers jpeg faq many other faq articles are also stored in this archive for more instructions on use of the archive send e mail to the same address with the words help and index no quotes on separate lines if you don t get a reply the server may be misreading your return address add a line such as path myname mysite to specify your correct e mail address to reply to what is jpeg jpeg pronounced jay peg is a standardized image compression mechanism jpeg stands for joint photographic experts group the original name of the committee that wrote the standard jpeg is designed for compressing either full color or gray scale digital images of natural real world scenes it does not work so well on non realistic images such as cartoons or line drawings jpeg does not handle black and white bit per pixel images nor does it handle motion picture compression standards for compressing those types of images are being worked on by other committees named jbig and mpeg respectively jpeg is lossy meaning that the image you get out of decompression isn t quite identical to what you originally put in the algorithm achieves much of its compression by exploiting known limitations of the human eye notably the fact that small color details aren t perceived as well as small details of light and dark thus jpeg is intended for compressing images that will be looked at by humans if you plan to machine analyze your images the small errors introduced by jpeg may be a problem for you even if they are invisible to the eye a useful property of jpeg is that the degree of lossiness can be varied by adjusting compression parameters this means that the image maker can trade off file size against output image quality you can make extremely small files if you don t mind poor quality this is useful for indexing image archives making thumbnail views or icons etc etc conversely if you aren t happy with the output quality at the default compression setting you can jack up the quality until you are satisfied and accept lesser compression why use jpeg there are two good reasons to make your image files smaller and to store bit per pixel color data instead of bit per pixel data making image files smaller is a big win for transmitting files across networks and for archiving libraries of images being able to compress a mbyte full color file down to kbytes or so makes a big difference in disk space and transmission time if you are comparing gif and jpeg the size ratio is more like four to one more details below if your viewing software doesn t support jpeg directly you ll have to convert jpeg to some other format for viewing or manipulating images even with a jpeg capable viewer it takes longer to decode and view a jpeg image than to view an image of a simpler format gif for instance thus using jpeg is essentially a time space tradeoff you give up some time in order to store or transmit an image more cheaply it s worth noting that when network or phone transmission is involved the time savings from transferring a shorter file can be much greater than the extra time to decompress the file i ll let you do the arithmetic yourself the other reason why jpeg will gradually replace gif as a standard usenet posting format is that jpeg can store full color information bits pixel million colors instead of or less or fewer colors if you have only bit display hardware then this may not seem like much of an advantage to you within a couple of years though bit gif will look as obsolete as black and white macpaint format does today furthermore for reasons detailed in section jpeg is far more useful than gif for exchanging images among people with widely varying color display hardware hence jpeg is considerably more appropriate than gif for use as a usenet posting standard when should i use jpeg and when should i stick with gif jpeg is not going to displace gif entirely for some types of images gif is superior in image quality file size or both one of the first things to learn about jpeg is which kinds of images to apply it to as a rule of thumb jpeg is superior to gif for storing full color or gray scale images of realistic scenes that means scanned photographs and similar material jpeg is superior even if you don t have bit display hardware and it is a lot superior if you do see section for details gif does significantly better on images with only a few distinct colors such as cartoons and line drawings in particular large areas of pixels that are all exactly the same color are compressed very efficiently indeed by gif jpeg can t squeeze these files as much as gif does without introducing visible defects this sort of image is best kept in gif form in particular single color borders are quite cheap in gif files but they should be avoided in jpeg files jpeg also has a hard time with very sharp edges a row of pure black pixels adjacent to a row of pure white pixels for example sharp edges tend to come out blurred unless you use a very high quality setting again this sort of thing is not found in scanned photographs but it shows up fairly often in gif files borders overlaid text etc the blurriness is particularly objectionable with text that s only a few pixels high if you have a gif with a lot of small size overlaid text don t jpeg it computer drawn images ray traced scenes for instance usually fall between scanned images and cartoons in terms of complexity the more complex and subtly rendered the image the more likely that jpeg will do well on it the same goes for semi realistic artwork fantasy drawings and such plain black and white two level images should never be converted to jpeg you need at least about gray levels before jpeg is useful for gray scale images it should also be noted that gif is lossless for gray scale images of up to levels while jpeg is not if you have an existing library of gif images you may wonder whether you should convert them to jpeg you will lose a little image quality if you do section which argues that jpeg image quality is superior to gif only applies if both formats start from a full color original if you start from a gif you ve already irretrievably lost a great deal of information jpeg can only make things worse however the disk space savings may justify converting anyway this is a decision you ll have to make for yourself if you do convert a gif library to jpeg see section for hints be prepared to leave some images in gif format since some gifs will not convert well how well does jpeg compress images pretty darn well here are some sample file sizes for an image i have handy a x full color image of a ship in a harbor the first three files are for comparison purposes the rest were created with the free jpeg software described in section b file size in bytes comments ship ppm original file in ppm format no compression bits or bytes per pixel plus a few bytes overhead ship ppm z ppm file passed through unix compress compress doesn t accomplish a lot you ll note other text oriented compressors give similar results ship gif converted to gif with ppmquant fs ppmtogif most of the savings is the result of losing color info gif saves bits pixel not see sec ship jpg cjpeg q highest useful quality setting this is indistinguishable from the bit original at least to my nonprofessional eyeballs ship jpg cjpeg q default setting you have to look mighty darn close to distinguish this from the original even with both on screen at once ship jpg cjpeg q this has slight defects if you know what to look for you could tell it s been jpeged without seeing the original still as good image quality as many recent postings in usenet pictures groups ship jpg cjpeg q jpeg s characteristic blockiness becomes apparent at this setting djpeg blocksmooth helps some still i ve seen plenty of usenet postings that were of poorer image quality than this ship jpg o cjpeg q optimize optimize cuts table overhead blocky but perfectly satisfactory for preview or indexing purposes note that this file is tiny the compression ratio from the original is in this case jpeg can make a file that s a factor of four or five smaller than a gif of comparable quality the q file is every bit as good as the gif better if you have a full color display this seems to be a typical ratio for real world scenes what are good quality settings for jpeg most jpeg compressors let you pick a file size vs image quality tradeoff by selecting a quality setting there seems to be widespread confusion about the meaning of these settings quality does not mean keep of the information as some have claimed the quality scale is purely arbitrary it s not a percentage of anything the name of the game in using jpeg is to pick the lowest quality setting smallest file size that decompresses into an image indistinguishable from the original this setting will vary from one image to another and from one observer to another but here are some rules of thumb the default quality setting q is very often the best choice this setting is about the lowest you can go without expecting to see defects in a typical image try q first if you see defects then go up except for experimental purposes never go above q saying q will produce a file two or three times as large as q but of hardly any better quality if the image was less than perfect quality to begin with you might be able to go down to q without objectionable degradation on the other hand you might need to go to a higher quality setting to avoid further degradation the second case seems to apply much of the time when converting gifs to jpeg the default q is about right for compressing bit images but q to is usually better for converting gifs see section for more info if you want a very small file say for preview or indexing purposes and are prepared to tolerate large defects a q setting in the range of to is about right q or so may be amusing as op art note the quality settings discussed in this article apply to the free jpeg software described in section b and to many programs based on it other jpeg implementations such as image alchemy may use a completely different quality scale some programs don t even provide a numeric scale just high medium low style choices where can i get jpeg software most of the programs described in this section are available by ftp if you don t know how to use ftp see the faq article how to find sources if you don t have direct access to ftp read about ftpmail servers in the same article that article appears regularly in news answers or you can get it by sending e mail to mail server rtfm mit edu with send usenet news answers finding sources in the body the anonymous ftp list faq may also be helpful it s usenet news answers ftp list faq in the news answers archive note this list changes constantly if you have a copy more than a couple months old get the latest jpeg faq from the news answers archive a if you are looking for canned software viewers etc the first part of this list is system specific programs that only run on one kind of system if you don t see what you want for your machine check out the portable jpeg software described at the end of the list note that this list concentrates on free and shareware programs that you can obtain over internet but some commercial programs are listed too x windows john bradley s free xv version and up is an excellent viewer for jpeg gif and other image formats it s available for ftp from export lcs mit edu or ftp cis upenn edu the file is called xv tar z where is the version number currently it is located in the contrib directory on export or the pub xv directory at upenn xv reduces all images to bits internally which means it s not a real good choice if you have a bit display you ll still get only bit color also you shouldn t use xv to convert full color images to jpeg because they ll get color quantized first but xv is a fine tool for converting gif and other bit images to jpeg caution there is a glitch in versions and earlier be sure to check the save at normal size checkbox when saving a jpeg file or the file will be blurry another good choice for x windows is john cristy s free imagemagick package also available from export lcs mit edu file contrib imagemagick tar z this package handles many image processing and conversion tasks the imagemagick viewer handles bit displays correctly for colormapped displays it does better though slower color quantization than xv or the basic free jpeg software both of the above are large complex packages if you just want a simple image viewer try xloadimage or xli xloadimage supports jpeg in its latest release xloadimage is free and available from export lcs mit edu file contrib xloadimage tar z xli is a variant version of xloadimage said by its fans to be somewhat faster and more robust than the original the current xli is indeed faster and more robust than the current xloadimage at least with respect to jpeg files because it has the ijg v decoder while xloadimage is using a hacked over v the next xloadimage release will fix this xli is also free and available from export lcs mit edu file contrib xli tar z both programs are said to do the right thing with bit displays ms dos this covers plain dos for windows or os programs see the next headings one good choice is eric praetzel s free dvpeg which views jpeg and gif files the current version a is available by ftp from sunee uwaterloo ca file pub jpeg viewers dvpeg a zip this is a good basic viewer that works on either or machines the user interface is not flashy but it s functional another freeware jpeg gif tga viewer is mohammad rezaei s hiview the current version is available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics hv zip hiview requires a or better cpu and a vcpi compatible memory manager qemm and max work windows and os do not hiview is currently the fastest viewer for images that are no bigger than your screen for larger images it scales the image down to fit on the screen rather than using panning scrolling as most viewers do you may or may not prefer this approach but there s no denying that it slows down loading of large images considerably note installation is a bit tricky read the directions carefully a shareware alternative is colorview for dos this is easier to install than either of the two freeware alternatives its user interface is also much spiffier looking although personally i find it harder to use more keystrokes inconsistent behavior it is faster than dvpeg but a little slower than hiview at least on my hardware for images larger than screen size dvpeg and colorview seem to be about the same speed and both are faster than hiview the current version is available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics dcview zip requires a vesa graphics driver if you don t have one look in vesadrv zip or vesa tsr zip from the same directory many recent pcs have a built in vesa driver so don t try to load a vesa driver unless colorview complains that the driver is missing a second shareware alternative is fullview which has been kicking around the net for a while but i don t know any stable archive location for it the current rather old version is inferior to the above viewers anyway the author tells me that a new version of fullview will be out shortly and it will be submitted to the simtel archives at that time the well known gif viewer compushow cshow supports jpeg in its latest revision a however cshow s jpeg implementation isn t very good it s slow about half the speed of the above viewers and image quality is poor except on hi color displays too bad it d have been nice to see a good jpeg capability in cshow shareware available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos gif cshw a zip due to the remarkable variety of pc graphics hardware any one of these viewers might not work on your particular machine if you can t get any of them to work you ll need to use one of the following conversion programs to convert jpeg to gif then view with your favorite gif viewer if you have hi color hardware don t use gif as the intermediate format try to find a targa capable viewer instead vpic is reputed to do the right thing with hi color displays the independent jpeg group s free jpeg converters are ftpable from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics jpeg zip or jpeg zip if you have a and extended memory these files are dos compilations of the free source code described in section b they will convert jpeg to and from gif targa and ppm formats handmade software offers free jpeg gif conversion tools gif jpg jpg gif these are slow and are limited to conversion to and from gif format in particular you can t get bit color output from a jpeg the major advantage of these tools is that they will read and write hsi s proprietary jpeg format as well as the usenet standard jfif format since hsi format files are rather widespread on bbses this is a useful capability version of these tools is free prior versions were shareware get it from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics gif jpg zip note do not use hsi format for files to be posted on internet since it is not readable on non pc platforms handmade software also has a shareware image conversion and manipulation package image alchemy this will translate jpeg files both jfif and hsi formats to and from many other image formats it can also display images a demo version of image alchemy version is available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics alch zip note about simtel the internet s key archive site for pc related programs is simtel full name wsmr simtel army mil simtel runs a non unix system with weird directory names where this document refers to directory eg msdos graphics at simtel that really means pd msdos graphics if you are not physically on milnet you should expect rather slow ftp transfer rates from simtel there are several internet sites that maintain copies mirrors of the simtel archives most ftp users should go to one of the mirror sites instead a popular usa mirror site is oak oakland edu which keeps simtel files in eg pub msdos graphics if you have no ftp capability you can retrieve files from simtel by e mail see informational postings in comp archives msdos announce to find out how if you are outside the usa consult the same newsgroup to learn where your nearest simtel mirror is microsoft windows there are several windows programs capable of displaying jpeg images windows viewers are generally slower than dos viewers on the same hardware due to windows system overhead note that you can run the dos conversion programs described above inside a windows dos window the newest entry is winecj which is free and extremely fast version is available from ftp rahul net file pub bryanw pc jpeg wecj zip requires windows and or more colors mode this is a no frills viewer with the bad habit of hogging the machine completely while it decodes and the image quality is noticeably worse than other viewers but it s so fast you ll use it anyway at least for previewing jview is freeware fairly fast has good on line help and can write out the decompressed image in windows bmp format but it can t create new jpeg files and it doesn t view gifs jview also lacks some other useful features of the shareware viewers such as brightness adjustment but it s an excellent basic viewer the current version is available from ftp cica indiana edu file pub pc win desktop jview zip mirrors of this archive can be found at some other internet sites including wuarchive wustl edu winjpeg shareware displays jpeg gif targa tiff and bmp image files it can write all of these formats too so it can be used as a converter it has some other nifty features including color balance adjustment and slideshow the current version is available from simtel and mirror sites see note above file msdos windows winjp zip this is a slow compatible version if you register you ll get the only version which is roughly faster colorview is another shareware entry this was an early and promising contender but it has not been updated in some time and at this point it has no real advantages over winjpeg if you want to try it anyway the current version is available from ftp cica indiana edu file pub pc win desktop cview zip i understand that a new version will be appearing once the authors are finished with colorview for dos dvpeg see dos heading also works under windows but only in full screen mode not in a window os the following files are available from hobbes nmsu edu note check pub uploads for more recent versions the hobbes moderator is not very fast about moving uploads into their permanent directories pub os x graphics jpegv zip bit version of free ijg conversion programs version pub os all graphics jpeg zip bit version of same for os x pub os x graphics imgarc zip image archiver image conversion viewing with pm graphical interface strong on conversion functions viewing is a bit weaker shareware pub os x graphics pmjpeg zip pmjpeg os x port of winjpeg a popular viewer for windows see description in windows section shareware pub os x graphics pmview zip pmview jpeg gif bmp viewer gif viewing very fast jpeg viewing fast if you have huge amounts of ram otherwise about the same speed as the above programs strong bit display support shareware macintosh most mac jpeg programs rely on apple s jpeg implementation which is part of the quicktime system extension so you need to have quicktime installed to use quicktime you need a or better cpu and you need to be running system or later if you re running system you must also install the bit quickdraw extension this is built in on system you can get quicktime by ftp from ftp apple com file dts mac quicktime quicktime hqx as of this file contains quicktime which is better than qt in several ways with respect to jpeg it is marginally faster and considerably less prone to crash when fed a corrupt jpeg file however some applications seem to have compatibility problems with qt mac users should keep in mind that quicktime s jpeg format pict jpeg is not the same as the usenet standard jfif jpeg format see section for details if you post images on usenet make sure they are in jfif format most of the programs mentioned below can generate either format the first choice is probably jpegview a free program for viewing images that are in jfif format pict jpeg format or gif format it also can convert between the two jpeg formats the current version is a big improvement over prior versions get it from sumex aim stanford edu file info mac app jpeg view hqx requires system and quicktime on bit displays jpegview usually produces the best color image quality of all the currently available mac jpeg viewers jpegview can view large images in much less memory than other mac viewers in fact it s the only one that can deal with jpeg images much over x pixels on a typical mb mac given a large image jpegview automatically scales it down to fit on the screen rather than presenting scroll bars like most other viewers you can zoom in on any desired portion though some people like this behavior some don t overall jpegview s user interface is very well thought out gifconverter a shareware image viewer converter supports jfif and pict jpeg as well as gif and several other image formats the latest version is get it from sumex aim stanford edu file info mac art gif gif converter hqx requires system or later gifconverter is not better than jpegview as a plain jpeg gif viewer but it has much more extensive image manipulation and format conversion capabilities so you may find it worth its shareware fee if you do a lot of playing around with images also the newest version of gifconverter can load and save jfif images without quicktime so it is your best bet if your machine is too old to run quicktime but it s faster with quicktime note if gifconverter runs out of memory trying to load a large jpeg try converting the file to gif with jpeg convert then viewing the gif version jpeg convert a mac version of the free ijg jpeg conversion utilities is available from sumex aim stanford edu file info mac app jpeg convert hqx this will run on any mac but it only does file conversion not viewing you can use it in conjunction with any gif viewer previous versions of this faq recommended imagery jpeg v a jpeg gif converter based on an old version of the ijg code if you are using this program you definitely should replace it with jpeg convert apple s free program pictpixie can view images in jfif quicktime jpeg and gif format and can convert between these formats you can get pictpixie from ftp apple com file dts mac quicktime qt stuff pictpixie hqx requires quicktime pictpixie was intended as a developer s tool and it s really not the best choice unless you like to fool around with quicktime some of its drawbacks are that it requires lots of memory it produces relatively poor color image quality on anything less than a bit display and it has a relatively unfriendly user interface worse pictpixie is an unsupported program meaning it has some minor bugs that apple does not intend to fix there is an old version of pictpixie called pictcompressor floating around the net if you have this you should trash it as it s even buggier also the quicktime starter kit includes a much cleaned up descendant of pictpixie called picture compressor note that picture compressor is not free and may not be distributed on the net storm technology s picture decompress is a free jpeg viewer converter this rather old program is inferior to the above programs in many ways but it will run without system or quicktime so you may be forced to use it on older systems it does need bit quickdraw so really old machines can t use it you can get it from sumex aim stanford edu file info mac app picture decompress hqx you must set the file type of a downloaded image file to jpeg to allow picture decompress to open it if your machine is too old to run bit quickdraw a mac plus for instance gifconverter is your only choice for single program jpeg viewing if you don t want to pay for gifconverter use jpeg convert and a free gif viewer more and more commercial mac applications are supporting jpeg although not all can deal with the usenet standard jfif format adobe photoshop version or later can read and write jfif format jpeg files use the jpeg plug in from the acquire menu you must set the file type of a downloaded jpeg file to jpeg to allow photoshop to recognize it amiga most programs listed in this section are stored in the aminet archive at amiga physik unizh ch there are many mirror sites of this archive and you should try to use the closest one in the usa a good choice is wuarchive wustl edu look under mirrors amiga physik unizh ch hamlab plus is an excellent jpeg viewer converter as well as being a general image manipulation tool it s cheap shareware and can read several formats besides jpeg the current version is a demo version is available from amiga physik unizh ch and mirror sites file amiga gfx edit hamlab d lha the demo version will crop images larger than x but it is otherwise fully functional rend shareware is an image renderer that can display jpeg ilbm and gif images the program can be used to create animations even capturing frames on the fly from rendering packages like lightwave the current version is available from amiga physik unizh ch and mirror sites file amiga os gfx rend lha note although this directory is supposedly for amigados programs the program will also run under amigados or viewtek is a free jpeg ilbm gif anim viewer the current version is available from amiga physik unizh ch and mirror sites file amiga gfx show viewtek lha if you re willing to spend real money there are several commercial packages that support jpeg two are written by thomas krehbiel the author of rend and viewtek these are cinemorph a standalone image morphing package and imagefx an impressive bit image capture conversion editing painting effects and prepress package that also includes cinemorph both are distributed by great valley products art department professional adpro from asdg inc is the most widely used commercial image manipulation software for amigas imagemaster from black belt systems is another well regarded commercial graphics package with jpeg support the free ijg jpeg software is available compiled for amigas from amiga physik unizh ch and mirror sites in directory amiga gfx conv file amigajpegv lha these programs convert jpeg to from ppm gif targa formats the amiga world is heavily infested with quick and dirty jpeg programs many based on an ancient beta test version of the free ijg jpeg software thanks to a certain magazine that published same on its disk of the month without so much as notifying the authors among these are augjpeg newamyjpeg vjpeg and probably others i have not even heard of in my opinion anything older than ijg version march is not worth the disk space it s stored on if you have such a program trash it and get something newer atari st the free ijg jpeg software is available compiled for atari st tt etc from atari archive umich edu file atari graphics jpeg bin zoo these programs convert jpeg to from ppm gif targa formats i have not heard of any free or shareware jpeg capable viewer for ataris but surely there must be one by now pointers appreciated acorn archimedes changefsi supplied with risc os version can convert from and view jpeg jfif format provision is also made to convert images to jpeg although this must be done from the cli rather than by double clicking recent versions since of the shareware program translator can handle jpeg along with about other image formats while older versions can be found on some archimedes bboards the current version is only available by registering with the author john kortink nutterbrink wj enschede the netherlands price dutch guilders about or pounds there s also a commercial product called jpeg which provides jpeg read write functionality and direct jpeg viewing as well as a host of other image format conversion and processing options this is more expensive but not necessarily better than the above programs contact dt software freepost cambridge uk tel portable software for almost any system if none of the above fits your situation you can obtain and compile the free jpeg conversion software described in b you ll also need a viewer program if your display is bits or less any gif viewer will do fine if you have a display with more color capability try to find a viewer that can read targa or ppm bit image files there are numerous commercial jpeg offerings with more popping up every day i recommend that you not spend money on one of these unless you find the available free or shareware software vastly too slow in that case purchase a hardware assisted product ask pointed questions about whether the product complies with the final jpeg standard and about whether it can handle the jfif file format many of the earliest commercial releases are not and never will be compatible with anyone else s files b if you are looking for source code to work with free portable c code for jpeg compression is available from the independent jpeg group which i lead a package containing our source code documentation and some small test files is available from several places the official archive site for this source code is ftp uu net or look under directory graphics jpeg the current release is jpegsrc v tar z this is a compressed tar file don t forget to retrieve in binary mode you can retrieve this file by ftp or uucp if you are on a pc and don t know how to cope with tar z format you may prefer zip format which you can find at simtel and mirror sites see note above file msdos graphics jpegsrc zip this file will also be available on compuserve in the graphsupport forum go pics library as jpsrc zip if you have no ftp access you can retrieve the source from your nearest comp sources misc archive version appeared as issues of volume if you don t know how to retrieve comp sources misc postings see the faq article how to find sources referred to at the top of section the free jpeg code provides conversion between jpeg jfif format and image files in gif pbmplus ppm pgm utah rle and truevision targa file formats the core compression and decompression modules can easily be reused in other programs such as image viewers the package is highly portable we have tested it on many machines ranging from pcs to crays we have released this software for both noncommercial and commercial use companies are welcome to use it as the basis for jpeg related products we do not ask a royalty although we do ask for an acknowledgement in product literature see the readme file in the distribution for details we hope to make this software industrial quality although as with anything that s free we offer no warranty and accept no liability the independent jpeg group is a volunteer organization if you d like to contribute to improving our software you are welcome to join what s all this hoopla about color quantization most people don t have full color bit per pixel display hardware typical display hardware stores or fewer bits per pixel so it can display or fewer distinct colors at a time to display a full color image the computer must map the image into an appropriate set of representative colors this process is called color quantization this is something of a misnomer color selection would be a better term we re stuck with the standard usage though clearly color quantization is a lossy process it turns out that for most images the details of the color quantization algorithm have much more impact on the final image quality than do any errors introduced by jpeg except at the very lowest jpeg quality settings since jpeg is a full color format converting a color jpeg image for display on bit or less hardware requires color quantization this is true for all color jpegs even if you feed a or less color gif into jpeg what comes out of the decompressor is not colors but thousands of colors this happens because jpeg s lossiness affects each pixel a little differently so two pixels that started with identical colors will probably come out with slightly different colors each original color gets smeared into a group of nearby colors therefore quantization is always required to display a color jpeg on a colormapped display regardless of the image source the only way to avoid quantization is to ask for gray scale output incidentally because of this effect it s nearly meaningless to talk about the number of colors used by a jpeg image even if you attempted to count the number of distinct pixel values different jpeg decoders would give you different results because of roundoff error differences i occasionally see posted images described as color jpeg this tells me that the poster a hasn t read this faq and b probably converted the jpeg from a gif jpegs can be classified as color or gray scale just like photographs but number of colors just isn t a useful concept for jpeg on the other hand a gif image by definition has already been quantized to or fewer colors a gif does have a definite number of colors in its palette and the format doesn t allow more than palette entries for purposes of usenet picture distribution gif has the advantage that the sender precomputes the color quantization so recipients don t have to this is also the disadvantage of gif you re stuck with the sender s quantization if the sender quantized to a different number of colors than what you can display you have to re quantize resulting in much poorer image quality than if you had quantized once from a full color image furthermore if the sender didn t use a high quality color quantization algorithm you re out of luck for this reason jpeg offers the promise of significantly better image quality for all users whose machines don t match the sender s display hardware jpeg s full color image can be quantized to precisely match the user s display hardware furthermore you will be able to take advantage of future improvements in quantization algorithms there is a lot of active research in this area or purchase better display hardware to get a better view of jpeg images you already have with a gif you re stuck forevermore with what was sent it s also worth mentioning that many gif viewing programs include rather shoddy quantization routines if you view a color gif on a color ega display for example you are probably getting a much worse image than you need to this is partly an inevitable consequence of doing two color quantizations one to create the gif one to display it but often it s also due to sloppiness jpeg conversion programs will be forced to use high quality quantizers in order to get acceptable results at all and in normal use they will quantize directly to the number of colors to be displayed thus jpeg is likely to provide better results than the average gif program for low color resolution displays as well as high resolution ones finally an ever growing number of people have better than bit display hardware already bit hi color pc displays true bit displays on workstations and macintoshes etc for these people gif is already obsolete as it cannot represent an image to the full capabilities of their display jpeg images can drive these displays much more effectively thus jpeg is an all around better choice than gif for representing images in a machine independent fashion how does jpeg work the buzz words to know are chrominance subsampling discrete cosine transforms coefficient quantization and huffman or arithmetic entropy coding this article s long enough already so i m not going to say more than that here for technical information see the comp compression faq this is available from the news answers archive at rtfm mit edu in files pub usenet news answers compression faq part if you need help in using the news answers archive see the top of this article what about lossless jpeg there s a great deal of confusion on this subject the jpeg committee did define a truly lossless compression algorithm i e one that guarantees the final output is bit for bit identical to the original input however this lossless mode has almost nothing in common with the regular lossy jpeg algorithm and it offers much less compression at present very few implementations of lossless jpeg exist and all of them are commercial saying q to the free jpeg software does not get you a lossless image what it does get rid of is deliberate information loss in the coefficient quantization step there is still a good deal of information loss in the color subsampling step with the v free jpeg code you can also say sample x to turn off subsampling keep in mind that many commercial jpeg implementations cannot cope with the resulting file even with both quantization and subsampling turned off the regular jpeg algorithm is not lossless because it is subject to roundoff errors in various calculations the maximum error is a few counts in any one pixel value it s highly unlikely that this could be perceived by the human eye but it might be a concern if you are doing machine processing of an image at this minimum loss setting regular jpeg produces files that are perhaps half the size of an uncompressed bit per pixel image true lossless jpeg provides roughly the same amount of compression but it guarantees bit for bit accuracy if you have an application requiring lossless storage of images with less than bits per pixel per color component you may want to look into the jbig bilevel image compression standard this performs better than jpeg lossless on such images jpeg lossless is superior to jbig on images with or more bits per pixel furthermore jpeg is public domain at least with a huffman back end while the jbig techniques are heavily covered by patents why all the argument about file formats strictly speaking jpeg refers only to a family of compression algorithms it does not refer to a specific image file format the jpeg committee was prevented from defining a file format by turf wars within the international standards organizations since we can t actually exchange images with anyone else unless we agree on a common file format this leaves us with a problem in the absence of official standards a number of jpeg program writers have just gone off to do their own thing and as a result their programs aren t compatible with anybody else s the closest thing we have to a de facto standard jpeg format is some work that s been coordinated by people at c cube microsystems they have defined two jpeg based file formats jfif jpeg file interchange format a low end format that transports pixels and not much else tiff jpeg aka tiff an extension of the aldus tiff format tiff is a high end format that will let you record just about everything you ever wanted to know about an image and a lot more besides tiff is a lot more complex than jfif and may well prove less transportable because different vendors have historically implemented slightly different and incompatible subsets of tiff it s not likely that adding jpeg to the mix will do anything to improve this situation both of these formats were developed with input from all the major vendors of jpeg related products it s reasonably likely that future commercial products will adhere to one or both standards i believe that usenet should adopt jfif as the replacement for gif in picture postings jfif is simpler than tiff and is available now the tiff spec has only recently been officially adopted and it is still unusably vague on some crucial details even when tiff jpeg is well defined the jfif format is likely to be a widely supported lowest common denominator tiff jpeg files may never be as transportable a particular case that people may be interested in is apple s quicktime software for the macintosh quicktime uses a jfif compatible format wrapped inside the mac specific pict structure conversion between jfif and quicktime jpeg is pretty straightforward and several mac programs are available to do it see mac portion of section a if you have an editor that handles binary files you can strip a quicktime jpeg pict down to jfif by hand see section for details another particular case is handmade software s programs gif jpg jpg gif and image alchemy these programs are capable of reading and writing jfif format by default though they write a proprietary format developed by hsi this format is not readable by any non hsi programs and should not be used for usenet postings use the j switch to get jfif output this applies to old versions of these programs the current releases emit jfif format by default you still should be careful not to post hsi format files unless you want to get flamed by people on non pc platforms how do i recognize which file format i have and what do i do about it if you have an alleged jpeg file that your software won t read it s likely to be hsi format or some other proprietary jpeg based format you can tell what you have by inspecting the first few bytes of the file a jfif standard file will start with the characters hex ff d ff e followed by two variable bytes often hex followed by jfif if you see ff d at the start but not the rest of it you may have a raw jpeg file this is probably decodable as is by jfif software it s worth a try anyway hsi files start with hsi you re out of luck unless you have hsi software portions of the file may look like plain jpeg data but they won t decompress properly with non hsi programs a macintosh pict file if jpeg compressed will have a couple hundred bytes of header followed by a jfif header scan for jfif strip off everything before the ff d and you should be able to read it anything else it s a proprietary format or not jpeg at all if you are lucky the file may consist of a header and a raw jpeg data stream if you can identify the start of the jpeg data stream look for ff d try stripping off everything before that in uuencoded usenet postings the characteristic jfif pattern is begin line m c x whereas uuencoded hsi files will start with begin line m i if you learn to check for the former you can save yourself the trouble of downloading non jfif files what about arithmetic coding the jpeg spec defines two different back end modules for the final output of compressed data either huffman coding or arithmetic coding is allowed the choice has no impact on image quality but arithmetic coding usually produces a smaller compressed file on typical images arithmetic coding produces a file or percent smaller than huffman coding all the file size numbers previously cited are for huffman coding unfortunately the particular variant of arithmetic coding specified by the jpeg standard is subject to patents owned by ibm at t and mitsubishi thus you cannot legally use arithmetic coding unless you obtain licenses from these companies the fair use doctrine allows people to implement and test the algorithm but actually storing any images with it is dubious at best at least in the short run i recommend that people not worry about arithmetic coding the space savings isn t great enough to justify the potential legal hassles in particular arithmetic coding should not be used for any images to be exchanged on usenet there is some small chance that the legal situation may change in the future stay tuned for further details does loss accumulate with repeated compression decompression it would be nice if having compressed an image with jpeg you could decompress it manipulate it crop off a border say and recompress it without any further image degradation beyond what you lost initially unfortunately this is not the case in general recompressing an altered image loses more information though usually not as much as was lost the first time around the next best thing would be that if you decompress an image and recompress it without changing it then there is no further loss i e you get an identical jpeg file even this is not true at least not with the current free jpeg software it s essentially a problem of accumulation of roundoff error if you repeatedly compress and decompress the image will eventually degrade to where you can see visible changes from the first generation output it usually takes many such cycles to get visible change one of the things on our to do list is to see if accumulation of error can be avoided or limited but i am not optimistic about it in any case the most that could possibly be guaranteed would be that compressing the unmodified full color output of djpeg at the original quality setting would introduce no further loss even such simple changes as cropping off a border could cause further roundoff error degradation if you re wondering why it s because the pixel block boundaries move if you cropped off only multiples of pixels you might be safe but that s a mighty limited capability the bottom line is that jpeg is a useful format for archival storage and transmission of images but you don t want to use it as an intermediate format for sequences of image manipulation steps use a lossless format ppm rle tiff etc while working on the image then jpeg it when you are ready to file it away aside from avoiding degradation you will save a lot of compression decompression time this way what are some rules of thumb for converting gif images to jpeg as stated earlier you will lose some amount of image information if you convert an existing gif image to jpeg if you can obtain the original full color data the gif was made from it s far better to make a jpeg from that but if you need to save space and have only the gif to work from here are some suggestions for getting maximum space savings with minimum loss of quality the first rule when converting a gif library is to look at each jpeg to make sure you are happy with it before throwing away the corresponding gif that will give you a chance to re do the conversion with a higher quality setting if necessary some gifs may be better left as gifs as explained in section in particular cartoon type gifs with sixteen or fewer colors don t convert well you may find that a jpeg file of reasonable quality will be larger than the gif so check the sizes too experience to date suggests that large high visual quality gifs are the best candidates for conversion to jpeg they chew up the most storage so offer the most potential savings and they convert to jpeg with least degradation don t waste your time converting any gif much under kbytes also don t expect jpeg files converted from gifs to be as small as those created directly from full color originals to maintain image quality you may have to let the converted files be as much as twice as big as straight through jpeg files would be i e shoot for or rd the size of the gif file not th as suggested in earlier comparisons many people have developed an odd habit of putting a large constant color border around a gif image while useless this was nearly free in terms of storage cost in gif files it is not free in jpeg files and the sharp border boundary can create visible artifacts ghost edges do yourself a favor and crop off any border before jpeging if you are on an x windows system xv s manual and automatic cropping functions are a very painless way to do this cjpeg s default q setting of is appropriate for full color input but for gif inputs q settings of to often seem to be necessary to avoid image degradation if you apply smoothing as suggested below the higher q setting may not be necessary color gifs of photographs or complex artwork are usually dithered to fool your eye into seeing more than the colors that gif can actually store if you enlarge the image you will see that adjacent pixels are often of significantly different colors at normal size the eye averages these pixels together to produce the illusion of an intermediate color value the trouble with dithering is that to jpeg it looks like high spatial frequency color noise and jpeg can t compress noise very well the resulting jpeg file is both larger and of lower image quality than what you would have gotten from jpeging the original full color image if you had it to get around this you want to smooth the gif image before compression smoothing averages together nearby pixels thus approximating the color that you thought you saw anyway and in the process getting rid of the rapid color changes that give jpeg trouble appropriate use of smoothing will often let you avoid using a high q factor thus further reducing the size of the compressed file while still obtaining a better looking output image than you d get without smoothing with the v free jpeg software or products based on it a simple smoothing capability is built in try smooth or so when converting gifs values of to seem to work well for high quality gifs heavy handed dithering may require larger smoothing factors if you can see regular fine scale patterns on the gif image even without enlargement then strong smoothing is definitely called for too large a smoothing factor will blur the output image which you don t want if you are an image processing wizard you can also do smoothing with a separate filtering program such as pnmconvol from the pbmplus package however cjpeg s built in smoother is a lot faster than pnmconvol the upshot of all this is that cjpeg quality smooth is probably a good starting point for converting gifs but if you really care about the image you ll want to check the results and maybe try a few other settings for more information about jpeg in general or the free jpeg software in particular contact the independent jpeg group at jpeg info uunet uu net tom lane organizer independent jpeg group internet tgl cs cmu edu bitnet tgl cs cmu edu carnegie
comp.graphics	re cview answers well the temp file thing creates an obvious problem it is impossible to use cview for viewing cd rom based picture collections and it is the only non windows viewer that works properly with my cirrus based bit vga
comp.graphics	re cview answers re majority of users not readding from floppy well how about those of us who have picture cd roms and would like to use cview because it is fast and it works well but can t because the moron lacked the foresight to create the temp file in the program s path not the current didrectory
comp.graphics	needed plotting package that does looking for a graphics cad or whatever package on a x unix box that will take a file with records like n a b p where n a count integer a entity a string b entity b string p type string and produce a networked graph with nodes represented with boxes or circles and the vertices represented by lines and the width of the line determined by n there would be a different line type for each type of vertice the boxes need to be identified with the entity s name the number of entities and vertices it would be nice if the tool minimized line cross overs and did a good job of layout i have looked in the faq for comp graphics and gnuplot without success any ideas would be appreciated thanks glen fullmer glen fullmer pts mot com for a successful technology reality must take precedence over public relations for nature cannot be fooled richard p feynman
comp.graphics	re video in out organization a world of information at your fingertips keywords in article toontown columbiasc ncr com craig toontown columbiasc ncr com craig s williamson writes i m getting ready to buy a multimedia workstation and would like a little advice i need a graphics card that will do video in and out under windows i was originally thinking of a targa but that doesn t work under windows what cards should i be looking into thanks craig to forgive is divine to be craig williamson an airhead is human craig williamson columbiasc ncr com balki bartokomas craig toontown columbiasc ncr com home perfect strangers craig you should still consider the targa i run windows on it all the time at work and it works fine i think all you need is the right driver josh west email mscrap halcyon com
comp.graphics	gl and fli specs can somebody point out to me where i can find the specs for gl and fli files found on pc s arthur qedbbs com arthur choung or qed arthur the qed bbs
comp.graphics	re ms windows graphics viewer check out image pals v from u lead until may special intro price it has the basic image processing tools for all major formats does screen grabbing and allows all your image files to be calalogged into a thumbnail database it s great don
comp.graphics	re ms windows screen grabber summary hi again many thanks to all the people who responded to my request for a ms windows screen grabber it proves to me again that the net is a wonderful thing so in summary there are two choices various screen grabber packages corel draw has one there are a couple on simtel and cica use the built in printscreen and alt printscreen functionality to paste the screen or window to the clipboard then paste the clipboard to your application cool again thanks for the info grant the ms windows newbie unix and x are my bag grant totten programmer analyst trent university peterborough ontario gtotten trentu ca phone fax a woman s place is in the wrong james thurber
comp.graphics	tiff next appsoft draw gif conversion okay all my friends are bitching at me that the map i made in appsoft draw can t be displayed in xv i checked it s true at least with version my readers on the next have very little trouble on it preview messes up the eps but does fine with the tiff and imageviewer a behaves with flying colors except it doesn t convert worth please is there any way i can convert this drw from appsoft on the next to something more reasonable like gif i have access to a sun and nextstep systems any good reliable conversion programs would be helpful please email i ll post responses if anyone wants me to please email that to yes i used alphachannel god i could choke steve jobs right now yes i know how to archie but tell me what to archie for also is there a way to convert to ps plain format imageviiewer turns out nothing recognizable terrychay small editorial rw r r tychay apr undernet tiff rw r r tychay apr undernet tiff z and not using gzip is it me or is there something wrong with this format
comp.graphics	d bitmap interpolation yesterday i wrote a program to do bilinear interpolation ala numerical recipes with the pbmplus libraries i m pretty happy with the results but i m looking for any already coded non linear interpolation schemes before i go ahead an try to write one any pointers dave disser um caen user services wealth is wasted disser engin umich edu chrysler center on the old ann arbor mi
comp.graphics	cd rom indexes available the file and contents listings for knowledge media resource library graphics knowledge media resource library audio are now available for anonymous ftp from cdrom com
comp.graphics	re so what is the fastest windows video c in article apr exu ericsson se ebuhcb ebu ericsson se writes in article apr trentu ca ayounes trentu ca amro younes trent university c c peterborough on canada k j b writes i have the ati graphics ultra pro eisa version i must admit it has received bad press but that was due to the faulty drivers it had pc magazine seems to be impressed with the ati card in their most recent reviews in the april th issue they rate the ati graphics ultra pro eisa version as their editor s choice they noted that the drivers had improved since they tested the isa version in january cuyler yeah they also gave it their editor s choice in the run down of graphics accelerators they tested in the previous issue which is why i bought and then returned mine the only conclusion i can come up with is that pc magazine has wildly different ways on determining the worthiness of a video card than i do david farley the university of chicago library east th street jrl dgf midway uchicago edu chicago illinois
comp.graphics	help need jpeg mpeg encod decode i am involve in a distant learning project and am in need of jpeg and mpeg encode decode source and object code this is a not for profit project that once completed i hope to release to other educational and institutional learning centers this project requires that true photographic images be sent over plain telephone lines in addition if there is a real good gui lib with d objects and all types of menu classes that can be use at both end of the transaction server and terminal end i would like to hear about it we recently posted an rfd announcing the otg open telematic group that will concern itself with the developement of such application and that it would incorporate naplps jpeg mpeg voice ivr fax sprites animation fli flc etc at present only dos and unix environment is being worked on and it our hope that we can generate enough interest where all the major platform can be accomodated via a plaform independent api toolkit sdk we are of the mind that it is about time that such project and group be form to deal with these issues we want to setup a repository where these files may be access such as simte and start putting together a otg faq if you have some or any information that in your opinion would be of interest to the otg community and you like to see included in our first faq please send it email to the address below thanks in advance ed p o box atlanta ga zyxel epimntl world std com ed pimentel gisatl fidonet org edimg willard atl ga us ed pimentel gatech kd nc vdbsan willard edimg emory uumind willard edimg willard s house bbs atlanta ga
comp.graphics	scanned grey to color equations a while back someone had several equations which could be used for changing f iltered grey scale images into one true color image this is possible because it s the same theory used by most color scanners i am not looking for the obv ious solution which is to buy a color scanner but what i do need is those equat ions becasue i am starting to write software which will automate the conversion process i would really appreciate it if someone would repost the equations unknowns thanks for the help
comp.graphics	pov tga s and speedstar i finally got a bit viewer for my povray generated tga files it was written in c by sean malloy and he kindly sent me a copy he wrote it for the same purpose to view tga files using his speedstar it only works with the speedstar and i cannot send copies since it is not my program i believe the author may release a version at a future time when the program is more developed he may or may not comment on this as he pleases thanks to all who were helpful regards jim nobles
comp.graphics	need algorithm for reading and displaying bitmap files i m making a customized paint program in dos and need an algorithm for reading bitmap files like gif pcx or bmp does anyone have such an algorithm i ve tried copying one out of a book for reading pcx format but it doesn t work i will take an algorithm for any format that can be created from windows paint thanks toni
comp.graphics	images of earth i am looking for some graphic images of earth shot from space preferably bit color but color gif s will do anyways if anyone knows an ftp site where i can find these i d greatly appreciate it if you could pass the information on thanks please send email ken huisman ken cs ualberta ca
comp.graphics	re sphere from points in article qkgbuinns n shelley u washington edu bolson carson u washington edu edward bolson writes given points non coplanar how does one find the sphere that is center and radius exactly fitting those points finding the circumcenter of a tetrahedron is discussed on page in contouring a guide to the analysis and display of spatial data by dave watson pergamon press isbn p each pair of tetrahedral vertices define a plane which is a perpendicular bisector of the line between that pair express each plane in the form ax by cz d and solve the set of simultaneous equations from any three of those planes that have a vertex in common all vertices are used the solution is the circumcenter dave watson internet watson maths uwa edu au department of mathematics the university of western australia tel nedlands wa australia fax
comp.graphics	paintprogram wanted excuse the sheer newbieness of this post but i am looking for a decent paintprogram which will save to various file formats bmp pcx etc etc via ftp freeware or shareware i would like to check out the available programs for little before i check out the commercial market thanks in advance for any help or direction you can give me daemon
comp.graphics	vesa as a graphics standard in the u ibm pc world how much of a standard has vesa become for svga graphics i know there are lots of graphics board companies out there as well as several graphics chips manufacturers are they adhering to the vesa standard and what effect is will the vesa local bus have on all of this anyone
comp.graphics	where s dmorf could anyone direct me to the ftp site where i can find the dos based morphing package called dmorf zip i had downloaded this file last week but the new dos crashed my hard drive and i lost it now i can t find the site where i got it from also are there any other morphing packages out for dos freeware or shareware thanks in advance barry egerter obelix gaul csd uwo ca author of wgt graphics toolkit for vga version now available turbo borland c or better joystick mouse graphics primitives non bgi power gif pcx data storage sprites multiway scrolling games bitmap warping resizing sb support fli egerter obelix gaul csd uwo ca
comp.graphics	re sphere from points i plan to post a summary of responses to this as soon as i have working code which i will also include the intersection of planes method looks best but my implementation based on a short article in graphics gems i doesn t work i may be misinterpreting of course i had avoided the simultaneous solution of the plane equations in favor of dot and cross products but the former may actually be better in either case a matrix determinant needs to be computed implicitly in the solution of linear equations to get the planes i was taking the midpoint of the line from say p to p and setting the normal as the normalized vector from p to p these just plugged into the formula in graphics gems however the resulting center point is only occasionally equidistant from all of my test points for different tests my matrix vector math is very rusty but it looks like i need to verify the formula or use the simultaneous equation solution which will require bringing in another routine i don t have but should be easy to find another method is to first find the center of the circle defined by sets of points and intersecting the normals from there this would also define the circle center however small numerical imprecisions would make the lines not intersect supposedly planes have to intersect in a unique point if they are not parallel ed thanks to all who answered so far ed bolson university of washington cardiovascular research bolson u washington edu preferred bolson max bitnet bolson milton u washington edu if you must
comp.graphics	sphere from points another method is to first find the center of the circle defined by sets of points and intersecting the normals from there this would also define the circle center however small numerical imprecisions would make the lines not intersect supposedly planes have to intersect in a unique point if they are not parallel having thought about this why don t you project the lines onto the d plane formed by the lines do an intersection calculation in the plane in d where you re guaranteed a unique solution unless they re parallel which won t happen in this case and then use parametric distance along the lines from the circle centres to determine the exact point of interest this bypasses the messy error propogation required to do the calculation in d hope i haven t put my foot in it again steve steven collins email steve crl hitachi co jp visiting computer graphics researcher phone hitachi central research lab tokyo fax
comp.graphics	re rumours about do in article apr rchland ibm com ricardo rchland vnet ibm com ricardo hernandez muchado writes in article apr mercury unt edu sean mcmains mcmains unt edu writes ricardo the animation playback to which lawrence was referring in an earlier post is plain old quicktime with the compact video codec i ve seen digitized video some of apple s early commercials to be precise running on a centris at about fps very nicely bit color depth i would expect that using the same algorithm a risc processor should be able to approach full screen full motion animation though as you ve implied the processor will be taxed more with highly dynamic material sean i don t want to get into a mini war by what i am going to say but i have to be a little bit skeptic about the performance you are claiming on the centris you ll see why please no flames i reserve those for c s m a i was in chicago in the last consumer electronics show and apple had a booth there i walked by and they were showing real time video capture using a radious or supermac card to digitize and make right on the spot quicktime movies i think the quicktime they were using was the old one that is in fact the current version it only came out in december they digitized a guy talking there in x xx something it played back quite nicely and in real time the guy then expanded the window resized to x by xx in y i think and the frame rate decreased enough to notice that it wasn t fps or about fps anymore it dropped to like fps then he increased it just a bit more and it dropped to fps then i asked him what mac he was using he was using a quadra don t know what model to do it and he was telling the guys there that the quicktime could play back at the same speed even on an lcii well i spoiled his claim so to say since a quadra mac was having a little bit of trouble and this wasn t even from the hardisk this was from memory my test movie was created at resolution it wasn t being scaled up scaling was a very cpu intensive operation with the original quicktime the current version has optimizations for ratios like but even so i m prepared to believe that the performance isn t as good as with playing back an actual movie i haven t done any numerical measurements for scaled playback lawrence d oliveiro fone computer services dept fax university of waikato electric mail ldo waikato ac nz hamilton new zealand s e gmt
comp.graphics	chaos editions idea internation directory of electronic arts i ve borrowed the version of this book from a friend holy moley what a wealth of contacts five hundred pages of information about electronic artists and organizations around the globe many have email addresses an up to the minute database of this information is also available on minitel the book s based in france are there any internet minitel gates the book is printed in french and english to have you or your organization listed in idea just send your information to annick bureaud idea rue falguiere paris france it s free to be listed in it i m not sure how widely distributed the book is or how much it costs i m not affiliated with them in any way i was just impressed by their collection of organizations and artists i highly encourage all involved in electronic media video music graphics animation etc to send in your entry and encourage them to make their database available on internet e ed stastny otis project end process sound news and arts po bx ftp sunsite unc edu pub multimedia pictures otis omaha ne projects otis email ed cwis unomaha edu ed sunsite unc edu
comp.graphics	re images of earth in apr kakwa ucs ualberta ca ken cs ualberta ca huisman kenneth m writes i am looking for some graphic images of earth shot from space preferably bit color but color gif s will do anyways if anyone knows an ftp site where i can find these i d greatly appreciate it if you could pass the information on thanks try ftp ing at pub info jpl nasa gov simple dir structure and ames arc nasa gov at pub space gif and pub space jpeg sorry only bits gifs and jpegs great piccy s though try the x gif files they re semi huge gif a files watch out gif a dead ahead good luck good software to be found out there too jurriaan jhwitten cs ruu nl jhwitten cs ruu nl jurriaan wittenberg department of computerscience utrecht the netherlands
comp.graphics	re rumours about do in article bd news service uci edu rbarris orion oac uci edu robert c barris writes i m not sure how a centris mhz stacks up against the mhz arm in the do box obviously the arm is faster but how much why would it have to be much faster it probably is assuming an arm is about as efficient as a mips r for integer calculations doing a compact video like digital video codec is an easy task for software motion pictures which is a lot like compact video though it predates it we get frames sec at x on a decstation that machine has a mhz mips r burkhard neidecker lutz distributed multimedia group cec karlsruhe eerp portfolio manager software motion pictures berkom ii project multimedia base technology digital equipment corporation neidecker nestvx enet dec com
comp.graphics	re sphere from points spworley netcom com steve worley writes bolson carson u washington edu edward bolson writes boy this will be embarassing if it is trivial or an faq given points non coplanar how does one find the sphere that is center and radius exactly fitting those points i know how to do it for a circle from points but do not immediately see a straightforward way to do it in d i have checked some geometry books graphics gems and farin but am still at a loss please have mercy on me and provide the solution it s not a bad question i don t have any refs that list this algorithm either but thinking about it a bit it shouldn t be too hard take three of the points and find the plane they define as well as the circle that they lie on you say you have this algorithm already find the center of this circle the line passing through this center perpendicular to the plane of the three points passes through the center of the sphere repeat with the unused point and two of the original points this gives you two different lines that both pass through the sphere s origin their interection is the center of the sphere the radius is easy to compute it s just the distance from the center to any of the original points i ll leave the math to you but this is a workable algorithm good i had a bad feeling about this problem because of a special case with no solution that worried me four coplanar points in the shape of a square have no unique sphere that they are on the surface of similarly colinear point have no finite sized sphere that they are on the surface of these algorithms being geometrical designed rather than algebraically design meet these problems neatly when determining which plane the points are on if they are colinear the algorithm should afil or return infinite r when intersecting the two lines there are possibilities they are the same line the points were on a planar circle they are different lines but parallel there is a sphere of in radius this last case can be achieved with colinier points and any th point by taking the th point and pairs of the first parallel lines will be produced it can also be achieved by if all points are coplanar but are not on one circle it seems to me that the algorithm only fails when the points are coplanar the algorithm always fails when the points are coplanar points being colinear coplanar testing if the th point is coplanar when the plane of the first points has been found is trivial an alternate method would be to take pairs of points the plane formed by the perpendicular bisector of each line segment pair also contains the center of the sphere three pairs will form three planes intersecting at a point this might be easier to implement steve spworley netcom com
comp.graphics	re images of earth look in the pub space directory on ames arc nasa gov there are a number of earth images there you may have to hunt around the subdirectories as things tend to be filed under the mission ie apollo rather than under the image subject rick
comp.graphics	re cview answers renew blade stack urc tue nl rene walter writes a very kind soul has mailed me this reply for the bugs in cview since he isn t in the position to post this himself he asked me to post it for him but to leave his name out so here it comes cview has quite a number of bugs the one you mention is perhaps the most a stupid question but what will cview run on and where can i get it i am still in need of a gif viewer for linux without x windows thanks
comp.graphics	re cview answers in apr whiting mcs com sean whiting mcs com sean gum writes a stupid question but what will cview run on and where can i get it i am still in need of a gif viewer for linux without x windows thanks ho boy there is no way in hell you are going to be able to view gifs or do any other graphics in linux without x windows i love linux because it is so easy to learn you want text okay use linux you want text and graphics use linux with x windows simple painless required to have x windows if you want graphics this includes fancy word processors like doc image viewers like xv etc
comp.graphics	re cview answers in qlobb p a tuegate tue nl renew blade stack urc tue nl rene walter writes most info regarding dangers of reading from floppy disks omitted unrevcoverable way so be careful it is incredibly poor programming for a program to do this on the other hand when choosing files in the open files menu cview insists on doing a few disk reads every time one moves the hi lighter square incredibly annoying when it could do them all at once when it gets the directory info and really how much effort does it take to sort a directory listing in all fairness how many people do you know personally who read images from floppy drives i haven t tried it with jpegs but i do realize how agonizingly slow it is with gif files nevertheless it is an important bug that needs to be squashed i am merely pointing out that it was probably overlooked while it is serious one must keep in mind that it will probably affect at most of the targeted users of cview
comp.graphics	re cview answers renew blade stack urc tue nl rene walter writes over where it places its temp files it just places them in its current directory i have to beg to differ on this point as the batch file i use to launch cview cd s to the dir where cview resides and then invokes it every time i crash cview the byte temp file is found in the root dir of the drive cview is on just my cb cyberspace buddha why are you looking for more knowledge when you o cb wixer bga com do not pay attention to what you already know o cb wixer cactus org get out of my chair hillary to god peace
comp.graphics	help need d graphics code package for dos help i need code package whatever to take d data and turn it into a wireframe surface with hidden lines removed i m using a dos machine and the code can be in ansi c or c ansi fortran or basic the data i m using forms a rectangular grid please post your replies to the net so that others may benefit imho this is a general interest question thank you
comp.graphics	re vesa on the speedstar just posting to john cormack i wanted to tell you that there is a slight difference between speedstar and speedstar x stefan
comp.graphics	converting images to hp laserjet iii does anyone know of a good way standard pc application pd utility to convert tif img tga files into laserjet iii format we would also like to do the same converting to hpgl hp plotter files please email any response is this the correct group thanks in advance michael michael collier programmer the computer unit email m p collier uk ac city the city university tel x london fax ec v hb
comp.graphics	comp graphics programmer hello netters sorry i don t know if this is the right way of doing this kind of thing probably should be a cfv but since i don t have tha ability to create a news group myself i just want to start the discussion i enjoy reading c g very much but i often find it difficult to sort out what i m interested in everything from screen drivers graphics cards graphics programming and graphics programs are discused here what i d like is a comp graphics programmer news group what do you other think arff also for the not religous confessor there is a mystery of higher values who s birth mankind to the last builds upon they are indisputible and often disregarded seldom you hear them beeing prized as seldom as you hear a seeing man prizeing what he sees per lagerkvist the fist free translation from swedish andreas arff andreasa dhhalden no
comp.graphics	re help need d graphics code package for dos n ba tamvm tamu edu wrote help i need code package whatever to take d data and turn it into a wireframe surface with hidden lines removed i m using a dos machine and the code can be in ansi c or c ansi fortran or basic the data i m using forms a rectangular grid please post your replies to the net so that others may benefit imho this is a general interest question thank you
comp.graphics	surface intersections i have a problem with intersections between two surfaces does anybody have a easy to understand algorithm for that or maybe even c source marco seirio in real life sp marse caligula his s
comp.graphics	wanted atomic energy res establishment uk techreport i m looking for the following paper marlow s and powell m j d a fortran subroutine for plotting the part of a conic that is inside a given triangle rep r atomic energy res establishment harwell england or anything related including d cases max max froumentin laboratoire d informatique always better never first fondamentale de lille tigran petrossian france
comp.graphics	re bit graphics cards i am looking for eisa or vesa local bus graphic cards that support at least x x resolution i know matrox has one but it is very expensive all the other cards i know of that support that resoultion are striaght isa what about the elsa winner s bt mb eisa or the metheus premier vl s bt mb isa vl also are there any x servers for a unix pc that support bits as it just happens sgcs has a xserver x that does x x on those cards please email to info sgcs com for more details thomas das reh springt hoch e mail roell sgcs com das reh springt weit include sys pizza h was soll es tun es hat ja zeit
comp.graphics	need a viewer for gl files hi the subject says it all is there a pd viewer for gl files for x thanks dominik
comp.graphics	radiosity radiosity sources wanted when i read the comp graphics group i never found something about radiosity is there anybody interested in out there i would be glad to hear from somebody i am looking for source code for the radiosity method i have already read common literature e g foley i think little examples could help me to understand how radiosity works common languages c c pascal prefered i hope you will help me yours peter
comp.graphics	borland turbo c libraries for s graphics card i ve recently got hold of a pc with an s card in it and i d like to do some c programming with it are there any libraries out there that will let me access the high resolution modes available via borland turbo c andy
comp.graphics	re radiosity in article rz uni jena de hahm fossi hab weimar de peter hahm writes radiosity sources wanted when i read the comp graphics group i never found something about radiosity is there anybody interested in out there i would be glad to hear from somebody i am looking for source code for the radiosity method i have already read common literature e g foley i think little examples could help me to understand how radiosity works common languages c c pascal prefered i hope you will help me yours peter peter there s a radiosity package ahead the only problem is there are a few miles to sail let s be serious i m working on a radiosity package written in c i would like to make it public domain i ll announce it in c g the minute i finished it that were the good news the bad news it ll take another months at least to finish it in the meantime you may have a look at the file radiosity code tar z located at compute cc ncsu edu there are some other locations have a look at archie to get the nearest hope that ll help yours stephan stephan amann sig computer graphics university of berne switzerland amann iam unibe ch tel fax projects radiosity raytracing computer graphics
comp.graphics	re needed plotting package that does in article full gl apr dolphin pts mot com full gl pts mot com glen fullmer writes looking for a graphics cad or whatever package on a x unix box that will take a file with records like n a b p where n a count integer a entity a string b entity b string p type string and produce a networked graph with nodes represented with boxes or circles and the vertices represented by lines and the width of the line determined by n there would be a different line type for each type of vertice the boxes need to be identified with the entity s name the number of entities and vertices it would be nice if the tool minimized line cross overs and did a good job of layout i have looked in the faq for comp graphics and gnuplot without success any ideas would be appreciated thanks glen fullmer glen fullmer pts mot com hi see roger grywalski s response to re help on network visualization in comp graphics visualization amongst other things it does exactly this chris murphy chris alta oh com columbus oh
comp.graphics	re rumours about do first off thanks to all who have filled me in on the existence of the i assumed rashly that the particular number would be reserved for further enhancements to the motorola line rather than meted out to another company ah well i guess that s what i get when i assume the computer industry will operate in a logical manner in article apr rchland ibm com ricardo hernandez muchado ricardo rchland vnet ibm com writes sean i don t want to get into a mini war by what i am going to say but i have to be a little bit skeptic about the performance you are claiming on the centris you ll see why please no flames i reserve those for c s m a i was in chicago in the last consumer electronics show and apple had a booth there i walked by and they were showing real time video capture using a radious or supermac card to digitize and make right on the spot quicktime movies i think the quicktime they were using was the old one version of quicktime is as has been stated the current version of the software the older version is and is on the horizon in the not too distant future they digitized a guy talking there in x xx something it played back quite nicely and in real time the guy then expanded the window resized to x by xx in y i think and the frame rate decreased enough to notice that it wasn t fps or about fps anymore it dropped to like fps then he increased it just a bit more and it dropped to fps quicktime does a much better job of playing back movies at size than it does playing back resized movies apparently the process of expanding each frame s image and dithering the resultant bitmap to the appropriate bit depth is pretty processor intensive there are optimizers that work pretty well for showing movies at double size but if you drop to x size or increase to x size performance suffers dramatically then i asked him what mac he was using he was using a quadra don t know what model to do it and he was telling the guys there that the quicktime could play back at the same speed even on an lcii he lied quicktime is very cpu dependent he was probably confused by the fact that qt is locked to an internal timecode and will play in the same amount of time on any machine however an lc will drop frames in order to keep the sound and video synced up the centris and quadras have similar cpus and will thus boast similar performance though the quadras will be a bit faster due to marginally faster clock speeds and somewhat different architecture well i spoiled his claim so to say since a quadra mac was having a little bit of trouble and this wasn t even from the hardisk this was from memory could it be that you saw either a newer version of quicktime or some hardware assisted centris or another software product running the animation like supposedly macromind s accelerator i expect that the version of the quicktime software you saw was i was using was one of the new codecs in v allows video at nearly twice the size and the same frame rate as what version could handle the centris i saw was a plain vanilla with the exception of the nice speakers that were playing the sound and the software was movie player the qt player apple includes with the software don t misunderstand me i just want to clarify this no problem it still surprises me that quicktime is able to do the things it does as well as it can sean mcmains check out the gopher phone university of north texas new bands info server fax p o box at seanmac acs unt edu e mail denton tx mcmains unt edu
comp.graphics	re images of earth in c q hk kod hawnews watson ibm com ricky watson ibm com rick turner writes look in the pub space directory on ames arc nasa gov there are a number of earth images there you may have to hunt around the subdirectories as things tend to be filed under the mission ie apollo rather than under the image subject for those of you who don t need bit i got a colour amiga iff of a cloudless earth scanned looks okay when mapped on a sphere e mail me and i ll send it you louis i m hanging on your words living on your breath feeling with your skin will i always be here in your room dm
comp.graphics	removing distortion from bitmapped drawings let s say you have a scanned image of a line drawing in this case a boat but it could be anything on the drawing you have a set of reference points whose true x y positions are known now you digitize the drawing manually in this case using yaron danon s excellent digitize program that is you use a program which converts cursor positions to x y and saves those values when you click the mouse upon digitizing you notice that the reference point values that come out of the digitizing process differ in small but significant ways from the known true values this is understandable because the scanned drawing is a reproduction of the original and there are successive sources of distortion such as differential expansion and contraction of paper errors introduced in the printing process scanner errors and what have you the errors are not uniform over the entire drawing so global adjustments such as stretching contracting uniformly over x or y or rotating the whole drawing are not satisfactory so the question is does any kind soul know of an algorithm for removing such distortion in particular if i have three sets of points reference x y the known true values distortedreference x y the same points with known errors distorteddata x y other points with unknown errors what function of reference and distorted could i apply to distorteddata to remove the errors i suspect the problem could be solved by treating the distorted reference points as resulting from the projection of a bumpy d surface solving for the surface and then flattening it to remove the errors in the other data points any kind and informed soul out there have any ideas or better yet pointers to treatments of the same or similar problems thanks earl
comp.graphics	help grasp hi could anyone tell me if it s possible to save each frame of a gl grasp animation to gif jpg iff or any other picture formats i ve got some animations that i d like to transfer to my amiga i really hope that someone can help me cheers haavard nesse trondheim college of engineering trondheim norway
comp.graphics	re comp graphics programmer in article andreasa dhhalden no andreasa dhhalden no andreas arff writes hello netters sorry i don t know if this is the right way of doing this kind of thing probably should be a cfv but since i don t have tha ability to create a news group myself i just want to start the discussion i enjoy reading c g very much but i often find it difficult to sort out what i m interested in everything from screen drivers graphics cards graphics programming and graphics programs are discused here what i d like is a comp graphics programmer news group what do you other think this sounds wonderful but it seems no one either wants to spend time doing this or they don t have the power to do so for example i would like to see a comp graphics architecture like this comp graphics algorithms d comp graphics algorithms d comp graphics algorithms misc comp graphics hardware comp graphics misc comp graphics software apps however that is almost overkill something more like this would probably make everyone a lot happier comp graphics programmer comp graphics hardware comp graphics apps comp graphics misc it would be nice to see specialized groups devote to d d morphing raytracing image processing interactive graphics toolkits languages object systems etc but these could be posted to a relevant group or have a mailing list organized that way when someone reads news they don t have to see these subject headings which are rather disparate system specific stuff should be under comp sys or comp os programmer need help programming gl modex programming information fast sprites on pc hardware technical stuff speed of weitek p drivers for speedstar x applications oriented stuff vistapro help how good is dstudio best image processing program for amiga programming oriented stuff fast polygon routine needed good morphing alogirhtm wanted best depth sort for triangles which c library to get i wish someone with the power would get a cfd and then a cfv going on this stuff this newsgroup needs it brian
comp.graphics	re cview answers bryanw rahul net bryan woodworth writes in apr whiting mcs com sean whiting mcs com sean gum writes a stupid question but what will cview run on and where can i get it i am still in need of a gif viewer for linux without x windows thanks ho boy there is no way in hell you are going to be able to view gifs or do any other graphics in linux without x windows i love linux because it is so easy to learn you want text okay use linux you want text and graphics use linux with x windows simple painless required to have x windows if you want graphics this includes fancy word processors like doc image viewers like xv etc ummm i beg to differ a kind soul sent me a program called dpg view that will do exactly what i want view gif images under linux without x windows and it does support all the way up to x the biggest complaint i have is it is painfully slow it takes about minute to display an image i am use to cshow under dos which takes a split second any idea why it is so slow under linux anybody have anything better plus anybody have the docs to dpg view thanks
comp.graphics	re help need d graphics code package for dos in article apr ugle unit no razor swix nvg unit no runar jordahl writes n ba tamvm tamu edu wrote help i need code package whatever to take d data and turn it into a wireframe surface with hidden lines removed i m using a dos machine and the code can be in ansi c or c ansi fortran or basic the data i m using forms a rectangular grid is a general interest question thank you i m afraid your reply didn t get thru i do appreciate you trying to reply however please try again
comp.graphics	re postscript drawing prog in article c ecnn qo mentor cc purdue edu nish cv chem purdue edu nishantha i writes could somebody let me know of a drawing utility that can be used to manipulate postscript files i am specifically interested in drawing lines boxes and the sort on postscript contour plots i have tried xfig and i am impressed by it s features however it is of no use since i cannot use postscript files as input for the programme is there a utility that converts postscript to xfig format any help would be greatly appreciated nishantha i think you are too optimistic postscript is a very big language and so the fig format can not be able to be an interpreter of any arbitrary ps code the only program i know to manipulate postscript files is islanddraw i for myself use xfig and include the postscript files converted to epsi format small changes then are possible erasing some letters adding text and so on reinhard
comp.graphics	siggraph conference on understanding images nyc acm siggraph understanding images subject pace university siggraph conference on understanding images the purpose of this conference is to bring together a breadth of disciplines including the physical biological and computational sciences technology art psychology philosophy and education in order to define and discuss the issues essential to image understanding within the computer graphics context featured topics include psychology perception image analysis design text sound philosophy date friday saturday may time am pm place the pace downtown theater one pace plaza on spruce street between park row gold street ny ny fees pre registration prior to may members non members students proof of f t status required registration after may or on site all attendees registration fee includes brakfast breaks lunch send registration information fees to dr francis t marchese computer science department nyc acm siggraph conference pace university pace plaza room t new york ny voice fax email marchesf pacevm bitnet registration information name title company street address city state zip day phone evening phone fax phone email detailed description artists designers scientists engineers and educators share the problem of moving information from one mind to another traditionally they have used pictures words demonstrations music and dance to communicate imagery however expressing complex notions such as god and infinity or a seemingly well defined concept such as a flower can present challenges which far exceed their technical skills the explosive use of computers as visualization and expression tools has compounded this problem in hypermedia multimedia and virtual reality systems vast amounts of information confront the observer or participant wading through a multitude of simultaneous images and sounds in possibly unfamiliar representions a confounded user asks what does it all mean since image construction transmission reception decipherment and ultimate understanding are complex tasks strongly influenced by physiology education and culture and since electronic media radically amplify each processing step then we as electronic communicators must determine the fundamental paradigms for composing imagery for understanding therefore the purpose of this conference is to bring together a breadth of disciplines including but not limited to the physical biological and computational sciences technology art psychology philosophy and education in order to define and discuss the issues essential to image understanding within the computer graphics context featured speakers include psychology perception marc de may university of ghent beverly j jones university of oregon barbara tversky standfor university michael j shiffer mit tom hubbard ohio state university image analysis a ravishankar rao ibm watson research center nalini bhusan smith college xiaopin hu university of illinois narenda ahuja university of illinois les m sztander university of toledo design mark bajuk university of illinois alyce kaprow mit text xia lin pace university john loustau hunter college jong ding wang hunter college judson rosebush judson rosebush co sound matthew witten university of texas robert wyatt center for high performance computing robert s williams pace university rory stuart nynex philosophy michael heim education foundation of dpma
comp.graphics	re fake virtual reality mike peredo mindlink bc ca mike peredo writes the most ridiculous example of vr exploitation i ve seen so far is the virtual reality clothing company which recently opened up in vancouver as far as i can tell it s just another chic clothes spot although it would be interesting if they were selling virtual clothing e mail me if you want me to dig up their phone and you can probably get some promotional lit i understand there have been a couple of raves in la billing themselves as virtual reality parties what i hear they do is project gif images around on the walls as well as run animations through a newtek toaster seems like we need to adopt the term really virtual reality or something except for the non immersive stuff which is virtually really virtual reality etc mp samuel pratice safe signature prevent dangerous signature virii guildenstern our names shouted in a certain dawn a message a summons there must have been a moment at the beginning where we could have said no but somehow we missed it
comp.graphics	re removing distortion from bitmapped drawings in article apr sctc com boebert sctc com earl boebert writes let s say you have a scanned image of a line drawing in this case a boat but it could be anything on the drawing you have a set of reference points whose true x y positions are known now you digitize the drawing manually in this case using yaron danon s excellent digitize program that is you use a program which converts cursor positions to x y and saves those values when you click the mouse upon digitizing you notice that the reference point values that come out of the digitizing process differ in small but significant ways from the known true values this is understandable because the scanned drawing is a reproduction of the original and there are successive sources of distortion such as differential expansion and contraction of paper errors introduced in the printing process scanner errors and what have you the errors are not uniform over the entire drawing so global adjustments such as stretching contracting uniformly over x or y or rotating the whole drawing are not satisfactory so the question is does any kind soul know of an algorithm for removing such distortion in particular if i have three sets of points reference x y the known true values distortedreference x y the same points with known errors distorteddata x y other points with unknown errors what function of reference and distorted could i apply to distorteddata to remove the errors i suspect the problem could be solved by treating the distorted reference points as resulting from the projection of a bumpy d surface solving for the surface and then flattening it to remove the errors in the other data points it helps to have some idea of the source of the distortion or at least a reasonable model of the class of distortion below is a very short description of the process which we use if you have further questions feel free to poke me via e mail assume locally smooth distortion compute the delaunay triangulation of your x y points this defines the set of neighbors for each point if your data are not naturally convex you may have very long edges on the convex hull consider deleting these edges now there are two goals a move the distorteddata x y to the reference x y b keep the length e as measured from the current x y s as close as possible to the digitizedlength e as measured using the digitized x y s for every point compute a displacement based on a and b for example a for x y points for which you know the reference x y you can move alpha reference x y current x y this will slowly move the distortedreference x y towards the reference x y b for all other points examine the current length of each edge for each edge compute a displacement which would make that edge the correct length where correct is the digitizedlength take the vector sum of these edge displacements and move the point alpha sumofedgedisplacements this will keep the triangulated mesh consistent with your digitized mesh iterate until you are happy for example no point moves very much alpha and alpha need to be determined by experimentation consider how much you believe the reference x y i e do you absolutely insist on the final points exactly matching the references or do you want to balance some error in matching the reference against changes in length of the edges warning there are a couple of geometric invariants which must be observed essentially you can t allow the convex hull to change and you can t allow triangles to fold over neighboring triangles both of these can be handled either by special case checks on the motion of individual points or by periodically re triangulating the points using the current positions but still calculating digitizedlength from the original positions when we first did this the triangulation time was prohibitive so we only did it once if i were motivated to try and change code that has been working in production mode for years i might go back and re triangulate on every iteration if you have more compute power than you know what to do with you might consider having every point interact with every other point but first read up on linear solutions to the n body problem there are lots of papers in the last years of siggraph proceedings on springs constraints and energy calculations which are relevant the above method is described in more or less detail in inproceedings sloan author sloan jr kenneth r and david meyers and christine a curcio title reconstruction and display of the retina booktitle proceedings graphics interface vision interface address vancouver canada pages month may year techreport curcio b author christine a curcio and kenneth r sloan and david meyers title computer methods for sampling reconstruction display and analysis of retinal whole mounts number tr institution department of computer science university of washington address seattle wa month december year article curcio author christine a curcio and kenneth r sloan and david meyers title computer methods for sampling reconstruction display and analysis of retinal whole mounts journal vision research volume number pages year kenneth sloan computer and information sciences sloan cis uab edu university of alabama at birmingham a campbell hall uab station fax birmingham al
comp.graphics	outlining of spline surface about a year ago i started work on a problem that appeared to be very simple and turned out to be quite difficult i am wondering if anyone on the net has seen this problem and hopefully some published solutions to it the problem is to draw an outline of a surface defined by two roughly parallel cubic splines for inputs the problem essentially starts with two sets of points where each set of points is on the edge of an object which we treat as two dimensional i e only extant between the edges but which exists in three dimensional space to draw the object we fit a cubic spline through the points each spline is effectively computed as a sequence of line segments approximating the curve each spline has an equal number of segments we assume that the nth segment along each spline is roughly but not exactly the same distance along each spline by any reasonable measure take each segment n along each spline and match it to the nth segment of the opposing spline use the pair of segments to form two triangles which will be filled in to color the surface depth sort the triangles take each triangle in sorted order project onto a d pixmap draw and color the triangle take the edge of the triangle that is along the edge of the surface and draw a line along that edge colored with a special edge color it is the edge coloring in step that is at the heart of the problem the idea is to effectively outline the edge of the surface the net result however generally has lots of breaks and gaps in the edge of the surface the reasons for this are fairly complicated they involve both rasterization problems and problems resulting from the projecting the splines if anything about this problem sounds familiar we would appreciate knowing about other work in this area thanks
comp.graphics	flat globe does anybody have an algorithm for flattening out a globe or any other parametric surface that is definied parametrically that is i would like to take a sheet of paper and a knife and to be able to calculate how i must cut in the paper so i can fold it to a globe or any other object marco seirio in real life sp marse caligula his se
comp.graphics	re images of earth in article apr cs ruu nl clldomps cs ruu nl louis van dompselaar writes in c q hk kod hawnews watson ibm com ricky watson ibm com rick turner writes look in the pub space directory on ames arc nasa gov there are a number of earth images there you may have to hunt around the subdirectories as things tend to be filed under the mission ie apollo rather than under the image subject for those of you who don t need bit i got a colour amiga iff of a cloudless earth scanned looks okay when mapped on a sphere e mail me and i ll send it you beware there is only one such copyrighted image and the company that generated is known to protect that copyright that image took hundreds of man hours to build from the source satellite images so it is unlikely that competing images will appear soon
comp.graphics	newsgroup split concerning the proposed newsgroup split i personally am not in favor of doing this i learn an awful lot about all aspects of graphics by reading this group from code to hardware to algorithms i just think making different groups out of this is a wate and will only result in a few posts a week per group i kind of like the convenience of having one big forum for discussing all aspects of graphics anyone else feel this way just curious daemon
comp.graphics	re surface intersections sp marse lina marco seirio writes i have a problem with intersections between two surfaces does anybody have a easy to understand algorithm for that or maybe even c source marco seirio in real life sp marse caligula his s you also have a severe problem with news headers ftp to cs purdue edu pub vanecek and pull proxima tar z and proxima ps z tres spif lance norskog thinman netcom com data is not information is not knowledge is not wisdom
comp.graphics	page flipping in vga x x mode help how do you write to the second bank page of memory when in vga x x colour mode ie to perform page flipping animation and buffering of the screen i have tried using the map mask registers but this does not perform the required task although it does do something note it must be able to work on a standard vga ie not necessarily a svga card many thanx in advance andrew
comp.graphics	imagine hello again netters i finally received the information about imagine for the pc they are presently shipping version of the software and will release version in the first quarter of or so they say the upgrade from to is to purchase imagine it costs or if you are upgrading from another eligible call them for info modeler it is only plus shipping handling it requires a pc with megs a math coprocessor and dos or up and a microsoft mouse and svga card thanks for all your replies about the product i have received many contrasting replies but once i scrounge the money together i think i will take the plunge thanks again here is the info for impulse if you want to find out more or get the sheet they sent impulse inc xerxes avenue north minneapolis mn thanks again for all your replies scott scott snowiss sasst pitt edu turn on jack in jack out
comp.graphics	re pcx to ad freenet carleton ca jw where is there a book or code that will teach me how jw to read and write pcx dbf and gif files jw how do i access the extra ram on my paradise video board jw so i can do paging in the higher vga modes ie x x jw x x jw anybody got a line on a good book to help answer these question here are some that i have that are very good graphics file formats kay and levine isbn supercharged bitmapped graphics rimmer isbn programmer s guide to the ega and vga cards ferraro isbn has a whole chapter on paradise svga dave deluxe
comp.graphics	vga passthrough cables does anyone know the phone number to a place where i can get a vga passthrough i want to hook up my vga card to my xga card whcih you can can all i need is the cable that connects them it is the same type of cable that you would connect from your vga card to say a video blaster or something thanks brad
comp.graphics	detecting double points in bezier curves i m looking for any information on detecting and or calculating a double point and or cusp in a bezier curve an algorithm literature reference or mail about this is very appreciated ferdinand
comp.graphics	re computer graphics to vcr getting an image from a computer monitor to a videotape is harder than it looks the standard vga and ega outputs are very different than the ntsc format used by televisions while there is equipment that will do the conversion it is hard to get your hands on and costs quite a bit if you have access to an amiga computer that has an ntsc output you can transfer certain types of graphic files by modem and tape them from the ntsc output unfortunately this would be frame by frame and would lead to unbelievably scratchy animation unless you had a good amiga animation program otherwise see if your local public access cable station has equipment that you can use
comp.graphics	re newsgroup split in article quvdoinn e srvr engin umich edu tdawson engin umich edu chris herringshaw writes concerning the proposed newsgroup split i personally am not in favor of doing this i learn an awful lot about all aspects of graphics by reading this group from code to hardware to algorithms i just think making different groups out of this is a wate and will only result in a few posts a week per group i kind of like the convenience of having one big forum for discussing all aspects of graphics anyone else feel this way just curious daemon i agree with you raist new a owner in x in y in colors from a bit palette i love it new low fat sig don t e mail me i don t have a valid address nor can i send e mail
comp.graphics	ellipse again hi everyone because no one has touched the problem i posted last week i guess my question was not so clear now i d like to describe it in detail the offset of an ellipse is the locus of the center of a circle which rolls on the ellipse in other words the distance between the ellipse and its offset is same everywhere this problem comes from the geometric measurement when a probe is used the tip of the probe is a ball and the computer just outputs the positions of the ball s center is the offset of an ellipse still an ellipse the answer is no ironically dmis an american indutrial standard says it is ellipse so almost all the software which was implemented on the base of dmis was wrong the software was also sold internationaly imagine how many people have or will suffer from this bug how many qualified parts with ellipse were will be discarded and most importantly how many defective parts with ellipse are will be used i was employed as a consultant by a company in los angeles last year to specially solve this problem i spent two months on analysis of this problem and six months on programming now my solution nonlinear is not ideal because i can only reconstruct an ellipse from its entire or half offset it is very difficult to find the original ellipse from a quarter or a segment of its offset because the method i used is not analytical i am now wondering if i didn t touch the base and make things complicated please give me a hint i know you may argue this is not a cg problem you are right it is not however so many people involved in the problem sphere from poits why not an ellipse and why not its offset please post here and let the others share our interests i got several emails from our netters they said they need the summary of the answers yeh usc
comp.graphics	re newsgroup split in article quvdoinn e srvr engin umich edu tdawson engin umich edu chris herringshaw writes concerning the proposed newsgroup split i personally am not in favor of doing this i learn an awful lot about all aspects of graphics by reading this group from code to hardware to algorithms i just think making different groups out of this is a wate and will only result in a few posts a week per group i kind of like the convenience of having one big forum for discussing all aspects of graphics anyone else feel this way just curious daemon i agree with you of cause i ll try to be a daemon yeh usc
comp.graphics	wayne rigby sorry to clog up the news group with this message wayne rigby i have the info you requested but for some reason i can not mail it to you please contact me send email address j no real programmer can function without caffeine zen art of internet john s muller muller diego llnl gov muller sisal llnl gov jmuller libserv ic sunysb edu you are not drunk until you have to grab the grass to keep the grass from falling off the earth some stupid comedian
comp.graphics	re cview answers uk nx mik uky edu bryan k williams writes re majority of users not readding from floppy well how about those of us who have picture cd roms and would like to use cview because it is fast and it works well but can t because the moron lacked the foresight to create the temp file in the program s path not the current didrectory actually the most flexible way to create temp files is to check for a temp or tmp environment variable and create the files on the drive and directory pointedto by the variable this is pretty much a standard for dos windows and os applications what i have to say is my own opinion and has no bearing on any other person or organization including my employer rknight salestech com sales technologies inc
comp.graphics	help splitting a trimming region along a mesh hi i have a problem i hope some of the gurus can help me solve background of the problem i have a rectangular mesh in the uv domain i e the mesh is a mapping of a d bezier patch into d the area in this domain which is inside a trimming loop had to be rendered the trimming loop is a set of d bezier curve segments for the sake of notation the mesh is made up of cells my problem is this the trimming area has to be split up into individual smaller cells bounded by the trimming curve segments if a cell is wholly inside the area then it is output as a whole else it is trivially rejected does any body know how thiss can be done or is there any algo somewhere for doing this any help would be appreciated thanks ani to get irritated is human to stay cool divine
comp.graphics	re detecting double points in bezier curves in article ia b w w oeinck waterland wlink nl ferdinan oeinck waterland wlink nl ferdinand oeinck writes i m looking for any information on detecting and or calculating a double point and or cusp in a bezier curve an algorithm literature reference or mail about this is very appreciated there was a very useful article in one of the issues of transactions on graphics i believe maureen stone was one of the authors sorry not to be more specific i don t have the reference here with me the article actually was more general than this giving a way to decide whether a given cubic bezier curve contains cusps intersection points or whatever wierdness the same treatment is also available in siggraph course notes for the course called math for siggraph or something like that dr memory jbulf kpc com
comp.graphics	re video in out in article apr nwnexus wa com mscrap halcyon com marta lyall writes organization a world of information at your fingertips keywords in article toontown columbiasc ncr com craig toontown columbiasc ncr com craig s williamson writes i m getting ready to buy a multimedia workstation and would like a little advice i need a graphics card that will do video in and out under windows i was originally thinking of a targa but that doesn t work under windows what cards should i be looking into thanks craig to forgive is divine to be craig williamson an airhead is human craig williamson columbiasc ncr com balki bartokomas craig toontown columbiasc ncr com home perfect strangers craig you should still consider the targa i run windows on it all the time at work and it works fine i think all you need is the right driver josh west email mscrap halcyon com at t also puts out two new products for windows model numbers elude me now a bit video board with framegrabber and a bit with same yesterday i was looking at a product at a local software etc store media vision makes a bit color frame capture board that is stand alone and doesnot use the feature connector on your existing video card it claims upto fps live capture as well as single frame from either composite ntsc or s video in and out don lewis djlewis ualr edu
comp.graphics	stand alone editing suite i need some help we are upgrading our animation video editing stand we are looking into the different type of setups for a b roll and a cuts only station we would like this to be controlled by a computer brand doesnt matter but maybe mac or amiga low end to high end system setups would be very helpful if you have a system or use a system that might be of use could you mail me your system requirements what it is used for and all the hardware and software that will be necessary to set the system up if you need more info you can mail me at eylerken u washington edu thanks in advance ken eylerken u washington edu
comp.graphics	re help grasp in article apr w baron edb tih no havardn edb tih no haavard nesse o a writes could anyone tell me if it s possible to save each frame of a gl grasp animation to gif jpg iff or any other picture formats if you have the grasp animation system then yes it s quite easy you simply use glib to extract the image each frame in a gl is actually a complete pcx or clp file then use one of many available utilities to convert it if you don t have the grasp package i m afraid i can t help you sorry by the way before you ask grasp graphics animation system for professionals is a commercial product that sells for just over us from most mail order companies i ve seen and no i don t have it corey webb corey webb for in much wisdom is much grief and cbw s vma smsu edu he that increaseth knowledge increaseth bitnet cbw s smsvma sorrow ecclesiastes the s means i am only but first are you experienced speaking for myself jimi hendrix
comp.graphics	re please recommend d graphics library for mac in article apr kth se d jwa hemul nada kth se jon wtte writes in z b w w cellar org tsa cellar org the silent assassin writes i m building a cad package and need a d graphics library that can handle some rudimentry tasks such as hidden line removal shading animation etc can you please offer some recommendations i think apda has something called macwireframe which is a full wire frame and supposedly hidden line removal library i think it weighs in at but i ve been wrong on an order of magnitude before i spoke with the author of macwireframe earlier today the cost is but there are no license royalties his name is eric johnson in sacramento ca phone he doesn t have email very nice guy very knowledgeable about graphics seems like he may have a decent package it s an object pascal framework that supposedly has a fairly complete set of geometry creation classes i m going to check it out and see if it s got what i need for my cad package i also found another package d graphic tools by micro system options in seattle the number is also no email the package is strong at ray tracing i m not too sure about its geometry creation tools i also need to look into this package some more i also spoke with the author mark owens another nice guy that seems to know his business the price is no royalties bobc
comp.graphics	re please recommend d graphics library for mac in article qnm finn tr tamsun tamu edu brentb tamsun tamu edu brent writes tsa cellar org the silent assassin writes rgc bcstec ca boeing com robert g carpenter writes can you please offer some recommendations it s really not that hard to do there are books out there which explain everything and the basic d functions translation rotation shading and hidden line removal are pretty easy i wrote a program in a few weeks witht he help of a book and would be happy to give you my source i think he wanted to avoid reinventing the wheel yes i want to concentrate on other development issues i ve created graphics libraries before it s too time consuming life s too short also quickdraw has a lot of d functions built in and think pascal can access them and i would expect that think c could as well if you can find out how to use the quickdraw graphics library it would be an excellent choice since it has a lot of stuff and is built into the mac so should be fast just to clarify the d routines that are mentioned in various places on the mac are in a libray not the rom of the mac a few years ago before i knew anything about implementing graphics i came across a demo of the apple grafsys d library and it actually did a lot however it is quite limited in the sense that it s a low level d library your code still has to plot individual points draw each line etc ad nauseum it has nothing on gl for example where you can handle objects thanks for the clarification before posting my original request i had looked into the mac s d capabilities and dismissed them as low grade bobc
comp.graphics	re rumours about do in article apr mercury unt edu sean mcmains mcmains unt edu writes in article apr rchland ibm com ricardo hernandez muchado ricardo rchland vnet ibm com writes and cd i s cpu doesn t help much either i understand it is a supposedly a variation of a running at something like mhz with this speed you truly need sprites wow a i d be very interested to get my hands on one of these especially considering the fact that motorola has not yet released the which is supposedly the next in the x lineup d don t get too excited signetics not motorola gave the its number the if i understand rightly uses the instruction set and has an on chip serial port and dma it will run at up to mhz i m typing at a computer using a running at that rate so i know that it can do so so i seriously doubt the clock rate that ricardo rchland vnet ibm com claims james jones
comp.graphics	wanted multi page gif hi i am searching for packages that could handle multi page gif files are there any on some ftp servers i ll appreciate one which works on pc either on dos or windows but any package works on unix will be ok thanks in advance
comp.graphics	physics lab loses a number please i need the starting address pointer for the beginning of the color information rgb on vga mode h that s hex gee duh thanks soooo much hugs and kisses in advance john at uci e mail eapu orion oac uci edu
comp.graphics	articles on flocking hi all can someone point me towards some articles on boids or flocking algorithms also articles on particle animation formulas would be nice james kewageshig uucp james kewageshig canrem com n e t w o r k v i i i fidonet james kewageshig deluxe head of co xv hi this is a signature virus co canada remote systems toronto ontario
comp.graphics	xv under ms dos hi recently i found xv for ms dos in a subdirectory of gnu cc gnuish i use frequently xv on a sun spark station and i never had problems but when i start it on my computer with h option it display the help menu and when i start it with a gif file my hard disk turns or seconds and the prompt come back my computer is a little with copro mega rams tseng m running ms dos with himem sys and no emm sys i had the go exe too but no driver who run with it do somenone know the solution to run xv any help would be apprecied thanx in advance pascal perret perret eicn etna ch ecole d ing nieur ets not available at this time le locle suisse enjoy computer
comp.graphics	need polygon splitting algo the idea is to clip one polygon using another polygon not necessarily rectangular as a window my problem then is in finding out all the new vertices of the resulting subpolygons from the first one is this simply a matter of extending the usual algorithm whereby each of the edges of one polygon is checked against another polygon is there a simpler way comments welcome noel
comp.graphics	j c jensen s bitmap code greetings all according to a faq i read on july joshua c jensen posted an article on bitmap manipulation specifically scaling and perspective to the newsgroup rec games programmer article the article included source code in turbo pascal with inline assembly language i have been unable to find an archive for this newsgroup or a current email address for joshua c jensen if anyone has the above details or a copy of the code could they please let me know many thanks yours gratefully etc myles myles strous email myles strous lib monash edu au raytracing fan phone got the same urgent grasp of reality as a cardboard cut out proud to have him on the team archchancellor mustrum ridcully in reaper man by terry pratchett
comp.graphics	re hdf readers viewers i wrote g day all can anybody point me at a utility which will read convert crop whatnot display hdf image files i ve had a look at the hdf stuff under ncsa and it must take an award for odd directory structure strange storage approaches and minimalist documentation and it has since turned out that all the mirror sites i looked at were fooled by a restructuring at the original site zaphod ncsa uiuc edu and hence were in a mess that and a pointer to imconv should get me started ta muchly cheers markus markus buchhorn parallel computing research facility email markus octavia anu edu au australian national university canberra australia international australia phone fax
comp.graphics	m motion video card yuv to rgb i am trying to convert an m motion ibm video file format yuv to rgb data the y portion is a byte from the v is a byte the color is u and v and the intensity is y does anyone have any ideas for algorhtyms or programs can someone tell me where to get info on the u and v of a television signal if you need more info reply at the e mail address basically what i am doing is converting a digital ntsc format to rgb vga for displaying captured video pictures thanks the u is a byte
comp.graphics	tseng et pixel clock i would like to program tseng et to nonstandard x mode by switching to standard x mode using bios and than changing some timing details x d registers x x f but i don t know how to select mhz pixel clock i need the bios function selects mhz is there anybody who knows where to obtain technical info about this i am also interested in any other technical information about tseng et and trident and chipsets thanks very much pavel zemcik dept of comp sci eng technical university of brno bozetechova cs brno czech republic e mail zemcik dcse fee vutbr cs
comp.graphics	sun ipx root window display background picture hello netters i have a fairly weak question to ask everybody in netland i ve looked though the last faq for comp graphics but i didn t find my answer thus the post i ll keep it short question how do i display any raster files gif files iff or tiff images that i have on my root window or background i have a sun ipc openwindows sun os if that helps any i ve compiled pov for the sun and would like to display some of the work i have done as a background tile thanks for any help or information that you provide have a good day scott fleming osi p s kudo s to the people who provided pov its great
comp.graphics	hdf readers viewers g day all can anybody point me at a utility which will read convert crop whatnot display hdf image files i ve had a look at the hdf stuff under ncsa and it must take an award for odd directory structure strange storage approaches and minimalist documentation part of the problem is that i want to look at large mb hdf files and crop out a section ideally i would like a hdftoppm type of utility from which i can then use the pbmplus stuff quite merrily i can convert the cropped part into another format for viewing animation otherwise can someone please explain how to set up the ncsa visualisation s w for hdf r or beta and do the above cropping etc this is for suns with sunos any help greatly appreciated ta muchly cheers markus markus buchhorn parallel computing research facility email markus octavia anu edu au australian national university canberra australia international australia phone fax markus buchhorn parallel computing research facility email markus octavia anu edu au australian national university canberra australia international australia phone fax
comp.graphics	re grayscale printer jian lu jian coos dartmouth edu wrote we are interested in purchasing a grayscale printer that offers a good resoltuion for grayscale medical images can anybody give me some recommendations on these products in the market in particular those under thank for the advice peter hauke brunel university se psh brunel ac uk
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of ulrich galki toppoint de wrote according to the tiff specification the tiff version number bytes has been chosen for its deep philosophical significance when i first read this i rotfl finally some philosphy in a technical spec but still i wondered what makes so significant last week i read the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy and rotfl the second time after millions of years of calculation the second best computer of all time reveals that is the answer to the question about life the universe and everything is this actually how they picked the number yes does anyone have any other suggestions where the came from i don t know where douglas adams took it from but i m pretty sure he s the one who launched it in the guide since then it s been showing up all over the place l one thing is for sure the sheep is not a creature of the earth joachim kih no the back masking on haaden ii from exposure by robert fripp
comp.graphics	re need a viewer for gl files in article qu i kh dux dundee ac uk dwestner cardhu mcs dundee ac uk dominik westner writes the subject says it all is there a pd viewer for gl files for x try xviewgl filename xviewgl v tar z on lots of bases ove what do you think x yep me too this is real life ove petter tro ford fairlane kongsberg college of engineering norway email ovep kih no
comp.graphics	bit mode on speedstar x i have a diamond speedstar x board that i want to program for bit x graphics or possibly x bit color does anybody have any libraries supporting these modes on this board even somes simple routines to set the graphics mode and plot individual pixels would be a great help i plan to use the routines with djgp thanks in advance please respond also via e mail david max max slinky cs nyu edu
comp.graphics	re flat globe sp marse kristin marco seirio writes does anybody have an algorithm for flattening out a globe or any other parametric surface that is definied parametrically that is i would like to take a sheet of paper and a knife and to be able to calculate how i must cut in the paper so i can fold it to a globe or any other object there is a library of map projections in charon er usgs gov in pub proj tar z
comp.graphics	re m motion video card yuv to rgb i ll contact you offline about this rick
comp.graphics	re xv under ms dos no e mail address eicn etna ch writes hi recently i found xv for ms dos in a subdirectory of gnu cc gnuish i please tell me where you where you ftp d this from i would like to have a copy of it i would have mailed you but your post indicates you have no mail address wayne michael wdm world std com
comp.graphics	re rumours about do in article apr microware com jejones microware com james jones writes in article apr mercury unt edu sean mcmains mcmains unt edu writes in article apr rchland ibm com ricardo hernandez muchado ricardo rchland vnet ibm com writes and cd i s cpu doesn t help much either i understand it is a supposedly a variation of a running at something like mhz with this speed you truly need sprites wow a i d be very interested to get my hands on one of these especially considering the fact that motorola has not yet released the which is supposedly the next in the x lineup d don t get too excited signetics not motorola gave the its number the if i understand rightly uses the instruction set and has an on chip serial port and dma it will run at up to mhz i m typing at a computer using a running at that rate so i know that it can do so so i seriously doubt the clock rate that ricardo rchland vnet ibm com claims james jones just because the can run upto mhz doesn t mean the cd i is running at that speed i said i understand it is a running at something like mhz i am not sure but i think i read this a long time ago anyway still with mhz you need sprites for a lot of tricks for making cool awesome games read psygnosis raist new a owner in x in y in colors from a bit palette i love it new low fat sig don t e mail me i don t have a valid address nor can i send e mail
comp.graphics	re newsgroup split in article quvdoinn e srvr engin umich edu tdawson engin umich edu chris herringshaw writes ch concerning the proposed newsgroup split i personally am not in ch favor of doing this i learn an awful lot about all aspects of ch graphics by reading this group from code to hardware to ch algorithms i just think making different groups out of this ch is a wate and will only result in a few posts a week per group ch i kind of like the convenience of having one big forum for ch discussing all aspects of graphics anyone else feel this way ch just curious i must agree there is a dizzying number of c s amiga newsgroups already in addition there are very few issues which fall cleanly into one of these categories also it is readily observable that the current spectrum of amiga groups is already plagued with mega crossposting thus the group split would not in all likelihood bring about a more structured environment michael nerone i shall do so with my customary lack of tact and internet address since you have asked for this you will be obliged nerone ccwf cc utexas edu to pardon it sagredo fictional char of galileo
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of in article apr samba oit unc edu cptully med unc edu christopher p tully pathology writes why so up tight for that matter tiff is out now so why not gripe about its problems also if its so important to you volunteer to help define or critique the spec i ve got the spec obviously since i quoted it in my last posting my gripe about tiff is that it s far too complicated and nearly infinitely easier to write than to read which i think hurts your acceptance by anything that will need to read those images e g paint programs in a nutshell i don t think tiff is salvageable unless the fat is trimmed significantly and then it wouldn t be tiff anymore they keep trying to cut it back but it s late now maybe they will fix it and change that magic number to signify the lack of compatibility that would probably make me happy ab
comp.graphics	re fonts in pov hi the rtrace ray tracer supports d text as a primitive not collections of spheres cylinders and so on the d chars are made of lines and splines that are extruded please have a look at asterix inescn pt in directory pub rtrace in pub rtrace tmp there are some demo images with high quality text all of them are called text jpg jpeg encoded see them first and then tell me what you think regards antonio o o i n e s c o antonio costa e mail acc asterix inescn pt o acosta porto inescn pt o comp graphics cad decnet porto a costa largo mompilher uucp mcvax o o porto portugal bell o o o let the good times roll
comp.graphics	rtrace there is a new version of the rtrace ray tracing package at asterix inescn pt in directory pub rtrace check the readme file rtrace now can use the suit toolkit to have a nice user interface compile it with dsuit or modify the makefile suit is available at suit uvacs cs virginia edu i have binaries of rtrace with suit for sun sparc sgi indigo and dos go please contact me if interested the mac rtrace port is in directory pub rtrace macintosh thanks to reid judd reid judd east sun com and greg ferrar gregt function mps ohio state edu small changes were done since version mainly now it is possible to discard backface polygons and triangles for fast preview the support program scn sff has been reworked to use temp files here goes a short description of current converters from cad molecular chemistry packages to the scn format the package programs are related as below those marked with have been modified irit scn irit nff nffclean nffp pp sol scn acad nff sff mol scn v scn sff v rtrace alchemy scn sff pic or ppm cpp pdb scn picmix pdb picblend ppmmix chem scn ppmblend chemical ds scn d studio iv scn iris inventor the dos port of rtrace is in pub rtrace pc rtrac arj utils arj and image arj see the readme file there requires djgpp go dos extender version included which can be found in directory pub pc djgpp and in many sites around netland there are also demo scenes manuals and all the source code please feel free to get it and use it hope you like it regards antonio costa o o i n e s c o antonio costa e mail acc asterix inescn pt o o comp graphics cad decnet porto acosta largo mompilher uucp mcvax o o porto portugal bell o o o let the good times roll
comp.graphics	re images of earth in apr unocal com stgprao st unocal com richard ottolini writes beware there is only one such copyrighted image and the company that generated is known to protect that copyright that image took hundreds of man hours to build from the source satellite images so it is unlikely that competing images will appear soon so they should sue the newspaper i got it from for printing it the article didn t say anything about copyrights louis i m hanging on your words living on your breath feeling with your skin will i always be here in your room dm
comp.graphics	re newsgroup split in article nerone apr sylvester cc utexas edu nerone ccwf cc utexas edu michael nerone writes in article quvdoinn e srvr engin umich edu tdawson engin umich edu chris herringshaw writes ch concerning the proposed newsgroup split i personally am not in ch favor of doing this i learn an awful lot about all aspects of ch graphics by reading this group from code to hardware to ch algorithms i just think making different groups out of this ch is a wate and will only result in a few posts a week per group ch i kind of like the convenience of having one big forum for ch discussing all aspects of graphics anyone else feel this way ch just curious i must agree there is a dizzying number of c s amiga newsgroups already in addition there are very few issues which fall cleanly into one of these categories also it is readily observable that the current spectrum of amiga groups is already plagued with mega crossposting thus the group split would not in all likelihood bring about a more structured environment michael nerone i shall do so with my customary lack of tact and internet address since you have asked for this you will be obliged nerone ccwf cc utexas edu to pardon it sagredo fictional char of galileo hi it might be nice to know what s possible on different hard ware platforms but usually the hard ware is fixed in my case either unix or dos pc so i m not much interested in amiga news in the case of software i won t get any comercial software mentioned in this newgroup to run on a unix platform so i m not interested in this information i would suggest to split the group i don t see the problem of cross posting then you need to read just newgroups with half the size but what would be more important is to have a faq this would reduce the traffic a lot sincerely gerhard i m writing this as a privat person not reflecting any opinions of the inst of hydromechanics the university of karlsruhe the land baden wuerttemberg the federal republic of germany and the european community the address and phone number below are just to get in touch with me everything i m saying writing and typing is always wrong statement necessary to avoid law suits dipl ing gerhard bosch m sc voice institute for hydromechanic fax university of karlsruhe kaiserstrasse karlsruhe germany internet bosch ifh hp bau verm uni karlsruhe de bitnet nd dkauni bitnet
comp.graphics	wanted info on image databases guess the subject says it all i would like references to any introductory material on image databases please send any pointers to mini point cs uwm edu thanx in advance mini mini point cs uwm edu mini csd csd uwm edu
comp.graphics	lyon lamb minivas control of abekas a we have a minivas and we want to record to an abekas a we have most of the functions working but when we go to set up a record the minivas hangs we are sending the abekas smpte time code does anyone have code we can compare to what we have done and is there and ftp site for minivas and abekas code gordon phillips glp cray com gordon phillips glp cray com
comp.graphics	re stay away from mag innovision in bb b d sar vm cc uakron edu d sar vm cc uakron edu steve rimar writes my mag mx f works fine mine was beautiful for a year and a half then it went foomp i bought a viewsonic fs instead another great monitor imho kevin martin sigma rahul net i gotta get me another hat
comp.graphics	re detecting double points in bezier curves in ia b w w oeinck waterland wlink nl ferdinand oeinck writes i m looking for any information on detecting and or calculating a double point and or cusp in a bezier curve see maureen stone and tony derose a geometric characterization of parametric cubic curves acm tog vol no july pp ron capelli ibm corp dept c ms p capelli vnet ibm com po box poughkeepsie ny there are no answers only cross references
comp.graphics	re help grasp cbw s vma smsu edu ext corey webb writes in article apr w baron edb tih no havardn edb tih no haavard nesse o a writes could anyone tell me if it s possible to save each frame of a gl grasp animation to gif jpg iff or any other picture formats if you have the grasp animation system then yes it s quite easy you simply use glib to extract the image each frame in a gl is actually a complete pcx or clp file then use one of many available utilities to convert it if you don t have the grasp package i m afraid i can t help you sorry by the way before you ask grasp graphics animation system for professionals is a commercial product that sells for just over us from most mail order companies i ve seen and no i don t have it corey webb there are several public domain utilities available at your usual archive site that allow extraction of single frames from a gl file check in the graphics directories under grasp the problem is that the clp files you generate cannot be decoded by any of the many pd format converters i have used any hint welcome let me know if you have problems locating the utilities hope it helps jacques oberto oberto genes icgeb trieste it
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of in r ms k ratatosk uninett no joachim kih no joachim lous writes does anyone have any other suggestions where the came from i don t know where douglas adams took it from but i m pretty sure he s the one who launched it in the guide since then it s been showing up all over the place douglas adams once said paraphrased from memory i just picked it it seemed like the sort of number you wouldn t be afraid to take home to meet your parents nice and even perfectly normal kevin martin sigma rahul net i gotta get me another hat
comp.graphics	re xv under ms dos in apr eicn etna ch no e mail address eicn etna ch writes do somenone know the solution to run xv any help would be apprecied i would guess that it requires x almost certainly dv x which commonly uses the go djgpp setup for its programs if you don t have dv x running you can t get anything which requires interfacing with x kevin martin sigma rahul net i gotta get me another hat
comp.graphics	postscript driver for gino does anybody know where i can get via anonymous ftp or otherwise a postscript driver for the graphics libraries gino verison a we are runnining on a vax vms and are looking for a way outputing our plots to a postscript file thanks in advance koon tang internet ktt unix bton ac uk department of mathematical sciences uucp uknet itri ktt university of brighton brighton bn gj u k
comp.graphics	info on medical imaging systems hi is anyone into medical imaging i have a good ray tracing background and i m interested in that field could you point me to some sources or better yet if you have any experience do you want to talk about what s going on or what you re working on thanks jason freund
comp.graphics	paradise vga i have a paradise svga with mb the c chip d the docs say that i can display the following modes x x k colours and x x k cols if i have the ramdac hicolor chip i have checked the board and i do have such a chip now the problem is that i can t get this mode to work graphics workshop claims that it can display bit images dithered down to bit colour with my board but it doesn t work i have tried writing some assembler code to get the modes working and i have found out that each pixel is addressed by a word bit but only the lower bits are considered this happens in x mode the x mode refuses to work i e remains in text mode could someone please help me tristan
comp.graphics	anti aliasing utility wanted i am currently using povray on mac and was wondering if anyone in netland knows of public domain anti aliasing utilities so that i can skip this step in pov very slow on this machine any suggestions opinions about post trace anti aliasing would be greatly appreciated helmut dotzlaw dept of biochemistry and molecular biology university of manitoba winnipeg canada dotzlaw ccu umanitoba ca
comp.graphics	another cview question was cview answers has anybody gotten cview to work in k or k color mode on a trident c hi color card at best the colors come out screwed up and at worst the program hangs i loaded the vesa driver and the same thing happens on different machines if it doesn t work on the trident does anybody know of a viewer that does thanx lisa
comp.graphics	re sun ipx root window display background picture i m not sure if you got the information you were looking for so i ll post it anyway for the general public to load an image on your root window add this line to the end of your xsession file xloadimage onroot fullscreen gif file name this is assuming of course you have the xloadimage client and as for the switches i think they pretty much explain what is going on if you leave out the the terminal locks till you kill it you already knew that though hope this helps daemon
comp.graphics	re wanted multi page gif in article apr worak kaist ac kr stjohn math kaist ac kr ryou seong joon writes hi i am searching for packages that could handle multi page gif files if you are looking for viewer try vpic lasse mits mdata fi
comp.graphics	ray tracer for ms dos sorry for the repeat of this request but does anyone know of a good free shareware program with which i can create ray traces and save them as bit mapped files of course if there is such a thing thanks in advance daemon
comp.graphics	re images of earth so they should sue the newspaper i got it from for printing it the article didn t say anything about copyrights i m sure the whole newspaper is copyrighted they could have gotten permission to use the image under their own copyright mark
comp.graphics	re images of earth in article apr cs ruu nl clldomps cs ruu nl louis van dompselaar writes in apr unocal com stgprao st unocal com richard ottolini writes beware there is only one such copyrighted image and the company that generated is known to protect that copyright that image took hundreds of man hours to build from the source satellite images so it is unlikely that competing images will appear soon so they should sue the newspaper i got it from for printing it the article didn t say anything about copyrights no explicit c is necessary if it the image is attributed to the geosphere company then there is a likelihood permission is has been given to reprint unlikely that the owner can or will go after individuals however interesting images do make their way into ads and computer demos that is when a pirate might get some flak this image is considered so interesting that many people would like to use it whenever some global map is needed so there is lots of temptation one mail person said since the source data satellite imagery is not copyrighted then the derived image can t be not true a new distinctive creative expression of the data can be protected this image is certainly fits such since no one else has taken the tremendous effort to re create it themselves precedent is a recent telephone book court case ma bell tried to copyright the data in their books and prevent competitors from copying it there are trick entries in the book but the court only permitted copyright of the expression of the data and not the data themselves you cant xerox and sell the telephone book there will be more attention to digital copyrights in the future and computer becomes a mass product and moguls such as bill gates are currently hoarding the digital copyrights i d prefer that geosphere put this data in the public domain because it is very interesting to me and others but that s the way things are
comp.graphics	re images of earth i downloaded an image of the earth re constructed from elevation data taken at degree increments the author not me wrote some c code included that read in the data file and generated b w and pseudo color images they work very well and are not incumbered by copyright they are at an aminet site near you called earth lha in the amiga pix misc area i refer you to the included docs for the details on how the author sorry i forget his name created these images the raw data is not included david david m ingebretsen evans sutherland computer corp dingebre thunder sim es com disclaimer the content of this message in no way reflects the opinions of my employer nor are my actions encouraged supported or acknowledged by my employer
comp.graphics	re need polygon splitting algo in article qvq b r t wampyr cc uow edu au g wampyr cc uow edu au coronado emmanuel abad writes the idea is to clip one polygon using another polygon not necessarily rectangular as a window my problem then is in finding out all the new vertices of the resulting subpolygons from the first one is this simply a matter of extending the usual algorithm whereby each of the edges of one polygon is checked against another polygon is there a simpler way comments welcome noel it depends on what kind of the polygons convex simple concave trouble concave with loop s inside big trouble of cause you can use the box test to avoid checking each edges according to my experience there is not a simple way to go the headache stuff is to deal with the special cases for example the overlapped lines yeh usc
comp.graphics	re images of earth in article apr cs ruu nl clldomps cs ruu nl louis van dompselaar writes so they should sue the newspaper i got it from for printing it the article didn t say anything about copyrights the newspaper itself is almost certainly copyrighted in its entirety newspapers generally employ legal staffs which make sure they get permission to use a copyrighted image or text did you do the same john john j humpal johnh jhunix hcf jhu edu short sig std disclaimer
comp.graphics	re comp graphics programmer in article qukk innd l no names nerdc ufl edu lioness maple circa ufl edu writes however that is almost overkill something more like this would probably make everyone a lot happier comp graphics programmer comp graphics hardware comp graphics apps comp graphics misc that s closer but i dislike apps software vs hardware would be better would that engulf alt graphics pixutils or would that be programmer i don t know if traffic is really heavy enough to warrant a newsgroup split look how busy comp graphics research is not it s true that a lot of the traffic here is rehashing faqs and discussing things that would probably be better diverted to system specific groups but i don t know whether a split would help or hurt that cause maybe we need a comp graphics rtfb for all those people who can t be bothered to read the fine books out there right dr rogers ab
comp.graphics	re stand alone editing suite in article qvkaeinngat shelley u washington edu eylerken stein u washington edu ken eyler writes i need some help we are upgrading our animation video editing stand we are looking into the different type of setups for a b roll and a cuts only station we would like this to be controlled by a computer brand doesnt matter but maybe mac or amiga low end to high end system setups would be very helpful if you have a system or use a system that might be of use could you mail me your system requirements what it is used for and all the hardware and software that will be necessary to set the system up if you need more info you can mail me at eylerken u washington edu thanks in advance ken eylerken u washington edu here at lewis and clark college we have recently installed a digital film system based on the mac quadra that does non linear full digital editing if you re considering such a system here are the pros and cons for the educational environment this system is excellent we use it to produce a variety of educational materials for disemination on our local network because this programming is going to be viewed on other macs the image quality is not as important as the ability to directly export the video to the net we also use it to produce orientiation and promotional video programs for use by the lewis clark community since these programs are not meant for commercial or broadcast use image quality is not critical the digital film system for those of you who are uninitiated is an a b roll digitizing system on one jpeg compression card it was promoted as an inexpensive online editing system with svhs quality supermac the maker of the card is trying to achieve this quality level but as yet has been unable to deliver our system produces near vhs quality at fields per second x overscan the card repeats every other field to get fields per second this results in a kind of super film look that some find distracting if you can get past this problem you ll find the adobe premier editing software quite enjoyable with which to work it produces thousands of different effects from crystalize filters to dve transitions to color matting because of its non linear nature editing is fast and easy if you ve ever used or seen used an avid or montage system you ll recognize the methodology and the user interface the total system with quadra megs of ram gig drive apple mon itor panasonic svhs edit deck audio gear cassette cd eq mixer etc composite monitor digital film card will set you back about for you video cowboys and girls this system will not output at a quality that will satisfy most of your clients even though you can perform more effects than a toasterhead can imagine an amiga based off line based system will look better we use both macs and amigas for our video work each for what each does best dan snodgrass media services lewis clark college portland
comp.graphics	xv problems please note the newsgroups recent discussion about xv s problems were held in some newsgroup here is some text users of xv might find interesting i have added more to text to this collection article so read on even you so my articles a while ago i hope author of xv corrects those problems as best he can so fine program xv is that it is worth of improving i have also minor ideas for bit xv e mail me for them any misundertanding of mine is understandable juhana kouhia clip deleted note that xv saves only bit rasterized images that means that the saved jpegs are just like jpeg to gif to jpeg quality also there s three kind of bit quantizers your final image quality depends on them too this were the situation when i read jpeg faq a while ago imho it is design error of xv there should not be such confusing errors in programs there s two errors xv allows the saving of bit rasterized image as jpeg even the original is bit saving bit rasterized image instead of original bit should be a special case xv allows saving the bit rasterized image made with any quantizer the main case should be that xv quantizes the image with the best quantizer available before saving the image to a file lousier quantizers should be just for viewing purposes and a special cases in saving the image if at all clip clip deleted it is limit of xv but not limit of design it is error in design it is error that bit quantized rasterized images are stored as jpegs jpeg is not designed to that as matter of fact i m sure when xv were designed bit displays were known it is not bad error to program a program for bit images only at that time but when bit image formats are included to program the whole design should be changed to support bit images that were not done and now we have the program violate jpeg design and any bit image format the program has human interface errors otherway is to drop saving images as jpegs or any bit format without clearly saying that it is special case and not expected in normal use deleted clip some new items follows clip i have seen that xv quantizes the image sometimes poorly with best option than with default option we have the reason surely is the quantizer used as best it is surprise the same than used in ppmquant if you remember i have tested some quantizers in that test i found that rlequant with default is best then comes djpeg fbmquant xv our default in that order in my test ppmquant suggeeded very poorly it actually gave image with bad artifacts i don t know is ppmquant improved any but i expect no so use of xv s best option is not very good idea i suggest that author of xv changes the quantizer to the one used in rlequant i m sure rle people gives permission another could be one used in imagemagick i have not tested it so i can say nothing about it clip clip some minor bugs in human interface are key pressings and cursor clicks goes to a buffer often it happens that i make click errors or press keyboard when cursor is in the wrong place it is very annoying when you have waited image to come about five minutes and then it is gone away immediately the buffer should be cleaned when the image is complete also good idea is to wait few seconds before activating keyboard and mouse for xv after the image is completed often it happens that image pops to the screen quickly just when i m writing something with editor or such those key pressings then go to xv and image has gone or something weird in the color editor when i turn a color meter and release it xv updates the images it is impossible to change all rgb values first and then get the updated image it is annoying wait image to be updated when the setting are not ready yet i suggest of adding an apply button to update the exchanges done clip
comp.graphics	re newsgroup split in article quvdoinn e srvr engin umich edu tdawson engin umich edu chris herringshaw writes from tdawson engin umich edu chris herringshaw subject newsgroup split date apr gmt concerning the proposed newsgroup split i personally am not in favor of doing this i learn an awful lot about all aspects of graphics by reading this group from code to hardware to algorithms i just think making different groups out of this is a wate and will only result in a few posts a week per group i kind of like the convenience of having one big forum for discussing all aspects of graphics anyone else feel this way just curious daemon actuallay i don t but on the other hand i don t support the idea of having one newsgroup for every aspect of graphics programming as proposed by brian in his reply to my original posting i would suggest a looser structure more like a comp graphics programmer comp graphics hw and sw the reason for making as few groups as possible is for the same reason you say we shouldn t spilt up not to get to few postings every day i takes to much time to browse through all postings just to find two or three i m interested in i understand and agree when you say you want all aspects of graphics in one meeting i agree to some extension i see news as a forum to exchange ideas help others or to be helped i think this is difficult to achive if there are so many different things in one meeting good evening netters arff also for the not religous confessor there is a mystery of higher values who s birth mankind to the last builds upon they are indisputible and often disregarded seldom you hear them beeing prized as seldom as you hear a seeing man prizeing what he sees per lagerkvist the fist free translation from swedish andreas arff andreasa dhhalden no
comp.graphics	beta testers wanted for graphics libraries visual numerics inc formerly imsl and precision visuals is in the process of securing sites for beta testing x exponent graphics and c exponent graphics both x exponent graphics and c exponent graphics are gl products the beta period is from april through june the platform is hp running under os with ansi c compiler the media will be sent on mm dat cartridge tape here are some of the key facts about the two products x exponent graphics key facts complete collection of high level d and d application plot types available through a large collection of x resources cstom widget for osf motif developers built in interactive gui for plot customization easily implemented callbacks for customized application feedback xeg being built on the xt toolkit provides the user a widget library that conforms to the expected syntax and standards familar to x programmers xeg will also be sold as a bundle with visual edge s uim x product this will enable user to use a gui builder to create the graphical layout of an application c exponent graphics key facts written in c for c application programmers developers the library is written in c and the programming interface conforms to c standards taking advantage fo the most desirable features of c build in gui for interactive plot customization through mouse interaction the user has complete interactive graph output control with over graphics attributes for plot customization large collection of high level application functions for two call graph creation a wide variety of d and d plot types are available with minimal programming effort user ability to interrupt and control the x event by controlling the x event loop when the user use the mouse to manipulate the plot the user can allow ceg to control the event loop or the user can control the event loop if anyone is interested in beta testing either of the products please contact wendy hou at visual numerics via email at hou imsl com or call jaclyn brandt jbrandt neosoft com
comp.graphics	radiosity i am looking for source code for the radiosity method i don t know what kind of machine you want it for but the program radiance comes with c source code i don t have ftp access so i couldn t tell you where to get it via that way canada remote systems toronto ontario
comp.graphics	re newsgroup split in article nerone apr sylvester cc utexas edu nerone ccwf cc utexas edu michael nerone writes from nerone ccwf cc utexas edu michael nerone subject re newsgroup split date apr in article quvdoinn e srvr engin umich edu tdawson engin umich edu chris herringshaw writes ch concerning the proposed newsgroup split i personally am not in ch favor of doing this i learn an awful lot about all aspects of ch graphics by reading this group from code to hardware to ch algorithms i just think making different groups out of this ch is a wate and will only result in a few posts a week per group ch i kind of like the convenience of having one big forum for ch discussing all aspects of graphics anyone else feel this way ch just curious i must agree there is a dizzying number of c s amiga newsgroups already in addition there are very few issues which fall cleanly into one of these categories also it is readily observable that the current spectrum of amiga groups is already plagued with mega crossposting thus the group split would not in all likelihood bring about a more structured environment michael nerone i shall do so with my customary lack of tact and internet address since you have asked for this you will be obliged nerone ccwf cc utexas edu to pardon it sagredo fictional char of galileo maybe i should point out that we are not talking about c s amiga only comp graphics arff also for the not religous confessor there is a mystery of higher values who s birth mankind to the last builds upon they are indisputible and often disregarded seldom you hear them beeing prized as seldom as you hear a seeing man prizeing what he sees per lagerkvist the fist free translation from swedish andreas arff andreasa dhhalden no
comp.graphics	coreldraw bitmap to scodal does anyone know of software that will allow you to convert coreldraw cdr files containing bitmaps to scodal as this is the only format our bureau s filmrecorder recognises jeff lyall inst geo nuc sci ltd lower hutt new zealand
comp.graphics	re fast polygon routine needed in article c nf t gsq news cso uiuc edu osprey ux cso uiuc edu lucas adamski writes in article apr sophia smith edu orourke sophia smith edu joseph o rourke writes a fast polygon routine to do what to draw polygons of course its a vga mode h x game done in c and asm i need a faster way to draw concave polygons that the method i have right now which is very slow what kind of polygons shaded texturemapped hm more comes into play with fast routines than just polygons it would be nice to know exaclty what system vga is a start but what processor and a few of the specifics of the implementation you need to give more info if you want to get any answers p ian romanick dancing fool of epsilon were the contained thoughts opinions epn ntsc quality best psu would probably not agree with them look i don t know anything about douche but i do know anti freeze when i see it the dead milkmen
comp.graphics	more on radiosity in article apr aragorn unibe ch you write let s be serious i m working on a radiosity package written in c i would like to make it public domain i ll announce it in c g the minute i finished it that were the good news the bad news it ll take another months at least to finish it are you using the traditional radiosity method progressive refinement or something else in your package if you need to project patches on the hemi cube surfaces what technique are you using do you have hardware to facilitate the projection in the meantime you may have a look at the file radiosity code tar z located at compute cc ncsu edu what are the guest username and password for this ftp site there are some other locations have a look at archie to get the nearest hope that ll help yours stephan thanks stephan josephine
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of joachim kih no joachim lous writes ulrich galki toppoint de wrote according to the tiff specification the tiff version number bytes has been chosen for its deep philosophical significance last week i read the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy and rotfl the second time after millions of years of calculation the second best computer of all time reveals that is the answer to the question about life the universe and everything is this actually how they picked the number yes does anyone have any other suggestions where the came from at this moment the king who had been for some time busily writing in his note book called out silence and read out from his book rule forty two all persons more than a mile high to leave the court everybody looked at alice i m not a mile high said alice you are said the king nearly two miles high added the queen well i sha n t go at any rate said alice besides that s not a regular rule you invented it just now it s the oldest rule in the book said the king then it ought to be number one said alice marc kaufman kaufman cs stanford edu
comp.graphics	re another cview question wa in reply to apr rigel tamu edu lmp rigel tamu edu preston lisa m i have a trident card and fullview works real gif jpg try it dave
comp.graphics	univesa driver i got the univesa driver available over the net i thought that finally my meg oak board would be able to show x colors unfortunately a program still says that i can t do this is it the fault of the program fractint or is there something wrong with my card univesa a free driver available over the net that makes many boards vesa compatible
comp.graphics	windows imagine i sent off for my copy today snail mail hope to get it back in about ten days impulse said a week i hope it s as good as they claim jim nobles hope i have what it takes to use it
comp.graphics	re fast polygon routine needed in article pdxgate uucp idr rigel cs pdx edu ian d romanick writes what kind of polygons shaded texturemapped hm more comes into play with fast routines than just polygons it would be nice to know exaclty what system vga is a start but what processor and a few of the specifics of the implementation you need to give more info if you want to get any answers p i don t want texture mapped cause if i did i d asked for them just a simple and fast routine to do filled polygons as for the processor it d be for a minimum of a maybe if i can t find a good one for s ideally i want a polyn function that can clip to a user defined viewport and write to an arbitrary location in memory of course the chances of finding something like that are pretty remote so i guess i d need the source with it oh and i guess it would need to be in asm otherwise it d be too slow i ve seen some polygon routines in c and they ve all been waaay too slow its for a d vector graphics program i ve been hunting high and low for a polyn function in asm and i can t find one anywhere that i can use i ve found one or two polyn functions but my asm is pretty bad so i won t even try to rewrite them lucas
comp.graphics	ribbon information does anyone out there have or know of any kind of utility program for ribbons ribbons are a popular representation for d shape i am trying to find symmetry axis in a given any d shape using ribbons any suggestions will be greatly appreciated how to start program thanks very much in advance hoi yoo engr ucf edu
comp.graphics	need rgb data from saved images could someone please help me find a program or figure out how to extract a li st of r g b values for each pixel in an image i can convert between tga and s everal other popular formats but i need the r g b values for use in a program i am writing thanks for the help
comp.graphics	re fast polygon routine needed osprey ux cso uiuc edu lucas adamski writes in article apr sophia smith edu orourke sophia smith edu joseph o rourke writes in article c n x b l news cso uiuc edu osprey ux cso uiuc edu lucas adamski writes but i m looking for a fast polygon routine to be used in a d game a fast polygon routine to do what to draw polygons of course its a vga mode h x game hi i ve come across a fast triangle fill draw routine for mode h by calling this routine enough times you have a fast polygon drawing routine i think i ftp ed from wuarchive wustl edu pub msdos uploads programming i have a copy of it so i reupload it there the triangle txt file has this to say c and inline assembly source for a vga mode h triangle drawer stephen quan quan sol surv utas edu au tel local research fellow computer scientist fax local centre for spatial information systems tel university of tasmania australia fax
comp.graphics	fast wireframe graphics i am working on a program to display d wireframe models with the user being able to arbitrarily change any of the viewing parameters also the wireframe objects are also going to have dynamic attributes so that they can move around while the user is exploring the wireframe world to do this i am thinking of using the srgp package described in the van dam foley and feiner book but i was wondering if there was another pd graphics package out there which was faster i would like to make the program as fast as possible so that it provides satisfactory real time performance on a sun ipx ideally i m looking for a pd graphics package which will allow me to open a new window under x and allow me to draw lines within the window also it would also need to have some sort of event driven interaction handling since the user is going to move around the wireframe models using the keyboard if you know or wrote such a package i would be grateful if you could direct me to a ftp site which contains the package thank you yong su kim class of internet yk cunixb cc columbia edu columbia college columbia university or ykim cs columbia edu
comp.graphics	re sgi sales practices was crimson was kubota announcement in qjrec qem network ucsd edu spl ivem ucsd edu steve lamont writes what i am annoyed about is the fact that we were led to believe that we would be able to upgrade to a multiprocessor version of the crimson without the assistance of a fork lift truck it should have been made fairly clear that the most crimson would ever get was a old style mhz cpu upgrade certainly this was mentioned on comp sys sgi on more than one occasion as being likely if our sales folks were saying otherwise they were either confused or less than honest ethical or somebody further up the chain inside sgi was misleading them i m also annoyed about being sold several personal irises at a previous site on the understanding that architecture would be around for a while rather than being flushed there were versions although admittedly the came out at the same time as the over a period of years the chassis simply couldn t be pushed any further i d say years was a pretty good lifespan myself for a system design in this day and age getting the to work caused a lot of gray hairs in both the hardware and product design groups we would have been out of our minds to push it further and i know that was made clear almost from the day the started shipping we had one last kicker in the form of the elan graphics which made graphics versions over its lifespan which i also think is pretty good now i understand that sgi is responsible to its investors and has to keep showing a positive quarterly bottom line odd that i found myself pressured on at least two occasions to get the business on the books just before the end of the quarter but i m just a little tired of getting boned in the process please by all means send a complaint letter through sgi support or sales on your concerns there should be no reason for sales folks to misrepresent future upgrades to customers sure sometimes there will be confusion for a while over whether an upgrade will be available but that shouldn t last too long and doesn t seem to be what you are referring to yes the sales folks do get bonus s at the end of some all quarters but that is pretty common industry wide and sometimes that can result in good deals for customers sometimes it probably pushes folks into systems that aren t what they need i m sure but nobody is forcing you to buy at end of quarter after all maybe it s because my lab buys sgis in onesies and twosies so we aren t entitled to a peek under the covers as the big kids nasa for instance are this lab and i suspect that a lot of other labs they don t get all that long a lead time either although certainly they get presentations on possible new products and their opinions may well influence the end product but that also is life in the industry we can t design systems that meet just their needs or we won t sell too many systems after all which is not to say that we don t have some niche products like reality engine and organizations doesn t have a load of money to spend on computers every year so we can t be out buying new systems on a regular basis the boxes that we buy now will have to last us pretty much through the entire grant period of five years and in some case beyond that means that i need to buy the best piece of equipment that i can when i have the money not some product that was built to paraphrase one previous poster s words to fill a niche to compete with some other vendor i m going to be looking at this box for the next five years and every time i look at it i m going to think about sgi and how i could have better spent my money actually your money since we re supported almost entirely by federal tax dollars but surely you don t expect a system you buy now for a five year period to be constantly upgradable over that entire five year period that s a rather unreasonable expectation in my experience with workstations microcomputers supported and parts available yes but certainly not upgradable to the latest and greatest now you ll have to pardon me while i go off and hiss and fume in a corner somewhere and think dark libelous thoughts i missed your first posting but as i say by all means share your frustation with somebody at a level inside sgi where it might have an effect not immediate i m sure but complaints aren t going to be ignored and may affect future plans if we hear similar things from more than one person site all of the above is as usual my personal opinion not sgi s let no one tell me that silence gives consent dave olson because whoever is silent dissents silicon graphics inc maria isabel barreno olson sgi com ps i start my sabbatical may ask those questions now
comp.graphics	pascal fractals jr eve albany edu jr albnyvms bitnet go heavy or go home
comp.graphics	re detecting double points in bezier curves in article apr kpc com jbulf balsa berkeley edu jeff bulf writes in article ia b w w oeinck waterland wlink nl ferdinan oeinck waterland wlink nl ferdinand oeinck writes i m looking for any information on detecting and or calculating a double point and or cusp in a bezier curve an algorithm literature reference or mail about this is very appreciated there was a very useful article in one of the issues of transactions on graphics i believe maureen stone was one of the authors sorry not to be more specific i don t have the reference here with me stone derose geometric characterization of parametric cubic curves acm trans graphics manocha canny detecting cusps and inflection points in curves computer aided geometric design pekka siltanen
comp.graphics	re coreldraw bitmap to scodal my coreldraw whatever write scodl files directly look under file export on the main menu rick
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of marc t kaufman kaufman xenon stanford edu wrote does anyone have any other suggestions where the came from at this moment the king who had been for some time busily writing in his note book called out silence and read out from his book rule forty two all persons more than a mile high to leave the court everybody looked at alice i m not a mile high said alice you are said the king nearly two miles high added the queen well i sha n t go at any rate said alice besides that s not a regular rule you invented it just now it s the oldest rule in the book said the king then it ought to be number one said alice does anybody have a collection of occurances of before and after the guide if not i would like to receive any odd bits you might know postings to alt fan douglas adams l one thing is for sure the sheep is not a creature of the earth joachim kih no the back masking on haaden ii from exposure by robert fripp
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of joachim lous joachim kih no wrote ulrich galki toppoint de wrote does anyone have any other suggestions where the came from yep here s a theory that i once heard bandied around rather than thinking of the number think of the sound for tea two a sort of anagram on tea for two two for tea for tea two peter peter hauke brunel university se psh brunel ac uk
comp.graphics	re pascal fractals apparently my editor didn t do what i wanted it to do so i ll try again i m looking for any programs or code to do simple animation and or drawing using fractals in turbopascal for an ibm thanks in advance jr eve albany edu jr albnyvms bitnet go heavy or go home
comp.graphics	irit to pov has anybody made a converter from irit s irt or dat format to pov format thanks sebastian schmidt tu ilmenau institut f praktische informatik
comp.graphics	re rtrace comp graphics cad cgcad bart inescn pt wrote there is a new version of the rtrace ray tracing package at asterix inescn pt in directory pub rtrace check the readme file cant seem to reach the site from over here ping icmp net unreachable from gateway nsn fix pe sura net for icmp from ccws brunel ac uk to is it possible for you to upload to a more mainstream ftp place
comp.graphics	re help grasp quoted from apr genes icgeb trieste it by oberto genes icgeb trieste it jacques oberto file check in the graphics directories under grasp the problem is that the clp files you generate cannot be decoded by any of the many pd format converters i have used any hint welcome the gl p lzh stuff under gfx show on the aminet sites includes a utility called pic hl that is a filter for hamlab that can handle the most commonly used kinds of pic and clp files the biggest problem is that the clp files don t usually contain a palette so you need to convert a pic with the right palette first which creates a ram picpal file and then convert the clp files jacques oberto oberto genes icgeb trieste it john bickers tap jbickers templar actrix gen nz radioactivity it s in the air for you and me kraftwerk
comp.graphics	pbm plus sources where hi everybody can anyone name an anonymous ftp site where i can find the sources of the pbm plus package portable bit gray pixel map i would like to compile and run it on a sun sparcstation thanks
comp.graphics	re fractals what good are they in article mdpyssc fs mcc ac uk mdpyssc fs mcc ac uk sue cunningham writes we have been using iterated systems compression board to compress pathology images and are getting ratios of to without too much loss in quality it is taking about mins per image to compress on a mhz but decompression is almost real time on a in software alone how does that compare with jpeg on the same images and hardware as far as size speed and image quality are concerned despite my skeptical and sometimes nearly rabid postings criticizing barnsley and company i am very interested in the technique if i weren t i probably wouldn t be so critical ab
comp.graphics	re univesa driver in article news duke edu seth north acpub duke edu seth wandersman writes i got the univesa driver available over the net i thought that finally my meg oak board would be able to show x colors unfortunately a program still says that i can t do this is it the fault of the program fractint or is there something wrong with my card univesa a free driver available over the net that makes many boards vesa compatible whats this x color mode asking a lot of your hardware don lewis djlewis ualr edu
comp.graphics	re more on radiosity in article yuma acns colostate edu xz longs lance colostate edu xia zhao writes in article apr aragorn unibe ch you write let s be serious i m working on a radiosity package written in c i would like to make it public domain i ll announce it in c g the minute i finished it that were the good news the bad news it ll take another months at least to finish it are you using the traditional radiosity method progressive refinement or something else in your package my package is based on several articles about non standard radiosity and some unpublished methods the main articles are cohen chen wallace greenberg a progressive refinement approach to fast radiosity image generation computer graphics siggraph v no pp august silion puech a general two pass method integrating specular and diffuse reflection computer graphics siggraph v no pp july if you need to project patches on the hemi cube surfaces what technique are you using do you have hardware to facilitate the projection i do not use hemi cubes i have no special hardware sun sparcstation in the meantime you may have a look at the file radiosity code tar z located at compute cc ncsu edu what are the guest username and password for this ftp site use anonymous as username and your e mail address as password there are some other locations have a look at archie to get the nearest hope that ll help yours stephan thanks stephan josephine stephan stephan amann sig computer graphics university of berne switzerland amann iam unibe ch tel fax projects radiosity raytracing computer graphics
comp.graphics	xv for ms dos hi this is the response for wayne michael and certainly for other one i m sorry for the late of the answer but i couldn t find xv for msdos cause i forgot the address but i ve retrieve it posting this answer here in comp graphics cause i can t use e mail not yet my bad english cause i m a swiss and my language is french after a long time i retrieve the address where you can find xv for dos site omnigate clarkson edu aliases grape ecs clarkson edu number pub msdos djgpp pub it s xv zip i think certainly you read the other answer from kevin martin he write about dv x what is it could someone answer thanx in advance pascal perret perret eicn etna ch ecole d ing nieur ets not available at this time le locle suisse enjoy computer
comp.graphics	d studio v any differences with previous version are there significant differences between v and v thank you for helping marc e mail marc fombaron ufrima imag fr marc fombaron grenoble
comp.graphics	re coreldraw bitmap to scodal does anyone know of software that will allow you to convert coreldraw cdr files containing bitmaps to scodal as this is the only format our bureau s filmrecorder recognises jeff lyall i used this combination for a while a qcr z recorder i think and as far as i remember corel can export in scodal scd format just select export on the main file menu this may not be implemented in earlier versions of course in which case you re on your own also i seem to think that the s w for the qcr z at the time did strange and very undesirable things if any part of the pic was outside the screen area on corel i once spent an afternoon painfully discovering that one pixel had somehow strayed off screen causing my whole slide to be blank the qcr z also couldn t handle grad fill over grad fill so if you use a graduated colour background if you then grad fill an object on top of this the fill appears on the final slide as a circle i think and totally ignores the shape of the object being filled of course if the recorder isn t a qcr you can ignore all this and feel suitably cheers toby toby freeman glasgow university freemant uk ac glasgow dcs
comp.graphics	oak vga mb please i needd vesa tsr hi there well i have a with svga mb oak chip and i don t have vesa tsr program for this card i need it please if anybody can help me mail me at lulagos araucaria cec uchile cl thanks mackk o o u ack
comp.graphics	pc paintbrush iv i am trying to configure zsoft s pc paintbrush iv for use with my logitech scanman hand scanner but i can t get paintbrush to acknowledge the scanner is there anybody out there using paintbrush with a scanner if so can you help me out thanks luis nobrega the file bank bbs pcboard v a e usr hst ds nodes rime internet largest clipper file collection in the world
comp.graphics	re xv for ms dos noe mailaddress eicn etna ch wrote i m sorry for the late of the answer but i couldn t find xv for msdos cause i forgot the address but i ve retrieve it posting this answer here in comp graphics cause i can t use e mail not yet my bad english cause i m a swiss and my language is french if french is your language try counting in french in stead maybe it will work better l one thing is for sure the sheep is not a creature of the earth joachim kih no the back masking on haaden ii from exposure by robert fripp
comp.graphics	re cview answers cyberspace buddha cb wixer bga com wrote renew blade stack urc tue nl rene walter writes over where it places its temp files it just places them in its current directory i have to beg to differ on this point as the batch file i use to launch cview cd s to the dir where cview resides and then invokes it every time i crash cview the byte temp file is found in the root dir of the drive cview is on i posted this as well before the cview expert apparently he thought he knew better matthew zenkar mz moscom com
comp.graphics	image of pictures hi there i am looking for advice on software hardware package for making storing and processing of pictures the ideal software would allow me to cahnge size of the picture edit it it means add text below above and the most important is it would have dos command interface thank you in advance emanuel marciniak the bank of new york
comp.graphics	help needed on hidden line removal i am looking for some information of hidden line removal using roberts algorithm something with code or pseudo code would be especially helpful i am required to do this for a class due monday we have very little time to implement these changes it is a very fast paced class the notes given in class leave a lot to be desired so i would vastly appreciate any help actually any algorithm would be nice roberts or no the main problem is two objects intersecting in x and y dimensions need to know which lines to clip off so that one object will appear in front of another if you can give me an ftp address and filename or even the name of a good book i d really appreciate it thanks brian raynor
comp.graphics	the otis project ftp sites for original art and images the otis project the operative term is stimulate this file last updated what is otis otis is here for the purpose of distributing original artwork and photographs over the network for public perusal scrutiny and distribution digital immortality the basic idea behind digital immortality is that computer networks are here to stay and that anything interesting you deposit on them will be around near forever the gifs and jpgs of today will be the artifacts of a digital future perhaps they ll be put in different formats perhaps only surviving on backup tapes but they ll be there and someone will dig them up if that doesn t interest you otis also offers a forum for critique and exhibition of your works a virtual art gallery that never closes and exists in an information dimension where your submissions will hang as wallpaper on thousands of glowing monitors suddenly life is breathed into your work and by merit of it s stimulus it will travel the globe on pulses of light and electrons spectators are welcome also feel free to browse the gallery and let the artists know what you think of their efforts keep your own copies of the images to look at when you ve got the gumption that s what they re here for where otis currently as of has two ftp sites projects otis the uwi site sunsite unc edu pub multimedia pictures otis the sunsite you can also gopher to this site for otis as well merely anonymous ftp to either site on internet and change to the appropriate directory don t forget to get busy and use the bin command to make sure you re in binary otis has also been spreading to some dial up bbs systems around north america the following systems have a substancial supply of otistuff underground cafe omaha lines cyberden sanfran usenet waffle iron how do you contribute what happens is you draw a pretty picture or take a lovely photo get it scanned into an image file then either ftp put it in the contrib incoming directory or use uuencode to send it to me email addresses at eof in email after the image is received it will be put into the correct directory computer originated works are also welcome otis directories house two types of image files gif and jpg gif and jpg files require oddly enough a gif or jpg viewer to see these viewers are available for all types of computers at most large ftp sites around internet jpg viewers are a bit tougher to find if you can t find one but do have a gif viewer you can obtain a jpg to gif conversion program which will change jpg files to a standard gif format otis also accepts animation files when you submit image files please send me email at the same time stating information about what you uploaded and whether it is to be used in publications or other projects or if it is merely for people to view also include some biographical information on yourself we ll be having info files on each contributing artist and their works you can also just upload a text file of info about yourself instead of emailing if you have pictures but no scanner there is hope merely send copies to the otis project c o ed stastny po bx omaha ne i will either scan them myself or get them to someone who will scan them include an ample sase if you want your stuff back also include information on each image preferably a line description of the image that we can include in the infofile in the directory where it s finally put if you have preferences as to what the images are to be named include those as well conversely if you have a scanner and would like to help out please contact me and we ll arrange things if you want to submit your works by disk peachy merely send a disk to the above address omaha and a sase if you want your disk back this is good for people who don t have direct access to encoders or ftp but do have access to a scanner we accept disks in either mac or ibm compatible format if possible please submit image files as gif or jpg if you can t we can convert from most formats we d just rather not have to at senders request we can also fill disks with as much otis as they can stand even if you don t have stuff to contribute you can send a blank disk and an sase or for disk postage and packing to get a slab o otis as of we re at about megabytes of files and growing email me for current archive size and directory distribution the images distributed by the otis project may be distributed freely on the condition that the original filename is kept and that it is not altered in any way save to convert from one image format to another in fact we encourage files to be distributed to local bulletin boards and such if you could please transport the appropriate text files along with the images it would also be nice if you d send me a note when you did post images from otis to your local bbs i just want to keep track of them so participants can have some idea how widespread their stuff is it s the purpose of otis to get these images spread out as much as possible if you have the time please upload a few to your favorite bbs system or even just post this info file there it would be keen of you use if you want to use any of the works you find on the otis directory you ll have to check to see if permission has been granted and the stipulations of the permission such as free copy of publication or full address credit you will either find this in the rm file for the image or series of images or in the artists directory under the artists name if permission isn t explicitly given then you ll have to contact the artist to ask for it if no info is available email me ed cwis unomaha edu and i ll get in contact with the artist for you or give you their contact information when you do use permitted work it s always courteous to let the artist know about it perhaps even send them a free copy or some such compensation for their files naming images please keep the names of your files in dos format that means keep the filename before jpg or gif to eight characters or less the way i usually do it is to use the initials of the artist plus a three or four digit code for the series of images plus the series number thus leonardo devinci s fifth mechanical drawing would be something like ldmek gif or ldmek jpg or ldmech gif etc keeping the names under characters assures that the filename will remain intact on all systems creating image files when creating image files be sure to at least include your name somewhere on or below the picture this gives people a reference in case they d like to contact you you may also want to include a title address or other information you d like people to know hmmm that s about it for now more guidelines will be added as needed your input is expected disclaimer the otis project has no connection to the church of otis a sumerian deity or it s followers be they pope priest or ezine administrator we do take sacrifices and donations however disclaimer the otis project is here for the distribution of original image files the files will go to the public at large it s possible as with any form of mass media that someone could unscrupulously use your images for financial gain unless you ve given permission for that it s illegal otis takes no responsibility for this in simple terms all rights revert to the author artist to leave an image on otis is to give permission for it to be viewed copied and distributed electronically if you don t want your images distributed all over don t upload them to leave an image on otis is not giving permission to have it used in any publication or broadcast that incurs profit this includes but is not limited to magazines newsletters clip art software screen printed clothing etc you must give specific permission for this sort of usage remember the operative term is stimulate if you know of people that d be interested in this sort of thing get them involved kick m in the booty offer them free food whatever e ed cwis unomaha edu ed sunsite unc edu ed stastny otis project end process sound news and arts po bx ftp sunsite unc edu pub multimedia pictures otis omaha ne projects otis email ed cwis unomaha edu ed sunsite unc edu
comp.graphics	et w vl bus cards does anyone know of a vl bus video card based on the et w card if so how much will it cost where can i get one does it come with more than mb of ram and what is the windows performance like
comp.graphics	re newsgroup split chris herringshaw tdawson engin umich edu wrote concerning the proposed newsgroup split i personally am not in favor of doing this i learn an awful lot about all aspects of graphics by reading this group from code to hardware to algorithms i just think making different groups out of this is a wate and will only result in a few posts a week per group i kind of like the convenience of having one big forum for discussing all aspects of graphics anyone else feel this way just curious daemon yes i also like knowing where to go to ask a question without getting hell for putting it in the wrong newsgroup phil martin
comp.graphics	sources for shading wanted i m looking for shading methods and algorithms please let me know if you know where to get source codes for that thanks a lot thomas thomas braun universitaet karlsruhe e mail s braun iravcl ira uka de thomas braun university karlsruhe germany email s braun iravcl ira uka de ukay dkauni bitnet
comp.graphics	re fast polygon routine needed sol surv utas edu au stephen quan writes but i m looking for a fast polygon routine to be used in a d game a fast polygon routine to do what to draw polygons of course its a vga mode h x game hi i ve come across a fast triangle fill draw routine for mode h by calling this routine enough times you have a fast polygon drawing routine i think i ftp ed from wuarchive wustl edu pub msdos uploads programming i have a copy of it so i reupload it there the triangle txt file has this to say c and inline assembly source for a vga mode h triangle drawer another source there s a poly blitter for mode y mode x in x at sunee uwaterloo ca also there is rend an even faster d renderer with vr extensions my life is hardware dave stampe my destiny is software dstampe psych toronto edu my cpu is wetware dstampe sunee uwaterloo ca am i a techno psychologist or just a psycho engineer
comp.graphics	one day graphics composites seminar sampe ncga the university of akron and nasa lewis research center is sponsoring computers and composites a one day seminar devoted to practical applications of computer workstations for efficient processing design and manufacture of composites may at the university of akron akron ohio speakers on advancement in graphics visualization dr jay horowitz nasa integrated product development with mr michael r cowen network workstations sikorski aircraft structural analysis mr brian fite nasa stereolithography mr jason williams penn state erie molecular and physical modeling dr vassilios galiatsato of polymer curing university of akron process modeling of polymer matrix composites dr ram upadhyay ge corporate r d registration fees advance on site includes box lunch contact gary roberts nasa lewis research center or write sampe regional seminar c o gary roberts nasa lewis research center brookpark rd ms cleveland ohio or email to me and i ll get it to gary chris johnston materials engineer nasa lewis research center internet chris sarah lerc nasa gov brookpark rd ms cleveland oh usa resistance is futile
comp.graphics	ray tracing spline surfaces hi net due to further investigation i would like to study the following article peterson ray tracing general b splines proc acm mountain regional conference april unfortunately i didn t find it in any library s register if there is anyone having access to this paper or knowing about a library containing those proceedings preferrably in germany please let me know any help would be appreciated thanks a lot joerg haber joerg haber haberj mathematik tu muenchen de mathematisches institut tu muenchen
comp.graphics	hitatchi raster format hrf our shop uses a package called cadcore very good to scan and subsequently vectorize original maps into digital maps the problem is that once the raster file is loaded into the cadcore package a header is added to the hrf file which makes it unreadable by the supplied converter we would like to be able to ship some of the already altered raster images for further use on our workstations so here are my questions what is the hitachi format i need this format so i can recognize precisely what to strip out i strongly suspect that it s a compressed format if so then t might not be possible for me to strip out the offending header are there any unix packages that read and recognize hrf it would be really nice to find some sort of hrftopbm converter out there i ve already searched some of the more well known ftp sites which contain graphics formats documentation with no luck so if you know or knwo someone who knows please email thanks
comp.graphics	windows bmp to sun raster or others hi anyone has a converter from bmp to any format that xview or xv can handle this converter must run unix i looked at the faq and downloaded several packages but had no luck thanks in advance ed echen burn ee washington edu
comp.graphics	re cview answers in article moscom com mz moscom com matthew zenkar writes cyberspace buddha cb wixer bga com wrote renew blade stack urc tue nl rene walter writes over where it places its temp files it just places them in its current directory i have to beg to differ on this point as the batch file i use to launch cview cd s to the dir where cview resides and then invokes it every time i crash cview the byte temp file is found in the root dir of the drive cview is on i posted this as well before the cview expert apparently he thought he knew better matthew zenkar mz moscom com are we talking about colorview for dos here i have version and it writes the temp files to its own current directory what later versions do i admit that i don t know assuming your expert referenced above is talking about the version that i have then i d say he is correct is the colorview for unix what is being discussed just mixed up confused befuddled but genuinely and entirely curious uncle fester what god wants god wants gigolos god gets god wants giraffes god help us all god wants politics thester nyx cs du edu god wants a good laugh
comp.graphics	photoshop for windows i am looking for comments from people who have used heard about photoshop for windows is it good how does it compare to the mac version is there a lot of bugs i heard the windows version needs fine tuning any comments would be greatly appreciated thank you andre boisvert beaver rot qc ca
comp.graphics	graphics libraries i am interested in a d d graphics library which will allow our design team to write graphics software for unix workstations and be as portable as possible eventually this software will have to be moved to microsoft windows it is my opinion that a good api with hooks to pex underneath would prove most portable does anyone out there have any experience with figaro form tgs or hoops from ithaca software i would appreciate any comments claye hart claye k hart georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism ch internet claye hart gtri gatech edu
comp.graphics	scf files help needed i ve got an old demo disk that i need to view it was made using rix softworks the files on the two diskette set end with scf the demo was vga resolution colors but i don t know the spatial resolution first problem when i try to run the demo the screen has two black bars that cut across horizontally the screen in the top third and bottom third of the screen the bars are about inch wide other than this the demo the animation part seems to be running fine second problem i can t find any graphics program that will open and display these files i have a couple of image conversion programs none mention scf files the system i am using clone diamond speedstar sony monitor any suggestions thank you t castro tlc cx com
comp.graphics	question video projector i am setting up a video aid for a computer room for the teacher to share his display with the class i have seen people using video projector tv sets and large monitor to do presentations before i am told that there are three ways to connect video projector composite y c rgb can anyone explain to me the difference and their likely costs please reply to my inetnet e mail account as well as posting in bulletin u sparc nuc edu tw i also like to know if there are telnet or kermit for windows tim chen
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of silly well is binary and who would forget that its the answer to the question of life the universe and everything else that is to quote douglas adams in a round about way of course the question has not yet been discovered mark a cartwright n snp university of texas austin computation center graphics facility markc emx utexas edu markc sirius cc utexas edu markc hermes chpc utexas edu x pp asel a often in error never in doubt b this situation has no gravity i would like a refund please
comp.graphics	looking for wmf converter i m looking for any leads to the source of a good windows meta file converter or interpreter i need this for use outside the windows environment pd sources preferred but not a requirement please reply to the address below david buchholz internet buck ileaf com product manager uucp uunet leafusa buck interleaf inc voice x
comp.graphics	wanted super mm projector with sounds i am looking for super mm projector with sounds if anybody out there has one for sale send email with the name of brand condition of the projector and price for sale to kimd rpi edu it must have sound capability danny kimd rpi edu
comp.graphics	coreldraw bitmap to scodal yes i am aware coreldraw exports in scodal version did it quite well apart from a few hassles with radial fills version revb is better but if you try to export in scodal with a bitmap image included in the drawing it will say something like cannot export scodal with bitmap at least it does on my version if anyone out there knows a way around this i am all ears temporal images make a product called filmpak which converts autocad plots to scodal postscript to scodal and now gif to scodal but it costs and i was just wondering if there was anything out there that just did the bitmap to scodal part a tad cheaper jeff lyall inst geo nuc sci ltd lower hutt new zealand
comp.graphics	re need specs info on apple quicktime add sciences sdsu edu james d murray writes i need to get the specs or at least a very verbose interpretation of the specs for quicktime technical articles from magazines and references to books would be nice too i also need the specs in a format usable on a unix or ms dos system i can t do much with the quicktime stuff they have on ftp apple com in its present format apple just released the quicktime volume of the new inside macintosh series any bookstore with reasonable technical stock should have it bill jones billj beowulf b ingr com
comp.graphics	image analysis for pc hi i am looking for image analysis software running in dos or windows i d like to be able to analyze tiff or similar files to generate histograms of patterns etc any help would be appreciated fourie joubert department of biochemistry university of pretoria bio navi up ac za
comp.graphics	re sources for shading wanted in article r ih innldi irau ira uka de s braun irav ira uka de thomas braun writes i m looking for shading methods and algorithms please let me know if you know where to get source codes for that illumination and color in computer generated imagery by roy hall contains c source for several famous illumination models including bouknight phong blinn whitted and hall illumination models if you want an introduction to shading you might look through the book writing a raytracer edited by glassner also the book procedural elements for computer graphics by rogers is a good reference source for code in these book are available on the net i believe you might check out nic funet fi or some site closer to you carrying graphics related stuff hope this is what you were asking for torgeir veimo studying at the university of bergen i m gona wave my freak flag high jimi hendrix and it would be okay on any other day the police
comp.graphics	re cview answers cyberspace buddha cb wixer bga com wrote renew blade stack urc tue nl rene walter writes over where it places its temp files it just places them in its current directory i have to beg to differ on this point as the batch file i use to launch cview cd s to the dir where cview resides and then invokes it every time i crash cview the byte temp file is found in the root dir of the drive cview is on this is what i posted that cview uses the root directory of the drive cview is on however since it has so much trouble reading large files from floppy i suspect that it uses the root directory of the drive the image files are on matthew zenkar mz moscom com
comp.graphics	re newsgroup split i haven t been following this thread so appologies if this has already been mentioned but how about comp graphics d kaveh kardan kardank ere umontreal ca
comp.graphics	re fast wireframe graphics in article c tk u c t cs columbia edu ykim cs columbia edu yong su kim writes i am working on a program to display d wireframe models with the user being able to arbitrarily change any of the viewing parameters also the wireframe objects are also going to have dynamic attributes so that they can move around while the user is exploring the wireframe world why don t you consider phigs in x or pex lib yeh usc
comp.graphics	re detecting double points in bezier curves in article almaden ibm com capelli vnet ibm com ron capelli writes in ia b w w oeinck waterland wlink nl ferdinand oeinck writes i m looking for any information on detecting and or calculating a double point and or cusp in a bezier curve see maureen stone and tony derose a geometric characterization of parametric cubic curves acm tog vol no july pp i ve used that reference and found that i needed to go to their original tech report maureen stone and tony derose characterizing cubic bezier curves xerox edl december this report can be obtained for free from xerox corporation palo alto research center coyote hill road palo alto california the tog paper was good but this tech report had more interesting details john
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of in c scgu ll mentor cc purdue edu ab nova cc purdue edu allen b writes i ve got the spec obviously since i quoted it in my last posting my gripe about tiff is that it s far too complicated and nearly infinitely easier to write than to read why not use the pd c library for reading writing tiff files it took me a good minutes to start using them in your own app martin martin preston m preston manchester ac uk computer graphics computer graphics unit manchester computing centre is just university of manchester a load of balls manchester u k m pl phone
comp.graphics	diamond stelth any good i am in the market for a bit graphics card for a pc isa bus and was wondering if anyone had any comments good bad otherwise regarding the diamond stealth
comp.graphics	re trying to view pov files edward d nobles ednobles sacam oren ortn edu wrote i ve been trying to view tga files created in povray i have the diamond speedstar video board not the x so far i can convert them to jpeg using cjpeg and view them with cview but that only displays bit color just want to see the darn things in real color i have an ati ultra pro card and have found that the easiest way to view true color images is using their windows drivers and something like winjpeg or photofinish if anyone has a non windows solution i d love to hear it dane
comp.graphics	ati gup and graphics wkshop win i have an ati graph ultra pro vlb w megs and have a small question about graphics workshop for windows when i exit from it it says my current driver can handle on colors when i am actually in x x color mode is this a driver problem a gws error or what i am using the driver under win it correctly states that i can display m colors when i switch to x x bit though another question anybody know of any viewers that support this card other than windows viewers any help would be appreciated
comp.graphics	re photoshop for windows in article c uhim jfq rot qc ca beaver rot qc ca andre boivert writes i am looking for comments from people who have used heard about photoshop for windows is it good how does it compare to the mac version is there a lot of bugs i heard the windows version needs fine tuning any comments would be greatly appreciated thank you andre boisvert beaver rot qc ca an review of both the mac and windows versions in either pc week or info world this week said that the windows version was considerably slower than the mac a more useful comparison would have been between photostyler and photoshop for windows david david farley the university of chicago library east th street jrl dgf midway uchicago edu chicago illinois
comp.graphics	targa format text file does anyone know how to convert a targa or similar bit picture into a list of r g b values and then convert back to targa after doing operations on the p ixels r g b codes ex targa pixel pixel etc if no one can help me with this could someone explain how the bit data is st ored in the targa file and also how its stored in the bit targas thanks
comp.graphics	call for presentations navy sciviz vr seminar nd call for presentations navy scientific visualization and virtual reality seminar tuesday june carderock division naval surface warfare center formerly the david taylor research center bethesda maryland sponsor ness navy engineering software system is sponsoring a one day navy scientific visualization and virtual reality seminar the purpose of the seminar is to present and exchange information for navy related scientific visualization and virtual reality programs research developments and applications presentations presentations are solicited on all aspects of navy related scientific visualization and virtual reality all current work works in progress and proposed work by navy organizations will be considered four types of presentations are available regular presentation minutes in length short presentation minutes in length video presentation a stand alone videotape author need not attend the seminar scientific visualization or virtual reality demonstration byoh accepted presentations will not be published in any proceedings however viewgraphs and other materials will be reproduced for seminar attendees abstracts authors should submit a one page abstract and or videotape to robert lipman naval surface warfare center carderock division code bethesda maryland voice fax e mail lipman oasys dt navy mil authors should include the type of presentation their affiliations addresses telephone and fax numbers and addresses multi author papers should designate one point of contact deadlines the abstact submission deadline is april notification of acceptance will be sent by may materials for reproduction must be received by june for further information contact robert lipman at the above address please distribute as widely as possible thanks robert lipman internet lipman oasys dt navy mil david taylor model basin cdnswc or lip ocean dt navy mil computational signatures and voicenet structures group code factsnet bethesda maryland phishnet stockings long legs the sixth sick shiek s sixth sheep s sick
comp.graphics	re newsgroup split concerning the proposed newsgroup split i personally am not in favor of doing this i learn an awful lot about all aspects of graphics by reading this group from code to hardware to algorithms i just think making different groups out of this is a wate and will only result in a few posts a week per group i kind of like the convenience of having one big forum for discussing all aspects of graphics anyone else feel this way just curious i disagree you could learn the same amount by reading all the split groups and it would make things easier for those of us who are less omnivorous there is no waste in creating news groups its just a bit of shuffling about i have no problem with only a few posts per week per group i spend too much time on this as it is david
comp.graphics	jpeg file format where could i find a description of the jpg file format specifically i need to know where in a jpg file i can find the height and width of the image and perhaps even the number of colors being used any suggestions peter uucp peterbak microsoft is this all that i am is there compuserve nothing more v ger
comp.graphics	re please recommend d graphics library for mac in article john shepardson esh moose slac stanford edu john shepardson esh qmail slac stanford edu john shepardson writes can you please offer some recommendations d graphics there has been a fantastic d programmers package for some years that has been little advertised and apparently nobody knows about called d graphic tools written by mark owen of micro system options in seattle wa i reviewed it a year or so ago and was really awed by it s capabilities it also includes tons of code for many aspects of mac programming including offscreen graphics it does zbuffering bit graphics has a database for representing graphical objects and more it is very well written mpw c think c and hypercard and the code is highly reusable last time i checked the price was around well worth it their is i ve talked with mark and he faxed some literature though it wasn t very helpful just a list of routine names bsplinesurface drawstring d names there was a product info sheet that explained some of the package capabilities i also found a review in april may mactutor it does look like a good package the current price is us
comp.graphics	looking for mr radon does anyone have a radon transform in c that they could send me any help accepted for a lot of au music ftp sounds sdsu edu then cat file au dev audio ub library catalog telnet bison acsu buffalo edu when in doubt ask xarchie xgopher or xwais
comp.graphics	re ray tracer for ms dos in article r cqiinnje srvr engin umich edu tdawson llullaillaco engin umich edu chris herringshaw writes sorry for the repeat of this request but does anyone know of a good free shareware program with which i can create ray traces and save them as bit mapped files of course if there is such a thing thanks in advance daemon there are books published by m t books that come with c source code on floppies they are programming in dimensions d graphics ray traycing and animation by christopher d watkins and larry sharp photorealism and ray tracing in c by christopher d watkins stephen b coy and mark finlay i have the first book and it is a great intro to d ray tracing and animation most of the programs are on the disk compiled and ready to run i have only glanced at the second book but it also appears to be good hope this helps mark larsen markl hunan rastek com this r unit has a bad motivator luke star wars
comp.graphics	re color pict of spinning earth estop conrad appstate edu acs writes sorry if this is the wrong place to post this i was crusing the net earlier this year and came upon something called color pict of spinning earth i am assuming it is a animation sequence of the earth s rotation or revolution i always get those mixed up at the time i found it my sysem would not even support color graphics so i didn t bother to get the pict now i have a fairly nice system and cant find the pict again if anyone can help please post here or e mail me thanks in advance eric estop conrad appstate edu likewise for me please first time i ve hear of it but i ve beem looking for something like this for the past few months patrick hew nd year science engineering university of western australia phew tartarus uwa edu au phew mackerel gu uwa edu au
comp.graphics	cornerstone dualpage driver wanted i am looking for a window driver for cornerstone dualpage cornerstone technology inc video card does anybody know that has these is there one thanks for any info to nis to nis kelder estonian biocentre tkelder kask ebc ee
comp.graphics	re newsgroup split in article fox apr graphics nyu edu fox graphics cs nyu edu david fox writes concerning the proposed newsgroup split i personally am not in favor of doing this i learn an awful lot about all aspects of graphics by reading this group from code to hardware to algorithms i just think making different groups out of this is a wate and will only result in a few posts a week per group i kind of like the convenience of having one big forum for discussing all aspects of graphics anyone else feel this way just curious i disagree you could learn the same amount by reading all the split groups and it would make things easier for those of us who are less omnivorous there is no waste in creating news groups its just a bit of shuffling about i have no problem with only a few posts per week per group i spend too much time on this as it is yes but shouldn t size of newsgroup be an issue sorry if this has been covered before but comp grahpics animation get how much traffic per day articles maybe on an extremely heavy day i ve been following this group for about four months now and i don t recall ever seeing such a flood of posts that a split would be warranted just my cents mitch jmcocker eos ncsu edu who doth render with sx knoweth frustration
comp.graphics	re scf files help needed tlc cx com writes second problem i can t find any graphics program that will open and display these files i have a couple of image conversion programs none mention scf files rix s files with the extension sci and scf are just a raw file with a color palette the first bytes is a kind of header with the name rix among bytes unknown stuff the you have bytes of palette info for the colors rgb and then you have the picture in raw format if you dont know how to make a viewer of of this description you can get vpic it is able to read the files regards thomas
comp.graphics	conversion of pic format files to hpgl files hello can anybody help me with the conversion of pic format files to hpgl files the question is as follows is it possible to convert files that have been generated in the pic preprocessor format into hpgl format suitable for sending to a plotter the hardware involved is ibm risc running aix how should this be done and what software is involved where is it available what does it cost what are the problems regards dani cimad consultants antwerp belgium dani cimad be
comp.graphics	hijaak i have heard some impressive things about hijakk for windows currently i use a shareware program called graphics workshop what kinds of things will hijaak do that these shareware programs will not do what has been your experience with hijaak are there other programs that are better please email me if you can help wayne haston haston utkvx utk edu thanks
comp.graphics	re graphics libraries does anyone out there have any experience with figaro form tgs or hoops from ithaca software i would appreciate any comments yes i do a couple of years ago i did a comparison of the two products some of this may have changed but here goes as far as a phigs implementation figaro is fine but its phigs personally i hate phigs because i find it is too low level i also dislike structure editing which i find impossible but enough about phigs i have found hoops to be a system that is full featured and easy to use they support all of their rendering methods in software when there is no hardware support their documentation is good and they are easily portable to other systems i would be happy to elaborate further if you have more specific questions here s lookin at ya o bill wlm wisdom attmail com phone x
comp.graphics	canon copier printer postscript questions printer model and specification canon clc color laser copier ps ipu unit postscript intelligent processing unit hello we have recently purchased a very expensive and nice color copier printer we want to be able to print to it from our sgi iris network the copier printer has both a parallel and scsi interface i have configured the printer with the lp system using the parallel interface and can print postscript files to the printer i can also print rgb files but these are in turn converted to postscript by an internal filter the canon clc is a publication quality printer but the quality of our postscript printouts are less than acceptable we create the postscript files with a variaty of programs such as showcase xv and tops when we convert to postscript with tops and use the l option to specify the halftone screen density of rather than the default the output is better but still much less that acceptable note that we are starting with a screen image in rgb image format and translating the image into postscript we suspect that if we could use the scsi interface we would get higher quality pictures we have not purchased the software that drives the printer from the scsi port to my knowledge this software is and does not come with a warranty the management here does not want to spend this much money without some assurance that the product will work here my questions if anybody on the net uses this printer are you using the scsi or parallel port what is the quality of the printouts is there a way to create high quality postscript printouts what is the limiting component the postscript language or the postscript interpretor on the printer the big question where can i get some software to drive the scsi port for this printer please email directly to me i don t not read news on a regular basis i will post a summary thanks in advance e mail scott ncifcrf gov phone title sr systems manager analyst
comp.graphics	ray tracing pictures for those who are interested in ray traced pictures there is a nice example on alt binaries pictures misc the file is called poolball gif it shows a pooltable with yes poolballs resolution x colours only the tga bit version is also available but a bit big mb to post the picture is created with pov ray enjoy gerco cgschot cs ruu nl gerco schot cgschot cs ruu nl
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of ulrich galki toppoint de wrote does anyone have any other suggestions where the came from forty two is six times nine
comp.graphics	d display software i have the need for displaying d surfaces under x using only xlib xt and xm does anyone know of a package available on internet which will be able to do the work i am looking for a stand alone package providing similar functions to xprism available with khoros but without the numerous libraries required for it i want to be able to recompile it and run it on various platforms from sgis to i s unix any help will be appreciated demetrios sapounas tel l nswc fax dahlgren va usa email ds aris nswc navy mil
comp.graphics	re looking for wmf converter buck hq ileaf com david buchholz x writes i m looking for any leads to the source of a good windows meta file converter or interpreter i need this for use outside the windows environment pd sources preferred but not a requirement please reply to the address below on a related topic i have been searching with no success for a specification of the enhanced metafile format i have the original wmf format graphics file formats levine et al but no info on the bit version any pointers eric w sink spyglass in all the earth only humans have the ability woodfield drive to be content in bad situations savoy il and vice versa e sink uiuc edu
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of silly mark a cartwright markc emx utexas edu wrote well is binary and who would forget that its the answer to the question of life the universe and everything else that is to quote douglas adams in a round about way of course the question has not yet been discovered but it was discovered sort of the question was what is times when arthur dent objected that this was unfortunately factually inaccurate the effort to discover the question was begun all over this last effort was i believe likely to take far longer than the lifespan of the universe in fact several lifespans of same mark wilson online computer systems or try email address mark ocsmd ocs com this file disclaims everything signed with my signature i mean it
comp.graphics	wanted matrox pg cv driver hi i need a windows driver for the matrox pg cv svga card at the moment windows runs only in the x mode if you have a driver for this card please send it with the oemsetup inf to bockamp informatik tu muenchen de thanks florian bockamp bockamp informatik tu muenchen de o o ooo ooo it s not a bug it s an undocumented feature
comp.graphics	fixed point math library has anyone written or seen a c library or c class for fixed point math or good articles about same i pretty much know how to do this but i have a few other wheels to invent at the moment thanks how am i typing call jack robotics jpl nasa gov jack morrison jet propulsion lab ms oak grove dr pasadena ca
comp.graphics	needed algorithms for d d object recognition hi i have a friend who is working on d and d object recognition he is looking for references describing algorithms on the following subject areas thresholding edge segmentation marr hildreth sobel operator chain codes thinning skeletonising if anybody is willing to post an algorithm that they have implemented which demonstrates any of the above topics it would be much appreciated please post all replies to my e mail address if requested i will post a summary to the newsgroup in a couple of weeks thanks in advance for all replies james eb city ac uk
comp.graphics	re hijaak haston donald wayne haston utkvx utk edu wrote currently i use a shareware program called graphics workshop what kinds of things will hijaak do that these shareware programs will not do i also use graphic workshop and the only differences that i know of are that hijaak has screen capture capabilities and acn convert to from a couple of more file formats don t know specifically which one in the april issue of pc magazine they test the twelve best selling image capture convert utilities including hijaak tmc tmc spartan ac brocku ca
comp.graphics	adobe photo shop type software for unix x motif platforms hello i have been searching for a quality image enhancement and manipulation package for unix x motif platforms that is comparable to adobe photo shop for the mac i have not been able to find any and would appreciate any information about such products you could provide i would be particularly interested in software that runs on hp or sun workstations and does not require special add in hardware but would also be interested in other solutions thank you wayne wayne michael wdm world std com
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of in article prestonm cs man ac uk prestonm cs man ac uk martin preston writes why not use the pd c library for reading writing tiff files it took me a good minutes to start using them in your own app i certainly do use it whenever i have to do tiff and it usually works very well that s not my point i m philosophically opposed to it because of its complexity this complexity has led to some programs poor tiff writers making some very bizarre files other programs inability to load tiff images though they ll save them of course and a general inability to interchange images between different environments despite the fact they all think they understand tiff as the saying goes it s not me i m worried about it s all the other assholes out there i ve had big trouble with misuse and abuse of tiff over the years and i chalk it all up to the immense and unnecessary complexity of the format in the words of the tiff spec appendix g page g capitalized emphasis mine the only problem with this sort of success is that tiff was designed to be powerful and flexible at the expense of simplicity it takes a fair amount of effort to handle all the options currently defined in this specification probably no application does a complete job and that is currently the only way you can be sure that you will be able to import any tiff image since there are so many image generating applications out there now if a program or worse all applications can t read every tiff image that means there are some it won t some that i might have to deal with why would i want my images to be trapped in that format i don t and neither should anyone who agrees with my reasoning not that anyone does of course ab
comp.graphics	marching cubs hello hello i was wondering if anyone knew of a pc or mac implementation of the marching cubes algorithm that will output the individual faces if there is no such application might there be some c source code that i could modify to implement the algorithm and get to the individual faces thanks in advance sincerly tracy tracy j abildskov phone fax address brigham young university department of psychology e mail abild bert cs byu edu provo ut usa
comp.graphics	epson hpgl pen plotter w pens b o greetings i have an epson hi pen plotter forsale it emulates an hp or i m not sure which it has an option board on it that does the emulation it has a serial interface with hardware handshake i also have pens for it as follows packs of black oil based packs of red green blue and black pens packs of aqueous black packs of aqueous r g blue black pack of aqueous multi color pens and assorted non packaged pens mostly colored the plotter is used i have tested it using the windows drivers for hp and hp and both worked fine it accepts either a or b sized paper x or x i figure that the plotter is worth about and the pens are worth at least another more one thing is certain you won t need to purchase any pens for quite a while all of the packaged pens were sealed so they are all still fresh the rest were capped and seem to function as well i d be willing to sell the pens seperate if anyone is interested in just them i m selling it because i got a hp laserjet and i don t need color i d like or best offer chert chert pellett chert dungeon cirr com chert dungeon lonestar org panic the cat is nibbling on the power cord
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of silly mark wilson mark ocsmd ocs com wrote mark a cartwright markc emx utexas edu wrote is binary and who would forget that its the answer to the question of life the universe and everything else of course the question has not yet been discovered but it was discovered sort of the question was what is times read on and there s a special prize at the bottom amaze your friends and gain respect from your peers that you can carry on so long about the number the original question was what is the meaning of life the universe and and everything the answer generated by deep thought the nd largest computer ever created was deep thought realized that to understand the answer one must really know what the question is unfortunately he didn t but he was able to help build the largest computer named earth which could figure out the real question i know this is background knowledge for everyone here just bear with me a sec when arthur pulled the scrabble tiles out of the bag he spelled out what is nine times six or the like however it is not clear that the monkey man had the right question in his brain especially since it was that lady in the diner which was vaporized moments later that came up with the answer to how everyone could get along on the other hand marvin said he saw the answer in dent s brain so lets presume it s correct well nine times six is forty two in base chew on that for awhile chris russell custom software networks case tools and consulting adaptive solutions sun sparc sgi iris hp apollo macintosh pc internet crussell netcom com gte u s mail p o box diamond bar ca
comp.graphics	re sphere from points there is another useful method based on least sqyares estimation of the sphere equation parameters the points x y z on a spherical surface with radius r and center a b c can be written as x a y b z c r this equation can be rewritten into the following form ax by cz r a b c x y z approximate the left hand part by f x y z p x p x p z p for all datapoints i c determine the parameters p p which minimise the average error f x y z x y z in numerical recipes in c can be found algorithms to solve these parameters the best fitting sphere will have center a b c p p p radius r sqrt p a a b b c c so at last will this solve you sphere estination problem at least for the most situations i think quick van rijt rytg fel tno nl
comp.graphics	polygon fill routine needed hi i am looking for a polygon fill routine to fill simple sided polygons can some one who has this routine in c help me in saving my reinventing time thanx in advance rao
comp.graphics	disney animation can anyone tell me anything about the disney animation software package note the followup line this is not for me but for a colleague
comp.graphics	re rumours about do read issue of wired magazine it has a long article on the hype of do i ve noticed that every article talks with the designers and how great it is but never show any pictures of the output or at least pictures that one can understand kirk membry our age is the age of industry rutgers viamar kmembry alexander rodchenko
comp.graphics	re d studio v any differences with previous version fombaron marc fombaron ufrima imag fr wrote are there significant differences between v and v thank you for helping no as i recall the only differences are in the ds set parameters some of the defaults have changed slightly i ll look when i get home and let you know but there isn t enough to actually warrant upgrading douginoz
comp.graphics	re cview answers ray knight rknight stiatl salestech com wrote uk nx mik uky edu bryan k williams writes re majority of users not readding from floppy well how about those of us who have picture cd roms and would like to use cview because it is fast and it works well but can t because the moron lacked the foresight to create the temp file in the program s path not the current didrectory actually the most flexible way to create temp files is to check for a temp or tmp environment variable and create the files on the drive and directory pointedto by the variable this is pretty much a standard for dos windows and os applications unfortunately cview does not pay attention to the temp environment variable matthew zenkar mz moscom com
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of martin preston prestonm cs man ac uk wrote in c scgu ll mentor cc purdue edu ab nova cc purdue edu allen b writes i ve got the spec obviously since i quoted it in my last posting my gripe about tiff is that it s far too complicated and nearly infinitely easier to write than to read why not use the pd c library for reading writing tiff files it took me a good minutes to start using them in your own app martin what is the name of this pd c library for tiff i d like to get a copy of it but i can t archie for something i don t have the filename for thanks
comp.graphics	need info on cc mail file format i need the file format for cc mail file formats it seems to be pcx based but with a twist only the first page of a multi page fax will come out readable the other pages disappear the format seems to be proprietary anybody got any clues i have to give my email faxes to my secretary in order to get em unscrambled i want a filter from cc mail to p nb m come to think of it p nb m to cc mail would be nice too tonyo master cna tek com
comp.graphics	medical images via gopher a few days back someone posted info on a gopher site where you could search for medical graphics etc could someone please repost or mail me a copy i d greatly appreciate it thanks mark mark morley unix sun manager net morley camosun bc ca camosun college interurban campus tel interurban road room tech fax victoria b c canada v x x
comp.graphics	morphing keywords i am looking for some morphing programs for dec s or pc s i looked for a program called dmorph using archie but could not find it i found a progrmam call morpho but it only did grayscale images does anyone know where i should look
comp.graphics	graphics driver standards i have a researcher who collecting electical impulses from the human heart through a complex analog to digital system he has designed and inputting this information into his eisa bus hp vectra computer running dos and the phar lap dos extender he want to purchase a very high performance video card for d modeling he is aware of a company called matrox but he is concerned about getting married to a company and their video routine library he would hope some more flexibility to choose between several card manufacturers with a standard video driver he would like to write more generic code code that could be easily moved to other cards or computer operating systems in the future is there any hope any information would be greatly appreciated please if possible respond directly to internet mail to raymaker bcm tmc edu thanks
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of silly in article r lf fu geraldo cc utexas edu mark a cartwright markc emx utexas edu writes well is binary and who would forget that its the answer to the question of life the universe and everything else that is to quote douglas adams in a round about way of course the question has not yet been discovered but the question was later revealed to be what is x in the base system of course chuck divine
comp.graphics	d animation station i am looking for some information about d animation stations that are currently on the market the price of the station can be from k k but no more than type of workstation doesnt matter pc mac sgi etc if you use or have bought looked at one or can suggest your dream machine then please mail me your configurations i need the following type of station pc mac etc expandibilty of the machine software that can run on it vtr controller and or vtr deck model name vendors names and numbers thanks in advance ken eyler eylerken u washington edu the evergreen state college
comp.graphics	xlib and bit displays info needed hi my name is rahul and i am doing ms at usu logan my query is i have a hp workstation hp series with x running on it i have a true color bit color monitor connected to this machine normally i have the capability to display colors from a max of million since the monitor is true color i can see million at a time que do we have a facility in x c function call that will enable me to specify any rgb combination and see it on screen i am using xstorecolor to set the pallette of a max of colors que if not is there any way i can display a true color image on a true color monitor using xlib function calls we are generating ray traced images and colors are indeed a painful limit besides i need the facility to display the true color images i will be generating on a true color system without color quantification please if anyone can help i d be obliged rahul sl pr cc usu edu
comp.graphics	tiff anything are there any tiff to anything programs out there for the ibm our scanner works into tiff and i can view it on cshow but all of my other programs read errors are there any basic tiff to jpeg gif pcx bmp etc thanks for the time email or post acceptable joshuaf that geiger scan looks like dookie i know it s a tiff
comp.graphics	imagine for pc is impulse shipping imagine for the pc how close is it to the amiga s imagine in terms of features roland chia air cooled email kruzifix netcom com free falling voice carbon unit
comp.graphics	screen capture cymk converter i have a small program to extract a x image from a vga color screen and store that image in a tiff file i need to insert the image into a sales brochure which i then need printed in color on a mac i would use photoshop to separate the image into eps files and then pull it into quark express then get it printed to film on a lintronix at a service bureau however i don t have a mac but i do have windows what would i need to do this type of operation in the windows environment are there any separation programs available on the net is there a good page layout program that i should look into thanks in advance shmuel einstein shmuel einstein com shmuel einstein associates inc wilshire blvd suite e beverly hills ca fax
comp.graphics	hp xx for dos is there a precompiled version of hp xx for dos out there prefereably for
comp.graphics	re virtual reality for x on the cheap in article apr mfltd co uk sts mfltd co uk steve sherwood x writes has anyone got multiverse to work i have built it on svr mips svr s and sun sparcstation there seems to be many bugs in it the dogfight and dactyl simply do nothing after fixing a bug where a variable is defined twice in two different modules one needed setting to static else the client core dumped steve extn sts mfltd co uk uunet mfocus sts micro focus just like pariah i have no name rm rf west street living in a blaze of obscurity rum ruff splat newbury need courage to survive the day berkshire england a bort r etry i nfluence with large hammer i built it on a rs my only motif machine works fine i added some objects into dogfight so i could get used to flying this was very easy all in all cool brian
comp.graphics	d animation studio file format is the ds file format for autodesk s d animation studio available thanks gary please respond by email i have a hell of a time keeping up with news
comp.graphics	re ray tracer for ms dos in article r cqiinnje srvr engin umich edu tdawson llullaillaco engin umich edu chris herringshaw wrote sorry for the repeat of this request but does anyone know of a good free shareware program with which i can create ray traces and save them as bit mapped files of course if there is such a thing thanks in advance daemon ppppp ooooo v v persistance of vision raytracer p p o o v v p p o o v v ppppp o o v v p o o v v p o o v v p ooooo v available on archie and wuarchive in graphics type directories ps it s freeware kai howells kai h postoffice utas edu au mortimer ave new town tas ph within australia elsewhere
comp.graphics	sigkids research showcase call sigkids call for participation sigkids research showcase is where learning is hip pushing the edge in education computer graphics and new technologies the sigkids research showcase will provide siggraph s attendees with the latest in applying computer technology to form state of the art educational experiences so hop to it submit any works which converge the disciplines of education and computer technology possible categories and domains include but are not limited to interactive stand alone applications self run demonstrations and tutorials museum installations groupware collaborative systems hypermedia virtual reality scientific visualization interactive art microworlds deadlines may submissions due submit to diane schwartz siggraph sigkids committee c o the institute for the learning sciences maple avenue suite evanston illinois fax schwartz ils nwu edu electronic submission form schwartz ils nwu edu how to submit fill out the permission to use form see page of the siggraph call for participation or send email to schwartz ils nwu edu to have one faxed to you fill out the sigkids research showcase submission form below send an abstract description of the submission approximately words in one of the following ways a send hard copies to diane schwartz via surface mail at the above address or b fax copy to diane schwartz at or c email copy to diane schwartz at schwartz ils nwu edu if it is necessary to explain the project additional support material such as videotapes and slides that will assist the selection committee in reaching a decision are highly reccommended fax and email submissions are acceptable please send all of your submission material in the same form either surface mail email or fax the only exception to this should be the additional support material which should only be sent via surface mail note due to our very limited budget if the submitter chooses to have a dedicated machine for their work they will have to pay rental fees for the hardware personally note contributors outside for the united states should be aware of customs and carrier delays and send submissions early cut here acm siggraph sigkids research showcase entry form a copy of this form must accompany each proposal you submit send sigkids research showcase entries to diane schwartz siggraph sigkids committee c o the institute for the learning sciences maple avenue suite evanston illinois fax schwartz ils nwu edu please print legibly contact information name company address city state postal code country daytime phone evening phone fax email additional information title or theme of piece participant s name s collaborator s name s hardware platform and periferals what is needed supplied by participant yes no dedicated machine yes no note due to our very limited budget the participant must pay the rental fees for any dedicated hardware need assistance specify software statement please tell us the significance of the work less than words medium other describe i e virtual reality virtual sculpture interactive multimedia installation etc special requirements physical description power dimensions other authorization permission to use visual and audio in the event that materials used in my acm siggraph sigkids research showcase entry contain the work of other individuals or organizations including any copyrighted musical compositions or excerpts thereof i understand that it is my responsibility to secure any necessary permissions and or liscenses yes no my piece contains images audio or video components if yes yes no i have the necessary rights and or permissions to use the images audio or video components in my piece conference presentation release by signing this form i grant siggraph permission to consider my piece for the sigkids research showcase i maintain the copyright to my work and will receive full credit wherever this work is used conference promotional material i grant acm siggraph the right to 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grant siggraph the right to distribute your work while you maintain the copyright slide sets and catalogs are publications for which you grant siggraph nonexclusive worldwide distribution rights siggraph marks each item in these publications with a proper copyright notice which informs viewers that these items may not be copied reproduced broadcast or used for commercial purposes without the explicit permission of the indivicual copyright owners in addition this form asks if acm siggraph may use the your materials for conference and organizational promotional material in exchange for full author artist credit information
comp.graphics	wanted playmation info hi folks does anyone have a copy of playmation they d be willing to sell me i d love to try it out but not for the retail if you have moved onto something bigger ds or better imagine i d love to buy your table scraps if noone is selling can anyone recommend a place to buy playmation mail order for cheap thanks in advance mark mark marino omar osf org uunet osf omar open software foundation cambridge center cambridge ma
comp.graphics	re marching cubs i saw this subject and all i could think of was a parade at wrigley field in chicago or maybe it s just me marc cooper graphics programmer sverdrup tech as a child i was an fsmarc lerc nasa gov imaginary playmate nasa lewis research center ms brookpark dr tom robbins cleveland oh even cowgirls get the blues disclaimer it s mine all mine d duck
comp.graphics	pov file constructor for unix x hi i m just getting into povray and i was wondering if there is a graphic package that outputs pov files any help would be appreciated thanks later ish craig i didn t do it nobody saw me do it you can t prove anything ccc c ccc c chumphre comp vuw ac nz
comp.graphics	re more on radiosity amann iam unibe ch stephan amann writes in article yuma acns colostate edu xz longs lance colostate edu xia zhao writes in article apr aragorn unibe ch you write let s be serious i m working on a radiosity package written in c i would like to make it public domain i ll announce it in c g the minute i finished it that were the good news the bad news it ll take another months at least to finish it please note that there are some radiosity packages in my resource listing under the subject ftp list greetings nick nick nikolaos fotis national technical univ of athens greece home esperidon st internet nfotis theseas ntua gr halandri gr uucp mcsun ariadne theseas nfotis athens greece fax usenet editor of comp graphics resource listing and soc culture greece faq ntua ua acm student chapter chair we re organizing a small conference in comp graphics call if you re interested to participate nick nikolaos fotis national technical univ of athens greece home esperidon st internet nfotis theseas ntua gr halandri gr uucp mcsun ariadne theseas nfotis athens greece fax
comp.graphics	finding equally spaced points on a sphere hello i know that this has been discussed before but at the time i didn t need to teselate a sphere so if any kind soul has the code or the alg that was finally decided upon as the best as i recall it was a nice iterative subdivision meathod i would be very appreciative thomas deweese deweeset rdrc rpi edu
comp.graphics	re grayscale printer have you considered the apple laserwriter iig we use it for all our b w image printing
comp.graphics	help advice on what video system to buy if this question is covered elsewhere i apologize but i need information fast my department has been given a large sum of money to install a video system on our network of ibm rs workstations this is not an area in which i have any expertise so i wonder if anyone out there can offer advice we would like a system based either on vhs or mm video which will allow one write video frame by frame on tape for play back in real time it s for visualization of physics problems can anyone tell me what hardware is available which would work for our system some support software is obviously needed too but nothing particularly sophisticated since the software we actually use for the visualization is all already written please email with replies as i don t read this group many thanks for your help dr m e j newman department of physics cornell university newmme helios tn cornell edu
comp.graphics	re tiff anything there is a program called graphic workshop you can ftp from wuarchive the file is in the msdos graphics directory and is called grfwk t zip this program should od everthing you need tmc tmc spartan ac brocku ca
comp.graphics	re sun ipx root window display background picture in article apr osi com scott osi com scott fleming writes hello netters i have a fairly weak question to ask everybody in netland i ve looked though the last faq for comp graphics but i didn t find my answer thus the post i ll keep it short question how do i display any raster files gif files iff or tiff images that i have on my root window or background i have a sun ipc openwindows sun os if that helps any i ve compiled pov for the sun and would like to display some of the work i have done as a background tile thanks for any help or information that you provide have a good day scott fleming osi p s kudo s to the people who provided pov its great scott i m not so sure if this is helpful but i usually use xv v i use sun ipcs and ipxs and it works fine it can display in a good number of ways root being one of them it s also possible to have xv put up a background automatically at login hope this helps jason weiler weilej rpi edu btw xv v is on anonymous ftp somewhere archie fer it
comp.graphics	re detecting double points in bezier curves renner adobe com john renner writes in article almaden ibm com capelli vnet ibm com ron ca in ia b w w oeinck waterland wlink nl ferdinand oeinck writes i m looking for any information on detecting and or calculating a double point and or cusp in a bezier curve see maureen stone and tony derose a geometric characterization of parametric cubic curves acm tog vol no july pp i ve used that reference and found that i needed to go to their original tech report maureen stone and tony derose characterizing cubic bezier curves xerox edl december first thanks to all who replied to my original question i ve implemented the ideas from the article above and i m very satisfied with the results i needed it for my bezier curve approximation routine in some cases generating offset curves loops can occur i now have a fast method of detecting the generation of a curve with a loop although i did not follow the article above strictly the check if the fourth control point lies in the the loop area which is bounded by two parabolas and one ellips is too complicated instead i enlarged the loop area and surrounded it by for straight lines the check is now simple and fast and my approximation routine never ever outputs self intersecting bezier curves again ferdinand
comp.graphics	dregistere xv for ms dos pascal perret in article apr eicn etna ch wrote site omnigate clarkson edu aliases grape ecs clarkson edu number pub msdos djgpp pub it s xv zip i think certainly you read the other answer from kevin martin he write about dv x what is it could someone answer funny thing the internet i have no idea what xv might be except that it might be something to do with x windows on pcs if you know and have used it and think that it is good email me ryanph mrl dsto gov au dv x is a common abbreviation for quarterdeck corporation s desqview x software i have not used dv x yet but reading the blurbs that quarterdeck sent me it sounds pretty great allows multiple dos machines the way that os does but without requiring mb of ram to get os going pre emptive multi tasking network computing a proper x windows client server application this means that dos program can be used on other x windows computers on your network and that x windows programs can be used on your dv x computer although it is not a version of unix it effectively has many of unix s features and mostly you will be able to compile unix type programs using the djgpp or gnu c compilers they advertise regularly in all of the major computing and programming magazines they also have internet support online support qdeck com pascal perret perret eicn etna ch hope that this helps anyone wanting to know phil ryan melbourne australia
comp.graphics	re looking for tseng vesa drivers hi this is my first msg to the net actually the rd copy of it dam ed vi look for the new vpic it comes with updated vesa drivers for almost every known card the vesa level is and my tseng bit has a nice affair with the driver hope it is useful bye
comp.graphics	i need to make my vga do shades i have a routine that changes the color rgb attributes on my vga adapter but it doesn t work in the mode that i need specifically hex an obscure mode of course but i need to change the zillions of colors to shade greyscale but i do not have the correct memory address for the pointer i need please someone i need the starting address or maybe somewhere i can find it thank you john kondis eapu orion oac uci edu
comp.graphics	re photoshop for windows in article apr midway uchicago edu dgf quads uchicago edu david farley writes in article c uhim jfq rot qc ca beaver rot qc ca andre boivert writes i am looking for comments from people who have used heard about photoshop for windows is it good how does it compare to the mac version is there a lot of bugs i heard the windows version needs fine tuning any comments would be greatly appreciated thank you andre boisvert beaver rot qc ca an review of both the mac and windows versions in either pc week or info world this week said that the windows version was considerably slower than the mac a more useful comparison would have been between photostyler and photoshop for windows david i don t know about that i ve used photoshop on both a dx and a quadra i d say they are roughly equal if anything the was faster both systems were running in bit color and had the same amount of ram megs i also believe the quadra had one of those photoshop accelerators
comp.graphics	re d studio v any differences with previous version in article apr hparc aus hp com doug hparc aus hp com doug parsons writes fombaron marc fombaron ufrima imag fr wrote are there significant differences between v and v thank you for helping no as i recall the only differences are in the ds set parameters some of the defaults have changed slightly i ll look when i get home and let you know but there isn t enough to actually warrant upgrading douginoz wrong the major improvements for and a are in the use of ipas routines for d studio they have increased in speed anywhere from depending on which ones you use all the yost group ipas routines that you can buy separate from the d studio package require the use of or a they are too slow with
comp.graphics	true color display in pov hallo pov renderers i ve got a bocax card now i try to get pov displaying true colors while rendering i ve tried most of the options and univesa driver but what happens isn t correct can anybody help me
comp.graphics	fractal compression hi can anybody give me book or reference title to give me a start at fractal image compression technique helps will be appreciated thanx inu n lindblat cc monash edu au inu n aurora cc monash edu au
comp.graphics	developable surface hi netters i am currently doing some investigations on developable surface can anyone familiar with this topic give me some information or sources which can allow me to find some infomation of developable surface thanks for your help abel h hkuxa hku hk
comp.graphics	re virtual reality for x on the cheap in article r v a rj fg plk af mil ridout bink plk af mil brian s ridout writes in article apr mfltd co uk sts mfltd co uk steve sherwood x writes has anyone got multiverse to work i have built it on svr mips svr s and sun sparcstation there seems to be many bugs in it the dogfight and dactyl simply do nothing after fixing a bug where a variable is defined twice in two different modules one needed setting to static else the client core dumped steve extn sts mfltd co uk uunet mfocus sts micro focus just like pariah i have no name rm rf west street living in a blaze of obscurity rum ruff splat newbury need courage to survive the day berkshire england a bort r etry i nfluence with large hammer i built it on a rs my only motif machine works fine i added some objects into dogfight so i could get used to flying this was very easy all in all cool brian the rs compiler is so forgiving i think that if you mixed cobol pascal the c compiler still wouldn t complain steve extn sts mfltd co uk uunet mfocus sts micro focus just like pariah i have no name rm rf west street living in a blaze of obscurity rum ruff splat newbury need courage to survive the day berkshire england a bort r etry i nfluence with large hammer
comp.graphics	alias phone number wanted what is the phone number for alias a toll free number is preferred if available thanks charles boesel diablo creative if pro for and con against cboesel diablo uu holonet net then what s the opposite of progress pager what else congress
comp.graphics	re postscript drawing prog in article apr informatik tu muenchen de comp graphics gnuplot comp graphics rdd uts ipp garching mpg de reinhard drube writes in article c ecnn qo mentor cc purdue edu nish cv chem purdue edu nishantha i writes could somebody let me know of a drawing utility that can be used to manipulate postscript files i am specifically interested in drawing lines boxes and the sort on postscript contour plots i have tried xfig and i am impressed by it s features however it is of no use since i cannot use postscript files as input for the programme is there a utility that converts postscript to xfig format any help would be greatly appreciated nishantha have you checked out adobe illustrator there are a few unix versions for it available depending on your platform i know of two unix versions one for mach next and for irix sgi there may be others such as for sun sparcstation but i don t know for sure ttyl charles boesel diablo creative if pro for and con against cboesel diablo uu holonet net then what s the opposite of progress pager what else congress
comp.graphics	why does illustrator autotrace so poorly i ve been trying to figure out a way to get adobe illustrator to auto trace exactly what i see on my screen but it misses the edges of templates by as many as pixels or more resulting in images that are useless i need exact tracing not approximate i ve tried adjusting the freehand tolerances as well as autotrace tolerances but it doesn t help any suggestions charles boesel diablo creative if pro for and con against cboesel diablo uu holonet net then what s the opposite of progress pager what else congress
comp.graphics	marchin cubes hi there is there anybody who know a polygon reduction algorithm for marching cube surfaces e g the algirithm of schroeder siggraph for any hints hugs and kisses erwin o o ooo ooo erwin keeve adress peter welter platz w cologne germany dept of computergraphics phone computeranimation fax academy of media arts cologne email keeve khm uni koeln de
comp.graphics	disp i have posted disp zip to alt binaries pictures utilities you may distribute this program freely for non commercial use if no fee is gained there is no warranty the author is not responsible for any damage caused by this program important changes since version fix bugs in file management system file displaying improve file management system more user friendly fix bug in xpm version reading fix bugs in targa reading writng fix bug in gem img reading add support for pcx and gem img writing auto skip macbinary header introduction this program can let you read write and display images with different formats it also let you do some special effects rotation dithering on image its main purpose is to let you convert image among different formts include simple file management system support slide show there is no limit on image size currently this program supports bits display if you want to use hicolor or truecolor you must have vesa driver if you want to modify video driver please read section hardware requirement pc or better msdos or higher min amount of ram is m bytes maybe less memory will also work i recommend min m bytes for better performance hard disk for swapping virtual memory the following description is borrowed from djgpp supported wares up to m of extended memory expanded under vcpi up to m of disk space used for swapping supervga color mode up to x xms vdisk memory allocation strategies vcpi programs such as qemm desqview and max unsupported dpmi microsoft windows features emulator bit unix ish environment flat memory model svga graphics installation video drivers emu and go exe are borrowed from djgpp if you use western digital vga chips read readme wd this go exe is a modified version for vesa and is completely compatible with original version but some people report that this go exe is not compatible with other djgpp programs in their system if you encounter this problem don t put go exe within search path please read runme bat for how to run this program if you choose xxxxx grn as video driver add nc to environment go for example go driver x xxxxx xxxxx grn nc if you don t have x add emu x xxxxx emu to environment go for example go driver x xxxxx xxxxx grd emu x xxxxx emu notes i only test tr grn et grn and vesa grn other drivers are not tested i have modified et grn to support bits display you don t need to use vesa driver if et grn doesn t work please try vesa grn for those who want to use hicolor or truecolor display please use vesa grn except et users you can find vesa bios driver from wuarchive wustl edu mirrors msdos graphics godzilla cgl rmit oz au kjb mgl command line switch usage display d display initial display type s sort sort method h display type svga default hicolor truecolor sort method name ext function key f change disk drive ctrl a ctrl z change disk drive f change filename mask see match doc f change parameters f some effects on picture eg flip rotate f make directory t tag file tag group files see match doc t tag all files u untag file untag group files see match doc u untag all files ins change display type in read screen menu f m m move file s f d d delete file s r r rename file c c copy file s z z display first bytes in ascii hex and dec modes f f display disk free space page up down move one page tab change processing target arrow keys home end page up page down scroll image home left most end right most page up top most page down bottom most in screen effect menu left right arrow change display type bits s s slide show escape to terminate alt x quit program without prompting alt a reread directory escape abort function and return support format read gif gif japan mag mag japan pic pic sun raster ras jpeg jpg xbm xbm utah rle rle pbm pbm pgm pgm ppm ppm pm pm pcx pcx japan mki mki tiff tif targa tga xpm xpm mac paint mac gem img img iff ilbm lbm window bmp bmp qrt ray tracing qrt mac pict pct vis vis pds pds viking vik vicar vic fits fit usenix face fac the extensions in are standard extensions write gif sun raster jpeg xbm pbm pgm ppm pm tiff targa xpm mac paint ascii laser jet iff ilbm window bmp mac pict vis fits face pcx gem img all read write support full color bits grey scale b w dither and bits image if allowed for that format detail initialization set default display type to highest display type find allowable screen resolution for grn video driver only when you run this program you will enter read menu whthin this menu you can press any function key except f if you move or copy files you will enter write menu the write menu is much like read menu but only allow you to change directory the header line in read menu includes d xx f xx t xx d display type f number of files t number of tagged files pressing space in read menu will let you select which format to use for reading current file pressing return in read menu will let you reading current file this program will automatically determine which format this file is the procedure is first check magic number if fail check standard extension still fail report error pressing s or s in read menu will do slide show if delay time is program will wait until you hit a key except escape if any error occurs program will make a beep escape to terminate pressing ins in read menu will change display type pressing alt x in read menu will quit program without prompting once image file is successfully read you will enter screen menu within this menu f is turn on you can do special effect on image pressing return show image in graphic mode press return space or escape to return to text mode pressing tab change processing target this program allows you to do special effects on bit or bit image pressing left right arrow change display type bits pressing space save current image to file b w dither save as black white image bit grey scale save as grey image bits full color save as color image bits true color save as bit image this program will ask you some questions if you want to write image to file some questions are format dependent finally this program will prompt you a filename if you want to save file under another directory other than current directory please press space after pressing space you will enter write menu you can change directory to what you want then pressing space this program will prompt you original filename pressing return this program will prompt you selected filename filename under bar this program supports bits display this program is memory greedy if you don t have enough memory the performance is poor if you want to save bits image try gif then tiff lzw then targa then sun raster then bmp then if you want to save bits image lossless try tiff lzw or targa or ilbm or sun raster no one is better for true bits image i recommend jpeg for storing bits images even bits images not all subroutines are fully tested this document is not well written if you have any problem suggestion comment about this program please send to u bicmos ee nctu edu tw i need your suggestion to improve this program there is no anonymous ftp on this site tech information program user interface and some subroutines written by jih shin ho some subroutines are borrowed from xv and pbmplus dec tiff v and jpeg v reading writing are through public domain libraries compiled with djgpp you can get whole djgpp package from simtel or mirror sites for example wuarchive wustl edu mirrors msdos djgpp for thoese who want to modify video driver get grx source code from simtel or mirror sites for hicolor and truecolor bits of colors is set to bits of colors is set to xc bits of colors is set to xc acknowledgment i would like to thank the authors of xv and pbmplus for their permission to let me use their subroutines also i will thank the authors who write tiff and jpeg libraries thank dj without djgpp i can t do any thing on pc jih shin ho u bicmos ee nctu edu tw
comp.graphics	re pov file constructor for unix x in article r hl csc st james comp vuw ac nz craig humphrey comp vuw ac nz chumphre writes hi i m just getting into povray and i was wondering if there is a graphic package that outputs pov files any help would be appreciated thanks a very good modeling package i found is irit look for irit tar z however there is no converter from it s format to pov format i postet a request for such a converter in this group but got no response so i m considering to write such a program myself sebastian schmidt tu ilmenau institut f praktische informatik
comp.graphics	which video card please help i ve got a hz computer which is under warranty and my trident c video card is starting to play up surprise surprise therefore i m going to try to exchange it for a better card the big question is which video card is high quality and with an acceptable price tag on student budget thank you in advance
comp.graphics	re fast polygon routine needed for some reason i never saw the original post on this thread but if you are looking for fast polygon routines on vga on a pc you really can t go past the mode x stuff from dr dobbs this code is all p domain as far as i know and in the original articles the routines were all presented as dumb vga routines and then optimised to modex with some interesting discussion along the way if you are interested i could find out more details of the issues in question i have them at home bernard
comp.graphics	re postscript drawing prog in b vma o diablo uucp diablo uucp cboesel charles boesel writes in article apr informatik tu muenchen de comp graphics gnuplot comp graphics rdd uts ipp garching mpg de reinhard drube writes in article c ecnn qo mentor cc purdue edu nish cv chem purdue edu nishantha i writes could somebody let me know of a drawing utility that can be used to manipulate postscript files i am specifically interested in drawing lines boxes and the sort on postscript contour plots i have tried xfig and i am impressed by it s features however it is of no use since i cannot use postscript files as input for the programme is there a utility that converts postscript to xfig format any help would be greatly appreciated nishantha have you checked out adobe illustrator there are a few unix versions for it available depending on your platform i know of two unix versions one for mach next and for irix sgi there may be others such as for sun sparcstation but i don t know for sure you can include postscript epsi files in xfig encapsulated postscript info files you can t actually edit the postscript file but you re able to draw over the postscript file there a eps to epsi converter eps epsi perl program succes ger timmens ger cv ruu nl dcv research group utrecht the netherlands tel room f fax unquestionably there is progress the average american now pays out twice as much in taxes as he formerly got in wages h l mencken
comp.graphics	any good morphing anims has anyone created any interesting animations using dmorph i seem to be unable to create anything that looks remotely realistic although this is probably due to the crappy gif s at i am using one of captain kirk and one of spock i m a bit of a trekker what are the best type of pictures to use thanks a situnayake
comp.graphics	dtp please ineed information about desk top publishe post graduate courses and if possible email address or normal mail thanks in advance
comp.graphics	re diamond stelth any good i bought the diamond stealth a few months ago it seems to be a great card especially with my multimedia presentations it runs graphics and animation as well as some near full motion video very well the only thing i can tell that it lacks is speed above colors its qualit in between and million collors un unreal but you definitly compromise speed it seems to be a great card for graphics and it comes with some great software but im not so sure about the excelerator part i used to own a paridise and it doesnt seem to be much faster than that one thing i do like is that it loads its own vesa driver from rom at startup i think because i have never had to load it for links or any other programs that require special vesa drivers at startup gromi a pd hintmatt ba ba isu edu
comp.graphics	gif aerial maps is there an ftp site for maps of the us preferably aerial photographs thanks
comp.graphics	hidden line removal program i m posting this for a friend i have an immediate need for a polygon based hidden line removal program i can deal with any input output format but i need to be able to do perspective views in any orientation and range is there a public domain hidden line program around it seems like there should be but i have not been able to locate one email replies and i will summarize thanks
comp.graphics	sphinx satellite image processing under x sphinx sphinx is a user friendly state of the art image processing and analysis package that runs across a spectrum of high performance computer platforms operating unix and the x window system it was created to meet to the daily research needs of scientists conducting climate investigations using satellite data and remote sensing techniques intuitive graphic interface sphinx features an interactive interface with pop up menus and point and click dialog boxes which makes image processing and analysis simple and fast this accessible menuing enables you to build attractive image layouts quickly while also providing you the flexibility of returning to the main menu to conduct other image analysis and processing operations image format compatibility using smart read write functions sphinx allows you to easily open and save image files in a variety of formats using bit integer or real data values sphinx also reads and writes the common tiff and gif formats as well as compresses and decompresses image formats to save disk space image analysis processing for image and pixel analysis the sphinx package includes an assortment of processing tools that perform useful statistical and mathematical filtering operations such as fourier transforms convolution product or principal component analyses an interactive interpreter for both algebraic equations and images allows the user to manipulate and combine individual data channels interactively standard fortran notation is used for formula entry and for trig onometric and transcendental functions satellite spectra orbit analysis sphinx possesses functions to simulate satellite signal sensitivity for various meteorological satellites e g goes meteosat noaa spot etc the simulations are conducted for a selection of standard atmospheric and surface conditions and instrument spectral bands a geometry model computes the solar zenith angles warping orbit simulation and d image projection easy external program interfacing sphinx allows users the flexibility to integrate externally developed software algorithms for processing and converting satellite observations sphinx exports and imports image files and image parameters to external programs using special interface functions quick quality presentation sphinx rapidly displays manipulates and enhances high resolution multispectral images and color tables using six bit x image planes and one graphics plane the package conveniently combines color images graphics and text to generate sharp digital images for articles and reports sphinx s d and d graphics editor provides complete flexibility for modifying and integrating vector graphics and analysis plots with images such as histograms and radial graphs the package supplies color and gray scale output for standard inkjet and laser printers other capabilities sphinx also performs image animation external graphics importing mosaic fitting what else software support development sphinx was developed at the laboratoire d optique atmospherique loa of the universite de lille france the package has received critical feedback and support from scientists at the french national laboratory centre national de recherche scientifique cnrs and the french space agency centre national d etudes spatiales cnes at loa sphinx undergoes continued refinement and development to meet changing research needs and advances in computer technology the package which features on line help is supported by an internet address sphinx loasil citilille fr through which questions can be answered and version updates provided without delay performance tested cnes has selected sphinx to analyze and process the satellite data collected during the upcoming adeos polder satellite mission today the sphinx package is in use at the nasa goddard space flight center and is widely used in many french laboratories including the centre de recherche en physique de l environnement ecole normale superieure laboratoire d etudes et de recherches en teledetection spatiale laboratoire de meteorologie dynamique a test version of sphinx is available at loasil citilille fr anonymous bin cd sphinx get all sphinx tar z in the test version the output files are disable however the visualisation and graphic functions are available this is sufficient to work with if you are interested in keeping sphinx send us your email and you will receive news about the package evolution the software is changing with user suggestions we will appreciate your comments
comp.graphics	re diamond stelth any good the real problem w the stealth from what i ve heard is that diamond won t tell anyone how to program their proprietary clock stuff so x under linux and bsd won t run patrick bridges patrick erc msstate edu
comp.graphics	re photoshop for windows in article r m k agate berkeley edu aron tikal ced berkeley edu aron bonar writes in article apr midway uchicago edu dgf quads uchicago edu david farley writes in article c uhim jfq rot qc ca beaver rot qc ca andre boivert writes i am looking for comments from people who have used heard about photoshop for windows is it good how does it compare to the mac version is there a lot of bugs i heard the windows version needs fine tuning any comments would be greatly appreciated thank you andre boisvert beaver rot qc ca an review of both the mac and windows versions in either pc week or info world this week said that the windows version was considerably slower than the mac a more useful comparison would have been between photostyler and photoshop for windows david i don t know about that i ve used photoshop on both a dx and a quadra i d say they are roughly equal if anything the was faster both systems were running in bit color and had the same amount of ram megs i also believe the quadra had one of those photoshop accelerators i went back and looked at the review again they claim there were significant differences in manipulating a meg test file but with smaller files the two platforms were the about the same david david farley the university of chicago library east th street jrl dgf midway uchicago edu chicago illinois
comp.graphics	re why does illustrator autotrace so poorly in article b vmcbrt diablo uucp diablo uucp cboesel charles boesel writes i ve been trying to figure out a way to get adobe illustrator to auto trace exactly what i see on my screen but it misses the edges of templates by as many as pixels or more resulting in images that are useless i need exact tracing not approximate i ve tried adjusting the freehand tolerances as well as autotrace tolerances but it doesn t help any suggestions charles boesel diablo creative if pro for and con against cboesel diablo uu holonet net then what s the opposite of progress pager what else congress i ve had exactly the same problems in aldus freehand i think autotracing is one of those features that barely works but everybody feels compelled to throw it in because the other guys are doing it david farley the university of chicago library east th street jrl dgf midway uchicago edu chicago illinois
comp.graphics	rayshade query hi there i am very interested in rayshade i have managed to make a chessboard for rayshade unfortunately i still have to do the knight horse any ideas i am also looking for a surface for the chesspieces the board is marble unfortunately black won t work very well for the one side anybody with ideas for nice surfaces i would also like to use the image command of rayshade and the heightfield command unfortunately the manual is very vague about this and i don t have craig kolb s email address anybody with ideas because this is essential for my next venture into raytracing where should i post the finished chessboard is there anybody else using rayshade on non unix systems how fast does unix render thanks rayshade is the best program for people who loves graphics but have no artistic talent
comp.graphics	interviews graphics package hello i m trying out the c graphics package interviews besides the man pages on the classes i haven t got any documentation is there anything else around furthermore can anyone send me a small example program which shows how to use these classes together i would be very gratefull
comp.graphics	re developable surface in article c x xs khe hkuxb hku hk h hkuxa hku hk abel writes hi netters i am currently doing some investigations on developable surface can anyone familiar with this topic give me some information or sources which can allow me to find some infomation of developable surface thanks for your help abel h hkuxa hku hk a developable surface is s t you can lay it or roll it flat on the plane it may require you to give it a cut though e g a cylinder a cone a plane of course or any surface or patch having vanishing gaussian intrinsic curvature i e with singular hessian the matrix of nd derivatives for an adequate coordinate patch are developable in more technical words a developable surface is locally isometric to a plane at all points think also of the sphere or the earth which in a non developable whatever way s you cut it you will not be able to lay flat any pieces of it its intrinsic curvature is nowhere vanishing for more details on this look at any book on differential geometry which treats surfaces d manifolds e g m do carmo s book book carmo differential author do carmo manfredo p title differential geometry of curves and surfaces year publisher prentice hall note pages enjoy frederic leymarie leyfre mcrcim mcgill edu mcgill university electrical eng dept mcrcim tel university st montreal qc canada h a a fax
comp.graphics	views on isomorphic perspectives i m working upon a game using an isometric perspective similar to that used in populous basically you look into a room that looks similar to the following xxxx xxxxx xxxx xxxx x xxxx xxxx x xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx x xxxx xxxx x x xxxx xxxx x x xxxx o xxxx x xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx the good thing about this perspective is that you can look and move around in three dimensions and still maintain your peripheral vision since your viewpoint is always the same the routines can be hard coded for a particular vantage in my case wall two s rising edge has a slope of i m also using mode x x i ve run into two problems i m sure that other readers have tried this before and have perhaps formulated their own opinions the routines for drawing walls were trivial but when i ran a packed planar image through them i was dismayed by the jaggies i m now considered some anti aliasing routines speed is not really necessary is it worth the effort to have the artist draw the wall already skewed thus being assured of nice image or is this too much of a burden wall presents a problem the algorithm i used tends to overly distort the original i tried to decide on paper what pixels go where and failed has anyone come up with method for mapping a planar to crosswise sheared shape currently i take and produce line follows the slope line is directly under line line moves up a line and left pixels line is under line this fills the shape exactly without any unfilled pixels but it causes distortions has anyone come up with a better way perhaps it is necessary to simply draw the original bitmap already skewed are there any other particularly sticky problems with this perspective i was planning on having hidden plane removal by using z buffering locations are stored in x y z form for those of you who noticed the top lines of wall and wall are parallel with its bottom lines this is why there appears to be an optical illusion ie it appears to be either the inside or outside of a cube depending on your mood there are no vanishing points this simplifies the drawing code for objects which don t have to change size as they move about in the room i ve decided that this approximation is alright since small displacements at a large enough distance cause very little change in the apparent size of an object in a real perspective drawing hopefully the context of the picture ie chairs on the floor torches hanging on the walls will dispell any visual ambiguity thanks in advance for any help till next time o o v o v email pinky tamu edu sam inala v
comp.graphics	re rayshade query in article sunvax sun ac za sunvax sun ac za writes i am also looking for a surface for the chesspieces the board is marble unfortunately black won t work very well for the one side anybody with ideas for nice surfaces how about brass or silver i ve seen real chessboards that use that material where should i post the finished chessboard right here is as good a place as any can t wait to see it i use the pov raytracer is it compatible enough for your chessboard i don t know if you ve got the whole picture or not but it doesn t seem like he s running on all thrusters leonard mccoy a guess you spock that s extraordinary james t kirk brian smith besmith mosaic uncc edu
comp.graphics	re finding equally spaced points on a sphere in article trd rpi edu deweeset ptolemy rdrc rpi edu thomas e deweese writes hello i know that this has been discussed before but at the time i didn t need to teselate a sphere so if any kind soul has the code or the alg that was finally decided upon as the best as i recall it was a nice iterative subdivision meathod i would be very appreciative here is one by andrew graphics gems glassner that i got from a collegue of mine i think i fiddled with it a little bit to make it deal with whatever bizarre problem i was working on at the time but it is known to work spl spheres asg feb spl thu mar est include stdio h include math h define pi struct point struct double x y z static double radius static double xorg static double yorg static double zorg do sphere r freq x y z double r int freq double x double y double z int pole double northy southy poley double rtheta rtheta ntheta ntheta magicangle double theta thetastart thisy den t struct point node pnp struct point struct p p p p n n n n pt radius r xorg x yorg y zorg z north pole magicangle pi northy radius sin magicangle southy radius sin magicangle for pole pole pole if pole poley radius thisy northy thetastart else poley radius thisy southy thetastart for theta thetastart theta theta rtheta theta pi rtheta theta pi p x p y poley p z p x radius cos rtheta p y thisy p z radius sin rtheta p x radius cos rtheta p y thisy p z radius sin rtheta if pole make ring go the other way so normals are right pt x p x pt y p y pt z p z p x p x p y p y p z p z p x pt x p y pt y p z pt z den p x p x p y p y p z p z den sqrt den if den t radius den p x t p y t p z t den p x p x p y p y p z p z den sqrt den if den t radius den p x t p y t p z t den p x p x p y p y p z p z den sqrt den if den t radius den p x t p y t p z t subdivide tri p p p freq now the body for theta theta theta rtheta theta pi rtheta theta pi ntheta theta pi ntheta theta pi p x radius cos rtheta p y northy p z radius sin rtheta p x radius cos rtheta p y northy p z radius sin rtheta p x radius cos ntheta p y southy p z radius sin ntheta p x radius cos ntheta p y southy p z radius sin ntheta den p x p x p y p y p z p z den sqrt den if den t radius den p x t p y t p z t den p x p x p y p y p z p z den sqrt den if den t radius den p x t p y t p z t den p x p x p y p y p z p z den sqrt den if den t radius den p x t p y t p z t den p x p x p y p y p z p z den sqrt den if den t radius den p x t p y t p z t subdivide tri p p p freq subdivide tri p p p freq return define norm pt v register double r sqrt v x v x v y v y v z v z v x r v y r v z r subdivide tri p p p a struct point struct p p p int a struct point struct n n n struct point struct p p p double den t if a p x p x p x p y p y p y p z p z p z den p x p x p y p y p z p z den sqrt den if den t radius den p x t p y t p z t p x p x p x p y p y p y p z p z p z den p x p x p y p y p z p z den sqrt den if den t radius den p x t p y t p z t p x p x p x p y p y p y p z p z p z den p x p x p y p y p z p z den sqrt den if den t radius den p x t p y t p z t subdivide tri p p p a subdivide tri p p p a subdivide tri p p p a subdivide tri p p p a else n x p x n y p y n z p z norm pt n n x p x n y p y n z p z norm pt n n x p x n y p y n z p z norm pt n nothing special about this poly printf f f f f f f n p x xorg p y yorg p z zorg n x n y n z printf f f f f f f n p x xorg p y yorg p z zorg n x n y n z printf f f f f f f n p x xorg p y yorg p z zorg n x n y n z return steve lamont sciviguy spl szechuan ucsd edu san diego microscopy and imaging resource uc san diego la jolla ca my other car is a car too bumper strip seen on i
comp.graphics	re fonts in pov in article qg fc et wampyr cc uow edu au g wampyr cc uow edu au coronado emmanuel abad writes i have seen several ray traced scenes from mtv or was it rayshade with stroked fonts appearing as objects in the image the fonts chars had color depth and even textures associated with them now i was wondering is it possible to do the same in pov hi noel i ve made some attempts to write a converter that reads adobe type fonts triangulates them bevelizes them and extrudes them to result in a generic d object which could be used with pov f i the problem i m currently stuck on is that theres no algorithm which triangulates any arbitrary polygonal shape delaunay seems to be limited to convex hulls constrained delaunay may be okay but i have no code example of how to do it another way to do the bartman may be tga pov a selfmade variation of this using heightfields create a b w picture big of the text you need f i using a postscript previewer then use this as a heightfield if it is white on black the heightfield is exactly the images white parts it s still open on the backside to close it mirror it and compound it with the original example object union height field gif abp gif height field gif abp gif scale texture glass translate center rotate rotate upwards scale scale bigger and thicker translate final placement abp gif is a gif of arbitrary size containing abp black on white in times roman points o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.graphics	psygnosis cd i titles was re rumours about do in article apr rchland ibm com ricardo rchland vnet ibm com ricardo hernandez muchado writes anyway still with mhz you need sprites for a lot of tricks for making cool awesome games read psygnosis speaking of psygnosis they have licensed games to philips interative media international for cd i the following was recently posted in a message in the cd i section of the multimedia forum seventh guest has been licensed by virgin games to philips interactive media international for worldwide cd i rights were also licensed to p i m i litil divil from gremlin graphics uk and microcosm from psygnosis uk those three titles will be adapted on cd i using the full potential of the fmv cartridge meaning using the additional memory as well as the motion video capabilities those titles have been negociated in europe but will be available worldwide also lemmings have been licensed from psygnosis as well as striker soccer from rage uk i don t know when these titles will be available or when work on them even started so don t expect your cd i retailer to have them yet there was also some mention of future nintendo cd i games in an issue of the uk magazine ert mario hotel was mentioned as having levels mark although i work for philips i don t work on cd i or multimedia the above info is just provided in good faith from what i ve read and does not represent any statement from philips mark samson information technology group philips research laboratories cross oak lane redhill surrey rh ha tel my ext tel labs telex fax email seri samson prlhp unix samson prl philips co uk binary files packages prlhp
comp.graphics	re scf files help needed from article apr cx com by tlc cx com i ve got an old demo disk that i need to view it was made using rix softworks the files on the two diskette set end with scf the demo was vga resolution colors but i don t know the spatial resolution according to my colorix manual scf files are x x first problem when i try to run the demo the screen has two black bars that cut across horizontally the screen in the top third and bottom third of the screen the bars are about inch wide other than this the demo the animation part seems to be running fine second problem i can t find any graphics program that will open and display these files i have a couple of image conversion programs none mention scf files you may try vpic i think it handles the color rix files ok rob sherry sherry a cs okstate edu
comp.graphics	re d studio v any differences with previous version as i understand it the difference between d studio and is mainly in the ipas interface along with a few small bug fixes the ipas code runs a lot faster in the newest version chris johnston materials engineer nasa lewis research center internet chris sarah lerc nasa gov brookpark rd ms cleveland oh usa resistance is futile
comp.graphics	re photoshop for windows in article c uhim jfq rot qc ca beaver rot qc ca andre boivert writes i am looking for comments from people who have used heard about photoshop for windows is it good how does it compare to the mac version is there a lot of bugs i heard the windows version needs fine tuning also photoshopii is out soon has anyone got a date and any cofmments andy andrew leahy aleahy cch coventry ac uk odd frog what a piece of work is man how noble in reason how infinite in faculties in form and moving how express and admirable in action how like an angel in apprehension how like a god the beauty of the world the paragon of animals and yet to me what is the quintessence if dust man delights not me shakespeare hamlet
comp.graphics	re tiff philosophical significance of in article alice att com td alice att com tom duff writes ulrich galki toppoint de wrote does anyone have any other suggestions where the came from forty two is six times nine for very small values of six and nine sorry tom i couldn t resist
comp.graphics	graphics formats i m currently looking for information about different graphics formats especially ppm pcx bmp and perhaps gif does anyone know if there exist any files at some site that describes these formats thanks o o erik brenn email erikb idt unit no o oooo faculty of computer science telematics the norwegian institute of technology trondheim oooo not to make sense just cents
comp.graphics	re wanted info on image databases padmini srivathsa in wisconsin writes i would like references to any introductory material on image databases i d be happy to us international snail mail technical information on imaging databases to anyone who needs it if you can provide me with your address for hard copy not email we re focusing mostly on open pace oracle ingres adabas sybase and gupta regarding our imaging databases installed we have over installed and in production now most of the new ones going in are on novell lans the rs and now hp unix workstations we work with visual basic too michael willett office wang com
comp.graphics	problems grabbing a block of a starbase screen at the moment i m trying to grab a portion of a starbase screen and store it in an area of memory the data needs to be in a bit format which shouldn t be a problem as the app is running on a bit screen though i m not too fussy about the exact format i actually intend to write the data out as a tiff but that bits not the problem does anyone out there know how to grab a portion of the screen the block read call seems to grab the screen but not in bit colour whatever the screen window type i get byte per pixel thanks in advance martin martin preston m preston manchester ac uk computer graphics computer graphics unit manchester computing centre is just university of manchester a load of balls manchester u k m pl phone
comp.graphics	re xv under ms dos hi recently i found xv for ms dos in a subdirectory of gnu cc gnuish i use frequently xv on a sun spark station and i never had problems but when i start it on my computer with h option it display the help menu and when i start it with a gif file my hard disk turns or seconds and the prompt come back my computer is a little with copro mega rams tseng m running ms dos with himem sys and no emm sys i had the go exe too but no driver who run with it do somenone know the solution to run xv any help would be apprecied you probably need an x server running on top of ms dos i use desqview x but any ms dos x server should do xx x technical documentation is writing of the words xx x for of the features that only of the customers xx x actually use xx x a pc to xx x i don t have opinions i have factual interpretations the power xx x me of x xx x xx uunet rutgers mcdhup inferno tom can be found at x xx periphonics corporation x xx veterans memorial highway bohemia ny x xx x xx they pay me to write not express their opinions
comp.graphics	closed curve intersection i would like a reference to an algorithm that can detect whether one closed curve bounded by some number of bezier curves lies completely within another closed curve bounded by bezier curves thanks sean t lamont ask me about the wsi fonts zeno genetics washington edu professional collection for next lamont abstractsoft com abstract software
comp.graphics	print graph on printer this seems to be a simple problem but i just cannot solve it i wrote a c program to draw some polygons on the screen and i want to print it on my printer so i press print screen on the keyboard the problem is the printer just print out some ascii characters is there any other way to print the screen without using print screen please help
comp.graphics	is there an ftp achive for usgs terrain data is there an ftp archive for united states geological services usgs terrain data if so where charles boesel diablo creative if pro for and con against cboesel diablo uu holonet net then what s the opposite of progress pager what else congress
comp.graphics	need postscript strokeadjust info i need information on the display postscript strokeadjust feature this feature adjusts the endpoints of lines so that the displayed line looks better on low resolution devices the postscript literature explains the process to some extent they also give an example of how to emulate strokeadjust in postscript environments where it is absent the suggested emulation is to modify the coordinates of the endpoints of a line using the following formula for each coordinate new coord round old coord doing this we end up with all coordinates ending in from reading i thought that what they might actually do is new coord trunc old coord this results in all the coordinates ending in either or whichever is closer by doing some actual comparisons with display postscript i find that neither of these is what dps really uses since i like how the dps result looks better than how my stuff looks i d like to know if anyone who knows how dps does it is willing able to tell me thanks steve squeegee world std com
comp.graphics	package for fashion designer this article was probably generated by a buggy news reader
comp.graphics	packages for fashion designers hello i am looking for commercial software packages for professional fashion designers any recommendation and pointers are greatly appreciated please e mail me if you may thanks a million ge
comp.graphics	mpeg location can anyone tell me where to find a mpeg viewer either dos or windows thanks in advance alan m jackson mail ajackson cch cov ac uk liverpool football club simply the best you ll never walk alone
comp.graphics	color palette for color vga rainbow does anybody out there have or know how to calculate the rgb values required to set the color vga palette so that the colors from will give colors of the rainbow ie red orange yellow etc any help would be appreciated please email to eeerik cc newcastle edu au erik de castro lopo dept electrical computer eng uni of newcastle australia
comp.graphics	attractive drawing on the sphere s p h e r i c a l d e s i g n i n g i have made an attractive program on at computer for drawing on the sphere and pasting it of paper for children artists and education i can send an example to alt source wanted on which you can see the rotation of the sphere if you are interested children can design tesselations of the many famous regular polyhedra without serious difficaltis and print patterns to paste their spherical models moscow tel after o clock or e mail valentin vulihman
comp.graphics	attractive drawing on the sphere subscribe comp graphics quit
comp.graphics	re newsgroup split in article nerone apr sylvester cc utexas edu nerone ccwf cc utexas edu michael nerone writes in article quvdoinn e srvr engin umich edu tdawson engin umich edu chris herringshaw writes ch concerning the proposed newsgroup split i personally am not in also it is readily observable that the current spectrum of amiga groups is already plagued with mega crossposting thus the group split would not in all likelihood bring about a more structured environment am i glad you write that i got flamed all along because i begged not to crosspost some nonsense articles the problem with crossposting is on the first poster i am aware that this posting is a crossposting too but what else should one do you never know where the interested people stay in to split up newsgroups brings even more crossposting jan holler bern switzerland good is not good enough make it better holli holler augs adsp sub org second chance holler iamexwi unibe ch fast mail cbmehq cbmswi augs holli holler cbmvax commodore com
comp.graphics	tom gaskins pexlib vs phigs programming manuals o reilly could someone explain the difference between tom gaskins two books o pexlib programming manual o phigs programming manual why would i want to buy one book vs the other book i have an running sco unix x r on my desktop a sun iv in my lab and access to a variety of other systems alliant fx cray y mp on the network mostly we would like to do d modeling visualization of rat rabbit monkey and human brain structure thanks aj alexander james annala principal investigator neuroscience image analysis network hedco neuroscience building fifth floor university of southern california university park los angeles ca
comp.graphics	re scf files help needed in article apr daimi aau dk rued daimi aau dk writes rix s files with the extension sci and scf are just a raw file with a color palette stuff deleted regards thomas do you happen to know what a sco rix file is alex kiernan akiernan falcon demon co uk
comp.graphics	help miro crystal or ati gup i m planning to buy a new vlb eisa system with a good graphic performance so far i looked at the ati gup vlb as my favorite graphics card but recently i heard something about a new card from miro it was the miro crystal s with mb and true color support up to x it costs just a little more than the ati so can t decide which one matches better my needs any technical references and performance comparisons especially from the miro card would be greatly appreciated peter e mail kohut urz unibas ch universitas basiliensis switzerland
comp.graphics	news re list or image processing systems moscow scientific inductrial association spectrum offer videoscan vision system for pc at wich include software and set of controllers software for support videoscan family program kit was developed kit includes more then different functions for image processing kit works in the interactive regime and has include help for non professional users there are next possibility input frame by any board of videoscan family read white image to from disk print image on the printer makes arithmetic with frames filter image work with gistogramme edit image include users exe modules controller vs the function of vs controller is to load tv images into pc at vs controller allows one to load a fragment of the tv frame from a field of x pixels the clock rate is mhz when loading an image with pixel in the line and mhz when loading a pixels image this provides the equal pixel size of input image in both horizontal and vertical directions the number of gray levels in any input modes is video signal capture time s controller vs the purpose of the controller is to enter the tv images into a ibm pc at or any other machine of that type the controller was created on the base of modern elements including user programmable gate arrays the controller allows to digitize a input signal with different resolutions its flexible architecture makes possible to change technical parameters instead of tv signal one can process any other analog signal including signals from slow speed scanning devices the controller has the following technical characteristics memory volume from k to mb resolution when working with standard video signal from x to x pixels resolution when working in slow input regime up to x pixels video signal capture time ms maximum size of a screen when memory volume is mb x pixels number of gray level clock rate for input up to mhz input video multiplexer input output lookup table lut possibility to realize scroll and zoom lines for external synchronization an input using external controlling signal electronic adjustment of black and white reference for analog digital converter possibility output image to the color rgb monitor one can change all listed above functions and parameters of the controller by reprogramming it image processor vs image processor vs allows to digitize and process tv signal in real time it is possible digitize tv signal with resolution and realize arithmetic and logic operation with two images processor was created on the base of modern elements including user programmable gate arrays and designed as a board for pc memory volume allows write to the frames with format it is possible to accumulate until images the processor has the following technical characteristics memory volume to mb number of the gray level input video multiplexer input output lookup table electronic adjustment for black and white adc reference image size from to possibility color and black white output possibility input from slow scan video sources
comp.graphics	renderman shaders discussion does anyone know of a site where i could ftp some renderman shaders or of a newsgroup which has discussion or information about renderman i m new to the renderman mac family and i d like to get as much info i can lay my hands on thanks andy bates andy bates
comp.graphics	re coreldraw bitmap to scodal in article r gmginn fm zephyr grace cri nz srlnjal grace cri nz writes yes i am aware coreldraw exports in scodal but if you try to export in scodal with a bitmap it will say something like cannot export if anyone out there knows a way around this i am all ears i think one not ideal solution is to use the tracing utility can t remember the name sorry included in the corel draw s w pack it can convert bitmaps to corel art format these can then be imported into a drawing rather than the bitmap result the file is completely in corel format and can be scodal ed no problem but the slight problem with this which makes the solution less than idea is that the trace utility spits out many more points than are necessary to define the shapes being traced straight lines and curves are both traced as many short segments so the scodal taking much longer to image the obvious solution is time consuming stripping out the extra points by hand using corel ouch i ve done it a few times i was just wondering if there was anything out there that just did the bitmap to scodal part a tad cheaper jeff lyall as i say if you don t mind the problems go via the route bitmap corel via trace hand trimming using corel combine with main corel pic via import scodal cheers toby toby freeman glasgow university freemant uk ac glasgow dcs
comp.graphics	pov problems with tga outputs i can t fiqure this out i have properly compiled pov on a unix machine running sunos the problem is that when i run the sample pov files and use the exact same parameters when compiling different tga outputs some of the tga s are okay and other s are unrecognizable by any software help ed edb tamsun tamu edu
comp.graphics	bit graphics i was recently talking to a possible employer mine and he made a reference to a bit graphics computer image processing system i seem to remember it being called image or something akin to that anyway he claimed it had bit color a bit alpha channel that s bits of info what could that possibly be for specifically the bit color that s trillion colors many more than the human eye can resolve is this an anti aliasing thing or is this just some magic number to make it work better with a certain processor also to settle a bet with my roommate what are sgi s flagship products i know of iris indigo and crimson but what are the other ones and which is their top of the line sadly i have access to none of them just a dec sigh eric oehler oehler picard cs wisc edu
comp.graphics	re adobe photo shop type software for unix x motif platforms we have been shipping for over one year the adobe display postscript dps on silicon graphics workstations file servers and supercomputers the adobe illustrator for silicon graphics machines was released last february adobe and sgi announced last october that photoshop will be available on sgi systems in initial release will support bit color graphics ivan bach ib sgi com disclaimer i do not speak for my employer
comp.graphics	re is there an ftp achive for usgs terrain data diablo uucp cboesel charles boesel writes is there an ftp archive for united states geological services usgs terrain data if so where point your gopher client at merlot welch jhu edu and select the following directories search and retrieve software search and retrieve graphics software and data and you ll see graphics online bibliography acm siggraph graphics software and data archives ftp sites search all graphics information search comp graphics faq search graphics resources software and data search pictures utilities faq graphics online bibliography acm siggraph searches and archives of bibliographic database that covers graphics literature for over a hundred years served by a gopher hole in austria graphics software and data archives ftp sites has links to over sites around the world which have software and or data for computer graphics this can be used on its own or as a companion to the searches found in this directory which will point you toward software and data at various places search all graphics information search comp graphics faq search graphics resources software and data search pictures utilities faq these searches contain a wealth of information about computer graphics data software techniques etc search all graphics information will simply search all of the information contained in searches and search comp graphics faq lets you search the faq frequently asked questions from the comp graphics newsgroup compiled by john grieggs at the jpl search graphics resources software and data lets you search the grpahics resource listing of software and data provided by nick fotis at the national technical univ of athens search pictures utilities faq lets you search the faq frequently asked questions from the alt binaries pixutils newsgroup compiled by jim howard at cadence select search all graphics information and search for usgs and you ll find out some information about usgs data availability now select graphics software and data archives ftp sites and you might find the following interesting cartographic data usgs data xerox mapgen plotgen and more usgs usgs weekly seismicity reports including maps gif usgs earth science data directory this actually is a database of available data search it for terrain could prove quite useful one other place to look is only available by anonymous ftp at the moment us geological survey maps isdres er usgs gov if you ve never heard of gopher don t worry it s free and on the net write me a note if you d like information on how to get started best of luck dan jacobson danj welchgate welch jhu edu johns hopkins university
comp.graphics	advice sought turning font outlines into renderable polygons i am seeking some alternate solutions on how to turn a postscript type or truetype font outline into polygons that can be subsequently scan converted by a d scanline renderer i have been studying the problem of font conversion for a few years but have never had the need to implement such a system well i now have the opportunity to write some font rendering software so i would like to have some of my questions answered before i jump into the deep end the main problem i face is how to use the even odd or non winding rules to turn the outlines into a single outline polygon my renderer can handle complex polygons so there is no need to reduce the polygons to simple polygons for example in the letter o there are two outlines the outside outline which is clockwise truetype font the inside outline which is counterclockwise one common solution used by a number of rendering packages is to simply connect the inner outline to the outer outline at the point where the two outlines are closest this is equivalent to descibing a polygon with holes the renderer will then make the appropriate hole since the interior polygon edges are in the opposite direction to the outside edges i do not want to use this simplistic system since it will not handle all outline fonts properly it is not a simple matter to connect the outer outline to the inner outline for some fancy fonts it does not properly handle the even odd or non winding rules from my research over the years the proper solution is to use a trapezoid decomposition algorithm to scan convert the outlines into trapezoids as is done by the postscript and truetype font rasterizers these trapezoidal polygons can then be easily and properly rendered by the d scanline renderer my question is are there any better solutions to turning the outlines into polgyons other than the trapezoid decomposer i am not fond of this solution since it creates excess number of polygons another question for those in the know what is the best algorithm to create bevelled and or offset curves for font outlines i have a dozen papers on these subjects but i can t tell which method is the best to implement thanks for any pointers rob lansdale robert lansdale dynamic graphics project internet lansd dgp toronto edu computer systems research institute uucp uunet dgp toronto edu lansd university of toronto bitnet lansd dgp utoronto toronto ontario m s a canada
comp.graphics	looking for usa map does anyone out there have or know of line drawing usa map thanks very much in advance hoi yoo engr ucf edu
comp.graphics	d files what are they i was chaining around in the anonymous ftp world looking for d studio meshes and other interesting graphical stuff for the program and found a few files with the extension d my ds v doesn t know this type of file so what are they and of course the perennial where are some meshes fli files etc out there i would have thought that someone would have collected a few and put them somewhere but alas i am without this knowledge mucho appreciato douginoz
comp.graphics	ftp for targa i am looking for software to run on my brand new targa if anyone knows of any sites which have useful stuff or if you have any yourself you want to give let me know via mail thanks a lot yayayay jamie ddsw mcs com
comp.graphics	mgr naplps gui bbs frontends hi all i am looking into methods i can use to turn my linux based bbs into a full color graphical bbs that supports pc mac linux and amiga callers originally i was inspired by the naplps graphics standard a summary of which hit this group about weeks ago following up on software availability of naplps supporting software i find that most terminal programs are commercial the only resonable shareware one being pp which runs soley on msdos machines leaving mac and amiga users to buy full commercial software if they want to try out the bbs i know i wouldn t next most interesting possibility is to port mgr to pc mac amiga i know there is an old version of a mac port on bellcore com that doesn t work under system but i can t seem to find the source anywhere to see if i can patch it is there a color version of mgr for linux i know there was an alpha version of the libs out last year but i misplaced it does anyone on this group know if mgr as been ported to pc or amiga i can t seem to send a message to the mgr channel without it bouncing does anyone have any other suggestions for a linux based gui bbs thanks in advan
comp.graphics	gaspra animation quicktime gaspra animation march the gaspra animation is now available at the ames space archives in quicktime format the animation was formed from images taken by the galileo spaecraft shortly before its closest approach to the asteroid in october the animation is available using anonymous ftp to ftp ames arc nasa gov user anonymous cd pub space animation files gaspra qt ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab m s telos it s kind of fun to do pasadena ca the impossible walt disney
comp.graphics	re vga scrolling hi if you want to have soft scrolling on your vga you have to change some intern registers of the crtc but it is a little bit difficult to explain so i would suggest you take a look at the programming of the ega vga adapter by addison wesley you will find all useful descriptions for every available vga register boris dr bobo ponton hanse de boris pruessmann
comp.graphics	q tiff description sorry for wasting your time with a probably simple question but i m not an computer graphic expert i want to read tiff files with a pascal program the problem is that the files i want to read are in compressed form code e g huffman all books articles i found describe only the plain uncompressed format i don t know where to get the original tiff specification furthermore i haven t any access to a realy complete library can anybody direct me to a good book or even better to an specification available via ftp thanks in advance thomas wolf ps direct mail would be prefered
comp.graphics	re why does illustrator autotrace so poorly in article b vmcbrt diablo uucp diablo uucp cboesel charles boesel writes yeah corel draw and wordperfect presentations pretty limited here too since there s no not really such thing as a decent raster to vector conversion program this tracing technique is about it simple stuff like b w logos etc do pretty well while more complicated stuff goes haywire i suspect even though i don t write code that a good bitmapped to vector conversion program would probably be as big as most of these application softwares we re using but even so how come one hasn t been written to my knowledge i mean even hijaak one of the commercial industry standards of file conversion hasn t attempted it yet mac mcdougald any opinions expressed herein the photography center are not necessarily actually univ of tenn knoxville are almost certainly not those mac utkvx utk edu of the university of tennessee mac utkvx bitnet things are more like they are now fax than they ve ever been before
comp.graphics	re tom gaskins pexlib vs phigs programming manuals o reilly merlin neuro usc edu merlin writes could someone explain the difference between tom gaskins two books o pexlib programming manual o phigs programming manual why would i want to buy one book vs the other book i have an running sco unix x r on my desktop a sun iv in my lab and access to a variety of other systems alliant fx cray y mp on the network mostly we would like to do d modeling visualization of rat rabbit monkey and human brain structure rather than decide which book you want to buy you need to decide which programming interface you want to use then buy the appropriate book i wrote an article for the x resource which discusses the differences between phigs and pexlib it will appear in issue which should be out pretty soon but here s a brief summary phigs is a graphics api which was designed to be portable to many devices most implementations support the x window system and take advantage of a d extension to x called pex pexlib is a slightly lower level api which was designed to efficiently support the pex extension to x some advantages of using pexlib integrates with xlib xt motif etc better than phigs provides immediate mode capabilities is free of policy pex supports phigs but is currently being extended to support features not found in phigs like texture mapping anti aliasing pexlib will give you access to all of these features some advantages of using phigs support for multiple devices not just x based ones support for archiving metafiles hardcopy output phigs has predefined input devices to make input easier phigs can handle exposure events and resizing for you phigs can help you with colormap selection creation if you re working strictly in x and don t care about things like archiving i would go with pexlib either way you will find that both api s have a lot in common ralph mor mit x consortium
comp.graphics	re mpeg location alan jackson ajackson cch coventry ac uk wrote can anyone tell me where to find a mpeg viewer either dos or windows thanks in advance alan m jackson mail ajackson cch cov ac uk liverpool football club simply the best you ll never walk alone you can find a windows mpeg viewer at wuarchive wustl edu in the mirrors msdos windows directory tmc tmc spartan ac brocku ca
comp.graphics	re newsgroup split chris herringshaw tdawson engin umich edu wrote concerning the proposed newsgroup split i personally am not in favor of doing this i learn an awful lot about all aspects of graphics by reading this group from code to hardware to algorithms i just think making different groups out of this is a wate and will only result in a few posts a week per group i kind of like the convenience of having one big forum for discussing all aspects of graphics anyone else feel this way just curious daemon what he said tmc tmc spartan ac brocku ca
comp.graphics	re rumours about do in article lot rapnbh h viamar uucp rutgers viamar kmembry writes read issue of wired magazine it has a long article on the hype of do i ve noticed that every article talks with the designers and how great it is but never show any pictures of the output or at least pictures that one can understand gamepro magazine published pictures a few months ago and computer chronicles a program that is syndicated to public tv stations around the nation spent several minutes on it when it was shown at ces it was very impressive what it can do in real time john munsch p s don t take that to mean that i believe that the system is going to take over the world or something just that it clearly has a lot more horsepower than any of the vis cd i sega cd or turbo duo crowd
comp.graphics	re tiff anything in article apr spartan ac brocku ca tmc spartan ac brocku ca tim ciceran writes there is a program called graphic workshop you can ftp from wuarchive the file is in the msdos graphics directory and is called grfwk t zip this program should od everthing you need tmc tmc spartan ac brocku ca thanks it did work and it is just what i needed thanks joshuaf
comp.graphics	re newsgroup split tmc spartan ac brocku ca tim ciceran writes chris herringshaw tdawson engin umich edu wrote concerning the proposed newsgroup split i personally am not in favor of doing this i learn an awful lot about all aspects of graphics by reading this group from code to hardware to algorithms i just think making different groups out of this is a wate and will only result in a few posts a week per group i kind of like the convenience of having one big forum for discussing all aspects of graphics anyone else feel this way just curious daemon what he said ditto here too tmc tmc spartan ac brocku ca joe noble pogo den mmc com all the beauty of a dying vulture the smile of the truly stupid
comp.graphics	loosing color hi guys i am scanning in a color image and it looks fine on the screen when i converted it into pcx bmp gif files so as to get it into ms windows the colors got much lighter for example the yellows became white any ideas thanks dan csc phx vaxc hofstra edu
comp.graphics	color problem i am scanning in a color image and it looks fine on the screen when i converted it into pcx bmp gif files so as to get it into ms windows the colors got much lighter for example the yellows became white any ideas thanks dan csc phx vaxc hofstra edu
comp.graphics	re why does illustrator autotrace so poorly a shareware graphics program called pman has a filter that makes a picture look like a hand drawing this picture could probably be converted into vector format much easier because it is all lines with corel trace etc
comp.graphics	pov ray problem please help hello i ve recently had povray draw about sample files the problem is that i accidently erased the command in my povray def that made the image a targas file so now the files are the dump format how do i fix these files with out having to re trace them by fix i mean turn them into targas thanks in advance jerry jerry m lineberry internet lineber lonestar utsa edu or compuserve
comp.graphics	scip fi fiction set in comp science programming environs scip fi ction set in c sci programming environs list by ian feldman written by book title publisher year pp v isbn john brunner shockwave rider ray ballantine cracking the net to free information for the common good pat cadigan mindplayers an absolute must have bruce sterling pat cadigan synners bantam virtual reality orson scott card lost boys harper collins programmer and family encounters strange events in north carolina denise danks frame grabber st martin s hrdb gbp computer illiterate journalix tracks down murderer via bbs toni dwiggins interrupt a techno mystery set in silicon valley michael frayn the tin men fontana inspired lunacy but out of print david gerrold when harlie was one release bantam william gibson count zero computers as gods part of a trilogy william gibson mona lisa overdrive virtual reality william gibson burning chrome cyberpunk short stories william gibson neuromancer industrial espionage author guilty of inventing the cyberpunk genre james hogan the genesis machine del ray james hogan thrice upon a time time travel for information james hogan the two faces of tomorrow del ray ultimate test of ai os by letting it run a spacelab amok stanislaw lem his master s voice failed attempt to decode et message tom maddox halo remarkable sf of robots artificial intelligence george rr martin nightflyers tor books r a macavoy tea with the black dragon mystery around a computer fraud situation computing bits ring true vonda n mcintyre steelcollar worker in analog nov blue collar vr marge piercy body of glass penguin pp data piracy review finger books body of glass danny orthanc cs su oz au david pogue hard drive diamond pp x programmer dies in accident leaves no documentation behind software firms fight for market share with virii right out of the pages of macworld steve brock richard powers the gold bug variations morrow famous molecular scientist ponders on the why of love life in edp dept paul preuss human error nanotech computer infects brain damaged kid thomas j ryan the adolescence of p ace runaway ai experiment takes over mainframes wrecks havoc bruce sterling the difference engine with w gibson bantam finger books the difference engine danny orthanc cs su oz au cliff stoll the cuckoo s egg non fiction but reads like one review ftp garbo uwasa fi mac tidbits tb mar etx tom t thomas me smart computers vernor vinge across realtime baen books several titles vernor vinge tatja grimm s world baen books soon available vernor vinge the witling baen books as millennium vernor vinge threats and other promises baen books books in uk vernor vinge true names other dangers baen books vernor vinge a fire upon the deep tor books p essentially about the future of the internet john varley press enter short story gruesome but good ed yourdon silent witness computer crime caper story gumshoe has to explain intricacies of computer os to girlfriend herbert w franke das zentrum der milchstrasse the center of the galaxy herbert w franke letzte programmierer the last programmer i do not mean frank herbert emil zopfi computer fuer nacht limmat verlag switzerland emil zopfi jede minute kostet franken last in german last set in the commercial computing world of the early s current version of this list via finger scip fi danny orthanc cs su oz au compiled mail s additions comments updates ianf random se statistical breakdown scip fiction nominations title author books nominated the adolescence of p ryan vinge titles neuromancer gibson gibson titles true names and other dangers vinge ryan the adolescence shockwave rider brunner brunner shockwave rider when h a r l i e was one gerrold gerrold when h a r l i e a fire upon the deep vinge hogan titles threats and other promises vinge lem fiasco hmv solar total nominations authors female sent in by readers contributions by unsorted fifo from sbrock teal csn org steve brock from john lacey johnl cs indiana edu from malloy nprdc navy mil sean malloy from thom kevin gillespie thom silver ucs indiana edu from paul christopher workman pw l andrew cmu edu from kellys code code com kelly sorensen from whughes lonestar utsa edu william w hughes from north tj cc curtin edu au tim north from loreti fnal fnal gov maurizio loreti from stephen hart stephenh cs mun ca from duane f marble dmarble magnus acs ohio state edu from matthias neeracher neeri iis ee ethz ch from wolfram wagner ww mpi sb mpg de from webb tsavo hks com peter webb from setzer ssd comm mot com thomas setzer from kevles acf nyu edu beth kevles from dp world std com jeff delpapa from rsquires cyclops eece unm edu roger squires from hartman ulogic com richard hartman from vernor vinge vinge saturn sdsu edu from paul lebeau plebeau cix compulink co uk from lawrence rounds ljr beach cis ufl edu from phydeaux cumc cornell edu david weingart from chgs vaxa strath ac uk by learning courtesy from rowan fairgrove rowanf cache crc ricoh com from peterc suite sw oz au sw oz au peter chubb x from gara pruesse gara cs toronto edu from russell alpha ersys edmonton ab ca russell schulz from ahm spatula rent com andreas meyer from jon cs washington edu jon jacky from eugene nas nasa gov eugene n miya from a m mair chgs vaxb strathclyde ac uk from mengel dcdmwm fnal gov marc mengel from roger scowen rss seg npl co uk from kevino clbooks com kevin oster system administrator from chavey cs wisc edu darrah chavey from vonda mcintyre mcintyre cpac washington edu from bruce sterling bruces well sf ca us from scott thomas yabiku yabi midway uchicago edu from thomas adshead uad dircon co uk from paul andrews compuserve com mucho thanks to all ian the other internet worm tm feldman ianf random se
comp.graphics	re interviews graphics package rene s dutch student renes ecpdsharmony cern ch wrote i m trying out the c graphics package interviews besides the man pages on the classes i haven t got any documentation is there anything else around furthermore can anyone send me a small example program which shows how to use these classes together i would be very gratefull you might want to try comp windows interviews
comp.graphics	re fractal compression in article inu n lindblat cc monash edu au inu n lindblat cc monash edu au i rachmat writes hi can anybody give me book or reference title to give me a start at fractal image compression technique helps will be appreciated thanx for better worse the source on this on is michael barnsley his article in the science of fractal images peitgen et al is a fair to middling intro barnsley s book fractals everywhere is a more thorough treatment the book covers iterated function systems in general and their application to image compression is clear from the text dr memory jbulf kpc com
comp.graphics	graphics needed i m looking for graphics clipart bmp gif of anything relating to ophthalmology i know it s a weird request anything such as eyeglasses contact lenses eyes would be greatly appreciated thanks
comp.graphics	re jpeg file format peterbak microsoft com peter bako writes where could i find a description of the jpg file format specifically i need to know where in a jpg file i can find the height and width of the image and perhaps even the number of colors being used any suggestions peter try ftp uu net in graphics jpeg chun hung lin l t r csie ntu edu tw communication multimedia lab dept of comp sci info eng national taiwan university taipei taiwan r o c
comp.graphics	easy to translate jpeg code does anyone out there have any jpeg decompression code in pretty much any language that i can read and understand i have trouble understanding the jpeg group s code that i got from an ftp site if any one can send me some good code i will appreciate it a lot thanks stuart denman stusoft u washington edu
comp.graphics	re d files what are they doug hparc aus hp com doug parsons writes i was chaining around in the anonymous ftp world looking for d studio meshes and other interesting graphical stuff for the program and found a few files with the extension d my ds v doesn t know this type of file so what are they they are d object files for cad d a program written by tom hudson for the atari st computers don t know much more about them except that they are stored with the points first then the surfaces are next and are made by listing point numbers that make up the triangle surface then there s a header that describes coloring lighting etc don t know much more than this hope this helps stuart denman stusoft u washington edu
comp.graphics	gif to bmp to saz hook corp mot com sz does anybody know of a program that converts gif files to bmp files sz and if so where can i ftp it from any help would be greatly sz appreciated sure a great shareware program is graphic workshop the newest version is although i don t know where you can ftp it from it also converts to about other formats and does many other things r c v t ell r deluxe sa my address eric vitiello tfd coplex com
comp.graphics	re need a viewer for gl files in article qu i kh dux dundee ac uk dwestner cardhu mcs dundee ac uk dominik westner writes hi the subject says it all is there a pd viewer for gl files for x thanks dominik dominik have you tried xgrasp it s out there on several ftp sites not sure which but archie can find it i m sure it works ok but it lacks an interface jason weiler weilej rpi edu
comp.graphics	ds where did all the texture rules go hi i ve noticed that if you only save a model with all your mapping planes positioned carefully to a ds file that when you reload it after restarting ds they are given a default position and orientation but if you save to a prj file their positions orientation are preserved does anyone know why this information is not stored in the ds file nothing is explicitly said in the manual about saving texture rules in the prj file i d like to be able to read the texture rule information does anyone have the format for the prj file is the cel file format available from somewhere rych rycharde hawkes email rych festival ed ac uk virtual environment laboratory dept of psychology tel univ of edinburgh fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re is kermit available for windows from article a fm b w w vicuna ocunix on ca by steve frampton frampton vicuna ocunix on ca i was wondering is the kermit package the actual package not a yes in the usual ftp sites yek chong
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win storm pc anyone have any info on the video sound card from sigma designs it is called win storm pc they also have another card called the legend lx any info would be appreciated incuding performance pricing and availability thanks srini
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re win doublespace in article hpwala wal hp com chrisa hpwarr hp com chris almy writes doublespace although i do not trust it for my hard disks sounds great for floppies the thouoght of having to mount the disk is anoying but something i can deal with the problem arises when under windows is there a way to mount and unmount while under windows or is this part of the upgrades soon to be available from other vendors chris i can t see why you would not trust it because it is safer than any previous compression programs it integrates into the kernal and makes it nearly impossible to delete
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ms mouse driver does anyone have the documentation for the ms mouse driver i got it when i got windows but my windows manual does not come with the documentation in particular i need to know how to turn it off and how to speed it up outside windows the greater sensitivity is needed so i can play various games esp x wing carlos g niederstrasser only two things are infinite princeton planetary society the universe and human stupidity and i m not sure about the former einstein carlosn phoenix princeton edu space phoenix princeton edu ad astra per ardua nostra
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win icon help please i have win and downloaded several icons and bmp s but i can t figure out how to change the wallpaper or use the icons any help would be appreciated thanx brando ps please e mail me
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	is smartdrv exe causing bad sectors on my hd i am having something very unusual happen first some background on my system i have a mitsubishi meg hard drive and am running smartdrv the version that comes with windows on it i rarely use windows i use a program called disk technician gold v to do diagnostics live time on my hard drive it works by having a device driver detect whenever more than one read is necessary for a file or if there is anything else is wrong with it and minor problems are fully checked out upon rebooting my hard drive is notorious for bad sectors i usually end up with new bad sectors a week here s what happened i ran a program and dtg broke in with an emergency warning and recommended i reboot it gave me this message twice before the program was fully loaded i exited the program and did just this dtg went through its bootup process examining for new errors etc and a screen popped up and said something about sectors for a brief period of time i then went back to the program executed it again and the exact same error was detected i rebooted and tried again and the same error happened again so i removed dtg from memory and went to the program to see if i could detect anything wrong sure enough there was a number of read attempts so i rebooted and reloaded dtg but removed the cache i executed the program no read errors either audible or detected by dtg i quit the program loaded the cache and ran the program again the errors were detected ok so the errors are there and dtg detects but doesn t fix them when the cache is loaded when the cache is not loaded there are no errors so to see if the cache was interfering with any other files i went into xtree gold and tagged all files and searched them for a random string in other words i wanted the program to completely read every file on my hard drive before i got through the c s dtg had detected at least six errors and recommended i reboot does anybody have any idea why smartdrv is causing misreads on my hard drive oh there are exactly two misreads per file and in about every files are affected i originally posted this message to disk technician corp s system but i figured someone out in netland may know enough about smartdrv to help me out internet jdriver netlink cts com john driver uucp ryptyde netlink jdriver netlink online communications public access in san diego ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re ms windows access for the blind in apr seas gwu edu louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis writes at the micro oft display at fose there were a few computers running windows and win apps for the blind i think didn t pay much attention to it but it was there it seems that a particular program designed for blind people is more important than trying to interface windows with a way for blind people to use it if someone made a voice recognition multimedia sound oriented program it would probably been more effective i don t know what the original purpose of interfacing windows was for the person who posted the question though kirk membry our age is the age of industry rutgers viamar kmembry alexander rodchenko
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	why i m not using dos anymore i ve been running dos for about a month i was generally impressed with the improvements the multiple boot configurations were great the new commands were nice and doublespace worked fine twice as slow for large data transfers twice as fast for small with smartdrv until now this morning at am while i was working on my research paper i had to reboot a hung dos program that did no disk i o from within windows when my machine finished rebooting i found my windows directory and about two thirds of my other directories were irreversibly corrupted i cannot afford problems like this i m returning to dos mark p s i ve also noticed bad sector errors from doublespace where none should exist
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help with changing startup logo hello brad monday april brad smalling wrote to crosspost all bs for a vga card these are the correct files but you can t just copy them bs back and expect it to work you have to create a new win com file try bs the command you will have to worry about what directories each file is in bs since i don t know your setup bs copy b win cnf vgalogo lgo vgalogo rle win com bs i grabbed this from supercharging windows by judd robbins great book bs this is also how you can put your own logo into the windows startup bs screen an rle file is just a specially compressed bmp file brad what is the procedure used to specially compress the bmp file i would love to use some of my bmp files i have created as a logo screen thanks chris origin chris doelle f n z fidonet org
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	where to get ati card video drivers fonts does anyone know where i can ftp or somehow else acquire the latest video drivers fonts for an ati svga adapter the only floppy i have is for windows does anyone know if ati is still in business thanks farley access digex com charles u farley average iq of calgary board of ed employee
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	truetype oem font with line drawing characters etc wanted title says it all i m in need of a truetype oem character set font ie one that contains the line drawing and other characters in the pc character set similar to those you get when running a text mode application if anyone could point me at such a thing i d be grateful the only oem fonts included with windows are not truetype regards colin manning
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re help with changing startup logo in article rgtba gtn access digex net farley access digex com charles u farley writes i know this is probably a faq but i installed the s w for my ati graphics card and it bashed my windows logo files when i start windows now it has the logo instead of the logo i thought the files that controlled this were windows system vgalogo rle windows system vgalogo lgo i restored these files but it didn t change the logo anyone know what the correct files are i believe you have the correct files i think what you ll have to do is go back into setup and choose change video adapter or whatever it is called then the trick is choose the same adaptor you currently have what setup does is it actually changes the file win com whenever you go into it and change the video hardware selection it incorporates the contents of vgalogo rle into win com when you do this this trick can also be used to change the startup logo into whatever you want it to be sig alert dbstrutt acs ucalgary ca end sig alert
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re document of rtf in article mar worak kaist ac kr tjyu eve kaist ac kr yu taijung writes does anybody have document of rtf file or know where i can get it thanks in advance i got one from microsoft tech support sterling g bjorndahl bjorndahl augustana ab ca or bjorndahl camrose uucp augustana university college camrose alberta canada
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re winbench help graphics comparison in article c zogd c news udel edu swyatt bach udel edu stephen l wyatt writes i have a question about winbench pc labs thing i have a and a ahead b k card and got these results windows vga driver million ahead b driver winmarks windows svga driver million winmarks i was thinking about upgrading to a diamond x card i read it had about million winmark obviously this is much much greater but is this in color mode or what is this a good card street price is about on my dx mhz mb ram winbench x v m v m v v richard mayston maystonr grace cri nz
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re does dos defragment geoffrey s elbo writes yes and it is the fastest defrag i ve ever watched it did a mb hard disk in minutes i found the ms defrag looks very much like norton speedisk is it just a strip down version of the later i have both norton speedisk and backup so i was wondering if i need to install ms backup richard
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows gripe there s one thing about windows that really frosts me i have mb of ram installed in my system i use a mb mb under windows disk cache and a mb permanent swap file while i can never fill the memory up i still have problems sometimes because i run out of gdi resources what gives i think windows could manage these resources a little better are you using windows or if you re still on devotes about twice as much memory to these and runs out much less frequently if you might use one of the resource monitors such as the one that comes with the windows resource kit or one of the many shareware ones available to see which programs are hogging the resources every icon internal graphics brush etc in every program running uses a certain amount of this limited memory area also some don t give it back when they re finished lamont downs downs nevada edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re winbench jorge erex east sun com jorge lach sun bos hardware writes is there any ftp site that carries winbench results for different graphics cards in excel xls format what is the latest version of winbench and how do they differ is the source available and has anybody try to port it to x window at least in a way that will make comparisons possible on ftp cica indiana edu in pub pc win misc winadv zip is a writeup by steve gibson of infoworld with winbench and a number of other benchmark results for nine isa and four vlb video cards this is a very current upload and is likely to have any card you re currently giving serious consideration not in xls format latest version of winbench that i know of is ver i believe they try to maintain the same rating scale between versions and new versions are released to defeat the lastest coding tricks put in by driver programmers to beat the benchmarks don t know on the last one al devilbiss al col hp com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re norton desktop for windows in article apr exu ericsson se ebuwoo ebu ericsson se james woo writes hi i wonder if anyone has had a chance try out norton desktop for windows version yet i understand the upgrade cost from to is about but i have no idea what the new version has i got the offer to upgrade this weekend it s shipping and handling the s h seem way too steep for just a couple of disks sounds like ripoff city can this purchased at vendors bill volz chevron petroleum technology co earth model interpretation analysis division p o box la habra ca phone fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re does dos defragment in article c h m p news cso uiuc edu rhc uxa cso uiuc edu richard writes geoffrey s elbo writes yes and it is the fastest defrag i ve ever watched it did a mb hard disk in minutes i found the ms defrag looks very much like norton speedisk is it just a strip down version of the later i have both norton speedisk and backup so i was wondering if i need to install ms backup richard yes defragger is come from norton if you have norton utility don t bother
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re pc geos windows os and unix x in sehari vincent iastate edu sehari iastate edu babak sehari writes with my limited knowladge about the pc geos i came out with following comparison pc geos windows os unix x can run win programs nop yap yap nop novell is at least demoing windows apps running under unixware can run unix nop i have not nop yap heard of it try mks mks others esp emx note here the mks toolkit for dos windows os gives you a good suite of standard unix utilities there are other similar systems from other vendors as well the emx system for os gives you most of the standard unix system calls for recompiling your unix programs under os not quite the same thing as actually running unix programs directly in either case but emx makes os almost as compatible with unix systems as many unix systems are with each other and best of all emx is free there is a similar system go for dos but it doesn t work with windows as far as i know price free s a good one costs avaliable on ext card too should add in the cost for dos with both geos and windows neither of which is a standalone os at this point neither os nor unix requires dos btw two of the best unices i ve seen for the pee cee are unixware for the personal edition and linux free so i don t agree that a good one costs and if you really want to check out the various options available to you you should also look into desqview and desqview x cheers chris waters the insane don t judy s in the bedroom xtifr netcom com need disclaimers inventing situations d byrne
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	comments on xtree for windows i am looking for comments on xtree pro for windows i am thinking of buying the product but i have not even seen it yet thank you shane holland holland ug cs dal ca holland ug cs dal ca maurack ac dal ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re is microsoft windows really and ope all icons in program manager are aliases is that explicit enough apparently not many people complain about the confusion that results from the filemanager progman split it s just a basic flaw besides what about the control panel icons where are all those little files
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re is microsoft windows really and operating system well you may think that but you are wrong ah the joys of networking i just hope that you forgot the if you don t like the file manager don t use it i don t i use ndw i like the more modular nature of windoze if you like things to be modular i think you would love system instead of adding a line to your autoexec bat you just drop the icon into the extensions folder just because one has had ignorance sold to one by the evil fruit empire one is not forbidden to learn about one s file system below the level of the gui i m still working on that one
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	sound blaster ver under windows article crossposted from comp speech comp sys ibm pc soundcard comp os linux author was mario lauretti posted on mon apr gmt i have a sound blaster ver when i try to install driver ver driver that comes with window it tell me to upgrade my card first now i have found new drivers from creative labs but i have problems installing it after removing the vsbd old version that come in windows after installing creative sound blaster midi synthesizer i try to install creative sound blaster wave but when i am in the menu add unlisted or updated driver and double click on this driver i have this error driver error cannot load creative sound blaster wave and midi driver the driver file may be missing try installing the driver again or contact your system administrator yes yes yes i have read the readme st and try every thing can somebody help me mario laureti internet laurm tohi dmi usherb ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows gripe in article ppmvf qnh bigboote wpi edu bigal wpi wpi edu nathan charles crowell writes hi there there s one thing about windows that really frosts me i have mb of ram installed in my system i use a mb mb under windows disk cache and a mb permanent swap file while i can never fill the memory up i still have problems sometimes because i run out of gdi resources what gives i think windows could manage these resources a little better does anyone have any input on how to conserve these resources so that i can avoid this problem nate nathan c crowell dept of mechanical engineering acrl worcester polytechnic institute e mail bigal wpi wpi edu costing the net hundreds if not thousands of dollars nathan win has a fixed limit of k gdi memory regardless of physical ram installed this is twice that of win but not nearly robust enough for many developers and power users using amish launch as your shell you can reduce gdi memory usage by as much as over progman ndw dashboard and other graphical type icon based and other shells also nesting and full hot key global support is offered something no other shells have at this time ted matsumura president amish software inc wq
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re atm or truetype which to choose in article c tdgt mqq csn org rjn teal csn org wrote csd keele ac uk c m yearsley writes i ve just bought a pc which came with a bundle of lotus stuff including adobe type manager version as a newcomer to windows i m confused about which i should be using atm or truetype if you are going to stay with atm be sure to upgrade to which replaces who knows how old is is as fast as tt and if you disable the small screen fonts atm does better screen rendering at the smaller point sizes not true both type and tt fonts can be of excellent quality and poor quality at any size it all depends on the font s maker and the complexity of the glyphs related to the size and resolution at which they are viewed probably the reason for your opinion experience that tt is inferior is because most tt fonts on the market today have been converted from type outlines to tt either by the font vendor or end users using fontographer or fontmonger instead of the tt fonts being hand hinted to take advantage of the tt hinting language at best these converted tt fonts will be on a par with the type font of its orgin truetype is a much richer and more robust hinting language than type the hinting of diagonals for instance which tt does and type cannot if you check out the windows core fonts times arial courier symbol wingdings you ll see what can be done with tt there are other fonts out there that have been hand hinted and not just converted some of the microsoft tt font pack fonts are hinted very well you can use both tt and atm fonts at the same time if you like atm type fonts tend to be of higher quality and be more complete in terms of foreign characters again not true the characters in a tt or type font depend on the maker if someone converts a type font to tt they ll only get the characters in the font of orgin tt allows for much more flexibility in this area as well you can have thousands of glyphs in a tt font file mac ps windows unicode char set and use the characters appropriate for the particular platform you are running the font on for instance all or our fontpack tt fonts have the mac windows char set in them the metrics of the fonts are such that if the font is brought over to the mac the user will have access to the full mac char set regards a east harmony road bob niland suite internet rjn csn org fort collins co compuserve hope this clears up some of the confusion feel free to contact me if anyone would like more info regards dave glenn program manager microsoft tt font stuff davidgl microsoft com compuserve
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re does dos defragment in article apr cs brown edu ksl engin nosubdomain nodomain kiseok lee writes from ksl engin nosubdomain nodomain kiseok lee subject re does dos defragment date tue apr gmt in article c h m p news cso uiuc edu rhc uxa cso uiuc edu richard writes geoffrey s elbo writes yes and it is the fastest defrag i ve ever watched it did a mb hard disk in minutes i found the ms defrag looks very much like norton speedisk is it just a strip down version of the later i have both norton speedisk and backup so i was wondering if i need to install ms backup richard yes defragger is come from norton if you have norton utility don t bother don t bother if you have cpbackup or fastback they all offer options not available in the stripped down ms version from cps examples no proprietary format to save space probably no direct dma access and no tape drive you need ms defrag if you use doublespace to work on the compressed volume
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re pc geos windows os and unix x in article sehari vincent iastate edu sehari iastate edu babak sehari writes with my limited knowladge about the pc geos i came out with following comparison pc geos windows os unix x can run dos programs yes yes yes yes needed add lines deleted price free s a good one costs avaliable on ext card too c compiler don t think so yap yap yap c no yap yap yap fortran no yap yap yap debuger yap yap yap min to run dos m mb hard you guys and gals add to this list so we do not throw our many down the tubes with highest regards babak sehari this list appears to imply that ms windows that has a cost listed above at comes with a c compiler c and fortran it does not of course these are expensive add ons that drive the price way beyond i don t know if the same applies to os as far as unix is concerned there is a free unix linux that has cc c fortran f c xwindows and many other features besides with a large number of utilities that can be optionally added and there is also a free bsd i believe both these unix s are quite robust you can check out comp os linux if you don t want to throw our many down the tubes you ve got to break that list down a little more roderick campbell department of physics memorial university of newfoundland st john s nf canada internet rcampbel weejordy physics mun ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows on a ramdrive help f langleyrh ccsvax sfasu edu writes stuff del d for bandwidth s sake why sigh if you don t have more than mbs of memory using a ramdrive with windows is a waste of memory windows will access upto mb ram better as memory as to why what you did didn t work it is because driveletters and paths are stored inside the group pif ini files all of the sudden things went from drive c to drive e however if you wanted to copy an application up to the ramdrive and re setup it up that should work normally but as previously stated this will only hurt things unless you ve got more than mbs of ram and are using whats above as the ramdrive i personally have mb s of ram and run a mb ramdrive with a great deal of success however if you are looking to speed up windows the three things i ve noted that work the best are a graphics accellerator card a co processor even an emulator helps some other disk cache besides smartdrive i ve tried several and lightning for windows and norton cache give me major headaches as well i think the purpose the original poster was trying to serve is to avoid the significant amount of disk access that windows does on startup it s like it s trying to it s bit in wearing the damn drive out i estimate it s only reading a mb of programs data but from the performance the drive gives it sounds like they are scattered all over the drive my drive is however regularily compressed what is it that takes so much fuss perhaps if ms would take the trouble to optimize this startup process less people would be wanting to find a solution themselves
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re pc geos windows os and unix x in article c he i q news ucs mun ca rcampbel weejordy physics mun ca roderick campbell writes there is a free unix linux that has cc c fortran f c xwindows and many other features besides with a large number of utilities that can be optionally added and there is also a free bsd i believe both these unix s are quite robust you can check out comp os linux i dunno about linux but for bsd don t forget networking well tested at that nfs a fast incredibly stable filesystem and the list goes on for us bsd folk look in comp os bsd chris moderator of comp os bsd announce anti politician and sometime evangelist chris g demetriou cgd cs berkeley edu bsd as depth first search whenever you go to fix something you find that more things are actually broken adam glass
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re win nt in article pq v kkt gazette bcm tmc edu raymaker bcm tmc edu mark raymaker says is anyone aware of existing ipx netx software for windowsnt or is attachment to netware a future release please respond to internet mail raymaker bcm tmc edu thanks i believe the beta version of the service is available via ftp on ftp cica indiana edu in pub pc win nt called something like nwnt zip there is an index ascii file there which lists the programs in that directory and what they do unfortunately this beta will also disable netbeui and tcp ip over your primary nic so if you really want to run it get yourself an extra nic and bind it to that otherwise wait for next release like i am adriene
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dos emm windows prob has anyone else experienced problems with windows hanging after the installation of dos i have narrowed the problem down to emm if if remove or disable emm windows is ok if emm is active with noems windows hangs if i use auto with emm the system hangs on bootup dave david clarke the well is deep wish me well ac freenet carleton ca david clarke mtsa ubc ca clarkec sfu ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows shareware monthly information windows shareware monthly wsm is an on line forum for information about the newest and best windows x and nt shareware freeware software wsm is a compilation of submissions from shareware freeware authors in a single windows hlp help system file all types of software may be submitted for entry in wsm utilities applications games programming tools etc wsm benefits windows shareware freeware authors by allowing them to publicize their software releases inform users of updated versions and to increase their installed base of users those searching for specific windows software will benefit by having a complete list of available software available at their fingertips complete with feature lists current prices and any other relevant information windows software authors may submit entries to windows shareware monthly in the following manner compose a short summary of the function of the software include all special features which are unique to your product and which set it apart from other programs in the genre be sure to include specific details such as the current release version where the software is available how much the registration fee costs how much disk space is required any special requirements e g sound card or vbrun dll etc how the author may be contacted etc because text is highly compressible the summary may be as long as is necessary however it is best to keep it short a good guideline is a single screenful of point text at x resolution order forms and other such addendum may be included if desired all submissions whould be in plain text ascii format formatting will be exactly as it is submitted i will simply cut and paste text files into a help authoring system if you require special formatting conventions such as boldface text or italics or a larger font size indicate so clearly within the text file for best results use windows notepad to create the txt file include up to k of windows format bmp bitmap screen shots which display the workings or special features of each program special cases rendering applications for example which require color bitmaps may submit up to k of bmp files all other should observe the k limit and use color format for maximum compatiblity with the software which will be used to create the wsm hlp file stefan olson s help writer s assistant for windows please save the bitmaps with windows paintbrush or wingif include a color bmp of the program s icon ico file many programs are available to convert ico to bmp format or windows paintbrush may be used the bmp will be embedded in the summary text double check for spelling errors formatting corrections etc compress the txt file the bmp of the program icon and any additional bmps into a single file using pkzip any version submit the entry by uuencoding the zipfile and e mailing it to daa tamuts tamu edu if submitting via the internet or compuserve if submitting via america online send a brief message indicating submission and append the zip file then e mail to diegoaa if any changes are required or a new version is released complete the above procedures again send all submissions to the tamuts address and any comments suggestions criticisms to daa rigel tamu edu all entries received before the deadline will be included in the subsequent edition of wsm the editor will not be held responsible for any errors and we reserve the right to make changes to the entries wsm is not limited to shareware freeware software a special area will be devoted to commercially available windows x and nt software commercial software authors should follow the same steps above with the exception of the limitations on size the txt file and bmps may be as large as required and as large as is practical for transmission over phone lines there is no charge for the publishing of either shareware freeware or commercial product entries advertisements for computer hardware software bulletin boards etc may be submitted as well again the same procedures apply with the exception of the size limitations there is no charge for advertising space the first ten advertisements submitted each month will be included subsequent submissions will not be included due to size constraints wsm is currently looking for persons willing to devote the time to author columns within wsm a c c programing section a visual basic section and two windows specific opinion advice columns are envisioned all work will be on a voluntary basis if you wish to aid wsm and author a monthly column on one of the above topics please send us mail at daa tamuts tamu edu or diegoaa on america online the first edition of wsm will be distributed may st via america online compuserve and the internet the deadline for submissions is april th the first edition filename will be wsm zip with each subsequent monthly release continuing in the series naming convention wsm zip etc each edition will be released on the first of each month and the deadline for submission will be at least three days before release
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re atm or truetype which to choose in article apr microsoft com davidgl microsoft com david glenn writes again not true the characters in a tt or type font depend on the maker if someone converts a type font to tt they ll only get the characters in the font of orgin tt allows for much more flexibility in this area as well you can have thousands of glyphs in a tt font file mac ps windows unicode char set and use the characters appropriate for the particular platform you are running the font on well yes both type and truetype fonts can contain lots of characters and in both cases plain text fonts will be reencoded to windows ansi in windows and to mac standard roman encoding on the mac no difference there between t and tt and as for fonts with thousands of glyphs right know these are a liabiliaty rather than a great new thing reason is that a font with characters is very large and if you can only access of them you are paying a heavy price in downloading time and printer storage and at the moment there is only one program of that uses partial font downloading for instance all or our fontpack tt fonts have the mac windows char set in them the metrics of the fonts are such that if the font is brought over to the mac the user will have access to the full mac char set yes and t text fonts all have the iso adobe character set which is a superset of windows ansi and macintosh standard roman enocding the question is whether you can get at the glyphs in windows for example you cannot get at the ligatures fi anfd fl both t and tt even though a font may very well have them and while it is somewhat painful to reencode a type font and to create a new windows metric file pfm for it there are utilities out there to allow you do this how do i reencode a truetype font how can i get at the fi and fl ligatures in windows or on the mac are there utilities that make it possible to circumvent the hard wired windows ansi encoding regards a east harmony road bob niland suite internet rjn csn org fort collins co compuserve berthold k p horn cambridge massachusetts usa
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	terminal software please reply via email when i use the terminal software for windows such as terminal exe or crossttalk it doesn t use the whole window i mean when the software s window size is max it still scrolls around the of window it does not use whole window i set stty rows but still the same scrolls at from the top of the windows could anyone tell me how to setup these software to use whole window thanks in advance
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re pkunzip g in article pn tr l dekalb dc peachnet edu kenneth dekalb dc peachnet edu kenneth palmertree writes hey does anyone know of an ftp site where i can get pkunzip g from i tried using archie with no such luck this version of pkunzip is suppose to correct some promblems when using pkunzip within windows thanks in advance you can get pk from ftp cica indiana edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ottomenu where can i get it i ve heard about ottomenu which should be a good desktop on windows can anybody tell me where i can get it it should be on cica in pub pc win util but it is not it is also not an wustl simtel and a great number of other sites just post it or mail me andreas gloege kazmaierstr bei klarmann muenchen email gloege informatik tu muenchen de
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	rfd comp databases access this is an official rfd for the creation of a new newsgroup for the general discussion of the microsoft access rdms name comp databases access moderation unmoderated at this time no need for a moderator has been assertained future evaluation will determine if one is needed purpose access is a new rdbms for the windows operating system it includes wysiwyg design tools for easy creation of tables reports forms and queries and a database programming language called access basic the purpose of the group will be to provide help to people who use access s wysiwyg design tools to create simple databases as well as to people who use access basic to create complex databases rationale eventhough access is a new rdbms it is very popular because of its graphical development enviroment and its initial low price been a version product means that all access users are novices for that reason a newsgroup is needed where access users can discuss their experiences with the product and answer each other s questions napoleon mau herky cs uiowa edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re atm or truetype which to choose tt for true effects for windows games max u washington edu writes in article apr seas gwu edu lai seas gwu edu william y lai writes in article ov rj gev gabriel keele ac uk csd keele ac uk c m yearsley writes i ve just bought a pc which came with a bundle of lotus stuff including adobe type manager version as a newcomer to windows i m confused about which i should be using atm or truetype there is a program called true effects for windows that allows you to define attributes for true type fonts and have them look like new fonts it will give your font different backgrounds or shadows or reverse etc it only works with tt fonts yes and the idea was ripped off from adobe which has had a program called typealign for a few years now typealign does the same thing for adobe type fonts and adobe has said that the next version will work with both adobe type and truetype and typealign does some things that trueeffects does not including some things you apparently want if you want to use it you best not want to use it with an atm type font oh yeah lest you think this is a really cool program none of the effects are scalable like the brick background pattern is the same size whether your font is point of point and it is not extensible i e you can not add pattern of your own and you can t rorate the background pattern and you can t make the pattern extend beyond one character every character in that new font has the entire pattern in it as opposed to having the same pattern run contiguously through a couple of characters it is however cheap maybe i will buy a copy when the next version comes out if they fix some of these gripes john
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mirosoft office package i am in charge of purchasing some computer software for a small office and i have a few question about microsoft s office pack i was wondering are the programs that are packaged with the office pack winword power point excel and ccmail complete and the latest addition are the programs hobbled in any way can we update single programs at a latter date i e from excel to excel do you receive all of the necessary disks and documentation is there anything that i should be aware of that makes the office package less of deal that it seems sorry if i seem skeptical put the price for the office package on the street sounds like a great deal for the office that is purchasing its first computer and software but all four complete programs for less than makes me just a little suspicious maybe its just me thanks for your help in advance kirt wilson northwestern university internet kwilson casbah acns nwu edu bitnet kwilson casbah
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dos doublespace stacker is it okay just as the title suggest is it okay to do that i havne t got dos yet but i heart doublespace is less tight than stacker what are disadvantage advantages by doing that any comments will be appreciated martin
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re amipro deskjet printing problem tom belmonte x tbelmont feds prime com wrote hello i recently tried to print some envelopes using amipro with my deskjet printer and i seem to be having a problem what happens is after i physically load the envelope into the printer per the user manual and then select the print envelope icon from amipro all of the proper options have been selected the printer just spits out the envelope without any printing of either a return address or the selected mailing address at this point the printer s online light begins to flash and the print manager shows the printer job as busy this is all that happens until i either shut the printer off or cancel the printing job from the print manager i have also tried this without the use of the print manager with similar results amipro shows the printer as being busy so does anybody have any idea solution regarding this problem i appreciate the help thanks yes ignore the manual just insert the evelope don t use the keypad to move it up the windows driver sends a message to the printer that tells it to load the envelope if it is already loaded it gets ejected and the printer tries to load another the instructions in the manual are for dumb dos apps that don t send the load envelople message tom belmonte bob taylor hp vancouver
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re winbench help graphics comparison in article pqd hinnbmi zephyr grace cri nz srg sir grv grace cri nz writes in article c zogd c news udel edu swyatt bach udel edu stephen l wyatt writes i have a question about winbench pc labs thing i have a and a ahead b k card and got these results windows vga driver million ahead b driver winmarks windows svga driver million winmarks i was thinking about upgrading to a diamond x card i read it had about million winmark on my dx mhz mb ram winbench x v m v m v v be very careful with these results as i recall numbers from winbench are calculated differently from and so these figures are not comparable however to answer stephen s question replacing the ahead b card with a diamond x will yield a cost effective dramatic speed increase for windows that or the ati graphics ultra plus greg franklin franklig gas uug arizona edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re winbench al col hp com al devilbiss writes jorge erex east sun com jorge lach sun bos hardware writes is there any ftp site that carries winbench results for different graphics cards in excel xls format what is the latest version of winbench and how do they differ is the source available and has anybody try to port it to x window at least in a way that will make comparisons possible on ftp cica indiana edu in pub pc win misc winadv zip is a writeup by steve gibson of infoworld with winbench and a number of other benchmark results for nine isa and four vlb video cards this is a very current upload and is likely to have any card you re currently giving serious consideration not in xls format latest version of winbench that i know of is ver i believe they try to maintain the same rating scale between versions and new versions are released to defeat the lastest coding tricks put in by driver programmers to beat the benchmarks don t know on the last one and why they are considering using winbench as a test they may want to read everything steve gibson has said on the subject in his infoworld column the past couple of month in short virtually every board manufacturer cheats on the test by writing things in the driver that is there only to make the board appear faster on the winbench suite so the winbench score has no bearing in reality to how cards stack up on real world tasks in the last pc magazine they benchmarked some of the new accelerators and admitted that many of them cheated on winbench interestingly they allowed one type of cheating behaviour caching for bitblt operations no matter how unreal yet did not allow a couple of other types of cheating behaviour that some of the cards used at least one card was eliminated from the editor s choice because of cheating on the benchmark al devilbiss al col hp com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re is microsoft windows really and ope in article pr r t c agate berkeley edu neff garnet berkeley edu stephen kearney writes apparently not many people complain about the confusion that results from the filemanager progman split it s just a basic flaw i have one thing to say why does everyone say that spliting them up is such a bad thing i actually like my program launcher and file manager do be seperate it make things easier to figure out i mean take a look at os s wps no flames i personally hate it cause i just have too much trouble figuring out how to do simple things like file copy and don t say just drag the icon cause i hate icons in the first place i have too much trouble telling what all those little push buttons mean i want f ile c opy etc although i know i m in the minority swyatt brahms udel edu no disclaimer i blame everything on someone else
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re winbench ok so if everyone is cheating is there any tests that run some macro to load a huge drawing etc on the same machine that might then tell us what the real world results are i mean run the tests on the same machine with different video cards running word excel or something like that to see how fast the cards are swyatt brahms udel edu no disclaimer i blame everything on someone else
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re mouse on com om or com in windows in article c v p jyf bcstec ca boeing com isbell bcstec ca boeing com robert isbell writes jpaparel cs ulowell edu joseph paparella writes i am having a problem configuring the mouse in windows to use com with irq com and com are being used to support two hour bbs lines there you go com and com use the same irq therefore you can t use a mouse on com and a modem on com or vice versa it s a limitation of dos and in fact windows will not see a mouse on anything other than com or com accept this fact and either get a bus mouse or get a new computer i would also like to know if it is possible to use the mouse on ports other than com or com no the advice above applies greg franklin franklig gas uug arizona edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re ami pro and equation mode nagel ucsu colorado edu kurt nagel writes hi i m having a problem with amipro when writing equations if the equation extends past a certain point on a line the whole thing disappears if i then try to delete the equation or cursor beyond the equation ami goes nuts the line counter at the bottom of the screen increments repeatedly and the only way out is to ctrl atl del if i have been unfortunate enough to save a document with one of these screwed up equations the document is basically trashed although i have been able to fix them by going into an ascii editor and deleteing large chunks of the document has anyone else experienced this does lotus know about it and or have a patch thanks in advance kurt nagel fido colorado edu i contacted lotus about this problem today it has been reported previously and there is a fix apparantly the problem only occurs when tab characters are used immediately preceding the equation frame the work around when equations are expected to touch the right margin is to delete at least one preceding tab and use space to align the frame or use set frame where placed w no text wrap around unforutnately once the page run on has occured you are hosed so the moral of the story is use only space characters to align equation frames hope this helps the rest of you who have already contacted me with this problem kurt nagel fido colorado edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	hercules graphite has anyone used a hercules graphite adapter it looks good on paper and steve gibson gave it a very good review in infoworld i d love to get a real world impression though how is the speed drivers support looking for something to replace this ati ultra with tom haapanen tomh metrics com software metrics inc waterloo ont stick your index fingers into both corners of your mouth now pull up that s how the corrado makes you feel car january
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re does dos defragment in article apr seas gwu edu louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis writes well the subject saysit all does dos do defragmentation yes both dblspaced and non dblspaced drives can be defragmented i believe they use norton s speedisk brian t mcgloin lift your glasses friend with mine ncr corp and raise your hand with me usg iss ols i m england stole i m ireland spent miamisburg oh i m an outlawed rapparee
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re mouse on com om or com in windows jpaparel cs ulowell edu joseph paparella writes i am having a problem configuring the mouse in windows to use com with irq i don t believe irq is the problem i tried a mouse on com irq the usual place and it still did not like it simply windows seems to only support mice on com or com the funny part is though that microsoft s own mouse driver xx was quite happy with my mouse sitting on com why can t windows use the mouse driver or at least support com com irq com irq com irq maxcomport i ve tried this too actually i wanted to be able to use my second modem com irq from windows it still will not talk to that modem i created two profiles amstrad for my amstrad modem on com irq and maestro for my maestro on com irq it will not talk to the maestro at all that their driver does not support com and com in windows their suggestion was that the microsoft or ps setting in windows setup would work it does not nor here windows i can not believe that it is not possible at worst you would need a special version of a mouse driver that looked at com and com instead of com and com i know that irq and irq are normally printer port irqs but i i ve seen nothing like that i ve experimented with logitech s mouse driver too with no sucess have no printers attached a side note is that i would really like to assign com to some higher irq because my soundblaster board uses irq right now i m not using com but no modem that i know of allows settings other than irqs and if you have a soundblaster pro it should support irq as well finally a board that supports irqs the only one i have except my ide controller hamish hamish moffatt hamish cloud apana org au apana the australian public cloud nine bbs fidonet access network association melbourne australia intlnet mail info apana org au titanic software voice for information
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	version control for mac and pc lan we have a lan where we are doing development on product for multiple platforms for the moment we are only working on mac and dos windows the department has always used sneaker net to transport files to the mac since it requires a filter to strip out the lf characters until recently no one concidered using any version control to mediate and as a result the programmers spent a great deal of time merging files together at the end of each week so that a new system could be build we are now trying to streamline this process but are hampered by the lack of software that will allow us to share files across pc and mac platforms i understand that pvcs used to do this but that they no longer support the mac product anyone know why polytron i have seen people ask about development in multiple platforms so i assume that ours is not a new problem who has had to deal with it what solutions have you come up with thanks in advance for any and all suggestions via posting or email if there are enough email responses then i will post a synopsis of the knowledge charles emmons charles emmons charles trintex uucp these opinions are prodigy services co charles trintex uunet uu net mine alone unless white plains ny voice you would like to prodigy id kjrd a fax share them
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	file downloading as a beginer i just wonder how to transfer files from the sun system which is on the network to my pc at home not connected to the network i tried to use comit to do so but it was very slow and it seemed that getting multiple files at the same time was impossible could anybody give me some hints infomation thank you in advance liu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re permanaent swap file with dos dbldisk in comp os ms windows misc you write while reading through the dos book it states that the windows permanaent swap file will not work correctly when placed on a compressed drive to make things compatable i removed my permanent swap file before starting the upgrade however when all the dust settled and i go into windows it says that the temporary swap file is right where it always was in the windows directory my question is how come the temporary swap files works ok with a compressed drive and the permanent one doesn t you might want to look in windows faq for this one but here is my best explanation but i can t guarantee that i m not way off base the permenant swap file is read written to by windows by talking directly to the hard disk controller card the controller card must use the protocal set up by western digital or something like that windows creates a file called spart par in your windows directory that points to that file it then uses the physical information about your disk to index to information in that file compressed disks are actually logical disks these disks have different characteristics than the actual physical disk furthermore the information on the compressed disks must be uncompressed before it is used i e it must go through the decompression program that traps disk reads at the operating system level or the bios level because of this inbetween program windows cannot use direct methods to read from the logical disk a permenant swap file is only there to reserve an area of the disk that windows can use and to block that space from dos windows would theoretically not even have to access the file from dos to use that disk space i don t know if it does or doesn t but it checks for it somewhere everytime you boot windows a temporary swap file is just a normal dos file that is accessed by windows via dos and the bios if a disk compression program or other tsr is loaded the file access must go through dos tsr s disk compression and bios in order to be access i e never use a temporary swap file never more on permenent swap files i m sure everyone who has an uncompressed part of their compressed hard disk has seen the message you have selected a swap file greater than the suggested size windows will only use the size suggested do you wan t to create this swap file anyway or something like that well a friend of mine robert called microsoft and asked them what and why what they said is that windows checks the amount of free disk space and divides that number by then it checks for the largest contiguous block of free disk space windows then suggests the smaller of the two numbers they also said that under absolutely no circumstances none will windows uses a swap file larger than the suggested size well that s what he said i call bull if this is true why does windows report the memory is available to me if it s not going to use it any takers james if this doesn t get to the net will someone post it for me thanks
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re help with winqvt this is the qvthost rc file the host file requires the names that you ll be using in addition to the ip address sucb as name server name name router name carols ohsu edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re hercules graphite in article apr metrics com tomh metrics com tom haapanen writes has anyone used a hercules graphite adapter it looks good on paper and steve gibson gave it a very good review in infoworld i d love to get a real world impression though how is the speed drivers support the pc world reviewers found out that the herc people had hard coded winbench text into the driver clever no in any case the winbench results are pretty much inflated when and if you get one send me mail i might buy that ati gu off you iskandar taib the only thing worse than peach ala internet ntaib silver ucs indiana edu frog is frog ala peach bitnet ntaib iubacs
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re help with winqvt swartzjh nextwork rose hulman edu jeff h swartz writes when i use a name such as rosevc rose hulman edu initiating nameserver query for rosevc nameserver query time out when i use the ip number local host or gateway not responding i know the nameserver is correct and the router is correct they work fine using ncsa telnet ftp they are working ok but your definitions in qvtnet ini and qvthost rc are incorrect see below the docs said if you are running concurrent packet software you need to load pktmux does this apply to me no i don t think so you are using qvtnet and novell concurrently aren t you they use different packet types so qvtnet tcp ip and novell ipx spx should be able to coexist just fine pktmux is required if you are using different tcp ip packages concurrently this is the qvthost rc file there is the first problem you didn t specify hostnames just ip addresses your file should look like this name of your nameserver name of your router this is the beginning of the winqvt ini file net name swartzjh test rose hulman edu here you should only specify your hostname without the domain part router instead use router name of your router as specified in your qvthost rc i know the release notes for say that ip addresses should work also but apparently they don t nameserver here too you should use the hostname of the nameserver instead of the ip address it worked fine for me that way although i could not specify more than one nameserver the relnotes say it should be possible to specify up to three nameservers separated by commas but it didn t work hope it helps richard dr richard spitz internet spitz ana med uni muenchen de edv gruppe anaesthesie tel klinikum grosshadern fax munich germany
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows general questions in article heimdall sdrc com crgruen sony sdrc com robert gruen writes i received amish utilities for windows when i purchased turbo c for windows what is amish utilities what can it do for me all i received was the disk no docs maybe it milks the dogcow i am running windows in x x mode using a driver that was supplied with my svga card the card is a boca svga card with meg ram and i think it has an et chip in it at least thats what some program tells me the driver is an old driver that was written for windows it seems to work fine but would i gain any benefits by switching to a newer driver if so which one should i use and where could i find it lots of drivers are available off ftp cica indiana edu in pub pc win drivers video i ve tried two et cview zip and et turbo zip these give you a choice of turbo and non turbo drivers the turbo drivers were fast but caused mouse problems with my machine which has a diamond speedstar card i finally got turbo drivers wndspeed by binar from diamond amazing blazingly fast for a non accelerated card and best of all no gpf s for a month or so iskandar taib the only thing worse than peach ala internet ntaib silver ucs indiana edu frog is frog ala peach bitnet ntaib iubacs
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	fall comdex does anyone out there have any info on the up and coming fall comdex i was asked by one of my peers to get any info that might be available or could anyone point me in the right direction any help would be appreciated dave stevens dls psuvm psu edu training and multimedia services dls psuvm penn state university
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re using microsoft foundation classes with borland c thanks for the info i assume that this is for mfc does anyone know if this will work with mfc or what else needs to be done thanks andy jacobs
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how to fix word subscript spacing hi i have a problem when using subscripts with msword the problem is the subscripted characters get cut off on the display but print out ok anyone know how to fix the subscripts so i can see them on the screen many thanks howard howard moy
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	character codes problems help i am working on a project that involves using text with foreign language characters in this case norwegian i have been manipulating the data with excell and then exporting the data as comma seperated variable files to an rs workstation the norwegian characters show up fine under windows but appear as funny characters on the workstation the workstation is setup for national language support and we have problem entering the norwegian characters from the workstation keyboard on further investigation i found that the character codes used by windows are different for these characters than those specified by the msdos code page the msdos codes seem to be the same as the workstation what gives and how can get around it please reply by e mail as i will be out of the office the next few days and will not be reading the news thanks
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	faster oak vga drivers i m using an oak based vga card on my computer x x i ve downloaded the driver from ftp cica indiana edu and i ve had good luck with it however does anyone know if a faster driver is available for this card thanks mike michael j mccollister phone harris corporation email p o box mmccolli su l ess harris com mailstop palm bay florida i m not going to say anything stupid today not
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	word help hello i m having problems printing spanish characters with wfw i was using the celtic true type which has the accented characters and used insert symbol to put in in the document however when i put it in the doc i get a big square character and then it prints out just the same to my dismay thinking that was just the way it worked can anyone tell me if and how they have printed spanish characters i know wp has this built in but i do not recall ever seeing this option on wfw help robert s dubinski aliases include robb regal sir mr and i marquette university math computer science double major internet address a dubinski vms csd mu edu milwaukee wi
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	is there any documentation for microsoft diagnostics hi i found what i believe is an undocumented feature in my windows directory microsoft diagnostics ver i am specifically interested in a more in depth explanation of the legends in the memory mapping report thanks chak aw chakaw u washington edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re postscript view for dos or windows i ve been using version of ghostscript and i m quite satisfied with it there are actually versions a plain dos version a version and a windows version harvey stein hjstein math huji ac il
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re multiple desktops in article c bht qf news hawaii edu dmcgee uluhe soest hawaii edu don mcgee writes is there a free share ware package that will allow multiple desktops in windows what is desired is to have a desk top for several people that each can personalize by name and choice of programs etc there s a package called workspace on cica that has desktops i haven t done much with it yet but it seems to be able to do what you want it to don t have the exact archive name handy but it s something like wspace blah zip tom finn convex com i speak only for myself peace is the name of the ideal we have deduced from the fact that there have been pauses between wars jerry pournelle in the mercenary
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	nd rfd comp databases ms access this is the nd reguest for discussion rfd for the creation of comp databases ms access the discussion period started on april and it will last until april days this is an official rfd for the creation of a new newsgroup for the general discussion of the microsoft access rdms name comp databases ms access moderation unmoderated at this time no need for a moderator has been assertained future evaluation will determine if one is needed purpose access is a new rdbms for the windows operating system it includes wysiwyg design tools for easy creation of tables reports forms and queries and a database programming language called access basic the purpose of the group will be to provide help to people who use access s wysiwyg design tools to create simple databases as well as to people who use access basic to create complex databases rationale eventhough access is a new rdbms it is very popular because of its graphical development enviroment and its initial low price been a version product means that all access users are novices for that reason a newsgroup is needed where access users can discuss their experiences with the product and answer each other s questions napoleon mau herky cs uiowa edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wanted dialog box to select file s for dos apps i m looking for a program that will let me use a windows common dialog box to select a file to use when running a dos app basically i have several dos apps that i use now and then with different files they all accept a file as a command line parameter but the only way at least that i know of to do this easily when running them from windows is to set up the pif file so that it prompts me for additional parameters at which point i type in the file name problems are sometimes i can t remember where the file is exactly located and it would be nice to browse my directories for it without having to use the file manager and i m lazy and hate to type long pathnames for files burried several directory levels deep if anyone can point me to such a program or let me know of some other way to handle this i d appreciate it thanks tim the net isn t organized enough to be considered an anarchy reczek autarch acsu buffalo edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win nt what is it two part question what is windows nt a real windows os this past weekend a local hacker radio show metioned a new product from microsoft called chicago if i recall anyone know what this is that is it thanks a heap alan alan s olson swanson environmental inc e mail to alanchem csd csd uwm edu or alan alchemy chem uwm edu want some good music check out milwaukee s own bodeans
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re copy move files in file manager in article c tsf ye murdoch acc virginia edu rsc e orion lib virginia edu scott crittenden writes my understanding is that to copy files from one directory to another on the same drive in file manager using a mouse you hold down the ctrl key while dragging the file from one directory s window to the other this works for me about of the time the other the file gets moved rather than copied anybody else encountered this i tried to respond by email but all attempts bounced the condition of the ctrl key before you press the mouse button makes no difference whatsoever you have to be holding the ctrl key when you release the mouse button if you want to force a copy operation here s a simple experiment select a file and begin to drag it no ctrl key notice that the file s icon disappears from the listing window now watch what happens to that icon as you press and release the ctrl key keeping the mouse button pressed all the while in addition the icon that you are dragging will show a while you are holding the ctrl key indicating that the file is being copied rather than moved bob nichols at t bell laboratories rnichols ihlpm ih att com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re can i change licensed to data in windows have you tried re installing the software otherwise i would be dubious about simple ways to change that screen is it not designed to be an embarassment to would be pirates charles charles emmons charles trintex uucp these opinions are prodigy services co charles trintex uunet uu net mine alone unless white plains ny voice you would like to prodigy id kjrd a fax share them
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re multiple desktops in article c bht qf news hawaii edu dmcgee uluhe soest hawaii edu don mcgee writes is there a free share ware package that will allow multiple desktops in windows what is desired is to have a desk top for several people that each can personalize by name and choice of programs etc amishware has one included in their package they were advertising here on the net a couple of weeks ago with a riduculously that is in a good way ted low price does anyone remember what it was charles emmons charles trintex uucp these opinions are prodigy services co charles trintex uunet uu net mine alone unless white plains ny voice you would like to prodigy id kjrd a fax share them
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re can i change licensed to data in windows in article apr trintex uucp charles tinman dev prodigy com writes have you tried re installing the software otherwise i would be dubious about simple ways to change that screen is it not designed to be an embarassment to would be pirates ahh yes this is a fun topic no once the name is incribed on the disk that is it it is encoded not even a hex editor will find it you can write over the licensed to but you can t change the name underneth it i think if you wish to change this you would have to be a pirate and we re not going to promote that here robert s dubinski aliases include robb regal sir mr and i marquette university math computer science double major internet address a dubinski vms csd mu edu milwaukee wi
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re ghostscript for win fonts servis author ecn purdue edu brian k servis writes that s me i just downloaded the windows ghostscript package gswin zip gs ini zip from ftp when i load a ps file it says it cant find font and substitutes a font called ugly it is substituting for basic fonts such as helv and cour i would imagine that these fonts are included in its font library is there something i am doing wrong or am missing these ugly fonts are not very clear and well defined as in sharpness etc basically they are ugly any advice is welcome ok i realize i have to get the font files from some ftp site i found them at cica but i now have another question are the zip fonts compatible with gswin please email brian servis servis author ecn purdue edu it happened this way actual quotes from insurance claims what i say may not be what i think what i say may not be the pedestrian had no idea which what purdue thinks way to go so i ran him over
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	diamond ss x win mouse cursor anybody seen mouse cursor distortion running the diamond x x driver sorry don t know the version of the driver no indication in the menus but it s a recently delivered gateway system am going to try the latest drivers from diamond bbs but wondered if anyone else had seen this post or email don lindbergh dabl lhc nlm nih gov
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ati ultra pro drivers does anybody know the ftp site with the latest windows drivers for the ati gup thanks
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re hercules graphite in article c jbkf b usenet ucs indiana edu ntaib silver ucs indiana edu iskandar taib writes in article apr metrics com tomh metrics com tom haapanen writes has anyone used a hercules graphite adapter it looks good on paper and steve gibson gave it a very good review in infoworld i d love to get a real world impression though how is the speed drivers support the pc world reviewers found out that the herc people had hard coded i think it was the iit people who make the chip the card is based on who hard coded the string one of the weeklies looked into this an came to the conclusion that the iit chip was still pretty fast winbench text into the driver clever no in any case the winbench results are pretty much inflated when and if you get one send me mail i might buy that ati gu off you iskandar taib the only thing worse than peach ala internet ntaib silver ucs indiana edu frog is frog ala peach bitnet ntaib iubacs guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	procomm plus for windows problems hi i have normal procomm plus for dos but i ve been considering buying the windows version it got really great reviews in computer shopper i have a friend who connects to the mainframe and unix machines here using it but the screen seems to have a problem keeping up with the modem he has a modem on a mhz machine i can t see it having trouble keeping up his pcplus for dos works great but the windows just seems to always screw up is this common and is there a fix or is something just screwed with his machine kent
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	quattro pro file format we are trying to write a program which can read files created by quattro pro and above would anyone know where to find information regarding the format in which quattro pro stores its files thanks in advance mahesh famous dummies madam tussade s wax museum still at case msk po cwru edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	gui application frameworks for windows hello i m investigating the purchase of an object oriented application framework i have come across a few that look good zapp from inmark zinc from zinc software c views from liant win from blaise some considerations i m using being new to windows programming i m from the unix x world the quality and intuitivness of the abstraction that these class libraries provide is very important however since i m not adverse to learning the internals of windows programming the new programming methodology should be closely aligned with the native one i don t believe arbitrary levels of abstraction just for the sake of changing the api are valuable since we will be developing for the bit windows nt system the memory management issues and issues particular to the windows api are less important we will probably buy another c class library something like tools h or booch components from rational to handle data structures and other miscellaneous stuff allocators etc so those features are not that important for this toolkit to have the two that i have narrowed it down to are zapp and zinc they seem to be the two toolkits that have received the most attention from the media i was wondering if anyone had any first hand experience with any of these toolkits especially zapp and zinc a couple of observations about these toolkits that seem particularly noteworthy are zapp seems to have the most extensive coverage of windows functionality and also includes some other miscellaneous useful classes has new fancy d style controls available and support for custom controls has a windows nt version essential redirectable graphics display output architecture useful for printing sizer class for automatically managing control layout after resize seems to be the newcomer this could be an advantage in designing a better system zinc has a platform independent resource strategy not too important for me right now comes with a interface builder tool has a windows nt version essential seems to have been around longer more mature but grew up out of a dos version had a better demo both have source code availability options both are lacking ole support neither seem to have any particular support for multimedia type stuff any thoughts anyone has on this would be much appreciated thanks brett harper brett harper cimlinc com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re permanaent swap file with dos dbldisk in article hydra gatech edu gt c prism gatech edu james dean barwick writes more on permenent swap files i m sure everyone who has an uncompressed part of their compressed hard disk has seen the message you have selected a swap file greater than the suggested size windows will only use the size suggested do you wan t to create this swap file anyway or something like that well a friend of mine robert called microsoft and asked them what and why what they said is that windows checks the amount of free disk space and divides that number by then it checks for the largest contiguous block of free disk space windows then suggests the smaller of the two numbers they also said that under absolutely no circumstances none will windows uses a swap file larger than the suggested size well that s what he said i call bull if this is true why does windows report the memory is available to me if it s not going to use it i think the support droid was malfunctioning and confused the disk space limit with the virtual address space limit as far as the disk is concerned you are limited only by the amount of contiguous free space the limit that causes the message windows will only use is the amount of virtual address space that the virtual memory manager will create and this is a function of the amount of free memory that you have when windows starts in the enh section of system ini you can specify a parameter pageovercommit multiplier the following description is from the windows resource kit this entry specifies the multiplier what determines the amount of linear address space the vmm will create for the system which is computed by rounding up the amount of available physical memory to the nearest mb and then multiplying that value by the value specified for pageovercommit increasing this value increases the amount of available linear address space causing the size of data structures to increase this also increases paging activity proportionately and can slow down the system you can specify a value between and the default is to change this entry you must edit system ini bob nichols at t bell laboratories rnichols ihlpm ih att com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re win nt what is it in a previous article alanchem csd csd uwm edu alan scott olson wrote two part question what is windows nt a real windows os this past weekend a local hacker radio show metioned a new product from microsoft called chicago if i recall anyone know what this is that is it thanks a heap alan windows nt is a giant windows operating system unline win it does not run on top of dos it is its own os with billy gates assures us true multi tasking multithreading meets dod security specs will run win programs as well as dos programs has multi processor support and is primarily a server program it s overhead is too high for it to be economical for most users speaking of overhead it requires at least a with megs of ram it iwll run with but that s like running os with megs and that s just to run it also i have heard that the system files take up megs and it is recommended that your drive be a half gig the skd is distributed on cd rom chicogo is what i want to use it is like nt a true os with thrue multitasking and multithreading but has much smaller hardware requirements and does not meet dod security specs but that s okay since it will probably be more of a client os there are a few otehr differences but those are the main ones there was an article about chicogo in pc week last august the chicogo and nt development groups at micro oft are in intense competition so it is said however i think a different relationship will arise nt will be the server n etowrk t echonology chicogo will be the client machine it is entirely possible for different os s to work together partly because chicogo is just a small nt think of it that way anyway novell netware creates an os on the server that is truly not dos so don t scorn the concept anyway don t expect it soon windows and dos are supposed to be released next year read see it in so i expect that chicogo won t be out til with luck i ll be proven wrong rob rmohns vax clarku edu rob mohns annoy rush limbaugh think for yourself
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re can i change licensed to data in windows this is in relation to a question concerning changing the registered to information of ms windows in a previous article a dubinski vms csd mu edu wrote ahh yes this is a fun topic no once the name is incribed on the disk that is it it is encoded not even a hex editor will find it you can write over the licensed to but you can t change the name underneth it i i can find it with a hex editor although i have not tried to overwrite it are you sure it can t be you may be mistaken about this rob rmohns vax clarku edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re fall comdex dls psuvm psu edu wrote does anyone out there have any info on the up and coming fall comdex i was asked by one of my peers to get any info that might be available or could anyone point me in the right direction any help would be appreciated it s in las vegas as always between november th and th for more information contact the interface group first avenue needham ma sorry no phone number available consult directory service in massachusetts for the number or willy ville v walveranta tel fax linda ave apt from finland oakland ca faxes automatically recognized usa email wil shell portal com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re permanaent swap file with dos dbldisk in article hydra gatech edu gt c prism gatech edu james dean barwick writes stuff deleted more on permenent swap files i m sure everyone who has an uncompressed part of their compressed hard disk has seen the message you have selected a swap file greater than the suggested size windows will only use the size suggested do you wan t to create this swap file anyway or something like that well a friend of mine robert called microsoft and asked them what and why what they said is that windows checks the amount of free disk space and divides that number by then it checks for the largest contiguous block of free disk space windows then suggests the smaller of the two numbers they also said that under absolutely no circumstances none will windows uses a swap file larger than the suggested size well that s what he said i call bull if this is true why does windows report the memory is available to me if it s not going to use it any takers james well someone at microsoft told you wrong windows will use a swap file larger than the recommended size last summer i went to a microsoft windows technical workshop and they distributed a lot of information that the general public might not be aware of anyway in the main book they handed out they have a section on creating larger than recommended swapfile i ll quote the information if you create a permanent swapfile larger than the recommended size you will receive a message telling you that windows will not use anything larger than the recommended size this error message is incorrect we will allow the use of the larger swapfile up to four times the amount of ram on your machine so as you see microsoft does know that the information is incorrect you probably just ran into some doofball who was new on the job and was only telling you what little he knew be that what it may i would really suggest to everyone to take the opportunity to go to these technical workshops they aren t actually incredibly in depth but you do get a lot of material about bugs and optimization straight from those in the know besides that they offer you huge discounts on software if i remember correctly you could pick up word excel or whatever their presentation program is for that is the full blown version not an upgrade or educational version you could also pick up microsoft office for or something like that myself i sprang for word well hope that was helpful to someone and besides that i hope someone will go to a workshop and save a little money and if anyone at microsoft is reading this i really love your products i need a job once i graduate also can we work something out thanks brent casavant bcasavan mailhost ecn uoknor edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re ati ultra pro drivers in article c jldc hl news cso uiuc edu jroberts ux cso uiuc edu robertson writes does anybody know the ftp site with the latest windows drivers for the ati gup thanks the latest driver release is and can be found at ftp cica indiana edu in the pub pc win directory structure as pro zip i checked with ati s bbs last nite and there were no releases past we have the ati local bus card and i noticed that i get garbage around the edges of a window when i move it has anybody else noticed this also tom thomas b fisk internet fisk mayo edu mayo clinic if you don t know where voice first street sw you re going you ll never fax mail stop d stm get there rochester mn
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help on bitmaps i wonder if anyone can tell me whether or not i can create a bitmap of any size i followed the bitmap creation example in sdk manual and specified a x bitmap set the width height to and supplied a byte string with chars but i just cannot get the right bitmap image i changed the width height to x and used the same value string padded with zero byets to make up to the right size and got the image the example in the manual is x size which are multiple of bytes can you define a bitmap image of any size thanks very much g chen chen citr uq oz au g chen centre for information technology research university of queensland australia chen citr uq oz au tel fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re gui application frameworks for windows i look at zapp and really liked it however i think you should wait for version i think it will be out soon mike maley maley cs umn edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re speedstar vga card win drivers these drivers updated are available directly from diamond they will even ship them to you at no charge at least they did for me
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re permanent swap file in a previous article mlipsie rdm std com mike lipsie mpu says in article c yfd ld sunfish usd edu pwiseman salmon usd edu cliff writes your swap file is purged every time you exit windows if you shut off your computer without exiting windows your swap file remains mb is on the large side are you running more applications than you really need to at the same time this is of course not true the temporary swap file is purged every time you exit windows the permanent file is permanent and can only be changed by adjusting the virtual memory i suspect that either the original poster was tinkering and adjusted the swap file to mb and then forgot about it or somebody helped him mike lipsie work mlipsie ca merl com mitsubishi electronic research laboratory home mikel dosbears uucp when i first setup windows using the self load mode it grabbed about megs of swap file space my meg hd was nearly empty at that time i deleted windows for a time and recently reloaded now my hd is nearly full and windows just took megs i have read somewhere that the best rule of thumb is have your permanent swap file the same size as your regular ram size i have megs of ram and windows took meg perm swap file works very well in fact with my available hd space about megs it won t let me make the swap file any bigger you should change your virtual mem swap file to megs i think that is what you said your ram was c ya artin this communication is sent by artin university of arizona tucson ak cleveland freenet edu mlinsenb ccit arizona edu mlinsenb arizvms death has been dead for about years follow the king of kings
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re procomm plus for windows problems in article qkqrhinnobc matt ksu ksu edu kentiler matt ksu ksu edu kent p iler writes i have a friend who connects to the mainframe and unix machines here using it but the screen seems to have a problem keeping up with the modem he has a modem on a mhz machine tell him he probably needs to upgrade to a faster video card my baud modem was one of the reasons i sought out the diamond speedstar x i get about million winmarks on my and it just about keeps up with the modem speed using procomm plus for windows too he should get over million on his machine with the same card anything should yield acceptable speed jeff meyers jmeyers ecst csuchico edu x n x w chico ca kd dis ke lw nocal ca usa na grid cn cm
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	what is regload exe perusing through my windows directory i came across a file called regload exe i assume this is part of the registration database but neither my windows manual win resource kit nor pc mag s description of files in the windows directory had a reference to it at least not one that i could find does regedit exe use it or am i way off base peter goudswaard goudswaa sfu ca preferred pgoudswa cln etc bc ca pgoudswa cue bc ca there s no gift like the present goudswaard s observation
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re page setup in notepad in apr cbnewsh cb att com krh cbnewsh cb att com writes i often use notepad to view and print read me type files i often find myself rushing to get to print manager to stop the printer and delete the file from the print queue because i ve forgotten to reset the print margins from inches left and right to inches the resulting printed text looks all chopped up because of the hard returns in the source file i struggled with the margin problem for ages as well until i finally got hold of the shareware binary editor beav and dug into notepad exe there is no setup facility to force notepad to default to margins it s hardwired into code do a search for then change the offending bytes to et viola who are the guys who hardcode these options anyway i m interested in whether the problem only rears it s ugly head for certain printers i m using an old epson lx or is that ex never can remember aloha
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	panasonic kx p i driver does anyone out there know if there are print drivers for windows for the panasonic kx p i pin dot matrix printer
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re can i change licensed to data in windows write over the licensed to but you can t change the name underneth it i think if you wish to change this you would have to be a pirate and we re not going to promote that here not so my computer was supplied with my name in an interesting mix of upper and lower case and my workplace mis typed i m getting fed up with being cmyearsley at keel unversity it took me phone calls to the supplier to get the computer working at all i really can t face tackling them again chris
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re help with winqvt i had a similar problem try changing the netmask to or tommy
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re is anyone using video for windows my suggestion would be to contact microsoft about the video windows sdk you would need to call developer services at extension from am to pm pacific time
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	driver for panasonic kx p greetings i am looking pro a win printer driver for the panasonic laser printer kx p i am not sure about the order of the first letters in the name but the numbers are right and they are important i have found drivers for panasonic printers and so on but i think there should be drivers available where the model is included grateful for any help kjell hut fi kjell niksula hut fi kjell vipunen hut fi
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re re win nt what is it in article apr vax clarku edu rmohns vax clarku edu says in a previous article alanchem csd csd uwm edu alan scott olson wrote two part question what is windows nt a real windows os this past weekend a local hacker radio show metioned a new product from microsoft called chicago if i recall anyone know what this is that is it thanks a heap alan windows nt is a giant windows operating system unline win it does not run on top of dos it is its own os with billy gates assures us true multi tasking multithreading meets dod security specs will run win programs as well as dos programs has multi processor support and is primarily a server program it s overhead is too high for it to be economical for most users it also runs os character based apps and posix apps the dos bit and bit windows apps run in a windows bit subsystem if you consider the fact that nt has the lanman redirectors built in support for tcp ip built in support for netbeui comes with tcp utils like ping and an ftp client etc applications like schedule and a bit version of msmail the storage argument isnt an issue speaking of overhead it requires at least a with megs of ram it iwll run with but that s like running os with megs and that s just to run it also i have heard that the system files take up megs and it is recommended that your drive be a half gig the skd is distributed on cd rom i ran it on a with mram and it did a ton of disk swapping with a m virtual memory paging file it functioned but it crawled this was the oct build i upgraded the machine to m and the performance is good at that point i installed the march build consider they are probably still working on the feature set and havent done a lot of fine tuning to the code yet chicogo is what i want to use it is like nt a true os with thrue multitasking and multithreading but has much smaller hardware requirements and does not meet dod security specs but that s okay since it will probably be more of a client os there are a few otehr differences but those are the main ones there was an article about chicogo in pc week last august the chicogo and nt development groups at micro oft are in intense competition so it is said however i think a different relationship will arise nt will be the server n etowrk t echonology chicogo will be the client machine it is entirely possible for different os s to work together partly because chicogo is just a small nt think of it that way anyway novell netware creates an os on the server that is truly not dos so don t scorn the concept anyway don t expect it soon windows and dos are supposed to be released next year read see it in so i expect that chicogo won t be out til i have little info on chicago so i cant make a comparison is it in beta is there anyone out there who has tested both and cares to make a comparison just my aln
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re re win nt what is it i have little info on chicago so i cant make a comparison is it in beta is there anyone out there who has tested both and cares to make a comparison just my aln chicago from what i have read is projected to run in m on and higher it is definitely aimed at the desktop it is rumored to offer preemptive multitasking multithreading but will not offer multiprocessing is bit and no reliance on dos it is rumored to have an integrated file and program manager dos is rumored to be similar to chicago but without the gui is also a step towards cairo the next generation os which is rumored to be object oriented i wonder where windows fits here is it a stepping stone to chicago hope this helps thx dave l
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re win nt what is it rmohns vax clarku edu writes chicogo is what i want to use it is like nt a true os with thrue multitasking and multithreading but has much smaller hardware requirements and does not meet dod security specs but that s okay since it will probably be more of a client os there are a few otehr differences but those are the main ones there was an article about chicogo in pc week last august the chicogo and nt development groups at micro oft are in intense competition so it is said however i think a different relationship will arise nt will be the server n etowrk t echonology chicogo will be the client machine it is entirely possible for different os s to work together partly because chicogo is just a small nt think of it that way anyway novell netware creates an os on the server that is truly not dos so don t scorn the concept anyway don t expect it soon windows and dos are supposed to be released next year read see it in so i expect that chicogo won t be out til how does chicago differ from the sort of announced windows my understand ing at least from the inbfoworld accound of windows is that it s sort of nt lite a full fledged operating system but lacking server and security features that make nt such a bear is w not true multithreading
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re procomm plus for windows problems kentiler matt ksu ksu edu kent p iler writes hi i have normal procomm plus for dos but i ve been considering buying the windows version it got really great reviews in computer shopper i have a friend who connects to the mainframe and unix machines here using it but the screen seems to have a problem keeping up with the modem he has a modem on a mhz machine i can t see it having trouble keeping up his pcplus for dos works great but the windows just seems to always screw up is this common and is there a fix or is something just screwed with his machine kent i have no trouble running procomm for windows at v on a considerably slower sx could be a video problem but only if he has incredibly slow video
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re word help from article b b a a vms csd mu edu by a dubinski vms csd mu edu can anyone tell me if and how they have printed spanish characters i know wp has this built in but i do not recall ever seeing this option on wfw help try using the extended character set alt sequences look in character map in the accessories group and see the alt sequence for the font you want gregory r cook internet gcook horus cem msu edu department of chemistry cookgreg student msu edu michigan state university cook cemvax cem msu edu east lansing mi bitnet cook msucem bitnet
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re need windows logo in article qjqed ft access digex net holland access digex com brian holland writes markus maier s maier m rzmain rz uni ulm de wrote hi well i m searching for the ms windows logo u know the picture when u start windows in some suitable grafics format like gif or jpg c windows system vgalogo rle if my memory serves me correctly rle is a compressed bmp format an is readable by wingif paintshop pro paint and god knows how many other programs mike mattix agricultural group of monsanto p o box luling la internet address dmmatt bigez monsanto com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wanted symantec address nothing beats skiing if you want to have real fun during holidays rob de winter philips research ist it building wl p o box ja eindhoven the netherlands tel e mail dewinter prl philips nl
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wanted address symantec i am looking for the exact address of the symantec coporatoin which distributes norton desktop and other windows software the information i am looking for is mail address phone number fax number e mail address thanks in advance nothing beats skiing if you want to have real fun during holidays rob de winter philips research ist it building wl p o box ja eindhoven the netherlands tel e mail dewinter prl philips nl
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re can i change licensed to data in windows in article apr vax clarku edu rmohns vax clarku edu writes this is in relation to a question concerning changing the registered to information of ms windows in a previous article a dubinski vms csd mu edu wrote ahh yes this is a fun topic no once the name is incribed on the disk that is it it is encoded not even a hex editor will find it you can write over the licensed to but you can t change the name underneth it i i can find it with a hex editor although i have not tried to overwrite it are you sure it can t be you may be mistaken about this you can change it as part of a continuously downsizing government organization my code branch changes about once a year i just finished changing the registration information using norton utilities i sent the original requester the hex offset into user exe containing the information and his reply indicated he got several similar answers and it s not encoded in any way as for the legality there s nothing that keeps me from changing the information it certainly doesn t reach out and alter the serial number printed on the inside of my manual jim moore panama city fl
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re gui application frameworks for windows in article apr cimlinc uucp bharper cimlinc uucp brett harper writes hello i m investigating the purchase of an object oriented application framework i have come across a few that look good zinc has a platform independent resource strategy not too important for me right now brett harper cimlinc com just a thought on resources it is very important if you do use a multiplatform toolkit to check on how it uses resources i have used glockenspeil commonview under motif and os i wrote a resource converter from os to motif but it really wasn t too easy especially the naming scheme in motif you cannot rename controls widgets with windows you can call the ok button id ok in every instance this doesn t work for motif you d have to call it dialog ok and motif expects a text string rather than a number so your constructor should know how to convert a define into the proper resource identifier i d check on how the toolkit expects names and that if it does use resources that is uses resources for all platforms you intend to port to by the way i would never use commonview or glockenspiel for anything alex alex colburn image analysis facility university of iowa colburn tessa iaf uiowa edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re hercules graphite in article c jbkf b usenet ucs indiana edu ntaib silver ucs indiana edu iskandar taib writes in article apr metrics com tomh metrics com tom haapanen writes has anyone used a hercules graphite adapter it looks good on paper and steve gibson gave it a very good review in infoworld i d love to get a real world impression though how is the speed drivers support the pc world reviewers found out that the herc people had hard coded winbench text into the driver clever no in any case the winbench results are pretty much inflated but the impressive performance of the graphite was not its winmark it was its wintach result esp the paint performance judging from the wintach tests i can hardly imagine that there is a cheat driver for it agus budy wuysang digitech student monash university clayton melbourne australia
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re diamond ss x win mouse cursor in article apr nlm nih gov dabl nlm nih gov don a b lindbergh writes anybody seen mouse cursor distortion running the diamond x x driver sorry don t know the version of the driver no indication in the menus but it s a recently delivered gateway system am going to try the latest drivers from diamond bbs but wondered if anyone else had seen this as a followup this is a co worker s machine he has the latest drivers it only happens using the x x driver sometimes it takes a minute or so for the cursor to wig out but it eventually does in this mode i susect something is stepping on memory the video card wants i excluded a c ff in the emm line and in system ini the problem persisted perhaps it is something specific to the gateway machine or it s components it is a mhz dx eisa bus with an ultrastore xx controller ah well i was hoping this was some kind of known problem or somebody had seen it before perhaps a call to gateway is in order but i do find folks here usually are far more in the know don lindbergh dabl lhc nlm nih gov
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re win nt what is it in article qmc e g b access digex net wild access digex com wildstrom writes from wild access digex com wildstrom subject re win nt what is it date apr much stuff deleted what is win i upgraded to mathcad and it installed a directory for win under windows system during the upgrade it told me that win was required
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re procomm plus for windows problems you have a lot more problems keeping up with hardware interrupts in windows than in dos regardless of what communication software you are using try the following turn off disk write cache for the disk you are downloading to the cache will save up so much that when it grabs control of the machine it takes too long to write to disk and you loose characters use a different uart for your serial line the old uart s or can only buffer one character internally the new uart s can buffer which should be plenty for most situations you can run windows msd exe to find out what uart is on the machine ron
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re win nt what is it rmohns vax clarku edu writes windows nt is a giant windows operating system unline win it does not run on top of dos it is its own os with billy gates assures us true multi tasking multithreading meets dod security specs will run win programs as well as dos programs has multi processor support and is primarily a server program it s overhead is too high for it to be economical for most users correction all billy is promising is that it will run most windows programs and the major dos programs do not expect everything you have to run under nt unless all you have are current ms apps
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how do i make ghostscript work what files do i need to download for ghostscript i have never used ghostscript before so i don t have any files for it what i do have is gs win zip which i downloaded from cica unfortunately it doesn t seem to work on it s own but needs some more files that i don t have i want to run ghostscript both in windows and in ms dos on a pc i understand there s versions for both environments what are all the files i need to download and where can i get them any info would be appeciated steve w brewer rewerb w evets cl ulkyvx louisville edu ude ellivsiuol xvyklu lc
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows keeps crashing please help as the subjects says windows keeps crashing givinh me gpf on me of late it was never a very stable package but now it seems to crash every day the worst part about it is that it does not crash consistently ie i can t reproduce crashes and they are not always gpf s in the same application sometimes i can recover by simply closing the application that caused an error but other times windows acts very strange and i need to re boot some background i have a leading edge sx with phoenix bios when i first got it it had mg of memory it ran windows fine not too many gpf s then a couple of weekends ago i installed lotus for windows with atm a game card and an additional mg simms the leading edge machine is kind of strange in that it has the ide controler built into the motherboard the cpu is actually on a sparate board that plugs into the motherboard and the simms it uses are macintosh simms apparently i was told that the leading edge had the parity bit built into the mother board the original mg ns simms where of the chip variety from samsung and the ones i installed are chip simms they are recognized fine by the bios ram check the game card is a generic gamecard the reason why i mention the hardware like this is that sometimes rebooting the machine using the reset button or ctl alt del still leaves the machine kind of flaky but turning it on and off doesn t i haven t tried taking out the ram or the game card because as i said these gpf are not reproducible at will i have gone through and entire day using the computer with no problems and then i might get or so gpf s in the sppace of minutes what can i do this situation is most annoying are there any good diagnostic tools for hardware do you think that this might be a software problem ie emm etc if it helps i have manage to get gpf s on after dark quicken paint shop pro a lot of them have been in user exe or gdi exe any help is truly appreciated eric ebosco us oracle com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re permanaent swap file with dos dbldisk stuff deleted be that what it may i would really suggest to everyone to take the opportunity to go to these technical workshops they aren t actually incredibly in depth but you do get a lot of material about bugs and optimization straight from those in the know besides that they offer you huge discounts on software if i remember correctly you could pick up word excel or whatever their presentation program is for that is the full blown version not an upgrade or educational version you could also pick up microsoft office for or something like that myself i sprang for word the value of these workshops aside you ought to be able to buy full copies of all this software through your campus bookstore or software distributor at these rates i m not aware that the educational version of word or excel is doped down in any way well hope that was helpful to someone and besides that i hope someone will go to a workshop and save a little money and if anyone at microsoft is reading this i really love your products i need a job once i graduate also can we work something out thanks brent casavant bcasavan mailhost ecn uoknor edu david farley the university of chicago library east th street jrl dgf midway uchicago edu chicago illinois
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re permanent swap file in article qlja i b usenet ins cwru edu ak cleveland freenet edu martin linsenbigler writes when i first setup windows using the self load mode it grabbed about megs of swap file space my meg hd was nearly empty at that time i deleted windows for a time and recently reloaded now my hd is nearly full and windows just took megs one of the rules for a permanent swap file is that it must be contiguous non fragmented space i suspect that is more responsible for the difference than the amount of free disk in your case i have read somewhere that the best rule of thumb is have your permanent swap file the same size as your regular ram size i have megs of ram and windows took meg perm swap file works very well in fact with my available hd space about megs it won t let me make the swap file any bigger you should change your virtual mem swap file to megs i think that is what you said your ram was it depends on what you are running we had to increase our swap file i think it is now mb when some applications couldn t run without everything else closed mike lipsie work mlipsie ca merl com mitsubishi electronic research laboratory home mikel dosbears uucp
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re wanted address symantec dewinter prl philips nl rob de winter writes i am looking for the exact address of the symantec coporatoin which distributes norton desktop and other windows software the information i am looking for is mail address phone number fax number e mail address try postmaster norton com or postmaster symantec com thanks in advance nothing beats skiing if you want to have real fun during holidays rob de winter philips research ist it building wl p o box ja eindhoven the netherlands tel e mail dewinter prl philips nl ken lam network administrator university of charleston dept of biology geology s c space grant consortium fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	cirrus logic graph card after setting up windows for using my cirrus logic vlb graphicscard it moved a normal window from one place to another my parameters where just the following dx vlb the card is equipped with mb dram not vram there are sockets for vram and the moving of the window just looked like it looked at a friends dx dx and an normal isa et what i was wondering why is it not using the bitblt engine which is suuposed to be on the chip how are the experiences here have i done something wrong i installed the mswin multiresolution drivers which where supplied with the card would be nice if somebody could tell about his experience with this card also if there are new hopefully faster drrivers around i would love to how to get hold of them ftp or whatsoever gruss wolfgang
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re procomm plus for windows problems kentiler matt ksu ksu edu kent p iler writes i have normal procomm plus for dos but i ve been considering buying the windows version it got really great reviews in computer shopper i have a friend who connects to the mainframe and unix machines here using it but the screen seems to have a problem keeping up with the modem he has a modem on a mhz machine i can t see it having trouble keeping up his pcplus for dos works great re what to do after the high speed modem arrives edition apr this article applies only to windows and and not to nt os or dos apps not running under windows one of the unadvertised limitations of most current windows pcs is that their rs c serial com performance is seriously deficient almost everyone who purchases a high speed modem v bis v pep or hst discovers the problem the first time they try to download a file or accept an incoming fax at after upgrading the modem overrun and retry errors abound even when the only active application is the datacomm or fax program if the transfer completes at all it may take even longer than with the old bps modem there are three reasons for the problem the universal asynchronous receiver transmitters uarts used in most pcs are primitive ns devices with single byte fifo buffers if the operating system driver cannot read and flush each character at high interrupt rates the next incoming character overwrites the fifo and the previous one is lost dos being a fairly single minded environment during datacomm can usually keep up windows can t windows has more operating system overhead than plain dos and interrupts often take longer to service overruns are much more likely than under dos as soon as you report to your pc modem vendor that you are losing data you may be advised that you need to upgrade to a more likely since there seems to be a conspiracy of ignorance about this issue you ll get no useful advice at all most of the store front and mail order sources i spoke with in attempting to solve my own problem had never heard the term and many didn t even know what a uart was even your pc has ns a uarts and ps s do or if you can upgrade your mother com board or add a new com board you may still experience errors and overruns because the standard microsoft windows com drivers don t take full advantage of the windows is improved in this regard over but i still recommend a driver upgrade applications like procomm win which is what i use cannot get around this problem by themselves if you have a modem card you may not have a problem as the modem part of the card can be designed to be aware of the state of the uart and avoid overrunning it however i wouldn t want to bet that the card designers were that clever and will insist on a uart if i ever buy a modem card some modem cards don t even have conventional uarts but if they are to work with standard windows drivers they need to simulate one use msd exe below to see what the modem card is or is pretending to be the hardware situation the uarts on most pc com ports are based on national semiconductor ns or ns chips or megacells inside vlsi chips where you can t replace them you can id the uart type on your system by running the microsoft diagnostic program windows msd exe be sure to run it in dos before bringing up windows the windows serial api may prevent msd from accurately identifying a if you run it from a windows dos prompt the ns uart has separate byte transmit and receive fifos with configurable trigger levels and can run reliably at clock rates up to bps although with current modem technology there s no point in pushing your luck by going over bps the has shorted access cycle times than the or the also has dma capability but it is not clear that any pc drivers ever use this for more technical info see national semiconductor application note an so what uart component do you have try to locate the uart on your mother board multi function i o card com board or isa mca modem card if you can t find a socketed component with the numbers or your com ports are probably buried in vlsi and you won t be able to perform a chip replacement if you can disable your vlsi com ports as i chose to do you can at least add an aftermarket com board if you have one or more socketed or chips you can buy plug in ns afn or pc c cn low power cmos version ics from several suppliers typically for to each the n chip is the normal pin dual in line package other styles are available but avoid any ns chips without the a the c c are presumably all ok early ns chips have bugs although national will reportedly exchange those of their own manufacture for free clone chips are available from various ic makers other than national the manual for the turbocom drivers states support for the following apparently equivalent chips national semiconductor a chips technology c texas instruments t c a silicon systems m vlsi c turbocom warns about the pre a ns and western digital c says that problems have been reported with early ibm ps sx and systems ibm reportedly will upgrade them if you don t have socketed chips you ll need to buy an after market com or multi function board if this is a modem card situation you may be hosed to add a new com or multi function card you ll need to either disable the com port s you are replacing or re assign them to com although watch out for irq conflicts without turbocom although cheaper cards are available in the interest of getting the problem solved quickly i elected buy the modular circuit technology mct aio card from jdr microdevices samaritan drive san jose ca voice us voice other fax us the mct aio and the is important sells for it is an bit isa card providing port type connector address and irq comments com db m com irq ns afn in socket com ribbon com irq ns afn in socket parallel db f lpt irq game ribbon the kit includes a ribbon cable and db f connector for the secondary com port a ribbon cable connector for the game port two bulkhead plates for the ribbon based connectors and a f to f adaptor cable each port can be individually disabled and the com ports have tx rx rts cts dtr dcd and dsr jumpers jdr also sells a super i o m f card that also has ide i have heard from several people about less expensive m f i o cards with s tsd systems for the card plus per greenfield trading and distributors voice fax their card is w one w and they sell afns for r s data systems inc east highway longwood fl phone fax com lpt game card w s for i have no personal experience with any of the firms except jdr meanwhile back at the mct card from jdr i only needed two serial ports and am running out of irqs on my pc so i disabled my built in vlsi based ports however with the turbocom driver below i could have set the internals as com and using irq sharing the software situation simply upgrading to uarts will not completely solve common overrun problems the standard ms serial drivers don t take full advantage of the the windows drivers are even less capable and the windows drivers have the following limitations they enable only the receive fifo and only at rates above bps they never enable the transmit fifo which results in an interrupt rate of x during uploads they set the trigger level at bytes too high it s easy for more bytes to arrive before the driver can read the fifo the ports menu of the control panel only allows speeds up to with a v bis modem sparse data and text can easily compress or more suggesting that a host dte connect rate of bps would be effective the api won t accept rates above cbr the api won t let dos programs know there is a there and even if it did dos programs that aren t aware get little benefit from a port with the standard drivers they don t allow irq sharing for com the bios doesn t initialize com properly in many systems windows provides no workaround for apps that don t provide port speed options above bps these problems are reportedly not solved in windows nt or dos and may or may not be addressed in any windows releases after but before rumors suggest they may be solved in windows you can get replacement drivers that solve all of those problems by buying a copy of turbocom current version from bio engineering research pacific commware division beacon hill lane ashland or voice fax bbs mcimail compuserve price was around as i recall bio eng is not set up to accept credit cards so i had to send a check egghead and software list turbocom but as far as i know they don t stock it bio is not a software company per se they apparently needed reliable hi speed serial connections for an in house instrument application wrote their own driver discovered a market for it revised it to be a general purpose com driver suite they recently upgraded it for windows it is run time licensed i now have my host dte connect rate set to bps most of my datacomm apps and i am having zero problems with downloads i routinely see transfer rates that exceed bps i am also using bps when linking an hp lx to my pc with lossless bi directional i o uploads to various remote systems are another matter because many hosts are still using antique uarts and drivers note that is still the highest rate that the windows port menu in control panel will allow in configuring a com port turbocom gets around this by allowing you to specify on each port a factor that will set the real uart rate to a multiple of the rate passed through the windows apis and dialog boxes i also have cts rts hardware flow control enabled and i suggest that you do the same even if you only ever transfer bit ascii data xon xoff is not a sufficiently reliable method of flow control the informal dec standard for xon xoff hysteresis is that the sender may transmit another yes sixteen bytes after receipt of the xoff from the receiving system or device the byte fifo in the is clearly not big enough to let us rely exclusively on xon xoff a well respected datacomm engineer has informed me that the s can t really do cts rts all by itself in the dos windows environment so using data rates above may still be risky even with hardware flow control a with turbocom can still experience overruns in very busy systems with lots of apps running and serious swapping in progress if this is your situation you may need to buy a co processed com board but this will cost you more than a turbocom upgrade a review of two such boards and a review of turbocom can be found in the feb issue of windows sources magazine i suggest trying a turbocom upgrade first and experiment with process priorities and time slices if you are a power user whose thrashing system still runs into comm problems closing soapbox comments the state of rs c serial datacomm support is an embarrassment across the computer industry because it is the oldest standard i o interface the job of designing hardware and writing software often seems to be assigned to the least senior or lowest ranked engineers at computer companies the design of the average serial port is at least ten years behind the state of the art in my last job with a major workstation vendor i lobbied for improved serial ports when they were doing the initial designs of a new system that family of machines was subsequently introduced with ports however this is the exception few computer companies seem to have any champions for decent i o you may as well learn what you can about serial i o because this situation shows no sign of improving soon when v fast arrives i expect cries of outrage from windows users world wide whose pcs sort of work today with v but will fail miserably with v fast without a hardware buffered uart like the and without software drivers that use that uart to best advantage a v fast modem will be a waste of money regards a east harmony road bob niland suite internet rjn csn org fort collins co compuserve copyright robert j niland all rights reserved permission is granted for automatic redistribution of this article via electronic magnetic and optical media in an unedited form through any usenet newsgroup where the article is posted by the author permission is granted for each compuserve and usenet reader subscriber and each person who received this article from compuserve an ftp site authorized by the author or via electronic mail from the author to retain one electronic copy and to make hardcopy reproductions of this edition of this article for personal non commercial use provided that no material changes are made to the article or this copyright statement all other copying storage reproduction or redistribution of this article in any form is prohibited without the express written consent of the author robert j niland eof
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	any updated canon bj driver hi can anyone tell me where i can get a copy of updated canon bj printer driver for windows if any i have ver which comes with my bj printer i just wonder if there is any newer version thanks very much please email
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows for workgroups and lan workplace this may be a simple question but we have a number of pc s which we use to link to a mainframe using novell lan workplace for dos via windows now to make life easier for us we are thinking of using windows for workgroups to allow file sharing across our pc network now does anyone know if it is possible to use w wg and lan workplace for dos at the same time ie can i access a file on another pc while being logged on to the mainframe at the same time simultaneously any help well appreciated gary hunt centre for advanced studies in architecture university of bath absgh gdr bath ac uk
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re word help in article qmf l euh msuinfo cl msu edu gcook horus cem msu edu greg cook writes from article b b a a vms csd mu edu by a dubinski vms csd mu edu can anyone tell me if and how they have printed spanish characters i know wp has this built in but i do not recall ever seeing this option on wfw help try using the extended character set alt sequences look in character map in the accessories group and see the alt sequence for the font you want thanks i think i ve figured it out now robert s dubinski aliases include robb regal sir mr and i marquette university math computer science double major internet address a dubinski vms csd mu edu milwaukee wi
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re can i change licensed to data in windows ok then where is the info for the licensing kept which file in the organization box i put my address and when i moved i wanted to change it but couldn t find it i could find my name but not the organization robert s dubinski aliases include robb regal sir mr and i marquette university math computer science double major internet address a dubinski vms csd mu edu milwaukee wi
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re page setup in notepad in a previous article joel jach hawaii edu joel aycock wrote i struggled with the margin problem for ages as well until i finally got hold of the shareware binary editor beav and dug into notepad exe there is no setup facility to force notepad to default to margins it s hardwired into code do a search for then change the offending bytes to et viola who are the guys who hardcode these options anyway i m interested in whether the problem only rears it s ugly head for certain printers i m using an old epson lx or is that ex never can remember aloha you are nto alone i get the same problems with my panasonic kpx i pin oterhwise it s a great printer i just can t find a driver for it only for the non i version anyone seen it rob rmohns vax clarku edu rob mohns annoy rush limbaugh think for yourself
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re need windows logo in a previous article dmmatt cajun wrote in article qjqed ft access digex net holland access digex com brian holland writes markus maier s maier m rzmain rz uni ulm de wrote hi well i m searching for the ms windows logo u know the picture when u start windows in some suitable grafics format like gif or jpg c windows system vgalogo rle if my memory serves me correctly rle is a compressed bmp format an is readable by wingif paintshop pro paint and god knows how many other programs that isn t enough to change your windows startup logo vgalogo rle is not needed after you have installed windows it is incorporated as a part of win com to make a new win com you have to concatinate three files together using the b option for a binary concatonation i beleive it is copy b win cnf vgalogo lgo vgalogo rle mywin com make sure you backup your win com file in anotehr directory before you do this i absent mindedly typed win com instead of mywin com and had to resinstall windows anyway substitute whatever rle file you want the win cnf has the info needed to start windows think of it as a bootstrap and vgalogo vga has video information just make sure that the rle file doesn t tip the whole com file size over the k limit of a com file so anyway i use mywin com to startup ms windows now instead of that annoying micro oft advertisment i have the joker yes from batman taking yoru picture from the screen saying smile also a little bit of text micro oft windows the world s first commercially sucessful virus i added that because of the frequency of crashes grin rob a post by rob mohns rmohns i had no water so vax clarku edu i drowned in sand
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	any updated canon bj driver hi can anyone tell me where i can get a copy of updated canon bj printer driver for windows if any i have ver which comes with my bj printer i just wonder if there is any newer version thanks very much please email
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re any good sound formats conversion program out there in article edd h mings cc monash edu au edd h mings cc monash edu au ywi li writes hi all does anyone know if there is a good sound formats conversion program out there like paintshoppro for picture formats conversion please send me a copy of your reply thanks a lot bel hi the best sound conversion program i ve ever seen is soundtool which is shareware from germany i found a copy somewhere in wuarchive wustl edu a long time ago but i don t know offhand what directory it was under it s great at converting files of all types including mac next sun and various pc formats it s also a great player and editor with various special effects that put windows sound recorder to shame it requires a driver for various sound cards the only builtin one is for the pc speaker and even that sounds pretty good but if you re just using it to convert things you can convert them in soundtool and then play them in sound recorder give it a try bret why that s the second mogul soda berkeley edu biggest monkey head i ve mogul ocf berkeley edu ever seen guybrush mogul uclink berkeley edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re can i change licensed to data in windows rmohns vax clarku edu writes this is in relation to a question concerning changing the registered to information of ms windows in a previous article a dubinski vms csd mu edu wrote ahh yes this is a fun topic no once the name is incribed on the disk that is it it is encoded not even a hex editor will find it you can write over the licensed to but you can t change the name underneth it i i can find it with a hex editor although i have not tried to overwrite it are you sure it can t be you may be mistaken about this rob rmohns vax clarku edu on a similar note has anyone found out a way to do this with ms foxpro for windows my setup ini file was modified on disk all encrypted well of course i forgot about microsoft s stupid arrangement when i got the software and used my name it was paid for by the company i m doing consulting for when my job is done it s their software any ideas before i start doing dumb things to a copy of that file mattias ps no i don t want to pirate this software i just want to avoid having to buy a new copy in order to change the registration information and then having a copy lying around i don t use maybe i can get a new disk mattias hembruch my views do not necessarily reflect those of the tse e mail mhembruc tse com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re procomm plus for windows problems jeff meyers jmeyers ecst csuchico edu wrote in article qkqrhinnobc matt ksu ksu edu kentiler matt ksu ksu edu kent p iler writes i have a friend who connects to the mainframe and unix machines here using procomm plus for windows but the screen seems to have a problem keeping up with the modem he has a modem on a mhz machine tell him he probably needs to upgrade to a faster video card my baud modem was one of the reasons i sought out the diamond speedstar x i get about million winmarks on my and it just about keeps up with the modem speed using procomm plus for windows too he should get over million on his machine with the same card anything should yield acceptable speed i m using pc plus at home on my trusty old nec sx with a baud modem with no problems at all i am however running only straight color vga christopher menzel internet cmenzel tamu edu philosophy texas a m university phone college station tx fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	gatewaying microsoft mail workgroups via modem our student association runs a small novell network which has a subnetwork of windows for workgroups and microsoft mail the director of finance en electrical engineering student would like to gateway this system either via slip or not into the university s network and thus the internet at the very least to exchange e mail but possibly also to do ftp s etc for now this would be done via a bps modem he would like to set it up so that it would periodically call in to check mail but would otherwise connect whenever needed what is the best way to do this gatewaying software is available but what works best please reply to me dkmiller unixg ubc ca or the d of f dleung ee ubc ca with a cc to the other i don t read all of these groups regularly so mail is best if this is a common question please pot me to a faq or ftp site derek k miller dkmiller unixg ubc ca researcher alma mater society thegrodd tz ucs sfu ca university of british columbia canada room b sub blvd vancouver b c v t z campus mail zone phone fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re win nt what is it somewhere in this thread it has been said that windows nt tm is a multi user os as well as multi threading etc i certainly haven t seen this to be the case there are seperate accounts for each person and even seperate directories if that is desired i don t see an implentation of simultaneuos use though scott scott reimert reimert mamacass etdesg trw com standard disclaimer redondo beach ca blah blah blah always store beer in a cool dark place
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows keeps crashing please help in article apr oracle us oracle com ebosco us oracle com eric bosco writes from ebosco us oracle com eric bosco subject windows keeps crashing please help date fri apr gmt as the subjects says windows keeps crashing givinh me gpf on me of late it was never a very stable package but now it seems to crash every day the worst part about it is that it does not crash consistently ie i have you tried setting files in your config sys file to a fairly high number i ve got mine set to i ve seen numbers from to recommended also check your stacks statement stacks is a good starting point try increasing it if it s already set there such as to stacks etc both stacks and files have been identified as one cause of frequent win crashes lamont downs downs nevada edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re diamond ss x win mouse cursor in article apr nlm nih gov dabl nlm nih gov don a b lindbergh writes in article apr nlm nih gov dabl nlm nih gov don a b lindbergh writes anybody seen mouse cursor distortion running the diamond x x driver sorry don t know the version of the driver no indication in the menus but it s a recently delivered gateway system am going to try the latest drivers from diamond bbs but wondered if anyone else had seen this as a followup this is a co worker s machine he has the latest drivers it only happens using the x x driver sometimes it takes a minute or so for the cursor to wig out but it eventually does in this mode i susect something is stepping on memory the video card wants i excluded a c ff in the emm line and in system ini the problem persisted perhaps it is something specific to the gateway machine or it s components it is a mhz dx eisa bus with an ultrastore xx controller ah well i was hoping this was some kind of known problem or somebody had seen it before perhaps a call to gateway is in order but i do find folks here usually are far more in the know don lindbergh dabl lhc nlm nih gov i haven t seen this particular problem but another place you might check is if your bios is doing video shadowing diamond wants that turned off that might cause a memory conflict as well good luck hope this helps chris loschen brandeis u
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re win nt what is it wild access digex com wildstrom writes rmohns vax clarku edu writes chicogo is what i want to use it is like nt a true os with thrue multitasking and multithreading but has much smaller hardware requirements and does not meet dod security specs but that s okay since it will probably be more of a client os there are a few otehr differences but those are the main ones there was an article about chicogo in pc week last august the chicogo and nt development groups at micro oft are in intense competition so it is said however i think a different relationship will arise nt will be the server n etowrk t echonology chicogo will be the client machine it is entirely possible for different os s to work together partly because chicogo is just a small nt think of it that way anyway novell netware creates an os on the server that is truly not dos so don t scorn the concept anyway don t expect it soon windows and dos are supposed to be released next year read see it in so i expect that chicogo won t be out til how does chicago differ from the sort of announced windows my understand ing at least from the inbfoworld accound of windows is that it s sort of nt lite a full fledged operating system but lacking server and security features that make nt such a bear is w not true multithreading can anyone tell me how chicago windows would differ from os x believe it or not i m not trying to start a flame war here i m simply curious if there is going to be any feature advantage in either of these products i do not consider the fact that it has uncle bills seal of approval much of a feature
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	gif to bmp does anybody have any idea where i could find a program that can convert a gif image into a bmp image suitable for a windows wallpaper i e colors hopefully there s something out there i can get from an ftp site somewhere thanks in advance scott
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re diamond ss x win mouse cursor in article apr nlm nih gov dabl nlm nih gov don a b lindbergh writes anybody seen mouse cursor distortion running the diamond x x driver sorry don t know the version of the driver no indication in the menus but it s a recently delivered gateway system am going to try the latest drivers from diamond bbs but wondered if anyone else had seen this as a followup this is a co worker s machine he has the latest drivers it only happens using the x x driver sometimes it takes a minute or so for the cursor to wig out but it eventually does in this mode i susect something is stepping on memory the video card wants i excluded a c ff in the emm line and in system ini the problem persisted perhaps it is something specific to the gateway machine or it s components it is a mhz dx eisa bus with an ultrastore xx controller ah well i was hoping this was some kind of known problem or somebody had seen it before perhaps a call to gateway is in order but i do find folks here usually are far more in the know i use the diamond speedstar x in x x mode all of the time i have not found distortions in the cursor the cursor is a little jumpy from time to time due to bit access to the swap file but it is never distorted greg bishop bishop baeyer chem fsu edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows for workgroups and lan workplace now does anyone know if it is possible to use w wg and lan workplace for dos at the same time ie can i access a file on another pc while being logged on to the mainframe at the same time simultaneously yup we re using both and they work just fine hopefully someday wfwg will communicate over lwp tcpip right now we have to load netbeui i use odi with odinsup and all works well
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dataproducts lzr not printing correctly just an apology in advance for posting a binary to this newsgroup i ve had several attempts to mail it to the original poster but it s not getting through intact clive mitchell ph regional network systems mitchell telecomwa oz au perth western australia v
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re atm now hplj pricing while there are too many ps clones to count some of which are quite poor trying to clone something that goes through regular modifications does require some patience three questions come to mid real quick for something like this q which version of adobe ps will we clone aside from the level and level issues adobe has in the past released new code that incorporates modifications upgrades fixes just as all other software vendors do the level stuff may seem sound now but i assure you changes will become more frequent as their customer list begins to dwindle in the face of competition this allows them to shift people to maintenance as well as design efforts for level q do we duplicate the bugs or do we make it work correctly from the laserwriter to the laserjet there have been bugs if i had a number to call at hp or adobe they ld have heard from me deciding which approach to take depends on which printer you want to emulate q do we follow the red book or do we follow someone s implementation without a doubt there are differences between the red book and adobe s ps with level many issues have been refined but the red book does leave big big holes in the implementation specific stuff it would be nice it the red bood at least pined things down enough so that two different implementations of adobe s ps don t do the exact opposite given an identical set of conditions q pscript drv having done a lot of ps clone testing myself the unfortunate side of testing is the limited number of sources for test files the primary source we use is genoa and having characterizes their ps ats files of them over half are taken from pscript drv it may not ideal but the ats files are what the printer vendors use i m sure that adobe uses them too but adobe s output is by definition correct even if its wrong yes there are some very poor clones we ve seen them here at rastek a sub of genicom which has its own clone called geniscript some are poor for lack of design some are poor because they followed the red book and some are poor because the vendors don t know what ps is don newbold don rastek com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re procomm plus for windows problems robert j niland rjn teal csn org wrote much text deleted i have heard from several people about less expensive m f i o cards with s tsd systems for the card plus per i can vouch for this one i ordered it and got it for including s h it took me awhile to figure out how to get it working with my system but since i did i get terrific results while downloading using pcplus for windows i used to get errors if i started any other program while downloading at high speed not anymore more text deleted tom huot huot cray com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	more cool bmp files hi everybody i guess my subject has said it all it is getting boring looking at those same old bmp files that came with windows so i am wondering if there is any body has some beautiful bmp file i can share or maybe somebody can tell me some ftp site for some bmp files like some scenery files some animals files etc i used to have some unfortunately i delete them all anyway could me give me some help please thanks a lot john
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re panasonic kx p i driver in apr netnews noc drexel edu brzyckmj dunx ocs drexel edu mike writes does anyone out there know if there are print drivers for windows for the panasonic kx p i pin dot matrix printer i ve been told that panasonic has uploaded some to compu erve but i don t have a cis account i just use the epson fx driver myself and it comes out very pretty if very slowly on my i carl fink carlf panix com c fink genie or cf i liuvax bitnet facts are stubborn things and whatever may be our wishes our inclinations or the dictates of our passions they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence john adams
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re gif to bmp saz hook corp mot com scott zabolotzky writes does anybody have any idea where i could find a program that can convert a gif image into a bmp image suitable for a windows wallpaper i e colors hopefully there s something out there i can get from an ftp site somewhere thanks in advance scott scott look on ftp cica indiana edu for gws zip they embed the release number in the name and i m not sure what the lates is it is graphics workshop there is a dos and a windows version both work great i even had someone bring me some images from the amiga and converted them to great looking wallpaper as color bmp files if you can t find it repost or let me know and i ll dig up the archive dave dave campbell wynapse wynapse wynapse indirect com the shareware custom control source
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re can i change licensed to data in windows in b b c vms csd mu edu a dubinski vms csd mu edu writes ahh yes this is a fun topic no once the name is incribed on the disk that is it it is encoded not even a hex editor will find it you can but a disk compare utility old versus new will and windows is also flexible enough at install time that you can copy all the files onto your hard disk which greatly speeds things up and makes them less annoying if you can spare the or so compressed megs write over the licensed to but you can t change the name underneth it i think if you wish to change this you would have to be a pirate and we re not going to promote that here no we re not but we re also not going to promote pandering to corporate paranoia when the real issue is convenience i don t like dealing with floppies personally i have no use for changing the registration info but i see it as a valid need and one that ought to be solved using a quick little utility rather than a half hour reinstall that s just about guaranteed to mess up your settings in one way or another so while i m not going to put much time into it myself here s the procedure for getting on your way to finding the encoded information copy all your windows disks into the directory from which you want to install it i ve been using c winstall myself from there copy that directory to something like c winorig install from c winstall comp the two directories to determine changes i e comp winorig report txt look in the report file for the file s that change assuming they didn t cover themselves covering their own tracks at least one file should have a difference noted at a particular offset locate said offset in the original directory and see what s there using a hex editor and do the same for the modified one you re on your own as far as breaking the code goes i don t really do cryptography it s probably just an xor key or something i think ms is more concerned with joe schmoe at the office personalizing his copy than with real pirates who will probably just disassemble the damned thing anyway this technique should work with just about any obnoxious corporate product that tries to write to the original floppies when you install in some extreme cases you may not be able to back the floppies up to hard disk and will be stuck doing a compare on floppies lotus stuff is probably like that as i noted before if you can afford the space on the hard disk and don t do much in the way of customization reinstalling from one directory to another may be less arduous doing some of the stuff i ve mentioned here may well void your license with microsoft as if they d ever find out if you aren t careful with the disk editor you could also mung something important duh i guess that s a disclaimer have at it rob rob kudla acm rpi edu keywords oldfield jane s leather yes win phish light blue right bondage r e m dtp steely dan ds fnm owl genesis in the spaceship the silver spaceship the lion takes control
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re diamond ss x win mouse cursor in apr nlm nih gov dabl nlm nih gov don a b lindbergh writes anybody seen mouse cursor distortion running the diamond x x driver sorry don t know the version of the driver no indication in the menus but it s a recently delivered gateway system am going to try the latest drivers from diamond bbs but wondered if anyone else had seen this sporadically yes it seems to flicker or change shape into snow briefly not enough to impair functionality just call attention to diamond s professional sloppiness rob rob kudla acm rpi edu keywords oldfield jane s leather yes win phish light blue right bondage r e m dtp steely dan ds fnm owl genesis in the spaceship the silver spaceship the lion takes control
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ndw norton desktop for windows i have an ibm and run windows a friend installed norton desktop for windows on top of this it loads automatically when i type win and surely adds to the already dismally slow process of starting up i would like to know how to stop or uninstall this program i have taken it out of win ini but it still pops up running with windows i did a big search and found reference to it in ndw ini system ini and progman ini removing it here causes a failure when starting up windows progrman ini has a group ndw exe which can t be deleted is there anyone familiar with ndw who can tell me how to turn it off thanks chet please email responses i can t read news from my home account chetter ucthpx uct ac za
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	truetype fonts that display but do not print i just installed a new truetype font under ms windows but though all the applications display the font correctly on the screen quite a few of them fail to print out the document correctly on a laserjet non postscript printer when i use the font in coreldraw the document prints correctly so i assume coreldraw knows that the font has to be downloaded to the printer but when i use the windows accessory write the printer prints square boxes in place of the characters of the new font yet write does display the font correctly on the screen i looked through all the windows and laserjet manuals but got nowhere all of them just make the statement that truetype fonts will print exactly as you see them on the screen so i assume windows knows that a font has to be downloaded automatically but how to make it do that appreciate any help
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re ndw norton desktop for windows in article apr leland stanford edu shiva leland stanford edu matt jacobson writes i have an ibm and run windows a friend installed norton desktop for windows on top of this it loads automatically when i type win and surely adds to the already dismally slow process of starting up i would like to know how to stop or uninstall this program is there anyone familiar with ndw who can tell me how to turn it off get the friend to uninstall it read the manual though from your post i infer that you are using pirated software go into sys ini and change the shell line to read shell progman exe daniel david mittleman danny arizona edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re cirrus logic graph card in article qms c t news cs tu berlin de wong cs tu berlin de wolfgang jung writes after setting up windows for using my cirrus logic vlb graphicscard it moved a normal window from one place to another what i was wondering why is it not using the bitblt engine which is suuposed to be on the chip how are the experiences here have i done something wrong the has its own set of drivers you may be using the drivers intended for the or by mistake be sure you have the driver version i installed the mswin multiresolution drivers which where supplied with the card don t quote me on this one but i d steer clear of the multi resolution driver that allows you to change resolution without exiting windows i think it s buggy also if there are new hopefully faster drrivers around i would love to how to get hold of them ftp or whatsoever version drivers are due to be release by cirrus soon unfortunately their not available via ftp you have to dial up their bbs in the usa i do this from nz using a k modem to cut down on phone bills it took me around minutes to download the v driver good luck andy gardner wellington new zealand te whanga nui a tara aotearoa
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re can i change licensed to data in windows kudla acm rpi edu robert kudla writes stuff about changing windows registration omitted the damned thing anyway this technique should work with just about any obnoxious corporate product that tries to write to the original floppies when you install in some extreme cases you may not be able huh my copy of win came on permanently write protected diskettes no sliding tabs
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	w w printing envelops on dj c not c i ve got a probelm with printing envelops on my deskjet c from word for windows history when i had a deskjet i had to modify the macro so that it would disable reverse printing since there seemed to be a bug that interferred with printing envelops that bug is still present however now the problem i have is that my deskjet print driver came with the printer i bought in december still wants to print the envelops in portrait mode however the deskjet feeds envelops the from the narrow end i e landscape mode how do i get the printer to print the envelops in the correct orientation please please please do not post this to the net since a due to end of the semester cruch i can t keep up on these groups and b i will summarize the best answer s to the net anyhow thanks in advance craig stevenson
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re ndw norton desktop for windows in article leland stanford edu shiva leland stanford edu matt jacobson writes i have taken it out of win ini but it still pops up running with windows i did a big search and found reference to it in ndw ini system ini and progman ini removing it here causes a failure when starting up windows progrman ini has a group ndw exe which can t be deleted is there anyone familiar with ndw who can tell me how to turn it off one of the items in the group folder typically called norton desktop applications is labelled norton desktop uninstall need i say more kris b gupta cardiothoracic imaging research center dept radiology hospital of u of pennsylvania internet kris gynko circ upenn edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	cool background patterns here are some cool d background patterns i made edit your control ini and add the following lines to your patterns section bricks tile tile diagonal slats make sure your desktop color is one of the standard colors or the patterns might not work i like dark grey the best with these if you have any cool one s of your own please mail them to me stefan powell spowell trentu ca peterborough ontario canada
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re ndw norton desktop for windows ndw i would like to know how to stop or uninstall this program if an uninstall icon doesn t exist in the norton desktop apps group run ndw s install program with u
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re truetype fonts that display but do not print in article apr mintaka lcs mit edu avinash silver lcs mit edu avinash chopde writes i just installed a new truetype font under ms windows but though all the applications display the font correctly on the screen quite a few of them fail to print out the document correctly on a laserjet non postscript printer but when i use the windows accessory write the printer prints square boxes in place of the characters of the new font yet write does display the font correctly on the screen this is a common problem with highly complex truetype fonts microsoft admits to a problem with older versions of the postscript printer driver but i ve found it to be pretty generic you can get around the problem by adjusting the parameter outlinethreshold in the truetype section of win ini this entry specifies the number of pels per em at which windows will render truetype fonts as outline fonts instead of as bitmap fonts the default is i ve generally been able to get fonts to work by setting outlinethreshold depending on your printer resolution and the point size you are using you may need a different value the windows resource kit warns against going above presumably that might cause fonts to print as square boxes or something i m not smiling bob nichols at t bell laboratories rnichols ihlpm ih att com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re hercules graphite tomh metrics com tom haapanen writes has anyone used a hercules graphite adapter it looks good on paper and steve gibson gave it a very good review in infoworld i d love to get a real world impression though how is the speed drivers support ntaib silver ucs indiana edu iskandar taib writes the pc world reviewers found out that the herc people had hard coded winbench text into the driver clever no in any case the winbench results are pretty much inflated two things that annoyed me about the pc magazine review their benchmarking technique is seriously flawed as was clearly shown by the graphite and gxe s cheating can t they just admit that their benchmark is to easy to optimize for and or cheat on wintach is much harder to beat the big cheat that hercules iit used was overlappipping bitblit and polyline optimization and hercules sent them a new driver which didn t do this but produced almost identical scores yet the only thing pc magazine says is that scores are not legitimate couldn t they at least make some comment about its real world performance i m not so much going by winbench for performance but rather by steve gibson s results which are more real world based like using micrografx draw to benchmark if you believe gibson that is he writes despite these documented cheats i have to say that in real world applications the hercules graphite adapter actually draws faster than any other display adapter in the industry even though it s just a modest isa bus card it outperformed every local bus adapter i have including the stealth vlb the fahrenheit va vlb the ati vlb mach and even the weitek p based diamond viper vlb this kind of praise is enough for me to be interested in it bogus winbench or not when and if you get one send me mail i might buy that ati gu off you i already returned the ati gu my dealer had sold eight of them and seven were returned to him i m now temporarily back to running an original ati gu until i get my graphite and yes the gu is faster in my mb system than the gu especially in bitmap handling that s where you use bitblits hercules has a promotion available for vars and software developers you can buy one graphite or graphite vlb for off list to try it out at just for graphite or for the vlb version i decided it was worth trying i m supposed to get the vlb board within two weeks i ll post my impressions when i get it tom haapanen tomh metrics com software metrics inc waterloo ont stick your index fingers into both corners of your mouth now pull up that s how the corrado makes you feel car january
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re can i change licensed to data in windows in apr trintex uucp charles tinman dev prodigy com writes have you tried re installing the software otherwise i would be dubious about simple ways to change that screen is it not designed to be an embarassment to would be pirates so when is prodigy going to open the doors for inetgate to accept internet mail eh obviously if you can post news mail should go through as well carlos dominguez sysadmin kibbitzer carlos carlos jpr com carlos carlos uucp carlos carlos bang
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	what about smartdrv double buffer i am curious what does the double buffer parameter in smartdrv actually do for me i seem to have less problems in windows when i leave it out using a ps with an esdi drive but also a ps with a scsi any response is welcome peter sweeney psweeney miavx acs muohio edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	winhelp exe virus is anyone familiar with a virus that infects the winhelp exe file i have recently noticed some unusual system behavior and ran norton antivirus for windows it indicated a possible unknown virus in the winhelp exe file in both the mwindows and winos directories neither file changed since i installed my os system in january as far as i know any information about this possible virus and suggestions on remedies would be greatly appreciated bobb samuell samuell cis uab edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	qestion about amipro demo files on cica hello i have a question about the demo files for amipro v uploaded in cica i downloaded it and tryied to install it however it didn t work in addition it altered or eliminated my nwres dll file so that i had to reinstall my norton desktop again is there anything i have to know to install it or do i eventually have to ask lotus to send a working model to me i heard that they have it i just want to see its look and feel before buying it any pointer would be greatly appreciated thank you hiroto miyoshi psych toronto edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re postscript view for dos or windows where can i find the ms windows version of ghostscript thanks in article hjstein apr sunrise huji ac il hjstein sunrise huji ac i l harvey j stein writes i ve been using version of ghostscript and i m quite satisfied with it there are actually versions a plain dos version a version and a windows version harvey stein hjstein math huji ac il m
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re x emulator a posting in another news group i read a while ago said that pc xview and pc xremote allow you to use xterm call ncd for more info hope it helps hao hao zhang dept of stat wharton school univ of penn zhang wharton upenn edu hzhang compstat wharton upenn edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	last i have two questions i have been having troubles with my wordperfect for windows when i try to select and change fonts etc some of the text disappears i tried to center two lines once and the second line disappeared i can not find the error and i do not know how to correct it is this the right newsgroup where should i go e mail prefered who else is still waiting for naked gun part pi nathan narloch alumn whscdp whs edu enforcer burp or narlochn kirk msoe edu milw wi join the official psycho team
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dos font size in windows i have an a card and i am using windows in x mode normal a font not small in the enhanced mode the dos window font is too small for my monitor is there a way to spacify the font size for the dos window you ll have to excuse me if there is a trivial answer since i am fairly new to ms windows world thanks please include this message for reference s alavi ssa unity ncsu edu h w
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	need help with wordperfect for windows i have two questions i have been having troubles with my wordperfect for windows when i try to select and change fonts etc some of the text disappears i tried to center two lines once and the second line disappeared i can not find the error and i do not know how to correct it is this the right newsgroup where should i go e mail prefered who else is still waiting for naked gun part pi nathan narloch alumn whscdp whs edu enforcer burp or narlochn kirk msoe edu milw wi join the official psycho team
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	canon bj bubblejet and hp deskjet hello fellow netters i am asking for your collected wisdom to help me decide which printer i should purchase the canon bj bubblejet vs the hp deskjet i thought rather than trust the salesperson i would benefit more from relying on those who use these printers daily and use them to their fullest potential and i figure all of you will know their benefits and pitfalls better than any salesperson now i would greatly appreciate any information you could render on the dpi of the canon bubblejet vs the hewlett packard deskjet dpi which is faster is there a noticeable print quality difference particularly in graphics which will handle large documents better pages or more any personal experience on either will be appreciated here which works better under windows any driver problems etc cost of memory font packages toner cartridges etc basically your personal experiences with either of these machines is highly desirable both good and bad advance kudos and thanks for all your input e mail or news posting is readily acceptable but e mail is encouraged limits bandwidth sincerely robert kayman kayman cs stanford edu or cpa cs stanford edu in theory theory and practice are the same in practice they are not you mean you want the revised revision of the original revised revision revised
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	anyone use number gxe video card has anyone used the number nine video graphics adaptor with windows or windows nt what do you think c
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	keyboard specifications to all hardware and firmware gurus my current home project is to build a huge paddle keyboard for a physically handicapped relative of mine my goal is for this keyboard to look exactly like an at sytle keyboard to its host system this will be a highly endowed keyboard with a little pcl from z world at its heart the only thing i lack is detailed information on the hardware signaling that the with windows and dos will be expecting my project is independant of windows my hope is that some of you fellow window s users programmers will recognize what i need and be willing to point me in the right direction i have the winn l rosch hardware bible nd edition the hb gives most if not all of the information i will need concerning scan codes and even a wire diagram for the ps style connector i will need but it leaves a number of important questions unanswered is it synchronous or asynchronous serial communication i m guessing synchronous since the host is providing a clock in either event how is the data framed is it half duplex or truly one way i m guessing half duplex since the host can turn leds on and off are there any chipsets available for communicating with the at keyboard standard other than by cannibalizing a real keyboard if anyone knows of a book or article or any other written source of information on the above please advise me at gamet erg sri com whatever i do it must be safe for i cannot afford to replace the in the event of a booboo thank you for your time danke fuer ihre zeit thomas gamet gamet erg sri com software engineer sri international
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	page numbering problem with wfw canon bj e i am using wfw c with a canon bj e the printer driver is that which comes with windows unfortatunately i am having a problem with printing page numbers on the bottom of the page i can print page number on the top of the page but not on the bottom has anybody had a similar problem and or does anybody have a solution for such a problem thanks pwoodcoc business uwo ca pwoodcoc sms business uwo ca c patrick woodcock western business school london ontario
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re gui application frameworks for windows in apr cimlinc uucp bharper cimlinc uucp brett harper writes hello i m investigating the purchase of an object oriented application framework i have come across a few that look good zapp from inmark zinc from zinc software c views from liant win from blaise some considerations i m using being new to windows programming i m from the unix x world the quality and intuitivness of the abstraction that these class libraries provide is very important however since i m not adverse to learning the internals of windows programming the new programming methodology should be closely aligned with the native one i don t believe arbitrary levels of abstraction just for the sake of changing the api are valuable the microsoft founation classes afx that come with c c and visual c are very good they already have a version for nt it comes with source code and is very close to the navtive api it also as some classes to manage data structures stefan stefan olson mail stefan olson acme gen nz kindness in giving creates love
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	is ms windows a mature os hi have you used mac system x or x if the answer is positive you would know if ms windows is a mature os days ago people doubted that ms windows is not a real os i can see why they have such question ms windows confuses many people microsoft simulated mac but it did a lousy job for example you can not create hierarchy groups there is no way to create a group in a group if you know how please tell me too many system parameters to take care of uncomplete documentation it s not easy to find the reason why causes an unpredictable error group deleting file deleting after deleting a group users have to use file manager to delete files but if users forget to delete some related files the disk will be full of nonsense files share problem once you create two windows doing compilation and editing in some language w o good editor there will be a sharing problem you just can not open or save the program if it is loaded it makes sense to prevent from saving but not opening microsoft try to compromise between dos and windows but they just make ms windows a graphical dos with capacity doing mutiple dos jobs the worst thing is they complicate the environment the orginal purpose of ms windows should be to simplify the environment and make pc easier to use it s by no means easy to satisfy everybody but if microsoft want to keep their reputations they should evaluate the user interface more carefully before products distribute no flame please jesse e mail cyen cs unt edu ic sol acs unt edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re how do i make ghostscript work you need gs ini zip and zip and zip font files you can get these from wuarchive wustl edu mirrors msdos postscript i also advice you to get gs gui zip from cica it is a nice interface for ghostscript ghostscript is very user unfriendly this interface makes it user friendly for using this interface you have to get vbrun dll from risc ua edu pub network misc copy this to your windows directory copy gui executables and other files to your ghostscript directory and anter the line below to your autoexec bat set gs lib c your ghostscript and gui directory now you are ready to use it enjoy it in article apr ulkyvx louisville edu cl ulkyvx louisvill e edu steve w brewer writes what files do i need to download for ghostscript i have never used ghostscript before so i don t have any files for it what i do have is gs win zip which i downloaded from cica unfortunately it doesn t seem to work on it s own but needs some more files that i don t have i want to run ghostscript both in windows and in ms dos on a pc i understand there s versions for both environments what are all the files i need to download and where can i get them any info would be appeciated steve w brewer rewerb w evets cl ulkyvx louisville edu ude ellivsiuol xvyklu lc m
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re dos font size in windows in article apr ncsu edu ssa unity ncsu edu s alavi writes normal a font not small in the enhanced mode the dos window font is too small for my monitor is there a way to spacify the font size for the dos window you ll have to excuse me if there is a trivial answer since i am fairly new to ms windows world thanks s alavi ssa unity ncsu edu h first of all without wanting to sound nagging and bossy yes it is a trivial answer and that s perfectly fine otherwise how is one supposed to move up to the complicated and challenging questions we net readers so much enjoy and the massive crossposting of your article was not justified please refer to appropriate newsgroups next time by the way c o msw misc is ok now as far as your problem is concerned try playing around with the settings in the fonts dialog box under the window control menu that little square at the top left corner of the window costas malamas georgia institute of technology oit ua opinions expressed are not necessarily oit s internet ccastco prism gatech edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re is ms windows a mature os to get hierarchical icon groups in ms windows use norton desktop for windows ms windows in not mature it s lousy but its supposed to be lousy it s goal is to be ubiquitous not good ms windows is the course for the masses in it infrastructure dos cp m unix was the course for the cogniscenti in it infrastructure together they prove that there is good effect of good it and there is good effect of ubiquitous it what we need now is both at a significiantly higher level of function posix dce corba see the problem nt may be it infrastructure but it will also be it monopoly was ibm we have a conundrum gentlepeople what are we going to do about it dubious lee lee d rothstein veritech merrymeeting drive merrimack nh fax information technology verification leadership
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re wp pcf linux risc dear friend the risc means reduced instruction set computer the risc usually has small instruction set so as to reduce the circuit complex and can increase the clock rate to have a high performance you can read some books about computer architecture for more information about risc ghhwang csie nctu edu tw form r o c taiwan
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	need video drivers for tseng true color hello i purchased a video card called et true color card which can provide about k colors but the question is i can t find the corresponding drivers for windows i am now using k colors driver for win it works fine but i think it will be better if i use k driver so please tell me whether such a driver is available thanks in advance forever michael jordan tony g wu gtonwu uz nthu edu tw cae rheology lab nthu tony che nthu edu tw
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	can i only insert color pics in wfw well the subject says just about all i intended to ask is there no way to insert a color into wfw when i try it the picture turns into a color pic jonni
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	internal speaker driver this probably is in a faq somewhere but i m looking for microsoft s internal speaker sound driver for windows should be at microsoft s ftp site but i can t remember the name of the site thanks
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re is ms windows a mature os in article cyen ponder jesse writes hi have you used mac system x or x if the answer is positive you would know if ms windows is a mature os days ago people doubted that ms windows is not a real os i can see why they have such question ms windows confuses many people microsoft common complaints about ms windows deleted jesse e mail cyen cs unt edu ic sol acs unt edu hmmmm why do i get the feeling that this is gonna start one of those endless threads mac vs win and might even end up as os vs win well i dont know if windows is a mature os if i have seen one in which case that has to be x windows but dont be so quick to judge first of all to try to use plain vanilla windows is as courageous as to try to use plain vanilla dos there are lots of very nice commercial and shareware packages utilities that will boost up windows past what ms itself thought possible for example norton desktop for windows a replace ment for progman will give you group within a group capability and will even change group icons it will launch progs by association well fileman does that too or by dragging the file in the apps icon now mac doesnt do that huh and the list goes on and on now windows is kinda hard to finetune boost and configure but thats trhe price to pay for not paying to get a mac or an os capable machine an entirely differet story on the other hand if you dont like the idea of pm s icons not correspnding to the files themselves well they are not supposed to pm is a program launching utility not a file manager modify your settings to have fm as your shell and not pm or get a couple of utilities from cica that supposedly give you a mac feel i dont wanna get in the discussion which is a better system mac s are good in their own way they are different not better or worse than win pcs actually i am writing this from a mac lab as a user assistant so dont think i am partial to win by all means check out the stuff in cica ftp to ftp cica indiana edu under the pub pc win subdir user anonymous or wait for startrek mac s os on a pc the threads we are gonna have then just trying to avoid another mac win war costas malamas georgia institute of technology oit ua opinions expressed are not necessarily oit s internet ccastco prism gatech edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	midi files on ms win and soundblaster i have a dx computer with a soundblaster card i m running microsoft windows v i have the sb driver set up properly to play normal sounds wav files etc i want to play midi files through the media player that is included with windows i know i have to set up the patch maps or something in the midi mapper in the control panel i know nothing about midi this is to be the way i ll get my feet wet how do i set up windows so that i can play midi files david thomas dudek v pwxs ubvms bitnet the cybard state university dudek sun acsu buffalo edu of new york if music be the food of love buffalo play on wm shakespeare
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	any video gurus feel like attacking this quirk hi there i m having a bizarre video problem within windows i have a with a gvga video board i ve been using the standard windows vga driver with other similarly configured computers i am thinking that my problem is with the way windows refreshes it s screen the problem is that once windows has been envoked the colors start changing themselves at first i thought it was hardware but if you open a full screen dos program from within the windows session you don t have any problems until you get back to windows however when you initially return to windows the original colors get refreshed properly also it is not a uniform color change so if you are in solitaire the design on the back of the card maintains it s original color scheme but the white fronts of the cards will turn grey then blue etc the color changes keep getting darker until finally everything is a dark purple ish black if you pop out to dos and exit back to windows the screen gets refreshed again if i don t log into windows and just do dos things from the novell network everything is fine i originally loaded the software by bouncing it down to the net from the other machine i had just finished configuring then from the net to this machine when i ran into problems i deleted everything on this machine and the net and tried bouncing it again when that didn t work i tried reloading windows to no avail any thoughts on things to check out i am totally baffled thanks in advance for any assistance and instruction linda cornell lcornell u washington edu uw office of research
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re win nt what is it in article bcf c a deneva sdd trw com reimert etdesg trw com scott p reimert writes somewhere in this thread it has been said that windows nt tm is a multi user os as well as multi threading etc i certainly haven t seen this to be the case there are seperate accounts for each person and even seperate directories if that is desired i don t see an implentation of simultaneuos use though scott it certainly is multi user what i have seen from the march beta is that it doesn t yet come with the stuff which exploits multi user features i remember somebody from ms stating that it doesn t allow two users share one gui my interpretation of this was that one user per console but all the networking and rpc based stuff you want i believe ftp and rlogin deamons for nt systems will come from third party somebody already has a beta version of an unsecure ftpd on the net there is no reason why one cannot write a posix based shell like csh on unix for remote logins in general i liked nt when i checked it out it slow compared to win just like any other real os the beta version although being slow botts up much faster than my sun workstation windows subsystems also start up a lot faster than x windows i believe bill gates was right when he stated that nt was not for everybody after playing around with it for a while i was convinced if i owned a busines using a business computer from ibm or some other established vendor i would consider moving to nt platform because it would provide a much cheaper solution if you are running sql servers etc it provides the robustness such an application requires on the other hand if you like your dos games more or less forget about nt you can always boot to dos but in general that defeats the purpose of using nt most of nt s features are visible in a networked environment and in such an environment you can t reboot your machine at will for personal use i would rather wait for the win based windows release whatever you name it than jump to nt bandwagon i expect most applications will keep on using win until win becomes widely available sadun anik u of illinois at urbana champaign center for reliable and high performance computing e mail anik crhc uiuc edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re need help with wp for windows in article apr kirk msoe edu narlochn kirk msoe edu writes i have two questions i have been having troubles with my wordperfect for windows when i try to select and change fonts etc some of the text disappears i tried to center two lines once and the second line disappeared i can not find the error and i do not know how to correct it is this the right newsgroup where should i go e mail prefered i know you said e mail preferred but because this is a common problem with wpwin i ll post it here the screen only looks like the text is gone usually you can just page up then page down and when it does a complete refresh the text reappears i have had on rare occasions to completely exit save first the program when i reopened the file all chaos had been resolved i don t know why it does this but it is annoying the graphics problems have now made me a word for windows user
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re need video drivers for tseng true color tony g wu gtonwu uz nthu edu tw wrote hello i purchased a video card called et true color card which can provide about k colors but the question is i can t find the corresponding drivers for windows i am now using k colors driver for win it works fine but i think it will be better if i use k driver so please tell me whether such a driver is available thanks in advance i am sorry my card can display about k colors not k colors i hope some one could answer my question thanks forever michael jordan tony g wu gtonwu uz nthu edu tw cae rheology lab nthu tony che nthu edu tw
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ftp tool for windows is there any one know what is the ftp tool for windows and where to get the tool thanks for any help h j
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	fahrenheit problems help hi i recently bought an orchid fahrenheit it s a real nice card but i m having very big problems with it the basic problem is that vertical lines are missing from the display in windows something like every other line or so also when i use a dos gif viewer namely vpic c in fahrenheit mode vertical lines are swapped it s very strange looking if it uses vesa standards however it works great only it thinks there s only k on the card there s mb on there i have contacted orchid support and they tried to be helpful but didn t have the answer i don t think the card is the problem since it works great on my friend s computer here is my setup fahrenheit mb bios opti chipset ami bios mb ram maxtor mb harddrive slave maxtor mb harddrive master panasonic c monitor version windows drivers windows i tried taking all memory managers etc off and took all other cards besides disk controller off my friend s setup is sx shamrock monitor if anyone has seen anything like this or can otherwise help i will be very greatful please send e mail to tdarugar tartarus ucsd edu or tdarugar ebon ucsd edu tony
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win hang help problem mhz hangs in extended mode trying to access drives a or b sometimes it will do dir sometimes will hang on access sometimes will when tying a text file hardware american megatrend motherboard ami bios conner mb hard drive trident meg svga please help its ok in standard mode
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win config sys query hi there with a megs of ram is there a need to run load smartdrv for windows if yes can i run load ramdrive without smartdrv if i need both ramdrive smartdrv is the following config sys settings ok smartdrv sys ramdrive sys e thanks in advance for e mail reply yuan wiliki eng hawaii edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wanted info on asymetrix toolbook does anyone know the phone and fax number of the asymetrix corporation i am also interested in their e mail address i would also like to know what the current status of their product toolbook is i received the last update about year ago are their any new developments or is toolbook slowly dying regards rob de winter nothing beats skiing if you want to have real fun during holidays rob de winter philips research ist it building wl p o box ja eindhoven the netherlands tel e mail dewinter prl philips nl
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re dos font size in windows s alavi ssa unity ncsu edu wrote i have an a card and i am using windows in x mode normal a font not small in the enhanced mode the dos window font is too small for my monitor is there a way to spacify the font size for the dos window you ll have to excuse me if there is a trivial answer since i am fairly new to ms windows world thanks please include this message for reference s alavi ssa unity ncsu edu h w as i can recall you can click on the upper left button of dos window then choose font to change also there is a demo window to show you in advance how the font you choose will affect the size of dos window make a try
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wanted xterm emulator for windows hello i am looking for a xterm emulator which runs under windows please reply via e mail thanks chera bekker h g bekker e mail bekker tn utwente nl faculty of applied physics voice university of twente fax the netherlands
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re diamond ss x win mouse cursor dabl nlm nih gov don a b lindbergh writes in article apr nlm nih gov dabl nlm nih gov don a b lindbergh writes anybody seen mouse cursor distortion running the diamond x x driver sorry don t know the version of the driver no indication in the menus but it s a recently delivered gateway system am going to try the latest drivers from diamond bbs but wondered if anyone else had seen this as a followup this is a co worker s machine he has the latest drivers it only happens using the x x driver sometimes it takes a minute or so for the cursor to wig out but it eventually does in this mode i susect something is stepping on memory the video card wants i excluded a c ff in the emm line and in system ini the problem persisted perhaps it is something specific to the gateway machine or it s components it is a mhz dx eisa bus with an ultrastore xx controller ah well i was hoping this was some kind of known problem or somebody had seen it before perhaps a call to gateway is in order but i do find folks here usually are far more in the know i have had several problems with the card applications crashed when moving the mouse vga mode fixed by removing the line stacks from config sys the default value stacks does just fine random white pixels all over the screen when moving the mouse in a color graphical mode the hardware cursor modes fixed by turning off the hardware scroll xmode scrolloff before entering the graphics mode this also fixed the problem of the windowed dos boxes under windows with the hardware scroll enabled applications write garbage outside the window the screensavers do not remove the cursor in color modes hardware cursor i don t know if this is a windows problem or a driver problem clearly there should be two types of cursor removing functions a remove for draw which can be ignored for hardware cursors and a remove unconditionally do other cards with hardware cursors have the same problem the vesa driver does not support the x x m truecolor mode universal vesa drivers do not run at all disclaimer unless otherwise stated the above comments are entirely my own jan van loenen digital equipment corporation jvl idca tds philips nl hlde loenen j
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	emm exe and windows and dos in windows i created a permanent swap file of kb as win recommended me to do that bit access if i use emm exe after win startup i have k of memory free if i leave emm exe out of my config sys i have k of memory free and windows recommends me a swap file of k i use dos with memmaker have mb of internal memory and a dx does anybody knows why this is happening possibly win needs some umb s to manage virtual memory if true which umb s those that emm can find without including suspicious parts i need an optimized dos environment because i develop applications for dos using a windows programming environment rudi
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re win hang eng eng monash edu au charles choong writes help problem mhz hangs in extended mode trying to access drives a or b sometimes it will do dir sometimes will hang on access sometimes will when tying a text file hardware american megatrend motherboard ami bios conner mb hard drive trident meg svga please help its ok in standard mode i have the same problem someone suggested it might be a bios bug gonna check with my supplier tomorrow i ll tell you if it helps wouter
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re re win nt what is it anyway don t expect it soon windows and dos are supposed to my understanding was that chicago was dos be released next year read see it in so i expect that chicogo won t be out til dominic drohan email drohand cad gmeds com electronic data systems phone if you d like to talk for hours just go ahead now the spin doctors note the views and opinions expressed herein are mine and do not reflect those of electronic data systems corp
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ftp site for wav files hello everybody are there any ftp sites with wav files available frode kvam c name frode kvam univ university of trondheim dept of informatics e mail frode ifi unit no snail mail lademoens kirkealle trondheim voice beware of programmers who carry screwdrivers
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	moving icons i remember reading about a program that made windows icons run away from the mouse as it moved near them does anyone know the name of this program and the ftp location probably at cica kirk membry our age is the age of industry rutgers viamar kmembry alexander rodchenko
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	pixel font i m looking for a font that looks like pixels off of a monitor not the lcd kind of font though does anyone know where i can get one kirk membry our age is the age of industry rutgers viamar kmembry alexander rodchenko
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re anyone use number gxe video card in article npg sd sandiegoca ncr com claborne npg sd sandiegoca ncr com chris claborne writes has anyone used the number nine video graphics adaptor with windows or windows nt what do you think i just put one in my machine last week i have an ast i was getting million winmarks with my diamond ss and the board is doing million winmarks from my brief experiences with it i m very satisfied btw this is with win marc snyder uucp philabs crpmks marcs system administrator ciba geigy corporation hawthorne new york work play
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	need help setting pif for games hi there i have a few games that i d like to run under windows and can t get the pifs adjusted right for example wing commander in my dos prompt i have more than k available for programs this is enough to run wc so i build a pif giving wc a couple of megs of extended memory etc and run it wc prompts loading wing commander and then a message about using extended memory etc and then my screen goes black just before the opening scene the orchestra would have appeared i also have a pool game that does almost the same thing it opens up and prompts me for what kind of video driver i have cga ega etc i respond ega and the screen goes black on both of these a ctrl alt del getss me back to windows has anyone run wing commander under windows or has had the problems i describe and fixed them here s the rest of my setup mb disk free mb memory free during win session dx respond here or on e mail if anyone else needs this info send me mail in a couple of days and i ll forward the replies to you clinton a pierce cartesian bear polar bear after coordinate transform clintp world std com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re wp pcf linux risc in article c o yq m csie nctu edu tw ghhwang csie nctu edu tw ghhwang writes dear friend the risc means reduced instruction set computer the risc usually has small instruction set so as to reduce the circuit complex and can increase the clock rate to have a high performance you can read some books about computer architecture for more information about risc hmm not that i am an authority on risc but i clearly remember reading that the instruction set on risc cpus is rather large the difference is in addressing modes risc instruction sets are not as orthogonal is cisc some people say it s fun but i think it s very serious eugene macadam mpce mq edu au
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	window start up position for app how how do you set up an app to give its window a default start up position and size mike hayes knowledge is good faber college motto www knowledge and thoroughness rensselear poly motto unemployed tech no thank you groucho marx a day at the races driven to banging my head against engineering physics for years
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re wanted info on asymetrix toolbook in article apr prl philips nl dewinter prl philips nl rob de winter writes does anyone know the phone and fax number of the asymetrix corporation i am also interested in their e mail address i would also like to know what the current status of their product toolbook is i received the last update about year ago are their any new developments or is toolbook slowly dying regards rob de winter nothing beats skiing if you want to have real fun during holidays rob de winter philips research ist it building wl p o box ja eindhoven the netherlands tel e mail dewinter prl philips nl rob their e mail adress is support asymetrix com i ve heard v is in beta have a look at bitserv list toolb l which is a toolbook list regards olaf winkelhake
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re borland s paradox offer i am considering buying borland s paradox for windows since i would like to use a database with windows i don t have use one yet for both work home use i would like to advantage of borland s until april offer if this package is everything that borland claims it to be so i was wondering has anybody used this and or have any opinions tom belmonte i ve been using ms access still available from some stores for and i am quite pleased with it it s relatively easy to learn very easy to use and somewhat easy to program i highly recomend it particularly at i have not used paradox for windows but i don t expect it to be better than access imho dave
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	winword and quattro pro problems on a notebook hello i have a sx notebook with windows running fine winword and quattro pro for windows also work fine when no virtual memory is used switching on the virtual memory option these programs probably others too don t work the system crashes the same programs work well with arbitrary virtual memory on two other desktop pc s what am i doing wrong if you can help please mail to me directly if possible thank you very much in advance stefan stefan k kolodzie heinrich heine university institute for general psychology duesseldorf germany e mail kolodzie ze rz uni duesseldorf de
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how do i quickly switch between windows screen resolutions can someone out there tell me how to switch window s screen resolution quickly and easily i know that i can go back into install to do it but what i d really like is to have is the ability to just change a couple of startup or configuration files and have the resolution changed i already have both video drivers that i need on my system so that isn t a problem thanks sean sean l gilley sean l gilley att com use this address all others bounce h w
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how to transfer to video tape hi all i m asking for info on behalf of a friend is there what would be the best way to copy the output of a monitor on to video tape any ideas please prescribe additional hardware and or software i m just assuming an intel windows environment thanks in advance jerry help support dam jerry w johnson struggling csci grad student jwjohn ecst csuchico edu is there any other kind mothers against dyslexia
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	okidata printer driver i have an okidata printer for which i would like to have a printer driver has anyone seen such a thing there is not one on the microsoft bbs i can print to it from windows but i have no fonts available and with paradox for windows i can t print labels on it unless there is a proper printer defined thanks bryan k ward survey research center university of utah i mail bryan src sbs utah edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	diamond speedstar driver for v i am looking for a win driver or set for my diamond speedstar mb video card does anybody know of an archive site that has these i looked at cica and it had drivers for the stealth card and for generic et cards but not one specifically for the speedstar is there one or has diamond dropped the speedstar out of the driver development loop thanks for any info rob robert mee boston university information technology rem bu it bu edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re win nt what is it in article bcf c a deneva sdd trw com reimert etdesg trw com scott p reimert writes somewhere in this thread it has been said that windows nt tm is a multi user os as well as multi threading etc i certainly haven t seen this to be the case there are seperate accounts for each person and even seperate directories if that is desired i don t see an implentation of simultaneuos use though since running any gui over a network is going to slow it down by a fair amount i expect windows nt will be multiuser only in the sense of sharing filesystems someone will likely write a telnetd for it so one could run character based apps but graphics based apps will have to be shared by running the executables on the local cpu this is how things are shaping up everywhere client server architectures are taking over from the old cpu terminal setups note that the next does this you can always telnet into a next and run character based apps but you can t run the gui yeah i know about x windows just haven t been too impressed by it iskandar taib the only thing worse than peach ala internet ntaib silver ucs indiana edu frog is frog ala peach bitnet ntaib iubacs
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re dos font size in windows ssa unity ncsu edu s alavi writes i have an a card and i am using windows in x mode normal a font not small in the enhanced mode the dos window font is too small for my monitor is there a way to spacify the font size for the dos window you ll have to excuse me if there is a trivial answer since i am fairly new to ms windows world thanks please include this message for reference s alavi ssa unity ncsu edu h w the control box of the window itself upper left corner of the window single click am i being too simplistic has a font option the x is about the biggest one i can use without the characters turning funky hpoe this helps
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows nt faq in article c dhtf d p news rich bnr ca gal bnr ca gene lavergne writes i really gives me pause to ask this when i first heard of windows nt i was surprised by the name because it immediately occurred to me that it sounds like a northern telecom product did anyone else notice that by the way bnr see address below is an r d subsidiary of nt see what i mean gal bnr ca gene a lavergne in all of opera i most identify esn with the character of elektra po box richardson tx that often worries me usa opinions expressed here are mine and not bnr s windows nt or wnt can also be derived by the next letter in the alphabet of vms same as hal and ibm you might recall that the chief architect of vms is also chief designer of wnt rajiev gupta rajiev gupta eurocontrol cfmu disclaimer rajiev cfmu eurocontrol be rue de la loi these are my views tel b bruxelles not my companies fax belgium
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re questions about windows nt help in article c cq fc ms uky edu shan ms uky edu minghua shan writes i don t know much about windows nt but i ve always thought that win nt would run only on intel compatable systems we are setting up a network which includes a sun sparc server and about a dozen pc s some people suggest that we run windows nt on the sun sparc server replacing the current os sunos i don t know whether this is possible and whether this would do us any good i would appreciate any help on answering a few questions below does windows nt run on sun sparc server if the answer to question is yes does it run unix applications such as sas for unix is windows nt a multiuser os when will windows nt be released is there any telephone number that i can call and get more info on win nt thank you minghua shan as far as i have read win nt will be supported on intel dec alpha and the mips r series of processors only i do remember though reading a rumour about sparc support sometime in the future i am not sure what you mean by running unix applications you would have to have sas for win nt or maybe sas for win etc i have read that ms will anounce avalaibility of win nt by end of may comdex spring hope this helps rajiev gupta rajiev gupta eurocontrol cfmu disclaimer rajiev cfmu eurocontrol be rue de la loi these are my views tel b bruxelles not my companies fax belgium
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows keeps crashing please help in article apr oracle us oracle com ebosco us oracle com eric bosco writes from ebosco us oracle com eric bosco subject windows keeps crashing please help date fri apr gmt as the subjects says windows keeps crashing givinh me gpf on me of late it was never a very stable package but now it seems to crash every day the worst part about it is that it does not crash consistently ie i there is a way in sys ini to turn off ram parity checking unfortunately my good windows references are at home but any standard win reference will tell you how to do it if not email back to me that weird memory may be producing phony parity errors danger is if you turn checkling off you run the slight risk of data corruption due to a missed real error
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re wp pcf linux risc in article qu ud hd sunb ocs mq edu au eugene mpce mq edu au writes in article c o yq m csie nctu edu tw ghhwang csie nctu edu tw ghhwang writes dear friend the risc means reduced instruction set computer the risc usually has small instruction set so as to reduce the circuit complex and can increase the clock rate to have a high performance you can read some books about computer architecture for more information about risc hmm not that i am an authority on risc but i clearly remember reading that the instruction set on risc cpus is rather large the difference is in addressing modes risc instruction sets are not as orthogonal is cisc i hope this will clear it up taken from one of my lecture notes the alternative approach to cisc which has been adopted by many in recent years has come to be known as risc the reduced instruction set computer this can be characterised simply as simpler is faster by simplifying the design e g by reducing the variety of instructions addressing modes the hardware can be designed to run faster even at the cost of needing more instructions the same task can be done more quickly by the simpler faster design a typical risc processor will o provide a large number of registers e g o perform all data operations on registers o provide few addressing modes e g immediate or register offset o only allow load store operations to access memory o only use a few instruction formats o only support a few data types e g integer unsigned floating steffi beckhaus janet steffi beckhaus uk ac newcastle if the odds are a million to one against something occurring chances are it will
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	fax software for windows i would like to know about the current fax software available for windows does it take a baud fax modem or k please respond with info thank you very much chad toelle toelle evansville edu s st philip rd or mt vernon in uunet evansville edu toelle
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	more cool bmp files in article apr gmuvax gmu edu rwang gmuvax gmu edu writes hi everybody i guess my subject has said it all it is getting boring looking at those same old bmp files that came with windows so i am wondering if there is any body has some beautiful bmp file i can share or maybe somebody can tell me some ftp site for some bmp files like some scenery files some animals files etc i used to have some unfortunately i delete them all i downloaded the compuserve gif of the month a raytraced image of a golf ball next to a hole very nice x x bitmap easily converted to a windows bmp if anyone wants i could upload a copy on cica eric eric trepanier internet eric tgm cam org ci grenon o laval quebec h n m everybody has a right to believe in something canada i believe i ll have another beer
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re using microsoft foundation classes with borland c hi all has anybody tried to compile ctrltest from the mfc samples directory after compiling the mfc libs with bwc seems to me that bwc isn t able to distinguish pointers to overloaded functions for example imagine the following overloaded functions void same name void void same name int after trying the whole day i think with bwc its impossible to take the adress of one of the above two functions and assign it to a properly defined function pointer am i right has anybody else had this problem thanx
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re anyone know stacker s email address does anybody know if stacker has a e mail address and if so what it is i know they have a bbs and something on compuserve but i m hoping someone know s their e mail address john white from stac electronics can be reached at compuserv as for me compuserve com would as email address work from internet internet ffritze hpwbe wad hp com phone germany address fromut fritze waldbronn analytic division r d hewlett packard str d waldbronn germany
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re need help writing ms excel macro for each student do begin lowest score found max possible value for i to number of assignments do begin if score i lowest score found then lowest score found score i end total score sum all scores lowest score found end couldn t you simply use min as you use sum and than subtract it from sum internet ffritze hpwbe wad hp com phone germany address fromut fritze waldbronn analytic division r d hewlett packard str d waldbronn germany
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win startup screen downgraded to win startup screen hhhheeeellllpppp meeeeeee i installed a color svga driver for my windows last week this driver was downloaded from ftp cica indiana edu specifically for paradise svga card however after i installed it and when i run windows the startup screen in the beginning becomes the old windows startup screen everything works fine except the startup screen i know the startup screen must have been changed in the system ini file or is it but i couldn t figure out what to alter can some one help me with this please e mail to my address thang tree egr uh edu or thang jetson uh edu in addition can anyone know where can i get a x paradise svga driver color this is a used computer and i do not have anything drivers etc regarding the driver thanks in advance o
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re borland s paradox offer i am considering buying borland s paradox for windows since i would like to use a database with windows i don t have use one yet for both work home use i would like to advantage of borland s until april offer if this package is everything that borland claims it to be so i was wondering has anybody used this and or have any opinions tom belmonte if you are interested in a program which is very easy to use i strongly suggest approach it is extremely easy to use make reports etc i own both it and paradox and i almost never use paradox if you need to build up a complicated application then paradox is the way to go i have heard horror stories about the access programming being extremely cryptic since you seem like you will probably be doing fairly small stuff work home use and you have not used a database before i recommend approach i have found only one small thing which i would like it to do more easily i have one database where the order in which the records are entered must be different than what is the logical ordering to permanently reorder to use the old dbase iii command the records requires sorting the records appropriately no problem since i almost always use them in this order exporting the database to another database which can still be an approach database and then copying the exported files back to the original filename this is a small weakness considering the other items i really like about approach it is also a little slower than paradox other than the loading paradox takes forever and a minute to load paradox also takes a lot of memory both hard disk around mb and ram greg bishop bishop baeyer chem fsu edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re how do i quickly switch between windows screen resolutions in article c qlr djl cbnewsl cb att com slg slgsun att com the idealistic cynic writes can someone out there tell me how to switch window s screen resolution quickly and easily i know that i can go back into install to do it sean l gilley take a look at ftp cica indiana edu at pub pc win util misc for a program caleld vswitch zip it s as close to want you want as you can get in win hope it helps costas malamas georgia institute of technology oit ua opinions expressed are not necessarily oit s internet ccastco prism gatech edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re diamond speedstar driver for v in article bu edu rem buitc bu edu robert mee writes i am looking for a win driver or set for my diamond speedstar mb video card the diamond bbs has these their baud bbs phone number is their baud bbs phone number is sorry i don t know of any ftp site that has these though i d be surprised if there wasn t one
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re more cool bmp files in article apr gmuvax gmu edu rwang gmuvax gmu edu writes hi everybody i guess my subject has said it all it is getting boring looking at those same old bmp files that came with windows so i am wondering if there is any body has some beautiful bmp file i can share or maybe somebody can tell me some ftp site for some bmp files like some scenery files some animals files etc i used to have some unfortunately i delete them all eric hmmm let s see i could upload some bmp files i have around b w and color ones but i d rather give you the fishing pole instead of the fish here it goes begginers guide to the coolest windows backgrounds step ftp to cica ftp cica indiana edu user anonymous passwd guest cd to pub pc win util desktop and get one of these wingif zip pspro zip gws zip they will scale dither and convert gifs to bmps get the index file from the win subdir too for future reference step ftp to wuarchive wustl edu or plaza aarnet edu au or archive orst edu and cd to graphics gif get the index file now gigabytes of pictures are waiting to become your desktop advice if you have a slow computer dx w mb ram make your bg b w by selecting b w dither in any of the abovementioned apps hope it helps costas malamas georgia institute of technology oit ua opinions expressed are not necessarily oit s internet ccastco prism gatech edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re using microsoft foundation classes with borland c in article qv rc fcp news cs tu berlin de make cs tu berlin de m kerkhoff writes hi all has anybody tried to compile ctrltest from the mfc samples directory after compiling the mfc libs with bwc seems to me that bwc isn t able to distinguish pointers to overloaded functions for example imagine the following overloaded functions void same name void void same name int after trying the whole day i think with bwc its impossible to take the adress of one of the above two functions and assign it to a properly defined function pointer am i right has anybody else had this problem thanx i think you may be chasing the wrong problem i don t think it is the function overloading at all i do that sort of thing all of the time in bc without a hitch the big problems i have encountered in porting mfc to bc is that fact that mfc depends on a couple of invalid c assumptions i have never gotten the entire ctrltest app to run under bc but the reason is that ms makes some bad assumptions about the order in which static global objects are initialized i e some objects are getting accessed before they are initialized the problem is in the owner draw menu code somewhere if you comment out that section all other pieces of ctrltest work fine two other major gotchas i have found using mfc under bc the cfile openflags enum uses hard coded numbers for the open mode rather than the manifest constants defined in fcntrl h which differ between msc and bc all of the mfc collection classes depend on another bad c assumption that a reference to a base object can used be in place of a reference to a derived object true for pointers not for references i am sure there are other problems along the same lines but i have not encountered them yet i have not seen mfc yet but i hope that some of these will be addressed if they are not all of ms s hype about portability to other vendor s compilers will be just that if these were my employer s opinions i wouldn t be posting them whoever said nothing lasts forever was obviously r brendler not a cubs fan mike royko spss inc chicago il
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows keeps crashing please help in article qur h qrl access digex net wild access digex com wildstrom writes in article apr oracle us oracle com ebosco us oracle com eric bosco writes from ebosco us oracle com eric bosco subject windows keeps crashing please help date fri apr gmt as the subjects says windows keeps crashing givinh me gpf on me of late it was never a very stable package but now it seems to crash every day the worst part about it is that it does not crash consistently ie i there is a way in sys ini to turn off ram parity checking unfortunately my good windows references are at home but any standard win reference will tell you how to do it if not email back to me that weird memory may be producing phony parity errors danger is if you turn checkling off you run the slight risk of data corruption due to a missed real error i had this very same problem and did work around by turning parity checking off but that only worked while i was in windows and the parity error would occur immediately after exiting windows however the problem turned out to be chip simms vs chip simms i can t use chip simms in my computer and when i replaced them the problem vanished forever
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re questions about windows nt help in article apr cfmu eurocontrol be rajiev cfmu eurocontrol be rajiev gupta writes in article c cq fc ms uky edu shan ms uky edu minghua shan writes stuff deleted does windows nt run on sun sparc server if the answer to question is yes does it run unix applications such as sas for unix is windows nt a multiuser os when will windows nt be released is there any telephone number that i can call and get more info on win nt thank you minghua shan as far as i have read win nt will be supported on intel dec alpha and the mips r series of processors only i do remember though reading a rumour about sparc support sometime in the future i am not sure what you mean by running unix applications you would have to have sas for win nt or maybe sas for win etc i have read that ms will anounce avalaibility of win nt by end of may comdex spring hope this helps rajiev gupta rajiev gupta eurocontrol cfmu disclaimer rajiev cfmu eurocontrol be rue de la loi these are my views tel b bruxelles not my companies fax belgium according to the april issue of pc magazine pg and i quote eventually windows nt is likely to be ported to every successful risc architecture powerpc and hp s pa risc are the two most likely candidates with sparc somewhat less likely because of sun s relatively strong unix software base later bill
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re moving icons kmembry viamar uucp kirk membry writes i remember reading about a program that made windows icons run away from the mouse as it moved near them does anyone know the name of this program and the ftp location probably at cica as i remember it the name of the program your looking for is called icofrite cica was where i saw it last it was quite a while ago richard calderon rcaldrn epi med miami edu university of miami school of medicine information systems computing nw st miami florida
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re wp pcf linux risc the risc means reduced instruction set computer the risc usually has small instruction set so as to reduce the circuit complex and can increase the clock rate to have a high performance you can read some books about computer architecture for more information about risc hmm not that i am an authority on risc but i clearly remember reading that the instruction set on risc cpus is rather large the difference is in addressing modes risc instruction sets are not as orthogonal is cisc there are some things you might be interested to know about today s risc processors it is true that there are fewer instructions but what is not commonly known is that this causes the size of your executables to swell so that in some cases performance is similar for larger applications as a compromise many risc processors today are actually a cross between a reduced instructions set and a complex one this is not to say that there is no future in cisc processors intel has certainly proved that what i want to know is what does this have to do with this group dave subject re wp pcf linux risc newsgroups comp unix dos under unix comp sys ibm pc misc comp sys ibm pc net comp os ms windows apps comp os ms windows misc alt uu comp os linux questions comp apps spreadsheets comp misc alt os linux comp os linux man linux references qu ud hd sunb ocs mq edu au from article qu ud hd sunb ocs mq edu au by eugene mpce mq edu au in article c o yq m csie nctu edu tw ghhwang csie nctu edu tw ghhwang writes dear friend the risc means reduced instruction set computer the risc usually has small instruction set so as to reduce the circuit complex and can increase the clock rate to have a high performance you can read some books about computer architecture for more information about risc hmm not that i am an authority on risc but i clearly remember reading that the instruction set on risc cpus is rather large the difference is in addressing modes risc instruction sets are not as orthogonal is cisc some people say it s fun but i think it s very serious eugene macadam mpce mq edu au dave siegel ds president rtd systems and networking inc president uofaz hardware and computing knowledge society hacks dsiegel cs arizona edu dsiegel hacks arizona edu dsiegel rtd com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows speaker sound driver is there an ftp site where i can get the ms speaker sound driver there s a sound exe file that claims to be the driver but i m suspicious since it s not a drv file thanks alec lee
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re window start up position for app how in apr ucsu colorado edu hayesj rintintin colorado edu hayes james michael jr writes how do you set up an app to give its window a default start up position and size try sizeit zip from ftp cica indiana edu in the directory ftp pub pc win desktop it s freeware also noticed there a program called sizer zip which from the description looks like it also does what you want hope this helps david white engineer goon fan son of my dad internet davidw auck irl cri nz fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows slower using dos adam benson mt pearl nf adamb garfield cs mun ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows speaker sound driver in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu alee mnemosyne cs du edu alec lee writes is there an ftp site where i can get the ms speaker sound driver there s a sound exe file that claims to be the driver but i m suspicious since it s not a drv file thats the file tony annese claebaur shell portal com or claebaur cup portal com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	save my hard disk allocation error cross linked hi while running the ms quick c compiler in a dos window under windows this evening i got a program has violated system integrity close all applications exit windows and restart your computer error i started to do this when i immediately got a serious disk error message from windows hit return to retry i did that about times and then rebooted to find that quite a few files have been corrupted somehow i am including the chkdsk output below questions is there an easy way to restore everything to working order what might be some better approaches what might have caused this does the smartdrv cache make me more vulnerable i m suspicious of hard drive caches especially when they cache data writing the straightforward approach would be to run chkdsk with the f option to fix the disk and then it looks like i would probably have to reinstall windows and a few other things thanks for your comments and suggestions brad banko ps this is a sx machine with a mb hard drive and mb of ram chkdsk output volume serial number is d errors found f parameter not specified corrections will not be written to disk c gfx vpic cvpic exe allocation error size adjusted c gfx vpic vpic txt allocation error size adjusted c gfx vpic video cfg allocation error size adjusted c gfx vpic orcpro cfg allocation error size adjusted c gfx vpic vga cfg allocation error size adjusted c game goose bird x allocation error size adjusted c winmisc adv winadv exe allocation error size adjusted lost allocation units found in chains bytes disk space would be freed c gfx vpic cvpic exe is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic geno cfg is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic tri b cfg is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic ts hi cfg is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic config doc is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic vpic txt is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic video cfg is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic defincon cfg is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic atiwondr cfg is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic geno cfg is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic oak cfg is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic hires cfg is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic aheada cfg is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic vpic doc is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic orcpro cfg is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic everx cfg is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic wait com is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic maxxon cfg is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic wait doc is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic everx cfg is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic ega cfg is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic config exe is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic readme st is cross linked on allocation unit c gfx vpic vga cfg is cross linked on allocation unit c game goose bird x is cross linked on allocation unit c windows system sound drv is cross linked on allocation unit c windows games grp is cross linked on allocation unit c windows mad bmp is cross linked on allocation unit c mage demo a kin is cross linked on allocation unit c mage demo b kin is cross linked on allocation unit c mage pkin exe is cross linked on allocation unit c winmisc games dialword exe is cross linked on allocation unit c winmisc games dialword txt is cross linked on allocation unit c winmisc adv winadv wri is cross linked on allocation unit c winmisc adv adv key is cross linked on allocation unit c winmisc adv adv rec is cross linked on allocation unit c winmisc adv freezer is cross linked on allocation unit c spart par is cross linked on allocation unit c bng mbx is cross linked on allocation unit bytes total disk space bytes in hidden files bytes in directories bytes in user files bytes available on disk bytes in each allocation unit total allocation units on disk available allocation units on disk total bytes memory bytes free brad banko dept of physics u of illinois b banko uiuc edu see one do one teach one de kb cne n lnq il
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	fortran library for ms windows hi i will like to know if there is a fortran library for ms windows v out there i have several lots of source code written by past a ps in ms fortran and recently have needed to port them to ms windows i would like to avoid a major code rewrite if possible maybe a windows library is all i need please help reply by e mail to traversmorgan swell actrix gen nz guan lye chua c travers morgan nz ltd p o box wellington nz tel fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wallpaper in windows hi there is there any utility available that will make windows randomly select one of your windows directory s bmp files as the wallpaper file nate nathan c crowell dept of materials science acrl worcester polytechnic institute e mail bigal wpi wpi edu a flower genesis supper s ready
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wincmd trouble with string variables has anyone else been playing with that wincmd utility from pc magazine if so i am having trouble concatenating string variables together and need your help for example temp path temp file ext fullpath temp say fullpath output th fullpath fullpath temp say fullpath output h file ext so it seems to be dropping the first few characters with each concatenations is it that i am out of memory i only have maybe variables total the article didn t mention memory limits email me if you have an idea or would like to see the actual source and output thanks for your help bo james bo begole begolej csgrad cs vt edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	quicken vs tobias managing your money i just got a copy of tobias managing your money v i have quicken and it s wonderful for some things but mym seems to have some features that q doesn t for example q doesn t seem to be able to handle monthly automatic deductions from a checking account you know a monthly payment that gets electronically deducted every month from my checking account or is there something that i m not doing right and q can actually do that anyway mym seems to be able to handle monthly deductions in fact it can apparently do better than that that is you can specify monthly bimonthly quarterly even yearly anyway is anyone aware of a comparitive study of the two programs or can someone just give me their own personal impressions maybe someone who has used both or maybe someone who is familiar with each could give me a capsule review anything would be greatly appreciated if i keep mym i have to pay for it and i don t know whether it s worth doing if mym is better than q of course i will keep it but if q can do everything mym can do maybe even better i won t thanks all if you post a reply please also cc me thanks
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	format a s under win dos has anyone experienced problems formatting a system floppy in the file manager under dos i get a formatted disk but when i boot with it my hard drive isn t recognized i did install doublespace also i was able to make a good working system floppy from the dos command shell no windows let me know if you ve had this problem too and if you ve heard what s going on craig silver computer science at simon fraser university silver sfu ca internet burnaby b c canada
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	exit codes dos sorry for wrong group hey now first of all sorry to post this dos question in a windows group but i m in kinda a hurry so i can t scramble to find the dos groups names anyway anyone know where i ccan find the exit codes to dos commands the manual doesn t seem to have all of them i m particularly looking for copy in order to make a move batch file such that if the file wasn t coppied properly it won t be deleted please e mail louray seas gwu edu thanks i a mickey pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how do make a ms windows grp file reflect a hd directory well i ain t always right but i ve never been wrong gd
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re diamond ss x win mouse cursor don a b lindbergh meinte am zum thema diamond ss x win mouse cursor da anybody seen mouse cursor distortion running the diamond x x da driver sorry don t know the version of the driver no indication in the da menus but it s a recently delivered gateway system am going to try the da latest drivers from diamond bbs but wondered if anyone else had seen this no not at all i m using ss x with bios and driver from januar i ve never had any problems with the mouse cursor is there already a newer driver published greetings sebastian beer gimme gummi lass die sau raus
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	setting up three user accounting system with wfwg i am a novice at best in working with pc networks and am in the process of planning a small accounting system for a small business the particular need in this case is for three machines each in a different office of the same building each having access to a windows based accounting system my first thought is to set up ms windows for workgroups on each of the machines likely a and two s along with the appropriate ethernet cards and cabling that come with the windows for workgroups starter kit one additional user kit will be necessary it then seems logical to purchase a simple multi user accounting system along the lines of daceasy or m y o b and fire it all up the will more or less act as server with a report check printer attached to it cable runs of feet will be necessary for this setup well this all seems too easy to me would any of you network gurus out there tell me if i am out of my mind here any and all suggestions however trivial will be immensely appreciated my apologies if this has been brought up before thanks john john e martin jemartin nyx cs du edu university of puget sound kent wa formerly martin ups edu seinfeldsupersonicsrushbelafleck john e martin jemartin nyx cs du edu university of puget sound kent wa formerly martin ups edu seinfeldsupersonicsbc rushdweckl
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re wp pcf linux risc in article qu ud hd sunb ocs mq edu au eugene mpce mq edu au writes in article c o yq m csie nctu edu tw ghhwang csie nctu edu tw ghhwang writes dear friend the risc means reduced instruction set computer the risc usually has small instruction set so as to reduce the circuit complex and can increase the clock rate to have a high performance you can read some books about computer architecture for more information about risc hmm not that i am an authority on risc but i clearly remember reading that the instruction set on risc cpus is rather large the difference is in addressing modes risc instruction sets are not as orthogonal is cisc some people say it s fun but i think it s very serious eugene macadam mpce mq edu au theoretically supposed to be reduced not any longer that s why everyone is arguing about risc v s cisc personally i think cisc will win out just take a look at the pentium not that i like intel architectures either but that s another story bye brian hojo lee hey excuse me miss could i have a gif of you leebr ecf toronto edu leebr eecg toronto edu try linux the best and free un x clone
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re help importing eps files into word jburke abacus bates edu jburke writes i was wondering if anyone knew how to view a eps in ms word a here are the first couple of lines if it helps ps adobe creator prowrite title tcwn orientation portrait pages pageorder ascend can any one help james burke by reading this you agree not to hold the writer responsible for any evil jburke abacus bates edu happening that may befall you at any time we had a similar problem in converting a eps file the solution was simple we changed the first line from ps adobe to ps adobe this fouled the converter the eps file only contained very simple move and draw statements mario mario veraart tno physics and electronics laboratory email rioj fel tno nl the hague the netherlands if all else fails show pretty pictures and animated videos and don t talk about performance david bailey
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows help umyin ccu umanitoba ca qing yin writes hi it s an easy question for you windows gurus i d appreciate any help we need to write an on line help for our application we don t have windows software developer s toolkit yet since we just want to build a hlp file around windows help engine i hope it won t be that complicated anyway could someone kindly give me some hints of how to build such an on line help if it does not take pages to explain or if it is complicated would you help to point out what i would need to do it vincent q yin umyin ccu umanitoba ca hi if you have developed your own windows application you must have a sdk of some sort that contains the hc exe or hc exe file to compile and generate hlp files out of rtf files rtf files are generated by a wordprocessor like word for dos or w w if this is not the solution be more specific about your application mario mario veraart tno physics and electronics laboratory email rioj fel tno nl the hague the netherlands if all else fails show pretty pictures and animated videos and don t talk about performance david bailey
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re more cool bmp files i downloaded the compuserve gif of the month a raytraced image of a golf ball next to a hole very nice x x bitmap easily converted to a windows bmp if anyone wants i could upload a copy on cica please do and let us know specifics lest i m the only one on this mickey pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how do make a ms windows grp file reflect a hd directory well i ain t always right but i ve never been wrong gd
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re wallpaper in windows in article qvpdo q i bigboote wpi edu bigal wpi wpi edu nathan charles crowell writes hi there is there any utility available that will make windows randomly select one of your windows directory s bmp files as the wallpaper file nate nate s sig there are a couple i am personally using screenpeace which is a screen saver which will also select your wallpaper from a specified directory not necessarily the windows dir let me know if you want info i ve been pretty happy with screenpeace and the latest version is not at cica but oak windows scrpc or something mickey pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how do make a ms windows grp file reflect a hd directory well i ain t always right but i ve never been wrong gd
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows hangs on dx wlieftin cs vu nl liefting w writes hello all you windows freaks out there i bought windows dutch version some time ago and run it on a i recently upgraded my computer to a dx k cache m memory m maxtor hd works real fine but not with windows when playing patience sol or minesweeper suddenly the system hangs i just can t move my mouse anymore or screen goes blank nothing further or screen goes blank computer seems to reboot but stops before reaching the end of the memory test once or maybe even twice i got a message about some illegal kernel call or something accompanied by a hex adress and a close button when pressing it the application wouldn t close though i haven t experienced this problem with other programs than these but that s mainly because i haven t really used other programs i suspect them to hang too anything known about this problem or better any patches available oh forgot to tell if in cmos ram i make the computer faster higher bus speed less wait states enable both caches etc the crash comes faster after min or so if i deliberately slow the system down slow bus speed wait states disable internal external cache no shadowing the crash comes later but comes hope anyone can help wouter hi i got a problem too with a dx vlb mb ram mb disk sometimes when i switch on the computer it starts windows dutch windows switches to x switches back to text mode and exits to dos after one or two resets the system works fine thanks patrick vu amsterdam
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	speedstar x windows enhanced mode hi i have a mhz sys based pc with m ram and a problem what is the best way to configure high memory with qemm max i have a speedstar x video card and use hyperdisk disk cache software the problem is running windows in enhanced mode and having any high memory to load stuff high note i tried as recommended to exclude the region a c ff but windows insists on starting in standard mode any suggestions dan
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows for workgroups and lan workplace flint waters uwyo edu flint waters writes now does anyone know if it is possible to use w wg and lan workplace for dos at the same time yup we re using both and they work just fine hopefully someday wfwg will communicate over lwp tcpip right now we have to load netbeui i use odi with odinsup and all works well hey sounds great does that mean that w wg works with odi i thought it uses ndis my problem is that lan workplace with all its drivers uses up most of my umbs so i d hate to have to load many more drivers to make w wg work along i read in a german computer magazine that tcp ip support for w wg is just around the corner anybody have any news about this regards richard dr richard spitz internet spitz ana med uni muenchen de edv gruppe anaesthesie tel klinikum grosshadern fax munich germany
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows for workgroups and lan workplace flint waters uwyo edu flint waters writes now does anyone know if it is possible to use w wg and lan workplace for dos at the same time yup we re using both and they work just fine hopefully someday wfwg will communicate over lwp tcpip right now we have to load netbeui i use odi with odinsup and all works well hey sounds great does that mean that w wg works with odi i thought it uses ndis my problem is that lan workplace with all its drivers uses up most of my umbs so i d hate to have to load many more drivers to make w wg work along i read in a german computer magazine that tcp ip support for w wg is just around the corner anybody have any news about this regards richard ps i possibly caused a dupe with this message if this message was spread twice outside of munich please send me a short note it would help me debug my news application dr richard spitz internet spitz ana med uni muenchen de edv gruppe anaesthesie tel klinikum grosshadern fax munich germany
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re wallpaper in windows louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis writes is there any utility available that will make windows randomly select one of your windows directory s bmp files as the wallpaper file there are a couple i am personally using screenpeace which is a if you need just to change the wallpaper then i ve written a short program in vb that does this by using systemparametersinfo function the bad news is that you need vbrun dll to run it and the dll is some kb the program is about kb the order of pictures depends on the system date and the number of bmp files in the directory so the picture remains the same if you execute the program multiple times during the same day and the number of bmps has not changed if you feel this is what you need then i could uuencode it and email it to you it is unavailable via ftp ismo k rkk inen joyl joensuu fi iak cs joensuu fi ph nglui mglw nafh cthulhu r lyeh wgah nagl fhtagn
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	utility for updating win ini and system ini i nead a utility for updating deleting adding changing ini files for windows do i find it on any ftp host svein
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re moving icons in article bp rahpbh h viamar uucp rutgers viamar kmembry writes i remember reading about a program that made windows icons run away from the mouse as it moved near them does anyone know the name of this program and the ftp location probably at cica there s a program called icon frightener included with the book stupid windows tricks by bob levitus and ed tittel addison wesley it s freeware if it s not on the net anywhere i ll happily email a copy to someone who s willing to upload it i can t upload through our internet firewall bob nichols at t bell laboratories rnichols ihlpm ih att com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows help mario veraart mveraart fel tno nl wrote umyin ccu umanitoba ca qing yin writes hi it s an easy question for you windows gurus i d appreciate any help we need to write an on line help for our application we don t have windows software developer s toolkit yet since we just want to build a hlp file around windows help engine i hope it won t be that complicated anyway could someone kindly give me some hints of how to build such an on line help if it does not take pages to explain or if it is complicated would you help to point out what i would need to do it vincent q yin umyin ccu umanitoba ca hi if you have developed your own windows application you must have a sdk of some sort that contains the hc exe or hc exe file to compile and generate hlp files out of rtf files no u can download what zip from ftp cica indiana edu this package from ms is all u need to buid simple hlp files from rich text format files rtf this package also contains dot tamplates for ms word win rtf files are generated by a wordprocessor like word for dos or w w if this is not the solution be more specific about your application mario mario veraart tno physics and electronics laboratory email rioj fel tno nl the hague the netherlands if all else fails show pretty pictures and animated videos and don t talk about performance david bailey
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	truetype font mix up times cyrillic hi i m having a problem with truetype fonts in windows i have installed the cyrillic fonts i found on cica and now a strange thing happens sometimes windows uses cyrillic when its supposed to use times roman examples the pc tools backup version has one line of cyrillic text in its opening banner the next to last line importing a word for windows text written in times into wp also results in cyrillic does anyone have an idea where to look for the problem thanks reiner suikat institute for flight guidance fl g gandalf fl bs dlr de german aerospace research establishment dlr
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	top windows applications hello everybody i am searching for business information of windows application to create a top of most used wordprocessors spreadsheets drawing programs schedulers and fax programs etc please mail me all your information or references i will summaries the results on this media thank you in advance anton de ruiter digital equipment corporation workgroup products wgp objectworks obw ing anton de ruiter mba software product manager post office box ae apeldoorn the netherlands oude apeldoornseweg nr apeldoorn the netherlands mail hlde ruiter a dtn location apd f a internet aruit idca tds philips nl uucp mcsun philapd aruit phone business phone private fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re quicken vs tobias managing your money in article apr twg com q twg com michael wiesenberg wrote i just got a copy of tobias managing your money v i have quicken and it s wonderful for some things but mym seems to have some features that q doesn t for example q doesn t seem to be able to handle monthly automatic deductions from a checking account you know a monthly payment that gets electronically deducted every month from my checking account or is there something that i m not doing right and q can actually do that hi i have never used mym so i can not help you with the comparison of the two products i am however a devoted quicken user and i can tell you how to set up the weekly monthly quarterly yearly transactions first use the memorize feature ctrl m to record the recurring transactions next define a transaction group which uses these memorized transactions and specify the frequency that it should be used i e monthly quicken will can not automatically make the transactions for you but now all you do is recall the group and all of the individual transactions will be entered at once additionally if you are using the bill minder it will remind you when each transaction group is due for example you could have three transaction groups one for payments at the beginning of the month middle of the month and one for quarterly payments i hope this helps mike
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	videoblaster pc speaker software that comes together with the videoblaster is designed to work together with the soundblaster from the same manufacturer since i do not own a soundblaster is there a possibility to use the pc speaker driver to play audio files for the videoblaster avi audio video interleave files i think what i should have is a device driver for the media player that controls the pc speaker driver instead of the soundblaster card something like mcispkr drv has anybody heard of such a driver or am i on the wrong track any information on this appreciated please send e mail since i don t watch this group regularly v joerg meyer e mail j meyer informatik uni kl de o o university of kaiserslautern germany ooo u ooo this space for rent
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	c link segment problem calling run time functions i have a small windows program which i can not get to work the program looks vaguely like this char f int winmain lstrcpy lpstr f hello long far pascal wndproc lstrcpy lpstr f hello i am using large model under windows after linking without errors the rc program said sorting preload segments and resources into fast load section copying segment bytes rc fatal error rw segment and its relocation information is too large for load optimization make the segment loadoncall or rerun rc using the k switch if the segment must be preloaded using the k switch seems to interfere with the proper function of the second lstrcpy call can anybody explain what is going on and or how to fix it thanks pugsley dpugsle nswc wo nswc navy mil
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re utility for updating win ini and system ini in article apr news uit no sp odin nosubdomain nodomain svein pedersen writes i nead a utility for updating deleting adding changing ini files for windows do i find it on any ftp host svein unless i am completely misunderstanding you try using either notepad or sysedit exe found in your system subdirectory to edit you ini files the sysedit exe program is cool because it automatically opens you win ini system ini autoexec bat and config sys files to be edited drewster am kimbark uchicago edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mathcad vs ndw i just got off the phone with mathsoft technical service they are now admitting a problem of unknown nature with maple and norton desktop for windows they have no clue at this time and are collecting configuration information on the systems which exhibit the problem anyone having problems loading the maple solver in mathcad under ndw shoud call technical support at they made no schedule promices but are actively working on the problem in the meantime the workaround is to provide a configuration selection in autoexec bat to use progman yuk pew whenever you plan to use the maple solver and ndw otherwise i am using norton be to place a little menu on the screen with a second timeout to auto boot ndw david a fuess dir center for eecs phone fax lawrence livermore national laboratory
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	diamond speedstar x driver bug since swapping out my generic vga card for a diamod speedstar x i have noticed two new problems if i create a windowed ms dos session mode when the text starts to scroll rather than printing characters it starts to print horizontal lines that spill out to the desktop and trash the entire display ctrl alt del terminates the dos window and restores the desktop after a short time in ncd s pc x remote for windows all characters displayed on the desktop are changed to be unreadable i am unable to restore without rebooting these are in both and color x drivers large and small fonts dos win emm and smartdrv installed i like the speed of the card and have had no other problems any ideas thanks steve chesney slc catherine cim cdc com metaphase technology inc voice north lexington avenue fax arden hills mn
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	trident cl x driver please excuse if faq but new trident cl based card claims to have x support drivers with card indicate several x drivers on diskette windows does not make all drivers on diskette available to configuration dialog box any suggestion thanx please e mail dfeldman uswest com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	q change icons forever hi anyone knows how can i change an icon forever and ever i mean not only in the program manager thanks in advance alejandro cifuentes h acifuent isluga puc cl
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re utility for updating win ini and system ini in article apr news uit no sp odin nosubdomain nodomain svein pedersen writes i nead a utility for updating deleting adding changing ini files for windows do i find it on any ftp host svein in windows there is a built in called sysedit exe that is just what you need windows i don t know
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re color or monochrome walther i d have a look at the maximum resolution the combination of the video card and screen would have without flickering i d only suggest using the color screen if it does without flickering if this is not too small for your tastes at a personally i d prefer the mono screen as i always have quite a few windows open if you only run one program at a time or rarely switch maybe the color surplus is worth trading in the smaller size if you want to develop programs you will always have to check the colors i used a mono screen worst of both worlds and was surprised how the colors looked i choose on a color screen regards olaf winkelhake
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ati ultra pro confirmation i have heard many things about the ati ultra pro card some have been positive but most are negative could people please confirm these i am interested in the eisa version in particular the card does not work in a system with m ram the card works in a m system with some switches set but it is much slower the card is interlaced in its bit true colour modes the latest build drivers still do not work in many cases this card is the fastest full colour card for the money this card is the greatest thing since sliced bread thanks for your feedback i will summarize al alan walford eos systems inc vancouver b c canada tel aew eosvcr wimsey bc ca or uunet wimsey bc ca eosvcr aew
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	workgroup questions conven ram and licensing i would be very appreciative if someone would answer a few questions about windows for workgroups i currently have novell netware lite which does not work with windows very well and is a conventional memory hog ver i am considering moving all our machines to w wg q how much conventional ram does w wg use over and above the driver for the network card q if i have a novell ne card are the lsl and ipx drivers still needed q does w wg do a license check over the network to ensure each machine is running its own licenced copy of w wg note i do not want to break the license agreement and i will buy a copy of w wg for each of our machines it is just that i would like to try it out first to see if it meets our needs returning one opened copy is much easier than returning n opened copies q if you buy the upgrade to windows for w wg does it replace all of win as you install it or does it depend on current win files q if i install windows nt on my server when it comes out will i have any troubles with the w wg machines when i started this message i was going to ask only questions but i got carried away i ll stop now i look forward to your replies al alan walford eos systems inc vancouver b c canada tel aew eosvcr wimsey bc ca or uunet wimsey bc ca eosvcr aew
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	serial printing hi we ve been having problems on a few setups when printing to a serial printer dmp or laser i have used works and windows write the output is ok from dos and if i send plain text output but anything fancy garbles or just doesn t output the exception is outputting to a lserjet which appears to be fast enough receiving data not to bother about handshaking messages i m sure i m not alone in this i ve tried most of the print network manager options i can think of anyone had similar problems they ve cured and would like to tell me bout it thanks john atherton
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re quicken vs tobias managing your money in article apr twg com q twg com michael wiesenberg writes anyway is anyone aware of a comparitive study of the two programs or can someone just give me their own personal impressions maybe pc magazine january had a review of several personal finance management programe as did pc computing january pc world december also had articles about quicken and managing your money i can email you copies of these articles if you can t find them at your library i ve been using managing your money for several years and i have several friends who use quicken though i ve not used it myself my overall impression is that quicken is a financial accounts manager while managing your money will help you more completely manage your finances here are some features that i believe managing your money and quicken share the ability to keep records for each of your financial accounts checking savings charge cash or brokerage you can reconcile your account statements with the records the program keeps the ability to make a budget and track your spending against that budget a checkfree module which will allow you to use the checkfree bill paying service to pay your bills via your modem the ability to print checks on your printer the ability to keep loan records and set up automatic loan payments the ability to import stock quotations to keep your brokerage accounts up to date i know managing your money can do this automatically via modem quicken probably can as well but i m not sure about it the ability to export tax information to popular tax preparation programs here are some features that i believe managing your money has that quicken does not a tax prediction module this looks at your accounts and budget to predict your tax liability for the coming year it s usefull to fine tune your withholding so uncle sam doesn t get his due too early an insurance and vital records module this is a place to keep records of your insurance policies as well as other vital records it can also compute your life expectancy a financial analysis module this computes compound interest effects of inflation loan payments term or interest yield to maturity for bonds savings account yields days between dates and loan amortization schedules it also has functions to help you decide whether to refinance your mortgage whether you can afford a particular home whether a particular rental property is a good investment whether you should buy lease or rent and whether a particular investment s cash flow is adequate for your situation this module can also help you plan for retirement and for helping your kids with their tuition a net worth module this is a place to record all your assets and liabilities your net worth can be computed from this information any assets or liabilities recorded in other modules are automatically included here a desk module this includes a small word processor a card file you can use to store names addresses phone numbers and other vital information about friends and associates a perpetual calander a rudimentary calculator a to do list a reminder list an appointment list and a place to record your phone calls for those who need to track such things your appointments reminders and to do list can be made to display automatically when you start the program there are probably some things listed above that quicken has but i m almost sure that quicken doesn t do everything i ve listed if i m wrong i m sure hordes of quicken devotees will flame me to a crisp one thing that quicken has that managing your money does not yet have is a windows version meca software is rumored to be working on a windows version of managing your money for release late this year i hope this information is of use to you i ve found managing your money to be a very usefull program for keeping my financial records on the other hand i know many people who are equally as happy with quicken if quicken has all the features you need or want i d go with it if you find any of the managing your money features that quicken doesn t have to be useful i think it s well worth the price
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mathcad swap file i have mb of memory on my sx i have been running windows without a swap file for several months will mathcad be happy with this or insist on a swap file
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re is ms windows a mature os in article cyen ponder jesse writes hi have you used mac system x or x if the answer is positive you would know if ms windows is a mature os this is silly is unix a mature os depends on who you ask and how you define mature system is if anything less mature than windows days ago people doubted that ms windows is not a real os i can see why they have such question ms windows confuses many people microsoft simulated mac but it did a lousy job for example you can not create hierarchy groups there is no way to create a group in a group if you know how please tell me so why do you need something like behierarchic to create groups under the apple menu everyone knows that apple menu items are a ripoff of the program manager if you want a hierarchic program launcher there are lots available uncomplete documentation it s not easy to find the reason why causes an unpredictable error and this is easy on a mac give me a break having spent hours moving system extensions around and restarting the mac to see why a certain app crashes all the time i find this laughable group deleting file deleting after deleting a group users have to use file manager to delete files but if users forget to delete some related files the disk will be full of nonsense files oh great ever hear of aliases wonder why apple implemented them share problem once you create two windows doing compilation and editing in some language w o good editor there will be a sharing problem you just can not open or save the program if it is loaded it makes sense to prevent from saving but not opening eh i don t follow it s by no means easy to satisfy everybody but if microsoft want to keep their reputations they should evaluate the user interface more carefully before products distribute why is it that i find the mac desktop incredibly annoying whenever i use it no flame please yeah right you post flame bait yet ask for no flames iskandar taib the only thing worse than peach ala internet ntaib silver ucs indiana edu frog is frog ala peach bitnet ntaib iubacs
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re utility for updating win ini and system ini in article apr midway uchicago edu am midway uchicago edu writes unless i am completely misunderstanding you try using either notepad or sysedit exe found in your system subdirectory to edit you ini files you can add sysedit regedit to a program group they are windows programs the sysedit exe program is cool because it automatically opens you win ini system ini autoexec bat and config sys files to be edited is it possible to get it to load other ini files drewster am kimbark uchicago edu e mail un x oddjob oz plymouth edu vms andys psc plymouth edu disclaimer any end user software that provides no avenue for user of the week modification or programmability is not user friendly
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re ati ultra pro confirmation in article fn razbbh h eosvcr wimsey bc ca aew eosvcr wimsey bc ca alan walford writes i have heard many things about the ati ultra pro card some have been positive but most are negative could people please confirm these i am interested in the eisa version in particular the card does not work in a system with m ram the higher memory limits apply to isa cards only as far as i know the vlb and eisa version should have no problems the card works in a m system with some switches set but it is much slower again the memory aperture need only be disabled if you have more than m ram eisa and vlb or m isa m should not be a problem for you the card is interlaced in its bit true colour modes nope i can use x at hz bit and x at hz bit all non interlaced the latest build drivers still do not work in many cases they aren t perfect but are much improved i don t recall the last time which i had to leave mach mode ati gup mode and switch to or vga mode due to software incompatibility this card is the fastest full colour card for the money it s quite fast but whether or not its the fastest is open to debate this card is the greatest thing since sliced bread i like it daniel matthew coleman internet dcoleman utxvms cc utexas edu dcoleman ccwf cc utexas edu the university of texas at austin decnet utxvms dcoleman electrical computer engineering bitnet dcoleman utxvms bitnet
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re mathcad swap file in article apr ncar ucar edu baseball catch the fever scd ucar edu gregg walters writes i have mb of memory on my sx i have been running windows without a swap file for several months will mathcad be happy with this or insist on a swap file i just got mathcad and the manual is not clear on the matter on page at least megabytes of memory all memory about k should be configured as xms at least megabytes of virtual memory common sense suggests that you should be able to run it but the new mathcad is kinda kooky and thus is not subject to the laws of common sense dan daniel matthew coleman internet dcoleman utxvms cc utexas edu dcoleman ccwf cc utexas edu the university of texas at austin decnet utxvms dcoleman electrical computer engineering bitnet dcoleman utxvms bitnet
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re gatewaying microsoft mail workgroups via we here at utah state university cooperative extension have been using w wg for a while now we wanted to talk to the internet with the mail package so we got the smtp gateway you also need a tcp ip transport package on top of that which is utterly stupid but that s what they require to get the smtp gateway to work you need a dedicated pc for the gateway and if you are looking at remote access you need another dedicated pc for the remote mail stuff we do not have the remote mail going but you indicate that that is what you want to do there is a glitch somewhere in the system though i don t know if it is ms mail the gateway or the vax here on campus that is choking in the mail that is sent the scenario is this the outgoing mail goes to a unix system which then routes the mail where it needs to go if that mail is routed to the vax the vax has problems some times receiving the mail most messages do get through this way except if someone has there mail on the vax forwarded to some other location that is the main gotcha where ever the mail is forwarded to that person gets a message header then a message saying boudary error garbage code stuff if you can stay away from sending to a vax you are ok the system people of course say that the vax is not the problem the gateway is probably the problem if anyone wants to get help it is only for one support call until problem is worked out phooey to that i say i am looking vigorously for a better idea if you go forward on any of this and find out anything knew please drop me a note anyone the next itteration is supposed to have tcp ip built in they say the netxt itteration of w wg good luck wes james email wesj extsparc agsci usu edu utah state university cooperative extension systems specialist umc voice logan ut fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re is ms windows a mature os in article c snbs j h usenet ucs indiana edu comp os ms windows advocacy writes you can not create hierarchy groups there is no way to create a group in a group if you know how please tell me get norton desktop put groups within groups groups on the desktop icons on the desktop etc chris ruckman ruckman oasys dt navy mil this sig brought to you by hull structures acoustics code your local chevrolet bottler carderock division nswc
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	pc tcp onpredir with windows hello we are having troubles using the pc tcp onpredir printer redirection program with lpr support with the windows print manager the onpredir simply waits an do only the capture till the end of the windows session while after some printer inactivity it should start the printing does anybody uses this two programs together thanks zsolt zsolt bagoly dept of atomic physics eotvos university budapest hungary e mail zsolt hercules elte hu eltenet bagoly ludens elte hu eltenet internet
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	atm i ve been reading with much confusion about whether or not to use atmanager lately all the packages i ve been buying have all included atmanager as a bonus i do some desktop publishing using pagemaker and coreldraw coreldraw comes with a nifty laser disk that contains over diff types add that to the ttfonts that come with win and you have a decent amount of fonts i print my creations out on an hp postcript at dpi resolution with the resolution enhancement technology and well i get some darn good copies so good that there isn t any diff whether or not atmanager is turned on or not is it worth it to run atm at all especially with these better printer technologies and tt avdean
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	more diamond ss x has anyone experienced a faint shadow at all resolutions using this card is only in windows i have replaced card and am waiting on latest drivers also have experienced general protection fault errors in wspdpsf drv on winword tools option menu and in winfax setup i had a ati ultra but was getting genral protection fault errors in an spss application these card manufactures must have terrible quality control to let products on the market with so many bugs what a hassle running on gateway dx thx dave l
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	x windows for windows are there any x window servers that can run under ms windows i only know of deskview but have not seen it in action are there any others thanks in advance phil pmw lehigh edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re wp pcf linux risc in article c o yq m csie nctu edu tw ghhwang csie nctu edu tw ghhwang writes dear friend the risc means reduced instruction set computer the risc usually has small instruction set so as to reduce the circuit complex and can increase the clock rate to have a high performance you can read some books about computer architecture for more information about risc risc used to mean reduced instruction set computer true they still use the same acronym but only to be familiar what risc really means is a recently designed cpu in general most risc cpus are like this a large number or more of general purpose registers a fixed instruction size usually bits an instruction may make only one memory reference memory references must be aligned there are delayed branches branch after the next instruction or a target prediction bit probably will won t branch instructions may complete out of order relative to the instruction stream richard krehbiel richk grebyn com os will do for me until amigados for the comes along
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re utility for updating win ini and system ini sorry i did nt tell exactly what i need i need a utility for automatic updating deleting adding changing of ini files for windows the program should run from dos batchfile or the program run a script under windows i will use the utility for updating the win ini and other files on meny pc s do i find it on any ftp host svein
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re how do i quickly switch between windows screen resolutions in hydra gatech edu ccastco prism gatech edu constantinos malamas writes in article c qlr djl cbnewsl cb att com slg slgsun att com the idealistic cynic writes can someone out there tell me how to switch window s screen resolution quickly and easily i know that i can go back into install to do it take a look at ftp cica indiana edu at pub pc win util misc for a program caleld vswitch zip it s as close to want you want as you can get in win i think george is referring to switch zip in the ftp pub pc win drivers video directory description reads switcher windows video mode switcher david white engineer goon fan son of my dad internet davidw auck irl cri nz fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re ati ultra pro drivers bad ati ultra in article apr cvdv mayo edu fisk cvdv mayo edu tom fisk d stm writes in article c jldc hl news cso uiuc edu jroberts ux cso uiuc edu robertson writes does anybody know the ftp site with the latest windows drivers for the ati gup thanks the latest driver release is and can be found at ftp cica indiana edu in the pub pc win directory structure as pro zip i checked with ati s bbs last nite and there were no releases past we have the ati local bus card and i noticed that i get garbage around the edges of a window when i move it has anybody else noticed this also i have the local bus card also and don t have any such problems with it now but this is the second card i ve gotten the first card didn t work in vga mode correctly maybe they still have some quality control problems i would suggest checking with ati i went through the vendor i bought the card from since the problem showed up immediately i never was able to get through to ati s technical support number i sure like the way the card performs though i have the mb ati ultra pro local bus and it is fast even in x x bpp mode cheers phil tom thomas b fisk internet fisk mayo edu mayo clinic if you don t know where voice first street sw you re going you ll never fax mail stop d stm get there rochester mn philip carmack pcarmack kpc com kubota pacific computers inc
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	running c exe under windows preface i am a novice user at best to the windows environment i am trying to execute a ms c executable program which accesses a btrieve database to build an ascii file when i execute it under windows the screen goes blank and my pc locks up the only way for me to return is to reset the machine does anyone have any insight on what i may have to do in order for the program to correctly under windows by the way it runs fine in dos system gateway dx ati graphics ultra card x any help would be greatly appreciated rodger
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win font with macrons greetings from green new zealand we are looking for a windows font that will allow macrons a hypen over vowels in both upper and lower cases this is so we can use maori characters in windows applications thanks in advance stuart inglis email directly to tetaka waikato ac nz would be the prefered method of contact
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re borland s paradox offer in article cvbnetprime com tbelmont feds prime com tom belmonte x writes i am considering buying borland s paradox for windows since i would like to use a database with windows i don t have use one yet for both work home use i would like to advantage of borland s until april offer if this package is everything that borland claims it to be so i was wondering has anybody used this and or have any opinions yes and it s pretty much what they claim i haven t had time to try all of it considering the price even if you decide you don t like it it should be saleable over the next months for what you have in it once the price goes up all in all it s very serviceable and in my humble opinion more powerful than access
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re more cool bmp files in article apr gmuvax gmu edu rwang gmuvax gmu edu john wang writes hi everybody i guess my subject has said it all it is getting boring looking at those same old bmp files that came with windows so i am wondering if there is any body has some beautiful bmp file i can share or maybe somebody can tell me some ftp site for some bmp files like some scenery files some animals files etc i used to have some unfortunately i delete them all anyway could me give me some help please in response to a different kinda wallpaper here s what i use i think the original gif whatever was called not real the artist name and logo is in the lower right corner you will need vga i think and i have this sized for x color screens use this in your windows directory and do not tile it hope you enjoy
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re wp pcf linux risc leebr ecf toronto edu lee brian writes in article qu ud hd sunb ocs mq edu au eugene mpce mq edu au writes in article c o yq m csie nctu edu tw ghhwang csie nctu edu tw ghhwang writes dear friend the risc means reduced instruction set computer the risc usually has small instruction set so as to reduce the circuit complex and can increase the clock rate to have a high performance you can read some books about computer architecture for more information about risc hmm not that i am an authority on risc but i clearly remember reading that the instruction set on risc cpus is rather large the difference is in addressing modes risc instruction sets are not as orthogonal is cisc the original riscs had small instruction sets and simple ones the idea was that a every instruction should be completable in a single clock cycle and b to have no microcode and c extensive pipelines a few comparisons from patterson reduced instruction set computers cacm v cpu year instructions microcode ibm kb dec vax kb ibm ucb risc stanford mips while researching for the vlsi vax dec discovered that of the vax microcode is there to support of the instruction set which accounted for a mere of all instructions executed the uvax subsetted the architecture onto a single chip and used a software emulator for these very complex instructions the full vlsi uvax included the entire instruction set was times more copmlex but only ranm faster cpu chips microcode transistors uvax k k vlsi uvax k k real deryk barker computer science dept camosun college victoria b c email dbarker camosun bc ca phone
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	norton desktop smartcan vs norton util s ep i just purchased the norton desktop for windows and i also have norton utilities when i installed ndw it wanted to rem out the line that installed ep ep on and the command to invoke the image utility it replaced the image command with a new image command that invokes the version of image that came with ndw this makes sense as presumably the image version with ndw is newer than the one with nu it did not however install smartcan in the autoexec now two questions will nu use the image data saved by the newer version of image invoked i e are the two version of image compatable will erase protect use the info from smartcan and vice versa i use both dos and windows and i want to make sure that when i erase files in either environment they are going to be protected from the experiments i have run the two programs erase protect and smart erase don t use each others info i currently have both ep and smartcan loading within my autoexec and i don t see any conflicts fyi norton desktop for windows version norton util s version thanks for any help
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	character missing in ttf word c doesn t show the period centred character to indicate spaces if i use the ttfonts from coreldraw our editors need to be able to see how many spaces are in text but the character displayed is a large hollow box they overlap each other and characters on each side which is useless i believe the character used by w w is the period centred this character shows up with the windows charmap display as the hollow box which tends to confirm this i have edited the corel font with fontmonger and changing the font graphics for the character makes no difference to the font output in charmap or w w altering the paragraph or cedilla does alter their font graphics displayed however is the w w character used to indicate spaces the period centred character has anyone been able to get this character displayed from a coreldraw ttf russ sharp russ deakin edu au ph fax deakin university school of engineering technology geelong australia
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows help in apr fel tno nl mveraart fel tno nl mario veraart writes umyin ccu umanitoba ca qing yin writes hi it s an easy question for you windows gurus i d appreciate any help we need to write an on line help for our application we don t have windows software developer s toolkit yet since we just want to build a hlp file around windows help engine i hope it won t be that complicated anyway could someone kindly give me some hints of how to build such an on line help if it does not take pages to explain or if it is complicated would you help to point out what i would need to do it vincent q yin umyin ccu umanitoba ca hi if you have developed your own windows application you must have a sdk of some sort that contains the hc exe or hc exe file to compile and generate hlp files out of rtf files rtf files are generated by a wordprocessor like word for dos or w w you do not need the sdk what you need and can get free are location ftp cica indiana edu index pub pc win index first get pub pc win uploads what zip m this contains the help compiler among other things it is free from microsoft then get these i think these are free too dir pub pc win programr files hag zip whag zip wfwhlp zip these are shareware dir pub pc win util files hwab zip qdhelp zip qdtool zip dir pub pc win winword files drhelpev zip macros for word to convert doc to hlp files shiva shenoy e mail shenoy iastate edu black dept of aeem isu ames ia office shiva shenoy e mail shenoy iastate edu black dept of aeem isu ames ia office
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	losing dark colors of my icons here is an annoying problem whenever i save an icon which contains dark colors like dark red or dark purple these colors are converted to the bright colors this happens with every icon editor including the image editor that came with sdk i don t have this problem with bmp files either only with ico files or icon libraries the problem is with the icon colormap field in the icon file header checking the file with a binary editor i can see that the masks are ok by editing the colormap manually copying from another icon that i didn t edit i can fix the colors does anybody know what may be causing this problem thanks sadun anik u of illinois at urbana champaign center for reliable and high performance computing e mail anik crhc uiuc edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re utility for updating win ini and system ini sp odin fna no svein pedersen writes sorry i did nt tell exactly what i need i need a utility for automatic updating deleting adding changing of ini files for windows the program should run from dos batchfile or the program run a script under windows i will use the utility for updating the win ini and other files on meny pc s do i find it on any ftp host svein well in the latest windows magazine there is an advertisement for a program that will help you uninstall windows apps from your harddisk uninstaller but it can be used to update a network but only for deleting not adding or changing their ini files uninstaller by microhelp inc i am also looking for an ini updater for my pc network and so far without any luck so for the time being i have been pushing dos and it s batch language to its limit look into dos s i am assumming that dos has the same command maybe even more or less improved replace command i use this to update our users personal files with a master set in a batch file that is run everytime they invoke windows this basically overwrites their color schemes but does what i need it to do not neat but does the job i m looking for a better solution though mike just relaying what i know a not for profit service mike bendtsen msbendts mtu edu elm st apt ccli senior technical consultant hancock mi michigan technological university
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re is ms windows a mature os why is it that i find the mac desktop incredibly annoying whenever i use it because you are uptight many computer literate people see advantages in each system you act like a mac ate your cat lighten up
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re mathcad swap file baseball catch the fever scd ucar edu gregg walters writes i have mb of memory on my sx i have been running windows without a swap file for several months will mathcad be happy with this or insist on a swap file presumeably you mean without a permanent swap file if windows needs a swap file it will upo and create one if a permanent one doesn t exist permanent is generally faster though i don t know why mathcad wouldn t be happy with either type ver is and so should any program conforming to the win specification
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows slower using dos not on my system frank calloway
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re icons gone in a previous article hsano cs ulowell edu hitoshi sano says i m not sure if this is the proper place to post this the icons on win program manager have all dissapeared and i need to restore them the files all seem to be there on the disk and i think there must be a better way than re installing everything thanks for any help hmmmmm you know this happened to me also i am not sure what caused it i think there might have been a system error and dumped windows i came back and all was well except no groups program manager was empty all the grp files were in the directory i had to remake the groups with the new and group selection all the icons and files inside the groups were still there and working fine just the groups had gone out of program manager strange c ya artin this communication is sent by artin university of arizona tucson ak cleveland freenet edu mlinsenb ccit arizona edu mlinsenb arizvms death has been dead for about years follow the king of kings
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re atm in article r jq af network ucsd edu adean weber ucsd edu anthony v dean writes i ve been reading with much confusion about whether or not to use atmanager lately all the packages i ve been buying have all included atmanager as a bonus adobe has been doing this for years i do some desktop publishing using pagemaker and coreldraw coreldraw comes with a nifty laser disk that contains over diff types add that to the ttfonts that come with win and you have a decent amount of fonts i print my creations out on an hp postcript at dpi resolution with the resolution enhancement technology and well i get some darn good copies so good that there isn t any diff whether or not atmanager is turned on or not is it worth it to run atm at all especially with these better printer technologies and tt there are some fonts that are only available as ps fonts if you have a ps font that you want to use use atm otherwise it is a waste of system resources personally i use both mike lipsie work mlipsie ca merl com mitsubishi electronic research laboratory home mikel dosbears uucp
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re diamond ss x has anyone experienced a faint shadow at all resolutions using this card is only in windows i have replaced card and am waiting on latest drivers also have experienced general protection fault errors in wspdpsf drv on winword tools option menu and in winfax setup i had a ati ultra but was getting genral protection fault errors in an spss application these card manufactures must have terrible quality control to let products on the market with so many bugs what a hassle running on gateway dx thx dave l i have used both version drivers for win and the new drivers i have had none of these problems no gpf s at all i have a feeling that your problems are not with the card or drivers the ati ultra drivers are considered some of the most reliable on the market and the ss x ones seem quite good as well maybe you should check bios problems in your gateway i know a few people with gateway dx s and all of them have found some problem or other with compatibility especially with graphics the only gpf s i have ever had can be directly attributable to using abusing applications i even got the newest drivers from diamond when people started complaining i still only have one small problem with them and it is that the hardware cursor is slightly jumpy during writes reads to the swap file greg bishop
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	winqvtnet with ndis on token ring is it possible to use winqvt net on a machine that uses ndis to connect to a token ring i tried it with older versions but got an invalid packet class error or something the like regards wim van holder katholieke universiteit leuven tel departement t e w fax dekenstraat b leuven e mail wimvh liris tew kuleuven ac be belgium fdbaq cc kuleuven ac be
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	trumpet for windows other news readers i m looking for a decent windows news reader i ve given up on winvn since it doesn t work very well with the winsock dll of the ibm tcp ip for dos what the status of trumpet for windows will it use the windows sockets i liked it in dos but had to abandon it since i started using ndis to access our token ring results in invalid class error bye wim van holder katholieke universiteit leuven tel departement t e w fax dekenstraat b leuven e mail wimvh liris tew kuleuven ac be belgium fdbaq cc kuleuven ac be
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	diamond viper hi folks at the end of the summer i m planning on getting a new computer dx or dx and have been poking around in computer shopper anyway i saw the ads for the diamond viper local bus mb memory million winmarks and was wondering if anyone has had any experience with it good bad not worth the money etc any information at all would be nice also a few other questions anyone know of a good cheap x ni monitor and what is a good cd rom drive that meets mpc standards and is controlled via scsi how about a mb tape drive on scsi thanks for your time brent casavant bcasavan mailhost ecn uoknor edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	proteced mode i m looking for information how w nt uses proteced mode the hw support
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re utility for updating win ini and system ini in article apr oz plymouth edu oddjob oz plymouth edu andrew c stoffel writes in article apr midway uchicago edu am midway uchicago edu writes unless i am completely misunderstanding you try using either notepad or sysedit exe found in your system subdirectory to edit you ini files you can add sysedit regedit to a program group they are windows programs the sysedit exe program is cool because it automatically opens you win ini system ini autoexec bat and config sys files to be edited is it possible to get it to load other ini files no when the program is run it loads configuration files autoexec bat config sys win ini and system ini there is no open entry on the file menu you can only edit these four files if you need to edit some other program s ini file use notepad or some other ascii editor i wonder whether microsoft intended for sysedit to be used or if it was just a holdover from the testing period and they forgot to take it out the reason i think this is because there is absolutely no mention in the manuals about this program and there is no online help for it just an about entry under the file menu the program looks like something that was intended for internal use only it s kind of a shame though it would have made a nice multi file replacement for notepad daniel silevitch dmsilev athena mit edu massachusetts institute of technology
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re trumpet for windows other news readers in article apr liris tew kuleuven ac be wimvh liris tew kuleuven ac be wim van holder writes what the status of trumpet for windows will it use the windows sockets i liked it in dos but had to abandon it since i started using ndis to access our token ring results in invalid class error while i do not speak for peter tattam i am fairly sure he is planning a winsock compliant version while this will definitely not make the initial public release of wintrumpet it will follow on shortly thereafter currently wintrumpet is in very late beta it looks like an excellent product with several features beyond the dos version wintrumpet supports the trumpet tcp novell lwp and there is also a direct to packet driver version that some people are using with the dis pkt shim ashok ashok aiyar mail ashok biochemistry cwru edu department of biochemistry tel cwru school of medicine cleveland ohio fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	telix problem when i use telix or kermit in win or use telix after exiting windows to dos telix can not find the serial port if you have some ideas on how to solve this problem or where i can find further information send me email or send it to the news group thanks dale erickson dericks plains nodak edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	black screen of death windows novell hi there we are running a node token ring with windows and novell every once in a while we run into the black screen of death a phrase coined by robert x cringely in a recent infoworld column basically sometimes when you quit windows the screen goes black and you get a nice little flashing cursor in the top left corner of your screen also sometimes when you exit to dos the same effect occurs cringely hints that microsoft and or novell has a patch for windows virtual interrupt controller that may solve this neither company seems to know what i am talking about when i call them has anyone else noticed this phenomenon is there a fix for it any response is welcome peter sweeney psweeney miavx acs muohio edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	telix problem when i use telix or kermit in win or use telix after exiting windows to dos telix can not find the serial port if you have some ideas on how to solve this problem or where i can find further information send me email or send it to the news group thanks dale erickson dericks plains nodak edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	serial printing in windows i am getting garbled output when serial printing thru windows works etc this has occurred on several systems and goes if a laserjet is used i suspect that there is no need for handshaking in this case due to the capacity memory speed of it there is no problem printing from dos are there any obvious tweaks i m missing i m sure its not just me with this problem thanks for reading john atherton
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows speaker sound driver in article c req eq unix portal com claebaur shell portal com tony s annese writes in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu alee mnemosyne cs du edu alec lee writes is there an ftp site where i can get the ms speaker sound driver there s a sound exe file that claims to be the driver but i m suspicious since it s not a drv file thats the file to clarify a little more sound exe is a self expanding archive which contains the driver which is actually called speaker drv i think ray
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mathcad swap file reposting and summarizing for your information or additional comment this is long i have mb of memory on my sx mhz an intel math coprocessor and a mb hard drive with mb free no compression i have been running mathcad under windows in enhanced mode with a mb ram drive mb mb smart drive and no swap file permanent or temporary for several months i am interested in the faster mathcad but i am concerned about reported swap file requirements and the legitimacy of mathsoft s claim about increased speed to sx users will mathcad run without a swap file or insist that i use a swap file so far in response to a less detailed description of my setup or in unrelated postings the more informed answers on the net or by e mail appear to be by fuess llnl gov david a fuess according to mathsoft no mathcad uses the swap file extensively so as not to overburden the physical resources they say this is actually a win s feature a figure of mb was indicated to me as a minimum but you might try anyway by bert tyler satalink com bert tyler i m not all that certain that mathcad is the culprit here i have a dx with mb of main memory less mb for a ramdisk and a bit for a dos session that is opened as part of the startup process which i have been running without any swapfile when i installed the win s subsystem from the march beta of the nt sdk the win s subsystem itself demanded the presence of a swapfile the only win s program i ve run to date is the bit version of freecell that came with that subsystem i gave windows a small temporary swapfile i m leery of files that must remain in fixed locations on my hard disk and all seems well by bca ece cmu edu brian c anderson what is win i upgraded to mathcad and it installed a directory for win under windows system during the upgrade it told me that win was required by case student tc umn edu steven v case mathcad makes use of the win s libraries you ve probably heard about win s it is a bit windows library that provides much of the windows nt functionality no support for threads and multitasking and such but can be run under windows by rhynetc zardoz chem appstate edu thomas c rhyne i also have mb of ram and indeed mathcad insisted on a permanent swapfile it would not run otherwise by bishop baeyer chem fsu edu greg bishop mathcad absolutely requires mb ram with mb swap file or mb ram with mb swap file it will give you a not enough memory error if the swap file is less than mb it is a major resource hog if you do not load the symbolic processor or the smart math it takes about mb of ram real or virtual just to load again due to the win s libraries so it seems that in addition to the system requirements shown on mathsoft s advertisement for that you need a swap file possibly as big as mb looks like i would just need an mb swap file and would need to choose or can i between a faster permanent swap file or a slower temporary swap file apparently a win subsystem ships with mathcad how much disk space does this require i also received these answers by mfdjh uxa ecn bgu edu dale hample if you ve got megs of ram why not configure megs as a ram disk for mathcad dos permits different bootup configurations can mathcad win be configured to use such a ram drive instead of a swap file if not i don t see how using dos for an alternate bootup would provide windows with this swap file some time back i remember a discussion about the issues of using a ram drive to support a swap file but i thought this involved slower mb systems i have dos but for various reasons have not yet done a full installation by the way is a full installation of dos required to avail oneself of the alternate bootup feature which files from the installation disks are required by wild access digex com wildstrom presumeably you mean without a permanent swap file if windows needs a swap file it will upo and create one if a permanent one doesn t exist permanent is generally faster though i don t know why mathcad wouldn t be happy with either type ver is and so should any program conforming to the win specification so far mb has been enough ram to avoid the overhead of running any swap file i have been running mathcad under windows without one
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re win nt what is it can anyone tell me how chicago windows would differ from os x believe it or not i m not trying to start a flame war here i m simply curious if there is going to be any feature advantage in either of these products i do not consider the fact that it has uncle bills seal of approval much of a feature one difference will probably be the same difference as between os and windows x now one will likely have a lot of software available for it and one won t emulation with the inevitable incompatibilities that crop up in spite of all the contrary claims just doesn t count when you have to use a certain software package that doesn t quite run properly under the emulation developers want to channel their resources toward a platform that has a large installed base and in a case like that the platform that is most successfully marketed regardless of its relative sophistication will win lamont downs downs nevada edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re atm so good that there isn t any diff whether or not atmanager is turned on or not is it worth it to run atm at all especially with these better printer technologies and tt there are some fonts that are only available as ps fonts if you have a ps font that you want to use use atm otherwise it is a waste of system resources or if you need to use a service bureau and they re only set up to use type fonts from what i ve heard pure hearsay the results of outputting tt fonts as type is not as good as using high quality type fonts in the first place lamont downs downs nevada edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows slower using dos in article hplvec lvld hp com calloway hplvec lvld hp com frank calloway writes not on my system frank calloway nor mine either of them david a fuess dir center for eecs phone fax lawrence livermore national laboratory
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	boca xga woes hi i am having some interesting problems with my boca graphics card which is based on the cirrus logic chipset i am not sure exactly which one the problem is as follows if i use any windows driver at x except for the k colour driver ie colour or colour the image on screen becomes too tall no amount of resizing on the monitor will make it fit and if i use excel with the k colour driver it hangs as soon as it loads anyone out there used this card experienced anything similar please reply by mail and i will post any solutions here regards simon simon bernstein man is condemned to be free sartre university of natal durban bernstei shrike und ac za simonfish on irc
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help w greenleaf commlib has anyone had experience with the new greenleaf commlib i can t even get their demo winterm to run at baud without dropping characters tnx steve steve alpert w ggn idx systems corp boston massachusetts sra idx com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	filemanager strange sizes in summary line i have just noticed my filemanager doing something strange recently usually the line at the bottom of the filemanager the status bar i guess displays the total disk space and the total number of bytes for the current selection if i select a whole bunch of files i will get an exact byte count recently i notice it incorrectly displays this count it s truncating if i select a file that is say bytes it correctly displays bytes if i select select a file that is bytes it displays bytes not kbytes just bytes if i select it will report only bytes in the selection if i select over a meg worth of files say it reports bytes it s as if it s got a problem with displaying more than characters my system dx m memory stacker dos win i ve run the latest virus scanners scan f prot and they didn t report anything could i have unknowingly altered something that controls the formatting of the status bar in the filemanger nicholas masika masika bnr ca bell northern research ottawa fax opc development operations
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re save my hard disk allocation error cross linked brad banko writes while running the ms quick c compiler in a dos window under windows this evening i got a program has violated system integrity close all applications exit windows and restart your computer error gawd i love windows is there an easy way to restore everything to working order what might be some better approaches you ll probably want to delete any damaged executables and reload them fresh data files should be examined and repaired what might have caused this does the smartdrv cache make me more vulnerable i m suspicious of hard drive caches especially when they cache data writing you re not stupid smartdrive caches things and windows also runs a swap file which may contain data also all of this is pretty risky stuff in a pc environment the straightforward approach would be to run chkdsk with the f option to fix the disk and then it looks like i would probably have to reinstall windows and a few other things a reasonably accurate prediction here s a brief description of how dos stores files there are three pieces to a file the directory entry the fat chain and the data area you can think of these as a sheet of lined notebook paper a sheet of graph paper and a stack of x cards the directory entry notebook paper holds the file name actual size and first cluster number it also holds some other information that s not important right now the file allocation table fat chain graph paper tells where to find the actual data each square of graph paper holds a number if the number is zero the cluster associated with this box is available if it holds a magic number it is either the last piece of a file or a bad unuseable spot on the disk any other number tells which cluster contains the next section of the file the data area x cards is where the actual information is stored the data area is organized as clusters of a fixed size storage is doled out in chunks of one cluster each in your case one cluster is bytes as a cluster is filled another is allocated to read a file you first look at the directory entry to get the starting cluster number now you read the data from that cluster next look at the fat entry for the cluster you just read this will tell you the cluster number for the next chunk of the file naturally these numbers are usually sequential but they can jump around and even go backwards continue reading one cluster at a time as you walk this chain through the fat until you hit the marker which says it s the last cluster in the file chkdsk is the dos utility that checks the sanity and coherence of the directories and the fat and can bludgeon most flaws into submission it doesn t have any intelligence so you have to double check anything it fixes now let s do a bit of a post mortem c gfx vpic cvpic exe c gfx vpic vpic txt c gfx vpic video cfg c gfx vpic orcpro cfg c gfx vpic vga cfg c game goose bird x c winmisc adv winadv exe allocation error size adjusted all of these files have sizes according to the fat which don t match the size reported in their directory entries chkdsk f will alter the directory entries to match the fat size in other words the directory entry for cvpic exe may say the file is bytes long but chkdsk found a fat chain of clusters attached to it my numbers obviously are made up lost allocation units found in chains bytes disk space would be freed disk space was found which is allocated in the fat but is not attached to any directory entry chkdsk f gives you the option of converting these lost chains to files you can then examine the files file chk through file chk and rename or discard them or if you tell chkdsk not to convert them to files then those clusters will simply be marked available in the fat c gfx vpic cvpic exe is cross linked on allocation unit c spart par is cross linked on allocation unit these files are both referencing the same data cluster obviously one of them at least must be wrong it s interesting to note that c spart par is your windows swap file to fix this you should copy each cross linked file to a new name this will fix the cross link by giving the files unique data spaces now delete the cross linked files examine the copies and try to assemble them properly good luck hint missing pieces are likely to be found in those lost chains at the top bytes total disk space bytes in hidden files bytes in directories bytes in user files bytes available on disk your disk is pretty close to full this may be the actual cause of the problem perhaps windows needed to expand its swapfile by an amount which exceeded available disk space in any case the short summary is that something trashed your fat there are utilities that can mirror your fat and help repair damage after something like this but you have to run them before the problem occurs sorry gordon s hlavenka cgordon vpnet chi il us vote straight ticket procrastination party dec rd gordon s hlavenka cgordon vpnet chi il us vote straight ticket procrastination party dec rd
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re diamond speedstar driver for v in article bu edu rem buitc bu edu robert mee writes i am looking for a win driver or set for my diamond speedstar mb video card does anybody know of an archive site that has these i looked at cica and it had drivers for the stealth card and for generic et cards but not one specifically for the speedstar is there one or has diamond dropped the speedstar out of the driver development loop i just looked at cica yesterday and noticed that they didn t have anything but i seem to remember seeing something at wuarchive in the mirrors msdos windows directory i think i got my drivers from america online though mmeltzer wam umd edu is marc meltzer president of the meltz inc our job is to play games our hobby is to consult
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re cirrus logic graph card in comp os ms windows misc gardner a kosmos wcc govt nz andy gardner writes in article qms c t news cs tu berlin de wong cs tu berlin de wolfgang jung writes version drivers are due to be release by cirrus soon unfortunately their not available via ftp you have to dial up their bbs in the usa i do this from nz using a k modem to cut down on phone bills it took me around minutes to download the v driver could you please upload to any of the ftp sites such as ftp ciaca indiana edu and announce it here this will benefit people does not have access to their bbs in usa like me thanks a lot beng hang tay
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re truetype fonts that display but do not print in article apr mintaka lcs mit edu avinash silver lcs mit edu avinash chopde writes i just installed a new truetype font under ms windows but though all the applications display the font correctly on the screen quite a few of them fail to print out the document correctly on a laserjet non postscript printer when i use the font in coreldraw the document prints correctly so i assume coreldraw knows that the font has to be downloaded to the printer but when i use the windows accessory write the printer prints square boxes in place of the characters of the new font yet write does display the font correctly on the screen i looked through all the windows and laserjet manuals but got nowhere all of them just make the statement that truetype fonts will print exactly as you see them on the screen so i assume windows knows that a font has to be downloaded automatically but how to make it do that appreciate any help i assume you re using the driver available from cica hp v zip bring up the setup screen of the printer through control panel click on the options button brings up another screen of choices change the graphics mode from hp gl to raster and check the box print truetype as graphics this is only available when you choose raster now you should be able to print all your truetype fonts correctly good luck lei shao ls cunixa cc columbia edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	summary ati graphics ultra questions etc to those interested in the new ati ultra cards i had posted some questions regarding the new ati ultra pro cards and had asked confirmation of some opinions this message is a summary of the responses thanks to all of you that replied the card does not work in a system with m ram a the higher memory limits apply to isa cards only as far as i know the vlb and eisa version should have no problems b i m pretty sure from my experience that the isa version doesn t work in systems with over m ram there is supposed to be way of switching the memory aperture feature off to prevent this but apparently it doesn t work i posted some help me messages on the net and people indicated that the eisa card didn t have this problem c false d the vlb card which i have allows you to set memory aperture over m by using their configuration software no messing with jumpers necessary the m problem is probably valid only for isa cards the card works in a m system with some switches set but it is much slower a again the memory aperture need only be disabled if you have more than m ram eisa and vlb or m isa m should not be a problem for you b dunno c depends on the bus yes if isa no if eisa or localbus the card is interlaced in its bit true colour modes a nope i can use x at hz bit and x at hz bit all non interlaced b yes according to pc magazine they ve tested a local bus version that does x in bit which may or may not be interlaced c not for the pro sometimes for the plus some modes may run only interlaced on certain monitors this has nothing to do with bits only with screen size note that for bit color and windows you must have megs memory size calculations notwithstanding the latest build drivers still do not work in many cases a they aren t perfect but are much improved i don t recall the last time which i had to leave mach mode ati gup mode and switch to or vga mode due to software incompatibility b true many people recommended going back to build or c they appear to be excellent but have a few bugs for example certain graphs with dashed lines in mathcad do not print correctly though they do display ok on the screen they are about par for fancy cards other accelerated cards also have bugs d overall i like the card even if driver performance is somewhat less than satisfactory i am running the color mode as that is all my nt driver for october nt version seems to allow i will say this that color performance is not quite as nice as a diamond stealth vram but i have not been able to try out a lot of the options on the old driver this card is the fastest full colour card for the money a it s quite fast but whether or not its the fastest is open to debate b yes i ll admit it was very very fast in bit mode which is what i wanted to use it for too bad it crashed in many different ways every minutes or so c depends on many many things this card is the greatest thing since sliced bread a i like it b well pc magazine seems to think it is c yes this appears to be true d as to greatest thing since sliced bread i doubt it better cards are coming out who knows maybe ati will come out with something faster yet several reviews i read rated one pycon winjet card as a superior performer at a cheaper price except for availability of drivers which pycon was developing at that time pc magazine about two months or so back overall the card has a lot of potential but you have to be able to use it that is the end of the questions these were the most discussed items in this group so i thought they needed confirmation for those of you not familiar with the card i have included a summary here from an ati ad since i don t have an graphics ultra yet ati graphics ultra plus accelerated x at k colours true colour m at x multimedia video acceleration for indeo video rle and video compressed stretch full motion video windows to full size fast vga includes button mouse isa versions only anti aliased fonts ed avail in colour mode only i think real time pan and zoom across large virtual windows desktop around a length card size priced from u s ati graphics ultra pro everything in graphics ultra plus faster performance with vrams accelerated x at colours hz non interlaced available in isa eisa and microchannel priced from u s ati technologies i hope this summary can be of use to you al p s i am not associated with ati technologies in any way other than having used their previous ati ultra card for a few years which i generally liked alan walford eos systems inc vancouver b c canada tel aew eosvcr wimsey bc ca or uunet wimsey bc ca eosvcr aew
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re yowza sloooowwww printing from dos i also had a simular problem with by nec p it went away when i turned on the print directly to parallel port option in the printer setup apallette mencsh tract und gott lacht yaturner netcom com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows errors and a bad memory hi my last question for the year i have a mail order no name notebook with meg ram i never have problems with my huge ramdisk or when running desqview but win and w w constantly crash on me most commonly citing a memory parity error the only thing i can do is turn off and re boot my cmos ticks off counts all the memory every startup and there is never a problem with this either could it be a bug in my windows copy instead of the hardware i remember having some disk error problems when installing it is there any change i could make to lessen the frequency or likelyhood of this happening i think win vs win s produce different crashes but both crash frequently nonetheless i know this is a pain but please answer by email because my home account doesn t have rn and i will stop asking questions now thank you chet pager chetter ucthpx uct ac za
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	bar code fonts i am looking for some bar code fonts especially code of did anybody know any ftp sites or bbs that i can download these types of fonts please email to me if you have any info thanks
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dos vfintd and windows sys ini does anyone know what the vfintd device is used for in windows it s under the enh section as device c dos vfintd after upgrading to dos on several machines different types some include it some don t any ideas pl
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	books for writing thesis in wfw hi i was wondering if anyone out there knows of any books that give helpful hints and tips on writing thesis papers in wfw i know about the dissertation template that comes with word but i want more i would like to have tips on how to use all the seq bookmark index chapter fields that are available in word i have looked through the help files etc but they really don t explain a whole lot i will post the results that means email me first if i get a lot of different suggestions since i think this might be of help to lots of crazy grad students such as myself thanks brian servis p s how do you change the font that help uses when printing a topic the default is so choppy and hard to read servis author ecn purdue edu it happened this way actual quotes from insurance claims what i say may not be what i think what i say may not be the pedestrian had no idea which what purdue thinks way to go so i ran him over
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re trumpet for windows other news readers in article ashok biochemistry cwru edu ashok biochemistry cwru edu ashok aiyar writes in article apr liris tew kuleuven ac be wimvh liris tew kuleuven ac be wim van holder writes what the status of trumpet for windows will it use the windows sockets stuff deleted currently wintrumpet is in very late beta it looks like an excellent product with several features beyond the dos version wintrumpet supports the trumpet tcp novell lwp and there is also a direct to packet driver version that some people are using with the dis pkt shim ashok ashok aiyar mail ashok biochemistry cwru edu department of biochemistry tel cwru school of medicine cleveland ohio fax what s it gonna cost ginny mcbride oregon health sciences university mcbride ohsu edu networks technical services the purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas obscure poor reasoning and inhibit clarity with a little practice writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog academia here i come calvin hobbes
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re x windows for windows pc xview from ncd hcl exceed from hummingbird software all opinions expressed are my own because nobody else wants them jls antares larc nasa gov jon l sweet
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	cica mirror is there a ftp cica indiana edu mirror anyware that isn t so busy thanks phil trodwell this space i d be happy to ram a goddam volt cattle for rent prod into that tub with you right now but not cheap this radio hunter s thompson
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re winqvtnet with ndis on token ring in article apr liris tew kuleuven ac be wimvh liris tew kuleuven ac be wim van holder writes is it possible to use winqvt net on a machine that uses ndis to connect to a token ring i tried it with older versions but got an invalid packet class error or something the like how are you attempting to do that are you using the dis pkt program this provides a packet driver on top of the ndis driver thomas beagle thomas datamark co nz work o technical writer thomas cavebbs welly gen nz home wellington nz hound for hire will work for dog biscuits
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re utility for updating win ini and system ini in article apr news uit no svein pedersen sp odin fna no writes sorry i did nt tell exactly what i need i need a utility for automatic updating deleting adding changing of ini files for windows the program should run from dos batchfile or the program run a script under windows i will use the utility for updating the win ini and other files on meny pc s do i find it on any ftp host svein if you are managing pc s on a novell network get the network management tools provided by either sabre software or automated design systems among the many features you ll find utilities that can help you to manage ini files stored on users workstations or home directories this is commercial software and well worth the money to date i have not found anything available via ftp that could compare reply to the address in my sig for more info stephen gibson system support specialist sonoma state university email gibsonst sonoma edu stephen gibson sonoma edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	speeding up windows i have a with megs of memory i have noticed that lately when i use programs like wpfw or corel draw my computer boggs down and becomes really sluggish what can i do to increase performance what should i turn on or off will not loading wallpapers or stuff like that help when it comes to the running speed of windows and the programs that run under it thanx in advance derek derek j p serianni e mail djserian flash lakeheadu ca o o sociologist it s miles to chicago we ve got a full tank lakehead university of gas half a pack of cigarettes it s dark and u thunder bay ontario we re wearing sunglasses elwood blues
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows and multiple monitors m apart hi i am working on gathering data on the way that users use computers this involves getting subjects to type and use a mouse i want to be able to watch what they are doing without being in the same room it would be ideal if i could watch the session on another monitor without the subjects knowledge i believe that spliting the monitor cable will only work for short distances ie m i will need to be approx m away as the cable travels the pc s are connected to a tcp ip network and run windows is there any software that will allow me to watch what is happening on another pc thanks regards jon gough trust project
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	order of files written when exitting windows trying to pin point a hardware problem with my disk maxtor at group files get corrupted on a regular basis only happens on this drive d had only one corrupt file in over a year and it was under the control of winword on c bit disk access and smartdrive are off since installation of dblspace problem has turned from an annoyance to a reason for murder since the most frequent files corrupted are the grp files are these the last thing written to when exitting windows also are there any pd shareware utilities available that do a more thorough job than dos ndd etc dos and win compatable thanks mike hayes knowledge is good faber college motto www knowledge and thoroughness rensselear poly motto unemployed tech no thank you groucho marx a day at the races driven to banging my head against engineering physics for years
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re how do i quickly switch between windows screen resolutions in article c qlr djl cbnewsl cb att com slg slgsun att com the idealistic cynic writes can someone out there tell me how to switch window s screen resolution quickly and easily i know that i can go back into install to do it but what i d really like is to have is the ability to just change a couple of startup or configuration files and have the resolution changed i already have both video drivers that i need on my system so that isn t a problem thanks sean sean l gilley sean l gilley att com use this address all others bounce h w there is a shareware program called v switch zip i don t remember if it is on wuarchive wustl edu or on ftp cica indiana edu it is easy to use and does the job with no problem eric ebosco us oracle com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows speaker sound driver in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu alee mnemosyne cs du edu alec lee writes is there an ftp site where i can get the ms speaker sound driver there s a sound exe file that claims to be the driver but i m suspicious since it s not a drv file thanks alec lee the sound exe is actually a self extracting script which includes the drv file works great eric
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re trumpet for windows other news readers in article mcbride ohsu edu mcbride ohsu edu ginny mcbride writes in article ashok biochemistry cwru edu ashok biochemistry cwru edu ashok aiyar writes currently wintrumpet is in very late beta it looks like an excellent product with several features beyond the dos version wintrumpet supports the trumpet tcp novell lwp and there is also a direct to packet driver version that some people are using with the dis pkt shim what s it gonna cost again i do not speak for peter tattam but it is my understanding that it will shareware status as trumpet for dos is and i imagine that the registration fees will be similar i also believe that a new version of trumpet for dos will be released sometime in the near future ashok ashok aiyar mail ashok biochemistry cwru edu department of biochemistry tel cwru school of medicine cleveland ohio fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re emm exe and windows and dos in a previous article rudim cs kuleuven ac be rudi maelbrancke says in windows i created a permanent swap file of kb as win recommended me to do that bit access if i use emm exe after win startup i have k of memory free if i leave emm exe out of my config sys i have k of memory free and windows recommends me a swap file of k i think you need the emm exe noems this will let the expanded mem be active but not use any therefore this will give you more extended mem for windows yet have all the bases covered i use dos with memmaker have mb of internal memory and a dx i do not use dos so i am not familiar with this does anybody knows why this is happening possibly win needs some umb s to manage virtual memory if true which umb s those that emm can find without including suspicious parts i need an optimized dos environment because i develop applications for dos using a windows programming environment rudi c ya artin this communication is sent by artin university of arizona tucson ak cleveland freenet edu mlinsenb ccit arizona edu mlinsenb arizvms death has been dead for about years follow the king of kings
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	does win use a math co processor if a pc has one does windows use a math co processor i m not talking about specific apps but the os if you want to call it that itself please respond by email peter schwenk schwenk cis udel edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re how can i use the mouse in non windows applications under ms windows wnkretz ikesg energietechnik uni stuttgart de oliver kretzschmar writes hey could somebody tell me how it is possible to work with the mouse in a non windows application which runs in an window we use ms windows and have clipper applications exists there any routines or something else please mail me your informations thanks for your efforts oliver name o kretzschmar inst ike university stuttgart phone pfaffenwaldring fax stuttgart email wnkretz ikesg energietechnik uni stuttgart de very simple you have to have the mouse com or mouse sys loaded in dos before you run windows note that you don t need to have these files loaded to use the mouse in windows
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re workgroup questions conven ram and licensing in article ra abh h eosvcr wimsey bc ca aew eosvcr wimsey bc ca alan walford writes i would be very appreciative if someone would answer a few questions about windows for workgroups i currently have novell netware lite which does not work with windows very well and is a conventional memory hog ver i am considering moving all our machines to w wg q how much conventional ram does w wg use over and above the driver for the network card about kbyte without novell support q if i have a novell ne card are the lsl and ipx drivers still needed no q does w wg do a license check over the network to ensure each machine is running its own licenced copy of w wg note i do not want to break the license agreement and i will buy a copy of w wg for each of our machines it is just that i would like to try it out first to see if it meets our needs returning one opened copy is much easier than returning n opened copies no q if you buy the upgrade to windows for w wg does it replace all of win as you install it or does it depend on current win files nearly all q if i install windows nt on my server when it comes out will i have any troubles with the w wg machines we run mixed wnt beta and w wg no problem apart from printer sharing beta problem when i started this message i was going to ask only questions but i got carried away i ll stop now we had problems with mouse drivers using w wg where windows didn t seems to be more critical about it it was actualy a port problem with the network card running on x e we changed it to x now everything is allright i think it has to do with the ami bios as well i look forward to your replies al alan walford eos systems inc vancouver b c canada tel aew eosvcr wimsey bc ca or uunet wimsey bc ca eosvcr aew ralf rutherford telecom aust mhsnet rruther cssc melb tansu com au network services snail blackburn rd clayton vic customised software solutions australia center melbourne phone fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re speeding up windows djserian flash lakeheadu ca reincarnation of elvis writes i have a with megs of memory i have noticed that lately when i use programs like wpfw or corel draw my computer boggs down and becomes really sluggish what can i do to increase performance what should i turn on or off will not loading wallpapers or stuff like that help when it comes to the running speed of windows and the programs that run under it thanx in advance derek make sure your hard drive is defragmented this will speed up more than just windows btw use something like norton s or pc tools i think that leaving the wall paper out will use less ram and therefore will speed up your machine but i could very will be wrong on this there s a good chance you ve already done this but if not it may speed things up good luck morgan bullard mb coewl cen uiuc edu or mjbb uxa cso uiuc edu derek j p serianni e mail djserian flash lakeheadu ca o o sociologist it s miles to chicago we ve got a full tank lakehead university of gas half a pack of cigarettes it s dark and u thunder bay ontario we re wearing sunglasses elwood blues
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	comm drv replacement there was a recent post about a bbs where you could download a replacement for comm drv win x that fixed a lot of the problems with high speed modems does anyone know of an ftp site where i can get it thanks alec lee alec lee aslee diana cair du edu alee cs du edu sexy but what s wrong with being sexy nigel tufnel spinal tap
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re filemanager strange sizes in summary line in apr bmers bnr ca masika bnr ca nicholas masika writes i have just noticed my filemanager doing something strange recently usually the line at the bottom of the filemanager the status bar i guess displays the total disk space and the total number of bytes for the current selection if i select a whole bunch of files i will get an exact byte count recently i notice it incorrectly displays this count it s truncating if i select a file that is say bytes it correctly displays bytes if i select select a file that is bytes it displays bytes not kbytes just bytes if i select it will report only bytes in the selection if i select over a meg worth of files say it reports bytes it s as if it s got a problem with displaying more than characters my system dx m memory stacker dos win i ve run the latest virus scanners scan f prot and they didn t report anything could i have unknowingly altered something that controls the formatting of the status bar in the filemanger it sounds like something one may have set the s separator to in contol panel under international this makes look like and file manager is chopping off what it thinks is the decimal part of the file size becomes and again file manager is confused by the decimal points where there should be commas chopping off everything to the right of the first period tony debari fqdn tonyd ssc sbwk nj us ci uucp uunet ssc tonyd p ghrw b a k a skip bowler captain of usenet fantasy bowling league team
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re quicken vs tobias managing your money i ve never had quicken but i did use mym in it s early days i have ms money for windows now and a financial planning package called wealthbuilder by reality technologies and money magazine p s i also do my taxes with turbo tax all of these packages are good in their own way but none of them really support me in doing what i really need to do manage my finances the first company that comes along with a windows based package that manages budgets and accounts manages loans calculates taxes uses all of the above and knowledge about my investing philosophy to help me invest in the right investment vehicles and integrates it all together will have my business for life ken khackbarth attmail com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	cornerstone dualpage driver wanted i am looking for a window driver for cornerstone dualpage cornerstone technology inc video card does anybody know that has these is there one thanks for any info to nis to nis kelder estonian biocentre tkelder kask ebc ee
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	printer security mark juric a i programs mjuric ai uga edu university of georgia athens georgia
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re cica mirror i find that it s always almost anyway busy when i dial but if i try repeatedly usually only to tries i always get connected
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re mouse on com under windows i ve pursued and researched this question over the last month or so because i have the same requirements you do and the long and short of it is that the windows mouse drivers don t accept mice at any but com and com using irq or irq unless you buy special drivers from someone who has them i ve talked to mouse systems who say their driver doesn t support other than com and com as above but who claim to be releasing one that will soon the other alternative seems to be possible but in one case prohibitively expensive i e port card for and in the other the author s of powerbbs for windows claim to have a port serial card with buffered uarts and drivers for windows to match i e com irq for the second paragraph is hearsay because i haven t checked it out yet but intend to as soon as i can free up g hope this will save you some steps
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re atm in article r jq af network ucsd edu adean weber ucsd edu anthony v dean writes i ve been reading with much confusion about whether or not to use atmanager lately all the packages i ve been buying have all included atmanager as a bonus i do some desktop publishing using pagemaker and coreldraw coreldraw comes with a nifty laser disk that contains over diff types add that to the ttfonts that come with win and you have a decent amount of fonts i print my creations out on an hp postcript at dpi resolution with the resolution enhancement technology and well i get some darn good copies so good that there isn t any diff whether or not atmanager is turned on or not is it worth it to run atm at all especially with these better printer technologies and tt atm will do nothing for your truetype fonts if your truetype fonts are sufficient for your needs don t run atm i have a lot of fonts that i can install either as type postscript under atm or as truetype i have noticed that truetype font files are at least larger than their type equivalents if you are using a disk compressor though be aware that truetype fonts will compress whereas type fonts will not they are encrypted with a dpi laser printer the artificial bold version of a truetype font is indistingishable from the original forcing me to install the actual bold and bold italic etc variants if i want to use them type postscript fonts under atm generate a visually distinct bold variant from the base font i realize that the artificial bold font that atm generates is aesthetically inferior to the hand generated bold truetype variant but it is sufficient for my needs and not having to install bold variants saves me on disk space uncompressed bob nichols at t bell laboratories rnichols ihlpm ih att com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	many people on one machine i have several people sharing my machine and would like to set up separate environments under windows for each of them is there some way of setting things up separate desktops directories for each of them ideally i d like totally separate virtual machines i d be willing to settle for less and may end up having batch files that copy ini files around depending on who wants to use the machine mark alas setup n doesn t work if you don t have a network
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	trnasfering binary files from terminal to unix i m attempting to transfer files from my home computer running windows terminal to a workstation at school the file transfer protocol at home is kermit for binary files i m running kermit on the workstation at school and setting the file transfer protocol to binary i am unable to upload files to school but can download files from school to home during download terminal displays ther retrying message several times then the message verify you re using the correct protocol anyone have any ideas on how to fix either e mail or post to this group thanks in advance brian anderson go pens make it in a row
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re order of files written when exitting windows in article apr ucsu colorado edu hayesj rintintin colorado edu hayes james michael jr writes trying to pin point a hardware problem with my disk maxtor at group files get corrupted on a regular basis only happens on this drive d had only one corrupt file in over a year and it was under the control of winword on c bit disk access and smartdrive are off since installation of dblspace problem has turned from an annoyance to a reason for murder are you using fastopen if you are disable it we had a lot of problems with fastopen corrupting weird things including the windows permanent swap file when we were using it since the most frequent files corrupted are the grp files are these the last thing written to when exitting windows indeed they are advanced personal measure tells me they are accessed just before shell dll also are there any pd shareware utilities available that do a more thorough job than dos ndd etc dos and win compatable i really like spinrite and qa plus tom paladin world std com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re diamond ss x greetings i ve had a bunch of problems with the x opening a dos window on the desktop can occasionally result in the windows blowing up into a set of horizontal lines hashing the entire desktop nothing can recover this except to completely exit from windows the other irritating problem is that windows that scroll often overwrite lines rather than actually scrolling as if a cr was printed without an lf this seems only to happen to communications programs but i can t nail it down any further than that note though that the comms programs don t have to be communicating even just scrolling back through capture buffers or displaying disk files in these programs causes the problem prior to the latest rev of word perfect for windows wpwin would sometimes blow up and the error message would cite the video driver as the source of the problem i ve still seen this but only once or twice with wpwin dave zimmerman my opinions are my own
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	searching for a phonetic font i m searching for a phonetic truetype font for windows if anybody knows one please mail me thanks dw dipl inform dietmar weidlich ifado ardeystr weidlich arb phys uni dortmund de d dortmund phone dr b koennten sie das fax mal eben erledigen
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	workspace manager for win are there any workspace managers out there for windows by a workspace manager i mean something like the hp apollo workstations have multiple workspaces under x there is a window at the bottom of the screen which allows you to select different workspaces it overcomes the problem of having stacks of windows open on the one screen instead you can spread them amongst different workspaces which act like independent screens and you can flick between them thanks in advance
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re searching for a phonetic font weidlich arb phys uni dortmund de weidlich writes i m searching for a phonetic truetype font for windows if anybody knows one please mail me thanks dw dipl inform dietmar weidlich ifado ardeystr weidlich arb phys uni dortmund de d dortmund phone dr b koennten sie das fax mal eben erledigen yes i m looking for phonetic font s too so if you know one please mail me too thanks in advance patrick hudepohl vu amsterdam the netherlands
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows for workgroups and lan workplace hey sounds great does that mean that w wg works with odi i thought it uses ndis wfwg does use ndis but it cooperates well with the ndis shim for odi i ve heard that it is as fast as ndis direct my problem is that lan workplace with all its drivers uses up most of my umbs so i d hate to have to load many more drivers to make w wg work along the additional tsr load is minimal i think i eat another k total this is worth it to me since it allows me to get to my windows nt box novell hasn t released a decent nt novell client yet so i share through my wfwg box this solution is very usable
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	vb decompiler subject says it all do any exist are they shareware where phil trodwell this space i d be happy to ram a goddam volt cattle for rent prod into that tub with you right now but not cheap this radio hunter s thompson
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re windows speaker sound driver tony s annese claebaur shell portal com wrote in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu alee mnemosyne cs du edu alec lee writes is there an ftp site where i can get the ms speaker sound driver there s a sound exe file that claims to be the driver but i m suspicious since it s not a drv file thats the file it s a self extracting archive run it and it extracts a drv file michael groeten uit o michael schaap o nederland t p mscha ctp com ctp sherrif inc dept damn good coffee and hot
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re need longer filenames in apr guinness idbsu edu lhighley gozer idbsu edu larry paul highley wrote is there a utility out there that will let me use filenames longer than the standard format if so please email me please e mail me too thanks howard hfeldman infoserv com howard feldman mind s eye inc
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re how can i use the mouse in non windows applications under ms windows kasajian netcom com kenneth kasajian writes wnkretz ikesg energietechnik uni stuttgart de oliver kretzschmar writes hey could somebody tell me how it is possible to work with the mouse in a non windows application which runs in an window we use ms windows and have clipper applications exists there any routines or something else please mail me your informations thanks for your efforts oliver name o kretzschmar inst ike university stuttgart phone pfaffenwaldring fax stuttgart email wnkretz ikesg energietechnik uni stuttgart de very simple you have to have the mouse com or mouse sys loaded in dos before you run windows note that you don t need to have these files loaded to use the mouse in windows one addition to this i don t know if it applies to everybody for my microsoft dpi mouse to work with windowed dos apps i had to use the driver that came with windows version didn t allow me to do it for some reason
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re more cool bmp files has anybody gotten this bmp to work i try to uudecode it but i get input file error and no picture anybody casey
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	hard drive compression ie stacker superstor etc i was wondering if any one knew how the various hard drive compression utilities work my hard drive is getting full and i don t want to have to buy a new one what i m intrested in is speed ease of use amount of compression and any other aspect you think might be important as i ve never use one of these things before thanks morgan bullard mb coewl cen uiuc edu or mjbb uxa cso uiuc edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re how can i use the mouse in non windows applications under ms windows in article ucsu colorado edu gonzaled ucsu colorado edu lgv mc writes kasajian netcom com kenneth kasajian writes wnkretz ikesg energietechnik uni stuttgart de oliver kretzschmar writes hey could somebody tell me how it is possible to work with the mouse in a non windows application which runs in an window we use ms windows and have clipper applications exists there any routines or something else please mail me your informations thanks for your efforts oliver name o kretzschmar inst ike university stuttgart phone pfaffenwaldring fax stuttgart email wnkretz ikesg energietechnik uni stuttgart de very simple you have to have the mouse com or mouse sys loaded in dos before you run windows note that you don t need to have these files loaded to use the mouse in windows one addition to this i don t know if it applies to everybody for my microsoft dpi mouse to work with windowed dos apps i had to use the driver that came with windows version didn t allow me to do it for some reason i could never find the microsoft mouse driver on my windows installation disks but dos also has version of mouse com stephen thomas at t tridom email sat eng tridom com attmail tridom sat
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	why is my mouse so jumpy ms mouse i have a microsoft serial mouse and am using mouse com was using i think but switched to to see if it was any better vertical motion is nice and smooth but horizontal motion is so bad i sometimes can t click on something because my mouse jumps around i can be moving the mouse to the right with relatively uniform motion and the mouse will move smoothly for a bit then jump to the right then move smoothly for a bit then jump again maybe this time to the left about inch this is crazy i have never had so much trouble with a mouse before anyone have any solutions does microsoft think they are what everyone should be just venting steam sean eckton computer support representative college of fine arts and communications d hfac brigham young university provo ut hfac csr byu edu ecktons ucs byu edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ms windows access for the blind we are developing an ms windows based product that uses a full screen window to display rows of textual data is there any product for microsoft windows that will enable blind individuals to access the data efficiently quickly please email responses and i will post a summary to this group thanks for any help john bruno
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re ms windows access for the blind in article apr cci cci com jfb cci cci com john bruno writes from jfb cci cci com john bruno subject ms windows access for the blind date thu apr gmt we are developing an ms windows based product that uses a full screen window to display rows of textual data is there any product for microsoft windows that will enable blind individuals to access the data efficiently quickly please email responses and i will post a summary to this group thanks for any help john bruno apparently microsoft came out with a new product ms braille it is suppose to be wytiwig no offense marc trottier mtrottie emr emr ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	postscript file viewer a co worker of mine needs to convert a postscript file to a form readable ie ascii in windows or dos does anybody know of a utility that will do this i have a vague memory of a shareware utility someone mentioned once thanks for any info barry
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	looking for printer driver i m looking for a c itoh printer driver for windows does anybody happen to know where i could find such a beast thanks in advance jerry look ma no signature
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re looking for printer driver jeremi ee ualberta ca william jeremiah writes i m looking for a c itoh printer driver for windows does anybody happen to know where i could find such a beast uh slight clarification that should be a printer driver for the c itoh lips laser printer thanks again thanks in advance jerry look ma no signature
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re diamond ss x in article apr condor navsses navy mil zimm condor navsses navy mil writes greetings i ve had a bunch of problems with the x opening a dos window on the desktop can occasionally result in the windows blowing up into a set of horizontal lines hashing the entire desktop nothing can recover this except to completely exit from windows the other irritating problem is that windows that scroll often overwrite lines rather than actually i posted a similar query and got these replies which i am testing so far so good turn hardware scrolling off before going into windows xmode scrolloff in the pif file for dos window set emulate text mode get the latest drivers from the diamond bbs or cica dates are steve chesney slc catherine cim cdc com metaphase technology inc voice north lexington avenue fax arden hills mn
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re how can i use the mouse in non windows applications under ms windows in article apr ucsu colorado edu gonzaled ucsu colorado edu lgv mc writes one addition to this i don t know if it applies to everybody for my microsoft dpi mouse to work with windowed dos apps i had to use the driver that came with windows version didn t allow me to do it for some reason for logitech rodents use the lmouse driver that comes with windows also you need to be using a video driver that supports use of the mouse both the vga and supervga that come with windows will support it both of these are color drivers if you re lucky the manufacturer of your video card might have a driver that is compatable and will support a mouse steve stephen guerke coord computer resources sguerke brahms udel edu university of delaware parallel program stephen guerke mvs udel edu georgetown de ilv udelvm udel edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how to hold the control to a window object hope i am in the right group i m using bc s objectwindows version trying to get some date processed in a window object however when invoking the window object the calling program gives up the control to the window object and keeps executing the next statement the source code may look like the following class mywindow public twindow void mycallingprog could the calling program be a c function mywindow mywinobj mywinobj new mywindow getapplication makewindow mywinobj mywinobj show sw shownormal next statement i want the program to wait here until mywinobj is closed so that i can get some data back from mywinobj i specified the window style to be ws popupwindow didn t help is there any other way to execute the window object so that the calling program won t give up the control any help would be appreciated thanks jun to talk to the lord with ps through ms windows
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re telix problem dericks plains nodak edu dale erickson writes when i use telix or kermit in win or use telix after exiting windows to dos telix can not find the serial port if you have some ideas on how to solve this problem or where i can find further information send me email or send it to the news group thanks you may have to define your serial ports under windows i think it s the control panel ports options dale erickson dericks plains nodak edu mattias mattias hembruch my views do not necessarily reflect those of the tse e mail mhembruc tse com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re midi files on ms win and soundblaster the cybard dudek acsu buffalo edu wrote i have a dx computer with a soundblaster card i m running microsoft windows v i have the sb driver set up properly to play normal sounds wav files etc i want to play midi files through the media player that is included with windows i know i have to set up the patch maps or something in the midi mapper in the control panel i know nothing about midi this is to be the way i ll get my feet wet how do i set up windows so that i can play midi files if you install the soundblaster windows drivers correctly and have the latest drivers the media player should be setup to play files authored to microsoft s multimedia midi authoring standard general midi see the section in the back of the voyetra manual in the soundblaster midi upgrade kit you ll find that midi files exist with all kinds of different mappings so don t expect them to always sound correct without using some kind of midi file editor such as voyetra s sequencer plus you can attempt to use the midi mapper to remap the patches for soundblaster but since you cannot modify the sbfm drv you are allways stuck with the instruments that come with this driver unless you can find an editor for making modifications to the instrument settings in sbfm drv i would suggest you locate the early version of soundblaster drivers that were mapped to mt voices and the later drivers that are mapped to the general midi voices david thomas dudek v pwxs ubvms bitnet the cybard state university dudek sun acsu buffalo edu of new york if music be the food of love buffalo play on wm shakespeare
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re trumpet for windows other news readers where s an ftp site for trumpet other than wuarchive umich something off the beaten path thanks malcolm
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wanted sample source for editing controls hi everyone i would like to get an example program source code to get started with a simple editor similar to windows dialog editor but lot simplified can someone point me to a source such as a programming windows book or example program comes with windows sdk from microsoft or borland i would greatly appreciate it all i want to do is to be able to place a edit control or combobox or a listbox on a window and be able to drag and resize if anyone has written similar program and don t mind sharing code or ideas i would appreciate it very much thnx in advance manu das please send me directly at manu oas olivetti com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re speeding up windows in article thunder lakeheadu ca djserian flash lakeheadu ca reincarnation of elvis writes i have a with megs of memory i have noticed that lately when i use programs like wpfw or corel draw my computer boggs down and becomes really sluggish what can i do to increase performance what should i turn on or off will not loading wallpapers or stuff like that help when it comes to the running speed of windows and the programs that run under it thanx in advance derek you can try defraging your disk more often it definitely will help speed things up a megs smartdrv is also a good idea with the amount of memory you have and use fastdisk bit access if you not already hope that help n ngo
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows disk drive test availabel is their a pd freeware hard drive utility that can handle a compressed ide drive without screwwing it up need to document occasional failures in reading writing check overall integrity of disk s hardware and sectors i believe that all of my problems with dos windows can be isolated to my drive getting occasional corrupted files even with smartdrive bit access turned off had these problems under dos only with drive c drive d may have had one failure but that file was under the control of win winword on drive c all utilities available to me report no problems dos ndd nu another symptom sd took forever on c and kicked me out with a suspension till ndd run to times thanks mike hayes knowledge is good faber college motto www knowledge and thoroughness rensselear poly motto unemployed tech no thank you groucho marx a day at the races driven to banging my head against engineering physics for years
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re canon bj bubblejet and hp deskjet in article apr csd newshost stanford edu kayman csd d stanford edu robert kayman writes hello fellow netters i am asking for your collected wisdom to help me decide which printer i should purchase the canon bj bubblejet vs the hp deskjet i thought rather than trust the salesperson i would benefit more from relying on those who use these printers daily and use them to their fullest potential and i figure all of you will know their benefits and pitfalls better than any salesperson now i would greatly appreciate any information you could render on the dpi of the canon bubblejet vs the hewlett packard deskjet dpi which is faster is there a noticeable print quality difference particularly in graphics which will handle large documents better pages or more any personal experience on either will be appreciated here which works better under windows any driver problems etc cost of memory font packages toner cartridges etc basically your personal experiences with either of these machines is highly desirable both good and bad advance kudos and thanks for all your input e mail or news posting is readily acceptable but e mail is encouraged limits bandwidth sincerely robert kayman kayman cs stanford edu or cpa cs stanford edu in theory theory and practice are the same in practice they are not you mean you want the revised revision of the original revised revision revised sorry for the followup but i couldn y get email through on your addresses i too am trying to decide between these two printers and i would like to hear what users of these printers have to say about the questions above thank you randy randy msc cornell edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re moving icons in article bp rahpbh h viamar uucp rutgers viamar kmembry writes i remember reading about a program that made windows icons run away from the mouse as it moved near them does anyone know the name of this program and the ftp location probably at cica the file is frite zip and you ll find it in the icons directory at cica the one line description is afflict your icons with cursorphobia o paul blackman pwb science canberra edu au o water research centre pwb aerg canberra edu au o faculty of applied science o university of canberra australia spend a little love and get high lenny kravitz
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re workspace manager for win in article r uml werple apana org au jamie zikzak apana org au jamie scuglia writes are there any workspace managers out there for windows try workshift by karl thoreddson the latest version is or later but the following is at cica in the desktop directory wrksft zip workshift graphical virtual desktop ver or email karl and ask him to put version up karl s email karlth rhi hi is from the ms write file of v i was beta tester for workshift and must say it is very good i gain nothing from saying that it ll even remember your workshifts workspaces as you said between windows sessions thanks in advance your welcome o paul blackman pwb science canberra edu au o water research centre pwb aerg canberra edu au o faculty of applied science o university of canberra australia spend a little love and get high lenny kravitz
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re canon bj bubblejet and hp deskjet i edited a few newsgroup from that line don t like to crosspost that much i can t compare the two but i recently got an hp deskjet i m very pleased with the output remember that i m used to imagens laser and postscript printers at school looks very good you have to be careful to let it dry before touching it as it will smudge the deskjet is slow this is in comparison to the other printers i mentioned i have no idea how the bubblejet compares the interface between win and the printer is just dandy i ve not had any problems with it hope that helps some cindy cindy tittle moore internet tittle ics uci edu bitnet cltittle uci bitnet uucp ucbvax ucivax tittle usnail po box irvine ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	out of environment space running bat files from windows i have a bat file that i run under a windows icon i have set up a pif file to run the bat file in exclusive mode and to use the entire screen the first line of the bat file sets an environment variable my problem is that on some of our machines running ms dos and windows in enhanced mode the set command in the bat file fails with the out of environment space error i have raised the amount of environment space to bytes using the shell command in config sys so i know that i am nowhere near to running out if i just click on the ms dos icon i can create a bunch of environment varibles from the dos shell the problem is that on some machines setting the value of an environment variable in a bat file fails has anyone seen such behavior before i see no place in the pif fail to configure environment space lance j gay internet gay venice sedd trw com trw systems engineering development div phone carson ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re many people on one machine in cda ucf vm bitnet cda ucf vm bitnet mark woodruff writes i have several people sharing my machine and would like to set up separate environments under windows for each of them is there some way of setting things up separate desktops directories for each of them ideally i d like totally separate virtual machines i d be willing to settle for less and may end up having batch files that copy ini files around depending on who wants to use the machine you could use dos to do this partly you can set up different config sys and autoexec bat commands for each user and they just have to select their menu option on bootup then you can have the autoexec bat copy the win ini and system ini files and change directories for them when they exit windows it can copy back generic ini files if you want this is the only way i can think of there may be some programs somewhere that allow you to do this better though using dos allows each person to have a custom config sys and autoexec bat greg williams georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism gw internet gw prism gatech edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	in need of help ok i have a problem that i thought you guys gals might know about i m running a dx with a mb hdd i also have windows but hardly any dos application will run out it also when i do a mem command it says that i have used up kb out of kb of conventional memory zero from upper level memory and all kb of my ems memory and to top it off i can t load any device drivers into upper memory do i just need more memory also why would it use up ems memory instead of upper memory please reply by e mail only to wes tamvenus tamu edu bill scrivener it s not the first time that you texas a m university sleep with a woman that matters college station texas but the first time email wes tamvenus tamu edu you wake up with her
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re trident cl x driver in article c qkua chn da vinci it uswc uswest com dfeldman lookout mtt it uswc uswest com david feldman says please excuse if faq but new trident cl based card claims to have x support drivers with card indicate several x drivers on diskette windows does not make all drivers on diskette available to configuration dialog box any suggestion thanx please e mail dfeldman uswest com since we are in the subject i have one more question i have a trident c video card i want to know what is the latest video driver for it so far all i can find is that an old driver dated aug in garbo uwasa fi anyone have any info please e mail me at axh psuvm psu edu az
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re atm in article downs helios nevada edu downs helios nevada edu lamont downs writes so good that there isn t any diff whether or not atmanager is turned on or not is it worth it to run atm at all especially with these better printer technologies and tt there are some fonts that are only available as ps fonts if you have a ps font that you want to use use atm otherwise it is a waste of system resources or if you need to use a service bureau and they re only set up to use type fonts from what i ve heard pure hearsay the results of outputting tt fonts as type is not as good as using high quality type fonts in the first place unless you print to file with the correct resolution set for the final output device image setter a problem with tt fonts in windows is that they do get converted to t format ok and the hinting is even used while this is done but the resulting t fonts are not hinted the result is that they will work fine on a device of the resolution assumed by the printer driver when the ps file is generated but they will not look good when printed at a different resolution so when you print to an attached ps printer with the ps driver set up for this printer results may be quite good but if you take a ps file made for that printer and run it on a device of different resolution such as an image setter then the results may not be so good
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	winqvt net v an earlier article in this newsgroup made reference to winqvt net version realy where i tried archie with no luck it s probably just a typo but i sure would like to get one if it s real as i too have a printer problem in winqvt david a fuess dir center for eecs phone fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	new windows drivers for cirrus gd graphic cards i have uploaded the most recent windows drivers for the cirrus gd chip based display cards to the uploads directory at ftp cica indiana edu file is dr zip they re very recent i downloaded them from the cirrus bbs last night if you are unable to get them there email me and maybe i can upload them to some other sites as well i have a local bus based card vl bitblaster from micron but i think the drivers work with isa cards or at least includes drivers for them i found the new drivers to be a significant improvement over the version improving my graphic winmarks v by about million to although this could be the result of intentional benchmark cheating on cirrus s part but i don t think so from steve gibson s columnist for info world graphic card comparisons also found at the cica ftp site under the name winadv zip i extracted the following for the sake of comparison wintach winbn word sprsht cad paint overall steve s system vlb ati graphics ultra pro my system sx vlb vl bitblaster its no viper but i think its a hell of a deal at about a third of the cost of the ati card and when compared to the other cards included in gibson s review micron system owner s i would be interested to hear your opinions on the dtc vl local bus disk controller my system came with a maxtor drive mb and at first was only giving me disk winmarks of about kb s i am now at kb s is this about as good as it gets i can t get a norton s sysinfo disk reading because the contoller intercepts the calls at least that was what the program said oliver weatherbee oliver earthview
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re adaptec scsi device driver for win 
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re canon bj bubblejet and hp deskjet the deskjet is slow this is in comparison to the other printers i mentioned i have no idea how the bubblejet compares the interface between win and the printer is just dandy i ve not had any problems with it i just bought a bj printer a couple of days ago i compared it to the sample print of an hp deskjet and knew that the hp wasn t for me the bj is pretty fast and really prints with good quality i can compare it with the hp laserjet iiid postscript and they look almost identical depending on the kind of paper i don t have problems with the ink not being dry it seems to dry very fast probably within a second since canon is giving a rebate until the end of may it is really a good buy sean eckton computer support representative college of fine arts and communications d hfac brigham young university provo ut hfac csr byu edu ecktons ucs byu edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re utility for updating win ini and system ini in article apr lut ac uk a d bailey lut ac uk adrian d bailey writes in windows there is a built in called sysedit exe that is just what you need windows i don t know it s there tony annese claebaur shell portal com or claebaur cup portal com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	data corruption i quit windows normally to run a special dos app got done with it and tried to start windows ok got the title screen windows background dos with an error about loading progman exe hum yep progman exe is still there must be bad ok pull off progman exe from a backup tape start windows get the windows title screen windows background dos with the same error hum fire up the good ol norton disk doctor test lost clusters ok fix them and look through them doesn t look important remove the windows directory and reinstall from disks fire up windows title screen background program manager success i have a amy with meg of ram meg hd svga running under dos no special memory managers or stuff just the basic windows a meg permanent swap file using bit access i mainly use windows to run more that one dos app at a time ie downloading with qmodem with a dos window open and possibly pov running in the background i ve noticed that since i started using windows a few months ago lost clusters have gotten more and more common although i don t like having data just disappear it really haven t been a problem except for today has anyone else had any problems with lost clusters while running windows and what could i do to fix the problem i d sleep better knowing amy wasn t loosing her marbles steven steven marcotte sdoran matt ksu ksu edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re winqvt net v in article lorien ocf llnl gov dave angmar llnl gov dave fuess writes an earlier article in this newsgroup made reference to winqvt net version realy where i tried archie with no luck it s probably just a typo not a typo it was uploaded to ftp cica indiana edu a couple days back but i sure would like to get one if it s real as i too have a printer problem in winqvt version uses standard windows printer drivers ashok ashok aiyar mail ashok biochemistry cwru edu department of biochemistry tel cwru school of medicine cleveland ohio fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re more cool bmp files james dlss james cummings writes in article apr gmuvax gmu edu rwang gmuvax gmu edu john wang writes hi everybody i guess my subject has said it all it is getting boring looking at those same old bmp files that came with windows so i am wondering if there is any body has some beautiful bmp file i can share or maybe somebody can tell me some ftp site for some bmp files like some scenery files some animals files etc i used to have some unfortunately i delete them all anyway could me give me some help please in response to a different kinda wallpaper here s what i use i think the original gif whatever was called not real the artist name and logo is in the lower right corner you will need vga i think and i have this sized for x color screens use this in your windows directory and do not tile it hope you enjoy deleted a lot of stuff how do you convert this to a bit map
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dos quick c crashes windows i am using dos quick c in a dos window under windows and the other day while i was running the compiler i got a general protection fault immediately followed by a serious disk error when i rebooted i found that about files had gotten cross linked which is a pretty serious corruption of the hard drive file system i am concerned that quick c in a dos window has somehow strayed outside its protected mode world and corrupted the smartdrv exe disk cache and that is what caused the disk problem i thought that dos programs run in dos windows were pretty well contained by windows if that is true then maybe the quick c compiler has nothing to do with it has anybody else had this type of problem i only recently upgraded from quick c to brad banko brad banko dept of physics u of illinois b banko uiuc edu see one do one teach one de kb cne n lnq il
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	turbo c visual edition adn request was re absolute newbie questions in article wiggins apr buttercup cs odu edu wiggins buttercup cs odu edu samuel e wiggins writes btw how would you rate the new borland turbo c visual edition for windows anyone time for a new discussion maybe i asked in these groups some time ago what about the tc ve and got no answers so i decided to try my brother who lives in the us bought and sent it to me and i m still trying to get used to it before i put my good bad points list consider i am a turbo pascal dos programmer and sometimes try to make something in unix with c just some exercises from university i used to make some programs in microsoft c version because we used some third party libraries that required that i like borland it seems to me much more easier to use than microsoft specially the debugger i tried to learn codeview sometimes but never felt confortable with it tc v e seems very nice to create simple apps like the examples on the objectwindows book so far no problems lets see next week or so when i will try something more complex it works nice even in my weak machine mhz mb ram but the manual for the resource workshop seems to be from a different version from the workshop itself some of the windows that appear on the manual have more itens than in the manual i think i will run into trouble since i got this tc ve from my brother as a present i didnt wanted to buy the japanese version because i suspect that the manuals will be in japanese and i believe it will be far more expensive here so he bought it as a present and sent to me i send the registration card to the japanese branch of borland but who knows so i d like to ask some questions for you all i know that there are some microsoft guys around here in this group is there anybody from borland is there any e mail address that we can contact the technical support not for stupid questions but to ask for example why the rw manual seems to be different from the rw itself is there anybody else using it around here will the book of petzold be useful for me i intend to use rw and protogen to make the interfaces and then work on the code itself answers to my e mail or comp os ms windows programmer tools please thanks in advance rafael
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re ms windows access for the blind in article mtrottie emr emr ca mtrottie emr emr ca marc trottier writes in article apr cci cci com jfb cci cci com john bruno writes from jfb cci cci com john bruno subject ms windows access for the blind date thu apr gmt we are developing an ms windows based product that uses a full screen window to display rows of textual data is there any product for microsoft windows that will enable blind individuals to access the data efficiently quickly please email responses and i will post a summary to this group thanks for any help john bruno apparently microsoft came out with a new product ms braille it is suppose to be wytiwig no offense marc trottier mtrottie emr emr ca at the micro oft display at fose there were a few computers running windows and win apps for the blind i think didn t pay much attention to it but it was there mickey pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how do make a ms windows grp file reflect a hd directory well i ain t always right but i ve never been wrong gd
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	is it possible hello is it possible to know minimize program manager when starting an application and to restore it when the application is ended if possible please tell me how to do it forever michael jordan tony g wu gtonwu uz nthu edu tw cae rheology lab nthu tony che nthu edu tw
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help disappearing groups salutations i don t usually subscribe to these newsgroups so i would really appreciate it if someone could possibly e mail me the answer to my problem i have been using windows since buying it last winter but i have just now come across an annoying bug i now have about different groups in program manager but it seems that everytime i install something new that makes a new group it promptly disappears after i turn of windows this happened when i installed excel and winfax pro v they both created their own groups but when i turned off windows and reran them they were gone i had to manually pull them up as new items and put them in a previously existing group as all new gropus disappear as soon as i turn off windows my set up precision dx w megs trident c with meg windows running in x colour mode logitech mouseman thank you in advance emile woo ewoo unixg ubc ca emile woo student representative to senate sig unavailable holding internet ewoo unixg ubc ca referendum to decide politic tel ally correct witticism
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	bungee after dark module uploaded hey folks just moments ago i uploaded the bungee jumper after dark module that was widely talked about on here some time ago it s at ftp cica indiana edu in pub pc win uploads titled simply bungee zip be sure to set your ftp connection to binary mode before downloading if you have any other after dark shareware freeware modules please upload them too the more the merrier andrew andrew bennett ajbennett miavx acs muohio edu what planet are you from
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re dos vfintd and windows sys ini peter p lei lei rtsg mot com wrote does anyone know what the vfintd device is used for in windows it s under the enh section as device c dos vfintd i know norton desktop for windows includes this file and its help file mentioned something about floppy disk access jeroen j c a gremmen email jeroeng blade stack urc tue nl gildelaan phone no modem or fax pleez ph hilvarenbeek
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re how can i use the mouse in non windows in article iq netcom com kasajian netcom com kenneth kasajian writes wnkretz ikesg energietechnik uni stuttgart de oliver kretzschmar writes hey could somebody tell me how it is possible to work with the mouse in a non windows application which runs in an window we use ms windows and have clipper applications exists there any routines or something else please mail me your informations thanks for your efforts oliver name o kretzschmar inst ike university stuttgart phone pfaffenwaldring fax stuttgart email wnkretz ikesg energietechnik uni stuttgart de very simple you have to have the mouse com or mouse sys loaded in dos before you run windows note that you don t need to have these files loaded to use the mouse in windows and you need a video driver which is completely windows compatible and your mouse driver has to be completely compatible as well not quite so simple i never could get my logitech mouse to work in a dos window with my old paradise card now i have a diamond ss x and the mouse drivers and everything works perfectly steven m
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re grey scale while in windows kevin marshall operational support motorola ecid swindon uk e mail marshalk zeus phone international domestic
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	workspace managers for win a small review thanks to all those people who recommended workspace managers for windows i found shareware workspace managers from australia s ms windows archive monu cc monash edu au which mirrors some sites in the u s the three i found were workspaces wspace zip this was the smallest and simplest of the workspace managers that i found it is very easy to use it displays a small window containing buttons plus an extra button for configuration purposes one annoying feature was the title window that is first presented when it is run you must press a key not a mouse button for the thing to go away also it would have been nice if there was an always on top setting for the little window containing the workspace buttons maybe some user specified strings on the buttons instead of the numbers one to six might be a nice feature the simplicity and ease of use of this workspace manager makes it an attractive package workshift wrksft zip while this workspace manager offered a few features that workspaces lacked it was quite time consuming to set things up with workspaces all but the first workspace is initially empty with workshift you need to take snapshots of how you want each of your workspaces to look like i e what applications they contain also the main window is quite large but this does allow you to have a small view of what is in each workspace with workspaces there was no facility for viewing what was in a workspace without switching to it workshift provides this viewing functionality which is quite useful bigdesk and backmenu backdesk zip this is an interesting package which contains a few other goodies as well as a workspace manager other goodies include backmenu which provides a pop up root menu when you press a certain mouse button just like in x windows the menu is totally configurable offering unlimited depth of cascading menus which is provides quite handy access to applications you could say it is a menu based alternative to the program manager also bundled in backdesk zip is a program called wrun which allows you to run windows applications from a dos shell under windows instead of using the file manager to run applications the actual workspace manager is called bigdesk bigdesk works quite differently to the other two workspace managers in that it doesn t provide a certain number of disjoint and separate workspaces in fact it basically enlarges your desktop by a configurable amount and you choose which region of the desktop you want your screen to focus in on this means you can have windows overlapping between different viewing regions unlike the first two workspace managers in which each workspace was isolated from the other one the bigdesk control window allows to to move windows around your enlarged desktop basically the control window provides a small scale view of your viewing area while your actual computer screen provides a large scale or blow up of a particular section try each of them out for yourself i was impressed with all of them so find out which one suits your needs the best
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re wp pcf linux risc in article c rx b kzp ecf toronto edu leebr ecf toronto edu lee brian writes in article qu ud hd sunb ocs mq edu au eugene mpce mq edu au writes in article c o yq m csie nctu edu tw ghhwang csie nctu edu tw ghhwang writes dear friend the risc means reduced instruction set computer the risc usually has small instruction set so as to reduce the circuit complex and can increase the clock rate to have a high performance you can read some books about computer architecture for more information about risc hmm not that i am an authority on risc but i clearly remember reading that the instruction set on risc cpus is rather large the difference is in addressing modes risc instruction sets are not as orthogonal is cisc theoretically supposed to be reduced not any longer that s why everyone is arguing about risc v s cisc personally i think cisc will win out just take a look at the pentium not that i like intel architectures either but that s another story bye do you mean that the pentium is better than a risc or that it will outsell them all if the first you have to remember that intel cisc like the pentium are a always a generation away from the best riscs also riscs cpu are more costly because they are not sold in the same quantities not even on the same order but i remember reading about years maybe about a t from hypercube that did a mips was superscallar and reordered its instruction itself so
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dmqs files for xga was re catseye x xga extra modes note the followups are set to comp os os misc dmqs files describe monitors and valid modes to be used by the xga under both windows and os these files are unsupported ibm has nothing to do with these files or this post it s personal this time and every time i post see the signature due to demand and requests here are some additional dmqs files i ve collected for the xga these files function with the latest revision of the drivers for the xga not all these files will work under windows with the drivers available to the general public at this time all files will function under the most recent os beta and those i ve tried have worked under os sp not all files have been fully tested these files are unsupported they represent a personal collection not anything resembling an officially supported set as a standard disclaimer i would like to point out the following facts some of these files may run your adapter out of spec doing so can stress the ics on the card and may result in incorrect operation or in shorter life how short depends on how much out of spec boom some of these files may run your adapter in a region that is out of spec for your monitor resulting in damage to your monitor you should be knowledgable about your monitor and adapter s ability to use the mode you select using these files represents hacking in a very true sense so practice safe computing and don t play around too much if you don t like the risks and aren t knowledgable about what you re doing if you feel uncomfortable with all the warnings use the dmqs files you have or wait until ibm releases official tested dmqs files although you should be aware of warning even with the ibm files these files are unsupported by using them you may invalidate your warrenty not all have been fully tested i don t have that many monitors installation unpack in your dmqspath environment variable usually c xga dmqs then use the methods described in your xga installation diskette to change your adapter or settings packing these files have been packed with the latest infozip utility you will need pkzip x if you don t have the infozip utilities submitting feel free to send me uuencoded versions of your favorite dmqs files for your favorite monitors i m always interested in collecting more archive these files have been uploaded to ftp os nmsu edu in pub uploads xga dmqs zip dick kaul my opinions only not official ibm positions offers ibm visual subsystems data or anything else if i were to speak for ibm boca raton fl they d make me wear a suit kaul vnet ibm com beware of programmers carrying screwdrivers
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	utility to expand dos file descriptions in directory listing i am looking for a windows utility that would give me a listing of files in a directory but also display a description of the file this utility would allow me to enter and edit file descriptions of hopefully any length maybe a small window with a scroll bar i would then be able to browse my directories and be able to see what is in a file without having to open or execute it any such beast out there if not anyone want to write one joe barrus barrus nosc mil
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	info on books on bios etc hi everybody i am interested in the following topics bios programming on and memory management in and developing visual basic custom controls i would like to have your valuable opinion on the books that are best in the above topics please send a mail to rmehta paul rutgers edu i will post a summary of the suggestions thanks in advance rahul mehta
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	sigma designs video sound card does anyone out there use a sigma designs video sound card the model is called win storm pc they also have one model the legend lx any info on these like performance and compatibility or even problems encountered will be appreciated thanks srini w seetharam
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	program manager two questions is it possible to change the icons in the program groups i d like to give them some individuality can you set up a short cut key to return to the program manager i know ctl esc esc will do it but i d rather set it up so i can avoid the task list and get back to the p m with alt f any and all help is welcomed help stamp out stupid signature files gerry swetsky wb ebo vpnet public access unix and usenet home vpnet lisbon vpnet chi il us
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ss x questions just got a ss x based on its good ratings but am a little under impressed first is it s performance in mill supposed to be comparable to a trident or other unaccelerated vga i came up with only ok performance on winspeed in it was between good and great second does anyone know where to get that jpg viewer for the ss x i saw it on cica or something does it work better thanks for any help greg i i i gregory s king i the quality of life is i i aeronautical engineering i directly proportional to i i cal poly slo i how fast you drive i
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re canon bj bubblejet and hp deskjet in c byu edu ecktons ucs byu edu sean eckton writes the deskjet is slow this is in comparison to the other printers i mentioned i have no idea how the bubblejet compares the interface between win and the printer is just dandy i ve not had any problems with it i just bought a bj printer a couple of days ago i compared it to the sample print of an hp deskjet and knew that the hp wasn t for me the bj is pretty fast and really prints with good quality i can compare it with the hp laserjet iiid postscript and they look almost identical depending on the kind of paper i don t have problems with the ink not being dry it seems to dry very fast probably within a second since canon is giving a rebate until the end of may it is really a good buy how much is the bj going for i got mine for which was in the end the deciding factor for me cindy cindy tittle moore internet tittle ics uci edu bitnet cltittle uci bitnet uucp ucbvax ucivax tittle usnail po box irvine ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re program manager two questions in article apr vpnet chi il us lisbon vpnet chi il us gerry swetsky writes is it possible to change the icons in the program groups i d like to give them some individuality can you set up a short cut key to return to the program manager i know ctl esc esc will do it but i d rather set it up so i can avoid the task list and get back to the p m with alt f i use plugin an enhancement to program manager it allows for sure i don t know on anyway give it a try i like it a lot and registered it right away it can be found at ftp cica indiana edu in pub pc win util plugin zip bruce bruce f steinke never know when you re going to bsteinke dsd es com need a good piece of rope software technical support engineer sam gamgee evans sutherland computer corp my mail my opinions
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	trident vga drivers hi i have a trident tvga video card and need the updated drivers for win where can i get them from an ftp site thanks bj
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re more diamond ss x in article apr samba oit unc edu dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina writes has anyone experienced a faint shadow at all resolutions using this card is only in windows i have replaced card and am waiting on latest drivers also have experienced general protection fault errors in wspdpsf drv on winword tools option menu and in winfax setup i had the exact same failure with the x and word for windows a quick call to microsoft indicated it was problem with the x drivers you need to call diamond and get the new drivers i think version fixes the above problem there may be later versions that i m unaware of dale r pischke dale odetics com or uunet odetics dale senior software engineer odetics gyyr division
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	tidying up after removing an ole server a while ago i installed spss for windows as part of an evaluation once the evaluation was complete i duly deleted the software from my pc unfortunately there is still a ghost of spss left when i run something like write and go to embed an object then spss chart appears on the list of objects i m offered i looked around all the obvious ini files without success the next thing i tried was looking for the string spss chart in every file in the windows directory it turned up in a file called req dat or reg dat unfortunately the file was binary and so i didn t feel inclined to edit it i d welcome a solution for removing spss from the list of ole servers chris wooff c wooff liverpool ac uk
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	file manager problem whenever i start file manager the status bar is not displayed even though it is selected in the options menu if i deselect it then select it again the bar appears anyone have any ideas why this is happening thanks mike
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re help disappearing groups in article r anlinn g skeena ucs ubc ca ewoo unixg ubc ca emile woo writes program manager but it seems that everytime i install something new that makes a new group it promptly disappears after i turn of windows did you check that a new grp file was actually created in your windows directory are you turning off your computer when windows is running rather than closing program manager ekkehard
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	list of favorite windows goodies is anyone maintaining a list of favorite shareware and public domain windows software i have several such lists for msdos but they are really light on windows stuff david arnstein international imaging systems arnstein iis sun com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	hhy won t my dos apps run in a window can somebody help me out there i have just purchased win and i just can t get dos apps text mode apps to run in a window on their own i ve tried mucking around with the pif settings etc but to no avail what am i doing wrong i didn t get this problem under v thanks in advance jason
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re win nt what is it in article c qofw aa usenet ucs indiana edu ntaib silver ucs indiana edu iskandar taib writes in article bcf c a deneva sdd trw com reimert etdesg trw com scott p reimert writes somewhere in this thread it has been said that windows nt tm is a multi user os as well as multi threading etc i certainly haven t seen this to be the case there are seperate accounts for each person and even seperate directories if that is desired i don t see an implentation of simultaneuos use though since running any gui over a network is going to slow it down by a fair amount i expect windows nt will be multiuser only in the sense of sharing filesystems someone will likely write a telnetd for it so one could run character based apps but graphics based apps will have to be shared by running the executables on the local cpu this is how things are shaping up everywhere client server architectures are taking over from the old cpu terminal setups note that the next does this you can always telnet into a next and run character based apps but you can t run the gui yeah i know about x windows just haven t been too impressed by it iskandar taib the only thing worse than peach ala internet ntaib silver ucs indiana edu frog is frog ala peach bitnet ntaib iubacs i read this in an electronic magazine about nt and for all the hoopla about nt one would think the thing would be multi user but it s not it supports only one user at a time it can support multiple clients but only one actual user your mileage may vary this posting does not represent the opinions of my employers i m afraid i ll have to ask you to leave the store mam ash aod
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re more diamond ss x in article apr odetics com dale odetics com dale pischke writes in article apr samba oit unc edu dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina writes has anyone experienced a faint shadow at all resolutions using this card is only in windows i have replaced card and am waiting on latest drivers also have experienced general protection fault errors in wspdpsf drv on winword tools option menu and in winfax setup i had the exact same failure with the x and word for windows a quick call to microsoft indicated it was problem with the x drivers you need to call diamond and get the new drivers i think version fixes the above problem there may be later versions that i m unaware of version drivers are current steve chesney slc catherine cim cdc com metaphase technology inc voice north lexington avenue fax arden hills mn
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mewin latex help i posted this to the apps group and didn t get any response so i ll try here i am trying to use the latex help feature available in emacs for windows and read that you need a separate latexhlp zip file along with a vms hlp zip file to convert this to windows help has anyone found these files or gotten this command help to work thanks steve herrod
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re why is my mouse so jumpy ms mouse ecktons ucs byu edu sean eckton writes i have a microsoft serial mouse and am using mouse com was using i think but switched to to see if it was any better vertical motion is nice and smooth but horizontal motion is so bad i sometimes can t click on something because my mouse jumps around i can be moving the mouse to the right with relatively uniform motion and the mouse will move smoothly for a bit then jump to the right then move smoothly for a bit then jump again maybe this time to the left about inch this is crazy i have never had so much trouble with a mouse before anyone have any solutions does microsoft think they are what everyone should be just venting steam i had the same problem at first i thought it was the video driver and made sure i had the most current drivers because the problem was most evident at svga resolution modes it didn t help and after a bit of experimentation determined that the problem existed in standard vga resolution mode it was just much less noticeable my mouse was an older ms serial version i bought second hand in it worked just fine in dos and dos based graphic applications on the guess that the problem was with the resolution of the mouse i borrowed a new mouse a ms bus model and tried it that solved the problem so if your mouse is old you may want to try replacing it for a newer one sean eckton computer support representative college of fine arts and communications d hfac brigham young university provo ut hfac csr byu edu ecktons ucs byu edu signoff russ lister rlister cti com or well connected systen uunet cti rlister comprehensive technologies int l inc arlington va
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	twain drivers for logitech scanman hi i was wondering if anyone knew whether or not logitech had windows twain drivers for the scanman if so are the drivers on the net somewhere my scanman is the model one down from the scanman thanks in advance ross barclay ross barclay rbarclay trentu ca peterborough ontario
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ms windows sound system text to speach hi all news group users does anyone know whether there is some software which will let one do text to speach like the sound blaster does hal adam hadam bcsc gov bc ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	simple windows question ok here s a nice easy question for all you out there when running dos under windows i lose the ability to do a print screen i have no problem with this when i m running dos not under windows if it s relavant i m using quarterdeck expanded memory manager for my please e mail any responses since i don t get to read the news too often thanks in advance jr eve albany edu jr albnyvms bitnet go heavy or go home
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re winqvtnet with ndis on token ring in article apr datamark co nz thomas datamark co nz writes in article apr liris tew kuleuven ac be wimvh liris tew kuleuven ac be wim van holder writes is it possible to use winqvt net on a machine that uses ndis to connect to a token ring i tried it with older versions but got an invalid packet class error or something the like how are you attempting to do that are you using the dis pkt program this provides a packet driver on top of the ndis driver i tried to do so but people told me that even if i used dispkt the packets would still be incompatible is this true thomas beagle thomas datamark co nz work o technical writer thomas cavebbs welly gen nz home wellington nz hound for hire will work for dog biscuits wim van holder katholieke universiteit leuven tel departement t e w fax dekenstraat b leuven e mail wimvh liris tew kuleuven ac be belgium fdbaq cc kuleuven ac be
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	eps display software does any one know of any shareware freeware software which lets one display eps files on a pc with dos and or windows your reply would be much appreciated thanks hal adam hadam bcsc gov bc ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re out of environment space running bat files from windows i have a bat file that i run under a windows icon i have set up a pif file to run the bat file in exclusive mode and to use the entire screen the first line of the bat file sets an environment variable my problem is that on some of our machines running ms dos and windows in enhanced mode the set command in the bat file fails with the out of environment space error i have raised the amount of environment space to bytes using the shell command in config sys so i know that i am nowhere near to running out from the windows resource toolkit for win workgroups add an entry to your system ini file under the nonwindowsapp section commandenvsize nnnn this sets the command com env size where nnnn must either be or between and a value of disables the setting if this value is too small or too big it is rounded up to or down to if the value is less than the current size of the actual environment this setting is disabled as if it were if you specify the environment size in a pif file for command com the pif setting overrides this setting the default is with msdos versions earlier than otherwise the default value is the e option in the shell command in config sys to set this value you must edit your system ini and reboot i have used this entry as well as relied on the default e from the config sys shell line and both give larger environments if you don t use one of these then the environment passed by windows to each new dos box is just a little bit bigger than the environment variables present when windows was started no matter how big the dos env was when windows starts it truncates all unused space except for a few bytes this should allow your batch file to run but your mileage may vary jerome jerry schneider domain jls atg com aspen technology group uucp uunet csn atglab jls po box ft collins co voice
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows backgrounds help i m bored with the current windows backgrounds we have here and am looking for some nifty pictures to use instead i ve seen from previous posts that many sites exist that store pictures available through anonymous ftp except that i can t ftp to remote sites from my machine what i can do is use ftpmail mail a list of commands to a server and receive a mail of files and or data back does anyone know of sites with windows compatible pictures that can be accessed in such a way if you do would you please post them tia mark ps maybe this would make a useful faq mark whalley gec mrc co uk only in silence the word phone exn only in darkness light the views expressed here are mine only in dying life all mine and nothing whatsoever to bright the hawk s flight on the do with gec mrc empty sky ursula k le guin
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re wp pcf linux risc in article c w j jll nyongwa cam org angcl nyongwa cam org claude angers writes in article c rx b kzp ecf toronto edu leebr ecf toronto edu lee brian writes in article qu ud hd sunb ocs mq edu au eugene mpce mq edu au writes in article c o yq m csie nctu edu tw ghhwang csie nctu edu tw ghhwang writes dear friend the risc means reduced instruction set computer the risc usually has small instruction set so as to reduce the circuit complex and can increase the clock rate to have a high performance you can read some books about computer architecture for more information about risc hmm not that i am an authority on risc but i clearly remember reading that the instruction set on risc cpus is rather large the difference is in addressing modes risc instruction sets are not as orthogonal is cisc theoretically supposed to be reduced not any longer that s why everyone is arguing about risc v s cisc personally i think cisc will win out just take a look at the pentium not that i like intel architectures either but that s another story bye do you mean that the pentium is better than a risc or that it will outsell them all if the first you have to remember that intel cisc like the pentium are a always a generation away from the best riscs also riscs cpu are more costly because they are not sold in the same quantities not even on the same order but i remember reading about years maybe about a t from hypercube that did a mips was superscallar and reordered its instruction itself so i m not sure but i think the t was a mhz transputer so ya tie a gazillion of them together to get mips the newest is the t which kicks anyone s butt haven t seen them used much though anyway to respond i think the pentium cisc is better than the more advanced risc e g like the alpha etc the mhz pentium has approximately the same performance as the superduper mhz alpha here performance is the weird specint that everyone refers to this is what i heard the alpha still kicks in the p s butt in fp again this is what i heard and in the computing world if you sell lots of chips like intel and make it faster like intel you are the winner like intel even though you have a sucky architecture from over years ago like intel if you can make a cisc chip superscalar superduperpipelined superfast with the ideas behind the risc ideology you got a cisc chip and then i admit i can t see the advantages of risc over cisc if the latest technology is a generation behind then it sucks relatively speaking now i may sound like i like intel but i ll have to say that the p is some real kick butt pile of si and sio but i hope that motorola really catches up with the k line or i m gonna start crying brian brian hojo lee hey excuse me miss could i have a gif of you leebr ecf toronto edu leebr eecg toronto edu try linux the best and free un x clone
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re more cool bmp files deleted a lot of stuff how do you convert this to a bit map you re supposed to delete everything above the cut here mark and below the lower cut here mark and uudecode it but i was not able to unexpected end of file encountered at the last line could you please re post it or tell be what i m doing wrong thanks i a mickey pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how do make a ms windows grp file reflect a hd directory well i ain t always right but i ve never been wrong gd
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	beta testers required for winsock version of windows trumpet contact me for details peter psychnet psychol utas edu au peter p tattam international phone programmer psychology department australia phone university of tasmania hobart tasmania australia
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re canon bj bubblejet and hp deskjet in article apr csd newshost stanford edu kayman csd d stanford edu robert kayman writes from kayman csd d stanford edu robert kayman subject canon bj bubblejet and hp deskjet keywords printer date apr gmt hello fellow netters i am asking for your collected wisdom to help me decide which printer i should purchase the canon bj bubblejet vs the hp deskjet i thought rather than trust the salesperson i would benefit more from relying on those who use these printers daily and use them to their fullest potential and i figure all of you will know their benefits and pitfalls better than any salesperson now i would greatly appreciate any information you could render on the dpi of the canon bubblejet vs the hewlett packard deskjet dpi which is faster is there a noticeable print quality difference particularly in graphics which will handle large documents better pages or more any personal experience on either will be appreciated here which works better under windows any driver problems etc cost of memory font packages toner cartridges etc basically your personal experiences with either of these machines is highly desirable both good and bad advance kudos and thanks for all your input e mail or news posting is readily acceptable but e mail is encouraged limits bandwidth sincerely robert kayman kayman cs stanford edu or cpa cs stanford edu in theory theory and practice are the same in practice they are not you mean you want the revised revision of the original revised revision revised all right not saying i know any more than the average salesguy i ll give your question a shot the key issue that i bought my bj on was ink drying speed you really have to try awful hard to get the bj ink to smear the hp deskjets need seconds to completely dry in both cases however do not get your pages wet unlike laser printers the material on your pages is ink not toner but that should go without saying my pc has very little memory only meg ram so the bj takes a little while to print but every application i use takes a while to run once the computer is solely printing it purs like a kitten and puts pages out every seconds depending on how detailed your graphics are the bj can do windows soft fonts i m assuming that the deskjet can or hp wouldn t sell many size is another factor the bj is much smaller but the hp is built like a tank i bet the bj would get damaged first finally the print quality i love the bj s resolution it looks like a good laser quality print the hp s i ve used they look like ink not as impressive so i chose the canon any other opinions
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	actix video card drivers for windows i am looking for the latest drivers for the actix graphics accelerator card the driver i am currently using is version and doesn t support more than colors in x mode even you have mb memory the bbs support for actix is unbelievable they are still using bps modem it will take you hours to download the drivers it hurts when you are calling long distance is there any ftp site that has a collection of video drivers for windows btw anyone using this card and how do you like it so far thanks daniel y h wong uoft wongda picton eecg toronto edu electrical engineering
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re nt questions in article news yale edu adriene nazaretian qm yale edu adriene nazaretian writes in article mar samba oit unc edu tclark med unc edu thomas b clark says is the driver support as seamless as program support e g will my soundblaster scanner cd rom tape backup continue to work even if there are no specific nt drivers there is a hardware compatibility guide to answer these questions there are many drivers for cd rom and there are midi and other sound drivers installed i dont do a lot with sound digitizing on this platform but recall seeing items for their configuration in the control panel applet there is built in support for tape backup systems as well my problem i wasn t aware of the fact that i would need an scsi cd rom for windows nt when ordering the beta sdk package so my question is there any driver available that will allow me to use my mitsumi non scsi cd rom for installation if there is one from which place ftp site can i get it many thanks in advance stefan kuehnel stefan k uhnel kuehnel rvs uni hannover de kuehnel swl uni hannover de neu ab die oben wiedergegebene meinung ist meine private und nicht die des rrzn des lg rvs der uh oder einer anderen institution
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re trident vga drivers in article c y r fgp cs mcgill ca bjcon cs mcgill ca brendan newman says hi i have a trident tvga video card and need the updated drivers for win where can i get them from an ftp site i have the same card tvga c when i checked the latest driver for windows is dated aug in garbo uwasa fi in win drivers video if you find a better version updated please let me know thanks azmi axh psuvm psu edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help with a windows drum machine hello i m trying to get a drum program to work that i downloaded from ftp cica indiana edu in the pub pc win sounds directory it s called drum zip i have an ati stereo fx card with the latest windows drivers installed when i try to run the drum program it reports that a midi device is not installed however the drivers utility in the control panel reports that it is installed anyone have any idea how to set up the midi device so that the drum program will work with my setup what i m trying to do is use my computer as a metronome someone suggested that i try one of the drum machines that are circulating around out there any help would be appreciated thanks terry terryh cae wisc edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how redirect print manager to file hello who can tell me where can i find the pd or shareware which can capture windows s output of printer mananger i want to capture the output of hp laser jet iii though the postscript can setup to print to file but hp can t i try dos s redirect program but they can t work in windows thankx for any help internet address u cc nctu edu tw english name erik wang chinese name wang jyh shyang national chiao tung university taiwan r o c
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re workgroup questions conven ram and licensing in article ny ra abh h eosvcr wimsey bc ca aew eosvcr wimsey bc ca writes i would be very appreciative if someone would answer a few questions about windows for workgroups i currently have novell netware lite which does not work with windows very well and is a conventional memory hog ver i am considering moving all our machines to w wg q how much conventional ram does w wg use over and above the driver for the network card i have just checked it and you have three files that are loaded protman bytes driver bytes workgrp bytes q if i have a novell ne card are the lsl and ipx drivers still needed no w wg uses it s own drivers q does w wg do a license check over the network to ensure each machine is running its own licenced copy of w wg note i do not want to break the license agreement and i will buy a copy of w wg for each of our machines it is just that i would like to try it out first to see if it meets our needs returning one opened copy is much easier than returning n opened copies not that i know of i bought two copies had some problems with one installed both from the same copie no problems do worry i just had a really old bios and that s the only problem i got q if you buy the upgrade to windows for w wg does it replace all of win as you install it or does it depend on current win files it will replace all older files i think and prompt you for the others q if i install windows nt on my server when it comes out will i have any troubles with the w wg machines this i do not know when i started this message i was going to ask only questions but i got carried away i ll stop now i look forward to your replies al hope this helps gel
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re simple windows question in article apr sarah albany edu jr eve albany edu diamond writes when running dos under windows i lose the ability to do a print screen i have no problem with this when i m running dos not under windows open up the pif file with the pif editor click on the advanced button and then reserve the prtsc key for the application any keys that you select in this section will be passed along to the application rather than being processed by windows bob nichols at t bell laboratories rnichols ihlpm ih att com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	overlapped window without a title bar hi i have a simple question is it possible to create a overlapped thickframe window without a title bar ie ws overlapped ws thickframe ws caption i don t seem to be able to get rid off the title bar i have another question i have a overlapped window say v which has few child windows a b c etc the window shows up with all it s children fine now i create another child t with a ws thickframe style and placed on top of one or more of it s siblings style ws thickframe is used so that i can resize it how do i make sure that the child t will always be at the top of it s siblings i used setwindowpos and bringwindowtotop without success what s happening is that while i am resizing t it shows up but as soon as i let go it goes behild it s siblings any help would be greatly appreciated manu please mail me at manu oas olivetti com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win comm drivers replacements question has anyone had any experience with a replacement comm driver for windows called turbocomm i read about it in pcmag apr and am interested but not willing to shell out the bucks the company wants just to try it out it supposedly eleminates the problems that occur during a high speed file transfer and a disk access made by another program running at the same time if anyone has any pro cons about this product i would be very inter ested to hear them please email at the address give below thanks matthew gibson gibsonm cs arizona edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re file manager problem in a previous article mrw eng nxt cso uiuc edu michael r whitchurch says whenever i start file manager the status bar is not displayed even though it is selected in the options menu if i deselect it then select it again the bar appears anyone have any ideas why this is happening no not really it may be that your winfile ini has gotten corrupted for some unknown reason have you tried re creating it by either exiting filemanager with the save setting option on when the status bar is visible or double clicking on the control menu the one with minimize and maximize in in when everything looks proper if you have and it still doesn t work you may want to delete your winfile ini and try one of these two saving procedures again to totally recreate the file from scratch good luck mark waschkowski
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re canon bj bubblejet and hp deskjet thomas d fellrath nd edu nd edu wrote the key issue that i bought my bj on was ink drying speed you really have to try awful hard to get the bj ink to smear the hp deskjets need seconds to completely dry in both cases however do not get your pages wet unlike laser printers the material on your pages is ink not toner but that should go without saying i think the ink now used in the deskjet family is water fast
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re trumpet for windows other news readers in article ashok biochemistry cwru edu ashok biochemistry cwru edu ashok aiyar writes in article apr liris tew kuleuven ac be wimvh liris tew kuleuven ac be wim van holder writes what the status of trumpet for windows will it use the windows sockets i liked it in dos but had to abandon it since i started using ndis to access our token ring results in invalid class error while i do not speak for peter tattam i am fairly sure he is planning a winsock compliant version while this will definitely not make the initial public release of wintrumpet it will follow on shortly thereafter currently wintrumpet is in very late beta it looks like an excellent product with several features beyond the dos version wintrumpet supports the trumpet tcp novell lwp and there is also a direct to packet driver version that some people are using with the dis pkt shim ashok ashok is wintrumpet available anywhere via anonymous ftp james r garven dept of finance cba voice graduate school of business fax university of texas internet jgarven mcl cc utexas edu austin tx u s a bitnet garven utxvm bitnet education is hanging on until you ve caught on robert frost
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	changing system fonts i would like to change all of the system fonts in windows i have a program that will generate system fonts from truetype but i was wondering if there is a problem to help you set up all your system fonts also how do i change the icon text color all of my icon text is black and i want to change it couldn t find any options in control panel or in win ini brad cain brad bach udel edu brad bach udel edu brad cain n naf cain snow white ee udel edu university of delaware electrical engineering cain freezer cns udel edu blah blah blah alt blah
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re tidying up after removing an ole server in article c y kz liverpool ac uk qq liverpool ac uk chris wooff writes a while ago i installed spss for windows as part of an evaluation once the evaluation was complete i duly deleted the software from my pc unfortunately there is still a ghost of spss left when i run something like write and go to embed an object then spss chart appears on the list of objects i m offered i looked around all the obvious ini files without success the next thing i tried was looking for the string spss chart in every file in the windows directory it turned up in a file called req dat or reg dat unfortunately the file was binary and so i didn t feel inclined to edit it i d welcome a solution for removing spss from the list of ole servers i think you can do this with regedit which can make changes to the ole registration database from program manager or file manager choose run and type regedit you do have it its included with windows but not well documented tom paladin world std com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re hhy won t my dos apps run in a window in article snz sigma demon co uk jason sigma demon co uk writes can somebody help me out there i have just purchased win and i just can t get dos apps text mode apps to run in a window on their own i ve tried mucking around with the pif settings etc but to no avail what am i doing wrong i didn t get this problem under v are you sure you re running in enhanced mode windows takes more memory
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	approach for windows article crossposted from comp os ms windows apps author was dr richard timmer posted on apr gmt hello winnetters i have seen a great deal of discussion herein on the relative merits of ms access and borland paradox win however are there any users out there with experience with the database package called approach it has gotten a number of very good reviews from the various mags and it seems like it would require less hardware overhead than paradox i have ruled out access because some aspects of it are extremely non intuitive e g requiring a field to always have a value i like what i ve seen of paradox but it seems like the resource requirements are greater than what i have mhz mb ram so please provide me with your thoughts are approach good and bad thanks richard timmer
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re mouse on com under windows in a previous article jpaparel cs ulowell edu joseph paparella says i ve pursued and researched this question over the last month or so because i have the same requirements you do and the long and short of it is that the windows mouse drivers don t accept mice at any but com and com using irq or irq unless you buy special drivers from someone who has them i ve talked to mouse systems who say their driver doesn t support other than com and com as above but who claim to be releasing one that will soon the other alternative seems to be possible but in one case prohibitively expensive i e port card for and in the other the author s of powerbbs for windows claim to have a port serial card with buffered uarts and drivers for windows to match i e com irq for the second paragraph is hearsay because i haven t checked it out yet but intend to as soon as i can free up g hope this will save you some steps i had this problem when i first loaded windows my i o card is for hd s fd s parrelel serial for mouse and for my external modem and a game port problem enters the darn serial ports have no selection for com settings they are stuck on and good card for hd s and fd s but lousy for serial i called microsoft and other places the long and short of it is windows wants com and only for mouse selection i went out and bought a small i o card just for parrelel and serial now i have all active com ports and lpt and lpt this half card was less than mouse on com external modem on com i disabled the lpt so i could use the interupt for my scanner card irq c ya artin this communication is sent by artin university of arizona tucson ak cleveland freenet edu mlinsenb ccit arizona edu mlinsenb arizvms death has been dead for about years follow the king of kings
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	word byte i just moved from borland c to visual c today when i tried to compile my c program it complained a function prototype problem it turned out that the typedef word in ms c is a byte not unsigned int could anyone shine some light on this subject why a word is a byte ming t lin mlin ichips intel com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	winnls dll i tried to install a foreign language windows application that required a file named winnls dll i checked all of my windows installation disks for this file but could not find it does anybody have any idea what this file is for and where one could get it from
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	canon buble jet printer hi can somebody tell me how much is canon bj and from where can i buy it for the cheapest price thanks in advance m o o
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	for sale harvard graphics for windows for sale brand new shrinkwrapped harvard graphics for windows list price cheapest pince in computer shopper mail order my price this is really a slick package but i won it in a bike race so i can t return it for credit my dilemma is your fire sale peter tapscott xerox palo alto research center internet tapscott adoc xerox com xns net tapscott parc xerox
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	x trident driver wanted is there a x trident driver for windows anywere this mode is supported by the drivers fo os but i have not been able to find it for windows x means wide and high as opposed to x any help is appreciated peter vestman dep of computing science university of umea sweden
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re winqvt net v in article ashok biochemistry cwru edu ashok biochemistry cwru edu ashok aiyar writes in article lorien ocf llnl gov dave angmar llnl gov dave fuess writes an earlier article in this newsgroup made reference to winqvt net version realy where i tried archie with no luck it s probably just a typo not a typo it was uploaded to ftp cica indiana edu a couple days back but i sure would like to get one if it s real as i too have a printer problem in winqvt version uses standard windows printer drivers ashok it s still in the pub pc win uploads directory as qvtnet zip note new email address tom carter carter photon cem msu edu michigan state university carter msucem bitnet chemistry department
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re exit codes dos sorry for wrong group in article apr seas gwu edu louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis writes hey now first of all sorry to post this dos question in a windows group but i m in kinda a hurry so i can t scramble to find the dos groups names anyway anyone know where i ccan find the exit codes to dos commands there are alternatives you can try to write a small c program something like int my int var my int var system command and display my int var value which is the exit code of the command or use dos com instead of command com it has built in move command you can also get any program exist code by using the exec function of dos c echo exec command will display the exit code of the command get dos not worth buying if you already have qemm pctools norton and you only need the move utility the manual doesn t seem to have all of them i m particularly looking for copy in order to make a move batch file such that if the file wasn t coppied properly it won t be deleted please e mail louray seas gwu edu thanks i a mickey pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how do make a ms windows grp file reflect a hd directory well i ain t always right but i ve never been wrong gd agus budy wuysang digitech student monash university clayton melbourne australia
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re more cool bmp files in article apr seas gwu edu louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis writes deleted a lot of stuff how do you convert this to a bit map you re supposed to delete everything above the cut here mark and below the lower cut here mark and uudecode it but i was not able to unexpected end of file encountered at the last line could you please re post it or tell be what i m doing wrong sounds like the original poster of the bitmap uuencoded the file on a dos machine and you tried to uudecode it on a un x machine and your uudecode program balked at the carraige returns
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	program manager kills my group files any clue some times when i enter win progman says that i need to rebuild a group it s quite annoying
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how to hold the control to a window object i m using bc s objectwindows version and trying to get some data processed in a window object however when the calling program invokes the window object it gives up the control to the window object and keeps executing the next statement i would like the calling program after invoking the window object to wait until the window object is closed can i do that my program may look like class mywindow public twindow void mycallingprog could the calling program be a c function mywindow mywinobj mywinobj new mywindow getapplication makewindow mywinobj mywinobj show sw shownormal next statement i want the program to wait here until mywinobj is closed so that i can get some data back from mywinobj i specified the window style to be ws popupwindow didn t help is there any other way to execute the window object so that the calling program won t give up the control any help would be appreciated thanks jun to talk to the lord with ps through ms windows
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re overlapped window without a title bar from article rc h ern olivea atc olivetti com by manu oas olivetti com manu das i have a overlapped window say v which has few child windows a b c etc the window shows up with all it s children fine now i create another child t with a ws thickframe style and placed on top of one or more of it s siblings style ws thickframe is used so that i can resize it how do i make sure that the child t will always be at the top of it s siblings i used setwindowpos and bringwindowtotop without success what s happening is that while i am resizing t it shows up but as soon as i let go it goes behild it s siblings the window is probobly on top but the lower windows are drawing over it try using ws clipsibling to keep the lower siblings from drawing on the top sibling s space ed ekalenda netcom com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re need longer filenames in article d t infoserv com hfeldman infoserv com howard mitchell feldman writes in apr guinness idbsu edu lhighley gozer idbsu edu larry paul highley wrote is there a utility out there that will let me use filenames longer than the standard format yep it s called os
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re atm rnichols cbnewsg cb att com robert k nichols writes truetype font files are at least larger than their type equivalents if you are using a disk compressor though be aware that truetype fonts will compress whereas type fonts will not they are encrypted this isn t entirely true it is true that truetype fonts are larger than their atm counterparts but atm fonts do get minimal compression running stacker report generator i get file type compression ratio ttf truetype pfb atm pfm atm metric although the metric files are small they compress quite largely and as you can see even the regular pfb files have some compression so doing the math on one such comparitive font file ttf times bytes bytes compressed pfb times bytes bytes compressed you still win out even if the atm times font isn t compressed your mileage may vary depending on compression program when heroes go down they go down fast john m grohol m s so don t expect any time to center for psychological studies equivocate the past nova univ ft lauderdale fl suzanne vega grohol novavax nova edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re beta testers required for winsock version of windows trumpet in a previous article peter psychnet psychol utas edu au peter r tattam says contact me for details peter psychnet psychol utas edu au peter this is posted on behalf of peter tattam there is a north american mirror with the beta test version of wintrumpet for winsock please contact me or peter for details ashok ashok aiyar department of biochemistry cwru axa po cwru edu for internet access telnet ftp in cleveland contact info wariat org telnet to wariat wariat org and login as bbs dial v bis or bps
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	please refresh on internet access to compuserve hi sometime ago there are some discussions on gaining compuserve access thru the internet but i seem to misplace those articles can someone please refresh me where which site i can telnet to to gain access hopefully i can download files as well thanks arthur lim email arthur mailhost scs com sg
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	i hate to make a decision hi well i really hate to make a decision but recently i have to choose whether stacker or dos with double space for my poor hd i am using windwos and i hope what i choose will live with windows any help will be appreciated forever michael jordan tony g wu gtonwu uz nthu edu tw cae rheology lab nthu tony che nthu edu tw
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	fast dos vga and x x windows video card info needed ok i have a dx isa w diamond stealth vram mb i was really satisfied w its performance in windows but now more and more games needs higher frame rates in dos vga especially this new strike commander this stealth vram can only give me fps i use dbench my winmark was million i think so right now i m considering to replace it w a new card which hopefully can perform approx same w my current vram in windows and also can perform dos vga preferably fps i also saw the dbench benchmark list from someone who compiled it in csipg and it looked that speedstar x and orchid prodesigner d s ware the fastest for non local bus motherboard both can give fps in dos vga w dx does anyone have a winmarks for both of those cards above with the processor type which one is the worthiest not necessarily fastest any other card recommendation is welcomed too also if possible where can i get this card for the cheapest thanks in advance folks martin
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re cica mirror try wuarchive wustl edu in the mirrors win directory
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re i hate to make a decision in article apr gtonwu uz nthu edu tw gtonwu uz nthu edu tw tony g wu writes hi well i really hate to make a decision but recently i have to choose whether stacker or dos with double space for my poor hd i am using windwos and i hope what i choose will live with windows any help will be appreciated forever michael jordan tony g wu gtonwu uz nthu edu tw cae rheology lab nthu tony che nthu edu tw stacker achieves better compression ratio than dos yet the latter comes with virus detection memory manager and multiple booting each of them are not so good as the nav qemm or ndos in my opinion but with a package of only it s nice if haven t yet installed all of those stuffs both certainly work with win rensheng horng
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re bernoulli drives disks nilayp violet berkeley edu nilay patel writes i am looking for bernoulli removable tapes for the drive don t laugh i am serious if you have any mb tapes lying around that you would like to get rid of please mail me nilay patel nilayp violet berkeley edu you do mean disks don t you not tapes you forgot to say whether you were looking for the old or the newer sorry just use them at work and don t think they would appreciate it nathan c moore the johns hopkins university applied physics laboratory ncmoore aplcomm jhuapl edu cis please note above address for email replies
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re more cool bmp files in article c yhr n i world std com paladin world std com thomas g schlatter says in article apr seas gwu edu louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis writes deleted a lot of stuff how do you convert this to a bit map you re supposed to delete everything above the cut here mark and below the lower cut here mark and uudecode it but i was not able to unexpected end of file encountered at the last line could you please re post it or tell be what i m doing wrong sounds like the original poster of the bitmap uuencoded the file on a dos machine and you tried to uudecode it on a un x machine and your uudecode program balked at the carraige returns well my newsreader shows the uue file as having lots of spaces which means it s broken before i even try to download it did anyone get it to uudecode successfully aengus rbyaml rohmhaas com aengus lawlor rbyaml rohvm bitnet who used to be alawlor dit ie how about some of that famous dublin wit barman certainly sir would that be dry or sparkling
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	bigger window headings does anyone know of bigger raster fonts i m using a mag h monitor with a diamond ss x in x mode and would prefer to have larger characters for the windows heading practically for everything i m already using the character sets mark any idea of the difference between the h and the f
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	soundblaster v drivers for win hi all could someone please tell me if there are drivers for windows for the new soundblaster or will the drivers be sufficient i would be appreciate any info thanks greg ennis gke cs williams edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	question about localtalk appleshare on ms dos system is anyone out there running a ms dos system with a localtalk board i am on an appletalk network hooked up with a daystar digital lt mc localtalk interface board running on a ps model i m using the appleshare pc software for file server and network access it works fine under dos or the window or os dos box but when i try to load it before windows so that every application i run could get access to it the machine crashes hard as soon as i start up an application and of course things look pretty hopeless for os but who knows so does anyone have experience with this bizarre and obsolete setup duncan duncans phoenix princeton edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	vb to msaccess dde communications a couple of weeks ago i posted a question concerning communicating between vb and msaccess using dde the answers i received at that time allowed me to get a prototype of my project working however during this process i have come up with new problems there seems to be a limit of characters for a dde topic string is this inherent in all dde systems or just peculiar to msaccess or vb it is easy to query an access database from vb using the dde sql command provided the above limitation is overcome by using short field and table names but how is one meant to update a database a a dde sql update command does not seem to work b initiating an access macro using a dde execute command from vb cannot be used because when the macro requests information from vb using a second dde channel the programs dead lock until time outs occur the vb to access channel has to close before the access to vb channel is initiated i guess c access does not allow vb to dde poke the information the way i eventually managed to update a database was by sending key strokes from vb to access using the sendkeys command this technique has the problem that access cannot be minimised and it must always be in a state ready to respond to the sequence of key strokes vb sends are all the above statements correct or have i made incorrect assumptions are there any better work arounds to the above are there any signs of an odbc driver for access bob ran doc ic ac uk
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	video cards with bnc connectors hello i just recently bought a nec fg in order to get the highest possible quality and refresh rates i d like to know if there are any accelerator cards with bnc connectors as opposed to the usual d sub connector thanks for any information mike mills e mail sam ms uky edu rutgers uunet ukma sam uk math sciences dept mike ukpr uky edu work home
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help object appears thrice hey all i got an equation editor and since it didn t automagically appear in my object dialog box i e insert object equation i decided to manually place it there so i went into win ini is there another way to do this the embedding section and added equation equation equation path filename picture didn t work quit windows go back aha mistake correct it it looks fine start windows doesn t work play with it for a while at one point having two entries to see if one works and th other don t and finally i get it to work the only thing i can see that s different now is that it s now the first item on the list and it used to be the last but now i end up with three equation entried and all of them working and only one entry in win ini so does any netian know what s wrong or rather how to correct this i e make equation appear but once also all the entries in the embedding appear as above it s obvious that path filename is the executable or whatever and picture has something to do withthe way it appears picture description but what are the others i e in soundrec sound sound whate s the difference between the st sound and the nd and what is soundrec i don t think it s the name of the executable as other entries e g msworkschart aren t thanks i a mickey pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how do make a ms windows grp file reflect a hd directory well i ain t always right but i ve never been wrong gd
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	realizing colours win ini setting changes to y automatically mornin all i was wonderin i got screenpeace the screensaver which i think is very good and i got a problem with it there is an option there realize colour table and if it s switched on some wallpapers colours will get ucked up with some screensavers e g the flashlight one if i turn it off however it works well and it s faster so i have it off all s nice and well however if i turn it off then it will be on again next time i start windows all the setting are set in the win ini file and i do have save settings on exit selected also i tried manually changing the setting in the win ini file to n for no realize colour table and started windows it will be fine for that session but the next session will again turn the option on i tried adding a r read only attribute to my win ini file and it worked but my bitmap wallpaper saver didn t work then actually it s the same application anywya it didn t work since it must change the setting at the win ini file so anyone out there got any answers suggesions comments for me thanks i a mickey aka mp pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how do make a ms windows grp file reflect a hd directory well i ain t always right but i ve never been wrong gd
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re program manager two questions in article apr vpnet chi il us lisbon vpnet chi il us gerry swetsky writes is it possible to change the icons in the program groups i d like to give them some individuality do you mean the icons of the program groups or the icons of the individual programs in the program groups i assume you mean the latter and the answer is sure you can just click once not double on the application icon then alt f p file properties click on the change icon box and tell it the icon filename or use the browse sub selection can you set up a short cut key to return to the program manager i know ctl esc esc will do it but i d rather set it up so i can avoid the task list and get back to the p m with alt f i use alt tab hold the alt key and repeatedly press tab until you see program mangler up then release the alt key stan brown oak road systems brown ncoast org english is my native language and i love it but don t try to tell me that it s easy to learn or that it makes sense if it were baseline would rhyme with vaseline
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	winword spelling dictionaries for non us english word for windows lets me designate text as being in a language other than us english alt f l format language as i recall so i mark it for english uk but it still accepts rumor and squawks at rumour as far as i can see microsoft didn t include the english uk dictionary on my disks i don t mean to imply that i was singled out i assume that nobody in the u s got them i dialed the microsoft bbs but nothing in the word for windows section looked helpful can anyone tell me where or how to obtain the uk spelling dictionary for winword the file name would be spell uk lex or something similar email please i ll post a summary stan brown oak road systems brown ncoast org english is my native language and i love it but don t try to tell me that it s easy to learn or that it makes sense if it were baseline would rhyme with vaseline
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re why is my mouse so jumpy ms mouse ecktons ucs byu edu sean eckton writes i have a microsoft serial mouse and am using mouse com was using i think but switched to to see if it was any better vertical motion is nice and smooth but horizontal motion is so bad i sometimes can t click on something because my mouse jumps around i can be moving the mouse to the right with relatively uniform motion and the mouse will move smoothly for a bit then jump to the right then move smoothly for a bit then jump again maybe this time to the left about inch this is crazy i have never had so much trouble with a mouse before anyone have any solutions does microsoft think they are what everyone should be just venting steam i think i have the same problem i think it is caused by the rubber ball in the mouse which doesn t roll so smooth the detectors in the mouse notice this and whoops i hit a mine using minesweeper i think the solution will be buying a new mouse and or using a mouse pad wouter
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re more diamond ss x from article apr samba oit unc edu by dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina has anyone experienced a faint shadow at all resolutions using this card is only in windows i have replaced card and am waiting on latest drivers also have experienced general protection fault errors in wspdpsf drv on winword tools option menu and in winfax setup i had a ati ultra but was getting genral protection fault errors in an spss application these card manufactures must have terrible quality control to let products on the market with so many bugs what a hassle running on gateway dx thx dave l you re using drivers version or earlier the latest is available from their bbs or by snailmail it at least fixes the wfw problem the reason i wanted to reply in public instead of private mail is because of following i talked to their tech support a few days ago and was told that i can expect a new version near the end of the month which should be about now however i have a problem when switching back from a dos session in standard mode apparently they don t know of this problem and seem to be surprised why anybody would want to use standard mode at all it s a great card for the price at least when i bought it now there may be better alternatives bo peng
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	winword grammer checker saved my liff fire up microsoft word for windows version c type the following paragraph if you want to rite really very dead good you just cant live without one of the wonderfully write aids what you re can get what helps me impress me boss under tools options grammar select use grammar and style rules strictly all rules and click ok run the grammar checker this also does a spelling check no complaints readability passive sentences flesch reading ease flesch grade level flesch kincaid gunning fog index tl someone buy malcolm bacchus some beer please
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re visual c it is correct that vc is not considered an upgrade for c c is basically a dos product vc is a windows product as windows is not an upgrade for dos it is a separate operating system product line its utilities cannot be upgrades for dos utilities however i have also been told that it is not an upgrade for qcwin which it should be in article aa therose pdx com don hancock f n z fidonet org don hancock writes my understanding is that visual c is msc is it not what i mean is it is intended as a logical upgrade to msc which i own i am very interested in vc but i can t find anything about it tell me more how s the editor is it a true windows app msc which i love is not how are compile times exe sizes how smart is the linker how well does it do dos apps i would like to be one of the few programmers still pumping out stuff for the dos users out there even though i run win i like the multitasking and i couldn t afford desqview will it link rd party libs easily i use lots of rd party libs in my dos programs too lazy to do my own interfaces how is the debugger i make lots of mistakes thanx if it wasn t for c we would be using basi pasal and obol blue wave qwk v david a fuess dir center for eecs phone fax lawrence livermore national laboratory
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help with changing startup logo i know this is probably a faq but i installed the s w for my ati graphics card and it bashed my windows logo files when i start windows now it has the logo instead of the logo i thought the files that controlled this were windows system vgalogo rle windows system vgalogo lgo i restored these files but it didn t change the logo anyone know what the correct files are thanks farley access digex com charles u farley average iq of calgary board of ed employee
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	protection fault hi i was wondering if anyone out there could help me i have an error message that goes what does it mean i am running ms windows thanks in advance
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re why is my mouse so jumpy ms mouse in article apr cti com rlister cti com russell lister writes ecktons ucs byu edu sean eckton writes i have a microsoft serial mouse and am using mouse com was using i think but switched to to see if it was any better vertical motion is nice and smooth but horizontal motion is so bad i sometimes can t click on something because my mouse jumps around i can be moving the mouse to the right with relatively uniform motion and the mouse will move smoothly for a bit then jump to the right then move smoothly for a bit then jump again maybe this time to the left about inch this is crazy i have never had so much trouble with a mouse before anyone have any solutions does microsoft think they are what everyone should be just venting steam i had the same problem at first i thought it was the video driver and made sure i had the most current drivers because the problem was most evident at svga resolution modes it didn t help and after a bit of experimentation determined that the problem existed in standard vga resolution mode it was just much less noticeable my mouse was an older ms serial version i bought second hand in it worked just fine in dos and dos based graphic applications on the guess that the problem was with the resolution of the mouse i borrowed a new mouse a ms bus model and tried it that solved the problem so if your mouse is old you may want to try replacing it for a newer one another alternative is to clean the mouse you ve got sometimes the rollers inside the mouse pick up a ball of lint or other debris open the bottom of the mouse take out the ball and use some alcohol on a q tip to clean it out inspect the inside for any hairs or fuzz i have had my mouse get real jumpy and cleared up the problem with this procedure
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	z modem up and download with winqvt hello all i d like to know how z modem upload is initiated in a winqvt script file to check how it works before registering unfortunatly nothing about that feature is mentioned in the manual can anybody help me ciao chris
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re exit codes dos sorry for wrong group internal dos commands certainly and before do not set the exit code this is a royal pain if you want to do anything which checks for successful deletions etc the best suggestion is to use dos which does return you exit codes it also has move command simon simon rowe srowe fulcrum co uk fulcrum communications ltd birmingham condition brain overload raised at england
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	w wg novell i installed windows for workgroups on my network and i m having problems mapping drives in the file manager situation if i put lastdrive z in my config sys netx will run but i can t access drive f to log in to novell if i don t put lastdrive z in my config sys i can t access other w wg drives from the file manager it seems that there should be a way to make netx work with the lastdrive statement in my config sys i would appreciate any help it s probably an easy problem that all you windows guru s solved many many moons ago thanks tom bilan department of death by engineering surgeon general s warning michigan state university graduate school may cause brain bilan cps msu edu damage and sporadic loss of hair
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	drivers for stealth i recently purchased a diamond stealth video card and received the wrong drivers does anyone know where i can ftp the proper drivers the dstlth file at cica does not work with this video card please respond to doug sun sws uiuc edu thank you doug ward
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows locks up with green lines down the screen hi i am using a dtk mhz meg memory to run a variety of programs and have had problems off and on with lock up but now i am trying to run an application that wants a lot of memory over a period of time playmation bit rendered and it is locking up everytime i have an ati ultra w meg which i have tried in each of the video modes i have excluded the region of video memory from a c segments from the use of emm have tried adjusting the swap partion from large to nonexistant to prevent swapping and i have rem d all tsr s and utilities in config syus and autoexec and even tried using the default program manager disabling my hp dashboard even with a minimal system no swap no smartdrv no tsr s no windows utilities and exclusion of video regions it still locks up completely no mouse control no response to anything except finger salute and even that does not stop by the standard windows screen but simply does a full reset immediately just about out of ideas anyone out there have any thanks tom branham branham binah cc brandeis edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re please refresh on internet access to compuserve cheong solomon technet sg scstech admin writes hi sometime ago there are some discussions on gaining compuserve access thru the internet but i seem to misplace those articles can someone please refresh me where which site i can telnet to to gain access hopefully i can download files as well this should be in the faq it only get asked about twenty times a month there is no that s right no telnet access to compuserve no ftp access no gopher access no internet services except e mail you can telnet to hermes merit edu but that routes you through sprintnet which is horrendously expensive tom gillman systems programmer aaaaagggghhhh wells computer center ga state univ any classic star trek security syshtg gsusgi gsu edu officer sometime during the show gsu doesn t care what i say on the internet why should you
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re help with changing startup logo in article farley access digex com charles u farley writes i installed the s w for my ati graphics card and it bashed my windows logo files when i start windows now it has the logo instead of the logo i thought the files that controlled this were windows system vgalogo rle windows system vgalogo lgo i restored these files but it didn t change the logo anyone know what the correct files are for a vga card these are the correct files but you can t just copy them back and expect it to work you have to create a new win com file try the command you will have to worry about what directories each file is in since i don t know your setup copy b win cnf vgalogo lgo vgalogo rle win com i grabbed this from supercharging windows by judd robbins great book this is also how you can put your own logo into the windows startup screen an rle file is just a specially compressed bmp file hope this helps brad smalling jr ee ga tech atlanta ga gt c prism gatech edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re how redirect print manager to file u cc nctu edu tw by swh writes who can tell me which program pd or shareware can redirect windows s output of printer manager to file i want to capture hp laser jet iii s print output though postscript can setup print to file but hp can t i use dos s redirect program but they can t work in windows thankx for any help internet address u cc nctu edu tw english name erik wang chinese name wang jyh shyang national chiao tung university taiwan r o c try setting up another hpiii printer but when choosing what port to connect it to choose file instead of like lpt this will prompt you for a file name everytime you print with that hpiii on file printer good luck brian servis servis author ecn purdue edu it happened this way actual quotes from insurance claims what i say may not be what i think what i say may not be the pedestrian had no idea which what purdue thinks way to go so i ran him over
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re protection fault in thia mira sce carleton ca thia sce carleton ca yong thia writes hi i was wondering if anyone out there could help me i have an error message that goes what does it mean i am running ms windows ummm i think you left the message out i get these protection faults all the time on my machine at work a mhz with mb ram windows with dos at home on a mhz mb ram windows and dos i never get these any idea what could be wrong someone already suggested i check for tmp files in the windows temp directory there are none there the message i get is this application has violated system integrity due to an invalid general protection fault and will be terminated i only have this problem with applications running in dos boxes with or without pif files setup for them any hints help greatly appreciated please post since at least one other person is also having gpf problems thanks gordon gordon edwards n vph nothing unreal exists ncr engineering manufacturing gedwards ncratl atlantaga ncr com kiri kin tha s first law of metaphysics
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re help with changing startup logo in article rgtba gtn access digex net farley access digex com charles u farley writes i know this is probably a faq but i installed the s w for my ati graphics card and it bashed my windows logo files when i start windows now it has the logo instead of the logo i thought the files that controlled this were windows system vgalogo rle windows system vgalogo lgo i restored these files but it didn t change the logo anyone know what the correct files are thanks somewhere ftp cica indiana edu or simtel mirror there is a program called winlogo zip that does the trick it works great i believe the reason why you can t change the files you mentioned is that the logo is actually imbeded into the windows executable somebody please correct expand on this eric farley access digex com charles u farley average iq of calgary board of ed employee
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ctrl alt del locks the computer fafter windows whenever i exit windows i can t use control alt del to reboot my computer because the system hangs when i do this i can still reboot using the reset key but i would like to know why this happens eric ebosco us oracle com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows nt und x windows i am not sure whether i am here in the right area but does anybody here know whether windows nt does will include a x windows server so that it can run x window applications remotely this is because we are considering at our university to use pc s for word processing and program development whereas the bigger jobs are to be run either on sun workstations or on fujitsu super computers thank you very much in advance hein eurom free multiline unix bbs home of the fsag frankfurt main germany data
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows nt help please help windows nt i need some information on the new windows nt anything you have would be appreciated i know nothing about it well except that it exists some questions memory requirements hard drive space release date is it out how is ibm reacting intel can it replace other lan os s anything else like specs speed etc thanks in advance luke email me at internet address domet ucbeh san uc edu bitnet address domet ucbeh
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	embedded truetype fonts ok i ve heard rumors about this i might have even seen it in a few places and i d like some info is it possible to embed fonts in a document like write word or ami pro so the file can be printed on another machine that doesn t have the font if possible how is it done i m sorry if this is a faq i couldn t find a faq list i would also apreciate knowing where that is if a windows faq exsists thanks in advance harry pierson come and be with me live my twisted dream the audio mercenary pro devoted pledge time for primal concrete sledge pierson usc edu pantera
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	workaround for citizen drivers i have been experiencing several end user problems with various commercial software packages wordperfect win publish it win and printing landscape mode on a citizen pn the little guy or the citizen gsx in a nutshell the problem is that i lose the first inches of information from my left margin be it white space or truetype font output and margins are not preserved on subsequent pages past the first wordperfect had a workaround consisting of using the default location for the printers instead of tractor or manual they have also filed this as a bug and are continuing to investigate it ms write of course has no problem with these printer drivers proving that microsoft knows something the rest of us don t are you surprised i m not publish it win is still investigating this problem and while i was consider my options rejecting the one about buying an dtp package for surely they wouldn t have this problem right i stumbled onto a global workaround workaround go into the windows control panel select printers select your citizen printer driver select setup and select a custom size of x like magic all of your problems will go away ask me no questions and i ll tell you no lies mike disclaimer my opinions do not necessarily reflect those of my employer mike rovak drd com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows or dos or smartdrv or hello i thought this problem might have something to do with windows smartdrv and a vesa video card any ideas i recently purchased a dx machine and am having problems where the machine will suddenly freeze or reboot this may happen in windows or dos sometimes it is after printing a document sometimes after using the mouse and sometimes just when i am sitting there twice when it happened the machine rebooted and sounded seven beeps i looked in the documentation and the seven beep code meant a problem with interrupts the machine has the following configuration and files dx ami bios and floppies meg ide hard drive k cache microsoft compatible mouse on com citizen gsx on lpt ni supervga monitor with vesa windows accelerator card w meg two vesa slots windows dos config sys device c windows himem sys dos high devicehigh c dos setver exe files buffers stacks autoexec bat echo off lh c windows smartdrv exe prompt p g path c dos c windows c mouse lh c mouse mouse set temp c dos lh c dos doskey when the machine freezes i can t use the mouse or keyboard or use ctrl alt del to reboot if any one can give me any help i would greatly appreciate it if anyone can help configure this machine for the best efficiency memory wise i would appreciate that also douglas b dodson internet dbd icf hrb com hrb systems inc state college pa usa disclaimer any ideas or opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect the ideas or opinions of hrb
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re please refresh on internet access to compuserve cheong solomon technet sg scstech admin writes hi sometime ago there are some discussions on gaining compuserve access thru the internet but i seem to misplace those articles can someone please refresh me where which site i can telnet to to gain access try telnet login to cserve this will get you into the compuserve network enter hostname cis and you ll get the userid prompt hopefully i can download files as well i haven t if you can figure it out let me know also let me know if your backspace key works thanks arthur lim email arthur mailhost scs com sg craig lewis saic craig monster apd saic com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re workaround for citizen drivers in article apr drd com mike drd com mike rovak writes i have been experiencing several end user problems with various commercial software packages wordperfect win publish it win and printing landscape mode on a citizen pn the little guy or the citizen gsx in a nutshell the problem is that i lose the first inches of information from my left margin be it white space or truetype font output and margins are not preserved on subsequent pages past the first wordperfect had a workaround consisting of using the default location for the printers instead of tractor or manual they have also filed this as a bug and are continuing to investigate it ms write of course has no problem with these printer drivers proving that microsoft knows something the rest of us don t are you surprised i m not publish it win is still investigating this problem and while i was consider my options rejecting the one about buying an dtp package for surely they wouldn t have this problem right i stumbled onto a global workaround workaround go into the windows control panel select printers select your citizen printer driver select setup and select a custom size of x like magic all of your problems will go away ask me no questions and i ll tell you no lies mike excuse me that s x mike disclaimer my opinions do not necessarily reflect those of my employer mike rovak drd com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re workaround for citizen drivers for windows i have had the best luck using the epson lq drivers with my citizen gxs be sure to download the updated version from microsoft that allows margin settings gene toye senior software engineer gtoye pssparc oc com openconnect systems lbj freeway dallas tx disclaimer my employer had no idea i was going to say that
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	looking for the latest actix drivers for windows hi anyone have the latest drivers for the actix graphics accelerator card plus the one i have version seem to have a lot of problems i believe the latest version is and would someone please upload it to some ftp site so that i can download it thanks daniel y h wong uoft wongda picton eecg toronto edu electrical engineering
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re workspace managers for win a small review jamie scuglia jamie zikzak apana org au wrote thanks to all those people who recommended workspace managers for windows i found shareware workspace managers from australia s ms windows archive monu cc monash edu au which mirrors some sites in the u s the three i found were workspaces wspace zip review deleted workshift wrksft zip review deleted bigdesk and backmenu backdesk zip review deleted i really appreciate this information however given that i don t have direct internet access which means i don t have archie access i must resort to using ftpmail this means that i need the site name and the directory where these workspace managers are located so can you or anyone else post or email me the needed information thanks very much chris chris huey tactix reengineering inc cah tactix rain com voice codecrafters custom crafted software in about an hour
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re visual c in article rgr v ga lll winken llnl gov david a fuess writes it is correct that vc is not considered an upgrade for c c is basically a dos product vc is a windows product as windows is not an upgrade for dos it is a separate operating system product line its utilities cannot be upgrades for dos utilities however i have also been told that it is not an upgrade for qcwin which it should be you can upgrade msc and qcwin to the visual c products as follows standard edition list price upgrade from qcwin competitive upgrade professional edition list price upgrade from msc competitive upgrade includes upgrades from other ms language products like qcwin michael goo hewlett packard i never try to cover my ass information networks division but i certainly support your right to do so homestead road ms lt cupertino ca goo hpinddh cup hp com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re why is my mouse so jumpy ms mouse in article c zs pr cs vu nl wlieftin cs vu nl liefting w writes ecktons ucs byu edu sean eckton writes i have a microsoft serial mouse and am using mouse com was using i think but switched to to see if it was any better vertical motion is nice and smooth but horizontal motion is so bad i sometimes can t click on something because my mouse jumps around i can be moving the mouse to the right with relatively uniform motion and the mouse will move smoothly for a bit then jump to the right then move smoothly for a bit then jump again maybe this time to the left about inch this is crazy i have never had so much trouble with a mouse before anyone have any solutions does microsoft think they are what everyone should be just venting steam i think i have the same problem i think it is caused by the rubber ball in the mouse which doesn t roll so smooth the detectors in the mouse notice this and whoops i hit a mine using minesweeper i think the solution will be buying a new mouse and or using a mouse pad wouter and or taking the rubber ball out of the mouse should be directions in the manual or on the bottom of the mouse and cleaning it with alcohol isopropyl i believe the same alcohol as used for cleaning your cassette deck this is good to do every so often even if you have a mouse pad dust still gets caught in the mouse and on the rubber ball as well lint and other garbage may find it s way onto the rubber ball and get into the mouse damaging the horizontal and vertical sensors hope this helps good luck sincerely robert kayman kayman cs stanford edu or cpa cs stanford edu in theory theory and practice are the same in practice they are not you mean you want the revised revision of the original revised revision revised
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re bernoulli drives disks in article c onk f a netnews jhuapl edu ncmoore netnews jhuapl edu nathan moore writes nilayp violet berkeley edu nilay patel writes i am looking for bernoulli removable tapes for the drive don t laugh i am serious if you have any mb tapes lying around that you would like to get rid of please mail me nilay patel nilayp violet berkeley edu you do mean disks don t you not tapes you forgot to say whether you were looking for the old or the newer well i need the old disks you are right disks is a better word but they are so big and calling them disks is kind of funny but the appropriate word is disks nilay patel nilayp violet berkeley edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	looking for tom haapanen i m trying to find tom haapanen formerly tom wes on ca who was the keeper of the faq for this newsgroup he was working at watrerloo engineering software but netfind can t even find that but it may have been a uucp connection if anyone knows how to contact tom please let me know thanks tom schlatter paladin world std com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re w wg novell in article rh mi ea msuinfo cl msu edu bilan cps msu edu thomas j bilan writes if i put lastdrive z in my config sys netx will run but i can t access drive f to log in to novell if i don t put lastdrive z in my config sys i can t access other w wg drives from the file manager it seems that there should be a way to make netx work with the lastdrive statement in my config sys first off i haven t used w wg but i think that s about to change the problem is the lastdrive command and the way netware in general and in this case netx in particular adds drives to the device chain setting lastdrive z means there are no unassigned as opposed to unused drive letters for netware to use as it tacks its drive mappings onto the end of the existing list of drives w wg obviously attaches its network drives to existing unused drive letters i d guess the next thing i d try is something like lastdrive m which on most machines will leave a fair swathe of drives for w wg and still allow up to netware drive mappings as well nick fitzgerald pc applications consultant csc uni of canterbury n z n fitzgerald csc canterbury ac nz tel fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re fast dos vga and x x windows video card info needed in article apr doug cae wisc edu leo cae wisc edu leo lim writes ok i have a dx isa w diamond stealth vram mb i was really satisfied w its performance in windows but now more and more games needs higher frame rates in dos vga especially this new strike commander this stealth vram can only give me fps i use dbench my winmark was million i think so right now i m considering to replace it w a new card which hopefully can perform approx same w my current vram in windows and also can perform dos vga preferably fps i am ordering the actix graphicsengine ultra plus it is the same price as the stealth card plus it is also based on s chip the newest and fastest chip from s everyone if you are looking for a card see the april issue of pc magazine for their review they noted this person s problem with dos the stealth card is not a very good dos performer the actix card is rated the best in this chip class non local bus it got glowing reports from the magazine was a best buy and i called them directly and they just updated their windows drivers last week they have a bulletin board to get the latest drivers though somone posted that this bbs was at at any rate the actix graphics engine ultra outperforms all the other cards in the class based on the winmark results if you are looking for the all around best dos windows performance check out the actix card their number is p s the article in pc magazine noted that if you are a regular dos user ie games then you should also check out the chip from s it apparently scores just as well and in many cases slightly better in dos than the chip ie stealth and actix cards they have comparable windows performance and are cheaper to buy eric
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re program manager two questions actually with several sharware utilities you cn change both my fav is plug in bryan dunne
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re canon bj bubblejet and hp deskjet thomas d fellrath nd edu nd edu wrote the key issue that i bought my bj on was ink drying speed i was at the trenton computer fest and there were many sources of ink refills for the hp and canon so if you don t like the ink you re using you have a choice there is a frequently asked question faq list that s reposted occasionally that reports how to refill the cartridges yourself with inks that are available from the stationery store instead of a specialty ink with the specialty price i m not sure but i think i found another legal source of cheap hypos for injecting ink into the cartridges more on that when my mail order succeeds jeffrey jonas jeffj panix com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	monoumb does anyone know where the program monoumb is available i have checked my windows system disks and monoumb is there but not the other one thanks stan kucera skucera prstorm bison mb ca stan kucera
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re visual c to clarify vc is considered an upgrade for c there will be no product called c although the command line compiler of vc lists its version as c is not a dos only product it is a c c compiler capable of producing executables for dos or windows as is vc pro ed the significant difference is that vc comes with many windows hosted tools ide etc which assist developers in creating windows executables much more quickly basically by automating the thousands of lines of boilerplate code initial impressions have been very favorable everyone who is a registered user of c should have received a considerable amount of info regarding the specifics of c if you haven t call microsoft and i m sure they d be happy to send you some jefrem iwaniw pelican software corporation
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	off line mail i am looking for a program called vbreader it is an off line mail reader for windows using qwk mail packets or if anyone knows of any good qwk mail readers please let me know thanks kevin kevin c donoghue internet donoghue donoghue win net donoghue international few love to hear the sins they love to act grand ave suite william shakespear ventura ca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wordbasic sdk request for information i have been reading about an organisation called winword developer s relations group i believe they have produced publications called winword software development kit or wordbasic sdk and the proceedings of the windows developers tools conference wordbasic sessions assembled by steve wexler would you be able to help me with a contact name and address for this organisation or these publications thank you adrian pitt systems administrator dsto corporate information systems unit melbourne lorimer street fishermens bend vic australia phone fax email pitt cis dsto gov au
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	viewsonic experience sought i d appreciate if you can email or post you positive or negative experience with this monitor especially compared to to nanao i i d summarize if i got multiple responses thanks kin kin cho kin isi com voice ext integrated systems inc fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re bernoulli drives disks in article rhm j cg agate berkeley edu nilayp violet berkeley edu nilay patel rc writes in article c onk f a netnews jhuapl edu ncmoore netnews jhuapl edu nathan moore writes nilayp violet berkeley edu nilay patel writes i am looking for bernoulli removable tapes for the drive don t laugh i am serious if you have any mb tapes lying around that you would like to get rid of please mail me nilay patel nilayp violet berkeley edu you do mean disks don t you not tapes you forgot to say whether you were looking for the old or the newer well i need the old disks you are right disks is a better word but they are so big and calling them disks is kind of funny but the appropriate word is disks gee i remember the old floppy disks we used on an s cp m system back in high school not to mention those old multi platter disk packs that held about mb that went in the big washing machine drives at the local college i took some programming classes at and this was even in the early s tom paladin world std com a disk is a disk no matter how great or how small paraphrasing gulliver s travels
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	col mail messages in ms windows editors i have a modest system of aliases macros that enables me to download mail from a public access unix system to my ms dos box i read and reply to the mail with a ms windows based editor everything works peachey keen as long as the author of the message has maintained his text at col max width sometimes i get slightly wider messages that run off screen so i have to use the cursor slider to read the whole thing i m using ndw deskedit mainly but i ve experienced the same prob with all other ms windows editors i ve fiddled with word wrap settings in the various editors but to no avail i know i m missing something very basic in editor setup but what is it oh yeah ms word for windows converts everything flawlessly but for what i m looking for that s like using a tank to crack walnuts i d really like to have an editor setup that would display all incoming ascii files in a readable format to my screen thanks in advance erich w lantz ama ewl world std com distributor of deflagration virago well yer dead now so shut up m p
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re canon bj bubblejet and hp deskjet in article c eki kvp vcd hp com edmoore vcd hp com ed moore writes thomas d fellrath nd edu nd edu wrote the key issue that i bought my bj on was ink drying speed you really have to try awful hard to get the bj ink to smear the hp deskjets need seconds to completely dry in both cases however do not get your pages wet unlike laser printers the material on your pages is ink not toner but that should go without saying i think the ink now used in the deskjet family is water fast i ve had pictures ruined by a few drops of rain these were colour pictures from a deskjet c mind you it could have been acid rain i use a bj ex ink dries fast but it really doesn t like getting wet justin whitton at ma jjw hermes uk mod relay where no man has gone before after august mail ma jjw brunel ac uk disclaimer my opinions count for nothing except when the office is empty i m a student intelligence
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ami pro and pctools compress doesn t like being moved has anyone had problems with ami pro after running pctools v compress i have not corrupted data due to having caches other than pc cache running so that is not it the first time i try to run ami pro after loading windows it loads but causes i think it was a segmentation fault in amipro exe right before it finishes with all times after that only managing to get to the logo box that first pops up when it begins loading and then causes a general protection fault in module amiproui dll at i have not been able to fix this problem except by reinstalling ami pro this has happened twice with both times being after having ran compress on my hard drive btw i am not running stacker or any other disk compression programs and if you don t already know pctools compress is actually a defragger despite it s name my system is a mhz with mb of ram and a nec oem hard drive etc but that shouldn t make a difference please email me as i can t keep up with the newsgroup and it will cut down on net traffic anyways thanks derek dpiaseck jarthur claremont edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re w wg novell in article apr csc canterbury ac nz cctr csc canterbury ac nz nick fitzgerald pc software consultant csc uoc nz writes in article rh mi ea msuinfo cl msu edu bilan cps msu edu thomas j bilan writes if i put lastdrive z in my config sys netx will run but i can t access drive f to log in to novell if i don t put lastdrive z in my config sys i can t access other w wg drives from the file manager it seems that there should be a way to make netx work with the lastdrive statement in my config sys first off i haven t used w wg but i think that s about to change the problem is the lastdrive command and the way netware in general and in this case netx in particular adds drives to the device chain setting lastdrive z means there are no unassigned as opposed to unused drive letters for netware to use as it tacks its drive mappings onto the end of the existing list of drives w wg obviously attaches its network drives to existing unused drive letters i d guess the next thing i d try is something like lastdrive m which on most machines will leave a fair swathe of drives for w wg and still allow up to netware drive mappings as well w wg requires dos drives i use lastdrive j which makes my first novell drive k and leaves me drives g h i and j for w wg my local dos drives use a f ron
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dos eid b i have a mb hard drive what should i set the compression ratio at using dos s double disk do i have to format erase everything to double the full mb to can i just make a mirror of my hard drive thanx the help darren lavallee wm v origin csrn files lines internet usenet
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re canon bj bubblejet and hp deskjet justin whitton ma jjw isis ajax rsre mod uk wrote in article c eki kvp vcd hp com edmoore vcd hp com ed moore writes thomas d fellrath nd edu nd edu wrote i think the ink now used in the deskjet family is water fast i ve had pictures ruined by a few drops of rain these were colour pictures from a deskjet c mind you it could have been acid rain the black ink is waterfast but the color isn t i use a bj ex ink dries fast but it really doesn t like getting wet justin whitton at ma jjw hermes uk mod relay where no man has gone before after august mail ma jjw brunel ac uk disclaimer my opinions count for nothing except when the office is empty i m a student intelligence bob taylor hp vancouver
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	reboot when i start windows recently the following problem has arrisen the first time i turn on my computer when windows starts from my autoexec after the win title screen the computer reboots on its own usually the second time after reboot or from the dos prompt everything works fine s far as i remember i have not changed my config sys or autoxec bat or win ini i can t remember whether this problem occured before i optimized defragmented my disk and created a larger swap file thank you mathcad system sx mb stacker win dos carlos g niederstrasser only two things are infinite princeton planetary society the universe and human stupidity and i m not sure about the former einstein carlosn phoenix princeton edu space phoenix princeton edu ad astra per ardua nostra
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	summary borland microsoft database c libraries well i m amazed at how successful this exercise was i received responses and requests for summary thanks to everyone who made it possible on my own i was able to find out about codebase accsys and q e codebase and accsys are c libraries without sql q e is a windows application that can be communicated through windows dde calls where you send a sql string and receive the results most people wrote to tell me about the paradox engine from borland other products mentioned were microsoft s odbc accsys quadbase codebase rbase and q e only odbc quadbase rbase and q e have sql for myself i decided on codebase mostly because it has an ansi c portability version that runs under dos unix etc and includes the source code and portability is important in my application it works with dbase foxpro or clipper files however i feel that microsoft s odbc looks very promising it s mostly a formalisation of building and submitting sql queries and formatting query results as the responses say it s available via ftp except it s effectively unusuable without two manuals the odbc programmer s reference and the odbc sdk guide moreover odbc doesn t actually interpret sql and liase with databases that s up to drivers that should be provided by database manufacturers also it s windows only it s actually an extension to the windows sdk nevertheless it s a start at a sql interface standard and should make life interesting in the future here s my original post followed by the responses separated by a line of asterisks does anyone know if borland or microsoft have libraries for accessing their respective databases paradox foxpro from within c programs i d really like to be able to build a sql query string and pass it to a function which returns the query results in some format failing that any other access would still be better than nothing i d also like to hear of third party libraries for doing the same thing if other people are interested i ll prepare a summary of what i m told and post it thanks to all borland has a product called paradox engine that does just what you want the current version is which is fully compatible with ack paradox why the versions are different i don t know pd engine was compatible with pdox and it consists of a rather broad library of functions for accesing database files from both pascal i think turbo pascal and up and c i think either microsoft or borland now reading the box it s borland paradox engine database frameworks works with any borland c c mocrosoft c or later turbo c for windows turbo pascal or later tp for windows or later for framework applications bc or later or ms c c it does have support for object useage i haven t had a real chance to really use it myself but it looks fairly complete i m planning to use it this summer rick rick osterberg osterber husc harvard edu harvard yard mail center cambridge ma usa borland has a product which is called paradox engine i do not know about ms the paradox engine i know very well and it definitiely not a replacement for sql but it will enable you to save and restore records has locking et al supposedly the paradox for windows was impemented on top of it charles parker phone technical support centerline software inc fax cparker centerline com cyberspace momma don t let yer children grow up to be cowboys i know borland has a library of routines for accessing paradox from within a c program they recently came out with version this works with both borland and microsoft s c compiler shailesh bhobe att psp smb ms has put their odbc sdk into the public domain it s big i believe mb but worth downloading over a fast link look at ftp uu net in vendor microsoft odbc sdk also some companies are starting to provide sql engines i just got one for rbase not exactly cheap at but it allows programs in c or vbasic under dos or windows to talk to data bases using sql functions in your code hth walter knopf fermilab knopf fnal fnal gov check out the odbc toolikt from microsoft it is available on ftp uu net vendor microsoft odbc sdk this is the way that we ve chosen to access databases from all of our apps mj ppppp sssssiiiiii specialists in ms windows and windows nt development pp ppss ii call for information about our ooa ood tool ooaid ppppp ssss ii michaeljon miller mikem apertus com pp ss ii proficient solutions inc pp sssss iiiiii holmes ave so minneapolis mn borland sells the paradox engine which is a c language interface to paradox dbase btrieve ans asci files they also sell database frameworks which includes the engine plus a collection with source of c classes for using the engine earl roethke eroethke ems cdc com i actualy have paradox engine it is a library of functions large model for accessing the paradox s databases it seems to be working fine but i never did try it thouroughly it costs hope it will help you from david lefebvre david hp speedware com borland provides a database lib called paradox engine which can access and use the database files aswell as many other things gary bell nellads cc monash edu au gary bell department of robotics and digital technology faculty of computing caulfield campus monash university australia paradox engine is the library for paradox artur babecki artur ii uj edu pl borland sells the paradox engine which has all the paradox calls in it its hardly sql though you can do searches on key fields and on indivual fields but no comparison operators like so its pretty painful in my opinion do do anything besides simple retrieval and inserts updates i m currently using it i have an eval copy and i ve linked it in to some entry screens i ve written the engine library adds about k to the size of the program but you can load it as an overlay using borland s vroom manager now borland claims that later versions of the engine will have sql support but they don t really expect it till late in the year or even next year they are trying to get thrid parties to help out if you have any other questions let me know mike kamlet mike vpnet chi il us yes borland sells their paradox engine separately it has c c and pascal interfaces although the underlying interface is in c well at least for version of the engine which i have costed at egghead they now have version of the engine and a separate c class package for it michael d kersenbrock adc kentrox portland oregon michaelk kentrox com uunet kentrox michaelk i ve used accsys for paradox new version is almost ready for paradox to access paradox files from c its pretty good not sql though have heard of borland paradox engine or some such which is supposed to do likewise but not sure of what it is exactly hope this helps good luck chris from fernand slinky cs nyu edu christopher fernandes borland sells their paradox engine it s a library of functions for accessing paradox db files it comes with libraries for ms c bcc turbo pascal v and i believe it comes with turbo pascal win libraries as well the c libraries come in both dos and windows flavors the win stuff being dll s when i got it it also came with crystal reports which is a graphical report generator it allows you to create a generic form and use it within a compiled program using pdox engine i don t know if they still offer it or what the current price is i paid something like for an upgrade from the earlier version though hope this helps david taylor the commander it is easier to change the internet gt c prism gatech edu specification to fit the program also dtaylor cfd gatech edu than vice versa and root cfd gatech edu author unknown but very wise if you want to do sql from within your programs check out quadbase i don t have their address oops yes i do quadbase systems inc lucerne dr sunnyvale ca usa phone voice fax ask for the sql win demo disk it looked good to me i have a background in embedded sql in ingres this looked real similar it s a little expensive but if you order the demo and then just wait they will probably send you a special offer that ll probably run about us good luck best tom delosh from delosh emunix emich edu tom delosh borland has the paradox engine library it has libraries for both c and pascal to access paradox files under dos windows but for paradox i believe you d have buy have the sql link since pdox itself isn t sql compliant i ve used the engine for over a year now and have been pretty satisfied with it under dos it s a real pig it tacks on about k to the size of your programs tim ma associate programmer university of utah email tim src cppa utah edu i don t know about microsoft but borland sells the paradox engine for c c pascal in one package and if you want dbase compatible files there is a library called codebase from sequiter software that works with c c from davidr rincon ema rockwell com david j ray we re using q e database libraries to do what you describe it s a set of dll s accessed through a common api to talk to most of the major database formats we re using it to build an application that queries several databases using sql queries all access using q e is done using sql the package is available through microway in melbourne i believe it is produced by pioneer systems in the us we have no association with microway or pioneer systems other than being satisfied customers feel free to mail me for further information chris programming for nsw national parks and wildlife service chris hutchinson box u research programmer university of new england chris sulaw law su oz au armidale nsw paradox engine provides a complete set of c libraries for accessing paradox tables however it seems that it supports only borland turbo c and microsoft c when i tried to compile the engine s sample applications with the waterloo watcom c c bit compiler it complains that the library file llibce lib is missing even though i am quite certain that the file is not part of watcom c or the engine anybody have any success with other c compilers ron k ng hydro on ca i m currently developing an app with borland s paradox engine for c it also comes in pascal which has recently gone to version i e px engine is compatible with paradox and downward compat w there are indeed c libs for fox access but i can t think of the names offhand i m sure someone has already written you in that regard i think i just saw an add for a fox lib in the c users journal which is a good place to look for this type of package in general by the way i ve been paying my dues to learn a lot of the quirks of px eng over the past year wouldn t recommend it for a complex multiuser app but i m staying with it for now it s like a bad marriage i ve got too much time invested in learning and work arounds but if your interest is limited to a simple single user interface you want to build your own sql engine i take it px engine will do the job easily it doesn t sound like you ll be bumping into any of the gotchas if you do write me i may be able to point you in the right direction from raymond cruzio santa cruz ca us raymond borland has a paradox engine and database framework which gives you a c and assembler api to paradox databases this is part of boca borland s object component architecture they have technical briefs on boca pdoxeng and other products of theirs from jdm jumbo read tasc com james d mcnamara james d mcnamara tasc walkers brook drive reading ma x john bongiovanni systems analyst orbital engine company perth australia oecjtb oec orbital dialix oz au bongo alumni caltech edu opinions expressed are my own and not those of my organisation
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re telephone of cirrus logic in article c m s m news hawaii edu chen galileo ifa hawaii edu hua chen writes is there anybody who knows the telephone number of cirrus logic co maker of a graphic card please reply to chen cfa harvard edu thank you very much hua chen center for astrophysics bbs number ron
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re program manager two questions in apr vpnet chi il us lisbon vpnet chi il us gerry swetsky writes can you set up a short cut key to return to the program manager i know ctl esc esc will do it but i d rather set it up so i can avoid the task list and get back to the p m with alt f you might try the recorder and make a micro i done that to do certain operations in a windows app that didn t have the ability to use a micro it should be in the accessories window the only problem is that it has to be runing for it to work but good luck warren e fridy iii st street north st petersburg fl internet wefiii axion palan palantir com uucp palan deep axion wefiii
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re drivers for stealth doug ward writes i recently purchased a diamond stealth video card and received the wrong drivers does anyone know where i can ftp the proper drivers the dstlth file at cica does not work with this video card please respond to doug sun sws uiuc edu thank you doug ward if you want to get them and get them now also the most up to date use the bbs at they may take an hour to download so do it when rates are low yeah i know it costs but locking up your system gets old quick maybe someone has them on the net i ve got the stealth drivers david
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mouse jumpiness solved can t guarantee that it ll work for everyone but i finally fixed my mouse jumpiness problems i installed a bus mouse sorry i didn t say the solution was free in the past i d tried everything with my microsoft serial mouse cleaning it unloading all kinds of tsrs turning off smartdrv write cacheing changing com ports nothing worked yesterday i finally broke down and bought a mouse systems bus mouse the improvement is even better than i had imagined so much so that my old mouse must have been jumpy all the time i just thought it was jumpy sometimes and i had gotten so used to it i didn t notice my wife who uses the computer about once a month noticed the improvement literally within a second i can t say anything about other bus mice but with the mouse systems one you ll have to give up either com or lpt to an irq also if you don t know mouse systems mice have three buttons the driver includes a utility that lets you assign keystrokes to the middle button hope this helps someone else if you re anywhere near as frustrated as i was it s well worth the stephen thomas at t tridom email sat eng tridom com attmail tridom sat
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	is kermit available for windows hello all i was wondering is the kermit package the actual package not a different program with kermit file transfers available for microsoft windows any information would be greatly appreciated please e mail or post thanks in advance unabashed shabba ranks fan steve frampton frampton vicuna ocunix on ca steve frampton i collect postcards if you send me one from a princess st your area i ll send one in return send to kingston ontario don t forget both email and mailing address canada k l c
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re summary borland microsoft database c libraries could you post a description of objectbase your chosen product thanks
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win nt file systems ok will some one out there tell me why how dos can read i havn t tried writing in case it breaks something the win nt ntfs file system i thought ntfs was supposed to be better than the fat system keith
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mail order sales billing receivables program surely some one of you is familiar with what a mail order company goes through this company has only a few products but thousands of clients i need a sales billing and receivables program to handle the thing but i need to be able to customize it myself own the source etc anyone willing to sell me the basic stuff in any development language i ll be willing to pay about to it has to be ready now i need this sort of solution immediately with more time i ll just develop one myself if you can have me a prototype in two weeks you can make some quick cash dixon berry i see the light cfdeb ux cts eiu edu at the end of the tunnel now eastern illinois university thanks bill clinton booth library someone please tell me computer resource center it s not a train cracker
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re ami pro and pctools compress doesn t like being moved sorry about that don t want to alarm anyone i don t think there is any correlation between the crashes and pctools i reinstalled ami pro and ran compress again with no problems i think problems may have been related to filling my disk until it had bytes left while ftping although i would think it wouldn t matter since ami pro wasn t running at the time and i made space available immediately anyways but whatever the cause it is working now derek
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re workspace managers for win a small review cah tactix rain com chris huey writes jamie scuglia jamie zikzak apana org au wrote thanks to all those people who recommended workspace managers for windows i found shareware workspace managers from australia s ms windows archive monu cc monash edu au which mirrors some sites in the u s the three i found were workspaces wspace zip review deleted workshift wrksft zip review deleted bigdesk and backmenu backdesk zip review deleted i really appreciate this information however given that i don t have direct internet access which means i don t have archie access i must resort to using ftpmail this means that i need the site name and the directory where these workspace managers are located backdesk zip is on cica but i m not sure of the whole directory another to throw into the running is topdesk it is alsow on cica but i m not sure where it is more complicated then backdesk but i ve found it to be more stable and more usefull i recomend it to people who have already used a virtual desktop oh yeh it s free copyright microsoft and sanford staab carl zmola cicero spc uchicago edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dos w wg problem i am running windows windows for work groups and just loaded dos what s happening appears as a graphics problem with file manager i ve added some menubar buttons but there appears to be a gray boxed region that covers the top rds of the button row these buttons are in a row below the pulldown menus the pulldown menus look fine and the disk label region looks fine but you only see the bottom few pixels of the task buttons anyone else experience this thanks david ransier davidr pdx mentorg com these comments are my own i paid for office them i own them they re not my fax employers and you can t have them
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re canon bj bubblejet and hp deskjet in article c n k l vcd hp com robertt vcd hp com bob taylor writes justin whitton ma jjw isis ajax rsre mod uk wrote in article c eki kvp vcd hp com edmoore vcd hp com ed moore writes thomas d fellrath nd edu nd edu wrote i think the ink now used in the deskjet family is water fast i ve had pictures ruined by a few drops of rain these were colour pictures from a deskjet c mind you it could have been acid rain the black ink is waterfast but the color isn t i use a bj ex ink dries fast but it really doesn t like getting wet justin whitton at ma jjw hermes uk mod relay where no man has gone before after august mail ma jjw brunel ac uk disclaimer my opinions count for nothing except when the office is empty i m a student intelligence bob taylor hp vancouver
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	for sale borland c w application frameworks please excuse me if this is inappropriate to post here but i do not read these groups normally and i did not see any pc related marketplace newsgroups for sale borland c with application frameworks full professional developer kit borland c programming package including unopened software unopened manuals and registration card software includes still plastic wrapped high density inch disks for borland c total of diskettes in individually wrapped packages each disk has borland c and bc app frameworks on label amish system utilities for windows one high density disk amish launch amish desk utilities for windows phar lap s dos extender lite version one hd disk manuals include still plastic wrapped manuals include i e unopened a boland windows api volumes i reference guide ii reference guide iii windows reference guide b borland turbo debugger user s guide c borland turbo profiler user s guide d borland turbo assembler users guide e borland c user s guide integrated environment optimization command line compiler installation f borland c programmer s guide language structure class libraries advanced prgramming techniques anci c implementaion g borland c library reference runtime library global variables cross reference h borland c tools and utilities guide error messages winsightm make help resource compilers tlink i borland object windows for c user s guide tutorials class reference opened no plastic wrapping but unread manuals include a borland turbo assembler quick reference guide b borland turbo vision for c user s guide c borland resource workshop user s guide this package was purchased by a former employee of my father s and my father has asked me to try and sell it since neither of us have any use for it retails for most software houses have it for approx i am asking if you are interested please e mail me directly because i do not normally read this newsgroup aaron herskowitz aherskow alleg edu allegheny college meadville pennsylvania
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	strange enhanced behavior howdy we have been having a real problem with an ast sx machine with mb of ram we installed paradox for windows but i don t think paradox is the real problem here and the installation went ok windows is installed on a local drive paradox installed on a novell network netware v or greater dos win but the program will not load in enchanted mode the thermometer bar goes to and we then either get a invalid command com or a windows nastygram talking about an illegal instruction i ve checked out the command com thing but as a long time c programmer i ve crashed my share of machines with pointer problems and this is a standard behavior anyway paradox will run in standard mode but not enhanced we also have quattro pro windows exhibiting the same behavior spent about hours with borland s tech people with no avail the guy i talked to a microsoft didn t want to really dig in and help as he gave up pretty quickly somewhat disappointing really i expected more from microsoft you d think with all the millions of windows installations that they would have seen all the possible problems but i guess not microsoft had sent us a page fax on fixing uae and general protection faults sorry i can t fax anything out of here so please don t ask try microsoft which we tried we did everything they said and still no luck so if you can help please mail me this problem is driving us nuts i will greatly appreciate any information anyone can pass on thanks kelly this is the real signature please ignore the following demon signature kelly j grant grantk nosc mil hancock st the next time someone asks you if you san diego ca are a god you say yes kelly grant grantk manta nosc mil computer sciences corp important manta uucp won t get to me hancock street if you are given lemons see if you can trade for san diego ca chocolate me
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re why is my mouse so jumpy ms mouse ecktons ucs byu edu sean eckton writes i have a microsoft serial mouse and am using mouse com was using i think but switched to to see if it was any better vertical motion is nice and smooth but horizontal motion is so bad i sometimes can t click on something because my mouse jumps around i can be moving the mouse to the right with relatively uniform motion and the mouse will move smoothly for a bit then jump to the right then move smoothly for a bit then jump again maybe this time to the left about inch this is crazy i have never had so much trouble with a mouse before anyone have any solutions try this flip your mouse over and open up the cover that holds the mouse ball in place remove the ball and inside you should see probably rollers if any of the rollers have a tiny layer of caked on dirt dust or otherwise unidentifiable scum on them carefully scrape it off with a small knife xacto works great be careful you do not want to gauge the rollers just clean off the dirt put the ball back in put the cover on and there you are i clean a couple of dozen of these every month here another symptom is that when you move the mouse it seems to click along if this doesn t solve your problem at least you have a clean mouse i highly recommend using a proper soft mouse pad and if you are a clean freak place it in your drawer every night or when you don t use it to keep the dust off personally i prefer track balls oh which brings me to another point if your mouse or trackball tracks optically and the sunlight is streaming through the window onto your mouse trackball you may notice that it will stop working if this happens to you close the curtains or blinds or simply shade your pointing device and see if that helps peter goudswaard goudswaa sfu ca preferred pgoudswa cln etc bc ca pgoudswa cue bc ca there s no gift like the present goudswaard s observation
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re winqvtnet with ndis on token ring 
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re more diamond ss x dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina writes has anyone experienced a faint shadow at all resolutions using this card is only in windows i have replaced card and am waiting on latest drivers also have experienced general protection fault errors in wspdpsf drv on winword tools option menu and in winfax setup i had a ati ultra but was getting genral protection fault errors in an spss application these card manufactures must have terrible quality control to let products on the market with so many bugs what a hassle running on gateway dx thx dave l might the problem not be with the video monitor instead many of our monitors as they age develop shadows on white and bright colors peter goudswaard goudswaa sfu ca preferred pgoudswa cln etc bc ca pgoudswa cue bc ca there s no gift like the present goudswaard s observation
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	what does the bmp format mean what exactly does the windows bitmap format look like i mean how is the data stored width height no of colours bitmap data i couldn t find anything in ths user manual is there any other reference material which would give me this information thanks andrew
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dll s and registerclass createwindow hi all i have a dll in which i register a class and create a window of that class type both calls require a module instance handle hinstance petzold s book says that it is best to use the module instance handle of the calling program not the module instance handle of the dll page i have two questions is there a way to find out the module instance handle of a module what are the possible problems with using the instance handle of the dll thanks in advance mike mike smith e mail m smith ma bull com bull hn information systems inc phone concord road ma a fax billerica ma usa
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	roman bmp in response to the requests for cool bitmaps i am posting one due to the resolution and size it is in parts this is a uuencoded bitmap x colors the picture is a marbled gazebo on a desert with blue sky background the size is just right for centered wallpaper on a x display because it leaves a border at the bottom just big enough for icons to fit in without being on top of the picture reguarding image quality and resolution i have not seen much better for those of you who haven t worked with pieced image files here is how to put it back together save the parts to individual files use a text editor to remove the header and footer in each file concatinate all the parts into a single file uudecode the file there are tools available to do this without the hassle such as uuconvert unix and uucoder windows if neccesary i could post these tools or where to get them by ftp let me know keywords bitmap wallpaper
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	stealth video drivers i recently purchased a diamond stealth video card and received the wrong drivers does anyone know where i can ftp the windows video drivers for the stealth i tried the drivers at cica and they don t work the right drivers are on the diamond bbs but the file is almost meg and it would take a while to download them at baud any information would be appreciated please contact me at doug sun sws uiuc edu thank you doug ward
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	netware win fileman is there a update or something that will allow a person when using novell and windows file manager to view the files with the name of the person who created it or changed it like the novell command ndir tim osburn osburn halcyon com tim osburn kb gbq osburn halcyon com bellevue washington
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re bbbbig problem with w w print file help in article mar jupiter sun csd unb ca dwoo unb ca writes to all the w w experts i have a file that is three pages long with to line equations plus a by diagram the size of this file is about kb before unlinking all the embedded objects and kb after unlinking all the embedded objects well when i print it since i don t have a laser printer i have to send it to a print file w w gives me back a bbbbbbig file that is well over mb long i just fail to see how a k file can be boosted to a mb file obviously i will not able to carry this mb file to the public printer unless i find myself a network card a cable etc could anyone please enlighten me with a solution i already try to print a page at a time it still won t fit into a hd floppy thanx a mil dennis woo department of mechanical engineering e mail dwoo unb ca university of new brunswick tel i once had this problem all i did was to copy the whole doc to a new file the problem was gone hope this helps hua
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re tidying up after removing an ole server in article c y kz liverpool ac uk qq liverpool ac uk chris wooff writes a while ago i installed spss for windows as part of an evaluation once the evaluation was complete i duly deleted the software from my pc unfortunately there is still a ghost of spss left when i run something like write and go to embed an object then spss chart appears on the list of objects i m offered i looked around all the obvious ini files without success the next thing i tried was looking for the string spss chart in every file in the windows directory it turned up in a file called req dat or reg dat unfortunately the file was binary and so i didn t feel inclined to edit it i d welcome a solution for removing spss from the list of ole servers chris wooff c wooff liverpool ac uk you can edit that file with a utility that comes with windows called regedit registration info editor bob hodge i m going fishing you got worms yeah but i m going anyway
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re win nt file systems in article apr spider co uk keiths spider co uk keith smith writes ok will some one out there tell me why how dos can read i havn t tried writing in case it breaks something the win nt ntfs file system i thought ntfs was supposed to be better than the fat system keith dos cannot read the ntfs file system although the ntfs file system can read the fat file system of dos i have windowsnt on a seperate partition on my machine at home and i can read my dos disks from windows nt but not vice versa as far as the robustness of the file system it seems to be very fast and i have yet to have a single problem with it that doesn t prove it s better than the fat system though read the book inside windows nt it will give you all the info you re looking for scott scott reimert reimert mamacass etdesg trw com standard disclaimer redondo beach ca blah blah blah always store beer in a cool dark place
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	re viewsonic experience sought vs vs nec fg i d appreciate if you can email or post you positive or negative experience with this monitor especially compared to to nanao i i d summarize if i got multiple responses i bought a viewsonic for use at home but after a week i took it back i felt for the money my nec fg that i use at work was a much better monitor the nec is sharper flatter less distorted and more stable i have heard complaints from people about the nec fg series having some quality control problems but mine has been in use for about a year with no problems at all there was nothing really broken with the viewsonic but overall it did not match up i used my ati graphics ultra in setup mode to push the frequencies to their limits and the viewsonic exhibited some problems that the nec did not i personally like the non etched nec with the ocli filter and the tube on the was not as nice the had some uncorrectable pincusion and edge distortion problems also it would change brightness when i switched modes and i was constantly having to fiddle with the controls and the yoke was crooked and i had no way to compensate for the raster that tilted downhill on the postive side although not as handsome as the nec the had a smaller footprint and was not as heavy i have heard that panasonic owns viewsonic and the model is being sold through oem channels with a panasonic label on it if it s available that way at a lower cost i could get more serious about it for now the nec has my vote but i m searching for one of the new cheaper nec fge s to see if it s just as good as its older brother the fg before i decide which one to buy i have no experience with the nanao i can never keep the nanao models straight and don t have any place i can walk in to get a good comparison of all models standard employer disclaimers apply keith w johnson tektronix gpi nd info services wilsonville or usa internet keith w johnson tek com voice fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	rfd comp os ms windows nt misc setup this is the official request for discussion rfd for the creation of two new newsgroups for microsoft windows nt this is a second rfd replacing the one originally posted in january and never taken to a vote the proposed groups are described below name comp os ms windows nt setup status unmoderated purpose discussions about setting up and installing windows nt and about system and peripheral compatability issues for windows nt name comp os ms windows nt misc status unmoderated purpose miscellaneous non programming discussions about using windows nt including issues such as security networking features console mode and windows win compatability rationale microsoft nt is the newest member of the microsoft windows family of operating systems or operating environments for those who wish to argue about the meaning of an os the family ranges from modular windows through windows and windows for workgroups to windows nt at the high end to date microsoft has shipped over beta copies and pre release sdks of windows nt the actual release is slated for may june while windows nt has an entirely new design internally it shares an application programming interface with the other members of the windows family its win api includes the win api used in win dows and the win s api subset win less threads networking and security can be used to create bit applications for windows the user interface is also practically identical to that of windows with the addition of logins and a few other features it uses program manager file manager and other applets and generally pre sents an identical appearance to the user many of the announced windows nt applications are ports of existing windows apps and nt also runs existing applications thus it appears logical that windows nt should share the following groups with the other members of the windows family comp os ms windows apps comp os ms windows programmer tools comp os ms windows programmer misc comp os ms windows programmer win the following groups are also clearly applicable to windows nt as well as windows comp os ms windows announce comp os ms windows advocacy in conclusion the only clear argument for the separation of the windows and windows nt hierarchies is different internal structures of windows and windows nt and yet operating systems such as os macintosh os xenix and coherent all have undergone major rewrites without having been split into separate newsgroup hierarchies further windows is due for a major rewrite itself in when the fully bit protected mode and with dos built in next generation windows chicago debuts next year surely it should remain in the same hierarchy and what then would be the jus tification for separating windows nt from other windows versions discussion period the discussion period will run from april to may voting the cfv call for votes will be issued around may based on the feedback received during the discussion period no votes will be accepted prior to the cfv tom haapanen tomh metrics com software metrics inc waterloo ont stick your index fingers into both corners of your mouth now pull up that s how the corrado makes you feel car january
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dde frustrations can you help i am starting to work on a project using dde to transfer data the application came with an excel macro which can transfer the data i need to port it to w w uses a very different setup for dde macros does anyone have any suggestions as to good references i have downloaded ww windows dynamic exchange dde the ms application note any books worth getting the specifics are server application dionex ai chromatography data system client application for windows v except for the macro dionex did not provide any documentation for dde also i am having problems because i am trying to develop the application on my pc but to actually get data you need to be connect to the instrument any help here would be appreciated too thanks leon m olszewski nothing is worse than having an itch you can internet leono uiuc edu never scratch leon bladerunner
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dos window macros does anyone know a program that will record keyboard sequences that i do in a windowed dos box i would like to have something that starts a telnet program and then logs me into my accounts windows recorder doesn t seem to be able to record the key sequences thanks steve
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	adobe and adobe i wanted to create a postcript file with win to print it on a laserwriter ii it created a postcript file version adobe but our laser accept only adobe how resolve this problem thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wanted bus card for logitech mouse i ve acquired an old logitech series button mouse and i m told that this is a bus mouse does anyone want to unload an old pc clone bus card for this mouse email replies to bobmon cs indiana edu thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	flame therapy i think it would be a great idea to have a new group created comp sys ibm pc flame therapy anybody agree
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re warning on copy ii pc board help on copying in c zwc lk acsu buffalo edu v kcbp ubvmsd cc buffalo edu mitch writes now does anyone know a way to back up the masters of word perfect for windows windows and norton so i can send another copy to my permanent non college address for safe keeping students keep borrowing my masters and i m worried they ll get screwed up please don t tell me you realize of course that inevitably some anal retentive moron is going to come along and wag his fingers and his jowls in outrage that personal politics are more important than smcap bold font god pt the law smcap bold font but that s irrelevant to the problem here windows came with my system but on disks i hate using disks so i copied them over to high density s using xcopy it worked fine in fact for a while i was changing configurations and whatnot so much that i decided to try putting them on the hard disk not only can you copy them over with one disk per directory but if you want to you can simply copy them all into one directory makes it a lot nicer when you re switching printer emulations around norton i don t have much experience with but when a friend s system crashed we restored from a backup rather than from the originals and it worked fine this would imply that arj a r norton c nu would create a workable backup and if you did a full install the first time you ve got the whole thing never played with wp for windows i m not too big of a fan of anything from utah good luck disclaimer don t copy that floppy tm just say no r respect your elders for the wages of sin is sic death and a hefty legal bill do you offend rob rob kudla acm rpi edu keywords oldfield jane s leather yes win phish light blue right bondage r e m dtp steely dan ds fnm owl genesis in the spaceship the silver spaceship the lion takes control
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re pc keyboard in article hxg nxl rpi edu wen yingyang ral rpi edu john wen writes from wen yingyang ral rpi edu john wen subject pc keyboard summary location of cap lock and ctrl keys on pc keyboard keywords cap lock and ctrl key date mon apr gmt does anyone know of a software that can exchange caps lock and ctrl keys on the at style keyboard i m looking for a memory resident program that can work with other programs rather than a feature in a specific program i am aware of a shareware program back and forth that provides this feature within that program thanks a program in the archive keymap zip on simtel and mirror sites in the msdos keyboard directory will do this it is written in assembler and it best if you have a compiler to create a new keyboard map it is possible however to use a binary editor to edit the provided compiled keyboard driver if you do not have a compiler i used hexed zip also available on simtel simply serach for the codes to locate the biginning of the normal keyboard map then swap the codes for the keys that you wish to swap see the keyboard directory of simtel for programs that report the scancode for each key to you some bios programs also have this info good luck pete peter j mckinney pm longs lance colostate edu electrohydrodynamic laboratory fluid mechanics and wind engineering program civil engineering department colorado state university
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	please help identify video hardware i need a device either an isa board or a subsystem which will take two rgb video signals and combine them according to a template the template can be as simple as a rectangular window with signal one being used for the interior and signal two for the exterior but i beleive fancier harware may also exist which i do not want to exclude from my search i know this sort of hardware exists for ntsc etc but i need it for rgb please email and or post any leads gordon lang glang smail srl ford com or glang holo srl ford com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how long do monitors last well my inch vga x interlacing year old no brand monitor just bit the bullet i pressed the power switch and a few seconds later the power light went out with a pop gawd it s only been two and half years how long would normal monitors last i think the problem with my monitor is the power switch but the image was getting pretty dim anyway i needed to have my contrast all the way to the max and the screen did flicker from time to time is this normal hehehe or do i just have the worst of luck question what do i do now buy a new one get it fixed save up for a really good one and get by with a cheap ega monitor for now i rather save my money to upgrade my sx to though thanks what engineers say extensive effort is being applied on a fresh approach to the problem what they really mean we just hired three new guys we ll let them kick it around for a while robert bobby yung ry lehigh edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	attn ken smith it is model number d a interlaced dp btw if you have a number to contact the company that would really be helpful to thanks for replying i was beginning to believe that i was never going to get a reply i posted this on the netnews bboard because the first message i sent to you was returned and i didn t know if my second message would get to you calvin
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re share your optimization tips in article pm pinnp geraldo cc utexas edu jbodnar ccwf cc utexas edu john bodnar writes according to e p unl edu edgar pearlstein here s another one my computer arrived with the following statement in its config sys file stacks i changed it to stacks and saved bytes maybe it could be lowered even more but i haven t tried it exactly regardless of what microsoft says i have set stacks on every single computer i have installed windows on from a simple sx up to dx with eisa motherboards ndi volante tiga adapters intel ethernet express cards and caching scsi controllers from dpt and dtc not a problem yet and the extra k gained means a lot with conventional memory gobbling programs like orcad and tango pcb john bodnar while we liked developing windows the university of texas at austin applications we never inhaled internet jbodnar ccwf cc utexas edu uucp cs utexas ut ccwf jbodnar borland ceo philippe kahn i remember reading somewhere qemm manual i think that stack is needed only for the windows setup program otherwise use stack rich
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway and ati lb problem i was wondering if anyone out there has had the same problem i am having with my gateway dx vl bus system with ati graphics ultra pro lb when i have my computer in any resolution other than x everything is fine but whenever i use it in x windows autocad gifs the screen gets about inches shorter at the very top and very bottom of the screen there is about a bar of black the screen isn t cut off it just squeezes everything into the smaller space and messes up the aspect ratio while i can manually change the v size on the back this is a pain in the ass and it just shouldn t happen anyway i ve called gateway numerous times and they haven t been able to help me at all two different times they sent me a new card and both times the new card didn t work at all in my computer they even tried to bill me for the first card because they didn t get it back in a couple of days when they told me over the phone that they would wait more than weeks before billing my card but their customer support is a different story so if anyone has had this same problem please let me know if you know what to do hell let me know if you don t have a solution just so i know i m not the only one with this problem thanks in advance jude m greer jmgree starbase spd louisville edu p s i already tried going into the mach install program and manually set ting up the card doesn t work whenever i try to increase the vertical size of the x screen it just starts to cut off the top and bottom
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re gw and simms in article bu edu nshah acs bu edu writes i have a gateway local bus system it has slots for simms that either have to use or mb simms my question i just received a x ns simm and it has pins the slot on the motherboard has at least or so pins did i get the wrong simm or can i still use my simm although not all the pins on the slot would be flilled i have never encountered such a long slot for simms before anyone have suggestions i can t get a hold of gateway yet thanks please post to the net or nshah acs bu edu yes you bought the wrong simms you need x or x which are pin simms these are better anyway becuase the send receive data in byte bit bit parity one for each byte chunks you will undoubtedly see these simms becoming more widely used in the near future jason jason walters jpw lehigh edu jpw pl eecs lehigh edu a k a modem mouth
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re intel the pentium and linux inabu ibm rz tu clausthal de arnd burghardt writes hi folks yesterday i visited the cebit hannover germany where intel was presenting the pentium processor they had four in words machines with this beast running so they presented it nicely unly by running picture shows this i could do on a the presentor promised it to be binary compatible to the i and i said i don t believe i showed him a one disk linux system emergency disk with patched lilo to boot from disk and said him convice me boot this no guts no glory a he decided no glory he won t let anybody touch his holy cows and not even boot a suspect os i thought by myself this is the coward of the day and went back to earth what cn we learn this technology is far from industrial standarts so you can expect this beast in your local computer shop at least in spring next year only my cents yes only your here s mine if i were running at a new chip at a trade show and had little to no real technical knowledge i wouldn t let some stranger with a diskette boot my demo machine if the demo machine is down too long people will not see my nice demos and if this purposted linux diskette is really something that will wipe the disk or is loaded with a virus i m in deep trouble no marketer in their right mind would let you do this unless they had specifically invited people to do so and provided machines to do it with we can we learn this technology will be shipping from pc vendors in may and will be i compatible the golden gryphon gryphon openage com the crown jewel of the american prison system president bill clinton on living in the white house openage the premier sco unix integrator in the washington d c area
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re warranty extension by credit company applies to the phurchase of computer huayong yang yang titan ucs umass edu wrote most if not all credit card companies offer to double the warranty up to one year namely if you make a purchase by a credit card you get additional warranty up to one year does it apply to the purchase of computers i wonder if anyone out there has used it is there any catch thanks in advance i am just about to post the results of my big computer purchase one of the key points was the ability to use my american express card i read the fine print between double warranty policies of amex and citibank visa sure both will allow you double warranty on computers but citibank has a maximum claim of could you imagine trying to get your monitor or mother board fixed for amex has no limit on claims remember if you use amex you must either send a copy of the warranty info to them in days from purchase or you must call them to pre register and then send them the paperwork within days of purchase my pre register pak arrived today citibank visa requires no pre registration ken
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	another happy gateway owner since i ve been seeing all kinds of complaints regarding gateways lately on here i thought i post my recent pleasant experiences my machine dx v this past friday this was two weeks to the day from when i called the order in upon unboxing it i found everything to be in perfect order all the peripherals i ordered were properly installed jumbo cd rom i was very impressed with the quantity and quality of the gateway documentation all software came with the original disks and manuals the gateway manual itself is in a nice ring binder the ati gup came with build drivers all other software i specified microsoft office was properly installed the machine came right up out of the box and has been performing flawlessly it s been on all weekend and it hardly even reaches room temperature i think the big roomy tower case has a lot to do with it it s up and running dos with no problems i ve also read about some people having problems with high speed serial communications i used the dos interlink program which lets me link to my old computer via a serial port at k baud it then maps the other machines two hard disks as my disks f g you can cd to these drives and either run programs or copy files it s almost like a peer peer lan except you can also run programs on the other machine it s not a two way street the other machine is the server and this machine is the client so thats where it seems to differ from the peer to peer stuff for a bundled dos utility its very impressive my jumbo took about minutes to back up mb of data i also by passed any potential gateway monitor problems by taking the credit and applying it towards a nec fg i love this monitor so i m glad there is some good news gateway stories and i m glad it was me now if it just keeps working john john gayman wa wbu uucp uunet wa wbu john packet wa wbu wb eah
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	winmarks where can i get it where can i get the winmarks benchmark to run on my pc via ftp would be best roger bix ruzun net uzun crash cts com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re gateway and ati lb problem in article jmgree starbase spd louisville edu jmgree starbase spd louisville edu jude m greer writes i was wondering if anyone out there has had the same problem i am having with my gateway dx vl bus system with ati graphics ultra pro lb when i have my computer in any resolution other than x everything is fine but whenever i use it in x windows autocad gifs the screen gets about inches shorter at the very top and very bottom of the screen there is about a bar of black the screen isn t cut off it just squeezes everything into the smaller space and messes up the aspect ratio while i can manually change the v size on the back this is a pain in the ass and it just shouldn t happen anyway i ve called gateway numerous times and they haven t been able to help me at all two different times they sent me a new card and both times the new card didn t work at all in my computer they even tried to bill me for the first card because they didn t get it back in a couple of days when they told me over the phone that they would wait more than weeks before billing my card but their customer support is a different story so if anyone has had this same problem please let me know if you know what to do hell let me know if you don t have a solution just so i know i m not the only one with this problem thanks in advance jude m greer jmgree starbase spd louisville edu p s i already tried going into the mach install program and manually set ting up the card doesn t work whenever i try to increase the vertical size of the x screen it just starts to cut off the top and bottom maybe its a monitor problem you mentioned that you swapped cards but not monitors perhaps that could be it dan daniel matthew coleman internet dcoleman utxvms cc utexas edu dcoleman ccwf cc utexas edu the university of texas at austin decnet utxvms dcoleman electrical computer engineering bitnet dcoleman utxvms bitnet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	simm for sale i have mx ns pin simm for sale it is in perfect condition it will not work in my system because it requires pin simms i would like to get what i paid for it for insured shipping in addition if you have a mb ns pin eisa or ps type simm for sale drop me a line thanks nimesh shah nshah acs bu edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re the infamous gateway video monitor problem info requested greg spath gks psuvm psu edu wrote in article c ueom evf odin corp sgi com mikey sgi com mike yang says so by going mailorder through gateway i save plus i get technical support over the phone free software package have fun trying to get hold of technical support over the phone at least locally you can walk right up to the dealer and tell him what is wrong and he has to fix it phone support is quick and competent from many mail order firms but not so quick and not so competent from others gateway included but my experience with computer retailers which is significant has lead to the conclusion that sales personnel and retail technical personnel are forbidden to actually learn about the products they sell talk about incompetent o k so a few percent of their answers are correct but those salesmen don t even realize how stupid they are o k i ll settle down now let me catch my breath fact retail stores never provide a better value in terms of price per product retail outlets are desirable however to those people who aren t interested in learning about computers enough to make their own decisions this is fine for example most of my education about carpeting wall paper lawn mowers microwave ovens etc has come from sales personnel i assume i must be an idiot but i don t care about those things i do however care about my computer i e i demand features and performance and i ll be damned if i ll pay some high school drop out commission on an over rated over priced system and in the process be subjected to his distorted b s g l are generally so
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re what is a shadow mask andrew bw colfelt colfelt ucsu colorado edu wrote shadow mask is when you put your face into main memory keep your day job
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re drive controller compatibility thanks to all who responded to my original post i got the number for western digital tech support and determined that i need to upgrade the bios to the super bios it will handle hard drives with up to read write heads and up to cylinders the upgrade is payable by check or money order send to western digital corporation technical support group p o box irvine ca the super bios is for any wd xt hard drive controller card in the wd series the bios on my system would only handle up to mb drives the responses to my request for help follow my sig warning it s long keith d keith rice university of north texas department of computer science denton texas usa drice ponder csci unt edu drice cs unt edu responses below from ravalent mailbox syr edu sat apr received from mailbox syr edu by ponder id aa sat apr from ravalent mailbox syr edu bob valentine received from mothra syr edu by mailbox syr edu cns id aa sat apr est received by mothra syr edu spike id aa sat apr est date sat apr est message id aa mothra syr edu to drice ponder status or to drice ponder csci unt edu subject re drive controller compatibility newsgroups comp sys ibm pc hardware in reply to drice ponder organization syracuse university syracuse ny cc in article drice ponder you write i recently bought a used seagate st hard drive the guy told me that it had been fully tested and that it was good i took it home to install in my compaq portable ok i m a little behind in technology i already had an mfm controller i installed the drive and powered up the system i got a post error my controller is a western digital wd s wx rev c as i said above the drive is a seagate st the system is a compaq portable circa ah finally a question i can answer i mess with this older stuff alot kinda fun first problem i can forsee is that the st will not be compadible with that wd card unless it has the right bios rom check the numbers on it it should be the only non smt chip on the board slightly below center and left the bios should read either or x if the last digits are you got problems controller jumpers are set as follows represents jumper w w w w w w w looks right w and w are factory jumped with a trace between pins and to select the primary controller address the drive jumpers are as follows represents jumper looks right art deleted here are my questions are the drive and controller compatible w each other i notice you left out the s jumper table settings those are what control what drive the controller thinks it has if you have the rom set it like this open open open open closed closed open open note those are how wd runs the numbers on the jumper block top to bottom s represent the jumper pins pins and select the first drive setting drive and pins and select the second drive drive if you have the rom it s a auto config and i ll have to look up how to do it i don t have the big book right here are the jumpers on the card drive set correctly see above you might have problems if the s jumpers are not right also at the risk of being insulting make sure the cables are on right and good on the jumper on the try moving it to the opposite side of the drive it s one or the other the narrow data cable goes to j i ve thrown it on j a few times and banged my head for a day is my system s bios in need of an upgrade dunno ibm roms had to be later than a quick way to check is to boot dos and run debug enter d f fff fffc the is the debug prompt this will return the rom date if it s of any use keith rice if i oversimplified any of the above i appologize it s just hard to know what caliber of person i m talking to bob valentine ravalent mailbox syr edu from chpp unitrix utr ac za mon apr received from unitrix utr ac za by ponder id aa mon apr received by unitrix utr ac za smail id m nfpma x c mon apr gmt message id m nfpma x c unitrix utr ac za from chpp unitrix utr ac za prof p piacenza subject st to drice ponder date mon apr gmt x mailer elm version pl mime version content type text plain charset us ascii content transfer encoding bit content length status or if you are using a twisted way cable then move the jumper on your drive to the neighbouring pins make sure that the twisted cable is for a hard disk and not a floppy disk the coloured stripe pin should be furthest from the twist this may also help products for xt systems hard disk controllers for mfm hard disk drives reference note wd a wx feature f r half slot size hard disk controller card with an st st interface it supports mfm drives with up to heads and cylinders and is jumper configurable for secondary addressing and default drive tables built in rom bios supports non standard drive types virtual drive formatting dual drive operation bad track formatting and dynamic formatting this board features a power connector for filecard applications and it will also operate in at systems please note that this controller card will be unavailable from the manufacturer western digital after march reference note wdxt gen feature f r half slot size hard disk controller card with an st st interface it supports mfm hard disk drives with up to heads and cylinders built in rom bios supports non standard drive types virtual drive formatting dual drive operation bad track formatting and dynamic formatting please note that this controller card will be unavailable from the manufacturer western digital after march wd a wx feature f r half slot size disk controller card with an st st interface it supports mfm drives with up to heads and cylinders and is jumper configurable for secondary addressing and default drive tables built in rom bios supports non standard drive types virtual drive formatting dual drive operation bad track formatting and dynamic formatting this board features a power connector for filecard applications and it will also operate in at systems reference note wdxt gen feature f r half slot size hard disk controller card with an st st interface it supports mfm hard disk drives with up to heads and cylinders built in rom bios supports non standard drive types virtual drive formatting dual drive operation bad track formatting and dynamic formatting reference note hard disk controllers for rll hard disk drives reference note wd x feature f r half slot size hard disk controller card with an st st interface it supports rll hard disk drives with up to heads and cylinders and is jumper configurable for secondary addressing and default drive tables built in rom bios supports non standard drive types virtual drive formatting dual drive operation bad track formatting and dynamic formatting this board features a power connector for filecard applications and it will also operate in at systems please note that this controller card will be unavailable from the manufacturer western digital after march reference note wd a x feature r half slot size hard disk controller with an st st interface it supports rll drives with up to heads and cylinders built in rom bios supports non standard drive types virtual drive formatting bad track formatting and dynamic formatting please note that this controller card will be unavailable from the manufacturer western digital after march wd x feature f r half slot size hard disk controller card with an st st interface it supports rll hard disk drives with up to heads and cylinders and is jumper configurable for secondary addressing and default drive tables built in rom bios supports non standard drive types virtual drive formatting dual drive operation bad track formatting and dynamic formatting this board features a power connection for filecard applications and it will also operate in at systems reference note wd a x feature f r half slot size hard disk controller with an st st interface it supports rll drives with up to heads and cylinders built in rom bios supports non standard drive types virtual drive formatting bad track formatting and dynamic formatting note at t the at t and the at t plus contain system bios chips that support the hard disk drive when using a western digital xt controller card the system will not boot to solve this problem one of the rom bios chips must be disabled to disable the bios on your western digital xt controller card you must remove the jumper at position w or add a jumper at position r depending on which model of xt controller you are using note tandy systems the wd a wx wd a wx wdxt gen and the wd x can be modified to operate in tandy series computers models sx tx and the original or a version these computers utilize an interrupt of irq instead of irq the ibm standard to modify the wd a wx or the wd x to operate in these systems you must cut the etch between pin and pin at jumper position w then solder pin and pin at the position w to complete the modification a jumper must be added to position of switch s rows of pins please note that any physical modification to your western digital hard disk controller voids the warranty on your board to modify the wd a wx wdxt gen or the wd x for your tandy system a zero ohm resister must be soldered to jumper position w this will change the interrupt from irq to irq xt controllers for floppy disk drives wd a fox half slot floppy disk controller for xt or at systems four versions of the board are available feature f supports two floppy disk drives feature f supports four floppy disk drives and includes an optional pin control data and power connector and an optional pin power connector feature f supports two floppy disk drives and includes a rom bios that will enable your system to recognize floppy disk drive that may not be supported by your at system rom bios the optional rom bios will also allow this controller card to operate high density floppy disk drives in an xt system feature f supports four floppy disk drives and includes an optional pin control data and power connector an optional pin power connector and a rom bios that will enable your system to recognize floppy disk drives that may not be supported by your at system rom bios the optional rom bios will also allow this controller card to operate high density floppy disk drives in an xt system products for at systems hard disk controllers for mfm hard disk drives no floppy support wd wah feature f r hard disk controller card with an st st interface it supports mfm drives with up to heads and cylinders interleave wd v mm feature f r hard disk controller card with an st st interface it supports mfm drives with up to heads and cylinders interleave the v boards can run in high speed at systems to megahertz system speed wd wah feature f r hard disk controller card with an st st interface it supports mfm drives with up to heads and cylinders interleave wd v mm feature f r hard disk controller card with an st st interface it supports mfm drives with up to heads and cylinders interleave and faster data transfer due to look ahead caching the v boards can run in high speed at systems to megahertz system speed hard disk controllers for mfm hard disk drives and floppy disk drives wd wa feature f r hard disk controller card with an st st interface full at form factor it supports mfm drives with up to heads and cylinders at interleave and floppy disk drives k and mb wd a wa feature f r hard disk controller card with an st st interface full xt form factor it supports mfm drives with up to heads and cylinders at interleave and floppy disk drives k and mb wd v mm feature f r hard disk controller card with an st st interface it supports a maximum of mfm drives with up to heads and cylinders at interleave and floppy disk drives k mb k mb the v boards can run in high speed at systems to megahertz system speed wd v mm feature f r hard disk controller card with an st st interface it supports a maximum of mfm drives with up to heads and cylinders at interleave and faster data transfer due to look ahead caching and floppy disk drives k mb k mb the v boards can run in high speed at systems to megahertz system speed hard disk controllers for rll hard disk drives no floppy support wd rah hard disk controller card with an st st interface it supports rll hard disk drives with up to heads and cylinders at interleave wd v sr hard disk controller card with an st st interface it supports a maximum of rll hard disk drives with up to heads and cylinders at interleave the v boards can run in high speed at systems to megahertz system speed feature f r includes an optional rom bios that allows the user to define the drive s parameters feature f r does not include the rom bios and you must use the drive tables on your system s rom bios that must contain the appropriate drive parameters wd rah hard disk controller card with an st st interface it supports a maximum of rll hard disk drives with up to heads and cylinders interleave feature f r includes an optional rom bios that provides additional drive parameter tables feature f r does not include the rom bios and you must use the drive tables on your system s rom bios that must contain the appropriate drive parameters wd v sr hard disk controller card with an st st interface it supports rll hard disk drives with up to heads and cylinders interleave and faster data transfer due to look ahead caching the v boards can run in high speed at systems to megahertz system speed feature f r includes an optional rom bios that allows the user to define the drive s parameters feature f r does not include the rom bios and you must use the drive tables on your system s rom bios that must contain the appropriate drive parameters hard disk controllers for rll hard disk drives and floppy disk drives wd ra feature f r hard disk controller card with an st st interface it supports a maximum of rll hard disk drives with up to heads and cylinders at interleave and floppy disk drives k mb wd v sr hard disk controller card with an st st interface it supports a maximum of rll hard disk drives with up to heads and cylinders at interleave and floppy disk drives k mb k mb the v boards run in high speed at systems to megahertz system speed feature f r includes an optional rom bios that allows the user to define the drive s parameters feature r does not include the rom bios and you must use the drive tables on your system s rom bios that must contain the appropriate drive parameters wd v sr hard disk controller card with an st st interface it supports a maximum of rll hard disk drives with up to heads cylinders and floppy disk drives k mb k mb it also features interleave and faster data transfer due to look ahead caching the v boards can run in high speed at systems to megahertz system speed feature f r includes an optional rom bios that allows the user to define the drive s parameters feature r does not include the rom bios and you must use the drive tables on your system s rom bios that must contain the appropriate drive parameters hard disk controllers for esdi hard disk drives no floppy support wd a wah this controller card will support up to esdi hard disk drives megabit per second data transfer rate and interleave feature f r includes an optional rom bios with shadow ram that will enable the controller card to interface with all types of esdi drives without modifying the system rom bios feature f r does not include the rom bios and you must use the drive tables on your system s rom bios that must contain the appropriate drive parameters wd v se me this controller card will support up to esdi hard disk drives megabit per second data transfer rate and interleave the v boards can run in high speed at systems to megahertz system speed feature f r includes an optional rom bios with shadow ram that will enable the controller card to interface with all types of esdi drives without modifying the system rom bios feature f r does not include the rom bios and you must use the drive tables on your system s rom bios that must contain the appropriate drive parameters hard disk controllers for esdi hard disk drives and floppy disk drives wd a wa this controller card will support up to esdi hard disk drives megabit per second data transfer rate interleave and floppy disk drives k mb k mb feature f r includes an optional rom bios with shadow ram that will enable the controller card to interface with all types of esdi drives without modifying the system rom bios feature f r does not include the rom bios and you must use the drive tables on your system s rom bios that must contain the appropriate drive parameters wd v se me this controller card will support up to esdi hard disk drives megabit per second data transfer rate interleave and floppy drives k mb k mb the v boards can run in high speed at systems to megahertz bus speed feature f r includes an optional rom bios with shadow ram that will enable the controller card to interface with all types of esdi drives without modifying the system rom bios feature f r does not include the rom bios and you must use the drive tables on your system s rom bios that must contain the appropriate drive parameters wd a wa this controller card will support up to esdi hard disk drives megabit per second data transfer rate interleave and floppy disk drives k mb k mb this board also has a serial port and parallel port feature f r includes an optional rom bios with shadow ram that will enable the controller card to interface with all types of esdi drives without modifying the system rom bios feature f r does not include the rom bios and you must use the drive tables on your system s rom bios that must contain the appropriate drive parameter hard disk controllers for scsi hard disk drives asc a scsi host adapter that serves as an interface between the at bus and the scsi bus all necessary drivers and receivers are included permitting direct cable connections to the scsi bus through a pin connector and to the at bus through two edge connectors the asc utilizes jumper configurable options that enable the address space dma channels and interrupt requests to be selected to suit the end user s application the board also features word data transfer at megabytes per second synchronous an on board floppy disk controller and a rom bios please note that the asc operates using standard dos or dos only fasst this scsi host adapter card provides the same features as the asc plus additional support capabilities using software developed by columbia data products the fasst will support ms dos compaq dos pc dos pc mos version xenix microsoft windows novell and sytos tape backup wdatxt fasst kit an unintelligent scsi host adapter that is compatible with the ibm xt at and compatible systems it uses a pin external scsi bus d connector with a standard pin internal scsi cable the wdatxt fasst can be used as both a target and an initiator and it serves as an excellent tool for scsi designers it also provides a low cost alternative for end users desiring to install a scsi peripheral device such as a hard disk drive or a tape backup unit the kit includes an bit scsi hba board manual fasst software diskettes and an internal scsi cable sytos tape backup utility for fasst fasst sytos fasst version of sytos tape backup utilities ms dos compatible it runs with fasst software products revision hard disk controllers for ps model systems microchannel architecture wd v mc feature f r hard disk controller with an st st interface for microchannel systems it supports mfm drives with up to heads and cylinders interleave and faster data transfer due to look ahead caching the v boards can run in high speed at systems to megahertz system speed wd v mc feature f r this controller card will support up to esdi hard disk drives megabit per second transfer rate and it contains a rom bios with shadow ram that will enable the controller card to interface with all types of esdi hard disk drives without modifying the system bios it uses interleave the v boards can run in high speed at systems to megahertz bus speed controllers for floppy disk drives only wd a fox half slot floppy disk controller for xt or at systems four versions of the board are available feature f supports two floppy disk drives feature f supports four floppy disk drives and includes an optional pin control data and power connector and an optional pin power connector feature f supports two floppy disk drives and includes a rom bios that will enable your system to recognize floppy disk drives that may not be supported by your at system rom bios the optional rom bios will also allow this controller card to operate high density floppy disk drives in an xt system feature f supports four floppy disk drives and includes an optional pin control data and power connector an optional pin power connector and a rom bios that will enable your system to recognize floppy disk drives that may not be supported by your at system rom bios the optional rom bios will also allow this controller card to operate high density floppy disk drives in an xt system prof l piacenza chemistry department university of transkei internet chpp unitrix utr ac za preferred tel internet sppp hippo ru ac za from necis mydual uucp olson transfer stratus com mon apr received from transfer stratus com by ponder id aa mon apr received from necis uucp by transfer stratus com jjm id aa mon apr edt received from mydual by necis necis ma nec com id aa apr edt received by mydual uucp smail id aa mon apr est date mon apr est from kirtland h olson mydual olson transfer stratus com message id aa mydual uucp to drice ponder subject re drive controller compatibility newsgroups comp sys ibm pc hardware in reply to drice ponder organization the harvard group reply to necis olson mydual uucp transfer stratus com cc status or suggest you move jumper on drive rightward one position regards kirt kirtland h olson harvard ma usa olson mydual uucp necis ma nec com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	com com is there a hardware standard help i need to implement com and com on a board that i m designing and i m finding it dificult to track down a definition hardware that is of com and com i have the io adresses and the fact that com shares irq with com and com shares irq with com except exactly how this irq sharing is done is not clear especially if the existing com does not allow irq sharing does the standard allow for a different irq to be used and if so how please answer by email to neil stone oz au thanks in advance neil watkinson
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re null modem pin serial bruce maynard drac uumeme chi il us wrote in article mal psuvm psu edu mitch lewars mal psuvm psu edu writes can someone give me the specs on a null modem cable i ferget which get crossed mal psuvm psu edu that s an easy one carry all pins straight thru with the exception of pins which should be crossed as someone else already mentioned don t carry thru the other pins plan a minimal null modem sg sg td rd rd td if you re transfering files betwen pcs this ought to work unless you have a persnickity comm program plan b null modem with modem control sg sg td rd rd td dcd dtr dtr dcd some comm software will wait for dcd before transferring anything such software will raise dtr to enable the modem to accept a call with this cable each side s dtr will drive the other s dcd plan c null modem with hardware flow control sg sg td rd rd td rts cts cts rts for high speed transfers you want the flow control plan d deluxe null modem combine b and c sg sg td rd rd td rts cts cts rts dcd dtr dtr dcd this one is ideal it leaves out dsr and ri rarely used anymore if you re really paranoid or you just have an th wire to spend you might add fg fg the pin numbers above are obviously for pin connectors i don t have a pin pinout handy wayne hamilton i net hamilton osiris cso uiuc edu lowtek box urbana il voice bbs
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wanted slot card with vga hdd contr hello i am looking for a pc card with the following features controller for ide at bus harddiskdrive controller for floppydiskdrives standard kb vga graphics including feature connector important there are some manufacturors distributors of this kind of card but i have not found them yet if you can help me please mail to ich djukfa ich zam zam kfa juelich de thanks a lot martin mueller
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how to program a pc keyboard itself hi all i have heard that somewhere there exist programmable keyboards eg one can program displays on the keys to show some specific characters et c does it mean that there is some way of transmitting some non trivial data to the kb as opposed to standard numlock on off typeamatic specs from inside the pc software i have not found any corresponding reference in the specs for the pc kb interface anyone have any ideas except that they may encode data by the sequences of the standard commands mentioned above which wouldn t look too neat besides what would one do from an xt great thanks in advance andrew
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dcc and minidisc next dat dds like st st brownvm brown edu wrote as far as i can tell the md is an offshoot of technology that already exists it is an mo drive mo drives exist already for computers they re expensive and a bit slow but the disks are cheep mb disks dan i read a recent article in personal computer world mainly about the new digit audion formats dcc and md but at the end talked about how nice it would be to use these for data storage with a brief calculation of how much data you could store the author had been talking to someone from sony about these formats and mentioned this to get the reply md is a purely audio format we wouldn t use it for data then when pressed for info about mo the sony man basically admitted that it was no more than a slight adaptabtion on md what i think the original poster was wanting was mo drives at md audio player prices i d assume that the problem here is that an md system can have higher tolerances than an mo system as the ear doesn t pick up the occasional bit error as well as an archiving program david shepherd des inmos co uk tel x inmos ltd aztec west almondsbury bristol bs sq they didn t like the rates they don t like the poll tax and they won t like the council tax nicholas ridley
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	problem maxtor lxt s spins down with no reason please help if you can with the following strange problem the maxtor drive in my clone would from time to time for no obvious reason spin down completely one can tell by the sound and simply refuse to be accessed dos reacts with an error drive d cannot be accessed or something the like unfortunately i cannot just reproduce the error sometimes it occurs more often sometimes less the last time it happened was when i wanted to demonstrate some software to a colleague i would like to know if anybody has experienced similar problems i don t like to take the thing to the dealer only to be told that there s nothing wrong with it i checked the other post in this group about maxtor and i don t seem to be the only one who has problems however no one describes the same problem and i also have a different configuration thanx in advance for any e mailed help peter list of equipment computer mandax mainboard mb adaptec scsi master maxtor lxt s scsi ii hard drive nec cdr cd rom reader problem remains with cd rom removed et vga card config sys files device c dos setver exe device c windows himem sys device c system aspi dos sys device c system aswcdnec sys d neccd dos high country c dos country sys device c dos display sys con ega autoexe bat c windows smartdrive sys path c windows c dos set temp c dos mode con codepage prepare c dos ega cpi mode con codepage select keyb sg c dos keyboard sys c system mscdex d neccd l d v peter schneider englisches seminar e mail pschneid es unizh ch universitaet zurich phone plattenstrasse fax ch zurich switzerland
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ati gup and vpic could someone tell me if the ati graphic ultra pro is supported in a version of vpic now if so where is it located thanks robert email replies would be appreciated robert merlicek cbr from hell robert ctpm uq oz au engage ludicrous speed
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	thanks backing up masters just a quick thanks to the many who explained the backing up of my masters apparently they are not copy protected i just used a program that is unable to handle high density old shit i was surprised to hear that no programs on high density disks have copy protection which someone back there said huh learn something new every day mitch
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	irq limits help i would like advice on how to configure my to accept com com currently on irq and lpt irq bus mouse irq sound card no idea what to do can be set to any using irq for bus mouse gobbled up too many cycles and caused loss of communications with floppy disks and a few other problems i could i suppose switch the com devices externally and disable the second port on the super io card but i really want to have them both available could the sound card use irq without horsing up the works all replies apppreciated and i only just subscribed to this newsgroup i assume there is an faq somewhere rather i m sure someone will tell me about it thanks mark fraser
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	is mb sec hd transfer slow for dx eisa with ultrastor f hi i recently switched my old amiga with a dx my computer configuration is dx mhz kb eisa micronics motherboard asic eisa mhz mb ram st n mb harddisk scsi ultrastor f eisa cache controller when i use norton harddisk benchmark i get a harddisk data transfer about kb sec and sometimes mb sec is that good i thought that with eisa i could get about mb sec somewhere in the manual for my harddisk i have read that some host adapters need to perform a low level format to optimize the harddisk performance in that system do i need that a guy i know gets a hd transfer about mb sec and he has an st a and a isa dx how can a isa with the same system be faster is there anything that i can do to get a speedier harddisk thanks phantom diku dk e mail is preffered working on a sign are we live or on tape
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dx vs dx ay in many recent advertisements i have seen both dx and dx ay based systems does the first really exists and does it imply that all ay circuitry on the motherboard with it works at that speed as opposite ay latter where only the internals of the cpu are working at mhz ay ay many thanx in advance ay ay andrew andrew yes there is a dx and dx version of the mhz if you are considering buying one or the other definitely go for the dx with a nice size external cache the performance is far greater the dx only has the internal k cache to work with at mhz while the dx has a potentially much larger cache to work at mhz with neither systems could actually run a program out of main memory since dram is still too slow for that high of bus speed ns mhz mhz rdd winqwk b unregistered evaluation copy kmail d w net hq hal k ann arbor mi us or hal bbs qwk to usenet gateway four v bis dial ins free usenet mail and newsgroups pcboard am uupcb kmail call or member of eff asp asad mb disk serving ann arbor since
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re i don t understand si mg joohwee students neural iss nus sg wrote mg i went buying simms recently and the sales person told me that the mg are chip simms and chip simms and one cannot use them interchan mg if you use one you have to use all of the same type don t believe everything you are told i can tell you that mixing them between banks ok and i can t see why mixing in one bank is not unless they are of different speeds e g mixing of ns and ns simms in one bank the two only differ in the type of chips it uses assuming that the simms are mx bit wide here is the two equivalent configuration the chip simm uses two bit wide mbit m of bit nibbles and one bit wide mbit chip for a total of bit wide mbyte the bit simm uses nine bit wide mbit chips these are equivalent because of the way that it is pinned on the simm board at the simm interface they both act as bit wide mbyte simms sorry if too techie for ya mg similarly one cannot plug in two mb simms and one mb simms to gi mg the system a total of meg why is that so if my system supports mg of meg it has simm slots can i plug in mb simms to give my mg mb that sounds correct the problem is that if your computer takes bit wide simms you can not mix different sizes in one bank why you ask simple if you understand why there is banks assuming you have a bit cpu dx or the data bus e g the mechanism to retrieve data from memory is bits wide so the computer expects to see bits when it asks for data to get that bandwidth bit wide the motherboard links mx one bit is not data but parity so i will ignore that in this simple explaination to get bits bits that means that a simm in a bank stores only of the bit wide data if you have a bit bus two mx simms are linked together to get bit wide data which is the reason why banks are simms wide and bit banks are simms wide if your computer required mx e g bit wide data with parity bits used in some ps s and asts you could upgrade by one simm at a time hope that this message is not over your head but the answer to your question was not simple i could of just said because i said so rdd winqwk b unregistered evaluation copy kmail d w net hq hal k ann arbor mi us or hal bbs qwk to usenet gateway four v bis dial ins free usenet mail and newsgroups pcboard am uupcb kmail call or member of eff asp asad mb disk serving ann arbor since
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dx km is the dx anything more than a myth i haven t heard of it km from any source that i trust and i sure don t see any ads for dx km machines in computer shopper intel is pretty busy with the pentium km right now i can t seem them introducing their own competition i heard the rumor as well but the story differed intel was not coming out with the tripling clock a clone from ibm was i got this rumor from a pretty good source has designs computer equipment and hav never been wrong let but there is a first time for everything i can just hear that rumor mill turning now rdd winqwk b unregistered evaluation copy kmail d w net hq hal k ann arbor mi us or hal bbs qwk to usenet gateway four v bis dial ins free usenet mail and newsgroups pcboard am uupcb kmail call or member of eff asp asad mb disk serving ann arbor since
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	simm speed b bk is it possible to plug in ns or ns simms into a motherboard saying bk wants ns simms you shouldn t have troubles i have heard of machines having problems with slower than recommended memory speeds but never faster bk also is it possible to plug in simms of different bk speeds into the same motherboard ie megs of ns and megs of bk or something like that sure i have ns simms in one bank and ns simms in the other i have a i wouldn t recommend mixing speeds within a bank just to be on the safe side rdd rdesonia erim org winqwk b unregistered evaluation copy kmail d w net hq hal k ann arbor mi us or hal bbs qwk to usenet gateway four v bis dial ins free usenet mail and newsgroups pcboard am uupcb kmail call or member of eff asp asad mb disk serving ann arbor since
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	vesa local bus is it possible to plug an ordinary isa card into a vesa localbus slot i am running out of slots and i have one spare localbus slot doug rabson ioc ltd email dfr ioc co uk phone drabson cix compulink co uk fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	compaq and standard simm ram help hello can anyone out there tell me if it is possible to put ordinary standard simm ram chips ns in a compaq prolinea or do compaq require special compaq ram chips please also email me thanks in advance jesper jesper honig spring spring diku dk if animals believed in god university of copenhagen denmark the devil would be a man
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	appletalk hookup what ways are there to hook up to an appletalk network to use an apple laserwriter is there a way i can use an appleshare file server also the less memory used the better thanks any help greatly appreciated
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re cmos memory loss any idea why how is the cmos backed up dry cell batteries or ni cad cell your batteries may be dead mwallack kean ucs mun ca mwallack kean ucs mun ca wrote a friend s computer recently failed to recognize its hard drive on examination it was discovered that the cmos had lost all data no other problems were discovered when the cmos was restored everything appeared to work as before this all happened after a long period of stable operation the most recent change had been the addition of a second hard drive as a slave qemm had been installed along with deskview for quite a while any ideas the computer is a dx with megs of ram an ati wonder xl card and is about a year and a half old
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dx vs dx anonymous i saw a posting about the choice between dx and a dx i was wondering although a dx is faster because of the path to it s external cache shouldn t the choice be the dx as that one can be made to work properly with a local bus i mean cache speed is one thing but all your speed will be blocked during video i o so just get that faster i m willing to speculate that the dx with local bus will be times as fast as the dx and probably as expensive or cheap regards jv name j v meuldijk o o address gildelaar hw teteringen holland e mail volkert kub nl oooo oooo
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	vga on atari monoitor is it possible to connect a atari monochrome monitor to some kind of vga card if someone have done this please let me know how thanx l l max brante m max tdb uu se l l l l l l l l l l institutionen f r teknisk databehandling l l l l l l uppsala universitet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dx robert desonia hal k ann arbor mi us robert desonia writes i heard the rumor as well but the story differed intel was not coming out with the tripling clock a clone from ibm was no rumour ibm s clock tripling chip was seen in some trade show last fall comdex or something i wasn t there all you people who are drooling after this chip do realize that it has no fpu just like sx that evil marketing ploy tm from intel don t you it has k of internal cache which probably is where the saved silicon real estate went because of some contract ibm is not allowed to sell its chips to third parties so these chips are unlikely to become available in any non ibm machines of course nothing prevents other companies from implementing a dx but nobody hasn t even come out with a real dx fpu and all clone yet although amd soon will segmented memory helps structure software
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	quantum prodrive at drive parameters needed hi i have got a quantum prodrive at ide harddisk and would like to format it when trying to format it no low level format just fdisk and dos format i somehow messed up the parameters i had entered fdisk mbr not exactly knowing what this does the suggested drive type formats the drive only to mb i tried type but this gives only around mb and not the nominal mb could i use user type however i don t know the actual parameters cylinders heads could someone give me them and how does fdisk work together with user type please reply by email to gerthd mvs sas com thank you thomas thomas dachsel internet gerthd mvs sas com fidonet thomas dachsel camel fido de subnet dachsel rnivh rni sub org uucp in germany now active phone work home fax snail sas institute gmbh p o box d w heidelberg tagline one bad sector can ruin a whole day
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re diamond stealth windows problems in article pifisinnhsr dns nmsu edu jdiers dante nmsu edu diers writes i own a stealth card from diamond when using the x x mil win driver the card and driver work but are not very fast all of the other windows drivers have a number of bugs shadows remain when windows are erased and text boxes are often unreadable all attempts to get help from diamond have failed i have called the tech support and never been able to get past the hold line a toll call in a reasonable time ie min leaving voice mail has not helped either the bbs is a joke it always has too many people on to download anything you cannot even get a file listing it considers that a download i have faxed the tech support group all this with no reponse the bottom line is if you are looking for a fast card and want to use it for windows do not get a diamond product try another vendor i wish i had while others here may have had better experiences i too share the sentiments posted above though i have the original stealth vram it is only relatively recent that the windows drivers for this card have evolved to a point of decent performance note that there are still a couple of modes i cannot use ie will not due to shadowing mis drawn check boxes etc i believe the version i have is if there s a more recent release i d appreciate if someone would drop me a note to let me know i haven t been able to get on their bbs lately to check again naturally diamond doesn t even bother notifying me of fixes releases diamond was helpful when i finally reached the right person in curing some of my windows problems due to an address conflict the conflicting addresses e e were omitted in at least my version of the diamond vram manual i hope it has been corrected by now the tech rep explained that all s based boards use these addresses i have not confirmed the validity of that statement when i upgrade my motherboard in the near future hopefully with some form of local bus i ll seek a video solution from someone other than diamond lance hartmann lance hartmann austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com yes that is a percent sign in my network address all statements comments opinions etc herein reflect those of the author and shall not be misconstrued as those of ibm or anyone else for that matter
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cards on a card motherboard this may be the dumbest question of the year but is there a way to piggyback or expand a slot motherboard all bit to get the usual my case has slots for and i d like to get a scanner but with all my other cards i m already max d out i m hoping that a simple solution exists e g an adapter that turns one slot into three i don t mind if it turns it into bit slots as i can put my i o card midi card and soundblaster card there my other cards are bit ide floppy svga modem if there is such an expander does that screw up performance of everything else i d hate to buy a new motherboard carl christensen dept of computer science christen astro ocis temple edu temple university curiouser and curiouser lc philadelphia pa usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	tape drive problems please reply via e mail since this is job related i have a colorado jumbo back up system at one of my places of employment and it has eaten two tapes by winding the tape off the spool is there an easy fix or is the tape drive fried does it simply need cleaning any and all comments will be appreciated stephen husak what am i trying to do what am i trying to say i m not trying to tell you anything you didn t know when you woke up today depeche mode nothing music for the masses stephen r husak husak ux cso uiuc edu univerisity of illinois
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re gateway dx too noisy in article bu edu lcai acs bu edu says i just received my gateway dx mini desktop system the first thing i noticed when i plugged in the power cord is the noise that comes from the fan in fact i can hear the noise in if your gateway is equipped with a western hard drive then the noise is probably coming from there and not from the fan the western drives are notoriously noisy on the other hand if you don t have a western drive then maybe it is the fan there s not alot to do about it except insulate around the cpu somehow barry aldridge u of i chicago hour bar b q standard old disclaimer
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re is mb sec hd transfer slow for dx eisa with ultrastor f in apr odin diku dk phantom diku dk haktan bulut writes hi i recently switched my old amiga with a dx my computer configuration is dx mhz kb eisa micronics motherboard asic eisa mhz mb ram st n mb harddisk scsi ultrastor f eisa cache controller when i use norton harddisk benchmark i get a harddisk data transfer about kb sec and sometimes mb sec is that good i thought that with eisa i could get about mb sec somewhere in the manual for my harddisk i have read that some host adapters need to perform a low level format to optimize the harddisk performance in that system do i need that a guy i know gets a hd transfer about mb sec and he has an st a and a isa dx how can a isa with the same system be faster is there anything that i can do to get a speedier harddisk dont rely on benchmarks they often show incorrect due to different tsr programs scsi often needs a driver to get the speed from the card make sure the card is operating in synchronus mode which is x faster you can disable disconnect and get some kb s but just to loose the mouse or other int s when diskaccesing i get mb s with dx lb and scsi lb and maxtor lxt sy coretest i get mb s sysinfo jens ejvinson nackstavagen c vii internet asyvan solace hsh se s sundsvall sweden tel act sweden fax nope advanced computer technology bbs not yet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re share your optimization tips in article apr cbfsb cb att com rmm cbnewsg cb att com richard m maniscalco writes in article pm pinnp geraldo cc utexas edu jbodnar ccwf cc utexas edu john bodnar writes according to e p unl edu edgar pearlstein here s another one my computer arrived with the following statement in its config sys file stacks i changed it to stacks and saved bytes maybe it could be lowered even more but i haven t tried it exactly regardless of what microsoft says i have set stacks on every single computer i have installed windows on from a simple sx up to dx with eisa motherboards ndi volante tiga adapters intel ethernet express cards and caching scsi controllers from dpt and dtc not a problem yet and the extra k gained means a lot with conventional memory gobbling programs like orcad and tango pcb john bodnar while we liked developing windows the university of texas at austin applications we never inhaled internet jbodnar ccwf cc utexas edu uucp cs utexas ut ccwf jbodnar borland ceo philippe kahn i remember reading somewhere qemm manual i think that stack is needed only for the windows setup program otherwise use stack rich hmmmmmm i got my comp with windows pre installed and stacks is still if it was needed only for setup wouldn t the morons take it off also i don t have the qemm manual as verything came with the comp but not the qemm manual so could anyone verify this mickey pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray jack straw from wichita cut his buddy down dug for him a shallow grave and lay his body down gd
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help needed hello i hope somebody out here can help me i am currently working on a project where i am trying to communicate from an ibm with phoenix bios using c to a board that i made with an intel cpu with uart chip the board works fine with the transmit command and terminal emulation mode of kermit but there seems to be something wrong with the initialization or protocol used when i try c i need to access the unit i built using c because i have a sizable chunk of c code that i will be using to perform calculations and operations that will be very difficult to code in assembly language for the i have included the assembly code that i am running and the c code that i am trying to use if anyone can show me something that i am doing blatantly incorrectly or that i am missing because of my lack of knowledge about rs serial communications please e mail me i wrote the assembly language to wait for a character to be received and then to check it against the x character if a x is received the leds will indicate this two c programs that i have written do nothing but set up com port and send the x character one uses the bioscom function in bios h the other uses the software interrupt int function in dos h i have triple checked the baud rate the parity none the stop bits the character length bits and the interrupt calls for x currently i am at a loss as to what may be wrong any hardware gurus out there want to comment thanks alot hubert de jesus dejesus eniac seas upenn edu intel asm command equ h command register on porta equ h port a on timerlo equ h high bits of timer timerhi equ h low bits of timer uartdata equ e h uart data register uartcmd equ e h uart command register org h sram location mvi a h set low timer bits sta timerlo mvi a h set high timer bits sta timerhi mvi a b start timer enable port a sta command mvi a h display on segment leds sta porta mvi a h clear uart command sta uartcmd sta uartcmd sta uartcmd mvi a b internally reset uart sta uartcmd lda uartdata remove extraneous data mvi a b init uart for data bits sta uartcmd no parity stop bit x async mvi a b enable transmit and receive sta uartcmd init lda uartcmd read status register ani h is rxrdy jz init no loop lda uartdata read data character cpi is character x jnz init no loop mvi a h character received sta porta display on segment leds hlt end c using bioscom include stdio h include stdlib h include bios h define init define send define receive define status define com void main char abyte abyte xa bioscom init abyte com printf initialized comm port n while bioscom status com x abyte bioscom send abyte com printf sent start character n c using int include stdio h include stdlib h include dos h include bios h main union regs registers registers h ah x registers h al xa registers x dx x int x registers registers printf com initialized n registers h ah x registers h al x registers x dx x int x registers registers printf sent start character n
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re gw and simms they are actually pin they come in and with s soon if you are interested in s or s i may be able to help please call after pm pdt i may be interested in a trade nab asan nasa it s all done with mirrors in article pq ofinne t darkstar ucsc edu banshee cats ucsc edu wailer at the gates of dawn writes in bu edu nshah acs bu edu writes i have a gateway local bus system it has slots for simms that either have to use or mb simms my question i just received a x ns simm and it has pins the slot on the motherboard has at least or so pins did i get the wrong simm or can i still use my simm although not all the pins on the slot would be flilled i have never encountered such a long slot for simms before anyone have suggestions i can t get a hold of gateway yet thanks please post to the net or nshah acs bu edu yes you got the wrong simm you need pin simms in or meg flavors the wailer at the gates of dawn banshee cats ucsc edu just who are you calling a froofroo head dod just a friend of the beast banshee ucscb ucsc edu banshee ucscb bitnet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re warranty extension by credit company applies to the phurchase of computer in article c cv mll cup hp com staggers cup hp com ken staggers writes huayong yang yang titan ucs umass edu wrote most if not all credit card companies offer to double the warranty up to one year namely if you make a purchase by a credit card you get additional warranty up to one year does it apply to the purchase of computers i wonder if anyone out there has used it is there any catch thanks in advance i am just about to post the results of my big computer purchase one of the key points was the ability to use my american express card i read the fine print between double warranty policies of amex and citibank visa sure both will allow you double warranty on computers but citibank has a maximum claim of could you imagine trying to get your monitor or mother board fixed for amex has no limit on claims remember if you use amex you must either send a copy of the warranty info to them in days from purchase or you must call them to pre register and then send them the paperwork within days of purchase my pre register pak arrived today citibank visa requires no pre registration ken i just talked to a rep for my at t mastercard regarding this there is no maximum claim and you only have to notify them of the warranty when the item needs repair if it can t be repaired you get the amount you paid for it curiously though the at t gold mastercard has a limit of on claims definitely not upgrading to that card bryan bryan welch amateur radio n sfg internet europa vnet ibm com best bwelch scf nmsu edu everything will perish save love and music scots gaelic proverb
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	eps technologies experience anyone after a rough start purchasing a system see earlier post i m trying again i m looking at the following system offered by eps technologies dx mhz w k static ram cache ami bios bit vesa local bus slots bit slots bit slot teac mb floppy drives maxtor mb hard drive ms ide w k cache buffer bit vesa local bus video card w mb ram x ni i think it s an orchid fahrenheit card ni multisync monitor x keyboard watt power supply windows mouse dos years limited warranty year on site service i m probably going to add the for a flat screen digital monitor and will also want to go for at least mb ram extra has anyone bought from eps technologies particularly a system like the one i m considering i m especially interested in their warrantee and service can anyone recommend other companies who offer similar packages with support and comparable prices i see fastmicro just bit it thanks in advance toby loftus tal brownvm tal brownvm brown edu brown university
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	looking for ad pc board this is for a friend of mine please send answers directly to him e mail adress see below highspeed analog digital pc board hello ladies and gentleman i am looking for a highspeed a d pc board with a sampling rate above mhz an a resolution of bit the sampling rate can be arranged by an interleave mode where the time equivalent sampling yields or times higher sampling rate than the a d converter uses in non interleave mode the board must content an a d converter similar to analog devices ad or ad or if available a faster on if you a pc board bit slot isa with this specification or better please send me an email hansch cdc ikph uni hannover dbp de or a telefax to thanks in advance for your help sincerely matthias hansch ikph university of hannover germany andreas heinbokel heinboke tnt uni hannover de all wisdom is print on t shirts
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	zeos vesa video changes specs as most of you know we have recently changed our standard vesa local bus video card from our own ncr based card to the new diamond stealth vlb card for packages and package still has the ncr screamer we also have added the upgrade from the stealth or ncr to the diamond viper to our product list below are the comparisons of the different cards in the configurations we will offer ncr stealth vlb viper vlb ox colors k k m k k m oox oo colors k k k k x colors x colors video processor ncr c e s c weitek power video ram m m m max ram addressable by vid processor m m m ram type dram dram vram user ram upgrade no no sockets no no sockets yes thru diamond ox refresh hz hz hz oox oo refresh hz hz hz x refresh hz hz hz oxl refresh hz hz hz pin vesa feature connector no yes no conflict with x e port addr com no yes no drivers for win yes yes yes acad yes yes yes acad no yes yes vesa yes yes yes os winnt no no no win winmarks m m m l viper vlb with m of video ram also gives oox oo m x k k and xl color s based cards since they are downward compatible will have the conflict with e diamond admits conflict will exist with the stealth the prelim viper manual incorrectly lists the s port addresses no conflict autocad drivers are now currently available for stealth speedstar x stealth vlb and viper vlb they can only be obtained from diamond tech support and not on any bbs os is supported for standard vga for all cards svga drivers available in the near future windows nt is not released yet and no drivers are available currently diamond hopes to have all current products supported in the win nt release on the nt disks ncr testing is coming from tests ran in our tech support department was at zeos at x x on zeos dx these results are not official diamond results are from their own dx x colors ohz refresh
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	please help looking for books hi netters i often have troubles with my pc and would like to fix it by myself is there any book that show you how to fix your own pc hardware monitor printer problems etc of course no book would tell you the exact problem with your pc but at least it will give a general idea what might be wrong thanks so lot for your help
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	looking for books hi netters i m looking for books that showing how to fix your own hardware problem please let me know if you have any books in mind thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re motherboard and bios in article apr news unomaha edu hkok cse kok hon yin writes can someone please tell me where can i get the best deal for micronics or ami motherboard with vl bus you can reply to me thru e mail or to this group i purchased a super voyager vlb mhz board from washburn company a month ago i don t have the mailing address clyde washburn advertises regularly in pc week he can also be reached via compuserve the phone number is i think washburn has very competitive prices compared to other ami distributers plus i liked the fact he s a ee that knows what he s talking about concerning hardware and he can be easily reached via compuserve for non critcle questions and is very informative to his customers over the phone regards dan moyer dan moyer columbiasc ncr com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	needed prodesigner iis drivers could anybody please provide me a copy of the windows drivers and grabbers from orchid technologies for use with their prodesigner iis isa video card currently i do not have access to a modem to dial out to orchid bbs if you can help me please do any of the following wichever is most convenient to you copy the binary files to a directory readable by any user in any cell of the andrew file system upload the binary files to an anonymous ftp site where allowed uuencode the files and send them to me by electronic mail please notify me by electronic mail at towwang caen engin umich edu thanks in advance francisco
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	modem for sale i am selling a usr hst k baud modem with v bis compression upgrades there is no manual as it was lost going from one side of the u s to the other at some point the modem is setup for max throughput and it has built in help but a quick reference guide on the bottom of it so its use it not difficult by any means any offers
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ibm value point acifuent acifuent isluga puc cl wrote hi i will change my soon and i read something about the ibm ps value point anyone have one the video card is really a bit card how much cost in u s and the last question can the ps value point sx mhz upgrade to a dx mhz thank you veeery much in advance alejandro cifuentes h acifuent isluga puc cl these questions can be answered by any dealer of ibm value points but i will provide some unsolicited advice the most amusing kind of advice today tueday ibm is supposed to officially announce the introduction of the vesa local bus value point systems these systems still have on board video and disk which are far better than the prior value point systems and you get vesa local bus for future upgrades we are going to buy three of them with monitors also a newly available and one of the three will immediately be upgraded to ultrastor f caching scsi disk controller and either the ati gup or the viper graphics board do not buy a sx sytem my personal philosophy on upgrade policy is that it is not loss free when you earn money you pay taxes when you spend money you pay taxes i e they get you coming and going translated this means take infrequent but large steps you are far better off short term and long term if you avoid the sx models and go straight to the dx or dx models gordon
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	netbios and bios hello everyone could anyone tell me where to find some information about netbios and bios interrupt calls a book or maybe an ftp site thank you in advance emilio
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re zeos vesa video changes specs in article apr zeos com root zeos com superuser writes ncr stealth vlb viper vlb ox colors k k m k k m stuff deleted video ram m m m max ram addressable by vid processor m m m just a note even though the can address megs of dram the stealth vlb can only handle meg unless diamond has a newer design or some special deal with zeos stephen lau elec engineering univ of hawaii using a friend s account while waiting for my new grad account death to fm synthesis go gus
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wen monitor help does anybody have any info on this monitor or the manufacturers all help through e mail please scotty
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re how much memory for wp for windows in article ps pjinndua rave larc nasa gov jka air larc nasa gov writes the documentation says that wordperfect for windows requires m of ram but when i try to install it on my laptop i get a not enough memory error message i ve unloaded everything that i possibly could but still not enough memory anyone have any ideas as to why this might be happening are you sure you re not running windows in real mode is it windows do you have a permanent swapfile built
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	scsi help howdy sorry if this has been covered before one of my pc illiterate friends asked me to help him install drdos on his nec powermate sx sx of course i said no problem and went to work unfortunately the drdos refuses to recognize the hard drive during installation even though i am still able to boot off of the hard drive using the old dos after openning it up i discovered it was using an bit seagate scsi controller on a st n scsi mbtye drive i then booted with drdos off of the floppy a second time and ran fdisk to see if i could access the drive lo and behold the primary mbyte partition was intact created by dos no less i didn t think you could go over a mbyte partition in the older doses i could be wrong i then tried to remove the primary partition which it wouldn t allow me to do i am unaware of anything special that has to be done with a scsi drive i kinda expected it to work just like an ide mfm rll drive for dos installations any suggestions would be greatly appreciated except for throw it in the garbage and buy a new pc thanks in advance paul mr scsi not fincke
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	upgrade sx to dx i m thinking of splashing out on a new motherboard for my pc i am running linux as my main os with a small dos partition left for my flatmates games my current setup is a sx amd with sx itt i think and mbytes of ns simms and mbyte ide basically i have two choices get a dx dx or get some sort of unfortunately i live in the uk where computer prices are far too high the first option works out at about pounds m boards start at this price for a sx i have a couple of questions how much of an improvement in speed should i notice if i get a dx copro remember i m using a bit os and alot of floating point operations how much faster would a dx be than the dx copro should i get an upgradeable m board with a dx and wait for amd pentium price pressure to reduce the costs of the any experiences will be most helpful kenny ps example prices dx copro m board dx m board kenneth macdonald e mail kenny castle ed ac uk dept of geology geophysics university of edinburgh scotland
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	boot problem with ide controller hi i ve got a multi i o card ide controller serial parallel interface and two floppy drives and a quantum prodrive at connected to it i was able to format the hard disk but i could not boot from it i can boot from drive a which disk drive does not matter but if i remove the disk from drive a and press the reset switch the led of drive a continues to glow and the hard disk is not accessed at all i guess this must be a problem of either the multi i o card or floppy disk drive settings jumper configuration does someone have any hint what could be the reason for it please reply by email to gerthd mvs sas com thanks thomas thomas dachsel internet gerthd mvs sas com fidonet thomas dachsel camel fido de subnet dachsel rnivh rni sub org uucp in germany now active phone work home fax snail sas institute gmbh p o box d w heidelberg tagline one bad sector can ruin a whole day
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	floppy file copying a silly question i frequently edit small files and need to make copies of them on several floppy diskettes of the same size and format but my computer is only equipped with one hd drive and one hd drive can t i do the copying without swapping files temporarily to my hard disk which is full using standard msdos commands i know diskcopy a a works but for small selections of files xcopy a txt a does not maybe i ll have to write my own file copy command in c but the idea does not amuse me thanks for your help francisco
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	needed large fast backup utility i m looking for a better method to back up files currently using a maynstream q that uses dc tapes i will need to have a capacity of mb to gb for future backups only dos files i would be very appreciative of information about backup devices or manufacturers of these products flopticals dat tape anything if possible please include price backup speed manufacturer phone and opinions about the quality reliability please e mail i ll send summaries to those interested thanx in advance claus schwinge sunyab student finances and records
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dos interlink jka air larc nasa gov j keith alston writes hi does anyone know what type of cabling is required to use the interlink capability provided in dos i tried a null modem cable and had two copies of procomm talking happily to one another but interlink kept saying no connection made i gave up and used floppies
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dx in article apr aio jsc nasa gov mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov keith mancus writes in article apr kpc com pcarmack gimp kpc com phil carmack writes there are people who are performance driven enough to do it if it weren t so people wouldn t buy pentium tm systems in the first place since they could buy a dx that would run their existing applications faster certainly a dx is in the same league as a pentium tm is the dx anything more than a myth i haven t heard of it from any source that i trust and i sure don t see any ads for dx machines in computer shopper intel is pretty busy with the pentium right now i can t seem them introducing their own competition ibm has displayed a dx as a technology demo this effectivly means here s some neat technology it is not a commitment to make such an item keith mancus mancus butch jsc nasa gov n wvr mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov black powder and alcohol when your states and cities fall when your back s against the wall leslie fish guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	local dealer service was the infamous gateway video monitor problem info requested in article gks psuvm psu edu greg spath gks psuvm psu edu writes in article c ueom evf odin corp sgi com mikey sgi com mike yang says so by going mailorder through gateway i save plus i get technical support over the phone free software package have fun trying to get hold of technical support over the phone at least locally you can walk right up to the dealer and tell him what is wrong and he has to fix it how long does he have to take in fixing it does he have to use new parts when he repairs it or can he substitute used parts without your knowledge can he charge you for repairs that should be under warranty but he claims are due to improper maintenance on your part when it comes to local dealers have fun getting consistently good support most of their techs are re treaded salesmen not trained technicians with a high turnover rate have fun getting in warranty work done quickly and courteously have fun getting out of warranty work done cheaply or even done period unless you are on a paid service contract having been both a service technician and a service manager at a computerland franchise and another retail computer place i know what i m talking about i also know the local service scam that retail computer dealers like to push when they re selling it s that same old song that car dealers having been singing for years buy from me and you ll get good service we always treat our customers right buy from my competition and you ll be sorry if you need service experienced mail order buyers know that there are some mail order companies that give excellent service including overnight replacement parts on site calls etc there are probably some local dealers that can give you good service too but if you think all local dealers give consistenly good service you are wrong i have many anectdotes to prove my point but i m sure there are others on the net can do a better job than i can ted drude tbdrude infonode ingr com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re gateway uart chip in article spiroc bssw drq netcom com spiro netcom com philip n spiro writes george a theall theall gdalsrv sas upenn edu wrote in article dickyjc b h bmt netcom com dickyj netcom com dicky johan writes it seems that there are using the uart chip in the machine is that the same as the uart chip which has a bytes buffer no it s not according to the sales critter i spoke with last week though gateway does use socketed chips you should be able to find the afn for about and upgrade the chip yourself minor nuisance for whatever it s worth my gw salesman said that their would do kbps and was soldered to the board will someone with a recent gw pls settle this by inspection phil phil spiro spiro netcom com mine has a sodered right on the card why would you need the anyway from what i ve heard when you re multitasking its fifo buffer keeps you from loosing data is this right bryan luff math comp sci cal u of pa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	genius mouse driver hello fellow netlanders i have a genius mouse model gm but no driver for it it s a button mouse if anyone that s got one of theese could mail me a driver config sys or autoexec bat i would be very happy staffan ungsgard internet telesoft norden ab staffan ungsgard nynashamn telesoft se utsiktsvagen phone nynashamn sweden fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	application errors on win h e l p i have a problem in which i m getting increasing frustrated every day some background about my pc american megatrend bios clone sx with m of ram config sys file device c dos himem sys dos high umb device c windows emm exe noems files buffers stack autoexec bat file is using smartdrv exe c cmos set up is running wait state on read and write cache ram the problem application error from win i started off with a newly installed win and then installed excel run excel no problem a permanent swap file of size k was in place for windows ok i then proceed to install norton desktop for windows version no problem with the installation i also allow ndw to alter my autoexec bat with the nav running on c the problem came when i try to bring up excel or if excel is running and right in the middle of it like click a selection with the mouse from the desktop first of all i always get the application error screen followed by another application error screen with various different messages the following are some of them stack fault by tc drv at address xxxx where xxxx is some number tc drv is the vga driver provided by the manufacture general protection fault by ndw exe at the same address segment load failure by ndw exe at same address some how the address flagged was always something what is address xxxx means i have absolutely on idea what this mean i tried commented out the tsr programs from autoexec bat no help is it something to do with the emm setup which is not telling win what it suppose to know looks like the application is crossing memory boundary when it is being loaded or while it is running please reply if you have any idea or suggestion i m willing to try anything steve chu at t bell labs holmdel nj
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re summary information on pc s local bus specification in article apr inesc pt jma ingrina writes stuff deleted pci intel bus its not completely defined yet some people think of it as a long term solution larger fanout not so cheap complex chipset a friend who owns a company that builds clones shared with me the fact that the pci chipset is not expensive how about many money hungry clone makers no doubt will attempt to price the boards high only because it s new technology lance hartmann lance hartmann austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com yes that is a percent sign in my network address all statements comments opinions etc herein reflect those of the author and shall not be misconstrued as those of ibm or anyone else for that matter
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dx vs dx in article apr kub nl volkert kub nl volkert writes anonymous i saw a posting about the choice between dx and a dx i was wondering although a dx is faster because of the path to it s external cache shouldn t the choice be the dx as that one can be made to work properly with a local bus i mean cache speed is one thing but all your speed will be blocked during video i o so just get that faster i m willing to speculate that the dx with local bus will be times as fast as the dx and probably as expensive or cheap technically there is no reason why a chip set cannot support a dx and a mhz local bus i m waiting for the mezzianine sp vl bus that will be decoupled from the main cpu clock and allow for many more slots due to the user of buffers this will allow the use of ever faster cpus with the same standard i o cards until the next buss spec regards jv name j v meuldijk o o address gildelaar hw teteringen holland e mail volkert kub nl oooo oooo guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	tangent computer eisa lb system has anyone here dealt with tangent i m looking at an system they have that has an eisa backplane with a vesa slot for video the scsi contoller they use is made by aorta i ve never heard of this brand can anyone comment on tangent or the controller thanks david
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re simm speed in article apr news unomaha edu hkok cse kok hon yin writes robert desonia robert desonia hal k ann arbor mi us wrote b bk is it possible to plug in ns or ns simms into a motherboard saying bk wants ns simms you shouldn t have troubles i have heard of machines having problems with slower than recommended memory speeds but never faster it should run without any trouble of course but why do you want to buy some ns and mixed them with ns ns is more expensive than ns and furthermore your machine will run the slowest simms clock speed eventhough you have ns just my cents thought your machine will run at whatever the bus is jumpered to cmos is set to usually wait states regardless of what speed ram is installed no motherboard can sense the speed of the ram installed unless you call failing as a sort of auto sense this is how you can sometimes use slower ram in a machine you either set the number of wait states to accomodate the slow ram in which case all memory will run at that slower rate or you reduce the wait states and take the chance that the slower ram will act like faster ram and you won t crash putting faster ram in won t speed things up unless you tell the machine it has faster ram mixing fast and slow ram will not help you if you have to keep the bus slowed down to accomodate slow ram jiml mailer address is buggy reply to jiml strauss ftcollinsco ncr com james lewczyk x ncr mpd fort collins co jim lewczyk ftcollinsco ncr com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re tape drive problems in article ux cso uiuc edu husak ux cso uiuc edu stephen r husak writes please reply via e mail since this is job related i have a colorado jumbo back up system at one of my places of employment and it has eaten two tapes by winding the tape off the spool is there an easy fix or is the tape drive fried does it simply need cleaning any and all comments will be appreciated stephen husak what am i trying to do what am i trying to say i m not trying to tell you anything you didn t know when you woke up today depeche mode nothing music for the masses stephen r husak husak ux cso uiuc edu univerisity of illinois does it do it to all tapes were the two tapes that it unwound of the same type from the same batch the reason i ask is that i bought some generic tapes that did this and found that the tape markers were not fully punched out and had closed the little marker hole it was only on a few tapes of a set did you open up the tape cartridge and put the tape back on the reels if you have not yet open it up by removing the two screws on the bottom of the tape cartridge and snap the plastic shell away from the metal base as you are pulling the tape through the assembly try not to touch any more than you have to as you are doing it look for a couple of little holes in the tape these are the marker holes which let the tape drive know when it is at the end of the tape the holes are spaced a couple of inches apart my best guess is that the drive finds the first marker and then stops on the second marker anyhow if the tape has the holes then check to see if the mirror on the tape is clean the function of the mirror is to detect the marker holes the tape drive shines a light at the mirror and has a pickup in the area where the reflection would come out when the hole goes by the pickup detects the light that was allowed to pass and it knows when to stop if the mirror is dirty or out of alighment unlikely since it is made into the case you might have a problem detecting the end of the tape if the tape drive does it on all tapes and the tapes all look good then either the pickup or the led of the sensor system has failed or is dirty if you open the drive door you will see the sensor assembly to the left of the r w head assembly if it looks clean and nothing is in its way then the drive may need to be serviced it is possible that the led is burned out or the sensor is out if it is still in warranty you might be able to send it back to cms for repair scott hiles whiles relay nswc navy mil standard disclaimer the opinions expressed are those of my own and do not necessarily reflect those of the dod or the navy i accept full responsibility
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	what is a rapid tech squeeze card hi i am going through a box of old ibm card and came across one called a rapid technology squeeze card it is dated and has a mhz crystal on it and a big chip that has c cube on it no connectors to the outside but a ribbon type pin connector on the board it is a bit board any ideas what it is phil phil hunt wherever you go there you are howtek inc internet phil howtek mv com uucp decvax harvard mv howtek phil
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dx in article iisakkil apr lk hp hut fi iisakkil lk hp hut fi mika iisakkila wrote because of some contract ibm is not allowed to sell its chips to third parties so these chips are unlikely to become available in any non ibm machines i saw in this months pc or pc world an ad for computers using ibm s slc so i don t think ibm is restricted in selling their chips at least not anymore a clock tripled even without coprocessor would be great especially with k on board cache make it pin compatible and you have the chip upgrade that dreams are made of taka mizutani takaharu mail sas upenn edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re problem with maxtor mb ide drive first of all thanks to those of you who responded both here and via e mail the tips didn t pan out but it was good hearing from you now following up to my earlier post disk controller acculogic side hard floppy ide controller jumpers all defaulted shown as normal irq delayed irq primary secondary floppy address single dual speed floppy primary secondary ide address precomp ns ns iochrdy not driven ide drive controls iochrdy other cards didn t check brand serial parallel adapter logitech bus mouse adapter roland mpu compatible midi interface configured with default irq mem address i opened up the box and removed all the other cards above no help there then not having anything better to try i changed normal irq to delayed irq on the disk controller didn t make any difference and iochrdy not driven to ide drive controls iochrdy also had no effect so i put everything back to the way it was and re installed the cards i then unplugged the floppy drive cable from the disk controller voila the pc booted from power up although it seemed to take several seconds before the first access to the hard disk plug the floppy cable back to the controller and the original non boot behavior returns o k with this additional information does anyone in netland have any words of wisdom for what s going on and how i should deal with it larry still un plugging away byler
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dos board with ports i m posting this for a friend that runs a bbs i m not sure if its under dos or windows he is interested in a board that has ports on it in another post someone suggeted a digiboard but didn t have too much info on it could someone give me information on any boards that they know of with the before mentioned configuration models specifications prices manufacturers thanks rob robert walker walker cs umn edu computer science dept university of minnesota
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re mb isa limit marka ssd csd harris com mark ashley writes in the latest pc magazine pentium isssue there is an editorial on the advantages of a pc using eise vesa lb rather than just plain isa vesa lb supposedly users will eventually want more than mb of ram however since the isa bus has only bits then anything on the bus can access only mb even if i have mb on the motherboard so far i agree with the arguments then the writer claims that glitches can occur in systems with over mb because of that limit that part i don t understand because the ram is right on the motherboard so the cpu should have no problems talking with the ram can anybody explain this the problem is with isa bus masters which can only address the first mbs of system memory bus masters do not use the cpu nor the system dma to do the actual data transfer but transfer their data directly to the system ram rp roger c pao gordius bagdad pride mts rpao rpao mts mivj ca us
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	hard disk question hi i just disassembled my old xt and get disk drives m hard drive and a k floppy drive my questions are can i use these drives as drives d e on my sx this sx currently has m hard drive m m floppy drives if i can what s w or h w do i need please send your advice comments to aovai qube ocunix on ca thanks a lot av via dlg pro v
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re pc x to following up my own note ted richards ted isgtec com wrote al devilbiss al col hp com wrote it looks like everything works as advertised but i am disappointed with the speed i m using an intel internal k modem in the pc with telebit k on the unix end which are currently limited to kbits by the unix com link to get a quantitative comparison i did cat file where file is kbyte uncompressed ascii text and it took seconds to scroll through an x window over the modem link chars sec using the identical hardware and procomm fw the same cat file takes seconds chars sec btw i use ncd pc xview on my pc at work hp every day for the same unix access from a pc over a lan and like that just fine the same cat file scrolls by in seconds on the lan connection i just tried a few experiments i cat d a byte file lines under various scenarios pc xview for dos in a full screen os window x x sec telix dos in an os window xs x sec telix dos is a full screen os window standard vga sec telix dos in a windows window x x sec uw win in a seamless os window x x gave up after min uw win in windows x x faster but gave up after min uw win in a seamless os window using pg sec could have been a little faster i had to keep hitting the space bar i was using an ati wonder xl video card by the way so pc xview for dos looks pretty good and the line by line scrolling in os desktop looks pathetic although full page redraws are pretty good i tried it under pc xview using my normal x bold or x font and with a very small font and there was no difference in the times the modem receive light was on pretty solidly so it looks like the bottleneck was the baud modem not the screen drawing ted richards ted isgtec com uunet ca isgtec ted isg technologies inc airport rd mississauga ont canada l v s
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ram boards on a hello i have a sx isa machine with pheonix bios currently i have megabytes of ram installed via eight mg simms on the motherboard ie both banks are full and there is no space for more simms i am thinking of running os on my machine and possibly linux with x windows and i know that more ram would be helpful however with simms the only solution i can see is to sell my megs for about and by mg simms for about used apart from the fact that i can t afford the price right now the entire process of selling ram and buying it used probably means that the machine might be down for a number of days which i would rather avoid so my question is do the at ram boards that plug into a free slot work well with a isa machine i have seen some being sold used for about with mg with space for another mg s if these boards do work how do they do it is a device driver needed or will the bios pickup the extra ram as it does with the simms on the mother board i know that the isa expansions slots are bits and simm memory is bits so probably all of this is just wishful thinking however any help is truly appreciated eric ebosco us oracle com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help my hard drive id messed dave david c cat uucp wrote vazzag vccnw its rpi edu gregory anthony vazzana writes howdy the other day i was using norton s speeddisk to optimize my seagate mb h problem persisted i backed up all essential data and decided to reformat my hard drive when i attempted this it got to the th clylinder th head and gave me an error message saying that it could not find the sector i have tried everything i can think of now i can t even access my hard driv to write information to it i tried to boot up with my ms dos disks but ms d tries to reformat my hard drive and gets of the way through to say error formatting hard drive press f to exit i tried to scan my hard drive for viruses but i can t access it and i get a message when i try to do a dir saying error int can anyone help me i have no idea what to do thanks in advance for any help greg try a bios level format via the debug command g xxxx where xxxx is the hex address of the hd controller bios location if this will not work a last resort would be to take a large magnet to the hard disk but this has to be done properly or you will cause or could cause more damage than has been done already disclaimer i am not responsible for your actions by directly applying a large magnet to your hard disk if done correctly the magnet trick will wipe out everything on the hard disk completely and a low level bios format might succeed david china cat bbs c cat david sed csc com n uunet mimsy anagld c cat david
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	laserjet iv upgrades to dpi opinions what are the current products available to upgrade the resolution which ones support postscript any experiences with them either good or bad is the quality difference really noticable i m planning on producing camera ready copy of homes will the higher resolution be noticed for these
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re why vesa local bus in article apr cc umontreal ca gregof jsp umontreal ca grego filippo writes hi fellow netters i have a question for you i am gonna buy a dx mhz with vesa local bus is the speed benefit that great would it be wise to spend on a local bus system hd controller and graphic card for normal use i mean i won t use it for a server also i read an article from someone sorry i can t remember your name and he said that even though you have a local bus hard disk controller your performances won t be that much greater because of the disk s throughtput so what is the use of having a fast bus if the peripherals can t cope with it something to bear in mind is what the v in vlb stands for v for video the origional intention of the bus was to speed up the bus so that large memory to memory transfers would be faster this is espically useful in transfering data from main memory to video memory since there are usually vlb slots card makers have been making cards to fit in the other two how about an vlb ethernet card move the data into the card at odd mb s and then wait for it to tickle onto the net at just over mb s do do however free the local bus for other cards some times you need fast busses and sometimes you don t thank you gregof jsp umontreal ca guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re another happy gateway owner in article apr infonode ingr com kbputt infonode ingr com ken putt writes don t they always of course they re so much more expensive than most other quality competitors like who f rinstance when i bought my system november no first second or third tier vendor could touch the price for the hardware software combination i got from gw another good thing i have read in the midst of all the gateway horror stories if you were selling as many systems as fast as gw you d end up with four or five pissed off customers too and four or five ecstatic ones and lots of satisfied ones they have an excellent return policy don t minimize this if you buy mail order it s a good thing to know that you ll get replacements parts no questions asked in a day or two via fedex they re very impressive systems when they work which they do in the vast majority of cases remember that it s only the people on the tails of the curve who are motivated to write the ones who love it and the ones who hate it you don t hear from the folks in the middle very often they have rough edges no doubt about it but they give good value per dollar and use almost all top quality components
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dos in article eastman uucp lrxi icts kodak com james nonnemacher writes is there enough experience out in netland with dos that anyone could make some comments on whether or not it s a worthwhile upgrade any problems with hardware compatibility or any bugs been found one thing i wonder about is the disk doubler included with dos is there any possiblity that if the disk double exe file gets corrupted your disk would be unreadable how would one recover from such an event the file that would be a problem is dblspace bin not exe arf ooo ooo bill burge burge qdeck com and his dog spot problem resolution prevention bbs n quarterdeck office systems fax qfax tech support support qdeck com this is an automated request gen l info info qdeck com fax system call it from the compuserve go quarterdeck handset on your fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes this doesn t answer the original question is os a multi user os and no mention was made of an ether card either but from a disk data point of view why does scsi have an advantage when it comes to multi tasking data is data and it could be anywhere on the drive can scsi find it faster can it get it off the drive and into the computer faster does it have a better cache system i thought scsi was good at managing a data bus when multiple devices are attached if we are only talking about a single drive explain why scsi is inherently faster at managing data from a hard drive you are making the same mistake i did you are confusing the drive interface to the data throughput interface again from my mac ibm info sheet available by ftp on sumex aim stanford edu in the info mac report as mac ibm compare txt expansion both mac ibm scsi only external device expansion interface common to both mac and ibm allows the use of any device hard drive printer scanner nubus card expansion mac plus only some monitors and cd rom apple developed some specifications for scsi controlers while ibm has no exact controller specifications which results in added incompatibilities on ibm machines main problem there are a lot of external devices which are internal terminated which causes problems for more then two devises off the scsi port a scsi chain is supposed to be terminated only at the begining and at the end any other set up causes problems for either mac or ibm scsi devices per scsi controller bit asynchronous mb s ave and synchronous mb s max transfer base bit scsi requires a scsi controler chip and can provide only fast scsi not wide scsi which are both bit interfaces see scsi scsi devices per scsi controller in scsi mode scsi is fully scsi complient and tends to be implimented as a very fast scsi since it needs a different controller interface in both hardware which tends to be very expendsive and software transfer speeds are mb s with mb s burst bit mb s with mb s burst bit and mb s with mb s burst bit wide and fast scsi in scsi mode is limited to devices and reduced bit or bit fast only throughput due to the difference between scsi and wide scsi ports ibm hd interfaces limited to hard drives by design or lack of development ide integrated device electronics currently the most common standard and is mainly used for medium sized drives can have more than one hard drive asynchronous transfer mb s max so at its lowest setting scsi interface in asynchronous scsi mode averages the through put maximum of ide in asynchronous mode in full scsi mode it blows poor ide out the window down the street and into the garbage can the problem becomes can the drive mechanisim keep up with those through put rates and that is where the bottleneck and cost of scsi comes from not the interface itself but more and more from drive mechanisims to use the scsi through put the cost of scsi interface is a self fulliling prophisy few people buy scsi because it is so expencive for the pc which in turn convices makes that mass producing scsi which would reduce its cost is unwarented and so scsi is expencive that is the effect of the rule of scale the more items sold the less each item has to bare the brunt the cost of manufacture and so the less each item has to cost scsi allows a drive mechanisims through put to be limited by the drive while ide itself limits the through put
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re memory slot problem in article qiijs t bigboote wpi edu ralf wpi wpi edu ralph valentino writes i finally decided to upgrade my eisa s memory from meg to meg two months after the parts warranty ran out on the anigma motherboard two months too late it seems there s a problem with one or both of the two m mx bit sim slots in bank b on boot i get a pattern test failure at address xa and the system deconfigures the top meg the sims are good i tried rotating all of them into bank a on one of the configurations however the pattern test deletions failed at x in all tests the pattern that appeared was the same as the pattern if no sim was in place this leads me to believe the one or two of the connector address pins are at fault and with a lot of luck might be patchable ralph ralph valentino ralf chpc org ralf wpi wpi edu hardware engineer worcester polytechnic institute center for high performance computing marlborough ma many motherboards have jumpers to enable disable the memory banks did you check that out allen mulvey mulvey blurt oswego edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	please help with purchasing a the last time i was in microprocessor lab was in using z so i don t know a lot of buzz terms in pc hardware now i need to purchase a help me to ask the right questions motherboard i need with mb ram with additonal slot for more mb i would like to get two vesa local bus one for video not sure what am i going to do with the other it must be able to run unix what are other questions that i should ask to ensure getting a quality stuff what are other important features monitor i want a non interlaced svga but not sure about what brand to get i can t afford nec or sony what brands should i consider acer touch what else should i ask video card i would like to run framemaker so i need a fast video card is western digital worth the over cirrus logic do i need more than m of v ram one company wanted more for a local bus video card is this normal hard drive segate western digital conner all have the same price which one is more liable which one has better performace case power supply given the choise of desktop and minitower which one is better what is the adequate power supply is cooling a general problem or a non issue what features should i ask for did i miss anything i am sure that there are a lot of semi pc literates reading this group your help is greatly appreciated jason chen
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re why vesa local bus guyd austin ibm com guy dawson writes how about an vlb ethernet card move the data into the card at odd mb s and then wait for it to tickle onto the net at just over mb s how about mb s for bit vlb or mb s for quickring apple s implimentation of vlb byte quickring is interesting in that it allows interleaving with other card so that the mb s can be divided among many cards at the same time nubus and mca are about the only card interfaces able to do anything with that kind of speed and even nubus ditzes around at mb s with a burst mode mb s mca also called micro channel ibm s and bit bus allows use of more than one cpu in a computer dct and anything can talk to anything as fast as the two components involved can handle it never took off because it was incompatible with isa and eisa planned to be bus interface of ibm powerpc carl jabido ida can t handle vlb speed never mind quickrings s speed so it is out eisa pokes along at nubus mac ii speeds mb s burst mode mb s so vlb and quickring are slowed down by it pci is a competing interface that is still in development
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re isa to eisa in article apr envmsa eas asu edu firman envmsa eas asu edu b b s writes in article casey apr grace wharton upenn edu casey grace wharton upenn edu shawn casey writes hello i have a question for anyone that may be familiar with isa and eisa sytem configurations after i switch the isa boards into the eisa board all of the cards are isa the system seems to work with no problem what so ever but some of the interupt problems that we had with the isa board continue with the eisa board is it my understanding that the eisa board should be able to handle irq conficts when running windows problem when running our network via telnet tcp ip with windows running the system kicks us out of windows irq confict within windows i assume also are there any memory address problems that will happen when the boards are switched base memory that is as far as i know if you are using eisa mother board you have to use also eisa cards or else your computer system will be slower than when you re using isa board with isa cards bill that s nonsense you can use isa cards in an eisa system without problem and at the same speed as in an isa system luke
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re original ibm pc specs in article apr ucbeh san uc edu hoffmamc ucbeh san uc edu writes a hard drive with xt type controller can be added but i recommend not trying a full height hard drive as i have run into trouble with the w supply not having the oomph to spool up those big heavy platters one way to get the system going with one floppy drive and one hard disk on a watt power supply is to first disconnect the power from the floppy drive than turn on the pc you will notice the hard drive having a real difficult time getting up to speed but it manages when booting is finished plug in your floppy drive now it will work ok i know this is not very user friendly maybe you are better off buying a with watt power supply or something like that willem
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re fd controller question in article apr nwnexus wa com paulf halcyon com marlboro man writes i am looking for a way to access the floppy drive at the i o level that is lower than the bios given the port assignments what controller chip spec sheet do i need info on my floppy is a m and i would also like to be able to write code that works on k disks as well also with the method of access is it possible to actually read the individual bytes on the track as they stream into the controller i m afraid the sector handling is done purely through hardware if on the off chance i can get this basic on the access anything to point me in the right direction would help a lot there is a file out there look for it with archie that is called theref zip which has lots of info on various pc things amongst which is also a detailed description of all floppy controller commands i think hard drive controller commands are not there it is possible to read an entire track including all gaps sector headers etc by setting sector size to something very large like k willem
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re adding hard drive to original ibm pc in article c dxbs ov panix com schuster panix com michael schuster writes in article lsj ruinnl o saltillo cs utexas edu goolsbey cs utexas edu keith goolsbey writes i have an original ibm pc not an xt or at that has never had a hard drive questions do i need new bios to add a hard drive does anyone sell a complete package to do this please e mail me with suggestions i only need to add about a meg or meg hard drive sent by mail too you need the bios which has support for rom bios extensions such as the rom on a hard disk controller a mb hard card available for not much over will do the trick if you have the proper bios date use norton si or similar program to find out you also need to set the correct switch settings on your xt controller which can be a pain since most pc s don t come with proper docs for all hardware contained inside it
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	western digital hd info needed i was recently loaned an older dec at work and i have the option of adding an additional western digital hard drive to the machine the existing drive is currently a western digital as well and is working fine but i do not have any documentation available for configuring the master slave relationship necessary for a c d drive setup the first drive is currently formatted to tandy dos v but i am eventually going to upgrade both to ms dos v the drives themselves are both model number wd a circa they are cyl head drives a note to add is that there is no exact configuration for these in my current bios but it seems to work at a setting cyl head write pre landing zone there are three pairs of jumper pins on the back that i presume are for setting up the master slave originally the drive in the machine had none currently i was suggested to try the far right looking at the back for master and the middle jumper for the slave when booted the reinitialize seems to puke accessing the d drive it does flicker about three times on the second drive but then gives the error hopefully the problem is as simple as the drive not being formatted but not being a person who has ever had to actual format and unformatted drive i would not even know how to do that any and all help on this is great fully appreciated if not a number for western digital might just do as good swood hunting over in michigan don t despair no closed season on opossum porcupine weasel red squirrel skunk starlings feral pigeons english sparrows ground squirrel woodchuck anyway trout season opens the last saturday this month
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dx vs dx in article qd bcinnmep golem wcc govt nz hamilton golem wcc govt nz michael hamilton writes do you really need to switch to a dx instead of a dx as i understand it dx s can have local bus devices on the mother board but not local bus slots and according to what i been told many systems go beyond the vesa local bus standard in order to provide dx systems with a local bus slot capability i have definitly seen a mother board with local bus slots which claimed to be able to support any cpu including the dx and dx can someone throw some more informed light on this issue you will need to check with peripheral makers to see if their boards will work at mhz some will with some motherboards tony catone compstat wharton upenn edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re do i need intelligent serial i o bill writes no buy the serial port and modem each can be used for other things you can use the modem with your next computer might not be a pc or upgrade the modem without changing the box i hear that isdn is big in europe you might be able to get one of those beautiful isdn modems for less than the pice of a car someday k bidirectional bill davidsen ge corp r d center box schenectady ny unfortunately the curent united states standard on isdn is kbit but i suppose whats kbit c kup from aka christopher kuperman the holistic systems consultant email zork yoyo cc monash edu au giv a man a fish he ll eat for a day teach him how to fish he ll eat for ever
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	what s the difference between pin and pin simms hi can anyone tell me the difference between pin and pin simms i wish to get detailed information about the origin of these two different types of simms preferably a magazine review aricle by the way if there is a faq for this group which covers the simms information please also direct me to it any help information would be very much appreciated sincerely yu jen wu dept of ee univ of maryland yjwu eng umd eu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re sun cd rom on pcs in article apr c p novell de pbartok c p novell de peter d bartok writes great but don t let your effort and talent be un noticed put the program on the net upload it to some anonymous ftp sites so people at least me can have it and appreciate it please put it into ftp novell de pub incoming pc ok the small programme that can be used to switch a suncd drive into bytes block mode for use with msdos adaptec apsi it now available by ftp from ftp novell de pub pc adaptec cdblksize zip juergen keil jk tools de uunet mcsun unido tools jk
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	sorry another gateway posting i never thought i d contribute to a gateway thread either pro or con but my spleen could use a little venting the scenario ordered a dx w ultrastor f local bus hd controller receive system days after ordering happy discover ultrastor f isa hd controller inside unhappy call gateway receive the correct controller in days getting happier new controller doesn t work unhappy again call gateway again get another controller in more days cooling off the end is in sight this controller doesn t work either motherboard is bad very unhappy gateway s solution they will order me a new motherboard more days and have on site service install it for me but i have to take a day off of work because the service people only work m f i say no way i ve already blown about hours with this about of them on hold and i don t have the time or to take a day off work also my day return period is almost over and i ve only been able to use the thin for about minutes so the whole thing is going back i was extremely upset when i began this post because the support rep told me that i would have to pay shipping not only for the returned system but also the two hard drive controllers they had sent me fortunately i just spoke to customer service and they are going to have ups come and pick everything up gratis the only downside is that now i have to order another computer i would really like to try gateway again i m just very turned off by the prospect of having to try and get through to customer service or tech support again i think their products are great for the most part but i m beginning to wonder if the savings are worth the potential aggravation are other mail order companies as difficult to contact i know gateway is booming and for good reason but i don t know if i can take it again oh well i feel better now mark devaney hear me now and believe me later georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia internet markd cc gatech edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	adaptec a problem hello i have recently suffered from various problems concerning an adaptec a controller problem floppy disk drive doesn t work there s apparently at least two jumpers on the controller that affect the floppy disk drive unfortunately i have located only one of them in the lower front corner i would like to know if there are any other such jumpers and possibly where they are located problem my hard disks refuse to boot with my two scsi hd s rodime miniscribe i get a message missing operating system even though the disks have been formatted with the same controller and they damn sure have an operating system on them if i boot from a quantum i might get as far as getting the ms dos version information this might of course be due to incombatible memory drivers are there any jumpers that could affect the hd causing such errors thanks in advance jouni jouni marttila yo kyl b turku finland jmarttila abo fi jmarttila finabo abovax jmarttila jjmartti utu fi pgp key available via finger jmarttila abo fi
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	tape backup question hello folks i have an archive xl internal qic tape drive which is pretty comparable to the colorado jumbo since i have two floppy drives in my system i m using a small card not accelerated made by archive to attach my tape drive as a third floppy device the problem although the dos based qicstream software works just fine both the norton and central point backup programs for windows fail unless i switch the machine to non turbo speed i m using a dx eisa since the dos software works it can t be a hardware problem can it has anyone seen similar problems any solutions thanks in advance jerry j shekhel molecular simulations inc time just fades the pages drummers do it burlington ma usa in my book of memories in rhythm jerry msi com guns n roses
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re new cd rom for gateways and misc info terry clark tclark news weeg uiowa edu wrote the upgrade to a nanao i is now this monitor will handle x at a vertical refresh of hz not according to nanao the i will not do better than hz at x btw gateway told me the same thing phil phil spiro spiro netcom com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	recommendations for a local bus cached ide controller hi i would like to hear the net wisdom and net opinions on ide controllers i would liek to get a ide controller card for my vlb dx motherboard what are good options for this preferably under it must also work under os and be compatible with stacker and other disk compression s w please advise divya divya live long and then die a slow and horrible death what confucius wanted to say
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	tape backup for windows i m looking for a complete hw sw solution i need an isa vlb scsi controller e g ultrastor f plus a tape drive mb or less like archive plus a windows program that will work on these my intended system will have mb ram so plain isa controllers will no longer do but i also hear that the scsi world is not very organized so does anybody have a tape backup setup like what i m looking for please describe it thanks e mail please marka gcx ssd csd harris com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	refresh rates of nec fgx can someone tell me the maximum horizontal and vertical refresh rates of the nec fgx not the fge thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ftp problem on gateway dx we have a gateway dx with a smc elite series ethercard plus when we use ncsa ftp to send from the gateway with hash turned on we see hash marks immediately then the computer r e a l l y drags if we turn off the internal cache of the the speed is better but doesn t match the speed when we receive to the gateway it doesn t matter if we send from the gateway or get to it hash marks and then extreme slowness if the cache is not disabled does anyone know any more about this is there a fix the gateway was purchased in june please respond directly you wouldn t believe how slow the news is on this system thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re soundblaster irq and port settings in article qjv t bogus sura net vargish bogus sura net nicholas vargish writes a soundblater sb card is supposed to share irq with lpt parallel printer interface and in general this scheme works well however sometimes there are conflicts it seemed to depend on the software more than anything else origin games are especially bitchy about having the whole interrupt to themselves my solution was to switch the interrupt to irq which is unreserved in contemporary computers using irq for the drives went out with the xt architechture don t put the sb in irq if you have an xt get a new computer instead this irq has been completely stable for me and i use my sb to play mods and wavs under linux a free un x for or better pc architecture machines with no problems as well as games under dos i also use irq but there is one disadvantage some games assume that the board is using irq and have no way to adjust this setting i had trouble with some of the lucas films games peter geltner administrative dean of computing santa monica college santa monica california
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	references needed on memory management i am doing a report on the topic of advanced memory management and need to know of some good references to cover this topic it is an analytical chemistry class on instrumental analysis so as you could guess it doesn t have to be an extremely thorough or extensive covering of the topic also i am a chemical engineer and know some but not too much about memory management if anyone could help point me in a good direction i would be very thankful thanks in advance joe bleazard gt b hydra gatech edu school of chemical engineering georgia institute of technology atlanta ga
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re pc x in article isgtec isgtec com ted isgtec com ted richards writes al devilbiss al col hp com wrote i just brought up ncd s pc xview windows version to use over a modem link to a unix system at hp installation is easy but you need a program also from ncd called xremote to run on the unix host total software cost for one seat was anyone here know if ncd is doing educational pricing on these software packages for those of us strapped for cash thanks eugene s ted richards ted isgtec com uunet ca isgtec ted isg technologies inc airport rd mississauga ont canada l v s eugene hsu aka heuge the university of southern california eugenehs scf usc edu electrical and biomedical engineering ho ho freaking ho yeah yeah who s santa s next victim kroq s the new detective as he goes undercover
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re another happy gateway owner pastor vfl paramax com jon pastor writes which they do in the vast majority of cases remember that it s only the people on the tails of the curve who are motivated to write the ones who love it and the ones who hate it you don t hear from the folks in the middle very often they have rough edges no doubt about it but they give good value per dollar and use almost all top quality components i am one of those middle of the road gw owners who is satisfied with my system i had my share of problems corrections phone conversations etc i m satisfied on what i got for my money stephen r husak what am i trying to do what am i trying to say i m not trying to tell you anything you didn t know when you woke up today depeche mode nothing music for the masses stephen r husak husak ux cso uiuc edu univerisity of illinois
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wanted chipset info i have a with an m motherboard the last byte memory manager which i downloaded for a trial reports the chipset is an addtech pcchip chipset and it is able to activate the ram behind segments a ffff which can then be used for umbs except for video bios i would like to write my own driver to activate the memory does anyone know where i can get programming information on this chip phil
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wanted opinions on mag s and nanao i monitor hi i m looking to buy a monitor soon and it seems that i can t decide what monitor i should buy i have a mag s this is a dpi version and it using a triniton tube and a nanao i in mind does anyone know of any specification or problems these monitor have actually any related opinions at buying a monitor will be welcomed thanks in advance ong mang iastate edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitor for xga in c ifpg hc news claremont edu dhosek jarthur claremont edu d hosek writes what is the recommended monitor for xga can i just use any old svga monitor or is something more needed mostly curious before i go blowing a monster wad of cash on a new system xga or xga for the original xga you just need something that can do x at hz interlaced just tell them compatible and they should get the idea for the xga get what you like i prefer multi syncs like the ibm the necs or even a fixed frequency monitor like my home viewsonic i like the multisyncs because it s easy to run them in modes like x x k colors noninterlaced or at higher modes like x x dick kaul my opinions only not official ibm positions etc ibm xga development they d make me wear a suit if i were to speak for ibm boca raton fl shhhh the maestro is decomposing kaul vnet ibm com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dx vs dx in article qd bcinnmep golem wcc govt nz hamilton golem wcc govt nz michael hamilton writes i have definitly seen a mother board with local bus slots which claimed to be able to support any cpu including the dx and dx can someone throw some more informed light on this issue michael hamilton some motherboards support vl bus and dx cpu there is an option bios i think where additional wait s can be added with regard to cpu vl bus transactions this slows the cpu down to a rate that gives the vl bus device s time to do their thing these particular wait s are applied when the cpu transacts with vl bus device s you want to enable these wait s only if you are using a dx with vl bus devices this is from reading my motherboard manual and these are my interpre tations your mileage may vary strictly speaking vl and mhz are not compatable and there is at least one fudge mechanism to physically allow it to work gary korenek korenek ferranti com network management technology incorporated formerly ferranti international controls corp sugar land texas
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	rd cfv and vote ack comp os os programmer porting setup multimedia bugs attention voters i had a problem with my mailbox on the first day of voting please check the vote acknowlegement ack at the end of this cfv if your name address is not there please send your vote again actually check even if you voted after the first day introduction this is the third and final call for votes cfv for the creation of four os newsgroups and the renaming of one a create comp os os programmer porting unmoderated b renaming of comp os os programmer to comp os os programmer misc unmoderated c comp os os setup unmoderated d comp os os multimedia unmoderated e comp os os bugs unmoderated this is the second attempt at creating comp os os programmer porting and comp os os setup and renaming comp os os programmer to comp os os programmer misc the first attempt failed in the summer of the voting deadline was august the voting rules state that another attempt for creating newsgroups can be started after a six month waiting period in this case it is march this is the first attempt at creating comp os os multimedia and comp os os bugs this document contains the background showing the need for these proposals the proposed charters for these proposals voting instructions a voting ballot some example ballots the voting rules the voting schedule the mass acknowledgement background the creation of two free bit compilers for os x gcc and emx gcc read comp os os programmer for details has spurred a continuing deluge of software ported from unix platforms such as emacs less awk grep sed xscheme ispell flex yacc and much more borland has released its c c compiler for os x allowing for easier porting of dos and windows software much of the pc hardware and drivers were written for dos and later windows as more people are discovering os x the number of people asking questions about os s compatibility with their hardware increases as does the questions on the availability of drivers for their hardware installation procedures etc multimedia is becoming popular os supports windows multimedia extensions using win os furthermore ibm is including direct multimedia support in os starting with version in addition to using win os any non trivial software will have bugs os is not exempt especially since ibm is constantly adding new features to os so far ibm has issued system patches and corrective service disks e g the service pak for free free from bbss and ftp sites or for free plus a small media charge for diskettes read comp os os misc for details proposed charters a create comp os os programmer porting unmoderated it will provide a forum for developers of ported software so as to coordinate efforts avoid duplication of effort and spur additional development the group will also cover topics such as porting from other platforms such as dos windows unix etc toolkits which aid in program portability including porting tools such as mirrors and so forth b rename comp os os programmer misc unmoderated to keep the structure of the os newsgroup heirarchy orthogonal comp os os programmer should be renamed to comp os os programmer misc comp os os programmer misc will still be the newsgroup for os programmers to discuss programming issues and technical aspects of os in an unmoderated setting c create comp os os setup unmoderated it will be devoted to os system setup topics including the availability of device drivers compatibility information installation procedures system requirements and overall performance optimization d create comp os os multimedia unmoderated it will provide a forum for discussion of multi media issues e create comp os os bugs unmoderated it will provide a forum for os system bug reports bug diagnosis and work arounds the availability of system patches and corrective service disks and so forth note that discussion of bugs in applications belong in other newsgroups and discussion of bugs in os betas belong in comp os os beta how to vote to cast your vote fill out the ballot below and e mail it to me many newsreaders will allow e mail to be sent by replying to this post be sure to send only the ballot and edit out the rest of this post type in your vote for each proposal if you favor the charter as proposed put a yes after its name if you oppose the charter as proposed put a no after its name to abstain leave a blank after its name type in your last name i e your family name a comma and your first name i e your personal name cut out the ballot please do not delete any lines of the ballot e mail your ballot to mlevis lonestar utsa edu before pm central time april ballot cut here cut here cut here a comp os os programmer porting b comp os os programmer misc c comp os os setup d comp os os multimedia e comp os os bugs f voter s last first name e mail ballot to mlevis lonestar utsa edu by april cut here cut here cut here example ballot a comp os os programmer porting yes b comp os os programmer misc yes c comp os os setup no d comp os os multimedia e comp os os bugs no f voter s last first name smith john in this example john smith favors comp os os programmer porting to be created and comp os os programmer to be renamed to comp os os programmer misc he also opposes the creation of comp os os setup and comp os os bugs he does not have a view on the creation of comp os os multimedia example ballot a comp os os programmer porting yes b comp os os programmer misc yes c comp os os setup yes d comp os os multimedia yes e comp os os bugs yes f voter s last first name doe jane in this example jane doe favors the creation or rename of all the proposals voting rules one vote per person if you vote more than once only the most recent vote will be counted votes must be mailed to me by the person voting proxy voting forwarding posting votes to a newsgroup etc will not be counted do not ask how the votes are going the status of the votings will be revealed only after the poll closes i will acknowledge votes by mass acknowledgement ack i will post the ack twice see schedule below if you need help for using your editor using e mail how voting works in general etc then ask an expert at your site also see the how to create a new newsgroup article which is posted to news answers on a regular basis if you need any clarifications on voting procedures for this cfv send me e mail at mlevis ringer cs utsa edu when the voting period is over see schedule below a proposal passes if both of the following formulas are true the number of yes votes exceeds the number of no votes by at least i e yes no or yes no the number of yes votes exceeds at least twice the number of no votes i e yes no or yes no no in other words a proposal passes if yes no max no where max returns the highest number given to it schedule the voting period started on march when the first cfv was posted by david lawrence the news announce newgroups moderator this third cfv is a repeat of the first cfv but it also has the mass acknowledgement ack of names and e mail addresses of those who have already voted re send your vote if it is not there if you have not voted yet vote now the voting period will end at pm central time on april votes received after that time will not count the voting results and tally will be posted shortly after that date mass acknowledgement here is the list of people who have already sent in their ballots as of am central time on april bdubbs cs tamu edu aiyagari sanjay ska crux cit cornell edu alcorn justin alcorn alpha ces cwru edu arien peter laaaa blekul bitnet frmop cnusc fr asselin andre assela rpi edu aurand tom tom longs lance colostate edu baechler cedric cbaechle iiic ethz ch bartlett warren bart pdn paradyne com bates john johnb up edu beadles j jeff neon rain com beal kenneth kbeal amber ssd csd harris com bedersdorfer jochen beders dfki uni sb de bell douglas dab scl cwru edu benningfield robert concert net aurs aurw a benningf biegel bryan biegel tigris stanford edu blackman ed ebb venus tamu edu bodnar john jbodnar ccwf cc utexas edu boisvert wesley wesb dermit isis org boneham kevin boneham suntan eng usf edu boresch stefan boresch tammy harvard edu boschma wilfried v si hhs nl botha david both dd mella ee up ac za bowe nathaniel woody vnet ibm com bowers neil neilb borris eece unm edu braun david roland roll choate edu bronner geoffrey geoffb coos dartmouth edu brors dieter db ix de brown bill brown chinchilla ir ucf edu cambria michael cambria smaug enet dec com carlson bill woc r poplar cs virginia edu champion evan evanc carbon isis org chandonia john chandoni husc harvard edu chen ted tedc cs ubc ca chua hak c ez po berkeley edu ciesielski boleslaw bolek viewlogic com clement bruce frey alfheim actrix gen nz clemente marc f mfclemente ucdavis edu cline ernest cline usceast cs scarolina edu cocking simon simonc monu cc monash edu au compton curtis compton plains nodak edu costello robert rcc ultb isc rit edu coulman randy coulman skdad usask ca cox anthony aecox waikato ac nz cox robert rcox qvack ee mcgill ca culliton tom culliton srg af mil daigle joe daigle apollo hp com decarlo john jdecarlo mitre org dippold ron rdippold qualcomm com donaldson ian icd ecr mu oz au drye stephen scdrye undergrad math uwaterloo ca duffy patrick duffy theory chem ubc ca dusitsin krid dusitsin ee umr edu erzberger martin erzberg ifi unizh ch feldtmann marten marten feki toppoint de feustel edward efeustel ida org filippini luigi luigi berlioz crs it fischer stefan fischer tammy harvard edu fleuren rik rik sci kun nl francis tim francis vnet ibm com francois menard menaf dmi usherb ca franks derek franks hercules cs uregina ca franzki wolfgang wfranzki hlrserv hlrz kfa juelich de friedrich jochen jofried fzi de friis torben tfriis imada ou dk g unther stefan stefan med informatik uni hildesheim de galarza edward lenbc cunyvm cuny edu gammon robert rgammon rgam sc ti com gartler hermann herm owlnet rice edu garzik jeff gtd a prism gatech edu gershman mark gershman bach udel edu giller david r rafetmad cheshire oxy edu gnassi john jgnassi hstbme mit edu goyal mohit goyal utdallas edu green anthony green roboco uucp grupenhoff mike kashmir wam umd edu guo youren yguo sparc a cs uiuc edu hacker jonathan hacker cco caltech edu haggerty michael mrhagger athena mit edu hargrave bj fattire vnet ibm com hartman shane shane spr com hartzman les hartzman kilroy jpl nasa gov hassa george hassag rpi edu hed nevo nyh wpi wpi edu heederik robbert heederik fwi uva nl hellerhoff torsten torsten hellerhoff ac maus de hendel bernd bhendel estec estec esa nl henriksen gerald rn rose com henry andrew a h henry gdr bath ac uk herbison b j herbison lassie ucx lkg dec com herron kenneth kherron ms uky edu hilmer andrew hilmera mist cs orst edu hoang long lhoang orion oac uci edu hodge bob hodge iccgcc cs hh ab com hodges matthew modester iastate edu hollebone bruce lermer theory chem ubc ca holsman ian iholsman cmutual com au hopkins john john uhs uhs uga edu hoppenbrouwers jeroen hoppie kub nl howard robert robert howard matd gatech edu huang ping pshuang athena mit edu jackson dave d jackson axion bt co uk jensen colin ljensen netcom com kassarjian steven kassarji spot colorado edu kiehl horst kiehl ibt ibt kfa juelich de kitchin bruce kitchin lf hp com kone bob bkone rflab ee ubc ca kovarski mark kovarski zooid guild org kretzer myke tanith csd csd uwm edu lacy stephen sl andrew cmu edu lai william lai seas gwu edu landy brian landy cco caltech edu lau frankie lau tammy harvard edu lau stephen lau ai sri com lawton gef glawton cs uah edu le glasse franck franck leglasse irisa fr lebius henning lebius utkux utk edu lee james jelee ucdavis edu lehtonen jari jarlehto utu fi leitner thomas tom finwds tu graz ac at lempriere mike mikel networx com lentin kevin kevinl bruce cs monash edu au leung johnnie k z rick cs ubc ca lim pean plim claircom com lin steven slin cisco com lindholm george lindholm ucs ubc ca liukkonen juha jliukkon cc helsinki fi logan stan logan lexmark com lu kevin kevinlu yoyo cc monash edu au martin johannes jmartin mogli zdv uni mainz de mashao daniel djm lems brown edu maturo larry larry titan tsd arlut utexas edu maxwell scott scott maxwell channel com mayer gunther h gmayer physik uni kl de maynard jay jmaynard nyx cs du edu mccarthy christopher mccarthy gollum ttd teradyne com mcgehrin matthew matthew dabeef des edu mcging john jmcging access digex com mcguire ed emcguire intellection com mcmillan andrew andrew mcmillan folly welly gen nz meyer jeff moriarty tc fluke com miller richard rick crick ssctr bcm tmc edu mittelstaedt olaf h p mittelst felix rz fh ulm de moorcroft marc smarry zooid guild org morrison john paul jmorriso ee ubc ca mosher david dmosher nyx cs du edu mouawad naji nmouawad math uwaterloo ca mullins don mullins magnum convex com nadler cliff cnadler vnet ibm com nareid helge helge nareid due unit no narinian vartan v narinian ic ac uk norton charles m cmn ftp com o neel bruce oneel aplcenmp apl jhu edu o rourke sean sorourke lonestar utsa edu oldham c r cro socrates ed asu edu olson eric ejo kaja gi alaska edu oussoren ronald roussor cs vu nl owens bill owens cookiemonster cc buffalo edu parks dwayne dcp engr uark edu parry tom parry yoyo cc monash edu au pebly bob pebly vnet ibm com perdue alicia arperd mik uky edu petro herbert hmpetro mosaic uncc edu pietilainen pekka ppi eero oulu fi poole david dpoole hydrogen oscs montana edu powell stephen stevep kralizec zeta org au prescod paul papresco undergrad math uwaterloo ca provensal jerome uunet uu net iac jerome quinn michael quinn phoenix princeton edu rao venkat rao cactus org reisert jim reisert mast enet dec com reynolds robert easyrob cs utexas edu robertson james robertson physc byu edu roelofs greg roe midway uchicago edu rosenvold johan kristian jkr ifi uio no ruppel markus m ruppel imperial ac uk ryan sean fsspr acad alaska edu salomon larry os man panix com schimke nathan schimken cs rpi edu schipper haijo haijo cs rug nl seymour jim qintar agora rain com shankar gess gess knex via mind org shaw jeremy jeremy plxsun plx com sierwald joern sierwald tu harburg dbp de sipples timothy sip midway uchicago edu skogstad oddbjorn odskog siri unit no smith donald djs ultb isc rit edu smith eliot esmith psych purdue edu sneath tim psyhtjs mips ccc nottingham ac uk sorensen tom gt a prism gatech edu sriram n swknasri nuscc nus sg steele alan steele nrcphy phy nrc ca steinkopf dirk dirk km zfe siemens de stirling ian t ian vnet ibm com strazdus stephen sstrazdu sedona intel com streeter carl cstreete nyx cs du edu sum eva eesum mik uky edu sum joey jpsum mik uky edu suttor jeff jsuttor netcom com swallow doug doug montage oau org sward david sward cmu edu thomas stephen swt therson affinity mn org thompson michael tommy msc cornell edu tiffany bernard lbt umich edu torremans engelbert etorrem hvlpa att att com tremain jim jim biology watstar uwaterloo ca tsen maoee tsen student tc umn edu van der lek petja p vanderlek research ptt nl van iwaarden ronald rvaniwaa copper denver colorado edu van woerkom marc e e marc van woerkom ac maus de veeraraghavan venkatesh venky owlnet rice edu veldhuyzen eric v si hhs nl vigor kevin kevin wicat com villumsen ole ovillumsen daimi aau dk wald david wald theory lcs mit edu wallace jack grey vnet ibm com wantosch rainer rainer sasowa han de watson brett watson s elec uq oz au weber fahr christoph weber rhrk uni kl de weeks larry dev ecn purdue edu werner john werner soe berkeley edu west mike west esd dl nec com weyrich orville uunet uu net weyrich orville white andrew apwhite csugrad cs vt edu wiersema brian brianw umd umd edu wimmer carsten carsten wimmer train fido de wittenauer allen allen wittenauer crispy carb il us woodbury gregory ggw wolves durham nc us worthington stephen stephen actrix gen nz wright gregory gregory bcstec ca boeing com wyble richard transfer stratus com schunix rwyble young david m dyoung netcom com zabbal christian kris binkley cs mcgill ca zawodny jeremy jzawodn andy bgsu edu zou nan nan matt ksu ksu edu os mike levis unofficial os spokesmodel s os mlevis lonestar utsa edu votes os mlevis ringer cs utsa edu clarifications
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ncr external floppy drive hi i just inherited an ncr external floppy this thing has every port known to man on the back the question is does anyone know how to connect this thing to a pc what hardware is needed software tia alex p s please respond directly i am not on this alias
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help with fixed frequency khz vga monitor i recently bought a monichrome vga monitor for that will do x non interlaced which seems like a good deal however it is a fixed scan rate monitor and only handles khz horizontal i think with my trident card it works only in graphics modes e and not much use since just about any application will set the mode to something else especially if it wants to do text i suppose anyway is there any way that i can use this as a general purpose vga display with a meg trident c card if not can i do so with some sort of different vga card peter desnoyers
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	request info on a mystery pc card while rummaging through a box of old pc parts i found a half size board that looks like a comm port board it was made by forte data systems and has a copyright date of on it the board provides a male pin connector and has jumpers of pins each two labelled a b c i plugged it into my pc and ran advanced diagnostics several times changing the jumper positions each time but the system did not recognise a comm port does anyone have a clue as to what this board might be or how to configure it i could use another comm port if it s free bryan
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	joystick suggestions i m planning on buying a joystick first time since i sold my amiga five years ago for a pc i have no idea what kind of stick i should buy many people have recommended variety of gravis es models are they any good the best willy ville v walveranta tel fax linda ave apt from finland oakland ca faxes automatically recognized usa email wil shell portal com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	info wanted on tseng labs et vlb hi fellow netters does anybody have any info on tseng labs et vlb card price speed compatibility with existing and up comming softwares performance compared to others cards is it an s based card thank you
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi in article qk kvinnndk dns nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb writes point of view why does scsi have an advantage when it comes to multi tasking data is data and it could be anywhere on the drive can scsi find it faster can it get it off the drive and into the computer faster does it have a better cache system i thought scsi was good at managing a data bus when multiple devices are attached if we are only talking about a single drive explain why scsi is inherently faster at managing data from a hard drive ide integrated device electronics currently the most common standard and is mainly used for medium sized drives can have more than one hard drive asynchronous transfer mb s max why don t you start with the spec sheet of the isa bus first you can quote scsi specs till you re blue in the face but if they exceed the isa bus capability then what s the point who says ide is limited to megs sec what about vlb ide does anyone know how they perform so at its lowest setting scsi interface in asynchronous scsi mode averages the through put maximum of ide in asynchronous mode in full scsi mode it blows poor ide out the window down the street and into the garbage can as implimented on what system the problem becomes can the drive mechanisim keep up with those through put rates and that is where the bottleneck and cost of scsi comes from not the interface itself but more and more from drive mechanisims to use the scsi through put given the original question scsi used only as a single hard drive controller is it then necessary to get a scsi drive that will do at least maybe megs sec for the scsi choice to make any sence what does a meg megs sec scsi drive cost the cost of scsi interface is a self fulliling prophisy few people buy scsi because it is so expencive for the pc which in turn convices makes that mass producing scsi which would reduce its cost is unwarented and so scsi is expencive that is the effect of the rule of scale the more items sold the less each item has to bare the brunt the cost of manufacture and so the less each item has to cost the original cga cart back in was i think the original ega card or pga was scsi has stood relatively alone in not coming down in price mainly because we re talking about pc s and not sun s or sparc or sgi or name your favorite unix workstation that is after millions of pc buying decisions over the years scsi has had plenty of time to come down in price i won t argue that the scsi standard makes for a good well implimented data highway but i still want to know why it intrinsically better than ide on an isa bus when it comes to multi tasking os s when managing data from a single scsi hard drive
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help ka q ethernet dear all i am trying to get my standard connection going with ka q pa gri and a gvc nic ethernet card i know that my router and modem is working because i am able to ping finger and even telnetd with it however after a time it crashes randomly help would be greatly appreciated i suspect that there is a hardware conflict in the pc i am running with a sx mb ram the ethernet card is configured for irq ports x x f thanks in advance i know that it s not much to go on but i don t even know what the questions to ask are sorry please send mail elliott
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	date is stuck anybody seen the date get stuck i m running ms dos with a menu system alive all the time the machine is left running all the time suddenly the date no longer rolls over the time is reasonably accurate allways but we have to change the date by hand every morning this involves exiting the menu system to get to dos anyone have the slightest idea why this should be even a clue as to whether the hardware battery cmos or dos is broken kevin o gorman kevin kosman uucp kevin kosman uucp nrc com voice vital computer systems beachcomber oxnard ca non disclaimer my boss is me and he stands behind everything i say
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	s c w mb x x k colors orchid pipe dream hi i have an orchid fahrenheit vlb with mb of dram it is an s c based card i had a problem for a while after installing my second meg of dram for the video and thanks to orchid i got a fix from their tech support it was jumper settings not given in the ordinary manual i assume it would come with memory ordered from them so i guess i should be glad they didn t just say buy the memory from us or something like that the one thing that i was puzzled by was why there was not a x x k color mode on the thing either in full screen or enlarged desktop mode my ati ultra plus can handle that given mb of memory all the mb buys you on the fahrenheit is x x just one more mode geez had i known i wouldn t have bothered i asked them why and all i got was your point is well taken but orchid s software developers are busy with other projects so to get to the point finally are there any s c drivers out there that can handle high res hicolor modes i d love to get another card but perhaps it will have to wait until the next generation of cards comes out since this card came bundled with my system and it s not so easy to exchange these things unless they re broken if you want these modes steer away from orchids s c cards ie vlb or va vlb at least until their developers are less busy if the magazines are to believed i ve only seen one s c product thus far which can handle x x k color genoa although evenn that might be a misprint please if there are generic or semi generic drivers out there let me know where i can get them x x k is ok but i coulda gotten that with my ati vga wonder xl thanks donyee athena mit edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re what is at bus clk speed in article uupcb hal k ann arbor mi us robert desonia hal k ann arbor mi us robert desonia writes s there is one param in the bios setup that says at bus clk i have clock which is beyond isa specs but may be ok if all of the cards can run that fast i would set it to in fact i did and set it back if anything acts weird e g you get unexplainable floppy drive errors your modem locks up you have video problems etc if you overdrive the at bus then that should be the first thing to check if you get an error on your system it is pretty safe to overdrive your at bus as long as your isa cards still work flawlessly i suggest backing up your hd before playing with it though on my dx really not dx my at bus is set to clk at mhz i have no problems soundblaster pro zoom fxm rll controller etc all work fine if i set it to mhz i simply don t get past the post routines i doubt you could actually damage much by playing with it allen
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re soundblaster irq and port settings my solution was to switch the interrupt to irq which is unreserved in contemporary computers using irq for the drives went out with the xt architechture not completly true for at class and later machines irq is reserved for lpt since it s rare to have a second parallel port in a pc it s usually a good safe choice if you need an interrupt on the other hand we just ran into a problem with that here at work on a gateway computer dx v it has a modem on com a mouse on com and the other serial port was set to com which normally uses the same interrupt as com we had a real fight with a board when trying to use irq and discoverd the problem was that gateway had set it up such that com used irq as soon as we disabled com our problems went away grumble after several days of trying to figure out why the interrupt didn t work mike sprague wbst xerox com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ast hot shot i recently acquired an ast hot shot accellerator board for an sans documentation does anyone know what the dip switches on the back of the card do did it come with software any help or information about the card would be greatly appreciated thanks rob robert m bultman speed scientific school university of louisville internet rmbult starbase spd louisville edu robert m bultman speed scientific school university of louisville internet rmbult starbase spd louisville edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	diamond speedstar hicolor card i have a dx isa system with meg i am using a diamond speedstar hicolor video card with meg vram and a standard ctx in svga monitor when i am running windows and i have overlapping windows say an application overlapping the program manager window and i close the active application window erasure is very slow the part of the window that is not overlapping is erased first very slowly this also happens when i iconify an application the hicolor card is advertised as a faster than standard video card but it does not have an accelerator chip on it i am running at x x k is this slow speed simply to be expected without an accelerator chip or is there something else that is bottlenecking the system that i am unaware of thanks you can mail to me directly if you wish at genek cs ucsb edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	conner mb problem hi recently when i run the norton disk surface test i realize a slow down in harddisk accessing at begining of the test the harddisk will be checked at the speed that usually is as the surface test scaned half way through my harddisk a tremendous slow down occured the expected time for operation will jump from to minutes i try to use some of the harddisk tools to check if there is any physical damage to my harddisk and report always turn out to be none the surface test only slow down for a certain section of the disk and turn back to the original speed after it gets over the section i am wondering whether it is a harddisk problem or some other problems anyway help or comment will be appriciate shane cheney wang
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need phone number for western digital esdi problem i have wd wa esdi controller with rom bios v it has been working fine until i recently upgraded motherboard to mhz now my maxter drive goes crazy making lots of seeking sound even when the drive is not accessed of course with numourous hard disk controller errors these symptoms disappear when i switch to non turbo mode mhz i suspect some timing dependent rom bios routines there s a newer version x could anybody help me on this by the way my new mother board has ami bios k cache mhz bus and works fine with my old mfm drives i had to dig them up also i will appreciate it very much if somebody send me the phone numbers tech support bbs for western digital many thanks in advance jay physics uw seattle wa choe phys washington edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cache or micronics eisa vlb motherboard this might be a silly question but i have to ask it anyway i am in the process of purchasing an eisa vl bus dx computer and i found two places that sell machines that have what i want and have the same price the first is ares and they use a cache motherboard that s the brand of the motherboard with opti chip set the other is micron formerly edge technology and they use the micronics eisa vlb motherboard i said that this might be a silly question since i believe that micronics is a very well known motherboard manufacturer while i never heard of cache i am however leaning towards the ares machine because my impression is that they are known for building good solid machines and they have good tech support hr days wk and a better warrantee years micron on the other hand seems to have recently aquired edge technologies and i m not sure how much i should trust the company i would really appreciate any input on this is the micron machine the clear choice does anyone know anything positive or negative about either company has anyone ever heard of cache motherboards should i go with micron just because it has the micronics motherboard etc thanks very much in advance for any information mohammad al ansari
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	int h for joysticks is slow i m using int h to read my joystick and it is hideously slow something like of my cpu time is being spent reading the joystick and this is in a program that does nothing but printf and joyread the problem is that a lot of programs trap int h like smartdrv and so it is a slow as hell interface can i read the joystick port in a reasonably safe fashion via polling and that isn t platform or clockspeed specific thanks brianzex
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re colorado jumbo for gateway pd world std com peter f davis writes i ve just installed a new colorado jumbo tape backup unit from gateway and i have a couple of complaints with it i don t know how common or serious these problems may be i would appreciate some feedback from others who have used this system btw this is on a dx v tower system i have a similar configuration colorado mb on dx tower the problems are o firstly gateway shipped me only mb tapes even though the drive is a mb unit when i called to complain they only said that s all we carry and with compression you can fit mb on one tape maybe so but then why did i pay extra for the large capacity tape drive you got suckered in the same way i did silly me believing that the logo on the front meant actual carrying capacity the people who do this sort of thing for a living call it marketing lawyers who prosecute it call it fraud perhaps we can have a bunch of other duped buyers march on their corporate headquarters o i have about mb of data on my c drive i choose the space optimizing compression scheme and started a full backup the software estimated it would take about minutes it took hours does this sound about right this is a bit long my system takes about minutes to do the same thing usually hours particularly if the tape is grinding away the whole time means that your block size for the write is too small is there any way to change the block size or write buffer size so it s bigger o during the backup about a dozen files came up with access denied errors most of these were in c windows system comm drv keyboard drv shell dll etc but also c windows progman exe and a couple of files in the c tape directory anyone else had this happen this is because the files are opened by dos the files in the tape directory are likely the executable file or the configuration file for the tape system i would recommend running the backup from dos so it will make a complete backup of the tape directory thanks for any and all feedback on this system i d also appreciate hearing of good sources for blank tape cartridges preferably mb size the mb cartridges won t do you any good since the drive won t write mb of physical data on the tape thanks pd brent williams brentw netcom com san jose california
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help phar lap spectre spectre nmt edu wrote could some one tell me what phar lap err the chip is currently executing in virtual mode under the control of another program you must turn off this other program in order to use dos extender to run in protected mode means this shows up on a compuadd express whenever a program such as matlab or maple is run it has been tried under dr dos msdos and dos there is nothing nada in memory nothing appears on a virus check anybody spectre jupiter nmt edu spectre cyborg nmt edu this world and everything in it illusions richard every bit of it illusions do you understand that donald shimoda i used to get this problem with autocad when using the noems switch with emm exe in dos if you allocate some ram to emm the problem should go away tmc
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help with simms in article c fu u pxx austin ibm com guyd austin ibm com guy dawson writes in article lhdsy lahabra chevron com jjctc lhdsy lahabra chevron com james c tsiao writes in article apr fct unl pt fcm diana fct unl pt fernando correia martins mei writes spectre spectre nmt edu wrote when i look at a magazine ad that says deleted what exactly do the numbers mean i e which is the mb ns the numbers and refers to nanoseconds could someone explain exactly what this numbers means time spent bettwen processor s request and answer retrieved in case of reading it means the time required for the memory to refresh i e a x needs ns before it is ready to be read again nope it s the time taken to read data from memory it s the read time the memory will still have to be refreshed the whole phase is called a cycle the cycle time being about twice the access time i m sorry if i m misunderstanding your post but dram does not have to be refreshed on each access cycle so cycle time does not have to be twice the access time because of refresh phase the access time usually means the delay time from falling edge of raw address strobe ras to data bus driven dram access cycle timing chart can be roughly shown as following some signals are intentionally omitted addr ra ca ra ca ra raw address ca column address ras high low floating cas driven either h or l data valid valid cycle time access time or ras access time yes the cycle time is more than twice as the access time but not because of the refresh phase the refresh can be done either as a trailing phase of normal access cycle or as an individual cycle other stuff deleted ken nakata i apologize if there are incorrect rude and or impolite expressions in this mail or post they are not intended please consider that english is a second language for me and i don t have full understanding of certain words or each nuance of a phrase thank you ken nakata cis student njit
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re com ports modem mouse conflict really in article apr wnbbs nbg sub org comp sys ibm pc hardware alt msdos programmer comp sys ibm pc misc uw pc general uw pc ibm misc forsale computers d comp dcom modems oli wnbbs nbg sub org oliver duesel writes hi there yuri windy berkeley edu yuri yulaev writes i have s p g i o card in my pc when i plug in wang modem at com it works if i change it to com it doesn t program chkport gives diagnostics like possible com irq conflict at com with mouse driver in memory since your io card only has one serial port this should default to com under ms dos you can t share irq s so you ll have to set either your modem or your mouse to com using different adresses and irq s when you set two devices onto the same irq like com and com or and the latter one will always win i e if you have your mouse on com and start using your modem on com your modem should work but your mouse will stop doing so until reboot it should be no problem setting your modem to com you didn t write anything about other peripherals i hope it helped a bit by t e oli hi i m kind of new at the pc stuff my machine has serial ports com and and share same irqs you mean i can t plug a mouse into com and a modem into com and expect both to work if answer is no should i change irq s for com ports to be different and does it really matter which irq i set the ports too phil phil hunt wherever you go there you are howtek inc internet phil howtek mv com uucp decvax harvard mv howtek phil
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors in article apr uxmail ust hk cs ngfo uxmail ust hk forrest normandy writes i want to buy a monitor any comment on nanno t i nec fg sii thanks a lot forrest normandy the hong kong university of internet cs ngfo stu ust hk science and technology e mail cs ngfo uxmail ust hk department of computer science phone rm paging a c rm ug hall hkust hong kong windows sources magazine reviewed a number of monitors recently and they too said that the nanao t i was the best monitor to get if you had the money but they also said that the mitsubishi diamond pro is the next best choice and that it has superb picture quality this monitor can be had for around has anyone actually seen any of these i am also thinking of buying a monitor and was going to consider the mitsubishi if i remember correctly i think its viewing area is measured diagonally thanks mohammad al ansari alansari cs indiana edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes what does a meg megs sec scsi drive cost since the quadra is the only mac able to deal with mb s and hard drives start at mb i have no idea for the mac i have the following these are all external mb mb mb mb mb mb mb mb mb mb mb mb mb mb etc so scsi scsi for the mac goes down in price mb as hard drive size goes up and i assume the same for the pc world i won t argue that the scsi standard makes for a good well implimented data highway but i still want to know why it intrinsically better than ide on an isa bus when it comes to multi tasking os s when managing data from a single scsi hard drive well scsi is also a floppy drive interface in the mac since scsi is the inteface for any non card non modem not keyboard device the id is used for the floppy drive called cpu in all identifiers this allows cross drive interfacing as fast as the os program cpu scsi and drive can handle it this shows up best in the quatra line in the ibm that uses scsi for the floppy drive this should happen as well also scsi is not just drives but printers scanners expandsion cards this showed up for the plus as the nubus cage cd rom etc ide seems to be mainly hard drives as for specs nobody has given me any and i can t find any besides the advertizments call ide the at interface make of that what you will scsi is a jack of all trades and ide is a master of one this alone puts scsi above ide scsi blows ide out of the water remember scsi was used in high priced machines until about months ago when the mac prices came down to earth so the rule of scale still played and scsi remained high cost cheap seems to mean chezzy in the high end computer world at times and this more than anything else proably kept scsi off into the statosphere price wise scsi came from the high end computer world with multitasking os were the standard for the most part of all the interface next could have used it choose scsi in bit and bit mode scsi is a multi tasking os desined interface while ide and bit scsi are braindead run one program interfaces at least the way mac use bit scsi ugh
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi in pc magazine april although scsi is twice as fasst as esdi faster than ide and support up to devices its acceptance has long been stalled by incompatability problems and installation headaches note what it does not site as a factor price int eh same article the pc would will get plug and play scsi from the article it seems you get plug and play scsi only since scsi in full implimentation has ten not devices scsi intergration is sited as another part of the microsoft plug and play program
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re esdi with ide in article qegfd dqi wsinis info win tue nl monty wsinis info win tue nl guido leenders writes hi is it possible to use an esdi controller with hdd together with an ide harddisk controller in one isa system i ve read stuff about secondary controllers does this trick work thanx in advance guido monty win tue nl i have the same question as guido it is possible to use the esdi drive as a master and the ide drive as the slave at the moment i have been using the esdi drive and recently i bought a ide drive to use as the nd drive the person in the computer shop told me that it is not possible to run disk controller cards together on the same motherboard esdi and ide but i think there might be some way of making them work can anybody enlighten me on this and it is possible to run a esdi hdd using a ide controller or vice versa can anybody please help me out on this your help will be very much appreciated g chow els r fawlty eng monash edu au els r mdw cc monash edu au gtchow yoyo cc monash edu au
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	floppy drive problem help hi i have a problem with my floppy drives in an effort to make my drive normally b my a drive i switched the order of connections on the cable from the serial card floppy ide controller i booted up changed the cmos settings to reflect the a drive as the and the b drive as the the drive lights didn t come on and there was a failure trying to read from those drives i switched the cables back to their original positions and then booted up and restored the original cmos settings the lights for the floppies came on during this process and they stay on for as long as the computer is on i see that when there is a disk in a the drive is spinning yet there seems to be no disk access msd exe and norton si detect both drives but when i try to get detailed information about a or b norton si tells me that there is no disk in the drive can anyone offer any suggestions i m in desperate need of help thank you for your time eric balog balog eniac seas upenn edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help with bit mode for ati i finally got the vesa driver for my ati graphics ultra plus m however when i tried to use this to view under bit mode i get lines on the picture with bit or below the picture is fine can someone tell me what was wrong is it the card or is it the software thanks user s name edward wong internet wong ws webo dg com telephone
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi in article qlbrlinn rk dns nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb says in pc magazine april although scsi is twice as fasst as esdi faster than ide and support up to devices its acceptance has long been stalled by incompatability problems and installation headaches i love it when magazine writers make stupid statements like that re performance where do they get those numbers i ll list the actual performance ranges which should convince anyone that such a statement is absurd scsi i ranges from mb s scsi ii ranges from mb s ide ranges from mb s esdi is always mb s although there are some non standard versions
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	toshiba b cd rom any problems i m thinking about getting a toshiba cd rom and hooking it up through the scsi port on a media vision pro audio spectrum sound board does anybody have this configuration out there if so does it work for anybody in general who has the toshiba cd rom drive have you had any hadware problems door not opening scratched disks door not closing getting stuck or not closing all the way cd holder jamming and any other cd related problems thanks in advance mark
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	problem with adaptec b scsi and jumbo tape drive hi i ve just replaced my existing dtc scsi controller with an adaptec b and am now having trouble restoring from a jumbo tape drive i had no trouble installing the adaptec and dos recognises both the scsi drive and an existing ide drive however when i went to restore the backups from the jumbo tape i found that it was extremely slow estimated time mins actual time min i have no trouble restoring from the same tape to the ide drive i seem to remember reading that some settings had to be changed to enable the jumbo drive and the adaptec to work together but i can t find any mention of it in the manuals my system config is i dx mb adaptec b running mb fujitsu scsi ide controller running mb ide jumbo running off floppy controller on ide any help would be appreciated thanks ron ronaldm extro ucc su oz au ron mastus ronaldm extro ucc su oz au mariposa rd phone work bilgola plateau home australia ron mastus ronaldm extro ucc su oz au mariposa rd phone work bilgola plateau
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re joystick suggestions it depends on what you d like your joystick for i ve seen gravis joysticks at radio shack they seemed flimsy and didn t fit well in my hand i have heard on c s i p games that they don t last well less than a year on flightsims one redeeming feature does seem to be the ability to adjust the tension of the stick i recently purchased a ch flightstick there aren t any suction cups and no tension adjusters but otherwise it seems to be an excellent joystick i m currently using it for the wing commander series and red baron works quite well the large base does not require a steadying hand and so leaves it free the buttons provide good tactile response you can hear and feel them well there are other models made by ch that can go up or down in features for price comparison gravis analogue joysticks sell for here compared to the i paid for a ch flightstick i think the extra is worth it just in feel best thing to do is to ask a salesperson to let you try them out or at least feel it before you buy just another note analogue joysticks are best for flightsims or something that needs sensitive touch if you re only playing games such as castle wolfenstein or some other game that only uses digital input ie only up down left etc instead of how much right you might want to look into a gravis gamepad they look like a nintendo control pad but i don t know much beyond that will christie aatchoo philosophy the principles and university of manitoba uh oh science of thought and reality winnipeg mb canada i m leaking philosopher someone who thinks chrstie ccu umanitoba ca brain lubricant they re useful to society
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors in article c geh n d utdallas edu goyal utdallas edu mohit k goyal writes oh yeah i just read in another newsgroup that the t i uses a high quality trinitron tube than is in most monitors the sony s for example and this is where the extra cost comes from it is also where the high bandwidth comes from and the fantastic image and the large image size etc etc it s also where the two annoying lines across the screen one a third down the other two thirds down come from tony catone compstat wharton upenn edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re buslogic b questions goyal utdallas edu mohit k goyal writes can anyone tell me if this card works with the march os beta i believe so since the buslogic cards have proven to be very reliable in os where do i get os drivers endusers not oem manufactures will get all the software package with the card which includes drivers for novell os unix xenix and so forth does this card work with the toshiba b cdrom in dos or os definitely here is my setup quantam scsi hd toshiba b cdrom i m considering the b because i have been told buslogic s support is better than adaptecs and that the b performs better than the c anyways i just want to know if the b will work in os dos with my above peripheals thank you extremely much for any and all replies
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re problem with adaptec b scsi and jumbo tape drive ron mastus ronaldm extro ucc su oz au wrote i ve just replaced my existing dtc scsi controller with an adaptec b and am now having trouble restoring from a jumbo tape drive here s a document that i wrote some time back it s slightly out of date now that dos has been released but much of it is still useful darryl okahata internet darrylo sr hp com disclaimer this message is the author s personal opinion and does not constitute the support opinion or policy of hewlett packard or of the little green men that have been following him all day id adaptec txt darrylo rel darrylo hints and tips for the adaptec scsi adapter this document contains hints and tips for getting the adaptec scsi adapter to work with various hardware and software packages they are based upon my experiences with an adaptec a controller and will hopefully help others however note that i cannot guarantee that the following will really help you it works for me and the information in this document could possibly cause you to lose some or all of your files on your hard disk important back up the entire contents of your hard disk before trying anything based upon information in this document copyright by darryl okahata this document may be freely copied for personal use only and may not be reprinted in a for profit publication without the consent of the author please note that i have no connection with adaptec other than as a customer topics covered in this document windows enhanced mode floppy controller based tape backup devices sound cards miscellaneous info please note that parts of this document contain technical and sometimes terse descriptions of problems for reference adaptec technical support adaptec bbs please send comments corrections etc via email to me compuserve internet darrylo sr hp com windows enhanced mode the windows install program should automatically configure dos and windows for use with the adaptec however just in case something went wrong i m going to describe some of the changes needed to get windows working with the also you may have noticed that installing windows makes your pc run much slower even when you re not running windows methods of speeding it up are discussed in the section called windows runs slowly msdos configuration the windows install program adds the smartdrive disk cache to your config sys and autoexec bat files if you follow the instructions you ll notice that you ll need to use double buffering with smartdrive this is the default setup you ll also notice that your system runs much much slower in both windows and msdos see the section called windows runs slowly for some ways of speeding your system up windows configuration to get the adaptec to work with windows make sure that the enh section of the system ini file contains the entry virtualhdirq off i believe that the windows install program automatically adds this entry to system ini but i m not sure if this doesn t work for you you might want to try adding some more lines virtualhdirq off systemrombreakpoint false emmexclude a cfff you probably don t need the above lines though the systemrombreakpoint entry is used to enable support for memory managers like qemm max only needed if you use such programs windows runs slowly once you do get windows running with the chances are that your system is running much slower than before if it s not it s probably because you happen to be using aspi dos sys version in your config sys file congratulations this appears to be a winning solution you are very lucky whether your luck will hold out remains to be seen if your system is running much slower than before this is almost definitely caused by smartdrive with double buffering according to the windows documentation and the microsoft technical note q smartdrive double buffering required with aspi dos sys you must use smartdrive with double buffering enabled while this works it really slows down your pc i once estimated that this slowed my pc down by a factor of five as i consider this unacceptable i looked for other solutions unfortunately you cannot just disable double buffering if you do windows in enhanced mode will not work and you might even destroy the contents of your hard disk by trying to run windows what you can do is one of the following use other drivers that provide double buffering it is my opinion that the unbelievable slowness in smartdrive is caused either by horribly inefficient double buffering or by a bug in smartdrive use a driver that provides vds services vds stands for virtual dma services this is a standard which is supported by windows that allows bus mastering disk controllers like the to work with windows after trashing my hard disk countless times i found the following solutions none of which require using smartdrive note however that i am now getting occasional parity errors which are probably not caused by these solutions but might be see below while the following does not require smartdrive using some kind of disk cache utility is strongly recommended as this makes windows run much much faster if you do not have the aspi dos sys driver or you do not need aspi functions for controlling a cdrom tape drive more than two physical hard disks etc you can add the scsiha sys driver to your config sys file e g driver c scsiha sys v windows needs the v option this driver must be loaded into low memory it cannot be loaded into high memory and it occupies about k as of november the scsiha sys driver could be obtained from the adaptec bbs at hopefully it s still there if you need aspi functions and have the aspi dos sys driver version or a you can use both the aspi dos sys and scsiha sys drivers in your config sys file e g driver c aspi dos sys driver c scsiha sys v amazingly enough the scsiha sys driver can also be loaded high assuming you have dos i would have thought that this would crash my system but it doesn t i asked adaptec s technical support about this and they said that loading scsiha sys high should be fine as long as aspi dos sys is loaded low on my system not using scsiha sys with aspi dos a would occasionally cause windows to crash upon restarting or exiting windows with the additional result of a corrupted disk some of my c windows grp files would be corrupted for me these crashes usually occurred while making a different program from progman exe the default windows shell and vice versa this is the reason scsiha sys may be necessary i have absolutely no idea if scsiha sys is necessary with versions of aspi dos earlier than note that many people can use aspi dos or a without scsiha sys they do not seem to have any problems at all i consider these people lucky others like me have had all sorts of problems in my opinion the best but not necessarily the easiest solution is to upgrade to aspi dos the scsiha sys driver is no longer needed unfortunately while you could get previous aspi dos upgrades from the adaptec bbs the aspi dos driver is not available from the adaptec bbs as far as i know there are only three ways to get a copy you can buy the new as of november adaptec ez scsi driver kit which supposedly includes aspi dos as well as other drivers such as cdrom drivers i believe the list price is around if you already have a copy of an older version of aspi dos you can supposedly contact adaptec to upgrade it to ez scsi for around a copy of aspi dos is included in central point pc tools for msdos note that the documentation and driver are stored in different directories note further that only aspi dos is included the cdrom drivers and drivers to support more than two hard disks are not included this is where i obtained my copy of aspi dos note however that i am now getting occasional parity errors with windows in all probability defective hardware in my pc is causing this as i upgraded my motherboard just after i found the above solutions however because these parity errors occur only during disk accesses there is a very small but definite possibility that the parity errors are driver related for example changing the bus on off timing for certain disk transfers might cause this i ve run various memory tests for hours at a time and these tests have found no problems this problem is probably caused by memory with marginal timing requirements which cause parity errors during disk transfers this is why the memory tests didn t find any problems the problems show up only under disk i o however i m mentioning this just in case it isn t a hardware problem floppy controller based tape backup devices there are two possible problems with using the adaptec with a floppy controller based tape backup device such as the colorado memory systems jumbo tape backups restores can take a very long time the tape drive constantly starts stops starts stops etc tape operations may be erratic or encounter too many tape errors this problem might be caused by defective hardware on my however i ve heard of other people having similar problems and so i m mentioning this just in case it is not a hardware problem on my tape backups restores take a long time if you have a floppy controller based tape backup device you may have to adjust the adaptec bus on off timing for best results when using the tape drive normally while doing a tape backup or restore the tape drive motor should be continuously running with only an occasional pause however the default bus timing on the adaptec may cause the tape drive motor to start and stop start and stop every few seconds this causes needless wear to the tape and tape drive however note that a dirty tape head or a defective tape drive can also cause this make sure your tape heads are clean this also causes the tape backup or restore to take much much longer than necessary the problem here is that these tape backups use the floppy dma to transfer data in memory to from the tape drive and the adaptec uses dma to transfer data in memory to from the hard disk the floppy dma needs to feed data to the tape drive at a certain rate if the tape drive is not fed data quickly enough by the floppy dma the tape drive stops rewinds a bit and restarts once enough data is eventually fed to it the default bus timing on the adaptec which is really dma timing is too large for example when a backup is done data has to be transferred from a hard disk to memory and then from memory to the tape because the default timing on the adaptec hogs the memory too much too much time is spent transferring data from a hard disk to memory not enough time is spent transferring data from memory to the tape drive as a result the tape drive constantly starts and stops because data is not fed to it quickly enough the solution is to change the adaptec s bus on off timing the default factory setting is microseconds on and microseconds off the bus on timing needs to be lowered to microseconds this can be done in one of two ways if you have aspi dos you can use the n option for example i use a bus on timing of microseconds which means that i use the following line in my config sys file device c aspi dos sys n note that there is no space between the n and the if you don t have aspi dos your only recourse is to try to find a program called setscsi exe which is very difficult to find the reason is that adaptec for reasons of their own does not seem to want this widely distributed i once asked someone who worked for adaptec and they asked me to not upload it anywhere if you have anonymous ftp access to the internet you could try using archie to hunt down a copy i believe that there are a couple of sites that have it if you do find a copy you run it like so setscsi n this adjusts the bus on timing to microseconds running setscsi exe without any arguments resets the bus timing back to the factory defaults note that it seems that you cannot use setscsi exe if you use aspi dos setscsi exe crashed my system if aspi dos was loaded i could use setscsi exe with scsiha sys however do not lower the bus on timing below microseconds or increase it above microseconds if you lower it too low the hard disk throughput will suddenly drop your system will feel slower for me microseconds works fine this value may work fine for you or you may have to adjust it downwards a little once you ve lowered the bus on timing tape backups and restores should run faster also do not experiment with the bus on off times with the other options that i have intentionally not described unless you know what you are doing bad combinations can cause parity errors and worse by starving memory refresh a program called bustifix exe exists on the adaptec bbs unless this has been upgraded since i last checked which has been a while this is a self extracting archive containing a batch file and a couple of other files this batch file was supposed to allow one to set the bus on off times for the and others however when i tried running this program with my a my system crashed at the time i was running scsiha sys and i didn t check to see if there was a conflict with it maybe this old program works only with the b although the docs say that it works with the a erratic tape operations or too many tape errors this problem may or may not exist although it existed on my system a hardware problem just on my particular could cause it however i ve heard of other people having similar problems and so i m mentioning this just in case it isn t a hardware problem just on my symptoms of this problem which persists even after cleaning the tape head backing up to tape encounters unusable sector detected errors resulting in an aborted tape backup tape backup works but the tape compare fails the tape drive starts stops starts stops etc much too often unlike the above mentioned problem tape backups restores take a long time where the tape drive starts and stops every few seconds this kind of starting stopping occurs every few seconds or so fastback plus does not find see any tape backup devices other programs like central point backup and the cms jumbo software assuming that you have a cms jumbo tape drive can find see the tape drive but fastback plus cannot too many tape read errors although i do not know what is causing this problem i discovered that using a different floppy controller solves it a few months ago i upgraded my motherboard which contained an integrated floppy controller as i already had a floppy controller on the i initially disabled the motherboard floppy controller after a while i decided to try disabling the floppy controller and using the one on the motherboard when i did this the tape drive a cms jumbo reliability increased dramatically and fastback plus was suddenly able to find and use the tape drive i don t know if this was caused by a hardware problem on my on the one hand the floppy drives worked great when they were attached to the which seems to say that there was nothing wrong with the on the other hand the tape drive didn t work well attached to the floppy controller but it did work when attached to a different controller this could be an indication of a hardware problem on my i did change floppy drive cables and so it is conceivable that the problem was in the cables i don t know what the cause really is however if you re having similar problems you might want to consider trying a new floppy controller sound cards many popular sound cards can play or record digitized sound and this is typically done using dma like the tape drive dma the adaptec s dma can conflict with the sound card dma unlike that of the tape dma this conflict usually manifests itself as a parity error your system crashes with a parity error message what happens is that data is being transferred so quickly by the sound card and the adaptec memory refresh cannot occur quickly enough which causes a parity error usually getting a parity error means that there is a hardware problem with your system in this case however the parity error is not a symptom of bad hardware i ve found that such parity errors typically occur while recording digitized sound and the chances of such errors increase as you increase the recording fidelity e g higher sampling rate recording in stereo recording using bits instead of etc like the tape drive solution the solution here is to lower the adaptec s bus on timing see the section on tape drives for information on how this is done note however that this may or may not solve the problem it may only reduce the probability of a parity error the software used to record digitized sound can greatly affect this problem i e some software is inefficient disk caches the speed of your hard disk and the amount of disk fragmentation can also affect this miscellaneous info this section contains miscellaneous hints tips and rumors much of it is merely information that i ve heard or read about and have not verified i believe that the following information is correct but i m not sure use it at your own risk with qemm and you need to specify the db parameter e g db unless you are using the aspi dos driver if you don t qemm will crash hang at bootup although the qemm manual mentions this the install program does not seem to detect that a is present and automatically add this option to the qemm command line at least this occurred with the qemm install program i haven t tested any other version earlier versions of qemm probably need this parameter but i m not sure i ve never used a version earlier than if you use aspi dos you do not need to give qemm the db parameter some or all versions of the do not support hard disks over one gigabyte in size to support hard disks with capacities over gb you need to get a new rom bios from adaptec i m not sure if this is still true of the latest bs being sold by adaptec to connect a cdrom drive to the you need a scsi cdrom drive and some drivers note that some cdrom drives have proprietary interfaces non scsi these drives cannot be used with the you have three choices for cdrom drivers i have no idea how well the following solutions work or even if they work the following is secondhand information you can buy adaptec s ez scsi driver package which lists for something like if you already have older adaptec drivers you can supposedly upgrade to ez scsi for around contact adaptec for details the ez scsi package supposedly contains everything that you need you can buy the corelscsi driver package which is made by the same people that make coreldraw this package contains cdrom drivers scsi tape drivers worm drivers etc i do not know the list price but i ve seen this package sold for around note that corelscsi does not come with the aspi dos driver which is needed if you do not already have aspi dos you may be better off getting adaptec s ez scsi instead this method is obsolete as the following drivers have been obsoleted by adaptec s ez scsi kit but i m mentioning it in case someone already has these drivers you can use the drivers in the adaptec asw kit aspi dos and the asw kit aspi cdrom drivers you will have to get a copy of mscdex exe a high level cdrom driver if it is not included in the asw kit but this is available from several bulletin boards to use a scsi tape drive with the you need software that knows how to talk to a scsi tape drive software that i ve heard about are again like the above section on cdrom drives i have no idea how well the following solutions work or even if they work the following is secondhand information central point pc tools for msdos supposedly supports a large number of scsi tape drives it comes with scsi drivers aspi dos as well as central point backup the corelscsi driver package contains a scsi tape backup program see the above section on cdrom drives for more details however note that corelscsi does not come with but requires aspi dos i ve seen advertisements that sell the in three configurations scsi controller with hard disk rom bios scsi controller w bios and adaptec aspi drivers scsi controller w bios adaptec aspi drivers and corelscsi drivers programs i imagine that adaptec now sells the in a fourth configuration scsi controller w bios and ez scsi drivers including aspi drivers those people who use unix might be interested in a version of gnu tar for msdos that talks to a scsi tape drive via the aspi dos driver you need this driver before you can use this program i ve never used this version of gnu tar but i ve heard that it works i don t know how well though if you have anonymous ftp access to the internet a copy can be found on wsmr simtel army mil and mirror sites pd msdos dskutl aspibin zip gnu tar for scsi tape drives adaptec xx aspipat zip patches for aspibin relative to gnu tar aspisrc zip src for gnu tar for scsi tape adaptec ctrlr i have no idea if a copy can be found on compuserve unixforum might have it if any forum does as far as msdos is concerned the a and the b controllers are the same with msdos the a should work as well as the b however the hardware for these two boards is not identical and there is at least one non msdos program that initially did not work with a a but did work with a b bsd a version of bsd unix in case anyone s curious here s an edited copy of my config sys file files buffers break on stacks device c sys dev aspi dos sys d n device c qemm qemm sys on ram rom dma st m x f ffff dos high umb devicehigh c sys dev nnansi sys devicehigh c dos setver exe shell c dos command com p note that i m using qemm and aspi dos if i were using aspi dos or a i d probably have to use a config sys that looked like files buffers break on stacks device c sys dev aspi dos sys d n device c qemm qemm sys on ram rom dma st m x f ffff dos high umb devicehigh c sys dev scsiha sys v devicehigh c sys dev nnansi sys devicehigh c dos setver exe shell c dos command com p if i weren t using aspi dos i d probably use something that looked like files buffers break on stacks device c sys dev scsiha sys v device c qemm qemm sys on ram rom db dma st m x f ffff dos high umb devicehigh c sys dev nnansi sys devicehigh c dos setver exe shell c dos command com p however if i used a floppy controller based tape drive or if i planned to record high quality sound from a sound card i would still need some way of changing the adaptec s bus on off times the first two versions of config sys take care of this but this last version doesn t local variables fill column eval auto fill mode nil end
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re western digital hd info needed my western digital also has three sets of pins on the back i am using it with another hard drive as well and the settings for the jumpers were written right on the circuit board of the wd drive ma sl i can t remember what the last one was if you can t find these markings on the circuit board i ll open my machine and tell you what mine are kevin holly mcmaster university hamilton ontario hollyk mcmail cis mcmaster ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re zeos computers i recently purchased the then current pkg dx for but changed to nec fgx monitor upgrade buy this pkg now for more you now get a bigger hd mb with hd cache days ago when i bought this pkg it was mb with k hd cache this is a great deal although it is generally recommended you at least upgrade to the zeos ctx monitor for more i believe whether you also upgrade to the diamond viper video card is your choice i stayed with the diamond speedstar pro zeos tech support is really good call after normal business hours to get the fastest access the hardest part about buying a zeos is the wait till it is delivered once you order you can hardly wait to get it there are quite a few good mail order houses around lots of bang for buck with zeos
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dos no boot disk required if you don t want emm to load in article ls poinnsvf levelland cs utexas edu sms cs utexas edu stephen mark sanderson writes from sms cs utexas edu stephen mark sanderson subject dos no boot disk required if you don t want emm to load date apr everybody dos users in particular take note if you want to play games that hate use their own upper memory manager dos is not a problem no boot disks required as your system starts up hit the f key this tells it to bypass config and autoexec altogether you get a plain generic session of dos with nothing loaded there s another function key that actually steps thru config sys asking if you want to execute each line but i ve forgotten it at the moment you can try finding it i think it s f no you need not bypass the config sys in dos there is a function of multi config have you tried boot sys the multi config is the kind that you can choose you config sys at the startup and i find that is very good it has no conflict to qemm i have problem when using boot sys the key you say is f which is trace the config sys step by step sorry if any error phillip phillipau cuhk hk
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	western digital no reply western digital s voice mail can get information on many drives or an actual person at the end
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	micron computer inc formerly edge technology since the net has convinced me not to try fastmicro if they were still answering their phones does anybody have any opinions on micron computer inc their vl magnum got an editors choice in the jan th roundup of s email and i ll sumarize greg greg ncel navy mil
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dac circuit g day all i was looking to build a parallel port digital to analogue converter the other day and came across this schematic which i promptly threw together on a piece of veroboard p k p k p k p k p k p k uf electrolytic p m p m nf ceramic p please excuse the obvious limits of the lower ascii char set i have it all constructed here and sitting inside a nice little grey abs box unfortunately i can t get it to work i have a little demo here by the name of cronologia which the schematic came from and all i can get it to pump out of the box is data type hash static with a small amount of music signal behind it it s even worse than the speaker inside the machine does anybody out in net colourful computer world have any ideas suggestions better designs improvements wastepaper bin etc many thanks for a reply via this conference or email x regards jason jason bordujenko computer department internet usenet d tanus oz au townsville grammar school fidonet node grammar bbs paxton street data phone no int townsville queensland aust australia facsimilie int aust god made him simple science made him god stephen king s the lawnmower man
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re heatsink needed andrew you can get the heat sinks at digi key part hs nd size l x w x h comes with clips to install it but if it was me i would get a small fan from radio shack and install it where it could just blow at the cpu instead sam gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	which high performance vlb video card my brother is in the market for a high performance video card that supports vesa local bus with mb ram does anyone have suggestions ideas on diamond stealth pro local bus orchid farenheit ati graphics ultra pro any other high performance vlb card please post or email thank you matt matthew b lawson mblawson essex ecn uoknor edu now i nebuchadnezzar praise and exalt and glorify the king of heaven because everything he does is right and all his ways are just nebuchadnezzar king of babylon b c
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	booting from b drive i have a drive as drive a how can i make the system boot from my b drive optimally the computer would be able to boot from either a or b checking them in order for a bootable disk but if i have to switch cables around and simply switch the drives so that it can t boot disks that s ok also boot b won t do the trick for me thanks davebo david weisberger q mr president do you care to say any more about the operational details of the airlift djweisbe the president no unix amherst edu q how about explaining to the american people why it s an important issue for the united states to undertake the president what
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	info about fast centronics ecp epp hello in the edn magazine i found a note about the new c t c i o controller it support several parallel port protocols including fast centronics microsoft enhanced capabilities protocol ecp enhanced parallel port epp the last two handle data rates up to mbytes sec is there any specification about these protocols available regards christian franke aachen university of technology informatik i ahornstrasse w aachen germany tel e mail franke informatik rwth aachen de
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitor for xga in apr watson ibm com kaul vnet ibm com writes my home viewsonic i like the multisyncs because it s easy to run them in modes like x x k colors noninterlaced or at higher modes like x x oh yeah i just got my new eizo flexscan yesterday to replace my old and i tried it with x this mode is just great i can get four perfectly readable command windows on the screen and if i need more colors i can go back to x or even x one thing i am wondering though why isn t there a monxxxx dgs file which contains all the resolutions up to x now i have to change the xgasetup pro every time i want to switch instead of simply going through the system settings of os regards martin erzberger
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	s re problems with s initialization as described the manual the following steps must be done for th initialization of the s card initdisplay bios call with ax reg f h with bx reg h for x x resolution interrupt h unlock register lock cr for access to s register set unlock register lock cr for access to syst control and syst extension register unlock graphic command group cr set bit to in syst configuration register unlock advanced display functions set bit to in function control register after these operations the fifo stack of the s should be empty when we watch the status graph proc status we always get the value fh instead of h full would mean ffh places occupied empty would mean h places occupied it is possible to read this register in two different ways both times we get different results our machine is a dx with eisa bus and a s c local bus any ideas andreas disteli institut fuer computersysteme eth zuerich email disteli inf ethz ch
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re recommendations for a local bus cached ide controller on apr gmt divya sundaram sundaram egr msu edu wrote i would like to hear the net wisdom and net opinions on ide controllers i would liek to get a ide controller card for my vlb dx motherboard what are good options for this preferably under it must also work under os and be compatible with stacker and other disk compression s w i have a maxtor mb on an isa ide controller although my machine is dx vlb i has the save transfer rate of mb s regardless of the variations of the isa bus speed i tested it with speed between mhz and mhz not any difference the problem is not the interface between the controller and the memory my advice buy megs of ram save and enjoy performance penio penev x w internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer all oppinions are mine
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	an simulator is example code available hello world i m attempting to write an simulator on an ibm pc for teaching purposes so that first year elec eng students can see the workings of the microcontroller as it performs operations logical ands for example being shown on a bit by bit basis and so that the students can see that it s not really a mystical process but totally logical for example every instruction should show some working and not just alter register memory port contents does anyone know of any freely available example simulation code in pascal or modula that would show me where i m going wrong in writing my simulator i m using ayala s the microcontroller as a reference the simulator supplied with the package is overkill for simple teaching purposes i feel and there s no source code to help you roll your own please email me if you can help or if you know of somewhere more appropriate i should be posting this i rarely scan these groups thanks lloyd wood l h wood lut ac uk
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wanna sex hello you re not quite sure if that s a joke or not anyway you read the article you re right the header only this is a joke it s worth reading perhaps some of you know my regular list of ide harddisk specs where i give all available information about ide harddrives i am strongly interested in contacting the manufacturers directly but i have no money for overseas calls so i need harddisk manufacturer s email addresses please help if you can carsten carsten grammes internet ph hucg rz uni sb de experimental physics voicenet universitaet saarbruecken faxnet saarbruecken germany
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	connection machine hiya all i realise this has little to do with pc s but it does have a lot to do with hardware so has nay of you heard of a computer called the connection machine if so could you e mail me any and all info you have eg references ideas etc all help is appreciated caviar dreams l cause s minyos xx rmit oz au royal melbourne institute of technology music is like directing sounds theatrically moulding them into landscapes i wanted to link my music to places architectural environments and visual techniques j m jarre
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi controller hi folks i have hd first is an seagate mb the second a cdc mb with a future domain no ram i d like to change my controller ide scsi and buy a new one with ram at least mb that could controll all of them any companies how many and is it possible via hw or via sw select how divide the ram cache for hd for example using dos that is about all on one hd i d like to reserve ram cache just to it thanks to all write at rosa ghost sm dsi unimi it
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	apple hard disk drive just wanted to ask a question i bought a hard disk drive second hand the other day and i opened the packaging up and saw that there was a small sticker on the drive that had a little red apple with a bite taken out of it it s socket did not look the same as my existing hard disk that is in my computer already it has fifty little pins sticking out from it instead of the that is sticking out of my old hard disk i don t know if disk drives for the apple or mac are different from ones used in at clones so could someone tell me if i could use this hard disk on my at clone if not what did i just purchase it s a quantum prodrive it s dated on the green board will i need a controller add in card all the help is much appreciated thanks pc
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re hard disk question in article aovai bp qube ocunix on ca aovai qube ocunix on ca aovai writes hi i just disassembled my old xt and get disk drives m hard drive and a k floppy drive my questions are can i use these drives as drives d e on my sx this sx currently has m hard drive m m floppy drives if i can what s w or h w do i need i would doubt that you would be able to use the hard drive xt drives usually came in mfm or rll flavors i bet your sx has ide drives the two are not compatible on the same controller however you might be able to use the drive with its controller in your sx you should be able to plug your k drive into your existing sx controller i think you might have to use the floppy controller that was used in the xt timothy hu timhu ico isc com the intelligence or lack of expressed interactive systems corporation above does not necessarily reflect resource solutions international that of anyone else also thu grips uwyo edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	what video board for my system i d appreciate any advice about a video card for my system dx mb of ram on a novell network monitor nec fge capable of hz vertical refresh rate major considerations i expect i will work mostly in windows but with some dos applications and i would want decent speed in dos i do mostly word processing database and communications not much intensive graphics with a monitor i expect i will work mostly in x and colors seems plenty but i d like like the image to be sharp fast and rock solid other considerations i sometimes run a unix clone coherent and i understand that some companies e g diamond don t encourage the third party development of drivers i might move to os if i decide i need better speed and reliability than i get with windows for my database work and multitasking i don t have a local bus motherboard i m not sure how much to invest in an isa video board versus getting something less expensive now and upgrading to local bus later i like buying things from companies that treat their customers well if you have any advice for me i d love to hear it via email or post thanks david m todd department of psychology university of massachusetts amherst ma usa phone david todd psych umass edu fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dx isa vs dx eisa hello can anyone give me their opinion on which system has got the best overall system performance dx with isa bus or dx with eisa bus the systems are equal in all other areas thanks in advance jesper honig spring spring diku dk if animals believed in god university of copenhagen denmark the devil would be a man
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	mountain tape backup dh does anyone out their have a mountain tape backup that i could compare dh notes with jumper settings software ect dh or does anyone know where i could contact the makers of this drive dh you can contact mountain network solutions at dh general number dh tech support dh bbs thanks very much for the info david especially for their tech and bbs lines this should get me going bye x slmr a x it s only a hobby only a hobby only a origin the keep bbs
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ctx i started a similar thread about a month ago and got many replies the summary ctx nasty low quality avoid ctx proscan not as good as some other makes however cheap main problem seems poor quality control some reported pincushioning the problem i had others poor focus etc etc i complained about mine and it was re tuned i dodn t even pay shipping and returned to me in days it s now clear well focussed and has no pincushioning or barrel distortion at all i m very happy with it and the digital controls and mode memory are nice certainly a trinitron say would be much nicer but that s well out of my price range conclusion if you re on a budget get one and be prepared to send it back if it s not perfect it probably won t be when you get it but has good potential chris
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dx isa vs dx eisa on fri apr gmt jesper honig spring spring diku dk wrote can anyone give me their opinion on which system has got the best overall system performance dx with isa bus or dx with eisa bus dx eisa vesa royal among others is celling such a system for penio penev x w internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer all oppinions are mine
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi i almost got a hernia laughing at this one if anything scsi on a pc will be obsolete killed off by vesa local bus ide it must be real nice to get shafted by bucks for the extra cost of a scsi drive then pay another for a scsi controller first off with all these huge software packages and files that they produce ide may no longer be sufficient for me mb limit second rumor is microsoft recognizes the the importance of scsi and will support it soon i m just not sure if it s on dos win or nt at any rate the deal is with corel who makes i hear a good cohesive set of scsi drivers mark ashley disclaimer my opinions not harris marka gcx ssd csd harris com the lost los angelino
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re difference between vlb and isa eisa hurley epcot spdc ti com writes in article apr spdc ti com what about vlb and a dx does the local bus still run at mhz or does it try to run at mhz brian hi vlb is defined for cards by mhz and cards by mhz there are designs with mhz and vlb slots s c t mhz and slots are realy difficult to design better oss os ix are able to handle more than mb of dram if you use eisa bus has someone experience with vlb i think of scsi vlb busmaster the problem is the bit floppy dma controller which is unable to reach more than mb joerg
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	orchid fahrenheit sparkel the answers ok thanks to all of you who responded to my post here s the official response from orchid orchid is aware of the problem the new rev of the board rev d should not would take care of the problem production was scheduled to start on april i have no confirmation that production did start on this day just the word of the tech on the other line now the flame you would think a company like orchid who has produced good quality products in the past would be more helpfull and willing to make right on a screwup of theirs very poor tech support the first times i called i must have spoke with the janitor because they where talking craziness the last time i talked to a tech named paul and he seemed to have a pretty good idea what was going on until these problems are resovled neither myself nor my department will buy or recommend orchid products flame off again thanks to all of you who answered my post terry
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	two questions two questions i m trying to figure out how to access cmos advanced chip setting on a eisa motherboard air that has ami bios specifically i would like to set the atclk or wait states or bus speed on this board i can t seem to be able to do it any help in this area would be greatly appreciated i am looking for a phone number for wangtek tape drives specifically i am looking for jumper settings on a en drive thanks in advance tony
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	eisa tape controllers is there a qic format tape drive that comes with an eisa controller colorado s only has isa and mca controllers thanks e mail please mark ashley disclaimer my opinions not harris marka gcx ssd csd harris com the lost los angelino
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re choosing an appropriate power supply please help in a previous article lopes cogsci ucsd edu alann lopes says the problem is that i recently had an hd go bad and someone suggested that it may have been because of an inadequate power supply how does one know what kind of wattage is necessary to run two large maxtors and i am not an expert my understanding is the watts output of the power supply must exceed the sum of the hard disk watts requirement typically a w power supply is sufficient to power a pc hope this help lau hon wah
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re why vesa local bus in a previous article guyd austin ibm com guy dawson says something to bear in mind is what the v in vlb stands for v for video the origional intention of the bus was to speed up the bus so that large memory to memory transfers would be faster this is espically useful in transfering data from main memory to video memory well not to be picky but the v in vlb stands for vesa while the v in vesa stands for video saying the v in vlb stands for video is not entirely correct
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	q which of these cd rom players would you choose for os netters i need a cdrom drive as my order was cancelled and thought why not ask the net community i was ordering a nec cdr but saw so much cheaper ones that i want to know more the drive will be used to install software and if available for listening to cd s perhaps some day i ll want to use it to read the other cd s but that s not really relevant at the moment i ve been offered the following cd rom players for the prices stated they all claim to have scsi i and operate under os the drives are not listed in the cdrom faq and therefor please give your opinions on the drives i ve got the impression that they re not all scsi actually the nec was listed as non scsi in the cdrom faq and as a compatible scsi product in the os faq i ve calculated the prices as having dutch guilders times it s actually about times mitsumi crmc philips lms i philips toshiba nec cdr who bought that trantor that is in the faq it s extremely cheap and scsi so what s the trick or where can i order it holland using mastercard trantor t regards jv name j v meuldijk o o address gildelaar hw teteringen fax holland e mail volkert kub nl oooo oooo
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	perfect mag mx f monitors i ve been intently following the mag thread while waiting for mine to arrive in the mail there seems to be a lot of complaints about minor alignment problems with the mx f one article contained a comment that the owner called the factory and was told that his screen rotation was within spec well my monitor arrived last night and sure enough it has a very noticable barrel distortion it s not dramatic but it is there and it is especially noticable when the image doesn t fill the entire screen the fact that it is worse on the right side doesn t help matters what i m trying to find out is if these minor imperfections are the norm or are most of their monitors perfect i don t want to send it back and get one with the same or an even worse problem does the factory consider this kind of thing normal and ship their monitors with less than perfect alignment are other netters just living with these kind of imperfections comments and opinions are mine not bnr s doug adcock adcock bnr ca bell northern research research triangle park nc
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	connecting apple laserwriter ii to ibm pc has anyone tried connecting an apple laserwriter ii to a pc do i need any special controller card or software to do that thanks for any comments sardjono insani scip nusunix nus sg
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re shopping for a new nec monitor in article qjfa inn g titan ucs umass edu dtodd titan ucs umass edu david m todd writes from dtodd titan ucs umass edu david m todd subject re shopping for a new nec monitor date apr in article qhppp gha darwin sura net wbarnes sura net bill barnes writes basically i m looking for a svga x non interlaced monitor the nec fg is the one most of the computer mags use as their standard and from what i ve seen and heard it looks pretty good but it s a bit expensive bucks is the best deal i ve seen so i thought perhaps i might find something as good for less any recommendations i also thought about the nec fgx which has the same specs as the fg except for the scan frequency which is more limited anybody have any comments on this one would it work with i believe that nec is replacing the fg and fgx with fge and fge models reportedly being released at the end of this month i m waiting for a fge the main difference being a year warranty and higher refresh rates at the higher resolutions it sounded from a pc magazine note that the fge was being boosted in a number of ways call the nec number and have them send you info david m todd department of psychology university of massachusetts amherst ma usa phone david todd psych umass edu fax i have been using a nec fgx for several months now several others here also have this monitor we have had no problems personally i would spend extra money for this monitor and sacrifice other features on a pc such as mhz viz mhz based on the comments of others you might want to view the fgx vs the series on a pc running windows at x the refresh rate appears ok for me but you might feel differently finally speaking of spending money with the size of today s files etc a tape backup is certainly worth recently i set up a friend s pc mhz and vesa local bus the redraw time for a graphics program was only a factor of faster which i doubt warrants the extra cost
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re wanted opinions on mag s and nanao i monitor sleeping dragon ong mang iastate edu wrote i m looking to buy a monitor soon and it seems that i can t decide what monitor i should buy i have a mag s this is a dpi version and it using a triniton tube and a nanao i in mind good luck finding an mx s when i was looking around back in december january mag wasn t producing any because they couldn t get tubes from sony i asked when they expected to restart production as i was willing to wait a few months to get an mx s but they said not any time soon i wound up getting a t i and am extremely happy with it david david engel optical data systems inc david ods com e arapaho road richardson tx
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	hard disk utilities hi to all you pc gurus i m new to these groups and so please forgive me if my questions are frequently asked but i don t know the answer i ve been recently having some problems with my computer with a seagate meg hard drive i occasionally find corrupted files but most of the time programs work fine are there any utilities that are easily available that can help me determine whether or not the problem is a result of the hard drive vs an ill behaved program or some other hardware item are there utilites to determine whether or not the hard drive is properly aligned etc as might be expected i would greatly appreciate any help on this matter i m considering just reformatting the disk and reinstalling everything and hoping that will fix the problem but i would like to have some assurance of what the problem cause is also can someone give me an opinion on dos are the compression and defragmentation routines good enough to consider the upgrade if i don t have those routines already as opposed to buying them separately much thanks in advance for any help mitchel soltys soltys radonc unc edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re recommendations for a local bus cached ide controller in article apr sol ctr columbia edu penev venezia rockefeller edu writes i would like to hear the net wisdom and net opinions on ide controllers i would liek to get a ide controller card for my vlb dx motherboard what are good options for this preferably under it must also work under os and be compatible with stacker and other disk compression s w i have a maxtor mb on an isa ide controller although my machine is dx vlb i has the save transfer rate of mb s regardless of the variations of the isa bus speed i tested it with speed between mhz and mhz not any difference the problem is not the interface between the controller and the memory my advice buy megs of ram save and enjoy performance computer mhz bus isa mhz drive maxtor a mb config sys autoexec bat ms dos no win smartdrv sys cache smartdrv exe core v k sec k sec k sec norton si v k sec k sec k sec i d still like to here from people with vlb ide i still want to know what vlb bus speed is used with ide drives i still want to know if some most ide drives can handle bus speeds mhz ps a friend with a and a new maxtor meg ide drive gets between k sec can t remember exactly i think the bus is running at mhz in this case
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ibm pc convertible parts sale i have some used but working parts available for the original ibm laptop the pc convertible if you have one of these things and still are using it you may have found out that ibm wants outrageous prices for parts i built up a supply of enough parts to keep mine going for a few years and will be willing to part with the rest basically i have all the standard parts except motherboard battery power supply i ve got a few of the accessories too just ask these are in very limited supply however i ve basically just cannibalized a couple of old machines if you are interested please e mail me note for those who want to convince themselves that they are somehow superior because they have newer and better machines or who want to inform me that these are worthless junk save your effort i ll just delete the note those of us who bought these machines when they first came out still find them useful for word processing etc i m saving mine as a future antique
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi dxb psuvm psu edu writes scsi i ranges from mb s scsi ii ranges from mb s ide ranges from mb s esdi is always mb s although there are some non standard versions the above does not tell the proper story of scsi scsi i bit asynchronous mb s ave synchronous mb s max transfer base scsi faster this requires a scsi controller chip and provides scsi bit to bit speeds with scsi controlers scsi mb s with mb s burst bit mb s with mb s burst bit and mb s with mb s burst bit wide and fast bit scsi can be wide or fast it depends on how the port is designed the quadras will support fast scsi but not wide when the os scsi manager is rewritten since the quardas use a scsi non wide port the article in pc mag was talking about scsi scsi uses ten devices in it native mode outside its native mode it behaves a lot like scsi devices slower through put from your own figures scsi is indeed twice esdi as the article pointed out as for faster then ide that seems to be bit scsi using a scsi contoler chip the mac quadra uses a scsi controler chip for its scsi and gets mb s through put for asynchronous bit scsi far in excess of a normal synchronous scsi output of is which is near the burst of a scsi machine with a scsi controller chip the pc world seems to have scsi and scsi mixed up fact is scsi controler chips allow near scsi speeds through a scsi device as shown in the mac quadra which skews some of the data of scsi vs ide or esdi test i agree that the article could have stated that the faster then ide came off a scsi device with a scsi chip maybe it was there and the editor killed it because the article was dealing with scsi not scsi and he did not understand the effect of a scsi device with a scsi controller chip scsi chips are limited to mb max scsi devices with scsi chips becoming common produce up to mb s in bit mode and mb s in bit mode the fast version scsi ports cannot use wide scsi of cource the prime piece of wierdness is that scsi devices have scsi chips or more accurately the machine does this allows the best of both worlds high scsi speeds and cheeper scsi costs full scsi hardware port electronic controller etc is very expensive it also creates a logistic nightmare as to how fast scsi goes when one knows the facts behind the numbers then one realizes that the article knows what it is talking about even if it does not tell how the figures came about while dxb psuvm psu edu is throwing out ranges that don t tell squat since he ignores scsi devices with scsi chips his ranges tell even less then intended
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help with bit mode for ati in article wong apr ws webo dg com wong ws webo dg com e wong writes i finally got the vesa driver for my ati graphics ultra plus m however where did you get this driver please please please i ve been waiting months for this when i tried to use this to view under bit mode i get lines on the picture with bit or below the picture is fine can someone tell me what was wrong is it the card or is it the software thanks user s name edward wong internet wong ws webo dg com telephone cannon lobby ti com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi dxb psuvm psu edu writes in article qlbrlinn rk dns nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb says in pc magazine april although scsi is twice as fasst as esdi faster than ide and support up to devices its acceptance has long been stalled by incompatability problems and installation headaches i love it when magazine writers make stupid statements like that re performance where do they get those numbers i ll list the actual performance ranges which should convince anyone that such a statement is absurd scsi i ranges from mb s scsi ii ranges from mb s ide ranges from mb s esdi is always mb s although there are some non standard versions all this shows is that you don t know much about scsi scsi with a scsi controler chip range is indeed mb s and that is all you have right about scsi scsi with a scsi controller chip mb s with mb s burst bit note the increase in speed the mac quadra uses this version of scsi so it does exist some pc use this set up too scsi bit scsi mode mb s with mb s burst scsi bit wide or fast mode mb s with mb s burst scsi bit wide and fast mb s with mb s burst by your own data the although scsi is twice as fast as esdi is correct with a scsi controller chip scsi can reach mb s which is indeed faster than ide of is all these scsi facts have been posted to this newsgroup in my mac ibm info sheet available by ftp on sumex aim stanford edu in the info mac report as mac ibm compare version txt it should be but may still be there part of this problem is both mac and ibm pc are inconsiant about what scsi is which though it is well documented that the quadra has a scsi chip an apple salesperson said it uses a fast scsi chip not at a mb s mb s burst it does not scsi is mb s maximum synchronous and quadra uses ansynchronous scsi which is slower it seems that mac and ibm see scsi interface and think scsi when it maybe a scsi interface driven in the machine by a scsi controller chip in bit mode which is much faster then true scsi can go don t slam an article because you don t understand what is going on one reference for the quadra s scsi controller chip is digital review oct v n p
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re booting from b drive djweisbe unix amherst edu david weisberger writes i have a drive as drive a how can i make the system boot from my b drive optimally the computer would be able to boot from either a or b checking them in order for a bootable disk but if i have to switch cables around and simply switch the drives so that it can t boot disks that s ok also boot b won t do the trick for me thanks davebo you can try to get into the setup byt pressing ctrl alt ins or ctrl alt printscreen on most pc s that should give you an option to set regarding the drives to boot from
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	pc sound on a sb i read sometime in the last couple of weeks an article which desribed how to play pc sound through a soundblaster i didn t save the article and all old articles have been purged from our system here would whomever posted the article detailing where to connect the wires please re post specifically i need to know where to connect wires from the pc speaker to the sb card thx in advance carl
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	no bit box on gateway while playing around with my gateway local bus machine last night it became apparent that windows didn t give the option for bit access for virtual memory i am using a permanent swap file and the disk drive is on the local bus interface is this expected or should i be investigating further why no bit option appears thanks for any help scott linn scott hpcvccl cv hp com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	question how to get serial mouse working on ibm notebook l do you happen to know how i can get a serial mouse pins working on an ibm l notebook which has a kind of bus mouse connection besides serial and parallel interfaces the manual doesn t say anything about it i ve tried two drivers with the result that left and right buttons are recognized but mouse movement is not should i cut or shortcut some wires to from the mouse thanks for your help eddy zondag philips research egzondag prl philips nl
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re laserjet iv upgrades to dpi opinions larryhow austin ibm com wrote what are the current products available to upgrade the resolution which ones support postscript any experiences with them either good or bad is the quality difference really noticable i m planning on producing camera ready copy of homes will the higher resolution be noticed for these if you are talking about laser jet then i believe it has to be postscript i don t see any advantage to using pcl when you have a peice of hardware plugged into the lj that is doing the work and it can support any language that is suited for the job besides i don t think pcl is even capable of handling dpi specifications i only have experience with the laser master winjet which brings the lj up to dpi and it uses postscript it also has a fast print mode which is not postscript and it is at a lower resolution dpi i think but it is fast this particular product uses your host processor to process the postscript so even with a decent pc you know it s going to be slow i e slow compared to a high end workstation processed ps the quality difference is very noticable and is almost worth the wait for the ps processing i m rather impatient we were using it for b w camera images rs the gray scale image was accepted by ms word and handed to the winjet ps printer driver which converts the image into postscript and then hands it off to the winjets postscript processor the postscript is rendered into ram lots of it and when it is done it shoots it directly to the printer the ps processor can also accept ps files created from other sources including dos applications but windows has to be running at the time of printing the ps processor is responsible for the halftoning and i d say it does a pretty good job our camera images came out very good in my opinion not as good as laser master s demo though i don t know how many other similar products are out there but i would be surprised if there are several gordon lang
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	tandberg future domain tmc seagate st m problem i am trying to get my system to work with a tandberg future domain tmc seagate st m mfm controller the system boots up if the tandberg is disconnected from the system and of course no scsi devices found i have no other scsi devices the system boots up if the seagate mfm controller is removed from the system the future domain card reports finding the tandberg on the scsi bus the system then of course stops booting because my mfm hard disks can t be found the system hangs if all three tandberg future domain tmc seagate mfm controller are in the system looks like there is some conflict between the seagate and future domain card but the funny thing is that it only hangs if the tandberg is connected i have checked that there are no conflict in bios addresses irq i o port have i missed anything i am lost here any suggestions are most welcomed thanks in advance delman delman lee tel medical image processing group fax university of pennsylvania f blockley hall service drive philadelphia pa u s a internet delman mipg upenn edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	logitech button mouse bios routines availability newsgroups comp ibm pc hardware subject logitech button mouse pin out bios routine availability distribution world organization purdue university engineering computer network i have a logitech s f or f s button mouse that i want to interface to a serial port of a different non ibm compatible system the mouse is xt at ps compatible with a db connector i tried to reverse engineer the mouse but it has a micro controller inside it if i could get the db pin out and perhaps a copy of the bios routines that support it i could map all this into my target system anyone know where i might get the pin out or the bios routines are the routines published someplace convenient thanks silvio ps please send email to me directly
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re booting from b drive david weisberger djweisbe unix amherst edu wrote i have a drive as drive a how can i make the system boot from my b drive optimally the computer would be able to boot from either a or b checking them in order for a bootable disk but if i have to switch cables around and simply switch the drives so that it can t boot disks that s ok also boot b won t do the trick for me thanks davebo we had the same issue plague us for months on our gateway i finally got tired of it so i permanently interchanged the drives the only reason i didn t do it in the first place was because i had several bootable s and some based install disks which expected the a drive i order all new software and upgrades to be and the number of stupid install programs that can t handle an alternate drive are declining with time the ones i had are now upgraded and as for the bootable s i just cut replacements if switching the drives is not an option you might be able to wire up a drive switch to your computer chasis i haven t tried it but i think it would work as long as it is wired carefully gordon lang
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re soundblaster irq and port settings the cybard dudek acsu buffalo edu wrote uzun netcom com william roger uzun writes i have a soundblaster board in a sx pc and i have it jumpered to irq port h will this conflict with my parallel port i just have an ide controller a multi io board with ser par port and a vga board should i choose another irq besides or is irq safe to use on motherboards recently i was adding a modem to my computer and i noticed that lpt uses irq and so does my sb card h i ve never had a problem but i m just wondering why not i thought this would cause a conflict i would also like an explanation of this if anyone can explain why the sb pro and lpt can share an irq please do so thanks tom huot huot cray com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	bye as of today i will no longer be a contact for zeos international on the net this responsibility has been taken over by another tech davidm zeos com and i am moving up and on mo money mo money i just wanted to thank all of the netters who have supported and encouraged the participation of zeos on the net i personally feel it is important for companies such as zeos to provide their customers with as easy access as possible when they have questions problems and being on the net is an big step in the right direction i hope that other companies will follow suit as weitek and others have done again thanks jre jim erickson zzzz eeee oo ssss zeos international ltd support zeos com inet z e o o s technical support dept uunet zeos support uucp z ee o o sss industrial blvd n e any opinions expressed z e o o s minneapolis mn herein are my own zzzz eeee oo ssss fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help installing old hd on older compaq xt we are trying to install a donated hard disk miniscribe vintage on a supercheap ancient compaq xt for use in education the only problem is that the supercheap compaq didn t come with the manual and i haven t been able to figure out how to start the setup program i began using pcs after s were invented so i have a couple of basic questions did xt class computers even have setup programs if they did or do how do i access it if anybody has any good advice on how to proceed or what to do next or what to look out for please let me know e mail is best but i ll also be watching the newsgroup postings thanks in advance robert robert luke internet luke aero org the aerospace corporation compuserve danger will robinson
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re zeos computers mspeed ccwf cc utexas edu matthew p speed writes i am looking at purchasing a system from zeos computers i would appreciate if people could give me some feedback about the quality of their products and customer service along with any advice about which systems people like thanks in advance i bought a dx system a little over years ago and was satisfied with everything about zeos that computer went off to grad school with my son and i replaced it with a dx pkg mbhd mb ram with diamond viper k level cache and tower upgrades delete the ctx monitor i got a hp d a monitor employee purchase this is a great system fast quiet solidly built not a single glitch bringing it up tech support seems busier now than years ago i called with a configuration question and they called back hours later with the right answer i think there s a slight premium over gateway prices but imho zeos is worth it btw they have enough lines that i ve never gotten a busy signal calling sales customer service or tech support now you usually wait or minutes to talk to someone but at least you get in the queue and wait on their dime al devilbiss al col hp com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	what svga excuse me to every one i am an amiga owner and tired to have the same graphic modes so i saw on nn there was a little bridgeboard that made the amiga s pc slots communicate with the stanndard amiga s slot the building mother house of this little gadget assure me that using this thing i can use all the pc boards included the svga cards i am interested in computer graphics and i do not know many things about pc in general so what is the best isa slot card on the market i d like to reach resolutions like x with colors or x with bitplanes any suggestion thankyou in advance paolo silvera certified commodore amiga developer silvera ghost sm dsi unimi it
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	amd cpu any comments of amd microprocessors good bad thanks pat
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	leading tech question hey does anybody know anything about leading technology computers i have a leading technology sx and need a new mother board for it does anybody know where i can get one leading technoology is really made by samsung sx is samsung model sd
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need info on high quality video card hi i need some info on video card i am looking a video card that can deliver a high quality picture i need the card to display images well for advertising company btw so it must be rich with colors and the speed must be fast too i am just wondering if somebody can advise me what to buy for such application and possible the address of the vendor thanks in advance glenn jayaputera
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	comments on an accelerated video card for isa bus hi i am looking to buy an accelerated video card for my dx with isa bus i have a svga ni monitor i m currently running dos and windows although i m considering os in the future can anyone make a suggestion for a video card that would suit my needs how is diamond speedstar stealth etc thanks kent
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	monitor with rgb sync to vga i don t know if this is an obvious question but can any of the current batch of windows accelerator cards diamond etc be used to drive a monitor which has rgb and horizontal and vertical sync bnc jacks altogether connectors out the back i might be able to get ahold of a raster technologies monitor cheap and i was wondering if it was possible to connect it via an adapter rgb to vga to my gateway would i need different drivers etc thanks mike scanlon please reply to scanlon interlan com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	for sale decpc sxlp for sale decpc sxlp it s in very good condition used for one year it has mhz intel mb hard disk super color vga monitor button mouse mg floppy disk drive software microsoft dos microsoft windows microsoft works for windows borland turbo pascal borland turbo c for dos i m asking for the system send me e mail if interested
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors tony catone catone compstat wharton upenn edu wrote in article c geh n d utdallas edu goyal utdallas edu mohit k goyal writes oh yeah i just read in another newsgroup that the t i uses a high quality trinitron tube than is in most monitors the sony s for example and this is where the extra cost comes from it is also where the high bandwidth comes from and the fantastic image and the large image size etc etc it s also where the two annoying lines across the screen one a third down the other two thirds down come from the lines are not a result of the high end trinitron tube these wires will be found on all trinitron tubes e g mitsubishi sony etc on sony tubes you ll find one wire their level of annoyance is purely subjective i m so happy with the sharpness of the t i that i don t even notice the lines the t i uses a trinitron sa tube which when viewed as a complete tube has a larger diameter than the standard trinitron tube this results in a flatter screen than other monitors using the standard trinitron which has a vertically flat but not horizontally flat surface and apparently the ability to provide a tighter beam focus karl tracy blomquist e mail tracyb bnr ca fax consultant opinions are my own ph bell northern research p o box stn c ottawa ont k y h
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re soundblaster irq and port settings in apr walter cray com huot cray com tom huot writes i would also like an explanation of this if anyone can explain why the sb pro and lpt can share an irq please do so i think it s simply because dos doesn t use the irq for anything os does so with that you can t share the irq anssi anssi saari s ee tut fi tampere university of technology finland europe
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi in article qlbrlinn rk dns nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb writes in pc magazine april although scsi is twice as fasst as esdi faster than ide and support up to devices its acceptance has long been stalled by incompatability problems and installation headaches note what it does not site as a factor price there is a premium of approx for the controller what is nice is being able to run hard disks tape drives cd roms and scanners of one dma channel and interupt scsi makes sense is you are going to load up a machine if you just want a standard box for windows then ide makes sense i have one loaded box that uses scsi and run unix and one standard box that runs dos windows that uses ide by standard i mean mb ram mh disk s video int eh same article the pc would will get plug and play scsi from the article it seems you get plug and play scsi only since scsi in full implimentation has ten not devices i beleive this last bit is just plain wrong scsi intergration is sited as another part of the microsoft plug and play program guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	orchid p vs fahrenheit mini review i just purchased a viewsonic and and orchid p in short i am happy with the monitor and unhappy with the card i have spent a lot more time futzing with the card so that is what i am going to write about the monitor is pretty the moires i had under simcity on my magnavox went away it isn t as heavy as i thought it would be lbs i think so much for the monitor on to the bitch session and test results in going with the modern trend the orchid p card only supports colors in x mode without a driver of course this breaks any dos program which uses svga modes like most of my cd roms the compudyne whiplash vga orchid fahrenheit and orchid f vlb all share this limitation those are all s cards which means it is an s problem for them the p uses a weitek vga chip which also doesn t support them the hercules graphite card does seem to have these modes but i didn t run the same test cases as i did on the other boards during the brief time i had it it was able to print the splash screen for the grolier s encyclopedia though which the s cards just printed as hash which is why i suspect the svga modes are supported the supported resolutions really annoy me you can do x at hz if you tell the driver you have an nec fg they only have about six monitors listed plus generic and if you choose generic you can t get any high refreshes at all but at x you are limited to hz seems to me that the hardware should be able to support the bandwidth if it can do hz at it sure should be able to do it at higher vertical resolution was the main reason i bought the card over the orchid f vlb i currently have and it will do x x hz as well the higher graphics modes all crash hp dashboard i just got off the phone with orchid and with the drivers i don t know what i have he was unable to recreate the problem on the plus side their tech rep was as helpful as he could be and booted up the program on his computer to verify he didn t have the problem he didn t know why they limited the refresh to hz either the board is faster that the ofvlb for most things according to the hercules speedy program this program tests various operations and reports the results in pixels second i don t have the numbers for the graphite card but they were close to half of the ofvlb ie slower but that was running in a mhz isa so the numbers aren t really comparable the following numbers were all obtained using a mhz air motherboard umc chipset with mb memory i give ranges because the program reports the numbers as it computes them and these tend to jump around a bit k means thousand not m means million pixels per second orchid fahrenheit vlb orchid p chip s weitek dib to screen k k k k memory to screen m m m m screen to screen m m m m vector solid m m m vector styled k k k k polygon shaded m m m m polygon hatched m m m m ternary rops m m k k font k k k k m the dib to screen test takes a device independent bitmap of a face and transfers it to the screen i have no idea what is being done internally as far as conversions go the memory to screen takes the same face and copies it to the screen my guess is after it has been rasterized into a bitmap that can just be copied to the video display the screen to screen test copies that face from place to place on the screen awesome interestingly the solid vectors and shaded polygons show no improvement and hatched polygons ie filled with cross hatching and ternary rops whatever they are graphics operations like xors maybe are a dead loss on the i give two numbers for the fonts because i think they are caching when the fonts are first drawn on the screen they are done fairly slowly the speed of the ofvlb then the speed increases dramatically sounds like programming to a benchmark to me i make no claims that these numbers mean anything at all its just what i saw when i ran them on my computer i normally don t write disclaimers but this time maybe i d better my testing is totally unconnected with my work i program under unix on decstations is done completely without the knowledge blessing or equipment of my company geoff sherwood
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	question can i connect two harddisk to one controller hi i ve got a victor pc xt with a mb harddisk in it the controller is a toshiba mfm controller with an additional pins connector there are busses from my harddisk to this controller one with wires and another with wires the controller has two connectors for a wire bus and one for a wire bus now i got a mb harddisk from a friend of mine and i wondered whether i can connect this second harddisk to the same controller there is room for a wire bus but not for the wire bus how can i solve my problem any suggestions if you need more info mail me please luttik fwi uva nl bas
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	s video card at different address i d like to add a second s based video card to my system does anyone know of a company that sells a card that can coexist with another one all i really need is color text on one monitor and fast color graphics on the other probably just a configurable address would do it
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	switch to a hi i d like to switch my floppy drives so that my b drive becomes a while my a becomes b i m having a few problems though i know that the ribbon cable must be switched as well as the cmos settings to reflect this change and i think that i ve done that correctly however the drives do not operate correctly in this configuration from the c prompt if i type a the drive light comes on if i type b both the light for the and drives come on there are some jumpers on each drive label original pos pos i changed it to ds on off ds off on ds on on ds off off io off off ms off off d r on on ms on on fg off off ds off on ds on off ds off off ds off off mm on on dc on on md off off ttl c mo on on any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated thanks in advance eric balog balog eniac seas upenn edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help me select a backup solution hi netters i m looking at purchasing some sort of backup solution after you read about my situation i d like your opinion here s the scenario there are two computers in the house one is a small mb ide drive the other is a dx scsi drive w adaptec controller both systems have pc tools and will use central point backup as the backup restore program both systems have and floppies the computers are not networked nor will they be anytime soon from what i have seen so far there appear to be at least possible solutions i m sure there are others i haven t thought about for these options i would appreciate hearing from anyone who has tried them or sees any flaws drive type x won t coexist with device y etc in my thinking i don t know very much about these beasts put mb floppy drives or a combination drive on each system can someone supply cost and brand information what s a good brand what do the floppies themselves cost put an internal tape backup unit on the using my scsi adapter and continue to back up the with floppies again can someone recommend a few manufacturers the only brand i remember is colorado memories any happy or unhappy users i know about the compression controversy connect an external tape backup unit on the using my scsi adapter and maybe connect it to the somehow any suggestions install a floptical drive in each machine again any gotcha s or recommendations for manufacturers i appreciate your help you may either post or send me e mail i will summarize all responses for the net thanks george george j pandelios internet gjp sei cmu edu software engineering institute usenet sei gjp fifth avenue voice pittsburgh pa fax disclaimer these opinions are my own and do not reflect those of the software engineering institute its sponsors customers clients affiliates or carnegie mellon university in fact any resemblence of these opinions to any individual living or dead fictional or real is purely coincidental so there
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help video problems i am using a ibm monitor greysale with a trident mb card the screen looks great windows at x but total shit at x there are lots of lines and the image is sorta blurry is there anything i can do do you think it is the monitor i know that it is interlaced at that res but still thanks for the help paul davies pdavies alchemy chem utoronto ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re comments video blaster creative labs in article apr ultb isc rit edu mej ritvax isc rit edu writes in bu edu heiser acs bu edu bill heiser writes in article c rdy fw chinet chi il us randy chinet chi il us randy suess w rites the video blaster doesn t work with the ati graphics ultra pro doesn t work with m system ram are you serious so i can t use a video blaster in my mb what are the alternatives other than removing memory get a better one hows about the win tv thing the wailer at the gates of dawn banshee cats ucsc edu just who are you calling a froofroo head od just a friend of the beast banshee ucscb ucsc edu banshee ucscb bitnet no good i perfer watchit tv it can run in dos and windows win tv only run in windows sorry still no good watchit tv will not work on a with local bus video it will not work in any high reolution modes either the people who make the card assure me that they will have a card available in june that supports both local bus and hi res btw does anyone know the name of the company who makes watchit tv phone bbs internet thanks michael grant mikgr wordperfect com or mikgr wpsun uunet uu net
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re int h for joysticks is slow lioness oak circa ufl edu writes i m using int h to read my joystick and it is hideously slow something like of my cpu time is being spent reading the joystick and this is in a program that does nothing but printf and joyread the problem is that a lot of programs trap int h like smartdrv and so it is a slow as hell interface can i read the joystick port in a reasonably safe fashion via polling and that isn t platform or clockspeed specific the joystick reads in anolog values through a digital port how you send a command to the port to read it then you time how long it takes for the joystick port to set a certain bit this time is proportional to the joystick position obviously since time is used as a position you cannot get rid of this ridiculus waste of time if you wrote your own routine instead of the bios it would speed it up some but the time would still be there john a slagel my old man used to tell me before he left this j slagel uiuc edu shitty world never chase buses or women you always get left behind the marlboro man
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	fujitsu and seagate ide drive compatibility i ve been trying to get my fujitsu m t mb hard disk circa to share my ide card with a new seagate st a mb one i ve tried fiddling the jumpers to set the master and slave drives without any success without the table of hard drive specs from this newsgroup i couldn t have got that far has anyone else got this combination to work the place i got the new one muttered something like hmmm fujitsu nice drives not very compatible he ll let me swap the seagate for another brand but he thought it was more a problem with the fujitsu so has anyone got a similar fujitsu drive to work with another cheapish disk or want to buy a cute and cuddly little fujitsu drive andrew henry bspahh gdr bath ac uk
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	memory access time was re sram and simms sale ben elliston writes msg id aa f n z fidonet org posted mon apr organization compact solutions canberra act australia k of ns sram by my way of thinking michael how could this memory be static ram if it has a speed rating i didn t think sram needed a refresh time doesn t that make it fast dram this chip would take ns to return valid data after being issued an address refresh time none for sram as you pointed out is a different parameter and is not generally referred to except by motherboard designers cheers ben ben elliston bachelor of engineering computer engineering university of canberra email tp jarrah canberra edu au uucp uunet munnari sserve adfa oz au compsol root fidonet if a train station is where the train stops what s a workstation origin compact solutions canberra act australia doug oke vancouver canada doug oke mindlink bc ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	q asus motherboards i m considering the purchase of a dx vlb system to run linux the system has an asus brand motherboard anyone have any comments on asus motherboards thanks bob craycroft craycrof rtp semi harris com systems analyst phone harris semiconductor rtp nc usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	specs for a wd drive greetings all could some kind sole email me the specs for a western digital drive it is model wd a with cyl and hds but i do not know the sectors per track or any of the other information i have to feed to my bios to get it up and running thanx for any help bob k roking lynx dac northeastern edu nope no sig honest
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	i need a definition of the spec and dhrystone benchmarks i need definitions of the spec and dhrystone benchmarks any background material would also be welcome if anyoneand email something to me or point me to an anonymous ftp server i d appreciate it thanks al dykes adykes jpr com adykes ad com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re toshiba b cd rom any problems i have the pas toshiba combo and have no problems with it
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	adaptec asw and sony cdu about two months ago i purchased the adaptec asw driver for use with a cd rom drive at the time this seemed the thing to do as the documentation i had with my adaptec scsi controller said that this is the driver to be used with cd rom drives since then i have learn that this driver is out of date in a major way and that adaptec have an upgrade deal for going to the next driver i think it s called ezi scsi or something i wasn t too fussed about this until i upgraded by cd rom drive from a sony cdu to a sony cdu i now find that the audio mode will not work i assume it is not being handled correctly by the asw driver so should i chase adaptec for an upgrade if so does anyone know their fax number any assistance appreciated regards btw everything else works fine certainly seems that sony have caught up with the rest with the nigel harwood post coles supermarkets po box glen iris australia phone e mail nigel cnw storesys coles oz au fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	do not rotate interrupter woops help aaahhhh please someone tell me what i have done my meg miniscribe at has a big sticker on the side that says do not rotate interrupter big knob here a big knob sticking off the side of the drive is pretty hard not to turn when removing the drive i turned it now the drive won t spin up even with no data or controller cables plugged in just power it won t spin up please help thanks paul carroll pec ra msstate edu pec erc msstate edu nsf engineering research center for computational field simulation
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	a drive won t boot hi i recently switched my drive to a the problem is while i can read and write to both the new a and b correctly i can t boot from a floppy in a i ve checked the cmos settings it is set for floppy seek at boot and boot order a c once i had a floppy that did not have the systems files on it in a i got a message telling me to put a disk systems disk in the drive it didn t work when i do have a systems disk in the a drive this is what happens power on and memory test a light comes on b light comes on followed by a short beep hd light comes on for an instant b light comes on again then nothing happens the light goes off there is no disk activity of any kind and the screen blanks i can t even use ctrl alt del any suggestions thanks in advance eric balog balog eniac seas upenn edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re date is stuck kevin kosman uucp kevin o gorman writes anybody seen the date get stuck i m running ms dos with a menu system alive all the time the machine is left running all the time suddenly the date no longer rolls over the time is reasonably accurate allways but we have to change the date by hand every morning this involves exiting the menu system to get to dos anyone have the slightest idea why this should be even a clue as to whether the hardware battery cmos or dos is broken kevin o gorman kevin kosman uucp kevin kosman uucp nrc com voice vital computer systems beachcomber oxnard ca non disclaimer my boss is me and he stands behind everything i say i ve started to notice the same thing myself i m running dos and win so i can fix it from the windows control panel at times it is the date at others the clock seems to be running several minutes behind where it should be if you find out i d like to know also oh and i also leave my system running all the time barry sardis home laurie avenue office san jose ca fax email bsardis netcom com or compuserve com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help installing second ide drive recently my cousin got a second internal ide drive a seagate mb i can look up the model number if it s important and i ve been trying to help him install it i ve got a vested interest since my machine s busted and i have to use his until i get mine fixed he already has a seagate mb ide hd again i forget the model number but i can find out anyway i can t seem to get the bloody thing up i ve managed to get one or the other drive up with the other disconnected but not both at the same time whenever i try the thing hangs during bootup never gets past the system test the ide controller s instruction sheet says it supports two drives i think i ve configured the cmos correctly the power s plugged in properly i even learned about the master slave relationship that two hds are supposed to have didn t know pcs were into s m and i think i configured the jumpers properly the mb one is the master the new mb one is the slave the only thing i can think of is maybe i m doing the cabling wrong i ve tried several combinations controller master slave controller slave master master controller slave none of them worked unfortunately i can t think of any others another possibility is that the mb one is already partitioned into two seperate drives c and d and the cmos asks for c drive and d drive setup info rather than drive and drive like most others i ve seen could this be confusing things so i need help the drive came bereft of any docs except for some info for the cmos setup the controller has a little piece of paper about the size of an index card i cannibalized the cable it s one of those with a connector at each end and the one in the middle so it looks like a serial connection now i be lost many many thanks in advance this is practically an emergency i have two papers to do on this thing for monday help william barnes suranet operations wbarnes sura net voice fax disclaimer i don t speak for suranet and they don t speak for me
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi in article qmgtrinnf a dns nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb says dxb psuvm psu edu writes in article qlbrlinn rk dns nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb says in pc magazine april although scsi is twice as fasst as esdi faster than ide and support up to devices its acceptance has long been stalled by incompatability problems and installation headaches i love it when magazine writers make stupid statements like that re performance where do they get those numbers i ll list the actual performance ranges which should convince anyone that such a statement is absurd scsi i ranges from mb s scsi ii ranges from mb s ide ranges from mb s esdi is always mb s although there are some non standard versions by your own data the although scsi is twice as fast as esdi is correct how is twice do you just pick whatever scsi setup that makes the statment correct even if you could make such a statement it would be meaningless unless you understood that esdi and ide i include scsi and ata are completely different esdi is device level like mfm rll with a scsi controller chip scsi can reach mb s which is indeed faster than ide of is all these scsi facts have been great you can compare two numbers ata has several speed modes by the way but what the article said was misleading wrong posted to this newsgroup in my mac ibm info sheet available by ftp on sumex aim stanford edu in the info mac report as mac ibm compare version txt it should be but may still be there i would recommend people call the ncr board and download the ansi specs if they are really interested in this stuff part of this problem is both mac and ibm pc are inconsiant about what scsi is which though it is well documented that the quadra has a scsi chip an apple salesperson said it uses a fast scsi chip not at a mb s mb s burst it does not scsi is mb s maximum synchronous and quadra uses ansynchronous scsi which is slower it seems that mac and ibm see something is missing there anyway i agree there s a lot of opportunity for marketing jingo like scsi compliant which tells you nothing about the performance whether it has wide support etc one reference for the quadra s scsi controller chip is digital review oct v n p what does it use hopefully a good ncr chip e g c
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re need phone number for western digital esdi problem western digital sam gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help is my monitor dying hi recently my svga monitor has been acting up by taking about minutes to warm up previously when i first start up my pc i can see all the cmos messages ram test etc but now i ve got to wait for about min before the display shows anything and it starts up with a bright white flash this only happens when the system has been off for a long time eg overnight if it was only off for a couple of hours and then turned on again the display works as normal like before does anyone know what is causing this is it a warning that it will give up soon or just signs of aging the system is a sx and its about yrs old i ve used systems at work for years and never seen this happen to a monitor yet i d really appreciated any help that you fellow netters can offer thanks a lot edwin edwin ng edwin ccu aukuni ac nz e e engineering university of auckland private bag auckland new zealand
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi here we go again in article apr julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes in article ercc h w netcom com erc netcom com eric smith writes scsi is better because it has a better future and it has a lot of minor advantages right now ide cards are cheaper right now but will be obsolete in a few years in fact ide cards are so cheap they might as well be free the real cost is in the ide drives scsi cards cost more but they are worth it i almost got a hernia laughing at this one you ll probably get one when you realize that your vesa super dooper local bus ultra high tech controller sucks if anything scsi on a pc will be obsolete killed off by vesa local with any luck pc bus archeitecture will be doen any with by sbus have you ever seen what happens when you hook a busmaster controller to a vesa local bus it actually slows down your system bus ide it must be real nice to get shafted by bucks for the extra cost of a scsi drive then pay another for a scsi controller maybe my workstation doesn t understand what your vesa local bus ide is vesa local bus will be killed off by pcmi whatever intels spec is vlbus it not good for much more than vga cards to each his own i ll laugh when you start crying over how much you spent for your little ide drives and then finding out you need more space the biggest advantage of scsi right now is that you can add more different kinds of devices such as tapes etc easily and can add bigger disks the best and most cost effective hard disks available are scsi here here only of you need drives larger then meg oh yes gotta have megs sec transfer rate for those speedy tape backups and cd rom drives don t stick your foot in your mouth when you make a statement you know nothing about i d rather wait a second compared to the minutes and ide would take obviously exaggerated have you ever tried to backup gigs of disk oh i forgot you can t because you have an ide and no one makes ide disks that big basically if a person has to ask which one is better for him her then they will probably never see the expensive benefits from scsi i guess you probably bought a sx too also all this arm waving about scsi expandability is a moot point if the user only has one or two drives on it and with scsi those two drives may be fast but that speed is only due to the onboard memory cache something i can duplicate with a caching ide controller what the scsi fast wide spec has much more bandwidth than any stupid vlbus ide crap stop this thread now its just cluttering up bandwidth if you want to read about scsi vs ide just pay a visit to you local usenet archive the best scsi fast wide etc is clearly faster than any the best ide drive all the response given are based upon personal experience with or drives you can t judge such completely different interfaces ide has the low cost adavantage a descent performance scsi has the ability for super high capacity expandibility and speed neither one is better in all cases if you don t belive what i said about busmastering and vlbus then pick up a back issue of pc week in whihc they tested vlbus eisa and isa busmastering cards send flames to dev null scott mace internet smace nyx cs du edu emace tenet edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	mb isa limit i was just reading in pc magazine that the peripherals in a pc with an isa bus can only access mb of memory also that some video cards on the isa bus look for a memory aperture to map their memory to so that if i wanted to put mb of memory on my pc my video card wouldn t have anywhere to map it s memory to can someone explain this in more detail is there a way around this limit if you email me a response i will summarize bo begolej csgrad cs vt edu james bo begole begolej csgrad cs vt edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors i have a sony s monitor and i don t see any lines across the screen and am only using the non interlaced mode but because of the hor lines and poping that i do see and hear when i am usinf x x and x x modes and switch back to anything of less i would not buy another sony at what ever price oh ya this is i guess a viewing area it don t impress me one bit sam gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re please help identify this old com ethernet card in article qhvuninnhau emory mathcs emory edu splee pd org seng poh lee speedy writes i have an old com ethernet card pc at bus that came out of a apollo workstation i m trying to identify it in order to use it on a pc the assembly number is rev and it is a bit card circa it has an aui port as well as a bnc coax connection it has selectable address for the bios io dma and irq locations via berg jumpers it also appears to have a intel processor on board presumably for buffering the ethernet chip appears to be an intel a pin dip package is this chip an equivalent to the used in some cards there is also a pin plcc chip called a link please e mail as i don t think this is of general interest my least favorite last line of a post um it is of general interest as i prepare to retire apollos myself i m looking for ways to recycle the useful parts mike simon simon moscow uidaho edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re changing motherboards messing with connectors in article ip portland caps maine edu jozef slaby ip portland caps maine edu writes when i changed my motherboard i had a lot of trouble getting led spkr turbo turboswitch hdd klck rst connectors correctly reconnected for example turbo switch had three wires and the motherboard connection only two pins and so on does anyone know a solution to this do i need to rewire the connectors or what is the best way to approach this it is somewhat frustrating i got it to work somehow but my turbo switch doesn t work at all i just put replaced the motherboard in a system and had similar questions my cents worth the speaker connector should have two wires going to the speaker a speaker being a coil it s bidirectional and makes no difference which way you attach turbo switch there are three wires to control how you want turbo to become active with the switch pushed in or the switch out i think the middle wire is common use an ohm meter to figure out which wire connects with the common wire when the switch is pushed in and which two wires are connected when the switch is out place the appropriate two wires on the turbo berg connector of the motherboard led s turbo and hd led s are uni directional depending which way the wires are attached the led will not light on my ami motherboard if the turbo switch wires are not attached to the berg connector on the board the board will power up in default in turbo mode if your motherboard is like that just attace the led wires to the board if the led doesn t light power off reverse the connectors and try again it should work if it does then attach the turbo switch to the board hope this helps dan moyer dan moyer columbiasc ncr com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re soundblaster irq and port settings in article s ee tut fi s ee tut fi anssi saari says in apr walter cray com huot cray com tom huot writes i would also like an explanation of this if anyone can explain why the sb pro and lpt can share an irq please do so i think it s simply because dos doesn t use the irq for anything os does so with that you can t share the irq that is correct in dos you can use irq for your sb you can t do that under os because it uses irq for the printer
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	info on genoa vlb card or other low end vlb i am looking for an inexpensive vlb card and have yet to run across any real reviews of them one of the cards the local stores are pushing is the genoa for apparently it uses a cirrus logic acc chip but i don t know which one gd one of the shops i ve spoken with claims the card out performs the diamond stealth vl and the orchid fahrenheit plus vl cards s c based but that can t be true if it is using the gd i like the price of the genoa but if it lags in performance behind the s cards i ll pay the extra for one of them any info on low end vlb cards would be appreciated if i get replies via email i ll post summary info if anyone else is interested thanks in advance brian oppy bjoppy ucdavis edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re splitting drives into two does it make them faster in article d q b w w infopls chi il us andyross infopls chi il us andrew rossmann writes guyd austin ibm com guy dawson writes the partitions take up disk space having or partition will cost somewhere between meg of hard disk space if you can afoord this luxury more power to you its your choice where does all this disk space go the dos partition table is fixed length and every hard disk carries one what is useing this lost mb if i remember right the partition table is allocated an entire cylinder to find out how much it takes up you need to calculate heads sectors also if you create an extended partition there is a second partition in there for the logical drives i think the original respondent guy dawson was refering to something much more elementary every partition whether it is the entire disk or not has two fats and an initial directory if you have a small disk meg or less i would recommend that it remain a single partition unless you have some other consideration if you have a large disk greater than meg multiple partitions can make sense mike lipsie work mlipsie ca merl com mitsubishi electronic research laboratory home mikel dosbears uucp
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re more western digital hd info needed cs sd ae maccs mcmaster ca holly ks writes my western digital also has three sets of pins on the back i am using it with another hard drive as well and the settings for the jumpers were written right on the circuit board of the wd drive ma sl well i figured out how the jumpers go now i have quite a different problem that has me perplexed like you wouldn t know i have both drives working the c system formatted and all of my hardware installed only problem is that during the boot up sequence the computer does not want to pass up looking for a system on the a drive reinitialization all goes fine and the bios seems to be configured to what is necessary all the drive tests work but when the thing comes back around to the a drive and there is no disk present it just spins if you insert a disk into drive a with a system however it works fine and boots up ie how installed all my software any additional help on this will be most welcome swood hunting over in michigan don t despair no closed season on opossum porcupine weasel red squirrel skunk starlings feral pigeons english sparrows ground squirrel woodchuck anyway trout season opens the last saturday this month
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help is my monitor dying it sounds like a magnavox with a sick flyback on its way out gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors catone compstat wharton upenn edu tony catone writes in article c geh n d utdallas edu goyal utdallas edu mohit k goyal writes oh yeah i just read in another newsgroup that the t i uses a high quality trinitron tube than is in most monitors the sony s for example and this is where the extra cost comes from it is also where the high bandwidth comes from and the fantastic image and the large image size etc etc it s also where the two annoying lines across the screen one a third down the other two thirds down come from annoying are you actually using one or are you just talking i m sitting in from of one right now and i must say i never notice them yes of course i can see them if i look but annoying no way christian m christian holmgreen joker diku dk mochmch uts uni c dk m sc student university of copenhagen dept of computer science human errors can only be avoided if one can avoid the use of humans
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	can t write to floppy ok all you experts need answer quick machine floppy unable to write to a formated disk machine claims that disk is write protected but it is not note it ll read s with no problem please e mail or post
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re difference between vlb and isa eisa in article snx finbol toppoint de jschief finbol toppoint de joerg schlaeger writes better oss os ix are able to handle more than mb of dram if you use eisa bus has someone experience with vlb i think of scsi vlb busmaster the problem is the bit floppy dma controller which is unable to reach more than mb i don t think fd is a problem since fd is much sloooooooowwwwwwer than hd the overhead of double buffering doesn t matter ken nakata i apologize if there are incorrect rude and or impolite expressions in this mail or post they are not intended please consider that english is a second language for me and i don t have full understanding of certain words or each nuance of a phrase thank you ken nakata cis student njit
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how to number prongs of a chip how can one tell which prong of your basic chip is number i realize there is a chunk of the chip missing so that one can orient it correctly so using that hole as a guide how can i count the prongs of the chip to find please help ren hoek internet ren ccwf cc utexas edu it is not i who am crazy it is i who am mad
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help with no docs for motherboard 
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	pc scanners hello there i am looking out for good scanners gray scale only no color which can be connected to ibm pc compatibles also automatic tray feeding is a must can somebody point out good scanners what are things that one should look for while purchasing a scanner i do not want hand held scanners my preliminary requirements are to dpi dithering half toning various patterns drivers for dos and windows standard file formats what are they automatic feed anything more is there any comparative survery in byte or pc mag which issue please e mail i ll summerize satam satam saathi ernet in kirtikumar g satam satam saathi ncst ernet in scientist network division national center for software technology juhu bombay tel fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re original ibm pc specs in article c jd j i s dutiws twi tudelft nl winfrvk dutiws twi tudelft nl r v kampen writes in article apr ucbeh san uc edu hoffmamc ucbeh san uc edu wr ites a hard drive with xt type controller can be added but i recommend not trying a full height hard drive as i have run into trouble with the w supply not having the oomph to spool up those big heavy platters one way to get the system going with one floppy drive and one hard disk on a watt power supply is to first disconnect the power from the floppy drive than turn on the pc you will notice the hard drive having a real difficult time getting up to speed but it manages when booting is finished plug in your floppy drive now it will work ok i know this is not very user friendly maybe you are better off buying a with watt power supply or something like that willem the newer the drive the less problem you will have the old ten and fifteen meg full heights were power hogs but i have over twenty units that i set up running flawlessly with half height drives and or hard cards dao ns cc lehigh edu don
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re possible faq question about a uart thought i d post this as well as e mail it just in case anyone else is interested in this info in article apr henson cc wwu edu n henson cc wwu edu dan jordan writes hello my question is could someone e mail me the names of manufactures of the and predecsor uarts i have only seen them refered to by number however i would like to find a technical manual for these ics any where i can find out the technical specs for these uarts would be appreciated prefereably the as well as the however one will do i suggest that you go direct to the original and preferred best quality source for all of this just as you would at least should for the chips themselves national semiconductor you can reach them at they no longer package the data sheets in a book as they did when i got mine but you can get them as individual sets of data sheets you want as a minimum the following sets of data sheets ns ins a ns c ins c a ns af application notes yes get these an the ns a uart design and application considerations an a comparison of the ins ns and ns af series of uarts both of the application notes i listed have proven to be at least as valuable as the data sheets themselves more actually an in particular is an exceptionally well written application note that goes into detail about how and why the does what it does and how best to take advantage of it btw they send these out free as long as you don t abuse it later jim include std disclaimer h de n ial internet jim n ial mythical com j graham ieee org icbm n w amateur radio n ial w zbb ft walton beach fl amtor selcal nial e mail me for information about kamterm host mode for kantronics tncs
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi wayne smith wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wrote in article qk kvinnndk dns nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb writes point of view why does scsi have an advantage when it comes to multi tasking data is data and it could be anywhere on the drive can scsi find it faster can it get it off the drive and into the computer faster does it have a better cache system i thought scsi was good at managing a data bus when multiple devices are attached if we are only talking about a single drive explain why scsi is inherently faster at managing data from a hard drive ide integrated device electronics currently the most common standard and is mainly used for medium sized drives can have more than one hard drive asynchronous transfer mb s max why don t you start with the spec sheet of the isa bus first you can quote scsi specs till you re blue in the face but if they exceed the isa bus capability then what s the point who said isa was necessary eisa or vlb are the only interfaces worth investing thousands of dollars e g a new pc s worth of money in who says ide is limited to megs sec what about vlb ide does anyone know how they perform you didn t read to carefully vlb ide uses the same connection mechanism as standard ide if transfer rate is limited by ide whether it s interfaced to isa eisa or vlb matters not so at its lowest setting scsi interface in asynchronous scsi mode averages the through put maximum of ide in asynchronous mode in full scsi mode it blows poor ide out the window down the street and into the garbage can as implimented on what system on mine for one thing scsi blows ide out of the water hands down if ide has better throughput why isn t it used on workstations and file servers the problem becomes can the drive mechanisim keep up with those through put rates and that is where the bottleneck and cost of scsi comes from not the interface itself but more and more from drive mechanisims to use the scsi through put given the original question scsi used only as a single hard drive controller is it then necessary to get a scsi drive that will do at least maybe megs sec for the scsi choice to make any sence what does a meg megs sec scsi drive cost no that s the nice thing on a multitasking os scsi can use both drives at once i ve got unix loaded on one of my pcs along with windogs and the os can only use one of the two ide drives at one time it s pretty ugly i just bought at quantum for my mac at home i paid for it i haven t seen ide drives cheaper the original cga cart back in was i think the original ega card or pga was scsi has stood relatively alone in not coming down in price mainly because we re talking about pc s and not sun s or sparc or sgi or name your favorite unix workstation that is after millions of pc buying decisions over the years scsi has had plenty of time to come down in price no actually we re talking about scsi being expensive simply because nobody did a common interface for the pc if they had a common read easily implemented method of adding scsi to a pc like as in a sun or mac then you d find scsi the connection medium of choice i won t argue that the scsi standard makes for a good well implimented data highway but i still want to know why it intrinsically better than ide on an isa bus when it comes to multi tasking os s when managing data from a single scsi hard drive on a single drive scsi is more expensive but you bought your pc for expandibility so you d want to add more drives or whatever the following are why i find scsi intrinsically better than ide a partial list you can add many different types of devices and access them concurrently a scsi device works on many different machines i have a mac and a pc at home and moving hard drives between them is very nice with scsi hook them up and away they go scsi devices work together better than ide devices for instance recently i added an older connor meg ide to a maxtor meg ide the connor must be setup as the slave it will work no other way on scsi you set the address check the termination plug it in and away it goes i have a problem with ide s mutual exclusion i notice that the time it takes to switch from accessing drive c to drive d is quite long as compared to the time it takes to switch from drive c to d on a scsi system under a multitasking os this is very noticable as many things can be going on at once one neat thing that i ve noticed lately a fringe benefit has been the ability to add older almost dead drives as storage on a scsi system with little problem we ve got a bunch of almost dead meg drives that i ve added to my pc i ve now got the interface full but it does allow me to have meg drives meg drive tape drive and meg drive all on the same card simply put scsi is handier than ide no mysterious jumpers to figure out greg you can t go against nature because when you do greg shaw go against nature it s part of nature too shaw feanor xel com love rockets uunet csn xel com shaw
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi grubb bgrubb dante nmsu edu wrote wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes what does a meg megs sec scsi drive cost since the quadra is the only mac able to deal with mb s and hard drives start at mb i have no idea for the mac i have the following these are all external mb mb mb mb mb mb mb mb mb mb mb mb mb mb etc i thought you might want the latest prices as of macweek meg int ext m couldn t find one available m m all above are quantum low profile drives the last three are quantum height drives bunch o stuff deleted scsi came from the high end computer world with multitasking os were the standard for the most part hear hear you can t go against nature because when you do greg shaw go against nature it s part of nature too shaw feanor xel com love rockets uunet csn xel com shaw
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide mfm in same machine how if anyone out there can help i would greatly appreciate it this christmas i built a computer out of used parts for my father in law the disk drive that i installed was a seagate mfm anyway he now he would like to put another hd into this system i don t want to buy another mfm the only reason why i used an mfm in the first place is that it was free would i need a special ide hd controller also if i do need a special ide controller where can i purchase one how much are they please send any responses to lynn vax mankato msus edu thanks in advance stan tyree
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	maxtor drive geometry jumpers 
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help my gateway freezes up help my computer from gateway is freezing up on me gateway tech support couldn t help me they want more specifics on when it freezes up i did anyway here it is if the keyboard is left idle in dos for more than minutes i can type on the command line but as soon as i hit a carraige return the computer locks up this will happen almost every time whether i ve just booted up reset or finished using a dos program everything works fine if i don t let it sit windows is a different story if i let the machine sit while in windows for minutes or more it does not freeze up however i do get frequent application errors that kick me out of an application unexpectedly losing my work i just don t know if this is a hardware or software problem any help in diagnosis or things to try would be greatly appreciated p s i do not run any tsrs except smartdrive and qaplus diagnostics says everything is good system is sx crystalscan gateway monitor vlb ati ultra pro using mach driver build winchester mb hd microsoft mouse thanks el guapo
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	conner cp g info please i have a conner disk model cp g mb with no info at all the only thing i know is that is normally used with compaq machines please send me information on switch settings geometry and so on it looks like a normal ide disk but is it possible to use it with a standard ide controller michael michael thurbin sommarvagen phone s vaxjoe fax sweden
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	looking for replacement for a jvc disk hi i got hold of an old zenith laptop with model zwl the hard disk is dead but the rest seems to work i took the zenith apart and found a very strange disk for wich i now try to replace the disk is marked jvc model jd r has anyone any specs on this disk or suggestion where i can find it or a cheap replacement for it thanks for your help michael michael thurbin michael pcmith rks se michael thurbin sommarvagen phone s vaxjoe fax sweden
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re s video card at different address in article qmrdd h umcc umcc umich edu jon umcc umcc umich edu jon zeeff writes i d like to add a second s based video card to my system does anyone know of a company that sells a card that can coexist with another one all i really need is color text on one monitor and fast color graphics on the other probably just a configurable address would do it for what it s worth i haven t confirmed it a diamond tech rep told me that all s based video cards use port addresses x e and x e if this is true it appears that you cannot use more than one s card in your system lance hartmann lance hartmann austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com yes that is a percent sign in my network address all statements comments opinions etc herein reflect those of the author and shall not be misconstrued as those of ibm or anyone else for that matter
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	turbomodem complete pc question i m trying to transfer some software between two machines and i m having real trouble my own intel k v v bis v v bis works fine i just talk to it at k and everything comes out clear this other modem at the other machine is a turbomodem from the complete pc the machines are in seperate houses so a direct serial link is impossible and copying this much data to disk is a pain easier to turn the machines on for a few hours and go see a movie no this is not pirated software i am having no end of trouble trying to set it up it will dial and connect just fine at baud but if i try to set the comm at k k or kbps the stupid thing connects but just gives garbage it connects k his machine a dx has a afn uart so that s not the problem it seems to me that the stupid thing wants to talk to a comm program at bps even though it will take dialing instructions at k and respond ok etc to other commands i don t have a comm program that can do precisely k i looked at the manual but it was unclear all i know is i didn t have this trouble with the intel it came ready to connect this way do i need to initialize it any way in particular also it s using v bis and v and mnp when connecting here i e at since our tests at k are zip so far but it doesn t say so there any ideas btw i tried the initialization string that i use for my modem but it just gives error on that one moscow a grandfather who taught literature in an orphanage has gone on trial in rostov on the don after confessing to more than gruesome sexual murders whose victims included children as young as eight events in modern history from the sunday mail apr
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	faq on cyrix dlc is there a faq on cyrix dlc could anyone please repost it or email to me if i missed it thanks in advance alexander poylisher internet apoylis inode com fidonet blue wave qwk v
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi in article c lkev hpj feanor xel com shaw feanor xel com greg shaw writes why don t you start with the spec sheet of the isa bus first you can quote scsi specs till you re blue in the face but if they exceed the isa bus capability then what s the point who said isa was necessary eisa or vlb are the only interfaces worth investing thousands of dollars e g a new pc s worth of money in then don t complain maybe it wasn t you that scsi was so expensive on pc s because all we ve had until a year or two ago was the isa bus ie no one buys scsi for isa because isa is slow are you saying that scsi on an isa bus is not an automatic winner when compared to ide you didn t read to carefully vlb ide uses the same connection mechanism as standard ide if transfer rate is limited by ide whether it s interfaced to isa eisa or vlb matters not i get different transfer rates out of my ide when i change my isa bus speed on mine for one thing scsi blows ide out of the water hands down if ide has better throughput why isn t it used on workstations and file servers ide is just a variant of the old ibm mfm at controller at least that s how it looks from a software point of view it was never meant to be an all encompassing protocal standard to be implimented across different platforms is there any argument that ide can or can t transfer data from the ide drive at least as fast as the drive is able to provide the data are scsi versions of ide drives able to deliver higher sustained transfer rates to their scsi interface because of a higher rpm platter different arrangement of heads etc given the original question scsi used only as a single hard drive controller is it then necessary to get a scsi drive that will do at least maybe megs sec for the scsi choice to make any sence what does a meg megs sec scsi drive cost no that s the nice thing on a multitasking os scsi can use both drives at once i ve got unix loaded on one of my pcs along with windogs and the os can only use one of the two ide drives at one time it s pretty ugly if data is going from one drive to another and if scsi has the ability to perform that transfer without the data having to go through the cpu or main memory then yes that is the optimal way to do it as far as i know ide can t do that but when the cpu wants data from both drives data to be stored in main memory are you saying that scsi can grab data from both drives at the same time and store transfer that data to main memory also at the same time working off irq and dma channel on an isa or whatever bus i just bought at quantum for my mac at home i paid for it i haven t seen ide drives cheaper a friend of mine just got a maxtor meg ide drive for that s million bytes or mega bytes with the basic interface he gets close to meg sec transfer on his does your figure include a few hundred for scsi drivers no actually we re talking about scsi being expensive simply because nobody did a common interface for the pc if they had a common read easily implemented method of adding scsi to a pc like as in a sun or mac then you d find scsi the connection medium of choice so you re saying that scsi would have been the default interface type considering that the vast majority of pc s don t have cd rom drives or tape backups or etc that most pc s only have or had hard drive and run dos that scsi hard drives cost a lot more than mfm or rll drives at the time and how common were scsi drives under megs to years ago there s a lot more than the lack of a common interface card that prevented scsi from becoming the connection medium of choice i won t argue that the scsi standard makes for a good well implimented data highway but i still want to know why it intrinsically better than ide on an isa bus when it comes to multi tasking os s when managing data from a single scsi hard drive on a single drive scsi is more expensive but on that point is it faster this is what all this is about do you get more performance for the money for all the people that will only have a single hard drive in their system regardless of the os will the scsi choice really give them more performance than ide but you bought your pc for expandibility so you d want to add more drives or whatever true but expandibility can also start on the bus which means the option is there for cd rom drives or tape backups that run off their own cards you can add many different types of devices and access them concurrently no argument this is always held up to the first time scsi buyer as the best reason but how many scsi devices will the first time scsi buyer eventually acquire again does it make sense to go scsi for a single hard drive system a scsi device works on many different machines i have a mac and a pc at home and moving hard drives between them is very nice with scsi hook them up and away they go with all the postings on the scsi i or ii specs are you really sure that pc and apple scsi hard drives are compatible and even if they are is the data accessible from either machine ie are there no formatting partitioning or file table differences is it really plug n play scsi devices work together better than ide devices for instance recently i added an older connor meg ide to a maxtor meg ide the connor must be setup as the slave it will work no other way on scsi you set the address check the termination plug it in and away it goes so the c drive on the connor becomes a logical d drive to dos is this really a problem i have a problem with ide s mutual exclusion i notice that the time it takes to switch from accessing drive c to drive d is quite long as compared to the time it takes to switch from drive c to d on a scsi system under a multitasking os this is very noticable as many things can be going on at once after having two ide drives in my system for temporary file transfers i have never seen any differences when switching between drives nor have i ever seen any differences when transfering files between drives or to from the same drive one neat thing that i ve noticed lately a fringe benefit has been the ability to add older almost dead drives as storage on a scsi system with little problem we ve got a bunch of almost dead meg drives that i ve added to my pc i ve now got the interface full but it does allow me to have meg drives meg drive tape drive and meg drive all on the same card that is nice as long as the power supply can keep up i do believe that there is the possibility for up to ide drives on a pc simply put scsi is handier than ide no mysterious jumpers to figure out but what about mysterious and expensive drivers to figure out at least ide doesn t require drivers that consume precious conventional dos memory
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	jumper settings for omti esdi controller subject says it all i m looking for the jumper settings for an sms omti at bus esdi controller card thanks in advance richard richard solomon ncr microelectronics aeroplaza drive richard solomon colospgs ncr com colorado springs co uunet ncrcom ncr mpd richard solomon
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide esdi coexistence hello all you the net are my last resort or i ll just change my job this might be a faq e g mixing controllers but haven t seen any sys ami bios and your run of the mill multi i o card with serials paral floppies and ide controller clone gw ex there are no jumpers affecting the hd or ctrller quantum prodrive lps m type cyl hds spt pb i want to bring in this nd hand neat price maxtor xt b e m ms bios type ctrller manages the real geom cyl hds spt western digital wd v se esdi ctrller no floppies jumpers set irq hw port addr f and bios addr cc c and other floppy format stuff goal have the wd esdi as a secondary controller and have both disks simultaneously working being able to boot from the esdi too would be a nice bonus but is not expected ultimate goal have room for linux et al ex of scheme i have in mind boot from ide hd or floppy and mount the esdi as root not booting from esdi or even from hd is acceptable i have tried numerous all combinations to no avail they work alone or can coexist witout hang ups but can t access the esdi or the ide depending on setup jumpers useful suggestions might be how do i tell the bios setup about two ctrllers i guess the nd hd is expected to hang off the same ctrller as the st do i need some driver to make it work some new bios chip for any of these cards do i have to buy another controller to make them hds happy ide is cheaper esdi is hard to find and rather costly i m not rich or i wouldnt try to scavenge around so soft slns are preferred adapters of some sort i can hold a soldering iron and can change a chip or put a jumper also useful bbs or hot line of western digital ftp archives with relevant info expert stores in toronto ontario area that would be a miracle haven t seen any really knowledgeable ppl in a while any hints into inner workings of the system anything else that helped you in similar situations prayers direct or posted replies are ok many thanks cat catalin ivan email ivan iro umontreal ca tel human computer interaction humain machine universite de montreal informatique et recherche operationelle
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re toshiba b cd rom any problems msmith beta tricity wsu edu mark smith writes i m thinking about getting a toshiba cd rom and hooking it up through the scsi port on a media vision pro audio spectrum sound board does anybody have this configuration out there if so does it work for anybody in general who has the toshiba cd rom drive have you had any hadware problems door not opening scratched disks door not closing getting stuck or not closing all the way cd holder jamming and any other cd related problems i have one and it is my favorite cd rom drive so far i also have a nec and have had experience with several other drives various phillips drives the is faster than the nec i like its door better the nec needs hands the xa handling the nec needs to be re booted to go from xa to rom while the does it on the fly all in all i am seriously considering replacing my nec with another toshiba jws
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re please help identify this old com ethernet card simon moscow uidaho edu mike simon writes in article qhvuninnhau emory mathcs emory edu splee pd org seng poh lee speedy writes i have an old com ethernet card pc at bus that came out of a apollo workstation i m trying to identify it in order to use it on a pc the assembly number is rev and it is a bit card circa it has an aui port as well as a bnc coax connection it has selectable address for the bios io dma and irq locations via berg jumpers it also appears to have a intel processor on board presumably for buffering the ethernet chip appears to be an intel a pin dip package is this chip an equivalent to the used in some cards there is also a pin plcc chip called a link i got two very similar sounding boards for dirt cheap too their assy numbers were not series but your description fits otherwise they are com c s aka etherlink plus cards check out ftp com com there are drivers and diagnostic programs for just about any and all com cards i concluded that my card was the after i ran their diagnostic program for c succesfully passes with flying colours anybody know of packet drivers for these cards under os juha liukkonen aka jliukkon cc helsinki fi university of helsinki dept of lost souls trust me i know what i m doing sledge hammer
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi in article apr julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes i won t argue that the scsi standard makes for a good well implimented data highway but i still want to know why it intrinsically better than ide on an isa bus when it comes to multi tasking os s when managing data from a single scsi hard drive i have been following this thread and figured i d throw in my two cents the amiga zorro ii bus is comparable with the isa bus vs mhz the amiga has had a pre emptative multi tasking os since and can operate with mb ram scsi is used almost exclusively on these systems a scsi controller that transfers data by dma allows the cpu to request data from the hard drive and continue working while the controller gets the data and moves it to memory a controller that allows reselection can operate even better with multiple devices this is espically true with scsi tape units for example when rewinding or formatting a tape the command is issued to the controller and the bus is released to allow access to other devices on the bus this greatly increases productivity or at least do something else while backing up your hard drive which happens to be what i am doing while reading this group its a long story but i still use ide on my except for the cdrom which thanks to scsi i can move between both machines if and when scsi is better standardized and supported on the ibm clone machines i plan to completely get rid of ide wayne summer amiga simply the best palm bay fl us x wayne amtower spacecoast org quote of the week don t hate microsoft because because they are microsoft though hate them because their products are lame found in c s ibm pc misc
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re toshiba b cd rom any problems in article apr serval net wsu edu msmith beta tricity wsu edu mark smith writes once in a while you have to put in a good word for something that works well i have had no problems with my toshiba it works very well with dos and os for os you don t need to load any special drivers the installation will detect that it is a toshiba drive and you are done btw it s also very fast carlos rimola sarti email rimola csisdn com connective strategies inc car btr com isdn pri connectivity phone
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi in article wayne uv amtower spacecoast org wayne amtower spacecoast orgx newssoftware grn f by mike schwartz michael b smith writes in article apr julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes i won t argue that the scsi standard makes for a good well implimented data highway but i still want to know why it intrinsically better than ide on an isa bus when it comes to multi tasking os s when managing data from a single scsi hard drive i have been following this thread and figured i d throw in my two cents the amiga zorro ii bus is comparable with the isa bus vs mhz except for the fact that it s superior in just about every way to the isa bus the amiga has had a pre emptative multi tasking os since and can operate with mb ram scsi is used almost exclusively on these systems except for the new systems that now ship only with ide controllers toodlepip marc em
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help with olivetti floppy we are trying to connect an olivetti xm floppy drive as the second drive on a panasonic machine it seems to sort of talk to it gets it spinning and stepping but gives a disk not ready error there are two jumpers which seem to work best open a position dip switch and a position dip switch we don t know how to set the dip switches and think that may be the problem any information or advice other than junk the stupid thing would be most appreciated thanks email reply preferred jdresser tymnet com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi in article wayne uv amtower spacecoast org wayne amtower spacecoast orgx newssoftware grn f by mike schwartz michael b smith writes but i still want to know why it intrinsically better than ide on an isa bus when it comes to multi tasking os s when managing data from a single scsi hard drive a scsi controller that transfers data by dma allows the cpu to request data from the hard drive and continue working while the controller gets the data and moves it to memory ide also uses dma techniques i believe floppy controller also uses dma and most a d boards also use dma dma is no big deal and has nothing to do directly with scsi for example when rewinding or formatting a tape the command is issued to the controller and the bus is released to allow access to other devices on the bus this greatly increases productivity or at least do something else while backing up your hard drive which happens to be what i am doing while reading this group you can thank your software for that if dos had a few more brains it could format floppies etc while you were doing something else the hardware will support it but dos at least won t again this has nothing to do with scsi its a long story but i still use ide on my except for the cdrom which thanks to scsi i can move between both machines if and when scsi is better standardized and supported on the ibm clone machines i plan to completely get rid of ide and if you stick with dos you ll wonder why you can t multitask again i ask why can t a unix or os type os do all the miraculous things with an ide harddrive that it can with a single scsi hard drive
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	pc junior usable my fiance has a pc junior and wants to upgrade to a full does anyone know if we could use the monitor it came with on a new machine i heard it s mcga or ega but not sure which also does it use cards so we can use the drive controller floppy etc thanks for the help bryan bryan welch amateur radio n sfg internet europa vnet ibm com best bwelch scf nmsu edu everything will perish save love and music scots gaelic proverb disclaimer it s all opinion everything so there
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	baud spirit ii modem hi world i want to buy a spirit ii data fax modem made in u s a have anyone heard about it or using it what is it s performance is it stable or not please give me some advice in addition i heard a news from local distributor that a new baud ccitt rom the distributor said it will be the new ccitt standard for this modem will be produced at the end of this year after replaced the old rom by this rom this spirit ii can transfer data at baud without any hardware alternation is this new true and possible would the telephone line really able to transfer at such high speed please give me some advice at last can anyone tell me how to contact with the central dealer quickcomm inc i am not sure whether it in u s a or not please leave me a e mail thank you very much leung from hong kong university
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re where to buy pentium motherboard has anybody bought a pentium motherboard if so or you where i can buy it please send me a e mail thank you in advance pentium processors motherboards are not available to the general public as of yet intel has released them to companies such as gateway and dell to do testing etc it ll be a while mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research and development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet s sdnet bitnet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help with decision i m buying a new system this week to replace my brain dead and could use some feedback on a couple systems i m looking at if anyone is familiar with them the system that looks the most interesting is the budget vlb tower for about delivered it offers vlb mb mb ide a mitsumi cd rom with software bundle media vision sound board ctx ni k cache and the usual drives ports os software since my budget is for a system it seems almost too good to be true which may mean it is too good to be true of course among other things i ve never seen a review of the budget systems or their parent company micro smart or of the motherboard they are using the aetana any feedback would be appreciated in a similar vein the second system i m considering midwest micro s elite vesa tower with a diamond viper mb midwest micro mi monitor is one i ve never seen reviewed anywhere i m familiar with the firm but not the product line and some idea of their quality would be abig benefit here as well any other suggestions in the price range would be appreciated my greatest needs are speed and graphics capabilities email response would be greatly appreciated thanks the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community against his will is to prevent harm to others his own good either physical or moral is not a sufficient warrant john stuart mill rick adams adamsr ais org adamsr norwich bitnet anonymous users may send to ap poly n kbt rain com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes i just bought at quantum for my mac at home i paid for it i haven t seen ide drives cheaper a friend of mine just got a maxtor meg ide drive for that s million bytes or mega bytes with the basic interface he gets close to meg sec transfer on his does your figure include a few hundred for scsi drivers since the mac uses only scsi for hard drives yes the figure includes a hundred for scsi drivers this is sloppy people and dumb but on that point is it faster this is what all this is about do you get more performance for the money ok once again with the scsi spec list scsi with a scsi controler chip synchronous range is indeed mb s asynchronous range is slower at mb s scsi with a scsi controller chip mb s with mb s burst bit note the increase in speed the mac quadra uses this version of scsi so it does exist some pcs use this set up too scsi bit scsi mode mb s with mb s burst for those who want scsi but don t want to pay for the bit or bit hardware or mess with the scsi software controllers usable by scsi devices with close to bit scsi speeds scsi bit wide or fast mode mb s with mb s burst scsi bit wide and fast mb s with mb s burst on the other interfaces let dxb psuvm psu edu speak ide ranges from mb s again synchronous and asynchronous modes with asynchronous much slower range mb s esdi is always mb s although there are some non standard versions one problem is the inconsitant use of the term scsi in articles and by people its proper meaning is the set of scsi interfaces composed of scsi and scsi look at the inconsitant use of scsi in the below quote my comments in pc magazine april although scsi is twice as fast as esdi this is asynchronous scsi with a scsi chip faster than ide this is both asynchronous scsi with a scsi chip and bit scsi to read consitantly the quote should read asynchronous scsi with a scsi chip although asynchronous scsi is twice as fast as esdi one third the speed of ide or asynchronous scsi with a scsi chip or bit scsi although scsi with a scsi chip and bit scsi are eight times as fast as esdi faster than ide note the nonuse of scsi by itself this eliminates ambaguity scsi drivers are somewhat reasonable while bit and bit scsi drivers are very expansive bit scsi can use scsi drivers with little speed degridation the mac quadra does exactly this if we are to continue this thread state clearly which scsi you are talking about scsi or scsi or scsi over all scsi and scsi it does make a difference
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re pc junior usable in article apr sernews raleigh ibm com europa tomcat raleigh ibm com welch bryan writes my fiance has a pc junior and wants to upgrade to a full does anyone know if we could use the monitor it came with on a new machine i heard it s mcga or ega but not sure which also does it use cards so we can use the drive controller floppy etc the only things you ll be able to salvage from the junior are the floppy drives and monitor the floppies are k and the monitor is cga but you will need an adaptor cable to use it the junior does not use standard cards unless you re really strapped for cash you should just junk the thing and buy new stuff dan daniel matthew coleman internet dcoleman ccwf cc utexas edu dcoleman utxvms cc utexas edu the university of texas at austin decnet utxvms dcoleman electrical computer engineering bitnet dcoleman utxvms bitnet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi in article qpu uinnbt dns nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb writes wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes since the mac uses only scsi for hard drives yes the figure includes a hundred for scsi drivers this is sloppy people and dumb what group is this this is not a mac group ok once again with the scsi spec list why the spec list again we are talking scsi on a pc not on a mac or a unix box and we are talking isa bus or possibly eisa or vlb this isin t comp periphs scsi tell me what the performance figures are with a single scsi drive on a pc with an isa or eisa or vlb bus theoretical performance figures are not relevant to this group or this debate i m sure that there are some platforms out there that can handle the megs sec of scsi xyz wide n fast but the pc isin t one of them if we are to continue this thread state clearly which scsi you are talking about scsi or scsi or scsi over all scsi and scsi it does make a difference well maybe if the scsi design people had their act together than maybe all pc s would have built in scsi ports by now
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	network i have heard that there is something called a network that allows two pc s to be networked by joining their serial ports does someone out there know anything about this i would greatly appreciate e mail on this thanks tschewe first etc bc ca wq
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re buslogic b questions in article tigerc k oy gx netcom com tiger netcom com tiger zhao writes goyal utdallas edu mohit k goyal writes can anyone tell me if this card works with the march os beta i believe so since the buslogic cards have proven to be very reliable in os the buslogic cards have an os driver that does work with the march beta support for the buslogic cards is not included with os any longer if you wish to install the beta from the cd rom you will need to rem out the adaptec device drivers as they have a nasty tendency to crash the buslogic cards when os attempts to use them thanks adaptec so you add the buslogic drivers to the config sys on the cd rom boot disk and rem out the adaptec drivers then you install the whole st half of the beta and it won t work ibm nicely copies in the adaptec drivers once again thanks ibm so rem out the adaptec drivers once more and reboot if you have everything in the right order it will work things are pretty smooth through the rest of the installation except os will try to install the adaptec scsi drivers once again at the end so you are off to more rem statements and more fun the bt bk comes with drivers and costs the same as the adaptec cards that do not come with drivers the dos drivers work great this card can easily be configured to work with different sets of i o ports and you can use multiple host adapters in one machine if you get a new card it will also be able to support up to gb drives under dos hope this helps dan dan galpin galpin cats ucsc edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	data path width from to bits but speed less then double in evolution of x data path width has been doubled from to t bits but the speed of data processing has not increased at same rate the question is why what is relationship bettween data path width and data processing speed thanks in advance for the input robert
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	address interliving what is address interliving and memmory modules interliving thanks in advance for the info robert
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re how to search for bad memory chips in article n s b w w c cat uucp david c cat uucp dave writes i came upon this idea i would like to share with everyone to check for bad memory chips create a boot disk with emm himem sys and ramdrive sys in the config autoexec bat boot the pc to create a ram drive as large as possible use a disk repair utility i use ndd run it on the ram drive yes it will run its only a device driver run or so passes they go very quick if your machine fails there is a definate bad memory chip if your machine passes there is a conflict with programs you are loading in memory it s an interesting idea but the worst case data patterns developed to test magnetic media are totally different than the patterns used to detect common faults in memory chips bob nichols at t bell laboratories rnichols ihlpm ih att com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re buslogic b questions beta support for the buslogic cards is not included with os any longer why not this is rather disappointing if you wish to install the beta from the cd rom you will need to rem out the adaptec device drivers as they have a nasty tendency to crash the buslogic cards when os attempts to use them thanks adaptec yep that s cause the latest and presumably all future adaptec drivers look for the string adaptec or something to that effect in the cards bios
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	seagate mb ide jumper question since the losers that sold me the hard disk for my computer are so generous i need the info to set this drive from master to slave any help would be greatly appreciated please reply via e mail incidentally avoid purchasing a computer from acs in endicott ny jeff four out of five electrons prefer holes for their mutual annhiliation needs boycott sierra ignore anybody who purports to be a serious windows user support new makers of hardware and software buy canadian music quit smoking take up running fm synthesis is the cga of audio jks ritvax isc rit edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	simms and sipps mb needed misc entrepreneurs misc wanted pnw forsale uw pc ibm seattle forsale uw forsale misc forsale misc forsale computers d misc forsale computers pc clone misc forsale co omputers other distribution world from yuri atmos washington edu reply to yuri atmos washington edu organization subject simms and sipps mb needed keywords i need simms and sipps mb but price should be around piece i am waiting for an offer yuri yulaev th ave ne seattle wa home work fax internet yuri atmos washington edu uucp uw beaver atmos washington edu yuri
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith write in article qpu uinnbt dns nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb writes wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes since the mac uses only scsi for hard drives yes the figure includes a hundred for scsi drivers this is sloppy people and dumb what group is this this is not a mac group nice of you to delete both your responce and the item that prompted it to whit i just bought at quantum for my mac at home i paid for it i haven t seen ide drives cheaper to which you responded a friend of mine just got a maxtor meg ide drive for that s million bytes or mega bytes with the basic interface he gets close to meg sec transfer on his does your figure include a few hundred for scsi drivers to which i correctly pointed out the following since the mac uses only scsi for hard drives yes the figure includes a hundred for scsi drivers this is sloppy people and dumb as i said this is sloppy and dumb you should resounded by discounting the mac not giving maxtor meg ide drive for example by giving an example you give the implied consent that for mac info to be included in the scsi discusion ok once again with the scsi spec list why the spec list again we are talking scsi on a pc not on a mac or a unix box and we are talking isa bus or possibly eisa or vlb ok i will do this v e r y s l o w l y so you can understand reguardless of whether it is a mac or a pc scsi and scsi are different from each other as is asynchronous and synchronous scsi all of these have different speeds and costs lumping them all together as scsi is dumb and sloppy take again the quote later on as an example of the problem in the pc world the spec list was so that you knew where the numbers were coming from in the article it shows the article is correct in it staments about scsi but not consitant this isin t comp periphs scsi with the way this thread has gone how do you tell tell me what the performance figures are with a single scsi drive on a pc with an isa or eisa or vlb bus already gave them you keep deleting them so here are the specs on everybody again with some added info scsi scsi controler chip asynchronous range mb s synchronous range mb s both common to the pc world difference is mainly in software not hardware scsi scsi controller chip also called scsi bit mb s with mb s burst this is advertised as scsi in byte for the pc and at these speeds not the mac the pc i have not seen the following for either the mac or the pc scsi bit wide or fast mode mb s with mb s burst scsi bit wide and fast mb s with mb s burst on the other interfaces let dxb psuvm psu edu speak ide ranges from mb s asynchronous range mb s infered from byte synchronous range mb s esdi is always mb s although there are some non standard versions wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes theoretical performance figures are not relevant to this group or this debate i m sure that there are some platforms out there that can handle the megs sec of scsi xyz wide n fast but the pc isin t one of them note that i also give the average through put for scsi which holds true a mac or ibm pc clone with the correct hardware and software and since pc adversizements are using theoretical performance figures why cannot we if we are to continue this thread state clearly which scsi you are talking about scsi or scsi or scsi over all scsi and scsi it does make a difference well maybe if the scsi design people had their act together than maybe all pc s would have built in scsi ports by now with pc articles like the following it is obvious that the problem is not with scsi but with the people who report it like you look at the inconsitant use of scsi in the below quote my comments in although scsi is twice as fast as esdi this is asynchronous scsi with a scsi chip faster than ide this is both asynchronous scsi with a scsi chip and bit scsi pc magazine april the article is confused not scsi the term is a mess from inconsitant use not because the interface itself is a mess scsi means the set of scsi interfaces composed of scsi and scsi not scsi as some people want to use it to read consitantly the quote should read asynchronous scsi with a scsi chip although asynchronous scsi is twice as fast as esdi one third the speed of ide or asynchronous scsi with a scsi chip or bit scsi although scsi with a scsi chip and bit scsi are eight times as fast as esdi faster than ide note the nonuse of scsi by itself this eliminates ambaguity if we are to continue this thread state clearly which scsi you are talking about scsi or scsi or scsi over all scsi and scsi lumping everything into scsi as scsi is sloppy wrong and dumb inconsitant scsi and scsi usage is also a problem clean it up now or have a mess like svga was several years ago because everybody and his uncle slapped scsa an their own monitor inteface scsi is standarized unlike svga was years ago except in terminaology
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help my pc freezes perry egelmeers perry wswiop win tue nl wrote ladanyi cs cornell edu la szlo lada nyi writes problem occasionaly the machine freezes at least that s what i thought but recently i discovered that the machine works just the keyboard freezes and the clock drops down from turbo mhz to standard mhz mode perhaps you hit the s control s try q i know it doesn t explain the clock rate drop we had the same problem in our company we changed the keyboard bios and after that everything went fine our dealer told us that some boards of that series have a defect kbd bios michael michael jester gun de michael gerhards preussenstrasse germany neuss voice
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re western digital hd info needed holly ks cs sd ae maccs mcmaster ca wrote my western digital also has three sets of pins on the back i am using it with another hard drive as well and the settings for the jumpers were written right on the circuit board of the wd drive ma sl the jumper is used if the other drive a conner cp xxx no jumper set drive is alone ma drive is master sl drive is slave michael michael jester gun de michael gerhards preussenstrasse germany neuss voice
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re com ports modem mouse conflict really phil hunt phil howtek mv com wrote i m kind of new at the pc stuff my machine has serial ports com and and share same irqs you mean i can t plug a mouse into com and a modem into com and expect both to work no but some os s coherent etc are able to drive one of the ports in polled mode without using the irq in your example after accessing the modem the mouse won t work until you reboot because the irq is used by the modem if answer is no should i change irq s for com ports to be different and does it really matter which irq i set the ports too yes you can change the irq s for com but it depends on your other hardware com uses irq com irq if you have only one printerport irq you can change com to irq normally nd printer for com you can assign irq if its free as far as i know no other irq can be used until your i o card is bit and caould access irq s michael michael jester gun de michael gerhards preussenstrasse germany neuss voice
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	isa bus pin question re diamond speedstar x today i recieved a in warranty replacement for my diamond speedstar x on the card i ve noticed a few changes mostly there is a new jumper labeled jp the card is revision a my detective work has shown that this jumper simply connects disconnects the bale line on the pin part of the isa bus the question i have is simple to those people who own this revision of the speedstar x what does the manual claim that this jumper does to anyone with an isa reference what is the function of the bale line on a related note are there any ftp sites which contain a descriptive reference to the isa bus my motherboard manual has a simple pin to signal name chart but that is it douglas douglas r pokorny drp camelot bradley edu cs major geisert hall resident conveniently located in the bradley university armpit of illinois peoria
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re int h for joysticks is slow in ql i inn uh no names nerdc ufl edu lioness oak circa ufl edu writes i m using int h to read my joystick and it is hideously slow something like of my cpu time is being spent reading the joystick and this is in a program that does nothing but printf and joyread if you only do read print then there is no reason for the joystick stuff not to take of the time even if it is efficient the problem is that a lot of programs trap int h like smartdrv and so it is a slow as hell interface can i read the joystick port in a reasonably safe fashion via polling and that isn t platform or clockspeed specific the truth is that int h joystick reading is slow i read it directly from the hardware port note that doing so exposes you to intermittent disturbance from interrupts so you may want to read say twice in a row and keep the lower results don t just turn interrupts off it may prove detrimental to the health of any high speed comms and other devices here is an example of how to do this joy c an example of how to read pc joystick port by polling the hardware port directly uses inp outp for byte port access will timeout when int count counts up to zero this sample reads one port a is presented and b is in the comments you can read both at once by merging the two but it will time out when either joystick is not connected there is no need to optimize this routine since it runs for as long as the joystick circuitry needs written by eyal lebedinsky eyal ise canberra edu au include stdio h include stdlib h include conio h extern int readjoy int x int y int b int b define joyport x define xjoy x for joystick b use x define yjoy x for joystick b use x define xymask xjoy yjoy define but x for joystick b use x define but x for joystick b use x int returns if ok readjoy int x int y int b int b register int count register char temp joy temp char xymask count outp joyport set trigger do temp joy char inp joyport if temp xjoy x count if temp yjoy y count while count temp joy xymask b joy but b joy but return count this main is for demonstration int main int rc x y b b printf hit any key to exit n while kbhit rc readjoy x y b b printf r d d d d d rc x y b b
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	looking for large mono color vga monitor i am looking for a monitor or larger that could do x with and a card ps i guess i would prefere and mono later becuase of lower price please email me the brand model condition and asking price please include this message for reference s alavi ssa unity ncsu edu h w
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	mitsumi cd rom drivers fix for qemm just to let all you faithful mitsumi cd rom owners ever notice qemm can t load you cd rom driver high ain t it a bitch well you can call up quarterdeck s bbs and get a hold of the new drivers that can be loaded high sorry i don t have their on me i tested them out and the seem to work great small nose loose girls no nipples iczer curls gerard pinzone gpinzone tasha poly edu v join the eca wehrmacht kill cm
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cd speedway any good anybody use cd speedway out there is it as good as they say i hate waiting around for my cd to finish loading the next level in wc and the such how much memory does it eat up small nose loose girls no nipples iczer curls gerard pinzone gpinzone tasha poly edu v join the eca wehrmacht kill cm
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	leading edge computer buy i saw the following computer in a store and wanted to know if this is a good computer or does someone see something wrong with it i also would like to switch the motherboard later when this computer becomes too slow does anyone know if this is possible with a leading edge computer or will it be difficult to find a motherboard that will fit in this computer any help will be greatly appreciated leading edge model pc e intel sx mhz cpu supports intel overdrive clock doubling processors what is this upgradable to dx mb ram upgradable to mb kb internal cache mb mb disk drives mb hard drive x vga video resolution mb video ram colors available bit isa expansion slots one local bus socket bit isa compatible drive bays external one pin centronics type parallel port rs c serial ports pin one pin analog video connector one ps compatible mouse port watt power supply key keyboard and mouse included software includes windows dos microsoft works for windows the store wants without monitor for this is it a good price thanks nicole bell at temple university philly pa e mail address u s astro ocis temple edu prodigy jpkn a if you re not part of the solution you re part of the precipitate steven wright
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	more adaptec b problems okay here is my configuration gateway c micronics isa mb ram wd mb ide hd drive c st a mb ide hd drive d adaptec scsi b controller with scsi bios enabled seagate st n mb scsi drive alrighty when i boot up i get the adaptec bios message but it says something like drive c installed drive d installed adaptec scsi bios not installed and i can t get to the seagate drive i go into phoenixbios setup remove the entry for drive d and boom i can access the seagate is there a way to get two ide drives and the seagate at the same time i have aspi dos sys but it just hangs the system brian
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re booting from b drive glang slee srl ford com gordon lang writes david weisberger djweisbe unix amherst edu wrote i have a drive as drive a how can i make the system boot from my b drive optimally the computer would be able to boot from either a or b checking them in order for a bootable disk but if i have to switch cables around and simply switch the drives so that it can t boot disks that s ok also boot b won t do the trick for me thanks davebo we had the same issue plague us for months on our gateway i finally got tired of it so i permanently interchanged the drives the only reason i didn t do it in the first place was because i had several bootable s and some based install disks which expected the a drive i order all new software and upgrades to be and the number of stupid install programs that can t handle an alternate drive are declining with time the ones i had are now upgraded and as for the bootable s i just cut replacements if switching the drives is not an option you might be able to wire up a drive switch to your computer chasis i haven t tried it but i think it would work as long as it is wired carefully i did this i use a relay radio shack pdt instead of a huge switch this way if the relay breaks my drives will still work it works fine but you may still need to change the cmos before the drive switch will work correctly for some programs rp roger c pao gordius bagdad mts rpao rpao mts mivj ca us
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	jumper settings for microscience hd ok i ll try one more time with this one if anyone out there has any information on microscience hard drives and how to set the jumpers and where they are for master slave configurations i will gladly accept any info as i have a m er sitting in my room collecting dust just waiting for me to install huge applications thanks in advance and yes i regulary check the ide harddisk spec that is posted here adam cheal i y rick cs ubc ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re leading edge computer buy in article apr cronkite ocis temple edu u s astro ocis temple edu cis sec spr writes i saw the following computer in a store and wanted to know if this is a good computer or does someone see something wrong with it i also would like to stuff deleted leading edge model pc e intel sx mhz cpu supports intel overdrive clock doubling processors what is this upgradable to dx mb ram upgradable to mb kb internal cache mb mb disk drives mb hard drive x vga video resolution mb video ram colors available bit isa expansion slots one local bus socket bit isa compatible drive bays external one pin centronics type parallel port rs c serial ports pin one pin analog video connector one ps compatible mouse port watt power supply key keyboard and mouse included software includes windows dos microsoft works for windows the store wants without monitor for this is it a good price thanks i recently bought a leading edge dx mini tower case and everything works fine leading edge seems to be a decent brand and what not i would tend to say that it is a decent deal the only things you might want to be wary about is that my l e computer has a back plane mounted motherboard ie the motherboard itself is a card that can be plugged in to a backplane some people don t like these configurations the second thing is that whoever set up my computer at the factory didn t really know what they were doing the installed windows video driver didn t even take advantage of the svga card monitor look forward to configuring the system optimally yourself anyone have a coat hanger my brain itches impster umcc ais org if i was a turnip would i be revered and charles budensiek worshipped like i would deserve to be ph ask if you want it
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re esdi with ide yes it should be possible in article apr monu cc monash edu au els r fawlty eng monash edu au g chow writes in article qegfd dqi wsinis info win tue nl monty wsinis info win tue nl guido leenders writes hi is it possible to use an esdi controller with hdd together with an ide harddisk controller in one isa system i ve read stuff about secondary controllers does this trick work thanx in advance guido monty win tue nl i have the same question as guido it is possible to use the esdi drive as a master and the ide drive as the slave i can definitily say that you can use an rll as master and ide as slave as i have just upgraded my machine with a mb ide and custom controller mdl ci extended ide controller while maintaining my rll d wren as master drive the trick is the controller which supports up to ide drives while coexisting with existing controllers mfm rll esdi scsi so according to the documentation it should work with esdi and i can assure you it works with rll bruce powell email bss brucep vd seqeb gov au
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re more adaptec b problems lioness maple circa ufl edu wrote okay here is my configuration gateway c micronics isa mb ram wd mb ide hd drive c st a mb ide hd drive d adaptec scsi b controller with scsi bios enabled seagate st n mb scsi drive alrighty when i boot up i get the adaptec bios message but it says something like drive c installed drive d installed adaptec scsi bios not installed and i can t get to the seagate drive i go into phoenixbios setup remove the entry for drive d and boom i can access the seagate is there a way to get two ide drives and the seagate at the same time i have aspi dos sys but it just hangs the system brian there is a simple answer if my memory serves me the scsi bios will only work as the first or second drive any built in drives e g ide are installed first and then when the scsi bios runs it will try to install as the next drive but if there are already two drives then no can do the solution is simple use the aspi dos device driver and disable the scsi bios as it is useless in your case it works like a champ i have seen a similar situation before good luck gordon lang
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re or grayscale displays a quick look through the computer shopper gave the following companies that sell monochrome monitors for less than pc or ps compatible cornerstone technology digital technology hardware that fits ibm ikegami image systems nanao radius ran ger technologies sampo samsung sigma designs most of these are single scan monitors which are useless for most pc users i posted requests for information in other newsgroups which were mostly fruitless but i have managed to track down two multisync grayscal monitors in the range one and one i am still looking into it and i will post the results when i get more info i am looking into a group purchase as well aniel thumim dthumim mit edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	tseng labs video card problem i have a tseng labs video card that gives me problems when i do anything in super vga mode checkit v reports a video page frame address error at page frame what does this mean and how if i can could this be fixed the card says et ax on it thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	parallel port can anybody please help me with information on the use of the bi directional printer port i have successfully used one on a toshiba laptop by enabling bit of port x f and controlling bit of port x a for the direction of data flow ie for output for input the same code does not work on my desktop machine i have heard that i might have to use bit of port x a however this also does not work for a parallel port i am using one of those ide super i o cards and have been running a tape backup unit off it via a parallel to scsi converter so i am pretty sure that the printer port is bi directional any information would be greatly appreasiated please post a reply here or email me on internet rick cabsav vut edu au thanks richard muratti origin custom programming bbs
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ibm ps vs teac fd hello i already tried our national news group without success i tried to replace a friend s original ibm floppy disk in his ps pc with a normal teac drive i already identified the power supply on pins v and v shorted pin switch and inserted pullup resistors k on pins and the computer doesn t complain about a missing fd but the fd s light stays on all the time the drive spins up o k when i insert a disk but i can t access it the teac works fine in a normal pc are there any points i missed thank you volkmar volkmar grote stollmann de
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wanted isa mouse port with high interrupt with a sound card on interrupt two serial ports one for modem on i one for miracle piano on i and a printer port on i i have run out of low interrupts what i would like is a mouse port with an interrupt of or which ever interrupt the ps mouse port uses in in isa i computer i called technical support of microsoft logitech ati checked what interrupts the mouse port on the ati video cards can use and they all said the only interrupts possible on these cards was ones lower than does anyone know of any board for an isa bus which will allow a mouse port or even a serial port with high interrupts loran yourk at t lyourk ihlpm att com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re can t write to floppy in article qndvd jhn usenet ins cwru edu da cleveland freenet edu andy nicola writes in a previous article limagen hpwala wal hp com says ok all you experts need answer quick machine floppy unable to write to a formated disk machine claims that disk is write protected but it is not note it ll read s with no problem please e mail or post if the disk is not an hd type disk i e with the extra hole in the case opposite the normal write protect hole the drive will not write to the disk you can punch a similar hole with whatever is handy or buy a small device a square hole puncher for about see the back pages of computer shopper magazine for it to be brief make the hole any way you can or no writing andy nicola of course you should be able to write a dd kb disk without making any holes stig
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	q compaq configuration help hi all compaq owners a friend of mine has compaq portable iii and he has lost all the manuals and diskettes please help him getting the machine s equipment definition cmos memory configuration right the machine says that some bytes of it are still incorrectly set up it seems that compaq has some bytes defined not like the ibm compatible machines if you have a compaq it certainly has diagnostics diskette with it and this is needed i can t reach quickly any compaq dealers here if it is possible please email documentation or some of its configuration software heikki haldre e mail hhaldre sune stacken kth se or hhaldre park tartu ee
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	alr proveisa if anyone has any experience with the alr proveisa dx system i would be interested to hear your impressions of it and of alr in general thank you mark winqwk b mark seltzer ravina cres toronto ont m j m canada rosemail rosenet usenet gateway rose media
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re wanted isa mouse port with high interrupt lyourk cbnewsc cb att com loran n yourk writes with a sound card on interrupt two serial ports one for modem on i one for miracle piano on i and a printer port on i i have run out of low interrupts what i would like is a mouse port with an interrupt of or which ever interrupt the ps mouse port uses in in isa i computer i called technical support of microsoft logitech ati checked what interrupts the mouse port on the ati video cards can use and they all said the only interrupts possible on these cards was ones lower than does anyone know of any board for an isa bus which will allow a mouse port or even a serial port with high interrupts try putting one of the irqs for your com ports onto irq the hardware will automagically wrap irq to irq on at class machines eg anything with high irqs this is what i m doing on my set up right now i ve got com on irq really irq address it this way in software com on irq soundblaster on irq lpt on irq and my ati busmouse port on one of the interrupts in between works just great if you need even more there s a text file floating around somewhere that details how to hack up any serial card and probably any others to work on the higher irqs it basically involves cutting the trace to the low irq and running a wire over the a high irq pin on the bit expansion bus it will be best to put the modem s com port onto irq this will be the first irq serviced by the system giving the modem a better response especially handy under multitaskers like os which i m running with no problems justin jdolske andy bgsu edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re mb isa limit rpao mts mivj ca us writes in article c j zn mts mivj ca us marka ssd csd harris com mark ashley writes then the writer claims that glitches can occur in systems with over mb because of that limit that part i don t understand because the ram is right on the motherboard so the cpu should have no problems talking with the ram can anybody explain this the floppy is served by dma on the motherboard and original dma controller can t reach more than the first mb the address space of the isa bus joerg
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	mb f d wanted subject says it all please email soon skcgoh tartarus uwa edu au
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	swap boot drive on i have a machine with a a drive and a b drive i want to swap them so drive is a what do i have to do tia david m todd department of psychology university of massachusetts amherst ma usa phone david todd psych umass edu fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wanted advice comments on building a pc in the next few months i am intending to build a or pc system for remote monitoring i would welcome any comments or advice you may have on the choice of motherboard hdds and i o boards recommendations for good companies selling these would be a big help many thanks peter green peter r green tel fax janet prg uk ac mcc nessie internet prg nessie mcc ac uk include std disclaimers
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	q conner hd specs can anybody send conner cp harddisk specifications it has cyl and hd but i am more intrested in its time out values precomp etc heikki haldre internet hhaldre sune stacken kth se
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	hint vlb isa eisa motherboard i am looking at buying some companion brand vlb isa eisa motherboards with hint chipsets has anybody had any experience with this board good or bad any information would be helpful thanks brian schaufenbuel brian j schaufenbuel there is no art which one government sooner learns helser halsted than that of draining money from the pockets of the ames ia people especially college students adam smith
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how to detect mouse at hardware level lo all i am writting a program that checks a computer for its configuration it s going to be run everytime a computer boots up to our campus network actually it already is running it s just not getting all the info i want it to yet anyway i want to check for a mouse i already check for a mouse driver using the code in microsoft s mouse book but there is no guarantee that the driver is loaded when my program runs or that they ever load the driver since i am interested in what hardware is attached to the machine how do i detect is a mouse is attached i know it can be done because the mouse driver can do it thanks in advance andy andy berkvam few are wholly dead u of wisconsin stevens point blow on a dead man s embers cleveland freenet bq and a live flame will start internet aberkvam spu uwsp edu robert graves
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi in article c i fx fc ucdavis edu ez rocky ucdavis edu the great randalli writes can anyone explain in fairly simple terms why if i get os i might need an scsi controler rather than an ide will performance suffer that much for a mb or so drive if i don t have a tape drive or cd rom any help would be appreciated richard randall ez hamlet ucdavis edu there is a way in which a multi tasking computer actually gives you more cpu power then you had before and that is with i o overlap with i o overlap your cpu can continue to think while disk operations are underway whereas without overlap your cpu sits idly waiting for each disk operation to finish and disk operations take an eternity compared to a fast cpu so when you ve got multi tasking you want to increase performance by increasing the amount of overlapping you do one way is with dma or bus mastering either of these make it possible for i o devices to move their data into and out of memory without interrupting the cpu the alternative is for the cpu to move the data there are several scsi interface cards that allow dma and bus mastering ide however is defined by the standard at interface created for the ibm pc at which requires the cpu to move all the data bytes with no dma richard krehbiel richk grebyn com os will do for me until amigados for the comes along
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi in article apr julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes in article qk kvinnndk dns nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb writes point of view why does scsi have an advantage when it comes to multi tasking data is data and it could be anywhere on the drive can scsi find it faster can it get it off the drive and into the computer faster does it have a better cache system i thought scsi was good at managing a data bus when multiple devices are attached if we are only talking about a single drive explain why scsi is inherently faster at managing data from a hard drive the adaptec series use bus mastering this means that the cpu doesn t sit waiting for data bytes it can go off and do other computing if you have an advanced multi tasking os that is dos just sits and waits anyway ide integrated device electronics currently the most common standard and is mainly used for medium sized drives can have more than one hard drive asynchronous transfer mb s max why don t you start with the spec sheet of the isa bus first you can quote scsi specs till you re blue in the face but if they exceed the isa bus capability then what s the point who says ide is limited to megs sec what about vlb ide does anyone know how they perform why don t you start with the spec sheet of the isa bus first ide was designed to plug into isa virtually unaided in essence ide is isa on a ribbon cable therefore it s specs are the same as isa mhz clock bit width mb sec this is why i ve concluded that ide on vl bus is a waste of a fast slot the card s job would to slow the vl bus transactions to isa speed heck that s what isa slots do i ll just use one of those instead richard krehbiel richk grebyn com os will do for me until amigados for the comes along
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi in article qm c on hcx ssd csd harris com marka hcx ssd csd harris com mark ashley writes first off with all these huge software packages and files that they produce ide may no longer be sufficient for me mb limit i ve seen a listing of a seagate g ide hard drive second rumor is microsoft recognizes the the importance of scsi and will support it soon i m just not sure if it s on dos win or nt windows nt already supports scsi a variety of adapters for disk tape and cd rom so does os richard krehbiel richk grebyn com os will do for me until amigados for the comes along
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi in article apr julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes in article wayne uv amtower spacecoast org wayne amtower spacecoast orgx newssoftware grn f by mike schwartz michael b smith writes but i still want to know why it intrinsically better than ide on an isa bus when it comes to multi tasking os s when managing data from a single scsi hard drive a scsi controller that transfers data by dma allows the cpu to request data from the hard drive and continue working while the controller gets the data and moves it to memory ide also uses dma techniques i believe floppy controller also uses dma and most a d boards also use dma dma is no big deal and has nothing to do directly with scsi ide does not do dma this is because it s like te pc at hard disk interface the controller moves a sector to some buffer memory on the controller card then the cpu moves the data from the buffer to main memory where it s needed if ide doesn t work this way then it s not compatible heck if ide used dma then you d hear all kinds of complaints about isa bus systems with more than m ram not working with their ide drives m is the dma addressing limit of the isa bus and if ide did dma there would be trouble btw there are dma enabling signals in the ide cable spec but the last report i heard was that they are never implemented because it would require a different kind of ide adapter and different drivers richard krehbiel richk grebyn com os will do for me until amigados for the comes along
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	nec p printer question i just picked up a second hand color option for the nec p pin dot matrix printer alas there were no installation instructions so i am totally confused on why it won t go in do i have to remove the actaual print head it seems almost to fit but not quite please any info would be most appreciated x x jon chopin udel edu for my cents on eutsch i d pay a dollar x x
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re booting from b drive in article khan nova khan nova gmi edu mohammad razi khan writes glang slee srl ford com gordon lang writes david weisberger djweisbe unix amherst edu wrote i have a drive as drive a how can i make the system boot from my b drive intermediate reply suggesting cable switch deleted i have ami bios i have poked around the bios but haven t tried this but somewhere it says boot a c i would assume that you could probably slip in a b althoug a i haven t tried it and b don t mess with your cmos unless you know what your doing i hate to burst your bubble but you cannot slip in a b to that particular ami bios setting that setting only allows you to set the boot order of the floppy a with respect to the primary hd c i e check a first then c or check c then a gordon lang mohammad r khan khan nova gmi edu after july please send mail to mkhan nyx cs du edu regards paul yee yee nimios eng mcmaster ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	conner mb question what do i need to do to configure this drive as a slave model cp g please reply via e mail thanks jeff four out of five electrons prefer holes for their mutual annhiliation needs boycott sierra ignore anybody who purports to be a serious windows user support new makers of hardware and software buy canadian music quit smoking take up running fm synthesis is the cga of audio jks ritvax isc rit edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re perfect mag mx f monitors in article apr brtph bnr ca adcock bnr ca doug adcock writes i ve been intently following the mag thread while waiting for mine to arrive in the mail there seems to be a lot of complaints about minor alignment problems with the mx f one article contained a comment that the owner called the factory and was told that his screen rotation was within spec that figure for image rotation would seem to be a little high on my nec fg the specs call for no greater than mm well my monitor arrived last night and sure enough it has a very noticable barrel distortion it s not dramatic but it is there and it is especially noticable when the image doesn t fill the entire screen the fact that it is worse on the right side doesn t help matters what i m trying to find out is if these minor imperfections are the norm or are most of their monitors perfect i don t want to send it back and get one with the same or an even worse problem does the factory consider this kind of thing normal and ship their monitors with less than perfect alignment i can t speak for mag innovision but as far as nec is concerned they are adjusted to factory spec before leaving the central usa distribution point ma for the eastern canadian market now here s the key nec knows that the monitors adjustments are very sensitive to shipping over distances with all the bumps rough handling and such and therefore expect and at least in theory require that the local distributor not dealer have it adjusted at the local service centre bull hn information systems in toronto before sale this is the correct and probably only way of having any chance of receiving a perfect monitor the definition of perfect seems to depend on how picky one is in my case quite are other netters just living with these kind of imperfections i for one was not willing to accept what i considered a substandard monitor and after two months of wrangling and direct contact with nec finally received a satisfactorily adjusted monitor not perfect imho but a major improvement over what the dealer and distributor were trying convince me was normal the short answer is no don t accept these imperfections as normal because for the premium one pays for the larger screen monitors one has a right to expect higher quality and if you re persistent you ll receive it comments and opinions are mine not bnr s doug adcock adcock bnr ca bell northern research research triangle park nc regards paul yee yee nimios eng mcmaster ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	upgrading a modem i have an old tandon type modem that s all the info i have apart from the fact that it is black does anyone have any info about this modem or upgrading it reply by e mail please to cdw dcs ed ac uk chris e mail cdw dcs ed ac uk or c walton ed or p cplab ph ed ac uk tel or at weekends write romero place edinburgh eh bj finagle s fourth law once a job is fouled up anything done to improve it only makes it worse chris e mail cdw dcs ed ac uk or c walton ed or p cplab ph ed ac uk tel or at weekends write romero place edinburgh eh bj
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi richk grebyn com richard krehbiel writes stuff about the connection between ide and ida deleated mhz clock bit width mb sec if ide speed come from ida where does the mb s sighted for ide come from scsi is not complex it is just the way the industry uses and talks about it there are three key differences in scsi the controller chip the port and the software that is it let us look as scsi in from this stand point scsi asynchronous and synchronous modes software scsi driver only asynchronous is slower then synchronous mode only mb s vs mb s synchronous speeds can be reached by most scsi divices with a rewrite of the software driver as is the case for the mac quadra scsi bit this is the main source for the confusion this differs from scsi only in the controler chip in most machines in the mac and some pcs this is called fast scsi because it uses scsi ports and software drivers and can produce scsi speeds through scsi inspite of this even in the slower asynchronous mode average speed in asynchronous scsi mode mb s with mb s see in both quadras and higher end pcs synchronous mode just allows a higher burst rate mb s scsi bit two versions wide fast wide scsi requires two things over bit scsi a scsi software driver and a wide scsi port on the machine and the external device fast scsi also requires two things over bit scsi scsi driver software and that the recieving devise support bit fast scsi speed of both is the same mb s with mb s burst scsi bit also know as wide and fast scsi over bit scsi this requires scsi driver software wide scsi port and that the recieving devices also have a bit mode scsi chip as expected this is very expencive speed mb s with mb s bursts as i said simple seven versions of scsi seperated by software the controler chip and the port standarize the software and it drops to only five versions of scsi seperate by only hardware the chip and the port
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	conner cp f info please i am looking for information about this drive switch settings geometry etc conner cp f please reply via e mail many thanks in advance nelson nsl doe carleton ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re pentium in a previous article rrn po cwru edu robert r novitskey says just a qestion for all you pc er s out there will the upcoming pentium systems be compatible with current simms and vlb cards any info would be helpful i would just like to know before i plunk my on new hardware thanks bob well it all depends on the motherboard implimentation i m sure someone will make a vlb motherboard that takes x simms and uses a pentium processor i m also sure that there will be some motherboards that won t
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	beyond k trident and lots more hi i have a few enquiries about pc s and compatibles in general some software others hardware orientated probably the wrong newsgroup as everyone claims anyway does any one happen to have the board jumper details for a trident svga graphics card mb or even what the dip switches do on the end mine already works fine albeit slow and after having blown up a monitor i found out which switch controlled the interlace non interlace facility but i m curious as to why there are dip switches on the card with apparantly little use secondly does anyone know why commodore had to be so crazed in their design of the pc motherboard with respect to the ram ie or k can anyone supply pin details for the expansion ports for a pc or bit or even a sample circuit to cause an irq when a button is pressed yeah i know its a piece of cake i m lazy software wise anyone care to divulge some tips on accessing expanded ram on a pc from a program written in turbo c for instance using farcoreleft and coreleft return only memory available from the base k regardless of combinations of emm etc etc what i want is to be able to use the ram above and beyond the mb boundary i m not certain whether farmalloc new actually uses it anyway but i ll suspect not also what half brained wit created dos so as not to be re entrant as a follow on does anyone have any comments about the use of dos calls to c from within a dos interrupt ie will changing the stack size on entry be of use two articles i ve read on the subject have given conflicting views does anyone have any views on writing direct to screen memory in terms of portability many thanks gotta go bars closing soon cheers ian
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help on hand scanners wanted fellow netters i m in the market for a hand scanner however i don t know anyone who has one i have my eye on two choices dexxa this scanner is available at wal mart for it includes grayworks software and provides dpi and grayscales i think the ocr software catchword is available through mail order for about also mustek gray artist for windows this scanner offers grayscales according to cad graphics and dpi it is available for mail order and comes with perceive ocr and picture publisher le i am also looking at a genius hand scanner b from cad graphics it is basically the same as the mustek scanner except for the resolution dpi and price basically i would like recommendations on which to buy i have heard that logitech makes the best and manufactures dexxa scanners but which one is the best buy would dpi really be helpful output would be no better than hp laserjet iii or canon bj x to x i am leaning toward the mustek because it offers the most features and is in the middle in terms of prices which should i buy if you have a hand scanner please let me know whether or not you would recommend it also if you know of another scanner within the price range under that would be a better deal please e mail me any and all help would be greatly appreciated kevin harter
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re booting from b drive in article apr mcshub dcss mcmaster ca yee nimios eng mcmaster ca paul yee writes in article khan nova khan nova gmi edu mohammad razi khan writes glang slee srl ford com gordon lang writes david weisberger djweisbe unix amherst edu wrote i have a drive as drive a how can i make the system boot from my b drive intermediate reply suggesting cable switch deleted i heard boot b zip could do exactly what you wanted without touching anything check it out with archie h j
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	mitsubishi mr hard drive help i have a new mr mitsubishi hard drive rll or mfm that has been in storage and will not format i suspected that the switch settings may have been moved in the movement of the drive from one place to another does anyone have the switch settings for this drive it has j sw with switches and sw has switches sw is the one that selects the drive number if you have info on this drive or know a number i can call to configure it please please let me know by email it has cyl heads and i think is type thanks in advance chuck browning charles w browning browning galois nscf org university of ga browning moe coe uga edu augusta georgia cbrowni eis calstate edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors mreamy rock concert net michael g reamy support writes and they too said that the nanao t i was the best monitor to get if you had the money but they also said that the mitsubishi diamond pro is the next best choice and that it has superb picture quality this monitor can be had for around has anyone actually seen any of these i am responsible for choosing standard components in my company and as part of my review i got the viewsonic mitsubishi and nanao f is i picked the f i even though it costs more than the other two choices because it has a the best clarity and text is not fuzzy at all the viewsonic is the worst the mitsubishi is much better but the nanao f i blows both of them out of the water i don t understand why the nanao is so much better since one would think that the mitsubishi with it s trinitron tube would be better i can only imagine that the nanao t i must be incredible if it is beter than the f i michael g reamy mreamy rock concert net the light at the end of the tunnel may be an oncoming dragon one of the monitors i reviewed for the june issue of windows magazine was the mitsubishi i also reviewed a new nanao the f iw which has just been released last year for the may issue of windows i reviewed several monitors including the nanao t i there s no question that the nanao monitors are the best available this year just as they were last year the difference between my ranking of the best in windows and the ranking in windows sources is due mainly to a difference in the testing criteria and the scoring i used different tests than they did and i scored differently there s nothing wrong with the mitsubishi and it scored very highly in my tests but it was a few points shy of perfect incidentally one of the things everyone should do when they re reading reviews of any product whether it s monitors or mice is to read the criteria and methodology carefully unless you know how the product testing was done and on what the scores are based you can t possibly know what they really mean just seeing that i rank a monitor differently from windows sources is meaningless without knowing how we did the ranking likewise it s impossible to tell whether a monitor will meet your needs unless you know how we did the testing after all some of what we do may not apply to you likewise some of what we do may apply more closely in one review than in another you can t always tell anything from reading the or so words of commentary we write if you don t also understand the scoring wayne rash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitor with rgb sync to vga scanlonm rimail interlan com michael scanlon writes i don t know if this is an obvious question but can any of the current batch of windows accelerator cards diamond etc be used to drive a monitor which has rgb and horizontal and vertical sync bnc jacks altogether connectors out the back i might be able to get ahold of a raster technologies monitor cheap and i was wondering if it was possible to connect it via an adapter rgb to vga to my gateway would i need different drivers etc thanks mike scanlon please reply to scanlon interlan com you need a monitor cable that has a vga connector on one end and five bnc connectors on the other i bought one from nanao when i bought the nanao monitor i use which also has five bnc connectors check with a computer store that sells good monitors quite a few companies use that setup
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re tape backup question in article apr sol ctr columbia edu jerry msi com jerry shekhel writes hello folks i have an archive xl internal qic tape drive which is pretty comparable to the colorado jumbo since i have two floppy drives in my system i m using a small card not accelerated made by archive to attach my tape drive as a third floppy device the problem although the dos based qicstream software works just fine both the norton and central point backup programs for windows fail unless i switch the machine to non turbo speed i m using a dx eisa since the dos software works it can t be a hardware problem can it has anyone seen similar problems any solutions thanks in advance yeah sounds typical windows makes all sorts of extra demands on hardware and therefore your machine can t keep up with things ever notice how when acessing the floppies in windows everything else slows to a crawl i imagine your backup and evertyhing else that is running fights for cpu time and sometimes the backup program loses be glad i can t even run in medium speed with cp backup on my machine supposedly because i have a scsi machine which places extra demands on the data bus don
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors in article qslfs bm access digex net rash access digex com wayne rash writes i also reviewed a new nanao the f iw which has just been released what s the difference between the f i and the new f iw i m about to buy a gateway system and was going to take the f i upgrade should i get the f iw instead mike yang silicon graphics inc mikey sgi com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re q conner hd specs in aa sune stacken kth se hhaldre stacken kth se heikki haldre writes can anybody send conner cp harddisk specifications it has cyl and hd but i am more intrested in its time out values precomp etc heikki haldre internet hhaldre sune stacken kth se conner peripherals has a number with a touch tone voice response data bank giving all the info if you call directory assisatnce and ask for the phone number of conner peripherals you should get what you need dannyb panix com all the usual disclaimers apply whatever they may be
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	at s need what kinda battery hello i m the proud owner of an ibm at without a battery i know it hooks into jumper j but i need more info so i can replace it what s its voltage any suggestions for replacement where can i get one please respond to grisch uceng uc edu thanks george
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re booting from b drive in c nvvx ns mts mivj ca us rpao mts mivj ca us roger c pao writes much discussion about switching and drives removed another albeit strange option is using a program like ii available via anonymous ftp at many major sites or fdformat also available via anonymous ftp that allows you to format hd disks to meg or hd disks to meg along with many many other formats so you can diskcopy yes the broken messy dos diskcopy the disks onto disks or vice versa i use this techniques with non dos self booting game disks on my old tandy and it works another program named teledisk shareware available on many major bbs s will also make the weird format disks provided you have ii or fdformat installed some disks that won t diskcopy properly can be readily teledisk d into the proper format at least this is a software solution for a hardware bios deficiency eh joseph zbiciak im u c camelot bradley edu disclaimer if you believe any of this check your head nuke the whales
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	rockwell chipset for s any good i have a quick question regarding the rockwell chipset that s come out relatively recently it supports v v bis v group iii fax and so on however i heard there are bugs in the chipset i know someone that has a zoom modem that uses the chipset and he hasn t had a problem what s the word on the chipset is this a rom bug specific to a specific brand using the rockwell or is it the rockwell chipset itself and if it is the rockwell chipset what are the chances that if i buy one of these modems using the rockwell chipset that a the bug will affect me b a rom change will fix compensate for the bug please send responses via email joe zbiciak im u c cegt bradley edu im u c camelot bradley edu joseph zbiciak im u c camelot bradley edu disclaimer if you believe any of this check your head nuke the whales
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re shopping for a new nec monitor well people i can only recomend the non flat screen no hype no nonsense nec ds that i have and plus it has the advantage of not having one of those new flat screen tubes which are oversensitive and fragile and break often this is a heavy duty rugged set for those who insist on well proven reliable technologies jim
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi first off with all these huge software packages and files that they produce ide may no longer be sufficient for me mb limit micropolis seems to have broken this limit they have ide meg and meg hd s available greg greene ggg kepler unh edu mark ashley disclaimer my opinions not harris marka gcx ssd csd harris com the lost los angelino
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re which high performance vlb video card in article apr spartan ac brocku ca tmc spartan ac brocku ca tim ciceran writes pc magazine just did another review of high end graphics accelerators for all around performance windows dos cad go for ati graphics ultra pro they ve done two reviews in the last three months and that card ranks as an editors choice in both reviews for all around performance it seems it just can t be beat you should pick up this issue of pc mag april and check it out for yourself windows the recent reviews have all shown that the p cards are significantly faster doing windows than the ati card vga the recent reviews have all shown that the p cards they looked at are significantly slower doing vga than the ati card about the speed as i recall the big question for me is the orchid v card each of the p cards tested so far has had the w to do vga orchid is the only one i know about i don t know about ami that uses the w for vga that is reportedly faster i would like to know whether the orchid card can do vga as fast as the ati card if so it would appear to be a formidable competitor advertised prices are about the same for the two cards someone in this group posted a little while back that they were getting an orchid v card has that card arrived what do the benchmarks look like also is the ami p based card real what does it use for vga speed bob
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re adaptec acb what is it wright lims lerc nasa gov ted wright writes an adaptec acb rev b disk controller has come into my hands with no documentation is this an esdi controller mfm rll something else the bios on it is dated if that is any help i think it is an esdi controller if you need the doco i can help you stefan stefan reck inet sreck rebox in berlin de berlin germany that s all
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway telepath modem getting v bis i have had a gateway telepath modem for about a month or so now actually i had one that wouldn t connect to anything no matter what software i used so i got a new one sent to me this allows me to connect to my favorite news system with zero problems so i m somewhat happier but i still cannot connect to my favorite dos bbs with any kind of reliability i have success about calls not good i would hope that the fact that this one can connect to at least one of my fave places means i just need to adjust it what i usually get is a fast stream of garbage in the modem response line on the dial window sometimes it will drop to full screen mode first then i get about screens of garbage in both cases the modem seems to time out before connecting and drops carrier i am using default settings at f and getting this problem i am using the autoconfigure settings that gateway has supplied with my copy of qmodem atw c d s w and getting this problem they have refused to help me beyond this claiming it must be the bbs or something like that not so my work modem connects to this same place just fine using factory settings a microcom anyone have any ideas next a waco update an ohio prison update a bosnia update a russian update an abortion update and a congressional update here on snn the standoff news network all news all standoff all day daniel a hartung dhartung chinet chinet com ask me about rotaract
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re which high performance vlb video card in article hcbfp e zola esd sgi com blean rwb esd sgi com bob blean writes someone in this group posted a little while back that they were getting an orchid v card has that card arrived what do the benchmarks look like the one i got only does about kb s in text and x vga mcga mode which is almost identical to the other w based cards ati does about kb s this is weird since the orchid supposedly should be much faster and i was told by someone that it can do almost kb s since the vga chip is covered by the orchid label i can t really tell for sure if it uses a chip but the spec sheet that comes with the board no docs did say it has meg dram and uses a chip winmarks is about mil slower than a viper vs using standard palette btw if anyone is insterested i m trying to sell a diamond viper megs vram for a friend for email if interested i m too broke to take it myself also is the ami p based card real what does it use for vga speed i think it s available in limited quantites no idea of what vga chip it uses though be very careful with oem p boards though the orchid i got for example only has a readme file on disk that serve as documentation and conflicts the hell with my vlb controller card or maybe it s my motherboard an a i r vlb stephen lau elec engineering univ of hawaii using a friend s account while waiting for my new grad account death to fm synthesis go gus
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	some more info about p board one more thing to add the orchid board vesa bios is only able to handle the meg dram on board the viper however can utilize the meg vram on board to support vesa modes such as x x x x mil and x x under dos stephen lau elec engineering univ of hawaii don t have my own account until grad school starts autumn death to fm synthesis go gus
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need info on ps mouse port would someone please email me the pinout for a ps pin mini din mouse port i m trying to make an adapter for a serial mouse and the dealer who knows what adapter works with the mouse i bought doesn t have it in stock i have several different adapters but none of them make sense based on what sketchy information i have about the port they have connections to reserved pins bob nichols at t bell laboratories rnichols ihlpm ih att com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors in article c geh n d utdallas edu goyal utdallas edu mohit k goyal writes oh yeah i just read in another newsgroup that the t i uses a high quality trinitron tube than is in most monitors the sony s for example and this is where the extra cost comes from it is also where the high bandwidth comes from and the fantastic image and the large image size etc etc i agree that the image is as sharp as it gets with these sony tubes however in the monitors using these tubes the annoying black lines on the top and bottom quarters of the tube which are created due to the wires holding up the invar shadow mask are quite annoying after a while that is the only thing that is making me lean more in favor of the nec fg or now also available the nec fge only difference no accucolor any experiences or opinions from people who have used the nec fg would be appreciated since i want to get one right after my exams are all done ie about a week from now tony tony gerardis mcgill university computer science prefered account the sun is the same in a relative way gerardis cs mcgill ca but you re older however also available and shorter of breath and one day tgerardi nyx cs du edu closer to death floyd gerardis musocs bitnet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	quantum at is my cache working the quantum lps at is supposed to have a k cache on the ide controller built into the card yet when i do a dos dir command on my system the disk is always accessed i can hear the mechanical movement of the heads why is this happening strangely even when i have smartdrive installed every dir command accesses the disk did i somehow de activate the cache this is happening on each of two machines with an lps at drive will estes internet westes netcom com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	custom keys i am looking for a company that can make custom keys for instance we need a key that says help main menu etc which we are going to use instead of f f f etc can anyone point me to a company that does this also do you have to have a special keyboard or can i just pop off the old keys and pop in the new ones thanks for the help jeff swartz
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors in article c pisw kq cs mcgill ca gerardis cs mcgill ca the gif emporium writes stuff deleted a while that is the only thing that is making me lean more in favor of the nec fg or now also available the nec fge only difference no accucolor any experiences or opinions from people who have used not only do you lose accucolor you also had to give up x non interlaced mode the wider mhz bandwidth and the mac and bnc inputs of the fg personally i am not bothered at all by the two lines in trinitron tube tony gerardis mcgill university computer science stephen lau elec engineering univ of hawaii don t have my own account until grad school starts autumn death to fm synthesis go gus
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re rockwell chipset for s any good in article im u c camelot im u c camelot bradley edu joe zbiciak writes what s the word on the chipset is this a rom bug specific to a specific brand using the rockwell or is it the rockwell chipset itself there were an assortment of firmware problems but that is pretty much expected with any fax modem talking with a different fax or modem which may have also been revised or is new i m pretty much oblivious to any current firmware problems so you ll have to get it from someone else however i can tell you to stay clear of any board which uses the rockwell mpu as opposed to the dpu for an internal implementation this is because the mpu used speed buffering instead of having a interface without the interface the number of interrupts are still the same and thus may get dropped under multitasking conditions like in windows as far as i know the speed buffering works ok for external modems if a is used on the internal serial port board hope this helps tom tom barrett tdbear sr engineer tom barrett amd com v amd pcd ms e ben white austin tx f don t take no take hold don t leave it to chance tasmin archer my views are my own and may not be the same as the company of origin
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors the mitsubishi i also reviewed a new nanao the f iw which has just been released last year for the may issue of windows i reviewed do you have the specs for this monitor what have they changed from the f i do you know if their is going to be a new t i soon a t iw thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re cache or micronics eisa vlb motherboard from article apr news cs indiana edu by mohammad al ansari alansari mango ucs indiana edu clip i am in the process of purchasing an eisa vl bus dx computer clip the first is ares and they use a cache motherboard that s the brand of the motherboard with opti chip set the other is micron formerly edge technology and they use the micronics eisa vlb motherboard clip i would really appreciate any input on this is the micron machine the clear choice does anyone know anything positive or negative about either company has anyone ever heard of cache motherboards should i go with micron just because it has the micronics motherboard etc thanks very much in advance for any information mohammad al ansari get back to your vendors or better yet the board manufactures and get some more info where made norton indexes yeah i know bms suck but whats a mother to do number of slots and types esia and bit any ide or scsi on board how easy to upgrade ram location and of pins overdrive oscilator kits does it have a uart who s bios these might make you feel better about either system but i must agree that ares with days of hr tech and year warranty is encouraging terry clark tclark umaxc uiowa edu you want an opinion you don t pay me enough for an opinion
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	know anything about eisa i read about the development of eisa some time ago but dismissed it in light of the intense interest in vesa and pci however i recently was disheartened to hear that isa cannot address more than mb of ram a limit that too many of us will hit all too soon i recall that eisa will support bit transfer among other enhancements is there such a standard being developed bing ho bing zinc cchem berkeley edu university of california at berkeley
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi in article richk apr gozer grebyn com richk grebyn com richard krehbiel writes can anyone explain in fairly simple terms why if i get os i might need an scsi controler rather than an ide will performance suffer that much for a mb or so drive if i don t have a tape drive or cd rom any help would be appreciated so when you ve got multi tasking you want to increase performance by increasing the amount of overlapping you do one way is with dma or bus mastering either of these make it possible for i o devices to move their data into and out of memory without interrupting the cpu the alternative is for the cpu to move the data there are several scsi interface cards that allow dma and bus mastering how do you do bus mastering on the isa bus ide however is defined by the standard at interface created for the ibm pc at which requires the cpu to move all the data bytes with no dma if we re talking isa at bus here then you can only have dma channel active at any one time presumably transferring data from a single device so even though you can have at least devices on a scsi bus explain how all of those devices can to dma transfers through a single scsi card to the isa at bus at the same time also i m still trying to track down a copy of ibm s at reference book but from their pc technical manual page the fdd adapter is buffered on the i o bus and uses the system board direct memory access dma for record data transfers i expect to see something similar for the pc at hdd adapter so the lowly low density original pc fdd card used dma and the pc at hdd controller doesn t that makes real sense
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi in article apr grebyn com richk grebyn com richard krehbiel writes heck if ide used dma then you d hear all kinds of complaints about isa bus systems with more than m ram not working with their ide drives m is the dma addressing limit of the isa bus and if ide did dma there would be trouble there would be no problems as long as the os didn t set up a dma transfer to an area above the mb area the dma controller probably can t be programmed that way anyways so there probably isin t a problem with this besides like i said before the fdd controller uses dma channel and i don t yet believe that the hdd controllers any of them mfm rll etc don t also use dma
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re where to find comm ports with irqs other than and hamilton romulus ehs uiuc edu wayne hamilton writes a friend of mine recently got such a serial card i ll have to ask him to verify the details but as i recall he paid it s made by stb it has or was it ports and it supports the at irqs in addition to the convention ones i m sure of the last because he had trouble finding comm software that would allow him to override the standard irq assignments unfortunately there a lot of such software i also find it to be the case that the majority of the software that is bad in this regard is commercial software way too many commercial packages are very poorly written but then most of the programs in ms dos are crap such as the print command tsr that locks up your system for long periods of time when the printer is full instead of trying every clock tick back to comm software i find success with telix my com at e works ok on telix phil howard pdh netcom com ka wgn spell protection a right wing conservative capitalists are out to separate you from your money left wing liberal do gooders are out to separate you from everything else
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	scan rate vs font size this past winter i found myself spending a ridiculous amout of time in front of my computer since my eyes were going berserk i decided to shell out some serious money to upgrade from a to a monitor i m running x at hz my eyes are very grateful however i find myself using a smaller font with less eye strain has anyone else had this kind of experience i thought that small fonts were the culprit but it seems that flicker was my real problem any comments alec lee alee cs du edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re know anything about eisa in article qt nk o agate berkeley edu bing zinc cchem berkeley edu bing ho writes i read about the development of eisa some time ago but dismissed it in light of the intense interest in vesa and pci however i recently was disheartened to hear that isa cannot address more than mb of ram a limit that too many of us will hit all too soon i recall that eisa will support bit transfer among other enhancements is there such a standard being developed very possibly but if it s still going to be backwards compatible with the isa bus it s going to be the same tripe that the current eisa implementation really is from what i ve seen the pci bus will just be a new bit mhz intelligent bus ie bus controller takes care of interrupts and the like not jumpers hopefully it ll get somewhere up there with the amiga zorro iii bus vl bus is a bit too much of a hack for my liking toodlepip marc em
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	upgrade from to help needed greetings please forgive me if this is faq if there is source on this kind of info please let me know i just got a station around in dimension and i am thinking about upgrade it to a or the station has a power supply two floppy disk drives and the big case i have sony monitor syquest drive mac and maybe a cd rom reader mac for it here are the questions i have so far is there a motherboard at this dimension that i could use the case the original owener has the controller for floppy drive and hard disk removed can i use them to control these devices under how much do i have to pay for a new controllers if the old ones won t work how can i make syquest scsi and cd rom scsi work on this station i heard that there is a cheap sound board that has scsi controller built in what s quality of this board how much usually does a scsi control cost is there any ftp sites that has syquest driver or cd rom driver for the pc if i can have everything hooked up ok what i want is a motherboard a sound board to make it a mpc quality station how much would it cost to do that is it worth the hussle than just buy a new station btw i need to buy a keyboard for it too any input is welcome thank you peter liu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re date is stuck in article apr kosman uucp kevin kosman uucp kevin o gorman writes anybody seen the date get stuck i m running ms dos with a menu system alive all the time the machine is left running all the time suddenly the date no longer rolls over the time is reasonably accurate allways but we have to change the date by hand every morning this involves exiting the menu system to get to dos anyone have the slightest idea why this should be even a clue as to whether the hardware battery cmos or dos is broken i bet it suddenly started sticking when you started leaving the pc running the menu all night there is a limitation bug in the date roll over software in pc s that means you have to be doing something like waiting for keyboard input via a dos call rather than a bios call as menus often use otherwise the code to update the date after midnight never gets called somebody might be able to correct the details in case i ve mis rememberred them but i think you have to change the menu program if you have the sources or add a tsr or system patch or something as far as i know the cmos clock keeps the right time in fact about seconds day better than dos s clock mark aitchison university of canterbury
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	netware server a and sft netware level ii v a serialisation facts a netware server a was roughly moved to a new location and left powered down for three months from memory it has an mb hard drive manuals and original disks are for sft netware level ii v a when powered up the cmos was wiped a technician examined it and pronounced the disk drive unusable my investigations indicate that drive c is a type cylinders sides when cmos set this way compsurf runs happily with bad blocks i use prepare to hotfix the one internal drive install will proceed successfully but when i try to boot the server it reports that the software is not serialised for this hardware internal examination indicates that the keycard is present and there is one disk drive or at least one large single unit attempts to configure a second drive in cmos result in drive not ready errors questions the software is netware level ii and i can see burnt on to the screen sft netware level ii v a however to configure netware for level ii mirrored or duplexed disks requires a second disk yes so how is the novell server a normally configured can i install sft netware level ii v a as level i or is this what is causing my serialisation error is the novell server a normally equipped with two hard drives one of which has failed would this mean i can not install the network software because it will not be serialised for this hardware with a failed drive what else can cause a serialisation error what happens if the keycard fails am i doing something wrong can someone knowledgeable offer some comments and guides thanks for your time apology i appreciate that i have posted this request somewhat widely as i m dealing with somewhat archaic hardware and software i m hoping that by casting my net further i m more likely to capture someone who has met this system before i believe i can justify the groups to which i am posting please feel free to correct me if you feel this is an inappropriate place to post this this posting is definitive bljeghbe chugh vaj blhegh wayne mcdougall keeper of the list of shows better than star trek tm ask me about the auckland festival of missions april i always change my mind when new evidence is available what method do you use
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	problem with printer and emm exe i recently decided to try using emm exe for a memory manager and when i tried to print to my printer in lpt from word i wouldn t work it would send the linefeeds for the top margin and then the printer ready light would go off and stop working i disabled emm exe and the problem went away i would like to continue using emm exe if possible i would greatly appreciate any comments or suggestions please send them to arthur u washingt arthur u washington edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi how do you do bus mastering on the isa bus by initiating a dma xfer seriously busmastering adapter have their own dma ability they don t use the motherboards on board dma which is much slower isa has no bus arbitration so if two busmastering cards in isa system try to do dma xfers on the same dma channel the system will lock or crash i forget their are dma channels in an isa system are bit are bit the system uses dma a soundblaster uses dma i could buy a busmastering xga video card a busmastering scsi ha in order for them to work properly i would have to find out what dma channel the xga card uses and then simply configure the scsi ha to use a different dma channel for its dma xfers i don t know if multiple dma xfers can go on at the same time on isa i m not sure if they can on eisa systems either i do know that on eisa mca systems you can allow bm cards to use the same dma channel thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re soundblaster irq and port settings they don t have a conflict because technically lpt does not use irq the parallel printer processor the actual number escapes me contains a printer control register which enables the chip to transmit an interrupt to the interrupt controller as irq then onto the main processor as int x f by default the parallel printer processor does not enable it s interrupt line therefore no int x f s will be sourced from the printer controller chip thus enabling other devices to use the actual irq note this applies to com ports also which by default do not route interrupts to the system bus although com s software usually enable this feature as it make monitoring com port activity easier than polling the serial uart thus probably getting the sound card slighty confused windows may be a different story
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	modems and noisy lines hi i just got a problem i have a cheapo bps modem which i use to connect to my university but i get too much garbage on the screen i do know it s because the noise in the line i can actually hear it so my question is will an error correction protocol help to eliminate this garbage my modem doesn t have any of these on hardware can a software implemented protocol do the trick thanks juan carlos leon jleon scf usc edu jcleon ucs usc edu electrical computer major university computing services university of southern california los angeles ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re date is stuck i can t imagine why someone would leave their computer on all of the time to start with its like leaving your lights tv radio and everything in the house on all of the time to me nuts gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help tonight determine this mhz chip did it ever accrue to you to just call intel s number and ask gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors i would realy like to hear from someone that has one of these nanao t i monitors that is driving it with a diamond speedstar x with the x set up to run at its khz hz output mode and realy driving the hell out of the monitor just woundering if the nanao t i would fall apart with poor low capabilities like my sony s did with the x driving their balls off sam gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re perfect mag mx f monitors article is last from r h tamuts tamu edu rithea hong newsgroups comp sys ibm pc hardware subject re perfect mag mx f monitors date sat apr a friend of mine got a mag of the above model and it had some distrotion so he sent it back unfortunately the replacement also was distorted i would bet it s a common problem the best advice i ve heard when buying monnitors is to actually look at the specific one you will buy as opposed to model since monitor manufacturing even from big names still tends to produce alot of monitors with visible defects rithea hong r h tamuts tamu edu end of file press return to quit just to name two at the top of my list of crap monitor makers are sony magnavox sam gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	multiport com boards info needed what or more com port boards are available for pcs we want standard com ports so no need to mention the expensive coprocessed ones they should either be able to share irqs or be able to use irqs thanks for any info
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re isa bus pin question re diamond speedstar x the jp on the speedstar x is for those systems with boot up problems if your system fails to boot up proprtly please pull off the jumper block from jp this will not affect the proformance of the speedstar x this is what my manual says about jp i never knew that it was there but the card is a real ask kicker in my book it beats the hell out of my junk sony s to the point that i can t even use above x mode much sam some times an upgrage turns out to be a big overkill like driving a sony with a x that the monitor can t handle or installing ns simms and then finding out that your mother board doesn t have a cmos wait state adjustment to take advantage of the new ns simms that you just bought gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	philips monitor does anybody have an opinion on the philips dt monitor how does it compare to the nanao i am looking for a good like many other net ers and found a good price for the philips here some the specs sony trinitron tube digital micro control x ni dp x mm display area to hz refresh anti glare mpr ii auto scan khz why don t i ever see this monitor for sale one company in apr computer shopper what is the dc what is the best price around for this and how bout that mag i love my mag except for that little color alignment thing on the l r edges brian schaufenbuel brian j schaufenbuel there is no art which one government sooner learns helser halsted than that of draining money from the pockets of the ames ia people especially college students adam smith
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wangtek tape controller card revision e address irq wanted i have a wangtek tape controller card revision e that was used with the sytos backup system to take backups of a friend s system that system has crashed and i m attempting to restore it unfortunately the documentation for this ancient card has been lost in the mists of time and i need to know the dma irq and address for this card can anyone suggest how i could determine these things there is a bank of dip switches on the card which are set to upupup upupup upup upup open thanks for your time this posting is definitive bljeghbe chugh vaj blhegh wayne mcdougall keeper of the list of shows better than star trek tm ask me about the auckland festival of missions april i always change my mind when new evidence is available what method do you use
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	sound blasters in machine is it possible to have sound blasters in machine would give your the equivalent of a sb pro but with stereo digitized sound the way creative labs price pro s in oz the price is equal i suppose you could set the i o addresses to and h but what about the dma channels any way what is this dma channel sharing hype does it share the sb and hardisk dma channels or something more esoteric
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re date is stuck bsardis netcom com barry sardis writes kevin kosman uucp kevin o gorman writes anybody seen the date get stuck i m running ms dos with a menu system alive all the time the machine is left running all the time suddenly the date no longer rolls over the time is reasonably accurate allways but we have to change the date by hand every morning this involves exiting the menu system to get to dos i ve started to notice the same thing myself i m running dos and win so i can fix it from the windows control panel at times it is the date at others the clock seems to be running several minutes behind where it should be did i once hear that in order for the date to advance something like a clock has to make a get date system call apparently the clock hardware interrupt and bios don t do this date advance automatically the get date call notices that a midnight reset flag has been set and then then advances the date anybody with more info john bongiovanni systems analyst orbital engine company perth australia oecjtb oec orbital dialix oz au bongo alumni caltech edu opinions expressed are my own and not those of my organisation
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	trident switch settings someone archive this t dip txt jeffrey e hundstad j gum vax mankato msus edu switch settings on the trident c xx xx xx j j xx vga graphics adapter layout dram j j j vga graphics adapter layout dram j j j j vga graphics adapter layout dram dip switches db connector for analog monitors db connector for ttl monitors note jumers j j j j j for layouts and j for layout video bios basic input ouput system tvga chip vga graphics chip edge connector for ibm pc xt pc at and compatible systems video dram up to mb feature connector for special applications video dac jumper blocks jp and jp board only note hardware option feature not present for all board versions switch settings for the switch dip box from figures switch scan rate on less than khz default off khz switch fast and slow address decode off fast address decode default on slow address decode switch bit data path off bit data path default on bit data path jumper settings j settings for irq xxx xxx off def on j settings for bus size detections x x x x autodetect standard interface def j settings for dram configuration two dram four dram eight dram j dram clock select xxx xxx mhz mhz two dram dram sw sw swich setings sw sw vga mode default on on ega mode off on cga mode on off mda hercules mode off off
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	possible faq question about a uart organization compact solutions canberra act australia hello my question is could someone e mail me the names of manufactures of the and predecsor uarts i have only seen national semiconductor are one that i know of cheers ben ben elliston bachelor of engineering computer engineering university of canberra email tp jarrah canberra edu au also ellib cbr cpsg com au uucp uunet munnari sserve adfa oz au compsol root fidonet if a train station is where the train stops what s a workstation origin compact solutions canberra act australia
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	w tseng card other vlb cards please hai in a few days i m going to buy a new motherboard with local bus ses it comes with a cirrus logic vlb card which has mb ram onboard it can do true color but i don t know what type of card it is i read that cirrus logic cards aren t exactly the fastes around my old system had a tseng i was pretty pleased with it so i consider buying a w tseng card i d like to know a few things how is the speed performance in dos windows unix os graphics text also compared to s cards for example what resolutions including no of colors does it support text graphics how many ram can be installed and what type of ram compatibility with old tseng support in software if anyone has any experience with this card good or bad i d like to know if you have a better alternative than the w please tell me about it for the people in holland kan iemand me misschien vertellen waar de w in nederland te verkrijg is het liefst in de omgeving van amsterdam thanks in advance erik stel estel cs vu nl
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help with internet i know this isn t the exact right place to put this but im desperate i ll be going home for the summer and wont have direct access to my vax account my problem is i need a service that doesn t charge body parts vital organs or my first born son that allows me access to the internet all i really need is to be able to telnet to my school account and from there i can do anything i need to do any help will be greatly appreciated please e mail to dfmorgan acs harding edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re date is stuck in article qte kn usenet ins cwru edu ab cleveland freenet edu sam latonia writes i can t imagine why someone would leave their computer on all of the time to start with its like leaving your lights tv radio and everything in the house on all of the time to me nuts computers are a special case and it s a pretty good idea to leave them on cuz everytime you turn on a computer you re putting a surge of electricity through its delicate components imagine you re turning on your computer or more times a day you re increasing the chances of damaging the chips memory etc on all the components of your computer so you may save a few cents here and there in electricity bills but it won t look like much when it come time to fix your computer my worth n ngo
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re digitizing tablet questions rithea hong r h tamuts tamu edu wrote i m in the market for all small x or so digitizing tablet and would like any comments the main names i see are calcomp summagraphics and kurta what are the major differences any particular preference also what should i look for and what should i avoid thanks for any input you can provide rithea hong r h tamuts tamu edu ville v walveranta tel fax linda ave apt from finland oakland ca faxes automatically recognized usa email wil shell portal com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	my computer gets locked help a weird thing has happened to my computer lately it gets locked stops doing anything at any instance without any reason whatsover i might be using edit and gets locked or i might be at the prompt at the same occurs it happens almost once every times i connect the computer does anyone have the slight idea what s wrong with it if i try to use ctrl alt del after that no response i have to turn it off and back on again thanks any help will be really appreciated e mail if possible as sometimes i can t access this service enrique
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	scsi on dos hello netters i have a question concerning scsi on dos i have a st scsi controller and two hard disks conected id s and i d like to connect a scsi streamer but i don t have software to access it does such a beast exist as shareware or pd also what if i want a third disk i know that dos only can see two two physical and four logical disks will it be possible to use extra disks thanks in advance ib ib hojme euromax dansk data elektronik a s vejle branch denmark telephone int fax int e mail ibh dde dk
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi why vlb busmastering slows your system in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu smace nyx cs du edu scott mace writes have you ever seen what happens when you hook a busmaster controller to a vesa local bus it actually slows down your system if you don t belive what i said about busmastering and vlbus then pick up a back issue of pc week in whihc they tested vlbus eisa and isa busmastering cards is vlb busmastering bad because it stops the processor fetching from external cache as well as main memory while the vlb card has the bus how significant is the slowing effect
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cr rom drive recommendation hi all i would like to purchase cd rom drive the specs i would like to have is applicable to kodak multisession photo cd scsi interface compatible with adaptec b does not need any caddies cheaper if possible double speeded i believe there are no drives satisfying all of the above condition so i would like to know all of your opinion the above conditions are sorted by my priority i think nec cdr is a little bit expensive but it does satisfy almost all of the above conditions the problem is that i do not know the compatibility with b has someone succeeded to connect these nec drives to b i have heard a rumor that nec drive is incompatible with b adapter any suggestions are greatly appreciated thanks in advance kobayashi masaoki masaoki tky hp com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	faq on cyrix dlc reply to apoylis inode com is there a faq on cyrix dlc if i missed it could anyone please repost or email it to me thanks in advance alexander poylisher internet apoylis inode com fidonet blue wave qwk v
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	atari mono and vga have anybody succeded in converting a atari monomchrome monitor into a mono vga monitor if so please let me know exactly how you did and what graphics card you used thanx l l max brante m max tdb uu se l l l l l l l l l l institutionen f r teknisk databehandling l l l l l l uppsala universitet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re western digital hd info needed in article jester gun de michael jester gun de michael gerhards writes holly ks cs sd ae maccs mcmaster ca wrote my western digital also has three sets of pins on the back i am using it with another hard drive as well and the settings for the jumpers were written right on the circuit board of the wd drive ma sl the jumper is used if the other drive a conner cp xxx no jumper set drive is alone ma drive is master sl drive is slave yo yo yo the western digital hd will hve it marked either s m a put jumper on the s its printed on the circuitry underkneth it hope i helped i had the same problem bye later daze oharad wanda waiariki ac nz michael michael jester gun de michael gerhards preussenstrasse germany neuss voice
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re weitek p future plans in article apr jetsun weitek com robert weitek com robert plamondon writes in article q n pinn m uniko uni koblenz de hodgen ozzy uni koblenz de wayne hodgen writes to sum up when an accelerated board with mb vram true colour x and a fast vga side is available under i will buy one me too what s funny is when we really can buy such a product it probably won t seem as mouth watering as it does today what no holograms get outta here i can wait cos i ve already got an accelerated card it does x but only colour you may mock me but such cards will be here quickly enough one of the odd things about the computer industry is that since you can always wait and get something better some people wait forever i know people who have deferred updating their original ibm pc for a decade because every time they look at what s available they see something better coming down the road i know people who ve dumped their pcs into the garage but haven t replaced them because they re afraid it isn t the right time to buy they just gave up using computers i only wait when the difference between my current system and the new stuff is big enough to warrant changing for instance i ll be upgrading my to a dx eisa vlb board rsn the performance difference under linux is great enough to be worthwhile at the same time i ll be buying a new graphic card and new scsi controller i ll be buying an s card cos they re fast enough i have x drivers for them and it ll have mb vram just like a weitek card it will also be much cheaper when affordable mb cards arrive i ll buy one personally my system at home needs a new disk subsystem a much larger monitor a super fast graphics board by you know who a new cpu board i probably won t keep much more than the case and the mouse come to think of it i don t like that mouse very much so when will i buy when my dream products hit the market no way i m gonna buy as soon as i have the money over the last year i ve done much the same but now i need a monitor more memory mb just ain t enough a gb disk gb and no space left oh well stay single don t smoke and you may afford it this year wayne hodgen hodgen infko uni koblenz de opinions c me intel sx uni koblenz unido infko hodgen keeper of the scrolls just rheinau voice defender of the net say koblenz fax his name is root no
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re cards on a card motherboard carl christensen christen astro ocis temple edu wrote this may be the dumbest question of the year but is there a way to piggyback or expand a slot motherboard all bit to get the usual my case has slots for and i d like to get a scanner but with all my other cards i m already max d out i m hoping that a simple solution exists e g an adapter that turns i m not sure if this will work but how about using one of those t expanders used in the low profile cases they allow slots staggered on either side of the card you can install it in the last slot and then probably have or sideways slots this is actually how it is done in the low profile cases a standard motherboard the t connector in one slot and the expansion cards plugged into the t i guess you could do this at each end of the slots to add even more the t connectors are simply tracks with slots on them no electronics on it the only downside your case won t close but for a homebrew system that may not be a problem don t know about performance though i ll leave that discussion to the engineers gerry george anything good in life is either school of management boston univ illegal immoral or fattening internet ggeorge acs bu edu any item not in the above three compu erve compuserve com categories causes cancer in rats
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	partition table disappeared help my computer won t recognise my disk after a reboot windows crash grrr are there any options to restore everything without losing data the drive previously had partitions but i do not remember the exact settings i have copies of the boot data from the disk pc tools rescue disk i do not want to lose my data mb ide drive do i have any options gerry george anything good in life is either school of management boston univ illegal immoral or fattening internet ggeorge acs bu edu any item not in the above three compu erve compuserve com categories causes cancer in rats
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	small pc i m looking for a pc that is small and doesn t break apart if you drop it on the groud it doesn t have to have graphics text only will do just fine it doesn t have to be fast either will do i hope but you must stand a pretty hard enviroment without breaking apart jumnping on it or trying to use it outdoor while it is raining and so forth i need kb of memory and a convinient way of loading applications into it that i wrote myself floppy or somekind of writeable cartridge is there a pc like that and where can i get more info i know of the atari portfolio but it can t stand the rain marco seirio in real life sp marse caligula his s
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re possible faq question about a uart in article qjp binn fmsrl srl ford com glang slee srl ford com gordon lang writes national semiconductor i don t know if other manufacturers make equivalent chips or not maybe national isn t even the original but they are the only one that i know about ns ns c ns c ns af ns c and ns c no argument on going direct to national see my previous post on this topic but some info regarding what you said above i don t know about the or but ns was the original source for the series and i strongly suspect that they developed the others first too i can also tell you that i m one of those who won t buy a uart made by anyone other than national semiconductor jim include std disclaimer h de n ial internet jim n ial mythical com j graham ieee org icbm n w amateur radio n ial w zbb ft walton beach fl amtor selcal nial e mail me for information about kamterm host mode for kantronics tncs
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	non turbo speed just taken delivery of a mhz dx machine and very nice it is too one query the landmark speed when turbo is on is or something mhz thats not the problem the problem is the speed when turbo is off its mhz the equivalent in car terms is having a nice porsche with a button that turns it into a skateboard does anyone have a clue as to what determines the relative performance of turbo vs non turbo i would like to set it to give a landmark speed of about or mhz with turbo off cheers nic percival well that was a piece of cake eh k micro focus newbury piece of cake master radial slice of baked ext confection coefficient of relevance to nmp mfltd co uk key to time zero dr who
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need info on font cartridge for hp laserjet ii i am looking for good add on font cartridge for hp laserjet ii i found in pc magazine article iq enginnering and pacific data products are well known maker of cartridge for hp laserjet series but i couldn t find the model name of these products any suggestions please thanks in advance hakamata atsushi sony corporation osaki technology center
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	and what s the difference except from clock frequency what are the differences between the various types of and processors the following is a list with what i know or perhaps only what i think i know can anybody extend correct true bit processor cache sx emulates with a bit bus true bit processor internal mathematical coprocessor correct internal cache correct how big extended instruction set in any way sx probably sorta like dx probably sorta like well it s not much but i m sure there is a lot of people out there who can add a lot of information post or email as you prefer lars j dal q what s the difference between a quantum email joedal dfi aau dk mechanic and an auto mechanic physics student at the a a quantum mechanic can get his car into university of aarhus the garage without opening the door denmark david kra
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re booting from b drive hi i think vga copy can do what you need if you create a new floppy for your a drive that is the turn on the modify switch of vga copy when you boot using this diskette a message appears this is no system disk you can replace disk with another boot from harddisk or switch drives and reboot that is a becomes b b becomes a type your choice when you select the third item you can boot from b which is now called a seems to work very good for example booting drdos from the installation disks in format was no problem for a friend of mine i have only a a drive hope that helps robert p s vga copy is shareware so it s easy to get newest version seems to be robert fuhge haagstrasse erlangen tel privat email rtfuhge cip informatik uni erlangen de demnaechst erlangen wars are not for to see who is right but who is left robert fuhge haagstrasse erlangen tel privat email rtfuhge cip informatik uni erlangen de demnaechst erlangen wars are not for to see who is right but who is left
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re recommendations for a local bus cached ide controller in article apr julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes in article apr sol ctr columbia edu penev venezia rockefeller edu writes i have a maxtor mb on an isa ide controller although my machine is dx vlb i has the save transfer rate of mb s regardless of the variations of the isa bus speed i tested it with speed between mhz and mhz not any difference the problem is not the interface between the controller and the memory my advice buy megs of ram save and enjoy performance computer mhz bus isa mhz drive maxtor a mb i d still like to here from people with vlb ide i still want to know what vlb bus speed is used with ide drives i still want to know if some most ide drives can handle bus speeds mhz i recently bought a micron dx vlb computer and the the local bus ide card was getting around k s transfer rates says norton i caled micron because this seemed pathetically slow and they said that norton xx doesn t recognize local bus and won t give accurate results i was told i would need norton in order to get a true account of my ide transfer speed i didn t really like this answer in part because the drive doesn t seem as though it s cranking along at much more than that but i also don t know if i could tell the difference i tried playing around with settings in the cmos bus speed at the like and noticed no significant change in performance b fed frank shea learn of the skillful frank shea he that teaches himself fas ultb isc rit edu hath a fool for his master rochester institute of technology ben franklin
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re scsi on dos in article apr dde dk ibh dde dk ib hojme writes i have a question concerning scsi on dos i have a st scsi controller and two hard disks conected id s and i d like to connect a scsi streamer but i don t have software to access it does such a beast exist as shareware or pd also what if i want a third disk i know that dos only can see two two physical and four logical disks will it be possible to use extra disks contrary to what others might have thought i actually did have a scsi drive once it was the seagate n and the st controller i found that the controller couldn t keep up with a interleave so the best i could do with the drive was a interleave and a data transfer of about k sec i have had that drive controller coexist with mfm rll and ide drives because the st bios will kinda muscle itself in there with no help needed from the computer s bios dos will see many logical drives much more than i ve had up to i ve often wondered how many scsi drives you could hang off a st
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	vesa local bus hi i was wondering if anyone out there could point me to where i can get the vesa specifications or any relevant books on this subject regards jimmy
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	trident cs drivers for win hello i ve got an old trident cs svga card but lacking suitable drivers for windows the drivers for the series seem to be incompatible does anyone have an idea of where to get these drivers address for an ftp site would be nice thanks in advance jouni jouni marttila yo kyl b turku finland jmarttila abo fi jmarttila finabo abovax jmarttila jjmartti utu fi pgp key available via finger jmarttila abo fi
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re and what s the difference in joedal dfi aau dk joedal dfi aau dk lars joedal writes except from clock frequency what are the differences between the various types of and processors the following is a list with what i know or perhaps only what i think i know can anybody extend correct true bit processor cache no cache sx emulates with a bit bus true bit processor internal mathematical coprocessor correct correct internal cache correct how big kb extended instruction set in any way was it six instructions sx probably sorta like dx without the mathematical coprocessor fpu dx probably sorta like actually the you described above is dx there is no separate nor either this is for intel processors does anyone have a complete list with cyrix and ibm products anssi anssi saari s ee tut fi tampere university of technology finland europe
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re rockwell chipset for s any good tdbear dvorak amd com thomas d barrett writes in article im u c camelot im u c camelot bradley edu joe zbiciak writes what s the word on the chipset is this a rom bug specific to a specific brand using the rockwell or is it the rockwell chipset itself there were an assortment of firmware problems but that is pretty much expected with any fax modem talking with a different fax or modem which may have also been revised or is new i m pretty much oblivious to any current firmware problems so you ll have to get it from someone else someone else could you please comment on that i have just bought a twincom dfi which has a rockwell chipset it wasn t cheap so i would like to hear of problems i m likely to run into however i can tell you to stay clear of any board which uses the rockwell mpu as opposed to the dpu for an internal implementation this is because the mpu used speed buffering instead of having a interface without the interface the number of interrupts are still the same and thus may get dropped under multitasking conditions like in windows as far as i know the speed buffering works ok for external modems if a is used on the internal serial port board phew i was lucky the twincom internal version has a a and one of the rockwell chips is marked rc dp but still i would like to hear more of the above mentioned firmware problems niels
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help can somone explain to me all the stuff about modems like v v hst usrobotics why cheap can t cannot connect fast to some modems just explain to me everything thanks we must believe in free will we have no choice blue wave qwk v
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi here we go again in apr mnemosyne cs du edu smace nyx cs du edu scott mace writes in article apr julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes i almost got a hernia laughing at this one you ll probably get one when you realize that your vesa super dooper local bus ultra high tech controller sucks if anything scsi on a pc will be obsolete killed off by vesa local with any luck pc bus archeitecture will be doen any with by sbus have you ever seen what happens when you hook a busmaster controller to a vesa local bus it actually slows down your system bus ide it must be real nice to get shafted by bucks for the extra cost of a scsi drive then pay another for a scsi controller yeah there is absolutely no use for vlb except for video graphics and no ide could possibly take advantage the vlb because it runs at mhz and bits do people forget that the ide was specifically designed to interface directly with the at isa bus we ve seen ides come out for eisa xt isa and now even mca but at all times it was a bit standard running at somewhere near mhz when you run an ide off of the vlb there s no way that you re running it at mhz it would burn up of course same goes for scsi esdi whatever none of them run at cpu speed the only way to gain advantage with a vlb ide is to hook it up to a caching controller i suspect it would be much much better to get a software disk cache instead since you get write caching as well because you have an ide and no one makes ide disks that big i ve seen some fuji ide drives going as high as g yousuf khan
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	can t get x to work w m ati ultra pro i am unable to get my gateway dx to run windows in x i ordered a m ati ultra pro and i m pretty sure the m is really there because i can select x x but no matter what i do with the flex program in the ati s program group x remains ghosted out i have windows build of the drivers dos the drivers were installed by gateway not by me so perhaps there s a file missing from the hard drive it runs x just fine i did go into the desktop window and select x sometimes it refuses ghosted out other time it accepts it but when i hit ok and re enter desktop it s back to x at no time does it unghost x in the main flex window help keith mancus mancus butch jsc nasa gov n wvr mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov black powder and alcohol when your states and cities fall when your back s against the wall leslie fish
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dos question could some kind soul please email ma a response since i don t have much time to read this group question i have a mb hard drive which currently has mb left how much space will doublespace allow me to have i have a w mb ram if it matters thanks in advance jason jason brown cs au decster uta edu fav player ruben sierra
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re can t get x to work w m ati ultra pro in article apr aio jsc nasa gov mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov keith mancus writes i am unable to get my gateway dx to run windows in x i ordered a m ati ultra pro and i m pretty sure the m is really there because i can select x x but no matter what i do with the flex program in the ati s program group x remains ghosted out i have windows build of the drivers dos the drivers were installed by gateway not by me so perhaps there s a file missing from the hard drive it runs x just fine i did go into the desktop window and select x sometimes it refuses ghosted out other time it accepts it but when i hit ok and re enter desktop it s back to x at no time does it unghost x in the main flex window help maybe you need to go into mach install and set a refresh rate for x you might need to use custom monitor option dan daniel matthew coleman internet dcoleman ccwf cc utexas edu dcoleman utxvms cc utexas edu the university of texas at austin decnet utxvms dcoleman electrical computer engineering bitnet dcoleman utxvms bitnet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	question about fastmicro i thought i read that fastmicro was having some financial difficulties is this true i can t seem to find the posting about it and was wondering if someone can confirm this thanks eric sebastian
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	what disk drives are out there when sw is delivered you will often always get k diskettes if you opt for the inch format how big a tage of existing pc xt at ps s have these low capacity drives as their only diskette station o o ooo ooo richard soderberg md the karolinska institute systems analyst mic kibic voice library and fax medical information center snail po box doktorsringen c s stockholm s stockholm email richard micb mic ki se sweden
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help with magitronic bit memory card needed hi i m busy resurrecting some old machines hey they re cheap and they work and would be grateful for any help with the following card magitronic full length bit memory only card has room for rows of k dips for a total of mb ram has an position dip switch on it presumably for addressing does any kind soul out there have any docs or drivers for this beast i d be disgustingly grateful thanks lee lee tosspot sv com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	bit mfm hd controller wanted hi again okay am getting an old at type together as well anyone have a bit mfm hdc they d like to sell wd is preferred but adaptec and dtk are fine too for that matter almost anything so long as it works lee lee tosspot sv com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cga card monitor wanted and again title says it all why lee lee tosspot sv com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	serial multiport card for sale selling arnet multiport card four serial ports on one card s with docs and drivers for os and dos works great with unix flavors too aggregate is probably around kb offers also willing to swap for monitor lee lee tosspot sv com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re scsi on dos in article apr julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes it was the seagate n and the st controller i found that the controller couldn t keep up with a interleave so the best i could do with the drive was a interleave and a data transfer of about k sec according to what others have told me the st n is difficult to run at the interleave even though seagate claims it i have a non pc system don t ask what it is you probably haven t heard of it that is built around scsi and it can t do either brian bcwhite sunee uwaterloo ca in theory theory and practice are the same in practice they re not
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re date is stuck in article qte kn usenet ins cwru edu ab cleveland freenet edu sam latonia writes i can t imagine why someone would leave their computer on all of the time to start with its like leaving your lights tv radio and everything in the house on all of the time to me nuts we have plenty of computer labs where the computers are left on all the time i don t see any shorter lifespan than the ones we have in the offices which does get turned off at the end of the day in fact some of the computers in the labs have outlived some of the same ones in the offices but it goes both ways so can t conclude anything thomas
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help with dtk i o plus ii card needed i am trying to help a friend of mine get the second serial port on his dtk i o plus ii card working and it does not want to cooperate the documentation is no help at all as an example it says the serial port can be changed to com from com by moving jumpers but does not say what jumpers to move there are banks of jumpers the first one is labeled as follows c c s p p g the second bank is labeled irq and has the following labels c s s c s i have determined that the c c jumpers tell it to address the first serial port as com or com the p p jumpers tell it to use the printer port as lpt or lpt i am guessing that the g enables the game port and the s should enable the second serial port but i can t get it to work i have tried numerous setting on the irq bank without success i assume that this bank must tell the card which irq s to use for both ports but i don t know how any suggestions would be greatly appreciated ebd elliot dierksen is that a real poncho i mean is that a mexican poncho or is that a sears poncho hmmm no foolin f zappa w e dierksen att com h elliot alfred uucp
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors mikey sgi com mike yang writes in article qslfs bm access digex net rash access digex com wayne rash writes i also reviewed a new nanao the f iw which has just been released what s the difference between the f i and the new f iw i m about to buy a gateway system and was going to take the f i upgrade should i get the f iw instead mike yang silicon graphics inc mikey sgi com the f iw is optimized for windows it powers down when the screen blanker appears it powers down with you turn your computer off and it meets all of the swedish standards it s also protected against emi from adjacent monitors personally i think the f i is more bang for the buck right now
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	what s the diff between mouse sys com what s the difference between loading mouse com in autoexec bat and doing device mouse sys in config sys which one is better thanks a lot enrique
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	fastmicro out of business i heard fastmicro went out of business is this true they don t answer their number it s
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re and what s the difference in article joedal dfi aau dk joedal dfi aau dk lars joedal says except from clock frequency what are the differences between the various types of and processors the following is a list with what i know or perhaps only what i think i know can anybody extend correct true bit processor cache no cache also called dx sx emulates with a bit bus it has the same internals as the is a real bit processor just has bit hookup to the outside world true bit processor internal mathematical coprocessor correct yes optimized internal internal cache correct how big yes k extended instruction set in any way yes but only a few instructions nothing noteworthy sx probably sorta like with no coprocessor dx probably sorta like nope just another name for the frank racis fwr psuvm psu edu fwr eclu psu edu computers are useless they can only give answers i will not raise taxes on the middle class to pay for my programs wjbc
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how is a loopback connector made i need to know the pins to connect to make a loopback connector for a serial port so i can build one the loopback connector is used to test the serial port thanks for any help steve
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help need diagnostic disk for my compaq deskpro in article apr clam rutgers edu steuer clam rutgers edu robert steuer writes my emergency management group was given about compaq deskpro s from a local company as they were outdated problem is though it seems that the cmos settings cannot be set without this diagnostic disk we get this error msg on boot up system options not set run setup insert diagnostic diskette in drive a if someone has this disk please e mail me thank you robert m steuer amateur radio kf ek n foa epa pa usa na rutgers university internet steuer clam rutgers edu vhf repeater system cherry hill nj kf ek repeater mhz computer operating system os why settle for less robert you have probably solved your problem by now anyway if you can get your hands on qa plus version maybe others as well it will let you write the compaq cmos settings i know because i just did it i was just about to search for such a diagnostic disk when my brother in law fixed an old deskpro with it you might try the simtel mirror ftp sites george
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors in article qulqa hp access digex net rash access digex com wayne rash writes the f iw is optimized for windows it powers down when the screen blanker appears it powers down with you turn your computer off and it meets all of the swedish standards it s also protected against emi from adjacent monitors thanks for the info personally i think the f i is more bang for the buck right now how much more does the f iw cost mike yang silicon graphics inc mikey sgi com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	us robotics info wanted could someone please give me some info regarding the usr sportsters that have recently dropped below i was going to buy a used courier v bis external without fax for but now i see the sportster with fax is selling below brand new are these good modems what warranty do they carry any info very much appreciated kevin hollyk mcmail cis mcmaster ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re cyrix dlc cpu anyone using this cpu what is your impressions of the cpu performance compatability there is a benchmark program called comptest said cyrix cpus have a bug so they cannot run the program also may be nextstep regards desmond li lut uk
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	new svga card hi all hardware netters i ve seen recently on some magazines advertising a new trident graphics card call cl the ad said it s new and faster how is it compare to tseng et btw which is the fastest non accelerated svga on the market any info or benchmark are welcome thanks in advance regards desmond li lut uk
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	g k jumbo backup problems i have a colorado memory systems jumbo tape backup unit in my gateway v tower system i have found the supplied backup capability to be fairly unreliable in approx cases out of i have had the backup fail at one point or another often hanging in the middle of writing the tape seek errors drive communication errors seem to be most common i use the dos backup software from colorado memory systems should i return the drive get some better backup software reformat the tapes am using cms tapes any hints would be appreciated this stuff is to time consuming to do over and over again until it cooperates steve norman snorman den mmc com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need info of maxtor sy scsi jumper id setting i got a harddisk shipped with an ide specification but not the scsi spec would someone tell me how to set the jumper on the harddrive thanks please email response philip sinn sinn carson u washington edu university of washington
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	mitsumi and sb pro hi i just bought a mitsumi cd rom drive and a sb pro soundcard the pin outs on the cd rom line out and the sb pro cd in are not the same i am considering taking the rca output jacks on the mitsumi interface card and routing them to the line in input on the sb pro will this work with multi media software that uses the cd rom and the sb pro or do i need to go to the cd in pins on the sb pro thanks john john manning opinions expressed are my own j manning csc enet dec com i do not represent digital equip
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	vesa lb what is bus mastering i read an article about the benefits of a vlb motherboard it said that a true vlb board supports bus mastering otherwise it is just as good as an isa motherboard doesn t all vlb motherboard support bus mastering i just bought a vlb and the tech manual does not explicitly state the words local bus mastering but it said it supports bus master and slave modes are these terms synonymous thanks ps please reply by e mail as i don t read this newgroup often
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	winjet accelerator card anyone familiar with this video card what chipset does the winjet use s as i am in the market for a vlg video card what is the best chipset among s cirrus logic and tseng lab ati is out of the question too expensive thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	diamond stealth giving winmarks i have just installed a diamond stealth isa card in a dx system with k cache and megs of memory that gets about a si cpu benchmark rating using the x x color driver under windows i am getting a winbench winmarks rating of only about million since i have heard that others get to million for this card i assume that something is very wrong with my setup what are some possible causes of the card slowing down like this i ran the qualitas asq diagnostic program on memory and i noted the following memory timings on my machine asq v by qualitas system analysis mon apr am page access timing hex kb kb access speed ratio start start size time us a b c c e f note two things on this chart the video memory appears to be many orders of magnitude slower than system memory are there wait states being inserted here and what would cause that the ems page frame seems to be ridiculously slow even though it is being mapped to the fast xms memory in my system through emm what s going on there note that my stealth s video bios at c c ff is being shadowed through the ami bios any ideas on what might be happening here will estes internet westes netcom com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cd rom drives has someone a list of cd rom s with no scsi interface and if known how much they are present in the market please mail direcktly as i am not reguarly reading the group i ll post a summary if wanted thanks ihno ihno krumreich phone u u n n iii x x synerix gmbh email ihno generics ka sub org u u nn n i x x bach strasse fax u u n n n i x d w karlsruhe u u n nn i x x uuu n n iii x x ihno krumreich phone u u n n iii x x synerix gmbh email ihno generics ka sub org u u nn n i x x
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	motherboards hard drives i have just a few quick questions does anyone here have a dlc system a cyrix dx any problems with it second how much should a cyric dlc motherboard with no ram run me rd should a total amatuer like myslef be able to perform a motherboard swap without the aid of a technician or is it beyond hope th i hear that some if not all hard drives may require reformatting if you switch them to another computer or motherboard as the case may be is there any truth to this any replies would be greatly appreciated
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re umbdr zip any later version fombaron ufrima imag fr fombaron marc writes is there a more recent version of umbdr zip because it doesn t work on my machine my motherboard has symphony sl c chips and they say it will be supported in the later versions so is it out thank you for helping marc the last i heard the author was having some problems in his immediate family and had delayed the continuation of development for a time this was some months ago it s a shame the driver is the best memory manager i have found anywhere it doesn t require v mode like qemm so it works with ultima it doesn t take any memory runs then exits if only the emm provider were a little faster and more stable tmcreek eos ncsu edu these views respresent no one now you creek tm aza csc ncsu edu even i won t claim them are here include std funny stuff h this is where i include some witty tripe
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dec mt adaptec scsi comm conflict i have a dec nt dx that has an adaptec scsi controller hard disk and cd rom drive when i add a comm ethernet card c and reboot the system i receive an error message that a boot device cannot be found pull the comm card and reboot everything is fine i ve moved the controller and comm card to various slots different positions slot before the controller slot after the controller with the same result dec hasn t responded to the problem yet any help would be appreciated edward t keegan facility director e mail keegan cs yale edu yale university computer science department phone prospect street room fax new haven ct
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re diamond stealth giving winmarks in article westesc qvap bgj netcom com westes netcom com will estes writes i have just installed a diamond stealth isa card in a dx system with k cache and megs of memory that gets about a si cpu benchmark rating using the x x color driver under windows i am getting a winbench winmarks rating of only about million since i have heard that others get to million for this card i assume that something is very wrong with my setup what are some possible causes of the card slowing down like this most importantly which winbench version are you using on my local bus ati graphics ultra pro i ve gotten various winbench scores from million to million winmarks depending on the version winbench gives the most optimistic scores gives the least a winmark rating is meaningless without a corresponding version number dan daniel matthew coleman internet dcoleman ccwf cc utexas edu dcoleman utxvms cc utexas edu the university of texas at austin decnet utxvms dcoleman electrical computer engineering bitnet dcoleman utxvms bitnet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re recommendations for a local bus cache in article sol ctr columbia edu penev rockefeller edu penio penev writes on apr gmt divya sundaram sundaram egr msu edu wrote i would like to hear the net wisdom and net opinions on ide controllers i would liek to get a ide controller card for my vlb dx motherboard what are good options for this preferably under it must also work under os and be compatible with stacker and other disk compression s w i have a maxtor mb on an isa ide controller although my machine is dx vlb i has the save transfer rate of mb s regardless of the variations of the isa bus speed i tested it with speed between mhz and mhz not any difference the problem is not the interface between the controller and the memory my advice buy megs of ram save and enjoy performance penio penev x w internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer all oppinions are mine i also have a dx and a maxtor i have a local bus ide controller generic and i get kb s i tried swapping my local bus ide controller for an isa ide controller and my transfer rate went to kb s the specs for this drive show a maximum platter to controller transfer rate of mb s i dont know how to get there from here the local bus interface got me a little but certainly not as much as i had hoped i am also looking for a way to improve my disk performance but im not convinced that the controller is the bottleneck although im willing to entertain the possibility that it is i am already running a big main memory disk cache so im not really interested in this solution either chris brinton teradyne inc brinton icd teradyne com my opinions are my own but you re welcome to them
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re winjet accelerator card gv fragante fragante unixg ubc ca wrote anyone familiar with this video card what chipset does the winjet use s as i am in the market for a vlg video card what is the best chipset among s cirrus logic and tseng lab ati is out of the question too expensive thanks winjet is not a video card it s printer accelerator manufactured by lasermaster eden prairie mn willy ville v walveranta tel fax linda ave apt from finland oakland ca faxes automatically recognized usa email wil shell portal com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help installing second ide drive in article qn iv darwin sura net wbarnes sura net bill barnes writes recently my cousin got a second internal ide drive a seagate mb i can look up the model number if it s important and i ve been trying to help him install it i ve got a vested interest since my machine s busted and i have to use his until i get mine fixed he already has a seagate mb ide hd again i forget the model number but i can find out anyway i can t seem to get the bloody thing up i ve managed to get one or the other drive up with the other disconnected but not both at the same time whenever i try the thing hangs during bootup never gets past the system test the ide controller s instruction sheet says it supports two drives i think i ve configured the cmos correctly the power s plugged in properly i even learned about the master slave relationship that two hds are supposed to have didn t know pcs were into s m and i think i configured the jumpers properly the mb one is the master the new mb one is the slave the only thing i can think of is maybe i m doing the cabling wrong i ve tried several combinations controller master slave controller slave master master controller slave none of them worked unfortunately i can t think of any others another possibility is that the mb one is already partitioned into two seperate drives c and d and the cmos asks for c drive and d drive setup info rather than drive and drive like most others i ve seen could this be confusing things so i need help the drive came bereft of any docs except for some info for the cmos setup the controller has a little piece of paper about the size of an index card i cannibalized the cable it s one of those with a connector at each end and the one in the middle so it looks like a serial connection now i be lost many many thanks in advance this is practically an emergency i have two papers to do on this thing for monday help william barnes suranet operations wbarnes sura net voice fax disclaimer i don t speak for suranet and they don t speak for me i ve been told by our local computer guru that you can t do this unless you perform a low level format on your existing hard drive and set your system up for two hard drives from the beginning i took him at his word and i have not tried to find out any more about it because i m not going to back everything up just to add another hdd if anyone knows for sure what the scoop is i would like to know also thanks in advance also bill willis
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help my esdi is posessed by demons help i really got ripped off and i need some help unripping myself i bought a maxtor mb esdi hdd from hi tech for then paid to get it repaired for about another here s the deal the thing works fine it low level formats etc without any bad spots at all and then jaws music sectors start going bad eek one at a time norton disk doctor keeps marking some u and some c that fixes it for about minutes then next day when i run ndd on it again no dice more uncorrectable and correctable sectors ahhhhhuuuurrrrrrggggghhhhh so i fugure ok ndd s just not being thurough enough i ll use spinrite i heard that works well what happens spinrite goes and returns the clusters to active use ahhhuuuurrrrrrggggghhhh ndd undoes it of course the problem seams to be getting worse and worse however when the hdd is low level formatted again the problem goes away for a while only to return in a day or so i m so pissed off right now i m considering buying another hdd and i really can t afford it i m using smartdrive and windows i m not using the bit disk access though i know that can create problems the disk is using the second option to trick the controller into thinking it s got less then cyls and everything else selected is standard maybe i need to use a different head skew or something i don t know anyone who knows how to fix this problem please tell me how help gt designing tommorow the night before with yesterday s technology
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help ten beeps with ami bios i have a motherboard with ami bios i haven t located the little motherboard manual yet and suddenly it s giving me beeps when i turn the power on it was working fine this morning then gave all kinds of problems in windows and outside it after multiple reboots now it only gives beeps and sits there anybody know what beeps means thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help with motherboard w no docs well i was told that my last message came through without anything in it so i ll try again i have a leading edge sx with a flaky motherboard and a friend game me one to replace it but he didn t have any docs for the mother board it s a cheertron board with award bios and has a sticker on it that says vi t t on it i can tell what most of the switches on the blue blocks mean except fdc and sh but i have no idea about all the jumpers i ve replaced hard drives and modems and installed math co processes but this is a bit out of my league and without the docs i m really lost if anyone could give me some help on this i d really appreciate it i don t get on news regularly so if you can help please e mail me at passman world std com thanks shirl
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help with c and ncsa telnet help i m trying to configure ncsa telnet v to work with a c ethernet board i can use ftp fine but whenever i attempt to use telnet the machine hangs with a blank screen and a blinking green cursor any ideas please e mail lepper maat mct anl gov mjlepper mtu edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re diamond stealth giving winmarks does your stealth have a row of dip switches on the back plane if so you have the older revision a board and the winmark results are absolutely normal the later revision b board benchmarks at to million winmarks at least mine does in dx toy v
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	q connor pc jumper settings anyone who knows this answer off hand please answer me by e mail quickly there is a pair of jumpers on one side and a set of or on the other end one is labeled sync and one cd and e e e whhich do i need to short or disconnect to get drive to operate in slave mode give me a label or geographic label as they have quite a few jumpers and i don t wanna try the trial and error method i am using ide i think this drive is scsi compatible too jimmy jimmyhua usc edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help needed in setting up ncsa telnet w appletalk or phonenet okay i m trying to install ncsa telnet on a couple okay a whole bunch of machines they re all true blue ibms with either fallon phonenet cards or dastar cards i belive those names are correct well the docs for telnet say that it ll run over an appletalk driver but i ve had little success if anyone has succesfully installed telnet w appletalk i d like some help with the config file for telnet btw please reply via e mail if possible thanks jeremy jeremy zawodny computer science undergrad bowling green state university jzawodn andy bgsu edu student computer consultant thrilled os user
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	q scsi ide i e or more hard drives please response directly to me luoma binah cc brandeis edu by email if there are a sufficient number of interesting responses i will post a summary on april or i have waded through the mass of scsi ide posting but i missed any answers to a question posted early on has anyone successfully put both scsi and ide hard drives on the same system i am particularly interested in having the scsi as the boot drive for those who have managed this feat i would appreciate a bit more information such as what drives which scsi controller and if possible what motherboard bios plus any other relevant info thanks in advance robert luoma luoma binah cc brandeis all flames will be stored on my worn drive
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re recommendations for a local bus cache penio penev penev rockefeller edu wrote i have a maxtor mb on an isa ide controller although my machine is dx vlb i has the save transfer rate of mb s regardless of the variations of the isa bus speed i tested it with speed between mhz and mhz not any difference the problem is not the interface between the controller and the memory chris brinton brinton icd teradyne com wrote i also have a dx and a maxtor i have a local bus ide controller generic and i get kb s i tried swapping my local bus ide controller for an isa ide controller and my transfer rate went to kb s the specs for this drive show a maximum platter to controller transfer rate of mb s i dont know how to get there from here the local bus interface got me a little but certainly not as much as i had hoped i am also looking for a way to what is the deal with the ide transfer rates is anybody getting throughput anywhere close to the platter controller rate i haven t seen anything even close to the mb sec limit of the ide interface these drives are non interleaved aren t they here are the rates i get sequential read msdos c program that uses bios calls to read sector blocks sequentially from outside first track inward mhz bus mhz bus maxtor lxt kb sec kb sec quantum lps kb sec kb sec disk buffer read same c program but re reads the same block repeatedly so in effect is reading the ram buffer on the drive mhz bus mhz bus maxtor lxt kb sec kb sec quantum lps kb sec kb sec coretest v transfer rate seems to agree with above mhz bus mhz bus maxtor lxt kb sec kb sec quantum lps kb sec kb sec i managed to get hold of the quantum lps at product manual and it goes into excrutiating detail describing how the bits get from the platter through the controller and out the ide interface nowhere do i see anything like after the bits are whipped of the platter at high speed they sit around in a buffer to thaw before they are sent to the host even though i swear that s whats happening here are some relevent quotes from the manual data is transferred from the disk to the read buffer at a rate of mb s maximum mb s minimum my calculations show kb sec maximum and kb sec minimum disk spins at rpm with sectors per track on the outside and on the inside single burst errors of up to bits within one sector can be corrected on the fly in real time as they occur allowing a high degree of data integrity with no impact to the drive s performance i take this to mean error correction isn t the bottleneck for page mode operations the data transfer rate to and from the buffer ram is up to mb s this high transfer rate allows the at interface ic to communicate over the at bus at a data transfer rate of mb s while the dcs simultaneously controls disk to ram transfers so the thing can even do it s cache pre fetch while it s sending the requested sector it has kb read buffers for pre fetching i guess you could call that a cache so when i do a sequential read on the outer tracks why am i getting a measly kb sec when i should be getting around mb sec any of you hard disk engineers out there know wondering why my disks are so slow david o o ooo ooo david stam linux the choice of a gnu generation stam netcom com un x x r openlook gcc tex free
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	will somebody create a messie dos faq please was dos question hi there i think it is time to create a ms dos faq since lots of questions about it are actually flooding the net i won t be able to write it my self because of the lack of time knowledge experience perry egelmeers
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi here we go again in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu smace nyx cs du edu scott mace writes if you don t belive what i said about busmastering and vlbus then pick up a back issue of pc week in whihc they tested vlbus eisa and isa busmastering cards do you recall which issue this was in i posted a message related to this a while back to provoke an argument so that i could get the straight dope on this this article would probably give me all the definitive answers that i want ed stasic estasic ic sunysb edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re winjet accelerator card in c r ya ef unix portal com wil shell portal com ville v walveranta writes winjet is not a video card it s printer accelerator manufactured by lasermaster eden prairie mn i know there s a winjet for the laserjet and there s also a winjet accelerator video card this is probably not available in the us but i am sure it is being marketed in canada i thought you guys over there would have heard some thing about it
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	pentium clock counts does anyone have a list of the clock counts for pentium instructions or know if the integer mul is down to tick thanks hw stockman hwstock sandia llnl gov
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	amd i clones now legal in us a friend of mine called me on the phone and told me he was wathcing cnn and saw a report that the ruling prohibiting amd from selling their i clones has been thrown out making it legal for amd to ship in the us can anyone out there verify this thanks in advance phil
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need pinouts for ext db floppy connectors please hi all this is my first posting so be gentle i have a zenith external floppy which has a db connector and i d like to use it with my sharp and toshiba laptops which also take a db for their ext floppy but it doesn t work i have the pinouts for the zenith and would like to make adapters so i can use it does anyone have pinouts for these or other manufacturers db ext floppy connectors i would greatly appreciate this info either by e mail or fax thanks very much jeff aka flyboy coyote trw com fax jeff wright flyboy spf trw com phone fax trw one space park o redondo beach ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re diamond stealth giving winmarks hi when posting winmark results it is a good idea to give the version of winbench that you used to obtain the scores as well as the resolution that you tested and the version of the drivers eric balog balog eniac seas upenn edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re uarts was uucico for windows turtle west darkside com fred waller writes s are not stupid actually they are in the sense that hardware solutions to a software problem are not proper a programmer s function much deleted amazing i could not find one reference to waffle in all of this followups redirected out russell schulz russell alpha ersys edmonton ab ca ersys rschulz shad c
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re can t get x to work w m ati ultra pro in article apr aio jsc nasa gov mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov keith mancus writes i am unable to get my gateway dx to run windows in x i ordered a m ati ultra pro and i m pretty sure the m is really there because i can select x x but no matter what i do with the flex program in the ati s program group x remains ghosted out i have windows build of the drivers dos the drivers were installed by gateway not by me so perhaps there s a file missing from the hard drive it runs x just fine i did go into the desktop window and select x sometimes it refuses ghosted out other time it accepts it but when i hit ok and re enter desktop it s back to x at no time does it unghost x in the main flex window help keith i had a problem getting colors i was stuck with even though the flex stuff said i was at i solved it by entering the advanced window on the flex program pannel and changing the color palette sorry for the vaugeness i hope it helps some btw i have a gw v and m ati gup matt sexton sexton claes space lockheed com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors mikey eukanuba wpd sgi com mike yang writes in article qulqa hp access digex net rash access digex com wayne rash writes the f iw is optimized for windows it powers down when the screen blanker appears it powers down with you turn your computer off and it meets all of the swedish standards it s also protected against emi from adjacent monitors thanks for the info personally i think the f i is more bang for the buck right now how much more does the f iw cost mike yang silicon graphics inc mikey sgi com i think the difference is about dollars but i could be wrong these things change between press time and publication
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re how much should i pay for a scsi cable with or connectors in t y b w w hub parallan com danj hub parallan com dan jones writes also i seem to remember a posting saying that the scsi spec calls for foot between devices on the cable but most cables you get internal don t meet the spec scsi ii draft proposal rev h section single ended cable which is in the cable requirements section has an implementor s note stub clustering should be avoided stubs should be spaced at least meters apart for the non technical stubs are scsi devices however also be aware that implementor s notes are basicly recommendations they are not part of the spec as others have noted many vendors including sgi violate this indeed the main point is to reduce impedance changes and therefore reflections and therefore noise on the bus let no one tell me that silence gives consent dave olson because whoever is silent dissents silicon graphics inc maria isabel barreno olson sgi com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	can i have printers on a pc lan i have recently plunged into pc world i have been using amigas before trying to establish a network lan here that could use different printers panasonic kxp for printing receipts and okidata ol for letters etc is it at all possible in this world i know when using unix etc i can specify which printer to print from but i am not sure how pcs would handle that if they can t then i guess i ll leave peeeceees for good and move on to unix mubashir cheema sparco communications ph lagalarie fax russell street suite email mac ra msstate edu starkville ms
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	avi file format hi would someone please email and post the avi microsoft file format i wish to do some research using this format as there are disks available with video clips it is interesting because it interleaves sound and video thank you mark gregory lecturer m gregory rmit edu au ph fax royal melbourne institute of technology department of communication and electronic engineering p o box v melbourne victoria australia mark gregory lecturer m gregory rmit edu au ph fax royal melbourne institute of technology department of communication and electronic engineering p o box v melbourne victoria australia
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	utility to switch cap locks ctrl keys being a big fan of the official ibm keyboards i have a ps keyboard attached to my clone computer i want to know if there is a software utility out there that can be used to switch the locations of the ctrl and cap locks keys even better does ibm or any third party make ctrl and cap lock key replacements that can be used to visually switch the keys as well will estes internet westes netcom com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	can t set com i have been unable to get com to work diagnostic programs such as msd show nothing installed i think the software options are ok is there a known hardware conflict and or workaround for this problemand cd rom system is a g k dx tower with ati video card ports are set as follows on board coma com irq to external device internal modem com irq dfio port card primary port com irq mouse on board com b com irq does not work i have run this from a boot disk with only command com to eliminate softwar any suggestions before i call technical support john siegel k bnc cbnewsh att com jas hrollie hr att com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	run box w o cover b i am interested in getting the pulse of this group regarding b extended operation of my g k v with the cover removed b from the enclosure there are a of reasons i am considering b this including quick access to jumpers during complex i o card b setups b my concern is that without a complete enclosure to direct the b cooling flow of air from the fan hot spots may develop on my b motherboard or elsewhere if you have an adequate supply of air moving over the system most offices or homes have positive ventilation you can generally run a system without the cover for extended periods without a problem i m talking about completely removing the cover not just leaving the slots uncovered however the biggest reason you have a cover to begin with is rf sheilding operating a system without the full cover may create problems with other equipment such as your neighbor s tv or ham radio station very much a no no in the eyes of the law slmr a remember they re only tools not a way of life via dlgqwk v a
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re umbdr zip any later version 
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dos i know of two people who have horrer stories about the dos that s of the people i know with dos both have had to reformat their disks and start over one had drive d compress and work fine only to compress c to have the thing choke spit out an unintelligable warning and then hang all that was left on either drive was autoexec bat and config sys calls to microsoft only met with busy signals after reformatting the drive i m not sure if he had the guts to reinstall or stay with a known entity the other may have been a marginal drive however his upgrade failed he had to format a floppy disk at format the drive and then reinstall i make now claims since i was not driving at the time however be careful and make sure you back important things up i am interested in any other people with similar or success stories
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	hayes external ac pins hello i have a hayes moden with no cables or manuals the modem requires a source of v ac but i do not know how to connect the power source to the pin connector i know that the top pin is the ground so i would guess that the other two are the ac pins right if you have any hints please e mail me i really need help thanks duc n
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re amd i clones now legal in us excerpts from netnews comp sys ibm pc hardware apr amd i clones now legal by poe wharton upenn edu a friend of mine called me on the phone and told me he was wathcing cnn and saw a report that the ruling prohibiting amd from selling their i clones has been thrown out making it legal for amd to ship in the us can anyone out there verify this it s true i read about it from an article in clarinet can t send it here though u s district court judge william a ingram of san francisco threw out the jury verdict prohibiting amd from using intels microcode for the david sward sward cmu edu finger or email for pgp public key d f fingerprint e b c db f b fb dc f cb e stop the big brother chip just say no to the clipper wiretap chip
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	sx for sale i have a sx megs ram meg harddrive stacked to w stacker floppy expansion slots drive bays vga card no monitor or interesting combination of cash and trade located in chicago please e mail to this address tmccn merle acns nwu edu or call allister at thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cdrom audio cable i am looking for a cdrom audio cable to connect my toshiba b l r audio to the pro audio spectrum sound card thanks in advance for any pointers steve steve la network manager stevela csulb edu calstate university long beach bellflower blvd long beach ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi in article qsa innm b dns nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb writes richk grebyn com richard krehbiel writes stuff about the connection between ide and ida deleated mhz clock bit width mb sec if ide speed come from ida where does the mb s sighted for ide come from well some quick math on my part shows that an mhz bus bits wide performing a transfer every two clock cycles will provide m bytes sec someone said that it really takes clock cycles to perform a transfer so that reduces the transfer rate to mb s which is the commonly used figure for isa bus speed however i believe a two clock transfer is possible wait states richard krehbiel richk grebyn com os will do for me until amigados for the comes along
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re date is stuck jamesc netcom com james chuang writes when you leave your radio on at night it may not be doing anything useful but computers can do something useful even when you are not in front of it just because ms dos and windoze does not know how to schedule tasks does not mean that all computers hould be shut down every night i bet starting up nt every morning means a good coffee break jamesc if someone asks if you are a god you say yes in addition to startup time i leave things running because my pc doubles as a fax machine however this is off the original subject i didn t get the replies on bios cmos and dos clock date logic all i know is that i ve been running this way for many months and it is only recently the last month that i have noticed the intermittent clock problem as i stated it is not always the date that doesn t roll forward sometimes i notice that the clock is several minutes behind where it ought to be when unattended the following are generally running minimized in win clock winfax pro print manager ms word file manager program manager a random screen saver is generally running too barry sardis home laurie avenue office san jose ca fax email bsardis netcom com or compuserve com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors has anyone taken a look at the new viewsonic they claim x at hz how does it compare with the t i in terms of price and quality of display living on tulsa time rusty foreman rforeman trc amoco com amoco production research uunet apctrc zrdf p o box phone tulsa ok fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway booting from floppy i have a gateway dx v with my inch floppy as drive a i accidentally discovered that if a have a floppy from one particular box of diskettets in the a drive when i boot up rather than getting the non system diskette message the machine hangs and the cmos gets overwritten luckily gateway sends a print of the standard cmos settings with their systems this only happens with a box of pre formatted fuji disks that i have no other disks cause this problem if i re format one of the fuji disks the problem goes away i did a virus scan scan v of the disks and found nothing anyone have any idea what is going on here hardware problem a virus that can t be detected the system reading in garbage from the boot sector tim king tcking uswnvg com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	vl bus hdd fdd controller or ide hdd fdd controller hi i am buying a quantum lps at mb hardisk and is deciding a hdd fdd controller is bit vl bus hdd fdd controller faster than bit ide hdd fdd controller card i hear that the vl bus controller is slower than a ide controller which one is true please shed some light by email or post thanks a lot best regards beng hang tay telnet singapore networks operation phone hewlett packard singapore pte ltd fax depot road internet taybh hpsgm sgp hp com singapore republic of singapore
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re debugging possible hardware problems in article r rslinnnv senator bedfellow mit edu jfc athena mit edu john f carr writes i m running linux on an eisa system and i m having what i think are hardware problems it could be software but i don t see why i d be the only one having trouble i d like some advice on how best to debug this the symptom when i try to build gcc i get unpredictable and unrepeatable results sometimes a o file is not in valid a out format recompiling the file gives me a valid binary sometimes the compiler aborts or dumps core but works fine when run again with the same input compiling the same source files with the same arguments gives slight differences in a few object files note that linux unlike many other systems does not put timestamps in object files so compiling twice should give bit identical results i also have occasional filesystem corruption on my scsi drive but that could be caused by using development software it could also be related to my problems compiling the compile problems are not caused by disk problems i get the same results whether i do my work on an ide or scsi disk i ve set the memory speed and cache write speed to the recommended values recommended for what dos that is a junk i suspect the external cache but i have no real evidence for this the motherboard is a nice super eisa with kb write back cache and a dx mhz processor what i m looking for a system test program to run under dos or linux linux gcc fire up gcc to compile libc and kernel at the same time running x r suggestions about the cause of the problem bad memory bad motherboard bad cache suggestions about how to debug the problem change wait state of ram turn off turbo change bus speed swap ram h j
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re what s the diff between mouse sys com x sanson gw wmich edu wrote what s the difference between loading mouse com in autoexec bat and doing device mouse sys in config sys the only difference is the time the driver gets loaded mouse sys will be loaded during the config sys and therefor before the command com mouse com will be loaded during autoexec bat and so after the command com which one is better mouse com could be started from the commandline after the booting and it could perhaps be unloaded if no other driver is loaded after it the working of both drivers is totally the same when i ran dos i preferred loading most of the drivers in autoexec bat because some programs won t run with some drivers and i could choose the ones i needed during startup but with drdos this advantage is gone because drdos lets you choose in config sys which drivers should be loaded michael michael jester gun de michael gerhards preussenstrasse germany neuss voice
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help ten beeps with ami bios g wayne nichols gwni troi cc rochester edu wrote i have a motherboard with ami bios after multiple reboots now it only gives beeps and sits there referring to the manual of my motherboard with ami bios beeps are a cmos shutdown register read write error if the system stops after these beeps if the system continues it is a keyboard error michael michael jester gun de michael gerhards preussenstrasse germany neuss voice
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re weitek p future plans in article qttufinn dr uniko uni koblenz de from apr gmt you wrote in article apr jetsun weitek com robert weitek com robert plamondon writes in article q n pinn m uniko uni koblenz de hodgen ozzy uni koblenz de wayne hodgen writes to sum up when an accelerated board with mb vram true colour x and a fast vga side is available under i will buy one supermac just announced a new line of pc accelerated cards that do x in bit color they start at retail i don t think your wait will be very long rupert
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	reboot problem from x b usma usma edu tue apr received from usma usma edu by trotter usma edu smi eef id aa tue apr edt received by usma usma edu eef id aa tue apr edt message id aa usma usma edu date tue apr edt from x b usma usma edu peckham david cdt to cs au decster uta edu subject problem status or i am running a unisys pw sx with dos my problem even when i had dos is that when i have emm loaded i can t ctl alt del if i do the computer beeps a few times rapidly and hangs then i have to use the obscure reset requires a screwdriver or pencil or the power switch to reboot does anyone have a solution to this problem e mail me at x b usma usma edu dave thanks dave david s peckham internet x b usma usma edu u s military academy jason brown cs au decster uta edu fav player ruben sierra
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	sound blaster midi hi i m currently in the process of writing a number of pd programs for the sound blaster the first of which is a cmf voice editor which is hopefully going to be available soon as soon as i can get it to an ftp site anyway the next stage is to use the midi port to enter music and play the fm synth remotely the problem is that i have little or no info on the sb midi port i have tried using the sound blaster freedom project routines however this just results in the port locking after a couple of accesses and loss the of note velocity data byte i am using turbo c and would be grateful for any info or source fragments may help when i was in berlin this summer i saw a book which seemed to have all this information but my german is poor to say the least if anyone has this book could they please mail me my second request for help concerns standard file formats how can a file format be standard if you keep it secret i need to know the file format for instrument bank files bnk and roland music files rol finally does anyone have a source for displaying pcx or gif files to ega or vga monitors please help you know it makes sense colin
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	sending a null character across ethernet i have a question regarding sending a null character across ethernet connection the actual problem is that emacs unix editior needs the null character for setting a mark and unfortunately we don t know how to sent that from ibm pcs across ethernet i am wondering if anyboy knows the keyboard combination for sending the null character btw control shift which ctrl does not work thanks saeid
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re can t set com in article c rajn cbnewsh cb att com k bnc cbnewsh cb att com john a siegel writes i have been unable to get com to work diagnostic programs such as msd show nothing installed i think the software options are ok is there a known hardware conflict and or workaround for this problemand cd rom system is a g k dx tower with ati video card ports are set as follows on board coma com irq to external device internal modem com irq dfio port card primary port com irq mouse on board com b com irq does not work i have run this from a boot disk with only command com to eliminate softwar any suggestions before i call technical support john siegel k bnc cbnewsh att com jas hrollie hr att com i had this problem some time ago some bioses do not automatically install com or com in the port tables programs like most modem programs which write directly to the port work fine but anything that uses a bios call fails find a bbs or ftp site where you can get a copy of port finder put device pf sys in your config sys or run pf com from your autoexec bat this little program will locate all existing ports and make sure the bios tables are updated it works great pf will also let you swap ports and such also if that is of any value to you allen mulvey mulvey blurt oswego edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need advice to select sound card hi i need some advice from the netland in selecting a sound card i am about to buy a sound card for my kid i don t know which one to buy which one to select from the following list sound blaster miscrosoft sound card audio spectrum sound blaster pro sound blaster my allocated budget is around could some of you know about sound cards help me to select the most appropriate one for my kid i have mz opti mb i also have nec cdrom that i would like to connect to the sound card thank you kent khioe juno jpl nasa gov
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re funet fi artieb vnet ibm com writes i saw a posting earlier that refered to funet fi directory pub msdos however when i log on to funet fi i cant even find the pub directory let alone the msdos directory can someone tell me what i m doing wrong perhaps you should try nic funet fi instead of funet fi nic funet fi is the biggest ftp site from europe but the stuff available there should also be available at the other site of the big pool perry egelmeers
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ati build drivers good in article c fomu o austin ibm com larryhow austin ibm com writes how stable are the build drivers are people having success installing and running with these i ve been using the build drivers on a gw k dx v for several weeks with no problems i m running windows in x and all software i ve run has worked fine this includes many games and the cd based multi media encyclopedia on which the full motion video works fine i d recommend you give them a try john john gayman wa wbu uucp uunet wa wbu john packet wa wbu wb eah
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gamecards i own an sx mhz mb ram machine and am finding it too slow for certain games such as x wing i was in a computer store there the other day and saw a series of gamecards which claim to speed up your machine to up to mhz i was wondering if anyone out there who has a similar machine had bought one or seen one of these gamecards and whether or not they do actually work any help here would be much appreciated thanks in advance greg when a man lies he murders some part of the world or does he eggman
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re no bit box on gateway i got this from gw from gateway aol com x mailer america online mailer to pastor vfl paramax com subject re bit disk access date mon mar est message id tn aol com status ro jon to get bit access in windows all you have to do is edit the system ini look under the enhanced section and add this line to it bitdiskaccess on this will give you the bitdiskaccess that you need thanks regards scot oehlerking g kscooter gateway
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	eric bosco where are you eric send me your email address i lost it i ve reconsidered kevin
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	pcs from gateway opinions sought sorry if this has been beaten to death on this forum i am looking seriously at buying a dx from gateway i will probably buy it without a monitor as i ve heard negative stuff about gateway monitors i ve also heard its tough to get through to technical support i m seeking opinions on whether or not its wise to go ahead based on criteria such as price warranty service general ruggedness of the system reliability of the machine and of gateway too and so on please advise thanks in advance vasudev murthy vasudev murthy any opinions expressed are strictly murthy asl dl nec com my own and have nothing to do with advanced switching lab nec america inc walnut hill lane irving tx
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	summary doubledisk gold v hi netters as promised here are the summary of opinions on doubledisk gold v people seem to be quite happy with the product there is no much of opinion on how good it is compared to the industry leader stacker superstor pro is not considered since it is slower than stacker although just as reliable byte magazine s conclusion so it s hard to make any decision to go with stacker or with doubledisk gold v however it seems that at it is quite a buy buddy christyono buddy optics ece wisc edu summary of replies hello buddy i do not have dd gold experience i just ordered it i currently have dd the last version i am very pleased with its performance here is my suggestion if you do not have any compression software currently i would go with dos s compression all the discussion on the net indicates that for you get the compression built into the os plus the other utilities that you would pay way more than for besides you are now at dos whatever that means if you have doubledisk already like i do the cost is for the upgrade after thinking about it and asking the net i decided that i could not go wrong with the update cost i have never suffered from performance of dd i have a ms hd with large sw packages in both compressed and uncompressed format it works great not delays i think the a is better than b arguements are a lot of bunk they are all comparable in performance i am looking forward to being able to loadhigh the dd sw that has been an annoyance if you have stacker et al currently i would not see it worth the effort to upgrade just my regards mark bagdy buddy i got the same mailer about weeks ago i got ddg and installed it the documentation was in my opinion easy to follow i used the automatic installation not the custom and everything went smoothly there were some specific instructions on a readme file for dealing with max qemm ddg has an uninstall unlike dos if you need it my system has a mb hard drive before installing ddg i had mb free after ddg i had mb free pretty good statistics considering that my mb permanent windows swap file stayed on the uncompressed portion along with other drivers and such i have had no problems whatsoever i have noticed no slowdown other than it takes a little longer to boot either in windows or dos so far i am a very happy camper bruce bruce f steinke never know when you re going to bsteinke dsd es com need a good piece of rope software technical support engineer sam gamgee evans sutherland computer corp my mail my opinions i have been using doubledisk gold for a little more than a month on a dx mhz mb seagate drive running dos windows in enhanced mode i ran some tests and concluded that the speed of a doubledisk drive with a drive read cache is about equal to the bare drive without a cache i have no complaints about reliability it was very easy to install the only problem i had was with castle wolfenstein d i assumed the game was trying to bypass dos disk access and moved the game to the non compressed region of the disk since then the game has never given me a problem there was never any damage to the doubledisk drive compression performance for the whole disk has held steady around this is lower than expected but about size of my files are compressed image files and some large zip files if you have any more specific questions let me know dan i bought it an have been happy with it i use it on both mfm and ide mb drives i was using doubledisk before gold came out that is the same product msdos is shipping with no problems with either product ron bjornseth bjornset pogo den mmc com end of messages
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	vlb bus master problem i am trying to put together a new pc with vesa local bus i would like to get vlb cards for video and scsi but i have heard of a problem with bus mastering controllers on vlb something to the effect that they will actually slow down a system anyone heard of this problem specifically i am interested in the ultrastor f vlb scsi controller before i shell out the bucks for this thing i would like to get the straight scoop from someone who knows does anyone have this controller any problems with it bob kimball rkimball qualcomm com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re no bit box on gateway in article apr hpcvca cv hp com scott hpcvccl cv hp com scott linn writes while playing around with my gateway local bus machine last night it became apparent that windows didn t give the option for bit access for virtual memory i am using a permanent swap file and the disk drive is on the local bus interface is this expected or should i be investigating further why no bit option appears you need to massage few switches in your system ini in the virtual memory section flip the bitaccess switch on and the associated driver wdctl or some such switch on this will enable bit access but be sure you can use it as not all hard drives and controllers support it for seriously fast disk access throw out windoze install os i did this weekend os is incredible finally a real os for the humble pc tim
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re x on ati ultra w nanao i mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov keith mancus writes reference to running ati s install program and using its functions to position size images at various resolutions i thought this was a neat feature until i noticed that when an image is re sized the scanning frequency is necessarily changed this causes digital multiscan monitors like my mag mx f to get confused as to which mode to use if the frequency gets too far from the standard selections for this reason i use the factory defaults for position size on the ati card and adjust each mode individually only the first time at the monitor the mag and many other multiscan monitors has have the ability to recall these settings the next time each mode is detected edward mcclanahan edm wrs com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re dos i know of two people who have horrer stories about the dos that s of the people i know with dos both have had to reformat their disks and start over i used the standard installation program to put ms dos on my machine with stacker already installed no problems i kept stacker rather than switch i am very pleased with the memory i gained since i did not have a memory manager i also like the multiple boot feature
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how is a null modem cable i am interrested in the extrodinarily simple concept of the null modem cable actually i have no idea so don t count that last statement what i m asking is what pins does it use or what are it s specifications i just want to solder one myself instead of buying one i don t even know what port is used help me please at ke kimmell vax cns muskingum edu kevin p s i m intending to use the cable for pc to pc transfers via lap link or telix ideas and info gladly accepted
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	kentucky fried cmos beats hardees hey folks is it possible to short out your cmos chip i think mine is fried these are the symptoms i have to do the following to get my computer a gateway dx to boot turn the power off disconnect the battery to the cmos chip turn the power on get into setup upon getting the cmos configuration error set up the cmos exit the setup with f phoenix bios ignore the diskette seek error and press f the computer then boots normally both hard drives are accessible but the floppy drives are not i can back up over the network and such but if i need to reboot i have to turn off the computer and repeat the steps above if i simply ctl alt del the computer hangs after the memory test does this sound like the cmos chip is fried can i buy another one where thank you for your kind attention john john c lusth becton dickinson research center rtp nc usa jcl bdrc bd com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wanted your opinions on the insight talon ta or ta multimedia kits for those of you who might be familiar with insight distribution network inc and their multimedia kits i m seriously considering buying the insight talon ta mm kit which is bundled with the cd rom drive with ms access time kb dtr multispin multi session photo cd capability etc and with the pas sound card etc if you are familiar with insight you know the kit i mean i believe the drive is either a texel ms or an nec ms but it is not clear to me which one is actually a part of the bundle at least two of their sales people couldn t give me a straight answer as to which one ah yes one of the drawbacks of oem other questions excuse my ignorance but is texel a reputable maker in the cd rom market or do you think nec is the better drive bottom line is this kit worth the money currently for the ta and for the ta alternatively i was thinking that the ta might be overkill for my uses however i do want full multimedia capabilities photo cd stuff educational programs for my kids etc and considered the lower end ta kit and using the difference around to get something else useful like a tape back up drive unit basically i would just like to hear from those who have actually used these kits and whatever pros cons you might advise preferably directly to the email address below thanks koji koji kodama by nippon motorola ltd ryvg email sps mot com note the opinions expressed herein are mine and do not reflect the opinions or policies of motorola inc or its affiliates
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how hot should the cpu be how hot should the cpu in a dx machine be currently it gets so hot that i can not hold a finger on it for more than s i keep a big fan blowing on it but am considering using a heat sink any advice chris kushmerick kushmer bnlux bnl gov i found my niche in life i just didn t fit in
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re monitors in article c shlj ere trc amoco com zrdf trc amoco com rusty foreman writes has anyone taken a look at the new viewsonic they claim x at hz how does it compare with the t i in terms of price and quality of display i m interested in the new viewsonic as well has anyone seen one of these monitors in the flesh tony
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	mounting cpu cooler in vertical case i just installed a dx cpu in a clone motherboard and tried mounting a cpu cooler on the chip after about hour the weight of the cooler was enough to dislodge the cpu from its mount it ended up bending a few pins on the cpu but luckily the power was not on yet i ended up pressing the cpu deeply into its socket and then putting the cpu cooler back on so far so good have others had this problem how do you ensure that the weight of the cpu fan and heatsink do not eventually work the cpu out of its socket when mounting the motherboard in a vertical case will estes internet westes netcom com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re hint vlb isa eisa motherboard in article c ovwv lmo news iastate edu schauf iastate edu brian j schaufenbuel writes i am looking at buying some companion brand vlb isa eisa motherboards with hint chipsets has anybody had any experience with this board good or bad any information would be helpful thanks brian j schaufenbuel i believe that any vl eisa isa motherboard that uses the hint chipset is limited to bit eisa dma where real eisa dma is bit the hint eisa dma has the mb ram addressing limitation of isa for this reason i would pass i own one of these hawk vl eisa isa and am look ing to replace it for exactly this reason please double check me on this in other words call the motherboard manufacturer and ask them if the motherboard supports true bit eisa dma other than this limitation the motherboard works quite well i am using mine with dos windows and unix s r also with adaptec a eisa scsi host adapter gary korenek korenek nmti com network management technology incorporated sugar land texas
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re soundblaster irq and port settings these lpt com disk controller are call devices there are devices that requires exclusive interrupt ownership eg disk controller i and keyboard i there are also devices that does not require exclusive ownership ie it will share an interrupt with another device eg lpt no in a standard isa bus the one that almost all non laptop pcs use two separate interface cards cannot share an interrupt this is due to a screwup in the bus design for example if your soundblaster wants to drive interrupt number then it must hold a certain bus wire to or at all times depending on whether or not it wants an interrupt this precludes letting another card assert interrupt number when two or more devices in an isa bus pc share an interrupt it s because they re implemented by a single card andrew klossner andrew frip wv tek com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re zeos computers i have had a zeos for a couple months while the experience was not painless or perfect it was way better than that endured by most people i personally know who have ordered gateways of course several of the gateway buyers were rewarded by getting free stuff as gateway can t seem to keep track of what it has or hasn t sent out b i got the mb viper card the first one was defective but zeos replaced it with only minor hassles this one works fine i haven t noticed any problems in any of my applications i also ordered it because of all the complaints about the ati a few months ago guess you can choose either buggy state of the art stuff or robust average stuff for my particular configuration tower watt supply pkg no monitor viper etc the zeos was slightly cheaper than gateway austin etc but this can change from month to month mike
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ibm link to imagewriter help hello i am trying to hook an apple imagewriter to my ibm clone i seem to have a problem configuring my lpt port to accept this how can you adjust baud parity etc to fit the system i tried mode but it did not work if anyone can help post of e mail thanx abort retry format doctor give me the chainsaw trust me i m a scientist larry henson
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re how hot should the cpu be christopher kushmerick kushmer bnlux bnl gov wrote how hot should the cpu in a dx machine be currently it gets so hot that i can not hold a finger on it for more than s i seem to recall that s run somewhere close to the boiling point of water anyone have an exact temperature anyway putting a cpu fan heat sink on it won t hurt and could help depends on how paranoid you are damien neil dpn po cwru edu until someone debugs reality the best case western reserve university i can do is a quick patch here and there cmps eeap linux the choice of a gnu generation erik green
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re orchid p vs fahrenheit mini review in article apr adobe com sherwood adobe com geoffrey sherwood writes in going with the modern trend the orchid p card only supports colors in x mode without a driver of course this breaks any dos program which uses svga modes like most of my cd roms this is not the case the rom on the p supports vesa modes of up to x in colors vesa compliant applications should have no trouble setting these modes but i m forwarding your posting to our software group just in case can t be too careful not that i doubt that your applications are failing to run lots of stuff depends on figuring out which exact svga they re looking at and don t use vesa calls vesa is still pretty new every new chip set confuses them the supported resolutions really annoy me you can do x at hz if you tell the driver you have an nec fg they only have about six monitors listed plus generic and if you choose generic you can t get any high refreshes at all but at x you are limited to hz seems to me that the hardware should be able to support the bandwidth if it can do hz at it sure should be able to do it at higher vertical resolution was the main reason i bought the card over the orchid f vlb i currently have and it will do x x hz as well i think we go to at least hz at x x and maybe more and it s a function of the ramdac speed not the power we need to fix the problems you ve noted they were already on the list if you re really interested though take a look at the text file p res dat which holds the data from which the choices in the p monitor installation program are built working by analogy you can build up a new monitor definition that has the right combinations of refresh rates for your monitors keep a backup copy of the file once you ve built a new version of the p res dat file run the p installation program inst and your new choices should show up this assumes you have the weitek v drivers you can tell the rev number by looking at the modification time of the driver is version microsoft uses this gimmick too the board is faster that the ofvlb for most things according to the hercules speedy program this program tests various operations and reports the results in pixels second i don t have the numbers for the graphite card but they were close to half of the ofvlb ie slower but that was running in a mhz isa so the numbers aren t really comparable the following numbers were all obtained using a mhz air motherboard umc chipset with mb memory i give ranges because the program reports the numbers as it computes them and these tend to jump around a bit the speedy benchmark was put out by hercules and iit who to my knowledge were unencumbered by any motivations except making the hercules graphite iit agx card look really good so i d take the numbers with a ton of salt texas instruments did the same thing with wintach trying to make the look good compared to the as if anyone cared it s safer though not safe to use benchmarks from unbiased sources such as testing labs columnists etc interestingly the solid vectors and shaded polygons show no improvement and hatched polygons ie filled with cross hatching and ternary rops whatever they are graphics operations like xors maybe are a dead loss on the i think you ll a large discrepancy between the results of speedy and the results of anything else in the universe on these things i give two numbers for the fonts because i think they are caching when the fonts are first drawn on the screen they are done fairly slowly the speed of the ofvlb then the speed increases dramatically sounds like programming to a benchmark to me font caching is a perfectly legitimate optimization windows has hooks for it built right into the gdi what s kind of silly is iit s use of a hardwired the quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog then sat on a tack string in their driver not only is it useless in real applications it lacks the programming elegance of the bart simpson optimization in which you save the bitmap of the most recently drawn string in off screen memory and just do a screen to screen bitblit if you happen to be given that same string a second time in a row we call it the bart simpson optimization because bart s the only person we can see benefiting from it he could right i will not cheat on benchmarks a hundred times and be done in half the time it would take to actually form each character i make no claims that these numbers mean anything at all its just what i saw when i ran them on my computer i normally don t write disclaimers but this time maybe i d better my testing is totally unconnected with my work i program under unix on decstations is done completely without the knowledge blessing or equipment of my company we don t have any lawyers they re all working for intel there used to be a lawyer in montana who didn t but he died robert robert plamondon robert weitek com pay no attention to the man behind the curtain i the great and glorious oz have spoken scene from a trade show
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	do the mb ati ultra pro and bit windows drivers work hi there we just bought a dx gateway system with a meg ati ultra pro video card everything seems to work fine except for the windows drivers for x bit and x and x bit modes the fonts and icons start deteriorating after windows startup and within minutes of use everything on the screen is totally unintelligible naturally i called gateway tech support to inquire about this the technician asked me about the drivers and i told him it was version build he told me that the and bit drivers for the ati ultra pro simply do not work is this true if so i m simply amazed how could this be the strange thing is i would have expected to see some discussion on here unless the subject has made the faq one very suspicious point that came up later was that he stated that none of the windows accelerator boards have working and or bit drivers for windows i easily challenged him on that because i ve been running a diamond x in bit mode at home for months now and i have tested and used the bit mode as well he then backed off and said well diamond has been working on those drivers much longer anyway i just wanted to see if anyone else had any trouble and what they did about it any feedback will be appreciated the system configuration is gateway dx local bus megs ram scsi hd cd rom ultrastor f local bus scsi controller ati ultra pro local bus with mb vram dos windows mach drivers version build thanks in advance ali r vali reza magellan ae utexas edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re problems with toshiba cdrom in article apr news columbia edu imj cunixa cc columbia edu imad m jureidini writes hi i recently purchased the toshiba cdrom i own an adaptec b scsi card and i have so far failed to get the cdrom to work under dos it works very well under os so i know that the drive is not faulty in my config sys i have aspi dos sys aspidisk sys aspicd sys in my autoexec bat i have mscdex which came with dos mscdex seems to find and install the drive as drive f but when i switch to that drive and try a dir i get an error message telling me the drive is not ready or something like that the cdrom is locked too and the adaptec utilities don t seem to recognize that i have a cdrom at that point has anyone ever had this problem is there something abvious that i am missing and finally i was wondering if anyone using this setup could kindly post his her config sys and autoexec bat hi one of the aspi drivers i think it s the aspicd supports a norst paramter which means to not reset the scsi bus when it loads this fixed the problem a friend of mine was having with his adaptec tosh regards terje
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	volante warp board i ve been troubleshooting the existence of way too many general protection faults on a eisa vlb system at this point i think i ve narrowed the problem down to the video drivers for the volante warp adapter by national design inc yet somehow i find this hard to believe does anyone else have any experiences with this board thanx robert moskal brooklyn usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	should i get vesa controller card i have a dx mhz with local bus would i see much of an increase in speed in my drives if i got a vesa ide controller card i need advice jimmy buddenberg internet jbuddenberg vax cns muskingum edu muskingum college
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	what dma s are my system using hello i am having a small problem with my sound blaster pro and a game is there a utility out there that would tell me what dma s my system is using thanks mark brown
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re need info on diamond viper video card experiences with diamond viper vlb video card several problems the ad specified million colors at x resolution with mb of vram which is what i have this color depth is not supported with video bios version and drivers version a max of k colors are supported at x and x resolutions with mb vram with the k color choice i notice two minor irritations a under ndw when an entry in a list is highlighted such as in an open menu and then is deselected a faint vertical line often remains where the left edge of the highlighted rectangle used to be b with word for windows when you use shading in a table the display shows the inverse of the shading for example if you shade the cell as the display is the printout is ok the big killer bug is using the borland c integrated development environment the problem occurs when you click on the turbo debugger icon or use the debugger option in the run command and the debugger application goes to vga character mode as it is designed to do the screen goes haywire and is largely unreadable the turbo debugger display is all garbled through trial and error i have found that when the disrupted screen is displayed you should do alt spacebar followed by the letter r this instructs turbo debugger to refresh the screen and it does this satisfactorily i wish i didn t have to do this the bug is more than with the diamond drivers the same disruptive behavior happens with the standard vga driver that comes with windows there must be something in the video card that mishandles the vga mode the problem is not my monitor the same bug shows up when i use another monitor in place of my usual one i still like this video card and am hoping its problems will be remedied they do offer a year warranty swh apr
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how do i put an hd on an xt this may be a dumb question but i need to put a hard drive on my father s pc xt either mfm rll or ide i know how to hook it up but how do i tell the computer the geometry of the drive on my you set it in the bios but i doubt that s how it s done on an xt i thought it might be software with the controller card but the ide card for xt s that i saw didn t come with any also how do i low level format it once it s on the computer assuming a drive which needs formatting advthanksance rob rxg ultb isc rit edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	the p t hay all has anyone out there heard of any performance stats on the fabled p t i was wondering what it s performance compared to the and or pentium would be any info would be helpful later bob robert novitskey rrn po cwru edu cwru cleve ohio computer engineer and c programmer now seeking summer jobs
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	where can i buy a bios i m in the market to upgrade my bios to a phoenix got a new hard disk discovered my bios doesn t have a type and i would like know where i can purchase one of these things i checked with the motherboard manufacturer for the curious it s from mylex and hearing the figure prompted me to at least try to shop around problem is i don t know where to shop around for something like this i have heard that there s a bios speciality shop in the south bay and it s been alleged that they advertise in the microtimes did find the microtimes didn t find the ad or the shop so can anybody help me out on this quest to anybody who replies to this thanks in advance jeff chan these are my opinions it jeff ikos com not ikos netcom com would be quite silly if it netcom ikos jeff was also my company s
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re non turbo speed nic percival x nmp mfltd co uk wrote just taken delivery of a mhz dx machine and very nice it is too one query the landmark speed when turbo is on is or something mhz thats not the problem the problem is the speed when turbo is off its mhz the equivalent in car terms is having a nice porsche with a button that turns it into a skateboard does anyone have a clue as to what determines the relative performance of turbo vs non turbo i would like to set it to give a landmark speed of about or mhz with turbo off cheers it should be halved that of turbo ie mhz
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re how is a loopback connector made uwovax uwo ca wrote i need to know the pins to connect to make a loopback connector for a serial port so i can build one the loopback connector is used to test the serial port thanks for any help steve me too skcgoh tartarus uwa edu au
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re hint vlb isa eisa motherboard in article id xnfz vj nmti com korenek nmti com gary korenek writes in article c ovwv lmo news iastate edu schauf iastate edu brian j schaufenbuel writes i am looking at buying some companion brand vlb isa eisa motherboards with hint chipsets has anybody had any experience with this board good or bad any information would be helpful thanks brian j schaufenbuel i believe that any vl eisa isa motherboard that uses the hint chipset is limited to bit eisa dma where real eisa dma is bit the hint eisa dma has the mb ram addressing limitation of isa for this reason i would pass i own one of these hawk vl eisa isa and am look ing to replace it for exactly this reason please double check me on this in other words call the motherboard manufacturer and ask them if the motherboard supports true bit eisa dma other than this limitation the motherboard works quite well i am using mine with dos windows and unix s r also with adaptec a eisa scsi host adapter gary korenek korenek nmti com network management technology incorporated sugar land texas you are correct the motherboard manufacturer where i usually buy boards says that they will have this problem fixed in about two weeks brian schaufenbuel brian j schaufenbuel there is no art which one government sooner learns helser halsted than that of draining money from the pockets of the ames ia people especially college students adam smith
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re floppy only reads what it wrote in article netxcom netx com pdressne netxcom netx com peter dressner writes i have a gateway with a floppy the drive only reads files it wrote to the floppy floppies that have been formatted and contain files from other machines are unreadable also floppies that were written by this defective floppy drive a long time ago are also unreadable this sounds like a head alignment problem too right it does how does one go about fixing it are there alignment screws that you can adjust the very very first thing you do is make sure that all files on the floppies that you can currently read in the drive which aren t already on your hd or another floppy if you have two floppy drives get copied to your hd and or to a floppy in your other drive if you don t do this before fixing the alignment problem you have kissd those files goodbye well you can try to re misalign the drive back to read your floppies but don t count on be able to do so generally head alignment is something i d only trust to a good repair shop though there are have been diy guides nick fitzgerald pc applications consultant csc uni of canterbury n z n fitzgerald csc canterbury ac nz tel fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway ethernet card drivers needed hi all could anybody please tell me where i might be able to find device drivers for a couple of older gateway ethernet cards i don t have the model number off hand but they have only a bnc connector and a header connector for a novell keycard one has one installed i m looking at using these with a node copy of net that i picked up at a swap meet i d love to do lantastic or netware lite but i m a poor college student and the price was right please reply via email as i haven t had a lot of time for news because of exams and such mike gordon n loi mwgordon nyx cs du edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	otronics attache luggable info needed hi all i m looking for some info regarding an old pcmade by otronics or maybe oltronics called the attache this little beauty is an z luggable with a or inch screen monochrome cga and floppies for serial ports it has db connectors one is labled printer and i can t figure out the pinouts for them i also don t know if they are standard com ports addressable as com and com i have figured out that they ll only work with dos something if anyone can give me some pointers on this one i d be most appreciative please reply via email as i can t keep up with news lately finals are coming up you know thanks much mike gordon n loi mwgordon nyx cs du edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help with hooking irwin tape drive to pc i would like to thank all those people who responded to my post i would however like to clear some things up my tape drive is external also the connector on the back of it is of the male db pin variety as a result i cannot easily find a cost effective solution to use the drive any advice will be greatly appreciated i would prefer email thanks tony shan tonys uiuc edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	for sale sound blaster card hurry well it seems that i have a soundblaster card for sale since i recently purchased a sbpro the card comes complete in mint condition with box manuals docs disks and original packaging make an offer canadian inquiries prefered respond before april e mail at acps ryevm ryerson ca j m
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re do the mb ati ultra pro and bit windows drivers work in article ut emx uucp reza magellan ae utexas edu alireza vali writes hi there we just bought a dx gateway system with a meg ati ultra pro video card everything seems to work fine except for the windows drivers for x bit and x and x bit modes the fonts and icons start deteriorating after windows startup and within minutes of use everything on the screen is totally unintelligible naturally i called gateway tech support to inquire about this the technician asked me about the drivers and i told him it was version build he told me that the and bit drivers for the ati ultra pro simply do not work is this true if so i m simply amazed how could this be the strange thing is i would have expected to see some discussion on here unless the subject has made the faq one very suspicious point that came up later was that he stated that none of the windows accelerator boards have working and or bit drivers for windows i easily challenged him on that because i ve been running a diamond x in bit mode at home for months now and i have tested and used the bit mode as well he then backed off and said well diamond has been working on those drivers much longer anyway i just wanted to see if anyone else had any trouble and what they did about it any feedback will be appreciated the system configuration is gateway dx local bus megs ram scsi hd cd rom ultrastor f local bus scsi controller ati ultra pro local bus with mb vram dos windows mach drivers version build i have been able to successfully use both and bit color modes on my gateway system although my setup is less complicated than yours it sounds as if you may have a hardware conflict or problem is your memory aperture above m i have heard rumors of incompatibilities with that scsi card with a variety of systems call up gateway and give them hell until they help you fix it dan daniel matthew coleman internet dcoleman utxvms cc utexas edu dcoleman ccwf cc utexas edu the university of texas at austin decnet utxvms dcoleman electrical computer engineering bitnet dcoleman utxvms bitnet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re vl bus hdd fdd controller or ide hdd fdd controller in article hpsgm sgp hp com taybh hpsgm sgp hp com beng hang tay writes hi i am buying a quantum lps at mb hardisk and is deciding a hdd fdd controller is bit vl bus hdd fdd controller faster than bit ide hdd fdd controller card no vl bus ide is no faster than isa ide the ide interface is fundamentally nothing more than an extension of the isa bus and if you hook it to vl bus it ll work as fast as the slower of the two meaning isa speed i hear that the vl bus controller is slower than a ide controller on the other hand i wouldn t expect it to be slower richard krehbiel richk grebyn com os will do for me until amigados for the comes along
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need help identifying serial board i need some help with a multi port serial board of unknown origin i m hoping someone knows what this board is or even better what the various switches and jumbers are used for anyway here s description of the card it is a bit card although i noticed that none of the contacts in the bit extension are connected to anything it has ns an chips in sockets and corresponding connecters labeled com com there is also an external female connector with pins there are banks of switches banks of switches and jumpers i believe that i have determined by following traces that sw and sw switches in all control the interrupt level for each of the com ports sw are for irq sw are for irq and sw are for irq the other switches are beyond my meager ability to follow the only identification printed on the board is multi serial port board across the bottom there is a box for serial number but it is blank immediately below the words serial no but not in the box left for the s n are the numbers anyone have any clues your help is greatly appreciated dwayne stratsft uucp we have ways to make you scream dwayne bailey intel advertisement strategic software in the june doctor dobbs journal redford michigan
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	actix graphicsengine plus i just bought an actix graphics engine plus with megs i am not impressed i have been having all sorts of problems with the board various lock ups in windows problems with the screen not centering no flexibilty in choosing synch rates for a monitor buggy windows drivers lack of x x k driver if anyone else has one of these cards please e mail me looks like i m going to try the ati ultra plus brad bach udel edu brad cain n naf cain snow white ee udel edu university of delaware electrical engineering cain freezer cns udel edu blah blah blah alt blah
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re a drive won t boot balog eniac seas upenn edu eric j balog writes hi i recently switched my drive to a the problem is while i can read and write to both the new a and b correctly i can t boot from a floppy in a i ve checked the cmos settings it is set for floppy seek at boot and boot order a c once i had a floppy that did not have the systems files on it in a i got a message telling me to put a disk systems disk in the drive it didn t work when i do have a systems disk in the a drive this is what happens power on and memory test a light comes on b light comes on followed by a short beep hd light comes on for an instant b light comes on again then nothing happens the light goes off there is no disk activity of any kind and the screen blanks i can t even use ctrl alt del any suggestions have you checked the setting of drive a to m floppy the setting of drive b to m foppy the cable connecting the two drives to the controller card i can t remember which two wires are swapped but they determine which is drive a b i hope this is of some help steve s minyos xx oz au
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re simms and sipps mb needed yuri atmos washington edu writes i need simms and sipps mb but price should be around piece i assume you are talking about meg x simms or meg x sipps with speed of ns i would take k pieces per week if you have that price fob us port i am not waiting for an offer with that price i could only dream tiger i am waiting for an offer yuri yulaev th ave ne seattle wa home work fax internet yuri atmos washington edu uucp uw beaver atmos washington edu yuri
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	disk data compression and interleave does anyone have enough experience to report whether disk data compression has any effect on the optimal disk sector interleave offhand i expect that the time required to decompress disk data would increase the optimum disk sector interleave alan hinds
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	chaining ide drives hi i am trying to set up a conner and a quantum at drive i have the conner set to the master and the quantum set to the slave doesn t work the other way around i am able to access both drives if i boot from a floppy but the drives will not boot themselves i am running msdos and have the conner partitioned as primary dos and is formatted with system files i have tried all different types of setups and even changed ide controller cards if i boot from a floppy everything works great except the booting part the system doesn t report an error message or anything just hangs there does anyone have any suggestions or has somebody else run into a similar problem i was thinking that i might have to update the bios on one of the drives is this possible any suggestions answers would be greatly appreciated please reply to jason badry badry cs ualberta ca
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi in article apr julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes stuff deleted so the lowly low density original pc fdd card used dma and the pc at hdd controller doesn t that makes real sense actually it does make a reasonable amount of sense fixed disk sectors are buffered by the controller and transferring them to memory with a rep insw or whatever the instruction is called is quite efficient single instruction goes as fast as the controller cpu know how to use the bus since the wasn t cached the bus is likely a critical resource relative to cpu performance and it s possible that dma bus interference would cause as much or more loss of cpu cycles for computing as does the rep insw sequence the floppy on the other hand is not buffered so that using the cpu for floppy data transfer as was done on the pc jr by the way really does stink wally bass
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re date is stuck in article apr oec orbital dialix oz au oecjtb oec orbital dialix oz au john bongiovanni writes stuff deleted did i once hear that in order for the date to advance something like a clock has to make a get date system call apparently the clock hardware interrupt and bios don t do this date advance automatically the get date call notices that a midnight reset flag has been set and then then advances the date anybody with more info there are two problems the bios tod routine which updates the bios clock uses only bit for day increment so a second wrapping of the clock past midnight will get lost if no one calls the bios to read the clock in the meantime and the bios resets the day wrap indicator on the first get date call from anybody after the wrap indicator has been set so unless the first bios get date call after midnight is done by the dos kernel which is the only part of dos which knows how to increment the date the day wrap indication is normally lost my guess is that kevin s menu system uses bios calls to read the clock in order to display the time and is hence the entity which causes the day wrap indication to get lost even if the menu system notices the day wrap which i think is indicated by a non zero value in al there really isn t any particularly good way to tell dos about it so that dos can update the day the menu system should use dos calls to get the time which would cause the dos kernel to do the bios call and the wrap indicator would hence be processed properly possibly though the menu system can t easily use dos calls for time because dos is not reentrant and perhaps time incrementing ofters occur while the menu system is inside some other dos call wally bass
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re amd i clones now legal in us poe wharton upenn edu writes a friend of mine called me on the phone and told me he was wathcing cnn and saw a report that the ruling prohibiting amd from selling their i clones has been thrown out making it legal for amd to ship in the us can anyone out there verify this thanks in advance phil yep this was on the news great news for consumers bad news for intel
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re diamond stealth giving winmarks on my dx with the stealth vlb i get winmarks with ver
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re atari mono and vga in article apr oregon uoregon edu arosborn oregon uoregon edu alan osborn writes in article apr tdb uu se m max tdb uu se max brante writes have anybody succeded in converting a atari monomchrome monitor into a mono vga monitor if so please let me know exactly how you did and what graphics card you used i wish i could help i posted a similar question about two weeks ago i got no response at all i ve asked locally at my friendly atari store i was told that it should be possible but that they had no idea how it might be done nor did they particularly care to investigate please if anyone has any suggestions post them you might try asking on one of the comp sys ibm echos the best one may be comp sys ibm pc hardware i say this because the conversion seems more geared toward a pc user wanting to use that monitor than an atari user who already can use the monitor unless maybe they want to really go wild converting the monitor to vga then using it as a vga monitor with a falcon as for graphics cards assuming that the atari monitor can be modified adapted to handle vga signals you should probably be able to use any vga card at least with a res around x i haven t tried this but that would be my guess robert anisko anisko usdtsg daytonoh ncr com you might want to price mono vga monitors anyways it may be cheaper to go that route than to do the conversion besides with the falcon and beyond vga svga multisync monitors will probably be the way to go
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	multi i o card with uart s is it possible to buy a serial i o card with the uart s built in rather than having to buy them separately and socketing them in my current i o card uses s correct number the braindead ones anyway it also controls two floppy drives and two ide hard drives ideally i d like to get a new multi i o card that had serial ports with s and could also control another ide hd s it would have to have configurable addresses for both the serial ports and the ide controller so it could co exist with my existing card does such a beast exist now the hard part where can i get one in australia preferably brisbane thanks geoff green spart cs uq oz au
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re problems with toshiba cdrom in article r nt oa ratatosk uninett no hktth nho hydro com writes in article apr news columbia edu imj cunixa cc columbia edu imad m jureidini writes hi i recently purchased the toshiba cdrom i own an adaptec b scsi card and i have so far failed to get the cdrom to work under dos it one of the aspi drivers i think it s the aspicd supports a norst paramter which means to not reset the scsi bus when it loads this fixed the problem a friend of mine was having with his adaptec tosh regards terje it worked thank you very much imj cunixa cc columbia edu imad hexabyte jureidini the ultimate knight grand priest of the secrets of the undefined
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cpu temperature vs cpu activity this may be a very naive question but is there any basis for the claim that a cpu will get hotter when a computationally intensive job is running my friend claims that there will be little difference in the temperature of an idle cpu and a cpu running a computationally intensive job lino montuno
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	test don t read gosh i think i just installed a virus it was called ms dos don t copy that floppy burn it i just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	color drivers i would appreciate the driver name from cica which functions as a color driver for a quadtel video card the type of chip or chipset used would suffice as well umeister u washington edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re g k jumbo backup problems in article apr den mmc com snorman den mmc com writes i have a colorado memory systems jumbo tape backup unit in my gateway v tower system i have found the supplied backup capability to be fairly unreliable in approx cases out of i have had the backup fail at one point or another often hanging in the middle of writing the tape seek errors drive communication errors seem to be most common i use the dos backup software from colorado memory systems should i return the drive get some better backup software reformat the tapes am using cms tapes any hints would be appreciated this stuff is to time consuming to do over and over again until it cooperates i ve been using an identical setup except for the tower config for several months now from previous discussions on the net the first thing to check for is dma conflicts with other devices especically if you ve got any funky ones next off suspect your tape try a fresh one good luck tim
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re diamond stealth giving winmarks pc mag only got around winmarks when they tested the steal it sounds like you are ok jamesc if someone asks if you are a god you say yes
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re how is a loopback connector made uwovax uwo ca writes i need to know the pins to connect to make a loopback connector for a serial port so i can build one the loopback connector is used to test the serial port thanks for any help from a recent byte magazine i got the following question and part of the answer deleted if you are handy with a soldering iron the loopback plugs are easy to make on a serial rs nine pin port use a female db connector and connect pins to to to and to to for serial rs pin ports you ll need a female db connector with pins to to to to to to to to to and to connected to test a centronics pin parallel port you ll need to connect pins to to to to and to in a male db connector stan wszola i haven t tried it use at own risk kkc etobkkc hisoy etn ericsson se
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	any comments on eisa bus book hello i have the following list of books about isa eisa buses isa system architecture by tom shanley don anderson mindshare press eisa system architecture by tom shanley don anderson mindshare press isa eisa pc xt at e isa isa and eisa i o timing and specs by edward solari copyright isbn at bus design by edward solari copyright isbn interfacing to the ibm pc xt by eggebrecht lewis c copyright do you have any comments on any of them please reply by e mail thanks in advance manolis stratakis
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	smc e arcnet cars for sale ea i have new smc e arcnet cards for sale they are brand new each wow cup portal com wally waggoner
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	hayes jt fax card for sale i have a like new hayes jt fax for sale or offer or trade wally waggoner wow cup portal com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	list of ide harddisk specs configuration of ide harddisks last update collected by carsten grammes ph hucg rz uni sb de and published regularly on comp sys ibm pc hardware there is explicitly no warranty that the given settings are correct or harmless i only collect i do not check for myself there is always the possibility that the settings may destroy your hardware since i hope however that only well minded people undergo the effort of posting their settings the chance of applicability exists if you should agree or disagree with some setting let me know immediately in order to update the list if you possess a hd not mentioned here of which you know bios and or jumper settings please mail them to me for the next update of the list only ide at bus harddisks will be accounted for if not specified the landing zone should be set equal to the number of cylinders if not specified the write precompensation should be set there are bioses that don t even ask for it another statement maybe right ide harddisk don t have precomp and lzone the precomp is a built in parameter and lzone isn t used because most if not every ide disk has autopark the jumpers names are given as printed on the hd s board often only a jumper number jp means the jumper a zero means that the jumper is left open a one means that the jumper is closed c o n n e r conner peripherals drive geometry ide at conner drives are low level formatted at the factory it is only necessary to run setup fdisk and dos format model heads cylinders sectors pcomp l zone type table led cp ut n a cp ut n a cp ut n a cp ut a cp ut a cp ut a cp ut b cp ut b cp ut b cp ut b cp e ut c cp e ut c cp ut c cp ut d cp ut d cp ut d cp ut b table table jumper settings jumper settings single drive jumper act and c d single drive jumper c d master drive jumper act c d and dsp master drive jumper c d dsp slave drive no jumpers installed slave drive no jumpers installed table all conner mbyte drives use jumper settings drive type all conner mbyte drives use drive type single master drive jumper c d slave drive no jumpers installed ut universal translate select a drive type that is close to but does not exceed the megabyte capacity of the drive the drive will translate to the megabyte capacity that you have selected led a b c d j j j j pin pin pin pin pin pin pin pin when i installed a conner cp f mb as master and a wd caviar mb as slave both with and without the cp jumper the caviar had seemingly normal behaviour however when doing writes to the caviar once in a while it would overwrite directories etc using fastback was almost impossible the workaround is to install the caviar as the master and the conner as the slave f u j i t s u details of fujitsu drives m xt standard m et m et m et m t heads physical cyl physical sec trk speed rpm capacity mb mb mb mb psu cnh led cnh cnh connector o o way ide pin function position active mode slave present mode pin iochrdy cnh jumpers pin reserved drive system drive system pin irq pin reserved pin irq pin reserved pin function position slave drive mode cnh jumpers master drive mode ecc bytes ecc bytes pin function position write protect enabled cnh jumpers write protect disabled reserved key i guess marks factory default setting for jumper bios settings bios setting for the m et in my system is cylinders sectors and heads i was trying to set my ide drive in the subject above to a slave drive for a conner mb drive and contacting the support company gave me this answer which works the factory default on sw is on off off off off off this sets the drive to be a single drive setting sw to off on on off off off makes it a slave drive sw has been set to on off off on all along model cylinders heads sectors capacity million bytes m t m t m t there are switches on the switch block on these drives only of them have a use that i am aware of from my m t manual master slave master sw off slave sw on ecc bytes bytes sw off bytes sw on write protect disabled sw off enabled sw on io channel ready disabled sw off enabled sw on i have no idea about the function of sw and sw the values listed with a are the factory default settings k a l o k kalok kl mb bios cyl heads sectors kalok kl mb bios cyl heads sectors the following jumper settings have been reported for kl but are probably also valid for other kalok drives single hd o o o o o o o o o o same row as pin of the ide connector master disk o o o o o o o o o o slave o o o o o o o o o o these pairs of pins are at the righthand side of the disk m a x t o r model cyls heads sectors precomp landing zone lxt a lxt a lxt a lxt a lxt a jumpers are as follows the bottom of the drive looks like this well sort of o o o o o o o o o o power ide connector single drive dual drive system pin numbers jumper system master slave slave drive remove remove install activity led optional optional optional slave present remove remove optional master drive remove install remove sync spindle remove n a optional remove only one drive the master in an array should have this jumper installed maxtor a j closed j closed maxtor a j open j open maxtor a j closed j open maxtor a j open j closed maxtor a j closed j closed maxtor a j open j open maxtor a j closed j open maxtor a j open j closed maxtor a j jumpers for the above drives j i o channel ready open disabled close enabled j see above j see above j operation status open normal close factory j j j j j power data cable j idle mode latch open disabled close enabled j drive model open a close a j ecc bytes open bytes close bytes master slave drive is master and alone j closed j closed drive is master of two drives j closed j open drive is slave of two drives j open j closed maxtor a default power up at bios translation parameters others possible cyl hds spt mbytes there are two sets of jumpers a set of and a set of with the power and ide connector toward you the set of is numbered left to right j j and the set of is numbered bottom to top j j the only jumper of normal interest is j jumper it for only drive in a single drive system or master drive in a dual drive system remove the jumper j for slave drive in a dual drive system j is a dummy and may be used to store the spare shunt if the drive is configured for a slave mode jumpers j j j j are factory reserved abnormal operation may occur if jumpered jumper is sync spindle enabled disabled open disabled jumper is sync slave master open slave jumper is i o channel ready open disabled maxtor a mb ide self parking universal translate drive type user defineable cyl hds wpc lz s t wpc and lz optional master j closed slave j open use j for shunt storage single j closed m i c r o p o l i s drive a a unformatted mb formatted mb platters heads cylinders performance both track to track read msec track to track write msec average msec max msec avg rotational latency msec rotational speed rpm data transfer rate upto mbytes sec internal data rate mbits sec bios settings a cyl heads sectors a master cyl heads sectors slave cyl heads sectors the a emulates both master and slave jumpers labelled j on the drive oo w only these are used oo w oo oo oo w w in in a only drive emulates both master slave in out drive is master slave is present out in drive is slave out out drive is master no slave present ie single drive m i c r o s c i e n c e microscience model heads cylinders s t size m model size m hd sec cyl m i n i s c r i b e miniscribe model at cap cyc h rwc wpc enc rate access spt comments at ms at ms at ms master slave single shunt storage n e c nec d mb bios cyl head sect nec d mb bios cyl head sect nec d mb bios cyl head sect wpcom lzone jumper jp jp for all above nec drives single master slave there have been reported difficulties in using wd caviar as master and nec drives as slave the other way it works q u a n t u m logical specs for quantum at drives compliments of computer brokers of canada model cap avg acc cylinders heads sectors track mb ms at at at at at at lps at lps at lps at lps at lps at legend jumper installed no jumper at jumpers ds ss meaning single drive configuration master of dual drive slave of dual drive self seek test at jumpers ds sp ss meaning slave when the master is quantum prodrive other than a slave in prodrive a mode slave when master is non quantum drive not used master drive pdiag mode checking dasp for slave master in pdiag mode using sp to check if slave present master in a mode using sp to check if slave present single drive lps at jumpers ds sp dm meaning slave in standard pdiag mode for compatibility with drives that use pdiag line to handle master slave communications slave in prodrive a mode compat without using pdiag line self test self test master in pdiag mode using dasp to check for slave master in a mode using dasp to check for slave master in pdiag mode using sp to check for slave without checking dasp master in a mode using sp to check for slave without checking dasp while my spec form marked the jumper name dm it is labeled as cs on my lps at drive the quantum els series model cap avg acc cylinders heads sectors track mb ms els at els at els at els at write precomp for all quantum drives probably no significance landing zone cylinders straps if an els drive is master only use ds master with slave ds or ds and sp in some cases slave no strap r o d i m e information for ro a and ro a series hard disk drives drive types model cyls hds sectors trk no blocks formatted cap ro a mbyets ro a mbyets ro a mbyets ro a mbyets ro a mbyets ro a mbyets ro a mbyets ro a mbyets ro a mbyets ro a mbyets ro a mbyets link options in order to install the rodime ro a series drives the dumpers for the single dual drive and led operation on the drive need to be set as described in the relevant product specification i a single drive environment the drive is described as a master in a dual drive environment the drives are described as a master and a slave this is due to the protocal the takes place between the two drives when performing diagnostics there are four links lk lk lk and lk adjacent to the way interface connector they have the following functions and are described in order as viewed from the end of the drive with the first jumper described nearest the way interface connector lk led when fitted this jumper connects the led drive to pin of the interface this allows a led to be connected to the interface an external current limiting resistor needs to be fitted in series with the led when this option is selected the value of the resistor will be dependant on the led type chosen but will be in the range of ohms ot ohms lk dual drives this jumper must be fitted when two drives are attached to a single bus it fallows communication across the way interface connector indicating to the master drive the presence of a slave lk master when fitted this signifies that the drive jumpered is a master if there are two drives connected on a single bus then only one may be jumpered in this way lk iochrdy when fitted this connects the iochrdy signal to the drive it is fitted when the drive is used in host systems that have a higher data transfer rate than the drive i e greater than mbytes per second when using interleave this jumper is not normally fitted as most hosts transfer at a lower rate than mbytes per second there are four possible master slave configurations in which a drive s may be jumpered master single drive with led on interface lk lk fitted master single drive without led on interface lk only fitted master dual drive without led on interface lk lk fitted slave dual drive without led on interface no jumpers fitted master dual drive with led on interface lk lk lk fitted slave dual drive with led on interface lk only fitted the master drive will delay power up for approximately two seconds to reduce power surges in applications where dual drives are used the other connections for a led will be found close to the way connector at the other end of the drive this led driver is not affected by the link options an internal current limiting resistor is on the drive for this led driver refer to the product specification for further details s e a g a t e there is a list of most seagate hd including mfm scsi esdiand ide on every simtel mirror under msdos dskutl seagate zip it contains info about the following drives st a st a st a st a st a st a st a st a st ax st a st a st a st a st a st a st a st a st a st a st a st a st a st a st a st a st a st a st a st a st a st a st a st ax t e a c model sd cyls heads sect t precmp lzone capacity physical bios ami m award m phoenix m connectors and jumpers jumper function on act selected ext led off slv present selected on two hdd s j j j off single hdd power power signal jumpers on master single off slave with units used on i o ch rdy not output off i o ch rdy is output master slave settings jumper no single on jumpered master off not jumpered slave w e s t e r n d i g i t a l caviar series name size mb cylinders heads sectors wdac wdac wdac wdac wdac wdac please note that these are the recommended cmos parameters all the disks support so called dynamic translation and should thus be able to work with any parameters having fewer sectors than the total number of sectors on the disk now according to the manual the jumper settings are as follows jumper cp ma sl single master slave slave with conner cp or cp maybe there are kinds of caviar s floating around if your jumpers read ma sl and si then use jumper si ma sl single master slave there have been reported difficulties in using wd caviar as master and nec drives as slave the other way it works when i installed a conner cp f mb as master and a wd caviar mb as slave both with and without the cp jumper the caviar had seemingly normal behaviour however when doing writes to the caviar once in a while it would overwrite directories etc using fastback was almost impossible the workaround is to install the caviar as the master and the conner as the slave wd a mb bios settings cyln heads sect lzone wenn sie sie braucht drive is master cable drive is slave second drive is a conner drive no jumper set this is the only drive useful telephone numbers miniscribe maxtor info tech support fax back bbs they list their number as maxtor quantum support fax bbs seagate info tech support fax back bbs last but not least if i could help you with my little collection and if you live in a part of the world far away from me how about a postcard for my pinboard i will surely answer carsten grammes experimental physics b og universitaet saarbruecken w saarbruecken germany
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	protected mode is there anybody who has or can point me in the right direction any information about protected mode also interested in protected mode viewed from a os point of view thanks in advance kjetil kolin
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	parity error system halted anyone have any ideas i recently bought an amd the motherboard booklet says the board is a wb h i have x simms on board the machine also uses a super ide i o card model pt of course niether the motherboard or the i o card booklet clearly state who the manufacurers are i m also using a trident c svga card anyway that s all of the pertinent info i can think of my problem is that the computer often freezes or displays parity error system halted messages depending on whether i set the memory parity error checking to disabled or enabled in the setup of the bios makes sense its ami bios so it must be an ami board i just took it back to the dealer and they replaced all of the simms but i keep getting the same error more frequently now it all worked at the dealer and didn t start screwing up till i got home figures i ve tried to take out all of the simms and even re inserted them in reverse order making sure that the connections were solid my suspicion jumps to this damn all in one hd controller serial parallel game port i o card or to the motherboard god forbid can anyone help thanks peace david geller gelldav elof acc iit edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	any info on cyrix dru chip cyrix have released a pin conpatible clone designed to upgrade old mhz s the chips are also clockdoubling thus a mhz can be transformed into a mhz with a single chip upgrade unfortunately in australia the dru sells for a mhz and a mhz about x the price of a dx motherboard with two vlb slots how much do these thing cost in the states how well do they work thanks for any info steven pemberton o notebook sjp ogre apana org au os
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re what is at bus clk speed in article apr debbie cc nctu edu tw is cc nctu edu tw wei shi hwu writes robert desonia robert desonia hal k ann arbor mi us wrote s there is one param in the bios setup that says at bus clk i have s it set to the default of but was able to get it to work with s the si at was something i didnt want to mess anything up s so i set it back to also the pc didnt boot with it set at s s what exactlt dows this do and should i leave it at i think it s impossible to let at bus operated too much more than mhz i have a c t neat mother board and i set the at bus clock to mhz but the hd stopped when it boot so it s correct that clk n means how many wait states sm i think it all depends on your motherboard and the cards you have in your system your hd stopped boot probably because your hd controller can t handle the faster bus speed i have a dx i set my bus divider to clk that is close to mhz i can gain singificant performace increase on my video card and harddisk transfer rate when i boost the bus speed and my system work flawlessly under this setting and you know what when i go to clk mhz bus my hd refuse to boot just my cent jim
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide low level format in article c h yl f news cso uiuc edu mandel romulus ehs uiuc edu hector mandel writes i accidentally tried to low level format my western digital caviar drive is there a public domain or shareware utility available that will allow me to fix it thanks i am no expert on this but i am pretty sure there is no way to recover this ide drive has mapping information written directly on drives when you low level format it the information itself is gone as well i don t think you can get it back unless you send it back to western digital and ask them to refurbish it for you jim
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help blowing the stack hi everyone i have a question regarding my stack on my pc i am programming in turbo c and my program is rather large model large too i keep getting errors that i am running out of memory after a while of running the program when i compile the program it says i have meg of ram so i can t seem to explain why it crashes all it is doing is running in a loop while the operator is idle and after a while of sitting it will screw up all the variables this leads me to believe that my stack is filling up and overflowing does the program take memory up when it is calling void functions that do not return anything i have been working on this problem for days and i would really appreciate any responce if this is not the correct newsgroup i will gladly re post but this is the only i could find thanks in advance sean mars email mars carroll cc edu carroll college waukesha wi
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help advice i own an k clone which does all i want except run game i want to buy the game says it requires a with k game tech support says game will run on but uses a some digitized graphics which would make it run really slow it s a card game hoyles classic card games digitized graphics are photos artwork of game fictional card players what can i do to speed up how this game would run short of an motherboard upgrade co processor accelerator card mimicking my can run at mhz any advice would be greatly appreciated gil guf psuvm psu edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re modems and uarts ryan jeffrey baucom rjbaucom eos ncsu edu wrote what is a uart i don t know the exact meaning of uart but i think it is something like universal arithmetic receiver transmitter normally the older boards have a or uart on board those chips generate an irq for every char they received the uart has an internal byte buffer so with the right software installed it generates an irq every chars what does it do for high speed modems is it necessary for k or higher throughput if you ran dos you don t need a because dos runs only one task at a time and the whole cpu power could be used for the transfer but if you are running a multitasking os such as os unix etc windows the cpu cannot work the whole time with one task the result are lost characters or broken transmissions because of timeouts is it only for internal modems no the only diffrence is that internal modems have the uart on board whereas external modems are connected to the computer over a serial port which has the uart on board if you have any experience with or higher speed modems please let me know what you think also any particular brand name reccomended or will a cheapo clone do just a well i use a zyxel b with a uart under coherent i m very satisfied with it but i think that nearly everyone is satisfied with his own modem michael michael jester gun de michael gerhards preussenstrasse germany neuss voice
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide cable i just bought a new ide hard drive for my system to go with the one i already had my problem is this my system only had a ide cable for one drive so i had to buy cable with two drive connectors on it and consequently have to switch cables the problem is the new hard drive s manual refers to matching pin on the cable with both pin on the drive itself and pin on the ide card but for the life of me i cannot figure out how to tell which way to plug in the cable to align these secondly the cable has like a connector at two ends and one between them i figure one end goes in the controler and then the other two go into the drives does it matter which i plug into the master drive and which into the slave any help appreciated thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help adding a scsi drive i have a sx computer with a mg seagate ide drive and a controler built into the motherboard i want to add a scsi drive a quantum prodrive f mg formatted i have no documentation at all and i need your help as i understand it here is the process of adding such a drive could you please tell me if i m right buy a scsi contoler which one i know adaptec is good but they are kind of expensive are there any good boards in the region i want it to be compatible with os and unix if possible also i have seen on the net that there are scsi and scsi drives is this true does the adapter need to be the same as the drive what type of drive is the quantum connect the drive to the adapter via a scsi cable and the power cable do i have to worry about the power supply i think i have watts and all i m powering are two floppies and the seagate drive setup the bios to recognize the drive as the second drive what type of drive is this i don t have the numbers for this drive format and create partitions on the drive do i use format or fdisk i think that ide drives can t be low level formatted is it the same with scsi how exactly does fdisk work i have a reduced msdos manual clone obliges and there is no mention of fdisk ideally i would want the drive partitioned in to two partitions d and e how do i do this well that seems to be all is there anythiing i m forgetting any help is really appreciated i m lost eric ebosco us oracle com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	perstor system disk controller information needed does anybody out there have or used to have an hd controller from perstor system inc which is out of business i believe my friend received an old pc which happens to have such a controller and i am having a hard time trying to add another hd to the card i believe the controller is supposed to control mfm drives as rll drives here the model info on the card but any other similar model will probably do perstor system inc model ps fn rev ecn i would appreciate your reply directly to my e mail address below thanks ray rngai oracle com raymond ngai rngai oracle com application system analyst oracle parkway a vertical applications division redwood shores ca oracle corporation fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help choosing scsi controler i need to buy a scsi controler for my machine to use with a quantum f harddrive i know that adaptec is good but they are kind of expensive essentially i want a controller in the range that i can use with this drive i plan to use windows and later on os when it comes out any reccomendations appreciated eric ebosco us oracle com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cents keystroke where is it why does my keyboard not have a cents key c like to have my cents worth or boaring david china cat bbs c cat david sed csc com n uunet mimsy anagld c cat david
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb writes scsi scsi controller chip also called scsi bit mb s with mb s burst this is advertised as scsi in byte for the pc and at these speeds not the mac the pc i have been following this mess for a while excuse my need for clarification iam thinking seriously ide vs scsi and this thread could not have come at a better time the above quote scsi scsi controller chip are we talking about a scsi device e g hd on a scsi controller or are we talking about a scsi controller that had a chip upgrade using the same chip that is on a scsi controller board thanks david china cat bbs c cat david sed csc com n uunet mimsy anagld c cat david
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re run box w o cover biernat rtsg mot com tim biernat writes i am interested in getting the pulse of this group regarding extended operation of my g k v with the cover removed from the enclosure there are a of reasons i am considering this including quick access to jumpers during complex i o card setups my concern is that without a complete enclosure to direct the cooling flow of air from the fan hot spots may develop on my motherboard or elsewhere my g k has intake air vents in the front of the enclosure right at mb level these vents would be removed along with the top cover in this scenario rendering airflow from the fan pretty useless however short periods in this mode don t seem to heat things up too much but my conclusions are far from scientific tim i ran a out of a cardboard box for more than a year with no major effects yeah no case at all mb sitting on a static bag other than the noise from the poersupply it ran pretty good as for cooling problems i bought a inch fan and turned it on full and set the output directly on the motherboard i did finally get a case though and i am still running the parts with no ill effects i also had no kids to spill things on the mb i had no cat leaving hair on the mb etc etc on and on the two major concerns are keeping static away and keeping the mb cool enjoy david china cat bbs c cat david sed csc com n uunet mimsy anagld c cat david
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re how to search for bad memory chips rnichols cbnewsg cb att com robert k nichols writes steps deleted it s an interesting idea but the worst case data patterns developed to test magnetic media are totally different than the patterns used to detect common faults in memory chips i was having major memory problems a few monthes ago getting parity error system halted error message in windows i ran qa plus check it diagnose as well as several shareware memory checkers i had a total of meg simm in my system these store bought shareware memory diagnostics either ran fine without errors or found an error at some address that i couldn t place on a memory chip out of exahperation i came up with the now deleted steps to find bad memory chips i found moral never buy memory stamped not for sensitive or critical applications on the back anyway i did filter out all the bad memory chips using combinations of of the meg chips and creating a ram drive to test on although it dodn t alleviate my parity error problems in windows i did manage to find bad memory chips in this manner it has never failed to find a bad chip for me and the commercial shareware have always faild me either not finding the error or pointing to an addreww which i have no idea on what chip it is p s man my typing stinks today and i don t feel like futzing around with this line editor david china cat bbs c cat david sed csc com n uunet mimsy anagld c cat david
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	kaypro jumper settings i received a kaypro i computer dos without a manual that describes the jumpers on the motherboard it came with kb and i up d it to mb but the computer or setup does not recognize the extra k does anyone know if this computer is capable of greater than k on the main board and what jumpers are required to expand it to mb some specs kaypro main board assy number phoenix bios v thanks in advance doug
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi in article c l e dz austin ibm com guyd austin ibm com guy dawson writes int eh same article the pc would will get plug and play scsi from the article it seems you get plug and play scsi only since scsi in full implimentation has ten not devices i beleive this last bit is just plain wrong i believe you are right both scsi and scsi support devices on the bus normally that would be the host controller and targets each of which may have up to logical units luns paul burry voice internet pburry cse dnd ca fax uucp uunet cunews cse dnd ca pburry
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	vga card for fixed frequency monitor has anyone connected a high res fixed frequency monitor to their pc i have a mitubishi monitor that does x at hz but won t do any other resolutions all the video cards designed for this sort of thing are very expensive has anyone done it with an svga card i know it can be done it s just a question of getting the card at the right resolution and frequency i d like to use a mono hercules monitor as my dos command line monitor and switch to the mitsu for windows or x windows under linux or bsd any suggestions would be greatly appreciated e mail please thanks steve wechsler zaphod src src linet org call lady hawke s castle bbs please respond to my queries via e mail post also if you like because my site purges news much faster than i can keep up with it this message was made from recycled materials
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	scsi vs ide do all scsi cards for dos systems require a separate device driver to be loaded into memory for each scsi device hooked up will this also be true of the bit os s thanks randy
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re ide vs scsi from article qq i inndqc dns nmsu edu by bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith write in article qpu uinnbt dns nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb writes wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes since the mac uses only scsi for hard drives yes the figure includes a hundred for scsi drivers this is sloppy people and dumb what group is this this is not a mac group nice of you to delete both your responce and the item that prompted it to whit i just bought at quantum for my mac at home i paid for it i tons of stuff deleted on scsi vs ide question wow you guys are really going wild on this ide vs scsi thing and i think it s great like lots of people i d really like to increase my data transfer rate from the hard drive right now i have a ms mb ide drive seagate a and what i would say is a standard not special no cache i believe ide controller card on my isa i m currently thinking about adding another hd in the mb to mb range and i m thinking hard you should hear those gears a grinding in my head about buying a scsi drive scsi for the future benefit i believe i m getting something like kb sec transfer right now according to nu how would this number compare if i bought the state of the art scsi card for my isa pc and the state of the art scsi hard drive the wailing est system i could hope for obviously money factors into this choice as well as any other but what would you want to use on your isa system and how much would it cost along those lines what kind of transfer rate could i see with my ide hd s if i were to buy the top of the line ide caching controller for my mb ms hd and how much would it cost i actually have a pas and could what a waste i guess it would be hook up a scsi hd through it s scsi port which yields an optimum of kb sec actually i have a borrowed ms fujitsu hd hooked up through it now and own the trantor hd drivers for the pas scsi port is this scsi port a scsi port how could i tell is the fujitsu a a scsi are all scsi hd s scsi thanks for any comments on these rephrased questions randy
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	isa bus scsi or ide wow you guys are really going wild on this ide vs scsi thing and i think it s great however i think that some people such as myself would benefit from answers to the simple question which would you choose and why like lots of people i d really like to increase my data transfer rate from the hard drive right now i have a ms mb ide drive seagate a and what i would say is a standard not special no cache i believe ide controller card on my isa i m currently thinking about adding another hd in the mb to mb range and i m thinking hard you should hear those gears a grinding in my head about buying a scsi drive scsi for the future benefit i believe i m getting something like kb sec transfer right now according to nu how would this number compare if i bought the state of the art scsi card for my isa pc and the state of the art scsi hard drive the wailing est system i could hope for obviously money factors into this choice as well as any other but what would you want to use on your isa system and how much would it cost along those lines what kind of transfer rate could i see with my ide hd s if i were to buy the top of the line ide caching controller for my mb ms hd and how much would it cost i actually have a pas and could what a waste i guess it would be hook up a scsi hd through it s scsi port which yields an optimum of kb sec actually i have a borrowed ms fujitsu hd hooked up through it now and own the trantor hd drivers for the pas scsi port is this scsi port a scsi port how could i tell is the fujitsu a a scsi are all scsi hd s scsi thanks for any comments randy
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	request for input multispin cd rom drives i m looking into getting an external reasonably fast ms avg access time multispin cd rom drive that supports photo cd multi session has audio output and scsi interface for connection to the pas scsi port does anyone have any comments experiences warnings recommendations they d like to share concerning the texel dm and or toshiba txm e and or others thanks hal r brand brand s gov
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re comments video blaster creative labs in article wpsun uucp mikgr wpsun uucp michael grant writes in article apr ultb isc rit edu mej ritvax isc rit edu writes in bu edu heiser acs bu edu bill heiser writes in article c rdy fw chinet chi il us randy chinet chi il us randy suess w rites the video blaster doesn t work with the ati graphics ultra pro doesn t work with m system ram are you serious so i can t use a video blaster in my mb what are the alternatives other than removing memory get a better one hows about the win tv thing the wailer at the gates of dawn banshee cats ucsc edu just who are you calling a froofroo head od just a friend of the beast banshee ucscb ucsc edu banshee ucscb bitnet no good i perfer watchit tv it can run in dos and windows win tv only run in windows sorry still no good watchit tv will not work on a with local bus video it will not work in any high reolution modes either the people who make the card assure me that they will have a card available in june that supports both local bus and hi res btw does anyone know the name of the company who makes watchit tv phone bbs internet thanks michael grant mikgr wordperfect com or mikgr wpsun uunet uu net i have a promovie spectrum it seems to work very nicely with video for windows with my setup ms hd pas and orchid f va the board could handle up to frame s eric
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	re help installing second ide drive another possibility is that the mb one is already partitioned into two seperate drives c and d and the cmos asks for c drive and d drive setup info rather than drive and drive like most others i ve seen could this be confusing things so i need help the drive came bereft of any docs except for some info for the cmos setup the controller has a little piece of paper about the size of an index card i cannibalized the cable it s one of those with a connector at each end and the one in the middle so it looks like a serial connection now i be lost many many thanks in advance this is practically an emergency i have two papers to do on this thing for monday help william barnes suranet operations wbarnes sura net voice fax disclaimer i don t speak for suranet and they don t speak for me i ve been told by our local computer guru that you can t do this unless you perform a low level format on your existing hard drive and set your system up for two hard drives from the beginning i took him at his word and i have not tried to find out any more about it because i m not going to back everything up just to add another hdd if anyone knows for sure what the scoop is i would like to know also thanks in advance also bill willis if you bought your ide drive from a dealer you shouldn t have to perform a low level format even if the st hd is already partitioned into c and d fdisk will automatically assign the nd hd to d and change the nd partition of st drive to e check the jumper settings and cmos setup in particular the correct number of cylinders and tracks
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re nutek faces apple s wrath article read in article davea davea xetron com david p alverson writes i believe apple has a patent on the region features of quickdraw a mac clone would have to implement regions this is why apple s comment was that they believe it is not possible to make a mac clone without infringing on their patents they may have other patents like this apple has patented their implementation of regions which presumably includes the internal data structure which has never been officially documented by apple apple cannot patent the concept of a region i m guessing that either nutek reverse engineered apple s internal data structure for regions i dunno if this would hold up in court or they came up with their own data structure if it s the latter then they won t be able to draw pict files containing regions besides pict files there aren t many places where regions are stored on disk quicktime movies perhaps as long as the region isn t being stored on disk and transferred from a mac to a nutek clone or vice versa it doesn t matter if nutek uses a completely different internal data structure i remember reading that apple also has a patent on their adb hardware and that the nutek clones would therefore be lacking an adb port what other patents does apple have on the mac joe schwartz e mail xor acm rpi edu or xor clotho acm rpi edu mapinfo corp broadway these are my own opinions any similarity to the troy ny opinions of mapinfo corporation is purely coincidental
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re your opinion of the laserwriter select my wife has one of these i have not had much chance to fiddle with it but in comparison to our laserwriters with canon engines she complains that the print is too light for her taste the difference is quite apparent even when the print setting on the select is adjusted to the darkest possible level i don t find it objectionable and indeed rather like it but be warned that some people don t care for it and it is considerably different i recall that years ago there were lots of debates over write black vs write white engines when dealing with tex drivers is something like that going on here
comp.sys.mac.hardware	floptical question hi i am looking into buying a floptical drive and was wondering what experience people have with the drives from iomega pli mass microsystems or procom these seem to be the main drives on the market any advice also i heard about some article in macworld sep i think about flopticals could someone post a summary if they have it thanks in advance reply by post or email whichever you prefer nizam nizam arain what makes the universe so hard to comprehend internet narain uiuc edu is that there is nothing nextmail narain sumter cso uiuc edu to compare it with
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris cache bernoulli box in article apr physc byu edu goblec physc byu edu writes i just tried running my bernoulli box off a centris and the driver software only seems to work when the cache is off if it is on i get the message this is not a macintosh disk do you wish to initialize it i have iomega driver is there a newer version that works with the s is there something i am doing wrong clark goble goblec theory byu edu i have version which i believe was needed for a machine you should be able to get the newest version by calling their tech support at or if you have a modem you can get the driver from their bbs at dean dean clark internet dfclark ca sandia gov
comp.sys.mac.hardware	please help find video hardware article crossposted from comp sys hp author was gordon lang posted on apr gmt article crossposted from comp sys ibm pc hardware author was gordon lang posted on apr gmt i need a device either an isa board or a subsystem which will take two rgb video signals and combine them according to a template the template can be as simple as a rectangular window with signal one being used for the interior and signal two for the exterior but i beleive fancier harware may also exist which i do not want to exclude from my search i know this sort of hardware exists for ntsc etc but i need it for rgb please email and or post any leads gordon lang glang smail srl ford com or glang holo srl ford com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	ftp site for radius software hey all does anyone know if i can ftp to get the newest version of radiusware and soft pivot from radius i bought a pivot monitor but it has an old version of this software and won t work on my c and radius said it would be weeks until delivery thanks chuck
comp.sys.mac.hardware	your opinion of the laserwriter select this model is one of the two low cost laser printers that apple just introduced i m thinking of getting one to use at home have any of you had any experience with this printer does it have level postscript if you ve bought one are you happy with it john cavallino email jcav midway uchicago edu university of chicago hospitals john cavallino uchfm bsd uchicago edu office of facilities management usmail s maryland ave mc b f w c g k s e h p chicago il
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how do you like the apple color onescanner we re all set to buy one of these for the office to use for scanning in color photographs and for optical character recognition we ve played with the original grayscale onescanner and were very pleased is the color model comparable in quality also what brand of ocr software would you recommend we re leaning toward caere omnipage any better ideas thanks john cavallino email jcav midway uchicago edu university of chicago hospitals john cavallino uchfm bsd uchicago edu office of facilities management usmail s maryland ave mc b f w c g k s e h p chicago il
comp.sys.mac.hardware	file server mac i saw once an article about a new line of macs configured to work more optimally as file servers anyone know any more details
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re powerbook duo batteries in article c vr z eb usenet ucs indiana edu kssimon silver ucs indiana edu kenneth steven simon wrote hades coos dartmouth edu brian v hughes writes to my knowledge there is no way to fully discharge a duo battery the program powerstrip which is freeware has an option called quick discharge you can find it on the mac archives probably sumex aim stanford edu or mac archive umich edu good luck kenneth simon department of sociology kssimon indiana edu indiana university is it a hidden option i m using powerstrip by mr caputo right now and can t find any quick discharge option it definitely is on mac archive umich edu cause i submitted it ron wong the santa cruz operation net comm segment mgr encinal street po box fax devprogram marketing mgr santa cruz ca e mail uunet sco ronaldw ronaldw sco com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	for sale macintosh se for sale apple macintosh se mb ram mb hd system installed rasterops bit video card for se apple monitor targus carrying case i m after offers in the region of pounds i m in the north london area contact mark allerton e mail pascal cix compulink co uk mark bilpin co uk phone evenings weekends office hours mark allerton srl data mark bilpin co uk pascal cix compulink co uk
comp.sys.mac.hardware	sound input in se a couple of questions for the multimedia set does anybody have a phone or fax number or e mail address or name of a principal in cedar technologies in dublin new hampshire all i have is a post office box number and i want to ask a couple of questions before sending them some money any info much appreciated i m running an se which came with no microphone is there any way other than using macrecorder with soundedit or cedar s digitizer with some similar software to input recorded sound into my mac i m trying to play some very short interview clips in a hypercard stack thanks for any and all help kathy mctaggart
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re help install ram on centris i had asked everyone about problems installing a meg simm and an meg simm in my centris but the folks at the local apple store called the folks in cupertino and found that you can t have simms of different speeds in one machine even if they are both fast enough ie my ns meg and ns meg simms were incompatibable just thought people might want to know jason
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re q video ram questions in article apr cbnews cb att com jbr cbnews cb att com joseph a brownlee writes could someone post a definitive answer about the vram configuration for the q and presumably the c and c as well there seems to be a lot of confusion about this issue i d like to know what kind of simms are the vram simms i e pin etc there s only one physical size for vram simms unlike dram simms which come in many many sizes and pinouts although they do come with differing amounts of vram on them the ones you need are kb simms are organized as k x and have two k x vram chips on them this is the only size which the quadra and centris machines can use how many vram simm slots are there two what rules if any must be followed in filling the slots e g in pairs sizes must match etc both simm slots must be filled putting a simm in only one slot does nothing for you how fast must they be ns for the q and c ns for the c is there any other relevant information there are certain vram chip manufacturers whose parts are not compatible with the quadra and centris video hardware make sure that the source you get them from guarantees compatiblity in general if it works in a q it will work in a q please don t reply unless you have the correct information many thanks in advance for helping to eliminate some noise from this group trust me dale adams apple computer inc
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors on a related note will the work on a centris with internal video and give the multiple resolutions this i m very curious about thanks kevin tieskoetter technical support drake looniversity microfrontier inc
comp.sys.mac.hardware	nutek email does nutek or anyone at nutek have an email address if not why not good things books by robert heinlein music by enya computers by apple humor by dave barry thursday nights on nbc and scotland scot salmon scot jlc mv com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors in article mar news media mit edu fredm media mit edu fred g martin writes part of posting removed the sony cpd has better video circuitry than either of the other two monitors it can display apple x vga x vga x though this has hz flicker and apple x hz refresh no flicker at all it might be able to display apple s x but i m not sure about this and the pixels would be real small anyway so it might not be that useful note that with either sony monitor you will need the proper adapter which both connects the video signals properly but also informs the macintosh video hardware of which display mode to use part of posting removed fred martin fredm media mit edu ames st rm e epistemology and learning group mit media lab cambridge ma usa i m assuming that the cabling tells the mac at startup what kind of monitor is connected now i think i ve seen ads in popular mac magazines for products i m not sure if it s just a monitor just a video card or a package of both that allow you to change resolutions on the fly w o restarting the mac if you were to buy a would it be possible to switch back and forth between apple x and apple x without restarting the mac is this strictly a hardware startup function or can software intervene or does the mac hardware occasionally probe the cable setting and switch automatically thanks eric ivancich eecs umich edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re cd rom multisession in article pgifo efb msuinfo cl msu edu gary ah cal msu edu writes as i said i know a multisession cd rom is necessary if you do more photos but what if it is just a writable cd rom drive and do a second session do you need one for that too if you write a second time to a cd you need to have multi session capability to read the second session whether it is photos or just data or whatever here is a simplified way of looking at it the first session has the directory structure burned at some tracks the second session has a newer directory structure but the first directory still exists because you cannot change only add so if you put that in a normal drive and it will only look to the first directory and think it has found all data multisession kindof means that the drive will look for the last directory written to the disc older systems look only for the directory not taking multiple directories into account lex van sonderen philips interactive media
comp.sys.mac.hardware	disappointed by la cie approximately four months ago i purchased a quantum lps hd from la cie for after two months the drive started having problems first there were intermittent freezes then corrupted files and resources then silverlining wouldn t even recognize the drive so i got an rma from la cie and exchanged the new drive for a reconditioned one well about a month has passed now and the second drive is having problems often when i boot up my iisi i get the flashing question mark sometimes if i then insert the silverlining program i can get it to recognize the drive by making it scan over and over for drives at that point i can restart the iisi and boot from the hd i ve called la cie again and they ve given me another rma their tech support people tell me that if silverlining doesn t see the drive there s a definite hardware problem given that this is the second bad drive in four months i asked la cie to send me a new one but they said no also within three weeks after i purchased my original drive la cie dropped the price on it by over i can accept that a drive or two may be bad and i know that hardware vendors make a practice of sending reconditioned replacements when they do repairs and i understand that the nature of the computer industry lends itself to sudden price fluctuations nevertheless taken together the convergence of these facts events have left a bad taste in my mouth i should have added above that when i asked la cie to transfer the contents of my current drive to the one they will send i think the data is still in good shape and i ll have to again reinstall everything from floppies they said it would cost me for data recovery it seems to me that reconditioned hardware should be sold as reconditioned at a discounted price and that replacements for new hardware gone bad still covered under a day warranty should be new i feel a little helpless about all this i don t mean to necessarily flame la cie their support staff have always been friendly and sometimes even helpful but c mon sometimes a little extra customer service goes a long way i sent a letter to la cie s customer service when the first drive was returned and i asked them for a credit on the price difference since i had purchased the drive three weeks before they slashed the price i told them i would like to apply the credit toward the purchase of another la cie product they didn t even have the courtesy to reply one way or the other what s the moral of this story i m not sure but i do know i won t buy any other products from la cie in the future bill krauthammer f ehg umiami ir miami edu ps please don t email or post about how good your la cie product and service has been i m not suggesting that they are not a good company or anything like that all i m saying is that i ve had a disappointing experience with them and i ll be taking my business elsewhere in the future
comp.sys.mac.hardware	wyse terminal emulator is there a wyse terminal emulator or a comms toolbox kit available on the net somewhere thanks vince
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re nutek faces apple s wrath article read in article mar leland stanford edu tedebear leland stanford edu theodore chen writes there isn t any copyright equivalent of the res ipsa doctrine but there s something kind of similar to show infringement one element you need to show is that the defendant copied from your work if you re lucky you ll have direct evidence of copying the smoking gun normally you do this through circumstantial evidence by showing evidence of access from which one might reasonably infer copying this evidence of access is considered along with the similarities between the two works in deciding whether you copied however if the similarities are so strong as to be striking an inference of copying may be drawn even without any evidence that the defendant had access to your copyrighted work in that case the burden will be on the defendant to rebut the inference of copying for example evidence that he d been on a desert island for the last ten years and had no contact with civilization wow now we know why lawyers are rich and computer scientists are poor lawyers have to sound as if they understand this stuff
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra memory upgrade hi folks what exactly is the maximum memory i can put in a quadra my manual says mb with x mb simms but macwarehouse and the like advertise mb simms to give it a total of mb who s wrong has anybody got mb thanks chris chris reid cr cs strath ac uk
comp.sys.mac.hardware	built in video i have many questions for all you experts out there pertaining to apple s built in video do all macs that have built in video have the ability to use vga monitors if so if not which macs have this capability can they drive svga as well how big of a vga monitor can they drive how can you tell if an unlabeled monitor is vga by the pinouts if so what should it look like particularly i m interested in knowing if the si or ci drive vga as well as the lc s capabilities in driving vga svga thanks
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lciii vs centris title says it all i d be particularly interested in the performance difference just how much faster is the centris over the lciii tom uucp humu nctams pnet tomj arpa humu nctams pnet tomj nosc mil inet tomj pnet cts com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	results of mathematica speed tests well here are the results of the mathematica test which i posted to this newsgroup the test was the following command plot d x y x y x y x y plotpoints i was just curious how fast the plot command would be executed on various macintosh machines as well as other personal computers and workstations the results are posted below machine system math vers of trials time min pb with tuneup mb ram mb for mathematica dec ultrix v a for dec risc iisi cache mb f enh mhz mb ram mb for math w c mb ram q mb cache mb for math sparc sunos station mb ram sgi iris d r risc processor version sparc sunos station iisi next nextstep cube based w coprocessor next nextstep ave cube mhz mb ram iisi mb mb for enha math w next mb ram mhz workspace manager funny how the iisi running at mhz is slower than other equivalent machines lots slower in fact perhaps the version of mathematica makes a difference or the fact that not much ram was allocated another interesting thing is how fast the sgi did it wow basically though i wouldn t draw any conclusions from this data it seems that mathematica s speed is dependant on a lot of variables i was just curious how different machines would measure up well if you have any questions or if i forgot something just drop me a line at cmmiller iastate edu chad ps if the spacing of the above table doesn t come out right on your machine tell me and i ll mail you a copy of this in a binhexed word document
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re caps lock vs control was re apple keyboard please excuse and redirect me if this has already been answered but is there a small utility that switches the functionality of the caps lock key and the ctrl key on the powerbook keyboard i use the ctrl key far more than caps lock so it would be more convenient and comfortable thank you for any help scott farrar
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac to laserjet iiip i have a friend who has a mac lc or lc ii i think and her family has an extra laserjet iiip sitting around is there any way to connect these two and make them work without a postscript cartridge she told me that a random friend of hers had mentioned something about some software package that could do the translation rick rick osterberg osterber husc harvard edu harvard yard mail center cambridge ma usa
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re help install ram on centris in article c s fy murdoch acc virginia edu jht e faraday clas virginia edu jason harvey titus writes i had asked everyone about problems installing a meg simm and an meg simm in my centris but the folks at the local apple store called the folks in cupertino and found that you can t have simms of different speeds in one machine even if they are both fast enough ie my ns meg and ns meg simms were incompatibable just thought people might want to know there s absolutely no reason why differences in the dram access time alone would cause an incompatibility there would have to be another difference between the simms for there to be a problem i ve often used memory of different speeds with no problems whatsoever as long as it s as fast or faster than the minimum requirement you should be fine just out of curiosity did you actually try this and see a problem or were you told it wouldn t work and so never tried it also out of curiosity do you know exactly who in cupertino you dealer talked to as i d like to find out what they re basing this recommendation on dale adams apple computer inc
comp.sys.mac.hardware	laser writer iintx upgrade kit could someone please tell me what a laserwriter iintx upgrade kit is its a small box which has a bag inn it seemingly containing chips look like roms and a iintx manual the installation instructions are most informative and say in full this product must be installed by an apple so what does this do at first i thought it might be a nt to ntx upgrade but i thought that required an entirely new board any info appreciated doug
comp.sys.mac.hardware	for sale ethernet board bit supermac combo gene s stuff for sale new prices the following items are for sale qty description list price supermac colorlink sx t bit nubus base t this card is primo selling for mailorder it suports monitors up to in with x virtual desktop accelerated hardware pan etc this quick sale price includes free nd day air seagate st meg in hd mo old note all hardware is in normal working order prices do not include shipping all items shipped cod usa or pre paid anywhere sold iisi nubus adapter card with fpu for any items please contact gene naftulyev chairman staff tc umn edu or call
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re se serial port speed excerpts from cmu comp sys mac apr re se serial port speed by samuel john kass andrew sorry i got a bit technical to answer your question your mac se will have no problem whatsoever communicating with any modem that is bps or less and since modems that fast don t exist yet in a standardized form there s no need to worry actually a kbps modem using standard compression v v bis cna reach bps however i have not seen any server modems that have hardware compression i have been told the annex modems here break up at k but i have never seen faster than kbps a
comp.sys.mac.hardware	cheap video card for lc w fpu just wondering if anyone had info experience with a video fpu for a mac lc just thinking of adding a second monitor most likely grayscale bret oeltjen exp pi i university of minnesota electrical engineering
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lciii vs centris in article apr nctams uucp tomj pnet cts com tom jenkins writes title says it all i d be particularly interested in the performance difference just how much faster is the centris over the lciii tom uucp humu nctams pnet tomj arpa humu nctams pnet tomj nosc mil inet tomj pnet cts com when apple came with their demos to iowa state i got a chance to run speedometer on some of the new macs both machines were running system had a rgb don t know what the caches were set to neither machine had an fpu it appears that the centris is quite a bit faster than the lc iii centris lciii cpu graf disk math p r rating so there is a comparison there is definitely a very noticable speed difference between these two machines according to speedometer chad
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re iintx upgrade in article pqprtinnf escargot xx rmit oz au s minyos xx rmit oz au douglas barry mcpherson writes could someone please tell me what a laserwriter iintx upgrade kit is its a small box which has a bag inn it seemingly containing chips look like roms and a iintx manual the installation instructions are most informative and say in full this product must be installed by an apple so what does this do at first i thought it might be a nt to ntx upgrade but i thought that required an entirely new board any info appreciated doug the kit is for an already existing laserwriter iintx it is a rom upgrade that replaces the font rasterizer code with the more efficient speedier code that first became available in adobe type manager that software came out after the original ntxes and the so called atm rasterizer is now standard on postscript printers mark
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re powerbook duo batteries ronaldw sco com ronald a wong writes in article c vr z eb usenet ucs indiana edu kssimon silver ucs indiana edu kenneth steven simon wrote the program powerstrip which is freeware has an option called quick discharge you can find it on the mac archives probably sumex aim stanford edu or mac archive umich edu is it a hidden option i m using powerstrip by mr caputo right now and can t find any quick discharge option it definitely is on mac archive umich edu cause i submitted it my apologies i goofed the quick discharge option is part of the connectix powerbook utilities package cpu i installed it the same day as powerstrip and didn t pay enough attention anyway the option does exist for those of you who buy cpu whadda goofball sheddap you re not even the real signature file kenneth simon dept of sociology indiana university internet kssimon indiana edu bitnet kssimon iubacs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	adb and graphics tablet help help i have an adb graphicsd tablet which i want to connect to my quadra unfortunately the has only one adb port and it seems i would have to give up my mouse please can someone help me i want to use the tablet as well as the mouse and the keyboard of course thanks in advance tai hou tng singapore
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re help install ram on centris excerpts from netnews comp sys mac misc apr re help install ram on cen by jason harvey titus farad from jht e faraday clas virginia edu jason harvey titus subject re help install ram on centris date mon apr gmt i had asked everyone about problems installing a meg simm and an meg simm in my centris but the folks at the local apple store called the folks in cupertino and found that you can t have simms of different speeds in one machine even if they are both fast enough ie my ns meg and ns meg simms were incompatibable just thought people might want to know jason oh boy am i confused i thought the entire point of the pin simms was that you could use diffrent size simms so you could avoid having to use sets all horror stories not withstanding a
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris cache bernoulli box you will need driver ver to work with quadra centris you can download it from iomega bbs dominic cheng d cheng descartes uwaterloo ca computer science university of waterloo ontario canada
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris impression i have been playing with my centris for almost a week now i must say this machine is really fast the hardware turn on feature is annoying but i got powerkey from sophisicated circuits and it works like a charm however i still have a few complaints when i restart the machine every time the screen image the desktop pattern jerks up and down for a few times the quantum drive is noisy overall i highly recommend it it is fast affordable and looks great dominic cheng d cheng descartes uwaterloo ca computer science university of waterloo ontario canada
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re wise to remove fan in classic in article hansg risken hansg risken vd volvo se hans granqvist writes is it wise to even think about removing the annoying fan from my classic i have no warranty to void and where do i get a screwdriver to fit in those funny screws hans granqvist volvo data corp gothenburg sweden my opinions only to every complex problem there exists an easy solution that s not correct the screws are torx screws and the tool isn t to hard to find it s a matter of finding one with a long enough shaft to do the trick no it is not a good idea to take that fan out why because it will cause stuff to over heat internal hard drives motherboard you name it and this can cause damage i ve known people to have hard drive failures because of fans that didn t work right dale leonard judy s stamps misc topical stamps from dogs dleonard wixer cactus org to cats to baseball and many many other subjects austin tx for stamp information call tony leonard at my number this is a business only number
comp.sys.mac.hardware	comparative scsi performance could someone direct me to information on scsi performance for each mac max throughput etc kurt tiedtke ktiedtke jarthur claremont edu please email thanks
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re your opinion of the laserwriter select in a previous article jcav ellis uchicago edu johnc says this model is one of the two low cost laser printers that apple just introduced i m thinking of getting one to use at home have any of you had any experience with this printer does it have level postscript if you ve bought one are you happy with it john cavallino email jcav midway uchicago edu university of chicago hospitals john cavallino uchfm bsd uchicago edu office of facilities management usmail s maryland ave mc b f w c g k s e h p chicago il frankly i think this model is a screwup it does not have postscriptlevel only has fonts and does not even have fine print or photograde or grayshare even the model has this i am shocked by the kind of features you get for this printer i myself was hoping for some decent printer to replace the personal laser writers a motion picture major at the brooks institute of photography ca santa barbara and a foreign student from kuala lumpur malaysia the mind is the forerunner of all states
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re info on apple gc requested in article apr alijku edvz uni linz ac at norbert mueller k alijku edvz uni linz ac at writes newsgroups comp sys mac hardware in article prudhom iros serge prud homme prudhom iro umontreal ca writes any info on the video processor am that sit on it any way to program that chip what companie makes that chip apple was never able to provide any docs or tools to program that chip i value it as the least value per piece of computer hardware i ever bought due to the complete lack support tools there was a refund for us buyers of this card but we europeans were left out in the rain once again i agree completely but there was only a refund for people who bought the gc with a quadra i have seen an alpha version of an extension from apple called gc quicktime video which offloads quicktime compression decompression from the cpu to the am on the card so it seems it can be done even though in a developer article it states that the gc can t be programmed but they asked that any suggestions be sent in anyway steve margelis melbourne university
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re mac os on a in article c bj e imag fr you write hillman hillman plk af mil wrote deathbird cmu edu donpaul c stephens kind of slated wouldn t you say who is going to throw all that to the side and get the mac os for not quite the point to be considdered here fact if when apple release system or what ever is current at the time of release then you will see shortly afterwards apple no longer producing hardware look at next with their nextstep to see what happens who is going to pay apples prices when they can get the same thing cheaper else where heck we can get a sun workstation cheaper than a quadra and infact we have a number of times it all comes down to if apple released this before windows was released i d be behind them they missed the boat so why is apple continued development will it support the p to its fullest capabilities run faster than windows it must do something significantly better than windows and os to warrent being released no the continued develeopment is because there is becomming less and less profit in hardware so the next step no pun intended well sort of is to make the money in software look at microsoft if you think it can t happen after all you can sell multiple pieces of software to one hardware platform as you also said windows is a nightmare for programmers so will the temptation to sell system to a couple of million dos users be too much for apple million copies is serious money sir office acme gen nz be thankfull that we dont get all the government we pay for
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re macplus freezes after hour use fails to boot in article osu inn r tamsun tamu edu mclean math tamu edu robert mclean wrote my macplus is having problems which seem temperature related after using it for a while it freezes the when i turn off then on the screen doesn t show the disk icon and then goes dark i consulted larry pina s book and could not find these symptoms has anybody else seen such symptoms suggestions shure it is temperature dependent but this does not clean all your problems based on some exp i must say that the connections between the power supply and the monitor and main board are usable to this failure ram simms can be badly connected due to some corrosion and the powersupply can be in the last phase lower voltage so you can do following if you are used to such technical terms clean all mentioned contacts with contact spray readjust the volt level of your powersupply use a calm fan and think of preventing dust blowin through the floppy a fixed piece of paper can prevent this if you don t know how to do it beg a friendly technician christian bauer bauer informatik uni ulm de
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re cd i in article afi shs vohmrylee andrew cmu edu donpaul c stephens deathbird cmu edu wrote what is the difference i want a double spin cd rom drive by may looking into nec and apple doublespins only what is the best nec toshiba and sony apple nearly deliver the same speed as apples prices are very low compared to there ram simms you should buy what is inexpencive but think of driver revisions it is easier to get driver kits from apple than from every other manufacturer christian bauer bauer informatik uni ulm de
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re what do y all think of the iivx in article p e tinnojp minerva cis yale edu bell peter yale edu peter bell writes my advisor has decided to get a mac for the lab now that we are funded again the consensus in the lab was that all we really needed was an lciii but he decided he wanted a centris the lack of an fpu on that machine and the price struck me as making it worth less than an lciii so i have suggested we get a iivx instead it seems heavily expandable and for what do people with iivx s think of them they seem like good machines to me and i like the nubus slots in case we ultimately decide we want to do work with video on it the iivx lciii performance at a centris price the only reason to get an iivx is if you really need the full size nubus slots keep in mind that the supports all apple monitors and has optional ethernet this lessens but doesn t eliminate the need for nubus cards and unless you re running fpu intensive software the will blow the doors off the lciii and the iivx the lciii on the other hand is sufficient for most people and has a great price if you haven t guessed i find halving the bus clock the iivx mhz up vs mhz bus a throughly bad thing and i hope apple never does it again joe finete jfinete cats ucsc edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	adapter cable for vga monitors does anyone know who makes a cable or adapter that is wired according to apple s specs that forces the external output on lc s and the powerbook s and duo into a true vga style output signal the nec adapter does not do this since their monitors are multisync they just route the signal into the correct pinout but do not switch the macs output into vga mode do i have to make one of these or does someone already have one made up the following is the apple spec for the lc cpu vga cable adapter i m assuming that the powerbooks duos will work with the same adapter macintosh lc to vga the macintosh lc can supply a x vga timed signal for use with vga monitors by using an adapter cable the standard macintosh lc supports vga to colors and with the optional k vram simm the vga monitor is supported to colors note the macintosh lc supplies signals capable of driving ttl level inputs however some low impedance input vga monitors do not work with the macintosh lc to connect a macintosh lc to a vga monitor you need to make an adapter cable from the macintosh lc video connector to the vga monitor following is the pinout description for the adapter cable macintosh lc vga video connector pin signal name red ground red video signal green video signal green ground blue video signal blue ground hsync vsync hsync ground nc sense sense tied together vga monitors are identified by shorting pin to pin on the macintosh lc video connector the macintosh lc grounds pin on its video connector which results in pulling down pin and gives the correct monitor id for a vga monitor this message was created on mcw bbs a jointly supported by new orleans mac user group national home school user group user maccomw uucp the views expressed in this posting those of the individual author only
comp.sys.mac.hardware	macintosh lisa dot matrix parallel printer i have got a dot matrix printer that came with a lisa i think i wish to attach it to a pc but have no manual i have been told that it is some sort of c itoh printer in disguise can anyone help with manuals or info about codes to send to select fonts italics etc i want to write a printer driver for protext thanks in advance stuart stuart munn dod heriot watt university the sky is black edinburgh therefore god he is a st mirren scotland eh as supporter fax god may have a harley e mail censwm uk ac hw clust janet but the pope rides a guzzi
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re new duo dock info in article nazario stiles kstar node net yale edu nazario pop cis yale edu edgardo nazario writes the info i am about to give is not a rumour it s the truth the new macintosh coming in the second quarter will have a cpu of their own excuse me but have not all macs got a cpu alain
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re powerbook batteries in a previous article gil cc gatech edu gil neiger says i have a few questions about powerbook batteries specifically the nicad batteries i have for my pb can the powerbook run without any battery if the charger is plugged in no problems michel dozois gloucester ontario canada ab freenet carleton ca membre du club de cerf volant de l outaouais ovkc membre du national capital macintosh club ncmc membre du jungle bbs un babillard macintosh
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra configurations i ve noticed some of you mentioning owning a quadra with cd and meg of vram it seems that this configuration was purchased complete that is the cd and vram were already installed in the box i am interested in that exact configuration and will be buying with an educational discount but have not found the cd bundled with any q smaller than the if you bought or know how to buy the with cd installed please let me know what you know via email send messages to dmaluso mhc mtholyoke edu thanks all diane maluso diane maluso internet dmaluso mhc mtholyoke edu department of psychology and education mount holyoke college south hadley ma
comp.sys.mac.hardware	memory in plus se i have to increase the memory in a plus or se i m not sure which since i haven t seen it yet i did this a few years ago but i no longer have the instructions i forget which resistor needs to be cut to go from to mbs can anyone direct me to this information is there an ftp able doc some where with diagrams thanks dick grant
comp.sys.mac.hardware	forsale radius precision color x video card i have a radius precision color x video card for the mac that fits in a nubus slot the card has mb of vram on it which means that bit color is possible on the card the card supports just about any monitor scan rate you can think of i used it at x x and x but it can go higher you can switch resolutions and depth on the fly with a software control panel this is the accelerated version of the card which means all quickdraw calls are not executed by the cpu but taken over by the video card freeing up the mac processor for other tasks the cheapest i could find this card for when i called around last night was at mac s place i will sell it for shipping it is just over a year old and never been any problem it comes with software and the original manuals hurry chris magnuson chrism col hp com hewlett packard company
comp.sys.mac.hardware	position of b on erg keyboard so far i have only seen pictures of the new ergonomic keyboard but it seems that the b is placed on the left part after the split however when i learned typing in school some years ago i was taught to write b with my right hand is this a difference between danish and american typing or what thanks a lot in advance thomas widmann lernu esperanton viralbus daimi aau dk solidvm petit in lingvis
comp.sys.mac.hardware	laserwriter pro memory upgrade i ve got the official word on the laserwriter pro memory upgrade i just got off of the phone with the quite friendly donna rossi at apple customer assistance she tells me that those who purchased the laserwriter pro in a megabyte dpi no greyscale configuration should contact their original dealers who are supposed provide the meg memory upgrade for those who don t know the extra meg will allow printing at dpi or greyscale at dpi if the dealers have questions they should be directed to their hardware support numbers and or apple customer assistance corporate number regards glenn p s personally i m annoyed at our school bookstore they really have an obligation to provide this information to all of the customers who purchased the in the original configuration they have the records that s why they ask for things like a phone number when i get my upgrade completed i m going to write apple and complain
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re what do y all think of the iivx jfinete cats ucsc edu joseph manuel finete writes the iivx lciii performance at a centris price and unless you re running fpu intensive software the will blow the doors off the lciii and the iivx from the benchmarks i ve seen was that in macuser or macweek the fpu less centris is faster at floating point operations the kind of calculations that get routed to an fpu than a mac iifx and a mac iifx mhz fpu is the fastest based mac take note of course that benchmarks never tell the whole story get your favorite program s and run them on both machines at the store they should let you do that before you plunk down a hefty amount virtually philippe philippe casgrain etudiant chercheur casgrain ere umontreal ca departement des sciences biologiques universite de montreal define disclaimer caught caught i wasn t even there i didn t do it
comp.sys.mac.hardware	techworks what you say greetings i m planning to upgrade my mac iisi from the present megs to megs and add a math coprocessor technology works of austin texas comes quite highly recommended by some mac magazines i was just wonderring if anyone could share with me anything about tech works both good and bad experiences or give any advice about other mail order companies that i may consider your reply would be very much appreciated thanks in advance sincerely peter choo choo sigma ecs umass edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	ethernet to localtalk on a quadra i have used both my serial ports with a modem and a serial printer so i cannot use appletalk is there a ethernet to localtalk hardware that will let me use the ethernet port on my q as a localtalk port until they come out with satellite dishes that sit on your window give you internet access from your home i won t at all be using that port saurabh
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re dcc and minidisc next dat dds like story in article c cmd zz newcastle ac uk tor olav berntzen newcastle ac uk tor olav berntzen writes another thing why a scsi interface because scsi works well with removable media and works well with large capacity devices the floppy interface you suggest handles the former but it doesn t have any hooks for dealing with the latter you d have to kludge it plus it s extremely low performance and scsi has gobs of room for expansion compared with a floppy i can just see it let s stick a a a tape drive and a mo drive all on the floppy interface the possibilities for unexpected collisions are enormous peter da silva network management technologies incorporated u west airport blvd sugar land tx usa zure otsoa besarkatu al duzu gaur
comp.sys.mac.hardware	thanks apple free ethernet on my c well i just got my centris yesterday it took just over two weeks from placing the order the dealer rutgers computer store appologized because apple made a substitution on my order i ordered the one without ethernet but they substituted one with ethernet he wanted to know if that would be alright with me they must be backlogged on centri w out ethernet so they re just shipping them with anyway i m very happy with the with a few exceptions being nosy i decided to open it up before powering it on for the first time the scsi cable to the hard drive was only partially connected must have come loose in shipping no big deal but i would have been pissed if i tried to boot it and it wouldn t come up the hard drive also has an annoying high pitched whine i ve heard apple will exchange it if you complain so i might try to get it swapped i am also dissappionted by the lack of soft power on off this wasn t mentioned in any of the literature i saw also the location of the reset interupt buttons is awful having keyboard control for these functions was much more convenient oh and the screen seems tojump in a wierd way on power up i ve seen this mentioned by others so it must be a feature anyway above all it s fast a great machine at a great price gnelson physics rutgers edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re new apple ergo mouse nwcs utkvx utk edu schizophrenia means never being alone writes does anyone know how to open up the apple ergo mouse adb mouse ii mine lives near a cat true really and picks up her fur from what i can tell it looks like apple welded it shut you must not have tried very hard i just opend mine in about seconds take a look on the bottom it has a dial that turns to open much like the older adb mouses used to have it s a bit harder to turn at first but it is quite simple to open also does anyone know about installing fpus in a mac lc iii i ve heard some people saying it has fried the motherboard of the lc iii well if you don t match up the pins correctly you will have some problems a close look at the socket should give you an idea of the proper orientation of the chip hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re file server mac pkr slacvm slac stanford edu patrick krejcik writes i saw once an article about a new line of macs configured to work more optimally as file servers anyone know any more details check out the may issue of macworld the new servers are on the cover should be at your favorite newstand hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re question x on quadra lecates bach udel edu roy lecates writes in article apr pcnntp apple com dale adams gateway qm apple com dale adams writes does anyone have information on acheiving x resolution on a q using interanl video is this even possible it s most certainly possible is it possible to use this resolution on the apple monitor if so i could probably rig a connector with the proper pins nope the apple monitor does not support multiple resolutions it is not a multi synching monitor hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re installing ram in a quadra truesdel ics uci edu scott truesdell writes this is an aside to brian hughes s please let s lose the cute phony names everybody posting about adding memory to a quadra what phony names my name is clearly visible in the headers and i sing the post with my account name if you have a problem with that then you will have to get over it i ve used this account name for over years and the people who have been reading newsgroups for the last generally recognize hades as my account name i have no intention of changing the way i post i installed a couple of mb simms in my quadra and was somewhat dismayed by the general complexity of the operation compared to for example the wonderfully designed lc iii it irritates me when apple refuses to tell how to do it in the user s manual so you have to guess at how to disassemble the devise in question it s the same for adding memory to laserwriter pro s it isn t apple s responsibility to tell its customers how to fool around with it s hardware that is what apple service techs get paid to do i personally like the design of the q and applaud apple for coming up with a good way to make use of the front space for all of those drive bays i like it a lot better than the design except for those people who need drive arrays i do however agree with you about the lw pro design the operation isn t very complicated if even a minimal amount of help were offered but apple leaves you working blind again its s not apple s place to make it easy for non certified service people to fool around with apple hardware even if they did buy it of course you are free to do what you want to your mac just don t get upset when your apple service rep tells you that your warranty is no longer valid after the memory was installed i was distraught that the top of the simms came into contact with the plastic case frame mine actually contacted the framework with quite a lot of pressure enough so that the assembly of the board back to the proper position was rather difficult and required some force i could have filed a little excess material off the top of the simm boards but chose to let it stand as is i have not had problems with ram yet so i will consider the problem annoying but not catastrophic this sounds like the kind of problem i had when i installed mb simms into an lc back before low profile mb simms were readily available the standard mb simms would contact the top of the case and make it a bit difficult to close the lc but it did close and work just fine one of the nice things about logic boards is that they are generally quite flexible and can withstand a fair amount of pressure hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	sigma designs double up i am looking for any information about the sigma designs double up board all i can figure out is that it is a hardware compression board that works with autodoubler but i am not sure about this also how much would one cost joe jap po cwru edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re new duo dock info aw camcon co uk alain waha writes nazario pop cis yale edu edgardo nazario writes the info i am about to give is not a rumour it s the truth the new macintosh coming in the second quarter will have a cpu of their own excuse me but have not all macs got a cpu alain alain get your facts straight before you post something like this the duo dock does not have a cpu of its own it is a docking station with ports connecting various components including the portable powerbook with its own cpu i guess these rumored new duo docks have a built in cpu to perform functions of their own interesting if they re not compatible with the current duo models i think you ll be hearing a lot more screwed by apple complaints imagine a company obsoleting ooh a new verb a virtually brand new computer sheesh ken kenneth simon dept of sociology indiana university internet kssimon indiana edu bitnet kssimon iubacs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re position of b on erg keyboard viralbus daimi aau dk thomas martin widmann writes so far i have only seen pictures of the new ergonomic keyboard but it seems that the b is placed on the left part after the split however when i learned typing in school some years ago i was taught to write b with my right hand is this a difference between danish and american typing or what it must be i type it with my left hand personally i would have a real problem with my keyboard opened up like that because i tend to share some keys with both hands particularly if i m doing something else with one hand like using the cursor keys mouse or glass of jolt deej jacob rose amazing but true there is so much sand in northern jaker csugrad cs vt edu africa that if spread out it would cover the sahara
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re cd i in article bauer bauer informatik uni ulm de christian bauer writes in article afi shs vohmrylee andrew cmu edu donpaul c stephens deathbird cmu edu wrote what is the difference i want a double spin cd rom drive by may looking into nec and apple doublespins only what is the best nec toshiba and sony apple nearly deliver the same speed as apples prices are very low compared to there ram simms you should buy what is inexpencive but think of driver revisions it is easier to get driver kits from apple than from every other manufacturer christian bauer bauer informatik uni ulm de i thought nec and toshiba cd rom mechanism have an average access time of less than ms while the sony apple cd rom drive has an access time of ms for the doublespin models chung yang
comp.sys.mac.hardware	using mb disks with mac ii do you need to get a rom upgrade to use a mb floppy drive with a mac ii or are there rd party drives which work with the mac ii s own roms thanks ralph ralph gonzalez computer science rutgers univ camden nj phone internet rgonzal gandalf rutgers edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re whats this thermal recalibration on quantum drives in article mar midway uchicago edu gary midway uchicago edu writes whether the drive is hooked up to the computer or not the lps makes a disk seek noise every seconds this is consistent and will continue as lomg as the drive is powered up even if i disconnect the drive from the computer this drive activity continues at second intervals someone tried to tell me the drive was doing a thermal recalibration not knowing beans about the internal physical workings of the lastest disk drive technology i guess i might believe anything whats the scoop on this standalone drive activity every sec i can only comment on thermal recalibration in general some new drives perform it in order to increase overall integrity of data writes basically the firmware instructs the actuator to perform a test to see if the data tracks are within a certain physical tolerance since when the media heats up or cools down some track drift is inevitable and the drive has to monitor it this becomes especially critical at very high recording densities and so was used primarily on very large capacity mechanisms but it seems to be finding its way into more smaller drives as a way of boosting the drive s long term reliability and mtbf ratings i first became aware of thermal recalibration when it was pointed out that the technique conflicts with prolonged write times when digitizing say audio or video to hard disk some manufacturers explicitly state that drives with thermal recalibration are not to be used for applications that have prolonged disk writes hope this helps victor
comp.sys.mac.hardware	ext hard drives for my se i m interested in getting an external hard drive for my se i ve got an internal mb that s pretty full even with compression s w alot of people talk about mb what s a good ratio i m thinking of adding either an or a or what brands would people suggest finally places to buy from are more popular mail order places better to order from or the places that just sell hard drives e g ones that advertise in the back of macworld and macuser thanks in advance if e mail replies are sent i ll compile them and post them drew drew j asson space telescope science institute ai senior software engineer san martin drive advance planning systems branch baltimore md usa internet asson stsci edu fax
comp.sys.mac.hardware	price drop on c within months i am going to be getting a c soon but i don t want apple to come out with the cyclones and the tempest in a month and have the price drop on the system i want i have negotiated a good deal with a supplier for a c and i would like to jump on it but again i don t want the price drop to smuther me btw the deal i have is a c with mouse for does anyone know of a better deal thanks nate ns longs lance colostate edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re thanks apple free ethernet on my c in article apr pion rutgers edu gregory nelson gnelson pion rutgers edu writes oh and the screen seems tojump in a wierd way on power up i ve seen this mentioned by others so it must be a feature anyway above all it s fast a great machine at a great price well i saw a few posts on this and asumed that everyone is talking about the new display mine does it to kinda like when i would degauss my old and since the new one lacks this button i assume that is what it is doing anyone that knows i d appreciate the info but it doesn t worry me t
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re techworks what you say well although this may be an uncommon occurrence or not i had a bad experience with techworks this past summer i upgraded increased the memory in a powerbook and a ci when i called to place the order for the pb ram i was told by the sales person that they would give me a rebate if i would return the original ram which was also techworks ram i followed the instructions for returning the old ram expecting to see a credit on my visa within a few weeks well months went by and no credit after many calls almost none of which were ever returned arghhh i finally found someone who told me why we never received your old chips i then explained i the procedure that i had followed to return them to which the person replied you mean you sent them us mail which i had per the original sales person s instructions i was told that they their loss of us mail shipments is not uncommon come on and that i should have sent the stuff via fedex etc i reasoned that i had done exactly what i had been told to but they would not budge the people i spoke with were absolutely no help i sent letters copies of the original receipts attempted to trace the package through the us mail made many more phone calls to techworks all to no avail i wouldn t give up because i was so disgusted sales support people supervisors there was nothing i could do to pursuade them to make it right i finally in total disgust wrote a letter to my credit card company asking them to investigate the problem three weeks later the credit miraculously appeared on my statement i have not in recent memory been so disgusted with the service that i received from a company in all fairness they had no way of knowing that was not trying to rip them off but i went to such great lengths to prove to them that this really happened oh well c est la vie i will never buy another product from them again there had to get that off my chest
comp.sys.mac.hardware	cyclone and tempest could someone please post any info on these systems thanks bob robert novitskey pursuing women is similar to banging one s head rrn po cwru edu against a wall with less opportunity for reward
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lciii midi does anyone have any experience using lciii with midi do they get along ok i have heard that the iivx is not suitable for midi but i have not heard anyon e say anything definitive about lciii and midi if you have had experience wh at midi interface have you used anyone used finale software in this setting please e mail i will summarize thanks jerry bartlett peoria illinios u uicvm cc uic edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re sigma designs double up jap po cwru edu joseph a pellettiere writes i am looking for any information about the sigma designs double up board all i can figure out is that it is a hardware compression board that works with autodoubler but i am not sure about this also how much would one cost i ve had the board for over a year and it does work with diskdoubler but not with autodoubler due to a licensing problem with stac technologies the owners of the board s compression technology i m writing this from memory i ve lost the reference please correct me if i m wrong using the board i ve had problems with file icons being lost but it s hard to say whether it s the board s fault or something else however if i decompress the troubled file and recompress it without the board the icon usually reappears because of the above mentioned licensing problem the freeware expansion utility dd expand will not decompress a board compressed file unless you have the board installed since stac has its own product now it seems unlikely that the holes in autodoubler diskdoubler related to the board will be fixed which is sad and makes me very reluctant to buy stac s product since they re being so stinky but hey that s competition stan kerr computing communications services office u of illinois urbana phone email stankerr uiuc edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re price drop on c within months in article apr yuma acns colostate edu ns lance colostate edu nathaniel sammons writes i am going to be getting a c soon but i don t want apple to come out with the cyclones and the tempest in a month and have the price drop on the system i want i have negotiated a good deal with a supplier for a c and i would like to jump on it but again i don t want the price drop to smuther me btw the deal i have is a c with mouse for does anyone know of a better deal thanks is that the low end configuration if it is it has the lc no fpu as opposed to all the other configurations with a rc has an fpu be sure you know what you are getting before you buy the rc is around right now if you intend to upgrade it from a lc sunny
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lciii to vga monitor adapters i m having a real tough time finding out the proper adapters to use a vga monitor an ibm sold w many ps s to be exact on the mac lc iii all of the vendors i have called say that the internal video will not work on a true vga monitor but will work on a ibm compatible multisync like the sony s or the nec monitors i thought the vga capability of lciii was very attractive because it allowed you to use inexpensive vga monitors am i confused or are these vendors just not up to speed has anyone used an lciii with a non multisync vga monitor and if so where did you get your adapter please be specific w vendor and cat i would prefer to get a apple monitor for these lciii s it s unseemly to see the finder inside an ibm bezel but the more money we save on monitors the more lciii s we can afford and the more ps s we can get rid of charles kuehmann northwestern university steel research group qman casbah acns nwu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re warning don t break powerbook screen in article d ub c outpost sf bay org peirce outpost sf bay org michael peirce writes surprised shouldn t be protective tarriffs almost always end up hurting the u s in the long run same with subsidies they way to build a strong economy isn t to wall it off from the tough outside world but rather to compete in the global market place and don t come crying when the world doesn t always want to play by our house rules tell that to the japanese their local market is neatly protected by the japanese government its one very tough nut to crack in fact the only current way to break into it is to do it with a japanese company as a partner in the venture gary gary snow uunet clark gsnow or gsnow clark edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	need advice about tech works etc greetings i planning to upgrade my mac iisi from the present megs to megs and add a math coprocessor technology works of austin texas comes quite highly recommended by some mac magazines i was just wonderring if anyone could share with me anything about tech works both good and bad experiences or give any advice about other mail order companies that i may consider your reply would be very much appreciated thanks in advance sincerely peter choo choo sigma ecs umass edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	duo dock problems has anyone had any problems with their duo dock not ejecting the duo properly when i first got it the duo would come out of the dock a couple of inches when ejected and i had to pull it the rest of the way nowadays and i ve had the system for months the duo doesn t come out at all despite the fact that the mechanism makes all the appropriate noises and i have to grab hold of it and pull it out myself is there a simple fix for this or do i have to return it to my apple dealer where it will languish for weeks while i have to make do with no colour display no vram no floppy or scsi etc btw it s not that the duo is locked into the dock it just doesn t want to slide out any more phil jimmieson computer science dept janet phil uk ac liv csc liverpool university internet phil csc liv ac uk po box liverpool l bx i was head over heels in love until i got cramp uk
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re help internal hds in mac ii in article apr siemens co at kurt netzer kurt siemens co at writes is it possible to install a nd mb hd in a mac ii with a mb qunatum hd can i us a pin cable with connectors for the internal motherboard scsi connector and the scsi hd connectors the first hd is nt terminated the second will be whats about the power supply where can i connect a amp connector to supply my hd it is very possible to connect another internal hard disk in any macintosh if you can find the space to put it i have a iisi that came with a quantum meg drive when i ran into space problems i slapped in another meg quantum that i had sitting on a shelf here is what i did first off i was concerned about space since both drives are quantum quarter height drives i finally decided that the logical place for them was stacked one upon the other fine they fit snugly i have not had a problem with heat yet and these drives have been running together for over two months the next problem was connecting the drive if you have a spare internal hard disk power cable as i did then half of your troubles are over just splice in the extra cable so that you get one square motherboard connector and two hard disk power connectors if you don t have a spare cable you will have to buy the wires and connectors which can be found in any good electronics store for about i would suggest properly soldering heatshrinking the connections to reduce the possibility of shorts or bad connections next you need a ribbon cable connection again i had a spare hard disk ribbon cable and i wanted to be careful in case this didn t word so what i did was purchase a crimp on pin cable connector that gave me another male connector in the middle of my spare cable the part cost again and is easily attached with any good wood vice the theory behind using a crimp on connector is that if this doesn t work my original cable is not damaged and i can go back to the original setup having done all that i couldn t be bothered to check the dev notes for power consumption so i plugged it in and it works like a charm to this day in a mac ii everything should work the same be careful with the id s of the drive and ensure that the terminating resistors on both drives are intact i did not try this without the terminating resistors but it seemed logical that if i am splitting the scsi chain that the signal should be terminated at all the ends let me know if you have any more questions peter hansen bell northern research pgmoffc bnr ca
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re help internal hds in mac ii in article apr siemens co at kurt netzer kurt siemens co at writes is it possible to install a nd mb hd in a mac ii with a mb qunatum hd can i us a pin cable with connectors for the internal motherboard scsi connector and the scsi hd connectors the first hd is nt terminated the second will be whats about the power supply where can i connect a amp connector to supply my hd it is very possible to connect another internal hard disk in any macintosh if you can find the space to put it i have a iisi that came with a quantum meg drive when i ran into space problems i slapped in another meg quantum that i had sitting on a shelf here is what i did first off i was concerned about space since both drives are quantum quarter height drives i finally decided that the logical place for them was stacked one upon the other fine they fit snugly i have not had a problem with heat yet and these drives have been running together for over two months the next problem was connecting the drive if you have a spare internal hard disk power cable as i did then half of your troubles are over just splice in the extra cable so that you get one square motherboard connector and two hard disk power connectors if you don t have a spare cable you will have to buy the wires and connectors which can be found in any good electronics store for about i would suggest properly soldering heatshrinking the connections to reduce the possibility of shorts or bad connections next you need a ribbon cable connection again i had a spare hard disk ribbon cable and i wanted to be careful in case this didn t word so what i did was purchase a crimp on pin cable connector that gave me another male connector in the middle of my spare cable the part cost again and is easily attached with any good wood vice the theory behind using a crimp on connector is that if this doesn t work my original cable is not damaged and i can go back to the original setup having done all that i couldn t be bothered to check the dev notes for power consumption so i plugged it in and it works like a charm to this day in a mac ii everything should work the same be careful with the id s of the drive and ensure that the terminating resistors on both drives are intact i did not try this without the terminating resistors but it seemed logical that if i am splitting the scsi chain that the signal should be terminated at all the ends let me know if you have any more questions peter hansen bell northern research pgmoffc bnr ca
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quantum q hard disk i recently aquired a quantum q harddisk it is a meg mechanism it is scsi i have a few questions and a few problems first there seems to be an extra connector socket on the back that i can t figure out what it is for the address is set by some jumpers on the bottom so i don t think it is for that any ideas second it would be nice to get a hardware manual for the drive there are a lot of jumpers on it that we don t know what they are for third i have got the drive to format it took a while to get things to work and most of it is fine for now the formating initialy was troublesome but seems to be ok the main problem is if you do a reset on the macplus the drive disappears if i shut the mac off and then back on agian then the drive comes up fine any ideas please reply to one of the email addresses below thanks richard crispin department of psychology email rcrispin watarts uwaterloo ca university of waterloo psych watserv uwaterloo ca waterloo ontario phone or ext canada n l g fax
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help powerbook and caere typist plus graphics hand scanner edited and forwarded by the csm announce moderator please respond to the originator by email also what he needs besides a cable that works is a phone number and applelink address for caere and a smile and a pat on the back please i beg you if you know anything about the caere typist plus graphics hand scanner please read and solve my problem i will be truely grateful for the rest of my life the problem is that my caere typist plus graphics hand scanner will not connect to my powerbook the cable on the scanner will not fit into the scsi port on the powerbook i then got a cable assembled to adapt the original cable to fit the scsi port this however turned the computer into scsi mode and treated it as a hard disk i have asked an engineer in london to assembled a new cable the idiot out of sheer laziness has taken weeks and has yet to solve the problem i am aware that caere co in the us have a solution do you know of a cable that will solve this problem please help me if you know the solution i will be forever grateful to you my e mail address is zia uk ac ed castle wrong side of the road syndrom for us that s zia castle ed ac uk thanking you in advance zia
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re disappointed by la cie in article apr umiami ir miami edu f ehg umiami ir miami edu writes it seems to me that reconditioned hardware should be sold as reconditioned at a discounted price and that replacements for new hardware gone bad still covered under a day warranty should be new well sounds like we need some kind of a lemon law on the hardware industry after all it does sound unfair to me for someone that has paid the price of a new drive for a reconditioned one what do you guys think
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re the c fan is noisy any solutions in article summeral rintintin colorado edu summeral rintintin colorado edu summerall thomas g writes is it me my or all s it doesn t seem to broken it isn t making grinding noises or anything it s just loud much louder that the fan in the iici i just sold anybody else have this problem how about a solution is there a good replacement fan that s a lot quieter but moves the same air any easy way to insulate the sound but not the cooling air hah i can t even hear the fan on my gee i wonder if its working yup just checked its exhausting air out the back just fine gary gary snow uunet clark gsnow or gsnow clark edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re price drop on c within months nathaniel sammons writes i am going to be getting a c soon but i don t want apple to come out with the cyclones and the tempest in a month and have the price drop on the system i want i have negotiated a good deal with a supplier for a c and i would like to jump on it but again i don t want the price drop to smuther me btw the deal i have is a c with mouse for does anyone know of a better deal i don t know how to say it best but you are gaurenteed that the price of the c is going to drop this year this week s macweek reports that apple is probably planning a drop in august my guess is that it may come sooner if apple decides to change the price structure upon release of the multimedia units this summer your price looks pretty good at about more then i payed for mine last month i would have rather waited for one of the new machines this sommer like the cyclone but the resale value of my iici would have not been squat by then thus financing forced me to purchase now i m happy with the machine and won t feel betrayed at all when apple cuts the price to less then next week heh bottome line if the c does what you want buy it if you wait until the cylcones come out for a price break then you might as well wait for the powerpcs to come out for another price break and then the units which follow them you may save some money but you ve lost a lot of time when you could have been using the computer face it apple s prices are going to be in a continuous state of flux at least they aren t going to try raising them again grin john komp leonardo src honeywell com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re comparative scsi performance kurt tiedtke ktiedtke jarthur claremont edu wrote could someone direct me to information on scsi performance for each mac max throughput etc max thruput on a centris or quadra is about mb sec max thruput on iici or iifx or equivalent is about mb sec max thruput on slower machines is slower peter a cohen no i don t reflect my employer s opinions peterco eff org heck my employer doesn t even know i m here
comp.sys.mac.hardware	apple tape backup sc under system x i need to get an apple sc tape backup unit working under sys x but do not have any drivers software to access the device does anyone know where i can fidn the tools to access this device appreciate any info comments curtis curtis c generous generous sti nasa gov nasa sti code jtt washington dc
comp.sys.mac.hardware	axion serial port switcher good or bad hi i m looking into buying a serial port switcher because while my mac has two serial ports i have appletalk a modem a printer midi and a sound digitizer unfortunately specifically i m looking at the axion electronic switcher because it seems to be fairly cheap about at maczone does anyone know anything about it i ve heard that with most of these things you can still only use serial ports at a time it just prevents you from physically swapping cables although i ve also heard that programs that use the comm toolbox may be able to use as many serial ports as they want does anyone know if this is true with the axion switchbox finally if the axion stinks or if you re using something else that you think is good i d be interested in hearing about other products i would like to spend under if possible please reply through mail i m not a regular reader of this newsgroup if there s interest i can post a summary of replies thanks a lot m scott smith umsmith mcs drexel edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pleeze help me buy a mac hey everybody i want to buy a mac and i want to get a good price who doesn t so could anyone out there who has found a really good deal on a centris send me the price i don t want to know where unless it is mail order or areound cleveland ohio also should i buy now or wait for the power pc thanks bob reply via post or e mail at rrn po cwru edu robert novitskey pursuing women is similar to banging one s head rrn po cwru edu against a wall with less opportunity for reward
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re iisi at mhz success story howdy folks back in september or october i posted instructions on how to upgrade the iisi to mhz by doin a little solderin people bolder than me have reported that they ve done the same procedure but put in a mhz oscillator instead of thus running the cpu at mhz instead of so i tried it and i ll be darned if it doesn t work has anyone tried or does anyone know if this procedure will work on an se mine s old slow and in need of either death or power kelley thomas kelley boylan powerpc ibm austin kelleyb austin ibm com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re adb woes in article apr afterlife ncsc mil mlbelan afterlife ncsc mil mark belangee writes greetings oh wise netters oops that s the oracle sorry anyhow i have a basic question that i cannot answer just where in the heck can i buy a adb cable mine on my trackball is shot and i haven t been able to find a replacement anywhere unless i m looking in the wrong mail order catalogs anyone have any ideas places prices just make it myself mark mlbelan afterlife ncsc mil you should be able to pick up an adb cable at any computer wiring store i d give you the address of alberta computer cable in calgary but a i m in victoria b c canada and b i don t think an address in calgary would help you too much basically however i just phoned them up and they charged me approx cnd for a custom made adb extension cable for my mouse hope this helps dave maclachlan dmaclach ra uvic ca nightfall software inc
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re cd i in article ps d innrc srvr engin umich edu chyang leghorn engin umich edu chung hsiung yang writes in article bauer bauer informatik uni ulm de christian bauer writes in article afi shs vohmrylee andrew cmu edu donpaul c stephens deathbird cmu edu wrote what is the difference i want a double spin cd rom drive by may looking into nec and apple doublespins only what is the best nec toshiba and sony apple nearly deliver the same speed as apples prices are very low compared to there ram simms you should buy what is inexpencive but think of driver revisions it is easier to get driver kits from apple than from every other manufacturer christian bauer bauer informatik uni ulm de i thought nec and toshiba cd rom mechanism have an average access time of less than ms while the sony apple cd rom drive has an access time of ms for the doublespin models chung yang i have the a cd technology drive with the toshiba mechanism and it is supposedly the fast and best now it has an access of ms and a data transfer rate kb sec it is multisession photo cd compatible it is available from educorp for the cd technology one and comes with two mail in coupons for two free cds i m not sure if the cd s are good since i ve only had the drive a little less than a month and had the cd s shipped to my home address in california instead of here in maryland the cd technology drive has a separate power supply separated from the drive which supposedly gives it a longer life and keeps it cleaner with no fan to attract dust a toshiba brand drive is also available but i think the cd technology is better since you get the same mechanism and at a slightly lower price with two free cds the apple i drive sony mechanism is around a ms access time i think and a data transfer rate of kb sec i know it is the slowest of the three mentioned here it is not widely available except through the apple catalog which is bad at a price of only it is also multi session photo cd compatible i think the external model comes with free cds some of which are pretty good the nec drive has been out the longest it has an access time of ms and a data transfer rate of kb sec it is available from many vendors around dollars including educorp it wasn t multi sesssion photo cd compatible before but i hear that the current version that is shipping is owners of the older drives can get an upgrade it does not come with any free cd s unless you buy it in a bundle of the three cd rom drives above i think the best choices would be the apple drive and the cd technology toshiba drive the apple drive for it s compatibility with apple products and the cd technology toshiba for it s speed and performance btw the models of the drives are apple applecd or applecd i internal cd technology cd t the toshiba brand name model i m not sure but it is also something like with nec cdr i m very happy with my drive and have had no compatibility problems whatsoever if i am wrong about any of the above do correct me but i am pretty sure of myself even when i think i m not also some of you out there might notice that i have the same last name as the president of cd technology which happens to be in southern california my hometown however i am not a relative nor do i know the guy liu is just a common chinese name especially in southern california with the enormous chinese community besides one of my doctors in california has three steve liu s as patients and another steve liu comes to my school and lives in the next dorm this is to show that liu is very common steve steve liu i wish for a better sig drlovemd jhunix hcf jhu edu suggestions are very welcome drlovemd jhuvms hcf jhu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re apple tape backup sc under system x in article generous nova generous nova sti nasa gov curtis generous writes i need to get an apple sc tape backup unit working under sys x but do not have any drivers software to access the device does anyone know where i can fidn the tools to access this device appreciate any info comments curtis curtis c generous generous sti nasa gov nasa sti code jtt washington dc retrospect dantz works nicely with this combination you can buy it from the mail order vendors
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help please hand scanner problem if you know anything about the caere typist plus graphics hand scanner please read on and save my life my problem is that my caere typist plus graphics hand scanner will not connect to my powerbook the cable from the scanner will not fit the scsi port of the computer i managed to gaet a cabled assembled that adapted the cord to the computer however this placed the computer into scsi mode that is it acted as an external hard disk whenever i switched the computer on i ve asked an engineer in london to assemble a new cable for me but he s taken weeks and has yet to find the solution out of sheer laziness and i know that a cable exists to solve the problem if you know the solution please let me know what cable i need and how i can get hold of one my e mail address is zia uk ac ed castle i will be truely grateful for all your help thanking you in advance zia
comp.sys.mac.hardware	cannot move data fast enough i want to achieve an overall throughput rate of around megabytes sec for very large data transfers around mb i have a quadra i have a nubus network card that can pump data in to mac memory at mb s using block mode transfers i have a high speed disk array no asynchronous pb calls that can achieve mb s let s say all transfers go from disk to buffer to network card it is not enough to first transfer all the data from the disk to buffer then transfer all the data from the buffer to card mb s then mb s result in an overall mb s too slow so i tried the following scheme for an n megabyte transfer step load the st mb from disk to buffer step asynch send st mb out card load the nd mb from disk to buffer step asynch send nd mb out card load the rd mb from disk to buffer step n asynch send the n mb out card load the nth mb from disk to buffer step n send the nth mb out card even though the code apparently does execute the card transfer asynchronously and the card does not use the mac cpu at all it is using the buffer tho each of the steps through n take as long as if the two transfers were executed one after another so there is no improvement in the rate why is the mac ram dual port so the nubus card and the disk driver can both access data at the same time is the problem that the two devices card and disk driver both have to use the same bus to mac ram is there anything i can do david david blume i get tired thinking of all the things i dcb wdl wdl loral com don t want to do bukowski barfly
comp.sys.mac.hardware	new duo dock with processor here s why well folks after some thought the answer struck me flat in the face why would apple release a duo dock with a processor of its own here s why people have hounded apple for a notebook with a processor in it apple can t deliver that right now because the saps too much power radiates far too much heat and is too large for a notebook how does one get around that without designing a new chipset use existing powerbook technology to your best advantage the duo dock gives apple a unique ability to give users that power in a semi portable fashion by plunking the into the dock you ve got quadra power at your desk on the road that mhz should be able to handle most of your needs okay not the best solution but its an answer to a no win situation so does this mean one will be able to use the powerbook s processor in parallel to the dock s processor okay we re getting really hypothetical now travis grundke macgames digest your source for information contributing editor news reviews of gaming software and the gaming macgames digest industry in the macintosh community reply an cleveland freenet edu for more information on macgames digest
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powerbook questions why or how actually can a powerbook have a x pixel display regardless if it is a or and still keep the dpi resolution i assume that it doesn t and i don t mean to imply they all have these dimensions any info on price drops or new models non duo coming up thanks jt
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re question x on quadra in article d u nu bostrauma trauma com ennui trauma com n is for neville who died of ennui writes does anyone have information on acheiving x resolution on a q using interanl video is this even possible i suspect that it isn t although i d certainly like to know for sure of course its possible i get x on my centris all you need is a correctly wired video cable gary gary snow uunet clark gsnow or gsnow clark edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re new apple ergo mouse in apr utkvx utk edu nwcs utkvx utk edu schizophrenia means never being alone writes does anyone know how to open up the apple ergo mouse adb mouse ii mine lives near a cat true really and picks up her fur from what i can tell it looks like apple welded it shut by rotating the plate around the mouse ball counter clockwise you can open the mouse and clean it it isn t as obvious as the desktop bus mouse i but it opens quite easily once you see what has to be done geoff geoffb dartmouth edu computing support consultant tuck school of business if you don t vote you don t count
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re cheapest mike for centris in article summeral rintintin colorado edu summeral rintintin colorado edu summerall thomas g writes i just bought a centris and discovered to my dispointment that apple has gotten too cheap to include a mike anymore internal or external you get a mic with the c if you get it with the internal cd rom drive gary gary snow uunet clark gsnow or gsnow clark edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re new duo dock with processor here s why an cleveland freenet edu travis grundke writes why would apple release a duo dock with a processor of its own here s why people have hounded apple for a notebook with a processor in it apple can t deliver that right now because the saps too much power radiates far too much heat and is too large for a notebook how does one get around that without designing a new chipset use existing powerbook technology to your best advantage the duo dock gives apple a unique ability to give users that power in a semi portable fashion by plunking the into the dock you ve got quadra power at your desk on the road that mhz should be able to handle most of your needs okay not the best solution but its an answer to a no win situation so does this mean one will be able to use the powerbook s processor in parallel to the dock s processor okay we re getting really hypothetical now it would also be great for another reason when not docked it could serve as an ara server to the large internal hd your corporate email etc in a pinch you would also have two machines instead of if they could couple that thought with rocketshare and let you use both the on the pb and the on the dock it would be a mighty powerful dock brian hall mspace netcom com mark space softworks applelink markspace america online markspace do not disturb i m on a mission from egghead
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re apple tape backup sc under system x in article pskkt ln fnnews fnal gov b fnclub fnal gov david sachs writes in article generous nova generous nova sti nasa gov curtis generous writes i need to get an apple sc tape backup unit working under sys x but do not have any drivers software to access the device retrospect dantz works nicely with this combination i also use retrospect but i noticed that central point software s mactools backup also supports the apple tape drive under x the apple tape drive is quite slow so the advantages of retrospect relative to the simpler mactools backup are less significant than might be the case for someone backing up a large server to a dat drive used apple tape drives are going for so it might make less economic sense to pay an extra for retrospect when mactools is cheaper and includes other worthwhile utilities retrospect is nice though and i m probably going to upgrade to bill johnston johnston me udel edu chambers street newark de
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re duo dock problems in c ge ks compsci liverpool ac uk phil csc liv ac uk phil jimmieson writes has anyone had any problems with their duo dock not ejecting the duo properly when i first got it the duo would come out of the dock a couple of inches when ejected and i had to pull it the rest of the way nowadays and i ve had the system for months the duo doesn t come out at all despite the fact that the mechanism makes all the appropriate noises and i have to grab hold of it and pull it out myself is there a simple fix for this or do i have to return it to my apple dealer where it will languish for weeks while i have to make do with no colour display no vram no floppy or scsi etc btw it s not that the duo is locked into the dock it just doesn t want to slide out any more phil jimmieson computer science dept janet phil uk ac liv csc liverpool university internet phil csc liv ac uk po box liverpool l bx i was head over heels in love until i got cramp uk also has anyone heard any rumors that the new docks the ones with the cpu will be better designed that this first batch i love my duo but installing cards in the dock is not much fun bob bob lord south wacker room network manager chicago il cstar group andersen consulting lord andersen com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re internal scsi installation how but apple hd sc says unable to locate a suitable drive on scsi what s he doing wrong apples hdsc will only format a hard drive that apple sold you need to use a third party formater like drive or spoton
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re cd i in article ps d innrc srvr engin umich edu chyang leghorn engin umich edu chung hsiung yang writes in article bauer bauer informatik uni ulm de christian bauer writes in article afi shs vohmrylee andrew cmu edu donpaul c stephens deathbird cmu edu wrote what is the difference i want a double spin cd rom drive by may looking into nec and apple doublespins only what is the best nec toshiba and sony apple nearly deliver the same speed as apples prices are very low compared to there ram simms you should buy what is inexpencive but think of driver revisions it is easier to get driver kits from apple than from every other manufacturer christian bauer bauer informatik uni ulm de i thought nec and toshiba cd rom mechanism have an average access time of less than ms while the sony apple cd rom drive has an access time of ms for the doublespin models chung yang the toshiba has a ms access time the nec has a ms access time right around the sony apple access time is of course somewhat important but not as vital in the case of cds as data transfer rate all the drives are double speed drives with maximum data transfer rates of k second any is a good choice apple s is very cheap when included with new macs and i agree with christian s comment about drivers plus apple s is bootable on the centris and quadra a very nice feature if you need to install system software i don t know if the nec or toshiba are bootable on those machines mark
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re new apple ergo mouse in article c qm on dartvax dartmouth edu geoffb coos dartmouth edu thumper writes in apr utkvx utk edu nwcs utkvx utk edu schizophrenia means never being alone writes does anyone know how to open up the apple ergo mouse adb mouse ii mine lives near a cat true really and picks up her fur from what i can tell it looks like apple welded it shut by rotating the plate around the mouse ball counter clockwise you can open the mouse and clean it it isn t as obvious as the desktop bus mouse i but it opens quite easily once you see what has to be done geoff geoffb dartmouth edu computing support consultant tuck school of business if you don t vote you don t count i think the original poster meant opening the mouse not just releasing the ball and getting to the rollers i found that on the original adb mouse sometimes unscrewing the two halves allowed for easier cleaning if the original poster has his answer i ll ask how do you open the new ergonomic mouse by open i mean split the two halves to get at the guts it isn t obvious to me based on the minute look i spent with one at the office yesterday as there are no visible screw heads mark
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re disappointed by la cie in article bc f d news service uci edu wayne chen eapu orion oac uci edu writes industry after all it does sound unfair to me for someone that has oops i meant fair not unfair
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra problem question i just got a quadra and i ve noticed that i can t change the desktop color from the beautiful gray i thought maybe i should reinstall the os using the install me first macintosh centris quadra diskette because the system file on this diskette is more recent than the one on the hard disk the easy install selects macintosh cnetris system software does anyone know if i should use this or customize and use system software for any macintosh or does it matter thanks in advance for any suggestions kay alexander old dominion university bitnet kba s oduvm internet kba s oduvm cc odu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re sales of powerbook slowing down in article martin tohi comp sys mac hardware martin tohi jean francois martin writes first this is not an april joke a dealer in my town told me that the powerbook don t sell as they use to sell the guy told me that apple is having the same problem it has when the desktop mac was too expensive the powerbook are too expensive in comparison to what you can get on the dos side what do you think of this do you feel the same thing about it just curious sounds about right if there is high demand for a product there is little incentive to aggresively cut prices once the demand fall off a bit then is the time to start getting aggressive with pricing waiting too long can really hurt your business though the powerbooks have sold very well up to now if they are slowing down apple needs to come out with some lower priced versions the only reason i own a powerbook is that i could spring for a pb the rest of the lineup is way to pricey for me i d bet they ll be coming out with more power versions too michael peirce peirce outpost sf bay org peirce software suite hibiscus place san jose california usa makers of voice fax smoothie applelink peirce america online afc peirce
comp.sys.mac.hardware	cache card and optimum memory settings here s a question that may be simple enough to answer but has stumped myself and a few others what does an external ram cache card do for you if you already have a large cache set through control panel in your simms ex i have a mac iici with meg ram an external video card so i don t rob my simm s and the default apple cache card i believe this is k say i have my cache set at meg what good does a measly k do me on the cache card could it actually slow things down by dividing the cache between the card and the simm s or does it still speed things up by providing a secondary staging area for data normally passed directly into the simm ram cache i m confused because it seems like cache cards are so low in memory to really do any good compared to what you can set yourself yet daystar fastcache has numbers which show around a performance boost on some operations are the chips on the cache card simply faster than most simm accesses please help i m trying to find the optimum memory settings for the iici system described in the ex above patrick hurh fnal fnal gov
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors and video cards for se hello all i am thinking about buying an external monitor for my se and was wondering if anyone out in netland has any advice for me i am mostly thinking about a color monitor and an bit card that can switch between and something higher like i read an old report on a card from lapis that could do this but could not use the external monitor as the main screen with menubar which to me is a major draw back has this perhaps been fixed or can any other cards do this like the micron xceed also which monitor should i buy at the moment i am leaning towards the sony s or what exactly is the difference between these but are there any other good cheap monitors i should know about doesn t the monitor have to be multisync to support cards that can switch resolutions please send me e mail and i ll summarize i would also greatly appreciate getting the e mail addresses of any mail order companys that sell monitors or cards thanks in advance eggert thorlacius university of iceland
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re new apple ergo mouse i believe that in order to get at the innards of the new mouse you must remove the label on the bottom that says apple desktop bus mouse ii there you should find two screws on either side i haven t tried it myself yet but when i ran my fingernail accross the label these two divots appeared and i can only assume that these are the elusive screws in question cheers john john m graham the cleveland institute of music jmg po cwru edu brought to you by the letters j m and g and the number
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors in article pco einn i corona hsc usc edu daniel s chen dschen corona hsc usc edu writes i m interested in getting a color monitor for my new lciii unfortunately i m really quite confused with the sony monitors could someone please compare the sony and the apple thanks dan just thought i would mention that sony no longer manufactures the cpd because of several manufacturing flaws the new model is now the which just like apple s new sony trinitrom claims to be inches i m not sure of the details on the defects but i work at our schools bookstore and can tell you that nearly half of them were returned with some kind of defect or another just my two cents worth
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitors joseph m kasanic jmk po cwru edu writes just thought i would mention that sony no longer manufactures the cpd because of several manufacturing flaws the new model is now the which just like apple s new sony trinitrom claims to be inches i m not sure of the details on the defects but i work at our schools bookstore and can tell you that nearly half of them were returned with some kind of defect or another i m assuming that you are referring to the s correct what kind of flaws have been reported i ve been using mine for about months now and i haven t noticed any problems might they develop later or did i get lucky and snag a good monitor just curious john john m graham the cleveland institute of music jmg po cwru edu brought to you by the letters j m and g and the number
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re how do you like the apple color onescanner in article apr midway uchicago edu johnc jcav ellis uchicago edu writes we re all set to buy one of these for the office to use for scanning in color photographs and for optical character recognition we ve played with the original grayscale onescanner and were very pleased is the color model comparable in quality also what brand of ocr software would you recommend we re leaning toward caere omnipage any better ideas thanks i work in a campus bookstore and we had the opportunity to demo the color one scanner i found it to be very impressive as well as affordable with the educational discount of course note also that it comes with ofoto software which is sufficient for our needs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re need advice about tech works etc gregory welch writes i followed the instructions for returning the old ram expecting to see a credit on my visa within a few weeks well months went by and no credit after many calls almost none of which were ever returned arghhh i finally found someone who told me why we never received your old chips i then explained i the procedure that i had followed to return them to which the person replied you mean you sent them us mail which i had per the original sales person s instructions i was told that they their loss of us mail shipments is not uncommon come on and that i should have sent the stuff via fedex etc i also returned pb memory last summer for credit and the sales person warned me not to use us mail i did although i did insure the shipment and apparently techworks got it my minor grip with techworks is that they have different price lists for different people i ordered duo memory thinking i got their best price because of my employeer i subsequently found out that apple was offering developers memory for less than techworks charged called up to complain and was told i should have said i was an apple developer and they credited my card for about of the purchase price i like techworks quality and installation instructions and they include powerbook tools but for out of ca purchases no sales tax chip merchant seems to be a bit less forrest howard oracle corporation oracle parkway box redwood shores ca
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lc vs rc in centris i would like to know what people s opinions are about the real world differences are between a c with and without a coprocessor i don t use anything like mathamatica maple etc i don t use spreadsheets at least no sheets with complicated anything i don t use d cad apps although i used to i do use d renderers extensive communications i run a bbs i write software i write papers etc btw just for kicks this is what i was told by my local apple rep about upgrading a lc to a rc on a c well apple built in an extra socket for the coprocessor chip that way you just plug in the coprocessor and it works i then heartily laughed and hung up the phone thanks nate o o i hate quotations this message brought you by tell me what you know nate sammons and the number ralph waldo emerson ns longs lance colostate edu o o
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lc vs rc in centris i also use photoshop to edit photos and do dtp work nate
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re new apple ergo mouse in article c eqg h dartvax dartmouth edu hades dartmouth edu writes nwcs utkvx utk edu schizophrenia means never being alone writes does anyone know how to open up the apple ergo mouse adb mouse ii mine lives near a cat true really and picks up her fur from what i can tell it looks like apple welded it shut you must not have tried very hard i just opend mine in about seconds take a look on the bottom it has a dial that turns to open much like the older adb mouses used to have it s a bit harder to turn at first but it is quite simple to open nope i m pretty sure that this person knows how to take the ball out i think that what they want to do is take the mouse apart the old mouse had four screws on the bottom that you could unscrew to do this while there s no obvious way to take the new one apart tony quan cs stanford edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re iisi clock upgrade hi i have been getting a lot of requests for this information so i thought i would post it for those interested parties sorry for length to increase the maciisi speed to mhz or mhz the clock must be changed from mhz to mhz or mhz respectively this is done by going to a static free work station or putting some aluminum foil down to work on open up the si by lifting the tabs at the back of the case remove the hard disk by disconnecting the power and scsi cables spreading the tabs and lifting the drive out remove the flopy drive remove the power supply by spreading the tab in front and lifting the supply straight up and out remove the fan by pressing the ears together at the back bottom side of the fan and lifting straight up and out remove the mother board by spreading the tabs on the left and right side of the board and sliding the board forward then lifting the board out all connectors on the back of the board must be removed first desolder the mhz clock the one closest to the memory modules this is not easy even for a skilled solderer get an ic socket with the round pins and remove four of the pins by pushing them up from the bottom with long nose pliers put the four pins in the holes vacated by the clock and solder them in insert a mhz or mhz clock put large power transistor heat sink s on the processor chip and the other large chip just to the right of the processor and figure some way to hold the heat sync s in place i made a simple clamp by putting a four inch screw up through the hole in the board between the two chips mount the screw using insulated washers screw a cross member down over the heat sync s to hold them in place don t use too much pressure put it all back together and go for it disclaimer this is only the procedure i used and is not authorized by anyone you are on your own for this procedure i m quite sure it will void your warentee bye for now ralph durtschi idaho state university email durtralp ux isu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	racet optical i ve got a racet mo drive with a ricoh ro e mechanism with the new roms the thing is i have a new tosoh optical disk bytes per sector cart for the thing that refuses to mount or be formatted all the carts that i have for the drive that work are racet certified media k sector carts all i can think of is that this tosoh cart uses some kind of incompatible low level format anyone know what software will allow this to be formatted on this drive or a new dip setting for the mechanism i ve tried just about every combination of drivers and custom formatting programs i can find with no luck any ideas joshc csa bu edu if you have a good idea please e mail it to this address if possible i can t check this newsgroup constantly thanks
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powerbook the powerbook with fax data modem is available thru citibank s citidollars catalog for s h citidollars the modem is bps data bps fax send only monty solomon po box framingham ma monty roscom think com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	problems with a rose does anyone work with the a rose card we have the problem that after certain crashes the card disappears from the system and lets crash the mac then okay we don t use the card quite like one should because we simulate errors in the before every instruction some specified registers are masked eg to simulate a stuck at error in certain bits normally the crash instance of a rose notices a crash sets a flag and stops working by reading the mentioned flag the mac can notice a card crash that works fine for almost all crashes but as said sometimes the card doesn t set the flag and disappears from the system the documentation of a rose does not tell us anything about its behavior when crashing and so at the moment we are trying to understand by analyzing the assembler code and that s both frustrating and lengthy so can anyone help please only reply via email as i don t read this group department of computer science iv university of dortmund germany laf aennig e mail maennig veronica informatik uni dortmund de in the beginning god created adam ahem atoms atoms of hydrogen
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re floptical question in article bmyers slip x ots utexas edu bmyers ccwf cc utexas edu billy lee myers jr writes the last time i looked floptical disk weren t all that cheap per floptical disk per megabyte per sysquest is per megabyte flopticals have been available since the beginning of the year at per floptical per megabyte and i have seen them advertised in macweek at per megabyte for someone on a tight budget the fact that the minimal dollar increment for more storage is less versus sometimes matters
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris video problem help we have recently obtained a centris and it has developed an unusual video problem model with mb hd k vram no cards monitor apple when the computer is set for colors and certain operations are done particularly vertical scrolling through a window horizontal white lines appear on the monitor which generally but not always spare open windows these lines accummulate as the operation is continued if a window is moved over the involved area of the screen and then moved away the line disappear from that area of the screen this problem is not observed if the monitor is configured for colors or a inch apple monitor with colors is used i suspect a bad video ram chip but cannot be certain the problem has been apparent since day but has gotten worse we were wondering if anyone has seen anything like this and if so how to fix it please also respond to azelenet bigmac mskcc org thank you for your help andrew zelenetz molecular biology program memorial sloan kettering cancer center
comp.sys.mac.hardware	noisy se what can i do there s this old se here it s got the older style fans that remind me of a house ventilator a cylindrical drum instead of the bladed rotor i usually see anyway the se makes this loud buzzing noise due to vibration somewheres if i remove the screws and loosen the front from the back it quiets down i can only assume that the fan housing from this goofy thing is touching the back of the case and vibrating against it anyway any suggestions for where to get replacement fans and how to stealth this guy your experiences welcome if everything had gone as planned everything would have been perfect batf spokesperson on cnn regarding failed raid attempt in tx
comp.sys.mac.hardware	tempest and cyclone info needed if anyone has any information about the upcoming new computers cyclone and tempest i am in need of some info anything would be greatly appreciated thanks shawn breedsa wkuvx bitnet
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re rumours about new duos jek ultb isc rit edu j e king writes since we are on the subject of chip power consumption i heard from a very reliable source that the dec alpha chip uses the power that intel s pentium chip does and it still whips the pentium s butt makes you wonder why intel ever made a chip to begin with wouldn t you like a powerbook alpha running about mips cool idea bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt sorry wrong it would be an extremely hot idea at least with the current alphas the available alphas run up to mhz but they produce quite a bit of heat in fact so much that they need special mounting with extra large heat sinks also apple looks pretty commited to the powerpc route instead of a deal with dec sid sidney w kitchel kitchel cs indiana edu kitchel dpsi com data parallel systems inc dpsi e morningside drive bloomington indiana usa fax
comp.sys.mac.hardware	ps appletalk card question i have a chance to buy a used ps appletalk card to create a network with my home machines however the guy who has the card tells me there s a db or db can t remember now on the back of the card rather than the pin or pin mini din that i expect this sounds more like a thicknet ethernet card should there be a transciever on it like on the quadras what would be a reasonable price to expect to pay for one of these cards keeping in mind that it s micro channel architecture which means take your best guess and double it email replies would be appreciated to here or to rrr ideas com thanks richr the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the university of north carolina at chapel hill the campus office for information technology or the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu or
comp.sys.mac.hardware	removable storage we have a quadra with mb hd but need to a lot of sound sampling for auditory research what would be the best type of removable media for storing these audio clips ron they say i m lazy but it takes all my time life s been good to me so far joe walsh ron pritchett internet pritchet ash cs scarolina edu fidonet ron pritchett
comp.sys.mac.hardware	a mouse in the bottom drawer i just found an old a mouse with a db pin plug i assume that it belonged to a deceased plus or something could any simple modification turn it into a proper adb mouse reply by mail preferably thanks ulf lagerstedt communicator c consult sweden ulf c consult comm se
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re re re x video on q adaptor pinouts this does not make sence why would the fg work but the fgx not work it is the same monitor without accucolor and digital controls works fine at x with svga what s the deal anyway you can get a svga with mm and x for at damark are you saing that it probably would work while a nec won t the fgx has a maximum horizontal scan rate of khz so driving it at khz to get x on the mac is way beyond the tolerance the fg is spec ed at khz so going khz is only above the minimally guaranteed figure i too doubt if the damark monitor would sync to a mac at x like most things you get what you pay that s the deal john rutirasiri p s i wouldn t have posted if i wasn t sure
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra acceleration about this quadra clock acceleration has anyone heard of anything like it for the quadra please reply e mail i don t get to the news very often thanks mark beale mbeale at wallaby mrc uidaho edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re mac plus is constantly rebooting in article c hsyu dxq hpuerca atl hp com russ hpuerca atl hp com russ hodes writes tae shin tshin husc harvard edu wrote basically the mac pluses are constantly rebooting themselves as if the reboot button were being pushed sometimes the mac is able to fully boot and display the desktop but it is only a matter of time before it reboots again at times the frequency is as high as several times a minute i wonder if your mac has those little reset interupt switches installed they are plastic devices that push on the switches which are inside the mac or mabey those switches are bad and need replacing this problem is usually a low vdc from the power supply there is an adjustment for this on the supply if the voltage is still unstable or low then the culprit is probably a bad rectifier at cr jeff hite computing center u of oregon jeffh ludwig cc uoregon edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	a stylewriter ii question i just read an article on the swii one thing puzzles me the article says the swii is a serial only device does that mean i ll have to unplug my modem each time i want to print something
comp.sys.mac.hardware	cd rom for a quadra would there be any problems with hooking up a toshiba external cd rom drive to a ron hey jack the ripper won t you come on over and hook me up to the power lines of your love jethro tull ron pritchett internet pritchet ash cs scarolina edu fidonet ron pritchett
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re interesting adb behaviour on c in article apr waikato ac nz ldo waikato ac nz lawrence d oliveiro waikato university writes i ve noticed an interesting phenomenon on my centris if i unplug the keyboard and mouse and plug them in again without turning the power off the mouse suddenly switches to about half its normal movement speed i check the mouse control panel and there s no change in its setting there it s still on full speed the way i like it restarting the machine restores the normal mouse speed by the way it happens with both the newer style mouse that came with the centris and the older style mouse from my iifx at work thus i don t think it has anything to do with the resolution setting in the mouse it s definitely a quirk of the adb interface either hardware or software in the centris itself i have noticed this exact same phenomenon occurs with my lciii perhaps it is a quirk of the new machines dan
comp.sys.mac.hardware	iisi clock upgrades any new reports about iisi clock upgrade to mhz mhz any failures a iisi owner with a slow mac and an itchcy soldering iron
comp.sys.mac.hardware	what is rom accelerated video in the macuser article on the new centris and quadra machines mentioned that the c and the q and not the c had rom accelerated video it didn t seem to make much difference in their benchmark test what is it i don t recall seeing it in dale adams post erik speckman p s could someone tell me if dale s posts on video and memory are archived somewhere
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra hades coos dartmouth edu brian v hughes writes jbailey world std com jim bailey writes b clark nwu edu brian clark writes quarda is a popular misspelling of quadra which has a mhz processor the has a mhz and some local buses on the motherboard run faster the video is different also the can run a and i believe a monitor in bit color without a vram upgrade actually you could put as much vram into a q as you want and you still won t be able to get bit color on any monitor it s not part of the on board video the q however can use bit video on monitors up to with mb of vram hades yes but if you upgrade the vram in a you get bit color so you really don t care my point is that out the box the has more video capability for the same size monitors the can do bit with both and doesn t support and does bit on monitors
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra differences jim jagubox gsfc nasa gov jim jagielski writes jbailey world std com jim bailey writes rdk cec wustl edu robert david klapper writes i also believe that the fixed a bug in the cpu which screwed up some floating point calculations robert d klapper washington university in st louis rdk cec wustl edu lubarsky s law of cybernetic entomology there s always one more bug does someone have any definite information on this this is the first i ve heard of it how does the cpu get fixed by a hardware upgrade this doesn t make much sense to me let s see now the differences between the and are basically runs at mhz not mhz has mhz i o bus not mhz upgraded graphics controller results in q requiring ns vram not ns rom fixes a rounding errors in floating point calculations at th digit so patch the roms with the latest os version i don t see how this is a problem b ethernet problems with more than buffers so no doubt the person was refering to a hardly screwing up though jim jagielski and he s gonna stiff me so i say jim jagubox gsfc nasa gov hey lama how about something nasa gsfc code you know for the effort greenbelt md
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re what to put in centris internal bay hades coos dartmouth edu brian v hughes writes tzs stein u washington edu tim smith writes jbailey world std com jim bailey writes yes you get internal mixing of the analog cd audio outputs with the mac generated audio on the mac motherboard also you can sample the cd audio using the sound control panel by clicking on the options button next to the microphone icon how do you click on the options button i ve never seen it undimmed the latest word on this is you have to disconnect the microphone cable on the motherboard then the button is supposed to un dim hades sorry i assumed that the the various new machines with the internal cd rom bay worked the same as the quadra obviously they don t i can use any of three inputs by changing the radio button under the sound cp on my quadra microphone external and cd rom i always leave the microphone plugged in even though i never use it
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re iici q upgrade in article c ha x oq austin ibm com login austin ibm com writes a while ago i posted a note asking for specs on the quadra and opinions on the q upgrade of a iici vs an accelerator card so far no responsed that i ve noticed please let me know what you think of these possible upgrade paths cost efficiency pros cons etc thanks complete q are best obtained from your dealer or some recent copy of macworld or macuser my foggy memory suggests that the most relevant comparison factors vis a vis a iici are as follows mhz mhz data path don t recall this for sure but it s slower than q style machines for sure ethertalk card on board audio in out mb ram on motherboard simm slots nubus slots more flexible build in video than the ci uses vram in comparison a iici with an accelerator won t give you audio or ethernet or the same video options with a accelerator cpu performance can be comparable but i think it ends up costing more greg dudek
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re sampling cd audio was re what to put in centris ldo waikato ac nz lawrence d oliveiro waikato university writes in article bskendigc h i fu netcom com bskendig netcom com brian kendig writes jbailey world std com jim bailey writes yes you get internal mixing of the analog cd audio outputs with the mac generated audio on the mac motherboard also you can sample the cd audio using the sound control panel by clicking on the options button next to the microphone icon what s this my iivx with an internal cd doesn t have any cd audio icon i can t find any such option on my centris either on the other hand i don t see why i need one if i try recording sound with the built in microphone with an audio cd playing in the drive i get the cd audio mixed in with the microphone sound and i guess if i unplug the microphone then i ll get uncontaminated cd audio admittedly sampled at bits through a d a d conversion sorry about the misinformation i made a bad assumption about the new machines behaving like a quadra see previous post about sampling the cd audio though have you tried it i found the aliasing to be really bad like it needed a filter or something much worse than i expected i installed the cd in the quadra myself so maybe i missed something everything else works great though
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re recommendations for removable storage media wanted in article apr kth se you write after having used both syqyest and bernoulli s i most enthuiastically recommend bernoulli s syquests although more popular are much slower prone to cartridge what does your friends have buy it if you have no friends buy a mb optical and stop i bought a bernoulli pro drive last year after comparing it with lots of diffrent storage solutions optical drives are slow very slow compared to to ms access of bernoulli since i needed additinol online storage rather than just a backup or archiev e disk i choosed bernoulli drive i use adobe preimere and quicktime movies alot you ran out of storage real fast imho the best buy currently is the bernoulli multidisk mb per cartridge homayoon akhiani turning ideas into reality digital equipment corporation alpha the new beginning reed rd hudson ma all rights reserved copyright c email akhiani ricks enet dec com the words are mine and not my employer
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lcd overhead projectors i am looking for one of those color lcd screens you place on an overhead projector and control the presentation with a mac can you recommend me a particular brand what price are we talking about thanks jan vandenbrande jan ug eds com new address jan lipari usc edu school address forwards uucp uunet uupsi ug jan
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re ad conversion i am working a data acquisition and analysis program to collect data from insect sensory organs another alternative is the use of the sound input port can you really make due with the non existent dynamic range of an bit converter of probably dubious linearity and monotonicity and perhaps ac coupled as well it would depend on the requirements of the poster s data for some purposes resolution with or without calibration curve otherwise the other possibilities would be get a digital voltameter with serial output connect to serial port on mac collect data with some communications program buy an a d chip from analog devices burr brown etc connect to a parallel to serial converter use serial port for acquisition nah too much soldering and trouble shooting get a board from national instruments data translation omega etal the finest solution but possibly the most costly to the original poster if the signal is too large why not use a voltage divider two resistors cost very cheap george sukenick sci ccny cuny edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powerbook batteries a quick query for powerbook gurus tom spearman in a post on alternative powerbook battery options mentioned that there exist versions of their powerbook batteries a amp hour one m a a amp hour one m b and a amp hour one m c anyone out there know how to determine which of these a battery is i looked at my battery and there is no obvious exterior indication i contacted tom spearman who had gleaned the information from macuser and he didn t know either anyone out there know the answer thanks christopher majka nextug ac dal ca btw if you can reply via email i would be grateful i don t often read this newsgroup i will post a summary of answers
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re what happens if you completely flatten your pb s battery in article c fodg on raistlin udev cdc com swiers chaos aqeng cdc com aaron swiers writes schuyler netcom com gabriel m schuyler writes stanger otago ac nz nigel stanger writes can running a powerbook s battery completely flat have any detrimental side effects other than the pb not going i ask only two things i can think of although nicad c batteries should be completely discharged about once a month leadacid batteries shouldn t ever be completely discharged well maybe once in a while is okay this is a very common mis conception dealing with ni cad batteries it is a good idea to completely discharge a ni cad cell periodically it is not a good idea to completely discharge a ni cad battery the difference being that a cell is only one cell nicad puts out volts like a rechargeable aaa aa c or d a battery is defined as more than one cell volt or for nicad equivalent due to differences in the individual cells of a battery complete discharge can actually harm a nicad battery more than help it overcome the memory effect the most common problem is that over time an individual cell can develop internal shorts which will weaken other cells that are connected to it thus reducing the lifespan of your battery pack etc okay naive question how does one discharge a cell without discharging the entire battery
comp.sys.mac.hardware	memory upgrades excuse me if this is a frequent question i checked in several faqs but couldn t really find anything i have a iisi with the standard meg memory and i want need to add additional memory but i m on a budget i really don t need more than meg max so what is the best performance wise and most economical way to do this someone told me that i should only use simms of the same amount of memory that is meg meg etc what if i just wanted to buy just meg and use the rest of what i already have the manual hasn t been very helpful with this thanks respond via e mail if it isn t worth the bandwidth common human laws and interests i wouldn t exactly call it a and emotions have no validity a happy dogma but it makes me or signifigance in the vast feel better about not cosmos at large getting laid hp lovecraft r carter jacob sunspot ssl berkeley edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	trying to find a reliable power center for macs hi there i am trying to find out a reliable power center it is basically a surge protector that sits below the monitor and has individual control for each outlet some people have an opinion that none of them work well the ones that i could locate in microcenter catalogue were tripp lite s isobar command console proxima power director kensington masterpiece plus has anyone used one of these could you please send me your feedback on these thanks shalabh
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris tms drive i recently purchased a centris and am having difficulty getting my computer to recognize my hard disk drive external using both the disk uitily of tms diskwriter and jasmine s software neither one will show the drive the drive is the only device connected to the scuzzi port i cant find the manual to the tms pro and seem to remember that it is terminated is there something else that i am doing or not doing that does not allow my to recognize my external disk drive thanks in advance for the information eugene e rosen genie erosen riverside road compuserve sandy hook ct aol gene rosen
comp.sys.mac.hardware	modem question art
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re educational pricing in article c iz n kyv cs dal ca hayes ug cs dal ca kevin b hayes writes you can find retail that is within the price of a keyboard of educational prices i would be very wary of retail outlets selling as cheap as educational prices i went for a retailer actually mail order cda computers because its price was better thant the campus computer store i found out why later on when i tried to get a repair done at an apple registered repair center the cpu was a resale the serial number had been removed and replaced with a non standard number probably from cda computers consequently the apple repair man could not do any warrenty repairs so i ended up with just a day warrenty from cda over the apple month warrenty boy was i pi ed moral of the story caveat emptor however if you go with a reliable trustworthy mail order firm if they exist maybe someone could enlighten us with their experiences you will probably get a better price than your local educational outlet simply because mail order out of state does not require sales tax yet though for how much longer remains to be seen the addition in sales tax on a cpu purchase will probably wipe out an educational discount again caveat emptor some mail order companies do include sales tax on purchases even if they are out of state so check richard richard j appleyard f jaguar csc wsu edu o o washington state university voice fax o to err is human but to really screw things up takes a computer
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re accelerator for se i too am interested in peoples experience with accelerators for the se is an accelerator the best route to improve performace in my se or should i consider upgrading to an se motherboard obviously buying a new mac would be ideal but alas i only have enough money for an accelerator or motherboard e mail reply preferred thanks steve labovitz dept of materials science engineering u penn
comp.sys.mac.hardware	where can i get the cheapest price hi all does anyone know where i can get the cheapest price for the teleport gold fax modem by global village any answer will be highly appreciated thanks in advance regards thian
comp.sys.mac.hardware	to fix trackball the trackbal on my pb no longer moves in the horizontal direction when i called the nearest authorized apple service person i was told that it probably needed replacing and that would cost me over ouch can anyone recommend a less expensive way to fix this problem one strange symptom of the problem is that when i take the ball out of the socket and shine a light into the hole i can make the cursor move horizontally by moving the wheel with my finger it works fine that way but won t work if i turn off the light any suggestions or comments ben roy just a poor college student internet br a american edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitor turning off on its own in article gcohen mailer acns fsu edu gcohen mailer acns fsu edu gregory cohen wrote in article apr rhrk uni kl de staudt physik uni kl de willi staudt ag linder writes from staudt physik uni kl de willi staudt ag linder subject re monitor turning off on its own date tue apr gmt kayc leland stanford edu k c ku writes i have a strange problem with my apple monitor which hopefully someone can shed some light on i would be using my computer for minutes and then the screen would go blank as if someone has switch the monitor off after the screen went off i would not be able to turn the monitor off even if i turn the power off and back on i will have to let the monitor sit over night and it usually turns on although it doesnt stay on for very long dooes anybody has similar experience with such a problem before is there some fuse in the monitor that prevents it from turning on when i try to turn the monitor on it seems that the monitor tries to turn on but it prevented by some mechamism in certain apple rgb monitors there has been a problem with the high voltage capasitor apple knows about this problem and is replacing the cap at no cost if it falls into the bad batch that they got from their supplier your local repair shop should know about repair extension l
comp.sys.mac.hardware	hp laserjet iii printing non appletalk with duo how does one print to a non appletalk printer using dmm laserwriter stuff i m using the serial driverand does nothig i vetried saving a postscriptfile and then tried sending with sendps and it says can topen laserwriter driver then some appletalk messagethatprinter not specified i m using and imagewritwrite one cable should i use a null modem adapter help lowell lowell reiter i need a vacation now tufts university internet account lreiter jade tufts edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	dead mouse my macclassic mouse died i dissected it and determined that it is the microswitch that senses the click that is stuck in the depressed mode this tragedy prompts the following questions is it easy to find a microswitch that i could solder into the place of the old switch i have old mice max mac ke can they be used with some adapter
comp.sys.mac.hardware	general questions on software and hardware i have just been introduced to macintosh systems i have a few questions e mail prefered just what is system i want hard details not dingy commercials like their ads in magazines has anyone used the microsoft office i would like suggestions on and descriptions on each has a microsoft before the actual name a word b excel c power point d mail what is the major differences between mac wordperfect and word thanks a lot
comp.sys.mac.hardware	performa internal modem i hear that the performa is really an lciii with an internal modem can the modem part be obtained and installed in an lciii it would be nice if it were actually a powerbook internal modem but that might be too much to hope for
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re interesting adb behaviour on c in article apr waikato ac nz i said i know that plugging and unplugging adb devices with the power on is not supported and you can hit problems if you have multiple devices with clashing addresses and all that i ve had a couple of e mail responses from people who seem to believe that this sort of thing is not only unsupported it is downright dangerous i have heard of no such warnings from anybody at apple just to be sure i asked a couple of our technicians one of whom has been servicing macs for years there is no danger of damaging logic boards by plugging and unplugging adb devices with the power on scsi yes adb no lawrence d oliveiro fone computer services dept fax university of waikato electric mail ldo waikato ac nz hamilton new zealand s e gmt
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra scsi problems jim jagubox gsfc nasa gov jim jagielski writes what the heck is this is this true aps has no info since they get their formatter from apollyonics and they haven t been any help actually it s transoft now and that s what i meant jim jagielski and he s gonna stiff me so i say jim jagubox gsfc nasa gov hey lama how about something nasa gsfc code you know for the effort greenbelt md
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lc iii nubus capable forgive me if this has been asked before but here goes my friend recently purchased a lc iii and he wants to know if there is such a demon called nubus adapter for his pds slot compusa and computercity supercenter says they don t carry them does this mean lc iii is incapable of carrying a nubus board much obiliged marvin mmiller garnet msen com the more i deal with hearing editor in chief co publisher of people the more i understand the deaf michigander terrorism a year for by marvin monthly newspaper e mail me for a complimentary above quote does not apply to copy today all hearing people though
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re asante en sc pb adaptor won t work with duo bill kurland bill panix com wrote i guess this changes my opinion of them and i thought i would warn any prospective customers for the en sc pb fwiw i work for focus enhancements and a lot of the people we sell our etherlan sc sc t our scsi ethernet interface are disgruntled en sc users i also now need to know if anyone has been successful with the comparable product from dayna or focus i really don t want to use up that nubus slot sigh i wish i had better news the focus etherlan sc is currently incompatible with the duos this may change in the future we do have apple register compatible cards that are compatible with the duodocks though send questions to focus applelink apple com peter a cohen i d rather be telecommuting
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re interesting adb behaviour on c in article bb a df djcohen yalevm ycc yale edu daniel cohen djcohen yalevm ycc yale edu writes i ve noticed an interesting phenomenon on my centris if i unplug the keyboard and mouse and plug them in again without turning the power off the mouse suddenly switches to about half its normal movement speed i check the mouse control panel and there s no change in its setting there it s still on full speed the way i like it restarting the machine restores the normal mouse speed by the way it happens with both the newer style mouse that came with the centris and the older style mouse from my iifx at work thus i don t think it has anything to do with the resolution setting in the mouse it s definitely a quirk of the adb interface either hardware or software in the centris itself i have noticed this exact same phenomenon occurs with my lciii perhaps it is a quirk of the new machines sorry but mine works fine c my cents worth
comp.sys.mac.hardware	best frontplate for syquest in iivi iivx c could someone tell me how to make find get the best frontplate for iivi iivx c with internal syquest drive is there one available or do i have to make one from the original or cd rom one or scratch every suggestion welcome jartsu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	spigot on lc iii a friend of mine has problems running spigot lc on an lc iii his configuration is spigot lc lc iii system video spigot extension i would appriciate if i can get any postitive negative experience with this setup thanks amir
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re what is rom accelerated video in article apr reed edu especkma reed edu erik a speckman writes in the macuser article on the new centris and quadra machines mentioned that the c and the q and not the c had rom accelerated video what is it i don t recall seeing it in dale adams post of course it was in dale s post just not in the words that macuser used rom accelerated video just means that some quickdraw commands has been rewritten inside the rom to take advantage of the addressing modes commands that do fills should be slightly faster since the new instructions fetch bytes at a time versus one
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitor shut down on hi res there is a defect in the hi res monitors bring it to a dealer and they will replace the flyback for free i think i just heard of this problem at work today and we are fixing them for free o r r
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re dead mouse 
comp.sys.mac.hardware	x video on a iici what do i need to do to be able to run an nec fgx in x mode on my iici can it be done with the right video card if so which video card michael
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re computer engr vs computer science in article apr macadam com mike macadam com writes i am a freshman in college and can t decide whether to major in computer engineering or computer science any advice or suggestions will be appreciated thanks mike a professor of mine once said the difference between a computer engineer and a computer scientist is about meaning the engineer makes more than the cs seriously though the main difference is that most cs people write programs that people will use i e database graphics word processors etc while an engineer writes for machines or control systems i e the computer in your car a flight control system computer controled devices etc in other words cs writes software while cse writes firmware these are generalizations but for the most part that is what the difference is p s the is not just a joke scott
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac ii scsi pmmu socket question this is a posting for my friend who does not have usenet access please contact him not me directly thank you the mac ii is supposed to have a socket for the mc pmmu chip could anyone let me know where that socket is on the motherboard i have obtained a pmmu chip mhz from a surplus store and would like to install it onto my mac ii circa but i cannot see the socket myself when i tried to install it could anyone send me the pinouts for the mac ii scsi db interface thank you contact david chan bzone attmail com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitor shut down on hi res in article apr guvax acc georgetown edu hew guvax acc georgetown edu writes there is a defect in the hi res monitors bring it to a dealer and they will replace the flyback for free i think i just heard of this problem at work today and we are fixing them for free o r r the service notice on the hi res monitors expired after this date apple will not reimburse service providers for the fix replacement of the hi voltage capacitor all you folks that have been putting up with intermittant shutdowns without getting it to your service provider missed out on the freebie it was in force for a year if you got it free after you got a deal jeff hite computing center u of oregon jeffh ludwig cc uoregon edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	more general questions i have two questions what would be required to create a macintosh pc network including laser printers line printers etc what would be bare minimum to create a network for the primary purpose of networking a laser printer by approx mac s
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re ok to set lbs on top of centris in article c hvjx dj news cso uiuc edu dlbg uxa cso uiuc edu david l berk writes i recently purchased a centris and a mirror technologies inch mono monitor i m wondering if it is ok to set the monitor on top of the cpu the monitor weighs lbs i ve called apple the person i spoke with was not sure but was going to find out and call me back in a couple of days that was over a week ago if anybody knows please respond via email as i don t always have time to read this group thanks david berk d berk uiuc edu yea thanks to lots of good information in this newsgroup i was prepared for lots of details even shipping time got my c cd in weeks i guess my biggest disappointment is the lack of detail in the written specs and documentation the case load spec is an example the setup section says apple and monitors can go on top but and other big ones can t why couldn t they publish a maximum load now if i can figure out if there s any hope using the partition button on the hard disk setup utility do i dare just try it and see what happens then maybe i can divide up the wealth among the family members a bit more securly the getting more information section of the manual suggested trying other avenues before calling apple but didn t mention the net mike feldman motorola computer group fax east university avenue pager in il urbana il mcdphx uiucuxc udc feldman feldman urbana mcd mot com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	specs i d appreciate it greatly if someone could e mail me the following if you only know one that s fine specs for the esp how it compares to the pentium specs for the with estimated cost release date etc i m interested in speeds systems it can run windows nt risc or whatever costs bus info register info all the technical info i am hoping that the can win yet another battle against the intel people thanks for any info you can give thanks lazer patrick delahanty warning mst k star trek fan macintosh user internet patrickd wpi wpi edu and co sysop of l a blues bbs lazer lablues uucp call l a blues bbs or macintosh user for macintosh ms dos files free usenet
comp.sys.mac.hardware	q fp errors was quadra differences rdk cec wustl edu robert david klapper writes i also believe that the fixed a bug in the cpu which screwed up some floating point calculations does anyone have details on this what sort of fp errors is the q sensitive to my q is having some strange problems with an fp intensive program getting a lot of ds segment loader errors thinkc and system gregory g woodbury the wolves den unix durham nc standard disclaimers uucp dukcds wolves ggw duke wolves ggw use the maps domain ggw wolves durham nc us ggw wolves duke cs duke edu this site is not affiliated with duke university idiots
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re desktop rebuild and datadesk keyboard in article c i w oe cs uiuc edu tthiel cs uiuc edu terry thiel writes ijust got a new datadesk e keyboard to go with my new centris and have a problem doing desktop rebuilds i hold down the command and option keys and restart but nothing happens the dip switches are set the right way and the command and option keys seem to work on anything else i m running btw anyone know what the problem is terry terry hi i recently bought an lciii and a datadesk e i can t remember trying to rebuild the desktop with it however it did give me a strange problem when i held down shift during startup to disable all extensions nothing happened i tried it with another keyboard using the same adb connector cable and it worked with the other keyboard the shift key on the datadesk keyboard worked well otherwise i checked the dipswitches and they are fine try disabling your extensions and tell me if it works i am annoyed with datadesk i sent them the keyboard in the mail for inspection repair replacement the technician on the phone said they have a day turn around time meaning you should receive the inspected repaired keyboard in that time well they have had the keyboard for over weeks and i still have gotten very little info from them about it it s annoying because it cost me to send them the keyboard they do not refund the money and their costumer service lines are toll calls tell me if you have a similar experience david mirsky gnu ai mit edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re desktop rebuild and datadesk keyboard in article c i w oe cs uiuc edu tthiel cs uiuc edu terry thiel writes ijust got a new datadesk e keyboard to go with my new centris and have a problem doing desktop rebuilds i hold down the command and option keys and restart but nothing happens the dip switches are set the right way and the command and option keys seem to work on anything else i m running btw anyone know what the problem is terry i am resending this message because my news program may have goofed the first time terry i recently bought an lciii and a datadesk e i don t remember trying to rebuild the desktop with it however it did give me a strange problem when i held down shift during startup to disable all extensions nothing happened i tried it with another keyboard using the same adb connector cable and it worked with the other keyboard the shift key on the datadesk keyboard worked well otherwise i checked the dipswitches and they are fine try disabling your extensions and tell me if it works i am annoyed with datadesk i sent them the keyboard in the mail for inspection repair replacement the technician on the phone said they have a day turn around time meaning you should receive the inspected repaired keyboard in that time well they have had the keyboard for over weeks and i still have gotten very little info from them about it it s annoying because it cost me to send them the keyboard and their technical support line is not toll free tell me if you have a similar experience with them david mirsky mirsky gnu ai mit edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re educational pricing in article apr jaguar csc wsu edu f jaguar csc wsu edu writes in article c iz n kyv cs dal ca hayes ug cs dal ca kevin b hayes writes you can find retail that is within the price of a keyboard of educational prices i would be very wary of retail outlets selling as cheap as educational prices i went for a retailer actually mail order cda computers because its price was better thant the campus computer store i found out why later on when i tried to get a repair done at an apple registered repair center the cpu was a resale the serial number had been removed and replaced with a non standard number probably from cda computers consequently the apple repair man could not do any warrenty repairs so i ended up with just a day warrenty from cda over the apple month warrenty boy was i pi ed moral of the story caveat emptor apple does not authorise sales through mail order as a result mail order companies have to obtain their machines by the grey market this market is supplied with machines from authorised resellers who have more machines than they can sell they come into this state of affairs by overordering either accidentally or deliberatly to get a better wholsale price from apple in either case they often obscure the serial nunber to protect their identity as a result the warranty is void you may save on sales tax but you have to pay for shipping i should also point out that mail order companies cannot get lower prices thatn the high volume authorised dealers unless they buy below dealer cost as a result the only way they can sell cheaper is by cutting costs and trimming margins unfortunatly they dont seem to be doing too well the lowest prices i have been quoted mailorder do not beat the lowest prices available from authorised local dealers they are even further away from educational prices erik speckman
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re to fix trackball the little blue roller on the trackball interior is probably rubbing against its support just push it down the pin so that it no longer touches it i had a similar problem rob
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re jump starting a mac ii did you remember to clamp ground to the engine block first rob
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re to fix trackball of course if you want to check the honesty of your dealler take it in knowing what s wrong and ask them to tell you of course he ll probably know right a way then charge you a service fee rob
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lciii powerpc hi i own an lciii and i recently heard an interesting rumor i heard that the lciii has a built in slot for a powerpc chip is this true i heard that the slot is not the same as the pds slot is that true thanks david mirsky mirsky gnu ai mit edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re printer blp elite in article ghoetker nova glen hoetker ghoetker nova sti nasa gov writes i m in the market for a post script compatible laser writer my needs are pretty modest so dpi pages a minute would be just fine my budget is also pretty modest so inexpensive would also be good it will be working from a single mac but networkability would probably be a good investment for the future with that in mind anyone have comments about the suitability quality value of a gcc blp elite printer i just recently purchased the gcc blp elite and i really like it my needs are much the same as what you describe in addition i wanted to get one that i could access via appletalk so that eliminated the new line of inexpensive printers from apple the print quality is good to excellent based on what font you re using and what paper you use i m still experimenting with different papers but a medium grade laser printer paper seems to work fine printing envelopes transpariencies letter head or other single feed jobs is very easy there is an adjustable automatic centering guide on top of the sheet feeder which aligns the paper properly and doesn t feed a sheet from the sheet feeder as some do i have no affiliation with gcc just a satisfied customer earl d fife department of mathematics fife calvin edu calvin college grand rapids mi
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re daystar again in article c fqno hh news udel edu bill johnston johnston me udel edu writes i m going to buy a daystar with mhz for the se since there were so many mails about problems with this board my questions does the board work with and a ux does anybody know problems with any kind of software well i haven t seen any reports of problems with the turbo but to my knowledge daystar has not released a version of the board that works with anything but the iisi and iici and they have not finished tweaking testing for use with a ux this may not happen until the a ux upgrade is released my guess so i d recommend waiting or buying the mhz board and upgrade later when a ux compatibility is assured turbo interface cards for the ii iix se iicx etc will probably be available sooner but if a ux compatibility is a requirement it is probably best to be patient and let someone else be the pioneer an added advantate of waiting for the daystar for the se is that just as with the power cache the accelerator will plug into the cpu socket leaving the pds slot free for a video card or ethernet card with daystar s upgrade path it s a no lose situation earl d fife department of mathematics fife calvin edu calvin college grand rapids mi
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lc vs rc in centris zack t smith writes konpej eua ericsson se per ejeklint writes hm maybe i m missing something but the centris has the with fpu at least the ones shipped here in europe you are indeed the model shipped here definitely does not have the fpu i own one i know no he s not missing anything you re right that some models of the ship in the usa without fpu or ethernet per ejeklint is also right all i repeat all centris s sold here in new zealand and i assume europe have the fpu and ethernet i know i bought a and it has both fpu and ethernet
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re iisi clock upgrades i ve just completed a successful upgrade of a an si to mhz i m waiting on delivery of a mhz clock for a final speed trial definitely needed the heatsink the cpu was quite hot to the touch at higher speeds until i glued on a cent radio shack sink i made a call for reports of failures last week no reports have arrived here locally in seattle there is a reported cpu damage due to the user slipping with the iron and putting a gash into the board not exactly a problem due to the cpu running too fast i think it would be nice to have a poll to report top speeds and system configurations including pds and nubus cards which were used i d be happy to coordinate and report results guy kuo guykuo u washington edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re ad conversion b clark nwu edu brian clark writes in article apr vax oxford ac uk roes vax oxford ac uk wrote i am working a data acquisition and analysis program to collect data from insect sensory organs stuff deleted another alternative is the use of the sound input port can you really make due with the non existent dynamic range of an bit converter of probably dubious linearity and monotonicity and perhaps ac coupled as well it clearly depends on the type of questions you are asking but in many cases it will do fine the critical information from the neuron is in the firing frequency maximum about action potentials per seconds and not in the amplitude of the signal or in details of the signal shape so the resolution of about you get with an bit convertor is more then sufficient ac coupling does not have to be a problem either since in many cases you are not interested in the dc level my pre amplifier is ac coupled also the critical point is the lowest frequency that will pass if the cutoff point is to high the action potentials will be slightly distorted but even that normally does not matter since it is the occurrence of the spike that is important however i do want to know what exactly i can expect before i start battling with the toolbox to get it going as yet i have no clue were to start looking for the technical specifications peter roes vax oxford ac uk
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re a stylewriter ii question in article egaillou miniac egaillou etu gel ulaval ca eric gailloux writes i just read an article on the swii one thing puzzles me the article says the swii is a serial only device does that mean i ll have to unplug my modem each time i want to print something no plug the printer in the printer port and the modem in the modem port jt
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re to fix trackball in article br a auvm american edu br a auvm american edu writes the trackbal on my pb no longer moves in the horizontal direction when i called the nearest authorized apple service person i was told that it probably needed replacing and that would cost me over ouch can anyone recommend a less expensive way to fix this problem one strange symptom of the problem is that when i take the ball out of the socket and shine a light into the hole i can make the cursor move horizontally by moving the wheel with my finger it works fine that way but won t work if i turn off the light any suggestions or comments ben roy just a poor college student internet br a american edu ben since you re obviously adept enough to understand how the trackball works the only thing short of repairing it that i can think of is a thorough cleaning of all the parts and then checking for the proper placement of the little blue rollers since they aren t fixed in position on their stainless steel pins you might try sliding them into a slightly different position on my powerbook i can slide them almost completely out of contact with the trackball in fact one of the notes from sumex on fixing the trackball advocates sliding the roller so that its edge contacts the ball not the center cylindrical area i ve done this with my pb and it does seem to improve the feel but needs to be adjusted from time to time i just popped open one of our office s pb s and while there isn t as much latitude for movement one could still adjust the roller slightly if your pb is the same it might help i would suspect the most likely culprit to be a slippery blue roller if you can take it out clean it with a mild soapy solution or isopropyl alcohol also be sure the ball is grease free if you drop the ball in minus the retaining ring roll the ball and see if it is actually causing the axle to spin if all this still doesn t solve it then maybe a new one is in order it could be an electrical connection in which case replacement would be necessary but my experience with both mice and trackballs has been that dirt has been the normal problem not an electrical malfunction hope this helps murray murray m altheim ils ont l orteil de bouc d un chevreil l oreille instructional consultant la corne d un chamois la face vermeille csu sacramento comme un rouge croissant dancent toute nuict altheimm csus edu dedans un carrefour ou pres d une eau qui bruict
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re duo crashes aftersleep looks like apple bug lreiter jade tufts edu lowell b reiter writes my duo crashe i close the lid it goesto sleeplikenormal then i open it press a key the screen showsthis wied pattern you can berely make outthe menubar on top although there are no words on the bar anditfrezzes why lowell lowell reiter i need a vacation now tufts university internet account lreiter jade tufts edu i have the same problem and was about to post this hello duo owners and apple technical people i have a new duo which appears to have a problem waking up from sleep when running on battery power when woken usually for the second time after sleeping the wake fails and the screen appears with a corrupted image of broken horizontal lines and control can only be recovered with control command poweron or the reset key at the back of the machine the problem occurs even when the system is stock standard no extensions no virtual memory a fully charged new battery system etc i have not had the problem when the machine is plugged in to ac i ve checked that the battery is properly seated it appears to be fine what s going on here anyone else had this problem is it software or hardware if you have a duo and a bit of time try repeatedly sleeping and waking the machine on battery power and let me know if you see the same behaviour and let apple know too many thanks to anyone who can clear this one up for me bruce bruce tulloch sydney australia brucet extro ucc su oz au complex problems have straight forward easy to understand wrong answers
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lciii problems finally got my computer fixed and i d like to sum up about hard drive companies the original meg drive that was bad bad sector or something was an ibm the new one is a quantum is the lciii supposed to be shipped with ibms is there a quality difference apparently second about hard drive position i ve put the lciii on its side and the new hd has had no problems at all i ve even switched back and forth between horizontal and vertical and there are no problems as far as i m concerned i don t believe hd position is important for drives up to meg in any computer don t know about cd rom though just like everything else in life the right lane ends in half a mile ravi konchigeri mongoose leland stanford edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re duo crashes aftersleep looks like apple bug i do not have this type of problem but at one point an apple rep told me that duo s system enabler file version fixes some kind of sleep related problem you may want to investigate this josip loncaric
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re a stylewriter ii question i just read an article on the swii one thing puzzles me the article says the swii is a serial only device does that mean i ll have to unplug my modem each time i want to print something no the printer port on the mac is also serial it has the same interface as the imagewriter ii kris system fourd com phone cute quote being a computer means never having to say you re sorry
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powervision for pb s hi i m in the market for an internal color video adaptor for my pb i was wondering if anyone has used the powervision adaptor made by mirror if so can you tell me how feel about the speed and compatability of it i might also be interested in other boards by envisio etc so if you have such a board please e mail your opinion of it thanks in advance john
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re interesting adb behaviour on c in article apr waikato ac nz ldo waikato ac nz lawrence d oliveiro waikato university writes in article apr waikato ac nz i said i know that plugging and unplugging adb devices with the power on is not supported and you can hit problems if you have multiple devices with clashing addresses and all that i ve had a couple of e mail responses from people who seem to believe that this sort of thing is not only unsupported it is downright dangerous i have heard of no such warnings from anybody at apple just to be sure i asked a couple of our technicians one of whom has been servicing macs for years there is no danger of damaging logic boards by plugging and unplugging adb devices with the power on noooooooo i ve been servicing macs for years too and i ve had to repair a number of motherboards that had been damaged this way it s rare but it does happen mind you this doesn t mean you shouldn t do it the parts that can blow the adb power fuse and rf filter aren t too expensive so if you have a someone around who can do component level repair it may be worth the risk especially if you re around seattle cause you might get to pay me to fix it on the other hand if your only repair option is the apple standard logic board swap major you should probably play it safe scsi yes adb no scsi yes adb yes floppies yes they can all cause trouble gordon davisson davisson stein u washington edu westwind computing university way ne suite seattle wa
comp.sys.mac.hardware	new duo dock with process seth i fail to see any advantage whatsoever with this kind of set up seth what a dumb idea so don t buy one kristen this copy of freddie is being evaluated origin leo technology hst v
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powerbook freezes after seconds help a few days ago my powerbook starts to freeze after appr seconds of inactivity it stays alive as long as a program is actively running or as long as the mouse is moved did anyone experience similar problems any known fixes please reply by email as i can t read this newsgroup normally regards mike fisher efisher ntu ac sg frank siebenlist franks ntu ac sg senior research fellow gintic institute of manufacturing technology gimt nanyang technological university ntu nanyang avenue singapore tel fax
comp.sys.mac.hardware	daystar turbo opinions i m thinking about upgrading my mhz to the version has anyone had any experience with the accelerator and if so what do you think any problems what are the speedometer results is it much faster than the mhz basically i d appreciate hearing all about this product please respond via email and i ll summarize if there s a big response thanks in advance andrew
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re interesting adb behaviour on c in article ql nainn l shelley u washington edu davisson stein u washington edu gordon davisson writes mind you this doesn t mean you shouldn t do it the parts that can blow the adb power fuse and rf filter aren t too expensive so if you have a someone around who can do component level repair it may be worth the risk especially if you re around seattle cause you might get to pay me to fix it on the other hand if your only repair option is the apple standard logic board swap major you should probably play it safe scsi yes adb yes floppies yes they can all cause trouble otoh some of us get lucky i ve unplugged and replugged scsi and adb quite often and never blown anything i blew out the adb by shorting the cable though matthew t russotto russotto eng umd edu russotto wam umd edu some news readers expect disclaimer here just say no to police searches and seizures make them use force not responsible for bodily harm resulting from following above advice
comp.sys.mac.hardware	seeking fax for network access i am seeking recommendations vendors for a networkable fax it would mainly be used for outgoing fax s from mac s on our net the ability to fax from other platforms would be a plus ethernet interface would be preffered but localtalk would suffice can anyone provide any info thanks in advance peter peter haase internet haase meediv lanl gov network manager los alamos national laboratory
comp.sys.mac.hardware	i want use deskjet on system i used hp deskjet with orange micros grappler ls on system but now i update system to system with kanji talk then i can not print by my deskjet is the grappler ls old can i use deskjet on system please tell me how to use deskjet on system thank you from japan mori volga mfd cs fujitsu co jp
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help my macintosh luggable has lines on its screen okay i don t use it very much but i would like for it to keep working correctly at least as long as apple continues to make system software that will run on it if slowly here is the problem when the screen is tilted too far back vertical lines appear on the screen they are every pixels or so and seem to be affected somewhat by opening windows and pulling down menus it looks to a semi technical person like there is a loose connection between the screen and the rest of the computer i am open to suggestions that do not involve buying a new computer or taking this one to the shop i would also like to not have to buy one of larry pina s books i like larry but i m not sure i feel strongly enough about the computer to buy a service manual for it on a related note what does the monitor connector connect to erik
comp.sys.mac.hardware	performa plus monitor i would like to know if a performa plus monitor is compatible with apple in color display or it is just a vga moniro any help will be appreciate
comp.sys.mac.hardware	rack mount ci prices here s a good one does anyone know of a product that allows me to rack mount my ci or maybe if i blow some more money my application is music and would like to be able to haul it around would probably plan to get an mo drive or something so i don t have to depend on an internal fixed hard drive i e may be pretty rough on an internal hd i m in the san francisco bay area if that matters also anyone have any info on s and midi and would anyone care to email me with the price they paid for their or if there s a price list faq never mind just curious about the difference between the best retailers and the local university pricing thanks jeff adams adams upse mtv gtegsc com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	what is the current rom version shipping in syquest drives the title says it all i need to know the and c rom versions steve
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re duo crashes aftersleep looks like apple bug mysstem crashes aftwer sleepp i use enabler i use appletalk and filesharing i have and expressmodem lowell lowell reiter i need a vacation now tufts university internet account lreiter jade tufts edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris to decstation e net adapter pnsf dw smucs umassd edu dennis j wilkinson writes not necessarily a thrid party adapter apple does manufacture transceivers for thinwire and baset twisted pair cable media as well as an aui attachment unit interface transciever they run at each if you use thinwire or baset you ll probably also need terminators apple s transceivers are self terminated if i remember correctly but i have no idea about decs the third party media adapters are usually cheaper at least in toronto than apple s i bought the adapters from asante instead of apple gurman umbra gsfc nasa gov joseph b gurman writes the decstation models and come with thinwire only can t say for certain about the models and so your best bet that s not true only the decstation comes with a thinwire bnc coaxial ethernet connector the and all have a single pin aui ethernet connector only i distinctly remembered this because when got the first and i thought all of them are going to be thinwire i eventually had to go back and ordered destas dec s oversized version of an aui to bnc adapter that must be used with a transciever cable for the rest of the stations my advise to the very original poster beverly is if all you want is to create a lan with two workstations and won t add machines to it ever go for thinwire regardless of the media type going for utp unshielded twisted pair wiring requires a concentrator which means extra money and i believe these units come with at least ports as for thicknet it s a nightmare and cabling is expensive avoid it unless you have no choice e g the two machines are two floors parts on the mac side you will need one thinwire media adapter from apple or third party macx make sure you get version won t run on system mactcp which comes with macx if you get macx v you should be getting mactcp v with it don t use earlier versions on a centris you may or may not need a ohm terminator depending on the thinwire media adapter so just ask the sales if the adapter is self terminated or not configure mactcp to use ethernet on the decstation side you will need for a model you will only need a t connector for models you will need an aui to bnc adapter get one that can be plugged in directly to the aui port of the decstation this way you save the cost of a transciever cable a pin aui male to a pin aui female cable get a ohm terminator your two machine network will look like this t decstation centris or t decstation centris ohm terminator t t connector thinwire rg coaxial cable aui to bnc i e thick to thin adapter thickwire media adapter assuming self terminated andy andy sun andy ie utoronto ca taddle creek road toronto computing coordinator ontario canada m s a department of industrial engineering phone university of toronto fax
comp.sys.mac.hardware	vga monitors and the mac lc series of computers i recall reading that the mac lc and presumably the lc ii iii can use stand ard vga monitors with appropriate cable adapters i am uncertain of this sinc e i have asked other people who say this is not so so can all vga monitors be used on the mac lc what are the specs needed for a pc monitor to work with a mac lc horizontal nad vertical frequencies
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lcd overhead projectors in apr ug eds com jan camhpp mdcbbs com jan vandenbrande writes i am looking for one of those color lcd screens you place on an overhead projector and control the presentation with a mac can you recommend me a particular brand what price are we talking about for a good display you must get an active matrix panel and a very bright overhead projector designed to be used with an lcd panel i e stage must not get too hot i tried out a proxima ovation unit and liked it but i needed a brighter projector i used it with a m it is also too expensive for what you get imho prices of active matrix panels are rumoured to drop substantially sometime this year something to do with tarrifs being lifted i think in canadian dollars the proxima ovation models ranged in price from about to and a good overhead projector about to for that kind of money you can get a brighter image from a three beam projector but sacrifice portability oh yes proper room lighting is extremely important especially if you want your audience to have enough light to read handouts and not have that light wash out your display at the front of the room tricky to get right
comp.sys.mac.hardware	toshiba e and p cd rom i notice the toshiba has versions b internal e external and p portable can anyone tell me the difference between the portable and the external version where in the sf bay area can i find a model p thanks bill william daul advanced support informix software inc bohannon dr wk menlo park ca uunet infmx billd or billd informix com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	converting keyboard for mac plus i have an old mac plus a couple of years ago i bought a shiney new lc it came with apple s new keyboard with abd ports i replaced it with a mac pro plus extended keyboard which i thoroughly enjoy thank you very much well i have this extra keyboard which i would like to use on the plus but there s a little problem the plus uses an rj jack for keyboard input and the new keyboards don t i got an extra adb cable from my local apple dealer they re such nice people but they couldn t tell me the order of the wires there are four wires in the adb cables black white red tan i know one s a ground one gets the serial signal one supplies volts and i forgot what the fourth one does anyway if you hook them up wrong you ll fry a board and i really don t want to do that if any brave souls out there have done this before please e mail your experience directly to me i would greatly appreciate it especially since apple s original keyboard is not ergonomically correct btw i did take apart my new keyboard to see if i could find the correlation between the wires for the rj jack and the adb since it has both but no such luck the connections are soldered inside of little boxes oh well tis the blink of an eye tis the draught of a breath from the blossoms of health to the paleness of death from the gilded saloon to the briar in the shroud o why should the spirit of mortal be proud william knox shagberg vm cmp ilstu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac portable internal fax modems does anyone know where i can still get an internal fax modem for the original mac portable i know they were made for a while by several manufacturers but i can t find them now thanks for your help gene wright gene jackatak raider net gene wright jackatak raider net
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac portable ram problems coprocessor not installed i just recently bought a mb ram card for my original mac portable backlit and have since had some bizarre crashes it happens when i put the machine to sleep and wake the machine up sometimes it will just freeze the cursor and lock the machine up forcing me to push the reset switch other times it will give me the usual bomb box with the error message of co processor not installed i know one solution is not to put the machine to sleep but does anyone have any ideas on what could be causing this or better yet what might fix it the memory card is psuedostatic ram and goes into the pds slot that probably figures into the problem the manufacturer is king memory not kingston from irvine ca they say the problem is in my machine any ideas gene wright gene jackatak raider net gene wright jackatak raider net
comp.sys.mac.hardware	driver for dataframe xp b i am in need of the driver for the bernoulli cartridge on a dataframe xp b the hard disk on the system got fried and i haven t been able to locate the original disks if anyone has it or know where i can get this please let me know via e mail thanks in advance wayne lyle wayne j lyle dilworth paxson kalish kauffman philadelphia pa
comp.sys.mac.hardware	questions about the centris s ram with a little luck i could own a c sometime in the near future and so i was just wondering if someone could clear these two questions up for me what speed simms does the c need want i know that it needs ns vram not sure for the main ram i ve heard two conflicting stories about the total expandibility of the c s ram and megs which is true perhaps another phrasing would be better does the meg version come with all megs on the logic board or megs a meg simm just wondering dave hollinsworth hlsw ltd uhura cc rochester edu o it s astounding time is fleeting madness takes play its toll riff raff rocky horror picture show pinball disclaimer they re my opinions are they yours
comp.sys.mac.hardware	replacing internal fdhd w floptical hi all i have a iisi with a floppy drive that might be bad and might just be out of alignment i haven t checked yet if the drive is not easily reparable i d like to replace it with an internal floptical can this be easily done can it be done at all i m assuming that floptical drives can read and write both k and k floppies if this is not in fact true please tell me thanks in advance kiran
comp.sys.mac.hardware	colour card for the lc wouldany one know afair price for an lc color card in aussie dollars just wondering the views expressed in this posting those of the individual author only bbs number maccontent is victoria s first iconic bbs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lc ram upgrade will be slow yes what you are saying is absolutey true but what you fail to mention is the fact that the lciii uses the new pin simms which allow bit access to each simm in the case of the lc iii it only has one simm slot but accesses will be bits wides the views expressed in this posting those of the individual author only bbs number maccontent is victoria s first iconic bbs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re interesting adb behaviour on c in apr waikato ac nz ldo waikato ac nz lawrence d oliveiro waikato university writes i have heard of no such warnings from anybody at apple just to be sure i asked a couple of our technicians one of whom has been servicing macs for years there is no danger of damaging logic boards by plugging and unplugging adb devices with the power on the problem is that the pins in the adb connector are close to each other and if you happen to bend the cable a little while inserting it you short the adb port if you take it to an apple repair centre that means a new motherboard though a component replace is physically possible same goes for serial ports localtalk as well cheers h jon w tte h nada kth se mac hacker deluxe this article printed on recycled electrons
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re what is rom accelerated video in qknuq ut agate berkeley edu c b jl web f berkeley edu james wang writes addressing modes commands that do fills should be slightly faster since the new instructions fetch bytes at a time versus one even the can fetch two bytes at a time the new instruction in the is move which fetches bytes at a time instead of which the has that means bit pixels instead of one cheers h jon w tte h nada kth se mac hacker deluxe this article printed on recycled electrons
comp.sys.mac.hardware	adding int hard disk drive to iicx i haven t seen much info about how to add an extra internal disk to a mac we would like to try it and i wonder if someone had some good advice we have a mac iicx with the original internal quantum mb hard disk and an unusable floppy drive we also have a new spare connor mb disk which we would like to use the idea is to replace the broken floppy drive with the new hard disk but there seems to be some problems the internal scsi cable and power cable inside the cx has only connectors for one single hard disk drive if i made a ribbon cable and a power cable with three connectors each for motherboard for each of the disks would it work is the iicx able to supply the extra power to the extra disk what about terminators i suppose that i should remove the resistor packs from the disk that is closest to the motherboard but leave them installed in the other disk the scsi id jumpers should also be changed so that the new disk gets id the old one should have id it is no problem for us to remove the floppy drive as we have an external floppy that we can use if it won t boot of the hard disk thank you torbj rn rognes email rogntorb idt unit no
comp.sys.mac.hardware	wanted m hard drive i am in the market for a m hard drive i have a iisi with and i am almost all filled up is anyone selling any hd s for the mac for cheap where can i get one through mail order and where is the best place to buy from for the best prices is there anyone on the net or on this newsgroup that sells them for wholesale or cheaper any info would be appreciated thanks
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac iisi power limitations i own a mac iisi and am considering upgrades cards hard drive etc can you tell me what the power limitations are for the pds slot and the hard drive power feed secondly can you tell me if there is a separate limit for each or if instead there is a single limit for both combined felix lin a new reader of comp sys mac hardware feilimau leland stanford edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra scsi problems attention mac quadra owners many storage industry experts have concluded that mac quadras suffer from timing irregularities deviating from the standard scsi specification this results in silent corruption of data when used with some devices including ultra modern devices although i will not name the devices since it is not their fault an example would be a sony inch mo without the special mac compatible firmware installed one solution sometimes is to disable blind writes this doesn t sound right to me don t quadras use the c if so the mac has nothing to do with the scsi timing that s all handled by the chip about the only the timing could be wrong is if apple programs the clock registers wrong on the that however should only really hurt synchronous transfer which is not used by the mac scsi manager furthermore disabling blind writes should be meaningless on a quadra on macs that used the which is a much lower level scsi chip the mac was responsible for the handshake of each byte transferred blind mode affected how the mac handled that handshake on the the handshake is entirely handled by the chip tim smith
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re can i get more than x on monitor in article carsona sfu ca carsona fraser sfu ca debra carson writes would a virtual screen of larger size be of use to you i have been using stepping out v for some time it still is working now on a powerbook with system minor problem with menubar icons at right edge what s the latest version of stepping out that works ok with s denis
comp.sys.mac.hardware	looking for free share wares hi i am looking for ftp sites where there are freewares or sharewares for mac it will help a lot if there are driver source codes in those ftp sites any information is appreciated thanks in advance s young dept of info sc univ of tokyo email young is s u tokyo ac jp
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re questions about the centris s ram in article apr galileo cc rochester edu hlsw ltd uhura cc rochester edu dave hollinsworth wrote with a little luck i could own a c sometime in the near future and so i was just wondering if someone could clear these two questions up for me what speed simms does the c need want i know that it needs ns vram not sure for the main ram ns pin simms i ve heard two conflicting stories about the total expandibility of the c s ram and megs which is true perhaps another phrasing would be better does the meg version come with all megs on the logic board or megs a meg simm configs mb mb in each case the memory is soldered on the board leaving the simm sockets open mb is the total addressable memory for a just wondering michael a mcguire mcguire utkvx utk edu utcc user services
comp.sys.mac.hardware	disappearing hard drive in lc the internal hd in my lc disappeared for a day last week and i d like to hear any reasonable theories folks can suggest for what happened it is an lc with mb of ram and an mb internal drive running system with a few scsi devices in a so far as i know properly terminated chain i had shut down the system for a day i was out of town and we sometimes have thunderstorms this time of year and upon restarting got a blinking question mark i booted from a floppy and saw that my external hd seemed okay but there was no sign of the internal i installed a system folder on the external and was indeed able to boot from it i tried things like disk first aid and silverlining to inquire about the internal drive they either could not find it or got errors in trying to talk to it silverlining claimed it was a connor drive but it is a quantum well i d backed things up so i was able to work but at some point i noticed that the internal had reappeared now disk first aid says that all s well etc things seem to be fine but what happened was this a warning that something the internal hd or something else is about to die i m definitely nervous and if this is a signal that the internal hd is sick is it true that i can only put up to a mb drive inside an lc some folks have claimed there s a limitation in the lc other n size or power while others and that includes lacie over the phone say anything that fits is okay thanks for answers
comp.sys.mac.hardware	disabling all power management interrupts could someone please do one of the following point to an init that allows me to turn off power management on my duo write an init that would allow me to turn off all power management on duo point me to documentation on power management so that i can write such an init explain to me why such an init is totally or partially impossible ideally of course i would like to be able to turn in on and off on the fly surely such an init would be very helpful to powerbook owners who want to do midi i cannot imagine why it is not possible to do unless it requires apple to divluge some secret and if that is the case the surely apple could write the init unless apple brings out new models so fast these days that even they don t know how they work scott petrack petrack haifasc vnet ibm com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re apple announce new performas versions of the in article apr desire wright edu demon desire wright edu not a boomer writes apple announced that it will start selling three new vesions of its performa the new machines will have built in modems and bundled software the new models will be the and prices are not set by apple but by the retailer the prices of the new machines are expected to range from what kind of post is this if you have something substantial to tell the world then at least give us details so what if they are coming out with new macs they always do that what s new about these models etc
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re desktop rebuild and datadesk keyboard my datadesk mac e keyboard has similar problems i have found that holding down the right hand shift key at startup will work disable extensions but the left hand shift key won t which is unfortunate since the left one is the one i instinctively reach for similarly i have trained myself to hold down the right hand pair of command option for desktop rebuilds i is irritating cheers michael michael smith smith pell anu edu au mathematics research section australian national university
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re memory upgrades jacob plasma ssl berkeley edu nga throgaw shaygiy writes excuse me if this is a frequent question i checked in several faqs but couldn t really find anything you are excused the answer varies from mac to mac so it would be a complex answer in the faq i have a iisi with the standard meg memory and i want need to add additional memory but i m on a budget i really don t need more than meg max so what is the best performance wise and most economical way to do this someone told me that i should only use simms of the same amount of memory that is meg meg etc what if i just wanted to buy just meg and use the rest of what i already have the manual hasn t been very helpful with this the si uses a bit wide data bus and therefore you must use bit wide simms sorry but no short cuts here thanks you re quite welcome greg my words not motorola s equal rights not special rights gpb gpb mac sps mot com bi i will not ride in the back of the bus greg berryman silence death motorola austin texas usa first be true to yourself glb mailing list glblist gpb mac sps mot com motorola only
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re ok to set lbs on top of centris i had the same question for my lb nec fg monitor the apple guy said that their lb monitor is ok to put ontop of the centris and had no coment beyond that i was going to just put the nec on the box but then i got to thinking the monitor has a small tilt swivel base so maybe the weight would be more concentrated than with apple s i don t know the area of the base of their tilt swivel additionally the cdrom drive is in the middle so i cut a piece of thick wood to about x covered it in a cream covered cloth and used it as a buffer layer between the centris s top and the monitor mick mueck mick mueck analog com i hate chipsoft s macintax
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re thunderscan got a spare imagewriter cover anyone have the replacement cover needed to use thunderscan with an imagewriter i or can i fool the printer into working without its own cover by sticking a suitable magnet into its cover sensor thanks for any help ralph the magnet trick will work be careful when you apply the white tape to the rubber carriage roller it tells the scanner where the edge is and it can come off jim edgeways infolink name edgeway wimsey bc ca gui bbs voice the views expressed here are of the individual author only from firstclass tm by postalunion lite tm from north vancouver bc canada
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lciii problems in article apr leland stanford edu ravi konchigeri mongoose leland stanford edu writes finally got my computer fixed and i d like to sum up about hard drive companies the original meg drive that was bad bad sector or something was an ibm the new one is a quantum is the lciii supposed to be shipped with ibms is there a quality difference apparently second about hard drive position i ve put the lciii on its side and the new hd has had no problems at all i ve even switched back and forth between horizontal and vertical and there are no problems as far as i m concerned i don t believe hd position is important for drives up to meg in any computer don t know about cd rom though just like everything else in life the right lane ends in half a mile ravi konchigeri mongoose leland stanford edu ravi its not a good idea to have a horizontally formatted hard disk in a vertical position if the drive is formatted in a horizontal position it can not completely compensate for the gravitational pull in a vertical position i m not saying that your hard disk will fail tomorrow or months from now but why take that chance if you want more detailed info on the problem please mail me at sunnyt dna bchs uh edu sunny
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lciii problems sideways hd s in article qmgjk ao menudo uh edu sunnyt coding bchs uh edu writes its not a good idea to have a horizontally formatted hard disk in a vertical position if the drive is formatted in a horizontal position it can not completely compensate for the gravitational pull in a vertical position i m not saying that your hard disk will fail tomorrow or months from now but why take that chance if you want more detailed info on the problem please mail me at sunnyt dna bchs uh edu sunny i asked this question a while ago while contemplating placing my on it s side i received a response from someone at seagate sorry i trashed the message stating that most newer drives seagates at the least can very well compensate for gravity this means that a horizontally formatted drive can be later placed vertically with no data integrity problems the only way that newer drives cannot work is if you have varying forces shaking bouncing etc so don t place the drive on it s side on a rocking chair what constitutes a newer drive i don t know try calling your drive manufacturer i have a quantum lp s internal and since i got it a month ago i am guessing it s newer t
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re i want use deskjet on system in article mori apr ceres mfd cs fujitsu co jp mori volga mfd cs fujitsu co jp tsuyoshi mori writes i used hp deskjet with orange micros grappler ls on system but now i update system to system with kanji talk then i can not print by my deskjet is the grappler ls old can i use deskjet on system please tell me how to use deskjet on system thank you from japan mori volga mfd cs fujitsu co jp i currently use an hp deskjet with grappler ls ver and it works on system course i only use the swa dutch and swa swiss fonts that came with it due to the x size requirement to print to the hp ie must have pnt definition to print a pnt font when i upgraded i talked to orange micro and they state that ver of grappler ls definitely works with system however the upgrade was us so i passed hope this helps marc marc donovan donovan bnr ca voice fax disclaimer i am the only one responsible for my opinions
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lciii powerpc mirsky hal gnu ai mit edu david joshua mirsky writes hi i own an lciii and i recently heard an interesting rumor i heard that the lciii has a built in slot for a powerpc chip is this true i heard that the slot is not the same as the pds slot is that true don t believe the hype there is no such thing as a powerpc slot hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra scsi problems i don t know about the specific problem mentioned in your message but i definitely had scsi problems between my q and my venerable jasmine megadrive cartridge drives my solution was to get silverlining none of the loops that involved blind writes worked to the drives in fact the only loop that worked was the macintosh software loop whatever that means mark
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra scsi problems tzs stein u washington edu tim smith writes attention mac quadra owners many storage industry experts have concluded that mac quadras suffer from timing irregularities deviating from the standard scsi specification this results in silent corruption of data when used with some devices including ultra modern devices although i will not name the devices since it is not their fault an example would be a sony inch mo without the special mac compatible firmware installed one solution sometimes is to disable blind writes this doesn t sound right to me don t quadras use the c if so the mac has nothing to do with the scsi timing that s all handled by the chip about the only the timing could be wrong is if apple programs the clock registers wrong on the that however should only really hurt synchronous transfer which is not used by the mac scsi manager furthermore disabling blind writes should be meaningless on a quadra on macs that used the which is a much lower level scsi chip the mac was responsible for the handshake of each byte transferred blind mode affected how the mac handled that handshake on the the handshake is entirely handled by the chip the docs say that it s a scsi manager bug if this changes things at all jim jagielski and he s gonna stiff me so i say jim jagubox gsfc nasa gov hey lama how about something nasa gsfc code you know for the effort greenbelt md
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra scsi problems in article apr mintaka lcs mit edu nodine lcs mit edu mark h nodine writes i don t know about the specific problem mentioned in your message but i definitely had scsi problems between my q and my venerable jasmine megadrive cartridge drives my solution was to get silverlining none of the loops that involved blind writes worked to the drives in fact the only loop that worked was the macintosh software loop whatever that means i doubt this is a quadra specific problem i had to get rid of my venerable bernoulli last year with enough cartridges purchased at each to make the whole thing worth more than my whole computer the tech support guys at ocean microsystems suggested that some third party drivers might fix the problem in my case the cartridges wouldn t format mount partition for a ux bill johnston johnston me udel edu chambers street newark de
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re mac ii scsi pmmu socket question in article qkmb n d jethro corp sun com khc marantz corp sun com writes the mac ii is supposed to have a socket for the mc pmmu chip could anyone let me know where that socket is on the motherboard i have obtained a pmmu chip mhz from a surplus store and would like to install it onto my mac ii circa but i cannot see the socket myself when i tried to install it the original mac ii had an apple mmu chip installed which performs a subset of the s functions if you look underneath your front left floppy bay you will find three chips all approximately the same size one will be the the next the and the third approximately the same size will be the apple chip it is easy to spot because it has a hump in the middle of it example that and the apple logo should make it easy to find ben mpretzel cs utexas edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lciii problems ravi konchigeri mongoose leland stanford edu writes about hard drive companies the original meg drive that was bad bad sector or something was an ibm the new one is a quantum is the lciii supposed to be shipped with ibms is there a quality difference officially no from experience yours now included yes quantums seem to be the most problem free brand on the mac second about hard drive position i ve put the lciii on its side and the new hd has had no problems at all i ve even switched back and forth between horizontal and vertical and there are no problems as far as i m concerned i don t believe hd position is important for drives up to meg in any computer don t know about cd rom though it should not matter for the hard drive or the mac well as long as it doesn t fall over doug this signature under construction wyvern technologies tidewater s premier online information system login guest password guest to register
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re noisy se what can i do in article qk rjinn cae cad gatech edu vincent cad gatech edu vincent fox writes there s this old se here it s got the older style fans that remind me of a house ventilator a cylindrical drum instead of the bladed rotor i usually see anyway the se makes this loud buzzing noise due to vibration somewheres if i remove the screws and loosen the front from the back it quiets down i can only assume that the fan housing from this goofy thing is touching the back of the case and vibrating against it anyway any suggestions for where to get replacement fans and how to stealth this guy your experiences welcome if everything had gone as planned everything would have been perfect batf spokesperson on cnn regarding failed raid attempt in tx when i owned an se i replaced the fan with se silencer available i believe from macwarehouse or macconnection it comes with instruction for installation and requires no soldering worked like a charm i think the manufacturer is mobius dave dlc umcc ais org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lc iii nubus capable mmiller garnet msen com marvin miller writes my friend recently purchased a lc iii and he wants to know if there is such a demon called nubus adapter for his pds slot compusa and computercity supercenter says they don t carry them does this mean lc iii is incapable of carrying a nubus board yes that is exactly what it means the lc family of macs can only use pds cards they are not able to use nubus hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re desktop rebuild and datadesk keyboard smith pell anu edu au michael smith writes similarly i have trained myself to hold down the right hand pair of command option for desktop rebuilds i tried the right set and it didn t work i m on the phone to their tech support right now and the guys doesn t know what a desktop rebuild is he s got me holding for someone else and holding and holding and holding ok they finally got back to me and said basically it should work well it doens t and they don t know why guess it will go back to macconnection and i ll buy something else i ve got better things to do than play musical keyboards terry
comp.sys.mac.hardware	g qxf fekvh regards rod cerkoney rod cerkoney ms email hewlett packard rodc fc hp com east harmony rd hpdesk fort collins co hp ux
comp.sys.mac.hardware	fpu in an se probably a dumb question is it possible to fit an fpu in a mac se not a se but the plain old se if possible would i get any speed increase what would be the reference of the chip thanks in advance sylvain r y louboutin phone e mail sloubtin dsg cs tcd ie distributed system group o reilly institute room f fax department of computer science trinity college dublin ireland ask
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lciii powerpc in article qksuq tt hal gnu ai mit edu mirsky hal gnu ai mit edu david joshua mirsky writes hi i own an lciii and i recently heard an interesting rumor i heard that the lciii has a built in slot for a powerpc chip is this true i heard that the slot is not the same as the pds slot is that true thanks david mirsky mirsky gnu ai mit edu well i also have an lc iii popping the top revealed one socket for an additional vram simm one socket for a pin ram simm one socket for a flat pack fpu a processor direct slot pds identical to the lc lc ii but with an additional set of connetions to one side for the full bit data path that the lc lc ii lacked that s it i guess a board with a powerpc chip could be made that would fit in the pds but that s the only place andre molyneux ka wvv insert your favorite disclaimer here pyramid technology corp internet n first street andrem pyramid com san jose ca packet ka wvv n ary nocal ca usa na
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re questions about the centris s ram in article mcguire f newsserver utcc utk edu mcguire utkvx utk edu michael a mcguire wrote in article apr galileo cc rochester edu hlsw ltd uhura cc rochester edu dave hollinsworth wrote with a little luck i could own a c sometime in the near future and so i was just wondering if someone could clear these two questions up for me what speed simms does the c need want i know that it needs ns vram not sure for the main ram ns pin simms i ve heard two conflicting stories about the total expandibility of the c s ram and megs which is true perhaps another phrasing would be better does the meg version come with all megs on the logic board or megs a meg simm configs mb mb in each case the memory is soldered on the board leaving the simm sockets open mb is the total addressable memory for a according to the seen several times postings from dale adams of apple computer both the and the require ns simms not ns only the centris requires ns simms pete
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re hd setup partition was ok to set lbs on top of centris in article apr urbana mcd mot com feldman urbana mcd mot com mike feldman wrote now if i can figure out if there s any hope using the partition button on the hard disk setup utility do i dare just try it and see what happens then maybe i can divide up the wealth among the family members a bit more securly the getting more information section of the manual suggested trying other avenues before calling apple but didn t mention the net mike feldman motorola computer group fax east university avenue pager in il urbana il mcdphx uiucuxc udc feldman feldman urbana mcd mot com the partition button in apple s hd setup lets you set up a ux and other types of partitions it won t let you create more than one normal mac volume you need silverlining or something similar to do that it will however allow you to take advantage of some possible unused space on your hard disk if you don t mind reformatting the whole thing chris ellens ellens bnr ca
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re performa internal modem in article lsrk innr s news bbn com ado quince bbn com buz owen writes i hear that the performa is really an lciii with an internal modem can the modem part be obtained and installed in an lciii it would be nice if it were actually a powerbook internal modem but that might be too much to hope for i believe you were misinformed i checked out one of the p s at sears last week the modem is external bps data with send only fax
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re can i get more than x on monitor try maxapplezoom a shareware init if your monitor is not driven by internal video chen
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re pb memory upgrade jeffe eniac seas upenn edu george writes does the pb use different memory than the newer models i am looking to buy a mb upgrade so i need to know which other powerbooks use the same mb card i think all powerbooks use the same meg upgrade but the meg and meg upgrades are different for the pb than for the other pbs eric smith erics netcom com erics infoserv com ci
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lc ram upgrade will be slow douce tfsquad mn org andrew geweke writes i cannot speak for dale but i am quite sure that the macintosh uses the full bit or bit data path to its full advantage that is it is running as fast with two or four pin simms as it would with one pin simm now it may be that longword accesses assuming a bit data path here get the first byte from the first simm the second byte from the second and so on this would mean that each longword of memory is actually split among four simms one for each byte on the other hand it could be that the simms are interleaved by word or longword not just by byte or they could be successive in memory and the memory controller deals with the eight bit data path that each one has i suspect though that they are interleaved to some extent so that bits can be read or written at once this would indicate a byte level interleave i am not confusing this with the new machines longword interleave with two pin simms of the same sort although that seems to be the same sort of idea there you get an essential bit data path ro excuse me to ram instead of just a bit one yes the cpu can t handle it but when writing to successive addresses it speeds something up so dale am i right pin simms are interleaved by bytes allowing the full data bus or as is common with usenet and me in particular am i as clueless as everyone else what conclusion can be drawn from this i m trying to figure out what kind of memory configuration for the lc iii bit datapath would be fastest any ideas thanks jason macdonald jason scott macdonald jsm cornell edu jsm crux cit cornell edu technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic cats exist so that we arthur c clarke may caress the lion
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lciii cache card anyone seen any press releases or heard any rumors of a cache card for the lciii now that it has the full data bus width on the pds slot maurice internet lriggins afit af mil
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help need modem info for duo hi what alternatives to the express modem do duo owners have if they want to go at least baud every place in town says they are back ordered and part of the reason i want a laptop mac is so i can use it as a remote terminal from wherever i am but i really would hate to have to wait months to get a modem in or have to settle with baud thank you
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re how long do ram simm s last in article apr ultb isc rit edu jek ultb isc rit edu j e king wrote doesn t a mb simm have about moving flip flops they don t move to anybody much bigger than an electron noah noah apple com macintosh hardware design sun decwrl apple noah not the opinions of apple computer inc
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra scsi problems in article qm hvinnseq shelley u washington edu tzs stein u washington edu tim smith wrote attention mac quadra owners many storage industry experts have concluded that mac quadras suffer from timing irregularities deviating from the standard scsi specification this results in silent corruption of data when used with some devices including ultra modern devices although i will not name the devices since it is not their fault that s fine but would you name the industy experts so i can try to track this down this doesn t sound right to me don t quadras use the c if so the mac has nothing to do with the scsi timing that s all handled by the chip yup that s why i m kinda curious most scsi problems i ve encountered are due to cabling noah noah apple com macintosh hardware design sun decwrl apple noah not the opinions of apple computer inc
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lc iii nubus capable in article qkkq ev nigel msen com mmiller garnet msen com marvin miller wrote my friend recently purchased a lc iii and he wants to know if there is such a demon called nubus adapter for his pds slot compusa and computercity supercenter says they don t carry them does this mean lc iii is incapable of carrying a nubus board apple doesn t make such a card though i suppose a third party could one big problem is that there isn t room for a standard nubus card inside the lc iii noah noah apple com macintosh hardware design sun decwrl apple noah not the opinions of apple computer inc
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re what to put in centris internal bay in article c jfnp fcx world std com jbailey world std com jim bailey wrote hades coos dartmouth edu brian v hughes writes tzs stein u washington edu tim smith writes jbailey world std com jim bailey writes yes you get internal mixing of the analog cd audio outputs with the mac generated audio on the mac motherboard also you can sample the cd audio using the sound control panel by clicking on the options button next to the microphone icon how do you click on the options button i ve never seen it undimmed the latest word on this is you have to disconnect the microphone cable on the motherboard then the button is supposed to un dim the audio will simply select the cd audio when the microphone is removed i don t believe the button un dims since there s nothing to select i haven t tracked down a centris to check this on though sorry i assumed that the the various new machines with the internal cd rom bay worked the same as the quadra obviously they don t yup i made the same mistake several months ago when this issue came up before noah noah apple com macintosh hardware design sun decwrl apple noah not the opinions of apple computer inc
comp.sys.mac.hardware	x x how do they compare i m sure intel and motorola are competing neck and neck for crunch power but for a given clock speed how do we rank the following from st to th while you re at it where will the following fit into the list pentium powerpc and about clock speed does doubling the clock speed double the overall processor speed and fill in the s below mhz mhz thanks very much i d appreciate hearing any further explanations from any experienced folks out there too p s folks have been having trouble replying to me lately with the reply command try typing my address by hand and it should work thanks dave kitabjian kit ahb jyin vital statistics k east garden way favorite guitarist phil keaggy dayton nj favorite computer macintosh c c spaghetti preference semi broken o tredysvr ubbpc dhk tp installation pref over the top gvls vfl paramax com favorite book bible favorite rush limbaugh commercial taxula part iii favorite contradiction pro child pro choice
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re hp deskwriter c opinions feedback i like it a lot it is worth the additional expense the only problem i found is with ms word a if you have a table the is longer than a page and the cells have a visible border the last bottom of page line on the first page will be missing it makes no difference how the table is formatted the worst is that it doesn t show up in word s page view or page preview arie arie covrigaru university of michigan ai lab phone room advanced technology bldg internet arie eecs umich edu beal ave ann arbor mi
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re how long do ram simm s last in article noah noah apple com noah apple com noah price writes in article apr ultb isc rit edu jek ultb isc rit edu j e king wrote doesn t a mb simm have about moving flip flops they don t move to anybody much bigger than an electron dynamic ram is not based on flip flops there s basically a single transistor and capacitor to store each bit static ram is based on flip flops and is much more expensive and much less dense and neither has any parts that move if electrons and thermal expansion are ignored noah chris chris wood bellcore ccw ctt bellcore com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re floptical question in article bmyers slip x ots utexas edu billy lee myers bmyers ccwf cc utexas edu writes floptical is of course a different technology and doesn t enjoy the long term data storage of opticals and the last time i looked floptical disk weren t all that cheap per floptical disk per megabyte per sysquest is per megabyte i don t know how many times i ve posted this the net no one ever listens once and for all floptical media is only a megabyte if you don t know where to buy it i am bying my flopticals at per disks i see that as a meagabyte not no i m not buying in bulk i m not getting a special deal a meg is good in my book approching floppy price any questions on my source can be sent to ctr po cwru edu chris chris roberts here we go again ctr po cwru edu ctr pyrite som cwru edu roberts snowhite eeap cwru edu roberts alpha ces cwru edu well at least you know where to find me now logged in a terminal checking my mail
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mz for sale absolutely never used i have a new mhz motorola that i am willing to sell if i get a good enough offer it is still in its static free sealed package if i don t get a good enough offer i will use it to replace my lc any takers supposedly you can get one of these for however at the moment the demand is higher than the supply so i think is a good round number i will pay shipping of course all offers should be send to lewallen cis ohio state edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	updated keyboard question for the plus i have an old mac plus a couple of years ago i bought a shiney new lc it came with apple s new keyboard with abd ports i replaced it with a mac pro plus extended keyboard which i thoroughly enjoy thank you very much well i have this extra keyboard which i would like to use on the plus but there s a little problem the plus uses an rj jack for keyboard input and the new keyboards don t i got an extra adb cable from my local apple dealer they re such nice people but they couldn t tell me the order of the wires there are four wires in the adb cables black white red tan i know one s a ground one gets the serial signal one supplies volts and i forgot what the fourth one does anyway if you hook them up wrong you ll fry a board and i really don t want to do that if any brave souls out there have done this before please e mail your experience directly to me i would greatly appreciate it especially since apple s original keyboard is not ergonomically correct btw i did take apart my new keyboard to see if i could find the correlation between the wires for the rj jack and the adb since it has both but no such luck the connections are soldered inside of little boxes oh well one more thing in case you are thinking that the abd ports on the newer models are different from the connection used on the plus you re right however you can use the telephone cable from the plus and connect the mac pro plus keyboard via its own rj jack in other words this little engineering feat i wish to do is possible it s merely a matter of finding out the correct order omt when i get this to work i definitely will post the solution so others can too thanx for the input tis the blink of an eye tis the draught of a breath from the blossoms of health to the paleness of death from the gilded saloon to the briar in the shroud o why should the spirit of mortal be proud william knox shagberg vm cmp ilstu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re iisi clock upgrades i too have been watching the iisi speedup reports and plan to upgrade in the next few weeks the plan i have is to build a small board with a few different crystals on it and to be able to switch between the different speeds using a front pannel switch this way i can get the speed when i want but i can also run at slower stock speeds it i experience any compatability problems with any applications i don t expect to be able to switch clock speeds with the system running but if i can switch without any lock up problems then i could switch to mhz when needed and put it back to idle mhz when not needeed this would further reduce the wear and tear on the cpu even with a heat sink of course i would not want to run the different clock signals through the switch but use a chip or two on the board to select the frequency desired and route it directly to the mother board i haven t started probing around inside my si yet does anyone know the voltage level to power the crystal oscilators thanks tom dickens boeing computer services tpd yak ca boeing com these statements are mine and not boeing s
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re which fax modem is the best well i am using the home office i bought it for arounde it does i don t know if it s for data or fax but the feature i use is the voic mail box which i really have liked captain zod zod ncube com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	accelaratores do the accelaratores make a lot of difference as i understand there is graphics and cpu accelaration does graphics accelarator help out with the scanner and the photo shop is combination of both practical i have a mac iici what kinds of accelaratores can i use captain zod zod ncube com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	photo shop scanner i have a macc iici and a color scanner i scanned a picture at dpi when i try to print it on my hp color printer after minutes of making noise the mac hangs i would need to reboot it what does this mean do i need to buy more memory i have mb now i also have about mb of disk free and the scanned picture is about mb captain zod zod ncube com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re mac plus is constantly rebooting on a side note has anyone ever had a mac plus smoke out on them we have had four machines that all of a sudden start emitting a thick grayish white smoke in each case it was a capacitor that had gone bad has anyone else encountered this keith cooley ee macintosh lab administrator louisiana tech university tkc engr latech edu we ve had it happen a time or two beginning students think it is pretty entertaining when it happens during a lab lecture or demonstration
comp.sys.mac.hardware	request info on floptical drives i m considering adding a floptical drive to my current system what i would like to know is which floptical drives are recommended for their quality and performance my preference would be floptical drives capable of handling both k and k floppies but handling k floppies is not a necessity so far i only know a bit about the iomega floptical and the infinity floptical drives are there any comments recommendations for either of these are there any other floptical drives that are worth looking into and where can they be purchased i e which mail order places etc thanks in advance please send replies directly to umsoroko ccu umanitoba ca mike sorokowski umsoroko ccu umanitoba ca
comp.sys.mac.hardware	for sale teleport adb bps modem w send fax i am selling my global village teleport bps modem w send fax it connects to the mac through the adb port the software for sending faxes is included i am asking however i will consider other reasonable offers please e mail me dave dave peak internet dppeak matt ksu ksu edu aol skibum
comp.sys.mac.hardware	for sale mb ns simms i have two meg simms that i am trying to sell i had them in my lc i would like to get for each one they are only three months old and have a lifetime warrenty they are ns simms i will also consider other reasonable offers please e mail me dave internet dppeak matt ksu ksu edu aol skibum
comp.sys.mac.hardware	put ex syquest in centris i remember reading a thread a few days ago that mentioned removing an external syquest drive from its case and dropping it in the internal drive of a centris i was going to do that with my but had a couple of questions my pli m syquest drive has a wire from the drive to an id switch on the outside of the case where do i connect this switch can the computer just tell with internal drives i noticed that the drive will lay over part of the motherboard i didn t look closely but i seem to recall it laying over the ram that s soldered onto the motherboard would that cause problems one last question is there anywhere to order a faceplate cover the drive s front panel is smaller than the space left in the case the drive s panel is the same size as the spotsbm clone s cases should i just cut a hole in the plastic panel that is currently holding tmpty place ans are welcomed thanks keith moffatt kmoffatt vax cstp umkc edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re iici q upgrade in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu dudek daeron mcrcim mcgill edu gregory dudek wrote in article c ha x oq austin ibm com login austin ibm com writes a while ago i posted a note asking for specs on the quadra and opinions on the q upgrade of a iici vs an accelerator card so far no responsed that i ve noticed please let me know what you think of these possible upgrade paths cost efficiency pros cons etc thanks complete q are best obtained from your dealer or some recent copy of macworld or macuser my foggy memory suggests that the most relevant comparison factors vis a vis a iici are as follows mhz mhz data path don t recall this for sure but it s slower than q style machines for sure ethertalk card on board audio in out mb ram on motherboard simm slots nubus slots more flexible build in video than the ci uses vram in comparison a iici with an accelerator won t give you audio or ethernet or the same video options with a accelerator cpu performance can be comparable but i think it ends up costing more greg dudek actually an accelerator such as the daystar mhz is cheaper than upgrading to a q mhz the accelerator costs about whereas the upgrade costs just quoted from my dealer however the q upgrade gives you very fast built in video that supports monitors up to with bit depth and up to at bit depth with additional vram it also has a scsi port capable of a much faster throughput than the ci which makes a big difference if you have a fast hard drive if the improved video and scsi features are important to you you re better off getting the q upgrade otherwise save some money and get an accelerator paul
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadras vram question hi there i have a question regarding quadras vram i have tried to find info on this but i could not get precise answers on one hand we have a quadra with a monitor which is capable of bit color how much vram does it have on the other hand we have a quadra with a monitor which is capable of bit color only so it must have ko of vram i would like to take vram simms for the and put them in the so that both machines have bit color capability is it possible and if yes how many vram simms should i take from the from the documentation i have the quadra must get mo vram to have bit color is that correct bonus question where do vram simms hide from the documentation they seem to be behind the power supply do i really have to take off the power supply to access the vram simms thanks for your help daniel salber user interface research team lgi imag grenoble france salber imag fr
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitor for lciii hi folks i m planning to buy a lciii but need advice on choosing a monitor what do people recommend for a decent monitor i v looked at some ads and the spec for nec fg fge and the price is within my budget but could lciii be able to use the various resolutions available on fg specifically the x resolution does lciii only support one resolution also any recommendations for a reliable mail order place for lciii or monitors does anyone have experience with the following mail order places syex express houston tx usa flex bloomingdale il thanks jeff jeff lian lian mti sgi com or lian mips com mips technologies inc n shoreline boulevard p o box m s l
comp.sys.mac.hardware	fax modem for the mac hi all thanks to you all who have responded to my request for info on various kinds of fax modem i d like to ask a few more questions what are the advantages of buying a global village teleport gold over other cheaper brands like supra zoom etc i heard that both supra and zoom use the same software why are there so many complaints about the incompatibility problems of supra what kind of incompatibility is it if i decided to buy the teleport gold is there any possibility to add a voice option in the near future has anyone heard of a possible voice option that supra will offer this coming summer a person did mention a new at t modem is it getting good reviews from various mac magazines if i want the best fastest most economically sound and possible voice option what fax modem should i buy sorry for posting so many questions but i think they re necessary i promise to repost any answers if they re not already posted by a responder thanks so much in advance regards thian
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re macs suck buy a pc this is a test erme
comp.sys.mac.hardware	se acc graphics card are there any graphics cards for the se that also have say an accelerator there seem to be plenty of accelerator graphics cards for the se but none that i ve seen for the se thanks matt madsen mmadsen ics uci edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	adb mouse ii ergo when when is apple supposed to start bundlign the new ergonomic adb mouse ii with all cpus sold jas jeffrey a sullivan research scientist et al jas isi edu internet information sciences institute compuserve university of southern california
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help scsi woes on mac iifx i am having trouble with scsi on a mac iifx the machine is years old and i have been using the same hard drive internal maxtor lxt s for two and a half years the disk recently crashed i reformatted silverlining but during the reformat i received random write errors during testing the error message reported was like sector write error detected after testing good sector not mapped out this occurred randomly all over the hard disk which makes me suspect the diagnostic s reference to sector on the third reformat and after reinstalling the scsi read write loops i was able to get through passes and with no errors pass for some reason reported a lot of errors but still mapped out no sectors i decided to go ahead and try to resinstall system and reload my data from a backup this proceded normally however i now have sub optimal performance symptoms include o frequent crashes o instances of extremely sluggish disk access requiring a reboot to correct o instances of not finding the disk on the scsi chain on reboot if i boot from norton utl after this occurs it cannot find the disk either the only thing that fixes this is recycling the power it sometimes requires several attempts questions has anyone had this type of problem before is the problem with the fx motherboard and its non standard scsi implementation or with my maxtor disk is there some diagnostic software that would help me make this determination is it a termination problem i currently have external syquest and an external dataframe xp on the chain the xp is at the end and has internal termination so i am not using the iifx terminator i do have the scsi filter installed on the internal drive i have run with this exact steup for years with one previous disk crash requiring a reformat about a year ago i also have symptoms if i disconnect the external devices so i don t see how scsi termination would now be an issue of course who knows help would be much appreciated forrest e lumpkin iii nasa ames research center lumpkin corvus arc nasa gov
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re dsp or other cards for fft s anyone in article qjnpi bsj nz rz uni karlsruhe de ig fg rz uni karlsruhe de thomas koenig wrote we are doing heavy duty image processing with some seriously underpowered mac s mac iisi for example most of the cpu time is burned in doing fft s what cards are out there which would allow us to take away that part of the load from the cpu any dsp or i cards out there for example they d have to be callable from think pascal to replace the one and two dimensional fft s routines in an already existing program check out the national instruments nb dsp this uses the texas instruments tms c chip which is a true bit floating point dsp it s pricey however
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re high resolution adc for mac ii in article qidk innhk iskut ucs ubc ca rob douglas douglas ecc ubc ca wrote in article qhfmg hoh lll winken llnl gov charles e cunningham cec imager writes i would like to buy a bit adc card for the mac ii with digitization rate of at least khz preferably khz i would prefer one with good differential and integral linearity and dma would be a plus other than national instruments do you know of any other vendor who sells such a card instrutech corp has a nice looking bit a d and d a board that can run at the speeds you want the itc doesn t have dma but it does have a good sized fifo that can buffer your samples instrutech can be reached at or fax i don t know about the instrutech boards though i plan to check them out but you need to be very careful checking the monotonicity and s n ratio of many of the bit boards out there the ni boards are very clearly specified in terms of monotonicity s n ratio accuracy etc and the nb a and nb a have all the dyynamic range and freedom from distortion that you d expect from a good true bit converter this is not true for the spectral innovations boards for example
comp.sys.mac.hardware	iivx c upgrade question if you get teh iivx c upgrade does it include a new sticker to cover the iivx identifier with a centris indetifier jas jeffrey a sullivan research scientist et al jas isi edu internet information sciences institute compuserve university of southern california
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pds vs nubus was re lc iii nubus capable in article c kzls kkb dartvax dartmouth edu hades coos dartmouth edu brian v hughes writes mmiller garnet msen com marvin miller writes my friend recently purchased a lc iii and he wants to know if there is such a demon called nubus adapter for his pds slot the lc family of macs can only use pds cards they are not able to use nubus ah but why can some technically hip macslinger tell us what the difference is between pds and nubus is it impossible to make a gadget that plugs into pds and ends in a nubus card cage at least marvin s friend has not been able to locate one and neither have i what is the fundamental reason for this o zap bill higgins fermi national accelerator laboratory bitnet higgins fnal bitnet internet higgins fnal fnal gov span hepnet higgins
comp.sys.mac.hardware	power supplies for mac s i thnik i ll be able to pick up a piar of mac k s for nothing but their power supplies are dead anyone know where i can pick up a pair of refurbished ps s for cheap preferably mail order yes i do have uses planned fior them one will be sold to a friend who just needs a terminal to connect via modem to his e mail account the other will be used by me as a net client to run my downloads and or printing also what is the latest system software usable with these suckers
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re help duo problems chess cats ucsc edu brian vantuyl chess writes i just got a duo and i m having some difficulties if the machine is plugged in to the wall adapter put to sleep unplugged from the wall and woken up it crashes of the time there s nothing but the original system software on the machine the battery has plenty of life i think this must be a power manager problem but i don t know what to do about it also the speaker occasionally makes a high pitched hiss the noise is irregular but seems to favor sleep and restart commands i ve had my duo for a few weeks now and suffer from both of the above problems i reinstalled my system software twice in an effort to combat the problems thinking they were system software problems initially reinstalling the system seemed to help but not anymore occasionally when i try to wake up the duo i get a solid screen of horizontal lines on the screen it freezes i also get the high pitched hiss occasionally but only at startup i ve called the apple hotline sos appl three times already and finally they agreed something is astray after my duo s screen would go dim and the hard drive spun down by itselft and put itself to sleep this problem only occured twice apple sent me a box to ship my duo to be looked at in new york but the problem now is intermittent and i can t afford to be without my duo at this time anyone out there with these same problems brian cherkas bcherkas netcom com i aol brianc compuserve netcom online communication services san jose ca
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re lciii problems in article qmgjk ao menudo uh edu sunnyt coding bchs uh edu writes its not a good idea to have a horizontally formatted hard disk in a vertical position if the drive is formatted in a horizontal position it can not completely compensate for the gravitational pull in a vertical position i m not saying that your hard disk will fail tomorrow or months from now but why take that chance if you want more detailed info on the problem please i think the other replies sum up the fact that you can place a hard drive on its side the point is this will only be sure to work on the new drives namely ht lps drives that have a smaller platter and are also more stable why should i take the chance because i ve been running a maxtor ht lps on both its side and flat for about a year and i ve had no problems with it period like i always say never trust the manufacturer just like everything else in life the right lane ends in half a mile ravi konchigeri mongoose leland stanford edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	video cable options there was a discussion a couple of weeks ago about using different cables to achieve different resolutions on the quadra and centris series a company that sold the cables was mentioned can someone please e mail me the companies name address etc and any other info that may be relevant just like everything else in life the right lane ends in half a mile ravi konchigeri mongoose leland stanford edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re duo crashes aftersleep looks like apple bug this is a test
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powerpc ruminations was re lciii powerpc in article pyramid pyramid com andrem pyrtech mis pyramid com andre molyneux writes in article qksuq tt hal gnu ai mit edu mirsky hal gnu ai mit edu david joshua mirsky writes hi i own an lciii and i recently heard an interesting rumor i heard that the lciii has a built in slot for a powerpc chip is this true i heard that the slot is not the same as the pds slot is that true thanks david mirsky mirsky gnu ai mit edu well i also have an lc iii popping the top revealed one socket for an additional vram simm one socket for a pin ram simm one socket for a flat pack fpu a processor direct slot pds identical to the lc lc ii but with an additional set of connetions to one side for the full bit data path that the lc lc ii lacked that s it i guess a board with a powerpc chip could be made that would fit in the pds but that s the only place so will it be possible to have a nubus or pds powerpc upgrade or will it require a logic board swap it would be interesting for apple to come out with a nubus powerpc that allowed use of the cpu s x like rocketshare but i guess that s getting a bit fantastic i was wondering since macweek reported that developers were seeded with powerpcs on a nubus card also any word on machine arrivals or estimated speed last i heard the estimates were around times the speed of a quadra in native risc mode i heard an apple employee mumble something about the arrival of powerpc machines at a much earlier date that q but i doubt it s true finally is the powerpc developer s cd mini course available i saw it advertised in the developer s university calendar and i d like to know if it s at all interesting sean seanmcd ac dal ca
comp.sys.mac.hardware	don t repair that sticky mouse button call apple x posted to comp sys mac hardware and misc consumers you ve heard about apple s great new customer support program well think again sometimes the only real support out there is what apple computer users can give to each other for another example read on in the march th issue of macweek ric ford described a two year effort by liam breck to document and bring to apple s attention a problem with certain defective mice at random the switches on these mice stick in the down position until clicked a second time apparently regardless of the machine they are used with or the system software involved most of the reported problem mice were manufactured in malaysia and have an fcc id of bcga you ll recognize this sticky button symptom immediately if you have such a mouse the problem is intermittent but it s not subtle liam breck recently gave up trying to document this problem and instead suggested that people contact apple s customer assistance center directly macweek p when i called apple on march rd and described my defective mouse i was eventually given a case number f y and told apple would replace this mouse even though it is a few months out of warranty after waiting for three weeks i called back today wondering where my new mouse was this time i was told that apple had decided the serial number on my mouse mb fc is not within the undisclosed range apple is willing to replace and there is nothing i can do about it nothing that is unless enough people complain about this problem to make it worth apple s while to fix or replace the entire lot of defective mice please if you have one of these mice i need your help don t assume you know what causes the problem there are lots of theories and start hacking around inside your hundred dollar mouse instead let apple do it please take five minutes to call apple right now at united states canada uk and europe australia japan and pacific if the number isn t toll free call collect describe the problem and ask for a replacement mouse even if they refuse insist that they register the details of your case including your mouse s serial number be firm network managers and user group leaders especially please query your user bases everyone ask your friends and colleagues please don t send mail to me or post yet another sticky button report call apple directly if enough victims take the trouble to report this well known problem apple will eventually be forced to respond if apple continues to find it easy to stone wall on this issue don t expect them to offer support when the next potentially more serious mac defect is uncovered bill sloan
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help wanted monitor problems nec d iivi hello all for few past days i ve been fighting to get my nec multisync d predecessor of fg to work properly with the internal video of mac iivi with a vga adapter as described in dale adams posting about quadra video it works only some minor interferences occur small enough not to prevent any action on screen to be visible clear but because the scanrates stuff of d are well enough for emulating apple rgb i first made an adapter then got one fron the local distributor of nec with both adapters i can get a picure which looks excellent most of the time or every now and then but with radical changes on screen opening palettes large windows etc there are major interferences in sync the picture either tilts sideways or scrables up totally even when it is clear there are some spiky interferences on horizontal line alignment when accessing pull downs etc with the self made adapter almost identical to the vga one only sense pins differ it is sometimes impossible to even boot up with a picture clear enough to shut down from menu with the adapter from nec everything is well most of the time but sometimes the picture tilts badly sideways or the sync is completely lost but not nearly as often as with the self made one i know with self made adapters there can always be interference but with the one provided by nec where s the source of this interference i ll give you the pinouts of the whole mess and i hope that you can at least someone please try figure out what could be the best pin assignment for nec d i am going to make a completely new cable with maximum shieldings and isolations as soon as someone figures out how the pins should be arranged especially syncs and groundings yes i have checked that the monitor is not defective it works perfectly well with all pc graphic adapters up to x pixels and also atari hz monochrome which i am using now with it here are the pinouts stuff pin mini d sub nec d pin d sub mac at least quadra red video red gnd green video red video blue video composite sync gnd sense gnd green video red gnd green gnd green gnd sense blue gnd nc nc blue video gnd sense gnd c sync v sync gnd nc v sync h sync blue gnd v sync h sync gnd nc h sync shell gnd shell gnd connection suggested by apple for vga svga sense pins changed to emulate apple with multisync my self made adapter multisync pin mini d sub mac pin d sub sense grounded to sync gnd connection measured from an adapter to make nec fg fg emulate apple adapter provided by nec representative nec mini mac shell gnd same as above same same same same same not connected well i am waiting for your solutions and thanks jartsu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	another res question i asked a question a week or so ago about getting more res on my monitor i have a magnavox magnascan and am wondering what video cards it supports also does anybody have magnavox s email id if there is one or maybe a phone number please reply by email as i don t read much news thanks steve steven d seeger dark netcom com string he s going to blow us out of the sky then why don t you hang your flabby behind out the window and blow him out of the sky string dom airwolf
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re adding int hard disk drive to iicx yes it is possible to add a second hard drive to a mac iicx internally this is definitely not a recommended procedure by apple but i have done the equivalent to my cx after upgrading it to a quadra the power supply is still the stock cx s and it was able to power two quantum lps drives a pli scsi accelerator a micron technologies bit video board daystar quickcache new technologies overdrive and meg of ram simultaneously i added a new mount for the drive by attaching angle brackets to the drive tower the internal scsi cable was changed to a longer flat ribbon cable onto which i added an extra connector about midway the final hd was internally terminated and the drive between the motherboard and final hd had its terminator resistor packs removed cooling has not been a problem and no scsi problems occur with either the pli scsi chain or motherboard scsi hooked into the two internal hard drives it works very well for me but proceed cautiously if you wish to do the same
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re iisi clock upgrades i have read one report of a brave soul who rewired the mhz clock and a higher speed clock oscillator s outputs through a double throw switch to allow different speeds there was no mention of any attempts to switch speeds on the fly but if the si uses timing loops anything like a quadra for accessing its floppy drive dynamic switching will wreak havoc a quadra must reboot after having its clock speed significantly changed or it will be unable to properly access its floppy drive
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mo sectors track on an iso ansi standard magneto optical disc how many sectors are there per track or disc revolution and how many tracks per disc thanks jim frazier compuserve com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help with simm configuration can someone please help me understand the current situation regarding simms i have a iisi which i will probably keep for another years i would like to add more memory ie go from mb to mb i know that i will need x mb ns or faster simms which simms pin or pin would the simms i get today be usable in years with a newer more powerful system any insight would be appreciated thanks rob rob sprecher rcs po cwru edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re recommendations for removable storage media wanted in article apr kth se d jwa eufrat nada kth se jon wtte writes if you have no friends buy a mb optical huh if i buy a m optical i might lose my friends why do they smell bad and stop worrying about cartridge wear bernoulli or crashes syquest on a serious note i have heard the tales about syquest failures but i am curious about jon s comments on cartridge wear for the the bernoullis can someone elaborate is there a general consensus that the m opticals are the most reliable i am mostly concerned about media failures as opposed to drive mechanism failures julian vrieslander neurobiology behavior mudd hall cornell university ithaca ny internet eacj theory tc cornell edu bitnet eacj crnlthry uucp cornell batcomputer eacj
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris video problem i m having it also when the computer is set for colors and certain operations are done particularly vertical scrolling through a window horizontal white lines appear on the monitor which generally but not always spare open windows these lines accummulate as the operation is continued if a window is moved over the involved area of the screen and then moved away the line disappear from that area of the screen this problem is not observed if the monitor is configured for colors or a inch apple monitor with colors is used i suspect a bad video ram chip but cannot be certain the problem has been apparent since day but has gotten worse i m having exactly the same problem again it s fine when i switch to colors or a smaller monitor my configuration is model centris with mb hd vram no cards monitor mag mx f with monitor adaptor for resolution of i just discovered the problem a little while ago after plugging in my new mag monitor it seems to appear either when scrolling through a window or when using alpha or word and i enter return my guess is bad vrams as well i really hope it isn t a design flaw is anyone at apple listening pushpinder singh push media mit edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re duo crashes aftersleep looks like apple bug if you have a memory card installed that s not one of apple s this may be the problem for a couple of months after the release of the duo some memory manufacturers were shipping duo memory cards w improper non self refreshing chips if you have a third party card pull it and see if the sleep problem recurs tim
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re apple monitor this must be a faq from the very first days of the rgb and as for a better monitor for your well the nec fg fgx are pretty nice
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re looking for free share wares young is s u tokyo ac jp young shio hong writes i am looking for ftp sites where there are freewares or sharewares for mac it will help a lot if there are driver source codes in those ftp sites any information is appreciated f a q reference newsgroups comp sys mac apps comp sys mac misc comp sys mac system comp sys mac wanted comp sys mac hardware comp answers news answers subject introductory macintosh frequently asked questions faq sven
comp.sys.mac.hardware	for the poor owner of iisi macintosh iisi ns clock upgraded iisi works well at mhz however does not work with nubus adaptor and k disk even though it can read write k disk at mhz interestingly upgraded iisi overcomes basically the fighting between the vedio and the system so that cpu never be reduced below no mater whether the cache is on or off this is pretty useful when you use the virtual memory of system mhz mhz mhz cpu vm graf disk math fpu speedometer
comp.sys.mac.hardware	performa bundle here s what s in it i went to staples in framingham ma today and grabbed the info sheet on the bundle for a mere you get megahertz microprocessor m of ram m hard disk m floppy disk drive built in support for colors expandable to colors expansion slot keyboard and mouse display mm dot pitch for extra sharp text and graphics x pixels microphone and speaker macintosh system software for performa computers version p at ease macintosh pc exchange and quicktime software global village teleport fax modem send fax only service and support year limited warranty year of in home service toll free help line support pre installed software wordperfect works best of clickart collection touchbase datebook bestbooks the amereican heritage dictionary correct grammar apple special edition of american online with free trial membership checkfree electronic bill payment software spectre challenger scrabble editor s note the spec sheet i have list s the microprocessor as a but i corrected that didn t want to confuse anybody tim
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra scsi problems noah apple com noah price writes in article qm hvinnseq shelley u washington edu tzs stein u washington edu tim smith wrote attention mac quadra owners many storage industry experts have concluded that mac quadras suffer from timing irregularities deviating from the standard scsi specification this results in silent corruption of data when used with some devices including ultra modern devices although i will not name the devices since it is not their fault that s fine but would you name the industy experts so i can try to track this down who knows i just quoted what was written in scsi director this doesn t sound right to me don t quadras use the c if so the mac has nothing to do with the scsi timing that s all handled by the chip yup that s why i m kinda curious most scsi problems i ve encountered are due to cabling i ve tried calling transoft corp about this and have either gotten the response huh to yep to nah you would expect that a damaging state ment like this would have some data to back it up anyone want transoft s phone number jim jagielski and he s gonna stiff me so i say jim jagubox gsfc nasa gov hey lama how about something nasa gsfc code you know for the effort greenbelt md
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help how to test simms hello i just got some simms at least one of which does not work i don t know if there is a software that can test simms thoroughly or i could just rely on the ram test performed by my computer during the start up when i installed a dead simm into an lc or an lc ii there would be a strange music and no display on the screen why i need your help thanks in advance yih tyng ytwu magnus acs ohio state edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re help need modem info for duo jmilhoan magnus acs ohio state edu jt writes hi what alternatives to the express modem do duo owners have if they want to go at least baud every place in town says they are back ordered and part of the reason i want a laptop mac is so i can use it as a remote terminal from wherever i am but i really would hate to have to wait months to get a modem in or have to settle with baud you re not going to like this but if memory serves me postings i ve read in this newsgroup and elsewhere indicate that there are no repeat no internal modems for the duo besides the express modem at any speed something having to do with the modem using the main cpu for some of its tasks and apple not releasing details on the architecture or something i m vague on the details but the gist was that there are going to be no third party internal duo modems if i m wrong somebody please correct me on this sorry to be the bearer of bad news joel joel siegel jdsiegel garnet berkeley edu jdsiegel ocf berkeley edu i myself have never been able to find out what feminism is i only know that i am called a feminist whenever i express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat rebecca west
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re questions about the centris s ram according to the seen several times postings from dale adams of apple computer both the and the require ns simms not ns only the centris requires ns simms pete i think you meant quadra but a centris probably would be a real nice machine but yeah it needs ns not ns joel joel siegel jdsiegel garnet berkeley edu jdsiegel ocf berkeley edu i myself have never been able to find out what feminism is i only know that i am called a feminist whenever i express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat rebecca west
comp.sys.mac.hardware	great deal for those of you who have ti ps laser printers if you want an envelope feeder they are now on sale direct from ti for the unbelievable price of call same for extra paper trays they have too many gray ones and want to move them out strange but true the bobmeister from planet bmug the firstclass bbs of bmug the message contained in this posting does not in any way reflect bmug s official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	se pricing what is the value of an se hdfd david from planet bmug the firstclass bbs of bmug the message contained in this posting does not in any way reflect bmug s official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	sony rasterops sx si for sale update hello fellow humans and other net creatures if you re at all interested in this merchandise please e mail me djk ccwf cc utexas edu i m compacting my system and moving to a single monitor system so i have two monitors and cards for sale nothing at all is wrong with these pieces i m just wanting to conserve desk space and get all of my info from one screen i d prefer to sell to people near austin and surrounding areas within driving distance like an hour away perhaps but i can ship to you if you don t live near here only problem is that i didn t keep the original boxes for the monitors but i m confident that my few months of full time service in the shipping room will enable me to safely package the monitors and flip it in your direction details mirror full page display monochrome w nubus card sold sony color monitor what s to say it got top ratings in last year s macuser report it s a sony trinitron arguably the best but i d rather not argue that point it s a great monitor in great shape but i m going to a bigger screen and although i d like to keep it finances don t justify it still selling for at macland where i bought it originally not including shipping will sell for plus shipping again make an offer if that sounds unreasonable rasterops si bit accelerated hardware zoom pan meg ram renamed the sx a few months after i bought it this board is for monitors providing accelerated bit hardware zoom pan ntsc mode you can plug it into something like the rasterops video expander and output ntsc and ram slots that use meg or meg simms for gworld ram or a ram disk software included for such functions meg of ram included meg simms selling for at bottom line without the ram add i m asking shipping included this time it s just a card original box and packaging i d actually prefer to sell the sony monitor and this card together so if you want both drop me e mail and make a bundled offer for these items cheers dan keldsen djk ccwf cc utexas edu dan keldsen are you now or have you ever been djk ccwf cc utexas edu a a berklee college student univ of texas austin b a member fan of billy death music composition mm c a max programmer m m consultant ask d a think c midi programmer
comp.sys.mac.hardware	trade mac se system for color mac ok i want to get a color mac i don t care if it is an lc or a mac ii or what but i want to go to a color machine i d prefer to trade my present mac se system plus some cash or other equipment for the color system as right now i m not full of the to buy a color system outright here s what my mac se system has mac se with internal k drive meg external external k drive imagewriter ii with color ribbon stuff that can go with it i ve got modems and i d be willing to give of the s and the with the system multitech multimodem ii data fax u s robotics sportster data microcom qx k normally will connect at only as highest but it will do faster if connected to another microcom the usr and the multitech are both brand new if interested send me e mail at dleonard wixer bga com primary judy s stamps misc topical stamps from dogs dleonard wixer bga com to cats to baseball and many many other subjects secondary for stamp information call tony leonard at dleonard wixer cactus org this is a business only number
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re why hp printers rated so low egaillou etu gel ulaval ca eric gailloux writes i m about to purchase a laser printer for my mac and i read the macuser buying guide special issue all hp printers except iiisi are rated very low compared to other noname bargain priced printers why is that so on the pc hp printers are the standard amongst printer manufacturers ps my personnal favorite budgetwise would be the iiip the iiip has just been superseded by the m which is the one i am using at work the quality of the print is execellent beating dpi printers hands down in australia the price of the m is about comparable with that of the iii series so hp are trying to get people to buy the new one anthony pun anthonyp extro ucc su oz au
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re accelerator for se in article apr ifi uio no oec ifi uio no ystein christiansen says has anyone out there in netland any experience with accelerators for se i am specially interested in speed up rate or compared to e g se need for new simms speed in ns maximum ram after upgrade compatibility i am mainly using framemaker can i use an additional big b w screen to can i install the accellerator myself no soldering price where to buy i have no experience with this particular hardware but just about every month in macworld there is an add for an combined se accelerator video board this item sells for about and comes with a mhz pair eight simm slots and a grayscale monitor this accelerator plugs into the se s lone expansion port and thus no soldering you will however need a long torx wrench to get the case open but that s not really a big deal does that sound like what you were looking for jon jon carr io maine maine edu umaine ncaa champions how about those black bears m a i n e go blue
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pin map for pin din cable facing female plug end anyone recognize this it s my little layout of a eight pin female plug connector used for many mac peripherals problem problem problem printer cheap cables using this configuration switch a couple of pins between one end and the other i want to use cheap cables for an a b box anyone know which pins get reversed so i can do some creative editing on the internals of my box any help would be greatly appreciated jon jon carr io maine maine edu umaine ncaa champions how about those black bears m a i n e go blue
comp.sys.mac.hardware	si clock reports i am continuing to collect user results to produce a more comprehensive report on iisi clock oscillator upgrades i you have attempted the modification please drop me a note with details of your experience the more reports obtained the more accurate the numbers i will generate if possible please include the following top speed achieved system configuration at top mhz setting a speed rating of the cpu the last two digits printed on cpu b presence of additional heat sinks c nubus fpu cards used d floppy drive functionality on both and m disks damage incurred during modification damage due to higher speed use average length of time the cpu is on i e hours a day unusual other modifications to the usual procedure guy kuo guykuo u washington edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re adb mouse ii ergo when in jas apr tigger isi edu jas isi edu jeff sullivan writes when is apple supposed to start bundlign the new ergonomic adb mouse ii with all cpus sold as far as i know they did my new mac came with one yesterday and i got my ergonomic keyboard on order for three months the other day too cheers h jon w tte h nada kth se mac hacker deluxe on a clear disc you can seek forever
comp.sys.mac.hardware	duo parking hd heads when iddle the duo powerbooks seem to park the heads after a few seconds of inactivity is that builtin into the drive logic or is it being programmed via software any way to tune the iddle timeout that makes the heads park themselves i think the heads are being parked since after a few seconds of inactivity you can hear the clunk of heads parking denis
comp.sys.mac.hardware	snooper any opinions has anyone use snooper or macekg or any other similar diagnostic software any comparisons reviews on these products would be very much appreciated thanks in advance for your help cheers sir office acme gen nz be thankfull that we dont get all the government we pay for
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re help scsi woes on mac iifx according to the official documentation failure to use the iifx terminator can not only affect scsi bus performance but can also damage the bus whether this is your problem or not i don t know i have had sporadic scsi problems with my iifx since i bought it i cannot connect more than three devices fourth one causes major problems first thing to do is to try to reformat your drive on someone elses system if you continue to get errors it is probably the drive if it formats fine then i would try to format it on your system with no externals if this fails then the scsi controller on your iifx needs repair replacement hope this helps david c salmon salmon unomaha edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	what s the difference between a mac portable and powerbook i ve been looking into getting a portable mac to do some work and i ve had my eye on the pb lately i ve been seeing people with the old portables and they re selling for less that the pb s what i want to know is what are the differences between them all i know is that the portable is heavier but the pb doesn t have an internal drive here s what i need to know does the portable support appletalk network connections what s the cpu inside a portable does the portable support system what s the maximum memory capacity of the portable can you still get ram meaning does it use special simms what kind of internal hd does it use does the portable have a better screen thanx in advance mike gaines what is your name captain jean luc picard what is your quest i seek the holy grail what is the top velocity of a bird of prey romulan or klingon i i don t know aaahhhh meg hertz njit edu graphix aol com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re pds vs nubus was re lc iii nubus capable bill higgins beam jockey higgins fnalf fnal gov wrote in article c kzls kkb dartvax dartmouth edu hades coos dartmouth edu brian v hughes writes mmiller garnet msen com marvin miller writes my friend recently purchased a lc iii and he wants to know if there is such a demon called nubus adapter for his pds slot the lc family of macs can only use pds cards they are not able to use nubus ah but why can some technically hip macslinger tell us what the difference is between pds and nubus is it impossible to make a gadget that plugs into pds and ends in a nubus card cage at least marvin s friend has not been able to locate one and neither have i what is the fundamental reason for this i think that there do exist nubus expansion cages i m sure i ve seen them advertised occassionally but i think that the main problem is that they cost much more than the difference in price between say a lc and iivx so unless you need lots of nubus slots its not worth the bother of course it may be that these extra boxes are so expensive because no one buys them because they are so expensive nubus technology isn t a special apple proprietry thing i have this sneaky feeling that it is licensed from texas instruments so there is no problem building an expansion box the difference between nubus and pds is that nubus is a clever interface with lots of neat toys built in to make sure that lots of cards can work together on the same computer pds processor direct slot is just that here are all the connections to the processor you can do anything with this and it is as quick as it can be but there s no cooperation you may be able to get double pds slot adaptors but you try plugging video cards in and just watch them conflict of course the extra electronics in a nubus slot makes it appreciably more expensive so guess why apple doesn t put it in it s cheaper machines so yah pays yer money and yah takes yah choice bill wis liverpool ac uk
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re put ex syquest in centris i ve just installed a tape backup in my c lot of the issues are the same so to answer your questions in article apr cstp umkc edu kmoffatt cstp umkc edu writes my pli m syquest drive has a wire from the drive to an id switch on the outside of the case where do i connect this switch can the computer just tell with internal drives you probably want to hard wire the scsi id with shorting jumpers put it at a convenient number like you could cut a hole in the back of the machine to route the id switch but why go through the hassle you probably won t be needing to frequently change the id of your internal drive i noticed that the drive will lay over part of the motherboard i didn t look closely but i seem to recall it laying over the ram that s soldered onto the motherboard would that cause problems yeah when i first installed the tape drive i was a little concerned too but it s no problem the device is designed to fit just fine with the overhang it shouldn t reach back beyond the rom ram vram simms though one last question is there anywhere to order a faceplate cover the drive s front panel is smaller than the space left in the case the drive s panel is the same size as the spotsbm clone s cases should i just cut a hole in the plastic panel that is currently holding tmpty place you can special order parts to mount the device from your local apple dealer the relevant parts are blank bezel faceplate cd rom carrier i e generic device mounting bracket note apple s unfortunate choice of name for the slide in bracket to mount a device the service techs i talked to said oh sure we stock those of course they were thinking of the cd caddies to hold a cd disk when you stick it in the drive as far as i can tell apple does not sell a bezel faceplate already cut out for a standard device why not they advertise these machines as being able to accept any standard device in the bay why not provide the faceplate they do sell a cutout for their cd rom drive of course but that s of no use i m going to hack up the extra bezel i ordered to make a cutout for my tape drive which is a standard device good luck with your syquest fred
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re help need modem info for duo jdsiegel garnet berkeley edu joel siegel writes jmilhoan magnus acs ohio state edu jt writes hi what alternatives to the express modem do duo owners have if they want to go at least baud every place in town says they are back ordered and part of the reason i want a laptop mac is so i can use it as a remote terminal from wherever i am but i really would hate to have to wait months to get a modem in or have to settle with baud if apple didn t put out such a good product i d gladly take my business to to the bit ataris i think the situation with the express modem is inexusable for any business i ve had mine on order since january apple finally called me last week to tell me that i should have it by the second week of may in the meantime i ve been stuck with my duo without the connectability i needed it for i m sure there are plenty of people who can bite back at me citing all sorts of reasons why apple is right or at least justified but i m just a crabby consumer and when i order a duo with modem that s the product i expect oh well it s not like it s limited to the computer biz remember when the miata came out what about those cabbage patch dolls well i want my toy kenneth simon dept of sociology indiana university internet kssimon indiana edu bitnet kssimon iubacs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	bit system zone a week or so ago i posted about a problem with my se i have megs or true ram yet if i set my extensions to use a large amount of memory total of all extensions then my system will crash before the finder comes up what i meant was having a large amount of fonts load or sounds or huge disk caches with a control panel other than apple s memory control panel apple s cache is at k mode is on and so is bit addressing all extensions work by themselves or with the others until i increase the memory used by some of them with methods mentioned above well here s my latest followup i ran nows system profile and got this information memory info physical ram size k logical ram size k size of low memory area k virtual memory inactive addressing mode bit mode in use bit system zone absent parity ram not capable growable system heap true temporary memory support present tempory memory support real and tracked note that bit system zone is absent could this be the problem how can i turn this on any ideas can anyone help ken
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re hongkong ku from kinau mondrian csufresno edu kin hung au date apr ku gmt organization california state university fresno ku message id c ev t g a zimmer csufresno edu newsgroups ku comp sys mac hardware ku ku in hong kong you can buy a cheap pc or based computer ku however it is very experience to buy a macintosh last winter i was ku back to hong kong i saw the price of mac classic in hong kong is same ku price to buy a lc in the u s ku ku i am not recommended to buy mac in hong kong since mac is not popular ku in hk ku ku kin hung au hello mr au i have to disagree regarding your assessment of macintosh in hong kong the mac has a sizeable share of the typesetting market as in the u s a local magazine next magazine similar to newsweek here uses the mac extensively i have seen sir speedy and other franchises in hong kong equipped with mac based systems true the discount is not as steep as here because customers in hong kong cannot buy from gray market nor are mac being sold thru mass merchandisers like apple does here with the performa lin e at this point the sale of mac is handled by one exclusive distributor on the other hand you can always get a pc clone or in the earlier days illegal clones of the apple iie your perception of the mac not being too popular in hong kong is simply because most hobbyists and users find it much cheaper to go to one of those basement stores that sell pc clones with probably illegal copies of bios than to pay for a mac similarly you cannot say lotus surely is not well accepted in hong kong because the sale is so low may be it is because of all those places in kowloon where illegal copies of lotus can be bought for and for a professional looking but illegal copies of the manuals eric choi internet eric choi p f n z fidonet org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re specs patrickd wpi wpi edu lazer writes i d appreciate it greatly if someone could e mail me the following if you only know one that s fine specs for the esp how it compares to the pentium specs for the can fill a page book some highlights are bit address space w bit data width bit integer registers bit floating point registers k copyback capable caches way set associative typical clocks integer instruction clocks for a floating point multiply interesting aside the can multiply two bit floating point numbers in less time than it can multiply two bit integers specs for the with estimated cost release date etc more of the same but with multiple instruction dispatching figure about clocks per instruction typical my guess but the motorola guys are pretty bright it may be less i m interested in speeds systems it can run windows nt risc or whatever costs bus info register info all the technical info call motorola i m not typing it all in i am hoping that the can win yet another battle against the intel people i m predicting that both the x and x lines are reaching their ends new experimental processors have bit data pathways and can schedule up to out of instructions each clock cycle that sort of trick can t really be done with cisc architectures i finally saw some details on the pentium and was not greatly impressed they ve finally done some work on the fpu to get it up to speed but otherwise it s only going to be a x speedup and to get that they re using two integer units larger caches and a branch target buffer yes i know they re talking about mhz processors big whoop designing a mhz board is difficult and really expensive priced ns memory chips lately ray fischer convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth ray netcom com than lies friedrich nietzsche
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re x x how do they compare dhk ubbpc uucp dave kitabjian writes i m sure intel and motorola are competing neck and neck for crunch power but for a given clock speed how do we rank the following from st to th while you re at it where will the following fit into the list pentium powerpc fastest then pentium with the first versions of the powerpc somewhere in the vicinity and about clock speed does doubling the clock speed double the overall processor speed and fill in the s below mhz mhz no computer speed is only partly dependent of processor clock speed memory system speed play a large role as does video system speed and i o speed as processor clock rates go up the speed of the memory system becomes the greatest factor in the overall system speed if you have a mhz processor it can be reading another word from memory every ns sure you can put all ns memory in your computer but it will cost times as much as the slower ns simms and roughly the is twice as fast at a given clock speed as is the ray fischer convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth ray netcom com than lies friedrich nietzsche
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re pds vs nubus was re lc iii nubus capable in article c mqk f liverpool ac uk wis liverpool ac uk mr w i sellers writes bill higgins beam jockey higgins fnalf fnal gov wrote in article c kzls kkb dartvax dartmouth edu hades coos dartmouth edu brian v hughes writes mmiller garnet msen com marvin miller writes my friend recently purchased a lc iii and he wants to know if there is such a demon called nubus adapter for his pds slot the lc family of macs can only use pds cards they are not able to use nubus ah but why can some technically hip macslinger tell us what the difference is between pds and nubus is it impossible to make a gadget that plugs into pds and ends in a nubus card cage at least marvin s friend has not been able to locate one and neither have i what is the fundamental reason for this i think that there do exist nubus expansion cages i m sure i ve seen them advertised occassionally but i think that the main problem is that they cost much more than the difference in price between say a lc and iivx so unless you need lots of nubus slots its not worth the bother of course it may be that these extra boxes are so expensive because no one buys them because they are so expensive nubus technology isn t a special apple proprietry thing i have this sneaky feeling that it is licensed from texas instruments so there is no problem building an expansion box apple uses the ieee nubus standard for their bit backplane bus i got this from a technote that i reada couple of weeks ago other stuff deleted hope this helps bret chase internet bchase wpi wpi edu macintosh bellnet smile it won t kill you snailnet wpi box institute rd worcester ma
comp.sys.mac.hardware	accelerators for se the is a week backorder but they are shipping the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the university of north carolina at chapel hill the campus office for information technology or the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu or
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac iisi power limitations readers i own a mac iisi and am considering upgrades cards hard drive etc can you tell me what the power limitations are for the pds slot and the hard drive power feed secondly can you tell me if there is a separate limit for each or if instead there is a single limit for both combined please drop me a line if you know the answers to these questions thanks felix lin feilimau leland stanford edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	screen death mac plus i have a very old mac k and a mac plus both of which have the same problem their screens blank out sometimes after a minor physical jolt such as inserting a floppy in the internal drive sometimes all by themselves computer left to itself just goes blank i have replaced the wires connecting the logic boards and the video board because it seemed at first that jiggling the wires made the screen come back on this worked for a while but the blanking out has returned can i do anything do i need a new power supply a new crt a new computer thanks for any advice ethan bodin tufts university ebodin pearl tufts edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help e mail address of caere corporation i m looking for the e mail address of the caere corporation their address is caere corporation cooper court los gatos califonia if you know the address o have access to find it please could you send it to me my e mail address is zia uk ac ed castle thanking you in advance zia
comp.sys.mac.hardware	reseting lw iig to factory defaults i have a laserwriter iig that has disappeared completely from the network i e it s name doesn t show up in any zone you can print to it from it s serial interface tho i have seen some discussion here about changing the zone a iig is in including some ps code that lets you change the zone is there maybe some ps code you can use to have it go back to all its factory default settings i have a feeling that s what needed to heal ours jurgen botz jbotz mtholyoke edu vending machines should respond to a finger south hadley ma usa request with a list of all items currently unix is dead long live unix available for purchase rfc
comp.sys.mac.hardware	non apple mini docks available my boss is considering the purchase of a powerbook or duo he is leaning towards a because of the math coprocessor for mathematica but would get a duo if he could find a mini dock with a coprocessor have any third parties announced such a beast alan a deguzman genius is never understood in it s own time calculus mathematica disclaimer the university calvin to hobbes from can t afford my opinions the indispensible calvin and hobbes
comp.sys.mac.hardware	my iicx won t turn on anyone know what would cause my iicx to not turn on when i hit the keyboard switch the one in the back of the machine doesn t work either the only way i can turn it on is to unplug the machine for a few minutes then plug it back in and hit the power switch in the back immediately sometimes this doesn t even work for a long time i remember hearing about this problem a long time ago and that a logic board failure was mentioned as the source of the problem is this true thanks t j pilon pilon rpi edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	upgrading pb memory i have one of the original powerbook s with mb of ram and find that mb is a drag when trying to do my work so what is the best way to get the maximum ram for this unit and what s it going to cost me i m hoping i can get the latest and best info from real users by posting to this group thanks in advance bill
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re help how to test simms ytwu magnus acs ohio state edu yih tyng wu writes hello i just got some simms at least one of which does not work i don t know if there is a software that can test simms thoroughly or i could just rely on the ram test performed by my computer during the start up when i installed a dead simm into an lc or an lc ii there would be a strange music and no display on the screen why i need your help thanks in advance yih tyng ytwu magnus acs ohio state edu there is a shareware ramchecker that i think is called ramcheck it is available at most ftp sites such as umich and sumex terry
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris math coprocessor option sorry if this is a faq i don t normally read comp sys mac hardware i am purchasing a couple of centris s i configured the systems as follows eight mb ram ethernet mb vram math coprocessor option my purchasing agent told me about the math coprocessor option and sent me the apple summary documentation to prove it i ordered the coprocessor option but i m really not sure that we needed it i thought the chip had a math coprocessor built into it has apple had a math coprocessor chip architectured to keep up with the speed of the chip in the centris i am concerned that i may have set up a hardware bottleneck please send your responses to david anthony guevara cup portal com i will summarize if there is enough interest thanks david guevara internet david anthony guevara cup portal com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re can i put a floppy in an se ericr solbourne com eric robison writes i ve got a mac se i ve got a spare mb floppy drive i ve seen se s ith a floppy drive can i put my floppy drive into my se and get it to ork if so how thanks eric eric robison disclaimer i claim dis ericr solbourne com get me offa this planet sure thing you ll have to get an fdhd upgrade kit from apple which includes a hd floppy drive different chips the swim chip was mentioned in another post and a different floppy drive cable get the apple kit through your dealer jim trascapoulos jtrascap nyx du edu what size id do you wear
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re specs in article rayc myqo o netcom com ray netcom com ray fischer writes patrickd wpi wpi edu lazer writes i d appreciate it greatly if someone could e mail me the following if you only know one that s fine stuff deleted have you tried the library since you go to wpi so do i go to ak and look on the first floor a professor has posted an ieee i believe spec sheet on the which is around pages long i m sure the library has the info you request it s just a matter of finding it hope this helps bret chase internet bchase wpi wpi edu macintosh bellnet smile it won t kill you snailnet wpi box institute rd worcester ma
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re my iicx won t turn on i ve changed the battery in the thing shortly after the problem first happened and i ve noticed an inordinate number of bus errors lately t j pilon pilon rpi edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	summary zyxel strings i write i recently got a zyxel u e modem it s great but i m still having some problems figuring out what strings to use in what applications i basically need strings for z term firstclass client and telefinder client i ve been able to get firstclass and z term working by using another modem s settings in firstclass and copying them for z term however it still has problems z term for example will list error the first time i try dialing after starting the problem if i cancel and try again it works fine telefinder is even worse i can t get it to even wake up the modem so if anyone uses a zyxel for any of these programs i d greatly appreciate you sending me the setup strings you use thanks in advance yoshio cs ucla edu writes for zterm i initially did the following atz at d at w then i set my init string to atz that s it rsmith pearl tufts edu rod smith writes i can t help you with firstclass or telefinder but i ve been using zterm and a zyxel for close to two weeks now here s what i did once in zterm set hardware handshaking on and the bps rate to you ve probably already done this then i typed at d at w the first line sets the modem to ignore the dtr line necessary for hardware handshaking with most though not all mac hardware handshaking cables the second stores this setting in non volatile memory in the modem so it s the default when the modem starts in the modem preferences dialog i have the modem initialization string set to at z m which just insures that the stored setting is used useful if starting zterm after using something like the fax software or macwoof which change the settings in other ways alternatively you could leave the factory default the way it is and just set the zterm initialization string to at d m which would accomplish the same thing if the modem is always on before you start zterm and if other programs don t modify the settings or at z d m would work even if other programs modify the modem s settings i do it the way i do because i sometimes forget to turn on the modem before launching zterm and this way i m assured of having the correct dtr handling when the modem s powered up after comparing the above strings with my at commands reference guide i came up with atz l n x d s m this is entered in the initialize box on the modem preferences in zterm quick summary of each commmand z reset modem to user profile l speaker volume at fairly quiet n ring volume at fairly quiet x display connect info according to setting see manual d assume dtr computer is always on s dial speed at as fast as zyxel can handle in firstclass i used this same string with the addition of s right before the s command in the setup box this disables the auto answer function of the modem for firstclass i based my modem setting on the supra fax and just changed the above mentioned string in telefinder i based my setting on the zoom v hh setting i changed the modem initialization string to the same one i used for firstclass and everything seems to work fine sorry it took so long to get this summary out if someone wants to forward this to the info mac reports directory at sumex aim it might save other newbie zyxel users like myself the trouble of setting up their strings and also save the net some redundant messages if anyone else has something to add feel free marcus mlobbia ucsd edu marcus lobbia mlobbia sdcc ucsd edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how often are simms bad mail order hi everyone just the other day i ordered a vram chip for my new lciii from mac connection they sent it overnight very nice and i got it installed and we found that it didn t work properly when you put the computer in thousands mode the bottom of the screen using the new chip is all flickering and fuzzy so i called them up and i m going to return it for a new one my question is how often does such a thing happen with simm chips in general do you often find when ordering chips that a large portion are bad is this a rarity this is the first chip i ve ordered so i have no other experience in this area i m just curious if anyone else has had the same type of experience that s about it please email me and if people want i can post a summary thanks all hillel sims simsh rpi edu rensselaer polytechnic institute is rot rotated forward or backward anonymous
comp.sys.mac.hardware	tcp ip routing localtalk ethernet here is the story i have a network with macs on localtalk one of them has an ethernet card and is currently connected to a next don t laugh i got it for the price of a mac iisi the next is connected to the internet over slip running on a baud modem currently we can telnet from the mac w ethernet to the next and then telnet out again to the rest of the world what we want to know is if there is some sort of hardware that will route telnet sessions from the localtalk macs to the next via the ethernet mac from what we have heard air doesn t do the trick software solutions would be good too but my impression is that there aren t going to be any our immediate interest is to be able to get to the next and telnet out again the slip connection doesn t allow us to assign ip numbers to machines so everyone shares that number oh well thanks in advance benjamin s chuang itd css consultant university of michigan a benjamin chuang um cc umich edu consulting referals here bchuang css itd umich edu unix and long messages here
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how to boot from ext hd on power on i have an external hard drive i wish to use as startup disk problem is when i switch on the mac it boots on the internal hd but when i restart warm boot the mac it boots from the external how do i make it boot directly from the external please email replies if possible thanks in advance jerry
comp.sys.mac.hardware	simm re use nubus board anyone seen one hello i remember running across an ad in the back of mac user world a few years ago for a nubus board that had umpteen simm slots to be used to recycle your old simms when you upgraded memory i don t remember who made this board and i haven t seen it advertised in any of the latest mac magazines it mentioned that it included software to make the simms on the board act like a ram disk as someone who has simms he can t get rid of use but hates the waste this sounds to me like a majorly good idea does anyone out there know what board company i m talking about are they still in business or does anyone know where i can get a used one if they are no longer made any help would be greatly appreciated please e mail me to save net bandwidth thanks cap internet cptnerd digex com aol cptnerd compuserve consilio manuque otium cum dignitate credo quia absurdum est parturient montes nascetur ridiculus mus
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac iisi cache options readers i have found that the cache upgrade options for the mac iisi include the following ae quicksilver daystar fastcache iisi daystar combocache iisi logicache iisi k cache i d be interested in hearing opinions on any or all of these options the other alternative is to upgrade to a cpu accelerator such as the logicache mhz ideas comparisions felix lin feilimau leland stanford edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re iivx c upgrade question in article jas apr tigger isi edu jas isi edu jeff sullivan writes if you get teh iivx c upgrade does it include a new sticker to cover the iivx identifier with a centris indetifier i can t say for sure with the iivx c upgrade but i wondered the same thing when i ordered my lc lc iii upgrade turns out the upgrade is actually an entire cpu minus any disk drives you pull the floppy and hard drives out of the old one stick them in the new one and you ve got an lc iii the iivx c may be the same thing it might be something to look into for those people who are unhappy that apple only sells macs pre packaged with the drives of course the price is quite a bit higher without the trade in brian cherkaue ee rochester edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	color inks for stylewriter i know that jet inc makes refills for the stylewriter and deskwriter ink jet cartridges in several colors but are pre filled cartridges in color available from anyone or do i have to use up one cartridge before i have a chance to print in color also are inks in process colors cyan magenta yellow available to refill cartridges thanks in advance
comp.sys.mac.hardware	why does apple give us a confusing message hi there does anyone know why apple has an ambiguous message for c regarding fpu in all mac price lists i ve seen every c has the message fpu optional i know from what we ve discussed in this newsgroup that all c have the fpu built in except the configuration why would they be so unclear about this issue in their price list i m planning to buy the c cd pretty soon but i m now getting confused with whether it comes with fpu or not why say optional if it s built in please anybody help me understand this game regards thian
comp.sys.mac.hardware	sony s problems info please anyone out there have a sony s i have one and it s very nice however if i run it in mode the picture won t go very big i end up with about gap either side and top bottom i suspect an internal adjustment would fix this anyone tried it another problem is sub brightness areas that are meant to be black or off the main raster are not very black the real raster is quite visible when the screen is blanked this is not too severe but it is just not as good as other trini screens i have used if i turn the brightness contrast down so that the raster is not visible the real image virtually disappears the raster size is just right if i use but dpi is a bit too much oh and i am using a rasterops xli card thanks marcus bointon marcus meridian demon co uk marcus bointon tel marcus meridian demon co uk fax i used windows for a week once but i feel better now
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re fax modem for the mac in article c llpo in news cis umn edu mbuntan staff tc umn edu writes hi all thanks to you all who have responded to my request for info on various kinds of fax modem i d like to ask a few more questions what are the advantages of buying a global village teleport gold over other cheaper brands like supra zoom etc i heard that both supra and zoom use the same software why are there so many complaints about the incompatibility problems of supra what kind of incompatibility is it if i decided to buy the teleport gold is there any possibility to add a voice option in the near future has anyone heard of a possible voice option that supra will offer this coming summer a person did mention a new at t modem is it getting good reviews from various mac magazines if i want the best fastest most economically sound and possible voice option what fax modem should i buy sorry for posting so many questions but i think they re necessary i promise to repost any answers if they re not already posted by a responder thanks so much in advance regards thian since i repost this message again for the second time i hope to hear from some folks on this topic please reply regards thian
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris video problem i m having it also from push media mit edu pushpinder singh subject re centris video problem i m having it also date sat apr gmt when the computer is set for colors and certain operations are done particularly vertical scrolling through a window horizontal white lines appear on the monitor which generally but not always spare open windows these lines accummulate as the operation is continued if a window is moved over the involved area of the screen and then moved away the line disappear from that area of the screen this problem is not observed if the monitor is configured for colors or a inch apple monitor with colors is used i suspect a bad video ram chip but cannot be certain the problem has been apparent since day but has gotten worse i m having exactly the same problem again it s fine when i switch to colors or a smaller monitor my configuration is model centris with mb hd vram no cards monitor mag mx f with monitor adaptor for resolution of i just discovered the problem a little while ago after plugging in my new mag monitor it seems to appear either when scrolling through a window or when using alpha or word and i enter return my guess is bad vrams as well i really hope it isn t a design flaw is anyone at apple listening pushpinder singh push media mit edu try finding an init called basic color monitor this should clear up some probs with centris s and vga type monitors i know it exists somewhere i have a binhexed copy but i don t know where and never got around to installing it i have this problem on my sony a
comp.sys.mac.hardware	x x how do they compare i believe it goes or will go powerpc pentium in a resent article in one of the macmags i think a mhz accelerator was slightly slower than a mhz accel but this is using a system designed for the so it stands to reason that a system designed for an ie quadra would do better so overall i d figure or so along the same lines the new powerpc stuff is supposed to run the system at the level of a fast quadra but system or whatever will allow times the speed of a in the powerpc based systems and wait for the i think it laps the pentium pro life pro women michael ameres internet michael ameres f n z fidonet org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	need help installing a simms in quick could someone please send instructions for installing simms and vram to jmk po cwru edu he s just gotten his and wants to drop in some extra simms and vram that he has for it thanks and don t reply to me reply to jmk po cwru edu joe
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re upgrading pb memory in article apr ncar ucar edu bill lhotse hao ucar edu bill roberts wrote i have one of the original powerbook s with mb of ram and find that mb is a drag when trying to do my work so what is the best way to get the maximum ram for this unit and what s it going to cost me i m hoping i can get the latest and best info from real users by posting to this group well bill there are mb soldered on the logic board and mb in the ram expansion slot giving you mb the only thing you can do to upgrade to the maximum ram is to remove the mb expansion and install a mb expansion giving you a total of mb which is the max on a you can try calling techworks or any other memory vendors out of macweek macworld etc peter haase internet haase meediv lanl gov network manager los alamos national laboratory
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re computer engr vs computer science a professor of mine once said the difference between a computer engineer and a computer scientist is about meaning the engineer makes more than the cs seriously though the main difference is that most cs people write programs that people will use i e database graphics word processors etc while an engineer writes for machines or control systems i e the computer in your car a flight control system computer controled devices etc in other words cs writes software while cse writes firmware these are generalizations but for the most part that is what the difference is p s the is not just a joke scott for the most part this is a bunch of bunk i ve got a computer engineering degree yet i ve spent the last years writing software that people actually use moreover the salary distinctions are incorrect i received job offers upon graduation the two jobs that actually used my hardware experience were year lower my advice is to decide which classes and projects most interest you and pick the major that allows you to take them emt
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris video problem i m having it also i also suffer from these video artefacts my configuration is a centris mb vram with a nec fg it only happens at x in bit colour with virtual memory off during scrolling this occurs when the vram simms are installed as well as removed it seems that the does not like x does anyone not have these problems in the above mentioned conditions gersham meharg sfu canada gersham meharg meharg sfu ca sfu vancouver canada
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re high resolution adc for mac ii in article b clark elvex acns nwu edu b clark nwu edu brian clark wrote i don t know about the instrutech boards though i plan to check them out but you need to be very careful checking the monotonicity and s n ratio of many of the bit boards out there the ni boards are very clearly specified in terms of monotonicity s n ratio accuracy etc and the nb a and nb a have all the dyynamic range and freedom from distortion that you d expect from a good true bit converter this is not true for the spectral innovations boards for example to boorishly reply to myself i found i did have the instrutech information already the specs to use the term loosely are as follows a d bit converter with bit accuracy to khz bit accuracy to khz no specs for s n monotonicity linearity there are multiplexed inputs sharing the single a d so that all inputs are not samples at the same time and in the above conversion specs the all channel sample rate must be used thus for two channels you only have unknown quality bits at khz per channel this is poorer quality than the national instruments at the same sample rate d a bit converter no specs for s n monotonicity linearity each of the output channels has its own converter the price for the external converter box the itc the nubus interface board the mac plus c driver software and igor xop s is rather steep
comp.sys.mac.hardware	wrong ram in duo a few posts back somebody mentioned that the duo might crash if it has the wrong kind non self refreshing of ram in it my duo crashes sometimes after sleep and i am wondering if there is any software which will tell me whether or not i have the right kind of ram installed i had thought that the problem was the battery connection thanks in advance archon fung
comp.sys.mac.hardware	can you share one monitor w cpus i have a centris want to get an ibm machine as well to save space on my desk i would like to use one monitor for both with a switch box does anyone know of a way to do this
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris video problem i m having it also from push media mit edu pushpinder singh subject re centris video problem i m having it also date sat apr gmt when the computer is set for colors and certain operations are done particularly vertical scrolling through a window horizontal white lines appear on the monitor which generally but not always spare open windows these lines accummulate as the operation is continued if a window is moved over the involved area of the screen and then moved away the line disappear from that area of the screen this problem is not observed if the monitor is configured for colors or a inch apple monitor with colors is used i suspect a bad video ram chip but cannot be certain the problem has been apparent since day but has gotten worse etc has anyone not had these problems in the given configurations that would help eliminate design flaw as the explanation
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re x x how do they compare in article bd c a zeus ieee org michael ameres f n z fidonet org michael ameres writes i believe it goes or will go powerpc pentium i think this kind of comparison is pretty useless in general the processor is only good when a good computer is designed around it adn the computer is used in its designed purpose comparing processor speed is pretty dumb because all you have to do is just increase the clock speed to increase speed among other things i mean how can you say a is faster than a without giving is operational conditions can you say the same when you are running a program that uses a lot of transidental functions knowing that does not have transidental functions building in to its fpu and does can you say that is still faster anyway i hope people do not decided upon wether a computers is good or not solely on its processor or how fast a processor is based on its name because one can alway do a certain things to a processor to speed it up but if we restrict our arguements to for example pure processor architectural issues or how one processor will work well and another will not based on its design then we can get somewhere with our discussions chung yang in a resent article in one of the macmags i think a mhz accelerator was slightly slower than a mhz accel but this is using a system designed for the so it stands to reason that a system designed for an ie quadra would do better so overall i d figure or so along the same lines the new powerpc stuff is supposed to run the system at the level of a fast quadra but system or whatever will allow times the speed of a in the powerpc based systems and wait for the i think it laps the pentium pro life pro women michael ameres internet michael ameres f n z fidonet org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re x x how do they compare dhk ubbpc uucp dave kitabjian writes i m sure intel and motorola are competing neck and neck for crunch power but for a given clock speed how do we rank the following from st to th not a good idea to compare processor power doesn t make sense for real world applications at least not for totally different lines of processors while you re at it where will the following fit into the list pentium powerpc and about clock speed does doubling the clock speed double the overall processor speed and fill in the s below mhz mhz at least for x systems doubling the clock speed increases performance by about thanks very much i d appreciate hearing any further explanations from any experienced folks out there too p s folks have been having trouble replying to me lately with the reply command try typing my address by hand and it should work thanks dave kitabjian kit ahb jyin vital statistics stuff deleted ravikumar venkateswar rvenkate uiuc edu a pun is a no blessed form of whit
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re x x how do they compare michael ameres f n z fidonet org michael ameres writes i believe it goes or will go powerpc pentium not quite mhz pentium specint specfp mhz mc specint specfp note that specint is more important for most real world applications as far as the dx goes specint specfp in a resent article in one of the macmags i think a mhz accelerator was slightly slower than a mhz accel but this is using a system designed for the so it stands to reason that a system designed for an ie quadra would do better so overall i d figure or so along the same lines the new powerpc stuff is supposed to run the system at the level of a fast quadra but system or whatever will allow times the speed of a in the powerpc based systems and wait for the i think it laps the pentium intel chips have traditionally been faster than their motorola equivalents although the significance of chip speed in real world application performance is something that is highly debatable pro life pro women michael ameres internet michael ameres f n z fidonet org ravikumar venkateswar rvenkate uiuc edu a pun is a no blessed form of whit
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re x x how do they compare ray netcom com ray fischer writes dhk ubbpc uucp dave kitabjian writes i m sure intel and motorola are competing neck and neck for crunch power but for a given clock speed how do we rank the following from st to th how about some numbers here some kind of benchmark if you want let me start it dx specint specfp while you re at it where will the following fit into the list pentium powerpc fastest then pentium with the first versions of the powerpc somewhere in the vicinity numbers pentium mhz specint specfp powerpc mhz specint specfp note this is the alpha mhz specint specfp just for comparison and about clock speed does doubling the clock speed double the overall processor speed and fill in the s below mhz mhz no computer speed is only partly dependent of processor clock speed memory system speed play a large role as does video system speed and i o speed as processor clock rates go up the speed of the memory system becomes the greatest factor in the overall system speed if you have a mhz processor it can be reading another word from memory every ns sure you can put all ns memory in your computer but it will cost times as much as the slower ns simms not in a clock doubled system there isn t a doubling in performance but it is quite significant maybe about a increase in performance besides for wait state performance you d need a cache anyway i mean who uses a processor that runs at the speed of ns simms note that this memory speed corresponds to a clock speed of mhz and roughly the is twice as fast at a given clock speed as is the numbers ray fischer convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth ray netcom com than lies friedrich nietzsche ravikumar venkateswar rvenkate uiuc edu a pun is a no blessed form of whit
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re computer engr vs computer science in article tecot xenon stanford edu tecot xenon stanford edu edward m tecot writes a professor of mine once said the difference between a computer engineer and a computer scientist is about meaning the engineer makes more than p s the is not just a joke scott for the most part this is a bunch of bunk i ve got a computer engineering degree yet i ve spent the last years writing software that people actually use moreover the salary distinctions are incorrect i received job offers upon graduation the two jobs that actually used my hardware experience were year lower my advice is to decide which classes and projects most interest you and pick the major that allows you to take them emt well here is my worth advice from a grad student i agree with the gentlemen who wrote the comment before me the important thing is pick what ever interest you the most and learn as much as possible about it in my five years of education in this field though brief compare to alot of people i had to think about this kind of question a lot did i make the right decision in going into electrical engineering as opposed to computer engineering or cs the more i go thru school the more i believe that this kind of question is irrelevant i have come to believe that choosing cs because one does not like hardware or choosing hardware because one does not like to program is really doing an injustice of building and computer and making it useful for something everything is interwoven and inseparable cs ce and ee are all a part of a really great discipline and do depend on each other my advice is don t limit yourself but make a decision based on which major will give you the best opportunities to learn that of course depends on the curriculum at your persective school i would choose a major that allows me to explore as much as possible beside i don t know why the school would make a student choose a major before her his sophamore year hey you may be so interested in this field that you decided to learn all about the making of computers in which case you suffer a little more and go to grad school about the money don t look at the averages if you are good you are going to earn more money than anyone else if you are a superstar programmer you will earn millions like wise if you are a hotshot computer designers chung yang
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra memory install faq this is turning into a faq here is how to violate your quadra warranty and install your own memory insert usual disclaimer here remove the top lid of the machine you will see the floppy disk and hard drive mounted in a plastic tower follow the usual anti static precautions and of course make sure the machine is off when you do this unplug the wall and monitor power supply cords from the back of the mac remove the power supply by pulling the plastic interlocking tab on the tower forward and simultaneously pulling the power supply straight up the tab is a piece of plastic from the left posterior aspect of the tower which extends downward to hook on to the power supply you may also feel a horseshoe shaped piece at the right portion of the power supply leave that alone the plastic tab from the tower is all you need release look at the rear of the tower assembly you will see the flat ribbon scsi connector to the hard drive a power cable and a flat ribbon cable leading to the floppy drive disconnect all these from the motherboard the hard drive power cable connector has a tab which must be squeezed to release it unplug the drive activity led from its clear plastic mount look down the posterior cylindrical section of the plastic tower a phillips head screw is at the base remove it taking care not to drop it into the case a bit of gummy glue on your screwdriver is helpful here remove the tower assembly by pulling medially the plastic tab on the right side of the tower this tab prevents the tower from sliding posteriorly slide the entire tower assembly cm posteriorly then lift the tower assembly straight up and out of the case congratulations you have now gained access to your machine s simm slots the six big slots are for vram one usually must install all six to gain useful video modes all simms ram or vram installed with their chips facing the front of the motherboard the four smaller sockets in front are for ram simms install simms in sets of four into these sockets be sure you seat the simms squarely and firmly into a fully upright position reinstall the tower assembly by first placing the right wall of the tower against the right wall of the case with the tower assembly about cm posterior of its intended position lower the tower assembly into place while maintaining contact with the right wall of the case once fully down slide the tower assembly anteriorly until it clicks into place reconnect the motherboard ends of the cables dont t forget the floppy drive cable replace the phillips head screw drop the power supply straight down into place until it clicks in plug the hard drive activity light back into its clear plastic mount guy kuo guykuo u washington edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re help duo problems bcherkas netcom com brian cherkas writes chess cats ucsc edu brian vantuyl chess writes i just got a duo and i m having some difficulties if the machine is plugged in to the wall adapter put to sleep unplugged from the wall and woken up it crashes of the time there s nothing but the original system software on the machine the battery has plenty of life i think this must be a power manager problem but i don t know what to do about it also the speaker occasionally makes a high pitched hiss the noise is irregular but seems to favor sleep and restart commands i ve had my duo for a few weeks now and suffer from both of the above problems i reinstalled my system software twice in an effort to combat the problems thinking they were system software problems initially reinstalling the system seemed to help but not anymore occasionally when i try to wake up the duo i get a solid screen of horizontal lines on the screen it freezes i also get the high pitched hiss occasionally but only at startup i ve called the apple hotline sos appl three times already and finally they agreed something is astray after my duo s screen would go dim and the hard drive spun down by itselft and put itself to sleep this problem only occured twice apple sent me a box to ship my duo to be looked at in new york but the problem now is intermittent and i can t afford to be without my duo at this time anyone out there with these same problems brian cherkas bcherkas netcom com i aol brianc compuserve netcom online communication services san jose ca yes quite a number of people it seems from discussions i ve had me included i bought my machine a couple of weeks ago as well and started to experience these problems apple australia via my dealer said that this problem has a number of potential causes faulty applications faulty third party hardware modems memory etc system software pram corruption and power manager corruption and the duo hardware itself none of the above are relevant in my case except the last two maybe no applications were running the system software was re installed i have no additional hardware i have found that clearing pram appears to help for a while at least hold down command option p and r on startup unfortunately the problem returns suggesting that pram is being corrupted by something system software bug i don t have any non issue inits in my system apparently the power manager can be reset by holding the reset and interrupt buttons while powering up apple s advice but since the duo does not have an interrupt button i m not sure what they mean in this case this may also help if someone can decipher apple s advice for me beyond this apple suggest that you should follow the technical procedures to check the hardware of this duo since so many others appear to be having the same problem it would seem to me that there has been a system software bug introduced somewhere along the line and quite recently too since it only seems to be recent duo purchasers who have this problem any more comments from others in the same boat are welcome particularly apple duo engineers cheers brucet bruce tulloch sydney australia brucet extro ucc su oz au complex problems have straight forward easy to understand wrong answers
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pixel disappear on powerbook screen some pixels on my pb display disappear intermittently they are not in a particular place but random if anybody has suggestions i would appreciate e mailings thanks aris psssun pss msu edu beware of the s o o nnnnn u nnnnn
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re x x how do they compare in c npy li news cso uiuc edu rvenkate ux cso uiuc edu ravikuma venkateswar writes not quite mhz pentium specint specfp mhz mc specint specfp but the interesting comparision is how fast clock cycle chips you can get an alpha is way slow at mhz but blazes at mhz as far as the dx goes specint specfp but the is or will soon be available in mhz version making it comparable to a dx intel chips have traditionally been faster than their motorola equivalents although the significance of chip speed in real world application performance is something that is highly debatable i think you have that one turned around they have faster clock cycles but less power behind each cycle not to mention that the intel instruction stream is byte oriented longest intel instruction is bytes what an odd number which makes it hard to do any intelligent memory subsystem cheers h jon w tte h nada kth se mac hacker deluxe this article printed on recycled electrons
comp.sys.mac.hardware	attn c and duo owners be very careful when you plug in a external monitor and a external speaker make sure that all the power cords are in the same strip if you don t you take a chance of having a very bad audio buzz this is caused be a ground loop and the only way of getting rid of this loud buzz is to make sure that you have a common ground make sure that all the power cords are going in to the same strip or off the same outlet this will assure you of a common ground tim keanini sound designer timk broder com broderbund software blast crl com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	increasing the number of serial ports does anyone know if there are any devices available for the mac which will increase the number of serial ports available for use simultaneously i would like to connect up to serial devices to my mac for an application i am working on i must be able to access each one of the independently if such a device exists are there are any limits to the number of serial devices i can use any information is appreciated steven langlois slang bnr ca
comp.sys.mac.hardware	sound recording for mac portable does anyone know what hardware is required and where i could find it for sound recording on the mac portable thanks david hughes aa freenet carleton ca secretary national capital freenet ve tkp
comp.sys.mac.hardware	asante en sc hangs scsi devices i just hooked up my mac iisi to a relatively old year asante en sc adapter the base t connection works like a charm i installed the newest drivers from asante s ftp server the problem begins when i attach one more device to the scsi chain specifically a mb drive i power up the drive then the mac the mac tests memory etc just before the happy mac face normally shows up the power light on the en sc goes out and the boot process stops so i can use the network or the external drive but not both at once this makes the asante box pretty much unusable it doesn t look like a purely electrical scsi problem because if i turn on the drive just a second or so too late so that it doesn t get noticed during the initial scsi polling the mac boots normally and the adapter works even though the hard disk is powered on and connected the mac has never once failed to boot from its internal drive up to now and i ve had it for over a year here is what i tried changing the scsi id s of the en sc and the disk several permutations changing the order of devices i e the en sc at the head or tail of the chain overterminating with an external terminator both devices have internal ones underterminating i e removing internal resistors from the hard disk trying another en sc box trying another identical drive trying several different scsi cables has anybody seen this more importantly does anyone have a solution thanks a lot e eric behr illinois state university mathematics department behr math ilstu edu or behr ilstu bitnet please avoid
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re increasing the number of serial ports slang bnr ca steven langlois writes does anyone know if there are any devices available for the mac which will increase the number of serial ports available for use simultaneously i would like to connect up to serial devices to my mac for an application i am working on i must be able to access each one of the independently applied engineering makes a nubus card called the quadralink which is a board that contains serial ports which i believe can be used simultaneously i m not a user of one of these but i have installed a couple for people at work i m a technician hope this helps aaron swiers control data corporation arden hills mn swiers chaos aqeng cdc com electrical engineering student u of nd swiers plains nodak edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re educational pricing gray market eu apple does not authorise sales through mail order as a result mail eu order companies have to obtain their machines by the grey market eu eu this market is supplied with machines from authorised resellers who eu have more machines than they can sell they come into this state of eu affairs by overordering either accidentally or deliberatly to get a eu better wholsale price from apple in either case they often obscure eu the serial nunber to protect their identity as a result the warranty eu is void i have ordered several macs from different mail order companies with absolutely zero problem you have to dig around to find the true gray market dealers that sell macs with authentic serial numbers untouched there are value added dealers nothing to do with vat no flame please that are very legitimate cda unfortunately is one of those that replace the serial number with their own to prevent apple from tracing which authorized dealer sold that machine to cda eric choi internet eric choi p f n z fidonet org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re how often are simms bad mail order hi i got a glimpse from the other side talking to the technician at the place i recently bought my mac from the guy told me that they stopped shipping simms to their customers and only install them themselves those babies get zapped too easily by static electricity or so they claim hsk sie singen das alte entsagungslied das eiapopeia vom himmel womit man beruhigt wenn es greint das volk den grossen luemmel ein neues lied ein besseres lied oh freunde will ich euch dichten wir wollen hier auf erden schon das himmelreich errichten h heine
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re x x how do they compare in article c nq c llp news cso uiuc edu rvenkate ux cso uiuc edu ravikuma venkateswar writes stuff deleted besides for wait state performance you d need a cache anyway i mean who uses a processor that runs at the speed of ns simms note that this memory speed corresponds to a clock speed of mhz more stuff deleted how do you calculate that figure i d assume even in personal computers the board designers would use bank switching to optimistically quadruple the access speed or am i missing something here hsk sie singen das alte entsagungslied das eiapopeia vom himmel womit man beruhigt wenn es greint das volk den grossen luemmel ein neues lied ein besseres lied oh freunde will ich euch dichten wir wollen hier auf erden schon das himmelreich errichten h heine
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re macs suck buy a pc tests suck post a real message
comp.sys.mac.hardware	has anyone had problems with ibm drives in their machines hi the subject line says it all my system acts weird at times all of a sudden the system will be corrupt boot blocks will get chewed etc this was a really big problem for a while i couldn t even format my drive properly i installed hdt s driver and things got better now all i have to do is reinstall the system could an incompatibility exist between it and a quantum external drive i m looking for a pure hardware solution it s not a virus bad software etc could i have a bad scsi cable or is the ibm wds just a screwey drive thanks chuck chuck williams cs intern pacific northwest laboratories da cleveland freenet edu cg williams ccmail pnl gov
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re x x how do they compare skok itwds energietechnik uni stuttgart de holger skok writes in article c nq c llp news cso uiuc edu rvenkate ux cso uiuc edu ravikuma venkateswar writes stuff deleted besides for wait state performance you d need a cache anyway i mean who uses a processor that runs at the speed of ns simms note that this memory speed corresponds to a clock speed of mhz more stuff deleted how do you calculate that figure i d assume even in personal computers the board designers would use bank switching to optimistically quadruple the access speed or am i missing something here the previous article referred to the fact that you could only use ns simms in a mhz machine but that you could use ns simms in slower machines i just pointed out that if you could only use ns simms in a mhz machine you can t use ns simms in anything faster than a mhz machine bank switching and caches were not considered in either example although both would help memory access hsk ravikumar venkateswar rvenkate uiuc edu a pun is a no blessed form of whit
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re why does apple give us a confusing message in article c ngii bgx news cis umn edu bunt student tc umn edu monthian buntan writes hi there does anyone know why apple has an ambiguous message for c regarding fpu in all mac price lists i ve seen every c has the message fpu optional i know from what we ve discussed in this newsgroup that all c have the fpu built in except the configuration why would they be so unclear about this issue in their price list i m planning to buy the c cd pretty soon but i m now getting confused with whether it comes with fpu or not why say optional if it s built in please anybody help me understand this game regards thian if you get the centris with cd configuration you are getting a mac with a rc processor that has built in math coprocessor support my understanding is that the optional fpu refers to your option of purchasing the centris without fpu or one of the other configurations with fpu apple does not offer an upgrade from the non fpu system to become an fpu system and it is unclear whether the processor on the non fpu system a lc can be replaced with a rc supplied by another vendor apple did send a memo out at one point sating that the centris which only comes with a non fpu lc processor cannot be upgraded to support an fpu the pin configurations of the two chips apparently do not match so you cannot swap one for another again according to apple s memo hope that helps kevin lohman university book store university of washington buyer for the uw apple computers for education program
comp.sys.mac.hardware	diy phonenet midi adapt macrecorder i remember seeing complete instructions for making phonenet adapters midi adapters and a macrecorder lookalike after a short search through mac archive and info mac i failed to see any of the above any pointers petri aukia hut fi supreme court ruling bolo is an illegal drug peba hut computer programmer steals minds of youths through new tank game pa telephone standards rethought because of new addictive computer game
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re ghost on apple color user insane in article bettsc nq uu netcom com betts netcom com jonathan betts writes dear netters my sister has an apple color display hooked up to an lc problem there is an annoying horizontal ghost like stripe that precesses vertically about once per second it is about cm high she is in grave danger of going insane because of it any ideas of what it might be and how i might cure it for her joe betts betts netcom com ps if i pick up the display i thought it might be rfi from the lc it seems to get worse this can be caused by two one of two things the first and easiest to fix is interference from something around the monitor such as another monitor or other electrical device try moving the system to another location to fix that problem second because of the scan rate of the monitor it tends to synchronize with room lights and can cause the interference you are seeing try turning off all lights in the room s around the system and see if that helps if not try moving the system somewhere else a third solution would be to get a apple color display it should not have the same problem the color is more suceptible to you can try calling apple s new support number in the u s at sos apple this number is for anyone who has questions regarding macintosh setup and compatibility and just went into effect for this extended support on monday april good luck kevin lohman buyer university book store university of washington seattle apple computers for education program
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re increasing the number of serial ports in apr bmers bnr ca slang bnr ca steven langlois writes if such a device exists are there are any limits to the number of serial devices i can use how many nubus slots do you have applied engineering has something called the quadralink which is a card with serial ports that you get at through the comms toolbox in addition to the built in ones it also comes with software for fooling applications to open an ae port when they think they open a built in port they also have a more expensive card with dma better performance and i think they or someone else have a card that handles ports simultaneously as i said with nubus you re green learn how to use the comms resource manager to get at the various installed cards cheers h jon w tte h nada kth se mac hacker deluxe you never hide the menu bar you might go about and change the color of it to the color of the background but you never hide the menu bar tog
comp.sys.mac.hardware	any nanao i compatible mac video cards does anyone know if a nanao i is compatible with any popular mac video cards i have an oppurtunity to get a brand new one cheap and i am very tempted but it will be a waste of time if i can t drive it using a standard video card while i m on the subject what s everybody s reccomendations for a color monitor i ve heard good things about the nec fg and of course there is always the reliable old macintosh display but what are your experiences david j harr cyberpunk software my definition of happiness is being famous for your financial ability to indulge in every form of excess calvin
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re reseting lw iig to factory defaults in article qpir slab mtholyoke edu jurgen botz jbotz mtholyoke edu writes i have a laserwriter iig that has disappeared completely from the network i e it s name doesn t show up in any zone you can print to it from it s serial interface tho i have seen some discussion here about changing the zone a iig is in including some ps code that lets you change the zone is there maybe some ps code you can use to have it go back to all its factory default settings i have a feeling that s what needed to heal ours the following postscript works for laserwriter iig s with version roms serverdict begin exitserver factorydefaults true setsystemparams systemdict begin realtime add dup realtime le pop exit if loop quit rob
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re why does apple give us a confusing message in c ngii bgx news cis umn edu bunt student tc umn edu monthian buntan writes does anyone know why apple has an ambiguous message for c regarding fpu in all mac price lists i ve seen every c as the message fpu optional i know from what we ve discussed in this newsgroup that all c have the fpu built in except the configuration why would they be so unclear about this issue in their price list perhaps the reason is simple maybe the marketing people who put together the brochures and price lists weren t clear on the fpu issue afterall apple s literature is not always correct a funny one i noticed recently is that some of the brochures on the macs with cd capability refer to the auto inkjet feature this should have read auto inject feature as it does on some other correct brochures i ve seen from apple since it was correct on some older brochures i can only guess that someone edited the copy saw inject and thought it was a typo and changed it to the more familiar word inkjet hmmm what would that be a printer built into the cd player a way of writing information to a cd
comp.sys.mac.hardware	video display my mac monitor displays about vertical lines when i use it it means that either my display memory goes wrong or monitor is bad or video card is bad i checked my monitor it works fine with other mac i checked my video card it s also fine i replaced all the rams it still didn t give me right answer hence i assume something wrong with some part of my motherboard i don t know hardware architecture of the macintosh can anyone tell me what s the problem it s a mac iicx many thanks in advance kuan netcom netcom com my name kuan yihpyng born taichung taiwan r o c work phone company failure analysis associates inc commonwealth drive p o box menlo park ca my philosophy where there is a will there is a way
comp.sys.mac.hardware	stereo sound problem on mac games hi i think i have a problem with the stereo sound output on my quadra but i am not totally sure because my roomate has the same problem on his powerbook any info or experience anyopne has would be greatly appreciated when i hook my quadra up to my home stereo system the following types of sounds mono as far as i can tell all play fine through both speakers system beeps already provided ones such as indigo and ones i record armor alley spectre spaceward ho but the following games only play out of the left channel lemmings out of this world awesome game btw glider oids but still stereo system beeps do play in stereo through both speakers the one i m specifically referrring to is apocolyptic beginning which my roommate downloaded from some ftp site sumex all of the symptoms are the same on my rommates he can t run ootw because he doesn t have color we re both running system does anyone with lemmings or the other three games i mentioned above get sound out of both speakers on a mac ii class quadra lc powerbook or greater centris se etc stereo machine i used to have a mac ii and i sort of rememeber lemmings playing in stereo on that machine not just on the left channel i could be mistaken though if there were a problem with the quad s and pb s i am wondering why the system beeps still play in stereo if there isn t a problem with our machines i wonder why the games above are apparantly written to support only one channel of stereo when they could just use mono sounds so the mono sound would at least come out of both speakers like spectre etc do quadra s and powerbook s have the same roms to my knowledge so maybe this is a rom problem if so though why wouldn t system patch over this problem thanks for any help you can provide doug book dpb sdchemw ucsd edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re screen death mac plus i have a very old mac k and a mac plus both of which have the same problem their screens blank out sometimes after a minor physical jolt such as inserting a floppy in the internal drive sometimes all by themselves computer left to itself just goes blank i have replaced the wires connecting the logic boards and the video board because it seemed at first that jiggling the wires made the screen come back on this worked for a while but the blanking out has returned can i do anything do i need a new power supply a new crt a new computer i had the same problem with my a long time ago resoldering the joints on the motherboard all of them fixed it turns out that continuous heating and cooling caused annular ring shaped cracks to develop in the solder effectively cutting the video circuitry off if you re not a solder jockey you might want to have someone else do it i took mine to an electrical engineer buddy but it was a minute job tops kelley thomas kelley boylan powerpc ibm austin kelleyb austin ibm com i buy and pay for my own opinions
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re wrong ram in duo here is the macweek article describing the duo ram situation w o permission i hope that is ok jose bad ram brings some duos down random access memory boards for apple macintosh powerbook duos macweek v n feb copyright coastal associates publishing l p by raines cohen austin texas some third party memory expansion cards for powerbook duos depart from apple specs in ways that could cause crashes data loss and other problems technology works inc a ram and network vendor based here last week issued a warning about three problems it said it had found in duo ram products from some competing vendors which it declined to identify other vendors and an apple spokeswoman confirmed that the problems exist self refresh the duos require a kind of dynamic ram called selfrefreshing which can recharge itself while the system sleeps but technology works said some vendors have sold duo cards with nonselfrefreshing dram which can cause the system to lose data or fail to wake from sleep most leading memory manufacturers include the letter v in the part number stamped on their self refreshing chips nonself refreshing chips instead have an l according to techworks the chip label however may not tell the whole story newer technology of wichita kan said it uses nonself refreshing chips but adds its own circuitry to keep them refreshed while the duo sleeps speed some ram card vendors have put nanosecond dram on duo cards rather than the nanosecond type the requires technology works said however some chips labeled as or nanosecond are certified by the manufacturer to run at a higher speed kingston technology corp of fountain valley calif said it offers duo ram cards with nanosecond chips but only for the duo which is compatible with the slower chips space technology works charged and apple officials confirmed that some third party cards are too large to fit properly forcing the corner of the duo keyboard up and preventing the system from starting up normally when in a duo dock lifetime memory products inc of huntington beach calif said it originally shipped cards with this problem but has since offered all customers free upgrades to cards that fit
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re stereo sound problem on mac games in qsfak skc network ucsd edu dpb sdchemw ucsd edu doug p book writes but the following games only play out of the left channel but still stereo system beeps do play in stereo through both speakers mac sound hardware is diverse some macs play in stereo and mix the output the se for instance while others play in stereo but only has the left channel for the speaker while some are truly mono like the lc developers know that stuff played in the left channel is guaranteed to be heard while the right channel isn t some send data to both some only send data to the left channel the first is preferrable of course cheers h jon w tte h nada kth se mac hacker deluxe engineering how will this work science why will this work management when will this work liberal arts do you want fries with that jesse n schell
comp.sys.mac.hardware	duo slowdown problems i m a system and network admin one of my users has a duo specifications below that has been having slowdown problems leaving the duo on for several hours causes it to slow down unacceptably it can take seconds to change applications during this time it is completely hung if he reboots the problem goes away for a while it seems the system is getting itself into a wedged configuration he s re installed system and rebuilt the desktop neither of these have helped it s possible that it s network related he uses eudora which checks his email every minutes over ethernet he hasn t checked to see if this problem occurs while undocked he s docked most of the time little to no non apple inits i don t want to start yanking the rest unless i know that might really be the problem he hasn t tried zapping the pram i have advised him to do that next anyone who has ideas i d love to hear about them i d call apple but i ve found they re best to call during the week it s sunday evening powerbook duo mb ram card from tech works to replace non self refreshing mb card is using system enabler express modem including latest software has been to apple dealer for keyboard replacement helen trillian rose hrose kei com hrose eff org kapor enterprises inc email eff eff org for eff info electronic frontier foundation flames to systems and networks administration women not to be messed with eff org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pc syquest on a mac is it possible ie via creative cable splicing or whatever to hook a syquest mb removable drive to a mac is there any difference with the guts of the drive or is it just cable differences thanks rob rob sprecher rcs po cwru edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re non apple mini docks available a a deguzman deguzman after math uiuc edu wrote my boss is considering the purchase of a powerbook or duo he is leaning towards a because of the math coprocessor for mathematica but would get a duo if he could find a mini dock with a coprocessor have any third parties announced such a beast i believe that e machines might produce something of this nature jonathan heiliger electric power research institute m m visualization integrator hillview ave internet jonathan mecca epri com palo alto ca telephone
comp.sys.mac.hardware	se rom i just bought a select and rushed home to print some grayscale pictures for my kids when i discovered that grayscale and photograde are not available if you are using an se even if you are running with an cpu you won t see this in the printer s docs and the apple rep didn t mention it to our users group either it seems that se roms won t support those features okay i guess i should have somehow known that this was the case let the buyer beware huh apple be that as it may i have been thinking about the problem and i m puzzled why can t a defencieny in the rom be made up for in software i write software for a living on unix platforms and i don t understand the it just can t be done responses i ve gotten from those i have asked so far isn t mode or somesuch piece of soft ware just such a fix anyway i was hoping someone knowledgeable about mac internals could set me straight is it simply impossible for a mac se to print grayscale or could someone armed with enough info and a little pro gramming experience cook something up that would supplement the rom s capabilities also how does one know if one s mac can support the grayscale and photograde that the select is supposedly capable of short of buying the printer and trying it out like i did thanks for your help bill wright wgw netcom com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re why does apple give us a confusing message in article ferch swiss ucs ubc ca les ferch ferch ucs ubc ca writes afterall apple s literature is not always correct a funny one i noticed recently is that some of the brochures on the macs with cd capability refer to the auto inkjet feature this should have read auto inject feature as it does on some other correct brochures i ve seen from apple since it was correct on some older brochures i can only guess that someone edited the copy saw inject and thought it was a typo and changed it to the more familiar word inkjet hmmm what would that be a printer built into the cd player a way of writing information to a cd how do you think they get the cool images on the top serface of cd s anyway they gotta have something to do the top surface artwork
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mo driver compatibility it s my understanding that when you format a magneto optical disc the formatting software installs a driver on the disc if you insert the disc in a different drive then this driver is loaded into the computer s memory and then controls the drive and if this driver is incompatible with the drive then the disc can not be mounted and or properly read written is that correct thanks jim frazier compuserve com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re se rom in article wgwc pdl y netcom com wgw netcom com william g wright writes anyway i was hoping someone knowledgeable about mac internals could set me straight is it simply impossible for a mac se to print grayscale or could someone armed with enough info and a little pro gramming experience cook something up that would supplement the rom s capabilities also how does one know if one s mac can support the grayscale and photograde that the select is supposedly capable of short of buying the printer and trying it out like i did thanks for your help bill wright wgw netcom com to use the grayscale features i believe you need a mac equipped with colour quickdraw i was told this somewhere or other but it s not mentioned in apple facts guide for apple sellers in the press release or in the technical specs sean
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac oriented bbss in chicago a member of the local bbs i frequent is looking for mac oriented bbss based in chicago any leads would be most appreciated
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re pds vs nubus was re lc iii nubus capable in article apr fnalf fnal gov higgins fnalf fnal gov bill higgins beam jockey writes in article c kzls kkb dartvax dartmouth edu hades coos dartmouth edu brian v hughes writes mmiller garnet msen com marvin miller writes my friend recently purchased a lc iii and he wants to know if there is such a demon called nubus adapter for his pds slot the lc family of macs can only use pds cards they are not able to use nubus ah but why can some technically hip macslinger tell us what the difference is between pds and nubus is it impossible to make a gadget that plugs into pds and ends in a nubus card cage at least marvin s friend has not been able to locate one and neither have i what is the fundamental reason for this o zap bill higgins fermi national accelerator laboratory bitnet higgins fnal bitnet internet higgins fnal fnal gov span hepnet higgins second wave makes nubus card cages that work on the pds slots of at least three macs the se iisi and centris they have not to my knowledge announced such a device for the lcii but they could make one technologically the pds card that goes to the cage simply needs the nubus controller circuitry present on nubus macs why though does anyone care about this dgr has a three pds adapter for the lc lcii they will soon have one for the lciii pds is better than nubus for most people in most applications granted there are more nubus cards but most applications that require a nubus card like full motion video capture shouldn t be done on an lc lcii lciii anyway mark
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re se rom seanmcd ac dal ca writes in article wgwc pdl y netcom com wgw netcom com william g wright writes anyway i was hoping someone knowledgeable about mac internals could set me straight is it simply impossible for a mac se to print grayscale or could someone armed with enough info and a little pro gramming experience cook something up that would supplement the rom s capabilities to use the grayscale features i believe you need a mac equipped with colour quickdraw i was told this somewhere or other but it s not mentioned in apple facts guide for apple sellers in the press release or in the technical specs sean i think you will find that the mac se can print grayscale images loaded with the proper software however the mac se cannot display grayscale on its screen or any attached video because that ability is not in the rom so while you might be able to print grayscale you d have a hard time seeing the grayscale image you want to print doug this signature under construction wyvern technologies tidewater s premier online information system login guest password guest to register
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re serial port problem in article qcq ginn q calvin usc edu wls calvin usc edu writes a friend asked me to build a cable to connect an hp fetal heart monitor to a maciontosh se no problem sez i i wanted to demo it on my pb it won t work the pb has been used running zterm and kermit using both internal and external modems so i don t think it s the powerbook per se when i send a to the hp it responds with aa a test of the serial ports it works on the se but not on the pb i thought that the se is connected to earth ground and so is the hp so i connected from the chassis of the hp to the pw audio ground connector still ng any thoughts battery powered devices like the powerbook are sometimes more sensitive to serial port weirdness i had trouble with connecting my mac plus to an hp lx handheld everything else worked okay on that port but not the hp it runs on two penlite batteries it turned out that the plus by accident or by design flaw was putting a volt bias on the serial port that was doing weird things to the hp which has only v dc the hp worked fine when connected to the printer port does your pb screen get dim or anything when connected to the device have you tried using the printer port good luck jamie jamie cox jcox ess harris com phone work harris space systems corp home ms rock barnes blvd the macintosh meeting and drinking society rockledge florida usa speaking only for myself
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re powerpc ruminations was re lciii powerpc in article apr ac dal ca seanmcd ac dal ca writes in article pyramid pyramid com andrem pyrtech mis pyramid com andre molyneux writes in article qksuq tt hal gnu ai mit edu mirsky hal gnu ai mit edu david joshua mirsky writes hi i own an lciii and i recently heard an interesting rumor i heard that the lciii has a built in slot for a powerpc chip is this true i heard that the slot is not the same as the pds slot is that true thanks david mirsky mirsky gnu ai mit edu well i also have an lc iii popping the top revealed one socket for an additional vram simm one socket for a pin ram simm one socket for a flat pack fpu a processor direct slot pds identical to the lc lc ii but with an additional set of connetions to one side for the full bit data path that the lc lc ii lacked that s it i guess a board with a powerpc chip could be made that would fit in the pds but that s the only place so will it be possible to have a nubus or pds powerpc upgrade or will it require a logic board swap it would be interesting for apple to come out with a nubus powerpc that allowed use of the cpu s x like rocketshare but i guess that s getting a bit fantastic i was wondering since macweek reported that developers were seeded with powerpcs on a nubus card also any word on machine arrivals or estimated speed last i heard the estimates were around times the speed of a quadra in native risc mode i heard an apple employee mumble something about the arrival of powerpc machines at a much earlier date that q but i doubt it s true finally is the powerpc developer s cd mini course available i saw it advertised in the developer s university calendar and i d like to know if it s at all interesting sean seanmcd ac dal ca radius speculated publicly that they could provide a powerpc based rocket for existing macs it would have the plus of rocketshare and the minus of nubus accelerators no true boot off the accelerator nubus bottleneck to video and other i o apple it seems will not compete with third parties here except perhaps for not yet available macs like cyclone where a powerpc slot might be advertised look for daystar and such to make powerpc accelerators one potential problem with any accelerator though is that it will need a rom companion and apple has licensed only radius with rocketshare to use any of its proprietary code apple is between the lines trying to let us know that powerpc macs will have simplified logic boards due to the magical nature of risc and that these boards should be much cheaper to build than those in existing macs perhaps then we ll see groundbreaking prices in mac logic board upgrades much the same way we ve seen much cheaper high performance cpus this year first generation powerpcs s will also hopefully have socketed cpus so that they ll be chip upgradeable to s a year later this should be possible in much the same way that s can be pulled for clock doublers if there is too much technical baggage which i doubt since the external busses are the same size width to do this perhaps we can have cpu daughterboard a la powerbook as standard to facilitate better cpu upgrades this is an area where apple has fallen far behing the intel based world perhaps catchup is in order by the way last week s pc week had an excellent story on powerpc pentium mips r dec alpha the big four on the microprocessor front for the forseeable future worth reading for technojunkies also the latest pc has a cover story on pentium read it and all the other stories about how intel is unstoppable and preeminent right now once anyone is this secure they are due to fall intel s market position will never again be as dominant as it is today especially if amd gets the go ahead to sell its s this week as it appears it might the competition from all fronts is gearing up for an awesome battle apple users should be excited that powerpc while not guaranteed dominance is a guaranteed winner even if its one of several mark
comp.sys.mac.hardware	networking how to get ma peter i m sure someone out there has a better easier way to do what you want to do but i ll tell you how we do it where i work we have about macs networked together using appletalk and phonenet connectors to chat we use a program called broadcast with it we can send brief messages to all or selected machines within the network hope that helps steed
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re se acc graphics card in article bcf dd ics uci edu matt madsen mmadsen bonnie ics uci edu writes are there any graphics cards for the se that also have say an accelerator there seem to be plenty of accelerator graphics cards for the se but none that i ve seen for the se the daystar powercache for the se replaces the cpu with an accelerated cpu plus the powercache this leavese the pds slot open for a video card currenty daystar does not have the in this configuration but it is due out early next year with their upgrade policy you can get the accelerator now and when the version becomes available you get credit for the one you have i am running their mhz version with fpu along with a radius precision color pivot and i m very satisfied earl d fife department of mathematics fife calvin edu calvin college grand rapids mi
comp.sys.mac.hardware	accelerator for classic ii does one exist who makes it and how much thanks
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re pc syquest on a mac in qsk u d l usenet ins cwru edu rcs po cwru edu robert c sprecher writes is it possible ie via creative cable splicing or whatever to hook a syquest mb removable drive to a mac is there any difference with the guts of the drive or is it just cable differences thanks their should be no difference in the drive itself between ibm pc and mac the two main differences are the formatting of the disk itself but with the correct software each can read the others and maybe the cable depends on your scsi board on ibm pc if you get some mac softawre to allow mounting of any ibm formatted disk and the correct cable you should br able to mount and read your ibm pc syquest good luck paul paul hardwick technical consulting internet hardwick panix com p o box for mvs sp xa esa voice ny ny and rd party addons fax pending paul hardwick technical consulting internet hardwick panix com p o box for mvs sp xa esa voice ny ny and rd party addons fax pending
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re video resolution switching in article john shepardson esh moose slac stanford edu john shepardson john shepardson esh qmail slac stanford edu writes as the author of dpi on the fry i can tell you that there is no way for a graphics card to know what resolution its connected monitor will actually support that s why we have these silly cables the cable just identifies that monitor as supporting a given resolution therefore the software will support any multisync monitor i ve heard that radius has a similar program for the quadra is this software available either commercially or public domain if so where cameron lewis email lewis tanelorn aod dsto gov au air operations division melb gbb aeronautical research laboratory d s t o fax lorimer st fishermens bend vic australia
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re mac portable vs powerbook answers regarding the post for information about the mac portable and the powerbook here are a couple of the answers does the mac portable support appletalk yes what cpu is in the mac portable a low power version of the running at mhz does the mac portable run system yes although it does use up a lot of memory is memory still availabe for the portable there are several vendors that still make ram for the portable there are two options some vendors sell memory that plugs into the ram slot inside the portable others sell memory that plugs into the processor direct slot either way the most memory you can address is either or megabytes depending on whether the portable is backlit or not king memory and peripherials in irvine california is the cheapest place i know of for portable memory mb mb and mb i still see several ads in macuser that are selling mb modules for wide variety in pricing here what is the internal hd its a conner cp mb hd with an average access time of about ms is the screen better that the pb heavens yes the pb is a backlit passive matrix screen which means it fades out on you if you move your head a few degrees left or right the portable has a backlit or non backlit active matrix screen which i think is a joy to read other things to consider where to get the portable and how much to pay for it a good supplier has been selectterm in mass they were willing to sell a mb non backlit portable with an internal bps modem for about or a mb backlit portable with an internal bps modem for about the answer is call around for a good while or you ll pay too much i m still looking for an internal fax modem for the portable anybody got one they want to sell good luck gene wright gene theporch raider net gene wright theporch raider net the macinteresteds of nashville
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitor recommendation needed i have finally decided to update my se i am planning on buying a centris cd now what monitor should i get here are a few guidelines my wife uses pagemaker occasionally i use excel sometimes and i do alot of telecommuting from home to work we both do word processing greater than inches i have looked at the radius color pivot this can be bought for under i have heard good things about the e machines t the older model not the new t ii how about the super mac t these both can be had for a little over any others garry
comp.sys.mac.hardware	what size vram simm is this hi everyone i recently posted about how i received a bad vram chip for my new lciii and someone responded that it may not actually be bad but it may be a k lc vram chip and thus doesn t work properly with my computer so i m wondering if anyone can interpret these codes for me so i can figure out what type of chip macconnection sent me each chip says m a j on the back of the card it says i believe from the numbers that means it is an ns chip but i can t figure out what the size is supposed to be if anyone can help i d be grateful please email me your response thanks a lot hillel sims simsh rpi edu rensselaer polytechnic institute is rot rotated forward or backward anonymous
comp.sys.mac.hardware	ghost on apple color user insane dear netters my sister has an apple color display hooked up to an lc problem there is an annoying horizontal ghost like stripe that precesses vertically about once per second it is about cm high she is in grave danger of going insane because of it any ideas of what it might be and how i might cure it for her joe betts betts netcom com ps if i pick up the display i thought it might be rfi from the lc it seems to get worse
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re networking how to get ma in bd cd c axolotl steed bell macrocosm omahug org steed bell writes networked together using appletalk and phonenet connectors to chat we use a program called broadcast with it we can send brief messages to all or selected machines within the network if you use system you can use my application zing which has a kb footprint meaning you can have it running all the time without losing memory it is also compatible with the chat program fishbomb which allows sounds and pictures as well both are as far as i know freeware i dustribute zing with source and should be available on the normal services mac archive umich edu for instance cheers h jon w tte h nada kth se mac hacker deluxe this signature is kept shorter than lines in the interests of usenet s n ratio
comp.sys.mac.hardware	us simm prices please please could someone in the us give me the current street prices on the following with and without any relevant taxes mb pin simm mb pin simm both for mac lc iii are any tax refunds possible if they are to be exported to the uk can you recommend a reliable supplier as i am posting this from a friend s account please reply direct to me at s fraser ic ac uk thanks in advance for any help simon
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra scsi problems i would like more info on this if anybody has it our exabyte tapedrive has never been working from the quadra we have been trying it since september replaced cabling inits i don t know what all all the industry experts we phoned the tapedrive dealer our apple dealer the software dealer all say it s our fault or they don t know the last thing they said was that we needed a special quadra scsi terminator anybody know more thanks katinka van der linden katinka fenk wau nl
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re why does apple give us a confusing message ferch ucs ubc ca les ferch writes in c ngii bgx news cis umn edu bunt student tc umn edu monthian buntan writes does anyone know why apple has an ambiguous message for c regarding fpu in all mac price lists i ve seen every c as the message fpu optional i know from what we ve discussed in this newsgroup that all c have the fpu built in except the configuration why would they be so unclear about this issue in their price list perhaps the reason is simple maybe the marketing people who put together the brochures and price lists weren t clear on the fpu issue perhaps the marketing people don t know what an fpu is terry
comp.sys.mac.hardware	changing port buffer size in zterm some kind soul told me that i could change the serial port buffer size of zterm via resedit he did not tell me how i could change it using resedit and i have lost his e mail address could he or any one else please tell me what to do i assume that the relevant resource is zset but i do not know and i have no template for that resource if you have a tmpl for the correct resource i would be grateful to receive it that way i could play around a bit and maybe get my duo to do something useful with its serial port other than appletalk btw i believe that when the port stats says that maximum in buffer is bytes that that means increasing the buffer will help if you are using hardware handshaking i can cram text data pretty fast into my duo and can monitor that cts is being lowered but the buffer never gets beyond out of bytes makes sense to me scott petrack petrack haifasc vnet ibm com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	using setwutime with a pb i seem to be having some trouble with this i can get the mac to go to sleep but i can t make seem to make it wake up with setwutime i am aware of the error in the header files and im vi i am setting the wu time to be about two minutes then putting the mac to sleep but it doesn t wakeup at the appointed time does it require a call to systemtask in order to make sure that everything is setup andrew e page warrior poet decision and effort the archer and arrow mac consultant the difference between what we are macintosh and dsp technology and what we want to be
comp.sys.mac.hardware	serial line connection between duo and pc i have tried almost everything under the sun to get a null modem connection between a mac duo and a pc i have used mackermit and versaterm on the mac side i have used procomm kermit and softerm on os on the pc or ps side i have used non hardware handshaking and hardware ahdshaking cables and know my hands are shaking from the effort nothing has allowed file transfers from the mac to the ps in general i can type back and forth with no trouble but only if both sides are set to speeds over baud i cannot send files from the mac to the ps at all and file transfers from the duo to the ps are not possible when i do a straight ascii send i can send from the ps to the duo flawlessly i can send binhex files this way quite fast and i know that the transmission is error free but straight ascii sent from the mac to the ps is full of errors unless of course i do text pacing so slow that it is like human typing well like times faster than human typing i would like to hear from anyone who has been able to transfer files from a duo to a ps via modem or null modem if you can do it please tell me your exact combination of hardware and software obviously i am talking of a true serial port modem not the express modem maybe some kind soul with access to a modem and a duo can check this out for me right now i am of the opinion that it won t work at high speeds because of the power interrupts on the duo and it won t work at low speeds because of some crazy reason i don t understand could i hear from someone attesting that they can really pump information out the serial port of a duo fast like via a modem or via a sys ex dump could anyone with a duo help me out i am going absolutely insane i wanna know if the problem is my duo or all duo s or all duos or just me yes i have checked the cable times and not only can i type back and forth but zterm alerts the users if s he uses hardware handshaking and cts is down so i know that hardware handshaking is working and also according to zterm port stats the buffer never overflows please help me figure out what s going on scott petrack petrack haifasc vnet ibm com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra scsi problems in article c l p qz news udel edu johnston me udel edu bill johnston writes in article apr mintaka lcs mit edu nodine lcs mit edu mark h nodine writes i don t know about the specific problem mentioned in your message but i definitely had scsi problems between my q and my venerable jasmine megadrive cartridge drives my solution was to get silverlining none of the loops that involved blind writes worked to the drives in fact the only loop that worked was the macintosh software loop whatever that means i doubt this is a quadra specific problem i had to get rid of my venerable bernoulli last year with enough cartridges purchased at each to make the whole thing worth more than my whole computer the tech support guys at ocean microsystems suggested that some third party drivers might fix the problem in my case the cartridges wouldn t format mount partition for a ux all i know is that the megadrives worked perfectly on both my mac plus and my powerbook it was for this reason i assumed the problem had something to do with the quadra even with the quadra they mostly worked ok the problem occurred when i ejected a cartridge from a drive it would start popping up dialog boxes saying this cartridge must be formatted with jasmine driveware even though there was no cartridge in the drive mark
comp.sys.mac.hardware	token ring cards for macs i am looking for recommendations experiences of bringing macintosh cpus onto token ring nets can someone point me in the right direction for information thanks in advance tom
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re photo shop scanner in article c lgii euj ncube com root ncube com operator writes from root ncube com operator subject photo shop scanner date fri apr gmt i have a macc iici and a color scanner i scanned a picture at dpi when i try to print it on my hp color printer after minutes of making noise the mac hangs i would need to reboot it what does this mean do i need to buy more memory i have mb now i also have about mb of disk free and the scanned picture is about mb captain zod zod ncube com have you tried printing the data file tiff from another application such as freehand or pagemaker i have found that photoshop has occasional problems printing files that i can print through other applications greg gcohen mailer cc fsu edu infinite illusions juggling supplies beware of the fnord or it will torch call or write for a eat you catalog
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re position of b on erg keyboard in article apr daimi aau dk viralbus daimi aau dk thomas martin widmann writes so far i have only seen pictures of the new ergonomic keyboard but it seems that the b is placed on the left part after the split however when i learned typing in school some years ago i was taught to write b with my right hand is this a difference between danish and american typing or what thanks a lot in advance in germany you usually use the left hand for the b yours frankie frank probul emanuelstr d munich germany applelink probul f applelink apple com internet probulf informatik tu muenchen de munich university of technology department of computer science germany
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re my iicx won t turn on in article vv kl rpi edu pilon aix ecs rpi edu t j pilon wrote anyone know what would cause my iicx to not turn on when i hit the keyboard switch the one in the back of the machine doesn t work either the only way i can turn it on is to unplug the machine for a few minutes then plug it back in and hit the power switch in the back immediately sometimes this doesn t even work for a long time tj this problem is most likely the same that all cx users are experiencing thanks to one very adventurous usenet reader sorry i can t remember the guy s name somebody please post it he deserves the credit for saving us all it is easily fixed if it is the same problem best i can figure it is due to time heat and repeated warmup cool downs in the power supply i e bad solder joints in the power supply circuit card go get a desolder tool from radio shack a low wattage iron and some good nonacid solder and resolder the lower left quadrant of the circuit card with the ac plugs facing away from you or get someone to do it for you it took me less then minutes and saved me at least for a new supply
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re questions about the centris s ram petere tesla mitre org peter d engels writes according to the seen several times postings from dale adams of apple computer both the and the require ns simms not ns only the centris requires ns simms you re correct except that s quadra not centris hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re changing port buffer size in zterm in almaden ibm com petrack vnet ibm com writes some kind soul told me that i could change the serial port buffer size of zterm via resedit he did not tell me how i could change it using resedit and i have lost his e mail address could he or any one else please tell me what to do i assume that the relevant resource is zset but i do not know and chop could you please post it to the net too please as i and i m sure many others would like to know thanks kev kevin hayes my opinions do necessarily dalhousie university reflect the opinions of halifax nova scotia canada myself so sue me hayes ug cs dal ca
comp.sys.mac.hardware	card questions i m considering buying one of these to offload the internal video in my iici and to get bit color capability on my monitor what s the deal on them do they come with varying amounts of ram if so what is the max and min how much do i need for x x bits what bit depths are supported one and are all these cards accelerated or just some is it true that modern accelerated video cards are at least in general faster what bit depths are accelerated all or just bit i ve heard that some applications actually run slower with this card if they write directly to the screen or something like that is this a frequent problem how much slower is it didn t i read when system first came out that the card was incompatible if so how was this corrected finder patch some init or other has it been kept compatible with are there many other apps that it is incompatible with games or important i e non microsloth apps for example if you have a strong opinion on it s value for someone in my position let me know what you think a reasonable price is to pay for it thanks a lot for you input rick rick roy usenet rick howtek mv com america online qed disclaimer my employer s views are orthogonal to these the early bird got worms
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re increasing the number of serial ports in article apr bmers bnr ca slang bnr ca steven langlois wrote does anyone know if there are any devices available for the mac which will increase the number of serial ports available for use simultaneously i would like to connect up to serial devices to my mac for an application i am working on i must be able to access each one of the independently if such a device exists are there are any limits to the number of serial devices i can use any information is appreciated steven langlois slang bnr ca the quadralink by ae is a possibly problematical solution to your needs i ve used one for the last years on my personal system but a fatal bug has crept into their more recent s w the bug only shows up during heavy serial traffic but completely crashes the system macsbug can not reboot time to hit the restart button ae told me in january that they were aware of and working on fixing the bug which i described to them since then they have not answered any of my faxes asking them for a status of the bug fix the ql has been great but for now i have mine sidelined if you are only going to be using baud or less then you may have no or very infrequent problems sven
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadras vram question daniel salber salber imag fr writes i have a question regarding quadras vram i have tried to find info on this but i could not get precise answers on one hand we have a quadra with a monitor which is capable of bit color how much vram does it have to display millions of colors on a monitor you need mb of vram in the q on the other hand we have a quadra with a monitor which is capable of bit color only so it must have ko of vram correct this is the amount of on board vram that the q comes with i would like to take vram simms for the and put them in the so that both machines have bit color capability is it possible and if yes how many vram simms should i take from the yes this is possible technically you only need to take out of the vram simms but leaving in the other two will not get you anything because the cannot really do anything with mb of vram it only knows mb and mb from the documentation i have the quadra must get mo vram to have bit color is that correct yes this is correct you get to mb by putting k vram simms into the vram simm slots on the q s motherboard bonus question where do vram simms hide from the documentation they seem to be behind the power supply do i really have to take off the power supply to access the vram simms yup you have to take off the power supply it s only a couple of screws so you should be ok just make sure that everything is disconnected from it and watch out for static discharges
comp.sys.mac.hardware	cache card for iisi i m looking for a cache card for my iisi i can spend max for it what i need is kb cache with a fpu socket and a dual slot adapter or at least a passe through connector so i can keep my graphic card i need your advice about the best card i can buy how much performance increase i should expect does the performance increase between the and kb cache worths the price difference and what s the best price i can get for such a card i really need to spare each possible i have an ethernet card for the lc with fpu i don t think it would work for the iisi but the fpu is socketed do you think i can take the fpu out of the card and put it in the empty fpu socket would it work at mhz if not how much should i pay for an extra fpu sham u ya tha s seif u lam yaghib i ibaa oueichek oueichek imag imag fr ya jamal al majd i fi l kutub i lab de genie informatique lgi kablak i t tareekh u fi thulmaten imag inpg baadak i staula ala sh shuhub i av felix viallet grenoble
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re macs suck buy a pc in article c ouop f t news cis umn edu horton molbio cbs umn edu robert horton writes tests suck post a real message presumably erme maula is testing the size limits of his email account that s erme pobox upenn edu for those who missed it
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris video problem i m having it also in article qqf b oc usenet ins cwru edu bm cleveland freenet edu david kantrowitz writes from push media mit edu pushpinder singh subject re centris video problem i m having it also date sat apr gmt when the computer is set for colors and certain operations are done particularly vertical scrolling through a window horizontal white lines appear on the monitor which generally but not always spare open windows these lines accummulate as the operation is continued if a window is moved over the involved area of the screen and then moved away the line disappear from that area of the screen this problem is not observed if the monitor is configured for colors or a inch apple monitor with colors is used i suspect a bad video ram chip but cannot be certain the problem has been apparent since day but has gotten worse etc has anyone not had these problems in the given configurations that would help eliminate design flaw as the explanation as a data point i m using a centris with the apple monitor and do not have these problems dch
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re help with simm configuration rcs po cwru edu robert c sprecher writes can someone please help me understand the current situation regarding simms sure i can give is a shot i have a iisi which i will probably keep for another years i would like to add more memory ie go from mb to mb i know that i will need x mb ns or faster simms which simms pin or pin you need to get the pin simms would the simms i get today be usable in years with a newer more powerful system if you mean in a newer more powerful mac system then the answer is no apple has stated that all new macs will use the pin simms and no longer use the pin simms hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re why does apple give us a confusing message ubs carson u washington edu university bookstore writes bunt student tc umn edu monthian buntan writes does anyone know why apple has an ambiguous message for c regarding fpu in all mac price lists i ve seen every c has the message fpu optional i know from what we ve discussed in this newsgroup that all c have the fpu built in except the configuration why would they be so unclear about this issue in their price list i think this is mostly the fault of the people who write up the literature and price lists being confused themselves since there are two possible processor configurations and one of the them doesn t have an fpu it does seem to be an option even though it really isn t i m planning to buy the c cd pretty soon but i m now getting confused with whether it comes with fpu or not well then allow me to end your confusion the c only come with an lc in the base configuration if you are not getting this configuration then you are getting an fpu why say optional if it s built in good question i have been wondering that since feb th if you get the centris with cd configuration you are getting a mac with a rc processor that has built in math coprocessor support my understanding is that the optional fpu refers to your option of purchasing the centris without fpu or one of the other configurations with fpu this is possible but an option is something that you are supposed to be able to request when you want it what apple has done is given the buyer a choice between configurations and not an option apple does not offer an upgrade from the non fpu system to become an fpu system and it is unclear whether the processor on the non fpu system a lc can be replaced with a rc supplied by another vendor this is not unclear at all in fact apple has included in the roms of those machines with lc s code to recognize the presence of the full s fpu and use it thereby making the upgrade as easy as switching chips you pop the lc out and pop in a full apple did send a memo out at one point sating that the centris which only comes with a non fpu lc processor cannot be upgraded to support an fpu the pin configurations of the two chips apparently do not match so you cannot swap one for another again according to apple s memo they did i think i would double check this it has been stated countless times in this newsgroup by two of the centris hardware designers that the lc and the full are pin compatible and that the c can be upgraded to a full hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re centris math coprocessor option david anthony guevara cup portal com writes sorry if this is a faq i don t normally read comp sys mac hardware i am purchasing a couple of centris s i configured the systems as follows eight mb ram ethernet mb vram math coprocessor option my purchasing agent told me about the math coprocessor option and sent me the apple summary documentation to prove it i ordered the coprocessor option but i m really not sure that we needed it i thought the chip had a math coprocessor built into it has apple had a math coprocessor chip architectured to keep up with the speed of the chip in the centris i am concerned that i may have set up a hardware bottleneck apple has really confused people with this whole thing i think we ll be answering this question for about the next year or so there is no option to get an fpu on a c what you have is a choice of cpus there is the lc that does not have an integrated fpu like the full and is only present in the base model of the c appleusa and there is the full which you get when you order anything other than the base configuration therefore since you have ordered one of the mb versions with on board ethernet models you will not be getting the lc but even if you wanted to have the lc you wouldn t be able to order a c with mb ram on board ethernet and an lc it s not an option also a note to people out there that have c s and c s thinking that there is an optional fpu the class chip cannot recognize an external fpu so there is no socket on the motherboard for a fpu chip and you cannot go out and purchase an fpu on a pds card or something like that the only way to get an fpu in these machines is to replace the lc with a full and if you have a c you will not need to worry about a heat sink if you do replace the lc with the full but if you have a c you do need to have a heat sink hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re tcp ip routing localtalk ethernet in article qpn uinnjs stimpy css itd umich edu bchuang css itd umich edu ben chuang wrote here is the story i have a network with macs on localtalk one of them has an ethernet card and is currently connected to a next don t laugh i got it for the price of a mac iisi the next is connected to the internet over slip running on a baud modem currently we can telnet from the mac w ethernet to the next and then telnet out again to the rest of the world what we want to know is if there is some sort of hardware that will route telnet sessions from the localtalk macs to the next via the ethernet mac from what we have heard air doesn t do the trick software solutions would be good too but my impression is that there aren t going to be any our immediate interest is to be able to get to the next and telnet out again the slip connection doesn t allow us to assign ip numbers to machines so everyone shares that number oh well what you need is a hardware router such as etherroute tcp made by compatable systems this will allow you to connect your localtalk network macs to your ethernet network next and ethernet mac it will route tcp ip protocol between the two networks software routers are also available for less money but i m not sure if they work with tcp ip paul
comp.sys.mac.hardware	full page pb screen hi i am working on a project for my marketing class and i d like to ask your help the assignment is to come up with a product and create a marketing plan for it technical issues are not terribly important at this point well my group s plan is to market a full page monitor for laptop computers it would be a third party product to be installed by authorized repair centers like newer technology s palettebook screen the idea is that the screen would fold in such a way that you would get twice the screen height of a normal screen remember technical issues aside in fact by adjusting the fold of the screen and the monitor configuration you could have regular or full height the screen would probably be monochrome the motivation behind this is that laptop computers seem to be very popular among business people business people also commonly use word processing and spreadsheet applications for which it is very convenient to see a large portion of the document because of the target users and applications color screens aren t really a neccessity we could hopefully keep the cost between and now please don t write this off as completely ridiculous i really need some constructive feedback so if you would please reply to me via email and let me know if you would consider buying a full page laptop screen how much you would be willing to pay for it any helpful commentaries on the idea also if you take this idea and make a lot of money off it doubtful but who knows please send me some thanks in advance mike
comp.sys.mac.hardware	built in video problems on mac iisi dear mac friends i ve seen the following problem om three mac iisi machines all with mb ram installed or ns simms if the contents of a window are being calculated and updated a lot of strange horizontal lines are temporarily generated on the screen the lines translate to the top of the screen and have a slightly lower brightness than their surroundings they are a few millimeters apart i admit that they are vague but they can still be distinguished clearly especially if the environment i e the rest of the room is a bit dark applications which produce this effect are the previewer of directtex i e dvireader kaleidagraph fpu the machines use their built in video and drive the old apple hires monochrome screen two monitors cable sets tried the effect is independent of the settings in the following control panels memory adressing mode disk cache and monitors nr of greys colors have you ever seen this effect too is there a solution thanks fred fred walsteijn internet walsteyn fys ruu nl institute for marine and atmospheric research fax utrecht university the netherlands phone
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pin simms where i am looking for a meg pin simm for my centris where is the best place to purchase one stock shipping warrenty and if possible phone numbers so that i can order one as soon as possible thanks steven and hope that there s intelligent life somewhere out in space monty python cause there s bugger all down here on earth the meaning of life steven medley email to smedley erasure ecst csuchico edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	when is apple going to ship cd i s i would really like to get one of the new cd i cdrom drives for my c but my local apple doesn t know when they will be available he doesn t even have a part number yet does anyone know what the part number for this drive is and when it will be available my apple dealer suggested i buy one of the cd external drives but i don t want to pay extra for a case power supply i m not going to use rodney jacks rjacks austlcm sps mot com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	whither quickdraw performance across product line my company has developed an application for the mac that emulates a chart recorder virtual pen traces scroll smoothly across the screen as we tested the application on a number of computers we discovered some surprising performance differences across products the scroll performance of the iisi and lcii was better than the iifx this led us to investigate color quickdraw performance across the apple line the results the fastest quickdraw color performing computer apple makes is the drumroll please lciii and the color classic ranks right up there with the quadra line the centris line pales in comparison does anybody know the differences in these computers that explains the disparity in graphics processor performance dave steele daves xetron com xetron corp w crescentville road cincinnati ohio
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re cache card for iisi hi i bought a while ago a cache card w fpu from techworks it was i think that was the cheapest i ever saw peter
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re position of b on erg keyboard in apr informatik tu muenchen de probulf informatik tu muenchen de frank probul writes however when i learned typing in school some years ago i was taught to write b with my right hand is this a difference between danish and american typing or what in germany you usually use the left hand for the b same in sweden the ergonomic keyboard is great but the palm rests do not fix to the keyboard they just sort of rests against the table too bad when you have the keyboard in your knee cheers h jon w tte h nada kth se mac hacker deluxe you never hide the menu bar you might go about and change the color of it to the color of the background but you never hide the menu bar tog
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re built in video problems on mac iisi in apr fys ruu nl walsteyn fys ruu nl fred walsteijn writes i ve seen the following problem om three mac iisi machines all with mb ram installed or ns simms if the contents of a window are being calculated and updated a lot of strange horizontal lines are temporarily generated on the screen the lines translate to the top of the screen and have a slightly lower brightness than their surroundings they are a few millimeters apart i admit that they are vague but they can still be distinguished clearly especially if the environment i e the rest of the room is a bit dark applications which produce this effect are the previewer of directtex i e dvireader kaleidagraph fpu another program which produces this effect is spyglass transform while contouring a big array thanks for any information about this problem fred walsteijn internet walsteyn fys ruu nl institute for marine and atmospheric research fax utrecht university the netherlands phone
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra scsi problems in article apr mintaka lcs mit edu nodine lcs mit edu mark h nodine wrote in article c l p qz news udel edu johnston me udel edu bill johnston writes in article apr mintaka lcs mit edu nodine lcs mit edu mark h nodine writes i don t know about the specific problem mentioned in your message but i definitely had scsi problems between my q and my venerable jasmine megadrive cartridge stuff deleted i doubt this is a quadra specific problem i had to get rid of my venerable bernoulli last year with enough stuff deleted might fix the problem in my case the cartridges wouldn t format mount partition for a ux all i know is that the megadrives worked perfectly on both my mac plus and my powerbook it was for this reason i assumed the problem had something to do with the quadra even with the quadra they mostly worked ok the problem occurred when i ejected a cartridge from a drive it would start popping up dialog boxes saying this cartridge must be formatted with jasmine driveware even though there was no cartridge in the drive mark the problem mentioned last is a known quadra scsi problem it was heavily discussed last year and an apple employee pointed out that there was a one byte error in the scsi driver routine for the quadra s at least the and system should not have that problem for most people the solution was to get an updated driver from the drive manufactor in my case mass microsystems wrote a new driver which fixed the problem on my quadra all that occured early last year michael s kluskens kluskens radar nrl navy mil opinions expressed are the author s and not those of his employer
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re pds vs nubus was re lc iii nubus capable in article qt vd morrow stanford edu hk mlr forsythe stanford edu mark rogowsky writes second wave makes nubus card cages that work on the pds slots of at least three macs the se iisi and centris they have not to my knowledge announced such a device for the lcii but they could make one technologically the pds card that goes to the cage simply needs the nubus controller circuitry present on nubus macs why though does anyone care about this dgr has a three pds adapter for the lc lcii they will soon have one for the lciii pds is better than nubus for most people in most applications granted there are more nubus cards but most applications that require a nubus card like full motion video capture shouldn t be done on an lc lcii lciii anyway mark nubus is a much more robust system for system for installing multiple cards without configuration problems i know that when i was checking into expasion options for an si there were a number of pds video cards that would not work with certian dual slot cache adapters erik speckman
comp.sys.mac.hardware	imagewriter ii at hz hi a while back there was a thread in this group about the use of the iwii in europe in countries with hz ac current the consensus at the time was that the iwii would not work there as i will be moving there this summer i called apple to make sure and they told me today that the iwii as bought in the u s will definitely run on hz ac current as long as a step down converter is employed if v current is used the same info turns out can be found in the iwii manual p in the version but i didn t really trust that does anyone have any direct experience to the contrary just wondering chris w
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re when is apple going to ship cd i s in article apr newsgate sps mot com rjacks austlcm sps mot com rodney jacks writes i would really like to get one of the new cd i cdrom drives for my c but my local apple doesn t know when they will be available he doesn t even have a part number yet does anyone know what the part number for this drive is and when it will be available my apple dealer suggested i buy one of the cd external drives but i don t want to pay extra for a case power supply i m not going to use rodney jacks rjacks austlcm sps mot com the cd external is already shipping and has been shipping for quite awhile now demand for the units are high so they are pretty rare i ve seen them listed for around at local computer stores and the campus mac reseller i ve also heard rumors that they are bundled with a couple of cd s but i can t confirm it sunny sunnyt dna bchs uh edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	accelerating the macplus we re about ready to take a bold step into the s around here by accelerating our rather large collection of stock macplus computers yes indeed difficult to comprehend why anyone would want to accelerate a macplus but that s another story suffuce it to say we can get accelerators easier than new machines hey i don t make the rules anyway on to the purpose of this post i m looking for info on macplus acelerators so far i ve found some lit on the novy accelerator and the micrmac multispeed accelartor both look acceptable but i would like to hear from anyone who has tried these also if someone would recommend another accelerator for the macplus i d like to hear about it thanks for any time and effort you expend on this karl
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra startup w out monitor ya right is there a fix for this we have a quadra that will not finish startup unless there is a monitor connected this would be no problem but since we re running it as a file server there is no need to have a monitor connected all the time horsefeathers shawn fitzgerald umcc u of m computing club michigan chungkuo umcc umich edu whether you are quiet and alive or quiet and dead makes no difference to cerebus
comp.sys.mac.hardware	ntsc and th 
comp.sys.mac.hardware	ntsc and the mac a question in general about displaying ntsc through a mac if i understand correctly the video spigot can display ntsc in a small window as well as capture the data in quicktime format however if i want to use a larger window what are my options perhaps i misunderstood the video spigot review also i am not interested in quicktime i would merely like to use my mac as a television from time to time i have a nice sony monitor and i would like to use it as a second tv when my wife is watching sitcoms on our regular tv perhaps some of the video cards for the mac accept ntsc input i have a iisi and i am willing to buy a nubus adapter thanks in advance for any help george micahels
comp.sys.mac.hardware	scsi ethernet converter for sale i have a strange piece of equipment to unload it is a ether scsi interface apparently it can be plugged into a scsi port and from there to an ethernet that way you save a slot nifty well i assume you people know more about it so judging by the price tag new i ll ask say anybody interested
comp.sys.mac.hardware	apple cd cdrom freebies in article quod i n menudo uh edu sunnyt coding bchs uh edu writes reseller i ve also heard rumors that they are bundled with a couple of cd s but i can t confirm it sunny sunnyt dna bchs uh edu i ve got two cd s the first one i ordered jan and i received it feb the second one i ordered jan th and i just got it april nd or so anyway they both come with misc cdroms things like a intro to nautilis a sample cd of kodak pictures from alice to ocean a story of a woman who treked across austrailia discs from apple a games disc an applications disc and a titles disc haven t checked most of these out yet also some cinderella thing for kids a disc of mozart something or others etc etc etc if someone s super interested i ll make a list of the exact titles and post them they are all in the category of interesting but probably fairly useless it was rumored that the earliest units shipped with some encyclocpedia it may have but neither of my drives had that jeff adams
comp.sys.mac.hardware	se hard drive problem i have an se with a meg hd which dates back to april when i originally purchased it i experienced the failure to boot problem this was fixed soon after by a rom upgrade on the hard drive lately a similar problem has been occuring when the computer is powered on the hd light flashes a few times and then i am given the no disk to boot from icon however upon turing the computer off and on again the drive always boots up just fine furthermore if instead of turning the power on and off i press the reboot button the same problem occurs but as i said turning the power off and on always works this problem is different from the boot problem in that before it often required several power off and ons to get it to boot does anybody have any suggestions as to what the problem is or how it can be fixed i m wondering if it s getting old and requires more time to come up to speed now is there a pram or scsi setting that allows me to tell the computer to wait a little longer before trying to access the hd thanks altan j stalker astalker nickel ucs indiana edu indiana university computer science dept
comp.sys.mac.hardware	q buying advice does anyone have a version of which mac do i buy that is later than v i no longer have access the ziffnet mac accessed through compuserve to check for myself which mac is a hypercard stack that assists in decision making based on budget features and main software used please let me know if you can help me out download from compuserve should not cost much if a higher speed modem is used stack compressed is about kb thanks for any help dale carsona sfu ca
comp.sys.mac.hardware	recommend me a ps printer i m in the market for a laser printer used printers are fine non apple printers are fine but whatever printer i get must fit the following required features postscript dpi emough memory to download fonts the cheaper the better i d prefer under nice things anything over pages per minute scsi output for a font disk smallish footprint don t care about postscript level ii networking its just for me and always will be color i know about freedom of press but i ve also heard that its painfully slow i can tolerate about ppm but anything slower than that and i m not going to consider the price savings worth it i d be curious to hear people s experience with it tho i also infinitely prefer laser over ink i used to use hp deskjets in my last job and wasn t impressed with the quality i m a laser bigot and the first to admit it i ll be using the printer to layout pages of a book i m writing the page will include multiple fonts ps graphics scanned line art and maybe greyscale pictures not sure yet the quality doesn t need to be spectacular but it needs to be clear and readable printers i ve been looking at used laserwriters the plus the nt the ntr its my understanding that only the ntr has a scsi out for a disk true personal laserwriter ls and ntr i have access to the apple employee discount i work for one of apple s spinoffs so i can get these reasonably cheaply i ve heard bad things about the ls comments i m leaning towards the personal ntr cause it has a nice small footprint laserwriter select i hear it doesn t have postscript but i haven t seen anything for sure i heard mumbles once about a postscript upgrade used hp laserjets i ve worked with the ii and iip on another platform and they were painfully slow are they that bad on the mac i ve seen ads for an epson ps laserprinter that is running quite cheap any comments on this printer i hate the styling too many ouput trays but if its a decent printer i ll consider it thanks for any comments laura lemay lemay netcom com writer of trifles in shadows and blood
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re stereo sound problem on mac games in article qsfak skc network ucsd edu doug p book dpb sdchemw ucsd edu writes hi i think i have a problem with the stereo sound output on my quadra but i am not totally sure because my roomate has the same problem on his powerbook any info or experience anyopne has would be greatly appreciated when i hook my quadra up to my home stereo system the following types of sounds mono as far as i can tell all play fine through both speakers system beeps already provided ones such as indigo and ones i record armor alley spectre spaceward ho but the following games only play out of the left channel lemmings out of this world awesome game btw glider oids but still stereo system beeps do play in stereo through both speakers the one i m specifically referrring to is apocolyptic beginning which my roommate downloaded from some ftp site sumex all of the symptoms are the same on my rommates he can t run ootw because he doesn t have color we re both running system does anyone with lemmings or the other three games i mentioned above get sound out of both speakers on a mac ii class quadra lc powerbook or greater centris se etc stereo machine i used to have a mac ii and i sort of rememeber lemmings playing in stereo on that machine not just on the left channel i could be mistaken though if there were a problem with the quad s and pb s i am wondering why the system beeps still play in stereo if there isn t a problem with our machines i wonder why the games above are apparantly written to support only one channel of stereo when they could just use mono sounds so the mono sound would at least come out of both speakers like spectre etc do quadra s and powerbook s have the same roms to my knowledge so maybe this is a rom problem if so though why wouldn t system patch over this problem thanks for any help you can provide in article apr kth se jon wtte d jwa hemul nada kth se writes mac sound hardware is diverse some macs play in stereo and mix the output the se for instance while others play in stereo but only has the left channel for the speaker while some are truly mono like the lc developers know that stuff played in the left channel is guaranteed to be heard while the right channel isn t some send data to both some only send data to the left channel the first is preferrable of course okay i guess its time for a quick explanation of mac sound the original documentation for the sound hardware im documents how to make sound by directly accessing hardware basically you jam values into all the even bytes from soundbase to soundbase x this was because of how the mac and some later machines generated sound was by scanning this block and d aing every even byte the odd bytes went to the floppy on some machines when the mac ii and apple sound chip was invented it was designed to generate stereo sound it was also designed to be compatible with we had once documented so storing bytes at the even values at soundbase meant i want to play a mono sound and so it was emulated but apple had since retracted the documentation on soundbase and decided not to document the lowest layers of sound generation so apple never explained where to stuff bytes if you want to make stereo sound enter game developers the sound driver and current sound manager are inconveniently lame for making games furthermore people who port from the ibm don t want to learn more apis so it has become popular for game writers to write to soundbase to make sound since it is very easy since the mac ii apple has had many different kind of sound output hardware and the only things they have in common are that writing to soundbase works on some hardware mac ii iix iicx iici at least writing to soundbase gets you mono sound through both speakers on some macs quadra at least writing to soundbase gets you mono sound on the left channel only both are technically correct interpretations of the original specification but one is obviously preferable for asthetic reasons if developers use the sound manager and i think the sound driver mono sounds will typically come out through both channels regardless of the underlying hardware it is possible to specify you want to generate left channel only but no one does if developers write to sound base their games will only come out the left on some games the other problem the original mac ii only producing left channel sound on the internal speaker while the se mixes both isn t really related it is due to the post generation amplification used on the motherboards of the different machines it only affects true stereo sounds sounds which are actually mono will play on the internal speaker no matter what machine you have now to more directly address the question the games you list lemmings out of this world awesome game btw glider oids and also hellcats super tetris oxyd and many more these are just what i ve tested cheat and write to soundbase and so are only left channel on quadras other games you list armor alley spectre spaceward ho and also pga tour golf civilization and more these are again only from personal experience use the sound manager and work fine on all machines the more of the story is to developers don t cheat really i am absolutely positively not allowed to do what i am about to do but i m going say it anyway stop cheating on sound really soon you will be sorry as even those without external speakers will be disappointed with your sound on future hardware the grace period is about to end the sound manager is understandable now and works pretty well and will work even better soon so use it in conclusion to doug it isn t a hardware problem at least not a bug to jon it isn t a choice to developers as to whether they want to send sound to both channels if they do it the right way it is taken care of automatically if you cheat there is not way to make it work on all hardware have fun disclaimer number i don t work on sound here at apple i m just pretty well informed so don t write me with sound questions disclaimer number if it says up above that i wrote anything like the grace period is about to end then it is a bug in your news feed since i am catagorically not allowed to say anything like that you know what i mean disclaimer number i don t speak for apple just me steve bollinger
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powerbook with a math coprocessor i really want to buy a powerbook and would like one that can run mathematica so i need a coprocessor but i can not afford a pb who can is it possible to put a mcp in a pb the guy at the bookstore says no but i didn t think he had too much of a clue please respond by e mail ross sbphy physics ucsb edu thanks in advance richard
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re cache card for iisi in article pebi zephyr aem umn edu pebi aem umn edu peter a bidian writes hi i bought a while ago a cache card w fpu from techworks it was i think that was the cheapest i ever saw as of last week mac s place had the applied engineering quicksilver card k cache one pds slot socket for fpu on sale for without fpu regular price is no idea if this is still going on but i can get the phone no if anyone is interested i found their ad in macuser jim burmeister no relation to mac s place except as a satisfied customer jimb csd harris com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pds cards for the lciii are there any pds expansion cards out there that specifically take advantage of the lciii s bit data path and mhz clock speed if they exist are they significantly faster than the lc lcii versions farul ghazali columbia university in the city of new york
comp.sys.mac.hardware	i need modem selection help especially vocabulary i ve recently ordered a centris and need to decide on which modem to buy i m pretty sure i want to get a fax data modem that can run at k but is it worth it i ll primarily only be conversing over compuserve or some other link to the internet but i m not sure if those systems can supply me with data at k another question i have is in some of the modem lingo out there i understand baud rates but what does v and v bis mean i could really use some suggestions as to what a good modem for around would be and why it would be a good choice thanks for your time dave bell dbell coral bucknell edu those who forget the past are condemned to re live it duncan macleod
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re pc syquest on a mac in article qsk u d l usenet ins cwru edu rcs po cwru edu robert c sprecher writes is it possible ie via creative cable splicing or whatever to hook a syquest mb removable drive to a mac is there any difference with the guts of the drive or is it just cable differences thanks rob rob sprecher rcs po cwru edu many companies package syquest drives for the mac already so unless you are using one for the ibm world id buy a mac ready config j
comp.sys.mac.hardware	trouble w vga displays i m currently having trouble connecting my pb to a true blue ibm model vga monitor the display is bearly readable but all the details are seperated into yellow and red colors ie a window will have two images one in yellow and a ghost image in red the background is also a little greenish i read some time ago before i ever thought i would hook my mac up to a vga screen about an incompatability with some vga monitors due to the sync on green signal does this sound like it could be the same demon i also read that there are both hardware putting a diode on the green signal solution and a software solution to this problem i don t the details does somebody have them the can e mail to me or post them i checked all the faq s for this and didn t find anything about it did i miss it somewhere this sure seems that it would be a good thing to have in one thanks for any replys charles kuehmann northwestern university steel research group
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re when is apple going to ship cd i s in article quod i n menudo uh edu sunnyt coding bchs uh edu wrote in article apr newsgate sps mot com rjacks austlcm sps mot com rodney jacks writes i would really like to get one of the new cd i cdrom drives for my c but my local apple doesn t know when they will be available he doesn t even have a part number yet does anyone know what the part number for this drive is and when it will be available my apple dealer suggested i buy one of the cd external drives but i don t want to pay extra for a case power supply i m not going to use rodney jacks rjacks austlcm sps mot com while there may not be a part number for the cd i drive i have seen a part number for the bezel kit a new front panel with the slot in it through which you insert the cd the document which i got from the announcement at our apple office states the drive kit and bezel kits are separate items and the bezel kit has an srp of fro the c the external unit may be a better deal after all bob brickman robrick erenj com disclaimer the preceding represent my personal opinions and do not reflect the opinions policies or practices of my employer
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re full page pb screen in article mfohvgq wbme yado andrew cmu edu michael t callihan mc o andrew cmu edu writes hi i am working on a project for my marketing class and i d like to ask your help the assignment is to come up with a product and create a marketing plan for it technical issues are not terribly important at this point i m not surprised to learn that technical issues are not terribly important to anyone working on a marketing plan wls
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris problem the problem is this after starting up my machine it gives a high pitched sound once at the desktop also it only does it when the mouse is up or a menu is not showing as if i click the mouse the noise goes away for the amount of time the mouse is down also this problem only happens for about minutes please let me know if you know what this is it sounds like it is coming form the power supply please post here and email me tjacobs bvsd co edu thanks
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re se rom gosh i wish people would read the postings that they are following up to in article c pmsv jtp wyvern wyvern com dashley wyvern wyvern com doug ashley writes seanmcd ac dal ca writes in article wgwc pdl y netcom com wgw netcom com william g wright writes anyway i was hoping someone knowledgeable about mac internals could set me straight is it simply impossible for a mac se to print grayscale or could to use the grayscale features i believe you need a mac equipped with colour quickdraw i was told this somewhere or other but it s i think you will find that the mac se can print grayscale images loaded with the proper software however the mac se cannot display grayscale on the original poster w g wright posted an item saying that he had bought a new wizz bang laser printer from apple a select i think which can print grayscale he then said that he cannot print grayscale from his se computer and also that all the experts he has dealt with agree that it is not possible this is the one major bugbear about doing a rd party se upgrade compared to apple s se to se upgrade you will never be able to run color quickdraw it is color quickdraw that controls color and grayscale ses can print some colour this is because quickdraw the original non colour version has the right hooks for eight colours some of you will remember the scsigraph solution to getting a colour screen for your se i think that it gave you sixteen colours by dithering or something there is no reason that apple couldn t release software patches for older computers there are lots of mac pluses classics and ses that have been upgraded to and processors which should be perfectly able to deal with color quickdraw but they wont and rd parties are having a difficult time in duplicating the mac s roms i e nutek et al just one caveat i would have thought that if you were printing a postscript grayscale image onto a postscript grayscale printer that you would be able to do so whatever mac you were using and i am pretty sure that the select is not a postscript printer correct me if i m wrong phil ryan melbourne australia
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra case source wanted hello all if anyone knows of a place to get the case to hold the power supply and motherboard of a quadra please let me know i have tried some mail order places and some local stores both groups would prefer that i part with over to get just the case in my eyes this seems about to much any comments i currently own the guts of a please email me or post to this group w info thanks in advance andy
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re accelerating the macplus also if someone would recommend another accelerator for the macplus i d like to hear about it thanks for any time and effort you expend on this karl try looking at the brainstorm accelerator for the plus i believe it is the best solution because of the performance and price why spend upgrading a computer that is only worth the brainstorm accelerator is around it speeds up the internal clock speed to mhz that may not seem like much but it also speeds up scsi transfers i think that feature is unique to brainstorm check it out david lau lau aerospace aero org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	simm vs dram can anyone tell me what the difference is between a k dram chip and a k simm i need the former i think to add memory to my laserwriter ls someone is offering to sell me k simms he removed from an se but i have a feeling this may not be the correct form of memory the sockets in the laserwriter look like they want the spidery shaped chips there are sockets each with as i recall pins arranged in two rows of believe it or not i ve never actually seen a simm help appreciated arthur greene internet arthur greene p f n z fidonet org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	voice messaging you macinators who have used these voice messaging fax data modems i have a question first what brand names do you recommend i am mostly interested in the voice messaging and fax part is the voice part as reliable and understandable as the sellers claim approximately how much hard drive space does an average day of callers take up if they speak for one minute any feed back would be appreciated my company is looking at buying one or two hey i may buy one myself too thanks in advance don don new jr dnew du edu another great mind university of denver ruined chemistry department by denver co higher education
comp.sys.mac.hardware	si clock poll final call a fair number of brave souls who upgraded their si clock oscillator have shared their experiences for this poll please send a brief message detailing your experiences with the procedure top speed attained cpu rated speed add on cards and adapters heat sinks hour of usage per day floppy disk functionality with and m floppies are especially requested i will be summarizing in the next two days so please add to the network knowledge base if you have done the clock upgrade and haven t answered this poll thanks guy kuo guykuo u washington edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	buying a high speed v everything modem just a quick summary of recent findings re high speed modems top three contenders seem to be at t paradyne zyxel and us robotics zyxel has the biggest cult following and can be had for under but i ignored it because i need something with mac software which will work without any tweaking the at t dataport earns nearly unanimous praises for reliability they are backordered at the moment probably because of the special price in effect until may its fax capabilities are worse than that of the other two modems warning at t ads say that the modem comes with a mac kit cables all and has lifetime warranty this applies only when you order directly from paradyne i called elektek one of the distributors and they wanted to charge me for cable and gave only year warranty usr sportster for the mac is also highly but not as highly recommended it s only from clubmac and if you are willing to roll your own cable and don t care about the faxstf software you can get the generic model from pc outlets for all this assuming that you don t have a rich uncle and can t afford a motorola codex i ended up ordering the dataport we ll see how it works in two weeks or so eric behr illinois state university mathematics department behr math ilstu edu or behr ilstu bitnet please avoid
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re stereo sound problem on mac games thanks steve for your helpful and informative comments on mac stereo sound too bad some developers aren t addressing the problem this did make my trusty old mac ii superior to the quadra i replaced it with in one way though thanks doug
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re jump starting a mac ii apple dealerships once had kits to replace the soldered in batteries with a battery holder real easy to install but it does require some soldering
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re whither quickdraw performance across product line in daves daves xetron com dave steele writes the fastest quickdraw color performing computer apple makes is the drumroll please lciii and the color classic ranks right up there with the quadra line the centris line pales in comparison does anybody know the differences in these computers that explains the disparity in graphics processor performance i think you are suffering from some alignment or color table or whatever problems if a color classic is as fast as a quadra rendering to screen what screen card you use does of course matter much built in video is almost always faster than nubus or you measured scroll entire screen where the color classic had a vram screen in bit color and the quadra had a bit screen on nubus cheers h jon w tte h nada kth se mac hacker deluxe this sig less than lines improve the usenet s n ratio
comp.sys.mac.hardware	eight mb ns simms ea o b o a friend of mine has eight mb ns simms for sale for each or best offer since techworks sells these puppies for ea you may want to contact him directly at steve epstein days evenings thanks bruce l from planet bmug the firstclass bbs of bmug the message contained in this posting does not in any way reflect bmug s official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitor for lciii jeff i have answers to both of your questions first i recommend the sony cpd monitor it is a trinitron vga monitor but it is designed specifically for use with the lc it works only with macs with specific video capabilities which means only the lc s and anything after the ci all it takes is a mac vga cable i recommend one from james engineering which is about these cost about as compared to the much higher prices of comparable monitors because they are not multisynch i have used one for half a year and i love it second i have used syex and found them to be decent i had a backorder on a supra modem which i cancelled they were helpful in explaining the reasons why there were delays and they had supra s number ready for me the only complaint was that they did not always return my calls i have been told that the cpd is selling for from j r s i think syex is a little more but i don t know david from planet bmug the firstclass bbs of bmug the message contained in this posting does not in any way reflect bmug s official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	k vram for sale lc or lcii i have a k vram chip for sale worked fine in my lcii and will give colors on x size screen asking i ll cover postage speaking of which does anyone know what the best way to send a chip is i have a plastic antistatic sleeve but what s the best way to send it in an envelope first class all info appreciated bill spaceman lee p o box yale station new haven ct
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re x x how do they compare the real question here in my opinion is what motorola processors running system on a mac are comparable to what intel processors running windows on a pc i recall there being a conversation here that a running windows benchmarks at about the same speed as mhz in system i don t know if that is true but i would love to hear if anyone has any technical data on this david from planet bmug the firstclass bbs of bmug the message contained in this posting does not in any way reflect bmug s official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac numbers here s a list of numbers i have compiled from other sources anybody got anything to add it s formatted for alpha and looks fine for me so don t complain if it doesn t look good to you adobe fax info aldus alladin altsys apda apple prog dev assoc apple computer apple customer non tech assistance aps alliance peripheral sys asd softwae fax berkeley systems cayman systems ce software claris claris software cl aris compatible systems computer associates c a connectix dataviz dayna deltapoint deneba dr mac fifth generation greatwave icom simulations macavenue macconnection macland macromind mac s place macwarehouse microcom microsoft educational general sales and services then punch technical assistance university shiva silicon beach symantec the mac zone chip merchant clearpoint computers clubmac clu bmac delta research labs diamond dynamic electronics etc global village telecom mac adb modems lifetime memory llb macproducts usa mac disk macproducts mac usa megabyte memory products memory international memory plus plus micro electronic tech newer technology peripheral outlet psi quadmation shecom computers sii micros south coast electronics stratum technologies technology works texas macstuf mac stuf third wave computing third wave turbo technologies directory assistance for numbers
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how to reach micron does anyone know how to reach micron i am interested in getting some specifics about what types of monitors work with their micron xceed card for the se either e mail or phone number would be prefered or if you have the answers to my questions i d appreciate a reply thanks julia hsieh my opinions are not intended to reflect hsieh ipld hac com those of hughes aircraft company
comp.sys.mac.hardware	can i remove the under my daughterboard upgrade the subject says what i would like to do here are the details i have a ke with the macrescue upgrade board that makes it the equivalent of a plus system and macenvy both identify it as such the macrescue board clips onto the on the mb it also has a itself periodically i have to remove the clip not an entirely easy thing to do and clean the legs of the larry pina s book asserts that this is occasionally a problem with snap on upgrades the s legs will oxidize causing unusual system errors well that s me so i would like to do something permanent and i think it would be fairly easy to put a socket in where the currently is and modify the macrescue board to plug in what i m not sure of is whether it will work it seems to me that the two s aren t acting independently so removing one shouldn t have any effect on the performance of my mac i m about sure will someone provide the extra erik erik cheshire oxy edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	syquest i remember someone mention about a meg syquest has anyone else heard anything about this i d be interested in the cost per megabyte and the approximate cost of the drive itself and how they compare to the bernoulli
comp.sys.mac.hardware	word printing to iig we have a user that has word and is using symbols such as pi and other mathematic sysmbols plus doing fractions etc the document shows up on the screen with no problems looks fine when she tries to print it on a iig the pi changes to an upside down caret and several other symbols change to double quotes at bottom of character plus some little circles appear between words of the fractions instead of spaces this happens on a iig laser printer tried it on serveral macs and two different iig s prints fine on an nt and ntx laser printers what s wrong thanks for any help in advance gary gary weis university computer center hal greer boulevard huntington west virginia phone fax internet gary marshall wvnet edu bitnet gary marshall ucc net gary
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra sound the quadra goes thru extensive initalize routines of its hardware read s pram obtains all info from last session including the volume setting and then executes the sound procedure for the startup sound and wait s on the scsi controller to respond to the boot up code if the dram produces an error or a registers cannot be read from a device or the device corrupts that address data or control paths then if it is possible the firmware branchs to another sound routine that produces the sad mac sound this is a general breifing of the start up procedure of a typical mac if you cannot control the volume of the quadra even at boot up then i feel there is something incorrect with the logic board my quadra does not show the problems you are having steve h
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re when is apple going to ship cd i s sunnyt coding bchs uh edu writes the cd external is already shipping and has been shipping for quite awhile now demand for the units are high so they are pretty rare hm i ve got my cd drive since i ve also heard rumors that they are bundled with a couple of cd s but i can t confirm it indeed cds are bundled with it you usually get nine cds with demos of applications games photos etc i have compiled a list of these and posted it to alt cdrom i will post an updated version of this list rsn sven
comp.sys.mac.hardware	adding vram to quadra i want to go from k to m vram on my quadra how many k simms do i need to buy is the current k soldered on the board or do i need to take out the current vram before i add more thanks wesley stuart jones wesley stuart jones jonesw res wes mot com wstuartj ecn purdue edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help ff error at power up a mac plus i m getting a sad mac icon on a black screen with the error code ff could someone please tell me what s wrong memory thanks a lot i d appreciate it infinitely nestor michelena
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pb questions well folks my mac plus finally gave up the ghost this weekend after starting life as a k way back in sooo i m in the market for a new machine a bit sooner than i intended to be i m looking into picking up a powerbook or maybe and have a bunch of questions that hopefully somebody can answer does anybody know any dirt on when the next round of powerbook introductions are expected i d heard the c was supposed to make an appearence this summer but haven t heard anymore on it and since i don t have access to macleak i was wondering if anybody out there had more info has anybody heard rumors about price drops to the powerbook line like the ones the duo s just went through recently what s the impression of the display on the i could probably swing a if i got the mb disk rather than the but i don t really have a feel for how much better the display is yea it looks great in the store but is that all wow or is it really that good could i solicit some opinions of people who use the and day to day on if its worth taking the disk size and money hit to get the active display i realize this is a real subjective question but i ve only played around with the machines in a computer store breifly and figured the opinions of somebody who actually uses the machine daily might prove helpful how well does hellcats perform thanks a bunch in advance for any info if you could email i ll post a summary news reading time is at a premium with finals just around the corner tom willis twillis ecn purdue edu purdue electrical engineering convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies f w nietzsche
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra scsi problems in article katinka fenk wau nl katinka van der linden writes i would like more info on this if anybody has it our exabyte tapedrive has never been working from the quadra we have been trying it since september replaced cabling inits i don t know what all all the industry experts we phoned the tapedrive dealer our apple dealer the software dealer all say it s our fault or they don t know the last thing they said was that we needed a special quadra scsi terminator anybody know more thanks in article apr mintaka lcs mit edu nodine lcs mit edu mark h nodine wrote in article c l p qz news udel edu johnston me udel edu bill johnston writes in article apr mintaka lcs mit edu nodine lcs mit edu mark h nodine writes i don t know about the specific problem mentioned in your message but i definitely had scsi problems between my q and my venerable jasmine megadrive cartridge drives my solution was to get silverlining none of the loops that involved blind writes worked to the drives in fact the only loop that worked was the macintosh software loop whatever that means i doubt this is a quadra specific problem i had to get rid of my venerable bernoulli last year with enough cartridges purchased at each to make the whole thing worth more than my whole computer the tech support guys at ocean microsystems suggested that some third party drivers might fix the problem in my case the cartridges wouldn t format mount partition for a ux all i know is that the megadrives worked perfectly on both my mac plus and my powerbook it was for this reason i assumed the problem had something to do with the quadra even with the quadra they mostly worked ok the problem occurred when i ejected a cartridge from a drive it would start popping up dialog boxes saying this cartridge must be formatted with jasmine driveware even though there was no cartridge in the drive mark i have been using the pli sony mo drive and now a sharp color scanner using standard scsi cables and standard terminator on my q no problems if you were using a iifx that might be another story make sure there is only one terminator in the cabling and it must be at the end some boxes have internal terminators some can be switched out and others are socketted these count if the box with internal terminations cannot be put on the end to terminate the cabling they have to be disabled ie switched out or pulled out of their sockets if you have boxes with internal terminations the terminations in one box has to be disabled etc i am sure that this has been covered by the experts my experience with scsi boxes that connect to the mac indicates that they must have some software package for the mac to talk to them my pli mo drive and sharp scanner has one for each good luck art beattie i only speak for myself
comp.sys.mac.hardware	macplus home brew acceler question ha all this talk about changing the clock speed of the q makes me ask if i replaced the mhz in my plus with a mhz with a mhz clock occilater of its own not shared by the rest of the mac just the new mhz would my mac work and if it would work would you think there where be any problems with sound vidio scsi it seems like a simple solution to keepa dead slow mechine a live a little longer oh if this would not work any idears on how to make it work thanks alex arp ritvax isc rit edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	driver i have an old jasmine drive which i cannot use with my new system my understanding is that i have to upsate the driver with a more modern one in order to gain compatability with system does anyone know of an inexpensive program to do this i have seen formatters for buit have no idea if they will work i have another ancient device this one a tape drive for which the back utility freezes the system if i try to use it the drive is a jasmine direct tape bought used for w tapes techmar mechanism essentially i have the same question as above anyone know of an inexpensive beckup utility i can use with system all help and advice appriciated
comp.sys.mac.hardware	calling all mac gurus question for those familiar with quadra vram i put k vram simms in my quadra in the slots closest to the ram simm slots and i got no results whatsoever i have been told that the built in video should support at least bit and maybe bit color on a macintosh color display however the monitors control panel still lists bit colors as the highest possible does it make any difference which slots you put the simms in do you have to do something to activate them do you have to do something to the monitors control panel btw i am running system with megs of ram charles p cox jr computer engineering case western reserve university cpc po cwru edu cox snowhite eeap cwru edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re non apple mini docks available in article c pc f n i rahul net jonathan mecca epri com writes a a deguzman deguzman after math uiuc edu wrote my boss is considering the purchase of a powerbook or duo he is leaning towards a because of the math coprocessor for mathematica but would get a duo if he could find a mini dock with a coprocessor have any third parties announced such a beast i believe that e machines might produce something of this nature yes e machines makes two mini docks the powerlink presente and the powerlink desknet the presenter offers a variety of video out options including ntsc rgb and svga it also has sound out floppy drive port and a power port unfortunately no scsi port and it blocks the serial port the desknet has the standard ports plus built in ethernet alas none of these have an fpu in the future rasterops is putting out a mini dock but the name escapes me now it is supposed to support bit color and quadra comparable video speed no idea if it has an fpu hope this helps beth corbo
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re syquest in article hydra gatech edu gt a prism gatech edu anthony s kim writes i remember someone mention about a meg syquest has anyone else heard anything about this i d be interested in the cost per megabyte and the approximate cost of the drive itself and how they compare to the bernoulli i think you must be talking about the syquest code named mesa i believe it is a winchester technology drive pretty much like the other syquest drives in terms of how it works according to the latest macleak the drive has a ms access time mb s sustained throughput these figures are from memory so they could be slightly off but they give you an idea of performance nonetheless the drive was originally released for the pc and just recently was released for the mac world don t ask me what the differences are and through they are currently in limited supply according to a syquest rep they are in the process of ramping up for mass production i have already seen them advertised by a number of manufacturers in macleak including pli massmicro clubmac and macwarehouse s poweruser the pli and massmicro units are priced at just around the lesser name brands are going for around for an external drive cartridges which hold mb sell for about each at these prices the drives and cartridges are cheaper and better performing than the mb drives cost per megabyte compares favorably with other cartridge drives and bernoulli drives but for large amounts of data optical is still cheaper and more reliable personally i m excited by the new drive and look forward to getting my hands on one chris wand egotism is the anesthetic that dulls the pain of stupidity frank leahy
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re when is apple going to ship cd i s interestingly enough the cdrom i that came with my quadra has only disks system install kodak photo cd sampler alice to ocean cdrom titles application demos mozart dissonant quartet nautilus apple chronicles has anyone else noticed that they got less than everyone seems to be getting with the external what i really feel i missed out on is what is supposed to a fantastic games demo disk i have heard that people have gotten up to disks with their drive i assume they get the titles above plus cinderella and the games demo cdrom any comments and experiences should i call apple to complain derek thewho plume mit edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re ntsc and the mac stuff deleted also i am not interested in quicktime i would merely like to use my mac as a television from time to time i have a nice sony monitor and i would like to use it as a second tv when my wife is watching sitcoms on our regular tv other stuff deleted wouldn t it be cheaper to just buy a little fourteen inch colour tv just curious george micahels jeff scott montreal que canada scott silverbullet cam org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac ibm info version send follow ups to comp sys mac advocacy sorry about the header but the pnews here does not let one easily change the headers and i gave up after a year of trying this sheet is also available by ftp on sumex aim stanford edu in the info mac report as mac ibm compare txt mac ibm info version the reason for this general data sheet is to consolidate and condense the information out there so that people in both camps can be clear and accurate about what they are saying about their machines since computer technology is always changing there are always going to be points in which the sheet will be lacking or incorrect on information so please just don t say the sheet is incomplete or incorrect but also give me clear and concise information to make the needed corrections all prices are in us dollars to keep this data sheet organized please provide if possible article citations for the information provided or corrected and keep the opinions to a minimum as this is a general data sheet keep the info provided simple so i can understand what is being talked about and can explain it to others finally keep the information relevant to the section corrected for example os code in rom is software contained in hardware so no more of the but it is supported in os disk software data for the hardware section please thank you note for proper reading off line this document should be in point monaco special thanks to andrew aardvark ucs uoknor edu chihuahua charlie andrew frip wv tek com andrew klossner bell peter yale edu peter bell bcoleman hayes com bill coleman cj andrew cmu edu carl b jabido d jwa nada kth se jon wtte ephraim think com ephraim vishniac fj andrew cmu edu faisal nameer jawdat gsidler cafe eecs nwu edu gabriel sidler julian deepthnk kiwi gen nz julian harris erick krueger um cc umich edu krueger engin umich edu matt wardsgi med yale edu matt healy mark bilpin co uk mark allerton jokim jarthur claremont edu john h kim mem jhufos pha jhu edu mel martinez nan matt ksu ksu edu nan zou pwagner us oracle com s fuller iastate edu strobl gmd de wolfgang strobl jkirvin pafosu hq af mil phill ichips intel com shaikha duvm ocs drexel edu sxjcb orca alaska edu jay c beavers lewis kawecki novell com lamont catfish rtsg mot com bradley lamont cerro mbcl rutgers edu cerro joseph a mpark utmem utmem edu mel park logullo applelink apple com jeff logullo zrai hou amoco com robert irlbeck and mikew apple com for providing some of the information that made this list possible contents cpus hardware monitor support expansion operating system os number crunching networking printing the cpus note i am only showing motorola intel cpus used in mac and most ibm pc clone machines for example since apple never used the motorola and in the mac these chips are not listed years only appear with dead cpus and indicate first to last year used as a cpu cache note both ibm and mac use caches external to the cpus these external caches increase the speed of the cpu but are not a part of it in most of the present macs there are external caches built in while with ibm they are optional though machines are generally sold with them installed since there are many different external caches cpu mac and ibm scsi video disk and static ram mac each having a different effect on cpu performance and they are machine kb static ram cache in iici iifx and iivx seller cache card installed in some iicis or expansion iici cache cards go up to kb dependent i have decided to leave them out of the list note alu is industry s de facto standard for cpu bit classification ibm alu registers external cpu features cpu bus address cache notes none none segmenting none protected mode none mmu bit protected mode sx one k fpu one k fpu dx one k doubled internal clock rate dx being demoed mhz mhz and mhz planned pentium k code cisc chip with risc like k data features issue superscalar p write back bit fpu path pipelining speed specint specfp sx chip with bit internal bit external architecture and sx chips can address to mb maximum ram sl low power v sx with built in power management used mainly on laptops slc ibm v sx with a k on chip cache added john h kim as far as john h kim knows it is only used on ibm models slc neither of two chips that have this name have a fpu cyrix basically sx in sx socket with k cache and improved integer math speed ibm equivalent to the sx except it has a k on chip cache ex for dx chip runs mhz rest of machine runs at mhz pc week pc mag the latest in a line of cisc chips pc mag samples released march but machines will not be announced until at least may pc week a cpu systems and up pc mag mac alu registers external cpu features cpu bus address cache notes none mb limit code parallel processing two mmu k burst mode lc two k fpu two k mmu fpu pipelining doubled internal clock rate development discontinued in favor of branch a better fpu target superscaler pipelining cache line bursts equivalent capabilities speeds to pentium includes data and instruction code caches the lc have built in caches for both mac designs created a mb limit the has clocks an internal processor clock pclk that is x freq of external bus clock bclk which is the one used to rate the chips bradley lamont motorola data book some compilers produce programs sensitive to the pclk and so they act as if the was a clock doubler chip but this very compiler and program dependent compliers maybe written to allow programs to take consitant advantage of the s pclk in the future as it is now studies such as one in a byte article which showed and roughly dx are very dependent on the machine os and programs tested and as such are not representative of general performance motorola claims pc week as the powerpcs are to be in both ibm and mac machines i have listed them separately to eliminate redundancy they are motorola cpu risc chips powerpc alu registers external cpu features cpu bus address cache notes mc int k speed specint fp combined specfp i d mc low power mc for desktop portable systems out by end of mc high performance mc for high end machines out by st q mc int k out by mid fp combined i d pc week pc mag select venders were sent sample mc chips by motorola pc week and some nubus boards containing early samples of powerpc have been given to apple s a list developers pc week macweek mc mhz mc mhz pc week systems with versions out by mid pc week cpus comparison list as a general rule of thumb motorola chips are faster than intel chips at the same frequency dx but intel has chips at higher frequencies than motorola so this evens out the macintosh bible th ed supports the comparisons between intel and motorola chips for the and above bit vs bit chip data path address lines data address registers the mb limit on the macs brings it down to the and lower chips otherwise it would compare to the hardware segmenting vs s bit alu and these chips come have no usable built in mmu unlike their successors the hardware segmenting s protected mode is used by os and windows x the use of the hardware segmenting and their bit nature put the between the and in features and the lc s bit data path strenghthens the comparison two bit chips with mmus and protected memory a ux is at present the only mac os to use the s protected memory feature for apps system x uses this feature to protect a ram disk created by the memory control panel but this is supported only on powerbooks and quadras the color classic and lcii bit hardware data paths makes the s in them comparative to sxs sx lc same as and without the fpu used as a low cost solution for people who do not need the fpu only with programs sensitive to pclk pipelining does the lc behave like dx fpu or a dx sx two bit microprocessors with built in fpu mmu k internal cache which is implemented as two k caches in the and one in the only with programs sensitive to pclk pipelining does the behave like a dx pentium both are planned to be superscalar but both have heat problems these chips may flounder against the cheaper pc week pc mag earlier released pc week macweek pc week less leat producing degrees f for pentium pc mag and partly ported to powerpc chips powerpc powerpc this cpu line is planned to run programs from dos windows x os and mac os on top of poweropen a ux unix and later pink taligent os by using emulators or if necessary the oses themselves in a shell a k how softpc or os does dos hardware in an effort to remove the reconfiguring the system almost every time you add something requirement for add in cards drivers video and operating systems in the ibm world intel microsoft and other hardware and software developers are working out plug and play standards pc week color support display mac mhz pixel clock standard all present macs support the use of bit color through bit color quickdraw in rom bit color quickdraw allows an almost transparent capability to display and edit x bit images in y bit color and retain all the colors of y bit color where x and y independently are or regardless of monitor resolution dpi color to dpi palettebook or monitor type including autosynchronous vga mcga and svga monitors with ranges including hz vertically and khz horizontally and only a hardware video adaptor macuser aug older machines that supported color se ii iix and iicx had only bit color in rom and needed a software patch to use bit color macuser special to keep costs down and speed up most macs have only or bit display capability built in but most of those can be expanded to display bit color presently quickdraw is optimized for dpi display quickdraw qx will change this in addition quickdraw allows in macs with a nubus slot more then one monitor to be used in any combination from two monitors showing the same thing to multiple monitors acting as one large large monitor with any degree of overlap of the pictures vram video ram standard for present non powerbook mac s handling of built in video from a bit color palette vram provided runs a bit color x display expandable to bit color or a bit x display sound output standard in all macs since the k stereo sound became standard with the se ibm even though pcs have rom bios definitions of how the operating system interacts with the video hardware nan zou the use of drivers bypassing bios video hareware inconsitancies see super vga below and nonstanderzation of clone bios have left resolution of video display hardware os and program interaction up to the os and video hardware in question faisal nameer jawdat in addition ibm and clone makers never bothered to provide a standard hardware mechanism for software to determine what display mode is actually present matt healy nor a standardized screen drawing toolbox like mac s qd as a result the os must be very well written to detect some modes especially with some third party cards or to use them consitantly at present things are so dependent on the interaction of the program os print driver and monitor card that editing bit pictures regardless of color mode os and monitor type card combination as one can do on the mac is impossible with an ibm for example one cannot edit a bit color picture done on a os with a svga monitor on a with vga bit color palette and dos and still have all the colors one started out with later ibm machines will have integrated graphics accelerators faster processors and modular upgradeability and may have built in sound cards cd rom and ethernet pc week mda monocrome display adapter original character mapped video mode no graphics x text cga color graphics array x colors or x b w color palette bad for the eyes ega enhanced graphics array x colors from color palette and some lower res some versions could run at colors bearable on the eyes vga video graphics array x at colors x at colors and some others these two are the most commonly used all modes have a k clut from a to bit ibm or a bit mac color palette mhz pixel clock mel martinez monitors use analog input incompatible with ttl signals from ega cga etc mcga multi color graphics array subset of vga that provides all the features of mda cga but lacks some ega and vga modes like vga x x dictionary of computer terms dct common on the initial ps implementation from ibm and some ps models svga super vga this is not a standard in the way the others were but instead was a catch all category for a group of video cards as such with each manufacturer using their own implementation scheme svga was chaos with people debating as to what is svga and what is not in an effort to make svga more of a standard vesa was established and is used in the newer units but things are still a mess video is either k or m today resolution of x and x at and colors are common newer ones since have the sierra hicolor ramdac giving bit colors at x some of the very newer ones can do bits per pixel usually at x speedwise too much variation some very slow western digital paradise based for example some very fast s c based for example some are so so like tseng et a very popular chipset some limiting factors overcome by mhz vl bus s linear address mapping were mhz isa bus at architecture where the cpu looks at the card through a k window etc other non svga standards a ibm s own standard interlacing graphics accelerator with graphics functions like linedraw polygon fill etc in hardware some clone implementations from ati are the fastest video available today though some clone models do not have interlacing tms high end graphics co processors usually some do bit speeds up vector oriented graphics like cad xga extended graphics array newer and faster than a only available for mca bus based ps s clones are coming out soon emulates vga ega and cga dct max resolution at x x b same as a also some bpp modes xga accelerates graphics functions up to times faster than standard vga in windows and os including line draws bit and pixel block transfers area fills masking and x y addressing has an intelligent way to detect and co exist with other xga cards so multiple desktops like on the mac may not be far away since this is an architecture its resolution and color depth isn t fixed ibm implements only bit color while other companies can have bit color through ibm technical licenses refresh rates up to hz ensures flicker free rock solid images to reduce visual discomfort and is vga compatible up to x on os some monitor types usable by mac see mac section above for specific details expansion both mac ibm scsi only external device expansion interface common to both mac and ibm allows the use of any device hard drive printer scanner nubus card expansion mac plus only some monitors and cd rom main problem there are a lot of external devices which are internal terminated which causes problems for more then two devises off the scsi port a scsi chain is supposed to be terminated only at the begining and at the end any other set up causes problems for either mac or ibm scsi devices per scsi controller bit asynchronous mb s ave and synchronous mb s max transfers difference is due to scsi software drivers fast scsi is a misname for bit scsi in scsi mode see scsi for details scsi devices per scsi controller in scsi mode scsi is fully scsi compliant and bit scsi tends to be implemented as a very fast scsi since it does not require the different controller interfaces in hardware and software that and bit scsi do transfer speeds are mb s with mb s burst bit mb s with mb s burst bit and mb s with mb s burst bit wide and fast since bit scsi can use scsi software drivers and hardware at bit scsi speeds and as such is limited to devices sometimes it is mistakenly called fast scsi bit fast scsi requires a scsi software driver and scsi electronics but can still use the scsi ports wide bit and bit scsi require a different scsi port electronics and software driver from scsi which makes them more expensive than other scsi interfaces mac scsi asynchronous scsi built in standard since the plus even though apple developed some specifications for scsi controlers the os scsi manager needs to be rewritten to take full advantage of the features of both scsi interfaces as a result present scsi macs use bit scsi as a fast asynchronous scsi presently quadras are the only macs with a scsi controller chip built in digital review oct v n p though they lack some other parts of the hardware like the wide scsi port interface since other macs require a nubus card to use scsi older nubus macs had a bottleneck due to the speed of the nubus and cpu rumor some cyclone macs june will come with a wide fast scsi port standard and have a rewritten os scsi manager ibm scsi scsi is not too wide spread yet generally not bundled with systems except as add on eisa and vesa local bus adapters avalable like the mac bit scsi is used as a very fast scsi by most controllers out there unlike the mac ibm has no exact scsi controller specifications which results in added incompatibilities for scsi mac memory expansion with a few exceptions the mac has used non parity pin bit simm memory expansion since the plus while pin bit parity simms could be used in these macs only special iicis could make use of the parity feature by convension both simm types are called pin simms the iifx used pin parity simms the lc iii c and q all use a new pin simm that is accessable by bits at a time and is used in ibms the mac does a complete memory check at startup by writing reading every memory location if something is seriously wrong with a simm the mac will not boot and give a sound chord indicating what the problem is since macs made before feb managed memory baced on data path simms had to be installed in pairs bit or in sets of bit the centris and quadra eliminate this with a new memory management setup that allows memory to be upgraded one simm at a time if the simms are the same size are used then the memory is interleaved across the two simms resulting in a performance boost on ram access macworld apr printers adbs and modems built in interfaces standard monitor interface and sound input built in on most present macs pds available in se all present non powerbook macs bit se portable lc lc ii classic line and bit operates at cpu s mhz maximum through put data path in bytes cpu s mhz q c mhz mb s q q mhz mb s standardized with the lc and bus designs with an adapter one nubus card can be used in iisi and c problem some cards have timing dependency which slows through put down nubus mac ii bit mhz bus clock to transaction bus cycle ratio and contiguous hand shake transactions at mb s theoretical peak mb s built in on all modular macs except the lc series c and performa the se could be adapted to use this and there was even a mac plus scsi nubus supports every possible expansion from cpu to ethernet to dma nubus nubus mac ii back compatable mhz bus clock avg throughput mb s burst mode mb s future card designs will be instead of the old quickring a peer to peer bus used in parallel with nubus apple s vlbus architecture is identical to that of vlbus byte burst mode mb s byte in development cpu expansion handled either through the pds or the nubus unlike pds nubus cpu cards example radius rocket allow use of multiple processors at the same time this is like having two or more macs in the same box able to dual task or joinly process depending on the card or software involved each nubus card needs its own memory but most nubus cards of this type come with mb ram simms on the card standard ibm memory expansion parity simms non parity simms some newer models do a mac like simm memory check or a dozen or so different types of memory boards hd interfaces limited to hard drives by design or lack of development mfm modified frequency modulation rll run length limited only used with smaller mb hard drives ide integrated device electronics asynchronous mb s max and synchronous mb s max transfer currently the most common standard and is mainly used for medium sized drives can have more than one hard drive esdi enhanced small device interface mb s throughput generally considered better interface than scsi in many ways but not common enough for practical consideration outside of hard drives device choices are very limited compared to scsi bus interfaces new plug and play isa and eisa compatable cards may have problems working with old cards infoworld pc week vaporware isa bit interfaces common has bit data path limit which produces a mb limit for which there are software workarounds pc mag mb s byte uses edge triggered interrupts can t share them hence comes the irq conflict limited busmastering capabilities some cards aren t bandwidth limited com ports lpt ports game ports midi card etc while others are video and disk controllers dominant factor but it s showing its age most isa motherboard designs are bit pc world feb mca micro channel ibm s and bit bus allows use of more than one cpu in a computer dct and anything can talk to anything as fast as the two components involved can handle it never took off because it was incompatible with isa and eisa planned to be bus interface of ibm powerpc carl jabido eisa nubus mac ii is closest mac equivalent bit mhz burst mode mb s it also has the ability to self configure cards like mca and allows multiple bus masters sharable interrupt and dma channels and multiple cpu use vesa local bus vlb sometimes mistakenly refereed to as pds local bus standard runs at cpu clock rate burst modes mb s bit mb s bit byte limited to three slots but allows bus mastering and will coexist with either isa or eisa consitered ideal for video and disk i o dell has filled a claim that this violates one of their patents mel martinez quickring apple s faster mb s burst version of vlb architecture byte might show up in some ibm and powerpc machines byte in development pci intel s version of local bus that is intended to totally replace isa eisa mca in development oses assumes full installation print drivers fonts multifinder etc and multiple application use mac k to mb of os and hardware commands have been put into rom this allows apple to control its machine by putting key hooks for the mac os quickdraw menu commands print mouse scsi sound drivers etc in rom which require clone makers to use the rom chip or read rom on to disks which requires access to the proper mac since different macs have slightly different rom chips plus vs classic for example with key hooks for the os support interface in rom programers do not have to worry as much whether the disk os has the necessary hardware commands or that those commands are consitant and therefore can write smaller programs this also allows apple greater control over hardware software standards and that the disk os can be smaller and with some of the tookbox command code in rom with lower ram requirements then a totally disk based os macs use masked rom which is as fast as dram jon wtte single program usage base requirements mb and dd floppy cooperatively multitasking base requirements mb and hd floppy features a gui cooperative multitasker multifinder standard program interface standard stereo sound support snd network receiving part of appleshare software is bundled with the os has a mb ram barrier and is a bit os some third party products allow mb of virtual memory as long as real ram is below mb with print drivers l system for some macs that require system x x base requirements mb mb hard drive and de facto standard to run all features well mb mb hard drive and lowest present non portable mac configuration using up to mb this is everything on system disks of hard disk space this has features plus program linking within and between computers iac built in server capabilities filesharing can be used by older oses using appleshare client software and can be accessed by macs max is more speed practical iac requires x virtual memory in machines with mmu times real ram for least noticeable iisi speed degradation drag and drop quicktime built in truetype support supports sound input aiff and snd formats for most present machines can access up to gb of true ram and gb of virtual memory and is both a and bit os to use real ram beyond mb it must be in bit mode and on older machines requires the mode extension apple s last free os with worldscript support speedier and less ram usage than dot macweek pc week to run in bit mode on older machines it requires the mode or bit enabler extension marks the start of apple saling its mac os instead of allowing free upgrades bundled with new machines for x upgrades otherwise the installer has a bug that when upgrading it may keep some old system fonts from the previous system inside the system file this can eat up any ram benefits and cause other problems apple itself recommends removing all fonts from the system file a ux unix needs mb ram mb suggested mb hard drive and a or equivalent to run this bit preemptive multitasking os is large due to being unix and needing translators between it and the mac roms price note sound output was supported in oses to by many formats including the following snd wave asnd fssd qssn smsd soun dc d and dcfl in the sound manager was optimized for the sound standards snd and aiff which causes some playback problems for the old formats though most still play ibm machiness have little gui code data and hooks present in hardware for programmers to work with so most of the coding must be provided in the os since hard disks were slow the disk os code is read into ram in addition what little rom code there is also read into ram a process called shadow rom this results in faster implementation since ram is faster then proms or eproms having most of the os code on disk has the advantage of being able to better optimize the code given a certain piece or collection of hardware which is harder with a rom based system due to the patches needed in addition it reduces the need for and size of patches if a major revision of the hardware support is needed side note the ftc charged that microsoft formed a os trust by not providing all feature documentation for its oses to developers outside ms and designing its windows and dos apps to fail under os undocumented windows and there is deliberate code in windows nt beta which causes the install to abort if os boot manager is present gregory hicks info ibmpc digest v due to a conflict of intrest by one member the vote of the ftc judicial council for action against microsoft was a tie which resulted in no action rumors the ftc will presue the matter likely to the point of choosing a new member or whole new council in addition the government has turned down microsoft s copyright of windows which would allow it to charge a fee for developers using their hooks pc week microsoft oses dos has a k barrier with its own memory manager a mb barrier with third party memory managers this bit os requires that each program must provide its own print drivers and be bit programs need to be dos protected mode interface dpmi compliant and running on a dx bit protected mode to break these barriers contains the gui shell present in dos dos dos with the added features of a built in file compresion disk defragmenter debugger for the config sys file it needs a module for networking cost through after that byte april dos bit dos in development pc week window runs on top of dos breaks k and m barriers but still has to deal with dos file structure base requirements mb floppy and to run well mb hard drive sx and fast display adapter bit has the equivalent of mac s qd called windows gdi graphics device interface this does not have a consistent application interface like early mac programs nor a very large program base compared to dos and still tends to slow the machine down info ibmpc digest v with speed is more dependent on the display adapter then on the cpu bill coleman window programs tend to be disk and memory hogs compared to their dos counterparts byte april window a faster version of window with better memory managment base requirements mb hard drive and a to run well mb hard drive sx apple plans to release its print drivers for this pc week windows for workgroups to run well mb ram and dx pc world feb intermediary between win and windows nt it is basically windows with built in peer to peer networking support windows nt beta release takes about mb of disk space including the swap file and mb ram betas are notorious for ram usage especially in the interaction between debuging code and program compliers hence the reports of mb requirements released version supposed to need mb ram but gates himself now recommends mb ram pc week this bit os has protected mode multitasking multithreading symmetric multiprocessing a recoverable file system and bit gdi has built in networking that is osf dce compliant and can handle up to gb of ram even though some people see a july release date infoworld nov rumor is that the final version will not be available before oct infoworld may july vaporware or th quarter pc week windows upgrades will be otherwise pc week other oses pc dos ibm s version of dos it runs windows much faster then dos due to faster file i o and video handling infoworld feb dr dos same as dos with some extras like built in data compression and memory management enhancements still has k mb barrier a later version novell dos of this may use a version of the mac finder and apple file management system pc week infoworld dec os unix like features and unix like requirements mb ram mb uses mb hard drive and dx cpu this bit multithreaded multitasking os can address up to gb of ram but has to use a fast swap file to use more than mb ram on isa systems using dma direct memory access ibm plans to use taligent s oops in future versions of this infoworld oct aix ibm s unix system planned to be a subset of poweropen and taligent os nextstep gui unix to provide next features on ibm machines beta out final version to be out by may solaris os for x a sunsoft port a bit os with symmetric multiprocessing and multithreading built in networking capabilities with tools to allow remote configuring and adminstration features and communication package client users server s users server developer kits software hardware mac working name star trek apple had system running off intel chips and is looking at making a version available for ibm computerworld nov macweek at present this is planned to run on top of novell s dr dos require a or equivalent to run and that apps will need to be recompiled macweek viewed as novell s answer to windows nt the complexity of pc hardware set ups is one reason for slow progress this seems to apple ibm s way of leading to the powerpc line out in late early and pink os in late early powerpc rumor ibm will build its powerpc by late infoworld june macweek pc week it will have microchannel bus and xga video carl b jabido and will run native version aix and mac apps pc week there have been no comments on compatablity of dos or windows apps apple s powerpc machine tesseract is planned to be out jan and to have mc mhz mb ram a mbyte floppy drive and expected to sale near lc line prices down from projections of macuser macweek poweropen a ux a bit preemtive multitasking os planned to run on powerpcs and macs macweek intel compatibility uncertain see mac above planned base requirements mb ram mb hard drive macweek rumor ahead of schedule could be out by mid rumor this could be the os for ibm s powerpc which is due by late pink taligent os expecting delivery in wall street journal and may have some parts shipping in os and aix in and mac os and poweropen with the powerpcs macweek windows nt possible port macweek see ibm os section for details solaris os version of this sun microsystems inc unix os to run on the power pcs in macweek one of the few oses to directly state that it will run windows dos programs ibm os section for details nextstep possible port see ibm os section for details os number crunching mel park mac arithmetic is done in a consistent numerical environment sane or standard apple numerics environment floating point numbers are bits long when an fpu is present and bits otherwise exceptions such as dividing by zero or taking the square root of a negative number do not cause an abort but are handled in a logically consistent manner produces the internal representation for infinity inf produces zero the above treatment of occurs in an fpu equipped machine even when sane is bypassed and the fpu programmed directly ibm floating point numbers are bits with a hardware fpu bits when emulated the way they are handled is dependent on the coding of whatever compiler or assembler was used for a program on older dos complilers exceptions could cause program aborts and would abort to the dos prompt at the point where they occured most present compilers handle this better result there is little consistent handling of numbers between dos windows and os programs nor between programs for just one os networking includes printing wysiwyg printing can be a problem with either mac of ibm machines especially if one sends truetype fonts to a older style postscript printer mac hardware built in localtalk network port and a built in printer port localtalk has moderate speeds kb s requires special connectors for each machine and up and can be run off of either the printer port to include very old macs or the network port standard today built in ethernet is becoming common but many older macs require a pds or nubus card at about for each machine these cards provide three connectors and transceivers thick thin and baset for ethernet the macintosh quadra family and some centris models includes ethernet interface on motherboard with transceivers available tokenring has been a network option since software appletalk the suite of protocols standard with mac os which can use variety of media types appleshare client software included with the os as well and can connect to file servers such as novell netware com open banyan vines dec pathworks apple s appleshare servers system file sharing machines and afp servers running on variety of unix hosts mactcp allows typical tcp ip communications telnet ftp nfs rlogin a later version will have unix x open transport interface xti built in by the end of macweek third party software to connect to nfs servers dec pathworks provides decnet support peer to peer file sharing software built in to system see os section full server software is extra printing requires connection of the printer and the printer being selected in the chooser changing printers is by selecting a different name in the chooser the same is true of connecting to servers printing bugs monaco truetype font is different then the screen bitmap font quickdraw qx is suppossed to fix this and similar problems ibm hardware localtalk not widely used ethernet and tokenring software novell netware banyan vines decnet windows work groups appletalk protocols and appleshare subset of appletalk each of the ms dos networking schemes are in general totally incompatible with the others once you have chosen one you are pretty much locked in to that product line from then on windows work groups is a little more forgiving and removes some of this problem novell netware is the biggest percent of the corporate market and in general is more powerful and offers better control management security than appleshare but it s also more complex to set up and manage this will change due to the use of the mac finder and file management system by novell pc week infoworld dec macweek printing very os dependent dos if it s a single user then you plug the printer into the parallel port and don t worry about it tweeking may be needed with poorly written software network printing is not controlled by the system but is mostly implemented by the actual program therefore performance varies from one software program to the next windows x supports standard drivers and can do a good job of showing jobs in the print queue but it always lists printers as active even if they are not this becomes a problem if there are several incompatible printers on the same net because there s no way for software to reliably determine which printer is active right now windows for workgroups is more mac like and intelligent about this os mac like the os deals with printers with apps making calls to the os printing bugs due to poor programing some programs for all the above oses do not have wysiwyg printing this is the fault of the programs in question and not that of the os involved price issue this is very dynamic with mac providing more build in features than ibm and ibm being more get only what you need then mac and price wars by both worlds the ibm machines modualar nature prevents any kind of true hardware standarization which in turn requires oses and programs to be very complex to handle all the variation in hardware when one adds all the standard mac hardware features to an ibm built in input output sound support scsi pds built in monitor support built in networking standard mouse interface and nubus in higher machines the mac tends to be cheaper then an equivalent equipted ibm machine especially since some ibm monitors can be used with macs which cuts some more of the mac s cost macuser aug some prices using some of the info in this sheet and macuser april all macs below come with a pds slot vram and scsi built in except where noted monitor is extra and a built in monitor interface is provided no card needed except for bit color display ibm planned a slc mhz model with a mb hard drive and color vga monitor vram macweek sounds like a color classic without scsi sound support built in network support fpu socket built in expansion to bit color etc color classic mhz with bit data bus sx mhz equivalent fpu socket and built in monitor lciii mhz dx mhz equivalent and centris lc mhz depending on the program sx or dx sx mhz equivalent built in ethernet i cd rom a pds nubus slot and vram for bit color centris mhz depending on the program dx mhz or dx mhz equivalent with a pds and nubus slots ethernet ethernet ethernet cd rom vram for bit color bibliography notes vaporware is available in the digest vapor directory by ftp on sumex aim stanford edu and was by murphy sewall last issue april info ibmpc digest back issues are available from wsmr simtel army mil in directory pd archives ibmpc dictionary of computer terms rd ed isbm these are the facts as they were known to me on and may be changed by new developments announcements or corrections corrections to the information are welcome please email corrections to compuserve id aol bruceg internet bgrubb dante nmsu edu final note since there is no comp sys ibm pc advocacy group this has been posted to the closest relevent groups comp os ms windows advocacy comp os os advocacy and comp sys ibm pc misc also since some mac vs ibm articles have been showing up in comp sys mac hardware i have included that newsgroup in the posting don t site the comp sys mac faq as a reason not to post to comp sys mac hardware since the faq itself does not follow internet guidelines especially the de facto all the faqs for a newgroup hierarchy should be posted to all newsgroups in the hierarchy standard eliminate the impossible and what ever remains no matter how improbable is the truth sir arthur conan doyle through sherlock holmes in the adventure of the beryl coronet the adventure of the blanched soldier sign of four and the adventure of the bruce partington plans the computer is your friend parinoia rpg
comp.sys.mac.hardware	hi could i join hi does anybody known how much about to buy an ethernet card for mac se besides where do i goto buy if i buy it by mail order which brand is suitable for mac se the network is coxial wire thanks a lot could anybody tell me what to do thank you
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re re quadra scsi problems in article c l p qz news udel edu johnston me udel edu bill johnston writes in article apr mintaka lcs mit edu nodine lcs mit edu mark h nodine writes i don t know about the specific problem mentioned in your message but i definitely had scsi problems between my q and my venerable jasmine megadrive cartridge drives my solution was to get silverlining none of the loops that involved blind writes worked to the drives op that worked was the macintosh software loop whatever that means i doubt this is a quadra specific problem i had to get rid of my venerable bernoulli last year with enough cartridges purchased at each to make the whole thing worth more than my whole computer the tech support guys at ocean microsystems suggested that some third party drivers might fix the problem in my case the cartridges wouldn t format mount partition for a ux hat the megadrives worked perfectly on both my mac plus and my powerbook it was for this reason i assumed the problem had something to do with the quadra even with the quadra they mostly worked ok the problem occurred when i ejected a cartridge from a drive it would start popping up dialog boxes saying this cartridge must be formatted with jasmine driveware even though there was no cartridge in the drive mark t to format i have this confirmed from apple computer in sweden i work for a apple dealer as a service tech we had problems that quadras wanted to format a diskette or a syquest when ther was nothing in the drive this problem was fixed sytem mikael fredriksson email mikael fredriksson macexchange se mac exchange bbs pl s lindome sweden bbs lines fax fido disclaimer mac exchange bbs cannot be held responsible for the contents of this message
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re x x how do they compare rvenkate ux cso uiuc edu ravikuma venkateswar writes ray netcom com ray fischer writes how about some numbers here some kind of benchmark benchmarks are for marketing dweebs and cpu envy ok if it will make you happy the is faster than the bfd both architectures are nearing then end of their lifetimes and especially with the x architecture good riddance besides for wait state performance you d need a cache anyway i mean who uses a processor that runs at the speed of ns simms note that this memory speed corresponds to a clock speed of mhz the point being the processor speed is only one of many aspects of a computers performance clock speed processor memory speed cpu architecture i o systems even the application program all contribute to the overall system performance and roughly the is twice as fast at a given clock speed as is the numbers look them up yourself ray fischer convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth ray netcom com than lies friedrich nietzsche
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re x x how do they compare d jwa hemul nada kth se jon wtte writes but the interesting comparision is how fast clock cycle chips you can get an alpha is way slow at mhz but blazes at mhz the only problem is going to be finding someone who can make a mhz computer system could be tough ray fischer convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth ray netcom com than lies friedrich nietzsche
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re can you share one monitor w cpus bm cleveland freenet edu david kantrowitz writes i have a centris want to get an ibm machine as well to save space on my desk i would like to use one monitor for both with a switch box does anyone know of a way to do this sure buy a switch box and a multisync monitor i have just that arrangement on my desk and it works fine ray fischer convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth ray netcom com than lies friedrich nietzsche
comp.sys.mac.hardware	sound recording on mac portable answer or lead whatever equipment will work on a mac plus or a mac se will work fine on a mac portable it doesn t have a sound input but there is equipment that works fine with those models mentioned in macuser macworld gene jackatak raider net gene wright jackatak raider net
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re calling all mac gurus in article qvs t q f usenet ins cwru edu charles p cox jr cox snowhite eeap cwru edu writes question for those familiar with quadra vram i put k vram simms in my quadra in the slots closest to the ram simm slots and i got no results whatsoever i have been told that the built in video should support at least bit and maybe bit color on a macintosh color display however the monitors control panel still lists bit colors as the highest possible the q will only do bit or bit color if you want the higher color depth it s mb s of vram altogether for a monitor up to for a monitor you can get bit max hope this answers your questions james wang
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re q at mhz it s fine in article apr informatik tu muenchen de menes informatik tu muenchen de rainer menes writes i wonder why nobody has ever tried to replace the oscilator only like on a mac iisi i have had my q running with a mhz osc for a few months i have a number of scsi devices connected quantum lp maxtor toshiba mk f via emulex adapter pioneer drm and have had no trouble i am using the stock cooling facilities i considered adding a fan heat pump but don t feel they are necessary for my box anyway i have a temp meter on order and plan to do some measurements when it arrives in a few weeks email me if you want to see the results james macphail jmacphai cue bc ca on bounce try james mirg phy queensu ca
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help newly installed falcon bombs my se crashed internal hd help i just received my falcon upgrade from spectrum holobyte today my se is running sys with mb of ram like the instructions said i only installed disk the program no start up screen or music i just downloaded macsbug from ftp apple com like it said and installed it in my system folder i restarted the mac an hour later and it wouldn t completely boot off the internal hd i get the happy mac then it disappears only to reappear and repeat the cycle continuously i never even get the welcome to macintosh message norton utilities fixed about new problems but the same thing still happened what do i do please e mail to orly aludra usc edu thanks in advance victor orly victor r orly try to imagine all life as you know it aka mr nitro plastique stopping instantaneously and every molecule univ of southern california in your body exploding at the speed of light internet orly aludra usc edu egon spengler from ghostbusters
comp.sys.mac.hardware	serial line connection between duo and pc in article almaden ibm com petrack vnet ibm com writes i have tried almost everything under the sun to get a null modem connection between a mac duo and a pc i have used mackermit and versaterm on the mac side i have used procomm kermit and softerm on os on the pc or ps side i have used non hardware handshaking and hardware ahdshaking cables and know my hands are shaking from the effort nothing has allowed file transfers from the mac to the ps could i hear from someone attesting that they can really pump information out the serial port of a duo fast like via a modem or via a sys ex dump could anyone with a duo help me out i am going absolutely insane i wanna know if the problem is my duo or all duo s or all duos or just me hmmm sounds vaguely similar to a problem i had a long time ago when i was trying to use kermit i was building a serial connection between my duo and my next i think the problem was in the handshaking basically you need to make sure that the handshaking protocol is the same on both sides a safe place to start is by selecting no handshaking on either end one problem is that the zilog serial chip seems to get permanently wedged if you talk to it wrong and only a reset will clear it i don t know the specifics but this could be a nonlinearity that screws up your attempts at debugging the system it could very well be that you are doing things right eventually but one wrong move like trying a bad handshaking protocol can screw up any further correct actions until the next machine reset i have wedged my mac and also my next that way now i can send files back and forth between the duo and the next without any problem and at pretty high speeds too i don t know what kind of chip the pc uses but i think the zilog is pretty standard hope this helps avery
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re using setwutime with a pb aep world std com andrew e page writes i can get the mac to go to sleep but i can t make seem to make it wake up with setwutime the powerbook hardware doesn t have a wakeup timer nor does the the mac portable had one and i think the powerbook had one i don t know about the newer powerbooks but i kind of doubt it i got bit by this too and it took my a while rooting around on the developer cd before i found this out steve folta folta well sf ca us
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra scsi problems attention mac quadra owners many storage industry experts have concluded that mac quadras suffer from timing irregularities deviating from the standard scsi specification this results in silent corruption of data when used with some devices including ultra modern devices although i will not name the devices since it is not their fault an example would be a sony inch mo without the special mac compatible firmware installed one solution sometimes is to disable blind writes to the best of my knowledge there aren t any problems with quadras and blind transfers trouble with blind transfers usually means the programmer screwed up the tibs or didn t test their driver with the device in question well designed tibs poll or loop at every point where delays of sec occur this usually occurs at the first byte of each block of a transfer but some devices can hiccup in the middle of blocks if this happens in the middle of a blind transfer there is the possibility of losing or gaining a byte depending on which direction the tranfer was going in anycase the scsi manager will eventually return a phase error at the end of the transaction because it is out of sync actual data loss would only occur if the driver didn t pay attention to the errors coming back note that this effect is not caused by anything actually on the scsi bus but rather by the transfer loops inside the scsi manager the problem occurs when the processor bus errors trying to access the scsi chip when the next byte hasn t been clocked yet also note that the bus error is dealt with by a bus error handler and doesn t crash the machine clinton bauder apple computer
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re simm vs dram arthur greene p f n z fidonet org arthur greene writes can anyone tell me what the difference is between a k dram chip and a k simm i need the former i think to add memory to my laserwriter ls someone is offering to sell me k simms he removed from an se but i have a feeling this may not be the correct form of memory the sockets in the laserwriter look like they want the spidery shaped chips there are sockets each with as i recall pins arranged in two rows of believe it or not i ve never actually seen a simm help appreciated a simm is a small pcb with dram chips soldered on maarten in real life maarten carels computer science department university of amsterdam email maarten fwi uva nl
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re q at mhz it s fine i have had my q running with a mhz osc for a few months i have a number of scsi devices connected quantum lp maxtor toshiba mk f via emulex adapter pioneer drm and have had no trouble is this being done with the motherboard s scsi interface if this is possible then a bit of experimenting with just plain old clock oscillators may be in order give us some more details please the mad clock chipper in seattle guykuo u washington edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	half page hand scanners is anyone out there using a greyscale handscanner i m thinking about buying one is the inexpensive logitech pretty good i don t need super high quality scans but want it to be worth the thanks in advance mike charles
comp.sys.mac.hardware	deskwriter drivers how to install i recently upgraded to system and now i also upgraded my deskwriter drivers from to i got the software from sumex but it is not clear to me where to install what can someone tell me which of the files that come with dw go where and for what purpose what can be left out for instance if you don t want to do background printing thanks tom internet wstomv win tue nl eindhoven university of technology voice dept of mathematics computing science fax po box nl mb eindhoven netherlands
comp.sys.mac.hardware	asynch to synch on the mac does anyone have any good code to drive the serial port in syncronos mode i really need it bad tia abravo mondrian csufres edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	why the drive speeds differ hi all i just got a la cie meg external hard drive speed tests show that it s substantially faster that my internal meg quantum hd supposedly the and the both lps drives are roughly rated the same speed why such a large difference marc marc matteo applelink matteo california state university internet mmatteo mondrian csufresno edu fresno aol m matteo
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re half page hand scanners the logitech scanman is a nice unit compact and effective it will bring in graphics with surprisingly good quality note that its effective resolution in grey scale mode is only about dpi if you don t intend to magnify a graphic it works fine a true level gray scanner would work better for images i ve seen the scanman go for as little as used it is a reasonable buy at that price higher end hand scanners are almost as expensive as used flat bed scanners here is seattle the paper shows occasional good bargains in the classifieds used color flat beds have been seen as lows as lately grey scale flatbeds come in around
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re monitor shut down on hi res just my luck i did however call my local apple dealer and he said that the he thinks the serial numbers of the machines that are covered begin with either or and maybe one other he also told me that apple had extended the service on these serial numbers for another year so there is still hope get those monitor in jeffh ludwig cc uoregon edu jeff hite writes in article apr guvax acc georgetown edu hew guvax acc georgetown edu writes there is a defect in the hi res monitors bring it to a dealer and they will replace the flyback for free i think i just heard of this problem at work today and we are fixing them for free o r r the service notice on the hi res monitors expired after this date apple will not reimburse service providers for the fix replacement of the hi voltage capacitor all you folks that have been putting up with intermittant shutdowns without getting it to your service provider missed out on the freebie it was in force for a year if you got it free after you got a deal jeff hite computing center u of oregon jeffh ludwig cc uoregon edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re q at mhz it s fine in article lee husc harvard edu lee husc harvard edu patrick lee wrote menes informatik tu muenchen de rainer menes writes i wonder why nobody has ever tried to replace the oscilator only like on a mac iisi as i understand the newer variable speed overdrive is only hardware and alittle init which is use to adjust the speed my idear is to replace the cristal oscilator wit h a socket and than i can change the oscilator very easy this will be alot cheaper the the newer variable speed overdrive i would gues only to are need to do the upgrade does someone on the net ever tried this variant of speeding up the quadra in the may issue of c t magazine was an article about upgrading models of apple they simply change crystals and add a fan hammerhead centris was able to work with mhz cooler prefered and for dm you get an mhz which works with the appropriate crystal at full speed extra cooling required centris like quadra with extra cooling mhz works on most machines and for real power enthusiasts they used a quadra at mhz wow but for better description you should get this issue of c t a german pc magazine christian bauer bauer informatik uni ulm de
comp.sys.mac.hardware	hard disk error hi there when i run disk first aid on my external hard drive quantum lps i get the followinf message error missing thread record tarid tarblock disk first aid is not able to fix this problem norton utils doesn t find it at all when i use norton disk editor to look at tarblock i can read something like dirreservedarea my question how can i get rid of this error without reformatting of course michael kemper university of kaiserslautern germany email kemper rhrk uni kl de although they gave me that email address this is not the opinion of rhrk uni kl or de
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re when is apple going to ship cd i s note that if you get the external cd for your centris or q you will miss out on the sound mixing feature unless you are willing to run a wire from the motherboard sound input connector to the stereo output on the cd connecting to the sound input port on the back of the computer won t do unless you can live with mono
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re x x how do they compare in rayc rpxb ak netcom com ray netcom com ray fischer writes but the interesting comparision is how fast clock cycle chips you can get an alpha is way slow at mhz but blazes at mhz the only problem is going to be finding someone who can make a mhz computer system could be tough you can order one from digital today cheers h jon w tte h nada kth se mac hacker deluxe i don t fear death it s dying that scares me
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re se rom in apr mrl dsto gov au ryanph mrl dsto gov au writes there is no reason that apple couldn t release software patches for older computers there are lots of mac pluses classics and ses that have been upgraded to and processors which should be perfectly able to deal with color quickdraw but they wont and rd parties are having a difficult there is one reason market size the market size for color quickdraw for accellerated plusses and ses which don t go beyond mb anyway is just too small the extra cost would belike and with that money you can buy a color classic instead cheers h jon w tte h nada kth se mac hacker deluxe i don t fear death it s dying that scares me
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re ethernet card that uses a rose in article aaron bratcher fpm mac uchicago edu aaron bratcher fpm uchicago edu aaron bratcher writes does anyone know if there is an ethernet card that takes advantage of the a rose extension hey what does the a rose extension do anyway michael michael antolovich in wagga wagga a great place to be be mantolovich csu edu au or antolovich zac riv csu edu au
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re torx t screwdriver in article c j k o austin ibm com login austin ibm com writes a while ago when i owned a plus and wanted to upgrade its memory i just ordered the toolkit from macwarehouse for something like it included an anti static wrist strap the clamp used to split the clamshell case and the torx screwdriver they might not be selling it anymore but give em and any other company that sells memory upgrades suitable for a plus style box a call i ll bet that they still offer the kit next day air is usually the shipping method used too i m told that some of these companies often sell a plastic throw away after one use version of the torx driver so ask before you buy michael michael antolovich in wagga wagga a great place to be be mantolovich csu edu au or antolovich zac riv csu edu au
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra clock chipping works after reading reports from germany of success in accelerating a quadra or centris simply by changing the clock oscillator i decided to test the claim i pulled out my variable speed overdrive and the motherboard s mhz clock chip i put a socket in the clock s place and inserted a mhz ttl clock oscillator i had left over from working on some si s i can t believe it it actually works i m not getting scsi timing errors either this is only after a short run time but i ll keep posting results did i spend all that money on the vso for nothing if this keeps working the lack of a double boot in itself will be worth the effort guy kuo guykuo u washington edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	versatec plotter ppd hello world does anyone know of a postscript ppd for a versatec a size plotter which is generally accessed via a zeh postscript interpreter replies by e mail very gratefully received this is proving to be quite a tricky one andrew d nielsen internet anielsen dialix oz au advanced systems consultant applelink aust applecentre perth adelaide tce tel perth wa australia fax any opinions expressed are my own not those of my employer
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re quadra startup w out monitor ya right shawn fitzgerald chungkuo umcc umcc umich edu wrote is there a fix for this we have a quadra that will not finish startup unless there is a monitor connected this would be no problem but since we re running it as a file server there is no need to have a monitor connected all the time i ve seen a control panel made for this i don t remember the name where i saw it or on what quadra models it will work but i do know it exists mats mats bredell mats bredell udac uu se uppsala university computing center udac ph department of medical systems fax sweden think straight be gay
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re simm vs dram in article bd f f zeus ieee org arthur greene arthur greene p f n z fidonet org writes can anyone tell me what the difference is between a k dram chip and a k simm i need the former i think to add memory to my laserwriter ls someone is offering to sell me k simms he removed from an se but i have a feeling this may not be the correct form of memory the sockets in the laserwriter look like they want the spidery shaped chips there are sockets each with as i recall pins arranged in two rows of believe it or not i ve never actually seen a simm help appreciated a k dram chip is a kilobit chip whereas a k simm is a kilobyte memory module the simm is a pcb with a pin connector edge and on the simm are kilobit dram chips making the total memory kbytes you are correct assuming that simms will not fit into a laserwriter apple printers either require pin simms like those in the mac iifx or special memory chips contact your apple dealer to find out exactly what kind of chips you need peter hansen bell northern research pgmoffc bnr ca
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re pin simms where in article qulhsinnm charnel ecst csuchico edu steven medley smedley ecst csuchico edu writes i am looking for a meg pin simm for my centris where is the best place to purchase one stock shipping warrenty and if possible phone numbers so that i can order one as soon as possible try goldstar they make them and they are available immediately in mac configurations i ordered a pair from computerland meg variety and they work like a charm i ve had them for two weeks peter hansen bell northern research pgmoffc bnr ca
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re buying a high speed v everything modem in article apr rs cmp ilstu edu behr math ilstu edu eric behr writes the at t dataport earns nearly unanimous praises for reliability they are backordered at the moment probably because of the special price in effect until may its fax capabilities are worse than that of the other two modems warning at t ads say that the modem comes with a mac kit cables all and has lifetime warranty this applies only when you order directly from paradyne i called elektek one of the distributors and they wanted to charge me for cable and gave only year warranty hmm i don t know where this information concerning the cable and the warranty came from but i ordered mine from logos communications near cleveland and inside was a mac cable with the correct pin connections and a lifetime warranty the whole package was assembled at at t paradyne and every piece the serial cable the telephone cable etc had at t part numbers on them except the quicklink software package and the compuserve intro kit eric behr illinois state university mathematics department behr math ilstu edu or behr ilstu bitnet please avoid if anyone s interested logos number is i ordered mine last wednesday and got my modem on friday though it s not to far from cleveland to pittsburgh on the down side they only ship ups cod chris christopher p dingman electrical and computer eng dept dingman ece cmu edu carnegie mellon university forbes ave pittsburgh pa
comp.sys.mac.hardware	apple giong brighter my apple rgb monitor has over the past few months gone brighter and brighter and the colors are not as rich as before has anyone out there encountered a similar problem dows anyone happen to know what this problem may be due to
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re setwutime works on a pb i have tested this on a and it does work there so it would seem that the and are out though one way to tell is to go and open the powerbook control panel there is a setting there that allows you to set the time to wake up the mac if it is present when you open the control panel then you can assume that setwutime will work andrew e page warrior poet decision and effort the archer and arrow mac consultant the difference between what we are macintosh and dsp technology and what we want to be
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re half page hand scanners i have a lightening scan pro hand scanner it came with scanning editing software ocr software and some plug in modules for photoshop et al the scanner was a tad on the pricey side but the scans are incredibly accurate in level dpi grayscale it also has dithered and line art settings when grayscale isn t desired great scanning software easy to use i frequently write letters to my neices and spontaneouly include a scanned image in the note hope this helps
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re cache card for iisi as of last week mac s place had the applied engineering quicksilver card k cache one pds slot socket for fpu on sale for without fpu regular price is no idea if this is still going on but i can get the phone no if anyone is interested i found their ad in macuser can some people with cache cards please post speedometer numbers they get with the cards i have only one report which seems to indicate that a k cache card gives you only about a speedup access to memory takes longer when you have a cache card and get a miss thus a small cache card of k may be worth i don t know what kind of numbers k cards get you also i found it interesting that you can disable the cache cards via software read about it in the mac iisi tech notes from ftp apple com so is a good deal or not i still don t know
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re drivers for cd rom sakelley jeeves ucsd edu scott kelley writes does anybody know where i could find a driver for a future echo infomasster sic cde cd rom drive a friend is running this drive off of a pc and would like to use it on the mac here are some contacts for generic cd rom drivers optical access international west cummings park suite woburn ma fax applelink oai fwb inc polk street suite san francisco ca fax applelink fwb optical media international knowles drive los gatos ca fax applelink omi trantor systems for intel architecture machines randall place fremont ca applelink trantor software architects not verified north creek parkway n suite bothell wa applelink softarch dev casa blanca works not verified applelink cbworks to send a message to someone on applelink use the form address applelink apple com where address is replaced by the appropriate applelink address brian bechtel blob apple com my opinion not apple s
comp.sys.mac.hardware	kb vram simms hi there could some kind soul tell me what is the price of lc iivi iivx compatible kb vram simms in the us nowadays the price over here finland is so ridiculously high about each in usd that i think it is worth the trouble to try to get them overseas thanks jartsu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re how long do ram simm s last doesn t a mb simm have about moving flip flops they don t move to anybody much bigger than an electron and they re more like x x charging discharging capacitors in a dram simm anthony d saxton elenay creations
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re iisi question the si has a single expansion slot that can be either pds or nubus but not both together the card lies parallel to and above the motherboard hd and requires an adaptor slot to do this there are nubus and pds adaptort cards thus what kind of slots you have depends on what kind of adapter card you have with the exception of the radius rocket all nubus cards i know of work in the si pds slots and thus cards are mac specific thus not all pds cards work in all macs from planet bmug the firstclass bbs of bmug the message contained in this posting does not in any way reflect bmug s official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	desi pb upgrade does anyone know exactly how digital eclipse does their upgrades someone was suggesting to me that some chips may not be able to perform at mhz is this true and if so how does desi deal with that david from planet bmug the firstclass bbs of bmug the message contained in this posting does not in any way reflect bmug s official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	good display card for multisync hi there i wonder if anyone knows and can recommend me a good nubus display card for driving a multisync nec d the nec d can do horizontal refresh from khz to khz and vertical from hz to hz and can do max x interlaced though i am looking for something more like x or x noninterlaced it would be very nice to find a card which can be programmed quite freely within these limits and is capable to display at least bits pixel preferably more is there anything on the market that comes even close thanks jartsu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	good hard disk driver for non apple drives sys compat hi there what is your recommendation for a good hard disk driver software for non apple drives i would mainly need it for a syquest removable media drive but maybe for some normal drives too i have heard and seen good things about silverlining but don t know any competitors it does not need to be fancy filled with features i more like it affordable thanks jartsu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re adding vram to quadra wstuartj lucky ecn purdue edu w stuart jones writes i want to go from k to m vram on my quadra how many k simms do i need to buy none you need to buy ns k vram simms they cost about each from your favorite memory distributor is the current k soldered on the board or do i need to take out the current vram before i add more the k is soldered to the logic board there are simm slots for expansion hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	psi comstation anyone have any expierience with psi s comstation please contact me if you had or have a suggesiton for a really good modem with fax for the macintosh via uci v c net amiga dennis t cheung the dtc tm corporation of america america online dtc internet dtc mlinknet hotcity com disclaimer you never read this message this message doesn t exist
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re why the drive speeds differ in c r z gb zimmer csufresno edu mmatteo mondrian csufresno edu marc matteo writes i just got a la cie meg external hard drive speed tests show that it s substantially faster that my internal meg quantum hd supposedly the and the both lps drives are roughly rated the same speed why such a large difference could be better caching on the disk could be faster coil for seeks could be that the disk spins faster so data transfers faster could be that data is packed tighter so it transfers faster could be a faster scsi command decoder in the drive among other things jon w tte h nada kth se mac hacker deluxe engineering how will this work science why will this work management when will this work liberal arts do you want fries with that jesse n schell
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re adding vram to quadra in article wstuartj lucky ecn purdue edu wstuartj lucky ecn purdue edu w stuart jones writes i want to go from k to m vram on my quadra how many k simms do i need to buy is the current k soldered on the board or do i need to take out the current vram before i add more you need to add two k vram simms k vram simms will not work in any of the quadra or centris machines there is already k of vram soldered to the logic board you add the two k simms to this to give you a total of mb dale adams
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re cache card for iisi can some people with cache cards please post speedometer numbers they get with the cards i have only one report which seems to indicate that a k cache card gives you only about a speedup ok i have a record that shows a iisi with and without a kb cache it s small enough that i will attach it i have also measured some real programs with and without the kb cache the speedup varies a lot from app to app ranging from to i think an average of is about right the subjective difference is not great but is sometimes noticable a simple cache card certainly does not transform a iisi into something enormously better i do not have an fpu the conventional wisdom says that cache cards from all of the makers offer about the same speedup and that there is not much difference between k and k caches i bought mine from third wave for well under i have had absolutely no problems at all with it if you get complete speedometer runs for a k cache i d like to see them let s check the conventional wisdom the so called performance rating numbers by themselves are of no interest cheers peter newton newton cs utexas edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re when is apple going to ship cd i s in article r fdinnddt senator bedfellow mit edu thewho athena mit edu derek a fong writes interestingly enough the cdrom i that came with my quadra has only disks system install kodak photo cd sampler alice to ocean cdrom titles application demos mozart dissonant quartet nautilus apple chronicles has anyone else noticed that they got less than everyone seems to be getting with the external what i really feel i missed out on is what is supposed to a fantastic games demo disk i have heard that people have gotten up to disks with their drive i assume they get the titles above plus cinderella and the games demo cdrom any comments and experiences should i call apple to complain derek thewho plume mit edu what i did not get with my drive cd i is the system install cd you listed as any ideas about how i can get one i bought my iivx from direct express in chicago no complaints at all good price good service btw i ve heard that the system install cd can be used to boot the mac however my drive will not accept a cd caddy is the machine is off how can you boot with it then dave dlc umcc ais org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	source for deskwriter ink carts could someone please e mail or post a cheap source for ink carts for the hp deskwriter original hp carts are preferred but i will settle for third party brands if they are of good quality tttttt eeeee vv vv eeeee tt ee vv vv ee tt eeee vv vv eeee steve liu tt ee vvv ee drlovemd jhunix hcf jhu edu tt eeeee v eeeee drlovemd jhuvms hcf jhu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re stereo sound problem on mac games steve bollinger buzz apple com writes enter game developers the sound driver and current sound manager are inconveniently lame for making games the sound driver is pretty ok since it s fast sound manager used by the book is useless disposing of sound channels as soon as sound has completed is out of the question for games with smooth animation it s too slow the sound driver is so much snappier than sound manager unfortunately system supports it poorly making programs crash occasionally the more of the story is to developers don t cheat really i am absolutely positively not allowed to do what i am about to do but i m going say it anyway stop cheating on sound really soon you will be sorry as even those without external speakers will be disappointed with your sound on future hardware the grace period is about to end the sound manager is understandable now and works pretty well and will work even better soon so use it well i want my code to work on old systems too i don t know about sys but at least on there are bugs in the sound manager that causes channels to hang with no error message this happends when i keep a channel open for long periods necessary for performance and play many sounds stopping sounds halfway callbacks seems not to be reliable then only way i can safely tell if a sound has stopped playing is to inspect private variables in the channel qhead i think it was and the only way i have found to tell if a channel is hung is to inspect an undocumented flag and modify it am i happy with this nope i consider writing to soundbase simply to get rid of the bugs any better suggestions silent games is not among the acceptab e solutions ingemar ragnemalm dept of electrical engineering uunet mcvax enea rainier ingemar university of linkoping sweden ingemar isy liu se
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re buying a high speed v everything modem what is hardware handshaking and when do i want to use it dan
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re mac oriented bbss in chicago a member of the local bbs i frequent is looking for mac oriented bbss based in chicago any leads would be most appreciated here is a list of the firstclass systems in illinois chicago machine chicago il insane domain chicago il mac universe bbs chicago il the net rockford il mactripp wilmette il innovators vernon hills il if anyone wants the numbers to more firstclass systems i would be glad to post the complete list jason hyerstay adrenaline admin adrenaline online firstclass charlotte vt free access k hst dual onenet macunion fidonet usenet conferences megs of files dedicated to mac users cyberpunks civil libertarians and mecha gamers
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re making an internal hard disk into an external its not a difficult operation the cables and such are standard except for scsi id scsi id is usually three jumper pads labelled a a on quantums i am trying to put a mb drive from my lc into a case it is a conner cp a i can t figure out which jumpers are the scsi id jumpers is anyone familiar with this drive at the end of the drive oposite the pin pibbon connector there are eleven pins which look like this o o o o o o o o o o o l cr c where the o are pins and the l cr c represent some of the silk screen notation near these pins elsewhere on the board there are four jumper pads marked e e e e on the silk screen does anyone know where the scsi id a a a pins are and where the drive activity light led should be plugged into allan allan m schwartz ams auspex com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac scsi spec i have a maciifx and i know that it is wired about its scsi chain i just bought a drive and i need to find out a few hardcore scsi question does the iifx scsi chain want to see active or passive termination does the iifx scsi spec want me to enable the initiation of the sdtr message what does the iifx scsi spec want as far as parity checking these are some very good questions for the faq if someone does not have time to answer these questions but does know where i can look them up please let me know and i will repost the answers for everyone to see thanks tim keanini timk broder com or blast crl com sound engineer broderbund software
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re duo crashes aftersleep add me to the list of bugged owners i had a bunch of problems regarding sleep wakeup restart with the when i first got it both with and without the techworks ram finally it died wouldn t start until i opened the docking door which snaps open and the machine came up fine but with the clock a few decades off apple replaced the processor board now twice the machine has frozen no mouse action twice the machine has refused to wake up acutally the backlighting came on and the disk spins when the power adaptor is plugged in but not with a good battery the first time this happened removing both power adaptor and battery for minute brought the machine back the second time this happened the machine wouldn t wake up until powered down for about minutes the screen had what looked like red horizontal lines accross it both timse the file fax modem preferences has been corrupted according to disinfectent i have removed all the fax and modem software and the third party memory and am waiting to see if it happens again forrest forrest howard oracle corporation oracle parkway box redwood shores ca
comp.sys.mac.hardware	re mac portable vs powerbook answers can the internal hard drive of the macportable upgraded to larger capacity what is the specs a drive lps model is there any third party modem greater than bps with fax option p s i notice the macportable batteries are avalable thru the apple catalog eric choi internet eric choi p f n z fidonet org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quickdraw gx was re when are the rest of the inside mac s due we ll be releasing a whole new suite of quickdraw gx related docs if you re going to be at the wwdc next month you ll get a preliminary version of most of this documentation on the cd we re talking multiple thousands of pages i m afraid gx comprising graphics layout and printing has lots of new api calls and other functionality all of which need documenting dave opstad gx line layout weenie does gx take the place of bit qd or add to it right now bit is kinda aesthetically a pain in a few places because of hacks upon hacks to maintain compatibility with original qd i think of things like where you have to cast cgrafports to grafports and such it would be a lot cleaner to ditch this entire mess and start over do we get that maynard
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pb to non apple printer is there a workaround which will enable me to print to a hplj from my powerbook actually i m going to a m which will have an ethernet card in the localtalk slot grrrrr is there some hardware which will enable me to this easily kind of plug and play thanks pam mullen this message was sent by a member of seattle mac dbug s exchange bbs po box seattle wa usa infoline
comp.windows.x	th international obfuscated c code contest opening of enclosed are the rules guidelines and related information for the th international obfuscated c code contest this is part of a part shar file enjoy chongo landon curt noll oo larry bassel bin sh this is a shell archive shar made utc by chongo toad com source directory tmp existing files will be overwritten this shar contains length mode name r r r rules r r r guidelines r r r mkentry c r r r obfuscate info rules echo x extracting rules text sed s x shar eof rules x th international obfuscated c code contest rules x xcopyright c landon curt noll larry bassel xall rights reserved permission for personal education or non profit use is xgranted provided this this copyright and notice are included in its entirety xand remains unaltered all other uses must receive prior permission in writing xfrom both landon curt noll and larry bassel x x obfuscate tr v cated cating cates a to render obscure x b to darken to confuse his emotions obfuscated his x judgment llat obfuscare to darken ob intensive x lat fuscare to darken fuscus dark obfuscation n x obfuscatory adj x x xgoals of the contest x x to write the most obscure obfuscated c program under the rules below x to show the importance of programming style in an ironic way x to stress c compilers with unusual code x to illustrate some of the subtleties of the c language x to provide a safe forum for poor c code x x xrules x x to help us with the volume of entries we ask that you follow these rules x x your entry must be a complete program x x your entry must be bytes in length the number of characters x excluding whitespace tab space newline and excluding any or x followed by either whitespace or end of file must be x x your entry must be submitted in the following format x x entry xrule xfix y or n n this is a new entry y this replaces an older entry xtitle title of entry see comments below xentry entry number from to inclusive your st entry should by xdate date time of submission in utc see comments below xhost machine s and os s under which your entry was tested x use tab indented lines if needed x remark x place remarks about this entry in this section it would be helpful if x you were to indent your remarks with spaces though it is not a x requirement also if possible try to avoid going beyond the th x column blank lines are permitted x author xname your name xorg school company organization xaddr postal address x use tab indented lines to continue x don t forget to include the country xemail email address from a well known site or registered domain x if you give several forms list them on separate tab indented lines xanon y or n y remain anonymous n ok to publish this info x info xif your program needs an info file place a uuencoded copy of it in xthis section in the case of multiple info files use multiple info xsections if your entry does not need a info file skip this section x build xplace a uuencoded copy of the command s used to compile build your program xin this section it must uudecode into a file named build the resulting xfile must be bytes or less x program xplace a uuencoded copy of your program in this section it must uudecode xinto a file named is prog c the resulting file must follow rule x end x x regarding the above format x x the title must match the expression a za z a za z x and must be to characters in length x x it is suggested but not required that the title should x incorporate your username in the case of multiple authors x consider using parts of the usernames of the authors x x the date in the entry section should be given with respect x to utc the format of the date should be as returned by asctime x using the c locale see guidelines for more info x x you may correct revise a previously submitted entry by sending x it to the contest email address be sure to set fix in the x entry section to n the corrected entry must use the same x title and entry number as submittion that is being corrected be x sure that you note the resubmittion in the remark as well x x with the exception of the header all text outside of the above x format may be ignored by the judges if you need tell the judges x something put it in the remark section or send a separate x email message to the judges x x information from the author section will be published unless x y was given to the respective author s anon line x x to credit multiple authors include an author section for x each author each should start with author line and x should be found between the entry and build sections x x the entry s remarks should include x what this program does x how to run the program sample args or input x special compile or execution instructions if any x special filename requirements see rule and x information about any data files x why you think the program is obfuscated x note if this entry is a re submission of a previous entry x any other remarks humorous or otherwise x x do not rot your entry s remarks you may suggest that certain x portions of your remarks be rot ed if your entry wins an award x x info files should be used only to supplement your entry they x should not be required to exist x x if your entry does not need an info file skip the info x section if your entry needs multiple info files use multiple x info sections one per info file you should describe x each info file in the remark section x x if your entry is selected as a winner it will be modified as follows x x build is incorporated into a makefile and build is removed x prog c is renamed to your entry s title followed by an optional x digit followed by c x your entry is compiled into a file with the name of your entry s x title possibly followed by a digit x x if your entry requires that a build file exist state so in your x entry s remark section the makefile will be arranged to execute a x build shell script containing the build information the name of x this build shell script will be your entry s title possibly followed x by a digit followed by sh x x if needed your entry s remarks should indicate how your entry must x be changed in order to deal with the new filenames x x the build file the source and the resulting executable should be x treated as read only files if your entry needs to modify these files x it should make and modify a copy of the appropriate file if this x occurs state so in your entry s remarks x x entries that cannot be compiled by an ansi c compiler will be rejected x use of common c k r extensions is permitted as long as it does not x cause compile errors for ansi c compilers x x the program must be of original work all programs must be in the x public domain all copyrighted programs will be rejected x x entries must be received prior to may utc utc is x essentially equivalent to greenwich mean time email your entries to x x apple pyramid sun uunet hoptoad obfuscate x obfuscate toad com x x we request that your message use the subject ioccc entry x x if possible we request that you hold off on emailing your entries x until mar utc early entries will be accepted however x we will attempt to email a confirmation to the the first author for x all entries received after mar utc x x each person may submit up to entries per contest year each entry x must be sent in a separate email letter x x entries requiring human interaction to be built are not allowed x compiling an entry produce a file or files which may be executed x x programs that require special privileges setuid setgid super user x special owner or group are not allowed x x xfor more information x x the judging will be done by landon noll and larry bassel please send x questions or comments but not entries about the contest to x x apple pyramid sun uunet hoptoad judges x judges toad com x x the rules and the guidelines may and often do change from year to x year you should be sure you have the current rules and guidelines x prior to submitting entries to obtain all of them send email x to the address above and use the subject send rules x x one may also obtain them via anonymous ftp from x x host ftp uu net x user anonymous x pass yourname yourhost x dir pub ioccc x x xchongo landon curt noll cc hoptoad chongo xlarry bassel uunet ucbvax cbosgd sun lab shar eof chmod rules echo restore of rules failed set wc c rules wc c if test wc c then echo original size current size wc c fi guidelines echo x extracting guidelines text sed s x shar eof guidelines x th international obfuscated c code contest guidelines hints and comments x xcopyright c landon curt noll larry bassel xall rights reserved permission for personal education or non profit use is xgranted provided this this copyright and notice are included in its entirety xand remains unaltered all other uses must receive prior permission in writing xfrom both landon curt noll and larry bassel x xabout this file x x this file is intended to help people who wish to submit entries to x the international obfuscated c code contest ioccc for short x x this is not the ioccc rules though it does contain comments about x them the guidelines should be viewed as hints and suggestions x entries that violate the guidelines but remain within the rules are x allowed even so you are safer if you remain within the guidelines x x you should read the current ioccc rules prior to submitting entries x the rules are typically sent out with these guidelines x x xwhat is new in x x the entry format is better for us anyway the program mkentry c x has been updated see entry format x x we will reject entries that cannot be compiled using an ansi c x compiler certain old obfuscation hacks that cause ansi c compilers x fits are no longer permitted some of the new issues deal with x non integral array types variable number of arguments c preprocessor x directives and the exit function see our likes and dislikes x x xhints and suggestions x x you are encouraged to examine the winners of previous contests see x for more information for details on how to get previous winners x x keep in mind that rules change from year to year so some winning entries x may not be valid entries this year what was unique and novel one year x might be old the next year x x an entry is usually examined in a number of ways we typically apply x a number of tests to an entry x x look at the original source x convert ansi tri graphs to ascii x c pre process the source ignoring include lines x c pre process the source ignoring define and include lines x run it through a c beautifier x examine the algorithm x lint it x compile it x execute it x x you should consider how your entry looks in each of the above tests x you should ask yourself if your entry remains obscure after it has been x cleaned up by the c pre processor and a c beautifier x x your entry need not do well under all or in most tests in certain x cases a test is not important entries that compete for the x strangest most creative source layout need not do as well as x others in terms of their algorithm on the other hand given x two such entries we are more inclined to pick the entry that x does something interesting when you run it x x we try to avoid limiting creativity in our rules as such we leave x the contest open for creative rule interpretation as in real life x programming interpreting a requirements document or a customer request x is important for this reason we often award worst abuse of the x rules to an entry that illustrates this point in an ironic way x x if you do plan to abuse the rules we suggest that you let us know x in the remarks section please note that an invitation to abuse x is not an invitation to break we are strict when it comes to the x byte size limit also abusing the entry format tends to x annoy more than amuse x x we do realize that there are holes in the rules and invite entries x to attempt to exploit them we will award worst abuse of the rules x and then plug the hole next year even so we will attempt to use x the smallest plug needed if not smaller x x check out your program and be sure that it works we sometimes make x the effort to debug an entry that has a slight problem particularly x in or near the final round on the other hand we have seen some x of the best entries fall down because they didn t work x x we tend to look down on a prime number printer that claims that x is a prime number if you do have a bug you are better off x documenting it noting this entry sometimes prints the th power x of a prime by mistake would save the above entry and sometimes x a strange bug feature can even help the entry of course a correctly x working entry is best x x xour likes and dislikes x x doing masses of defines to obscure the source has become old we x tend to see thru masses of defines due to our pre processor tests x that we apply simply abusing defines or dfoo bar won t go as far x as a program that is more well rounded in confusion x x many ansi c compilers dislike the following code and so do we x x define d define x d foo don t expect this to turn into define foo x x int i x j don t use such implicit type declaration x int k x x we suggest that you compile your entry with an ansi c compiler if you x must use non ansi c such as k r c you must avoid areas that result in x compile link errors for ansi c compilers x x unfortunately ansi c requires array indexes to be of integral type x thus the following classical obfuscation hacks are no longer allowed x x int i x char c x i c use c i instead x i string use string i instead x x if your entry uses functions that have a variable number of x arguments be careful systems implement va list as a wide variety x of ways because of this a number of operations using va list are x not portable and must not be used x x assigning a non va list variable to from a va list variable x casting a non va list variable into from a va list variable x passing a va list variable to a function expecting a non va list arg x passing a non va list variable to a function expecting a va list arg x performing arithmetic on va list variables x using va list as a structure or union x x in particular do not treat va list variables as if they were a char s x x avoid using varargs h use stdarg h instead x x if you use c preprocessor directives define if ifdef x the leading must be the first character on a line while some x c preprocessors allow whitespace the leading many do not x x because the exit function returns void on some systems entries x must not assume that it returns an int x x small programs are best when they are short obscure and concise x while such programs are not as complex as other winners they do x serve a useful purpose they are often the only program that people x attempt to completely understand for this reason we look for x programs that are compact and are instructional x x one line programs should be short one line programs say around x bytes long getting close to bytes is a bit too long in our opinion x x we tend to dislike programs that x x are very hardware specific x are very os or un x version specific x index strchr differences are ok but socket streams specific x code is likely not to be x dump core or have compiler warnings x it is ok only if you warn us in the remark header item x won t compile under both bsd or sys v un x x abusing the build file to get around the size limit x obfuscate by excessive use of ansi tri graphs x are longer than they need to be x are similar to previous winners x are identical to previous losers x x unless you are cramped for space or unless you are entering the x best one liner category we suggest that you format your program x in a more creative way than simply forming excessively long lines x x the build file should not be used to try and get around the size x limit it is one thing to make use of a several d s to help out x but it is quite another to use bytes of d s in order to x try and squeeze the source under the size limit you should feel x free to make use of the build file space but you are better off x if you show some amount of restraint x x we allowed whitespace and in certain cases or do not impact x your program size up to a certain point because we want to get x away from source that is simply a compact blob of characters x x given two versions of the same program one that is a compact blob x of code and the other that is formatted more like a typical c x program we tend to favor the second version of course a third x version of the same program that is formatted in an interesting x and or obfuscated way would definitely win over the first two x x we suggest that you avoid trying for the smallest self replicating x program we are amazed at the many different sizes that claim x to be the smallest there is nothing wrong with self replicating x programs in fact a number of winners have been self replicating x you might want to avoid the claim of smallest lest we or others x know of a smaller one x x x client entries should be as portable as possible entries that x adapt to a wide collection of environments will be favored don t x depend on a particular type of display for example don t depend x on color or a given size don t require backing store x x x client entries should avoid using x related libraries and x software that is not in wide spread use we ask that such x client x entries restrict themselves to only the low level xlib and the x athena widget set libx a libxaw a libxmu a and libxt a x don t use m tif xv ew or openl ok toolkits since not everyone x has them avoid depending on a particular window manager not x everyone has x r and some people are stuck back in x r or x earlier so try to target x r without requiring x r better x yet try to make your entry run on all version x window systems x x x client entries should not to depend on particular items on x xdefaults if you must do so be sure to note the required lines x in the remark section x x we like programs that x x are as concise and small as they need to be x do something at least quasi interesting x pass lint without complaint not a requirement but it is nice x are portable x are unique or novel in their obfuscation style x make use of a number of different types of obfuscation x make us laugh and or throw up x x some types of programs can t excel in some areas of course your x program doesn t have to excel in all areas but doing well in several x areas really does help x x we freely admit that interesting creative or humorous comments in x the remark section helps your chance of winning if you had to x read of many twisted entries you too would enjoy a good laugh or two x we think the readers of the contest winners do as well x x be creative x x xentry format x x in order to help us process the many entries we must request your x assistance by formatting your entries in a certain way this format x in addition allows us to quickly separate information about the x author from the program itself see judging process x x we have provided the program mkentry as an example of how to x format entries you should be aware of the following warning that x is found in mkentry c x x this program attempts to implement the ioccc rules every x attempt has been made to make sure that this program produces x an entry that conforms to the contest rules in all cases x where this program differs from the contest rules the x contest rules will be used be sure to check with the x contest rules before submitting an entry x x you are not required to use mkentry it is convenient however x as it attempts to uuencode the needed files and attempt to check x the entry against the size rules x x if you have any suggestions comments fixes or complaints about x the mkentry c program please send email to the judges see below x x the following is a sample entry x x entry xrule xfix n xtitle chonglab xentry xdate mon mar xhost un x v pdp x bsd pdp x remark x this is a non obfuscated obfuscated c program x x it is likely not to win a prize but what do you expect from x a short example x author xname landon curt noll xorg ioccc judging group xaddr toad hall x po box x san francisco california x x usa xemail chongo toad com xanon n x author xname larry bassel xorg ioccc judging group xaddr toad hall x po box x san francisco california x x usa xemail hoptoad sun lab x lab sun com xanon n x info x xend x build xbegin build x v o ryc uo r v x xend x program xend x end x x typically the build file should assume that the source is prog c x and will compile into prog if an entry wins we will rename x its source and binary to avoid filename collision by tradition x we use the name of the entry s title followed by an optional x digit in case of name conflicts x x if the above entry somehow won the least likely to win award x we would use chonglab c and chonglab x x if your entry depends on or requires that your build source x and or binary files be a particular name please say so in the x remark section if this case applies it would be be helpful x if you did one of the following x x tell us how to change the filename s in your entry x x have the build file make copies of the files for example x x cc prog c o special name need special binary x x or rm f special src c need special source x cp prog c special src c x cc special src c o special name x x or rm f special build need special build x tail build special build x sh special build x x assume that we will use the entry title send us a version of x your build program files that uses the name convention you x should uuencode these files in data sections x x if your entry needs to modify its source info or binary files x please say so in the remark section you should try to avoid x touching your original build source and binary files you should x arrange to make copies of the files you intend to modify this x will allow people to re generate your entry from scratch x x remember that your entry may be built without a build file we x typically incorporate the build lines into a makefile if the x build file must exist say so in the remark section x x if your entry needs special info files you should uuencode them x into info sections in the case of multiple info files x use multiple info sections if no info files are needed x then skip the info section x x info files are intended to be input or detailed information that x does not fit well into the remark section for example an x entry that implements a compiler might want to provide some sample x programs for the user to compile an entry might want to include a x lengthy design document that might not be appropriate for a x hints file x x info files should be used only to supplement your entry for x example info files may provide sample input or detailed x information about your entry because they are supplemental x the entry should not require them exist x x in some cases your info files might be renamed to avoid name x conflicts if info files should not be renamed for some reason x say so in the remark section x x info files must uudecode into the current directory if they x absolutely must be renamed or moved into a sub directory say x so in the remark section x x when submitting multiple entries be sure that each entry has x a unique entry number from to your first entry should x have entry number x x with the exception of the header all text outside of the entry x format may be ignored that is don t place text outside of the x entry and expect the judges to see it our decoding tools aren t x ai progs if you need tell the the something put it in the x remark section or send a email to the judges at x x apple pyramid sun uunet hoptoad judges not the address for x judges toad com submitting entries x x the date should be given with respect to utc some systems refer x to this as gmt or gmt the format of the date should be that as x returned by asctime in the c locale an example of such a string is x x thr apr x x this format is similar to the output of the date command the x string does not include the timezone name before the year on many x systems one of the following command will produce a similar string x x date u a h d t y x date u sed e s x sh c tz utc date sed e s x sh c tz gmt date sed e s x sh c tz gmt date sed e s x x you are allowed to update fix revise your entry to do so set x the fix line in the entry section to y instead of n x be sure that the resubmittion uses the same title and entry number x as well as these are used to determine which entry is to be x replaced x x xjudging process x x entries are judged by larry bassel and landon curt noll x x entries are unpacked into individual directories the email message x is unpacked into individual files each containing x x entry section x all author sections x all info sections x build section x program section x any other text including the email message headers x x prior to judging the any other text file is scanned to be sure x it does not contain useful information or in case the entry was x malformed and did not unpack correctly information from the x author sections are not read until the judging process is x complete and then only from entries that have won an award x x the above process helps keep us biased for against any one particular x individual we are usually kept in the dark as much as you are x until the final awards are given we like the surprise of finding x out in the end who won and where they were from x x we attempt to keep all entries anonymous unless they win an award x because the main prize of winning is being announced we make all x attempts to send non winners into oblivion we remove all non winning x files and shred all related paper by tradition we do not even x reveal the number of entries that we received for the curious x we do indicate the volume of paper consumed when presenting the ioccc x winners at talks x x after the usenix announcement we attempt to send email to the x authors of the winning entries one reason we do this is to give x the authors a chance to comment on the way we have presented their x entry they are given the chance to correct mistakes typos we x often accept their suggestions comments about our remarks as well x this is done prior to posting the winners to the wide world x x judging consists of a number of elimination rounds during a round x the collection of entries are divided into two roughly equal piles x the pile that advances on to the next round and the pile that does x not we also re examine the entries that were eliminated in the x previous round thus an entry gets at least two readings x x a reading consists of a number of actions x x reading the entry section x reading the uudecoded build section x reading the uudecoded program section x reading the uudecoded info section s if any x passing the source thru the c pre processor x shipping over any include files x performing a number of c beautify cleanup edits on the source x passing the beautified source thru the c pre processor x shipping over any include files x x in later rounds other actions are performed x x linting the source x compiling building the source x running the program x performing misc tests on the source and binary x x until we reduce the stack of entries down to about entries entries x are judged on an individual basis an entry is set aside because it x does not in our opinion meet the standard established by the round x when the number of entries thins to about entries we begin to form x award categories entries begin to compete with each other for awards x an entry often will compete in several categories x x the actual award category list will vary depending on the types of entries x we receive a typical category list might be x x best small one line program x best small program x strangest most creative source layout x most useful obfuscated program x best game that is obfuscated x most creatively obfuscated program x most deceptive c code x best x client see our likes and dislikes x best abuse of ansi c x worst abuse of the rules x anything else so strange that it deserves an award x x we do not limit ourselves to this list for example a few entries are so x good bad that they are declared winners at the start of the final round x we will invent awards categories for them if necessary x x in the final round process we perform the difficult tasks of x reducing the remaining entries typically about down to or x winners often we are confident that the entries that make it into x the final round are definitely better than the ones that do not x make it the selection of the winners out of the final round is x less clear cut x x sometimes a final round entry good enough to win but is beat out x by a similar but slightly better entry for this reason it is x sometimes worthwhile to re enter an improved version of an entry x that failed to win in a previous year this assumes of course x that the entry is worth improving in the first place x x more often that not we select a small entry usually one line a x strange creative layout entry and an entry that abuses the contest x rules in some way x x in the end we traditionally pick one entry as best sometimes such x an entry simply far exceeds any of the other entry more often the x best is picked because it does well in a number of categories x x xannouncement of winners x x the first announcement occurs at a summer usenix conference by tradition x this is done during the latter part of the uunet ioccc bof just prior to x the berkeley bsd and bsdi bof x x winning entries will be posted in late june to the following groups x x comp lang c comp unix wizards alt sources x x in addition pointers to these postings are posted to the following x x comp sources d alt sources d misc misc x comp sources misc comp windows x x x winning entries will be deposited into the uunet archives see x below for details x x often winning entries are published in selected magazines winners x have appeared in books the new hackers dictionary and on t shirts x x last but not least winners receive international fame and flames x x xfor more information x x you may contact the judges by sending email to the following address x x apple pyramid sun uunet hoptoad judges not the address for x judges toad com submitting entries x x questions and comments about the contest are welcome x x one may obtain a copy of the current rules guidelines or mkentry x program to obtain all of them send email to the address above x and use the subject send rules x x one may also obtain the above items we well as winners of previous x contests via anonymous ftp from x x host ftp uu net x user anonymous x pass yourname yourhost x dir pub ioccc x x often contest rules guidelines and winners are available from x archive sites check comp sources unix archives for example x you may also request previous winners by email using the judges x email address though we ask that you do this as a last resort x x xchongo landon curt noll cc hoptoad chongo xlarry bassel uunet ucbvax cbosgd sun lab shar eof chmod guidelines echo restore of guidelines failed set wc c guidelines wc c if test wc c then echo original size current size wc c fi echo end of part continue with part exit sunnyvale residents vote landon noll for sunnyvale city council seat
comp.windows.x	th international obfuscated c code contest opening part of enclosed are the rules guidelines and related information for the th international obfuscated c code contest this is part of a part shar file enjoy chongo landon curt noll oo larry bassel bin sh this is part of a multipart archive mkentry c echo x extracting mkentry c text sed s x shar eof mkentry c x mkentry c x x copyright c landon curt noll larry bassel x all rights reserved permission for personal education or non profit use x is granted provided this this copyright and notice are included in its x entirety and remains unaltered all other uses must receive prior x permission in writing from both landon curt noll and larry bassel x x x mkentry make an international obfuscated c code contest entry x x usage x mkentry r remarks b build p prog c o ioccc entry x x r remarks file with remarks about the entry x b build file containing how prog c should be built x p prog c the obfuscated program source file x o ioccc entry ioccc entry output file x x compile by x cc mkentry c o mkentry x x x placed in the public domain by landon curt noll x x this software is provided as is and without any express or implied x warranties including without limitation the implied warranties of x merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose x x x warning x x this program attempts to implement the ioccc rules every attempt x has been made to make sure that this program produces an entry that x conforms to the contest rules in all cases where this program x differs from the contest rules the contest rules will be used be x sure to check with the contest rules before submitting an entry x x send questions or comments but not entries about the contest to x x sun pacbell uunet pyramid hoptoad judges x judges toad com x the rules and the guidelines may and often do change from year to x year you should be sure you have the current rules and guidelines x prior to submitting entries to obtain all of them send email x to the address above and use the subject send rules x x because contest rules change from year to year one should only use this x program for the year that it was intended be sure that the rule year x define below matches this current year x x x include stdio h x include ctype h x include time h x include sys types h x include sys stat h x x logic x ifndef true x define true x endif true x ifndef false x define false x endif false x define eof ok true x define eof not ok false x x global limits x define rule year note should match the current year x define start date mar utc first confirmation received x define max col max column a line should hit x define max build size max how to build size x define max program size max program source size x define max program size max program source size not counting x whitespace and not followed by x whitespace or eof x define max title len max chars in the title x define max entry len max length in the entry input line x define max entry max number of entries per person per year x define max file len max filename length for a info file x x where to send entries x define entry addr apple pyramid sun uunet hoptoad obfuscate x define entry addr obfuscate toad com x x uuencode process assumes ascii x define uuencode c encode str int c xff x define uuencode len max uuencode chunk size x define uuinfo mode mode of an info file s uuencode file x define uubuild mode mode of the build file s uuencode file x define uubuild name build name for the build file s uuencode file x define uuprog mode mode of the program s uuencode file x define uuprog name prog c name for the program s uuencode file x x encode str char val is the uuencoded character of val xchar encode str abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz x x global declarations xchar program our name xlong start time the startup time x x forward declarations xvoid parse args xvoid usage xfile open remark xfile open build xfile open program xfile open output xvoid output entry xvoid output remark xvoid output author xvoid output info xvoid output build xvoid output program xvoid output end xint get line xvoid output till dot xint col len xvoid check io xvoid uuencode x xmain argc argv x int argc arg count x char argv the args x x file remark null open remarks stream x file build null open build file stream x file prog null open program stream x file output null open output stream x char rname null file with remarks about the entry x char bname null file containing how prog c should be built x char pname null the obfuscated program source file x char oname null ioccc entry output file x struct tm tm startup time structure x x x check on the year x x start time time long x tm gmtime start time x if tm tm year rule year x fprintf stderr x s warning this program applies to d which may differ from d n n x argv rule year tm tm year x x x x parse the command line args x x parse args argc argv rname bname pname oname x x x open check the input and output files x x we open and truncate the output file first in case it is the same x as one of the input files x x output open output oname x remark open remark rname x build open build bname x prog open program pname x if output null remark null build null prog null x exit x x x x output each section x x output entry output oname x output remark output oname remark rname x output author output oname x output info output oname x output build output oname build bname x output program output oname prog pname x output end output oname x x x flush the output x x if fflush output eof x fprintf stderr s flush error in s program oname x perror x exit x x x x final words x x printf nyour entry can be found in s you should check this file n x oname x printf correct any problems and verify that the uudecode utility will n x printf correctly decode your build file and program n n x printf this program has been provided as a guide for submitters in n x printf cases where it conflicts with the rules the rules shall apply n x printf it is your responsibility to ensure that your entry conforms to n x printf the current rules n n x printf email your entries to n x printf t s n entry addr x printf t s n n entry addr x printf please use the following subject when you email your entry n x printf tioccc entry n n x all done x exit x x x x parse args parse the command line args x x given the command line args this function parses them and sets the x required name flags this function will return only if the command x line syntax is correct x xvoid xparse args argc argv rname bname pname oname x int argc arg count x char argv the args x char rname file with remarks about the entry x char bname file containing how prog c should be built x char pname the obfuscated program source file x char oname ioccc entry output file x x char optarg flag option operand x int flagname the name of the flag x int i x x x not everyone has getopt so we must parse args by hand x x program argv x for i i argc i x x determine the flagname x if argv i x usage x notreached x x flagname int argv i x x determine the flag s operand x if flagname argv i x optarg argv i x else x if i argc x usage x notreached x else x optarg argv i x x x x save the flag s operand in the correct global variable x switch flagname x case r x rname optarg x break x case b x bname optarg x break x case p x pname optarg x break x case o x oname optarg x break x default x usage x notreached x x x x x verify that we have all of the required flags x x if rname null bname null pname null oname null x usage x notreached x x return x x x x usage print a usage message and exit x x this function does not return x xvoid xusage exitval x int exitval exit with this value x x fprintf stderr x usage s r remarks b build p prog c o ioccc entry n n program x fprintf stderr t r remarks tfile with remarks about the entry n x fprintf stderr t b build tfile containing how prog c should be built n x fprintf stderr t p prog c tthe obfuscated program source file n x fprintf stderr t o ioccc entry tioccc entry output file n x exit exitval x x x x open remark open check the remark file x x the remark file should be indented by spaces and should not extend x beyond column max col these are not requirements so we only warn x x this function returns null on i o or format error x xfile xopen remark filename x char filename x x file stream the opened file stream x char buf bufsiz input buffer x int toolong number of lines that are too long x int non indent number of lines not indented by spaces x x x open the remark input file x x stream fopen filename r x if stream null x fprintf stderr s cannot open remark file s x program filename x perror x return null x x x x look at each line x x while fgets buf bufsiz stream null x x count lines that do not start with spaces x if buf n strncmp buf x non indent x x x count long lines x if col len buf max col x found a line that is too long x toolong x x x x watch for i o errors x check io stream filename eof ok x x note long lines if needed x if toolong x fprintf stderr x s warning d line s from s extend beyond the th column n x program toolong filename x fprintf stderr x s this is ok but it would be nice to avoid n n x program x x x note non indented lines if needed x if non indent x fprintf stderr x s warning d line s from s are not indented by spaces n x program non indent filename x fprintf stderr x s this is ok but it would be nice to avoid n n x program x x x return the open file x rewind stream x return stream x x x x open build open check the build file x x the how to build file must not be longer than max build size bytes x x this function returns null on i o or size error x xfile xopen build filename x char filename x x file stream the opened file stream x struct stat statbuf the status of the open file x x x open the how to build input file x x stream fopen filename r x if stream null x fprintf stderr s cannot open how to build file s x program filename x perror x return null x x x x determine the size of the file x x if fstat fileno stream statbuf x fprintf stderr s cannot stat how to build file s x program filename x perror x return null x x if statbuf st size max build size x fprintf stderr x s fatal the how to build file s is d bytes long n x program filename statbuf st size x fprintf stderr x s it may not be longer than d bytes n x program max build size x return null x x x return the open file x return stream x x x x open program open check the program source file x x the program source file must be bytes the number of x non whitespace and chars not followed by whitespace must x be bytes x x this function returns null on i o or size error x xfile xopen program filename x char filename x x file stream the opened file stream x struct stat statbuf the status of the open file x int count special count size x int c the character read x x x open the program source input file x x stream fopen filename r x if stream null x fprintf stderr s cannot open program source file s x program filename x perror x exit x x x x determine the size of the file x x if fstat fileno stream statbuf x fprintf stderr s cannot stat program source file s x program filename x perror x return null x x if statbuf st size max program size x fprintf stderr x s fatal the program source file s is d bytes long n x program filename statbuf st size x fprintf stderr x s it may not be longer than d bytes n x program max program size x return null x x x x count the non whitespace non followed by whitespace chars x x count x c x while c fgetc stream eof x look at non whitespace x if isascii c isspace c x switch c x case count if not followed by eof or whitespace x case x case x peek at next char x c fgetc stream x if c eof isascii c isspace c x not followed by whitespace or eof count it x ungetc c stream x count x x break x default x count x break x x x x x watch for i o errors x check io stream filename eof ok x x look at the special size x if count max program size x fprintf stderr x s fatal the number of bytes that are non whitespace and n x program x fprintf stderr x s that are not followed by whitespace n x program x fprintf stderr x s or eof must be d bytes n x program max program size x fprintf stderr x s in s d bytes were found n x program filename count x return null x x x return the open file x rewind stream x return stream x x x x open output open check the entry output file x x this function returns null on open error x xfile xopen output filename x char filename x x file stream the opened file stream x x x open the ioccc entry output file x x stream fopen filename w x if stream null x fprintf stderr s cannot open ioccc entry file for output s x program filename x perror x exit x x x return the open file x return stream x x x x output entry output the entry section x x read the needed information form stdin and write the entry section x xvoid xoutput entry output oname x file output entry s output file stream x char oname name of the output file x x char title max title len the entry s title x char buf max col i o buffer x int entry entry number x int ret fields processed by fscanf x int ok line the line is not ok x char skip input to skip x file date pipe pipe to a date command x time t epoch sec seconds since the epoch x char p x x x write the start of the section x x fprintf output entry n x check io output oname eof not ok x x x write the rule year x x fprintf output rule t d n rule year x check io output oname eof not ok x x determine if this is a fix x printf is this a fix update or resubmittion to a x printf previous entry enter y or n x while get line buf buf y buf n x printf nplease answer y or n x x if buf y x fprintf output fix ty n x check io output oname eof not ok x printf nbe sure that the title and entry number that you give n x printf are the same of as the entry you are replacing n x else x fprintf output fix tn n x check io output oname eof not ok x x x x write the title x x printf nyour title must match expression be a a za z character n x printf followed by to d more a za z characters n n x max title len x printf it is suggested but not required that the title should n x printf incorporate your username in the n x printf case of multiple authors consider using parts of the usernames n x printf of the authors n n x printf enter your title x do x prompt and read a line x if ok line get line title max title len max col x printf ntitle is too long please re enter x continue x x x verify the pattern not everyone has regexp so do it by hand x if isascii int title x isalnum int title title title x printf ninvalid first character in the title n n x printf enter your title x ok line x else x for p title p p n p x if isascii int p x isalnum int p x p p p p x printf ninvalid character in the title n n x printf enter your title x ok line x x x x while ok line x fprintf output title t s title x check io output oname eof not ok x x x write the entry number x x printf neach person may submit up to d entries per year n n x max entry x printf enter an entry number from to d inclusive max entry x do x get a valid input line x fflush stdout x ret fscanf stdin d n entry x check io stdin stdin eof not ok x skip over input until newline is found x do x skip fgetc stdin x check io stdin stdin eof not ok x if skip n x bad text in input invalidate entry number x entry x x while skip n x x check if we have a number and if it is in range x if ret entry entry max entry x printf x nthe entry number must be between and d inclusive n n x max entry x printf enter the entry number x x while ret entry entry max entry x fprintf output entry t d n entry x check io output oname eof not ok x x x write the submission date x x returns a newline x epoch sec time null x fprintf output date t s asctime gmtime epoch sec x check io output oname eof not ok x x x write the os machine host information x x printf x nenter the machine s and os s under which your entry was tested n x output till dot output oname host x x x x output remark output the remark section x x read the needed information form stdin and write the entry section x xvoid xoutput remark output oname remark rname x file output entry s output file stream x char oname name of the output file x file remark stream to the file containing remark text x char rname name of the remark file x x char buf bufsiz input output buffer x x x write the start of the section x x fprintf output remark n x check io output oname eof not ok x x x copy the remark file to the section x x while fgets buf bufsiz remark null x fputs buf output x check io output oname eof not ok x x check io remark rname eof ok x x be sure that the remark section ends with a newline x if buf strlen buf n x fputc n output x check io output oname eof not ok x x x x x output author output the author section x x read the needed information from stdin and write the author section x if multiple authors exist multiple author sections will be written x xvoid xoutput author output oname x file output entry s output file stream x char oname name of the output file x x char buf max col i o buffer x int more auths true more authors to note x int auth cnt number of authors processed x x x prompt the user for the author section x x printf nenter information about each author if your entry is after n x printf s and before the contest deadline the judges n start date x printf will attempt to email back a confirmation to the first author n x x x place author information for each author in an individual section x x do x x write the start of the section x fprintf output author n x check io output oname eof not ok x x write the author x printf nauthor d name auth cnt x while get line buf max col max col x printf nname too long please re enter x x fprintf output name t s buf x check io output oname eof not ok x x write the organization x printf nenter the school company organization of author d n x auth cnt x printf nauthor d org auth cnt x while get line buf max col max col x printf nline too long please re enter x x fprintf output org t s buf x check io output oname eof not ok x x write the address x printf x nenter the postal address for author d be sure to include n x auth cnt x printf your country and do not include your name n x output till dot output oname addr x x write the email address x printf x nenter the email address for author d use an address from n x auth cnt x printf x a registered domain or well known site if you give several n x printf forms list them one per line n x output till dot output oname email x x write the anonymous status x printf nshould author d remain anonymous enter y or n x auth cnt x while get line buf buf y buf n x printf nplease answer y or n x x fprintf output anon t s buf x check io output oname eof not ok x x determine if there is another author x printf nis there another author enter y or n x while get line buf buf y buf n x printf nplease answer y or n x x if buf y x more auths true x else x more auths false x x while more auths true x return x x x x output info output the info section s x x read the needed information from stdin and write the info section x if multiple info files exist multiple info sections will be written x xvoid xoutput info output oname x file output entry s output file stream x char oname name of the output file x x char infoname max file len filename buffer x char yorn y or n answer x char uuname name to uuencode as x file infile info file stream x x x prompt the user for info information x x printf ninfo files should be used only to supplement your entry n x printf for example info files may provide sample input or detailed n x printf information about your entry because they are supplemental n x printf the entry should not require them to exist n n x x x while there is another info file to save uuencode it x x printf do you have a info file to include enter y or n x while get line yorn yorn y yorn n x printf nplease answer y or n x x while yorn y x x read the filename x printf nenter the info filename x while get line infoname max file len x printf ninfo filename too long please re enter x x x compute the basename of the info filename x remove the trailing newline x uuname infoname strlen infoname x uuname x avoid rindex shrrchr compat issues do it by hand x for uuname uuname infoname uuname x if uuname x uuname x break x x x x attempt to open the info file x infile fopen infoname r x if infile null x fprintf stderr n s cannot open info file s x program infoname x perror x continue x x x x write the start of the section x x fprintf output info n x check io output oname eof not ok x x uuencode the info file x uuencode output oname infile infoname uuinfo mode uuname x x printf ndo you have another info file to include enter y or n x while get line yorn yorn y yorn n x printf nplease answer y or n x x x return x x x x output build output the build section x x read the needed information from stdin and write the build section x xvoid xoutput build output oname build bname x file output entry s output file stream x char oname name of the output file x file build open build file stream x char bname name of the build file x x x write the start of the section x x fprintf output build n x check io output oname eof not ok x x x uuencode the program file x x uuencode output oname build bname uubuild mode uubuild name x return x x x x output program output the program section x x read the needed information form stdin and write the program section x xvoid xoutput program output oname prog pname x file output entry s output file stream x char oname name of the output file x file prog open program stream x char pname name of program file x x x write the start of the section x x fprintf output program n x check io output oname eof not ok x x x uuencode the program file x x uuencode output oname prog pname uuprog mode uuprog name x return x x x x output end output the end section x x read the needed information form stdin and write the end section x xvoid xoutput end output oname x file output entry s output file stream x char oname name of the output file x x x write the final section terminator x x fprintf output end n x check io output oname eof not ok x return x x x x get line get an answer from stdin x x this function will flush stdout in case a prompt is pending and x read in the answer x x this function returns if the line is too long of the length of the x line including the newline of the line was ok this function does x not return if error or eof x xint xget line buf siz maxcol x char buf input buffer x int siz length of input including the newline x int maxcol max col allowed disable check x x int length the length of the input line x x flush terminal output x fflush stdout x x read the line x if fgets buf siz stdin null x report the problem x check io stdin stdin eof not ok x x x look for the newline x length strlen buf x if buf length n x int eatchar the char being eaten x x no newline found line must be too long eat the rest of the line x do x eatchar fgetc stdin x while eatchar eof eatchar n x check io stdin stdin eof not ok x x report the situation x return x x x watch for long lines if needed x if maxcol length maxcol col len buf maxcol x report the situation x return x x x return length x return length x x x x output till dot output a set of lines until by itself is read x x this routine will read a set of lines until but not including x a single line with is read the format of the output is x x leader tfirst line x tnext line x tnext line x x x this routine will not return if i o error or eof x xvoid xoutput till dot output oname leader x file output entry s output file stream x char oname name of the output file x char leader the lead text for the first line x x char buf bufsiz input buffer x int count lines read x int done false true finished reading input x x instruct the user on how to input x printf nto end input enter a line with a single period n x x read lines until or eof x count x while done x issue the prompt x printf s t count leader x fflush stdout x x get the line x if get line buf bufsiz max col x printf nline too long please re enter n t x continue x x x note if was read x if strcmp buf n x done true x x x write line if we read something x if done x fprintf output s t s count leader buf x check io output oname eof not ok x x x x if no lines read at least output something x if count x fprintf output s t n leader x check io output oname eof not ok x x return x x x x col len determine the highest that a string would reach x x given a string this routine returns that a string would reach x if the string were printed at column tab stops are assumed x to start at x xint xcol len string x char string the string to examine x x int col current column x char p current char x x scan the string x for col p string p p n p x note the column shift x col p t col col x x if p n x col x x x return the highest column x return col x x x x check io check for eof or i o error on a stream x x does not return if eof or i o error x xvoid xcheck io stream name eof ok x file stream the stream to check x char name the name of this stream x int eof ok eof ok or eof not ok x x test for i o error x if ferror stream x fprintf stderr s error on s program name x perror x exit x x test for eof x else if eof ok eof not ok feof stream x fprintf stderr s eof on s n program name x exit x x return x x x x uuencode uuencode a file x x perform the uuencoding process identical to the process performed x by the uuencode utility x x this routine implements the algorithm described in the uuencode x bsd reno man page x xvoid xuuencode output oname infile iname umode uname x file output output file stream x char oname output filename x file infile input file stream x char iname input filename x int umode the mode to put on the uuencode file x char uname name to put on the uuencode file x x char buf uuencode len the uuencode buffer x int read len actual number of chars read x int val bit chunk from buf x char filler filler uuencode pad text x char p x x x output the initial uuencode header x x fprintf output begin o s n umode uname x check io output oname eof not ok x x x clear out the input buffer x x for p buf p buf sizeof buf sizeof buf p x p x x x x we will process uuencode len chars at a time forming x a single output line each time x x while read len fread buf sizeof buf uuencode len infile x x x the first character is the length character x x fputc uuencode read len output x check io output oname eof not ok x x x we will convert bits at a time thus we will convert x sets of bits into sets of uuencoded bits x x for p buf read len read len p x x bits to x val p x f x fputc uuencode val output x check io output oname eof not ok x x bits to x val p x p x f x fputc uuencode val output x check io output oname eof not ok x x bits to x val p x c p x x fputc uuencode val output x check io output oname eof not ok x x bits to x val p x f x fputc uuencode val output x check io output oname eof not ok x x x end of uuencode len line x fputc n output x check io output oname eof not ok x x x clear out the input buffer don t depend on bzero or memset x x for p buf p buf sizeof buf sizeof buf p x p x x x x check the last read on the input file x check io infile iname eof ok x x write end of uuencode file x fprintf output c nend n uuencode filler x check io output oname eof not ok x shar eof chmod mkentry c echo restore of mkentry c failed set wc c mkentry c wc c if test wc c then echo original size current size wc c fi obfuscate info echo x extracting obfuscate info text sed s x shar eof obfuscate info x obfuscated contest information x xcopyright c landon curt noll larry bassel xall rights reserved permission for personal education or non profit use is xgranted provided this this copyright and notice are included in its entirety xand remains unaltered all other uses must receive prior permission in writing xfrom both landon curt noll and larry bassel x xthe international obfuscated c code contest ioccc in the sprit of xco operation is willing mention other programming contents as space xpermits x xhow to have your contest included in this file x x if you wish the ioccc judges to include your contest in this file x send a request to x x judges toad com x x we request that contest descriptions be limited to lines and to x not exceed bytes we typically request that your contest x include a current description of the ioccc x x in order to be included in this file for given year we must x receive a current description no earlier than jan utc and x no later than feb utc agreement to publish your x contest must also be obtained prior to feb annual contests x that fail to submit a new entry will be dropped from this file x xofficial disclaimer pardon the officialese x x the contents noted below other than the ioccc are not affiliated x with the ioccc nor are they endorsed by the ioccc we reserve the x right to refuse to print information about a given contest x x the information below was provided by the particular contest x organizer s and printed by permission please contact the x contest organizer s directly regarding their contents x xwith that official notice given we present for your enjoyment the following xinformation about contents x x x x th international obfuscated c contest x x the original obfuscated contest x x obfuscate tr v cated cating cates a to render obscure x b to darken to confuse their emotions obfuscated x their judgment llat obfuscare to darken ob intensive x lat fuscare to darken fuscus dark obfuscation n x obfuscatory adj x x goals of the contest x x to write the most obscure obfuscated c program under the rules below x to show the importance of programming style in an ironic way x to stress c compilers with unusual code x to illustrate some of the subtleties of the c language x to provide a safe forum for poor c code x x the ioccc is the grandfather of usenet programming contests since x this contest demonstrated that a program that mearly works x correctly is not sufficient the ioccc has also done much to add x the arcane word obfuscated back into the english language x see the new hacker s dictionary by eric raymond x x you are strongly encouraged to read the new contest rules before x sending any entries the rules and sometimes the contest email x address itself change over time a valid entry one year may x be rejected in a later year due to changes in the rules the typical x start date for contests is in early march contest rules are normally not x finalized and posted until the beginning of the contest the typical x closing date for contests are in early may x x the contest rules are posted to comp unix wizards comp lang c x misc misc alt sources and comp sources d if you do not have access x to these groups or if you missed the early march posting you may x request a copy from the judges via email at x x judges toad com or sun uunet utzoo pyramid hoptoad judges x x previous contest winners are available via anonymous ftp from x ftp uu net under the directory pub ioccc x x x x th international obfuscated perl contest x by landon noll larry wall x x this content is being planned someday when landon larry are not too x busy they will actually get around to posting the first set of rules x x landon says yes i know that i said we would have a contest in x but other existing projects got in the way hopefully x something will be developed after nov x x x x nd international obfuscated postscript contest x jonathan monsarrat jgm cs brown edu x alena lacova alena nikhef nl x x a contest of programming skills and knowledge exclusively for the x postscript programming language its purpose x x to spread knowledge of postscript and its details x to applaud those with the best tricks x to prove that humans can beat those damnable machine generators at x their own game by writing the most obscure and mysterious postscript x programs ever x x winners will receive the fame and attention that goes with having their x program entry posted as a winner to programmers world wide x x the contest rules and results are available by ftp as x wilma cs brown edu pub postscript obfuscated shar or individually x in the obfuscated directory the judges will post the rules x in november to comp lang postscript on usenet and other places x send questions to jgm cs brown edu x x categories include best obfuscated postscript best artwork x most compact best interactive program most useful and x anything so unusual and creative that it deserves an award x x the judges will choose the winners of each category x x alena lacova is a system administrator at nikhef institute for high x energy and nuclear physics in the netherlands she is the author of x the postscript chaos programs which draw julia sets mandelbrot sets x and other kinds of fractal functions x x jonathan monsarrat is a graduate student from mit and brown university x in the u s a he is the faq maintainer for the usenet newsgroup x comp lang postscript and the author of the postscript zone and lametex x x shar eof chmod obfuscate info echo restore of obfuscate info failed set wc c obfuscate info wc c if test wc c then echo original size current size wc c fi exit sunnyvale residents vote landon noll for sunnyvale city council seat
comp.windows.x	x on intel based unix frequently asked questions faq archive name intel unix x faq last modified mar note this is a major re organization and replacement of my frequently asked questions about x faq list this article includes answers to i what options do i have for x software on my intel based unix system free options commercial options ii what is xfree and where do i get it what is xfree what oss are supported what video hardware is supported what about accelerated boards why doesn t xfree support color vga modes what other hardware or software requirements are there where can i get source for xfree where can i get binaries for xfree iv what general things should i know about running xfree installation directories configuration files determining vga dot clocks and monitor modes rebuilding reconfiguring the server from the link kit v what os specific things should i know about running xfree svr svr bsd linux mach vi what things should i know for building xfree from source vii is there anything special about building clients with xfree bsd compatibility library ansiccoptions this article does not include answers to general x questions since these are already covered by the x faq that is regularly posted by david b lewis faq craft uunet uu net if you have anything to add or change on the faq just let me know especially if you had a problem that someone else was able to help you with send changes to steve ecf toronto edu please put faq somewhere in the subject line so that my mail filter will put it in the correct mail folder please do not ask me questions that are not answered in the faq i do not have time to respond to these individually instead post your question to the net and send me the question and answer together when you get it frequently asked questions about x on intel based unix with answers i what options do i have for x software on my intel based unix system free options the best option is xfree which is an enhanced version of x any other version of x will have slower performance and will be more difficult to compile information on how to obtain xfree is listed below x is the port of the x server to system v that was done by thomas roell roell sgcs com it supports a wide variety of svga boards there are major free versions x is based on x r x is included in mit s x r distribution ie you don t need to patch it into the mit source any more x is the current commercial offering from sgcs see below commercial options metro link w mcnab road pompano beach fl fax email sales metrolink com summary os qnx svr svr sco unixware lynxos desqview x venix isc solaris pyramid sunos hw ega vga svga tiga targa a mach s wd fujistu matrox microfield graphics r other motif openlook xview xie imaging extension xv video extension audio drivers multi media sgcs snitily graphics consulting services brookgrove lane cupertino ca fax email info sgcs com or mips zok info summary os svr svr hw a ati ultra s diamond stealth svga other motif dual headed server consensys corporation pat booker rd universal city tx phone fax email info consensys com summary os consensys v consensys version of unix system v release hw x r server support for vga svga other moolit motif x r clients the santa cruz operation inc p o box santa cruz california sco unix fax email info sco com summary os odt odt sco unix v hw x r server support for svga a s tms x wd c xga assorted local bus see sco hardware compatabilty guide for actual card vendors other motif answer software consulting p o box columbus ohio xlab email sales x coher com summary os coherent r or greater hw works with any vesa compliant video note other commercial vendors including os vendors describing bundled software are welcome to submit summary information summary information such as the above ii what is xfree and where do i get it what is xfree xfree is an enhanced version of x which was distributed with x r this release consists of many bug fixes speed improvements and other enhancements here are the highlights of the enhancements the speedup package from glenn lai is an integral part of xfree selectable at run time via the xconfig file some speedups require an et based svga and others require a virtual screen width of the speedups suitable to the configuration are selected by default with a high quality et board vram this can yield up to improvement of the xstones benchmark over x the fx packages from jim tsillas are included as the default operating mode if speedup is not selected this mode is now equivalent in performance to x b x r and approximately faster than x support for localconn compile time selectable for server clients or both this support is for both svr and svr for svr with the advanced compatibility package local connections from sco xsight odt clients are supported drivers for ati and trident tvga c and tvga svga chipsets refer to the files readme ati and readme trident for details about the ati and trident drivers support for compressed bitmap fonts has been added thomas eberhardt s code from the contrib directory on export lcs mit edu type font code from mit contrib tape has been included and is compile time selectable there are contributed type fonts in the contrib directory on export lcs mit edu new configuration method which allows the server s drivers and font renderers to be reconfigured from both source and binary distributions integrated support for bsd mach and linux a monochrome version of the server which will run on generic vga cards is now included the following key features were added with the release of xfree they were not in xfree the monochrome server has been enhanced to do bank switching of available svga memory to allow virtual screens up to x see the x manual page for more information support for the hercules mono card has been added to the monochrome server and with it the ability to support a two headed server one vga and one hercules so far this has only been tested on svr it is also reported to work under linux svr shared libraries tested under isc svr and support for svr there are some special considerations to consider due to new usl bugs see the readme svr file for more information support for ps mice and logitech mouseman trackman some versions of these devices were not previously compatible a new tutorial on how to develop correct video card and monitor timing data written by eric raymond derived from previous documentation and a lot of experimentation greatly improved support for international keyboards including implementation of the compose key functionality found on many vendor servers see the x keybd manual page for more information the accuracy with which the server detects svga pixel clocks has been improved and the timings are now stored at accuracies of mhz users may want to consider removing an existing clocks line from their xconfig file and re probing using the new server many enhancements in error handling and parsing of the xconfig configuration file error messages are much more informative and intuitive and more validation is done there are many new options that can be enabled in the xconfig file see the x manual page for more information on the format of this file plus a number of other small things refer to the changelog file in the source distribution for full details also included are a tutorial on monitor timing by eric raymond and the current x mode database and a sample xdm configuration by david wexelblat what oss are supported xfree supports svr consensys v svr microport dell esix isc at t mst consensys uhc svr isc at t linux mach bsd bsd is not supported but it should work the most active bsd person is greg lehey grog lemis de note that esix d and sco are not supported yet but anyone should feel free to submit patches if you are interested in tackling this send mail to xfree physics su oz au what video hardware is supported at this time xfree supports the following svga chipsets tseng et tseng et paradise pvga western digital wd c wd c wd c these are supersets of the pvga and use its driver genoa gvga trident tvga c tvga ati all of the above are supported in both color and monochrome modes with the exception of the ati chipsets which are only supported in color mode the monochrome server also supports generic vga cards using k of video memory in a single bank and the hercules card on the et only k of video memory is supported for the monochrome server and the gvga has not been tested with more than k it appears that some of the svga card manufacturers are going to non traditional mechanisms for selecting pixel clock frequencies to avoid having to modify the server to accommodate these schemes xfree adds support for using an external program to select the pixel clock this allows programs to be written as new mechanisms are discovered refer to the readme clkprog file for information on how these programs work if you need to write one if you do develop such a program the xfree team would be interested in including it with future xfree releases if you are purchasing new hardware for the purpose of using xfree it is suggested that you purchase an et based board such as the orchid prodesigner iis avoid recent diamond boards xfree will not work with them because diamond won t provide programming details in fact the xfree project is actively not supporting new diamond products as long as such policies remain in effect contributions of code will not be accepted because of the potential liabilities if you would like to see this change tell diamond about it some people have asked if xfree would work with local bus or eisa video cards theoretically the means of communication between the cpu and the video card is irrelevant to xfree compatibility it could be isa eisa or local bus what should matter is the chipset on the video card unfortunately the developers don t have a lot of access to eisa or vlb machines so this is largely an untested theory however we have yet to see any reports of things not working on one of these buses and we have several reports of xfree working fine on them what about accelerated boards at this time there is no support in xfree for accelerated boards like the s ati ultra a tiga etc this support is available in commercial products from sgcs and metrolink for svr and svr an s server is available for bsd and linux contact hasty netcom com for bsd or jon robots ox ac uk for linux a beta a server is available for linux contact martin cs unc edu or jon robots ox ac uk note these servers are not part of xfree why doesn t xfree support color vga modes the reason that this is not supported is the way vga implements the color modes in color modes each byte of frame buffer memory contains pixel but the color modes are implemented as bit planes each byte of frame buffer memory contains bit from each of each of pixels and there are four such planes the mit frame buffer code is not designed to deal with this if vga handled color modes by packing bit pixels into each byte the mit code could be modified to support this or it already may i m not sure but for the vga way of doing things a complete new frame buffer implementation is required some beta testers are looking into this but nothing is yet available from the project what other hardware or software requirements are there obviously a supported svga board and os are required to run x efficiently mb of memory should be considered a minimum the various binary releases take mb of disk space depending on the os e g whether or not it supports shared libraries to build from sources at least mb of free disk space will be required although mb should be considered a comfortable lower bound where can i get source for xfree source patches for the current version based on x r pl from mit are available via anonymous ftp from export lcs mit edu under contrib xfree ftp physics su oz au under xfree ftp win tue nl under pub xfree for the rest of this faq these location will be called ftp refer to the readme file under the specified directory for information on which files you need to get to build your distribution where can i get binaries for xfree binaries are available via anonymous ftp from ftp physics su oz au svr binaries under xfree svr ftp win tue nl svr binaries under pub xfree svr ferkel ucsb edu svr binaries under pub svr xfree stasi bradley edu svr binaries under pub xfree svr blancmange ma utexas edu svr isc binaries under pub isc ftp prz tu berlin de svr isc binaries under pub pc isc xfree tsx mit edu linux binaries under pub linux packages x agate berkeley edu bsd binaries under pub bsd ports xfree ftp cs uwm edu mach binaries under i ensure that you are getting xfree some of these sites may archive older releases as well each binary distribution will contain a readme file that describes what files you need to take from the archive and which compile time option selections were made when building the distribution iv what general things should i know about running xfree installation directories the top level installation directory is specified by the projectroot usr x by default variable in config site def binaries include files and libraries are installed in projectroot bin include lib this can be changed when rebuilding from sources and can be modified via symbolic links for those oss that support them this directory is nonstandard and was chosen this way to allow xfree to be installed alongside a commercial vendor supplied x implementation configuration files the xfree server reads a configuration file xconfig on startup the search path contents and syntax for this file are documented in the server manpage which should be consulted before asking questions determining vga dot clocks and monitor modes david e wexelblat dwex mtgzfs att com maintains a database of known clock settings for vga cards and monitor settings the database is installed in usr x lib x etc modedb txt and is in the source tree under mit server ddx x etc this database is also available from him for the latest copy and is kept on export lcs mit edu in contrib x modedb z which is updated occasionally obtain a copy of this database it just might have the settings you need if you create new settings please send them to david for inclusion in the database if this doesn t help you the videomodes doc by eric raymond file with xfree contains tutorials on how to come up with these timings it may be helpful to start with settings that almost work and use this description to get them right when you do send the information to david wexelblat for inclusion in the database note the old clock exe program is not supported any more and is completely unnecessary if you need to determine dot clock values for a new board remove the clocks line from your xconfig file if present and start the server the server will probe for clocks itself and print them out you can use these values to put a clocks line into your xconfig file which is not necessary but will speed up starting the server in the future rebuilding reconfiguring the server from the link kit if you have installed the server binary link kit it is possible to reconfigure the drivers and font renderers in the server this is fully explained in the readme file that is available with the link kit v what os specific things should i know about running xfree first of all the server must be installed suid root mode svr why won t my xterm run properly if your kernel is not built with the consem module you should define consem no in you environment otherwise xterm won t run csh users should use setenv consem no the esix console driver patch is known to cause keymapping problems with xfree it recommended that this patch not be installed alternatively they keymap can be fixed with xmodmap svr make sure you look at ftp readme isc if that s what you are running bsd make sure you look at ftp readme bsd also a separate bsd faq is maintained by richard murphey rich rice edu the latest version should be available in the file xfree bsd faq at the following ftp sites agate berkeley edu pub bsd ports xfree wuarchive wustl edu mirrors bsd ports xfree grasp univ lyon fr pub bsd ports xfree linux you must be running linux pl or greater and have the gcc jump libraries installed make sure the binaries x x mono xload and xterm are setuid root if your kernel doesn t have tcp support compiled in you ll have to run the server as x pn the default startup configuration assumes that tcp is not available if it is change the two files usr x bin startx and usr x lib x xdm xservers removing the pn argument to x make sure dev console is either a link to dev tty or has the major number minor number also note that if dev console is not owned by the user running x then xconsole and xterm will not permit console output redirection xdm will properly change the owner but startx won t when running xdm from rc local you will need to provide it with a tty for example xdm dev console for more detailed information please read the file readme present with the distribution on tsx mit edu mach make sure you look at ftp readme mach vi what things should i know for building xfree from source this section has been removed from the faq since it is fully explained in ftp readme and the os specific readmes please look at those files for information on building xfree vii is there anything special about building clients with xfree bsd compatibility library a lot of clients make use of bsd functions like bcopy etc the default configuration files are set up to link with libxbsd a which contains emulation for bcopy bzero bcmp ffs random seed a better way of providing the b functions is to include x xfuncs h in source files that call them xfuncs h provides macro definitions for these in terms of the sysv mem functions if you are linking with a vendor supplied library which calls some of these functions then you should link with libxbsd a ansiccoptions this is something that was added to allow a developer to get rid of the ansi ness defined in the default ccoptions without having to rewrite the entire ccoptions line for example with stock mit you d see something like ccoptions ansi o fwritable strings and to get rid of the ansi ness the developer would have to put ccoptions o fwritable strings in his imakefile with this change you would see a default of ansiccoptions ansi ccoptions o fwritable strings and all the developer would have to put in the imakefile is ansiccoptions to get rid of the ansi ness many x clients will die a horrible death with ansi the effect is even more dramatic in practice because ccoptions is actually quite complex the other issue is that one must add ansiccoptions ansiccoptions to a passcdebugflags definition xfree contact information ongoing development planning and support is coordinated by the xfree core team at this time the core team consists of the original gang of four david dawes dawes physics su oz au glenn lai glenn cs utexas edu jim tsillas jtsilla damon ccs northeastern edu david wexelblat dwex mtgzfs att com those supporting non sysv operating systems robert baron robert baron ernst mach cs cmu edu mach rich murphey rich rice edu bsd orest zborowski obz kodak com linux e mail sent to xfree physics su oz au will reach all of the core team thanks to all the people who already sent me corrections or additions especially david wexelblat one of the major contributors of updates steve kotsopoulos p eng mail steve ecf toronto edu systems analyst bitnet steve ecf utoronto bitnet engineering computing facility uucp uunet utai ecf steve university of toronto phone
comp.windows.x	comp windows x intrinsics frequently asked questions faq archive name xt faq version id faq xt v ware exp the x toolkit intrinsics f a q a monthly posting this article contains the answers to some frequently asked questions faq from comp windows x about the x toolkit intrinsics to submit questions preferably with an answer send email to ware cis ohio state edu many faqs including this one are available on the archive site rtfm mit edu in the directory pub usenet news answers the name under which a faq is archived appears in the archive name line at the top of the article this faq is archived as xt faq all code fragments are public domain contents xt glossary software versions related faq s why does my application core dump when i use signals alarms cthreads how do i use a different visual than the default which visual should an application use why do only shell widgets have a visual which visual depth and colormap do shells inherit i ve done all the above and i still get a badmatch error why why doesn t my widget get destroyed when i call xtdestroywidget how do i exit but still execute the destroycallbacks how do i resize a shell widget why can t xtappaddinput handle files what good books and magazines are there on xt what widgets are available what alternatives to the intrinsics are there how do i pass a float value to xtsetvalues how do i write a resource converter how do i open multiple displays what changed from r to r to r where are the resources loaded from what order are callbacks executed in how do i know if a widget is visible how do i reparent a widget in xt i e xtreparentwidget why use xtmalloc xtfree etc how to debug an xt application why don t xtaddinput xtaddtimeout and xtaddworkproc work what is and how can i implement drag and drop xt glossary o the xt intrinsics implement an object oriented interface to c code to allow useful graphical components to be created included with this are classes that provide the base functionality object rectobj core composite constraint shell overrideshell wmshell etc the terms xt and intrinsics are used interchangeably however they are used very precisely to mean a specific library of the x window system in particular it does not include the athena motif olit or any other widget set without further widgets the intrinsics are not especially useful o a widget refers to a user interface abstraction created via xt the precise use is any object that is a subclass of the core class it is used loosely to refer to anything that is a subclass of the object class although these are more accurately called windowless widgets or gadgets o xlib is the c interface to the x protocol it is one layer below the xt intrinsics typically a widget uses relatively few xlib functions because xt provides most such services although an understanding of xlib helps with problems software versions the following are the latest versions of xt based software software version released next expected x r patch none x r patch athena widgets see x r motif olit xtra xw x r none xcu x r none fwf related faq s david b lewis uunet craft faq maintains the faq on x it is posted monthly on comp windows x and located on export in contrib faq liam r e quin lee sq sq com posts an faq list on open look to comp windows x jan newmarch jan pandonia canberra edu au posts an faq list on motif to comp windows x motif peter ware ware cis ohio state edu posts an faq list for comp windows x intrinsics it is on export in contrib faq xt why does my application core dump when i use signals alarms cthreads in brief xlib xt and most widget sets have no mutual exclusion for critical sections any interrupt handler is likely to leave one of the above libraries in an inconsistent state such as all the appropriate flags not yet set dangling pointers in the middle of a list traversal etc note that the ansi c standard points out that behavior of a signal handler is undefined if the signal handler calls any function other than signal itself so this is not a problem specific to xlib and xt the posix specification mentions other functions which may be called safely but it may not be assumed that these functions are called by xlib or xt functions the only safe way to deal with signals is to set a flag in the interrupt handler this flag later needs to be checked either by a work procedure or a timeout callback it is incorrect to add either of these in the interrupt handler as another note it is dangerous to add a work procedure that never finishes this effectively preempts any work procedures previously added and so they will never be called another option is to open a pipe tell the event loop about the read end using xtappaddinput and then the signal handler can write a byte to the write end of the pipe for each signal however this could deadlock your process if the pipe fills up why don t the intrinsics deal with this problem primarily because it is supposed to be a portable layer to any hardware and operating system is that a good enough reason i don t think so note the article in the x journal and the example in o reilly volume are in error how do i use a different visual than the default this requires a more complicated answer than it should a window has three things that are visual specific the visual colormap and border pixmap all widgets have their own colormap and borderpixmap resource only shell widgets have visual resources another questions deals with why shells have a visual the default value of these resources is copyfromparent which does exactly what it says in the shell widget copyfromparent gets evalulated as defaultvisualofscreen and defaultcolormapofscreen when any one of the three resources is not properly set a badmatch error occurs when the window is created they are not properly set because each of the values depends on the visual being used how to get this to work there are two parts to the answer the first is if you want an application to start with a particular visual and the second is if you want a particular shell within an application to start with a different visual the second is actually easier because the basic information you need is available the first is a little harder because you ll need to initialize much of the toolkit yourself in order to determine the needed information some sample code to start up an application using something other than the default visual to compile cc g visual c o visual lxaw lxmu lxt lxext lx lm to run visual geometry x depth visual staticcolor fg blue bg yellow you need to move the mouse to get the particular visuals colormap to install include x intrinsic h include x stringdefs h include x shell h typedef struct visual visual int depth optionsrec optionsrec options xtresource resources visual visual xtrvisual sizeof visual xtoffsetof optionsrec visual xtrimmediate null depth depth xtrint sizeof int xtoffsetof optionsrec depth xtrimmediate null xrmoptiondescrec desc visual visual xrmoptionseparg null depth depth xrmoptionseparg null int main argc argv int argc char argv xtappcontext app the application context widget top toplevel widget display dpy display char xargv saved argument vector int xargc saved argument count colormap colormap created colormap xvisualinfo vinfo template for find visual xvisualinfo vinfo list returned list of visuals int count number of matchs only arg args cardinal cnt char name test char class test save the command line arguments xargc argc xargv char xtmalloc argc sizeof char bcopy char argv char xargv argc sizeof char the following creates a dummy toplevel widget so we can retrieve the appropriate visual resource cnt top xtappinitialize app class desc xtnumber desc argc argv string null args cnt dpy xtdisplay top cnt xtgetapplicationresources top options resources xtnumber resources args cnt cnt if options visual options visual defaultvisualofscreen xtscreen top xtsetarg args cnt xtnvisual options visual cnt now we create an appropriate colormap we could use a default colormap based on the class of the visual we could examine some property on the rootwindow to find the right colormap we could do all sorts of things colormap xcreatecolormap dpy rootwindowofscreen xtscreen top options visual allocnone xtsetarg args cnt xtncolormap colormap cnt now find some information about the visual vinfo visualid xvisualidfromvisual options visual vinfo list xgetvisualinfo dpy visualidmask vinfo count if vinfo list count xtsetarg args cnt xtndepth vinfo list depth cnt xfree xpointer vinfo list xtdestroywidget top now create the real toplevel widget xtsetarg args cnt xtnargv xargv cnt xtsetarg args cnt xtnargc xargc cnt top xtappcreateshell char null class applicationshellwidgetclass dpy args cnt display the application and loop handling all events xtrealizewidget top xtappmainloop app return which visual should an application use this is a point that can be argued about but one opinion is there is no way for an application to know the appropriate visual it has to be specified by the user if you disagree with this then your application probably falls into the category of always using the default visual or it is hardware specific and expects some particular visual such as bit truecolor with an overlayplane extension or some such why no application runs in isolation depending on the way a server allocates resources i may not always want your application to run in truecolor mode if it is going to mess up my other applications i may be very upset if it chooses to run in greyscale instead of psuedocolor or just monochrome as an example on a low end color sun server there are many different possible visuals monochrome entry colormap static gray static color and a truecolor the sgi iris s offer all the above plus bit truecolor bit truecolor an overlay plane why do only shell widgets have a visual this is strictly by convention it makes it possible for an arbitrary widget to know that the visual it uses can be found by looking for the shell widget that is its ancestor and obtaining the visual of that shell a widget can have its own visual resource if it does it must have its own realize method to use the visual when it calls xcreatewindow you should also make this a resource that can be obtained with xtgetvalues so other widgets can find it a reasonable value is probably xtnvisual which visual depth and colormap do shells inherit the default value for these resources are set to copyfromparent this is interpreted as the defaultcolormapofscreen defaultdepthofscreen and the default visual of the screen if the widget has no parent i e it is an applicationshellwidgetclass and the root of your widget tree if the parent of the widget is not null then the shell copies colormap and depth from its parent and uses copyfromparent as the visual i ve done all the above and i still get a badmatch error why some resource converters improperly cache references this was especially true of x r and earlier versions of motif why doesn t my widget get destroyed when i call xtdestroywidget see section of the xt specification it eventually does get destroyed just not immediately the intrinsics destroy a widget in a two phase process first it and all of its children have a flag set that indicate it is being destroyed it is then put on a list of widgets to be destroyed this way any pending x events or further references to that widget can be cleaned up before the memory is actually freed the second phase is then performed after all callbacks event handlers and actions have completed before checking for the next x event at this point the list is traversed and each widget s memory is actually free d among other things as some further caveats trivia the widgets may be destroyed if the intrinsics determine that they have no further references to the widgets on the list if so then the phase destruction occurs immediately also if nested event loops are used widgets placed on the destroy list before entering the inner event loop are not destroyed until returning to the outer event loop how do i exit but still execute the destroycallbacks the problem is if a simple and entirely reasonable approach to exiting an application is used such as calling exit directly then a widget may not have a chance to clean up any external state such as open sockets temporary files allocated x resources etc this code for simplicity reasons assumes only a single toplevel widget widget toplevelget gw widget gw widget to find toplevel widget top for top gw xtparent top top xtparent top empty return top void exitcallback gw closure call data widget gw widget xtpointer closure data the app specified xtpointer call data widget specific data widget toplevel toplevel toplevelget gw xtunmapwidget toplevel make it disappear quickly xtdestroywidget toplevel exit one can see that the above code exit s immediately after destroying the toplevel widget the trouble is the phase destruction may never occur this works for most widgets and most applications but will not work for those widgets that have any external state you might think that since it works now it will always work but remember that part of the reason an object oriented approach is used is so one can be ignorant of the implementation details for each widget which means that the widget may change and someday require that some external state is cleaned up by the destroy callbacks one alternative is to modify exitcallback to set a global flag and then test for that flag in a private event loop however private event loops are frowned upon because it tends to encourage sloppy and difficult to maintain practices try the following code instead include x intrinsic h extern widget toplevelget if needfunctionprototypes widget gw endif extern boolean exitworkproc if needfunctionprototypes xtpointer closure endif extern void exitcallback if needfunctionprototypes widget gw xtpointer closure xtpointer call data endif widget toplevelget gw widget gw widget to find toplevel widget top for top gw xtparent top top xtparent top empty return top void exitcallback gw closure call data widget gw widget xtpointer closure data the app specified xtpointer call data widget specific data widget toplevel toplevel toplevelget gw xtunmapwidget toplevel make it disappear quickly xtdestroywidget toplevel xtappaddworkproc xtwidgettoapplicationcontext gw exitworkproc xtpointer null boolean exitworkproc closure xtpointer closure exit notreached exitcallback adds a work procedure that will get called when the application is next idle which happens after all the events are processed and the destroy callbacks are executed how do i resize a shell widget after it is realized one doesn t resize a shell widget the proper thing is to resize the currently managed child of the shell widget using xtsetvalues the geometry change is then propagated to the shell which asks the window manager which may or may not allow the request however the shell must have the resource xtnallowshellresize set to true otherwise it will not even ask the window manager to grant the request and the shell will not resize to change the position of a shell use xtsetvalues on the shell not the child and within the limits of the window manager it should be granted why can t xtappaddinput handle files it does however unix semantics for when i o is ready for a file does not fit most peoples intuitive model in unix terms a file descriptor is ready for reading whenever the read call would not block ignoring the setting of optional flags that indicate not to block this works as expected for terminals sockets and pipes for a file the read will always return but the return indicates an eof i e no more data the result is the code in the intrinsics always calls the input handler because it always thinks something is about to be read the culprit is the select system call or on sysv based os s it is the poll system call how to get around this on a unix system the best approach is to use another process to check for available input on the file use a pipe to connect the application with this other process and pass the file descriptor from the pipe to xtappaddinput a suitable program on bsd systems is tail f filename it s rumored that select on some systems is not completely reliable in particular ibm aix this is one where it would work for a while several thousand times and then stop until some other event woke it up this seemed to be the result of a race condition in the kernel ibm claims to have a fix for this pyramid doesn t work at all ultrix and possibly others where pipes are implemented as sockets wasn t completely broken but although the writing side wrote in byte blocks the reading side received it all broken up as if it was being put into the pipe a byte at a time you can waste a lot of time by reading small blocks get raound it by detecting the situation and having select ignore the pipe for mseconds by then it had been given the whole block note that all the above descriptions used unix terminology such as read file descriptor pipes etc this is an os dependent area and may not be identical on all systems however the intrinsic designers felt it was a common enough operation that it should be included with part of the toolkit why they didn t also deal with signals at this point i don t know what good books and magazines are there on xt i have a favorite that is the definitive reference to my perspective it offers a reasonable introduction but also goes into the full details of the intrinsics when i started using it i was already familiar with xt and the concepts behind it so newcomers may or may not find it useful i ve always found it accurate and complete which means its a pages asente paul j and swick ralph r x window system toolkit the complete programmer s guide and specification digital press isbn order number ey e e dp and by prentice hall isbn also available through dec direct at digital the other book i commonly recomend to novices is young doug the x window system applications and programming with xt motif version prentice hall isbn isbn and of course o reilly has an entire series of manuals on x and xt o reilly ordering is in particular volume is an xt reference done in manual page style the rd edition is extensively overhauled and goes far beyond the mit manual pages i m finding it very useful in particular the permutted index and references to other manual pages help a great deal in chasing down related information i read two periodicals the x resource and the the x journal these are the only two dealing specifically with x the x resource is published quarterly by o reilly with one of the issues being the mit x consortium technical conference proceedings there is no advertising i ve found it informative with pretty good depth for orders call or email cathyr ora com for editorial matters email adrian ora com table of contents are posted at math utah edu in ftp pub tex bib in tex form and on ftp uu net in ftp published oreilly xresource in ascii form the x journal is a bimonthly trade rag with lots of advertising the articles are informative and oriented toward a less technical audience i read it more to see what s going on then with an expectation of learning a great deal but remember i represent a fairly small percentage of people also they have a pretty good collection of people on the advisory board and as columnists call what widgets are available there are three popular widget sets athena the set provided with x this is sufficient for most purposes but is on the ugly side recently a d look is available for ftp on export lcs mit edu contrib xaw d tar z motif from osf available for a license fee and commonly shipped on many workstation vendors platforms almost everyone but sun it looks good and works well but personally i think it is poorly implemented olit the open look intrinsics toolkit is a set of widgets implementing sun s open look specification developed by at t i ve never used it so can t comment on its quality i ve heard rumours that it is a pain to actually get in addition the following collection of widgets are also available xtra a library of widgets for sale from graphical software technology it includes bar graph stacked bar graph line graph pie chart xy plot hypertext help spreadsheet and data entry form widgets i ve never seen them so i can t comment fwf the free widget foundation is attempting to collect a set of freely available widgets included are a pixmap editor filedialog and a few others the current set of widgets can be obtained via anonymous ftp from the machine a cs uiuc edu in the file pub fwf shar z xcu the cornell university widgets from gene dykes one of the early widget sets released provides a nice appearance for buttons and has a mini command language probably not so widely used xs the sony widget set this was around during r days but seemed to disappear it looked like it had promise xw the hp widgets the precursor to motif originally written for r there exists diffs to get it to work under r r again a pretty good widget set but has more or less died the precursor to this was the xray toolkit which was originally implemented for x r and apparently provided much experience for the designers of xt xo a widget set i m working on it s still primitive but you can give it a try in archive cis ohio state edu pub xo the following specialized widgets are also available tbl implements a tabular layout of widgets supports motif widgets as children part of wcl plots the athena plotting widgets not the athena widgets contact gnb bby oz au or joe athena mit edu what alternatives to the intrinsics are there name language vendor xview c sun oi c parcplace interviews c stanford tcl tk c sprite berkeley edu however much i like c and admire the skill in both designing and implementing the intrinsics hopefully some alternative will develop in the next years that uses an object oriented language keep your eyes open and expect some change about the same time a language other than c starts gaining acceptance how do i pass a float value to xtsetvalues first what is going wrong is the structure for an arg is essentially typdef struct string name long value arg and the code arg arg xtsetarg arg name expands to arg arg arg name name arg value you can see that with normal c type conversions the arg value gets the integer instead of the floating point value when the value is copied into the widget resource the bit pattern is wildly different than that required for a floating point value so how to get around this the following macro is from the athena widgets document and i am now recomending it over the previous suggestions define xtsetfloatarg arg n d if sizeof float sizeof xtargval xtsetarg arg n d else xtargval ld xtargval d xtsetarg arg n ld how do i write a resource converter courtesy of rich thomson rthomson dsd es com the following discussion of resource converters assumes r or r intrinsics resource converters changed between r and r to allow for destructors and caching of converted values there are several main types of resource converters string to data type data type to string data type to data type i string to data type usually a string to data type converter has a fixed set of strings that will be converted to data type values this is most often used to map enumerated names to enumerated values name value true false in this case the string to data type converter needs to compare the resource value to the list of fixed strings this is most readily accomplished by the use of the quark mechanism of the resource manager the resource value is turned into a quark which is a unique representation of the string that fits into a single word then the resource quark is compared against the quarks for the fixed strings representing the enumerated values if there are many enumerated strings in the converter or many converters each with a small number of enumeration strings then a global initialization routine might be used to turn all the resource strings into quarks that way the first time one of these converters is used the strings will be turned into quarks and held in static variables for use in the next invocation of one of the converters ii data type to string this type of converter is slightly easier than the string to data type converters since the use of quarks isn t necessary instead the data type value is simply converted to a string value probably by the use of sprintf data type to string converters are useful for applications that wish to convert an internal data type value into a string so that they can write out a valid resource specification to a file this mechanism can be used to provide a snapshot of application state into a file this snapshot can be used to restore the program to a known state via the usual x resource database mechanisms if you are taking the trouble to write a string to data type converter it isn t much extra effort to write the data type to string converter writing both at the same time helps to ensure that they are consistent iii data type to data type this type of converter is used to convert an existing data type value to another data type for instance an x pixel value can be converted to an rgb data type that contains separate fields for red green and blue the type signature for a resource converter is as follows typedef boolean xttypeconverter display xrmvalueptr cardinal xrmvalueptr xrmvalueptr xtpointer display dpy xrmvalueptr args cardinal num args xrmvalueptr fromval xrmvalueptr toval xtpointer converter data when the converter is invoked the fromval argument points to the source x resource manager value and the toval argument points to the destination x resource manager value the converter data argument is an opaque pointer to some converter specific data that is specified when the converter is registered the args and num args arguments allow extra information to be passed to the converter when it is invoked for instance the pixel to rgb structure converter discussed above would need colormap and visual arguments in which to lookup the pixel to obtain the rgb values corresponding to that pixel care must be taken with the toval argument an xrmvalue has the following type definition and specifies a size and location for a converted value typedef struct unsigned int size caddr t addr xrmvalue xrmvalueptr when the converter is invoked the address may point to a location of the given size for the converted value or the location can be null in the former case the converter should ensure that the size of the destination area is large enough to handle the converted value if the destination area is not large enough then the converter should set the size to the amount of space needed and return false the caller can then ensure that enough space is allocated and reinvoke the converter if the size is large enough then the converter can simply copy the converted value into the space given and return true if the location is null then the converter can assign the location to the address of a static variable containing the converted value and return true when writing a group of converters this code is often repeated and it becomes convenient to define a macro define done var type if toval addr if toval size sizeof type toval size sizeof type return false else type toval addr var else toval addr caddr t var toval size sizeof type return true define donestr str if toval addr toval size sizeof string toval size sizeof string return false else toval addr caddr t str toval size sizeof string return true inside the converter it is a good idea to perform a little safety checking on the num args and args arguments to ensure that your converter is being called properly once you have written your converter you need to register it with the intrinsics the intrinsics invokes resource converters when creating widgets and fetching their resource values from the resource database to register a converter with a single application context use xtappsettypeconverter void xtappsettypeconverter context from to converter args num args cache destructor xtappcontext context string from string to xttypeconverter converter xtconvertarglist args cardinal num args xtcachetype cache xtdestructor destructor to register a converter with all application contexts use xtsettypeconverter void xtsettypeconverter from to converter args num args cache destructor string from string to xttypeconverter converter xtconvertarglist args cardinal num args xtcachetype cache xtdestructor destructor in the r intrinsics there were the routines xtappaddconverter and xtaddconverter these have been superseded by xtappsettypeconverter and xtsettypeconverter whenever possible the newer routines should be used when a converter is registered with the intrinsics a cache argument specifies how converted resource values are to be cached xtcachenone don t cache any converted values xtcacheall cache all converted values xtcachebydisplay cache converted values on a per display basis caching converted values that require a round trip to the server is a good idea for instance string to pixel conversions the destructor argument is a routine that is invoked then the resource is destroyed either because its cached reference count has been decremented to zero or because the widget owning the value is being destroyed xtdestructor has the following type definition typedef void xtdestructor xtappcontext xrmvalueptr xtpointer xrmvalueptr cardinal xtappcontext context xrmvalueptr to xtpointer converter data xrmvalueptr args cardinal num args the destructor is invoked to free any auxiliary storage associated with the to argument but does not actually free the storage pointed to by the to argument itself to addr the destructor is passed the extra arguments that were passed to the converter when the conversion was performed for instance colormap and visual arguments for the string to pixel converter since the destructor would need to free the allocated pixel from the colormap as well as the private data passed in when the converter was registered sample converter code can be found in the following files in the mit r distribution mit lib xt converters c contrib lib pext converters c contrib lib pext converters h how do i open multiple displays see multi user application software using xt the x resource issue summer by oliver jones for a complete coverage of the issues involved most of this answer is based on that article in a nutshell one uses xtopendisplay to add each display to a single application context and then xtclosedisplay to shutdown each display and remove it from the application context the real problems occur when trying to close down a display this can happen ways user selects a quit button on one of the displays user has window manager send a wm delete window message server disconnect possibly from a killclient message server shutdown crash or network failure i ll assume you can deal gracefully with since it is merely a problem of translating a widget to a display and removing that display if not then read the oliver jones article the third one is difficult to handle the following is based on the oliver jones article and i include it here because it is a difficult problem the difficulty arises because the xlib design presumed that an i o error is always unrecoverable and so fatal this is essentially true for a single display x based application but not true for a multiple display program or an application that does things other than display information on an x server when an x i o error occurs the i o error handler is called and if it returns then an exit happens the only way around this is to use setjmp longjmp to avoid returning to the i o error handler the following code fragment demonstrates this include setjmp h jmp buf xiorecover void xiohandler dpy display dpy destroydisplay dpy longjmp xiorecover main if setjmp xiorecover xsetioerrorhandler xiohandler xtappmainloop app context the destroydisplay is something that given a display pointer can go back to the application specific data and perform any necessary cleanup it should also call xtclosedisplay for those of you unfamiliar with setjmp longjmp when setjmp is first called it returns a and save s enough information in the jmp buf that a latter execution of longjmp can return the program to the same state as if the setjmp was just executed the return value of this second setjmp is the value of the second argument to longjmp there are several caveats about using these but for this purpose it is adequate some other problems you might run into are resource converters that improperly cache resources the most likely symptoms are xlib errors such as badcolor badatom or badfont there may be problems with the total number of displays you can open since typically only a limited number of file descriptors are available with being a typical value you may also run into authorization problems when trying to connect to a display there was much discussion in comp windows x about this topic in november of robert scheifler posted an article which basically said this is the way it will be and xlib will not change what changed from r to r to r this addresses only changes in the intrinsics first the general changes for each release are described then a certainly incomplete list of new functions added and others that are now deprecated are listed brevity is a primary goal much of the following information is retrieved from chapter of the mit xt intrinsics manual and from o reilly volume rd edition from r to r addition of gadgets windowless widgets new resource type converter interface to handle cacheing and additional data variable argument list interface define xtspecificationrelease added with this release wmshellpart toplevelshellpart transientshellpart changed incompatibly core initialize core set values added arglist and count parameters event handlers had continue to dispatch parameter added core set values almost specification changed core compress exposure changed to an enumerated data type from boolean core class inited changed to enumerated data type from boolean constraint get values hook added to extension record core initialize hook obsolete as info is passed to core initialize shell root geometry manager added to extension record core set values hook obsolete as info is passed to core set values calling xtquerygeometry must store complete geometry added unrealizecallback xttranslatecoords actually works under r from r to r psuedo resource basetranslation added searching for app default and other files made more flexible customization resource added per screen resource database support permanently allocated strings permanetly allocated strings required for several class fields the args argument to xtappinitialize xtvaappinitialize xtopendisplay xtdisplayinitialize and xtinitialize were changed from cardinal to int many performance improvements this is summarized from the article xt performance improvements in release by gabe beged dov in the x resource issue xrmstringtoquark augmented with xrmpermstringtoquark to avoid string copies several fields in the class record are indicated as needing permanent strings using an array of strings for resources callback lists redesigned to use less memory translation manager redesigned and rewritten so it takes less memory translation tables merges are faster cache of action bindings keycode to keysyms are cached better sharing of gc s with modifiable fields window to widget translation uses less space and faster does not malloc space for widget name since quark is available widget space is allocated to include the constraints over several example programs about a reduction in memory usage functions new with r xtallocategc sharable gc with modifiable fields xtgetactionlist get the action table of a class xtscreendatabase return resource database for a screen xtsetlanguageproc register language procedure called to set locale functions new with r xtappaddactionhook procedure to call before every action xtappinitialize lots of initialization work xtappreleasecacherefs decrement cache reference count for converter xtappsetfallbackresources specify default resources xtappsettypeconverter register a new style converter xtcallcallbacklist directly execute a callback list xtcallconverter invoke a new style converter xtcallbackreleasecacheref release a cached resource value xtcallbackreleasecachereflist release a list of cached resource values xtconvertandstore find and call a resource converter xtdirectconvert invoke old style converter xtdisplayofobject return the display xtdisplaystringconversionwarning issue a warning about conversion xtfindfile find a file xtgetactionkeysym retrieve keysym modifies for this action xtgetapplicationnameandclass return name and class xtgetconstraintresourcelist get constraints for a widget xtgetkeysymtable return keycode to keysym mapping table xtgetmulticlicktime read the multi click time xtgetselectionrequest retrieve the selectionrequest event xtgetselectionvalueincremental obtain the selection value incrementally xtgetselectionvaluesincremental obtain the selection value incrementally xtinitializewidgetclass initialize a widget class manually xtinserteventhanlder register event handler before after others xtinsertraweventhandler register event handler without modify input mask xtisobject test if subclass of object xtisrectobj test if subclass of rectobj xtkeysymtokeycodelist return list of keycodes xtlasttimestampprocessed retrieve most recent event time xtmenupopdown action for popping down a widget xtmenupopup action for popping up a widget xtoffsetof macro for structure offsets xtownselectionincremental make selection data availabe incrementally xtpoupspringloaded map a spring loaded popup xtregistergrabaction indicate action procedure needs a passive grab xtremoveactiohhook remove function called after every action xtresolvepathname find a file xtscreenofobject return screen of object xtsetmulticlicktime set the multi click time xtsetwmcolormapwindows set wm colormap windows for custom colormaps xtungrabbutton cancel a passive button grab xtungrabkey cancel a passive key grab xtungrabkeybard release an active keyboard grab xtungrabpointer release an active pointer grab xtva varags interfaces to a bunch of functions xtwindowofobject return window of nearest widget ancestor deprecated replacement when xtaddactions xtappaddactions r xtaddconverter xtappaddconverter r xtaddinput xtappaddinput r xtaddtimeout xtappaddtimeout r xtaddworkproc xtappaddworkproc r xtconvert xtconvertandstore r xtcreateapplicationshell xtappcreateshell r xtdestroygc xtreleasegc r xterror xtapperror r xtgeterrordatabase xtappgeterrordatabase r xtgeterrordatabasetext xtappgeterrordatabasetext r xtgetselectiontimeout xtappgetselectiontimeout r xtinitialize xtappinitialize r xtmainloop xtappmainloop r menupopdown action xtmenupopdown action r menupopup action xtmenupopup action r xtnextevent xtappnextevent r xtpeekevent xtapppeekevent r xtpending xtapppending r xtseterrorhandler xtappseterrorhandler r xtseterrormsghandler xtappseterrormsghandler r xtsetselectiontimeout xtappsetselectiontimeout r xtsetwarninghandler xtappsetwarninghandler r xtsetwarningmsghandler xtappsetwarningmsghandler r xtwarning xtappwarning r xtwarningmsg xtappwarningmsg r where are the resources loaded from the resources of a widget are filled in from the following places from highest priority to lowest priority args passed at creation time command line arguments user s per host defaults file user s defaults file user s per application default file system wide per application default file note that are read only once on application startup the result of steps is a single resource database used for further queries the per host defaults file contains customizations for all applications executing on a specific computer this file is either specified with the xenvironment environment variable or if that is not set then the file home xdefaults host is used the user defaults file is either obtained from the resource manager property on the root window of the display or if that is not set then the file home xdefaults is used typically the program xrdb is used to set the resource manager property please note that this should be kept relatively small as each client that connects to the display must transfer the property a size of around kbyte is reasonable some toolkits may track changes to the resource manager but most do not a user may have many per application default files containing customizations specific to each application the intrinsics are quite flexible on how this file is found read the next part that describes the various environment variables and how they effect where this file is found the system wide per application default files are typically found in usr lib x app defaults if such a file is not found then the fallback resources are used the intrinsics are quite flexible on how this file is found read the next part that describes the various environment variables and how they effect where this file is found thanks to oliver jones oj pictel com for the following you can use several environment variables to control how resources are loaded for your xt based programs xfilesearchpath xuserfilesearchpath and xapplresdir these environment variables control where xt looks for application defaults files as an application is initializing xt loads at most one app defaults file from the path defined in xfilesearchpath and another from the path defined in xuserfilesearchpath set xfilesearchpath if software is installed on your system in such a way that app defaults files appear in several different directory hierarchies suppose for example that you are running sun s open windows and you also have some r x applications installed in usr lib x app defaults you could set a value like this for xfilesearchpath and it would cause xt to look up app defaults files in both usr lib x and usr openwin lib or wherever your openwinhome is located setenv xfilesearchpath usr lib x t n openwinhome lib t n the value of this environment variable is a colon separated list of pathnames the pathnames contain replacement characters as follows see xtresolvepathname n the value of the filename parameter or the application s class name t the value of the file type in this case the literal string app defaults c customization resource r only s suffix none for app defaults l language locale and codeset e g ja jp euc l language part of l e g ja t the territory part of the display s language string c the codeset part of the display s language string let s take apart the example suppose the application s class name is myterm also suppose open windows is installed in usr openwin notice the example omits locale specific lookup usr lib x t n means usr lib x app defaults myterm openwinhome lib t n means usr openwin lib app defaults myterm as the application initializes xt tries to open both of the above app defaults files in the order shown as soon as it finds one it reads it and uses it and stops looking for others the effect of this path is to search first in usr lib x then in usr openwin let s consider another example this time let s set xuserfilesearchpath so it looks for the file myterm ad in the current working directory then for myterm in the directory app defaults setenv xuserfilesearchpath n ad home app defaults n the first path in the list expands to myterm ad the second expands to home app defaults myterm this is a convenient setting for debugging because it follows the imake convention of naming the app defaults file myterm ad in the application s source directory so you can run the application from the directory in which you are working and still have the resources loaded properly note when looking for app default files with xuserfilesearchpath for some bizarre reason neither the type nor file suffix is defined so t and s are useless with r there s another twist you may specify a customization resource value for example you might run the myterm application like this myterm xrm customization color if one of your pathname specifications had the value usr lib x app defaults n c then the expanded pathname would be usr lib x app defaults myterm color because the c substitution character takes on the value of the customization resource the default xfilesearchpath compiled into xt is usr lib x l t n c r usr lib x l t n c r usr lib x t n c r usr lib x l t n usr lib x l t n usr lib x t n note some sites replace usr lib x with a projectroot in this batch of default settings the default xuserfilesearchpath also compiled into xt is root l n c r root l n c r root n c r root l n root l n root n root is either the value of xapplresdir or the user s home directory if xapplresdir is not set if you set xuserfilesearchpath to some value other than the default xt ignores xapplresdir altogether notice that the quick and dirty way of making your application find your app defaults file in your current working directory is to set xapplresdir to a single dot in r all this machinery worked differently for r compatibilty many people set their xapplresdir value to a dot followed by a slash what order are callbacks executed in courtesy of donna converse converse expo lcs mit edu the intrinsics library do not guarantee an order this is because both the widget writer and the application writer have the ability to modify the entire contents of the callback list neither one currently knows what the other is doing and so the intrinsics cannot guarantee the order of execution the application programmer cannot rely on the widget writer the widget writer is not required to document when the widget will add and remove callbacks from the list or what effect this will have therefore the functionality contained in a callback should be independent of the functionality contained in other callbacks on the list even though the xt standard in the definition of xtaddcallback says callback name specifies the callback list to which the procedure is to be appended you may not infer from the word appended that the callback routines are called in the same order as they have been added to the callback list how do i know if a widget is visible courtesy of donna converse converse expo lcs mit edu i am building a widget needs to know if it is visible i set the visible interest field in core and if my window is completely obscured the core visible flag goes false however if my window is iconified the flag stays set to true right everything is implemented correctly this demonstrates a deficiency in the x protocol and the core widget is reflecting the capabilities of the protocol the deficiency is that the information is available in one way in this case an inconvenient way the xt specification is accurate in the second and third paragraphs of section so read this section carefully the visible field will not change in response to iconification a visibilitynotify event will not be received when the window goes from viewable to unviewable that is when the widget or an ancestor is unmapped that is when iconification occurs this is the protocol deficiency visibility state and viewable state have specific meanings in the x protocol see the glossary in your xlib and x protocol reference manual is this a problem with mwm or is there something else which needs to be done you ll see this with any window manager with no window manager if the problem is mwm what is the fastest way to determine if a window is iconified as an application writer keep track with a global boolean in an action routine with translations for mapnotify and unmapnotify on the shell widget which contains your custom widget as the custom widget writer see the map state field returned by a call to xgetwindowattributes these are suggestions how do i reparent a widget in xt i e xtreparentwidget you can t why use xtmalloc xtfree etc unfortunately most code that calls malloc realloc or calloc tends to ignore the possibility of returning null at best it is handled something like ptr type malloc sizeof type if ptr perror malloc in xyzzy exit to handle this common case the intrinsics define the functions xtmalloc xtcalloc xtnew xtnewstring and xtrealloc which all use the standard c language functions malloc calloc and realloc but execute xterrormsg if a null value is returned xt error handlers are not supposed to return so this effectively exits in addition if xtrealloc is called with a null pointer it uses xtmalloc to get the initial space this allows code like if ptr ptr type malloc sizeof type else ptr type realloc ptr sizeof type count count to be written as ptr xtrealloc ptr sizeof ptr count also xtfree accepts a null pointer as an argument generally i ve found the xt functions conveniant to use however anytime i m allocating anything potentially large i use the standard functions so i can fully recover from not enough memory errors xtnew and xtnewstring are conveniant macros for allocating a structure or copying a string struct abc xyzzy char ptr char str abcdef xyzzy xtnew struct abc takes care of type casting ptr xtnewstring str a strict interpretation of the intrinsics reference manual allow an implementation to provide functions that are not exchangable with malloc and free i e code such as char ptr ptr xtmalloc free ptr may not work personally i d call any implementation that did this broken and complain to the vendor a common error for motif programmers is to use xtfree on a string when they should really be using xmstringfree how to debug an xt application first i d recomend getting purify from pure software this is a great package for tracing memory problems on sun s it s a bit pricey at but i d still recomend it excuse the marketing blurb contact support pure com for more info purify inserts additional checking instructions directly into the object code produced by existing compilers these instructions check every memory read and write performed by the program under test and detect several types of access errors such as reading unitialized memory writing past malloc d bounds or writing to freed memory purify inserts checking logic into all of the code in a program including third party and vendor object code libraries and verifies system call interfaces in addition purify tracks memory usage and identifies individual memory leaks using a novel adaption of garbage collection techniques purify s nearly comprehensive memory access checking slows the target program down typically by a factor of two to five an alternative package that isn t as pricey for a sun runs on many unix s and has pretty similar features is the sentinel debugging environment this replaces malloc and several other c library functions to add additional checks contact cpcahil virtech vti com for more info next if you are getting any sort of xlib error you ll need to run in synchronous mode easily accomplished with the sync command line argument or by setting the variable xdebug to with your debugger then set a break point in exit this will let you trace back to the original xlib function being called if you don t run in synchronous mode then the actual error may have occured any number of calls to xlib previously since the xlib calls are buffered and replies from the server are asynchronous next if you are having trouble with window layout you can use the undocumented resource xtidentifywindows or the class resource xtdebug to cause the widget name to be identified with each window for example example xload xrm xtdebug true example xwininfo tree click in new xload window will give the normal information but the widget name and class of each window is included this can help for checking the location and size of errant widgets next if you are having trouble with geometry managers or you want to test the way a widget manages it s children you can try export lcs mit edu contrib libxtgeo tar z this acts as a filter between any children and a geometry manager and checks the behaviour of both it s a very clever idea the most unfortunate problem is debugging a callback while the application is executing a grab of the keyboard or mouse such as from a pulldown menu the server effectively locks up and you ll need to go to another machine and kill the debugger manually the server locks up because the application being debugged has said no one else can have access to the keyboard but the application is not stopped waiting because the debugger is waiting for your commands unfortunately you can t give them because all the input is going to your application which is stopped the best way to debug this kind of problem is with two machines on your desk running the program under a debugger or other environment on one machine and running the application on the other possibly using a command sequence like this othermachine xhost thismachine thismachine setenv display othermachine thismachine gdb application your favorite debugger or this othermachine xhost thismachine thismachine gdb application gdb set environment display othermachine gdb run i believe codecenter a c interpreter graphical debugger has a method of dealing with this by explicitely calling the xlib functions to release any grabs during breakpoints debugging widget problems requires pretty good debugging skills and knowledge of how widgets work you can go a long way without knowing the internals of a particular widget but not very far without understanding how a widget works judicious use of conditional breakpoints and adding print statements with the debugger help a great deal why don t xtaddinput xtaddtimeout and xtaddworkproc work i have got a delicate problem with the three routines xtaddinput xtaddtimeout and xtaddworkproc the problem i have is that when i use them in my application they seem not to be registred properly i have made a handy little testprogram where everything works perfect but in my real application nothing happens the introduction in r of the xtapp functions obsoleted those routines see q for other changes in r r and r what happens is they use a default application context different then the one you may have created since events and timeouts are distributed on a per application context basis and you are using two application contexts you won t get those events for example cnt toplevel xtappinitialize app class desc xtnumber desc argc argv fallback args cnt xtaddtimeout xtaddworkproc xtappmainloop app would never invoke the timeout what is and how can i implement drag and drop courtesy of roger reynolds rogerr netcom com feb drag n drop is a buzzword for moving data between clients in an intuitive fashion motif version supports drag n drop capabilities openlook has supported d n d all along the two protocols are not compatable with each other and so far as i know they are not published i wrote a package called rdd which is designed to be a flexible public protocol for doing drag n drop operations between clients my intention was to provide a tool which would make it easy for people to support a standard drag n drop protocol in the programs they develop and contribute or sell regardless of what widget set is used as long as it is based on xt the implementation is based upon my understanding of the icccm conventions for more details read the code i have heard from dozens of people using rdd who like it and feel that it works a whole lot better than motif stuff also there seem to be many who think that it is neat but are constrained to use motif anyway the latest rdd and some other stuff is available for ftp from netcom com in pub rogerr a possibly older version is also available on export lcs mit edu in contrib pete ware ware cis ohio state edu cis dept ohio state university w bolz hall neil ave h columbus oh
comp.windows.x	re teleuse uim x and c in article apr ctp com hubec ctp com hubert chou writes does anyone have any good ideas on how to integrate c code elegantly with teleuse uim x interface architect generated code source would be great but any suggestions are welcome hubie chou hubec ctp com i don t know a great deal about the support for c in uim x but i can tell you that there is good support for it in teleuse in teleuse you can call any c method from a d module what you can do then is to use the d language for most of your interface code and then use c for you application code i should tell you that there is some real neat stuff coming out of teleuse soon in regard to c but i can t give you many details you should talk to your local sales rep and get the lowdown on what they will be doing in the near furture if you want example code of how c integrates with teleuse you should look at teleuse examples thermometer steve vranyes voice e mail stevevr ecs comm mot com u s post motorola inc e algonquin rd schaumburg il
comp.windows.x	xv root with vue was re xloadimage onroot on a related note how can i use xv to display colored gifs on my root display with hp vue all i can do with vue is display xbm s through their backdrop style manager xv does not seem to be able to override whatever vue puts there thanks jan jan vandenbrande jan ug eds com new address jan lipari usc edu school address forwards uucp uunet uupsi ug jan
comp.windows.x	strange exposure problem hi i m trying to write a motif program on an interactive unix machine and i m observing very strange behavior when my program attempts to expose a drawingarea namely some xlib operations work and some do not in particular the expose consist of two xfillrectangle calls followed by some xdrawpoint calls and for reasons unknown to me the point calls are failing whenever a pulldown or popup up menu is clicked on and moved in the rightward direction over the drawing area but after the move is still on some part of the drawing area this also happens less consistently when the pulldown popup is moved in the leftward direction assuming that my code is not doing anything incredibly odd is this a server bug thanks zack t smith
comp.windows.x	x for pc i have heard of two packages for the pc that support x win the first is linux which is a free unix package the second is x appeal which sounds pretty good it can be found at garbo uwusa fi in the ftp pc demo dir the files are xap exe zip xap fon zip drivers zip this should get you started josh joshua weage u s snail spring rd baroda mi e mail cs freenet in a cwru edu ai yfn ysu edu fidonet joshua weage all ideas are my own and no one elses
comp.windows.x	q how to avoid xopendisplay hang i m writing xwall a simple x version of wall and i want it to put a message up on each of a default list of displays the problem is that xopendisplay hangs if one of the displays is currently controlled by xdm login screen i ve been through the manuals and faq and don t see a simple way to see if a display is openable ahead of time or to get xopendisplay to fail after a short period of time any hints suggestions clues or pointers to info thanks andy moore andy ice stx com you could say i ve lost faith in the politicians they all seem like game show hosts to me sting
comp.windows.x	widget source code needed i m considering writing my own widgets but i like to have some sample widget source code to look over first where could i find something like this are there any archives accessible by anonymous ftp that contain such information thanks edward
comp.windows.x	converting color gif to x pixmap i have looked through the faq sections and have not seen a answer for this i have an x motif application that i have written i have a couple of gif files or pict that i have scanned in with a color scanner now i would like to be able to convert the gif files into a format that could be read into my application and displayed on the background of its main window preferably with pixmaps or perhaps as an ximage i have found functions in the pbmplus program suite to convert gif to xbm but that is monochrome and i really do need color i have looked at xv which reads in gif and writes out several formats but have not found a way to write out a file which can be read in as a pixmap is there an easy way to do this email responses preferred thanks mark ahlenius rtsg mot com regards mark mark ahlenius voice email ahlenius marble rtsg mot com motorola inc fax arlington hts il usa
comp.windows.x	re honors degrees do they mean anything what has this got to do with comp windows x o o oo oo justin kibell systems programmer xmelba project team c a t t collaborative information technology research institute melbourne vic internet jck jaguar catt citri edu au phone australia
comp.windows.x	help building x r with gcc can people please send me any hints on building x r with gcc is there any pitfalls to be avoided any hints i would appreciate hearing other peoples stories on this tim tim liddelow for fork systems programmer centre of advanced technology in telecommunications my brain on a bad day citri melbourne australia internet tim kimba catt citri edu au phone fax
comp.windows.x	reposting th international obfuscated c code contest rules of we have received a number of requests for a reposting of the international obfuscated c code contest rules and guidelines also some people requested that these rules be posted to a wider set of groups sorry for the cross posting some technical clarifications were made to the rules and guidelines see the diff marks at the right hand edge the rules and guidelines for this year remain the same so people who have already or are in the process of submitting entries for the ioccc need not worry about these changes chongo landon curt noll cc chongo toad com larry bassel lab sun com bin sh this is a shell archive shar made utc by chongo toad com source directory tmp existing files will be overwritten this shar contains length mode name r r r rules r r r guidelines r r r mkentry c r r r obfuscate info rules echo x extracting rules text sed s x shar eof rules x th international obfuscated c code contest rules x xcopyright c landon curt noll larry bassel xall rights reserved permission for personal education or non profit use is xgranted provided this this copyright and notice are included in its entirety xand remains unaltered all other uses must receive prior permission in writing xfrom both landon curt noll and larry bassel x x obfuscate tr v cated cating cates a to render obscure x b to darken to confuse his emotions obfuscated his x judgment llat obfuscare to darken ob intensive x lat fuscare to darken fuscus dark obfuscation n x obfuscatory adj x x xgoals of the contest x x to write the most obscure obfuscated c program under the rules below x to show the importance of programming style in an ironic way x to stress c compilers with unusual code x to illustrate some of the subtleties of the c language x to provide a safe forum for poor c code x x xnote changes from the draft are noted by change bars x x xrules x x to help us with the volume of entries we ask that you follow these rules x x your entry must be a complete program x x your entry must be bytes in length the number of characters x excluding whitespace tab space newline and excluding any or x followed by either whitespace or end of file must be x x your entry must be submitted in the following format x x entry xrule xfix y or n n this is a new entry y this replaces an older entry xtitle title of entry see comments below xentry entry number from to inclusive your st entry should by xdate date time of submission in utc see comments below xhost machine s and os s under which your entry was tested x use tab indented lines if needed x remark x place remarks about this entry in this section it would be helpful if x you were to indent your remarks with spaces though it is not a x requirement also if possible try to avoid going beyond the th x column blank lines are permitted x author xname your name xorg school company organization xaddr postal address x use tab indented lines to continue x don t forget to include the country xemail email address from a well known site or registered domain x if you give several forms list them on separate tab indented lines xanon y or n y remain anonymous n ok to publish this info x info xif your program needs an info file place a uuencoded copy of it in xthis section in the case of multiple info files use multiple info xsections if your entry does not need a info file skip this section x build xplace a uuencoded copy of the command s used to compile build your program xin this section it must uudecode into a file named build the resulting xfile must be bytes or less x program xplace a uuencoded copy of your program in this section it must uudecode xinto a file named is prog c the resulting file must follow rule x end x x regarding the above format x x the title must match the expression a za z a za z x and must be to characters in length x x it is suggested but not required that the title should x incorporate your username in the case of multiple authors x consider using parts of the usernames of the authors x x the date in the entry section should be given with respect x to utc the format of the date should be as returned by asctime x using the c locale see guidelines for more info x x you may correct revise a previously submitted entry by sending x it to the contest email address be sure to set fix in the x entry section to n the corrected entry must use the same x title and entry number as submittion that is being corrected be x sure that you note the resubmittion in the remark as well x x with the exception of the header all text outside of the above x format may be ignored by the judges if you need tell the judges x something put it in the remark section or send a separate x email message to the judges x x information from the author section will be published unless x y was given to the respective author s anon line x x to credit multiple authors include an author section for x each author each should start with author line and x should be found between the entry and build sections x x the entry s remarks should include x what this program does x how to run the program sample args or input x special compile or execution instructions if any x special filename requirements see rule and x information about any data files x why you think the program is obfuscated x note if this entry is a re submission of a previous entry x any other remarks humorous or otherwise x x do not rot your entry s remarks you may suggest that certain x portions of your remarks be rot ed if your entry wins an award x x info files should be used only to supplement your entry they x should not be required to exist x x if your entry does not need an info file skip the info x section if your entry needs multiple info files use multiple x info sections one per info file you should describe x each info file in the remark section x x if your entry is selected as a winner it will be modified as follows x x build is incorporated into a makefile and build is removed x prog c is renamed to your entry s title followed by an optional x digit followed by c x your entry is compiled into a file with the name of your entry s x title possibly followed by a digit x x if your entry requires that a build file exist state so in your x entry s remark section the makefile will be arranged to execute a x build shell script containing the build information the name of x this build shell script will be your entry s title possibly followed x by a digit followed by sh x x if needed your entry s remarks should indicate how your entry must x be changed in order to deal with the new filenames x x the build file the source and the resulting executable should be x treated as read only files if your entry needs to modify these files x it should make and modify a copy of the appropriate file if this x occurs state so in your entry s remarks x x entries that cannot be compiled by an ansi c compiler will be rejected x use of common c k r extensions is permitted as long as it does not x cause compile errors for ansi c compilers x x the program must be of original work all programs must be in the x public domain all copyrighted programs will be rejected x x entries must be received prior to may utc utc is x essentially equivalent to greenwich mean time email your entries to x x apple pyramid sun uunet hoptoad obfuscate x obfuscate toad com x x we request that your message use the subject ioccc entry x x if possible we request that you hold off on emailing your entries x until mar utc early entries will be accepted however x we will attempt to email a confirmation to the the first author for x all entries received after mar utc x x each person may submit up to entries per contest year each entry x must be sent in a separate email letter x x entries requiring human interaction to be built are not allowed x compiling an entry produce a file or files which may be executed x x programs that require special privileges setuid setgid super user x special owner or group are not allowed x x xfor more information x x the judging will be done by landon noll and larry bassel please send x questions or comments about the contest to x x apple pyramid sun uunet hoptoad judges not the address for x judges toad com submitting entries x x the rules and the guidelines may and often do change from year to x year you should be sure you have the current rules and guidelines x prior to submitting entries to obtain them send email to the address x above and use the subject send rules x x one may obtain winners of previous contests to date via ftp from x x host ftp uu net x user anonymous x pass yourname yourhost x dir pub ioccc x x as a last resort previous winners may be obtained by sending email x to the above address please use the subject send year winners x where year is a single digit year a year range or all x x xchongo landon curt noll cc chongo toad com xlarry bassel lab sun com shar eof chmod rules echo restore of rules failed set wc c rules wc c if test wc c then echo original size current size wc c fi guidelines echo x extracting guidelines text sed s x shar eof guidelines x th international obfuscated c code contest guidelines hints and comments x xcopyright c landon curt noll larry bassel xall rights reserved permission for personal education or non profit use is xgranted provided this this copyright and notice are included in its entirety xand remains unaltered all other uses must receive prior permission in writing xfrom both landon curt noll and larry bassel x xabout this file x x this file is intended to help people who wish to submit entries to x the international obfuscated c code contest ioccc for short x x this is not the ioccc rules though it does contain comments about x them the guidelines should be viewed as hints and suggestions x entries that violate the guidelines but remain within the rules are x allowed even so you are safer if you remain within the guidelines x x you should read the current ioccc rules prior to submitting entries x the rules are typically sent out with these guidelines x x changes from the draft are noted by change bars x x xwhat is new in x x the entry format is better for us anyway the program mkentry c x has been updated see entry format x x we will reject entries that cannot be compiled using an ansi c x compiler certain old obfuscation hacks that cause ansi c compilers x fits are no longer permitted some of the new issues deal with x non integral array types variable number of arguments c preprocessor x directives and the exit function see our likes and dislikes x x xhints and suggestions x x you are encouraged to examine the winners of previous contests see x for more information for details on how to get previous winners x x keep in mind that rules change from year to year so some winning entries x may not be valid entries this year what was unique and novel one year x might be old the next year x x an entry is usually examined in a number of ways we typically apply x a number of tests to an entry x x look at the original source x convert ansi tri graphs to ascii x c pre process the source ignoring include lines x c pre process the source ignoring define and include lines x run it through a c beautifier x examine the algorithm x lint it x compile it x execute it x x you should consider how your entry looks in each of the above tests x you should ask yourself if your entry remains obscure after it has been x cleaned up by the c pre processor and a c beautifier x x your entry need not do well under all or in most tests in certain x cases a test is not important entries that compete for the x strangest most creative source layout need not do as well as x others in terms of their algorithm on the other hand given x two such entries we are more inclined to pick the entry that x does something interesting when you run it x x we try to avoid limiting creativity in our rules as such we leave x the contest open for creative rule interpretation as in real life x programming interpreting a requirements document or a customer request x is important for this reason we often award worst abuse of the x rules to an entry that illustrates this point in an ironic way x x if you do plan to abuse the rules we suggest that you let us know x in the remarks section please note that an invitation to abuse x is not an invitation to break we are strict when it comes to the x byte size limit also abusing the entry format tends to x annoy more than amuse x x we do realize that there are holes in the rules and invite entries x to attempt to exploit them we will award worst abuse of the rules x and then plug the hole next year even so we will attempt to use x the smallest plug needed if not smaller x x check out your program and be sure that it works we sometimes make x the effort to debug an entry that has a slight problem particularly x in or near the final round on the other hand we have seen some x of the best entries fall down because they didn t work x x we tend to look down on a prime number printer that claims that x is a prime number if you do have a bug you are better off x documenting it noting this entry sometimes prints the th power x of a prime by mistake would save the above entry and sometimes x a strange bug feature can even help the entry of course a correctly x working entry is best x x xour likes and dislikes x x doing masses of defines to obscure the source has become old we x tend to see thru masses of defines due to our pre processor tests x that we apply simply abusing defines or dfoo bar won t go as far x as a program that is more well rounded in confusion x x many ansi c compilers dislike the following code and so do we x x define d define x d foo don t expect this to turn into define foo x x int i x j don t use such implicit type declaration x int k x x we suggest that you compile your entry with an ansi c compiler if you x must use non ansi c such as k r c you must avoid areas that result in x compile link errors for ansi c compilers x x unfortunately some ansi c compilers require array indexes to be of x integral type thus the following classical obfuscation hacks should x not be used in this rule may be relaxed in future contests x x int i x char c x i c use c i instead x i string use string i instead x x if your entry uses functions that have a variable number of x arguments be careful systems implement va list as a wide variety x of ways because of this a number of operations using va list are x not portable and must not be used x x assigning a non va list variable to from a va list variable x casting a non va list variable into from a va list variable x passing a va list variable to a function expecting a non va list arg x passing a non va list variable to a function expecting a va list arg x performing arithmetic on va list variables x using va list as a structure or union x x in particular do not treat va list variables as if they were a char s x x avoid using varargs h use stdarg h instead x x if you use c preprocessor directives define if ifdef x the leading must be the first character on a line while some x c preprocessors allow whitespace the leading many do not x x because the exit function returns void on some systems entries x must not assume that it returns an int x x small programs are best when they are short obscure and concise x while such programs are not as complex as other winners they do x serve a useful purpose they are often the only program that people x attempt to completely understand for this reason we look for x programs that are compact and are instructional x x one line programs should be short one line programs say around x bytes long getting close to bytes is a bit too long in our opinion x x we tend to dislike programs that x x are very hardware specific x are very os or un x version specific x index strchr differences are ok but socket streams specific x code is likely not to be x dump core or have compiler warnings x it is ok only if you warn us in the remark header item x won t compile under both bsd or sys v un x x abusing the build file to get around the size limit x obfuscate by excessive use of ansi tri graphs x are longer than they need to be x are similar to previous winners x are identical to previous losers x x unless you are cramped for space or unless you are entering the x best one liner category we suggest that you format your program x in a more creative way than simply forming excessively long lines x x the build file should not be used to try and get around the size x limit it is one thing to make use of a several d s to help out x but it is quite another to use bytes of d s in order to x try and squeeze the source under the size limit you should feel x free to make use of the build file space but you are better off x if you show some amount of restraint x x we allowed whitespace and in certain cases or do not impact x your program size up to a certain point because we want to get x away from source that is simply a compact blob of characters x x given two versions of the same program one that is a compact blob x of code and the other that is formatted more like a typical c x program we tend to favor the second version of course a third x version of the same program that is formatted in an interesting x and or obfuscated way would definitely win over the first two x x we suggest that you avoid trying for the smallest self replicating x program we are amazed at the many different sizes that claim x to be the smallest there is nothing wrong with self replicating x programs in fact a number of winners have been self replicating x you might want to avoid the claim of smallest lest we or others x know of a smaller one x x x client entries should be as portable as possible entries that x adapt to a wide collection of environments will be favored don t x depend on a particular type of display for example don t depend x on color or a given size don t require backing store x x x client entries should avoid using x related libraries and x software that is not in wide spread use we ask that such x client x entries restrict themselves to only the low level xlib and the x athena widget set libx a libxaw a libxmu a and libxt a x don t use m tif xv ew or openl ok toolkits since not everyone x has them avoid depending on a particular window manager not x everyone has x r and some people are stuck back in x r or x earlier so try to target x r without requiring x r better x yet try to make your entry run on all version x window systems x x x client entries should not to depend on particular items on x xdefaults if you must do so be sure to note the required lines x in the remark section x x we like programs that x x are as concise and small as they need to be x do something at least quasi interesting x pass lint without complaint not a requirement but it is nice x are portable x are unique or novel in their obfuscation style x make use of a number of different types of obfuscation x make us laugh and or throw up x x some types of programs can t excel in some areas of course your x program doesn t have to excel in all areas but doing well in several x areas really does help x x we freely admit that interesting creative or humorous comments in x the remark section helps your chance of winning if you had to x read of many twisted entries you too would enjoy a good laugh or two x we think the readers of the contest winners do as well x x be creative x x xentry format x x in order to help us process the many entries we must request your x assistance by formatting your entries in a certain way this format x in addition allows us to quickly separate information about the x author from the program itself see judging process x x we have provided the program mkentry as an example of how to x format entries you should be aware of the following warning that x is found in mkentry c x x this program attempts to implement the ioccc rules every x attempt has been made to make sure that this program produces x an entry that conforms to the contest rules in all cases x where this program differs from the contest rules the x contest rules will be used be sure to check with the x contest rules before submitting an entry x x you are not required to use mkentry it is convenient however x as it attempts to uuencode the needed files and attempt to check x the entry against the size rules x x if you have any suggestions comments fixes or complaints about x the mkentry c program please send email to the judges see below x x the following is a sample entry x x entry xrule xfix n xtitle chonglab xentry xdate mon mar xhost un x v pdp x bsd pdp x remark x this is a non obfuscated obfuscated c program x x it is likely not to win a prize but what do you expect from x a short example x author xname landon curt noll xorg ioccc judging group xaddr toad hall x po box x san francisco california x x usa xemail chongo toad com xanon n x author xname larry bassel xorg ioccc judging group xaddr toad hall x po box x san francisco california x x usa xemail hoptoad sun lab x lab sun com xanon n x info x end x x typically the build file should assume that the source is prog c x and will compile into prog if an entry wins we will rename x its source and binary to avoid filename collision by tradition x we use the name of the entry s title followed by an optional x digit in case of name conflicts x x if the above entry somehow won the least likely to win award x we would use chonglab c and chonglab x x if your entry depends on or requires that your build source x and or binary files be a particular name please say so in the x remark section if this case applies it would be be helpful x if you did one of the following x x tell us how to change the filename s in your entry x x have the build file make copies of the files for example x x cc prog c o special name need special binary x x or rm f special src c need special source x cp prog c special src c x cc special src c o special name x x or rm f special build need special build x tail build special build x sh special build x x assume that we will use the entry title send us a version of x your build program files that uses the name convention you x should uuencode these files in data sections x x if your entry needs to modify its source info or binary files x please say so in the remark section you should try to avoid x touching your original build source and binary files you should x arrange to make copies of the files you intend to modify this x will allow people to re generate your entry from scratch x x remember that your entry may be built without a build file we x typically incorporate the build lines into a makefile if the x build file must exist say so in the remark section x x if your entry needs special info files you should uuencode them x into info sections in the case of multiple info files x use multiple info sections if no info files are needed x then skip the info section x x info files are intended to be input or detailed information that x does not fit well into the remark section for example an x entry that implements a compiler might want to provide some sample x programs for the user to compile an entry might want to include a x lengthy design document that might not be appropriate for a x hints file x x info files should be used only to supplement your entry for x example info files may provide sample input or detailed x information about your entry because they are supplemental x the entry should not require them exist x x in some cases your info files might be renamed to avoid name x conflicts if info files should not be renamed for some reason x say so in the remark section x x info files must uudecode into the current directory if they x absolutely must be renamed or moved into a sub directory say x so in the remark section x x when submitting multiple entries be sure that each entry has x a unique entry number from to your first entry should x have entry number x x with the exception of the header all text outside of the entry x format may be ignored that is don t place text outside of the x entry and expect the judges to see it our decoding tools aren t x ai progs if you need tell the the something put it in the x remark section or send a email to the judges at x x apple pyramid sun uunet hoptoad judges not the address for x judges toad com submitting entries x x the date should be given with respect to utc some systems refer x to this as gmt or gmt the format of the date should be that as x returned by asctime in the c locale an example of such a string is x x thr apr x x this format is similar to the output of the date command the x string does not include the timezone name before the year on many x systems one of the following command will produce a similar string x x date u a h d t y x date u sed e s x sh c tz utc date sed e s x sh c tz gmt date sed e s x sh c tz gmt date sed e s x x you are allowed to update fix revise your entry to do so set x the fix line in the entry section to y instead of n x be sure that the resubmittion uses the same title and entry number x as well as these are used to determine which entry is to be x replaced x x xjudging process x x entries are judged by larry bassel and landon curt noll x x entries are unpacked into individual directories the email message x is unpacked into individual files each containing x x entry section x all author sections x all info sections x build section x program section x any other text including the email message headers x x prior to judging the any other text file is scanned to be sure x it does not contain useful information or in case the entry was x malformed and did not unpack correctly information from the x author sections are not read until the judging process is x complete and then only from entries that have won an award x x the above process helps keep us biased for against any one particular x individual we are usually kept in the dark as much as you are x until the final awards are given we like the surprise of finding x out in the end who won and where they were from x x we attempt to keep all entries anonymous unless they win an award x because the main prize of winning is being announced we make all x attempts to send non winners into oblivion we remove all non winning x files and shred all related paper by tradition we do not even x reveal the number of entries that we received for the curious x we do indicate the volume of paper consumed when presenting the ioccc x winners at talks x x after the usenix announcement we attempt to send email to the x authors of the winning entries one reason we do this is to give x the authors a chance to comment on the way we have presented their x entry they are given the chance to correct mistakes typos we x often accept their suggestions comments about our remarks as well x this is done prior to posting the winners to the wide world x x judging consists of a number of elimination rounds during a round x the collection of entries are divided into two roughly equal piles x the pile that advances on to the next round and the pile that does x not we also re examine the entries that were eliminated in the x previous round thus an entry gets at least two readings x x a reading consists of a number of actions x x reading the entry section x reading the uudecoded build section x reading the uudecoded program section x reading the uudecoded info section s if any x passing the source thru the c pre processor x shipping over any include files x performing a number of c beautify cleanup edits on the source x passing the beautified source thru the c pre processor x shipping over any include files x x in later rounds other actions are performed x x linting the source x compiling building the source x running the program x performing misc tests on the source and binary x x until we reduce the stack of entries down to about entries entries x are judged on an individual basis an entry is set aside because it x does not in our opinion meet the standard established by the round x when the number of entries thins to about entries we begin to form x award categories entries begin to compete with each other for awards x an entry often will compete in several categories x x the actual award category list will vary depending on the types of entries x we receive a typical category list might be x x best small one line program x best small program x strangest most creative source layout x most useful obfuscated program x best game that is obfuscated x most creatively obfuscated program x most deceptive c code x best x client see our likes and dislikes x best abuse of ansi c x worst abuse of the rules x anything else so strange that it deserves an award x x we do not limit ourselves to this list for example a few entries are so x good bad that they are declared winners at the start of the final round x we will invent awards categories for them if necessary x x in the final round process we perform the difficult tasks of x reducing the remaining entries typically about down to or x winners often we are confident that the entries that make it into x the final round are definitely better than the ones that do not x make it the selection of the winners out of the final round is x less clear cut x x sometimes a final round entry good enough to win but is beat out x by a similar but slightly better entry for this reason it is x sometimes worthwhile to re enter an improved version of an entry x that failed to win in a previous year this assumes of course x that the entry is worth improving in the first place x x more often that not we select a small entry usually one line a x strange creative layout entry and an entry that abuses the contest x rules in some way x x in the end we traditionally pick one entry as best sometimes such x an entry simply far exceeds any of the other entry more often the x best is picked because it does well in a number of categories x x xannouncement of winners x x the first announcement occurs at a summer usenix conference by tradition x this is done during the latter part of the uunet ioccc bof just prior to x the berkeley bsd and bsdi bof x x winning entries will be posted in late june to the following groups x x comp lang c comp unix wizards alt sources x x in addition pointers to these postings are posted to the following x x comp sources d alt sources d misc misc x comp sources misc comp windows x x x winning entries will be deposited into the uunet archives see x below for details x x often winning entries are published in selected magazines winners x have appeared in books the new hackers dictionary and on t shirts x x last but not least winners receive international fame and flames x x xfor more information x x you may contact the judges by sending email to the following address x x apple pyramid sun uunet hoptoad judges not the address for x judges toad com submitting entries x x questions and comments about the contest are welcome x x the rules and the guidelines may and often do change from year to x year you should be sure you have the current rules and guidelines x prior to submitting entries to obtain them send email to the address x above and use the subject send rules x x one may obtain winners of previous contests to date via ftp from x x host ftp uu net x user anonymous x pass yourname yourhost x dir pub ioccc x x as a last resort previous winners may be obtained by sending email x to the above address please use the subject send year winners x where year is a single digit year a year range or all x x xchongo landon curt noll cc chongo toad com xlarry bassel lab sun com shar eof chmod guidelines echo restore of guidelines failed set wc c guidelines wc c if test wc c then echo original size current size wc c fi echo end of part continue with part exit sunnyvale residents vote landon noll for sunnyvale city council seat
comp.windows.x	reposting th international obfuscated c code contest rules of we have received a number of requests for a reposting of the international obfuscated c code contest rules and guidelines also some people requested that these rules be posted to a wider set of groups sorry for the cross posting some technical clarifications were made to the rules and guidelines see the diff marks at the right hand edge the rules and guidelines for this year remain the same so people who have already or are in the process of submitting entries for the ioccc need not worry about these changes chongo landon curt noll cc chongo toad com larry bassel lab sun com bin sh this is part of a multipart archive mkentry c echo x extracting mkentry c text sed s x shar eof mkentry c x mkentry c x x copyright c landon curt noll larry bassel x all rights reserved permission for personal education or non profit use x is granted provided this this copyright and notice are included in its x entirety and remains unaltered all other uses must receive prior x permission in writing from both landon curt noll and larry bassel x x x mkentry make an international obfuscated c code contest entry x x usage x mkentry r remarks b build p prog c o ioccc entry x x r remarks file with remarks about the entry x b build file containing how prog c should be built x p prog c the obfuscated program source file x o ioccc entry ioccc entry output file x x compile by x cc mkentry c o mkentry x x x placed in the public domain by landon curt noll x x this software is provided as is and without any express or implied x warranties including without limitation the implied warranties of x merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose x x x warning x x this program attempts to implement the ioccc rules every attempt x has been made to make sure that this program produces an entry that x conforms to the contest rules in all cases where this program x differs from the contest rules the contest rules will be used be x sure to check with the contest rules before submitting an entry x x for more information x x you may contact the judges by sending email to the following address x x apple pyramid sun uunet hoptoad judges not the address for x judges toad com submitting entries x x questions and comments about the contest are welcome x x the rules and the guidelines may and often do change from year to x year you should be sure you have the current rules and guidelines x prior to submitting entries to obtain them send email to the address x above and use the subject send rules x x one may obtain winners of previous contests to date via ftp from x x host ftp uu net x user anonymous x pass yourname yourhost x dir pub ioccc x x as a last resort previous winners may be obtained by sending email x to the above address please use the subject send year winners x where year is a single digit year a year range or all x x because contest rules change from year to year one should only use this x program for the year that it was intended be sure that the rule year x define below matches this current year x x x include stdio h x include ctype h x include time h x include sys types h x include sys stat h x x logic x ifndef true x define true x endif true x ifndef false x define false x endif false x define eof ok true x define eof not ok false x x global limits x define rule year note should match the current year x define start date mar utc first confirmation received x define max col max column a line should hit x define max build size max how to build size x define max program size max program source size x define max program size max program source size not counting x whitespace and not followed by x whitespace or eof x define max title len max chars in the title x define max entry len max length in the entry input line x define max entry max number of entries per person per year x define max file len max filename length for a info file x x where to send entries x define entry addr apple pyramid sun uunet hoptoad obfuscate x define entry addr obfuscate toad com x x uuencode process assumes ascii x define uuencode c encode str int c xff x define uuencode len max uuencode chunk size x define uuinfo mode mode of an info file s uuencode file x define uubuild mode mode of the build file s uuencode file x define uubuild name build name for the build file s uuencode file x define uuprog mode mode of the program s uuencode file x define uuprog name prog c name for the program s uuencode file x x encode str char val is the uuencoded character of val xchar encode str abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz x x global declarations xchar program our name xlong start time the startup time x x forward declarations xvoid parse args xvoid usage xfile open remark xfile open build xfile open program xfile open output xvoid output entry xvoid output remark xvoid output author xvoid output info xvoid output build xvoid output program xvoid output end xint get line xvoid output till dot xint col len xvoid check io xvoid uuencode x xmain argc argv x int argc arg count x char argv the args x x file remark null open remarks stream x file build null open build file stream x file prog null open program stream x file output null open output stream x char rname null file with remarks about the entry x char bname null file containing how prog c should be built x char pname null the obfuscated program source file x char oname null ioccc entry output file x struct tm tm startup time structure x x x check on the year x x start time time long x tm gmtime start time x if tm tm year rule year x fprintf stderr x s warning this program applies to d which may differ from d n n x argv rule year tm tm year x x x x parse the command line args x x parse args argc argv rname bname pname oname x x x open check the input and output files x x we open and truncate the output file first in case it is the same x as one of the input files x x output open output oname x remark open remark rname x build open build bname x prog open program pname x if output null remark null build null prog null x exit x x x x output each section x x output entry output oname x output remark output oname remark rname x output author output oname x output info output oname x output build output oname build bname x output program output oname prog pname x output end output oname x x x flush the output x x if fflush output eof x fprintf stderr s flush error in s program oname x perror x exit x x x x final words x x printf nyour entry can be found in s you should check this file n x oname x printf correct any problems and verify that the uudecode utility will n x printf correctly decode your build file and program n n x printf this program has been provided as a guide for submitters in n x printf cases where it conflicts with the rules the rules shall apply n x printf it is your responsibility to ensure that your entry conforms to n x printf the current rules n n x printf email your entries to n x printf t s n entry addr x printf t s n n entry addr x printf please use the following subject when you email your entry n x printf tioccc entry n n x all done x exit x x x x parse args parse the command line args x x given the command line args this function parses them and sets the x required name flags this function will return only if the command x line syntax is correct x xvoid xparse args argc argv rname bname pname oname x int argc arg count x char argv the args x char rname file with remarks about the entry x char bname file containing how prog c should be built x char pname the obfuscated program source file x char oname ioccc entry output file x x char optarg flag option operand x int flagname the name of the flag x int i x x x not everyone has getopt so we must parse args by hand x x program argv x for i i argc i x x determine the flagname x if argv i x usage x notreached x x flagname int argv i x x determine the flag s operand x if flagname argv i x optarg argv i x else x if i argc x usage x notreached x else x optarg argv i x x x x save the flag s operand in the correct global variable x switch flagname x case r x rname optarg x break x case b x bname optarg x break x case p x pname optarg x break x case o x oname optarg x break x default x usage x notreached x x x x x verify that we have all of the required flags x x if rname null bname null pname null oname null x usage x notreached x x return x x x x usage print a usage message and exit x x this function does not return x xvoid xusage exitval x int exitval exit with this value x x fprintf stderr x usage s r remarks b build p prog c o ioccc entry n n program x fprintf stderr t r remarks tfile with remarks about the entry n x fprintf stderr t b build tfile containing how prog c should be built n x fprintf stderr t p prog c tthe obfuscated program source file n x fprintf stderr t o ioccc entry tioccc entry output file n x exit exitval x x x x open remark open check the remark file x x the remark file should be indented by spaces and should not extend x beyond column max col these are not requirements so we only warn x x this function returns null on i o or format error x xfile xopen remark filename x char filename x x file stream the opened file stream x char buf bufsiz input buffer x int toolong number of lines that are too long x int non indent number of lines not indented by spaces x x x open the remark input file x x stream fopen filename r x if stream null x fprintf stderr s cannot open remark file s x program filename x perror x return null x x x x look at each line x x while fgets buf bufsiz stream null x x count lines that do not start with spaces x if buf n strncmp buf x non indent x x x count long lines x if col len buf max col x found a line that is too long x toolong x x x x watch for i o errors x check io stream filename eof ok x x note long lines if needed x if toolong x fprintf stderr x s warning d line s from s extend beyond the th column n x program toolong filename x fprintf stderr x s this is ok but it would be nice to avoid n n x program x x x note non indented lines if needed x if non indent x fprintf stderr x s warning d line s from s are not indented by spaces n x program non indent filename x fprintf stderr x s this is ok but it would be nice to avoid n n x program x x x return the open file x rewind stream x return stream x x x x open build open check the build file x x the how to build file must not be longer than max build size bytes x x this function returns null on i o or size error x xfile xopen build filename x char filename x x file stream the opened file stream x struct stat statbuf the status of the open file x x x open the how to build input file x x stream fopen filename r x if stream null x fprintf stderr s cannot open how to build file s x program filename x perror x return null x x x x determine the size of the file x x if fstat fileno stream statbuf x fprintf stderr s cannot stat how to build file s x program filename x perror x return null x x if statbuf st size max build size x fprintf stderr x s fatal the how to build file s is d bytes long n x program filename statbuf st size x fprintf stderr x s it may not be longer than d bytes n x program max build size x return null x x x return the open file x return stream x x x x open program open check the program source file x x the program source file must be bytes the number of x non whitespace and chars not followed by whitespace must x be bytes x x this function returns null on i o or size error x xfile xopen program filename x char filename x x file stream the opened file stream x struct stat statbuf the status of the open file x int count special count size x int c the character read x x x open the program source input file x x stream fopen filename r x if stream null x fprintf stderr s cannot open program source file s x program filename x perror x exit x x x x determine the size of the file x x if fstat fileno stream statbuf x fprintf stderr s cannot stat program source file s x program filename x perror x return null x x if statbuf st size max program size x fprintf stderr x s fatal the program source file s is d bytes long n x program filename statbuf st size x fprintf stderr x s it may not be longer than d bytes n x program max program size x return null x x x x count the non whitespace non followed by whitespace chars x x count x c x while c fgetc stream eof x look at non whitespace x if isascii c isspace c x switch c x case count if not followed by eof or whitespace x case x case x peek at next char x c fgetc stream x if c eof isascii c isspace c x not followed by whitespace or eof count it x ungetc c stream x count x x break x default x count x break x x x x x watch for i o errors x check io stream filename eof ok x x look at the special size x if count max program size x fprintf stderr x s fatal the number of bytes that are non whitespace and n x program x fprintf stderr x s that are not followed by whitespace n x program x fprintf stderr x s or eof must be d bytes n x program max program size x fprintf stderr x s in s d bytes were found n x program filename count x return null x x x return the open file x rewind stream x return stream x x x x open output open check the entry output file x x this function returns null on open error x xfile xopen output filename x char filename x x file stream the opened file stream x x x open the ioccc entry output file x x stream fopen filename w x if stream null x fprintf stderr s cannot open ioccc entry file for output s x program filename x perror x exit x x x return the open file x return stream x x x x output entry output the entry section x x read the needed information form stdin and write the entry section x xvoid xoutput entry output oname x file output entry s output file stream x char oname name of the output file x x char title max title len the entry s title x char buf max col i o buffer x int entry entry number x int ret fields processed by fscanf x int ok line the line is not ok x char skip input to skip x file date pipe pipe to a date command x time t epoch sec seconds since the epoch x char p x x x write the start of the section x x fprintf output entry n x check io output oname eof not ok x x x write the rule year x x fprintf output rule t d n rule year x check io output oname eof not ok x x determine if this is a fix x printf is this a fix update or resubmittion to a x printf previous entry enter y or n x while get line buf buf y buf n x printf nplease answer y or n x x if buf y x fprintf output fix ty n x check io output oname eof not ok x printf nbe sure that the title and entry number that you give n x printf are the same of as the entry you are replacing n x else x fprintf output fix tn n x check io output oname eof not ok x x x x write the title x x printf nyour title must match expression be a a za z character n x printf followed by to d more a za z characters n n x max title len x printf it is suggested but not required that the title should n x printf incorporate your username in the n x printf case of multiple authors consider using parts of the usernames n x printf of the authors n n x printf enter your title x do x prompt and read a line x if ok line get line title max title len max col x printf ntitle is too long please re enter x continue x x x verify the pattern not everyone has regexp so do it by hand x if isascii int title x isalnum int title title title x printf ninvalid first character in the title n n x printf enter your title x ok line x else x for p title p p n p x if isascii int p x isalnum int p x p p p p x printf ninvalid character in the title n n x printf enter your title x ok line x x x x while ok line x fprintf output title t s title x check io output oname eof not ok x x x write the entry number x x printf neach person may submit up to d entries per year n n x max entry x printf enter an entry number from to d inclusive max entry x do x get a valid input line x fflush stdout x ret fscanf stdin d n entry x check io stdin stdin eof not ok x skip over input until newline is found x do x skip fgetc stdin x check io stdin stdin eof not ok x if skip n x bad text in input invalidate entry number x entry x x while skip n x x check if we have a number and if it is in range x if ret entry entry max entry x printf x nthe entry number must be between and d inclusive n n x max entry x printf enter the entry number x x while ret entry entry max entry x fprintf output entry t d n entry x check io output oname eof not ok x x x write the submission date x x returns a newline x epoch sec time null x fprintf output date t s asctime gmtime epoch sec x check io output oname eof not ok x x x write the os machine host information x x printf x nenter the machine s and os s under which your entry was tested n x output till dot output oname host x x x x output remark output the remark section x x read the needed information form stdin and write the entry section x xvoid xoutput remark output oname remark rname x file output entry s output file stream x char oname name of the output file x file remark stream to the file containing remark text x char rname name of the remark file x x char buf bufsiz input output buffer x x x write the start of the section x x fprintf output remark n x check io output oname eof not ok x x x copy the remark file to the section x x while fgets buf bufsiz remark null x fputs buf output x check io output oname eof not ok x x check io remark rname eof ok x x be sure that the remark section ends with a newline x if buf strlen buf n x fputc n output x check io output oname eof not ok x x x x x output author output the author section x x read the needed information from stdin and write the author section x if multiple authors exist multiple author sections will be written x xvoid xoutput author output oname x file output entry s output file stream x char oname name of the output file x x char buf max col i o buffer x int more auths true more authors to note x int auth cnt number of authors processed x x x prompt the user for the author section x x printf nenter information about each author if your entry is after n x printf s and before the contest deadline the judges n start date x printf will attempt to email back a confirmation to the first author n x x x place author information for each author in an individual section x x do x x write the start of the section x fprintf output author n x check io output oname eof not ok x x write the author x printf nauthor d name auth cnt x while get line buf max col max col x printf nname too long please re enter x x fprintf output name t s buf x check io output oname eof not ok x x write the organization x printf nenter the school company organization of author d n x auth cnt x printf nauthor d org auth cnt x while get line buf max col max col x printf nline too long please re enter x x fprintf output org t s buf x check io output oname eof not ok x x write the address x printf x nenter the postal address for author d be sure to include n x auth cnt x printf your country and do not include your name n x output till dot output oname addr x x write the email address x printf x nenter the email address for author d use an address from n x auth cnt x printf x a registered domain or well known site if you give several n x printf forms list them one per line n x output till dot output oname email x x write the anonymous status x printf nshould author d remain anonymous enter y or n x auth cnt x while get line buf buf y buf n x printf nplease answer y or n x x fprintf output anon t s buf x check io output oname eof not ok x x determine if there is another author x printf nis there another author enter y or n x while get line buf buf y buf n x printf nplease answer y or n x x if buf y x more auths true x else x more auths false x x while more auths true x return x x x x output info output the info section s x x read the needed information from stdin and write the info section x if multiple info files exist multiple info sections will be written x xvoid xoutput info output oname x file output entry s output file stream x char oname name of the output file x x char infoname max file len filename buffer x char yorn y or n answer x char uuname name to uuencode as x file infile info file stream x x x prompt the user for info information x x printf ninfo files should be used only to supplement your entry n x printf for example info files may provide sample input or detailed n x printf information about your entry because they are supplemental n x printf the entry should not require them to exist n n x x x while there is another info file to save uuencode it x x printf do you have a info file to include enter y or n x while get line yorn yorn y yorn n x printf nplease answer y or n x x while yorn y x x read the filename x printf nenter the info filename x while get line infoname max file len x printf ninfo filename too long please re enter x x x compute the basename of the info filename x remove the trailing newline x uuname infoname strlen infoname x uuname x avoid rindex shrrchr compat issues do it by hand x for uuname uuname infoname uuname x if uuname x uuname x break x x x x attempt to open the info file x infile fopen infoname r x if infile null x fprintf stderr n s cannot open info file s x program infoname x perror x continue x x x x write the start of the section x x fprintf output info n x check io output oname eof not ok x x uuencode the info file x uuencode output oname infile infoname uuinfo mode uuname x x printf ndo you have another info file to include enter y or n x while get line yorn yorn y yorn n x printf nplease answer y or n x x x return x x x x output build output the build section x x read the needed information from stdin and write the build section x xvoid xoutput build output oname build bname x file output entry s output file stream x char oname name of the output file x file build open build file stream x char bname name of the build file x x x write the start of the section x x fprintf output build n x check io output oname eof not ok x x x uuencode the program file x x uuencode output oname build bname uubuild mode uubuild name x return x x x x output program output the program section x x read the needed information form stdin and write the program section x xvoid xoutput program output oname prog pname x file output entry s output file stream x char oname name of the output file x file prog open program stream x char pname name of program file x x x write the start of the section x x fprintf output program n x check io output oname eof not ok x x x uuencode the program file x x uuencode output oname prog pname uuprog mode uuprog name x return x x x x output end output the end section x x read the needed information form stdin and write the end section x xvoid xoutput end output oname x file output entry s output file stream x char oname name of the output file x x x write the final section terminator x x fprintf output end n x check io output oname eof not ok x return x x x x get line get an answer from stdin x x this function will flush stdout in case a prompt is pending and x read in the answer x x this function returns if the line is too long of the length of the x line including the newline of the line was ok this function does x not return if error or eof x xint xget line buf siz maxcol x char buf input buffer x int siz length of input including the newline x int maxcol max col allowed disable check x x int length the length of the input line x x flush terminal output x fflush stdout x x read the line x if fgets buf siz stdin null x report the problem x check io stdin stdin eof not ok x x x look for the newline x length strlen buf x if buf length n x int eatchar the char being eaten x x no newline found line must be too long eat the rest of the line x do x eatchar fgetc stdin x while eatchar eof eatchar n x check io stdin stdin eof not ok x x report the situation x return x x x watch for long lines if needed x if maxcol length maxcol col len buf maxcol x report the situation x return x x x return length x return length x x x x output till dot output a set of lines until by itself is read x x this routine will read a set of lines until but not including x a single line with is read the format of the output is x x leader tfirst line x tnext line x tnext line x x x this routine will not return if i o error or eof x xvoid xoutput till dot output oname leader x file output entry s output file stream x char oname name of the output file x char leader the lead text for the first line x x char buf bufsiz input buffer x int count lines read x int done false true finished reading input x x instruct the user on how to input x printf nto end input enter a line with a single period n x x read lines until or eof x count x while done x issue the prompt x printf s t count leader x fflush stdout x x get the line x if get line buf bufsiz max col x printf nline too long please re enter n t x continue x x x note if was read x if strcmp buf n x done true x x x write line if we read something x if done x fprintf output s t s count leader buf x check io output oname eof not ok x x x x if no lines read at least output something x if count x fprintf output s t n leader x check io output oname eof not ok x x return x x x x col len determine the highest that a string would reach x x given a string this routine returns that a string would reach x if the string were printed at column tab stops are assumed x to start at x xint xcol len string x char string the string to examine x x int col current column x char p current char x x scan the string x for col p string p p n p x note the column shift x col p t col col x x if p n x col x x x return the highest column x return col x x x x check io check for eof or i o error on a stream x x does not return if eof or i o error x xvoid xcheck io stream name eof ok x file stream the stream to check x char name the name of this stream x int eof ok eof ok or eof not ok x x test for i o error x if ferror stream x fprintf stderr s error on s program name x perror x exit x x test for eof x else if eof ok eof not ok feof stream x fprintf stderr s eof on s n program name x exit x x return x x x x uuencode uuencode a file x x perform the uuencoding process identical to the process performed x by the uuencode utility x x this routine implements the algorithm described in the uuencode x bsd reno man page x xvoid xuuencode output oname infile iname umode uname x file output output file stream x char oname output filename x file infile input file stream x char iname input filename x int umode the mode to put on the uuencode file x char uname name to put on the uuencode file x x char buf uuencode len the uuencode buffer x int read len actual number of chars read x int val bit chunk from buf x char filler filler uuencode pad text x char p x x x output the initial uuencode header x x fprintf output begin o s n umode uname x check io output oname eof not ok x x x clear out the input buffer x x for p buf p buf sizeof buf sizeof buf p x p x x x x we will process uuencode len chars at a time forming x a single output line each time x x while read len fread buf sizeof buf uuencode len infile x x x the first character is the length character x x fputc uuencode read len output x check io output oname eof not ok x x x we will convert bits at a time thus we will convert x sets of bits into sets of uuencoded bits x x for p buf read len read len p x x bits to x val p x f x fputc uuencode val output x check io output oname eof not ok x x bits to x val p x p x f x fputc uuencode val output x check io output oname eof not ok x x bits to x val p x c p x x fputc uuencode val output x check io output oname eof not ok x x bits to x val p x f x fputc uuencode val output x check io output oname eof not ok x x x end of uuencode len line x fputc n output x check io output oname eof not ok x x x clear out the input buffer don t depend on bzero or memset x x for p buf p buf sizeof buf sizeof buf p x p x x x x check the last read on the input file x check io infile iname eof ok x x write end of uuencode file x fprintf output c nend n uuencode filler x check io output oname eof not ok x shar eof chmod mkentry c echo restore of mkentry c failed set wc c mkentry c wc c if test wc c then echo original size current size wc c fi obfuscate info echo x extracting obfuscate info text sed s x shar eof obfuscate info x obfuscated contest information x xcopyright c landon curt noll larry bassel xall rights reserved permission for personal education or non profit use is xgranted provided this this copyright and notice are included in its entirety xand remains unaltered all other uses must receive prior permission in writing xfrom both landon curt noll and larry bassel x xthe international obfuscated c code contest ioccc in the sprit of xco operation is willing mention other programming contents as space xpermits x xhow to have your contest included in this file x x if you wish the ioccc judges to include your contest in this file x send a request to x x judges toad com x x we request that contest descriptions be limited to lines and to x not exceed bytes we typically request that your contest x include a current description of the ioccc x x in order to be included in this file for given year we must x receive a current description no earlier than jan utc and x no later than feb utc agreement to publish your x contest must also be obtained prior to feb annual contests x that fail to submit a new entry will be dropped from this file x xofficial disclaimer pardon the officialese x x the contents noted below other than the ioccc are not affiliated x with the ioccc nor are they endorsed by the ioccc we reserve the x right to refuse to print information about a given contest x x the information below was provided by the particular contest x organizer s and printed by permission please contact the x contest organizer s directly regarding their contents x xwith that official notice given we present for your enjoyment the following xinformation about contents x x x x th international obfuscated c contest x x the original obfuscated contest x x obfuscate tr v cated cating cates a to render obscure x b to darken to confuse their emotions obfuscated x their judgment llat obfuscare to darken ob intensive x lat fuscare to darken fuscus dark obfuscation n x obfuscatory adj x x goals of the contest x x to write the most obscure obfuscated c program under the rules below x to show the importance of programming style in an ironic way x to stress c compilers with unusual code x to illustrate some of the subtleties of the c language x to provide a safe forum for poor c code x x the ioccc is the grandfather of usenet programming contests since x this contest demonstrated that a program that simply works x correctly is not sufficient the ioccc has also done much to add x the arcane word obfuscated back into the english language x see the new hacker s dictionary by eric raymond x x you are strongly encouraged to read the new contest rules before x sending any entries the rules and sometimes the contest email x address itself change over time a valid entry one year may x be rejected in a later year due to changes in the rules the typical x start date for contests is in early march contest rules are normally not x finalized and posted until the beginning of the contest the typical x closing date for contests are in early may x x the rules and the guidelines may and often do change from year to x year you should be sure you have the current rules and guidelines x prior to submitting entries to obtain them send email to the address x above and use the subject send rules x x one may obtain winners of previous contests to date via ftp from x x host ftp uu net x user anonymous x pass yourname yourhost x dir pub ioccc x x as a last resort previous winners may be obtained by sending email x to the above address please use the subject send year winners x where year is a single digit year a year range or all x x x x th international obfuscated perl contest x by landon noll larry wall x x this content is being planned someday when landon larry are not too x busy they will actually get around to posting the first set of rules x x landon says yes i know that i said we would have a contest in x but other existing projects got in the way hopefully x something will be developed after nov x x x x nd international obfuscated postscript contest x jonathan monsarrat jgm cs brown edu x alena lacova alena nikhef nl x x a contest of programming skills and knowledge exclusively for the x postscript programming language its purpose x x to spread knowledge of postscript and its details x to applaud those with the best tricks x to prove that humans can beat those damnable machine generators at x their own game by writing the most obscure and mysterious postscript x programs ever x x winners will receive the fame and attention that goes with having their x program entry posted as a winner to programmers world wide x x the contest rules and results are available by ftp as x wilma cs brown edu pub postscript obfuscated shar or individually x in the obfuscated directory the judges will post the rules x in november to comp lang postscript on usenet and other places x send questions to jgm cs brown edu x x categories include best obfuscated postscript best artwork x most compact best interactive program most useful and x anything so unusual and creative that it deserves an award x x the judges will choose the winners of each category x x alena lacova is a system administrator at nikhef institute for high x energy and nuclear physics in the netherlands she is the author of x the postscript chaos programs which draw julia sets mandelbrot sets x and other kinds of fractal functions x x jonathan monsarrat is a graduate student from mit and brown university x in the u s a he is the faq maintainer for the usenet newsgroup x comp lang postscript and the author of the postscript zone and lametex x x shar eof chmod obfuscate info echo restore of obfuscate info failed set wc c obfuscate info wc c if test wc c then echo original size current size wc c fi exit sunnyvale residents vote landon noll for sunnyvale city council seat
comp.windows.x	re problem with xvertext package in article mar sierra com dkarr sierra com david karr writes i might have a need in the future to display rotated text i noticed the xvertext package on the net it looks very good but it has one slight problem the api to it assumes you have a font name not an already loaded font it shouldn t be too difficult to split up the function into two interface routines one with a font name and one with an xfontstruct but i thought i would ask the author alan richardson mppa uk ac sussex syma first in case he was planning this already unfortunately his email address bounced does alan r or the current maintainer of xvertext see this the e mail address you mentioned above is for use with the u k as you know the brits do everything backwards so the real address from the states is mppa syma sussex ac uk give it a try harvard ucbvax uwvax astroatc ftms brown or uu psi com ftms brown rutgers internet brown wi extrel com or ftms brown astroatc uucp cs wisc edu
comp.windows.x	re gadgets vs widgets motif managers take a very simplistic approach to the way they handle events for gadgets they track for all events such as motion notify wether or not the gadget expresses interest in the events as a result gadgets typically generate a great deal more network traffic those with x terminals might find a noticable network performance drop as a result really what s the point using gadgets then it is a case of memory vs network performance tradeoff gadgets save both client and server memory but memory is easily expandable while network performance is not so if i were designing motif i would at least make it possible to avoid using gadgets at present you really don t have a choice because motif forces you to use gadgets in menus and in various other places adrian nye o reilly and associates inc i ve been using the xmgraph widget that s been floating around and i noticed the performance is significantly better using gadgets perhaps even faster i had heard in an old programming course that gadgets were no longer any benefit to performance and that it s just as well to use widgets everywhere so why would pushbutton gadgets be a lot quicker than pushbuttons in the graph should i start putting gadgets back into my long pulldown menus xmgraph manages children connected by xmarc widgets in a directed network type graph with automatic layout capability bill schlumberger geco prakla internet kayser delft sgp slb com
comp.windows.x	re trouble compiling x r on sunos epstein trwacs fp trw com jeremy epstein writes dmm head cfa harvard edu david meleedy writes description of compiling problems deleted gcc fpcc struct return o bmtoa bmtoa o o funroll loops l lib xmu lxmu l lib xt l extensions lib l lib x l afs cfa syste m sun c usr head lib x x r ld undefined symbol xgetvisualinfo xfree xinternatom etc there s a bug in sunos which is alluded to in the faq although there it s talking about x r as being affected you need to force libxmu to be linked statically rather than dynamically which works around the linker error the simplest thing to do is edit each of the makefiles where there s a failure and change the line which reads xmulib l xmusrc lxmu to xmulib l xmusrc bstatic lxmu bdynamic no this is only relevant for openwindows x as shipped with sunos it is not relevant for mit r mit r should compile without problems casper
comp.windows.x	re help building x r with gcc in article apr etrog se citri edu au tim kimba catt citri edu au tim liddelow writes can people please send me any hints on building x r with gcc is there any pitfalls to be avoided any hints i would appreciate hearing other peoples stories on this i have been building x with gcc since and the only time i had trouble was when the position independant code option broke so i couldn t use gcc to build sun shared libraries the important thing to do is to follow the tips given in the gcc release gcc generates code that requires libgcc and you should take that into account when deciding which compiler to use for the libraries michael salmon include standard disclaimer include witty saying include fancy pseudo graphics ericsson telecom ab stockholm
comp.windows.x	getting pseudo tty in x motif hi i am about to write an application in x motif that will require the embedding of a pseudo tty so before i re invent the wheel has anyone written gotten a motif widget that does the job otherwise i would appreciate any pointers to make such a beast my environment is x r motif and x r motif if this helps thanks in advance arthur lim email arthur mailhost scs com sg
comp.windows.x	experiences of desqview x i need to have pcs and sparcstations run the same application namely microsoft project the original system ran on the pc now it needs to be expanded to allow unix users to work with the application the current proposal is to use desqview x as a display server for the application i would like to know your experiences with using desqview x to run an application on a pc and displaying on a sparcstation i ve heard that the network traffic is slow replies only by e mail please thanks in advance o willie willie wilson analog com
comp.windows.x	re teleuse uim x and c does anyone have any good ideas on how to integrate c code elegantly with teleuse uim x interface architect generated code source would be great but any suggestions are welcome it s my understanding that the next release of uim x due out last february has full support for c i use xdesigner which does not have the interpreter or ui meta languages of these other tools but does fully support c code generation reusable templates via c classes which are generated a variety of other handy features for using c and layout functions in different ways and generates motif code including drag n drop internationalization etc fits in quite nicely with doug young s paradigm for c motif available in the us from vi corp in europe from imperial software london see faq for details bill schlumberger geco prakla kayser delft sgp slb com
comp.windows.x	re private colormaps widget creation you are right in supposing that the problem is with the xmncolormap xtncolormap for truly literate beings not being set what you want to do is start your application with your new colormap this can be a chicken and egg sort of problem however if you look at the xt faq there is an example that should show how it can be done if not let me know and maybe i can improve the example pete pete ware ware cis ohio state edu cis dept ohio state university w bolz hall neil ave h columbus oh
comp.windows.x	xtshellstrings xtstrings hello does somebody know the functions xtshellstrings and xtstrings i haven t found them in any librarys not xm xt nor x and i need them to install a tool any hints greatly appreciated please reply via e mail thanks in advance christian wilk i ve seen things you people wouldn t believe technical university of munich attack ships on fire off the shoulder of orion munich germany i watched c beams glitter in the dark near the tannhauser gate all those moments will be lost wilk informatik tu muenchen de in time like tears in rain time to die roy batty
comp.windows.x	re xtshellstrings xtstrings in article apr informatik tu muenchen de wilk informatik tu muenchen de christian wilk writes hello does somebody know the functions xtshellstrings and xtstrings i haven t found them in any librarys not xm xt nor x and i need them to install a tool any hints greatly appreciated please reply via e mail they aren t functions they are character arrays the standard strings are either defined as string constants or character pointers into xtshellstrings and xtstrings determined by xtstringdefines your libraries were compiled with this defined and your application with it undefined so simply recompile one or the other it is probably worth adding dxtstringdefines to your cflags michael salmon include standard disclaimer include witty saying include fancy pseudo graphics ericsson telecom ab stockholm
comp.windows.x	xbell i have a program produces a continuous tone by calling xbell repeatedly at an interval equal to the duration of the bell if it is run more than once on a display the tones are buffered in the x server and the tone contunues after all occurrences of the program have exited is there a convenient way of preventing this e g by emptying the x server bell buffer when each program exits disclaimer please note that the above is a personal view and should not be construed as an official comment from the jet project
comp.windows.x	re honors degrees do they mean anything in article tkld apr burns cogsci ed ac uk tkld cogsci ed ac uk kevin davidson writes in my opinion a programming degree is still worth having yes but a cs degree is not a programming degree does anybody know of a computing course where programming is taught computer science is a branch of maths or the course i did was i ve also done a software engineering course much more practical and likely to be the sort of thing an employer really wants rather than what they think they want but also did not teach programming the ability to program was an entry requirement at robert gordon university programming was the main most time consuming start of the course the first two years consisted of five subjects software engineering pascal c unix computer engineering assembler computer theory lisp prolog mathematics statistics and communication skills how to pass interviews intelligence tests and group discussions e g how to survive a helicopter crash in the north sea the third year industrial placement was spent working for a computer company for a year the company could be anywhere in europe there was a special travel allowance scheme to cover the visiting costs of professors the fourth year included operating systems c modula software engineering c assembler real time laboratory c assembler and computing theory lisp there were also group projects in nd and th years where students worked in teams to select their own project or decide to work for an outside company the only disadvantage being that specifications would change suddenly in the first four years there was a weighting between courseworks and exams for most subjects however in the honours year this was reduced to a split between an individual project and final exams no coursework assessment are all computer science courses like this btw we started off with students in our first year and were left with by honours year also every course is tutored separately not easy trying to sleep when you are in student class cheers michael michael s a robb tel the problem with bolt on software engineer fax software is making sure the spider systems limited e mail bolts are the right size edinburgh eh ng michaelr spider co uk anonymous
comp.windows.x	comp windows x frequently asked questions faq archive name x faq part last modified subject where can i get an x based plotting program these usually are available from uucp sites such as uunet or other sites as marked please consult the archie server to find more recent versions gnuplot x xplot postscript and a bunch of other drivers export lcs mit edu and elsewhere contrib gnuplot tar z gl plot x output only comp sources unix volume graph yallara cs rmit oz au pub graph tar z comp sources unix volume pdraw drawplot d and d x ps scam berkeley edu src local dplot tar z scam berkeley edu src local contour tar z scam berkeley edu src local drawplot tar z uunet ftp contrib drawplot tar z xgraph plot zoom outputs ps or hpgl shambhala berkeley edu pub xgraph tar z sun ruf uni freiburg de x contrib xgraph tar z nisc jvnc net pub xgraph tar z comp sources x volume or many other sites ace gr formerly xvgr and xmgr xy plotting tools ftp ccalmr ogi edu xview version ccalmr pub acegr xvgr tar z motif version ccalmr pub acegr xmgr tar z mirrored on export in contrib acegr xgobi an interactive dynamic scatter plotting tool from bellcore lib stat cmu edu general xgobi log in as statlib with your email as the password or send email to statlib lib stat cmu edu containing the one line message send xgobi from general information from debby swayne dfs bellcore com robot a scientific xview based graph plotting and data analysis tool ftp astro psu edu pub astrod robotx tar z plotmtv a multi purpose d d plotter tanqueray berkeley edu pub plotmtv tar z thanks in part to emv ox com ed vielmetti geoff veritas com geoffrey leach paul a scowen uk spacsun rice edu black beno css gov mike black subject where can i get an x based spreadsheet a version of sc for x and which supports lotus files is available from vernam cs uwm edu in xspread tar z it also includes graphing functions information soft eng cs uwm edu the gnu package oleo is available in prep ai mit edu pub gnu oleo tar z it can generate postscript renditions of spreadsheets also several of the below are part of integrated office productivity tools which may also include word processing email conferencing image processing and drawing painting among other features vendor product contact information access technology informix wingz quality software products q calc exclaim ca unipress q calc uniplex uniplex digital decdecision digital applix aster x applix ais xess info ais com bbn software products bbn slate slate offer bbn com elsid software systems ripcam sas by the sas institute now has a spreadsheet module the x version is available on the current popular risc platforms subject where can i get x based project management software vendor product contact information productivity solutions ultra planner quality software products masterplan version sales qsp com digital tools inc autoplan nasa compass service cossack cosmic uga edu gec marconi software systems gecomo plus gec marconi software systems size plus tei inc vue mantix cascade advanced management solutions schedule publisher auburn university thanks to pete phillips pete egh qc co uk thanks to atul chhabra atul nynexst com subject where can i get an x based postscript previewer ghostscript is distributed by the free software foundation and includes a postscript interpreter and a library of graphics primitives version is now available the major site is prep ai mit edu gspreview by the computing laboratory of the university of kent at canterbury is an x user interface wcl based to the ghostscript interpreter the source is available for anonymous ftp from export lcs mit edu as gspreview tar z ghostview by tim theisen tim cs wisc edu is full function user interface for ghostscript check ftp cs wisc edu or prep ai mit edu for pub ghostview tar z there are also several executables available on ftp cs wisc edu pub x ghostview exe for various architectures also scriptworks is harlequin s software package for previewing and printing postscript r descriptions of text and graphics images previewers for x are available for information call or send email to scriptworks request harlqn co uk image network s xps supports the full postscript language and renders in color grayscale or monochrome fonts displayed are anti aliased info image network digital s dxpsview runs on uws and sun s pageview runs with the x news server subject where can i get an x based gks package the latest freely available xgks can be obtained from xgks request unidata ucar edu this is a c implementation derived from the x r contrib xgks from ibm and the university of illinois the release is on unidata ucar edu as pub xgks tar z in addition grafpak gks is available from advanced technology center gksul is available from gks ulowell edu ulowell cs department it is a b implementation which includes drivers for a variety of devices it can be passed an x window id to use the package includes both c and fortran bindings from dsrand mitre org and from stew hanauma stanford edu an xgkswidget is produced by neil bowers neilb leeds dcs neilb dcs leeds ac uk the latest conforms with the new version of xgks it is available on export in contrib xgks widget tar z subject where can i get an x based pex package the first official release of pex is with x r fix brings the sample implementation server to version the final pex protocol specification is now available via anonymous ftp to export lcs mit edu in the directory pub docs pex changes made from the public review draft are listed in the file p changes in that directory the final pexlib document is on export in pub docs pexlib there is now available from the university of illinois an implementation of the pex specification called uipex it contains a near complete implementation of phigs and phigs plus the file pub uipex uipex tar z is on a cs uiuc edu the porting platform was an rt running questions and comments can to go uipex cs uiuc edu in addition the pext toolkit by rich thomson rthomson dsd es com is available on export as pext tar z it includes a pex widget making it easier to include pex in xt based programs subject where can i get an x based tex or dvi previewer the xtex previewer for tex files is available from a number of archive sites including uunet the current version is usually on ftp cs colorado edu in seetex tar z pre converted fonts are also on that machine the distribution all includes mftobdf which converts pk gf and pxl fonts to bdf format where they can then be compiled for use by your local x server the xdvi dvi previewer is fairly comprehensive and easy to use it is also available from a number of sites including uunet and export lcs mit edu current version is patchlevel subject where can i get an x based troff previewer x r has two previewers for device independent troff the supported client xditview and the contributed but well maintained xtroff an earlier version of xtroff also appeared on the r contributed source xditview is also in the r distribution in addition the xman client can be used to preview troff documents which use the man macros i e man pages if psroff is used its output can be viewed with a postscript previewer in addition xproof an x previewer for ditroff has been contributed by marvin solomon solomon cs wisc edu version is available on export in contrib xproof elan computer group ca produces eroff a modified troff implementation and elan express an x eroff previewer softquad usa only mail sq uu net or mail sq com offers softquad publishing software including a substantially rewritten troff formatter a better intermediate language with backwards compatibility and an x r r previewer this is the package adopted by at t s own mis department and used in and re sold by many parts of at t information from ian darwin softquad ian sq com image network toxroff ca offers the xroff package which includes a fine modified troff implementation and a set of x based page previewers this is the package oem ed by several hardware vendors mostly courtesy moraes cs toronto edu mark moraes subject where can i get a wysiwyg interface builder a new release of the dirt interface builder by richard hesketh works with x r and includes some support for the motif widget set from the readme this builder allows the interactive creation and rapid prototyping of x user interfaces using the x toolkit and a number of widget sets dirt generates wc widget creation resource files and this distribution also includes the widget creation library version with the exception of the demos and mri ari source code with the kind permission of its author david e smyth check dirt readme dirt a tar z and dirt ps z on export lcs mit edu the interviews c toolkit contains a wysiwig interface builder called ibuild ibuild generates code for an interviews application complete with imakefile and an x resource file documentation is pub papers ibuild ps on interviews stanford edu quest windows s objectviews c package includes an interactive building tool druid demonstrational rapid user interface development runs on sparc machines using osf motif it is intended eventually to be a full uims but apparently now has only support for creating the presentation components for which it generates c uil code info singh g kok ch ngan ty druid a system for demonstrational rapid user interface development proc acm siggraph symp on user interface software and technology uist acm ny pp the byo interface builder is implemented in tcl also in addition these commercial products unsorted are available in final or prerelease form the following the product name indicates that the product is known to allow the designer to specify for each widget whether a particular resource is hard coded or written to an application defaults file for at least one form of output some are much more than user interface tools some are full user interface management systems information on most is not up to date product name look feel code output vendor hp interface motif c xm hp visual edge architect uimx open look express open look c xol helper lib at t visual edge uimx motif c xm helper code visual edge distributors vuit motif c uil r w dec digital x designer motif c xm c uil imperial software technology ltd sales ist co uk xfacemaker xfm motif c c script c like procedural language c uil nsl requests nsl fr builder xcessory motif c xm c uil r w ics ada info ics com xbuild motif c xm c uil nixdorf xbuild nixdorf com ixbuild motif c xm c uil ixos software karl ixos uucp teleuse motif c xm c uil r w telesoft gui info telesoft com ezx motif c xm helper lib c uil ada sunrise info sunrise com snapix motif c xm adnt openwindows developers open look gil c xview sun guide gil c xview gil c olit gil c postscript for tnt exocode sxm motif c xm expert object exocode plus open look xview tae xw motif c xw xm c tcl tae control language like uil needs helper library vax fortran ada c nasa goddard mob xsculptor motif openlook c xm uil c xol kovi psm pm msw c uil lancorp motif mac pty ltd fax australia motifation motif c xm aka edv fax uib open look motif c oi parcplace look for magazine reviews for more complete comparisons of meta file formats documentation real ease of use etc unix world and unix review often carry articles in addition neuron data makes open interface a window system independent object toolkit which supports interfaces which are or resemble supersets of mac windows and motif and open look the package includes an interface builder in addition the grammi builder supports the development of ada x applications using its own set of objects which are planned to have a motif look grammi is written in ada and generates ada specs and stub bodies grammi in addition these non wysiwyg but related products may help for goals of rapid prototyping of the application interface wcl the widget creation library basically describes the widget hierarchy and actions in a resources file available from fine archive servers everywhere including devvax jpl nasa gov in pub wcl provides a very thin layer over xt without any internal tweaking version is current winterp an xlisp based motif toolkit allows for interpretive programming the copy on the r tape is outdated get a copy off export or email to winterp source hplnpm hplabs hp com the serpent uims permits the building of user interfaces without specific knowledge of coding but with an understanding of attributes being set on a particular motif widget beta release is available from ftp sei cmu edu and can be found in pub serpent serpent is also available on export lcs mit edu in contrib serpent email questions can go to serpent sei cmu edu a commercial version of serpent is available as agora from aset woodhaven drive pittsburgh pa garnet is a common lisp based gui toolkit information is available from garnet cs cmu edu metacard is a hypertext rapid application development environment similar to apple claris corporation s hypercard info metacard com metacard is available via anonymous ftp from ftp metacard com csn org or subject where can i find x tools callable from shell scripts i want to have a shell script pop up menus and yes no dialog boxes if the user is running x several tools in the r contrib area were developed to satisfy these needs yorn pops up a yes no box xmessage displays a string etc there are several versions of these tools few if any have made it to the r contrib area though they may still be available on various archive sites in addition richard hesketh rlh ukc ac uk has posted the xmenu package to comp sources x v i xmenu for of n choices two versions of xprompt have been posted to comp sources x the latter being an unauthorized rewrite r forsman thoth reef cis ufl edu there is a version of xmenu available from comp sources x it is being worked on and will likely be re released xp tar z xpick tar z and xzap tar z on export s contrib are tools by gerry tomlinson newcastle ac uk which act as x versions of the simple display and choice making tools in k p xtpanel lets the user build a panel containing interactive objects such as buttons sliders text fields etc either from the command line or using a simple scripting language it is available for anonymous ftp from hanauma stanford edu as pub x xtpanel tar z and may also be found in the alt sources archives subject where can i get an x based debugger xdbx an x interface to the dbx debugger is available via ftp from export the current version is patchlevel an x interface to gdb called xxgdb is more like xdbx it is part of comp sources x volume xxgdb tar z is on export mxgdb is a motif interface to gdb by jim tsillas jtsillas bubba ma bull com version was released ups is a source level debugger which runs under the x and sunview window systems on sun and dec platforms it is available from export as contrib ups tar z also ups to patch z and unix hensa ac uk in pub misc unix ups or try mail to archive unix hensa ac uk unofficial fixes by rod armstrong rod sj ate slb com are on unix hensa ac uk in misc unix ups contrib rod sj ate slb com also mips produces a highly customizable wcl based visual debugger you should be able to use sun s dbxtool with its x news server the codecenter source level debugger available on most major platforms includes an x based interface at t offers the examine graphical interface an x interface to dbx and c dbx for sun and sun and sdb and sdb for and b platforms call or contact examine mvuxi att com for more information solbourne offers pdb its x based debugger for c c and fortran pdb uses the oi toolkit and runs in either open look or motif mode sco info sco com offers dbxtra as part of several development systems lucid s energize programming system a tightly integrated development environment for c and c programs incorporates a graphical user interface on top of an extended version of gdb info lucid info lucid com or subject how can i tee an x program identically to several displays there are several protocol multiplexer tools which provide for the simultaneous display of x clients on any number of machines xmx an x protocol multiplexor is available from wilma cs brown edu as pub xmx tar z it works independently of the server and does not affect the application being shared it was developed for use in the electronic classroom xtv is a conference program which can be used to duplicate the chalkboard on several displays release is available on the x r contrib tapes a more recent version is on ftp cs odu edu as pub wahab xtv r tar z shx from michael altenhofen of digital equipment gmbh cec karlsruhe also does this it is a wysiwis what you see is what i see package in the context of a computer based learning training tool to provide online help from remote tutors but is also useful for general window sharing information shx nestvx enet dec com shx can be found on export and gatekeeper dec com pub x contrib shx tar z crl dec com pub x contrib shx tar z modifications to shx for color mapping and private color allocation by mark j handley m handley cs ucl ac uk are on cs ucl ac uk in car shx car tar z xtrap is implemented as a server library extension and can be used to record and then replay an x session it is available as gatekeeper dec com pub x contrib xtrap v tar z export lcs mit edu contrib xtrap v tar z wscrawl can be used as a multi person paint program it s available on sax stanford edu as wscrawl shar z shdr implements a simple shared whiteboard without a chalk passing mechanism it s available on parcftp xerox com as pub europarc shdr tar z sketchpad is a distributed interactive graphical editor particularly designed for sketching sources have been posted to alt sources and are available from ftp igd fhg de in ftp incoming sketchpad the nestor project is described in upgrading a window system for tutoring functions michael altenhofen et al the proceedings of the exug conference also of use hewlett packard co has a commercial product hp sharedx which works under hp ux currently on their and series workstations and their hp rx x stations machines receiving shared windows can be any x server hp sharedx consists of a server extensions and a motif based user interface process contact your local hp sales rep for more information ibm offers a commercial product sun offers multi user confering software called showme insoft mechanicsburg pa usa offers multi user confering software called communique thanks in part to scott spectra com tim scott and to peter cigehn peter lulea trab se subject topic building the x distribution topic needs updating to r subject what s a good source of information on configuring the x build this faq includes information on a number of gotchas that can bite you on particular system however the best source of general information on building the x release is found in the release notes the file is bundled separately from the rest of the release so if it s become separated from your sources you can ftp another copy separately the file relnotes ms ps txt at the top of the distribution the file relnotes is also available from the xstuff mail server in addition o reilly associates s volume on x administration includes information on configuring and building x subject why doesn t my sun with a cg work with r apparently gcc is the problem it seems to produce fine code for all sun displays except for the cgsix the new sungx o distributed with fix may fix the problem note not known to work on solaris subject why doesn t my sun with sunos know about dlsym etc if you get errors with dlsym dlopen dlclose undefined link with libdl a add ldl to your and eventually your site def you may want to surround it with bstatic ldl bdynamic if you add it to the extra libraries variable since syslibs get added after extra libraries on the eventual compilation command otherwise you may not have a shared libdl or compile the stubs shared thanks to joe backo joe backo east sun com subject what is this strange problem building x clients on sunos in sunos sun fixed a shared library bug in ld which conflicts with the way x r builds the shared xmu library causing these symbols to be undefined when building some x clients get wmshellwidgetclass get applicationshellwidgetclass compiling bstatic lxmu bdynamic appears to work to solve the problem if you are using openwindows x r based xt please contact your local sun office and request the following patches patch i d description x openwindows libxt jumbo patch x openwindows undefined symbols when using shared libxmu greg earle earle sun com a source patch for use with the mit x r libraries was developed by conrad kimball cek sdc boeing com it retrofits into r some fixes made in r to get around this problem the patch is on export in contrib x r sunos patch version z subject why can t gcc compile x r on my sparc i used gcc to compile the whole distribution but i get several segmentation faults when running x note first that gcc on risc machines does not necessarily result in any performance increase it certainly is not as noticeable as it is on the x or vax platforms here is the problem gcc and cc use incompatible methods of passing structures as arguments and returning them as function values so when gcc compiled parts of x are linked with sun supplied functions that pass or return structs run time errors occur affected programs include rgb and the server this is from the gcc manual on the sparc gnu cc uses an incompatible calling convention for structures it passes them by including their contents in the argument list whereas the standard compiler passes them effectively by reference this really ought to be fixed but such calling conventions are not yet supported in gnu cc so it isn t straightforward to fix it the convention for structure returning is also incompatible and fpcc struct return does not help you can duck the problem either by using cc throughout or by using it for just the routines which cause incompatibilities the problem cannot be solved with compilation flags files which need to be compiled using cc include server os bsd oscolor c rgb rgb c in addition several of the inet functions use structs as args or return values clients xhost xhost c clients xauth gethost c calls to inet addr in lib clx socket c and lib x xconndis c are possibly harmless as they don t involve structs collected by bashford scripps edu don bashford subject what are these i o errors running x built with gcc when i try to run xinit or the xsun server i get the error getting interface configuration operation not supported on socket fatal server bug no screens found running the gcc fixincludes script apparently didn t work you can do this simple test include sys ioctl h siocgifconf run that through cc e and gcc e the last line of output is the piece of interest it should be identical modulo irrelevant differences like whitespace if the gcc version has x where the cc version has i your fixincludes run didn t work for some reason or other go back to your gcc sources and run fixincludes then rebuild the x distribution if they are identical try running a make clean in mit server and rebuilding just to make sure everything gets compiled with the proper include files courtesy der mouse mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu subject what are these problems compiling x r on the older sun in mit server ddx sun suncg c c we have found missing defines for cg ac monolen cg bc monolen cg ac enblen cg bc enblen what should these be the r errata list distributed after x r mentions that you can add these lines to the file on older sunos versions e g to compile define cg ac monolen define cg ac enblen cg ac monolen define cg bc monolen cg ac monolen define cg bc enblen cg ac monolen however the sun should not actually ever have the cg device and so references to it can be removed from mit server ddx sun suninit c and the imakefile subject what are these problems compiling the x server on sunos the file sundev cg reg h isn t being found sun omitted sundev cg reg h from sunos remove the include from suncg c c and replace it with the line define cg vaddr color x the file has changed from earlier versions of sunos and should not be copied from another distribution subject what are these problems using r shared libraries on sunos all of the executables that i try to run have the following results ld so libxmu so not found or even ld so call to undefined procedure gethostname from xf a c if you are building with shared libraries on a sun remember that you need to run ldconfig as root after installing the shared libraries if you ve installed x on a file server run it on the server s clients too while building and installing the distribution you need to be careful to avoid linking against any existing x shared libraries you might have e g those distributed with openwindows you should make sure you do not have ld library path set in your environment during the build or the installation if you are going to keep xterm and xload as setuid programs please note that the shared libraries must be installed in usr lib usr local lib or usr lib for these programs to work or else those programs must be linked statically courtesy mit x consortium note also that the program mkfontdir is run as part of the build it attempts however to use the shared libraries before they have been installed you can avoid the errors by building mkfontdir statically pass bstatic to most c compilers subject can olit programs run with r xt xtqstring undefined this is a bug in the olit xtqstring was an external symbol that existed in x r upon which ow s libxt is based it wasn t documented and was removed in x r mit s guarantee of upward compatibility between the r and r libraries only applied to the documented interface a workaround is to temporarily set your ld library path to point to the x r or openwindows xt library that you linked the program against from barry margolin barmar think com from jeff francis jpf heliocentric com subject how do i get around the sunos security hole there is a security problem with certain r clients xterm and xload running under sunos that have been installed setuid root and are using shared libraries to avoid the problem do one of these make the program non setuid you should consult your system administrator concerning protection of resources e g ptys and dev kmem used by these programs to make sure that you do not create additional security problems at your site relink the programs statically using bstatic install the libraries before linking and link with absolute paths to the libraries from rws expo lcs mit edu bob scheifler the r version of xterm does this automatically by rebuilding xterm against the newly installed libraries when xterm is being installed this prevents an suid program from being built with libraries specified relatively note that this may cause an inconvenience when doing the installation from nfs mounted disks xload has been rewritten to avoid the problem subject how do i get around the frame buffer security hole on many systems the frame buffer is unsecured by default this permits anyone who can log into your workstation to peek at your windowing session by accessing the frame buffer directly or as less of a privacy issue but perhaps more annoying to accidentally start up a second x session on your console display check the man page for fbtab thanks to art mulder art cs ualberta ca subject topic building x programs subject what is imake imake is not a replacement for the make program instead it is a makefile generator that takes advantages of the include file and macro processing capabilities of the c preprocessor cpp to generate makefiles suitable for building software on a particular system although it is not specific to x the x release uses it to help solve a number of the configuration issues that arise in making such a large system widely portable imake has a fairly steep learning curve in part because the process by which the system specific configuration files system independent configuration files and individual imakefiles are melded to produce a makefile is not obvious there have been several different versions of imake the r r and r versions are different you can obtain information on imake from these sources the r and r release notes and imake man page include information on using imake to build x the r and r file mit config readme also contains useful information on the r tapes contrib doc imake imake tex is mark moraes r r guide to imake the r mit doc config usenixws paper ms contains a paper by jim fulton on an early version of imake paul dubois dubois primate wisc edu has written a useful explanation of how imake works and how to use it in configuring x for non supported systems the document is available from ftp primate wisc edu in the directory ftp pub imake stuff look for config x r ms troff and config x r ps postscript some supplemental appendices are nearby document version is now these imake papers are available by email mail a message body of send imake stuff help to almanac primate wisc edu see system administration imake friend of foe by dinah mcnutt in the november issue of sunexpert german readers should expect in june an article das meta make i make you make schwerelos by rainer klute in ix multiuser multitasking magazin directed at application programmers needing to write imakefiles an english language derivative of this article is in the x journal issue the o reilly x resource issue contains paul davey s article on demystifying imake alain brossard s working document full of tips on imake is in sasun epfl ch pub imakefile z subject where can i get imake versions are distributed with the r and r releases an earlier version is distributed with the x r release some third party toolkits redistribute versions of imake along with their own implementations of the template and configuration files there are no real standards for such configuration files although most current contributed software expects the templates distributed with x r export contains the r distribution unpacked so you can pick up imake without picking up the entire distribution a stand alone version of imake but one stemming from x r is in ftp germany eu net pub x misc imake imake pure tar z subject i have a program with an imakefile but no makefile what to do if you have r or r installed on your system run xmkmf this is a script which runs imake for you with the correct arguments the output is a makefile configured for your system and based on the imakefile then run make which will use that new makefile to compile the program subject why can t i link to the xlib shape routines when i try to compile certain programs i get the following link error undefined xshapequeryextension xshapecombinemask these routines are actually part of the shape extension to x shape which was introduced in the mit x r distribution and allows non rectangular windows like the other sample server extensions the shape extension will only run on a server which supports it pre x r servers as well as many vendor supplied servers do not support the shape extension in which case they will display rectangular windows anyway in order to use the shape extension you must link to the library libxext a in the x r distribution this library and the associated includes will be in the mit extensions directory if you do not have these files do not despair many freeware programs which use the shape extension can also be compiled without it by removing the dshape define from the makefile you can probably do this and compile successfully against your older vendor supplied x libraries from john b melby melby yk fujitsu co jp uunet uu net subject what are these problems with xtinherit not found on the sun when i run a x program that i wrote on a sunos or machine i get the error ld so symbol not found xtinherit what you are seeing is a side effect of a kludge in the r libxt a to get sun shared libraries working apparently you can t share a function that is both called and compared as xtinherit is this was handled by putting xtinherit in the same file as a function that is always used thereby guaranteeing that it would be loaded that is in initialize c where xttoolkitinitialize and xtinitialize reside these routines would normally be called you are probably seeing this error because your program is not a normal xt based program and does not call xttoolkitinitialize anywhere it may be a program that uses xt functions but never opens a connection to the x server osf motif s uil had this problem it called xtmalloc and other xt functions the solution is to add the call to your program the function does not have to be executed just linked in alternatively your program doesn t need any xt functions and is correct in not calling xttoolkitinitialize it may be an xlib or xview program in this case you can remove lxt from your link command it should not be necessary to link the shared libraries statically although this will certainly solve the problem from jordan hayes now jordan moorenet com and danny backx db sunbim be subject why can t i compile my r xaw contrib programs under the new x i have a program that worked well under x r when i try to link it under the current version of x i get this message undefined xtscrollbarsetthumb xttextsetinsertionpoint xttextreplace there were several name changes in the athena widget set in addition to the header files moving into x xaw these are mentioned in the r release notes in this case these functions are not really xt functions but are part of the xaw text widget and so have been renamed from xt to xaw subject topic programming problems and puzzles subject why doesn t my program get the keystrokes i select for sic the window manager controls how the input focus is transferred from one window to another in order to get keystrokes your program must ask the window manager for the input focus to do this you must set up what are called hints for the window manager if your applications is xlib based you can use something like the following xwmhints wmhints wmhints flags inputhint wmhints input true xsetwmhints dpy window wmhints if your application is based on the xt intrinsics you can set the xtninput resource to be true as you probably want to in any case if you don t have source you can start up the application with the resource input true certain window managers notably dxwm and olwm are very picky about having this done if you are using sun s openwindows olwm you can also add this resource to your defaults file to use clients that aren t icccm compliant openwindows focuslenience true mostly courtesy dave lemke of ncd and stuart marks of sun subject how do i figure out what window manager is running you can t reliably tell whatever mechanism you could use could be spoofed in any case for most cases you shouldn t care which window manager is running so long as you do things in an icccm conformant manner there are some cases in which particular window managers are known to do things wrong checking for particular hints placed on the window by the window manager so that you can sidestep the problem may be appropriate in these cases alternatively it may be appropriate to determine which window manager is running in order to take advantage of specific added features such as olwm s push pin menus in order to give your program added functionality beware of usurping the window manager s functions by providing that functionality even when it is missing this surely leads to future compatibility problems subject is there a skeleton x program available there is no general framework such as the transskel program for the macintosh which handles lots of the odds and ends and overhead of development under a window system and which can be used as a platform for additional development in x the problem is typically solved by using an interactive application builder tool or by using cut paste on existing x applications good applications which you might look to manipulate when you want to test just this one little thing include contrib clients xskel a simple r program that puts up a window and allows sketching in it and offers a starting point for quick hacks the xaw examples in the examples directory in the r and r distributions and the xlib hello world example in the r doc helloworld and r doc tutorials helloworld an updated version of this program which uses r xlib calls and current icccm conventions was posted in to comp windows x by glenn widener of tektronix in addition a sample xt program for xaw or xm by rainer klute showing how to open multiple displays and how to catch a broken display connection is available on export lcs mit edu in contrib mdisp tar z subject why does xtgetvalues not work for me sic the xtgetvalues interface for retrieving resources from a widget is sensitive to the type of variable your code may be doing something like this arg args int i int sensitive oops wrong data type i xtsetarg args i xtnsensitive sensitive i xtgetvalues widget args i but xtnsensitive is a boolean which on most machines is a single byte declaring the variable sensitive as boolean works properly this problem comes up often when using particular toolkits that redefine the xt types dimension and position code that assumes they are int will have similar problems if those types are actually short in general you are safe if you use the actual type of the resource as it appears in the widget s man page subject why don t xtconfigurewidget xtresizewidget xtmovewidget work you re probably trying to use these functions from application code they should be used only internally to widgets these functions are for a parent widget to change the geometry of its children other promising functions xtmakegeometryrequest and xtmakeresizerequest are also for use only by widgets in this case by a child to request a change from its parent the only way for your application to request a geometry change for a widget is to issue an xtsetvalues call setting some of the geometry resources although this will result in the widget internal functions being called your application code must use the standard xtsetvalues interface or risk the widgets data becoming corrupted the xlib calls xmovewindow and xresizewindow should similarly be avoided they shouldn t be used to change xtnx xtny xtnwidth or xtnheight subject why isn t there an xtreparentwidget call like xreparentwindow although there are various details of the current implementation of the xt internals which make reparenting difficult the major reason that no such call exists is that it remains undefined what the set of resources for the new widget should be resources are typically set based on the location in the instance hierarchy what resources should change if the instance moves what should happen to the widget s children and by the time such semantics are defined there would probably be little advantage over destroying the old widget and creating a new widget in the correct location with the desired resources as setting the resources correctly is the majority of work in creating a new widget note that reparenting is possible in the oi toolkit david b lewis faq craft uunet uu net just the faqs ma am joe friday david b lewis temporarily at but not speaking for visual inc day dbl visual com evening david craft uunet uu net
comp.windows.x	whole win on screen window placement on screen i would like to configure my system a hp unix to avoid that any corner of a given window is displayed outside of the visible screen the whole window should be visible and it should be impossible to move any window outside the visible aerea can this be done by configuring the window manager s resources can this be done on applikation level a hardcoded solution is possible but is it possible to have a upper limit of a given window size thank you for information and help
comp.windows.x	comp windows x frequently asked questions faq archive name x faq part last modified subject i m writing a widget and can t use a float as a resource value float resources are not portable the size of the value may be larger than the size of an xtpointer try using a pointer to a float instead the xaw scrollbar float resources are handled in this way subject is this a memory leak in the x r xtdestroywidget yes this is the unofficial fix for the x r destroy c destroy c thu jul lib xt destroy c thu jul xconsortium destroy c v swick exp plus unofficial patches in revisions and copyright by digital equipment corporation maynard massachusetts int i destroyrec dr app destroy list while i app destroy count if dr dispatch level dispatch level widget w dr widget if app destroy count bcopy char dr char dr app destroy count sizeof destroyrec xtphase destroy w else i dr int i destroyrec dr while i app destroy count xtphase destroy can result in calls to xtdestroywidget and these could cause app destroy list to be reallocated dr app destroy list i if dr dispatch level dispatch level widget w dr widget if app destroy count bcopy char dr char dr app destroy count i sizeof destroyrec xtphase destroy w else i from donna converse converse expo lcs mit edu subject are callbacks guaranteed to be called in the order registered although some books demonstrate that the current implementation of xt happens to call callback procedures in the order in which they are registered the specification does not guarantee such a sequence and supplemental authoritative documents i e the asente swick volume do say that the order is undefined because the callback list can be manipulated by both the widget and the application xt cannot guarantee the order of execution in general the callback procedures should be thought of as operating independently of one another and should not depend on side effects of other callbacks operating if a seqence is needed then the single callback to be registered can explicitly call other functions necessary thanks to converse expo lcs mit edu subject why doesn t xtdestroywidget actually destroy the widget xtdestroywidget operates in two passes in order to avoid leaving dangling data structures the function call marks the widget which is not actually destroyed until your program returns to its event loop subject how do i query the user synchronously using xt it is possible to have code which looks like this trivial callback which has a clear flow of control the calls to askuser block until answer is set to one of the valid values if it is not a yes answer the code drops out of the callback and back to an event processing loop void quit widget w xtpointer client xtpointer call int answer answer askuser w really quit if ret yes answer answer askuser w are you really positive if ret yes answer exit a more realistic example might ask whether to create a file or whether to overwrite it this is accomplished by entering a second event processing loop and waiting until the user answers the question the answer is returned to the calling function that function askuser looks something like this where the motif can be replaced with widget set specific code to create some sort of dialog box displaying the question string and buttons for ok cancel and help or equivalents int askuser w string widget w char string int answer ret none some not used marker widget dialog could cache carry but arg args int n xtappcontext context n xtsetarg args n xmnmessagestring xmstringcreateltor string xmstring default charset n xtsetarg args n xmndialogstyle xmdialog application modal n dialog xmcreatequestiondialog xtparent w string args n xtaddcallback dialog xmnokcallback response answer xtaddcallback dialog xmncancelcallback response answer xtaddcallback dialog xmnhelpcallback response answer xtmanagechild dialog context xtwidgettoapplicationcontext w while answer ret none xtapppending context xtappprocessevent context xtimall xtdestroywidget dialog blow away the dialog box and shell return answer the dialog supports three buttons which are set to call the same function when tickled by the user the variable answer is set when the user finally selects one of those choices void response w client call widget w xtpointer client xtpointer call int answer int client xmanycallbackstruct reason xmanycallbackstruct call switch reason reason case xmcr ok answer ret yes some define value break case xmcr cancel answer ret no break case xmcr help answer ret help break default return and the code unwraps back to the point at which an answer was needed and continues from there thanks to dan heller argv sun com further code is in dan s r contrib widgetwrap library subject how do i determine the name of an existing widget i have a widget id and need to know what the name of that widget is users of r and later are best off using the xtname function which will work on both widgets and non widget objects if you are still using r you can use this simple bit of code to do what you want note that it depends on the widget s internal data structures and is not necessarily portable to future versions of xt including r include x corep h include x xresource h string xtname widget widget widget will work with non widget objects return xrmnametostring widget core xrm name modified with suggestion by larry rogers larry boris webo dg com subject why do i get a baddrawable error drawing to xtwindow widget i m doing this in order to get a window into which i can do xlib graphics within my xt based program canvas xtcreatemanagedwidget widgetclass drawing area window xtwindow canvas get the window associated with the widget xdrawline window produces error the window associated with the widget is created as a part of the realization of the widget using a window id of null no window could create the error that you describe it is necessary to call xtrealizewidget before attempting to use the window associated with a widget note that the window will be created after the xtrealizewidget call but that the server may not have actually mapped it yet so you should also wait for an expose event on the window before drawing into it subject why do i get a badmatch error when calling xgetimage the badmatch error can occur if the specified rectangle goes off the edge of the screen if you don t want to catch the error and deal with it you can take the following steps to avoid the error make a pixmap the same size as the rectangle you want to capture clear the pixmap to background using xfillrectangle use xcopyarea to copy the window to the pixmap if you get a noexpose event the copy was clean use xgetimage to grab the image from the pixmap if you get one or more graphicsexpose events the copy wasn t clean and the x y width height members of the graphicsexpose event structures tell you the parts of the pixmap which aren t good get rid of the pixmap it probably takes a lot of memory thanks to oliver jones oj pictel com subject how can my application tell if it is being run under x a number of programs offer x modes but otherwise run in a straight character only mode the easiest way for an application to determine that it is running on an x display is to attempt to open a connection to the x server display xopendisplay display name if display do x stuff else do curses or something else where display name is either the string specified on the command line following display by convention or otherwise is char null in which case xopendisplay uses the value of display if set this is superior to simply checking for the existence a display command line argument or checking for display set in the environment neither of which is adequate subject how do i make a busy cursor while my application is computing is it necessary to call xdefinecursor for every window in my application the easiest thing to do is to create a single inputonly window that is as large as the largest possible screen make it a child of your toplevel window and it will be clipped to that window so it won t affect any other application it needs to be as big as the largest possible screen in case the user enlarges the window while it is busy or moves elsewhere within a virtual desktop substitute toplevel with your top most widget here similar code should work for xlib only applications just use your top window unsigned long valuemask xsetwindowattributes attributes ignore device events while the busy cursor is displayed valuemask cwdontpropagate cwcursor attributes do not propagate mask keypressmask keyreleasemask buttonpressmask buttonreleasemask pointermotionmask attributes cursor xcreatefontcursor xtdisplay toplevel xc watch the window will be as big as the display screen and clipped by its own parent window so we never have to worry about resizing xcreatewindow xtdisplay toplevel xtwindow toplevel unsigned int inputonly copyfromparent valuemask attributes where the maximum size above could be replaced by the real size of the screen particularly to avoid servers which have problems with windows larger than when you want to use this busy cursor map and raise this window to go back to normal unmap it this will automatically keep you from getting extra mouse events depending on precisely how the window manager works it may or may not have a similar effect on keystrokes as well in addition note also that most of the xaw widgets support an xtncursor resource which can be temporarily reset should you merely wish to change the cursor without blocking pointer events thanks to andrew wason aw cellar bae bellcore com dan heller argv sun com and mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu subject how do i fork without hanging my parent x program an x based application which spawns off other unix processes which continue to run after it is closed typically does not vanish until all of its children are terminated the children inherit from the parent the open x connection to the display what you need to do is fork then immediately in the child process close connectionnumber xtdisplay widget to close the file descriptor in the display information after this do your exec you will then be able to exit the parent alternatively before exec ing make this call which causes the file descriptor to be closed on exec void fcntl connectionnumber xdisplay f setfd thanks to janet anstett anstettj tramp colorado edu gordon freedman gjf duts ccc amdahl com greg holmberg holmberg frame com subject can i make xt or xlib calls from a signal handler no xlib and xt have no mutual exclusion for protecting critical sections if your signal handler makes such a call at the wrong time which might be while the function you are calling is already executing it can leave the library in an inconsistent state note that the ansi c standard points out that behavior of a signal handler is undefined if the signal handler calls any function other than signal itself so this is not a problem specific to xlib and xt the posix specification mentions other functions which may be called safely but it may not be assumed that these functions are called by xlib or xt functions you can work around the problem by setting a flag in the interrupt handler and later checking it with a work procedure or a timer event which has previously been added note the article in the x journal and the example in o reilly volume are in error thanks to pete ware ware cis ohio state edu and donna converse converse expo lcs mit edu subject what are these xlib sequence lost errors you may see these errors if you issue xlib requests from an xlib error handler or more likely if you make calls which generate x requests to xt or xlib from a signal handler which you shouldn t be doing in any case subject how can my xt program handle socket pipe or file input it s very common to need to write an xt program that can accept input both from a user via the x connection and from some other file descriptor but which operates efficiently and without blocking on either the x connection or the other file descriptor a solution is use xtappaddinput after you open your file descriptor use xtappaddinput to register an input handler the input handler will be called every time there is something on the file descriptor requiring your program s attention write the input handler like you would any other xt callback so it does its work quickly and returns it is important to use only non blocking i o system calls in your input handlers most input handlers read the file descriptor although you can have an input handler write or handle exception conditions if you wish be careful when you register an input handler to read from a disk file you will find that the function is called even when there isn t input pending xtappaddinput is actually working as it is supposed to the input handler is called whenever the file descriptor is ready to be read not only when there is new data to be read a disk file unlike a pipe or socket is almost always ready to be read however if only because you can spin back to the beginning and read data you ve read before the result is that your function will almost always be called every time around xtappmainloop there is a way to get the type of interaction you are expecting add this line to the beginning of your function to test whether there is new data if ioctl fd fionread n n return but because this is called frequently your application is effectively in a busy wait you may be better off not using xtappaddinput and instead setting a timer and in the timer procedure checking the file for input courtesy dan heller argv ora com mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu ollie jones oj pictel com subject how do i simulate a button press release event for a widget you can do this using xsendevent it s likely that you re not setting the window field in the event which xt needs in order to match to the widget which should receive the event if you re sending events to your own application then you can use xtdispatchevent instead this is more efficient than xsendevent in that you avoid a round trip to the server depending on how well the widget was written you may be able to call its action procedures in order to get the effects you want courtesy mark a horstman mh sarek sbc com subject why doesn t anything appear when i run this simple program the window xcreatesimplewindow the display root window size hints x size hints y size hints width size hints height border width blackpixel the display the screen whitepixel the display the screen xselectinput the display the window exposuremask buttonpressmask buttonreleasemask xmapwindow the display the window xdrawline the display the window the gc you are right to map the window before drawing into it however the window is not ready to be drawn into until it actually appears on the screen until your application receives an expose event drawing done before that will generally not appear you ll see code like this in many programs this code would appear after window was created and mapped while done xnextevent the display the event switch the event type case expose on expose events redraw xdrawline the display the window the gc break note that there is a second problem some xlib implementations don t set up the default graphics context to have correct foreground background colors so this program could previously include this code the gc values foreground blackpixel the display the screen e g the gc values background whitepixel the display the screen e g the gc xcreategc the display the window gcforeground gcbackground the gc values note the code uses blackpixel and whitepixel to avoid assuming that is black and is white or vice versa the relationship between pixels and and the colors black and white is implementation dependent they may be reversed or they may not even correspond to black and white at all also note that actually using blackpixel and whitepixel is usually the wrong thing to do in a finished program as it ignores the user s preference for foreground and background and also note that you can run into the same situation in an xt based program if you draw into the xtwindow w right after it has been realized it may not yet have appeared subject what is the difference between a screen and a screen the screen is an xlib structure which includes the information about one of the monitors or virtual monitors which a single x display supports a server can support several independent screens they are numbered unix unix unix etc the screen or screen number is the second digit the which can be thought of as an index into the array of available screens on this particular display connection the macros which you can use to obtain information about the particular screen on which your application is running typically have two forms one which takes a screen and one with takes both the display and the screen number in xt based programs you typically use xtscreen widget to determine the screen on which your application is running if it uses a single screen part of the confusion may arise from the fact that some of the macros which return characteristics of the screen have display in the names xdisplaywidth xdisplayheight etc subject can i use c with x motif xview the x r header files are compatible with c the motif header files are usable as is inside extern c however the definition of string in intrinsic h can conflict with the libg or other string class and needs to be worked around some other projects which can help wwl a set of c classes by jean daniel fekete to wrap x toolkit widgets available via anonymous ftp from export lcs mit edu as contrib wwl tar z or lri lri fr as pub wwl tar z it works by building a set of c classes in parallel to the class tree of the widgets the c interviews toolkit is obtainable via anonymous ftp from interviews stanford edu interviews uses a box glue model similar to that of tex for constructing user interfaces and supports multiple looks on the user interfaces some of its sample applications include a wysiwig document editor doc a macdraw like drawing program idraw and an interface builder ibuild things a class library written at the rome air force base by the strategic air command available as freeware on archive sites motif is a public domain library that defines c class wrappers for motif it adds an application class for e g initializing x and also integrates wcl and the xbae widget set this work was developed by ronald van loon rvloon cv ruu nl based on x a set of bindings done by the university of lowell graphics research laboratory the current sources are available from decuac dec com as pub x motif jul tar z the source code examples for doug young s object oriented programming with c and osf motif isbn do not include widget wrappers but do include a set of classes that encapsulates higher level facilities commonly needed by motif or other xt based applications check export in ftp contrib young c tar z rogue wave offers view h for c programmers using motif info or a product called commonview by glockenspiel ltd ireland apparently is a c based toolkit for multiple window systems including pm windows and x motif xv is sold by qualix fax it implements an interface from the gil files that sun s openwindows developers guide produces to xview wrapper classes in c uit is a set of c classes embedding the xview toolkit it is intended for use with sun s openwindows developers guide builder tool sources are on export mit edu au as uit tar z version was released also of likely use is objectcenter saber c and a reasonable alternative to all of the above is parcplace s formerly solbourne s object interface thanks to douglas s rand dsrand mitre org and george wu gwu tcs com subject where can i obtain alternate language bindings to x versions of the clx lisp bindings are part of the x core source distributions a version of clx is on the r tape version is on export lcs mit edu in contrib clx r tar z the saic ada x bindings are through anonymous ftp in pub from stars rosslyn unisys com there is an x ada study team sponsored by nasa jsc which apparently is working out bindings information xada ghg hou tx us gnu smalltalk has a beta native smalltalk binding to x called stix by steven byrne eng sun com it is still in its beginning stages and documentation is sparse outside the smalltalk code itself the sources are available as pub gnu smalltalk tar z on prep ai mit edu or ugle unit no prolog bindings called xwip written by ted kim at ucla while supported in part by darpa are available by anonymous ftp from export lcs mit edu contrib xwip tar z or ftp cs ucla edu pub xwip tar z these prolog language bindings depend on having a quintus type foreign function interface in your prolog the developer has gotten it to work with quintus and sicstus prolog inquiries should go to xwip cs ucla edu scheme bindings to xlib osf motif and xaw are part of the elk distribution version a on export obsoletes the version on the r contrib tape x scm a bolt on accessory for aubrey jaffer s scm scheme interpreter that provides an interface to xlib motif and openlook is now available via ftp from altdorf ai mit edu archive scm xscm tar z and nexus yorku ca pub scheme new xscm tar z ada bindings to motif explicitly will eventually be made available by the jet propulsion laboratories probably through the normal electronic means advance information can be obtained from dsouleles dsfvax jpl nasa gov who may respond as time permits adamotif is a complete binding to x and motif for the ada language for many common systems it is based in part upon the saic unisys bindings and also includes a uil to ada translator info systems engineering research corporation ada serc well serc apple com also the mit consortium although not involved in producing ada bindings for x maintains a partial listing of people involved in x and ada information is available from donna converse converse expo lcs mit edu subject can xgetwindowattributes get a window s background pixel pixmap no once set the background pixel or pixmap of a window cannot be re read by clients the reason for this is that a client can create a pixmap set it to be the background pixmap of a window and then free the pixmap the window keeps this background but the pixmap itself is destroyed if you re sure a window has a background pixel not a pixmap you can use xcleararea to clear a region to the background color and then use xgetimage to read back that pixel however this action alters the contents of the window and it suffers from race conditions with exposures courtesy dave lemke of ncd and stuart marks of sun note that the same applies to the border pixel pixmap this is a mis feature of the protocol which allows the server is free to manipulate the pixel pixmap however it wants by not requiring the server to keep the original pixel or pixmap some potentially a lot of space can be saved courtesy jim fulton mit x consortium subject how do i create a transparent window a completely transparent window is easy to get use an inputonly window in order to create a window which is mostly transparent you have several choices the shape extension first released with x r offers an easy way to make non rectangular windows so you can set the shape of the window to fit the areas where the window should be nontransparent however not all servers support the extension a machine specific method of implementing transparent windows for particular servers is to use an overlay plane supported by the hardware note that there is no x notion of a transparent color index a generally portable solution is to use a large number of tiny windows but this makes operating on the application as a unit difficult a final answer is to consider whether you really need a transparent window or if you would be satisfied with being able to overlay your application window with information if so you can draw into separate bitplanes in colors that will appear properly thanks to der mouse mouse lightning mcrcim mcgill edu see also the x journal for a more complete answer including code samples for this last option subject why doesn t gxxor produce mathematically correct color values when using gxxor you may expect that drawing with a value of black on a background of black for example should produce white however the drawing operation does not work on rgb values but on colormap indices the color that the resulting colormap index actually points to is undefined and visually random unless you have actually filled it in yourself on many x servers black and white often or programs taking advantage of this mathematical coincidence will break if you want to be combining colors with gxxor then you should be allocating a number of your own color cells and filling them with your chosen pre computed values if you want to use gxxor simply to switch between two colors then you can take the shortcut of setting the background color in the gc graphics context to and the foreground color to a value such that when it draws over red say the result is blue and when it draws over blue the result is red this foreground value is itself the xor of the colormap indices of red and blue thanks to chris flatters cflatter zia aoc nrao edu and ken whaley whaley spectre pa dec com subject why does every color i allocate show up as black make sure you re using bits and not the red green and blue fields of an xcolor structure are scaled so that is nothing and is full blast if you forget to scale using for example for each color the xalloccolor function will perform correctly but the resulting color is usually black thanks to paul asente asente adobe com subject why can t my program get a standard colormap i have an image processing program which uses xgetrgbcolormap to get the standard colormap but it doesn t work xgetrgbcolormap when used with the property xa rgb default map does not create a standard colormap it just returns one if one already exists use xstdcmap or do what it does in order to create the standard colormap first from der mouse mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu subject why does the pixmap i copy to the screen show up as garbage the initial contents of pixmaps are undefined this means that most servers will allocate the memory and leave around whatever happens to be there which is usually garbage you probably want to clear the pixmap first using xfillrectangle with a function of gxcopy and a foreground pixel of whatever color you want as your background or l if you are using the pixmap as a mask courtesy dave lemke of ncd and stuart marks of sun subject how do i check whether a window id is valid my program has the id of a window on a remote display i want to check whether the window exists before doing anything with it because x is asynchronous there isn t a guarantee that the window would still exist between the time that you got the id and the time you sent an event to the window or otherwise manipulated it what you should do is send the event without checking but install an error handler to catch any badwindow errors which would indicate that the window no longer exists this scheme will work except on the rare occasion that the original window has been destroyed and its id reallocated to another window courtesy ken lee klee synoptics com subject can i have two applications draw to the same window yes the x server assigns ids to windows and other resources actually the server assigns some bits the client others and any application that knows the id can manipulate the resource almost any x server resource except for gcs and private color cells can be shared the problem you face is how to disseminate the window id to multiple applications a simple way to handle this and which solves the problem of the applications running on different machines is in the first application to create a specially named property on the root window and put the window id into it the second application then retrieves the property whose name it also knows and then can draw whatever it wants into the window note this scheme works iff there is only one instance of the first application running and the scheme is subject to the limitations mentioned in the question about using window ids on remote displays note also that you will still need to coordinate any higher level cooperation among your applications note also that two processes can share a window but should not try to use the same server connection if one process is a child of the other it should close down the connection to the server and open its own connection mostly courtesy phil karlton karlton wpd sgi com subject why can t my program work with tvtwm or swm a number of applications including xwd xwininfo and xsetroot do not handle the virtual root window which tvtwm and swm use they typically return the wrong child of root a general solution is to add this code or to use it in your own application where you would normally use rootwindow dpy screen function name getvroot description gets the root window even if it s a virtual root arguments the display and the screen returns the root window for the client include x xatom h window getvroot dpy scr display dpy int scr window rootreturn parentreturn children unsigned int numchildren window root rootwindow dpy scr atom swm vroot none int i swm vroot xinternatom dpy swm vroot false xquerytree dpy root rootreturn parentreturn children numchildren for i i numchildren i atom actual type int actual format long nitems bytesafter window newroot null if xgetwindowproperty dpy children i swm vroot false xa window actual type actual format nitems bytesafter unsigned char newroot success newroot root newroot break return root courtesy david elliott dce smsc sony com similar code is in ssetroot a version of xsetroot distributed with tvtwm a header file by andreas stolcke of icsi on export lcs mit edu contrib vroot h functions similarly by providing macros for rootwindow and defaultrootwindow code can include this header file first to run properly in the presence of a virtual desktop subject how do i keep a window from being resized by the user resizing the window is done through the window manager window managers can pay attention to the size hints your application places on the window but there is no guarantee that the window manager will listen you can try setting the minimum and maximum size hints to your target size and hope for the best subject how do i keep a window in the foreground at all times it s rather antisocial for an application to constantly raise itself e g by tracking visibilitynotify events so that it isn t overlapped imagine the conflict between two such programs running the only sure way to have your window appear on the top of the stack is to make the window override redirect this means that you are temporarily assuming window management duties while the window is up so you want to do this infrequently and then only for short periods of time e g for popup menus or other short parameter setting windows thanks to der mouse mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu subject how do i make text and bitmaps blink in x there is no easy way unless you re willing to depend on some sort of extension as yet non existent you have to arrange for the blinking yourself either by redrawing the contents periodically or if possible by playing games with the colormap and changing the color of the contents thanks to mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu der mouse subject how do i get a double click in xlib users of xt have the support of the translation manager to help get notification of double clicking there is no good way to get only a double click in xlib because the protocol does not provide enough support to do double clicks you have to do client side timeouts unless the single click action is such that you can defer actually taking it until you next see an event from the server thus you have to do timeouts which means system dependent code on most unixish implementations you can use xconnectionnumber to get the file descriptor of the x connection and then use select or something similar on that note that many user interface references suggest that a double click be used to extend the action indicated by a single click if this is the case in your interface then you can execute the first action and as a compromise check the timestamp on the second event to determine whether it too should be the single click action or the double click action thanks to mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu der mouse subject how do i render rotated text xlib intentionally does not provide such sophisticated graphics capabilities leaving them up to server extensions or clients side graphics libraries your only choice if you want to stay within the core x protocol is to render the text into a pixmap read it back via xgetimage rotate it by hand with whatever matrices you want and put it back to the server via xputimage more specifically create a bitmap b and write your text to it create an xybitmap image i from b via xgetimage create an xybitmap image i big enough to handle the transformation for each x y in i i x y i a b where a x cos theta y sin theta b x sin theta y cos theta render i note that you should be careful how you implement this not to lose bits an algorithm based on shear transformations may in fact be better the high level server extensions and graphics packages available for x also permit rendering of rotated text display postscript pex phigs and gks although most are not capable of arbitrary rotation and probably do not use the same fonts that would be found on a printer in addition if you have enough access to the server to install a font on it you can create a font which consists of letters rotated at some predefined angle your application can then itself figure out placement of each glyph courtesy der mouse mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu eric taylor etaylor wilkins bmc tmc edu and ken lee klee synoptics com liam quin lee sq com interviews c ui toolkit in the x contrib software has support for rendering rotated fonts in x it could be one source of example code brian r smith brsmith cs umn edu another possibility is to use the hershey fonts they are stroke rendered and can be used by x by converting them into xdrawline requests eric pencom com the xrotfont program by alan richardson mppa syma sussex ac uk posted to comp sources x july paints a rotated font by implementing the method above and by using an outline hershey font the xvertext package by alan richardson mppa syma sussex ac uk is a set of functions to facilitate the writing of text at any angle version was recently released to alt sources and comp sources misc it is also on export as contrib xvertext shar z o reilly s x resource volume includes information from hp about modifications to the x fonts server which provide for rotated and scaled text subject what is the x registry how do i reserve names there are places in the x toolkit in applications and in the x protocol that define and use string names the context is such that conflicts are possible if different components use the same name for different things the mit x consortium maintains a registry of names in these domains orgainization names selection names selection targets resource types application classes and class extension record types and several others the list as of is in the directory mit doc registry on the r tape it is also available by sending send docs registry to the xstuff mail server to register names first come first served or to ask questions send to xregistry expo lcs mit edu be sure to include a postal address for confirmation condensed from asente swick appendix h david b lewis faq craft uunet uu net just the faqs ma am joe friday david b lewis temporarily at but not speaking for visual inc day dbl visual com evening david craft uunet uu net
comp.windows.x	re mouse buttons urgent on apr gmt it ik dmu ac uk i kler said ik nntp posting host elm ik i know it sounds stupid but ik does anyone know how to control individual mouse buttons ik i am writing an application which currently makes use of ik buttonpressmask however this is invoked by the pressing ik of any mouse button i want to be able to restrict this ik to one of the buttons i tried button pressmask but ik just get undefined errors i know it can be done and i ik am pretty sure theres an easy answer to it but i just don t know ik what it is ik time is of the essence there is no event mask for a particular mouse button press however in your event handler you can use the event structure passed in and query it to find which button was pressed i e void someeventhandler widget w xtpointer data xevent event catch the button usually left button if event xbutton button button do some action else do nothing and exit from function guy singh ixi internet guy x co uk vision park uucp guy ixi uucp cambridge bang uunet ixi guy cb zr uk tel
comp.windows.x	re x protocol packet type in article dep slacvm slac stanford edu dep slacvm slac stanford edu writes is there a way to identify an x protocol packet under decnet under tcp ip the information in the packets isn t necessarily distinctive you need to know that it is an x connection ethan
comp.windows.x	re drawing colour pixmaps not rectangular in article mar etrog se citri edu au jck catt citri edu au justin kibell writes i am writing a program which needs to draw colour xpm pixmap files onto a background without having the borders show up i cannot do xor as the colours all stuff up i cannot use xcopyplane as that is for single planes only i want to be able to specify a colour in the pixmap to be used as the opaque colour is this possible games such as xjewel have the same problem how does the mouse pointer do it any help would be helpful you wanna do masking build a bitmap pixmap of depth one where all pixels you name opaque are that get copied and the others are use this bitmap as the clip mask in the gc used for xcopyarea and remember to adjust the clip origin coordinates to the xcopyarea blit origin the mouse pointer besides from that it is driven using ramdac analog mapping on most hardwares uses a mask too but be warned blitting through a mask and especially moving around this mask is annoying slow on most xservers it flickers even at mips o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.windows.x	re pixmaps masks icons clues in article sophia inria fr lehors koala inria fr arnaud le hors writes in article buzz mar lion bear com buzz bear com buzz moschetti writes this is a simple x graphics question assume you have a valid window w an icon pixmap and the background mask also a pixmap for that icon you wish to place the icon at x y in w without the background question what combination of xcopyarea and gc functions are necessary i think the idea is to merge only those pixels of pixmap into w as indicated by the corresponding mask pixel value specifically the problem involves a pixmap and mask generated by the xpm libs any clues would be most appreciated xpm provides you with symbolic color names which can be specified at load time so for doing what you want i would suggest you to define a background symbol in your pixmap file which you ll set to whatever color is used by the widget or the window on which you want to put your pixmap this would surely be the simplest and fastest way to do what you want no as soon as you blit two of this icons once on top of the other with a little dislocation you see the rectangular blit crashes too much of the icon first blitted because it draws a full rectangle the way to do it is masking create a bitmap with all pixels to be merged are and all not to be merged are then set the clip mask of the gc to this bitmap set the clip x origin and clip y origin of the gc to the x y coordinates where you blit the icon to the destination drawable use gxcopy and xcopyarea the icon pixmap to the destination drawable using this gc o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.windows.x	comp windows x frequently asked questions faq archive name x faq part last modified this article and several following contain the answers to some frequently asked questions faq often seen in comp windows x it is posted to help reduce volume in this newsgroup and to provide hard to find information of general interest please redistribute this article this article includes answers to the following questions which are loosely grouped into categories questions marked with a indicate questions new to this issue those with significant changes of content since the last issue are marked by topic basic information sources and definitions what books and articles on x are good for beginners what courses on x and various x toolkits are available what conferences on x are coming up what x related public mailing lists are available how can i meet other x developers what related faqs are available how do i ask a net question so as to maximize helpful responses what publications discussing x are available what are these common abbreviations acronyms what is the icccm how do i write x friendly applications what is the x consortium and how do i join just what are open look and motif just what is openwindows just what is decwindows what is pex what is low bandwidth x lbx xremote ppp slip cslip topic using x in day to day life what are all these different window managers why does my x session exit when i kill my window manager sic can i save the state of my x session like toolplaces does how do i use another window manager with dec s session manager how do i change the keyboard auto repeat rate how do i remap the keys on my keyboard to produce a string how do i make a screendump or print my application how do i make a color postscript screendump of the x display how do i make a screendump including the x cursor how do i convert view mac tiff gif sun pict img fax images in x how can i change the titlebar of my xterm window where can i find the xterm control sequences why does the r xterm et al fail against the r server how can i use characters above ascii in xterm why are my xterm menus so small how can i print the current selection how does xt use environment variables in loading resources how to i have the r xdm put a picture behind the log in window why isn t my path set when xdm runs my xsession file how do i keep my display when i rlogin to another machine how can i design my own font why does adding a font to the server not work sic how do i convert a snf font back to bdf font what is a general method of getting a font in usable format how do i use decwindows fonts on my non decwindows server how do i add bdf fonts to my decwindows server how can i set backgroundpixmap in a defaults file what is xpm why can t i override translations only the first item works how can i have xclock or oclock show different timezones i have xmh but it doesn t work where can i get mh why am i suddenly unable to connect to my sun x server why don t the r pex demos work on my mono screen how do i get my sun type keyboard fully supported by xsun how do i report bugs in x why do i get warning widget class version mismatch where can i find a dictionary server for xwebster topic obtaining x and related software and hardware is x public domain software how compatible are x r r and r what changes are there where can i get x r source and or binaries where can i get patches to x r what is the xstuff mail archive where can i get x r source and binaries where can i get osf motif does motif work with x r x r where can i get toolkits implementing open look where can i get other x sources including r modifications where can i get interesting widgets where can i get a good file selector widget what widget is appropriate to use as a drawing canvas what is the current state of the world in x terminals where can i get an x server with a touchscreen or lightpen where can i get an x server on a pc dos or unix where can i get an x server on a macintosh running macos where can i get x for the amiga where can i get a fast x server for a workstation where can i get a server for my high end sun graphics board where can i get an x terminal server for my low end sun what terminal emulators other than xterm are available where can i get an x based editor or word processor where can i get an x based mailer where can i get an x based paint draw program where can i get an x based plotting program where can i get an x based spreadsheet where can i get x based project management software where can i get an x based postscript previewer where can i get an x based gks package where can i get an x based pex package where can i get an x based tex or dvi previewer where can i get an x based troff previewer where can i get a wysiwyg interface builder where can i find x tools callable from shell scripts where can i get an x based debugger how can i tee an x program identically to several displays topic building the x distribution topic needs updating to r what s a good source of information on configuring the x build why doesn t my sun with a cg work with r why doesn t my sun with sunos know about dlsym etc what is this strange problem building x clients on sunos why can t gcc compile x r on my sparc what are these i o errors running x built with gcc what are these problems compiling x r on the older sun what are these problems compiling the x server on sunos what are these problems using r shared libraries on sunos can olit programs run with r xt xtqstring undefined how do i get around the sunos security hole how do i get around the frame buffer security hole topic building x programs what is imake where can i get imake i have a program with an imakefile but no makefile what to do why can t i link to the xlib shape routines what are these problems with xtinherit not found on the sun why can t i compile my r xaw contrib programs under the new x topic programming problems and puzzles why doesn t my program get the keystrokes i select for sic how do i figure out what window manager is running is there a skeleton x program available why does xtgetvalues not work for me sic why don t xtconfigurewidget xtresizewidget xtmovewidget work why isn t there an xtreparentwidget call like xreparentwindow i m writing a widget and can t use a float as a resource value is this a memory leak in the x r xtdestroywidget are callbacks guaranteed to be called in the order registered why doesn t xtdestroywidget actually destroy the widget how do i query the user synchronously using xt how do i determine the name of an existing widget why do i get a baddrawable error drawing to xtwindow widget why do i get a badmatch error when calling xgetimage how can my application tell if it is being run under x how do i make a busy cursor while my application is computing how do i fork without hanging my parent x program can i make xt or xlib calls from a signal handler what are these xlib sequence lost errors how can my xt program handle socket pipe or file input how do i simulate a button press release event for a widget why doesn t anything appear when i run this simple program what is the difference between a screen and a screen can i use c with x motif xview where can i obtain alternate language bindings to x can xgetwindowattributes get a window s background pixel pixmap how do i create a transparent window why doesn t gxxor produce mathematically correct color values why does every color i allocate show up as black why can t my program get a standard colormap why does the pixmap i copy to the screen show up as garbage how do i check whether a window id is valid can i have two applications draw to the same window why can t my program work with tvtwm or swm how do i keep a window from being resized by the user how do i keep a window in the foreground at all times how do i make text and bitmaps blink in x how do i get a double click in xlib how do i render rotated text what is the x registry how do i reserve names if you have suggestions or corrections for any of these answers or any additional information please send them directly to uunet craft faq the information will be included in the next revision or possibly the one after that thanks for the many suggestions which haven t been incorporated yet this version of the faq is in the process of having r information replaced by r information this posting is intended to be distributed at approximately the beginning of each month new versions are archived on export lcs mit edu and are also available from mail server pit manager mit edu and archive server nic switch ch send help the information contained herein has been gathered from a variety of sources in many cases attribution has been lost if you would like to claim responsibility for a particular item please let me know conventions used below telephone numbers tend to be bell system unless otherwise noted prices on items are not included email addresses are those that work from the us x window system is a trademark of the massachusetts institute of technology other trademarks are the property of their respective owners note a script by george ferguson ferguson cs rochester edu to pretty print this faq is available from ugle unit no pub x contrib xfaq texinfo subject topic basic information sources and definitions subject what books and articles on x are good for beginners ken lee of synoptics klee synoptics com regularly posts to comp windows x and ba windows x a bibliography containing cites of all known reference books and how to manuals and also cites of selected technical articles on x and x programming it is ftp able as export lcs mit edu contrib xbibliography and gatekeeper dec com pub x contrib xbibliography here is an unordered set of the reference books and tutorials most useful for beginners most appear on that list comments are gathered from a variety of places and are unattributable asente paul j and swick ralph r x window system toolkit the complete programmer s guide and specification digital press the bible on xt a treasury of information excellent and invaluable distributed by digital press isbn order number ey e e dp and by prentice hall isbn also available through dec direct at digital the examples are on export lcs mit edu in contrib and on gatekeeper dec com in pub x contrib as asente swick examples tar z they were also posted to comp sources x as xt examples part jones oliver introduction to the x window system prentice hall isbn an excellent introduction to programming with xlib written with the programmer in mind this book includes many practical tips that are not found anywhere else this book is not as broad as the o reilly xlib tutorial but jones is an experienced x programmer and this shows in the quality and depth of the material in the book originally written for x r recent printings have included corrections and additions and current material young doug the x window system applications and programming with xt motif version prentice hall isbn the excellent tutorial x window system programming and applications with xt isbn updated for motif the examples are available on export the ones from the motif version are in ftp contrib young motif tar z young doug and john pew the x window system programming and applications with xt open look edition isbn x the tutorial rewritten for olit with new examples and drag drop information examples are on export in youg olit tar z and in you openwindows distribution in openwinhome share src olit olitbook heller dan motif programmers manual the th volume in the o reilly series covers motif application programming it s full of good examples with motif reference pages isbn the examples are available on uunet in comp sources x and nutshell archives a motif will be out soon scheifler robert and james gettys with jim flowers and david rosenthal x window system the complete reference to xlib x protocol icccm xlfd x version release third edition digital press the bible in its latest revision an enhanced version of x documentation by the authors of the xlib documentation this is the most complete published description of the x programming interface and x protocol it is the primary reference work and is not introductory tutorial documentation additional tutorial works will usually be needed by most new x programmers digital press order ey j e dp isbn nye adrian xlib programming manual volume and xlib reference manual volume o reilly and associates a superset of the mit x documentation the first volume is a tutorial with broad coverage of xlib and the second contains reference pages for xlib functions and many useful reference appendices both cover x r and r isbn volume and isbn volume nye adrian and tim o reilly x toolkit programming manual volume o reilly and associates the folks at o reilly give their comprehensive treatment to programming with the mit intrinsics r versions are now available as is a motif version volume m o reilly tim ed x toolkit reference manual volume o reilly and associates a professional reference manual for the mit x r and x r xt mansfield niall the x window system a user s guide addison wesley a tutorial introduction to using x now upgraded for r isbn quercia valerie and tim o reilly x window system user s guide o reilly and associates a tutorial introduction to using x isbn also available in r and motif flavors mui linda and eric pearce x window system administrator s guide for x r and r ora volume help for x users and administrators isbn prentice hall ordering is o reilly ordering is in addition check the x r and x r core distribution in doc tutorials for some useful papers and tutorials particularly the file answers txt late night s top ten x questions by dave lemke lemke ncd com and stuart marks smarks sun com answers other common questions and some of these here in more detail new r versions of the o reilly references not yet volume are now available a single volume programmer s supplement for r by david flanagan provides an overview of new r features it includes man pages for xlib xt and xmu isbn subject what courses on x and various x toolkits are available advanced computing environments periodically offers at least a two day introduction course contact susie karlson at for information at t offers training in xlib and in the xol set contact at t corporate education training for more info trainer in the usa bim educational services offers training in x administration and in programming with xt motif and open windows the courses are given near brussels info edu sunbim be voice fax communica software consultants offers three day hands on courses in x designed for the x window system developer and programmer contact chris clarkson telephone e mail communica communica oz au cora computer technologies offers several courses ghct offers a one week lecture lab course for programmmers designed by douglas young based on his book the x window system programming and applica tions with xt osf motif edition information brian stell or ghct brian sgi com ghg offers a range of courses on x and motif information or training info ghg hou tx us hands on learning has live training and self paced video workshops on topics such as using and or programming x xlib xm xt and widget writing information hewlett packard hpclass or contact your local hp center offers a day introduction to x a day xlib course a day xt and motif seminar and a day motif lab course integrated computer solutions inc offers several multi day hands on courses on x xt and the xaw and motif widget sets in particular information is available at and info ics com intelligent visual computing teaches several lab courses on site for motif and xview ivc is at or or at info ivc com iris computing laboratories offers five day xlib and xt courses info or info spectro com ixi limited offers regular x training courses for both programmers and non technical managers see also unipalm below learning tree international offers a four day course in x window system applications development including xlib and some information on motif for more info call in canada courses are offered in major north american cities also in london stockholm tokyo and elsewhere lurnix offers day type along courses on xt the course is being ported from xaw to xm information is available at in ca mitch trachtenberg and associates offers regular day lab courses on programming with osf motif usually in but not limited to cambridge ma info info mta com non standard logics requests nsl fr offers courses on programming with xlib motif and creating motif widgets osf educational services offers one day seminars and one week motif lab courses john a pew offers a day course on olit possibly based on his book on that subject sco scol info sco com offers training for its open desktop motif environment in the uk and europe software pundits offers a range of courses technology exchange offers a day xlib xt motif course telesoft is now offering a day plus day seminar on x and motif information bruce sherman bds telesoft com unipalm xtech offers osf s day motif course and a day overview on x information unipalm training at xtech unipalm co uk the university of edinburgh is developing a series of courses on x and related topics primarily for non profit making training in academia but also for commercial use information cliff booth unipalm ltd phone fax various other vendors are also beginning to offer x training usually specific to a proprietary toolkit or to xt and a proprietary widget set dec is offering xlib courses sun offers an xview course various universities are offering short x courses or overviews ucla dartmouth university of lowell university of canberra within australia uc berkeley extension will have a one week x motif class for programmers in san francisco starting on july the class will have a hands on lab for more information contact ucbx at among the best places to find courses are at the various unix conferences uniforum usenix unix expo xhibition the mit x technical conference the acm tutorial weeks c in addition the x consortium posts approximately quarterly a list of unendorsed speakers and consultants who can provide talks on a variety of x topics subject what conferences on x are coming up the xhibition x trade show and conference with tutorials panels presentations and vendor exhibits will be held at the san jose convention center june information xhibit ics com the tcl tk workshop will be held at ucal berkeley june information tcl cs berkeley edu the andrew technical conference and consortium annual meeting will be held june in pittsburgh information wilfred hansen cs cmu edu the european x user group holds an annual conference which typically includes includes paper presentations and a vendor exhibit exug x in the real world and multimedia will be held at the imperial college of science and technology london information exug demon co uk niall uit co uk or p whitehead cc ic ac uk fax the motif show is held in washington to coincide with the fedunix and the federal open systems conference usually december information motif fedunix org or paller fedunix org fax the mit x technical conference is typically held in january in boston registration information is available from registration expo lcs mit edu the xworld conference and exhibition includes tutorials panels presentations and vendor exhibits it is typically held in march in new york city information sigs publication group at other trade shows unixexpo uniforum siggraph show an increasing presence of x including tutorials and exhibits subject what x related public mailing lists are available the xpert mailing list is the general public mailing list on x maintained by the x consortium the mailings are gatewayed so xpert is almost identical to the comp windows x usenet newsgroup if you get comp windows x you don t need to be added to the xpert mailing list otherwise you can join the list to receive x information electronically it is best to find a local distribution perhaps someone within your company is already receiving the mailing as a last resort send mail to xpert request expo lcs mit edu with a valid return electronic address the xannounce mailing list carries major x announcements such as new releases including public patches from mit public reviews adoption of standards by the mit x consortium and conference announcements it does not carry advertisements source code patches or questions if you already receive the usenet news group comp windows x announce or the xpert mailing list you don t need to be added to the xannounce mailing list otherwise to subscribe send a request to xannounce request expo lcs mit edu note only redistribution addresses will be accepted for this list i e no personal addresses if you wish to receive xannounce yourself please contact your mail administrator to set up a local redistribution list and to put you on it comp windows x apps is not gatewayed to a mailing list in addition the x consortium sponsors these public lists bug clx clx bug reports and discussions x ada x and ada x d people interested in x and d graphics ximage people interested in image processing and x xvideo discussion of video extensions for x to subscribe to one of these lists assuming no one in your organization already receives it send mail to list request expo lcs mit edu with the subject line including the name of the list in caps and the request addition request in the body of the message be sure to give an address for your local distribution which is accessible from mit eddie mit edu a mailing list for topics related to open look is sponsored by greg pasquariello of unify corporation send to openlook request unify com or openlook request unify uunet uu net for information a mailing list for bugs in the publicly available version of xview source in particular is sponsored by sun send for information to xviewbug trackers request sun com a mailing list for topics related to motif is sponsored by kee hinckley of alfalfa software inc send to motif request alfalfa com for information this group is gatewayed to comp windows x motif a mailing list for topics related to the xpm pixmap format is sponsored by arnaud le hors of group bull send to xpm talk request sa inria fr for information a mailing list discussing interviews can be subscribed to by sending to interviews request interviews stanford edu a mailing list amiga x nic funet fi for topics related to the port of x to the amiga can be subscribed by sending to mailserver nic funet fi a message containing subject adding myself to amiga x subs amiga x your real name a mailing list discussing parcplace s formerly solbourne s oi object interface toolkit can be subscribed to at oi users requests bbn com a mailing list discussing multi threaded xlib can be subscribed to at mt xlib request xsoft xerox com subject how can i meet other x developers o reilly and associates sponsors a mailing list for the use of x user group organizers subscribe by sending to listserv ora com the message subscribe xgroups your internet address local area x user s groups are listed in issue of o reilly s x resource journal a list may also be available from xug ics com the french x user group is called afux and is based in sophia antipolis by cerics information can be obtained from miss vasseur or miss forest bp rue albert einstein valbonne cedex phone fax the european x user group was formed in to represent x users in europe it holds technical conferences at regular intervals the exug also publishes a regular newsletter which is distributed free of charge to members the exug also runs a email mailing list for members which is frequently used to address issues of european interest in x the exug can be contacted at p whitehead cc ic ac uk fax gxugiv is the german x user s group in vorbereitung in preparation being formed for x programmers and users it is associated with the exug all interested should contact olaf heimburger and at mcvax unido tub olaf subject what related faqs are available liam r e quin lee sq sq com posts a faq on open look to comp windows open look jan newmarch jan pandonia canberra edu au posts a faq on motif to comp windows x motif peter ware ware cis ohio state edu posts a faq for comp windows x intrinsics it is on export in contrib faq xt art mulder art cs ualberta ca posts to comp windows x a faq on maximizing the performance of x steve kotsopoulos steve ecf toronto edu posts to comp windows x a faq about using x on intel based unix systems the faq in alt binaries pictures contains information on viewing images with x and on massaging image formats the faq in comp mail mh gatewayed to mh users ics uci edu includes a section on xmh the faq in comp lang lisp contains information on several interface tools and toolkits there exists a pex phigs faq subject how do i ask a net question so as to maximize helpful responses when asking for help on the net or x mailing lists be sure to include all information about your setup and what you are doing the more specific you are the more likely someone will spot an error in what you are doing without all the details people who want to help you often have to guess if they are able to respond at all always mention what version of x you are using and where you got it from if your server came from a different source as the rest of your x system give details of that too give the machine type operating system and o s version for both the client and server machine it may also be appropriate to mention the window manager compiler and display hardware type you are using then tell exactly what you are doing exactly what happens and what you expected wanted to happen if it is a command that fails include the exact transcript of your session in the message if a program you wrote doesn t work the way you expect include as little of the source necessary just a small test case please for readers to reproduce the problem subject what publications discussing x are available the trade magazines unix world unix review computer language etc are publishing more articles on x two x specific publications include o reilly and associates publishes the x resource a practical journal of the x window system morris st a sebastapol ca editorial information adrian nye adrian ora com the x journal is started bi monthly publication september on a variety of x topics subscription information the x journal subscriber services dept xxx p o box denville nj usa editorial information editors topgun uunet uu net subject what are these common abbreviations acronyms xt the x toolkit intrinsics is a library layered on xlib which provides the functionality from which the widget sets are built an xt based program is an application which uses one of those widget sets and which uses intrinsics mechanisms to manipulate the widgets xmu the xmu library is a collection of miscellaneous utility functions useful in building various applications and widgets xaw the athena widget set is the mit implemented sample widget set distributed with x source xm the osf motif widget set from the open software foundation binary kits are available from many hardware vendors xhp xw the hewlett packard widget set was originally based on r but several sets of patches exist which bring it up to r as it is distributed on the x r tapes supplemental patches are available to use it with r r clx the common lisp x interface is a common lisp equivalent to xlib xdmcp the x display manager protocol provides a uniform mechanism for a display such as an x terminal to request login service from a remote host xlfd the x logical font description conventions describes a standard logical font description and conventions to be used by clients so that they can query and access those resources rtfm common expert speak meaning please locate and consult the relevant documentation read the forgotten manual utsl a common expression meaning take advantage of the fact that you aren t limited by a binary license use the source luke api application programmer interface the function calls etc in a programming library bdf bitmap distribution format a human readable format for uncompiled x fonts gui graphical user interface uil the user interface language part of osf motif which lets programmers specify a widget hierarchy in a simple outline form wcl the widget creation language a package which extends the understanding of the xt resource format such that a widget hierarchy and actions on the widgets can be specified through the resources file gil the file format put out by sun s openwindows developers guide uims user interface management system subject what is the icccm how do i write x friendly applications the inter client communication conventions manual is one of the official x consortium standards documents that define the x environment it describes the conventions that clients must observe to coexist peacefully with other clients sharing the same server if you are writing x clients you need to read and understand the icccm in particular the sections discussing the selection mechanism and the interaction between your client and the window manager get it either as part of the r distribution from mit in the later editions of the scheifler gettys x window system book as an appendix in the new version of o reilly s volume x protocol reference manual a version in old copies of their volume is obsolete the version in the digital press book is much more readable thanks to the efforts of digital press s editors to improve the english and the presentation from david rosenthal the icccm was updated for r updates are published in o reilly s programmer s supplement for release the complete document is on the r tapes alternate definition the icccm is generally the m in rtfm and is the most important of the least read x documents subject what is the x consortium and how do i join the mit x consortium was formed in january of to further the development of the x window system and has as its major goal the promotion of cooperation within the computer industry in the creation of standard software interfaces at all layers in the x window system environment mit s role is to provide the vendor neutral architectural and administrative leadership required to make this work membership in the consortium open to any organization there are two categories of membership member for large organizations and affiliate for smaller organizations most of the consortium s activities take place via electronic mail with meetings when required as designs and specifications take shape interest groups are formed from experts in the participating organizations typically a small multi organization architecture team leads the design with others acting as close observers and reviewers once a complete specification is produced it may be submitted for formal technical review by the consortium as a proposed standard the standards process typically includes public review outside the consortium and a demonstration of proof of concept your involvement in the public review process or as a member or affiliate of the consortium is welcomed write to bob scheifler mit x consortium laboratory for computer science technology square cambridge ma for complete information see the xconsortium man page from the x r distribution from which this information is adapted subject just what are open look and motif open look and motif are two graphical user interfaces guis open look was developed by sun with help from at t and many industry reviewers motif was developed by the open software foundation osf with input from many osf members open look is primarily a user interface specification and style guide there are several toolkits which can be used to produce open look applications motif includes an api specification the only sanctioned motif toolkit is the one from osf however there are other toolkits which can be used to produce programs which look and behave like osf motif one of these parcplace s formerly solbourne s oi is a virtual toolkit which provides objects in the style of open look and motif at the user s choice open look gui is also the name of a product from at t comprising their open look intrinsics toolkit and a variety of applications thanks to ian darwin ian sq com subject just what is openwindows open windows is a sun product that encompasses a window system that combines a news and x compliant server x news a user interface specification open look and a series of toolkits that implement it including the sunview like xview and the xt based olit xlib and xt implementations and a number of utilities olwm window manager filemgr shelltool etc thanks to frank greco fgreco govt shearson com subject just what is decwindows decwindows is a dec product that encompasses an x server the xui toolkit including the dwt widget set and uil xlib and xt implementations a session manager and a number of utilities dxwm window manager dxcalendar dxpsview etc at some point motif flavors of the toolkit and applications will be shipped subject what is pex pex is the phigs extension to x phigs stands for programmer s hierarchical interactive graphics system and is essentially a library of functions that simplifies the creation and manipulation of d graphics many platforms are capable of performing in hardware the computations involved in rendering d objects the extension allows the client phigs in this case to take advantage of the specialized hardware for d graphics sun microsystems is currently contracted to develop a freely redistributable copyright similar to the current x copyright sample implementation source and documentation are available in the r release several vendors are currently selling independently developed pex servers for their workstations and x terminals last modified subject what is low bandwidth x lbx xremote ppp slip cslip there are several options for using x over serial lines slip serial line ip this is both a mechanism and a protocol for sending ip packets over point to point serial links it has been around for several years and implementations are available for many of the major tcp ip implementations most x terminal vendors supply this as a checkoff item although nobody really ever uses it since it is horribly slow the tcp ip headers add bytes per packet and the tcp ip encoding of the x protocol is rather verbose rightfully so it is optimized for packing and unpacking over high speed links cslip compressed header slip this is a variant of slip that compresses the bytes of tcp ip headers down to about or bytes it still doesn t do anything about reencoding the x protocol modems that do compression can help but they increase packet latency it takes time to dribble the uncompressed data through typical serial interfaces plus the compression assembly time ppp point to point protocol this is an emerging standard for point to point links over serial lines that has a more complete set of option negotiation than slip a growing number of people see the combination of ppp for the serial line management and cslip for the header compression as becoming common for running normal tcp ip protocols over serial lines running raw x over the wire still needs compression somewhere to make it usable xremote this is the name of both a protocol and set of products originally developed by ncd for squeezing the x protocol over serial lines in addition to using a low level transport mechanism similar to ppp cslip xremote removes redundancies in the x protocol by sending deltas against previous packets and using lzw to compress the entire data stream this work is done by either a pseudo x server or proxy running on the host or in a terminal server there are several advantages to doing compression outside the modem you don t have to have compressing modems in there if you wouldn t otherwise be using them e g if you were going to be directly connected and it reduces the i o overhead by cutting down on the number of bytes that have to cross the serial interface and in addition to the effects of it reduces the latency in delivering packets by not requiring the modem to buffer up the data waiting for blocks to compress lbx low bandwidth x this is an x consortium project that is working on a standard for this area it is being chaired by ncd and xerox and is using ncd s xremote protocol as a stepping stone in developing the new protocol lbx will go beyond xremote by adding proxy caching of commonly used information e g connection setup data large window properties font metrics keymaps etc and a more efficient encoding of the x protocol the hope is to have a standard ready for public review in the first half of next year and a sample implementation available in r additional technical information about how xremote works and a few notes on how lbx might be different are available via anonymous ftp from export lcs mit edu in contrib in the following files xremote slides ps slides describing xremote xremote lbx diffs ps more slides describing some of lbx information provided by jim fulton jim ncd com there is also a set of slides on export from jim fulton s talk at the th mit x technical conference subject topic using x in day to day life subject what are all these different window managers the window manager in x is just another client it is not part of the x window system although it enjoys special privileges and so there is no single window manager instead there are many which support different ways for the user to interact with windows and different styles of window layout decoration and keyboard and colormap focus in approximate chronological order generally the more recent ones are more conformant with the icccm wm this simple title bar window manager was phased out in r or r uwm the universal window manager is still popular for its speed although it is very outdated moved to contrib on the r tape twm old tom s window manager was among the first non mit window managers and offered the user a great deal of customization options in a re parenting window manager awm the ardent window manager remains a hotbed for hackers and offers some features dynamic menus not found on more current window managers cwm cwm is part of the andrew system rtl siemen s window manager tiles windows so that they don t overlap and resizes the window with the focus to its preferred size dxwm digital s dxwm is part of the decwindows offering hpwm hp s window manager offers a d look it is a precursor of mwm mwm the motif window manager is part of the osf motif toolkit tekwm tektronix s window manager offering olwm sun olwm implements the open look gui and some of the style guide functionality olwm at t ditto gwm bull s generic window manager emulates others with a built in lisp interpreter version h is on the r contrib tape n is on avahi inria fr and export lcs mit edu m swm the sigma window manager is on the r tape pswm sun s postscript based pswm is part of the openwindows release swm solbourne s swm is based on the oi toolkit and offers multiple gui support and also a panned virtual window configuration information comes from the resources file twm new mit s new tab window manager from the r tape is a reworked twm and is the basis for several derivatives including the one on the r tape vtwm vtwm offers some of the virtual desktop features of swm with a single root window implementation it is based on the r twm and is available on archive servers a new version vtwm is based on r and is available from export tvtwm tom s virtual tab window manager is also based on the r twm and provides a virtual desktop modeled on the virtual root window of swm it is available on archive servers olvwm the vtwm style virtual desktop added to sun s olwm it is available on archive servers version is on export mvwm the vtwm style virtual desktop added to osf s mwm a beta version is floating around most recently from suresh unipalm co uk but requires a source license to osf motif ncdwm the window manager local to ncd terminals offers an mwm look xdswm the window manager local to visual technology s terminals ctwm claude lecommandeur s lecom sic epfl ch modification of the r twm offers virtual screens in the fashion of hp vuewm source is on export version also offers the window overview used in vtwm and tvtwm vuewm hp s mwm based window manager offers configurable workspaces dwm sgi s enhanced mwm piewm this version of tvtwm offers pie menus subject why does my x session exit when i kill my window manager sic it needn t what is probably happening is that you are running your window manager as the last job in your xsession or xinitrc file your x session runs only as long as the last job is running and so killing your window manager is equivalent to logging out instead run the window manager in the background and as the last job instead invoke something safe like exec xterm name login rv iconic or any special client of your devising which exits on some user action your x session will continue until you explicitly logout of this window whether or not you kill or restart your window manager subject can i save the state of my x session like toolplaces does although no known window manager directly supports such a feature which may be equivalent to writing out a xinitrc or xsession file naming the geometry and wm command of each application but olvwm may have something close there is a contributed application which does much of what you are looking for although it is not as complete as the sunview program toolplaces look for the application xplaces on an archive server near you there are several versions of this program floating around look for a recent vintage some new pseudo session managers such as hp s vuewm provide for the saving of sessions including information on the geometry of currently running applications and the resource database bjxrn stabell bjoerns staff cs uit no subject how do i use another window manager with dec s session manager dec s session manager will start dxwm up by default to override this add to your xdefaults file something like this line naming the full pathname sm windowmanagername wherever usr bin x your favorite wm subject how do i change the keyboard auto repeat rate you can turn auto repeat on or off by using xset r on off the x protocol however doesn t provide for varying the auto repeat rate which is a capability not supported by all systems some servers running on systems that support this however may provide command line flags to set the rate at start up time if you have control over server start up see the man pages for xinit and xdm you can invoke the server with the chosen settings for example you can start the xsun server from mit with the options ar ar to reduce the sensitivity of the keyboard subject how do i remap the keys on my keyboard to produce a string there is no method of arranging for a particular string to be produced when you press a particular key the xmodmap client which is useful for moving your ctrl and esc keys to useful places just rearranges keys and does not do macro expansion some few clients including xterm and several x based editors accept a translation resource such as xterm vt translations override key f string setenv display unix which permits the shorthand f to be pressed to reset the display locally within an xterm it takes effect for new xterm clients to include control characters in the string use nnn where nnn is the octal encoding of the control character you want to include window managers which could provide this facility do not yet nor has a special remapper client been made available david b lewis faq craft uunet uu net just the faqs ma am joe friday david b lewis temporarily at but not speaking for visual inc day dbl visual com evening david craft uunet uu net
comp.windows.x	comp windows x frequently asked questions faq archive name x faq part last modified subject how do i make a screendump or print my application the xwd client in the x distributions can be used to select a window or the background it produces an xwd format file of the image of that window the file can be post processed into something useful or printed with the xpr client and your local printing mechanism you can use this command csh sleep xwd root output xwd and then spend seconds or so setting up your screen the entire current display will be saved into the file output xwd note that xwd also has an undocumented before r id flag for specifying the window id on the command line there are also unofficial patches on export to xwd for specifying the delay and the portion of the screen to capture two publicly available programs which allow interactive definition of arbitrary portions of the display and built in delays are asnap and xgrabsc there are several versions of xgrabsc version available on export is the most recent xsnap includes some asnap features and supersedes it it also renders xpm output version unknown it is available on export or avahi inria fr see xsnap pl tar z a screen dump and merge edit program combining features of xwd and xpr is available from vernam cs uwm edu as xdump tar z information soft eng cs uwm edu xprint by alberto accomazzi alberto cfa harvard edu is available from cfa in xprint export tar z to post process the xwd output of some of these tools you can use xpr which is part of the x distribution also on several archives are xwd ps and xtops which produce encapsulated postscript with trimmings suitable for use in presentations see export lcs mit edu contrib xwd ps tar z and contrib imagemagick tar z also useful is the pbmplus package on many archive servers and the xim package contains level color postscript output the xv program can grab a portion of the x display manipulate it and save it in one of the available formats imagemagick has similar capabilities also bristol technology info bristol com offers xprinter an xlib api for postscript and pcl printers a demo is on ftp uu net in vendor bristol xprinter colorsoft offers openprint package includes a screen capture facility image processing and support for postscript and non postscript printers some vendors implementations of x e g decwindows and openwindows include session managers or other desktop programs which include print portion of screen or take a snapshot options some platforms also have tools which can be used to grab the frame buffer directly the sun systems for example have a screendump program which produces a sun raster file some x terminals have local screen dump utilities to write postscript to a local serial printer some vendors implementations of lpr e g sony include direct support for printing xwd files but you ll typically need some other package to massage the output into a useful format which you can get to the printer subject how do i make a color postscript screendump of the x display if you need color postscript in particular you can grab the screen image using a program which can produce color postscript such as xgrabsc and xv grab the screen image using xwd and post process xwd into color ps you can do this using xwd ps or the xtops program from the imagemagick distribution the pbmplus package is also good for this as is the xim package subject how do i make a screendump including the x cursor this can t be done unless the x server has been extended consider instead a system dependent mechanism for e g capturing the frame buffer subject how do i convert view mac tiff gif sun pict img fax images in x the likeliest program is an incarnation of jef poskanzer s useful portable bitmap toolkit which includes a number of programs for converting among various image formats it includes support for many types of bitmaps gray scale images and full color images pbmplus has been updated recently the most recent version is on export in contrib pbmplus dec tar z another tool is san diego supercomputing center s imtools imconv in particular which packages the functionality of pbm into a single binary it s available anonymous ftp from sdsc edu useful for viewing some image formats is jim frost s xloadimage a version of which is in the r directory contrib clients xloadimage there are later versions available including contrib xloadimage tar z on export graeme gill s updates to an earlier version of xloadimage are also on export see xli readme and xli tar z uu version was released xv x image viewer written by bradley cis upenn edu john bradley can read and display pictures in sun raster pgm pbm ppm x bitmap tiff gif and jpeg it can manipulate on the images adjust color intensity contrast aspect ratio crop it can save images in all of the aforementioned formats plus postscript it can grab a portion of the x display manipulate on it and save it in one of the available formats the program was updated see the file contrib xv tar z on export lcs mit edu the fuzzy pixmap manipulation by michael mauldin mlm nl cs cmu edu conversion and manipulation package similar to pbmplus version available via ftp as nl cs cmu edu usr mlm ftp fbm tar z uunet uu net pub fbm tar z and ucsd edu graphics fbm tar z the img software set by paul raveling raveling venera isi edu reads and writes its own image format displays on an x screen and does some image manipulations version is available via ftp on expo lcs mit edu as contrib img tar z along with large collection of color images the utah rle toolkit is a conversion and manipulation package similar to pbmplus available via ftp as cs utah edu pub urt weedeater math yale edu pub urt and freebie engin umich edu pub urt xim the x image manipulator by philip thompson does essential interactive displaying editing filtering and converting of images there is a version in the x r contrib area but a more recent version using r and motif is available from gis mit edu xim reads writes gif xwd xbm tiff rle xim writes level eps and other formats and also has a library and command line utilities for building your own applications imagemagick by cristy dupont com can be retrieved from export s contrib area it is a collection of utilities to transform and display images on any x server the tool uses the miff format filters to and from miff from other popular formats ppm tiff gif sun raster etc are included xtiff is a tool for viewing a tiff file in an x window it was written to handle as many different kinds of tiff files as possible while remaining simple portable and efficient xtiff illustrates some common problems with building pixmaps and using different visual classes it is distributed as part of sam leffler s libtiff package and it is also available on export lcs mit edu uunet uu net and comp sources x dbs decwrl dec com xtiff was announced in it includes xlib and xt versions a version of lee iverson s leei mcrcim mcgill edu image viewing tool is available as contrib vimage tar z on export lcs mit edu the package also includes an imageviewport widget and a filedialog widget some material from larry carroll larryc poe jpl nasa gov subject how can i change the titlebar of my xterm window the solution involves sending an escape sequence to xterm which will cause it to update the property which the window manager relies upon for the string which appears in the window titlebar a solution is as easy as typing this in an xterm running a shell echo esc text g where esc is the escape key text is the string you wish to have displayed and g is a control g the bel character here is a more complicated csh alias which changes the titlebar to the current working directory when you change directories alias newcd cd echo n esc cwd g the digit in these strings indicates to xterm that it should change only the title of the window to change both the title and the name used in the icon use the digit instead and use to change only the icon name note another way to do this which prevents an incorrect display of the local directory if a modified cd is used in a subshell is to wrap the escape sequences into the ps prompt itself note on an ibm rs is may be necessary to begin the sequence with a v subject where can i find the xterm control sequences the best source of such information is in your r sources in the file ctlseqs ms a postscript version is in mit hardcopy clients ctlseqs ps z o reilly s volume the x user s guide includes an r version of the control sequences the standard volume will be available and a motif version of the book is available now the current r guide includes an outdated version of the control sequences other good sources of information include the r version of that document and also the file in the r sources called mit clients xterm ctlseq txt a compilation put together by skip montanaro ge cr d listing the vt sequences it dates from r but is fairly accurate a hardcopy version was published in the december xnextevent the xug newsletter in a pinch a vt manual will do last updated subject why does the r xterm et al fail against the r server subject how can i use characters above ascii in xterm in order to use special characters such as the o umlaut you need to stty pass but also to use a charcell iso font such as xterm font medium r normal c iso xterm boldfont bold r normal c iso the family is intentionally unspecified in this example in addition you may want to set this in your shell setenv lc ctype iso for a given character above you can determine the key to use with the alt modifier by finding the equivalent character below try using man ascii for example o umlaut v is alt v and the section character is alt thanks to greg holmberg greg thirdi uunet uu net and stephen gildea gildea expo lcs mit edu subject why are my xterm menus so small you are probably setting the geometry small accidentally if you give a resource specification like this xterm geometry x then you are asking for all widgets under xterm to have their geometry set to x for the main window this is ok as it uses characters for its size but its popup menus don t they are in pixels and show up small to set only the terminal widget to have the specified geometry name it explicitly xterm vt geometry x subject how can i print the current selection you could paste it into an xterm after executing the lpr command however a program by richard hesketh rlh ukc ac uk specifically for manipulating the selection will help e g xselection primary lpr finds the primary selection and prints it this command can be placed in a window manager menu or in shell scripts xselection also permits the setting of the selection and other properties a version is on export also available is ria ccs uwo ca pub xget selection tar z which can be adapted to do this subject how does xt use environment variables in loading resources you can use several environment variables to control how resources are loaded for your xt based programs xfilesearchpath xuserfilesearchpath and xapplresdir these environment variables control where xt looks for application defaults files as an application is initializing xt loads at most one app defaults file from the path defined in xfilesearchpath and another from the path defined in xuserfilesearchpath set xfilesearchpath if software is installed on your system in such a way that app defaults files appear in several different directory hierarchies suppose for example that you are running sun s open windows and you also have some r x applications installed in usr lib x app defaults you could set a value like this for xfilesearchpath and it would cause xt to look up app defaults files in both usr lib x and usr openwin lib or wherever your openwinhome is located setenv xfilesearchpath usr lib x t n openwinhome lib t n the value of this environment variable is a colon separated list of pathnames the pathnames contain replacement characters as follows see xtresolvepathname n the value of the filename parameter or the application s class name t the value of the file type in this case the literal string app defaults c customization resource r only s suffix none for app defaults l language locale and codeset e g ja jp euc l language part of l e g ja t the territory part of the display s language string c the codeset part of the display s language string let s take apart the example suppose the application s class name is myterm also suppose open windows is installed in usr openwin notice the example omits locale specific lookup usr lib x t n means usr lib x app defaults myterm openwinhome lib t n means usr openwin lib app defaults myterm as the application initializes xt tries to open both of the above app defaults files in the order shown as soon as it finds one it reads it and uses it and stops looking for others the effect of this path is to search first in usr lib x then in usr openwin let s consider another example this time let s set xuserfilesearchpath so it looks for the file myterm ad in the current working directory then for myterm in the directory app defaults setenv xuserfilesearchpath n ad home app defaults n the first path in the list expands to myterm ad the second expands to home app defaults myterm this is a convenient setting for debugging because it follows the imake convention of naming the app defaults file myterm ad in the application s source directory so you can run the application from the directory in which you are working and still have the resources loaded properly note when looking for app default files with xuserfilesearchpath for some bizarre reason neither the type nor file suffix is defined so t and s are useless with r there s another twist you may specify a customization resource value for example you might run the myterm application like this myterm xrm customization color if one of your pathname specifications had the value usr lib x t n c then the expanded pathname would be usr lib x app defaults myterm color because the c substitution character takes on the value of the customization resource the default xfilesearchpath compiled into xt is usr lib x l t n c r usr lib x l t n c r usr lib x t n c r usr lib x l t n usr lib x l t n usr lib x t n note some sites replace usr lib x with a projectroot in this batch of default settings the default xuserfilesearchpath also compiled into xt is root l n c r root l n c r root n c r root l n root l n root n root is either the value of xapplresdir or the user s home directory if xapplresdir is not set if you set xuserfilesearchpath to some value other than the default xt ignores xapplresdir altogether notice that the quick and dirty way of making your application find your app defaults file in your current working directory is to set xapplresdir to a single dot in r all this machinery worked differently for r compatibilty many people set their xapplresdir value to a dot followed by a slash thanks to oliver jones oj world std com subject how to i have the r xdm put a picture behind the log in window the answer lies in changing xdm s xrdb resource in the xdm config file to run a program to change the background before loading the resources for example your usr lib x xdm xdm config file may add the line displaymanager authorize false to permit unrestricted access to the display before log in beware and also displaymanager xrdb usr lib x xdm new xrdb where that file does something for all connections along the lines of bin sh comes in with arguments display load usr lib x xdm xresources usr bin x xsetroot display bitmap usr lib x xdm new bitmap usr bin x xrdb substitute xloadimage or xv for xsetroot to taste note that this is a general hack that can be used to invoke a console window or any other client thanks to jay bourland jayb cauchy stanford edu subject why isn t my path set when xdm runs my xsession file when xdm runs your xsession it doesn t source your cshrc or login files you can set the path explicitly as you normally could for any sh script or you can place all environment setting statements in a separate file and source it from both the xsession file and your shell configuration file or if you set your path in your cshrc file the normal place you can make your xsession have path set simply by making it a csh script i e by starting your xsession file off with bin csh if this doesn t work also try starting off with bin sh reset path path csh c echo path export path subject how do i keep my display when i rlogin to another machine there are several ways to avoid having to do a setenv display whenever you log in to another networked unix machine running x one solution is to use the clients xrsh on the r contrib tape it includes xrsh a script to start an x application on remote machine and xrlogin a script to start a local xterm running rlogin to a remote machine a more recent version is on export in xrsh shar one solution is to use the xrlogin program from der mouse mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu you can ftp caveat emptor versions from in x xrlogin c and x xrlogind c the program packages up term and display into a single string which is stuffed into term rlogin then propagates term normally your cshrc on the remote machine should contain eval xrlogind where xrlogind is a program that checks term and if it is of the special format it recognizes unpacks it and spits out setenv and unsetenv commands to recreate the environment variables in addition if all you need to do is start a remote x process on another host and you find rsh host n usr bin x xterm display display too simple display must have your real hostname then this version of xrsh can be used to start up remote x processes the equivalent usage would be xrsh host xterm bin sh start an x process on another host date dec gmt from chris torek chris mimsy umd edu rsh host n setenv display display exec dev null dev null an improved version rxcmd suggested by john robinson jr bbn com generalized for sh ksh by keith boyer keith cis ohio state edu but they put the rcmd in s which left zombies again this script combines the best of both case in echo usage host x cmd args case shell in csh host shift xhost host dev null rsh host n setenv term xterm setenv display hostname exec dev null dev null sh host shift xhost host dev null rsh host n term xterm export term display hostname export display ld library path usr x lib export ld library path path path usr x bin usr bin x usr local bin export path exec dev null dev null esac esac subject how can i design my own font one way is to use the bitmap client or some other bitmap editor e g sun s icon editor tool post processed with pbmplus to design the individual characters and then to do some large amount of post processing to concatenate them into the bdf format see ollie jones s article in the november x journal for more information the r contrib area in fonts utils and in clients xtroff contained a number of useful utilities including some to convert between bdf font format and a simple character format which can be edited with any text editor an easier way is to use the xfed client to modify an existing font a version is on the r or r x r contrib tape in contrib clients xfed xfed is available for anonymous ftp on ftp informatik uni dortmund de possibly as file pub windows x diverse x sourcen xfed tar z it can produce bdf format fonts which can be compiled for a variety of x servers the xfedor client from group bull permits creation of bitmaps cursors xpm pixmaps and fonts binaries for common machines are on avahi inria fr in pub in addition the sources an old xlib implementation have been placed in export contrib if you are a metafont user you can use mftobdf from the seetex distribution to convert pk gf and pxl fonts to bdf format the distribution is on ftp cs colorado edu and on export lcs mit edu the gnu package fontutils tar z on prep ai mit edu includes xbfe a font editor and a number of utilities for massaging font formats the o reilly x resource issue contains an article on using these tools to modify a font fonts can be resized with hiroto kagotani s bdfresize a new version is in ftp cs titech ac jp x contrib subject why does adding a font to the server not work sic after you have built the font using your system s font compiler installed it in some directory and run mkfontdir or your system s equivalent e g bldfamily for openwindows in that directory be sure to use xset fp dir to add that full path name to the server s font path or if the directory is already in the path use xset fp rehash so that the new fonts in that directory are actually found it is this last step that you re probably leaving out you can also use xset q to make sure that that directory is in the path sometimes your xset fp dir command fails with a badvalue error x error of failed request badvalue integer parameter out of range for operation major opcode of failed request x setfontpath this means the x server cannot find or read your font directory or that your directory does not look like a font directory to the server the mention of an integer parameter in the message is spurious is the font directory you re specifying readable from the server s file system remember it s the server not the client which interprets your font directory trouble in this area is especially likely when you issue an xset command with shell metacharacters in it e g xset fp myfonts and the server is an x terminal or managed by xdm is the directory really a font directory if you re running an mit server or most varieties of vendor servers look in the directory for the file fonts dir if you can t find that file run mkfontdir if you re running openwindows look for the file families list if you can t find it run bldfamily if you re in a site where some people run x rn servers and others run a proprietary server with nonstandard font formats openwindows for example make sure the font directory is right for the server you re using hint if the directory contains pcf and or snf files it won t work for open windows if the directory contains ff and or fb files it won t work for x rn thanks to der mouse mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu and to oliver jones oj pictel com subject how do i convert a snf font back to bdf font a tool called snftobdf is part of the bdftools package which is available from export lcs mit edu contrib bdftools tar z and from crl nmsu edu pub misc bdftools tar z subject what is a general method of getting a font in usable format der mouse s getbdf is one solution it connects to a server and produces a bdf file for any font the server is willing to let it it can be used as an anything to bdf converter but requires access to a server that can understand the font file thus is both more and less powerful than other tools such as snftobdf getbdf is on in x getbdf c or available via mail from mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu in addition the r program fstobdf can produce bdf for any font that the r server has access to subject how do i use decwindows fonts on my non decwindows server the decwindows fonts typically don t exist on a non dec installation but rewrite rules can be used to alias fonts used by decwindows applications to standard mit fonts of similar characteristics and size pick up the file contrib decwindows on x r font aliases from export lcs mit edu this file is for a standard mit r server it can also serve as a starting point for creating a similar aliases file for the open windows server or other servers which do not use the mit font scheme subject how do i add bdf fonts to my decwindows server the format of fonts preferred by dec s x server is the pcf format you can produce this compiled format from the bdf format by using dec s dxfc font compiler note that the dec servers can also use raw bdf fonts with a performance hit subject how can i set backgroundpixmap in a defaults file what is xpm i want to be able to do something like this xclock backgroundpixmap usr include x bitmaps rootweave you can t do this the backgroundpixmap resource is a pixmap of the same depth as the screen not a bitmap which is a pixmap of depth because of this writing a generic string to pixmap converter is impossible since there is no accepted convention for a file format for pixmaps therefore neither the x toolkit or the athena widget set define a string to pixmap converter because there is no converter you cannot specify this value as a resource the athena widget set does define a string to bitmap converter for use in many of its widgets however courtesy chris d peterson now kit ics com however a specific converter which encapsulates much of the functionality of the xloadimage package by jim frost was posted by sebastian wangnick basti unido informatik uni dortmund de it permits loading of a number of image formats as a pixmap the leading general purpose format for pixmaps is the xpm format used by groupe bull in several of its programs including the gwm window manager by at t in its olpixmap editor and by ics in its interface builder xpm distribution available on export as contrib xpm tar z includes read write routines which can easily be adapted to converters by new widgets which want to allow specification of pixmap resources in the above manner see information on the xpm talk mailing list above xpm f was announced in and is available from export lcs mit edu and avahi inria fr an older version is on the r contrib tape a set of xpm icons collected by anthony thyssen anthony kurango cit gu edu au is on export in contrib aicons subject why can t i override translations only the first item works you probably have an extra space after the specification of the first item like this basic text translations override ctrl key a beginning of line n ctrl key e end of line extra space the newline after that space is ending the translation definition thanks to timothy j horton subject how can i have xclock or oclock show different timezones one solution is xchron in volume of comp sources x which can show the time for timezones other than the local one alternatively you can probably set the timezone in the shell from which you invoke the xclock or oclock or use a script similar to this bin sh tz pst pdt xclock name san luis obispo ca dev null tz est edt xclock name king of prussia pa dev null subject i have xmh but it doesn t work where can i get mh the xmh mail reader requires the rand mh mail message handling system which is not part of the unix software distribution for many machines a list of various ftp uucp e mail and us mail sites for both xmh and mh is given in the monthly mh faq one source is ics uci edu in the file pub mh mh tar z if you do not receive the comp mail mh newsgroup or the mh users mailing list you can request a copy of the faq which also includes a section on xmh by sending mail to mail server pit manager mit edu containing the request send usenet news answers mh faq subject why am i suddenly unable to connect to my sun x server after a seemingly random amount of time after the x server has been started no other clients are able to connect to it the default cron cleanup jobs supplied by sun for at least delete old unreferenced files from tmp including tmp x unix which contains the socket descriptor used by x the solution is to add type s to the find exclusion in the cron job subject why don t the r pex demos work on my mono screen the r sample server implementation works only on color screens sorry subject how do i get my sun type keyboard fully supported by xsun many users wants the num lock key to light the num lock led and have the appropriate effect on the numeric keypad the xsun server as distributed by mit doesn t do this but there are two different patches available the first patch is written by jonathan lemon and fixes the num lock related problems it is available from export lcs mit edu in the file contrib xsun r numlock patch z the second is written by martin forssen and fixes the num lock and compose keys and adds support for the different national keyboard layouts for type and type keyboards this patch is available from export lcs mit edu in contrib sunkbd tar z or via email from maf dtek chalmers se thanks to martin forssen maf dtek chalmers se or maf math chalmers se a set of patches by william bailey dbgwab arco com was posted to newsgroups to provide support for the type keyboard subject how do i report bugs in x generally report bugs you find to the organization that supplied you with the x window system if you received the r source distribution directly from mit please read the file mit bug report for instructions look in mit doc bugs bug report in r thanks to stephen gildea gildea expo lcs mit edu subject why do i get warning widget class version mismatch this error which typically goes on to say widget vs intrinsics indicates that the header files you included when building your program didn t match the header files that the xt library you re linking against was built with check your i include path and l link path to be sure however the problem also occurs when linking against a version of the x r xt library before patch the version number was wrong some sun ow systems in particular were shipped with the flawed version of the library and applications which link against the library typically give the warnings you have seen subject where can i find a dictionary server for xwebster webster s still owns the copyright to the on line copies of webster s dictionary which are found at various university sites after it became aware that these sites were then acting as servers for other sites running xwebster and gnuemacs webster it asked that server sites close off external access the next machine apparently is also licensed to have the dictionary a webster daemon for next machines is available from iuvax cs indiana edu in pub webster next unless you want to get a legal on line copy yourself or can find a site which can grant you access you are probably out of luck however if you are a legitimate site you ll want to pick up the latest xwebster as is on export contrib xwebster tar z the file xwebster readme includes discussions of the availability illegality and non availability of dictionary servers courtesy steve umiacs umd edu steve miller and mayer hplabs hp com niels mayer subject topic obtaining x and related software and hardware subject is x public domain software no the x software is copyrighted by various institutions and is not public domain which has a specific legal meaning however the x distribution is available for free and can be redistributed without fee contributed software though may be placed in the public domain by individual authors subject how compatible are x r r and r what changes are there the release notes for each mit release of x specify the changes from the previous release the x consortium tries very hard to maintain compatibility across releases in the few places where incompatible changes were necessary details are given in the release notes each x distribution site on the network also offers the release notes that go with the release they offer the file typically can be found at the top of the distribution tree stephen gildea the comp windows x intrinsics faq xt lists xt differences among these versions subject where can i get x r source and or binaries information about mit s distribution of the sources on bpi and qic tape and its distribution of hardcopy of the documents is available from software center technology licensing office massachusetts institute of technology carleton street room e cambridge ma phone you will need about mb of disk space to hold all of core and mb to hold the contrib software donated by individuals and companies please use a site that is close to you in the network note that the release notes are generally available separately in the same directory the notes list changes from previous versions of x and offer a guide to the distribution north america anonymous ftp california gatekeeper dec com pub x r california soda berkeley edu pub x r indiana mordred cs purdue edu pub x r maryland ftp brl mil pub x r good for milnet sites massachusetts crl dec com pub x r massachusetts export lcs mit edu pub r crl dec com is better michigan merit edu pub x r missouri wuarchive wustl edu packages x r montana ftp cs montana edu pub x v r new mexico pprg eece unm edu pub dist x r new york azure acsu buffalo edu pub x r north carolina cs duke edu dist sources x r ohio ftp cis ohio state edu pub x v r ontario ftp cs utoronto ca pub x r washington dc x r a uu net x r washington dc x r b uu net x r europe middle east australia anonymous ftp australia munnari oz au x v r denmark freja diku dk pub x r united kingdom src doc ic ac uk graphics x v r hpb mcc ac uk pub x r finland nic funet fi pub x r france nuri inria fr x x r germany ftp germany eu net pub x x r israel cs huji ac il pub x r italy ghost sm dsi unimi it pub x r netherlands archive eu net windows x r norway ugle unit no pub x r norway nac no pub x r switzerland nic switch ch software x r japan anonymous ftp kanagawa sh wide ad jp x r kwansai ftp ics osaka u ac jp x r kyushu wnoc fuk wide ad jp x r tisn utsun s u tokyo ac jp x r tokyo kerr iwanami co jp x r tokyo scslwide sony co jp pub x r uucp uunet for uunet customers x r decwrl existing neighbors only pub x r osu cis x v r not online until sept utai existing neighbors only ftp pub x r hp nl netherlands only uucp pub windows x r nfs missouri wuarchive wustl edu archive packages x r mount point archive afs pennsylvania afs grand central org pub x r niftp hhcp cpf fcp united kingdom uk ac ic doc src x v r user guest anon ftam united kingdom janet x v r internet ixi acsnet australia munnari oz fetchfile x v r please fetch only one file at a time after checking that a copy is not available at a closer site updated for contrib anyone in europe can get a copy of the mit x v r distribution including the core and contributed software and all official patches free of charge the only requirement is to agree to return the tapes or equivalent new tapes only qic and tk format cartridges can be provided contact jamie watson adasoft ag nesslerenweg wabern switzerland tel or fax jw adasoft ch uk sites can obtain x through the ukuug software distribution service from the department of computing imperial college london in several tape formats you may also obtain the source via janet and therefore pss using niftp host uk ac ic doc src name guest password your email address queries should be directed to lee mcloughlin or to info server doc ic ac uk or ukuug soft uk ac ic doc send a subject line of wanted also offered are copies of comp sources x the export lcs mit edu contrib and doc areas and most other announced freely distributable packages x r and x r source along with x r contrib code prebuilt x binaries for major platforms and source code examples from o reilly s books is available on an iso format cd rom from o reilly associates as of x r source is available on iso format cd rom for members of the japan unix society from hiroaki obata obata jrd dec com x r source along with gnu source the comp sources x archives and sparc binaries is available on an iso format cd rom from pdq software or robert a bruce rab sprite berkeley edu x r source is available from automata design associates various users groups e g sug offer x sources cheaply typically on cd rom source for the andrew user interface system and binaries for common systems are available on cd rom information info andrew requests andrew cmu edu fax binaries for x r with shared libx and libxmu for a ux are now available from wuarchive wustl edu archive systems aux x r patches for x r compiled with gcc but not shared libraries are also available john l coolidge coolidge cs uiuc edu binaries by rich kaul kaul ee eng ohio state edu for the sun i running sunos are available on dsinc dsi com please only after hours usa est binaries for the sun i are available from compaq com in pub sun i sources and from vernam cs uwm edu a binary tree for the next by douglas scott doug foxtrot ccmrc ucsb edu is on foxtrot ccmrc ucsb edu it is missing the server though binaries for the sun i are in vernam cs uwm edu sun i binaries for the hp pa are on hpcvaaz cv hp com source and binaries for hp ux s and domain k dn k are available through the interworks users group contact carol relph at fax or relph c apollo hp com patches to x r for solaris by casper h s dik casper fwi uva nl et al are on export in contrib r sunos patch tar z r sunos patch readme patches to x r for the sun type keyboard and the keyboard numlock are available from william bailey dbgwab arco com also binaries are available from unipalm xtech unipalm co uk probably for the sun platforms david b lewis faq craft uunet uu net just the faqs ma am joe friday david b lewis temporarily at but not speaking for visual inc day dbl visual com evening david craft uunet uu net
comp.windows.x	pointer cursor hi i am trying to implement a pointer feature in xlib i have multiple windows and all can take input and show output simultaneously on all other displays i want to implement a pointer feature i would like to get the pointer to come up on all windows once i choose pointer in the menu and every one should be able to see it can you give me some hints as to how i should proceed i am new to xlib replies will be greatly appreciated thank you prakash duvvuri cs odu edu
comp.windows.x	lost in tekhvc color space please respond via email has anybody actually seen the tek color space stuff working i m not having any luck with either the xtici editor from export lcs mit edu or with o reilly s ftp able example xcms from ftp uu net the o reilly example fails for almost every set of inputs because xcmstekhvcquerymaxv returns a smaller value than xcmstekhvcqueryminv does which makes no sense to me the xtici editor fails in xcmsstorecolors apparently because the mathematical manipulations of the color specs results in invalid values so you can t actually edit any colors we have x r patch level bit pseudocolor visual i ve poked around in the xcms code in xlib but without some understanding of the theory i have no idea what s going wrong can somebody confirm if either of the above mentioned programs work on their systems or let me know if they fail for you too please include what hardware software patch levels you have any hints please respond with email as i don t regularly read this group thanks karen karen bircsak concurrent computer corporation karenb westford ccur com
comp.windows.x	comp windows x frequently asked questions faq archive name x faq part last modified subject where can i get patches to x r the release of new public patches by the mit x consortium is announced in the comp windows x announce newsgroup patches themselves are available via ftp from export and from other sites from which x is available they are now also distributed through the newsgroup comp sources x some source re sellers may be including patches in their source distributions of x people without ftp access can use the xstuff mail server it now has patches for x r send to xstuff expo lcs mit edu the subject line send fixes where is the name of the patch and is usually just the number of the patch here are a few complications fix is in four parts you need to request a b c and d separately the file sungx uu which was part of an earlier patch was re released with patch note the file doesn t work with solaris fix is in two parts a and b fix is in three parts a b and c fix is in two parts a and b fix replaces the r fix test for the x test suite which previously was optional fix also needs pexlib tar z which you can obtain from xstuff by asking for pexlib uu fix is in parts a through i subject what is the xstuff mail archive the xstuff server is a mail response program that means that you mail it a request and it mails back the response any of the four possible commands must be the first word on a line the xstuff server reads your entire message before it does anything so you can have several different commands in a single message unless you ask for help the xstuff server treats the subject header line just like any other line of the message the archives are organized into a series of directories and subdirectories each directory has an index and each subdirectory has an index the top level index gives you an overview of what is in the subdirectories and the index for each subdirectory tells you what is in it the command help or send help causes the server to send you a more detailed version of this help file if your message contains a line whose first word is index then the server will send you the top level index of the contents of the archive if there are other words on that line that match the name of subdirectories then the indexes for those subdirectories are sent instead of the top level index for example you can say send index fixes or index fixes a message that requests an index cannot request data if your message contains a line whose first word is send then the xstuff server will send you the item s named on the rest of the line to name an item you give its directory and its name for example send fixes a b you may issue multiple send requests the xstuff server contains many safeguards to ensure that it is not monopolized by people asking for large amounts of data the mailer is set up so that it will send no more than a fixed amount of data each day if the work queue contains more requests than the day s quota then the unsent files will not be processed until the next day whenever the mailer is run to send its day s quota it sends the requests out shortest first some mailers produce mail headers that are unusable for extracting return addresses if you use such a mailer you won t get any response if you happen to know an explicit path you can include a line like path foo bar bitnet mitvma mit edu or path bar foo frotz in the body of your message and the daemon will use it the xstuff server itself can be reached at xstuff expo lcs mit edu if your mailer deals in notation try sending to someplace mit eddie expo lcs mit edu xstuff based on information from the mit x consortium subject where can i get x r source and binaries integrated computer solutions inc ships x r on half inch quarter inch and tk formats call for ordering information the free software foundation sells x r on half inch tapes and on qic cartridges yaser doleh doleh math cs kent edu p o box kent oh is making x r available on hp format tapes track and sun cartridges european sites can obtain a free x r distribution from jamie watson who may be reached at chx pan jw or jw pan uu ch non standard logics requests nsl fr makes source available ixi limited is selling x r source on quarter inch cartridge formats and on and floppy with other formats available on request ixi virtual technologies provides the entire x r compressed source release on a single qic quarter inch cartridge and also on meg or meg floppies upon request conor cahill cpcahil virtech uu net young minds makes the r and gnu distributions available on a full text indexed cd rom note that some distributions are media only and do not include docs x r is ftp able from export lcs mit edu these sites are preferable though and are more direct machine internet ftp location name address directory west usa gatekeeper dec com pub x r central usa mordred cs purdue edu pub x r central usa giza cis ohio state edu pub x v r southeast usa uunet uu net x r northeast usa crl dec com pub x r uk janet src doc ic ac uk x v r uk niftp uk ac ic doc src xv r australia munnari oz au x v r the giza cis ohio state edu site in particular is known to have much of the contrib stuff that can be found on export the release is available to dec easynet sites as crl pub x r sites in australia may contact this address ftp adelaide edu au and check the directory pub x r the machine shadows export and archives comp sources x mark prior mrp ucs adelaide edu au note a much more complete list is distributed as part of the introductory postings to comp sources x a set of x r binaries built by tom roell roell informatik tu muenchen de for the ix will available from export lcs mit edu in contrib and in pub i x r from in europe stephen hite shite sinkhole unf edu can also distribute to folks without ftp facilities via disks sent sase contact him for usmail and shipping details in addition the binaries are available via uucp from szebra tb pep ogin nuucp sword nuucp in usr xbbs bbs x in addition the source is on zok in usrx i r server in addition if you are in the us the latest svr binary april patches and fonts are available on piggy ucsb edu in the directory pub x same filenames as above please use after pm pacific as these are large files a set of hp binaries is available on hpcvaaz cv hp com as ftp pub mitx r libs x z a set of x r binaries for the next x have been made available by howie kaye on cunixf cc columbia edu a set of binaries by john coolidge coolidge cs uiuc edu for the mac running a ux is available from wuarchive wustl edu in the file archive systems aux x r xupdate tar z also in x r diffs is a set of patches for making x r with shared libraries with mkshlib a complete distribution of sco x r binaries by baruch cochavy blue techunix technion ac il can be found on uunet the server is roell s x b compiled for et based svga boards subject where can i get osf motif you can obtain either osf motif source or binaries from a number of vendors motif source is now available it is based on x r motif is based on the r intrinsics and is currently at an osf motif source license must be obtained from osf before source can be obtained from the open software foundation or any value added vendor for any version call the direct channels desk at osf at for ordering information various hardware vendors produce developer s toolkits of binaries header files and documentation check your hardware vendor particularly if that vendor is an osf member in addition independent binary vendors produce motif toolkits for machines for which motif is not supported by a vendor the kits include varied levels of bug fixing and support for shared libraries and are based on widely divergent version of motif quest sells kits for suns as well ixi offers kits for sun and sun nsl requests nsl fr offers kits for the sun and sun bluestone consulting makes a kit for sun systems ics makes several binary kits notably for sun dec hp and dec have announced support for motif on sun systems unipalm currently offers for sun systems a motif development kit including x r and based on motif the us distributor is expert object corp bim ships motif binaries for suns shared library support is included contact alain vermeiren av sunbim be or danny backx db sunbim be at fax belgium silogic ships motif and motif on sun machines s i systems offers motif for solaris info in usa and canada metro link inc sales metrolink com in europe contact adnt univision uk ltd ships an implementation of x r and motif including a shared library implementation of libxm a for the unix market motif is also available for sun sparc based workstations it has also announced motif for solaris systems subject does motif work with x r x r motif is based on x r motif available in source form from osf as of august uses the vanilla x r intrinsics where vanilla means with just a few patches the file fix osf which osf distributes is obsoleted by mit s patches the file fix osf distributed with the version or its subsequent modification needs to be applied after mit fix though motif to will work with x r if x r is compiled with dmotifbc and later should work with the vanilla r although there are some known new geometry management problems subject where can i get toolkits implementing open look sun s xview has a sunview style api a version is on the x r tape the latest sources are on export in contrib xview xview and x binaries for the sun i roadrunner are available for ftp from svin win tue nl directory pub x r i supported binaries of xview or include xview for non sun platforms domestic and selected international vendors several are also available from sun contact your local sales office amiga gfxbase inc ellwell drive amigados milpitas ca fax sgi sony news os ibm rs hp decstation unipress software lincoln highway ultrix edison nj fax unipress software ltd po box viking house fax nelson street douglas isle of man united kingdom dec vaxstation tgv mission street vms tgv santa cruz ca fax unipalm ltd st neots road hardwick fax cambridge cb qj england intel quarterdeck office pico boulevard dos systems santa monica ca fax intel sunsoft corporation center drive west interactive suite unix and los angeles ca sco unix stardent scripps institute clinic mb stellix os fax n torrey pines road and titan os include mailstop mb la jolla ca by ftp in pub binary xview readme xview tar z at t s open look gui xt based toolkit is now generally available contact unix for information binaries are produced for sparc systems by international quest corporation a version of the toolkit is also produced under the name olit by sun more recent versions of olit have been ported to ibm and dec mips by both unipress and ics olit is also available for hp from melillo consulting mjm somerset nj makes olit for hp xx series running hpux decstations and rs s thanks to joanne newbauer jo attunix att com sun is shipping openwindows contact your local sales representative for more details the package includes toolkit binaries and header files parcplace s formerly solbourne s extensible c based object interface library which supports run time selection between open look or motif is available from subject where can i get other x sources including r modifications the mit software center ships the x test suite on tape a multi threaded version of xlib based on x r patch is now available for anonymous ftp from new version dec on gatekeeper dec com in pub x contrib mt xlib mit on export lcs mit edu in contrib mt xlib hp has made available drivers to permit the building of the x r sample server on the hp series workstations the files are on export lcs mit edu in ftp contrib r hp srv user contributed software is distributed through the newsgroup comp sources x moderated by chris olson chris imd sterling com also check that group for posting information richard hesketh rlh ukc ac uk has been creating a list of freely available x sources the list is stored on export lcs mit edu in contrib as x source list z it lists the main storage locations for the program and international sites from which it may be ftp ed the machine export lcs mit edu has a great deal of user contributed software in the contrib directory a good deal of it is present in current or earlier versions on the x r x r and x r contrib tapes there are also directories for fixes to contrib software the file on export in contrib index txt is a quick overall index of the software in that area provided by daniel lewart d lewart uiuc edu these sites used to and may still mirror export and are of particular use for australasia anonymous ftp ftp adelaide edu au acsnet fetchfile sirius ua oz the material on giza cis ohio state edu which tends to duplicate the export archives is also available via anonymous uucp from osu cis at tb and v speeds write to uucp cis ohio state edu same as osu cis uucp for instructions the archive is now maintained by karl kleinpaste a new west coast uucp x archive is administered by mark snitily mark zok uucp and contains the full x distribution the xtest distribution an entire archive of comp sources x and other goodies the machine zok has a tb modem which will connect to k baud in that order the anonymous uucp account is uxarch with password xgoodies the modem s phone number is a sample systems or l sys entry might be zok any acu in in uxarch word xgoodies to get a current listing of the files that are available download the file usrx ls lr z a full subject index of the comp sources x files is available in the file usrx comp sources x index the machine has just the one modem so please do not fetch large amounts of data at one sitting courtesy mark snitily in addition uunet source archives tracks comp sources x and provides mb of compressed programs on bpi tapes or tapes it also mirrors export contrib in its packages x directory subject where can i get interesting widgets the free widget foundation fwf library sponsored by brian totty totty cs uiuc edu is now available on a cs uiuc edu in pub fwf v shar z the set of widgets there is intended to form the basis for future contributions to be added to the discussion list send to listserv cs uiuc edu a message saying subscribe listname your full name where listname is one of free widgets announce free widgets development or free widgets bugs version is current look for in the xew widget set contains widgets for data representation version is on export contrib xew tar z peter ware s xo open widget set which has motif like functionality is on archive cis ohio state edu as pub xo xo tar z the athenatools plotter widget set version beta maintained by peter klingebiel klin iat uni paderborn de includes many graph and plotting widgets a copy is on export in plotter v b tar z plotter doc tar z plotter afm tar z and plotter readme the latest versions may in fact be on ftp uni paderborn de in unix tools an advance version of marc quinton s motif port of the fwf multilist widget is in ftp stna stna dgac fr pub multilist tar z additional widgets are available on the contrib portion of the x r tapes these include the xcu set paul johnston s johnston spc jpl nasa gov x control panel widget set emulates hardware counterparts sources are on export lcs mit edu in xc tar z o reilly volume doug young s book the asente swick book and jerry smith s object oriented programming with the x window system toolkits all include details on writing widgets and include several useful widgets sources are typically on export and or uunet the dirt interface builder includes the libxukc widet set which extends the functionality of xaw a graph widget and other d plot and d contour widgets by sundar narasimhan sundar ai mit edu are available from ftp ai mit edu as com ftp pub users sundar graph tar z the graph widget has been updated with documentation and histogram capabilities a graph widget is available from ftp stna stna dgac fr in pub graph tar z it uses a segment list for drawing and hence supports a zoom operation ken lee s xm widget demo that uses display postscript to draw labels at a non horizontal angle is on export in contrib dpslabel tar z the table widget works like troff tbl tables is available in several flavors one of which is with the widget creation library release bell communications research has developed a matrix widget for complex application layouts it s on export in contrib xbae widgets tar z the distribution also includes a caption widget to associate labels with particular gui components dan connolly s connolly convex com xcrichtext interprets rtf data it s on export as contrib xcrichtext tar z the xmgraph motif based graphing widget is on iworks ecn uiowa edu in comp hp gui classic xmgraph tar z although it may not be stable a tex style layout widget by keith packard is described in the proceedings of the th mit technical conference o reilly x resource volume source is available on export contrib layout tar z a version of lee iverson s leei mcrcim mcgill edu image viewing tool is available as contrib vimage tar z on export lcs mit edu the package also includes an imageviewport widget and a filedialog widget in addition the pext toolkit by rich thomson rthomson dsd es com is available on export as pext tar z it includes a pex widget making it easier to use pex in xt based programs a motif port of the xaw clock widget is in ftp stna stna dgac fr in pub clock tar z a modification of the xaw scrollbar widget which supports the arrowhead style of other toolkits is on export in contrib xaw scrollbar mta z a beta release of the r xaw widgets with a d visual appearance by kaleb keithley kaleb thyme jpl nasa gov is available on export in contrib xaw d r xaw d tar z the library which is binary compatible with the mit xaw implements a d subclass which handles the extra drawing also the xmt motif tools dovetail systems s shareware library of widgets and many convenience functions is available from export lcs mit edu contrib and ftp ora com pub xbook xmt in xmt readme and xmt tar z the xtra xwidgets set includes widgets for pie and bar charts xy plots help spreadsheets data entry forms and line and bar graphs contact graphical software technology at info gst com for information the xrt graph widget available for motif xview and olit displays x y plots bar and pie charts and supports user feedback fast updates and postscript output contact kl group inc at info klg com a set of data entry widgets for motif is available from marlan software gwg world std com a set of graph widgets is available from expert database systems a set of osf motif compound widgets and support routines for d visualization is available from ms quek lee hian national computer board republic of singapore tel fax leehian iti gov sg leehian itivax bitnet the ics widget databook includes a variety of control widgets and special purpose widgets available on a variety of platforms information info ics com information on graphing tools may be obtained from info tomsawyer com fax subject where can i get a good file selector widget the free widget foundation set offers a fileselector widget with separate directory path and file listing windows and the filecomplete which has emacs style file completion and expansion other available file requestor widgets include the xifileselector from iris software s book the xdbx file selector extracted by david nedde daven wpi wpi edu and the filenominator from the axe distribution the ghostview xfig and vimage packages also include file selector widgets subject what widget is appropriate to use as a drawing canvas some widget sets have a widget particularly for this purpose a workspace or drawingarea which doesn t display anything but lets your xt application know when it has been re exposed resized and when it has received user key and mouse input the best thing to do for other widget sets including the athena set is to create or obtain such a widget this is preferable to drawing into a core widget and grabbing events with xtaddeventhandler which loses a number of benefits of xt and encapsulation of the functionality at least one version has been posted to comp sources x name the publicly available programs xball and xpic include other versions the athena widget manual mit doc xaw template in the r distribution includes a tutorial and source code to a simple widget which is suitable for use the free widget foundation set contains a canvas widget subject what is the current state of the world in x terminals jim morton jim applix com posts quarterly to comp windows x a list of manufacturers and terminals it includes pricing information notable buyers guide surveys include the september issue of systems integration subject where can i get an x server with a touchscreen or lightpen labtam fax offers a surface acoustic wave touch screen option on its xengine terminals tektronix provides an x terminal with the xtouch touch screen this terminal may also be resold through trident systems metro link supports the elographics serial touch screen controllers subject where can i get an x server on a pc dos or unix mit x r already provides a server to many unixes with support for many of the popular video graphics adapters and for other non msdos pcs you can obtain a server from these sources xfree formerly x e is an enhanced version of x which was distributed with x r it includes many bug fixes speed improvements and other enhancements source for version is on export lcs mit edu in pub contrib ftp physics su oz au in x and ftp win tue nl in pub x in addition binaries are on ftp physics su oz au and ftp win tue nl among other systems info x physics su oz au note this package obsoletes glenn lai s speedup patches for an enhanced x r server for unixes with et boards speedup tar z on export metro link inc sales metrolink com in europe contact adnt ships an implementation of x r for the unix market sgcs offers x version based on thomas roell s x r two headed server in binary and source form information info sgcs com isc sco uhc and other well known operating system vendors typically offer x servers for msdos pcs daniel j mccoy mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov has started posting monthly a list of non unix servers for pcs macs and amigas it includes pricing information the current copy is kept on export in contrib as xservers nonunix txt z an article on pc x servers appears in the march open systems today also of possible use net i from programit enables communication among dos os and unix machines and can be used to display pc sessions on your unix x display subject where can i get an x server on a macintosh running macos exodus from white pine software runs on any mac with at least mb of memory and runs the x server within a standard macintosh window version supports intermixing of x and mac windows and the adsp protocol the version supports the shape extension and includes decwindows support apple s macx runs on macplus or newer machines with mb of memory and system software or later version is fully x r based it supports full icccm compatible cut and paste of text and graphics between the macintosh and x worlds the shape extension including shaped windows on the macintosh desktop an optional built in icccm compliant window manager x r fonts and colors a built in bdf font compiler and built in standard colormaps upgrades to macx are available by ftp from aux support apple com info note macx is also the name of a vax mac xmodem transfer utility also liken unix or info qualix com software enables monochrome mac applications to run on a sparc system running x xport unix or xport qualix com enables mac applications to display on an x based workstation by turning the mac into an x client intercon has a product called planet x which enables mac applications to display on an x server subject where can i get x for the amiga the new amiga machines offer an x server and open look tools and libraries on a full svr implementation gfxbase inc provides x r for the amigados computer it contains x r clients fonts etc and a release color server an optional programmer s toolkit includes the header files libraries and sample programs info from gfxbase dale luck uunet cbmvax pyramid boing dale subject where can i get a fast x server for a workstation the r server should be among the fastest available for most machines sun sells a direct xlib product which improves rendering for applications running on the same machine as the x server the replacement xlib library accesses graphics hardware directly using sun s direct graphics access dga technology international quest corporation has an optimized r server for sun under sunos unipalm have r servers for sun and sparc platforms these are optimised to use graphics hardware and will run with sunview information or xtech unipalm co uk xgraph s xtool is an x server implemented in sunview which boasts impressive results on sun and sparc systems several companies are making hardware accellerator boards dupont pixel systems for sun megatek s x cellerator board for the sun and sun is based on the ti the company claims performance improvements of x to x over the sample x r server subject where can i get a server for my high end sun graphics board takahashi naoto electrotechnical laboratory ntakahas etl go jp has modified the mit x r server to support the sun cg cg and cg boards the files are on export in contrib xsun tar z note that both files are necessary to build xsun the jpl r xsun multi screen server is a general purpose replacement for the mit server ddx sun layer it provides for the screen to be split among several monitors and implements several other features above the mit implementation available on export lcs mit edu in the file contrib r xsun multi screen tar z kaleb keithley kaleb thyme jpl nasa gov the file was updated mar subject where can i get an x terminal server for my low end sun seth robertson seth ctr columbia edu has written xkernel the current version as of expected rsn is on sol ctr columbia edu in pub xkernel gamma it turns a sun into a pseudo x terminal most of the overhead of the operating system is side stepped so it is fairly fast and needs little disk space a similar approach is to run the regular x server by making etc init a shell script which does the minimal setup and then invokes xsun like this example script from mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu bin sh exec dev console etc fsck p dev nd case in etc reboot q n echo nd fsck failed get help etc halt echo interrupted etc reboot echo unknown error in reboot fsck get help etc halt esac bin dd if tmp fs of dev nd bs count dev null etc mount dev nd tmp etc ifconfig le netmask broadcast etc mount o ro apollo u x lib local lib x etc route add default dev null set etc ifconfig le exec xsun once multidisp mux query sh vn local lib x xdm servers subject what terminal emulators other than xterm are available pcs has rewritten xterm from scratch using a multi widget approach that can be used by applications a version is on the r contrib tape and on export in contrib emu tar z for more information contact me dude pcs com mxterm a motif based xterm is available from the paderborner ftp server ftp uni paderborn de file unix x more contrib mxterm tar z the color terminal widget provides ansi terminal emulation compatible with the vtx series a version is on export in contrib ctw tar z a motif version is on ftp stna stna dgac fr in pub term tar z kterm is an x r based vt vt and tektronix terminal emulator that supports display of chinese japanese and korean text in vt mode also supported are ansi color sequences multi byte word selection limited compound text support and tab and newline preservation in selections kterm is also available from these anonymous ftp sites clr nmsu edu pub misc kterm tar z export lcs mit edu contrib kterm tar z kum kaist ac kr pub unix xstuffs kterm tar z courtesy of mark leisher mleisher nmsu edu kterm tar z is now on export mterm by mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu is an x terminal emulator which includes ansi x and dec emulation modes mterm can be had by ftp to larry mcrcim mcgill edu in x mterm src mterm ball o wax cxterm is a chinese xterm which supports both gb and the so called big encoding hanzi input conversion mechanism is builtin in cxterm most input methods are stored in external files that are loaded at run time users can redefine any existing input methods or create their own ones the x r cxterm is the rewritten of cxterm version based on x r xterm it is in the r contrib software thanks to zhou ning zhou tele unit no and steinar bang uunet idt unit no steinarb xvt is available on export s contrib in xvt tar z and xvt readme it is designed to offer xterm s functionality with lower swap space and may be of particular use on systems driving many x terminals x is in x r contrib also ibm sells a emulator for the rs part it s based on motif century software sells a vt terminal emulator for x vt wyse and sco color console emulation are also available grafpoint s tgraf x provides emulation of tektronix and xx graphics terminals it s available for most major platforms information inc free demo copies fax uunet grafpnt sales ixi s x deskterm a package for integrating character based applications into an x environment includes a number of terminal emulation modules information pericom produces teem x a set of several emulation packages for a number of tek dec westward and data general terminals the software runs on sun sun apollo dec isc ibm aix information us uk sco s scoterm info sco com part of its open desktop environment is a motif compliant sco ansi color console emulator subject where can i get an x based editor or word processor you can ftp a version of gnu emacs the extensible customizable self documenting real time display editor including x support from prep ai mit edu pub gnu emacs tar z or informatik tu muenchen de pub gnu emacs emacs tar z epoch is a modified version of gnu emacs with additional facilities useful in an x environment current sources are on cs uiuc edu in ftp pub epoch files epoch the current version is in europe try unido informatik uni dortmund de there are two subdirectories epoch contains the epoch source and gwm contains the source to the programmable window manager gwm with which epoch works well you can get on the epoch mailing list by sending a request to epoch request cs uiuc edu lucid emacs is a version of gnu emacs derived from an early version of emacs version it currently requires x windows to run x support is greatly enhanced over gnu emacs version including support for multiple x windows input and display of all iso latin characters zmacs lispm style region highlighting a customizable motif like menubar more powerful keymap support flexible text attributes support on regional and screen local basis through x resources and or lisp and support for the x selection mechanism lucid emacs is free the latest version is and is available from labrea stanford edu in the pub gnu lucid directory the andrew system on the x contrib tapes has been described as one of the best word processing packages available it supports word processing with multi media embedded objects rasters tables spread sheets drawings style editor application builder embedded programming language c release became available june fred hansen wjh andrew cmu edu you may be able to use the remote andrew demo service to try this software try finger help atk itc cmu edu for help the interviews c toolkit contains a wysiwig editor called doc it saves and loads files in a latex like format not quite latex the package can also import idraw postscript drawings a simple editor axe by j k wight newcastle ac uk is available on export and arjuna newcastle ac uk as axe tar z it is based around the xaw text widget ted is a simple motif based text editor it is a wrapper around the motif text widget which offers search replace paragraph formatting and navigation features ted is available from ftp eos ncsu edu as pub bill tar z here are also executables there point by crowley unmvax cs unm edu charlie crowley is tcl tk based and offers dyanimic configuration and programming in the tcl macro language the editor is available from unmvax cs unm edu as pub point point tar z asedit by andrzej stochniol astoch ic ac uk is on export in contrib asedit tar z it is a simple text editor built around the motif text widget version was released also elan computer group mountain view ca has announced the avalon publisher an x open look wysiwyg electronic publishing system framemaker and framewriter are available as x based binary products for several machines frame is at ca wx formerly indepthedit is available from non standard logics requests nsl fr buzzwords international inc has an editor called professional edit that runs under x motif for various platforms info decwrite is available from dec for some dec hardware and sunwrite is available from sun islandwrite will soon be available from island graphics info island com for some hp apollo platforms interleaf is currently available from interleaf ma on all sun and dec platforms others are under development the aster x office integration tools from applix applix ma include a multi font wysiwg document composer for several systems arbortext inc provides an x version of its electronic publishing program called the publisher the publisher is available on sun hp and apollo workstations contact arbortext at iris computing laboratories offers the ie editor info or info spectro com bbn slate from bbn software products includes a menu driven word processor with multiple fonts and style sheets it supports x on multiple platforms or slate offer bbn com the powerful sam editor by rob pike is split into a host portion and a front end graphics portion which now has an x implementation sam is now available by anonymous ftp from research att com in dist sam bundle z watch that space for updated versions there is a mailing list for sam users requests to sam fans request hawkwind utcs toronto edu a set of extensions which augment the mouse activity with the keyboard is available from uxc cso uiuc edu in pub sam samx shar innovative solutions or brian zimbelman is brian bbx basis com publishes the user configurable motif based xamine editor qualix offers a product information info qualix com or unix typex is a motif based editor available for several systems information amcad research fax wordperfect offers an x based version of wordperfect for several workstations information or subject where can i get an x based mailer xmh an x interface to mh is distributed with the x release xmail is an x based window interface to berkeley style mail handlers it is styled primarily after the sunview mailtool application and builds on most unix systems the current release is available in the mit x r contrib tape and from export and uunet info jeff markham markham cadence com mmh my mail handler a motif interface to the mh mail handler is available from ftp eos ncsu edu in pub bill tar z it is bundled with the ted editor which it uses for composing messages motif is required if you don t have it look for dec and sparc executables in the same place information and problems to erik scott escott eos ncsu edu the andrew toolkit supports the andrew message system it is available from export and many other x archives and from emsworth andrew cmu edu or send email to susan andrew cmu edu release became available june you may be able to use the remote andrew demo service to try this software try finger help atk itc cmu edu for help xmailtool is an xaw based interface to a bsd style mail reader version was released information bob kierski bobo cray com or cem is a motif based mailer using standard mailbox formats it is on nelson tx ncsu edu in pub cem information sam moore sam moore ncsu edu also alfalfa software offers poste a unix based mailer that has motif and command based interfaces it includes support for multimedia enclosures and supports both the internet and x mail standards information info alfalfa com z code software offers z mail for most unix systems binaries support both tty and motif interfaces the mailer includes a csh like scripting language for customizing and extending mail capabilities information info z code com several vendors systems include x based mailers dec offers dxmail sun offers an x based mailtool sco info sco com includes scomail in its open desktop product several integrated office productivity tools include mailers the aster x office integration tools from applix applix ma include a mailer subject where can i get an x based paint draw program xpic is an object oriented drawing program it supports multiple font styles and sizes and variable line widths there are no rotations or zooms xpic is quite suitable as an interactive front end to pic though the xpic format produced can be converted into postscript the latest version is on the r contrib tape in clients xpic xfig by brian v smith bvsmith lbl gov is an object oriented drawing program supporting compound objects the xfig format can be converted to postscript or other formats recent versions are on the r contrib tape or on export in contrib r fixes version idraw supports numerous fonts and various line styles and arbitrary rotations it supports zoom and scroll and color draws and fills the file format is a postscript dialect it can import tiff files distributed as a part of the interviews c toolkit current release from interviews stanford edu a version of robert forsman s thoth lightning cis ufl edu xscribble an bit paint program for x is now on ftp cis ufl edu in pub thoth xpaint is available from ftp ee lbl gov as xpaint tar z a rewrite xpaint by david koblas koblas netcom com was released as xpaint pl tar z xpaint is a bitmap pixmap editing tool a new openwindows postscript based graphical editor named ice is now available for anonymous ftp from internet host lamont ldgo columbia edu ice image composition environment is an imaging tool that allows raster images to be combined with a wide variety of postscript annotations in wysiwyg fashion via x imaging routines and news postscript rasterizing it may require openwindows and sun c tgif by william cheng william oahu cs ucla edu is available from most uucp sites and also from export and from cs ucla edu it is frequently updated version patch was released the pixmap program info colas sa inria fr for creating pixmaps is on the r contrib tape it resembles the bitmap client version is now available although metacard is not generally classified as a paint program a full bit color image editor is built into the program which can be used for light image editing and for producing color icons info metacard com metacard is available via anonymous ftp from ftp metacard com csn org or pixt by j michael flanery produces xpm output also dxpaint is a bitmap oriented drawing program most like macpaint it s good for use by artists but commonly held to be bad for drawing figures or drafting dxpaint is part of dec s ultrix release framemaker has some draw capabilities bbn slate from bbn software products includes a full featured draw and paint program with object grouping and multiple patterns multiple x platforms or slate offer bbn com dux ta dah islandgraphics offers islanddraw islandpaint islandpresent info corel draw ported to x by prior data sciences arts letters composer ficor autograph openwindows includes the olpixmap editor sco odt includes the scopaint editor hp vue includes the vueicon editor several integrated office productivity tools include draw paint capabilities the aster x office integration tools from applix applix ma include draw paint capabilities thanks in part to stephen j byers af cobcs cummins com and to j daniel smith dsmith ann arbor applicon slb com david b lewis faq craft uunet uu net just the faqs ma am joe friday david b lewis temporarily at but not speaking for visual inc day dbl visual com evening david craft uunet uu net
comp.windows.x	re honors degrees do they mean anything tkld cogsci ed ac uk kevin davidson writes in my opinion a programming degree is still worth having yes but a cs degree is not a programming degree does anybody know of a computing course where programming is taught computer science is a branch of maths or the course i did was i ve also done a software engineering course much more practical and likely to be the sort of thing an employer really wants rather than what they think they want but also did not teach programming the ability to program was an entry requirement try the m sc computing science course at the real newcastle university it s a conversion course but at least they teach real programming in the space of months we were taught pascal simula prolog miranda also some basic low level stuff was covered as well they also did concurrent programming and operating systems some software engineering plus quite a few optional units including database theory and some stuff about comms the pascal is to be replaced by c c i think next year i learn t this and x windows programming as well anyway via a good selection of project over the final three months depending on your tastes the selection of skills learn t can be quite wide reaching the one critiscism i would level at the course which i would have thought invaluable is the lack of an option to do the project period in industry this would probably need a slightly longer project period say six months but would enhance the prestige and usefulness of an already excellent and thorough course yes i know this sounds like a plug for the course why not mackem ian
comp.windows.x	re cute x clients try this include stdio h include x xlib h include x xutil h display dpy int screen xcolor xclrs xclrp xid cmap int cells i j red green blue got main dpy xopendisplay null screen defaultscreen dpy cells displaycells dpy screen cmap xcreatecolormap dpy rootwindow dpy screen defaultvisual dpy screen xclrs xcolor malloc cells sizeof xclrs xclrp xclrs for i i cells i xclrp pixel i xclrp flags xclrp xquerycolors dpy defaultcolormap dpy screen xclrs cells xstorecolors dpy cmap xclrs cells xinstallcolormap dpy cmap got while got xclrp xclrs got for i i cells i if xclrp red xclrp red got if xclrp green xclrp green got if xclrp blue xclrp blue got xclrp xstorecolors dpy cmap xclrs cells xinstallcolormap dpy cmap got while got xclrp xclrs got for i i cells i if xclrp red xclrp red got if xclrp green xclrp green got if xclrp blue xclrp blue got xclrp xstorecolors dpy cmap xclrs cells xinstallcolormap dpy cmap it will work on any pseudocolor xserver hopefully o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.windows.x	re trouble compiling x r on sunos i was having the same problems compiling x r on a ipc sunos if you compile with make k world it will not stop on the ld errors as was stated in another post the clients with the errors still run correctly victor martinez vic fajita saic com
comp.windows.x	fwd progressives happy hour forwarding begins here date wed apr edt from women s center women andrew cmu edu to dist afs andrew cmu edu usr women dlists happyhour announce dl andrew cmu edu subject progressives happy hour enjoy good food and interesting company at the progressives happy hour thursday april starting at pm at the women s center located next to the laundromat in the margaret morrison plaza kosher for passover food will be served all are welcome good things to drink will be there but paper cups won t please be progressive and bring a cup or mug with you co sponsored by the student government president and funded by the student activites fee end of forwarding
comp.windows.x	problems with open windows after having openwindows version for sunos or xwindows running continuously on my machine for days the following message appears when trying to open a new window or to run any program that needs to open windows xview error cannot open connection to window server server package i would greatly appreciate any suggestions to solve this problem yali amit department of statistics university of chicago chicago il
comp.windows.x	problems with openwindows after having openwindows version for sunos or xwindows running continuously on my machine for days the following message appears when trying to open a new window or to run any program that needs to open windows xview error cannot open connection to window server server package i would greatly appreciate any suggestions to solve this problem yali amit department of statistics university of chicago chicago il
comp.windows.x	re xv root with vue was re xloadimage onroot on apr pdt jan camhpp mdcbbs com jan vandenbrande said jan nntp posting host jan on a related note how can i use xv to display colored gifs on my jan root display with hp vue jan all i can do with vue is display xbm s through their jan backdrop style manager jan xv does not seem to be able to override whatever vue jan puts there i suspect this is because vue creates a window probably overrideredirect that is the size of or larger than the root window because the window manager does not know about this you cannot move resize etc it xv in the mean time is busy changing your root window to whatever you have requested but you never get to see it because vue s window is overlaid on top of the root window contact hp support and see whether vue can support coloured bitmap format such as xpm if they cant then they probably create all their coloured backdrops inside the code guy singh ixi internet guy x co uk vision park uucp guy ixi uucp cambridge bang uunet ixi guy cb zr uk tel
comp.windows.x	how can i rotate text hi i am programming in xview sunos openwindows i would like to rotate some text and display it i did read the faq in comp windows x but am not sure how do i translate it to xview i would appreciate if someone can give me tips on how to do it thanx mahendra ps as i am not a frequent news group reader i would appreciate if answers replies would be mailed to me i will post a follow up mahendra chheda mmc cs rit edu mmc ritvax isc rit edu office residence dept of computer science kimball drive rochester institute of tech rochester ny tel tel
comp.windows.x	re trouble compiling x r on sunos in article apr fwi uva nl casper fwi uva nl casper h s dik writes epstein trwacs fp trw com jeremy epstein writes dmm head cfa harvard edu david meleedy writes there s a bug in sunos which is alluded to in the faq although there it s talking about x r as being affected you need to force libxmu to be linked statically rather than dynamically which works around the linker error the simplest thing to do is edit each of the makefiles where there s a failure and change the line which reads xmulib l xmusrc lxmu to xmulib l xmusrc bstatic lxmu bdynamic no this is only relevant for openwindows x as shipped with sunos it is not relevant for mit r mit r should compile without problems casper i don t know how many hours you ve spent on this but the sun user group makes x r available on cd rom to its members the disk has both sources and binaries and it sells for i ve tagged a table of contents and an orderform on below if anyone s interested alex newman alex newman voice my life may be stressful troll sug org fax but at least it s not boring sun user group beacon st brookline ma sug cd is x r and gnu on a cdrom priced at to sug members including a caddy sug s emphasis has always been on supplying the greatest possible service and value added to our members last year the sug disk contained plug and play x r mb of additional essential binaries almost mb of sun patches fully indexed archives of sun related net postings priced at only our aim this year has been to reduce the price for disks which can be produced inexpensively but to continue to supply as much value added as possible to accomplish this we will be putting out a two disk set the first containing what s ready and needed now the second available later in containing more sparc binaries and other useful material not found on previous disks the sug disk which was assembled by robert a bruce contains a lot of essential source code and we decided it would be a great service to make it available right away to our members and this pricing makes this a good opportunity to become a member for per disk including one of those hard to find caddies if you are not a sug member you can become one for an additional if you live within the us or outside the sug cdrom is an iso disk which means it can be used by pc macintosh and other workstations as well and contains a total of mb of material including x r sources and core binaries for sparc as of several weeks after the initial distribution thus four fixes and the the mit contrib distribution are included mb of material binaries for x xsun xsunmono appres atobm auto box bdftopcf beach ball bitmap bmtoa constype editres fs fsinfo fslsfonts fstobdf ico imake kbd mode listres lndir makedepend maze mkdirhier mkfontdir oclock plbpex puzzle resize showfont showrgb startx twm viewres x perf x perfcomp xauth xbiff xcalc xclipboard xclock xcmsdb xcmstest xconsole xcutsel xditview xdm xdpr xdpyinfo xedit xev xeyes xfd xfontsel xgas xgc xhost xinit xkill xload xlogo xlsatoms xlsclients xlsfonts xmag xman xmh xmkmf xmodmap xon xpr xprop xrdb xrefresh xset xsetroot xstdcmap xterm xwd xwininfo xwud copies of contributed x sources from export lcs mit edu contrib which were then uncompressed untarred into source directories mb these are sources only and some of them were after the date of production of this disk included in the mit contrib and contrib distributions gnu sources which were uncompressed untarred into source directories mb sparc binaries and needed libraries for these gnu programs a p ar as basename bash bison cat cc cc plus chgrp chmod chown ci cmp co comm compress cp cpio cpp ctags cut cvs date dd df diff diff dir dirname du egrep elvis emacs env etags expand expr fgrep find find perl flex fold g g dep g filt gawk gcc gdb ginstall gnuchess gnuchessn gnuchessr gnugo gnuplot gnuplot x gprof grep h ph head id ident indent ispell ld ld less ln locate logname ls m make merge mkdir mkfifo mkmodules mknod mt mv nice nm oleo paste pathchk perl pr printenv printf ranlib rcs rcsdiff rcsinfo rcsmerge rcstest ref refont rlog rm rmdir rmt s p screen sed size sleep split strip stty sum tac tail taintperl tar tee test time touch tput tty uname unexpand uniq vdir virec whoami xargs xchess yes zmore an archive of comp source x postings volume through volume mb parts are supplied just as posted you get to put together the pieces compile install etc cost sug members non members additional within the us elsewhere shipping handling inside the usa elsewhere mail to sun user group inc suite beacon street brookline ma usa voice fax the sun user group also accepts visa and mastercard via telephone or electronically cut here and return completed form the sugcd order form the price of the cd is shipping and handling add usa or intl if you are not a member of the sun user group add usa or international to the above sums for membership you must be a sug member to purchase the cd rom i enclose a us check for sug member in the usa sug member outside the usa includes membership inside the usa includes international membership name signature company name sug membership if known electronic mail address telephone number check enclosed mastercard visa credit card exp date card holder signature ship to bill to i hereby authorize the sun user group to renew my membership and charge my credit card automatically on an annual basis i do not wish my name to be included in non sun user group mailings i do not wish my name to be published in the sun user group member directory i wish to be added to the sun user group electronic mailing list members only outside the u s only individuals outside of the usa may find using their credit cards easier than purchasing us checks as this eliminates bank charges sun user group beacon street suite brookline ma voice fax email office sug org
comp.windows.x	problem with tek xterminal we have recently purchased a tektronix xterminal and i m having a problem with it we have a graphics widget that we wrote to display waveforms and it doesn t work on the xterminal the buttons etc all show up and it seems to take the right amount of time to draw but nothing is visible in the graphics window i have no clue as to where to start looking the program works fine on all our suns s and s color and b w could anyone suggest a line of attack for this problem tekxpress xp color xterminal running host is a sun ipx running sunos and x r pl ned danieley ndd sunbar mc duke edu basic arrhythmia laboratory box duke university medical center durham nc or
comp.windows.x	remapping return key in a dialog i am new to x programming so please bear with me i am trying to have a dialog box that returns it s value upon the user entering a new value and hitting the return key don t want to have a done button the piece of code below will work if i exclude the xtnvalue argument but will not work as is can someone shed some light on this or suggest a better way ultimately i will have several areas active at the same time to allow a user to modify parameters in the program thanks for your help karen rogers dupont rogerskm pluto es dupont com code starts here void doit printf entered the doit function n exit main argc argv int argc char argv widget toplevel widget outer xtappcontext app con widget samples arg args static xtactionsrec key actions doit doit toplevel xtvaappinitialize app con test null argc argv null null outer xtcreatemanagedwidget paned panedwidgetclass toplevel null zero xtappaddactions app con key actions xtnumber key actions xtsetarg args xtnlabel enter value xtsetarg args xtnvalue samples xtcreatemanagedwidget samples dialogwidgetclass outer args xtoverridetranslations samples xtparsetranslationtable key return doit xtrealizewidget toplevel xtappmainloop app con
comp.windows.x	joining the x consortium hi does anyone have any information on joining the x consortium what are the costs what are the benefits who should i contact thanks
comp.windows.x	re honors degrees do they mean anything justin kibell jck catt citri edu au wrote what has this got to do with comp windows x i agree that this is a side track but it is funny that i skip so many other articles threads but i couldn t resist reading this one my beliefs opinions and expressions are strictly my own and do not represent or reflect any official or unofficial policies or attitudes of any other person or organization but i have heard that ford motor company has had a recruiting bias toward engineers and away from computer science graduates the reasoning is supposedly to better meet long range personnel requirements this is evidenced by the large number of cs people who are employed via contracts and are not brought on board except in special circumstances this is a generalization which obviously doesn t always hold true but there are statistics furthermore most software engineering at ford gets done by electrical engineers i know of univerities that have merged the computer science department and the electrical engineering so that you can get a computer degree which qualifies you for much more than programming but since my beliefs and opinions are merely figments of my distorted imagination i suppose i should keep it to myself
comp.windows.x	large color monitors does anyone have any information advice on large color monitors to use with a system running x server software i maining looking for quality information and price but all information is welcomed thanks david it s all ball bearings fletch
comp.windows.x	re converting contents of x window to color postscript jeff haferman haferman icaen uiowa edu wrote can somebody point me to source code for dumping the contents of an x window into a color postscript file i have written an app which brings up an x window and i want at the click of the mouse to dump the window into a postscript file thanks jeff haferman internet haferman icaen uiowa edu department of mechanical engineering dod bmwmoa ama the university of iowa iowa city ia r s i use xwd and xwd ps to do it from within a program i use xwd id xxxxx where xxxxx is the window id obtained from xtwindow widget raju gurung i t i t building dept of electrical eng university of manchester oxford rd manchester u k
comp.windows.x	xremote into x r hi i remember reading or hallucinating that ncd s pc xremote functionality had been given by ncd to mit for inclusion in x r is this true if so set mode cheap can i just wait for x r to get compressed serial line x server support thanks terry lemons digital equipment corporation
comp.windows.x	any recent information on frescoe does anyone know of any recent information on the frescoe work being done by the consortium i ve seen the short description that was published in the x resource but am looking for something with a bit more depth to it
comp.windows.x	pointer xlib hi i am trying to implement a pointer feature in xlib i have multiple windows and all can take input and show output simultaneously on all other displays i want to implement a pointer feature i would like to get the pointer to come up on all windows once i choose pointer in the menu and every one should be able to see it can you give me some hints as to how i should proceed i am new to xlib replies will be greatly appreciated thank you prakash duvvuri cs odu edu
comp.windows.x	xterm and default text cursor color what i want to be able to do is to set the cursor color to the same as the forground color that is set for that xterm from the man page cr color this option specifies the color to use for text cur sor the default is to use the same foreground color that is used for text however this doesnt seem to be the case it appears to default to black or to whatever xterm cursorcolor is set to feel free to point me at the relevant fm or whatever cheers c
comp.windows.x	string to widget resource converter can anybody tell me how to use the xmu function xmucvtstringtowidget i want to specify a widget name in a resource file so that i can connect two widgets together on an xmform ie myproggy mylistsw topwidget maintextsw however when i run the program i get the message warning no type converter registered for string to window conversion just like the manual sez i have managed to find this bit of code which seems to be the correct way to go about this static xtconvertargrec parentcvtargs xtwidgetbaseoffset xtpointer xtoffsetof corerec core parent sizeof corewidget xtsettypeconverter xtrstring xtrwidget xmucvtstringtowidget parentcvtargs xtnumber parentcvtargs xtcacheall null however i haven t got a clue where to put it the example code i have seems to suggest i can only do this if i am creating my own widget but elsewhere it says that i can add it to a widget s class intialize function how what s one of those if anybody has any code to do this please let me know the trick i m sure this is a faq thanks in advance rik ps what are the header files corep h and intrinsicsp h should i use these or core h and intrinsics h ok i know rtfm richard turnbull dept computer science e mail university of liverpool rik compsci liverpool ac uk liverpool l bx england phone
comp.windows.x	re q how to avoid xopendisplay hang don t know how to avoid the xopendisplay hang but perhaps you could use something else such as zephyr perhaps rob
comp.windows.x	problem with mit shm i am trying to write an image display program that uses the mit shared memory extension the shared memory segment gets allocated and attached to the process with no problem but the program crashes at the first call to xshmputimage with the following message x error of failed request badshmseg invalid shared segment parameter major opcode of failed request mit shm minor opcode of failed request x shmputimage segment id in failed request x serial number of failed request current serial number in output stream like i said i did error checking on all the calls to shmget and shmat that are necessary to create the shared memory segment as well as checking xshmattach there are no problems if anybody has had the same problem or has used mit shm without having the same problem please let me know by the way i am running openwindows on a sun sparc thanks in advance john c
comp.windows.x	re q how to avoid xopendisplay hang in article c xr oy skates gsfc nasa gov andy ice stx com writes i m writing xwall a simple x version of wall and i want it to put a message up on each of a default list of displays the problem is that xopendisplay hangs if one of the displays is currently controlled by xdm login screen xdm does xgrabserver when it s running in secure mode so do some screen locks there s really no simple way to tell this is the case you can take xdm out of secure mode probably not too cool you can wrap your call to xopendisplay in some code which solicts a future sigalrm and longjmps past the xopendisplay from the signal handler an example of this can be seen in the xdm sources note that longjmping out of xopendisplay probably causes a memory leak any program functioning this way probably needs to exit regularly
comp.windows.x	re gui study in article apr kocrsv delcoelect com c xjfa kocrsv delcoelect com james f allman iii writes i m doing a study on what the following type of users would like to have on a unix manager basically i m looking for the unix commands and features on motif window interface which will help the different type of users make use of unix personally i can t stand motif i also can t stand gui command line interfaces for things like access to the commands i know command line and love i think you ll find that experience sic users command line der mouse a year and a half ago i felt the same way the i started using gooyies give me the command line when something out of the ordinary needs done and the gooy when i am doing normal or repative work note that most operations are repetative hackers love cls because what i like about gui s the ability to view and manipulate a group of objects files text directories etc and and manipulate them in some way such as delete copy paste rename the ability to have several applications screens visible and accessable at the same time being able to do a standard set of functions easily and quickly on an unfamiliar operating system i am familiar with the command lines of several operating systems but occasionally i will have to some work on a system that i almost never use if it has a gui i can usually accomplish what i want to do fairly easily the command line on the other hand often is a long and painful experience what i hate about gui s having to switch between the mouse and the keyboard i guess i have a strong one handed preference i like to use a computer with one hand and use the other for holding something like a piece of paper of a mug of tea i have configured my favorite editor so that most of the editing functions can be done with one hand such as navigating cutting pasting searching opening and saving files etc the main thing i need to use both hands for is entering text i guess i need to get one of those mice with like buttons or something and then i will have the best of both worlds brent
comp.windows.x	motif and interviews hi i am in the process of making the decision whether i should write c wrappers for motif myself or use motif or interviews though i have downloaded the tar files i fail to see any documentation i have two questions if you have used these or similar c sy toolkits what has been your experience where do i find reference books documentation for them any and all input will be greatly appreciated unmesh
comp.windows.x	re lost in tekhvc color space hi xtici worked for my system i m using x r pl clientside only on a dec on ultrix may be you have a serious floatingpoint compilation problem o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.windows.x	books on i c c other than i c c m can anyone recomend a good book or article on inter client communications besides i c c m i ve looked everywhere i can and it seems everyone tells you how to do it but nobody shows you how o reilly has no examples iccm has no examples asente swick give no examples in fact most of the books i ve looked at if they discuss icc at all simply give a condensed version of the iccm and then refer you to the iccm i did find one example of how to use atoms and properties in young s book and five hours after i bought young s book i had my applications talking to each other i am not sure however if thats the best way i d like to stay independent of unix so pipes and or sockets probably aren t the way to go but within x one can also use messages the clipboard and perhaps window groups i need a text that discusses the various methods discusses which method is best for which purpose and gives examples without examples it s all just words thanks in advance ross
comp.windows.x	how to disable reverse video on xterm man well i am not sure if this is the right newsgroup to ask but let me try anyway i am running xterm and like all unix users i run man something recently i switched to solaris and their man pages are littered with i directives that are somehow translated into reverse video when displayed by man under xterm the resulting output admittedly a personal taste is very annoying to look at back when i was using sunos i remember their man pages have some keywords displayed with underlining so my question is how do i change the xterm s behaviour under i directives for nroff man pages to perhaps underlining or at least disabling it b directives are fine i like them and of course i don t want to go in and edit the man pages inputs somehow xterm allows one to specify both a normal font and a bold font but not an italic font any pointers suggestions are greatly appreciated thanks john p s running xterm rv won t work i tried
comp.windows.x	re teleuse uim x and c hubec ctp com hubert chou writes does anyone have any good ideas on how to integrate c code elegantly with teleuse uim x interface architect generated code source would be great but any suggestions are welcome alsys has produced a paper outlining how to use c with teleuse you can get a copy from your local sales rep or call us at as mentioned it is very straight forward using the dialog language similar to visual basic tom erickson alsys tne world std com south bedford street burlington ma
comp.windows.x	re gui toolkit for the sun sparc in article c m cuug ab ca winsorr sun robin winsor writes you are right to be going motif rather than openlook sun has just recently seen the light and dumped their commitment to openlook in the announcement they stated they have no future plans for devguide this is incorrect sun has made no such claim regarding devguide and as manager of the devguide engineering group i can state with authority that work on devguide is continuing apace we had quite a strong show of interest from the devguide user community at last week s solaris developer s conference devguide is being advocated not only as a valuable future builder tool but as an important bit of transition technology that will help sustain current customers and facilitate their migration to the cose desktop environment if you have specific questions about devguide availability etc you can contact tali aben our devguide product marketing person at david bryant devguide manager sunsoft
comp.windows.x	x for pc for those of you who couldn t find x appeal it is availible at the following sitex ascwide ascii co jp in the pub msdos xappeal dir wuarchive wustl edu in the mirrors garbo uwasa fi demo directory the three files are xap exe aip xap fon zip and drivers zip josh joshua weage u s snail spring rd baroda mi e mail cs freenet in a cwru edu ai yfn ysu edu fidonet joshua weage all ideas are my own and no one elses
comp.windows.x	widgets vs gadgets i ve been using the xmgraph widget that s been floating around and i noticed the performance is significantly better using gadgets perhaps even faster i had heard in an old programming course that gadgets were no longer any benefit to performance and that it s just as well to use widgets everywhere interesting i d like to know why but try it again on a single ethernet with x terminals on it and i think you ll find it much slower adrian nye o reilly and associates
comp.windows.x	help sunview on olwm xview x r hi i just compiled the x r distribution for a sun sunos i also compiled the public domain xview with olwm distribution i have some old rd party application binaries that are sunview programs how do i get them to work under xview and olwm i tried using the openwindows version svenv program but it did not work i do not have news access that s why i am mailing this directly also is there an email alias where my questions can get to comp windows x or comp windows open look please respond to fwr bv fin af mil thanks shash shash chatterjee email fwr bv fin af mil ec software phone lockheed fort worth company fax p o box mz ft worth tx
comp.windows.x	re i need source for splines in article ppvhtinn fmsrl srl ford com glang slee srl ford com gordon lang writes in the xlib programming manual o rielly associates it is pointed out that routines for drawing splines is not included in xlib but extensions are publicly available i need spline routines which work within the x environment i have previously posted a similar request and got two responses both directing me to the interviews package at interviews stanford edu i got it but it is too much it looks like too much work to try to identify extract and modify relevant components i am looking for code that is not encumbered by a complex and extensive framework which is beyond our needs we just need the spline extensions to the xlib look in xfig it has two types of spline algorithms and is relatively simple xfig is available from export lcs mit edu in contrib r fixes xfig patches xfig tar z brian v smith bvsmith lbl gov lawrence berkeley laboratory i don t speak for lbl they don t pay me enough for that
comp.windows.x	re honors degrees do they mean anything i hear george bush remember him will receive an honors degree from some kuwaiti university for contributing to certain kuwaiti interests not too long ago do you think it would add much to his resume
comp.windows.x	re converting contents of x window to color postscript in article apr jwminhh hanse de wieck jwminhh hanse de jan wieck writes mbheprg problem with inews gateway file raju gurung writes jeff haferman haferman icaen uiowa edu wrote can somebody point me to source code for dumping the contents of an x window into a color postscript file i have written an app which brings up an x window and i want at the click of the mouse to dump the window into a postscript file i use xwd and xwd ps to do it from within a program i use xwd id xxxxx where xxxxx is the window id obtained from xtwindow widget he asked for sources the portable bitmap tools from jef poskanzer jef well sf ca us include filters to do that and much more btw the x tools come as sources the sillyness of most vendors lets you stuck with binaries anyway have a look onto xgrab xgrabsc it does the imho best job for this including compression o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.windows.x	comp windows x getting more performance out of x faq archive name x faq speedups last modified how to maximize the performance of x monthly posting compiled by art mulder art cs ualberta ca more ram faster cpu s more disk space faster ethernet these are the standard responses you hear when you ask how to improve the performance of your workstation well more hardware isn t always an option and i wonder if more hardware is always even a necessity this faq list is a collection of suggestions and ideas from different people on the net on how you can the best possible performance from x windows on your workstation without purchasing more hardware performance is a highly subjective issue the individual user must balance speed versus features in order to come to a personal decision therefore this document can be be expected to contain many subjective opinions in and amongst the objective facts this document is specifically concerned with x there are of course many other factors that can affect the performance of a workstation however they are outside the scope of this document people seriously interested in the whole area of system performance might want to look at the o reilly nutshell handbook system performance tuning by mike loukides i m about of the way through reading it and it looks like a well written comprehensive treatment of system performance i m unaware of any other similar books ed table of contents introduction administrivia what about the other x faq window managers the x server which server locking the server into ram starting your server fonts about the resources file define your display properly clients a better clock for x a better terminal emulator for x tuning your client miscellaneous suggestions pretty pictures a quicker mouse programming thoughts say what other sources of information author notes changed since last issue new since last issue introduction administrivia this document is posted each month on or around the th to the usenet news groups comp windows x news answers and comp answers if you are reading a copy of this faq which is more than a few months old see the last modified date above you should probably locate the latest edition since the information may be outdated if you do not know how to get those newsgroups and or your site does not receive them and or this article has already expired you can retrieve this faq from an archive site there exist several usenet faq archive sites to find out more about them and how to access them please see the introduction to the news answers newsgroup posting in news answers the main faq archive is at rtfm mit edu this document can be found there in pub usenet news answers x faq speedups if you do not have access to anonymous ftp you can retrieve it by sending a mail message to mail server pit manager mit edu with the command send usenet news answers x faq speedups in the message body what about the other x faq david b lewis faq craft uunet uu net maintains the informative and well written comp windows x frequently asked questions document its focus is on general x information while this faq concentrates on performance the comp windows x faq does address the issue of speed but only with regards to the x server the gist of that topic seems to be use x r it is faster than r please see the x faq for complete details window managers there are a lot of window managers out there with lots of different features and abilities the choice of which to use is by necessity a balancing act between performance and useful features at this point most respondents have agreed upon twm as the best candidate for a speedy window manager a couple of generic tricks you can try to soup up your window manger is turning off unnecessary things like zooming and opaque move also if you lay out your windows in a tiled manner you reduce the amount of cpu power spent in raising and lowering overlapping windows joe english joe trystero art com i ve found that a good font for tiling is x aka misc fixed medium r normal c iso it is the biggest font i know of that i can use on my sun x screen and still get two column terminal windows side by side on the display with no overlap other font suggestions will be accepted the x server which server make sure that your server is a proper match for your hardware if you have a monochrome monitor use a monochrome x server on my monochrome sun i haven t noticed much difference between the xsun colour server and xsunmono however it was pointed out to me that xsunmono is about k smaller and therefore should contribute to less paging thanks to jonny farringdon j farringdon psychol ucl ac uk michael salmon michael salmon eos ericsson se how your server was compiled can also make a difference jeff law law schirf cs utah edu advises us that on a sun system x should be compiled with gcc version or with the unbundled sun compiler you can expect to get very large speedups in the server by not using the bundled sunos compiler i assume that similar results would occur if you used one of the other high quality commercial compilers on the market locking the server into ram has anyone tried hacking the x server so that it is locked into ram and does not get paged eg via a call to plock does this help performance at all i ve had one inquiry on this topic and a few pointers to the plock function call but no hard evidence from someone who s tried it i am not in a position to give it a try thanks to eric c claeys ecc eperm att com danny backx db sunbim be juan d martin juando cnm us es starting your server joe english joe trystero art com if you start up a lot of clients in your xsession or whatever sleep for a second or two after launching each one after i changed my xclients script to do this logging in actually took less time we have a heavily loaded system without much core though this sounds crazy but i have confirmed that it works warner losh imp solbourne com provided me with a good explanation of why this works which i have summarized here when you start up an x server it takes a huge amount of time to start accepting connections a lot of initialization is done by the server when it starts this process touches a large number of pages any other process running at the same time would fight the server for use of the cpu and more importantly memory if you put a sleep in there you give the server a chance to get itself sorted out before the clients start up similarly there is also a lot of initialization whenever an x client program starts toolkits registering widgets resources being fetched programs initializing state and databases and so forth all this activity is typically memory intensive once this initialization is done the process has reached a steady state the memory usage typically settles down to using only a few pages by using sleeps to stagger the launching of your clients in your xinitrc you avoid them fighting each other for your workstation s limited resources this is most definitely a your mileage may vary situation as there are so many variables to be considered available ram local swap space load average number of users on your system which clients you are starting etc currently in my xinitrc i have a situation like sleep exec xclock sleep exec xbiff sleep exec xterm sleep exec xterm i ve experimented with sleep exec xclock sleep exec xbiff sleep exec xterm sleep exec xterm i ve even tried sleep exec start x clients script and then in start x clients script i had sleep exec xclock sleep exec xbiff sleep exec xterm sleep exec xterm the idea with this last one was to make sure that xinit had completely finished processing my xinitrc and had settled down into a steady state before the sleep expired and all my clients were launched all of these yielded fairly comparable results and so i just stuck with my current setup for its simplicity you will probably have to experiment a bit to find a setup which suits you fonts loading fonts takes time and ram if you minimize the number of fonts your applications use you ll get speed increases in load up time one simple strategy is to choose a small number of fonts one small one large one roman whatever suits you and configure all your clients or at least all your heavily used clients to use only those few fonts client programs should start up quicker if their font is already loaded into the server this will also conserve server resources since fewer fonts will be loaded by the server farrell mckay fbm ptcburp ptcbu oz au joe english joe trystero art com eg my main xterm font is x so i also have twm set up to use x in all it s menus and icons etc twm s default font is x since i don t normally use x i ve eliminated one font from my server oliver jones oj roadrunner pictel com keep fonts local to the workstation rather than loading them over nfs if you will make extensive use of r scalable fonts use a font server about the resources file keep your xresources xdefaults file small saves ram and saves on server startup time joe english joe trystero art com one suggestion in your xdefaults xresources file try putting only the minimum number of resources that you want to have available to all of your applications for example reversevideo true then separate your resources into individual client specific resource files for example home lib app defaults in your login file set the environment variable xuserfilesearchpath setenv xuserfilesearchpath home lib app defaults n the comp windows x frequently asked questions faq contains an excellent explanation of how these environment variables work ed so when xterm launches it loads its resources from app defaults xterm xdvi finds them in app defaults xdvi and so on and so forth note that not all clients follow the same xxxxx resource file naming pattern you can check in your system app defaults directory often usr x r lib x app defaults to find the proper name and then name your personal resource files with the same name this is all documented in the xt specification pg thanks to kevin samborn samborn mtkgc com michael urban urban cobra jpl nasa gov and mike long mikel ee cornell edu kevin is willing mail his setup files to inquirers this method of organizing your personal resources has the following benefits easier to maintain more usable fewer resources are stored in the x server in the resource manager property as a side benefit your server may start fractionally quicker since it doesn t have to load all your resources applications only process their own resources never have to sort through all of your resources to find the ones that affect them it also has drawbacks the application that you are interested in has to load an additional file every time it starts up this doesn t seem to make that much of a performance difference and you might consider this a huge boon to usability if you are modifying an application s resource database you just need to re run the application without having to xrdb again xrdb will by default run your xdefaults file through cpp when your resources are split out into multiple resource files and then loaded by the individual client programs they will not watch out for this i had c style comments in my xdefaults file which cpp stripped out when i switched to this method of distributed resource files i spent several frustrating days trying to figure out why my clients were not finding their resources xt did not provide any error message when it encountered the c style comments in the resource files it simply silently aborted processing the resource file the loss of preprocessing which can be very handy e g ifdef color is enough to cause some people to dismiss this method of resource management you may also run into some clients which break the rules for example neither emacs nor xvt will find their resources if they are anywhere other than in xdefaults when starting up a client on a machine that does not share files with the machine where your resources are stored your client will not find its resources loading all your resources into the server will guarantee that all of your clients will always find their resources casey leedom casey gauss llnl gov a possible compromise suggestion that i have and am planning on trying is to put resources for all my heavily used clients eg xterm into my xdefaults file and to use the separate resources files method for clients that i seldom use define your display properly client programs are often executed on the same machine as the server in that situation rather than setting your display environment variable to hostname where hostname is the name of your workstation you should set your display variable to unix or by doing this you access optimized routines that know that the server is on the same machine and use a shared memory method of transferring requests thanks to patrick j horgan pjh ras amdahl com see the display names section of the x man page for further explanation of how to properly set your display name i don t think it s stock mit but at least data general and hp have libraries that are smart enough to use local communication even when the display isn t set specially rob sartin opensi sartin uunet uu net jody goldberg jody algorithmics com sent me an xlib patch to change stock r to use local communication even if display is not properly set i don t want to get in the business of distributing or trying to juggle non mit patches and so have elected not to include it here hopefully mit will apply this minor lines patch themselves in the meantime if you want to try it yourself email jody ed clients if you only have a few megabytes of ram then you should think carefully about the number of programs you are running think also about the kind of programs you are running for example is there a smaller clock program than xclock unfortunately i haven t really noticed that programs advertise how large they are so the onus is on us to do the research and spread the word suggestions on better alternatives to the some of the standard clients eg xclock xterm xbiff are welcome ed i ve received some contradictory advice from people on the subject of x client programs some advocate the use of programs that are strictly xlib based since xt xaw and other toolkits are rather large others warn us that other applications which you are using may have already loaded up one or more of these shared libraries in this case using a non xt for example client program may actually increase the amount of ram consumed the upshot of all this seems to be don t mix toolkits that is try and use just athena clients or just xview clients or just motif clients etc if you use more than one then you re dragging in more than one toolkit library know your environment and think carefully about which client programs would work best together in that environment thanks to rob sartin opensi sartin uunet uu net duncan sinclair sinclair dcs gla ac uk sinclair uk ac gla dcs a better clock for x xcuckoo suggested by duncan sinclair sinclair dcs gla ac uk available on export lcs mit edu xcuckoo displays a clock in the title bar of another program saves screen real estate mclock suggested by der mouse mouse lightning mcrcim mcgill edu available larry mcrcim mcgill edu in x mclock shar non xt based extensively configurable it can be made to look very much like mit oclock or mostly like xclock purely by changing resources of course the ultimate clock one that consumes no resources and takes up no screen real estate is the one that hangs on your wall a better terminal emulator for x from the readme file distributed with xterm abandon all hope ye who enter here this is undoubtedly the most ugly program in the distribution ugly maybe but at my site it s still the most used i suspect that xterm is one of the most used clients at many if not most sites laziness isn t there a better terminal emulator available see below if you must use xterm you can try reducing the number of savelines to reduce memory usage oliver jones oj roadrunner pictel com jonny farringdon j farringdon psychol ucl ac uk xvt suggested by richard hesketh rlh ukc ac uk available export lcs mit edu in contrib xvt tar z if you don t need all the esoteric features of xterm then get hold of xvt it was written here just to save swap space as xterm is rather a hog this was written as a partial clone of xterm you don t have to rename your resources as xvt pretends to be xterm in it s current version you cannot bind keys as you can in xterm i ve heard that there are versions of xvt with this feature but i ve not found any yet update march i recently had a few email conversations with brian warkentin brian warkentine eng sun com regarding xvt he questions whether xvt really is at all faster than xterm for instance xvt may initialize slightly faster but compare scrolling speed try this quickie benchmark bin time dd if etc termcap bs and see which program can scroll faster also while xterm may be slightly larger in ram requirements we don t have any hard numbers here does anyone else shared libraries and shared text segments mean that xterm s paging requirements are not that major as an experiment he ripped out all the tek stuff from xterm but it made little difference since if you never use it it never gets brought into memory so here we stand with some conflicting reports on the validity of xvt over xterm in summary caveat emptor your mileage may vary if you can provide some hard data i d like to see it specifically how much ram each occupies how much swap each needs relative speed of each mterm suggested by der mouse mouse lightning mcrcim mcgill edu available larry mcrcim mcgill edu in x mterm src mterm ball o wax i also have my own terminal emulator its major lack is scrollback but some people like it anyway tuning your client suggestions on how you can tune your client programs to work faster from scott barman scott asd com comes a suggestion regarding motif text field widgets i noticed that during data entry into motif text field widgets i was getting a slight lag in response to some keystrokes particularly the initial one in the field examining the what was going on with xscope i found it it seems that when the resource xmnblinkrate is non zero and the focus is on a text field widget or even just a text widget the i beam cursor will blink every time the cursor appears or disappears in those widgets the widget code is making a request to the server copyarea the user can stop this by setting the resource xmnblinkrate to it is not noticeable on a mhz sparc but it does make a little difference on a slower system this specific suggestion can probably be applied in general to lots of areas consider your heavily used clients are there any minor embellishments that can be turned off and thereby save on server requests miscellaneous suggestions pretty pictures don t use large bitmaps gif s etc as root window backgrounds the more complicated your root window bitmap the slower the server is at redrawing your screen when you reposition windows or redraw etc these take up ram and cpu power i work on a sun sparc and i m conscious of performance issues i can t comprehend it when i see people with a mb sun running xphoon as their root window i ll let someone else figure out how much ram would be occupied by having a full screen root image on a colour workstation if you re anything like me you need all the screen real estate that you can get for clients and so rarely see the root window anyway thanks to qiang alex zhao azhao cs arizona edu for reminding me of this one ed a quicker mouse using xset you can adjust how fast your pointer moves on the screen when you move your mouse i use xset m in my xinitrc file which lets me send my pointer across the screen with just a flick of the wrist see the xset man page for further ideas and information hint sometimes you may want to slow down your mouse tracking for fine work to cover my options i have placed a number of different mouse setting commands into a menu in my window manager e g for twm menu mouse settings mouse settings f title very fast xset m normal fast xset m system default un accelerated xset m default glacial xset m programming thoughts joe english joe trystero art com to speed up applications that you re developing there are tons of things you can do some that stick out for motif programs don t set xmfontlist resources for individual buttons labels lists et al use the defaultfontlist or labelfontlist or whatever resource of the highest level manager widget again stick to as few fonts as possible better yet don t use motif at all it s an absolute pig don t create and destroy widgets on the fly try to reuse them this will avoid many problems with buggy toolkits too use a line width of in gcs on some servers this makes a huge difference compress and collapse multiple expose events this can make the difference between a fast application and a completely unusable one francois staes frans kiwi uia ac be just a small remark i once heard that using a better malloc function would greatly increase performance of xt based applications since they use malloc heavily they suggested trying out the gnuy malloc but i didn t find the time yet i did some tests on small programs just doing malloc and free and the differences were indeed very noticeable somewhat times faster any confirmation on this from anyone ed andre beck andre beck irs inf tu dresden de unnecessary noexpose events most people use xcopyarea xcopyplane as fastest blit routines but they forget to reset graphics exposures in the gc used for the blits this will cause a noexpose event every blit that in most cases only puts load onto the connection and forces the client to run through it s event loop again and again thousands of xchangegc requests this gfx context switching is also seen in most handcoded x apps where only one or few gcs are created and then heavily changed again and again xt uses a definitely better mechanism by caching and sharing a lot of gcs with all needed parameters this will remove the load of subsequent xchangegc requests from the connection by moving it toward the client startup phase say what some contributors proposed ideas that seem right off the wall at first david b lewis by day dbl osf org by night david craft uunet uu net how about this swap displays with someone else run all your programs on the other machine and display locally the other user runs off your machine onto the other display goal reduce context switches in the same operation between client and server i m not in a situation where i can easily try this but i have received the following confirmation michael salmon michael salmon eos ericsson se i regularly run programs on other machines and i notice a big difference i try to run on a machine where i will reduce net usage and usually with nice to reduce the impact of my intrusion this helps a lot on my poor little ss with only mb it was essential when i only had mb casey leedom casey gauss llnl gov the x server and the client are competing for the same cpu as your server when you run it on the same machine not really a major problem except that the x client and the server are in absolute synchronicity and are context thrashing timothy h panton thp westhawk uucp firstly it relies on the fact that most cpu s are mostly idle x s cpu usage is bursty so the chances of you and your teammate doing something cpu intensive at the same time is small if they are not then you get twice the cpu memory available for your action the second factor is that context switches are expensive using cpu s halves them you pay a price due to the overhead of going over the network but this is offset in most cases by the improved buffering of a network typically k vs k for a pipe allowing even fewer context switches other sources of information volume in o reilly s x window system series x window system administrator s guide is a book all x administrator s should read adrian nye adrian ora com a lot more tips on performance are in the paper improving x application performance by chris d peterson and sharon chang in issue of the x resource an earlier version of this paper appeared in the xhibition conference proceedings this paper is absolutely essential reading for x programmers author notes this list is currently maintained by art mulder art cs ualberta ca suggestions corrections or submission for inclusion in this list are gladly accepted layout suggestions and comments spelling mistak s too are also welcome currently i have listed all contributors of the various comments and suggestions if you do not want to be credited please tell me speedup x faq is copyright c by arthur e mulder you may copy this document in whole or in part as long as you don t try to make money off it or pretend that you wrote it art mulder art cs ualberta ca do not be conformed to this world department of computing science but be transformed by the renewal university of alberta edmonton canada of your mind romans
comp.windows.x	re app defaults files hello when starting bx if you recieve an error message saying cannot load app defaults file check your xapplresdir environment variable and then put the file builderxcessory this is the app defaults file for bx in the directory specified by the xuserfilesearchpath environment variable if you don t have an xuserfilesearchpath environment variable then set xuserfilesearchpath to be the directory where the builderxcessory file is you can do this using the setenv command under csh note that the name ends in ad so you will have to set xuserfilesearchpath to bx n ad to get the app defaults to load correctly to make sure the the app defaults file can be read by all the users make sure that a copy of or a link to the app defaults file exists in usr lib x app defaults or usr openwin lib app defaults depending on how your system is set up once you have taken care of this set the systemdirectory resource to be the directory in which you have installed bx for example let s say i ve installed bx in t then my system directory resource should be set like this systemdirectory t builderxcessory thanks ics tech support
comp.windows.x	re xcopyplane question i am trying to use xcopyplane to copy a single plane from a depth pixmap to a depth pixmap everytime i try this i see absolutely nothing displayed i know there is data in the depth pixmap becuase i have checked by doing an xcopyarea to the screen i have been successful getting xcopyplane to work if i use two pixmaps of depth is there a problem with what i am trying to do could someone please scan my code segment and let me know where i am going wrong i have created a xmdrawingarea widget called canvas w id xtwindow canvas display xtdisplay canvas screen defaultscreen display pixmap xcreatepixmap display rootwindow display screen w width w height defaultdepth display screen pixmap xcreatepixmap display rootwindow display screen w width w height w gc xcreategc display w id null w gc xcreategc display pixmap null code to read xwd image into pixmap is omitted have you set the foreground and background colors in w gc to something other than and the whitepixel and blackpixel macros on your server may not return values suitable for depth drawables copy one plane into the depth pixmap xcopyplane display pixmap pixmap w gc w width w height are you sure that the fifth plane of the data isn t all the same you could have different pixel values in the image but the fifth plane x might all be the same value using the depth pixmap as the clipmask copy it to the screen values foreground fg color values clip x origin values clip y origin values clip mask pixmap mask gcforeground gcclipmask xchangegc display w gc mask values xfillrectangle display w id w gc w width w height if you just want to see the plane of data and want better performance don t use clipmasks just use pixmap as the stipple in a stippled rectangle fill many servers are very stupid about handling complex clip lists and turn a bitmap clip region into hundreds and hundreds of little clipping rectangles and clips every drawing primitive against every one of these little triangles actually i must also ask the faq s most popular reason why graphics don t show up do you wait for an expose event before drawing your rectangle other info x r patchlevel motif sun sparc running sunos thanks in advance nancie p marin net nancie neko css gov ensco inc mail pineda ct melbourne fl fax kenneth whaley kubota pacific computer inc email whaley kpc com walsh avenue santa clara ca
comp.windows.x	re ms windows vs motif gui design differences was re future of unix in article ik apr sneaker ctt bellcore com ik sneaker ctt bellcore com ik su yoo writes aab andy burgess aab cichlid com writes aab in apr texhrc uucp pyeatt texaco com larry d pyeatt writes aab some deleted if you look closely at motif you will see that it is just ms windows with more eye pleasing color and texture the only real difference is that an ms application window can contain other toplevel children while a motif application window launches its children out onto the desktop aab to those of you familiar with both guis is this correct my experience aab with x makes me think that this msw behavior is easily duplicated aab with x but i don t know msw another important difference is that msw doesn t have any window that handle sophisticated geometry management like xmform also i believe that in windows x you re limited to k of resources windows menus icons etc imho this whole discussion named motif looks like ms windogs is totally stupid the only thing remotely influenced here can be the motif window manager that features an arrangement of buttons and menus somewhat similiar to this of the ms w windowmanaging agent however its name is but mwm is only a small part of motif in fact mwm and motif can work without each other and if one doesn t like mwms outfit for some reason he switches to another windowmanager all this doesn t influence motif which is a toolkit of widgets to write applications and this toolkit is imho uncomparable to ms w because it is much more wellorganized and features alot of goodies more than the ms w interface you cannot say a porsche looks like a vw k fer only because they have the wheel and the gear at the same position motif and ms w are complete different worlds only one element of the motif world has some gear and wheel at the same position as ms w o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.windows.x	x version of whois has an x version of whois been written out there if so where can i ftp it from thanks jesse w asher varco pruden buildings poplar ave suite memphis tn internet jessea vpbuild vp com uucp vpbuild jessea
comp.windows.x	gui study do users want to build solutions let me point out that both gui based word processors and text based formatters both have a language one happens to be mouse and action based and the other symbol based true but that s beside the point this is a fact about an abstract model of what the gui users are doing not about what they actually are doing this abstract model is only apparent from the perpective of a programmer of the system nb some users may see it too but only when they put aside the work at hand and start thinking like a programmer i m not saying that the programmer s perspective is evil or stunted after all that s what i do too i am saying that ui designers must carefully distinguish between the user programmer conceptual models and they must ultimately serve the user of the system not the builder of the system i don t recall the actual stats but something like in people can be categorized as a symbol manipulator it would be interesting to know more about the meaning and basis for this claim at any rate i don t think this is evidence that of users think like programmers bankers financial analysts structural engineers these are all people whose work you could characterize as primarily symbol manipulation but what they do is not programming and programming is not required to do what they do to restate my previous point yes users want to build their own solutions no they do not want to do programming to accomplish this
comp.windows.x	re is xlib thread safe in article aa alex lcs mit edu gildea expo lcs mit edu stephen gildea writes no the r xlib is not thread safe but we are working on it see my article in the x resource issue consortium members will have a multi threaded version soon and it will be part of r there is a multi threaded xlib version written do an archie search for mt xlib host export lcs mit edu location contrib directory drwxr xr x jul mt xlib location contrib mt xlib file rw r r jan mt xlib xhib ps z file rw r r jan mt xlib tar z location contrib mt xlib file rw r r jul mt xlib xhib ps z file rw r r jul mt xlib tar z et al eric overhead without any fuss the stars were going out the nine billion names of god yes you re very smart shut up in the princess bride
comp.windows.x	system file in tmp what is the directory x unix for in tmp when i start x it is created by the system this directory wasn t created by root and it contains an empty file x that is owned by me for a lot of au music ftp sounds sdsu edu then cat file au dev audio ub library catalog telnet bison acsu buffalo edu when in doubt ask xarchie xgopher or xwais
comp.windows.x	how do i change the text cursor in xterm i have just finished building x r on a running interactive unix sysvr and i am having a problem with xterm on any font larger that x it messes up characters that are types the cursor seems to be too large or splits into a reverse video outline block which changes when the pointer is moved into the window i am trying to use monospaced fonts not p fonts is there any way of changing the appearence of the block cursor is an xterm thanks john f skoda windows nt os for the s electronic learning facilitators inc c cobol for the st century bethesda md use ada unix and other socially dsc jfs imc med navy mil unacceptable systems dsc jfs imc med navy mil and before you flame i m an expos fan need i say more with disclaimer package
comp.windows.x	xwd i am trying to run xwd on a sun sparcstation ipx with sunos and openwindows i am using the motif window manager i have been unsuccessful in using xwd under motif i get the following when doing xwd out xwd dmp x error of failed request baddrawable invalid pixmap or window parameter major opcode of failed request x getimage resource id in failed request x serial number of failed request current serial number in output stream does anyone have any insight to this
comp.windows.x	window manager i currently use a window manager called ctwm which is very similar to hp s vuewm i e it has multiple workspaces is there a motif based window manager that has this same feature and is not a memory pig like vue mike michael l coe a mind is a terrible thing laboratory of applied logic university of idaho coe leopard cs uidaho edu coe snake cs uidaho edu
comp.windows.x	re x r and open look in article apr aedc vax af mil bonds aedc vax af mil writes i am reposting this because i am not sure my first post ever made it out i have built and installed x r on my sparcstation my aim is to run the mit x server but retain the openlook window manager i am sure this is not uncommon but i just want to make sure that i change and or delete everything that i need to for instance i can start xdm in rc local but how do i get rid of xnews the openlook window manager source is available on the mit contrib tapes or from export lcs mit edu i would suggest building this too rather than using the version from openwindows it is olwm v regards richard gooch
comp.windows.x	problems using graphic context with athena widgets i am creating a graphics program using the athena widgets i use xlib routines to install a custom graphics contex by obtaining the display and window variables with the xtwindowofobject and xtdisplayofobject the object was one of the sub widgets the problem occurs that whenever a button is pressed or a menu is selected the graphic contex reverts to the orginal one i tried moving the allocation of the graphic context before the allocation of the buttons but nothing changed i am preforming all of this manipulation before calling xtappmainloop thank you for any help leslie donaldson donaldlf cs rose hulman edu donaldlf nextwork rose hulman edu
comp.windows.x	re c toolkit directions in article imp hellnet org devil loki hellnet org gil tene writes i am trying to figure out the current c toolkit directions more simply i d like to know which c toolkit to bet on for use in a new long term project i have the same problem i have looked at motif wwl interviews gina and a few variations on the above i ve also done a cursory examination of rogue wave s view h i like view h s abstractions best of all of the toolkits i mentioned but the resulting code looks little like motif and i have little confidence that this software will catch on or otherwise result in significant longevity for my code gina allows you to write code which looks a great deal like motif and also makes interesting use of inheritance but the resulting code is almost too motif like and is certainly not significantly less verbose than equivalent c code interviews looks promising but i haven t found a free version with motif support and i m not confident how widely interviews with motif support will be adopted and what if any specific motif support will be available over time the other libraries produce code which is less motif like but which does not make sufficient use of the features of c to simplify my coding task at this point my inclination is to write my motif manipulation routines in c and invoke those routines from my c code using simple abstractions suited to my specific task later if osf or some credible standards setting body comes up with a c interface to motif i will change to that it does me no goo to write in c if my choice of interfaces leaves me with code which leaves me tied to an abstraction which is not consistent with the industry directions it s better to take a standard if inferior solution for now than to go with a slgihtly superior approach which will leave me with both useless code and useless skills a few years from now views h is the only library i d consider right now but in our environment we d end up spending nearly to use it and i can t justify it when it s likely to cause short term productivity decreases as we learn the new abstraction and is unlikely to be a sufficiently long lived solution for us to reap the benefits at the high end of the j curve brad brad daniels if money can t buy happiness daniels neosoft com i guess i ll have to rent it i don t work for neosoft and weird al yenkovic don t speak for my employer
comp.windows.x	fresco status i ve been hearing rumblings about fresco and it sounds like it may be what i m looking for but how far is it from release or at least some kind of availability how similar is it to interviews if i code to interviews will my code work with fresco how about motif i ve heard some mention of versions of interviews which support motif will it be feasible to use motif with fresco any information would be much appreciated brad brad daniels if money can t buy happiness daniels neosoft com i guess i ll have to rent it i don t work for neosoft and weird al yenkovic don t speak for my employer
comp.windows.x	re iconize a running application in article c ifj f u csn org doomer teal csn org john dumais writes i ve been trying to figure a way to programmatically iconize an application running under a motif window manager i have tried several approaches includeing sending events to the application s border window but to no avail anyone done this before i tend to use xiconifywindow to achieve this effect have you tried that brad brad daniels if money can t buy happiness daniels neosoft com i guess i ll have to rent it i don t work for neosoft and weird al yenkovic don t speak for my employer
comp.windows.x	re iconize a running application it doesnt matter what window mgr you running under you can use the x routine xiconfiywindow display w screen number display display window w int screen number as in xiconifywindow xtdisplay w xtwindow w does that perform what you want in article c ifj f u csn org doomer teal csn org john dumais writes newsgroups comp windows x path shearson com uupsi psinntp uunet haven umd edu darwin sura net wupost zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu csn teal csn org doomer from doomer teal csn org john dumais sender news csn org news nntp posting host teal csn org organization colorado supernet inc x newsreader tin pl date thu apr gmt lines i ve been trying to figure a way to programmatically iconize an application running under a motif window manager i have tried several approaches includeing sending events to the application s border window but to no avail anyone done this before thanks doomer joe bore life is short code hard jbore shearson com uunet shearson com jbore beeper
comp.windows.x	compiling clients on a sun ipx i m trying to set up an ipx for another group i copied all the x stuff that i compiled on my which runs sunos using gcc and most things run just fine however i did find a couple of bugs and when i try to recompile those clients on the ipx which runs i get ld undefined symbol xshapequeryextension xshapecombinemask i know that i can include libxext and get rid of those messages but i can t figure out why i get them on the ipx and not on the any ideas ned danieley ndd sunbar mc duke edu basic arrhythmia laboratory box duke university medical center durham nc or
comp.windows.x	re motif vs athena etc berry durian citr uq oz au andrew berry writes my impression is that most people use motif because their os vendor supplies it with x sunos users excluded and because it is similar in look and feel to ms windows and os pm personally i also prefer the look and feel of motif no flames please just an opinion seeing as motif has been adopted by sun ibm hp can t remeber the other members in the recent announcement i m sure you ll see it on virtually every workstation ie sun ibm hp and dec must make up the vast majority of all hardware i am also concerned by this prevalence of motif particularly from the point of view of writing and obtaining free software as the linux and bsd communities grow however i think that motif will lose some of its grip at least in the non commercial marketplace ports of motif to both bsd and linux are available for a fee of about this is cost recovery for the person who bought the rights to redistribute the activity in both the bsd and linux news groups pertaining to motif has been high i just wonder if this will also cause a divergence between commercial and non commercial software ie you will only get free software using athena or openlook widget sets and only get commercial software using the motif widget sets i can t see why if just about every workstation will come with motif by default and you can buy it for under for the free unix platforms i can t see this causing major problems side note all the x based code i am writing and will distribute freely when completed is based on motif because from a programmatic and also look and feel point of view i like it the best no flames on this one please bambi david j hughes bambi bu oz au senior network programmer comms development operation australia
comp.windows.x	sunview x no doubt this is an old question but i didn t find the answer in the faqs i could find so here goes i have a sunview application that i want to convert to x openlook motiv whatever i remember hearing quite some time ago that there are tools to accomplish this task a is that so b are they public domain c any good i e d advantages over reimplementing the interface myself thanks alex
comp.windows.x	mouseless operation in ol v wm mouseless operation is documented in the man pages for olwm and olvwm however i can t get it to work in either i have this line in my xdefaults openwindows keyboardcommands full that should do it i haven t rebound the keys am i missing something d
comp.windows.x	x server multi screen hi xperts some simple questions for you i ve seen a lot of different terms which seem to mean the same thing who can give an exact definition what these terms mean multi screen multi headed multi display x server zaphod mode is there a limit how many screens displays a single server can handle in an articel a read something about an upper limit of how is the capability called if i want to move the cursor from one screen display to another any hints welcome thanks rainer rainer hochreiter telephone elin energieanwendung gesmbh telefax penzingerstr a wien austria europe e mail rainer elin co at
comp.windows.x	motif mailing list is there any interest hello motif world a few days ago i posted my announcement for an update of motif i got several requests to send the bindings per e mail and i know of several people who have been using motif and there are probably a number of people i am not aware of who are also using motif my question is how many people out there would be interested to join a mailing list where people can ask questions about motif swap stories and give new ideas about new directions and improvements for the bindings this would benefit the user community as well as give me more insight in what people would like to see added to motif motif is still very much a voluntary project and this way i can make a list of priorities in what order things should be added or changed if you re interested in joining such a mailing list please take the time to reply to this message and tell me so when there is sufficient interest say about people or more a mailing list will be set up at my site and i will post the announcement of the newly created list to this and other newsgroups ronald van loon in theory there is no difference rvloon cv ruu nl between theory and practice dcv group utrecht the netherlands in practice however there is
comp.windows.x	creating bit windows on bit display how greetings i am using an x server that provides visuals pseudocolor bit truecolor bit and directcolor bit a problem occurs when i try to create a window with a visual that is different from the visual of the parent which uses the default visual which is tc in the xlib reference guide from o reilly one can read in the section about xcteatewindow something like in the current implementation of x when using a visual other than the parent s be sure to create or find a suitable colourmap which is to be used in the window attributes when creating or else a badmatch occurs this warning strangely enough is only mentioned in the newer editions of the x r guides however even if i pass along a suitable colourmap i still get a badmatch when i create a window with a non default visual the code looks like this cut here and you ll destroy your crt window create bit window on truecolour display dpy width height display dpy int width height window win xvisualinfo vinfo xsetwindowattributes attr fprintf stderr opening bit window n if xmatchvisualinfo dpy defaultscreen dpy pseudocolor vinfo fprintf stderr your display can t handle bit pseudocolor n exit fprintf stderr using visual x n vinfo visual visualid cmap xcreatecolormap dpy defaultrootwindow dpy vinfo visual allocnone xsync dpy false xinstallcolormap dpy cmap ommision of this line gives same result attr colormap cmap win xcreatewindow dpy defaultrootwindow dpy width height copyfromparent border width depth inputoutput class vinfo visual visual cwcolormap attr return win cut here and you ll destroy your crt executing this piece of code results in a badmatch error anybody who knows why if so please drop me a line take care bram stolk stolk fwi uva nl
comp.windows.x	xwd gif conversions hello anyone know of any source code i can get to either create window dumps in gif format or convert an xwd x window dump file into a gif really could be any format i can manipulate in dos i e pcx bmp etc later shane bm cleveland freenet edu uucp rutgers devon gizmonic csthomas god bless those pagans h simpson
comp.windows.x	german keyboard x r and sparc i have a sparc with a german type keyboard has anybody a patch for x r thanks in advance heinz josef claes email claes tigger turbo uni essen de
comp.windows.x	re printing ascii and above in article c g ce is noose ecn purdue edu achar ecn purdue edu lakshminarayana achar writes could some tell me how to print characters over ascii on a laser printer after being thrilled on being able to create them on my screen my enthusiasm has somewhat died down due to this setback well more information is required what computer are you using what operating system are you using what kind of printer are you using a postscript b hp pcl etc harvard ucbvax uwvax astroatc ftms brown or uu psi com ftms brown rutgers internet brown wi extrel com or ftms brown astroatc uucp cs wisc edu
comp.windows.x	xwindows always opaque hi i wonder if it is possible for a parent window to paint over the area of its childs if it is not then how could it be possible to implement a rubberband across multiple xwindows to select the objects that are displayed one in each window hauke
comp.windows.x	available memory to the xserver how to get the actual size hello everybody i have a little question due to more features pex drag drop many applications when linked with for example motif instead motif need more memory in the xserver x terminals only have limited memory normally no swapping possible so my question is there a possibility to determine via x protocol calls the size of free memory available to the xserver so one can determine for example whether to start a pex application with the css on client side or on server side when there is enough memory please reply via e mail i ll summarize sincerly matthias matthias pfuetzner work home darmstadt frg zgdv wilhelminenstrasse lichtenbergstrasse pfuetzner igd fhg de pfuetzner zgdvda uucp keith packard said r is different from r that s why we changed the release number
comp.windows.x	xswarm enhancement has anybody the xswarm enhacemened to use it with more than one wasp please e mail me because i don t read this group any longer thanks in advance klaus klaus singvogel e mail kssingvo immd informatik uni erlangen de
comp.windows.x	changing olwm icons i was wondering if it s possible to change the window icons olwm uses for things like xterm most of the defaults are pretty lame any answer or where i can find one would be most appreciated thanks matt clark
comp.windows.x	re fresco status issue of the x resource the published proceedings of the th annual x technical conference has an paper by mark linton and chuck price titled building distributed interfaces with fresco the summary describes fresco formerly known as xc as an x consortium effort without doing a complete review of the paper i ll just mention the goals as stated in one section of the article the effort has the goal of providing the next generation toolkit with functionality beyond the xt toolkit or xlib features they want in fresco include lightweight objects such as interviews glyphs structured graphics resolution independence natural c programming interface edit in place embedding distributed user interface components multithreading this by no means captures the complete content of the paper the conclusions sections mentions that a rough draft specification should be available in early with no schedule paper presented in jan for a complete sample implementation i am not affiliated with any of the people or places mentioned above brian dealy it not knowing where it s at dealy kong gsfc nasa gov that s important it s knowing uunet dftsrv kong dealy where it s not at b dylan brian dealy it not knowing where it s at dealy kong gsfc nasa gov that s important it s knowing uunet dftsrv kong dealy where it s not at b dylan
comp.windows.x	re xwindows always opaque in article hess swt hess swt informatik uni hamburg de hauke hess writes hi i wonder if it is possible for a parent window to paint over the area of its childs if it is not then how could it be possible to implement a rubberband across multiple xwindows to select the objects that are displayed one in each window hauke if you specify the rootwindow when you are creating your gc you may use xlib to draw over multiple windows i have an application that does something similar for rubber banding curs move xcreatefontcursor disp data xc crosshair geom vals foreground blck pixl grey dark geom vals plane mask allplanes geom vals line width geom vals function gxxor geom vals subwindow mode includeinferiors evnt mask gcforeground gcplanemask gclinewidth gcfunction gcsubwindowmode geom gcon xcreategc disp data root iden evnt mask geom vals later i can move the rubber band or bands using the following logic void tselect move bands int delt xloc int delt yloc stuff deleted xdrawrectangle disp data root iden geom gcon sele pntr rootx sele pntr rooty sele pntr xlnth sele pntr ylnth undraw old one sele pntr papax delt xloc sele pntr papay delt yloc sele pntr rootx delt xloc sele pntr rooty delt yloc xdrawrectangle disp data root iden geom gcon sele pntr rootx sele pntr rooty sele pntr xlnth sele pntr ylnth draw new one more stuff deleted hope this helps brian dealy it not knowing where it s at dealy kong gsfc nasa gov that s important it s knowing uunet dftsrv kong dealy where it s not at b dylan brian dealy it not knowing where it s at dealy kong gsfc nasa gov that s important it s knowing uunet dftsrv kong dealy where it s not at b dylan
comp.windows.x	re motif vs athena etc in article c k ny azj kirk bu oz au bambi kirk bu oz au david j hughes writes i am also concerned by this prevalence of motif particularly from the point of view of writing and obtaining free software as the linux and bsd communities grow however i think that motif will lose some of its grip at least in the non commercial marketplace ports of motif to both bsd and linux are available for a fee of about this is cost recovery for the person who bought the rights to redistribute the activity in both the bsd and linux news groups pertaining to motif has been high i just wonder if this will also cause a divergence between commercial and non commercial software ie you will only get free software using athena or openlook widget sets and only get commercial software using the motif widget sets i can t see why if just about every workstation will come with motif by default and you can buy it for under for the free unix platforms i can t see this causing major problems i think you will find that the active linux and bsd communities are populated by enthusiasts who would object to paying any money for software otherwise they would probably have gone for a commercial unix an important factor in the linux community is that source code is always available this is probably similar in the bsd community however i m not really involved there many people using linux like to stay at the cutting bleeding edge ie when kernel patches c library or compiler patches come out people like to rebuild their entire systems the prime requirement for all linux software is that it is available under a gnu style public license hence linux software uses either the athena widgets or xview individuals may write software requiring motif but i doubt it is widely adopted regards richard gooch
comp.windows.x	re expose events please excuse my previous posting it was appended to this thread by accident robert
comp.windows.x	re expose events i posted about this a while ago but without code excerpts noone was able to help me the problem is that main win win is doing fine but when i create detail win win it does not receive it s initial expose events until main win win receives an event here are the relevent calls main win win xcreatesimplewindow mydisplay defaultrootwindow mydisplay myhint x myhint y myhint width myhint height main win line thick fg bg xsetstandardproperties mydisplay main win win main win text main win text none argv argc myhint main win gc xcreategc mydisplay main win win xmapraised mydisplay detail win win xmapsubwindows mydisplay main win win the event mask for main win is pposition psize structurenotifymask exposuremask keypressmask enterwindowmask leavewindowmask the flags are pposition psize i then create detail win win with the following calls hints has new values detail win win xcreatesimplewindow mydisplay defaultrootwindow mydisplay myhint x myhint y myhint width myhint height detail win line thick fg bg xsetstandardproperties mydisplay main win win detail win text detail win text none argv argc myhint detail win gc xcreategc mydisplay detail win win xmapraised mydisplay detail win win event mask and flags are identical to main win s flags and event mask if anybody has any idea why the initial expose events of detail win win are not received until main win win receives an event i d love to hear from them other that that everything works great so there must be some detail i m overseeing thanks for any tips robert rgasch nl oracle com
comp.windows.x	delayed expose events i posted about this a while ago but without code excerpts noone was able to help me the problem is that main win win is doing fine but when i create detail win win it does not receive it s initial expose events until main win win receives an event here are the relevent calls main win win xcreatesimplewindow mydisplay defaultrootwindow mydisplay myhint x myhint y myhint width myhint height main win line thick fg bg xsetstandardproperties mydisplay main win win main win text main win text none argv argc myhint main win gc xcreategc mydisplay main win win xmapraised mydisplay detail win win xmapsubwindows mydisplay main win win the event mask for main win is pposition psize structurenotifymask exposuremask keypressmask enterwindowmask leavewindowmask the flags are pposition psize i then create detail win win with the following calls hints has new values detail win win xcreatesimplewindow mydisplay defaultrootwindow mydisplay myhint x myhint y myhint width myhint height detail win line thick fg bg xsetstandardproperties mydisplay main win win detail win text detail win text none argv argc myhint detail win gc xcreategc mydisplay detail win win xmapraised mydisplay detail win win event mask and flags are identical to main win s flags and event mask if anybody has any idea why the initial expose events of detail win win are not received until main win win receives an event i d love to hear from them other that that everything works great so there must be some detail i m overseeing thanks for any tips robert rgasch nl oracle com ps the same message was accidentally appended to the expose events thread sorry for any confusion caused
comp.windows.x	x r and gateway hi i just got myself a gateway dx v and trying to configure x r for it has anyone done this before more specifically i need a correct xconfig file entry that is set up for my graphics card and monitor i have a color crystalscan fs monitor and a vesa local bus ati ultra pro with mb vram video card any help will be extremely appreciated thanks in advance please send replies to christy alex qc ca christy
comp.windows.x	cursor size problems apologies for those who have read this before but no one has solved this one yet so i m posting again sorry i m having problems creating a cursor bigger than x i m using motif x r running hp ux all the functions return valid results but no cursor appears when the bitmap is bigger than the aforementioned size i tried using the following code unsigned int w h xquerybestcursor xtdisplay programarea xtwindow programarea w h to return the nearest size to what i require however it returns and as the width and height respectively what am i doing wrong and if not how can i get round the problem thanks in advance mike
comp.windows.x	re need pd x y plot package steve steve frysinger of blue feather farm spf cbnewsl cb att com writes steve folks steve i m looking for a public domain x y plotting package for x steve i need basic capabilities axes labels log and linear c steve it s hard to imagine that someone has not put such a thing steve together so i m hoping to avoid reinventing the wheel steve thanks for any leads steve steve frysinger your might take a look a plplot version c actually beta v can be found anonymous ftp from hagar ph utexas edu in the pub plplot directory mark mark stucky email united technologies research center mark ardnt res utc com east hartford ct or mbs rcinet res utc com or mbs utrc res utc com from the readme file of version c this is the plplot distribution plplot is a scientific plotting package for many systems small micro and large super alike despite its small size and quickness it has enough power to satisfy most users including standard x y plots semilog plots log log plots contour plots d plots mesh plots bar charts and pie charts multiple graphs of the same or different sizes may be placed on a single page with multiple lines in each graph different line styles widths and colors are supported a virtually infinite number of distinct area fill patterns may be used there are almost characters in the extended character set this includes four different fonts the greek alphabet and a host of mathematical musical and other symbols the fonts can be scaled to any size for various effects many different output device drivers are available system dependent including a portable metafile format and renderer the plplot package is freely distributable but not in the public domain the plplot source code except header files and those files explicitly granting permission may not be used in a commercial software package without consent of the authors you are allowed and encouraged to include the plplot object library and header files in a commercial package provided that it is explicitly and prominently stated that the plplot library is freely available and the full copyrights on the plplot package be displayed somewhere in the documentation for the package we welcome suggestions on how to improve this code especially in the form of user contributed enhancements or bug fixes if plplot is used in any published papers please include an acknowledgment or citation of our work which will help us to continue improving plplot also please remember that as plplot is not a commercial product we cannot be expected to offer the kind of support that a commercial product may there is great interest in extending plplot and fixing bugs but the principal authors can only afford to work on it part time improvements will necessarily focus on those which help us get our work done plplot is written in c enabling it to run on many platforms practically without modification fortran programs may use it transparently stub routines are provided to handle the c fortran interface without any modification of the user program c programs are required to include the header file plplot h see the documentation for more details the main documentation for plplot is in the doc directory in the form of several tex files please consult this for additional information latex plotdoc unfortunately documentation tends to lag actual improvements to the code so don t be surprised if some known features are not explained there consult changes log to see a list of recent changes at present plplot is known to work on the following systems unix sunos a ix hp ux unicos dg ux ultrix sysv linux amiga exec ms dos os next for more information on how to get or use plplot on your system see appendices to the plplot manual system specific documentation in the appropriate sys system directory to become a subscriber to the plplot mailing list send a request to plplot request dino ph utexas edu credits plplot is the result of the effort of many people so it is impractical to list all the contributors those currently supporting and otherwise responsible for the package in its present form include maurice lebrun please send all comments flames patches etc to me i am responsible for all the plplot kernel development as well as most of the work on the metafile xwindow xterm postscript tektronix and amiga drivers email mjl fusion ph utexas edu usmail dr maurice lebrun institute for fusion studies university of texas austin tx geoff furnish please send questions regarding the ms dos and os drivers to geoff email furnish fusion ph utexas edu usmail geoff furnish institute for fusion studies university of texas austin tx tony richardson creator of plplot b please send questions regarding installation of plplot on the next to tony email amr egr duke edu usmail tony richardson tony richardson electrical engineering chapel hill road apt d duke university durham nc durham nc ph ph
comp.windows.x	macx color problem i have a peculiar color problem with macx apple s macintosh x server i d like to know if others have seen the same problem it s happened with the current version and with version when some types of client windows are displayed parts of the windows are in the wrong color if the window is moved slightly forcing the server to repaint it it is repainted in the correct colors it doesn t happen for xterm windows but has happened for graphic windows and with some motif clients stan kerr computing communications services office u of illinois urbana phone email stankerr uiuc edu
comp.windows.x	info wanted x security holes hi has anyone out there compile a list of x security holes if yes will you please send me a copy of this if this is a wrong group please point me to a right one thanks btw the list doesn t have to contain the info how to use the holes instead i need the info of how to detect the holes how to seal the holes and how to monitor the activities if possible any info is welcomed thanks eric grad student obviousness is always the enemy of jui lin lu eric correctness bertrand russell jlu cs umr edu univ of missouri rolla
comp.windows.x	need help with athena text widget i want to create a single line text widget for entering a small amount of text i want it to be of fixed width but have a horizontal scrollbar that scrolls automatically when the user types in order to keep the insertion point visible in trying to do this i have two problems the addition of the horizontal scrollbar does not make the text widget taller but instead it seems to cover part of the text the scrollbar does not scroll automatically as the user types in text in order to keep the insertion point visible any help is appreciated mike name michael strawbridge tele usmail national institute of standards arpa straw cam nist gov and technology uucp uunet cme durer straw rm b bldg gaithersburg md
comp.windows.x	widget for displaying images before i try to teach myself how to write a widget and perhaps re invent the wheel is there a pd widget that displays for example an bit grey level image in the same fashion that the athena plotter widget can be used to display a plot robert m cothren phd rim bme ri ccf org department of biomedical engineering the cleveland clinic foundation voice cleveland ohio fax
comp.windows.x	re dec pixmap size in article igd fhg de haase igd fhg de helmut haase goebel writes i ve got a problem concerning the maximum size of x pixmaps in decwindows i am using a decstation running ultrix v rev system and uws v rev decwindows our color display has x pixels on other hardware hp sgi i am able to allocate much larger pixmaps did anyone have similar problems before or does onyone know how i can configre my system to allow for larger pixmaps any suggestins are welcome please send mail to haase igd fhg de dec does this only for their px and pxg servers known as d accelerators this boards have local offscreen memory which is limited and slow to handle thus they set this limit o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.windows.x	circular motif widgets will there be any support for round or circular widgets in motif s next release i d love to have a circular knob widget which could be used instead of a slider cheers dm
comp.windows.x	re x r and gateway in article daily planet concordia ca christy cs concordia ca christy writes hi i just got myself a gateway dx v and trying to configure x r for it has anyone done this before more specifically i need a correct xconfig file entry that is set up for my graphics card and monitor i have a color crystalscan fs monitor and a vesa local bus ati ultra pro with mb vram video card thanks in advance didn t your operating system come with x sysv usually does as far as i know you d do best to contact the people from whom you bought ths os if you re running linux or something similar good luck please send replies to christy alex qc ca christy a voice of reason in the midst of liberalnet mike chapman a higher lifeform trapped in a human body aka fourdee political correctness is the tool of the mentally disadvantaged i will not raise taxes on the middle class unknown
comp.windows.x	re cursor size problems in article c ky l k compsci liverpool ac uk mbell csc liv ac uk mike bell writes apologies for those who have read this before but no one has solved this one yet so i m posting again sorry i m having problems creating a cursor bigger than x i m using motif x r running hp ux all the functions return valid results but no cursor appears when the bitmap is bigger than the aforementioned size i tried using the following code unsigned int w h xquerybestcursor xtdisplay programarea xtwindow programarea w h to return the nearest size to what i require however it returns and as the width and height respectively what am i doing wrong and if not how can i get round the problem does the workstation you re using have hardware cursor support or does the server generate a software cursor you can generally tell the difference just by using it if the cursor blinks a lot when there s screen activity it s probably a software cursor if it has a hardware cursor i think you re probably battling a bug in hp s x server i m not familiar with any hardware cursor chips that display cursors greater than x it s quite possible that the server is just echoing your preferred cursor size without actually checking it i vaguely recall that very old mit server revisions did just that in reality you re probably stuck with a x maximum size cursor regardless of what the server returns joel
comp.windows.x	virtual mouse in open look under x is the virtual mouse simulation in ol v wm x available under x r i ve been told i m setting the right resource yet it continues not to work i m running olvwm or olwm on a sun x r pl d
comp.windows.x	need xman source where can i get xman source i would rather get xman for an hp but source will do
comp.windows.x	why do i need xrdb m when xdefaults unchanged i m having an x resource problem using brian wilson s wscrawl a wonderful interactive conferencing program by the way i m running openwindows on a sparc under os i have the following defaults in my xdefaults file among many others wscrawl telepointername kevin wscrawl syncscrollbars true wscrawl continuoustelepointer true wscrawl showpointercoordinates false wscrawl background lightblue wscrawl swindow foreground yellow wscrawl draw area frame foreground blue wscrawl keyboardfocuspolicy pointer naturally i exited the server and restarted it after adding those lines to xdefaults if i run the following from a cmdtool pwd my home dir xrdb m xdefaults and then start up wscrawl then all those defaults are used properly wonderful yes except that i can t get them to be operative except by manually invoking the afore mentioned xrdb command if i try xrdb xdefaults the defaults won t take so i tried to change the xrdb call in my xinitrc file from xrdb home xdefaults to xrdb m home xdefaults no go so i tried adding in xrdb m home kbw xdefaults at the beginning or end of my openwin init file still no go any notions what gives thanks for the help kevin weinrich computer sciences corp kbw helios ath epa gov
comp.windows.x	key definitions in emacs x hi i use emacs and i want to customize my keyboard better when i set up stuff in my emacs with a keymap and define keys i can only access certain of the keys on my x terminal s keyboard i can t get e g f home end pgup pgdn they all seem to have either the same or no keycode i have a feeling this can t be fixed in emacs itself but that i need to do some xmodmap stuff can someone help me by the way i ve checked the x faq and posted a similar message to gnu emacs help to no response currently i have the following in my emacs file inside a cond string match xterm getenv term done by aj i don t know what most of this does defvar xterm map make sparse keymap keymap for xterm special keys define key esc map xterm prefix fset xterm prefix xterm map keys f to f define key xterm map z goto line f define key xterm map z what line f define key xterm map z rmail f define key xterm map z replace string f define key xterm map z end of line f define key xterm map z kill line f define key xterm map z yank f define key xterm map z beginning of line f define key xterm map z end of line f define key xterm map z scroll down f define key xterm map z scroll up f keys f up down etc can t get the keys define key xterm map z set mark command andrew jaffe ajaffe oddjob uchicago edu dep t of astronomy and astrophysics u chicago s ellis ave chicago il fax
comp.windows.x	re property problems in article wsmart tay mcs dundee ac uk bill smart writes to get the number back the other client does appatom xinternatom display applicationwindow true xgetwindowproperty display defaultrootwindow display appatom false xa window return type return format nitems return bar return place and appears to get back something valid just not the right number it always seems to return the same number regardless of the window number stored in the property return place is probably incorrect it should be a pointer not an integer xgetwindowproperty allocates memory copies the data there and returns a pointer to the memory you should free the memory when you re done ken lee klee synoptics com
comp.windows.x	looking for xt and xaw i want to compile xdvi and later perhaps emacs on a dec ultrix machine with x installed unfortunately xt and xaw libs and headers are missing how can i get them without having to compile the whole mit distribution pleasy reply by email to viola yukawa uni muenster de thanks in advance
comp.windows.x	problem with libxmu on sunos and gcc i am using x r patch with the r sunos patch posted on export i did optionally apply the patch olit libxmu compiles fine when i try to use it with clients i e bmtoa and twm i get errors i can not figure out what is wrong gcc fpcc struct return o twm gram o lex o deftwmrc o add window o gc o list o twm o parse o menus o events o resize o util o version o iconmgr o cursor o icons o o r usr wgep x r sos lib ld run path ld run path l lib xmu lxmu l lib xt l extensions lib l lib x l extensions lib lxext l extensions lib lxext l lib x lx l usr wgep x r sos lib lsocket lnsl ld warning file extensions lib libxext so attempted multiple inclusion of file libxext so undefined first referenced symbol in file xtappsetwarningmsghandler lib xmu libxmu so xtscreendatabase lib xmu libxmu so xtdisplaystringconversionwarning lib xmu libxmu so xterrormsg lib xmu libxmu so xtrealloc lib xmu libxmu so xtismanaged lib xmu libxmu so xtmalloc lib xmu libxmu so xtgetapplicationresources lib xmu libxmu so xtownselection lib xmu libxmu so xtgetconstraintresourcelist lib xmu libxmu so xtcalloc lib xmu libxmu so xtname lib xmu libxmu so xtstringconversionwarning lib xmu libxmu so xtappsettypeconverter lib xmu libxmu so xtdisplaytoapplicationcontext lib xmu libxmu so xtgetresourcelist lib xmu libxmu so xtfree lib xmu libxmu so xtdestroywidget lib xmu libxmu so xtgetvalues lib xmu libxmu so xtwarningmsg lib xmu libxmu so xttranslatecoords lib xmu libxmu so xtcvtstringtofont lib xmu libxmu so xtwidgettoapplicationcontext lib xmu libxmu so xtwarning lib xmu libxmu so xtcreatewidget lib xmu libxmu so xtwindowofobject lib xmu libxmu so xtvasetvalues lib xmu libxmu so xtappwarningmsg lib xmu libxmu so xtgetselectionvalue lib xmu libxmu so xtresolvepathname lib xmu libxmu so ld fatal symbol referencing errors no output written to twm error code douglas l acker western geophysical exploration products a division of western atlas international inc a litton dresser company internet acker wg waii com voice
comp.windows.x	help event propagation the following problem is really bugging me and i would appreciate any help i create two windows w child to root with event mask buttonpressmask keypressmask w child to w with do not propagate mask buttonpressmask keypressmask keypress events in w are discarded but buttonpress events fall through to w with subwindow set to w fyi i m using xnews olvwm am i doing something fundamentally wrong here n
comp.windows.x	re motif vs athena etc in article apr nrao edu rgooch rp csiro au richard gooch writes really involved there many people using linux like to stay at the cutting bleeding edge ie when kernel patches c library or compiler patches come out people like to rebuild their entire systems the prime requirement for all linux software is that it is available under a gnu style public license hence linux software uses either the athena widgets or xview individuals may write software requiring motif but i doubt it is widely adopted shameless plug the xaw d widgets make athena a much nicer alternative than the stock mit athena code mike michael j o connor internet mjo fmsrl srl ford com ford motor company opeo uucp fmsrl opeo mjo rotunda bldg phone dearborn mi fax
comp.windows.x	re sunview x no doubt this is an old question but i didn t find the answer in the faqs i could find so here goes i have a sunview application that i want to convert to x openlook motiv whatever i remember hearing quite some time ago that there are tools to accomplish this task a is that so b are they public domain c any good i e d advantages over reimplementing the interface myself the simple answer is for you to obtain use xview to do this xview is a one to one replacement for sunview it should already be provided with you sun running openwindows it is also free available as part of the contrib side of the mit x r release patrick l mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking a person unnecessarily should not be considered lazarus long a capital crime for a first offense that is from the notebooks of lazarus long
comp.windows.x	re motif vs athena etc in article c k ny azj kirk bu oz au bambi kirk bu oz au david j hughes writes berry durian citr uq oz au andrew berry writes ports of motif to both bsd and linux are available for a fee of about this is cost recovery for the person who bought the rights to redistribute the activity in both the bsd and linux news groups pertaining to motif has been high i just wonder if this will also cause a divergence between commercial and non commercial software ie you will only get free software using athena or openlook widget sets and only get commercial software using the motif widget sets i can t see why if just about every workstation will come with motif by default and you can buy it for under for the free unix platforms i can t see this causing major problems let me add another of my concerns yes i can buy a port of motif for cheap but i cannot get the source for cheap hence i am limited to using whatever x libraries the motif port was compiled against at least with older versions of motif i have been told that motif can be used with any x but i have not seen it myself currently i have x r running on eight different unix platforms of which only three came with motif on those three i am unable to use the x r libraries to build motif clients because i get link errors between the vendor supplied port of motif and my x r i anticipate having this same problem when x r becomes available the result is that i cannot build motif clients that rely on x r since i do not have motif compiled under x r true i could buy another port of motif but that sort of ruins the whole idea of free doesn t it cheers tom mcconnell tom mcconnell internet tmcconne sedona intel com intel corp c phone w chandler blvd the opinions expressed are my own no one in chandler az their right mind would claim them
comp.windows.x	image processing packages under x i am looking for a package that implements standard image processing functions reading writing from standard formats clipping zoom etc implemented under x both public domain and private packages are of interest the particular application area i have in mind is medical imaging but a package meant for a more general context would be acceptable please reply to me i will summarize on the net if there is general interest prateek mishra mishra sbcs sunysb edu
comp.windows.x	re xcopyplane question in article aa neko css gov nancie neko css gov nancie p marin writes i am trying to use xcopyplane to copy a single plane from a depth pixmap to a depth pixmap everytime i try this i see absolutely nothing displayed i know there is data in the depth pixmap becuase i have checked by doing an xcopyarea to the screen the code fragment looks reasonable but is your logic valid just because something appears in an bit deep pixmap doesn t mean every bit plane contains data did you try each plane ken lee klee synoptics com
comp.windows.x	re changing dpy max request size in article c zlo wa world std com oj world std com oliver jones writes in article netnews upenn edu mcclenne dingdong cis upenn edu nennelccm nodrog writes does anyone out there know how to change the maximum request size for a server it is ordinarily set to the highest value the underlying os can yes and you don t want to change this value if you re running image type applications steve o o hsteve hydra unm edu hsteve carina unm edu just say no to vms
comp.windows.x	re interface to access separate appl in article aa expo lcs mit edu dbohdal jaguar ess harris com writes dear xperts here s my problem i am designing several related x applications each one is a separate executable and i d like to build a single control window that would allow the user to access each application instead of having to locate the correct icon the control window would contain a button for each application and by pressing it the application s main window would appear i would also like to use the application s button as a color status indicator has anyone done this or have any good ideas because these are all separate executables this seems like a communications nightmare to me but maybe i m wrong i d appreciate any ideas i m using x r and motif thanks dbohdal jaguar ess harris com i can think of two different methods that you could try use fork and execv use the system called in your program i m assuming that you re running under the unix os of course steve o o hsteve hydra unm edu hsteve carina unm edu just say no to vms
comp.windows.x	opinions on galaxy we are currently evaluating gui builders initially for motif but with a wish to be flexible portable we have been through the popular names uimx teleuse xvt etc and have been very impressed with what we have seen of galaxy from visix i have spoken to current users from a list supplied by visix happy users as you would expect and seen favourable comments on the net however since it is fairly expensive to get an evaluation license from visix i would like to query the net for any negative experiences with galaxy did anybody evaluate them and prefer another tool or use galaxy and regret it or find any mis features advthanksance phil phil m gray voice macdonald dettwiler fax commerce parkway richmond bc canada v v j pmg mda ca uunet van bc mdavcr pmg
comp.windows.x	keyboard focussing i have two motif widgets i would like to control one of them via the keyboard and the other with the mouse i set the keyboard focus on the first widget but as soon as i click the mouse on the second one i lose the keyboard focus on the first one could some kind soul show me how to do this thanks dm dev hollywood acsc com
comp.windows.x	re key definitions in emacs x in article apr midway uchicago edu ajaffe oddjob uchicago edu andrew jaffe writes i use emacs and i want to customize my keyboard better when i set up stuff in my emacs with a keymap and define keys i can only access certain of the keys on my x terminal s keyboard i can t get e g f home end pgup pgdn they all seem to have either the same or no keycode i have a feeling this can t be fixed in emacs itself but that i need to do some xmodmap stuff can someone help me it is actually worse than you think i have the same problem and have given up emacs has an internal table somewhere which defines what keys it will accept and this table is system dependent i use a sun from my hp and cannot get shift pageup to work xmodmap is not sufficient or at least i haven t worked out how to make it work however i can get ordinary pageup and shift cursorright to work and i do some customised things with them note that the emacs on my hp has no problem and i am using exactly the same xmodmap and emacs configuration nick maclaren university of cambridge computer laboratory new museums site pembroke street cambridge cb qg england email nmm cus cam ac uk tel fax
comp.windows.x	re problem with libxmu on sunos and gcc in article qmt i io ep wg waii com dla se wg waii com doug acker writes i am using x r patch with the r sunos patch posted on export i did optionally apply the patch olit libxmu compiles fine when i try to use it with clients i e bmtoa and twm i get errors i can not figure out what is wrong gcc fpcc struct return o twm gram o lex o deftwmrc o add window o gc o list o twm o parse o menus o events o resize o util o version o iconmgr o cursor o icons o o r usr wgep x r sos lib ld run path ld run path l lib xmu lxmu l lib xt l extensions lib l lib x l extensions lib lxext l extensions lib lxext l lib x lx l usr wgep x r sos lib lsocket lnsl ld warning file extensions lib libxext so attempted multiple inclusion of file libxext so undefined first referenced symbol in file xtwindowofobject lib xmu libxmu so ld fatal symbol referencing errors no output written to twm error code the problem was that sunpost ld was not defined douglas l acker western geophysical exploration products a division of western atlas international inc a litton dresser company internet acker wg waii com voice
comp.windows.x	xterm build problem in solaris continuing on my build problems i got stuck here build xterm gcc fpcc struct return o xterm main o input o charproc o cursor o util o tabs o screen o scrollbar o button o tekproc o misc o vtprstbl o tekprstbl o data o menu o o r usr wgep x r sos lib ld run path ld run path l lib xaw lxaw l lib xmu lxmu l lib xt lxt l extensions lib lxext l lib x lx l usr wgep x r sos lib lsocket lnsl ltermcap undefined first referenced symbol in file index usr ucblib libtermcap a termcap o rindex usr ucblib libtermcap a termcap o ld fatal symbol referencing errors no output written to xterm error code make fatal error command failed for target xterm any clues for help douglas l acker western geophysical exploration products a division of western atlas international inc a litton dresser company internet acker wg waii com voice
comp.windows.x	dynamic changing of the title bar i am looking for a program i can insert into some code that will allow the title bar to be changed on a window dynamicly if one already is out there i would appreciate a location so i don t have to create this from scratch thanks in advance bob hosid dloslv xerox
comp.windows.x	mit r on sun with rasterops tc colorboard is it possible to run an mit r based xserver on a sun with a rasterops tc colorboard bit board i have the xsun patches for supporting sun s bit frame buffers but does the rasterops appear as if its a cgtwelve or something else i know nothing about the rasterops other than we might be buying one to put in an ipx cheers mark
comp.windows.x	re svr x binary dists was re rfd to create comp unix sys univel in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu der mouse wrote you seem to be a little confused the socialistic hackers who yell about proprietary software are hardly enamored of motif which is just as objectionable to that mindset as news is if i might wear my socialistic hacker hat for a moment i tar news and motif with the same brush and that brush is not technical begging everyone s pardon i was not slamming motif nor was i necessarily plugging flaming the two i was responding to the sweet blithe statement in rick digibd from rick digibd digibd com rick richardson rick this is one area where microsoft nt has a big advantage since rick they control the whole show there are no issues like this where rick licensees create incompatible defacto standards this happy statement shows a mindset that inventors and companies have when they are pleased with something that works and they believe that others will also be happy to use it i remember when sunview was hot stuff and am not by that statement endorsing sun and its products this is just my experience and when openwindows became hot stuff that was when i started hearing as mentioned before the socialistic masses that were bent on destroying anything that was deemed proprietary including openwindows i mentioned motif in the same breath because that is what sun has decided to turn its attention to not because i hate it mr richardson s position i believe is a healthy one and i am sure that the seething hackers will soon try to flame and destroy nt if it ever shows up wanting instead everything to be free and then complaining when there is no organized structure and there are no de facto standards it was just a vent for frustration brought on by prevailing winds mrs henne
comp.windows.x	c and c for os hi folks does anybody know for a good bit c c compiler for os that supports os api and microsoft windows maybe windows nt thanx n marovac sdsu
comp.windows.x	xrolo spacrc sunos audio could some one please send me or tell me where to ftp from the patches required for xrolo so that i can compile in the sparcstation phone dialing feature i am using sunos and therefore don t have multimedia libaudio h or multimedia audio device h and associated functions just in case our mail gateway only accepts msgs kb thanks in advance shash shash chatterjee email fwr bv fin af mil ec software phone lockheed fort worth company fax p o box mz ft worth tx
comp.windows.x	imake book review thanks for the many offers to review this book if you received a review copy please return it as soon as possible i had a system crash and lost the list of people i sent it to thanks adrian nye o reilly and associates adrian ora com
comp.windows.x	multi screen apps and window managers i am working on a project to provide an emergency management information system in keeping with more classic command and control type systems we are considering developing a dual screen monitor system in order to provide a status board on it s own monitor i have a number of x level questions regarding this we are devloping on unix systems using x motif platform will be predominantly sun s probably with ports to rs as well i am assuming the standard dual monitor systems are configured such that we are talking about one x display and multiple screens and not multiple x displays given this is changing input focus from one screen to the other as simple as tracking your mouse from one screen to the other there s nothing special that needs to be done to shift focus between screens do i have to run separate window managers on the separate screens or are there multiscreen window managers out there what are they who sells them is a multi screen window manager the only way i can grab a window frame and move a window from one screen to the next is there any way for the application to transparently see multiple screens as one logical x y plane or does the hardware only provide for each screen to start at any thoughts on the difficulties involved with designing a system capable of using either multiple screens or a single screen perhaps running a virtual window manager to simulate multiple screens instead i am assuming that this is not a major issue that i can rely on providing config files which will specify for each configuration the screen placement of each window in the application any thoughts or suggestions from past experience are more than welcome jo pelkey phone battelle pacific northwest labs fax mail stop k email je pelkey pnl gov p o box richland wa
comp.windows.x	ideal operating system was death blow to unix g day windows nt is a step forward but not by much i guess for dos users who think multi tasking is really neat add puke here and are overjoyed to be able to use more than k of memory its a major improvement for windows users its more like an upgrade with facilities most unix users take for granted most of windows users only use pcs for text processing or running rd party applications anyway so the operating system features are not even a real issue my ideal operating system binary compatible across all plaforms it should recognize binaries and configure on the fly so i don t have to have bin mac bin dos bin dec bin sun bin hp etc multi cpu so i can use the cpus on my pc and w s and mac and transputers and dsps i don t know a single site which has gone for a single vendor i am not going to trade in mflops per h transputer or ultra fast fft on dsp chips note nt runs on symmetric multi cpu systems built in portable gui graphics tools you can call drawbutton or drawline and it does the same thing no matter what platform or display it should also translate graphics commands on the fly so i can use pc graphics s w on my workstation and x software on my pc i think guis are not just nice to have but essential configurable front end so you can make it look like unix or dos or nt or os and run shell scripts or command bat files object oriented so i can program easily under it and not have to re invent the wheel if the networking is not up to scratch or my application needs to access source object code on the fly in other words it should have some ai capability that and a tight clean kernel so you can actually understand it anyone know of something like this adios ata mail dr ata etemadi blackett laboratory space and atmospheric physics group imperial college of science technology and medicine internet arpanet earn bitnet atae spva ph ic ac uk or ata c mssl ucl ac uk span spva atae or msslc atae
comp.windows.x	please ignore ideal operating system was death blow to unix whoops wrong group soooooooooooooooorry folks
comp.windows.x	re trouble compiling x r on sunos in article apr head cfa harvard edu dmm head cfa harvard edu david meleedy writes i ve been trying to compile x r patchlevel on a sun sparc ipx using sunos and gcc the problem occurs during the initial make world when it gets up to compiling the standard x clients it can t seem to find some of the libraries right now we highly suspect the program ld which was updated for yip we had the same problem the only fix we found was to link static some of the clients btw we used cc francisco j ballesteros a k a nemo email nemo clip dia fi upm es org computer science clip lab phone campus montegancedo s n u p m boadilla del monte madrid spain o
comp.windows.x	re x server multi screen rainer sun eeam elin co at rainer hochreiter writes hi xperts some simple questions for you i ve seen a lot of different terms which seem to mean the same thing who can give an exact definition what these terms mean multi screen multi headed multi display x server zaphod mode is there a limit how many screens displays a single server can handle in an articel a read something about an upper limit of how is the capability called if i want to move the cursor from one screen display to another any hints welcome thanks rainer rainer hochreiter telephone elin energieanwendung gesmbh telefax penzingerstr a wien austria europe e mail rainer elin co at as to how many clients may be display on a server i believe the limit would be how much memory is available to your server or allocated by the server indecision is the key to timothy e neto flexibility you can t of b t s gadget widget works e mail god flight systems lab boeing comm aircraft my ideas not boeing s internet ten aw fsl ca boeing com
comp.windows.x	motif maling list hi all anyone knows of a motif mailing list i don t have access to network news and there is no longer a motif list at alfalfa com thanks joel joel reymont z code software corporation e mail joel z code com redwood hwy suit b san rafael ca
comp.windows.x	raster and text widgets view only xew version version of xew widgets is available at export lcs mit edu contrib xew tar z export lcs mit edu contrib xew readme for better details check the readme for extensive details you have to with xew ps z still haven t had time to update this one no new functionality has been added since version raster widget handles now expose events slightly more intelligently than before really had to do this when i added a simple program that uses x r athena porthole and panner widgets the program demo viewer c is very simple demonstration of panner porthole usage copied from editres actually markku savela savela tel vtt fi technical research centre of finland telecommunications laboratory otakaari b sf espoo finland
comp.windows.x	re xterm build problem in solaris dla se wg waii com doug acker writes continuing on my build problems i got stuck here build xterm gcc fpcc struct return o xterm main o input o charproc o cursor o util o tabs o screen o scrollbar o button o tekproc o misc o vtprstbl o tekprstbl o data o menu o o r usr wgep x r sos lib ld run path ld run path l lib xaw
comp.windows.x	re a question on window ids in article wnk aquifer geology uiuc edu wnk aquifer geology uiuc edu walter kreiling writes given a program running on a workstation with an x based window system how can one pop the window in which it is running to the top by window i mean the terminal window from which it was invoked one can t the application may not have been started from a terminal emulator if it was the terminal emulator may not still exist and if it does it may be in no condition to be pop ped to the top eg it may be iconified and even if you can it may not do what you want consider a virtual root window manager like tvtwm with the relevant window in a portion of the virtual desktop that s outside the real desktop some but not all x terminal emulators provide environment variables giving a window id even if such a thing is present in the environment it may not be what you want it may correspond to a window on a different server for example der mouse mouse mcrcim mcgill edu
comp.windows.x	re x server multi screen in article qlop sgp sun eeam elin co at rainer sun eeam elin co at rainer hochreiter writes i ve seen a lot of different terms which seem to mean the same thing who can give an exact definition what these terms mean multi screen multi headed multi display x server zaphod mode as applied to servers the first three are fuzzy terms multi headed tends to be used for any system with multiple monitors sometimes even multiple screens even if they re multiplexed onto the same monitor eg a sun with a cg display multi screen and multi display would if taken strictly mean different things but since the strict meaning of multi display would refer to a system with multiple keyboards and pointers when it s used it probably refers to the same thing multi screen would a system that provides multiple screens zaphod is a term applied to the way the mit server switches the pointer from one screen to another by sliding it off the side of the screen is there a limit how many screens displays a single server can handle in an articel a read something about an upper limit of there is a protocol limitation that restricts a given display to at most screens i know of no server that handles multiple displays on a single invocation unless possibly my kludges to the r server can be looked upon as such on a tcp based system there is necessarily a limit of displays per machine but this is not a limitation inherent to x what you read was most likely talking about a limit in some particular implementation probably the mit one if it claimed there was a limit of inherent to x the author of the article had no business writing about x der mouse mouse mcrcim mcgill edu
comp.windows.x	re creating bit windows on bit display how in article apr fwi uva nl stolk fwi uva nl bram writes i am using an x server that provides visuals pseudocolor bit truecolor bit and directcolor bit lucky dog a problem occurs when i try to create a window with a visual that is different from the visual of the parent which uses the default visual which is tc in the xlib reference guide from o reilly one can read in the section about xcteatewindow something like in the current implementation of x when using a visual other than the parent s be sure to create or find a suitable colourmap which is to be used in the window attributes when creating or else a badmatch occurs this warning strangely enough is only mentioned in the newer editions of the x r guides it applies with equal force to earlier versions presumably only recently did the author s decide it was important enough to mention the necessity it refers to has always been there but it s been implicit in the way createwindow requests default some attributes of the new window however even if i pass along a suitable colourmap i still get a badmatch when i create a window with a non default visual attr colormap cmap win xcreatewindow copyfromparent border width depth inputoutput class vinfo visual visual cwcolormap attr this is because the warning you read is incomplete you have to provide not only a colormap but also a border the default border is copyfromparent which is not valid when the window s depth doesn t match its parent s specify a border pixmap of the correct depth or a border pixel and the problem should go away there is another problem i can t find anything to indicate that copyfromparent makes any sense as the border width parameter to xcreatewindow your xlib implementation probably defines copyfromparent as zero to simplify the conversion to wire format so you are unwittingly asking for a border width of zero due to the xlib implementation not providing stricter type checking to be fair i m not entirely certain it s possible for xlib to catch this der mouse mouse mcrcim mcgill edu
comp.windows.x	re available memory to the xserver how to get the actual size in article igd fhg de pfuetz igd fhg de matthias pfuetzner writes is there a possibility to determine via x protocol calls the size of free memory available to the xserver no even if you could the answer could be out of date even before you get it even if you grab the server it could be taken up by buffering user actions you should just try to do whatever you want a badalloc error is your indication that insufficient server memory is available der mouse mouse mcrcim mcgill edu
comp.windows.x	re xwindows always opaque distribution comp please don t misuse newsgroup hierarchy names as distributions in article hess swt hess swt informatik uni hamburg de hauke hess writes i wonder if it is possible for a parent window to paint over the area of its childs yes but it s not an attribute of the window it s an attribute of the gc used to do the drawing set the subwindow mode to includeinferiors rather than the default clipbychildren der mouse mouse mcrcim mcgill edu
comp.windows.x	re german keyboard x r and sparc claes polaris heinz josef claes writes i have a sparc with a german type keyboard has anybody a patch for x r export lcs mit edu pub sunkbd tar z maf martin forssen maf dtek chalmers se or maf math chalmers se system administrator at math and dtek at chalmers univ of technology
comp.windows.x	searching for xgolf i recently found the file xgolf on a german ftp site reseq regent e technik tu muenchen de but unfortunately the shar file was incomplete and the author s email address given in the readme file markh saturn ee du edu does not work can anyone assist by giving the location of a full version of this or any other golf game for x game or a way of contacting the author please reply by email if you can help ade adrian savage university of bradford uk email a f savage bradford ac uk
comp.windows.x	re searching for xgolf the xgolf program was an april fool s joke sigh steve hite shite sinkhole unf edu
comp.windows.x	re macx color problem stan kerr writes when some types of client windows are displayed parts of the windows are in the wrong color if the window is moved slightly forcing the server to repaint it it is repainted in the correct colors it doesn t happen i have the exact same problem when running hewlett packard s microwave design system mds from an hp unix box and running macx sys normally mds draws a window with a deep blue backround but occasionally it becomes a light blue and all the text etc inside the window become washed out nearly invisible i thought that it was just something brain dead that i was doing or a subtle conflict with another app or init by slightly moving the window and forcing a re draw the colors get corrected harry wolfson wolfson ll mit edu
comp.windows.x	re x r and open look in article apr nrao edu rgooch rp csiro au richard gooch writes in article apr aedc vax af mil bonds aedc vax af mil writes i am reposting this because i am not sure my first post ever made it out i have built and installed x r on my sparcstation my aim is to run the mit x server but retain the openlook window manager i am sure this is not uncommon but i just want to make sure that i change and or delete everything that i need to for instance i can start xdm in rc local but how do i get rid of xnews the openlook window manager source is available on the mit contrib tapes or from export lcs mit edu i would suggest building this too rather than using the version from openwindows it is olwm v i would suggest skipping olwm and getting olvwm instead this version of the olwm window manager implements a virtual desktop that i find really handy even on large monitors this version is also available at export lcs mit edu contrib olvwm tar z the readme file also suggest getting the files in contrib xview in my case i built the x server first xview second then olvwm all of these were installed into usr x once i verified the server worked correctly i happily issued rm rf usr openwin using gcc to build all of the above resulted in a windowing system that is for all intents and purposes identical to openwindows and that is incredibly faster there is a bit of tweaking you will have to do if you want things to work exactly like openwindows but not much paul bash techware design bash tware com boulder co u s a
comp.windows.x	request need tvtwm sources with mods from r j caley hello way back in the mists of time i had a set of patches written by richard caley i believe to the standars distribution patch level which added regular expressions in the tvtwmrc file multiple icon regions squeezable icons and f deleteordestroy function i still have the patches however i can no longer find the sources to which they applied i d appreciate if some kind soul could send me a pointer to where i could find the sources has anyone updated the patches for r richard are you out there pretty please thanks in advance manoj
comp.windows.x	is tek quitting xterm activities i caught up a mailmessage from an ncd guy who stated that tek might be quitting it s x terminal activities and would be looking for an interested buyer since the source of this message is ncd this might only be nasty gossip can anyone say more about this dick ahold nv room ankersmidplein ck zaandam the netherlands eec dick heijne ccsds ahold nl tel fax
comp.windows.x	re xdm and solaris the xdm on solaris was broke since two weeks sun distributes a patched release which works fine supports etc shadow and all we have it up and running ever since and have not experienced any problems call your local sun rep dick ahold nv room ankersmidplein ck zaandam the netherlands eec dick heijne ccsds ahold nl tel fax
comp.windows.x	re xterm build problem in solaris dla se wg waii com doug acker writes continuing on my build problems i got stuck here build xterm gcc fpcc struct return o xterm main o input o charproc o cursor o util o tabs o screen o scrollbar o button o tekproc o misc o vtprstbl o tekprstbl o data o menu o o r usr wgep x r sos lib ld run path ld run path l lib xaw lxaw l lib xmu lxmu l lib xt lxt l extensions lib lxext l lib x lx l usr wgep x r sos lib lsocket lnsl ltermcap undefined first referenced symbol in file index usr ucblib libtermcap a termcap o rindex usr ucblib libtermcap a termcap o ld fatal symbol referencing errors no output written to xterm error code make fatal error command failed for target xterm any clues for help either add lucb lelf to the list or define index and rindex to strchr and strrchr respectively both use same args former are bsd latter are sysv ahold nv room ankersmidplein ck zaandam the netherlands eec dick heijne ccsds ahold nl tel fax
comp.windows.x	compiling on sun hi i have a piece of x code that compiles fine on pmax ul pmax mach as well as sun mach but whenever it compiles on sun it gives me undefined ld errors sin cos pow floor get wmshellwidgetclass get applicationshellwidgetclass the following libraries that i linked it to are lxaw lxmu lxt lxext lx the makefile is generated off an imake template can anyone give me pointers as to what i m missing out to compile on a sun thanx wilson
comp.windows.x	x color bitmap editor needed hi folks does anybody know where i can find the color bitmap editor around the public sites any information i do appreciate that c chang
comp.windows.x	re anyone have experience with visix galaxy in article c m r world std com grier world std com the political crony writes the title line says it the galaxy package was just recently announced and includes a gui builder and portable toolkit i m interested in any feedback from those who may have used it thus far we ve been using it for a year on unix sun and hp and windows platforms in my opinion it is the best toolkit on the market it supports a rich api to a high level ipc mechanism file system abstraction memory management command driven application development drawing geometry management and oh yeah open look motif ms windows and mac at the flip of a switch thanks jim grier grier world std com greg pasquariello grp unify com hobnobbing with the ancients unify corporation or uunet unify grp
comp.windows.x	is it just me or is this newsgroup dead i ve gotten very few posts on this group in the last couple days i recently added it to my feed list is it just me or is this group near death robert l mcmillin surf city software rlm helen surfcty com dude include std disclaimer h
comp.windows.x	re trouble compiling x r on sunos nemo aguirre dia fi upm es francisco j ballesteros writes the problem occurs during the initial make world when it gets up to compiling the standard x clients it can t seem to find some of the libraries right now we highly suspect the program ld which was updated for yip we had the same problem the only fix we found was to link static some of the clients btw we used cc or use a sunos ld bernhard
comp.windows.x	re xterm build problem in solaris on apr gmt dla se wg waii com doug acker said doug nntp posting host se wg waii com doug continuing on my build problems i got stuck here build xterm doug undefined first referenced doug symbol in file doug index usr ucblib libtermcap a termcap o doug rindex usr ucblib libtermcap a termcap o doug ld fatal symbol referencing errors no output written to xterm actually the problem is that you have to build with ld library path unset as well as ld run path douglas l acker western geophysical exploration products a division of western atlas international inc a litton dresser company internet acker wg waii com voice
comp.windows.x	re trouble compiling x r on sunos in article schneck physik tu muenchen de schneck physik tu muenchen de bernhard schneck writes nemo aguirre dia fi upm es francisco j ballesteros writes the problem occurs during the initial make world when it gets up to compiling the standard x clients it can t seem to find some of the libraries right now we highly suspect the program ld which was updated for yip we had the same problem the only fix we found was to link static some of the clients btw we used cc or use a sunos ld or read fixes and to the mit distribution this is a known problem just apply those fixes and set sunpost fcsld to yes and osteenyversion in mit config sun cf to in fix if you are running sunos and you apply sun s ld patch then you will need to edit your site def and add this line to the aftervendorcf section define sunpost fcsld yes in fix if you are running sunos change osteenyversion in mit config sun cf to have a value of in fix brief notes on what this patch fixes config make on sunos fails unless tree previously built in sean welch
comp.windows.x	re title for xterm in apr samba oit unc edu naoumov physics unc edu sergei naoumov writes hey guys i work on many stations and would like this name and current logname to be in a title of xterm when it s open and a machine name only when it s closed in other words i want host and logname to appear as a title of opened xterm and host when xterm is closed how can i do it thnsks in advance serge serge gluttony astro unc edu almost all window managers twm mwm olwm and their derivates support escape sequences for it for your purpose put following into your login if you re using csh or tcsh for sh you have to modify it if term xterm then echo logname host g host g endif note stands for esc in vi you can enter it by pressing ctrl v and the esc same for g it means ctrl g in vi press ctrl v and then ctrl g the first sequence puts the string into the title bar the second in the icon btw you can also put the current working directory in the title bar if you make an alias for cd alias cd cd echo logname host cwd g greetings thomas thomas wolfram thomas aeon in berlin de eantc tu berlin wolf prz tu berlin de
comp.windows.x	pointer feature hi i am trying to implement a pointer feature in xlib i have multiple windows and all can take input and show output simultaneously on all other displays i want to implement a pointer feature i would like to get the pointer to come up on all windows once i choose pointer in the menu and every one should be able to see it can you give me some hints as to how i should proceed replies will be greatly appreciated thank you prakash duvvuri cs odu edu
comp.windows.x	re x server multi screen from article apr eafs ca boeing com by ten eafs ca boeing com timothy e neto rainer sun eeam elin co at rainer hochreiter writes i ve seen a lot of different terms which seem to mean the same thing who can give an exact definition what these terms mean multi screen multi headed multi display x server zaphod mode is there a limit how many screens displays a single server can handle in an articel a read something about an upper limit of how is the capability called if i want to move the cursor from one screen display to another as to how many clients may be display on a server i believe the limit would be how much memory is available to your server or allocated by the server this all sounds suspiciously like my company might have something to do with this background first megatek has a series of framebuffers designed as x accelerators for the most part these are designed for sun sbus and sun and other vendor s vme systems that said megatek products support multi screen and or multi display on a sigle workstation most of our cards have a keyboard mouse port which can be used to provide additional displays for example say you hade a sparcstation with an sbus expansion chassis you could put in six frambuffers allowing a total of six screens in the system you could then attach from to keyboard mice allowing you to mix and match any combination of screens and displays you could have screen display screen displays screen displays or screen display and screen display basically any combination because of this we at megatek try to be very careful about the use of the words multi screen and multi display they are quite different in meaning and at least in x have exact definitions the reason i ramble like this is the mention of an upper limit if screens in a display as it so happens there s a define in the server that determines the most screens supported server include misc h maxscreens as released my mit this is as released by megatek this is as such the most screens supported by a single megatek display i e x server is if someone construed this to be a limitation of x i m sorry but clearly as pointed out so well by mr neto this is not the case we just did it here because nobody has ever asked us for more of course i could say buy all you want we ll support more rusty sanders megatek corp rgs megatek com or ucsd hplabs hp sdd ames scubed uunet
comp.windows.x	creating application contexts multiple times the subject does not describe the problem i am having very well please read on i am trying to write a function which creates an xtappcontext and a widget displays the widget for a while then destroys everything and returns the problem is that multiple calls to this function cause a variety of problems including depending on which calls i make to get rid of things core dump badpixmap x error widget not unmapped here is a simple c program i wrote to show the problem include x xlib h include xm xm h include xm pushb h void bla xtappcontext app display dis xopendisplay int junk widget top xtappinitialize app test null junk null null null widget box xtvacreatemanagedwidget blaaa xmpushbuttonwidgetclass top xmnheight xmnwidth null xtrealizewidget top same as xtappmainloop but with only xevents for int i i i xevent event xtappnextevent app event xtdispatchevent event what should i put here xtunrealizewidget top xtdestroywidget top xtdestroyapplicationcontext app xclosedisplay dis main for int i i i bla note that i rewrote xtappmainloop so that at a given time in this example after xevents the function will exit and return to the main program with this example i get the following error on about this is not consistent the th call to bla x error of failed request badpixmap invalid pixmap parameter major opcode of failed request x creategc resource id in failed request xe d serial number of failed request current serial number in output stream if i take out the xtunrealizewidget top line it just dumps core on the seconds call furthermore every time i call xtappinitialize other than the st time i get warning initializing resource lists twice warning initializing translation manager twice so finally my question is this what needs to be done in order to be able to call a function which creates an xtappcontext and widgets multiple times any help would be greatly appreciated please respond via email as i dont usually have time to read this group thanks very much davewood david rex wood davewood cs colorado edu university of colorado at boulder
comp.windows.x	compiling help i d like to compile x r on a sony nws running news c the x distribution has support for this config and the release notes say it has been tested on the machine but also in the release notes nothing from sony is listed under the supported servers what am i supposed to use for my r x server then how can the os be supported but not the hardware is there something in the r binaries that can be used as the r server these may seem like silly questions but i m really confused mike hopper acs virginia edu i will not raise taxes on the middle class unknown
comp.windows.x	re compiling help here s what i think have figured out all i need to do is install the r disitribution without the xserver like the sony cf file defines and all the new libraries utils etc will be installed and my old server from r will still work this will allow me to run xview and have x r up and running does the server interface remain the same with all changes made only to the libs another question is it likely that since sun is dropping ow support that the desktop utils like the file manager will be made public it would be nice if companies would make old code public for the benefit of those of us with smaller budgets mike hopper acs virginia edu i will not raise taxes on the middle class unknown
comp.windows.x	xterm cursor forgive me if this is a faq i have checked the list but i cant find it i have a problem with the cursor within xterm on mono not grayscale monitors the problem is that when i have an character application that displays input fields in reverse video the xterm text cursor gets lost on the edge of the input field the solution would appear to be to set the xterm cursor to a line rather than a block but how do you do this i can t find any means although various sources seem to indicate it can be done when the xterm loses the input focus the cursor becomes an outlined block this would also be preferable but i can t seem to force this to be the default either configuration is motorola k x r please reply by email if poss thank you steve weet european mis motorola cellular subscriber group beechgreen court chineham basingstoke hants england phone e mail stevew chineham euro csg mot com fax mobile post w steve weet european mis motorola cellular subscriber group beechgreen court chineham basingstoke hants england phone e mail stevew chineham euro csg mot com fax mobile post w
comp.windows.x	now available xvertext now available xvertext summary xvertext provides you with four functions to draw strings at any angle in an x window previous versions were limited to vertical text rotation is still achieved using ximages but the notion of rotating a whole font first has been dropped what s new i ve added a cache which keeps a copy of previously rotated strings thus speeding up redraws where can i get it comp sources x soon export lcs mit edu contrib xvertext shar z now alan richardson you don t have to be school of maths physical sciences old to be wise univ of sussex brighton bn qh england judas priest uk mppa uk ac sussex syma elsewhere mppa syma sussex ac uk
comp.windows.x	waiting for a specific event callback hello world i want to write my xt application code like this do some work now i need some user input xmcreatedialog wait for user input input if input ok more work else other work so more work and other work are not in callback functions but the application simply waits for the user to answer the question how can i code this in my xt motif application thanks very much in advance greetings huub cwi p o box huub bakker huub cwi nl ab amsterdam the netherlands tel
comp.windows.x	re desqview x on a pc in article wl aecl ca harrisp wl aecl ca writes i use desqview x and i think it is great where it really shines imho is to let unix users log into a pc and run dos and windows applications with the display going to their screens you ll need to get desqview x v desqview x v suggested retail desqview x to other x systems v suggested retail you also must be running a supported network ftp softwares pctcp novell lan workplace for dos sun microsystems pc nfs beame and whiteside wollongong pathway tcpip or hp microsoft lan manager if you don t have any of this network stuff quarterdeck will give you a copy of novell tcpip transprot for dos with the network manager you can get more info by sending email to appropriately info qdeck com in my opinion if you want to have other people logging in and running applications at your pc you ll want to have a with megs of ram also the xwindows software in desqviewx really seems to like an et tseng labs chipset based graphics card personally i found that things ran better with a scsi drive in the pc than with esdi drives but that is my experience only good luck and best wishes phil what sort of traffic is generated with the x calls i am curious to find out the required bandwidth that a link must have if one machine running dv x is supporting multiple users clients and we require adequate response time anyone have any ideas george patapis pan metron ariston c s s c lane cove email gpatapis cssc syd tansu com au p o box a sydney south fax nsw australia voice
comp.windows.x	x and security x technical conference i had no possibility to join the th annual x technical conference january boston ma nevertheless i m interested in information about the tutorials exspecially about tutorial id a security title a survey of x and security tutorial id f admin title x and the administrator does anybody know where i can get information paper mail about these has anybody information about kerberos escpecially in connection with x display manager xdm thanks andrea winkler siemens nixdorf muenchen germany s i e m e n s andrea winkler internet andrea winkler sto mchp sni de sni sto xs otto hahn ring d munich n i x d o r f phone fax
comp.windows.x	re is it just me or is this newsgroup dead i ve gotten very few posts on this group in the last couple days i recently added it to my feed list is it just me or is this group near death seen from the mailing list side i m getting about the right amount of traffic patrick l mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking a person unnecessarily should not be considered lazarus long a capital crime for a first offense that is from the notebooks of lazarus long patrick l mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking a person unnecessarily should not be considered lazarus long a capital crime for a first offense that is from the notebooks of lazarus long
comp.windows.x	re svr x binary dists was re rfd to create comp unix sys univel in article rick digibd rick digibd digibd com rick richardson writes the other scary thing is that i ship libxcl so with the functions in it how many other libxcl so type libraries will be shipped by other vendors should i trademark the name libxcl a what if some clown uses that name and only puts of the troublesome functions in it does usl svr support ld run path a la solaris or an equivalent if so you can put the library in a package specific lib directory compile the app with ld run path defined and all should work besides i d say name it libpackagexcl a if possible cheers ato ian dickinson nic handle id this article is dedicated to vato csv warwick ac uk uknet warwick vato those who disapprove but i i s dickinson ou csv o warwick prmd uk ac admd c gb continue to c gb o university of warwick ou computing services cn ian dickinson read
comp.windows.x	icon animation hi folks as part of my self introduction to x i ve been trying to do some simple icon animation sort of like icondoit from mswindows changing your own applications icon is fairly simple if you have a widget id you can just xtsetvalues on xtniconifypixmap or whatever and you re done alternately you can set window manager hints these methods don t seem to work with icons which your application doesn t specifically own in my situation i have to change the icon of random windows sitting there in my icon box so my question is given a window id how do you change the icon pixure a working example would be very much appreciated if it makes any difference i m using motif on vms t ke thanks scott
comp.windows.x	r table widget causing trouble with xtquerygeometry contents problems with table widgets in r the following part of a program an user interface for a simulation system did work in r but refused to in r of cause the r version did not know about the xptablewidgetclass we used tablewidgetclass instead caught from the net in times of r and xptablechildposition formerly xttblposition since compiling with r the program causes a zero width or height error on sparc stations the trouble shooter is the re computation of the model init table table widget though its childs label and asciitext widgets exist xtquerygeometry returns a prefered width and height of zero thus the following asignment cannot perform anything else but set the width and height of the newly created widget to zero no wonder xtpopup or xtmanage child create zero width or height errors dependent on whether width and height of the shell widget are set in the resource file or not question does anyone know why xtquerygeometry returns so low prefered values when working on table widgets or perhaps what to do about i ll be happy if someone is able to help me germans are requested to answer in german siegfried kaiser email kaiser uniko uni koblenz de the part of interest graphischer neuaufbau des model init formulars storing the old width and height of the viewport widget which is the parent of the troubling table widget before the viewport widget is destroyed the destroying of widgets before resizing them is a relict from r age if model init popped up xtunmapwidget model init form view xtdestroywidget model init form view creating the subtree within the shell of which the root is the viewport widget n xtsetarg args n xtnfromvert model init title n xtsetarg args n xtnfromhoriz model init button view n xtsetarg args n xtnallowvert true n xtsetarg args n xtnforcebars true n model init form view xtcreatewidget form view viewportwidgetclass model init form args n n model init table xtcreatewidget table xptablewidgetclass model init form view args n create form widget does create and position table widget s childs to position them it uses xptable childposition in r and xttblposition in r create form widget ptr model init obj model init table the crucial function call intended to return the maximum height possible if there isn t sufficient space to show the whole table widget then the viewport shall grow as large as possible but not beyond the border of screen if there is enough space the window is intended to shrienk to the smallest possible height xtquerygeometry model init table null pref according to the algorithms idea the new value of viewport widget s height is selected unfortunately pref height leads to new height if form view height pref height new height pref height else new height form view height setting the new values to viewport widgets ancestors w xtnametowidget model init form form view xtresizewidget w width new height pref border width xtresizewidget model init form view width new height pref border width if model init popped up in case the shell which contains model init form view and model init table allready exists is has to be resized too n xtsetarg args n xtnwidth shell width n xtsetarg args n xtnheight shell height n xtsetarg args n xtnborderwidth shell bw n xtgetvalues model init shell args n xtresizewidget model init shell shell width shell height height new height shell bw end of if n xtsetarg args n xtnwidth width n xtsetarg args n xtnborderwidth bw n xtgetvalues model init button view args n xtresizewidget model init button view width new height bw xtresizewidget vert bar sbar width sbar bw resize inits if there is the shell s height set within the resource file the program terminates within the first xtmanagechild on its second pass through the observed function the first pass succeeds xtmanagechild model init form view xtmanagechild model init table if model init popped up in case the shell isn t popped up it has to be done if there is no value set to the shell s height within the resource file the program terminates here xtpopup model init shell xtgrabnone model init pop flag true set model init attributes end of if get actual init ptr actual load form ptr actual if someone suspects the creation of table widget s contents causes all the trouble there are the sources of create form create form widget ptr table t obj ptr widget table ptr is a linear list containing attributes and para meters of the model and additionally the correspon ding widgets arg args int n row col t obj ptr obj t ident ptr ident initialization of the local variables ptr obj ptr col row schleife ueber die objekte bzw das pseudo objekt fuer die parameter loop through the list of objects and pseudo objects every object occuring in the model has zero or more attributes and some parameters which can be shared by several objects because of locality the attributes of one object are listed in a second linear list of type t ident whereas the parameters which can belong to any ob ject are put together in a pseudo object thus the program loops through the list of objects and pseudo objects and for each object through the list of its attributes resp parameters while ptr obj t obj null each object and pseudo object is represented in a label widget n xtsetarg args n xtnlabel ptr obj name n ptr obj label w xtcreatemanagedwidget object labelwidgetclass table args n xptablechildposition ptr obj label w col row col row ptr ident ptr obj ident schleife ueber die objekt attribute bzw parameter while ptr ident t ident null each attribute and parameter is represented in a label and has a corresponding asciitext widget in which it is to be initialized n xtsetarg args n xtnlabel ptr ident name n ptr ident label w xtcreatemanagedwidget ident labelwidgetclass table args n xptablechildposition ptr ident label w col row col n xtsetarg args n xtnlength row length n xtsetarg args n xtnstring ptr ident text n xtsetarg args n xtnedittype xawtextedit n xtsetarg args n xtnwrap xawtextwrapword n xtsetarg args n xtnresize xawtextresizeheight n xtsetarg args n xtnusestringinplace true n ptr ident text w xtcreatemanagedwidget text asciitextwidgetclass table args n xptablechildposition ptr ident text w col row col row get next ident ptr ident end of while col get next obj ptr obj end of while end of create form widget so far the problem in detail
comp.windows.x	re motif maling list the motif mailing list will now be located at lobo gsfc nasa gov if you would like to be added or deleted from this list please send mail to motif request lobo gsfc nasa gov to mail to the list send mail to motif lobo gsfc nasa gov brian brian dealy it not knowing where it s at dealy kong gsfc nasa gov that s important it s knowing uunet dftsrv kong dealy where it s not at b dylan
comp.windows.x	re xcopyplane question in article whaley apr sigma kpc com whaley sigma kpc com ken whaley writes actually i must also ask the faq s most popular reason why graphics don t show up do you wait for an expose event before drawing your rectangle suppose you have an idle app with a realized and mapped window that contains xlib graphics a button widget when pressed will cause a new item to be drawn in the window this action clearly should not call xcopyarea or equiv directly instead it should register the existence of the new item in a memory structure and let the expose event handler take care of rendering the image because at that time it is guaranteed that the window is mapped the problem of course is that no expose event is generated if the window is visible and mapped do you know the best way to tickle a window so that the expose event handler will be invoked to draw this new item
comp.windows.x	re xwindows always opaque hess swt informatik uni hamburg de writes i wonder if it is possible for a parent window to paint over the area of its childs if it is not then how could it be possible to implement a rubberband across multiple xwindows to select the objects that are displayed one in each window use a gc with the subwindow mode attribute set to includeinferiors the default is clipbychildren however beware if any of the children are of a different depth to the parent the semantics of this are undefined by the protocol gerard o driscoll gerard odriscoll dps co uk du pont pixel systems ltd
comp.windows.x	jb sgihbtn sierra com re xlib for ms windows not an xserver i think you may find that either quarterdeck deskview x or hummingbird exceed provide an xlib for dos perhaps they also have an xlib for ms windows it s a possibility yes exceed has windows version have ported some games like tetris works fine si c est vrai ce serait bien de se le procurer car a ce moment la le portage xt suis je en train de perdre mon temps avec la toolkit c marc bassini marc ccv fr marc cnam cnam fr computers communications visions c v bd haussmann paris france phone fax
comp.windows.x	how do you find a window id given its name i want to do the equivalent of an xwininfo name via a call or set of calls in xlib i need to map a windows name to its id it s probably easy but i ve only been programming in x for a little while i ve looked in the o reilly books and didn t find it and i also checked the faq and couldn t find it email to one of the following addresses and i ll post a response if it seems reasonable to do so guy guy l babineau virginia edu smarine uucp glb j sperry marine inc compuserve com
comp.windows.x	re waiting for a specific event callback in article charon cwi nl huub cwi nl huub bakker writes deleted in plain motify using a dialog in line like this simply isn t done you need to set callbacks from the buttons widgets in your dialog and let the callback routines do the work in the callbacks you can then carry on the flow of logic xview from sun actually supports this very neatly with a notify box which can return a status in line it does actualy ease coding but goes against the event driven style of an application summary redesign required delta hedging a long option position also generates a short gamma exposure and any return generated from delta hedging options can be thought of as compensation for assuming gamma risk radioactive investment management whew
comp.windows.x	re circular motif widgets if you re willing to do a little work you can make drawnbuttons do what you want more or less one of my colleagues here at ge crd has done just that in our internal lymb system we have a matrix transform class that makes it easy to compute a series of dial positions from a single set of vectors each set of vectors is then drawn into a pixmap clicking the button advances the knob s state and changes to the next pixmap in the sequence using drawnbuttons obviously still constrains you to taking up a rectangular portion of the parent widget but that s normally not a big shortcoming you can make things look circular enough skip montanaro crd ge com why can t x be this easy me after learning about dlopen
comp.windows.x	re creating bit windows on bit display how stolk fwi uva nl writes a problem occurs when i try to create a window with a visual that is different from the visual of the parent which uses the default visual which is tc you ve got to set border pixel in your window attributes the default is copyfromparent which gives the badmatch do this unsigned long valuemask if border width is non zero you d better alloc a colour from cmap rather than use any old pixel value also use valuemask it makes the code more obvious attr colormap cmap attr border pixel valuemask cwcolormap cwborderpixel win xcreatewindow dpy defaultrootwindow dpy width height border width see comment below depth inputoutput class vinfo visual visual valuemask attr a note on border width your code looked like this win xcreatewindow dpy defaultrootwindow dpy width height copyfromparent border width depth inputoutput class vinfo visual visual cwcolormap attr border width set to copyfromparent works but doesn t make sense border width should be an unsigned int you get away with it because copyfromparent is define ed to be zero in x h if it happened to be defined as you d get a very interesting looking window gerard o driscoll gerard odriscoll dps co uk du pont pixel systems ltd
comp.windows.x	re xvideo information the product you mention is xvideo from parallax graphics in santa clara california us you can read our product review in the jan feb issue of the x journal that issues focuses on multimedia and x in which there are also a number of other useful items including an article on video in an x window fax our new york office at for information on obtaining back issues steve steven mikes editor the x journal eastbrook rd martinsville nj office fax serving the x window system community
comp.windows.x	re xlib for ms windows not an xserver another company congruent corporation of new york city has also ported xlib xt and motif over to ms windows nt which provides full client development for x applications in an nt environment if you are porting interviews over to ms windows i thought interviews was a c toolkit with c classes if that is so how can it be built on xlib unless the classes are calling xlib functions steve steven mikes editor the x journal eastbrook rd martinsville nj office fax serving the x window system community
comp.windows.x	need shading program example in x do anyone know about any shading program based on xlib in the public domain i need an example about how to allocate correct colormaps for the program appreciate the help howard
comp.windows.x	re system file in tmp in article c jjig doy acsu buffalo edu lusardi cs buffalo edu christopher lusardi writes what is the directory x unix for in tmp when i start x it is created by the system this directory wasn t created by root and it contains an empty file x that is owned by me it s the unix domain socket local connection to your xserver try to rm it o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.windows.x	re title for xterm in article c ol b aeon in berlin de thomas aeon in berlin de thomas wolfram writes hey guys i work on many stations and would like this name and current logname to be in a title of xterm when it s open and a machine name only when it s closed in other words i want host and logname to appear as a title of opened xterm and host when xterm is closed how can i do it almost all window managers twm mwm olwm and their derivates support escape sequences for it for your purpose put following into your login if you re using csh or tcsh for sh you have to modify it if term xterm then echo logname host g host g endif this is not a feature of the window manager but of xterm this sequences are not ansi compatible are they does anyone know if there are compatible sequences for this and what they are i would think they are dcs device control sequence introduced but may be a csi sequence exists too this must work on a dxterm vt and ansi compatible it may not work on xterms o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.windows.x	x server problems hello i m trying to get x r running on my pc and ran into the following error message when trying to start the xserver setting tcp so dontlinger option not supported by protocol x version x windows system protocol version revision vendor release fatal server error no screens found giving up xinit software cased connection abort errno unable to connect to x xserver does anyone know what this error means has anyone experienced this problem help will be much appreciated thanks in advance please send replies to christy alex qc ca christy
comp.windows.x	solution why do i need xrdb m when xdefaults unchanged the short answer seems to be i don t the particular package wscrawl seems to reset all its defaults if any of them are missing from the xdefaults file once i added the missing ones to the xdefaults file the problem goes away kevin kevin weinrich computer sciences corp kbw helios ath epa gov
comp.windows.x	icon box dear xperts i want to place a specific group of icons in an icon box and have my other icons appear outside of the box does anyone know if there s a way i can do this i m using x r and motif thanks dbohdal jaguar ess harris com
comp.windows.x	what inexpensive monochrome x station can you recommend can someone recommend an inexpensive monochrome x station that is not pc software emulation based please tell me manufacturer model price and any other significant specs thanks gregg weber let it be open and bright like the sky gregg netcom com without taking sides with no clouds of concepts kun mkhyen klong chen pa
comp.windows.x	xtranslatecoord problem it seems like xtranslatecoord doesn t work the way i expecting it right after performs a xmovewindow i want to know the absolute window position with respect to the root window to get this info i do a xtranslatecoordinates but the abs x and abs y aren t right does anybody know of a way to find out this information thanks please e mail to hsteve carina unm edu if it s possible steve o o hsteve hydra unm edu hsteve carina unm edu just say no to vms
comp.windows.x	re dec pixmap size in article igd fhg de haase igd fhg de helmut haase goebel writes if i try to create a pixmap larger than the size of my screen the program will terminate displaying the message x error badalloc insufficient resources many x servers supporting graphics accelerators do not allow the creation of pixmaps exeeding the size of the screen one workaround is to create several smaller pixmaps and add the results ken lee klee synoptics com
comp.windows.x	re circular motif widgets in article bjg acsc com dev hollywood acsc com writes will there be any support for round or circular widgets in motif s next release i d love to have a circular knob widget which could be used instead of a slider how much support do you need i don t think there s anything that prohibits you from implementing such a widget though you will have to write your own versions of the functions that draw the d shadow and traversal highlighting ken lee klee synoptics com
comp.windows.x	re desqview x on a pc in article qtk rn picasso cssc syd tansu com au gpatapis boyd tansu com au writes in article wl aecl ca harrisp wl aecl ca writes i use desqview x and i think it is great where it really shines imho is to let unix users log into a pc and run dos and windows applications with the display going to their screens you ll need to get desqview x v desqview x v suggested retail desqview x to other x systems v suggested retail you also must be running a supported network ftp softwares pctcp novell lan workplace for dos sun microsystems pc nfs beame and whiteside wollongong pathway tcpip or hp microsoft lan manager if you don t have any of this network stuff quarterdeck will give you a copy of novell tcpip transprot for dos with the network manager you can get more info by sending email to appropriately info qdeck com actually info qdeck com is our customer service department if you have technical questions you can write to support qdeck com in my opinion if you want to have other people logging in and running applications at your pc you ll want to have a with megs of ram also the xwindows software in desqviewx really seems to like an et tseng labs chipset based graphics card personally i found that things ran better with a scsi drive in the pc than with esdi drives but that is my experience only what sort of traffic is generated with the x calls i am curious to find out the required bandwidth that a link must have if one machine running dv x is supporting multiple users clients and we require adequate response time anyone have any ideas i expect the limiting factor will be your server machine not the network itself to give you a real world example here at quarterdeck we have roughly people using dvx to talk to a bunch of unix boxes novell file servers and each other it s not too much of a load on our ethernet with maybe concentrators so you have people on each segment if you had a badly loaded net or the apps you wanted to run were very network intensive you could run into some slowdowns but the biggest problem would be the machine itself say you have a with plenty of ram and a fast hard disk and network card if you have people running programs off it you re going to see some slowdowns because you re now on effectively a mhz of course dvx will attempt to see if tasks are idle and make sure they give up their time slice but if you have working programs running you ll know it having said that if you can tweak the programs being run by adding in calls to give up time slices when idle and that sort of thing you could probably run people on a given machine before you started seeing slowdowns again this time from network bandwidth it all really depends on what the programs are doing ie you re going to see a slowdown from x bandwidth a lot sooner if your apps are all doing network things also quarterdeck office systems internet support tom bortels pricing ordering info qdeck com tech questions support qdeck com bbs fax compuserve go quarterdeck q fax from touch tone phone for technotes on demand
comp.windows.x	xview slider hi netters i m using sliders in my xview apps usually with editable numeric field but i seem to have no control over the length of this field in some apps it appears long enough to keep several characters in some it cannot keep even the maximum value set by panel max value as i understand panel value display length which controls number of characters to be displayed in text items doesn t work in the case of slider despite the fact that panel h contains the following bit panel multiline text item panel numeric text item panel slider item and panel text item attributes panel notify level panel attr attr enum panel value display length panel attr attr int which gives a hint that this attribute can be used for sliders but setting this attribute gives nothing and xv get ting this attribute gives warning bad attribute and return value can someone share his experience in managing sliders in xview with me and clear this problem any help is very much appreciated yuri yuri uk ac hw phy
comp.windows.x	mysterious beeping article crossposted from hp windows author was andy defaria posted on mon apr gmt for some reason the following code causes my x application to beep whenever i intercept a keystroke and change it s meaning the intent of this code it to allow date fields the following special keys tt insert today s date bump day up by one bump day down by one i hardcoded some dates for this example perhaps i shouldn t be using an xmtext field for this for some reason the following code beeps whenever any of the special keys of tt are hit why the idea of this code is to interpret these keys having the special meaning implied by the code i would like to get rid of the beeping but as far as i can tell i m not doing the beep and am at a lose as to understanding who and why the beeping is occuring include x intrinsic h include xm xm h include xm rowcolumn h include xm mainw h include xm text h widget toplevel widget mainwindow widget mainpane widget datefield xtappcontext application void marktoday widget date char todaysdate xtvasetvalues date xmnvalue todaysdate null marktoday void marktomorrow widget date char tomorrowsdate xtvasetvalues date xmnvalue tomorrowsdate null marktomorrow void markyesterday widget date char yesterdaysdate xtvasetvalues date xmnvalue yesterdaysdate null markyesterday void datekeys widget callingwidget widget date xmtextverifyptr callbackdata capture the keys tt can change their behaviour if found set doit to false so x won t interpret the keystroke switch callbackdata text ptr case t case t marktoday date callbackdata doit false return case case markyesterday date callbackdata doit false return case case marktomorrow date callbackdata doit false return default return switch datekeys void main cardinal argc char argv initialize xt toplevel xtvaappinitialize application application null argc argv null null create the toolface mainwindow xtvacreatemanagedwidget mainwindow xmmainwindowwidgetclass toplevel null create a mainwindow mainpane xtvacreatemanagedwidget mainpane xmrowcolumnwidgetclass mainwindow null create a small text area datefield xtvacreatemanagedwidget datefield xmtextwidgetclass mainpane xmntopattachment xmattach form xmnrightattachment xmattach form xmncolumns null set modifyverifycallback to the datekeys callback xtaddcallback datefield xmnmodifyverifycallback xtcallbackproc datekeys xtpointer datefield realize the toplevel xtrealizewidget toplevel go into the xtmainloop xtappmainloop application main i swear by my life and the love of it that i will andrew defaria never live for the sake of another man nor ask hewlett packard another man to live for mine california language labs john galt defaria cup hp com i swear by my life and the love of it that i will andrew defaria never live for the sake of another man nor ask hewlett packard another man to live for mine california language labs john galt defaria cup hp com
comp.windows.x	re ms windows vs motif gui design differences was re future of unix ik su yoo ik mobydick leis bellcore com writes another important difference is that msw doesn t have any window that handle sophisticated geometry management like xmform is this an advantage to ms windows or to xt i used to think it was a big advantage for xt but i am not at all sure anymore david smyth david jpl devvax jpl nasa gov senior software engineer temp do not use v mail x and object guru tempory office b jet propulsion lab m s oak grove drive pasadena ca what s the earliest possible date you can t prove it won t be done by tom demarco
comp.windows.x	re looking for david e smyth zvi nynexst com zvi guter writes the author of wcl or the current care taker his is the only name i found in the dist tree i have tried to mail him at david smyth ap mchp sni de but the mail bounced back here i am david smyth david jpl devvax jpl nasa gov senior software engineer temp do not use v mail x and object guru tempory office b jet propulsion lab m s oak grove drive pasadena ca what s the earliest possible date you can t prove it won t be done by tom demarco
comp.windows.x	macro recorder player for x is there aything available for x similar to quickeys for the macintosh something that will allow me to store and playback sequences of keystrokes menu selections and mouse actions directing them towards another application if so could someone send me information on its availability and if not how hard do we think it might be to send input to other x applications and hopefully deal with their responses appropriately if an application is going to take a few seconds to process i probably have to wait for it to complete before sending another command thanks david
comp.windows.x	monthly question about xcopyarea and expose events nd posting of the question that just doesn t seem to get answered suppose you have an idle app with a realized and mapped window that contains xlib graphics a button widget when pressed will cause a new item to be drawn in the window this action clearly should not call xcopyarea or equiv directly instead it should register the existence of the new item in a memory structure and let the same expose event handler that handles regular expose events e g window manager driven exposures take care of rendering the new image using an expose event handler is a proper way to do this because at the time the handler is called the xlib window is guaranteed to be mapped the problem of course is that no expose event is generated if the window is already visible and mapped what we need to do is somehow tickle the window so that the expose handler is hit with arguments that will enable it to render just the part of the window that contains the new item what is the best way to tickle a window to produce this behavior
comp.windows.x	seeking user experience with x based test tools does anyone have any experience using xrunner capbak x or prevuex as an automated test tool for x please email me directly with opinions both positive and negative ann freeman siemens industrial automation inc johnson city tn aff tijc uunet uu net
comp.windows.x	drawing lines inverse xor i m trying to write some code that lets me draw lines and do rubber band boxes in motif x i m running on an bit display for which i ve created a colormap and am using almost all of the colors i want to draw the lines in a drawing area widget a widget in which i m displaying a bitmap using xputimage if doesn t matter if the lines i draw interactively stay around when the window is refreshed currently to draw interactively i begin with drawindex is an colortable index i reserve for the foreground my default bg color is the color index for the background of my image palette colors drawindex red palette colors my default bg color red palette colors drawindex green palette colors my default bg color green palette colors drawindex blue palette colors my default bg color blue xstorecolors mydisplay my cmap palette colors drawindex xflush mydisplay xsetfunction mydisplay gc gxxor xsetforeground mydisplay gc drawindex then to draw i do xdrawline mydisplay xtwindow drawingarea gc x y x y xflush mydisplay and when i m all done to return things to normal i do xsetfunction mydisplay gc gxcopy what i d like to happen is for the lines i draw to be the inverse of whatever i m drawing over instead what happens is i get white lines if the lines are over a white background nothing shows up if the lines are over a black area nothing shows up it s very strange but the gxxor function seems right since if i do a rubber banding box it erases and redraws itself correctly ie not disturbing the underlying image any suggestions what i m doing wrong david
comp.windows.x	re monthly question about xcopyarea and expose events in article buzz apr lion bear com buzz bear com buzz moschetti writes nd posting of the question that just doesn t seem to get answered how can we resist a questions that says something like this the problem of course is that no expose event is generated if the window is already visible and mapped what we need to do is somehow tickle the window so that the expose handler is hit with arguments that will enable it to render just the part of the window that contains the new item what is the best way to tickle a window to produce this behavior if your expose event handler is truly intelligent about exposed rectangle information then you can use xcleararea to generate an expose event assuming that your background pixel is not none for the enclosing rectangle of your new item this is still not great since any other items contained within that rectangle will still be unnecessarily redrawn if your expose event handler simply redraws everything you ll be doing much more work than just drawing the new item on top of the existing scene mike yang silicon graphics inc mikey sgi com
comp.windows.x	how to put rpc in hp x motif environment hi has anybody implements an rpc server in the hp xwindows in sun xview there is a notify enable rpc svc call that automatically executes the rpc processes when it detects an incoming request i wonder if there is a similar function in hp x motif that perform the same function any help is appreciated nui chan nchan ctr columbia edu
comp.windows.x	mix gl with x xlib xt mwm i am developing an x xt xm application that will include a graphics window of some sort with moving symbols among other things a pure x application could be implemented with motif widgets one of which would be an xmdrawingarea for drawing with xlib but i would like to take advantage of the graphics library gl available on our ibm rs sgi s gl i believe is it possible to mix x and gl in one application program can i use gl subroutines in an xmdrawingarea or in an x window opened by me with xopenwindow i have never used gl before but the doc on gl winopen says that the first time winopen is called it opens a connection to the server also most of the gl calls do not require a display or gc unlike most x calls from this initial information it appears that x and gl cannot be mixed easily is this true does pex graphigs have the same functionality of gl environment aixwindows x r motif gl is available aix sys v ibm rs thanks in advance jay graham jade simulations international corp colonnade road suite nepean ontario canada x graham ottawa jade com
comp.windows.x	drawing an abstract graph i am looking for software to draw a graph i want to just give it a list of nodes and edges between the nodes and have the program come up with some reasonable positioning of it thanks in advance dan aronson dan think com thinking machines corporation
comp.windows.x	re monthly question about xcopyarea and expose events excerpts from netnews comp windows x apr monthly question about xcop buzz moschetti bear com a button widget when pressed will cause a new item to be drawn in the window this action clearly should not call xcopyarea or equiv directly instead it should register the existence of the new item in a memory structure and let the same expose event handler that handles regular expose events e g window manager driven exposures take care of rendering the new image hmmm clearly depends on your programming model it is not at all forbidden to draw outside the context of an expose event certainly any internal data structures should be maintained such that the visual appearance would be maintained properly whenever an expose event happens to be generated this doesn t preclude drawing immediately after updating the datastructures though rob
comp.windows.x	wanted critiques on multi windowing system toolkits any pointers to articles or personal opinions critiquing user interface toolkits that operate across many windowing systems e g x ms windows macintosh you know open interface xvt aspect if you reply with your opinion please briefly state your choice and a short discussion why steve maher maher outland gsfc nasa gov steve maher voice flight dynamics division maher kong gsfc nasa gov nasa goddard space flight center
comp.windows.x	re how to put rpc in hp x motif environment in article apr sol ctr columbia edu nchan nova ctr columbia edu nui chan writes has anybody implements an rpc server in the hp xwindows in sun xview there is a notify enable rpc svc call that automatically executes the rpc processes when it detects an incoming request i wonder if there is a similar function in hp x motif that perform the same function i ve been using the xrpc package for about a year now i believe i got it from export ian hogg ianhogg cs umn edu
comp.windows.x	colormap question hi experts i m kind of new to x the following question is strange to me i am trying to modify the contents of the colormap but failed without reason to me i am using the following piece of code toplevel xtinitialize argv testcolor null argc argv dpy xtdisplay toplevel scr defaultscreen dpy def colormap defaultcolormap dpy scr if xalloccolorcells dpy def colormap true null cells color pixel cells color red color green color blue color flags dored dogreen doblue xstorecolor dpy def colormap color printf n try to allocate the color d as d d d color pixel color red color green color blue xquerycolor dpy def colormap color printf n after allocate the color d is d d d color pixel color red color green color blue else printf n error couldn t allocate color cells running output try to allocate the color as after allocate the color is after xstorecolor xquerycolor just returned the original value no failure error displayed but the contents of colormap are obvious unchanged i also tried to draw a line using the colors but it turned out to be the unmodified colors so what is my problem how to modify the contents of the colormap any help information will be appreciated please send mail to yang cs umass edu william email yang cs umass edu by the way the following is the environment i am using output of xdpyinfo it shows the default visual is pseudocolor version number vendor string decwindows digitalequipmentcorporation uws vendor release number maximum request size longwords bytes motion buffer size bitmap unit bit order padding lsbfirst image byte order lsbfirst number of supported pixmap formats supported pixmap formats depth bits per pixel scanline pad depth bits per pixel scanline pad keycode range minimum maximum number of extensions adobe dps extension dpsextension shape mit shm multi buffering xinputextension mit sundry nonstandard dec xtrap default screen number number of screens screen dimensions x pixels x millimeters resolution x dots per inch depths root window id x depth of root window planes number of colormaps minimum maximum default colormap x default number of colormap cells preallocated pixels black white options backing store yes save unders yes current input event mask xd d keypressmask buttonpressmask buttonreleasemask enterwindowmask substructureredirectmask propertychangemask colormapchangemask number of visuals default visual id x visual visual id x class pseudocolor depth planes size of colormap entries red green blue masks x x x significant bits in color specification bits visual visual id x class grayscale depth planes size of colormap entries red green blue masks x x x significant bits in color specification bits visual visual id x class staticgray depth planes size of colormap entries red green blue masks x x x significant bits in color specification bits visual visual id x class staticcolor depth planes size of colormap entries red green blue masks x x xc significant bits in color specification bits visual visual id x class truecolor depth planes size of colormap entries red green blue masks x x xc significant bits in color specification bits number of mono multibuffer types visual id max buffers depth x visual id max buffers depth x visual id max buffers depth x visual id max buffers depth x visual id max buffers depth x number of stereo multibuffer types
comp.windows.x	re macx color problem in article kul ux cso uiuc edu kerr ux cso uiuc edu stan kerr writes i have a peculiar color problem with macx apple s macintosh x server i d like to know if others have seen the same problem it s happened with the current version and with version when some types of client windows are displayed parts of the windows are in the wrong color if the window is moved slightly forcing the server to repaint it it is repainted in the correct colors it doesn t happen for xterm windows but has happened for graphic windows and with some motif clients i expect what is going on here is that your colormap is full and when the new application starts up it cannot add the colors that it needs to the colormap it therefore has to pick and choose from the existing colors this makes it look ugly until it s window gets priority then macx changes the colormap so that the selected app is getting the exact colors it wanted but now other applications are having to make do with it s colormap this is a problem with all color x servers or at least all color xservers i have seen when the demands of the applications exceed the size of the colormap my solution is usually to avoid colormap greedy apps and display applications where color is just icing on the cake in monochrome mode rather than in color if this is an option for the application doug shaker voice fax email dshaker qualix com mail qualix group s norfolk st san mateo ca qualix maintains a mailserver with information files and demo versions of products if you would like more information on the mailserver send an email to qfacts qualix com or uunet qualix qfacts the email should take the following form begin send help send index end name address phone
comp.windows.x	forcing a window manager to accept specific coordinates for a window hi i m trying to figure out how to make a window manager place the window where the create window command tells it regardless of what it may think is right my application has reason to know better i don t want to set the override redirect because i do want all the embellishments that the window manager gives i just want the wm to accept my choice of location i ve tried twm tvtwm and mwm and they are all uncooperative thanks ethan
comp.windows.x	re mysterious beeping in article c qtkk wp cup hp com defaria cup hp com andy defaria writes article crossposted from hp windows author was andy defaria posted on mon apr gmt for some reason the following code causes my x application to beep whenever i intercept a keystroke and change it s meaning the intent of this code it to allow date fields the following special keys tt insert today s date bump day up by one bump day down by one i hardcoded some dates for this example perhaps i shouldn t be using an xmtext field for this for some reason the following code beeps whenever any of the special keys of tt are hit why the idea of this code is to interpret these keys having the special meaning implied by the code i would like to get rid of the beeping but as far as i can tell i m not doing the beep and am at a lose as to understanding who and why the beeping is occuring code deleted from the xmtextfield man page during discussion of resources xmnverifybell specifies whether a bell will sound when an action is reversed during a verification callback you are setting doit to false in the callback and text field is beeping as it should to turn off this behavior set this boolean resource to false tom mcfarland tommc cv hp com
comp.windows.x	re monthly question about xcopyarea and expose events nd posting of the question that just doesn t seem to get answered suppose you have an idle app with a realized and mapped window that contains xlib graphics a button widget when pressed will cause a new item to be drawn in the window this action clearly should not call xcopyarea or equiv directly instead it should register the existence of the new item in a memory structure and let the same expose event handler that handles regular expose events e g window manager driven exposures take care of rendering the new image using an expose event handler is a proper way to do this because at the time the handler is called the xlib window is guaranteed to be mapped the problem of course is that no expose event is generated if the window is already visible and mapped what we need to do is somehow tickle the window so that the expose handler is hit with arguments that will enable it to render just the part of the window that contains the new item what is the best way to tickle a window to produce this behavior if i understand your problem correctly you want to have a way to send exposures to your manager widget when your app specific code draws xlib graphics on the window it sounds like you might want to send an exposure using xsendevent and specifying a region if you know the region you need to send the exposure generally you have the bounding rectangle of the objects you can use xcreateregion to create a region xunionrectwithregion to add the new object polygons to the region and then either use the region to clip your gc for the redraw or use xrectinregion to test which of your other objects need to be redrawn keeping in mind that the stacking order of overlapping objects affects how they look hope it helps brian dealy it not knowing where it s at dealy kong gsfc nasa gov that s important it s knowing uunet dftsrv kong dealy where it s not at b dylan brian dealy it not knowing where it s at dealy kong gsfc nasa gov that s important it s knowing uunet dftsrv kong dealy where it s not at b dylan
comp.windows.x	ask the ftp address of kerberos version draft rfc 
comp.windows.x	how do i find my appcontext is there an xt call to give me my application context i am fixing up an x motif program and am trying to use xtappaddtimeout whose first argument is the app context what call can i use to give me this value thanks todd greene masc ucssun sdsu edu
comp.windows.x	re xcopyplane question in article buzz apr lion bear com buzz bear com buzz moschetti write in article whaley apr sigma kpc com whaley sigma kpc com ken whaley writes actually i must also ask the faq s most popular reason why graphics don t show up do you wait for an expose event before drawing your rectangle suppose you have an idle app with a realized and mapped window that contains xlib graphics a button widget when pressed will cause a new item to be drawn in the window this action clearly should not call xcopyarea or equiv directly instead it should register the existence of the new item in a memory structure and let the expose event handler take care of rendering the image because at that time it is guaranteed that the window is mapped the problem of course is that no expose event is generated if the window is visible and mapped do you know the best way to tickle a window so that the expose event handler will be invoked to draw this new item what does this have to do with my original question i previously stated that i did an xcopyarea of the depth pixmap to the screen just to make sure that my image had data and it did this is not a problem with expose events it has to do with xcopyplane not working does anyone have a code fragment they could send demonstrating that xcopyplane works this would be very helpful thanks nancie p marin net nancie neko css gov ensco inc mail pineda ct melbourne fl fax
comp.windows.x	wcl for solaris is there a version of wcl that has been ported to solaris including ansi c i had numerous problems trying to compile wcl under solaris and the functions do not have prototypes i have wcl from the sun user group s cds please email answers as i am not on this list tom tulinsky capital management sciences west los angeles manually address answers to zuma tom netcomsv netcom com
comp.windows.x	re xwininfo i want to do the equivalent of an xwininfo name via a call or set of calls in xlib i need to map a windows name to its id it s probably easy but i ve only been programming in x for a little while do you have the x source code simply look in mit clients xwininfo xwininfo c and you will find out exactly how to do it adrian nye o reilly and associates
comp.windows.x	none i am working on a problem of scheduling classroom and i will like to know if you have some software papers or articles about it if you have something relate it please let me know thanks lorenza illanes
comp.windows.x	re xcopyplane question in article whaley apr sigma kpc com whaley sigma kpc com ken whaley writes actually i must also ask the faq s most popular reason why graphics don t show up do you wait for an expose event before drawing your rectangle suppose you have an idle app with a realized and mapped window that contains xlib graphics a button widget when pressed will cause a new item to be drawn in the window this action clearly should not call xcopyarea or equiv directly instead it should register the existence of the new item in a memory structure and let the expose event handler take care of rendering the image because at that time it is guaranteed that the window is mapped the problem of course is that no expose event is generated if the window is visible and mapped do you know the best way to tickle a window so that the expose event handler will be invoked to draw this new item i specifically made the above comment assuming that perhaps the code fragment came from a simple open draw quit client as per your question why not have the button handler add the object and then call the window redraw or whatever directly although depending on how the overall application is structured there may be no problem with rendering the object directly in response to the button press ken kenneth whaley kubota pacific computer inc email whaley kpc com walsh avenue santa clara ca
comp.windows.x	mwm title drag crashes x server sigpipe environment mach arch sparc sun ipx os sunos x x r patchlevel motif i bring up x server using startx and usr bin x xsun the following sequence of actions crashes the x server sigpipe errno xinit reports that connexion to x server lost xinit xsun start mwm start a client with a dpi dpi font move the window by dragging the title bar the server dumps core due to sigpipe one of the two messages is printed connection to x server lost or connection broken errno i believe the first is reported by a client and the second by the server itself next i ran xdm in debug level after the same set of actions xdm reports select returns server for terminated unexpectedly status note the problem doesn t occur with other window managers twm or olwm i have not set ld library path i am not running font server if i start the client with fixed width font i do not see this problem my font path usr lib x fonts misc usr lib x fonts speedo usr lib x fonts dpi usr lib x fonts dpi i did mkfontdir in usr lib x fonts dpi usr lib x fonts dpi usr lib x fonts pex usr lib x fonts speedo and in usr lib x fonts misc this problem seems to occur only on ipx machines i do not see this problem on ipc workstations questions what the hell is goin on what does status mean of the server i d greatly appreciate any hints as to the cause of the problem s ramakrishnan cs dept mcbryde hall vatech
comp.windows.x	xlock i found an oddity with our sgi indigo mips r chip when xlock nolock is running and i am working remotely or in batch at mode the runtime of my programs as timed by using clock in the code itself is slower than if xlock is not running no other processes seem to affect my runtimes yet this is very consistent any explanations real or imagined thanx dale frostedflakes llnl gov
comp.windows.x	xt intrinsics slow popups help i am running some sample problems from o reilly volume xt intrisics programming manual chapter popup dialog boxes and so on in example page creating a pop up dialog box the application creates window with a button quit and press me the button press me pops up a dialog box the strange feature of this program is that it always pops up the dialog box much faster the first time if i try to pop it up a nd time rd th time it is much slower has anyone any experience with these sample programs or why i get this behaviour fast response time for the first time but slow response time from nd time onwards anyone can give me some ideas on how to program popups so that each time they popup in reasonable fast response time thankyou shirley
comp.windows.x	re how to put rpc in hp x motif environment in article c r j gu news cis umn edu ianhogg milli cs umn edu ian j hogg writes in article apr sol ctr columbia edu nchan nova ctr columbia edu nui chan writes has anybody implements an rpc server in the hp xwindows in sun xview there is a notify enable rpc svc call that automatically executes the rpc processes when it detects an incoming request i wonder if there is a similar function in hp x motif that perform the same function i ve been using the xrpc package for about a year now i believe i got it from export glad to hear that it s working for you i couldn t find it on export however simon leinen simon liasun epfl ch has added an imakefile and an athena version and made it available for ftp in the file liasun epfl ch pub x contrib xrpc tar z note the z suffix you ll need gnu gzip also on liasun in pub gnu to uncompress it if this doesn t work send me a note and i d be happy to mail you a copy but you probably won t get it until the start of may i m on holidays as of tomorrow martin janzen janzen mprgate mpr ca mpr teltech ltd nelson way burnaby bc canada v a b p s are there any dublin x folks that want to go for a pint of guinness at say mulligan s
comp.windows.x	re drawing lines inverse xor i m trying to write some code that lets me draw lines and do rubber band boxes in motif x i m running on an bit display for which i ve created a colormap and am using almost all of the colors i want to draw the lines in a drawing area widget a widget in which i m displaying a bitmap using xputimage if doesn t matter if the lines i draw interactively stay around when the window is refreshed currently to draw interactively i begin with drawindex is an colortable index i reserve for the foreground my default bg color is the color index for the background of my image palette colors drawindex red palette colors my default bg color red palette colors drawindex green palette colors my default bg color green palette colors drawindex blue palette colors my default bg color blue xstorecolors mydisplay my cmap palette colors drawindex xflush mydisplay xsetfunction mydisplay gc gxxor xsetforeground mydisplay gc drawindex then to draw i do xdrawline mydisplay xtwindow drawingarea gc x y x y xflush mydisplay and when i m all done to return things to normal i do xsetfunction mydisplay gc gxcopy what i d like to happen is for the lines i draw to be the inverse of whatever i m drawing over instead what happens is i get white lines if the lines are over a white background nothing shows up if the lines are over a black area nothing shows up it s very strange but the gxxor function seems right since if i do a rubber banding box it erases and redraws itself correctly ie not disturbing the underlying image any suggestions what i m doing wrong i believe for this to work on a color display you must set the foreground of the gc to be foreground background patrick l mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking a person unnecessarily should not be considered lazarus long a capital crime for a first offense that is from the notebooks of lazarus long
comp.windows.x	how do i cause a timeout i have a problem where an athena strip chart widget is not calling it s get value function i am pretty sure this is happening because i am not using xtappmainloop but am dealing with events via sockets ya ya anyway i want to cause a timeout so that the strip chart widget s will call their get value callback or if someone knows another fast way around this or any way for that matter let me know i cannot or i don t think call the xtngetvalue callback myself because i don t have the value for the third parameter of the get value proc xtpointer call data in other words i want to force a strip chart widget to update itself any ideas anyone christopher r bailey internet baileyc dendrite cs colorado edu university of colorado at boulder compuserve ride fast take chances
comp.windows.x	transparent widgets how i need to write an application which does annotation notes on existing documents the annotation could be done several times by different people the idea is something like having several acetate transparencies stacked on top of each other so that the user can see through all of them i ve seen something like this being done by the oclock client could someone please tell me how to do it in xt thank you very much
comp.windows.x	re multi screen apps and window managers jo pelkey phone battelle pacific northwest labs fax mail stop k email je pelkey pnl gov p o box richland wa hi jo i m also interested in your questions so if you get any answers via email and not via repost please let me know thanks rainer rainer hochreiter telephone elin energieanwendung gesmbh telefax penzingerstr a wien austria europe e mail rainer elin co at
comp.windows.x	re how do i find by appcontext is there an xt call to give me my application context i am fixing up an x motif program and am trying to use xtappaddtimeout whose first argument is the app context what call can i use to give me this value use xtdisplaytoapplicationcontext to retreive the application context patrick l mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking a person unnecessarily should not be considered lazarus long a capital crime for a first offense that is from the notebooks of lazarus long patrick l mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking a person unnecessarily should not be considered lazarus long a capital crime for a first offense that is from the notebooks of lazarus long
comp.windows.x	x device driver for bird has anyone written a device driver to use the ascension bird with xwindows o o o suresh thennarangam email suresh iss nus sg internet research scholar issst nusvm bitnet institute of systems science tel national university of singapore facs heng mui keng terrace telex issnus rs singapore
comp.windows.x	re forcing a window manager to accept specific coordinates for a window in article c r y hfz cs columbia edu ethan solomita writes hi i m trying to figure out how to make a window manager place the window where the create window command tells it regardless of what it may think is right my application has reason to know better i don t want to set the override redirect because i do want all the embellishments that the window manager gives i just want the wm to accept my choice of location window xcreatewindow xsettransientforhint display window window xmapwindow this is probably cheating and some window managers might still refuse to give it a border and all that other stuff but it usually works
comp.windows.x	devguide with motif solaris to ease motif burden we ve developed a number of applications using devguide and found it to be a very useful tool i ve been impressed with the level of integration it affords using the connection editor i love the general ease of use i talked with tali aben at sun today about devguide motif she was very helpful we provided some input as to what we d like to see in the next version of devguide tali was very enthusiatic about our comments i mentioned i was going to post this email message and she offered to receive additional comments from the net on what devguide should evolve into send your comments wish list raving et al about devguide to tali aben sun com pretty cool example of a company that cares what we want more of this and computers may have a future frankly i like the idea that it will offer some migration capability to doe domf through an integrated tooltalk capability pointed out in march s sunexpert magazine technology works we can crankout the interfaces with devguide price is outstanding
comp.windows.x	running dxterm s onto apollo from dec help i m trying to run dxterm s decs xterm on a decstation ultrix x r motif with the display variable set to an apollo dn domain os x r motif i get these errors appearing on the decstation dxterm x toolkit warning cannot convert string key apchardel to type virtualbinding x toolkit warning cannot convert string key apcopy to type virtualbinding x toolkit warning cannot convert string key apcut to type virtualbinding x toolkit warning cannot convert string key appaste to type virtualbinding x toolkit warning cannot convert string key apupbox to type virtualbinding x toolkit warning cannot convert string key apdownbox to type virtualbinding x toolkit warning cannot convert string key aprightbar to type virtualbinding x toolkit warning cannot convert string key apleftbar to type virtualbinding segmentation fault any ideas is it a motif problem are the dec and apollo versions of motif incompatible or something to do with xkeysymdb xterms run fine on dec displaying on apollo arggh i need to run dxterm because the package we are using on the dec s oracle case uses dxterm by default and we have a lab of apollo workstations we would like to run oracle from andrew alf leahy alf st nepean uws edu au andrew alf leahy phone w irc pepsi alf uni western sydney nepean remote email alf st nepean uws edu au sydney australia local email alf
comp.windows.x	xalloccolor fails to return nearest match posted for a friend okay i looked through the faqs and didn t see this but i know its come up before xalloccolor is supposed to do the following in order try to find an exact match read only color cell within hardware limits try to allocate a read only colorcell and set it to match and when all else fails return the colorcell with the best match from the read only colors already allocated in the colormap this sounds good in theory it doesn t seem to work this way though if there is no exact match already in the colormap and no unallocated cells then xalloccolor fails even when it has already allocated several other cells already and there are dozens of read only cells already in the colormap is this a bug a feature a misunderstanding on my part any help appreciated noel ngorelic speclab cr usgs gov
comp.windows.x	re xlib for ms windows not an xserver in article apr topgun smikes topgun steven mikes writes another company congruent corporation of new york city has also ported xlib xt and motif over to ms windows nt which provides full client development for x applications in an nt environment could someone please send me the postal and email address of congruent corporation and any competitors they may have thank you snail lsl co uk washing one s hands of the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means to side with the powerful not to be neutral quote by freire poster by oxfam
comp.windows.x	re xcopyplane question in article whaley apr sigma kpc com whaley sigma kpc com ken whaley writes as per your question why not have the button handler add the object and then call the window redraw or whatever directly although depending this design will work but i don t think it can take easily take advantage of expose event redraw optimization that is the whole window will be redrawn not just the area with the new item p s i m replying here because my your mailer didn t agree with the return address whaley sigma kpc com
comp.windows.x	problem with libararies i have been trying to compile some source code for a mpeg animation viewer for x windows i got the code from a ftp site i have modified the makefile as they instructed no errors there what happens is that i get the following message when everything is going to be linked cc util o video o parseblock o motionvector o decoders o fs o fs fast o fs o hybrid o hybriderr o x o gdith o gray o mono o main o jrevdct o bit o util o ordered o ordered o mb ordered o lib libx so lib libxext so lm o mpeg play undefined first referenced symbol in file getnetpath lib libx so t alloc lib libx so t unbind lib libx so t open lib libx so t rcvdis lib libx so netdir free lib libx so t error lib libx so netdir getbyname lib libx so getnetconfigent lib libx so t look lib libx so t errno lib libx so t close lib libx so netdir getbyaddr lib libx so t listen lib libx so t rcv lib libx so setnetpath lib libx so t bind lib libx so t connect lib libx so t accept lib libx so nc perror lib libx so inet addr lib libx so ld mpeg play fatal error symbol referencing errors no output written to mpeg play error code bu make fatal error does anyone know where these missing functions are located if you do can you help me with it i posted before to one of the other unix groups i tried their suggestions but always get this error if you have to know i am using unix system v the machines here are s the terminals i want to use are separate and just called x terminals and they seem dedicated to that i m not sure as to what they really are since it is one of my first times out with this x windows gidget that is first time programming for it so to speak i use them alot just for the graphics things if you can help mail me soon gerard
comp.windows.x	x intrinsic mailing list as we don t get a newsfeed i was wondering whether there was such a thing as a xt mailing list other than xpert expo lcs mit edu i would appreciate any info on this or x related mailing lists thanks in advance leon leon thrane telephone dimatrix aps fax lyngby hovedgade d e mail leon dimatrix dk dk lyngby denmark or uunet dimatrix dk leon
comp.windows.x	re xt intrinsics slow popups in article minster york ac uk cjhs minster york ac uk writes the application creates window with a button quit and press me the button press me pops up a dialog box the strange feature of this program is that it always pops up the dialog box much faster the first time if i try to pop it up a nd time rd th time it is much slower the shell is waiting for the window manager to respond to its positioning request the window manager is not responding because it thinks the window is already in the right place exactly why the two components get into this sulk is unclear to me all information greatly received bryan
comp.windows.x	xdm decnet does xdm work with decnet i have an ultrix machine running both tcp ip and decnet i have a number of x terminals hanging off the ultrix host also running tcp ip and decnet presently i am using xdm for the login procedure on the x terminals using tcp ip since xdm is basically just an x windows client shouldn t i be able to run xdm on the decnet protocol tower as well my first inclination is that xdm is not your typical x client it is making tcp ip specific socket calls in this case the answer would be no you can not run xdm over decnet is this right or not any feedback is appreciated thanks
comp.windows.x	re compiling on sun in article qfe wb qzz ez andrew cmu edu wilson swee ws n andrew cmu edu writes i have a piece of x code that compiles fine on pmax ul pmax mach as well as sun mach but whenever it compiles on sun it gives me undefined ld errors sin cos pow floor get wmshellwidgetclass get applicationshellwidgetclass the following libraries that i linked it to are lxaw lxmu lxt lxext lx the makefile is generated off an imake template can anyone give me pointers as to what i m missing out to compile on a sun well the first are easy you need the math library try adding lm after lx don t know if that s the whole problem but it s a start daniel j mccoy space i net inc nasa mail code pt is tel nasa johnson space center our fax houston texas future mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov
comp.windows.x	keyboard map for uk type keyboard under x r hi does anyone have a keyboard map for a sun uk type keyboard for use under x r thanks nigel nigel r ellis artificial intelligence group n r ellis durham ac uk computer science university of durham phne durham england dh le fax
comp.windows.x	top motif applications hello everybody i am searching for business information of motif applications to create a top of most used wordprocessors spreadsheets drawing programs schedulers and fax programs etc please mail me all your information or references i will summaries the results on this media thank you in advance anton de ruiter digital equipment corporation workgroup products wgp objectworks obw ing anton de ruiter mba software product manager post office box ae apeldoorn the netherlands oude apeldoornseweg nr apeldoorn the netherlands mail hlde ruiter a dtn location apd f a internet aruit idca tds philips nl uucp mcsun philapd aruit phone business phone private fax
comp.windows.x	gcc and building the hp widget set on linux i am currently attempting to get a copy of the hp widget set compiled under linux sls release with kernel and am running into some problems actually it seems that this is more of a gcc question because i got it to compile without trouble using cc on an rs basically there are a number of functions with prototypes set up in let s say compositep h for instance the composite widget s insert child procedure is set up with the type typedef void xtwidgetproc widget but in several places in the hp source code they reference the insert child procedure and pass it multiple arguments instead of just one as the prototype suggests for example superclass composite class insert child w args p num args now gcc chokes on this giving an error message that too many arguments are passed to the function so does anyone have any suggestions as to how to turn off this checking in gcc or how i can go about changing the code to accomodate this call without changing usr include x compositep h or has anyone successfully built the hp widget set and have any suggestions many thanks in advance for any help bill woodward wpwood austin ibm com try this first aix software support billw aixwiz austin ibm com graphics group i am the terror that flaps in the night
comp.windows.x	problem r server hangs on sun i recently compiled the x r pl sources using gcc on a sun everything seems to work fine usually but at seemingly random times the server will just hang i will click the mouse somewhere never happens while my back is turned and without warning it will freeze there requiring the server to be killed sometimes it will run fine for weeks sometimes only for minutes os frame buffer bw has anyone seen this before any ideas anything at all thanks jeff jeff weisberg weisberg ee rochester edu real cherries ur valhalla weisberg watch for pits
comp.windows.x	re motif vs athena etc in article c k ny azj kirk bu oz au bambi kirk bu oz au david j hughes writes ports of motif to both bsd and linux are available for a fee of about this is cost recovery for the person who bought the rights to redistribute the activity in both the bsd and linux news groups pertaining to motif has been high i ve heard about that italian guy distributing motif binaries for bsd but i haven t heard of anybody doing the same thing for linux and i do follow the linux news group pretty closely so have i missed something i d love to get hold of motif libs for linux for regards joe pannon
comp.windows.x	xdm xsession woes i ve just managed to get xdm running from an ncr an svr box running xfree to my ncd xdisplay it s pretty much working but i m encountering a weird error i m attempting to start an xterm from my xsession file but nothing happens redirecting stderr to a file using exec home xerrors in xsession reveals the error message xterm error errno not owner now if i start xterm from the window manager or from the command line it works fine and starting other clients like the window manager mwm and a clock from my xsession also works anyone encountered this suggestions atdhvaannkcse des herriott as a wise man once said micro focus newbury it takes a lot of brains to be smart dnh mfltd co uk but it takes some neck to be a giraffe
comp.windows.x	re mwm title drag crashes x server sigpipe in article creatures cs vt edu ramakris csgrad cs vt edu s ramakrishnan writes environment mach arch sparc sun ipx os sunos x x r patchlevel motif i bring up x server using startx and usr bin x xsun the following sequence of actions crashes the x server sigpipe errno xinit reports that connexion to x server lost i had this problem as well it had to do with the cg graphics card that comes with the ipx what fixed the problem for me was to apply the sungx uu that was part of patch patch also used this file so perhaps you didn t apply the one that came with patch jeff jeff w boote boote ncar ucar edu scientific computing division there is nothing good or bad national center for atmospheric research but thinking makes it so boulder hamlet
comp.windows.x	re how do i find my appcontext in article qvatv ic pandora sdsu edu masc ucsnews sdsu edu todd greene writes is there an xt call to give me my application context i am fixing up an x motif program and am trying to use xtappaddtimeout whose first argument is the app context what call can i use to give me this value you can get the applicationcontext associated with a widget by calling xtwidgettoapplicationcontext ian hogg ianhogg cs umn edu
comp.windows.x	re mysterious beeping in article c qtkk wp cup hp com defaria cup hp com andy defaria writes article crossposted from hp windows author was andy defaria posted on mon apr gmt for some reason the following code causes my x application to beep whenever i intercept a keystroke and change it s meaning the intent of this code it to allow date fields the following special keys tt insert today s date bump day up by one bump day down by one i hardcoded some dates for this example perhaps i shouldn t be using an xmtext field for this for some reason the following code beeps whenever any of the special keys of tt are hit why the idea of this code is to interpret these keys having the special meaning implied by the code i would like to get rid of the beeping but as far as i can tell i m not doing the beep and am at a lose as to understanding who and why the beeping is occuring code deleted from the xmtextfield man page during discussion of resources xmnverifybell specifies whether a bell will sound when an action is reversed during a verification callback you are setting doit to false in the callback and text field is beeping as it should to turn off this behavior set this boolean resource to false tom mcfarland tommc cv hp com
comp.windows.x	how get fontname from fonstruct anyone know how an application can retrieve the name of the font from an application given an xfontstruct would xgetfontproperty work if i passed xa font name anyone know details of this thanks in advance brian brian dealy it not knowing where it s at dealy kong gsfc nasa gov that s important it s knowing uunet dftsrv kong dealy where it s not at b dylan
comp.windows.x	re xlock in article qvir idi lll winken llnl gov dale wente llnl gov dale m slone writes dale i found an oddity with our sgi indigo mips r chip dale when xlock nolock is running and i am working remotely dale or in batch at mode the runtime of my programs as timed dale by using clock in the code itself is slower than if dale xlock is not running no other processes seem to affect my dale runtimes yet this is very consistent unless you run xlock mode blank xlock consumes cpu time generating the nice animated display the code you are running is competing with xlock for the cpu if you run top via a remote login you can really see what is going on scott henry scotth sgi com help my disclaimer is missing networking services gigo really means garbage in gospel out silicon graphics inc
comp.windows.x	re xterm w ansi color mouse support brown ftms uucp vidiot writes in article apr vms huji ac il klony vms huji ac il writes i ve had several requests to post any information i ve gathered regarding my search for ansi mouse color xterm source my only response was from larry w virden who writes the mit x r and r both provide mouse escape sequences now there are several color xterm enhancements on export lcs mit edu contrib indeed i found color xterm tar z in that directory along with lots of other fun stuff for x thanks larry i also found it on uunet in pub window sys x contrib for those that can only do anonuucp like me but i noticed that the thing is dated making it over two years old is this really the latest version are we talking about an xterm which would accept the same escape sequences as that for vt or colour decterm dxterm i thought that was called colxterm and my testing of it shows some oddities that might be bugs or might be my program going wrong i m also unsure of what is meant by ansi mouse xterm
comp.windows.x	comp windows x intrinsics i am having a problem with the high order bit of a character being clipped when entered in an xterm window under motif i have reprogrammed the f key to transmit a ff be character sequence by using the following line in xdefaults ctrl shift alt key f string xff string xbe n i merge in this line with xrdb merge and then create the new xterm which has the remapped f key the problem that arises is that the application which is recieving input at the time only sees a f e sequence which is ff be with the high order bit of each character being filtered or ignored when i run xev and press the f key i get the correct value showing up in the following two key events keypress event serial synthetic no window x root x subw x time root state x keycode keysym xffbe f same screen yes xlookupstring gives characters keyrelease event serial synthetic no window x root x subw x time root state x keycode keysym xffbe f same screen yes xlookupstring gives characters notice that the keysym being transmitted is correct xffbe but when i use the f key while in vi or in a program i wrote to spit back the hex values of keyboard input i only get f e does anyone know why the high order bit is being filtered and what i can do to make sure that the entire bits make it through to the final application any help is greatly appreciated please email any responses jim kavitsky kavitsky hsi com
comp.windows.x	re mix gl with x xlib xt mwm yes it s possible in fact there s some gl widget code in usr lpp gl somewhere it s named glib c my ibm s down right now though so i can t find the exact location warning this code feels quite bogus it does things like calling noport before winopen and then extracting an x window id from it anyway it worked just fine under aix i spent last weekend trying to port it to gl under doesn t seem to like it and it s turning into a hard job check out your info pages it has some pretty good documentation on whan you can and can t do when mixing gl and x and how to go about doing so rob
comp.windows.x	faq for this group could some kind soul point me in the right direction for the faq list for this group thanks saad mufti personal library software e mail mufti pls com
comp.windows.x	re xalloccolor fails to return nearest match in article slate mines colorado edu agallagh slate mines colorado edu gallagher andrea j writes posted for a friend okay i looked through the faqs and didn t see this but i know its come up before xalloccolor is supposed to do the following in order try to find an exact match read only color cell within hardware limits try to allocate a read only colorcell and set it to match and when all else fails return the colorcell with the best match from the read only colors already allocated in the colormap where did you hear this if it is printed in a book somewhere throw away the book according to the mit specs only the first are true ken lee klee synoptics com
comp.windows.x	need font family weight and slant from instance of a widget how can i get the font family weight and slant from an instance of a widget using initfontcontext getnextfont and freefontcontext i can get the size of the font and a bunch of other stuff concerning the font but nowhere have i found family weight and slant assume that i do not have access to the source where family weight and slant were orginaly used when creating a fontlist thanks a bunch and have a great day carl carl softsolut com
comp.windows.x	re transparent widgets how in article aa ntep ntep tmg nec co jp cerna ntep tmg nec co jp alexander cerna sv writes i need to write an application which does annotation notes on existing documents the annotation could be done several times by different people the idea is something like having several acetate transparencies stacked on top of each other so that the user can see through all of them i ve seen something like this being done by the oclock client could someone please tell me how to do it in xt thank you very much the oclock widget was written using the shape extension you can do the same in your widgets few current widgets support shape so you ll have to subclass them to add that functionality ken lee klee synoptics com
comp.windows.x	re mix gl with x xlib xt mwm in article aa sparc jade com graham sparc ottawa jade com jay graham writes i am developing an x xt xm application that will include a graphics window of some sort with moving symbols among other things a pure x application could be implemented with motif widgets one of which would be an xmdrawingarea for drawing with xlib but i would like to take advantage of the graphics library gl available on our ibm rs sgi s gl i believe is it possible to mix x and gl in one application program can i use gl subroutines in an xmdrawingarea or in an x window opened by me with xopenwindow there is a widget already defined for gl it is the glxmdraw motif or glxdraw athena widget it is similar to a xmdrawingarea except that it allows you to use gl calls to render into the window look at glxlink glxunlink glxgetconfig and glxwinset in the man pages i have never used gl before but the doc on gl winopen says that the first time winopen is called it opens a connection to the server also most of the gl calls do not require a display or gc unlike most x calls from this initial information it appears that x and gl cannot be mixed easily is this true the glxmdraw widget works pretty well opengl will be an improvement does pex graphigs have the same functionality of gl i think gl is a little easier to use and a little more powerful but that s just an opinion mileage may vary larry d pyeatt the views expressed here are not internet pyeatt texaco com those of my employer or of anyone voice that i know of with the possible exception of myself
comp.windows.x	re monthly question about xcopyarea and expose events in article buzz apr lion bear com buzz bear com buzz moschetti writes nd posting of the question that just doesn t seem to get answered suppose you have an idle app with a realized and mapped window that contains xlib graphics a button widget when pressed will cause a new item to be drawn in the window this action clearly should not call xcopyarea or equiv directly instead it should register the existence of the new item in a memory structure and let the same expose event handler that handles regular expose events e g window manager driven exposures take care of rendering the new image using an expose event handler is a proper way to do this because at the time the handler is called the xlib window is guaranteed to be mapped the problem of course is that no expose event is generated if the window is already visible and mapped what we need to do is somehow tickle the window so that the expose handler is hit with arguments that will enable it to render just the part of the window that contains the new item what is the best way to tickle a window to produce this behavior to incrementally update the contents of windows i use the following trick set the window background to none call xcleararea display window true restore the window background to its correct value the call to xcleararea does not repaint the window background but still generates exposure events for visible parts of the window in order to let my application know that these expose events must be handled incrementally something is already displayed on the screen and may need to be erased i encapsulate the operations with self addressed client messages which preserve asynchronicity between the client and the server xgrabserver display client message start incremental background none xcleararea restore background client message end incremental xungrabserver display the grabserver prevents other events to be inserted by the server in the critical section vincent prunet sema group sophia antipolis inria bp sophia antipolis cedex france prunet sophia inria fr fax
comp.windows.x	sparc ipc sprite goes off screen environment x r motif sun ipc problem when mouse is moved across screen horizontally the sprite goes off of the edge of the screen and reappears at the other edge it appears that the server thinks we are running in multi screen mode the cursor seems to wrap from one side of the screen to the other as far as we can tell we are not running the server in multi screen mode please reply via e mail ray bentz phone bluestone consulting inc fax church street uunet uunet blustone bentz mount laurel nj internet blustone bentz uunet uu net
comp.windows.x	re xcopyplane question in article buzz apr lion bear com buzz bear com buzz moschetti write in article whaley apr sigma kpc com whaley sigma kpc com ken whaley writes actually i must also ask the faq s most popular reason why graphics don t show up do you wait for an expose event before drawing your rectangle suppose you have an idle app with a realized and mapped window that contains xlib graphics a button widget when pressed will cause a new item to be drawn in the window this action clearly should not call xcopyarea or equiv directly instead it should register the existence of the new item in a memory structure and let the expose event handler take care of rendering the image because at that time it is guaranteed that the window is mapped the problem of course is that no expose event is generated if the window is visible and mapped do you know the best way to tickle a window so that the expose event handler will be invoked to draw this new item what does this have to do with my original question i previously stated that i did an xcopyarea of the depth pixmap to the screen just to make sure that my image had data and it did this is not a problem with expose events it has to do with xcopyplane not working does anyone have a code fragment they could send demonstrating that xcopyplane works this would be very helpful thanks what it has to do with your original question is this many times beginning x users heck experienced x users too write small test programs many times they forget to draw only in response to expose events and thus see unpreditable results whereby sometimes the application s graphics show up and sometimes they don t we re just trying to eliminate all the easy explanations for why you re not seeing your graphics that being said why don t you try copying different planes to your window other than try to see it you get any output since you re dipslaying only a single plane of your data it s possible that all the pixel values in your pixmap have the same value for that color plane ken kenneth whaley kubota pacific computer inc email whaley kpc com walsh avenue santa clara ca
comp.windows.x	re running dxterm s onto apollo from dec apollo dn domain os x r motif i think you are running xapollo it s a x r server if you want a x r server you should install pskq or so you can run xdomain i get these errors appearing on the decstation dxterm x toolkit warning cannot convert string key apchardel to type virtualbinding segmentation fault any ideas is it a motif problem are the dec and apollo versions of motif incompatible or something to do with xkeysymdb in xkeysymdb you could add apollo specific keysyms aplinedel ff apchardel ff apcopy ff apcut ff appaste ff apmove ff apgrow ff apcmd ff apshell ff apleftbar ff aprightbar ff a apleftbox ff b aprightbox ff c apupbox ff d apdownbox ff e appop ff f apread ff apedit ff apsave ff apexit ff aprepeat ff apkp parenleft ffa apkp parenright ffa victor victor hpfrcu france hp com oooo o oooo victor gattegno be yourself and not what people expect you to be
comp.windows.x	x graphics accelerators how can i obtain public information documentation and sources about xservers implemented with graphics processors i am specially interested in xservers developed for the tms texas instruments graphic processor please send answer to arana labein es
comp.windows.x	tvtwm xsetroot x r and sparc keyboard hi please reply to me direct as i am not a member of this list i am new to x so please excuse my lax read probably incorrect terminology environment sun sparc sunos x r path level my x process is started by xdm i i want to setup the backgroud root window of the tvtwm display to display the escherknot etc grey is a very boring colour to work on the setup is as follows lib x xdm xsetup xsetroot bitmap etc user xsession xsetroot etc tvtwm there are also tvtwmrc and xdefaults files in the user home directory the xsetroot in xsetup displays the appropriate bitmap in the xdm login window as expected very nice unfortunately when the users session is started the background of the tvtwm window reverts to grey if i manually type xsetroot in an xterm window when the session has started the background is changed as expected the question is how do i retain the background from the login window and or specify a new background on a per user basis as part of the the users session startup ii when i open an xterm on the sparc not all of the keys are recognised and some keys on the keyboard are not sending the correct characters ie real key key shown on screen hash back slash tilde pipe double quote at symbol pound hash cursor key not recognised this is very annoying is x at fault here or the machine setup i have installed the xterm drivers that came with x r in both terminfo and termcap as they seemed more uptodate typing set in an xterm window shows a terminal type of xterm as expected any help on how to correct either of these problems much appreciated thanks dave janet d haywood uk ac sheffield hallam dave haywood or d haywood uk ac shu computer services internet d haywood shu ac uk sheffield hallam university telex shpoly g pond street tel sheffield s wb england fax x i d s haywood o sheffield hallam prmd uk ac admd c gb x c gb o sheffield hallam university ou computer services cn dave haywood
comp.windows.x	re tvtwm xsetroot x r and sparc keyboard in article mailqueue oak shu ac uk d haywood sheffield hallam ac uk writes hi environment sun sparc sunos x r path level my x process is started by xdm okay that s good i m typing this from exactly the same setup us unix layout keyboard i did install the sunkbd patch though i i want to setup the backgroud root window of the tvtwm display to display the escherknot etc grey is a very boring colour to work on make sure you re using ssetroot which comes with tvtwm when tvtwm starts up it nukes the existing root window use an ssetroot after tvtwm starts up you could spawn off a sleep ssetroot you can also use virtualdesktopbackgroundpixmap filename or just virtualdesktopbackground if you just want another color besides grey ii when i open an xterm on the sparc not all of the keys are recognised and some keys on the keyboard are not sending the correct characters did you install the sunkbd patch it s in the contrib directory on export all the keys on my keyboard send events properly except the following the end pageup pagedown on the key cluster aren t recognized even the compose key works though i can t seem to get the composed characters in an xterm to get passed anyone have a fix for the last two dave system administrator penn state population research institute dog dianetics woof woof woof page kibo
comp.windows.x	imake help needed hi can someone please give me some pointers to setting up imake in a sun openwindows enviornment i ve checked through all the documentation but can not find any clues please respons via e mail thanks paul paul byrne british aerospace defence ltd dynamics division email paul byrne def bae co uk fpc p o box filton phone bristol bs qw
comp.windows.x	help setting colormaps on multi top level app dear sgi and netter gl x mixed model experts i am writing a mixed model application that creates a couple different color maps for different windows and i ve been having trouble getting the window manager to reliably honor my requests in some environments entry level r indigo w all windows are getting properly connected to their designated color maps but on others an iris d gtx also a different entry level indigo the color mapping is unreliable and changes behavior when i compile at different times the most common problem is that all non top level windows fail to be displayed according to their colormap my application starts out by creating three top level windows in some cases all but the first of these also fail to be displayed by their colormap this is spectacularly aggravating i would dearly appreciate an explanation of the standard right correct way to give a window a colormap such that the window manager will honor and obey it any advice about problems that could cause my failure to get my desired colormaps by now i have exhausted my own attempts on this having tried everything reasonable or imaginable below is example code giving the schematic for how i have been trying to do this please please please somebody tell me what i am doing wrong how to do it right yours chris lee display dpy declare some data colormap popup cmap xcolor mycolor window win xsetwindowattributes cwa int nwlist window wlist nb for brevity not showing all code lines just a schematic popup cmap xcreatecolormap dpy defaultrootwindow dpy vis visual allocall here we store a bunch of colors using xstorecolor dpy popup cmap mycolor cwa colormap popup cmap win xcreatewindow dpy parent x y w h borderwidth vis depth inputoutput vis visual cwcolormap cwborderpixel cwa list all sub windows of my topwin parent of win into wlist nwlist is counter of entries in wlist nb wlist is static storage that can be relied on not to go away or be corrupted i thought of that does anyone know if setting wm properties is by data copy or by reference pointer ie is it acceptable to pass data for a property then free the data xsetwmcolormapwindows dpy my topwin wlist nwlist xmapraised display win later on we handle xevents normally typical eventloop
comp.windows.x	xfree and esix hello netlanders i am a novice x user with a question for any xgod my computer configuration with the x problem is as follows dx ram running esix wangtek at style interface m tape drive i have loaded the basic os which includes nsu and inet utilities tcp ip i ftp ed the xfree x r binaries and installed properly i can execute startx and run x windows with no problems however if i try to access the tape drive while in x the machine locks up instantly if i am out of x and access the tape the tape drive works fine soon as i try to startx again the screen changes modes but the grey background pattern does not come up and no xterm is forked i have to login from another terminal and execute a shutdown to reset the system i ve contacted esix about this problem they claim their x window x r server which i have works with the wangtek tape drive they also claim i only need the nsu network system utilities to run x i don t need inet tcp ip my experience has been that i need both to get xfree to work i m not too concerned about having to load both nsu and inet packages to get x to work unless the inet package is causing my problem i would like to get both x and my tape drive to co exist on the same system if you can shed any light on the problem it would be appreciated one colleague implied this might be a hardware conflict if this is true what direction should i look to resolve the conflict thanks kenneth cobler ksc ihlpv att com at t bell laboratories shuman blvd naperville il
comp.windows.x	cursors according to the osf motif style guide one should use cursor shapes to give the user a visual clue of what is happening or what is expected of him so a hourglass cursor should be shown when the application is busy or a caution cursor should be shown over an area when input is expected in another defining cursors for widgets has to be done at rather low level so defining a cursor for all widgets in an application but not for a certain subpart of it is a rather complicated matter when cursors have been defined for some windows e g a crosswire cursor for a drawingarea things get even more complicated my intuition says that things should be easier but is this so if anyone has a solid and complete solution to my problem please let me know the topics on busy cursors in the several faq s are not helpful since they only work for applications where all windows have the cursor window attribute set to none hans geurtsen phone nucletron research bv e mail hgn nuclint nl surface waardgelder nl th veenendaal
comp.windows.x	how can i detect local vs remote display settings i am trying to find out if my application is running on a local or a remote display a local display being connected to the same system that the client is executing on i have access to the display string but can i tell from the string if the client is executing on host foo then unix foo and localhost are all local under ultrix i believe that local is also a valid display name a shared memory connection maybe are there other strings that i should check for is there a better way to detect this thank you for any help you can give me jim atkinson wavefront technologies inc jra wti com what me a company spokesperson get real life is not a spectator sport
comp.windows.x	running x on a pc at home talking to a host over serial line some time back i asked for software recommendations to allow me to run x from my pc at home to my sparc at the office many thanks for all replies the majority of people recommended pcxremote from ncd i received it yesterday and installed it on my sparc and pc with only one hitch the unix install consists of copying files into some local bin directory on the pc side i ordered the windows version which came with a slick windows installation the only problem i had was that my xinitrc in my home directory had the line display hostname export display s t the clients i kicked off connected to my xserver on the sparc console by removing this line from the xinitrc everything worked as planned and the clients connected to the server at hostname some comments on performance i was connected to a sparc thru a netblazer terminal server over a baud line my pc is a dx ati ultra mb bitmap stuff sucked basic editing and compilation stuff definitely usable xmail was very usable at times the first time u typed in an xclient window there was a very noticable delay i put this down to brain damaged windows should not be called a scheduler besides that this will become my remote work environment for a while has anybody tried the non windows version of the product the sales person said they performed about the same given the over head of windows i question this many thanks for help to all who responded gerard
comp.windows.x	is a headed sun possible cgfour bwtwo i have a sun that has a mono framebuffer bwtwo built on the motherboard the same system also has a cgfour cgfour and bwtwo daughterboard i have been using this system with a color monitor having a color front screen from the cgfour and a mono back screen from the bwtwo both on the same tube i recentley picked up a x sun mono monitor and i would like to make a two headed system with the cgfour and the bwtwo i do not care if i loose the back screen on the color tube from the bwtwo after looking through the xsun man page i am not sure if this is possible has anybody sucessfuly done this before matthew
comp.windows.x	cose gui just what is it they agreed on the cose announcement specifies that motif will become the common gui but what does this mean exactly do they mean that all cose complient apps will have the motif look and feel do they mean that all cose complient apps will use the motif toolkit api do they mean both of the above is it possible that there will be a motif api complient toolkit with an openlook look feel how about an olit xview oi interviews api toolkit with a motif l f i know oi already does this but will this be considered cose complient will there be more than one standard toolkit api or l f supported how does using tooltalk fit in with motif this is my attempt to start a discussion in order to pull as much knowledge about these questions off the net feel free to e mail or followup gil tene some days it just doesn t pay devil imp hellnet org to go to sleep in the morning devil diablery a com
comp.windows.x	xterm problem with input focus shuffle up the situation running a fortran executable that creats an xterm an option in the menu contained in the xterm runs a fortran subroutine that creats a tektronics mode xterm for displaying some graphics typing a ret while the tektronics mode xterm future reference to this will be tek term is active makes the xterm read future keystrokes but does not shift input focus to the xterm i m basing that statement on the fact that the border of the tek term stays the highlighted color and that the tek term stays on top of xterm if what i m describing isn t input focus let me know the xterm can be brought to the top by clicking the mouse button on it subsequent selections from the xterm of the menu item that displays graphics highlihts the border and displays the updated graphics but does not move the tek term to the top if the tek term has been iconized to conserve screen space it stays an icon the desired behavior one of two options whichever of the windows that is active is always on top of the inactive one whenever the tek term is inactivated it should revert to a icon but when it is activated it should become a window on a higher level than the xterm what i think i need a means of specifying that a xterm or tek term will be at the highest level and a way to iconify expand a xterm and tek term these commands would i d guess need to be in the fortran or in the command that starts up the xterm and tek term other information all this is taking place on a vt a dec dumb x windows terminal connected to a vax running vms and motif thanks for your time if you ve got any words of wisdom other than give up please send email to jhcox kodak com
comp.windows.x	dell eisa video cards does xfree support any eisa video cards under dell larry snyder larry gator rn com
comp.windows.x	x device driver for bird has anyone written a device driver to use the ascension bird with xwindows o o o suresh thennarangam email suresh iss nus sg internet research scholar issst nusvm bitnet institute of systems science tel national university of singapore facs heng mui keng terrace telex issnus rs singapore
comp.windows.x	re mix gl with x xlib xt mwm pyeatt texaco com larry d pyeatt writes in article aa sparc jade com graham sparc ottawa jade com jay graham writes xmdrawingarea for drawing with xlib but i would like to take advantage of the graphics library gl available on our ibm rs sgi s gl i believe is it possible to mix x and gl in one application program can i use gl subroutines in an xmdrawingarea or in an x window opened by me with xopenwindow you can t make gl calls in an xmdrawingarea widget for sure there is a widget already defined for gl it is the glxmdraw motif or glxdraw athena widget it is similar to a xmdrawingarea except that it allows you to use gl calls to render into the window look at glxlink glxunlink glxgetconfig and glxwinset in the man pages the glxmdraw widget works pretty well opengl will be an improvement i can vouch for that the gl widget works pretty well i have been using it for sometime now i m not sure though whether you can use xlib calls to draw into the gl widget i haven t tried it yet nor have i read the accompanying documentation completely try posting to comp sys sgi for more information better still you will find most of the answers in the sgi manuals there is a little transition guide which explains the mixed model programming paradigm mixing x and gl does pex graphigs have the same functionality of gl i think gl is a little easier to use and a little more powerful but that s just an opinion mileage may vary well pex is designed as an extension to x and will be more seamless but then it is buggy to start with opinions again o o o suresh thennarangam email suresh iss nus sg internet research scholar issst nusvm bitnet institute of systems science tel national university of singapore facs heng mui keng terrace telex issnus rs singapore
comp.windows.x	re animation with xputimage in article apr dsd es com pmartz dsd es com paul martz writes in article apr infodev cam ac uk dcr mail ast cam ac uk derek c richardson writes hi i m new to this group so please bear with me two years ago i wrote a sunview application for fast animation of raster files with sunview becoming rapidly obselete i ve finally decided to rewrite everything from scratch in xview i put together a quick test and i ve found that xputimage is considerably slower factor of on average than the sunview command pw rop which moves image data from memory pixrects to a canvas this was on a sparc ipx it seems that the x protocol communication is slowing things down or xputimage is inefficient or both using xputimage your source is maintained by the client and the destination is maintained by the server thus you incur the overhead of transporting through whatever client server communications mechanism you are using is it possible for you to maintain your source images in pixmaps these are maintained by the server so copying them into a window is much cheaper also make sure you are not sending any unnecessary xsyncs or running in xsynchonize mode if you need speed and your client can run on the same host as the x server you should use the shared memory extension to the sample x server mit shm xdpyinfo will tell you if your server has this extension this is certainly available with the sample mit x server running under sunos a word of warning make sure your kernel is configured to support shared memory and another word of warning openwindows is slower than the mit server i have written an imaging tool using xview for the gui by the way which yields over frames per second for bit images running on a sparc ipc half the cpu grunt of an ipx this has proved quite sufficient for animations regards richard gooch
comp.windows.x	re high order bit of a character in xterm does anyone know why the high order bit is being filtered and what i can do to make sure that the entire bits make it through to the final application any help is greatly appreciated you need these resources xterm eightbitinput true xterm eightbitoutput true in the shell you need to do stty cs istrip good luck victor x x x x x x victor gattegno email victor hpfrcu france hp com xxx hewlett packard france hpdesk hp rc x x x avenue du canada phone x x x les ulis cedex telnet x x x
comp.windows.x	xquerybestcursor semi broken some one asked me recently why they when they used xquerybestcursor to see if they could create of a given size it seemed to imply they could but the server did not create cursors of that size investigation showed that some x servers will happily return any size up to the size of the root window while others return some fixed limit of more reasonable size the interesting thing to me is that the same server binary acts differently on different hardware a sun with a cg will claim cursors up to root window size are ok while a sun with a cg will stop at x so far i ve also seen this behavior on ncd and phase x x terminals and have been told it also occurs on hps actually the ncd is even more liberal sizes much larger then the root winodw are gladly returned as ok is xquerybestcursor semi broken or is this behavior correct i d really like to see a x cursor richard neitzel thor thor atd ucar edu torren med sitt skjegg national center for atmospheric research lokkar borni under sole vegg box boulder co gjo i med sitt shinn jagar borni inn
comp.windows.x	re xdm decnet does xdm work with decnet i have an ultrix machine running both tcp ip and decnet i have a number of x terminals hanging off the ultrix host also running tcp ip and decnet presently i am using xdm for the login procedure on the x terminals using tcp ip since xdm is basically just an x windows client shouldn t i be able to run xdm on the decnet protocol tower as well xdm is not just an x window client xdm has its own protocol xdmcp that operates of ucp on port it does provide a login window which is an x window client as to using decnet protocol looking through the source for xdm from x r that i have here it seems that the bare bones code is there but not completely there my first inclination is that xdm is not your typical x client it is making tcp ip specific socket calls in this case the answer would be no you can not run xdm over decnet is this right or not any feedback is appreciated thanks from my look at the source it seems you cannot run it over decnet as shipped with x r patrick l mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking a person unnecessarily should not be considered lazarus long a capital crime for a first offense that is from the notebooks of lazarus long
comp.windows.x	xmscale xtaddeventhandler dear xperts i m developing an application that uses a motif slider to select an image file out of a directory now i would like to display the name of the file corresponding to the value of the dragged scale button i e with the mb pressed as xmnshowvalue only displays the current value of the scale button and not the actual corresponding image file name i thought of using an xtaddeventhandler to do the mapping between the scale value and the file name xtaddeventhandler scaleimage button motionmask false slidermoved null and in the eventhandler do a while xchecktypedwindowevent display event window motionnotify return xmscalegetvalue scaleimage value map value to file entry in directory and finally obtain file name to open however when i move the pointer in the scale widget i get callbacks with of co urse a null effect as my mb is not pressed to move the scale button so what is goin g wrong or is the a wrong approach to this problem any hints are highly appreciated phil
comp.windows.x	problem with dni and openwin can anyone help me i am having a problem displaying images greater than bytes from a decwindows program running on a vax and displaying on a sparc ipc running openwindows and dni the program works fine with openwindows the code segment which fails is given below the program simply crashes out with an xlib i o error at the xputimage call ximage ximage ximage xcreateimage mydisplay defaultvisual mydisplay myscreen ddepth zpixmap image xwid ywid xputimage mydisplay mywindow mygc ximage xpos ypos xwid ywid paul jaques systems engineer camborne school of mines rosemanowes herniss penryn cornwall e mail pjaques csm ac uk tel stithians fax
comp.windows.x	wanted info on dedicated x server kernel for sun series if anyone has any information about the existence or location of a dedicated x server kernel for the sun please send email i am trying to put some neglected sun s to good use but they don t have enough memory for sunos thanks in advance for any help max bell i used to think i d emmigrate to escape mbell techbook com the tyrants but now i think i ll stay mbell cie uoregon edu and make them leave instead
comp.windows.x	re available memory to the xserver how to get the actual size hello in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu mouse mcrcim mcgill edu der mouse writes in article igd fhg de pfuetz igd fhg de matthias pfuetzner writes is there a possibility to determine via x protocol calls the size of free memory available to the xserver no even if you could the answer could be out of date even before you get it even if you grab the server it could be taken up by buffering user actions you should just try to do whatever you want a badalloc error is your indication that insufficient server memory is available der mouse this isn t of much help especially when doing phigs pex via the libphigs as supplied by mit i have much trouble together with pex terminals that don t have enough memory performing the following visual visualid copyfromparent bg pix whitepixel grafik display defaultscreen grafik display xswa backing store notuseful xswa event mask exposuremask structurenotifymask xswa background pixel bg pix graphic window xcreatewindow graphic display rootwindow graphic display defaultscreen graphic display displaywidth graphic display defaultscreen graphic display displayheight graphic display defaultscreen graphic display unsigned int inputoutput visual cweventmask cwbackingstore cwbackpixel xswa xmapwindow graphic display graphic window sync and wait for exposure event xsync graphic display false xwindowevent graphic display graphic window exposuremask exposureevent conn display graphic display conn drawable id graphic window xinfo display graphic display xinfo flags no monitor false monitor is running xinfo flags force client ss false popen xphigs null pxphigs info flags no mon pxphigs info flags client ss pxphigs info display xinfo popen ws pconnid conn phigs ws type x drawable i get core dumps in the popen ws call no badalloc etc simply a core dump so i need some way of getting info about the maximal available memory to the xserver but thanks sincerly matthias matthias pfuetzner work home darmstadt frg zgdv wilhelminenstrasse lichtenbergstrasse pfuetzner igd fhg de pfuetzner zgdvda uucp keith packard said r is different from r that s why we changed the release number
comp.windows.x	din fonts hello everybody i hope that i insert the right options so that my question is only distributed through out germany because my question is more or less country dependend now the question is there anybody who can tell my if and of course where there is a ftp site archie or whatever where din fonts for x are available i am looking for fonts holding the specification din din din v thanks in advance juergen schietke research insitute for discrete mathematics university of bonn nassestr bonn germany tel e mail schietke or uni bonn de
comp.windows.x	imake x r cpp problems on aix i am trying to build and use imake x r on an ibm rs running aix v i am having the following problems many of my imakefile s have contructs like this is a makefile at the start of lines to pass makefile comments thru the c preprocessor and into the makefile most of the c preprocessors that i have used will not treat such a as appearing at the start of the line thus the c preprocessor does not treat the hash symbol as the start of a directive however the ibm cpp strips the comment and treats the hash symbol as the start of a directive the cpp fails when it determines that this is not a known directive i have temporarily hacked my imake to handle this situation but would like to come up with a better fix several imakefiles use as a parameter to a macro when a particular use of the macro does not need a value for the parameter the aix cpp gives warnings about these situations but continues to work ok if you are familiar with these problems and have solutions i would appreciate information about on your solutions perhaps this is solved in a later version of imake that i have not reviewed also do you know of other cpp s that behave similarly since i do not have easy access to news a response to white billy po gis prc com would be appreciated
comp.windows.x	motif x on windows nt in article apr topgun smikes topgun steven mikes writes another company congruent corporation of new york city has also ported xlib xt and motif over to ms windows nt which provides full client development for x applications in an nt environment could someone please send me the postal and email address of congruent corporation and any competitors they may have thank you snail lsl co uk washing one s hands of the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means to side with the powerful not to be neutral quote by freire poster by oxfam
comp.windows.x	program argument geometry i have a question regarding the processing of program arguments such as the geometry option since this is a standard x option i m wondering wether i have to parse it manually or whether there is some predefined function that will do this for me thanks for any info robret
comp.windows.x	re drawing lines inverse xor in article apr news media mit edu dyoung media mit edu david young writes xsetfunction mydisplay gc gxxor xsetforeground mydisplay gc drawindex then to draw i do xdrawline mydisplay xtwindow drawingarea gc x y x y xflush mydisplay and when i m all done to return things to normal i do xsetfunction mydisplay gc gxcopy what i d like to happen is for the lines i draw to be the inverse of whatever i m drawing over instead what happens is i get white lines if the lines are over a white background nothing shows up if the lines are over a black area nothing shows up it s very strange but the gxxor function seems right since if i do a rubber banding box it erases and redraws itself correctly ie not disturbing the underlying image any suggestions what i m doing wrong david try change the gxxor to gxequiv i have to do this for programs that are to run on ncd terminals on sun terminals i have to change it back to gxxor kurt
comp.windows.x	crl archive change announcement the multi lingual archives at the computing research labs new mexico state university will be moving to a new ftp address soon the archives are being put under control of the consortium for lexical research the new ftp address will be clr nmsu edu the current ip address is but may change so use clr nmsu edu whenever possible please note that there is a difference between ftp sites crl nmsu edu and clr nmsu edu the crl nmsu edu site will be our ftp site for items not related to the consortium for lexical research the arabic chinese french italian indian japanese korean tibetan and vietnamese archives will all be moved we will announce the new locations of the relevant directories once the archives have been moved please be patient if you discover directories missing when you ftp to either crl nmsu edu or clr nmsu edu it will take a few days to move everything if you are not familiar with our multi lingual archives we have been slowly collecting various software fonts and text for different languages over the past years most of the software is currently unix oriented we would also like to encourage people to continue to contribute items to the archives to help improve the quality and quantity of multi lingual tools if you have an item to contribute please put it in clr nmsu edu incoming and send a note to lexical nmsu edu telling them about your contribution if you have any questions or comments please send them to lexical nmsu edu mleisher nmsu edu mark leisher computing research lab elegance is not optional new mexico state university attributed to richard o keefe box crl las cruces nm
comp.windows.x	subscription please subscribe me to this mailing list michael d grapevine one of these days usn swc one of these days code g pow grape suned nswses navy mil it s gonna happen bus and i won t even realize it
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comp.windows.x	re forcing a window manager to accept specific coordinates for a window try this after xcreatewindow include x xutil h display display window window xsizehints xsizehints xallocsizehints xsizehints flags usposition ussize or pposition psize xsizehints x xsizehints y xsizehints width xsizehints height xsetwmnormalhints display window xsizehints xfree xsizehints these hints tell the window manager that the position and size of the window are specified by the users and that the window manager should accept these values if you use xsizehints flags pposition psize this tells the window manager that the values are prefered values of the program not the user i don t know a window manager that doesn t place the window like you prefer if you specify the position and size like above greetings from berlin tobias bading cs tu berlin de
comp.windows.x	automated x testing does anyone know what is available in terms of automated testing of x motif applications i am thinking of a system which i could program or which could record events output with our verification test procedures and then run rerun each time we do regression testing i am interested in a product like this for our unix projects and for a separate project which will be using openvms mark d collier southwest research institute senior research analyst automation and data systems division voice data systems department fax software engineering section
comp.windows.x	re is a headed sun possible cgfour bwtwo in article r mg r fitz tc cornell edu matthew alchemy tn cornell edu matthew kleinmann writes i have a sun that has a mono framebuffer bwtwo built on the motherboard the same system also has a cgfour cgfour and bwtwo daughterboard i have been using this system with a color monitor having a color front screen from the cgfour and a mono back screen from the bwtwo both on the same tube i recentley picked up a x sun mono monitor and i would like to make a two headed system with the cgfour and the bwtwo i do not care if i loose the back screen on the color tube from the bwtwo after looking through the xsun man page i am not sure if this is possible has anybody sucessfuly done this before if it s any consolation i have two headed sun systems though the color and mono monitors for each are rated x their configuration is the same as yours so it should be a plug n play situation except i don t know if your hi res mono monitor will function this way however you may simply be able to pull the motherboard and set the hi res jumper located in the same jumper array as the jumpers for the ram simm selects and ethernet connection and be happily on your way when you pull the motherboard the jumpers are in the left rear e g north west quadrant of the motherboard to the left of the simm sockets thad floryan thad btr com thad cup portal com thad netcom com
comp.windows.x	re title for xterm in article quh r irz inf tu dresden de beck irzr inf tu dresden de andre beck writes in article c ol b aeon in berlin de thomas aeon in berlin de thomas wolfram writes hey guys i work on many stations and would like this name and current logname to be in a title of xterm when it s open and a machine name only when it s closed in other words i want host and logname to appear as a title of opened xterm and host when xterm is closed how can i do it almost all window managers twm mwm olwm and their derivates support escape sequences for it for your purpose put following into your login if you re using csh or tcsh for sh you have to modify it if term xterm then echo logname host g host g endif this is not a feature of the window manager but of xterm this sequences are not ansi compatible are they does anyone know if there are compatible sequences for this and what they are i would think they are dcs device control sequence introduced but may be a csi sequence exists too this must work on a dxterm vt and ansi compatible it may not work on xterms it works on xterms at least i have no problem with it back to the original question i usually start new xterms by selecting the proper menu entry in my desktop menu here is a sample command xterm sl n ls i title ls i e rlogin ls i the n and title options give the text for window and icon as i use the tcsh a wonderful extension of the csh i can do the following i have an alias precmd echo n host cwd g in my tcshrc this is a special alias for tvtwm it is executed each time before printing the prompt so i have the current host name and the current directory path in the title bar of my xterms unido ingolf markhof university of dortmund ls informatik xii p o box d dortmund f r germany phone fax email markhof ls informatik uni dortmund de
comp.windows.x	need shading program example in x do anyone know about any shading program based on xlib in the public domain i need an example about how to allocate correct colormaps for the program appreciate the help howard
comp.windows.x	re title for xterm in article r fe inn d fbi news informatik uni dortmund de markhof ls r informatik uni dortmund de ingolf markhof writes in article quh r irz inf tu dresden de beck irzr inf tu dresden de andre beck writes in article c ol b aeon in berlin de thomas aeon in berlin de thomas wolfram writes hey guys i work on many stations and would like this name and current logname to be in a title of xterm when it s open and a machine name only when it s closed in other words i want host and logname to appear as a title of opened xterm and host when xterm is closed how can i do it almost all window managers twm mwm olwm and their derivates support escape sequences for it for your purpose put following into your login if you re using csh or tcsh for sh you have to modify it if term xterm then echo logname host g host g endif this is not a feature of the window manager but of xterm this sequences are not ansi compatible are they does anyone know if there are compatible sequences for this and what they are i would think they are dcs device control sequence introduced but may be a csi sequence exists too this must work on a dxterm vt and ansi compatible it may not work on xterms it works on xterms at least i have no problem with it back to the original question i usually start new xterms by selecting the proper menu entry in my desktop menu here is a sample command xterm sl n ls i title ls i e rlogin ls i the n and title options give the text for window and icon as i use the tcsh a wonderful extension of the csh i can do the following i have an alias precmd echo n host cwd g in my tcshrc this is a special alias for tvtwm it is executed each time before printing the prompt so i have the current host name and the current directory path in the title bar of my xterms have you gotten an answer yet using your variables this is what i would do xterm t host logname n host daniel j mccoy space i net inc nasa mail code pt is tel nasa johnson space center our fax houston texas future mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov
comp.windows.x	function key to text string translation i want to press a function key and have a text string appear in an xmtext widget when i put xmtext translations augment n key f insert string hello in my resource file the translation doesn t happen if i put xmtext translations key f insert string hello in the file i get the text string hello when f is pressed but no other keys work which makes sense since the default translation mode is replace do i have a syntax problem here or something deeper bill massena wam yak boeing com
comp.windows.x	re animation with xputimage hi i m new to this group so please bear with me two years ago i wrote a sunview application for fast animation of raster files with sunview becoming rapidly obselete i ve finally decided to rewrite everything from scratch in xview i put together a quick test and i ve found that xputimage is considerably slower factor of on average than the sunview command pw rop which moves image data from memory pixrects to a canvas this was on a sparc ipx it seems that the x protocol communication is slowing things down or xputimage is inefficient or both my question is what is the fastest way in x r to dump plane image data to a window can i take advantage of the fact that the client is running on the same machine as the server or am i stuck with xputimage in which case i might as well give up now all help appreciated thanks derek in article infodev cam ac uk dcr mail ast cam ac uk derek c richardson writes derek c richardson tel x institute of astronomy fax cambridge u k cb ha e mail dcr mail ast cam ac uk animation is most frequently done by copying the the client resident ximages into server resident pixmap s using xputimage once this is done the original ximages can be deleted and the animation loop can be performed using xcopyarea from the pixmaps to the windows drawable hope this is helpfull john
comp.windows.x	calling a library which creates widgets multiple times a few days ago i posted a question about trying to call a function which set up an x app multiple times it was pointed out that xtappinitialize should never be called more than once this helped however i am still having some problems below is a new little test program that more closely models my real program in the actual program i am writing a library callable from any other program this means that the first time the lib function is called it must initialize things and after that it should just use the old stuff still around because of static variables in the demo below main represents the main program calling my library and doit represents the interface to the library function include x xlib h include xm xm h include xm pushb h include stdio h include stdlib h void bla xtappcontext app widget top widget topone top in real prog these are member vars xtappcontext theapp app of a class int junk display dis xtopendisplay theapp null null null null junk null widget box xtvacreatemanagedwidget blaaa xmpushbuttonwidgetclass topone xmnheight xmnwidth null xtrealizewidget topone for int i i i real prog returns when exit button clicked xevent event xtappnextevent theapp event xtdispatchevent event xtdestroywidget box xtclosedisplay dis setitup should be called once only void setitup xtappcontext app widget top int junk top xtappinitialize app test null junk null null null doit some library function callable from the outside void doit static xtappcontext app use these every time called static widget top static int setup if setup setitup app top setup bla app top main program which links to my library main for int i i i doit printf sleeping n widget still on screen at this point sleep the problem is that the widget does not go away until the new one is created it is still on the screen unusuable during the sleep in the main prog despite the xtdestroywidget call anyone see something i m missing thanks very much please respond via email david rex wood davewood cs colorado edu university of colorado at boulder
comp.windows.x	repost accelerators translations i posted this a while ago and didn t recieve one reply and now we have another bug report on the same subject can anybody help me out how can you ensure that accelerators work the same independent of case what i want is ctrl o and ctrl o to both be accelerators on one menu entry in ora vol in the section on accelerators it says for information on how to specify translation tables see vol this is so you know what to put for the xmnaccelerator resource if you go to vol it says likewise if a modifier is specified there is nothing to prohibit other modifiers from being present as well for example the translation shift key q quit will take effect even if the ctrl key is held down at the same time as the shift key and the q key this implies to me that setting xmnaccelerator to ctrl key o should do what i want but it doesn t it doesn t work if the user presses the control key the shift key and the o key is it possible to supply accelerator for a menu entry keep in mind when answering this question that when using motif you can t use xtinstallaccelerators i am using motif on a decstation but i have also tried it on an hp using motif and steve dennis internet sdennis ann arbor applicon slb com software engineer applicon inc ann arbor michigan hail to the victors
comp.windows.x	ftp unix dos unix i m an new to this having found some files public to look into i ftp ed them to a system i have access to i then used kermit to transmit them via modem to my host computer a pc based file system i access internet through modem access to a university mainframe from the pc file server i pull the files to a disk and then pull them from disk to a sgi indigo the sgi is not networked yet when i try to uncompress and un tar the files they either come out as garbage or i get an error in the tar process about directories being invalid what i m wondering about is the transfer of unix files compressed binary ascii about multiple platforms my guess is that it is the copy to a dos disk that is screwing things up any help is appreciated bob
comp.windows.x	re animation with xputimage hi everyone does anyone know a good way to adjust colourmaps on the fly say during an animation and prevent the current set of colours from flickering thanks robert robert acsc com
comp.windows.x	re how get fontname from fonstruct in article apr narya gsfc nasa gov dealy narya gsfc nasa gov brian dealy csc writes anyone know how an application can retrieve the name of the font from an application given an xfontstruct would xgetfontproperty work if i passed xa font name anyone know details of this thanks in advance brian brian dealy it not knowing where it s at dealy kong gsfc nasa gov that s important it s knowing uunet dftsrv kong dealy where it s not at b dylan try this char name null unsigned long value if xgetfontproperty font xa font value name xgetatomname dpy value where dpy is your display connection and font your xfontstruct pointer alan richardson you don t have to be school of maths physical sciences old to be wise univ of sussex brighton bn qh england judas priest uk mppa uk ac sussex syma elsewhere mppa syma sussex ac uk
comp.windows.x	re title for xterm in article r fe inn d fbi news informatik uni dortmund de markhof ls r informatik uni dortmund de ingolf markhof writes i have an alias precmd echo n host cwd g in my tcshrc this is a special alias for tvtwm i presume that you meant to say tcsh here michael salmon include standard disclaimer include witty saying include fancy pseudo graphics ericsson telecom ab stockholm
comp.windows.x	re how do i find my appcontext on apr gmt masc ucsnews sdsu edu todd greene said is there an xt call to give me my application context i am fixing up an x motif program and am trying to use xtappaddtimeout whose first argument is the app context what call can i use to give me this value i believe it s xtvaappinitialize or something like that robert l mcmillin surf city software rlm helen surfcty com dude include std disclaimer h
comp.windows.x	re mix gl with x xlib xt mwm on apr graham sparc ottawa jade com jay graham said i am developing an x xt xm application that will include a graphics window of some sort with moving symbols among other things a pure x application could be implemented with motif widgets one of which would be an xmdrawingarea for drawing with xlib but i would like to take advantage of the graphics library gl available on our ibm rs sgi s gl i believe is it possible to mix x and gl in one application program can i use gl subroutines in an xmdrawingarea or in an x window opened by me with xopenwindow in sgi s distribution with their indigo line others as well possibly they include source code for a gl widget that fits on top of motif and one that s xt based as well you may wish to ask ibm whether they support this robert l mcmillin surf city software rlm helen surfcty com dude include std disclaimer h
comp.windows.x	r version of xrecplay i have and use xrecplay for x r does one exist for x r i have tried to contact one of the developers eric swildens at ess hal com but he is no longer there and has no forwarding email address archie is no help either any help would be appreciated thanks daniel j mccoy space i net inc nasa mail code pt is tel nasa johnson space center our fax houston texas future mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov
comp.windows.x	expose configure event handling r vs r i have two questions well probably more about how expose configure events are handled i have an appl which uses window to draw in since i give the user the capability of scaling and zooming as well as allowing the window to be resized i made a translation table for the expose configure events the expose event calls my redraw method while the configure event calls my rescale method the rescale method invokes a fake expose event actually just calls the redraw w an appropriate expose struct to draw the data quest when the appl is compiled linked w r running in either r or r env i get multiple redraws when the window gets uncovered or the size is changed i assume i m getting cascading events is that right any suggestions as to how to handle trap events in a better way quest when the appl is compiled linked w r i get no expose events whatsoever do events and or translation tables act differently in r thanks in advance steve steve kelley umcp cs umiacs captain i protest internet skelley umiacs umd edu i am not a merry man worf
comp.windows.x	looking for a filemanager under x r does anyone have a file manager that runs under unix x r brians brian sheets truck what truck support engineer o o atlas telecom inc raiders of the lost ark brians atlastele com u
comp.windows.x	finding out state of state keys eg capslock and numlock hi i ve looked in the faq and the o reilly books and was unable to find an easy means of finding out the state of state keys such as capslock and numlock i can certainly track the events inside of my window and set a boolean there but what if capslock is pressed in another window i looked at xgrabkey and decided it was definitely not what i wanted to do i could find no convenience function to tell me that information my question is this is there a means of determining what the state of capslock and or numlock is an even more pointed question is there an easy means of making an x keyboard act like a pc keyboard ie capslock is active and the user presses shift a i d like to get a lowercase a instead of a any input is greatly appreciated please respond via email i will repost a summary of my findings thanks ralph
comp.windows.x	store post events store and reply of mouse and keyboard events to produce regression tests or automatic demo s we would like to store all mouse and keyboard events produced by a user it should be possible to filter the mouse and keyboard events from the server s queue an to store them in a file this sequence of events stored in a file should be given to the server s queue as if a user is working exists a tool that is capable to save and reply all mouse and keyboard events where where one can catch these events to store them in our case the server s queue is on a x terminal hp where can we catch all events coming from a given server if this is not possible can we catch all events given to a certain client and how where one can send a stored sequence of events to simulate a user is there a central dispatcher on the clients machine who manages all incoming events from a given server and how can we reach it thanks in advance ron
comp.windows.x	animation with xputimage hi i m new to this group so please bear with me two years ago i wrote a sunview application for fast animation of raster files with sunview becoming rapidly obselete i ve finally decided to rewrite everything from scratch in xview i put together a quick test and i ve found that xputimage is considerably slower factor of on average than the sunview command pw rop which moves image data from memory pixrects to a canvas this was on a sparc ipx it seems that the x protocol communication is slowing things down or xputimage is inefficient or both my question is what is the fastest way in x r to dump plane image data to a window can i take advantage of the fact that the client is running on the same machine as the server or am i stuck with xputimage in which case i might as well give up now all help appreciated thanks derek derek c richardson tel x institute of astronomy fax cambridge u k cb ha e mail dcr mail ast cam ac uk
comp.windows.x	re drawing lines inverse xor in article apr alf uib no singg alf uib no kurt george gjerde writes in article apr news media mit edu dyoung media mit edu david young writes xsetfunction mydisplay gc gxxor xsetforeground mydisplay gc drawindex then to draw i do xdrawline mydisplay xtwindow drawingarea gc x y x y xflush mydisplay and when i m all done to return things to normal i do xsetfunction mydisplay gc gxcopy what i d like to happen is for the lines i draw to be the inverse of whatever i m drawing over instead what happens is i get white lines if the lines are over a white background nothing shows up if the lines are over a black area nothing shows up it s very strange but the gxxor function seems right since if i do a rubber banding box it erases and redraws itself correctly ie not disturbing the underlying image any suggestions what i m doing wrong david try change the gxxor to gxequiv i have to do this for programs that are to run on ncd terminals on sun terminals i have to change it back to gxxor there is a small section in the o reilly xlib books that describes the right thing to do the key is to set the plane mask in the gc to the or of the foreground and background pixel values douglas s rand drand osf org osf motif dev snail cambridge center cambridge ma disclaimer i don t know if osf agrees with me let s vote on it amateur radio kc kj
comp.windows.x	re compiling on sun in article apr aio jsc nasa gov mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov writes in article qfe wb qzz ez andrew cmu edu wilson swee ws n andrew cmu edu writes i have a piece of x code that compiles fine on pmax ul pmax mach as well as sun mach but whenever it compiles on sun it gives me undefined ld errors sin cos pow floor get wmshellwidgetclass get applicationshellwidgetclass the following libraries that i linked it to are lxaw lxmu lxt lxext lx the makefile is generated off an imake template can anyone give me pointers as to what i m missing out to compile on a sun well the first are easy you need the math library try adding lm after lx don t know if that s the whole problem but it s a start i think you should try linking to usr lib libxmu a instead of lxmu at least that solved the problem for me
comp.windows.x	authorization in ow hello this is my first net letter so forgive mistakes i have been plagued by problems or lack of info with authorization in open windows for a long while and would like some help please i generally use strait mit x and so don t use ow much but when i share x software with others bad news problem my friend who logs into his ssii trys to run my program that runs fine on my machine however my friend gets client not authorized to connect to server or something close if ow is started with the noauth option all is well but surely this is not required in general also xhost does not work becoming root does not work etc any help will be greatly appreciated thanx send replies to neuralog neosoft com or this news group
comp.windows.x	re program argument geometry i have a question regarding the processing of program arguments such as the geometry option since this is a standard x option i m wondering wether i have to parse it manually or whether there is some predefined function that will do this for me if you are using the intrinsics it is parsed for you if you are working at the xlib level you can parse it yourself or you can use the following bit of code static xrmoptiondescrec options geometry geometry xrmoptionseparg xpointer null define number x sizeof x sizeof x xrmparsecommand db options number options myapplication argc argv then use xrmgetresource to retrieve the value and parse it using xparsegeometry it is probably quicker to parse it yourself from argv however i much prefer using the x resource management routines to do this patrick l mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking a person unnecessarily should not be considered lazarus long a capital crime for a first offense that is from the notebooks of lazarus long
comp.windows.x	re mwm title drag crashes x server sigpipe in article apr ncar ucar edu boote eureka scd ucar edu jeff w boote writes in article creatures cs vt edu ramakris csgrad cs vt edu s ramakrishnan writes environment mach arch sparc sun ipx os sunos x x r patchlevel motif i bring up x server using startx and usr bin x xsun the following sequence of actions crashes the x server sigpipe errno xinit reports that connexion to x server lost i had this problem as well it had to do with the cg graphics card that comes with the ipx what fixed the problem for me was to apply the sungx uu that was part of patch patch also used this file so perhaps you didn t apply the one that came with patch jeff jeff w boote boote ncar ucar edu scientific computing division there is nothing good or bad national center for atmospheric research but thinking makes it so boulder hamlet thanx jeff you re a lifesaver i imported the new sun gx emulator that came in with patch the problem has since disappeared thanx to der schoene mouse for his help too s ramakrishnan cs dept mcbryde hall vatech
comp.windows.x	re animation with xputimage in article apr infodev cam ac uk dcr mail ast cam ac uk derek c richardson writes hi i m new to this group so please bear with me two years ago i wrote a sunview application for fast animation of raster files with sunview becoming rapidly obselete i ve finally decided to rewrite everything from scratch in xview i put together a quick test and i ve found that xputimage is considerably slower factor of on average than the sunview command pw rop which moves image data from memory pixrects to a canvas this was on a sparc ipx it seems that the x protocol communication is slowing things down or xputimage is inefficient or both using xputimage your source is maintained by the client and the destination is maintained by the server thus you incur the overhead of transporting through whatever client server communications mechanism you are using is it possible for you to maintain your source images in pixmaps these are maintained by the server so copying them into a window is much cheaper also make sure you are not sending any unnecessary xsyncs or running in xsynchonize mode paul pmartz dsd es com evans sutherland
comp.windows.x	xsun not running on sparcclassic i ve installed x r with patches for solaris on our sparcstation lx sparcclassic pool on the lx x r runs fine but on the classics after giving the command startx xsun prints the following messages warning cg mmap can t map dummy space mapping cg c no such device or address and exits does anybody know how to fix this problem thanks in advance christian rank lehrstuhl fuer wirtschaftsinformatik universitaet passau innstr d passau
comp.windows.x	re mix gl with x xlib xt mwm pyeatt texaco com writes there is a widget already defined for gl it is the glxmdraw motif or glxdraw athena widget it is similar to a xmdrawingarea except that it allows you to use gl calls to render into the window look at glxlink glxunlink glxgetconfig and glxwinset in the man pages where do i get hold of these widgets gerard o driscoll gerard odriscoll dps co uk du pont pixel systems ltd
comp.windows.x	x support for pressure sensitive tablet are there any vendors supporting pressure sensitive tablet pen with x i will appreciate any pointers thanks sanjay baldwa adobe com or decwrl adobe baldwa
comp.windows.x	re automated x testing mark d collier mark trident datasys swri edu wrote does anyone know what is available in terms of automated testing of x motif applications i am thinking of a system which i could program or which could record events output with our verification test procedures and then run rerun each time we do regression testing i am interested in a product like this for our unix projects and for a separate project which will be using openvms a question like this is answered in the faq about sharing x windows one of the answers is xtrap a record and playback extenstion to x you can find it at export lcs mit edu contrib xtrapv x r tar z does anyone know of a program which doesn t require an x extension most the the x servers we have at work have vendor extensions which we can t modify so xtrap doesn t help up there is x conferencing software at mit but i don t know how easy it would be to modify it to do record and playback any help would be appreciated bill poitras molecular simulations inc tel bill msi com sunnyvale ca fax ftp mail mail ftpmail decwrl dec com offers ftp via email subject cr help cr quit
comp.windows.x	re need shading program example in x do anyone know about any shading program based on xlib in the public domain i need an example about how to allocate correct colormaps for the program appreciate the help i don t know if this might help but i ve just started playing with a program called povray persistance of vision raytracer that also displays its output via x windows it does a fairly good job of allocating the colormap on my psuedo color plane display i got the source from from a site in canda the person i retrieved them from was david buck dbuck ccs carleton ca patrick l mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking a person unnecessarily should not be considered lazarus long a capital crime for a first offense that is from the notebooks of lazarus long
comp.windows.x	re forcing a window manager to accept specific coordinates for a window in article c r y hfz cs columbia edu ethan cs columbia edu ethan solomita writes hi i m trying to figure out how to make a window manager place the window where the create window command tells it regardless of what it may think is right my application has reason to know better i don t want to set the override redirect because i do want all the embellishments that the window manager gives i just want the wm to accept my choice of location what it may think is right may be exactly what the user wants assuming that your application has reason to know better is imho anti social if i start your application with a geometry option are you going to ignore that as well there s really no way to force a window manager to do much of anything if it s managing your window you can ask you can hint but there s no guarantee that you re going to get what you want tom lastrange toml boulder parcplace com
comp.windows.x	re forcing a window manager to accept specific coordinates for a window in article bading apr athene cs tu berlin de bading cs tu berlin de tobias doping bading writes try this after xcreatewindow include x xutil h display display window window xsizehints xsizehints xallocsizehints xsizehints flags usposition ussize or pposition psize xsizehints x xsizehints y xsizehints width xsizehints height xsetwmnormalhints display window xsizehints xfree xsizehints these hints tell the window manager that the position and size of the window are specified by the users and that the window manager should accept these values if you use xsizehints flags pposition psize this tells the window manager that the values are prefered values of the program not the user i don t know a window manager that doesn t place the window like you prefer if you specify the position and size like above you are right but please don t do this it makes my brain hurt usposition and ussize should only be set if the user specified the position and size you say tom don t blow a gasket what s the harm some window managers do very different things besides positioning the window when they see usposition rather than pposition tom lastrange toml boulder parcplace com
comp.windows.x	re build x r with xlc aix e on apr gmt dla se wg waii com doug acker said doug nntp posting host se wg waii com i am having a big problem trying to build mit x r with xlc the one bundled with aix e its almost the linker is not working properly with shared libraries i ve built x r with no problem before but now its all headaches for example the xset client complains that libxmu doesnt have a bunch of xt routines and shr o is missing or something like that the build of libxmu does link in libxt so i am really perplexed what is going on following up on this the specific error i get is could not load program xset symbol xtvasetvalues in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined symbol xtname in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined symbol xtwindowofobject in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined symbol xtgetconstraintresourcelist in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined symbol xtdisplaytoapplicationcontext in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined symbol xtappsettypeconverter in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined symbol xtscreendatabase in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined symbol xtresolvepathname in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined symbol xtcvtstringtofont in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined symbol xtcallconverter in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined symbol xtdisplaystringconversionwarning in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined could not load library libxmu a shr o error was exec format error douglas l acker western geophysical exploration products a division of western atlas international inc a litton dresser company internet acker wg waii com voice
comp.windows.x	re compiling on sun in article yfo qfe wb qzz ez andrew cmu edu wilson swee ws n andrew cmu edu writes sin cos pow floor link with lm math library get wmshellwidgetclass get applicationshellwidgetclass this is a bug in sun s shared libraries linking with assert nodefinitions should do the trick n
comp.windows.x	re build x r with xlc aix e on apr gmt dla se wg waii com doug acker said doug nntp posting host se wg waii com on apr gmt dla se wg waii com doug acker said doug nntp posting host se wg waii com doug i am having a big problem trying to build mit x r with xlc doug the one bundled with aix e its almost the linker is not doug working properly with shared libraries doug i ve built x r with no problem before but now its all headaches doug for example the xset client complains that libxmu doesnt have a bunch doug of xt routines and shr o is missing or something like that the doug build of libxmu does link in libxt so i am really perplexed what is doug going on doug following up on this the specific error i get is doug could not load program xset doug symbol xtvasetvalues in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined doug symbol xtname in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined doug symbol xtwindowofobject in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined doug symbol xtgetconstraintresourcelist in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined doug symbol xtdisplaytoapplicationcontext in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined doug symbol xtappsettypeconverter in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined doug symbol xtscreendatabase in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined doug symbol xtresolvepathname in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined doug symbol xtcvtstringtofont in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined doug symbol xtcallconverter in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined doug symbol xtdisplaystringconversionwarning in lib xmu libxmu a is undefined doug could not load library libxmu a shr o doug error was exec format error a search on ibmlink revealed that this is similar to ix howervre this was closed use douglas l acker western geophysical exploration products a division of western atlas international inc a litton dresser company internet acker wg waii com voice
comp.windows.x	positioning a window under openlook hi there netters i require a window to appear at a co ordinates top left corner of my screen root window could some windows guru out there help me on how to go about doing this i write the whole program which creates the window with the image it displays i require the image to appear at the top left corner so that i can grab it for recording on to video using a minivas controller which expects the window at the same spot every time thanks in advance sincerely sanjeev sharma office e mail deptt of computing science sharma monet vill edu villanova university
comp.windows.x	tape down selections i just had an idea i m not sure if its been done and i m just remembering it unconsiously but i thought that in dialog boxes and whatever in windowing systems there should be a way to intuitivly set some things checked or unchecked or filled in a certain way my idea tape you know like putting a piece of tape over a light switch just an idea if you like it use it daniel drucker n sxx xyzzy gnu ai mit edu forever forever my coda und dzd vaxc hofstra edu
comp.windows.x	xman source where can i get xman source i would like to get the binaries for xman for an hp but i would settle for source john o f long bnr inc if there is no god who pops jlong bnr ca up the next kleenex include standard disclaimer h art hoppe
comp.windows.x	detecting read only colorcells again poseted for a friend okay i got such great response from my last question thanks everyone lets try again how can i tell if a colorcell is read only i want to use any read only cells that are already in my colormap once i start running out of allocatable cells using some arbitrary nearest color matching scheme to get those cells that come closest to a requested color once i determine if a cell is read only i assume i can then just request an xalloccolor with the exact same color specifications and it will then be flagged as used by my application so that it doesn t later get freed by someone else and allocated again as read write to another application so far the only way i ve figured out to do this is to write my own error handler and just go ahead and request the cells colors once my colormap is all full up it should error out if the cell is non shareable but life would be much easier if i could just detect the read only shareable stuff directly any ideas noel ngorelic speclab cr usgs gov
comp.windows.x	re colormaps and window managers in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu mouse thunder mcrcim mcgill edu der mouse writes in article c duhc p cs cmu edu das cs cmu edu david simon writes can some one please explain to me why the following piece of code causes twm or tvtwm to dump core in particular i am interested in knowing whether this behavior is caused by a bug in my reasoning or if it is a bug in twm if anything a client does causes twm to dump core it s a bug in twm window managers should never ever crash would if only it were true if only mit would fix the twm installwindowcolormaps crash bug once and for all then i could say that i ve almost unable to crash either twm or tvtwm which would be a remarkable feat and most desirable to boot i mean this bug has only been reported oh a zillion times by now now servers on the other hand want to crash an openwindows xnews server at will just do an xbiff xrm xbiff shapewindow on blammo greg earle phone fax internet earle isolar tujunga ca us uucp isolar earle elroy jpl nasa gov a k a elroy isolar earle
comp.windows.x	re tvtwm xsetroot x r and sparcstation keyboard in article r q g cv genesis ait psu edu barr pop psu edu david barr writes in article mailqueue oak shu ac uk d haywood sheffield hallam ac uk writes environment sun sparc sunos x r patch level my x process is started by xdm okay that s good i m typing this from exactly the same setup us unix layout keyboard i did install the sunkbd patch though ii when i open an xterm on the sparc not all of the keys are recognised and some keys on the keyboard are not sending the correct characters did you install the sunkbd patch it s in the contrib directory on export all the keys on my keyboard send events properly except the following the end pageup pagedown on the key cluster aren t recognized even the compose key works though i can t seem to get the composed characters in an xterm to get passed anyone have a fix for the last two i don t know anything about a sunkbd patch but i use the following xmodmap file run from xinitrc via xmodmap home xmodmap of course for my type unix keyboard it s a bit brute force however sun type unix keyboard remappings this remaps the arrow keys properly by default the arrow keys on the keypad shift up shift left shift right and shift down work but the arrow keys are not assigned to any keysym keycode up keycode left keycode down keycode right now we want the back space key to emit the delete keysym keycode delete other random mappings that aren t on by default sysrq print screen key keycode sunsys req print break pause key keycode break pause alt graph key keycode mode switch pageup key keycode prior pagedown key keycode next insert key keycode insert home end keys open look functions stop key sunstop keysym cancel keycode sunstop again key sunagain redo keycode sunagain props key keycode sunprops undo key sunundo undo keycode sunundo front key keycode sunfront copy key keycode suncopy open key keycode sunopen paste key keycode sunpaste find key sunfind find keycode sunfind cut key keycode suncut greg earle phone fax internet earle isolar tujunga ca us uucp isolar earle elroy jpl nasa gov a k a elroy isolar earle
comp.windows.x	question regarding overlaying of graphics hello i wonder if some one can suggest an answer to the following question i am a total x novice and would appreciate any suggestions you may have i am trying to create a simple drawing tool let s say i have two rectangles on the canvas see above one intersecting the other now i would like to delete one of the rectangles the way i do it is to create another gc wherein i use the gxxor logical function and simply redraw the rectangle using the newly created graphics context thus deleting it for all apparent purposes a problem with this approach is that at the points of intersection the pixel locations belonging to the other rectangle also become white which is something that should be avoided is there any way i can avoid this problem without having to redraw the other rectangle too i also would not like to generate an expose event for the affected area as this degrades performance very badly thank you gopal
comp.windows.x	x terminal question a simple question to all the xperts is it possible to use several x terminals with only one mouse and one keyboard any suggestions thanks rainer rainer hochreiter telephone elin energieanwendung gesmbh telefax penzingerstr a wien austria europe e mail rainer elin co at
comp.windows.x	ncsa mosaic for x available version of ncsa mosaic for the x window system a networked information systems and world wide web browser is hereby released file ftp ncsa uiuc edu mosaic xmosaic source xmosaic tar z xmosaic binaries xmosaic sun z xmosaic binaries xmosaic sgi z xmosaic binaries xmosaic ibm z xmosaic binaries xmosaic dec z xmosaic binaries xmosaic alpha z xmosaic diffs xmosaic diffs z ncsa mosaic provides a consistent and easy to use hypermedia based interface into a wide variety of networked information sources including gopher wais world wide web nntp usenet news techinfo ftp local filesystems archie finger hyper g hytelnet texinfo telnet tn and more this release of ncsa mosaic is known to compile on the following platforms sgi irix ibm aix sun sunos with stock x r and motif and gcc dec ultrix dec alpha axp osf documentation is available online changes since include o added new resource gethostbynameisevil for sun s that coredump when gethostbyname is called to try to find out what their own names are command line flag is ghbnie o explicitly pop down all dialog boxes when document view window is closed for window managers too dull to do so themselves o better visited anchor color for non sgi s o added hqx and uu to list of file extensions handled like tar files o added clear button to open box to allow more convenient cut n paste entries of url s o new resource autoplacewindows if set to false new document view windows will not be automatically positioned by the program itself but it s still up to your window manager just how they re placed o command line flags i and iconic now have desired effect new resource initialwindowiconic can also be used o gif reading code is a little more bulletproof o obscure infinite loop triggered by extra space in img tag fixed o eliminated nonintuitive error message when image can t be read inlined ncsa bitmap is indication enough that something s not right for authors and readers can t do anything about bad images in any case o obscure parsing bug for constructs like address a href text a address fixed o fixed mysterious stupid coredump that only hits suns o fixed stupid coredump on url s like cbl leeds ac uk o fixed buglet in handling rlogin url s o new support for solaris sysvr courtesy dana thumper bellcore com o better support for hp ux x and x courtesy johns hpwarf wal hp com o better support for next courtesy scott shrug dur ac uk o some miscellaneous portability fixes courtesy bingle cs purdue edu o miscellaneous bug fixes and cleanups comments questions and bug reports should be sent to mosaic x ncsa uiuc edu thanks in advance for any feedback you can provide cheers marc marc andreessen software development group national center for supercomputing applications marca ncsa uiuc edu
comp.windows.x	re wanted info on dedicated x server kernel for sun series if anyone has any information about the existence or location of a dedicated x server kernel for the sun please send email i am trying to put some neglected sun s to good use but they don t have enough memory for sunos thanks in advance for any help there is a free program called xkernel which does just that it is by seth robertson seth ctr columbia edu it takes a sun and boots a limited kernel which allows you to run x we converted machines over this semester and the speedup is enormously appreciable i find them faster than an ncd inch black white xterminal that we are playing with and a bigger screen to boot as a matter of fact the department just bought some old sun s at an auction to convert xkernel is available for anonymous ftp from ftp ctr columbia edu in xkernel xkernel shar xkernel is a symlink to the latest version of xkernel note that the compiled version which is available is for the sun but compiling to work for a sun xx should be quite easy i am not connected with xkernel except as a satisfied installer and user i may be able to answer questions feel free to email me greg owen gowen forte cs tufts edu gowen jade tufts edu systems programmer and ta tufts university computer science dept all transfers are disclaimed by my host name and boss s address if you don t like this policy disconnect now
comp.windows.x	re animation i think you tried to send me a message re the animation query i posted to comp windows x i ve appended what i received below if you can remember what you typed i d appreciate another attempt derek derek c richardson tel x institute of astronomy fax cambridge u k cb ha e mail dcr mail ast cam ac uk begin included message from aol com postmaster thu apr received by cast ast cam ac uk uk smail id m nlsg mpc cast ast cam ac uk thu apr bst received from sco prod aol net by hp prod aol net with smtp id aa wed apr from postmaster aol com x mailer america online mailer to dcr mail ast cam ac uk subject returned mail unknown member date wed apr edt message id tn aol com status r the mail you sent could not be delivered it was addressed to an unknown user the text you sent follows hi i m new to this group so please bear with me two years ago i wrote a sunview application for fast animation of raster files with sunview becoming rapidly obselete i ve finally decided to rewrite everything from scratch in xview i put together a quick test and i ve found that xputimage is considerably slower factor of on average than the sunview command pw rop which moves image data from memory pixrects to a canvas this was on a sparc ipx it seems that the x protocol communication is slowing things down or xputimage is inefficient or both my question is what is the fastest way in x r to dump plane image data to a window can i take advantage of the fact that the client is running on the same machine as the server or am i stuck with xputimage in which case i might as well give up now all help appreciated thanks derek derek c richardson tel x institute of astronomy fax cambridge u k cb ha e mail dcr mail ast cam ac uk headers from uupsi expo lcs mit edu xpert mailer wed apr remote from aolsys received from uupsi by aolsys aol com id aa wed apr edt received from expo lcs mit edu by uu psi com b psi psinet via smtp id aa for wed apr received by expo lcs mit edu wed apr received from enterpoop mit edu by expo lcs mit edu wed apr received by enterpoop mit edu id aa wed apr received from usenet by enterpoop with netnewsfor xpert expo lcs mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu contact usenet enterpoop if you have questions to xpert expo lcs mit edu date wed apr gmt from dcr mail ast cam ac uk derek c richardson message id apr infodev cam ac uk organization institute of astronomy cambridge reply to dcr mail ast cam ac uk subject animation with xputimage end included message
comp.windows.x	re animation with xputimage in article mlb semi harris com jmartin egret imagesrus john martin writes animation is most frequently done by copying the the client resident ximages into server resident pixmap s using xputimage once this is done the original ximages can be deleted and the animation loop can be performed using xcopyarea from the pixmaps to the windows drawable hope this is helpfull john i just implemented this and it seems i can just about achieve the display rates x x frames sec on ipx that i get with sunview though it s a bit choppy at times also loading the data making an ximage then xput ing it into a pixmap is a bit cumbersome so the animation is slower to load than with sunview is there a better way to load in the data rgooch rp csiro au richard gooch writes if you need speed and your client can run on the same host as the x server you should use the shared memory extension to the sample x server mit shm xdpyinfo will tell you if your server has this extension this is certainly available with the sample mit x server running under sunos a word of warning make sure your kernel is configured to support shared memory and another word of warning openwindows is slower than the mit server i have written an imaging tool using xview for the gui by the way which yields over frames per second for bit images running on a sparc ipc half the cpu grunt of an ipx this has proved quite sufficient for animations regards richard gooch shared memory putimage also mentioned by nkissebe delphi beckman uiuc edu nick kisseberth looks interesting but i need someone to point me to some documentation is this method likely to give better results than server resident pixmaps i d also be interested in looking at the xview code mentioned above thanks for the help so far if i get something decent put together i ll definitely post it to the net derek c richardson tel x institute of astronomy fax cambridge u k cb ha e mail dcr mail ast cam ac uk
comp.windows.x	what determines the default x font i m running x under openwindows normal x programs not having a font specified always show up in the same font until i change the fontpath and restart windows then a new default font is used until the next change i can t seem to figure out how it chooses is there some way to set this possibly something in xdefaults please reply in direct email i summarize kurt swanson dept of computer science lunds universitet kurt swanson dna lth se
comp.windows.x	re forcing a window manager to accept specific coordinates for a window bading cs tu berlin de tobias doping bading writes try this after xcreatewindow xsizehints flags usposition ussize or pposition psize xsetwmnormalhints display window xsizehints these hints tell the window manager that the position and size of the window are specified by the users and that the window manager should accept these values if you use xsizehints flags pposition psize this tells the window manager that the values are prefered values of the program not the user i don t know a window manager that doesn t place the window like you prefer if you specify the position and size like above sorry but olwm and tvtwm don t do it they place the title at that position and the window at a position below it this becomes a problem when you want a program to be able to save its current configuration and restore is later currently my solution is xcreatewindow xsetwmproperties xmapwindow xflush xmovewindow it works with olwm but is less than elegant all this leaves me wondering if i m overlooking something obvious richard
comp.windows.x	overriding default behaviour usually when i start up an application i first get the window outline on my display i then have to click on the mouse button to actually place the window on the screen yet when i specify the geometry option the window appears right away the properties specified by the geometry argument the question now is how can i override the intermediary step of the user having to specify window position with a mouseclick i ve tried explicitly setting window size and position but that did alter the normal program behaviour thanks for any hints robert ps i m working in plain x robert gasch der erste mai ist der tag an dem die stadt ins oracle engineering freihe tritt und den staatlichen monopolanspruch de meern nl auf gewalt in frage stellt rgasch nl oracle com einstuerzende neubauten
comp.windows.x	re animation with xputimage in article apr infodev cam ac uk dcr mail ast cam ac uk derek c richardson writes two years ago i wrote a sunview application for fast animation of raster files with sunview becoming rapidly obselete i ve finally decided to rewrite everything from scratch in xview i put together a quick test and i ve found that xputimage is considerably slower factor of on average than the sunview command pw rop which moves image data from memory pixrects to a canvas this was on a sparc ipx it seems that the x protocol communication is slowing things down or xputimage is inefficient or both my question is what the protocol has to move the whole image from process memory to server memory this is the hog the conversions in the xputimage are fast is the fastest way in x r to dump plane image data to a window can i take advantage of the fact that the client is running on the same machine as the server or am i stuck with yes by utilizing the mit shm extension that provides an xputimage derivate that uses shared memory fine fast xputimage in which case i might as well give up now no you can still xputimage all of the frames onto pixmaps thus moving them to server memory and then replay them fastest using xcopyarea but be aware this is a major server memory bummer o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.windows.x	dxf format display hi i am looking for an x app that will display dxf files these are ascii text files that are normally associated with autocad i have a large meg file of the state of wisconsin that i would like to views and or cut into smaller chunks i also would like to find a complete file layout for dxf files any information would be appreciated patrick l mcgillan computer systems specialist university of wisconsin ph superior wisconsin pmcgilla uwsuper edu
comp.windows.x	x window for pc if a x window package exists that runs om pc dos and maybe ms windows i would be very happy to hear about it thanx in advance eigil krogh sorensen
comp.windows.x	vanishing font problem a colleague has a bizarre font problem on his new mips workstation when he first logs on via xdm he has a single xterm window appear with the mwm window manager running in this configuration x windows applications particularly xdvi work fine however if he opens up a second xterm application suddenly xdvi cannot start in either window giving the error unable to load iso font the only difference between the two xterm windows is that the initial one references a different name in the xsession file with prettier colours and other slight changes further investigation shows that only opening a default xterm causes this behaviour and more significant all x applications can no longer load any fonts if they are invoked from the command line in either window if i start the xterm with a different font using the fn option no problems it would seem that the default xterm is loading a font which somehow causes the server to lose all of its fonts note xlsfonts in either window shows all of the fonts available so there doesn t appear to be a problem in the font directories hash tables other than rewriting the xterm app defaults file to use a different font and hope for the best does anyone have any ideas more info this is the most recent mips workstation r i believe with the most current operating system and running x r it is not mwm s fault as the same problems occur under twm etc
comp.windows.x	postscript on x terminal i have a problem when i m using postscript when i am working local on a sun sparcstaton ipc the postscript works good but when i connect to the sun from a x terminal i just get error messages that the postscript cannot connect to the news display why doesn t postscript work on an x terminal is there any way to make it work henrik henrik hjort hjort
comp.windows.x	re image processing packages under x prateek mishra mishra cs sunysb edu wrote i am looking for a package that implements standard image processing functions reading writing from standard formats clipping zoom etc implemented under x both public domain and private packages are of interest the particular application area i have in mind is medical imaging but a package meant for a more general context would be acceptable please reply to me i will summarize on the net if there is general interest prateek mishra mishra sbcs sunysb edu keep tabs with the faq in sci image processing there is quite a comprehensive compilation of image processing s w x included i ve ftp ed imagemagick and its great check out the faq its all there
comp.windows.x	a strange problem with text hello i am testing a port of x r to coherent a unix clone os for intel architecture machines i am seeing a strange problem with text in clients like xvt a simple terminal emulator program the problem manifests it self when the shell echoes typed characters back to the server for display one at a time the characters appear to be too closely spaced with the result being that the nd character echoed destroys the rightmost edge of the first character then the rd character destroys the rightmost edge of the second character and so on it looks like there is an invisible boundary around a character which obscures a portion of the previous character there is no problem between the characters when the shell returns a complete line of text only when the output is a series of individual characters if anyone has any ideas what the problem might be or where i should look to find it it would be much appreciated regards and thanks jon dhuse jon dhuse internet jdhuse sedona intel com intel corp ch phone w chandler blvd any opinions expressed are my own chandler az not my employer s
comp.windows.x	cxterm on mips hello has anyone built cxterm x r on a mips platform if you have please send me email as i don t read this group i ve a bunch of questions thanks edward m greshko control data taiwan voice x f nanking east road section fax taipei taiwan r o c
comp.windows.x	re repost accelerators translations in sdennis aa cad slb com sdennis osf org writes i posted this a while ago and didn t receive one reply and now we have another bug report on the same subject can anybody help me out the problem is that motif uses xgrabkey to implement menu accelerators and these grabs are specific about which modifiers apply unfortunately the specification for xgrabkey doesn t allow anymodifier to be combined with other modifiers which is exactly what would be desired in this case ctrl any key q in ora vol in the section on accelerators it says for information on how to specify translation tables see vol this is so you know what to put for the xmnaccelerator resource if you go to vol it says likewise if a modifier is specified there is nothing to prohibit other modifiers from being present as well for example the translation shift key q quit will take effect even if the ctrl key is held down at the same time as the shift key and the q key this is true for accelerators and mnemonics which are implemented using event handlers instead of grabs it s not true for menu accelerators if you re a motif implementor i d suggest lobbying to get the xlib semantics changed to support the feature i described above otherwise change the documentation for menu accelerators to properly set the user s expectations because menu accelerators are not the same thing as translations is it possible to supply accelerator for a menu entry if you mean menu accelerator no it s not possible that s according to the definition of the xmnaccelerator resource in the xmlabel manual page keep in mind when answering this question that when using motif you can t use xtinstallaccelerators i can t think of a reason why not how can you ensure that accelerators work the same independent of case what i want is ctrl o and ctrl o to both be accelerators on one menu entry there is a workaround for motif users in addition to the normal menu accelerator you install on the xmpushbutton gadget set an xtnaccelerators resource on the shell toplevel or application install the shell s accelerators on itself and all of its descendants with xtinstallallaccelerators shell shell for example applicationshell mainwindow menubar filecascade filepulldown openpushbutton exitpushbutton openpushbutton accelerator ctrl key o openpushbutton acceleratortext ctrl o exitpushbutton accelerator ctrl key q exitpushbutton acceleratortext ctrl q applicationshell accelerators override n ctrl key o performaction openpushbutton armandactivate n ctrl key q performaction exitpushbutton armandactivate you have to write and add the application action performaction which you can implement by using xtnametowidget on the first argument and then xtcallactionproc with the rest of the arguments i tested out something similar to this to shorten development time i used teleuse s tuninstallaccelerators resource to install the accelerators on the shell and i directly invoked the open and quit d actions instead of asking the pushbuttons to do it for me but the more general approach i described above should work trevor bourget trevor telesoft com
comp.windows.x	re animation with xputimage in article apr infodev cam ac uk dcr mail ast cam ac uk derek c richardson writes i just implemented this and it seems i can just about achieve the display rates x x frames sec on ipx that i get with sunview though it s a bit choppy at times also loading the data making an ximage then xput ing it into a pixmap is a bit cumbersome so the animation is slower to load than with sunview is there a better way to load in the data rgooch rp csiro au richard gooch writes if you need speed and your client can run on the same host as the x server you should use the shared memory extension to the sample x server mit shm xdpyinfo will tell you if your server has this extension this is certainly available with the sample mit x server running under sunos a word of warning make sure your kernel is configured to support shared memory and another word of warning openwindows is slower than the mit server i have written an imaging tool using xview for the gui by the way which yields over frames per second for bit images running on a sparc ipc half the cpu grunt of an ipx this has proved quite sufficient for animations regards richard gooch shared memory putimage also mentioned by nkissebe delphi beckman uiuc edu nick kisseberth looks interesting but i need someone to point me to some documentation is this method likely to give better results than server resident pixmaps i d also be interested in looking at the xview code mentioned above thanks for the help so far if i get something decent put together i ll definitely post it to the net the mit tapes come with documentation written by keith packard on the shared memory extension to x look in mit doc extensions mit shm ms i found this invaluble unfortunately there is a bit of work to set up the shared memory segments making an ximage from it etc also there is an extension query to determine if the server supports it but you still need to test if the server is running on the same host and if shared memory is enabled in the kernel i have written layers of convience routines which make all this transparent as for the xview code well i doubt that would be considered interesting the interesting stuff is done in a c object library people interested in this code can email me regards richard gooch rgooch atnf csiro au
comp.windows.x	need help with key bindings i need help binding some value to the home and end keys on my keyboard i have an rs w aix ext running x r pl mit dist i m using a pc running exceed for windows as my xterminal the home and end keys do not send a value and my application needs them to be defined i used this in my xdefaults to define the keys varnet vt translations override key home string n key end string then i xterm name varnet this works perfect however the and the key on my keypad are also defined as and any ideas help please thanks egan f ford egan phony cc utah edu hellgate utah edu
comp.windows.x	core dump from getcons we are getting a memory fault and a core dump whenever we end a motif session under ultrix running on a dec an examintion of the core file leads us to believe it s from getcons does anyone know what this is all about marc marc wiener marc aip org american institute of physics sunnyside blvd voice woodbury ny fax
comp.windows.x	re animation with xputimage in article nrao edu rgooch rp csiro au richard gooch writes the mit tapes come with documentation written by keith packard on the shared memory extension to x look in mit doc extensions mit shm ms i found this invaluble unfortunately there is a bit of work to set up the shared memory segments making an ximage from it etc also there is an extension query to determine if the server supports it but you still need to test if the server is running on the same host and if shared memory is enabled in the kernel i have written layers of convience routines which make all this transparent as for the xview code well i doubt that would be considered interesting the interesting stuff is done in a c object library people interested in this code can email me regards richard gooch rgooch atnf csiro au thanks for docs info it turns out that if i leave out colormap updates between frames and use tvtwm my tests with x x frames on an ipx using the server resident pixmap method give an astonishing frames per second and very smooth i think i ve found the best solution thanks to the generous help on this group however i may have colormap questions later derek derek c richardson tel x institute of astronomy fax cambridge u k cb ha e mail dcr mail ast cam ac uk
comp.windows.x	re animation with xputimage dcr mail ast cam ac uk derek c richardson writes shared memory putimage also mentioned by nkissebe delphi beckman uiuc edu nick kisseberth looks interesting but i need someone to point me to some documentation is this method likely to give better results than server resident pixmaps i d also be interested in looking at the xview code mentioned above there s documentation on how to use the shared memory extension in the x r distribution actually i just finished writing a motif animation program take lots of image data and display it pretty darn fast when using on server pixmaps or shared memory i had to insert a delay loop to keep it from going too quickly testing both methods side by side they were just about equal the advantage of shm is that your x server doesn t grow to ridiculous sizes but pixmaps can work over a network and are removed if your application dies one tends to use ipcrm manually quite a bit when debugging shm apps shared memory also has the problem that some operating systems e g ultrix seem to allow only a small number of segments to be attached to a process at once consequently a redraw becomes xshmattach xshmputimage xshmdetach on dec systems and dec s bit displays like the ones i tend to use most often don t seem to support the extension maybe someone compiled them wrong and using pixmaps causes the x server to crash failed mallocs so one has to use the local unix domain socket which really isn t that bad one copies the info three times per redraw instead of one in short allowing all three forms of display within the program is a good thing minus shm if running over a network and let the user pick whatever feels fastest i just use an ximagehandler class and forget about it rob
comp.windows.x	pixmaps and colormaps sent through selections i want to be able to send a pixmap from one client to the next along with this i want to send the colormap and foreground and background pixel values so far not a problem i can do this with no problem however once i have the pixmap id and the colormap id how do i go about telling the server that the second receiving client now wants to have associations with the two id s tia john o john l cwikla o o o x programmer o x was never the first o o wolfram research inc o letter of the alphabet o o cwikla wri com o o
comp.windows.x	dynamic squeezetitle configuration in twm i consider twm style squeezed titles indispensable in a window manager i like to have two tall xterm windows visible at the same time with no overlap and since two windows aren t enough i have other xterm windows underneath them with exactly the same positioning in case you re not familiar with squeezed titles here s a crude picture figure title a title b title c this is the window b hides window c but body of the you can still see c s title window window a which is squeezed right figure squeezed titles allow me to have about such windows in each stack with easy access and per stack is usually more than i really need since i also insist on having a virtual wm the only problem is that the title location is static that is it is configured in twmrc and in order to change it you have to edit that file and restart the window manager doing so is cumbersome and time consuming therefore i have implemented f squeeze left center right functions in my own copy of vtwm the idea being that with one click of a button you can change this title a this is the body of the window window a to this title a this is the body of the window window a okay so far so good now how the heck do i get them to put this into the next official twm and the next tvtwm and the next vtwm and the next ctwm and the next xyztwm that i never heard of one way would be to post in comp windows x a description of this enhancement together with an explanation of why i think it is a very good thing and hope that someone reads it in case it isn t already clear why i think it s a very good thing look back up at figure and picture window a moved over on top of windows b and c now window a s title hides window b s title but when you hit f squeezecenter the result is title b title a title c this is the body of the window window a which is on top the rest of this posting explains how to implement it based on my x r copy of vtvwm shar it s just a sketch because posting the full diffs would be too long the key to this enhancement is to add the following lines in the executefunction routine in menus c ifdef shape case f squeezeleft static squeezeinfo left squeeze j left if deferexecution context func scr selectcursor return true tmp win squeeze info left squeeze setframeshape tmp win break and similarly for squeezeright j right and squeezecenter j center endif of course you also have to define f squeezeleft in parse h and add f squeezeleft fkeyword f squeezeleft and so forth to parse c in order to use these functions add something like the following to your twmrc file button m s w v d r i t door f squeezecenter about a year ago i posted this but our news was broken and i think it didn t get out since then blast has appeared in comp sources x volume issue you could use blast to achieve a similar effect by chiseling away at an mwm style wide title better to have a twm style window manager i think ralph betza fm uunet ssiny gnohmon gnohmon ssiny com the question of whether a computer can swim is more interesting than the question of whether a submarine can think lenny dykstra
comp.windows.x	re animation with xputimage shared memory putimage also mentioned by nkissebe delphi beckman uiuc edu nick kisseberth looks interesting but i need someone to point me to some documentation is this method likely to give better results than server resident pixmaps i d also be interested in looking at the xview code mentioned above there is no easy answer to this question it depends on whether the display device can hold pixmaps in off screen memory and if so how efficiently the server manages these resources having to deal with limited off screen memory is the bane of the server implementor s existence i have worked with graphics devices where the off screen memory to main display copy rate eclipses that of the main memory to display copy rate and with those where the main memory to display is faster than off screen to display requires only a write to the framebuffer rather than a read of the f b followed by a write if your server uses the cfb code or something like it to render into pixmaps in cpu main memory the rates you can get through mit shm are likely to be equal maybe a tad slower depending on your os s implementation of shared memory to copyarea from pixmap to window which is also then just a copy from cpu main memory to graphics device one advanage of mit shm is that if your images are large you don t end up growing the size of the server process to hold them one disadvantage of the mit shm is that in its sample implementation there is no provision for elegantly cleaning up the shared memory segments if the client dies a sudden violent death e g kill you have to be mindful of cluttering up the system with zombie shared memory segments ken kenneth whaley kubota pacific computer inc email whaley kpc com walsh avenue santa clara ca
comp.windows.x	help on xlib and include files hi xperts i have a sparc with very limited disk space on usr partition previously i was able to run all x windows applications and then i upgraded my system to sun o s and realized that the hard disk did not have enough space to load openwindows my immediate alternative was to load only the neccessary files to boot the system this resulted in not loading openwindows as a result of which none of the x libraries got loaded i am trying to load just the libraries and include files and bin x files required for running x windows and compiling my programs written for xlib and xaw in a desperate effort to regain x windows i retrieved usr lib libx files from the tape usr bin x and usr include x is this enough for running x windows but i did not get usr lib x fonts sub directories these are mainly dpi dpi and misc when i run xinit the error message says usr lib x fonts dpi etc are not in the default path but the problem is i cannot load any of those directories as there is no disk space are there any temporary suggestions before i get a gb disk and load openwindows to just have my x windows running thanks pramod
comp.windows.x	writing a motif widget can anyone give me some information please i need probably to write one or more new motif widgets on the hp ux platform do i need the motif private header files and source or can i make do with the public headers that are provided motif includes xt in this context one widget is a multi column list which lots of people have already written i am sure and would therefore be probably be a subclass of list rather than something simple like an xt class is this more difficult in principle not lines of code alternatively if anyone has a multi column list widget they could sell me this might save me from having to write one does it by any chance exist in motif already i do not yet have the spec answers appreciated nicholas nicholas young
comp.windows.x	re forcing a window manager to accept specific coordinates for a window in article r l g bub wsinfo win tue nl rcb wsinfo win tue nl richard verhoeven writes bading cs tu berlin de tobias doping bading writes try this after xcreatewindow xsizehints flags usposition ussize or pposition psize xsetwmnormalhints display window xsizehints these hints tell the window manager that the position and size of the window are specified by the users and that the window manager should accept these values if you use xsizehints flags pposition psize this tells the window manager that the values are prefered values of the program not the user i don t know a window manager that doesn t place the window like you prefer if you specify the position and size like above sorry but olwm and tvtwm don t do it they place the title at that position and the window at a position below it the reason they place their outside corner at the location you requested is because that s what the icccm says they should do this becomes a problem when you want a program to be able to save its current configuration and restore is later currently my solution is xcreatewindow xsetwmproperties xmapwindow xflush xmovewindow this code will almost certainly break calling xmapwindow and then xflush does not guarantee that the window is visible and managed by the window manager even if this did work there isn t a reliable way to find out how much decoration the window manager placed around your window so you don t know how far to move it and what if the window manager refuses to move your window tom lastrange toml boulder parcplace com
comp.windows.x	re postscript on x terminal i have a problem when i m using postscript when i am working local on a sun sparcstation ipc the postscript works good but when i connect to the sun from a x terminal i just get error messages that the postscript cannot connect to the news display why doesn t postscript work on an x terminal because xterminals do not have a news server xterminals have speed by nature of their limited functionality once you add news and everything else you have a workstation there are workarounds i ve heard one involving a perl script what we are trying to do is replace programs that need news like pageview with programs that don t like ghostview maybe someone else can elaborate on the perl workaround i have no personal experience with it greg owen gowen forte cs tufts edu gowen jade tufts edu systems programmer and ta tufts university computer science dept all transfers are disclaimed by my host name and boss s address if you don t like this policy disconnect now
comp.windows.x	q colormaps with dialog shells i have an applicationshell which uses a colormap created with xcreatecolormap and uses all of the colors available for my bit display when i move the cursor over the window i get the technicolor effect which is fine basically my program works my problem question is when i popup a dialogshell to prompt the user for some input i want the xmndialogstyle to be set to xmdialog primary application modal the result is that if my cursor is over the dialogshell i get my colormap but if the cursor is over the applicationshell or any window other than the dialogshell i get the default colormap but i d like it so that if my cursor is over any window of my application i get my colormap any suggestions thanks david
comp.windows.x	looking for an r xserver for hp subject says it all anyone know where i can find one binaries are nice but source would do to thanks in advance rob banz banz umbc edu if we give people an alternative to microsoft it will have been a greater good steve jobs unixworld april yes bill we are your father ibm os presentation fose
comp.windows.x	wcl hi i have a problem when compiled wcl in sco odt cc c ox i i usr include xt getresl c xt getresl c xt getresl c error c xtconstraintbit undefined error code although i follow the instructions in file readme build to build wcl in sco platform this problem didn t resolve so i have some questions related to this matter does xtconstraintbit exist in sco odt does xtconstraintbit use in x r x r and what release does sco odt use x r or x r if not does someone know how to work around
comp.windows.x	xterm with status line and color i m looking for a version of xterm which handles color and vt style status lines can anyone out there help thanks
comp.windows.x	problem running aix info from a sun rlogin shell when i run our rs s info utility through a remote login shell rlogin from my sun sparc i can no longer type lower case in any of info s window prompt s i thought the prob may have been due to my sun window mgr openlook being incompatible with the aix motif application but i tried it under tvtwm also same result so this is presumably an x key definition problem between workstations but my system admins feign ignorance what do i need to do the be able to type lower case into this remote aix motif app from within my local openlook window manager wayne long oe internet wcl risc sps mot com william cannon drive west uucp cs texas edu oakhill risc wcl austin texas phone fax
comp.windows.x	re repost accelerators translations in article apr telesoft com trevor telesoft com trevor bourget ignite writes in sdennis aa cad slb com sdennis osf org writes i posted this a while ago and didn t receive one reply and now we have another bug report on the same subject can anybody help me out the problem is that motif uses xgrabkey to implement menu accelerators and these grabs are specific about which modifiers apply unfortunately the specification for xgrabkey doesn t allow anymodifier to be combined with other modifiers which is exactly what would be desired in this case ctrl any key q in ora vol in the section on accelerators it says for information on how to specify translation tables see vol this is so you know what to put for the xmnaccelerator resource if you go to vol it says likewise if a modifier is specified there is nothing to prohibit other modifiers from being present as well for example the translation shift key q quit will take effect even if the ctrl key is held down at the same time as the shift key and the q key this is true for accelerators and mnemonics which are implemented using event handlers instead of grabs it s not true for menu accelerators if you re a motif implementor i d suggest lobbying to get the xlib semantics changed to support the feature i described above otherwise change the documentation for menu accelerators to properly set the user s expectations because menu accelerators are not the same thing as translations is it possible to supply accelerator for a menu entry if you mean menu accelerator no it s not possible that s according to the definition of the xmnaccelerator resource in the xmlabel manual page keep in mind when answering this question that when using motif you can t use xtinstallaccelerators i can t think of a reason why not how can you ensure that accelerators work the same independent of case what i want is ctrl o and ctrl o to both be accelerators on one menu entry i find this thread on motif accelerators absoultly amazing if i were writing an interface to keyboard accelerators i would have one resource called accelerators that took a translation table period i would also implement it so that programmer never has to do any work to get the accelerators installed as soon as the end user specified one it would be active and automatically installed to get multiple accelerators on a single menu item i d do something like menuitem accelerators override n ctrl key m fire n shift key l fire n the accelerators would work exactly like translations and you would automatically see a ctrl m show up in your menuitem object why in the world is the motif stuff so complicated with so many different special cases depending on what type of widget you re dealing with there has to be some reason sorry for the political tone of this message tom lastrange toml boulder parcplace com
comp.windows.x	re animation with xputimage in article whaley apr sigma kpc com whaley sigma kpc com ken whaley writes one advanage of mit shm is that if your images are large you don t end up growing the size of the server process to hold them correct most x servers use a version of malloc which will not return memory to the os ie the x server might free a pixmap but the heap does not shrink one disadvantage of the mit shm is that in its sample implementation there is no provision for elegantly cleaning up the shared memory segments if the client dies a sudden violent death e g kill you have to be mindful of cluttering up the system with zombie shared memory segments well part of the routines i mentioned do a dirty little trick to get around that problem first i create the shared memory segment attach the client attach the x server and then remove the segment if you read the man pages on removing of shared memory segments you will see that the segment only dies after all attachments are gone now if the client dies that s one attachment gone the os cleans up for you and since the x server notices the client has dies frees up it s resources including detaching from the segment there goes the last attachment no more shared memory segment terrible but it works regards richard gooch
comp.windows.x	xterm patches for alpha osf well after massaging the dec cf osf def can t remember the exact names from osf into my normal x r distribution everything compiles and links fine but xterm doesn t run warning representation size must match superclass s to override background warning translation table syntax error modifier or expected warning found while parsing p j p x error of failed request badcolor invalid colormap parameter major opcode of failed request x allocnamedcolor resource id in failed request x serial number of failed request current serial number in output stream other than this all the other core x stuff seems to be working ok any hints tips appreciated patches would be primo thanks jaye mathisen coe systems manager roberts hall dept of computer science montana state university bozeman mt osyjm cs montana edu
comp.windows.x	x gl widget translation problem i am writing a custom widget to support the display of graphics and imagery the user of the widget will be able to specify when creating it whether it is to operate in x or gl mode i have set up translations and actions to handle mouse button presses they work fine when the widget is in x mode in gl mode they only work when the widget my gl x widget is a child of a manager put another way the translations do not work when the widget is configured in gl mode and is a child of a shell does anyone know why this is happening thanks in advance bruce gendler bgendler csc com
comp.windows.x	text field in dialog widget doesn t get focus i am using the glx widget athena widgets on a mixed model application under dwm but when the dialog gets popped up its text entry field does not have focus aimilar code works perfectly if i use pure x no mixed model here is the relevant portion of the code int n arg wargs widget button popupshell dialog initialize toplevel here n xtsetarg wargs n xtnlabel foo n button xtcreatemanagedwidget foobtn commandwidgetclass toplevel wargs n popupshell xtcreatepopupshell pupshell overrideshellwidgetclass button null xtaddcallback popupshell xtncallback mypopup xtpointer popupshell n xtsetarg wargs n xtnvalue n dialog xtcreatemanagedwidget thedialog dialogwidgetclass popupshell wargs n void mypopup w popup shell call data widget w widget popup shell xtpointer call data xtpopup popup shell xtgrabexclusive a way i found to give focus to the text field is to move the application window around a little bit and place it right behind the popup any pointers would be greatly appreciated
comp.windows.x	correction on my last posting glx lack of cous on dialog widget on the code i sent please replace the line xtaddcallback popupshell xtncallback mypopup xtpointer popupshell by xtaddcallback button xtncallback mypopup xtpointer popupshell the rest and my question remains the same dan
comp.windows.x	re dell eisa video cards this belongs in comp windows x i unix i ve redirected followups in article c sshu cbi gator rn com larry gator rn com larry snyder writes does xfree support any eisa video cards under dell larry snyder larry gator rn com i know for a fact that the eisa version of the orchid prodesigner iis works however an eisa svga card is likely a waste of money when xfree comes out with support for accelerated chipsets isa eisa and vlb will all be supported the more important question is what chipsets are supported the bus is basically irrelevent as a compatibility issue david wexelblat dwex mtgzfs att com fax at t bell laboratories laurel ave f middletown nj xfree requests should be addressed to xfree physics su oz au love is like oxygen you get too much you get too high not enough and you re gonna die sweet love is like oxygen
comp.windows.x	re question regarding overlaying of graphics let s say i have two rectangles on the canvas see above one intersecting the other now i would like to delete one of the rectangles the way i do it is to create another gc wherein i use the gxxor logical function and simply redraw the rectangle using the newly created graphics context thus deleting it for all apparent purposes a problem with this approach is that at the points of intersection the pixel locations belonging to the other rectangle also become white which is something that should be avoided you could set up a bitmap with a mask in it clear the bitmap draw the rectangle to be deleted with gxor draw the one that is to stay with gxclear then gxxor the entire pixmap with the screen note that this is a pretty effective way of animation if you ever need to do that replace the gxclear with a gxxor joe hildebrand hildjj fuentez com software engineer fuentez systems concepts standard disclaimers apply
comp.windows.x	keysym database problems i am having problems with a motif application that when run on another machine with different x paths etc can t find the xkeysymdb file this causes a large warning output warning translation table syntax error unknown keysym name osfactivate warning found while parsing key osfactivate managerparentactivate warning translation table syntax error unknown keysym name osfcancel warning found while parsing key osfcancel managerparentcancel warning translation table syntax error unknown keysym name osfselect warning found while parsing key osfselect managergadgetselect etc as the file is in a different location but xt seems to only look for it in the place where it is on the machine the app was compiled on is there any way to read the xkeysymdb manually with an x xt call so that additions to the xkeysymdb can be distributed with the application i have used trace to find out what was going on but i need a fix so that these translations in the application can be recognised tim tim liddelow for fork systems programmer centre of advanced technology in telecommunications my brain on a bad day citri melbourne australia internet tim kimba catt citri edu au phone fax
comp.windows.x	re mix gl with x xlib xt mwm in article scorpion dps co uk gerard dps co uk gerard o driscoll writes pyeatt texaco com writes there is a widget already defined for gl it is the glxmdraw motif or glxdraw athena widget it is similar to a xmdrawingarea except that it allows you to use gl calls to render into the window look at glxlink glxunlink glxgetconfig and glxwinset in the man pages where do i get hold of these widgets gerard o driscoll gerard odriscoll dps co uk du pont pixel systems ltd they come with every iris now nth also ships it with their latest version of nth portable gl i just got the update a couple of weeks ago i would assume that silicon graphics would license the source to you so that you can include it in your company s gl offering larry d pyeatt the views expressed here are not internet pyeatt texaco com those of my employer or of anyone voice that i know of with the possible exception of myself
comp.windows.x	re writing a motif widget in article c wapj dd ibmpcug co uk nicholas ibmpcug co uk nicholas young writes i need probably to write one or more new motif widgets on the hp ux platform do i need the motif private header files and source or can i make do with the public headers that are provided motif includes xt in this context yes you ll find it almost impossible without the source at this point it does depend on how ambitious you are and how concerned you are about compliance with the general interface and items like traversal one widget is a multi column list which lots of people have already written i am sure and would therefore be probably be a subclass of list rather than something simple like an xt class is this more difficult in principle not lines of code i m not sure what you re asking you could create something which is very much like a true multi column list by placing several lists within a geometry manager and putting that manager within an automatic scrolled window this wouldn t be good for very large lists but you might consider this as an alternative alternatively if anyone has a multi column list widget they could sell me this might save me from having to write one does it by any chance exist in motif already i do not yet have the spec motif does not have a multi column list in it have you looked at commercial sets there are also some pd widget sets one of these might have a multi column list you could port douglas s rand drand osf org osf motif dev snail cambridge center cambridge ma disclaimer i don t know if osf agrees with me let s vote on it amateur radio kc kj
comp.windows.x	numlock masking interference with meta compose extendchar my question is this is there a means of determining what the state of capslock and or numlock is alright ignore this i have delved a bit deeper xkeyevent and found what i was looking for ev state has a bunch of masks to check against lockmask is the one for capslock unfortunately it appears that the numlock mask varies from server to server how does one tell what mask is numlock and which are for meta mod mask mod mask mod mask mod mask mod mask eg sgi s vendor server has mod mask being numlock whereas solaris openwindows has mod mask for numlock is there an unambiguous means of determining numlock s mask at runtime for any given server sorry for the wasted bandwidth and my appalling ignorance thanks ralph
comp.windows.x	trying to find papers by rosenthal i have the march april version of the x journal open in front of me i ll be working on programming x clients this summer and since i don t have much experience with programming x i thought this issue might be helpful as it has a section on debugging and a section on the most common errors in programming x at the end of the errors section there are the following references for tutorials on x programming style they are rosenthal david a simple x client program proceedings of the winter usenix conference lemke d and rosenthal d visualizing x clients proceedings of the winter usenix conference does anyone know where i could find these in printed or preferably electronic form or can you suggest any net resources devoted to the introduction to programming x i ll be looking at the bookstore for books so i am really only asking about what i can find on the net thanks david simpson davesimp soda berkeley edu
comp.windows.x	re xt intrinsics slow popups cjhs minster york ac uk wrote help i am running some sample problems from o reilly volume xt intrisics programming manual chapter popup dialog boxes and so on in example page creating a pop up dialog box the application creates window with a button quit and press me the button press me pops up a dialog box the strange feature of this program is that it always pops up the dialog box much faster the first time if i try to pop it up a nd time rd th time it is much slower has anyone any experience with these sample programs or why i get this behaviour fast response time for the first time but slow response time from nd time onwards anyone can give me some ideas on how to program popups so that each time they popup in reasonable fast response time thankyou shirley thanks to those who responded we were able to prevent this behaviour by two methods running twm rather than olwm keeping olwm but putting wmtimeout in the resources it has been suggested that the difficuty was something to do with the window manager positioning the popup window any guru who can analyse what is going on from this information please post and let us know thanks shirley
comp.windows.x	question on xon in x r hi folks say i m new to r and have one quick question in using xon xon machine name i notice that it always comes up with a very small window i m pretty sure its the default font my xterms all work normally is xon supposed to read your xresources for a font size xrdb q appears to show the right stuff i can use xon with arguments such as xterm fn x etc and everything is correct of course you could always do a simple script to do this but i have a feeling i m missing something simple here comments suggestions appreciated thanks in advance bob bshaw spdc ti com mm
comp.windows.x	re gui study cutsie little macintrash like icons that are an instant recipe for mousitis imho system is undoubtedly the worst gui i have used out of that riscos mswombles and x simply because it does not provide enough keyboard shortcuts windows i must confess i quite like cover your ears because you can actually use it without having to ever touch the mouse stuff delete the user rather than making things easier and there should always be the option to do it your way if you want to which is why i like the unix x combination so much it s so customizable hear hear i agree completely one thing i can t stand about the mac interface is its shear determination to force you to use the mouse what if your mouse breaks your whole system is down i like the mouse it is handy on some occassions such as cut and past and moving icons around etc but for most work the keyboard and hot keys are times faster than using the mouse sure it is a plus to be able to do something simple if you are an inexperienced user but how long is it before your are experienced a month two speaking of pcs at the moment i don t think it is too much to ask that window programmers provide not only a menu mouse interface but also look forward to those who would like to move on to hot keys and command line interfaces which usually allows you to do more in less time if you are experienced all of the above equally applies to windowing systems on unix especially since unix is at least more powerful than dos seth buffington u s s gab i seth cs unt edu seth gab unt edu unix operator
comp.windows.x	x terminal config file question question what is the exact entry parameter and syntax please in the x terminal configuration file loaded when the x terminal boots to add another system to the tcp ip access control list background i have two unix systems an at t b running x r and mit s x r and a sun ss without any x i want to have a window to the sun and the b on the ncd x terminal at the same time i can do this if i manually set the network parameter tcp ip access control list to off then login to my telnet session not great i ve tried to get xhost to work and failed either my syntax is wrong or the x r implementation is bogus i am trying to edit the ncd configuration file that is loaded when the ncd boots no matter what entry i add or edit the ncd still boots with the tcp ip access control list containing only the b my manuals are worthless so any help would be most appreciated thanks ann marie barden abarden afseo eglin af mil
comp.windows.x	x error of failed request badpixmap invalid pixmap parameter could someone please give a guess as to why this simple little program causes a badpixmap error on the fourth bizarre call to xtrelaizewidget here is the code int stoploop static void callback widget xtpointer xtpointer main xttoolkitinitialize xtappcontext app xtcreateapplicationcontext while int junk display dis xtopendisplay app null null null null junk null widget top xtappcreateshell null null applicationshellwidgetclass dis null widget box xtvacreatemanagedwidget x xmpushbuttonwidgetclass top xmnheight xmnwidth null xtaddcallback box xmnactivatecallback callback null xtrealizewidget top while stoploop xevent event xtappnextevent app event xtdispatchevent event stoploop xtreleasegc top xdefaultgcofscreen xtscreen top needed xtdestroywidget top xtclosedisplay dis static void callback widget xtpointer xtpointer stoploop the error i get yes the th time i try to show the box is x error of failed request badpixmap invalid pixmap parameter major opcode of failed request x creategc resource id in failed request xd d serial number of failed request current serial number in output stream please respond via email thanks very very much note i realize this program does nothing useful its an ultra trivialized version fo a real library routine david rex wood davewood cs colorado edu university of colorado at boulder
comp.windows.x	re looking for david e smyth in article apr nynexst com zvi nynexst com zvi guter writes the author of wcl or the current care taker his is the only name i found in the dist tree i have tried to mail him at david smyth ap mchp sni de but the mail bounced back any help in finding him will be greatly appreciated try david ap uucp david ap ztivax siemens com xtian name christian mollard email c mollard frec bull fr phone bull fax address bull s a b p echirolles cedex france
comp.windows.x	virtual mwm hi netland i thought that i once read about the existance of a virtual mwm like vtwm on the usual ftp sites gatakeeper dec com export lcs mit edu i can t find any trace of this program could anybody give me a hint where to find this program or confirm deny the existance of this program regards stefan
comp.windows.x	installation problem with x r i am in the process of installing x r on my sun sparcstation and have run into a problem i imagine it has something to do with a missing screen driver or something along those lines but figured someone out there in internet land might be able to help i am installing it on a machine that already has openlook installed and would like to have both installed concurrently thus i set it up to compile to my usr x r directory i worked out all the kinks in getting it compiled with gcc so that it compiles without any warnings i need it installed for pex si so i set all those appropriate flags when i run it however i get a message along the lines of getting interface configuration operation not supported on socket sunopenframebuffer inappropriate ioctl for device fatal server error no screens found any ideas on how i can fix it please respond by e mail at the below address thanks in advance dan i do not want to be immortalized through my works i want to be immortalized through not dying woody allen dan kirkpatrick dept of electrical computer engineering dsk rice edu rice university uunet rice edu dsk uunet uu net houston tx
comp.windows.x	imake cpp problems on aix i am trying to build and use imake x r on an ibm rs running aix v i am having the following problems many of my imakefile s have contructs like this is a makefile at the start of lines to pass makefile comments thru the c preprocessor and into the makefile most of the c preprocessors that i have used will not treat such a as appearing at the start of the line thus the c preprocessor does not treat the hash symbol as the start of a directive however the ibm cpp strips the comment and treats the hash symbol as the start of a directive the cpp fails when it determines that this is not a known directive i have temporarily hacked my imake to handle this situation but would like to come up with a better fix several imakefiles use as a parameter to a macro when a particular use of the macro does not need a value for the parameter the aix cpp gives warnings about these situations but continues to work ok if you are familiar with these problems and have solutions i would appreciate information about on your solutions perhaps this is solved in a later version of imake that i have not reviewed also do you know of other cpp s that behave similarly since i do not have easy access to news a response to white billy po gis prc com would be appreciated
comp.windows.x	imake on dos and windows has anyone had experience porting imake to dos using a microsoft watcom or any other dos compiler since i do not have easy access to news a response to white billy po gis prc com would be appreciated
comp.windows.x	post script viewer hello recently i have been printing out a lot of files on school s laser printer and feeling guilty about it please help me by showing me where to get a post script viewer for x windows thank you for your help a student trying to enhence his cybernatic ability
comp.windows.x	re forcing a window manager to accept specific coordinates for a window in article r l g bub wsinfo win tue nl rcb wsinfo win tue nl richard verhoeven writes sorry but olwm and tvtwm don t do it they place the title at that position and the window at a position below it this becomes a problem when you want a program to be able to save its current configuration and restore is later currently my solution is xcreatewindow xsetwmproperties xmapwindow xflush xmovewindow it works with olwm but is less than elegant all this leaves me wondering if i m overlooking something obvious richard i know that the mwm has an resource to specify if positions are to be used for the border of a window or for the user window maybe other window managers have similar options another way to figure out the difference between the user window position and the window manager decoration window position is to subtract their positions you just have to use xquerytree and remember that the window manager decorations window is the parent of your window unfortunately you can only figure out the decoration width and height after the window has been mapped this way greeting tobias bading cs tu berlin de
comp.windows.x	re animation with xputimage in article apr nrao edu rgooch rp csiro au richard gooch writes remove the shared memory segment terrible but it works why is that terrible that s exactly the way our code has been doing it for two years now and is the way that temporary files in unix systems are managed most of the time open unlink burkhard neidecker lutz distributed multimedia group cec karlsruhe eerp portfolio manager software motion pictures berkom ii project multimedia base technology digital equipment corporation neidecker nestvx enet dec com
comp.windows.x	image plotting source code needed hi i m looking for source sample on how to create a window with an image in it actually a dim matrix of unsigned char any help will be appreciated
comp.windows.x	question on motif diaog shell widget under vuewm dear netters i have noticed something rather weared i think about creating a dialog shell widget while running hp vue s vuewm for some reason every time i create a dialog shell the foreground and backgroun d colors are different compared to my toplevel shell i am not doing anything special different does any body know anything about this problem how to fix it without hardcodin g the colors please respond to kamlesh salzo cary nc usa thanks kamlesh
comp.windows.x	x benchmarks we are in the process of evaluating x terminals this includes running xremote over a serial line i would like to run some x benchmarks to determine comparative performance has anyone written any such benchmarks or know of any useful programs on the net i heard of a program called xstone but i couldn t locate it using archie please reply to afielden mlsma att com as i don t get to read this newsgroup much thanks in advance for any help andrew fielden at t network systems uk tel information systems group sun support email afielden mlsma att com
comp.windows.x	hypercard for unix hi netlanders does anybody know if there is something like macintosh hypercard for any unix platform thanks in advance ron
comp.windows.x	re numlock masking interference with meta compose extendchar ralph seguin rps arbortext com wrote my question is this is there a means of determining what the state of capslock and or numlock is alright ignore this i have delved a bit deeper xkeyevent and found what i was looking for ev state has a bunch of masks to check against lockmask is the one for capslock unfortunately it appears that the numlock mask varies from server to server how does one tell what mask is numlock and which are for meta mod mask mod mask mod mask mod mask mod mask eg sgi s vendor server has mod mask being numlock whereas solaris openwindows has mod mask for numlock is there an unambiguous means of determining numlock s mask at runtime for any given server sorry for the wasted bandwidth and my appalling ignorance you ll have to check the keysym s on each of the keys for each modifier the one with numlock in its mapping is the modifier you want a bit ugly perhaps but i think its currently the only way to do this and it does have some precedent as keysyms are used to differentiate capslock from shiftlock for the lock modifier i don t know of an accepted strategy for handling ambiguous assignments either ie what if numlock is mapped for more then one modifier i suppose first found is as good as any x doesn t handle locking modifiers that well hope that helps dave lapp standard disclaimer etc
comp.windows.x	motif based graphing package i am in need of a motif based graphing package to integrate into a large software package under development for distribution to universities it can be either public domain or commercial although a commercial package can t have royalties required for binary only distribution we need d graphing capabilities at a minimum but d would be nice any info would be appreciated and i will summarize if there is interest thanks mitch mitchell s baltuch unidata program center mitch unidata ucar edu ucar po box boulder co
comp.windows.x	re postscript on x terminal i tried to e mail you but it bounced so hi there in article his uucp you write from sp henhj edit henrik balthazar hjort subject postscript on x terminal i have a problem when i m using postscript when i am working local on a sun sparcstaton ipc the postscript works good but when i connect to the sun from a x terminal i just get error messages that the postscript cannot connect to the news display why doesn t postscript work on an x terminal is there any way to make it work it might be that the x terminal doesn t support the postscript extensions to x product i use the dxpsview program on a decstation to view postscript files but when i moved to an ncd x terminal i couldn t use it any more so i ftp d and compiled ghostscript gnu software now we can view postscript files on our x terminals hope this helps grant henrik henrik hjort hjort grant totten programmer analyst trent university peterborough ontario gtotten trentu ca phone fax take everything in stride trample anyone who gets in your way
comp.windows.x	re hypercard for unix in article apr bernina ethz ch queloz bernina ethz ch ronald queloz writes hi netlanders does anybody know if there is something like macintosh hypercard for any unix platform thanks in advance ron try metacard a hypercard like programming environment on x chun hong
comp.windows.x	re forcing a window manager to accept specific coordinates for a window in article bading apr athene cs tu berlin de bading cs tu berlin de tobias doping bading writes i know that the mwm has an resource to specify if positions are to be used for the border of a window or for the user window maybe other window managers have similar options another way to figure out the difference between the user window position and the window manager decoration window position is to subtract their positions you just have to use xquerytree and remember that the window manager decorations window is the parent of your window unfortunately you can only figure out the decoration width and height after the window has been mapped this way another way would be to use getgeometry to find out where you are relative to the frame and translatecoordinates to find out where your window s upperleft corner really is ethan
comp.windows.x	re key definitions in emacs x in a prior article ajaffe oddjob uchicago edu andrew jaffe wrote hi i use emacs and i want to customize my keyboard better when i set up stuff in my emacs with a keymap and define keys i can only access certain of the keys on my x terminal s keyboard i can t get e g f home end pgup pgdn they all seem to have either the same or no keycode i have a feeling this can t be fixed in emacs itself but that i need to do some xmodmap stuff can someone help me unfortunately the key event handling is pretty much hardwired into emacs i ran into this problem a while back my solution was to change the source code so that all of these special keys generated character sequences which basically encoded the keysym and modifier state as escape sequences for example the sequence esc b would indicate that the home key was pressed with the shift key down you could also detect standard keys with odd modifiers such as shift return if anybody wants these changes they re welcome to them but you ll have to have the source available and be comfortable munging with it a bit basically you have to replace the keypress handling code in the source file x term c maybe if someone at osf is interested i can send them the tweaks but i imagine they ve got bigger fish to fry hopefully including the much talked about emacs v if there s sufficient interest i ll post the mods somewhere although this probably isn t the appropriate group for it notes this special code will only apply if you let emacs create its own x window if you run it in plain old tty mode which includes xterm windows then it s business as usual the patches i made were to version under sun os i also did this a while back under hp ux the patches are in a chunk of code between if sun endif but could easily be adapted for anything else mark lanzo kd qlz lanzo tekelec com xx
comp.windows.x	re title for xterm in a prior article naoumov physics unc edu sergei naoumov writes hey guys i work on many stations and would like this name and current logname to be in a title of xterm when it s open and a machine name only when it s closed in other words i want host and logname to appear as a title of opened xterm and host when xterm is closed how can i do it apologies if i m answering something already answered in the faq our news feed has been losing a lot of articles lately so i haven t seen the faq lately to check two ways when you start the xterm you can use command line options n icon name to set the icon label t window title to set the window title title window title equivalent to t window title you can use escape sequences to change things on the fly the basic escape sequence is esc p some arbitary text bel where esc and bel are the ascii escape and bell characters p is an ascii decimal digit or depending on whether you are trying to set the window or icon title or both and some arbitary text is your desired label string hence this command will set the window icon title echo your title goes here c to set just the icon title echo your title goes here c to set just the window title echo your title goes here c of course you may have to fiddle with exact syntax depending on how the echo command works on your system and what shell you are using i ve shown system v semantics under bourne or korn shells hint for sun os users use usr bin echo instead of bin echo or csh s built in echo otherwise you ll have to embed literal esc and bel characters in the string instead of using convenient octal sequences if you want your titlebar updated continously say to show your current directory hostname or somesuch then you ll have to see if you can coerce your shell into spitting out the appropriate escape sequences when it prompts for commands sometimes you can just put the appropriate escape sequence in the prompt string itself sometimes not mark lanzo kd qlz lanzo tekelec com xx
comp.windows.x	re how do i find my appcontext in a prior article masc ucsnews sdsu edu todd greene said is there an xt call to give me my application context i am fixing up an x motif program and am trying to use xtappaddtimeout whose first argument is the app context what call can i use to give me this value xtappcontext xtwidgettoapplicationcontext widget of course just using the app context returned from xtcreateapplicationcontext xtappinitialize etc is the best option unless that path is not available
comp.windows.x	help xdm solaris i recently read here that sun has a patch for xdm on solaris i was wondering if anyone could give me the patch number thanks in advance tracy tolley university of central florida technical support
comp.windows.x	re problem running aix info from a sun rlogin shell in r bcinn ei ome sps mot com wcl risc sps mot com wayne long writes when i run our rs s info utility through a remote login shell rlogin from my sun sparc i can no longer type lower case in any of info s window prompt s i thought the prob may have been due to my sun window mgr openlook being incompatible with the aix motif application but i tried it under tvtwm also same result so this is presumably an x key definition problem between workstations but my system admins feign ignorance what do i need to do the be able to type lower case into this remote aix motif app from within my local openlook window manager wayne long oe internet wcl risc sps mot com william cannon drive west uucp cs texas edu oakhill risc wcl austin texas phone fax i have had the exact same problem but have not figured out a solution i run a pc with linux free unix with x r and openwindows i would appreciate any solutions ewz internet ziegenfe moravian edu uucp rutgers lafcol batman ziegenfe
comp.windows.x	xfree need help hi i just got xfree running on my pc with consensys and encountered a few minor i hope probems the pc is hooked up to a lan where i want remote x applications to connect to my x server i believe the command to permit this is xhost when i m logged on my pc and type xhost i get the error message saying you must be on local machine to enable access what does this mean ain t i already on the local machine another problem i have is with the mouse movement i find that the mouse cursor moves extremely slow and choppy how can i make the mouse cursor move more accurately thank in advance any help is much appreciated please send replies to christy alex qc ca christy
comp.windows.x	summary xon and x r hi folks thanks to the ones that replied however my problem turned out to be very simple in my xresources i had a space after xterm font x removing this and xrdb fixed my problem also same symptom was that some of my users did not have the proper capitals for xterm font thanks again bob
comp.windows.x	x load on the network can someone point me in the direction of any papers not necessarily formally conducted studies discussing how much traffic x apps generate for the network particularly in comparison with curses bases apps over telnet also does an x server typically buffer up user keyboard input a line at a time can the x client control this asking for keystrokes immediately thanks in advance for any feedback bob kline phoenix systems inc bkline occs nlm nih gov voice
comp.windows.x	athena widgets where do i find the athena widgets that are needed for xtdm thanks in advance
comp.windows.x	subscribe subscribe min stella skku ac kr
comp.windows.x	re need shading program example in x in article a tgv com mahan tgv com patrick l mahan writes do anyone know about any shading program based on xlib in the public domain i need an example about how to allocate correct colormaps for the program appreciate the help i don t know if this might help but i ve just started playing with a program called povray persistance of vision raytracer that also displays its output via x windows it does a fairly good job of allocating the colormap on my psuedo color plane display i got the source from from a site in canda the person i retrieved them from was david buck dbuck ccs carleton ca i think the original post was searching for existing implementations of f i gouroud shading of triangles this is fairly complex to do with plain x simpler shading models are implemented already f i in x d ask archie where to get the latest version for gouroud a fast implementation will be possible utilizing some extension only either mit shm to do the shade in an image and fast update the window with it or pex opengl which should be able to shade themselves the portable vanilla x way would be to shade in a normal ximage and use xputimage what would be good enough to do static things as f i fractal landscapes or such stuff to speak about povray the x previewer that comes with the original source package is not that good especially in speed protocol friendlyness and icccm compliance have a look on x q my own preview code it is on pub gfx ray misc x q the readme states the points where it is better than xwindow c from povray o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.windows.x	moolit and olit does anyone know the difference between moolit and olit does sun support moolit is moolit available on sparcstations i have recntly downloaded a copy of wkshtree written by eric wallengren of univel there are many widgets that are apparently available only to moolit but not olit is there a wkshtree program available under olit steved cfcl com
comp.windows.x	is authentication a planned feature for x r greetings my question is whether the upcoming release of x r will provide strong authentication between the x clients and server s if so will this feature be based on the kerberos authentication mechanism and if so will kerberos version be used please reply via email thanks andre andre s cosma rrc n bellcore security and andre bae bellcore com hoes lane data services piscataway nj
comp.windows.x	x on amiga i m new to the hardware and with a mandate to port some x based stereo video software does anyone know of or have experience with x on amiga machines if i can retain the x event handling it would ease my plight considerably and if i can keep all the motif bits so much the better gary lawrence murphy garym virtual rose utoronto ca university of toronto industrial eng dept fax taddle creek rd toronto ont m s a voice the true destination is always just here now
comp.windows.x	help os presentation mgr port to x i need to port several os pm applications to x openwindows or motif and desperately need any information on how to go about doing this short of a complete rewrite are there any tool to make porting easer any references any talent out there to hire to do this i will even take an os presentation mgr emulator for sun any and all replies except flames welcome brian colaric brian colaric dallas central sun com
comp.windows.x	re xt intrinsics slow popups bryan boreham bryan alex com wrote in article minster york ac uk cjhs minster york ac uk writes the application creates window with a button quit and press me the button press me pops up a dialog box the strange feature of this program is that it always pops up the dialog box much faster the first time if i try to pop it up a nd time rd th time it is much slower the shell is waiting for the window manager to respond to its positioning request the window manager is not responding because it thinks the window is already in the right place exactly why the two components get into this sulk is unclear to me all information greatly received thanks for this clue and thanks to derek ho also for a pointer in the same direction one solution due to derek ho when the popup is popped up we setvalue its location which on repeat popups will be unchanged from the previous popup the slow response can be avoided by calling getvalue first and only using setvalue if the required location is different the problem can also be avoided by making a tiny alteration in the location of the popup so that the setvalue really does change the location of the popup we tried this just for a double check on the source of the problem the solutions we have tried successfully are now as follows use twm or mwm rather than olwm use olwm with resource wmtimeout only reset the location of the popup window if it is truely changed this is obviously working around some bug somewhere thanks chris ho stuart
comp.windows.x	overriding window manager focus processing i am working on an x window based application that needs to override some of the window manager focus processing i am using x r and motif currently although i will also be working with open look in the future what i need to do is under certain circumstances prevent the user from switching from one window of the application to another window let s say for example that window a is on top of window b in the window hierarchy normally if the user clicks the mouse in window b it will be brought to the top of the window hierarchy and placed on top of window a under certain circumstances if the user clicks the mouse in window b i need to beep and prevent window b from being raised on top of window a from the research and testing i ve done so far it appears that this window ordering is handled by the window manager in this case motif i haven t found any way to override this default processing through standard x window functions i can tell when this switching occurs through focus change and mapping notify events but i can t find any way to tell motif not to make the switch the temporary solution i ve currently come up with is very kludgy but it partially works when i detect such a window switch in those cases when the switch is not allowed i manually force the formerly top window back on top with an xraisewindow call and beep with the xbell function this provides the necessary functionality but looks ugly when the windows switch places twice does anyone know how i can tell motif or preferably any window manager when i don t want the window order switch to actually take place respond either by e mail or posting to this newsgroup cheers randall randall severy uunet uunet ge severy ge information services internet ge severy uunet uu net n washington st mc a genie rsevery rockville md usa phone
comp.windows.x	re xt intrinsics slow popups in article minster york ac uk cjhs minster york ac uk writes cjhs minster york ac uk wrote help i am running some sample problems from o reilly volume xt intrisics programming manual chapter popup dialog boxes and so on in example page creating a pop up dialog box the application creates window with a button quit and press me the button press me pops up a dialog box the strange feature of this program is that it always pops up the dialog box much faster the first time if i try to pop it up a nd time rd th time it is much slower has anyone any experience with these sample programs or why i get this behaviour fast response time for the first time but slow response time from nd time onwards anyone can give me some ideas on how to program popups so that each time they popup in reasonable fast response time thankyou shirley thanks to those who responded we were able to prevent this behaviour by two methods running twm rather than olwm keeping olwm but putting wmtimeout in the resources it has been suggested that the difficuty was something to do with the window manager positioning the popup window any guru who can analyse what is going on from this information please post and let us know thanks shirley i ran in to this problem i while ago and from what i remember you should use xttranslatecoordinates etc after realizing the main widget to calculate the location of the popup then use something like xtvasetvalues on the popup widgets before ever using them calling setvalues repeatedly e g every time something pops up seems to be what slows you down i never delved deep enough to figure out exactly why though jeremy payne uiuc neuroscience program college of medicine jrpayne uiuc edu
comp.windows.x	looking for x window server frequency of operations data hello i m currently designing the architecture of a chip which is intended to help speed up common operations on a windowing system such as x a friend and i are designing the chip as the final course project for an advanced computer architecture course taught by dr fred brooks at unc chapel hill while we feel that we ve got a pretty solid design currently we d really like to get ahold of some frequency data from an x windows server so that we can make the most effective use of our bit budget unfortunately i ve been unable to find anything of this sort in the various x faqs or x manuals that i ve seen does anyone have some type of frequency data like how many copy rectangle operations vs draw lines and things of that sort or barring that a program that records requests to the server into a logfile that i can munge on myself any and all help would be very appreciated many thanks mark mark a deloura deloura cs unc edu u of north carolina chapel hill
comp.windows.x	re q colormaps with dialog shells dyoung media mit edu david young writes i have an applicationshell which uses a colormap created with xcreatecolormap and uses all of the colors available for my bit display when i popup a dialogshell to prompt the user for some input i want the xmndialogstyle to be set to xmdialog primary application modal the result is that if my cursor is over the dialogshell i get my colormap but if the cursor is over the applicationshell or any window other than the dialogshell i get the default colormap but i d like it so that if my cursor is over any window of my application i get my colormap i think this is correct behavior remember the default colormapfocuspolicy is keyboard meaning the cmap focus follows the keyboard focus since the dialog is modal mwm won t allow keyboard focus onto your main shell and so it won t allow cmap focus either since it sounds as though you have keyboardfocuspolicy pointer i suggest you set colormapfocuspolicy pointer also that way the cmap focus won t slavishly follow keyboard focus but will beat its own path if you have keyboardfocuspolicy explicit you can set cmap focus explicit also but you then need a binding to f focus color probably on mb david brooks dbrooks osf org open software foundation uunet osf org dbrooks showres soote my foote
comp.windows.x	x toolkits i am considering making a reasonably large application for free distribution probably copylefted i am going to use x now i m bewildered by the huge number of standards that open systems has created i ve lived in a fairly tookit sheltered environment most of the tools here were produced with the athena widget set or x intrinsics or xw in my humble opinion they look like crap i don t know however if this is a characteristic of the tookits or just poor aestetic taste in the programmers i would like my app to look a little more sculptured like mwm i understand however that mwm isn t free like the other tookits i am getting linux so i will have interviews but i don t know how it will look i get the impression andrew is from the fsf but i don t know what it looks like either if you can help explain this toolkit mess to me i would be much obliged which are free which are the best which are portable which looks nice which is not a resource hog also if you happen to know which are available on linux and or sun that would be a big help too thanks in advance
comp.windows.x	problems with color xterm we have recently obtained a copy of color xterm from export lcs mit edu after seeing it mentioned in a previous article on compilation it reports the following undefined symbols get wmshellwidgetclass get applicationshellwidgetclass but still runs when sending escape sequences to set the colour any colour comes out as black text on a black background any ideas has anyone used this program in colour successfully can anyone point me to any other colour terminal emulators we are running openwindows on sun sparcs running sunos advathanksnce ben kelley ben thor dbsm oz au
comp.windows.x	re title for xterm in article apr gecko uucp lanzo tekelec com mark lanzo writes hint for sun os users use usr bin echo instead of bin echo or csh s built in echo otherwise you ll have to embed literal esc and bel characters in the string instead of using convenient octal sequences bad idea using usr bin echo is slower than the built in echo this is what i do it does execute hostname once per shell window and does read in one extra file but manipluating the titles does not require executing extra programs oh yes it does execute some programs once per each system but it stores them in a file for the next time if hostname then setenv hostname hostname endif figure how how to generate escape bell and echo commands without a a line terminator i may have done this before if so the variable e is set have i executed this script before on this system if e then echo already set the echo variables dev tty else if f echo hostname then source echo hostname else if echo n wc l then echo built in echo is bsd dev tty then berkeley style echo echo set ech echo n echo hostname echo set e echo a tr a echo hostname echo set b echo a tr a echo hostname echo set n echo hostname source echo hostname else echo built in echo is sysv dev tty echo set ech echo echo hostname echo set e echo hostname echo set b echo hostname echo set n c echo hostname source echo hostname endif are we using shelltool cmdtool or xterm duplicate these aliases here to avoid problems if term sun then sun aliases alias header ech e l e n alias iheader ech e l e n else if term xterm then alias header ech e b n alias iheader ech e b n endif bruce barnett barnett crd ge com uunet crdgw barnett
comp.windows.x	xrn xarchie for hp s hi i need xrn and xarchie for the hp s version os either in the source form or preferably in executable form please suggest where i can find this send e mail to rao cse uta edu thanks in advance rao ssc
comp.windows.x	pulldown menu periodically hangs application on openwindows has anyone found a fix for the following problem client software sunos x r server hardware sun ipc server software sunos open windows w patch a motif application will periodically hang when run against the openwindows server xnews the pulldown is displayed but then no button actions have any effect sometimes pressing return will unstick the application but not usually it looks like the pulldown is grabbing the focus and never letting go other windows on the display continue to get updated so the server isn t hanging if i log in from another terminal and kill the motif application then everything gets back to normal the same application when run against other x servers including mit x r xsun decwindows tektronix x terminal has no problems this is obviously a openwindows problem but i need a work around since most of our customers are openwindows users i have tried the following things installing the latest version of the openwindows server patch using mwm version instead of olwm applying the patch specified in the motif faq question this had the effect of disabling the point and click method of menu interaction as opposed to the click and drag method and screwing up the menu mnemonics keys it did seem to help but i was still able to get the application to hang repeat by this is an intermittent problem so you ll have to try several times click and release on a menu heading pulldown menu will pop up click and release on a menu item repeat until application hangs any help would be appreciated thanks in advance skip koppenhaver skip eco twg com
comp.windows.x	screen problem in unix xwindows solaris experiment from a sun openwindows xterm window log into a solaris x machine using rlogin now do an ls and get the first character of each line display in the last column of the display with the rest of the line wrapped to the next line of the display log out and the condition persists check stty all try reset with no effect use telnet instead of rlogin and it doesn t occur try it from a unix console and it doesn t occur what s causing this can it be avoided how can the terminal characteristics be reset please send replies to shenk math gatech edu shonkwiler r w georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp allegra amd hplabs seismo ut ngp gatech prism ma rs arpa ma rs prism gatech edu
comp.windows.x	re internationalized menus icon labels i have a problem with icon pixmap my application has to run under openwindow and motif i wrote my program in motif with pixmap and icons it runs fine under motif motif window manager and x r mwm but the icon pixmap does not show up under openwin olwm and x r olwm has anybody got into this kind of problem need a clue an example which works in both x r motif and openwindow will be great jigang yang jigang dale ssc gov jyang sscvx bitnet beckleymeade ave ms tel dallas tx fax
comp.windows.x	icon pixmap problem i have a problem with icon pixmap my application has to run under openwindow and motif i wrote my program in motif with pixmap and icons it runs fine under motif motif window manager and x r mwm but the icon pixmap does not show up under openwin olwm and x r olwm has anybody got into this kind of problem need a clue an example which works in both x r motif and openwindow will be great jigang yang jigang dale ssc gov jyang sscvx bitnet beckleymeade ave ms tel dallas tx fax
comp.windows.x	re x toolkits excerpts from netnews comp windows x apr x toolkits paul prescod undergrad m i am getting linux so i will have interviews but i don t know how it will look i get the impression andrew is from the fsf but i don t know what it looks like either if you re on the internet and your site isn t sheltered from external tcp ip traffic you can use the remote andrew demo to see what the andrew toolkit looks like remote andrew demo service this network service allows you to run andrew toolkit applications without the overhead of obtaining or compiling the andrew software you need a host machine on the internet and you need to be running the x window system a simple finger command will allow you to experience atk applications firsthand you ll be able to compose multimedia documents navigate through the interactive andrew tour and use the andrew message system to browse through cmu s three thousand bulletin boards and newsgroups to use the remote andrew demo service simply run the following command on your machine finger help atk itc cmu edu the service will give you further instructions gary keim andrew consortium
comp.windows.x	re gui study in article apr mercury unt edu seth ponder csci unt edu seth buffington writes cutsie little macintrash like icons that are an instant recipe for mousitis imho system is undoubtedly the worst gui i have used out of that riscos mswombles and x simply because it does not provide enough keyboard shortcuts windows i must confess i quite like cover your ears because you can actually use it without having to ever touch the mouse stuff delete the user rather than making things easier and there should always be the option to do it your way if you want to which is why i like the unix x combination so much it s so customizable hear hear i agree completely one thing i can t stand about the mac interface is its shear determination to force you to use the mouse what if your mouse breaks your whole system is down i like the mouse it is handy on some occassions such as cut and past and moving icons around etc but for most work the keyboard and hot keys are times faster than using the mouse sure it is a plus to be able to do something simple if you are an inexperienced user but how long is it before your are experienced a month two speaking of pcs at the moment i don t think it is too much to ask that window programmers provide not only a menu mouse interface but also look forward to those who would like to move on to hot keys and command line interfaces which usually allows you to do more in less time if you are experienced all of the above equally applies to windowing systems on unix especially since unix is at least more powerful than dos and at least more user unfriendly as well
comp.windows.x	re x on amiga in article yd ie utoronto ca garym ie utoronto ca gary murphy writes i m new to the hardware and with a mandate to port some x based stereo video software does anyone know of or have experience with x on amiga machines if i can retain the x event handling it would ease my plight considerably and if i can keep all the motif bits so much the better there is x for the amiga but it ll cost you gfxbase inc owned by dale luck one of the original amiga architects sells x for the amiga there are many options available including motif call em and get the scoop gfxbase inc ellwell drive phone milpitas ca fax i ve got no connection with them other than being a satisfied customer joe hartley jh cadre com whenever you find that you are on the cadre technologies side of the majority it is time to reform m twain richmond st providence ri overman st class the kilgore trout memorial clench x of the church of the subgenius
comp.windows.x	how to make simplest possible composite widget not being an xt programmer by any stretch of the imagination this is driving me crazy and it s probably really simple to do i need to make a composite widget that does nothing at all but is merely a placeholder in a widget instance heirarchy allowing me an additional resource name level to illustrate i have an application with the following widget heirarchy shell widget application widghet i want the following shell widget intermediate widget application widget where the intermediate widget has a name but gets all its other properties and propagates down new values from the shell widget i assume there s a simple way to do this but i can t find an example and the documentation i have is rather vague about implementing composite widgets please respond via email any help will be very much appreciated jim frost jimf centerline com
comp.windows.x	re x toolkits libxaw d the d athena widget set will greatly improve the sculptured look in linux with its shared jump table libs you don t even have to recompile or relink you merely have to ln sf lib libxaw d so lib libxaw so thomas
comp.windows.x	file formats hi folks can anyone give me some information the location of some information or some reference material for the following file formats wiff mo dca ioca pcx if this is not quite the appropriate place to ask such questions please let me know a more appropriate one and accept my apologies in advance thanks for your help rich rollman dogleg systems inc
comp.windows.x	changing colors on a label help i have a togglebutton widget yes widget and i have a routine which changes the color of the foreground and background of the label well the background changes alright but the label text does not redraw itself i am guessing that i have to force it to redraw with an xexposeevent sent to it via xsendevent is this the best way to get the text up again i can t seeem to get xsendevent to work right if this is a good approach might anyone have an example lying around to show me how to do this i ve rtfm all evening and did not find a decent example ps i keep getting segmentation faults in xsendevent tho all the values are as expected thanks in advance stephen m dahmen
comp.windows.x	color xterm i m look for current patches for color xterm for x r pl ro higher could someone please tell me where to get them for e mail them to me thanks egan f ford egan phony cc utah edu hellgate utah edu
comp.windows.x	re x toolkits in article c y wj ze undergrad math uwaterloo ca papresco undergrad math uwaterloo ca paul prescod writes i am considering making a reasonably large application for free distribution probably copylefted i am going to use x now i m the following packages meet your criteria in that they are pd and present an aesthetically pleasant graphical interface to the users if you can use bsd there is xview openlook there is interviews which looks a little like motif there is gopath a very nice c toolkit for athena widgets and motif which is simpler and better than interviews and you will enjoy technical support from bull via e mail it has a nice draw program it uses motif which can be used to create graphical front end to programs the data format is called streams which you can feed to your programs i ported gopath on an internet machine which is gone but if you use gcc with minimal effort gopath can be ported to bsd last but not least gopath interfaces to toolkits via a driver module they have an ms windows driver module for instance also many have written extensions to tk tcl thus allowing powerful applications for instance tcl nm has snmp extensions for tk tcl with ease i can now combine snmp network operations with graphs photo widget graphical interface file operations database operations etc the author of tcl nm mail me a simple network management application which was about lines long it displayed various environmental parameters from a router i wrote a simple strip chart script for displaying real time ip received packets seconds hope this helps amancio hasty this message brought to you by the letters x and s and the number amancio hasty home ftp site depository of all my work e mail hasty netcom com sunvis rtpnc epa gov pub bsd incoming
comp.windows.x	re screen problem in unix xwindows solaris shonkwiler r w ma rs prism gatech edu wrote experiment from a sun openwindows xterm window log into a solaris x machine using rlogin now do an ls and get the first character of each line display in the last column of the display with the rest of the line wrapped to the next line of the display log out and the condition persists check stty all try reset with no effect the condition happens when the tab is not set to spaces set and then check out suresh sivaprakasam department of computer science suny buffalo amherst ny internet sivap s cs buffalo edu bitnet sivap s sunybcs bitnet
comp.windows.x	re xdm decnet while i cannot answer questions about running xdm over a decnet i can say that the following defines must be added to the site def before building r before any x clients will work over a decnet from site def define connectionflags dtcpconn dunixconn ddnetconn define extralibraries ldnet hoping this helps george the opinions expressed are those of the author and in no way represent the opinions of the cuny graduate school its agencies or personnel mcc timessqr gc cuny edu cmcgc cunyvm bitnet the opinions expressed are those of the author and in no way represent the opinions of the cuny graduate school its agencies or personnel mcc timessqr gc cuny edu cmcgc cunyvm bitnet
comp.windows.x	x server for nt has anybody generated an x server for windows nt if so are you willing to share your config file and other tricks necessary to make it work thanks for any information bill steer westinghouse
comp.windows.x	now available xvertext now available xvertext summary xvertext provides you with four functions to draw strings at any angle in an x window previous versions were limited to vertical text rotation is still achieved using ximages but the notion of rotating a whole font first has been dropped what s new i ve added a cache which keeps a copy of previously rotated strings thus speeding up redraws where can i get it comp sources x soon export lcs mit edu contrib xvertext shar z now alan richardson you don t have to be school of maths physical sciences old to be wise univ of sussex brighton bn qh england judas priest uk mppa uk ac sussex syma elsewhere mppa syma sussex ac uk
comp.windows.x	xcursor xcursor version is now on export as xcursor tar z i ve added a new option to determine if a requested cursor size is ok of course your server may lie richard neitzel thor thor atd ucar edu torren med sitt skjegg national center for atmospheric research lokkar borni under sole vegg box boulder co gjo i med sitt shinn jagar borni inn
comp.windows.x	bitplaned non chunky pixel cfb is there a pd version of cfb or other pd server stuff which has a colour frame buffer implementation which works in bitplaned mode i e where the screen memory is grouped so that bit of every pixel is here bit is there etc the only such beast i know if at the moment is the gfxbase server for the commodore amiga and it is commercial i don t know if they wrote their own cfb but i suspect they did please respond by email as i don t read this group many thanks dave david crooke department of computer science university of edinburgh janet dcc ed dcs internet dcc dcs ed ac uk ip talk dcc work jcmb rm king s bldgs w mains rd edinburgh eh jz home fl woodburn terr m side edinburgh eh st tel
comp.windows.x	xwd segmentation fault i was planning to use the following pipe to move some display data to a system that has a color hardcopy unit xwd xwud display hostname i had tested it with some simple windows like the openwindows file manager and it worked fine but when i tried it with a more complex larger image the xwd part blew up with a segmentation fault i tried it without the pipe by redirecting xwd s output to a file and then used the file as input to xwud and got the same error from xwud if i had to guess it seems like it s running out of memory but this happened on a sparc with megs meg swap space and only one user with minimal activity the file was about mb this verion of xwd xwud was supplied with the sun openwindows distribution which i believe corresponds to x r any ideas thanks in advance dave humes johns hopkins university applied physics laboratory humesdg aplcomm jhuapl edu
comp.windows.x	announcing tcpview a motif based tcp ip protocol analyzer tcpview is the result of several problems we had at uw we have several network general sniffers which are heavily used to help debug problems on several hundred subnets these are good tools but they are heavy hard to find when you need one limited in their software expandibility difficult to use to upload data for analysis cannot be remotely operated and cannot resolve names with dns requiring much manual manipulation of the name table we also sometimes use tcpdump but we found it too difficult for most people did not have enough information for many protocols could not be used interactively could not handle tcp streams and could not read sniffer files however tcpdump did do a reasonable job of decoding a large number of protocols and could be easily modified tcpview is an attempt to resolve these problems by adding a motif interface to tcpdump and expanding its features tcpview has been tested on a decstation and sun under ultrix and sunos respectively it should work on the same systems as tcpdump it compiles with cc and gcc on the dec and sun to build tcpview you will need motif or better the following files are available for anonymous ftp from ftp cac washington edu in pub networking tcpview tar z tcpview and tcpdump source code tcpview sun tar z sun binaries tcpview dec tar z dec mips ultrix binaries what tcpview adds to tcpdump easier interface enhanced protocol decoding hex display of frame capture based on time number of frames or user interrupt can show ethernet addresses with manufacturer s name ethernet address host table can easily follow a stream highlighting out of order frames can send tcp data to an external file or filter for additional processing changes to tcpdump new features now reads and writes network general sniffer files when used with r the file type will be automatically detected can now read in and use an snmp mib file the hex format has been changed new time options have been added options were added to allow viewing and processing of the data in tcp packets bugs were fixed in the relative tcp sequence numbers s flag new flags r read sniffer file not usually needed except for reading from stdin ttt prints delta times tttt prints times relative to the first frame w write a sniffer save file use with w x print frame minus link level header in hexdump format sample output jeff cac washington edu nic funet fi ftp s win a c c c f e p d b a d j e p n x print tcp data in hexdump format used with z z write tcp data to stdout use with t to eliminate timestamp z write frames and tcp data to stdout martin m hunt martinh cac washington edu networks distributed computing university of washington martin hunt martinh cac washington edu networks and distributed computing university of washington
comp.windows.x	how to see characterset from wchar t we developed a toolkit running on the x window system the toolkit copes with any languages based on x r s i n facility as you know there are kinds of i n implementation from mit s x r release xsi and ximp our original implementation of the toolkit uses xsi our toolkit manages each character s size based on our own font management system in order to do that the wchar t typed character strings must be decomposed to character sets this means that if one wchar t type compound string with ascii and kanji mixed for example is given each element of the wchar t array must be checked its corresponding character set based on a bit layout and application environment s locale in this case if the locale is japanese each wchar t character will be classified either to iso jisx or so we need a function to do this the function must check how many characters from the top are the same character set and what the character set is we could not find any public x r function to do that and inevitably used xsi s internal functions to construct that function the following is the source code of that function decomposecharacterset i n h this may look like c code but it is really c id i n h v iima exp iima ifndef i n h define i n h include x xlib h extern int decomposecharacterset const wchar t wc str in int wc len in char buf out int buflen in out int scanned len out char charset out extern xmstring wchartoxmstring const wchar t wc str extern xmstringcharset charsetofwchar const wchar t wc endif i n h i n cc id i n cc v iima exp include stdlib h include x xlibint h include xm xm h include i n h extern c include x wchar h define xwcdecomposeglyphcharset xxx xwcdecomposeglyphcharset define xmbfscs xxx xmbfscs define xmbctidtocsid xxx xmbctidtocsid include xlocaleint h undef xwcdecomposeglyphcharset undef xmbfscs undef xmbctidtocsid extern int xwcdecomposeglyphcharset xlocale const wchar t int char int int int extern charset xmbfscs xlocale csid extern csid xmbctidtocsid xlocale csid int decomposecharacterset const wchar t wc str in int wc len in char buf out int buf len in out int scanned len out char charset out xlocale xlocale xfallbackconvert int ctid int status charset xcharset status xwcdecomposeglyphcharset xlocale wc str wc len buf buf len scanned len ctid if status success xcharset xmbfscs xlocale xmbctidtocsid xlocale ctid charset xcharset xcharset cs name null else charset null return status an included file above xlocaleint h is also xsi internal and we copied the file to the toolkit directory and compiled a serious issue occured when we tried to compile a toolkit application on our hp machine with its os version of hp ux when we tried to link an application based on our toolkit link errors occured saying that the following functions are missing xmbctidtocsid code xmbfscs code xwcdecomposeglyphcharset code xfallbackconvert code we had used mit release version of x r and its xsi implementation until hp up and ran applications successfully one of the reasons to use xsi was that because hp did not release hp s x r until the os and we had no way to know how hp s r would be implemented we had hoped xsi s popularity and used its internal functions the hp s linker complains that there are no xsi internal functions implemented we observe from hp s libx a they used some ximp implementation but we are not sure if they used mit s vanilla ximp version or their own version of ximp and therefore finding just counter part functions in mit s ximp for xsi does not seem to lead us a solution my question and goal is to know how we can construct a function like decomposecharacterset listed above is there any function to check character set of each element of wchar t type strings depending on locales if it is a public function that is perfect but even if it is not we want to use any internal functions in hp s x r as we did for mit s r in order to render a wchar t type string there must be some machinery to judge character sets and that is how the proper fonts are selected for the string we have no way to find out that without any hp s x r source files we want to know how we can use that for our goal any help or comments would be highly appreciated i also appreciate if anyone tell me about ximp treating around this area even if it is not hp s implementation thank you takeshi inoue inoue crd yokogawa co jp yokogawa electric corporation open systems laboratory
comp.windows.x	re looking for a filemanager under x r in article apr atlastele com brians atlastele com brian sheets writes does anyone have a file manager that runs under unix x r xdtm is working looking at as is ftptool there really isn t anything of any quality that i ve seen though and i m seriously considering writing one on my own mike hopper acs virginia edu i will not raise taxes on the middle class unknown
comp.windows.x	installing mit x r on apollo can any apollo gurus out there let me know of their experiences building mit x r with or without gcc in particular is there anything i should watch out for thanks in advance tim tim liddelow for fork systems programmer centre of advanced technology in telecommunications my brain on a bad day citri melbourne australia internet tim kimba catt citri edu au phone fax
comp.windows.x	change default visual my hp workstation uses pseudocolor id x colors as the default visual how can i start x with different visual as default
comp.windows.x	x bitmap postscript hey folks on the course to develope a x window application we encountered a problem how could i transform a x window bitmap into a postscript files is there any library routines or source code i can call to do the job thank you in advance p s email reply please i seldom read this newsgroup
comp.windows.x	re forcing a window manager to accept specific coordinates for a window in article c xxq m cs columbia edu ethan cs columbia edu ethan solomita writes in article bading apr athene cs tu berlin de bading cs tu berlin de tobias doping bading writes i know that the mwm has an resource to specify if positions are to be used for the border of a window or for the user window maybe other window managers have similar options another way to figure out the difference between the user window position and the window manager decoration window position is to subtract their positions you just have to use xquerytree and remember that the window manager decorations window is the parent of your window unfortunately you can only figure out the decoration width and height after the window has been mapped this way another way would be to use getgeometry to find out where you are relative to the frame and translatecoordinates to find out where your window s upperleft corner really is as i ve said before there s no reliable way to find out the size of the window manager decoration if your window has been reparented you can t assume that the window you re parented to is the window that holds all of the window manager decoration there may be several layers of windows doing multiple xquerytree s until you get to the root will work in most cases but there s no guarantee that the outside decoration window is parented to the root window of the display tvtwm tom lastrange toml boulder parcplace com
comp.windows.x	real time data display tool hi i m looking for a x windows tool that can display data in a d plot in real time with a couple different signals anybody know of such a gem please email me as i do not read this group often thanks much eric slimko theslim caen engin umich edu
comp.windows.x	slider position of vertical scrollbars i need help positioning the slider of a list widget s horizontal scrollbar i am displaying the full path of a selected file in a list widget the horizontal s slider defaults to the left side of the list widget however i need the slider on the right side this is so the user can see the file name they selected i know it s possible because when files are displayed in a file selection dialog box the slider is on the right side thanking any and all who can help in advance rodney f clay clay cs scarolina edu
comp.windows.x	xrn xarchie for hp asap hi i need xrn and xarchie for the hp s version os either in the source form or preferably in executable form please suggest where i can find this send e mail to rao cse uta edu thanks in advance rao ssc
comp.windows.x	re asynchronous x windows in ellis nova ellis nova gmi edu r stewart ellis writes is there anyway to use x windows over an async line clearly you could use x it is x window no it isn t it is the x window system or x or x or any of a number of other designations accepted by the x consortium in fact doing man x on pretty much any x machine will tell you the x consortium requests that the following names be used when referring to this software x x window system x version x window system version x there is no such thing as x windows or x window despite the repeated misuse of the forms by the trade rags this probably tells you something about how much to trust the trade rags if they can t even get the name of the window system right why should one trust anything else they have to say with regard to dialup x implementations there are several you can buy serial x terminals from a couple of companies including both graphon and ncd in fact i m composing this from an ncd running x over serial lines across kbaud connection ncd also sells a software only package that provides xremote which is ncd s implementation of serial x for pc s there may be other such software packages available x r is supposed to include a standardized compression scheme for running x over low speed connections it s called low bandwidth x lbx and is based on improved versions of the techniques used in ncd s xremote it seems likely that once lbx is released as a consortium standard there will be several vendors willing to supply implementations for various sorts of hardware followups directed to comp windows x matt landau waiting for a flash of enlightenment matt centerline com in all this blood and thunder
comp.windows.x	re xsun not running on sparcclassic in article r th inndtp tom rz uni passau de rank winf uni passau de christian rank writes i ve installed x r with patches for solaris on our sparcstation lx sparcclassic pool on the lx x r runs fine but on the classics after giving the command startx xsun prints the following messages warning cg mmap can t map dummy space mapping cg c no such device or address and exits does anybody know how to fix this problem i m just guessing here but i d guess that x r expects the cg to have x resolution and the version of the cg in the sparcclassic is x disclaimer i do not represent sunsoft inc sun microsystems inc etc etc brian herzog sunsoft herzog eng sun com sun eng herzog
comp.windows.x	tektronix i remember seeing something in the x distribution mentioning support for a tektronix terminal in an x server is this accurate mike hopper acs virginia edu i will not raise taxes on the middle class unknown
comp.windows.x	re tvtwm xsetroot x r and sparc keyboard barr pop psu edu david barr writes did you install the sunkbd patch it s in the contrib directory on export all the keys on my keyboard send events properly except the following the end pageup pagedown on the key cluster aren t recognized even the compose key works though i can t seem to get the composed characters in an xterm to get passed anyone have a fix for the last two fix the table in x r mit server ddx sun or use xmodmap put stty pass setenv lc ctype iso setenv lesscharset latin in your login the first prevents the stripping of bit the second sets the locale the third makes less show the character instead of the octal representation rj robert joop rj rainbow in berlin fokus gmd cs tu berlin de s joop ou fokus ou berlin p gmd a dbp c de
comp.windows.x	re x window for pc briefly starnet communications has four pc x server packages micro x lite includes integrated tcp ip runs in kb no arcs micro x enlite includes integrated tcp ip runs under dos shape extension interface to novell tcp ip micro x dos ea in a pack includes integrated tcp ip runs under dos shape extension interface to novell tcp ip ftp s pc tcp pc nfs micro x win ea in a pack includes lanera tcpopen tcp ip stack utilities interface to ftp s pc tcp sun s pc nfs winsock for more information contact starnet communications fax lawrence expressway voice santa clara ca e mail microx starnet com
comp.windows.x	how to get bit color with xview frames hi i am using xview on a sparc ipx under openwindows along with a xvideo board from parallax which enables me to use bit color i am having some problems utilizing the bit color and would greatly appreciate any help in this matter i use xview to create a frame and then create a canvas pane inside which i use to display live video my video input is bit color the problem is that my top level frame created as frame frame xv create null frame null seems to have a depth of which is propagated to my canvas i would like to know how i can set the depth of the frame to be bits i tried using the following xlib code xvisualinfo visual info int depth colormap colormap xsetwindowattributes attribs unsigned long valuemask window win xv opaque frame win xv get frame xv xid xmatchvisualinfo display screen depth truecolor visual info so far so good colormap xcreatecolormap display win visual info allocnone it dies here with a badmatch error attribs colormap colormap valuemask cwcolormap xchangewindowattributes display w valuemask attribs xsetwindowcolormap display win colormap am i using a completely wrong approach here is it possible to set the depth and colormap for a window created by xview what am i doing wrong thanks in advance for any help that i can get i would prefer a response via email although a post on the newsgroup is also okay thanks again alok alok mathur computer science engg case western reserve univ cleveland oh fairchild road cleveland oh off res email amathur alpha ces cwru edu
comp.windows.x	compiling x programs hi guys it has been a long time since i wrote a program using x i am trying to get myself re familiarize with x i would appreciate your help regarding the following problem i am trying to compile a simple x program on sun running sunos using cc o ex ex c lxaw lxmu lxt lxext lx lm i am getting an error ld undefined symbol get wmshellwidgetclass get applicationshellwidgetclass the simple program i tried to compile is given below include stdio h include x intrinsic h include x stringdefs h include x xaw form h main argc argv int argc char argv widget toplevel widget frame toplevel xtinitialize ex ex null argc argv frame xtcreatemanagedwidget form formwidgetclass toplevel null xtrealizewidget toplevel xtmainloop i got the same error when i tried to build xpostit using the imakefile provided with the software i have compiled x programs before not on this machine but on other machines running sunos and x r i did not get this error message can anybody tell me why i am getting these messages i would appreciate if you can email your responses to me at azn ruts ccc amdahl com thanks anand
comp.windows.x	re hypercard for unix queloz bernina ethz ch ronald queloz writes hi netlanders does anybody know if there is something like macintosh hypercard for any unix platform there are several products you might investigate if you ve got per seat and high end hardware gain momentum might be a good choice it isn t compatible with hypercard but has a similar architecture and way more functionality i don t have contact information but they were recently purchased by sybase who shouldn t be too hard to find if you re running news on sparc check out hyperlook hyperlook turing com it uses postscript as a scripting language which is good if you need to do lots of display oriented scripting but not so good for non programmers it was last i heard you might also look at our product metacard we re alpha testing direct importing of hypercard stacks we ve even made the test release available for anonymous ftp so we re obviously the closest in functionality metacard runs on most unix workstations and costs email to info metacard com for more details scott thanks in advance ron scott raney remember the better you look raney metacard com the more you ll see lidia
comp.windows.x	regression testing and x i d appreciate any feedback on capture playback tools for use with x clients i have pulled xtm from public domain but it appears to be set up to test x servers not x clients any comparisons comments on regression testing tools would be great particularly xtm xrunner autotester and sri s capbak smarts and exdiff megan grenenger megan cs uq oz au
comp.windows.x	re need shading program example in x i think the original post was searching for existing implementations of f i gouroud shading of triangles this is fairly complex to do with plain x simpler shading models are implemented already f i in x d ask archie where to get the latest version for gouroud a fast implementation will be possible utilizing some extension only either mit shm to do the shade in an image and fast update the window with it or pex opengl which should be able to shade themselves the portable vanilla x way would be to shade in a normal ximage and use xputimage what would be good enough to do static things as f i fractal landscapes or such stuff to speak about povray the x previewer that comes with the original source package is not that good especially in speed protocol friendlyness and icccm compliance have a look on x q my own preview code it is on pub gfx ray misc x q the readme states the points where it is better than xwindow c from povray the version i have is using the x q code instead of the default x windows code i have it currently running on a dec alpha running openvms axp and so far have been pretty impressed the only side effect of x q is that it requires xstdcmap best be run before it will work annoyning but not a show stopper patrick l mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking a person unnecessarily should not be considered lazarus long a capital crime for a first offense that is from the notebooks of lazarus long
comp.windows.x	re tektronix i remember seeing something in the x distribution mentioning support for a tektronix terminal in an x server is this accurate xterm supports x emulation patrick l mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking a person unnecessarily should not be considered lazarus long a capital crime for a first offense that is from the notebooks of lazarus long
comp.windows.x	allocated colors can anyone out there tell me how to get the total number of color cells allocated in the default colormap e g colormap defaultcolormap mydisplay myscreen the maximum number of allocated cells is given by defaultcells mydisplay myscreen but in general the number of cells actually allocated will be much less than this depending on the color requirements of the windows currently in place i d like a way to determine this number thanks in advance derek derek c richardson tel x institute of astronomy fax cambridge u k cb ha e mail dcr mail ast cam ac uk
comp.windows.x	unsubscribe pancamo blkbox comm please unsubscribe pancamo blkbox com this user has become inactive and i wish to discontinue his participation in this mailing list marc newman mknewman lkbox com
comp.windows.x	re drawing lines inverse xor you can also set the foreground to the xor of the foreground and background colors xsetforeground fg bg this works great for me at least with truecolor visuals
comp.windows.x	re x load on the network bkline occs nlm nih gov bob kline writes can someone point me in the direction of any papers not necessarily formally conducted studies discussing how much traffic x apps generate for the network particularly in comparison with curses bases apps over telnet also does an x server typically buffer up user keyboard input a line at a time can the x client control this asking for keystrokes immediately thanks in advance for any feedback ncd has an excellent document titled host loading considerations in the x environment i received my copy by emailing support ncd com this may help out tim white university of south carolina tim otis hssc scarolina edu humanities and social sciences laboratory columbia s c
comp.windows.x	re tektronix in article tgv com mahan tgv com patrick l mahan writes i remember seeing something in the x distribution mentioning support for a tektronix terminal in an x server is this accurate xterm supports x emulation what i was talking about was using an tek terminal as your x display i should be possible to write an x server that does this as far as i can tell but what i m asking is if there is already one mike hopper acs virginia edu i will not raise taxes on the middle class unknown
comp.windows.x	how to mask the left button i am posting this for a friend whose news service is fubared as usual i will forward replies to him or if you want to try to reply directly try return path uunet sunfse ese lmsc lockheed com mcfar pr i have an event handler working for a buttonpressmask like xtaddeventhandler plot data display buttonpressmask false show mouse position plot data but i would like to be able to have two types of actions one to occur with the left mouse the other the right and perhaps one with the middle so my event handler would look more like xtaddeventhandler plot data display left buttonpressmask false show left mouse position plot data xtaddeventhandler plot data display right buttonpressmask false show right mouse position plot data however i don t know how to make my left buttonpressmask there didn t seem to be one in the event mask lists i had on hand although button motionmask looked promising my references also mentioned using to or two mask events can you use to and two masks would i want to in this case any help would be appreciated thanks lrm
comp.windows.x	remote tektronics emulation hello i am looking for someone to help me with the proceedure for remote login via modem not ethernet to our new silicon graphics iris machines i can log in to them only as a vt terminal regardless of what i am emulating on my end i have communication software kermit which supports tek x and vt emulation the x windows manual lists xterm as the appropriate command to change the terminal type when i try it the reponse is unable to open window thanx in advance keith grider keith grider come on man let s go do the crimes kgrider magnus acs ohio state edu yeah lets get sushi and not pay repo man
comp.windows.x	x r on sun cg comes up mono the prints out the following message about it s framebuffer cgtwo at vme d x vec xa cgtwo sun color board fast read anybody know the story on this can i have an impulse item instead henry d reynolds hdr ross com or hdr nidhog cactus org fone x ross technology inc fax hwy west suite austin tx
comp.windows.x	how do i modify key map hello folks i m seeing these errors when i try to modify my key map mwm invalid accelerator specfication line x i ve added a line in the start up file before the line that starts mwm it looks like the following xmodmap keymapfile mwm i think that the problem has to do with a conflict between function keys f through f which already have assigned functions e g move minimize etc the odd thing is that i don t see these errors if i run xmodmap keymapfile from an xterm can anyone suggest a way to modify the key map specifically f through f and not have mwm motif window manager complain i realize this is a bit stupid but we only have time to implement not time to learn how to implement terry
comp.windows.x	re xman source jlong b pps berkeley edu john long writes where can i get xman source i would like to get the binaries for xman for an hp but i would settle for source try xport lcs mit edu in direcotry contrib chun hung lin l t r csie ntu edu tw communication multimedia lab dept of comp sci info eng national taiwan university taipei taiwan r o c
comp.windows.x	faq in comp windows x is there any faq list for programming in x windows thankx for the info bye venky
comp.windows.x	editres under pie tvt wm hi looking for any advice or suggestions about a problem i m having with mit x r s editres in particular under twm variants for a start times out of but not always editres won t grab a widget tree when running on our ncd decwindows xterms which i m told will be fixed when the r not r xdm is installed ok so i tried running it on a sun running real r on the same network i get a widget tree but it s always for twm icon manager anybody know of any patches for a twm or b editres that i should look at thanks k
comp.windows.x	repost xview slider hi xperts this is a repost no one responded to my desperate yell i can t believe there is no xview wizards any more i m using sliders in my xview apps usually with editable numeric field but i seem to have no control over the length of this field in some apps it appears long enough to keep several characters in some it cannot keep even the maximum value set by panel max value as i understand panel value display length which controls number of characters to be displayed in text items doesn t work in the case of slider despite the fact that panel h contains the following bit panel multiline text item panel numeric text item panel slider item and panel text item attributes panel notify level panel attr attr enum panel value display length panel attr attr int which gives a hint that this attribute can be used for sliders but setting this attribute gives nothing and xv get ting this attribute gives warning bad attribute and returns value strange thing is that dec s port of xview gives plenty of space in a text fields but not sun s xview can someone share his experience in managing sliders in xview with me and clear this problem any help is very much appreciated yuri yuri uk ac hw phy
comp.windows.x	bit static color will clients like it i m writing an x server for some video generation equipment the hardware is truecolor in yuv space in x terms it has a bit static color visual i would really like to have the server just present this static visual but i m not sure if this will be acceptable to most x clients the three problems i see are the colormap though huge is static all pixels would be bytes wide because the hardware actually lives in yuv space the translation rgb yuv will introduce some rounding error being more of a server guy than a client guy i ask will these limitations thwart many x clients or will most of the x stuff floating around blithely accept what they re given i could write the server to also present a pseudocolor visual of e g bits but i d rather avoid this if not necessary i know there are no absolutes but i d appreciate hearing people s opinions and suggestions thanks frederick g m roeber cern european center for nuclear research e mail roeber cern ch or roeber caltech edu work r mail cern ppe geneva switzerland home
comp.windows.x	polygon to raster converter required can anybody tell me if they know where i can obtain the source code for a polygon filling algorithm or any other graphics orientated mailing lists that may be able to help me thanks paul paul jaques systems engineer camborne school of mines rosemanowes herniss penryn cornwall e mail pjaques csm ac uk tel stithians fax
comp.windows.x	graphics editor required see subject an opportunity for sales people persons entities i am looking for a commercial pd graphics editor with fairly limited abilities that runs under x and preferably uses motif widgets it must run on hp ux version either with or without the pex extension the sort of things i want are simple drawing resizing and moving of objects such as lines rectangles and text bounding rectangle operations are sufficient for object selection ideally it should also allow the creation and placement of more complex objects such as widgets e g text entry fields or labels but this is not mandatory does anyone have such an animal if you do please mail me with details including price especially run time licensing since it must be included in a product alternatively send glossies to me at logica newman street london w including technical info please for pd stuff i have some effort that could be put into porting thanks for any help nicholas young nicholas young
comp.windows.x	help received from eei eeiihy vax xpert expo lcs mit edu inet mail user in vax and internet help
comp.windows.x	core dump from getcons we are getting a memory fault and a core dump whenever we end a motif session under ultrix running on a dec an examintion of the core file leads us to believe it s from getcons does anyone know what this is all about marc marc wiener marc aip org american institute of physics sunnyside blvd voice woodbury ny fax
comp.windows.x	a question i do not found in faq i created a pixmap or drawable window then used xdrawline function drawed a line as below fingure width p height p p i created the pixmap or drawable window only with size x but i draw line from p x y to p x y my question is dose the xdrawline function can finger out that correct p x and y for me if you calculate x and y x art tan degrees y x tan tan integer how do i prove xdrawline give me the right x y or not please don t ask me why i don t created a x pixmap no i don t wan to thanks in advance raymond h chui nswc n new hampshire ave silver spring md u s a voice ext fax email rchui opal nswc navy mil o o
comp.windows.x	re a question i do not found in faq comp windows x in article apr relay nswc navy mil rchui nswc wo nswc navy mil raymond chui writes please igore my previouse calculation mistaked please see the correct calculation sorry i created a pixmap or drawable window then used xdrawline function drawed a line as below fingure width p height p p i created the pixmap or drawable window only with size x but i draw line from p x y to p x y my question is dose the xdrawline function can finger out that correct p x and y for me if you calculate x and y x art tan degrees y tan integer how do i prove xdrawline give me the right x y or not please don t ask me why i don t created a x pixmap no i don t wan to thanks in advance raymond h chui nswc n new hampshire ave silver spring md u s a voice ext fax email rchui opal nswc navy mil o o raymond h chui nswc n new hampshire ave silver spring md u s a voice ext fax email rchui opal nswc navy mil o o
comp.windows.x	re title for xterm yet again the escape sequences you are speaking about here are non standard and dangerous in fact an ansi compliant sequence parser hangs on them why are there such strange esc sequences instead of compatible dsc o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.windows.x	x interactive performance we recently got an ncd x terminal to evaluate this is running xremote over a serial line i wanted to get some measurement of response time so i wrote a small xlib program which simply creates a window maps it and sends the first expose event to itself the program times the delay from sending the event to receiving it i thought this was the simplest way to test client x server round trip delays it s a similar concept to the ping c program is this a valid test to perform i ve also tried the xbench program available from ftp uu net which bombards the server with graphics operations but i just wanted to get a quantative measure of what is acceptable interactive response time has anyone got any ideas on this subject thanks andrew afielden mlsma att com andrew fielden at t network systems uk tel information systems group sun support email afielden mlsma att com
comp.windows.x	creating a gif file we are looking for a x client which can convert a xwd or a bitmap file into a gif file for use on a macintosh thanks michel crnsu in p fr laurent michel crn gti bp strasbourg cedex france phone
comp.windows.x	re pulldown menu periodically hangs application on openwindows skip koppenhaver skip eco twg com wrote has anyone found a fix for the following problem client software sunos x r server hardware sun ipc server software sunos open windows w patch a motif application will periodically hang when run against the openwindows server xnews the pulldown is displayed but then no button actions have any effect sometimes pressing return will unstick the application but not usually it looks like the pulldown is grabbing the focus and never letting go other windows on the display continue to get updated so the server isn t hanging if i log in from another terminal and kill the motif application then everything gets back to normal the same application when run against other x servers including mit x r xsun decwindows tektronix x terminal has no problems this is obviously a openwindows problem but i need a work around since most of our customers are openwindows users i have seen the same problem using a sparcstation solaris ow in my case it happens far more often than periodically help
comp.windows.x	mail hello networld i m looking for an x mailreader is there a xelm andreas andreas dunker andreas appel hydromech uni hannover de we all live in a yellow subroutine andreas veeble han de the beatles
comp.windows.x	re looking for an r xserver for hp update your to hp ux you get an r server and libraries greg hughes gmh fc hp com
comp.windows.x	re creating a gif file in article aa crnsu in p fr michel crnsu in p fr writes path wldelft nl sun nl mcsun uunet gatech enterpoop mit edu internet news mail gateway from michel crnsu in p fr newsgroups comp windows x subject creating a gif file date apr organization the internet lines sender news athena mit edu message id aa crnsu in p fr nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu to xpert expo lcs mit edu we are looking for a x client which can convert a xwd or a bitmap file into a gif file for use on a macintosh thanks michel crnsu in p fr laurent michel crn gti bp strasbourg cedex france phone just look at the pbmplus package it does everything you could ever ask for in converting pbm to almost any format gif tga pcx etc arno duijndam
comp.windows.x	re is it just me or is this newsgroup dead in article e d tgv com mahan tgv com patrick l mahan writes i ve gotten very few posts on this group in the last couple days i recently added it to my feed list is it just me or is this group near death seen from the mailing list side i m getting about the right amount of traffic and seen from my point of view i get far too much articles to keep up with them i am lucky if i can scan through the subjects from time to time dipl inform rainer klute i r b immer richtig beraten univ dortmund irb postfach tel d w dortmund fax new address after june th univ dortmund d dortmund
comp.windows.x	wanted x security posting a few days ago there was a posting in this group by andrea winkler titled x and security x technical conference i was one of the instructors of that tutorial unfortunately my system purged the message before i had a chance to see it and i don t have andrea s email address if someone has andrea s address and or the posting i would really appreciate it if you d forward it to me thanks jeremy jeremy epstein internet epstein trwacs fp trw com trusted x research group voice trw systems division fairfax virginia jeremy epstein internet epstein trwacs fp trw com trusted x research group voice trw systems division fairfax virginia
comp.windows.x	hp a graphics terminal emulators i would be grateful to anyone who knows about an x windows application that would emulate hp a graphics in a manner similar to the way tek graphics windows are implemented in xterm thanks for you help oleg roytburd oleg sdd comsat com
comp.windows.x	andrew was re x toolkits excerpts from netnews comp windows x apr x toolkits paul prescod undergrad m i get the impression andrew is from the fsf but i don t know what it looks like either the andrew user interface system is supported maintained enhanced and distributed by the andrew consortium carnegie mellon the distribution terms are those of the x consortium not the gnu public license thus anyone can commercially exploit the andrew code without restriction to encourage membership however we defer universal release of the latest versions until consortium members have had an opportunity to explore the new capabilities to se what auis looks like you can try a remote demo you need an x server r is best on a machine linked to the internet give the command finger help atk itc cmu edu for instructions note the demo version does not use the motif look and feel scrollbar but one is available you can use it on the demo by changing an option in the preferences file and starting a new editor the andrew toolkit component of auis is ideal if you want to build applications using compound documents andrew s major feature is its architecture for recursive embedding of objects equation in table in figure in text for example this architecture extends to areas not usually found in toolkits including file stream formats cut paste and printing andrew also provides some of the most commonly requested applications word processor spreadsheet drawing editor and font editor the latter two are in version which will be generally released on the xr tape in december fred hansen director andrew consortium
comp.windows.x	x graphics accelerators how can i obtain public information documentation and sources about xservers implemented with graphics processors i am specially interested in xservers developed for the tms texas instruments graphic processor please send answer to arana labein es
comp.windows.x	xpm g is available on export lcs mit edu directory contrib and avahi inria fr directory pub xpm xpm f to g patch z xpm g tar z copyright groupe bull see license conditions in file copyright history of user visible changes g enhancements much faster close colors piping from to compressed files now handles gnu s gzip z format added xpmcolorkey attribute ability to specify which visual s colors to use ie now it s possible to read in a pixmap in a color visual but use the colors specified for monochrome added mono grey grey and color options to sxpm to demonstrate the xpmcolorkey attribute jason patterson jasonp fitmail qut edu au bugs corrected fixed bug where redefining none as a pixel stopped mask generation minor svr defines for string h fixed annoying closecolor bug related to read write color cells fixed minor bug in color value pixel overloading manual updated to include new red green blue closeness attributes jason patterson jasonp fitmail qut edu au the top imakefile was missing the depend target sxpm imakefile fixed so that l lib is set before the standard library location vivek khera khera cs duke edu lib xpmp h now defines bcopy as memcpy for vms required by recent versions of vms j daniel smith dsmith ann arbor applicon slb com the lib imakefile didn t work with x r arnaud le hors lehors sophia inria fr bull research france koala project
comp.windows.x	re xt intrinsics slow popups in article minster york ac uk cjhs minster york ac uk writes bryan boreham bryan alex com wrote in article minster york ac uk cjhs minster york ac uk writes the application creates window with a button quit and press me the button press me pops up a dialog box the strange feature of this program is that it always pops up the dialog box much faster the first time if i try to pop it up a nd time rd th time it is much slower the shell is waiting for the window manager to respond to its positioning request the window manager is not responding because it thinks the window is already in the right place exactly why the two components get into this sulk is unclear to me all information greatly received the only time i ve seen similar behaviour is when an x application forked a child without setting close on exec on the x display connection file descriptor the shell waited for a configurenotify event that never arrived because it got picked up by the child sometimes the shell correctly got the configurenotify if the timing was right gary phillips email gary ioc co uk phone phones cix compulink co uk fax
comp.windows.x	re imake help needed in article apr def bae co uk paul def bae co uk paul byrne writes can someone please give me some pointers to setting up imake in a sun openwindows enviornment i ve checked through all the documentation but can not find any clues sun s openwindows imake is broken i suggest installing imake pure mit s x r imake you can get it from ftp germany eu net in file pub x misc imake imake pure tar z byte dipl inform rainer klute i r b immer richtig beraten univ dortmund irb postfach tel d w dortmund fax new address after june th univ dortmund d dortmund
comp.windows.x	x server for nt does anybody have an x server for nt that they re willing to share files or experiences bill steer westinghouse
comp.windows.x	sun x r undeletable console messages we have an old sun here which gets occasional use when x r is started on it any console messages during startup are undeletable after x is fully started we run an xterm as the console the problem is that any messages that arrive before this starts go to the plain console refresh window fails to remove them the messages are a real pain since they sit in the middle of the screen obscuring anything else below them at boot time the lists two framebuffers dev cgfour and dev bwtwo we re running x in color and i suspect that maybe the offending messages are on the b w framebuffer and thereby not getting deleted my question is has anyone else seen this and is there an easy way to get rid of these messages please reply by e mail to hughm inmos co uk hugh mcintyre inmos ltd bristol uk btw sunos x r mwm ps i know i can redirect output of the relevant commands to dev null i m looking for a more general solution
comp.windows.x	re bit static color will clients like it in article apr vxcrna cern ch roeber vxcrna cern ch frederick roeber writes i m writing an x server for some video generation equipment the hardware is truecolor in yuv space in x terms it has a bit static color visual i would really like to have the server just present this static visual but i m not sure if this will be acceptable to most x clients the three problems i see are the colormap though huge is static all pixels would be bytes wide because the hardware actually lives in yuv space the translation rgb yuv will introduce some rounding error being more of a server guy than a client guy i ask will these limitations thwart many x clients or will most of the x stuff floating around blithely accept what they re given i could write the server to also present a pseudocolor visual of e g bits but i d rather avoid this if not necessary even bit truecolor machines are in most cases running an emulated bit pseudocolor visual only to get standard x clients motif apps and thelike to run i strongly suppose you to emulate at least bit truecolor should be no problem only some translation rounding should not make big misfits bit pseudocolor more of a problem you have to emulate a colormap pixel indices conversion stuff furthermore you should run your default screen on this visual o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.windows.x	plane xterminal do i want one i ve been offerred an old bits pixel greyscale xterminal aside from the real people have already upgraded to risc architecture r servers do i want this xterminal i m concerned about the planes i ve only ever heard of mono and colour planes will i have any concerns with this plane unit specifically related to planes vs or thanks c ps all r apps run on r r servers right
comp.windows.x	unix interest group where is it i know that this is not the correct place to post this but i have exhausted all other logical options i used to be on the info unix newsgroup mailer the mailers mysteriously quite coming around the end of last year all e mails requesting that i be placed back on the list have been ignored i have been unable to locate the administrator of this list if anyone knows of the internet address that i can send a the request to get back on this list can you please send it to me if you don t know of this specific newsgroup mailer i would appreciate the address of any unix related newsgroup thanks cutoff steve slosser ntsc rd navy mil ps sorry for the non x related question
comp.windows.x	re bit static color will clients like it even bit truecolor machines are in most cases running an emulated bit pseudocolor visual only to get standard x clients motif apps and thelike to run i strongly suppose you to emulate at least bit truecolor should be no problem only some translation rounding should not make big misfits depends on the nature of the rounding x allows the user to do bit arithmetic on pixel values i e xor foreground and backgroun pixel values together to calculate a foreground color that when used with a function of gxxor fill change foreground to background and vice versa if your rounding does not preserve these types of calculations then clients that use them will break ken kenneth whaley kubota pacific computer inc email whaley kpc com walsh avenue santa clara ca
comp.windows.x	re moolit and olit in article stevedavc y jz d netcom com stevedav netcom com steve davidson writes does anyone know the difference between moolit and olit does sun support moolit is moolit available on sparcstations moolit motif open look intrinsic toolkit allows developers to build applications that can switch between motif and open look at run time while olit only gives you open look internet chunhong vnet ibm com
comp.windows.x	archie client xgetftp needs an archie client program does anybody know where i can get it thanks in advance kai
comp.windows.x	re bit static color will clients like it in article apr vxcrna cern ch roeber vxcrna cern ch frederick roeber writes i m writing an x server for some video generation equipment the hardware is truecolor in yuv space in x terms it has a bit static color visual i would really like to have the server just present this static visual but i m not sure if this will be acceptable to most x clients the three problems i see are the colormap though huge is static all pixels would be bytes wide because the hardware actually lives in yuv space the translation rgb yuv will introduce some rounding error we tried to ship an x server once that only supported a bit truecolor visual the main problems we encountered were clients written with logic like the following if defaultdepth assume default depth is bit these clients need an bit deep visual in the root window to run correctly other clients didn t even bother to do that much and just outright assumed they had a dynamic visual class with a dynamic colormap xstorecolors doesn t work on cmaps associated with static or truecolor visual classes but many clients don t bother to check they just start throwing xstorecolor calls at you though both are clearly client error this is the case with so many clients that it s easier for you to expose bit pseudocolor as a default root window visual than it ever would be for all these client writers to change their clients to do the right thing paul pmartz dsd es com evans sutherland
comp.windows.x	using message passing with xtaddinput in the past i have used named pipes to communicate between processes using the xtaddinput function to set up the event handling in motif does anybody know of a way to do this with message passing ipc i tried it here and no luck so far thanks
comp.windows.x	red color on button on enter window this may be an faq but i dont know where to get the faq list my openlook application has a few buttons the first button turns red gets highlighted as soon as the sprite mouse is moved into the application window how do i suppress this vidyaranya
comp.windows.x	re asynchronous x windows no it isn t it is the x window system or x or x or any of a number of other designations accepted by the x consortium in fact doing man x on pretty much any x machine will tell you the x consortium requests that the following names be used when referring to this software x x window system x version x window system version x there is no such thing as x windows or x window despite the repeated misuse of the forms by the trade rags this probably tells you something about how much to trust the trade rags if they can t even get the name of the window system right why should one trust anything else they have to say i used to think this way and not just about x for example incorrect english constructs such as its raining or it s window id annoy me however there comes a time when popular usage starts to dictate the way things really are in the world indeed the fact that x won out over news was really down to popular opinion i know we all think it s technically superior as well on a related topic who is to say that color is more or less correct than colour being irish and hence using english english as opposed to american english i always use the latter except of course for api terms such as xalloccolor and colormap in a world that uses the term windows to refer to microsoft windows perhaps the time has come to accept x windows as a valid term for x i think that this is a more concise and uncluttered term than say the x window system and let s face it almost everyone uses it ultimately we all need product sales to more than just x literate people in this respect product recognition is important and a short snappy descriptive title x is positively obscure will help when dealing with the average punter it s sad i thought i was a software engineer indeed it is unfortunate that x did not become popularly known as windows and let ms worry about whether it should be called microsoft windows or the microsoft window system or how about just plain microsoft to summarise or should that be summarize the point of this message i think there are far more pressing issues facing the x community than worrying about subtle distinctions in the naming of the window system or should that be windowing system whatever gets recognised is fine by me i agree that one should be careful in interpreting what trade papers say however i would be reluctant to come to this conclusion purely on the basis of how they name the x window system gerard o driscoll gerard odriscoll dps co uk du pont pixel systems ltd
comp.windows.x	xm and ow server we have a program written with x r and motif it runs fine on the sun x r server and macx when that program is run under the sparc and the ow server the program crashed itself along with the server it crashed before the first window had showed up i got the following error from x xio fatal io error broken pipe on x server perot after requests known processed with events remaining the connection was probably broken by a server shutdown or killclient i have run the program with xmon and below is the last twenty lines or so from xmon before both the program and server crashed request getproperty delete false window win property atm type atm long offset reply getproperty format type none bytes after request getinputfocus reply getinputfocus revert to parent focus win d request changeproperty mode replace window win property atm type atm format data request getinputfocus please email to me if you have any idea of the above problem thanks in advance mw chiu mwchiu tigr org
comp.windows.x	re asynchronous x windows in zztop dps co uk gerard dps co uk gerard o driscoll writes no it isn t it is the x window system or x or x or any of a number of other designations accepted by the x consortium there is no such thing as x windows or x window despite the repeated misuse of the forms by the trade rags i used to think this way and not just about x for example incorrect english constructs such as its raining or it s window id annoy me however there comes a time when popular usage starts to dictate the way things really are in the world well yes and no i don t particularly want this discussion to spark a lengthy debate but i do think it s worth pointing out that popular usage is not always sufficient excuse in this case for example i think an appropriate parallel may be found in the pronunciation of proper names if people commonly misspelled or mispronounced your name would you feel compelled to change it probably not the same is true of x the x window system x x and related monickers are proper names in the same sense that any product name is a proper name in fact some of them are trademarked names the fact that many people get them wrong is largely beside the point as for the trade publications that promulgate things like x window or x windows or any of the other nonsensical variants one often sees consider the fact that these publications are supposedly written by journalists would you trust the facts of a journalist who couldn t be bothered to get the name of his her source right would you trust a product review by someone who got the name of the product wrong popular usage is as it may be but i for one am all for holding people who claim to be journalists to a higher standard of correctness indeed the fact that x won out over news was really down to popular opinion i know we all think it s technically superior as well x technically superior to news well in some alternate universe perhaps
comp.windows.x	unisys emulation has anyone seen source to an xterm package ready to perform unisys terminal emulation got a clunker and got a connect return mikell cactus org mikell cactus org calame linebarger graham pena attys at law
comp.windows.x	cfp andrew technical conference reminder plan now for the andrew conference date the dates are as noted below we have not changed them submission extension we are still accepting papers tutorial topic converting andrew source code to c this tutorial will discuss the steps necessary to convert a site from c extended with classc to c conversion of the source code requires only a couple of steps run the converter fill in missing type information describing this will not take long the remainder of the day will be spent learning how to write objects in c and practicing andrew technical conference and consortium annual meeting june carnegie mellon university pittsburgh pa the conference will be held on the last thursday and friday in june a tutorial will be on thursday the th and the conference proper on the th with the annual meeting at the dinner on the evening between the two days all conference attendees are welcome at the annual meeting though only consortium members will be able to vote this year s theme is application construction by non programmers much of the effort on x toolkits has been aimed at programmer construction of applications there have however been some excellent uims systems built on top of x papers addressing the theme will consider questions such as what is needed for application construction by non programmers can we avoid programming altogether or is a simple language needed is it sufficient to create applications or must users be able to create new widgets should widgets and applications be able to print themselves your participation in the conference is welcome papers are appropriate on the theme or any aspect of the andrew user interface system including applications experience with users new objects reviews of and proposals for revision of internal andrew protocols we expect to have an rs with video projector available if you would like to do a demonstration paper proposals should be submitted by may acceptance will be june with final papers due by june send papers via electronic mail to wjh andrew cmu edu fred hansen director andrew consortium
comp.windows.x	xarchie available on export please accept the following announcement for comp windows x announce gf a completely revamped version of the x browser interface to archie xarchie is now available as export lcs mit edu contrib xarchie tar z for those not familar with archie or xarchie i include part of the manpage intro xarchie is an x browser interface to the archie internet information system using the prospero virtual filesystem protocol archie provides information about files available for ftp anywhere on the internet xarchie displays this information using an easy to use point and click interface xarchie allows you to further explore ftp sites by examining directories returned as query matches and allows you to retrieve files located this way xarchie has been extensively tested on r r and a variety of other flavors of x and on a wide range of machines a summary of the new features from the readme follows major improvements include multiple selections allowed in browser for use with other new features fwf multilist widget ability to expand directories in browser real fully integrated ftp implementation ability to save and reload query results as well as print them ability to resort results and sort results by user definable pseudo weights online help browser color resources done so that they don t break mono displays fwf fileselector widget for local file operations makefile dst s supplied for the imake impaired george george ferguson arpa ferguson cs rochester edu dept of computer science uucp rutgers rochester ferguson university of rochester vox rochester ny fax
comp.windows.x	re regression testing and x megan grenenger megan cs uq oz au wrote i d appreciate any feedback on capture playback tools for use with x clients any comparisons comments on regression testing tools would be great particularly xtm xrunner autotester and sri s capbak smarts and exdiff how about starting where i could find any of these for the commercial ones at least a phone number would be appreciated bill poitras molecular simulations inc tel bill msi com burlington ma fax ftp mail mail ftpmail decwrl dec com offers ftp via email subject cr help cr quit
comp.windows.x	re how to get bit color with xview frames amathur ces cwru edu alok mathur writes i would like to know how i can set the depth of the frame to be bits i tried using the following xlib code am i using a completely wrong approach here is it possible to set the depth yes and colormap for a window created by xview what am i doing wrong look up xv depth also you might want to try using xview colormap segments instead of xlib for your colormap stuff they will probably be easier for you to use and since you are using a truecolor visual you won t be losing anything compared to straight xlib jonathan hue island com
comp.windows.x	announcing the motif mailing list i am glad and proud to announce the new mailing list for the pd motif c bindings i got over replies in about one week of people interested in such a list and the software has now been properly installed so the list is now up and running for those interested in joining please send e mail to that extend to motif request cv ruu nl or rvloon cv ruu nl the blurb everyone who joins gets follows as well as the original announcement for where motif can be obtained enjoy welcome to the motif mailing list the motif mailing list is a mailing list dedicated to motif the pd c wrapper library for motif where people can ask questions about motif swap stories and give new ideas about new directions and improvements for the bindings all requests of an administrative nature like subscription removal etc should be directed to motif request cv ruu nl all e mail sent to motif cv ruu nl will be sent to the entire list so please make sure when using vacation type programs that will reply to messages automatically that the address for the mailing list is excluded from auto replies enjoy ronald van loon in theory there is no difference rvloon cv ruu nl between theory and practice dcv group utrecht the netherlands in practice however there is hello motif world over the past half year there have been a lot of relatively minor changes to the motif bindings imake support has been improved a few defaults have been changed and a lot of other small things have been added this is basically a release which drops the gamma status next release will incorporate some improvements by stefan schwarz and possibly will support x r and motif x note to all of those who keep copies of the archive please retrieve this distribution during off peak hours and delete all previous copies here is the original announcement history the university of lowell supported by a grant of the open software foundation has developed a wrapper library that encapsulates motif widgets in c classes all resources of these widgets can now be set through member functions while objects can be used in callback functions the library was made available for free or nominal cost for anonymous ftp at however the library contained a large number of bugs and oversights and only worked under x r due to lack of subsequent fundings the bindings are no longer actively supported by the university of lowell i ronald van loon at a certain point last year have taken the lowell bindings fixing the bugs i came across adding missing memberfunctions and enhancing functionality and made the bug fixed library available for the general public for anonymous ftp made possible by rick murphy at dec new release i am now pleased to announce a new and updated release of the motif bindings this release offers full motif and x r support support for xbae widgetset two additional widgets written by myself that can be used to indicate progress in an application imake support nb this release relies heavily on the existence of imake and its config files on your site i have tried to provide the bindings with a standard makefile tweakable for those unfortunates without imake i have not severely tested the standard makefile though contact me if you have problems the reason for calling this a gamma release lies in the fact that i do not have a multitude of platforms to test the imake files on lots of testfiles even somewhat useful programs an article i wrote on the usage of motif x and c previously posted on usenet where to get the new motif bindings ftp anonymous ftp at decuac dec com directory pub x note please be patient as the network link is quite slow please do not ftp large files during working hours also note that there is also a motif jan tar z file at this site this is an old version of the bindings e mail those who don t have ftp can send me e mail and i will send the bindings by e mail request those who use the bindings and find bugs or see room for improvement please contact me and i will try to incorporate them in a future release in case of bugs a bug fix of course more information contact me at rvloon cv ruu nl if you are desperate then you can call me at that is utrecht the netherlands those within the netherlands call enjoy ronald van loon in theory there is no difference rvloon cv ruu nl between theory and practice dcv group utrecht the netherlands in practice however there is
comp.windows.x	manual unsubscribe request i am on the list under two addresses i think tom capmgtsci com and zuma tom netcomsv netcom com please delete the second one zuma tom netcomsv netcom com thanks sorry for the screw up tom tulinsky capital management sciences west los angeles tom capmgtsci com
comp.windows.x	looking for updated xview textedit source w d n d support the xview version source distribution included in the contrib section of x r included the source to the textedit program i d like to take the sources and modify them to add support for a tooltalk like message server and maybe for tooltalk while i m at it since the sun supplied textedit binary doesn t seem to speak tooltalk however the sources in the r contrib area seem to be for an older version of textedit than the version shipped with openwindows for example the own textedit includes drag and drop support and a dropsite in the main control area while the source in contrib xview knows nothing about drag and drop the textedit c included in the xview sources says it s version dated while doing a what textedit on the own binary says textedit c copyr sun micro dragdrop c copyr sun micro tooltalk c copyr sun micro ds relname c copyr sun micro so does anyone know if the sources to textedit are available i d really like to work from the latest source if possible please reply by email and i ll post a summary if there s enough interest matt landau waiting for a flash of enlightenment matt centerline com in all this blood and thunder
comp.windows.x	input focus to a window other than where the pointer is i have noticed in framemaker x on both the sgi and sun platforms that certain dialogs such as column layout for example respond to keyboard traversal even though the pointer is not in the dialog window and even though the window manager keyboard focus policy is pointer how is this done i would like to emulate this behavior in my application it seems a reasonable behavior since when a dialog is popped up from a keyboard action the dialog is not guaranteed to be under the pointer and the user should not have to reach for the mouse just to move the focus alternatively i m open to any suggestions as to what is the right way to insure that popups get the focus when they appear particularly when they are invoked from the keyboard and one s keyboard focus policy is pointer allen barnett whose wife graciously allowed to use her account
comp.windows.x	which x events are generated on application exit i m writing an application running under x using motif and i need to do some stuff when the application quits now when i shut down my x windows session it doesn t seem to send a sigterm or whatever signal to my application i m trapping various signals like that therefore i thought i could use an x signal to check for my top level window being destroyed however i seem to get destroynotify events whenever i move windows is there any way for me to check that the window is actually being destroyed some field to check or some combination of events replies by e mail please and i will summarise thanks for any help ian ian compsci liverpool ac uk
comp.windows.x	xavier av extension to interviews dear folks it s a pleasure to be able to announce the release of a new freeware program xavier an audio and video extension to interviews xavier extension av class for interviews is a c class library that adds multimedia capability to interviews it allows composite multimedia objects to be built from media objects specifically it adds audio and video objects to the classes available in interviews and it does so without changing the source code for the original classes though several configuration files for interviews need to be changed via a patch file currently the xavier audio classes are only supported on sun workstations with an audio interface such as the sparcstation xavier has been tested in the following environments sun machine sparcserver sparcstation ipc os sun os or later c sun c ver nec ews machine ews os ews ux v rel wsos release release c c release it can be obtained via anonymous ftp from interviews stanford edu in pub contrib xavier large demo tar and xavier tar we are preparing a mailing list for information regarding xavier if you are interested please contact xavier tsl cl nec co jp i will add your e mail address to our list reference o rei hamakawa hizekazu sakagami jun rekimoto audio and video extension to graphical interface toolkits the third international workshop on network and operating system support for digital audio and video san diego rei hamakawa e mail rei tsl cl nec co jp o o c c systems research laboratories o nec corporation o miyazaki chome tel o miyamae ku kawasaki fax o kanagawa japan
comp.windows.x	re pulldown menu periodically hangs application on openwindows in article rgt innonv ssdc ssdc sterling com rlee ssdc ssdc sterling com richard lee writes a motif application will periodically hang when run against the openwindows server xnews i have seen the same problem using a sparcstation solaris ow in my case it happens far more often than periodically i don t know if there s a corresponding patch for solaris but this sounds like the following bug which is supposedly fixed in the solaris x olwm jumbo patch window system can hang in an errant pointer grab actually i suspect that the ow problem may be different since the readme file says that this patch is just a sunos x version of the ow olwm but maybe that line came from an earlier version of the patch and they forgot to take it out in the version barry margolin system manager thinking machines corp barmar think com uunet harvard think barmar
comp.windows.x	re xsun not running on sparcclassic herzog dogwalk eng sun com brian herzog sunsoft product engineering writes i m just guessing here but i d guess that x r expects the cg to have x resolution and the version of the cg in the sparcclassic is x i ve used x r with classics set for both x and x you can choose which resolution you want in the prom monitor before booting one person had trouble with x r that was fixed by using the multi screen version here s how our version was built you can just copy usr local x r bin xsun from farside rutgers edu if you just want to see whether this version will work r distribution installed from pub r mit and contrib on export lcs mit edu patches installed from pub r fixes on export r xsun multi screen patches installed from contrib r xsun multi screen on export mar solaris patches installed release update from contrib r sunos patch on export mar compilation is with gcc configuration is standard except that the root is usr local x r per rutgers conventions
comp.windows.x	re a question i do not found in faq in article apr relay nswc navy mil rchui opal nswc navy mil writes i created a pixmap or drawable window then used xdrawline function to draw a clipped line i created the pixmap or drawable window only with size x but i draw line from p x y to p x y my question is dose the xdrawline function can finger out that correct p x and y for me if you calculate x and y if you re asking does the x server perform clipping correctly when drawing lines the answer is yes
comp.windows.x	comp windows x i would like to keep track of x development on a ux ultrix openwindows currently i cannot use the newsgroup comp windows x and would like to use the email based info thanks folkert boonstra cap gemini innovation dutch research centre burg elsenlaan phone p o box fax ga rijswijk nl e mail boonstra capints uucp
comp.windows.x	problem with dni and ow can anybody help me i am having a problem displaying images greater than bytes on a sparc ipc running openwindows and dni my program runs on a vax and displays images on the ipc with no problems if i use openwindows the program uses the following lines to display the image it is the xputimage routine that crashes ximage ximage ximage xcreateimage mydisplay defaultvisual mydisplay myscreen ddepth zpixmap image xwid ywid xputimage mydisplay mywindow mygc ximage xpos ypos xwid ywid the error i get is xio fatal io error on x server galaxy after requests known processed with events remaining xlib f ioerror xlib io error system f linkdiscon network partner disconnected logical link trace f traceback symbolic stack dump follows module name routine name line rel pc abs pc b b bbe bbe d d a a myxsubs my imtoiks af test main e ee i have a simple test program if anyone would like to test it thanks paul paul jaques systems engineer camborne school of mines rosemanowes herniss penryn cornwall e mail pjaques csm ac uk tel stithians fax
comp.windows.x	standard colormaps i m working on an x r application and have concerns regarding standard colormaps the x r documentation says usually a window manager creates these colormaps i wonder what window manager the writer had in mind neither twm or mwm seem to create standard colormaps of course one can use xstdcmap to create standard colormaps however xstdcmap doesn t seem to try very hard to avoid conflicts with the default colormap when i use standard colormaps created by xstdcmap the rest of my display goes black so it seems as if use of standard colormaps causes the very problem standard colormaps are intended to avoid perhaps if every application used standard colormaps things would be wonderful but not many applications seem to use standard colormaps finally the operation of the functions xmugetcolormapallocation xmustandardcolormap and xmucreatecolormap seem inconsistent with the section of the x r xlib documentation according to the section of the x r xlib documentation p for grayscale colormaps only the colormap red max red mult and base pixel members are defined the other members are ignored to compute a grayscale pixel value use the following expression gray red mult base pixel xffffffff xmugetcolormapallocation defined in mit lib xmu cmapalloc c is used by xmulookupstandardcolormap defined in mit lib xmu lookupcmap c to select red max green max and blue max values for the call to xmustandardcolormap when the rgb gray map property is specified xmugetcolormapallocation sets red max to of the total number of cells in the gray scale sets green max to of the total number and sets blue max ot of the total number referring to section one would expect xmugetcolormapallocation to set red max to the total number of cells in the gray scale when the rgb gray map property is specified xmustandardcolormap defined in mit lib xmu stdcmap c sets red mult green mult and blue mult all equal to referring to section one would expect green mult and blue mult to be ignored when red mult green mult and blue mult all equal xmucreatecolormap defined in mit lib xmu crcmap c constructs a gray map the sum of red max green max and blue max gives the maximum gray value referring to section on would expect red max to give the maximum gray value
comp.windows.x	xlib timeouts i am in the process of modifying an x application that uses xlib i d like to include a timer driven facility for network polling but cannot see how to do it using xlib i know it can be done with xaw using xtappaddtimeout and xttimercallbackproc how do i do the same using xlib thanks for any help please email dave wilson computing centre rhodes university grahamstown south africa
comp.windows.x	how to unsubscribe from mailing list i try to unsubscribe from this group by sending an email but that doesn t work could some one tell me the listserv address and command for me to unsubcribe i am leaving this friday th april and the mail box will overflow soon after that thanks philip nguyen research engineer flexible manufacturing research and development centre fmr d mcmaster university main st west hamilton on l s l voice ext or fax e mail phil flex eng mcmaster ca
comp.windows.x	how can get a pixel value from a drawable how can get a pixel value from a drawable without having to copy it to the client as an ximage and use xgetpixel i want to select pixels from an animating window on the server without having to copy the whole lot back to my client x r any pointers appreciated gordon gordon c watson meteorology department edinburgh university scotland janet g c watson uk ac ed internet gcw met ed ac uk
comp.windows.x	how to resolve different font formats hi all i tried to run softpc a pc emulation software program installed on a silicon graphics workstation from a human design system hds x terminal and everything went fine except the fonts could not be converted from one type of format to the other hds uses different font format from sgi worksation so i have the following questions how do you resolve different font formats from different machines is there a program to convert one type of font format to another if you have similar problems experiences and have found a solution please let me know your help will be greatly appreciated thank you in advance for your help and information tom nguen edwind lims lerc nasa gov
comp.windows.x	re archie client get xarchie instead o o o brain inside o o o o andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de o o o
comp.windows.x	re standard colormaps in article rjdk inncnh senator bedfellow mit edu jgealow mtl mit edu jeffrey c gealow writes i m working on an x r application and have concerns regarding standard colormaps the x r documentation says usually a window manager creates these colormaps i wonder what window manager the writer had in mind neither twm or mwm seem to create standard colormaps standard colormaps were spec d with the intention that window managers would make them available this doesn t mean that every window manager author in the world immediately dropped everything they were doing and implemented this at top priority the esge server we ship makes the xa rgb best map available at startup it doesn t wait for window managers to do it of course one can use xstdcmap to create standard colormaps however xstdcmap doesn t seem to try very hard to avoid conflicts with the default colormap when i use standard colormaps created by xstdcmap the rest of my display goes black so it seems as if use of standard colormaps causes the very problem standard colormaps are intended to avoid perhaps if every application used standard colormaps things would be wonderful but not many applications seem to use standard colormaps does your hardware have only one clut since standard colormaps typically devour all entries there is no way it can avoid displacing the entire default colormap if your hardware has only one clut i don t believe standard colormaps are intended to aboid possible colormap flashing between clients using the default coilormap rather colormap flashing will be avoided between two clients that use the same standard colormap an example would be two clients that need a full color range would both use xa rgb best map or whatever it s called under x r if you are trying to avoid colormap flashing with the default colormap your best bet is to try to load all the colors you use into that colormap if you can t do that then you ll get flashing on a one hw clut framebuffer now if your window manager used the same standard colormap as your client this flashing could also be avoided perhaps some window managers have command line options for selecting standard colormaps paul pmartz dsd es com evans sutherland
comp.windows.x	imake support for xmosaic imake support for xmosaic although xmosaic is a great program in general it unfortunately comes without imake support so i created one until marc andreessen finds the time to incorporate it in an official xmosaic release you can easily do it yourself use anonymous ftp to get ftp germany eu net pub x misc xmosaic imake tar z the file s size is byte you will need gzip to unpack it have fun dipl inform rainer klute i r b immer richtig beraten univ dortmund irb postfach tel d w dortmund fax new address after june th univ dortmund d dortmund
comp.windows.x	posix message catalogs can someone tell me in words or less how to compile posix message catalogs so that i can use them with catgets catopen etc i know what the format for the catalogs is but don t know how to compile them please reply to chas blackwhite com thanks in advance chas black white software inc leaders in systems software solutions s bascom ave suite contact black white for information on campbell ca x windows osf motif software support osf motif ms windows gui builders add on widgets editors and help systems info blackwhite com c and ada motif bindings
comp.windows.x	registration andrew tutorial technical conference andrew tutorial and technical conference when thursday and friday june and deadline for registration june where carnegie mellon university in pittsburgh pennsylvania sponsor andrew consortium of cmu s school of computer science schedule the tutorial will be on thursday followed by dinner and the annual meeting the conference proper will be on friday all conference attendees are welcome at the annual meeting wednesday june check in after pm informal reception pm thursday june tutorial a m pm conference dinner pm annual meeting pm friday june technical conference am pm cost tutorial fee includes breaks lunch and tutorial materials conference fee includes conference dinner breaks and proceedings rooms student housing night housing is tight around the campus area so please register soon if you prefer to stay in off campus housing please contact us for suggestions mary anne cowden will be handling registration you can contact her by email mc b andrew cmu edu or by phone registration form please complete the attached form and return it to mary anne cowden andrew consortium technical conference carnegie mellon university smith hall forbes avenue pittsburgh pa cut along here name address organization email phone tutorial conference housing night total enclosed please make checks payable to carnegie mellon university
comp.windows.x	keyboard mapping and window placement questions these are two common subjects so i hope someone has had to deal with these specific questions if my application depends on modifiers what is the best lookup method my choices are to call xgetmodifiermapping for each key press with a modifier or make the call once at the init of the app and store the modifiers in a lookup table i would like to do it the second way but i can t seem to get the notify when the user uses xmodmap to remap the modifiers i know that when an app calls xsetmodifiermapping a mappingnotify event is generated non maskable which i can pick up and modify my internal table but i don t seem to get any notify events when the user uses xmodmap if i use xt all o reilly has to say is is automatically handled by xt if i use xlib ala xnextevent i get nothing this all stems from problems with users of the sun keyboard and the numlock plus various alt meta etc modifier requirements i would like to place a popup so that it will be to the immediate right of my main window i want it at the same y coord and their right left sides touching what i need to ask for is the x y coord of the window manager s border for the main window this should ring a bell with anyone who has called xtmovewidget immediately checking the x y after the move and seeing that it is right and in their next callback asking for the x y and seeing that it is now offset by the wm border any help would be most appreciated darcy darcy mccallum mentorg com
comp.windows.x	save under with x r i have the following problem on x r servers when a window of my is obscured by a pop up window which has the save under attribute set the subwindows of my window are not restored normally the subwindows are redrawn when the parent window gets an expose event but because the save under attribute is used for the pop up window that obscured my window no expose event is sent when exposuremask is set for the child windows those windows are correctly updated when the popup window disappears however then the application gets too many expose events and you see extra redraws everything works fine with x r is this something that is changed between x r and x r obvious is it something i do wrong is there something that the popup window should do which is also mine is this a bug in x release greetings hans bos domain hans xelion nl xelion bv uucp sun nl xelion hans postbus phone
comp.windows.x	overriding default wm behaviour i posted this about tow weeks ago but never saw it make it then again i ve had some problems with the mail system apologies if this appears for the second time usually when i start up an application i first get the window outline on my display i then have to click on the mouse button to actually place the window on the screen yet when i specify the geometry option the window appears right away the properties specified by the geometry argument the question now is how can i override the intermediary step of the user having to specify window position with a mouseclick i ve tried explicitly setting window size and position but that did alter the normal program behaviour thanks for any hints robert ps i m working in plain x using tvtwm robert gasch der erste mai ist der tag an dem die stadt ins oracle engineering freihe tritt und den staatlichen monopolanspruch de meern nl auf gewalt in frage stellt rgasch nl oracle com einstuerzende neubauten headers from uupsi expo lcs mit edu xpert mailer thu apr remote from aolsys received from uupsi by aolsys aol com id aa thu apr edt received from srmftp psi com by uu psi com b psi psinet via smtp id aa for thu apr received from expo lcs mit edu by srmftp psi com psi psinet id aa thu apr edt received by expo lcs mit edu thu apr received from enterpoop mit edu by expo lcs mit edu thu apr received by enterpoop mit edu id aa thu apr received from usenet by enterpoop with netnewsfor xpert expo lcs mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu contact usenet enterpoop if you have questions to xpert expo lcs mit edu date apr gmt from rgasch nl oracle com robert gasch message id nlsun oracle nl organization oracle europe subject overriding default behaviour
comp.windows.x	re x toolkits excerpts from misc apr re x toolkits sivesh pradhaan rebels b i do not have finger so is there any other way of accessing this service like mail server or telnet or ftp you can use telnet xhost atk itc cmu edu telnet atk itc cmu edu run demo
comp.windows.x	realtime x tensions hi iam looking for information on any work that deals with real time support in x windows would be happy if you could provide any pointers or information thanks lakshman lakshman ms uky edu
comp.windows.x	wierd xdm behavior dear sun and windows people i am running sun workstations with sunos and vanilla x r i have a bunch of xterminals as well today i had my xdm fail at about it was impossible to login to a host from an xterminal the message was the xdm too many retransmissions in my xdm errors file i had the following entries error pid server for display terminated unexpectedly error pid warning keyboard on display could not be secured error pid server for display terminated unexpectedly i also had error pid warning keyboard on display could not be secured error pid server for display terminated unexpectedly error pid warning keyboard on display could not be secured error pid server for display terminated unexpectedly also at the console the login box would come up for about seconds and then it would go away it would do this continuously i could login from another workstation to the hosts in question however i could not login on the console i tried killing xdm and restarting it but that didn t help i finally rebooted all the hosts which hurts when done in the middle of the day any help would be appreciated thanks phil phil neal systems programmer statistics department gn university of washington seattle wa usa look another bit repo man the movie
comp.windows.x	re realtime x tensions i am looking for information on any work that deals with real time support in x windows would be happy if you could provide any pointers or information concurrent has a product called realtimex tm that is a set of real time extensions to the x window system realtimex is currently supported on the concurrent series and series with the ga graphics accelerator if you need want more info let me know sam black once you remove the absurdity from human existence there isn t much left black westford ccur com concurrent computer corporation
comp.windows.x	re x interactive performance for image display about frames per second seems to be the lower limit for interactive operations for just bringing up an image for viewing less than second seems to be a good number of course the measure of response time should be based on the applications you are planning to run
comp.windows.x	frame buffer question for x r sun x window installation on a sun with cg alone and with cg as screen and cg as screen questions are there any hardware configuration changes on the cg and or cg devices that need to be made other than pulling out and inserting the cg frame buffer in the vme bus the cg is called a graphics accelerator as apposed to a frame buffer what is the significance of this to the x server and how do we install the sunos driver x to be compatable i would appreciate any information on this i am posting this on the behalf of dr john charlton who does not have net access please reply to him directly at charlton bme unc edu or just send it at this address and i will forward it thank you for your help anay panvalka cs unc edu
comp.windows.x	re plane xterminal do i want one in article c srv w watserv uwaterloo ca chudel watarts uwaterloo ca chris hudel writes ps all r apps run on r r servers right the bit server should work fine as far as i know xterminals running older versions can run the latest apps as long as the host machine has the r libraries installed i could be wrong though mike hopper acs virginia edu i will not raise taxes on the middle class unknown
comp.windows.x	menubutton widget question i m trying to create a button that has both a label and a bitmap using the menubutton widget is this possible right now all i get is the bitmap no sign of the label any help would be appreciated scott
comp.windows.x	how to access bit color on cg we have a sun and we have just acquired a cg frame buffer card the cg is supposed to support both a bit color visual and a monochrome visual the default visual for the xnews server is the monochrome and we are unable to change it to the bit visual we have tried using xgetvisualinfo to get a visual of depth but had no success xdpyinfo gives no information about a bit deep visual only monochrome there are two possible solutions if someone has patches for x r xsun server could they forward them to us otherwise could someone instruct us how to access the bit color in openwindows jon herlocker email herlock lclark edu lewis clark college portland or
comp.windows.x	xsun not finding default font sol hi netters i ve just built x r pl under solaris i ve used the multi screen patch as well as the r sunos patch and everything builds great except for that error message xsun gives me upon startup it says cannot set default font path stuff deleted and cannot set default font fixed if i supply the fp option it doesn t complain about the font path but still complains about the font i have symlinks from usr lib to the place where my distribution lives could somebody help me joel joel reymont z code software corporation e mail joel z code com redwood hwy suit b san rafael ca
comp.windows.x	re desqview x on a pc and network traffic in article qdeck com support qdeck com technical support writes in article qtk rn picasso cssc syd tansu com au gpatapis boyd tansu com au writes what sort of traffic is generated with the x calls i am curious to find out the required bandwidth that a link must have if one machine running dv x is supporting multiple users clients and we require adequate response time anyone have any ideas i expect the limiting factor will be your server machine not the network itself to give you a real world example here at quarterdeck we have roughly people using dvx to talk to a bunch of unix boxes novell file servers and each other it s not too much of a load on our ethernet with maybe concentrators so you have people on each segment if you had a badly loaded net or the apps you wanted to run were very network intensive you could run into some slowdowns but the biggest problem would be the machine itself say you have a with plenty of ram and a fast hard disk and network card if you have people running programs off it you re going to see some slowdowns because you re now on effectively a mhz of course dvx will attempt to see if tasks are idle and make sure they give up their time slice but if you have working programs running you ll know it well i can buy a bigger and more powerful server machine because of the significant drop in price year after year the link i want to use though isdn k is costly and the bandwidth limited that s why my interest lies in seeing if such a link can be used and see what traffic goes through it having said that if you can tweak the programs being run by adding in calls to give up time slices when idle and that sort of thing you could probably run people on a given machine before you started seeing slowdowns again this time from network bandwidth hmmm has anyone at your centre monitored the traffic at all are you running any standard ms windows programs like word what sort of packets go blazing through what size link do you have mb or mb what is the average traffic flow going through your network or do you have few high peaks and then many low points it all really depends on what the programs are doing ie you re going to see a slowdown from x bandwidth a lot sooner if your apps are all doing network things also what do you mean by network things i vision using ms windows and other windows applications over the network were the processes are running on the server and all i am getting are the displays i am wondering how good is the x and subsequently dv x protocol in transferring these images with x calls and displaying them on a client s machine quarterdeck office systems internet support tom bortels pricing ordering info qdeck com tech questions support qdeck com bbs fax compuserve go quarterdeck q fax from touch tone phone for technotes on demand george patapis pan metron ariston telecom c s s c lane cove email gpatapis cssc syd tansu com au p o box a sydney south fax nsw australia voice
comp.windows.x	hp interface architect hey gui folks does anyone out there have experience with the hp interface architect gui dev tool if so can i call you and ask a couple of quick questions i promise i ll be brief the questions are simple and of course i ll call on my nickel jeff copeland jeffcop i isc com x interactive systems corp now a systemhouse co jeff copeland jeffcop i isc com x
comp.windows.x	xv has escaped no not another false alarm not a it ll certainly be done by next week message no this is the real thing i repeat this is not a drill batten down the hatches hide the women and lock up the cows xv has finally escaped i was cleaning its cage this morning when it overpowered me broke down the office door and fled the lab it was last seen heading in the general direction of export lcs mit edu at nearly k per second if found it answers to the name of contrib xv tar z have a blast i m off to the vacation capital of the u s waco texas jhb
comp.windows.x	searching cad software hi out there i m looking for mechanic construction cad software either pd sources or sun binaries respective the licence who knows any package and a source site to get it thx fabian fabian hoppe phone elsternstr fax w gevelsberg email fabian vivian w open de germany
comp.windows.x	is there a simple way to check what action a mouse button will take w o actually executing it somehow one of my xterminal users has made it so that a click of mb right automatically kills all clients oh my thanx fish john r vanderpool internet fish eosdata gsfc nasa gov nasa gsfc hstx vox so you run and you run to catch up with the sun but it s sinking racing around to come up behind you again rw dg
comp.windows.x	anybody have patched version of xroach for tvtwm i read about the code you can put in to most applications so that the virtual desktop stuff in tvtwm doesn t confuse them or is the application confusing the virtual ness chicken the egg but wanted to see if it has been applied to a version of xroach i never could quite get ssetroot to work either any suggestions luckily xv root quit does the trick for the most part also i ld be quite interested in hearing more about the icon region for each virtual window under tvtwm that i read a thread on last week here thanx fish john r vanderpool internet fish eosdata gsfc nasa gov nasa gsfc hstx vox so you run and you run to catch up with the sun but it s sinking racing around to come up behind you again rw dg
comp.windows.x	help in developing a x windows interface for gdb hi i am trying to write an x windows based interface that runs on top of gdb could anyone help me in understanding the way we are supposed to fork gdb off as a subprocess i currently use pipes but when i try and debug this program the following happens program main int x printf enter x scanf d x printf x d n x output the program hangs without returning the output of the printf statement when i type in a value like then all the printf s output comes out at one time is there any other way besides using pipes to do this i e like ioctl or something else thanks deepak deepak mulchandani advanced products research and development laboratory motorola semiconductor products sector austin tx deepak inxs sps mot com
comp.windows.x	motif server for ascii terminals does anyone know of an x server for character cell terminals doesn t have to be anything fancy as long is it works
comp.windows.x	re finding out state of state keys eg capslock and numlock in aa blue arbortext com rps arbortext com ralph seguin writes my question is this is there a means of determining what the state of capslock and or numlock is i don t know any way except to see what modifiers are on in th keypress event of course if there is some reason why you need to always know the state of modifiers even if your windows don t have the keyborads focus you can always ask for keypress events from the root window then you get all the keypresses and you always know what have been pressed an even more pointed question is there an easy means of making an x keyboard act like a pc keyboard ie capslock is active and the user presses shift a i d like to get a lowercase a instead of a i think this is just a question of how to implement xlookupstring you can always write another function that interprets the keypresses as you like you can look at the implementation of xlookupstring from the xlib sources and then modify it a little bit sami tikka hut fi g sami s tikka o hut admd fumail c fi live long and prosper
comp.windows.x	looking for drawing packages greetings i am developing an application that allows a user to interactively create edit view a visual model i e topology of their network and i was wondering if anyone knew of any builder tools that exist to simplify this task in the past i have used visual edge s uim x product to develop other guis so i am familiar with uimss in general the topology will support objects and connecting links once the topology is created i want to provide the user with capabilities to support grouping zooming etc i am looking for some form of a higher abstraction other than x drawing routines to accomplish this specifically the zooming and grouping aspects may prove difficult and certainly time consuming if i have to roll my own suggestions greg greg software mitel com
misc.forsale	motorcycle wanted followup to kedz wpi wpi edu distribution ne organization worcester polytechnic institute keywords i am looking for an inexpensive motorcycle nothing fancy have to be able to do all maintinence my self looking in the range if you can help me out great please reply by e mail
misc.forsale	boat for sale boat for sale imperial fisherman featuring walkaround cuddy cabin v with volvo duo prop outdrive am fm cassette stereo vhf radio x hummingbird fishfinder all safty equipment covers and much more lb capacity includes storage trailer hardly used less than hrs asking or best offer for further information contact gerald at mansfield oh
misc.forsale	wanted brother p touch as it says i m interested in buying one of the little label makers and i can t afford a new one anybody tired of theirs e mail maureen gt a prism gatech edu maureen l eagle georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism gt a internet gt a prism gatech edu
misc.forsale	make your own talking elevators complete standalone system no computer required for burning sound files into eproms consists of apollo eprom programmer designed specifically for this job wont do anything else microphone logical devices eprom eraser to wipe the mistakes brand new freight
misc.forsale	rent timeshare week timeshare week for rent must use before july best offer week can be traded to anywhere in the world hawaii austria far east u s etc under interval international will answer questions about that and help you trade we have the paperwork and phone numbers in order to that contact jeff vinson vinson migration com daytime or leave msg
misc.forsale	test 
misc.forsale	for sale farenheit bit for sale orchid fareheit bit color card meg almost new or best offer this is a post for a friend call him thuan pho at t j houchin
misc.forsale	re deal gone bad what to do rjkoppes news weeg uiowa edu randy koppes writes have you head of small claims you may have to put money up front for the filing fees and then possibly having the local sheriff of his her city to deliver the bad news in the end the other party will end up paying for his her mistake with interest from the time of the filing to the pay date of the defendent i think the problem with small claims court is that you have to go to the location of the person you re taking action against it seems to me the time and money involved in travelling out there unless this person is close to you wouldn t be worth it for a small claim it really depends on how much money you re out if i am wrong about any of this someone please correct me kenneth simon dept of sociology indiana university internet kssimon indiana edu bitnet kssimon iubacs
misc.forsale	real estate sale residential lot for sale i have a nice residential lot available it is approx imately acre in size it is located in the development called belvedere plantation in pender county eastern north carolina north of wilmington the lot is near the intra coastal waterway golf and tennis are located on the development property belvedere plantation also has a mar ina facility on the icw this lot is nearby to all of the facilities mentioned i own the lot outright but it does not look like i will get back to the area anytime soon i would like to sell it for that reason make an offer if interested please send e mail gt b prism gatech edu mike smith michael davis smith georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism gt b internet gt b prism gatech edu
misc.forsale	misc radio and related equipment lots of misc and radio related items for sale still trying to lighten my load for moving motorola vhf pager digital no voice or readout capacitor checkers hp cd audio oscillator hz to khz feet brand new hardline for tv with new connectors this is in pieces lots of gain mobile antennas for vhf and uhf uhf amp input on mhz in milliwatts and output on mhz watts out with service manual this came out of a motorola mobilephone make reasonable offer looking for shipping or trade for rca tac uhf dash mount channel w service manual great condition currently on gmrs frequency repeater and simplex with pl of hz nobratron qr power supply by sorensen w service manual this is a amp variable power supply i have used it at vdc weight is lbs motorola tone remote model a works great with monitor button this unit is used to remote a base station with only two wires also have tone remote board from mitrek super consolette make offer could be used with above remote model trn a w schmetics both for motorola handhelds mh w charger speaker mic leather case currently on w dpl dpl decks from motorola moxy radios very reasonable esp if you take all anyone offer each for all or trade for pl reeds i have some or so i think also dpl code plugs e mail if you need some or i will sell all cheep transmit tubes for ge radios new in box db gain uhf mobile antennas by motorola used sold new for make reasonable offer sell for shipping motorcycle control head and cable with frequency selector and speaker all in one channel i believe this came from a micom asking shipping channel elements for motorola micor mitrek motrac sets of vhf micor uhf micor low band motrac more mobile microphones for ge motorola and rca reasonable offer motorola dc remote adaptor model tln apr i still have a few business band service manuals esp ge and motorola e mail for details phone restrict toll boxes use quarters dtmf mobile mic ge master pro uhf mobile not working with accessories this is a trunk mount radio shipping ge base cabinet w rack duplexer cabinet from vhf duplexers rack base cabinet johnson hd satellite dish jack or arm spools multi conductor wire w shield thickness is approx ge master pro mobile control heads and cables eagle model level sensor tells how full a container is the above prices do not include shipping some of the above items are pickup only because of size or weight locations is eastern ohio if interested e mail me or you can call jim sims sr n jdp before pm eastern re sims vax cns muskingum edu
misc.forsale	airline ticket r t between us canada and europe carrib latinam i have one round trip ticket good for travel between usa or canada and europe hawaii latin america or the caribbean it is fully transferable and can be used originating here or there i had intended to use it to visit my grandfather who was sick but he died before i got there so i have no use for it now i m looking for or best offer but act fast it will be gone on april no matter what patrick pat wrs com
misc.forsale	madison chicago italy air ticket wanted hi i am looking for a round trip madison chicago milan italy air ticket anybody who has a transferable ticket but will not use it please contact me at beng cae wisc edu open jaw ticket highly desired thank you b t ting beng cae wisc edu
misc.forsale	multisync d nec monitor for sale i have an nec multisync d monitor for sale great condition looks new it is dot pitch svga monitor that syncs from khz it is compatible with all aga amiga graphics modes leave message if interested make an offer
misc.forsale	forsale sony d diskman newsgroups rec audio misc forsale distribution na subject forsale sony d diskman
misc.forsale	nextstation for sale nextstation mhz moto dsp megapixel perfect no dimming or shaking keyboard mouse of course installed docs network and system administration user s reference applications the next book by bruce webster new copy black nextconnection modem cable hd disks still in unwrapped box others for backing up apps i need to sell this pronto to get a car my engine locked up machine runs great only used in my house has been covered when not in use on the days i wasn t around including federal express second day air or best offer cod to your doorstep within continental us i need to sell this now so if you don t agree with the price make an offer but within reason thanks jt please no letters asking me to donate for a tax break
misc.forsale	re computer books for sale updated list updated list hi everybody i have the following books for sale some of these books are brand new if you find any book you like and need more information about it please feel free to send me an e mail the buyers pays the shipping fees thanks abou sun soe clarkson edu title windows programming an introduction author william h murray iii chris h pappas publish osborne mcgraw hill pp cover soft note covers up to windows asking title harvard graphics the complete reference author cary jensen loy anderson publish osborne mcgraw hill pp cover soft note covers releases through draw partner asking title high performance interactive graphics modeling rendering and animating author lee adams publish windcrest pp cover soft note full of examples programs in basic asking title science and engineering applications on the ibm pc author r severin publish abacus pp cover soft note a lot of examples in basic asking title graphics for the dot matrix printer how to get your printer to perform miracles author john w davenport publish simon schuster pp cover soft note full of examples programs in basic asking title programming with turbo c author s scott zimmerman beverly b zimmerman publish scott foresman and co pp cover soft note some of the pages are highlighted asking title introduction to computer graphics author john demel michael miller publish brooks cole engineering division pp cover soft note example programs in basic and fortran asking title hard disk mangement the pocket reference author kris jamsa publish osborne mcgraw hill pp cover soft note pocket size asking
misc.forsale	re forsale and wanted hd fax typewriter from article pf qe b b seven up east sun com by jorge erex east sun com jorge lach sun bos hardware i m looking to buy the following items fax machine a plain one don t need any extras just the basic model good working order only these sell in stores for dirt cheap so don t make me any offers like it cost me but i ll sell it for pc at hard drive mfm type mbytes half height only i have a seagate st on my machine looking for same or similar type i have the following item for sale electronic typewriter panasonic with k memory small lcd display i m selling it bundled with a panasonic computer interface for this typewriter you can connect it to any pc parallel port sorry no cable it works perfect even in windows tty printer it s great if you need to send letter with typewriter look in stand alone mode it has pitches and several effects like underline bold overstrike built in dictionary and character word line correction asking for both the typewriter and the interface jorge lach sun microsystems computer corporation jorge lach east sun com east coast division chelmsford ma
misc.forsale	forsale sony d discman sony d portable diskman forsale good condition flawless costomer ac adapter v dc power supply tested v dc the factory adapter was tested v dc ac v input at the time i bought it three years ago when using it a lot of heat was generated inside the cd machine of course i wouldn t use it to risk this baby s life maybe that s why so many owners always complain about their portable machine going kaput after a short time usage v dc factory suggested led display asking plus shipping contact harry if interested
misc.forsale	intel memory board for sale i have an intel above board bit with megs of ram that i would like to sell asap please email me offers if interested thanks fred
misc.forsale	cm womens bike for sale i have the following bike for sale type dave scott centurion model size cm c c grouppo shimano cranks cm pedals shimano p with clips and straps frame tange ii double butted steel gearing front rear seat terry womens gel seat computer avocet extras double water bottle cages extra rear tire front c rear setup my wife is asking for obo let me know if you are interested at the address below thanks mike michael c whitman national system engineer telecom pyramid technology corporation gallows road suite vienna va phone pager sky page pin mike pyrdc va pyramid com or uunet pyrdc mike
misc.forsale	roland d for sale for sale roland d or best offer excellent condition includes over patches on disk in cakewalk sysex format buyer must pay cod shipping please e mail responses to gms po cwru edu thanks george george scott gscott b student cwru edu gms po cwru edu
misc.forsale	m dc s for sale we no longer use quarter inch tape for backups and have a case of unopened dc s for sale i ll sell the lot or in boxes of tapes each rob spellman rob mother bates edu computing support services bates college
misc.forsale	books for sale ann arbor mi books for sale tally up any and all of the books you want and send me a message shipping will be by us mail parcel post book rate payment in advance or cod accepted all books are in good to excellent condition paperbacks unless noted quantity discounts this list is updated continually the latest list can be requested by e mail this list supercedes all previous lists not responsible for typos new to listing claimed but not paid for yet david hwang ann arbor michigan david ganglion ann arbor mi us list of february computers using wordperfect que stewart using clipper que tiley trs assembly language programming barden practical programs games in basic tracton first book of wordperfect barnes corvettes y car parts and illustration catalog gm manual secrets of corvette detailing antonick eckler s complete guide to corvette fiberglass repair corvette owners workshop manual haynes chevrolet power catalog gm manual th edition corvette driver owner guide for models antonick chevrolet small block v speed equipment buyers guide lamm chilton s easy car care nd edition medicine ophthalmology study guide for medical students washington manual or medical therapeutics th ed respiratory physiology the essentials west rd ed langman s medical embryology th ed sadler hardcover sold essentials of human anatomy th ed woodburne hardcover sold cardiology reference book rd ed kloner handbook of antimicrobial therapy mandell guide to antimicrobial therapy sanford or free with of med books comprehensive review of the basic sciences sold how to get into medical dental school rd ed sexual interactions allgeier nd ed hardcover on call principles and protocols ruedy physicans desk reference pdr th ed hardcover introduction to general pathology spector nd ed medical school admissions strategy for success weschler getting into medical school brown ten point plan for college acceptance graham other college accounting th ed carson hardcover david w hwang m d university of michigan medical school wall street suite c telephone ann arbor michigan internet david ganglion ann arbor mi us
misc.forsale	music for sale the following listed tapes are priced to sell a friend of mine wants to get rid of them so let s just have some bids why don t we all are tapes btw ac dc back in black good condition razor s edge excellent poison open up and excellent flesh blood excellent guns roses appetite for destr fair use your ill good use your ill good skid row bside ourselves tape ok case cracked slave to the grind excellent jackyl jackyl excellent bon jovi keep the faith single excellent this is for her not for me jason
misc.forsale	meg ide harddrive western digital ide meg hard drive or bo shipping greg holdren gregh hprnd rose hp com geh mothra rose hp com
misc.forsale	re what s wrong with this picture in article apr iscsvax uni edu harter iscsvax uni edu writes fellow netters is anybody awake out there when someone posted a message telling people to stop posting computer ads to the misc forsale group he got about thirty response here not to mention the rash of e mail i m sure he received yet another person posts a message with the subject line blow me and an even worse text and only or people have the guts to say anything the majority not to mention the thread about selling someone s wife i am a guy therefore not overly bummed by it but a little common sense would dictate that this is offensive to many women and not really necessary scott ferguson exxon research engineering co project engineer new jersey all opinions not official view of exxon i must ask the question are we going to play stonehenge tonight
misc.forsale	wanted spi s war of the ring the subject line says it all i m trying to locate a copy of spi s board game war of the ring anyone have a copy with which they are willing to part thanks a million tony tlin stat berkeley edu
misc.forsale	need sharp t parts information i m looking for a sharp or ti travelmate for parts mine has a bad ram chip on the motherboard and i want to see what i can get for parts before sending it off to sharp for repairs if you have one drop me a line also i m trying to set one up for a friend who needs to read his old inch diskettes anyone have the pinout of the diskette expansion connector on the back of the inch floppy box if you respond please include a phone number i can t always get through with email as always thanks jim lewczyk mailer address is buggy reply to jiml strauss ftcollinsco ncr com james lewczyk x ncr mpd fort collins co jim lewczyk ftcollinsco ncr com
misc.forsale	re what s wrong with this picture in article apr erenj com srfergu rufus erenj com scott ferguson writes in article apr iscsvax uni edu harter iscsvax uni edu writes fellow netters is anybody awake out there when someone posted a message telling people to stop posting computer ads to the misc forsale group he got about thirty response here not to mention the rash of e mail i m sure he received yet another person posts a message with the subject line blow me and an even worse text and only or people have the guts to say anything the majority not to mention the thread about selling someone s wife i am a guy therefore not overly bummed by it but a little common sense would dictate that this is offensive to many women and not really necessary good point but i was just thinking i wanted to sell my hp sx calculator here in this newsgroup it is called a calculator but really it is a computer albeit a small one but it does function as one how come car adds are acceptable they cant run without computers nowadays where does one draw the line accept it live with it and if you care to avoid it jonathan i have lots of common sense i just choose to ignore it calvin jonathan sawitsky some random wierdo martimer wpi wpi edu
misc.forsale	super scope for sale snes hello folks i ve a super scope for sale it comes with a crt and all boxes and instructions included shipping included i got that only a month back and used only twice o o o o ooo ooo ooo ooo srikanth ponnapalli e mail address pobox raleigh n c sponna eos ncsu edu phone ponna s aza csc ncsu edu after pm sponnapa math ncsu edu
misc.forsale	sale canon eos elan outfit for sale canon eos elan outfit included eos elan body mm ef usm lens mm ef usm lens b w uv filters hoya circular polarising filter canon rc remote controller pentax lens cloth lowe pro camera bag galen rowell photoflex lens bag sapre lithium battery hove foto bokk user guide to canon eos elan all as new condition the whole lot firm contact david please do not e mail your queries all talks only by phone
misc.forsale	re value of kathy st pat sday stand in article dsblack pv vincent iastate edu dsblack iastate edu vilkata tdk writes i heard on one of these newsgroups a week or two ago that the kathy ireland budweiser posters were popular there are supposedly half size and life size posters well someone i know got a life size stand up cardboard thick damn good quality one and was wondering what it was worth anybody what about the st pat posters from last year i have a stack of about twenty and two of the card board cutouts no they are not for sale i collect them
misc.forsale	help how to get a scumster hi everyone i need an advice on what is the best way to get a scumster several weeks ago i posted an article on behalf of a friend who wanted an external hd for mac the scumster r e p called my friend and they agreed on a price my friend unexperienced and not too fluent in english paid by check requesting r e p to call him back when the check arrives and the hd is send well the check was cashed and that is that phone that r e p gave is on the answering machine all the time and there is no reaction when the message is left e mail address does not bounce but again there is no answer i know that r e p is a student at university of delaware i have his e mail address his us postal address and his phone the question is what is the best way to proceed thanks in advance for any advice sincerely victor levenson vvl h virginia edu p s the reason i did not put r e p s full name is that i still hope p p s if i get enough responses i will post a summary maybe even on a regular basis vl dr victor v levenson tel lab dept of biochemistry internet vvl h virginia edu
misc.forsale	sampler for sale ok people i really need to sell this sampler to pay off bills so i m even going to include sample cds worth at least separately in this deal it s an emax ii with standard memory and bit stereo sampling it s rackmount and has at least voice pol it s got a brand new connor sp meg internal scsi drive wk old never used it works perfect and runs perfect in addition access to a friends sound library of over gig of sounds is available all this for only the sample cd s are based on dance house techno stuff email or call thanks mike
misc.forsale	re amiga etc for sale as of in article pi in isg csugrad cs vt edu dwilson csugrad cs vt edu david wilson writes for sale as of pm amiga ux mhz unix compatible machine w meg hard drive meg ram no monitor keyboard esc and keys broken asking price obo mind my asking why you re selling a used machine with a damaged keyboard for the about the same price as a brand new a a ec megs meg ide hd hd floppy v os i d like to get an a locally for something reasonable like less than k without monitor brand new the a mhz meg hd hd floppy rom isn t running for more than or so considering it s damaged probabably has a real old version of the os i ll offer don t laugh my a isn t worth more than these days n tzeng nigel tzeng sig under construction
misc.forsale	re for sale book of life multi volume book set unopened i was wrong i guess they are closer to new i will probably still sell them for the above implied obo email me if you want more specifics this is a really attractive set of books kind of a bible encyclopedia set also email me if you know more about these books or post the information here
misc.forsale	wanted airconditioner i am looking for a good used window air conditioner a small one is preffered call peter and we ll talk about it or email me khiet cn ecn
misc.forsale	wanted futon i am looking for a large futon and frame call peter or e mail me khiet cn ecn
misc.forsale	misc electronic eqpt panasonic kx t h combo black cordless speaker phone all in one new now shipping obo curtis mathes vhs vcr remote included and it works with universal remotes works great but i replaced it with a stereo vcr paid years ago will sell for delivered obo radio shack stereo amp inputs tone and left and right volume speakers not included plus shipping if you are interested in either of the above mail me at radley gibbs out unc edu major computer science eith radley minor english radley gibbs oit unc edu computer amiga university of north carolina
misc.forsale	bernoulli removeable scsi drive disks storage space for sale iomega mb removeable hd for sale w cartridges total storage space comes out to be about mb cartridges still in original shrinkwrapping unused note this is not compatible with sysquest cartridges scsi interface required plugs right into the back of macintoshes but i don t have a controller for the ibm all utilities i have for it are for the mac if you have a mac then this is for you i have a ton of software on these disks that i don t use anymore because i sold my mac system stuff included most of the pd stuff from info mac site lots of gif s and lots of sound effects entire disk with just sounds i am asking for all plus shipping for more information send me mail cxs ultb isc rit edu or call ask for sawran cheers chris cxs ultb isc rit edu cxs ritvax isc rit edu
misc.forsale	electronics panasonic kx t h combo black cordless speaker phone all in one new now shipping obo curtis mathes vhs vcr remote included and it works with universal remotes works great but i replaced it with a stereo vcr paid years ago will sell for delivered obo radio shack stereo amp inputs tone and left and right volume speakers not included plus shipping if you are interested in either of the above mail me at radley gibbs out unc edu major computer science eith radley minor english radley gibbs oit unc edu computer amiga university of north carolina
misc.forsale	hard drives etc for sale hard drives all drives include manuals warranty fujitsu gigabyte scsi hard drive quantum meg scsi prodrive fujitsu meg scsi hard drive apple zero footprint hard drive case with power supply accellerated video apple gc accellerated graphics card with software init millions of colors fast hardcopy apple imagewriter ii printer with spare print head these aren t cheap fax machine baud with leather travel case and many other accessories to discuss the purchase of any of these items call john at if you get the answering machine please leave a message with your name and phone number letting me know which piece you are interested in john do not reply to this account
misc.forsale	your custom resume on disk your custom resume on disk macintosh or ibm compatible never pay the high cost of copy service again we will completely develop and format your custom resume package and mail you the disk or transmit the information via electronic mail within hours with over years experience in the employment industry and a member of the national resume writer s association you can leave the burden of developing your resume to us you can easily custom edit all information to target each company and position complete package includes custom developed resume custom cover letter custom follow up letter custom interview thank you letter custom job acceptance letter custom job decline letter custom resignation letter laser printed copies on high quality paper available upon request contact vicki burns via e mail tg n unix andrew cmu edu telephone
misc.forsale	seagate hard drive forsale brand new never been used seagate st a x meg hard drive forsale paid includes mounting brackets i bought it and then ended up buying a new computer bro takes it
misc.forsale	porsche porsche turbo trim spoilers graphite black all around excellent condition removable factory sunroof leather interior new a c new timing belt bra k miles obo patrick patrick boylan wind river systems alameda ca pat wrs com
misc.forsale	bunch o pc stuff for sale got a few things i want to get rid of paradise ega casper ega monitor mhz motherboard dram sipp mhz momboard dram only hayes prodigy special b external modem meg sipp k sipp about megs dram i believe there s m of ns and one of or ns but not absolutely sure also have an xt with k serial board hercules board and amber monitor the only thing this system is missing is the power supply make an offer on any all of this stuff and thanx for contributing to mitch s v bis modem fund mitch note cross posted to several forsale froups followups redirected back to me there s a reason for that i don t read these groups mitch gorman srscnslt telesciences com things are not what they seem through a crack in mother earth blazing hot the molten rock spills out over the land and the lava s the lover who licks your boots away
misc.forsale	electronics panasonic kx t h combo black cordless speaker phone all in one new now shipping obo curtis mathes vhs vcr remote included and it works with universal remotes works great but i replaced it with a stereo vcr paid years ago will sell for delivered obo radio shack stereo amp inputs tone and left and right volume speakers not included plus shipping if you are interested in either of the above mail me at radley gibbs oit unc edu or call me keith at ps i made a type on my email address the first posting it is now correct major computer science eith radley minor english radley gibbs oit unc edu computer amiga university of north carolina
misc.forsale	re microsoft dos upgrade for sale adn ritvax isc rit edu writes in article pctnfinn dp eve usc edu yuanchie eve usc edu yuan chieh hsu writes ms dos upgrade for sale best offer over opened unregistered so does anyone care to enlighten us whether dos is worth upgrading to how good is it s compression and can it be turned on off at will any other nice nasty features according to reports if you don t have dos yet and don t have any utilities qemm stacker pctools norton then dos may be worth it for people who have dos and some sort of utility dos doesn t offer much you d never know it from the usual hype that marketing is able to create however tom hatton hatton cgl ucsf edu
misc.forsale	fax via e mail finally a fax service to all internet users in the continental u s without prepayment of any kind this service is provided by information system international based in fishers indiana at isifisher aol com as an internet user your credit has been automatically approved so you can start sending faxes right now how to send a fax to use this service e mail to isifisher aol com in the following format your name your phone number your mailing address the number you send fax to the recipient s name and company the address and phone number of the recipient optional fax content your fax will be sent out within hours every fax will include a standard cover sheet free of charge which contains your name your phone number your address the recipient s name and company upon sending out your fax a receipt will be sent for your record important if this is your first time to use the fax service you must include the following paragraph at the beginning of your e mail i hereby authorize information system international to open a fax account for me i agree to pay all charges incurred upon receiving my monthly bill what format is acceptable only plain ascii format and rich text format rtf are acceptable for plain ascii format times new roman fonts of point size will be used for rtf format your fax document will appear exactly the same as it would appear on your local laser printer in almost all word processing software on pc mackintosh sun workstation etc you can save your document in rtf format how to pay the first time you use our fax service we will open an account for you under your name you will be billed each month if you have a balance or when your balance has been over whichever comes first cost the cost for continental u s excluding hawaii alaska is only for the first page for each additional page each fax will include a cover sheet which is free if you plan to use this service you should save the entire text posted above
misc.forsale	price quote wanted from sam halperin cccbbs uceng dx mhz in zero insertion force socket empty over drive socket eisa motherboard with k cache bit eisa slots bit vesa local bus slots bit isa slots mb ns ram simms sockets filled with mb strips sockets open bit eisa ide hard drive controller meg ide hard disk drive w k cache ms diamond viper weitek vesa local bus graphics card w mb mag mx f monitor serial ns afn uart parralell game ports full tower case watt power supply x bays x bays x hard drive bays mb mb floppy drives enhanced key keyboard hi resolution dpi serial mouse ms dos and ms windows or newer ami bios joint data motherboard day money back gaurantee unconditional year parts warranty lifetime labor warranty one year nationwide on site service this system is currently availble from comtrade the company that won some of the highest over dell gateway and ibm awards in recent pc magazine reviews your price must be highly competitive without sacrificing any of the quality standards listed above please respond to sam halperin cccbbs uceng via e mail
misc.forsale	mfm controller copy card for sale bit mfm fd hd controller b o copy card w software and cable b o can copy any protected software if interested please reply to this account wun chun chau what a crazy world internet wchau eng buffalo edu uucp rutgers uunet cs buffalo edu wchau internet wchau cs buffalo edu bitnet wchau cs buffalo edu ubvm bitnet do you want to die young if you know what i mean
misc.forsale	florida vacation package forsale the package is called sun and sand it includes days nights accommodations in orlando and daytona beach hotels are selected from major hotel chains and family resorts two adults and up to three children fully transferable expires at for extention of one more year it needs a days advance reservation esp for peak season the reservation department will offer a coupon book which may give you saving up to price i bought it for which is a good deal for peak seasons for now i will not turn down any reasonable offers must sell it doesn t include transportation and you have to pay day for hotel tax please e mail your respond
misc.forsale	re your custom resume on disk in article fk zhq uh eb u andrew cmu edu tami grudzinski tg n andrew cmu edu writes your custom resume on disk macintosh or ibm compatible never pay the high cost of copy service again we will completely develop and format your custom resume package and mail you the disk or blah blah blah deleted who s we carnegie mellon
misc.forsale	house for sale mediterranean coast spain mediterranean investment property for sale javea alicante spain costa blanca villa on a large lot in the wooded pine hills above the noise bedrooms living dining room glassed in sun porch kitchen bathroom large lot surrounded by traditional white wall with wrought iron gates room for an in ground pool minutes from the sea and supermarket minutes from town and full amenities area has specially favourable microclimate mentioned in a who climate report seat fiat runabout car years old may be included in the deal ideal for retirement or as a family holiday resort must sell for family reasons asking reply by email or call canada simon curry executive director tele the royal society of canada fax po box ottawa k g j email curry doe carleton ca simon curry tele the royal society of canada fax po box ottawa k g j email curry doe carleton ca
misc.forsale	delay sampler hey i am interested in buying a digital delay pedal preferably capable of sampling and infinite repeat if you re familiar with phil keaggy i want to mimic or at least as close as possible what he does in concert i e click the pedal play something click it again and what he played between clicks repeats infinitely while he playes leads over it anyway let me know jason dietrijj mentor cc purdue edu
misc.forsale	re datman for sale in article bdavisc yum k j netcom com bdavis netcom com bryan davis writes sony tcd d dat walkman for sale hardly used still under warrantee comes with optical digital input output as well as standard rca analog cables includes recharable battery charger and ac adaptor or best offer just to inform the readers of newsrc sony has just introduced a new datman the tcd d which is smaller and less expensive than the d also the d has a coaxial jack which the d lacks oh the d has always been available through mail order houses for less than dollars new with the new model coming out i suspect the now obsolete d will be selling for even less the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the university of north carolina at chapel hill the campus office for information technology or the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu or
misc.forsale	wanted used audio mixer i m looking for a used inexpensive audio mixer i need at least channels of stereo input and channel of stereo output but i would prefer or more input channels each channel needs to have at least a volume control i ll consider buying broken equipment the mixer needs to be fairly small i haven t got a lot of space for it john lange jlange zippy radian com radian corp box austin tx
misc.forsale	logitech scanman i would like to sell my logitech hand held gray scale scanner i originally bought it as a toy and have no practical use for it hardly ever used it package includes board scan mate software ansel image editing software all original manuals box etc originally bought for in jan selling for if interested let me know hans meyer
misc.forsale	twin size mattress boxsprng frame for sale twin size mattress box spring and frame for sale medico pedic type of mattress excellent condition yrs old well maintained you come and pick it up stuff is located in paloalto asking for contact suresh w h e mail suresh pa dec com o o o o o o o o suresh balasubramanian suresh pa dec com n n dd digital equipment corp
misc.forsale	space rack for sale lower price i am posting this message for a friend of mine who does not have a computer account if you have any questions please call dan at equipment rack for sale space eia rack in carpet covered on wheels shipping
misc.forsale	dj equipment nes carts cordless phone for sale lower prices i have a few things to sell all items are in great condition all prices include shipping if you have any questions contact me by e mail or call me at darryl dj equipment mixer case with pop up rails patch cords meters gold tips records casualties of war inch single eric b rakim get some inch single eyc boo ya tribe black s magic salt pepa heart break new edition the right stuff vanessa williams misc toshiba ft cordless phone books each book is priced as marked microcomputers for management p fuhrman g buck decison making st edition statistics a fresh approach d sanders r eng a murph quantitative approaches to r levin d rubin management j stinson
misc.forsale	for sale u s robotics baud modem obo i am upgrading my computer systems to fax modems and am selling my baud usr modems without fax or error correction one is internal the other is external both are u s robotics the highest rated modem manufacturer add shipping or pick up in the washington dc area offers welcome i would trade either for a x x ns simm john baker
misc.forsale	sale computer misc books rpg stuff etc y in article apr kuhub cc ukans edu jamiller kuhub cc ukans edu writes the following are for sale duh golden image dpi b w hand scanner dpaint iii amiga vision mulitmedia authorizing software baud bandit terminal communication software the bard s tale iii thief of fate graphic rpg f retaliator flight simulator future wars fantasy scifi graphic rpg rvf honda motocycle simulation patlabor ingram and phantom labor models japanese anime models robotech rpg books english the ingrid invasion southern cross battletech books english the fox s teeth exploits of mckinnon s raiders gray death legion mercenary s handbook citytech aerotech mechwarrior ad d books monster manual monster manual ii fiend folio lots of books in japanese and english on subjects of japanese culture asian art history japanese language socio linguistics ethnography linguistics physics calculaus menum and folis unix and amiga programming economics micro macro intl trade finance american economic development and philosophy language ethics cognition science if there s something you think you might be interested in let me know and i ll tell you what i have jamiller kuhub cc ukans edu james miller chicchai sig no ho ga ichiban iin janai ka enlightenment happens jamiller kuhub cc ukans edu james miller chicchai sig no ho ga ichiban iin janai ka enlightenment happens
misc.forsale	intel oo ex modem for sale intel oo baud modem external v v bis very good working condition never had any problems obo leave daytime number for fastest response the kilowatt bbs deer park li ny
misc.forsale	for sale or trade ibm games ibm games for sale or trade o adventure eric the unready legend king s quest v sierra cd rom edition o sports michael jordan in flight electronic arts mike ditka s ultimate football accolade david ledbetter s greens microprose o strategy risk virgin this software comes with all original packaging and manuals price includes ground shipping to continental us i will trade for current games send me your list chris davis ccdavis nuwave b ingr com
misc.forsale	misc stuff for sale misc items for sale walkman aiwa model hs t year old mint condition hardly used autoreverse band equalizer super bass dolby noise reduction am fm tuner paid asking shipping mount plate sony model cpm p mounting plate for sony portable cd players for portable plugs into car lighter snaps onto the bottom of any sony cd player portable cd player perfect condition will also throw in a cassette adapter in so so condition paid asking shipping am fm factory stereo from toyota with am fm radio autoreverse cassette cassette deck digital tuning like new condition only in car months car stereo asking shipping car speakers sherwood two way car speakers in car for months inch excellent condition paid asking shipping inch factory speakers from toyota excellent condition asking shipping nintendo nintendo game boy light boy tetris super mario land gameboy nfl football castlevania adventure hyper lode runner years games old all in working condition asking shipping accessories whole internet the whole internet user s guide and catalog by ed krol book guide to using the internet where to fing information and resources paid asking shipping microsoft never used came with my computer asking shipping visual basic microsoft for windows never used came with my computer quick c sells new student edition for asking shipping please resond to fields cis ohio state edu thanks jonathan d fields
misc.forsale	vacation hi netters i have the following vacation packages for sale bahamas vacation round trip tickets to freeport grand bahamas double occupancy hotel accomodation at per person per night orlando florida las vegas reno lake tahoe vacation one round trip airline ticket from major us airports to the of the above mentioned destinations hotel accomodation for or people for days nights for those who are interested drop me a mail at clim cis ohio state edu
misc.forsale	re shipping costs in article pd e usenet ins cwru edu kxj po cwru edu kijin jung writes in a previous article tomc arezzo oas olivetti com tom carlino says recently i bought a musical instrument through the internet and had it shipped to me via ups ground the shipping was done through a mail box service mailboxes etc being somewhat surprised at the price i compared prices of shipping this way to shipping directly through ups and this is a summary i am not making any endorsements or condemnations but merely presenting the facts from which you may draw your own conclusions i ve encountered the same thing with mailboxes etc and i suggest anyone to use the original ups service if at all possible shipping to virginia from cleveland was around for pounds and c o d was as opposed to for ups i ll third the opinion about this outfit franchise now when i buy over the net and pick up the shipping costs i ll specify that i only pick up the normal ups charges as if delivered directly to ups as i ve been burned by shipping charges for a pkg i will never use a mailing service unless i don t have the right box and the buyer needs whatever immediately i ll also tell the person if they agreed to pick up shipping what is going on other things to watch out for consider the rates are to higher than ups direct for a non ups truck package they quoted a rate of fed ex economy air was only for the same weight rps a trucking package company in many cities only wanted guess who got it the mailbox operator told me i was not telling the truth about competitors rates said rps was unreliable i ve used them before with no problems etc right a cod check goes to the mailing service our local mailbox then takes its sweet time mailing me the remade check all this for an additional over the ups cod charge what a deal for packages over they charge you about double over what ups charges them for insurance i ve never had a claim but other netters is ralph seguin out there have told horror stories about them all package traces have to be done through mailbox by mailbox our local mailbox operator told me i was lying when i asked him why their rates were stratospheric compared to direct ups does he ever check probably not their ups ground rates come close to fed ex s economy air rate and fed ex will pick up ups will pick up for a charge in most areas dave medin phone w ssd networking h intergraph corp m s gd internet dtmedin catbyte b ingr com huntsville al uucp uunet ingr b catbyte dtmedin everywhere you look at least around my office the opinions expressed here are mine or those of my machine
misc.forsale	heavy metal the magazine for sale not the music i am cleaning out the coffers i have a virtually mint collection of heavy metal magazine this is not a music mag but the really neato mag with giger and moebius artwork et al jam packed with amazing sci fi and fantasy artwork by many masters all are mint with the exception of the that have split seam on the cover only but are otherwise perfect no cut outs or missing pages i have sep nov and dec issues for all issues for and jan thru sep for issues in all i believe i will not break them up they will be sold as a single lot send your offers to me shipping not included these are pretty heavy of course if you are local mass usa you can come get em in person arthur noguerola vos stratus com
misc.forsale	for sale old jazz magazines the following jazz magazines will go for the best offer received shipping not included these are pretty heavy of course if you are local mass usa you can come get em in person all are in great condition these will go as one lot i will not break them up metronome sep feb june nov dec june nov downbeat jan was newspaper sized folded jan feb dec mar apr may may jun jul sep dec dec aug oct oct dec dec jan apr jul sep dec feb feb jun nov apr aug sep oct oct feb mar may jun jul jul aug sep dec may may jun jun jul aug mar mar may may nov also i will toss in free jazz journal feb apr and coda magazine jun dec arthur noguerola vos stratus com
misc.forsale	re cds priced for immediate sale hey now the following cds are still available offers trades considered gowan lost brotherhood katrina the waves break of hearts joe cocker live charles neville diversity thanks rich
misc.forsale	re microsoft dos upgrade for sale in article hatton cgl ucsf edu hatton socrates ucsf edu tom hatton writes adn ritvax isc rit edu writes so does anyone care to enlighten us whether dos is worth upgrading to how good is it s compression and can it be turned on off at will any other nice nasty features according to reports if you don t have dos yet and don t have any utilities qemm stacker pctools norton then dos may be worth it for people who have dos and some sort of utility dos doesn t offer much you d never know it from the usual hype that marketing is able to create however imho it seems to be worth the to upgrade doublespace seems a bit saner than stacker which i ve replaced memmaker is nowhere near as aggressive as qemm but it doesn t hose my system like qemm did at least it hasn t yet microsoft antivirus is just the latest version or a reasonably recent one of cpav mine was very aged so this was quite welcome ms dos ain t the end all be all of operating systems but it s better than a sharp stick in the eye unless you happen to be into that sort of thing lee preimesberger st g jetson uh edu undergraduate scum university of houston usa there is freedom of choice for every choice but mine
misc.forsale	mattel electronics baseball for sale or trade best offer if anyone s still interested i have one mattel electronic game left for sale or trade it s baseball tan case and includes a volt battery and the original manual i was able to sell soccer and basketball for and traded the football game for a genesis cart so i was happy i will entertain all offers cash or genesis carts by the way baseball is in excellent condition and works perfectly thanx in advance dave
misc.forsale	re forsale genesis games kelvin williams kwill lunatix uucp wrote these games are forsale or trade sonic hedgehog ii two copies manuals and cases each brand new hello i am interested in sonic ii but when i send to the address below i get mail bounced back with host unknow error please reply to kwill lunatix uucp subject games paul wood pcwood astro ocis temple edu
misc.forsale	tech books for sale cheap someone please buy these books i am not asking much liquidation send me your offer no reasonable offer refused first come first served i just want to get rid of these books just make me an offer calculus w analytic geometry by authur b simon copyright date below avg condition but still readable give me shipping incl and its yours writing good software in fortran graham smith shipp incl general chemistry principles modern applications r petrucci fourth edition big book this book following books for all solutions manual for chemistry book study guide for chemistry book send me your offers via email at chopin udel edu sam chopin udel edu
misc.forsale	items for sale items for sale howard miller clock it chimes like a grandfather clock painting a tiger in the snow it is a beautiful painting the tiger looks like it can jump off of the canvas and get you mens diamond ring size a rows of diamonds b k gold call or email me donald walker hm wk
misc.forsale	no more rolex imitations jammer dit is geen fantastische advertentie over nep rolexen maar een evenzo duidelijke mededeling hieromtrent aangezien het alleen al aanbieden van deze horloges onder vermelding van de echte merknaam niet geheel correct is wil ik met dit bericht duidelijk maken dat ik marcel engelbertink niet meer zal adverteren met imitatie horloges van het merk rolex enig persoon die hierin geiinteresseerd is kan ik jammer genoeg ook niet meer helpen for all the foreign people who can t even understand dutch in spite of earlier mailing about fake rolex s i announce that i don t have any information available any longer and i won t use the trade name rolex anymore for those fake models yours fakefully m g engelbertink
misc.forsale	mazda glc for sale want to sell a mazda glc for or b o excellent working condition just passed inspection has a sun roof no marks on body contact soon kohli ecs umass edu or kohli
misc.forsale	irwin owners don t miss this deal on tapes irwin suggests the use of pre formatted tapes for their tape drives as you often can t successfully format a tape and need bulk erase it before you can format it again anyway i have some new preformatted tapes for irwin tape drives irwin accutrak series mb ea new never used m dc rhomat format ea wraped email if interested feng the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the university of north carolina at chapel hill the campus office for information technology or the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu or
misc.forsale	gameboy games trade for genesis game gear or gameboy games uupdate i have the following gameboy games available for trade pitfighter metroid ii bases loaded blades of steel malibu beach volleyball world cup soccer tennis spiderman robocop motocross maniacs double dribble on basketball looking for genesis games missile command gameboy game gear games please leave e mail if interested thanx dave webb p s i m still waiting to hear from allen thoren jr about trading mb volleyball for missile command please get in touch also waiting to hear from raul rombh cunyvm cuny edu about genesis trade
misc.forsale	web of spiderman auction update web of spiderman auction list issues annuals this set will be auctioned as a complete set if there is enough interest the books have been quickly evaluated for grade all books are vf to nm unless noted below these were ascertained when putting the books into new bags with boards books per bag small dinks in spine spine slightly rolled small crease in front cover dinks in spine slight tear edge front cover spine dinged up cover pages crinkled from humidity crinkled form water damage cover not flat shipping smudge on cover spine dinked up small dinks in spine spine dinks tiny crease top left corner of cover dinks in spine paper clip mark small spine dinks slight spine roll spine dinks back cover crease cover wrinkled annual slight spine roll cover marks current high bid bidder jon jon tivoli the successful bidder assuming there is one will have the books sent ups cod cash or money order will be added to the total successful bid to cover these charges so bid accordingly thanks mike
misc.forsale	nintendo games and control deck forsale nintendo control deck with two controllers and gun one controller has grips attached the nes will only connect to a composite monitor or tv with audio and video rca input jacks and needs some repairs or best offer games for sale tecmo baseball techmo bowl double dribble wayne gretzky hockey golf super mario duck hunt super mario ii super mario iii teenage mutant ninja turtles the arcade game megaman toobin spelunker tecmo super bowl total i ll give all of them to you for the best offer and throw in the control deck i ll also accept the best offer for each of the games individually the oldest of these is two years old most of them are less than a year old email at tligman andy bgsu edu phone at tom warning signature under construction enter at your own risc
misc.forsale	preamp and cd player forsale in ma forsale proton p preamplifier about years old originally asking or best offer has inputs for tape tape cd phono video and tuner separate listen and record selectors bass eq subharmonic filter and mono switch high quality volume potentiometer in excellent condition with original boxes and manual sony d portable diskman this is the one designed to play the mini cd s you can play normal size cds but the disk sticks out the side works well but may skip occasionally it should be tuned up heads aligned cleaned etc in excellent condition it has not been used all that much with carrying case original list was i think but i ll take or best offer it would be good for an office or just to sit on your desk please email me eric enterprise bih harvard edu or telephone at eric eric j hansen eric enterprise bih harvard edu center for clinical computing boston ma dos mac programming ultrix administration general chaos
misc.forsale	re heavy metal the magazine for sale not the music in article prs t eqp transfer stratus com arthur noguerola vos stratus com writes i am cleaning out the coffers i have a virtually mint collection of heavy metal magazine this is not a music mag but the really neato mag with giger and moebius artwork et al jam packed with amazing sci fi and fantasy artwork by many masters all are mint with the exception of the that have split seam on the cover only but are otherwise perfect no cut outs or missing pages i have sep nov and dec issues for all issues for and jan thru sep for issues in all i believe i will not break them up they will be sold as a single lot send your offers to me shipping not included these are pretty heavy of course if you are local mass usa you can come get em in person arthur noguerola vos stratus com if you send offers to this guy keep in mind that you can get mint back issues from the publisher for plus shipping all except the very first or three issues
misc.forsale	computer stuff for sale for sale in the baltimore dc area one mac x with radius bit color dual page display and adapter microtek z color scanner qms colorscript color postscript printer baud modem dyanfile with k and meg floppies software packages including pagemaker quark express style photoshop etc obo one compaq lte with internal modem and meg ram hard drive obo one compaq slt with meg ram and meg hard drive obo one compaq n motherboard only make an offer this has just returned from compaq service six muxes with baud modems built in make an offer s cpu from a multi user turbodos system offer contact elliott office home or delliott digex com internet
misc.forsale	humminbird depth sounder forsale hi i have a humminbird hdr depth sounder for sale it has been used for season on my sailboat all parts are included as well as the installation instructions it is even packed in the original box it came in there is no damage to the unit or the transducer in fact the transducer was mounted inside the hull in a piece of pipe glued to the hull so it led a sheltered life the transducer can be mounted either inside the hull as i did or on the transom it cannot be placed in a hole drilled into your hull it is fully waterproof and fits into a hole in a bulkhead that s where i had it installed or into a standard dashboard on a powerboat it reads depth to and has a backlit lcd display it has an adjustable shallow water alarm built in i am changing out my instruments to another manufacturer that outputs the nmea information this little depth sounder works fine and is very stable it is usually priced as low as in some catalogs i paid the first takes it or best offer john r miller catalina tinker toy
misc.forsale	south jersey condo i have recently graduated and am looking to move into a bigger house leaving me with a condo to sell it was originally listed at but is now listed at the following is a list of features master bedroom x bedroom x living room x dining room x kitchen x w extra cabinets full modern bathroom full wtw carpeting new excluding bath oil hot water heating converting to gas this summer central air condo fee mo including heat hot water landscaping pool tennis courts in addition washer dryer both in condo refrigerator dishwasher ceiling fans all window treatments i don t understand why i can t call them curtains and a mantle large storage room in private basement plenty of undesignated parking if you d like to free me for the bliss of regular homeownership please call kathleen sullivan at the rohrer sayers real estate agency she ll arrange for a showing off now for that disclaimer caca subject to errors changes ommissions withdrawls and sales without notice this posting is not to benefit or at the request of any commercial agency i simply want out flames can be sent to dev null thanks pnelson clam rutgers edu paul g nelson systems hardware integration technician
misc.forsale	software unlimited sorry to waste the bandwidth does anyone know a software mail order company called software unlimited i ordered a software from them and they charged my credit card but never did send the package to me i call them many times but nobody answer the phone i also check computer shoppers and found they don t advertise anymore if you know if they are still in business or you know how to contact them please tell me thank you very much ching tze su
misc.forsale	incredible car incredible price my brother is preparing to pay another year of college expenses and asked me to post this alfa romeo gold milano model v engine power everything seats comfortably looks runs great o b o contact brian wall if interested dallas area
misc.forsale	laser printer forsale repost the following is posted for a friend you can send replies to this email address or call him at glen i have a citizen overture laser printer for sale it is in excellent condition it has been used less than one year on this drum i am asking but all offers will be considered below are some specs on it toner lifespan pages drum lifespan pages resolution dpi memory k emulation epson fx ibm proprinter diablo printing capacity quad density graphics tray capacity sheets reason for sale financial i need to pay tuition thanks glen anderson bigelos hobo ece orst edu
misc.forsale	cds for sale the following are available for each includes postage if in usa ted nugent penetrator jah wobble rising above bedlam black ep marshall tucker band long hard ride kid frost east side story coffin break thirteen steve wariner band i got dreams
misc.forsale	novice beekeeper seeks tools of trade if you d like to find a home for that beekeeping equipment you ll never use again here s a likely victim uh customer to make a deal call laura forbes during regular business hours or respond to me through e mail and i ll pass your message along
misc.forsale	reciever cd player keyboards for sale the following items are for sale onkyo tx reciever amplifier only months old perfect condition wpc stereo speaker ability channel memory has digital and direct tuning also plus it also have an earphone jack bought for new asking for no less than best offer gets it obviously price dropped to no offers so far what s the deal no recievers needed two zeos ibm external keyboards under a month old bought for each new selling for a piece or for both i pay shipping snes has been sold and the cd player still hasn t been sold if you offer or more i will instantly send it to you ask for stats on the cd player yoshi yoshi atlantis cs orst edu
misc.forsale	altec lansing subwoofers for sale the headline says it all oh god i hope it works oh god i hope it works damn i should have know that rf stood for rarely functional arlo georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia aude internet gt a prism gatech edu
misc.forsale	wanted summer sublease in washington dc i ll be spending this summer in washington dc working in bowie md does anyone have a summer sublease that they d like to unload i ll be in the area from about may august please mail me any pertinent info at kimgh mentor cc purdue edu thanks in advance gene
misc.forsale	diamond stealth bit svga for sale brand new still shrink wraped stealth for sale plus shipping and cod specifications based on s bit coporcessor x x hz ni x x k ni x x million ni system requires or based isa or vesa vl bus with fast turbowindows drivers for and other drivers for other popular softwares like wp microsoft word lotus autocad yj
misc.forsale	tektronix scope for sale tektronix scope for sale mhz bandwidth portable not one of the xx series boatanchors delayed sweep works fine i don t have the manual they are available from various places no probes shipping email me for more info regards keith keith kanoun wa q kdk radio nl nuwc navy mil
misc.forsale	video title maker for sale videonics title maker system about monthes old used only once includes character generator model tm rez x available chars fonts stereo sound over a million different colors available special effects full keyboard design mail me for more details thums up video editor model tu marks differnent sections of tape as thumbs up or thumbs down so you can skip the bad parts on tape built in video enhancer for copying tapes or viewing them automatic fader switchable use in combination w the above unit both units in excellent condition comes with all docs unregistered warranty cards j r music world sells these for and respectively i am asking for both units email me at pchang ic sunysb edu if you are interested c ommon pchang ic sunysb edu s ense state university of new york stony brook e ngineer
misc.forsale	info on ultrastor hd controller wanted hi netters does anyone know have any info on the ultrastor line of controller i m especially interested in the f and f scsi controllers please email any info asap i m building a system and that s one of the few conponents that is missing thanks tri
misc.forsale	box of chemicals for sale i m selling worth of chemicals for or i ll split it in two for dollars apeice aprox oz bottles will make a great chem set will pay shipping up to if really interested i will mail a partial list please contact by e mail only omar
misc.forsale	engagement ring give up diamond engagement ring k gold band point diamond appraised at dollars will sell for dollars appraisal available upon request send e mail to yb uafhp uark edu
misc.forsale	re for sale quicken for the pc in article pma hpk suntan ec usf edu boneham sunburn ec usf edu kevin boneham ch writes in article pgvp inn ej phakt usc edu khoh usc edu oliver muoto writes i have for sale quicken pc version that allows you to balance i assume you get new releases earlier than we do here last i saw version was the latest he is probably referring to the dos version the dos versions is up to like version i think the window version just came out recently so it is only up to like version or something c ommon pchang ic sunysb edu s ense state university of new york stony brook e ngineer
misc.forsale	re computer parts camcorder in article c z cf n cscns com zardox cscns com randie o neal writes mb and drives new planned on building machine but ran out of funds each drive carl what brand of drives are these do you have documentation i ll go shipping if you have documentation do not pay for floppy drives they are about new also you do not need documentation for floppies installation for these things are idiot proof just some advice c ommon pchang ic sunysb edu s ense state university of new york stony brook e ngineer
misc.forsale	re microsoft dos upgrade for sale in article hatton cgl ucsf edu hatton socrates ucsf edu tom hatton writes adn ritvax isc rit edu writes in article pctnfinn dp eve usc edu yuanchie eve usc edu yuan chieh hsu writes ms dos upgrade for sale best offer over opened unregistered so does anyone care to enlighten us whether dos is worth upgrading to how good is it s compression and can it be turned on off at will any other nice nasty features according to reports if you don t have dos yet and don t have any utilities qemm stacker pctools norton then dos may be worth it for people who have dos and some sort of utility dos doesn t offer much you d never know it from the usual hype that marketing is able to create however i installed dos last week and had nothing but trouble afterwards windows apps are hitting protection faults more than a kid can do to a pinata and it does not seem to like to work with ndos norton dos other probs include set pcplus d pcplus for procomm plus no longer works many of the little utilities to written for dos no longer works either mostly shareware i now have uninstalled dos and dos works just fine are there any apps that dos will be able to run that dos wont c ommon pchang ic sunysb edu s ense state university of new york stony brook e ngineer
misc.forsale	food coupons looking to save money i am your man i will mail you in food coupons for only or you will get twice the dollar amount of coupons so mail and get dollars in coupons sounds like a great deal well it is send sase to s elizabeth st salt lake city utah enclose money in form of a money order personally i would not trust a person to send coupons after money is sent well let me earn your trust send dollar and i ll send you your in store coupons then we ll talk more e mail enquiries to yb uafhp uark edu thank you john schiefer
misc.forsale	casio digital diary for sale casio digital diary electronic organizer sf k ram will hold approxmiately names phone numbers big line display year visible calendar schedule function memo bank telephone name number address storage calculator compact folding design fits in your pocket the above for it was originally purchased for over mail to gsfever okcforum osrhe edu if interested price does not include shipping
misc.forsale	re psychnet in article pfg innk skeena ucs ubc ca okabe unixg ubc ca ian okabe writes electronic networking for psychnet com professional psychology serving psychologists sychnet world wide whats with this psychnet thing its on just about everyones s posting no matter where they post from its getting very annoying ian t okabe okabe unixg ubc ca atmospheric sciences university of british columbia vancouver canada it s an experiment place a not so subliminal slightly cagey message in front of a viewer and see how long it takes to create a response and what was the response it was the same thing with the blow me message only it had a quicker response time and some unexpected responses along with the expectedly negative ones anyone see how long that took yours in jest tom t tom testagrossa e mail ttesta kali enet dec com us mail clarendon st apt fitchburg ma u s a phone work voicemail home ask me about my guitars
misc.forsale	parametric eq car hifonics ceres band parametric equalizer specs bands hz hz khz hz khz boost cut db thd less than size wxhxd mmx mmx mm this eq has three variable bands as indicated above with variable q it also has a subwoofer output with variable cutoff frequency i originally paid for the unit and used it for months before selling the car it is in excellent condition with all the wiring and hardware intact and manual in original box asking price holmertz pops navo navy mil
misc.forsale	dodge wagon for sale to dodge dart collectors i have a dodge th anniversary dart ci v wagon to turn into cash my asking price is although we can negotiate the car currently resides in union city california thats on the east side of the san francisco bay area in the state of california of the united states of america on the continent of north america of the planet earth third planetary body out from sol a mid range yellowish star in the western spiral arm of the milkyway galaxy toowhit north of silicon valley if interested pleas contact scott by the following means internet sbrogii tymnet com home answering machine business voice mail loud yell wave money out the window not recommended in downtown urban environment ps i also have a bmw r for sale
misc.forsale	macintosh ii cx for sale macintosh ii cx with mb hd mb ram and monochrome monitor ikegami is for sale asking no reasonable best offer will be rejected contact konrad at m mon frii
misc.forsale	for sale tr and mirage rack mount sampler for sale roland tr drum machine near mint condition no scratches fully operational sorry no manuals asking us shipping mirage rack mount sampler minor scratches around rack ear screws with advanced sampling option disks and both manuals it s a long story but i may have the turtle beach vision sample editing software for the ibm pc asking us shipping send all e mail requests to barsz bnr ca regards peter a barszczewski barsz bnr ca spirituality through technology bell northern research ltd montreal canada
misc.forsale	ms excel sdk for sale i have the following for sale absolutely new i won it at a raffle and have no use for it microsoft excel software development kit version for ms windows and the apple macintosh contains a page book by microsoft press floppy disks containing software sample code a poster of the api calls etc orig price is us i would like to sell it for the highest offer over shipping please email reply to attmail akachhy thanks avinash kachhy
misc.forsale	answering machine phone panasonic phone with answering machine looks like a brand new all basic answering machine function phone number memory recall function year old asking for interest please call me at alex choe
misc.forsale	chicago area roommate needed evanston non smoking roommate needed to sublet br in br carpeted apt in evanston il near the dempster el stop parking is available rent is mo utils avail may beg end aug entire apt available sept roommate is years old vegetarian non smoking female who works at northwestern no neat freaks please call denise w h dc nwu edu
misc.forsale	new cd disk s for cd disk users this is not a commercial ad i have alot of new cd disks if you have a cdrom and are interested in purchasing some of these disks please download the list mentioned below cd night owl s v download the file cdromcat zip or the freq the magic name of catalog craig landgraf buckwheats pleasure dome internet usenet landgraf p f n z fidonet org podnet fidonet itcnet kinknet sganet bbs number p s if you send me email with your home address i will mail you a list to your house the list is pages long this is if you do not have a computer that you can call and get the list faster
misc.forsale	forsale drum things cheap north heavy duty hi hat stand older stand but definately in working shape could use a little clean up comes with clutch and felts etc pearl bass drum pedal with felt beater honer cymbal stand needs some work on cymbal stem zildjian ride cymbal main line zildjian older ride cymbal ludwig snare stand okay snare stand not like a remo though shipping extra please email stephen m jones sdf system administrator smj sdf lonestar org cs e
misc.forsale	monitor add on card apple iie computer i need to sell the following items an apple iie computer includes baud modem columns zenith green monitor tons of software and manuals controller i o card a western digital wdat includes winchester controller floppy controller serial ports parallel port no docs but jumper settings are printed on the card an aamazing x dot pitch svga monitor interlaced unlimited colors includes documentation power cord and connecting cable must sell these items by may make me an offer on any of them cliff kaminsky cliff engin umich edu
misc.forsale	hewlett packard deskjet inkjet printer for sale for sale hewlett packard deskjet inkjet printer o perfect condition both internally and externally o comes with two full ink cartridges o less than six months old o comes with all original packaging manuals cables and software this is truly an excellent printer and is the low cost alternative to a laser printer it prints with the quality of a laser printer but for a fraction of both the inital cost and he long term cost that is replacement of ink cartridges as opposed to replacement of toner the printer prints at a maximum of d ots p er i nch d p i on many different types and sizes of paper including envelopes and transperencies printer prints in both landscape and portrait modes printer can accept up to two cartridges giving it things like more memory or additional fonts printer works excellently with windows and dos and brings truetype to its full potential i originally purchased the printer for make me an offer but i would prefer to stay in the range i will pay the shipping to anywhere in the continental u s a if you are interested please either leave me email or call kirk peterson at anytime thanks p s the printer will work with any computer that can accept a standard parallel or serial connection that is ibm amiga etc
misc.forsale	word processing utilities for sale these word processing utilities all include complete printed manuals and registration cards i need to get rid of some excess they re the latest versions i ve priced these programs at less than half the list price and significantly less than the cheapest mail order price around grammatik for windows top rated grammar checker helps you improve your writing by correcting grammar and usage mistakes now owned by wordperfect list sale grammatik for dos top rated grammar checker helps you improve your writing by correcting grammar and usage mistakes now owned by wordperfect list sale correct grammar for windows top notch grammar checker from wordstar list sale correct grammar for dos top notch grammar checker from wordstar list sale correct writing for windows online writing manual from wordstar with tips about correct use of punctuation capitalization compound words numerals bibliographies footnotes and more list sale random house webster s electronic dictionary thesaurus for windows unlike spell checkers provides online definitions when you re not sure of a word s meaning also has larger thesaurus than most word processors for finding just the right word list sale random house webster s electronic dictionary thesaurus for dos same functionality as windows version list sale word finder plus for windows huge online thesaurus with more than one million synonyms list sale random house encyclopedia for dos online encyclopedia that you can use without needing a cd rom drive easier to use and less expensive than a book based encyclopedia takes mb of hard disk space list sale headliner dos based database of great advertising and other headlines proverbs idioms song titles movie titles and so on great for advertising copywriters newspaper editors and others trying to come up with catchy phrases list sale writer s toolkit for windows amazing collection of seven different word processing utilities in one package includes encyclopedia great quotations dictionary of abbreviations dictionary with definitions thesaurus usage guide and grammar checker list sale if you re interested in any of these programs please phone me at philadelphia and i ll save the package for you reid goldsborough reidg pacs pha pa us
misc.forsale	utilities for sale these utilities all include complete printed manuals and registration cards i need to get rid of some excess they re the latest versions i ve priced these programs at less than half the list price and significantly less than the cheapest mail order price around pc tools for dos best selling utilities collections includes dos shell antivirus program backup program disk defragger memory optimizer remote communications link data protection and recovery utilities appointment book address book and more list sale norton backup for dos supports dos tape backup systems and lans twice as fast as backup in dos highly automated and customizable list sale qaplus top rated dos based systems diagnostics program more comprehensive than anything included in dos windows or utilities collections invaluable for determining sources of problems with ram video drives ports keyboard motherboard joystick mouse speaker and so on list sale if you re interested in any of these programs please phone me at philadelphia and i ll save the package for you reid goldsborough reidg pacs pha pa us
misc.forsale	os etc for sale these packages all include complete printed manuals and registration cards i need to get rid of some excess they re the latest versions i ve priced these programs at less than half the list price and significantly less than the cheapest mail order price around os can run windows dos and os programs superior stability compared to windows list sale norton commander for os provides better file management than os does alone graphical tree and file list drag and drop launch apps from customizable menu list sale if you re interested in any of these programs please phone me at philadelphia and i ll save the package for you reid goldsborough reidg pacs pha pa us
misc.forsale	new software for sale these programs all include complete printed manuals and registration cards i need to get rid of some excess they re the latest versions i ve priced these programs at less than half the list price and significantly less than the cheapest mail order price around microsoft entertainment pack volume one includes eight different windows based games including tetris taipei minesweeper tictactics golf cruel pegged and idlewild list sale just joking for windows database of jokes from wordstar can quickly find jokes for many different occasions useful for business writers speechwriters presenters and others more than jokes under topics can search by keyword and author list sale humor processor dos based database of jokes requires only kb of ram along with thousands of categorized jokes you can quickly find also includes an online tutorial for writing your own jokes with proven comedy forumulas list sale history of the world multimedia cd rom covering cave society to the present includes recordings of famous speeches from churchhill gandi and others list sale if you re interested in any of these programs please phone me at philadelphia and i ll save the package for you reid goldsborough reidg pacs pha pa us
misc.forsale	for sale waxworks pc game for sale waxworks by horrorsoft accolade by the same folks who brought you elvira i ii i played elvira i ii and think that horrorsoft has finally made a very playable game with waxworks the look and feel is roughly the same as in the elvira games though the real time fighting is a little easier to survive the first two games especially elvira ii jaws of cerberus made it very tough to stay alive and hit point restoring was very difficult this is not to say that waxworks is a walk in the park but it is quite fair in that there is always some weapon to be found that is quite effective or hint given as to the proper fighting strategy in one of the four wax works to be explored there is no fighting at all well almost none though all four contain moderately challanging puzzles the really interesting thing about this game is that it is really broken up into four seperate rpgs one for each of the four exhibits you must enter in starting each one your character is transported with no objects to use and experience level one exhibits traps you inside a multi level ancient egyptian pyramid which you must escape by fighting mapping and puzzle solving another exhibit traps you in a mine that has been taken over by creeping plant vines and pods while the local humans have been transformed into plant zombies this is a single level maze that requires you to rescue some humans kill the head plant alien and figuere out how to kill the very tuff plant zombies that are always showing up this is perhaps the most horrifying exhibit another exhibit puts you into jack the ripper england where you appear by the corpse of a fresh ripper victim and of course the police think you are responsible you must avoid police and angry mobs to unravel the mystery of the ripper and meet him face to face but first get a disquise the last exhibit pus you in a graveyard where most of the challenge is in learning to stop the almost indestructible zombies over all the vga graphics and music are very effective in setting a creepy tone for the game as was the case for the elvira games though gameplay is much improved and makes for a much more enjoyable game i heartily recommend it for rpg and horror fans all prices include shipping all games are in excellent condition unless otherwise stated us buyers only please all games will be shipped inside a box with packing insured priority usps all games include all original materials including box manual disks and registration unless otherwise noted the first responder offering asking price is guarenteed to get the game those just asking questions get no priority until they offer to buy the game lower offers may be considered assuming no other offers at asking price are made sam bauer hewlett packard co network test division smb col hp com colorado springs co
misc.forsale	zeos daughterboard of upgradeable for sale trade hi folks i have a daughter board for zeos which i want to upgrade to or so send me mail with you offer if you are selling or zeos daughterboard willing to buy my zeos daughterboard thanks murli murli ram murli cubix ent ohiou edu next mail ohio university murli bobcat ent ohiou edu athens
misc.forsale	re metal powder steel iron i just love these posts from the ex soviet union among the cars dinette sets video cameras etc every now and then an ad pops up for bee venom red oxide of mercury cobalt tons minimum order etc don t they have garage sales in russia
misc.forsale	printer paper tray i have a hewlett packard laserjet series ii paper tray for sale its letter size brand new in the box and never used i m asking bought new at ballard computer for please reply to jeffo at spooge u washington edu or
misc.forsale	squaw lift tickets available for each posting for a friend i do not have these tickets interested parties can call john at for more information there are three lift tickets and they are good for anytime this season at squaw valley ski resort doug fierro uts system software o case tools development fierro uts amdahl com
misc.forsale	for sale toyota pickup please do not respond directly to this account for sale blue toyota pickup truck with white blazer topper am fm casette a c cruise control great for camping trips new brakes master brake cylinder michelin tires shocks maintenance free battery clutch windshield wipers well maintained with all toyota parts all repairs done at the dealers very little rust body in good shape k miles asking if interested please contact ursula fritsch umf gene com please do not respond directly to this account rob mcnicholas technical computing services ee cs u c berkeley robm eecs berkeley edu voice fax
misc.forsale	chemicals for sale the chemicals are gone thanks for all the response omar
misc.forsale	re printing in article apr sarah albany edu me albnyvms bitnet writes advertises his printing business oh dear let me be the first on my block you have just violated one of the major shibboleths of the usenet groups you re not supposed to use a newsgroup to plug your own commercial enterprise of any kind people frequently get flamed for announcing they ve got a new book out i don t know whether this is an official usenet rule or just a long standing custom and it doesn t make much difference from a practical point of view so please don t do it again and all you others who are even now taking keyboard in hand to flame him off the face of the earth lay off he didn t know any better he does now dorothy j heydt uc berkeley cozzlab garnet berkeley edu disclaimer ucb and the cozzarelli lab are not responsible for my opinions and in fact i don t think they know i have any
misc.forsale	re catalog of hard to find pc enhancements repost andy sail stanford edu andy freeman writes in article c elme z unix portal com jdoll shell portal com joe doll wr the catalog of personal computing tools for engineers and scien tists lists hardware cards and application software packages for pc xt at ps class machines focus is on engineering and scien tific applications of pcs such as data acquisition control design automation and data analysis and presentation if you would like a free copy reply with your u s postal mailing address don t bother it never comes it s a cheap trick for building a mailing list to sell if my junk mail flow is any indication andy sent his address months ago perhaps we can get portal to nuke this weasal i never received a catalog either if that person doesn t respond to a growing flame then we can assume that we yall look forward to lotsa junk mail i don t want him nuked i want him to be honest the junk mail has been much more interesting than the promised catalog if i d known what i was going to get i wouldn t have hesitated i wouldn t be surprised if there were other folks who looked at the ad and said nope but who would be very interested in the junk mail that results similarly there are people who wanted the advertised catalog who aren t happy with the junk they got instead the folks buying the mailing lists would prefer an honest ad and so would the people reading it andy
misc.forsale	attention all neo geo owners read this hello neo geo owners and non owners who couldn t resist the title i was wondering if any of you out there want to trade or sell games i mean buying them from the stores can get kinda expensive is a little too much to be spending on each game but ahh the quality now i can get them for about but that s still a lot right now i have crossed swords magician lord baseball stars fatal fury nam i am interested in buying more titles if any of you have any interesting trade ideas please let me know thanks tom tomcat leland stanford edu
misc.forsale	pressure meter heise model a pressure meter this is a precision digit meter measuring psi absolute in psi increments case is in extremely good shape and can be used as a stand alone meter or panel mounted brass fitting looks like standard on back operates from vac i d like for it or make an offer it is a lot more useful to a lab than as an ersatz barometer which is what i ve been using it for dave medin phone w ssd networking h intergraph corp m s gd internet dtmedin catbyte b ingr com huntsville al uucp uunet ingr b catbyte dtmedin everywhere you look at least around my office the opinions expressed here are mine or those of my machine
misc.forsale	cheap airline ticket to l a wanted cheap airline ticket to l a on april tuesday from indi or chicago and return about in days wanted please phone or mail to chenmin sage cc purdue edu
misc.forsale	mother board for sale for sale dx motherboard for sale excellent condition less than one year old k cache expandable to k ram expandable to mb ami bios need to sell upgrading asking neg contact jared martin at or email at jaredjma mentor cc purdue edu
misc.forsale	shawnee on delaware poconos pa timeshare week for sale second week of january prime ski season at one of the largest poconos ski areas just north of allentown condo sleeps depending on how friendly you all are has hot tub deck easy access to parking lot and shuttle to slopes condo is a few miles from the slopes cost obro price based on what we paid for it used also and current market richr the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the university of north carolina at chapel hill the campus office for information technology or the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu or
misc.forsale	wanted tablehockey games hello i am looking for the coleco tablehockey games that were popular in the s the games that i seek have straight slots for the defenseman not the s shaped slots the players are attatched to rods operated with springs if you have a game or games that you would be willing to part with please send me an e mail message at u uicvm uic edu price is negotiable and i would also cover shipping if you are out of state i am part of a league that plays on a regular basis the cthl the chicago table hockey league and need a game to practice on also the league itself is always interested in purchasing games to expand itself thank you ken harris equipment to expand it s size
misc.forsale	re squaw lift tickets available for each tickets midweek are now down to they will be starting last week in april or maybe first week in may by the way the current conditions was there apr are great for spring skiing with excellent coverage most stuff open and no lift lines andrei
misc.forsale	bmw i for sale bmw i the original four door sports sedan arctic blue metallic with gold alloy plus wheels rial goodyear eagle gt racing tires mud snow rated liter hp fuel injected engine w stahl headers adjustable gas shocks all around koni byk speed stick wheel power disc brakes sunroof ps ac listen up installed hidden speaker stereo w subwoofer k miles yet much better condition than most cars w k meticulously maintained all records k mi oil changes faded paint on top otherwise excellent exterior and interior the car has required no major repair work in the more than ten years i have owned it it has never failed to start or broken down even in the coldest weather this has been an extraordinarily reliable and economical car and shows every sign of staying that way yet it is an absolute thrill to drive when you take it to secluded twisty mountain road i sell it now reluctantly since i just succumbed to the convertible craving and bought a new miata obo rich fozzard or richard fozzard serendipity empowers univ of colorado cires noaa r e fs broadway boulder co fozzard fsl noaa gov or
misc.forsale	madison wi summer sublet downtown furnished summer sublet may thru aug great location at n frances st johnson st across witte near nitty gritty near howard johnson near state street near south east dorms near university square near serf two bedroom your own spacious room the larger laundry available parking available bathroom kitchen large closet dual desks just pay for electricity month asking for whole summer send inquiries to howard moy cae wisc edu howard howard moy
misc.forsale	moving sale for sale dining table wooden with chairs dining table scandinavian style steel desk free if interested please call hemant betrabet
misc.forsale	sega genesis for sale w sonic month old sega genesis barely used one controller in original box with sonics and gets the whole bundle shipped to you turns out they re not as addictive when they re yours anyway mail me if you re interested in this marvel of modern technology andrew boyko aboyko dixie com
misc.forsale	kawai k way el cheapo buy or be sorry etc etc gotta pay my well bill eating is of mere passing interest in comparison kawai k synthesizer for if you act now cash only pleeze take delivery in berkeley call and leave name and number for me to call back and arrange this marvelous feast offer expires soon how soon soon believe it act now thank you for your support wheeze
misc.forsale	sipps memory forsale sipps for sale i have sipps for sale i upgraded a few systems memory so i don t need these no more they are x sipps ns x sipps ns meg total all for or meg for note sipps are gernally more expensive then simms these sipps are in good working condition buyer pay shipping handling if interested reply to minh wpi wpi edu minh pham e mail minh wpi wpi edu worcester polytechnical institute
misc.forsale	sale software packages pcanywhere antivirus deltagraph hello i have three software packages for sale the norton pcanywhere version for dos this software include host and remote software it can control both dos and windows both standard and enhanced modes activities registration card is enclosed price the norton antivirus for windows and dos version it can update virus information any time it also support networks registration card is enclosed price deltagraph professional for windows this is the best graphics presentation program i have ever seen registration card is enclosed reg price price thank you for your attention anthony lai
misc.forsale	books for sale cheap hi everyone here are some books for sale all prices are negotiable shipping fee is not included signals and systems alexander p poularik and samuel seely pws kent publisher old price new price probability an introduction samuel goldberg dover publisher old price new price digital image processing and computer vision r schalkoff wiley publisher old price new price digital image processing r gonzalz and p wintz addison wesley publisher old price new price sold x window system user guide for x r o reilly associate the best book of ms dos alan simpson sams old price new price elements of modern algebra hu holden day publisher old price new price symmetries asymmetries and the world of particles t d lee washington publisher old price new price elementary particles and the laws of physics the dirac memorial lectures cambridge publisher old price new price a brief history of time stephen w hawking bantam books paperback old price new price robert chong department of mechanical engineering the ohio state university email cychong magnus acs ohio state edu
misc.forsale	fax modem card wanted i am looking out for an inexpensive fax modem card for pc if you have one to sell please e mail gulshan garg thssgkg iitmax iit edu h
misc.forsale	unix pc software for sale greetings here is a list of items for the b which i am selling dbase iii full dbase iii multiuser development runtime for b microsoft basic interpreter gives megabytes ram available microsoft word full featured mouse based multiuser word processor microsoft multiplan nice multiuser spreadsheet program gss chart nice graphical program for creating business charts lpi c a robust c compiler i ll throw in lpi debug single step alter vars at t electronic mail very nice office based front end to mail i ll take or best offer for the whole bunch i bought all of these new in and paid over for these excellent programs i d rather sell them together but don t hesitate to make me an offer for one i d consider possible trades i m interested in the following b hardware ethernet card with or without software tape backup external expansion unit upgraded p motherboard or just info on who can do the p upgrades icus nd hard drive upgrade kit at t bct or terminals with the unixpc style keyboard make me an offer bob ames bob crl com ps i can get unix pcs with m drives and m motherboards loaded with m cnews smail trn rn elm nethack gzip hdb and a couple other things for about each plus shipping let me know if you re interested pps priam d m hard drives exactly same as maxtor but faster are on sale for thru a vendor in la number not handy write for info this is a very good price for these drives the largest fastest hds available for the unix pc note to fully use the entire m you ll need the p motherboard upgrade who does these and a wd
misc.forsale	re metal powder steel iron in article cup portal com mmm cup portal com mark robert thorson writes xref nntpd cxo dec com misc invest misc forsale path nntpd cxo dec com pa dec com e big mko dec com uvo dec com news crl dec com deccrl caen zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd hp com portal cup portal com mmm from mmm cup portal com mark robert thorson newsgroups misc invest misc forsale subject re metal powder steel iron message id cup portal com date thu apr pdt organization the portal system tm references acpdgohawa commed msk su lines i just love these posts from the ex soviet union among the cars dinette sets video cameras etc every now and then an ad pops up for bee venom red oxide of mercury cobalt tons minimum order etc don t they have garage sales in russia it really doesn t strike me as very funny it is rather indicative of what a crisis their economy is in i imagine they are in desparate need of markets to sustain industries and people which are nolonger under central control of the government jim rosenkranz rosen kranz enet dec com never try to teach a pig to sing it can t be done and it annoys the pig
misc.forsale	soft contact lens cleaning unit heater my girlfriend switched to gas permeable hard lenses and no longer needs a one year old soft contact lens cleaning unit it s one of those where you pop in the lens case filled with solution and the lenses press the lighted timer button and let it cook no stains of course if you ve owned one of these you understand maybe a little dust on the cover best cash offer or equivalent worth in used cd s or betamax tapes some blanks or a couple of pre recorded movies concerts gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
misc.forsale	forsale dynakit pas x tube pre amp dynakit pas x for sale it s a pure tube pre amp using two ax s in phono stage and also two ax s in line stage one x is used in power supply clean in and out neat workmanship works fine with good sound owner s manuel asking obo plus shipping contact harry if interested thanx
misc.forsale	re catalog of hard to find pc enhancements repost stuff deleted for example i subscribe to magazines abc news and xyz products i give my name as joseph x cool for the first and joe q cool for the nd when i get junk mail addressed to joseph x cool i know where they bought my name this doesn t help not getting junk mail but you at least know who s selling your name and if you ask companies to not sell your name to mailing lists tele marketeers they are not supposed to as in it s illegal and in case you haven t guessed i don t really use joe cool my company maintains a mailing list which is regularly rented for one time use by the major software companies the method you are using to seed your junk mail isn t really effective bulk mailers regulary either send their databases to be cleaned by the ncoa which if you ve moved recently will revert back to the original xxx cool and in large mailings there will likely be a dupe of you and they ll pick the first and use the others for future mailings btw our list is currently one of the hottest lists for actual buyers of a ms windows utility product in the range and is available through direct media in ct at per name please let your direct mail marketing rep know about this thanks ted matthew caprile hey i only speak for myself even i won t admit to the opinions expressed caprile apple com here so don t expect my employer to
misc.forsale	drafting machine for sale for sale precision drafting machine bruning ogp solid older model with spring loaded counter balance clamps on table without scales for right handed person make offer includes ups parcel post postage i m guessing that it s from the s or s a period well known for excellent drafting machine construction it s built with real metal parts not cheap modern plastic and it s painted the typical office grey popular in that period it s smooth working and each of the two arms on it measures roughly it has a dual clamp to enable you to clamp it on the edge or corner of a table rick inzero rochester cci rdi northern telecom ltd uunet ccicpg cci rdi rochester ny rdi cci com
misc.forsale	apple iigs i have a basic apple iigs system that i need to sell everything comes with original boxes and documentation and is in excellent condition make an offer i ll consider anything apple iigs meg drive applecolor rgb monitor keyboard mouse mousepad dustcovers baud applemodem random other worthless stuff here s a list of the games apps games applications battlechess system disk defender of the crown system tools iigs arkanoid ii wordperfect bubble ghost appleworks shadowgate writer s choice elite balance of power draw plus marble madness copy ii plus zany golf proterm communications software chessmaster if interested contact sunshine cco caltech edu
misc.forsale	forsale used guitar amp two years old crate guitar amplifier model g xl handles upto watts dual input two channels reverb three band eq distortion i am asking send me a mail to thssjxy iitmax acc iit edu if you are interested prices maybe negotiable
misc.forsale	cassettes for sale update hi there again i still have a few tapes left as before they are each postage paid multiple orders appreciated but not necessary package deals welcome thanks chris bray lewis huey sports hooters nervous night poison look what the cat dragged in hall oates big bam boom ratt out of the cellar quiet riot condition critical seger bob like a rock outfield play deep plant robert shaken n stirred journey raised on radio duran duran duran duran duran duran arena duran duran rio
misc.forsale	elvis autograph for sale elvis prestly autograph autogaph is one of two the othere being elvis s friend red west and were obtained by the seller in the spring of in jacksonville fla the afternoon following the incident when elvis collapsed during a concert at the gaterbowl in jacksonville request offers ellen t san jose ca
misc.forsale	dx mram kcache mhd vesa local bus motherboard mb ram k cache floppy mb hard drive ide controller hd fd s p g local bus mb svga video card svga monitor dpi mini tower key keyboard david tsao cstsao sam cs olemiss edu or benjamin chen
misc.forsale	marvel dc valiant image etc for sale updated april title price alpha flight wolverine appears double size jim lee s first work at marvel aliens st app aliens in comics st prnt may amazing spider man rd vulture intro new green goblin green goblin appears green goblin appears st appearance hobgoblin hobgoblin appears peter david script human torch r origin spiderman hobgoblin hobgoblin appears punisher hobgoblin appear spiderslayer appears kraven appears kraven appears todd mcfarlane hobgoblin vs green goblin venom appears todd mcfarlane art todd mcfarlane art silver sable paladin c america sabretooth appears red skull captain america hulk appears last mcfarlane punisher appears punisher appears hobgoblin appears intro cletus kassady carnage venom appears venom appears pages punisher darkbawk appear punisher appears punisher appears punisher appears punisher appears st app spider man holo c annual annual st solo venom story annual new warriors venom anne rice s vampire companion anne rice s vampire lestat archer and armstrong frank miller smith layton avengers st appearance x factor alpha flight appears pages new team alpha flight appears new team annual annual annual batman legends of the dark knight blue cover batman shadow of the bat still in polybag batman versus predator prestige edition predator prestige edition batman batman year one trade paperback st printing bloodshot chromium cover bwsmith cover poster daredevil origin bullseye ghost rider death s head early app frank miller art begins deathstalker appears frank miller art elektra nd appearance bullseye bullseye kingpin appear punnisher appears frank miller art punnisher appears frank miller art punnisher appears frank miller art wolverine appears darkhawk spider man and hobgoblin appear dark horse presents st app concrete st printing concrete appears annual aliens appear dazzler x men appear beast appears deathlok deathstroke the terminator st printing defenders intro new defenders double size x factor appears demon lobo appears lobo appears lobo appears eternal warrior miller cover fantastic four hulk vs the thing simonson art begins simonson art simonsom art simonson art simonson art art adams cover art wolverine ghost rider wolverine appear ghost rider wolverine appear pages simonson art simonson art simonson art fantastic four vs new warriors page th anniversary issue annual flash superman flash race ghost rider spider man hobgoblin cover and story spider man hobgoblin cover and story ghost rider and cable sam keith cover ghost rider and captain america fear guardians of the galaxy prism foil cover harbinger st appearance h a r d corps h a r d corps havok and wolvreine meltdown incredible hulk byrne art begins st app grey hulk since st mcfarlane issue grey hulk series begins st dale keown art in hulk green hulk appears keown art keown art keown art grey vs green hulk st all new hulk st prnt keown keown c a keown c a keown c a keown c a keown c a keown c a keown c a keown c a keown c a green foil stamped cover keown infinity gauntlet perez painted cover thanos thanos thanos john byrne s next men justice league america justice league quarterly justice society of america april kamandi origin kamandi kirby art kirby art kirby art kirby art last generation magnus robot fighter new direction logo begins marc spector moon knight ghost rider appears marvel comics presents wolverine silver surfer wolverine master of kungfu wolverine master of kungfu wolverine master of kungfu wolverine daredevil wolverine hulk wolverine submariner wolverine man thing man thing ant man man thing colossus black panther shanna black panther nomad ron lim art black panther ron lim art black panther rob liefeld art cyclops ron lim art black panther ron lim art black panther ron lim art black panther nth man havok blk panther black panther havok hulk black panther havok black panther havok black panther havok black panther havok erik larsen excalibur wolverine rob liefeld wolverine rob liefeld wolverine rob liefeld silver sable wolverine hulk jackson guice deathlok poison thor scarlet witch mark texiera ghost rider mark texiera ghost rider mark texiera ghost rider mark texiera ghost rider b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x dracula b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x b w smith weapon x st keith art and jae lee keith wolverine beast ghost rider cable wolverine ghost rider wolverine ghost rider maxx sam keith metropol ted mckeever mighty mouse moon knight nam frank castle punisher new mutants intro new warlock magus rob liefeld todd mcfarlane cover mcfarlane cover st app cable cameo rob liefeld nd cable rob liefeld rd cable rob liefeld sabretooth appears rob liefeld sabretooth appears rob liefeld cover rob liefeld wolverine vs cable rob liefeld wolverine vs cable rob liefeld x tinction agenda rob liefeld wolverine cable cover st app deadpool gideon domino st app feral of x force st app x force annual evolutionary war annual st liefeld art on new mutants annual annual nd app x force summer special art adams art olympians mcfarlane omega men st appearance lobo st full lobo story annual power man iron fist rd appearance sabretooth th appearance sabretooth power pack wolverine and sabretooth appear predator big game contains trading cards punisher wilce portacio punisher and captain america blood and glory punisher p o v starlin script wrightson art starlin script wrightson art starlin script wrightson art punisher war journal jim lee art ghost rider appears ghost rider appears punisher war zone die cut cover ragman pat broderick origin ragman rocketeer special edition dave stevens art shadowman simpsons comics and stories polybagged special ed solar man of the atom spectacular spider man punisher appears answer appears cloak and dagger appear cloak and dagger appear spot appears sabretooth appears sabretooth appears sabretooth appears dr octopus appears hobgoblin appears kraven appears kraven appears punisher appears punisher appears punisher appears st app new hobgoblin origin lobo bros punisher spider man gets new powers cosmic spider man appears st ed hologram hobgoblin annual mcfarlane story spider man gold edition direct sale regular edition green unbagged lizard calypso appear mcfarlane hobgoblin ghost rider appear hobgoblin ghost rider appear black costume returns black costume morbius appear mcfarlane liefeld art x force appears sinister six hulk appear hulk deathlok appear origin retold hologram cover star trek the next generation feb dc mini star trek the next generation oct dc comics strange adventures dozens but in varying high grades ask swamp thing john constantine appears annual tales of the teen titans deathstroke app orogin terminator dark horse terminator secondary objectives terminator judgement day thor mutant massacre x factor sabretooth app eric masterson becomes new thor warlock and the infinity watch starlin scripts gamora vs thanos web of spider man thunder appears magma appears hobgoblin wolverine appear origin rose hobgoblin appears hobgoblin appears green goblin as super hero green goblin as super hero rose hobgoblin story rose hobgoblin story rose hobgoblin story rose hobgoblin story hologram cover polybagged annual werewolf by night nd appearance moon knight moon knight appears wolverine before claws st battle with sabretooth sabretooth claims to be wolverine s dad sabretooth proven not to be his dad sabretooth wolverine saga concludes wolverine mini series miller art wonder woman return of animal man annual x factor sabretooth appears sabretooth appears sabretooth appears x tinction agenda jim lee cover whilce portacio art begins whilce portacio art last old team issue annual new warriors x force appear x force signed by liefeld bagged x force card signed by liefeld bagged shatterstar card signed by liefeld bagged deadpool card signed by liefeld bagged sunspot gideon bagged cable card x men mutant massacre intro marauders mutant massacre marauders appear wolverine battles sabretooth wolverine battles sabretooth art adams cover fall of the mutants inferno rob liefeld art all new x men begin jim lee art series begins jim lee art last jim lee art new x men team st printing x o manowar all comics are in near mint to mint condition are bagged in shiny polypropylene bags and backed with white acid free boards shipping is for one book for more than one book or free if you order a large enough amount of stuff i am willing to haggle i have thousands and thousands of other comics so please let me know what you ve been looking for and maybe i can help some titles i have posted here don t list every issue i have of that title i tried to save space geoffrey r mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department of psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university of florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
misc.forsale	color tv san diego color tv san diego mesa college area emerson m r w high tech square screen best price you features timer sleep feature for auto shut on off can find for a fully cable ready w all coaxial video audio jacks inch color tv mts multichannel sound jack for processing stereo or bilingual channels firm key remote includes review recall sleep features tel please reply to lcornel eis calstate edu for fastest response louis louis cornelio genie l cornelio the better the technology louis netlink cts com the less efficient the human use of it
misc.forsale	auction marvel dc valiant image dark horse etc i am auctioning off the following comics these minimum bids are set below what i would normally sell them for make an offer and i will accept the highest bid after the auction has been completed title minimum current alpha flight jim lee s first work at marvel aliens st app aliens in comics st prnt may amazing spider man intro new green goblin amazing spider man st appearance hobgoblin archer and armstrong frank miller smith layton avengers st appearance x factor bloodshot chromium cover bwsmith cover poster daredevil frank miller art begins dark horse presents st app concrete st printing h a r d corps incredible hulk st app grey hulk since incredible hulk st mcfarlane issue incredible hulk grey hulk series begins incredible hulk st dale keown art in hulk incredible hulk st all new hulk st prnt keown marvel comics presents wolverine silver surfer maxx limited ashcan copies exist blue cover new mutants mcfarlane cover st app cable cameo new mutants st app x force new mutants annual st liefeld art on new mutants omega men st appearance lobo omega men st full lobo story power man iron fist rd appearance sabretooth th appearance sabretooth simpsons comics and stories polybagged special ed spectacular spider man st app new hobgoblin star trek the next generation feb dc mini star trek the next generation oct dc comics web of spider man hobgoblin wolverine appear web of spider man origin rose hobgoblin appears wolverine before claws st battle with sabretooth wolverine sabretooth claims to be wolverine s dad wolverine sabretooth proven not to be his dad wolverine sabretooth wolverine saga concludes wolverine mini series miller art wonder woman return of animal man x force signed by liefeld bagged x force card x force signed by liefeld bagged shatterstar card x force signed by liefeld bagged deadpool card x force signed by liefeld bagged sunspot gideon all comics are in near mint to mint condition are bagged in shiny polypropylene bags and backed with white acid free boards shipping is for one book for more than one book or free if you order a large enough amount of stuff i am willing to haggle i have thousands and thousands of other comics so please let me know what you ve been looking for and maybe i can help some titles i have posted here don t list every issue i have of that title i tried to save space geoffrey r mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department of psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university of florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
misc.forsale	cobra gtl ssb cb for sale well i have it forsale again the last deal didn t work out and i lowered the price again cobra gtl single side band w mike or best offer dave cal poly life liberty and the slo ca pursuit of land speed records autobahn commuters
misc.forsale	keyboards drives radios for sale hello i have these items for sale terms are ups cod or prepayment by money order keyboards for ibm compatibles mitsumi mb floppy disk drive sony srf m digital am fm stereo walkman the drive cost me the keyboards were each and the sony radio cost i will sell for the best offers thank you buchanan in fear the goverment that fears your guns without the nd amendment we cannot guarantee ou r freedoms aj cleveland freenet edu
misc.forsale	ti procalc modules for sale texas instruments ti procalc new in box w manuals also texas instruments ti statistics library module for procalc new in box w manual and texas instruments ti chemical engineering module for procalc new in box w manual all for shipping contact geary morton ginkgo uncecs edu phones h w
misc.forsale	chemlab eyeofthebeholder cluebook ethernettransceiver nintendocontrol i have the following items for sale the highest bid for each to arrive in my email box by pm edt wednesday april gets the item skillcraft senior chemlab set safe for ages and up used little bottles of different chemicals plastic balance alcohol lamp test tube litmus paper manual with over experiments shipping will be added to your bid eye of the beholder ii fun game for the ibm pc in original box with original media and manual shipping will be added to your bid clue book for eye of the beholder ii solve your dilemmas in a hurry and find all the loot shipping will be added to your bid free shipping on this item if you bid highest on this and item ethernet transceiver st with lanview aui to ohm coaxial works fine has nifty blinking leds for send receive collision power etc built in t includes one ohm terminator shipping will be added to your bid super nintendo super controller auto repeated fire hands free continuous fire slow motion accomplished by automatically pausing unpausing add to a one controller console to allow two players shipping will be added to your bid be sure to include a shipping address with all bids be sure to include an email address with all bids send bids to battle cs utk edu david battle you will be informed by email if your bid is the highest by pm edt wednesday april items will be shipped us postal service first class cod on thursday morning a money order for your bid plus the indicated shipping amount will be needed to receive the item please keep this fact in mind when bidding david battle cs utk edu
misc.forsale	airline ticket washington dc champaign il for sale i am selling a one way ticket from washington dc to champaign il the home of the university of illinois am willing to offer a good price if you are interested please email me at eshneken uiuc edu thanks ed
misc.forsale	big block dodge carburetor napa remanufactured large barrel carburetor for big block dodge part new in box w manifold gasket retail napa price your price shipping contact geary morton ginkgo uncecs edu phones h w
misc.forsale	infinity rs x speakers for sale brand new i have a pair of car speakers for sale they are brand new still in box and plastic wrap i got them at highland s going out of business sale just yesterday however they won t fit my car s rear deck because it s not the right size so i am trying to sale them here infinity rs x three way freq resp k hz power capacity watts per channel sensitivity db spl w m impedance ohms mouting depth list price stereo store tax mail order catalog price s h my price obo shipping please e mail me at fang en ecn purdue edu or call me at michael wen cheng fang
misc.forsale	monitor tracy your monitor is on its way mike damico
misc.forsale	k fax modem for sale a slightly used less than two months old suprafaxmodem is for sale it comes with latest rom h communication software fax software original manuals and the original registration card here are some specs model supfaxv bis description suprafaxmodem v bis type internal data speed bps data upto bps with v data compression protocols bell a ccit v v v bis v v bis v v bis mnp mnp fax bps send receive fax class commnads group iii compatible transmission v v v ter other non volatile memory autoanswer autodial tone or pulse extended at commands and result codes includes diagnostics phone jacks subscriptions to free online services year warranty asking neg s h if interested please e mail thanks
misc.forsale	dx intel cpu chip for upgraded my friend s dx and have the chip for sale dx intel cpu chip first us shipping will get the chip or you can make the offer if you don t like the price thanks
misc.forsale	brand new software packages for sale looking for people to buy brand new software packages including microsoft windows harvard graphics pagemaker paradox lotus etc at off list price e mail immediately to ergo wam umd edu with name phone email address and software names
misc.forsale	top of the line jvc portable disc player for sale i have used jvc s top of the line portable cd player for three months now i have mostly used it in my car on long trips so it has less than hours of use on it the unit is one of the best that i have seen and listened to but i am going to part with it to install a disc changer in my car features include hz hz rechargeable nicad batteries wireless remote control ac adaptor headphones carrying belt and case digital band graphic eq with spectrum analyzer presets user programmable rca connections and cord jvc compulink capability cord included programmable from remote intro random repeat playback i will include a discwasher tm power converter to convert an automobile s v dc to the v dc that the unit requires i had to buy this one because it was the only one that fits jvc makes a unique connection that cannot be found at radio shack etc i paid for the disc player and another for the power converter i will sell the disc player alone for or both items for send replies to harrij rpi edu or jon
misc.forsale	dayna etherprint base t new cheap posting for a friend contact directly or leave e mail and i can forward brand spanking new still in original package never opened dayna etherprint t rj connector to support base t compliant networks connect localtalk compatible printers directly to ethernet networks will work with any localtalk compatible network printer such as laserwriter imagewriter ibm personal page printer ii hewlett packard deskwriter hewlett packard laserjet printer family qume printers can daisy chain a maximum of localtalk devices such as workstations modems printers to a single etherprint device support appletalk phase and phase protocols shipping cheap new without base t in mac world contact kam poon at after pm est
misc.forsale	mac monitor wanted wanted color monitor suitable for use on a macintosh centris i am planning on purchasing one of these machines soon and don t want to have to pay full price for a new monitor when a used one will do me just as well if you have one you d like to part with please email me with the specs and price thanks roger rsjoyce eos ncsu edu
misc.forsale	forsale new hp sx with software i bought my hp sx calculator a month ago used once but put it back in the box includes manual and i m including about high density disks packed with dozens if not hundreds of games and programs all you need to do is buy the pc cable for around bucks so you could use the software shipping included or best offer thanx l
misc.forsale	wanted memphis sublet non smoking normal law student needs furnished place to live in memphis this summer i ll be working at a firm downtown and will have to pass the bar character examination so you don t have to worry about your stuff being broken or stolen call chris at or leave e mail
misc.forsale	for sale laptop hd m ram for sale compudyne sxl laptop meg hd meg ram fd vga monochrome grey scale math coprocessor asking or best offer must sell soon do not reply to this email address call johnny at email phd cz gsbacd uchicago edu darin k fox b a j d are you master of your univ of ill graduate school of domain library and information science seinfeld
misc.forsale	re forsale men without hats folk of the s part iii vinyl grinning evil death mute bigwpi wpi edu wrote men without hats folk of the s part iii vinyl anyone out there who is willing to part with their copy of men without hats pop goes the world album on vinyl or perhaps cd please contact me we wish to purchase it o andrew tigress equinox gen nz o u it s late again o tea and lemmings please o
misc.forsale	terminal forsale 
misc.forsale	terminal for sale i have a vt and vt compatible terminal with external hyess modem amber screens keyboard cable make an offer
misc.forsale	gre gre economics test books for sale gre test aids for sale cliffs gre preparation guide c full length practive tests w answers and explanations also includes test taking strategies by the same people who do cliffs notes gre economics test by the research and education association revised edition includes full length exams with detailed explanations and solutions to each question pages practicing to take the gre economics test by ets includes an official full length gre economics test from and aswers included but no explanations practicing to take the gre general test no by ets includes three official gre general tests from w answers but no explanations and one additional gre general test complete with explanations to answers shipping is extra buy everything for and i cover the shipping keith r frederick happiness is our moral purpose if you see dr fu manchu kill him scalawag carson u washington edu reason is our only absolute i m not a number i m a free man cis uwid cornell here i come
misc.forsale	speakers for sale for sale bose a subwoofer month old advent minis months old email offers to craigb rpi edu
misc.forsale	math copro sale trade i am looking for a math coprocessor for a mhz should be a or i also have a sx for sale or trade tnx jim st b streader on the cutting edge of software evolution pics online multiuser system hst v massive file collection over files online newsgroups
misc.forsale	software sale hi i have the following software forsale microsoft ms dos dd this is a good buy for those who don t need all the utils in dos accolade hardball ii dd good arcade baseball game graphics sound are pretty good has the ability to make schedules and edit player stats accolade the third courier hd adventure spy type game ega earl weaver dd good arcade strategy type baseball game you have ability to play for league play i have mlb stats for and ega stormovik su soviet attack fighter dd good fighter simulation various missions and levels of play sierra thexder firehawk arcade shoot em up type game nice music and sound effects virgen scrabble computer version of the popular board game i m willing to negotiate on the prices prices do not include shipping shipping costs will be split drop me a line roberto alvarez ud ndsuvm programmer analyst ud vm nodak edu university of north dakota adrxa undjes
misc.forsale	jazz cd sale trade i have an unopened cd called bird the original recordings of charlie parker it has on it among others miles davis dizzy gillespie red rodney thelonious monk and lester young i would be willing to sell it to the highest bidder or else to trade it for another jazz cd that i would be interested in joe
misc.forsale	wholesale tv sets we are representing some chinese tv manufacturers who want to wholesale their products to latin american countries we are looking for brokers agents who can help us products include both color and black white tvs from to if interested please e mail or fax to mr z ho at usa for more information or inquiries good commission
misc.forsale	ticket san francisco philadelphia one way ticket return leg of roundtrip ticket for female traveler san francisco st louis philadelphia may friday leaves sfo am arrives phila pm or best offer return e mail or call home office
misc.forsale	re photogrammetric camera hello while refurbishing our observatory i came across the above mentioned camera it was manufactured by the instrument corporation of florida now for my questions does anyone have any knowledge of this equipement does anyone know of the company phone numbers are there any others out there i need some parts any responces are greatly appreciated take care jamie jf adx adelphi edu
misc.forsale	re cellular phone portable for sale in article cup portal com mmm cup portal com mark robert thorson writes i offer shipment at seller s expense payment as personal check sent by u s mail within hours after receiving goods i reserve the right to return the goods at my expense if i find them to be defective or otherwise unacceptable when i receive them either the merchandise or the check would be mailed within hours mark thorson i hope you realize that for a cellular phone you need to subscribe to a cellular carrier and it usually takes at least one working day before the service is available to you only then you can find out whether the phone is working tin
misc.forsale	intel fax modem for sale i have an intel satisfaxtion modem internal for sale it runs at baud data mode and up to baud as a class fax modem it transmits up to baud v and receives up to baud v ter the modem has all original manuals and comes with software icluding intel s satisfaxtion and faxability as well as crosstalk communicator i have used this modem less than an hour it came with my computer and i already had another one i would like to ask for this modem but will entertain all serious offers please email to jmu acpub duke edu thanks
misc.forsale	sx motherboard case mouse hello i have a motherboard and a case for sale as a package both of them came from a compuadd computer i bought last august and am presently upgrading here are the specs motherboard cyrix sl mhz microprocessor chips and technology chipset scatsx v slslc simm banks for a maximum of megs of ram built in floppy and hard drive controllers built in ports parallel serial and pin built in paradise svga controller with meg of ram windows drivers inc can do up to x colors based on the western digital wd c chip math co processor slot bit expansion slots and bit expansion slots case low profile desktop very nice grey color watt power supply room for floppies plus hd mouse button microsoft compatible grey color matches case all original manuals and documentation video drivers etc are included you are probably wondering why i must sell the case with the motherboard it is simply because the case is custom made for this particular board and you would be hard pressed to fit another mb in it however the case and this motherboard were made to go together and fit perfectly as you can see since this board includes drive controllers and a video controller you can save some money by buying this unit and not a mb where you would need to get io cards video card and drive controllers its just a lot more convenient on the whole i would like to ask about for this whole package i think this is a fair price given the facts that it includes a video card and drive controllers io ports all you need to do is add drives a monitor ram and a keyboard also keep in mind that it isn t a generic board but from compuadd i also will entertain all serious offers please email at jmu acpub duke edu thanks j
misc.forsale	hds and other computer parts for sale wanted for sale fujitsu meg scsi drive maxtor meg esdi drive maxtor meg esdi drive toshiba meg ide drive xt case motherboard dtc bit mfm hd fd controler all items are used in full working condition and have a warranty for one week unless otherwise specified all prices are negotiable shipping not included wanted developers kit for sb svga moniters two of them carl a merritt bromgrev rahul net
misc.forsale	lots of neat ibm clone stuff for sale complete dx mhz system for sale svga card w color tatung vga monitor s p floppies and watt power supply meg ram installed meg ide ms hard drive best offer bits and pieces a ide controller card b internal baud modem c dx mhz cpu d megs simm memory e standard vga card panasonic kxp wide carriage pin printer brand new condition comes with plenty o ribbons parallel and serial ports nice crisp output all items are in beautiful condition all fully functional willing to provide net references if needed best offers on all items snag em thanks for your time ciaran ciaran foley cfoley bonnie uci ics edu office
misc.forsale	new aircraft tu m dj subject new aircraft tu m for leasing set spare parts category offers to leasing headline new aircraft tu m mr director agabalaevich btw are these guys out of their minds or was our propaganda so effective that they believe some netters could actually buy such stuff and land in their driveway too much soda pop too quick go look up tu m it should be in most airliner hand books dj sgt d j morton environmental resource sciences hastings and prince edward regiment trent university peterborough ontario k j b canada dj there are a few things wrong with the potential sale of this dj aircraft dj there is starting to be a glut of new aircraft on the market dj airlines are taking delivery then mothballing their new dj planes dj unless the fuel efficiency is better than the airbus or dj boeing this plane is not economically feasible for the dj major players airlines unless the price is real cheap and dj you have an owner that doesn t care about fuel economy saudi dj family maybe sales ought to be pretty glim ummm i d be surprised if you couldn t find a gov t aid program to subsidize and or underwrite the lease that could make it quite an attractive arrangement bizarre yes impossible not really life is like an analogy yeah that s the ticket
misc.forsale	forsale norman rockwell okay okay norman himself isn t actually for sale but i have two saturday even post s both of which have norman rockwell illustrations on the front cover october with candidate kennedy on campaign has obviously a norman rockwell of kennedy on the cover november with candidate nixon on campaign and here we have nixon he s not a crook these are both in very good condition let me know if you re interested and to what tune todd janson no group moscow idaho
misc.forsale	i want your sx or dx chips i am in the market for a couple of intel chips please let me know if you have one or more for sale i am interested in both sx and dx models but they must be intel email me at bitzm columbia dsu edu mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research and development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet s sdnet bitnet
misc.forsale	final public dragon magazine update last chance for public bids this is the final public update to my dragon magazine auction if there are no new bids then the current bids stand like that s gonna happen after this any updates will be by e mail only the entire auction will end as soon as the bids stop coming in so if you want to get in on this be sure to bid now all bids must be made in at least cent increments buyer will pay shipping unless you have any particular fancy it will be us mail th class special with lots of padding all dragons are bagged the condition of them vary quite a bit so i ve come up with my own condition system some dragons may be missing items like the inserts if you have any questions feel free to ask condition ratings usually this is just an evaluation of the cover as most of the material inside is in great shape excellent ie as you find them in the store very good still in great condition but can tell it s been boughten good on down the line very fair fair indicates lots of use but still decent poor indicates the material inside may be damaged usually by scissors a by the condition indicates that something from the magazine is missing usually the insert i ll post another public update sometime this weekend which will be the final public posting after which the auction will be by e mail until the bidding stops again if you have any questions ask away arrow fair top secret module missing bard tunes real maps tn de good forest of doom module detached but included inner planes ykchev good combat computer missing dragons tn de good vg monsters aquatic ad d module detached but included language lesson geoffrey good vg top secret module detached but included magic resistance mayla fair high level ad d module detached but included poison material spell components uccxkvb very fair baton races game insert missing spell research tn de good vg babba yagga s hut module detached but included unarmed combat geoffrey fair cover missing twofold talisman module squidly good twofold talisman module clerics squidly good top secret module wildernes geoffrey good elefant hunt insert missing falling damage marvel phile geoffrey good creature catalog missing shields sci fi tn de good ranger changes creature catalog ii detached but included geoffrey fair cover missing into the forgotten realms module detached but included ykcheu fair th anniversary dragons mutant manual uccxkvb poor cover missing treasure trove ii some pictures cut out thedm good poster missing city beyond the gate module detached but included raised dragon texture on cover geoffrey fair cover missing creature catalog iii detached but included geoffrey fair cover missing valley of earth mother middle level module detached but included geoffrey fair cover loosly attached unearth arcana update missing future of ad d centaur papers geoffrey fair unearth arcana update missing geoffrey fair vf marvel module thieves cover detached but included geoffrey fair ad d module invisibility cover back cover detached but included uccxkvb fair cover on variations of paladins more skills rangers ykcheu good vg variations of paladins more skills for rangers arrow fair cover missing dragons of glory supplement questionaire geoffrey good mutant manual ii environmental effects cover taped reinforced thedm very good mutant manual ii environmental effects ykcheu good customizing d d classes agent poster geoffrey very fair customizing d d classes agent poster missing geoffrey very good house on the frozen lands module th anniv squidly very good house on the frozen lands module th anniv geoffrey good murder mystery ad d module ykcheu very good ultimate article index mesozoic monsters mayla very fair elven cavalier remorhaz witch npc class ykcheu good theives harpies snakes squidly good vg d ship cardboard insert wild animals dr who uccxkvb good vg dice odds creative campaigns sage advice bazaar geoffrey good tournaments competitions nibar s keep game uccxkvb vg ex april fool s issue uccxkvb excellent oriental adventures cardboard castle insert geoffrey excellent th aniversary african beasts druids uccxkvb very good magic and wizardry thedm very good magic and wizardry arrow excellent aerial adventures nd edition aire uccxkvb excellent aerial adventures nd edition aire geoffrey very good clay o rama chivalry quasi elementals geoffrey vg ex clay o rama chivalry quasi elementals uccxkvb vg ex undead uccxkvb very good fighters fvpmantel good king s table insert game fvpmantel excellent demi humans uccxkvb vg ex the arcane arts tfpayn excellent deepearth arrow vg ex deepearth uccxkvb very good orcwars board game missing arrow very good berserkers spies roman gods marvel index geoffrey very good berserkers spies roman gods marvel index fvpmantel vg ex anniversary dragons tbh very good archers space sage advice uccxkvb very good archers space sage advice tbh very good cities urban adventures tbh excellent wilderness arrow very good horror haloween uccxkvb very good pages from the mages uccxkvb excellent clerics healers tbh good humanoids tbh very good ad d nd edition preview uccxkvb very good dm s issue uccxkvb very good poster missing castles thedm very good poster missing anninversary dragons tbh excellent magus board game magic tbh excellent fighting deck of many things insert tn de excellent no particular feature tn de excellent horror halloween issue tn de excellent oriental adventures eastern tn de good underdark poster missing is inside slight crumple on cover only noticable under inspection tn de very good gods tn de good vg poster dragonlance story war tn de excellent faeries dungeon module tn de very good buck rogers thedm very good th anniversary dragons uccxkvb excellent spelljammer poster missing kohlmaas good vg urban adventures ad d trading card insert missing uccxkvb very good dm issue tn de good haloween poster missing thedm excellent monsterous compendum insert magic tn de very good oriental adventures tn de vg ex sea undersea tn de excellent sci fi other games dino wars insert missing tn de excellent nature wilderness uccxkvb very good slight crease of back cover misc items featured thedm good slight crease in cover dragon kings game insert dragons th anniversary issue uccxkvb excellent missing poster trading cards argh cfrye excellent underdark hachiman excellent dark sun intravai excellent horror intravai excellent world building campaign help tn de excellent elves giant poster inside tn de very good calender poster dm help gunpowder too intravai excellent fighters the fighter class tn de excellent gencon form magic items featured tn de excellent calendar poster mages sorcerors tn de excellent anniversary issue dragons tn de excellent non player character enhancement tn de excellent dark sun campaign monsters dark sun geoffrey excellent haloween horror tn de excellent wilderness outdoors if you notice any errors please let me know other than slight name misspellings if it s close to your name that s you
misc.forsale	boss guitar pedal for sale one boss turbo overdrive pedal for guitar bass or keyboards or best offer thanks respond to hw or call harry
misc.forsale	dbase iv for sale price dropped dbase iv ver disks manuals still shrinkwrapped and all registration materials present asking
misc.forsale	pc stuff forsale i have the following items for sale buyer pays the shipping costs hardware is new and unused unless marked otherwise all software includes original disks and manuals no reasonable offers refused send offers questions to cpc po cwru edu hardware hercules graphics card mono graphics and printer ports hercules color card color graphics and printer ports teac mb floppy drive doesn t work sold as is for reapir or parts ibm async card serial card for pc xt at machines comes with support software kraft kc joystick works with pc compatibles and apple ii series not mac k floppy disks over bulk grade disks floppy disk storage boxes each holds disks one has a lock on it software microsoft macro assembler and update large manual and tutorial included sideways rotates wide spreadsheets degrees to print on page games wolfpack wwii submarine simultaion space station oblivion arcade style game similar to spectre demon stalkers dungeon game like gauntlet zork ii moonmist ballyhoo infocom adventure mystery games jack nicklaus unlimited golf and course design excellent golf game war in middle earth similar to d d games based on tolkien s the hobbit sargon excellent chess game play against someone or against computer silent service ii submarine simulation charles p cox jr computer engineering case western reserve university cpc po cwru edu
misc.forsale	for for sale with vga color monitor dual floppy vga card with mb on board joystick mouse mb ram no hard drive for only respond quickly orion auld we are only fabulous if you re not part of the solution beasts after all you re part of the precipitate john ashberry
misc.forsale	joe venuti record wanted if anyone has joe venuti s record fiddle on fire and would like to sell it please contact me richard j brooks el cerrito ca internet rbrooks eis calstate edu compuserve internet compuserve com
misc.forsale	honda accord honda accord for sale miles all highway miles excellent condition white ex model loaded or best offer call tom h w
misc.forsale	re cellular phone portable for sale i hope you realize that for a cellular phone you need to subscribe to a cellular carrier and it usually takes at least one working day before the service is available to you only then you can find out whether the phone is working tin not true dial and listen to the recording if you get it then your phone was recognized by the network you wouldn t be able to dial a real number yet of course mark bramwell ve pzr located in sunny london ontario internet mark ardsley business uwo ca ip address packet ve pzr ve gyq uwo phone
misc.forsale	texas star dx linear amplifier or tornado linear looking for an amateur radio operator that needs a variable power linear amplifier for mhz looks and works like new runs off v for mobile use input watts output watts am watts pep ssb i need out of it if that s too much i also have a tornado that takes w in and w out for reply with your callsign address and phone number for verification of license prices do not include shipping packaging darrek kay kayd prism cs orst edu kb rvd
misc.forsale	trade my k modem for your pc xt trade your old pc for my new modem modem comes with coupond good for travel to from europe v bis modem modem features mnp to compression error correction v bis to compression error correction ccitt v bis compatible k bps ccitt v compatible k bps ccitt v bis compatible k bps at command set compatible compatible with ibm pc xt at s and compatibles bundled with communications software pc bus interface two rj c connectors phone and line e mail danj holonet net
misc.forsale	st tos and sf movie videotapes beta for sale trade repost nyamane nyx cs du edu norm yamane writes i have the following videos for sale all have been viewed once and are in good condition star trek tos collector s edition all episodes tapes asking for the lot i ve got episodes left on beta for sale at us each neg or for trade for for movie on beta or a used cd or a package deal for or whatever you care to propose in trade e g all for a set of good stereo headphones e g sony v or v an apple iwii sheet feeder a good used fm cassette stereo walkman or a hotel coupon s for free stays fob new york city guests coming the remaining collection is as follows charlie x dagger of the mind miri shore leave the alternative factor operation annihilate who mourns for adonais numbers indicate episode numbering on the tape boxes for those who are keeping track of what episodes they re missing in that manner rsvp for summaries if necessary the tapes are all in excellent condition in the original packaging all have been played at least once but most have been played only once and none have been played more than twice running time min ea unedited uncut store bought originals unlike those in syndication all have incredible beta hifi sound i also have the following sf and horror movies on beta as well us negotiable or trade for swap for movie on beta or a used cd the bride sting jennifer beales buck rogers conquers the universe buster crabbe constance moore rsvp for my larger beta movies music trade list or find it on misc forsale gld ps for those of you who may wonder beta is alive as a pro hobbyist format there s life beyond the corner video store je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
misc.forsale	nec multisync plus for mac pc nec multisync plus model jc vma x shipping price is frim do not send me an emai if your offer is less than my asking thank you yuesea
misc.forsale	re trade my k modem for your pc xt email your replies to danj holonet net
misc.forsale	new computer books for sale hi i have several computer related books for sale they are all new unused and hence in excellent condition the subjects include programming languages c c lisp prolog operating systems unix dos windows x windows lan ai and expert systems if you are interested pls contact me at parikhma ucunix san uc edu thanks m parikh
misc.forsale	wanted hp scanjet and adf i need some used scanners i m limiting my selection to hp models with document feeders i think this means the scanjet plus and the scanjet iic so if you have one of these and want to sell it please tell me kyler p s i need only one with a mac interface the others are for ibm pc compatibles
misc.forsale	adlib sound board for sale i have an adlib sound board for sale it includes the original disks and i ll throw in a windows wav sound file driver for those of you that are using your pc speaker for games this will be a much welcomed board for your pc includes shipping to your home or office email bitzm columbia dsu edu mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research and development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet s sdnet bitnet
misc.forsale	laserdisks forsale the following laserdisks are in used but like new condition category title price horror rabid grannies a blood spattered tale of two little old ladies who open a surprise package from hell clv side cav min horror forbidden world subject is half human and one of the researchers is the father roger corman prod clv min horror horror planet an alien creature has been waiting for a million years to breed and its time has come clv min horror witchtrap and in the upstairs shower we have the sexy ms ginger kowowski and this is where all the chillingly frightful fun comes to a head clv min murder bikini island swimwear illustrated needs a cover girl and the competition is fierce very fierce clv min comedy hysterical it s a blend of timeless farce contemporary satire nonsensical sight gags and dead people singing and dancing hudson brothers clv min comedy hollywood hot tubs valley girl crystal is back in another superheated frolic through those hollywood hot tubs clv min comedy beverly hills brats scooter s in trouble now his kidnappers don t take credit cards martin sheen clv min comedy transylvania the good citizens of transylvania invite you to this the most frighteningly funny event of the year ed begley jr jeff goldblum clv min comedy meet the hollowheads makes the married with children gang look sane just say no to butt polish clv min comedy don t tell mom the babysitter s dead no rules no curfews no nagging no pulse home alone times christina applegate clv min animated popeye at sea hilarious cartoon adventures on the high seas clv min color musical babes in toyland disney re make of the classic with annette tommy sands ray bolger and ed wynn clv min action american angels baptism of blood meet the first ladies of wrestling clv min making of runaway train pickup all of the behind the scenes action displayed for your pleasure jon voigt ann margret cav min drama i posed for playboy when fantasy meets reality lynda carter clv min shipping costs of per disk disk for disks or more will be added to the total off of orders of or more titles no cods mo or checks accepted in advance payment larry mcelhiney x mack mchome santa cruz ca us
misc.forsale	wargames magazines forsale discounts please take off each item over off each item over here is the list of magazines including asking price strategy tactics magazine all include unpunched games new as mailed with games and all inclusions issue title asking oil war american intervention in the persian gulf berlin the enemy at the gates tito partisan army yugoslavia kaiser s battle german offensive march operation grenade rhineland feb mar sicily the race to messina jul aug the battle of monmouth colonies take offensive end of an era new as mailed with games and all inclusions in envelope issue title asking the battle of abensberg magazine only kanev russian paratroops manchu the taiping rebellion north german plain modern germany the tigers are burning camp in the ukraine nicararagua pegasus bridge the beginning of d day campaigns in the valley fortress stalingrad russian winter offensive the far seas german cruiser operations wwii beirut arab stalingrad rush for glory war with mexico the ah general magazine many other articles included in each issue issue title asking vol crescendo of doom fortress europa circus maximus stalingra bismark squad leader clinic campaign magazine many other articles included in each issue issue title asking crescendo of doom cross of iron counterstroke at inchon squad leader variant gdw s battle for leyte gulf all magazine prices include postage all issues are in new or like new condition games and books yaquinto publications inc attack of the mutants introductory game unpunched new the complete book of wargames out of print author jon freeman part introduction pages including ch kassala an introductory wargame complete information on over wargames as of hardcover pages large format shipping extra on books and games prefer money orders for payment i ll allow personal checks to clear before shipping larry larry mcelhiney th avenue santa cruz ca x w h
misc.forsale	software and hardware for sale i have the following items for sale animation works software for macintosh by gold disk this is a brand new shrink wrapped copy microsoft excel for windows ver opened but includes everything including registration card video fastwrite vga card video memory x resolution everex b internal modem video card and the modem are used items if you are interested make a reasonable offer i wish to ship these ups cod please email me at karu nevada edu thank you karu karu nevada edu
misc.forsale	need apartment room in boston i will be in boston cambridge specifically working this summer and am in need of a place to stay if you have a room to sublease or anything of the sort i would appreciate a mail i am a year old white male and am very flexible i can adapt to a smoking or non smoking environment access to the t would be nice though i will have a car thus need a parking space i would need this from late may or early june until aproximately end of july any responses welcome mike mbeck vtssi vt edu
misc.forsale	computer audio video furniture needed as of unless otherwise noted i am mainly interested in used items if you have any of the following for sale please contact me email mbeck vtssi vt edu phone usmail michael beck progress street e blacksburg virginia please give as much info as possible brand age condition etc wanted as of am computer equip cheap tape drive pretty much any kind used memory for ps model z new or used macintosh computer mhz chip new or used colorado tape drive megabyte preferr w tapes used key at keyboard high density mb disk drive printer oms or hp laser or hp deskjet series printer pin or deskjet high density mb disk drive external adaptec scsi bit hd fd controller used piggy back memory expansion for intel inboard mb ide hard drive monitor resolution dot pitch or better digital non computer equip drum set mult amps for a band tv or bigger stereo vcr heads stereo receiver watts or more w dolby prologic surround sound capability bed full or queen sized local offers only please desk local offers only please due to shipping constraints
misc.forsale	videocamera amiga hp thinkjet for sale as of if you are interested in any of the following please contact me email mbeck vtssi vt edu phone usmail michael beck progress street e blacksburg virginia for sale as of am panasonic af x ccd omnimovie camcorder vhs hq high speed shutter flying erase head ca years old but only used very lightly date time stamp counter memory rec review fade back light auto manual focus built in microphone jack for external microphone comes with sturdy aluminum hardplastic carrying case long x wide x high shoulder strap power adaptor battery charger battery pack remote recording controller uhf vhf cable adaptor audio video cables and adaptor aproximate dimensions measured around outmost features long x wide x high w handle asking price best offer so far but looking for more new price amiga ux mhz unix compatible machine w meg hard drive meg ram no monitor keyboard esc and keys broken asking price obo hewlett packard thinkjet printer w hp ib interface like new in original box asking price obo sold at t portable cellular phone model asking price sold for listed at new sold compaq lte laptop contact for details best offer so far sold for
misc.forsale	wanted cheap used gameboy tg games the title says it all if you have some cheap used gameboy or tg player or more games please email me all offers rohit
misc.forsale	technical books for sale hello i have the following for sale most of the books are in perfect condition if interested please e mail to chungy rpi edu through the telescope hard cover surface physics soft cover the physics of structurally disordered matter an introduction soft cover subatomic physics hard cover a first general relativity hard cover non equilibrium thermodynamics soft cover advances in atomic and molecular physics vol hard cover advances in atomic and molecular physics vol hard cover molecular beams hard cover molecular beams and reaction kinetics hard cover perturbation methods in applied mathematics hard cover elementary differential equations and boundary value problems hard cover vector mechanics for engineers statics and dynamics hard cover free electron lasers hard cover physical mechanics hard cover
misc.forsale	electronics curtis mathes vhs vcr remote included and it works with universal remotes heads works great but i replaced it with a stereo vcr paid years ago will sell for delivered obo radio shack stereo amp inputs tone and left and right volume speakers not included compact w unit for plus shipping great for amiga stereo output or soundblaster output if you are interested in either of the above mail me keith at radley gibbs oit unc edu or call me at i did have these sold but both deals fell thru so if you are still interested in either email or call me major computer science eith radley minor english radley gibbs oit unc edu computer amiga university of north carolina
misc.forsale	misc stuff for sale misc items for sale mount plate sony model cpm p mounting plate for sony portable cd players for portable plugs into car lighter snaps onto the bottom of any sony cd player portable cd player perfect condition will also throw in a cassette adapter in so so condition paid asking car speakers sherwood two way car speakers in car for months inch excellent condition paid asking inch factory speakers from toyota excellent condition asking nintendo nintendo game boy light boy tetris super mario land gameboy nfl football castlevania adventure hyper lode runner years games old all in working condition asking accessories whole internet the whole internet user s guide and catalog by ed krol book guide to using the internet where to fing information and resources paid asking microsoft never used came with my computer asking visual basic microsoft came with my computer never used asking word for windows thanks jonathan d fields fields cis ohio state edu
misc.forsale	cd roms sale new update i m looking to find some people interested in getting some cd rom s below is a list with their prices if you are interested in any of these send me some mail and i can guarantee this price if you are not local their will be a shipping cost and cod cost if you prefer it to be shipped that way marcus updated prices from last post american business phonebook dos animals dos animals mpc audoban birds dos audoban mammals dos barney bear goes to school dos bible library dos bibles and religion dos book of lists dos britannicas family choice dos britamrica select dos business economics dos business backgrounds dos business master dos carmen san diego where is mpc cd play launch dos cd rom software jukebox dos cia vorld taur dos chess master mpc dos classic collection dos clipert goliath dos colossal cookbook dos delorme s atlas usa win desert storm mpc deathstar arcade battles dos dictionaries language dos education master dos electronic home library dos family doctor dos family encyclopedia by comptons dos family encyclopedia by comptons mpc game master dos game pack ii dos golden immortal dos great cities of the world dos greet cities of the world mpc great cities of the world ii dos great cities of the world ii mpc groliers encyclopedia dos groliers encyclopedia mpc guiness disc dos ham radio dos information usa dos islands designs dos jets props dos jones fast lane dos mps kgb cia world fact book dos kings quest dos mpc library of the future dos loom dos mpc wizard mpc macmillan kids dictionary mpc magazine rack dos majestic places dos mavis beacon teaches typing mpc mixed up mother goose dos mpc money money money dos monkey island dos oak cd stand dos our solar system dos presidents dos publish it v dos reference library dos secret weapons luftwaffe mpc shereware games dos shereware overload dos sher holmes consul det mpc sleeping beauty dos strd cd software bundle titles n a stellar dos mpc story time interactive dos the cd rom collection dos time magazine almanac current dos time table of hist sci innovation dos tons gigs dos too many typefonts dos total baseball dos us atlas w automap dos us history dos us world atlas dos mpc us wars civil war dos wild places dos wing com ultima vi dos mpc world view dos e mail mkbaird david wheaton edu mkbaird david bitnet uunet uu net voice internet mkbaird david uunet uu net e mail mkbaird david wheaton edu mkbaird david bitnet uunet uu net voice internet mkbaird david uunet uu net
misc.forsale	motherboard for sale i ve got a motherboard for sale i dx processor w mb ram ami bios w setup math coprocessor socket expansion slots full sized motherboard fits any full sized case all manuals included make me an offer reason for sale i ve got a new hp workstation to play with now also other peripherals vga card moditor teac disk drives printer etc available e mail for more info the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the university of north carolina at chapel hill the campus office for information technology or the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu or
misc.forsale	panasonic dot matrix printer complete i would like to sell my dot matrix printer so i can upgrade to inkjet it is a panasonic kx p pin multi mode printer here are the stats from memory and the manual x dot printing for hi res graphics etc very fast up to cps printing in printer controlled as opposed to windows driver controlled printing bidirectional printing for faster processing speed fonts courier prestige bold ps script sans serif epson lq and ibm proprinter x printer emulation can accept single sheets envelopes and non carbon copies by friction feed front or bottom paper feed kb buffer i will send a sample document and a printed gif jpeg file to anyone who wishes to send a sase with purchase prepaid please i will include the following accessories manual cable centronics remaining stack of tractor fed paper about free copy of windows printer driver unless this is illegal or if it is included with windows free unregistered dos shareware program registration i think that apparently offers some word processing capabilities from dos the last two will be on a disk either size i am asking for around but i am open to any reasonable offers i am a college student so i cannot afford to buy a new printer without getting a considerable portion of the money from this printer this price includes all above items and shipping probably ups is included as well i have the original box but only one of the original styrofoam end pieces i will use a towel on the other end you get a free towel too worked fine getting it here the whole shebang might not fit in the original box i will figure this out after the offers come in email any questions and offers jon jmatkins midway uchicago edu jmatkins ellis uchicago edu
misc.forsale	turbografx system for sale for sale nec turbografx video game system package includes base unit with power supply tv hookups controller and the games keith courage in alpha zones and ordyne one extra controller turbotap let s you hook up as many as controllers to the tg all original packaging manuals etc for the above items the games tv sports football alien crush splatterhouse and takin it to the hoop current market price for the above system is approximately asking price is system was purchased in january of this year and has seen little use since then if interested contact me via one of the methods in my signature file chris freemesser rit cpet visit rochester new york where money is the priority home of the world s largest usenet clf ultb rit edu collection of potholes genie c freemesser
misc.forsale	re adlib sound board for sale in article bitzm columbia dsu edu bitzm columbia dsu edu michael bitz writes i have an adlib sound board for sale it includes the original disks and i ll throw in a windows wav sound file driver for those of you that are using your pc speaker for games this will be a much welcomed board for your pc includes shipping to your home or office email bitzm columbia dsu edu considering that you can get a brand new sounds blaster original for around i think this price is way too high then again things are worth what someone is will to pay for them jason settle down raise a family join the pta buy some sensible shoes and a chevrolet and party till you re broke and they drag you away it s ok al yankovic
misc.forsale	softwares games new or used for sale i have following softwares for sale new items never opened lucid d three dimensional spreadsheet with pull down menus on line help up to pages of notes behind every cell for dynamic detail d capability compatible with lotus etc including shipping manual disks turbo pascal express with ready to run assembly language routines that make turbo pascal faster more powerful and easier to use disks and manual including shipping dr halo iii much more than an icon driven paint program it s a complete page composition and presentation graphics package automatic aspect ratio correction for wysiwyg printing true color or grey scale output and partial screen prints disks and manual including shipping key form designer plus software for making professional business forms disks and manual plus shipping like new items package is opened but not registered jetfighter ii advanced tactical fighter f as well as f f f a and f disks and manuals plus shipping obo nighthwak f a stealth fighter the definitive simulation of america s radar elusive jet sensational sound nine world s hot spots cuba north korea the kuwaiti t theatre of operations central europe the north cape libya the persian gul f vietnam and the middle east awesome missions to challenge you disks and manual plus shipping obo grammatik iv plus shipping quattro pro make an offer gem chart graphics word publisher v make an offer all items above are for ibm compatible systems
misc.forsale	reduced sony cd players sale item sony es cdpx condition excellent age year old price includes tos link item sony cdp condition excellent age years old price everything comes with the original packaging and manuals these items have only been played through audiophile system and are in excellent shape if you are interested or need any additional information please e mail pc o andrew cmu edu or call me at home thanks jon p s yes these are for sale again
misc.forsale	genesis megadrive games for sale trade i have the following genesis megadrive games for sale or trade for other genesis md or snes games all games will work with both us and uk machines or hz except where stated and all are boxed with instructions d d warriors of the eternal sun outlander death duel chakan the forever man wonder boy in monster land a sennas super monaco gp hz only ill accept us or uk sterling make me an offer cheers jonathan onathan phone x address department of computing fax lancaster university e mail jonathan comp lancs ac uk lancaster lancs u k
misc.forsale	snes genesis games for sale or trade i have the following genesis carts for sale or trade alien global gladiators crue ball i have the following snes carts for sale or trade jimmy connors tennis super play action football cross system trades are fine cheers marc on the net no one can hear you scream email marc comp lancs ac uk marc computing lancaster ac uk
misc.forsale	cd s for sale th following cd s are for sale each cd cost except otherwise indicated which includes shipping and handling achtung baby u joshua tree u the immaculate collection madonna love hurts cher garth brooks garth brooks red hot chilli peppers ooooohhhhh tlc light and shadows wilson used only once never used most of them are still in shrink wraps please email to kgc woods ulowell edu
misc.forsale	month old polk speakers for sale month old polk system for sale excellent condition month old proof available polk monitor bookshelf speakers are being offered for sale the are excellent and sound great i am going for a higher model so i need to sell these speakers i paid for the pair of bookshelf speakers i am willing to consider the best offer send me your offers e mail suraj cs jhu edu also have excellent condition luxman receiver r and onkyo tape deck ta rw for sale both are in excellent condition and just months old makes an excellent system paid for receiver tape deck and speakers months back will consider the best offer each piece will be sold seperately if wanted e mail best offer to suraj cs jhu edu suraj
misc.forsale	re uhc svr forsale in article c i rs kzo gator rn com larry gator rn com larry snyder writes darylm illian mnet com daryl v mcdaniel writes considering the conversation about uhc on the net i wouldn t say k is a good deal considering the package is inflated in price to start with larry snyder larry gator rn com what problems have you had with uhc i have been using their os for years and have had very few problems eddie d tuggle etuggle dora auc trw com there is nothing either good or trw denver operations bad but thinking makes it so centretech pky aurora co shakespeare voice fax
misc.forsale	sls linux for sale disk tape since i have some free time while looking for a job i thought i would offer linux on disk and tape for those who need it note i am offering this service for experienced users who require no support simply put i am just a disk shuffler if you think you will need support i highly recommend softlanding linux system sls directly they provide an excellent product at a decent price with support i am the lazy mans service for those who don t want to spend hours on the modem and hours shuffling floppies and those who don t need sls support and opt to go it alone what you get each disk is disk minimum a minimal system disks b base system extras disks c compilers disks d documentation disks s source misc disk t tex disks x x windows disks entire set discount or the entire set on qc tape for send check or money order stephen balbach enberend terrace columbia md send e mail so i can have it ready sooner stephen access digex com
misc.forsale	maxtor info needed was re unix pc software for sale in qvs knh crl crl com bob nntp crl com bob ames writes here is a list of items for the b which i am selling list deleted pps priam d m hard drives exactly same as maxtor but faster does anyone know what the jumpers should be set to on the maxtor i have a that came off of a vs that i would like to use on a pc thanks in advance colin
misc.forsale	for sale mac classic and stylewriter i am selling my macintosh classic and stylewriter to the highest bidder you can reach me at san francisco or via email at forsythe leland stanford edu david goldberger
misc.forsale	re test instruments for sale the following is no longer for sale it has been sold textronics type storage display screen dim x textronics tm base with three pg mhz pulse generators textronics a adj dc power supply volts amps keithley instruments picoammeter analogic digit panal mount voltmeters still for sale hewlett packard a oscilloscope with aa four channel mhz vertical amplifier and a time base and delay generator best offer over analogic digit panal mount voltmeter powered by vdc model an x p same dimensions as above shipping reasonable offers will be accepted please respond by e mail or phone e mail halle rpi edu phone
misc.forsale	re receiver and c equilizer for sale i have sold the receiver the equilizer is still for sale technics sa integrated quartz synthesizer digital receiver sold audio control c graphic equilizer this is an awesome eq but i am broke bands channel octave eq subsonic filter rumble reducer tape monitor amazing real time spectrum analyzer with calibrtated microphone and pink noise generator calibrated and uncalibrated range adjustment display is calibrated in db and can display the average energy per band or the average for the full speactrum great for checking how loud your system is the display action has two speed settings to adjust how quickly the display responds to transients this is one of the best equilizers around it is very quiet and the display is fascinating to watch it sells for in stores so i will sell it for obo send all responses to halle rpi edu or call eve
misc.forsale	hummel collectors left chimney sweep number i to closed edition or line purchased in west germany in retail sell s h extra i have a picture of it if you want to see first in excellent shape no chips or cracks great idea for mother s day this is a great buy interested please e mail or call wk or eves brose
misc.forsale	re catalog of hard to find pc enhancements repost andy freeman writes joe doll writes the catalog of personal computing tools for engineers and scien tists lists hardware cards and application software packages for pc xt at ps class machines focus is on engineering and scien tific applications of pcs such as data acquisition control design automation and data analysis and presentation if you would like a free copy reply with your u s postal mailing address i am very interested in your catalog but e mail to you bounces don t bother it never comes it s a cheap trick for building a mailing list to sell if my junk mail flow is any indication i have a copy of this catalog in front of me as i write this it does have tons of qool stuff in it my impression is that they try not to send it out to browsers it appears that if your not a buyer or an engineer they do not want to waste a catalog on you when you get a catalog there s a vip code you have to give them to ensure your continued subscription anyway if you want to get in touch with them the company is personal computing tools division street campbell ca they also have fax s and toll free s for ordering and tech support please note that i am not associated with them in any way in fact i have never ordered from them so i can t comment on their products or service but the catalog is real and i am sitting here salivating over it
misc.forsale	expen ive motorola handheld radio for peanuts heavy duty commercial tiny x x inch waterproof vhf watt channel handheld two way radio motorola expo purchased new for amateur frequencies absolute m i n t condition never scratched dropped opened or otherwise comprosmised can be re crystaled for business band has pl slot original price motorola expo vhf watt chan ht comes with portable charger antenna manual new ni cad pack back housing belt clip motorola extra new ni cad pack motorola extra vhf rubber duckie antenna motorola desktop quick charger motorola external speaker mic motorola v cig lighter battery eliminator motorola heavy duty nylon holster motorola expo technical manuals motorola expo tuning case opening tools n c would like or best offer thanks a lot jeff jeff b later wb tza jeffl pmafire inel gov i have become disclaimer disclaimer where s my lawyer comfortably numb pink floyd
misc.forsale	re sega genesis for sale w sonic aboyko dixie com andrew boyko writes month old sega genesis barely used one controller in original box with sonics and gets the whole bundle shipped to you turns out they re not as addictive when they re yours anyway mail me if you re interested in this marvel of modern technology well i ve been informed that the price on the whole thing i m selling is now less than the price i m selling it for that will teach me to wait that long before getting rid of electronic equipment nevermind everyone i m keeping the thing andrew boyko aboyko dixie com
misc.forsale	case mfm contr game card sound card forsale desktop case watt power supply internal bays and external origanaly dell system case looks real good all hardware included i would like shipping or best offer western digital mfm controler bit floppy hard never had a problem with it i would like shipping or best offer game card works well nothing fancy just a joystick port i would like shipping or best offer innovation game sound card has one game port and an adlib port i never used it i got a soundblaster cheep before i installed it i would like shipping all offers considered buyer pays shipping please resopnd to klwright eos ncsu edu or thanks ken
misc.forsale	monitor for sale for sale kfc svga monitor x dp non interlaced screen still under warranty or best offer
misc.forsale	used stuff i have this used equipment for sale everything is negotiable baud compuadd internal modem all docs and software sco unix v all disks and docs has uucp all utils old mb floppy drive functional out of an old dead st mb rll drive don t know whats wrong with it old joystick don t remember the brand name old boat anchor cga monitor with full length cga card serial card pin test drive iii accolade all prices neg shipping
misc.forsale	ford galaxy original owner miles california car i m posting this for my mom and dad s neighbor please contact her directly for sale ford galaxy door cid engine automatic lt blue miles yes that is correct it was her nd car original owner alway garaged california inland valley car no rust paint good original interior good professionally maintained everything in good shape except gas gauge doesn t work all original except a rd brake light added call
misc.forsale	ps stuff misc p stuff cards micro channel arcnet coax x net cards serial adapter p n x parallel adapters p n x coprocessor p n x memory expansion option p n x expanded memory adapter w mb p n x expanded memory adapter k p n x alloy ftc mca tape adapter drives hard floppy mb hdd p n x model wd r mb hdd p n model wd t fdd p n f ec a fdd p n f ec this is what i have aquired over the past few years in ps components i have posted the part s so if you have any questions as to what a component is you can call ibm and find out i have no idea make me an offer trades welcome dan scherer voice pager seanews seattle public access usenet news mail news xanadu seanews akita com
misc.forsale	comics for sale i want to get rid of alot of comics that i have i am selling for off the overstreet price guide comic condition arion m batman s detective comics vf nm contest of champions m contest of champions m contest of champions m crystar m daredevil elektra dies nm m daredevil m fantastic four st app black panther f vf g i joe m hercules m incredible hulk st app wolverine vf the krypton chronicles m the man thing m the man thing m marvel age vf marvel age nm marvel and dc present x men and new teen titans m marvel graphic novel st app new mutants m the marvel guide to collecting comics nm marvel team up vf nm marvel team up m master of kung fu m the micronauts m micronauts king size annual m new mutants copies m new mutants m new mutants m the omega men m red sonja m ripley s believe it or not true war strories vf rom spaceknight m rom spaceknight m the secret society of super villains nm peter parker the spectacular spiderman m amazing spiderman m star trek m super villain classics origin galactus m new teen titans m uncanny tales publisher s file copy nm m vision and the scarlet witch m what if the avengers had never been nm wolverine limited series m wolverine limited series m wolverine limited series m wolverine limited series m x men f x men f x men f x men f
misc.forsale	books for sale someone please buy these books i am not asking much just make me an offer and i will probably take it calculus w analytic geometry by authur b simon copyright date below avg condition but still readable writing good software in fortran graham smith the holt handbook by kirszner mandell copyright page writing guide algebra trigonometry a problem solving approach rd edition by w flemming and d varberg very good condition general chemistry principles modern applications r petrucci fourth edition big book very good condition solutions manual for chemistry book paperback study guide for chemistry book paperback send me your offers via email at chopin udel edu sam chopin udel edu
misc.forsale	tektronix equipment color terminal printer rasterizer supplies for sale tektronix color terminal tektronix a rasterizer tektronix inkjet printer tektronix printer extras all tektronix products paper boxes transparencies boxes maintenance cartridges cart magenta ink cartridge cart we would like to sell as a single lot and preference will be given to offers for the entire list all offers accepted best offer gets the equipment bob robert d worsham bob email worsham aer com atmospheric environmental research inc voice memorial drive fax cambridge ma usa
misc.forsale	what a deal boy oh boy have i got a deal for you how does this sound i have decided to sell all of this as a package deal unless someone really wants something seperate then i m open to that as well kramer striker st electric guitar dark metallic blue floyd rose tremlo tuning lockers at the nut great action all around great guitar plus korg pme x professional modular effects pedal board has flanger chorus and graphic equilizer has a unique bonus you can buy seperate pedal boxes that sort of slide into any of the existing slots mono input stereo output perfect for the electric or acoustic guitars plus dod american metal distortion pedal durable great sounding pedal goes great with the korg pedal board there you have it everything you need for a great sound yours as a package deal for only o b o respond by email to dietrijj mentor cc purdue edu or by phone at and ask for jason thanks in advance jason dietrich
misc.forsale	porsche bay area posting this for a friend sunnyvale california porsche gts package leather interior european handling package sunroof cruise control k miles new paint immaculate in every way delivery possible to destination with deposit firm low book is high book is phone frank rosqui as new this vehicle was this posting does not reflect the opinions of my employer
misc.forsale	selling riding lawn mower ariens riding lawn mower this mower is in perfect condition and contains the following features electric start inch cut double rear baggers new battery new engine one year old inflatable tires gives nice ride cushioned seat gives nice ride i am moving into a house that has a small area of grass to cut and does not require such large mower the engine was replaced not rebuilt last year due to some faulty work done by a lawn mower repair shop price phone leave message
misc.forsale	for sale cheap logic boards update here s the updated list of the stuff i still have for sale also feel free to make an offer i m asking per board currently known electronic mother boards from old arcade games game name condition manufacturer tenyard fight iren tenyard fight bad internal short iren kangaroo sun electronics mr do okay but has interference guardian tip top sega bank panic sega sanritsu sega radar scope okay nintendo poseidon taito ninjakun bad needs capacitor crystal jass rack jamma double dribble zoar okay super trivia bad got fried greyhound electronics slither has error message century ii corp music trivia jaleco samurai fore groud char disapear taito poseidon okay taito ant eater tago electronics up n down buzzing sound tutankham bad konami pro wrestling okay video trivia grayhound asteron belt sega unknown boards sega konami pacific novelty manufacturing inc if anyone has the rom numbers for these boards please tell me absolutely unknown board misc stuff somekind of powersupply similar to atary audio reg ram card midway midway patter board z sync buss controller pacman filters midway pin scsi cable both ends are female alex fagundes proud owner of a maverick and another microfsh iastate edu believer that amiga rules
misc.forsale	tires for sale i have a set of four r big o tires that i had on my thunder bird we bought them and then traided the car in they would not give me anything for them so i had them taken off we drove about miles on them they are mile tires they are sporty looking low profile and take corners realy well if you are interested please contact me at or dusmadso idbsu idbsu edu i am in idaho usa
misc.forsale	memory howdy i m just posting this for a friend so don t reply to me i have a friend who has some x simms for sale mb for or mb for he also has a conner mb hard drive for it runs at ms his name is john and he can be reached at his bbs called classified connection at he is the sysop and you can call him and hear his awesome voice at adios the r the o the b the s k i
misc.forsale	for sale jazz recordings for sale jazz compact discs i have the following cds for sale they are all in mint condition and are fairly hard to find they are all on the savoy label and put out by dennon dennon bought the rights to savoy and released these disks i would like to sell them all in one package deal but i will consider individual orders these are the titles and artists telefunken blues milt jackson kenny clarke percy heath frank morgan frank wess walter benton jazz concert west coast the bopland boys opus de jazz vol john rae steve kuhn bobby jaspar jake hannah john neves patterns of jazz cecil payne kenny dorham duke jordan tommy potter art taylor penthouse serenade erroll garner footloose paul bley the imortal lester young lester young count basie great britain s marian mcpartland george shearing howard mcghee and milt jackson self titled i just love jazz piano hampton hawes john mehegan herbie nichols paul smith art pepper sonny reid self titled opus de blues frank wess thad jones curtis fuller charlie fowlkes hank jones eddie jones gus johnson jazz is busting out all over too many names to list opus in swing frank wess kenny burrell freddie green eddie jones kenny clarke jackson s ville milt jackson lucky thompson hank jones wendell marshall kenny clarke i will take any reasonable offer on the package of the discs as well as offers on individual discs please e mail me with a response or call thanx derek derek j p serianni e mail djserian flash lakeheadu ca o o sociologist it s miles to chicago we ve got a full tank lakehead university of gas half a pack of cigarettes it s dark and u thunder bay ontario we re wearing sunglasses elwood blues
misc.forsale	ega vga monitor card wanted as it says in the subject i am looking for a decent ega or vga monitor card combo that is in working condition the only thing is that it must be an bit card e mail all offers to io maine maine edu thanks merv
misc.forsale	is itproper net etiquette to advertise a company s junk mail list in article c jccg bn tsoft net you write stuff deleted my company maintains a mailing list which is regularly rented for one time use by the major software companies the method you are using to seed your junk mail isn t really effective bulk mailers regulary either send their databases to be cleaned by the ncoa which if you ve moved recently will revert back to the original xxx cool and in large mailings there will likely be a dupe of you and they ll pick the first and use the others for future mailings btw our list is currently one of the hottest lists for actual buyers of a ms windows utility product in the range and is available through direct media in ct at per name please let your direct mail marketing rep know about this thanks ted it is my impression that net etiquette does not allow companies to use the net to directly advertise their products in addition to improper etiquette this product is a mailing list used for generating junk mail am i correct in assuming this is improper and if so what can be done to penalize such an improper use dale thompson
misc.forsale	montreal olympics souvenirs montreal olympics philatelic souvenirs color illustrated booklet in french english containing all stamps issued for the games mint never hinged in slipcase over face value in stamps insured first class mailing unusual desk pad holder with olympic rings on the cover and the montreal stadium inside all the canadian olympic stamps are displayed on the cover under heavy plastic again over face value insured first class mailing order both for including insured delivery
misc.forsale	cpm c stuff forsale forsale cpm computers model ampro a rev a with or without k floppy drives and system disks z processor unknown brand w miniscribe model hard drive height shugart model floppy drive keyboard system disks also shugart model floppy drives also commodore computer disk drive will sell in whole or in parts buyer pays shipping to make offers either email beers cs buffalo edu or call and ask for jonathan andrew
misc.forsale	re realistic pro hand held scanner i d offer for your scanner shipping at your expense payment to be sent by personal check within hours after receipt of goods or if you live nearby and can deliver payment in cash with hour advance notice so i can go to the bank if sent by mail i reserve the right to return it at my expense if when i check it out i find it to be defective in some way btw why would you sell such a fine scanner did you replace it with some other instrument or find it not to be satisfactory in some way mark thorson
misc.forsale	pc s chair typewriter in boston ibm ps meg hd disk drive extended keyboard mouse mouse pad dos dosshell excel windo s word amipro gre studyware b o zenith date systems supersport laptop computer w v ac recharger model hz dos disc drives for floppy carrying case manuals b o leather desk chairs black brown or both for olivetti manual typewriter tropical model incl characters for typing in italian language please reply via email or call me at my home number thanks jason jason boro jboro enterprise bih harvard edu center for clinical computing boston ma
misc.forsale	re printing date apr gmt from cozzlab garnet berkeley edu in article apr sarah albany edu me albnyvms bitnet writes advertises his printing business oh dear let me be the first on my block you have just violated one of the major shibboleths of the usenet groups nit is he unable to type the first h in this word you re not supposed to use a newsgroup to plug your own commercial enterprise of any kind people frequently get flamed for announcing they ve got a new book out i don t know whether this is an official usenet rule or just a long standing custom and it doesn t make much difference from a practical point of view as a matter of fact d j it does make a difference almost a half million new users joined the internet last year many of them are commercial businesses the ban on commercial use of internet is no more one should have the breeding not to post commercial material on an account provided by ones employer or school unless the provider of such account gives permission ha those of us who pay for internet access are constrained only by our innate good taste and no have no administrator to guide us jack previdi veni vidi fece p psilink com
misc.forsale	help how to get refund from visual images i participated a promotion by a company called visual images they sent me a award certificate three months ago and asked me to buy their promotion package in order to receive the major award they mislabled my address and i did not receive my package until one month ago i was mad and angry about how it took them so long to get my package so i wrote them a letter and requested for a refund they never return my letter i was lucky enough to find out their telephone number through operator and received the package i immediately returned the package and wrote them another letter to ask for refund the package was returned because they address they put on the package was incorrect i attempted to call them and learnd that they have changed their telephone number it took me at least phone calls to find out their new number but they refused to take any responsibility i spoke to their manager and she said she would call me back but she has not call yet but i was able to get their address from their front desk should i just go ahead and send the package or should i waite until they call me back i know there are several people on the net has experience with the same company i would like to know how they got their money back if you have similar experience please advise me thanks in advance douglas kou hiram college
misc.forsale	for sale karmann ghia karmann ghia this car is in excellent running condition mi on new engine new tires aug new clutch new carb original radio am fm upholstery in great shape burgundy exterior black interior this car has been well maintained with regular tune ups unfortunately the car s previous owner had a minor front end collision the right front nose is dented and patched up with bondo i have the hard to find part needed to repair this damage besides that damage the car is in excellent condition bo courtney email cst blueoak berkeley edu phone after on weekdays
misc.forsale	for sale nissan sentra nissan sentra o two door hatchback o red o am fm cassette o lots of new parts well maintained o very clean inside and out o looks and runs great o bo bob or tracy at please do not respond to this account
misc.forsale	horse breeding and saling dear sirs the private agricultural firm dina is breeding pedigree horses of sportmodel class mainly trakenensky gannoversky and thoroughbred horses we have heads of dams getters of trakeninsky and thoroughbread breeds colts of years old sport live stock of horses of concour class for passing the route with obstacles the firm has a warm stable made of brick arranged to place horses we have possibility to expand the field of activity and systematically prepare our horses of concour class for sale for hard currency the experienced staff of the firm internetional class master workes for breeding and training of horses additional investments are necessary to purchase of larger dam live stock construction of the riding house for training extra stables for two years our firm has been organizing hunting tourism of the territory of the national park not far from moscow about km we are also concerned in the development of trading connections on delivering food products clothes foot wear etc to russia our address russia obninsk pr marksa phone fax electronic mail dina litana obninsk su vyacheslav chereshnev
misc.forsale	san mateo duplex house for sale san mateo duplex houses for sale west side location alameda and hwy large lot x nice quiet location no front neighbor space for pool or jacuzzi spacious rooms cozy living room with fireplace only minutes from highways and and excellent schools shopping and transportation nearby unit one remodeled sq foot bedrooms baths large master suite den study eat in kitchen very large backyard fenced backyard hardwood floor wall to wall carpet marbel tile vinyl car garage car port washer and dryer hook up living room dinning combo totally remodeled unit two brand new construction sq foot bedroom bath fire place dinning room private yard private entry detached unit washer dryer living room barbeque patio all separet utilities from the city price by owner call medi amadi at eves days baths
misc.forsale	wanted restaurant equipment wanted restaurant equipment for starting a new restaurant burner stove hot plate fryer stainless steel tables shelves etc pots n pans and a number of other items if interested pl email shailesh shailesh potnis associate concurrent engineering research member of technical staff center west virginia university
misc.forsale	wanted refrigerator wanted refrigerator contact jamesl galaxy nsc com
misc.forsale	smith corona typewriter for sale model scm electric smith corona typewriter for sale model scm electric great for forms envelopes labels small things etc that you just can t do with your microcomputer built like a tank but not big nor that heavy a classic compact electric with padded storage bag no scratches enamel paint chips or dents cloth ribbon colours will accept best offer near selling for a friend so these are her instructions not mine rsvp to this account though make any other offers anyways i ll pass them along a single sheet feeder for the macintosh imagewriter ii would be acceptable in trade for example gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
misc.forsale	tapes sale most sale tapes for sale each and the shipping is included those tapes are year old and are hardly used so there should not be any problem with it i really want to sell them so make me a package offer if you wish to eagles the best of eagles eagles hotel california elton john sleeping with the past gloria estefan into the light james ingram the power of great music kenny g duo tones lethal weapon music from the motion picture mariah carey mtv unplugged ep michael bolton time love and tenderness the phantom of the opera genesis we can t dance phil collins but seriously queen the works queen live magic wilson phillips send me your offer please send your offer to koutd hirama hiram edu thanks you douglas kou hiram college hiram ohio
misc.forsale	genie garage door remote forsale i have a genie garage door transmitter forsale this unit is a three button station will operate three different door or gate openers has never been used normaly goes for im ask shipping if interested please email me mageors sdf lonestar org
misc.forsale	apology printing dear fellow usenet users i would like to give a formal apology for posting an advertisement about my printing business i did not intend this to be an advertisement but rather an offer for people on the usenet many of whom use printing on a regular basis i was not aware that this is not legal on the usenet i am only trying to put myself through college for those of you who requested information i will write to you privately for those of you who are having fun flooding my mailbox i think you can grow up to offer advice is one thing but to use profanity toward me is another thank you marc me albnyvms bitnet
misc.forsale	jfk autograph for sale serious inquiries only after hearing about the mcgovern house story on paul harvey i never had any idea how much it was worth the autograph is on a senate pass card and is signed john kennedy i don t remember if it was signed senator john kennedy or whether or not it was dated because i haven t looked at it in quite a while currently it is in a safety deposit box i would rather sell to a private collector rather then go through an auction house such as christy s since that would tend to take away from the profit if you or any collector you may know has an interest in this please send me an e mail expressing your interest i will see what i can do to make a scanned gif of it available to prospective buyers
misc.forsale	baud external modem mint box manual phonecord shipping dennis
misc.forsale	dbase iv for sale price reduced dbase iv for sale inch disks all registration included so you can upgrade to if you want manuals still shrinkwrapped disks only opened to verify they all work asking or best offer
misc.forsale	for sale ems freq shifter this is yet for a friend again ems freq shifter the machine that made those d swirling guitar effects way back in the s spacial panner with harmonic shifting very rare a collectors item this is the last unit ems ever made rack mountable mono in up down signals out with seperate pan out and sine unsine voltage outs vco input too to control lfo if interested contact kevin before pm pst california at and make an offer do not reply to this account have a nice day h e y b e r e n xorcist cyberden sf ca us the cyberden public access waffle usenet system
misc.forsale	various computer audio video items wanted as of unless otherwise noted i am mainly interested in used items if you have any of the following for sale please contact me email mbeck vtssi vt edu phone usmail michael beck progress street e blacksburg virginia please give as much info as possible brand age condition etc wanted as of am computer equip cheap tape drive pretty much any kind used memory for ps model z new or used macintosh computer mhz chip new or used colorado tape drive megabyte preferr w tapes used key at keyboard high density mb disk drive printer oms or hp laser or hp deskjet series printer pin or deskjet high density mb disk drive external adaptec scsi bit hd fd controller used piggy back memory expansion for intel inboard mb ide hard drive monitor resolution dot pitch or better digital mult xt s at s and laptop systems to go to russia non computer equip drum set mult amps for a band tv or bigger stereo vcr heads stereo receiver watts or more w dolby prologic surround sound capability bed full or queen sized local offers only please desk local offers only please due to shipping constraints
misc.forsale	video camera amiga for sale as of if you are interested in any of the following please contact me email mbeck vtssi vt edu phone usmail michael beck progress street e blacksburg virginia for sale as of am panasonic af x ccd omnimovie camcorder vhs hq high speed shutter flying erase head ca years old but only used very lightly date time stamp counter memory rec review fade back light auto manual focus built in microphone jack for external microphone comes with sturdy aluminum hardplastic carrying case long x wide x high shoulder strap power adaptor battery charger battery pack remote recording controller uhf vhf cable adaptor audio video cables and adaptor aproximate dimensions measured around outmost features long x wide x high w handle asking price best offer new price amiga ux mhz unix compatible machine w meg hard drive meg ram no monitor keyboard esc and keys broken asking price obo mult proteon p token ring cards sold at t portable cellular phone model asking price sold for listed at new sold compaq lte laptop contact for details best offer so far sold for
misc.forsale	re cellular phone portable for sale i offer shipment at seller s expense payment as personal check sent by u s mail within hours after receiving goods i reserve the right to return the goods at my expense if i find them to be defective or otherwise unacceptable when i receive them either the merchandise or the check would be mailed within hours mark thorson
misc.forsale	bware of jayhayes deleware had a deal with jay hayes from deleware and was ripped off do not deal with this guy and if you know him go to his door with a bat he lives in deleware and i will post his full address later as well as his phone number in case any on e else wants to call and leave nasty messages he will not return email and he will not return my phone calls i left a message iwth hgis roomate to call collect and hes not man enough he still maintains net privilages can we somehow get this turkey off the net da
misc.forsale	toolwork mpc encyclopedia on cd rom i have the following program on cd rom forsale toolwork mpc encyclopedia on cd rom multimedia brand new shrink wrapped asking obo send reply to sam ocf berkeley edu thank you
misc.forsale	portable color television for sale hello everyone i have a casio tv lcd color television for sale it is in mint condition retail is but i m looking to get about of that for it tops highest bidder in a week gets it assuming the highest bidder is at least tv comes with black case and uses aa batteries they also sell ac adaptor it has external jack for phones and external antenna etc the picture is very good and it has electronic tuning so you don t have to screw with tuning a picture in etc i have the box and all documentation this has seen less than hours use as i have all but sworn off tv best regards jack waters ii
misc.forsale	quantum scsi mb hard drive for sale hi i have a quantum prodrive lps mb scsi hard drive for sale it came with my maciisi and was replaced by a larger hard drive in great working condition fast and quiet never had a problem asking cod shipping or reasonable offer also for sale with the drive brand new mounting bracket for macii or macse it also includes scsi data and power cable with the hd please reply with email or call and leave message thanks ding kai chen dcg uxa cso uiuc edu uiuc classifieds uiuc classifieds computer misc forsale misc forsale computer misc forsale computer mac misc forsale computer other misc forsale computer pc clone
misc.forsale	for sale airline ticket for states canada for sale northwest airline fly write ticket for travel within the states and canada from anywhere in the country one way each round trip this ticket has no restrictions and is fully transferable however travel has to be completed buy june email arvind acuson com
misc.forsale	pin printer toshiba p sl track friction feeds lcd display months old like new sample print out sheet geoworks available emulaser a month old program by vertisoft makes print out look like an inkjet print out firm
misc.forsale	laptop mitsbishi laptop mp l mhz switchable m ram installed backlit cga ext cga mga m hh hdd m fdd com lpt ports complete manual set built like a tank excellent cosmetic cond dark gray used very lightly problems hdd stops working lcd sometimes doesn t work ext cag mga works best offer
misc.forsale	re drive for sale honda xr r dirt bike bought new from dealer in ridden only hours garage kept and well cared for the bike is in mint condition perfect size for lady or young adult price firm you will not be disappointed ohio kentucky indiana inquiries preferred please work leave voicemail please rob davis cincinnati ohio again this is a new bike
misc.forsale	for sale ibm wheelwriter i just won an ibm wheelwriter typewriter in a raffle here on campus since i have a nice computer and really need the cash i m putting it up for sale i have an offer from a local reseller for best offer above that plus shipping brian northwestern university economics international studies b olson nwu edu brian david olson bdolson casbah acns nwu edu bdolson cica es bdolson merle acns nwu edu bdolson sevaxu cica es
misc.forsale	update pioneer deh m car cd reciever for sale features include detachable face x watt amplifier infra red remote times oversampling bit dac supertuner iv fm and am presets best station memory cd changer controller loud switch clock all original packaging asking or best offer this cd reciever is a very nice radio great condition the remote comes in very handy you wouldn t think it would top of the line cd reciever interested send email to brion sohn at easu orion oac uci edu any resonable offers will be considered latest offer including shipping
misc.forsale	mccartney concert tickets for sale four tickets available for the paul mccartney concert at the alamo dome in san antonio tx on may th ground floor seats will sell all four or in pairs each e mail dennisod itx isc com
misc.forsale	akg electrostatic dynamic headphones for sale i have a pair of akg headphones for sale they are an electrostatic dyanmic headphone a dynamic element for the bottom end and an electrostatic for the high end they are very comfortable and sound very nice they are in like new condition i would like cdn for the pair brett maraldo unit research alien technology today bmaraldo watserv uwaterloo ca uunet clyde utai watserv bmaraldo
misc.forsale	ampex recording tape for sale i have full reels of ampex recording tape this tape was used once at ips and carefully stored all reel include an ampex tape band the tape has not been bulk erased to my knowledge the history of the tape in know and available upon request jmar in toronto sells new for tax canadian i would like cdn reel which will include postage brett maraldo plexus productions ps the reels are long standard thickness unit research alien technology today bmaraldo watserv uwaterloo ca uunet clyde utai watserv bmaraldo
misc.forsale	wizard oz pen based organizer pc link for sale for sale pen based electronic organizer brand new sharp wizard oz with pc link software and cable ounces measures x x fits in most pockets k ram k available to user pen touch screen input for pointing and drawing keyboard big enough to touch type on x screen windows pop up menus excellent scheduler with alarms telephone directories user configurable databases full word processor with formatting drawing utility outliner to do list calculator clock calendar terminal emulatorw dialing directory directory filing system serial port infrared port ic card slot uses aaa batteries about months of daily use all manuals organizer link ii software and cable for exchanging data between wizard and a pc or best offer for both i ll pay shipping steven m friedman horizon institute for policy solutions mail path smf s virginia bitnet voice path
misc.forsale	tcd d dat walkman for sale i recently backed out of purchasing an almost unused sony tcd d dat walkman having found someone else who has a unit i personally prefer and am paying more for however it s still a heck of a machine for the price it is quite rugged and many people out there swear by it it s probably the most popular walkman style dat machine out there anyway the guy selling it is bryan davis bdavis netcom com and here s what he told me here is what is included tcd d datman rca to stereo plug cables one for analog input one for analog output optical digital i o cable one lead for input one for output a copy of my sales receipt with a note about your purchase the unit is still under factory warrantee ac adaptor battery charger rechargable battery i paid tax for it so i hope you don t mind if i keep the minute tape it came with i have some samples on it by the way he spent at least too much for it unless he s including an extended warranty which is advised for dat machines since it costs about to replace the head when it wears out and it probably will within years if you use it a lot davisonj i m not going to quote my sale price for him that would not be nice send him mail and ask him what he wants again i ve used the tcd d and i have to say that i can certainly understand why it is as popular as it is i ve been using one for a little while and although i had some problems with it recently i should also point out that the particular one i was using had been on the road for two years and had truly been used during that time this is the same exact dat machine that was lugged around the u s and canada to record the jazz butcher conspiracy for their recent live album bryan davis says i know at least half a dozen professional musicians and record labels in s f who use that model and have been for a while with no reported problem my problem is that everyone i know already has one nuff said the reason i m not getting it is that i found someone else selling me a unit that features phono plug spdif i o instead of optical i don t have any optical ports on my equipment but you the reader might and it also has some other bells whistles that the tcd d doesn t i am also paying more for the alternative note that phono plug to optical spdif adapters are available if you absolutely must have one of course it has scms all consumer decks do so do sony minidiscs by the way anyway if you re interested get in touch with bdavis netcom com john davison davisonj ecn purdue edu
misc.forsale	hallicrafters s i have a hallicrafters s sw radio for sale worked the last time i tried it out make offer md michael p deignan sex is hereditary if your domain mpd anomaly sbs com parents never had it chances at tnet are you won t either telebit
misc.forsale	son of genuine vinyl records sale thank you all for requesting my list and thank you again if you purchased vinyl from me lotsa more vinyl leftover for sale vinyl looking for a new home please buy some more so i can stop running this ad bunches of vinyl records for sale including a metal acetate no not heavy metal music but em all and get amazing deal email me for big list and details mass usa arthur noguerola vos stratus com
misc.forsale	fortegraph emulator card what s this someone gave me this brand new card i am thinking to sell it cuz i don t need it but the problem is that i don t even know what this is this was made by forte communications co it has board combined together looks wierd to me and has pin ports one male and one female and also has a round port like bnc not sure this was made in and has a fortegraph emulator diagnostic disk with it has anyone here ever seen this or known what this is appreciate your help in advance eric
misc.forsale	re wanted trombone for a beginner in article qu p aam fnnews fnal gov greg schuweiler schuweiler fnal gov writes would like to purchase a trombone for a year old because this really really want i want to play daddy i ll practice everyday and i ll even keep my room really clean well he must really mean it would like to find a used one please e mail me at schuweiler fnal gov greg schuweiler schuweiler fnal gov i ve got a used one for sale i used it in high school and just don t have the occasion to get it out and play it anymore email me and we can work out something on it i can t get email to you for some reason david david b snyder logicon technical services inc dsnyder falcon aamrl wpafb af mil wright patterson air force base dayton ohio usa it is said that god doesn t subtract from ones time on earth those hours spent flying cessna n the lady in waiting owner operator opinions expressed are my own and not those of logicon or the usaf
misc.forsale	golf shoes size used pair of golf shoes size good shape no holes etc o b o plus shipping david david b snyder logicon technical services inc dsnyder falcon aamrl wpafb af mil wright patterson air force base dayton ohio usa it is said that god doesn t subtract from ones time on earth those hours spent flying cessna n the lady in waiting owner operator opinions expressed are my own and not those of logicon or the usaf
misc.forsale	snes games for sale trade i have the following games for sale or trade for other snes or genesis megadrive games all have instructions and box except where stated sfc mickeys magical quest no instructions a suzukis super grandprix legend of the mystical ninja uk snes out of this world another world super soccer us snes krustys fun house irem skins golf super tennis currently under offer i will sell for us for uk pounds cheers jonathan onathan phone x address department of computing fax lancaster university e mail jonathan comp lancs ac uk lancaster lancs u k
misc.forsale	darkroom supplies enlarger for sale besler c ii enlarger including filters negative carriers darkroom supplies containers trays thermometer beakers paper focuser etc i also have paper chemicals but i think these are past expiration date everything is in great working condition i bought it about a year ago and it has served its purpose well it hasn t been used it in a few months because i don t have the time or money to keep up with it and its just sitting in my bathroom taking up space i d like to use so i d like to sell it to someone who would use it rather than it collect dust in my bathroom if you are interested in the whole package i will sell everything including shipping for if you have something else in mind i m open to suggestions please reply to this account thank you michelle
misc.forsale	telepath fax modem for gateway gateway telepath fax modem for gateway computer with crosstalk winfax pro for windows never used shipped from gateway hong
misc.forsale	re microsoft dos upgrade for sale in article ahall apr slothrop fmrco com ahall fmrco com andrew hall writes in article c rvnz we unx sas com sasjhc maxwell unx sas com joe croos writes yuanchie eve usc edu yuan chieh hsu writes ms dos upgrade for sale best offer over opened unregistered gee my copy of pc magazine states that the upgrade is retailing for egghead across the street sells it for and i m going that way after work compusa has it for xx in boston i will sell it for including shipping walter g seefeld by the dawn s early light n jackson st a by all i know is right starkville ms we re going to reap what we have sown n qxr jackson brown
misc.forsale	piano free to charity i have one of those heavy antique upright pianos i would like to contribute to any charity with muscle enough to get it out of my house if i get no response from a charity i will sell to for you haul it is in good shape needs tuning i m in south durham county ed mcadams data general corporation mcadams dg rtp dg com t w alexander drive backbone mcnc rti dg rtp mcadams research triangle park nc ed mcadams data general corporation mcadams dg rtp dg com t w alexander drive backbone mcnc rti dg rtp mcadams research triangle park nc
misc.forsale	new stereo system for sale month old stereo system for sale luxman r receiver onkyo ta rw tape deck and polk monitor m book shelf speakers are for sale receiver has year warranty and all equipment is in excellent condition paid for the system and willing to consider the best offer will sell seperate pieces also if desired please send best offer to suraj cs jhu edu speakers polk monitor m bookshelf speakers paid pair willing to consider best offer receiver luxman r receiver with year yes years warranty paid willing to consider best offer full remote pairs of speaker connections watts per channel but drives like a watts per channel has all the standard features and more tape deck onkyo ta rw tape deck paid willing to consider best offer dual cassette dolby b c and hx pro input level control for recording auto reverse both sides has all standard features send e mail with best offer to suraj cs jhu edu suraj
misc.forsale	for sale pontiac grand prix se for sale pontiac grand prix se white white rims gray interior k miles mostly highway litre v multi port fuel injected engine speed manual transmission options include a c rear defogger power steering power brakes power windows power locks power mirrors cruise control power glass moonroof with sunshade power seat recliner driver s power seat comfort lumbar headrest both am fm cassette stero electronic monitor service system with graphic compass stereo controls duplicated on steering wheel remote keyless entry and others asking the car looks and rides like it just rolled off of the dealers lot it has been garaged and pampered it gets an average of mpg highway sometimes better city is around mpg depending on how it is driven selling because of baby coming soon need door family car will consider trade or partial trade with ford taurus mercury sable or door pontiac grand am or similar american car contact mike at home work or michaelq tlaloc sw stratus com
misc.forsale	v a power supplies f obo two lh research sm power supplies series sm w v a currently wired for vac control lines sense on off pwr fail high lo margin current monitor list price from lh research each qty asking for the pair obo steve glicker steve titan tsd arlut utexas edu
misc.forsale	sony cardiscman forsale i have a used sony d k cardiscman for sale i bought it new on june it still has the one year warranty intact specifications sony s best car discman perfect condition x oversampling bit d a converter beam laser pickup dual color display dsp sound processing bass boost and dds modes w levels of effect way repeat hold mode can also run on just aa batteries track programming w repeat random play w delete fused cigarette lighter adapter could save the player if something goes wrong accesories headphone plug line out jack sony mdr headphones ac power adapter patch cord for home use automobile mouting plate car conecting pack remote control great for home use carrying case extra fuses this unit is great to use in any car can be moved easily between vehicles works well in home or car just need cigaraette lighter outlet and a cassette player i have everything that it came with manuals packaging receipts etc the unit is in perfect condition with normal well taken care of use extremely versatile and manuverable unit that can be used anywhere i am asking for the system and extras please e mail if interested brent wagner wagnerbm sage cc purdue edu
misc.forsale	scanning radio realistic pro was sell for article of alt radio scanner path usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu aj from aj cleveland freenet edu aaron m barnes newsgroups alt radio scanner subject realistic pro for sale was sell for obo date apr gmt organization case western reserve university cleveland ohio usa lines message id r oo du usenet ins cwru edu nntp posting host slc ins cwru edu hello i have a realistic pro scanner for sale here is a small desc ription programible chanels fully detailed backlighted digital display headphone jack antenna jack removable telescoping antenna auto search coverage mhz mhz mhz it originally cost but i will sell for thank you buchanan in fear the goverment that fears your guns without the nd amendment we cannot guarantee ou r freedoms aj cleveland freenet edu buchanan in fear the goverment that fears your guns without the nd amendment we cannot guarantee ou r freedoms aj cleveland freenet edu
misc.forsale	new stereo system components for sale month old stereo system for sale luxman r receiver onkyo ta rw tape deck and polk monitor m book shelf speakers are for sale receiver has year warranty and all equipment is in excellent condition paid for the system and willing to consider the best offer will sell seperate pieces also if desired please send best offer to suraj cs jhu edu speakers polk monitor m bookshelf speakers paid pair willing to consider best offer receiver luxman r receiver with year yes years warranty paid willing to consider best offer full remote pairs of speaker connections watts per channel but drives like a watts per channel has all the standard features and more tape deck onkyo ta rw tape deck paid willing to consider best offer dual cassette dolby b c and hx pro input level control for recording auto reverse both sides has all standard features send e mail with best offer to suraj cs jhu edu suraj
misc.forsale	a memory needed wanted amiga memory expander any size at least meg populated or not eg ax insider etc needed desperately cash deal or trade for mnp everex evercom e external modem pc internal modem pp sa v bis external modem apple ii parts lots of pc cards panasonic video ccd video camera bl w lenses great for digi view etc ccd no lens no burn in send email asap the heartbeat of america yesterdays camaro z tfoley camaro uucp call the camaro linux pub access site usrobotics hst note please no ftpmail or mailing lists or the host gets annoyed
misc.forsale	amplifiers and speakers for sale of course linear power model iq channel automotive stereo amplifier watts peak per channel ohm stable fidelity tested you pay shipping pair two mobile authority woofers inch inch voice coil oz magnet watt peak power handeling ohms for both you pay shipping will not sell seperatly reply thru e mail to karl r schimmel the wichita state university krschimm at twsuvax krschimm wsuhub uc twsu edu
misc.forsale	olivetti xt i am selling an at t xt compatible it comes with a green screen cga monitor k floppy drive and a megabyte hard drive you would think it was brand new from the condition it s in asking price is shipping reply via e mail if interested
misc.forsale	vhs movie for sale vhs movie for sale dance with wovies the tape is new and just open buyer pay shipping cost if you are interested please send your offer to koutd hirama hiram edu thanks douglas kou hiram college
misc.forsale	re vhs movie for sale in article apr hirama hiram edu koutd hirama hiram edu douglas kou writes vhs movie for sale dance with wovies what the hell ios a wovie wovy sp from there to here from here to there funny things are everywhere dr suess jonathan sawitsky some random wierdo martimer wpi wpi edu
misc.forsale	c system for sale make offer for sale complete package only commodore c computer like new in the box with power supply and owners manuals commodore c disk drive like new in the box and owners manual commodore color monitor like new and owners manual panasonic kxp dot matrix printer like new and owners manual printer interface for panasonic printer fastload cartridge huge stack of books on c programming make a reasonable offer and i ll throw in disks of software please reply in e mail joachim nave nave jato jpl nasa gov jet propulsion laboratory pasadena california disclaimer no i don t speak for jpl
misc.forsale	re vhs movie for sale in article qvk u jnu bigboote wpi edu martimer jaguar wpi edu the random one writes in article apr hirama hiram edu koutd hirama hiram edu douglas kou writes vhs movie for sale dance with wovies what the hell ios a wovie wovy sp it s one of those animals you dance with but seriously i saw this video for sale brand new at palmer video for tx i guess if i could resell them for i would dance like a wovie
misc.forsale	wanted hp s or hp sx as the subject says looking for a hp s or perferiably hp sx please e mail replies thanks steven eckwielen bitnet she ritvax internet she ritvax isc rit edu uucp rutgers rochester rit ritvax she
misc.forsale	radar detector whistler x k ka whistler spectrum se x k ka pulse protection good condition purchased for asking for jason yow human factors psychology program wright state university dayton oh e mail jyow desire wright edu
misc.forsale	camera olympus stylus super small olympus stylus mm pocket sized red eye reduction timer fully automatic time date stamp carrying case smallest camera in its class rated in consumer reports excellent condition and only months old worth purchased for selling for jason yow human factors psychology program wright state university dayton oh e mail jyow desire wright edu
misc.forsale	re dx cpu chip for sale cyrix amd s not intel clones beware from what i understand neither the amd or cyrix s are clones of the intel they are using the name because they run as fast as a intel they do not have exactly the same instuction set nor do they fit into the same socket most are very fast s without coprocessors amd recent won the appeal against intel to use their microcode so they should be putting out real chips in the near future marc mallen wyvern wyvern com
misc.forsale	re vhs movie for sale in article qvk u jnu bigboote wpi edu martimer jaguar wpi edu the random one writes dance with wovies what the hell ios a wovie wovy sp what the hell is ios fix your own typos before you blame others go skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite go braves an effect on you mike patton faith no more go hornets go capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd a prism gatech edu
misc.forsale	re dx cpu chip for sale this entire dispute over a chip has deluged this newsgroup with a lot of posts that have nothing to sell it all harkens back to a certain user s post of a month or so ago stop posting computer equipment here save it for the computer forsale newsgroups if you don t get the computer forsale newsgroups then ask your sysadmin to try to subscribe to it at your location otherwise knock it off
misc.forsale	mac se forsale this is a repost of an earlier thanks to several of you for offering advise on realistic prices mac se megs ram meg hard disk k floppy in absolutely perfect condition includes word pagemaker quark xpress quicken and the latest versions of about a dozen other programs price
misc.forsale	canon camera system for sale i have the following canon items for sale the condition is listed as numerical indicates like new condition canon t body multiprogram ae dual metering system build in motor drive etc canon fd mm f canon fd mm f with canon bt hood excellent portrait lens osawa mm f zoom made in japan with soft case soligor mm f macro zoom japan with hard case vivitar sms d dedicated thyristor flash in box with manual asking obo s h not included if interested e mail huawang src umd edu or call
misc.forsale	gig fujitsu disk drive for sale gigabyte fujitsu disk drive internal drive model m a uses either a scsi or edi interface on your disk controller card brand new still in box never used only compare to in cheapest mail order catalogs posted for a friend pleade respond to jbredt athena
misc.forsale	hard drive for sale i had posted this before but the buyer fell through so here goes again western digital caviar meg ide hd inch drive has built in cache i believe it s k but i m not positive still in unopened original static bag asking obo
misc.forsale	sega cd forsale ok folks i am in need for some money to purchase a video game backup unit so i have decided to let go my sega cd unit heres the deal sega genesis cd rom unit o playes sega cd games o playes regular cd s o playes cd g s cd s w graphics o comes w cd s pack ins o sega s hot hits regular cd w music o rock paintings cd g music w graphics karoki like o sol feace shooter o sherlock holmes mystery clue book no docs o sega classics streets of rage revenge of shinobi columns golden axe no docs o box and documents cd unit included all games comes w jewels and documentation unless otherwise specified other games o cobra command docs have water dammage o road avenger weeks old o night trap no docs o all games come w jewels and documentation unless otherwise specified im going to sell all of this to the highest bidder as of i would like to start all of the above at or trade for a genesis snes video backup unit if you would like to bid or make an offer just drop me some mail i will keep everone informed of what the current bids are foxfire foxfire access digex com
misc.forsale	bare mb micronics system reduced bare case a power supply and a motherboard with ram and a coprocessor everything else is yours to add as you like the motherboard us made micronics slot motherboard with intel dx mhz cpu kb sram cache mb us ram using x mb simms worth alone cyrix d math coprocessor worth alone norton si rating of latest version phoenix bios the case power supply standard desktop case watt power supply with the usual connectors room for five floppy hard drives three visible two internal new micronics cpus often command a several hundred dollar premium over clone motherboards because they are us made use high quality components and are known to be both very reliable and compatible they have been oemed in systems sold by both gateway and zeos at various points in the past check out the ads in the back pages of byte or pc magazine if you want to see this price differential for yourself price complete less if you don t want need the case and power supply the board is fully guaranteed email for further details or for any questions thanks david ruggiero jdavid halcyon com seattle wa home of the moss people
misc.forsale	video audio computer equipment for sale time for some spring cleaning so the following items are up for sale roland mt multi timbre sound module la synthesis upto simultaneous voices preset timbres char backlit lcd display midi in out thru reference card stereo output etc great for games that support it music on the mt is far superior to any sound card experimenting with midi or for adding additional sounds to your midi setup shipping canon rc xapshot still video camera system includes camera carrying pouch battery pack battery charger ac adapter video cables two floppies each disk holds pictures for pics total manuals etc video output is standard ntsc composite and can be sent to any ntsc device e g to a television for direct viewing of your pictures to a vcr to record a slideshow to a computer video digitizer to save manipulate the pictures on a computer system shipping ambico video enhancer audio mixer three line stereo audio mixer with microphone input and master volume slider w video enhancer to boost sharpen video images when dubbing from vcr vcr camcorder vcr etc shipping baud pc internal modem shipping quantum mb internal prodrive hard disk this unit has recently turned unreliable and erratic in usage could be a simple easily fixed problem or a major problem but at any rate i don t have the time to find out where the problem lies if you want to take a risk on it you can have it for shipping if interested in any of the above items please email me s hsieh zeno ccwf cc utexas edu
misc.forsale	re video audio computer equipment for sale on apr i wrote quantum mb internal prodrive hard disk this unit has recently turned unreliable and erratic in usage could be a simple easily fixed problem or a major problem but at any rate i don t have the time to find out where the problem lies if you want to take a risk on it you can have it for shipping forgot to mention that the above mentioned quantum is a scsi drive s hsieh zeno ccwf cc utexas edu
misc.forsale	dragon s lair ii space ace arcade games for sale dragon s lair ii complete or laser disc motherboard joystick buttons graphics for arcade cabinet brick power supply space ace complete or laser disc motherboard joystick buttons graphics for arcade cabinet brick power supply both space ace and dragon s lair ii these games require a sony laserdisc player the nice thing about this player is that you can also watch normal laserdisc movies on it as well i have one which i will sell for by itself with a purchase of one complete system or if you buy both systems i currently run this into my entertainment center i have it housed in a pc computer case with with its own fan and power supply i run the audio into my stereo system and the laserdisc runs directly into the t v i have made a mount for the joysticks and the buttons first person who buys both games will get it all otherwise you have to do it yourself if you would prefer to have it all housed in a normal arcade cabinet this can be done as well the graphics will go nicely along the sides and front of the cabinet everything works perfectly the laserdisc player has an rs port which you can use to develop your own multimedia type applications the laserdiscs have been stored in a safe place and have no scratches on them if you are interested please email me thanks soren soren burkhart purdue university yes well that is just the sort of a i robotics blink headed pig ignorance i have zoron en ecn purdue edu come to expect from you non creative garbage john cleese monty python
misc.forsale	re unix pc software for sale 
misc.forsale	amiga software for sale i have the following amiga software for sale provideo gold amigavision b e s t plan it spreadsheet still in shrinkwrap superback hard drive backup certificate maker add s h to the above and its yours email me at the address listed below thanx dennis l neal dlneal cbda apgea army mil
misc.forsale	pin printer for sale i have the star micronics sg pin printer for sale i have used with the amiga and ibm computers and it works great i will throw in a cable and vinyl cover for plus shipping first email gets it thanx dennis l neal dlneal cbda apgea army mil i have gone to a laser printer is the only reason i am selling
misc.forsale	casio b o s s for sale i have a casio b o s s sf digital dairy organizer for sale the unit has kb with the expansion card slot very good condition asking plus shipping marc drmsr pitt edu
misc.forsale	borland software for sale cheap for sale turbo pascal all original manuals and disks obo shipping borland paradox with tall boxed manual set kallista desktop all original disks obo shipping borland paradox opened but never used all manuals disks obo shipping borland quattro pro dos all manuals disks obo shipping e mail or phone if interested john hansen john c hansen hansen logdis hq aflc af mil i am working on cse wsu bitnet a suitable quote cse desire wright edu john hansen
misc.forsale	re maxtor info needed was re unix pc software for sale in article colinm cunews colinm max carleton ca colin mcfadyen writes does anyone know what the jumpers should be set to on the maxtor i have a that came off of a vs that i would like to use on a pc from the maxtor product specification and oem manual doc rev f page j j power xxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx uuuu c c o o o o o o the only option you should jumper is the drive select shown as c c above there is also a drive power up option jumper elsewhere on the drive s board but the odds of that having been unset are slim since the b normally has only one hd you would jumper betwwwn c to select the first possible drive address if the is your second drive on the b then jumper between c thad floryan thad btr com thad cup portal com thad netcom com
misc.forsale	foot switches for sale i have foot switches for sale they re great for guitar amps and keyboards each is about in diameter with a or so cable i d like for both but make me an offer who knows jason settle down raise a family join the pta buy some sensible shoes and a chevrolet and party till you re broke and they drag you away it s ok al yankovic
misc.forsale	icom at for sale i am looking to sell my icom ic at and extras i have the following cm battery hs headset hs sa vox unit cigarette adapter leather case bc v wall charger ic bp battery also have one that needs a new cell i think its been a while it is in good condition has a scratch on the front that is not visible when in the leather case if you are interested make me an offer rich newsgrazer a nextstep tm news reader posting m uqr p n ve o g t fq c g w s ae e ec m eqm m g r i r w q c a f u s q w x p qt m q s r c x x s p eqt w s t c p x p uqt s m s c c qn vye s c f p f dd t o ven m r t r s ql uy e tt m a f at f s b h e m h f vql w i f z i tq b t y i rtq d v t m i rtq u fet i a f t a e ep a ae m b e i rtr v l r v r i ru f t r d m qs r h e n t t ye s f w e p d ai fll m et r b n vai i i det es en o v v n et n m h s w a h n h f f n t t es yo v i m fqe h x x ae qe h v s y ep u r i k g e f s d m me ue n f f r ep hm i va i b i
misc.forsale	items for sale must sell items for sale this package was bought throught a award give away company i attempted to cancel my order before i received the package but i was too late and the company refused to take the package back for refund i know the truth which i would never get my back but i wish to get my money back as close as possible here is the describtion of the package nishika d camera it takes very good picture never been opended or used it came with wide angle flesh carring case film and a instruction video it has four lens and created a d effect on a regular mm film jewelry it came with the package as additional gift bahama vacation voucher the voucher is good for two rt airfare to freeport the users get a special hotel rate of per person per night meals ground transfer hotel tax is not included las vegas reno orlando the voucher provides one rt airfare and hotel accomodation for days nights meals ground transfer hotel tax is not included the voucher is good for all locations but you can t travel to all places at once cancun mexico the voucher provides one rt airfare and hotel accomodation for days nights meals and ground transfer hotel tax is not included as usual i paid for the whole package so try not to be cold blooded when you make your offer details would be provided by request i do wish to sell the whole package at once so if you are just looking for the vacation vouchers i don t care if you sell the camera to other for a higher pric if you are interested in the camera you could treat the vacation vouchers as gift if you receive a letter in your mail box which says that you are selected to be part of the sweeptake and you have at least one out of five awards trust me you would get the exactly the same package as i did there is only one award which will be given away so don t bother even to call them back if you are really interested you could get it from me for a cheaper price and you could receive the package within a week i waited three months to get my first and final packages also they would ask for your credit card number and you have to pay for the interest to the credit card company so why spend more than you should when you could get them from me for a cheaper price if you are interested please reply to me as soon as posible i really wish to get this over with make me an offer if i am confortable with your offer i would send the package by u p s the next day morning more details could be given if you wish please contact me at koutd hirama hiram edu douglas kou hiram college e mail address koutd hirama hiram edu
misc.forsale	cds for sale update cds for sale shipping is included barcelona gold freddie mercury tevin campbell en vogue inxs madonna eric clapton sarah brightman wayne s world queen red hot chili peppers alice cooper eric clapton extreme ii pronograffitti saturday night live band live from new york harry connick jr blue light sold just open dances with woives sold handel classical sold please send your reply to koutd hirama hiram edu package deal is welcome douglas kou hiram college
misc.forsale	os extended services for sale cheap for sale os extended services extended database support extended networking support remote host support extended communication support plus a copy of os the es package is brand new and uninstalled all manuals disks etc are included the es package retails for with os selling for or something like that i ll let both of them go for my needs changed thus eliminating my need for the package once i bought it if interested please email me at mark teskey teskey plains nodak edu mark w teskey o internet teskey plains nodak edu stayin uucp uunet plains teskey alive hi i am a signature virus copy me into your signature to join in
misc.forsale	books for sale someone please buy these books i am not asking much just make me an offer and i will probably take it writing good software in fortran graham smith the holt handbook by kirszner mandell copyright page writing guide general chemistry principles modern applications r petrucci fourth edition big book very good condition solutions manual for chemistry book paperback study guide for chemistry book paperback send me your offers via email at chopin udel edu sam chopin udel edu
misc.forsale	mb external fd for ps extremely cheap subject external fd for ps extremely cheap i have a brand new external floppy drive for ps still in the box i will sell it for shipping firm which is half of the market price check page of computer shopper apr issue the price is there please let me know if you are interested ailin
misc.forsale	ld ext floppy drive for mac extremely cheap i have a brand new low density floppy drive for mac it comes with a brand new apple macintosh ii pc drive card so that you can hook the drive up to the card it allows you to use dos formatted disks i am selling it for abt retail price ailin buyers pay shipping
misc.forsale	unix sale unix unix unix unix unix unix unix forsale esix unix system v release new user license system unlimited user license system user license system with dev kit unlimited user license system with dev kit the above systems include all of the floppies or tapes and instalation manuals they are new and have never been installed before market value for the above systems is about us if you are interested please contact me at thanks mike mike budlanski canrem com canada remote systems toronto ontario
misc.forsale	re jazz cd sale trade sell it for then i can t really offer more than at this point thanks jon
misc.forsale	re classic cds sale hey i can t send mail to you so could you please resend me your address i lost it for h in moscow thanks jon
misc.forsale	lots of cds for sale i have a lot of cds for sale prices are per cd and per cd single cds are noted by cd and cd singles by cds please include extra per cd for s h costs if you want to buy a lot of them then we ll work out a deal with the shipping costs type group title cds boys to men motown philly cds c c music factory keep it comin cds moby go remixes cds quadrophonia schizophrenia cds swing out sister not gonna change cds recoil faith healer cds seal the beginning cds transvision vamp tranvision vamp cds c c music factory gonna make u sweat cds nitzer ebb godhead cds roxette how do you do cds b s good stuff cds duran duran violence of summer cds nitzer ebb as is cds vanessa williams running back to you cd seal seal cd lfo frequencies cd morissey kill uncle cd underworld change the weather cd jody watley you wanna dance with me cd dead or alive fan the flame cd transvision vamp velveteen cd adam ant manners physique cd fine young cannibals the raw the remix cd black box dreamland cd civilles cole greatest remixes vol cd black box mixed up cd scorpions the best of rockers ballads cd a m underground dance jam harder dan church quote only god can make a tree but it took a man box cs mail to invent dwarf tossing socorro nm email dchurch nmt edu e hobbs
misc.forsale	klipsch forte spkrs sale item klipsch forte speakers condition mint age months old price pair retail pair these speakers are in perfect condition and used only in audiophile system they are floor standing and come with all the original packagaing and literature they are also still under warranty if you are interested or have any questions please feel free to e mail pc o andrew cmu edu or call me at home thanks jon
misc.forsale	squirrel hill studio squirrel hill studio efficiency available in mid may my lease is expiring on perfect for someone looking for temporary housing or someone who wants to stay beyond july nice short walk to cmu month plenty of parking space on street quiet neighborhood nearly new carpet call
misc.forsale	syquest internal drive with cartridges sale or trade this drive is less than one year old the cartridges have all been bought since then all is in excellent condition and still under warranty due to a change in system use i now need a large contiguous drive offer includes sydos i internal drive scsi adapter card and cables all original documentation software all original packaging cartridges totalling over mb no bad sectors or defects the installation was a breeze on my clone i will trade for something near mb ide or sell for i will also consider trading for mx pin simms at ns walter g seefeld by the dawn s early light n jackson st a by all i know is right starkville ms we re going to reap what we have sown n qxr jackson brown
misc.forsale	rasterops xl i have a video board for sale for macintosh nu bus machines my other deal fell through i am asking rasterops xl x x this was incorrectly posted as x before x x hz hz x make offers by mail rj kohlhepp novell systems staff kohlhepp cae wisc edu computer aided engineering
misc.forsale	sci fi books for sale best offer i would like to sell the following sci fi books at best offer if you are interested please email an offer and be sure to include shipping and handling i prefer not to ship cod but if you purchase or more i will consider han solo and the lost legacy han solo s revenge han solo at stars end splinter in the minds eye the empire strikes back star wars star trek the motion picture star trek wrath of kahn the official star trek trivia book star trek reader vol i star trek reader vol ii these are the book form of the star trek reader vol iii original tv series star trek reader vol iv dune dune messiah children of dune god emperor of dune altered states alien close encounters of the third kind dragonslayer the mists of avalon the compleat book of sowrds the lost swords a space odyssey odyssey ii odyssey iii barlowes complete guide to extratresstials again best offer and don t be shy thanks loyd seq uncwil edu amiga tower megs hd space vxl mhz w mhz fpu megs bit ram supra zi modem sony kv cr monitor wangtek meg tb
misc.forsale	klipsch kg speakers like new shipping one pair of kg s in oak finish with black grilles includes original packaging shipping firm walter g seefeld by the dawn s early light n jackson st a by all i know is right starkville ms we re going to reap what we have sown n qxr jackson brown
misc.forsale	turbografx system for sale take everything for turbografx base unit works like new with controller ac adapter antenna hookup games kieth courage victory run fantasy zone military madness battle royal legendary axe blazing lasers bloody wolf will sell games separatley at each please call mike day eves
misc.forsale	eric bosco where are you eric send me email with your address i lost it i ve reconsidered kevin
misc.forsale	typewriter w computer interface i have the following item for sale electronic typewriter panasonic kt with k memory small lcd display i m selling it bundled with a panasonic computer interface rpk for this typewriter you can connect it to any pc parallel port sorry no cable it works perfect even in windows tty printer it s great if you need to send letter with typewriter look in stand alone mode it has pitches and several effects like underline bold overstrike built in dictionary and character word line correction asking for both the typewriter and the interface jorge lach sun microsystems computer corporation jorge lach east sun com east coast division chelmsford ma
misc.forsale	wanted summer housing seattle univ of washington summer housing needed at university of washington seattle hi i am looking for a place to stay for the summer at the university of washington seattle where i would be doing an internship if any of you from uofw seattle has got some kind of space for summer sublet please send an email call to me i expect to start my internship in the first week of june koshy george george cs umass edu koshy george puffton village amherst ma h o
misc.forsale	casio cz key synth bo ok i ve done a little research and the price i ve been asking was a bit high so casio cz synthesizer or best offer features uses fm modulation to create sounds programmable adsr envelopes for each of dca s amplitude dcw s pitch like a vcf and dco s waveform like vco with up to steps for each preset sounds more in memory more still in ram cartridge stubby keys pitch bend wheel midi in out ports includes all the manuals you could ever want ac adapter can use d batteries line cord ram cartridge holds additional sounds i ll throw in a bunch of sheet music and play rock keyboards too christopher holmes do not insert this email in the ear canal terminals development group my evil twin blew up the world trade center data general corporation and all i got was this stupid sig file westboro ma internet holmes mrx webo dg com
misc.forsale	windows new for sale i have a windows package for sale new stil in shrink wrapped i am asking for i will consider to trade a used m floppy drive leave a message if interested
misc.forsale	slide projectors trade for photo equipments there are many people want to buy my kodak autofocus carousel projectors but i don t have lenses or remote to sell they prefer to buy a projector with all accessaries so i have to post another news asking for lenses to fit those kodak slide projectors i am willing to give away singer caramate ii or singer caramete sp w built in unremovable lens built in casette player speaker new hr bulb try to trade for kodak projector lenses each projector viewer will equal trade for or kodak projector lenses depend on the focal length i will pay for the shipping for singer projector viewer since i don t need those singer projectors if you have some mm slr system you don t need i am willing to do the trade as well yuesea
misc.forsale	oscilloscope for sale probes ea i have a tektronix t mhz scope for sale it is a nice simple unit to learn on i used it while i was in school if you want one to play with at home this is easy and inexpensive it has a nice handle and is quite lightweight and easy to move around i will consider selling the probes seperately for ea they are hp a probes suitable for this type of scope the probes are not included in the price of for the scope if you need more technical info you will have to come look at it as i am not a scope expert and what i have said is all i know chris
misc.forsale	camcorder sony mm forsale it is years old model ccd v x zoom everything works perfectly uses mm tapes not hi that was not around years ago plus shipping or best offer gregg weber let it be open and bright like the sky gregg netcom com without taking sides with no clouds of concepts kun mkhyen klong chen pa
misc.forsale	re dx cpu chip for sale in article c qoby n utdallas edu goyal utdallas edu mohit k goyal writes dx cpu chip for sale shipping if you like to pay for the please refer to he is selling for that cpu correct may be high now that amd has started selling clones indeed word is intel s lawsuit against amd was absolutely thrown out of court monday amd said they would be shipping chips with the intel instruction set next week chip prices are going to go through the floor mark my words regards gordon waters clyde gordon bme georgia institute of technology atlanta ga out of the mountain of despair we can hew the stone of hope mlk jr uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism gt a internet gt a prism gatech edu
misc.forsale	complete system for sale dx mhz dtk motherboard intel microprocessor k internal cache megs ram meg harddrive ide controller meg floppy drive meg floppy drive serial ports parallel port samsung vga monitor vga graphics card key keyboard baud internal modem ms dos procomm plus ver norton utilities ver other varius utilities i m upgrading and need to sell the system is reliable and ready to go i ve never had any problems with it i m asking o b o if you re interested please respond by either e mail or phone tae zeus tamu edu or thanks andrew
misc.forsale	pin printer for sale as well i have a pin printer which is an alps allegro it s both a fast printer with lq and a very sophisticated design it has a straight paper path and the capability of auto forwarding sheets to tear off and then back a big paper saver as you never have to waste sheets to get a current print out it can also handle single sheets without removing the formfeed and has sophisticated preferences options you can interactively program all the preferences to control the printer and get printed feedback without ever using a computer you get prompts and menus to pick your current setup and default set up this was the top of the line lq dot matrix when i bought it three years ago for it is also epson lq compatible besides it s own modes and comes with ibm driver software which i ve never used since i own an amiga has a card slot for upgrading memory or fonts i ll let it go for including shipping prepaid cod orders must pay all shipping and cod costs adisak pochanayon also a light gun and uforce controller for nintendo but with pd driver software to use them on the amiga the light gun is fully remote no wires best offer over less than my cost and they are both brand new cut here jeez it never fails get in the tub and there s a rub at the lamp the genie from aladdin pochanay cae wisc edu eddie adisak pochanayon check out all of silverfox software s releases your amiga entertainment cut here
misc.forsale	raichle ski boots for sale size i also have a pair of size raichle flexon comps these boots are black and yellow they are in good condition i would like around for them also but feel free to make an offer please reply to crane coral bucknell edu thanks curt
misc.forsale	roland juno synthesizer uniden radar detector sale roland juno synthesizer excellent condition great fat analog sound used in the song jump by van halen or best offer uniden rd xl radar detector excellent condition don t be caught by the cops or best offer smaller than a credit card compact for the keyboard email greg park dartmouth edu for the radar email rich lee dartmouth edu ciao
misc.forsale	win dos misc software help me make money for a new modem takes it all shipping not included in price all original documentation disks are include some software unregistered others will have letter for transfer of ownership will sell software seperately purchase must be greater than purchases over get choice of two software selections with footnote w windows x version d dos version r registered letter of transfer u unregistered special offer ms windows ms windows resource kit bound ed wr norton desktop for windows wr ms excel wr gateway version all docs disks ms this is the real thing it only shipped with my computer microcourier wu communucations software ms entertainment pack i wr microprose s gunship vga only du links pro dr includes bountiful golf course wing commander ii vengeance of the kilrathi dr f strike eagle ii dr risk ega du easyflow du brand new never used quicken dr franklin language master dr not a spell checker but a dictionary tsr that pops up for any dos app each word has direct link to the thesaurus ibm dos dr total discount your cost call michael any day between a p est or leave e mail thanks vbreader v bush presidency aborted recovery hopeful
misc.forsale	cd s for sale th following cd s are for sale each cd cost except otherwise indicated which includes shipping and handling achtung baby u joshua tree u the immaculate collection madonna love hurts cher garth brooks garth brooks red hot chilli peppers ooooohhhhh tlc light and shadows wilson used only once never used most of them are still in shrink wraps please email to kgc woods ulowell edu
misc.forsale	computers for sale pc and amiga its time for a little house cleaning after my pc upgrade i have the following for sale leading technology pc partner sytsem includes mhz intel cpu mb ide drive brand new canabalized from new system and floppies meg ram vga congroller kb dos on hard drive need to get for system at style kb logitech serial trackman with latest drivers amiga with roms installed and mb video ram and mb addon ram clone k ram and clock roctec addon disk ide disk controller includes scsi option quantum mb scsi drive with lots of software mb x mb simm installed in roctec amiga dos icd flicker fixer ii asking for system i will part out the amiga make an offer amiga software cando textcraft plus tetris welltris for both sword of sodam qix carmen sandiego crossword construction kit canadian prototype replicas cd rom fast file system hypermedia cd rom containing fred fish disks includes registration card low cost upgrades amiga hardware reference man amiga to vga monitor cable two joysticks each prices do not include shipping contact rich garrett email richg sequent com home work ooo o rich garrett o oo richg sequent com o work o o
misc.forsale	mives sale update vhs movie for sale kevin costner dances withs wolves just open and was used once or best offer buyer will have to pay shipping for shipping let me know if you are interested and send your offer to this e mail address koutd hirama hiram edu thanks douglas kou hiram college
misc.forsale	nubus ntsc genlock card f sale computer friends nubus card good for doing graphics overlays on your videos etc with apple bit vid card without wont sell vid card separately ups u pay shipping cheers mike
misc.forsale	thule roof rack with bike accessories take it all for sale a thule car rack with bike holder accessories comes with nissan pathfinder brackets but you can buy the appropriate ones for your car cheap looking for for everything i live in the bethesda area thanks for your interest james l olds ph d neural systems section domain olds helix nih gov ninds nih bethesda md usa
misc.forsale	update hard drive vga etc article crossposted from misc forsale computers pc clone author was mark wilson posted on fri apr gmt update for sale items all plus shipping core mb hard drive model at works fine full height reduced to mfm controller for the above would like to sell with above have asking price but will sell with above for combined at style case in process of selling vga card k now asking max version now asking please email mark ocsmd ocs com or use phone s below mark mark wilson online computer systems or try email address mark ocsmd ocs com this file disclaims everything signed with my signature i mean it mark wilson online computer systems or try email address mark ocsmd ocs com this file disclaims everything signed with my signature i mean it
misc.forsale	smartcam version for sale and dx smartcam version for sale purchased in august latest version also willing to sell dx mg hard drive multi scan monitor paid for software and for computer also includes yr maintanence contract that can be updated every year for apx per year make offer call or ask for terry
misc.forsale	hp calculator for greetings hp s forsale comes with case no manuals excellent condition asking for if interested please e mail today al
misc.forsale	house for sale in mercerville nj i am posting this for a friend please do not respond to me thanks house for sale brockton road mercerville new jersey description beautiful bedroom bath cape cod located on a large tastefully landscaped corner with fenced in lot this home features an eat in kitchen with built in corner china closet a large living room wall to wall carpeting hardwood floors new ceramic tile foyer and freshly painted neutral tone decor this home includes new central air and heating new roof new water heater aluminum siding storm windows and doors and rockwell insulation in all exterior walls also features a new partially finished basement with an outside entrance and new duro shed lots of storage space convenient to rt extras dishwasher washer and dryer ceiling fans and window treatments call for appointment at open house on sunday april th call for directions
misc.forsale	re moving sale reduced prices i have a list of things forsale on behalf of my brother who s moving moved already offer black and decker duster plus portable hand vaccum purchased for sr dual cassette portable player am fm band graphics equalizer high speed dubing duo tape tape deck a seems to have lost treble sound but i bet it s fixable purchased for monolux zoom microscope up to x magnification made in japan includes case and accessories purchased for sunbeam hair dryer the dryer you put your head under into you know the ones you see in the salons don t ask me why my bro had it purchased for everylast speed bag all leather brand new never used osterizer pusle matic blender with speeds and a cookbook years old purchased for binolux binoculars x extra wide angle ft at yds with case very new proctor and silex spray steam and dry iron very new any questions contact me thru e mail and i will reply expeditously and always s h are not included so please consider this and lastly i m a very reasonable very reasonable thanks john
misc.forsale	mac classic ii mac classic for sale year old excellent condition includes dustcovers freeware shareware including many fonts email or call sf bay area forman ide com things that are real are given and received sun ide forman in silence m b
misc.forsale	wanted tg games player or more well the title says it all i m looking to buy cheap used tg gmaes which have or more player support simultaneous please email me all offers with a price rohit
misc.forsale	re moving sale reduced prices i have a list of things forsale on behalf of my brother who s moving moved already offer black and decker duster plus portable hand vaccum purchased for sr dual cassette portable player am fm band graphics equalizer high speed dubing duo tape tape deck a seems to have lost treble sound but i bet it s fixable purchased for monolux zoom microscope up to x magnification made in japan includes case and accessories purchased for sunbeam hair dryer the dryer you put your head under into you know the ones you see in the salons don t ask me why my bro had it purchased for everylast speed bag all leather brand new never used osterizer pusle matic blender with speeds and a cookbook years old purchased for binolux binoculars x extra wide angle ft at yds with case very new proctor and silex spray steam and dry iron very new any questions contact me thru e mail and i will reply expeditously and always s h are not included so please consider this and lastly i m a very reasonable very reasonable thanks john
misc.forsale	in case a deal is a lemon hi to all since all of you could also be a seller as well as a buyer i d like to bring this issue for discussion what would be the best solution in case a deal became a lemon as i understand most people selling things over the net do not grant a warranty i am in such a situation that the seller did not state whether a warranty would be granted or not and the item i received is out of order the seller insisted that it was in good condition when he sent it and so would just return half ofthe amount that i paid if i send the item back to him and after he is sured it is bad is this reasonable basically i would like to believe the seller tells the truth also i am positively to say that i ve not done anything wrong which might cause the failure of the thing my assumption here is everyone is honest so rule out the possibility that either one of the two parties or both are liars i would like to hear your opinion either in here or directly respond to my e mail address i know there is such a risk that you could lose money but how can we make it enjoyable to most people and not wasting the bandwidth chein
misc.forsale	w power supplies two lh research sm power supplies sm series w v a currently wired for vac control lines sense on off pwr fail high low margin and current monitor the list price from lh research is each for qty asking for the pair steve glicker austin texas steve titan tsd arlut utexas edu
misc.forsale	re expen ive motorola handheld radio for peanuts jeff later writes motorola expo vhf watt chan ht new would like or best offer i m sure that the motorola is worth it but this kind of thing has always mystified me is the price of very good new dual band fully synthasized ht yes yes i know motorola hts are bullet proof unbreakable plutonium based indestructable you can drive a tank over them and they ll still work but just how often does that come up why are hams willing and they are to spend the price of a synthaszied dual bander for a channel xtal rig note this is not a flame as i said i m sure this is a good deal for this rig i m just amazed that it is a good deal i would have guessed that a channel xtal rig could never be worth as much as a dual bander to a ham no matter how durable just shows you how wrong i can be mike n pdy these are my opinions only
misc.forsale	books for sale cheap someone please buy these books i am not asking much just make me an offer and i will probably take it calculus w analytic geometry by authur b simon copyright date below avg condition but still readable writing good software in fortran graham smith the holt handbook by kirszner mandell copyright page writing guide algebra trigonometry a problem solving approach rd edition by w flemming and d varberg very good condition general chemistry principles modern applications r petrucci fourth edition big book very good condition solutions manual for chemistry book paperback study guide for chemistry book paperback send me your offers via email at chopin udel edu sam chopin udel edu
misc.forsale	re is itproper net etiquette to advertise a company s junk mail list in article apr leland stanford edu thomper leland stanford edu dale buford thompson writes in article c jccg bn tsoft net you write stuff deleted my company maintains a mailing list which is regularly rented for more stuff deleted ted it is my impression that net etiquette does not allow companies to use the net to directly advertise their products in addition to improper etiquette this product is a mailing list used for generating junk mail am i correct in assuming this is improper and if so what can be done to penalize such an improper use dale thompson well dale i d say offhand keel hauling would work pretty well we haven t had a good keel hauling in a long time sorry it came up in a conversation yesterday and well i just love that phrase or maybe just ask for folks to flood the guys mailbox with the faq for net etiquitte sort of poetic justice for all the junk mail he was trying to generate anyway tom t tom testagrossa e mail ttesta kali enet dec com us mail clarendon st apt fitchburg ma u s a phone work voicemail home ask me about my guitars
misc.forsale	for sale sega genesis system my roommate is selling a sega genesis system with sonic i in very nice condition for obo please respond via email to pathall as arizona edu alternate email addresses are phall noao edu and moe ccit arizona edu thanks pat hall
misc.forsale	mazda pickup college pro student painters look mazda pickup rebuilt engine at miles new transmission speed miles new brakes new brake calipers brand new clutch only miles on it professional ladder racks can hold up to ladders cylinder gets miles to the gallon fog lights tach runs great all inquires should write back or call i will have it saturday afternoon and sunday if you would like to take a look at it phone if your are painting this summer this is an excellent vehicle to use andy feigin prodigy rwbp d
misc.forsale	game boy games wanted i m looking for some game boy games please e mail me with your list and offers thanks also if you have a game boy you want to get rid of please tell me chris
misc.forsale	moving sale moving sale must sell before may futon high end oak queen like new computer desk roll top locks securely like new color tv perfect cond great for bedroom sold coffee tables dresser or b o lamps make an offer ask for esther eve day
misc.forsale	warriors tickets for sale warriors tickets for sale i have tickets that i can t use last pair this year section row p seats day date opponent time wed sacremento price my cost call or email if you are interested in these tickets lorne johnson lorne sun com
misc.forsale	sony receiver and ten disc changer for sale for sale str av audio receiver watts per channel dolby surround sound with pro logic learning programmable remote watts per channel for surround sound supports dual room link control to hear another source in a different room index filing of all radio stations band equilizer with real time analyzer i need to get for this unit or best offer cdp c sony ten disc changer ten disc cartridge custom file of your favorite program or title or volume for each disc up to disc memory remote control fixed and variable volume outputs optical output x oversampling rate firm i purchased these items about months ago and need to sell them now to buy a house both units are in immaculate shape and are priced to move steven walsh walshs cs uwp edu
misc.forsale	indiana jones hint book wanted looking for hint book for indiana jones and the last crusade the game is for the ibm e mail me or call and ask for orion if you don t have the hint book but know how to answer these questions plao how do you beat biff how do you open the valt door how do you knock out the security system
misc.forsale	re car stereo stolen i had the front panel of my car stereo stolen this weekend i need to buy the front panel of a sony xr u car stereo if by any chance anyone has had the body of a sony xr u stolen and has an otherwise useless front panel i would love to buy it from you if you know anyone who had a removeable front panel car stereo stolen from them could you please forward this message to them thanks kris i was my understanding that the purpose of those removeable front panels were to make the radio useless and thus discourage theft that is if the cover were removed by the owner and taken along whenever the car was left if those covers were sold for anything remarkably less than the radio originally costs or even sold at all then the above discouragement wouldn t be so great i personally would be unhappy if i bought a radio like that thinking that removing the cover greatly depreciated the radio s value and the covers were sold by the company or other legitimate source cheaply if you cut here you d ruin your monitor kenneth d ray expert someone who knows more and more crc ocis about less and less and finally rice university knows everything about nothing
misc.forsale	looking for a person vhs for sale i am looking for a person who made an offer of for five of my vhs movies i was not able to save the e mail address of this person it has been a week since we made the deal please reply the five movies are basic instinct born on the forth of july backdraft the prince of tides presumed innocent douglas kou hiram college
misc.forsale	home base and car cb units motorola beeper for sale uniden channel cb transceiver model pro e this is a home base unit with connectors for external speaker and pa speaker x internal speaker chanel button nb anl pa selector buttons volume squelch rf gain tone and mic gain controls comes with mic side mount for mic measures x x plugs into v black like new actually brand new asking shipping included midland international model c chanel car unit this one is well used black w silver front comes with mic power cord for v cigarette lighter socket gutter mount antena is also included easy to install and remove asking shipping included or both for including shipping the uniden alone is about in kmart these two will work nicely together have one in the garage and one in your truck motorola beeper i can t quite figure out what is the model number cost is to buy from usamobile don t use this no more
misc.forsale	the abyss on laserdisc article crossposted from temple forsale author was ray lauff ray astro ocis temple edu posted on wed apr gmt regular cbs fox release of the wide screen edition of the movie the abyss for sale asking including postage i want to purchase the new director s cut and would like to unload this laserdisc if possible two discs unopened minutes letterbox email me if interested ray astro ocis temple edu ray ray lauff temple university computer services ray lauff astro temple edu ray lauff temple university computer services ray lauff astro temple edu
misc.forsale	photo stuff forsale time to clear out some miscellaneous lenses cameras and photo stuff that s not being used some are gems some are mundane minolta af lens for maxxum cameras new lens but i guess it d be best to call it a demo since i did not get the literature box or warranty cards vivitar x converter for nikon f or ai lenses pretty cute flip back tang so it will work with all manual focus nikon lenses and bodies it will even couple and double a non ai lens to an ai body pentax screwmount lens well actually it s a super takumar which is what they all were back then very mint condition nice hard case for this lens more alpex lens beautifully made all metal construction with fine optics minolta mount another hard case that fits this with strap can be added call it more vivitar flash the one that made vivitar famous until the eclipsed it tilt head removable sensor variable auto exposure universal roamer folding old bellows camera with leather case uses or film mm f lens kinda cool articulated shutter release decent shape weston lightmeter nothin super fancy but it works well and is a good cross check to built in meters with case and strap and finally the gems pentax auto camera with mm f lens this is the little and i do mean tiny slr that pentax made has interchangeable lenses but try and find the zoom true through the lens viewing with split image focus and completely auto exposure olympus rc rangefinder camera a really cute little camera with mm lens f with built in manual or auto exposure self timer etc i think this was the predecessor to the xa and it s nearly all metal i won t mind holding onto this one if it doesn t sell olympus om with flash shoe leatherette case zuiko lens and tokina sd super dispersion lens these are all in very nice to mint condition except for one little ding on the om body near the film advance lever lenses are perfect and the tokina is a very compact and sharp lens for the set that ll do to clean out some of the stuff feel free to offer on this stuff although the cheaper stuff is priced to cover my hassle in shipping it for more details call or email alan l peterman hm work al qiclab scn rain com it s odd how as i get older the days are longer but the years are shorter
misc.forsale	software forsale lots software publishing superbase windows v ocr system readright v for windows ocr system readright v for dos unregistered zortech bit c compiler v with multiscope windows debugger whitewater resource toolkit library source code glockenspiel imagesoft commonview windows applications framework for borland c spontaneous assembly library with source code microsoft macro assembly microsoft windows v sdk documentation microsoft foxpro v wordperfect developer s toolkit kedwell software databoss v c code generator kedwell installboss v installation generator liant software c views v windows application framework with source code ibm os developer s toolkit cbtree dos windows library with source code symantec timeline for windows timeslip timesheet professional for windows many more software books available price negotiable
misc.forsale	okidata printer for sale fellow netters i have an okidata printer i would like to sell a description follows okidata printer including cables for both ibm compatibles centronics parallel and commodore rs round also includes power cable manual and a handful of computer paper to get you started this is a pin printer i recently cleaned the printhead and installed a new ribbon a print sample can be provided upon request this is a very dependable printer it never jams or does weird things i have used it with a commodore for about years and am now using it with my sx i use mainly wordperfect see next post for which i got a driver at no charge that directly supports the okidata in epson fx mode when i got the printer it was selling for around new i got mine from tenex brand new for a christmas present i would like to get about or so for it if you are interested at all in it please give me a ring e mail and make an offer kevin harter
misc.forsale	auction marvel dc valiant image dark horse etc i am auctioning off the following comics these minimum bids are set below what i would normally sell them for make an offer and i will accept the highest bid after the auction has been completed title minimum current alpha flight jim lee s first work at marvel aliens st app aliens in comics st prnt may krism twice amazing spider man intro new green goblin amazing spider man st appearance hobgoblin archer and armstrong frank miller smith layton avengers st appearance x factor bloodshot chromium cover bwsmith cover poster daredevil frank miller art begins dark horse presents st app concrete st printing detective azrael appears intro cypher harbinger st appearance h a r d corps b matthey sold h a r d corps incredible hulk st app grey hulk since incredible hulk st mcfarlane issue incredible hulk grey hulk series begins incredible hulk st dale keown art in hulk incredible hulk st all new hulk st prnt keown marvel comics presents wolverine silver surfer maxx limited ashcan copies exist blue cover brentb twice mr t signed advance copy exist new mutants mcfarlane cover st app cable cameo new mutants st app x force new mutants annual st liefeld art on new mutants omega men st appearance lobo omega men st full lobo story power man iron fist rd appearance sabretooth th appearance sabretooth simpsons comics and stories polybagged special ed spectacular spider man st app new hobgoblin star trek the next generation feb dc mini star trek the next generation oct dc comics trianglehead special limited edition autogrphed web of spider man hobgoblin wolverine appear web of spider man origin rose hobgoblin appears wolverine before claws st battle with sabretooth wolverine sabretooth claims to be wolverine s dad wolverine sabretooth proven not to be his dad wolverine sabretooth wolverine saga concludes wolverine mini series miller art wonder woman return of animal man x force signed by liefeld bagged x force card x force signed by liefeld bagged shatterstar card x force signed by liefeld bagged deadpool card x force signed by liefeld bagged sunspot gideon all comics are in near mint to mint condition are bagged in shiny polypropylene bags and backed with white acid free boards shipping is for one book for more than one book or free if you order a large enough amount of stuff i am willing to haggle i have thousands and thousands of other comics so please let me know what you ve been looking for and maybe i can help some titles i have posted here don t list every issue i have of that title i tried to save space geoffrey r mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department of psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university of florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
misc.forsale	a few cds for sale brand new each add for postage th class that makes it all these discs are still shrink wrapped kathleen battle wynton marsalis baroque duet sony classical david sanborn upfront elektra kenny g live arista jimmy buffett songs you know by heart greatest hits mca records billy ray cyrus some gave all mercury en vogue funky divas eastwest records
misc.forsale	not all deals are bad fellow netters i just wanted to let you know that there are a few honest and good people out there even outside of iowa i m sorry if anyone thinks that i am wasting space but i thought you might want some relief from the so and so is a thief posts not that i think we shouldn t hear about the bad deals but it would be nice to hear some good news once in a while after seeing his post on one of the for sale groups i mailed mr mark miller a request for his copy of wordperfect for dos he suggested a price of in his ad but when i phoned him he quoted plus shipping that sounded more than fair to me so i told him that i would send him a check the next day imagine my surprise when i logged into my account the following day and found a message from him saying that it had already been sold after i had just mailed the money order after another e mail message to him he apologized and assured me that it was a mistake i was the one who he was holding it for he sent the package as soon as he got the money along with a letter stating a transfer of license this wasn t good enough for wordperfect so i asked him to fill out one of their forms no problem we thought it took three times to get it to the right address my fault anyway he mailed me the form for my signature and included a workbook that i had no idea was included in the deal again he apologized for not sending it before i now have the world s best word processor and a renewed hope in the world that there are a few good ones left i recoend that if you ever see that mark is selling anything thatat you may want give him a call if i had the choice i would purchase all of my software from him bravo mr miller kevin harter
misc.forsale	re car stereo stolen in article c t qg ij rice edu xray is rice edu kenneth dwayne ray writes i had the front panel of my car stereo stolen this weekend i need to buy the front panel of a sony xr u car stereo i was my understanding that the purpose of those removeable front panels were to make the radio useless and thus discourage theft that is if the cover were removed by the owner and taken along whenever the car was left if those covers were sold for anything remarkably less than the radio originally costs or even sold at all then the above discouragement wouldn t be so great i personally would be unhappy if i bought a radio like that thinking that removing the cover greatly depreciated the radio s value and the covers were sold by the company or other legitimate source cheaply the front covers should be available from sony check with a local car stereo shop you will probably definitely have to provide the units serial number and hopefully you had registered the warranty card i don t know the cost but replacements have to be available to people who damage the face cover so it stands to reason that it can be replaced as to deterring theft when i worked for a stereo shop we referred the customer to a sony number we would not sell the face nor did we have them available most people who came in asking for the face cover or a pullout sleave for that matter would look very disheartened to find that they acquired a deck they couldn t use if theft occurs with these decks notify sony serial numbers do catch theives just a thought michael
misc.forsale	re is itproper net etiquette to advertise a company s junk mail list not only is it improper etiquette and illegal but the people who are responsible for junk mailings are evil ahhh ive always wanted to get that off my chest
misc.forsale	aviation headset d c h for sale for sale david clark h aviation headset excellent condition not even a scratch original packaging discover for yourself why the h continues to be the favorite headset of thousands of pilots it was the first headset to have the advanced m amplified electret microphone with a frequency response specifically designed to match the human voice also includes durable universal boom assembly and a noise reduction rating nrr of db weighs oz includes telex push to talk switch asking u s shipping negotiable for more information respond to afhetzel netcom com andrew andrew f hetzel i complete less work before am than afhetzel netcom com most people do all day ann arbor mi usa
misc.forsale	vax pricing hello all goucher college will soon be retiring a microvax ii world case mb hard drives port i o mb maybe mb system memory any idea as to how much we can expect to get for this machine on the open market please reply privately to tim marshall goucher wb ffv ampr org thanks in advance tim marshall associate director academic computing goucher college baltimore md all opinions are mine alone documentation a manual which tells you how to use a program system or utility one version ago and which is now unsupported
misc.forsale	ibm games for sale i would like to sell some software shipping is per order or more games in the continental u s to canada contact me for shipping to other locations contraption zack perfect condition unregistered all docs disks packaging a d puzzle game with great animated graphics your tools for fixing up a manufacturing plant are hidden throughout the levels and you must solve puzzles to get the tools and then use the tools to fix the machines the levels are huge and span many screens the graphics are cartoony and humorous color vga mcga adlib soundblaster roland legend of kyrandia perfect condition unregistered all docs disks packaging an adventure where you are the unknowing heir to the throne of the kingdom of kyrandia an evil jester has murdered your parents the king and queen and attempted to take control of the kingdom only to be thwarted by a spell cast upon him by your grandfather and three other magic users you must travel to find each of the magic users to gain use of an amulet that will help you to defeat the jester beautiful graphics and a great soundtrack vga mcga adlib sound blaster soundblaster pro mt lapc spirit of excalibur by virgin mastertronic good condition all docs disks packaging a fantasy game combining role playing adventure and combat simulation you are the heir to the throne of britain after arthur has died you must re unite the land under your rule and then defend it against an invading army from the north ega tandy mcga vga sound cards loom perfect condition unregistered all docs disks packaging received a computer gaming world award for artistic achievement an adventure game where you play the role of a young weaver of musical spells you must save your fellow weavers from oblivion by traveling through the land casting spells learning new spells befriending people you meet and foiling an evil plot all point and click no typing every action in the game involves casting your musical spells vga ega cga mcga tandy adlib cms sound dark seed perfect condition used very little unregistered all docs disks packaging an adventure based on the surrealistic and macabre artwork of h r giger the inspiration for alien alien iii and poltergeist ii you have just bought an old victorian house at a bargain in a secluded town you find that there is a portal to a dark sinister world in your house and a plot against the world as you know it you must save yourself and your world from a horrible fate gorgeous and gory high resolution graphics vga adlib soundblaster conquest of japan by impressions brand new used only once unregistered all docs disks packaging simulation of samurai conquest you play the role of a japanese daimyo a lord you control five cities on japan s main island honshu each provides money for you to buy armies with which you must conquer your enemy battles are fought with impressions miniature system you watch the individual samurai mounted samurai spearmen archers and arquebusiers vga adlib
misc.forsale	new hard drive sale seagate gb scsi hard drive brand new with full factory warranty fh ms access time mtbf only s h leave e mail if interested
misc.forsale	technical books for sale x unix c c os db netwk repost my friends and i have a buch of books for sale they are not being used due to change of job loss of interest etc rather than letting them gather dust we would like to pass them on to others who may use them of course at a price topics include c c other programming languages unix dos os windows other operating system topics general x motif olit xwin networking and digital signal processing computer graphics microprocessors and computer architecture math software engineering algorithms software testing databases expert systems the list is long and rather than posting it here i will email it by request i am going to keep the list updated and so will respond to all requests lucky me if you are interested drop me a line s alavi ssa unity ncsu edu h
misc.forsale	nikon fm and lens forsale nikon fm n with mm nikkor and accessories for sale i bought this camera in hong kong two years ago and everything has been looked after very well i m now selling some more gear to finance my next big film project asking for package no bargains
misc.forsale	nitendo game wanted hi i am one those uncles that try to please my nephews whenever possible so they have asked me to find them some nitendo games no it is not for the super nitendo it is for whatever model came prior to that since they are overseas i will first ask them if they already have the games you would have to offer me please send me a list or whatever and the price you are asking so i can send to my nephews and find out what they have and what they want so bare with me i will respond but it will take me a while thanks walter walter psg com please respond directly portland oregon usa walter t morales n w internet walter rain com pop
misc.forsale	cds for i have the following cds for sale for each plus postage all cds are in perfect condition michael bolton time love tenderness paula abdul forever your girl taylor dayne tell it to my heart lionel richie the composer elvis presley number one hits bobby vinton greatest hits super hits of the s includes yellow river rose garden for the good times help me make it through the night mr bojangles sweet mary one toke over the line put your hand in hand stay awhile woodstock silver bird i ain t got time anymore new fashioned love songs import includes extended remixes and dance mixes for the following i know you were waiting aretha franklin george michael walk like an egyptian live it up mental as anything is this love alison moyet i ll be alright without you journey the rain oran jones in my dreams reo speedwagon shake you down gregory abbott fight for ourselves spandau ballet between two fires paul young falling in love miami sound machine heartache away don johnson
misc.forsale	paintball gun forsale paintball gun for sale tippman sl ii in great condition micro honed barrel barrel squeegie barrel round sight feeder with elbow oz constant air tank with valve protector and buttplate shoulder strap x bushnell sportview scope round ammo box with flip top lid barrel plug instruction manual allen wrenches contact me at zborowsk spot colorado edu and make me an offer
misc.forsale	victoria b c hotel room nights victoria hotel reserv nights mid week sun thurs hotel reservation available for victoria canada nights days for expires june this is a letter of credit fully transferrable issued by hotelco for a hotel room in any of a number of available hotels in victoria canada hotelco is a reputable hotel booking company that provides hotel stays at low prices this letter of credit normally works for weekends too but all weekends are booked solid for the summer so check with hotelco directly for available dates at one of its member hotels to use this letter of credit before june hotelco can be reached at in bothell or during regular business hours then if you find an acceptable reservation date contact me for this letter of credit roger bacalzo rbacalzo sierra com home x work roger bacalzo sierra geophysics kirkland way ext kirkland wa rbacalzo sibu sierra com
misc.forsale	re ami pro v for sale goyal utdallas edu mohit k goyal writes lotus ami pro v please reply if interested thank you or you could get it new for the phone is or club or the address is pc buyer s club h montvale ave stoneham ma i don t work for them just thought it was too good a deal to pass up btw i recived mine days before they said it would arrive morgan bullard mb coewl cen uiuc edu or mjbb uxa cso uiuc edu
misc.forsale	townhome for sale in wheaton townhome for sale in wheaton briarcliffe lakes of wheaton just north of butterfield road call and ask for harriet bode prudential realty description a very neat well cared for low maintenance starter coach home in very fine condition located on a cul de sac just move in rooms eat in kitchen x large master bedroom x spare bedroom x dining room x living room x utility room x baths appliances stove gas refrigerator and dish washer garage opener washer and dryer garbage disposal gas water heater years old central a c with digital thermostat highlights electric fire place in living room sliding glass doors which open up to a patio with a secluded back yard area plenty of storage space with patio storage closet and storage closet in garage new ceiling fan in dining room completely remodeled bathroom new wallpaper shower door shower tile etc mini blinds for all windows newer carpets beige about years old one car garage and plenty of guest parking association fees which includes the following lawn maintenance snow removal all exterior building maintenance taxes asking price of home
misc.forsale	re kiev medium format camera cheaper prices i agree i own one aside from the shutter it is built like a little tank a very good camera your price sounds reasonable too new i paid for my kiev camera kit good luck thomas helke egret wet uucp
misc.forsale	labtec speaker for sale hi anybody interested in buying my labtec speaker labtec ss amplified stereo speaker system built in amplifier volt input works with without batteries individual volume controls treble boost switch great for medium quality pc s sound adlib soundblaster walkman for included shipping e mail me richard susanto aduh carson u washington edu
misc.forsale	commodoree i have a wonderful commodore for sale also included disk drive color moniter power supply great shape software joysticks baud modems old but useable contact doug or via dlg pro v
misc.forsale	for sale zenith motherboard the following is posted for a friend send replies to the address at the end of the post please attention zenith z owners upgrade your mhz at class machine to performance with a genuine zenith motherboard for a clone price motherboard and i o card pop right in to your z case while keeping your existing video and disk controllers zenith z motherboard featuring kb of layer posted write cache using ns sram mb of ns dram included accepts mb on motherboard further ram upgrades available via superslots running at memory bus speeds expansion slots feature zenith bit superslots autodetects bit adapters latest rev of z setup monitor roms two serial ports one parallel port secondary fan for improved system cooling z user s guide z maintenance guide and diagnostics disk included includes s h insurance replies to stann aol com replies to me will be forwarded thanks brian brian shapiro systems support specialist ohio university athens ohio shapiro oucsace cs ohiou edu or shapirob ouaccvma bitnet
misc.forsale	star trek ornament hey i have some star trek christmas ornaments for sale they are the the hallmark shuttle craft galileo they went for during christmas i am willing to sell it for that price shipping if you are interested and have some questions please reply give me a call at dang
misc.forsale	nash metropolitan forsale my little nash has sat for about a year had been running but now i must move a long distance and there are too many things to carry with me here are the details of the car hardtop exterior condition rocker panels rusted out at weld points no rust at typical spots like door hinge mounting points back battery box etc missing front bumper front pan dented up one weld popped in front this is for the most part a solid restorable automobile interior condition missing original steering wheel has one of the smaller aftermarket wheels seats need reupholstered general fair condition mechanical condition had been running but now does not want to start needs new rings which i have also have extra parts such as complete long block extra steering shaft etc for a car that has not been touched since it is in solid shape it will obviously need some work but will make a good project price well this is a tough one i would like to get around but will consider any serious offers by individuals willing to come and get it if you have things to trade such as tools toys cameras comics cards etc anything easily movable to florida i may consider that as well hit r or my e mail address is ellis osu edu home leave message thanks mike
misc.forsale	repost tape drives mm mm for sale acorn software inc has tape drives currently used on a vms system for sale these are all scsi tape drives and are in working condition wangdat mm wangdat mm compression exabyte mm plus shipping and cod certified checks only please these units are sold as is and without warrantee contact me if you re interested dick munroe internet munroe dmc com doyle munroe consultants inc uucp uunet thehulk munroe cox st office hudson ma fax get connected send mail to info dmc com to find out about dmconnection
misc.forsale	sony mhc bookshelf stereo system forsale sony mhc hi fi bookshelf stereo system months old cd player tape decks digital graphic equilizer tuner speakers watts channel top of the line sony bookshelf system includes amazing remote that actually splits into two everything can be done from the remote remote has digital display has the highest quality sound amazing bass not one scratch on system very well taken care of originally purchased for tax i need cash and i am looking to get around for it since i really need the money i will sell it to the person who gives me the highest offer and i will accept the best offer if not buyer pays insured shipping reply soon if intereseted thanks
misc.forsale	re bally s holiday health club lifetime memership in article c j k w visgraph uucp forrie visgraph uucp forrest aldrich writes for sale life time membership to the ballys holiday fitness club the original fee paid for this was over and i ll sell it for the membership is fully transferrable via proper paperwork does is include raquetball is it good at espree what is the annual fee thanks john
misc.forsale	for sale cannondale road bike w dura ace cm cannondale road bike cm bright blue color dura ace speed not sti could be easily converted though spoke wheelset clinchers complete bike or best offer all offers will be considered this bike has to go desperate times call for desperate measures will consider parting out write for details jay ritchie jbr ra msstate edu
misc.forsale	for sale apple iigs apple iigs imagewriter ii color printer color rgb monitor drive drive keyboard mouse lots of disks some applications most manuals and my utmost gratification for only or bo
misc.forsale	laptop cards laptop connectivity cards part t rn desc remote emulation card for toshiba laptop computer part t m desc easytalk bd dedicated internal modem with mnp level for toshiba t t part t ll desc easytalk internal ethernet card for toshiba laptop expansion slot part t desc easytalk terminal emulation for toshiba laptop expansion slot if interested in all or individual parts send email to rotella zmax com
misc.forsale	sams comics for sale no auction ok instead of holding an auction i have decided to compute prices for each comic after many suggestions these are the most reasonable prices i can give not negotiable if you would like to purchase a comic or group simply email me with the title and issue s you want the price for each issue is shown beside each comic first come first served there is no more bidding meet my price and it is yours i can be reached at this email address chopin udel edu or ravel udel edu or bach udel edu or brahms udel edu no more haggling about the price lots of comics for or look at list for all those who have bought comics from me thanks all comics are near mint unless otherwise noted my books were graded by mile high comics and other comic professional collectors not me here is the list incredible hulk vs another hulk vs captain marvel double size issue vs silver surfer vs thor vs bi coastal avengers vs thing vs werewolf by night copy punisher punisher war journal ghost rider ghost rider punisher armory original ghost rider rides again reprint ghost rider old series vs johnny blaze copies origin of gr dream each ghost rider new series st print green glow in dark cover copy nd print gold cover w glow cover web of spiderman copies each vs hulk copy left spiderhulk copy left deadly foes of spiderman copies each amazing spiderman vs dr octopus special nacme issue amazing spiderman vs dr doom copy left spiderman silver not bagged copies each w wolverine copy left new warriors gold cover w darkhawk superman man of steel superman new copies each adventures of superman annual superman annual armegedon tie in action comics avengers west coast hawkeye vs us agent batman robin returns annual armegedon tie in captain america vs hulk vs hulk armegedon foolkiller infinity gauntlet double dragon deathlok series transformers last issue wonder man flaming carrot w ninja turtles the comet legend of the shield justice society of america official movie mag from turtles ii movie sealed w jelloman comic robin copies w poster rd print copies each guardians of the galaxy copies each copies each superman vs amazing spiderman oversized issue from s darkhawk copies each copies each thor vs juggernaut w ghost rider thor vs loki copies each new thor annual what if alpha flight vs fant new mutants last issue st look at x force st print copies each nd print gold cover flash new annual x men new all covers each but for magneto foldout cover uncanny x men copies each sold copy left lee reg artist copy left st print gold nd print defenders hulk vs sub mariner fantastic four copies each wolverine w cable copies each silver surfer foil cover only copy left avengers origin of rage x factor quasar green lantern copies each toxic avenger copies each sleepwalker copies each kool aid man sealed in white bag copies each x force bagged w cable card bagged w shatterstar card nfl superpro dr strange hawkworld annual nd print armegedon tie in hawk dove annual armegedon tie in justice league of america annual armegedon tie in send all bids and comments to chopin udel edu thanks sam the ex comic book collector college of electrical engineering university of delaware
misc.forsale	us robotics modem reply to haljordan delphi com or call u s robotics dual standard v bis k baud hst price
misc.forsale	airline tickets o hare tuscon two round trip tickets o hare tuscon american airlines good thru november no reasonable offer refused but lets start at for both paid hopefully someone can use these as i have no use for them and don t know a way to get my moneys worth without going to tuscon again e mail only at this time tripper cbnewsk cb att com now why would at t or butler services have anything to do with my warped ramblings crabby old fart mechanical pcb designer w buku cad background still working on bscs is looking for work wants to take a shot at asic ic layout a r tripp a k a tripper cbnewsk cb att com
misc.forsale	re printing jack previdi p psilink com writes in reply to dorothy heydt reminding us that advertising is not done on internet as a matter of fact d j it does make a difference almost a half million new users joined the internet last year many of them are commercial businesses the ban on commercial use of internet is no more jack there is a difference between using the network for commercial purposes and advertising in newsgroups business communication is okay advertising to hundreds of thousands of users around the planet who have no desire to receive advertising is not okay those of us who pay for internet access are constrained only by our innate good taste and no have no administrator to guide us i suspect that a site which generated a large volume of material not in anybody s good taste would find itself getting a lot of attention it didn t want you may belong to the public library but that doesn t mean you can deface the books disorder the stacks or disturb the other patrons you re constrained by the same rules that the rest of the users many academic and military who get irritable about a network for which they pay with tax and grant money carrying private business advertising follow there are secret masters here just like everywhere else they re not as obvious as the ones on prodigy but they re here no doubt at some point the internet like everything else will become grotty enough to carry advertising at that time i hope it is confined to its own newsgroups and not on discussion groups like misc writing elizabeth willey
misc.forsale	sams comic sale low prices read ok instead of holding an auction i have decided to compute prices for each comic after many suggestions these are the most reasonable prices i can give not negotiable if you would like to purchase a comic or group simply email me with the title and issue s you want the price for each issue is shown beside each comic first come first served there is no more bidding meet my price and it is yours i can be reached at this email address chopin udel edu or ravel udel edu or bach udel edu or brahms udel edu no more haggling about the price lots of comics for or look at list shipping is for comics for more than the price will be determined by the volume of the purchase i may have to use a big heavy box for large orders which costs more to mail for all those who have bought comics from me thanks all comics are near mint unless otherwise noted my books were graded by mile high comics and other comic professional collectors not me here is the list incredible hulk vs another hulk vs captain marvel double size issue vs silver surfer vs thor vs bi coastal avengers vs thing vs werewolf by night copy punisher punisher war journal ghost rider ghost rider punisher armory original ghost rider rides again reprint ghost rider old series vs johnny blaze copies origin of gr dream each ghost rider new series st print green glow in dark cover copy nd print gold cover w glow cover web of spiderman copies each vs hulk copy left spiderhulk copy left deadly foes of spiderman copies each amazing spiderman vs dr octopus special nacme issue amazing spiderman vs dr doom copy left spiderman silver not bagged copies each w wolverine copy left new warriors gold cover w darkhawk superman man of steel superman new copies each adventures of superman annual superman annual armegedon tie in action comics avengers west coast hawkeye vs us agent batman robin returns annual armegedon tie in captain america vs hulk vs hulk armegedon foolkiller infinity gauntlet double dragon deathlok series transformers last issue wonder man flaming carrot w ninja turtles the comet legend of the shield justice society of america official movie mag from turtles ii movie sealed w jelloman comic robin copies w poster rd print copies each guardians of the galaxy copies each copies each superman vs amazing spiderman oversized issue from s darkhawk copies each copies each thor vs juggernaut w ghost rider thor vs loki copies each new thor annual what if alpha flight vs fant new mutants last issue st look at x force st print copies each nd print gold cover flash new annual x men new all covers each but for magneto foldout cover uncanny x men copies each sold copy left lee reg artist copy left st print gold nd print defenders hulk vs sub mariner fantastic four copies each wolverine w cable copies each silver surfer foil cover only copy left avengers origin of rage x factor quasar green lantern copies each toxic avenger copies each sleepwalker copies each kool aid man sealed in white bag copies each x force bagged w cable card bagged w shatterstar card nfl superpro dr strange hawkworld annual nd print armegedon tie in hawk dove annual armegedon tie in justice league of america annual armegedon tie in send all bids and comments to chopin udel edu thanks sam the ex comic book collector college of electrical engineering university of delaware
misc.forsale	stuff for sale music cds ea inc shipping jesus jones doubt residents heaven rem document nymphs sad and damned single tapes robert plant all solo stuff led zeppelin iv tshirts robert plant manic nirvana tour led zeppelin symbols swansong black bob dylan tour tie dye all offers accepted mail to jac y virginia edu
misc.forsale	hp sx with k hp sx calculator with k card have manuals boxes pc cable etc only months old hardly used make an offer mike mike jerger internet mjerger ux cso uiuc edu
misc.forsale	gre software cheap gre software for ms dos from studyware original disk manual tutorial stuff tests examples and a lot more retail price is around best offer around will pay shipping for best results you need a graphic display card ega or vga jianqing hu thssjyh iitmax acc iit edu
misc.forsale	oakleys for sale bulls vs blazers too i have a pair of oakleys that cost about new a year ago i hardly ever wore them because they just don t look right on me they are orange and blue and are the blade kind terminator style i am willing to sell these for to the first response i get i also have a bulls vs blazers game for the snes that is in perfect condition i am selling it for it includes the instruction manual john bakerjn sage cc purdue edu
misc.forsale	re catalog of hard to find pc enhancements repost in article c ji kfu taurus cs nps navy mil rpwhite cs nps navy mil rpwhite writes andy freeman writes joe doll writes the catalog of personal computing tools for engineers and scien tists lists hardware cards and application software packages for pc xt at ps class machines focus is on engineering and scien tific applications of pcs such as data acquisition control design automation and data analysis and presentation if you would like a free copy reply with your u s postal mailing address don t bother it never comes it s a cheap trick for building a mailing list to sell if my junk mail flow is any indication i have a copy of this catalog in front of me as i write this it does have tons of qool stuff in it that s one any others my impression is that they try not to send it out to browsers then they should have used a different advert it appears that if your not a buyer or an engineer they do not want to waste a catalog on you i m both i ve made some k worth of pc products purchasing decisions for one company i m affiliated with in the past months alone in a delicious bit of irony an interesting fraction went to suppliers that i suspect got my mailing address from these people more is in the pipeline right now if they wanted to discuss these sorts of things upfront is the way to do it when you get a catalog there s a vip code you and who issues that vip code that policy implementation in the running for this week s silly twit award btw it turns out that i have several vip codes here s the one i m using for these sorts of things if you want one send me mail and i ll put you in touch with the folks who do the application interview if you qualify andy
misc.forsale	re is itproper net etiquette to advertise a company s junk mail list in article apr leland stanford edu thomper leland stanford edu dale buford thompson writes my company maintains a mailing list which is regularly rented for oh no someone is provided useful information and mentioned that they made money in the field don t they know that usenet is reserved for uninformed speculation by people trying to sell their personal stuff from houses to dead pcs at a huge markup trying to unload stuff they bought from their company at just under retail and other non commercial activities a ms windows utility product in the range and is available through direct media in ct at per name please let your direct mail marketing rep know about this thanks it is my impression that net etiquette does not allow companies to use the net to directly advertise their products the net is not supposed to be a dumping ground for free ads but reserving it for tripe doesn t seem to be a significant improvement in addition to improper etiquette this product is a mailing list used for generating junk mail so either they target it well enough to pay for it in other words they manage to send it to people who want the stuff in which case it is junk only for the rest and the transaction costs are borne appropriately in this case or they go bankrupt seems fair to me am i correct in assuming this is improper and if so what can be done to penalize such an improper use you could hold your breath you could kill offending messages as they come onto your machine and refuse to send them any further but not until you turn blue andy
misc.forsale	onkyo w ch integrated amp forsale i have a onkyo integrated amplifier that i am looking to get rid of w ch integra series works great not a problem asking obo if your interested call me at or email this address make me an offer todd todd premo purdue universtiy environmental engineering
misc.forsale	contax camera system for sale this is posted for a friend who doesn t have net access you can send replies to me but i ll be out of my office all next week so don t expect a response until at least for sale contax camera system includes contax quartz slr body mm f zeiss planna lens mm f yashica lens medium sized hard case all items are in exceptional condition asking price for all items listed above the seller is attempting to sell the lot as a set but you can negotiate that with him dick joltes joltes husc harvard edu hardware networking manager computer services joltes husc bitnet harvard university science center any woman that you become extremely attracted to will immediately tell you that you re the best friend a woman could ever have david crist
misc.forsale	re apartment in moscow for rent in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu vsloutsk magnus acs ohio state edu vladimir sloutsky writes apartment for rent in downtown moscow room furnished apartment in a very nice location minutes walk to belorusskaya subway station walking distance to kremlin major shopping centers theaters restaurants and government buildings hmmm interesting what do you mean by walking distance i lived in moscow for years and if i am minutes walk to belorusskaya subway station i cannot be walking distance to kremlin unless hour of walking is what you mean by the way what is the price i may plan a trip there not sure yet though in late summer vick victorf seas ucla edu
misc.forsale	buick century estate wagon this article was probably generated by a buggy news reader
misc.forsale	pocono vacation house rental available for weekly bi weekly weekend rental a brand new chalet in a private resort community located in the heart of the pocono mountains the chalet has bedrooms and bathrooms and features full carpeting cathedral ceiling in living dining room an overlooking loft stone fireplace wraparound deck country kitchen with all appliances and many other features too numerous to list them all its custom designed and built and tastefully furnished for the comfort of adults the community has hour security and offers large lakes sandy beaches swimming pools tennis courts many picnic areas playgrounds miniature golf trout stream lake fishing team softball shuffleboard ice skating tobagun run teen dances club house etc etc there are many recreational facilities within easy reach of the vacation home ski resorts luxury hotels with nitely entertaiment pocono international raceway golf courses parks gamelands whitewater rafting horseback riding scenic trails waterfalls train rides historical places all kinds of restaurants factory outlet malls tourist attractions just to name a few this is an ideal place for a family group vacation or a weekend getaway there is no traffic congestion and air or water pollution and its only hours from new york northern new jersey and philadelphia for further information call daytime evenings and weekends
misc.forsale	text books for sale must sell i have several books which i really wish to sell calculus with analytic geometry by howard anton rd edition chemistry by zumdahl second edition acts of war the behavior of men in battle by richard holmes observing the nixon years by jonathan schell the things they carried by tim o brien shrapnel in the heart letters and remembrances from the vietname memorial by laura palmer the good war an oral history of world war two by studs terkel make me an offer you could contact me at koutd hirama hiram edu douglas kou hiram college
misc.forsale	wanted ultima for ibm i am looking for ultima v for the ibm i would like the entire package meaning i need more than just the game i would like the docs also since it is an old game i do not want to pay a lot of money if you are interested in selling this game please respond to this message
misc.forsale	computer for sale paolo marc anthony georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp allegra amd hplabs ut ngp gatech prism gt a internet gt a prism gatech edu
misc.forsale	voice processing for ibm pcs sale voice processing system for ibm compatibles item dialogic b multi line voice processing system description the dialog b is a pc xt at board that provides processing functions and call progress analysis for four independent phone lines simultaneously the d b features the ability to record playback autoanswer auto dial detect and generate dtmf tones and perform telephone mamagement functions with this card you can make your computer talk on phone lines simultaneously you can design your own answering system or by one already programmed you can build your own digital pager business and open up a business for voice mailboxes comes complete with manuals and demo software and programming libraries for c unix and dos price list you pay for more info send mail contact john rost leave message johnr cactus org send mail
misc.forsale	items sale received from a award giving company i participated in a promotion by a company called visual images i attempted to cancel my order before the package arrived i was not able to stop them and now i have a package which i do not need nishika d camera wide angle flesh film carring case instruction tapes and some jewelrys vacation vouchers to bahama cancun las vegas orlando i paid for the promotion package and the vacation vouchers came as gift i really want to sell them so make me an offer for the whole package if you are participating in a award is how much you would end up paying and i strongly believe that you would get the same award as i do if you are interested in those items you could get them from me for a cheaper price let me know and make me an offer no flames please i have got enough you could reach me at koutd hirama hiram edu douglas kou hiram college
misc.forsale	wanted motherboard vga card i am looking for a motherboard preferable or k or meg ram i am also looking for a vga card am willing to trade external ld drive motherboard monochrome monitor game boy in some combination for the above libertarian atheist semi anarchal techno rat i define myself tsa cellar org
misc.forsale	for sale game boy for sale nintendo game boy tetris castlevania adventure all star challenge nemesis play action football link cable make me an offer libertarian atheist semi anarchal techno rat i define myself tsa cellar org
misc.forsale	cd s for sale the following used cd s are for sale they are each unless otherwise marked i will pay for the shipping and handling costs if you are interested in any just e mail me at awakhras phoenix princeton edu at that point we will figure out the payment and mailing procedure artist title robbie robertson storyville love and rockets love and rockets jeff lynne armchair theatre elvis costello mighty like a rose public image ltd neneh cherry raw like sushi bobby brown don t be cruel depeche mode black celebration traveling wilburys vol bad company from soul ii soul vol ii a new decade the godfathers more songs about love and hate paul mccartney flowers in the dirt simply red stars prince graffitti bridge amer akhras awakhras phoenix princeton edu
misc.forsale	sega genesis plus sports games for sale for sale sega genesis including all cables manuals boxes controller games including all manuals and boxes sonic the hedgehog road rash john madden football n h l hockey sportstalk baseball bulls vs lakers and the n b a playoffs john madden football n h l p a hockey super monaco gp ii all of the above for or best offer price includes ups cod shipping send e mail to erc zabriskie berkeley edu if interested eric eric ng erc zabriskie berkeley edu ucbvax zabriskie erc
misc.forsale	looking looking for a video in and out video card for the ibm one that will allow you to watch tv coax or video in and will do video out digitize pictures and if i am in windows and would like to be able to look the rca out for the card to my tv and have it display on there as well as dos apps i heard of these snes and genesis copiers that will copy any games are those for real message was posted at outlan ersys edmonton ab ca hst and v bis try it you ll like it
misc.forsale	spring cleaning sale time once again to clean out the ol closet some stuff is up for offers some isn t please read carefully in the make offer department wordperfect upgrade copy includes all disks and all upgrade manuals best offer balance of power edition for the amiga with manual and reg card best offer in the for sale department technics model auto reverse open reel stereo tape deck because it s auto reverse this deck records onto tape just like a cassette deck does so it s not very good for splice type editing however i have used it effectively in tape studio applications for mastering and it works great and ips speeds supports up to reels dual lighted vu meters with record indicators full auto reverse capable and the mechanism works too adjustable sound on sound and socket for remote control i don t know where you d find one but they used to make em plus a vac unswitched outlet this unit is in excellent condition and i have had it rebuilt once since i got it works perfectly price or best offer or possible trade see below panasonic kx p printer pin with x dpi resolution in both text and graphics modes warranty cards manuals all the usual stuff you expect when buying like new merchandise i m selling it because i now have a better printer this is the wide carriage version of the kx p by the way test prints are available upon request price o b o or trade excalibur custom pool cue oz mm brass joint irish linen wrap could use a new tip but will hold up for a while i ve got too many cues as it is and don t need this one hits nicely is very straight and in excellent condition price o b o or trade imperial hard case butt shaft available for an additional trades i need the following things and i have no cash of my own right now so if you want to trade it needs to be straight across the list amiga rom upgrade to at least preferably with appropriate dos and workbench meg agnus chip for the amiga amiga hard drive and controller preferably scsi ibm compatible hard drive and controller if not mfm this one s touchy as i have a full height and don t have room for more unless i swap out needs to be above m and i will consider trading a good st in the deal intel ex or ex or similar external high speed modem this is not a complete list but it s close if you ve got something way off the track of this list it s probably not going to interest me at this point email responses please
misc.forsale	pink floyd rpm singles for sale i have the following rpm singles for sale most are collectable inch records with picture sleeves price does not include postage which is for the first record for two etc pink floyd learning to fly columbia promo picture sleeve waters roger sunset strip columbia promo picture sleeve waters roger sunset strip columiba promo waters roger who needs information columiba promo if you are interested please contact michael mchugh mmchugh andy bgsu edu
misc.forsale	rolling stones rpm singles for sale i have the following rpm singles for sale most are collectable inch records with picture sleeves price does not include postage which is for the first record for two etc rolling stones th nervous brakdown london picture sleeve rolling stones jumpin jack flash london picture sleeve rolling stones mothers little helper london picture sleeve rolling stones paint it black london picture sleeve if you are intereste please contact michael mchugh mmchugh andy bgsu edu
misc.forsale	northwest air tix save any flight northwest air tix save any flight i have a credit with northwest airlines which must be used by nov there is a charge to change the ticket so i will sell it for it can be used for any northwest flight but i don t think they will refund cash please contact me at tallen corp hp com or tom allen
misc.forsale	sam virus clinic mac software for sale i have one original sam symantec antivirus for macintosh v for sale it comes with three program discs and one user manual will work with k and mb disc drives selling for make an offer which includes postage respond to michael mchugh mmchugh andy bgsu edu
misc.forsale	rpm singles for sale complete list i have the following rpm singles for sale most are collectable inch records with picture sleeves price does not include postage which is for the first record for two etc beach boys barbara ann capitol picture sleeve beach boys califonia girls capitol picture sleeve beach boys fun fun fun capitol picture sleeve beach boys little girl i once knew capitol picture sleeve beach boys please let me wonder capitol picture sleeve beach boys rock n roll to the rescue capitol promo picture sleeve beach boys when i grow up to be a man capitol picture sleeve beatles im happy just to dance with you capitol picture sleeve doctor the medics burn i r s promo picture sleeve general public too much or nothing i r s promo picture sleeve go gos our lips are sealed i r s picture sleeve lennon john instant karma we all shine on apple picture sleeve lennon john mind games apple picture sleeve madonna open your heart sire promo mccartney paul coming up columbia picture sleeve mccartney paul mull of kintyre capitol picture sleeve mccartney paul stranglehold capitol promo picture sleeve mccartney paul wonderful christmastime columbia picture sleeve mercury freddie i was born to love you columbia promo picture sleeve pink floyd learning to fly columbia promo picture sleeve queen kind of magic capitol promo picture sleeve ramones sheena is a punk rocker sire promo picture sleeve rolling stones th nervous brakdown london picture sleeve rolling stones jumpin jack flash london picture sleeve rolling stones mothers little helper london picture sleeve rolling stones paint it black london picture sleeve starr ringo photograph apple picture sleeve starr ringo youre sixteen apple picture sleeve talking heads road to nowhere sire promo picture sleeve waters roger sunset strip columbia promo picture sleeve waters roger sunset strip columiba promo waters roger who needs information columiba promo if you are interested please contact michael mchugh mmchugh andy bgsu edu
misc.forsale	c game x men for sale selling x men for the c for only plus shipping first email gets it thanx dennis l neal dlneal cbda apgea army mil
misc.forsale	re turbografx system for sale turbografx base unit works like new with controller ac adapter antenna hookup games kieth courage victory run fantasy zone military madness battle royal legendary axe blazing lasers bloody wolf will sell games separatley at each your kidding man o man you can buy the system new for at electronic boutique and those games are only about brand new maybe you should think about that price again if you really need the money wayne state university steve teolis cass ave detroit mi steve busop cit wayne edu
misc.forsale	midi keyboard roland hs synthplus voice polyphonic fully programmable analog synthesizer full size keys midi memory to store patches built in speakers connectors midi in thru out input expansion pedal head phones tape load save patch shift pedal hold output asking harmon mps ohio state edu
misc.forsale	wanted the nine mile walk article crossposted from rec arts books author was mark wilson posted on wed apr gmt i am looking for the following book which i have only seen as a paperback i lent my copy to someone and forgetfulness has made that pronoun permanently indeterminate i am looking for one or two copies title the nine mile walk and other stories unsure about the hyphen and the exact subtitle author harry kemelman author of all the rabbi mysteries it s a collection of short mystery stories please email mark ocsmd ocs com or call the number given below thanks mark mark wilson online computer systems or try email address mark ocsmd ocs com this file disclaims everything signed with my signature i mean it mark wilson online computer systems or try email address mark ocsmd ocs com this file disclaims everything signed with my signature i mean it
misc.forsale	forsale steyr mm parabellum for sale steyr gb mm parabellum this is an excellent handgun for the first time buyer or an experienced handgunner it is in excellent condition i never had a misfire with it make steyr model gb mm parabellum magazine rounds barrel hard chrome plated inside and outside for long term durability and wear resistance fixed mount price obo comes with magazines original owner s manual contact t ahmad ihlpm tarq weekdays
misc.forsale	wanted ide hard drive and a vga monitor e mail
misc.forsale	wysiwyg word processor for dos hey i ve just upgraded my laptop to a windows capable one so i don t need my dos word processor anymore it s a great word processor easy to use undemanding on the system and best of all it has a wysiwyg editing mode this is something word perfect doesn t have and all i m asking is shipping it even comes with several hundred dollars of free utilities for a full featured wysiwyg word processor perfect for a laptop or a lower powered machine check this out ca it has ca wysiwyg mode editing word perfect still trying to do ca this ca graphics importing scaling and resizing comes ca with free art ca scalable fonts typefaces included ca indentical from screen to printer see below for more info ca on font generator ca on line spell checking and thesaurus ca see below for more info ca great level outliner ca multiple columns ca dual document opening and editing ca line and box drawing ca search and replace ca cut copy insert and paste between documents and inside ca documents ca justification control ca resettable margins tabs and line spacing ca savable layouts ca headers footers page numbering ca table of contents ca multiple rulers in one document ca mail merge ca ca also included as free utilities ca publisher s powerpak font engine this gives pfs write ca scalable fonts in sizes from pt to pt support for ca screen in write and printer even pin dot matrix looks ca great comes with typefaces supports subscripts and ca superscripts too ca grammatik iv the grammar and style ca checker comes with a quick reference card for easy use ca it really helped my punctuation and usage ca international correctspell english and roget s electronic ca thesaurus th dictionary and thesuarus pack is published by ca the publishers of the american hertiage dictionary if you ca can t trust them with your words who can you trust ca clickart business images a sampler of the clickart ca library perfect for importing into pfs write documents ca ca i bought this product year ago for its easy to use ca and turns out great looking documents even on a dot matrix ca printer so if you want wysiwyg editing for your dos computer ca now pfs write is here ca ca i m looking to get it comes with full ca documentation registration cards the box its still in ca good condition both and disks for pfs write ca and grammatik and the clickart on a disk the ca utilities pfs write comes with are worth alone so ca for a full featured wp is a real bargain buyer pays ca shipping ca ca please respond by email to carolan owlnet rice edu ca or call ca ca bryan dunne
misc.forsale	vcr cassette generator tube tester lawn spreader for sale vcr samsung vr basic head machine it has a problem loading the tape otherwise it plays and records just fine remote is missing or make offer cassette deck pioneer ct f three head servo control dolby this was the top of the line or close to it several years ago the rewind doesn t work well all else is fine service owners manual included or offer generator vac watt has a voltmeter w duplex outlet a hp engine should drive it to full output manufactered by master mechanic in burlington wisconsin or make an offer eico model tube tester or make offer lawn spreader scott precision flow model pf drop type excellent condition ideal for a smaller yard or make offer craig days home
misc.forsale	printer and game for sale i have the following for sale ti printer in excellect working condition postage game the lost files of sherlock holmes original box and contents used time and unregistered postage if iterested email me at email caldwell epcot spdc ti com and i will hold it for you
misc.forsale	polk s s forsale pair of polk s for sale brand new never opened craigb rpi edu
misc.forsale	apartment for rent in russia apartment for rent in downtown moscow room furnished apartment in a very nice location minutes walk to belorusskaya subway station walking distance to kremlin major shopping centers theaters restaurants and government buildings available in early june please call or send e mail vsloutsk magnus acs ohio state edu
misc.forsale	items for sale items for sale price listed or best offer kfc svga monitor x dp non interlaced screen still under warranty brand new baud compuadd modem box docs software cga monitor with cga parallel card sco unix v unlimited user os has the base and extended utilities and uucp turbo c turbo c the complete reference book serial i o card serial port joystick three button ide controller with serial parallel and one game port available each ask for ralf
misc.forsale	wanted singer featherweight i m looking for a singer featherweight sewing machine old black sewing machine in black case please contact mary flagle lee mlf unlinfo unl edu
misc.forsale	baseball card for sale i have a roberto clemente topps baseball card for sale in near mint condition really as close to mint condition as you can get it lists for in my most recent baseball card pricelist for may i am offering it for and i ll pay the certified postage to ship it to you please respond to jack t sendak office wang com or at ext in maryland
misc.forsale	nth engine graphics cards i have the following nth engine graphics cards for sale w drivers for autocad r display list proccessing is done through hardware b x b x i will take the highest reanable offer charles paschal total support computer systems tampa uucp paschal tscs fax us mail post office box tampa florida
misc.forsale	novell a i have a novell a that i will sell for which can be upgraded to for the novell has complete documentation but no network cards except the id card charles paschal total support computer systems tampa uucp paschal tscs fax us mail post office box tampa florida
misc.forsale	re roland juno synthesizer uniden radar detector sale actually they synth used in jump was an oberheim watch the video kevin
misc.forsale	high end car stereo for sale note this is being posted for a friend do not reply to my account please direct all replies to scott burke at scott sparcom com alpine s cd shuttle paid want obo alpine remote cd changer control paid want obo boston proseries subwoofers box paid want obo all equipment is under months old and includes a full replacement year warranty from original point of purchase the subwoofer box was custom designed to fit in the back of a bronco ii and is by by send replies to scott sparcom com scott burke project leader sparcom corporation corvallis or scott sparcom com telephone fax just waiting for the nuts brett barksdale brett porky oce orst edu
misc.forsale	for sale misc ibm stuff internal low density disk drive monochrome monitor motherboard built in parallel and serial ports built in mono and color output mhz libertarian atheist semi anarchal techno rat i define myself tsa cellar org
misc.forsale	ms c c book forsale regards steve steve shapiro all views and opinions expressed sks computer consulting inc are my own and are offered as is steve shapiro f n z fidonet org bbs n
misc.forsale	re question suggestion for everyone please read if both paries do this then the transaction will obviously be cod this allows both parties to exercise the amount of trust they see fit cod is fine until the buyer opens the box to find they paid for a brick or if it the seller allows for a personal check to be used on a cod it s fine till a stop payment is made there are few methods to protect both buyer and seller in any sort of transaction even with merchants and customers there are problems stolen credit cards chargebacks no return policies and getting the wrong item etc about the only protection available to to do business with someone you trust someone who has been around for a while jeff jeff freeman go porch toll free front porch computers voice rt box fax chatsworth ga compuserve id internet jfreeman frontporch win net
misc.forsale	car for sale from mikefran wed apr edt article of csc general newsgroups dc forsale dc general um general csc general path wam umd edu mikefran from mikefran wam umd edu michael francis subject car for sale message id apr wam umd edu keywords volkswagon scirocco sender usenet wam umd edu usenet news system nntp posting host rac wam umd edu organization workstations at maryland university of maryland college park distribution csc um dc date wed apr gmt volkswagon scirocco gold exterior and interior speed transmission am fm stereo with cassette sunroof engine in good condition new tires needs work on front left control arm because of damage caused by pothole runs well asking as is obo email mikefran wam umd edu
misc.forsale	transmitter tube i ve got an eimac a pr a transmitter linear amplifier tube unused in original packaging but opened and inventoried i d guarantee this tube to operate and be as observation and its paperwork say unused although i have no transmitter to test it with offers dave medin phone w ssd networking h intergraph corp m s gd internet dtmedin catbyte b ingr com huntsville al uucp uunet ingr b catbyte dtmedin everywhere you look at least around my office the opinions expressed here are mine or those of my machine
misc.forsale	re expen ive motorola handheld radio for peanuts agent x writes i can no longer use anything japanese kenwood yeasu icom alinco its all junk well i m not sure i d go quite that far but i agree that motorola gear is of better quality the question is how much that quality is worth to a ham in amateur service not commercial service this radio can hear a repeater thats miles away without an antenna ok great but how often does that come up how good is good enough and how much is someone willing to pay for it a good ham quality ht is maybe while a commercial quality one is maybe is the increased reliability and performance worth times the price in amateur service only the individual involved can answer that question and each ham has to decide for him herself if motorola quality is worth times the price to you then more power to ya but i m amazed that folks make that choice for me given that i ve got to spend i l pick the yaesu ht and a nice new hf rig every time over a motorola ht alone no matter how good it is to me ham quality gear is good enough to each his own mike n pdy these are my opinions only
misc.forsale	attention super nintendo and genesis players read this im pleased to announce a new revolutionary device that allows you to copy super nintendo and genesis games to floppy disk then later play from floppy disk with out the cart this is a independent system that interfaces with your snes or genesis other features store multiple copies of cart save game to disk up to saves to disk save your position in snes games that don t norally have a save feature switch your snes into slow motion mode use codes to get unlimited lives and other cheats in many games the multi game hunter is capable of copying both snes and genesis game carts to standard ibm pc formated floppy disks the games can them be played directly from the floppy disk note it does not require a pc full color on screen icons and menus make operation for the mgh so simple that even a child could operate it options can be selected simply by choosing the selection with the game controller and pressin a button add a game saver adapter to your system for more game playing power the game saver allows you to save your position to disk in almost any snes game reload your saved position any time enable it s slow motion feature for those really tough games for more control over game play we have the game finger software the game finger software can give you unlimited lives or warp you to new levels in your favorite snes games bring back to life those really frustrating games also if you know how to program asm code you can create your own snes demos or games mgh includes base unit disk drive high density drive megabit ram sram all adapters and comes ready to hook up to your gameing system only thing not included is the power supply which you can pick up at radio shack all for only disclamer the customer assumes all responsibility for the use and or misuse of this product we in no way encourage nor condone the use of this product for software piracy this device is intended soley for making legal backup copies neither nintendo or sega has giving official endorsement of the products described herein email me for more info or to make a purchase
misc.forsale	dak shorwave radio digitally tuned shorwave radio with alarm clock and presets per band has am fm sw and sw bands asking shppg reply for more details thanks pete mwieu cmuvm cmich edu
misc.forsale	portable color t v hey i have a color watchman by sony for sale it is x x in total and the screen is diagonal over wide over tall i got it years ago for so i m asking obo vhf and uhf switch for channels through slot for audio video in from vcr appropriate cord provided slot for phones slot for a c adaptor a c adaptor also provided slot for external antenna internal antenna provided on off switch manual tuning volume brightness and hue battery run as well aa batteries provided it s been used very little looks like new email if interested dave
misc.forsale	white toyota camry le must sell must sell toyota camry le car has ac ps pb sunroof am fm cassette radio cruise control etc miles white with red interior car is in excellent condition it is located in the paramus nj area or best offer if interested please call
misc.forsale	oakleys for sale items wanted heya all i ve got a pair of oakley forsale there are frogskins with aurborn red there are no scratches and only used them once or twice last summer i m looking for about dollars but please give me a bid i m am looking for the following items a bubble jet printer that works and is el cheapo i was looking for a cannon bj but if u have a bubble jet to sell please tell me i m looking to spend about or so a sound cards sound blaster compatible again i m looking fer something cheap such as or so dollars thanks whirley address whirley sage cc purdue edu
misc.forsale	bc xlt handheld radio scanner hello i have a bc xlt handheld radio scanner which recieves police fire ambulance aircraft cordless and cellular phone etc the unit is in original condition and comes with the manual the power supply and battery charger price is plus s h austin harris aharris athena cs uga edu
misc.forsale	wanted original shanghai for pc i am looking for shanghai solitaire game with mahjongg tiles for pc s if you have a copy laying around send email to richg sequent com thanks ooo o rich garrett o oo richg sequent com o work o o
misc.forsale	re vhs movie for sale didn t mcdonald s sell copies of dances with wovies for not too long ago they were also selling babes in toyland the scott baio version and something even more forgettable just think video drive thru i ll take a mcrib a mcchicken and a copy of debbie does mcdallas to go do you want fries and napkins with that bob his rrb caball vcu edu after this post i m really going to start studying really
misc.forsale	new m and used floppy disks for sale i have some brand new shrinkwrapped boxes of floppy disks that i would like to sell they are all m disks boxes of ss sd floppy disks boxes of ds dd w wp floppy disks misco is selling the ss sd m disks for for a box of ten and they are selling the ds dd m disks for for a box of ten i will take the best offer i can get for the disks as many boxes as you want i also have a quantity of floppy disks that some people were getting rid of probably due to an upgrade to a newer drive system all the disks are used and most have labels on them but they all appear to be in good physical shape however i make no guarantees of the quality of these disks here are the statistics quantity make type m single side double density soft sector bytes record memorex single side double density soft sector bytes record i will accept the best offer i receive for the disks and i m willing to sell them off in different amounts the minimum being a box of ten if i get no offers on these disks i would considering throwing them in with the new disks i m selling above i also have a head cleaning kit for disk drives for which i will take the best offer i can get all sales are final i would prefer to ship cod and add the shipping costs onto the total order cost please send e mail to formula athena mit edu if interested address ronald r duff jr phone home lamplighter drive work mit room shrewsbury ma internet formula athena mit edu
misc.forsale	wanted one way flight from des moines to chicago hi i need a one way flight ticket from des moines to chicago on the th of may please send your replies to jasonlim iastate edu or to this account as soon as possible thank you
misc.forsale	car audio forsale car audio products for sale kicker stillwater designs ss x kickers in a sealed box the box is manufactured direct from kicker instructions asking shipping kicker stillwater designs kicker subwoofers instructions asking shipping sold as a pair only kenwood kac amp watts x ohm stable box instruction included asking shipping im selling the above item for a friend without internet access you can either e mail me or call him mike metalios at foxfire
misc.forsale	car amp forsale car audio system items sony xr head unit radio pullout w x max dolby b controls all sony cd changers disc track select track disc scan repeat shuffle play features auto reverse logic controls am fm presets strong station memory preset scan tuner monitor seek manual tuning mono stereo and local dx switches metal tape compatible fader orig sony cdx a disc cd changer x oversampling dual d a converters with single clock design features one beam laser spring and silicon charged suspension system horizontal or vertical mounting pin din connector disc magazine connecting cable hz thd orig asking for both the radio cd controller and the cd changer there are no problems with either unit and they are both in reasonably good condition the radio and cd changers will only be sold together two coustic amp channels bridgeable w x w x into ohms from hz with thd channel w x into ohms from hz with thd or channels w x into ohms from hz with thd ohm stable features pwm switching power supply w protection circuits orig asking each the units are in good working condition and are currently being used to supply power to my subs can demonstrate power ratings if you are interested in any of the above items or have any questions drop me some e mail foxfire access digex com
misc.forsale	computer stuff for sale computer hardware all are working fine last time checked tandy k external floppy drive with cable hardly used software all software include original manual some even with registeration card per onal financial accountant financial statements balance sheet income expense etc ainsworth keyboard trainer typing teacher easy working tri pack includes following filer database to store all kinds of information planner spreadsheet writer an easy to use word processor great for simple calculations work processing etc books inside the norton utilities revised and expanded by brady books authored by rob krumm introduction by peter norton maker of norton utilities includes detachable quick reference card to norton utilities shows you how to get the most from the norton utilities standard edition the norton utilities advanced edition norton commander norton editor norton disk doctor plus the peter norton on line guides the only book that does full justice to the power and variety of all the norton utility software peter norton price originally was asking turbo pascal express revised one disk ready to run assembly language routines that make turbo pascal faster more powerful and easier to use equipment determination routines and access to expanded memory extensive keyboard and mouse input functions extremely fast video facilities including text graphics routines for fancy menus and windows routines for bit operations and data compression routines for elaborate printer control formatting and error recovery powerful routines for searching directory trees and displaying tree diagrams detailed information about writing other assembly routines for assembly language programmers original price was asking hard disk power w the jamsa disk utilities two disks complete guide to hard disk efficiency power techniques for maximum pc performance understand how your hard disk works beneath the surface original price was asking prices does not include shipping prices are negotiable please contact jian at or e mail to jlz sonata cc purdue edu preferred if you are interested jian liang zhen lifeforms are extinct on other planets because jlz sonata cc purdue edu their science is more advanced than ours dos windows desqview os unix
misc.forsale	usr k hst external mo for sale u s robotics k hst external modem including power adapter users guide and quick reference card call me voice at let s talk about it herb qmpro dogs come when you call cats have answering machines
misc.forsale	for sale window shades kirsch pull down window shades white light filtering wide high can be cut to width brand new unopened best quality vinyl coated cotton mounting brackets included bought at at j c penney rajaram sun com w h
misc.forsale	porsche posting for a friend porsche new this vehicle was today book list this vehicle between to perfect in every way with all options including new paint leather interior sunroof and low miles call ask for frank and lets negotiate trades considered
misc.forsale	m hd forsale or trade i have a m ide hd forsale or trade i would like to trade it if possible hd m ide westren digital no errors or bad sectors ms access time kilobytes per second transfer rate working in my computer right now looking for in a trade maybe sega genesis a pair of sub woffers souround sound stereo reciever any kind of electornic equipment if you have electorinic equipment i like almost any kind of computrer car or home equipment if you want to make an offer on a trade let me know cd player ect please if you are interested in a trade let me know email rogess sage cc purdue edu
misc.forsale	brand new h p toner for sale cheap for sale brand new hewlett packard toner cartridge model number hp a o i am selling this toner because i recently bought a brother hl v printer and the toner that i am selling i activated the toner but ended up returning the printer the store however would not take back the toner this toner has been used to print only three pages and is in perfect condition i will protect it for shipment so that no toner escapes it comes with all original packaging and manuals the toner is compatible with any laser printer that uses the model number of the toner i am selling just look in your manual to see if it will work for you i will not go below i will pay the shipping to anywhere in the continental united states if you are interested leave me email or call kirk peterson at anytime thank you
misc.forsale	ibm software for sale cheap for sale three software packages for ibm pc and compatible computers o wing commander deluxe edition o includes secret missions o includes all original packaging manuals and disks o includes registration card so you can send it in and register it in your name o original price for wing commander o original price for secret missions i o original price for secret missions ii o total original price o my asking price for all these of these games together is o wing commander and the secret missions is a battle and flight simulator set in space it includes all the standard fun things about flight simulators like taking off and landing on carriers flying of course and better yet it is also a battle simulator it is a lot of fun indeed o an ibm pc or compatible with at least k and dual floppies or a hard drive is required o winway resume for windows o includes all original packaging manuals and disks o original price o my asking price o winway resume is a resume writing program for windows it is an excellent program it got me a job and running under the window s interface makes it very very easy to use all you do is answer a few questions and print out the results in just a few minutes you have a beautifully and professionally designed resume o an ibm pc with windows or later installed and mb of free hard disk space is required o more typefaces o includes all original packaging manuals and disks o original price o my asking price o more typefaces is a package of three typetype font families for a total of twelve fonts for windows the fonts included are marque crystal and architech and of course italic bold and bold italic versions are included with all those fonts because of the unique font software included with the package these fonts can be used with either the morefonts typeface program adobe type manager truetype geoworks express publisher and coreldraw o an ibm pc with windows and a hard disk is required if you want to use the typefaces in truetype format for all other formats an ibm pc and a hard disk with one of the programs listed above is required if you are interested in any of these programs please either leave me email or call kirk peterson at anytime if i don t answer leave me a message on my answering machine and i ll call you back i will pay the shipping on all of the programs to anywhere in the continental united states thank you
misc.forsale	genesis carts forsale posting for a friend please call steve if interested sega genesis games for sale in original boxes with original manuals approximately month old john madden football electronic arts obo ecco the dolphin sega obo again i m posting for a friend if interested call steve
misc.forsale	gb disk for sale i have a gb full size seagate scsi disk for sale model no is st n this is a brand new disk never been used or formatted send me your offer at lohia bharat aux apple com raj
misc.forsale	saturn for sale saturn sl spd k miles ac cruise abs air bag cassette anti theft excellent obo consider dr spd compact as part trade damien berger berger ug eds com
misc.forsale	hobiecat special for sale hobie cat special very good condition with trailer catbox righting system many extras boat is currently garaged in natick ma miles east of boston contact rclar ctp com or call
misc.forsale	for sale complete communicator card for ibm voicemail modem fax complete communicator latest vers new in box works in dos or windows one card you get fax voicemail and modem auto switch one line handles all fax voicemail and modem communications new dollars and you pay shipping
misc.forsale	optonica tuner and integrated amp forsale i have an old optonica tuner and integrated amp that i no longer use the integrated amp section does not work right now but should not cost much to fix i believe that it is just a chip i have used it as a preamp and it works great this is a very nice looking and well built set they both are low profile but the amp is rather heavy the tuner is in fine working condition and is a match to the amp the amp is rated at w ch these peices went for about new i would like to get obo for the pair if anybody has knowledge anough to fix the amp i have had an estimate done that it should cost less than in parts please email me if you are interested i will be moving back home for the summer and will sell it back there if i do not do so here todd todd premo purdue universtiy environmental engineering
misc.forsale	onkyo integra series integrated amp for sale i have a onkyo integrated amplifier that i am looking to get rid of w ch works great integra series not a problem asking obo if your interested call me at or email this address make me an offer todd todd premo purdue universtiy environmental engineering
misc.forsale	honda accord lx honda accord lx light brown four door power windows power brakes power locks power steering power antenna am fm cassette totally cloth interior very nice miles but excellent condition must sell quit my job to go back to school blue book in idaho asking only obo email bartmich cwis isu edu phone pocatello idaho from michael barta s amiga send email to i s u electronics student bartmich cwis isu edu
misc.forsale	cd roms sale new i m looking to find some people interested in getting some cd rom s below is a list with their prices if you are interested in any of these send me some mail and i can guarantee this price if you are not local their will be a shipping cost and cod cost if you prefer it to be shipped that way marcus american business phonebook dos animals dos animals mpc audoban birds dos audoban mammals dos barney bear goes to school dos bible library dos bibles and religion dos book of lists dos britannicas family choice dos britamrica select dos business economics dos business backgrounds dos business master dos carmen san diego lwhere is mpc cd play launch dos cd rom software jukebox dos cia vorld taur dos chess master mpc dos classic col lection dos clipert goliath dos colossal cookbook dos delorme s atlas usa win desert storm mpc deathstar arcade battles dos dictionaries language dos education master dos electronic home library dos family doctor dos family encyclopedia by comptons dos family encyclopedia by comptons mpc game master dos game pack ii dos golden immortal dos great cities of the world dos greet cities of the world mpc great cities of the world ii dos great cities of the world ii mpc groliers encyclopedia dos groliers encyclopedia mpc guiness disc dos ham radio dos information usa dos islands designs dos jets props dos jones fast lane dos mps kgb cia world fact book dos kings quest dos mpc library of the future dos loom dos mpc wizard mpc macmillan kids dictionary mpc magazine rack dos majestic places dos mavis beacon teaches typing mpc mixed up mother goose dos mpc money money money dos monkey island dos oak cd stand dos our solar system dos presidents dos publish it dos reference library dos secret weapons luftwaffe mpc shereware games dos shereware overload dos sher holmes consul det mpc sleeping beauty dos srd cd software bundle titles n a stellar dos mpc story time interactive dos the cd rom collection dos time magazine almanac current dos time table of hist sci innovation dos tons gigs dos too many typefonts dos total baseball dos us atlas w automap dos us history dos us world atlas dos mpc us wars civil war dos wild places dos wing com ultima vi dos mpc world view dos e mail mkbaird david wheaton edu mkbaird david bitnet uunet uu net voice internet mkbaird david uunet uu net e mail mkbaird david wheaton edu mkbaird david bitnet uunet uu net voice internet mkbaird david uunet uu net
misc.forsale	minolta fd mm forsale minolta fd mm lens for sale good condition asking rupin dang dartmouth edu
misc.forsale	panasonic answering machine forsale auto logic panasonic answering machine with dual cassette system i will include cassettes and ac power adaptor excellent condition asking with accessories
misc.forsale	mostly non computer items rochester area swell items for sale hardly any computer stuff o lotus student edition for dos this does just about everything that standard release could do but not as much of it worksheet size is limited to columns by rows there is no translation facility for importing data from other packages and the student edition does not write files that can be accessed by release includes manual original distribution diskettes k and key board templates o subaru service manuals this is not a complete set but includes sections which cover mechanical components suspension wheels axles steering brakes pedals control cables heater ventilator air conditioning body body exterior doors windows seats seat belts interior instrument panel and electrical engine electrical system body electrical system wiring diagram and trouble shooting these are the genuine subaru issue manuals they are for model year but have plenty of good information that applies to other years as well o miscellaneous darkroom equipment solar enlarger several objective lenses with easel and timer negative carriers for mm and x misc printing masks developing tanks thermometer trays constant temperature bath ground glass mirrors darkroom lamps glassware el cheap o tripods and as they say much more o beautiful antique buffet solid cherry no veneer handmade with very interesting dovetail corners in the drawers built we think around not gaudy or covered with gew gaws a simple elegant piece of furniture but too big long tall deep for our little cape cod house will deliver pricier items ie over anywhere in the rochester area and will consider delivering the others will deliver any of it on or near uofr campus between now and graduation call or e mail paul or mary just south of rochester ny plkg ltd uhura cc rochester edu
misc.forsale	mb simms for sale pin ns for mac included shipping
misc.forsale	camera bags for sale large padded cordura bag maker unknown nge exterior black straps and interior five outside pocket plus lid compartment lid overlaps internal dividers can be repositioned held my whole bronica system metz flash etc small nikon shoulder bag sorry sold shippe small nikon belt pouch khaki like similar in design army ammo pouch belt clips etc holds flash or small zoom lens cleaner etc domke belt pouch black also has metal loops of you want to attach strap velcro closure similar to in concept but bigger holds zoom or flash small accessories etc hardly used cost me originally will sell for coast camera bag tan with brown strap main and front pocket can hold af slr with small zoom plus flash film etc matl looks like gore tex but i don t think it really is terms payment in advance by money order bank check or cash buyer pays shipping must go ups for the others send me an adequate self addressed mailing envelope padded recommended with enough postage everyone s entitled to my opinion goldberg oasys dt navy mil imagination is more important than knowledge albert einstein everyone s entitled to my opinion goldberg oasys dt navy mil imagination is more important than knowledge albert einstein
misc.forsale	very bare micronics system bare means what it says you get a case a power supply and a motherboard with ram and a coprocessor everything else is yours to add as you like the case power supply standard desktop case watt power supply with the usual connectors room for five floppy hard drives three visible two internal the motherboard us made micronics slot motherboard with intel dx mhz cpu kb sram cache mb us ram using x mb simms worth alone cyrix d math coprocessor worth alone norton si rating of latest version phoenix bios please do not post email saying but i can get a taiwanese superclone for only including a free toaster i am certain you can find a cheaper brand x board without even breaking a sweat new micronics cpus command a several hundred dollar premium because they are us made use high quality components and are known to be both very reliable and compatible they have been oemed in systems sold by both gateway and zeos at various points in the past check out the ads in the back pages of byte or pc magazine if you want to see this price differential for yourself price complete less if you don t want need the case and power supply the board is fully guaranteed email for further details or for any questions thanks david ruggiero jdavid halcyon com seattle wa home of the moss people
misc.forsale	nintendo games forsale and a dead nintendo forsale nintendo control deck with two controllers and gun one controller has grips attached the nes will only connect to a composite monitor or tv with audio and video rca input jacks and needs some repairs or best offer games for sale tecmo baseball techmo bowl double dribble wayne gretzky hockey golf super mario duck hunt toobin spelunker tecmo super bowl total i ll give all of them to you for or best offer and throw in the control deck i ll also accept the best offer for each of the games the oldest of these is two years old most of them are less than a year old tom warning signature under construction enter at your own risc
misc.forsale	for sale urei a band equalizer i have a urei a band mono equilizer for sale anyone who knows this unit knows it s been a recording studio standard for years it s a pretty straightforward unit with balanced ins and outs power supply caps were recently replaced and i added xlr connectors which can be easily removed if you prefer as i mounted them on a bracket outside the case the unit is in good shape and is sonically very clean i m asking ups shipping they re going for generally make me an offer tod treganowan computing and information services university of pittsburgh work home
misc.forsale	looking music for macintosh i m trying to set up a personal studio what i m looking for are a cheap sampler rack or with keyboard or a cheap sound card audiomedia i or ii or something similar cheap is of course relative
misc.forsale	mfm controller wanted i have a friend who is looking to buy mfm controller if you have one for sale would you please contact me through email thanx ehud ehud eng umd edu eoentung cbis com
misc.forsale	cd s for sale hi i have the following cd s for sale these are absolutely new and in the original packing artist album original sale price price madonna the immaculate collection pet shop boys discography if you are interested pls contact me at parikhma ucunix san uc edu thanks m parikh
misc.forsale	stealth vram sale item a brand new stealth vram hi color card w meg display price it comes with install disk turbo windows x drivers w bit color halo desktop imager bit for windows x advanced autocad accelerator includes big picture a complete manual if interested please e mail sunbum cory berkeley edu thanks
misc.forsale	cd for sale cd s for sale jon bon jovi new jersey boomerang soundtrack the police every breath you take s h e mail rtsbangi memstvx memst edu
misc.forsale	toyota camry super deluxe k toyota camry top of the line vehicle blue book asking k miles auto transmission has everything owned by a meticulous automoble mechanic call ask for bob posted for a friend
misc.forsale	rc car for trade title just bout says it all grasshopper remote controlled car for sale trade features racing engine installed original included as well sets of tires futaba channel radio with servos receiver body completly refinished great shape battery and charger every thing you need to have it running right out of the box very fast everything i haven t run this thing in a long time i had it out the other day just to check on it and everything is a ok i d listen to any cash offers but am more interested in trading for some extra storage for my computer if you have any of the following and are interested in a trade drop me a line ide hard drive megs must be wide tall scsi hard drive megs must be wide tall scsi tape backup any make size scsi cd rom baud modem external please leave any offers questions in email to lgibb nyx cs du edu
misc.forsale	wanted xapshot digital camera wanted cannon s xapshot digital camera i d be interested in any other makes but the xapshot is the only one i m familiar with i need one with a composite output and approx pictures per disk capability if you have one for sale or if you know of a cheap place to order one please leave me email at lgibb nyx cs du edu thanks
misc.forsale	vga card meg wanted it must have meg memory and support res x even higher will be better if it has pin ports and also supports ega cga that s better i will pay shipping for it let me knoe if u have one like this ailin
misc.forsale	re bally s holiday health club lifetime memership in article r v j t f access digex net jb access digex com jb writes in article c j k w visgraph uucp forrie visgraph uucp forrest aldrich writes for sale life time membership to the ballys holiday fitness club the original fee paid for this was over and i ll sell it for the membership is fully transferrable via proper paperwork does is include raquetball is it good at espree what is the annual fee since it is a life time membership you won t have to worry about it until your next life trey arthur csc at nasa langley aerospace engineer ms d hampton va j j arthur larc nasa gov
misc.forsale	nikkor af forsale nikkor af f zoom lens excellent condition i m looking to get the version so i m selling this asking no offers please
misc.forsale	re nikon fm and lens forsale fm has been sold following remains minolta md mm lens ricoh camera with zoom lens identical features as nikon fe plus some more great condition inquire about low price s vhs tapes brand new fuji high quality inquire
misc.forsale	mhz mhz amps mtr ht for sale i have the following equipment for sale kenwood th a mtr ht rf concepts mtr amp in out hamtronics class c continuous duty mhz watt in watt out amp all prices include shipping insurance for additional information contact me at the address below dave admiral david e ryan der anomaly sbs com uunet rayssd anomaly der
misc.forsale	sega genesis for sale trade game gear sega control panel super manaco gp ii catrridge one regular controller one turbo controller a c adapter a v cable stereo cable carrying bag i would like plus shipping or trade with game gear and game please e mail if you feel interested thank you bill
misc.forsale	for sale high guality conifer oil from russia ton ton inguiry by address er eridan chuvashia su
misc.forsale	for sale high guality conifer oil from russia ton ton inguiry by address er eridan chuvashia su
misc.forsale	amiga s for sale for sale amigas commodore amiga best offer k ram internal floppy drive detachable keyboard button mouse commodore amiga best offer k ram internal floppy drive button mouse rgb monitor best offer external floppy drive best offer call brian dickman at or send e mail to dickman con huey millersv edu
misc.forsale	wanted video equipment repost i am looking for a working docking deck deck that goes on back of camera for an old jvc gx s tube video camera any format is acceptable please send me a message if you even know anything about decks for the gx s also interested in any video equipment for sale professional or consumer thank you bbates pro freedom van wa us pro freedom bbs
misc.forsale	pc network and office equipment long repost lower prices new posting lower prices make offers on anything that seems interesting a company i m associated with is closing out some inventory and office equipment here s what s available quan item description price ea new additions novell user version of best offer netware advanced netware with tts sft ii system fault tolerance level remember ii disk duplexing mirroring v sells transaction tracking fault for tolerant file system etc for just the manuals alone take users up a foot and a half of shelf space hayes lanstep hayes peer to peer lan starter package operating system and email netbios compatible expands up to users unopened canon np great little copy machine makes great copies just needs toner reduce enlarge etc very good condition a bargain end of new items bytex ringout token ring cable and mau was testing and certification tool this is the standard now handheld testing unit used by large companies such as coca cola and american express to certify their physical layer current retail price these are demo or new microtest lanmodem excellent modem server for novell was networks supports remote lan node indial modem pooling and lan to lan asynchronous routing now ethernet version current retail price microtest lanport standalone ethernet print was aui com server for novell networks the intel netportii is now ea based on this original retail most of these are brand new microtest lanport see above bnc com microtest lanport see above bnc com com microtest lanport see above aui com com microtest lanport see above aui lpt microtest lanport see above bnc lpt token ring mau port ibm clone milan mil p aui to baset mini transceiver was now qms smartwriter x hp laserjet plus compatible was laser printer ppm dpi based on the canon engine it now has serial and ibm twinax ports emulates hp epson fx ibm proprinter diablo and qume downloads hp fonts reliable ibm quietwriter quiet letter quality printer sheet at a time feed have extra ribbon cartridges ibm tractor feed for the quietwriter above ibm pc xt compatible misc pc xt compatible computers was some are pcs limited original dell computer co some are tech pc xt these come with now at least a mb hard disk a kb floppy monochrome video card keyboard and kb of memory ibm pc at or compatible some of these are original ibm was at s some are turbo clones clone brands include tandon acer and everex standard now equipment is the same as above except most have mb hard drives and mb floppy amber monitor for pc ibm compatible monochrome ttl type brands vary including samsung magnavox and adi mostly want to stay local on these too hard to ship ibm green monitor ubiquitous ibm pc display monochrome ttl type local see above zenith zfl laptop pc full size and full was travel keyboard xt compatible backlit supertwist display now dual k floppies accton ethercoax w bit bnc ethernet interface was card for pc compatibles this unit is nicely made mostly now also have used bo surface mount clone of the ubiquitous western digital wd e new in box with disk western digital wd e the real mccoy version of the above drivers are available for just about anything used surprising performance for an bit card no dma hassles hedaka modem internal for pc compatibles was in box almost new works fine now hayes b internal internal real hayes modem for pc compatibles untested terms on the above are c o d shipping extra as usual offers are welcome but i think most of these prices are more than fair most of this equipment is tested and working perfectly unless otherwise noted please contact me via email as follows pk wet com netcom hoptoad wet pk thanks
misc.forsale	for sale c system w printer obo commodore epson homewriter pin printer d s disk drive joysticks mouse lotsa software both games and apps rapid fire joystick adapter about a year old obo c ommon pchang ic sunysb edu s ense state university of new york stony brook e ngineer
misc.forsale	marvel comics for sale mostly cover price comics for sale all are marvel and the majority of the comics are cover price buyer pays shipping shipping costs will vary with the quantity you buy all reasonable offers will be considered punisher w j each punisher each regular series x factor annual silver surfer st rd print each x force ghost rider each new mutants nd each marvel comics presents each here you have it please send replies to u uicvm uic edu noel lorenzana thanks
misc.forsale	more comics for sale miscellaneous comics for sale i really would like to get rid of these for lack of space buyer pays shipping and all offers considered oh and the first purchase over in any of my posts gets a free maxx coupon or a trashed copy of amazing spidey here goes deathlok each annual special sleepwalker set or each next men ray deathstroke each darkhawk new warrior s fantasti four moon knight each hulk each punisher w z cage x force silver sable x calibur each hearts of darkness infinity guantlet each batman v pred each deluxe guardians of the galaxy spider man set spec spider man special hologram let me know if you d like to buy anything my address is u uicvm uic edu thanks noel lorenzana
misc.forsale	newtek video toaster link for sale i have a bout a dozen newtek video toaster links available these connect macs and the video toaster list is street price likely to be i can sell them off for including shipping anywhere factory shrinkwrapped plus tax if in california e mail rebop or call m f if you would like further info all toaster and toaster accessories and system components are available as well bob ulius rebop well sf ca us
misc.forsale	keyboard wanted i m looking to buy a working keyboard for a system preferably a layout i m looking to spend about david
misc.forsale	wanted avionics equip i m looking for good deals on the following used or new aviation headsets with mic handheld nav com tranciever may consider com only portable gps or loran navigator reply here or call only after pm please don t wake the night worker in my house if you must call during the day i can understand if you want your employer to pay for the call jay a snyder jay gdx uunet vogon compnect gdx jay this is your brain unix gdx bbs worldblazer this is your brain on drugs msdos unix and msdos file areas xenix bins jay a snyder jay gdx uunet vogon compnect gdx jay this is your brain unix gdx bbs worldblazer this is your brain on drugs msdos unix and msdos file areas xenix bins
misc.forsale	star trek tos novels package some reading from a recent interview trip waiting all day at o hare a month ago waiting out the storm here in new york the price of the phoenix the fate of the phoenix memory prime take the package for or in trade for a good used cd gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
misc.forsale	for sale ultrabots pc game electronics art s ultrabots game for sale with book and original disks in the original box or best offer contact unpingco raman ucsd edu
misc.forsale	synoptics lan h w for sale or trade synoptics model lan concentrators o new never used original packing o each unit has rj ports for mbps ethernet connectivity o included are one power supply manuals bracket hardware for racks o you can setup lans using unshielded twisted pair utp telephone wiring o both units o or trade i m looking for dx dx pc hardware email jerry ciz rose com phone hrs days a week rosereader r entered at rose rosemail rosenet usenet gateway rose media
misc.forsale	xt clone for sale for sale ibm compatible xt personal computer dos brand acer age years specs k ram meg hard drive floppy drive color monitor baud usrobotics internal modem bundled with loads of software word processing communications spreadsheet games a good computer that successfully got me through all of my ba ms and half of my phd i decided to switch to a mac for my dissertation perfect for high school student college student or person who needs basic word processing spreadsheet and or database capabilities best offer reply to laura gurak userglub mts rpi edu laura j gurak phd candidate dept language literature and communication rensselaer polytechnic institute troy ny gurakl rpi edu rhetorics of science technology social aspects of computing rhet criticism
misc.forsale	macintosh plus for sale f o r s a l e c h e a p macintosh plus includes drives external software word excel pascal intro package hypercard tour etc leaving school in may must sell a steal at please reply e mail jr eve albany edu jr albnyvms bitnet only the strong
misc.forsale	sega genesis games for sale i have a sega genesis barely used that iud like to sell with the following games sonic the hedgehog i revenge of shinobi thunderforce iii i m asking obo i can best be reached via email or alternatively by phone at alexander hinds
misc.forsale	headphones for sale i have two pairs of headphones i d like to sell these are excellent and both in great condition denon ah d jvc ha d any reasonable offer accepted alexander hinds
misc.forsale	rok steady keyboard stand for sale update hello again folks been a while since i last sold thangs but the last time went with no problems and i m moving again so i have a few keyboard stands that i don t need anymore and don t want to drag back across the country ultimate support stand probably sold will see if it is gone by saturday pick up date rok steady tier keyboard stand or best offer try me one x shaped bottom unit with two sets of arms that attach to that to support keyboard above the main x shipping not included in the above prices but details can be worked out if you re interested in these items dan keldsen djk ccwf cc utexas edu dan keldsen are you now or have you ever been djk ccwf cc utexas edu a a berklee college student univ of texas austin b a member fan of billy death music composition mm c a max programmer m m consultant ask d a think c midi programmer
misc.forsale	for sale paradise svga accelerator card for sale paradise svga accelerator card x x x x up to times faster than vga manual drivers used for months perfect condition wd chipset obo for more info thouchin cs umr edu t j houchin
misc.forsale	re printing in p psilink com jack previdi p psilink com writes as a matter of fact d j it does make a difference almost a half million new users joined the internet last year many of them are commercial businesses the ban on commercial use of internet is no more this is true but long standing tradition has been to keep commercial advertising in the biz hierarchy trip martin night acm rpi edu night acm rpi edu rpi edu
misc.forsale	pc transporter for sale hello all i have a pc transporter for sale it will work with either an apple iie or a gs however i only have the gs installation kit this pct also has a co processor installed it comes with the latest software and a drive so what you get is pc transporter no problems runs great installation kit for above pct gs with video tape instructions all needed harware with color adapter for monitor co processor installed on board all manuals and software ver aepc one k drive to hook to the pct or gs brian laakso send me your reasonable offers email blaakso ub d umn edu
misc.forsale	k modem zoom here it is zoom k fax data v bis modem i have evreything only purchased in january will happily provide the fax comm software and box and manuals i am selling this for only s h cod nicolas nowinski feel free to call for quickest service olx td yes you to can become a asm programer for s h
misc.forsale	k fax modem for sale repost hi since the original buyer found out he couldn t use this modem for his mac i beleive i mentioned that it s an internal in my former post the modem is re available now this modem is suprafaxmodem v bis if interested please e mail thanks ps i am sorry i already lost those e mails stated interested in this modem if you all are still interested please e mail me again
misc.forsale	misc items pip tv tuner cb ant gym scanner run brds i have the following items for sale rabbit pip tuner soloflex like gym scanner mhz cb antenna blazer jimmy running boards rabbit pip picture in picture box this device when used with a vcr tuner will allow you to have a second channel popped up on any corner of the screen the you can press swap on the remote and the small picture will be swapped with the main picture the only limitation to this box is that it is has channel tuner this means that the box itself cannot tune higher than cable channel however if your vcr tuner is capable of tuning higher than this then you simply tune the vcr to the channel desired and then swap pictures assuming the alternate picture is channel or lower and it will work fine original cost will sell for running boards for jimmy or blazer brand new black running boards for the s models i purchased them and realized that i could not use after return period expired them because of wheel trim that i have installed on my vehicle original cost will sell for regency mx channel scanner recieves cellular frequencies mhz along with other bands brand new ni cad battery pack original cost will sell for gyn plex model workout gym similar to solo flex this gym is similar to solo flex in that it uses resistance bands to increase the effective lifting weight it is all black and made of steel i have an extra set of bands that i purchased that will be included original cost will sell for big stick cb antenna for mhz band will sell for because of weight or or other difficulty last items for atlanta area only please i will share non cod shipping charges thanks manny information gateway bbs public access newsgroups email please reply to hernandez info gw blackwlf mese com sysop hernandez info gw atl ga us
misc.forsale	forsale and hard drive packer bell mhz bit expansion slots external drive bays floppies internal drive bay hard drive mb floppy drive mb of ram or best offer including shipping segate mb st n scsi hard drive great shape controller mb format or best offer including shipping
misc.forsale	for sale track recorder i have a fostex x track recorder for sale it is in excellent condition and includes dolby noise reduction sub mixing inputs and uses normal cassettes if you are interested make me an offer please respond to zmed trc amoco com thanks mike
misc.forsale	for sale drum machine i have an alesis hr drum machine for sale it includes velocity sensitive pads digital sounds pattern memory and song memory if you are interested make me an offer please respond to zmed trc amoco com thanks mike
misc.forsale	mitsubishi eclipse gsx for sale for sale mitsubishi eclipse gsx all wheel drive hp valve turbo speed transmission limited slip differential am fm stereo w cd player cassette speakers fog lights air conditioning cruise control electric windows front rear intermittent wipers washers alloy wheels undercoated rustproofed miles maui blue excellent condition asking negotiable call pete work home or respond to pvannuis attmail com
misc.forsale	riding lawn mower for sale ariens riding lawn mower this mower is in perfect condition and contains the following features electric start inch cut double rear baggers new battery new engine one year old inflatable tires gives nice ride cushioned seat gives nice ride tuned up and blade sharpened in the past month i am moving into a house that has a small area of grass to cut and does not require such large mower the engine was replaced not rebuilt last year due to some faulty work done by a lawn mower repair shop price phone day nights weekends
misc.forsale	test this is a test thanks
misc.forsale	for sale mhz motherboard or system with megabytes i recently upgraded to a and have found out i don t really have a need for my old i d prefer to sell just the motherboard and keep the case etc so i ll offer the motherboard and case separately and let you decide i m asking for the motherboard which has mhz dx not sx megabytes of bit ns memory ami bios based on c t neat chipset this means the motherboard and bus circuitry timings are programmable the bios advanced configuration menus let you select system dma bus clock wait states command delays etc baby at sized fits in mini tower full sized or most any other case includes user s guide and a copy of the bios reference manual for more you could have the rest of the system too full size at case with watt power supply serial parallel game ports mb hard disk mb floppy disk keyboard video card choice of vga or if you re interested please give me a call the system is set up at my house in aloha and you re welcome to come test drive it random drivel from the keyboard of brad davis ncd inc beaverton or network computing devices bradd pcx ncd com ncd pc xdivision office
misc.forsale	syquest m cartrifge forsale i have new and slightly used syquest m cartridge forsale asking for all of them and shipping is included please reply by e mail richard
misc.forsale	dos posting for a friend reply to him not to me for sale micro soft dos v micro soft dos v release date diskettes manual in perfect conditioni best offer accepted i pay shippinig contact randall at randall clark byu edu home work
misc.forsale	nintendo system power pad light gun games nintendo bit system power pad light gun zapper controllers games supermario duck hunt power field and wings asking please reply to hv psuvm psu edu
misc.forsale	wanted super mm projector with sounds i am looking for super mm projector with sounds if anybody out there has one for sale semd email with the name of brand condition of projector and price for sale to kimd rpi edu it must have sound capability danny kimd rpi edu
misc.forsale	looking for battletech games on pc i am interested in both the battletech games for the ibm pc i will be grateful to anymore with information please email me if you would like to do my transaction thank you
misc.forsale	comics the complete set of the ad of buck rogers in the th century the complete set of the adventures of buck rogers is forsale make a reasonable offer email me back if interested thanks jamal socrates umd edu
misc.forsale	summer sublet available in baltimore large bedroom for rent from june aug in row house near jhu homewood no smokers or pets share house with or f law students f professional student wanted bath large kitchen remodeled last summer hardwood floors lr dr washer and dryer beautiful details rent utilities located on bus lines for more info email me rfp jhuvm
misc.forsale	summer sublet wanted in dc wanted summer sublet in nw dc on red metro line have own bedroom but can share common areas with others apartment or room for or less move in memorial day weekend through end of august no smokers email prinaoa yalevm or rfp jhuvm
misc.forsale	cd rom ibm cd rom drive ms drive only make offer or trade
misc.forsale	re brand new ide floppy s p g card for sale in article bitzm columbia dsu edu bitzm columbia dsu edu michael bitz writes for sale ide multi i o card brand new controls ide hard drives floppy drives or high or low density serial ports parallel port game port all in one card measuring x this card is brand new never been opened much less used at all including all shipping charges bitzm columbia dsu edu mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research and development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet s sdnet bitnet a friend of mine is selling the same thing for new
rec.autos	re saturn s pricing policy in article c vir l r shuksan ds boeing com fredd shuksan fred dickey writes carolinafan uiuc cka uxa cso uiuc edu wrote i have been active in defending saturn lately on the net and would like to state my full opinion on the subject rather than just reply to others points the biggest problem some people seem to be having is that saturn dealers make k on a car i think most will agree with me that the car is comparably priced with its competitors that is they aren t overpriced compared to most cars in their class i don t understand the point of arguing over whether the dealer makes the k or not i have never understood what the big deal over dealer profits is either the only thing that i can figure out is that people believe that if they minimize the dealer profit they will minimize their total out of pocket expenses for the car while this may be true in some cases i do not believe that it is generally true i bought a saturn sl in january of at that time based on studying car prices i decided that there was no comparable car that was priced as cheaply as the saturn sure maybe i could have talked the price for some other car to the saturn price but my out of pocket expenses wouldn t have been any different what s important to me is how much money i have left after i buy the car reducing dealer profit is not the same thing as saving money show me how reducing dealer profit saves me money and i ll believe that it s important my experience has been that reducing dealer profit does not necessarily save me money fred say you bought your saturn at k with a dealer profit of k if the dealer profit is then you would only be paying k for the same car so isn t that saving money moreover if saturn really does reduce the dealer profit margin by then their cars will be even better deals say if the price of a saturn was already below market average for the class of cars then after they reduce the dealer profit it would be below market average it will attract even more people to buy saturns because it would save them money force the competitors to lower their prices to survive now not only will saturn owners benefit from a lower dealer profit even the buyers for other cars will pay less isn t that saving money doug
rec.autos	re are bmw s worth the price in article apr wdl loral com gwm spl spl loral com gary w mahan writes road and track bmw is s mile s road test annual s mile s those are the numbers i was quoting i have driven the older model but not the newer sure sounds like they got a ringer the is i drove was definitely faster than that if you want to quote numbers my aw autofile shows in mile in it quotes car and driver s figures of and oh btw these numbers are for the i i don t know how the addition of variable valve timing for affects it but don t take my word for it go drive it teddy
rec.autos	re headlights problem thanks to all of you who responded to my posting the problem with my truck s headlights low beam problem was a loose wire connection it was not the fuse as a minority of you suggested thanks again
rec.autos	left turn signal won t stop automaticaly the subject says it all my chev s pickup s left turn signal does not stop after turning what cause this to stop automaticaly is this a mechanical problem by the steering wheel note this truck has an after market steering wheel gt grant installed
rec.autos	re what is volvo wolfson regatta sps mot com stephen wolfson writes in article mar ugle unit no oep colargol edb tih no oep writes which turns into a teenagers car when it gets old the average lifelength of a volvo in norway is years and in sweden years of course someone pointed out when saab or volvo was running their at least years ads that the average milage was significantly less than than the us average that my be but every volvo i ve ever owned has lasted far longer than most other cars volvo miles still on the road volvo miles still on the road volvo miles still on the road and i ll admit the dealer repair cost is high but with some mechanical aptitude of your own and finding a good indi mechanic you can avoid most breakdowns and make the rest cheap the sum total of the repairs on the car with miles has been mufflers and a radiator whoa bad repair record and all of these cars are driven fairly hard none of them are at the head of a line of cars going mph the first two spend a lot of their operating life with the speedometer pegged and the only reason the doesn t is it has a mph speedo what i want to know is have all you people who hate volvos been traumatized by someone in a turbo wagon blowing you away on the road or what
rec.autos	re saturn pricing blatherings mihir pramod shah mps cec wustl edu wrote robert j wade writes until and more saturn retailers are built like in the same city most medium and large cities have a small handful of saturn dealers now sacramento has two saturn dealerships mihir shah ralph bean hprnd rose hp com
rec.autos	radio for toyota tercel i m looking for a replacement radio tape player for a toyota tercel standard off the shelf unit is fine but every place i ve gone to service merchandise etc doesn t have my car in its model application book i want to just take out the old radio and slide in the new with minimal time spent hooking it up and adjusting the dashboard if you have put in a new unit in a similar car i d like to hear what brand how easy it was to do the change and any other relevant information please answer via e mail thanks tom ostrand tom ostrand e mail tjo scr siemens com siemens corporate research phone college road east fax princeton nj
rec.autos	infiniti g i am thinking about getting an infiniti g in consumer reports it is ranked high in many catagories including highest in reliability index for compact cars mitsubushi galant was second followed by honda accord a couple of things though in looking around i have yet to see anyone driving this car i see lots of honda s and toyota s there is a special deal where i can get an infinity g fully loaded at dealer cost i have check this out and the numbers match up they are doing this because they are releasing and update mid version includes dual air bags and want to get rid of their old s i guess my question is is this a good deal also can anyone give me any feedback on infiniti thanks carl hoffman p s the other cars that i have test driven and which are in the running are mitsubishi galant honda accord and toyota camary
rec.autos	re basics about maintenance in article apr telxon mis telxon com joes telxon mis telxon com joe staudt writes in article piip bo agate berkeley edu hubertc whistle cs berkeley edu hung hsien hubert chang writes hi being new to a car owner i would pretty much like to know more about some basics of maintaining the cars i know the following oil has to be changed every miles change the oil filter too check tires before going on the high way and fill up the tank make that monthly or more often if you know one or more of your tires has a slow leak if the tire has a leak you should fix it what others thank you check all fluids regularly every month check the oil every time you fill up with gas doesn t work too well if the engine is hot its more accurate to check the oil when the engine is cool i e not when you are at a gas station craig
rec.autos	re integra gsr really about other cars in article apr nntpd lkg dec com kenyon xqzmoi enet dec com doug kenyon stardog champion writes it s great that all these other cars can out handle out corner and out accelerate an integra but you ve got to ask yourself one question do all these other cars have a moonroof with a sliding sunshade no wimpy pop up sunroofs or power sliding roofs that are opaque a moonroof that can be opened to the air closed to let just light in or shaded so that nothing comes in you ve just got to know what s important doug integra gs hahaha my sentiments exactly
rec.autos	re integra gsr in article mwf b w w njcc wisdom bubble org jonc njcc wisdom bubble org j on cochran writes i d like to add the beretta gtz as a car which will kick gs r butt anyday and it s a lot cheaper to boot i will take this one with a definate grain of salt performance data shows a if this poster has some proof other than my friend blew one away last week want proof here is some data on acceleration and handling from motor trend apr integra gs r beretta gtz mile l acc g s slalom wrong why don t you look again at motor trend s slalom times they are right along with the integra and the car does that with small inch tires that are all weather xgtv not to mention that the integra rides alot better than a beretta your acceleartion times also vary magazine to magazine road track and car driver have the gs r at to for road and track also quarter mile times vary from to you can t tell exactly by the numbers furthermore the integra will definately outrun the beretta on the high end car driver and road track have the gs r doing to mph and it gets there fast so the beretta can out handle the integra and it can certainly keep up with it in acceleration and the beretta probably has a higher top speed due to the horsepower advantage hp torque for the integra vs for the beretta you always believe those exact numbers why don t you drive a gs r and see for your self while the gs r has a low torqye its high gearing over a rpm make up for the difference still wouldn t call it a torque moster though the biggest advantage would have to be the price the integra costs as tested motor trend the gtz costs as tested the gtz also has standard nicities and airbag and antilock brakes an airbag is not available on the integra and lower models do not have abs considering you save almost dollars for the beretta and the quad is a reliable engine it doesn t make sense to get the integra as a performance coupe which is what people have been trying to make it out to be quad reliable yeah what s your definition of reliable if that s reliable then its safe to say that integra engines in general are near perfect not to mention a hell of alot smoother and quieter balance shafts the acura has the engine wins the reliablity contest hands down you can rev that car all day everyday and you ll never blow a hose or crack the block or anything else i speak from expierence i m not saying the quad is a bad engine but don t highlight reliability when you comparing it to a acura engine and while the integra costs alot more it is a better investment since it will hold its value considerably much better and does a nice job at being a sporty car and practical at the same time note this isn t a flame on the gtz or other gm quad products the berreta is a nice car and puts out respectable performance and a very reasonable price not to mention it has an airbag but to start quoting figures from one source isn t too reliable read other sources and drive both cars while i haven t driven a gtz i have driven gts and grand ams with quad engines so they are similair
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time don t have a list of what s been said before so hopefully not repeating how about horizontally mounted oil filters like on my ford that no matter how hard you try will spill out their half quart on the bottom of the car when you change them joe st lucas stlucas gdwest gd com standard disclaimers apply general dynamics space systems san diego work is something to keep me busy between ultimate frisbee games
rec.autos	re how hard to change springs on f truck in article apr michael apple com ems michael apple com e michael smith writes does it take any peculiar tools to remove the rear springs from a ford f truck o naah just a coupla nice big bumps
rec.autos	re jeep grand vs toyota runner in article pq p p seven up east sun com jfox hooksett east sun com writes any reason you are limited to the two mentioned they aren t really at the same point along the suv spectrum not to mention price range how about the explorer trooper blazer montero and if the budget allows the land cruiser any advice on how to buy a land cruiser my local toyota dealer says they get two a year and if i want one i can just get on the waiting list forget about a test drive or even kicking the tires and if they are that rare i doubt there is much of a parts inventory on hand jonathan edwards edwards intranet com intranet inc
rec.autos	re mgbs and the real world in article apr mks com mike mks com mike brookbank writes my sister has an mgb she has one from the last year they were produced its in very good shape i ve been bugging her for years last year produced about selling it i ve said over and over that she should sell it before the car is worthless while she maintains that the car may actually be increasing in value as a result of its limited availability which one of us is right are there mgb affectionados out there who are still willing to pay k to k for an old mg are there a lot out in the market yes there are still alot of mgbs out there the earlier cars pre are usually more desirable due to certain things that went with having chrome bumpers ride height generally more power the older cars are appreciating slowly the newer ones seem to be at a stable level at the moment to k would require extremely good condition and low miles if the car is in good shape and regular maintenance is kept up on it the car should last for a long time there are still plenty of parts sources ouththere the mgb is a great fun little car if she is keeping it solely in the hopes that it is going to appreciate tell her to sell it it is not worth waiting the time it would take to appreciate to a real profitable level rick guynn mg driver soontobe mga mkii rcg zeus tamu edu rebuild complete to be finished texas a m university keeper of the eternal octagon mgb roadster a k a the marque symbol that i ll have it registered soon refuses to die honest
rec.autos	re advice on bmws and winter driving this past winter i drove from nyc to killington vt or times in my i convertible talk about poor reputation in the snow with an excellent set of snow tires i put noika nr s on in dec and have been sure footed in some pretty severe weather conditions ever since i ve plowed through inch snow covered roads effortlessly while other cars have been paralyzed front wheel drive included concentrate more on where the rubber meets the road rather than driveability of cars in snowy conditions drive carefully buy good snow tires and most cars will perform adequately in less than ideal conditions an aside i can t praise noika nr snows enough absolutely the best snow tires i have ever driven on if you live in the snow belt do yourself a favor and get a set of these next winter tim timothy j bigham all opinions expressed above are my own lehman brothers inc and should not be construed as those of amex tower world financial center my employer new york n y
rec.autos	re wax residue on black molding sayeth joseph d mazza mazz andrew cmu edu i waxed my car a few months ago with a liquid wax and now have whiteish smears where i inadvertantly got some wax on the black plastic molding i ve tried repeatedly to remove the smears with no luck i m on the verge of replacing the molding altogether it s a nice car armor all removes raindance wax on my mazda protege s black plastic bumpers your mileage may vary given this observation one would be well advised to take care not to get any of this or probably similar protectants such as son of a gun on one s paint i know that sometimes my jaw clicks when i eat void where prohibited have you seen this boy lust never sleeps i say hurl honey i m home silver bokonon uucp uunet becker xrtll bokonon silver
rec.autos	re who was or what is miata as used in the mazda miata sayeth sjwyrick lbl gov steve wyrick anybody keeping track of how many of these there are so far i have miata tredia previa sentra maxima altima camry and justy not to mention lexus acura and infiniti you re apparently including names that are or appear to be derivatives of real words in english or some other language e g acura infiniti maxima altima in which case you missed ones such as integra supra allante capri and calibra in canada add serenia and precidia if you count misspellings add protege and in canada vigor how about the forthcoming mondeo if it is given that name in north america others might include celica corolla paseo and tercel in canada add asu na i know that sometimes my jaw clicks when i eat void where prohibited have you seen this boy lust never sleeps i say hurl honey i m home silver bokonon uucp uunet becker xrtll bokonon silver
rec.autos	re jeep grand vs toyota runner in article igw world std com edwards world std com jonathan edwards writes i am considering buying one of these two vehicles new i want a fun to drive family vehicle that can go through anything the jeep is very popular and has the features all wheel drive wheel anti lock roomy passenger cabin but limited cargo with an internal spare the toyota is an aging design with only part time wheel and only rear anti lock and no anti lock in wd it also has a very inconvenient rear gate not to mention awkward ingress to the passenger cabin any reason you are limited to the two mentioned they aren t really at the same point along the suv spectrum not to mention price range how about the explorer trooper blazer montero and if the budget allows the land cruiser bear in mind that of all suv s purchased never venture off road carefully weigh the trade off between comfort and off road performance when choosing one and realistically decide whether you ll actually make enough use of the off road ability to sacrifice some of the on road comfort john john
rec.autos	re geico mechanical breakdown insurance in article c pbh noose ecn purdue edu rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu robert j wade writes in article apr lds loral com mcculloc sps lds loral com thad mcculloch writes has anyone had any experience with geico s extended warranty plan it seems to be slightly less expensive than the normal dealer sponsored policy and once again never buy extended warranties they are a complete and total ripoff period you are better off taking your money and putting it in a bank and using that money for repairs many extended warranties never pay or have co payments etc how many people will actually put that money in the bank and keep it there for the sole use of a automotive repair maybe for people who have a hard time saving money or don t want the hassle of worrying about paying for everything the extended warranty is worth it for some people it is worth it others not and for some the peace of mind knowing you won t have too many unexpected expenses is enough if you drive a lot your basic warranty can be up in a little longer than a year how many people can make the car payments as well as large repairs it may work for some people andrew andrew bernstein motorola inc there s no such thing as sanity e algonquin road and that s the sanest fact schaumburg il dire straits bernstei next corp mot com next mail ok
rec.autos	mgbs and the real world my sister has an mgb she has one from the last year they were produced its in very good shape i ve been bugging her for years about selling it i ve said over and over that she should sell it before the car is worthless while she maintains that the car may actually be increasing in value as a result of its limited availability which one of us is right are there mgb affectionados out there who are still willing to pay k to k for an old mg are there a lot out in the market mike brookbank mks king st north mike mks com director interopen sales mkt waterloo ontario mortice kern systems inc mks canada n j w fax
rec.autos	male female mystery re dumbest automotive concepts of all time in article apr iscnvx lmsc lockheed com sharen iscnvx lmsc lockheed com sharen a rund writes apparently you re not a woman my husband hates the auto door locks features but forgets that besides families with children a woman feels safer in a car that locks easily in addition to watching around checking out if anyone s near me when i get to my car never park in a secluded spot etc have my keys ready to open the door so i m not fumbling in my purse looking for them this has me thinking is there a biological reason why women can t put their keys in their pants pockets like men do i have two pockets on the back of each of my pants i put my keys in one and wallent in another many of the pockets even have a botton on them so i can close them securely everything is that much simpler for me why can t women do the same is is biological ie not enough room for a bigger bottom plus keys and a wallet or is it the way they are raised by the parents
rec.autos	convertibles i was wondering if someone could point me to somewhere i could find a list and hopefully comparison of all the convertibles that are out these days seems like they are making a big comeback but i m not sure where to look
rec.autos	toyota wagons has anybody noticed that toyota has an uncanny knack for designing horrible ugly station wagons tercels corollas camrys have their designers no aesthetic sense at all dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time cup holders driving is an importantant enough undertaking cellular phones and mobile fax machines see above vanity mirrors on the driver s side ashtrays smokers seem to think it s just fine to use the road fake convertible roofs and vinyl roofs any gold trim dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.autos	ford probe gt engine problems one of the local dealers has a used k miles probe gt on the lot with a photocopy of a document taped to the window saying the dealership bought the car back from the previous owner because of engine noises but that the ford district rep had ok ed the car saying those noises were normal i thought it was worth looking into the car seems otherwise clean and mentioned this to a co worker who proceeded to tell me a horror story about her son s probe gt which had several problems ending with engine noises which she said was something with the heads that ford acknowledged the noise said they were working on it but didn t have a cure as of yet her son traded the car in and i checked not the same car so i have some evidence of a reoccuring problem with the v in the probe gt s and by extension with the madza and mx anything to this i d love to consider buying the gt i m turning time for my scheduled mid life crisis but i d hate to find out i just became the proud owner of a lemon
rec.autos	re integra gsr really about other cars it s great that all these other cars can out handle out corner and out accelerate an integra but you ve got to ask yourself one question do all these other cars have a moonroof with a sliding sunshade no wimpy pop up sunroofs or power sliding roofs that are opaque a moonroof that can be opened to the air closed to let just light in or shaded so that nothing comes in you ve just got to know what s important doug integra gs
rec.autos	ford explorer wd do i need performance axle we re considering getting a ford explorer xlt with wd and we have the following questions all we would do is go skiing no off roading with wd do we need the performance axle limited slip axle its purpose is to allow the tires to act independently when the tires are on different terrain do we need the all terrain tires p x or will the all season p x be good enough for us at lake tahoe thanks tom tom shou silicon graphics shou asd sgi com n shoreline blvd ms u fax mountain view ca
rec.autos	re lo jack according to a lojack representative i saw recently lojack must be installed by an authorized lojack dealer and is placed in one of roughly spots in the car thanks steve m att com mantic srmal sure aviad
rec.autos	re how hard to change springs on f truck bottom line i did it and it worked some tips and techniques are included here in article c zzpn ax constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison writes in article apr michael apple com ems michael apple com e michael smith writes does it take any peculiar tools to remove the rear springs from a ford f truck this is a x with leaf springs front and rear so with a big socket and an air wrench and a floor jack and a hydrolic bottle jack can i do this at home i found that i needed some smaller sockets to undo the shocks and a can of wd helped the sockets needed were metric exact fit but i was able to use some sae sockets and are rather close to and mm it can be fun having a canadian ford i m pictureing this undo u bolts put a bottle jack on the axle and raise the bed frame to take stress off of the leaf spring undo the end bolts bushings drop the spring turn the bottom leaf re connect the spring bolts sounds about right didn t have to undo the end bolts bushings just the u bolts on each side and the shock absorber jacking up the frame some more had to put the spare tire on the garage floor and put a wooden platform on top of that to get the floor jack high enough to raise the frame i t one talll truck lifted the spring free of the axel taking out the block gave me enough room to undo the pin holding the spring pack together the spring pack was held together with a nut on top and a round head on the other end no wrench head vice grips worked fine i soaked the nut with wd and it came right off flipped the bottom spring and then is this a nightmare waiting to happen or an easy though physically demanding thing to do well it s easier than doing a decent trigger job on a a ok well maybe it s not that easy but it s not terribly difficult i donno i m a little more sore today than after working on a a a foot pipe cheater was a real help torque spec for the u bolt nuts is to ft lbs a a doesn t have that kind of torque spec it was a challenge to get the pack bolt back in the spring pack squeeze pack with two hands hold bolt with third put nut on with fourth while picking up wrench and vice grips with fifth and sixth hands i used some string to tie the pack together while holding the pin in for alignment then i could let go to get the nut wrench vice grips getting the pin back lined up with the lift block was a challenge too until i discovered that the axel had tilted and or rolled forward one the drivers side a bottle jack under the front of the differential tilted it back in line enough for the pin head to drop into the right hole on the passenger side i had to wrestle the wheel into rolling forward about inch to get things to line up spent more than an hour working on getting the pin head into the hole in the lift block with levers and ropes and impliments of distruction before i took a break and thought about why it wasn t lined up anymore since it had been lined up before and i didn t move it something else must have hmmm axle no longer constrained not to move hmmm move it back hmmm after that it was all much easier to close up btw the ride is now softer but not quite as soft as i was hoping for at least it now sits level e michael smith ems apple com whatever you can do or dream you can begin it boldness has genius power and magic in it goethe i am not responsible nor is anyone else everything is disclaimed
rec.autos	re are bmw s worth the price sure sounds like they got a ringer the is i drove was definitely faster than that if you want to quote numbers my aw autofile shows in mile in it quotes car and driver s figures of and oh btw these numbers are for the i car and driver rated the is at at after k miles last time i checked automobile magazine rated new is mile gee aint quotiin funner than the dickens sounds like we need a race i ll let you have the newer version can someone out there lend me a is for a day i wont hurt it i promise i don t know how the addition of variable valve timing for affects it but don t take my word for it go drive it actually i will take your word on it i refuse to test it new is because i love bmw s and would probably want to buy it problem is my income just doesn t support that
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all tim in article ppg b fvq armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes joes telxon mis telxon com joe staudt writes in article phoi s armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes stuff deleted the silly thing about this whole argument is that most of the trunk releases i m tempted to say all but there s bound to be a counterexample only operate if the car is on acc or running thus you can t easily pop the trunk without starting the car most cars the only cars i ve ever seen with this feature have been gm cars my mazda honda and coming soon probe all have cable operated releases my camaro had an electric hatch release that was thankfully independent of the key in the ignition the exception to the rule mentioned in my first sentence i should probably have said glovebox trunk releases i haven t encountered any glovebox releases that are cable operated numerous gm and several ford mercury cars that i ve encountered have electrical releases in the glovebox and all of the ones i ve seen needed the ignition on to some degree to operate your camaro example is noted but since it s a hardtop it s not a big deal i ve never run into a convertible with a cable operated trunk release i d agree that in such an environment a cable or always active electrical release would be rather stupid jim frost jimf centerline com my honda has a cable release that can be locked out with the ignition key the valet key can be left with someone and will not unlock the trunk or enable the cable release i remember my mothers corvette that had an electronic hatch release located on the drivers door which was always active the fact that the car had no real trunk makes the security measure of beign able to dis able the hatch release unnecessary
rec.autos	re did us drive on the left left hand steering wheel placement was not standard until the s in the us driving on the right has been standard since standards came into being interestingly chrysler has just begun building right hand drive cars again for export to japan
rec.autos	re did us drive on the left desoto s first year of manufacture was so this may indeed have been an export special as left hand controls were standard here by then
rec.autos	re infiniti g in article cup portal com carl f hoffman cup portal com writes there is a special deal where i can get an infinity g fully loaded at dealer cost i have check this out and the numbers match up they are doing this because they are releasing and update mid version includes dual air bags and want to get rid of their old s is this really the dealer s cost did you get the dealer s cost by looking at the invoice there may be factory to dealer incentives i d check this out since i have trouble believing that a dealer would sell a car to me at his cost dealer invoice is not necessarily the dealer cost teddy
rec.autos	re lh car order delay in article apr skcla monsanto com mas skcla monsanto com writes i read an article in the chicago tribune stating that chrysler is having problems addressing the demand for the l engine for it s lh cars can anyone post how long they are waiting for an ordered car or how long they have been told they ll have to wait thanks john mas e mail address mas skcla monsanto com i ordered an intrepid es on jan th and haven t seen it yet i called a couple of weeks ago and was told more weeks it s probably time to call again charles johnson intel corporation supercomputer systems division ms co nw greenbrier pkwy beaverton or phone email cfj ssd intel com
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time well you young fellers won t remember but we used to have side vent front windows until some damn bean counter scrapped them these were separate triangular windows at the leading edge of the front doors that pivoted outward at the rear edge worked like a charm yeah i loved the vent windows on my escort hell the only thing i liked about the car one of the things i d like to see brought back does anyone know if they re an option on the new escorts trh
rec.autos	inflation in car prices anyone have figures or pointers to references about how fast much car prices have gone up in the last decade thanks
rec.autos	just testing hello testing
rec.autos	svx oil change my friend brought a subaru svx recently i had drove it for couples times and i think its a great car esp on snow however when she took it to a local subaru dealer for a oil change the bill came out to be about dollars the dealer told us it is because to change the oil filter on a svx it is necessary to disassemble a metal cover under the engine and that took an hour of labour at first we think we are being ripped off so she phone to a dealer in toronto but found out the they are charging roughly the same price so is there any svx owner out there that has the same problem and if the oil change story is true then the engineer of subaru looks pretty stubid to me by the way the car looks great swd wan
rec.autos	saab mailing list could someone out there please tell me how i could get onto the saab mailing list specifically i need the address and instructions on what to do thanks in advance pete
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time ak yfn ysu edu john r daker writes cup holders driving is an importantant enough undertaking this is a good idea so you can carry your non alcoholic drinks without spilling or having someone hold on to them cellular phones and mobile fax machines see above fax machines yes cellular phones why not get a hands free model fake convertible roofs and vinyl roofs seemingly unique to american luxury cars the big three haven t yet realized that the s are over any gold trim i agree just another display of yuppie excess jon dunn
rec.autos	need info on mazda i test drove a mazda lx this past weekend and liked it the dealer offered it for k is this a good price any comments on in general please use email thanks peter att hotsoup peng
rec.autos	re integra gsr in article apr ns cc lehigh edu daz ns cc lehigh edu demosthenis a zeppos writes in article mwf b w w njcc wisdom bubble org jonc njcc wisdom bubble org j on cochran writes i d like to add the beretta gtz as a car which will kick gs r butt anyday and it s a lot cheaper to boot comparing the gtz and gsr is apples to oranges somewhat like a mustang and a crx both have very different ways of doing things and ought to appeal to different buyers i e i don t think an acura owner would be seen dead in a chevy dealership or vice versa stuff deleted are all weather xgtv not to mention that the integra rides alot better than no integra i have seen comes with all season tires the gtz does come with much bigger wheels along with the integra and the car does that with small inch tires that your acceleartion times also vary magazine to magazine road track and car driver have the gs r at to for road and track the c d figures are almost certainly bogus and based on a hot prototype supplied by acura the mt figures are more plausible also quarter mile times vary from to sounds reasonable probably faster than regular integras so the beretta can out handle the integra and it can certainly keep up with it in acceleration and the beretta probably has a higher top speed due to the horsepower advantage hp torque for the integra vs for the beretta you always believe those exact numbers why don t you drive a gs r and see for your self while the gs r has a low torqye its high gearing over a the gsr gearing is horrible for day to day driving it needs a speed box more than any other modern car essentially th in a regualr integra equals th in the gsr and the regular integras are very buzzy at speed rpm make up for the difference still wouldn t call it a torque moster though considering you save almost dollars for the beretta and the quad is a reliable engine it doesn t make sense to get the integra as a the only person i knew with a gtz had it bought back by gm as a lemon it was a piecve of junk but very quick for fwd quad reliable yeah what s your definition of reliable if that s reliable then its safe to say that integra engines in general are near perfect the only gsr owner i know had the engine throw a rod with less than k miles a rare screw up by honda both the gtz and gsr are flawed cars the performance enthusiasts would take the gtz and the cr purchase would be the gsr craig
rec.autos	re mgbs and the real world in article apr mks com mike mks com mike brookbank writes my sister has an mgb she has one from the last year they were produced its in very good shape i ve been bugging her for years about selling it i ve said over and over that she should sell it before the car is worthless while she maintains that the car may actually be increasing in value as a result of its limited availability grass roots motorsport has a long article about mg b s this month as far as collectivity speculation is concerned they think it is a waste of time especially the later rubber bumpered models are the least desirable a original model the most the reasons for its low value are easy availability and the fact that it just was not a very good car craig which one of us is right are there mgb affectionados out there who are still willing to pay k to k for an old mg are there a lot out in the market mike brookbank mks king st north mike mks com director interopen sales mkt waterloo ontario mortice kern systems inc mks canada n j w fax
rec.autos	vw passat again kojo valet phx mcd mot com kojo yeboah writes ky to all those who have passats do you recommend using super unleaded or just ky regular unleaded gasoline i have been using regular unleaded a friend of mine has ky a jetta and has always used super unleaded and thinks i should be using the same ky however i believe the advantages of super unleaded for cars and under ky has been overplayed by guess who the companies who sell them because that is ky where they make the most profit a ralph nader report and other consumer advocates ky have in the past spoken against those oil companies your passat vr is designed to run on premium gasoline however the engine electronics will retard the timing so that no harm wil be done to the engine with lower octane fuel you will likely however get somewhat more power and fuel mileage especially in hot weather out of this particular engine if you do run it on premium tom neumann deluxe i sell volkswagens canada remote systems toronto ontario
rec.autos	re toyota wagons in article apr pmafire inel gov russ pmafire inel gov russ brown writes in article pq bl rj news ysu edu ak yfn ysu edu john r daker writes has anybody noticed that toyota has an uncanny knack for designing horrible ugly station wagons tercels corollas camrys have their designers no aesthetic sense at all the new camry wagon may just be even uglier than my tercel toyota has cornered the market on ugly station wagons after seeing the new camry sedan i had thought toyota would finally turn out something nice looking the new camry station wagon bears a strong resemblance to a hearse and a weird looking one at that teddy
rec.autos	re photo radar was re rec autos frequently asked questions photo radar and mailed tickets make no sense at all speeding is a moving violation committed by the operator not the owner the owner may be a rental agency a dealer a private party or a government agency as long as the owner has no reason to expect the operator will be driving illegally or unsafely the owner cannot be held responsible for what the operator does the car may even have been driven without the owner s knowledge or consent i can t believe a mailed ticket where the driver is not identified would stand up in court this is obviously a lazy cynical boneheaded fascist way to extort revenue and has nothing to do with public safety bk what do photo radar units look like also what major u s cities use it jon dunn
rec.autos	re most bang for between and your best bet is the dodge intrepid with the sohc valve six it gets hp and has a hell of a lot of room great styling and abs with four wheel disk breaks the lh cars won automobile magazines automobile of the year award and are quiet impressive
rec.autos	alaska car show peninsula cruisers third annual autofaire what car show for any and all types of vehicles including pedal cars where kenai mall kenai alaska when may who peninsula cruisers car club kenai ak why proceeds of this event to benefit the cooper landing ambulance corps general this car show is open to all types of cars trucks motorcycles factory and modified mild to wild antique special interests race drag mudders hi po or just plain ugly this is a fun event intended for the occassional gear head to the most serious gear slammer we would like to have as many entrants as possible but please contact us for space availability first come first serve p s all out of town entrants can stay right next door at the kenai merrit inn for a special rate of a night single or double occupancy call the merit if you d like any further information you can contact me at the addresses below mel mckay cant drive rebelheart a gorgeous supercoupe remember saves lives saves twice as many rebelheart too old for some things define bitnet fsmlm alaska too young to know define e mail fsmlm acad alaska edu which things
rec.autos	re was re safety from how far can you see a car in article c rvkm plato ds boeing com simnet plato ds boeing com mark r poulson writes ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes you will be surprised at the number of people who forget their glasses while driving and then there are the people who just plain don t get their eyes checked once a year as someone who has lousy vision i can see objects at a distance without my glasses however they are quite fuzzy and i may not be able to make out the details but i can certainly tell that something is there i won t argue too much about anything i am probably one of those that think that we can t have enough safety on the roads i would gladly sacrifice distractions as you call it than someone having trouble seeing danger earlier one saved life justifies more than my lifetime of distractions for me and then there is dawn and dusk when your eyes have not yet adjusted to the poor light and there are those who drive black grey cars and then there is the case where you are driving down a two way one lane road and someone is overtaking cars and coming the opposite direction doesn t see you because your lights are not on or vice versa at mph that is quite a small reaction time but of course we are too macho to think we are invincible and can react faster than that only the poor sod who you didn t see might not have a normal life ever i worked out the reaction time in a previous post and its plenty even for an year old grandma as long as speeds are in the mph range or less if you or some other driver is going way faster than that then be careful as always you are responsible for your driving actions if you pull out to pass and crash into someone for whatever reason its your fault if you can t problem is that i may just kill the guy i agree that i would be at fault and i will have my license revoked why i might even go to the gas chamber but the fact still remains that the guy is dead someone died because i was too stingy to put on my lights see a damn thing then you shouldn t be driving lights fail fallen trees or rocks don t have lights etc i maintain that headlight strength the ratio of the probability of fallen trees rocks on the roads to oncoming traffic is too low to even be considered the difference is also working on what we know could happen to what might happen running lights are not necessary for motorists who drive around mph it may be a good idea to force the running or headlights on when you turn your windshield wipers on but only because some people are too stupid to do so if you crash into one of those idiots you have to fight it out in court to show his neglegence if you can even prove it just out of curiosity how much gas milage do you loose when you put your lights on and how much do you reduce the life of your head lamps and what is the cost of your headlamps anyway mileage is certainly reduced but by a very very small amount probably about watts for head and running lights this is an extra horsepower that must be made by the engine it may be that this will cost you around two gallons a year but times million cars that s a lot of gas compared to the number of gallons of gas consumed by those million cars it is miniscule whatever tis a pity i have to share the same roads with a person not concerned with safety s ssave ole cdac com lamp life is measured in hours so if you normally drive in half daylight and half night your lamps will have to be replaced twice as often headlamps only cost about us for most halogen lamps the cost to the individual is trivial and to me is not the issue what i don t like is the distractions all these cars with headlights cause i don t need to constantly see the headlights of the vehicle behind me i don t need to see the headlights of every gosh darn car for a mile down the road these lit up cars make non illuminated things less visible like pedistrians and bikes hopefully we re not going to mandate drl s for people and bikes too a stream of taillights is tolerable as are the orange front running lights this is certainly sufficient for other people to see you if they look and doesn t distract me nearly as much as full power headlights mark
rec.autos	quick question how do you take off the driver side door panel from the inside on an honda prelude the speaker went scratchy and i want to access its pins i see only one press button and the rest is snug fit s ssave ole cdac com
rec.autos	clothing was re male female mystery re dumbest automotive in article pima inn gap caltech edu wen king cs caltech edu wen king su writes this has me thinking is there a biological reason why women can t put their keys in their pants pockets like men do i have two pockets on the back of each of my pants i put my keys in one and wallent in another many of the pockets even have a botton on them so i can close them securely everything is that much simpler for me why can t women do the same is is biological ie not enough room for a bigger bottom plus keys and a wallet or is it the way they are raised by the parents oh pulleeze it s not biology at all it s clothing design women s clothing is generally designed to be as non functional as possible it s only been in the last five years or so that you could buy women s pants with pockets deep enough to carry anything in previously deep pockets were virtually unknown in women s clothing skirts generally have better pockets now too dresses espcially fancy dresses are still pretty hopeless i often hand my driver s license over to my husband if we re dressed up to go out somewhere so i don t have to be encumbered by a purse if women consistently bought functional clothing and boycotted the manufacturers who refuse to make functional women s clothing i think manufacturers would tend to bow to market pressures there s an interesting chapter in susan faludi s backlash that described what happened the last time clothing manufacturers ignored the need for functional women s clothing the manufactuing industry lost millions from a woman who would rather buy men s clothing with decent pockets and long legs and high waists than women s clothing without lmann jjmhome uucp internet laurie mann genie claiming that sex education leads to irresponsible sex is like claiming that driver education leads to car accidents
rec.autos	re looking to buy dodge stealth have questions in article apr cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes in article apr usho hou chevron com hhtra usho hou chevron com t m haddock writes i found a mopar spec sheet this weekend model wgt hp stealth stealth es stealth rt stealth rt tt okay i ll take their word for it i am giving every chance to retract figures widely known the mustang is rated at is you have a hp advantage over a mustang seems that the mustang is rated at hp only because ford changed its testing procedures under the older procedures it still rates closer to hp that means that the mustang has hp more and you still haven t posted any weight figures for the mustang big threat you are ko d by a civic acording to c d yeah sure in your wet dreams and that s probably where you got that second for the stealth i ll check c d s issue strange that you claim to have that go ahead and check asshole you ll realize what an idiot you are for not checking data beforeposting car drive may stealth es hp automatic for posts now you ve been harping on this may issue of car driver without posting any numbers why not because they prove me right and you ain t got the guts to admit it yeah thought so the sentra se r really is alot quicker than the hp fwd sports car you are close to the k sentra e go look up the numbers in c d and report please no i m going to play your game no way sentra s are slow i took a test drive and it took to go why even the hyundai excel blows it doors off any yr old knows that i race and i ll kick your butt blah blah blah let s see yep that sounds just like you oh man i just got it beavis butthead that s you who would buy a fwd automatic that costs k that is capable of only a and would plainly be dusted by a se r i dunno why did you but why would someone pick the dodge stealth rt over the nissan sentra all it takes is one look travis
rec.autos	re w w or w in article foo brad thone c bt wuvmd writes well there is a difference i don t happen to have my sae manual handy but oil viscosity in general decreases with temperature the sae numbers are based on a typical curve that oils used to all have running from say the viscosity of a room temperature weight at c down to say that of a room temperature weight at c for a typical weight oil oils that are designed for operation in normal temperatures just have a weight specification oils that are designed for operation in exceedingly cold temperatures have a w tacked on the end so in winter in a cold place you d stick w in your car in the winter and in it in the summer to approximate the appropriate viscosity throughout the year modern multi viscosity oils change viscosity much less with temperature as a result their viscosity graphs cross over several curves a multi vis specification pegs the curve at two temperatures a normal operating temperature and a cold one though i can t remember the numbers in any event the weights do indicate a significant difference remember that your engine is temperature regulated by the thermostat and radiator or air fins most of the time unless you overheat it or something any weight of oil is better than no oil or than very old carbonized oil thin oil won t in general lubricate as well at temperature thicker oil will like a w will lubricate better at temperature but not as well during startup when most engine wear occurs if you re planning on making long drives the w is probably fine esp in the summer in your w car but if you re making short drives stick to the w don t drink soap dilute dilute ok
rec.autos	re looking to buy dodge stealth have questions in article apr usho b hou chevron com hhtra usho b hou chevron com t m haddock writes in article apr cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes in article apr usho hou chevron com hhtra usho hou chevron com t m haddock writes i found a mopar spec sheet this weekend model wgt hp stealth stealth es stealth rt stealth rt tt okay i ll take their word for it these arethe numbers i have been stating in the past messages it really angers me that you insisted you were right and that you had no clue what your own car weighed why didn t you check when i first told you that your figures were implausible i am giving every chance to retract figures widely known the mustang is rated at is you have a hp advantage over a mustang seems that the mustang is rated at hp only because ford changed its testing procedures under the older procedures it still rates closer to hp that means that the mustang has hp more i d like to hear a better explanatin of how you come to that conclusion from the above data big threat you are ko d by a civic acording to c d yeah sure in your wet dreams and that s probably where you got no sorry your wrong again you quoted the del sol as doing in according to c d interestingly the stealth es which is faster than your rt does the samerun in seconds according to c d kind of embarassing isn t it why didn t you check the figures before posting it only makes you look stupid when you are caught out twice with your own figures that second for the stealth i ll check c d s issue strange that you claim to have that you really should have checked go ahead and check asshole you ll realize what an idiot you are for not checking data beforeposting car drive may stealth es hp automatic for posts now you ve been harping on this may issue of car driver without posting any numbers why not because they prove me right and you ain t got the guts to admit it yeah thought so if you insist i gave you every chance to retract but dodge stealth es auto does an wonder why you couldn t find it do you realize that a k sentra c d will run a that a sentra se r or saturn will run in the s don t you think it is kind of strange that your hp sports car is so easily beaten a mustang which weights about the same according to your numbers has less power and is much quicker care to explain don t be abusive just try and come up with a rational explanation of where those hp went to its a mystery to me the sentra se r really is alot quicker than the hp fwd sports car you are close to the k sentra e go look up the numbers in c d and report please no i m going to play your game no way sentra s are slow i took a test drive and it took to go why even the hyundai excel blows it doors i guess you drove a speed and couldn t shift craig
rec.autos	storing a car long term i bought a car with a defunct engine to use for parts for my old but still running version of the same car the car i bought has good tires is there anything in particular that i should do to store the defunct car long term i d hate to have parts of it go bad someone has told me it s bad for the tires to not move the car once in a while is this true do i need some props to take the weight of the tires best to reply by mail i am getting spotty news delivery kris a kugel hico kak kak hico westmark com
rec.autos	re did us drive on the left the reason i ask is because i went to a classic car meet here in the uk and saw a very nice old de soto s vintage i d guess with wooden artillery type wheels etc but it was right hand drive i can t believe that desoto produced rhd cars just for the uk well sweden and australia and lord knows wherever else used to drive on the wrong side of the road so the export market might have been larger then than just the uk i m guessing but i believe in the twenties we probably drove mostly down cattle trails and in wagon ruts i am fairly sure that placement of the steering wheel was pretty much arbitrary to the company at that time by the s there was a very active good roads movement which had its origins actually in the s during the bicycle craze picked up steam in the teens witness the linclon highway association or so and the us highway support act real name something different in that first pledged federal aid to states and counties to build decent roads also the experience of widespread use of trucks for domestic transport during ww convinced the government that good raods were crucial to our national defense anyway by the s there were plenty of good roads at least around urban areas and they were rapidly expanding into the countryside this was the era after all of the first auto touring fad the motel the auto camp ground etc two good books on the subject spring to mind warren belasco america on the road title may not be exact author is and another called the devil wagon in god s country author i forget also any of john flink s or john bell rae s auto histories as to placement of the steering wheel being arbitrary by the early teens there were virtually no american cars that did not have the wheel on the left in the early days cars had the wheel on the left on the right and even in the middle as well as sometimes having a tiller instead of a wheel this was standardized fairly early on though i don t know why dan dh q andrew cmu edu carnegie mellon university applied history world history strides on from catastrophe to catastrophe whether we can comprehend and prove it or not oswald spengler
rec.autos	any subaru liberty owners out there i ve had my subaru liberty wd station wagon for about months now saying i m happy with it would be an understatement just great well built handles beautifully plenty of power i ve only had if off tar once did a trip over the mountains on a narrow windy dirt road often very dodgey in parts the subaru did it with ease i havent had so much fun driving a car for years any other owners out there steve green hey rocky watch me pull a rabbit outa my hat comms group that trick never works its branch nothin up my sleeve presto csiro australia no doubt about it i gotta get another hat
rec.autos	re difference between lexus series from article apr ucsu colorado edu by lorenzo rintintin colorado edu eric lorenzo what is the difference between the ls es and gs seems lexus can t stop popping out new models let me put it like this the only similarity between the three models is the or liter engine displacement actually the sc the coupe and the gs the funky looking new sedan share the same liter inline six and the es popular small sedan uses v shared with the camry the sc is a luxury sports coupe the gs is the new luxury sedan and the es is the base executive sedan all three look completely different aamir qazi aamir qazi qazi csd csd uwm edu why should i care i d rather watch drying paint
rec.autos	re most bang for between and rmt r faraday clas virginia edu roy matthew thigpen writes your best bet is the dodge intrepid with the sohc valve six it gets hp and has a hell of a lot of room great styling and abs with four wheel disk breaks the lh cars won automobile magazines automobile of the year award and are quiet impressive is the v lh under k though chintan amin the university of illinois urbana champaign mail llama uiuc edu because he was human because he had goodness because he was moral they called him insane peart cinderella man
rec.autos	re saturn s pricing policy cs cs brown edu hok chung tsang writes in article c vir l r shuksan ds boeing com fredd shuksan fred dickey writes carolinafan uiuc cka uxa cso uiuc edu wrote the biggest problem some people seem to be having is that saturn dealers make k on a car i think most will agree with me that the car is comparably priced with its competitors that is they aren t overpriced compared to most cars in their class i don t understand the point of arguing over whether the dealer makes the k or not i have never understood what the big deal over dealer profits is either the only thing that i can figure out is that people believe that if they minimize the dealer profit they will minimize their total out of pocket expenses for the car while this may be true in some cases i do not believe that it is generally true i bought a saturn sl in january of at that time based on studying car prices i decided that there was no comparable car that was priced as cheaply as the saturn sure maybe i could have talked the price for some other car to the saturn price but my out of pocket expenses wouldn t have been any different what s important to me is how much money i have left after i buy the car reducing dealer profit is not the same thing as saving money show me how reducing dealer profit saves me money and i ll believe that it s important my experience has been that reducing dealer profit does not necessarily save me money fred say you bought your saturn at k with a dealer profit of k if the dealer profit is then you would only be paying k for the same car so isn t that saving money yes but the point is that prices are competetive saturn may well be selling a car intended on giving the dealer a profit but since a comperable honda with profit is more expensive it may be well worth it to buy the saturn moreover if saturn really does reduce the dealer profit margin by then their cars will be even better deals say if the price of a saturn was already below market average for the class of cars then after they reduce the dealer profit it would be below market average it will attract even more people to buy saturns because it would save them money force the competitors to lower their prices to survive now not only will saturn owners benefit from a lower dealer profit even the buyers for other cars will pay less not necessarily it seems to me that saturn salesdroids who don t make a commision whereas their counterparts at other dealerships generally do make more per hour or whatever this means that saturn doesn t give up the profit to their employees through commision which is taken out of per car profits they just pass it along to less pressureing salesmen women isn t that saving money maybe maybe not depends on accounting practices i d rather pay more for dealer service that doesn t cut corners to contain costs doug cka carolina blue honda civic dx chintan amin the university of illinois urbana champaign mail llama uiuc edu because he was human because he had goodness because he was moral they called him insane peart cinderella man
rec.autos	thinking about buying intrepid good or bad idea i m thinking of buying a new dodge intrepid has anyone had any experiences that they d like to share thanks bobc
rec.autos	re quick question in article foo ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes how do you take off the driver side door panel from the inside on an honda prelude the speaker went scratchy and i want to access its pins why are you posting this tripe to rec autos vw don t drink soap dilute dilute ok
rec.autos	re spark plug question in article mgolden cwis mgolden cwis unomaha edu brian golden writes the nice thing about real platinum plugs is that you don t have to change them very often at all i think like miles they might cost each but they would save for themselves in the long run my t bird sc s manual says to replace the platinum plugs every mi wal mart has autolite platinum plugs for each are these real platinum plugs i had bosch platinums in my fiesta and my dad had em in his bronco note the keyword had they didn t last very long much less than mi before they had to be replaced i agree that they weren t the greatest james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	re did us drive on the left in article yfkbjqs uh e tfo andrew cmu edu daniel u holbrook dh q andrew cmu edu writes stuff about rhd desoto s deleted well sweden and australia and lord knows wherever else used to drive on australians still do drive on the wrong side of the road i believe sweden changed in the way i heard it was that they swapped all the traffic signs around one sunday the wrong side of the road so the export market might have been larger then than just the uk craig
rec.autos	re quick question newsgroups rec autos rec autos vw subject re quick question summary expires sender reply to ct cunixa cc columbia edu constantino tobio followup to distribution organization columbia university keywords removing panels in article apr ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes how do you take off the driver side door panel from the inside on an honda prelude the speaker went scratchy and i want to access its pins i see only one press button and the rest is snug fit s ssave ole cdac com quick question why are you posting this to a vw newsgroup newsgroups rec autos rec autos vw subject re quick question summary distribution world organization columbia university keywords newsgroups rec autos rec autos vw newsgroups rec autos rec autos vw subject re quick question summary expires references apr ole cdac com sender reply to ct cunixa cc columbia edu constantino tobio followup to distribution organization columbia university keywords removing panels in article apr ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes how do you take off the driver side door panel from the inside on an honda prelude the speaker went scratchy and i want to access its pins i see only one press button and the rest is snug fit s ssave ole cdac com quick question why are you posting this to a vw newsgroup constantino tobio jr ct columbia edu tremble you weaklings cower in fear i am your ruler land sea and air immense in my girth erect i stand tall i m a nuclear murderer i am polaris megadeth rust in peace
rec.autos	re saturn puzzled by its pricing in article apr cbfsb cb att com ykhsu cbnewsf cb att com yung kao hsu writes i am the person who started out this subject to me the question really is not about dealer profit but the amount of money for the type of car i ve settled with a new subaru wagon with the similar amount of money a saturn dealer asked for a sw ok i know it s a model but i think i got a better car though i have to adjust my initial idea of why i am getting a new car today during a conversion with a friend i learned he rejected a saturn for a ford tarurs as it only costed him a little bit more than a sl i may be wrong but a loaded tarus beats a saturn sl i agree that a fully loaded sl would come close in price to a lower end ford taurus a fully loaded taurus on the other hand would still be substantially more expensive than even the most glitzy sl a fully loaded sl would run somewhere around while a fully loaded taurus lx would be somewhere around the range a base taurus gl i believe might start around of course there is the taurus sho which can push if you really try but this is a totally different car than your mainstream taurus sedan your statement was not entirely faulty just a little inaccurate i can t see saturn is of better value and that is why i was puzzled by its pricings oh we did not spend much time getting our deals being better informed has its advantages well that s ok at least you re not bitching about dealer profits like some of the other netters are you seem to have rationally picked out the car that is best for you the loyale is an aging design that is about to be replaced by the impreza wagon so you probably got a good deal on one of the last ones then again i may be wrong yung kao hsu mihir shah mps cec wustl edu
rec.autos	integra ls for sale integra ls for sale speed sunroof rear spoiler new tires k miles or best offer call email att hotsoup peng
rec.autos	re integra gsr in article apr ns cc lehigh edu daz ns cc lehigh edu demosthenis a zeppos writes why don t you look again at motor trend s slalom times they are right along with the integra and the car does that with small inch tires that are all weather xgtv not to mention that the integra rides alot better than a beretta my gs came with xgt v s and they are not all weather tires i took out my right front bumper sliding on packed snow not ice before i learned this fact i immediately bought xgt h s which are definately all weather a carrera i walk by everyday has xgt v s on it even the michelin dealer where i bought my new tires said the v s were made out of a different rubber that gets really hard and slick when the weather gets near feezing said he d only try to sell me those tires during the winter if we were in texas and not colorado thanks eric o an inactive lifestyle eric j lorenzo violates our genetic warranty lorenzo rintintin colorado edu not to excercise is not also spot ucsu to be fully human keith johnsgard
rec.autos	awd bmw any truth to the rumor of an awd series for i believe this info was published in either popular science or autoweek a couple of months ago also a friend told me that bmw used to make an awd called the ix i d appreciate any info about this car too thanks thanks tim
rec.autos	re saturn performance was re saturn puzzled by its pricing in article fjdcfu iv i kap andrew cmu edu jason m roth jr q andrew cmu edu writes i can t imagine any civic or saturn owners flex n there egos in stop light races it generates as much excitement as two nerds challenging each other in a game of one on one basketball the sl does in about note that this is closer to a than to a paseo or storm pseudo sporty cars that s a ridiculous comparison i know but the point is that saturns and high end civics for that matter accelerate just fine in fact better than most unimproved muscle cars of the s hp is great but tied to tons it just doesn t go that quick saturns on the other hand use hp tied to lbs with some short gearing to move very quickly off the line anyway while your time is consistent with most car magazines and reports i saw the pbs motorweek show clock a speed sl at seconds i m sure that most sl owners will be very lucky to get this speed but seconds is still astonishingly fast for a small door a new civic ex runs about seconds if i m not mistaken most cars in this class are lucky to be in the second range mihir shah
rec.autos	re awd bmw in europe you can buy a ix with computer controlled diffs rather than the horrid viscous coupled ones of the outgoing ix eliot
rec.autos	re did us drive on the left in article apr cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes deleted lines well sweden and australia and lord knows wherever else used to drive on australians still do drive on the wrong side of the road i believe sweden changed in the way i heard it was that they swapped all the traffic signs around one sunday as i live in sweden i remember the day perfectly well we changed side or sep i don t remeber the exactly time but it was in the night in the big cities like stockholm gothenburg all trafic was forbidden exept busses and taxis during the whole weekend the day was a sunday and everything was prepared in before before the day we was told to follow the yellow lines on the road and after it was the white one that matters the signs with arrows on was prepared with a left mode label that was torn off that night to reveal the new right mode arrow the year after iceland also changed about cars before the h day h as in hoegertrafik hoeger is swedish and stands for right practically all cars already had their steering wheels on the left side even the imported cars from uk had the wheel on the right side at last we have cars with the wheels on the right side more contries that uses the left side is japan tanzania i think new zeeland how about south africa btw some sais that the left side is the right side because ivanhoe and other knights meet at the left when they fight in tournaments deleted lines kent gabrin celsiustech systems my thinking is not as great as s jaerfaella sweden oliver berendinus bumble will try kega celsiustech se company sold again former name was nobeltech
rec.autos	re what is volvo and all of these cars are driven fairly hard none of them are at the head of a line of cars going mph the first two spend a lot of their operating life with the speedometer pegged and the only reason the doesn t is it has a mph speedo what i want to know is have all you people who hate volvos been traumatized by someone in a turbo wagon blowing you away on the road or what turbo in uk was good for mph useful for blowing away vw beetles though i believe the beetle corners better i can say without any doubt that i have never been blown away by any volvo ever i ve been blocked into a few car parks though by shit head volvo owners who only thought they d be a few minutes this does not happen with the owners of any other makes of car not sure how long the small shit box volvos last too damn long the worst car i ever drove was a hired in power handling and ride it was reminiscent of something from the s without the character the only ceased production a couple of years back i ve only been a passenger in the big volvos but that was enough i ought to go for a test drive because they offer some neat gifts
rec.autos	re anti theft devices in article rphroy ph gmr com rhaar gmr com bob haar writes in article kocrsv delcoelect com jdmooney kocrsv delcoelect com john d mooney writes someone writes btw somebody stole the front grille off my beat up nissan sentra a few weeks ago i couldn t believe it i m just driving around without it now years ago my brother lived in a rough area he left his nova parked on the street in front of his house for a few days one day he went to move it back into the driveway it wouldn t start seems some industrious fool needed a nova gas tank the fool found one under my brothers car the engines in vw beatles are quite easy to remove without entering the car or even opening the engine compartment how would you like to find that your car wouldn t start because the engine was stolen i would probobly feel a hell of a lot poorer a gas tank is about in a junkyard an engine more seriously though my other brother darrell left his vw on the same street someone stole the radiator out of it try finding a vw radiator in a junkyard i dare you jd john d mooney delco electronics general motors jdmooney kocrsv delcoelect com opinions expressed are mine not necessarily de s or gm s
rec.autos	re bullet proof luxury sedans in article pnigoinn in senator bedfellow mit edu chsu mtl mit edu charles h hsu writes i am interested to find out if there is any domestic car manufacturer especially gm and ford which produces bullet proof luxury sedans i understand caddy is working on one double battery super high perf engine more gauges a bit stretched etc lots of communication equipment the works color selection is limited though the problem is that the guy at penn avenue is about to get it pres clinton last time it was a lincoln this time a caddy i am just wondering if this so called bullet proof perhaps reinforced windows special materials for the body engine etc luxury car lincoln and cadillac models is readily available to the public not to my knowledge i know gm does conversion work for things like hot climates i e the chevy caprices sold to the middle east but things like that are always done by third parties not the manufacturer maybe you will need to buy a specific package that has beefed up everything perhaps the police cruiser package on the caprice crown vic and start from there do we have to go through any special dealership to obtain these cars i would really like to hear from anyone who has experience with the bullet proof cars and i wuz drivin along in my armored seville sts and this punk pulls out of nowhere with an rpg rocket propelled grenade but the bulletproof windshield stopped him don t think many people on the net have a need for bulletproof cars check with local armored service companies security bodyguard places they d know best i think your average luxury car dealer will have a coronary if you told them i ll take the blue caprice with options fz fuzzy dice pr power everything and ar armor any information regarding the dealers and after market shops that have bullet proof lincoln s and cadillac s is greatly appreciated you may email me at chsu mtl mit edu or post the message in this newsgroup if you believe other netters might be interested as well btw same information on mercedes benz bmw lexus and infiniti luxury sedans is needed as well if you have it i believe an article on the conversion process appeared in the car press within the last few months spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos c st kocrsv delcoelect com software technology delco electronics gm hughes electronics kokomo in a different kind of disclaimer
rec.autos	re top reasons why i love cr not for the humor impaired in article c wjgq a constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison writes no at six years you are nearing the end of the design life of the vehicle when everything should be breaking at that point the driving habits make more difference than the actual reliability of the vehicle so the data becomes unreliable for drawing conclusions bad driving habits can damage a car in a couple of months not years if that were not the case everyone would be driving fleet rental re solds and while you are considering things factors in stat terms how about city vs highway driving ratios owner vs dealer service extreme weather or environment adherence sp to maintenance schedules whether the car has ever been in an accident number of different drivers of the same car in a family whether the car is garaged warmed up spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos c st kocrsv delcoelect com software technology delco electronics gm hughes electronics kokomo in a different kind of disclaimer
rec.autos	re most bang for between and in rec autos cpkjp vm cc latech edu kevin parker writes i d like to get some feedback on a car with most bang for the buck in the to price range i m looking for a car with enough civility to be driven every day or even on long trips but when i hit the gas i want to feel some acceleration handling is important also as are reliability and pretty low maintenance costs a stylish appearance is nice but i don t want a car that is all show and not much go even though many of the imports are fast i don t really want a turbo and i never have cared for the song sung by a four clyinder i d prefer a v or v for the engine if you have any suggestions kevin parker there s only one car that really fits your needs it s spelled liter mustang
rec.autos	re w w or w as an additional data point i have run castrol w exclusively in the following cars rabbit scirocco rabbit bus beetle bus jetta gli i ve never had an oil related problem disclaimer it gets mighty hot down here kenneth finnegan navo navy mil
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time dunnjj ucsu colorado edu dunn jonathan james writes ak yfn ysu edu john r daker writes cup holders driving is an importantant enough undertaking this is a good idea so you can carry your non alcoholic drinks without spilling or having someone hold on to them i agree six hour long stretches behind the wheel really make me thirsty especially for something with caffeine i consider it a failing of my car that it has no cup holder nor anywhere to put a cup holder jim frost jimf centerline com
rec.autos	re what is volvo boyle bbsls bnr ian boyle writes turbo in uk was good for mph useful for blowing away vw beetles though i believe the beetle corners better i can say without any doubt that i have never been blown away by any volvo ever i ve been blocked into a few car parks though by shit head volvo owners who only thought they d be a few minutes this does not happen with the owners of any other makes of car not sure how long the small shit box volvos last too damn long the worst car i ever drove was a hired in power handling and ride it was reminiscent of something from the s without the character the only ceased production a couple of years back i ve only been a passenger in the big volvos but that was enough i ought to go for a test drive because they offer some neat gifts oh well i have to admit that the most disgusting feature of volvo s is their marketing it looks like volvo uses something like do you dare to risk your family in any car attitude which is quite annoying in the long run but now volvo has produced a new good car the volvo front drive l valves motor completely new chassis etc even the british magazine car liked it and believe me that is quite much for a volvo and the american magazine road track said that this is not your uncle olof s car and in a positive sense but in any case i d still like to own the estate strong tank like chassis l inline six rear drive btw the only car drivers who have blocked me are land rover or jaguar drivers what you mean what i drive a cheapo japanese a toyota of course i do not have money for a car like bmw merc jaguar saab volvo or etc if i had the money i would have bad problems deciding which one to buy
rec.autos	re photo radar was re rec autos frequently in article viewlogic com brad buck viewlogic com bradford kellogg writes in article mar cabot balltown cma com welty cabot balltown cma com richard welty writes q what is ka band radar where is it used should a radar detector be able to handle it a ka band has recently been made available by the fcc for use in the us in so called photo radar installations in these installations a low powered beam is aimed across the road at a degree angle to the direction of traffic and a picture is taken of vehicles which the radar unit determines to have been in violation of the speed limit tickets are mailed to the owner of the vehicle because of the low power and the degree angle many people believe that a radar detector cannot give reasonable warning of a ka band radar unit although some manufacturers of radar detectors have added such capability anyway the number of locales where photo radar is in use is limited and some question the legality of such units best advice learn what photo radar units look like and keep track of where they are used or else don t speed photo radar and mailed tickets make no sense at all speeding is a moving violation committed by the operator not the owner the owner may be a rental agency a dealer a private party or a government agency as long as the owner has no reason to expect the operator will be driving illegally or unsafely the owner cannot be held responsible for what the operator does the car may even have been driven without the owner s knowledge or consent i can t believe a mailed ticket where the driver is not identified would stand up in court this is obviously a lazy cynical boneheaded fascist way to extort revenue and has nothing to do with public safety bk we had those f g photo radar things here in sweden a while ago there was a lot of fuzz about them and a lot of sabotage too a spray can with touch up paint can do a lot of good eventually they had to drop the idea as there were a lot of court cases where the owner of the car could prove he didn t drive it at the time of speeding i especially recall a case where it eventually proved to be a car thief that had stolen a car and made false plates he ofcourse chose a license number of a identical car so the photo seemed correct in conclosion photo radar sucks every way you look at it markus
rec.autos	clifford delta car alarm just found a great deal on a clifford delta car alarm installed comes with glass break sensor motion detector and shock detector does anyone have one of these alarms are they any good from the looks of it its about the best on the market for the price it s also on sale so that s another reason to get it i think i ll be saving almost any opinions eric lucas
rec.autos	re jeep grand vs toyota runner in article pq p p seven up east sun com jfox hooksett east sun com writes any reason you are limited to the two mentioned they aren t really at the same point along the suv spectrum not to mention price range how about the explorer trooper blazer montero and if the budget allows the land cruiser any advice on how to buy a land cruiser my local toyota dealer says they get two a year and if i want one i can just get on the waiting list forget about a test drive or even kicking the tires and if they are that rare i doubt there is much of a parts inventory on hand land crusier is just simply nice with shit load of power and room fully stocked it cost i think it is worth the money only problem is when you get into accident it doesn t usually break down unless you forget to get a oil change for miles or something stupid like this body parts and other parts are very hard to locate parts are over priced also one of my friend had accident in past snow storm and he is still waiting for front bumper and passenger side fender well if you test drive land cruiser all other suv look like toys one of magazine writer called it land bruiser if you have to spare for suv get land cruiser and forget lange rover sang
rec.autos	re integra gsr in article apr cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes miles a rare screw up by honda both the gtz and gsr are flawed cars the performance enthusiasts would take the gtz and the cr purchase would be the gsr the cr purchase would be the ford probe gt john john nielsen magnus consultant to you baldrick the renaissance was just something that happened to other people wasn t it the black adder
rec.autos	re top reasons why i love cr not for the humor impaired chints iscs nus sg writes here are another ten reasons why we should all love cr car salesmen love their new car buying service car salesmen rec auto readers turned into expert statistics critics lucky owners of cr unreliable cars who say mine never had a problem those same owners joining the sceptics a few months later and later subscribing to cr and taking it soooo seriously and later on buying a cr idealized family sedan and my number the spectacle of the religious fervour of the cr true believers tom haapanen tomh metrics com software metrics inc waterloo ont stick your index fingers into both corners of your mouth now pull up that s how the corrado makes you feel car january
rec.autos	re experience opinions sought diesel engines in article hydra gatech edu jkg jmp com writes apologies if this is a faq is there a faq posting for this group i am an infrequent reader of rec autos so i can t remember i am in the market for a used chevy suburban and have observed that prices for models with diesel engines run about less than comparable models with a gas engine there has to be a reason for this yes there is consumer confusion in the early s with the fuel crisis etc everyone wanted better fuel mileage diesel fuel was the cheapest fuel available and usually provides better mileage than comparable gasoline engines so gm decided to conver their gas engine into a diesel engine i think was a liter big mistake the engine was not redesigned but converted the engine could not handle the higher compression etc lots of problems with these cars this thew up a big red flag to the casual observer don t buy a diesel they are bad this was a gross generalization ask yourself this question if your livelihood depended on driving lots of it would you use a dependable or undependable but cheaper in the short run vehicle what do greyhound busses have in them trailer trucks even train locomotives are these gasoline engines no they are diesel tractor trailer truck manufacturers provide a mile warrantee with they vehicles i own an diesel suburban the l diesel is a great engine just keeps going it was more expensive when new than the gasoline engine vehicle was the only problem with diesel engines is that when they need to be rebuilt they are expensive in a gas engine you will pay about for a rebuild diesel l is about but then again the diesel engine lasts about twice as long and gets about better mileage a carburator for a gasoline engine costs about to rebuild or less a rebuild of the fuel injection pump on a diesel will cost about or more but then again you never need a tune up if you re looking at a rebuilt l i d say you got a great deal check to see if the fuel injection pump was rebuilt also good luck
rec.autos	re necessity of fuel injector cleaning by dealership in article apr cbnewsl cb att com prm cbnewsl cb att com paul r mount writes in your experience how true is it that a fuel injector cleaning will do much more good than just using detergent gas while i agree that a clogged fuel injector would darken my day how clogged do they get and is a good price or can i do it myself by buying a can of what and doing what a fuel injector cleaning at the dealer is probably little more than them opening your gas tank dumping in a bottle of fuel injector cleaner and sending you on your merry way poorer go to kmart and buy the cleaner yourself for just because you dealer sez you need it don t mean it s necessarily so be suspicious jim grey jwg acd acd com
rec.autos	rfd rec autos saab request for discussion this is a request for discussion on the creation of a newsgroup concerning saab cars it will allow participaants to exchange information on purchasing maintaining repairing and outfitting saabs group name rec autos saab status unmoderated rationale there may be enough people with saab cars or interested in buying a saab or interested in knowing more about saabs for any reason to justify such a new newsgroup the recent growth of the net could improve the turnaround time between posing a question and receiving answers from the community discussion comments on this proposed new newsgroup should be posted to the usenet newsgroup news groups if the reader is not able to do so comments may be e mailed to the proposer at the address below voting if no problems arise voting will start month from the posting date of this rfd proposer tommy reingold tommy boole att com tommy reingold at t bell labs holmdel nj tommy boole att com or att boole tommy
rec.autos	re audiwatch update tm in article apr news cs brandeis edu andyh chaos cs brandeis edu andrew j huang writes in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian j queiser writes powell interlan interlan com glen d powell writes the kind of corporate raiding apparently undertaken by vw is shameful agreed however the particular execs had been working with iggy for many years and had left gm europe to go to detroit with their raison andy i was out of date vw is stealing execs directly from opel independent of lopez shameful andy
rec.autos	re quick question in article apr ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes how do you take off the driver side door panel from the inside on an honda prelude the speaker went scratchy and i want to access its pins there is something going on here it seems that once a month the vw group must have get a specific detailed question about hondas i would like to ask that next month we get one about hyundai instead of honda thank you andy
rec.autos	re male female mystery re dumbest automotive concepts of all time bets chester ksu ksu edu beth schwindt writes this has me thinking is there a biological reason why women can t put their keys in their pants pockets like men do i have two pockets on the back of each of my pants i put my keys in one and wallent in another many of the pockets even have a botton on them so i can close them securely everything is that much simpler for me why can t women do the same is is biological ie not enough room for a bigger bottom plus keys and a wallet or is it the way they are raised by the parents i ve found that it has to do with the way women s clothes are made if you put keys in the front pocket of women s jeans or slacks you get a bulge that also tends to make it impossible to sit down because they stick you constantly ditto in the back pocket also try looking at the back pockets of women s jeans and compare them to the back pockets on men s jeans they are usually if you buy jeans that you expect to last for any length of time about half the size there flat out isn t room for a wallet or a bunch of keys besides which where would men put all their crap if their wives didn t carry purses the same place single men do wallet in back pocket comb in other back pocket keys in front pocket knive in other from pocket pen in shirt pocket or front pants pocket or do married men start carrying around a bunch of stuff to keep there women happy beth mark b
rec.autos	performance of new mustangs does anyone know the performance ratings for a or l ho mustang lx like the time mile and top end also can you tell me which magazine where these s come from so i can look them up if possable if you could the year and month and eveen page if you have it thanks doug
rec.autos	us made m b suv mercedes benz announced yesterday its plans to begin building sport utility vehicles in the us by they are targeted at the jeep grand cherokee et al and will reportedly sell for less than did anyone see a picture is it the g wagon gelaendewagen currently available in europe and in the us by grey market or is it an entirely new vehicle any details would be appreciated dick meyer applied research laboratory penn state
rec.autos	re us made m b suv in article rsm psuvm psu edu rsm psuvm psu edu writes mercedes benz announced yesterday its plans to begin building sport utility vehicles in the us by they are targeted at the jeep grand cherokee et al and will reportedly sell for less than did anyone see a picture is it the g wagon gelaendewagen currently there is a picture in the may edition of european car although it may not be on the shelf yet some things that the article says prototype has front wheel drive first front drive for mercedes since the beginning of wwii wheelbase m seater they claim that the price will be about the same as a renault espace or chrysler voyager dm looking at the picture slightly disguised it looks like the ford aerostar to me available in europe and in the us by grey market or is it an entirely new vehicle any details would be appreciated dick meyer applied research laboratory penn state larry keys csmes ncsl nist gov oo v fahrvergnugen forever the fact that i need to explain it to you indicates that you probably wouldn t understand anyway
rec.autos	re w w or w in article jgladu jgladu bcm tmc edu grungy john f gladu writes in article apr cs tulane edu finnegan invader navo navy mil kenneth finnegan wrote as an additional data point i have run castrol w exclusively in the following cars rabbit scirocco rabbit bus beetle bus jetta gli i ve never had an oil related problem add mine to that list superbeetles bugs dddpanel cringe toyota tercel it s my wife s car honest i m still chicken about running it in the vanagon that s got castrol w in it i don t understand this last statement about the vanagon our vanagon owner s manual recommends w ari ollikainen former vw fanatic bug bug porschepower porsche sc bugauto stick camper camper westfalia vwporsche westfalia vanagon westfalia and now only vanagoncarat
rec.autos	honda crx for sale my friend david gordon wants to sell his honda some of the details of th e car are as follows five speed a c am fm cassette stereo ps pb rear window defroster excellent condition asking obo please call him at
rec.autos	re necessity of fuel injector cleaning by dealership in article apr acd acd com jwg sedv acd com jim grey writes in article apr cbnewsl cb att com prm cbnewsl cb att com paul r mount writes in your experience how true is it that a fuel injector cleaning will do much more good than just using detergent gas while i a fuel injector cleaning at the dealer is probably little more than them opening your gas tank dumping in a bottle of fuel injector cleaner and sending you on your merry way poorer go to kmart and buy the cleaner yourself for this should not be the case if they are at all reputable fuel injector cleaning is done properly with a can of injector cleaner solvent which is hooked up to the fuel system under high pressure the car is actually run on the solvent during the cleaning process the equipment to properly do this is pricey and generally not something the average home mechanic has the solvent itself is not very expensive and you could probably make up a hose to fit your system and do it yourself but i didn t tell you that not many in tank cleaners are worth wasting your money on there has been a discussion of these products on here from time to time and chevron techron not pro gard with techron is generally regarded as the best it is however a bit more than a bottle imho it will not substitute for proper injector cleaning if they are really crudded up you ll have to decide if the price is a better deal than spending your time and or buying equipment to do it scott keller the agricultural group of monsanto company sekell bb t monsanto com ka wch packet ka wch k pfx mo usa na
rec.autos	used taurus sho purchase quoting jeffrey j nucciarone s nucci microwave gsfc nasa gov article c g hv cs skates gsfc nasa gov of in pertinent part jj i am considering buying a used taurus sho the car in jj question has k miles i took it for a test drive the other day jj and a few questions came up jj jj jj second is there anything i should specifically look for in an jj sho of this vintage anything i should specifically ask abt jj brakes cluthch etc i noticed on the drive the clutch engagemen jj point seemed a little high since all my other cars are auto tragics jj i m not sure abt this point i had my foot firmly planted on the jj brake when i started it up there was a bit of a pop in the pedal jj soon after the engine started this also occured on a few t bird sc jj i test drove was this the abs self test brake rotors and the clutch are the main things there has been a clutch replacement program you might check to see if the car is still eligible as it is a change well worth making you can also swap the cruddy cable shifter for the newer rod shifter also a change worth making but that ll cost you some my brakes usually do one wibble wobble on startup so that is probably normal didn t know they had a self test that s interesting what kind of tires does the car have on it winqwk b for a good time dial on your sho
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time my ford has vent windows operated by a crank just like a window only it opened out like a normal vent window my f my dad s bronco and pretty much every truck i ve seen that s worth riding in has vent windows does that mean that i m not a young feller anymore james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center i don t understand the fascination with vent windows they create a tremendous turbulence and noise that makes even a simple connversation impossible at speeds above mph the current flow throuh ventilation if designed right are far more superior bijan
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time not exactly dumb but who remebers the tachometer on the or firebird bulging out of the hood right in front of the driver neat place but i love to know what the elemnts did to its internals after a few years also does the speedomete pointer on many us cars have to be feet long bijan
rec.autos	re was re safety from how far can you see a car ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes these lit up cars make non illuminated things less visible like pedistrians and bikes hopefully we re not going to mandate drl s for people and bikes too well drl s are already mandatory for motorcycles jon hacker get the os march beta cd rom caltech pasadena ca for hacker tumbler ridge caltech edu call ibm os
rec.autos	re top reasons why i love cr not for the humor impaired in article apr news cs brandeis edu andyh chaos cs brandeis edu andrew j huang writes in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john f nielsen writes in article apr metrics com tomh metrics com tom haapanen writes chints iscs nus sg writes here are another ten reasons why we should all love cr or the spectacle of macho real men who would never bother to read the magazine but are more than apt to criticize it but that s the point we do read it or at least we did then we found that their recommendations were useless and uninformed then we write lists the cr flame war is so easy to start because they are so wrong and claim to be so right and so thorough andy ok if you are so right name a few good examples that were brought up john john nielsen magnus consultant to you baldrick the renaissance was just something that happened to other people wasn t it the black adder
rec.autos	re car insurance help in article c x yq l news claremont edu ochaine jarthur claremont edu ollie north chaine writes help my car insurance has been cancelled for the second time in a row i still haven t gotten in touch with my agent from aaa because she s out for the week but my mom said that i got a call saying that my insurance was going to be cancelled because of an accident not even a fender bender that was never declared or anything besides the fact that i have no idea how they found out about this the only other thing that could bug them is that i have ticket but i told them about it and they said that it wasn t a problem if i go to another insurance i know i will end up paying more b c i already shopped around for this one and i can t afford to pay for the insurance especially since i still haven t gotten the the two insuance companies are supposed to refund me i just got a new saturn sl and can t afford the car payments and the insurance but i bought the car having gotten a quote from state farm which they later went back on please help me what legal rights do i have can i make state farm who originally gave me the quote give me that rate they made a mistake after i signed all the papers i did not give any false evidence how can i get my money back for the car if i can t pay for the insurance i m deperate ollie i just went through this mess in new jersey i m still waiting for a refund as well namely that the original company made a mistake and left me in the lurch my recourse was through nj s insurance dept office of consumer protection you should have a similar office in your state make use of it good luck chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx pending delivery agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.autos	re top reasons why i love cr not for the humor impaired in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john f nielsen writes in article apr metrics com tomh metrics com tom haapanen writes chints iscs nus sg writes here are another ten reasons why we should all love cr car salesmen love their new car buying service and later on buying a cr idealized family sedan and my number the spectacle of the religious fervour of the cr true believers or the spectacle of macho real men who would never bother to read the magazine but are more than apt to criticize it hey i m a macho real man and i do read it so i can criticize it all i want especially since i pay for the publication they accept no outside advertising don t you know john nielsen magnus consultant to you baldrick the renaissance was just something that happened to other people wasn t it the black adder relying on consumer reports to pick your automobiles is like letting field stream select your living room furniture kenneth finnegan navo navy mil
rec.autos	re lh car order delay i read an article in the chicago tribune stating that chrysler is having problems addressing the demand for the l engine for it s lh cars can anyone post how long they are waiting for an ordered car or how long they have been told they ll have to wait ordered mine december got it nine weeks later but the dealer said that new orders were being held up he didn t expect to see any more l engine lhs for awhile andrew klossner andrew frip wv tek com
rec.autos	re male female mystery re dumbest automotive concepts of all time in article pq tkinnbek chester ksu ksu edu bets chester ksu ksu edu beth schwindt writes besides which where would men put all their crap if their wives didn t carry purses beth my wife rarely carries a purse so all of her crap ends up in my pockets ron deblock rdb homxb att com that s a number in rdb not letter l at t bell labs somerset nj usa
rec.autos	illegal tint windows i know it s a long shot but maybe someone went through this and will have some comments to share the story is this i bought a car out of state and i m trying to get the safety inspection in pennsylvania the problem is that the car has aftermarket tint on all windows except the windshield the tint is rather weak and you can clearly see the inside of the car through the tint the inspection garage said that they won t pass it unless i get a waiver from the state police so i went to the state police the officer told me that aftermarket tint is illegal and i can get a waiver only for a pre car or for a medical reason i asked him to show me the section of the vehicle code that says it s illegal he showed it to me and the paraghaph said that you can t have tint if you can t see the inside of the car because of the tint when i told him that you can in fact see the inside very well he shut the book and said it s just illegal and in fact we can have someone give you a ticket for it right now well won t argue with that since the vehicle code says it s ok as long as you can see through the tint i d like to keep it i ll re read the vehicle code in the library i d also like to get some sort of paper from the police that says it s ok so i can get the inspection and so that i won t get in trouble for the tint later on i also wouldn t mind registering a complaint against that officer he really pissed me off so does anyone have any experience getting that sort of a paper from the police especially in pennsylvania does anyone have any experience registering a complaint against an officer i called the station later on today but they basically said there is no place where i could register a complaint against an officer and if i do decide to keep the tint and get a ticket anyway how much of a chance do i stand to succesfully appeal the ticket in court any comments about it will be welcome michal
rec.autos	re top reasons why i love cr not for the humor impaired in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john f nielsen writes blah blah blah ok if you are so right name a few good examples that were brought up let s create a new group rec autos cr is right no its not yes it is oh yeah my father can lick your father eliot
rec.autos	re new saturn argument in article c p m o noose ecn purdue edu rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu robert j wade writes ok how about this to argue about why does the sl have a much lower base price than the sc it s over k cheaper i forget the exact amount doesn t it cost more to have the extra doors windows locks motors etc that are in the door perhaps it is just a marketing deal people want the door so they will pay the extra k the sc sc has a shorter wheel base than the sl sl sl sw sw just a thought ithink your right though james lee a t t bell labs murray hill n j room a att conceps jwl
rec.autos	chevelle ss forsale i don t want to sell this car but i need money for college chevelle super sport rebuilt four speed bolt positrac numbers match original miles no rust looks and runs excellent or best offer call dennis at or email dennisk cs uoregon edu
rec.autos	re top reasons why i love cr not for the humor impaired in article apr cs tulane edu finnegan navo navy mil writes in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john f nielsen writes in article apr metrics com tomh metrics com tom haapanen writes chints iscs nus sg writes here are another ten reasons why we should all love cr car salesmen love their new car buying service and later on buying a cr idealized family sedan and my number the spectacle of the religious fervour of the cr true believers or the spectacle of macho real men who would never bother to read the magazine but are more than apt to criticize it hey i m a macho real man and i do read it so i can criticize it all i want especially since i pay for the publication they accept no outside advertising don t you know john nielsen magnus consultant to you baldrick the renaissance was just something that happened to other people wasn t it the black adder relying on consumer reports to pick your automobiles is like letting field stream select your living room furniture kenneth finnegan navo navy mil no one should ever rely on just a magazine to determine what car they buy i don t care what magazine btw i subscribe to three other auto rags i just think cu is getting a bum rap by these macho men from hell who think real men should read statements like what you said above have no meaning people keep on saying cu is only good for dishwashing detergent or as you said relying on consumer reports is like and that is all they say if there were as critical of themsevles as they are of cu maybe there would be some real content john john nielsen magnus consultant to you baldrick the renaissance was just something that happened to other people wasn t it the black adder
rec.autos	impreza altima or what a friend of mine is cnsidering buying a new car and is considering the subaru impreza or the nissan altima right now which of these two cars would you recommend we definately want an airbag and abs and room for tall people and long legs if you have other suggestions for cars under k after dealing i d be interested in you opinions as well please send replies to sem postoffice mail cornell edu no tthis address thanks scott
rec.autos	re advise needed in buying automobile from thwang mentor cc purdue edu tommy hwang subject advise needed in buying automobile i am in search of a dependable automobile to purchase below are its requirements v or above most of the cars you mentioned are below smaller than v engine tony name antonio l balsamo company digital equipment corp shrewsbury mass work e mail balsamo stargl enet dec com
rec.autos	re integra gsr quad reliable yeah what s your definition of reliable if that s reliable then its safe to say that integra engines in general are near perfect not to mention a hell of alot smoother and quieter balance shafts the acura has the engine wins the reliablity contest hands down you can rev that car all day everyday and you ll never blow a hose or crack the block or anything else i speak from expierence i m not saying the quad is a bad engine but don t highlight reliability when you comparing it to a acura engine and while the integra costs alot more it is a a couple of things blowing a hose doesn t speak of engine reliability and while it is true that quad s have a problem with head gasket leaks that was a design flaw in the gasket and has been corrected also i know pontiac is replacing head gaskets that leak for free for year k miles other than that i have found my quad to be completely solid and the direct ignition system means no wires rotor rotor cap to ever deal with also hydrolic lifters mean no valve adjustments ever i m not badmouthing the integra engine i just think you are going overboard on slamming the quad you are quite correct that the integra engine is quieter although i would not say smoother my quad loves to rev especially at the high end do you have any evidence of blocks cracking on quad s i have not heard of this
rec.autos	re most bang for between and in article oasys dt navy mil tobias oasys dt navy mil steve tobias writes in rec autos cpkjp vm cc latech edu kevin parker writes i d like to get some feedback on a car with most bang for the buck in the to price range i m looking for a car with enough civility to be driven every day or even on long trips but when i hit the gas i want to feel some acceleration handling is important also as are reliability and pretty low maintenance costs a stylish appearance is nice but i don t want a car that is all show and not much go even though many of the imports are fast i don t really want a turbo and i never have cared for the song sung by a four clyinder i d prefer a v or v for the engine if you have any suggestions kevin parker there s only one car that really fits your needs it s spelled liter mustang not sorry he said cvility long trips reliability and low maintenance cost
rec.autos	re necessity of fuel injector cleaning by dealership in article apr acd acd com jwg sedv acd com jim grey writes in article apr cbnewsl cb att com prm cbnewsl cb att com paul r mount writes in your experience how true is it that a fuel injector cleaning will do much more good than just using detergent gas while i agree that a clogged fuel injector would darken my day how clogged do they get and is a good price or can i do it myself by buying a can of what and doing what a fuel injector cleaning at the dealer is probably little more than them opening your gas tank dumping in a bottle of fuel injector cleaner and sending you on your merry way poorer go to kmart and buy the cleaner yourself for personally i wouldn t use the product from kmart i knew about this previously but this past weekend on pbs s motorweek pat goss their resident tech type discussed these products and recommends not using them i e the non isopropyl alcohlo based injector cleaners supposedly only the isopropyl based cleaners actually remove moisture from your fuel tank as they clean your injectors and although the others ethyl based do clean injectors they also cause rubber components in the fuel system to deteriorate and they don t mix well with water to help remove it from the fuel system i use a product recommended by vw called k by bg products inc it cost more about but it is supposed to do the job without the potential harmful side effects and its results are supposed to last from k to k miles i have also used chevron s techtrolene sp i can t say that i have noticed any difference using either since i only use these product as a preventative maintenance item just because you dealer sez you need it don t mean it s necessarily so be suspicious jim grey jwg acd acd com larry keys csmes ncsl nist gov oo v fahrvergnugen forever the fact that i need to explain it to you indicates that you probably wouldn t understand anyway
rec.autos	re svx oil change in article c f i undergrad math uwaterloo ca swdwan napier uwaterloo ca donald wan writes my friend brought a subaru svx recently i had drove it for couples times and i think its a great car esp on snow however when she took it to a local subaru dealer for a oil change the bill came out to be about dollars the dealer told us it is because to change the oil filter on a svx it is necessary to disassemble a metal cover under the engine and that took an hour of labour at first we think we are being ripped off so she phone to a dealer in toronto but found out the they are charging roughly the same price so is there any svx owner out there that has the same problem and if the oil change story is true then the engineer of subaru looks pretty stubid to me by the way the car looks great labour prices for car service are very expensive in toronto compared to other parts of ontario for example there are places in ottawa that still charge only hour i ve seen a couple of places charging hour the cheapest i ve heard in toronto is hour swd wan doug zolmer internet dwjz bnr ca disclaimer my opinions only bell northern research ltd ottawa ontario canada conform moooo
rec.autos	re w w or w zowie daedalus stanford edu craig powderkeg deforest writes if you re planning on making long drives the w is probably fine esp in the summer in your w car but if you re making short drives stick to the w several years ago gm was having trouble with the rings sticking on the diesel they traced a cause to the use of w oil they would not honor warranty work if w was used if my memory serves me or was ok d though mark b
rec.autos	re male female mystery re dumbest automotive concepts of all time in article pima inn gap caltech edu wen king cs caltech edu wen king su wrote in article apr iscnvx lmsc lockheed com sharen iscnvx lmsc lockheed com sharen a rund writes apparently you re not a woman my husband hates the auto door locks features but forgets that besides families with children a woman feels safer in a car that locks easily in addition to watching around checking out if anyone s near me when i get to my car never park in a secluded spot etc have my keys ready to open the door so i m not fumbling in my purse looking for them this has me thinking is there a biological reason why women can t put their keys in their pants pockets like men do i have two pockets on the back of each of my pants i put my keys in one and wallent in another many of the pockets even have a botton on them so i can close them securely everything is that much simpler for me why can t women do the same is is biological ie not enough room for a bigger bottom plus keys and a wallet or is it the way they are raised by the parents women s pants rarely have pockets and most when they do are too shallow to use i is very important for a woman to have her keys in her hand when she goes from building to a car it is protect herself from would be assilants by broadcasting that this is someone who as a definite place of safty ie a locked car puting keys and walet looks ugly it breaks the lines and makes you rear look wide as a cows also to have the habits that work for any clothing situation the pruse functions no mater what you are wearing even nude or a bikni a women s suit coat is lucky to have pockets on the outside none on the inside i have men s coats that have as much as pockets this is definitally not fair as one that wears both men s and women s clothes i can tell you women s clothes have few if any funtional pockets when dressed as a man i put my wallet on my inside coat pocket and my keys in a coat outside pocket it is much more covenent than the pants pockets and looks better having a car that unlocks quickly and locks back fast is paramout to a woman s safty men don t see this as a problem a woman is aware of this every time she goes out i e image some red necks yelling at you we are going to fuck you and the out weight you by lbs and have inches in hight on you if you want to find out why a women does something live as one celeste
rec.autos	brake rotors cross drilling 
rec.autos	re saturn s pricing policy in article apr cs brown edu cs cs brown edu hok chung tsang writes moreover if saturn really does reduce the dealer profit margin by then their cars will be even better deals say if the price of a saturn was already below market average for the class of cars then after they reduce the dealer profit it would be below market average it will attract even more people to buy saturns because it would save them money force the competitors to lower their prices to survive but what is saturn s motivation here they re already selling every car they make with multiple shifts in the plant given this what possible motivation could they have to lower prices cheers richard richard welty welty cabot balltown cma com nothing good has ever been reported about the full rotation of a race car about either its pitch or roll axis carroll smith
rec.autos	re new saturn argument in article c p m o noose ecn purdue edu rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu robert j wade writes ok how about this to argue about why does the sl have a much lower base price than the sc it s over k cheaper i forget the exact amount doesn t it cost more to have the extra doors windows locks motors etc that are in the door perhaps it is just a marketing deal people want the door so they will pay the extra k ok here s what i understand the sl sl sl sw sw was meant to compete with the following cars honda civic toyota tercel sl sl toyota corolla sl sl nissan sentra mazda protoge subaru loyale impreza isuzu stylus geo prizm ford escort mercury tracer mistubishi mirage plymouth dodge colt their core competition is the civic corolla and sentra most of the other models are in the same class but aren t the first cars you would think of i threw in the escort tracer because it has a good amount of japanese technology and has similar reliability stats i didn t include domestic small cars such as the cavalier sunbird shadow sundance tempo and topaz since i think saturn is going after cars that have at least some degree of japanese roots the sc sc was meant to compete against the following cars toyota paseo honda civic si civic coupes del sol si nissan nx nx mazda mx isuzu impulse geo storm ford escort gt if you look at the prices of these cars they re more expensive than they re door counterparts the is good reason for this it is a more upscale and trend driven market even though many of these models are based on sedan platforms their interior etc is good enough to warrant slightly higher prices here are some of the platform derivations i can think of tercel paseo sentra nx nx civic del sol mx not sure on this one stylus impulse storm to illustrate a tercel starts at around while the paseo starts at around even a door tercel will cost less than a door paseo now you might be saying that the tercel doesn t offer the power that some doors offer what i mean is that there is no dr tercel with a comparable powerplant as its sport coupe derivative let s take another example the isuzu stylus xs and impulse xs storm gsi both have the same powerplants a l hp engine but the smaller dr coupes are generally more expensive again this is because the two door sport coupe market is a more fashion oriented and trend setting segment people are willing to pay more money for this type of car in short even though the sc sc may be smaller hence less car it s market orientation dictates a slightly higher price than its mechanically equivalent sedan sl sl version i hope this clears things up a bit mihir shah
rec.autos	apology was re did us drive on the left in a previous article dh q andrew cmu edu daniel u holbrook says i m guessing but i believe in the twenties we probably drove mostly down cattle trails and in wagon ruts i am fairly sure that placement of the steering wheel was pretty much arbitrary to the company at that time by the s there was a very active good roads movement which had its origins actually in the s during the bicycle craze picked up steam in the teens witness the linclon highway association or so and the us highway support act real name something different in that first pledged federal aid to states and counties to build decent roads also the experience of widespread use of trucks for domestic transport during ww convinced the government that good raods were crucial to our national defense anyway by the s there were plenty of good roads at least around urban areas and they were rapidly expanding into the countryside this was the era after all of the first auto touring fad the motel the auto camp ground etc two good books on the subject spring to mind warren belasco america on the road title may not be exact author is and another called the devil wagon in god s country author i forget also any of john flink s or john bell rae s auto histories i m sorry as i have never heard of any of this guess they don t think it s important enough for a classroom and i was going on what i ve seen in pics some movies real nice scource there huh i just always recall thinking that good roads of asphalt didn t come around til the interstate hiway act or whatever they called it s and that wood and cobblestone roads were fairly rare up through the depression except in overpopulated places like england and us cities obviously netwisdom says i am wrong as to placement of the steering wheel being arbitrary by the early teens there were virtually no american cars that did not have the wheel on the left in the early days cars had the wheel on the left on the right and even in the middle as well as sometimes having a tiller instead of a wheel this was standardized fairly early on though i don t know why i knew it was almost always done but i knew of no reason that it might not be done the other way by desoto for their car seems like they had some other deviations from the norm too at times dan dh q andrew cmu edu carnegie mellon university applied history world history strides on from catastrophe to catastrophe whether we can comprehend and prove it or not oswald spengler thanx for corrrecting me and again i aplogize for harebraned post drew
rec.autos	re most bang for between and jmh hopper virginia edu jeffrey hoffmeister writes in article apr progress com damelio progress com stephen d amelio writes rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu robert j wade writes there s only one car that really fits your needs it s spelled liter mustang sports car butm my mothers gt was considered a sports car i still can t quite figure that out since when do plastic add ons make a car a sports car jeff we re talking about insurance agents from bumf k illinois st farm is hq ed in bloomington what the hell do they know about cars both are sports cars chintan amin the university of illinois urbana champaign mail llama uiuc edu because he was human because he had goodness because he was moral they called him insane peart cinderella man
rec.autos	re do it yourself front end alignment possible davidd lonestar utsa edu david de leon writes in article bu edu selick csa bu edu steven selick writes i ve got an plymouth colt that i d like to do a front end alignment on is it possible to do without all of the fancy schmancy gadgets the pros have how steve no no no no if you do so you are putting the lives of others on the road at consider able risk why do you think mechanics are ase certified anyway you put it you need those fancy scmancy gadgets awww right you want all the home mechanics lined up against a wall and shot eh bull pucky you chicken read the service manual and get your head out of the sand certainly there are tools for the job that are cheaper than an alignment rack that do the job as competently albeit not as swiftly if not more accurate due to the natural pride an owner mechanic places on his work you can do an acceptable job of aligning a car using simple tools and some imaginative work that would never have the effect of endangering anyones life the worst that happens is that your tires wear oddly well you could have the wheels aiming totally pigeon toed and not be able to steer the car raise your hands those that think their vision is so poor that they would screw up this badly i bet you are one of those people that feels that honing a cylinder wall with sand paper will kill millions of people it aint magic go take the certification course and look at the people that have never learned to add in their whole life that are taking the certification btw i am disgusted at the colt and some of the other chrysler offerings because they go out of alignment if you sneaze at them my chrysler laser similar to the daytona a reskinned colt needed a realignment every months bolt a good grade x to each wheel using a carefully welded spacer jig measure toe in adjust to manufacturer specs camber a bit more difficult to adjust and measure i used a micrometer to measure the space between the rim and a funky bent up pipe that could be placed on upper and lower portions of the rim on the inside of wheel hard to explain this same tool could be used instead of the x s i had made these tools up right after the last alignment done professionally so i had a reference that the original poster might not ciao mark
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time seningen maserati ross com mike seningen mph speedos esp the electronic ones the digital dash of the cougars with the large analog clock in the middle of the dash everything was digital except the stinking clock the funny thing about the digital dash t bird with the mph speedo limit was that if you pressed the button to convert to kilometers it would read all the way up to kph at this point the stock anemic would get short of breath this of course was equivalent to about mph hehe i bet i really coulda confused this thing if i d toyed with the engine and rolled the stupid thing the digits were limited to i ve gotta agree with ya on the analog clock w digital dash though my girlfriend had a turbocoupe with a digital clock and analog gauges radio go figure usenet constellation ecn uoknor edu usenet administrator i love the keyless entry on my t bird it s great for those times that i had to stop to put air in my tires i could get out and lock the door with the engine running while i ran around to air up the tire it also i had a great feature on my t bird i could pull the key out and leave the ignition on this scared the hell out of me the first time it happened but i kinda grew to like it musta been a bad key copy or something mark novakovic there is no god up in the sky tonight no sign of heaven anywhere in sight nin jesus loves ya blow me in tribute to my former area supervisor jim bonneau and the infamous bonneau math demoted not departed ministry
rec.autos	re do trains have radar hhtra usho hou chevron com t m haddock writes i came upon a train parked on a trestle with its locomotive sitting directly over the northbound lanes just as i passed from underneath the trestle my radar detector went into full alert all lights lit and all chirps beeps and buzzes going strong could this have been caused by the train s radio or what recently manufactured locomotives have wheel slip detection systems that use frequencies shared with police radar i forget which band these will set off your radar detector if you get close enough though i believe the range is pretty short btw railroad police sometimes use radar to check for speeding trains just like regular police check for speeding cars although the intent here is for safety not revenue collection unlike with cars
rec.autos	re braindead drivers who don t look ahead in article zdem a hgo zdem a hgo hou amoco com donna martz writes so i block the would be passers not only for my own good but theirs as well even though they are often too stupid to realize it as a rule of philosophy i don t feel particularly sorry when somebody gets offed by his own stupidity but it does worry me when some idiot is in a position to cash in my chips too h h mayo well aren t we just mr altruism himself just what the world needs another frustrated self appointed traffic cop well if you want to stick the nose of your car up the ass of a foot semi i suppose it s your neck however i m not going to let you kill me in the bargain if you get frustrated by somebody delaying your inevitable death due to less that wise driving practices then tough thank god for the fourth of july for it yearly rids the earth of a considerable load of fools mark twain
rec.autos	re changing oil by self in article apr lmpsbbs comm mot com sheinfel ssd comm mot com aviad sheinfeld writes do you think i can use a electric drill change to a suitable bit to turn it out if i can succeed can i re tighten it not too tight is it safe without oil leak tighten the bolt to the specified torque in your service manual that way it won t leak strip break etc hopefully thank you very much in advance winson aviad you can avoid these problems entirely by installing an oil drain valve in place of the bolt i have one on both of my cars there have been no leaks in miles combined miles on both cars ron deblock rdb homxb att com that s a number in rdb not letter l at t bell labs somerset nj usa
rec.autos	re aftermarket air conditioners in article qcaueinnmt axon cs unc edu andrew brandt writes i looked into getting a c installed on my honda crx si the unit is plus shipping installation is like hours on top of that this is a hunk of change does anyone know any place that does aftermarket a c installation not with a honda a c unit but some third party unit i cannot seem to find anyone who can put a third party a c unit in a honda i am in no carolina so i would prefer some place nearby but any references would be handy thx andy brandt cs unc edu sorry i can t help you with your question but i do have a comment to make concerning aftermarket a c units i have a frost king or frost temp forget which aftermarket unit on my cavalier and am quite unhappy with it the fan is noisy and doesn t put out much air i will never have an aftermarket a c installed in any of my vehicles again i just can t trust the quality and performance after this experience les les bartel i m going to live forever intergraph corporation or die trying electronics division ljbartel ingr com or ljbartel naomi b b ingr com
rec.autos	re braindead drivers who don t look ahead i agree that if traffic is all blocked up and you want to pass you might not feel like moving over for someone behind you because you don t want to give them that one car length when they should just wait like you are but if you re one of those people that just sit s behind the person and doesn t flash them with the high beams or pull left and flash them or ride their bumper or otherwise tell them that you do in fact want to go by and you re not just drafting them then get the hell out of the way of someone who will i especially hate it when you flash someone at the back of a line and they don t pass it on and there s also the issue of some cars being more intimidating to get people out of the way than others for instance gts look pretty mean in a rearview mirror at night with the foglights on there have been plenty of times when i ve broken up a pack that a second in line hyundai has been behind for miles you just need to know how to get their attention i d like to see you use this method on a couple of semi drivers if they see you they usually acknowledge by sticking their hand out the window with their middle finger extended because it is also obvious to them that there is no clear lane ahead h h m
rec.autos	my day in court results a while back i asked for help in defending a traffic ticket i received in short the ticket was for not stopping at a stop sign given the conditions i could not stop in time and decided instead of sliding right through the intersection i would complete my right turn and avoid a possible accident a police cruiser happened to be approaching the intersection from my left and gave me the ticket the officer said the only reason that you even slowed down in the first place was that you saw me approaching otherwise you would have bombed right through i would like to thank all those who responded favorably to my request for help to all of those who told me to bite the bullet and pay the fine phghghghgh the judge sided with me and decided that in this case not stopping was the safest thing to do and found me not guilty the officer s statement and my account of the conditions at the time very slippery backed by newpaper weather conditions were the factors what made the judge decide on his verdict moral if you have never been to court before and you think you have a case go for it it is a very interesting process and it is there for your benefit exercise your rights trev name trevor paquette landmark ita fahrvergnuegen email tpaquette ita lgc com calgary alberta canada visitor from cyberspace g renegade of virtual reality include disclaimer h o o
rec.autos	re saturn manual transmission problem i had exactly the same problem with a horizon third gear would just disengage engine would rev up kind of disconcerting i sold that car quite a few years back but the memory of that tranny sticks with me it also had a clutch chatter in first that the dealer could not fix if the lemon law had been in place then that car would have been covered i have had several jap cars since then figuring the horizon was my contribution to the american auto companies and have never seen any bad behavior with the exception of a toyota tercel with a bit of clutch chatter that they did fix on the first try anyway from that day forward i have sworn that i would never purchase another american car with a standard american manufacturers don t have a clue on how to manufacture five speed transmissions and have been doing the automatics much longer and on many more cars however i hate automatics so i am still buying jap cars not sure this is any help but other cars do this too cheers larry larry rogers larry rogers dg com big brother larry boris webo dg com is watching data general the opinions contained herein are my own and do not reflect the opinions of data general or anyone else but they should sometimes we are the windshield sometimes we are the bug dire straits
rec.autos	regal fiberglass parts i have a regal and i am interested in buying a fiberglass hood trunk and bumpers for it does anybody know of a company who makes fiberglass parts for regals thanks in advance mike
rec.autos	re do trains have radar in article x fvt b dixie com jgd dixie com john de armond writes hhtra usho hou chevron com t m haddock writes while taking an extended easter vacation i was going north on i somewhere between centerville tx and dallas tx and i came upon a train parked on a trestle with its locomotive sitting directly over the northbound lanes there appeared to be movement within the cab and out of curiosity i slowed to to get a better look just as i passed from underneath the trestle my radar detector went into full alert all lights lit and all chirps beeps and buzzes going strong i thought i had been nailed good but no police materialized some but not all locomotives have doppler speedometers the radar head is mounted looking down at the ground to minimize intereference sent and received but looking tangentally at a wheel these are low power units and typically won t trigger radar detectors unless an unusual situation such as yours arises john john de armond wd oqc interested in high performance mobility performance engineering magazine tm interested in high tech and computers marietta ga send ur snail mail address to jgd dixie com perform dixie com for a free sample mag need usenet public access in atlanta write me for info on dixie com this makes sense radar pointed down because almost every train i pass head on that triggers my radar detector does so more just after i have passed the front of the engine i get a little of the reflections as i am approaching and the instant i get to the side of the first engine the detector receives a fairly strong signal for a short time it happens with just about every train i see
rec.autos	re electronic odometers was used bmw question i consulted with someone working on an electronic odometer the design was to use a microprocessor based system to write a somewhat ofuscated pattern into an eeprom the idea was to make the circuit difficult to program arbitrary values into the eeprom the secondary purpose acutally the primary purpose from the standpoint of practicality was to distributed the writes so as to avoid exceeing the maximum number of writes fof the eeprom being used the microprocessor also ignored pulses coming from the hall effect at a rate any higher than mph so as to make spoofing the reading by bench pulsing at least somewhat undesirable this was for an automobile that was not expected to ever exceed mph in operation the case of course might not be the same for your rx the ecm modules of some cars do indeed store info about conditions under which cars have been operated since steering angle and velocity data etc is available it would not be difficult to collect all sorts of interesting demographic information about the drivers use of the car i am not aware of any manufacturer currently trying to enforce warranty restrictions based on reading out use data from the ecm while it could be a potential invasion of your privacy for manufacturers to have access to data about your driving style it could also provide valuable information from actual field use conditions to help engineer more appropriate cars i personally wouldn t mind the dealer collecting my driving demographics as long as it is done in an anonymous fashion bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown oh usa phone wtm uhura neoucom edu n wed
rec.autos	re open letter to nissan in a previous article smorris sumax seattleu edu steven a morris says or here s an even better suggestion why don t you guys go ahead and buy the rest of fuji heavy industries subaru and put either an in line or v into the legacy wd wagon i d buy the legacy in a minute if it had a nissan engine instead of the horizontal that they seem sentimentally attached to what do you find so wrong with the flat in the subaru s or the flat for that matter dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.autos	after market cruise controls specific questions howdy i m a little new to this newsgroup but i would like to tap some of the knowledge and expertise available here the subject after market cruise controls the background i recently broke my ankle in a road bicycling accident places five screws yuk in two weeks i will be returning to texas my home from my school byu in provo utah as you can imagine trying to drive nearly miles with a broken right ankle isn t just the epitome of a good time my car does not have a cruise control so i would have to do all the pedalling ha ha with my messed up ankle my question what is the general opinion of after market cruise control units i realize that a cheap cc cruise control from say pep boys isn t going to be as good as a factory or professionally installed unit if there is such a thing and i uderstand that i probably can t expect much in the way of accuracy looks and that sort of thing but anything s gotta be better than trying to drive with a hosed ankle i have a jeep cherokee speed standard l engine with kettering sp ignition y know distributor cap rotor that set up not electronic maybe you could ve guessed it being an but i m just trying to give information as completly as i can i found a cc unit for bucks it seems to use the vehicles vacuum system instead of an electric servor motor is this good or bad if i did buy this cc which vacuum hose should i tap it has two speed sensors one magnetic and one that gets a signal from the negative side of the distributor kinda like a tach pick up or so i understand i can use either one which is best the manual says i read it in the store today that the magnetic axle set up is more accurate but harder to install is there really a big difference it has a sensor for the brake pedal just like other ccs but does not have a sensor for the clutch pedal so if i wasn t paying real close attention i might push the clutch in while the cruise is trying to get the speed up which would wind the engine up kinda high until i got my wits about me and turned the thing off i m pretty coordinated so this doesn t bother me if it were for my girlfriends car then it would bother me but i m ok with it the installation also calls for an attachment to a steady on brake signal and a switched on brake signal i think i can get a switched brake signal from the correct side of the brake light blade fuse am i right but i m not sure where to get the steady on brake signal or for that matter what exactly it is any ideas as to what the manufaturer wants and where to get it i think i can figure the other things out like how to hook up the negative side tach type sensing gizmo and the cabin control unit and the ground and all that miscellaneous business but i need a little help with is it worth the money and safety risk if any for such a device is there any particularly good after market cc are professionally installed ccs signifacantly better and worth the cabbage if the unit i saw sorry no manufacturer or model number just that it is at pep boy and its is sufficient for my simple needs how do i get the thing installed properly specifically the questions above my father and i built a veep volkswagen powered jeep cj a when i was in high school so i consider myself fairly good with tools electronics and cars so the installation doesn t scare me i just want to be certain that i get the thing installed correctly as my cherokee is just a wee bit more complicated than my veep i appreciate your time in reading my post and i would appreciate any expertise or opinion anybody has on the subject if you would like to share some of your wisdom please email as i don t get over this group very often but i check my mail all the time again thanks for any help anyone may have mike wieda mikew canc byu edu
rec.autos	re did us drive on the left rob reilly whips and their tempers initially all cars were built with the driver s controls on the right because that s the way people drove buggies so the this is just not so many of the earliest cars had their steering controls in the center of the vehicle and there is no discernible pattern of left or right hand steering controls until a few years into the th century when in america at least left hand wheels became the pattern the mule team or horses i imagine explanation however seems to have some merit dan dh q andrew cmu edu carnegie mellon university applied history this coffee plunges into the stomach the mind is aroused and ideas pour forth like the battalions of the grand army on the field of battle memories charge at full gallop the light cavalry of comparisons deploys itself magnificently the artillery of logic hurry in with their train of ammunition flashes of wit pop up like sharp shooters honore de balzac cups day
rec.autos	re license plates nissan in a previous article edf marshall wvnet edu says hi i m interested in getting the list for license plate numbers if anyone has a listing i d appreciate getting a copy of it thanks you must be incredibly bored have you considered reading the phone book dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.autos	re isuzu amigo opinions sought in a previous article sdexter shl com scott dexter says i like the amigo i would like some feedback any and all feedback appreciated yet another jeep wannabe designed for yuppies who will never take it off road but want to look outdoorsey dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.autos	re license plates in a previous article edf marshall wvnet edu says hi i m interested in getting the list for license plate numbers if anyone has a listing i d appreciate getting a copy of it thanks you must be incredibly bored have you considered reading the phone book dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.autos	re truck tailgates mileage in article mar ns cc lehigh edu jh ns cc lehigh edu jun he writes in article mar nosc mil koziarz halibut nosc mil walter a koziarz writes in article hpscit sc hp com chrisw hpscit sc hp com chris wiles wr ites consumers report did a study i think and found that most trucks got worse mileage with the tailgate off the tailgates on the newer trucks actually help oh sure they do and replacing the front bumper and grille with a closet door helps mileage and cooling if cr actually said that then they have bigger fools working for them than the fools that believe their drivel but who am i to argue this just someone that s been a pickup driver for years that s all forget the net just take off the tailgate on hiway trips since the nets aren t designed to nor capable of restraining a load in the bed anyway around town the tailgate will have a negligable effect on mileage anyway walt k they may help to improve mileage in some cases i believe with the tailgate on the flow structure behind the cab may differ and the vortex drag may be reduced during high speed driving how about those toneau covers i ve been thinking of building one from chipboard for roadtrips any comment on how they affect mileage in highway travel charles within the span of the last few weeks i have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person
rec.autos	chevy sprint i have a chevy sprint with a c and doors it s odometer turned k and the sensor light started blinking i went to the dealer and he said it was a maintenance light saying i need to change the oxygen sensor he said it is to be changed every k but since i bought the car when it had k i don t know if the same thing happened at k and k he quoted for the part and to install it the part cost outside but the mechanic i went to could not fix it saying the sensor is placed too deep in the engine parts he suggested i wait till it malfunctions before i do anything if anyone out there owns a chevy sprint i want to know how they got their oxygen sensors changed also did you face any problem with fixing it without the dealer s help also what are the results of the oxygen sensor malfunction any help would be greatly apprecisted thanks nagesh
rec.autos	re old corvettes low insurance in article apr ns cc lehigh edu swr ns cc lehigh edu scott warren rosander writes in article c csux fn news cso uiuc edu gdhg uxa cso uiuc edu george hei nz writes after too many years of school i m finally graduating and getting a real job of course i am trying to make plans of how to spend all this extra money right now i have an accord a good car but not real sporty i was thinking of selling it in about two years and dropping around k on a sports car of some kind after thinking about it i may have a better idea i ll keep the accord until it drops and buy the car i ve always wanted a corvette stingray my reasoning is that accord corvette is less than what i would spend anyway basically i m thinking of a late s early s for around k my question is what are good years to consider for reliability looks horsepower in that order believe it or not horsepower is not a main concern if i want to go fast i get on my motorcycle and what are good prices also what would insurance look like i m male single i might wait until i m to get the car lower insurance would the fact that i mainly drive the other car lower it is there some type of classic car or rarely driven insurance class for driving it under k miles per year my dad has a vette and its on what you say classic insurance basically what that means is that it has restricted amount of driving time which basically means it cant be used as an every day car and would probably suit your needs for limited mileage in addition to restricted mileage many classic insurance carriers also require that the vehicle be garaged when not in use ericy eric youngblood bell northern research richardson texas peon w o email privs
rec.autos	re changing oil by self in article apr cbnewsj cb att com rdb cbnewsj cb att com ronald j deblock jr writes you can avoid these problems entirely by installing an oil drain valve in place of the bolt i have one on both of my cars there have been no leaks in miles combined miles on both cars yes but then someone would have no problem draining your oil in a parking lot all they have to do is reach underneath turn a valve and forget the trip home but there is less likelyhood they have a wrench with them i personally recommend installing a special locking drain plug to keep vandals away steve
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time in article c hqj unix amherst edu bhtulin unix amherst edu barak h tulin writes i just started reading this thread today so forgive me if it has already been mentioned but what was the deal with renault s putting the horn on the left hand turn signal stalk it was a button on the end where the washer button would be on the wiper washer stalk could the frenchies not figure out the wiring through the steering wheel or what well before we start calling the engineering folks in france a bunch of braindeads for this my mercury capri had this lovely feature this was not the earlier german variant but the newer one that was identical to the mustang of current fame i can t tell you how many times this feature pissed me off come to think of it my brothers zepher had this as well robert dilmore dilmore cray com going back to an earlier thread imagine having to turn left shift gears flash a stray driver in the intersection with your left hand high beam on the headlight stalk and after the driver wouldn t move having to honk the horn on the left hand stalk gives me the heebie jeebies barak
rec.autos	re do trains busses have radar in article c fqfy fpq usenet ucs indiana edu mliggett silver ucs indiana edu matthew liggett writes in apr usho hou chevron com hhtra usho hou chevron com t m haddock writes while taking an extended easter vacation i was going north on i somewhere between centerville tx and dallas tx and i came upon a train parked on a trestle with its locomotive sitting directly over the northbound lanes there appeared to be movement within the cab and out of curiosity i slowed to to get a better look just as i passed from underneath the trestle my radar detector went into full alert all lights lit and all chirps beeps and buzzes going strong i thought i had been nailed good but no police materialized could this have been caused by the train s radio or what i don t know about trains but i ve saw a sign on the back of a greyhound bus that warns you that your radar detector may be set off it doesn t explain why but it does set off my radar detector from the e net desk of rick colombo cd dcd dsg fermi nat l acc l lab fermilab p o box ms feynman computer center batavia ill usa colombo fnal fnal gov of course i speak for fermilab congress and the president not
rec.autos	re sprayed on bedliner info wanted in rec autos dennis hpcvra cv hp com dennis schloeman writes xsorry to repost this again so soon but xthe information from my earlier post was xdeleted from our system xi am looking for information concerning x sprayed on bedliners for pickup trucks xa company here does it using polyurethene xbut they ve only been around for months xso there s not much of a track record here xis the sprayed on bedliner any good how xwell do they hold up over the years any xinfo would be appreciated x xthanks x xdennis do you have a ziebart dealer in your area they ve offered spray on bed liners around here for several years if you do see what kind of a warranty they have unfortunately i don t know anyone who has gotten one so i can t help you there also ask if they can give you a list of references mack costello mcostell oasys dt navy mil code formerly david taylor model basin carderock division hq nswc bethesda md phone
rec.autos	car buying story was christ another dealer service scam in article qhs dinnj b hp col col hp com tvervaek col hp com tom vervaeke writes experience with jeep service dept while not exactly a service incident i had a similar experience recently when i bought a new truck i had picked out the vehicle i wanted and after a little haggling we agreed on a price i wrote them a check for the down payment plus tax and license and told them i d be back that evening to pick up the truck when i returned i had to wait about an hour before the finance guy could get to me when i finally got in there everything went smoothly until he started adding up the numbers he then discovered that they had miscalculated the tax license by about he then said he needed another from me i said we had already agreed on a price and it was their problem i wasn t giving them any more money the finance guy then brought in the manager on duty who proceeded to give me a hard time i reminded him that i was the customer and i didn t think i should be treated like that and that if he didn t back off he could forget the whole deal he made some smart remark so i told him where he could stick it snatched back my check and left needless to say they were not pleased by the turn of events early the next morning i got a call from the general sales manager wanting to know what happened i related the story and he apologised profusely and asked if there was anything they could do to change my mind i told him that if they gave me the truck for free i probably still wouldn t take it that there were other dealers in town i was a repeat customer of theirs and that they should learn how to treat customers etc etc i was still pretty steamed about the whole affair he gave me the line about hating to lose a customer and they would try to find a solution etc etc i told him not to bother thanks i d go somewhere else a couple hours later the owner of the dealership called me all apologetic etc etc etc and said that they would cover the plus knock another off the price of the truck i told him i d think about it and he gave me his private direct phone number his secretary s name and assured me that they valued me as a customer etc etc etc i thought about it for a few hours and discussed it with my wife and we decided what the hell that was a pretty decent deal so i called him back and accepted his offer when i went back the next day to pick up the truck i received the royal treatment everyone seemed to know about the incident even the lot boy everything went smoothly and i was out of there in my new truck in about mins so i guess i m a reasonably satisfied customer however it should not have happened in the first place i was a bit shocked to have a sales person talk to me like that i don t expect them to bow and grovel but i sure don t expect to be given a hard time either esp when it s their mistake anyway i m happy with the truck and it turned out to be a couple hundred dollars under invoice and they paid most of the first year s license fee i m not sure whether i ll go back to that dealer tho mark
rec.autos	re changing oil by self in rec autos boyle cactus org craig boyle writes xin article qgi einnhs skeena ucs ubc ca yiklam unixg ubc ca yik chong lam x writes x hello x x does anyone know how to take out the bolt under the engine x compartment should i turn clockwise or counter i tried any kind x of lubricants wd etc but i still failed x do you think i can use a electric drill change to a suitable x bit to turn it out if i can succeed can i re tighten it not too x tight is it safe without oil leak x xassuming you don t have a russian car with opposite threads then xyou turn counterclockwise i would get some professional xhelp here you may not have located the draing plug and xactually be trying to loosen something else x xcraig x x x thank you very much in advance winson x this reminds me of the first time my cousin did an oil change on his car he crawled under removed a bolt drained the fluid replaced the bolt then carefully poured in quarts of oil didn t bother to check the dip stick just drove off didn t get too far till me found out that he d drained the speed trans and dumped an extra quarts into the engine moral as craig said don t be ashamed to get some in person help the first time mack costello mcostell oasys dt navy mil code formerly david taylor model basin carderock division hq nswc bethesda md phone
rec.autos	re changing oil by self in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu sorlin magnus acs ohio state edu steven j orlin writes in article apr cbnewsj cb att com rdb cbnewsj cb att com ronald j deblock jr writes you can avoid these problems entirely by installing an oil drain valve in place of the bolt i have one on both of my cars there have been no leaks in miles combined miles on both cars yes but then someone would have no problem draining your oil in a parking lot all they have to do is reach underneath turn a valve and forget the trip home but there is less likelyhood they have a wrench with them i personally recommend installing a special locking drain plug to keep vandals away steve i was worried about someone stealing my oil once also i finally decided to just have my drain plug welded shut it works great i figure that when i add three or four quarts when the oil light comes on every month or so that it s just as good or better than the old wives tale of changing the oil and filter every miles works for me i must say
rec.autos	re changing oil by self in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu sorlin magnus acs ohio state edu steven j orlin writes in article apr cbnewsj cb att com rdb cbnewsj cb att com ronald j deblock jr writes you can avoid these problems entirely by installing an oil drain valve in place of the bolt i have one on both of my cars there have been no leaks in miles combined miles on both cars yes but then someone would have no problem draining your oil in a parking lot all they have to do is reach underneath turn a valve and forget the trip home most cars have drain petcocks in the radiators and i ve never seen nor heard of a vandal opening one i imagine that there would be an even lower risk with an oil plug because you have to crawl furthur under the car to open it car vandals are usually real traditional in their methods and do things that don t get them dirty like keying your car dumping sand sugar or mothballs in the gas tank tping it etc boycott usl novell for their absurd anti bsdi lawsuit drew eckhardt condemn colorado for amendment two drew cs colorado edu use linux the fast flexible and free unix
rec.autos	mazda forsale for sale mazda mazda white exterior grey interior miles interior in very good condition exterior in good condition pioneer dx car stereo cd player fm presets am removable faceplate seperate component speakers professionally mounted in the doors the car has been well maintained i wax it often and keep the interior clean its a good running car with a solid body no rust thru tiny spots of surface rust when i see a spot i touch it up the stereo makes the car i have had no mechanical problems with it i m looking for firm the car has an average wholesale value of about without the stereo the stereo cost me last july if you are interested call or email me at carl mercer cm cci com evening
rec.autos	re license plates in article apr marshall wvnet edu edf marshall wvnet edu writes hi i m interested in getting the list for license plate numbers if anyone has a listing i d appreciate getting a copy of it thanks you can go to the dmv and ask for their listing although i don t know where you may actually buy a copy you can use theirs for your perusal in california the listing of personalized license plates run volumes each about thick i hope this is what you re asking for ken kenneth k f lui klui corp hp com hanover street ms bj corporate administrative information systems palo alto ca usa core application technologies fax
rec.autos	re changing oil by self rist another dealer service scam in a previous article bmoss grinch sim es com brent woody moss says i was worried about someone stealing my oil once also i finally decided to just have my drain plug welded shut it works great i figure that when i add three or four quarts when the oil light comes on every month or so that it s just as good or better than the old wives tale of changing the oil and filter every miles works for me i must say i did the same thing to my drain plug for the same reasons i was wondering how you filled your crankcase though as i welded my hood shut also out of fear that somebody might steal my air filter dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.autos	rec autos welcome to to the new reader archive name rec autos part most recent changes march addition of alt autos karting rpw welcome to rec autos this article is sent out automatically each month and contains a general description of the purpose of each of the automotive newsgroups and some suggested guidelines for discussions the keywords monthly posting will always appear to make killing this article easy for users of newsreaders with kill facilities this article is posted to all autos groups but followups are directed only to rec autos if you don t understand what this means ask your system administrator for help or at least for copies of the newuser documentation failing that please subscribe to the newsgroup news announce newusers and read the documentation provided there introduction to the rec autos newsgroup hierarchy rec autos tech is intended for technical discussions of automobiles their design construction diagnosis and service other discussions are largely inappropriate especially for sale ads rec autos sport is intended for discussion of legal organized competition involving automobiles technical discussions are appropriate insofar as they apply to competition vehicles discussion from either of two viewpoints spectator and participant is encouraged arguments about sports cars are largely inappropriate as are most other discussions for sale ads are inappropriate unless they are for competition vehicles and or equipment discussions of illegal events are marginal one should probably avoid advocating breaking the law remember the fbi reads usenet rec autos driving is intended for discussions related to the driving of automobiles also if you must discuss vs or radar detectors or insert your pet driving peeve boneheads do it here rec autos vw is intended for discussion of issues related to the use and ownership of automobiles manufactured by volkswagen this includes vws audis seats etc it was created on the grounds that the info vw mailing list was very successful it should not be presumed from the existence of this group that it is appropriate to create many groups to cover many different marques groups specific to individual marques should only be created on demonstration of sufficient interest via some avenue such as a mailing list rec audio car is not properly part of the rec autos hierarchy it is however the correct place for discussion of automotive audio equipment and so is mentioned here rec autos antique is intended for the discussion of older cars usually more than years old although this is not a hard and fast rule alt hotrod is not part of the hierarchy but also of potential interest to the rec autos reader it is gatewayed to the moderated hotrod mailing list and is for serious discussion of modifying and developing performance vehicles alt autos rod n custom also not part of the official hierarchy devoted to that peculiar american hobby of customizing older cars alt autos karting for the discussion of the popular motorsport and hobby karting rec autos is intended to capture discussion on all other automotive topics crossposting crossposting occurs when more than one newsgroup name is included on the newsgroups line in the article header such articles will appear in all of the newsgroups listed crossposting is one of the most misunderstood and misused facilities on usenet you should only post to a group because you feel an article is appropriate you should never crosspost just to reach a particular audience this distinction is subtle but important radar detector articles for example are more or less appropriate in rec autos they are almost never appropriate in sci electronics or rec ham radio and the fact that you might want to reach the audience in sci electronics or rec ham radio is not adequate justification for posting to either group crossposting between any or all of the rec autos groups is usually inappropriate if you find yourself doing so consider whether or not it is truly advisable before sending your article consider setting followup to to point to only one newsgroup if you feel you must crosspost crossposting between rec autos and misc consumers is chancy at best in particular flame wars over the speed limit in the us and or the use of radar detectors should never be crossposted between any of these groups most readers of sci electronics and rec radio couldn t care less about the police radar and radar detector arguments that go on endlessly in rec autos it is an excellent idea to check the newsgroups and followup to lines of articles before posting a followup in particular be wary of posting to misc test rec arts startrek or talk bizarre or any combination of these three the life you save may be your own distribution there is a field in the header of any news article which allows you to partially control where the article goes it is called the distribution field it may be very useful for many reasons it should also serve as a reminder that news is a very large and widespread system the distribution of rec autos is fairly extensive as of this writing the automotive newsgroups are known to reach most of europe australia new zealand and some locations in japan with this in mind i offer the following hints about use of the distribution field in your article headers and on article content please take care not to send for sale ads about clapped out ford mavericks in new jersey to france or california i doubt that anyone in either place will care except for my girlfriend who for some strange reason likes mavericks but only door mavericks at that when posting technical questions please include the market for which your car was manufactured for example there are a number of differences between a european market ford escort and a us market escort likewise all cc and early cc alfa romeos reached the us with spica fuel injection european market cars usually got carbs often webers these differences can be important to your readers make your situation clear failure to do so can lead to pointless flame wars and a significant spread of misinformation be careful about your capacities and specifications when posting in the us we get a mix of metric and english system values whereas europe is almost entirely on the metric system a future edition of this monthly posting will contain a list of commonly used abbreviations that may not be known in some places that rec autos reaches this cuts both ways so let us not be parochial about it use the distribution field to limit where your article goes when possible within north america the values na north america can canada and usa may be used in addition the two letter state abbreviations of the us are supported in some cases e g if i wanted to send an article only to new york and new jersey i could put ny nj in a distribution field note that multiple comma separated values are legal these distribution fields vary widely however so you should check with your local sysadmin to find out what is likely to be supported in your area the dangers of overgeneralization to amplify a warning from the distribution section of this article be wary of making foolish assumptions about all cars tires etc what is true for a buick with a cid engine may be quite utterly wrong for a honda with a cc engine headlight laws in sweden are decidedly different from those in idaho the need for adequate specification when you ask a question please give a reasonable amount of information e g if you have a question about your honda please specify year model engine size etc otherwise most answers to your question may be quite useless concerning lemons at one time or another every auto manufacturer has manufactured a lemon or two even honda admits to this please don t waste everyone s time by announcing to the world that your brand x automobile is terrible so all brand x automobiles are terrible so no one should ever buy a car from the brand x company such articles are worse than useless because they cause substantial wasted bandwidth while carrying little or no useful information concerning flames as much as we might wish it a flame free newsgroup is something that most likely will never occur here are some guidelines for flames and how to deal with them a list of flame prone topics follows in the next section of this posting if you post something truly obnoxious and inflammatory don t imagine for a minute that including the words no flames will work it won t and you ll get exactly what you deserve if you re going to flame you re more likely to get away with it if you can cite a fact or maybe a well known reference no one is likely to believe bald unsupported assertions be careful about who you choose to insult consider not insulting anyone asking the question it is a bad idea to post a question and end it with a phrase like please send email i don t read this group it is a much better idea to end the question with please send email if there is sufficient interest i ll summarize the results in a later posting i may miss posted responses to this request answering the question if someone wants to hop up their yugo don t tell them to get a mustang either be silent or give them useful advice if someone wants advice on defending a speeding ticket don t tell them to obey the law next time it s offensive presumes guilt which is not proven and doesn t directly address the original question in general don t post in order to see your words in print and don t post in order to enjoy feeling smug and self righteous stale and or inflammatory topics certain topics are considered stale by old timers while discussion of them is certainly ok and new factual information is welcome ravings about them are extremely tiresome and may get the person who posts them ignored altogether some topics are naturally inflammatory it is difficult if not impossible to have meaningful discussion of them some of these topics include the following the mph speed limit in the us pro and con discussions about the morality and legality of the sale and usage of radar detectors discussions over which radar detector is best discussions over what is a sports car this is one reason why rec autos sport is not a sports car group everyone would argue about what constitutes a sports car disputes over whether or not us federal law protects the driver s right to own and operate a radar detector buy american discussions clever bumper stickers and personalized license plates insert nationality here cars are terrible what kind of car did maxwell smart drive when i have a complete accurate answer it will be added to the commonly asked questions article which is also posted monthly until then please don t waste bandwidth on this topic rpw please direct comments and suggestions about this article to welty cabot balltown cma com richard welty welty cabot balltown cma com nothing good has ever been reported about the full rotation of a race car about either its pitch or roll axis carroll smith
rec.autos	rec autos frequently asked consumer automotive questions archive name rec autos part this article is one of a pair of articles containing commonly asked automotive questions the other article contains questions more geared to the automotive enthusiast and so is not crossposted to misc consumers rpw changes as of april revised brake fluid section as non silicone dot fluids are now apparently available rpw commonly asked automotive questions tire questions q what do the funny numbers on the sides of my tires mean a typically you will see something like hr the is the overall width of the tire in millimeters the tread is usually narrower the is the aspect ratio it indicates the height of the sidewall of the tire relative to the overall width our example tire has a sidewall height of mm the is the wheel diameter in inches there are also some special tires called trx tires which have three digit metric wheel diameter designations like which is in millimeters the r means radial and the h is a speed rating indicating the highest speed at which the tire when properly inflated and carrying an appropriate load may safely operate common speed ratings are s mph t mph h mph and v up to mph recent changes to the method for specifying tire sizes move the speed rating to a different part of the designation you may therefore find designations like r h the indicates the per tire load associated with the speed rating exceeding this load in continuous operation at the rated speed is dangerous practice what follows is a table showing a number of load indices and corresponding maximum per tire loads load index max load kg note that the usual mass vs weight confusion occurs in this table in some cases the letters p or lt may be found in front of a tire size the lt designation indicates light truck and the p designation indicates passenger car if no letter is given then the application of the tire is passenger car usage as far as i know these letters only appear in the us market the lt designation is prinicipally of interest to owners of light trucks and other utility vehicles for the owner of a passenger vehicle there is no meaningful difference between a tire with a p designation and one with no designation at all if the aspect ratio is omitted it is probably but may be tires with an ms mud snow designation may have their speed rating reduced by km h about mph there is an additional set of ratings on tires for temperature traction and treadwear temperature and traction are graded a b and c with a the best and c the worst treadwear is a numeric rating these values are of limited value as they are assigned somewhat arbitrarily by tire manufacturers and are thus not useful in comparing different brands of tires q my car has tires with a funny size designation hr can i put normal tires on the car a your tires are called trx tires they were devised by michelin because of a somewhat different bead design they are incompatible with normal tires michelin used a different diameter wheel for them so that they could not be mounted on the wrong type wheel and so that more conventional tires could not be mounted on trx type wheels you will need to aquire different wheels to put a normal tire on your car it is barely possible to fit normal tires on trx wheels and horribly dangerous to do so the tires may simply peel off the rims in a corner or possibly blow out at high speed trx type tires are becoming hard to find in addition to michelin avon makes suitable tires goodyear has apparently discontinued their line of trx tires q can i rotate radials from side to side or rotate them only on one side of my car a car and tire manufacturers have differing views on this subject many say that swapping radials between the left and right hand sides of a car is now ok this group includes michelin and goodyear others for example pirelli and nokia will void warranties if such swapping is done the best advice is to read your tire manual carefully before rotating your tires and stick to the manufacturer s recommendations q how many snow tires should i buy and if i buy which end of the car should i put them on a in short and both ends to explain many drivers in areas that don t get excessive snow or who don t drive agressively or at all in snow conditions get away with only two snows on the drive wheels but there are circumstances where this can be dangerous practice with a rear wheel drive car you can choose between being able to start the car going a function of the rear axle or stopping and turning the car a function of the front axle in a front wheel drive car you start stop and turn with the front end the primary risk of putting the snow tires on the front only is that if you have to put on the brakes while going downhill you run a serious risk of going downhill backwards radar detectors and speed limits q why aren t there any comments on radar detectors and speed limits in this q a posting a because questions about detectors and speed limits crossposted between misc consumers and rec autos always start long tedious and pointless flame wars if you want to talk about either of these topics please subscribe to rec autos or alt flame and keep it there safety equipment q do airbags really work a preliminary statistics suggest the following airbags work much better than no belts good point belts alone work much better than airbags alone and airbags point belts work slightly better than point belts alone the con to airbags is that some designs tend to burn the driver s hands when venting the byproducts of the explosion that occurs inside the bag and that some designs but not all may knock the driver s hands from the wheel making retention of control of the vehicle after the bag deflates more difficult brake questions q do i always need to get the rotors on my disk brakes turned midas always wants to do this a no there are specific conditions that mandate turning or replacing rotors some shops try and make a little extra money by replacing rotors more often than is strictly necessary if the rotors are not warped warped and only lightly grooved then there is no need to replace or to turn them note also that some rotors the rotors on many hondas are a good example are so narrow to begin with that it is not practical to turn them they must be replaced when they become too thin warped or badly grooved q they tell me i should downshift when braking to slow my car down is this really a good idea a it used to be a very good idea back in the days of mediocre fade prone drum brakes in modern disc brake equipped cars use of downshifting to slow the car is not really necessary except in cases of long steep downhill runs otherwise modern disc brakes are more than adequate to stop a passenger car in all circumstances and they are much cheaper to repair than clutch linings on the other hand many standard driver s license tests in the usa still specify that the driver being tested downshift under braking i suggest that before taking a us driver s test you either learn to do this smoothly which takes some time and practice or borrow a car with an automatic to take the test q how often should i replace my brake fluid a probably more often than you do traditional brake fluids tend to absorb water this water can corrode internal parts of the brake system and also lower the boiling point of the fluid dot type are older fluids dot and dot are newer specifications the principal differences are in wet and dry boiling points the dry boiling point is important in fresh brake fluid but the wet boiling point is important in older brake fluid dot fluids have the lowest wet and dry boiling point requirements dot fluids have better boiling point requirements and dot fluids have the best boiling point requirements but dot fluids are not clearly superior see the next q a for more details while the requirements imply that dot fluids are better than dot fluids there may be specific cases where a dot fluid is preferable but these are mostly competition applications otherwise dot type fluids offer much improved brake pedal feel replacement once a year is recommended for dot fluids although agressive drivers may profit by changing out fluid more frequently or at least bleeding a modest amount of fluid out of the brake calipers fairly regularly q what about dot brake fluids a this breaks down in to two parts the dot specification looks excellent for performance but the first dot fluids were silicone based silicone fluids are a tricky proposition unlike dot and dot fluids they do not absorb water at all while this may sound like a feature the problem is that any water present pools up in such systems interfering with braking performance and corroding any metals at the spot where the pooling is occuring the water will tend to migrate downwards in the braking system to the brake calipers where most of the corrosion occurs because of this phenomenon it is essential when converting to silicone to empty the entire brake system and flush it throughly beforehand some even recommend replacing all rubber parts in the brake system when converting to silicone fluids two other issues that come up with silicone fluids they are difficult to pour cleanly that is without air bubbles which interferes with getting a good brake pedal feel and while they generally have much higher boiling points than dot fluids they do have high temperature failure modes which are indistinguishable in effect from boiling dot fluids silicone fluids may make sense in some street car applications but they are certainly not recommended for high performance driving applications and the economics are questionable for street use i have recently become aware of new fluids that meet the dot standard that do not contain silicones these fluids appear to be reasonably compatible with the older dot and dot fluids but i have little information at this time q abs is available on some of the cars i m looking at but it costs more is it worth it a this does not have a cut and dried answer therefore this answer will be quite long in order to cover the pros and cons the short answer is that abs costs more both initially and to maintain will generally work better for the average driver that is to say a driver who does not have extensive experience in high performance driving techniques and may require the unlearning of some obsolete braking techniques like pump braking which should be unlearned in any case now for the long answer abs works by monitering the wheels of the car looking for signs of locked brakes it may or may not be able be able to distinguish between the different wheels there are several systems on the market it cannot detect impending lockup which is what you would really want in an ideal world but only the existence of lockup the sensors used vary some of the less well designed sensors are sensitive to tire size and to brake pad material and may cease to function properly if the owner deviates from original equipment or oe equivalent components when the sensors detect lockup the abs system responds by unlocking the brakes either individually or all at once depending on the system if the driver keeps their foot firmly planted the abs will end up cycling between the locked and unlocked states if a sensor existed that could detect impending lockup then we could sit right at that point which is where maximum braking effect is achieved this pulsing can often be felt in the brake pedal as the system cycles the percentage of the time that the brakes are truly engaged is called the duty cycle typically in an abs system this is about on dry pavement a trained driver can beat this duty cycle quite reliably using a technique called threshold braking on wet pavement braking is so chancy that abs will outperform threshold braking nearly every time unfortunately on mud and on snow often maximum braking effect can be acheived with the brakes locked only audi of the manufacturers producing abs equipped cars has seen fit to provide a disable switch for the abs system for this eventuality a particularly important feature of abs is that it preserves steering control this is the case simply because if you are braking near the limit and turn the wheel the abs will release the brakes if it sees steering triggered lockup and back off on the percentage of the time that the brakes are applied braking distances will lengthen accordingly an important caution abs cannot exceed the maximum theoretical braking force in any given situation if you start sliding on glare ice don t expect an abs system to help you out very much the coefficient of friction is not changed by the presence of an abs system in your car as far as maintenence goes in addition to the potential restrictions i ve listed above you have to worry about the following parts costs are much higher the oe master cylinder for my obscure european sedan lists for but the oe master cylinder for the abs equipped version of the same car lists for over most manufacturers explicitly forbid use of dot silicone brake fluids in abs equipped vehicles because of the potential cost of replacement of corroded brake system components regular i suggest annual replacement of brake fluid becomes very important q what about this threshold braking business a normally i d not put this in the consumers q a but recent publicity about a number of accidents involving police drivers in abs equipped chevy caprices suggests that this section is needed here rpw threshold braking is a technique practiced by all serious high performance drivers if made a habit it replaces the stab the pedal and lock em up panic habit entirely and is much to be prefered basically the premise is that tires generate maximum braking force when they have just started to slide but just before the wheels lock up entirely drivers who threshold brake learn to feel what this threshold feels like and learn to search for it and hit it on the application of the brake pedal in many cars you can feel that you are near the threshold when the pedal starts to firm up as you depress it in any case if you can t hear the tires whine just a bit you re not very near the threshold in a car with abs often there is a twinge in the pedal just before the system starts cycling if the driver backs off on the pedal just a tad when the twinge is felt then they are very close to the threshold and they ll probably achieve better stopping distances than if they just punched it and let the abs take over recently there has been a rash of publicity over a number of accidents and one death involving police cars equipped with abs systems the police departments in question quickly blamed the new abs systems but according to autoweek magazine it now seems clear that the problem was a lack of training none of the involved officers had any recent performance driving training there is reason to believe that the drivers reacted to the pulsing brake pedal by pump braking an old and discredited technique of stabbing and releasing the brake pedal the goal being to try and get brakes back with a failing hydraulic system if you think about it for a minute you ll realize that pump braking must cut the effective operation of a working brake system by at least so if you cut the duty cycle of an abs system by that much you are giving up most of your brakes for the wrong reason threshold braking has the advantage in that it is an effective and useful technique regardless of whether your car has abs if you do fear a failed hydraulic system then one or two stabs at the pedal will be sufficient gas questions q does high octane gasoline help a maybe maybe not some cars have knock sensors and can adjust the engine timing or turbocharger boost to suit the gasoline being used on most cars however you should use the cheapest gas that makes your car run well check your owner s manual for details on what your car needs q my car was made for leaded gasoline will unleaded gas hurt it a it is possible that unleaded gas may slightly increase valve wear although the amoco oil company argues otherwise the actual increase in valve wear will be almost unnoticeable however as modern leaded gasolines actually contain very little lead you should however check your owner s manual many cars from the early s do not actually require leaded gasoline q do fuel treatments help what kind should i use a some do and some don t during the winter it is a good idea to use dry gas however some may be harmful to fuel injection systems never use an additive containing methanol sometimes called methyl alcohol such additives may damage fuel systems in cars with carbs and almost certainly will damage cars with fuel injection manufacturer s opinions vary on additives containing ethanol sometimes called ethyl alcohol if your car has fuel injection check the owner s manual on your car before using these most manufacturers consider ethanol acceptable in gasoline additives with isopropyl alcohol isopropanol and petroleum distillates are fine in fuel injected cars an occasional bottle of fuel injector cleaner is helpful in cars with fuel injectors although many premium gasolines contain detergents that do the same job some off brands of fuel injector cleaners contain ethanol or methanol always check the ingredients before putting anything in your gas tank there are a small number of particularly good additives these are noticeably more expensive that the run of the mill ones but work much much better among these are chevron techron redline sl wurth lubrimoly ventil sauber and bg k a bottle of one of these once every six months is highly recommended q what about detergent gasolines a the quality of detergent packages in gasolines varies somewhat bmw has instituted a testing program and gasoline brands which pass this test may advertise that fact stickers indicating passage of the test are now beginning to appear on fuel pumps at gas stations if such gasolines are used then fuel injector cleaners are probably optional beforewarned that while use of bmw approved gasolines will keep a clean engine clean they may not clean a motor with bad valve deposits lubrication questions q what do the numbers and letters in a motor oil designation mean a there are several different items encoded there is a two letter code indicating the type of detergent package that the manufacturer uses in the oil this looks like se sf cd or such the s codes are for gasoline engine applications the c codes are for diesel engine applications the second letter is assigned in sequence as new levels of protection are developed thus sf is considered better than se se is considered better than sd and so forth the more noticeable designation is the oil weight this is either a single number e g weight or a pair of numbers separated by the letter w e g w the latter type is much more commonly used these days and are the only type that most automobile manufacturers specify in operators manuals the first number in the designation w is the apparent viscosity of the oil when it is cold the w stands for winter the second number is the viscosity of the oil when hot there is a trick here the oil doesn t actually get thicker turn from weight to weight as it gets hotter what is actually happening is that when the oil is cold it has the viscosity of a cold weight oil as it gets hotter it doesn t get thin as fast as a w oil would by the time it is up to temperature it has the viscosity of a hot weight oil note that these numbers actually specify ranges of viscosities not all w oils have exactly the same viscosity when cold and not all weight oils have the same viscosity when hot note also that the novel behaviour of multi grade oils is caused by additives and it has been reported that with the sole exception of castrol gtx w oils do not retain their multi grade characteristics well over time w w and w oils work very well though q are quick lube places any good a some do adequate work but there are quite a few incompetent ones out there let the buyer beware watch them while they work make sure that they don t overtorque the oil drain plug and keep your hand on your wallet at all times q are oil additives like slick or tufoil any good a slick and tufoil are ptfe based additives many of these have come onto the market recently they are different from the moly based additives that have been around since the early s ptfe is the chemical name for teflon tm a trademark owned by dupont in general auto manufacturers do not recommend use of these products most usenet responses to questions on these additives are favorable slight increase of mpg after application smoother revving but long term results whether ptfe additives are effective after k miles are debatable some manufacturers such as saab claim that either the product or the engine flush that preceeds application causes deterioration of the oil seals and eventual leakage some bmw owners have reported death of valve seals shortly after the addition of slick to their cars this writer has been cautioned by a slick dealer that slick should not be used in japanese motors as it may clog the oil return passages in the engine otherwise there are no known reports of damage caused by ptfe additives on the other hand there are satified slick customers in the world q do synthetic oils really work a yes but more specifically most auto manufactuers accept synthetics but disagree with the extremely long oil change intervals claimed by oil manufacturers auto manufacturers recommend that you continue to change oil at the intervals recommended in the owners manual for your car even if you decide to try the longer intervals at least change the oil filter at regular intervals as synthetics get just as dirty as conventional oils synthetic gear lubricants for manual transmissions are another matter entirely amsoil redline and agip are very highly regarded and very effective mobil synthetic gear lube gets mixed reviews however q manufacturers are specifying longer and longer oil change intervals how often should i change my oil a it depends on how you drive if your car always or nearly always gets warmed up and you don t drive it very hard and keep the revs down the manufacturer s recommendation is probably fine if however you drive it hard drive it at high revs or alternatively if you only drive it to and from the supermarket so that it doesn t get up to temperature then you may wish to change oil much more often perhaps at mile intervals given that most manufacturers are now specifying mile intervals if you don t drive your car much at all say miles a year then you probably want to change oil every six months anyway if you are storing a car during the winter then change oil before storing it and change oil when you bring it out of storage misc questions q my car has a timing belt i hear that bad things happen when they break what s the story a it depends on the internal design of the motor early ford escorts for example will suffer severe valve damage if the belt breaks but the newer cars will just require a tow and installation of a new belt some honda motors will not be damaged but others will be if no replacement interval is specified for your car then change the belt at least every miles some cars may require more frequent replacement ask your dealer or independent mechanic also ask if there are any related repairs that should take place at the same time for example the same ford escorts that suffer valve damage also have a timing belt driven water pump which has been known to seize destroying the timing belt and which then causes major valve damage as a side effect replacing the timing belt while ignoring the water pump can be a costly mistake q why would anyone be stupid enough to design a motor so that it self destructs when the timing belt breaks a for performance reasons compromising piston design so that the valves and pistons will not collide requires that the compression ratio of the engine be reduced significantly this is why you are more likely to avoid valve damage in economy cars than in performance oriented vehicles q what causes unintended acceleration a the final report of the national highway transportation and safety administration concluded that unintended acceleration could not be caused by any mechanical failure of the vehicle in question and at the same time be consistent with the physical evidence the nhtsa report goes on to conclude that pedal misapplication by the vehicle operator is probably the cause richard welty welty cabot balltown cma com nothing good has ever been reported about the full rotation of a race car about either its pitch or roll axis carroll smith
rec.autos	re warning please read unfortunately i ve got another story to add to this my girlfriend and i were driving through west l a and got pelted by a rock just as we were pulling away from a stoplight the scary thing was that the rock was heavy enough to put a decent sized dent in the door of my riviera which is pretty much solid detriot iron couple of inches higher and it would have gone through the window chris chris barrus chrisb lynx ps uci edu kallista aol com buick riviera boattail peace through superior automotive power sacred cows make the best hamburger abbie hoffman
rec.autos	militech i saw an interesting product in ny auto show and would like to hear your comments militech tm is yet another oil additive but the demonstration of this product really impressive if it didn t cheat the setup of the demo is fairly simple a cone shaped rotor is half submerged in a small oil sink filled with motor oil the rotor is powered by an electronic motor a metal pad is pressed against the rotor using the torque wrench until the rotor stopped by friction the torque that is needed to stop rotor is read from the torque wrench before militech was added the rotor was stopped with about lb ft of torque you pick the brand of oil no difference once militech was added to the oil the rotor could not be stopped even with lb ft of torque here is the good part even after the salesman emptied the oil sink you still could not stopped the rotor with the thin film remained on it they say you need only add oz per quart of oil every k miles a oz bottle is i still have my doubts if this product is really so great why it was so little known the salesman said it is widely used in military i didn t believe it the demo was so impressive that i bought a bottle against my common sense has anyone heard of or actually used this product is it real if you are going to the auto show please visit this stand on the second floor see if can find out if the demo is a hoax or not jason chen
rec.autos	re ford sho engine parts w will not do work on internal engine components of the sho engine this w w good thing too w w at about k miles my cam sensor went south different ford w dealers tried or different fixes none of which worked finally w i took it down the street to the local mechanic this guy reads the w code off the engine computer says bad cam sensor and fixes it in w an hour a friend of mine had some sensors damaged by flood waters ford denys any sensors are registering bad he and his father did the short a circut via paper clip method not sure of the exact technique and read the codes off the service engine light flashes generated from this came up with the damaged sensors went back to ford and told them what was wrong they fixed the car after that what a bunch of bozos the cutting edge bbs cutting hou tx us a pcboard a system houston texas usa running uupcb
rec.autos	rec autos automotive mailing lists archive name rec autos part automotive mailing lists electronic mail that is last updated new lotus exotic cars list subscription info added portland or motorsports list corvair list triumph tr list rpw there are a number of electronic mailing lists on the network devoted to various special automotive topics to the best of my knowledge all the lists appearing here have open membership policies it is my policy not to list closed mailing lists here most mailing lists provide separate addresses for administrative queries and for general mail where separate administrative addresses exist i have listed those below as the general addresses are not appropriate for inquirys and requests audi send requests to quattro request aries east sun com autocross solo send requests to autox request hoosier cs utah edu bmw send requests to bmw request balltown cma com both regular and digest forms available british cars send requests to british cars request hoosier cs utah edu buick grand national regal gnx send requests to gnttype request srvsn monsanto com camaro firebird gm f body send requests to f body request boogie ebay sun com corvair send requests to bryan pegasus mitre org corvettes there are two lists the first is more of a competition oriented list and the second is more general in nature or so i am told competition send requests to vettes request cimage com general send requests to vettes request compaq com datsun fairlady roadsters send requests to datsun roadsters request hoosier cs utah edu dodge stealth mitsubishi gt send requests to stealth req jim uucp wupost wustl edu eclipse talon laser send requests to diginst talon request radius com electric vehicles send requests to info ev request ymir claremont edu exotic cars send requests to exotic cars request sol asl hitachi com fabrication race cars send requests to racefab request pms pms ford com international harvester discussion of scouts pickups etc send requests to ihc request balltown cma com italian cars send requests to italian cars request balltown cma com both regular and digest forms available hondas listserv brownvm brown edu use standard listserv subscription procedure the mail message body to listserv should be sub honda l your real name with no subject line in the header hot rods send requests to hotrod request dixie com land rovers send requests to land rover owner request stratus com lotus send requests to lotus cars request netcom com mazdas send requests to mazda list request ms uky edu miata listserv jhunix hcf jhu edu use standard listserv subscription procedure the mail message body to listserv should be sub miata your real name with no subject line in the header merkurs send requests to merkur request pcad uucp mopar mostly high performance chrysler dodge plymouth products send requests to mopar casbah acns nwu edu mr send requests to mr interest request validgh com mustangs there are two lists the first is for mustangs through the second for mustangs from on nobody cares about the mustang ii so don t ask classic send requests to classic mustangs request hpfctjc fc hp com modern send requests to mustangs request cup hp com offroad x send requests to offroad request ai gtri gatech edu porsches send requests to porschephiles request tta com portland oregon motorsports activities send requests to pdxracer request reed edu rally send requests to rally request stratus com rx send requests to jjn cblpf att com saabs send requests to saab network mhs compuserve com saturn send requests to saturn request oar net school high performance driving schools send requests to school request balltown cma com sentra se r g n send requests to se r request pencom com supras send requests to supras request vicor com toyota send requests to toyota request quack sac ca us triumph tr v tr send requests to jtc ccwf cc utexas edu volvos requests to swedishbricks request me rochester edu wheel to wheel racing forum for race drivers workers crew and wannabes send requests to wheeltowheel request abingdon sun com z cars nissan datsun send requests to z car request dixie com richard welty welty cabot balltown cma com nothing good has ever been reported about the full rotation of a race car about either its pitch or roll axis carroll smith
rec.autos	rec autos the rec autos archive server archive name rec autos part the automotive articles archive server the automotive archive server is in the process of being rehosted and is presently not available richard welty welty cabot balltown cma com nothing good has ever been reported about the full rotation of a race car about either its pitch or roll axis carroll smith
rec.autos	rec autos frequently asked questions archive name rec autos part this article is one of a pair of articles containing commonly asked automotive questions the other article contains questions of general consumer interest and is broken out to facilitate crossposting to misc consumers rpw last change february ct now permits radar detector usage new tire traction q a rpw commonly asked questions radar questions q where are radar detectors illegal a in the us currently virgina and the district of columbia prohibit all usage of radar detectors new york prohibits their use in large trucks in canada they are illegal in manitoba ontario quebec newfoundland and pei prince edward island they are apparently are illegal through most if not all of europe legislation which would make them illegal is pending in many other jurisdictions chances of such legislation passing varies a great deal q where are radar detector detectors used do they really work a usage is spreading rapidly initially they were used only in canada but now they are appearing in new york and virginia it is unsafe to assume that they are not in use in connecticut and d c they work by detecting a certain frequency radiated by many currently available super het radar detectors some brands of detector radiate more strongly than others and are thus more likely to be spotted new radar detectors are becoming available which may not be detected by the current generation of detector detectors note that a detector may only be spotted by one of these devices if it is turned on q what is vascar is it some kind of radar a vascar is nothing more than a fancy stopwatch and time speed distance computer it depends on the operator pressing buttons as the target vehicle passes landmarks no radar signals are emitted by a vascar system q what is ka band radar where is it used should a radar detector be able to handle it a ka band has recently been made available by the fcc for use in the us in so called photo radar installations in these installations a low powered beam is aimed across the road at a degree angle to the direction of traffic and a picture is taken of vehicles which the radar unit determines to have been in violation of the speed limit tickets are mailed to the owner of the vehicle because of the low power and the degree angle many people believe that a radar detector cannot give reasonable warning of a ka band radar unit although some manufacturers of radar detectors have added such capability anyway the number of locales where photo radar is in use is limited and some question the legality of such units best advice learn what photo radar units look like and keep track of where they are used or else don t speed q do radar jammers work are they legal a quick answer no and not in the usa detailed answer cheap radar jammers do not work well at all jammers that work are expensive and usually the property of the military jammers are a major violation of the regulations of the federal communications commission of the usa driving technique and vehicle dynamics questions q what are understeer and oversteer a understeer and oversteer are terms describing the behaviour of a car while cornering near the limit limit of adhesion that is most drivers do not normally drive hard enough for these terms to be descriptive of the situations they encounter simply put they tell whether the car wants to go straight in a corner steer less or understeer or it wants to turn more in a corner oversteer understeer is commonly designed into most production cars so that untrained drivers inadvertantly traveling too fast won t get into trouble understeer may also be induced by using too much throttle in a corner oversteer is designed into some more performance oriented cars it may be induced by lifting on the throttle trailing throttle oversteer or tto in extreme cases lifting on the throttle may induce so much oversteer that the car reacts by fishtailing or spinning some technical details in a corner at speed the tires on the car will develop what are called slip angles the slip angle is the angular difference between the direction that the car is traveling and the direction that the steering wheel is directing the car to travel in understeer the front wheels have a greater slip angle than the rear wheels in oversteer the rear wheels have a greater slip angle than the front wheels q what is a rev matched downshift a when downshifting the engine must be rotating faster in the lower gear than it was in the higher gear however during a downshift normally you declutch and lift your foot from the throttle so the revs drop rather than increase in rev matched downshift you blip the throttle before re engaging the clutch so that the engine will already be up to the new speed this results in a much smoother and faster downshift q what does heel and toe mean a heel and toe is a technique used to do a rev matched downshift while braking this is normally challenging because you need the right foot for both the brake and throttle it is called heel and toe because you use one end of the foot on the brake and the other on the throttle to match revs for the downshift in many modern cars this is a misnomer often you must use the ball of the foot on the brake and the right side on the throttle note that some race car drivers will skip the clutch and just use the left foot on the brake and the right foot on the throttle accomplishing the same thing q what is double clutch downshifting a while your right foot is doing the above your left foot can do one of three things nothing declutch once or declutch twice the reason for declutching twice is to match the speeds of the two shafts in the transmission to the speed of the engine this is usually coupled with rev matching so that while the engine is in neutral and the clutch engaged the throttle is blipped and both shafts of the transmission speed up the procedure is as follows declutch move gearshift lever to neutral engage clutch match revs declutch move gearshift lever to next lower gear engage clutch this sounds like a lot of work but with practice it becomes natural the problem that double clutching solves is normally the function of the synchronizers within the gearbox in transmissions without synchros or with very worn synchros double clutching makes it much easier to shift basically if you double clutch well you are not using the synchros at all this is generally unnecessary on street cars with synchros in good condition q what do the numbers for acceleration from mile skidpad and slalom times in the auto magazines really mean may they be compared a in short not as much as the magazines want you to believe and almost never in more detail the acceleration numbers mph and mile times in the us may be vaguely compared as long as they all come from the same source testing procedures vary so much from magazine to magazine that comparing a road track number to a car driver number is quite pointless keep in mind too that the same variation applies from driver to driver on the street the driver is a major often the major part of the equation skidpads vary and even if they didn t skidpad figures are really only tests of the stickiness of the stock tires they change radically when tire compounds change do not make any assumptions about the comparative handling of say two sports sedans based on skidpad numbers this is not to suggest that skidpads are without value however skidpads are an excellent educational tool at driving schools they are simply of limited value in the comparison of anything except tires slalom times are slightly more useful they test some small parts of the automobile s transient response however they are also heavily influenced by the stock rubber on the car and they do not test many corners of the car s envelope they do not tell you all you need to know before making a buying decision for example they don t tell you what the rear end of the car will do on a road which suddenly goes off camber when a car has an adjustable suspension these tests are usually done in the sport setting which may be quite unsuitable for daily driving the list of caveats could go on for page after page q my buddy claims that wide tires don t make any difference according to his freshman physics textbook and that you can t ever accelerate or corner at more than g does he know what he s talking about a in short he hasn t got a clue in more detail the equations for friction used in freshman physics textbooks presume that the surfaces are smooth dry and non deformable none of which properly apply to tire traction except in the case of a stone cold tire on dry pavement which is far below its proper operating temperature pavement is never smooth it is always irregular to a greater or lesser extent tires which are not really dry and solid as rubber is a substance which in its natural form is liquid and which has only been coerced into a semblance of solidity by chemical magic deform to match the surface of the pavement which a vehicle is traveling over in a tire at operating temperature grip is actually generated by shear stresses inside the deformed rubber and not by anything even remotely resembling friction in the freshman physics sense of the term the colder a tire is relative to its operating temperature the closer its behaviour will be to the traditional concept of friction if much hotter than the its proper operating temperature the more likely the possibility of some part of the tire actually reverting to liquid which is mostly like to happen deep in the tread causing characteristic blisters and chunking this latter though is almost completely unlikely to happen in normal street driving so unless you re a competition driver or do a lot of high speed track driving don t worry about it because tire traction is completely out of the domain of simple friction it does not obey the freshman physics equation at all thus dragsters accelerate at more than g and race cars corner and brake at more than g because simple friction does not apply it is actually possible for different sized contact patches to generate differing amounts of grip an actual analysis of tire behavior would require techniques such as finite element analysis due to the complexity of the mechanism misc questions q what does name or acronym stand for a here is a list of some of the names which are commonly asked about be careful in soliciting the meanings of other names as misinformation abounds on the net in particular never ask in rec humor if you want a useful result saab svenska aeroplan a b or the swedish airplane corporation alfa societa anonima lombarda fabbrica automobili or the lombardy automobile manufacturing company fiat fabbrica italiana di automobili torino or the italian automobile manufacturers of turin bmw bayerische motoren werke or bavarian motor works mg morris garage q does vw own porsche a no porsche is a publicly held company controlled by the porsche and piech families porsche has extensive business dealings with vw audi which causes some confusion since currently porsche is in some financial difficulty there is a possibility that mercedes or vw may be interested in purchasing the company in the near future but this is only speculation at this time richard welty welty cabot balltown cma com nothing good has ever been reported about the full rotation of a race car about either its pitch or roll axis carroll smith
rec.autos	rec autos automotive mailing lists how to set up your own archive name rec autos part new article as of february rpw many people want to set up mailing lists for their favorite automotive topics rather fewer know how to do it this article will provide the essential information for doing so on standard unix systems a shell script and examples of alias file setups are included which presently run on a sparc here at balltown cma com for a number of mailing lists note that if you do set up an automotive mailing list please let me know of the request address so that i can list it in the montly rec autos posting also inform the keeper of the usenet list of lists check news answers for this monthly posting first of all to get anywhere you need to either be a sysadmin or have some measure of assistance from your sysadmin it is also important that you have reasonably good network connectivity if it seems like you get everything several days after anyone else or that you have trouble getting email through then your network connectivity is probably not good enough listserv there is a handy automated mailing list package named listserv which is available from several ftp servers on the network details of the installation and operation of listserv are beyond the scope of this article but anyone who is considering running a large mailing list should probably look at listserv carefully the alias file on a typical unix system there is a file named usr lib aliases on whichever file server is your mail host it contains lines such as foo bar baz bletch which means that any email sent the name foo on that host is redistributed to users bar baz and bletch thus the simplest possible email list is my favorite car member member member my address my favorite car request my address this has a couple of problems the most noticeable one being that you have to be superuser to edit the alias file however you can do the following with the connivance of your sysadmin my favorite car include home mydir misc autos my favorite car list my favorite car request my address where the file specified is a list of comma and newline separated addresses this file can be in the list admin s home directory owned by the list admin bounced mail this still has a problem bounced mail usually gets distributed to all the members of the list which is generally considered somewhat irritating therefore the way that the driving school mailing list is set up is instructive thanks to harpal chohan of the bmw list for this setup by the way i m not sure where he got it from school request welty school rebroadcast include home newwelty misc autos school list school usr local adm bin explscript school owner school school request owner school out school request here s what is going on here the owner and request addresses are intended as traps for bounced mail coming from the network the request address also serves as the point of contact for administrative duties school is what people send mail to instead of pointing at addresses it points at a shell script which rewrites headers before resending the email school broadcast of which nobody except me knows the name the name has been changed here to protect my own sanity points at the actual list members the shell script i use is as follows bin sh cd tmp sed e reply to d e sender d e from d echo reply to balltown cma com echo errors to request balltown cma com echo sender request balltown cma com cat usr lib sendmail om f request balltown cma com f the mailing list rebroadcast exit note that this script does not know the name of the list the name is passed in from outside so that the script may be used for multiple lists i run several out of this site the script excises reply to sender and from lines from the incoming message substitutes for sender and reply to and adds errors to of all email bounce messages end up being sent to the request or owner addresses if this header rewrite is done for digested lists there is some digestification software around hopefully i ll be able to provide more information in a future version of this posting richard welty welty balltown cma com richard welty welty cabot balltown cma com nothing good has ever been reported about the full rotation of a race car about either its pitch or roll axis carroll smith
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time in article qa wichitaks ncr com jhart qa wichitaks ncr com jim hart writes in article mar uncavx unca edu bwillard uncavx unca edu writes my top list of dumbest automotive concepts ever dodge colt vista tachometer only avail with automatic trans back up lights on corvette they re on the sides of the car sure would be interested to know what year s this was i don t seem to recall any car with back up lights on the sides much less any corvette i suppose i could be mis interpreting what you are trying to say here just a quick comment backup lights mounted on the side would actually be extremely useful for people backing out of parking stalls regards charles within the span of the last few weeks i have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person
rec.autos	re warning please read this is a two sided problem unfortunately our culture has been deteriorating over time the breeding of these low life s is getting worse our justice system is at best extremely weak to handle these problems that is why low abiding citizens should have the power to protect themselves and their property using deadly force if necessary anywhere a threat is imminent my camaro my pride and joy got stolen right out of my driveway a few years back the persons that did that were eventually caught lucky for me but not before having trashed the car on another occasion on my way from texas to florida i had stopped in a small motel for the night in a small town somewhere in florida about youths were disturbing my car setting off the alarm and challenging me to come out when i and another tenant walked out with a magnum and a automatic respectively they vanished needless to say i immediately packed up and left watch out for car jacking and staged accidents they can be deadly steve heracleous
rec.autos	re warning please read ejv j virginia edu erik velapoldi writes what the hell is happening to this great country of ours i can see boyhood pranks of peeing off of bridges and such but pound rocks has our society really stooped this low you make it sound like this behavior is new it isn t a lot of pedestrian bridges have fencing that curls up over the sidewalk to make this kind of think a lot harder to do i don t understand the mentality myself but then again i couldn t figure out move i m glad they bombed em or the waco wackos either newsgroup list trimmed significantly jim frost jimf centerline com
rec.autos	re changing oil by self in article apr colorado edu drew kinglear cs colorado edu drew eckhardt writes most cars have drain petcocks in the radiators and i ve never seen nor heard of a vandal opening one i imagine that there would be an even lower risk with an oil plug because you have to crawl furthur under the car to open it car vandals are usually real traditional in their methods and do things that don t get them dirty like keying your car dumping sand sugar or mothballs in the gas tank tping it etc usually go enough places and you ll see stuff happen you didn t think did steve
rec.autos	re mazda rx parts jc whitney their number is they are based in chicago il in case you need to call dir assistance their prices are more down to earth than any other source for car innards outers they will send you a free catalog neeraj
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes my top list of dumbest automotive concepts ever back up lights on corvette they re on the sides of the car sure would be interested to know what year s this was i don t seem to recall any car with back up lights on the sides much less any corvette i suppose i could be mis interpreting what you are trying to say here just a quick comment backup lights mounted on the side would actually be extremely useful for people backing out of parking stalls while i can t think of any corvettes with side mounted backup lights i know that saab started using them about years ago my saab didn t have them but a friend s saab certainly did in addition to the confentional tail light mounted backup lights they had another set integrated into the front turn signal assembly for those of you who don t remember saabs of that vintage had an enormous multicoloured plastic growth about the size of a national geographic magazine sticking out of the front fender which incorporated amber parking lights amber side marker lights reflectors white cornering lamps like american luxury cars aimed towards the side of the road when you have your turn indicators on and white backup lights aimed towards the back of the car when you have selected reverse gear the glossy brochure showed how these front mounted backup lights were useful for illuminating hazards pot holes kid s toys etc that would be run over by the front of the car if you had the wheels turned while backing up mart l molle computer systems research institute university of toronto toronto canada m s a
rec.autos	re aftermarket a c units in article qcaueinnmt axon cs unc edu andrew brandt writes i looked into getting a c installed on my honda crx si the unit is plus shipping installation is like hours on top of that this is a hunk of change does anyone know any place that does aftermarket a c installation not with a honda a c unit but some third party unit i cannot seem to find anyone who can put a third party a c unit in a honda i am in no carolina so i would prefer some place nearby but any references would be handy thx andy brandt cs unc edu les bartel s comments sorry i can t help you with your question but i do have a comment to make concerning aftermarket a c units i have a frost king or frost temp forget which aftermarket unit on my cavalier and am quite unhappy with it the fan is noisy and doesn t put out much air i will never have an aftermarket a c installed in any of my vehicles again i just can t trust the quality and performance after this experience les les bartel i m going to live forever let me add my in i had a a c installed by the ford garage and it did not work as well as the a c that was installed by the factory in pickups identical to mine i have talked to other people that have had the same result don t know if this is just a probable with ford or what ernie smith
rec.autos	re aftermarket a c units in article qcaueinnmt axon cs unc edu andrew brandt writes i looked into getting a c installed on my honda crx si the unit is plus shipping installation is like hours on top of that this is a hunk of change does anyone know any place that does aftermarket a c installation not with a honda a c unit but some third party unit i cannot seem to find anyone who can put a third party a c unit in a honda i am in no carolina so i would prefer some place nearby but any references would be handy thx andy brandt cs unc edu les bartel s comments sorry i can t help you with your question but i do have a comment to make concerning aftermarket a c units i have a frost king or frost temp forget which aftermarket unit on my cavalier and am quite unhappy with it the fan is noisy and doesn t put out much air i will never have an aftermarket a c installed in any of my vehicles again i just can t trust the quality and performance after this experience les les bartel i m going to live forever let me add my in i had a a c installed by the ford garage and it did not work as well as the a c that was installed by the factory in pickups identical to mine i have talked to other people that have had the same result don t know if this is just a problem with ford or what ernie smith
rec.autos	jeep laredo experiences i have been looking at buying a jeep laredo and was wondering if anyone had any bad or good experiences with this model is it all that much different than the other yjs it looks feels and sounds like a nice vehicle even thought the price is rather steep for an k canadian don bnr ca
rec.autos	re curious about the porsche i drove ak yfn ysu edu albion h bowers writes in a previous article wade nb rockwell com wade guthrie says takaharu mail sas upenn edu taka mizutani writes in article apr progress com damelio progress com stephen d amelio wrote i wrote this is consistent with the pre the engine before that was a litre or less depending on how early you go and got its power at high revs starting slowly at about k and jumping up at around k with a narrow band the was a litre and had a lot of smog equipment if you got much power at all it d be better distributed through the rev range bzzzt wrong answer it really depends on whether you are talking model year or date of manufacture for instance mine was a but was manufactured in august of prior to all s were o liter for the and model years they were liter for the and model years they were liter except for the carerra rs which was a liter the and later years were easily identified by the new mph bumpers most models in the year were lietsr except the carerra rsr which was a liter us carerras from were liter models in they went to liter and there was only a single model the sc think of it as a cross between the s and the carerra models note all the above are based on model year not date of manufacture i stand corrected this is all from memory mind you as for the rev happy behavior the earlier cars are even more prone to this the liter cars used low compression engines and suffered a bit in this regard the early liter and liter engines also got a good dose of smog gear as well the and liter engines were far and away the quickest revvers of the lot yeah that s what i was trying to say no really wade guthrie trying to program on ms dos is like trying wade nb rockwell com to shave with a chain saw me be not speaking for the rock
rec.autos	re warning please read in article apr virginia edu ejv j virginia edu erik velapoldi writes this happened about a year ago on the washington dc beltway snot nosed drunken kids decided it would be really cool to throw huge rocks down on cars from an overpass four or five cars were hit there were several serious injuries and sadly a small girl sitting in the front seat of one of them was struck in the head by one of the larger rocks i don t recall if she made it but i think she was comatose for a month or so and doctors weren t holding out hope that she d live what the hell is happening to this great country of ours i can see boyhood pranks of peeing off of bridges and such but pound rocks has our society really stooped this low erik velapold society as we have known it it coming apart at the seams the basic reason is that human life has been devalued to the point were killing someone is no big deal kid s see hundreds on murderous acts on tv we can abort children on demand and kill the sick and old at will so why be surprised when some kids drop lbs rocks and kill people they don t care because the message they hear is life is cheap at
rec.autos	re braindead drivers who don t look ahead hhm cbnewsd cb att com herschel h mayo writes so i block the would be passers not only for my own good but theirs as well even though they are often too stupid to realize it as a rule of philosophy i don t feel particularly sorry when somebody gets offed by his own stupidity but it does worry me when some idiot is in a position to cash in my chips too h h mayo zdem a hgo hou amoco com donna martz writes well aren t we just mr altruism himself just what the world needs another frustrated self appointed traffic cop hhm cbnewsd cb att com herschel h mayo writes well if you want to stick the nose of your car up the ass of a foot semi i suppose it s your neck however i m not going to let you kill me in the bargain if you get frustrated by somebody delaying your inevitable death due to less that wise driving practices then tough well i never wrote that i would act as you described i stated that i would not block a would be passer i would not block a would be passer for their own good or for any reason other than i was prevented from doing so due to the traffic circumstance i fail to see how deterring a passer under these circumstance would in any way decrease your chances of being involved in an accident fatal or otherwise in fact i could imagine how blocking a would be passer would actually increase your chances of being offed or involved in an accident especially if this passer is riding your bumper intentionally blocking a person riding your bumper is certainly not a wise driving practice it only causes the jam to become more congested i don t mess with trucks and i actually watch the road ahead and the road behind if i perceive that i am rapidly closing on a pack of vehicles i try to avoid getting caught up in situation such as you decribe usually either traffic is just building and i have to deal with this fact of life or i wait to a slow passer to complete their pass and make way for the pack to clear if someone decides then to pull up on my bumper i signal my intention to move to the right and do so at the first opportunity hope they will open the jam i feel this is not only courteous driving but alot safer than the actions you advocate there are actually many courteous drivers on the road who do not intentionally impede others if someone in front of me seems to be oblivious to the fact that they are blocking traffic i use my blinker or flash my lights or if all else fails will briefly speed up slow down so they might get the message that i am a faster vehicle trying to pass i feel it is never safe to ride anyone s bumper if someone is intentionally blocking traffic because they feel that it is civil duty or philosophic duty or for some unfathomable reason i feel they deserve at the very least derision sorry this is soooooooo long
rec.autos	bmw s new plant in greer sc is anyone reading this message involved with the new bmw plant does bmw corporate even have a net connection desperately seeking info jeff hagen hagenjd ac wfu edu
rec.autos	re warning please read in article qk t dg armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes ejv j virginia edu erik velapoldi writes what the hell is happening to this great country of ours i can see boyhood pranks of peeing off of bridges and such but pound rocks has our society really stooped this low you make it sound like this behavior is new it isn t a lot of pedestrian bridges have fencing that curls up over the sidewalk to make this kind of think a lot harder to do i don t understand the mentality myself but then again i couldn t figure out move i m glad they bombed em or the waco wackos either i know that this isn t the group for it but since you brought it up does anyone have any idea why they haven t bombed the waco cult just curious newsgroup list trimmed significantly jim frost jimf centerline com larry keys csmes ncsl nist gov oo v fahrvergnugen forever the fact that i need to explain it to you indicates that you probably wouldn t understand anyway
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes in article qa wichitaks ncr com jhart qa wichitaks ncr com jim hart writes in article mar uncavx unca edu bwillard uncavx unca edu writes my top list of dumbest automotive concepts ever dodge colt vista tachometer only avail with automatic trans back up lights on corvette they re on the sides of the car sure would be interested to know what year s this was i don t seem to recall any car with back up lights on the sides much less any corvette i suppose i could be mis interpreting what you are trying to say here just a quick comment backup lights mounted on the side would actually be extremely useful for people backing out of parking stalls regards charles within the span of the last few weeks i have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person wasn t the original intent of the reverse lights for the driver so he could see where he was backing up although reverse lights on the sides are useful for telling whether cars are backing up out perpendicular to the path of the car i don t think warnings were their original intents since they are colored white chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu neil peart c quick to judge quick to anger slow to understand ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand
rec.autos	re lois chevrolet a little bit off of the subject but here goes yes he is one in the same i e chevrolet motor div also his brother gaston raced at indy and was the winner in i have also seen the name arthur chevrolet in the early teens and on i assume he is related keith nuetzman nuet ke pts mot com motorola inc paging and wireless data group boynton beach fl see ya at indy and yes
rec.autos	re thinking about buying intrepid good or bad idea i bought an intrepid about two months ago and am very happy with it lots of room inside and even with the smaller engine it has enough power for me the only problem i found was a small selection on the dealer s lots they are hot sellers around here
rec.autos	re changing oil by self ah yes the big chunks down in the sump the solution is simple sort of like the advice my aunt always gave never scratch your ear with anything except your elbow if you have pieces of ring con rods valve heads or stems just reach into the sump through the hole in the block that was associated with the creation of those large bits and pieces anything you can t remove with one hand through the hole in the block may safely be left in place
rec.autos	waxing a new car i have just taken delivery on a new gm car firebird with a clearcoat finish i assume that it is probably urethane since the industry has moved in that direction in paints in years past it used to be recommended that owners wait up to days before you wax a car for the paint to cure the dealer shop manager said this also but i m not sure that he wasn t just basing it on past tradition does anyone know if this is still a recommended practice or is it better to go ahead and wax right away non abrasive new car wax with the newer finishes terry quinn germantown hills il tquinn heartland bradley edu from compuserve internet tquinn heartland bradley edu
rec.autos	tercel sunroof leaks arrggh is there a simple way tooput these sunroofs out of their misery do leaks tend to be from old gaskets or from inadequate mechanical seals or all of the above is there any way to halt the rain thanks hk henry bruno kon office with machine home with machine
rec.autos	re plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences i don t know if some lemons are out there but from personal experience my brother s has been trouble free not one single repair only regular maintainance the only work he had done on it was a result of his stupidity he stopped suddenly in the middle of a left turn on a busy intersection and was rear ended he has a plymouth sundance i would recomend it but i would also like to say that if you can wait about six months chryco is coming out with a new car called the neon that is built in the same way as the lh s where good luck with your desiscion
rec.autos	clear coat woes is clear coat really worth it yes on the showroom floor the cars have this deep lustrous shine that just can t be found on paint jobs that aren t clear coated on the other hand it seems that every clear coated car that i ve seen on the road in a parking lot etc has fine scratches throughout the paint job as does alas my laser several weeks ago i had my car professionally polished and waxed when i picked it up it had that same showroom shine that i remember from a year ago when i bought it several days ago i took my car to the dealership for some work as an added bonus they washed my car unfortunately whoever washed it either didn t get the roof which is black the rest of the car is red completely clean before he dried it or he used a dirty towel now my showroom shine is a haze of fine scratches that aren t really visible until the light hits the roof at a particular angle i am to put it mildy somewhat peeved about this do i have any chance of getting the dealership to do something about this my guess is no is there any product on the market that provides a solution to this problem or am i faced with the prospect of having the car professionally polished again to hide the scratches information commiseration and sympathy all greatly appreciated scott the dealership will never wash my car again borders sborders nyx cs du edu borders scott tandem com
rec.autos	re chryslers compact lh sedans rmt r faraday clas virginia edu roy matthew thigpen writes aas po cwru edu writes in a previous article v mcqs ubvmsd cc buffalo edu adam m gandler says i heard chrysler is planning to design or is in the process of designing a compact sedan line based on the lh platform if these were as thought out as the full sized sedans and priced competitively i see no reason why they could not give the imports and even the saturns a serious challenge oh goody we now get to see saturns sold through cryco dealers fab why is it this a hole insist on remarks like this i really am growing tired of this s drew do you have a kill file for your newsreader i put the name spencer in my kill file and that gives me about less articles per day that i have to sift through
rec.autos	i m getting a car i need opinions i have as my budget i m looking for a sports or gt car what do you think would be the best buy i m looking for specific models thanks danny hey you programmers out there danny phornprapha please consider this ip lehigh edu bugs are another endangered earth lucc student konsultant species needing your protection work
rec.autos	re rfi art of clutchless shifting schludermann sscvx ssc gov writes i m wondering if anybody else out there is a clutchless shifter i ve been doing it my self over miles on my current toyota truck i ve got over k i ve heard people talk about how doing this can damage a transmission my experiences suggest otherwise what techniques do you use yeah i don t use the clutch all the time either i ve done it with fords bmw datsun and chevy and it works fine i can t think of any reason that it would damage the tranny essentially you are just doing what the synchros do anyhow match the engine speed with the tranny speed and slip it into gear on some old pieces of junk i drove the transmission was so worn that pumping the clutch was the only way to shift except clutchless to date i ve driven rabbits datsuns comets fords a chevy some where harder than others to shift but generally the higher the milage the smoother quicker easier they where to shift my technique is to ease back off the throttle and at the same time gently wrist back on the shift lever if for some reason i miss the shift window i lightly press the accelerator try agian i ve found that clutchless shifting is eaiser quicker at high rpms i also skip gears some times using sounds about right i usually slip it out during throttle down and then blip the throttle and wait until it feels like things are right usually about a second and then slip it into gear krispy jon you obviously don t know who you re dealing with gross jong halcyon com
rec.autos	re acura integra speed i have a acura integra speed with miles on it it is positively the worst car i have ever owned i had an prelude that had k miles on it when i sold it and it was still going strong this is with religious attention to maintenance such as oil changes etc both cars were driven in exactly the same manner it has gone through two clutches which are underrated sets of tires really eats tires in the front even with careful align all struts started leaking about k miles windshield wiper motor burned up service note on this one seek stop working on radio about k miles two timing belts constant error signals from computer and finally a rod bearing went out on the no piston seriously damaging the crankshaft contaminating the engine etc when the overhaul was done last week it required new crankshaft one new cam shaft has two because the camshaft shattered when they tried to mill it the camshaft took weeks to get because it is on national back order everything on the engine is unique to the year they went to a new design in parts are very expensive no way would i ever buy another acura it is highly overrated
rec.autos	re most bang for k in article apr ns cc lehigh edu rwf ns cc lehigh edu r obert william fusi writes in article uupcb cutting hou tx us david bonds cutting hou tx us d a vid bonds writes in rec autos cpkjp vm cc latech edu kevin parker writes i d like to get some feedback on a car with most bang for the buck in the to price range i m looking for a car with enough civility to b e driven every day or even on long trips but when i hit the gas i want to fe e l take a look at a taurus sho they can be found for k and are the ultimate in door sports cars performance similar to a mustang but quite civil and comfortable try to get a late model for the better shifter the cutting edge bbs cutting hou tx us a pcboard a system houston texas usa running uupcb well you could always go with a mustang lx with a pleasant v but the diamond star cars talon eclipse laser put out hp in the turbo models and hp in the awd turbo models these cars also have handling to match the muscle and are civil in regular driving conditions rather than having a harsh stiff ride the awd turbo is clearly the better choice of the two because of all that torque steer on the front drive model but you may have to go with a leftover or slightly used model for that price range tough decision rob fusi rwf lehigh edu car and driver did a test with the same basic idea and chose the ford probe gt sp of course
rec.autos	re too fast in article shaman wv tek com andrew frip wv tek com andrew klossner wr ites can i ask have any of you been at the speed of it s a rush so is cocaine what s your point andrew klossner andrew frip wv tek com yeah and the cop couldn t catch me
rec.autos	re too fast in article shaman wv tek com andrew frip wv tek com andrew klossner wr ites can i ask have any of you been at the speed of it s a rush so is cocaine what s your point andrew klossner andrew frip wv tek com don t know about the cocaine but
rec.autos	re new alarm proposal in article apr slcs slb com dcd se houston geoquest slb co m dan day writes in article qeee o s armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost w rites an audible alarm is just an annoyance to either a professional or amateur nobody listens to audible alarms anymore the thieves know this is why i think there ought to be a heavy fine on false alarms i m really honked off about the fact that due to all the cars with cruddy alarms crying wolf no one will pay any attention to my car if its alarm ever goes off for real depends on your area in the city nobody thinks about it but at a mall or something near the suburbs people do at least glance over remember an alarm is only a deterent not a prevention if a thief sees two cars he likes one has an alarm and the other doesn t he s obviously going to skip the alarmed car and avoid the hassle there is a way around every alarm but at least you ve got something on your side rob fusi rwf lehigh edu
rec.autos	re i m getting a car i need opinions good luck
rec.autos	curious about you please satisfy my curiosity i m interested in finding out who is using the e mail system please do not flood me with mail after april st thanks maria alice ruth mao psuvm bitnet or psuvm psu edu are you male or female how long have you been using the e mail system how do you have access at work at school etc who taught you how to use the system is that person male or female have you helped anyone to learn the system was that person s male or female which net did you find my questions on which other nets are you interested in how often do you read post to the system
rec.autos	toyota land cruiser worth it in response to a post about suv s i got several unsolicited recommendations to check out the land cruiser despite its astronomical price the toyota dealer told me it s a cult car if a car is good enough to create a passionate and loyal following there must be something really extraordinary about it so all you land crusher cultists here is your chance to convert me jonathan edwards edwards intranet com intranet inc
rec.autos	nx vs sentra se r i m plannig to trade my sentra se r in with a nx my car has miles on it and is a model the nx the dealer is selling is a model with miles on it it has a t bar roof a c and an airbag which my sentra does not have they are asking for is that a fair deal the only thing i noticed about the nx is that the engine did not seem to have as much torque as my sentra which has the same identical engine i presume that the last lady owner did not really push the engine to it s limits occassionaly while i did that on mine thuis the nx s engine is a little tight so if i buy the nx and excercise it well should that slight power problem go away any advice on this will be much appreciated thanks please reply via e mail if possible a motion picture major at the brooks institute of photography ca santa barbara and a foreign student from kuala lumpur malaysia the mind is the forerunner of all states
rec.autos	re warning please read in article apr convex com tobias convex com allen tobias writes in article apr virginia edu ejv j virginia edu erik velapoldi writes this happened about a year ago on the washington dc beltway snot nosed drunken kids decided it would be really cool to throw huge rocks down on cars from an overpass four or five cars were hit there were several serious injuries and sadly a small girl sitting in the front seat of one of them was struck in the head by one of the larger rocks i don t recall if she made it but i think she was comatose for a month or so and doctors weren t holding out hope that she d live what the hell is happening to this great country of ours i can see boyhood pranks of peeing off of bridges and such but pound rocks has our society really stooped this low yes nobody is watching them if they get caught there is no punishment at all in the old days such behaviour would be rewarded with a whipping with a good sized belt and then taken into some hospital to see first hand what kind of damage such accidents cause of course this doesn t happen any more that whipping would probably save the kid s life by teaching him some respect for others a person with that little respect would inevitably wind up dead early anyway the problem is creeping gradualism if you put a frog into hot water he just jumps out but if you put him into cold water and then ever so gradually heat it the frog will cook this is what the entertainment industry and lack of religious moral and educational standards in our modern north american society have done to us over the years now that we are about to be cooked we may have woken up too late erik velapold society as we have known it it coming apart at the seams the basic reason is that human life has been devalued to the point were killing someone is no big deal kid s see hundreds on murderous acts on tv we can abort children on demand and kill the sick and old at will so why be surprised when some kids drop lbs rocks and kill people they don t care because the message they hear is life is cheap and the education system and the religious leaders aren t doing much about it either with both parents working in this society where is the stabilizing influence at home latchkey children are everywhere and these latchkey kids can watch whatever rotten videos and listen to whatever violent hate promoting music and videos they like because no one is home to stop it this day and age when there is about times more things to learn than when i went to school our answer to this increased knowledge is shorter school hours and more leisure time i say keep the kids in school longer feed them good food and teach them something and when they get home have a parent there to interact and monitor them there is a very old and now forgotten proverb a child left on his own will bring a parent to grief daycare systems are not the answer this is just shifting the parents own responsibilities off on someone else to whom it s not a life long committment but rather just a job at followups should go to alt parents teens fred w bach operations group internet music erich triumf ca triumf tri university meson facility voice loc wesbrook mall ubc campus fax university of british columbia vancouver b c canada v t a these are my opinions which should only make you read think and question they do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers
rec.autos	re warning please read in article neilson apr seoul mpr ca neilson seoul mpr ca robert neilson writes sorry for the auto content but that is why low abiding citizens should have the power to protect themselves and their property using deadly force if necessary anywhere a threat is imminent steve heracleous you do have the power steve you can do it why don t you why don t you go shoot some kids who are tossing rocks onto cars make sure you do a good job though don t miss cause like they have big rocks and take it from me those kids are mean this last comment was obviously a bit cynical but a true statement of the attitude of some drivers there s your autos content i would say what law abiding not low abiding as above talk about freudian slips citizens have the right and responsibility to do is try to prevent this type of behaviour in children a doctor may have to use deadly force against a part of a body like amputating it when an infection disease has gone too far but his real desire would have been to prevent the disease in the first place or at least nip it in the bud followups should go to alt parents teens fred w bach operations group internet music erich triumf ca triumf tri university meson facility voice loc wesbrook mall ubc campus fax university of british columbia vancouver b c canada v t a these are my opinions which should only make you read think and question they do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers
rec.autos	re warning please read in article c joit e bcstec ca boeing com neil bcstec ca boeing com neil williams writes as long as we re on the subject several years ago myself and two others were riding in the front of a toyota pickup heading south on interstate north of seattle wa someone threw a rock of an overpass and hit our windshield not by accident i m sure it was impossible to get up to the overpass quickly to see who did it we figured it was kids reported it and left a couple of years ago it happend again and killed a guy at my company he was in his mid fourties and left behind a wife and children turned out there was a reformatory for juviniles a few blocks away they caught the year old that did it they put a cover over the overpass what else could they do i don t think i ll over forget this story neil williams boeing computer services bellevue wa neil what did they do to the year old who they caught what did the man s insurance company do this could be significant and in any case very interesting followups to alt parents teens fred w bach operations group internet music erich triumf ca triumf tri university meson facility voice loc wesbrook mall ubc campus fax university of british columbia vancouver b c canada v t a these are my opinions which should only make you read think and question they do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers
rec.autos	re manual shift bigots in article c o nh su news cso uiuc edu mchaffee dcl nxt michael t chaffee writes w r t performance converter lockup is purely irrelevant the lockup only occurs at light throttle settings and serves only to improve mpg mind you a converter clutch does a lovely job of improving mpg but the additional mechanical advantage of the converter gives you more acceleration vs locked converter clutch than its inherent losses take away the transmission in my car contradicts both your assertions i get much stronger acceleration if i let the convertor lockup which i can induce by briefly lifting off then quickly but not too quickly to trigger a kickdown applying throttle above rpms the convertor will never unlock it would kickdown first who says there s no skill involved in driving an automatic i think of it as the throttle and shifter combined into a single pedal with my car i can pretty much influence its shifting patterns with my right foot while having both hands to steer eliot
rec.autos	bimmer vs beamer although not in direct response to the referenced article just to set the record straight beamers are bmw motorcycles bmw cars are bimmers please let s get our terms straight actually some purists would argue that the only true bimmer is a round tail light or mark
rec.autos	re warning please read could we plase cease this discussion i fail to see why people feel the need to expound upon this issue for days and days on end these areas are not meant for this type of discussion if you feel the need to do such things please take your thought elsewhere thanks i want only two things from this world a plymouth and a small opec nation with which to fuel it this would be a good and just thing car smashers can just go home and sulk jacques brouillette manufacturing engineering
rec.autos	insurance rates on performance cars summary i recently posted an article asking what kind of rates single male drivers under yrs old were paying on performance cars here s a summary of the replies i received i m not under anymore but is close enough dodge stealth rt twin turbo hp model no tickets no accidents own a house have taken defensive driving airbag abs security alarm single year decut state farm insurance this includes the additional for the umbrella policy over my car and house the base policy is the standard policy required in de after nd defensive driving course it will be less i bought the car in september the company i was with never had and accident or ticket in years quoted me hope this helps steve flynn university of delaware kevin hope i remembered your name correctly you asked about insurance for performance cars well last year i was in a similar situation before i bought my car and made the same inquiry as you age then and now car eagle talon tsi awd driving record clean state illinois cost mos i turn in may and the insurance goes down to mos also i m single and that incurs a higher rate with my company i ve got a couple other friends w awds and they pay more than i do different ins companies also so maybe i m just lucky hope the info helps dan dans jdc gss mot com motorola cellular subscriber group usa cc i m live in norman oklahoma drive an thunderbird sc have never made a claim against my insurance though i have been hit several times by negligent drivers who couldn t see stop signs or were fiddling with their radios and i have had three moving violations in the last months one for going in a one for failure to clear an intersection i still say the damn light was yellow and one for going in a which didn t go on my record my rates from state farm with a passive restraint deduction on liability deductible comprehensive and deductible collision are roughly year i was paying just over year for a escort lx james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven i am beyond the under age group but i have an experience a few years ago that might be interesting to you i owned a toyota celica gt i decided to buy myself a gift a more exotic car front runners included the toyota supra turbo and the porsche model years i narrowed it down to those two i liked the simplicity and handling and snob appeal too of driving a porsche the supra turbo was less money and had more features and performance almost a personal luxury car it had better acceleration and a higher top speed than the i was almost ready to give in to a buying impulse for the but i decided to stop by my insurance agent s office on the way i asked about what would happen to my rate with either car if you buy the supra your rate classification will be the same as the celica the celica was considered a subcompact and for that year was rated as one of the safest cars with a slight increase because the car will be years newer our lower risk division will continue to handle your account if you buy the porsche we ll have to change you to the standard higher rate company and your rate will double and if you go with a it s another story again we ll cover the rest of this year but cancel you after that but the supra is much faster than the and the is actually faster than the standard that doens t make sense that s what the book says we don t insure corvettes either for some reason the underwriters consider supras and their drivers as very traditional and conservative i eventually went with the supra for a number of reasons the porsche dealer had a nice salesman to get me interested but a tough high pressure guy in the back room at equal monthly payments it would have taken a year longer to pay for the porsche plus its higher insurance i concluded that the high insurance was related to probability of auto theft everyone s entitled to my opinion goldberg oasys dt navy mil imagination is more important than knowledge albert einstein i live in idaho when i was many years ago years i bought a trans am new insurance was about year when i turned it immediately dropped to year i had not had any accidents before or after this was strictly an age change that same rate stayed pretty much the same until i sold the car years ago my f pickup is about year less the real amazing thing is that when i woke up at age i felt so much more responsible than i was before wes for your information california male single under no moving violation alfa spider year what a bargain let s see i m single male clean driving record i have a vw corrado vr i live in san jose california i pay a year through allstate a good deal if you ask me i was thinking about getting a talon but i think the insurance is higher for a turbo sports car vs a v w honda crx si clean record in a small new mexico town was around per year age nearby city rates were x x higher than where i ve got mine insured robert robert stack institute of transportation studies univ of california irvine stack translab its uci edu mazda protege lx per year saturn sc years old state new mexico insurance state farm here is my info car toyota celica st insurance co farmer s insurance yearly insurance age date of license oct residence mountain view california no moving violations for now atleast hope this helps please post a summary if possible vijay vijay anisetti email anisetti informix com apt off single years old eagle talon turbo awd full cover reasonable liability no tickets no violations no accidents knock on wood mass one thing that makes a huge difference in mass is the town you live in i m personally in one of the best towns within reasonable distance of boston if i moved to the absolute best it would go down to about if i moved to the worst it would be also one accident and a couple of tickets would probably add another rv i have a mitsubishi eclipse turbo awd am years old and have no tickets that went on my record i live in illinois just outside of chicago and pay a year with full coverage at state farm i did get a small discount because of my alarm system a year i only live miles from chicago but if i actually lived in the city the price would be about a year i m over but in case you re interested anyway i m insuring a sho for month thats k personal k total k property with deductible glass and towing state farm unless you are under or have been driving for less than years i think you are being seriously ripped off i don t have one of the performance cars you listed but if your record is clean then you should not be paying over k did you try calling all the insurance dealers you could find although rates are supposed to be standardized i ve found that most places i initially call give me some ridiculously high quote and finaly i hit one that is much lower also i have changed insurance companies when the rate went up at renewal no accidents tickets car gets older to maintain a low rate you always have to be careful when it comes to insurance companies good luck serge
rec.autos	header for honda civic si hello i am looking to slightly increase the performance of my honda civic si i was wondering if anyone could suggest upgrades that were not too drastic i thought that one of the easiest upgrades would be a new header does anyone know what kind of increase that the header would give me i think i would check with jackson racing for the part are there any other comparines would make honda parts are there any other small changes that can be easily made and won t screw up the car things like new injectors new fuel injection chip etc i would welcome any suggestions of small changes that would make a difference i don t really want to change the cam etc because i have heard that it would be much harder on the engine e mail relpies prefered please and i will post a summary of all the replies thanks for any help you may have to offer jeff smith jsmith cs dal ca dalhousie university halifax ns
rec.autos	re impala ss going into production qazi csd csd uwm edu writes from the latest issue of autoweek the chevy impala ss will arrive in dealer showrooms in mid dealers have already been notified no word on the changes to be made for the production version my question to all of you is would you buy it and how much would you pay for it aamir qazi qazi csd csd uwm edu why should i care i d rather watch drying paint aamir qazi qazi csd csd uwm edu why should i care i d rather watch drying paint alright gm finally my wishes have come true moby dick with a corvette engine don t you think they should maybe spend the money doing something about the lousy build quality design of their bigger selling cars this is another example of why gm is in so much trouble if you re going to stick the lt or zr engine in a car at least make it a nice looking one sheesh
rec.autos	re chrysler new yorker lhs was re chryslers compact lh sedans warren brown the washington post s auto writer was the first journalist to get his hands on the new yorker if you d like his impressions of it his review appeared in friday s paper in the weekend section he is not your traditional auto writer enjoy
rec.autos	re bimmer vs beamer in article apr newsgate sps mot com markm latium mark monninger writes although not in direct response to the referenced article just to set the record straight beamers are bmw motorcycles bmw cars are bimmers please huh i though beamers were ibm employees let s get our terms straight actually some purists would argue that the only true bimmer is a round tail light or mark
rec.autos	for sale celica repair manuals two volume soft cover repair manuals for all models of toyota celicas probably good for models as well like new condition these are the manuals used by the toyota dealers mechanics they normally cost over new obo brian donnell brian gothamcity jsc nasa gov
rec.autos	mr parts does anyone know of a dead first generation mr i need body parts steering rack and a few minor pieces i was about to buy a parts car but the owner backed out after month of pulling my leg arrrrgh mike s
rec.autos	improvements in automatic transmissions the biggest hurdle for automatics imho is not shifting speed per se but rather the transmission s reaction speed when you try to force it to shift manually this was the biggest fault with the subaru ecvt it took soooooo lonnnnnnnnggggg for the tranny to find the right ratio the sales propaganda says the saturn automatic is effectively an electronically shifted manual might this mean that saturn has conquered the problem i dunno only driven saturn speeds input please another question any plans for a manual trans chrysler lh does anyone else out there fall asleep at night dreaming of this combo
rec.autos	slick any good chances are that this has been discussed to death already and if so could someone who has kept the discussion mail me or direct me to an archive site basically i am just wondering if slick really does all it says that it does and also is there any data to support the claim thanks for any info mike davis mad a fermi clas virginia edu
rec.autos	re lois chevrolet the chevrolet brothers were respected racers test drivers for the buick co when durant was there when the directors kicked durant out of gm in he took chevrolet and others with him as mentioned before they founded the successful chevrolet company a little known fact is that the chevrolet co actually took over gm that was how durant got back in charge of gm legally his new company chevrolet co did the buying and gm was a division of chevrolet after and into the sloan era gm shuffled things so that the gm board was superior but there was always a degree of autonomy given the chevy division presumably because of the initial structure if you look at the organization chart for gm in sloan s book chevy division reports directly to th floor not through the passenger car division which covers buick olds cadillac and oakland pontiac jeff hagen minor deity of worthless auto trivia hagenjd ac wfu edu
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time in article w z b w w cellar org blu cellar org dan reed writes fact is i just leave the valet key in my glovebox for whenever i need it that will make it easy for a car thief saves him her the trouble of popping your ignition dick grady salem nh usa grady world std com so many newsgroups so little time
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time in article c hqj unix amherst edu bhtulin unix amherst edu barak h tulin writes i just started reading this thread today so forgive me if it has already been mentioned but what was the deal with renault s putting the horn on the left hand turn signal stalk it was a button on the end where the washer button would be on the wiper washer stalk could the frenchies not figure out the wiring through the steering wheel or what ford tried that also back in my ranger pickup had the horn at the end of the turn signal stalk instead of in the center of the wheel where god intended it to be i drove two different cars then the other an camry and never did get used to pushing the turn signal stalk to blow the horn the only time i got it right was when i was getting the annual state required safety inspection not one of ford s better ideas dick grady salem nh usa grady world std com so many newsgroups so little time
rec.autos	re where can i get a new york taxi wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes actually you want a checker special if you can find one good luck i m sorry i let mine go i grew up in new york city so i rode in many checker cabs the jump seats were fun as a kid although the cars were roomy a good trait for a taxi they had a design flaw that i don t understand they never fixed the rear passengers tended to fall out of their seats when the driver braked i wouldn t want to take a long ride in the back seat of one of these vehicles why did you like yours i never drove one so i have to ask tommy reingold at t bell labs holmdel nj tommy boole att com or att boole tommy
rec.autos	re seating ergonomics headroom in article amiller almaden ibm com amiller almaden ibm com alex miller writes my physical therapist has suggested that a good driving position for me is to have my back nearly vertical and for my knees not to be much higher than my hips are there any cars that are particularly good in respect to having both headroom and a well designed seat height take a look at mini vans i sat in a dodge caravan which had a high seat and plenty of headroom dick grady salem nh usa grady world std com so many newsgroups so little time
rec.autos	re improvements in automatic transmissions hagenjd wfu edu jeff hagen writes the biggest hurdle for automatics imho is not shifting speed per se but rather the transmission s reaction speed when you try to force it to shift manually i rented an oldsmobile achieva is that a yuppie name or what and a nissan stanza they both had automatics i m a manual transmission bigot but i have to admit that the transmissions on these cars were better shifters than i am and yes they responded very quickly to kickdown requests the nissan had a tachometer so i was able to figure out which gear i was in the olds may have also but i don t remember i believe it shifted all the way down to second at about mph when my foot told it no i really want to accelerate quickly i would still prefer a manual but i won t delude myself into thinking that i can out accelerate a modern automatic and i m very smooth at shifting but certainly not as good as an automatic tommy reingold at t bell labs holmdel nj tommy boole att com or att boole tommy
rec.autos	zx or sc hi everyone i m getting a car in the near future i ve narrow it down to zx and sc which might be a better choice thanks for your opnion danny hey you programmers out there danny phornprapha please consider this ip lehigh edu bugs are another endangered earth lucc student konsultant species needing your protection work
rec.autos	prizm s radio question i was lloking at the geo prizm lsi today very nice anyway i had a questions that the salesperson couldn t answer how does the theft deterrent on the prizm s audio systems work can t find the answer in any of geo s lterature thanks in advance archie holmes
rec.autos	opinions on recent alfa spiders anyone have any opinions on fairly recent model alfa spiders reliablilty for what their class i m not talking alfa vs toyota corrola which is more relaible as far as i can discern in recent years there are levels with all basically the same mechanical aspects please email any responses ted schreiber mechanical enginering northwestern university tel fax email rts nwu edu
rec.autos	re mazda just does not feel right the car might also need a front end alignment particularly if you re describing wandering
rec.autos	re car buying story was christ another dealer service scam in article libemc byuvm bitnet libemc byuvm bitnet writes mark states in his post to know the dealer price and offer above my husband and i are in the market to buy our first car together and neither of us know how to go about it how do you find out the dealer price are their books to look in do you send away somewhere for it several company publish periodicals or times a year which list the sticker prices and the dealer invoice prices of all the cars and their options edmund s is the name of one such price guide you can find these price guides at most places which sell magazines dick grady salem nh usa grady world std com so many newsgroups so little time
rec.autos	traffic rules at intersections i am presently doing a masters thesis to do with traffic intersections in new zealand but a lot of the books i am researching from are from america or australia and so i was wondering if anyone could please tell me what the road rules are in either country with regard to intersections thanks julian visch jsv math canterbury ac nz i
rec.autos	eagle talon tsi lemon dear netters i am looking to buy a used eagle talon or tsi awd question is that the tsi awd was mentioned in the april consumer reports to a car to avoid in particular the manual transmission electrical system and brakes were below par in both models a friend of mine ownes a tsi awd and he has had brake jobs pads one stuck valve and some clutch transmission problem something about sticking grinding into second gear this doesn t seem too bad if one beats on his car i am willing to suffer reliability for speed and looks seems you have to pay big buck if you want all three anyway can anyone please let me know how you like your talon and any problems you may have had and if the repairs are worth it thanks for any responses jay
rec.autos	re dumb options list in article apr acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes the idea here is to list pointless options you know stuff you get on a car that has no earthly use power windows i like my power windows i think they re worth it however cruise control is a pretty dumb option what s the point if you re on a long trip you floor the gas and keep your eyes on the rear view mirror for cops right power seats are pretty dumb too unless you re unlucky enough to have to share your car otherwise you d just adjust it once and just leave it like that allen tom you re not like the others you like the same atom soda berkeley edu things i do wax paper boiled football atom netcom com leather dog breath we re not hitchhiking anymore we re riding ren
rec.autos	re wife wants convertible if you hold off there are a number of interesting convertibles coming to market in the next few years the new lebaron will be based on the mitsubishi galant which should be an improvement over the current model the new pl compact will have a convertible option also a chrysler product kia makers of the ford festiva is planning a larger convertible steve morris m a internet smorris sumax seattleu edu addiction studies pgm uucp uw beaver uunet gtenmc dataio sumax smorris seattle university phone dept or direct seattle wa
rec.autos	re improvements in automatic transmissions an excellent automatic can be found in the subaru legacy it switches to sport mode when the electronics figure it not when the driver sets the switch which is the proper way to do it imo so what does sport mode entail several things revving to red line or to the rev limiter in the case of the legacy delayed upshifts i e if you lift off briefly it will remain in the low gear this is handy if you are charging through corners and would like to do without the distraction of upshifts when there s another curve approaching part throttle downshifts based on the speed at which the pedal is depressed rather than the position of the pedal modern electronics can measure this very easily and switch to sport mode this is wonderful if you want to charge through a green light about to turn red my audi senses this very well and can downshift on as little as half throttle if my right foot is fast enough also i think that a smart automatic can deliver better gas mileage than a dumb driver with a stick all else being equal remember that the idea of a stick being more economical than an automatic makes a big assumption that the driver is smart enough to know what gear to use for each situation how many times have you ridden with an inattentive driver cruising on the highway at in th gear of a speed how many of people who drive manuals really know what the best gear to use is for every conceivable situation i m sure there will be some who know but i suspect that a chip controlled automatic with all possible scenario ratio combinations stored in rom is likely to do better i can also say that all my previous assumptions were proved wrong after i got a car with instantaneous mpg readout high gear low revs and wide open throttle is more economical than low gear high revs and small throttle opening the explanation is quite simple if one sits down to think about it but not that obvious at first sight eliot
rec.autos	re taurus sable rotor recall we get about taurus sables for fleet cars at our site every year then the company sells them a year later to employees the folks i know who drive buy them have no complaints the cars seem to drive real nice too
rec.autos	re manual shift bigots in rec autos you write if ayrton senna can drive a racecar with fully automatic transmission it can t be half bad this mclaren auto transmission i still think it s only half auto but you may be right has nothing to do with your gm chrysler volvo or whatever auto transmission it s a normal manual transmission gearbox with clutch and all but there are servo motors which do the shifting that means there is no power loss in the drivetrain if you take out minimal mechanical friction and the sami auto transmissions ferrari williams mclaren don t tell you when to shift either however these transmissions share an important disadvantage with your stock auto trannie they are expensive as long as these servo shifted gearboxes aren t available on normal cars i m gonna stick with my manual i just can t see an advantage to make up for two grand i lose in this deal and the loss in mileage and power except maybe in real heavy traffic but then i drive mostly on the autobahn and country roads anyway there s no point in making a religion out of this i just wanted to point out a few technical facts and my own opinion so there s no need for a flame war eliot have a safe ride chris
rec.autos	re zx or sc ip ns cc lehigh edu danny phornprapha writes hi everyone i m getting a car in the near future i ve narrow it down to zx and sc which might be a better choice thanks for your opnion danny i ve been asking myself this same question for the past year so if when you find out would you please share the magistic answer with me the way i see it right now work twice as hard so you can have both cheers issa
rec.autos	re rfi art of clutchless shifting jong halcyon com barking weasel writes schludermann sscvx ssc gov writes my technique is to ease back off the throttle and at the same time gently wrist back on the shift lever if for some reason i miss the shift window i lightly press the accelerator try agian i ve found that clutchless shifting is eaiser quicker at high rpms i also skip gears some times using sounds about right i usually slip it out during throttle down and then blip the throttle and wait until it feels like things are right usually about a second and then slip it into gear so how did you guys learn this is it something you were born with or did you make horrible grinding noises the first few times how many times i would think you d have to have a certain amount of feel for it to begin with some people would never get it and others like me would never have the guts to try it unless maybe you were planning to buy a new transmission anyway btw i ve heard that quite a few truckers and race car drivers shift this way zaphod madnix uucp ron bean uwvax astroatc nicmad madnix zaphod
rec.autos	st time chrysler buyer off really hello world just bought a new stealth two weeks ago got a grad student rebate someone told me that there s another reabet for st time chrysler buyer true if yes can i still get it or am i too late mubashir cheema sparco communications ph lagalarie fax russell street suite email mac ra msstate edu starkville ms
rec.autos	vw passat advice sought i am currently in the car market and would like opinions on a vw passat glx how does it compare to a toyota camry i thought the car looked very solid stable and european only disappointment so far is that that it doesn t offer an airbao my next question is why isn t vw offering automobiles with airbags should i pay the extra three thousand for a bmw is even though it is smaller and less powerful than than the passat
rec.autos	re i m getting a car i need opinions in article apr ns cc lehigh edu ip ns cc lehigh edu danny phornprapha writes i have as my budget i m looking for a sports or gt car what do you think would be the best buy well for a bit more you could get an mazda rx definitely a best for under k you re stuck with in no particular order chevy camaro z lt ponitac firebird firehawk ford mustang cobra toyota mr turbo gmc typhoon travis
rec.autos	re for hail damage a record i was in the great storm my mazda mpv was damaged so bad they are going to replace the top doors and hood it is black so they will repaint the entire vehicle estimated cost around and repair time approx to weeks rremaley bcm tmc edu
rec.autos	re auto air conditioning without freon in article apr research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna writes in article apr newsgate sps mot com rapw email sps mot com writes in article apr research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna writes several chemists already have come up with several substitutes for r you don t hear about them because the mobile air conditioning society macs that is the people who stand to rake in that to per retrofit per automobile have mounted an organized campaign to squash those r substitutes out of existence if not ban them altogether on very shaky technical grounds at best on outright lies at worst now i m not saying you re wrong because i know that the r substitutes exist but this sounds a lot like the mpg carbs that the oil companies keep us all from getting it sounds crazy but it s true one of the best r subsitutes ghg is currently a commercial product unfortunately the sae committee on mobile air conditioning is comprised almost exclusively of macs members such being the case no papers about any alternative refrigerant other than r a have been accepted for review publication yo john you want to provide some more details or should i just repost your voluminous repost later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs we here are very interested in info on r substitutes in fact i think we really need all the info on this we can get i would really appreciate technical supply and hardware upgrade details also r is a useful solvent reagent in the extraction production of certain pharmaceuticals any info on the substitutes corresponding usefullness i am currently working with the local engineers who are making sure we are compliant with the regulations the trouble with regulations is that they only tell you what you are no longer permitted to do not what you should do instead i think the cause of the new regulations is the montreal protocol which has a definite cfc phase out schedule of course the cause of the montreal protocol was all the research done on the causes of the ozone depletion problem someone asked earlier about why the governments were working so fast to ban the ozone depleting cfc chemicals and not gasolines and other greenhouse gas producing compounds the greenhouse effect produced by infrared trapping gasses like co and methane and the ozone hole problem produced by long lived chlorine containing molecules are not the same thing it is a lot easier to do something about not using the cfc s chloro fluorocarbons than it is to stop producing co and methane which are natural byproducts of combustion and of living animal organisms planting more trees and not destroying so many existing trees would help the greenhouse gas problem but would do nothing for the ozone problem fred w bach operations group internet music erich triumf ca triumf tri university meson facility voice loc wesbrook mall ubc campus fax university of british columbia vancouver b c canada v t a these are my opinions which should only make you read think and question they do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers
rec.autos	re open letter to nissan in qideqinnl sumax seattleu edu smorris sumax seattleu edu steven a morris writes hey nissan why aren t you guys making any station wagons you used to make a wagon on every platform sentra stanza maxima and now none at all in fact they make some but they just don t sell them here in u s sunny california is a l wagon based on sentra avenil is a l wd wd wagon it looks like infinity g but actually it s independently designed to be a wagon i mean it s not based on any sedans nissan had better consider to sell them here after buying my se r and really loving it i would like to buy another nissan product for my wife but prefer a wagon i ve owned minivans and don t prefer them how about an altima wagon or a sentra wagon would do sounds nice but i doubt they have a plan coz avenil was introduced to replace any sedan based wagon or here s an even better suggestion why don t you guys go ahead and buy the rest of fuji heavy industries subaru and put either an in line or v into the legacy wd wagon i d buy the legacy in a minute if it had a nissan engine instead of the horizontal that they seem sentimentally attached to with all the camry accord taurus volvo and subaru wagons out there it s got to be a market segment that would be worthwhile i can wait a year or two but if you don t have something to compete by the model i may have to go elsewhere thanks steve morris m a internet smorris sumax seattleu edu addiction studies pgm uucp uw beaver uunet gtenmc dataio sumax smorris seattle university phone dept or direct seattle wa
rec.autos	re warning please read from article apr virginia edu by ejv j virginia edu erik velapoldi this happened about a year ago on the washington dc beltway snot nosed drunken kids decided it would be really cool to throw huge rocks down on cars from an overpass four or five cars were hit there were several serious injuries and sadly a small girl sitting in the front seat of one of them was struck in the head by one of the larger rocks i don t recall if she made it but i think she was comatose for a month or so and doctors weren t holding out hope that she d live what the hell is happening to this great country of ours i can see boyhood pranks of peeing off of bridges and such but pound rocks has our society really stooped this low erik velapold yes
rec.autos	re warning please read in article apr cbnewse cb att com turbo cbnewse cb att com gerald l lindahl writes from article apr virginia edu by ejv j virginia edu erik velapoldi this happened about a year ago on the washington dc beltway snot nosed drunken kids decided it would be really cool to throw huge rocks down on cars from an overpass four or five cars were hit there were several serious injuries and sadly about a year ago some kids tossed a rock off an overpass on i near eau claire wisconsin and it killed the driver below i believe he was a schoolteacher from minnesota jason hanson w wisconsin ave marquette university milwaukee wi ham radio n lea ae jason studsys mscs mu edu n lea n ary nocal ca usa na
rec.autos	re car buying story was christ another dealer service scam mark monninger markm bigfoot sps mot com wrote while not exactly a service incident i had a similar experience recently when i bought a new truck i had picked out the vehicle i wanted and after a little haggling we agreed on a price i wrote them a check for the down payment plus tax and license and told them i d be back that evening to pick up the truck when i returned i had to wait about an hour before the finance guy could get to me when i finally got in there everything went smoothly until he started adding up the numbers he then discovered that they had miscalculated the tax license by about he then said he needed another from me i said we had already agreed on a price and it was their problem i wasn t giving them any more money the finance guy then a similar thing happend to me a year ago i bought a used ford bronco which has since been stolen and few weeks after i paid and took delivery they sent a letter telling me they goofed and miscalculated the license renewal by and that i need to send in a check to avoid further delay in the processing of my registration the thing is i had already received the pink slip from the dmv so i ignored it i received another letter and then the phone calls started coming first from the finance guy and then from the general manager both hounding me for the extra money they left me alone once i told them i already had the paperwork and pointed out the clause in the contract that stated that the final price was just that final afterall they wouldn t budge if i had told them i wanted another off after the deal had been signed right i told them not to call again and that i would not do business with them in the future they didn t seem to have a problem with that this after all was a used ford at a toyota dealership i had a much better experience buying a new pathfinder about a month ago it certainly pays to buy a car on the last sunday of the month it was even raining too so they had done very little business that weekend and were really willing to deal i kept telling them i would think about it and they kept dropping the price got a very good deal and so far have been very please with the service john jdenune pandora sdsu edu
rec.autos	seeking good alfa romeo mechanic i am looking for recommendations for a good great alfa romeo mechanic in south jersey or philadelphia or nearby i have a alfa spider that needs some engine tranny steering work done the body is in quite good shape the car is awful in cold weather won t start if below freezing i know i know why drive a spider if there s snow on the ground it has bosch mechanical fuel injection that i am sure needs adjustment any opinions are welcome on what to look for or who to call email or post to rec autos i will summarize if people want thx andy brandt cs unc edu
rec.autos	re changing oil by self in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu sorlin magnus acs ohio state edu steven j orlin writes i take the electrodes of the amp ohm volt meter whatever and connect one to each earlobe then symmetrically insert my fingers in each of the spark plug boots no cheating guys both hands must be used i have just a couple of questions about this technique first what firing order should i use do i start with my pointer finger or my pinky left hand or right and secondly i have a cyl and there are two cylinders unaccounted for any suggestions andy
rec.autos	re do trains have radar in article apr usho hou chevron com hhtra usho hou chevron com t m haddock writes while taking an extended easter vacation i was going north on i somewhere between centerville tx and dallas tx and i came upon a train parked on a trestle with its locomotive sitting directly over the northbound lanes there appeared to be movement within the cab and out of curiosity i slowed to to get a better look just as i passed from underneath the trestle my radar detector went into full alert all lights lit and all chirps beeps and buzzes going strong i thought i had been nailed good but no police materialized could this have been caused by the train s radio or what travis boy travis were you lucky you went under the new texas rangers stealth patrol car good thing you slowed down newsgroups rec autos distribution world references apr usho hou chevron com from dje bmw nosubdomain nodomain don eilenberger organization subject re do trains have radar keywords
rec.autos	honda accord brake problem my honda accord just hit the magic mile mark and now all sorts of things are beginning to go bad the latest problem i am experiencing is with my brakes they still stop the car fine but once i am stopped completely my brake pedal will sink another or inches all by itself if feels really strange and i am worried my brakes will quit working one of these days i checked my brake fluid and the reservoir was full but the fluid itself looked really dirty like dirty oil i called my mechanic and he told me i need a new brake master cylinder which will cost me a whopping i was just wondering if anyone out there has experienced this sort of thing if so is my mechanic being honest or do i simply need to have my brakes bled and new fluid put in any help you could provide would be appreciated please send replies directly to me as i rarely have a chance to read this list i will post the responses if there is any interest thanks joni ciarlett mizar usc edu
rec.autos	cleaning eurowiper boots i have the eurowiper boots in white and had to throw away the first pair since i found no way of cleaning them after they looked almost black now i have my second pair of white ones and once again they are dirty i need a way to clean them w o removing them since i had to cut them to remove them is there a way or should i just buy black ones thanks joel joel sprechman sprec j acsu buffalo edu university at buffalo v pff ubvms cc buffalo edu it s not a black white thing it s a homosapian thing it takes a big man to cry and an even bigger man to laugh at that man jack handy
rec.autos	re open letter to nissan really station wagon with the popularity of minivans the market room for station wagons is squeezed out they are not as comfortable as sedan and don t carry as much as the minivans this is not to say nobody wants the wagon anymore but the demand is certainly hampered by the minivan and may not be economical to build a product for jason chen a station wagon owner
rec.autos	re old corvettes low insurance in article c j mi fmi news rich bnr ca peon w o email eric youngblood writes in article apr ns cc lehigh edu swr ns cc lehigh edu scott warren rosander writes in article c csux fn news cso uiuc edu gdhg uxa cso uiuc edu george hei nz writes after too many years of school i m finally graduating and getting a real job of course i am trying to make plans of how to spend all this extra money right now i have an accord a good car but not real sporty i was thinking of selling it in about two years and dropping around k on a sports car of some kind after thinking about it i may have a better idea i ll keep the accord until it drops and buy the car i ve always wanted a corvette stingray my reasoning is that accord corvette is less than what i would spend anyway basically i m thinking of a late s early s for around k my question is what are good years to consider for reliability looks horsepower in that order believe it or not horsepower is not a main concern if i want to go fast i get on my motorcycle and what are good prices also what would insurance look like i m male single i might wait until i m to get the car lower insurance would the fact that i mainly drive the other car lower it is there some type of classic car or rarely driven insurance class for driving it under k miles per year my dad has a vette and its on what you say classic insurance basically what that means is that it has restricted amount of driving time which basically means it cant be used as an every day car and would probably suit your needs for limited mileage in my area denver if you look around alittle you can get an for or less not much less you said your not looking to go fast they are a really nice car just not real powerful in addition to restricted mileage many classic insurance carriers also require that the vehicle be garaged when not in use ericy eric youngblood bell northern research richardson texas peon w o email privs
rec.autos	re sho clutch question grinding noise in article c h f ldu news rich bnr ca jcyuhn crchh nosubdomain nodomain james yuhn writes that s not the clutch you re hearing its the gearbox early shos have a lot of what is referred to as gear rollover noise you can generally i have one of the first shos built and mine doesn t make this noise
rec.autos	re too fast in article qh m b l armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes it s a bit hard to prove a point like this but i can compare the i was hoping for something like the chassis exhibits x degrees of flex when subjected to forces of more than y units forces of more than y units begin to manifest at z miles per hour not well gee it wasn t designed to go fast because uhh well gee it wasn t designed to go fast it s not a porsche you know come with better seatbelts more supportive seats a stronger passenger compartment cage better brakes a stiffer suspension different tires and a body design that takes advantage of aero effects to keep the car on the ground what do they come with well as compared to the normal taurus the sho comes with more supportive seats better brakes a stiffer suspension different tires and a body design that takes advantage of aero effects to keep the car on the ground or at least i think that s what all that boy racer plastic is for you re kidding yourself if you think any car on the road has a passenger compartment made to withstand mph impacts compare either to the porsche and you tell me which was designed oh right only dollar cars should be driven fast they drive goddamn rabbits at mph in europe pal and i reckon a taurus is at least as capable as a rabbit certainly haven t convinced me of course not speeding is bad speeding is illegal i will not speed i love big brother you had your mind made up already it s interesting that lots of the roads out west had no speed limits until wr
rec.autos	re too fast in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john f nielsen writes there may be a case where a speed limit sign is not necessary but take them away entirely yeah you re right doing away with speed limits would just mean huge tax increases as municipalities tried to make up for the revenue they used to gouge from passing motorists
rec.autos	re too fast in article shaman wv tek com andrew frip wv tek com writes so is cocaine what s your point that neither is harmful when used carefully
rec.autos	re too fast wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes compare either to the porsche and you tell me which was designed oh right only dollar cars should be driven fast they drive goddamn rabbits at mph in europe pal and i reckon a taurus is at least as capable as a rabbit my whole point was not to say that the cars couldn t go that fast but that they shouldn t go that fast a family sedan designed to be operable at mph doesn t suddenly become operable at mph because you added some plastic aero effects slightly wider tires and a much larger engine that s what the sho is a slightly modified family sedan with a powerful engine they didn t even bother improving the brakes the mustang is essentially the same deal as the sho a big power plant stuck in a mid size sedan with almost no other modifications i have real life experience with the mustang it handles like a brick except when you re invoking oversteer of course something i personally avoid doing on the highway and stopping power is inadequate even from mph lots of accelleration but the rest of the car is not up to par i picked the porsche example because they are designed with speed in mind it didn t have to be the it could have been the much cheaper or one of several mercedes or audi models all of these cars are fairly expensive but so are the parts that make them drivable at high speed this should be elementary there are a few things to keep in mind about europe since you brought it up my autobahn knowledge is admittedly second hand but i believe the following to be true drivers are much better disciplined in europe than they are here the roads comprising the autobahn are much better designed than they are here and usually include animal fences this makes them far more predictable than most us highways not all of europe is the autobahn most places in europe have speed limits that aren t out of line with what we used to have in the us if my friends weren t lying to me they re typically not much higher than km h i strongly suspect you won t find a lot of rabbit owners doing mph nearly km h on the autobahn but i could be wrong some people have no respect for their own lives you certainly haven t convinced me of course not speeding is bad speeding is illegal i will not speed i love big brother you had your mind made up already if you think so you sure don t pay attention to my postings jim frost jimf centerline com
rec.autos	re cherokee v explorer jcksnste acf nyu edu writes hi all brand new to the group so please no flames honest opinions on jeep cherokee country not sport v ford explorer my stepfather who ponders every major decision up to four months after making it is looking at one of the two also please comment on the importance if any between wd and wd we live in princeton nj and will barely ever take it off road we learned with this last winter that we could really use something with a little more confidence in inches of snow than an olds cutlass eighty eight all replies appreciated he ll be pondering this for a while he s already decided on cyl over so don t worry about that one thanks steve i own a new ford explorer i really love it i drove the jeep and besides the power i just didn t see spending the money for it the jeep was great but i just love the explorer i have a wd and i got through the blizzard of just fine i drove about miles in the worst part of storm and it never faulterd my own opinion doug i jcksnste acf nyu edu
rec.autos	re ranger vs s opinions if your buying a compact pickup do yourself a favor and wait a few months for the gmc sonoma magazines are saying it is day and night over the current truck it s georgeous solid and fast hp vortec v should whip the ranger in every area too accept maybe payload and always pick a gmc over a chevy gmc s are always so much better looking man i miss the comanche marty and matt owings ninja type rider dudes it s a feeling that we all wanna know and it s an obsession to some to keep the world in you rearview mirror while you try to run down the sun wheels by rhestless heart
rec.autos	lh workmanship i just visited the ny auto show and saw two lh cars on the floor eagle vision and dodge intrepid really nice i must say very attractive styling lots of features and room at a competitive price unfortunately the workmanship is quite disappointing on both cars the rubber seals around the window and door fell off it turns out the seals are just big grooved rubber band it goes on just by pressing the groove against the tongue on the door frame surely it would come off easily i am not sure how many of this kind of pooring engineering assembly problems that will show up later i may still consider buying it but only when it establishes a good track record jason chen
rec.autos	re changing oil by self in article apr porthos cc bellcore com dje bmw nosubdomain nodomain don eilenberger writes in article qgi einnhs skeena ucs ubc ca yiklam unixg ubc ca yik chong lam writes hello does anyone know how to take out the bolt under the engine compartment should i turn clockwise or counter i tried any kind of lubricants wd etc but i still failed do you think i can use a electric drill change to a suitable bit to turn it out if i can succeed can i re tighten it not too tight is it safe without oil leak thank you very much in advance winson i would suggest you take the car to the nearest chevron dealer with your own oil and filter ask for an oil change it will cost less than watch him her do it just from watching someone do a job you will be able to learn and remember the sequence and do it right when you do it yourself the next time besides when he she loosens the drain nut the next time around it will be easier for you if it is stuck use an impact wrench not too much force though use a new washer each time you put the nut back s ssave ole cdac com
rec.autos	pontiac e mail car clubs i am interested to know if there is any pontiac e mail car clubs out there has anyone started one or is anybody thinking about starting one thanks for any info you can give me maloney badlands nodak edu
rec.autos	re ultimate awd vehicles in article apr engr washington edu eliot lanmola engr washington edu eliot writes in article q huinnjrv uwm edu qazi csd csd uwm edu writes subarus don t sell that well although the percentage of subes purchased with awd is probably relatively high of all subarus sold are wd awd audi is backing down on the number of models it offers with awd before one could purchase an or with awd but now it is reserved strictly for the top line model the same goes for the the q has been eliminated from the us lineup but the is still available in quattro version though it is hardly cheap they are still true to their pledge of making wd an option on their entire line of cars now if only they will bring in the s wagon eliot before the s became the s it was called the turbo quattro v this model did come in a wagon a very quick wagon very rare also mike sylvester umass
rec.autos	re warning please read sorry for the auto content but that is why low abiding citizens should have the power to protect themselves and their property using deadly force if necessary anywhere a threat is imminent steve heracleous you do have the power steve you can do it why don t you why don t you go shoot some kids who are tossing rocks onto cars make sure you do a good job though don t miss cause like they have big rocks and take it from me those kids are mean
rec.autos	re changing oil by self in article apr progress com damelio progress com stephen d amelio writes bmoss grinch sim es com brent woody moss writes you could take a screw driver and hammer and start punching holes in various locations and when some black slippery stuff starts pouring out then you would know that the oil drain plug is nearby within a foot or two anyway close the holes with toilet paper before refileing with oil though you have to refill the engine with oil wow no wonder i can t get an engine to last more than my first oil change don t forget to punch holes in the radiator too it will spray nice refreshing water on the engine and keep it nice cool steve gee you really make me confused what is radiator where is it located what does it look like will it release any radiation since it sounds like radia tion genera tor when you punch holes hanguyen
rec.autos	re instead of a saturn sc what one thing that everyone is forgetting in this argument over the pricing of the sc vs the japanese cars is the saturns no dicker sticker this makes the saturn s price low in comparison to the inflated base prices of the japanese competition on paper but in reality one could dicker several hundred dollars off the price of the japanese cars admittedly though here in canada at least the sc is in the same price class as the civic si not the sc steve hui
rec.autos	re instead of a saturn sc what for those that are interested i got my fully optioned air abs sunroof se r in september for in sacramento ca it was one of the st s sold few of the dealers had any no local dealer had an abs equipped se r i went straight to the fleet manager at the dealership i liked told him what i wanted made him aware that i knew what his price should be he called me back with exactly what i wanted from a dealer mi away i took delivery the next day
rec.autos	re lh workmanship in article apr walter bellcore com jchen ctt bellcore com writes i just visited the ny auto show and saw two lh cars on the floor eagle vision and dodge intrepid really nice i must say very attractive styling lots of features and room at a competitive price unfortunately the workmanship is quite disappointing on both cars the rubber seals around the window and door fell off it turns out the seals are just big grooved rubber band it goes on just by pressing the groove against the tongue on the door frame surely it would come off easily lack of build quality was the thing i notced on the first lh s i saw months back the panel gaps were large and non uniform between the cars i saw the kind of thing you expect and accept on a mustang but not from chrysler s savior i drove one of the low end cars and thought it was more than adequate i d prefer an lh to a taurus from my brief experience craig i am not sure how many of this kind of pooring engineering assembly problems that will show up later i may still consider buying it but only when it establishes a good track record jason chen
rec.autos	re too fast in article bob cos bob cos com bob blackshaw writes in apr cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes in article qg v ju umcc umcc umich edu mhartman umcc umcc umich edu mark hartman writes driving in a straight line is fine you very soon become aclimated to it it s only a rush when there are corners that you don t think you can make on a clear autobahn is nothing in the u s of people and all judges would label you insane and it is difficult to persuade people otherwise sure but the surface condition of most good autobahns is far better the quality of autobahns is something of a myth the road surface isn t much different to a typical tx freeway they are better in terms of lighting safety signs roadmarkings etc i d have no problem driving on most us freeways as it is i save it for the backroads which really are more likely to be dangerous than most of the roads here a dip in the asphalt that you test your shocks on at will kill you at don t get me wrong i love to it would have to be quite severe i don t recall any us freeway without road damage warnings that i would regard as unsafe at in any decent well damped car note that my definition of decent well damped would exclude most typical american sedans drive quickly and they say my probe will do but that s more than i ve ever tried in it cause there isn t a decent enough piece of road hereabouts i don t know where you live but i would be much more worried about cops other traffic etc than the road surface at it just isn t that fast or that dangerous if you have a probe gt no problem the cyl models i have driven would be likely to be unpredictable at higher speeds craig craig mark hartman mhartman umcc umcc umich edu kalamazoo mi bk cleveland freenet edu i m naked in the school sleepyhead bob
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time in article c jnk jkt news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes wasn t the original intent of the reverse lights for the driver so he could see where he was backing up although reverse lights on the sides no reverse lights are to warn others that you are backing up they aren t bright enough to typically see by without the brake and tail lights are useful for telling whether cars are backing up out perpendicular to the path of the car i don t think warnings were their original intents since they are colored white well red and orange were already taken maybe white defines the direction that the car is moving in if you really want to be able to see behind you get some fog lamps for the back of the car these work very well and are a good way to get rid of tailgaters if you get that rush of testosterone craig chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu neil peart c quick to judge quick to anger slow to understand ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand
rec.autos	re warning please read i deleted your name because i don t want to sound accusative in my remark this is a two sided problem unfortunately our culture has been deteriorating over time the breeding of these low life s is getting worse our justice system is at best extremely weak to handle these problems that is why low abiding citizens should have the power to protect themselves and their property using deadly force if necessary anywhere a threat is imminent my camaro my pride and joy got stolen right out of my driveway a few years back the persons that did that were eventually caught lucky for me but not before having trashed the car on another occasion on my way from texas to florida i had stopped in a small motel for the night in a small town somewhere in florida about youths were disturbing my car setting off the alarm and challenging me to come out when i and another tenant walked out with a magnum and a automatic respectively they vanished needless to say i immediately packed up and left watch out for car jacking and staged accidents they can be deadly i m not going to argue the issue of carrying weapons but i would ask you if you would have thought seriously about shooting a kid for setting off your alarm i can think of worse things in the world glad you got out of there before they did anything to give you a reason to fire your gun we can all ask what s happening to society these days but don t forget to ask another important question too what effort am i expending to make it any different than it is just my thoughts joe karolchik
rec.autos	re braindead drivers who don t look ahead in apr ctp com bpita ctp com bob pitas writes in article zdem a hgo zdem a hgo hou amoco com donna martz writes stuff deleted excuse me but i understood what mr smith meant and i have often observed when traffic is blocked solid that if a few people yeild to the moron who is impatiently riding bumpers the slug at the front of the pack will miraculously wake up change lanes and viola no more jam granted the situation here does not apply to rush hour in a crowded city but i have observed this situation regularly on your average interstate six or eight sets of cars side by side bunched up in a pack with open freeway fore and aft as far as you can see the people who refuse to yeild as a point of honor are just as annoying as the slug in the front i agree that if traffic is all blocked up and you want to pass you might not feel like moving over for someone behind you because you don t want to give them that one car length when they should just wait like you are but if you re one of those people that just sit s behind the person and doesn t flash them with the high beams or pull left and flash them or ride their bumper or otherwise tell them that you do in fact want to go by and you re not just drafting them then get the hell out of the way of someone who will i especially hate it when you flash someone at the back of a line and they don t pass it on so after i ve flashed my lights at the chap in front and he doesn t pass it on and few if any do what next on major highways or more lanes in each direction keeping to the extreme right blocks folks who are entering also as someone posted in this thread here in the d c area we have a few left lane exits sounds like if you wait until the last minute to get in the left lane you won t cause these yoyos won t make room we have a particularly bad strech here in merryland just over the cabin john bridge there are two very long entry ramps which all the hurry up yahoos dive into cause they want to get ahead when we get to the point where these ramps merge all hell breaks lose the result is that traffic which was moving at on the va side of the bridge stalls on t other side if these dingbats had stayed in lane allowed the folks coming up the two ramps to merge we would still be doing instead we do start stop for miles dave barry s idea of a laser equipped car would be real useful here bob ps if you drive the beltway and want to merge look for a brown probe with a silver haired driver then use your signals i don t read minds but i do try to be courteous they told me courtesy was contagious but i guess the folks around here have had their shots
rec.autos	re warning please read in article c jgc ajj dove nist gov keys starchild ncsl nist gov lawrence b keys writes i know that this isn t the group for it but since you brought it up does anyone have any idea why they haven t bombed the waco cult perhaps it is because witnesses who have left the compound have all testified that the batf shot first they they did not identify themselves before tossing in concussion grenades not that anyone inside could have heard such identification after being near a concussion grenade and the announcement from the batf that they have sealed the warrant under which they were operating which was a search warrant by the way not an arrest warrant in short perhaps because the batf is wildly out of control and perhaps calmer heads have realized that bombing a compound full of woman and children will not improve their position there is a real chance that koresh will be able to prove self defense in court that will leave what four officers dead and no one to blame but the batf followups directed to alt activism where the discussion has raged nearly as long as the seige and which shows every sign of not giving up nearly as soon larry smith smith ctron com no i don t speak for cabletron need you ask liberty is not the freedom to do whatever we want it is the freedom to do whatever we are able
rec.autos	re electronic odometers was used bmw question in article dirac physics purdue edu lovall bohr physics purdue edu daniel l lovall writes it shouldn t be that hard if you know much about digital electronics if the counter is made with standard ttl chips all you should need to do is find the chip s used for counting figure out what mileage you want to put in and preset it but wiring the preset pins directly to low high you d also have to know what the conventions are for low and high it might be a little more involved than this but it shouldn t be beyond someone with a bsee or bs eet all the display does is convert what the counter chips say into digits using a translation table stored in rom nobody is using discrete ic s to do these functions anymore if at all i doubt any of the motor electronics had any to start with much less ttl i can almost guarantee that it ll a fruitless attempt to figure out how bmw does it without breaking anything and invalidating any warranty on the car if you re lucky you d still be able to start the car
rec.autos	re warning please read tobias convex com allen tobias writes in article apr virginia edu ejv j virginia edu erik velapoldi writes this happened about a year ago on the washington dc beltway snot nosed drunken kids decided it would be really cool to throw huge rocks down on cars from an overpass four or five cars were hit there were several serious injuries and sadly a small girl sitting in the front seat of one of them was struck in the head by one of the larger rocks i don t recall if she made it but i think she was comatose for a month or so and doctors weren t holding out hope that she d live the girl s ok actually and she recovered well enough to go home i don t know if she has any permanent damage though just in case anybody was concerned what the hell is happening to this great country of ours i can see boyhood pranks of peeing off of bridges and such but pound rocks has our society really stooped this low erik velapold if people start forcing others to take responsibility for their actions things like this wouldn t happen untill we stop blaming outside causes and start blaming the criminals we will continue to let things like this happen chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu neil peart c quick to judge quick to anger slow to understand ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand
rec.autos	viper last night i had a dream that my dad bought a viper i took it out for a test drive without his knowledge and had to push it all the way home just to avoid a ticket wierd dream i wonder what it means roy
rec.autos	re warning please read in article neilson apr seoul mpr ca neilson seoul mpr ca robert neilson writes sorry for the auto content but that is why low abiding citizens should have the power to protect themselves and their property using deadly force if necessary anywhere a threat is imminent steve heracleous you do have the power steve you can do it why don t you why don t you go shoot some kids who are tossing rocks onto cars make sure you do a good job though don t miss cause like they have big rocks and take it from me those kids are mean as a stong self defense advocate you re statement does littel but irk me of course shooting someone because they throw a rock at your car is out of the question but what if they disabled your car with their rock and then wanted to come kill rape rob beat or otherwise harm you your wife kids i think you would like the power to defend yourself in this situation wouldn t you or is it that you value the lives of such rock throwers more than your own or those of your family don t think it couldn t happen to you from the sounds of it here it has happened to a few people please do not misunderstand the only justification for using deadly force on someone is that if you don t it will mean your own death or grave bodily harm i am far far away from supporting vilante justice or anything like that oh and if you mean to be funny please add the appropriate followups to talk politics guns please we re getting a bit off track here steve syck syck miller cs uwm edu
rec.autos	re warning please read and in san francisco recently some of our finest examples of humanity poured oil over a road so that vehicles going uphill would suddnely become immobile and then they would walk right up to the vehicles and make their demands known mark barnes system engineer insert standard disclaimers here sunsoft corporate technical escalations i speak for myself an individual menlo park ca usa not for the company for which i work barnesm vavau corp sun com
rec.autos	re auto air conditioning without freon in article apr ns cc lehigh edu amh ns cc lehigh edu alois m himsl writes yes i have the same questions what makes me upset is that r costs are skyrocketing and in fact can t be bought anymore in my area also this is yet another way mechanics and dealers can rip off customers also i was reading that the new refrigerant is not compatible with the r system and that it would cost upto a to retrofit a car with the old r system although it is important to consider the environment i think the sudden ban is a slap in the face for the consumer why is it that the consumer should have to pay for the retrofit the auto companies should have seen this coming also why is it that the governments of the world were so quick in banning freon use and yet so slow in banning gasoline in my opinion gasoline is just as hazardous as anything else why can t they start proposing bans on this and switch to natural gas or electric the technology is there hopefully some chemist will come up with another alternative coolant that will be compatible with the old system al h several chemists already have come up with several substitutes for r you don t hear about them because the mobile air conditioning society macs that is the people who stand to rake in that to per retrofit per automobile have mounted an organized campaign to squash those r substitutes out of existence if not ban them altogether on very shaky technical grounds at best on outright lies at worst does this piss you off yes write a letter to your congressman to your senator to the president to the epa and to the dot and complain later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.autos	re carb cleaners do they work performance carb rebuild in article apr slcs slb com dcd se houston geoquest slb com dan day writes in article c fyt jby cpsc ucalgary ca schaffer cpsc ucalgary ca doug schaffer writes how hard is a carb rebuild for moderately experienced backyard mechanic i ve done my clutch and miscellaneous little engine fixes the hardest part is usually getting the darned thing off the intake manifold rebuilding a carb is fun if you re into things with lots of little parts i used to rebuild them for all my friends cars in high school so it doesn t take a phd buy a carb rebuilding kit from an auto supply store buy a gallon of the best carb cleaning solvent you can find do they still make tyme as a rule of thumb buy the one with the scariest warning labels put it into a metal bucket make yourself a dipping can by punching holes in the bottom of a coffee can and attaching a wire handle to it if the carb cleaner doesn t strip the paint right off the coffee can you re not using the right stuff use the can to soak the little stuff and just hang the big parts from a coat hanger wash them off with a garden hose wipe off excess water with paper towels and air dry then remember where all the little parts go follow the rebuild kit s instructions concerning float height choke tension etc bolt it back on the engine and admire the super clean carb on the filthy engine heed this man s warnings if you get carb cleaner this strong on your hands your hands will be eaten away not pretty hence the dipping can method later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.autos	re changing oil by self why crawl under the car at all i have a machine i got for my boat that pulls the oil out under suction through the dip stick tube it does an excellent job and by moving the suction tube around you can get more old oil out than by using the drain plug i think i paid at e b marine the oil goes into a steel gal can wait until it cools and decant into your favorite device i use soft drink bottles easy to take them down to the local oil recycle center forza
rec.autos	re electronic odometers was used bmw question in article dirac physics purdue edu lovall bohr physics purdue edu daniel l lovall writes in article conradie firga sun ac za conradie firga sun ac za gerrit conradie writes however if i were to design a bmw s electronics i will use a counter to count the number of times the car passed million miles or whatever and store it in the car computer s memory this could be read when doing a diagnostics test ditto for the date of the odometer as easy as this is i don t know why manafucturers don t do it don t they to prevent illegal odometer tampering but as a previous writer said it will in any case take aeons to reset an odometer mechanic or electronic by simulating a driving car it will be easier to reprogram it how i don t know it shouldn t be that hard if you know much about digital electronics if the counter is made with standard ttl chips all you should need to do is find the chip s used for counting figure out what mileage you want to put in and preset it but wiring the preset pins directly to low high you d also have to know what the conventions are for low and high it might be a little more involved than this but it shouldn t be beyond someone with a bsee or bs eet all the display does is convert what the counter chips say into digits using a translation table stored in rom selah dan but those chips are probably inside a custom chip to make it smaller and use less power and the preset data pins are not going to be available it would probably not be ttl but might be cmos wider operating voltage range not that the tecnology would make much difference plus the custom chip would probably be potted encapsulated with epoxy good luck garyl any shark that gets to be or feet long with big teeth can be considered dangerous shark bowl
rec.autos	re jeep wrangler opini in article qht einnjdf hp col col hp com tvervaek col hp com tom vervaeke writes i have had two wranglers and still have the second right now it s a wrangler base model with the big i l engine hard top no power steering or air conditioning runs like a top has about k on it has never been in the shop i can change my own oil nice tall vehicle i can lube it myself fittings i occasionally take it to jiffy lube to check the differentials and do the oil change there my previous wrangler had nary a problem either here in colorado there more jeeps than bmw s mercedes volvos and the like together in fact jeep has been called the colorado car for a while they hold their value well and are very easy to resell mine cost right around k new of course i didn t blow money on an islander sahara or renegade which i have a wrangler sahara and paid new including the rebate are just wranglers with fancy inside stuff after driving a cj for years that fancy stuff is pretty nice the cars are primitive ride like a dump truck etc but if you live in an area that gets around of snow per winter you d have one too they ll go anywhere with a winch and are easy to get parts for the i like my wrangler but when doing some serious off roading it can t keep up with a cj because of ground clearance and limited suspension travel i do have a winch and would like to get an arb air locker in the future l engine puts out hp and gets around mpg not bad i love the just my experience i m sure there are bad ones out there but that goes for any make and model don graham
rec.autos	re too fast in article qkon re armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes stuff about autobahn and safety of sho at speed deleted the mustang is essentially the same deal as the sho a big power the mustang is a much worse case of design irresponsibility than the sho plant stuck in a mid size sedan with almost no other modifications i have real life experience with the mustang it handles like a brick except when you re invoking oversteer of course something i its hard to predicatbaly drift a stock mustang because of the suspension personally avoid doing on the highway and stopping power is inadequate even from mph lots of accelleration but the rest of the car is not up to par yes when i think mustang i think school bus f motor in my mind the mustang should be fitted with a speed limiter at or so it just isn t safe check out your local junkyard mustangs outnumber other cars by a proportion way in excess of sales in junkyards i find it astonishing the cu or somesuchlike has not jumped on the mustang for poor brakes in relation to power ford should at least standardize on the svo rear brakes for all s i picked the porsche example because they are designed with speed in mind it didn t have to be the it could have been the much cheaper or one of several mercedes or audi models all of these cars are fairly expensive but so are the parts that make them drivable at high speed this should be elementary there are a few things to keep in mind about europe since you brought it up my autobahn knowledge is admittedly second hand but i believe the following to be true drivers are much better disciplined in europe than they are here true of northern europe latin countries are something else the roads comprising the autobahn are much better designed than kindof true remember they were build by adolf in the s they are here and usually include animal fences this makes them far more predictable than most us highways yes not all of europe is the autobahn most places in europe have autobahn is the german word for freeway other countries have different names for loose equivalents autostrada autoroute motorway etc speed limits that aren t out of line with what we used to have in the us if my friends weren t lying to me they re typically not much higher than km h europe did seem on the brink of a kmh limit it hasn t passed as far as i know typical speeds in western europe are much higher than the us law enforcement is negligible in my experience comapred to the us as there is no revenue enhancement motivation the things you really notice are the higher speed differentials and the more professional attitude to driving you just never see two cars running parallel at mph oblivious to all around them i strongly suspect you won t find a lot of rabbit owners doing mph nearly km h on the autobahn but i could be wrong some people you re wrong gti s go this fast just kind of noisy not the ideal autobahn car a lot of times you see cars being driven with the drivers foot on the floor how do i know when you re not making any ground on the identical car in front of you have no respect for their own lives if something happens at you re dead but the same goes for much over driving at high speed forces you to concentrate i feel much safer driving on the autobahn than in typical us traffic because most people seem to be awake i ve never seen any driver reading a book on an autobahn i see it all too often in the us craig it just doesn t seem fast after minutes or so of aclimation everybody drives that fast no big deal craig you certainly haven t convinced me of course not speeding is bad speeding is illegal i will not speed i love big brother you had your mind made up already if you think so you sure don t pay attention to my postings jim frost jimf centerline com
rec.autos	re instead of a saturn sc what in ifn spo iv a nz andrew cmu edu jr q andrew cmu edu jason m roth writes r t had an article on cars of the sc ilk and they liked the civic ex the escort gt and the mx best of all and the sc was way down the list except for braking i just looked at that article first of all this summary is inaccurate of cars the sc was th right behind these mentioned and the suzuki swift as has been pointed out it was a semi silly comparison the saturn was at least cheaper than the mx and escort admittedly negligible but an issue and less than the honda the stated goal was a base under k the honda was over while the sc at the same price was excluded in other words they let the best honda play but not the best saturn note that the saturn did beat the k i dont know about the car comparison but as far as the price goes rest assured that the street prices for the mx and escort and maybe even the honda will be lesser than that of the saturn you re talking about all price comparisons i ve seen are based on msrp and of course the saturn dealer will sell the car for sticker price whereas the others will do it way below sticker srihari
rec.autos	re warning please read larose austin cs utk edu brian larose writes this just a warning to everybody on the net watch out for folks standing next to the road or on overpasses they can cause serious harm to you and your car just a cliff notes version of my story follows pm last night i was travelling on the interstate here in knoxville i was taking an offramp exit to another interstate and my wife suddenly screamed and something large hit the side of my truck we slowed down but after looking back to see the vandals standing there we drove on to the police station she did get a good look at the guy and saw him cock his arm with something the size of a cinderblock but i never saw him we are very lucky the truck sits up high on the road if it would have hit her window it would have killed her the police are looking for the guy but in all likelyhood he is gone i am a very good driver knock on wood but it was night time and i never saw the guy the police said they thought the motive was to hit the car have us stop to check out the damage and then jump us and take the truck please be aware of folks and for your own good please don t stop peace brian larose larose cs utk edu essary rd knoxville tn as long as we re on the subject several years ago myself and two others were riding in the front of a toyota pickup heading south on interstate north of seattle wa someone threw a rock of an overpass and hit our windshield not by accident i m sure it was impossible to get up to the overpass quickly to see who did it we figured it was kids reported it and left a couple of years ago it happend again and killed a guy at my company he was in his mid fourties and left behind a wife and children turned out there was a reformatory for juviniles a few blocks away they caught the year old that did it they put a cover over the overpass what else could they do i don t think i ll over forget this story neil williams boeing computer services bellevue wa
rec.autos	subaru svx good deal hi netters my friend is seriously thinking of getting the subaru svx there is a local dealer here in seattle selling them for with touring package that s off from msrp he thinks it s a very good deal and i think so too since he knows i have access to the net he would like to get anyone s opinion about this car especially in the area of reliability and maintenanability please send e mail to me as my friend doesn t have access to the net my opinion about this car is you get a lot for auto everything tranny climate control windows locks folddow rear seet full wheel drive fast top spped heavy lb thanks in advacne tom locke work boeing computer services e mail toml voodoo boeing com p o box m s k or uunet bcstec voodoo toml seattle wa
rec.autos	re open letter to nissan really station wagon this week s autoweek talks about how wagons are getting back in vogue i wouldn t mind an audi s wagon great stealth value but you ll never catch me dead in a minivan eliot
rec.autos	re warning please read in article qke b mc spool mu edu jason studsys mscs mu edu jason hanson writes from article apr virginia edu by ejv j virginia edu erik velapoldi this happened about a year ago on the washington dc beltway snot nosed drunken kids decided it would be really cool to throw huge rocks down on cars from an overpass four or five cars were hit there were several serious injuries and sadly about a year ago some kids tossed a rock off an overpass on i near eau claire wisconsin and it killed the driver below i believe he was a schoolteacher from minnesota here in houston a couple years ago a young pregnant woman was killed in a similar manner
rec.autos	re car buying story was christ another dealer service scam in article apr newsgate sps mot com rapw email sps mot com writes their problem i wasn t giving them any more money the finance guy then brought in the manager on duty who proceeded to give me a hard time i reminded him that i was the customer and i didn t think i should be treated like that and that if he didn t back off he could forget the whole deal he made some smart remark so i told him where he could stick it snatched back my check and left needless to say they were not pleased by the turn of events that s nothing when a friend of mine went shopping for a small sedan a few years ago she brought me along as a token male so the salespeople wouldn t give her the bimbo treatment her first choice was a mazda and second choice was a nissan sentra we went to a mazda dealership and described what we wanted we started negotiating on the price and the salesdroid kept playing the let me run this price by the sales manager after playing the good salesman bad salesman game we finally told him that if he didn t have the authority to negotiate a price perhaps we should be speaking directly to someone who did he brought in the sales manager who proceeded to dick us around with every trick in the book read remar sutton s don t get taken every time for a list finally after playing a few more rounds of you ll have to work with us on this price also known as each time you come up a thousand dollars we ll come down ten the salesmanager gave a signal to his two sales cronies stood up and said well we can t come down any more so i guess we can t help you and they trouped out of the room leaving us sitting in the salesman s office all by ourselves hmm i d read that sleazy salesmen sometimes bug their own offices so they can leave and listen in on couples discussing the sales offer and i mentioned this aloud to my friend while we were sitting there wondering why they would leave us in the office instead of showing us to the door for lack of anything better to do i picked up the phone on the desk and called another mazda dealership asked for a salesman and began discussing what kind of price they would consider a few sentences into the conversation mr salesmanager broke into the line and began telling me how rude he thought it was that i would call another dealership from his phone i said that since he d announced that our business was over he shouldn t care and every time i tried to talk to the other sales guy the sales manager would drown out our voices with his own how did he know that i was using the phone anyway finally i hung up and we headed out of the showroom sales manager and cronies come out of a little unmarked room and he begins to berate us again we say that we won t bother him anymore we re going next door to the nissan dealership then comes the part i wish i could have videotaped as we go out the front door the sales manager shouts across the entire showroom customers and all go ahead you deserve to buy a nissan so my friend bought a sentra just so the guilty won t go unpunished i ll mention that the sales manager s name was gary tusone from his manner his refusal to come down to a reasonable price and his anger at the end my guess is that he had bet our original salesman who was a young novice that he d be able to get at least x dollars out of us and he was steamed that we wouldn t fall for his slimy tricks
rec.autos	re lh workmanship i was following an example of the lh the other day and noticed the fit between the tunk lid and the rear bumper the gap was quite small on the left side but much larger on the right blech mark
rec.autos	re too fast in apr cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes in article qg v ju umcc umcc umich edu mhartman umcc umcc umich edu mark hartman writes i don t know why you are complaining about alot of us have cars that can easily top that most that go are built to do it also and can handle the speed why complain and just join in on the fast fun can i ask have any of you been at the speed of its a rush driving in a straight line is fine you very soon become aclimated to it it s only a rush when there are corners that you don t think you can make on a clear autobahn is nothing in the u s of people and all judges would label you insane and it is difficult to persuade people otherwise sure but the surface condition of most good autobahns is far better than most of the roads here a dip in the asphalt that you test your shocks on at will kill you at don t get me wrong i love to drive quickly and they say my probe will do but that s more than i ve ever tried in it cause there isn t a decent enough piece of road hereabouts craig mark hartman mhartman umcc umcc umich edu kalamazoo mi bk cleveland freenet edu i m naked in the school sleepyhead bob
rec.autos	old license plates wanted hi me and my roomate are going to redecorate the living room and we thought it would be a cool idea to have a license plate from every state in the us and then from whereever else we could find like canada mexixo even some european ones if anyone has any ideas or knows someone that could help us out please let me know the more recent the better but anything would be nice either that or if you have an old plate hanging around hint hint kev wanderer camelot bradley edu kevin c murphy west main street peoria il
rec.autos	re mgbs and the real world in article apr hasler ascom ch kevinh hasler ascom ch writes oh yeah i had a gt mini and even before i did anything to it it could leave an mgb standing anywhere except perhaps on a long straight motorway run at people who bought mgb s bought them because they were an open topped sportscar and embodied what people thought they should for an old fashioned traditional brit sportscar not because they were great at anything pretty much like the people who buy the mazda mx miata today small fun and you can fool yourself and a lot of other people that you have the performance of many far superior and much more expensive performnace cars derek tearne derek nezsdc icl co nz fujitsu new zealand some of the more aware dinosaurs were worried about the environmental consequences of an accident with the new iridium enriched fusion reactor if it goes off only the cockroaches and mammals will survive they said
rec.autos	re dumbest driver action in c dq n ub news cso uiuc edu mwbg uxa cso uiuc edu mark wayne blunier writes jimf centerline com jim frost writes i wish i had the figures with me to back me up but i recall statistics showing that women tended to have more accidents than men but the damage was generally quite minor men had fewer but far more expensive accidents the rate of total vehicle destruction was significantly higher for men than women particularly in the younger male age groups imho social considerations are probably the strongest influence here possibly more so than any difference between the sexes social influences often affect the type of car that s bought and the situations the car is used in and the type of car and driving situations have a major effect on accident risk thus if society expects you to buy a mustang and race it on the street you re more likely to do it and our society expects that of males more than females i agree with some of your social influences such as driving conditions but lets get real here guys don t drag race becuase there expected too we do it becuase its fun and we find out whose car is faster guys drive different than women becuase there men when a driver is driving unusually i can usually figure out if it is a male or female driver without looking at the driver social influences may give a person more reason to buy a vehicle that has a certain amount of character which he or she would like associated with do you change your driving habits when no one is around sheesh i don t know what kind of women they have where you guys live but there are some ladies here who will blow your doors off or at least they will try to but we just can t let the youngsters get too uppity with us old folks my mark b jim frost jimf centerline com bob
rec.autos	re lh workmanship in article apr walter bellcore com jchen ctt bellcore com writes i just visited the ny auto show and saw two lh cars on the floor eagle vision and dodge intrepid at a competitive price unfortunately the workmanship is quite disappointing on both cars the rubber seals around the window and door fell off it turns out the seals are just big grooved rubber band it goes on just by pressing through a single data point you can draw any line you want dr s bart childs professor texas a m dept of computer science both my pastor s late model corolla and my father s stanza have demonstrated the falling door seals problem daryl biberdorf n gjm d biberdorf tamu edu sola gratia sola fide sola scriptura
rec.autos	honda civic i d like to converse with anyone who has purchased a honda civic about their experience i m new to the car buying game and would like to know what price i can expect to pay for a sedan after bargaining thanks in advance ellen
rec.autos	heard of these south bay shops i need to bring on my vw corrado for body work i got hit i was wondering if anyone has heard of any of these south bay body shops akins collision center of santa clara on reed st auto west collision in san jose los gatos acura royal auto body in sunnyvale thanks w
rec.autos	re changing oil by self rist another dealer service scam in article qk m pbe news ysu edu ak yfn ysu edu john r daker writes i was worried about someone stealing my oil once also i finally decided to just have my drain plug welded shut it works great i figure that when i add three or four quarts when the oil light comes on every month or so that it s just as good or better than the old wives tale of changing the oil and filter every miles works for me i must say i did the same thing to my drain plug for the same reasons i was wondering how you filled your crankcase though as i welded my hood shut also out of fear that somebody might steal my air filter oh come on silly all you have to do is cut a hole in your hood and put a tube there so you can get to the oil fill hole what do you think all those big air intake things are for on those hot rod cars they re just for looks only little does anyone know they provide access to the oil fill hole well over where we live we have problems with vandals stealing people s wheels those locking nuts didn t stop them so to be safe and sure i welded the lug nuts to my wheels together it works serious i haven t had my wheels stolen yet
rec.autos	re warning please read in article qh innfl cs utk edu larose austin cs utk edu brian larose writes this just a warning to everybody on the net watch out for folks standing next to the road or on overpasses they can cause serious harm to you and your car just a cliff notes version of my story follows pm last night i was travelling on the interstate here in knoxville i was taking an offramp exit to another interstate and my wife suddenly screamed and something large hit the side of my truck we slowed down but after looking back to see the vandals standing there we drove on to the police station she did get a good look at the guy and saw him cock his arm with something the size of a cinderblock but i never saw him we are very lucky the truck sits up high on the road if it would have hit her window it would have killed her the police are looking for the guy but in all likelyhood he is gone stuff deleted i am sorry to report that in southern california it was a sick sport for a while to drop concrete blocks from the overpasses onto the freeway several persons were killed when said blocks came through their windshields many overpass bridges are now fenced and they have made it illegal to loiter on such bridges as if that would stop such people yet many bridges are not fenced i always look up at a bridge while i still have time to take evasive action even though this sport has not reached us here in fresno greg lewis csufresno edu photojournalism sequence department of journalism csu fresno fresno ca
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time in article c hhgm rm constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison writes in article apr slcs slb com dcd se houston geoquest slb com dan day writes in article q innb ctron news ctron com smith ctron com writes it s a big aftermarket business almost no cars come from the factory with vynal any more and any fake convertible job definitely came from some aftermarket place what amazes me is how much people are willing to pay for bad taste how about those really ugly fake wheel compartments stuck onto the trunk or side or both sides of some tacky luxury cars some of em aren t fake if you re talking about the continental kit named after the lincoln continental the first car to sport one i personally would love to have a t bird with a continental kit and the supercharged v that is one of the most beautiful cars ever built imho james the continental may have been the first modern era auto to mount the spare on the rear of the car but it was hardly the first car to sport one various mounting techniques for rear mounting the spare were quite common in early automobiles both us and foreign ken franklin they say there s a heaven for people who wait ama and some say it s better but i say it ain t gwrra i d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints dod the sinners are lots more fun y know only the good die young
rec.autos	re car buying story was christ another dealer service scam while not exactly a service incident i had a similar experience recently when i bought a new truck i had picked out the vehicle i wanted and after a little haggling we agreed on a price i wrote them a check for the down payment plus tax and license and told them i d be back that evening to pick up the truck when i returned i had to wait about an hour before the finance guy could get to me when i finally got in there everything went smoothly until he started adding up the numbers he then discovered that they had miscalculated the tax license by about this seems to be a popular scam with dealers last month my brother bought a new audi series quatro from a local dealer they came back with the final price tax and all and he added it up for himself there happened to be an extra tagged on under the tax part he pointed out their error and asked them to re think their addition they came back with the right price the next time
rec.autos	re how is cizeta v t doing in article crh regent e technik tu muenchen de crh regent e technik tu muenchen dbp de christian huebner writes i can remember reading a track competition in some car magazine which featured the testarossa the diablo and the v t the result was about the same i would have expected the cizeta was not only the slowest of the three but also dropped out halfway during it s test laps because of smoking brakes for a sportscar it showed ridiculous performance hm i find this hard to believe v t weights about the same as the red head but it has hell lot more horse power perhaps it s due to pre production glitches well to me it still got the most imposing styling among all the sports cars i have seen bye chris crh regent e technik tu muenchen de ferrari f best sportscar ever built personally i don t like cars that rely on turbo power i guess everyone has their favorite car
rec.autos	new break pads exhausts after k km k mi on maxima hi maybe someone can help me here i am looking to buy this nissan maxima gxe for cdn right now the car has km or about miles on it a typical mileage for cars seem to be about km or about k mi the seller just informed me that when he brought the car in for certification he was told that the front break pads and the exhausts had to be replaced to meet the legal standards he said he will replace the components before selling the car to me being copmletely ignorant to the technical stuff on cars i don t know what this could mean is k km about the time typical for replacing the above mentioned items or is this an indication that the car was abused would other things break down or have to be replaced soon the seller told me that he used the car on the highway a lot but i don t know how to verify this i ve seen the paint chipped away in tiny dots in the front edge of the hood though although the maxima is an excellent car and the car is very clean and well kept it s currently out of warranty a similarly priced accord with k km will have years or k km worth of warranty left and i don t want to worry about paying for any repair bills but i also need a car for people when will the new maxima come out by the way i would very much appreciate your input in this please reply by e mail preferred or post in this newsgroup thanks ryan ryan kim university of toronto eecg computer graphics rkim eecg toronto edu do not weave between traffic cones at road works from the new british highway code toronto star april
rec.autos	re instead of a saturn sc what srihari cirrus com srihari shoroff writes in ifn spo iv a nz andrew cmu edu jr q andrew cmu edu jason m roth writes r t had an article on cars of the sc ilk and they liked the civic ex the escort gt and the mx best of all and the sc was way down the list except for braking i just looked at that article first of all this summary is inaccurate of cars the sc was th right behind these mentioned and the suzuki swift as has been pointed out it was a semi silly comparison the saturn was at least cheaper than the mx and escort admittedly negligible but an issue and less than the honda the stated goal was a base under k the honda was over while the sc at the same price was excluded in other words they let the best honda play but not the best saturn note that the saturn did beat the k i dont know about the car comparison but as far as the price goes rest assured that the street prices for the mx and escort and maybe even the honda will be lesser than that of the saturn you re talking about all price comparisons i ve seen are based on msrp and of course the saturn dealer will sell the car for sticker price whereas the others will do it way below sticker srihari i d hate to rehash an old thread but would someone kindly quote a prices that a dealer quotes for a civic ex and escort gt also i m a assuming that the mx was the v so go ahead and look that up too if someone has one of those yearly buyers guides that give a low quote price please quote them too then find the the sc base price thanks chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu neil peart c quick to judge quick to anger slow to understand ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand
rec.autos	re lh workmanship in article ql inn q tamsun tamu edu dlb tamuts tamu edu daryl biberdorf writes in article apr walter bellcore com jchen ctt bellcore com writes i just visited the ny auto show and saw two lh cars on the floor eagle vision and dodge intrepid at a competitive price unfortunately the workmanship is quite disappointing on both cars the rubber seals around the window and door fell off it turns out the seals are just big grooved rubber band it goes on just by pressing through a single data point you can draw any line you want dr s bart childs professor texas a m dept of computer science wrong i got two points which were the sample space on the show floor by the previous quote i guess i may drow a determinstic line both my pastor s late model corolla and my father s stanza have demonstrated the falling door seals problem as unfair as it may seem the difference between chrysler and toyota is that chrysler needs to prove that it can build quality cars toyota can afford make a few small mistakes without hurting the image after all door seal failing on a year old stanza is not comparable to the same problem on a brand new intreprid jason chen
rec.autos	re open letter to nissan really station wagon in article apr engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes this week s autoweek talks about how wagons are getting back in vogue i wouldn t mind an audi s wagon great stealth value but you ll never catch me dead in a minivan even a minivan based on viper running gear teddy p s i think the audi s gets a liter v next year
rec.autos	re do trains busses have radar in article apr bronco fnal gov colombo bronco fnal gov rick open vms ever colombo writes i don t know about trains but i ve saw a sign on the back of a greyhound bus that warns you that your radar detector may be set off it doesn t explain why but it does set off my radar detector because greyhound has apparently gotten around to installing their radar collision prevention system they use radar to monitor how close other vehicles are and how fast their relative speeds are and signals a warning to the driver if they re coming up on something too fast or are getting too close this is all i remember from the news reports a few months back at the time they were only talking about the possibility of installing the system they didn t mention how it worked in bumper to bumper traffic or how it discriminated between a camaro approaching at mph and ye olde bridge support in the median being approached at mph on a curve i do recall something about progressive stages of warnings from flashing lights to audible warnings ie it goes from a red too close light to hysterically screaming we re all going to die james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	re mgbs and the real world derek nezsdc icl co nz derek tearne writes people who bought mgb s bought them because they were an open topped sportscar and embodied what people thought they should for an old fashioned traditional brit sportscar not because they were great at anything pretty much like the people who buy the mazda mx miata today small fun and you can fool yourself and a lot of other people that you have the performance of many far superior and much more expensive performnace cars i have been for a fairly hard run in an mx what they lack in power they surely make up for in handling great for back streets with heaps of corners they are a fairly light car with a low center of gravity and a quite free revving dohc engine a fun car have you driven a turbo converted mx now they are starting to perform i ve often thought a mazda rotary would go well in the xm too anyone done it regards scott scott fisher scott psy uwa oz au ph aus perth local n department of psychology w e university of western australia perth s e s nedlands perth w a v joy is a jaguar xj with a flat battery a blown oil seal and an unsympathetic wife km outside of a small remote town am on a cold wet winters morning
rec.autos	re warning please read in article apr icf hrb com jek icf hrb com joe karolchik writes i deleted your name because i don t want to sound accusative in my remark on another occasion on my way from texas to florida i had stopped in a small motel for the night in a small town somewhere in florida about youths were disturbing my car setting off the alarm and challenging me to come out when i and another tenant walked out with a magnum and a automatic respectively they vanished needless to say i immediately packed up and left watch out for car jacking and staged accidents they can be deadly i m not going to argue the issue of carrying weapons but i would ask you if you would have thought seriously about shooting a kid for setting off your alarm i can think of worse things in the world glad you got out of there before they did anything to give you a reason to fire your gun if i hear someone screwing with my car ie setting off the alarm and taunting me to come out you can be damn sure that my colt delta elite will also be coming with me it s not the screwing with the car that d get them shot it s the potential physical danger if they re taunting like that it s very possible that they also intend to rob me and or do other physically harmful things if they re just screwing around no harm done if they re bent on mayhem they will receive the cure for their lead deficiency a gr injection fps there s no telling what today s violent criminals will do death may be the most pleasant outcome james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	re new break pads exhausts after k km k mi on maxima in article apr jarvis csri toronto edu rkim eecg toronto edu ryan kim writes hi maybe someone can help me here i am looking to buy this nissan maxima gxe for cdn right now so its an automatic don t know if us spec cdn spec for maximas the car has km or about miles on it a typical mileage for cars seem to be about km or about k mi the seller just informed me that when he brought the car in for certification he was told that the front break pads and the exhausts had to be replaced to meet the legal standards he said he will replace the components before selling the car to me being copmletely ignorant to the technical stuff on cars i don t know what this could mean is k km about the time typical for replacing the above mentioned items or is this an indication that the car was abused if it is the first set of brake pads on front then this is fine my car eats a set every k miles or so the fact that he is replacing the muffler too is also ok would other things break down or have to be replaced soon the mileage is fairly low but typical fwd stuff is cv joints check the maintenance records with the manufacturers requirements for valve adjustments timing belt changes and so on the k mile service is often expensive so make sure he has done everything the seller told me that he used the car on the highway a lot but i don t know how to verify this i ve seen the paint chipped away in tiny dots in the front edge of the hood though well this is one of the commonly cited methods for identifying a car with highway miles might check the gas pedal wear too ask him how many sets of tires he has been through a highway car might have squeezed by on sets a hard driven car sets although the maxima is an excellent car and the car is very clean and well kept it s currently out of warranty a similarly priced accord with k km will have years or k km worth of warranty left and i don t want to worry about paying for any repair bills well the maxima should be pretty reliable but if its out of warranty you should get it checked out by someone knowledgeable first stuff for japanese cars can be expensive but i also need a car for people when will the new maxima come out by the way model year i believe i would very much appreciate your input in this please reply by e mail preferred or post in this newsgroup craig thanks ryan ryan kim university of toronto eecg computer graphics rkim eecg toronto edu do not weave between traffic cones at road works from the new british highway code toronto star april
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time in article apr cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes in article c jnk jkt news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes wasn t the original intent of the reverse lights for the driver so he could see where he was backing up although reverse lights on the sides no reverse lights are to warn others that you are backing up they aren t bright enough to typically see by without the brake and tail lights i don t know where you live but i couldn t get out of my driveway at night without reverse lights as someone said out in the country you notice neat little things like stars and the difference between day and night at night around my house which is amongst a forest of rather tall oaks it is dark except for nights with full moons reverse lights illuminate my path very well when backing up i greatly prefer cars with them to cars without operational reverse lights james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	re how is cizeta v t doing cs sbw sdcc ucsd edu cs sbw writes does anyone know what happpened to the venerable v t has claudio done any enhancement to it are there any pictures of this beast i can ftp down somewhere thanks p s better seen any rc model of this beauty autoweek had an article about the car within the past six weeks it was the issue with the diablo vt awd on the cover naturally i don t remember the date of the issue offhand but i can check it if anyone is interested aamir qazi aamir qazi qazi csd csd uwm edu why should i care i d rather watch drying paint
rec.autos	re bmw series for from article eabu dialin slip nts uci edu by eabu orion oac uci edu alvin is there going to be a bmw in could be isn t the liter six supposed to be enlarged to liters in the not too distant future aamir qazi aamir qazi qazi csd csd uwm edu why should i care i d rather watch drying paint
rec.autos	re instead of a saturn sc what from article qkkl innbvo hp col col hp com by theckel col hp com tim heckel for those that are interested i got my fully optioned air abs sunroof se r in september for in sacramento ca it was one of the st s sold few of the dealers had any no local dealer had an abs equipped se r i went straight to the fleet manager at the dealership i liked told him what i wanted made him aware that i knew what his price should be he called me back with exactly what i wanted from a dealer mi away i took delivery the next day when i was selling nissans last summer i sold a se r in early august when its supply was getting quite scarce the car was black with abs value option pkg and power moonroof i sold it for plus tax naturally my manager didn t really care to sell one of the most desirable se r s for virtually no profit to the best of my knowledge aamir qazi aamir qazi qazi csd csd uwm edu why should i care i d rather watch drying paint
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time no reverse lights are to warn others that you are backing up they aren t bright enough to typically see by without the brake and tail lights craig perhaps instead of this silly argument about what backup lights are for couldn t we agree that they serve the dual purpose of letting people behind your car know that you have it in reverse and that they can also light up the area behind your car while you re backing up so you can see backup lamps on current models are much brighter than they used to be on older cars those on my taurus wagon are quite bright enough to illuminate a good area behind the car and they re much brighter than those on my earlier cars from the s and s insofar as vettes having side backup lights look at a or model or perhaps a year or two earlier too and you ll see red side marker lamps and white side marker lamps both near the car s hindquarters those aren t just white reflectors harv
rec.autos	re station wagons was open letter to nissan in article apr leland stanford edu tedebear leland stanford edu theodore chen writes but you ll never catch me dead in a minivan even a minivan based on viper running gear hmmmm not sure since no such beast exists i can tell you another though you won t catch me dead in a gmc syclone or typhoon either bhp or not not even the fact that clint eastwood has one just my taste no rational reasons for it teddy p s i think the audi s gets a liter v next year car just tested the s wagon with banger and speed manual rave review except for servotronic audi is trying to recoup the development costs for the v and since the v is not selling well they are sticking it into the series cars neat marketing trick eh yeah a v v wouldn t be a bad idea as competition for the upcoming bimmer i would it maybe they can use a liter version to avoid conflicts with the v model then strip off all the luxo garbage let the s remain with the flared arches and fat tires to go fight with the m maybe turn up the boost a wee bit to bump bhp up to say or so while keeping the v with mercedes e style subtlety blah blah blah eliot
rec.autos	re mgbs and the real world in article qlg iu uniwa uwa oz au scott psy uwa oz au scott fisher writes have you driven a turbo converted mx now they are starting to perform i ve often thought a mazda rotary would go well in the xm too anyone done it no but somebody s dropped a ford v into the miata somewhat reminiscent of the shelby cobra the car s obviously not as nimble as before but it s supposed to have a near weight distribution and handle very well i d sure love to drive one teddy
rec.autos	re feedback requested on lowering mustang in article x xz b w w vllyoak resun com jp vllyoak resun com jeff perry writes i have found a kit advertised for lowering the front end of an early mustang installation envolves moving the upper a arm and installation of a wedge shaped spacer between the a arm and ball joint apparently shelby mustangs did a similair modification but left out the spacer i would be interested in feedback pro or con on such a modification i m no mustang head but don t the early ones have a simple strut suspension that is with no upper a arm just a strut going down to a lower control arm single bushing not an a arm with a tension compression rod locating it in the forward backward direction anyway simple strut suspensions like this can be lowered just by using shorter springs cutting the springs lowering the spring perch or shortening the strut below the perch in each of these cases the suspension geometry will suffer because the lower control arms will not be at the intended angle a spacer placed between control arm and the bottom of the strut roughly the height of the reduction will restore the suspension geometry imho the kit that includes the spacer is the only way to go ken ken r dye an optimist is a guy lachman technology inc chicago that has never had x much experience dye lachman com archy
rec.autos	re warning please read in article c h qz kya boi hp com wesf boi hp com wes fujii writes brian larose larose austin cs utk edu wrote i never saw the guy the police said they thought the motive was to hit the car have us stop to check out the damage and then jump us and take the truck please be aware of folks and for your own good please don t stop sad this sort of thing is on the rise across the country south florida is getting a lot of national tv coverage on the subject where vacationers are being attacked and some killed in schemes similar to this make that worldwide coverage i know numerous people who were planning holidays to the florida and have now chosen another non us destination you expect this sort of thing perhaps in third world countries but not the us kevinh hasler ascom ch
rec.autos	re sho and sc in article unisql uucp wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes in article chrissc qb d b netcom com chriss netcom com chris silvester writes wagon which i have heard is somehow slightly faster than the coupe wagon has an automatic it s slower could be due to the rear end ratio also usually automatics have different rear ends than manuals from my limited experience anyways david david w hwang m d university of michigan medical school wall street suite c telephone ann arbor michigan internet david ganglion ann arbor mi us
rec.autos	the kuebelwagen sorry for the mis spelling but i forgot how to spell it after my series of exams and no on hand reference here is it still possible to get those cute wwii vw jeep wanna be s a replica would be great i think tkh if i can convert a c to a c t i can do anything not
rec.autos	aussie needs info on car shows hi from australia i am a car enthusiast in australia i am particularly interested in american muscle cars of the s and s all makes amc ford chrysler mopar gm i will be in the usa for weeks from may nd to june chicago sun may thursday may denver friday may sunday may austin texas monday may friday may oklahoma city friday may monday may anaheim california tuesday may thursday may las vegas nevada friday may sunday may grand canion monday may tuesday june las angeles san diego and vicinity wednesday june sunday june june south lake tahoe cal sunday june wednesday june reno thursday june san fransisco thursday june sunday june i was wondering if anyone could send me any information of car shows swap meets drag meets model car shows etc during this period can anybody tell me when the pomona swap meet is on this year also any places to visit eg car museums private collections your collection etc any bit of information is appreciated i am also interested in finding some model cars scale models i am intersted in amc cars of particular interest is amx javelin scrambler rebel machine and others if you have any kits plastics diecast etc and are interested in selling them tell me i will be interested i can also send bring you models of australian high performance cars if you are interested please reply by email to johnt spri levels unisa edu au thanks john tsimbinos
rec.autos	aussie needs info on usa car shows swap meets hi from australia i am a car enthusiast in australia i am particularly interested in american muscle cars of the s and s all makes amc ford chrysler mopar gm i will be in the usa for weeks from may nd to june chicago sun may thursday may denver friday may sunday may austin texas monday may friday may oklahoma city friday may monday may anaheim california tuesday may thursday may las vegas nevada friday may sunday may grand canion monday may tuesday june las angeles san diego and vicinity wednesday june sunday june june south lake tahoe cal sunday june wednesday june reno thursday june san fransisco thursday june sunday june i was wondering if anyone could send me any information of car shows swap meets drag meets model car shows etc during this period can anybody tell me when the pomona swap meet is on this year also any places to visit eg car museums private collections your collection etc any bit of information is appreciated i am also interested in finding some model cars scale models i am intersted in amc cars of particular interest is amx javelin scrambler rebel machine and others if you have any kits plastics diecast etc and are interested in selling them tell me i will be interested i can also send bring you models of australian high performance cars if you are interested please reply by email to johnt spri levels unisa edu au thanks john tsimbinos
rec.autos	thunderbird i just bought a t bird and would like any info on a club in and around the the b c coast eric thomas
rec.autos	re warning please read in article apr hasler ascom ch kevinh hslrswi hasler ascom ch kevinh writes in article c h qz kya boi hp com wesf boi hp com wes fujii writes brian larose larose austin cs utk edu wrote i never saw the guy the police said they thought the motive was to hit the car have us stop to check out the damage and then jump us and take the truck please be aware of folks and for your own good please don t stop sad this sort of thing is on the rise across the country south florida is getting a lot of national tv coverage on the subject where vacationers are being attacked and some killed in schemes similar to this make that worldwide coverage i know numerous people who were planning holidays to the florida and have now chosen another non us destination you expect this sort of thing perhaps in third world countries but not the us in response to this and other articles that have been written on this subject i would like to say that it is not just a us problem in southern ontario last summer there were several instances along the where people mainly truckers were shot at from overpasses there are many sick people out there and it makes you wonder what the worlds coming to kevinh hasler ascom ch
rec.autos	re jeep wrangler opini in article db vu vlsi ee vill edu mobasser vu vlsi ee vill edu bijan mobasseri writes how do i square this with a respectable resale value easy if it s expensive to buy new it s gonna be expensive to buy used a patently false statement try this logic on an alfa in fact marketplace has a wonderufl mechanism to adjust the value of the cars that are overpriced by the manufacturer if it is expensive to buy new it is not necessarily expnesive to buy used in fact it could be real cheap to buy used depending what that car is of course note that i do not question your statements on the reliability of wrangler i have never owned one driven one or been in one i do love to have one though what i don t understand is why this apparent neglect of quality for so many years has not filtered down into the used market is jeep so intoxicating so irresistable and so seductive as to make its purchase a fatal attraction bijan yep they are popular vehicles you don t see a lot of previous model year ones sitting on dealer s lots for any lenghth of time after the new ones are out the things sell they are popular because they are popular and high priced new they are high price used very simple i knew they were overpriced when i bought it i knew they had a terrible reliability record when i bought it but i didn t expect anything like i got especially with a dealer network unable to repair it personal experience has quickly cured me of my infatuation with the machine dave
rec.autos	re too fast jimf centerline com jim frost writes there are a few things to keep in mind about europe since you brought it up my autobahn knowledge is admittedly second hand but i believe the following to be true my knowledge about driving in the u s is also second hand but i think i can correct your statements about our autobahn drivers are much better disciplined in europe than they are here oh yeah that would be paradise in fact you can forget it from all i ve heard from my u s relatives drivers esp here in germany are much more agg ressive but not disciplined one of my relatives a l a resident hired a car at the nuernberg airport and went about miles to our home he said then that he grew about year older during this ride and swore he d never drive a car in germany again this was in and he kept his promise the situation now is even worse as effect of the increased volume of traffic what you mean by better disciplined should perhaps be considered cautious due to fear when driving around here you always have to take into consideration that the majority of the other drivers absolutely relies on you they expect that nobody fails or sleeps many of them exploit this by driving as fast as their car can go of course only where that is allowed you might think dream on so any mistake you make is a very high risk to your health and if you re ex posed to such a situation from your very first day as a driver you learn to handle it or you lose that s the way i and most people i know experience our traffic situation whether you think this is pleasant or efficient is up to you i think we handle a very high volume of traffic and that at high speeds with modest compared to the volume and decreasing rates of lethal accidents otoh more and more people esp women dislike driving because they feel overtaxed and threatened and each accident is one accident too much the roads comprising the autobahn are much better designed than they are here and usually include animal fences this makes them far more predictable than most us highways better designed and maintained may be but animal fences are very rare auto bahnen and many other streets have guard rails i hope that s the right word a plank made from thick steel sheet fixed on uprights it s about feet high those guard rails are designed for keeping vehicles on the road smaller animals can crawl under the plank bigger ones can easily jump over it the point is that esp larger animals are very rare in germany they tend also to be very timid accidents caused by animals are a neglegible danger not all of europe is the autobahn most places in europe have speed limits that aren t out of line with what we used to have in the us if my friends weren t lying to me they re typically not much higher than km h you re right there are speed linits even on the major part of the autobahn but the attitude towards driving see above seems to be very similar to that in germany i ve been in france switzerland italy austria spain belgium the netherlands besides that you really can t rely on the residents abiding the local speed limits i ve got quite a lot of practise k miles and i m used to travel at mph fyi with a car even smaller than a rabbit but i consider driving on the highways round paris or milano really a thrill i strongly suspect you won t find a lot of rabbit owners doing mph nearly km h on the autobahn but i could be wrong sorry but you ll find quite a lot rabbit class car or even smaller mine is a peugeot owners going that fast small cars with much hp are very hip over here and most people buying such cars aren t afraid to let them run some people have no respect for their own lives i disagree the size or weight of a car is rather irrelevant formula cars weigh less than kg and the drivers have a chance to survive accidents at mph or higher otoh when crashing against a solid object at mph it makes no difference whether you sit in a porsche a mercedes a tank or on a bicycle your re dead bye stefan stefan dalibor dalibor immd uni erlangen de and now for the next case in kangaroo court i accuse you of being the reincarnation of adolf hitler i don t think that mere denials will be sufficient you will have to submit to examinations by a parapsychologist that i personally select perry metzger pmetzger shearson com in article in news admin policy
rec.autos	re ad said nissan altima best seller i too was puzzled by this obvious untruth what i think is going on is that nissan claims that the altima is the best selling new car namelplate in the us i think i have this near verbatim lee iaccoca s statistics dept would have been proud of that sentence note that the corolla prism are also new designs but hey are not new nameplates i guess nissan doesn t even sell as many altimas as toyota does corollas or there would be no nameplate qualifier
rec.autos	re super mega automobile sighting s exotics together give out the address i ll drive by and take a look myself then post stephen phillips atlanta response center atlanta ga home of the braves
rec.autos	re tires for ford ranger pickup i have had good luck with my ranger and yokohama s m tires the tires have been wearing well and even the few times i have hauled heavy loads they have done well
rec.autos	re ford and the automobile rwong eis calstate edu russel wong writes hello my name is russell wong and i am doing a research project on henry ford and his automobile i need information on whether ford is partially responsible for all of the car accidents ya he cut me off on the other day he drives like a crazy person i d have to say he s responsible for most accidents they really should pull his licence steve alan kulwicki winston cup champion
rec.autos	re ford probe opinions centered around the gt in article apr sco com nathanp sco com nathan writes jeremy g mereness zonker cmu edu says can anyone offer any opinions of the ford probe ala how they do in the long run repair records reliability mileage etc i am fixing to buy a car in the next few months aiming toward something a little bigger than a typical small car and with a little more power i am considering the mx probe accord corolla and the sx i bought a probe gt with the pep a last july now at miles after debating over the sentra se r nx mx mr stealth prelude and celica the car design is different than earlier years so it s too early to see its reliability so far for what it s worth my comments my dislikes shutting door with windows up from inside rarely makes good wind seal some other owners on the ford probe world std com mailing list have commented about this problem but i haven t seen it happen on my month old probe gt i think this may be something that ford has corrected since the initial batch of cars also someone said that ford has issued a service bulletin to inform dealers about how to correct this problem so you may be able to get your dealer to fix it headlights have stuck up a few times weather air conditioning broke miles pressure cycling switch condensation around rear washer fluid container doesn t drain completely haven t seen any of these problems nor have i seen these mentioned on the mailing list so these might just be having bad luck with these crammed engine little hope for do it yourselfers typical definitely parts somewhat more expensive than normal ford parts underside plastic doesn t like sharp driveways and speedbumps typical assembly gripes tape on radiator screw fell out of dash seat seams not stitched properly hopefully just a fluke no problems like these either i haven t been able to find any obvious places where they screwed up ford only gives key with the car c mon ford spend an extra few pennies hmmm i got two keys with my car something tells me you got stiffed by your dealer on this actually if you count the credit card key that came in the owner s binder i got keys but since the credit card key doesn t have any teeth cut in it yet i guess i won t count it rear hatch has no padding on corners when up i m waiting for the day when i bash my head on the corner horn buttons behind air bag in spokes and not in center personal preference the latter is probably because of the air bag it s pretty much takes up all the space where you d expect to find the horn speaking of the horn i was surprised to find that the probe comes with one of those nice merican sounding horns instead of the japanese sounding kind the previous probes had japanese horns tires fling dirt mud onto side of car yeah not very badly but enough to be annoying sometimes my likes engine design valves sounds smoothness power mileage torque definitely handling very good for fwd understeer only at limits transmission the speed is a must usable instrumentation lovely readable analog everywhere very little torque steer at full power much better than the sho i drive stability at mph high gearing though low cowl good visibility in front heated outside mirrors nice in fog never tested in freezing weather abs air bag see above rear seats fold down i have few rear seat passengers so a trunk not important no shake rattle noises when going over bumps potholes still tires vr goodyear eagles left hoping for k i agree strongly with all of the above especially about the engine the interior is very very nice too very pleasing to the eye and ergonomically sound i drive it to and from work each day on relatively smooth roads and most noticable thing is that the probe s suspension doesn t like potholes when you test drive one find a potholed road somewhere around town and see if the jarring you get is tolerable yes this car s stiff suspension isn t for everyone i personally like it but if you find it a little harsh but otherwise like the car i d strongly suggest looking into the mx if you have passengers by all means bring them along too they ll find that they have no room in the back and you ll find that the car rides differently if that s better is up to you the problem with the back seat is that there s no leg room plenty of head room though shorter people fit back there without any complaints so long as the seat they are sitting behind is pulled forward a bit to give them a place to put their feet also there s a lot of glass around you which i wasn t expecting the temperature inside the car gets pretty hot in the summer my back seat passengers now very few complain about the lack of ventilation you may want to consider that when combined with the heat the power moonroof can greatly improve the ventilation throughout the car i really enjoy the moonroof by the way but then i ve always been a sucker for open air driving no leakage problems or anything like that yet i ve heard that the exhaust system has trouble but mine works fine i haven t heard about this one i know that some of the very early probes and maybe had problems with prematurely rusting mufflers which ford will replace at no charge but i haven t heard about anything like this concerning the probes i haven t had any real trouble with this car outside of a cv joint boot that was leaking but the dealer took care of that promptly and even gave me a free rental car for the day and a half that i was without my car i was quite happy with the way they handled especially considering that i was expecting the worst from them from what i ve heard it sounds like ford mazda had some qc problems with the probe and probably mx when they first went into production but i think these problems have mostly been corrected at this point that s almost always to be expected with a completely new car like this though hope this helps chuck chuck kesler internet chuck eos ncsu edu unix systems programmer us mail box ncsu campus engineering computer operations raleigh nc usa north carolina state university phone
rec.autos	sticky lock on tailgate my toyota runner has a rolldown rear window with a keylock switch it sticky on me yesterday it was tough to get the key to work and it also happened to stick on in the up direction so the stalled motor was powered all night killing the battery i d like to try to lubricate the lock switch what should i lubricate the lock with email please thanx ken don t drink american corporate swill support you local micro brewery me
rec.autos	renting from alamo hello netters i m visiting the us i m from sweden in august i will probably rent a chevy beretta from alamo i ve been quoted for a week for additional days this would include free driving distance but not local taxes baltimore they also told me all insurance thats necessary is included but i doubt that cause a friend rented a car last year and it turned out he needed a lot more insurance than what s included in the base price but on the other hand he didn t rent it from alamo does anyone have some info on this is a rip off probability that i ll be needing more insurance is the beretta a good rental car thanx markus
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time nancy hayduke nancy feagans writes ashtrays and cigarette lighters these should be an option gm at least is heading in that direction one of the post sale questions they asked me was if i d like the choice of a cigarette liter or an accessory plug and another whether i d like the choice of an ashtray or a cup holder the geo storms have the cigarette lighter vs accessory plug option which did not exist in the i bought i m not sure about the ash tray vs cup holder it s a step in the right direction the ashtray does make a convenient change holder so it s not completely useless jim frost jimf centerline com
rec.autos	re no haggle deals save you can be sure they wouldn t do it if it wasn t to their advantage mark
rec.autos	re ford probe opinions centered around the gt in article apr ncsu edu chuck eos ncsu edu chuck kesler writes rear hatch has no padding on corners when up i m waiting for the day when i bash my head on the corner horn buttons behind air bag in spokes and not in center personal preference the latter is probably because of the air bag it s pretty much takes up all the space where you d expect to find the horn all toyotas have airbags with a real horn come on how hard can it be to put a little pressure plate there i hope toyota doesn t follow everyone else and make the horns little buttons that i wouldn t want to fumble for john john nielsen magnus consultant to you baldrick the renaissance was just something that happened to other people wasn t it the black adder
rec.autos	re it s a rush was re too fast in article c r y f d mentor cc purdue edu marshatt feserve cc purdue edu zauberer writes i guess i wasn t clear enough here i said the roads were designed for speeds of or so and still be safe the current will add a saftey margin they were designed for speeds of upwards of i forget the exact spec but for military vehicles that s in a dodge powerwagon not in a ford taurus
rec.autos	re where can i get a new york taxi in article c r a rb srgenprp sr hp com almanb sr hp com bob alman writes hose h o s e dork d o r k
rec.autos	super mega automobile sighting s exotics together alright beat this automobile sighting driving along just a hair north of atlanta i noticed an old run down former car dealership which appeared to deal with and repair older rare or exotic foreign sports cars i saw ford gt the famous model from ford that seemed to win most of its races in the late s including le mans or times two jensen interceptors one a convertable one a hatchback porsche boring compared to the rest three ferarries a mondial a prepared for racing and a red s model that i couldn t identify and at the bottom a late s mg convertable outside there was a rotting rover saloon which was never regularly sold in the u s and in the showroom there was a small italian body either an alpha romeo or a lancia it was about the size of an austin mini the trunklid was missing exposing a boot with a voltage regulator in the upper left corner of the wall and a chunk of metal removed from the floor on the right hand side as if something would leave the trunk and go to the outside from here the taillights looked like they would be the round type if they were there does anyone know what the make of this one is certainly made my day graham e thomas blah blah blah blah blah georgia institute of technology blah blah blah blah blah internet grahamt oit gatech edu blah blah blah blah blah
rec.autos	re mercury capri restrictions the restriction could have to do with the car being a convertible a lot of paronoid laws were passed concerning convertibles in the s these states may require greater rollover protection than the capri affords thatch harvey thatch harvey uucp no longer valid domain thatchh hplsla hp com hewlett packard lake stevens instrument division lake stevens wa merkur xr ti suzuki gsx g prince sr d sports racer
rec.autos	re removing rain x coat on the front windshield any tips if you want a summer without rain you re in the wrong place you must not have been here a whole year yet keep the rain x handy my friend thatch thatch harvey uucp no longer valid domain thatchh hplsla hp com hewlett packard lake stevens instrument division lake stevens wa merkur xr ti suzuki gsx g prince sr d sports racer
rec.autos	re it s a rush was re too fast in article unisql uucp wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes in article c r y f d mentor cc purdue edu marshatt feserve cc purdue edu zauberer writes i guess i wasn t clear enough here i said the roads were designed for speeds of or so and still be safe the current will add a saftey margin they were designed for speeds of upwards of i forget the exact spec but for military vehicles that s in a dodge powerwagon not in a ford taurus ah yes the powerwagon now there was a vehicle that today s cars can t touch in terms of high speed road holding ability
rec.autos	re blast to the past amh ns cc lehigh edu alois m himsl writes be worthwhile or how about something like the old mgb with new technology just think about it the old style with upgraded safety features and perhaps a natural gas operated engine for less than k i think it would go over well what is your opinion al h well the mgb is currently in production for the english market built by rover it now has a v improved suspention and a slightly updated body too bad it s only available in gb and would set one of us back about graham e thomas blah blah blah blah blah georgia institute of technology blah blah blah blah blah internet grahamt oit gatech edu blah blah blah blah blah
rec.autos	re zx or sc ip ns cc lehigh edu danny phornprapha writes i m getting a car in the near future i ve narrow it down to zx and sc which might be a better choice thanks for your opnion danny i ve been asking myself this same question for the past year so if when you find out would you please share the magistic answer with me the way i see it right now work twice as hard so you can have both cheers issa my suggestion is why not work twice as hard like issa suggested above then get acura nsx enjoy seb
rec.autos	re grand am cyl in article holcomb apr wgermany ctron com holcomb ctron com edgar w ii holcomb writes in article apr remus rutgers edu wilmott remus rutgers edu ray wilmott writes hi all a while back i was asking for info about a few different models the grand am being one of them response was generally favorable one thing often repeated was go for the v for some real power point well taken but does anybody have any input on the cylinders both the standard ohc and the quad ray the high output quad delivers hp for the wf quad whereas the l v offered in the grand am delivers hp i own a beretta gtz ooppss the v in the grand am is the litre not the the is a downsized version of buicks litre v the v goes in the beretta and corsica
rec.autos	re buick heater controls i had the exactly same problem with my lesabre it was also from cal what i did was go to the local junkyard and pick up a diaphragm from a lesabre with the same heater set up it worked for me but a little bit slow to change from vents to defogger better than nothing
rec.autos	re improvements in automatic transmissions in article qugvu ai quad wfunet wfu edu hagenjd wfu edu jeff hagen writes thanx to all those who responded particularly those never driven an xxx but here s what it s like guys ok we all know that new age at s are great in traffic and do a satisfactory job in acceleration when you keep your foot buried in the carpet my question regards downshifting not downshifting to pass at s are good at this now but manually moving the lever to or at a point where you would downshift a manual e g approaching a red light or a curve or just tooling around a parking lot in st or nd w o shifting this is why i m still a manual trans bigot the downshifting for deceleration seems so natural when i try this in an automatic the tranny doesn t seem to understand what i want addendum isn t it great after downshifting while approaching that red light when the light goes green and you re already on cam or the turbo s already spooled up zippppppppppp hagen hagenjd ac wfu edu i have a grand am with auto and quad around the gear selector there is a plastic strip which covers the space so you can t see inside anyway i took the cover off and cut the end of this long strip to a specific length the strip curls up into a cirlce at one end inside anyway by doing this the strip can t feed into the lip that circles it so i can push button pull down and the gear shifter will only go back to from drive no accidental hitting first i drive around town in to keep the revs up shift to drive above and pull down to when coming up to lights if i want if i am eating food i drive in drive there are probably aftermarket shift kits that will accomplish the same thing porsche s tip tronic automatic can be driven like an auto or put into mode tip up upshift tip down downshift of course there is an override so you don t redline the engine
rec.autos	re braindead drivers who don t look ahead in article tekig pen tek com jitloke tekig pen tek com jit loke lim writes in article apr cbnewsd cb att com hhm cbnewsd cb att com herschel h mayo writes anybody is going anywhere so i block the would be passers not only for my own good but theirs as well even though they are often too stupid to realize it ah we are looking for good people just like you we are a very concerned group of citizens who are absolutely disgusted at the way that the majority of drivers simply disobey traffic rules like going above the speed limit passing on our right and riding our tails while all the while we respectfully abide by the rules of this great country and maintain the mandated speed limits with our calibrated certified cruise controls while keeping the respectful car length distance mph speed how many times have you been ticked off by some moron who jumps ahead in the car lengths that you have left between you and the vehicle ahead of you while driving mph finally you have an option we are a totally member supported group that perform functions for our own good for the good of this great country but most of all for those unfortunate ones that are too stupid to realize it bless their souls for a paltry you can join citizens for rationally advanced piloting c r a p a non profit members only society but but but there is a slight hitch the initiation rite to be a full fledged member of this exclusive club you must proof that you are able to be in the fast lane of the busiest interstate in your area keep the correct car lenth mph speedand i know this can be difficult with those morons around not let anybody pass you not in the next lane not in the slow lane not in the breakdown lane not nowhere for a complete list of acceptable interstates and times send and by the way over of our members are highly regarded attorneys in the auto field and they are completely absolutely positively in the business only to serve your best interests as a testament to their virtues they will give members off the initial consultation fee feel free to drop me a line at your earliest convenience and remember only speed kills jit of course you are a bunch of arrogant lawyers who know whats best for the rest of us you are doing such a wonderful job with our judicial system getting all the criminals off i bow to your superior intellect not to mention the fees you collect from us poor slobs who get tickets from speeding state police officers so you can soak is when we go to court i just love lawyer jokes don t you c
rec.autos	re alarm systems are they worthwhile in article apr news eng convex com dodson convex com dave dodson writes is it worthwhile to get an alarm system on a new car although others have in the past and will continue to disagree i think that it is worthwhile to get an alarm what features are important i think that it is important to protect your trunk engine bay all doors i d get flashing lights led s mounted on the drivers and passenger door and a relay to disable engine operation toss in a glass break sensor and shock sensor door lock and unlock two remotes and panic feature are also nice to have most important is where you have the installation done some places may cost a little more but a poorly installed alarm no matter how much it cost will be a major burden what features are unimportant imo things like engine starters voice alarms window sunroof open and close and most other conveniences dave dodson dodson convex com convex computer corporation richardson texas larry keys csmes ncsl nist gov oo v fahrvergnugen forever the fact that i need to explain it to you indicates that you probably wouldn t understand anyway
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time in article oasys dt navy mil glouie oasys dt navy mil george louie writes in rec autos nancy hayduke nancy feagans writes ashtrays and cigarette lighters these should be an option why make it an option you can use the ashtray to store coins and other small things which come in handy use the cigarette lighter as an electrical outlet for all types of handy gadgets cd players vacuum cleaners flashlights etc i don t want to pay extra for these things and if you don t use them they don t hurt you i use the ashtray to keep change and other items in i converted the cigarette lighter into a volume control knob for my in trunk subwoofer george larry keys csmes ncsl nist gov oo v fahrvergnugen forever the fact that i need to explain it to you indicates that you probably wouldn t understand anyway
rec.autos	re warning please read in article apr erich triumf ca music erich triumf ca fred w bach writes in article c r iy v ssd intel com jrowell ssd intel com janet rowell writes could we plase cease this discussion i fail to see why people feel the need to expound upon this issue for days and days on end these areas are not meant for this type of discussion if you feel the need to do such things please take your thought elsewhere thanks exactly my point there is a lot of hostility to and from teenagers if you follow the news for the northwest usa you will have heard that a group of year old boys barely out of the teens certainly their outlook was developed during their teens just shot and killed an innocent little girl riding in a car in the seattle area when her mother who was driving honked her horn at the car with the boys in it this is really upsetting and makes my stomach turn as it would any parent s doesn t your heart just go out to that poor mother teenagers both drive cars and are involved in automotive vandalism and crime maybe someone on this newsgroup has had specific experience in dealing with violent teenage offenders like these kids are at the same it seems sad that people lose all perspective when they here about a case of violence by teenagers for a little perspective how about the thousands of kind teenagers who volunteer at local agencies to help children seniors the homeless did you read about all the kids at stanford who spent their spring breaks helping out in inner city areas what about the hundreds of volunteers teenagers and others who worked to clean up the mess after the rodney king riots in la have you gone to your local high school play recently attended the school orchestra performances have you seen how many kids volunteer to pick up trash plant trees do walk a thons how many kids have tried to sell you stuff to benefit organizations they belong to how many girl scout cookies have you bought how many chocolate bars for good causes the media picks up on all the anomalies the sensational what about the wonderful teenagers all over the place who work hard at school get good grades go to college or to work and make a real contribution to our society all humans are teenagers at some time in their lives mother theresa was a teenager and so was geoffrey dahmer it is really sad to see so many people who buy the sensational reporting of the media as some kind of reflection of the world today it is a reflection of what is happening on the outer fringes of our society and nothing more rf
rec.autos	re alarm systems are they worthwhile in article apr news eng convex com dave dodson dodson convex com writes is it worthwhile to get an alarm system on a new car what features are important what features are unimportant that is a question that can only be answered by yourself and where you live if you live in a place where crime is apparent then it might be a good idea to get one simply as a deterrent however if a professional thief wants your vehicle its as good as gone no matter what you do but to slow down any thieves it would be a good idea to get the basic options that would be ignition kill or fuel cut off a flashing red led these two are basic to a decent alarm system to slow down the criminal some more get a steering wheel lock that should be sufficient to persuade the thief to find an easier target but then there s always car jacking why is life so confusing i hope i helped somewhat jason yow human factors psychology program wright state university dayton oh e mail jyow desire wright edu
rec.autos	fast idle on ford ranger it did it again this morning my ford ranger was idling at rpm ok so i exaggerated a little but it was idling very fast it has a liter carburated engine in it and no blipping of the throttle would cause the idle to drop back to normal i don t think the linkage is stuck what can i do to fix this problem this has been a problem from time to time but has straightened itself out until now i don t have a tach but by gauging by the sound of the engine it is idling about twice as fast as it should be this is down from what it was idling at when i pulled up at a stop light many thanks for any suggestions les les bartel i m going to live forever intergraph corporation or die trying electronics division ljbartel ingr com or ljbartel naomi b b ingr com
rec.autos	re ad said nissan altima best seller i guess that makes altima the most generic car in the us
rec.autos	re no haggle deals save a local dealer is advertising no negotiation necessary make you wonder
rec.autos	re ford probe opinions centered around the gt jeremy g mereness zonker cmu edu says can anyone offer any opinions of the ford probe ala how they do in the long run repair records reliability mileage etc i am fixing to buy a car in the next few months aiming toward something a little bigger than a typical small car and with a little more power i am considering the mx probe accord corolla and the sx the probe is the youngest of the bunch thus my interest in opinions but every magazine and ratings book places it as an excellent value btw the sx is rear wheel drive and is due for a re design for thanks in advance while i don t read normally read this group i was looking for valentine radar information sigh maybe in the faq and came across your posting i bought a probe gt with the pep a last july now at miles after debating over the sentra se r nx mx mr stealth prelude and celica check this month s consumer reports for previous probe records my criteria a fun car with abs airbag over hp and less than k i thought about a turbo but checking with insurance people ruled that out the tri star cars eclipse talon etc were out since they don t have an air bag ditto for the mustang also no abs the se r nx m fell into the pocket rocket category a good used car buy the mx was almost there but rolled more than i liked i didn t like the prelude dash instrumentation at all too weird for me the mr has a much smaller non passenger space than i needed so out that went the celica was ok but underpowered when loaded with options and somewhat overpriced too in non turbo form i never considered the sx since it didn t have an airbag i did look at it for its rwd virtues but that s it the corolla never entered my mind i should have looked at the mitsubishi vr dodge stealth more since my list was exhausted i bought the probe the car design is different than earlier years so it s too early to see its reliability so far for what it s worth my comments my dislikes shutting door with windows up from inside rarely makes good wind seal headlights have stuck up a few times weather air conditioning broke miles pressure cycling switch condensation around rear washer fluid container doesn t drain completely crammed engine little hope for do it yourselfers typical parts somewhat more expensive than normal ford parts underside plastic doesn t like sharp driveways and speedbumps typical assembly gripes tape on radiator screw fell out of dash seat seams not stitched properly hopefully just a fluke ford only gives key with the car c mon ford spend an extra few pennies rear hatch has no padding on corners when up i m waiting for the day when i bash my head on the corner horn buttons behind air bag in spokes and not in center personal preference tires fling dirt mud onto side of car my likes engine design valves sounds smoothness power mileage torque definitely handling very good for fwd understeer only at limits transmission the speed is a must usable instrumentation lovely readable analog everywhere very little torque steer at full power much better than the sho i drive stability at mph high gearing though low cowl good visibility in front heated outside mirrors nice in fog never tested in freezing weather abs air bag see above rear seats fold down i have few rear seat passengers so a trunk not important no shake rattle noises when going over bumps potholes still tires vr goodyear eagles left hoping for k as you can see i m primarily interested in the engine while it doesn t have the uummmph of a big liter car or the turbo rush the big selling point for me was the all aluminum value liter engine the overall car is a good buy for the money that market segment hasn t changed much since july prelude vtec honda del sol i drive it to and from work each day on relatively smooth roads and most noticable thing is that the probe s suspension doesn t like potholes when you test drive one find a potholed road somewhere around town and see if the jarring you get is tolerable if you have passengers by all means bring them along too they ll find that they have no room in the back and you ll find that the car rides differently if that s better is up to you also there s a lot of glass around you which i wasn t expecting the temperature inside the car gets pretty hot in the summer my back seat passengers now very few complain about the lack of ventilation you may want to consider that when combined with the heat i ve heard that the exhaust system has trouble but mine works fine leather and the keyless entry system weren t available when i got the car so i can t comment on them i got the car before it was officially announced i prefer cloth to leather anyway i wouldn t want this car in the snow the suspension is too rough for the inevitable surprise potholes tires aren t meant for snow and the seats assume that you re not wearing lots of thick clothing rain is much better water generally beads off the windshield at freeway speed the windshield wiper controls are easy and understandable and i barely hydroplaned once with the eagles and i was really trying there is also a definite lack of cup holder small storage places the gt has map holders below the speakers in the door but they re rigid plastic that could fit two cassettes or cd s max the center console storage bin arm rest has cup holder and the back of the front seats have a cloth pouch but that s it no change holders quite a let down from the sho and the probe is definitely not a people mover car or an econo box car lastly don t store wet car covers in the back the foam will soak the water up and the result will not smell pleasant nathan nathan sco com jeremy mereness support ye olde disclaimer zonker cmu edu internet free the above represent my fast project cmu gsia software opinions alone b s mechanical engineering cmu ya gotta love it every silver lining s got a touch of grey this year marks the th anniversary of the bill of rights mx nathan sco com no comment they re coming to take me away ha ha napolean xiv
rec.autos	re auto air conditioning without freon we are working on gas solid adsorption air con system for auto applications in this kind of system the energy for regenerating the adsorbent is from the exhaust gas anyone interested in this mail email me or follow up this thread we may have a discussion on prospects of this technology max max g q lu phd internet mgqlu ntu ac sg division of thermal enginerring bitnet mgqlu ntuvax bitnet school of mpe nanyang technological university phone nanyang avenue singapore fax
rec.autos	re warning please read tobias convex com allen tobias writes in article apr virginia edu ejv j virginia edu erik vel this happened about a year ago on the washington dc beltway snot nosed drunken kids decided it would be really cool to throw huge rocks down on cars from an overpass four or five cars were hit there were several serious injuries and sadly a small girl sitting in the front seat of one of them was struck in the head by one of the larger rocks i don t recall if she made it but i think she was comatose for a month or so and doctors weren t holding out hope that she d live what the hell is happening to this great country of ours i can see boyhood pranks of peeing off of bridges and such but pound rocks has our society really stooped this low erik velapold society as we have known it it coming apart at the seams the basic reason is that human life has been devalued to the point were killing someone is no big deal kid s see hundreds on murderous acts on tv we can abort children on demand and kill the sick and old at will so why be surprised when some kids drop lbs rocks and kill people they don t care because the message they hear is life is cheap at well people fortunatly or unfortunatly only the us is experiencing the devaluation of human life among developed nations i am an american but i was raised in europe where the worst thing that can happen to somebody is get his car broken into or have his pocket picked by slaves or russian refugees of cource there will be some nutcases but thats extremely rare i e in greece you can walk through any neighborhood at any time during the night without even worrying in germany you can walk the sidewalks at am and not even look behind your back at the sanitation crews that clean the streets to a sparkling cleen whoever of you have been there you know what i am saying i dont have any easy answers but if we as a nation do some selfcritisism we might get somewhere of course these postings sould be in soc culture us but if we reduce crime here it ll mean less car insurance rates thus we could spend more money on modifing our cars now my posting is rec autos tech revelant vlasis theodore software engineer idb mobile communications sig under development
rec.autos	re warning please read neilson seoul mpr ca robert neilson writes sorry for the auto content but that is why low abiding citizens should have the power to protect themselve and their property using deadly force if necessary anywhere a threat is imminent steve heracleous you do have the power steve you can do it why don t you why don t you go shoot some kids who are tossing rocks onto cars make sure you do a good job though don t miss cause like they have big rocks and take it from me those kids are mean ditto i you dont do it yourself nobody will unless i am behind you so both of us can shoot them bastards
rec.autos	re changing oil by self in article apr rtfm mlb fl us gwalker rtfm mlb fl us grayson walker writes why crawl under the car at all i have a machine i got for my boat that pulls the oil out under suction through the dip stick tube it does an excellent job and by moving the suction tube around you can get more old oil out than by using the drain plug i think i paid at e b marine the oil goes into a steel gal can wait until it cools and decant into your favorite device i use soft drink bottles easy to take them down to the local oil recycle center this does sound good but i heard it tends to leave more grit etc in the oil pan also i ve been told to change the old when it s hot before the grit has much time to settle any opinions bryan welch amateur radio n sfg internet europa vnet ibm com best bwelch scf nmsu edu everything will perish save love and music scots gaelic proverb disclaimer it s all opinion everything so there
rec.autos	re warning please read in article c joit e bcstec ca boeing com neil bcstec ca boeing com neil williams writes larose austin cs utk edu brian larose writes this just a warning to everybody on the net watch out for folks standing next to the road or on overpasses they can cause serious harm to you and your car just a cliff notes version of my story follows pm last night i was travelling on the interstate here in knoxville i was taking an offramp exit to another interstate and my wife suddenly screamed and something large hit the side of my truck we slowed down but after looking back to see the vandals standing there we drove on to the police station she did get a good look at the guy and saw him cock his arm with something the size of a cinderblock but i never saw him we are very lucky the truck sits up high on the road if it would have hit her window it would have killed her the police are looking for the guy but in all likelyhood he is gone i am a very good driver knock on wood but it was night time and i never saw the guy the police said they thought the motive was to hit the car have us stop to check out the damage and then jump us and take the truck please be aware of folks and for your own good please don t stop peace brian larose larose cs utk edu essary rd knoxville tn as long as we re on the subject several years ago myself and two others were riding in the front of a toyota pickup heading south on interstate north of seattle wa someone threw a rock of an overpass and hit our windshield not by accident i m sure it was impossible to get up to the overpass quickly to see who did it we figured it was kids reported it and left a couple of years ago it happend again and killed a guy at my company he was in his mid fourties and left behind a wife and children turned out there was a reformatory for juviniles a few blocks away they caught the year old that did it they put a cover over the overpass what else could they do i don t think i ll over forget this story in des moines iowa about a year ago some kid dropped a rock from an overpass and hit car just behind the windshield it put a dent in the roof so i guess i was lucky it hit metal it s frustrating that we can t do much bother the city government to put covers on all overpasses slow down speed up a bit when driving under all overpasses in the city i like the first better but that will take time and lots of people talking to the city governments just another bryan welch amateur radio n sfg internet europa vnet ibm com best bwelch scf nmsu edu everything will perish save love and music scots gaelic proverb disclaimer it s all opinion everything so there
rec.autos	re too fast boyle cactus org craig boyle writes the quality of autobahns is something of a myth the road surface isn t much different to a typical tx freeway they are better in terms of lighting safety signs roadmarkings etc they light the highways in texas funny everywhere else i ve been they only light em at junctions i won t even get into how much road markings vary between states and localities except to say that there are some areas where markings are essentially nonexistant than most of the roads here a dip in the asphalt that you test your shocks on at will kill you at don t get me wrong i love to it would have to be quite severe i don t recall any us freeway without road damage warnings that i would regard as unsafe at in any decent well damped car i suspect you have very limited experience us freeways vary dramatically particularly between states i can name a number of interstate highways in various parts of the country where would be very optimistic in any car i m not sure what you call quite severe in terms of road deviations but i suspect every single bridge junction on i through ct would be considered so they re hard to take at mph that s not the only interstate i ve seen with such deviations but it s one i drive frequently texas is pretty much an edge case you can t assume that everywhere has roads in such good condition such flat terrain and such wide open spaces it just ain t so jim frost jimf centerline com
rec.autos	re it s a rush was re too fast wharf wrat rites they were designed for speeds of upwards of i forget the exact spec but for military vehicles that s in a dodge powerwagon not in a ford taurus ever once in a while you still see a reference to the super slab system as interstate and defense highways but whether the military has much of anything that goes on the road is another matter a few of their most whomped up diesel trucks maybe load permitting the military surplus stuff i ve driven jeep classic willys kaiser amc pre independent suspension and power wagons slant in a crew cab pickup weren t exactly congenial at highway speeds and i wouldn t swear any of them would do except as a bedload on a semi you just gotta love the standard military tire too or at least the one they used to use designed circa ww ii as a compromise between traction in icky sticky goo and longevity on sharp rocks and so forth it s quite ill adapted to high speeds on civilian roadways for those who can t remember what they look like imagine a mountain bike tire with a road rib in the middle scaled up to car size oh yeah and narrow too one of the standard mods for civilizing a surplus jeep was to install tires and wheels that reflected some of the advancements made in ride and handling since d day but the point made by wharfie and others still stands if you re going to do in a mil spec power wagon or a jeep or a tank transporter or other unwieldy rubber tired vehicle anywhere i d suggest the american interstate your safe speed there tends to be limited more by your car and skills road maintenance and the swarms of fools around you the roads were designed for going like the devil naturally neither i nor my employer advocates unsafe or unlawful driving joe just another personal opinion from the people s republic of berkeley
rec.autos	importing volvo well i m afraid the time has come my rice burner has finally died i d always promised my wife that we would do a scandanavian tour when my car died and pick up a volvo in sweden drive it around and then import it home can anyone give me advice on feasibility and relative costs references where i might learn more personal experience please email thanks
rec.autos	selling a car through a car hunter anybody got any good bad experience with selling their car through one of those car hunters i m selling a dodge stealth r t and i was contacted by this company called the markham group based out of illinois they said they have buyers in my area interested in my car or they wouldn t be talking to me they talked to me for a good minutes asking everything about my car and said they could sell it no problem they guaranteed that if they didn t sell my car in days i would get my money back and since i charged it i m protected by federal law which states that if i m not satisfied i would get a refund which is true they federal expressed all the paperwork to me which had a contract stating their policy about the days and such i called up the bbb in illinois and they do not have a file on them which is good news so they definitely are a legitimate company but so far it s been over week and i have gotten nothing so how effective are these types of companies anybody care to share their experiences
rec.autos	re trading in a car that s not paid for pointers please in article fibercom com rrg rtp fibercom com rhonda gaines writes i m planning on purchasing a new car and will be trading in my mazda mx dx i ve still got more years to pay on it how does that get taken into account when i purchase my new car does the dealership pay off my car and add on the amount they had to pay to the purchase price of the new car someone please explain this to me if you don t already know it you should call the bank credit union finance company that holds the loan on your present car and get the current payoff cost if you are trading in your current car on the new car subtract the payoff amount from the trade in the dealer is giving you if this turns out to be a negative number you need to reconsider the deal subtract this difference from the price of the new car this is the size of the loan you will need for the new car the dealer will take care of paying off the loan on your old car out of the money you give them when you pick up your new car at least that s how it worked for me years ago in ohio thanks rhonda joseph staudt telxon corp joes telxon com p o box usenet is like tetris for people who still akron oh remember how to read x j heller
rec.autos	re ford and the automobile ford and his automobile i need information on whether ford is partially responsible for all of the car accidents and the depletion of the ozone layer also any other additional information will be greatly appreciated thanks sssssoooooooooooo its all his fault thank god louis chevrolet is innocent and that guy diesel he otto feel guilty stephen phillips atlanta response center atlanta ga home of the braves
rec.autos	re warning please read rfelix netcom com robbie felix writes how about the thousands of kind teenagers who volunteer at local agencies to help children seniors the homeless hear hear thanks robbie you also don t read that much about violence against teenagers such as george bush burying alive tens of thousands of unarmed iraqi year olds who were trying to surrender with bulldozers on the other hand i think it is true without singling out teenagers for blame that violence is more socially acceptable than it used to be those of us who d like to discourage violence have plenty of work to do with people of all ages
rec.autos	water in trunk of probe water gradually builds up in the trunk of my friend s ford probe every once in a while we would have to remove the spare and scoop out the water under the plywood carpet cover on the trunk i would guess this usually happens after a good thunder storm a few qs is this a common problem where are the drain holes located for the hatch thanks for any info tom tom szeto no not those peanuts the ones on the tszeto sneezy ts stratus com bottom ggnuuaahuuhh include disclaimer h homer simpson
rec.autos	re eagle talon tsi lemon in rec autos jay lorenzana u uicvm uic edu wrote dear netters i am looking to buy a used eagle talon or tsi awd i would be concerned about how the car was driven and how well it was maintained i own a turbocharged one and i would never buy a turbocharged vehicle unless i knew the owner and his her driving maintenance habits question is that the tsi awd was mentioned in the april consumer reports to a car to avoid i have been wondering about that myself the awd models and the s were identical except for the abs option in particular the manual transmission yes some owners had problems with the transaxles using synthetic lubricants in the transaxles solved the problem in most cases the problem was not unique to the awds however it was common to all models the galant vr and gsx had the same transaxle but i didn t see those listed in cr electrical system i don t know of any major complaints in this area except that the battery that was installed at the factory had a low current rating and brakes were below par in both models the first fwd models those built before may were recalled for brake upgrades some fwd and awd owners had problems with warped rotors those of us who insist on using manual torque wrenches every time the lug nuts are tightened have never had a problem a friend of mine ownes a tsi awd and he has had brake jobs pads i can refer you to someone who has gone through a set of pads in one day it all depends on how you drive it seems that most owners have been getting between k on a set of pads one stuck valve first time i hear about a problem with the valve train on these cars other than timing belt failures and some clutch transmission problem something about sticking grinding into second gear this doesn t seem too bad if one beats on his car if your friend beats on the car then his unit is not a representative sample of the car s reliability my suggestion is instead of listening to the useless consumer reports talk to several owners the mailing list may be the best way to reach a few of them i am willing to suffer reliability for speed and looks seems you have to pay big buck if you want all three anyway can anyone please let me know how you like your talon and any problems you may have had and if the repairs are worth it if humor impaired skip to theend no matter how much you pay you won t get all three examples nsx reliability and looks ferrari reliability h h h h h h yeah right speed and looks theend the opinions stated above are not necessarily my employer s roberto l landrau kc yp landrau mitre org rll linus mitre org the mitre corporation bedford ma rll linus uucp
rec.autos	is car saftey important i was recently thumbing through the lemon aid new car guide what i found was a car would be given a recommended under the picture while a few sentences later noting how a driver and passenger were virtually guaranteed to be killed in a front end collision the most highly recommended small car the civic has the worst crash rating of all of the small cars listed there were many such cases of great vehicles where you wouldn t survive an accident is it only me or is safety not one of the most important factors when buying a car
rec.autos	re renting from alamo in article apr ericsson se etxmst sta ericsson se writes hello netters i m visiting the us i m from sweden in august i will probably rent a chevy beretta from alamo i ve been quoted for a week for additional days this would include free driving distance but not local taxes baltimore they also told me all insurance thats necessary is included but i doubt that cause a friend rented a car last year and it turned out he needed a lot more insurance than what s included in the base price but on the other hand he didn t rent it from alamo does anyone have some info on this is a rip off no that sounds pretty reasonable for that car and that city probability that i ll be needing more insurance unless you have an accident you won t need more if you plan on paying for the car with a credit card check and see if your card automatically covers rental cars also your own auto insurance may cover rental cars also most rental companies here offer extra insurance when you rent and require you to initial in several spots if you don t want it the credit cards and personal auto insurance provide the same sort of coverage that the rental agency is trying to sell i have never rented from alamo so i don t know if they follow this same practice is the beretta a good rental car yes it is a compact door probably a bit dull performance and acceleration wise but very adequate it will have an automatic transmission am fm stereo air conditioning and possibly power windows and door locks joe joseph staudt telxon corp joes telxon com p o box usenet is like tetris for people who still akron oh remember how to read x j heller
rec.autos	re manual shift bigots in a previous article eric youngblood says in article apr engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes race car stuff deleted back to the f stuff for a second note that the auto tranny in f still shifts at the driver s command not some preselected schedule the driver still controls the shifting not the transmission now there is no dispute that in production cars automatics are inherently more lossy than manuals that is in theory my point all along is that whatever mechanical advantages a manual has over an automatic can very easily be lost by a driver who isn t skillful or one thing that gives an automatic an advantage at launch is the fact that it has a torque converter vs a clutch i know this sounds strange but a torque converter multiplies the engine output when launching it functions as a sort of limited continuously variable transmission typically you get a torque multiplication of to times depending on the stall speed i have yet to see a torque multiplier installed on a production automobile such systems do exist but none are presently installed in production autos that i am aware of these are commonly called viscous drive cvts or fluidic amplifiers contrasted to a clutch which merely slips when feathered result is no tq mult what the convertor does allow is for the engine to be closer to its torque peak during the launch before a clutched car can fully engage it s driveline chevy proved it many years ago with the camaro ets and terminal mile times were close enough tpo be identical for speed and auto cars note that this is also the major reason that an auto car can get away with fewer gears than a manual the slip in the convertor makes up for the fewer ratios and before everyone starts yelling about the proposed sspeed autos soon to be out note that some manufacturers are using speed manulas now once past lauch however the converter begins coupling and the tq multiplication effect is reduced but by then you should be on the cam correct al bowers dod alfa ducati hobie kottke blad iaido nasa well goodness sakes don t you know that girls can t play guitar mary chapin carpenter
rec.autos	internal leak in carburetor hi my friend s toyota tercel accelerates by itself without using the gas peddel the repairman said it has a internal leak of air in the carburetor and needs a new carburetor costs she likes to know if it is possible to fix the problem without replacing the whole carburetor thank you
rec.autos	bbb autoline arbitration my bbb autoline arbitration experience is over the outcome was decidedly mixed i won the battle but lost the war the arbitrator found that the car was defective but decided to offer a repurchase well below market value at the time of the hearing average retail on my truck in the nada book was but the decision was for i wrote a letter to the council of better business bureaus pointing out the fact that if you have an automobile that does not depreciate rapidly the manufacturer has no incentive to deal with you there is no way that the manufacturer can loose because they can turn around and sell the vehicle at a profit if the consumer is awarded a repurchase the attitude of chevrolet s representative at the hearing tends to support this point of view he was totally unprepared and did not seem to take the proceeding very seriously i decided to take the repurchase even though i am getting totally screwed on the price i will not have to deal with continuing repairs or selling a lemon myself and i have no case for a civil suit based on the idaho lemon law i am planning to send a letter to my elected representatives telling them how utterly ridiculous the idaho lemon law is the law allows for a use deduction equal to the irs mileage allowance as if chevrolet were buying my gas and paying for my insurance summary of the case in may i bought a new ton hd chevrolet pickup between may and december this vehicle required repair after repair systems that required attention included the transmission heater fan paint suspension and motor the main problem was the five speed manual transmission they could not install a non defective transmission in at least four attempts so in summary it is possible to get a repurchase but you are going to get screwed on the price unless you paid too much in the first place or if your car happens to be a model that depreciates rapidly jackw hpdmd boi hp com
rec.autos	re warning please read in article apr erich triumf ca music erich triumf ca fred w bach writes xref taco alt parents teens rec autos path taco gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu caen destroyer cs ubc ca unixg ubc ca erich triumf ca music from music erich triumf ca fred w bach newsgroups alt parents teens rec autos subject re warning please read date apr pst organization triumf tri university meson facility lines distribution world message id apr erich triumf ca references c joit e bcstec ca boeing com apr erich triumf ca qs a f bigboote wpi edu c r iy v ssd intel com nntp posting host erich triumf ca summary violent teenagers and victims need help keywords brick rock danger gun violent teenagers news software vax vms vnews in article c r iy v ssd intel com jrowell ssd intel com janet rowell writes could we plase cease this discussion i fail to see why people feel the need to expound upon this issue for days and days on end these areas are not meant for this type of discussion if you feel the need to do such things please take your thought elsewhere thanks i just want to second this request i value this net group as one where people focus on solving problems and go out of their way to be respectful of differences the hostility expressed in the original posting feels like an assault thanks jan exactly my point there is a lot of hostility to and from teenagers look i sent these posts here to alt parents teens with a copy to rec autos since you people in this group may have the best advice for and experience with troubled teenagers if you follow the news for the northwest usa you will have heard that a group of year old boys barely out of the teens certainly their outlook was developed during their teens just shot and killed an innocent little girl riding in a car in the seattle area when her mother who was driving honked her horn at the car with the boys in it this is really upsetting and makes my stomach turn as it would any parent s doesn t your heart just go out to that poor mother yes fred my heart and prayers go out to the mother and others who have been victims of these and other senseless crimes you folks in this group have a responsibility to offer any good advice that you may have i suspect lots of people all over the world will read and appreciate your comments however i feel that you have missed the point of the previous postings see top your statement of responsibility is felt as an attack towards the members of this group you are attempting to make the members of this group be required to answer the only people who should make a statement are people who have experienced the problem and found a workable solution teenagers both drive cars and are involved in automotive vandalism and crime maybe someone on this newsgroup has had specific experience in dealing with violent teenage offenders like these kids are at the same time maybe you would have some good advice for those hostile people who sense that are now the potential victims maybe you would have some good advice for them on how not to pay back and or not make the situation worse maybe you have some good advice for local authorities or schools where this problem is prevalent but then again maybe you re not interested many people are interested but have no input i will restate that your last sentence here is seen as an attack on the members of this group if people have input they will give it if they do not you should not make them feel compelled sp to respond if you wish to continue this conversation please send e mail do not repost or attempt to bait me i will not make another post and may i make the same a suggestion to other group members on this matter thanks in advance for your help if we get any btw your welcome jerry l storrs system network manager why do you look for the living dept of chemical engineering ncsu among the dead he is not here storrs che ncsu edu preferred he is risen storrs eos ncsu edu luke the lord is risen indeed any statement made is the explicit belief of the writer and not the employer
rec.autos	re wife wants convertible nuet ke pts mot com keith nuetzman x p writes help my wife has informed me that she wants a convertible for her next car jp vllyoak resun com jeff perry writes fyi just last week the pbs show motor week gave the results of what they thought were the best cars for in the convertible category the honda civic del sol achieved this honor the one down side i see with the car is its interior it looks inexpensive and dull i own a del sol and i must vouch for the interior i really looks snazzy when the top is off i looks a lot better in person than on the television i saw that motorweek as well needless to say i was smiling a bit by the time it was over watch out for that darned convertible tan tho diane dspalme mke ab comm
rec.autos	re vw passat advice sought in article apr remus rutgers edu hong remus rutgers edu hyunki hong writes i am currently in the car market and would like opinions on a vw passat glx how does it compare to a toyota camry i thought the car looked very solid stable and european only disappointment so far is that that it doesn t offer an airbao my next question is why isn t vw offering automobiles with airbags should i pay the extra three thousand for a bmw is even though it is smaller and less powerful than than the passat i think vw got caught out on the airbag thing it s only been in the last year or two that airbags have become a significant selling feature vw assumed that automatic belts would satisfy govt requirements for passive restraint but didn t guess that the merican consumer would actually make buy decisions based on the presence of an airbag vw is really hurting right now in the us market check out the article in last week s autoweek about the crisis at vw golfs and jettas will be coming from the plant in mexico but they don t have the quality at that facility as per normal vw practice the us launch of the jetta iii is delayed again and again until a good chunk of the useful life of the design is spent i think that passats come from germany so there is not the same quality and availability issue it s a nice car with a nice engine whether vw will be a player in the us market in two year s time is a different question i ll leave the passat camry flamewar for someone else
rec.autos	re auto air conditioning without freon in article apr ntuix ntu ac sg mgqlu ntuix ntu ac sg max lu writes we are working on gas solid adsorption air con system for auto applications in this kind of system the energy for regenerating the adsorbent is from the exhaust gas anyone interested in this mail email me or follow up this thread we may have a discussion on prospects of this technology ok i ll bite how is this supposed to work tim
rec.autos	re chevy sprint in wfnmbjg wboe l c andrew cmu edu srinagesh gavirneni sg andrew cmu edu writes i have a chevy sprint with a c and doors it s odometer turned k and the sensor light started blinking i went to the dealer and he said it was a maintenance light saying i need to change the oxygen sensor he said it is to be changed every k but since i bought the car when it had k i don t know if the same thing happened at k and k he quoted for the part and to install it the part cost outside but the mechanic i went to could not fix it saying the sensor is placed too deep in the engine parts he suggested i wait till it malfunctions before i do anything if anyone out there owns a chevy sprint i want to know how they got their oxygen sensors changed also did you face any problem with fixing it without the dealer s help also what are the results of the oxygen sensor malfunction any help would be greatly apprecisted thanks i sold my sprint last april with k on it i d driven it since the previous july putting k miles on it the sensor light used to light up regularly starting about k miles after i bought it my brother and i rebuilt the engine but used all of the original equipment so i suppose the sensor could have used replacement performance hah if you could call it that did not change perhaps emissions increased but how much emissions could a ca registered cylinder engine produce that was a neat car i held the engine block easily in one hand has anyone ever driven the turbo variant just curious adam edwards awds ltd uhura cc rochester edu
rec.autos	re i m getting a car i need opinions in article qqp o ba usenet ins cwru edu cf cleveland freenet edu chun h ung wan writes in a previous article ip ns cc lehigh edu danny phornprapha says i have as my budget i m looking for a sports or gt car what do you think would be the best buy i m looking for specific models thanks danny hey you programmers out there danny phornprapha please consider this ip lehigh edu bugs are another endangered earth lucc student konsultant species needing your protection work for an all out sports car i d go for the rx without the sports suspension which is too stiff for a little more practicality and more comfort the nissan zx turbo is a good buy and for a good dose of luxury the lexus sc is perfect with a manual transmission of course however the toyota supra is coming out soon and if you like it s looks the performance is supposed to be great almost race car like i don t particulary like the mitsubishi gt s or the dodge stealths as they are too heavy and aren t very nimble handlers for a sports car a motion picture major at the brooks institute of photography ca santa barbara and a foreign student from kuala lumpur malaysia the mind is the forerunner of all states the only thing about the zx turbo and new supra is they re about k or more over his budget be good and you will be lonely mark twain
rec.autos	sport utility vehical comparisons any opinions i just read articals on this in road and track and car and driver is that one mag or two b and i was wondering if people out there have any opinions that differed from what these mags have to say i m looking at the following three suv s anyone who s driven all three have any strong opinions ford explorer toyota runner nissan pathfinder currently i m leaning toward the toyota cause i ve had big success with toyota trucks in the past and cause i think it s the best looking of the three but i thought i d see if anyone has any strong opinions thanks karl karl elvis macrae software release support cisco systems kmac cisco com or batman cisco com dod fj shovels and rakes and implements of destruction arlo guthrie
rec.autos	re is car saftey important tcorkum bnr ca trevor corkum writes is it only me or is safety not one of the most important factors when buying a car it depends on your priorities a lot of people put higher priorities on gas mileage and cost than on safety buying unsafe econoboxes instead of volvos i personally take a middle ground the only thing i really look for is a three point seatbelt and mph bumpers i figure that mph collisions into brick walls aren t common enough for me to spend that much extra money for protection but there are lots of low speed collisions that do worry me jim frost jimf centerline com
rec.autos	re warning please read in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian j queiser writes anything if he hadn t emptied his gun into the asshole texas it s whole other country that reminds me of one of texas s ads you hear a guy speaking in french like it s a letter home then the french moves to the background and a french accented voice come to the foreground talking about how he went walking on the beach and it felt so much like home that he decided to take his shoes off and the rest of his clothes it ended with please send bail on an rec autos note does anyone carry a gun on them or keep one in their car which is bad idea isn t it if you work in a bad part of town or regularly go through one is this a loaded question i normally have an unloaded colt delta in my glove box with a loaded magazine handy which is perfectly legal in oklahoma for those times that i m travelling inter state i keep an unloaded s w magnum revolver in the glove box with a speed loader in my pocket which is legal everywhere under federal law illinois state police be hanged as i ve said before this is stricly for defense my insurance will pay to replace my car but i only have one life james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	re slick any good hmmm i was listening to the local radio expert who is amazingly enough an honest to god expert tm it s amazing what he knows and he said that based on his conversations with the inventor of slick who is no longer with the comapny due to some kind of conflict he avoids it like the plague he does recommend other teflon based type oil additives though james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	re info opinions wanted on cars in this article in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john f nielsen writes in article fibercom com rrg rtp fibercom com rhonda gaines writes i m in the market for a new car currently i own a mazda mx dx which has served me just fine however i d like to get a door car since i don t relish the thought of moving a carseat around in a door car my criteria are door a c am fm cassette quick acceleration cruise control decent rear seat legroom my husband is a footer it must also be under k preferably closer to the k range which will probably rule out the accord the cars that have caught my eye are toyota corolla toyata camry mazda pontiac grand am pontiac grand prix honda accord and civic if it s roomy enough and still comes in a door model hyundai sonata and maybe even a small oldsmobile although not the achieva all opinions benchmarks recommendations etc are welcome i really wouldn t consider the grand am achevia skylark all the same since they are very bad in frontal collsions and don t have any other really outstanding qualities john i really must object to that last statement having a lot of experience with a grand am coupe i can firmly state that they do have a lot of outstanding qualities very reliable throughout great layout of controls and components very roomy considering the exterior size of the car they look sharp inside and out the v that i drive has exceptional power and drivability compared to other similar cars that i have driven all in all it s a fun to drive dependable and reasonably priced vehicle please don t knock it with a statement like that unless you back it up with specific reasons why you feel that way rob bell plains nodak edu john nielsen magnus consultant to you baldrick the renaissance was just something that happened to other people wasn t it the black adder
rec.autos	what car is this i was wondering if anyone out there could enlighten me on this car i saw the other day it was a door sports car looked to be from the late s early s it was called a bricklin the doors were really small in addition the front bumper was separate from the rest of the body this is all i know if anyone can tellme a model name engine specs years of production where this car is made history or whatever info you have on this funky looking car please e mail thanks il brought to you by your neighborhood lerxst
rec.autos	re warning please read 
rec.autos	re sport utility vehical comparisons any opinions i just read articals on this in road and track and car and driver is that one mag or two b and i was wondering if people out there have any opinions that differed from what these mags have to say depending on how you plan to use your suv i might recommend also browsing trailer boats and one or more of those pickup shotgun and wd magazines the car rags mostly seem to consider recently graded pea gravel to be offroading and ten sacks of redwood chips to be a bedload considering that most of these suvs seem to be used mostly as robust station wagons that s probably not a bad approach but if your applications are more demanding pick your information sources accordingly of the three vehicles on your short list explorer runner pathfinder i d recommend the runner as being closely based on a rather robust pickup and the explorer for being comfortably carlike don t know much about the pathfinder good luck joe just another personal opinion from the people s republic of berkeley
rec.autos	re opel owners in article c sxi j b news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes gibbonsa fraser sfu ca darren gibbons writes i m looking for information on opel cars now you ask which model well the sad truth is i m not entirely sure but it s a two seater with roll over headlights hard top and really sporty looking my friend has one sitting in his yard in really nice condition body wise but he transmission has seized up on him so it hasn t run for a while does anyone have any info on these cars the engine compartment looks really tight to work on but it is in fine shape and i am quite interested in it thanks darren gibbons gibbonsa sfu ca this would be the manta would it not sold through buick dealers in the mid s as the price leader sounds a lot more like an opel gt to me i d guess that this is on the same chassis as the kadett rather than the bigger manta but i could easily be wrong i think the later kadett s were sold here as buick opels craig chintan amin llama uiuc edu chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	mr noisy engine g day people are there any mr owners or motor head gurus out there that know why my mr s engine sounds noisy the mr s engine is noisy at the best of times but not even a nice nose it s one of those very ugly noises i do an oil change every months and for about months the engine noise sounds relatively quiet during driving and idling at around the month mark after an oil change i ve been tracking this very thoroughly for months now it starts to get that very disgusting noise not so much during driving but more so during idling what s its problem also i don t know if it s just me but if noticed a little performance drop it just hasn t got the acceleration it used to any help tips would be appreciated worried
rec.autos	re super mega automobile sighting s exotics together in article qvgg innl r phantom gatech edu graham e thomas grahamt phantom gatech edu writes alright beat this automobile sighting i can top that one friday afternoon i look out my window in long beach ca what do i see but the new ferrari i looks like a mix between the ragtop testarossa sp and the batman car it seems ferrari had their annual dinner at the place downstairs sweet car j b
rec.autos	re warning please read sorry about that last post my server neglected to send the message can we please keep this group to automotive topics thank you
rec.autos	re opel owners boyle cactus org craig boyle writes in article c sxi j b news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes gibbonsa fraser sfu ca darren gibbons writes i m looking for information on opel cars now you ask which model well the sad truth is i m not entirely sure but it s a two seater with roll over headlights hard top and really sporty looking my friend has one sitting in his yard in really nice condition body wise but he transmission has seized up on him so it hasn t run for a while does anyone have any info on these cars the engine compartment looks really tight to work on but it is in fine shape and i am quite interested in it thanks darren gibbons gibbonsa sfu ca this would be the manta would it not sold through buick dealers in the mid s as the price leader sounds a lot more like an opel gt to me i d guess that this is on the same chassis as the kadett rather than the bigger manta but i could easily be wrong i think the later kadett s were sold here as buick opels craig i think the manta is the european name for the gt i m pretty sure that the only kadett s sold here were are the pontiac lemans i think the gt is just an early s to mid s manta chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	re opel owners in article c sxi j b news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes gibbonsa fraser sfu ca darren gibbons writes i m looking for information on opel cars now you ask which model well the sad truth is i m not entirely sure but it s a two seater with roll over headlights hard top and really sporty looking gibbonsa sfu ca this would be the manta would it not sold through buick dealers in the mid s as the price leader chintan amin sounds more like an opel gt neat cars fun to drive sold through buick from through if i remember correctly i believe it was in that there were some engine mods made such that parts were not interchangeable with the older models parts are thus much harder to come by for the later models parts in general are not too difficult to find at one time jc whitney carried some stuff including a brand new not remfg long block either a gt or a kharman ghia hmm that spelling looks hosed will be my next project mark
rec.autos	re for hail damage a record in article apr cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes my integra was hit hard in the hailstorm in austin tx the insurance company cut me a check for deductible last week is this a record anybody else had settlements from the same hailstorm yet craig rumor has it that a guy at dell computer had his miata totalled so that would be about k john steczkowski stecz pencom com the constitution grants you the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness it does not attempt to guarantee that everyone will be happy
rec.autos	new talon in article is there such a thing as the new eagle talon i heard from a freind that the new talons have been released is this true and if so what are the differences between the and any opinions i would appreciate any replies and i would also prefer e mail thanks hasit s mehta university of rochester primus sucks hm b uhura cc rochester edu i do believe in captain crunch for i am the frizzle fry
rec.autos	re changing oil by self hanguyen megatest com ha nguyen writes in article apr progress com damelio progress com stephen d amelio writes bmoss grinch sim es com brent woody moss writes you could take a screw driver and hammer and start punching holes in various locations and when some black slippery stuff starts pouring out then you would know that the oil drain plug is nearby within a foot or two anyway close the holes with toilet paper before refileing with oil though you have to refill the engine with oil wow no wonder i can t get an engine to last more than my first oil change don t forget to punch holes in the radiator too it will spray nice refreshing water on the engine and keep it nice cool steve gee you really make me confused what is radiator where is it located what does it look like will it release any radiation since it sounds like radia tion genera tor when you punch holes of course it releases radiation thats why your car goes faster when you punch the holes in it all that radiation gets on your engine and gives it pep scientific term you get more horsepower torque too if you don t know what hp torque are you can read mile long threads on the subject but they are all wrong horsepower is how much power a horse can make pulling a subaru and torque is a name invented by craftsman for a wrench steve
rec.autos	re warning please read in smn b w w cybernet cse fau edu vlasis cybernet cse fau edu vlasis theodore writes tobias convex com allen tobias writes in article apr virginia edu ejv j virginia edu erik vel this happened about a year ago on the washington dc beltway snot nosed drunken kids decided it would be really cool to throw huge rocks down on cars from an overpass four or five cars were hit there were several serious injuries and sadly a small girl sitting in the front seat of one of them was struck in the head by one of the larger rocks i don t recall if she made it but i think she was comatose for a month or so and doctors weren t holding out hope that she d live what the hell is happening to this great country of ours i can see boyhood pranks of peeing off of bridges and such but pound rocks has our society really stooped this low erik velapold society as we have known it it coming apart at the seams the basic reason is that human life has been devalued to the point were killing someone is no big deal kid s see hundreds on murderous acts on tv we can abort children on demand and kill the sick and old at will so why be surprised when some kids drop lbs rocks and kill people they don t care because the message they hear is life is cheap at well people fortunatly or unfortunatly only the us is experiencing the devaluation of human life among developed nations i am an american but i was raised in europe where the worst thing that can happen to somebody is get his car broken into or have his pocket picked by slaves or russian refugees of cource there will be some nutcases but thats extremely rare i e in greece you can walk through any neighborhood at any time during the night without even worrying in germany you can walk the sidewalks at am and not even look behind your back at the sanitation crews that clean the streets to a sparkling cleen whoever of you have been there you know what i am saying i dont have any easy answers but if we as a nation do some selfcritisism we might get somewhere of course these postings sould be in soc culture us but if we reduce crime here it ll mean less car insurance rates thus we could spend more money on modifing our cars now my posting is rec autos tech revelant vlasis theodore software engineer idb mobile communications sig under development i remember this happening on the i through michigan and ohio several years back a group of guys in an old beater would rear end a car usually out of state or canadians you stop and they smack you with a bb bat at least they didn t kill you for the sake of a car i think the cops put out decoys and this calmed down for a while vlasis are you safe walking through germany if you are a refugee
rec.autos	monthly posting buick grand national regal t type mailing list monthly posting regarding the buick grand national regal t type mailing list this list is for owners and other parties interested in the buick grand nationals regal t types gnxs and other turbocharged regals discussions include technical information and parts sources particular emphasis is given to performance enhancements and racing to join or ask about the mailing list contact gnttype request srvsn monsanto com scott keller the agricultural group of monsanto company sekell bb t monsanto com ka wch packet ka wch k pfx mo usa na keeper of the buick grand national regal t type mailing list
rec.autos	ignition kill i just wanted to thank all the netters out there who either posted a response or sent e mail regarding my ignition kill question now that i know how simple a procedure it is it looks like i ll be paying my local pep boys a visit this weekend mik
rec.autos	re sho clutch question grinding noise in article unisql uucp wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes in article c h f ldu news rich bnr ca jcyuhn crchh nosubdomain nodomain james yuhn writes that s not the clutch you re hearing its the gearbox early shos have a lot of what is referred to as gear rollover noise you can generally i have one of the first shos built and mine doesn t make this noise geez wharfie do you have to be so difficult mine was built in december which qualifies as pretty dang early and it most certainly grinds away jim
rec.autos	kubelwagen the answer to your question is sort of volkswagen had a much less robust version of this army vehicle out in the early s or thereabouts it was called the volskwagen thing and was of course a convertible i havent seen many around then or now good luck mik
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time in apr slcs slb com dcd se houston geoquest slb com dan day writes in article c hhgm rm constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison writes in article apr slcs slb com dcd se houston geoquest slb com dan day writes how about those really ugly fake wheel compartments stuck onto the trunk or side or both sides of some tacky luxury cars some of em aren t fake if you re talking about the continental kit named after the lincoln continental the first car to sport one i personally would love to have a t bird with a continental kit and the supercharged v that is one of the most beautiful cars ever built imho i d go for a lincoln continental if i could find one sad part is that edsel ford designed it and look at the abortion they named after him ain t no justice okay i ll admit it looks nice on the t bird as a previous owner of and thunderbirds i m biased anyway
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time in drutx att com klf druwa att com franklinkl writes in article c hhgm rm constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison writes in article apr slcs slb com dcd se houston geoquest slb com dan day writes in article q innb ctron news ctron com smith ctron com writes it s a big aftermarket business almost no cars come from the factory with vynal any more and any fake convertible job definitely came from some aftermarket place what amazes me is how much people are willing to pay for bad taste how about those really ugly fake wheel compartments stuck onto the trunk or side or both sides of some tacky luxury cars some of em aren t fake if you re talking about the continental kit named after the lincoln continental the first car to sport one i personally would love to have a t bird with a continental kit and the supercharged v that is one of the most beautiful cars ever built imho james the continental may have been the first modern era auto to mount the spare on the rear of the car but it was hardly the first car to sport one various mounting techniques for rear mounting the spare were quite common in early automobiles both us and foreign right in the thirties both buick and packard had two spares mounted in wells in the front fenders of course that was back when the front fenders were long enough to provide room there were a couple of other marques that did this as well but memory fades ken franklin they say there s a heaven for people who wait ama and some say it s better but i say it ain t gwrra i d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints dod the sinners are lots more fun y know only the good die young
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time in c hi b c constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison writes in article apr slcs slb com dcd se houston geoquest slb com dan day writes in article apr acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes as a long time motorcyclist i have never understood what posessed auto builders to put delicate controls which must be used with skill and finesse like clutches and brakes on the floor why not hand control it s much much easier in the early days neither of these functions had power assist so only legs had enough strength to activate them since then it s been traditional and people would have a hard time getting used to anything else well where exactly would you put a hand clutch and brake on a motorcycle it s easy the handlebars have a very limited range of turning steering wheels on the other hand turn around and around and around which is fine for electrical relays like your cruise control and airbag but how many of you want to lose your clutch and or brake due to a short circuit shades of the edsel they had pushbuttons in the steering wheel hub that controlled the auto tranny it was very disconcerting to shift into reverse when turning a corner and the wires shorted there are workarounds but there s really no reason to use hand power on a car s clutch or brakes and lightening them to the point that they are finesse controls suitable for hand use would increse the mechanical complexity substantially look at power brakes and non power brakes for an example i saw an experimental car that had a joystick instead of a steering wheel that s about useless imho another automotive oddity is separate keys for trunks doors and ignitions why on earth would you want this i know i don t i want a separate trunk key for security reasons it gives me a totally separate lockable container for door and ignition ehhh the same key s ok i guess james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	re warning please read in article apr convex com tobias convex com allen tobias wrote society as we have known it it coming apart at the seams the basic reason is that human life has been devalued to the point were killing someone is no big deal kid s see hundreds on murderous acts on tv we can abort children on demand and kill the sick and old at will so why be surprised when some kids drop lbs rocks and kill people they don t care because the message they hear is life is cheap i think this is getting a little overheated highway robbers have been a part of life since the middle ages at least it s human nature to look at history through rose colored glasses but random acts of violence have been a ceaseless part of our heritage overall life is better now than it ever was then it s just that random individual acts of violence have never been historically significant and record keeping in the past was never good enough to retain them all steve wall
rec.autos	re chevy sprint in article wfnmbjg wboe l c andrew cmu edu srinagesh gavirneni sg andrew cmu edu writes i have a chevy sprint with a c and doors it s odometer turned k and the sensor light started blinking i went to the dealer and he said it was a maintenance light saying i need to change the oxygen sensor he said it is to be changed every k but since i bought the car when it had k i don t know if the same thing happened at k and k he quoted for the part and to install it the part cost outside but the mechanic i went to could not fix it saying the sensor is placed too deep in the engine parts he suggested i wait till it malfunctions before i do anything if anyone out there owns a chevy sprint i want to know how they got their oxygen sensors changed also did you face any problem with fixing it without the dealer s help also what are the results of the oxygen sensor malfunction any help would be greatly apprecisted thanks nagesh i have owned my sprint from the beginning and that sensor light comes on every k to let you know it s time for a check up when that light goes on i just take it to the delaer tell them it s that time and they work on it for hou and you pay for parts and for labor ahh what they get for labor i currently have about k on my sprint and of all the times i took it in for service i never say on the payment sheet anything about the replacement of the oxygen sensor what the heck is an oxygen sensor as far an i know of i have never had that thing replaced in my car and the car is purring like a kitten now i don t have a c mother nature does that for me and that might have something to do with it but i still never heard of an oxygen sensor the only major service job i have had on my car besides getting the tires replaced if you want to call that a service job was getting the rotor distributor and gasket replaced and that was all done within the past months what i do at k is have a good tune up let them replace what ever they need to pay the bill about and go home and don t worry about the car for another k oh i just remembered something if that little sensor light bothers you in the fuse box right below the turn signal lever up against the dash there is a swith on the right side flip that switch and the light will go off i do that so that little light won t annoy me if you can t find it look it up in the car manuel i hope that i have helped a little and good luck with the oxygen sensor thomas e mail address give me an an army of west point tjz zeus tamu edu graduates and i ll win a battle give me a handful of texas aggies creator of mot power and i ll win a war gen george s patton
rec.autos	re electronic odometers was used bmw question in article news duke edu klg mookie mc duke edu kim greer writes i was wondering if anyone can shed any light on just how it is that these electronic odometers remember the total elapsed mileage what kind of memory is stable reliable enough non volatile enough and independent enough of outside battery power to last say years or more in the life of a vehicle i m amazed that anything like this could be expected to work for this length of time especially in light of all the gizmos i work with that are doing good to work for months without breaking down somehow mk t from thomsom it has a timekeeper clock and bytes of nvram which has a lithium battery backup the battery has a life of years of poweroff operation installed in a car it could be left powered on continuously and not draw much current the battery would only be used when your auto battery was dead or had been removed side question how about the legal ramifications of selling a used car with a replaced odometer that starts over at miles after say k actual miles looks like fraud would be fairly easy for the price of a new odometer you can say it has however many miles you want to tell the buyer it has in california they have a line on the transfer of ownership form which states that the odometer mileage is correct if incorrect you are required to fill in what you know or guesstimate to be the correct mileage if you lie on this form and are caught you can be prosecuted and the buyer can sue you for the value of the mileage differential faster horses younger women older whiskey more money
rec.autos	re re aftermarket a c units les bartel s comments sorry i can t help you with your question but i do have a comment to make concerning aftermarket a c units i have a frost king or frost temp forget which aftermarket unit on my cavalier and am quite unhappy with it the fan is noisy and doesn t put out much air i will never have an aftermarket a c installed in any of my vehicles again i just can t trust the quality and performance after this experience les let me add my in i had a a c installed by the ford garage and it did not work as well as the a c that was installed by the factory in pickups identical to mine i have talked to other people that have had the same result don t know if this is just a probable with ford or what ernie smith i agree never have the dealer add anything to your car if you want a c make sure it is factory installed honda s maybe excluded many can t be bought with a c installed at the factory but i think maybe they actually use all the needed parts for a true factory install when they put one in as in bigger radiator etc or are designed properly for this in the st place anyway my point is the dealer installed a c won t be anywhere near as good as factory and the service bums will mess up your car when installing it scratches screwdriver holes in seats parts not reinstalled correctly or with all the screws etc i know a guy who has been service manager at a gm dealer for years he said never have a dealer add anything to your car except maybe floormats
rec.autos	master cylinder thanks to everyone who responded to my honda accord break question it does seem that the master cylinder is bad i will have my mechanic double check and be sure it isn t something simpler and cheaper first but from your responses it sounds like it is very likely to be the master cylinder thanks everyone joni
rec.autos	wanted opinions on mg i was wondering if anyone out in net land have any opinions on mgs in general i know they are not the most reliable cars around but summer is approaching and they are convertibles i m interested in a mg but any opinions on mgs would be appreciated thanks dave dave kai chui chu dept of elec comp eng concordia university voice de maisonneuve w h fax montreal quebec canada h g m email davec ece concordia ca
rec.autos	re another taurus sho question in article apr reed edu rseymour reed edu writes the taurus sho for those who can get it straight it is s h o as in super high output not sho as in show has a yamaha l dohc valves sho v having spoken to technical staff from ford many times i can assure you that internally at ford this car is always called the taurus show or just the show as in long o sound i still refer to it as the s h o however because it sounds better to me i assume many purist fans and owners prefer using the ford lingo tim gardner
rec.autos	re the kuebelwagen in article c k co f mentor cc purdue edu thwang mentor cc purdue edu tommy hwang writes sorry for the mis spelling but i forgot how to spell it after my series of exams and no on hand reference here is it still possible to get those cute wwii vw jeep wanna be s a replica would be great i think tkh the vw thing kubelwagen lookalike is still manufactured in mexico and possibly south america good luck importing one they probably don t meet us safety and pollution requirements there are mechanics and junkyards which specialize in vw they might be helpful for finding a thing unless the wwii re enacters have grabbed them all the wwii kubelwagen was the german equivalent of the jeep but was not wheel drive one is on display at the patton museum at fort knox kentucky also the rare schwimwagen sp amphibious version in full scale dioramas highly recommended frank reid ucs indiana edu
rec.autos	re auto air conditioning without freon in article apr research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna writes several chemists already have come up with several substitutes for r you don t hear about them because the mobile air conditioning society macs that is the people who stand to rake in that to per retrofit per automobile have mounted an organized campaign to squash those r substitutes out of existence if not ban them altogether on very shaky technical grounds at best on outright lies at worst now i m not saying you re wrong because i know that the r substitutes exist but this sounds a lot like the mpg carbs that the oil companies keep us all from getting mark
rec.autos	are there any honda groups are there any honda groups out there especially ones that deal with preludes tom spencer
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time in article c hqj unix amherst edu bhtulin unix amherst edu barak h tulin gives forth i just started reading this thread today so forgive me if it has already been mentioned but what was the deal with renault s putting the horn on the left hand turn signal stalk it was a button on the end where the washer button would be on the wiper washer stalk could the frenchies not figure out the wiring through the steering wheel or what had an alliance for a long time it was a comfortable but sluggish car i got very used to the horn on the stalk after a couple months worth of getting used to it after i bought my next car a chevy it took me for ever to get used to the horn on the steering wheel again jim grey jwg acd acd com up the irons
rec.autos	re it s a rush was re too fast in a previous article crh regent e technik tu muenchen dbp de christian huebner says brad buck viewlogic com bradford kellogg writes i think he s talking about a different form of rush evidently it s fun to be terrified but hey if you want that kind of rush try bobsledding you may only get up to or so but it makes in a car feel like a stroll in the park why should a good driver be terrified at mph the only thing i fear going at are drivers who switch to the left lane without using either rear view mirror or flashers doing to ain t a rush for me but it s fun and i get where i want to go much faster but in one point you are quite right if you are terrified at you should better not drive that fast or you ll be a hazard to others btw before you flame me read my e mail address i know what i m talking about as i live in germany bk chris crh regent e technik tu muenchen de not a flame just a point i d be scared at here not because i feel i or my car couldn t handle it but because of exactly what you said drivers who are stupid like the ones who are doing also and so they pull in right behind you at maybe car lengths oh yeah real smart this scares me in cities at when i can t see enough of the car to make it recognizable they are following too close and when i see them doing this and reading a newspaper sigh this is why america has speed limits our drivers are too dumb to realise that reading the paper should be done at breakfast or work not in their car my thoughts drew
rec.autos	re car buying story was christ another dealer service scam in article apr slcs slb com dcd se houston geoquest slb com dan day writes relates an experience similar to mine then comes the part i wish i could have videotaped as we go out the front door the sales manager shouts across the entire showroom customers and all go ahead you deserve to buy a nissan so my friend bought a sentra this kind of behavior is what i was shocked by in my experience for crying out loud how do these turkeys think they can talk to customers this way and still stay in business again i don t expect sales people to bow scrape and grovel in my presence but i sure don t expect to be abused either i was very surprised by the way the sales people talked to me and in other negotiating sessions i overheard in neighboring sales cubicles evidently their success rate is high enough that they continue to do business this way there must be a lot of people out there who are easy to intimidate on the other hand i m not sure about the one price no haggling approach that saturn and other are starting to use i guess if their fixed price is fair it s ok maybe the best approach is to do your homework before you go in find out the invoice prices of the car add a reasonable profit for the dealer offer them that price and stick to it if they get abusive just leave then don t let them try to screw you after the deal is agreed on mark
rec.autos	re braindead drivers who don t look ahead in article apr cbnewsd cb att com hhm cbnewsd cb att com herschel h mayo writes well i guess i know for sure what i meant and it is this i don t know where you drive but around here freeways are often clogged solid with large packs of semis trucks and cars of all descriptions when i close on one of these rolling clusterf s on the highway i have no desire to add my vehicle to this rolling accident looking for a place to happen if there were any way to pass it i would be passing myself however i can t as i posted before all it takes is a blown tire or some moron tramping on the brakes to turn this pack into a cloud of shredded metal flying glass and burning vehicles i want to maintain enough free space between myself and this mess to at least have a minimal chance to avoid a mass crash that means maintaining a clear space between me and it however there is no end of shortdriving morons who are dying to pass so they can add themselves and their car to the bodycount that wouldn t bother me so much except that after letting enough of these morons pass me and glue themselves to the pack ahead my interval is filled up trying to back off further does not work because the road behind me has filled up trapping my car right into an ever increasing pack now if there was any slight possibility that there was a lane open ahead i d be glad to move over but there usually is no way in hell that anybody is going anywhere so i block the would be passers not only for my own good but theirs as well even though they are often too stupid to realize it just an comment i don t like it when people decide what s good for me if you think you re going to decide anything for me you d better be carrying a badge and a gun who made you capable of determining if there is no way in hell that anybody is going anywhere why do you find it necessary to add to the problem instead of just minding your own business if someone is minding their own business i will give them all the room they want and i ll try to make things easy for them even letting them in in front of me if they ask politely with a directional on the other hand if someone like you decides they want to block me and be a general asshole you can bet your ass that i ll make life as miserable as possible for you as long as it doesn t affect anyone else who s minding their own business they have a phrase to describe someone like you self appointed traffic police just mind your own business and stay in the right lane where you belong as a rule of philosophy i don t feel particularly sorry when somebody gets offed by his own stupidity but it does worry me when some idiot is in a position to cash in my chips too h h mayo mustang gt bob pitas ush bpita ctp com up at ned epping nh cambridge ma geddy lee in yyz disclaimer these opinions are mine obviously since they end with my sig
rec.autos	re changing oil by self in article apr rtfm mlb fl us gwalker rtfm mlb fl us grays on walker writes why crawl under the car at all i have a machine i got for my boat that pulls the oil out under suction through the dip stick tube it does an excellent job and by moving the suction tube around you can get more old oil out than by using the drain plug i think i paid at e b marine the oil goes into a steel gal can wait until it cools and decant into your favorite device i use soft drink bottles easy to take them down to the local oil recycle center yeah i suppose you could do that but then you don t get the broken knuckles the rust in your eyes the oil bath and the burns from the exhaust i mean come on steve
rec.autos	re changing oil by self in article apr news cs brandeis edu andyh chaos cs brandeis edu andrew j huang writes in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu sorlin magnus acs ohio state edu steven j orlin writes i take the electrodes of the amp ohm volt meter whatever and connect one to each earlobe then symmetrically insert my fingers in each of the spark plug boots no cheating guys both hands must be used i have just a couple of questions about this technique first what firing order should i use do i start with my pointer finger or my pinky left hand or right and secondly i have a cyl and there are two cylinders unaccounted for any suggestions andy how about your two big toes and while you re at it why bother with removing the drain plug when you could remove the dipstick instead and suck it out from there with your mouth and then spit it out domain bobml msd measurex com bob lagesse senior software engineer uucp uunet mxmsd bobml measurex management systems division voice x kemper meadow drive fax cincinnati ohio usa
rec.autos	re arctic wheels auto show i want only two things from this world a plymouth and a small opec nation with which to fuel it this would be a good and just thing car smashers can just go home and sulk jacques brouillette manufacturing engineering
rec.autos	re opel owners in c t b dg news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes boyle cactus org craig boyle writes in article c sxi j b news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes gibbonsa fraser sfu ca darren gibbons writes i m looking for information on opel cars now you ask which model well the sad truth is i m not entirely sure but it s a two seater with roll over headlights hard top and really sporty looking my friend has one sitting in his yard in really nice condition body wise but he transmission has seized up on him so it hasn t run for a while does anyone have any info on these cars the engine compartment looks really tight to work on but it is in fine shape and i am quite interested in it thanks darren gibbons gibbonsa sfu ca this would be the manta would it not sold through buick dealers in the mid s as the price leader sounds a lot more like an opel gt to me i d guess that this is on the same chassis as the kadett rather than the bigger manta but i could easily be wrong i think the later kadett s were sold here as buick opels craig i think the manta is the european name for the gt i m pretty sure that the only kadett s sold here were are the pontiac lemans i think the gt is just an early s to mid s manta chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area bzzt the manta was a two door sedan in the us it had a engine was sometimes referred to as an opel manta s are also ve hot and fun cars too mliggett silver ucs indiana edu mliggett iugold bitnet junk collector toys r us kid antiauthoritarian and fan of frogs iguanas and other herps
rec.autos	aftermarket exhausts for bmw i i am in the process of looking for a half decent aftermarket sport exhaust for my bmw i so far i have found a pacesetter exhaust for and an ansa exhaust for canadian funds i was wondering if anyone could tell me anyhting about either of these exhausts or any other possible exhausts that i may be interested in my main priorities are a decent horse power increase and a nice low note to go along with that added power i was also thinking of looking into both remus and leistritz exhausts has anyone got anything to say about these i am mainly looking for the muffler only but if anyone can find a good deal on a whole kit i would be willing to go after that i also would like to know how much these would cost me in the states please mail me back if you have any information mike welker
rec.autos	re waxing a new car i just had my chrysler painted i was told to refrain from waxing it and to leave it out in the sun supposedly this let s the volatiles escape from the paint over a month or so i can smell it feet away on a hot day and lets any slight irregularites in the surface flow out as the paint remains a little soft for a while
rec.autos	mbenz series vw passat my boss is interested in a new series mercedes benz wagon does anyone have any testimonial evidence and or strong opinions on this car or line particularly i would like to hear about power manual t only reliability feel and any unusually good or bad features of the line she currently drives a vw passat and is being plagued by its electrical problems the dealer claims there is nothing wrong even though the doors have a habit of locking and unlocking them selves while you are driving down the road the automatic shoulder restraints also like to move back and forth as you move along she does not have the new larger engine and is quite dissatisfied with its lack of power the mb wagon would have to have more power and no peculiar problems such as the passat s electrical system she is also considering a saab add some letters any comparisons between the line and the mercedes would be helpful price is not an impediment jeremy j corry churchill claimed the traditions jcorry erasure sl cc emory edu of the navy are rum mutiny and sodomy my opinions are my own but i probably got them from someone else
rec.autos	van step van accessory help hello netters i would like to find out information about a device that is used on vans and trucks this device is a step that hooks onto the tire and folds up for storage i ve seen this device on tnn s shady tree mechanic i would like to know if it is a good product and i would also like the price and address of where i can purchase this product thanks george chan email syst ryevm ryerson ca
rec.autos	re importing volvo there was an article in business week not more the weeks ago on this very subject in fact the volvo was one of the cars they laid out an example for andrew e page warrior poet decision and effort the archer and arrow mac consultant the difference between what we are macintosh and dsp technology and what we want to be
rec.autos	re sho and sc in article qehi ork armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes ok i ll give you a few reasons neither car was designed to turn at those speeds neither car was designed to stop quickly from those speeds safety mechanisms were not designed for impacts at those speeds an uncontrolled environment leads to unpredictable circumstances where you might need to turn or stop with no notice do you by any chance own an sho or have access to one such that you would have any idea what it is designed for or how it handles just wondering tom pickett tpickett auspex com or compuserve com sho goze
rec.autos	re mr noisy engine in article r vofinn usenet pa dec com tomacj opco enet dec com thunderbirds are go writes are there any mr owners or motor head gurus out there that know why my mr s engine sounds noisy the mr s engine is noisy at the best of times but not even a nice nose it s one of those very ugly noises assuming yours is a non turbo mr the gruffness is characteristic of a large inline that doesn t have balance shafts i guess toyota didn t care about little details like that when they can brag about the mid engine configuration and the flashy styling myself i automatically cross out any car from consideration or recommendation which has an inline larger than liters and no balance shafts it is a good rule of thumb to keep in mind if you ever want a halfway decent engine if the noise really bugs you there is nothing else that you can do except to sell it and get a v eliot
rec.autos	re warning please read in article c joit e bcstec ca boeing com neil bcstec ca boeing com neil williams writes as long as we re on the subject several years ago myself and two others were riding in the front of a toyota pickup heading south on interstate north of seattle wa someone threw a rock of an overpass and hit our windshield not by accident i m sure it was impossible to get up to the overpass quickly to see who did it we figured it was kids reported it and left a couple of years ago it happend again and killed a guy at my company he was in his mid fourties and left behind a wife and children turned out there was a reformatory for juviniles a few blocks away they caught the year old that did it they put a cover over the overpass what else could they do execute the juvi on the grounds of the reformatory required attendendence by the rest of the inmates as soon as possible after the incident and a quick sure trial i am quite serious cause and effect nothing else will ever make a dent i don t think i ll over forget this story neil williams boeing computer services bellevue wa me neither tom mackey tomm voodoo ca boeing com boeing computer services uunet bcstec voodoo tomm m s k p o box seattle wa
rec.autos	re warning please read in article neilson apr seoul mpr ca neilson seoul mpr ca robert neilson writes sorry for the auto content but that is why low abiding citizens should have the power to protect themselves and their property using deadly force if necessary anywhere a threat is imminent steve heracleous you do have the power steve you can do it why don t you why don t you go shoot some kids who are tossing rocks onto cars make sure you do a good job though don t miss cause like they have big rocks and take it from me those kids are mean that is absolutely correct they have a streak of meanness that runs much deeper and stronger than anything i ever experienced even during the height of the s racial struggles i am absolutely convinced that there are kids out there today that have no concept of right and wrong but have the human intelligence which is turning them into the greatest predators that have ever walked the earth they will prevail unless the rest of humanity decides that it is in their best interest to stand up against these feral humans and for individuals to start taking some responsibility for their own protection in a state in which the individuals turn to the authorities and police for protection the police and government is soon composed of the very feral humans that they originally sought protection from gee i guess you touched my hot button i d better go cool off somewhere tom mackey tomm voodoo ca boeing com boeing computer services uunet bcstec voodoo tomm m s k p o box seattle wa
rec.autos	re impala ss going into production does that mean that they re gonna bring back the biscayne and bel air
rec.autos	re warning please read mchaffee dcl nxt michael t chaffee writes significantly less than the value of many automobiles and for those who will argue that the animals out there stealing cars and everything else not to mention committing completely senseless acts of violence such as rape cannot be valued in terms of money because they are human beings i submit that they are not human beings jim callison i think is on the right track and absolutely a scratch on my car bothers me more than the death of any number of scum all of you feel the same way you just won t admit it when are people going to realise that the mere fact that a piece of flesh moves and has the approximate shape of a human being does not in itself mean that it has rights
rec.autos	dirty diesels i heard the diesels are considered cleaner burning than gas engines because the emit less of carbon monoxide hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen co hc nox but they can put out a lot of particulate matter i heard something about legislation being discussed to clean up diesel emissions is there anything in the works to install scrubbers for diesels how about the feasibility of installing them on trucks and cars would it be any different than a catylitic converter i d assume easier since we re removing particulate matter instead of converting gasses let s hear people s opinions vel natarajan nataraja rtsg mot com motorola cellular arlington hts il
rec.autos	re wife wants convertible aas po cwru edu andrew a spencer writes in a previous article dspalme mke ab com diane palme x says nuet ke pts mot com keith nuetzman x p writes help my wife has informed me that she wants a convertible for her next car jp vllyoak resun com jeff perry writes fyi just last week the pbs show motor week gave the results of what they thought were the best cars for in the convertible category the honda civic del sol achieved this honor i own a del sol and i must vouch for the interior i really looks snazzy wh the top is off i looks a lot better in person than on the television i that motorweek as well needless to say i was smiling a bit by the time it was over watch out for that darned convertible tan tho i simply must inquire how can people honestly consider this car a convertible does porsche have a patent on the targa name i mean convertible to me means top down which the del sol certainly does not do it has the center that lifts out this is what i would term a targa unless porsches was gonna sue me for doing that i know the rear window rolls down but i still can hardly consider this car to be a convertible yes however with the top off and the rear window down this car is more like a convertible than a coupe think of it as a convertible with an integrated roll bar like addition jp
rec.autos	re what car is this in article apr wam umd edu lerxst wam umd edu where s my thing writes i was wondering if anyone out there could enlighten me on this car i saw the other day it was a door sports car looked to be from the late s early s it was called a bricklin the doors were really small in addition the front bumper was separate from the rest of the body this is all i know if anyone can tellme a model name engine specs years of production where this car is made history or whatever info you have on this funky looking car please e mail bricklins were manufactured in the s with engines from ford they are rather odd looking with the encased front bumper there aren t a lot of them around but hemmings motor news ususally has ten or so listed basically they are a performance ford with new styling slapped on top brought to you by your neighborhood lerxst rush fan robert seymour rseymour reed edu physics and philosophy reed college nextmail accepted artificial life project reed college reed solar energy project soltrain portland or
rec.autos	mazda dx with air am fm good deal hi netters i want to know if w o tax is a good deal for mazda dx how is the performance review so far on mazda is it a good buy please reply to me as i don t read this group often thanks in advance ravi ravi kiran puvvala the purpose of education is not merely ravi merlin dev cdx mot com the assimilation of facts but blow all motorola codex boston ma the money ravi puvvala
rec.autos	re opel owners in article c t b dg news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes boyle cactus org craig boyle writes in article c sxi j b news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes gibbonsa fraser sfu ca darren gibbons writes i m looking for information on opel cars now you ask which model well the sad truth is i m not entirely sure but it s a two seater with roll over headlights hard top and really sporty looking my friend has one sitting in his yard in really nice condition body wise but he transmission has seized up on him so it hasn t run for a while does anyone have any info on these cars the engine compartment looks really tight to work on but it is in fine shape and i am quite interested in it thanks darren gibbons gibbonsa sfu ca this would be the manta would it not sold through buick dealers in the mid s as the price leader sounds a lot more like an opel gt to me i d guess that this is on the same chassis as the kadett rather than the bigger manta but i could easily be wrong i think the later kadett s were sold here as buick opels craig i think the manta is the european name for the gt i m pretty sure well the european manta and us gt have entirely different bodies there is little or no chance that they are the same the manta went through several generations as the coupe version of the ascona and was ok in its time that the only kadett s sold here were are the pontiac lemans i think the not true the kadett has been in and out of the us market over the years the lemans old kadett is only the latest version craig gt is just an early s to mid s manta different cars one looks like a sports car the other is a coupe chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	re for hail damage a record in article apr pencom com stecz pencom com writes in article apr cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes my integra was hit hard in the hailstorm in austin tx the insurance company cut me a check for deductible last week is this a record anybody else had settlements from the same hailstorm yet craig rumor has it that a guy at dell computer had his miata totalled so that would be about k i guess it either had the top down or the hail ripped through the top as you could not do k worth of hail damage to a miata body craig john steczkowski stecz pencom com the constitution grants you the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness it does not attempt to guarantee that everyone will be happy
rec.autos	dealer cheated me with wrong odometer reading need help here is a story i bought a car about two weeks ago i finally can get hold of the previous owner of the car and got all maintanence history of the car in between and the instrument pannel of the car has been replaced and the odometer also has been reset to zero therefore the true meter reading is the reading before replacement plus current mileage that shows mile difference comparing to the mileage on the odometer disclosure from the dealer never told me anything about that important story i hope that i can return the car with full refund do u think this is possible does anyone have similar experiences any comments will be appreciated thanks yongje u washington edu
rec.autos	insurance question i m about to buy a new car and finance some of it since i paid cash for the last car i bought i did not have to worry about whether or not i had a good amount of insurance on it because of a bank loan i just put the amount that i wanted not what a bank would have wanted friends are telling me that banks require some kind of insurance on the car to protect it since it is collateral on loans is this true can that insurance be gotten as part of my other insurance i assume i don t have to pay a dealer for extra insurance over my regular car insurance am i correct i hear about accident health type insurance at the dealers and i am pretty sure these are just money makers for them i just want to verify that i don t have to buy these at all or any other types of extras what do i have to pay for car tax license anything else ellen
rec.autos	re ad said nissan altima best seller boyle cactus org writes in article qv mn dql menudo uh edu thang harebell egr uh edu chin heng thang writes recently i saw an ad for the altima which says that it is the best seller for the past months is that true i too was puzzled by this obvious untruth what i think is going on is that nissan claims that the altima is the best selling new car namelplate in the us i think i have this near verbatim lee iaccoca s statistics dept would have been proud of that sentence what they mean i think is that of all totally new models i e cars never sold before in any form the altima is the best seller thereby eliminating accord taurus etc this is from the same people who make the claim that our minivan is outsellin theirs implying that the nissan quest murcury villager are out selling the chrysler mini vans not only is this not true at all but it was a stupid claim to make the commercial was part of the introduction campaign for the vans kind of a bold statement to make when you haven t even sold one yet eh and i thought buick and oldsmobile where bad shame on you nissan and mercury any other interpretations craig does anyone has anyhting regarding the of cars sold for the past months tony
rec.autos	w rec autos there is just something disconcerting about the name of this group
rec.autos	re opel owners by the way what do people think about the opel calibra
rec.autos	re too fast in article qqv k e g usenet ins cwru edu aas po cwru edu andrew a spencer writes in a previous article callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison says in article qn ev g usenet ins cwru edu aas po cwru edu andrew a spencer writes in a previous article wrat unisql uucp wharfie says that shows how much you know about anything the brakes on the sho are very different inch or i forget discs all around vented in front the normal taurus setup is smaller discs front drums rear one i saw had vented rears too it was on a lot of course the sales man was a fool titanium wheels yeah right then later told me they were magnesium more believable but still crap since al is so m uch cheaper and just as good i tend to agree tho that this still doesn t take the sho up to standard for running on a regular basis the brakes should be bigger like or so take a look at the ones on the corrados where they have braking regulations well let s see my t bird sc has a computer controlled adjustable suspension wheel abs disks vented front rear point rears also vented belts sturdy passenger compartment aerodynamics good enough for nascar without too much change hp ft lb supercharged l v wheel independent suspension plus limited slip differential with a top speed in excess of mph and rides on v rated tires i have yet to find r s in any other speed rating is that up to standard if not why not james i really hate to do this but try reading the damn posts then you shouldn t ve done it try answering the damn question i am well aware of the fact that there was no mention of the sc in there never was a t bird mentioned the discussion was about sho s and stangs not being up to spec i do not know about t birds i only know that the specs quoted for the sho by previous poster sounded a little anemic for me to say that it was up to snuff this does not kn any way disencourage me from wishing to own one nor does it make it a bad car it merely means that i think ford could have added that extra bit of safety and tossed in larger brakes as the wheels are plenty large enough for them to fit if memory serves right which it may very well not and the motor plenty powerful enough to need it well my point was that the sc and the sho both have very similar characteristics front and rear disks abs on the sho high output v wheel independent suspension very good aerodynamics point harness fat rubber and mph top speed if one of them is up to standard and i think the sc is but the other isn t then why is that no flamage just curiousity james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences another user recently requested info about the shadow sundance cars but i haven t seen any public responses what are people s experiences with these cars daryl daryl biberdorf n gjm d biberdorf tamu edu sola gratia sola fide sola scriptura
rec.autos	re changing oil by self bobml mxmsd msd measurex com bob lagesse writes long silly discussion deleted and while you re at it why bother with removing the drain plug when you could remove the dipstick instead and suck it out from there with your mouth and then spit it out this suggestion isn t as far fetched as it sounds years ago in another time and place i used to do oil changes in boats powered by automotive engines in many cases there was no way to get any sort of a tray under the oil pan because it was boxed in by the bottom of the hull and various floation chambers on each side and if you did get something there you d spill all the oil out of it for sure trying to get it back out again so we used a small pump powered by an electric drill to suck the oil out the dipstick hole there was a long thin hose on the inlet side designed to fit down the dipstick tube and another thicker shorter hose on the outlet side that you put into any convenient container i m sure these gadgets are still available from marine hardware suppliers if you want one mart l molle computer systems research institute university of toronto toronto canada m s a
rec.autos	re warning please read in article c jgc ajj dove nist gov keys starchild ncsl nist gov lawrence b keys writes this isn t anything new back in i was driving under a high overpass at night on i in san diego when i caught a glimpse of someone on the overpass as i passed under a rock slammed against the metal between the winshield and right front window my girlfriend was in the seat next to it i called the police from the next exit but i doubt if they were found about five years ago in san diego someone was put into a coma from a brick being thrown through his sunroof as he was driving and subsequently crashed i don t think he ever came out of the coma and i haven t heard anything about it for a couple years i know that this isn t the group for it but since you brought it up does anyone have any idea why they haven t bombed the waco cult probably because there are many children there also the minor fact that other than defending themselves from some people attacking them they haven t threatened or attacked anyone outside the compound in years being a promiscuous religious nut does not constitute grounds for a mass murder of koresh and his followers sorry for posting this to this group but i thought the previous post needed a rebuttal if you follow up to this portion please cross post and direct follow ups to a more appropriate newsgroup boyd johnson nosc spectra com johnson san diego california intermittent newsfeed at best and only to selected groups my opinions certainly don t match those of my employer
rec.autos	re used bmw question in article apr ua ix ua edu rpaturi ho eng ua edu ravi writes hi i am dying to get the answer for the pricing polocy of a dealer here in san jose california i moved to caal from al you moved from alabama to california my sympathies year model description milage price black looks good k k sp manual ac cassette sun roof white same as aboove k k make sure that they have all maintenance records oil should be changed every months the mileage on the cars is fine be sure that these have the valve engine the valve is a bmw in name only didn t you have a line on a i for k jump on it phil mueller pamuelle ingr com or pamuelle nc b ingr com ama dod suzuki bandit bmw r
rec.autos	re saturn puzzled by its pricing in article mar magnus acs ohio state edu jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john f nielsen writes in article pcgv oj armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john f nielsen writes because i want to get the lowest price possible it s called capitalism i have news for you capitalism is the practice of maximizing profits same difference if you lower your costs you increase your profits personally i m not at all bothered by the saturn pricing scheme if i don t want to pay as much as they re selling it for i can go buy a different car from a different dealer and they get nothing that s competition for you if the dealer can be competitive charging what they do and making that kind of profit that s capitalism at it s best and more power to em i d rather have the consumer dictate what things will cost not the dealers sorry but neither dictates the cost it s a negotiation whether it s up front at a honda dealership in an all out dickering war or more removed on a larger economic scale ie if saturn can t sell at it s price the price drops or the company stops building them it remains a negotiated value controlled by market forces to think that the consumer controls price is ludicrous if the consumer controled price then cars would be free and no one would build cars regards charles within the span of the last few weeks i have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person
rec.autos	gm may build toyota badged car this appeared today in the the japan economic journal reported gm plans to build a toyota badged car in the us for sale in japan bruce macdonald vp of gm corporate communications yesterday confirmed that gm president and ceo jack smith had a meeting recently with tatsuro toyoda president of toyota this meeting the two discussed business opportunities to increase gm exports to japan including further component sales as well as completed vehicle sales parts sales the two presidents agreed conceptually to pursue an arrangement whereby gm would build a toyota badged right hand drive vehicle in the us for sale by toyota in japan a working group has been formed to finalize model specifications exact timing and other details
rec.autos	re changing oil by self in article apr news cs brandeis edu andyh chaos cs brandei s edu andrew j huang writes in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu sorlin magnus ac s ohio state edu steven j orlin writes i take the electrodes of the amp ohm volt meter whatever and connect one to each earlobe then symmetrically insert my fingers in each of the spark plug boots no cheating guys both hands must be used i have just a couple of questions about this technique first what firing order should i use do i start with my pointer finger or my pinky left hand or right place your hands flat on a table and arrange the firing order from left to right and secondly i have a cyl and there are two cylinders unaccounted for any suggestions well you have friends don t you cylinders might be more excitement than one person can take
rec.autos	re bmw series for in article qll innp r uwm edu qazi csd csd uwm edu aamir hafeez qazi writes from article eabu dialin slip nts uci edu by eabu orion oac uci edu alvin is there going to be a bmw in could be isn t the liter six supposed to be enlarged to liters in the not too distant future makes sense since the new mercedes benz engines go from l to a l nothing in between btw i beleive the numbers on those mb engines are and hp respectively the one upmanship in hp might induce bmw to create a larger six also the e has lagged behind the er for some time wrt hp i am sure the bavarians wouldn t want to be shown up by the schwabians ps those mb engines haven t been released over here yet daniel
rec.autos	re warning please read in article c k m ku constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison writes if i hear someone screwing with my car ie setting off the alarm and taunting me to come out you can be damn sure that my colt delta elite will also be coming with me it s not the screwing with the car that d get them shot it s the potential physical danger if they re taunting like that it s very possible that they also intend to rob me and or do other physically harmful things here in houston last year a woman heard the sound of someone in her garage so she went to investigate with a gun in her hand she found a guy in the process of stealing her bicycle she quite reasonably asked him to stop he refused began taunting her and as the woman was quoted in the police report he told me to go ahead and shoot him so i did the moron survived and no charges were filed against the woman
rec.autos	re it s a rush was re too fast why should a good driver be terrified at mph the only thing i fear going at are drivers who switch to the left lane without using either rear view mirror or flashers doing to ain t a rush for me but it s fun and i get where i want to go much faster in defense of the drivers who are in the right lane here in the states people simply do not expect when they are driving to be overtaken at a speed differential of mph i don t think this is because they are stupid of course there are exceptions they are just programmed because of the mph limit do you in the states when you look in the rear view always calculate future positions of cars based on a speed differential dont get me wrong i love to drive in the left lane fast but when i overtake cars who are on the right i slow down a tad bit if i were to rely on the judgement of the other car to recognize the speed differential i would be the stupid one btw if no one else is around then go for it
rec.autos	squeekin windows consumer reports once wrote about the s blazer that it shook and rattled like a tired taxi cab there is one noise that is expecially irritating the back window squeaks i believe its because the whole tailgate assembly and window are not solid anyway has anyone had the same problem and have you found any fixes arlen martin at t microelectronics att attme stcarm
rec.autos	re mazda just does not feel right in article mxm msi umn edu mxm s msi umn edu ram v mohan writes i ve a mazda with about miles on it recently i do not get a good feeling of the road esp on a wet pavement when driving the car it feels as if the car is wandering and there is no grip on the road the tires are the original ones and have threads on them passes the penny head test i had the shocks and struts and alignment checked and things are fine however i feel like that i dont have the grip of the road and feel as if the car is wandering esp on turns any help in this is appreciated thanks two shots at it check the tires again if you can see the wear bars you re down to problem area and some tires pass a penny test between the bars that s no guide at all your problem in the wet is call hydroplaning you may not have enough tread left to channel water out from under the tire so it goes fishy on you as it lifts off the road tires age in particular soft tire compounds get harder as you put them thru more heat cycles harder compounds don t grip as well as soft ones effect is very noticable on tires that get very hot very often such as in competition but it hits all tires bob benson
rec.autos	re it s a rush was re too fast gwm spl spl loral com gary w mahan writes why should a good driver be terrified at mph the only thing i fear going at are drivers who switch to the left lane without using either rear view mirror or flashers doing to ain t a rush for me but it s fun and i get where i want to go much faster in defense of the drivers who are in the right lane here in the states people simply do not expect when they are driving to be overtaken at a speed differential of mph i don t think this is because they are stupid of course there are exceptions they are just programmed because of the mph limit do you in the states when you look in the rear view always calculate future positions of cars based on a speed differential dont get me wrong i love to drive in the left lane fast but when i overtake cars who are on the right i slow down a tad bit if i were to rely on the judgement of the other car to recognize the speed differential i would be the stupid one btw if no one else is around then go for it keep up the good work guys afterall the cops need to be occupied with someone so that lesser mortals like us can be left alone bhaskar orion me uiuc edu
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time in article drutx att com klf druwa att com franklinkl writes in article c hhgm rm constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison writes in article apr slcs slb com dcd se houston geoquest slb com dan day writes in article q innb ctron news ctron com smith ctron com writes it s a big aftermarket business almost no cars come from the factory with vynal any more and any fake convertible job definitely came from some aftermarket place what amazes me is how much people are willing to pay for bad taste how about those really ugly fake wheel compartments stuck onto the trunk or side or both sides of some tacky luxury cars some of em aren t fake if you re talking about the continental kit named after the lincoln continental the first car to sport one i personally would love to have a t bird with a continental kit and the supercharged v that is one of the most beautiful cars ever built imho james the continental may have been the first modern era auto to mount the spare on the rear of the car but it was hardly the first car to sport one various mounting techniques for rear mounting the spare were quite common in early automobiles both us and foreign the lincoln continental was the first car to sport the continental kit the continental kit is not to be confused with ye olde outside mounting bracket a continental kit is a very specific ornament storage compartment the continental has a neat trunk it looks rather like a laundry hamper imho james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	re sho and sc in article apr ganglion ann arbor mi us david ganglion ann arbor mi us david hwang writes in article unisql uucp wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes in article chrissc qb d b netcom com chriss netcom com chris silvester writes wagon which i have heard is somehow slightly faster than the coupe wagon has an automatic it s slower could be due to the rear end ratio also usually automatics have different rear ends than manuals from my limited experience anyways you ll have fun looking for the rear end gears on an sho the taurus is a front wheel drive vehicle i went back and checked the article again the sho wagon is quicker than the sho automatic but significantly slower than the real sho why anyone would order an sho with an automatic transmission is beyond me if you can t handle a stick you should stick with a regular taurus and leave the sho to real drivers that is not to say that there aren t real drivers who can t use the stick eg disabled persons but they aren t in any position to use an sho anyway i would be willing to bet that if we removed the automatic transmissions from all performance type cars like the l mustangs camaros and the like we d cut down on the number of accidents each year autos are fine for sedate little sedans but they have no business in performance cars imho james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	is this a good price hi everybody i will buy a honda civic ex coupe the dealer ask for it including a c installed but not including stereo tax registration fees i live in mexico so i don t have time to go to a lot of dealers and compare their prices the dealer is in mcallen tx is this a good price for that car if not how much should i pay for it please e mail asap if you don t want to post thanks a lot orlando pugliese opuglies mtecv mty itesm mx orlando pugliese n instituto tecnologico y de estudios superiores de monterrey depto de informacion academica monterrey n l mexico ext
rec.autos	re plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences in article qmq tinn l tamsun tamu edu dlb tamuts tamu edu daryl biberdorf writes another user recently requested info about the shadow sundance cars but i haven t seen any public responses what are people s experiences with these cars daryl they are pretty much junk stay away from them they will be replaced next year with all new models
rec.autos	re car buying story was christ another dealer service scam from article apr newsgate sps mot com by markm bigfoot sps mot com mark monninger this kind of behavior is what i was shocked by in my experience for crying out loud how do these turkeys think they can talk to customers this way and still stay in business again i don t expect sales people to bow scrape and grovel in my presence but i sure don t expect to be abused either i was very surprised by the way the sales people talked to me and in other negotiating sessions i overheard in neighboring sales cubicles evidently their success rate is high enough that they continue to do business this way there must be a lot of people out there who are easy to intimidate a couple of months ago i went to a dealership to test drive a car afterwards we sat down to discuss prices i explained that i wanted a car just like the one i drove but in a different color he said he could get one exactly like i wanted from the dealer network within a day we then negotiated a price and signed the deal next day i get a call he explains that they goofed and they had neglected to take into account a price increase the last price increase had occurred over months prior to my visit if i still wanted the car i would have to fork over another as an alternative they would honor the price if i bought the car i test drove which had been sitting around for months and had a few miles on it i said goodbye this was a good example of how they can lowball you and still cover their butts it s too bad more people don t demand honesty or these types of dealers would no longer be in business the next dealership i went to was straightforward and honest first thing the salesman said was lets s see what you have for dealer cost and work out how much profit i should make the deal went through with no problems steve
rec.autos	re electronic odometer in article c fp b co megatest com alung megatest com aaron lung writes if i m not mistaken altering the odometer is illegal furthermore i surmise it ll be tough to alter bmw s odometer if you got at it some of the newer bmw s have electronic odometers making it even more tamperproof on the cars mentioned series from the late s the electronic odometer is really a mechanical drum type odometer that is driven by pulses from a speed sensor on the rear axle these pulses are converted into mechanical pulses that turn the odometer and speedometer no way changing or erasing an eprom is going to change the mileage reading it also means the odometer is just as easy or hard to change as any other mechanical odometer on the other hand it is a bit easier to disconnect the speed sensor and run the car with no speedometer or odometer reading a simple switch will do the job it also will disable the speed limiter which will enable the car to reach it s full speed alan l peterman hm work al qiclab scn rain com it s odd how as i get older the days are longer but the years are shorter
rec.autos	insurance says car is totalled on wednesday morning another driver decided to illegally turn left in front of me doing great damage to my car honda civic i have yet to pay off the car and the body shop says the insurance company wants to total the car i haven t been able to get in touch with the person handling my claim so i checked on some things my payout is blue book retail is loan value is trade in value is could anyone give me any advice on what i should could do if the insurance company does not give me a reasonable amount for the loss of the car thanks james baker baker dfwvx dallas geoquest slb com
rec.autos	options that would be great to have a list of options that would be useful they can be existing options on a car or things you d like to have tripmeter great little gadget lets you keep rough track of mileage makes a good second guesser for your gas gauge full size spare built in mountings and power systems for radar detectors a fitting that allows you to generate household current with the engine running and plug ins in the trunk engine compartment and cabin feel free to add on regards charles x within the span of the last few weeks i have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person
rec.autos	dumb options list the idea here is to list pointless options you know stuff you get on a car that has no earthly use power windows add as you wish regards charles within the span of the last few weeks i have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person
rec.autos	re it s a rush was re too fast in a previous article gwm spl spl loral com gary w mahan says why should a good driver be terrified at mph the only thing i fear going at are drivers who switch to the left lane without using either rear view mirror or flashers doing to ain t a rush for me but it s fun and i get where i want to go much faster in defense of the drivers who are in the right lane here in the states people simply do not expect when they are driving to be overtaken at a speed differential of mph i don t think this is because they are stupid of course there are exceptions they are just programmed because of the mph limit do you in the states when you look in the rear view always calculate future positions of cars based on a speed differential dont get me wrong i love to drive in the left lane fast but when i overtake cars who are on the right i slow down a tad bit if i were to rely on the judgement of the other car to recognize the speed differential i would be the stupid one just to satiate my curiosity why would this make you the stupid one it seems to me everybody should be aware enough of what is going on you do not need to calculate the future position you need to look at your mirrors a little more if you glance around you will be able to tell how much faster than you the car is going maybe not precisely but well enough to know if you should let him around before you try to pass i know what you are talking about about the other driver being startled because i myself have been startled by drivers cruising by at around mph when i m doin the problem though as i saw it was not their fault for barreling around me but my fault for not paying the attention to my task at hand that i should have been oddly enough since the nd time happened x in around mo when i d had my liscence for around mo i haven t been startled and i ve been passed by cars doing roughly twice the speed of my car another odd occurance is the fact that this only seems to happen on long trips and if i drive along with them it doesn t happen at all even on the long trips adrenaline will do that to you i ve had bad cop experiences with speeding so anything over the limit is adrenalizing for me scared i ll get caught maybe they should raise the limit so we can pay better attention just curious and my otwo drew
rec.autos	re squeekin windows arlen r martin arm cbnewsm cb att com wrote consumer reports once wrote about the s blazer that it shook and rattled like a tired taxi cab there is one noise that is expecially irritating the back window squeaks i believe its because the whole tailgate assembly and window are not solid anyway has anyone had the same problem and have you found any fixes i can relate to this i ve tried everything on my greasing every point wd etc grease on the two cheap hinges on the tailgate seems to quiet it down for a time until the grease works out of the hinges hinge pins appear to be made out of penny nails another vibration seems to get worse with age and that is a vibration in the transmission in th gear my s has k miles on it i bought it new treated it very easily no fast off road stuff can t gm build chevies like they used to ford explorers look nice until you look at the price jim burrill
rec.autos	re saturn s pricing policy i just ordered a saturn sl after considering a few imports frankly the saturn way of doing business and service was a very big plus i hadn t bought a new car since i bought my honda wd back in and i was unbelieveably offended by most salespeople i met saturn was indeed very different i made three different visits to the dealer where i bought my car and was never pressured saturn also had the best after sales support and the fixed pricing made it very easy for me to decide exactly what i wanted to buy another big selling point was running into my mechanic at the dealer he s been fixing imports for years and bought a saturn based on what he s seen and heard from his customers saturn also has a good extended warranty program for year k miles fully refunded if you don t use it that works out to an actual cost of or so based on the year treasury rates using savings account rates it s more like in the first three years it also buys you free rental during any warranty work without counting against the refund mike
rec.autos	re sho and sc in article c l re constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison writes in article apr ganglion ann arbor mi us david ganglion ann arbor mi us david hwang writes in article unisql uucp wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes in article chrissc qb d b netcom com chriss netcom com chris silvester writes why anyone would order an sho with an automatic transmission is beyond me if you can t handle a stick you should stick with a regular taurus and leave the sho to real drivers that is not to say that there aren t real drivers who can t use the stick eg disabled persons but they aren t in any position to use an sho anyway i would be willing to bet that if we removed the automatic transmissions from all performance type cars like the l mustangs camaros and the like we d cut down on the number of accidents each year autos are fine for sedate little sedans but they have no business in performance cars imho james i have to disagree with this i have a z with a and a speed auto w overdrive and it is really better that way chevy autos are reknowned for their long life and ability to handle copious amount of power i live in the dallas area and a manual would be much harder to drive in the traffic here now if i still lived out in the sticks like i used to a manual would be more fun safety wise an auto is less distracting i would hate to have to be shifting gears while i was trying to ease into traffic in the freeways here performance wise i can hold my own against any stock mustang or camaro w a five speed all of this imho robert l loper infinity is a notion best contemplated robertll flopn dseg ti com in a warm bed texas instruments inc my opinions are my own not ti s
rec.autos	re too fast in article qkon re armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes larger engine that s what the sho is a slightly modified family sedan with a powerful engine they didn t even bother improving the brakes that shows how much you know about anything the brakes on the sho are very different inch or i forget discs all around vented in front the normal taurus setup is smaller discs front drums rear your argument still boils down to an sho shouldn t be driven fast because i jim frost say it isn t designed to go fast pffffftttttt if you think so you sure don t pay attention to my postings damn straight you re one of those people who makes stuff up and tries to pawn it off as god s own truth if i want lies i can go listen to television the wharf rat
rec.autos	re where can i get a new york taxi in article ncrcan canada ncr ca tnelson ncrcan canada ncr ca tim nelson writes the older ny taxis were made by the checker car company and i would love to have one or is the checker car company still in business checker motors went out of business in it s hard to get old checkers that are worth restoring since almost every one was a fleet vehicle that was driven into the ground if you can get a body in decent shape the mechanicals should all be available somewhere checker used whatever parts were around for instance i had a chevy straight six and a gmc truck radiator and a ford rear in mine the model that i am looking for is the checker marathon actually you want a checker special if you can find one good luck i m sorry i let mine go
rec.autos	differences in insurance companies rates i am considering buying an new car so i called three insurance companies in california to get estimates i asked for the same coverage and same deductibles most of the companies charge you according to your zip code others charge according to your city anyhow i gave the same zip code and city to all three places here s what i found for a integra gs aaa yr state farm yr allstate yr aaa is non profit so they said i could also expect to receive about back at the end of the year still there is a huge gap between all of these companies state farm wants more than twice as much as allstate i think i should be suspicious but i ve never heard anybody else complain any comments thanks gregg l kasten gregg cs stanford edu
rec.autos	re honda accord brake problem joni ciarletta writes my honda accord just hit the magic mile mark and now all sorts of things are beginning to go bad the latest problem i am experiencing is with my brakes they still stop the car fine but once i am stopped completely my brake pedal will sink another or inches all by itself if feels really strange and i am worried my brakes will quit working one of these days i checked my brake fluid and the reservoir was full but the fluid itself looked really dirty like dirty oil i called my mechanic and he told me i need a new brake master cylinder which will cost me a whopping you are not alone my honda accord with miles on it started showing the same behavior i replaced the brake master cylinder myself it took about an hour and cost about sure beats paying to have someone else do it if i wanted to rebuild my own master cylinder instead of putting in a rebuilt one it would have cost only to for the rebuild kit the honda brake master cylinder is easy to get to two bolts attach it to the engine compartment two brake lines enter the master cylinder the tricky part was that the brake lines were stuck tight my craftsmen open end wrench rounded off the bolt heads i had to use vise grips to loosen those suckers wow best invention since sliced bread after that it was very easy bolt the new part in place add new brake fluid and bleed the brakes this is quite easy even for a beginner my local auto parts store had a repair manual for the honda accord it had detailed diagrams of the master brake cylinder and a step by step procedure for replacing it
rec.autos	re options that would be great to have in a previous article parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr says a list of options that would be useful they can be existing options on a car or things you d like to have tripmeter great little gadget lets you keep rough track of mileage makes a good second guesser for your gas gauge full size spare built in mountings and power systems for radar detectors a fitting that allows you to generate household current with the engine running and plug ins in the trunk engine compartment and cabin feel free to add on power windows dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.autos	manual shift bigots now my ego with regards to my shifting ability is as big as anyone else s but i just ordered my first car with an auto trans i wasn t planning on it but after driving a few i was convinced things have changed since the days of slip n slide withe powerglide they shift better than i do there s no clutch to wear out honda wanted for my wd wagon last year got it done for it only costs about in gas milage on the highway and it makes it easier to concentrate on all the radios in my car oddly enough while two of my best friends both in the auto industry here in the motor city have switched wholeheartedly to autos their wives insist on manual shift envy braggadocio aside given today s technology and the warranties they re handing out the auto trans seemed like an excellent choice call me a convert mike
rec.autos	re saturn manual transmission problem in article ka crdnns crd ge com cimjfg sn utica ge com writes after many trips to the dealer who has admittedly been patient with me they are admittedly going to do nothing about it the dealer did however follow the bulletin and review proper shifing procedures with the owner my next attempt at satisfaction in the customer number but from the first round it doesn t sound too hopeful i m surprised i know of a local case where a guy took his saturn back five times to complain they hadn t properly eliminated a rattling noise so saturn gave him a new car call that number
rec.autos	re too fast in a previous article wrat unisql uucp wharfie says in article qkon re armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes larger engine that s what the sho is a slightly modified family sedan with a powerful engine they didn t even bother improving the brakes that shows how much you know about anything the brakes on the sho are very different inch or i forget discs all around vented in front the normal taurus setup is smaller discs front drums rear one i saw had vented rears too it was on a lot of course the sales man was a fool titanium wheels yeah right then later told me they were magnesium more believable but still crap since al is so m uch cheaper and just as good i tend to agree tho that this still doesn t take the sho up to standard for running on a regular basis the brakes should be bigger like or so take a look at the ones on the corrados where they have braking regulations drew
rec.autos	re sho and sc in a previous article a moe dseg ti com robert loper says in article c l re constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison writes in article apr ganglion ann arbor mi us david ganglion ann arbor mi us david hwang writes in article unisql uucp wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes in article chrissc qb d b netcom com chriss netcom com chris silvester writes why anyone would order an sho with an automatic transmission is beyond me if you can t handle a stick you should stick with a regular taurus and leave the sho to real drivers that is not to say that there aren t real drivers who can t use the stick eg disabled persons but they aren t in any position to use an sho anyway i would be willing to bet that if we removed the automatic transmissions from all performance type cars like the l mustangs camaros and the like we d cut down on the number of accidents each year autos are fine for sedate little sedans but they have no business in performance cars imho james i have to disagree with this i have a z with a and a speed auto w overdrive and it is really better that way chevy autos are reknowned for their long life and ability to handle copious amount of power i live in the dallas area and a manual would be much harder to drive in the traffic here now if i still lived out in the sticks like i used to a manual would be more fun safety wise an auto is less distracting i would hate to have to be shifting gears while i was trying to ease into traffic in the freeways here performance wise i can hold my own against any stock mustang or camaro w a five speed all of this imho all of my ho s disagree with your ho s i loved dallas rush hour in my stick detested it in the auto like i did any other time in the auto of course dalls rush hours are nothing from what i hear if i lived in la i might be of a different persuasion and just for the record rarely do you shift gears when merging into traffic that is what speeds are good for th is good up through around most of the time so you can just wind it out it s not going to hurt anything and keeps it in the powerband anyway only shift into top gear when you are exceeding redline in th fairly rare unless you drive a ferrari or some such i d bet or when you hit cruising speed where you feel comfortable or when my mother is sitting in the passanger seat complaining about how you wind her poor little engine way too hi just my ho s drew
rec.autos	re dents on car all you have to do is turn it in to the police like you would an accident get a report and send it in to your insurance company and they will contact the other guys insurance company and they will have to pay just as they would in an accident they caused thus no need to go to court a friend of mine did this and he got the money so it does work
rec.autos	re ultimate awd vehicles in article bcd b ecs umass edu sylveste ecs umass edu writes before the s became the s it was called the turbo quattro v this model did come in a wagon a very quick wagon very rare also mike sylvester umass yes i saw a turbo quattro wagon on i in nj on monday i thought audi stopped selling wagons in the us after the this is exactly the type of vehicle i would like to own i bet its price is times my car budget ron deblock rdb homxb att com that s a number in rdb not letter l at t bell labs somerset nj usa
rec.autos	re legal car buying problems rboudrie chpc org rob boudrie writes in article stratus swdc stratus com bob runway swdc stratus com bob hutson writes after agreeing to terms i signed the contract and drove home in my new car later that same night i noticed that the terms in the were different from the terms i had agreed to i made the stupid mistake of not checking everything on the contract this all happened last saturday i have heard that there is a cooling off law allowing me three days to reconsider the contract is this true can anyone point me to the law the transaction happened at the dealership if it matters this cooling off period applies only in certain situations lik ewhen you are solicited at home i also think the cooling off period ends if you actually accept the merchandise if this were not the case any car buyer would have the right to return a slightly used highly devalued car days after buying it yeah that s the trick if i want to buy a new car i d have a firend buy return one then go in and negotiate a better deal on a pre owned used car however if you agree some terms and then when about to sign the dealer slips you a contract with different terms and leads you to believe that it embodies the terms you verbally agreed to that is fraud there is no day limit on restitution for fraud you may have to sue and win to get out of this you will almost certainly have to threaten to sue john oswalt jao megatest com or jao netcom com
rec.autos	re legal car buying problems in article apr chpc org rboudrie chpc org rob boudrie writes in article stratus swdc stratus com bob runway swdc stratus com bob hutson writes after agreeing to terms i signed the contract and drove home in my new car later that same night i noticed that the terms in the were different from the terms i had agreed to i made the stupid mistake of not checking everything on the contract this all happened last saturday i have heard that there is a cooling off law allowing me three days to reconsider the contract is this true can anyone point me to the law the transaction happened at the dealership if it matters this cooling off period applies only in certain situations lik ewhen you are solicited at home i also think the cooling off period ends if you actually accept the merchandise if this were not the case any car buyer would have the right to return a slightly used highly devalued car days after buying it yeah that s the trick if i want to buy a new car i d have a firend buy return one then go in and negotiate a better deal on a pre owned used car for discussion purposes only on the other hand if it can be proven it s possible the changed terms could be thrown out the question will be whether the agreement contains a merger clause see ucc parol evidence if we re talking about warranties then of course ucc should be looked at but we have so little information that none of us can say anything conclusive daniel reitman the uniform commercial code protects the innocent purchaser but it is not a shield for the sly conniver the blindly naive or the hopelessly gullible atlas auto rental corp v weisberg misc d n y s d n y city civ ct
rec.autos	re it s a rush was re too fast dont get me wrong i love to drive in the left lane fast but when i overtake cars who are on the right i slow down a tad bit if i were to rely on the j udgement of the other car to recognize the speed differential i would be the stupid one just to satiate my curiosity why would this make you the stupid one it seems to me everybody should be aware enough of what is going on you do not need i couldnt agree more that is how it should work people should also always see motorcycles too i constantly scan behind me i have one of those wink mirrors and two outside mirrors i actually spend just as much time checking my six cops you know i still get caught off guard every now and then maybe i didnt word it right the first time what i was trying to say was that if you plan to blow by somebody at a very high speed differential and you assume you are safe because the guy sees you you are stupid of course it depends on the circumstances i have had some very scary instances when i assumed this and i dont think all of the fault was the other guy now if he was going in a thats a whole different story
rec.autos	re dumb options list in a previous article parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr says the idea here is to list pointless options you know stuff you can get on a car that has no earthly use a fitting that allows you to generate household current with the engine running and plug ins in the trunk engine compartment and cabin feel free to add on regards charles x within the span of the last few weeks i have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person
rec.autos	re it s a rush was re too fast in a previous article gwm spl spl loral com gary w mahan says dont get me wrong i love to drive in the left lane fast but when i overtake cars who are on the right i slow down a tad bit if i were to rely on the j udgement of the other car to recognize the speed differential i would be the stupid one just to satiate my curiosity why would this make you the stupid one it seems to me everybody should be aware enough of what is going on you do not need i couldnt agree more that is how it should work people should also always see motorcycles too i constantly scan behind me i have one of those wink mirrors and two outside mirrors i actually spend just as much time checking my six cops you know i still get caught off guard every now and then maybe i didnt word it right the first time what i was trying to say was that if you plan to blow by somebody at a very high speed differential and you assume you are safe because the guy sees you you are stupid of course it depends on the circumstances i have had some very scary instances when i assumed this and i dont think all of the fault was the other guy now if he was going in a thats a whole different story ok i can agree to this because as we have both proved what is ideally supposed to happen isn t always and even though i m rearely the one doing the passing i don t see where it makes you stupid but i agree that if you think you are safe because the other guy is supposed to have been paying attention then yes you are just as dumb as the other maybe dumber hasta drew
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time from article pq i a f news ysu edu by ak yfn ysu edu john r daker cup holders driving is an importantant enough undertaking ashtrays smokers seem to think it s just fine to use the road oh sure sorry but the absence of a cupholder is not gonna discourage anyone from eating drinking in the car let s just put one in anyway so at least they don t have the further distraction of trying not to spill it furthermore you are obviously not a smoker on a cold day it takes a certain skill to toss a butt out of a cracked window without having it wind deflect into the back seat also just cause some smokers use the window doesn t mean all of us do this reminds me of one pleasant feature in the otherwise ergonomically hellish interior of the alfa romeo milano you could ash your cigarette without even removing your hand from the wheel the tray was right there fake convertible roofs and vinyl roofs any gold trim these i will agree are abominations right along with the fake continental spare tire kit it s sad watching those little old ladies try to load their groceries into the trunk with that huge tire medallion in the way most pitiful fake convertible top on a cadillac cimarron with all the chrome door trim still visible not fooling anyone of course there was that hyundai excel i once saw a laszlo csd csd uwm edu redhead afficionado extraordinaire and v little canadia s minister of fine tobaccos o cigaret brands sampled import luxury handrolling these opinions are not necessarily mine or mine either can anyone bum me a sig
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all tim in article mar uncavx unca edu bwillard uncavx unca edu wrote saab ignition is on floor actually this started as a great idea before steering column locks became popular saab installed a gearshift lock put the car in reverse remove the key and the car stays in reverse also suppose you get into your car and a thug comes up and demands your keys at gunpoint you hand them over he gets in and has no idea where to put the key at this he will run away or perhaps shoot you anyway i heard this actually happened somewhere btw i hear that the saab s new successor will have the ignition on the console between the seats where it belongs a laszlo csd csd uwm edu redhead afficionado extraordinaire and v little canadia s minister of fine tobaccos o cigaret brands sampled import luxury handrolling these opinions are not necessarily mine or mine either can anyone bum me a sig
rec.autos	re ad said nissan altima best seller in article r vk innaft cronkite central sun com dbernard clesun central sun com writes i too was puzzled by this obvious untruth what i think is going on is that nissan claims that the altima is the best selling new car namelplate in the us i think i have this near verbatim lee iaccoca s statistics dept would have been proud of that sentence note that the corolla prism are also new designs but hey are not new nameplates i guess nissan doesn t even sell as many altimas as toyota does corollas or there would be no nameplate qualifier but waiiiiiit isn t nissan officially registering the car as far as government paperwork goes nissan stanza altima to avoid costly and lengthy paperwork i read this on the net a while ago and someone actually may have said there s a little stanza logo on the altima somewhere you can have it both ways spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos c st kocrsv delcoelect com software technology delco electronics gm hughes electronics kokomo in i post therefore i armm
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all tim in article apr exu ericsson se exulox exu ericsson se lasse ohlsson t tdt writes in article cas org sdm cas org writes imho the dumbest thing we ever did in copying the japanese was moving the dimmer switch from the floor to the lever controlling the turn signal cruise the federal government has mandated that all passenger cars by model year return to the floor mounted dimmer switch a study by the national highway traffic safety administration nhtsa has found that an unacceptable percentage of after dusk collisions were the direct result of unskilled drivers getting their left foot stuck in the steering wheel ron gaskins c reg koptsw delcoelect com automotive electronic systems delco electronics gm hughes electronics kokomo in ron gaskins c reg koptsw delcoelect com automotive electronic systems delco electronics gm hughes electronics kokomo in
rec.autos	re warning please read in article r d d s agate berkeley edu bh anarres cs berkeley edu brian harvey writes rfelix netcom com robbie felix writes how about the thousands of kind teenagers who volunteer at local agencies to help children seniors the homeless hear hear thanks robbie you also don t read that much about violence against teenagers such as george bush burying alive tens of thousands of unarmed iraqi year olds who were trying to surrender with bulldozers on the other hand i think it is true without singling out teenagers for blame that violence is more socially acceptable than it used to be those of us who d like to discourage violence have plenty of work to do with people of all ages i didn t know george could drive a bulldozer
rec.autos	re re toyota land cruiser worth it in response to a post about suv s i got several unsolicited recommendations to check out the land cruiser despite its astronomical price the toyota dealer told me it s a cult car if a car is good enough to create a passionate and loyal following there must be something really extraordinary about it so all you land crusher cultists here is your chance to convert me jonathan edwards edwards intranet com intranet inc based on my experience with a fj the hard top jeep style model i would definitely give a new model consideration if i were in the market the older models are very well built unless toyota lost its mind i would assume until proven otherwise that the newer models have inherited some if not all of the qualities of their ancestors two major differences in the running gear that i m aware of need study my has a solid front axle housing whereas the newer models have independant front suspension the solid axle is theoretically stronger and more reliable than the newer model but only experience will tell the independant front suspension is no doubt a compromise made to satisfy the typical user who will never need a real utility vehicle the second difference is the type of transfer case used on the newer models i m not sure but i think tioyota went to a full time wd or all wheel drive system the older landcruisers have a lock up type both have their advantages and disadvantages paul hovnanian hovnania atc boeing com std disclaimers apply
rec.autos	re is car saftey important jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john f nielsen writes in article r jr m v armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes tcorkum bnr ca trevor corkum writes i figure that mph collisions into brick walls aren t common enough for me to spend that much extra money for protection but there are lots of low speed collisions that do worry me get into an mph accident and you may reconsider i ve been in one and it is really scarey my life is something i value more than a car s looks or handeling consider it insurance it may not happen often but when it does you ll sure be glad you got a safe car granted the tests aren t perfect but i d much rather be in a car that did well in the test than a car that did horribly you raise a valid point but again it s a tradeoff how much money do you want to spend for that kind of protection you could buy a volvo saab or benz and get really good crash protection and other luxuries but you ll pay significantly more for it in my case it s out of the question because all of those cars are beyond my budget even in high speed head on collisions the most beneficial item you can have is a good old point seatbelt nowadays at least in the us you get an airbag if you get a point belt so presumably you get an added safety benefit there as well that s something i certainly look for and which can be had in inexpensive cars my of course jim frost jimf centerline com
rec.autos	re best radar detector valentine troy sequent com troy wecker writes there is no question that the valentine has good range but not significant enough to be or times as expensive as some of the others the big win with the v is not its range but rather its directionality and multiple transmitter tracking which you later called a gimmick a conclusion i disagree with since the detector incorporates multiple receivers it s not surprising that it s significantly more expensive while the added capabilities may not help you there is added value for those of us who live in areas where there are a lot of false alarms summary valentine way too expensive and not a significantly better performer i certainly call it interesting but i m another person who thinks that the added value might be coming at too high a cost very adequate radar detectors are available for less than half the cost and one of them has suited me rather well if i did more long distance travelling in areas i m not familiar with i d probably consider getting the v because it s additional information would be useful in discriminating false alarms jim frost jimf centerline com
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time r vmcms csuohio edu writes in article c lz jus news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes laszlo csd csd uwm edu tyson f nuss writes from article pq i a f news ysu edu by ak yfn ysu edu john r daker fake convertible roofs and vinyl roofs any gold trim these i will agree are abominations right along with the fake continental spare tire kit it s sad watching those little old ladies try to load their groceries into the trunk with that huge tire medallion in the way most pitiful fake convertible top on a cadillac cimarron with all the chrome door trim still visible not fooling anyone of course there was that hyundai excel i once saw i have seen a cutlass supreme coupe gm with a vinyl roof ditto a taurus shoot the owners now before it s too late it gets better i ve seen them on a door escort chevy s blazer and even a chevy astro mini van a mini van w a fake convertible top is not something you want to see just after eating and better yet there s a chevette in town with wire crome wheels vinyl roof tacky paint job and a continental spare showing the wire crome wheel within of course i m scared to look on the inside and have only seen it rolling down the road and i too was glad i hadn t just ate bob martel lady luck must have been a wonderful girl bob cua csuohio edu she s never been a friend of mine r vmcms csuohio edu the alan parsons project the b lives chris t ward dod don t take life too seriously you can never come out of it alive
rec.autos	re dealer cheated me with wrong odometer reading need help in article qvrnpinnnid shelley u washington edu yongje hardy u washington edu yong je lim writes subject dealer cheated me with wrong odometer reading need help here is a story i bought a car about two weeks ago i finally can get hold of the previous owner of the car and got all maintanence history of the car in between and the instrument pannel of the car has been replaced and the odometer also has been reset to zero therefore the true meter reading is the reading before replacement plus current mileage that shows mile difference comparing to the mileage on the odometer disclosure from the dealer never told me anything about that important story i hope that i can return the car with full refund do u think this is possible does anyone have similar experiences any comments will be appreciated thanks something that happened in south africa about a year ago a dealer sold a mercedes with an odometer reading of k kilometers to a lady turned out that the actual reading should have been k court case followed because lady said she wouldn t have bought a car with that much km s dealer found quilty fined and had to take back the car i think you have a case if you can get a sworn statement from the previous owner take the car back to the dealer and threaten him or something gerrit
rec.autos	re is car saftey important in article apr bnr ca tcorkum bnr ca trevor corkum writes subject is car saftey important i was recently thumbing through the lemon aid new car guide what i found was a car would be given a recommended under the picture while a few sentences later noting how a driver and passenger were virtually guaranteed to be killed in a front end collision the most highly recommended small car the civic has the worst crash rating of all of the small cars listed there were many such cases of great vehicles where you wouldn t survive an accident is it only me or is safety not one of the most important factors when buying a car definitely safety is an important criterium for me when buying a car i won t buy a small car like a civic or whatever great safety handling speed for me seems to me that you would be more dead in a small car than a large car after an accident gerrit
rec.autos	re manual shift bigots as a matter of interest does anyone know why autos are so popular in the us while here in europe they are rare just wondering john kissane motorola ireland ltd o o uucp uunet motcid glas kissanej mahon industrial estate internet kissanej glas rtsg mot com blackrock cork ireland u
rec.autos	re warning please read in article r d d s agate berkeley edu bh anarres cs berkeley edu brian harvey writes rfelix netcom com robbie felix writes how about the thousands of kind teenagers who volunteer at local agencies to help children seniors the homeless hear hear thanks robbie you also don t read that much about violence against teenagers such as george bush burying alive tens of thousands of unarmed iraqi year olds who were trying to surrender with bulldozers i didn t know george bush could drive a bulldozer kee ripe jim grey jwg acd acd com
rec.autos	re water in trunk of probe in article r crn g transfer stratus com tszeto sneezy ts stratus com tommy szeto writes water gradually builds up in the trunk of my friend s ford probe every once in a while we would have to remove the spare and scoop out the water under the plywood carpet cover on the trunk i would guess this usually happens after a good thunder storm a few qs is this a common problem where are the drain holes located for the hatch i had the same problem in my mx luckily i had it fixed under warranty i think they replaced a tail light gasket check with a dealer it s a known problem robert k abbott abbott tps enet dec com
rec.autos	mr car cover for sale for sale fitted car cover specifically for mr top of the line evolution tm fabric used for less than months the cover is in excellent condition no rips cuts stains or other blemishes it has grommets for a locking cable the color is silver price f o b will ship collect please contact wchutt monsanto com or phone at after pm cdt
rec.autos	re opel owners in article c sxi j b news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes gibbonsa fraser sfu ca darren gibbons writes i m looking for information on opel cars now you ask which model well the sad truth is i m not entirely sure but it s a two seater with roll over headlights hard top and really sporty looking my friend has one sitting in his yard in really nice condition body wise but he transmission has seized up on him so it hasn t run for a while does anyone have any info on these cars the engine compartment looks really tight to work on but it is in fine shape and i am quite interested in it thanks darren gibbons gibbonsa sfu ca this would be the manta would it not sold through buick dealers in the mid s as the price leader chintan amin llama uiuc edu if it looks like a miniature corvette it would be an opel gt the headlights are flipped over by pulling a lever inside chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	re mr noisy engine in a previous article eliot lanmola engr washington edu eliot says in article r vofinn usenet pa dec com tomacj opco enet dec com thunderbirds are go writes are there any mr owners or motor head gurus out there that know why my mr s engine sounds noisy the mr s engine is noisy at the best of times but not even a nice nose it s one of those very ugly noises assuming yours is a non turbo mr the gruffness is characteristic of a large inline that doesn t have balance shafts i guess toyota didn t care about little details like that when they can brag about the mid engine configuration and the flashy styling myself i automatically cross out any car from consideration or recommendation which has an inline larger than liters and no balance shafts it is a good rule of thumb to keep in mind if you ever want a halfway decent engine if the noise really bugs you there is nothing else that you can do except to sell it and get a v eliot nice theory too bad the mr s never came with a four cylinder over liters more like or did they were the nonturbo mr ii s or some such i also understand that anyone using balancing shafts on four cylinders must pay saab a royalty for using their patented design like porsche s i c ya drew
rec.autos	re water in trunk of probe tszeto sneezy ts stratus com tommy szeto writes water gradually builds up in the trunk of my friend s ford probe every once in a while we would have to remove the spare and scoop out the water under the plywood carpet cover on the trunk i would guess this usually happens after a good thunder storm a few qs is this a common problem yes this is a common problem the leaks occur through the seal of the taillights unfortunately ford has this with most probes and does not have a recall for it very dissatisfying to say the least where are the drain holes located for the hatch there is no drain holes that i know of i used a margine tub to drain it regretably i waited three months as i was short cash and they wouldn t fix it under warrantee then i paid dearly as it messed up my electrical system including a balance motion sensor which is located near the fuel shutoff in the trunk this resulted in my passive restraints malfunctioning they would not retract so i ended up paying about to have the sensor replaced to have the tail lights resealed they firts replaced the hatch gasket which i insisted was not the problem so they did not charge me for that when i proved to be right not to mention the water damage to the covers to the trunk spare com partment and algae in the taillights very annoying don t let the water problem go get it fixed or you ll pay more later considering how common a problem it is i hope every one complains to ford thanks for any info tom tom szeto no not those peanuts the ones on the tszeto sneezy ts stratus com bottom ggnuuaahuuhh include disclaimer h homer simpson
rec.autos	re are bmw s worth the price in article ceylon gte com hhd harvey gte com horace dediu writes in article pvjlninnckf daffy sps mot com shantanu risc sps mot com shantanu ganguly writes some comments a good performance and mid and high speeds can be obtained by adjusting the top gear and final drive ratios contrary to popular misperception a number of japanese cars have quite good performance from in top gear no problem with that the question is do they perform consistently in all conditions roads winds and curves at that speed and do so for hours on end year after year without giving the driver white knuckles from my experience on the autobahns autostrade a good touring car can be easily distinguished by its poise at mph the best stay on cruise control at for hours i ve seen the typical boy racer in a fiat try to keep up sure they hit the century mark but if the wind blows the wrong way they change lanes and if on an overpass they may fly right into a guardrail the buffeting at can be severe enough to make the hood bend tires at can melt and a pothole can kill many german cars are designed for this environment even if they can t seem to get out of their own way from a stop light mercedes come to mind in particular and another design point is fuel economy at those speeds the germans gear the car for very good high speed efficiency a typical m b e turns at almost a stall good point i have no idea how either of my hondas will handle at mph nor do they reach however using high to be mph a they are quite amenable to long high speed drives i ve done several k mile trips in my civic with no problems whatsoever the last big trip i made was driving from new york to texas i remember driving miles a day at typically mph without any problems i m sure i would have been more comfortable driving a benz but no white knuckles no problems with winds and curves then there was the trip back from new orleans after mardi gras where we were doing all the way to houston no problems b both my cars have surprising good fuel economy at high speeds i see no difference between sustained mph and sustained mph on the trip back from new orleans we got about mpg in my integra quite ok mind you the engine revs to almost k at the civic is markedly better than the integra in fuel economy k miles down the road i still get mpg at mph driving b i can t understand why these high scale european marquees are afraid to design engines that can be repeatedly revved to near redline in the low gears i have been doing that for that last k miles with my lowly civic with no detriment to either the engine or the clutch and getting excellent mpg to boot i d call this an engineering hack to cover up design deficiencies at k miles you d still be breaking in a high scale european marquee they typically are designed to last miles per engine mi per chassis the record is now over miles on a benz diesel and i ve read about transmissions lasting miles speaking of now now you can t compare a diesel with a gasoline engine i see enough bmws and gasoline mercs for sale that have k miles on them and advertise rebuilt engines if honda was to build an accord for k i d darn well expect the sucker to last k miles diesels they have very good efficiency at the cost of acceleration and are very popular in all european cars diesel is considered the green fuel from the smallest econoboxes to the luxo barges again we see a difference in mentality diesels in the us are considered slightly worse than useless and extremely dirty to boot so you can t give them away ever got caught behind a early s sdl at a stop light it s not pleasant the newer mb s are a lot better though the diesel volvos and vws are probably the smelliest offenders as for economy why should we care gas is cheap i personally wouldn t buy a diesel car for any reason what does it buy me shantanu ganguly somerset motorola phone motorola inc mail drop oe fax william cannon drive w austin tx email shantanu ibmoto com oakhill sps mot com
rec.autos	re bimmer vs beamer mark monninger markm latium wrote although not in direct response to the referenced article just to set the record straight beamers are bmw motorcycles bmw cars are bimmers please let s get our terms straight actually some purists would argue that the only true bimmer is a round tail light or mark back when i was building round tail light s they were bimmers it was only when the red suspendered reganomics generated quiche eating yuppies got into the market that they became beamers and the hood ornaments started disappering andrei
rec.autos	car alarm info ungo box i want to get a car alarm and i am thinking about getting an ungo box does anyone out there have any knowledge or experience with any of these alarms how about price ranges for the different models are these good car alarms please email me any responces cak ns lehigh edu chad chad
rec.autos	re water in trunk of probe the rubber drain plugs under my carpet in my mazda glc leaked like the ones are doing under your spare in the probe i tooke them out and put some silicone sealant on them and put them back in
rec.autos	re viper in article c jnha ib murdoch acc virginia edu rmt r faraday clas virginia edu roy matthew thigpen writes last night i had a dream that my dad bought a viper i took it out for a test drive without his knowledge and had to push it all the way home just to avoid a ticket wierd dream i wonder what it means you probably should told you dad to buy that car than your dream might come true
rec.autos	re saturn s pricing policy in article qn m c s vela acs oakland edu mje pookie pass wayne edu writes i just ordered a saturn sl after considering a few imports frankly the saturn stuff deleted saturn also has a good extended warranty program for year k miles fully refunded if you don t use it that works out to an actual cost of or so based on the year treasury rates using savings account rates it s more like in the first three years it also buys you free rental during any warranty work without counting against the refund mike in general extended warranties are a ripoff this yr k is really only yr k because you get the yr k one free with the car also is there perhaps a deductible you pay each and every time you use the warranty also are certain items excluded from coverage on the extended warranty and if you use it at year for some buck job and pay a deduct and then you have used it so no refund ever again extended warranties are ripoff high profit items for the dealer
rec.autos	re plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences they are pretty much junk stay away from them they will be replaced next year with all new models junk they ve made the c d lists for years due to their excellent handling and acceleration they have been around since about oh or so they re not the newest on the lot and mileage is about five to eight mpg under the class leader you can get into a l v hp shadow for k the i turbo a bit more and a droptop for k
rec.autos	re toyota land cruiser worth it my wife and i looked at and drove one last fall this was a model it was wayyyyyyyyy underpowered i could not imagine driving it in the mountains here in colorado at anything approaching highway speeds i have read that the new models have a newer improved hp engine i m quite serious that i laughed in the salesman face when he said once it s broken in it will feel more powerful i had been used to driving a jeep l hp engine i believe the s land cruisers land yachts were l the sames as the runner which is also underpowered in my own personal opinion they are big cars very roomy but nothing spectacular tom vervaeke email tvervaek cs itc hp com hewlett packard co phone i love animals they taste delicious
rec.autos	questions about insurance companies esp geico i m considering switching to geico insurance but have heard that they do not assign a specific agent for each policy or claim i was worried that this might be a real pain when you make a claim i have also heard that they try to get rid of you if you have an accident i m interestend in determining whether or not these things are true has anyone out there with geico made a claim i d be interested in hearing whether or not you were satisfied with the service and whether you then had trouble renewing your policy i m also interested in any good or bad stories about liberty mutual or state farm
rec.autos	re warning please read mchaffee dcl nxt michael t chaffee writes be valued in terms of money because they are human beings i submit that they are not human beings such submissions have been made before e g regarding jews in article apr nuscc nus sg matmcinn nuscc nus sg matthew macintyre at the national university of senegal writes absolutely a scratch on my car bothers me more than the death of any number of scum all of you feel the same way you just won t admit it when are people going to realise that the mere fact that a piece of flesh moves and has the approximate shape of a human being does not in itself mean that it has rights all you dirty harry types eager to pull a gun on some scum guilty of scratching your stupid painted metal boxes on wheels have you ever killed a human to speak so lightly about such matters sergei
rec.autos	re ford and the auto hello my name is russell wong and i am doing a research project on henry ford and his automobile i need information on whether ford is partially responsible for all of the car accidents and the depletion of the ozone layer also any other additional information will be greatly appreciated thanks so would mr benz eh and mr chevy mr toyokogio and mr insert car name here dan reed blu cellar org eat your pets poke out your eyes kill your boss burn down your house move to elmer nj rip out your nose hairs with a lead holder use x acto knives for dental work hit your mother people get a life md
rec.autos	re renting from alamo cause a friend rented a car last year and it turned out he needed a lot more insurance than what s included in the base price but on the other hand he didn t rent it from alamo probability that i ll be needing more insurance unless you have an accident you won t need more joe let me see unless you have an accident you won t need more hmmmmmmm bijan
rec.autos	re sport utility vehical comparisons any opinions karl elvis macrae kmac cisco com wrote i m looking at the following three suv s anyone who s driven all three have any strong opinions ford explorer toyota runner nissan pathfinder well i was just in your position and i drove all three and liked all three it was a toss up i marginally went with the pathfinder based on reliability and looks i don t think you can go wrong with any of them john jdenune pandora sdsu edu
rec.autos	re changing oil by self from drew kinglear cs colorado edu drew eckhardt in article pod sour sw oz au pod sour sw oz au paul o donnell wri in qgi einnhs skeena ucs ubc ca yiklam unixg ubc ca yik chong lam writes hello does anyone know how to take out the bolt under the engine compartment should i turn clockwise or counter i tried any kind of lubricants wd etc but i still failed do you think i can use a electric drill change to a suitable bit to turn it out if i can succeed can i re tighten it not too tight is it safe without oil leak you shouldn t need any power tools to undo it an electric drill probably won t give you much extra torque anyway wd will help things that are seized due to rust but this is unlikely for a drain plug you should be able to undo it with a spanner when it loosens it will probably become very loose and you will bash your knuckles on the underside of the car this is the price you must pay for doing you own work no that s the price you pay for not knowing how to use a wrench you want to pull the wrench towards you away from painful knuckle splitting hard things if you can t pull it because things are in the way push it with an open hand i find this method much better myself too although i do really hate it when the bolt finally comes loose and the wrench and my hand both come crashing into my face after coming to which is about minutes later i change my clothes because by this time all the oil has drained on me and ice my entire face and suck down about tylenol to ease the pain later in the day i then proceed with refilling the engine oil it s just crazy how i try and change the oil on my cars in one weekend i go through about bottles of tylenol and bags of ice john
rec.autos	re the kuebelwagen in article c k co f mentor cc purdue edu thwang mentor cc purdue edu tommy hwang writes sorry for the mis spelling but i forgot how to spell it after my series of exams and no on hand reference here is it still possible to get those cute wwii vw jeep wanna be s a replica would be great i think greetings you may be in luck i seem to recall seeing a blurb in one of the kit car magazines about a company in norway who pulled a mould sp off a real kubel and has adapted it to the beetle floorpan as for the suspension all i can remember about the vw thing i used to own is that it had about more suspension travel than a stock beetle but i d heard that there were after market parts for off road use that were as good or better note that the major difference looks wise between a kubel a thing are the hood and the fenders the kubel had an external spare mounted on the hood and the hood sloped down for visibility sharply and had rounded fenders the thing has a lightly sloped hood with the spare mounted inside unless moved to make for more luggage space and has half hexagon shaped fenders imagine a nut large enough to put a tire in and cut off the bottom half of it unfortunately i don t have that info anymore try stopping at a local bookstore and copying down the phone numbers for the two big mag s and calling them they might be able to get the number for you don t forget to calculate the time difference to norway before calling later kc a quick bones help me get include o this klingon off my ss std disclaimer h damn it jim i m a kking cs uah edu doctor not a bidet
rec.autos	re ultimate awd vehicles in article c l z e cbnewsj cb att com rdb cbnewsj cb att com ronald j deblock jr writes yes i saw a turbo quattro wagon on i in nj on monday i thought audi stopped selling wagons in the us after the this is exactly the type of vehicle i would like to own i bet its price is times my car budget think again thanks to minutes tick tick tick used quattros are bargains s go for about k s go for perhaps or k more the valve s are quite a bit more because of an enormous hp and torque gain i think they go for about to k if you can find one i have seen quite a lot of quattros not that many wagons though at the dealer lot they use very high quality paint and the entire car is zinc galvanized so it will never rust in short typically a yr old looks no more older than a year old and the bangers are bullet proof engines k out of one is not rare even for a turbo which is watercooled for the s then there are aftermarket chips that you can buy to bump up turbo boost if you are into luxo gizmos the cars are loaded with just about everything too the price of parts is a different story though eliot
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time x x fake convertible roofs and vinyl roofs x any gold trim x x these i will agree are abominations right along with the fake x continental spare tire kit it s sad watching those little old ladies x try to load their groceries into the trunk with that huge tire medallion x in the way x most pitiful fake convertible top on a cadillac cimarron with x all the chrome door trim still visible not fooling anyone x of course there was that hyundai excel i once saw x least you think bad taste is something new back in the early s i saw a couple of cars with flocked paint jobs thats not a typo i think they sprayed on some kind of glue then blew on tiny pieces of nylon it comes out looking like felt can you picture a huge plymouth fury iii in dark blue felt i think i can even remember one guy who did it in red to a early s corvette that was after he had turned it into a station wagon mack costello mcostell oasys dt navy mil code formerly david taylor model basin carderock division hq nswc bethesda md phone
rec.autos	re fast idle on ford ranger ljbartel naomi b b ingr com les bartel writes it did it again this morning my ford ranger was idling at rpm ok so i exaggerated a little but it was idling very fast it has a liter carburated engine in it and no blipping of the throttle would cause the idle to drop back to normal i don t think the linkage is stuck what can i do to fix this problem this has been a problem from time to time but has straightened itself out until now i don t have a tach but by gauging by the sound of the engine it is idling about twice as fast as it should be this is down from what it was idling at when i pulled up at a stop light sometimes a bad choke pull off diaphram will cause a car to fast idle the pull off which is vacuum actuated provides a necessary pull in non cold weather conditions to get the idle off the the fast idle cam locate the fast idle cam on your vehicle and see if you can rotate it to produce a normal idle if so locate the diaphram and test it if you can t apply suction via a good piece of rubber vacuum hose with your mouth that will cause the diaphram to retract then it s bad and should be replaced bernie lofaso applied research labs
rec.autos	re water in trunk of probe jlong emcnext tamu edu james long writes in article r crn g transfer stratus com tszeto sneezy ts stratus com tommy szeto writes water gradually builds up in the trunk of my friend s ford probe every once in a while we would have to remove the spare and scoop out the water under the plywood carpet cover on the trunk i would guess this usually happens after a good thunder storm a few qs is this a common problem where are the drain holes located for the hatch i noticed this is my probe also when recently cleaning out the back i think the water is coming up through some rubber stoppered holes beneath the spare mine looked slightly worn and there was no water or water damage above the level of the spare area this has taken a low priority since i just found out while rotating my tires that i have a torn cv boot ugh i ve got an gt it has the smoked taillight assembly i think this is where the water is getting in when i first got it had it for a month one of the rear taillights fogged up with moisture i took it in to the dealer and they replaced the entire assembly it happened to the other one about months later this time i happened to look in the spare tire well and noticed water standing in there the dealer was more reluctant this time to replace it but i convinced them to fix it they must have had to deal with a number of other probes with the same problem i haven t noticed water in the taillamps or the trunk for the last years but just last month the taillamp just fogged up again i m going to try to take it back to get them to fix it again i m real tempted to drill some vent and drain holes in the tops and bottoms of the assembly and forget about it this is getting very annoying almost every other gt i ve seen has had this problem vel vel natarajan nataraja rtsg mot com motorola cellular arlington hts il
rec.autos	x on off road rally joliet il attention all four wheel off road enthusiasts on off road rally sunday april th joliet illinois the event the joliet mud turtles a chicago land four wheel drive club is sponsoring an on off road rally sunday april th for those who ask what is an on off road rally well an on off road rally consists of the following an on the road rally where participants are given a set of directions and clues guiding participates around the joliet plainfield area the object is to navigate a course based on a set of directions and clues participants will be given a set of questions pertaining to the course which they must answer along the way points are awarded for the number of correct answers given directions will ultimately lead to an off road area where a four wheel drive course is set up at various locations in the on road course check points will be set up where participants will be asked other questions or requested to perform some activity e g tire roll truck tow basketball free throw etc for additional points an optional off road four wheel drive course where participants will navigate off road trails mud bogs and or hill climbs points are awarded for successfully navigating off road obstacles without getting stuck if you should get stuck which is half the fun anyway there will be assistance to get your vehicle unstuck so you can try it again the off road course will divided up based on tire size so stock x s as well as modified x s can run the course at the end of the rally trophies will be awarded to top scoring participants door prizes and dash plaques will also be given out food and drinks also available at the conclusion this is an organized activity sponsored by the joliet mud turtles so safety and fun is our foremost concern all x s must be street legal and have solid tow points for the off road section of the course we don t want to have to separate someone s bumper from their vehicle the particulars rally begins at instant replay plainfield road joliet il see map below registration is between and a m first truck out at a m rally date is sunday april th rain or shine there is an entry fee of per truck you must have a co driver passengers allowed a valid drivers license is required suggested equipment cb radio compass tow strap and clevis clip board and pencil no alcohol during rally for more information contact gary tom norm jr brian instant replay mi mi north rt exit rt canton larkin farm ave rd mi rt v exit b
rec.autos	re auto air conditioning without freon markm bigfoot sps mot com mark monninger writes in article apr research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna writes several chemists already have come up with several substitutes for r you don t hear about them because the mobile air conditioning society macs that is the people who stand to rake in that to per retrofit per automobile have mounted an organized campaign to squash those r substitutes out of existence if not ban them altogether on very shaky technical grounds at best on outright lies at worst now i m not saying you re wrong because i know that the r substitutes exist but this sounds a lot like the mpg carbs that the oil companies keep us all from getting these substitutes exist and at this time are available its the future availability that is in doubt ghg get it from people s welding supply butane propane you can mix this yourself so no one can ever regulate it away just make sure you use good quality dry gases i don t know of any mpg carb distributors jon hacker get the os march beta cd rom caltech pasadena ca for call ibm os hacker tumbler ridge caltech edu read about it in comp os os beta
rec.autos	wife wants convertible help my wife has informed me that she wants a convertible for her next car we live in south fla so we are definitely in the right are for one my wife has mentioned the miata but i think it is too small i would like to wait for the new mustangs dec i think anyone have any opinions on any all convertibles in a reasonable price range thanx
rec.autos	third party car antennas since this posting i ve received no replies or followups so i m posting here hoping for the feedback i didn t get in rec audio car article number newsgroups rec audio car path cbfsb cbnewsb cb att com vinlai from vinlai cbnewsb cb att com vincent lai subject third party car antennas message id apr cbfsb cb att com sender news cbfsb cb att com organization at t distribution na date tue apr gmt i recently saw a particular third party antenna on a new camry not mine but it caught my interest and a new it seems to replace the factory power antenna and is about a foot long made of plastic tubing i have seen them on quite a few cars but i can t find anything more about them in previous r a c articles nor in r a articles i d like to know all i can so any feedback is greatly appreciated mom we re hungry bud bundy why tell me peg bundy vincent lai vinlai cbnewsb att com forwards mail to vlai attmail com which eventually winds up in wcmnja lai somerset att com
rec.autos	re too fast in a previous article tedebear leland stanford edu theodore chen says in article qh m b l armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes compare either to the porsche and you tell me which was designed to go fast you have a point about the brakes especially seeing as how the mustang doesn t even have disc brakes in the back but there are significant differences between the latest s and the late s s not the least of which is handling i m not i think you mean late s the biggest change that porsche undertook to alter the tailhappieness of their baby was way back in august for the model year when they stretched the wheelbase besides some people actually know how to take advantage of oversteer and enjoy it in europe the got low marks for high speed handling though to be fair they might have been comparing it to the vette s handling what was that phil hill famous race car driver said about the you should have seen what phil hill world champion had to say about the vette s he s driven turbo you can t make a thoroughbred out of a pig but you can have an awful fast pig yeah that was what he said paul frere agreed they both prefered the porsche modified by ruf to either of the vette s at that test al bowers dod alfa ducati hobie kottke blad iaido nasa well goodness sakes don t you know that girls can t play guitar mary chapin carpenter
rec.autos	re sho and sc in article apr mksol dseg ti com a moe dseg ti com robert loper writes in article c l re constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison writes in article apr ganglion ann arbor mi us david ganglion ann arbor mi us david hwang writes i would be willing to bet that if we removed the automatic transmissions from all performance type cars like the l mustangs camaros and the like we d cut down on the number of accidents each year autos are fine for sedate little sedans but they have no business in performance cars imho james i have to disagree with this i have a z with a and a speed auto w overdrive and it is really better that way chevy autos are reknowned for their long life and ability to handle copious amount of power i live in the dallas area and a manual would be much harder to drive in the traffic here now if i still lived out in the sticks like i used to a manual would be more fun i don t know if it s as much an issue of their ablility to handle the power as it is the power they lose in the torque converter etc safety wise an auto is less distracting i would hate to have to be shifting gears while i was trying to ease into traffic in the freeways here performance wise i can hold my own against any stock mustang or camaro w a five speed however if you encounter a formula with l speed manual you ll be sol i m afraid btw i know of what i speak as a former owner of a l auto iroc and current owner of the aforementioned car chris s chris silvester any man capable of getting himself elected president chriss sam amgen com should by no means be allowed to do the job chriss netcom com douglas adams the hitchhiker s guide to the galaxy
rec.autos	re changing oil by self in article c lmtr mo mentor cc purdue edu marshatt feserve cc purdue edu za uberer writes in article qgi einnhs skeena ucs ubc ca yiklam unixg ubc ca yik chong lam writes hello does anyone know how to take out the bolt under the engine compartment should i turn clockwise or counter i tried any kind of lubricants wd etc but i still failed do you think i can use a electric drill change to a suitable bit to turn it out if i can succeed can i re tighten it not too tight is it safe without oil leak thank you very much in advance winson don t worry about leaks don t worry about which way to turn the damn thing take a good claw hammer and pry it straight out now you ll notice after all the oil pours out that there are no theads where there used to be thats why heli coils were invented yes buy a few of these gems and rethread the hole a little larger each time you change the oil when the hole gets too big for any heli coil you can buy its time to trade in the car
rec.autos	re too fast in article qmcih dhs armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes they light the highways in texas funny everywhere else i ve been they only light em at junctions and armadillo crossings texas is pretty much an edge case you can t assume that everywhere has roads in such good condition such flat terrain and such wide open spaces it just ain t so well let s see in just my own personal experience there s nevada new mexico texas wyoming utah south dakota nebraska minnesota montana florida and parts of louisianna nobody said let s go into town and drive on main st and you couldn t go that fast on the graveled washboard that passes for highway in some parts but that only really expensive cars should be driven fast crap is well crap wr
rec.autos	re it s a rush was re too fast remember roads in america are not designed for speeds above meaning they would be safe at roads like the autobahn are smoother straiter wider and slightly banked example a few months back i was traveling late at night am or so and i was changing highways at a bent crosssing it curved off to the south east becoming hidden by trees after about ft and continued to the left strait north i wanted to turn north checked the south lane rolled into the crossing and checked the north lane nevertheless there wasn t a car in sight so i took one last look and pulled into the left hand lane now my car isn t a sec performer but i was in the corect lane and over in decent time even at i wasn t wasting time it was then that i checked my mirror and saw a mustang closing in my lane fast he had just turned the corner and was just noticing me luckly he saw me and changed lanes in time i estamate he was moving in excess of or so i was just a by stander i had no chance of runing from him or moving out of his way i m glad he saw my brake lights in time i shudder to think of what would have happened had i wainted to pull out and not left the time he needed to dodge me rule just because your car can do and your way is clear don t assume it will stay that way travis disclamer the ideas expressed above are in fact the same as my employer since i have none e mail flame at marshatt feserve cc purdue edu
rec.autos	q dings in the paint on my hood hello i have a toyota x and in the last few weeks i have been getting quite a few dings in the paint on the hood from rocks and debris off of the road i have never had any major problems with other car trucks in the past maybe a ding once in a while i went to the dealer and he said that it happens all of the time and he recomended putting a bug deflector on the hood he said that the trucks for some unknown reason seem to have this problem more than some cars it seems to me that either my luck is really bad or there might be a problem with the paint painted on a monday morning perhaps how well do these bug deflectors work for small road debris on trucks if anyone has any experiences suggestions please let me know thanks greg thorn wam umd edu
rec.autos	rfi art of clutchless shifting i m wondering if anybody else out there is a clutchless shifter i ve been doing it my self over miles on my current toyota truck i ve got over k i ve heard people talk about how doing this can damage a transmission my experiences suggest otherwise what techniques do you use on some old pieces of junk i drove the transmission was so worn that pumping the clutch was the only way to shift except clutchless to date i ve driven rabbits datsuns comets fords a chevy some where harder than others to shift but generally the higher the milage the smoother quicker easier they where to shift my technique is to ease back off the throttle and at the same time gently wrist back on the shift lever if for some reason i miss the shift window i lightly press the accelerator try agian i ve found that clutchless shifting is eaiser quicker at high rpms i also skip gears some times using krispy
rec.autos	re braindead drivers who don t look ahead in article apr cbnewsd cb att com hhm cbnewsd cb att com herschel h mayo writes anybody is going anywhere so i block the would be passers not only for my own good but theirs as well even though they are often too stupid to realize it ah we are looking for good people just like you we are a very concerned group of citizens who are absolutely disgusted at the way that the majority of drivers simply disobey traffic rules like going above the speed limit passing on our right and riding our tails while all the while we respectfully abide by the rules of this great country and maintain the mandated speed limits with our calibrated certified cruise controls while keeping the respectful car length distance mph speed how many times have you been ticked off by some moron who jumps ahead in the car lengths that you have left between you and the vehicle ahead of you while driving mph finally you have an option we are a totally member supported group that perform functions for our own good for the good of this great country but most of all for those unfortunate ones that are too stupid to realize it bless their souls for a paltry you can join citizens for rationally advanced piloting c r a p a non profit members only society but but but there is a slight hitch the initiation rite to be a full fledged member of this exclusive club you must proof that you are able to be in the fast lane of the busiest interstate in your area keep the correct car lenth mph speedand i know this can be difficult with those morons around not let anybody pass you not in the next lane not in the slow lane not in the breakdown lane not nowhere for a complete list of acceptable interstates and times send and by the way over of our members are highly regarded attorneys in the auto field and they are completely absolutely positively in the business only to serve your best interests as a testament to their virtues they will give members off the initial consultation fee feel free to drop me a line at your earliest convenience and remember only speed kills jit
rec.autos	lois chevrolet i was whatching the history of the indy the other day and early in the film around the s a name lois chevrolet came out of the blue i wanted to know if he is the chevrolet founder or mearly a driver who s name was called the same as the other guy s koni
rec.autos	help mercury capri query hi folks i recently bought a mercury capri my first car ever i have noticed a few problems with the car it gives very low gas mileage something like miles gallon i hear other car owners speak of gas mileage figures like miles gallon wow etc when i start the car it goes into high idling something like or is it rpm after driving or miles it comes down to or rpm i would like to know if there is any way by which i can fix these problems or is it natural for an old car like this it has done about miles someone suggested that i change rebuild recondition the carburettor i am not prepared to do it unless i am sure it will fix the problem and yes i got the car tuned up recently within the last miles or so please let me know if you have any suggestions please respond by email since i don t scan this newsgroup regularly thanks regards sudhi sira gopinath sudhindranath email sudhi ucs usl edu is he one of us or is he one of them so ask small minded men those of noble mind think the entire world as their family hitopadesha
rec.autos	help find stolen car i offered to relay this information for a ham friend of mine without internet access his name is robert bob wondolowski n kda and his car was a brown cutlas sierra sedan massachusetts plate adl his ht yaesu ft and mobile antenna were also included in the car it was stolen from lynn mass about days ago being on april if anyone has any information about the car s whereabouts please e mail me thank you for taking the time to read this message scott ehrlich internet wy z world std com amateur radio wy z packet radio wy z k ugm ma usa na scott ehrlich internet wy z world std com amateur radio wy z packet radio wy z k ugm ma usa na
rec.autos	subaru shop manuals for sale o subaru service manuals this is not a complete set but includes sections which cover mechanical components suspension wheels axles steering brakes pedals control cables heater ventilator air conditioning body body exterior doors windows seats seat belts interior instrument panel and electrical engine electrical system body electrical system wiring diagram and trouble shooting these are the genuine subaru issue manuals they are for model year but have plenty of good information that applies to other years as well and as long as i m posting end of car stuff o miscellaneous darkroom equipment solar enlarger several objective lenses with easel and timer negative carriers for mm and x misc printing masks developing tanks thermometer trays constant temperature bath ground glass mirrors darkroom lamps glassware el cheap o tripods and as they say much more o beautiful antique buffet solid cherry no veneer handmade with very interesting dovetail corners in the drawers built we think around not gaudy or covered with gew gaws a simple elegant piece of furniture but too big long tall deep for our little cape cod house will deliver pricier items ie over anywhere in the rochester area and will consider delivering the others will deliver any of it on uofr campus between now and graduation call or e mail paul or mary just south of rochester ny plkg ltd uhura cc rochester edu
rec.autos	isuzu amigo opinions wanted is there anyone out there in netland that has has had one of these can someone give me a non consumer reports review or point me to a source thanks scott sdexter ucrengr ucr edu computer science undergraduate university of california riverside internet sdexter technet shl com facilities engineer shl systemhouse inc technology network internet you say its gonna happen now what exactly do you mean you see i ve already waited too long and all my hope is gone the smiths
rec.autos	re options that would be great to have in article apr acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes a list of options that would be useful they can be existing options on a car or things you d like to have tripmeter great little gadget lets you keep rough track of mileage makes a good second guesser for your gas gauge full size spare built in mountings and power systems for radar detectors a fitting that allows you to generate household current with the engine running and plug ins in the trunk engine compartment and cabin feel free to add on ok how about a fuel gauge that really told you how much fuel was left like can i make it to where the gas is or should i get gouged right here at accurate to the tenth of a gallon would be great on contract to gk khalsa ncr engineering and manufacturing w bernardo dr san diego ca g k khalsa sandiego ncr com
rec.autos	runner and pathfinder recent changes i am interested in finding out how the runner and pathfinder have been updated in the past few years like new engine suspension and the like i noticed that the and runners are identical for example and was looking into buying a used one any info would be appreciated esp models years to check out or avoid thx andy brandt cs unc edu
rec.autos	re plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences daubendr nextwork rose hulman edu darren r daubenspeck writes they are pretty much junk stay away from them they will be replaced next year with all new models junk they ve made the c d lists for years due to their excellent handling and acceleration they have been around since about oh or so they re not the newest on the lot and mileage is about five to eight mpg under the class leader you can get into a l v hp shadow for k the i turbo a bit more and a droptop for k as an ex fleet mgr of cars they were amoung the most trouble free of all models i bought one for my wife
rec.autos	re best radar detector in article apr lrc edu burnside br lrc edu writes in article apr opencon com giand opencon com deepak s gia nchandani writes mubashir cheema don t buy one that is the best way to avoid tickets i used to have one and whenever a cop would pull me over see the thing give me a ticket one time my sister was driving and had it in the glove compartment it was broken and she got a ticket in i had received tickets because of it one for my sister so a total of five that was five years ago now i don t have one and have not gotten a ticket my driving habits have not changed drastically only two days ago i was going mph on highway with mph limit cop saw me i break a little nothing happened i was driving a mini van with my family in it otherwise i have cutlass supreme which i do most of the times on the highway so basically my opnion is not to get one if you do get pulled over the cop will hear your excuse but if you have a radar detecter he will not again this has been my experienc just get a remote model that is not visible to the cop but be sure to get front and rear sensors you can also just put the detector off to the side on the dash so the cop doesn t see it right away valentine is the best detector by far as stated by car and driver and even tells you what direction the radar is coming from it also gives the amount of threats it is picking up so if you go through the same place everyday and it always goes off there you can glance at the number of threats the valentine is detecting to see if it is a genuine cop it s about and you can only get it factory direct one problem rob fusi rwf lehigh edu
rec.autos	re mr noisy engine in article apr engr washington edu eliot lanmola engr washington edu eliot writes if the noise really bugs you there is nothing else that you can do except to sell it and get a v perhaps a nice used pontiac fiero gt liters does anyone know if the motor mounts for the and the twin dual cam liter match the is supposedly derived from the pushrod which was a punched out liter should be a drop in replacement eh horses in a mid engine the size of a fiero larry smith smith ctron com no i don t speak for cabletron need you ask liberty is not the freedom to do whatever we want it is the freedom to do whatever we are able
rec.autos	re most bang for k in article uupcb cutting hou tx us david bonds cutting hou tx us da vid bonds writes in rec autos cpkjp vm cc latech edu kevin parker writes i d like to get some feedback on a car with most bang for the buck in the to price range i m looking for a car with enough civility to be driven every day or even on long trips but when i hit the gas i want to fee l take a look at a taurus sho they can be found for k and are the ultimate in door sports cars performance similar to a mustang but quite civil and comfortable try to get a late model for the better shifter the cutting edge bbs cutting hou tx us a pcboard a system houston texas usa running uupcb well you could always go with a mustang lx with a pleasant v but the diamond star cars talon eclipse laser put out hp in the turbo models and hp in the awd turbo models these cars also have handling to match the muscle and are civil in regular driving conditions rather than having a harsh stiff ride the awd turbo is clearly the better choice of the two because of all that torque steer on the front drive model but you may have to go with a leftover or slightly used model for that price range tough decision rob fusi rwf lehigh edu
rec.autos	re birds are they physics majors in c pn p l darkside osrhe uoknor edu operator writes crazy question anyone ever wonder how birds can drop a load on a car going over mph i took a non stop trip got shitted on four times every time hitting the windshield not even the open sunroof guess we have conscientious birds was going mph i used to have a galaxie convertible was sitting at a light waiting for it to turn green it turned green but i hesitated a little sleeping i guess and a bird bombed me it landed directly in front of me at eye level i guess the bird miscalculated and thought i was going to take off right away and i m still trying to figure out the one i got under my rear bumper as well was the bird flying up and doing fancy acrobatics at my car and decided to drop one while executing a perfect loop tt mustang gt george kirkaldie pioneer audio control gkirkaldie sanity tdkcs waterloo on ca phoenix gold kicker flowmaster motorsport cambridge ontario canada a t a r i
rec.autos	any syclone or typhoon owners out there i want to start of list for syclone and typhoon owners if you are interested in participating please contact me via e mail merrill
rec.autos	re wife wants convertible nuet ke pts mot com keith nuetzman x p writes help my wife has informed me that she wants a convertible for her next car we live in south fla so we are definitely in the right are for one my wife has mentioned the miata but i think it is too small i would like to wait for the new mustangs dec i think anyone have any opinions on any all convertibles in a reasonable price range thanx the olds supreme convertible got high marks in c d s recent test if you can get by the stupid body moldings and stuff the saab ragtop may be out of your range but its a good choice is there a new f car convertible the nissan sx convertible is a nice car also those immediately come to mind chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu neil peart c quick to judge quick to anger slow to understand ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand
rec.autos	re manual shift bigots wanted the best auto shifters on the street and not the track are those from porsche they wont change if you floor the gas during a turn a few years back a was in a sx auto you guys call it a sx without turbo and was going round a corner i floored it and next thing i know i was pointing backwards the other drivers seemed quite amused shaz
rec.autos	re improvements in automatic transmissions i just wanted to know to wheelspin in an auto you keep the gear in n gas it then stick the gear in d i ve never tried this but am sure it works but does this screw up the autobox we re having a bit of a debate about it here
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all time dumbest options well here in the uk bmw offer a no smokers option it just means they take the fag lighter out big deal btw i just bought a honda crx f its neat did consider an mr targa mx you guys call it miata but that crx just one my heart with that body kit and spokes ps is richard out there somewhere
rec.autos	re dumbest automotive concepts of all tim in article el targhee idaho amdahl com rbs sawtooth idaho amdahl com bob smith writes in article apr cas org sdm cas org writes imho the dumbest thing we ever did in copying the japanese was moving the dimmer switch from the floor to the lever controlling the turn signal cruise control bun warmer etc well my porsche had the dimmer on the turn signal stalk guess those dumb germans were copying the japanese too rest deleted not to mention my friend s citroen traction avant with the light switch and dimmer integrated in a single stalk off the steering column those dumb french were apparently copying the japanese before the germans roland
rec.autos	re what is volvo in article sernews raleigh ibm com mperry vnet ibm com mark perry writes hardly a good reason most us cars do too and plenty of people buy them in the us anyway i think the is quite a good looking car unlike the us influenced kevinh hasler ascom ch i don t think it s so easy to tell the from any other or series unless you look real close i really do think volvo s are all dogs though beacuse they are agricultural while previous volvos have been essentially very fast tractors the and series are far from agricultural in design or execution how many fwd tractors have you seen have godlier than thou advertising you state this like it is a bad thing remember car companies use ad agencies they don t do their own ads are part of renault is this true i know that they had done joint ventures with renault but i haven t heard about their subsumption into renault does this mean that the french government now owns volvo anyway renault makes some very nice cars they just don t sell em in n america however one thing that i do think is in their favour is that they are immediately recognisable as a volvo and that is not something you can say about most japanese manufacturers and ford saab also have a strong corparate look which like it or not is what i thing all car makers could aim for to make life a little more varied here here mperry vnet ibm com roland rhorwell atc boeing com
rec.autos	re manual shift bigots in article c liw cax news rich bnr ca peon w o email eric youngblood writes in article qn lo c s vela acs oakland edu mje pookie pass wayne edu michael j edelman writes the big disadvantage of automatics is the hp they consume that never gets to the wheels in this respect they are at a disadvantage to a manual only when the torque converter is not locked up there are autos out there with converter lock up in nd rd and th gears dont forget that now that new speed manual trannys are available the drive train is more optimally geared to get the most out of the engine rare so are speed autos but very real bottom line is both manuals and automatics have vastly improved i think that automatics have advanced far more than manuals especially in shift intelligence i say that a smart automatic is better than the majority of drivers in terms of being in the right gear at the right time which to me is more important than torque converter losses i prefer the stick for fun and the auto for traffic who says you can t have your cake and eat it too a well designed shifter will easily facilitate manual clutchless shifts i am referring to the much copied mercedes jagged gate the only department where you lose out is in the number of ratios available and of course the converter losses if ayrton senna can drive a racecar with fully automatic transmission it can t be half bad eliot
rec.autos	re warning please read callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison writes i m not going to argue the issue of carrying weapons but i would ask you if you would have thought seriously about shooting a kid for setting off your alarm i can think of worse things in the world glad you got out of there before they did anything to give you a reason to fire your gun i think people have a right to kill to defend their property why not be honest do you really care more about scum than about your car
rec.autos	re sho and sc in article c l re constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison writes why anyone would order an sho with an automatic transmission is beyond me if you can t handle a stick you should stick with a regular taurus and leave the sho to real drivers that is not to say that there aren t real drivers who can t use the stick eg disabled persons but they aren t in any position to use an sho anyway actually disabled persons have been known to drive in scca races i d be careful about making sweeping generalizations here i d prefer a manual transmission but the early sho had an awful transmission that felt like it came out of a truck or something it was almost enough to make me want an automatic teddy
rec.autos	re too fast in article qmcih dhs armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes boyle cactus org craig boyle writes the quality of autobahns is something of a myth the road surface isn t much different to a typical tx freeway they are better in terms of lighting safety signs roadmarkings etc they light the highways in texas funny everywhere else i ve been they only light em at junctions sorry by they i meant autobahns not us freeways i won t even get into how much road markings vary between states and localities except to say that there are some areas where markings are essentially nonexistant than most of the roads here a dip in the asphalt that you test your shocks on at will kill you at don t get me wrong i love to it would have to be quite severe i don t recall any us freeway without road damage warnings that i would regard as unsafe at in any decent well damped car i suspect you have very limited experience us freeways vary dramatically particularly between states i can name a number of interstate highways in various parts of the country where would be very optimistic in any car well i ve driven in every state but alaska and drive about k per year i take long cross country trips any chance i get its fun for me and i can get reimbursment my job allows me to drive rather than fly not to labor the point but i ve driven just about every freewayin the us germany uk and france plus some in mexico which was surpisingly good i m not sure what you call quite severe in terms of road deviations but i suspect every single bridge junction on i through ct would be considered so they re hard to take at mph that s not the only interstate i ve seen with such deviations but it s one i drive frequently yes but as a age of the total freeway in the us all you have to do in this case is mark the hazard advising people to slow to or so texas is pretty much an edge case you can t assume that everywhere has roads in such good condition such flat terrain and such texas freeways are varied sometimes a good surface mostly flat but i in ca is comparable and hilly wide open spaces it just ain t so given the absence of other traffic and car built for e g most us freeways are just fine the problem is other road users and cops jim frost jimf centerline com craig
rec.autos	re plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences in article oprsfnx gsusgi gsu edu oprsfnx gsusgi gsu edu stephen f nicholas writes stuff about dodge shadow deleted as an ex fleet mgr of cars they were amoung the most trouble free of all models i bought one for my wife what do you mean by all models all models of cars all chrysler models all models that the fleet manager had bought because there is no way in hell that the shadow is the most reliable car of all models sold not even chrysler s dept of lies damned lies and statistics would claim that craig
rec.autos	re ultimate awd vehicles in article apr engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes the price of parts is a different story though you can say that again how does for a new thermostat sound teddy
rec.autos	big block as the subject says it has k and my brother in law wants please don t reply to me as i am posting this for him here s his numbers pm pm daytime dave schrader schrader eai iastate edu
rec.autos	re plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences in article oprsfnx gsusgi gsu edu oprsfnx gsusgi gsu edu stephen f nicholas writes daubendr nextwork rose hulman edu darren r daubenspeck writes they are pretty much junk stay away from them they will be replaced next year with all new models junk they ve made the c d lists for years due to their excellent handling and acceleration they have been around since about oh or so they re not the newest on the lot and mileage is about five to eight mpg under the class leader you can get into a l v hp shadow for k the i turbo a bit more and a droptop for k as an ex fleet mgr of cars they were amoung the most trouble free of all models i bought one for my wife nnnnnnnng thank you for playing i cannot agree with this i believed this and to put it nicely it was a piece of junk i loved this car i babied it i pampered it and after years it just couldn t stay together i would say that not everyone will have the problems that i had but know this it s not just the car it is the ability to get the car fixed which will not happen at any chrysler dodge take your pick dealer i don t care if there are going to reform their dealers service with the intro of the lh cars i will believe it when i see it case and point the local dodge dealer you drive up just looking you don t even get out of your door when about yes salesman all eye you like their next meal and literally pounce on you and try to get you to make a deal on everything your eye wanders towards service is about times worse than that i had an alignment problem but they tried to tell me that the k frame was bent and about dollars of work parts to fix it let me tell you the problems i had and i took care of this car i put alot of miles on it in the first couple years but took it to every checkup it needed and many that shouldn t have been dodge shadow es these were replaced within the years that i owned the car engine alternators rear suspension torsion bar water pumps thermostats hall effect sensor main computer batteries these were rebuilt repaired radiator automatic transmission power steering those are just the things i can remember off the top of my head for about a year before i sold the car i said to myself it s a good car i just can t find anybody competent enough the fix it in the end before i traded it in for a saturn the power steering started acting up again i just stopped putting money into it i must have put at least worth of repairs over it s lifetime i am sorry but lee iacocca can bite me bullshit whoever backs em best is just afraid the stupid things are going to fall apart and no one will buy them without assurance why the hell do you think that lh has been nicknamed last hope you can do better and i know people will disagree with me here but japanese like honda or toyota or the only american car company that i feel is a quality product saturn i will not touch another chrysler product again no way i don t care how good the lh cars look good and i will admit they look promising but not with the support that you get gm isn t much better thank god they don t control saturn like they do their divisions or it would be just another marketing ploy don t get me wrong i will be watching my car which i do like like a hawk for the next years i am much more hesitant to say it or any car is really good until it has proved itself to me but since someone else pointed out c d as a source i will note because i used to read these magazines that car and driver has never had a good thing to say about most chrysler products shadow for one always were they moaning about the reguritated k car and engine whereas motor trend always thought they were great cars no car magazine is really objective and although there are alot of people who don t like consumers reports i will use them to reinforce my argument i already know about the big stink with the saturn crash tests time will tell how good a car they are the shadow sundance rate much worse than average in fact none of the chrysler s rate a better than average i think the best one is just average excluding the diamond star mitsubishi stuff and the lh s you can find bad stuff about the shadow try as i might when i researched the saturn i could not find anything bad about it there is a great deal of information about this company just because it is a new american company and it has created quite a stir in the automotive community for good reason much more than the introduction of any new model lines of any established company i read an article which had a sub column an i think this imprinted on me more than anything else some big wig in toyota said and i quote we are watching them very closely come on everybody grow up the foreign cars especially the japanese have been kicking our butts for good reason the american car companies could not make a good product or support the customer the way they want these days to set in their ways which is one of the reasons saturn was created they are still struggling because they haven t learned yet they have the ability the workers are not inferior the technology is not out of date but their attitude is and they are just finding this out it s called competition gentleman women if you don t satisfy the demand of the consumer well your out asbestos suit on gaia
rec.autos	buick heater controls i have a buick skylark with k on it i bought it in california and if it ll let me i d like to keep it for another year the only problem is these indiana winters my heater controls don t work the car has vacuum operated control switches for the vents right now it is stuck in the vent mode it will blow warm air but i can t switch the air flow to either the floor i can live without this or the defrost i can t live without this i probably could just jam the air deflector to the defrost position but this blows a lot of air in my face and is well kind of like putting a vacuum cleaner in reverse i have taken parts of the dash off and looked at the vacuum system and i think the problem or part of it is with the two diaphragms which control up down and outside inside air flow the diaphragm which controls outside vent in side no vent air is cracked most of the way around and the other one is probably damaged too considering the advanced age of the car two questions is there anything i should be aware of about this other than the fact that i should move from indiana in the event that replacement diaphragms aren t available is there a way to fix this thanks for any advice info selah dan lovall physics purdue edu
rec.autos	re impala ss going into does that mean that they re gonna bring back the biscayne and bel air or how about the george howell goucher wb ffv ampr org george
rec.autos	re need info on porsche s in article midway uchicago edu buzy quads uchicago edu len buzyna writes hi there i ve recently been toying with the idea of purchasing an old the going rate seems to be about for cars with anywhere from k mi my question is this what should i expect at this price should i expect to have extensive body work done what about engine transmission should i likewise expect to have both virtually replaced along those lines does anyone have the names addresses of any mail order parts suppliers for everything from engine to body parts i m completely new to the area of restoring cars and as i don t actually do any work with cars most of the work would have to be professionally done what sould i expect the cost of upgrading a to a rust free mechanically sound automobile thanks in advance andre true enthusiasts will be able to give you a better answer then this but i ll dump my impressions i ve wanted to own a for about years now came close once but i ended up buying a fiero instead biggest mistake of my life anyway for you should be able to get a nice car but your also set in the price range to get taken by a nice looker that is a pile of shit the most common total failure for the car would be frame rust between the engine and passenger compartment also look for chassis welded together here oh yeah the price range you are talking about must be the banger a if you could find one would be mucho more bucks parts for the engine are pretty easy to come by for an old car and you can even locate crude in the jc whitney catalog if you have too the machine itself is pretty simple they use the spare tire for windshild washer instead of a pump fer chris sake so getting it fixed by a good bug porsche mechanic would be easy since it is mid engine you may spend more on labor for any mechanical work jeff miller network systems corporation internetwork group boone avenue north jmiller network com minneapolis mn
rec.autos	re militech jchen wind bellcore com jason chen writes i saw an interesting product in ny auto show and would like to hear your comments militech tm is yet another oil additive but the demonstration of this product really impressive if it didn t cheat well i heard that militech stuff works pretty good too one of my friends who races in scca sanctioned events and all that stuff got the militech stuff early as a trial thing and he put it in his crx he says it worked great but i didn t ask him for any details erich erich lim yob sccsi com ye olde bailey bbs v bis v bis houston texas yob sccsi com home of alt cosuard
rec.autos	honda new car info from kay honda s helpful hints about your honda infromation sheet given to new owners of honda vehicles a burning smell may be evident from your new car shortly after taking delivery i now own a fire extinguisher on prelude s mels at temperatures above degrees push the accelerator pedal to the floor one time release slowly and with your foot off the accelerator crank the engine until it starts moe than seconds my note of cranking may be required in temperatures below degrees the accelerator will have to be depressed times door panels and interior trim can be damaged if they are not buckled by getting caught when closing doors when shifting accord automatic transmissions from park neutral or reverse into drive the transmission shifts into rd gear in case of towing start the engine shift into drive from park then from drive to neutral turn off engine what if you are getting towed b c engine won t run if engine does not run do not use this procedure phew i was worried insert smilies where appropriate though this is real jonathan jdrout scott skidmore edu skidmore college saratoga ny civic si aftermarket fogs if you own one you understand
rec.autos	re for hail damage a record in article apr cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes in article apr pencom com stecz pencom com writes in article apr cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes my integra was hit hard in the hailstorm in austin tx the insurance company cut me a check for deductible last week is this a record anybody else had settlements from the same hailstorm yet craig rumor has it that a guy at dell computer had his miata totalled so that would be about k i guess it either had the top down or the hail ripped through the top as you could not do k worth of hail damage to a miata body craig john steczkowski stecz pencom com the constitution grants you the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness it does not attempt to guarantee that everyone will be happy there was a volvo owner that had dollars worth of improvements to the looks of the car by hail
rec.autos	re warning please read in article c srib ah constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison writes in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian j queiser writes anything if he hadn t emptied his gun into the asshole texas it s whole other country that reminds me of one of texas s ads you hear a guy speaking in french like it s a letter home then the french moves to the background and a french accented voice come to the foreground talking about how he went walking on the beach and it felt so much like home that he decided to take his shoes off and the rest of his clothes it ended with please send bail on an rec autos note does anyone carry a gun on them or keep one in their car which is bad idea isn t it if you work in a bad part of town or regularly go through one is this a loaded question i normally have an unloaded colt delta in my glove box with a loaded magazine handy which is perfectly legal in oklahoma for those times that i m travelling inter state i keep an unloaded s w magnum revolver in the glove box with a speed loader in my pocket which is legal everywhere under federal law illinois state police be hanged as i ve said before this is stricly for defense my insurance will pay to replace my car but i only have one life james carrying a pistol loaded or unloaded in the glove compartment is considered carrying a concealed weapon in colorado and is illegal without a concealed weapons permit unless the law has been changed recently carrying a weapon openly is legal in colorado but concealing it is illegal i read a newspaper account last year where police stopped a car on a traffic infraction and observed a magnum revolver sitting on the seat the driver could not be cited for possessing or carrying the weapon because it was not concealed the article stated that if the gun had been discovered in the glove box it would have been considered a crime ken franklin they say there s a heaven for people who wait ama and some say it s better but i say it ain t gwrra i d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints dod the sinners are lots more fun y know only the good die young
rec.autos	sunroof leaks i m all wet my sunroof leaks i ve always thought those things were a royal pain can anyone provide any insight i know the seal isn t great maybe i could weld the stupid thing shut hk
rec.autos	re manual shift bigots i prefer a manual to an automatic as it should be i believe that automatics should only be manufactured for people with physical disabilities who otherwise would not be able to drive automatic transmissions allow drivers to be lazy more time is available to fiddle with the radio or to look at the scenery instead of concentrating on the road the manual transmission keeps the drive always doing something granted it isn t a large movement plus driving should be fun driving a manual is fun driving an automatic is a chore in the case of shift speed automatics can be made to shift far faster that any human could move a stick if i was racing i d want and automatic for normal driving go with the manual
rec.autos	re plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences in article qofeainnn h shelley u washington edu gaia carson u washington edu i we are gaia writes just stopped putting money into it i must have put at least worth of repairs over it s lifetime i am sorry but lee iacocca can bite me bullshit whoever backs em best is just afraid the stupid things area the part about spending on repairs reminds me of an article i read in a magazine comparing the year ownership costs of a toyota camry and a ford taurus or something like that the result which they announced with great flourish was that it cost the same at the end of the period that was their argument to prove that you don t go wrong buying the ford taurus over the camry now if i remember correctly the camry costs about or so more in initial costs essentially it means that you spend about extra on repairs on the taurus that is ridiculous every time your car needs repairs it is extra hassles loss of time and a dozen other things i would much rather spend more in initial costs than spend more in repair costs cut here for signature balaji ramanathan institute of transportation studies i don t believe in luck university of california irvine i rely on it
rec.autos	my two cars chevy nova cl and dodge se as you can see i have two cars both worth about each the problem is that maintenance costs on these two cars is running about per year and insurance per year what am i doing wrong within the last two months the follows costs have occured dodge se dodge s attempt at the american german car replace head gasket new radiator chevy nova cl chevy s attempt at a japan import tune up oil change valve gasket middle exhaust pipe misc note also that the chevy nova cl has only horsepwer does anyone out there have a chevy nova with enough power to get up even a small hill without knocking is there something wrong with my car i even use octane gas i have consider going to octane if i can find it anyway what are the best maintenance items to do it yourself and what equipment is needed thanks doug car doug from wayne nj
rec.autos	re taurus sable rotor recall antonio l balsamo save the wails balsamo stargl enet dec com wrote from opdbs vm cc latech edu subject taurus sable rotor recall my taurus gl with only k on the clock also has rotor warp apparently they haven t fixed the problem yet but try convincing the ford service person to fix it for free right tony gads i have heard so many horror stories with taurus and sable cars i thought these were premium american automobiles the way they sell you d think so is ford really no better than in the late s when it was turning out tin cans like the granada and the fairmount which would you get a taurus or a camry or accord john zorro picasso ocis temple edu zorro astro ocis temple edu
rec.autos	re i m getting a car i need opinions in article apr ns cc lehigh edu ip ns cc lehigh edu d anny phornprapha writes i have as my budget i m looking for a sports or gt car what do you think would be the best buy i m looking for specific models thanks danny i d say an rx would be right up there you could easily deal down to it has some of the most impressive performance figures around and automotive magazines eat it up one car to seriously consider in that price range rob fusi rwf lehigh edu
rec.autos	re i m getting a car i need opinions in a previous article ip ns cc lehigh edu danny phornprapha says i have as my budget i m looking for a sports or gt car what do you think would be the best buy i m looking for specific models thanks danny hey you programmers out there danny phornprapha please consider this ip lehigh edu bugs are another endangered earth lucc student konsultant species needing your protection work for an all out sports car i d go for the rx without the sports suspension which is too stiff for a little more practicality and more comfort the nissan zx turbo is a good buy and for a good dose of luxury the lexus sc is perfect with a manual transmission of course however the toyota supra is coming out soon and if you like it s looks the performance is supposed to be great almost race car like i don t particulary like the mitsubishi gt s or the dodge stealths as they are too heavy and aren t very nimble handlers for a sports car a motion picture major at the brooks institute of photography ca santa barbara and a foreign student from kuala lumpur malaysia the mind is the forerunner of all states
rec.autos	there s rust on my beamer help actually i wasn t too surprised since i bought it with the rust any of you got some ideas of getting rid of this cheaply key word it has eaten all the way through on the door panels can i use bondo also is there a good paint that will bond to aluminum rims the paint thati was on my rims has peeled off actually there s some rust looking stuff on the rims themselves but it comes off pretty easily one more thing have any of you done self painting to a car how do you start what do i need to do this please help me jesse
rec.autos	re chryslers compact lh sedans cka uxa cso uiuc edu carolinafan uiuc writes shoppa almach caltech edu tim shoppa writes i thought that the v was originally designed for a truck not necessarily a pickup and then just sort of dropped into the viper s frame because it fit and was available a friend of mine and i saw and heard a viper and my friend s first response was that it sounded like a truck it sounded fine to me but then again i don t like the whiny noise that most modern sports car engines make btw the viper we saw was moving at about mph just like all of the other cars on the freeway heading east out of la on a friday afternoon looked really nice though actually i was under the impression that the v in the viper was not the v that dodge was developing for its new kenworths i have always thought it was the exhaust system and not the engine that produced the noise of a car well yes the exhaust is where the majority of the noise comes out but the basics tone firing cadence etc are determined by the engine configuration in the case of the viper yes we are discussing a huge multicylinder deg engine which will sound somewhat like a truck and my understanding btw is that that v engine was designed originally with the intention of being ad aptible for either the trucks or the viper and from what i ve heard no first hand knowledge it s doing a pretty good job at both and the best exhaust sound in the world is now and will always be a degree dohc colombo designed v period michael t chaffee mchaffee ux cso uiuc edu email mchaffee sumter cso uiuc edu nextmail sig under construction excuse
rec.autos	advice on used car hi i was looking for some helpful advice i m a university student with about to spend and i m looking for a used car does anyone have any useful advice they could offer to a first time buyer i m not looking for anything sporty just something functional and reliable less maintenance costs anybody have any ideas on what models might suit me thanks sanjai
rec.autos	re plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences in article bd bdc news service uci edu raman translab its uci edu balaji v ramanathan writes the part about spending on repairs reminds me of an article i read in a magazine comparing the year ownership costs of a toyota camry and a ford taurus or something like that the result which they announced with great flourish was that it cost the same at the end of the period that was their argument to prove that you don t go wrong buying the ford taurus over the camry now if i remember correctly the camry costs about or so more in initial costs essentially it means that you spend about extra on repairs on the taurus that is ridiculous every time your car needs repairs it is extra hassles loss of time and a dozen other things i would much rather spend more in initial costs than spend more in repair costs did you account for depreciation i seriously doubt that a taurus would rack up an extra in repair costs over years teddy
rec.autos	re wife wants convertible in a previous article nuet ke pts mot com keith nuetzman x p says help my wife has informed me that she wants a convertible for her next car we live in south fla so we are definitely in the right are for one my wife has mentioned the miata but i think it is too small i would like to wait for the new mustangs dec i think anyone have any opinions on any all convertibles in a reasonable price range thanx geo metro lsi drew
rec.autos	re too fast in a previous article callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison says in article qn ev g usenet ins cwru edu aas po cwru edu andrew a spencer writes in a previous article wrat unisql uucp wharfie says in article qkon re armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes larger engine that s what the sho is a slightly modified family sedan with a powerful engine they didn t even bother improving the brakes that shows how much you know about anything the brakes on the sho are very different inch or i forget discs all around vented in front the normal taurus setup is smaller discs front drums rear one i saw had vented rears too it was on a lot of course the sales man was a fool titanium wheels yeah right then later told me they were magnesium more believable but still crap since al is so m uch cheaper and just as good i tend to agree tho that this still doesn t take the sho up to standard for running on a regular basis the brakes should be bigger like or so take a look at the ones on the corrados where they have braking regulations well let s see my t bird sc has a computer controlled adjustable suspension wheel abs disks vented front rear point belts sturdy passenger compartment aerodynamics good enough for nascar without too much change hp ft lb supercharged l v wheel independent suspension plus limited slip differential with a top speed in excess of mph and rides on v rated tires i have yet to find r s in any other speed rating is that up to standard if not why not james james i really hate to do this but try reading the damn posts never was a t bird mentioned the discussion was about sho s and stangs not being up to spec i do not know about t birds i only know that the specs quoted for the sho by previous poster sounded a little anemic for me to say that it was up to snuff this does not in any way disencourage me from wishing to own one nor does it make it a bad car it merely means that i think ford could have added that extra bit of safety and tossed in larger brakes as the wheels are plenty large enough for them to fit if memory serves right which it may very well not and the motor plenty powerful enough to need it c ya drew
rec.autos	re warning please read matmcinn nuscc nus sg matthew macintyre at the national university of senegal writes callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison writes i m not going to argue the issue of carrying weapons but i would ask you if you would have thought seriously about shooting a kid for setting off your alarm i can think of worse things in the world glad you got out of there before they did anything to give you a reason to fire your gun i think people have a right to kill to defend their property why not be honest do you really care more about scum than about your car i can t tell if matt is being sarcastic here or not but to be honest many automobiles are worth far more to their owners in value and investment than the people that would take them i don t have figures on average property tax in the u s or how much of it is allocated for housing projects inferior public schools jails or the like but i have a feeling that the amount the government steals from an honest productive citizen to breed this trash is significantly less than the value of many automobiles and for those who will argue that the animals out there stealing cars and everything else not to mention committing completely senseless acts of violence such as rape cannot be valued in terms of money because they are human beings i submit that they are not human beings jim callison i think is on the right track and chintan amin remarked earlier that we cannot blame environment for the actions of a single criminal i couldn t agree more one could trace any crime back to the environment upbringing of the criminal should we let all of them out from pickpockets to rapists to inside traders because what they did wasn t their fault where does one draw the line michael t chaffee mchaffee ux cso uiuc edu email mchaffee sumter cso uiuc edu nextmail sig under construction excuse
rec.autos	re viper rmt r faraday clas virginia edu roy matthew thigpen writes last night i had a dream that my dad bought a viper i took it out for a test drive without his knowledge and had to push it all the way home just to avoid a ticket wierd dream i wonder what it means vell let s see vas you muzzah in der passenger seat or vas you muzzah in der leefing room vit you fazah m feeling a tad bit freudian doubtless inspired by the magnificent phallic ness some word of the viper
rec.autos	re warning please read in article apr nuscc nus sg matmcinn nuscc nus sg matthew macintyre at the national university of senegal writes callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james p callison writes i m not going to argue the issue of carrying weapons but i would ask you if you would have thought seriously about shooting a kid for setting off your alarm i can think of worse things in the world glad you got out of there before they did anything to give you a reason to fire your gun i think people have a right to kill to defend their property why not be honest do you really care more about scum than about your car yo watch the attributions i didn t say that again this isn t an appropriate forum for discussions on whether you should shoot someone for property damage vandalism theft but every responsible gun owner realizes that there are limits and the punishment must fit the crime i mean think about it is a really harmless prank worth killing over as i said the situation described punks setting off alarms and taunting people to come out could turn very ugly very quickly and it is worth being prepared when your life is potentially on the line james james p callison microcomputer coordinator u of oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i m not an engineer but i play one at work the forecast calls for thunder t bird sc it s a hell of a thing killing a man you take away all he has and all he s ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	re manual shift bigots eliot lanmola engr washington edu eliot writes in article c liw cax news rich bnr ca peon w o email eric youngblood writes in article qn lo c s vela acs oakland edu mje pookie pass wayne edu michael j edelman writes the big disadvantage of automatics is the hp they consume that never gets to the wheels in this respect they are at a disadvantage to a manual only when the torque converter is not locked up there are autos out there with converter lock up in nd rd and th gears w r t performance converter lockup is purely irrelevant the lockup only occurs at light throttle settings and serves only to improve mpg mind you a converter clutch does a lovely job of improving mpg but the additional mechanical advantage of the converter gives you more acceleration vs locked converter clutch than its inherent losses take away michael t chaffee mchaffee ux cso uiuc edu email mchaffee sumter cso uiuc edu nextmail sig under construction excuse
rec.autos	re the kuebelwagen thwang mentor cc purdue edu tommy hwang writes sorry for the mis spelling but i forgot how to spell it after my series of exams and no on hand reference here is it still possible to get those cute wwii vw jeep wanna be s a replica would be great i think tkh according to the complete guide to specialty cars th edition from crown publishing it s the vw kubelwagen w dots over the u the company is wolfkam p o box vika oslo norway voice line fax line an excerpt from the blurb this fine kubel clone from wolfkam is a very close copy of the original and offers the same all weather and cross country capabilities as its wwii forebears the robust fiberglass body kit is very complete and includes all the hardware you will need except for your own vw donor car the phone number is the entire at t dialing sequence call and ask for karl torum or send cash or international money order for a complete literature package george p s i d be happy to share what info i have on other kit cars and kit car manufacturers p p s i m looking for a used or partially completed porsche speedster convertible d replica from intermeccanica i d appreciate any leads or advice stories from any owners out there
rec.autos	re plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences daubendr nextwork rose hulman edu darren r daubenspeck writes they are pretty much junk stay away from them they will be replaced next year with all new models junk they ve made the c d lists for years due to their excellent handling and acceleration they have been around since about oh or so they re not the newest on the lot and mileage is about five to eight mpg under the class leader you can get into a l v hp shadow for k the i turbo a bit more and a droptop for k how can car be any good that has s n a c u d n e written on the back with crooked letters as if a year old had written it hehhehehehahaha about as silly as crysler s attemps to make the label on the back of some of their other cars appear like they are mercedes sorry i couldn t resist barryb
rec.autos	re automotive crash test performance and maintenance stats i wrote is there a resource available to the consumer comparing all of the makes and models of automobiles trucks vans etc for survivability in a crash of different severities also i ve found very little objective data comparing different vehicles for handling pick up braking expected maintenance etc i recall years ago consumer reports annual buyer s guide was much more informative in those aspects than it is now thanks to a reply from someone i looked a little further and found what i was looking for the april cr magazine has most of the above things despite recent articles here the ratings looked pretty good for relative comparison purposes unfortunately the crash test comparisons didn t include half of the cars i m comparing anybody know how honda civic hatchbacks and toyota tercels fare in an accident boyd johnson nosc spectra com johnson san diego california intermittent newsfeed at best and only to selected groups my opinions certainly don t match those of my employer
rec.motorcycles	re lexan polish in article c soe m ns nodak edu wilken plains nodak edu scott wilken writes a couple of years ago i replaced the stock windscreen on my interceptor with a higher one from national cycle the thing happens to be made of lexan can anyone recommend a polish to use on it that is safe for lexan its starting to show a few scratches and id like to polish them out go fast internet wilken plains nodak edu ama take chances uucp uunet plains wilken dod vf f interceptor bitnet wilken plains suggest mcquires plastic polish it will help somewhat but nothing will remove deep scratches without making it worse than it already is mcquires will do something for fine or light stuff also suggest calling your local plastic shop in calif tap plastic is a chain that carries most of what is needed for repair and sometimes replacement of plastic bits telephone in the bay area is i m not sure how amenable they are to shipping i have found that they have several excellent products for cleaning and removing crap from windscreens and face shields also they have one called lift it which works real well in removing sticky stuffs such as adhessives from plastic wihtout scratching same luck jonathan jefferies jeff mri com
rec.motorcycles	faq what is the dod this is a periodic posting intended to answer the frequently asked question what is the dod it is posted the first of each month with an expiration time of over a month thus unless your site s news software is ill mannered this posting should always be available this witdodfaq is crossposted to all four rec motorcycles groups in an attempt to catch most new users and followups are directed to rec motorcycles last changed feb to add a message from the kotl and a bit of halon version this collection was originally assembled by lissa shoun from the original postings with lissa s permission i have usurped the title of kotwitdodfaq any corrections additions bribes etc should be aimed at blgardne javelin sim es com contents how do i get a dod number by blaine gardner dod dod road rider article by bruce tanner dod what is the dod by john sloan dod the dod logo by chuck rogers dod the dod this started it all by the denizen of doom dod the dod anthem by jonathan quist dod why you have to be killed by blaine gardner dod the rec moto photo archive courtesy of bruce tanner dod patches what patches by blaine gardner dod letter from the ama museum by jim rogers director dod the dod rules by consensus other rec moto resources by various keepers dod misc the rec moto reviews archive courtesy of loki jorgenson dod updated stats rides info by ed green dod and others how do i get a dod number if the most frequently asked question in rec motorcycles is what is the dod then the second most frequently asked question must be how do i get a dod number that is as simple as asking the keeper of the list kotl accept no substitue keepers for a number if you re feeling creative and your favorite number hasn t been taken already you can make a request subject to kotl approval warning non numeric non base number requests are likely to earn a flame from the kotl not that you won t get it but you will pay for it oh and just one little tiny suggestion ask the kotl in e mail you ll just be playing the lightning rod for flames if you post to the whole net and you ll look like a clueless newbie too by now you re probably asking so who s the kotl already well as john sloan notes below that s about the only real secret left around here but a few un subtle hints can be divulged first it is not myself nor anyone mentioned by name in this posting maybe though john was the original kotl second in keeping with the true spirit of unix the kotl s first name is only two letters long and can be spelled entirely with hexadecimal characters the kotl shares his name with a line oriented text utility third he has occasionally been seen posting messages bestowing new dod numbers mostly to boneheads with weenie mailers fourth there is reason to suspect the kotl of being a dead head newsflash a message from the kotl once you have surmounted this intellectual pinnacle and electronically groveled to the kotl please keep in mind that the kotl does indeed work for a living and occasionally must pacify its boss by getting something done your request may languish in mailer queue for gasp days perhaps even horrors a week or two during such times of economic activity on the part of the kotl s employers sending yet another copy of your request will not speed processing of the queue it just makes it longer verification of this phenominon is left as an excersize for the reader if you suspect mailer problems at least annotate subsequent requests with an indication that a former request was submitted lest you be assigned multiple numbers what you think the kotl memorizes the list one more thing the kotl says that its telepathic powers aren t what they used to be so provide some information for the list will ya the typical dod list entry contains number name state country e mail address for example ed green ca ed green east sun com ps while john mentions below that net access and a bike are the only requirements for dod membership that s not strictly true these days as there are a number of denizens who lack one or both blaine dances with bikers gardner blgardne javelin sim es com denizens of doom by bruce tanner dod road rider august reprinted with bruce s permission there is a group of motorcyclists that gets together and does all the normal things that a bunch of bikers do they discuss motorcycles and motorcycling beverages cleaning fluids baklavah balaclava caltrops helmets anti fog shields spine protectors aerodynamics three angle valve seats bird hits deer whistles good restaurants racing philosophy traffic laws tickets corrosion control personalities puns double entendres culture absence of culture first rides and friendship they argue with each other and plan rides together the difference between this group and your local motorcycle club is that although they get together just about everyday most have never seen each other face to face the members of this group live all over the known world and communicate with each other electronically via computer the computers range from laptops to multi million dollar computer centers the people range from college and university students to high tech industry professionals to public access electronic bulletin board users currently rec motorcycles pronounced wreck dot motorcycles it s the file name for the group s primary on line meeting place carries about articles per month it is read by an estimated people most of the frequent posters belong to a motorcycle club the denizens of doom usually referred to as the dod the dod started when motorcyclist john r nickerson wrote a couple of parodies designed to poke fun at motorcycle stereotypes fellow computer enthusiast bruce robinson posted these articles under the pen name denizen of doom a while later chuck rogers signed off as dod nr keeper of the flame bruce was then designated dod nr retroactively and of course nickerson the originator of the parodies was given dod nr the idea of a motorcycle club with no organization no meetings and no rules appealed to many so john sloan dod nr became keeper of the list issuing dod numbers to anyone who wanted one to date there have been almost memberships issued to people all over the united states and canada as well as australia new zealand the united kingdom france germany norway and finland keeper of the list sloan eventually designed a club patch the initial run of patches sold out immediately the profits from this went to the american motorcycle heritage foundation another amhf fund raiser selling denizens of doom pins to members was started by arnie skurow a few months later again the project was successful and the profits were donated to the foundation so far the denizens have contributed over to the ama museum a plaque in the name of the denizens of doom now hangs in the motorcycle heritage museum as often as possible the dod ers crawl out from behind their crts and go riding together it turns out that the two largest concentrations of dod ers are centered near denver boulder colorado and in california s silicon valley consequently two major events are the annual assault on rollins pass in colorado and the northern versus southern california joust the ride and feed is a bike trip over rollins pass followed by a big barbecue dinner the concept for the joust is to have riders from northern california ride south riders from southern california to ride north meeting at a predesignated site somewhere in the middle an additional plan for is to hold an official denizens of doom homecoming in conjunction with the ama heritage homecoming in columbus ohio in july though it s a safe bet the the denizens of doom and their collective communications hub rec motorcycles will not replace the more traditional motorcycle organizations for those who prowl the electronic pathways in search of two wheeled camaraderie it s a great way for kindred spirits to get together long may they flame live to flame flame to live centerbar this official motto of the denizens of doom refers to the ease with which you can gratuitously insult someone electronically when you would not do anything like that face to face these insults are known as flames issuing them is called flaming flames often start when a member disagrees with something another member has posted over the network a typical sophisticated intelligent form of calm reasoned rebuttal would be something like what an incredibly stupid statement you spandex clad poseur this will guarantee that five other people will reply in defense of the original poster describing just what they think of you your riding ability and your cat the denizens of doom the saga unfolds by john sloan dod periodically the question what is dod is raised this is one of those questions in the same class as why is the sky blue if there is a god why is there so much suffering in the world and why do women inevitably tell you that you re such a nice guy just before they dump you the kinds of questions steeped in mysticism tradition and philosophy questions that have inspired research and discussion by philosophers in locker rooms motorcycle service bays and in the halls of academe for generations a long long time ago in computer time where anything over a few minutes is an eternity and the halting problem really is a problem on a computer far far away on the net topologically speaking two machines in the same room in atlanta might route mail to one another via a system in chicago a chap who wished to remain anonymous but who was eventually assigned the dod membership wrote a satire of the various personalities and flame wars of rec motorcycles and signed it the denizen of doom not wishing to identify himself he asked that stalwart individual who would in the fullness of time become dod to post it for him dod not really giving a whit about what other people thought and generally being a right thinking individual did so flaming and other amusements followed he who would become the holder of dod membership thought this was the funniest thing he d seen in a while being the sort that is pretty easily amused so he claimed membership in the denizens of doom motorcycle club and started signing his postings with his membership number perhaps readers of rec motorcycles were struck with the vision of a motorcycle club with no dues no rules no restrictions as to brand or make or model or national origin of motorcycle a club organized electronically it may well be that readers were yearning to become a part of something that would provide them with a greater identity a gestalt personality something in which the whole was greater than the sum of its parts it could also be that we re all computer nerds who wear black socks and sneakers and pocket protectors who just happen to also love taking risks on machines with awesome power to weight ratios social outcasts who saw a clique that would finally be open minded enough to accept us as members in a clear case of self fulfilling prophesy the denizens of doom motorcycle club was born a club in which the majority of members have never met one another face to face and perhaps like it that way yet feel that they know one another pretty well or well enough given some of the electronic personalities in the newsgroup a club organized and run in the loosest sense of the word by volunteers through the network via electronic news and mail with a membership mailing list often used to organize group rides amongst members who live in the same region a motto a logo a series of photo albums circulating around the country organized by dod club patches organized by and even an mtv style music video produced by and distributed on vhs by where will it end who knows will the dod start sanctioning races placing limits on the memory and clock rate of the on board engine management computers will the dod organize poker runs where each participant collects a hand of hardware and software reference cards will the dod have a rally in which the attendees demand a terminal room and at least a sized unix system only time will tell the dod has no dues no rules and no requirements other than net access and a love for motorcycles to become a member one need only ask although we will admit that who you must ask is one of the few really good club secrets new members will receive via email a membership number and the latest copy of the membership list which includes name state and email address the denizens of doom motorcycle club will live forever or at least until next year when we may decided to change the name live to flame flame to live the dod daemon as seen on the patches pins etc by chuck rogers car druhi att com dod dod x x x x x x l f i l v a e m e t o t o f l l a vvvvv i m v e e x x x x x rec motorcycles x usenet the dod by the denizen of doom dod welcome one and all to the flamingest most wonderfullest newsgroup of all time wreck mudder disciples or is it reak mudder disciples the names have been changes to protect the guilty riders and innocent the bikes alike if you think you recognize a contorted version of your name you don t it s just your guilt complex working against you read em and weep we tune in on a conversation between some of our heros terrible barbarian is extolling the virtues of his hopalonga puff a cane to reverend muck mudgers and stompin fueling injection terrible this hopalonga is the greatest beats bmws dead muck i don t mean to preach terrible but lighten up on the bmw crowd eh i mean like i like riding my yuka yuka fudgeo jammer but what the heck stompin no way the bmw is it complete that s all man terrible nahhhh you re sounding like heritick ratatnack hey at least he is selling his bmw and uses a hopalonga intercorruptor not as good as a puff a cane should have been called a woosh a stream stompin you mean wee stream terrible waddya going to do call in reinforcements stompin yehh man here comes arlow scarecrow and high tech let s see what they say eh muck now men let s try to be civil about this high tech hi i m a and the bmw is the greatest arlow other than my b t i love my bmw terrible b t arlow burley thumpison the greatest all american ride you can own muck ahhh look you re making terrible gag terrible what does bmw stand for anyway muck arlow high beats me wilhelm terrible actually my name is terrible hmmm i don t know either muck say here comes chunky bear chunky hey hey hey smarter than your average bear terrible hey didn t you drop your bmw chunky all right eh a little booboo but i left him behind i mean even villy ogle flamed me for that muck it s okay we all makes mistakes out of the blue the west coasters arrive led by tread orange with dill snorkssy heritick ratatnack buck garnish snob rasseller and the perenial favorite hooter boobin brush heritick heya terrible how s yer front to back bias terrible not bad sold yer bmw heritick nahhh hooter hoot hoot buck nice tree hooter how d ya get up there hooter carbujectors from hell muck what s a carbujector hooter well it ain t made of alumican made by tilloslert muck ahh come on down we aren t going to flame ya honest dill well where do we race snob you know chunky we know about about your drop and well don t ride muck no no quiet tread bmw s are the greatest in my supreme level headed opinion they even have luggage made by sourkraut high my too terrible heritick dill buck nahhhhh stompin tread high chunky snob yesss yessssss before this issue could be resolved the hopalonga crew called up more cohorts from the local area including polyanna stirrup and the infamous booster robiksen on his cavortin polyanna well men the real bikers use stirrups on their bikes like i use on my hopalonga evening bird special helpful for getting it up on the ole ventral stand terrible hopalonga s are great like polyanna says and yuka yuka s and sumarikis and kersnapis are good too booster i hate cavortin all we know we know booster i love cavortin all we know we know muck well what about mucho guzlers and lepurras snob tread nawwwwww muck what about a tridump terrible isn t that a chewing gum muck auggggg waddda about a pluck a kity heritick heyya muck you tryin to call up the demon rider himself muck no no there is more to mudder disciples than arguing about make two more riders zoom in in the form of pill turret and phalanx lifter pill out with dorsal stands and ventral stands forever phalanx hey i don t know about that and now even more west coasters pour in road o noblin hopalonga s are the greatest maulled beerstein may you sit on a bikejector suddenly more people arrived from the great dark nurth kite lanolin hey bmw s are great men robo nickie i prefer motorcycle to robot transformers personally more riders from the west coast come into the discussion aviator sourgas get a burley thumpison with a belted rigged frame guess gasket go with a bmw or burley thumpison with a roar and a screech the latest mudder disciple thundered in it was none other that clean bikata on her hopalonga cabammerxorn clean like look hopalonga are it but only cabammerxorns muck why clean well like it s gotta be a banger or nothin muck but i only have a banger clean no good chunky sob some of us only have bangers clean inferior stompin hey look here s proof bmw s are better the bimmer boys burst into song singing beemer babe beemer babe give me a thrill road terrible polyanna maulled dill etc wadddoes bmw stand for heritick stompin snob chunky tread kite high arlow beat s me wilhem road terrible polyanna maulled dill etc oh don t you mean bmw and so the ensuing argument goes until the skies clouded over and the thunder roared and the greatest mudder disciple g m d of them all boomed out g m d enough of your bickering you are doomed to riding bigot suction powered mini trikes for your childish actions all no no no puhlease does this mean that all of the wreck mudder disciples will be riding mini trikes are our arguing heros doomed tune in next week for the next gut wretching episode of the yearning and riderless with its ever increasing cast of characters where all technical problems will be flamed over until well done next week s episode will answer the question of to helmet or not to helmet will be aired this is heady material and viewer discretion is advised script for the denizens of doom anthem video by jonathan e quist dod scene a sterile engineering office a lone figure whom we ll call chuck stands by a printer output bin wearing a white cdc lab coat with mechanical pencils in a pocket protector editor s note for some reason a great deal of amusement was had at the first annual dod uni coastal ironhorse ride joust by denizens referring to each other as chuck i guess you had to be there i wasn t chuck i didn t want to be a software systems analyst cow towing to the whims of a machine and saying yessir nosir may i have another sir my mother made me do it i wanted to live a man s life music slowly builds in background riding nortons and triumphs through the highest mountain passes and the deepest valleys living the life of a motorcyclist doing donuts and evading the police terrorizing old ladies and raping small children eating small dogs for tea and large dogs for dinner in short i want to be a denizen chuck rips off his lab coat revealing black leather jacket with fringe boots and cap scene simultaneously changes to the top of an obviously assaulted rollins pass a small throng of hell s angels sit on their harleys in the near background gunning their engines showering lookers on with nails as they turn donuts and leaking oil on the tarmac chuck is standing in front of a heavily chromed fat boy chuck sings to the tune of the lumberjack song i m a denizen and i m okay i flame all night and i ride all day hell s angels echo chorus surprisingly heavy on tenors he s a denizen and he s okay he flames all night and he rides all day i ride my bike i eat my lunch i go to the lavat ry on wednesdays i ride skyline running children down with glee chorus he rides his bike he eats his lunch he goes to the lavat ry on wednesdays he rides skyline running children down with glee chorus refrain cause he s a denizen i ride real fast my name is chuck it somehow seems to fit i over rate the worst bad f ck but like a real good sh t oh i m a denizen and i m okay i flame all night and i ride all day chorus refrain oh he s a denizen i wear high heels and bright pink shorts full leathers and a bra i wish i rode a harley just like my dear mama chorus refrain why you have to be killed well the first thing you have to understand just in case you managed to read this far and still not figure it out is that the dod started as a joke and in the words of one denizen it intends to remain one sometime in the far distant past a hapless newbie asked what does dod stand for it s not the department of defense is it naturally a denizen who had watched the movie top gun a few times too many rose to the occasion and replied that s classified we could tell you but then we d have to kill you and the rest is history a variation on the security theme is to supply disinformation about what dod stands for notable contributions and contributers where known include daughters of democracy dod doers of donuts dancers of despair dod debasers of daughters dickweeds of denver driveway of death debauchers of donuts dumpers of dirtbikes note that this is not a comprehensive list as variations appear to be limited only by the contents of one s imagination or dictionary file the rec moto photo archive first a bit of history this all started with ilana stern and chuck rogers organizing a rec motorcycles photo album many copies were made and several sets were sent on tours around the world only to vanish in unknown locations then bruce tanner decided that it would be appropriate for an electronic medium to have an electronic photo album bruce has not only provided the disk space and ftp e mail access but he has taken the time to scan most of the photos that are available from the archive not only can you see what all these folks look like you can also gawk at their motorcycles a few non photo files are available from the server too they include the dod membership list the dod yellow pages the general rec motorcycles faq and this faq posting here are a couple of excerpts from from messages bruce posted about how to use the archive via ftp cerritos edu via e mail the address is server cerritos edu the commands are given in the body of the message the current commands are dir and send given one per line the arguments to the commands are vms style file specifications for rec moto photo the file spec is dod file for example you can send dir dod send dod bruce tanner gif send dod dodframe ps and you ll get back mail messages a directory listing uuencoded parts of bruce tanner gif and the dodframe ps file in ascii oh wildcards are allowed but a maximum of mail messages rounded up to the next whole file are send a send dod gif would send files of k each not a good idea bruce tanner x tanner cerritos edu cerritos college norwalk ca cerritos tanner a couple of comments bruce has put quite a bit of effort into this so why not drop him a note if you find the rec moto photo archive useful second since bruce has provided the server as a favor it would be kind of you to access it after normal working hours california time patches what patches you may have heard mention of various dod trinkets such as patches pins and your reaction was probably i want or that s sick or perhaps that s sick i want well there s some good news and some bad news the good news is that there s been an amazing variety of dod labeled widgets created the bad news is that there isn t anywhere you can buy any of them this isn t because of any exclusivity attempt but simply because there is no dod store that keeps a stock all of the creations have been done by individual denizens out of their own pockets the typical procedure is someone says i m thinking of having a dod frammitz made they ll cost xx xx with xx xx going to the ama museum anyone want one then orders are taken and a batch of frammitzes large enough to cover the pre paid orders is produced and quickly consumed so if you want a dod doodad act quickly the next time somebody decides to do one or produce one yourself if you see a void that needs filling after all this is anarchy in action here s a possibly incomplete list of known dod merchandise and perpetrators patches dod pins dod stickers dod motorcycle license plate frames dod t shirts dod polo shirts dod zippo lighters dod ltf ftl belt buckles dod and patches dod a second batch was done and rapidly consumed by popular demand all profits have been donated to the american motorcyclist association motorcycle heritage museum as of june over dollars has been contributed to the museum fund by the dod if you visit the museum you ll see a large plaque on the founders wall in the name of denizens of doom usenet the world complete with a dod pin here s a letter from the ama to the dod regarding our contributions newsgroups rec motorcycles from arnie skurow arnie magnus acs ohio state edu subject a letter from the motorcycle heritage museum date mon apr gmt i received the following letter from jim rogers director of the museum the other day dear arnie and all members of the denizens of doom congratulations and expressions of gratitude are in order for you and the denizens of doom with your recent donation the total amount donated is now on behalf of the amhf please extend my heartfeld gratitude to all the membership of the denizens the club s new plaque is presently being prepared of course everyone is invited to come to the museum to see the plaque that will be installed in our founders foyer by the way i will personally mount a denizens club pin on the plaque again thank you for all your support which means so much to the foundation the museum and the fulfillment of its goals sincerely jim rogers d o d director p s please post on your computer bulletin board as you all know even though the letter was addressed to me personally it was meant for all of you who purchased dod goodies that made this amount possible arnie the rules regulations bylaws of the denizens of doom motorcycle club from time to time there is some mention discussion or flame about the rules of the dod in order to fan the flames here is the complete text of the rules governing the dod rule there are no rules rule go ride other rec motorcycles information resources there are several general rec motorcycles resources that may or may not have anything to do with the dod most are posted on a regular basis but they can also be obtained from the cerritos ftp e mail server see the info on the photo archive above a general rec motorcycles faq is maintained by dave williams cerritos filenames are faqn txt where n is currently the dod yellow pages a listing of motorcycle industry vendor phone numbers addresses is maintained by bob pakser cerritos filename is yellow pages vnn where n is the rev number the list of the dod membership is maintained by the keeper of the list cerritos filename is dod list this witdod faq surprise surprise is maintained by yours truly cerritos filename is dod faq txt additions corrections etc for any of the above should be aimed at the keepers of the respective texts loki jorgenson loki physics mcgill ca has provided an archive site for motorcycle and accessory reviews here s an excerpt from his periodic announcement the rec motorcycles reviews archives and world famous llama emporium contains a veritable plethora tm of bike and accessories reviews written by rec moto readers based on their own experiences these invaluable gems of opinion highly valued for their potential to reduce noise on the list can be accessed via anonymous ftp email server or by personal request anonymous ftp ftp physics mcgill ca under ftp pub dod email archive server rm reviews ftp physics mcgill ca review submissions questions rm reviews physics mcgill ca note there is a difference in the addresses for review submission and using the email archive server ie an ftp to get started with the email server send an email message with a line containing only send help note if your return address appears like domain subdomain host username in your mail header include a line like or something similar path username host subdomain domain if you are interested in submitting a review of a bike that you already own ed please do there is a template of the format that the reviews are kept in more or less available at the archive site for those who have internet access but are unsure of how anonymous ftp works an example script is available on request reviews of any motorcycle related accessory or widget are welcome too updated stats rec motorcycles rides info some of the info cited above in various places tends to be a moving target rather than trying to catch every occurence i m just sticking the latest info down here estimated rec motorcycles readership k news groups approximate dod membership kotl dod contributions to the american motorcyclist association motorcycle heritage museum over arnie organized rides summer saw more organized rides with the joust in its third year and the ride feed going strong but without the rollins pass trip due to the collapse of a tunnel the east coast denizens got together for the right coast ride rcr with bikers from as far north as nh and as far south as fl meeting in the blueridge mountains of north carolina the pacific northwest crew organized the first great pacific northwest dryside gather gpndg another successful excuse for riding motorcycles and seeing the faces behind the names we all have come to know so well thanks to ed green for the above addition also worth mentioning are the first rec moto dirt ride held in the moab canyonlands area of southern utah riders from states showed up riding everything from monster bmws to itty bitty xrs to almost legal strokes and though it s not an official as if anything could be official with this crowd rec moto event the vintage motorcycle races in steamboat springs colorado always provides a good excuse for netters to gather there s also been the occasional labor day gather in utah european denizens have staged some gathers too your ad here reasonable rates blaine gardner evans sutherland arapeen drive slc utah blgardne javelin sim es com bix blaine g bix com fj half of my vehicles and all of my computers are kickstarted dod blaine gardner evans sutherland arapeen drive slc utah blgardne javelin sim es com bix blaine g bix com fj half of my vehicles and all of my computers are kickstarted dod
rec.motorcycles	re oops oh no wm l ranck ranck joesbar cc vt edu wrote i hate to admit this and i m still mentally kicking myself for it i rode the brand new k rt home last friday night miles in rain and darkness no problems got it home and put it on the center stand the next day i pushed it off the center stand in preparation for going over to a friend s house to pose you guessed it it got away from me and landed on its right side scratched the lower fairing cracked the right mirror and cracked the upper fairing damn am i stupid it s going to cost me to get the local body shop to fix it and that is after i take the fairing off for them still that s probably cheaper than the mirror alone if i bought a replacement from bmw you got off cheap my sister s ex boyfriend was such an incessant pain in the ass about wanting to ride my bikes no way jose that i finally took him to lindner s bmw in new canaan ct last fall where i had seen a nice used k rs in perfect condition after telling everyone in the shop his norton war stories from fifteen years ago signing the liability waiver and getting his pre flight off he went well not quite i walked out of a pizza shop up the street feeling good about myself made my sister s boyfriend happy and got the persistent wanker off my ass for good heard the horrendous racket of an engine tortured to its red line and then a crash i saw people running towards the obvious source of the disturbance jeff laying under the bmw with the rear wheel spinning wildly and someone groping for the kill switch i stared in disbelief with a slice hanging out of my mouth as matty the shop manager slid up beside me and asked friend of yours steve shit matty it could have been worse that could been my flhs jeff hadn t made it inches witnesses said he lifted his feet before letting out the clutch and gravity got the best of him jeff claimed that the clutch didn t engage matty was quick while jeff was still stuttering in embarrassed shock he managed to snatch jeff s credit card for a quick imprint and signature twenty minutes later when jeff s color had paled to a flush matty presented him with an estimate of for a busted right mirror and a hairline crack in the fairing that was for fixing the crack and masking the damaged area not a new fairing or he could buy the bike i m not sure what happened later as my sister split up with jeff shortly afterwards to hook up with another piece of work except that matty told me he ran the charge through in december and that it went uncontested stephen manes manes magpie linknet com manes and associates new york ny usa o o
rec.motorcycles	re a miracle in california in article ppvof a seven up east sun com egreen east sun com writes bikers wave to bikers the world over whether or not harley riders wave to other bikers is one of our favorite flame wars i am happy to say that some harley riders in our area are better than most that are flamed about here i riding a lowly sport bike no less and my girlfriend were the recipient of no less than twenty waves from a group of at least twenty five harley riders i was leading a group of about four sport bikes at the time fj cbr rr vfr i initiated some of the waves but not all it was a perfect day and friendly riders despite some brand differences made it all the better randy davis email randy megatek com zx pilot uunet ucsd megatek randy dod
rec.motorcycles	re more dod paraphernalia in article pppnrinnitg cronkite central sun com doc webrider central sun com steve bunis wrote how about a decal of thicker vinyl how about a geeky temporary tatoo i mean why should the rubs be exempt from a little razzing john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	re a miracle in california re waving i must say that the courtesy of a nod or a wave as i meet other bikers while riding does a lot of good things to my mood while riding is a lot of fun by itself there s something really special about having someone say to you hey it s a great day for a ride isn t it wonderful that we can spend some time on the road on days like this with a gesture was sunny today for the first time in a week took my bike out for a spin down to the local salvage yard bike shop ran into about other people who were down there for similar reasons there s this great stretch of road on the way down there no side streets lotsa leaning bends went on an impromptu coffee and bullshit run down to puyallup with a batch of people who i didn t know but who were my kinda people nonetheless as a fellow commented to me while i was admiring his bike hey it s not what you ride it s that you ride as long as it has wheels and an engine it s the same thing maven eskimo com internet maven mavenry altcit eskimo com usenet the maven the mavenry alternet
rec.motorcycles	re drinking and riding in article c wkbp b w eskimo com maven eskimo com norman hamer writes what is a general rule of thumb for sobriety and cycling couple hours after you feel sober what or should i just work with if i drink tonight i don t ride until tomorrow hr drink for the first drinks hours drink for the next drinks hours drink for the rest these are fairly cautious guidelines and will work even if you happen to have a low tolerance or body mass i think the cops and don t you dare drink drive tm commercials will usually say hr drink in general but after about drinks and hrs you could very well be over the legal limit watch yourself mike mike muise mjmuise watstar uwaterloo ca no quotes no jokes electrical engineering university of waterloo no disclaimer no fear
rec.motorcycles	re insect impacts in article rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes how do the helmetless do it um the same way people do it on horseback not as fast and they would probably enjoy eating bugs anyway every bit as fast as a dirtbike in the right terrain and we eat flies thank you jeeps you re supposed to keep the windscreen up then why does it go down snow skis no bugs and most poeple who go fast wear goggles so do most helmetless motorcyclists the question still stands how do cruiser riders with no or negligible helmets stand being on the highway at mph on buggy summer evenings helmetless goggleless ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re a miracle in california in article cv dtx juts ccc amdahl com bws duts ccc amdahl com brian w simmons writes now maybe this isn t a big deal to some of you but it is to me i was raised in the south and part of my cultural heritage is waving at passersby i waved from the side of the road at passing cars when i drove i waved or nodded or at least raised an index finger from the steering wheel people waved at me as i drove by i was raised in the south and i can attest that this is true why on one particularly hot day as i was walking along the road some good ole boys in a truck tossed me a cold beer of course they were going mph at the time p s to prove this wasn t a fluke it happened to me again when i was out riding on wednesday an unsolicited wave wow bikers wave to bikers the world over whether or not harley riders wave to other bikers is one of our favorite flame wars ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re cultural enquiries in article c ugg as cmptrc lonestar org irwin cmptrc lonestar org irwin arnstein writes in article phuse u sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes in article aber ac uk azw aber ac uk andy woodward writes two questions that fascinate me check you local blue light special for a sale on lives why are rednecks called rednecks the origin of the slang is probably a reference to a sunburned neck often obtained while performing honest work outdoors the neck is specified to distinguish these people whose shirt protected chest and back are pale from the elitist wealthy who in their idiotic quest for darker skin pigmentation as a badge of leisure time overdo it and get full body sunburns more like those who use their backs instead of their minds to make their living who are usually ignorant and intolerant of anything outside of their group or level of understanding tuba irwin i honk therefore i am computrac richardson tx irwin cmptrc lonestar org dod r that sounds like an awfully closed minded intolerant attitude i m not a redneck but try a walk in their shoes first stereotypes are usually of very limited value i ve seen as many ignorant self righteous open minded new age lovers of the great planet earth as i have ignorant red necks i don t see a correlation i don t believe that the redneck culture if you can call it that is necessarily inferior or superior to any other i gotta have a beer i m making too much sense next thing you know i ll be preaching tolerance and i m a conservative jack waters ii dod i don t fear the thief in the night its the one that comes in the afternoon when i m still asleep that i worry about
rec.motorcycles	carrying crutches was re living in a previous article pooder rchland vnet ibm com don fearn says when i broke my right leg in two places not a motorcycle accident a car accident who woulda thunk it i put my crutches on gretchen s rear rack i m getting the metal rod pulled out on friday and going back on the crutches for six weeks i think crutches on the handlebars sound more aesthetically pleasing how did you attach them when i got my knee rebuilt i got back on the street bike asap i put the crutches on the rack and the passenger seat and they hung out back a long way just make sure they re tied down tight in front and no problemo go fast take chances mike s
rec.motorcycles	re kawi zephyr was re vision vs gpz in article apr pro haven cts com shadow pro haven cts com writes in apr organpipe uug arizona edu asphaug lpl arizona edu erik asphaug x writes by the way the short lived zephyr is essentially a gpz why was the zephyr discontinued i heard something about a problem with the name but i never did hear anything certain i don t think the sold very well most north americans who ride a standard rather than a sport bike usually want something bigger people walk into the dealership look at the and the and say i might as well spring the extra bucks for the bigger engine bruce clarke b c environment e mail bclarke galaxy gov bc ca
rec.motorcycles	re ed must be a daemon child in a previous article svoboda rtsg mot com david svoboda says in article apr linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes wait a minute here ed is noemi and satan wow and he seemed like such a nice boy at rcr i too and noemi makes me think of cuddle not kotl you talking bout the same noemi i know she makes me think of big bore hand guns and extreme weirdness this babe rode a csr across the desert and a borrowed xl on the death ride don t fuck with her man your making a big mistake go fast take chances mike s
rec.motorcycles	re identify this bike for me in article apr ucsu colorado edu coburnn spot colorado edu nicholas s coburn writes first i thought it was an rc a hawk modified by two brothers racing but i did not think that they made this huge tank for it additionally as someone who was told quite firmly by honda sales service weenies that there is no larger tank available for the hawk i have a hawk with the puny gal tank i d be very interested to know if there is any decent aftermarket solution i d love to have at least a gal tank curtis jackson cjackson mv us adobe com hawk gt maxim dod kotb black lab mix studley doright collie golden george there is no justification for taking away individuals freedom in the guise of public safety thomas jefferson
rec.motorcycles	re cultural enquiries in article stafford stafford winona msus edu stafford vax winona msus edu john stafford writes in article mar aber ac uk azw aber ac uk andy woodward wrote two questions that fascinate me you are easily fascinated why are rednecks called rednecks why are you called a welch ok it s because they are often south or southeastern farmers who s necks are permanently damaged from sunburn the sun you know what that is it never sets on the british empire and never shines in wales this is a despicable lie it was sunny on rd july from am to am i made a note of it diaries are never wrong why do they ride harleys they don t they drive in pick up trucks and shoot bikers please enlighten me when i visited last the only answers i got were incoherent splutterings you deserve more john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply do you by any chance ride a harley just a feeling how is your neck calamine lotion is good i m told i am getting bored with winding up americans its like bombing fish in a barrel haaaaaaaaaaave a niiiiiiiiiiiiiiice daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay andy
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post in article c zkcl fgc ux cso uiuc edu eric ux cso uiuc edu cbr rr writes would someone please post the countersteering faq i am having this awful time debating with someone on why i push the right handle of my motorcycle foward when i am turning left and i can t explain well at least why this happens please help post the faq i need to convert him eric hmm if i did this would i be able to take the outriggers off
rec.motorcycles	re dr demento in article mar cs brown edu jdk cs brown edu jennet kirschenbaum writes i haven t heard dr demento in years does anyone know if it plays on any stations around prov ri such as wbcn i d love to pay for shipping and recording of the show too the best boring old farts prefer the breeze fm salt lake city wonderfully catatonic i wanted to take the whole station back with me in my flight bag especially the girlie with the sexy voice who did the morning show
rec.motorcycles	re pink tools was re what is it with girlfriends and motorcycles i only just prevented myself from diving in on this one
rec.motorcycles	re cultural enquiries in article pcl i e i bigboote wpi edu ravi vanilla wpi edu ravi narayan writes in a previous article groh nu cs fsu edu said azw aber ac uk andy woodward writes why do they ride harleys cause we can you sure are lucky i am told that there are very few people out there who can actually get their harley to ride the name tod johnson jumps to the indiscreet mind laz whats it you used to ride sig n a piece of mail with a fool at one ravi narayan cs wpi end and flames at the other c suzukigs e phaedra hi ravi if you need a harley we have lots to spare here all the yuppies bought the best a couple of years ago to pose at the s wine bar they rode a mile and walked the rest called a taxi home and went back to the porsche so there s are loads going cheap with about miles on the clock takes a while to coast to a halt cheers andy p s you get a better class of people on gs s anyway
rec.motorcycles	re drinking and riding in article apr galaxy gov bc ca bclarke galaxy gov bc ca writes in article c wkbp b w eskimo com maven eskimo com norman hamer writes drinking riding what is a general rule of thumb for sobriety and cycling couple hours after you feel sober what or should i just work with if i drink tonight i don t ride until tomorrow even a half a beer will increase your confidence while slugging your reactions and judgement not much maybe but its hard enough to stay alive out there for any length of time without stacking the odds i ll not ride after any
rec.motorcycles	re living in article apr unbvm csd unb ca c a unb ca c a writes in article apr eos arc nasa gov phil eos arc nasa gov phil stone writes thanks for the compliments allan but i think you sidestepped my point there i didn t say i didn t take any chances sheesh getting out of bed in the morning is risky i sprained my ankle damn right i was late for a climbing meet one morning so i got out of bed without bothering that my right foot was still asleep it reminded me by folding underneath with a crunching of metatarsals lucky the brake s on the right but i got funny looks riding thru london with one leg held aloft climbing wasnt a problem the best splint in the world is a tight climbing shoe
rec.motorcycles	re protective gear in article apr galaxy gov bc ca bclarke galaxy gov bc ca writes in article c wkfs bc eskimo com maven eskimo com norman hamer writes what protective gear is the most important i ve got a good helmet shoei rf and a good thick jacket leather gold and a pair of really cheap leather gloves what should my next purchase be better gloves boots leather pants what if you can remember to tuck properly the bits that are going to take most punishment with the gear you have will probably be your feet then hips and knees get boots then trousers the gloves come last as long as you ve the self control to pull your arms in when you tuck if not get good gloves first hands are very easily wrecked if you put one down to steady your fall at mph the other bits heal easier once you are fully covered you no longer tuck just lie back and enjoy the ride best of all take a mean of all the contradictory answers you get
rec.motorcycles	new dod listing membership is at there is a new dod listing to get a copy use one of these commands finger motohead cs colorado edu or mail motohead cs colorado edu if you send mail make sure your from line is correct ie man vacation i will not try at all to fix mail problems unless they are mine and i may just publicly tell the world what a bad mailer you have i do scan the mail to find bounces but i will not waste my time answering your questions or requests for those of you that want to update your entry or get a contact the kotl only the kotl can make changes so stop bothering me with inane mail i will not tell what dod is ask rec motorcycles i do not give out the s laszlo nemeth laszlo cs colorado edu hey my tool works yeah you can quote me on that from elef sun com flashbacks free drugs dod uid
rec.motorcycles	re round two in article serval net wsu edu bill wsuaix csc wsu edu william e johns s writes if good sam got bricks delivered first class postage to their door at their expense i bet they would change their policies about mailing lists or about who can use their facilities quickly and if the lord god almighty parted the sky and make a personal appearance at their board of directors meeting they would also change their policies the odds are about equal i am curious as to how many bricks i will have to send before this situatiion is cleared up to my satisfaction i suspect about we shall see you ll be extremely lucky if you ever get one through ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re another question about synthetic engi in article apr porthos cc bellcore com fist iscp bellcore com richard pierson writes two years ago he went to work for conrail as a mechanic on the emd and ge power units train engines they never ever change the oil just the filters i remember seeing an artical on large engine oil requirements and one of the ways of prolonging the life of the oil was to run through a heated un presurized chamber to allow water and volitiles to boil off this made such long term usage of oil practical isn t the discovery channel great curt howland ace dod eff howland nsipo nasa gov v sabre meddle not in the afairs of wizards for it makes them soggy and hard to re light
rec.motorcycles	identify this bike for me ok i saw a bike today and i want to know what it is lets begin by saying that its whole rear end was definately hawk additionally it had a cbr rr style tank full fairing and only a tach now at first i thought it was an rc a hawk modified by two brothers racing but i did not think that they made this huge tank for it additionally the gauges were certainly not from a hawk they looked much more like rr gauges overall the bike looked like a rr except for the rear single sided swingarm and wheel there were straight from the hawk so what did i see ps for any of you boulder doders i saw it parked at the engineering center today it is white with light green stripes nick coburn dod ama cbr cbr coburnn spot colorado edu
rec.motorcycles	re ed must be a daemon child in article apr linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes wait a minute here ed is noemi and satan wow and he seemed like such a nice boy at rcr i too and noemi makes me think of cuddle not kotl dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com we re bad t the bone concours mmmmmmmmmm bad t the bone rz ring ding woops universally feared ama dod cog chicago denizen warcry
rec.motorcycles	re speeding ticket from chp paraphrase of initial post can i fight a speeding ticket in court my reply fight your ticket california edition by david brown st ed berkeley ca nolo press the second edition is out but not in ucb s library good luck let us know how it goes abd
rec.motorcycles	for sale h h brand new top end chambers clean black paul please do not contact this email address contact the seller cheers dave
rec.motorcycles	re what is it with cats and dogs in article gate gpd b w w ryang pgh pa us ryang ryang pgh pa us robert h yang writes hi sorry just feeling silly rob no need to appologise as a matter of fact this reminds me to bring up something i have found consistant with dogs most of the time they do not like having me and my bike anywhere near them and will chase as if to bite and kill an instructor once said it was because the sound from a bike was painfull to their ears as silly as this seams no other options have arrizen net wisdom curt howland ace dod eff howland nsipo nasa gov v sabre meddle not in the afairs of wizards for it makes them soggy and hard to re light
rec.motorcycles	re auction diana s bra in article apr adobe com cjackson adobe com curtis jackson writes next thing you know i ll see bikes with geeky stickers parked outside the local white wine quiche and fern bar hey i like quiche even if i did have to look at your note to spell it assumed correctly really you sniff tough guys are all the same mommy curtis is making fun of ferns again
rec.motorcycles	re drinking and riding in article c wkbp b w eskimo com maven eskimo com norman hamer writes what is a general rule of thumb for sobriety and cycling couple hours after you feel sober what or should i just work with if i drink tonight i don t ride until tomorrow i ll put in a vote for the latter a bike takes a lot of involvement and i for one do not want any accident to be my fault i remember one artical where the reviewer tried the radio on the bike not having had one on any of his he stated that the bike tended to go faster when the music was good i agree having felt like this my self and this was not a physical imparement like drinking just the emotional lift from music first rule of ecology there is never only one side effect ride well curt howland ace dod eff howland nsipo nasa gov v sabre meddle not in the afairs of wizards for it makes them soggy and hard to re light
rec.motorcycles	re a miracle in california waving at fellow bikers stuff deleted when i first started riding street bikes i was told it was common to recieve give a wave to a fellow biker what astounded me on moving to the left coast from the right coast was to actually get waves from harley riders no really i remember the first time as a truely memorable event it might have something to do with the no i refuse to bring that up again thanks evo for being a harley rider that waves first curt howland ace dod eff howland nsipo nasa gov v sabre meddle not in the afairs of wizards for it makes them soggy and hard to re light
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post in article c zkcl fgc ux cso uiuc edu eric ux cso uiuc edu cbr rr writes would someone please post the countersteering faq eric like there s a faq for this curt howland ace dod eff howland nsipo nasa gov v sabre meddle not in the afairs of wizards for it makes them soggy and hard to re light
rec.motorcycles	re ed must be a daemon child ed s heading out on the highway did he finally buy a bike or is he a passanger jeff andle dod kz ree a maine maine edu intermittentnet access arranged through bowdoin college please reply via e mail since a followup might expire before i see the net again
rec.motorcycles	re kawi zephyr was re vision vs gpz i don t know about the dinky little zephyr s but the now the zr looks alot like my z kz the one i drooled over at tri sports in topsham me was a looker yes mercury axed the zephyr name guess a lot of aging republicans wanted a zephyr and confused the mercury with the kawasaki oh well they re better off with the kawasaki anyways maybe it ll shake the stick out of their asses and make libertarians out of them as to the gpz zephyr the only gpz i ve seen had the ball buster gas tank profile not the smooth saddle to gas tank transition motorcyclist claims the zephyr zr is the modernized z kz from the seventies jeff andle dod kz ree a maine maine edu intermittentnet access arranged through bowdoin college please reply via e mail since a followup might expire before i see the net again
rec.motorcycles	re r m split was re insect impacts hpcc rec motorcycles cookson mbunix mitre org cookson pm apr all right people this inane bug wibbling is just getting to much i propose we split off a new group rec motorcycles nutrition to deal with the what to do with squashed bugs thread dean cookson dcookson mitre org dod ama the mitre corp burlington rd bedford ma kotnml kotb if i was worried about who saw me i d never get vfr f nekkid at all ed green dod bianchi limited what haven t you heard about cross posting leave it intact and simply ignore the basenotes and or responses which have zero interest for a being of your stature and discriminating taste yesterday while on lonoak rd a wasp hit my faceshield with just enough force to glue it between my eyes but not enough to kill it as the legs were frantically wiggling away and i found that rather shall we say distracting i flicked it off and wiped off the residue at the next gas stop in greenfield btw lonoak rd leads from into king city although we took metz from kc into greenfield graeme harrison hewlett packard co communications components division w trimble rd san jose ca gharriso hpcc corp hp com dod
rec.motorcycles	re tools tools tools in article c c cs cmu edu jfriedl cs cmu edu writes behanna phoenix syl nj nec com chris behanna writes while we re on the subject has anyone else noticed that the deep well in craftsman s sae deep well set is too small to fit a bolt or nut when i took the socket in for an exchange every one of the deep well sockets on the rack had the exact same problem not to imply that you didn t but since you didn t mention it did you measure the size of your test nut with callipers were all three cross lengths no more than i ve seen bolt heads and even a few nuts which got slightly thicker further down toward the basa sort of a trapizodial cross section that i did not do however the sample bolt i took to the store fit rather well in the following open end wrench box end wrench point normal socket i take that as meaning it s a bolt head but as several people have pointed out and as i m noting in the tool faq i m writing up in case anyone will want it a lifetime guarantee doesn t necessiarly mean better tools yup at a socket i want the thing to fit later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx pending delivery agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	re oops oh no jack rogers waters jrwaters eos ncsu edu wrote in article ppejb h vtserf cc vt edu ranck joesbar cc vt edu wm l ranck writes well at least i damaged my own bike if i had done it to someone else s property i d really feel like a jerk as it is i just feel stupid i don t mean to be a cynic but you may want to reconsider having the body work done right away the same type of thing may happen again wait till you get used to the bike etc well i waited a whole week to take the pastic bits off and take them to the body shop is that long enough bill ranck ranck joesbar cc vt edu
rec.motorcycles	re the quest for horndom in article apr research nj nec com behanna phoenix syl nj nec com chris behanna writes in article apr ncsu edu jrwaters eos ncsu edu jack rogers waters writes no laughing please i have a few questions first of all do i need a relay are there different kinds and if so what kind should i get both horns are volt i did some back of the eyelids calculations last night and i figure these puppies suck up about amps to work at maximum efficiency i e the cager might need a shovel to clean out his seat assumptions dba at one meter neglecting solid angle considerations and end effects and other acoustic niceties from the shape of the horn itself this is a power output of watts watts volts is approx amps yes get a relay yes tell me how you did it i want to do it on the zx later i ll post a summary after i get enough information i ll include tips like how to know when the monkey is pulling your leg shouldn t monkey s have to be bonded and insured before they work on bikes jack waters ii dod i don t fear the thief in the night its the one that comes in the afternoon when i m still asleep that i worry about
rec.motorcycles	re tools tools tools what is the flank drive everyones talking about
rec.motorcycles	re cultural enquiries in article phuse u sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes in article aber ac uk azw aber ac uk andy woodward writes two questions that fascinate me check you local blue light special for a sale on lives why are rednecks called rednecks the origin of the slang is probably a reference to a sunburned neck often obtained while performing honest work outdoors the neck is specified to distinguish these people whose shirt protected chest and back are pale from the elitist wealthy who in their idiotic quest for darker skin pigmentation as a badge of leisure time overdo it and get full body sunburns more like those who use their backs instead of their minds to make their living who are usually ignorant and intolerant of anything outside of their group or level of understanding tuba irwin i honk therefore i am computrac richardson tx irwin cmptrc lonestar org dod r
rec.motorcycles	re hats update patches too in article xhfg b w w fringe rain com dean fringe rain com dean woodward writes i ve got orders for about hats the expensive part not surprisingly is going to be having the patches made with a setup fee of or so dean there s an old engineering saying concerning inventions and wheels contact he s done several runs of patches and there is some patch making company out there with the artwork already set up and paid for ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re chain lube was re rm consensus on chain cleaning in article apr elektro cmhnet org charlie elektro cmhnet org charlie smith writes in article mar linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes anyone try the spray on chain wax that was reviewed in one of the moto rags last month yeah i sprayed it all over my rear drive shaft housing and it didn t seem to make it any quieter at all didn t you read the instructions first you re supposed to spray it in your ears so you won t be distracted by the chain noise of the other bikes around you that s why it s called chain wax chuck rogers car torreys att com car cbnewsj att com
rec.motorcycles	re bmw nostalgia question from a neophyte to go one step further you could write roland slabon pres of the vintage bmw motorcycle owners ltd at p o box exeter new hampshire and he ll send you copy of the bimonthly rag with info as to where to send your bucks if ya want to join as far as the price of s beemers it varies wildly from a low of around for an unrestored bike that still runs like an r or r to or so for a restored r s don t listen to that bull about the old bmw s not being good enough to ride in todays world hell i m riding my r single from mississippi to the bmw moa national rally in oshkosh wisconsin on the nd of july this year sincerely craig vechorik bmw moa ambassador bmw vintage bulletin tech editor dod real bmw s have round tail lights and roller cranks
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post in article apr unbvm csd unb ca c a unb ca c a writes in article c zkcl fgc ux cso uiuc edu eric ux cso uiuc edu cbr rr writes would someone please post the countersteering faq i am having this awful time debating with someone on why i push the right handle of my motorcycle foward when i am turning left and i can t explain well at least why this happens please help post the faq i need to convert him ummm if you push on the right handle of your bike while at speed and your bike turns left methinks your bike has a problem when i do it really methinks somethings wrong with your bike perhaps you meant pull pushing the right side of my handlebars will send me left it should really on my bike i turn right no wonder you need that faq if i had it i d send it i m sure others will take up the slack andy infante i sometimes wish that people would put a little more emphasis bmw r upon the observance of the law than they do upon it s dod enforcement calvin coolidge my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	re cultural enquiries in article apr aber ac uk azw aber ac uk andy woodward writes i am getting bored with winding up americans its like bombing fish in a barrel or little children at the market or is that the irish hard to keep all you not really english types straight michael robinson uucp ucbvax cogsci robinson internet robinson cogsci berkeley edu
rec.motorcycles	re another question about synthetic engi in article apr spectrum xerox com cooley xerox com writes in article news arc nasa gov howland noc arc nasa gov curt howland writes castrol syntec does not contain teflon it gets its greater lubrication by bonding to the metal surfaces of the engine thus making the metal ride on the polymer rather than having metal to metal contact i do not know if this also reduces the acid contact with the metal but it seems likely just becase something forms a resin does not mean that it s not teflon based the ptfe in slick is not teflon either but it s still teflon based teflon is a dupont owned tradename for ptfe slick does indeed use dupont teflon though some other brands of such stuff may use imported ptfe of another brand teflon being a trade name should always by capitalized dupont disclaims any benefits of ptfe in the oil supply of internal combustion engines btw dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com we re bad t the bone concours mmmmmmmmmm bad t the bone rz ring ding woops universally feared ama dod cog chicago denizen warcry
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes in article apr unbvm csd unb ca c a unb ca c a writes in article c zkcl fgc ux cso uiuc edu eric ux cso uiuc edu cbr rr writes would someone please post the countersteering faq i am having this awful ummm if you push on the right handle of your bike while at speed and your bike turns left methinks your bike has a problem when i do it really methinks somethings wrong with your bike perhaps you meant pull pushing the right side of my handlebars will send me left it should really on my bike i turn right no wonder you need that faq if i had it i d send it i m sure others will take up the slack andy infante i sometimes wish that people would put a little more emphasis oh lord this is where i came in obcountersteer for some reason i ve discovered that pulling on the wrong side of the handlebars rather than pushing on the other wrong side if you get my meaning provides a feeling of greater control for example rather than pushing on the right side to lean right to turn right hi lonny pulling on the left side at least until i get leaned over to the right feels more secure and less counter intuitive maybe i need psychological help obcountersteer v anyone else find it ironic that in the weekend and a night msf class they don t mention countersteering until after the first day of riding tommy mcguire who s going to hit his head on door frames the rest of the evening leaning into those tight turns mcguire cs utexas edu mcguire austin ibm com i will append an appropriate disclaimer to outgoing public information identifying it as personal and as independent of ibm
rec.motorcycles	re living in article c rz j q odin corp sgi com amc crash wpd sgi com allan mcnaughton writes in article mar eos arc nasa gov phil eos arc nasa gov phil stone writes alan nothing personal but i object to the we all in that statement i was on many of those rides that alan is describing pushing the envelope does not necessarily equal taking insane chances moreover if two riders are riding together at the same speed one might be riding well beyond his abilities and the other may have a safety margin left oh come on phil you re an excellent rider but you still take plenty of chances don t tell me that it s just your skill that keeps you from getting wacked there s a lot of luck thrown in there too you re a very good rider and a very lucky one too hope your luck holds allan i know the circumstances of several of your falls on the ride when you fell while i was next behind you you made an error of judgement by riding too fast when you knew the road was damp and you reacted badly when you were surprised by an oncoming car that crash was due to factors that were subject to your control i won t deny that there s a combination of luck and skill involved for each of us but it seems that you re blaming bad luck for more of your own pain than is warranted chuck karish karish mindcraft com x karish pangea stanford edu
rec.motorcycles	re recommended bike for a tall beginner in article sdcc ucsd edu jtozer sdcc ucsd edu john tozer writes i am looking for advice on what bikes i should check out i am tall and find my legs hips uncomfortably bent on most of the bikes i have ridden not many admittedly are there any bikes out there built for a taller rider there s plenty of legroom on the kawasaki klr a bit short in the braking department for spirited street riding but enough for dirt and for less agressive street stuff chuck karish karish mindcraft com x karish pangea stanford edu
rec.motorcycles	re drinking and riding what is a general rule of thumb for sobriety and cycling couple hours after you feel sober what or should i just work with if i drink tonight i don t ride until tomorrow this thread brings back memorys of an expensive day in traffic court a few years ago while i was waiting my turn to state my case and plea of why i was going in a in my cage i had the opportunity to listen to some of the creative excuses offered the judge by others after listening to a number of well i was passing a very slow truck that suddenly speed up versions i decided that the judge had heard just about every story in the book and then some he was less than impressed with any of them this young rather burley looking guy had his docket read by a rather drill sargent looking ohio state highyway patrol trooper he was clocked riding a motorcycle at a speed of mph in a mph zone it was also noted that the defendant motorcycle rider had alcohol on his breath but was not cited for this offence the judge looked over his half glasses purched on the end of his nose and said in his sternest voice well son those are some pretty fast speeds to be riding a motorcycle what do you have to say for your self well sir meekly the defenant replied i just was over to my buddys and we had a couple of beers and i was on my way home he offered nothing more or less just had a couple of beers and was doing mph on his way home the judge moved by the simplicity of the response fined him the maximum in this case plus court costs of course and ordered him to attend remedial drivers training school isn t america great bill mohrman cb c motorola sps columbus oh disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	re how big is too big was re st bike azw aber ac uk andy woodward writes azw weight and size over rough roads is a definite no no if is starts to azw drift you aint going to catch it leavitt cs umd edu mr bill says mrb if you re riding hard enough for this to be of concern then yes a mrb lighter bike is more beneficial ai cleveland freenet edu mike sturdevant writes ms if you re not riding hard enough for this to be a concern are you ms having any fun sure i ve never been much of a racerboy as anybody who s attended the minibike spectacular can attest i get a great deal of satisfaction in riding fast yet now so fast as to be overly concerned about not being able to maintain a clean line and while i m still known to slide the occasional tire i much prefer to stay just to the sticky side of that line i ve found that i don t heal as well as i used to in days of yore btw how s the knee mrb anyway am i more likely to catch a than a not necessarily mrb tires road surface and rider ability are a much more important criteria ms actually big horsepower is just as likely to get you out of trouble ms when it starts to drift as your puny body mass pushing on stuff a well ms placed push from or horsepower can do a lot to straighten or change ms in a beneficial way the trajectory of the bike rider system that s a quite true another plus for a bike the original thread i think damn circular threads ms go fast take chances ms ms mike s mr bill bill leavitt cbx white lightning gs g suzibago leavitt cs umd edu cj little honda lone star sick leave dod ama icoa nia impala convertible the incredible hulk others hmmm i thought bore and stroke was the technique michael bain
rec.motorcycles	re protective gear in article c wkfs bc eskimo com maven eskimo com norman hamer writes question for the day what protective gear is the most important i ve got a good helmet shoei rf and a good thick jacket leather gold and a pair of really cheap leather gloves what should my next purchase be better gloves boots leather pants what condom during wone of the times i had to go over my accident i was asked if i was wearing protection my responces was yes i was wearing a condom laz
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes in article apr unbvm csd unb ca c a unb ca c a writes in article c zkcl fgc ux cso uiuc edu eric ux cso uiuc edu cbr rr writes would someone please post the countersteering faq i am having this awful time debating with someone on why i push the right handle of my motorcycle foward when i am turning left and i can t explain well at least why this happens please help post the faq i need to convert him ummm if you push on the right handle of your bike while at speed and your bike turns left methinks your bike has a problem when i do it pushing the right side of my handlebars will send me left i m sure others will take up the slack oh yes i m quite sure they will axel
rec.motorcycles	re why i won t be getting my low rider this year in article mar pb esac uucp prahren pb esac uucp peter ahrens writes in article mar cbnewsj cb att com car cbnewsj cb att com charles a rogers writes i had planned to get an hd this year but instead i took delivery on a brand new male offspring er last monday sounds like you should have been doing your planning last year given harley davidson s product delivery lag and the human gestation cycle or perhaps any planning at all hiya pete still got that cbx nice to hear from you again and yes i finally did figure out why this happens and i have taken steps to ensure a storkish repetition that would be low drag bars and way rad rearsets for the fj so that the ergonomic constraints would have contraceptive consequences ouch this brings to mind one of the recommendations in the hurt study because the rear of the gas tank is in close proximity to highly prized and easily damaged anatomy hurt et al recommended that manufacturers build the tank so as to reduce the er step function provided when the rider s body slides off of the seat and onto the gas tank in the unfortunate event that the bike stops suddenly and the rider doesn t i think it s really inspiring how the manufacturers have taken this advice to heart in their design of bikes like the cbr rr and the gts a chuck rogers car torreys att com car cbnewsj att com
rec.motorcycles	re speeding ticket from chp in article pq t k i agate berkeley edu downey homer cs berkeley edu allen b downey writes fight your ticket california edition by david brown st ed berkeley ca nolo press the second edition is out but not in ucb s library good luck let us know how it goes daniel matejka writes the fourth edition is out too but it s probably also not very high on ucb s gotta have that list in article na em mcimail com mcimail com peter nesbitt writes riding to work last week via hwy from suisun to i i was pulled over by a chp black and white by the gas station by jameson canyon road the officer stated it looked like you were going kinda fast coming down highway you must have been going at least or i just said okay and did not agree or disagree to anything he said can you beat this ticket personally i think it s your duty as a citizen to make it as much trouble as possible for them so maybe they ll give up and leave us alone someday soon the cop was certainly within his legal rights to nail you by guessing your speed mr brown the author of fight your ticket mentions an oakland judge who convicted a speeder on the officer s testimony that the driver s car sounded like it was being driven at an excessive speed you can pay off the state and your insurance company or you can take it to court and be creative personally i ve never won that way or seen anyone win but the judge always listens politely and i haven t seen that many attempts you could try the argument that since bikes are shorter than the cars whose speed the nice officer is accustomed to guessing they therefore appear to be further away and so their speed appears to be greater than it actually is i left out a step or two but you get the idea if you can make it convincing theoretically you re supposed to win i ve never tried proving the cop was mistaken i did get to see some other poor biker try it he was mixing up various facts like the maximum acceleration of a cop car and the distance at which the cop had been pacing him and end up demonstrating that he couldn t possibly have been going as fast as the cop had suggested he d brought diagrams and a calculator he was prepared he lost keep in mind cops do this all the time and their word is better than yours maybe though they don t guess how fast bikes are going all the time besides this guy didn t speak english very well and ended up absolutely confounding the judge the cop and everyone else in the room who d been recently criminalized by some twit with a gun and a quota ahem ok i m better now maybe he d have won had his presentation been more polished maybe not he did get applause
rec.motorcycles	re dod oficial tm newbie bike of choice in article pplsc q news ysu edu ak yfn ysu edu john r daker writes i propose that the official dod newbie bike of choice tm be the zx d nothing like giving newbies a land rocket to practice on it offers enough power so that a novice rider can safely accelerate out of harms way in situations where a more experienced rider would use complex avoidance manouvers yup accelerate right into the back of an wheel truck um how s the easiest way to get newbies of the road regards ted university of toronto computer engineering powerusersgroupchairman fzr i m taking a ride with my best friend dod
rec.motorcycles	re cultural enquiries more like those who use their backs instead of their minds to make their living who are usually ignorant and intolerant of anything outside of their group or level of understanding there seems to be some confusion between rednecks and white trash the confusion is understandable as there is substantial overlap between the two sets let me see if i can clarify rednecks primarily use their backs instead of their minds to make a living usually somewhat ignorant by somebody s standards anyway because they have never held education above basic reading writing math skills to be that important to their eventual vocation note i did not say stupid just ignorant they might be stupid but then so are some high percentage of any group white trash white trash fit the stereotype referred to by the word nigger better than any black person i ever met only with the added bonus that white trash are mean as hell my father genuinely lazy not just out of work or under qualified good for nothing dishonest white people who are mean as snakes the squeal like a pig boys in deliverance may or may not have been rednecks but they were sure as hell white trash white trash are assuredly intolerant of anything outside of their group or level of understanding rednecks may or may not be curtis jackson cjackson mv us adobe com hawk gt maxim dod kotb black lab mix studley doright collie golden george there is no justification for taking away individuals freedom in the guise of public safety thomas jefferson
rec.motorcycles	re protective gear in article apr rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca writes in article c wkfs bc eskimo com maven eskimo com norman hamer writes question for the day what protective gear is the most important i ve got a good helmet shoei rf and a good thick jacket leather gold and a pair of really cheap leather gloves what should my next purchase be better gloves boots leather pants what i would go for the gloves there s not a whole lot that you can do in life if you have no skin on your hands yup ruins your sex life tony tony kidson pgp key by request voice morgan towers the cat has had to move now e mail in order morgan road as i ve had to take the top tony morgan demon co uk bromley off of the machine tny cix compulink co uk england br qe honda st dod compuserve com
rec.motorcycles	re twit bicyclists was re oh joy in article apr spectrum xerox com cooley xerox com writes yo assholes i hope you are all just kidding because it s exactly that kind of attidue that gets many a motorcyclist killed look at the leather clad poseurs watch how they swirve and swear as i pretend that they don t exist while i change lanes if you really find it necesary to wreck others enjoyment of the road to boost your ego then it is truely you who are the poseur aaron disgruntled volvo drivers what are they rebelling against steatopygias s r us doh that ain t no hottentot sesquipedalian s r us zx ama dod there ain t no more
rec.motorcycles	re question arai quantum s in article c zqel e b ms uky edu amir ms uky edu amir sadr writes they way i want it to however i have the following problem my chin hangs out from the bottom of the helmet i am curious to know whether i would still have this problem if i were to switch to the extra large size in particular can anyone tell me for certain if the outer shell of the arai quantum s in size x large is any different larger rounder etc than the same helmet in size large or if the inner padding foam on the x large is such that one s head fits a little deeper in the helmet and thus one s chin would not stick out this is true for the very old arthur fulmer helmets that i have namely my chin hangs out a little from the bottom of the large helmet and not at all from the x large but the x large is not as snug as the large the dealer is willing to replace the helmet at no additional cost i e shipping but i want to make sure that the x large is in fact a little bigger or linered such that my chin will not hang out and how much looser will my head fit in the x large if anyone has recent experience with this helmet please let me hear e mail from you asap thank you so much amir i m not sure about the helmet but for chin questions you might want to write to a jay leno c o tonight show burbank calif good luck steatopygias s r us doh that ain t no hottentot sesquipedalian s r us zx ama dod there ain t no more
rec.motorcycles	re living in article apr rchland ibm com pooder rchland vnet ibm com don fearn writes in article apr unbvm csd unb ca c a c a unb ca writes i sprained my right ankle once and kept riding when i broke my right leg in two places i had knee surgery while i was in the navy back in the doctors put me in a cast from ass to ankle my only method of transportaion was a dohc honda at the time i found that by sliding back on the seat i could use my heel did i mention it was my left leg to operate the shift i would hook the end of the lever with my heel and lift my entire leg for up shifts and just drop my leg on the lever for the down shifts forget nutral took way too much finesse for the leg the crutches were bungee corded to the right side of the bike with the top resting on the passenger peg and the right turnsignal sticking through the hole in the crutches every other day when i rode the miles to physical therapy tourture sessions the doc would give me hell about riding a bike much less riding in my condition didn t stop me tho b p btw this is the same bike i assembled in my second floor barracks room and rode down the stairs when it was completed i am not paid to have an opinion dr speed suzuki gs g dod
rec.motorcycles	re speeding ticket from chp in article dmatejkac dmb lh netcom com dmatejka netcom com daniel matejka writes in article pq t k i agate berkeley edu downey homer cs berkeley edu allen b downey writes fight your ticket california edition by david brown st ed berkeley ca nolo press the second edition is out but not in ucb s library good luck let us know how it goes daniel matejka writes can you beat this ticket personally i think it s your duty as a citizen to make it as much trouble as possible for them so maybe they ll give up and leave us alone someday soon the cop was certainly within his legal rights to nail you by guessing your speed mr brown the author of fight your ticket mentions an oakland judge who convicted a speeder on the officer s testimony that the driver s car sounded like it was being driven at an excessive speed cough choke what if a cop gave me a ticket for sounding like i was speeding i d probably show up in court without a lawyer simply because sounding like speeding is ridiculous if i was found guilty i d appeal and then show up with a lawyer if a cop doesn t do one of vascar from car or plane radar lidar other electronic speed measuring device pace me and i m within mph or so of the limit i d go to court i can accept a cop seeing me going excessively fast like over the limit but he looked like he was going or so in a zone is not beyond a reasonable doubt granted i may well lose the case but in a measured by eye take it to court for sure axel
rec.motorcycles	re protective gear in article c wkfs bc eskimo com maven eskimo com norman hamer writes question for the day what protective gear is the most important i ve got a good helmet shoei rf and a good thick jacket leather gold and a pair of really cheap leather gloves what should my next purchase be better gloves boots leather pants what what s your favorite body part blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
rec.motorcycles	re why i won t be getting my low rider this year in article apr cbnewsj cb att com car cbnewsj cb att com charles a rogers writes in article mar pb esac uucp prahren pb esac uucp peter ahrens writes that would be low drag bars and way rad rearsets for the fj so that the ergonomic constraints would have contraceptive consequences ouch this brings to mind one of the recommendations in the hurt study because the rear of the gas tank is in close proximity to highly prized and easily damaged anatomy hurt et al recommended that manufacturers build the tank so as to reduce the er step function provided when the rider s body slides off of the seat and onto the gas tank in the unfortunate event that the bike stops suddenly and the rider doesn t i think it s really inspiring how the manufacturers have taken this advice to heart in their design of bikes like the cbr rr and the gts a i dunno on my old gs e the tank seat junction was nice and smooth but if you were to travel all the way forward you d collect the top triple clamp in a sensitive area i d hate to have to make the choice but i think i d prefer the fj s gas tank blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
rec.motorcycles	re speeding ticket from chp interesting i d fight the ticket first off there s a chance the cop won t show up secondly if he does show up you should point out that he lied purgered on the ticket why i beleive that if yo re charged with going more than mph that the posted speed it s a more severe ticket you couldn t have p ossibly been going right max queernet org max j rochlin uunet sgi unpc max protect me from what i want
rec.motorcycles	eating and riding was re drinking and riding what s the feeling about eating and riding i went out riding this weekend and got a little carried away with some pecan pie the whole ride back i felt sluggish i was certainly much more alert on the ride in i m sure others have the same feeling but the strangest thing is that eating is usually the turnaround point of weekend rides from now on a little snack will do i d much rather have a get that full sluggish feeling closer to home paul paul nakada oracle corporation pnakada oracle com dod r c k s
rec.motorcycles	re protective gear in article apr rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes i m still looking for good gloves myself as the ones i have now are too loose when you find some new ones i suggest donating the ones you have now to the lautrec family in france grin michael michael nelson cbr rr internet nelson seahunt imat com dod
rec.motorcycles	re goldwing performance hpcc rec motorcycles stafford vax winona msus edu john stafford am apr in article pf hs b d transfer stratus com cdodson beast cac stratus com r craig dodson wrote from the summary in the back of motorcyclist they run the in at about mph interestingly enough this winnebago of bikes is faster than any of the harleys listed it depreciates much faster too john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply the gl a hit the traps at according to cycle magazine yeah they depreciate faster than harleys for the first couple of years then they bottom out got my gl i w miles on the odometer for just under k in may of and would ask for now with almost k miles onnit that s about of what a new gl i would cost think the gl i originally sold for brand new not sure if that s the case then it depreciated over years or a mere big fat hairy deal based on what i know harleys tend to depreciate your monies far more than the initial depreciation of the bike itself when it comes to parts and service all this about harleys holding their value better doesn t always wash away the knocks on them such as being much slower according to peter egan in the just released cycle world his flhs is a real dog when he pillions his lb wife all that money for a dog that doesn t defecate much graeme harrison hewlett packard co communications components division w trimble rd san jose ca gharriso hpcc corp hp com dod
rec.motorcycles	data logging greetings can someone steer me towards sources of information on vehicle data logging systems in particular i would like to build buy or a little of both a system that is small enough to fit on a motorcycle and will take input from various sensors pressure lvdt s acceleration rpm o sensor digitize and record it for later analysis please email me any info if i get anything interesting i ll compile it and get it on the net thanks marty capadona marty carter ca boeing com seattle wa gpz gs hawk gt gs ama msf wmrra omrra forget what i said
rec.motorcycles	re drinking and riding norman hamer maven eskimo com wrote what is a general rule of thumb for sobriety and cycling couple hours after you feel sober what or should i just work with if i drink tonight i don t ride until tomorrow it depends on how badly you want to live the faa says eight hours bottle to throttle for pilots but recommends twenty four hours the fars specify a blood alcohol level of as legally drunk i think which is more than twice as strict as dwi minimums btw alcohol metabolizes in your blood at a fixed rate one beer hour will keep your blood alcohol level barely street legal coffee hyperventilation and other bar tricks won t speed it up nor will they fool mr ranger stephen manes manes magpie linknet com manes and associates new york ny usa o o
rec.motorcycles	fork seals i m about to undertake changing the fork seals on my ex my clymer manual says i need the following tools from kawasaki t handle looking thing in illustration some type of adapter for the end of the t handle no illustration of this tool and the manual just refers to it as the kawasaki tool oil seal and bearing remover how necessary are these tools considering the dealers around here didn t have the clymer manual fork seals and a turn signal assembly in stock i really doubt they have these tools in stock and i d really like to get this done this week any help would be appreciated as always vela acs oakland edu psgi todd rm the only bike sold without todd doolittle a red line troy mi ex dod
rec.motorcycles	bmw r info wanted hi someone is selling his bmw r i think it s an w k miles for he says it s in great condition and perfect shape it s got the hard saddle bags too is this a good deal seems like an awesome deal is it assuming that everything he says is true thanks jae jae cmu edu
rec.motorcycles	re motorcycle courier summer job in article poj inn k west west sun com gaijin ale japan sun com john little nihon sun repair depot writes in article uupcb compdyn questor org ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau writes i think i ve found the ultimate summer job it s dangerous involves motorcycles requires high speeds in traffic and it pays well so my question is as follows has anyone here done this sort of work what was your experience stuff deleted get a good atoz type indexed streetmap for all of the areas you re likely to work always carry plenty of black plastic bin liners to check with the local fire department my buddy is a firefighter and they have these small map books which are amazing they are compact easy to use no folding they even have a cross reference section in which you match your current cross streets with the cross streets you want to go to and it details the quickest route they gave me an extra they had laying around but then again i know all those people i m not really sure if they are supposed to give sell them the police may also have something similar john little gaijin japan sun com sun microsystems atsugi japan vela acs oakland edu psgi todd rm the only bike sold without todd doolittle a red line troy mi ex dod
rec.motorcycles	help with backpack as summer approaches the usual preparations are being made me was thinking of going for some overnite camping trips in the local state forests for that i was planning to get a backpack rucksack the next question is how shall i carry the thing on the bike given the metal frame and all i have a big backrest approx high and was hoping that i would be able to bungee cord the backpack to the backrest any one have any experiences on such experimentation taking the idea further what would happen if the backpack was fully loaded with a full load lbs is the load distribution going to be very severly affected how will the bike perform with such a load clinging to the back rest if i really secure it with no shifting do i still increase my chances of surfing collective r m wisdom requested p s i really can t afford leather pants boots and jeans are all i can make do with what you think of the knee protectors which rollerbladers use the one l l bean and like sells is that a bad idea tm are there any equivalents cb dod i would give my right arm to be ambidextrous
rec.motorcycles	bmw k rt for sale this is posted for a friend please reply to dschick holonet net bmw k rt for sale asking or best offer this bike has a full faring and is great for touring or commuting it has about k miles and has been well cared for the bike comes with one hard saddle bag the left one the right side bag was stolen a harro tank bag the large one and an ungo box alarm interested then please drop me a line das
rec.motorcycles	re drinking and riding mjmuise watstar uwaterloo ca mike muise writes in article c wkbp b w eskimo com maven eskimo com norman hamer writes what is a general rule of thumb for sobriety and cycling couple hours after you feel sober what or should i just work with if i drink tonight i don t ride until tomorrow hr drink for the first drinks hours drink for the next drinks hours drink for the rest i took an alcohol server s class a few years ago what the hey my employer paid for it we were told that the drink hour rule was written with proof booze and a pound person in mind drinking cuervo gold weighing in i obviously will get drunk faster than the theoretical person mentioned above worse imagine rum coke made with bacardi mind you all that s for getting too drunk to drive a car i may only have been riding for a month or so but i plan my evenings with a very rigid exclusive or statement either don t drink or don t ride pretty simple these are fairly cautious guidelines and will work even if you happen to have a low tolerance or body mass i think the cops and don t you dare drink drive tm commercials will usually say hr drink in general but after about drinks and hrs you could very well be over the legal limit watch yourself mike sorry mike i have to believe that that policy works best as fertilizer even if all you plan to do is drive home nice and safe in your cage mike muise mjmuise watstar uwaterloo ca no quotes no jokes electrical engineering university of waterloo no disclaimer no fear dean woodward you want to step into my world dean fringe rain com it s a socio psychotic state of bliss virago guns n roses my world dod
rec.motorcycles	re drinking and riding cjackson adobe com curtis jackson writes in article mjmuise watstar uwaterloo ca mjmuise wats i think the cops and don t you dare drink drive tm commercials will usually say hr drink in general but after about drinks and hrs you could very well be over the legal limit watch yourself indeed especially if you are smart and eat some food with your drink the food coating the stomach lining especially things like milk can temporarily retard the absorption of alcohol when the food is digested the absorption will proceed and you will actually be drunker i e have a higher instantaneous bac than you would have been if you had drunk drink hr on an empty stomach put another way food can cause you to be less drunk than drinking on an empty stomach early on in those five hours but more drunk than drinking on an empty stomach later in those five hours curtis jackson cjackson mv us adobe com hawk gt maxim dod kotb black lab mix studley doright collie golden george there is no justification for taking away individuals freedom in the guise of public safety thomas jefferson again from my alcohol server s class the absolute most that eating before drinking can do is slow the absorption down by minutes that gives me time to eat slam one beer and ride like hell to try to make it home in the minutes left after paying donning helmet gloves starting bike dean woodward you want to step into my world dean fringe rain com it s a socio psychotic state of bliss virago guns n roses my world dod
rec.motorcycles	mgnoc address if anyone has the current moto guzzi national owners club address please e mail it to me thanks in advance t k
rec.motorcycles	re help with backpack sanjay kin lap upenn edu sanjay sinha writes as summer approaches the usual preparations are being made me was thinking of going for some overnite camping trips in the local state forests for that i was planning to get a backpack rucksack the next question is how shall i carry the thing on the bike given the metal frame and all i have a big backrest approx high and was hoping that i would be able to bungee cord the backpack to the backrest any one have any experiences on such experimentation taking the idea further what would happen if the backpack was fully loaded with a full load lbs is the load distribution going to be very severly affected how will the bike perform with such a load clinging to the back rest if i really secure it with no shifting do i still increase my chances of surfing i ride my bike regularly to classes with my book bag i take the shoulder straps on the bag and hook them around the rear turn signals i works fine you probably will want to attach it with a bungee cord to keep it from shifting to one side or another dan ramage ramage charlie ece scarolina edu vulcan dod i wanted a harley but i haven t won the lottery yet them bats is smart they use radar d letterman
rec.motorcycles	re new hudson questions davide dcs qmw ac uk dave edmondson writes dave tharp cds davet interceptor cds tek com wrote in article kmr b w w ham almanac bc ca emd ham almanac bc ca writes one of their main designers bert le vack broke many records at brooklands in the late s in the early s bert le vack set records on indians including mph at brooklands in november of on a in powerplus racing model must have been a busy lad he was also a tuner and all round guru at jap and worked with george brough can someone post me details of the illustrated ecyclopedia of motorcycles sounds like a book i ought to have a copy of sure i can the illustrated encyclopedia of motorcycles edited by erwin tragatsch was published by the hamlyn publishing group limited astronaut house hounslow road feltham middlesex england it was first published in and mine was reprinted in cost then was pounds in the uk though i paid for it in canadian dollars i have no idea whether it s still in print perhaps you could let the net know bob robert smits ladysmith bc if lucas built weapons wars emd ham almanac bc ca would never start either
rec.motorcycles	re this just in in article apr rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes in article apr i isc com jeq lachman com jonathan e quist writes in article mar rchland ibm com pooder msus msus edu writes sampled recently were using unauthorized software the inspector general said in a new report the inspector general make way for his excellency the inspector general hail hail to brodney to the sky behold the lord high executioner no that s something else i ve already discussed this in e mail with jonathan it s the film the inspector general with danny kaye although i can t quote the name of the leading lady because maltin doesn t jonathan thinks there was an earlier russian film movies on tv just says it was based on a gogol yes jonathan i looked it up again only two o s story ivan reid paul scherrer institute ch ivan cvax psi ch gsx f rg wd si you porsche me pass dod
rec.motorcycles	for sale kawasaki ex michigan for sale kawasaki ex with miles excellent condition kept in a garage asking he who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt he has been given a large brain by mistake since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice albert einstein brian vaughan brian vaughan um cc umich edu
rec.motorcycles	re beer unto bicyclists in article mar erich triumf ca ivan erich triumf ca ivan d reid wrote in article tcora b gator pica army mil tcora pica army mil tom coradeschi writes mxcrew problem with inews domain file the mx crew wrote just an information no flame war please budweiser is a beer from the old csfr nowadays tschechien i just know the german word czechoslovakia budweiser budwar pronounced bud var not any more a short while ago jan st it split into the czech republic and slovakia actually i think for a couple of years its official name was the czech and slovak republics sheesh don t you guys get cnn cnn yuppietv tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult to redirect awe inspiring entertaining and a source of mind boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it gene spafford
rec.motorcycles	re speeding ticket from chp in article pqarb fnq gaia ucs orst edu crucej osshe edu jerry cruce writes peter nesbitt mcimail com wrote riding to work last week via hwy from suisun to i i was pulled over by a chp black and white by the gas station by jameson canyon road the officer stated it looked like you were going kinda fast coming down highway you must have been going at least or i just said okay and did not agree or disagree to anything he said the next time you get stoped by a cop never never never admit to anything don t volunteer any information when a retoracle question is ask by the cop like it looked like you were going kinda fast coming down highway you must have been going at least or the correct reponse is to deny it this technique is employed by police to help establish guilt especially when times out of he she is not sure who was doing the speeding if the cop is unsure this may be the difference of him letting you off the hook or getting the tissue hope this helps for next time steven bakalis
rec.motorcycles	re identify this bike for me in article apr adobe com cjackson adobe com curtis jackson writes in article apr ucsu colorado edu coburnn spot colorado edu nicholas s coburn writes first i thought it was an rc a hawk modified by two brothers racing but i did not think that they made this huge tank for it additionally i think i ve seen this bike is it all white with a sea green stripe and just honda for decals i ve seen such a bike numerous times over by sewall hall at cu and i thought it was a race prepped cbr i didn t see it over at the ec parking lot i buzzed over there on my way home all of block off my route but it was gone is a single sided swingarm available for the cbr i would imagine so kinda neccisary for quick tire changes when i first saw it i assumed it was a bike repainted to cover crash damage joel
rec.motorcycles	re help with backpack sanjay sinha sanjay kin lap upenn edu wrote the next question is how shall i carry the thing on the bike given the metal frame and all i have a big backrest approx high and was hoping that i would be able to bungee cord the backpack to the backrest any one have any experiences on such experimentation put the pack on the pillion and bungee it to the backrest if that is not possible then you should be able to bungee it behind the backrest just make sure it doesn t bend or break anything like the rear fender or turnsignals bill ranck ranck joesbar cc vt edu cars making a sudden u turn are the most dangerous they may cut you off entirely blocking the whole roadway and leaving you no place to go pg msf motorcycle operator manual sixth rev
rec.motorcycles	re kawi zephyr was re vision vs gpz in article apr pro haven cts com shadow pro haven cts com writes in apr organpipe uug arizona edu asphaug lpl arizona edu erik asphaug x writes by the way the short lived zephyr is essentially a gpz why was the zephyr discontinued i heard something about a problem with the name but i never did hear anything certain ford had an anemic mid sized car by that name back in the last decade i rented one once that car would ruin the name zephyr for any other use rod roderick sprattling no job too great no time too small sprattli azores crd ge com with feet to fire and back to wall
rec.motorcycles	re why i won t be getting my low rider this year in article apr cbnewsj cb att com car cbnewsj cb att com charles a rogers writes ouch this brings to mind one of the recommendations in the hurt study because the rear of the gas tank is in close proximity to highly prized and easily damaged anatomy hurt et al recommended that manufacturers build the tank so as to reduce the er step function provided when the rider s body slides off of the seat and onto the gas tank in the unfortunate event that the bike stops suddenly and the rider doesn t i think it s really inspiring how the manufacturers have taken this advice to heart in their design of bikes like the cbr rr and the gts a when i m riding my rr my goodies are already up against the tank because the design of the corbin seat tends to move you forward wouldn t the major danger to one s cajones be due to accelerating into and then being stopped by the tank if you re already there there wouldn t be an impact problem would there michael michael nelson cbr rr internet nelson seahunt imat com dod
rec.motorcycles	re thoughts on a yamaha seca turbo in article apr skyfox howp skyfox writes i was wondering if anybody knows anything about a yamaha seca turbo i m considering buying a used seca turbo for canadian us with km on the odo this will be my first bike any comments don t just nab it pounce on it these are fairly rare bikes and they are more than adequate for putting a big brown stripe in your shorts does a mph power wheelie appeal to you i thought it would only really bad things the stock clutch isn t up to the task barnett can take care of this the back tire wears quickly gee wonder why and the induction system is a bear to work on later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx pending delivery agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	re tools tools tools in article apr research nj nec com behanna phoenix syl nj nec com chris behanna writes while we re on the subject has anyone else noticed that the deep well in craftsman s sae deep well set is too small to fit a bolt or nut when i took the socket in for an exchange every one of the deep well sockets on the rack had the exact same problem looking into the socket it appears that craftsman s toolmaker attempted to imitate flank drive on this piece but did not account for the extra clearance needed inside the socket never had any problem with mine are you sure the nut bolt you are trying is really a hex mm is just slightly larger and a wrench won t fit on a gm mm nut my gmc pickup has several mm nuts on it really annoying metric threads too seems that most of the body is metric most of the engine is sae jonathan lusky lusky ccwf cc utexas edu jeep wrangler for sale rx a holley bbl camaro rs spd
rec.motorcycles	re live free but quietly or die in article c nnt j i dartvax dartmouth edu russell p hughes dartmouth edu r ussell p hughes writes what a great day got back home last night from some fantastic skiing in colorado and put the battery back in the fxstc cleaned the plugs opened up the petcock waited a minute hit the starter and bingo it started up like a charm spent a restless night anticipating the first ride du saison and off i went this morning to get my state inspection done now my bike is stock so far except for hd slash cut pipes and therein lies the rub the hd slash cut or baloney cuts as some call them are not stock mufflers they re sold for off road use only and are much louder than stock mufflers arnie
rec.motorcycles	tracing license plates of bdi cagers this morning a truck that had been within my sight and i within his for about miles suddenly forgot that i existed and pulled over right on me my front wheel was about even with the back edge of his front passenger door as i was accelerating past him it was trivial enough for me to tap the brakes and slide behind him as he slewed over with no signal of course on top of me with my little horn blaring damn i need fiamms but the satisfaction of being aware of my surroundings and thus surviving was not enough especially when i later pulled up alongside the bastard and he made no apologetic wave or anything is there some way that i can memorize the license plate of an offending vehicle and get the name and address of the owner i m not going to firebomb houses or anything i d just like to write a consciousness raising letter or two i think that it would be good for bdi cagers to know that we know where they live maybe they d use or brain cells while driving instead of the usual curtis jackson cjackson mv us adobe com hawk gt maxim dod kotb black lab mix studley doright collie golden george there is no justification for taking away individuals freedom in the guise of public safety thomas jefferson
rec.motorcycles	re cnn california mc helmet law article jlp wink jlp blink att com jon peticolas x writes hey it works you could present the paragraph above to virtually any member of the non motorcycling public and they ll buy right into it just about any argument you can produce in favor of banning helmetless riding can be used to argue in favor of banning motorcycles it s just a matter of degree that s absurd that statement must therefore say that any argument in favor of seatbelts or airbags is an argument against automobiles any argument for lifeguards is an argument against swimming it says that any agrgument in favor of safety precautions is an argument for banning the activity to which the precautions apply extrapolating to that degree is ridiculous there wouldn t be any normal human activity left to do therefore it is a non seqitur also even though most people do not ride motorcycles they do boat sail jetski climb ski fly parachute hang glide glide bungee jump bike skate rollerblade skateboard play rugby ouch mow the lawn rewire the basement operate heavy machinery and do a host of other dangerous things that would all be as valid as motorcycling as activities to ban your little homily applies to all those things and the general public buying into banning motorcycles without realizing that their activity would be next is unlikely terry cunningham terry rsi prc com donuts is there anything they dod diviner of dreams can t do homer hifi
rec.motorcycles	re live free but quietly or die in article c nnt j i dartvax dartmouth edu russell p hughes dartmouth edu russell p hughes writes start her up and rev to about rpm i fail cuz i register db and the max allowed is if i fail with these pipes there are gonna next time make the numbers more believable this is poor flamebait db is getting close to the sound of a jumbo jet engine at takeoff revs from some small number of yards away it is certainly right around the pain threshold for humans no way in hell the state permits db if they have any standard at all curtis jackson cjackson mv us adobe com hawk gt maxim dod kotb black lab mix studley doright collie golden george there is no justification for taking away individuals freedom in the guise of public safety thomas jefferson
rec.motorcycles	re kawi zephyr was re vision vs gpz in article organpipe uug arizona edu asphaug lpl arizona edu erik asphaug x writes by the way bob er dave sorry i had read a review that said the engine was pretty much identical to the gpz but that the suspension and frame is more modern the fancy piggyback shocks on the and the i think i don t know about the zr are very nice way adjustability the forks are crappy they dive like mad i had progressive springs installed and it made a huge difference cheap fix much improvement elef
rec.motorcycles	re how not to put a motor together in article apr tcsi com markk tcs com mark kromer writes in article mimsy umd edu leavitt cs mr bill writes put pistons in bores first then lower onto bottom end deleted has anybody actually carried out this procedure i can visualize fewer problems with canting pistons in the cylinders with this method but more trouble with keeping the bores suspended especially for the first two pistons and with working space to insert piston pins and clips especially for the last two pistons it is certainly possible and quite easy in most cases especially on two strokes it s very common to do this on bikes where the cylinder mounting through studs don t prevent the cylinder from being removed with the engine in the frame i did this when i assembled the top end on my indian which was easier yet because it does not have through studs base flange studs and separate head bolts dontchaknow you have to use a little foresight rags duct tape etc to keep clips from falling in clothespins hoseclamps etc to support the cylinder while you re inserting the pins are these called gudgeon pins in the uk if so what s a gudgeon dave tharp dod you can t wear out davet interceptor cds tek com mra an indian scout k s indian chief ahrma or its brother the chief r s tr b ama they re built like rocks r velorex nsu max to take the knocks bmw r compulsive it s the harleys that my employer has no idea joiner give you grief
rec.motorcycles	re why mod a zx was zx cylinder running hot in apr exu ericsson se lmcstst noah ericsson se stamos stamos writes in article apr research nj nec com behanna phoenix syl nj nec com chris behanna writes power hmmmmmm well i haven t got it on the dyno or jetted waiting for the snow to melt although i have a factory jet kit advance jets are s the stock is my book says calif uk strange i don t want to fit it unless there is a dyno handy i ve heard that bikes tuned to perfection on the dyno can be a little too close to the edge for street use cold morning bad gas etc apparently they back them of some even for track use you pays your money jorg klinger gsxr if you only new who arch eng services lost horizons cr i think i am umanitoba man ca the embalmer it anonymous stamos lmcstst lmc ericsson se zzr ellas ericsson cellular design montreal canada
rec.motorcycles	re for johs dhhalden no davet interceptor cds tek com dave tharp cds writes in article rider uucp joe rider cactus org writes cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes bozo posts gifs to rec moto he and his postmaster are also gonna get copies of the post in their mailboxes hey it s a great picture you can t fault his taste only his technique chill out and educate instead of getting your panties in a bunch ditto to you dave i m using the picture as the bacground on my sun and i haven t sent a single message to the guy looks like you get to keep the panties joe senner joe rider cactus org austin tx warning do not look into laser with remaining eye posted in a radioactive isotope research lab from r h f
rec.motorcycles	re drinking and riding in article c ut a i magpie linknet com manes magpie linknet com steve manes writes drinking riding it depends on how badly you want to live the faa says eight hours bottle to throttle for pilots but recommends twenty four hours the fars specify a blood alcohol level of as legally drunk i think which is more than twice as strict as dwi minimums is dwi in new york here the limit is bruce clarke b c environment e mail bclarke galaxy gov bc ca
rec.motorcycles	re protective gear in article snz morgan demon co uk tony morgan demon co uk tony kidson writes in article apr rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca writes in article c wkfs bc eskimo com maven eskimo com norman hamer writes what protective gear is the most important i would go for the gloves there s not a whole lot that you can do in life if you have no skin on your hands yup ruins your sex life your sex life maybe bruce clarke b c environment e mail bclarke galaxy gov bc ca
rec.motorcycles	live free but quietly or die what a great day got back home last night from some fantastic skiing in colorado and put the battery back in the fxstc cleaned the plugs opened up the petcock waited a minute hit the starter and bingo it started up like a charm spent a restless night anticipating the first ride du saison and off i went this morning to get my state inspection done now my bike is stock so far except for hd slash cut pipes and all went well with my new hampshire state inspection meaning all my lights worked ok until the dude produces a decibel meter and tells me about the new nh law about mc noise huh sez i and he has me start her up and rev to about rpm i fail cuz i register db and the max allowed is if i fail with these pipes there are gonna be a whole lotta seriously pissed off bikers round here when they go for inspection but hey its a new experience i have never really felt like a menace to society before i parked dismounted and walked in to my building with a slight swagger to my step and a narrow lidded look i sensed my faculty colleagues unease with my new intimidating status and women s glances seemed to linger just a little longer or perhaps that was my imagination sigh now i need to install my new bub pipes and single fire ignition i wonder how i will do after that russ hughes fxstc dod e love yeah that s the feeling you get when you like something as much as your motorcycle sonny barger as told to me by ed campbell who has an old friend who was there at the time
rec.motorcycles	re insect impacts in article emoryu cc emory edu labrg emory edu ryan montieth gill writes for those who have had problems with small birds what about the large raptor types when they are swooping across the road after smallish prey i had a hawk falcon what ever come within feet of me lucky for him or me for that matter he noticed me and my and pulled up on his her trajectory at the last moment scared the shit outa me nothing like a red tailed hawk in the face talons and all i wonder if riding a nighthawk has anything to do with it hmmmm ryan i got a male mallard duck in the chest once it was like being kicked by my karate instructor no accident but my eyes were tearing so hard and i was wheezing so loudly that it s quite remarkable that i was able to come to a stop with the rubber side up the duck btw lived and seemed quite healthy though we both sat by the roadside and shook our heads for a few minutes the bruise went from my right collar bone all the way down to my belly button regards charles dod rz within the span of the last few weeks i have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person
rec.motorcycles	ec bhp limit vetoed according to bbc radio this morning uk denmark portugal a few others have vetoed a proposal to limit ec sold bikes to bhp the reason is that such a limit is not supported by accident statistics a rare example of governmental wisdom the limit has a five year moratorium on it and specialist manufacturers will be exempt anyway any suspicion that this is a crafty trick to restrict that end of the market in europe to triumph norton who bmw cagiva ducati is the sort of dangerous rubbish which stalls gatt talks you heard it here first bill univ edinburgh replete with hp and a healthy blue exhaust
rec.motorcycles	re speeding ticket from chp in article dmatejkac dmb lh netcom com dmatejka netcom com daniel matejka writes in article pq t k i agate berkeley edu downey homer cs berkeley edu allen b downey writes fight your ticket california edition by david brown st ed berkeley ca nolo press the second edition is out but not in ucb s library good luck let us know how it goes daniel matejka writes the fourth edition is out too but it s probably also not very high on ucb s gotta have that list in article na em mcimail com mcimail com peter nesbitt writes riding to work last week via hwy from suisun to i i was pulled over by a chp black and white by the gas station by jameson canyon road the officer stated it looked like you were going kinda fast coming down highway you must have been going at least or i just said okay and did not agree or disagree to anything he said can you beat this ticket personally i think it s your duty as a citizen to make it as much trouble as possible for them so maybe they ll give up and leave us alone someday soon right on it is every citizen s right and duty to force government accountability anecdotes deleted i ve never tried proving the cop was mistaken i did get to see some other poor biker try it he was mixing up various facts like the maximum acceleration of a cop car and the distance at which the cop had been pacing him and end up demonstrating that he couldn t possibly have been going as fast as the cop had suggested he d brought diagrams and a calculator he was prepared he lost keep in mind cops do this all the time and their word is better than yours also keep in mind that cops will lie in court to get their way don t get me started by asking how i know if you decide to fight you have to be ready for this as well as devise strategy to make the cop s story doubtful in the judge jury s mind maybe though they don t guess how fast bikes are going all the time besides this guy didn t speak english very well and ended up absolutely confounding the judge the cop and everyone else in the room who d been recently criminalized by some twit with a gun and a quota ahem ok i m better now maybe he d have won had his presentation been more polished maybe not he did get applause ed mcfarland ewm mvuzr att com us marshalls corner marshals the best seat in the house to watch motorcycle roadracing no passing on waving yellow
rec.motorcycles	re carrying crutches was re living in article pqhkl g usenet ins cwru edu ai cleveland freenet edu mike sturdevant writes when i got my knee rebuilt i got back on the street bike asap i put the crutches on the rack and the passenger seat and they hung out back a long way just make sure they re tied down tight in front and no problemo hmm sounds like a useful trick it d keep the local cagers at least a crutch length off my tail light which is more than they give me now but do i have to break a leg to use it when i broke my ankle dirt biking i ended up strapping the crutches to the back of the bike riding to the lab it was my right ankle but the bike was a gt and started easily by hand ivan reid paul scherrer institute ch ivan cvax psi ch gsx f rg wd beware drainage ditches on firetrails dod
rec.motorcycles	thoughts on a yamaha seca turbo i was wondering if anybody knows anything about a yamaha seca turbo i m considering buying a used seca turbo for canadian us with km on the odo this will be my first bike any comments thanks peter how institute of space and atmospheric studies university of saskatchewan saskatoon saskatchewan canada in how skisas usask ca clapped out ford truck
rec.motorcycles	re its still cold but one thing is certain though its still too cold after about minutes i had to stop and hold my muffler for a while be very careful about this if youre really cold the muffler will feel fine till you leave all the charred skin on it when you peel your hands off i speak from experience you can also do all kindsa americanism of the day damage to your circulation warming hands up on something too hot by far the best fastest and safest way to do it is to shove the hands up the opposit sleeves and stand there like a ming emporer for a while five minutes should do it
rec.motorcycles	re its still cold but first ride of the season one thing is certain though its still too cold after about minutes i had to stop and hold my muffler for a while when i got home after a few hours i kept all my gear on for about a half hour in the house f humidity no wind protection and mph do not mix well hell this is warm i retired my fleece from under the aerostich last month when the temperature got aboce try living a couple of years on the dole so you cant afford any heating you put the gear on in october abd you take it off again in may getting out on the bike seems like a luxury in comparison cos oyur usuallu going somewhere warm its all relative happy cold riding who are you trying to kid its the pain that makes it all worthwhile
rec.motorcycles	re freezing and riding every spec of alertness to keep from getting squished otherwise it s not only dangerous it s unpleasant the same goes for cold and fatigue as i once took a half hour nap at a gas station to insure that i would make it yeah hypothermia is much more detrimemtal to your judgement and reactions than people realise i wish i had the patience to stop when i should one day i ll pay for it if you begin to shiver stop and warm up thoroughly if you leave it till the shivering stops this doesnt mean you re ok again it means you re a danger to yourself and everyone else on the road your brain and body are working about as fast as a tree grows you will not realise this yourself till you hit something the next stage is passing out this usually means falling off
rec.motorcycles	re drinking and riding so you can t ride the bike but you will drive truck home the judgement and motor skills needed to pilot a moto are not required in a cage this scares the sh t out of me this is a piece of psychology its essential for any long term biker to understand people do not think if i do this will someone else suffer they assess things purely on if i do this will i suffer this is a vital concept in bike cage interaction
rec.motorcycles	re eating and riding was re drinking and riding in article pnakada apr pnakada oracle com paul nakada pnakada oracle com writes what s the feeling about eating and riding i went out riding this weekend and got a little carried away with some pecan pie the whole ride back i felt sluggish i was certainly much more alert on the ride in i m sure others have the same feeling but the strangest thing is that eating is usually the turnaround point of weekend rides from now on a little snack will do i d much rather have a get that full sluggish feeling closer to home paul paul nakada oracle corporation pnakada oracle com dod r c k s to maintain my senses at their sharpest i never eat a full meal within hrs of a ride i ve tried slim fast lite before a ride but found that my lap times around the parliament buildings suffered secs the resultant pound weight loss over the summer just sharpens my bike s handling and i can always look forward to a winter of carbo loading obligatory dave d f it s true they say that money talks when mine spoke it said buy me a drink
rec.motorcycles	re thoughts on a yamaha seca turbo in a previous article howp skyfox says i was wondering if anybody knows anything about a yamaha seca turbo i m considering buying a used seca turbo for canadian us with km on the odo this will be my first bike any comments because of this i cannot in good faith recommend a seca turbo power delivery is too uneven for a novice the official tm dod newbie bike of choice would be more appropriate because the powerband is so wide and delivery is very smooth perfect for the beginner dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.motorcycles	re insect impacts i feel childish in article ppvds a seven up east sun com egreen east sun com writes in article rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes how do the helmetless do it um the same way people do it on horseback not as fast and they would probably enjoy eating bugs anyway every bit as fast as a dirtbike in the right terrain and we eat flies thank you who mentioned dirtbikes we re talking highway speeds here if you go mph on your dirtbike then feel free to contribute jeeps you re supposed to keep the windscreen up then why does it go down because it wouldn t be a jeep if it didn t a friend of mine just bought one and it has more warning stickers than those little wheelers i guess that s becuase it s a big wheeler anyway it s written in about ten places that the windshield should remain up at all times and it looks like they ve made it a pain to put it down anyway from what he says to be fair i do admit that it would be a similar matter to drive a windscreenless jeep on the highway as for bikers they may participate in this discussion but they re probably few and far between so i maintain that this topic is of interest primarily to bikers snow skis no bugs and most poeple who go fast wear goggles so do most helmetless motorcyclists notice how ed picked on the more insignificant the lower case part of the two parts of the statement besides around here it is quite rare to see bikers wear goggles on the street it s either full face with shield or open face with either nothing or aviator sunglasses my experience of bicycling with contact lenses and sunglasses says that non wraparound sunglasses do almost nothing to keep the crap out of ones eyes the question still stands how do cruiser riders with no or negligible helmets stand being on the highway at mph on buggy summer evenings helmetless goggleless ok ok fine whatever you say but lets make some attmept to stick to the point i ve been out on the road where i had to stop every half hour to clean my shield there were so many bugs and my jacket would be a blood splattered mess and i d see guys with shorty helmets no goggles long beards and tight t shirts merrily cruising along on bikes with no windscreens lets be really specific this time so that even ed understands does anbody think that splattering bugs with one s face is fun or are there other reasons to do it image laziness to make a point about freedom of bug splattering i ve bike like jody levine dod kv got a you can if you pf jody p levine hydro on ca ride it toronto ontario canada
rec.motorcycles	re drinking and riding eww gross in article mjmuise watstar uwaterloo ca mjmuise watstar uwaterloo ca mike muise writes hr drink for the first drinks hours drink for the next drinks hours drink for the rest in my case it goes down after the first four because the fifth one usually makes me throw up the last two needless to say i don t drink very much anymore as the last time that happened was in the second year of my undergrad i was a silly edu breath and pretty bad breath at that i ve bike like jody levine dod kv got a you can if you pf jody p levine hydro on ca ride it toronto ontario canada
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post in article ls v innjml earth cs utexas edu mcguire cs utexas edu tommy marcus mcguire writes obcountersteer for some reason i ve discovered that pulling on the wrong side of the handlebars rather than pushing on the other wrong side if you get my meaning provides a feeling of greater control for example rather than pushing on the right side to lean right to turn right hi lonny pulling on the left side at least until i get leaned over to the right feels more secure and less counter intuitive maybe i need psychological help i told a newbie friend of mine who was having trouble from the complicated explanations of his rider course to think of using the handlebars to lean not to turn push the right handlebar down or pull left up or whatever to lean right it worked for him he stopped steering with his tuchus i ve bike like jody levine dod kv got a you can if you pf jody p levine hydro on ca ride it toronto ontario canada
rec.motorcycles	riding jacket recommendations my old jacket is about to bite the dust so i m in the market for a new riding jacket i m looking for recommendations for a suitable replacement i would like to buy a full aerostich suit but i can t afford for it right now i m considering two basic options buy the aerostich jacket only dunno how much it costs due to recent price increases but i d imagine over that may be pushing my limit advantages include the fact that i can later add the pants and that it nearly eliminates the need for the jacket portion of a rainsuit buy some kind of leather jacket i like a few of the new hein gericke firstgear line however they may be a bit pricey unless i can work some sort of deal advantages of leather are potentially slightly better protection enhanced pose value we all know how important that is possibly cheaper than upper aerostich requirements for a jacket are that it must fit over a few other layers mainly a sizing thing if leather i d prefer a zip out lining it must have some body armor similar to aerostich elbows shoulders forearms possibly back kidney protection etc a reasonable amount of pocket space would be nice ventilation would be a plus however it must be wearable in cold weather below freezing with layers or perhaps electrics please fire away with suggestions comments etc steve steve andersen dod andersen me udel edu andersen zr ccm udel edu ducati i e yamaha srx life is simply a consequence of the complexities of carbon chemistry
rec.motorcycles	brake rotors cross drilling 
rec.motorcycles	re insect impacts in article apr rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes in article ppvds a seven up east sun com egreen east sun com writes in article rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes every bit as fast as a dirtbike in the right terrain and we eat flies thank you who mentioned dirtbikes we re talking highway speeds here if you go mph on your dirtbike then feel free to contribute obviously never rode a good or open class bike i am not paid to have an opinion dr speed suzuki gs g dod
rec.motorcycles	crappy honda cx hi i just have a small question about my bike being a fairly experienced bmw and mz mechanic i just don t know what to think about my honda she was using too much oil for the last km on my trip to daytona bike week this spring and all of a sudden she trailed smoke like hell and was running only on one cylinder i towed the bike home and took it apart but everything looks in perfect working order no cracks in the heads or pistons the cylinder walls look very clean and the wear of pistons and cylinders is not measurable all still within factory specs the only thing i could find however was a slightly bigger ring gap on the right cylinder the one with the problem but it is still way below the wear limit given in the clymer manual for this bike any syggestions what else could cause my problem do i have to hone the cylinder walls make them a little rougher in a criss cross pattern in order to get better breaking in of my new rings won t that increase the wear of my pistons please send comments to sruhl mechanical watstar uwaterloo ca thanks in advance stef stefan ruhl german exchange student don t poke into my privacy
rec.motorcycles	self insured was should liability insurance be required in article viking ponderous cc iastate edu viking iastate edu dan sorenson writes i get annoyed at insurance hence i m self insured above liability mandating that i play their game is silly if i ve a better game to play and everybody is still financially secure what s involved in getting bonded anyone know if that s an option recognized by nys dmv rod roderick sprattling no job too great no time too small sprattli azores crd ge com with feet to fire and back to wall
rec.motorcycles	bike for sale harley flhtc for sale harley flhtc liberty edition good condition many extras asking located in rhode island peter levine plevine ele uri edu
rec.motorcycles	re goldwing performance in article hpcc corp hp com gharriso hpcc corp hp com graeme harrison writes according to peter egan in the just released cycle world his flhs is a real dog when he pillions his lb wife all that money for a dog that doesn t defecate much but think of the mystique you are buying into for that extra k or more randy davis email randy megatek com zx pilot uunet ucsd megatek randy dod
rec.motorcycles	re tracing license plates of bdi cagers curtis jackson cjackson adobe com wrote the driver had looked over at me casually a couple of times i know he knew i was there oh okay then in that case it was attemped vehicular manslaughter he definitely wanted to kill you all cagers want to kill bikers that s the only explanation that i can think of hesh
rec.motorcycles	for sale husqvarna te for sale model husqvarna te enduro model year engine cc four stroke extras ignition for easy starting suspension by aftershock custom carbon fiber kevlar skid plate quick steering geometry stock epa legal and quiet exhaust system bark busters and hand guards motion pro clutch cable price contact denis concordel e mail denis apldbio com mabell work home i am selling my trusty husky hopefully to buy a husaberg this is a very good dirt bike and has been maintained perfectly i never had any problems with it it s a four stroke valves liquid cooled engine it is heavier than a stroke but still lighter than a honda xr and has a lot better suspension ohlins shock husky fork than the xr for the casual or non competitive rider the engine is much better than any two stroke you can easily lug up hills and blast through trails with minimum gear changes the ignition and the carefully tuned carburation makes this bike very easy to start starts of first kick when cold or hot there is a custom made carbon kevlar light pound wrap around skid plate to protect the engine cases and the water pump the steering angle has been reduced by degree to increase steering quickness this with the suspension tune up by phil douglas of aftershock multiple time isde rider gives it a better ride than most bike plush suspension responsive steering with no head shake so if it is such a good bike why sell it gee i want to buy a husaberg which just a husky but pounds lighter and a tad more
rec.motorcycles	thanks for the speeding ticket advice i d like to thank everyone who took the time to respond to my post about fighting my ticket many of you wrote to say that you have successfully fought and won your case in court others lost due to the cop outright lying to the judge about the circumstances surrounding your ticket while one fellow lost because the judge just didn t appear to be in the mood for such foolishness several of you suggested that i obtain a book called fight your ticket the general theme from those who said go for it was to be prepared i should do as much research as possible go back and review the scene transcribe what happened to tape or paper use any witnesses that may have been around have a list of questions to ask the cop and or the judge and to be positive and assertive i am innocent until proven guilty gulp a few people suggested trying to get my court date changed as this might trip up the arresting officer he may not show up if the date is on his day off or if he feels knows that he doesn t have a chance to win against you one individual stated that an officer could be an expert witness and if he says i was speeding then by damn i was speeding another says that i must have been paced or clocked with a radar gun lots of good suggestions and ideas from you all i ll let you know what happens after the big day peter d nesbitt air traffic controller pnesbitt mcimail com oakland bay tracon
rec.motorcycles	re mail order if you get good service from a shop or they regularly have merchandise in stock you need or they have a knowledgable and or friendly sales staff or if for whatever other reason you would like to do business with them which will in the aggrigate keep them in business and available to fill your future needs but they charge more for an item than another store you can usually purchase the item in the store of your choice and pay the lowest legitimate price being offered elsewhere sounds pretty lame to me let me see if i understand now your friends charge you extra just how much do you usually have to pay for a little friendliness seems like you re being serviced by some friendly sales people robert emmons never hesitate to sacrifice clarity calcshop inc and maintainability to save precious remmons holonet net picoseconds during program execution
rec.motorcycles	bmw r rally bbbbbbbb mm mm ww ww bb bb mm m m mm ww ww b b mm m m mm ww w ww bbbbbbbb mm m m mm ww w w ww bb bb mm m mm ww w w ww bb bb mm mm ww w w ww bbbbbbbb mm mm ww ww press release to all bmw riders subject rally time is here from bmw club of northern california bmw er rally may u s memorial day weekend san francisco bay area th annual bmw er rally sponsored by the bmw club of northern califronia will be held at the quincy california fairgrounds from may included in the pre registration fee at gate are star camping field events and trophies two dinners rally pin door prizes poker run vendor displays fun run english trials and live music playing throughout the weekend plus extras like hot showers tours a concourse d elegance and more this is first time in the er rally s year history that the event is being held in quincy and according to pat gardner rally chairman the er rally s continuing growth and the need for a larger and more complete facility led us to quincy plus we can get there on either of our two most favrite highways highway which goes through the feather river canyon or up from the south via the northernmost part of the gold country s highway day passes will not be available and non bmw rider must be a pre registered guest of a bmw rider the quincy fairgrounds is located on california state highway two miles south of downtown quincy for pre registration forms and additional information write doug hubbard bmw club of northern california norman court fremont ca or telephone us additional notes this is a not for profit event and riders do get their monies worth whether you ve ever attended a rally before or not this is the one to make the only problem has been that there are so many activities that attendees have to choose one over another quincy is a beautiful campground lots of grass and little dust for folks who have been to previous er rallies at mariposa quincy has lots of space all of it flat so room is not a problem there are buildings and such available if there is a change in the weather also the people of quincy are going all out to welcome us registration will begin on thursday of course there are always early arrivals who will show up monday or tuesday the registration fee pays for camping thursday through monday days there will be a tour friday with the main events beginning saturday sunday evening will be the awards ceremony for members of the various clubs club awards will be based on registration declaration of affilitation there will of course be the usual awards for oldest male and female rider betting needed to win and youngest rider they get cheater permits at and greatest distance one up two up and all the usual things
rec.motorcycles	re its still cold but in article apr linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes i tend to keep my bedroom window open during the winter and have woken up to find frost on my bedspread but i still get cold below about f usually on the part that sticks out of the bottom of my helmet maybe it s time to get a noj quiet rider cool i conjure up this image of bd in doonesbury so dean how long have you been sleeping with your helmet on rich bemben dod rbemben timewarp prime com triumph bonneville x fear not the evil men do in the name of evil but heaven protect us from the evil men do in the name of good
rec.motorcycles	re recommendation on duc i have a line on a ducati gts model with k on the clock runs very well paint is the bronze brown orange faded out leaks a bit of oil and pops out of st with hard accel the shop will fix trans and oil leak they sold the bike to the and only owner they want and i am thinking more like k any opinions out there please email me thanks it would be a nice stable mate to the beemer then i ll get a jap bike and call myself axis motors tuba irwin i honk therefore i am computrac richardson tx irwin cmptrc lonestar org dod r
rec.motorcycles	safe driving prcatices in article apr news columbia edu rdc cunixf cc columbia edu robert d castro writes in article rbpc d n netcom com rbp netcom com bob pasker writes cjackson adobe com curtis jackson writes my solution is never to ride next to a car the only thing between you and them is space keep as much as possible take this one step further never dilly dally in that rear of either side of a cage when you pass make it as positive as possible and if you can t pass fully at least make sure that if you attempt it you can make the driver aware of you by at least getting into his area of vision this also applies to merging into another lane after making a pass do it as positively as possible and what i try to do is look in the rear view and then over my shoulder and after i ve done that accelerate into the lane so that you have a speed cushion should you have missed seeing a potential bdi that s trying to do the same thing as you or worse ie he may have been behind you saw you made the pass successfully but you aren t going fast enough to suite him so he tries to go around you on the right ride with four eyes rich rich bemben dod rbemben timewarp prime com triumph bonneville x fear not the evil men do in the name of evil but heaven protect us from the evil men do in the name of good
rec.motorcycles	re april was re faq what is the dod in article hpfcso fc hp com jld hpfcso fc hp com jeff deeney writes in rec motorcycles viking iastate edu dan sorenson writes last year i believe it was jeff deeney posted what i ve since come to recognize as the ultimate april fools posting ever it wasn t particularly nice of him as several people were quite fooled and very worried about him but i can t fault the effectiveness based on numerous inputs most of them unprintable i deemed it time for a kinder gentler april not that i didn t have something really sick and twisted ready to post perhaps next year personally i think jeffy poo was still smarting more from the third degree burns he suffered after april st last year rather than the supposed burns that he suffered in the joke granted i was one of those people that were taken in by it and i was certainly concerned and then pissed at him for pulling such a thing which i made known to him but then again for an april fool joke i would also go on record as saying that it was the best orchestrated one i ve ever seen and it certainly sucked a lot of people into believing it sick twisted who in this group could ever be accused of such a thing i tip my twisted lid to thee jeffy rich bemben dod rbemben timewarp prime com triumph bonneville x fear not the evil men do in the name of evil but heaven protect us from the evil men do in the name of good
rec.motorcycles	observation re helmets grf dropped my shoei rf off the seat of my bike while trying to rock it onto it s centerstand chipped the heck out of the paint on it so i cheerfully spent on a bottle of testor s model paint and repainted the scratches and chips for minutes then while it was drying i realized that i was out of smokes and that my cage is not currently running so i had to take my bike down to the store not wanting to mess up my paint job i said well heck i can just use my old helmet this is your standard el cheapie openface i didn t notice a big difference when i switched to the shoei but switching back was really bad doesn t fit worth a damn too wide in the sides too short front to back with a faceplate it s still bloody windy with the shoei i normally ignore the face shield until i get up to about ish with this one taxiing to the end of the driveway was too smegging much wind the question for the day is re passenger helmets if you don t know for certain who s gonna ride with you like say you meet them at a church meeting yeah that s the ticket what are some guidelines should i just pick up another shoei in my size to have a backup helmet xl or should i maybe get an inexpensive one of a smaller size to accomodate my likely passenger
rec.motorcycles	re ggrrrrrr cages double parking motorcycles pisses me off in article castle ed ac uk wbg festival ed ac uk w geake writes the banana one isn t imho ultra sticky labels printed with your favourite curse are good even our local hospitals use them instead of wheel clamps putting one about a size on each window of the cage so what s your local hospital s favorite curse blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
rec.motorcycles	flashing anyone hello all on my bike i have hazard lights both front and back turn signals flash since i live in nj and commute to nyc there are a number of tolls one must pay on route just before arriving at a toll booth i switch the hazards on i do thisto warn other motorists that i will be taking longer than the seconds to make the transaction taking gloves off getting money out of coin changer pocket making transaction putting gloves back on takes a little more time than the average cager takes to make the same transaction of paying the toll i also notice that when i do this cagers tend to get the message and usually go to another booth my question is this a good bad thing to do any others tend to do the same just curious o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o rob castro email rdc cunixf cc columbia edu live for today kz ltd phone for today you live dod nyc new york new york usa rc tm
rec.motorcycles	re stolen aarghhhh in article apr microunity com ericm microunity com eric murray writes watch out often when some scumbag steals the cover that means that they were or are looking to steal the bike in my case i had a faded cover stolen off a bmw r rs that was stashed in an apartment carport and not visible from the street they evidently decided the beemer wasn t worth stealing but did try the next night to steal a honda hurricane parked in the next apartment building a neighbor heard them wheeling it out and called the cops i know this is just setting myself up but this is actually one of the things that is really good about bmw bikes from all accounts i ve heard practically no one steals bmws probably it is similar for moto guzzis and other relative exotics since there isn t a large demand for parts and the bike would be much easier to track down it seems that the most stolen bikes are harleys and cc jap sport bikes jonathan e polito internet jpolito encore com encore computer corp kildaire farm rd cary nc usa voice fax
rec.motorcycles	re bikes with big dogs in article apr galaxy gov bc ca bclarke galaxy gov bc ca writes in article apr cua edu wendel cua edu writes has anyone ever heard of a rider giving a big dog such as a great dane a ride on the back of his bike my dog would love it if i could ever make it work post of the month actually i ve seen riders carting around a pet dog in a sidecar a great dane on the back though sounds a bit hairy to me yeah i m sure that our lab would love a ride he s the type that sticks his head out car windows but i didn t think that he would enjoy being bungee corded to the gas tank and lbs or squirming beast is a bit much for a backpack ok who s done it i ve bike like jody levine dod kv got a you can if you pf jody p levine hydro on ca ride it toronto ontario canada
rec.motorcycles	v max handling request hello there ican anyone who has handson experience on riding the yamaha v max pls kindly comment on its handling
rec.motorcycles	re motorcycle detailing tip in article apr bnr ca mbeaving bnr ca writes don t you just hate when the speedo and tach on your bike start to cloud over from all that nasty sunshine the detailing tip of the week is to use rubbing compound moisten a rag apply some rubbing compound and work into the translucent previously transparent material after a few minutes of working on the plastic face the dial or plastic face will be clear once more will not work for glass a couple of other tips make a habit of parking the bike so that instruments are facing away from the sun meguiar s mirror glaze plastic polish plastic cleaner cue canned product plug roise sumax seattleu edu linda roise writes ok for a novice question is there anything that will clean a face shield and also remove abrasions so that one can see through it better what you want are meguiar s mirror glaze plastic polish and plastic cleaner they are very mild abrasives meant to remove scratches from plastic for fine scratches just use the polish for bigger ones start with the cleaner and finish with the polish the stuff is bucks per bottle at most auto or motorcycle parts stores don t choke over the price too much since both bottles will probably last you years the stuff works great on plastic watch crystals and compact discs too blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
rec.motorcycles	hard copy hot pursuit yo did anybody see this run of hard copy i guy on a katana got pulled over by the police i guess for speeding or something but just as the cop was about to step out of the car the dude punches it down an interstate in georgia ang then the cop gives chase now this was an interesting episode because it was all videotaped everything from the dramatic takeoff and mph chase to the sidestreet battle at about mph what happened at the end the guy who is being relentless chased down box the cage with the disco lights slows a couple of times to taunt the cop after blowing a few stop signs and making car jump to the side he goes up a dead end street the kat although not the latest machine is still a high performance machine and he slams on the brakes of couse we all know that cages especially the ones with the disco lights can t stop as fast as our high performance machines so what happens the cage plows into the kat luckily for this dude he was wearing a helmet and was not hurt but dude how crazy can you get yeah we ve all went out and played cat and mouse with our friends but with a cop how crazy can you get it took just one look at a zx who tried this crap to convince me not to try any shit like that although the dude collided with a car head on at mph the kawasaki team colors still looked good just a few scratches like no front end inch long engine and other minor scratches if you guys are out there please slow it down i not being an advocate for the cages especially the ones that make that annoying ass noises but just think the next time you punched it whether you have an all mighty zx or a i can do it ninja just remember a kid could step out at any time peace ride kinda safe warren have suzuki will travel wcd uxa cso uiuc edu what s the big deal about riding one of these i m only going annie robotech
rec.motorcycles	re wanted advice on cb custom purchase in article apr linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes in article apr acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes my mechanic once commented that the dual range transmission was pure junk one mans opinion i had a friend in pittsburgh who had a cb c with the dual range tranny on it he usually only used the economy range to get an overdrive sixth gear out of it he had miles on it when it was stolen it was recovered shortly after that repaired and for all i know it s still going strong the cb c was a shaft driven overbore version of the cb and was made for exactly one year yep head and base gaskets are very expensive helluva bike a data point chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	re tangentially re live free but quietly or die in article apr rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes impertinent stuff deleted am i showing my canadian university ness here of does anyone else know what i m talking about i ve bike like jody levine dod kv got a you can if you pf jody p levine hydro on ca ride it toronto ontario canada there you go again you edu breath poser university ness indeed leave that stuff to us professionals henry prange biker professional edu breath physiology iu sch med blgtn dod bmwmoa gsi ride r gs rx conv cage explorer cage the unifying trait of our species is the relentless pursuit of folly hypocrisy is the only national religion of this country
rec.motorcycles	re boom hubcap attack in article speedy engr latech edu speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer writes i was attacked by a rabid hubcap once i was going to work on a yamaha twin a k a the vibrating tank when i heard a wierd noise off to my left i caught a glimpse of something silver headed for my left foot and jerked it up about a nanosecond before my bike was hit hard in the left side when i went to put my foot back on the peg i found that it was not there i pulled into the nearest parking lot and discovered that i had been hit by a wire wheel type hubcap from a large cage this hubcap weighed about pounds the impact had bent the left peg flat against the frame and tweeked the shifter in the process had i not heard the approaching cap i feel certian that i would be sans a portion of my left foot anyone else had this sort of experience not with a hub cap but one of those lumber yard delivery trucks made life interesting when he hit a dip in the road and several sheets of sheetrock and a dozen gallon cans of spackle came off at mph it got real interesting for about seconds or so had to use a wood mallet to get all the dried spackle off me the helmet and the bike when i got home thanks to the bob tail kenworth between me and the lumber truck i had a path to drive through he made with his tires and threw up the corresponding monsoon from those tires as he ran over what ever cans of spackle didn t burst in impact a car in front of me in the right lane hit her brakes did a and nailed a bridge abutment half way through the second the messiest time was in san diego in was on my way back to the apartment in ocean beach on my sportster and had just picked up a shake burger n fries from jack in the box and stuffed em in my foul weather jacket when the milk shake opened up on nimitz blvd at mph nothing like the smell of vanilla milk shake cooking on the engine as it runs down your groin and legs and people waiting in back of you to make the same left turn you are there are only two types of ships in the navy submarines and targets xs lh dod next raise richard pierson e vnet internet fist iscp bellcore com uunet uunet bcr fist include std disclaimer my opinions are my own i don t shop in malls i buy my jeans jackets and ammo in the same store
rec.motorcycles	re boom hubcap attack in a previous article speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer says i was attacked by a rabid hubcap once i was going to work on a yamaha twin a k a the vibrating tank when i heard a wierd noise off to my left i caught a glimpse of something silver headed for my left foot and jerked it up about a nanosecond before my bike was hit hard in the left side when i went to put my foot back on the peg i found that it was not there i pulled into the nearest parking lot and discovered that i had been hit by a wire wheel type hubcap from a large cage this hubcap weighed about pounds the impact had bent the left peg flat against the frame and tweeked the shifter in the process had i not heard the approaching cap i feel certian that i would be sans a portion of my left foot hmmmm i wondered where that hubcap went dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.motorcycles	re v max handling request in a previous article ba ntuvax ntu ac sg says hello there ican anyone who has handson experience on riding the yamaha v max pls kindly comment on its handling you re kidding right this is flame bait in the extreme v max handling har har har har dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.motorcycles	contact person for boots would anyone out there in dodland be able to help me out in giving me a contact to purchase a pair of military air borne combat boots d in size these boots so i have read here on rec moto are calf height boots that use only velcro for enclosure i have phoned around and nobody seems to carry such an item i admit i have not gone into the deepest bowels of nyc yet for the search but i have made some calls to several of the bigger army navy type stores with no luck anyone out there know of a place that does carry such an item as well as does mail order any help would be appreciated o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o rob castro email rdc cunixf cc columbia edu live for today kz ltd phone for today you live dod nyc new york new york usa rc tm o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o
rec.motorcycles	re hard copy hot pursuit in a previous article wcd uxa cso uiuc edu daniel warren c says yo did anybody see this run of hard copy no i don t watch that bu sh t the kat although not the latest machine is still a high performance machine and he slams on the brakes of couse we all know that cages especially the ones with the disco lights can t stop as fast as our high performance machines so what happens the cage plows into the kat so does this mean the cop is at fault for rear ending the bike you know following too closely and reckless driving dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.motorcycles	re v max handling request in article apr ntuvax ntu ac sg ba ntuvax ntu ac sg writes hello there ican anyone who has handson experience on riding the yamaha v max pls kindly comment on its handling i ve ridden one twice it was designed to be a monster in a straight line which it is it has nothing on an fzr in the corners in fact it just didn t handle that well at all in curves but hey that s not what it was designed to do my two cents alan
rec.motorcycles	re rejetting carbs mark kromer on the thu apr gmt wibbled in an article rtaraz bigwpi ramin taraz wrote does the amount of exhaust allowed to leave the engine through the exhaust pipe make that much of a difference the amount of air fuel mixture that a cylender sucks in tries to suck in depends on the speed of the piston when it goes down and the pressure in the cylinder at the end of the exhaust stroke with a poor exhaust system this pressure may be above atmospheric with a pipe that scavenges well this may be substantially below atmospheric this effect will vary with rpm depending on the tune of the pipe some pipes combined with large valve overlap can actually reverse the intake flow and blow mixture out of the carb when outside the pipes effective rev range now my question is which one provides more resistence as far as the engine is conserned resistance that the exhaust provides or the resistance that results from the bike trying to push itself and the rider two completely different things the state of the pipe determines how much power the motor can make the load of the bike determines how much power the motor needs to make v ark fzr pilot zx payload rd mechanic you re welcome well i for one am so very glad that i have fuel injection all those needles and orifices and venturi and pressures it s worse than school human biology reproduction lessons sex always made me feel a bit queasy nick the simple minded biker dod concise oxford tube rider m lud nick pettefar contractor large currently incarcerated at bnr maidenhead the united kingdom npet bnr ca bmw k rs kay pres pbwasoh uk bs
rec.motorcycles	re should liability insurance be required in article tcora b gator pica army mil tcora pica army mil tom coradeschi writes in article apr walter bellcore com fist iscp bellcore com richard pierson wrote lets get this no fault stuff straight i lived in nj when nf started my rates went up alot moved to pa and my rates went down alot the nf came to pa and it was a different story if you are sitting in a parking lot having lunch or whatever and someone wacks you guess whose insurance pays for it give up yours bzzzt if it is the other driver s fault your insurance co pays you less deductible then recoups the total cost from the other guy gal s company there s a fancy word for it which escapes me right now and pays you the deductible or you can go to the other guy gal s company right off just takes longer to get your cash as opposed to state farm who cut me a check today on the spot for the damage to my wife s cage the word is subrogation seems to me if you re willing to wait for the money from scumbag s insurance that you save having to pay the deductible however if scumbag s insurance is scum insurance then you may have to pay the deductible to get your insurance co s pack of rabid large fanged lawyers to recover the damages from scum insurance s lawyers sad but true call it job security for lawyers later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	re bikes with big dogs in article apr cua edu wendel cua edu writes has anyone ever heard of a rider giving a big dog such as a great dane a ride on the back of his bike my dog would love it if i could ever make it work thanks wendel cua edu on the back might be tricky but here in boulder there is a guy that can always be seen with his golden retriever in the sidecar of course the dog is always wearing wwii style goggles no joke nick coburn dod ama cbr cbr coburnn spot colorado edu
rec.motorcycles	re ducati opinions wanted frankb sad hp com frank ball writes godfrey digiorgi ramarren apple com wrote the ducati model is essentially a reduced displacement which means it weighs the same and is the same size as the with far less power it is produced specifically to meet a vehicle tax restriction in certain markets which makes it commercially viable it s not sold in the us where it is unneeded and unwanted as such it s somewhat large and overweight for its motor it will still handle magnificently it just won t be very fast there are very few other flaws to mention the limited steering lock is the annoyance noted by most testers and the mirrors aren t perfect the ducati model is essentially a reduced displacement which means it weighs the same and is the same size as the with far less nope it s lbs lightrer than the power and less brakes a single disk that is quite impressive with two fingers on the lever much to beth s horror i lifted the rear wheel about in a fine randy mamola impression as such it s somewhat large and overweight for its motor it will still handle magnificently it just won t be very fast there are i have a feeling that it s going to be fast enough that beth will give a few liter bike riders fits in the future very few other flaws to mention the limited steering lock is the the steering locks are adjustable annoyance noted by most testers and the mirrors aren t perfect beth sees fine out of them i see of them filled with black leather concours sophisticated lady tom dietrich cc sportster ol sport for sale dod sr spike the garage rat ama queued for an m fssnoc two jousts and a gather big fun kspt ma bell cool as a rule but sometimes e mail txd able mkt com com h lewis disclaimer com takes no responsibility for opinions preceding this
rec.motorcycles	dot tire date codes i just mailed this i noticed a in long cut in the tread of the rear tire on my vfr the cut is only about as deep as the tread block and looks like it only scratched the rubber at the base but the weird thing is it s way over on the edge where i haven t scuffed the tire in yet my questions are how dangerous is this should i replace the tire right away and if i should since the cut is on the unscuffed portion and the tire only has about mi on it what do you think my chances of getting it replaced under warranty are to the nedod mailing list and jack tavares suggested i check out how old the tire is as one tactic for getting it replaced does anyone have the file on how to read the date codes handy thanks dean dean cookson dcookson mitre org dod ama the mitre corp burlington rd bedford ma kotnml kotb the road is my shepherd and i shall not stop vfr f sam eliott road hogs mtv bianchi limited
rec.motorcycles	re fat boy versus zx new math in article pimfd cre agate berkeley edu robinson cogsci berkeley edu michael robinson writes in article c v s mcz ccu umanitoba ca klinger ccu umanitoba ca jorg klinger writes in apr bnr ca npet bnr ca nick pettefar writes manual velcro on the mar wibbled but is greater than or is greater than or no is the best of all no no no it should be obvious that is the best number by far last year was hot but with the improvements to this year there can be no question hell my dad used to have an old that would beat out today s without breaking a sweat well in the twisties anyway this year s is just too cumbersome for practical use in anything other than repeating decimals remember the good old days when hexadecimals and even binaries were still legal sure they smoked a little blue stuff out the pipes but i had a hex that could slaughter any decimal on the road sigh such nostalgia regards charles dod rz within the span of the last few weeks i have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person
rec.motorcycles	re drinking and riding in article c wkbp b w eskimo com maven eskimo com norman hamer writes what is a general rule of thumb for sobriety and cycling couple hours after you feel sober what or should i just work with if i drink tonight i don t ride until tomorrow interesting discussion i limit myself to one standard serving of alcohol if i m going to ride and mostly unless the alcohol is something special fine ale good wine or someone else s vsop i usually just don t drink any but then alcohol just isn t really important to me mainly for financial reasons at least one of the magazines claims to follow the aviation guideline of no alcohol whatsoever within hrs of riding a company bike don t remember which mag though it was a few years ago regards charles hicc dod rz within the span of the last few weeks i have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person
rec.motorcycles	re for johs dhhalden no last un wvnvms wvnet edu writes ducati uue quuncd ver by theodore a kaldis begin cut here cut here part mg nh c m av i nyr h v x e afkin apyt c li t this gif was great i have it as the backdrop on my apollo thingy and many people stop by and admire it of course i tell them that i did it myself it s far too much trouble to contact archive sites to get stuff like this so if anybody else has any good gifs please please don t hesitate to post them is the bra thing still going nick the idiot biker dod concise oxford no bras m lud nick pettefar contractor large currently incarcerated at bnr maidenhead the united kingdom npet bnr ca bmw k rs kay pres pbwasoh uk bs
rec.motorcycles	re camping question sanjay sinha on the apr gmt wibbled thanks to everyone who posted in my previous quest for camping info another question well not strictly r m stuff i am looking for a thermos flask to keep coffee hot i mean real hot of course it must be the unbreakable type so far what ever metal type i have wasted money on has not matched the vacuum glass type any info appreciated sanjay back in my youth ahem the wiffy and moi purchased a gadget which heated up water from a v source it was for car use but we thought we d try it on my rd b it worked ok apart from one slight problem we had to keep the revs above any lower and the motor would die from lack of electron movement it made for interesting cups of coffee anyhow we would plot routes that contained straights of over three miles so that we had sufficient time to get the water to boiling point this is sometimes difficult in england good luck on your quest nick the biker dod concise oxford m lud nick pettefar contractor large currently incarcerated at bnr maidenhead the united kingdom npet bnr ca bmw k rs kay pres pbwasoh uk bs
rec.motorcycles	re why are there no turbocharged motorbikes in north america in article apr skyfox howp skyfox writes i just got to thinking why don t manufacturers still make bikes with turbos etc because they add a lot of expense and complexity and make for a less reliable and less controllable bike as an extreme example the cx turbo cost as much as a mike hailwood replica ducati david edmondson davide dcs qmw ac uk queen mary westfield college dod guzzi le mans this means the end of the horse drawn zeppelin
rec.motorcycles	re what is it with cats and dogs james bessette jimbes cbnewsj cb att com wrote in article hplsla hp com kens hplsla hp com ken snyder writes ps i also heard from a dog breeder that the chains of bicycles and motorcycles produced high frequency squeaks that dogs loved to chase ask the breeder why they also chase bmws also cam chain mike mike mitten gnome pd org emory pd org gnome ama dod irony is the spice of life bianchi backstreet suzuki gs gl the revolution will not be televised
rec.motorcycles	re boom hubcap attack from speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer i was attacked by a rabid hubcap once i was going to work on a yamaha twin a k a the vibrating tank when i heard a wierd noise off to my left i caught a glimpse of something silver headed for my left foot and jerked it up about a nanosecond before my bike was hit hard in the left rest deleted anyone else had this sort of experience dod technician dr speed not student stolen taglines god is real unless declared integer i came i saw i deleted all your files black holes are where god is dividing by zero the world will end in minutes please log out earth is full please delete anyone you can actually hubcap attacks are fairly common most cagers being too incompetant to reinstall them properly after changing tires or to check them after collisions luckily few are as heavy as the one that got you al moore dod don t forget the immortal swap file read error you lose your mind
rec.motorcycles	re gpz runs like a bitch i tried mailing you but your domain seems not to exist can t even get sinet slb com to admit to knowing about geco anyway here we go in article q kq innjl griffin orpington sgp slb com you wrote subject gpz runs like a bitch anyone have a cure for sub zero running probs on a gpz anything below revs and the bike wants to cut out all the time the recommended cure in the bike mags seems to be to switch off the engine for a minute to thaw the ice but this is obviously not mutch of a cure mine has had the kawasaki heated carb mod but the problem persists i ve covered the rad which makes the bike run warmer and moves the problem down the temp scale a degree or two has anyone tried a dynojet kit on the or getting desperate different carbs or the fuel injection off the gpz have you talked to kawasaki maybe they did another version of the upgrade kit got to be worth a phone call did you do the carb mod or did you buy it secondhand from someone who said that it had been done is that orpington in kent if so have you heard of the ogri mailing list which i run its an email list for bikers in the uk and interested parties available live or as a daily digest let me know if you want to subscribe good luck dave david edmondson davide dcs qmw ac uk queen mary westfield college dod guzzi le mans this means the end of the horse drawn zeppelin
rec.motorcycles	where can i afford a goldwing mirror searched without luck for a faq here i need a left aspencade mirror and honda wants for it now if this were another piece of chrome to replace the black plastic that wings come so liberally supplied with i might be able to see that silly price but a mirror is a piece of safety equipment the fact that honda clearly places concern for their profits ahead of concern for my safety is enough to convince me that this my third wing will likely be my last in the mean time anyboby have a non ripoff source for a mirror keith smith keith hydra unm edu
rec.motorcycles	latest socal rides southern california ridelist please send me any updates to this ride list remember only street rides that are open to all bikers are posted please inc phone for further info also send me your e mail address if you want mailed copies of this list i suggest calling first to make sure that info is current if you find out further info please let me know i strive for accuracy but cannot be responsible for errors e mail address paulb harley tti com c d coffee donuts mx live music f d food drinks available changes since last posting address at end of posting apr th annual laughlin nv river run rides to the run from points all over socal concerts poker runs parties etc etc this is sponsored by the southern calif harley dealer assoc but all bikes are welcome reservations are only at any socal harley dealer river run hr hotline discount room reservations or concert tix tues sat a noon p apr nd annual racing memorabilia show sale art prints photos lithos models books apr scma route tour apr scma trac a gypsy tour a in santa monica john lane apr tax time run for the money abate pins prizes games f d raffles free if you join s in a v twin city brea canyon rd walnut manny apr rd annual gwta loma linda children s hospital benefit run free c d start hot dogs etc finish s in a skip fordyce motors indiana ave riverside apr mma state overnighter frazier park or apr nd yuma prison run mailin gate camping or apr paso robles clean sober run paso robles fairgrounds apr shamrock s rd annual scenic byways tour starts routes s in a simi valley honda l a ave or cycles parts w baseline san bernadino picnic bbq lake hughes apr mra chap e poker run a american legion south d st peris steve hill may ama grand nat l dirt track series race pomona fairplex or may kpfk s fm centerstand radio show and the car show will broadcast live from autobooks etc w magnolia av burbank carshow starts noonb centerstand pm may abate poker run east end of bucklin park imperial valley s in a includes food entertainment barbara may pmc th annual greenhorn tour or may song dog ranch spring rally overnight camping at this famousmotorcycle campground mx all you can eat or drink bbq dinner sunday bkfst person reserve by april song dog ranch rt new cuyama n of ojai keep trying this number may bsa owner s club spring ride castaic landing may album release celebration helmet laws suck by billy gordon the blue rockers la vida hot springs to n to lambert east miles on left special guests mx raffle may st annual spring round up rodeo abate many bike games f d pins raffle s in starts a games noon ea couple free if you join robbies restaurant hwy btwn perris lake elsinore george or susan allen or melanie may mc swap meet orange county fairgnds costa mesa may la cnty mc swap meet may christian m c assn socal rally first assembly of god church nisqually rd victorville bob quintard may mother s with the most may th annual mc awareness day abate p american legion hall gardena bl crnr normandie gardena mx vendors raffles games etc free w pin f d doc or carol or dieter may blue knights th annual benefit ride starts cycle parts west san diego harold crosby may run for the wall la to dc lv a or a from ta truck stop where i i meet in ontario camping motels available at each night s stop rides ends up at the vietnam veterans memorial wall in washington dc bikes are expected to meet there call rod coffey alt info send p h to john anderson deer creek way paso robles ca or call him may long beach mc parts exchange lb veterans memorial stadium may us mc jamboree tulare cnty fairgnds tulare ride in mc show benefit poker run sun mx raffles games starts noon on friday under free for under may blazing saddles tour scma may ariel owners club annual event greenfield ave la chuck walton jun fun in the sun ride mma bakersfield jun class act tour jun silver eagles run palomar san diego jun ventura swap show by the shop ventura fairgnds jun rd annual summer solstice poker run pig feed abate ea couple free if you join pig roast games raffles mx swimming pins s in a swallows inn i ortega hwy san juan capistrano earl rick jun mma s bike fest mariposa fairgrounds hwy to hwy e go miles mx camping available trade show f d games advance gate info tix jun hope house benefit run scma jul bike show accessories unltd jul abate christmas in july jul beach ride to benefit the exceptional children s foundation jul abate old timers poker run jul th annual unicoastal ride and joust starts all over the west coast and goes to pine glen campground near mammoth lakes for a or day weekend of fun with the usenet personalities your fond of flaming to get on the mail list contact joust request harley tti com jul iron horse poker run jul nd annual national ride to work day jul quaff m c mt palomar th annual overnighter la jolla campgrounds jul th annual summer food run abate jul mc swap meet orange county fairgnds costa mesa aug accessories unltd ride aug hot august nights poker run aug tour scma area b aug song dog ranch summer rally overnight camping at this famous motorcycle campground classical mx all you can eat or drink bbq dinner sunday bkfst person reserve by aug song dog ranch rt new cuyama n of ojai keep trying this number aug vets benefit run trac a aug mma chicken roast camarillo park sep th annual flags classic juarez mexico to southern alberta canada person received by frank weed or try sep abate s golden state rendezvous a fri noon mon mid state fairgrounds paso robles sep iron horse rocket run sep black gold poker run taft mc sep redwood run sep bonanza tour shamrocks oct mc swap meet orange county fairgnds costa mesa oct song dog ranch fall rally overnight camping at this famous motorcycle campground mx all you can eat or drink bbq dinner sunday bkfst person reserve by oct song dog ranch rt new cuyama n of ojai keep trying this number oct scma grand tour oct easyriders motorcycle rodeo antelope valley fairgrounds hwy n to ave i exit right lancaster oct nd annual griffith park sidecar rally mineral springs area of the park doug bingham oct mra chap e ride nov love ride to benefit the muscular dystrophy assoc sponsored by glendale h d san fernando rd glendale nov toy key run scma area b nov mc awareness day abate nov accessories unlimited posse ride dec mc swap meet orange county fairgnds costa mesa dec hathaway children s center toy run ongoing events notices hd swap meet show santa fe springs drive in alondra blvd p rd thurs ea mo fee note that in april it was moved to free seminars every saturday luftmeister inc long beach tune in centerstand a radio program for motorcyclists every saturday from pm on kpfk fm parents w out partners mc club meets nd sat a at cocos brea rd colina road in diamondbar a new mc club for women only is forming diamonds and pearls marc motorcycling amateur radio club meets a nd sat denny s e th st santa ana net p weds on info ray or bonnie addresses follows camp from or fwy go north on azusa ave hwy to east fork rd go miles east to camp hint look for bridge accessories unlimited lyons ave at i newhall cycle parts west beach blvd westminister
rec.motorcycles	bmwmoa controversy in article rider uucp joe rider cactus org writes vech ra msstate edu craig a vechorik writes good ol boys that have been there too long while i agree with you that the current board is garbage voting you in would simply be trading one form of trash for another do the opponents of your selections get equal time yo joe why don t you post what you really think if there are any rational bmwmoa folks left out there may the rest of us please have a brief summary of the current state of affairs in your esteemed organization together with an historical outline of how you got to the above contretemps points will be deducted for shouting or bulging veins in the temple area pete ahrens
rec.motorcycles	re ggrrrrrr cages double parking motorcycles pisses me off in article lsp mginnud cash cs utexas edu mcguire cs utexas edu tommy marcus mcguire writes however this has nothing to do with motorcycling unless you consider the vw a bike however this has nothing to do with motorcycling unless you consider the amazona a bike keith hanlan keithh bnr ca bell northern research ottawa canada
rec.motorcycles	re bmw battery keith hanlan on the wed apr gmt wibbled in article apr ra msstate edu vech ra msstate edu craig a vechorik writes if i remember correctly the reason that bmw s come with those expensive and relatively worthless short lived varda batteries is cause bmw owns a controling interest in that battery manufacturer what s wrong with the bmw battery i ve never had problems and i know numerous people that are still using the original battery in there year old beemers kay my k rs still has her original battery in she s ok nick the sufficiently well charged biker dod concise oxford m lud nick pettefar contractor large currently incarcerated at bnr maidenhead the united kingdom npet bnr ca bmw k rs kay pres pbwasoh uk bs
rec.motorcycles	re why are there no turbocharged motorbikes in north america in article c j n hy dcs qmw ac uk davide dcs qmw ac uk dave edmondson writes as an extreme example the cx turbo cost as much as a mike hailwood replica ducati so if i can scrounge up a good looking cx turbo will someone trade me an mhr duc for it jeff earls jearls tekig pen tek com dod kottg kotspt wmtc ama fj millennium falcon squid factor klr thumpy hit the button chewie han solo there ain t nothin like a mph sweeper in the idaho rockies me
rec.motorcycles	re uh der whassa deltabox in article unisql uucp ray unisql uucp ray shea writes can someone tell me what a deltabox frame is and what relation that has if any to the frame on my hawk gt that way next time some guy comes up to me in some parking lot and sez hey dude nice bike is that a deltabox frame on there i can say something besides duh er huh deltabox tm is a registered trademark of yamaha used to describe their aluminum perimeter frame design used on the fzr and fzr in cross section it has a five sided appearance so it probably really should be called a pentabox dave tharp dod you can t wear out davet interceptor cds tek com mra an indian scout k s indian chief ahrma or its brother the chief r s tr b ama they re built like rocks r velorex nsu max to take the knocks bmw r compulsive it s the harleys that my employer has no idea joiner give you grief
rec.motorcycles	re motorcycle security i saw his bike parked in front of a bar a few weeks later without the dog and i wandered in to find out what had happened he said somebody stole m damn dog they left the harley behind dave tharp dod you can t wear out davet interceptor cds tek com mra an indian scout k s indian chief ahrma or its brother the chief r s tr b ama they re built like rocks r velorex nsu max to take the knocks bmw r compulsive it s the harleys that my employer has no idea joiner give you grief
rec.motorcycles	tickets advice is worth what you paid i can t think of another subject that generates as much contradictory advice as traffic laws and their enforcement everybody s got an opinion and is dead certain they are right yet acurate information is extremely difficult to come by the dmv doesn t know cops don t know your traffic school instructor doesn t know the vehicle code only tells part of the story judges choose to interpret the laws in a wide variety of ways and the public at large i seldom hear any advice that doesn t disagree with something i ve experienced if you don t believe me i suggest you get a copy of the vehicle code study it and then sit in on a day or two of court and see what really happens read fight your ticket too but don t miss the little section at the end where it says your chances are lousy and you re basically screwed as you may have guessed i m pretty down on the system here in california i ve carefully prepared for court bringing witnesses and revealing serious holes in the officer s story only to be slapped with the maximum allowable fine plus assessments of over the message clear that the judge does not appreciate john q public trying his own cases so here s my advice when you find yourself with a ticket take traffic school if you can if it s a serious matter get a lawyer a lawyer can present the exact same case as you the difference is the sentence paul thompson apple computer
rec.motorcycles	re bike sold over net miles away in article hplsla hp com kens hplsla hp com ken snyder writes any other bikes sold long distances out there i d love to hear about it i bought my vfr from a guy in san jose via the net that s miles according to my odometer mark andy living in pittsburgh bought his rz from a dude in massachusetts or was it connecticut axel
rec.motorcycles	re observation re helmets in article mavenry altcit eskimo com maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer writes the question for the day is re passenger helmets if you don t know for certain who s gonna ride with you like say you meet them at a church meeting yeah that s the ticket what are some guidelines should i just pick up another shoei in my size to have a backup helmet xl or should i maybe get an inexpensive one of a smaller size to accomodate my likely passenger if your primary concern is protecting the passenger in the event of a crash have him or her fitted for a helmet that is their size if your primary concern is complying with stupid helmet laws carry a real big spare you can put a big or small head in a big helmet but not in a small one ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re dot tire date codes in rec motorcycles cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes to the nedod mailing list and jack tavares suggested i check out how old the tire is as one tactic for getting it replaced does anyone have the file on how to read the date codes handy it s quite simple the code is the week and year of manufacture rich sturges h nswc carderock division w i speak for no one else and listen to the same
rec.motorcycles	re bike sold over net miles away in article hplsla hp com kens hplsla hp com ken snyder writes any other bikes sold long distances out there i d love to hear about it i bought my moto guzzi from a univ of va grad student in charlottesville last spring mark cervi cervi oasys dt navy mil w dod mgnoc moto guzzi sp ii what kinda bikes that a moto guzzi what s that its italian mark cervi carderockdiv nswc code annapolis md cervi oasys dt navy mil w
rec.motorcycles	re bikes and contacts in article apr skcla monsanto com mpmena skcla monsanto com writes michael manning must be that blockhead of yours the gargoyles are the only thing that work for me michael menard p s when you showin up at highland house we ll compare sunglasses let s see how the weather is saturday or sunday it sucks today what time is good you re welcome to give any of the ones i have a try as for the gargoyles if you want mine you can have em i think the bridge of my nose holds them too far from my face same deal for the two of my friends who tried them for people who use them with a full face helmet all bets are off sorry if they fit you well and took my complaint personally yes the oakleys are much more desirable squid attire also the gargoyles aren t that ugly even in my opinion or i wouldn t have tried them michael manning mmanning icomsim com nextmail accepted flstf fatboy ducati ss
rec.motorcycles	re bikes contacts lenses radial keratotomy in article c fi h ew rice edu jcn rice edu writes i was going to try radial keratotomy but they want over per eye that s a lot of contact lenses and sunglasses and a lot of money if they make one tiny mistake o jeff nichols also if they don t get it exactly right or your eyes change again contacts to correct for it are out of the question this is due to the strange conical shape your cornea takes after the surgery michael manning mmanning icomsim com nextmail accepted flstf fatboy ducati ss
rec.motorcycles	re ducati opinions wanted in article qhm mbs news ysu edu albion h bowers ak yfn ysu edu writes oh yeah at mph in the quarter is such a slug come on when was the last time you used your s max power peak i think maybe you should ride one first before passing judgement there is a lot more than just maximum acceleration i really didn t mean to imply that my ninja was any better than a duc i have to talked to a few duc owners ss owners in particular who say that the power is something less than overwhelming that said i would love to have a ss i guess i should have been a bit more specific if you have something that weighs that same as the go for the extra cubes i think that fact that i own a gtv shows that i don t care about maximum power it s no slug though to the exclusion of everything else the note and the handling are more important to me i just bought a ninja because i couldn t afford a duc didn t mean to ruffle any feathers i ll probably be getting a ss next year mark mark s burnham markb wc novell com ama dod alfa romeo gtv ninja
rec.motorcycles	re rejetting carbs in article jburney hydra nodc noaa gov jburney hydra nodc noaa gov jeff burney writes if we are only talking about stroke i think i can understand exhaust pulse affect in a stroke the intake valve is closed on the exhaust stroke and the gas is pushed out by the cyclinder i guess there is some gas compression that may affect the amount pushed out but the limiting factor seems to be the header pipe and not the canister meaning would gases so far down the line the canister really have an effect on the exhaust stroke do the gases really compress that much for discussion purposes i will ignore dynamic effects like pulses in the exhaust pipe and try to paint a useful mental picture unless an engine is supercharged the pressure available to force air into the intake tract is atmospheric at the time the intake valve is opened the pressure differential available to move air is only the difference between the combustion chamber pressure left over after the exhaust stroke and atmospheric as the piston decends on the intake stroke combustion chamber pressure is decreased allowing atmospheric pressure to move more air into the intake tract at no time does the pressure ever become negative or even approach a good vacuum at the time of the exhaust valve closing the pressure in the combustion chamber is essentially the pressure of the exhaust system up to the first major flow restriction the muffler note that the volume of gas that must flow through the exhaust is much larger than the volume that must flow through the intake because of the temperature difference and the products of combustion in the last years the japanese manufacturers have started paying attention to exhaust and intake tuning in pursuit of almighty horsepower at this point in time on high performance bikes substitution of an aftermarket free flow air filter will have almost zero affect on performance because the stock intake system flows very well anyway substitution of an aftermarket exhaust system will make very little difference unless in general the new exhaust system is much louder than the stocker on older bikes exhaust back pressure was the dominating factor if free flowing air filters were substituted very little difference was noted unless a free flowing exhaust system was installed as well in general an engine can be visualized as an air pump at any given rpm anything that will cause the engine to pump more air be it on the intake or exhaust side will cause it to produce more horsepower pumping more air will require recalibration rejetting of the carburetor dave tharp dod you can t wear out davet interceptor cds tek com mra an indian scout k s indian chief ahrma or its brother the chief r s tr b ama they re built like rocks r velorex nsu max to take the knocks bmw r compulsive it s the harleys that my employer has no idea joiner give you grief
rec.motorcycles	re drinking and riding personally i follow the no alcohol rule when i m on a bike my view is that you have to be in such a high degree of control that any alcohol could be potentially hazardous to my bike if i get hurt it s my own fault but i don t want to wreck my katana i developed this philosophy from an impromptu experiment i had one beer at in the evening and had volleyball practice at i wasn t even close to leagle intoxication but i couldn t perform even the most basic things until this made me think about how i viewed alcohol and intoxication you may seem fine but your reactions may be affected such that you ll be unable to recover from hitting a rock or even just a gust of wind i greatly enjoy social drinking but for me it just doesn t mix with riding max enjoyment eric
rec.motorcycles	got my bike was wanted advice on cb c purchase thanks to all of you who gave advice on the cb custom as recommended i had the bike compression tested compression was a little low but very even across the four cylinders psi they said that it was tested a little cold so that would explain the low numbers around does this sound right otherwise the bike looked great no signs of road rash and no rust this bike looks great it is now in the shop getting tuned and new tires i am opting for the metzler me and me tires thanks to those who posted this other thread this bike is big compared to my other bikes sure is alot harder to load on a trailer than the kdx was i should be road legal tomorrow i am ignoring the afforementioned concerns about the transmission and taking my chances being a reletively new reader i am quite impressed with all the usefull info available on this newsgroup i would ask how to get my own dod number but i ll probably be too busy riding jamie w burnside o o jburnside ll mit edu c
rec.motorcycles	what about no fault insurance companies sure seem to go for no fault coverage since the majority of accidents are the cagers fault doesn t this imply that we would have to pay much higher rates under a no fault system with a cars only system it seems to make sense on the surface take the legal costs out of the system but it looks like motorcyclists would get screwed michael chuck bain meb icdfs ca boeing com semi loud pipes save lives
rec.motorcycles	re rejetting carbs now i am jumping into the middle of this thread so i may not know what y all been talking about but i have a few comments in rec motorcycles davet interceptor cds tek com dave tharp cds writes unless an engine is supercharged the pressure available to force air into the intake tract is atmospheric at the time the intake valve is opened the pressure differential available to move air is only the difference between the combustion chamber pressure left over after the exhaust stroke and atmospheric as the piston decends on the intake stroke combustion chamber pressure is decreased allowing atmospheric pressure to move more air into the intake tract at no time does the pressure ever become negative or even approach a good vacuum there are a number of other factors that are very important the three biggest being air velocity air momentum and shock waves velocity stacks have been used for years and are now being used inside of stock airboxes on a number of bikes at a tuned engine rpm the stacks can greatly increase the speed and thus momentum of the air rushing in air momentum is critical in getting good air intake the momentum of the air stack outside the combustion chamber will force its way inside long after the piston has begun its compressive up stroke shock waves are used to induce air intake and to prevent fresh air from escaping out the exzhaust ports shock waves are the product of expansion chambers or any other means of presenting a wall opening or closing to the air in motion beyond this i am lost in the mystery of how they design for shock waves rich sturges h nswc carderock division w i speak for no one else and listen to the same
rec.motorcycles	re observation re helmets in article mavenry altcit eskimo com maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer writes grf dropped my shoei rf off the seat of my bike while trying to rock it onto it s centerstand chipped the heck out of the paint on it so i cheerfully spent on a bottle of testor s model paint and repainted the scratches and chips for minutes the question for the day is re passenger helmets if you don t know for certain who s gonna ride with you like say you meet them at a church meeting yeah that s the ticket what are some guidelines should i just pick up another shoei in my size to have a backup helmet xl or should i maybe get an inexpensive one of a smaller size to accomodate my likely passenger my rule of thumb is don t give rides to people that wear a bigger helmet than you unless your taste runs that way or they are family friends gee reminds me of a dancer in hull just over the river from ottowa that i saw a few years ago for her i would a bought a bigger helmet or even her own bike or anything else she wanted there are only two types of ships in the navy submarines and targets xs lh dod next raise richard pierson e vnet internet fist iscp bellcore com uunet uunet bcr fist include std disclaimer my opinions are my own i don t shop in malls i buy my jeans jackets and ammo in the same store
rec.motorcycles	re ggrrrrrr cages double parking motorcycles pisses me off in article apr dsd es com bgardner pebbles es com blaine gardner writes in article castle ed ac uk wbg festival ed ac uk w geake writes the banana one isn t imho ultra sticky labels printed with your favourite curse are good even our local hospitals use them instead of wheel clamps putting one about a size on each window of the cage so what s your local hospital s favorite curse may your skin stick to a frozen bed pan may your apple juice be mistakenly drawn from the urinalisys lab there are only two types of ships in the navy submarines and targets xs lh dod next raise richard pierson e vnet internet fist iscp bellcore com uunet uunet bcr fist include std disclaimer my opinions are my own i don t shop in malls i buy my jeans jackets and ammo in the same store
rec.motorcycles	re contact person for boots in article apr news columbia edu rdc cunixf cc columbia edu robert d castro writes would anyone out there in dodland be able to help me out in giving me a contact to purchase a pair of military air borne combat boots d in size these boots so i have read here on rec moto are calf height boots that use only velcro for enclosure i have phoned around and nobody seems to carry such an item i admit i have not gone into the deepest bowels of nyc yet for the search but i have made some calls to several of the bigger army navy type stores with no luck anyone out there know of a place that does carry such an item as well as does mail order any help would be appreciated currently there are no velcro jump boots as issue in the military there are two other kinds one is made my cochran and sell for in either the clothing sales store or us cavalry price match at the cav store the second co is also sold but somewhat cheaper in design actually they don t care what you wear as long is they are eyelets high there is another boot called a tankers boot this has similar construction to a wellington boot except for the boot shape and has straps that wrap around for tightness nice boots there are only two types of ships in the navy submarines and targets xs lh dod next raise richard pierson e vnet internet fist iscp bellcore com uunet uunet bcr fist include std disclaimer my opinions are my own i don t shop in malls i buy my jeans jackets and ammo in the same store
rec.motorcycles	re should liability insurance be required if i have one thing to say about no fault it would be it isn t there are only two types of ships in the navy submarines and targets xs lh dod next raise richard pierson e vnet internet fist iscp bellcore com uunet uunet bcr fist include std disclaimer my opinions are my own i don t shop in malls i buy my jeans jackets and ammo in the same store
rec.motorcycles	re motorcycle security in article tekgen bv tek com davet interceptor cds tek com dave tharp cds writes i saw his bike parked in front of a bar a few weeks later without the dog and i wandered in to find out what had happened he said somebody stole m damn dog they left the harley behind animal rights people have been know to do that to other bike riding dogs cats and racoons there are only two types of ships in the navy submarines and targets xs lh dod next raise richard pierson e vnet internet fist iscp bellcore com uunet uunet bcr fist include std disclaimer my opinions are my own i don t shop in malls i buy my jeans jackets and ammo in the same store
rec.motorcycles	re should i buy a vrf mark n bricker mnb cs rit edu wrote i am in the market for a bike and have recently found a honda vrf at a dealership the bike has about miles and is around it has had two previous owners both employees of the dealership who i have been told took very good care of the bike i have two questions is this too many miles for a bike i know this would not be many miles for a car but i am unfamiliar with the life span of bikes is this a decent price i am also unfamilar with prices for used bikes is there a blue book for bikes like there is for cars thanks for any advice you can give mark mark k is not too many miles on a vfr i sold my well maintained vfr with k miles on it and the engine was in mint condition all that the bike needed was steering head bearings and fork bushings and seals the guy who bought it had a mechanic pull the valve covers to look at the top end do a compression check etc he confirmed it was mint as for price seems a little steep i bought my with k miles on it a year ago and in absolutely cherry condition for there is a bluebook ask your bank or credit union for the going price i ve seen a couple of ads for vfr s in the dollar range they all said low miles mint condition but i didn t actually go look at them a vfr is a very sweet bike and will last you forever if you maintain it at all one thing to look for btw is a soft front end if my vfr is any indication at k miles the fork springs were totally shot progressive springs fixed it right up good luck k e n ken snyder ms loc un hewlett packard co lsid lake stevens instrument div soper hill road gte tn everett wa un ix kens lsid hp com
rec.motorcycles	re should i buy a vrf mark n bricker mnb cs rit edu wrote i am in the market for a bike and have recently found a honda vrf at a dealership the bike has about miles and is around it has had two previous owners both employees of the dealership who i have been told took very good care of the bike i have two questions is this too many miles for a bike i know this would not be many miles for a car but i am unfamiliar with the life span of bikes is this a decent price i am also unfamilar with prices for used bikes is there a blue book for bikes like there is for cars thanks for any advice you can give mark k e n ken snyder ms loc un hewlett packard co lsid lake stevens instrument div soper hill road gte tn everett wa un ix kens lsid hp com
rec.motorcycles	re ggrrrrrr cages double parking motorcycles pisses me off reading all you folks things to do to illegally parked cars made me wonder who s going to carry cinder blocks on a bike or is ready to do serious damage key carvings etc to a cage then i had an idea chain lube isn t just for chain s anymore it seems more reasonable to me no permanent damage but lots of work to get off don t ask me how i know use it anywhere the windshield the door handles in the keyhole etc what a nasty mood i m in it s raining again k e n ken snyder ms loc un hewlett packard co lsid lake stevens instrument div soper hill road gte tn everett wa un ix kens lsid hp com
rec.motorcycles	re bikes vs horses was re insect impacts f in a previous article npet bnr ca nick pettefar says jonathan e quist on the thu apr gmt wibbled in article txd able mkt com com txd esd com com tom dietrich writes in a previous article egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher says lots of things none of which are quoted here the nice thing about horses though is that if they break down in the middle of nowhere you can eat them and they re rather tasty fuel s a bit cheaper too per gallon bushel perhaps unfortunately they eat the same amount every day no matter how much you ride them and if you don t fuel them they die on an annual basis i spend much less on bike stuff than amy the wonder wife does on horse stuff she has two horses i ve got umm lesseee bikes i ride constantly she rides four or five times a week even if you count insurance and the cost of the garage i built i m getting off cheaper than she is and having more fun imho go fast take chances mike s
rec.motorcycles	re more dod paraphernali js from stafford vax winona msus edu john stafford js in article pppnrinnitg cronkite central sun com js doc webrider central sun com steve bunis wrote js js how about a decal of thicker vinyl js how about a geeky temporary tatoo i mean why should the js rubs be exempt from a little razzing that s sick i want you make em up i promise to order i wannabe badtothebone the cheesy live to ride eagles are sitting on my shelf waiting for the big ride down the coast it now looks like we may hit points farther south than expected how do i get in contact with bay area denizens replies to address below me n charlie will be along in early or mid may seriously i like the idea of temporary geekys geekies geekae geekii it fits the whole dod image it sounds bad but it s really worse ryan cousinetc yamaha vision xz black pig of inverness live to ride kotrb ajs c s king rat to work to dod i d be a squid if i could afford the bike flame to ryan cousineau compdyn questor org vancouver bc canada live js js john stafford minnesota state university winona js all standard disclaimers apply slmr a if lucas built weapons wars wouldn t start either computer dynamics bbs hst v vancouver bc canada easy access low rates friendly sysop
rec.motorcycles	re motorcycle courier s jl ns subject re motorcycle courier summer job i d like to thank everyone who replied i will probably start looking in earnest after may when i return from my trip down the pacific coast the geographical feature not the bike ryan cousinetc yamaha vision xz black pig of inverness live to ride kotrb ajs c s king rat to work to dod i d be a squid if i could afford the bike flame to ryan cousineau compdyn questor org vancouver bc canada live slmr a have bike will travel quickly very quickly computer dynamics bbs hst v vancouver bc canada easy access low rates friendly sysop
rec.motorcycles	re live free but quietly or die in article qegpf d i sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher writes i know it sounds ludicrous for a biker to advocate restrictions on biking in a biking forum don t you mean former motorcyclist roid
rec.motorcycles	re riceburner respect in article apr megatek com randy megatek com randy davis writes the rider pilot i m happy i ve had such an effect on your choice of words seth t was a time when i could get a respectable response with a posting like that randy s post doesn t count cause he saw the dearth of responses and didn t want me to feel ignored thanks randy i was curious about this dod thing how do i get a number roid
rec.motorcycles	re riceburner respect in article oxz b w w cellar org craig cellar org saint craig writes no anyone who is a true rider with the real riding attitude will offer a wave weather they are on a harley or on a honda or some other bike inless they have a serious case of my bike is better than your and you re too low to be acknowleged this you ll find is the case with most of the harley riders out here where i am however i still give them a wave and ride secure in the knowlege that i m a better persob than they are huh roid
rec.motorcycles	re recommendation for a front tire in article c hrxj ace unix amherst edu nrmendel unix amherst edu nathaniel m endell writes ken orr orr epcot spdc ti com wrote in article c g hv cs unix amherst edu nrmendel unix amherst edu nathaniel mendell writes steve mansfield smm rodan uu net wrote yes my front tire is all but dead it has minimal tread left so it s time for a new one any recommendations on a good tire in front i m riding on an almost brand new me a in back steve mansfield the system we ve learned says we re equal under la w smm uunet uu net but the streets are reality the weak and poor will fall suzuki gs e let s tip the power balance and tear down the crown dod educate the masses we ll burn the white house down queensryche speak the word the best thing is to match front and back no given that the a perfect is such a good tire just go with that one the me a perfect is a rear the match for the front is the me laser dod k o ama orr epcot spdc ti com yeah what he said nathaniel zx dod am yes you definitely need a front tire on a motorcycle grin
rec.motorcycles	re how to act in front of traffic jerks in article qmvutinn he lynx unm edu galway chtm eece unm edu denis mckeon writes in heavy traffic i slow down a bit mostly so i have more buffer zone in front to balance the minimal buffer behind but i also often find that the jerk behind will notice traffic moving faster in other lanes switch into one of them and pass me which is fine because then i can keep a better eye on the jerk from behind while looking ahead rather than from in front while splitting my attention between ahead and the mirrors this is pretty damned complicated i just make a back off motion with my hand arm and the second or third time even the most braindead cager backs off if they don t back off then i find a way to get the hell out of there the cager is either psychotic drunk or just a complete asshole in any case i don t want to be anywhere near and especially not in front curtis jackson cjackson mv us adobe com hawk gt maxim dod kotb black lab mix studley doright collie golden george there is no justification for taking away individuals freedom in the guise of public safety thomas jefferson
rec.motorcycles	re choking ninja problem in article apr kuhub cc ukans edu starr kuhub cc ukans edu writes i need help with my zx a i put supertrapp slip on s on it and had the carbs re jetted to match a set of k n filters that replaced the stock airbox now i have a huge flat spot in the carburation at about thousand rpm in most any gear this is especially frustrating on the highway the bike likes to cruise at about mph which happens to be rpm in sixth gear i ve had it tuned and this doesn t seem to help i am thinking about new carbs or the injection system from a gpz does anyone have any suggestions for a fix besides restoring it to stock starr kuhub ukans cc edu the brain dead ted nugent it sound like to me that your carbs are not jetted properly if you did it yourself take it to a shop and get it done right if a shop did it get your money back and go to another shop bennett leve v sabre i m drowning throw orlando fl xl me a bagel hoggle hoggle bleve peora sdc ccur com
rec.motorcycles	airhorns on an fj review for those of you who are thinking about fiamms you might also want to think about airhorns i just installed a set of bosch air horns ordered from dennis kirk pg of the latest catalog on my fj they are rated at db at meters i installed them using gage wire from the battery to the relay to the compressor to ground my stock horn connectors fit the relay pins just fine i soldered the connections to the relay and compressor and used a crimp type battery connector and an inline amp fuse connector from napa i installed the compressor just forward of the fuse box in the front fairing by tie wrapping between the steering head frame and the black steel tube frame used to support the front fairing you have to remove the front fairing to do this but it fits outside of the frame but inside the fairing on the two vertical supports just in front of the fuses depending how tight your fairing follows the frame you should be able to fit it somewhere in the fairing the compressor is about in diameter and about long the relay mounted on the front of the steering head frame it is small so there should be plenty of good places for it i found a perfect place for the horns that required only tie wraps to mount the horns fit inside the front fairing frame and stick out on either side just in front of the air scoops but behind the turn signals the back of the horns point back towards the center of the bike and come real close to where the gas tank connects to the front part of the frame there is just enough room to the outside to allow full lock to lock clearance and there are nice cut outs in the frame for the back of the horn to go into the short horn is even with the fairing and the long one sticks out about an inch or so but it is really not that noticable unless you look closely they end up pointing down slightly and maybe degrees from straight ahead perfect for those cagers trying to change lanes into you if you have any other questions about the mounting email and i can try to explain better if your bike is not red then you may want to paint them first how do they work you ask they are very very very loud they sound more like a european sports car than a truck but a vast improvement over stock i have used them at least daily since installing them and the amp fuse has not blown yet although the duration of the horn blasts have been short i ve repeatedly scared the shit out of my friends with them even though they know that i have the horns they still jump they are perfect for keeping the pedestrians on the sidewalk the bottom line is they work are loud enough to cause pain and suffering to those stupid lane changing cages as well as take a few years off their lives and are relatively easy to install on the fj ymmv tjk fj with get out of my way horns that looks like a suit you d fight a fire in comment about the aerostich
rec.motorcycles	buying advice needed i am looking for advice on buying a susuki gs e does anyone out there know about any inherent flaws the bike may have or problems i should look for what about insurance rates is this bike blacklisted also as a person who has never ridden a motorcycle yet is buying a to start off with am i crazy i have been told by some people to start out small and by others that i am lage enough to handle an right off from the start pounds because some others might be a tad bit small oh yeah one more question anybody in the chicago area know of any good instruction schools or programs where i could get aquanted before i just go buy one and kill myself getting it home thanks brian p s please email me direcly because i do not get much of a chance to read your group thanks again
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post in article apr rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes we all seem to be in agreement that there are two explanations for why one can use the handlebars to lean a moving motorcycle the question is is one of the effect dominant and which one is it the idea would be to design an experiment which would seaprate the two characteristics and see which effect produces a similar result to the one with which those of us who have bikes are familiar as you point out the experiments would be difficult but we know enough about the physics of the situation to do some calculations there are in fact three effects contributing to leaning the bike over to begin a turn gyro effect causing a torque which twists the bike over contact patch having shifted to one side causing bike to fall over contact patch being accelerated to the side causing a torque which twists the bike over take an average bike rider average bike wheel and at speeds of and mph say calculate how much twist of the bars would be needed to produce say degrees of lean in say seconds by each effect alone my guess is that at slow speeds is dominant and at high speeds is dominant and at all speeds contributes not far off bugger all relatively speaking by the way a similar problem is this how does a runner who wants to run round a corner get leaned into the corner fast is there a running group where we could start counter footing arguments and have them all falling over as they tried to work out how they go round corners chris malcolm cam uk ac ed aifh department of artificial intelligence edinburgh university forrest hill edinburgh eh ql uk dod
rec.motorcycles	re kawasaki ae for sale included in thas sale is a cover the cover is not sold separately the trailer is not being sold pat
rec.motorcycles	info on sport cruisers i m looking for a sport cruiser factory installed fairings full half hard saddle bags cc and above and all that and still has that sporty look i particularly like the r rs and k rt or s or any of the k series bmw bikes i was wondering if there are any other comparable type bikes being produced by companies other than bmw thanks for the info jae jae cmu edu
rec.motorcycles	re boom dog attack azw aber ac uk andy woodward writes better still reverse this sequence then hit the bugger under accelleration to stabilise yourself i hate things that attack me if the dog thinks you have run away it has established dominance over these funny noisy sheep things and will attack every bike that comes along for the fun of it if you can hurt the bugger it learns that it is below bikes in the peck order and you may have saved the life of a future biker whose evasive action to avoid the dog might otherwise put him under a truck never avoid a dog for the dog s sake only you re own i hate to admit this but there does seem to be some sort of twisted logic to this approach it s the bikers against the world and the dogs are just another worthless adversary so remember to wear at least calf height leather boots in case the dog gets lucky and sinks his teeth into your attacking foot and go for the gusto if that dog doesn t retreat from the street with his tail between his legs next time you see it then you really haven t done your bit for all your fellow bikers this also applies in cages sorry i can t go this far a dog against and armored cage just doesn t seem like a fair fight if the dog is out of control it is a menace to all road users and no compunction should be felt if ensuring your safety means the destruction of it s after all it is forcing the game not you after all it is a dog eat dog world dave
rec.motorcycles	more moa stuff like the ra ok so we ve got a hotly contested bmwoa election and some inept leadership my question is the history of the bmw organization that lead to the formation of the bmwra was there something going on in the oa years ago that precipitated the formation of two competing owner s groups just to stave off flames i m a relatively new member of both groups and besides a difference in the slickness of the magazines it seems the major difference is that the ra guys seem to have more fun art art campbell artc world std com compuserve com dod real bmws have just two wheels in my opinion there s nothing in this world beats a vincent and a redheaded girl richard thompson
rec.motorcycles	re happy easter ranck joesbar cc vt edu wm l ranck writes nick pettefar npet bnr ca wrote english cars rover reliant morgan bristol rolls royce etc talk about harleys using old technology these morgan people really like to use old technology i think their suspension design hasn t changed since they went from wheels to back in the s and it s not like they had reached the pinnacle of good design at that point either well if you want to pick on morgan why not attack its ash wood frame or its hand bent metal skin just try and get a replacement i thought the kingpost suspension was one of the mog s better features karen black
rec.motorcycles	dogs i m a biker and a dog lover first and foremost i want to mention some common sense if it s a choice between injuring killing a dog or getting yourself injured killed there is only one rational decision only the most insane animal rights kook would put the dog first second it s useful to learn how to read a dog s body language how you react to a dog who is chasing you because he thinks it s a game and that you re playing with him is completely different from how you react to a dog which has hostile intent third it s useful to learn how to present yourself to a dog dogs are social beasts and recognize a domination submission hierarchy to a dog there are two types of fellow creatures that which he dominates and that which dominate him you need to unambiguously represent yourself as being of the latter class you are god you are easily angered and your anger is terrible but god is also amused by one who properly submits to his dominance and may even on rare occasions dispense a kind word a kind word or even oh joy oh rapture unforeseen a dog bisquit now how does that all relate to biking well first it s a good idea to assume that most dogs who chase motorcycles do so because they think it s a game and not out of overt hostility the msf suggestion is a very good one when you see the dog coming slow down so he determines a particular place of interception just before you and he reach that spot punch the throttle so that when he reaches it you re already long gone dogs take a few seconds to react to new input and definitely cannot comprehend the acceleration that a motorcycle is capable of with a hostile dog or one which you repeatedly encounter stronger measures may be necessary this is the face off first and there is very important make sure you never face off a dog on his territory face him off on the road not on his driveway if necessary have a large stick rolled up newspaper etc something the beast will understand is something that will hurt him stand your ground then slowly advance your mental attitude is that you are very angry and are going to dispense terrible punishment the larger the dog the greater your anger dogs will pick up anger just as they can pick up fear and since you and he are not on his home territory it may suddenly dawn on the dog that perhaps he is on your territory and that you are prepared to fight to the death most dogs will decide that it is a good idea to retreat to their own territory where there is at least a home advantage they ll also observe that you are satisfied by that retreat gesture of submission and thus they have escaped punishment the interesting thing about dogs is that body language communicates a great deal to them the more effective you are at communicating body language the less you actually have to do after years with my pound beast i ve learned a few tricks i think
rec.motorcycles	misc buying info needed hi i have been thinking about buying a motorcycle or a while now and i have some questions is there a buying guide for new used motorcycles that lists reliability how to go about the buying process what to look for etc is there a pricing guide for new used motorcycles blue book also are there any books articles on riding cross country motorcycle camping etc is there an idiots guide to motorcycles any related information is helpful please respond directly to me thanks a lot jordan
rec.motorcycles	draining battery i have a problem with the battery on my honda cb nighthawk every week or so it is dead and i have to recharge it i ride the bike every day the battery is new and the charging system was checked thoroughly and it seems fine my suspicion is that it is draining somewhere do you have any idea about what is causing this problem please help since my mechanic and me are clueless ljubomir
rec.motorcycles	re riceburner respect in rec motorcycles klinger ccu umanitoba ca jorg klinger writes in apr icomsim com mmanning icomsim com michael manning writes most people wave or return my wave when i m on my harley other harley riders seldom wave back to me when i m on my duck squids don t wave or return waves ever even to each other from what i can tell when we take a hand off the bars we fall down the problem is that squids and badassbikers can t recognize each other s waves when you re riding a cruiser you wave by lifting two or three fingers of the left hand without first removing that hand from the handlebar when you re riding a crotch rocket you lower the left hand to about ankle level palm forward and call that a wave generic bike riders actually seem to raise the hand entirely off the handlebar and wave it around so it s easy to tell when they re waving chris
rec.motorcycles	re lane sharing in ca in three years of riding in the cities of san jose santa clara and sunnyvale i never came into any conflict with the local police over my lane splitting habits all three of these cities were listed earlier as being anti splitting in one way or another i can t say whether this was due to luck police kindness or there not actually being any ordinances against it in these cities so i continue revco
rec.motorcycles	re boom dog attack ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau writes my previous posting on dog attacks must have generated some bad karma or something i ve weathered attempted dog attacks before using the approved method slow down to screw up dog s triangulation of target then take off and laugh at the dog now far behind you this time it didn t work because i didn t have time riding up the hill leading to my house i encountered a liver and white springer spaniel no relation to the springer softail or the springer spagthorpe a close relation to the spagthorpe viking actually the dog encountered me with intent to harm interesting dog collision story deleted what worries me about the accident is this i don t think i could have prevented it except by traveling much slower than i was this is not necessarily an unreasonable suggestion for a residential area but i was riding around the speed limit i worry about what would have happened if it had been a car instead of a dog but i console myself with the thought that it would take a truly insane bdi cager to whip out of a blind driveway at mph for that matter how many driveways are long enough for a car to hit mph by the end i eagerly await comment my driveway and about half my neighbor s driveways are long enough to do a good clicks mph for the velocity impaired if we wanted to granted i live in the country however i ve seen neighbors whip out of their driveways at the above mentioned mph quite a bit they claim they can tell that there s noone on the road for quite a ways this despite having nearly been hit myself by one of them while driving a chev x and twice taking my speed bicycle over the hood of a car that had pulled out saw me then stopped same driver same car about two months apart obmoto the scary relevant part is that these people and i live on the type of twisty two lane that we all favor for riding and i know damn well that they can t see me on my bike not if they couldn t see me in my pickup ryan cousinetc yamaha vision xz black pig of inverness live to ride kotrb ajs c s king rat to work to dod i d be a squid if i could afford the bike flame to ryan cousineau compdyn questor org vancouver bc canada live slmr a he s hurt dammit jim i m a doctor oh right computer dynamics bbs hst v vancouver bc canada easy access low rates friendly sysop there s nothing like the pitter patter of little feet followed by the words hey you re not my daddy sorry i had to do it just once dean woodward you want to step into my world dean fringe rain com it s a socio psychotic state of bliss virago guns n roses my world dod
rec.motorcycles	re insurance and lotsa points in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes well it looks like i m f cked for insurance i had a dwi in and for the beemer as a rec vehicle it ll cost me almost bucks to insure year now what do i do sell the bike and the car and start taking the bus that way you can keep drinking which seems to be where your priorities lay i expect that enough of us on this list have lost friends because of driving drunks that our collective sympathy will be somewhat muted showing great restraint keith hanlan keithh bnr ca bell northern research ottawa canada
rec.motorcycles	re ducati opinions wanted in article qmnga s q news ysu edu ak yfn ysu edu albion h bowers writes in a previous article bgardner pebbles es com blaine gardner says i guess i m out of touch but what exactly is the ducati a v twin desmo or is it that half a v twin with the balance weight where the nd cylinder would go a second for a isn t bad at all sorry i should have been more specific the ss ran the quater in the last small v twin duc we got in the us and the is a pantah based v twin was the sl pantah and it ran a creditable modern carbs and what not should put the in the high s at btw fzr s ran mid s and the latest crop of japanese s will out run that it s hard to remember but but a new goof will clobber an old kz handily both in top end and roll on technology stands still for no one not too hard to remember i bought a gs new in it was rd place in the speed wars behind the cbx xs eleven with a mile and horses that wouldn t even make a good these days then again i paid for it so technology isn t the only thing that s changed of course i d still rather ride the old gs across three states than any of the s i guess it s an indication of how much things have changed that a second didn t seem too far out of line blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
rec.motorcycles	re riceburner respect in article apr cbnewsm cb att com shz mare att com keeper of the tude writes huh roid on a completely different tack what was the eventual outcome of babe vs the bad mouthed biker later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	re happy easter karen black karen angelo amd com wrote ranck joesbar cc vt edu wm l ranck writes nick pettefar npet bnr ca wrote english cars rover reliant morgan bristol rolls royce etc talk about harleys using old technology these morgan people really like to use old technology well if you want to pick on morgan why not attack its ash wood frame or its hand bent metal skin just try and get a replacement i thought the kingpost suspension was one of the mog s better features hey i wasn t picking on morgan they use old technology that s all i said there s nothing wrong with using old technology people still use shovels to dig holes even though there are lots of new powered implements to dig holes with bill ranck bill ranck vt edu computing center virginia polytchnic inst state univ blacksburg va
rec.motorcycles	re bmw moa members read this karr cs cornell edu david karr writes get the organization to act on it is easy to say but says little about what one really can and should do what the organization actually will do is largely determined by the president and directors as far as i can see that s what makes it so important to vote in an election of officers if i remember right i heard that in the last election only of the members actually cast votes i wonder if the current board and their friends and relatives make up of the membership i certainly plan on staying with the club long enough to vote and to see the results it does strike me that the bmwmoa is a lot less politically active in the state and national arenas not infighting than other m c organizations should we change this or just join the other groups that already are in politics i wouldn t support the moa becoming politically active in that sense the ama already knows how to do that and i d rather see the moa support the ama in a manner that the ama needs i think that more could be accomplished from one strong front rather than two not neccessarily coordinated ones joe senner joe rider cactus org austin area ride mailing list ride rider cactus org texas splatterfest mailing list fest rider cactus org
rec.motorcycles	re bmw moa members read this vech ra msstate edu craig a vechorik writes i wrote the slash two blues for a bit of humor which seems to be lacking in the moa owners news when most of the stuff is i rode the the first day i saw that i rode there the second day i saw this i admit it was a surprise to find something interesting to read in the most boring and worthless mag of all the ones i get any body out there know were the sense if humor went in people i though i still had mine but i dunno i think most people see your intended humor i do i liked the article you seem to forget that you ve stepped into the political arena as well intentioned as you may intend something you re walking through a china store carrying that on your head everything you say or do says something about how you would represent the membership on any given day you don t have to look far in american politics to see what a few light hearted jokes about one segment of the population can do to someone in the limelight obmoto i did manage to squeak in a reference to a joe senner joe rider cactus org austin area ride mailing list ride rider cactus org texas splatterfest mailing list fest rider cactus org
rec.motorcycles	re bmw moa members read this cdw t dayhoff med virginia edu dances with federal rangers writes i m going to buy a bmw just to cast a vote for groucho i thought you were gonna buy a bmw for its superior power and handling joe senner joe rider cactus org austin area ride mailing list ride rider cactus org texas splatterfest mailing list fest rider cactus org
rec.motorcycles	re ducati opinions wanted i spoke to a sales dweeb in x a ducati dealer here in blighty and he had nothing good to say about them it appears they are waaaay underpowered basically it s the with a cc engine and there have been some quality problems rusty frame save your pennies buy the
rec.motorcycles	re bmw moa members read this i first heard it about academic politics but the same thought seems to apply to the bmwmoa the politics is so dirty because the stakes are so small who cares i get my dues worth from the ads and occasional technical articles in the news i skip the generally drab articles about someone s trek across iowa if some folks get thrilled by the power of the bmwmoa they deserve whatever thrills their sad lives provide btw i voted for new blood just to keep things stirred up henry prange physiology iu sch med blgtn dod bmwmoa gsi ride r gs rx conv cage explorer cage the four tenets of all major religions i am right you are wrong hence you deserve to be punished by me
rec.motorcycles	re extraordinary footpeg engineering exb csdvax csd unsw edu au wrote okay dod ers here s a goddamn mystery for ya oh goody i love a puzzle watson the games afoot today i was turning a degree corner just like on any other day but there was a slight difference a rough spot right in my path caused the suspension to compress in mid corner and some part of the bike hit the ground with a very tangible thunk i pulled over at first opportunity to sus out the damage stuff deleted okay all you engineering types how the f k do you explain this how can you rip a tightly fitting steel thread out of a threaded hole in alloy without damaging the thread in the hole is this some sort of hi tech design thingo let me guess you were making a left turn correct the edge of the stud contacting the road caused it to turn and unthread itself if you had been making a right turn it would have tightened the stud bill ranck bill ranck vt edu computing center virginia polytchnic inst state univ blacksburg va
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith writes mjs secondly it is the adhesion of the mjs tyre on the road the suspension geometry and the ground clearance of the mjs motorcycle which dictate how quickly you can swerve to avoid obstacles and mjs not the knowledge of physics between the rider s ears are you seriously mjs suggesting that countersteering knowledge enables you to corner faster mjs or more competently than you could manage otherwise egreen east sun com writes ed if he s not i will hey ed you didn t give me the chance sheesh the answer is absolutely as ed so eloquently describes ed put two riders on identical machines it s the ed one who knows what he s doing and why that will be faster it may ed be possible to improve your technique if you have no idea what it is ed through trial and error but it is not very effective methodology ed only by understanding the technique of steering a motorcycle can one ed improve on that technique i hold that this applies to any human ed endeavor herein lies the key to this thread kindly note the difference in the responses ed and i are talking about knowing riding technique while mike is arguing knowing the physics behind it it is possible to be taught the technique of countersteering ie push the bar on the inside of the turn to go that way without having to learn all the fizziks about gyroscopes and ice cream cones and such as seen in the parallel thread that stuff is mainly of interest to techno motorcycle geeks like the readers of rec motorcycles but doesn t need to be taught to the average student learning c steering mike doesn t seem to be able to make the distinction i know people who can carve circles around me who couldn t tell you who newton was on the other hand i know very intelligent well educated people who think that you steer a motorcycle by either leaning steering a la bicycles or a combination of and knowledge of physics doesn t get you squat knowledge of technique does mr bill
rec.motorcycles	re riceburner respect in article oxz b w w cellar org craig cellar org saint craig writes no anyone who is a true rider with the real riding attitude will offer a wave weather they are on a harley or on a honda or some other bike inless they have a serious case of my bike is better than your and you re too low to be acknowleged i may not wave i just wink at you with one eye course it s hard to see that through a shield and sunglasses but hey if you re a true rider with the real riding attitude you ll sense it chuck rogers car torreys att com
rec.motorcycles	re dogs in article ms c mrc ikkoku kan panda com mrc ikkoku kan panda com mark crispin writes with a hostile dog or one which you repeatedly encounter stronger measures may be necessary this is the face off first and there is very important make sure you never face off a dog on his territory face him off on the road not on his driveway if necessary have a large stick rolled up newspaper etc something the beast will understand is something that will hurt him stand your ground then slowly advance your mental attitude is that you are very angry and are going to dispense terrible punishment the larger the dog the greater your anger this tactic depends for its effectiveness on the dog s conformance to a psychological norm that may not actually apply to a particular dog i ve tried it with some success before but it won t work on a charlie manson dog or one that s really really stupid a large irish setter taught me this in my yard apparently his territory one day i m sure he was playing a game with me the game was probably kill the very angry neighbor before he can dispense the terrible punishment chuck rogers car torreys att com
rec.motorcycles	re here s to the assholes in article jrobbins apr kingston cs ucla edu you rambled on about in article lee seas ucla edu small thunder seas ucla edu james f small writes here s to the asshole scooter owners who triple parked behind my bike today jim calling other prople assholes what s next if you re going to flame learn to spell besides assholeism is endemic to the two wheeled motoring community why i do believe that jason the wise respected hahahha has just made a stereotypical remark how unsophisticated of you i m so sorry you had to come out of your ivory tower and stoop as you would say to my obviously lower level besides geekism is endemic to the albino phoosball playing community and those who drive volvos remember send your flames to jrobbins cs ucla edu i need what a formal education can not provide dod
rec.motorcycles	re safe driving prcatices in article cvbnetprime com rbemben timewarp prime com rich bemben writes never dilly dally in that rear of either side of a cage when you pass make it as positive as possible and if you can t pass fully at least make sure that if you attempt it you can make the driver aware of you by at least getting into his area of vision this reads a lot like the philosophies of musashi in the book of five rings much of the section on the long sword is that of being strong and decisive hmmm the more things change ride with four eyes what an awfull thing to call your pillion rich fear not the evil men do in the name of evil but heaven protect us from the evil men do in the name of good power corrupts check out the explosion that the cryptography policy from the whitehouse friday has caused curt howland ace dod eff howland nsipo nasa gov v sabre meddle not in the afairs of wizards for it makes them soggy and hard to re light
rec.motorcycles	misc buying info needed hi i have been thinking about buying a motorcycle or a while now and i have some questions is there a buying guide for new used motorcycles that lists reliability how to go about the buying process what to look for etc is there a pricing guide for new used motorcycles blue book also are there any books articles on riding cross country motorcycle camping etc is there an idiots guide to motorcycles any related information is helpful please respond directly to me thanks a lot jordan me also thanks jonathan d fields fields cis ohio state edu
rec.motorcycles	need a wheel does anyone have a rear wheel for a pd they d like to part with does anyone know where i might find one salvage as long as i m getting the givi luggage for brunnhilde and have the room i thought i d carry a spare ride free bill johnsw wsuvm csc wsu edu prez bimc kotv kotrr dod ama spi wmtc kotd yamabeemer fj gs pdr special and a volvo what more could anyone ask pain is inevitable suffering is optional
rec.motorcycles	re live free but quietly or die in rec motorcycles egreen east sun com writes revving the throttle requires either dis engaging the clutch or accelerating not if it s a harley chris
rec.motorcycles	re v max handling request in article apr ntuvax ntu ac sg ba ntuvax ntu ac sg writes hello there ican anyone who has handson experience on riding the yamaha v max pls kindly comment on its handling i remember a commercial for some cheap top heavy import cage a while back where the driver says while wearing a stuck up fake tv anouncers smile it really goes straight it fits
rec.motorcycles	re got my bike was wanted advice on cb c purchase in article apr ll mit edu jburnside ll mit edu jamie w burnside writes being a reletively new reader i am quite impressed with all the usefull info available on this newsgroup isn t this redundent
rec.motorcycles	re dogs in article ms c mrc ikkoku kan panda com mrc ikkoku kan panda com mark crispin writes i m a biker and a dog lover no wonder bikers have such a horrid reputation go find a human the interesting thing about dogs is that body language communicates a great deal to them the more effective you are at communicating body language the less you actually have to do i agree completely unfortunately the majority of my feelings before i can even start to think rationally abhout the dog that is trying to kill me are fear when there s been a moment to set up like you said a bit down the road or whatever i ve never had a problem with dogs curt howland ace dod eff howland nsipo nasa gov v sabre meddle not in the afairs of wizards for it makes them soggy and hard to re light
rec.motorcycles	re rgv and posing in article speedy engr latech edu speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer writes in article spam maths adelaide edu au amydlak spam maths adelaide edu au adam mydlak writes squid deleted helment laws vary from state to state in my state louisiana it is the law i personaly would not go feet on a bike without one law or no law a helment will save your life i ll go feet but i draw the line at blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
rec.motorcycles	re comments on a honda interceptor in article apr skyfox howp skyfox writes hi i am considering the purchase of a honda cc interceptor for cdn about us i don t know the mileage on this bike but from the picture in the rv trader magazine it looks to be in good shape can anybody enlighten me as to whether this is a good purchase is it a good bike this will be my first bike i realize that for a beginner cc is considered too be a bit too much bike i have heard from friends that were once beginners that if they had to start all over again that they would have started with a bigger bike one just has to be careful and not drive outside their skill level i had considered and posted about two weeks ago the purchase of cc yamaha seca turbo with km but i am a little wary now about the prospect of having to deal with a turbo both on the road and in the shop i may still consider this bike the price dropped from to cdn but the honda seems to be a good bike comments one word heavy it steers heavy turns require alot of effort hard to get access to the large v motor weak small front forks with anti dive gizmos at
rec.motorcycles	bike for sale in ma usa i ve recently become father of twins i don t think i can afford to keep bikes and babies both babies are staying so of the harleys is going xlhd mi hey it was my wife s bike speed chain secondary laced wheels buckhorns tachometer saddlebags supports sissy bar se high flow air cleaner dark candy red jeff derienzo jd zorro tyngsboro ma us
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies xlyx vax cit cornell edu from xlyx vax cit cornell edu writes is it possible to do a wheelie on a motorcycle with shaft drive yes joe senner joe rider cactus org austin area ride mailing list ride rider cactus org texas splatterfest mailing list fest rider cactus org
rec.motorcycles	re flashing anyone in article apr news columbia edu rdc cunixf cc columbia edu robert d castro writes hello all on my bike i have hazard lights both front and back turn signals flash since i live in nj and commute to nyc there are a number of tolls one must pay on route just before arriving at a toll booth i switch the hazards on i do thisto warn other motorists that i will be taking longer than the seconds to make the transaction taking gloves off getting money out of coin changer pocket making transaction putting gloves back on takes a little more time than the average cager takes to make the same transaction of paying the toll i also notice that when i do this cagers tend to get the message and usually go to another booth my question is this a good bad thing to do this sounds like a very good thing to do any others tend to do the same i will now whenever i don t have my handy dandy automatic coin fetcher toll payer annette with me thanks for the tip later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	antifreeze coolant for those of you with motorcycles of the liquid cooled persuasion what brand of coolant do you use and why i am looking for aluminum safe coolant preferably phosphate free and preferably cheaper than gallon can you believe it the kaw dealer wants a quart for the official blessed holy kawasaki coolant no way i m paying that usury thanks chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	re should liability insurance be required in article apr research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna writes in article tcora b gator pica army mil tcora pica army mil tom coradeschi writes in article apr walter bellcore com bzzzt if it is the other driver s fault your insurance co pays you less deductible then recoups the total cost from the other guy gal s company there s a fancy word for it which escapes me right now and pays you the deductible or you can go to the other guy gal s company right off just takes longer to get your cash as opposed to state farm who cut me a check today on the spot for the damage to my wife s cage the word is subrogation seems to me if you re willing to wait for the money from scumbag s insurance that you save having to pay the deductible however if scumbag s insurance is scum insurance then you may have to pay the deductible to get your insurance co s pack of rabid large fanged lawyers to recover the damages from scum insurance s lawyers sad but true call it job security for lawyers later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady you know it sounds suspiciously like no fault doesn t even do what it was advertised as doing getting the lawyers out of the loop sigh another naive illusion down the toilet tommy mcguire mcguire cs utexas edu mcguire austin ibm com i will append an appropriate disclaimer to outgoing public information identifying it as personal and as independent of ibm
rec.motorcycles	re riceburner respect am amazed at the number of harley riders who are waving even to a lowly baby ninja let s keep up the good attitudes brock yates said in this months car and driver he is ready for a war against those who would rather we all rode busses we bikers should be too it s a freedom that we all wanna know and it s an obsession to some to keep the world in your rearview mirror while you try to run down the sun wheels by rhestless heart marty o ninja xl motosport
rec.motorcycles	re camping was help with backpack in article apr rtsg mot com svoboda rtsg mot com david svoboda writes in article apr bnr ca dave dal farra gpz bnr ca writes my crafty girfriend makes campfire bbq starters a la mcgiver well heck if you re going to make them yourself you can buy candle wax by the pound much cheper than the candles themselves hell just save your candle stubs and bring them light them up and dribble the wax all over the kindling wood and light that although i like the belly button lint eggshell case idea the best if you re feeling particularly industrious some eventful evening or you can do what i did one soggy summer open the fuel line drain some onto a piece of rough or rotten wood stick that into the middle of the soon to be inferno and carefully strike a match as kurt vonnegut titled one of the latter chapters in cat s cradle ah whoom works like a charm every time b o d y i s t h e b i k e dod asphaug hindmost lpl arizona edu kawi zephyr erik asphaug bmw r gs s o u l i s t h e r i d e r
rec.motorcycles	re how to act in front of traffic jerks in article nielsmm nanna imv aau dk nielsmm imv aau dk niels mikkel michelsen writes the other day it was raining cats and dogs therefor i was going only to the speed limit on nothing more on my bike this guy in his bmw was driving meters behind me for meters and at the next red light i calmly put the bike on its leg walked back to this car he rolled down the window and i told him he was a total idiot and the reason why did i do the right thing yours truly niels mikkel yesss you make me proud to be an merkun good thing you didn t get shot though don t try that with a good ole boy in texas i once had a jeep driver south of conroe cut me off i was in my car after i had flipped him off for doing something really idiotic and senseless all lbs of him stretches out of his jeep he walks back he is blocking all traffic between dallas and houston since the freeway has been squeezed into a single lane and says to me stick that finger out again and i ll rip it off your hand and shove it down your sorry ass throat i stared straight ahead unblinking a hundred cars were honking eventually he got back into his jeep face beet red with anger and all the rest of the way back to houston i tailed him waving honking flipping him off yelling i m glad he decided not to shoot me b o d y i s t h e b i k e dod asphaug hindmost lpl arizona edu kawi zephyr erik asphaug bmw r gs s o u l i s t h e r i d e r
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post in article qjn i d i sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes on a waterski bike you turn the handlebars left to lean right just like on a motorcycle so this supports the move the contact patch from beneath the centre of mass theory on how to lean this contradicts the need for gyroscopic precession to have a countersteering induced lean for a waterski bike it contradicts nothing for a motorcycle not only that but this morning i saw a tv ad for a waterski bike a sea doo for those who care i watched the lengthy ad very carefully and in every case and at every speed the riders turned the handlebars left to go left and right to go right in other words they were not countersteering so perhaps it is only some waterski bikes on which one countersteers curtis jackson cjackson mv us adobe com hawk gt maxim dod kotb black lab mix studley doright collie golden george there is no justification for taking away individuals freedom in the guise of public safety thomas jefferson
rec.motorcycles	european m c insurance anyone in europe got any advice for a us citizen whose going to be living and working in italy for a year and wants to buy a motorcycle there an italian friend just arrived here in washington state to work for two years and she s finding it very very difficult to obtain car insurance so i thought i d ask i have a us license with motorcycle endorsement unlimited displacement and have had for years i am also a washington state motorcycle safety instructor if that info might help i will post a summary even if it s just of my own personal experience in buying a bike and getting it insured after i get to italy h marc lewis there are two kinds of people in the world olivetti north america those who divide everything in the world into marcl mail spk olivetti com two kinds of things and those who don t
rec.motorcycles	re motorcycle detailing tip mbeaving bnr ca michael beavington writes don t you just hate when the speedo and tach on your bike start to cloud over from all that nasty sunshine the detailing tip of the week is to use rubbing compound moisten a rag apply some rubbing compound and work into the translucent previously transparent material after a few minutes of working on the plastic face the dial or plastic face will be clear once more will not work for glass btw i am not responsible for damages incurred when using the above method most models can use the treatment safely the beav mike beavington bellnorthernresearch ottawa ont canada dod seca seca rz seca suzuki seca turbo v sabre gts can t afford the mbeaving bnr ca mcguire s makes a plastic scratch removing compound and a plastic polishing compound which really work great as well
rec.motorcycles	shipping a bike can someone recommend how to ship a motorcycle from san francisco to seattle and how much might it cost i remember a thread on shipping if someone saved the instructions on bike prep please post em again or email thanks manish
rec.motorcycles	re tire recomendation for cb t wanted in article apr cbnewsm cb att com asalerno cbnewsm cb att com antonio j salerno jr writes i ve got a cb t with chen shing sp tires on it i got it with these tires on it the only reason i need new tires is beacuse i hate and don t feel safe on these i d appreciate any recomendations i can get about new tires thanks tony i ll throw in a vote for a metzler economy tire the me good for mid size older bikes rated to mph wearing well and handles my mile ride twisties to work well on the sr costs a bit more than the chengs irc s etc but still less than the sport metzlers for the newer bikes cost from chaparral is about for the front and for the rear jon m mike corcoran mike corcoran sandiego ncr com yamaha sr honda xl husky cross
rec.motorcycles	re bdi experience kent d polk kent swrinde nde swri edu wrote also watch your mirrors any time you are turning i just had another close one last night preparing for a right turn on a two lane road right turn signals on starting the turn and this lady behind me hits the throttle and starts to pass me on the right this has happened to me twice before the i have had this happen to me often enough that i always look for it on my ride to work in the morning i come to a stop light where there are lanes in my direction one for left turns one for straight through and one for right turns all clearly marked plus there is a clearly marked bicycle lane i ride into the right turn lane with my signal on and stop at the stop line looking left to see if i can make a right turn on red and when i start to move discovered that some idiot has pulled into the bike lane and is trying to pass me on the right grrr i always do a head check on bike lanes not always for bicycles bill ranck bill ranck vt edu computing center virginia polytchnic inst state univ blacksburg va
rec.motorcycles	re bmw moa members read this as a new bmw owner i was thinking about signing up for the moa but right now it is beginning to look suspiciously like throwing money down a rathole when you guys sort this out let me know bill ranck bill ranck vt edu computing center virginia polytchnic inst state univ blacksburg va
rec.motorcycles	re shipping a bike in a previous article manish uclink berkeley edu manish vij says can someone recommend how to ship a motorcycle from san francisco to seattle and how much might it cost hmmmmmm put your butt in the seat and follow the road signs dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.motorcycles	re antifreeze coolant in article apr research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna writes for those of you with motorcycles of the liquid cooled persuasion what brand of coolant do you use and why i am looking for aluminum safe coolant preferably phosphate free and preferably cheaper than gallon can you believe it the kaw dealer wants a quart for the official blessed holy kawasaki coolant no way i m paying that usury prestone i buy it at shopko for less than that a gallon bmw has even more expensive stuff than kawasaki must be from grapes only grown in certain parts of the fatherland but bmw dave said don t worry about it just change it yearly and keep it topped off it s been keeping gretchen happy since so i guess it s ok kept my rabbit s aluminum radiator hoppy for years and miles too so i guess it s aluminum safe former owner of the late lamented rochester bmw motorcycles and all around good guy pooder rochester mn dod what do you care what other people think richard feynman i share garage space with gretchen k harvey cb note the different reply to address if you want to send me e mail
rec.motorcycles	re bikes with big dogs in article apr cua edu wendel cua edu writes has anyone ever heard of a rider giving a big dog such as a great dane a ride on the back of his bike my dog would love it if i could ever make it work thanks wendel cua edu if a large malmute counts then yes someone has heard and seen such an irresponsible childish stunt the dog needed assistance straightening out once on board the owner would lift the front legs of dog and throw them over the driver pilots shoulders said dog would get shit eating grin on its face and away they d go the dogs ass was firmly planted on the seat my dog and this dog actively seek each other out at camping party s they hate each other i think it s something personal steatopygias s r us doh that ain t no hottentot sesquipedalian s r us zx ama dod there ain t no more
rec.motorcycles	re uh der whassa deltabox can someone tell me what a deltabox frame is and what relation that has if any to the frame on my hawk gt that way next time some guy comes up to me in some parking lot and sez hey dude nice bike is that a deltabox frame on there i can say something besides duh er huh the yammie deltabox and the hawk frame are conceptually similar but yammie has a tm on the name the hawk is a purer twin spar frame design investment castings at steering head and swing arm tied together with aluminum extruded beams the yammie solution is a bit more complex godfrey digiorgi ramarren apple com dod ama rule never sell a ducati the street finds its own rule always obey rule uses for things wg ducati cinelli toyota krups nikon sony apple telebit
rec.motorcycles	re should liability insurance be required in article qf g l vtserf cc vt edu ranck joesbar cc vt edu wm l ranck writes dan j declerck declrckd rtsg mot com wrote in states with no fault auto insurance this applies you basically insure your own vehicle and the max you can sue for is about in mi anyway the point to be made with no fault is the fact that it removes the lawyers from the system and lets people get their money faster the removal of lawyers reduces the clogs on court system and thus reduces government burdens by not requiring so many judges does it work i don t know ask the people of michigan no ask the people of new jersey where the no fault hoax has been going on for years last i heard every state that ever got no fault insurance saw an increase in rates i know that s what happened in nj because i lived there when it changed just one more reason i will never go back to that state bill ranck bill ranck vt edu computing center virginia polytchnic inst state univ blacksburg va in colorado my agent tells me that no fault only applies to the medical coverage
rec.motorcycles	re bmw moa members read this wm l ranck ranck joesbar cc vt edu wrote as a new bmw owner i was thinking about signing up for the moa but right now it is beginning to look suspiciously like throwing money down a rathole i concur with this the politics and bickering going on has ruined bmwmoa to me because of the politics and fighting i m i m going to let my current membership lapse when it s up for renewal hesh p s bmwra s on the level is a far superiour publication in my opinion
rec.motorcycles	re should liability insurance be required tommy marcus mcguire mcguire cs utexas edu wrote you know it sounds suspiciously like no fault doesn t even do what it was advertised as doing getting the lawyers out of the loop sigh another naive illusion down the toilet since most legislators are lawyers it is very difficult to get any law passed that would cut down on lawyers business that is why no fault insurance laws always backfire bill ranck bill ranck vt edu computing center virginia polytchnic inst state univ blacksburg va
rec.motorcycles	re v max handling request in article qjtr llb news ysu edu ak yfn ysu edu john r daker writes in a previous article ba ntuvax ntu ac sg says hello there ican anyone who has handson experience on riding the yamaha v max pls kindly comment on its handling you re kidding right this is flame bait in the extreme v max handling har har har har zero to very fast very quickly lastest rumor is hp at the rear wheel handles like a dream in a straight line to and then gets a tad upset according to a review in cycle world cornering er well you can t have everything seriously handling is probably as good as the big standards of the early s but not compareable to whats state of the art these days all this gleemed from reviews and discussions with owners i too lust after this bike bj bradw newbridge com no sig no plan no clue dod
rec.motorcycles	re how to act in front of traffic jerks in article nielsmm nanna imv aau dk nielsmm imv aau dk niels mikkel michelsen writes the other day it was raining cats and dogs therefor i was going only to the speed limit on nothing more on my bike this guy in his bmw was driving meters behind me for meters and at the next red light i calmly put the bike on its leg walked back to this car he rolled down the window and i told him he was a total idiot and the reason why did i do the right thing absolutely unless you are in the u s then the cager will pull a gun and blow you away bob mugele jungle bob email rmugele oracle com senior computational linguist phone oracle corp moto gs es concours irving texas dod if vegetarians eat vegetables beware of the humanitarians dr bob
rec.motorcycles	re got my bike was wanted advice on cb c purchase in article apr ll mit edu jburnside ll mit edu jamie w burnside writes sure is alot harder to load on a trailer than the kdx was i should be road legal tomorrow i am ignoring the afforementioned concerns about the transmission and taking my chances there should be no worries about the trans being a reletively new reader i am quite impressed with all the usefull info available on this newsgroup i would ask how to get my own dod number but i ll probably be too busy riding does this count cat dod faq mailx s hahahha jburnside ll mit edu waiting to press return later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	re what about no fault in article galileo rtn ca boeing com meb galileo rtn ca boeing com michael bain writes insurance companies sure seem to go for no fault coverage since the majority of accidents are the cagers fault doesn t this imply that we would have to pay much higher rates under a no fault system with a cars only system it seems to make sense on the surface take the legal costs out of the system but it looks like motorcyclists would get screwed yup unfortunately as has been pointed out the cost of insurance does not go down with no fault the crappiest drivers make out like bandits because they no longer have to bear the responsibility of paying for insurance that they have boosted in price for themselves by being crappy drivers the good drivers now pay through the nose to spread the cost of the crappy drivers actions and that s not fair any plan that caps rates for crappy drivers is inherently a piece of shit because the rest of us end up paying more any plan that uses speeding tickets as a basis for raising rates is also a piece of shit as it is based upon the lie that faster drivers are inherently less safe than slower drivers and the nhtsa disproved that two years ago now later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	re observation re helmets maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer writes grf dropped my shoei rf off the seat of my bike while trying to rock it onto it s centerstand chipped the heck out of the paint on it so i cheerfully spent on a bottle of testor s model paint and repainted the scratches and chips for minutes the question for the day is re passenger helmets if you don t know for certain who s gonna ride with you like say you meet them at a church meeting yeah that s the ticket what are some guidelines should i just pick up another shoei in my size to have a backup helmet xl or should i maybe get an inexpensive one of a smaller size to accomodate my likely passenger do i have to be the one to say it don t be so stupid as to leave your helmet on the seat where it can fall down and go boom that kind of fall is what the helmet is designed to protect against if you fall with the helmet on and you hit the same spot the helmet landed on during the drop the helmet may not protect your head as well as it was intended to do conservative rec moto ers will recommend that you replace the helmet if you want to be sure that it will protect you adequately you should helmets go on the ground on a table on a chair on a shelf or on any other surface that is large enough to support them so that they will not easily be knocked down jeezus my new shoei would be to replace you think i m going to leave it to chance cripe later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	re riceburner respect in article apr cbnewsm cb att com shz mare att com keeper of the tude writes the rider pilot of practically every riceburner i ve passed recently has waved to me and i m wondering if it will last could they simply be overexuberant that their burners have been removed from winter moth balls and the novelty will soon dissipate perhaps the gray beard that sprouted since the last rice season makes them think i m a friendly old fart that deserves a wave maybe then again did you get rid of that h d of yorn and buy a rice rocket of your own that would certainly explain the friendliness unless you maybe had a piece of toilet paper stuck on the bottom of your boot rich rich bemben dod rbemben timewarp prime com triumph bonneville x fear not the evil men do in the name of evil but heaven protect us from the evil men do in the name of good
rec.motorcycles	re motorcycle detailing tip chuck kuczaj csk wdl wdl loral com wrote mbeaving bnr ca michael beavington writes mcguire s makes a plastic scratch removing compound and a plastic polishing compound which really work great as well a useful tip how about someone letting me know motorcycle detailing tip the far side of my instrument panel was scuffed when the previous owner dumped the bike same is true for one of the turn signals both of the scuffed areas are black plastic i recall reading somewhere that there was some plastic compound you could coat the scuffed areas with then rub it down ending with a nice smooth shiny finish anyone any ideas thanks tony tony jones ant cray com uunet cray ant cmcs codegeneration group software division cray research inc f lone oak drive eagan mn
rec.motorcycles	re edu breaths in article apr rtsg mot com svoboda rtsg mot com david svoboda writes in article apr rtsg mot com declrckd rtsg mot com dan j declerck writes the difference of opinion and difference in motorcycling between the sport bike riders and the cruiser bike riders that difference is only in the minds of certain closed minded individuals i have had the very best motorcycling times with riders of cruiser bikes hi don eddie yet i ride anything but continuously on this forum and on the street you find quite a difference between the opinions of what motorcycling is to different individuals cruiser bike riders have a different view of motorcycling than those of sport bike riders what they like and dislike about motorcycling this is not closed minded to not recognize this is in effect close minded a lot of it reminded me of rec motorcycles and the insipid flame age thereof if you so dislike it my occasionally leather clad poser pal why read it i scan it for information a lot of it is noise and pointless flame age it s why i used trn instead of rn if you have a problem with that i m really sorry for you dan declerck email declrckd rtsg mot com motorola cellular apd friends don t let friends wear neon phone
rec.motorcycles	re edu breaths in article apr rtsg mot com declrckd rtsg mot com dan j declerck writes in article apr rtsg mot com svoboda rtsg mot com david svoboda writes in article apr rtsg mot com declrckd rtsg mot com dan j declerck writes the difference of opinion and difference in motorcycling between the sport bike riders and the cruiser bike riders that difference is only in the minds of certain closed minded individuals i have had the very best motorcycling times with riders of cruiser bikes hi don eddie yet i ride anything but continuously on this forum and on the street you find quite a difference between the opinions of what motorcycling is to different individuals yes yes yes motorcycling is slightly different to each and every one of us this is the nature of people and one of the beauties of the sport cruiser bike riders have a different view of motorcycling than those of sport bike riders what they like and dislike about motorcycling this is not closed minded and what view exactly is it that every single rider of cruiser bikes holds a veiw that of course no sport bike rider could possibly hold please quantify your generalization for us careful now you re trying to pigeonhole a whole bunch of people dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com i m getting tired of concours mmmmmmmmmm beating you up dave rz ring ding woops you never learn ama dod cog chicago beth bruiser dixon
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post in article apr rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes on a waterski bike you turn the handlebars left to lean right just like on a motorcycle i don t think this is the case at least not on all jetskis on my friend s jetski bars turn left to go left anyway all you re doing there is changing the yaw of the jets so the relationship between the handlbars and the rear mounted jets is completely arbitrary simple linkage could make it work either way so this supports the move the contact patch from beneath the centre of mass theory on how to lean this contradicts the need for gyroscopic precession to have a countersteering induced lean it seems to me that jetskis are even more irrelevant to this discussion than snow skis but it has been an amusing digression hey ed how do you explain the fact that you pull on a horse s reins left to go left or am i confusing two threads here phil stone new address pstone well sf ca us r st motorcycles ok
rec.motorcycles	re ggrrrrrr cages double parking motorc egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher writes in article castle ed ac uk wbg festival ed ac uk w geake writes ultra sticky labels printed with your favourite curse are good even our local hospitals use them instead of wheel clamps putting one about a size on each window of the cage an apartment complex where i used to live tried this only they put the thing over the driver s window so they couldn t miss it a friend damned near wrecked on the way home one night her vision blocked by the sticker i suggested to the manager the enormous liability they were assuming by pulling that stunt not that logic has anything to do with it but i can see the liability of putting stickers on the car while it was moving or something but it s the bdi that chooses to start and then drive the car in a known unsafe condition that would seem to be liable furthermore they would have had the last chance to avoid an unsafe situation which is an additional factor in attributing blame anyway stickers on the window are less effective no one has any problem taking a blade to a window to remove a stubborn sticker but it s a different story with that that nice paint job on the door jeff jeffrey e f friedl omron corporation nagaokakyo kyoto japan jfriedl omron co jp jfriedl cs cmu edu dod n xbk cbr r visiting researcher to the mach project carnegie mellon pittsburgh
rec.motorcycles	splitfire plugs kinda offical yo whaz up earlier i was reading on the net about using splitfire plugs one guy was thinking about it and almost everybody shot him to hell well i saw one think that someone said about show me a team that used split fires well here s some additional insight and some theories about splitfire plugs and how they boost us as oppossed to cages splitfires were originally made to burn fuel more efficiently and increased power for the x cages well for these guys splitfires increased performance by increasing torque they weren t focusing on horsepower numbers now how does this related to us high performance pilots well that depends do you pilot a high performance or cylinder machine in the case of cylinders splitfires would increase overall torque but s make more top end horsepower with its torque packed down low so for s splitfires would not significantly increase power but what about twins many of you guys laugh at some of us twins but many times we carry less weight which sometimes can make up for the hp loss see doug polen vs scott russell daytona however twins make more torque thoughout their powerbands so how does this translate increased torque should theoretically help twins make more power splitfire claims that there should be not extra mods or anything made just stick em in now i don t know about all of this and i m trying to catch up with somebody about it now but splitfires should help twins more than s as far as racing teams ducati team fast by ferraci used splitfires in the season this is when they had jamie james running for em but i don t know why they stopped since then also somebody check to see if they had them in peace warren wcd uxa cso uiuc edu have suzuki will travel at a local fix er up er shop the bike repairest looked at a dumped zx then he asked the guy what happened i dumped the clutch how fast pretty fast insurance nope the fixer smiled what do you know about bikes not much
rec.motorcycles	re how to act in front of traffic jerks in article rmugele apr oasun oracle com robert mugele rmugele oracle com writes absolutely unless you are in the u s then the cager will pull a gun and blow you away well i would guess the probability of a bmw driver having a gun would be lower than some other vehicles at least i would be more likely to say something to someone in a luxosedan than a hopped up pickup truck for example mark mark s burnham markb wc novell com ama dod alfa romeo gtv ninja
rec.motorcycles	re ed must be a daemon child in article apr research nj nec com behanna syl syl nj nec com chris behanna writes in article bethdc g h i netcom com bethd netcom com beth dixon writes bzzzzt it was me until i discovered my sr touring bike has a nifty little cache on it for things like coins or lipstick the new duc ss doesn t so i ll have to go back to carrying my lipstick in my jacket pocket life is so hard am i the only denizen who thinks that the natural look is the best look the thought of kissing that waxy shit smeared all over a woman s lips is a definite turn off so does clear lipstick chapstick etc fit under the natural look or the waxy shit category i wear something on my lips to keep them from drying out kissing dry cracked parched lips isn t too fun either not that i ll ever be kissing beth or noemi not if tom has anything to say about it you won t noemi speaks for herself beth beth the one true beth dixon bethd netcom com yamaha sr excitable girl dod yamaha sr spike the garage rat fssnoc ducati ss ama ducati monza restoration project kqspt i can keep a handle on anything just this side of deranged zz top
rec.motorcycles	re boom dog attack in article uupcb compdyn questor org ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau writes my previous posting on dog attacks must have generated some bad karma or something i ve weathered attempted dog attacks before using the approved method slow down to screw up dog s triangulation of target then take off and laugh at the dog now far behind you this time it didn t work because i didn t have time riding up the hill leading to my house i encountered a liver and white springer spaniel no relation to the springer softail or the springer spagthorpe a close relation to the spagthorpe viking actually the dog encountered me with intent to harm stuff deleted ryan cousinetc yamaha vision xz black pig of inverness live to ride kotrb ajs c s king rat to work to dod i d be a squid if i could afford the bike flame to ryan cousineau compdyn questor org vancouver bc canada live i sure hope you got the cost of a replacement panel out of the owner here if the owner should seem reluctant a stop by the local spca preferably with your foot leg all swollen up to file a viscious dog report would do the trick g glenn schmall astroid armory com do not cross the oncoming lanes of r from hell beaming to cafe near death that are californias highways you yeah i got a dod so what sj mercury news
rec.motorcycles	re women s jackets was ed must be a daemon child in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu jhensley nyx cs du edu john hensley writes beth dixon bethd netcom com wrote new duc ss doesn t so i ll have to go back to carrying my lipstick in my jacket pocket life is so hard my wife is looking for a jacket and most of the men s styles she s tried don t fit too well if they fit the shoulders and arms they re too tight across the chest or something like that anyone have any suggestions i m assuming that the v pilot in addition to its handy storage facilities is a pretty decent fit is there any company that makes a reasonable line of women s motorcycling stuff more importantly does anyone in boulder or denver know of a shop that bothers carrying any i was very lucky i found a jacket i liked that actually fits hg makes the v pilot jackets mine is a very similar style made by just leather in san jose i bought one of the last two they ever made finding decent womens motorcycling gear is not easy there is a lot of stuff out there that s fringed everywhere made of fashion leather made to fit men etc i don t know of a shop in your area there are some women rider friendly places in the san francisco san jose area but i don t recommend buying clothing mail order too hard to tell if it ll fit bates custom makes leathers you might want to call them they re in l a and get a cost estimate for the type of jacket your wife is interested in large manufacturers like bmw and h g sell women s lines of clothing of decent quality but fit is iffy a while ago noemi and lisa sieverts were talking about starting a business doing just this sort of thing don t know what they finally decided beth beth the one true beth dixon bethd netcom com yamaha sr excitable girl dod yamaha sr spike the garage rat fssnoc ducati ss ama ducati monza restoration project kqspt i can keep a handle on anything just this side of deranged zz top
rec.motorcycles	re how to act in front of traffic jerks in article nielsmm nanna imv aau dk nielsmm imv aau dk niels mikkel michelsen writes from nielsmm imv aau dk niels mikkel michelsen subject how to act in front of traffic jerks date thu apr gmt the other day it was raining cats and dogs therefor i was going only to the speed limit on nothing more on my bike this guy in his bmw was driving meters behind me for meters and at the next red light i calmly put the bike on its leg walked back to this car he rolled down the window and i told him he was a total idiot and the reason why did i do the right thing it works for me i avoid obscenities and try to remain calm cool and collected and try something like you almost just killed me and i m not moving until you apologize or something more or less benign like that i haven t been shot a single time but i don t do it in texas and i do only do it when there are plenty of witnesses around steve steve l moseley moseley u washington edu microbiology sc phone university of washington fax seattle wa
rec.motorcycles	kreme hi folks recently saw one post about kreme being a bad idea but that was only one man s opinion any one else have any experience with the stuff
rec.motorcycles	aerostitch or piece request for opinions which is better a one piece aerostitch or a two piece aerostitch we re looking for more than well the pc is more versatile but the pc is better protection thanks in advance nadine
rec.motorcycles	re observation re helmets in article qk oi d i sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher writes if your primary concern is protecting the passenger in the event of a crash have him or her fitted for a helmet that is their size if your primary concern is complying with stupid helmet laws carry a real big spare you can put a big or small head in a big helmet but not in a small one so what should i carry if i want to comply with intelligent helmet laws the above comment in no way implies support for any helmet law nor should such support be inferred a promise is a promise steve steve l moseley moseley u washington edu microbiology sc phone university of washington fax seattle wa
rec.motorcycles	re v max handling request in article apr ntuvax ntu ac sg ba ntuvax ntu ac sg writes hello there ican anyone who has handson experience on riding the yamaha v max pls kindly comment on its handling depends on in what context you want it commented on it handles great compared to some bikes not so good compared to others what would you like it compared to yes i ve put a few miles on one although i ve never owned one randy davis email randy megatek com zx pilot uunet ucsd megatek randy dod but this one goes to eleven nigel tufnel spinal tap
rec.motorcycles	re observation re helmets in article qk oi d i sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes in article mavenry altcit eskimo com maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer writes the question for the day is re passenger helmets if you don t know for certain who s gonna ride with you like say you meet them at a church meeting yeah that s the ticket what are some guidelines should i just pick up another shoei in my size to have a backup helmet xl or should i maybe get an inexpensive one of a smaller size to accomodate my likely passenger if your primary concern is protecting the passenger in the event of a crash have him or her fitted for a helmet that is their size if your primary concern is complying with stupid helmet laws carry a real big spare you can put a big or small head in a big helmet but not in a small one well you can accomplish both goals actually if you have a definite physical type in mind when you go to these cough church meetings if your tastes tend to smaller more petite cough churchgoers it is more likely that they will have a smaller head and you can safely get a medium or small helmet this works for me and i traded my spare large helmet with my best friend who at tends to look more for women that are over and can t usually fit into the medium size helmet he previously had of course if you aren t picky what size cough churchgoers you give helpful motorcycle rides to then ed s advice will hopefully cover any eventuality as far as legality is concerned and a spare handtowel in the tankbag makes acceptable padding so the passenger can see out of the viewport rather than the padding above the viewport in the cases of extreme mismatch randy davis email randy megatek com zx pilot uunet ucsd megatek randy dod but this one goes to eleven nigel tufnel spinal tap
rec.motorcycles	re ducati opinions wanted in article c i hm jwc srgenprp sr hp com frankb sad hp com frank ball writes godfrey digiorgi ramarren apple com wrote the ducati model is essentially a reduced displacement which means it weighs the same and is the same size as the with far less power it is produced specifically to meet a vehicle tax restriction the ducati model is essentially a reduced displacement which means it weighs the same and is the same size as the with far less power and less brakes bzzzt the ss is pounds lighter than the ss i personally and recently witnessed my ss do a stoppie with a larger than average rider aboard he said it took two fingers on that measely single front disk to accomplish the task how much more brake do you need as such it s somewhat large and overweight for its motor it will still handle magnificently it just won t be very fast there are very few other flaws to mention the limited steering lock is the annoyance noted by most testers and the mirrors aren t perfect i haven t gone over rpm yet still in break in and haven t had a problem with the ss being too slow the limited steering lock can be a problem if you aren t prepared for it the mirrors are very good imho someone forgot to tell their designer about the whazza behind you she no matta philosophy hewlett packard fax home valley house drive it xt seca f pl hmmmm i don t see a or ss in your sig did i miss something beth beth the one true beth dixon bethd netcom com yamaha sr excitable girl dod yamaha sr spike the garage rat fssnoc ducati ss ama ducati monza restoration project kqspt i can keep a handle on anything just this side of deranged zz top
rec.motorcycles	re choking ninja problem starr kuhub cc ukans edu writes i need help with my zx a i put supertrapp slip on s on it and had the carbs re jetted to match a set of k n filters that replaced the stock airbox ahh and just how were the carbs rejeted to match the changes you made to the bike a stage three kit from k n or dynojet now i have a huge flat spot in the carburation at about thousand rpm in most any gear isn t rejetting fun this is especially frustrating on the highway the bike likes to cruise at about mph which happens to be rpm in sixth gear i ve had it tuned and this doesn t seem to help i am thinking about new carbs or the injection system from a gpz does anyone have any suggestions for a fix besides restoring it to stock new carbs why would that fix it you still have to get the jetting right to match what seems to be a extremely overly lean condition you added a more free flowing exhaust and then higher flowing filters chances are it s to lean but this may not be that s the big fun with carb tuning it s very tricky your one and only choice unless you want to spend many hours fiddling with the carbs is to take it to a guy witha dyno and have he tune the carbs for your current set up otherwise you ll be playing a guessing game for a long time erik astrup afm dod cbr rr cbr concours ninja this one goes to eleven nigel tufnel lead guitar spinal tap
rec.motorcycles	re long lasting tires for small bike wsh z amsun apma virginia edu will heyman writes no rear tires as small as there are some fronts though so get a instead is there anything that size any other recomendations call the tire companies yourself and tell them what you have they can make recomendations for you that s your best bet check a biker magazine cycle world etc for phone numbers it s possible there are no other tires available though erik astrup afm dod cbr rr cbr concours ninja this one goes to eleven nigel tufnel lead guitar spinal tap
rec.motorcycles	re edu breaths in article apr rtsg mot com svoboda rtsg mot com david svoboda writes in article apr rtsg mot com declrckd rtsg mot com dan j declerck writes in article apr rtsg mot com svoboda rtsg mot com david svoboda writes in article apr rtsg mot com declrckd rtsg mot com dan j declerck writes the difference of opinion and difference in motorcycling between the sport bike riders and the cruiser bike riders that difference is only in the minds of certain closed minded individuals i have had the very best motorcycling times with riders of cruiser bikes hi don eddie yet i ride anything but continuously on this forum and on the street you find quite a difference between the opinions of what motorcycling is to different individuals yes yes yes motorcycling is slightly different to each and every one of us this is the nature of people and one of the beauties of the sport cruiser bike riders have a different view of motorcycling than those of sport bike riders what they like and dislike about motorcycling this is not closed minded and what view exactly is it that every single rider of cruiser bikes holds a veiw that of course no sport bike rider could possibly hold please quantify your generalization for us careful now you re trying to pigeonhole a whole bunch of people that plastic bodywork is useless that torque and an upright riding position is better than a slightly or radically forward riding position combined with a high rpm low torque motor to a cruiser motorcyclist chrome has some importance to sport bike motorcyclists chrome has very little impact on buying choice unless motivated solely by price these are the criteria each rider uses to select the vehicle of choice to ignore these as well as other criteria would be insensitive in other words no one motorcycle can fufill the requirements that a sport bike rider and a cruiser rider may have sometimes it s hard for any motorcycle to fufill a person s requirements you re fishing for flames dave this difference of opinion is analogous to the difference between sports car owners and luxury car owners this is a moot conversation dan declerck email declrckd rtsg mot com motorola cellular apd friends don t let friends wear neon phone
rec.motorcycles	re shipping a bike in article qkhrm go agate berkeley edu manish uclink berkeley edu manish vij writes can someone recommend how to ship a motorcycle from san francisco to seattle and how much might it cost i remember a thread on shipping if someone saved the instructions on bike prep please post em again or email thanks manish step join the ama american motorcycling association call ama join step after you become a member they will ship your bike uncrated to just about anywhere across the fruited plain for a few hundred bucks i have used this service and have been continually pleased they usually only take a few days for the whole thing and you do not have to prepare the bike in any way other than draining the gas not to mention that it is about of the normal shipping costs by the time you crate a bike and ship it with another company you can pay around nick coburn dod ama cbr cbr coburnn spot colorado edu
rec.motorcycles	re bmw moa members read this in article c joz hln cup hp com chris steinbroner hesh cup hp com writes wm l ranck ranck joesbar cc vt edu wrote as a new bmw owner i was thinking about signing up for the moa but right now it is beginning to look suspiciously like throwing money down a rathole i m going to let my current membership lapse when it s up for renewal hesh in my case that s not for another years so i d appreciate any hints on what will keep the organization in business that long and preferably longer of course and worth being part of david karr karr cs cornell edu
rec.motorcycles	re tracing license plates of bdi cagers in article apr adobe com cjackson adobe com curtis jackson wrote good advice of course thanks hesh time to go back for a zen refresher course imagine you are a lily gently floating in a still darkened pool and some bdc in a volvo comes careening off the freeway and lands on top of you in said pool you can t win jim jim franklin jamesf apple com jim bob sons cagiva alazzurra signature remodling triumph slalom champ low price quality workman dod kotp un ship call today for free estimit
rec.motorcycles	need help getting saddle bags hey i m pretty new to the wonderful world of motorcycles i just bought a used kaw kz csr from a friend i was just wondering what kind of saddle bags i could get for it since i know nothing about them are there bags for the gas tank how much would some cost and how much do they hold thanks for your advice i may be new to riding but i love it already jbourgui ucs indiana edu dod
rec.motorcycles	saddle bags and helmets for sale i m selling the following items a pair of hard saddle bags easy installation snap release feature with lock black brand is krusures two oshi full face helmets take all for these are comming off of my bike that i m selling maybe you could use the whole thing bike and accessories yamaha vision call medi work home thanks medi montaseri montasmm ntmtv com ames mcdcup ntmtv montasmm
rec.motorcycles	re observation re helmets in article mavenry altcit eskimo com maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer writes grf dropped my shoei rf off the seat of my bike while trying to rock it onto it s centerstand chipped the heck out of the paint on it congraulations your helmet just passed the snell test so i cheerfully spent on a bottle of testor s model paint and repainted the scratches and chips for minutes oh well as least it looks ok now still it may not save your head as well as before you dropped it mike mike seales yamaha xj same as fj inform group ltd dod level db tower the terrace email homer inform co nz wellington phone new zealand fax
rec.motorcycles	stolen cbr rr stolen from pasadena between and pm on blue and white honda cbr rr california plate kg cbr serial number jh sc xpm engine number no turn signals or mirrors lights taped over for track riders session at willow springs tomorrow guess i ll miss it help me find my baby kjg
rec.motorcycles	re shipping a bike can someone recommend how to ship a motorcycle from san francisco to seattle and how much might it cost i d recommend that you hop on the back of it and cruise that s a really nice ride if you choose your route with any care at all shouldn t cost more than about in gas and maybe a night s motel bill mellon mellon ncd com uunet lupine mellon member of the league for programming freedom to find out how software patents may cost you your right to program contact lpf uunet uu net
rec.motorcycles	re v max handling request bradw newbridge com brad warkentin writes seriously handling is probably as good as the big standards of the early s but not compareable to whats state of the art these days i think you have to go a little further back this opinion comes from riding cb s gs s kz s and a v max i find no enjoyment in riding a v max fast on a twisty road clayton t brooks from the heart cbrooks ms uky edu pot u o ky of the blue cbrooks ukma bitnet lex ky grass and rutgers uunet ukma cbrooks bourbon country ama nma maa ams acbl dod
rec.motorcycles	re bmw moa members read this can i resign bmw moa and get the remainder of my year membership refunded
rec.motorcycles	re riceburner respect in article oxz b w w cellar org craig cellar org saint craig writes shz mare att com keeper of the tude writes no anyone who is a true rider with the real riding attitude will offer a wave weather they are on a harley or on a honda or some other bike inless they have a serious case of my bike is better than your and you re too low to be acknowleged this you ll find is the case with most of the harley riders out here where i am however i still give them a wave and ride secure in the knowlege that i m a better persob than they are persob i kinda like that most people wave or return my wave when i m on my harley other harley riders seldom wave back to me when i m on my duck squids don t wave or return waves ever even to each other from what i can tell michael manning mmanning icomsim com nextmail accepted flstf fatboy ducati ss
rec.motorcycles	re tracing license plates of bdi cagers in article apr i isc com jeq lachman com jonathan e quist wrote you could file a complaint for dangerous operation of a motor vehicle and sign it be willing to show up in court if it comes to it no you can do this really the other morning i went to do a lane change on the freeway and looked in my mirror theer was a car there but far enough behind i looked again about seconds later car still in same position i e not accelerating i triple check with a head turn and decide i have plenty of room so i do it accelerating i travel about mile staying feet off teh bumper of the car ahead and i do a casual mirror check this guy is right on my tail i mean you couldn t stick a hair between my tire his fender i keep looking in the mirror at him a d slowly let off teh throttle he stays there until i had lost about mph and then comes around me and cuts me off big time i follow him for about miles and finally get bored and turn back into work i can file a complaint about this and actually have the chance to have something done how who where jim jim franklin jamesf apple com jim bob sons cagiva alazzurra signature remodling triumph slalom champ low price quality workman dod kotp un ship call today for free estimit
rec.motorcycles	re got my bike was wanted advice on cb c purchase in article apr research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna writes in article apr ll mit edu jburnside ll mit edu jamie w burnside writes sure is alot harder to load on a trailer than the kdx was i should be road legal tomorrow i am ignoring the afforementioned concerns about the transmission and taking my chances there should be no worries about the trans being a reletively new reader i am quite impressed with all the usefull info available on this newsgroup i would ask how to get my own dod number but i ll probably be too busy riding does this count yes he thought about it cat dod faq mailx s hahahha jburnside ll mit edu waiting to press return later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs jack waters ii dod i don t fear the thief in the night its the one that comes in the afternoon when i m still asleep that i worry about
rec.motorcycles	re shipping a bike in article mellon apr pepper ncd com mellon ncd com ted lemon writes can someone recommend how to ship a motorcycle from san francisco to seattle and how much might it cost i d recommend that you hop on the back of it and cruise that s a really nice ride if you choose your route with any care at all shouldn t cost more than about in gas and maybe a night s motel bill yes up the coast over to portland then up i really nice most of the way and i m sure there s even better ways watch the weather though i got about as good a drenching as possible in the oregon coast range once howard berkey howard netcom com help
rec.motorcycles	re stolen aarghhhh dam dam dam ritvax isc rit edu writes dam i get back drom work today look at me bike before dam proceding in side i nearly shit my new dry rider cover is dam gone barely two weeks old and already gone god am somebody stole my trashed old honda red white blue cover off a kz ltd in residential palo alto a couple of weeks ago the cover had holes burnt in it around the exhaust etc etc i figured it was just kids but maybe not jet netcom com j eric townsend r r dod hafta kill you this is my fun account work email goes to jet nas nasa gov you got to put down the ducky if you wanna play saxophone skate unix or die boyo
rec.motorcycles	changing sprocket ratios honda cb do any honda gurus know if i can replace the the front sprocket on my honda cb k with a slightly larger one i see this as being preferable to reducing the size of the rear one just wanting ride at a more relaxed rpm clayton t brooks from the heart cbrooks ms uky edu pot u o ky of the blue cbrooks ukma bitnet lex ky grass and rutgers uunet ukma cbrooks bourbon country ama nma maa ams acbl dod
rec.motorcycles	re bmw moa members read this oh boy a little k bike versus scuffling grow up and that goes for the both of you i do hope that the dump dempster campaign works however i think that he is a crook and i am suprised that it has taken this long for anything to be done though obviously it ain t over yet on the other hand i m not sure that i want to be in bed with any of the wackos running throwing oo down a rathole might be more effective than sending it in to the club you wouldn t get anything but you don t get anything now the magazine you say ever since the moa politburo installed don it has lacked any sort of panache it may have had ah but what would i know i own a and a k bike static moa
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post in article apr adobe com cjackson adobe com curtis jackson writes so perhaps it is only some waterski bikes on which one countersteers a sea doo is a boat it turns by changing the angle of the duct behind the propeller a waterski bike looks like a motorcycle but has a ski where each wheel should be its handlebars are connected through a familiar looking steering head to the front ski it handles like a motorcycle i ve bike like jody levine dod kv got a you can if you pf jody p levine hydro on ca ride it toronto ontario canada
rec.motorcycles	re ed must be a daemon child in article bethdc jul l netcom com bethd netcom com beth dixon writes in article apr research nj nec com behanna syl syl nj nec com chris behanna writes in article bethdc g h i netcom com bethd netcom com beth dixon writes bzzzzt it was me until i discovered my sr touring bike has a nifty little cache on it for things like coins or lipstick the new duc ss doesn t so i ll have to go back to carrying my lipstick in my jacket pocket life is so hard am i the only denizen who thinks that the natural look is the best look the thought of kissing that waxy shit smeared all over a woman s lips is a definite turn off so does clear lipstick chapstick etc fit under the natural look or the waxy shit category i wear something on my lips to keep them from drying out kissing dry cracked parched lips isn t too fun either agreed but yes chapstick fits under the waxy shit category although i ve noticed that stealing annette s chapstick after she s applied it kept my lips from cracking this past winter like they have in all previous winters sigh the price i must pay not that i ll ever be kissing beth or noemi not if tom has anything to say about it you won t noemi speaks for herself so does my darling annette okay i guess you can ready the barf bags now later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	re shipping a bike can someone recommend how to ship a motorcycle from san francisco to seattle and how much might it cost i shipped my k s from portland oregon to daytona for this years bike week i rode it back the company i used is the federal co s you can reach them at ex you either have to be a ama member or maybe it is just a discount for ama not sure call ama join to become an ama member the shipping cost is based on the number of miles it cost me about for portland to orlando of that was insurance all i had to do is ride it to the shipping dock and siphon the gas out i think they can also pick up the bike from any business the bike arrived on time at orlando all i had to do was adjust the mirrors and add gas the bike was in perfect shape gary
rec.motorcycles	re bikes vs horses was re insect impac cooper mprgate mpr ca greg cooper writes in article qeftj d i sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com ed green in article sda usenet ins cwru edu ai cleveland freenet edu mike sturde only exceptional ones like me average ones like you can barely fart by themselves fuck you very much mike gentlemen please greg s obviously confused there aren t many any gentlemen on this newsgroup well maybe one or two robert smits ladysmith bc if lucas built weapons wars emd ham almanac bc ca would never start either
rec.motorcycles	re recommendation for a front tire in article qfkqhinn s rodan uu net smm rodan uu net steve mansfield writes yes my front tire is all but dead it has minimal tread left so it s time for a new one any recommendations on a good tire in front i m riding on an almost brand new me a in back stick an me on the front i ve got a laser on the front of my gpz and it has been a fantastic tire best front tire i ve ever had graeme weir dod fido c a unb ca university of new brunswick fredericton nb canada damn the box jockeys full speed ahead live to flame flame to live gpz kz kz trek mtb
rec.motorcycles	re long trips in article uupcb freddy ersys edmonton ab ca mark harrison freddy ersys edmonton ab ca mark harrison writes i am new to motorcycliing i e don t even have a bike yet and will be going on a long trip from edmonton to vancouver any tips on bare essentials for the trip tools clothing emergency repairs er without a bike ed maybe you ought to respond to this how you gonna get there if yer going by cage what s this got to do with r m i am also in the market for a used cycle any tips on what to look for so i don t get burnt much appreciated mark maybe somebody oughta gang tool faq this guy hmmm andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	re how to act in front of traffic jerks nielsmm imv aau dk niels mikkel michelsen writes did i do the right thing denmark eh should have taken a short sword and cleaved his car in half since i assume you didn t have a short sword on you i certainly have no problems with your choice of substitute action dan sorenson dod z dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what i read not what i say don t blame them usenet post to exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them
rec.motorcycles	re boom dog attack ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau writes riding up the hill leading to my house i encountered a liver and white springer spaniel no relation to the springer softail or the springer spagthorpe a close relation to the spagthorpe viking i must have missed the article on the spagthorpe viking was that the one with the little illuminated dragon s head on the front fender a style later copied by indian and the round side covers accident deleted what worries me about the accident is this i don t think i could have prevented it except by traveling much slower than i was this is not necessarily an unreasonable suggestion for a residential area but i was riding around the speed limit you can forget this line of reasoning when an animal decides to take you there s nothing you can do about it it has something to do with their genetics i was putting along at a mere mph or so gravel road with few loose rocks on it as in just like bad concrete and lbs of swinging beef jumped a fence came out of the ditch and rammed me when i saw her jump the fence i went for the gas since she was about feet ahead of me but a good forty to the side damn cow literally chased me down and nailed me no damage to cow a bent case guard and a severely annoyed rider were the only casualties if i had my shotgun i d still be eating steak nope if lbs of cow can hit me when i m actively evading forget a much more manueverable dog just run them over dan sorenson dod z dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what i read not what i say don t blame them usenet post to exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them
rec.motorcycles	re flashing anyone behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna writes just before arriving at a toll booth i switch the hazards on i do thisto warn other motorists that i will be taking longer than the seconds to make the transaction my question is this a good bad thing to do this sounds like a very good thing to do i ll second that in addition i find my hazards to be more often used than my horn at speeds below mph on the interstates quite common in mountains with trucks some states require flashers in rural areas flashers let the guy behind you know there is a tractor with a rather large implement behind it in the way use them whenever you need to communicate that things will deviate from the norm chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name is that zx painted green since the green triumph that a friend owned was sold off her name is now free for adoption how does the name thunderpickle grab you dan sorenson dod z dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what i read not what i say don t blame them usenet post to exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them
rec.motorcycles	re v max handling request in apr ntuvax ntu ac sg ba ntuvax ntu ac sg writes ican anyone who has handson experience on riding the yamaha v max pls kindly comment on its handling the v max goes in a strait line like shit shrough a goose in the corners i d rather ride a honda dream dan sorenson dod z dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what i read not what i say don t blame them usenet post to exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them
rec.motorcycles	re bikes vs horses was re insect impacts f in article txd able mkt com com txd esd com com tom dietrich writes in a previous article egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher says lots of things none of which are quoted here in article rgu usenet ins cwru edu ai cleveland freenet edu mike sturdevant writes you think your average dirt biker can jump a foot log how about an log that is suspended about off of the ground for that matter how about a log that is suspended off of the ground oh ye of little imagination you don t jump over those that s where you lay the bike down and slide under jonathan e quist jeq lachman com lachman technology incorporated dod kotpp kotcf cl k gleep naperville il there s nothing quite like the pitter patter of little feet followed by the words daddy yay
rec.motorcycles	battery storage why not charge and store dry so it looks like i m going to have to put a couple of bikes in storage for a few months starting several months from now and i m already contemplating how to do it so they re as easy to get going again as possible i have everything under control i think besides the batteries i know that if i buy a battery tender for each one and leave them plugged in the whole time the bikes are in storage they ll be fine but i m not sure that s necessary i ve never heard anyone discussing this idea so maybe there s some reason why it isn t so great but maybe someone can tell me would it be a mistake to fully charge the batteries drain the electrolyte into separate containers one for each battery seal the container close up the batteries and leave them that way then it would seem that when the bikes come out of storage i could put the electrolyte back in the batteries and they should still be fully charged what s wrong with this on a related but different note for you bay area denizens wasn t there someone who had a bunch of spare edta a few months back who was it is there still any of it left thanks for any and all help robert
rec.motorcycles	re should liability insurance be required in article apr newbridge com bradw newbridge com brad warkentin writes in article apr rtsg mot com svoboda rtsg mot com david svoboda writes sorry i lost the attributions in most areas drivers are required to show proof of financial responsibility which usually means insurance required how when they get pulled over most drivers bellyaching on the net aside don t get pulled over and checked the laws are enforceable only after the fact in which case often somebody is out a lot of money don t you have any requirement for yearly plate stickers in the us in ontario and manitoba for sure and the other provinces i think you have to show proof of insurnace when you renew your plate ie get a new sticker yes unfortunately there is also the concept that the owner of a car is not responsible for the actions of any authorized user of the car that s one of the biggest arguments against photo radar ticketing systems you also get to pay all outstanding tickets they even have cross province agreements at least between ontario and quebec so that unpaid tickets in the other province are on record no having an up to date sticker is a bad trouble with that is you then have no recourse if a mis issued ticket or a clerical error on a computer follow you around the city of chicago the informal motto of which being the city the works issues dozens of parking tickets each year to people who have never set foot or tire in the city jonathan e quist jeq lachman com lachman technology incorporated dod kotpp kotcf cl k gleep naperville il there s nothing quite like the pitter patter of little feet followed by the words daddy yay
rec.motorcycles	fortune guzzler barred from bars saw this in today s newspaper fortune guzzler barred from bars barnstaple england reuter a motorcyclist said to have drunk away a insurance payment in less than years was banned wednesday from every pub in england and wales david roberts had been awarded the cash in compensation for losing a leg in a motorcycle accident he spent virtually all of it on cider a court in barnstaple in southwest england was told judge malcolm coterill banned roberts from all bars in england and wales for months and put on two years probation after he started a brawl in a pub bruce clarke b c environment e mail bclarke galaxy gov bc ca
rec.motorcycles	solar battery chargers any good i ve seen solar battery boosters and they seem to come without any guarantee on the other hand i ve heard that some people use them with success although i have yet to communicate directly with such a person have you tried one what was your experience how did you use it occasional charging long term leave it for weeks etc robert kennedy robert kennedy office robert cs stanford edu home voice computer science dept stanford university home tty
rec.motorcycles	re please gentlemen in article cvbnetprime com tjohnson tazmanian prime com tod johnson x writes in article uupcb freddy ersys edmonton ab ca grant barkwell freddy ersys edmonton ab ca grant barkwell writes cp too my certain knowledge simply posessing a motorcycle cp can get you laid true oh so very thankfully true gentlemen please do us all a rather appropriate favor and excuse the comments about your sexual fortunes on the net it is hardly an tod i think you ve misspoke if they re banking on owning a motorcycle to get them laid then i doubt they have sexual fortunes quite the reverse jonathan e quist jeq lachman com lachman technology incorporated dod kotpp kotcf cl k gleep naperville il there s nothing quite like the pitter patter of little feet followed by the words daddy yay
rec.motorcycles	re happy easter in article apr hasler ascom ch kevinh hasler ascom ch writes ba were trying to sell rr to bmw even tested a bmw v in a corniche i think it will remain british for the time being until ba get hard up anyway rolls royce owned by a non british firm ye gods that would be the end of civilization as we know it jonathan e quist jeq lachman com lachman technology incorporated dod kotpp kotcf cl k gleep naperville il there s nothing quite like the pitter patter of little feet followed by the words daddy yay
rec.motorcycles	re live free but quietly or die in article qc fu c r sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes loud pipes are a biligerent exercise in ego projection no arguements following just the facts i was able to avoid an accident by revving my engine and having my stock harley pipes make enough noise to draw someones attention i instinctively revved my engine before i went for my horn don t know why but i did it and it worked thats rather important i am not saying the louder the pipes the better my harley is loud and it gets me noticed on the road for that reason i personally do not feel it is to loud if you do well thats to bad welcome to america home of the free land of the atlanta braves if you really want a fine tuned machine like our federal government to get involved and pass db restrictions it should be generous enough so that a move like revving your engine will get you noticed sure there are horns but my hand is already on the throttle should we get into how many feet a bike going mph goes in seconds or how long it would take me to push my horn button and aren t you the guy that doesn t even have a bike tod j johnson dod go slow take geritol
rec.motorcycles	re should liability insurance be required in article apr walter bellcore com fist iscp bellcore com richard pierson writes lets get this no fault stuff straight i lived in nj when nf started my rates went up alot moved to pa and my rates went down alot the nf came to pa and it was a different story if you are sitting in a parking lot having lunch or whatever and someone wacks you guess whose insurance pays for it give up yours only if you have a weeny insurance company unless it s some stupid pa law i know that if some jerk hits me while i m in a parking lot if my insruance company doesn t sue his or his doesn t immediately say yes it s his fault i ll sure him myself and tell my insurance company to go to hell if they raise my rates andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	re ggrrrrrr cages double parking motorc in article qjmf d i sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes in article castle ed ac uk wbg festival ed ac uk w geake writes ultra sticky labels printed with your favourite curse are good even our local hospitals use them instead of wheel clamps putting one about a size on each window of the cage an apartment complex where i used to live tried this only they put the thing over the driver s window so they couldn t miss it a friend damned near wrecked on the way home one night her vision blocked by the sticker i suggested to the manager the enormous liability they were assuming by pulling that stunt she claimed it was the driver who was at fault for illegally parking in the first place that would probably be good for a laugh or two in court before they found her liable for serious be careful about putting stickers on cages windows yeah make darn sure you cover all the glass so the driver can t reasonably expect to be able to drive with the things on the car jonathan e quist jeq lachman com lachman technology incorporated dod kotpp kotcf cl k gleep naperville il there s nothing quite like the pitter patter of little feet followed by the words daddy yay
rec.motorcycles	re fortune guzzler barred from bars bclarke galaxy gov bc ca writes saw this in today s newspaper fortune guzzler barred from bars barnstaple england reuter a motorcyclist said to have drunk away a insurance payment in less than years was banned wednesday from every pub in england and wales david roberts had been awarded the cash in compensation for losing a leg in a motorcycle accident he spent virtually all of it on cider a court in barnstaple in southwest england was told judge malcolm coterill banned roberts from all bars in england and wales for months and put on two years probation after he started a brawl in a pub is there no justice if i lost my leg when i was and had to give up motorcycling assuming david didn t know that it can be done one legged i too would want to get swamped maybe even for ten years i ll admit i d probably prefer homebrew to pubbrew but still judge coterill is in some serious trouble i can tell you that any chance you can get to him and convince him his ruling was backward nick perhaps the lad deserved something for starting a brawl bad form horribly bad form but for getting drunk that i thought was ones natural born right and for spending his own money my goodness who cares what one does with one s own moolah even if one spends it recklessly i m ashamed of humanity matt block koch dod honda cb
rec.motorcycles	re bmw moa members read this in article apr cs cornell edu karr cs cornell edu david karr writes riveting bmwmoa election soap opera details deleted well there doesn t seem to be any shortage of alternative candidates obviously you re not voting for mr vechorik but what about the others i m going to buy a bmw just to cast a vote for groucho ride safe cliff weston dod seca ii tem this bike is in excellent condition i ve done all the work on it myself glen crash stone
rec.motorcycles	re european m c insurance i moved to sweden and i have to take all the tests again written and road even though i had a valid us license for some years of course i became a resident and could drive on my us license until i became resident don t know about italy it s different in the eec
rec.motorcycles	re camping question in article bnr ca npet bnr ca nick pettefar writes back in my youth ahem the wiffy and moi purchased a gadget which heated up water from a v source it was for car use but we thought we d try it on my rd b it worked ok apart from one slight problem we had to keep the revs above any lower and the motor would die from lack of electron movement on my lc rz to any ex colonists i replaced the bolt at the bottom of the barrel with a tap when i wanted a coffee i could just rev the engine until boiling and pour out a cup of hot water i used ethylene glycol as antifreeze rather than methanol as it tastes sweeter roger collier uk sun com o o o o sun microsystems h coventry england u dod gsxr l keeper of the gsxr list
rec.motorcycles	re aerostitch or piece in article apr vax cit cornell edu na vax cit cornell edu writes request for opinions which is better a one piece aerostitch or a two piece aerostitch we re looking for more than well the pc is more versatile but the pc is better protection thanks in advance nadine i would be scared of trying to fit the one piece when i got my two piece i got the jacket in and the pants in just due to my manly man of an athletic build kind of thing no laughing please seriously i m not trim and the pants would have been way too big also i don t think the piece does provide better protection if i m wrong i ll be swiftly if ever so gently correct by the net pansies of knowledge as they like to call themselves regards jack waters ii dod i don t fear the thief in the night its the one that comes in the afternoon when i m still asleep that i worry about
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post leavitt cs umd edu mr bill writes mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith writes mjs also imho telling newbies about countersteering is er counter productive mjs cos it just confuses them i rode around quite happily for years mjs knowing nothing about countersteering i cannot say i ride any differently mjs now that i know about it i interpret this to mean that you re representative of every other motorcyclist in the world eh mike rather presumptive of you imho in my humble opinion leavitt cs umd edu mr bill writes leavitt the time to learn countersteering techniques is when you are first leavitt starting to learn before you develop any bad habits i rode for leavitt five years before taking my first course msf erc and learning leavitt about how to countersteer it s now eight years later and i still leavitt have to consciously tell myself don t steer countersteer old leavitt habits die hard and bad habits even harder mjs sorry bill but this is complete bollocks you learned how to countersteer mjs the first time you rode the bike it s natural and intuitive sorry mike i m not going to kick over the can you not countersteer over mph stone that one s been kicked around enough for the sake of argument i ll concede that it s countersteering sake of argument only mjs msf did not teach you how to countersteer it only told you what mjs you were already doing and there s no value in that i didn t say there was no value all i said was that it is very confusing to newbies there s a big difference in knowing what s happening and how to make it do it especially in the extreme case of an emergency swerve and just letting the bike do whatever it does to make itself turn once i knew precisely what was happening and how to make it do it abruptly and on command my emergency avoidance abilities improved tenfold not to mention a big improvement in my normal cornering ability i am much more proficient knowing how to countersteer the motorcycle rather than letting the motorcycle steer itself that is when i remember to take cognitive command of the bike rather than letting it run itself through the corners whereupon i return to my original comment better to learn what s happening right from the start and how to take charge of it rather than developing the bad habit of merely going along for the ride bill you are kidding yourself here firstly motorcycles do not steer themselves only the rider can do that secondly it is the adhesion of the tyre on the road the suspension geometry and the ground clearance of the motorcycle which dictate how quickly you can swerve to avoid obstacles and not the knowledge of physics between the rider s ears are you seriously suggesting that countersteering knowledge enables you to corner faster or more competently than you could manage otherwise mike i m extremely gratified for you that you have such a natural affinity and prowess for motorcycling that formal training was a total waste of time for you assuming your total training hasn t come from simply from reading rec motorcycles however of the motorcyclists i ve discussed formal rider education with have regarded the experience as overwhelmingly positive this regardless of the amount of experience they brought into the course ranging from minutes to years formal training in this country as far as i am aware does not include countersteering theory i found out about countersteering about six years ago from a physics lecturer who was also a motorcyclist i didn t believe him at first when he said i steered my bike to the right to make it turn left but i went out and analysed closely what i was doing and realized he was right it s an interesting bit of knowledge and i ve had a lot of fun since then telling others about it who were at first as sceptical as i was but that s all it is an interesting bit of knowledge and to claim that it is essential for all bikers to know it or that you can corner faster or better as a result is absurd formal training is in my view absolutely essential if you re going to be able to ride a bike properly and safely but by including countersteering theory in newbie courses we are confusing people unnecessarily right at the time when there are far more important matters for them to learn and that was my original point mike
rec.motorcycles	re drinking and riding norman hamer maven eskimo com wrote what is a general rule of thumb for sobriety and cycling a couple of hours after you feel sober or what should i just work with if i drink tonight i don t ride until tomorrow i generally find that after two or three decent hits of nitrous my riding improves enormously drinking is silly your breath smells it costs lots of money and the pigs can detect it with their machines no works for me try it nick the like wow um far out er biker dod concise um errr m like um er lud nick pettefar contractor large currently incarcerated at bnr maidenhead the united kingdom npet bnr ca bmw k rs kay pres pbwasoh uk bs
rec.motorcycles	re where s the oil on my k going in article c dlvo j skates gsfc nasa gov tim intrepid gsfc nasa gov tim seiss writes after both oil changes the oil level was at the top mark in the window on the lower right side of the motor but i ve been noticing that the oil level seen in the window gradually decreases over the miles i m always checking the window with the bike on level ground and after it has sat idle for awhile so the oil has a chance to drain back into the pan the bike isn t leaking oil any place and i don t see any smoke coming out of the exhaust my owner s manual says the amount of oil corresponding to the high and low marks in the oil level window is approx quart it looks like my bike has been using about quarts miles the owner s manual also gives a figure for max oil consumption of about oz mile or l km my question is whether the degree of oil consumption i m seeing on my bike is normal have any other k owners seen their oil level gradually and consistently go down should i take the bike in for work i m asking local guys also to get as many data points as i can it s normal for the bmw k bikes to use a little oil in the first few thousand miles i don t know why i ve had three new k bikes and all three used a bit of oil when new max maybe quart in first miles this soon quits and by the time i had miles on them the oil consumption was about zero i ve been told that the harder you run the bike within reason the sooner it stops using any oil charlie smith charlie elektro cmhnet org kotdohl kotwitdodl kspi dod doh ama moa ra buckey beemers bk ohio v bmw k lt r gs pd r triumph tr columbus ohio usa
rec.motorcycles	re internet discussion list in article qc f ad moe ksu ksu edu bparker uafhp uark edu brian parker writes hello world of motorcyles lovers soon to be lovers i have started a discussion list on the internet for people interested in talking bikes we discuss anything and everything if you are interested in joining drop me a line since it really isn t a list what we do is if you have a post you send it to me and i distribute it to everyone c mon join and enjoy huh did this guy just invent wreck motorcycles curious minds want to know charlie smith charlie elektro cmhnet org kotdohl kotwitdodl kspi dod doh ama moa ra buckey beemers bk ohio v bmw k lt r gs pd r triumph tr columbus ohio usa
rec.motorcycles	re internet discussion list in article qc f ad moe ksu ksu edu bparker uafhp uark edu brian parker writes hello world of motorcyles lovers soon to be lovers i have started a discussion list on the internet for people interested in talking bikes we discuss anything and everything if you are interested in joining drop me a line since it really isn t a list what we do is if you have a post you send it to me and i distribute it to everyone c mon join and enjoy on second thought maybe he didn t invent wreck moto he s trying a round about way to figure out the dod theme song one faq coming right up charlie smith dod doh kspt o o there s nothing quite like the pitter patter of little feet followed by the words daddy why am i locked outside o o
rec.motorcycles	re bikes and contacts in article apr news columbia edu scs cunixb cc columbia edu sebastian c sears writes in article apr linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes in article c ckp c d news cso uiuc edu cs a dcl nxt cso uiuc edu cs student writes i have a quick question i recently got a bike and drive it often but my one problem is the wind messing with my contacts i have gas permeable how about a full face helmet with the face sheild down works for me actually this doesn t always work for me either i have wind that blows around inside my rf some and it ll dry my eyes out get dust in them eventually unless i m also wearing sunglasses inside my helmet i too usually wear sunglasses inside my full face helmet to keep dirt wind out of my contacts mumble mumble mumble charlie smith dod doh kspt
rec.motorcycles	re looking for a maintenance manual for honda cb in article apr wam umd edu buffalo wam umd edu duncan d sterling writes if anyone thinks that touring on a cb is pushing the envelope try a twin my local honda dealer says that my honda dream was commonly referred to as a serious touring bike when it first came out maybe there is something in the water around here what s the problem here back in i rode a puch from paris to barcelona and back that was a two stroke and back then it was representative of the size of bikes on the road a was considered a big bike and the superbikes of the day were cc or cc anything bigger was real rare charlie smith dod doh kspt nothing in the water mais voulez vous un peu du melange
rec.motorcycles	re ggrrrrrr cages double parking motorcycles pisses me off evelyn wells on the apr cst wibbled once again this morning i pulled up to the designated motorcycle parking area only to find a cage pulled up behind the bikes if people don t double park cars why do they do it to motorcycles never mind that rhetorical question i know why they do it what i want to know is what can i do about it carry pieces of paper that say don t park your car in the motorcycle area call the cops wait until they emerge from the building and berate them until they beg forgiveness does anyone else have this problem and what do you do about it evie i don t know if you have a local branch where you are but the preferred method over here is to phone the ira and tell them about the car and that it belongs to an mp who is on a northern ireland government committee an hour or so later and the car is no longer a problem it s best not to park too close to it though nick the vengeful biker dod concise oxford plastic m lud nick pettefar contractor large currently incarcerated at bnr maidenhead the united kingdom npet bnr ca bmw k rs kay pres pbwasoh uk bs
rec.motorcycles	re bikes vs horses was re insect impacts f jonathan e quist on the thu apr gmt wibbled in article txd able mkt com com txd esd com com tom dietrich writes in a previous article egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher says lots of things none of which are quoted here in article rgu usenet ins cwru edu ai cleveland freenet edu mike sturdevant writes you think your average dirt biker can jump a foot log how about an log that is suspended about off of the ground for that matter how about a log that is suspended off of the ground oh ye of little imagination you don t jump over those that s where you lay the bike down and slide under jonathan e quist the nice thing about horses though is that if they break down in the middle of nowhere you can eat them fuel s a bit cheaper too nick the hp biker dod concise oxford giddy up m lud nick pettefar contractor large currently incarcerated at bnr maidenhead the united kingdom npet bnr ca bmw k rs kay pres pbwasoh uk bs
rec.motorcycles	re extraordinary footpeg engineering in article apr csdvax csd unsw edu au exb csdvax csd unsw edu au writes okay dod ers here s a goddamn mystery for ya the stud on the side of the bike that clunked when i turned was absent i m fairly sure it was there before the event in fact the thread in the hole in the footpeg was perfectly intact with no evidence of something having been forcefully ripped out of it only moments previously okay all you engineering types how the f k do you explain this how can you rip a tightly fitting steel thread out of a threaded hole in alloy without damaging the thread in the hole you can t knock a threaded stud out from its hole without destroying the threads also part of the stud would still be in the hole therefore the stud was not in the hole before you touched something down on that side of the bike dr doom
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher writes in article zen sys uea ac uk mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith writes egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher writes all of us that argue about gyroscopes etc throughly understand the technique of countersteering including all the ones who think that they countersteer all the way through a corner the underlying physics are a different matter and need not be taught to beginners agreed countersteering the technique should be taught for only with understanding of the technique can one develop maximally effective emergency avoidance manuvers this is really the only thing we disagree on maybe we should agree to disagree i still think that telling newbies to steer left to turn to the right is unnecessarily confusing when they ll do it anyway if they just get on the bike and ride the damn thing i know exactly what s happening it s those other gits that haven t a clue me too understanding the physics of traction is fine but i cannot see how detailed theory like that has any place in a motorcyle training course all you need to know is that maximum traction is obtained with the tyre just beginning to slide against the road then we are in violent disagreement while what you state is true it is insufficient to form a traction management policy available traction increases with applied normal force ie traction available to the front wheel increases as weight shifts under braking forces and correspondingly decreases at the rear thus a technique of applying both brakes and easing off the rear and increasing pressure on the front can best be learned with an understanding of weight shift and available traction jeez ed when you started talking about traction management policies i thought you were making some weird reference to looking after railway locomotives the official line here though i do have my doubts about it is that the front brake is applied first followed by the rear brake the idea being that you avoid locking up the rear after weight transfer takes place in practice i suspect most people do what you describe saying brake until the tire just begins to slide is next to useless advice to a newbie he has to go out and slide the tire to find out where that is it also gives him zero information from which to develop a braking technique that changes as the braking and corresponding weight shift develop if you don t slide the tyre you have no way of knowing whether you ve achieved maximum braking or not i m not suggesting that you should always aim to brake as hard as you possibly can but if you want to find the limits of the machine you have to go beyond them in any case for maximum braking if as i suggested you aim to keep both wheels just on the point of sliding then you ll be doing exactly as you suggest
rec.motorcycles	re new to motorcycles in article apr alw nih gov gregh niagara dcrt nih gov gregory humphreys writes what is buying a bike going to do to my insurance i turn in about a month so my parents have been taking care of my insurance up till now and i need a comprehensive list of costs that buying a motorcycle is going to insure i live in washington dc if that makes a difference it depends on the bike once you ve found a bike you re interested in call some insurance companies for rates some bikes are much cheaper to insure than you might think my ex only costs me year in st louis i m any recommendations on what i should buy where i should look for it for a first bike i recommend cc s or less and a bike short enough to get both feet on the ground when you stop the one piece of advice everyone will give you is to take a motorcycle safety foundation rider s course see a dealer for details in some states completion of such a course can give you a break on insurance it will also teach you to ride properly from the beginning so you won t learn any bad habits good luck riding a motorcycle is the most fun you can have naked or otherwise alan
rec.motorcycles	re insurance discount erik asphaug x asphaug lpl arizona edu wrote unless some insurance agent offers a multi vehicle discount they do this all the time for cars assuming that you re only capable of progressive offers multi vehicle discounts good prices too imho tony tony jones ant cray com uunet cray ant cmcs codegeneration group software division cray research inc f lone oak drive eagan mn
rec.motorcycles	re first bike in article forqfa iuzmatnmz andrew cmu edu james leo belliveau jbc andrew cmu edu writes i am a serious motorcycle enthusiast without a motorcycle and to put it bluntly it sucks i really would like some advice on what would oh for a second i thought this was a posting by ed green bruce clarke b c environment e mail bclarke galaxy gov bc ca
rec.motorcycles	re fortune guzzler barred from bars that s okay he s perfectly welcome to come to scotland you know
rec.motorcycles	re new to motorcycles gregory humphreys gregh niagara dcrt nih gov wrote greg i m very new to motorcycles haven t even bought one yet i was in the same position about you how do you learn if you ve never ridden i took a class put on by a group called the motorcycle safety foundation in california they might have something similar in washington try calling a motorcycle dealer in your area and asking it s a good first start on how to ride a motorcycle correctly
rec.motorcycles	re traffic morons in article uupcb compdyn questor org ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau wrote nmm from nielsmm imv aau dk niels mikkel michelsen nmm subject how to act in front of traffic jerks nmm the other day it was raining cats and dogs therefor i was going only to nmm the speed limit on nothing more on my bike this guy in his bmw was nmm driving meters behind me for meters and at the next red light i nmm calmly put the bike on its leg walked back to this car he rolled down the nmm window and i told him he was a total idiot and the reason why nmm did i do the right thing imho you did the wrong thing you could have been shot or he could have run over your bike or just beat the shit out of you consider that the person is foolish enough to drive like a fool and may very well act like one too just get the heck away from the idiot if the driver does something clearly illegal you can file a citizens arrest and drag that person into court it s a hassle for you but a major hassle for the perp john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	re insurance and lotsa points in article apr adobe com cjackson adobe com writes i am very glad to know that none of you judgemental little shits has hey pal who re you calling litte tony tony kidson pgp key by request voice morgan towers the cat has had to move now e mail in order morgan road as i ve had to take the top tony morgan demon co uk bromley off of the machine tny cix compulink co uk england br qe honda st dod compuserve com
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies on apr gmt xlyx vax cit cornell edu said is it possible to do a wheelie on a motorcycle with shaft drive yes but the rear wheel comes off the ground not the front see it just hops into the air figure john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	re traffic morons in article stafford stafford winona msus edu stafford vax winona msus edu john stafford writes in article uupcb compdyn questor org ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau wrote nmm from nielsmm imv aau dk niels mikkel michelsen nmm subject how to act in front of traffic jerks nmm the other day it was raining cats and dogs therefor i was going only to nmm the speed limit on nothing more on my bike this guy in his bmw was nmm driving meters behind me for meters and at the next red light i nmm calmly put the bike on its leg walked back to this car he rolled down the nmm window and i told him he was a total idiot and the reason why nmm did i do the right thing imho you did the wrong thing you could have been shot or he could have run over your bike or just beat the shit out of you consider that the person is foolish enough to drive like a fool and may very well act like one too just get the heck away from the idiot if the driver does something clearly illegal you can file a citizens arrest and drag that person into court it s a hassle for you but a major hassle for the perp john stafford minnesota state university winona you can t make a citizens arrest on anything but a felony all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	re paris dakar bmw touring mike johnson mentorg com mentor graphics sw boeckman rd software support corporation wilsonville or framework products division
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in a previous article xlyx vax cit cornell edu says mike terry asks is it possible to do a wheelie on a motorcycle with shaft drive no mike it is imposible due to the shaft effect the centripital effects of the rotating shaft counteract any tendency for the front wheel to lift off the ground dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.motorcycles	re first bike and wheelies in a previous article jbc andrew cmu edu james leo belliveau says anyone i am a serious motorcycle enthusiast without a motorcycle and to put it bluntly it sucks i really would like some advice on what would be a good starter bike for me i do know one thing however i need to make my first bike a good one because buying a second any time soon is out of the question i am specifically interested in racing bikes cbr f gsx r i know that this may sound kind of crazy considering that i ve never had a bike before but i am responsible a fast learner and in love please give me any advice that you think would help me in my search including places to look or even specific bikes that you want to sell me thanks the answer is obvious zx d dod darkman the significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies xlyx vax cit cornell edu writes is it possible to do a wheelie on a motorcycle with shaft drive no it s not possible to countersteer either for the humor impared p pphhhhhtttttt concours sophisticated lady tom dietrich cc sportster ol sport for sale dod sr spike the garage rat ama queued for an m fssnoc two jousts and a gather big fun kspt ma bell cool as a rule but sometimes e mail txd able mkt com com h lewis disclaimer com takes no responsibility for opinions preceding this
rec.motorcycles	honda cbr for sale for sale honda cbr hurricane i bought the bike at the end of last summer and although i love it the bills are forcing me to part with it the bike has a little more than miles on it and runs very strong it is in nead of a tune up and possibly break pads but the rubber is good i am also tossing in a tankbag and a kiwi helmet asking or best offer add hits newspaper and micronews interested parties can call during the day and in the evenings no later than pm
rec.motorcycles	re traffic morons in uupcb compdyn questor org ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau writes nmm from nielsmm imv aau dk niels mikkel michelsen nmm subject how to act in front of traffic jerks i ve found that an effective strategy is to flash my brake light by pumping the pedal you will obviously need a bit of free play in your brake pedal to do this it seems that even the most brain dead idiot can usually discern that a flashing red light directly in front of him her it may mean that something is wrong i see one thing wrong with your strategy the boy who cried wolf jorg klinger gsxr if you only new who arch eng services lost horizons cr i think i am umanitoba man ca the embalmer it anonymous squidonk
rec.motorcycles	re cb c with flames out the exhaust in article apr research nj nec com chris behanna behanna syl nj nec com writes in article apr bnr ca dave dal farra gpz bnr ca writes reminds me of a great editorial by bruce reeve a couple months ago in cycle canada he was so pissed off with cops pulling over speeders in dangerous spots and often blind corners that one day he decided to get revenge cruising on a factory loaner zzr test bike he noticed a cop had pulled over a motorist on an on or off ramp with almost no shoulder being a bright lad he hit his bike s kill switch just before passing the cop who happened to be bending towards the offending motorist there by exposing his glutes to the passing world with his ignition system now dead he pumped his throtle two or three times to fill his exhaust canister s with volatile raw fuel all it took was a stab at the kill switch to re light the ignition and send a flame in sargeant swell s direction i wonder if any cycle cops read cycle canada although i agree with the spirit of the action i do hope that the rider ponied up the or so it takes to replace the exhaust system he just destroyed the owner s manual explicitly warns against such behavior for exactly that reason you can destroy your muflers that way later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs ya fat chance the offending rider was a moto journalist those guys can sell hundreds of bikes with one stroke of the pen and as such get away with murder when it comes to test bikes one way or the other it was probably worth the early expiration of one mufler to see a bone head get his butt baked dave d f it s true they say that money talks when mine spoke it said buy me a drink
rec.motorcycles	how to buy a first bike etc there have been a lot of posts lately about i wanna buy my first bike is a gsxr zx cbr fzr a good bike to learn on etc i think i m going to put together a faq on buying a new bike ravi used to post one all the time bruce clarke b c environment e mail bclarke galaxy gov bc ca
rec.motorcycles	stuff for sale is gone thanks to all who responded the three items electric vest aerostitch suit and scarf are all spoken for gary gary wasserman a completely irrational attraction to bmw bikes interleaf inc prospect place hillside ave waltham ma grw ileaf com x fax dod
rec.motorcycles	re new to motorcycles in article apr alw nih gov gregh niagara dcrt nih gov gregory humphreys writes i only have about to work with so that would have to cover everything bike helmet anything else that i m too ignorant to know i need to buy the following numbers are approximate and will no doubt get me flamed helmet new but cheap jacket used or very cheap gloves nothing special motorcycle safety foundation riding course a must that leaves you between and depending on the accuracy of my numbers to buy a used bike get it registered get it insured and get it running properly i d say you re cutting it close perhaps if your parents are reasonable and you indicated your wish to learn to ride safely you could get them to pick up the cost of the msf course and some of the safety gear early holiday presents or whatever those are one time well long term anyway investments and you could spend your money on the actual bike insurance registration and maintenance curtis jackson cjackson mv us adobe com hawk gt maxim dod kotb black lab mix studley doright collie golden george there is no justification for taking away individuals freedom in the guise of public safety thomas jefferson
rec.motorcycles	re fortune guzzler barred from bars in article c qtvl m dartvax dartmouth edu russell p hughes dartmouth edu knicker twister writes in article apr bnr ca npet bnr ca nick pettefar writes with regards to the pub brawl he might have a history of such things just because he was a biker doesn t make him out to be a reasonable person even the dod might object to him joining who knows if he had a history of such things why was it not mentioned in the article and why did they present the irrelevant detail of where he got his drinking money from i can t say exactly who is at fault here but from where i sit is looks like we re seeing the results either of the law going way out of hand or of shoddy journalism if the law wants to attach strings to how you spend a settlement they should put the money in trust they don t so i would assume it s perfectly legitimate to drink it away though i wouldn t spend it that way myself david karr karr cs cornell edu
rec.motorcycles	re fortune guzzler barred from bars david karr on the tue apr gmt wibbled in article c qtvl m dartvax dartmouth edu russell p hughes dartmouth edu knicker twister writes in article apr bnr ca npet bnr ca nick pettefar writes with regards to the pub brawl he might have a history of such things just because he was a biker doesn t make him out to be a reasonable person even the dod might object to him joining who knows if he had a history of such things why was it not mentioned in the article and why did they present the irrelevant detail of where he got his drinking money from i can t say exactly who is at fault here but from where i sit is looks like we re seeing the results either of the law going way out of hand or of shoddy journalism if the law wants to attach strings to how you spend a settlement they should put the money in trust they don t so i would assume it s perfectly legitimate to drink it away though i wouldn t spend it that way myself david karr karr cs cornell edu we heard about this from a newspaper article journalists and editors always pick out the most interesting and sensational facts for our delectation as the editor of the sun once said we never let the facts get in the way of a good story you must have noticed how motorcyclists get treated by the press they thrive on hysteria ignorance sensationalism and one upmanship unfortunately there s not enough salt to keep taking a pinch of nick the cynical old biker dod concise oxford leaky new gearbox m lud nick pettefar contractor large teneo tuus intervallum cuurrently incarcerated at bnr o o npet bnr ca bmw k rs kay maidenhead the united kingdom o pres pbwasoh uk bs ask not for whom the bell tolls it tolls for you it s time to get up
rec.motorcycles	re so that s where the oil in my k went tim intrepid gsfc nasa gov tim seiss writes just wanted to say thanks to everyone who sent me e mail or posted a reply to my question on the oil consumption in my k s so what did you decide joe senner joe rider cactus org austin area ride mailing list ride rider cactus org texas splatterfest mailing list fest rider cactus org
rec.motorcycles	the best of times the worst of times note this is not about the l a or ny times a few times a year a funny thing happens the bike engine runs perfectly completely smooth not that it runs poorly normally but on these days it is exceptional my theory is that the air density and moisture content of the air are such that i get complete combustion needless to say it puts me in a great mood the mood lasted for about miles heading north on the freeway about a mile or two south of the my throttle stopped responding and i was between lanes nothing to do but make my way over lanes to the shoulder initially by gliding then by pushing at least traffic was heavy enough so that cars did not mind stopping for me turned out to be a screw unscrewed inside my mikuni hs carb i keep hearing that one should keep all of the screws tight on a bike but i never thought that i had to do that on the screws inside of a carb at least it was roadside fixable and i was on my way in hardly any time death is life s way of telling you you ve been fired r geis paul blumstein paulb harley tti com dod abate ama hog doh kd laa marc arrl platypus qrp arpci naswa lwca rcma cala transaction technology inc santa monica ca
rec.motorcycles	re type spesifications cb vfr gt etc vidar olaf solberg vidaros dhhalden no wrote can somebody tell me what all the letter spesifications on motorcycle models really mean example what means the c the b and the r in honda cbr or the v s g l and p in suzuki vs glp honda a v designates a v engine street bike vf for v vt for v twin cb is a street bike with an parallel twin or inline cylinder engine r used to mean race bike but is now also used to mean sport bike cl was for the old steet scramblers street bikes with high pipes cm was a custom street bike cr is dirt only two strokes xl is dual purpose bike xr was dirt only four stroke but now can be a dual purpose bike if it has an l as a suffix gl is a touring bike frank ball ur m frankb sad hp com work hewlett packard fax home valley house drive it xt seca f pl rohnert park ca kc wug law ama dod i m the nra
rec.motorcycles	re hell mets in article apr freenet carleton ca aa freenet carleton ca lloyd carr writes in a previous article maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer says if i don t end up replacing it in the real near future would i do better to wear my totally nondamaged face dot rated cheapie which doesn t fit as well or keep out the wind as well or wearing the shoei rf which is a lot more comfortable keeps the wind out better is quieter but might have some minor damage wear the rf even after a few drops paint chips it is far better than no helmet or a poorly fitting one i ve had many scratches bangs which have been repaired plus i m still confident of the protection the helmet will continue to give me only when you actually see depressions or actual cracks using a magnifying glass should you consider replacement this is not good advice a couple of years i was involved in a low speed getoff in which i landed on my back on the pavement my head helmeted hit the pavement with a clunk leaving a couple of dings and chips in the paint at the point of impact but no other visible damage i called the helmet manufacturer and inquired about damage they said that the way a fiberglass shell works is to first give then delaminate then crack this is the way fiberglass serves to spread the force of the impact over a wider area after the fiberglass has done its thing the crushable foam liner takes care of absorbing hopefully the remaining impact force they told me that the second stage of fiberglass functionality delamination of the glass resin layers can occur with no visible signs either inside or outside of the helmet they suggested that i send them the helmet and they would inspect it including x raying i did so they sent back the helmet with a letter stating that that they could find no damage that would compromise the ability of the helmet to provide maximum protection i suspect that this letter would eliminate their being able to claim prior damage to the helmet in the event i were to sue them the bottom line though is that it appears that a helmets integrity can be compromised with no visible signs the only way to know for sure is to send it back and have it inspected note that some helmet manufacturers provide inspections services and some do not another point to consider when purchasing a lid ken franklin they say there s a heaven for people who wait ama and some say it s better but i say it ain t gwrra i d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints dod the sinners are lots more fun y know only the good die young
rec.motorcycles	re ok so i was a little hasty in article apr megatek com randy megatek com randy davis writes in article speedy engr latech edu speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer writes in article jnmoyne moustic lbl gov jnmoyne lbl gov jean noel moyne writes what does dwi stand for i thought it was dui for driving under influence so here what does w stand for driving while intoxicated actually i beleive dwi normally means driving while impaired rather than intoxicated at least it does in the states i ve lived in this was changed here in louisiana when a girl went to court and won her case by claiming to be stoned on pot not intoxicated on liquor one can be imparied without necessarily being impaired by liquor drugs not enough sleep being a total moron all can impair someone etc i m surprised this got her off the hook perhaps dwi in lousiana is confined to liquor lets just say it is dui here now dod technician dr speed not student stolen taglines god is real unless declared integer i came i saw i deleted all your files black holes are where god is dividing by zero the world will end in minutes please log out earth is full please delete anyone you can
rec.motorcycles	header paint it seems the miles of trailering in the rain has rusted my bike s headers the metal underneath is solid but i need to sand off the rust coating and repaint the pipes black any recommendations for paint and application of said paint thanks axel
rec.motorcycles	re rgv and posing in article dsd es com bgardner pebbles es com blaine gardner writes in article speedy engr latech edu speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer writes in article spam maths adelaide edu au amydlak spam maths adelaide edu au adam mydlak writes squid deleted helment laws vary from state to state in my state louisiana it is the law i personaly would not go feet on a bike without one law or no law a helment will save your life i ll go feet but i draw the line at i ll see your and raise you doug rinckes drinckes tssc wlg nec co jp new zealand tssc ltd bmw r s bmw r indian a
rec.motorcycles	type spesifications cb vfr gt etc can somebody tell me what all the letter spesifications on motorcycle models really mean example what means the c the b and the r in honda cbr or the v s g l and p in suzuki vs glp i wanna distribute this in our club magazine i want lists of all types but i already knows about harley thanks in advance vidar vidar o solberg norway rock hard ride free we are the proud the few and the true metallibashers
rec.motorcycles	re honda cb f for sale i wanted to let people know that this motorcycle has been sold thanks for your inquiries dave schultz
rec.motorcycles	re boom dog attack several years ago while driving a cage a dog darted out at a quiet intersection right in front of me but there was enough distance between us so i didn t have to slow down however a nd dog suddenly appeared and collided with my right front bumper and the force of the impact was enough to kill that scottish terrier apparently it was following the st dog henceforth if a dog decides to cross the street keep an eye out for a nd dog as many dogs like to travel in pairs or packs i ve yet to experience a dog chasing me on my black gl i which has a pretty loud oem horn not as good as fiamms but good enuff but the bike is large and heavy enough to run right over one of the smaller nippers while the larger ones would have trouble getting my leg between the saddlebags and engine guards i d def feel more vulnerable on my trump as that d be easier leg chewing target for those mongrels if there s a persistent dog running after bikers despite complaints to the owner i wouldn t be adverse to running over it with my truck as a dogs life isn t worth much imho compared to a child riding a bike who gets knocked to the ground by said dog and dies from a head injury any dog in the neighborhood that s vicious or a public menace running about unleashed is fair game as road kill candidate graeme harrison gharriso hpcc corp hp com dod
rec.motorcycles	help which bikes are short help i ve got a friend shopping for her first motorcycle this is great unfortunately she needs at most a seat this is not great so far the only thing we ve found was an old and unhappy looking kz so it s time to tap the collective memory of all the denizens out there anybody know of models old models and used bikes are not a problem with a or lower seat and since she has to make this difficult she would prefer not to end up with a cruiser so there s bonus points for listing tiny standards i seem to remember a thread with a point similar to this passing through several months ago did anybody keep that list thanks gregory bean dod bean ncar ucar edu in fact everything s got that big reverb sound
rec.motorcycles	re cb c with flames out the exhaust from article c quw btq ux cso uiuc edu by mikeh ux cso uiuc edu mike hollyman hi i have an cb custom that i just replaced the cylinder head gasket on now when i put it back together again it wouldn t idle at all it was only running on cylinders and it would backfire and spit flames out the exhaust on the right side the exhaust is mac i bought new plugs today and it runs very rough and still won t idle i am quite sure the fine tune knobs on the carbs are messed up i checked the timing it was fine so i advanced it a little and that didn t help i assume the carbs need to be synched can i buy a kit and do this myself if so what kit is the best for the price any other suggestions i dont think its the carbs that are out i would suspect that the cam timing is out as you say that you had the head off that would make sense to me ian just my emu s worth ian deeley whatever you do will be school of engineering insignificant but its very university of sussex ooo important that you do it england anon
rec.motorcycles	re extraordinary footpeg engineering in a previous article exb csdvax csd unsw edu au says okay dod ers here s a goddamn mystery for ya today i was turning a degree corner just like on any other day but there was a slight difference a rough spot right in my path caused the suspension to compress in mid corner and some part of the bike hit the ground with a very tangible thunk i pulled over at first opportunity to sus out the damage some deleted barry manor dod confused accidental peg scraper check the bottom of your pipes barry suspect that is what may have hit i did the same a few years past thought it was the peg but found the bottom of my pipe has made contact showed a good sized dent scratch believe you d feel the suddent change on your foot if the peg had bumped as for the piece missing contribute that to vibration loss yep the same thing happened to me on my old honda twinstar mike maser dod squid rating pinetree rd sidney b c can hopalonga twinfart yuka yuka excess v l j wish list tridump mucho guzler burley home thumpison or bimotamoeba work mmaser sirius uvic ca joke of the month what did the gay say to the university of victoria indian chief news rec motorcycles answer can i bum a couple bucks
rec.motorcycles	re ok so i was a little hasty in article speedy engr latech edu speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer writes in article jnmoyne moustic lbl gov jnmoyne lbl gov jean noel moyne writes what does dwi stand for i thought it was dui for driving under influence so here what does w stand for driving while intoxicated actually i beleive dwi normally means driving while impaired rather than intoxicated at least it does in the states i ve lived in this was changed here in louisiana when a girl went to court and won her case by claiming to be stoned on pot not intoxicated on liquor one can be imparied without necessarily being impaired by liquor drugs not enough sleep being a total moron all can impair someone etc i m surprised this got her off the hook perhaps dwi in lousiana is confined to liquor randy davis email randy megatek com zx pilot uunet ucsd megatek randy dod but this one goes to eleven nigel tufnel spinal tap
rec.motorcycles	looking for movies w bikes folks i am assembling info for a film criticism class final project essentially i need any all movies that use motos in any substantial capacity ie fallen angles t h d the marlboro man raising arizona etc any help you fellow r m ers could give me would be much preciated btw a summary of bike s or plot is helpful but not necessary thanx erc c eric sundheim csundh ursa calvin edu grandrapids mi usa hondo vfr f dod
rec.motorcycles	traffic morons nmm from nielsmm imv aau dk niels mikkel michelsen nmm subject how to act in front of traffic jerks nmm the other day it was raining cats and dogs therefor i was going only to nmm the speed limit on nothing more on my bike this guy in his bmw was nmm driving meters behind me for meters and at the next red light i nmm calmly put the bike on its leg walked back to this car he rolled down the nmm window and i told him he was a total idiot and the reason why nmm did i do the right thing nmm yours truly nmm niels mikkel well sounds great to me when i have a real bdi cager tailgating me i ve found that an effective strategy is to flash my brake light by pumping the pedal you will obviously need a bit of free play in your brake pedal to do this it seems that even the most brain dead idiot can usually discern that a flashing red light directly in front of him her it may mean that something is wrong the two problems i d see with your strategy is that the red light may change before you can get anything meaningful out of your mouth or the occupant s may take exception to your opinions and demonstrate such physically on you or your now parked bike admittedly the latter is a slim chance but it would be enough to give me pause slmr a sometimes you get to be the windshield sometimes the bug computer dynamics bbs hst v vancouver bc canada easy access low rates friendly sysop
rec.motorcycles	new to motorcycles hello everyone i m new to motorcycles so no flames please i don t have my bike yet so i need a few pieces of information i only have about to work with so that would have to cover everything bike helmet anything else that i m too ignorant to know i need to buy what is buying a bike going to do to my insurance i turn in about a month so my parents have been taking care of my insurance up till now and i need a comprehensive list of costs that buying a motorcycle is going to insure i live in washington dc if that makes a difference any recommendations on what i should buy where i should look for it in dc as i imagine it is in every other state ok ok we re not a state we re not bitter you take the written test first and then get a learners permit however i m wondering how one goes about learning to ride the bike proficiently enough so as to a get a liscence and b not kill oneself i don t know anyone with a bike who could teach me and the most advice i ve heard is either do you live near a field or do you have a friend with a pickup truck the answers to both of which are no do i just ride around my neighborhood and hope for the best i kind of live in a residential area but it s not suburbs it s still the big city and i m about a mile from downtown so that doesn t seem too viable any stories on how you all learned thanks for any replies in advance greg humphreys wq meant to do that damn autoindent greg humphreys this must be thursday i never national institutes of health could get the hang of thursdays gregh alw nih gov arthur dent
rec.motorcycles	re happy easter in article qt jo fj vtserf cc vt edu ranck joesbar cc vt edu wm l ranck writes hey i wasn t picking on morgan they use old technology that s all i said there s nothing wrong with using old technology people still use shovels to dig holes well you really can t dig a hole with a stock shovel you at least need some performance mods like stroking and cams besides it s real bad on the rear tire dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com i m getting tired of concours mmmmmmmmmm beating you up dave rz ring ding woops you never learn ama dod cog chicago beth bruiser dixon
rec.motorcycles	re happy easter in article apr i isc com jeq lachman com jonathan e quist writes in article tekgen bv tek com davet interceptor cds tek com dave tharp cds writes in article apr i isc com jeq lachman com jonathan e quist writes rolls royce owned by a non british firm ye gods that would be the end of civilization as we know it why not ford owns aston martin and jaguar general motors owns lotus and vauxhall rover is only owned by honda yes it s a minor blasphemy that u s companies would on the likes of a m jaguar or sob lotus it s outright sacrilege for rr to have non british ownership it s a fundamental thing i think there is a legal clause in the rr name regardless of who owns it it must be a british company owner i e ba can sell the company but not the name kevinh hasler ascom ch
rec.motorcycles	dod books anyone around here read this yet does anita have a number title software measurement for dod systems recommendations for initial core measures anita d carleton et al subject software engineering computer programming management author carleton anita d author carnegie mellon university software engineering institute publ pittsburgh pa carnegie mellon university software engineering institute p tony these opinions are nothing but my own and i may not even want them antonio salerno the heart the liver the spleen the pancreas all antonio j salerno att com these miraculous organs work in total darkness david letterman
rec.motorcycles	re motorcycle detailing tip in article apr hemlock cray com ant palm cray com tony jones writes a note to users of plexi fairings if the light hits some of these just right they become a giant magnifing glass and will melt a hole in your guage pod dod technician dr speed not student stolen taglines god is real unless declared integer i came i saw i deleted all your files black holes are where god is dividing by zero the world will end in minutes please log out earth is full please delete anyone you can
rec.motorcycles	re ggrrrrrr cages double parking motorc an apartment complex where i used to live tried this only they put the thing over the driver s window so they couldn t miss it a friend damned near wrecked on the way home one night her vision blocked by the sticker i suggested to the manager the enormous liability they were assuming by pulling that stunt she claimed it was the driver who was at fault for illegally parking in the first place that would probably be good for a laugh or two in court before they found her liable for serious seems to me that the driver was driving the vehicle visually impaired isn t that like not scraping ice and snow off your windshield and such say that s another thing that bugs me why don t people scrape their damn windows i ve seen people driving cars with barely the driver s half of the windshield cleared nothing else cleared this seems pretty stupid and isn t there something probably varies state to state that says a certain percentage of the glass must be clear oh well brad thone systems consultant systems service enterprises st louis mo c bt wuvmd wustl edu c bt wuvmd bitnet
rec.motorcycles	re fortune guzzler barred from bars in article apr reed edu mblock reed edu matt block writes assuming david didn t know that it can be done one legged i too would in new orleans la there was a company making motorcycles for wheelchair bound people the rig consists of a flat bed sidecar rig that the wheelchair can be clamped to the car has a set of hand controls mounted on conventional handlebars looks wierd as hell to see this legless guy driving the rig from the car while his girlfriend sits on the bike as a passenger dod technician dr speed not student stolen taglines god is real unless declared integer i came i saw i deleted all your files black holes are where god is dividing by zero the world will end in minutes please log out earth is full please delete anyone you can
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post in article mjs zen sys uea ac uk mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith writes formal training is in my view absolutely essential if you re going to be able to ride a bike properly and safely but by including countersteering theory in newbie courses we are confusing people unnecessarily right at the time when there are far more important matters for them to learn and that was my original point mike while i agree with you on that formal training is essential for safe riding i disagree strongly with your original point the point of formal training must be to prepare riders for the road preparedness is in my opinion to know as much as possible so to exclude some aspects of riding a bike in a course is wrong imho now to countersteering in particular countersteering is something that must be trained a common reaction among new bikers or bicycle riders in an emergency situation is to steer the motorcycle like a bicycle as we know this makes the motorcycle go in the direction opposite to what was intended needless to say this is dangerous i have a specific example a rider in a left turn the rider thinks he she is to close to the right shoulder of the road and tries to steer the motorcycle to the left by pulling the left handle and pushing the right handle the motorcycle straightens up and goes off the road a worse scenario the same rider same turn in the middle of the turn the rider sees a truck coming towards him her the panicking rider tries to steer the motorcycle away from the truck and crashes right into it the main function of a riding course is to teach how to avoid emergency situations and what to do if in one thus the knowledge and training of countersteering is imho a must in any riding course staal idt unit no
rec.motorcycles	re help which bikes are short in rec motorcycles bean ra cgd ucar edu gregory bean writes help i ve got a friend shopping for her first motorcycle this is great unfortunately she needs at most a seat this is not great so far the only thing we ve found was an old and unhappy looking kz i had a kz and thought it was the best bike i ve ever ridden and mind you i ve ridden many bikes i seem to remember a thread with a point similar to this passing through several months ago did anybody keep that list you must be mistaken no thread in this group has ever had a point seriously there are many short bikes out there what style bike and how much money does she have my so is and rides her cb or my hawk gt with ease most cruisers are low slung ysr s are real short too rich sturges h nswc carderock division w i speak for no one else and listen to the same
rec.motorcycles	re insurance and lotsa points cjackson curtis jackson cjackson adobe com writes cjackson i am very glad to know that none of you judgemental little shits has cjackson ridden driven when too tired sleepy hungover angry or distracted cjackson in the last years why if you had then you might be just as guilty some of us not so judgmental little shits don t drive ride when we re impaired i stopped doing that sort of thing when a good friend of mine got killed by a drunk driver who failed to stop for a red and drove through the side of her volvo in his caddy then again i suspect most of the responsible adults on the net don t bother posting in flame wars on rec moto cjackson there is no justification for taking away individuals freedom cjackson in the guise of public safety thomas jefferson he also owned slaves kept some as forced concubines and had enough resources to do what he wanted without fear of reprisal then again he also smoked dope jet netcom com j eric townsend r r dod hafta kill you this is my fun account work email goes to jet nas nasa gov you got to put down the ducky if you wanna play saxophone skate unix or die boyo
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies is it possible to do a wheelie on a motorcycle with shaft drive mike terry virago
rec.motorcycles	re type spesifications cb vfr gt etc in article c sk d c p srgenprp sr hp com frankb sad hp com frank ball writes honda a v designates a v engine street bike vf for v vt for v twin so how about my honda hawk nt it s a twin but not called a vt curtis jackson cjackson mv us adobe com hawk gt maxim dod kotb black lab mix studley doright collie golden george there is no justification for taking away individuals freedom in the guise of public safety thomas jefferson
rec.motorcycles	re more moa stuff like the ra from what i ve seen in my years as an moa member most of the folks in the ra are also in the moa i guess it s called covering all the bases to get some idea of what is really happening how else does one think the ra gets all the juicey news about what s happen inside the moa nihilism isn t for everyone not that it really matters craig vechorik bmw moa ambassador and ya i finally sent my bucks into the ra too real bmw s have two wheels politically correct statement dod
rec.motorcycles	electricty sigha trying to figure out a way to put a halogen beam on my cb t are there any easy ways to do this i e a slip in bulb replacement was told by a guy at the bike shop that my not damn near bright enough incandescent beam might be caused by a perma low battery so i went and picked up this cheapo motorcycle battery and charging system tester hook it up to the battery it s got lights on very good charge start the engine to test the charging system and it doesn t even register it s supposed to light or lights if everything is ok but it stays down at the same point as just the battery my question here is if indeed my charging system is just plain messed up how the heck is the battery staying fully charged i d think it would be darned near dead from supporting my lights etc do the cb t s have a problem with their charging system are they just generally slower charging than what is normal for bigger bikes is there an easy fix for this happy noise put miles on my bike this weekend finally got myass an endorsement which is really good because my cage just quit running worth a damn and i won t have money to repair it until the first and the weatherman says bright and sunny all week chance of rain on friday big grin bugs in teeth
rec.motorcycles	good reasons to wave at each other one of those morning just getting the coffee in me thoughts waving at other bikers makes more sense than just hey how s it going nice to meet you on the road have a good ride if you re watching for other bikes to wave to it means your attention is on the road where it should be and you re more likely to see cages it keeps you in the habit of watching really carefully for bikes when you re in a cage this is a good thing
rec.motorcycles	re happy easter kevinh on the tue apr gmt wibbled in article apr i isc com jeq lachman com jonathan e quist writes in article tekgen bv tek com davet interceptor cds tek com dave tharp cds writes in article apr i isc com jeq lachman com jonathan e quist writes rolls royce owned by a non british firm ye gods that would be the end of civilization as we know it why not ford owns aston martin and jaguar general motors owns lotus and vauxhall rover is only owned by honda yes it s a minor blasphemy that u s companies would on the likes of a m jaguar or sob lotus it s outright sacrilege for rr to have non british ownership it s a fundamental thing i think there is a legal clause in the rr name regardless of who owns it it must be a british company owner i e ba can sell the company but not the name kevinh hasler ascom ch i don t believe that ba have anything to do with rr it s a seperate company from the rr aero engine company i think that the government own a stake unfortunately they owned a stake of jaguar too until they decided to make a quick buck and sold it to ford bastards this is definitely the ultimate arthur daley government nick the cynical biker dod concise oxford leaky gearbox m lud nick pettefar contractor large teneo tuus intervallum cuurrently incarcerated at bnr o o npet bnr ca bmw k rs kay maidenhead the united kingdom o pres pbwasoh uk bs
rec.motorcycles	re the best of times the worst of times in apr ttinews tti com paulb harley tti com paul blumstein writes note this is not about the l a or ny times turned out to be a screw unscrewed inside my mikuni hs carb i keep hearing that one should keep all of the screws tight on a bike but i never thought that i had to do that on the screws inside of a carb at least it was roadside fixable and i was on my way in hardly any time you better check all the screws in that carb before you suck one into a jug and munge a piston or valve i ve seen it happen before matthew
rec.motorcycles	cobra locks i was posting to alt locksmithing about the best methods for securing a motorcycle i got several responses referring to the cobra lock described below has anyone come across a store carrying this lock in the chicago area any other feedback from someone who has used this thanks for any info steve in article r innraj shelley u washington edu basiji stein u washington edu david basiji writes incidentally the best lock i ve found for bikes is the cobra lock it s a cable which is shrouded by an articulated hardened steel sleeve the lock itself is cylindrical and the locking pawl engages the joints at the articulation points so the chain can be adjusted like handcuffs you can t get any leverage on the lock to break it open and the cylinder is well protected i wouldn t want to cut one of these without a torch and or a vice and heavy duty cutting wheel steve bunis sun microsystems dod st itasca il ama kz
rec.motorcycles	so do any xxxx i mean police officers read this stuff i was just wondering if there were any law officers that read this i have several questions i would like to ask pertaining to motorcycles and cops and please don t say get a vehicle code go to your local station or obvious things like that my questions would not be found in those places nor answered face to face with a real live in the flesh cop if your brother had a friend who had a cousin whos father was a cop etc don t bother writing in thanks
rec.motorcycles	re looking for movies w bikes in article csundh ursa csundh ursa calvin edu charles sundheim writes folks i am assembling info for a film criticism class final project essentially i need any all movies that use motos in any substantial capacity ie fallen angles t h d the marlboro man raising arizona etc any help you fellow r m ers could give me would be much preciated btw a summary of bike s or plot is helpful but not necessary easy rider harleys drugs rednecks new orleans mad max violence dod wanna be s time rider honda thumper time travel on any sunday documentary about dirtbike racers great the great escape steve mcqueen nazis rebel without a cause james dean future dod ers i think the last two are right they are old movies i haven t seen in years dod technician dr speed not student stolen taglines god is real unless declared integer i came i saw i deleted all your files black holes are where god is dividing by zero the world will end in minutes please log out earth is full please delete anyone you can
rec.motorcycles	re so do any xxxx i mean police officers read this stuff in article apr iscnvx lmsc lockheed com jrlaf sgi msd lmsc lockheed com j r laferriere writes i was just wondering if there were any law officers that read this i have several questions i would like to ask pertaining to motorcycles and cops and please don t say get a vehicle code go to your local station or obvious things like that my questions would not be found in those places nor answered face to face with a real live in the flesh cop if your brother had a friend who had a cousin whos father was a cop etc don t bother writing in thanks i just gotta ask what are these questions you want to ask an active cop working on your dod qualfications b dod technician dr speed not student stolen taglines god is real unless declared integer i came i saw i deleted all your files black holes are where god is dividing by zero the world will end in minutes please log out earth is full please delete anyone you can
rec.motorcycles	re route suggestions in article qmm dinnnlg cronkite central sun com doc webrider central sun com steve bunis chicago writes e i i e after this point the route is presently undetermined into pennsylvania new york and back to chicago by suggestions if you do make it into new york state the palisades interstate parkway is a pleasant ride beautiful scenery good road surface minimal traffic you may also want to take a sidetrip along seven lakes drive just off the parkway for the same reasons plus the road sweeps up and down along the hills with sweeping turns under old forest canopy mitch corrado bell communications research dec mdc panther tnds bellcore com wreck mad vax the code warrior
rec.motorcycles	re new to motorcycles in article apr alw nih gov gregh niagara dcrt nih gov gregory humphreys writes hello everyone i m new to motorcycles so no flames please i don t have my bike yet so i need a few pieces of information any stories on how you all learned i ll tell you my story as an example of what not to do early in i took some riding lessons from my college roommate on his old honda cb t he had taken the msf beginner s course so i actually learned some of what i needed to know to ride i proceeded to buy a beat up honda cl for and a helmet and rode around wearing this and a cotton windbreaker then i decided to invest in a full face helmet first smart move sometime around then i also passed my road test on may i got caught in a rainstorm on my way home from a mile trip entering the town where i lived a rather urban suburb i had to stop suddenly for a red light that i noticed too late skidded the rear tire out and was ejected face upward into the oncoming lane of traffic fortunately for me the oncoming traffic was also stopped for the same red light otherwise i might have slid under a car and been killed now this is anecdotal evidence to be sure but i later took the experienced rider course from the msf and saw that earlier training could have helped me greatly in your case the need is even greater since you have nobody to help you practice even the most basic stuff as i did so my advice is to take the msf beginner s course first thing i wouldn t even buy a bike until you ve taken the course unless you happen to pick up a real good deal and can store it someplace until you re ready to use it i only have about to work with so that would have to cover everything bike helmet anything else that i m too ignorant to know i need to buy while you re waiting to take the course it might take a few weeks in dc as i recall there were always waiting lists in boston could you save up some more money to start out right say for riding gear plus the cost bike plus maybe guess to a mechanic to make sure the machine is safe assuming you economize by buying some old beat up machine from a private individual plus insurance plus registration and licensing fees plus the course you re looking at maybe not including the bike itself and a reserve for ongoing maintenance what is buying a bike going to do to my insurance i turn in about a month so my parents have been taking care of my insurance up till now and i need a comprehensive list of costs that buying a motorcycle is going to insure i live in washington dc if that makes a difference i pay about insurance now upstate ny but it was closer to in boston more urban for decent insurance including substantial coverage for liability which you want unless you plan always to be poor i d guess dc is more like boston than like a rural area ergo more expensive any recommendations on what i should buy where i should look for it there used to be annual buyer s guides in the usual motorcycle magazines i found those helpful in getting an idea of what new or recent models might be available you could probably look through past issues to size up what used bikes might be available my first bike was years old when i bought it so i went on my friend s advice instead also look at the bikes that you see people riding or that are parked on the street i basically settled on my present bike by noticing that there were a lot of high mileage bmw s running around and they were generally set up the way i wanted nothing wrong with talking to various dealers in your area or visiting showrooms dealers in the boston area at least when i was shopping were very nice about letting you look around their showrooms and quoting prices for bikes that weren t the latest models hence cheaper although i ended up buying both bikes in private sales david karr karr cs cornell edu bmw r dod also bmwmoa nra aclu et al
rec.motorcycles	re help which bikes are short in article apr ncar ucar edu bean ra cgd ucar edu gregory bean writes help i ve got a friend shopping for her first motorcycle this is great unfortunately she needs at most a seat this is not great so far the only thing we ve found was an old and unhappy looking kz look for a happier looking kz suzuki used to have an l designation for example my former boss had a gs l which had a seat a couple inches lower than the regular gs but it was certainly no cruiser david karr karr cs cornell edu bmw r dod also bmwmoa nra aclu et al
rec.motorcycles	re bike for sale in ma usa in article apr zorro tyngsboro ma us jd zorro tyngsboro ma us jeff derienzo writes i ve recently become father of twins i don t think i can afford to keep bikes and babies both babies are staying so of the harleys is going xlhd mi hey it was my wife s bike well that was pretty uncalled for no smile is our harley manhood feeling challenged jeff derienzo this is where i wanna sit and buy you a drink someday temple of the dog sea bass sears scs cunixb cc columbia edu dod stanley id yamaha xs f bmw r s toyota runner nyc ny
rec.motorcycles	msf program where could someone mail me the archive location of the msf program for an ibm right thanks this is where i wanna sit and buy you a drink someday temple of the dog sea bass sears scs cunixb cc columbia edu dod stanley id yamaha xs f bmw r s toyota runner nyc ny
rec.motorcycles	re story lynn pacesetter com lynn e hall writes allowed yes there is a god no open containers on the street was the signs in the bars yeah right the or so cops on hand for the couple of thousand of bikers in a block main street were not citing anyone the street was filled with empty cans at least feet deep in the gutter the crowd was raisin hell tittie shows everywhere can you say party and still we wonder why they stereotype us erc whacha mean we ifin they whom ever they are want to stereotype me as one that likes to drink beer and watch lovely ladies display their beautiful bodies i like that stereotype if you were refering stereotype to infer a negative you noticed we didn t rape pillage or burn down the town we also left mucho bucks as in money with the town me thinks the town likes us least they said so lynn hall nos bros
rec.motorcycles	re traffic morons in article c shd lh athena cs uga edu ahatcher athena cs uga edu allan hatcher wrote you can t make a citizens arrest on anything but a felony i m not sure that s true let me rephrase you can file a complaint which will bring the person into court as i understand it a citizens arrest does not have to be the physical detention of the person better now john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	re bmw moa members read this from article c px n kw murdoch acc virginia edu by cdw t dayhoff med virginia edu dances with federal rangers in article rider uucp joe rider cactus org writes cdw t dayhoff med virginia edu dances with federal rangers writes i m going to buy a bmw just to cast a vote for groucho i thought you were gonna buy a bmw for its superior power and handling yes but the i was just a tad out of my price range obmotowashing is it just me or does everyone cut their finger s on the evil cotterpin tm lurking somewhere in the dark recesses of the back end of the bike when giving the prized moto a bath i seem to slice the pinkie of one hand or the other every time both of them this time ride safe send me your old moa rags y all cliff weston dod seca ii i thought it might be cool to have the whole bike done in powder coat like maybe a black undercoat with neon splatter or something brian w simmons it s you beemers have no ec tm jeff campbell n wxs r frog sarvax cmhnet org
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article r ja dpa news ysu edu ak yfn ysu edu john r daker wrote in a previous article xlyx vax cit cornell edu says mike terry asks is it possible to do a wheelie on a motorcycle with shaft drive no mike it is imposible due to the shaft effect the centripital effects of the rotating shaft counteract any tendency for the front wheel to lift off the ground this is true as evinced by the popularity of shaft drive drag bikes john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	re cobra locks in article r b rinnale cronkite central sun com doc webrider central sun com writes i was posting to alt locksmithing about the best methods for securing a motorcycle i got several responses referring to the cobra lock described below has anyone come across a store carrying this lock in the chicago area it is available through some dealerships who in turn have to back order it from the manufacturer directly each one is made to order at least if you get a nonstandard length standard is i believe any other feedback from someone who has used this see below in article r innraj shelley u washington edu basiji stein u washington edu david basiji writes incidentally the best lock i ve found for bikes is the cobra lock it s a cable which is shrouded by an articulated hardened steel sleeve the lock itself is cylindrical and the locking pawl engages the joints at the articulation points so the chain can be adjusted like handcuffs you can t get any leverage on the lock to break it open and the cylinder is well protected i wouldn t want to cut one of these without a torch and or a vice and heavy duty cutting wheel i have a long cobralinks lock that i used to use for my harley she doesn t get out much anymore so i don t use the lock that often anymore it is made of articulated steel shells covering seven strands of steel cable it is probably enough to stop all the joyriders but unfortunately professionals can open it rather easily freeze a link break frozen link with your favorite method hammers work well snip through the steel cables which i have on authority are frightfully thin with a set of boltcutters for the same money you can get a kryptonite cable lock which is anywhere from to thick steel cable looks like steel rope shielded in a flexible covering to protect your bike s finish and has a barrel type locking mechanism i don t know if it s adjustable but my source says it s more difficult to pick than most locks and the cable tends to squish flat in bolt cutter jaws rather than shear model all bets are off if the thief has a die grinder with a cutoff wheel even the most durable locks tested yield to this tool in less than one minute fyi i ll be getting a krypto cable next paycheck later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	re a point for helmet law is a point for mc b in article prcrs prc com terry prcrs prc com terry cunningham writes i know of no law either on the books or proposed that bans motorcycles from any place that i want to go to many private places ban bikes for example the famous mile drive at the monterrey peninsula and i have stayed at resorts that sported a no motorcycles allowed sign at the entrance and there have been public places call the ama and ask for jim bensberg sp or any one else in their legislative office they will recound the many public places that they had to bring to court to reverse their ban on bikes that includes everything from public parks to full cities there are probably a few fights on their books as we now speak that is another good reason to donate to their legislative fund death is life s way of telling you you ve been fired r geis paul blumstein paulb harley tti com dod abate ama hog doh kd laa marc arrl platypus qrp arpci naswa lwca rcma cala transaction technology inc santa monica ca
rec.motorcycles	re cobra locks you may find it useful this is a repost the original sender is at the bottom cut here article of rec motorcycles path scrumpy bnrgate corpgate news utdallas edu hermes chpc utexas edu cs ute exas edu swrinde mips pacbell com iggy gw vitalink com widener eff ibmpc cug pipex unipalm uknet cf cm cybaswan eeharvey from eeharvey cybaswan uucp i t harvey newsgroups rec motorcycles subject re best way to lock a bike message id cybaswan uucp date jul gmt references jul usenet ins cwru edu lines these are the figures from the performance bikes lock test taken without permission of course the price is for comparison all the cable locks have some sort of armour the chain locks are padlock and chain each lock was tested for a maximum of ten minutes secs for each test bj bottle jack cd cutting disc bc bolt croppers gas gas flame the table should really be split into immoblisers for a while and lock to somethings for a short while to make comparisons type weight bj cd bc gas total price kg sec sec sec sec sec pounds arm folding cyclelok bar abus steel o cable flex oxford cable revolver abus diskus chain arm folding cyclelok bar abus extra u lock cobra cable ft abus closed chain shackle kryptonite u lock k oxford u lock magnum disclock disc n a n a lock abus hb u lock mini block disc n a n a lock pretty depressing reading i think a good lock and some common sense about where and when you park your bike is the only answer i ve spent all my spare time over the last two weeks landscaping trashing the garden of my and two friends with bikes new house to accommodate our three bikes in relative security never underestimate how much room a bike requires to manouver in a walled area anyway since the weekend there are only two bikes and no he didn t use his abus closed shackle lock it was too much hassle to take with him when visiting his parents a minimum wait of weeks if they don t decide to investigate for the insurance company to make an offer and for the real haggling to begin abus are a german company and it would seem not well represented in the us but very common in the uk the uk distributor given in the above article is michael brandon ltd oliver crescent hawick roxburgh td bj tel the uk distributors for the other locks can also given if required don t lose it ian ian harvey university college swansea too old to rock n roll eeharvey uk ac swan pyr too young to die gs e
rec.motorcycles	countersteering sans hands so how do i steer when my hands aren t on the bars open budweiser in left hand camel cigarette in the right no feet allowed if i lean and the bike turns am i countersteering is countersteering like benchracing only with a taller seat so your feet aren t on the floor rick
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article apr vax cit cornell edu xlyx vax cit cornell edu writes is it possible to do a wheelie on a motorcycle with shaft drive mike terry no at least that s what i told the nasa rent a cop that stopped me because he swore i was lifting it up he didn t completely buy the part about water in the carbs either phil stone new address pstone well sf ca us r st motorcycles ok
rec.motorcycles	re route suggestions in article apr porthos cc bellcore com mdc pyuxe cc bellcore com corrado mitchell writes in article qmm dinnnlg cronkite central sun com doc webrider central sun com steve bunis chicago writes e i i e after this point the route is presently undetermined into pennsylvania new york and back to chicago by suggestions if you do make it into new york state the palisades interstate parkway is a pleasant ride beautiful scenery good road surface minimal traffic you been a while since you hit the pip the pavement at least until around exit is for sh t these days i think it must have taken a beating this winter because i don t remember it being this bad it s all breaking apart and there are some serious potholes now of course there are also the storm drains that are in your lane as opposed to on the side of the road talk about annoying cost saving measures as for traffic don t try it around on weekdays outbound rush hour happens inbound too as there are many bdc s mitch corrado dec mdc panther tnds bellcore com this is where i wanna sit and buy you a drink someday temple of the dog sea bass sears scs cunixb cc columbia edu dod stanley id yamaha xs f bmw r s toyota runner nyc ny
rec.motorcycles	re hell mets in article mavenry altcit eskimo com maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer writes having talked to a couple people about helmets dropping i m getting about don t sweat it you might think about replacing it and the other don t ride with it go without a helmet first is there any way to tell if a helmet is damaged structurally i dropped it about feet to cement off my seat chipped the paint didn t seem to screw up the actual shell i d bet the price of the helmet that it s okay from feet or higher maybe not if i don t end up replacing it in the real near future would i do better to wear my totally nondamaged face dot rated cheapie which doesn t fit as well or keep out the wind as well or wearing the shoei rf which is a lot more comfortable keeps the wind out better is quieter but might have some minor damage i d wear the full facer but then i d be way more worried about wind blast in the face and inability to hear police sirens than the helmet being a little damaged also what would you all reccomend as far as good helmets i m slightly disappointed by how badly the shoei has scratched etc from not being bloody careful about it and how little impact it took to chip the paint and arguably mess it up period looking at a really good full face with good venting wind protection i like the shoei style kinda like the norton one i saw awhile back too but suspect i m going to have to get a much more expensive helmet if i want to not replace it every time i m not being careful where i set it down well my next helmet will be subject to it fitting well an agv sukhoi that s just because i like the looks my current one is a shoei task and it s getting a little old and i crashed in it once a couple of years ago no hard impact to head my hip took care of that if price was a consideration i d get a kiwi k i hear they are both good and cheap christ i don t treat my head as carefully as i treated the shoei as far as tossing it down and i don t have any bruises on it be mildly mildly paranoid about the helmet but don t get carried away there are people on the net like those you mentioned that do not consistently live on our planet regards charles dod rz within the span of the last few weeks i have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post in article apr cs cornell edu karr cs cornell edu david karr writes in article mjs zen sys uea ac uk mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith writes no no no no all i am saying is that you don t even need to tell people the technique of countersteering cos they will do it intuitively the first time they try to go round a corner some will and others will steer with their tuchuses i don t know how much the teaching of countersteering in the beginner course really helps the tuchus steerers i was one i guess that i always steered a bicycle that way and i only got the hang of countersteering in normal riding after the course i could do the countersteering swerves in the course no problem but i only started using it in my normal riding when i decided that my turning at speed off ramps and the like was a lot more difficult that it should have been i knew how it works although that s currently up for debate definitely knew that it works as i could do it in swerves but only figured it out later in my normal riding just a data point i think that it s not a bad idea to bring the idea up but it s best to let everyone tuchus steer for the first lesson or two so they can learn to shift gears before they have to worry about proper handlebar technique countersteering in fact my experienced rider course instructors claimed that they could get on behind a new rider and make the bike turn to whichever side they wanted just by shifting their weight around even when the operator was trying to turn in the opposite direction i admit i ve never actually seen this i have in our beginner course we had passenger training sometime during the lesson the instructor would hop on the back of the bike and the student would take him for a ride if the student did not give the instructor the you are a sack of potatoes passenger speech the instructor would steer the bike and make a general nuisance of himself it was amusing to watch i m just happy that it didn t happen to me i ve bike like jody levine dod kv got a you can if you pf jody p levine hydro on ca ride it toronto ontario canada
rec.motorcycles	re question about helmets in article qmnp inn v mojo eng umd edu oconnor eng umd edu mark o connor writes on the other side of the fence i owned a bieffe off road helmet took what i would consider a minor fall and had visible damage to the shell yes the helmet did its job but the damage impact ratio was scary i own bell moto now have taken impacts on order of twice the bieffe impact we do this frequently in mx and don t even have a scratch on it after two seasons my recommendation is to buy high quality gear ymmv when your helmetted nogin hits an immoveabe object there are only four things to dissipate the energy the immoveable object the helmet shell the helmet liner the rider s head the rider s ego ok five assuming that the helmet head assembly takes the same impact if the shell cracks in one case then in the other the liner must be dented or the head gets jiggled if it s the the liner that s dented the helmet is just as toast as if the shell were cracked it won t absorb energy form an impact in that area if it s the head that s getting jiggled maybe the new gear isn t of as high quality after all i ve bike like jody levine dod kv got a you can if you pf jody p levine hydro on ca ride it toronto ontario canada
rec.motorcycles	re ok so i was a little hasty in article speedy engr latech edu speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer writes in article jnmoyne moustic lbl gov jnmoyne lbl gov jean noel moyne writes ok hold on a second and clarify something for me what does dwi stand for i thought it was dui for driving under influence so here what does w stand for driving while intoxicated this was changed here in louisiana when a girl went to court and won her case by claiming to be stoned on pot not intoxicated on liquor here it s driving while impaired that about covers everything i ve bike like jody levine dod kv got a you can if you pf jody p levine hydro on ca ride it toronto ontario canada
rec.motorcycles	re wanted advice for new cylist in article c r ey mq srgenprp sr hp com blaisec sr hp com blaise cirelli writes i m thinking of buying a motorcycle whenever i tell people this i usually get an answer like why do you want to do that my brother sister cousin knows somebody who had a motorcycle and now they are brain dead as a result of an accident so the question i have is how dangerous is riding it s exactly as dangerous as it looks you re hard to see and have little protection keeping out of trouble means knowing your limits keeping your machine in good shape and being able to predict and make up for every stupid move that drivers make out there we deal with it because it s fun but staying alive takes a conscious effort i ve bike like jody levine dod kv got a you can if you pf jody p levine hydro on ca ride it toronto ontario canada
rec.motorcycles	re insurance and lotsa points in article apr bcars a bnr ca keithh bnr ca keith hanlan writes in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes well it looks like i m f cked for insurance i had a dwi in and for the beemer as a rec vehicle it ll cost me almost bucks to insure year now what do i do sell the bike and the car and start taking the bus that way you can keep drinking which seems to be where your priorities lay i expect that enough of us on this list have lost friends because of driving drunks that our collective sympathy will be somewhat muted look guy i doubt anyone here approves of drunk driving but if he s been caught and convicted and punished maybe you ought to lighten up i mean it isn t like most of us haven t had a few and then ridden or driven home we just didn t get caught and i can speak for myself and say it will never happen again but that is beside the point in answer to the original poster i d insure whatever vehicle is cheapest and can get you to and from work and suffer through it for a few years til your rates drop and don t drink and drive i had one friend killed by a drunk and i was rear ended by one totaling my bike bent frame and only failing to kill me because i had an eye on my mirror while i waited at the stoplight regards charles dod rz within the span of the last few weeks i have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person
rec.motorcycles	re dogs in article c pntm co cbnewsj cb att com car cbnewsj cb att com charles a rogers writes this tactic depends for its effectiveness on the dog s conformance to a psychological norm that may not actually apply to a particular dog i ve tried it with some success before but it won t work on a charlie manson dog or one that s really really stupid a large irish setter taught me this in my yard apparently his territory one day i m sure he was playing a game with me the game was probably kill the very angry neighbor before he can dispense the terrible punishment what a dog weighs lb maybe at max you can t handle it you have i presume thumbs grapple with it and tear it s head off sheesh even a trained attack dog is no match for a human we have all the advantages regards charles dod rz within the span of the last few weeks i have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article stafford stafford winona msus edu stafford vax winona msus edu john stafford writes on apr gmt xlyx vax cit cornell edu said is it possible to do a wheelie on a motorcycle with shaft drive yes but the rear wheel comes off the ground not the front see it just hops into the air figure john stafford sure you can do wheelies with a shaft drive bike i had a bmw r rs that was a wheelie monster of course it didn t have the initial power burst to just twist it into the air i had to pop the clutch i also had to replace front fork seals a few times as well the fairing is a bit heavy to be slamming down onto those little stantion tubes all the time but let me give you fair warning i trashed the ring pinion gear in the final drive of my k i assume doing wheelies and this was no cheap fix either there is some kind of slip device in the shaft to prevent it from breaking unfortunately it didn t save the gears on the topic of wheelies the other day i saw a kid on a big hurricane do a stoppy or rear wheelie man he had the rear end on this bike up about feet off the ground at a traffic light i don t recommend these activities anymore now that i m an old guy with kids of my own but it looked damn impressive if you can t keep both tires on the ground at least have em pointed in that direction cheers b
rec.motorcycles	re insurance and lotsa points in article apr iscnvx lmsc lockheed com jrlaf sgi msd lmsc lockheed com j r laferriere writes now now keith just calm down what are you some prohibitionist prick the point of andrew infante s posting was obvious to solicit suggestions pertaining to the cost of insurance and the like i don t care if you are madd or sadd or whatever keep it to yourself we d all appreciate that well simply put drinking is irrelavent driving drunk is indefensable and unforgivable there is a large differnece but then with an attitude like yours i expect you ll be dead soon i just hope you don t take a human being out with you dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com i m getting tired of concours mmmmmmmmmm beating you up dave rz ring ding woops you never learn ama dod cog chicago beth bruiser dixon
rec.motorcycles	re new to motorcycles in article apr adobe com cjackson adobe com curtis jackson writes in article apr alw nih gov gregh niagara dcrt nih gov gregory humphreys writes i only have about to work with so that would have to cover everything bike helmet anything else that i m too ignorant to know i need to buy the following numbers are approximate and will no doubt get me flamed helmet new but cheap jacket used or very cheap gloves nothing special motorcycle safety foundation riding course a must wow courses in georgia are much cheaper for both the list looks good but i d also add heavy boots work hiking combat or similar think peace alan alanf eng tridom com kotbbbb gsxr j ama dod pgp key available
rec.motorcycles	strange experience hi i t was very nice out yesterday in the burgh so i rode my bike to my gynecologist appointment when he came in to do the exam he noticed my helmet sitting on a chair he got excited and picked it up and started asking all sorts of questions about bikes and dealers in the area and the msf course apparently he rode a friends for a while years ago and recently the bug to ride caught him again needless to say i had never before talked about bikes so much in such a position if ya know what i mean chris hogan ch c andrew cmu edu cb soft as the massacre of suns by evening s sabres slain emily dickinson
rec.motorcycles	re good reasons to wave at each other in article mavenry altcit eskimo com maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer writes one of those morning just getting the coffee in me thoughts waving at other bikers makes more sense than just hey how s it going nice to meet you on the road have a good ride if you re watching for other bikes to wave to it means your attention is on the road where it should be and you re more likely to see cages it keeps you in the habit of watching really carefully for bikes when you re in a cage this is a good thing the down side is that when i m in my cage i have on numerous occasions slammed my hand into the rolled up window in an effort to wave at a passing biker ow the beav mike beavington bellnorthernresearch ottawa ont canada dod seca seca rz seca suzuki seca turbo v sabre gts can t afford the mbeaving bnr ca parking spaces we don t need no steenkin parking spaces
rec.motorcycles	harley davidson mailing list an email taste sensation anyone interesting in a mailing list for harley davidson bikes lifestyle politics h o g and whatever over members from countries make it may subscribe by sending a request to harley request thinkage on ca or uunet ca thinkage harley request your request to join should have a signature or something giving your full email address do not rely on the header from field being useful to me this is not an automated listserv facility do not expect instant gratification the list is a digest format scheduled for twice a day members of the harley list may obtain back issues and subject index listings pictures etc via an email archive server server access is restricted to list subscribers only ftp access real soon other motorcycle related lists i ve heard of not run by me these addresses may or may not be current stroke strokes request microunity com dirt dirt request zygot ati com european listserv frigg isc br com racing race request formula corp sun com digest request formula corp sun com short riding short request smarmy sun com wet leather listserv frigg isc br com it climbs the hills like a matchless cause my honda s built really light brian wilson honda honda
rec.motorcycles	re dogs in article apr acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes what a dog weighs lb maybe at max you can t handle it you have i presume thumbs grapple with it and tear it s head off sheesh even a trained attack dog is no match for a human we have all the advantages regards charles dod rz professionals who train guard dogs when polled gave themselves a in chance of survival tackling a trained dog unarmed a trained guard dog is not to be trifled with an untrained mutt may be another story obmoto a local dog used to chase me all the time really annoying i finally started stopping every time he d chase me he didn t know what to do then and would usually just slink off the road after a couple weeks of this he stopped chasing me altogether he would still chase cars or other bikes though i think he recognized me when i went by mike heathman vx briar rose dod lilly research t titan awaiting resurrection indianapolis in where am i to go now that i ve gone too far
rec.motorcycles	need parts info for maicoletta scooter posted for a friend looking for tires dimensions x or also looking for brakes or info on relining existing shoes also any other maicoletta owners anywhere to have contact with call scott at or email me i saw fops by the thousand sew themselves together round the lloyds building disclaimer my writings have nothing to do with my employer keep it that way pete ashdown pashdown slack sim es com salt lake city utah
rec.motorcycles	re new to motorcycles motorcycle safety foundation riding course a must wow courses in georgia are much cheaper for both in maryland they were each when i learned to ride years ago now it s for the beginner riders course and for the experienced riders course which admittedly takes only about half the time d
rec.motorcycles	wrecked bmw do you or does anyone you know have a wrecked or later r anything or r anything that they are interested in getting rid of i need a motor but will buy a whole bike email replies to david braun ftcollinsco ncr com or dab vuse vanderbilt edu or phone x voice mail home
rec.motorcycles	what is a squid was re riceburner respect in article c qqxp ie cbmvax cbm commodore com hartzler cbmvax cbm commodore com jerry hartzler cats writes in article apr icomsim com mmanning icomsim com michael manning writes duck squids don t wave or return waves ever even to each excuse me for being an ignoramus but what are these squids are everybody but me and you chris behanna is especially a squid dana h myers kk jq views expressed here are mine and do not necessarily dana locus com dod reflect those of my employer this extra supports the abolition of the and wpm tests
rec.motorcycles	where to put your helmet cb from behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna cb maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer writes cb cb grf dropped my shoei rf off the seat of my bike while trying to cb rock cb it onto it s centerstand chipped the heck out of the paint on it cb do i have to be the one to say it cb don t be so stupid as to leave your helmet on the seat where it can cb fall down and go boom cb helmets go on the ground on a table on a chair on a shelf or on cb any other surface that is large enough to support them so that they cb will not easily be knocked down another good place for your helmet is your mirror i kid you not if you own a typical standard or other bike with fairly average mirrors that screw into your handlebars your helmet should fit over your mirror and be fairly stable i doubt i have to mention it but this trick isn t quite so smart on a goldwing cbr any gsxr or any bike with fairing mounted mirrors i was a little surprised though to find that you had your helmet on your seat while you were centerstanding your bike i usually leave my helmet on until my bike is parked if for no other reason than i wouldn t want my helmet to be on any surface that i was about to start tilting and jerking ryan cousinetc yamaha vision xz black pig of inverness live to ride kotrb ajs c s king rat to work to dod i d be a squid if i could afford the bike flame to ryan cousineau compdyn questor org vancouver bc canada live i saw the quote below on a pair of nankai race replica leathers i think this sort of phrase is typically known as japlish slmr a drive agressively rash magnificently nankai leathers computer dynamics bbs hst v vancouver bc canada easy access low rates friendly sysop
rec.motorcycles	spagthorpe viking ds from viking iastate edu dan sorenson ds ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau writes ds riding up the hill leading to my ds house i encountered a liver and white springer spaniel no relation to ds the springer softail or the springer spagthorpe a close relation to ds the spagthorpe viking ds i must have missed the article on the spagthorpe viking was ds that the one with the little illuminated dragon s head on the front ds fender a style later copied by indian and the round side covers no not at all the viking was a trick little unit made way back when forties fifties when spag was trying to make a go of it in racing the first iteration the springer was a boxer twin very similar to max friz s famous design but with an overhead point cam see below for more on the valvetrain the problem was that the thing had no ground clearance whatsoever the solution was to curve the cylinder bores so that the ground clearance was substantially increased springer motor front viking motor front this is roughly the idea except that the bores were gradually curved around a radius as the pistons were loath to make a sharp angled turn in the middle of their stroke the engine also had curved connecting rods to accomodate the stroke the engine stuck out so far because of its revolutionary and still unique overhead cam system through the use of clever valve timing and and extrordinarily trick valve linkage only a single cam lobe was required to drive both overhead valves just as revolutionary was the hydraulic valve actuation which used a pressurized stream of oil to power the waterwheel which kept the lobe spinning over one side effect that required some rather brutal engineering fixes was that until the engine s oil pressure came up to normal the engine s valve timing would be more or less random resulting in some impressive start up valve damage the solution was a little hand crank that pressurized the cases before you started the beast remarkably similar to the system used in new porsches to pressurize the oil system before the car is started the cage however uses an electric oil pump wimps despite this fix the engine had a nasty propensity for explosively firing its valves into the pistons when a cylinder would temporarily lose a bit of oil pressure in a corner the solution was to run even higher oil pressures and change the gaskets and seals regularly this was feasible because it was a racing engine with just a single overhead lobe and no pushrod shaft chain towers because of the hydraulic system the head of the engine came to an almost perfect point lobe xx complex linkage not shown due to valvestems complexity piston note that the tip was not truly vertical it was at about a degree angle to the ground and this drawing doesn t show the curvature because there was none in the head itself the bore curve would start about where the cylinder bore disappears in this diagram the effect of the pointy heads on top of a pair of gently pundits of the day even said sensuously curved cylinders was much like a pair of finned viking horns poking out from beneath the gas tank thus the name the vik was a moderately successful racer lightning fast when it worked but plagued by problems relating to its revolutionary technology eventually it was dumped when spag finally realized that racing was not where the spagthorpe name would be made the machines were raced for another year or two by privateers and their fate approximately six vikings were made plus one or possibly two springers confusing the issue is one old spag staffer who swears up and down that this machine was tooled for production and that as many as twenty or thirty machines may have come off the line however no modern record of a production viking has survived and most motorcycle historians discount this story ryan cousinetc yamaha vision xz black pig of inverness live to ride kotrb ajs c s king rat to work to dod i d be a squid if i could afford the bike flame to ryan cousineau compdyn questor org vancouver bc canada live slmr a if you aren t sliding you aren t riding computer dynamics bbs hst v vancouver bc canada easy access low rates friendly sysop
rec.motorcycles	krypto cables was re cobra locks in article apr research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna writes for the same money you can get a kryptonite cable lock which is anywhere from to thick steel cable looks like steel rope shielded in a flexible covering to protect your bike s finish and has a barrel type locking mechanism i don t know if it s adjustable but my source says it s more difficult to pick than most locks and the cable tends to squish flat in bolt cutter jaws rather than shear model fyi i ll be getting a krypto cable next paycheck a word of warning though kryptonite also sells almost useless cable locks under the kryptonite name when i obtained my second motorcycle i migrated one of my kryptonite u locks from my bicycle to the new bike i then went out shopping for a new lock for the bicycle for about the same money i had the choice of a kryptonite cable lock advantages lock front and back wheels on bicycle and keep them both kryptonite name or a cheesy no name u lock advantages real steel i chose the kryptonite cable after less than a week i took it back in disgust and exchanged it for the cheesy no name u lock first the krypto cable i bought is not made by kryptonite is not covered by the kryptonite guarantee and doesn t even approach kryptonite standards of quality and quality assurance it is just some generic made in taiwan cable lock with the kryptonite name on it secondly the latch engagement mechanism is something of a joke i don t know if mine was a particularly poor example but it was often quite frustrating to get the latch to positively engage and sometimes it would seem to engage only to fall open when i went to unlock it thirdly the lock has a little plastic door on the keyway which serves the sole purpose of frustrating any attempt to insert the key in the dark i didn t try it obviously but i have my doubts that the lock mechanism would stand up to an insert screwdriver and torque attack fourthly the cable was not in my opinion of sufficient thickness to deter theft for my piece of crap bicycle that is all cables suffer the weakness that they can be cut a few strands at a time if you are patient you can cut cables with fingernail clippers aviation snips would go through the cable in well under a minute michael robinson uucp ucbvax cogsci robinson internet robinson cogsci berkeley edu
rec.motorcycles	re for johs dhhalden no last nick pettefar npet bnr ca wrote tsk tsk tsk another newbie bites the dust eh they ll learn newbie sorry to disappoint you but as far as the internet goes i was in baghdad while you were still in your dads bag most of the people who made this group interesting or years ago are no longer around and i only have time to make a random sweep once a week or so hence i missed most of this thread based on your previous postings apparently devoid of humour sarcasm wit or the apparent capacity to walk and chew gum at the same time i assumed you were serious mea culpa still it s nice to see that bnr are doing so well that they can afford to overpay some contractors to sit and read news all day pete young pky fmg bt co uk phone most people prefer entertaining nonsense to unexciting reality
rec.motorcycles	re bmw moa members read this in article apr sarvax cmhnet org frog sarvax cmhnet org jeff frog campbell writes from article c px n kw murdoch acc virginia edu by cdw t dayhoff med virginia edu dances with federal rangers obmotowashing is it just me or does everyone cut their finger s on the evil cotterpin tm lurking somewhere in the dark recesses of the back end of the bike when giving the prized moto a bath i seem to slice the pinkie of one hand or the other every time both of them this time it s you beemers have no ec tm oh yes they do but considering i never wash my bmw unless i need to work on it i never get cuts untill the tools come out altho the best scar now faded was from the exhaust piper while try to change the oil after overheating the engine watch out for idiot drivers that won t let you pass in the mountains when you have a rider case of oil it was on sale and case of beer with a drain bolt that decided to seize just how does everyone else clean out the area under the transmission on a bmw r bike they only way i have found is to remove the engine and transmission that and the clutch arm are impossible to clean which is wear one of the ec s m are located laz ps anyone know where i can get the heads polished and ported cheap also how much should that run
rec.motorcycles	question this is probably a stupid question but as i am new to the motorcycle scene i don t really know anything about it what is dod thanks jonathan d fields fields cis ohio state edu
rec.motorcycles	re uh der whassa deltabox in article c kxal izc ccu umanitoba ca klinger ccu umanitoba ca jorg klinger writes i beleive it s called the dentabox frame nothing some putty and paint won t fix this from someone riding a gsxr gutsy
rec.motorcycles	need advice for riding with someone on pillion i need some advice on having someone ride pillion with me on my ninja this will be the the first time i ve taken anyone for an extended ride read farther than around the block we ll be riding some twisty fairly bumpy roads the mines road mt hamilton loop for you sf bay areans this person is lbs and fairly small so i don t see weight as too much of a problem but what sort of of advice should i give her before we go i want her to hold onto me rather than the grab rail out back and i ve heard that she should look over my shoulder in the direction we re turning so she leans with me but what else are there traditional signals for slow down or go faster or i hafta go pee etc i really want this to be a positive experience for us both mainly so that she ll want to go with me again so any help will be appreciated thanks bob bob wert rmw genie gene com rwert well sf ca us dod ama ninja r mustang lx seven turns on the highway seven rivers to cross sometimes you feel like you can fly away sometimes you get lost
rec.motorcycles	yamaha vs honda opinions i am in hte market for a new bike been without for a few years the two main bikes i m looking at seriously are the yamaha virago and the honda shadow vlx i am leaning towards the yamaha for its shaft drive the honda is chain insurance in fla is more costly than i thought so i am staying in this power range thanks in advance for any opinions and or experiences
rec.motorcycles	re your opinion and what it means to me so take you own advice and wuit you whining about flames no brains and he can t spell either edu i hope you re not a student at duke you would be wasting your tuition the beav mike beavington dod v sabre mbeaving bnr ca my employer has no idea what i m talking about
rec.motorcycles	re your opinion and what it means to me in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes well as a few of you so aptly put it get off the road jerk we don t wanna hear your whining fine fuck off too if you noticed it was in more than two years ago and yes i ve learned and it s cost me and yes i ve known people friends and relatives who ve been involved in drunk related accidents not them they were hit and my cousin is still recovering no i can t take back what happened yes it was stupid but by reminding me about it all the time you re neither helping me or yourself so stuff your opinion hey man you brought it up i agree completely driving drunk is really stupid and i understand and appreciate that you feel bad about it but dwi is endemic in our society it is a real problem and we as motorcyclists can be in the worst of vulnerable positions around a drunk driver alert readers might remember that last year i witnessed a dwi accident right bloody in front of me and was unable to save the life of one of the participants as i reported here also drunk driving by motorcyclists is a prime cause of their injury and death which raises the insurance rates forces stupidly restrictive laws and turns the public against those of us who ride responsibly in my view drunk driving should carry a mandatory prison sentence it is one of the traffic offenses which is not a public funds issue but a genuine safety issue so if you bring up the subject on rec moto admitting having been caught dwi and looking for sympathy over the consequences don t expect people to respond with warm wishes dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com i m getting tired of concours mmmmmmmmmm beating you up dave rz ring ding woops you never learn ama dod cog chicago beth bruiser dixon
rec.motorcycles	racelist who what where greetings fellow motorcycle roadracing enthusiasts background the racing listserver boogie ebay sun com contains discussions devoted to racing and racing related topics this is a pretty broad interest group individuals have a variety of backgrounds motojournalism roadracing from the perspective of pit crew and racers engineering motosports enthusiasts the size of the list grows weekly we are currently at a little over one hundred and eighty five members with contributors from new zealand australia germany france england canada finland switzerland and the united states the list was formed october in response to a perceived need to both provide technical discussion of riding at the edge of performance roadracing and to improve on the very low signal to noise ratio found in rec motorcycles anyone is free to join discussion is necessarily limited by the rules of the list to issues related to racing motorcycles and is to be flame free how to get the daily distribution you are welcome to subscribe to subscribe send your request to race request boogie ebay sun com traffic currently runs between five and twenty five messages per day depending on the topic nb please do not send your subscription request to the list directly after you have contacted the list administrator you will receive an rsvp request please respond to this request in a timely manner so that you can be added to the list the request is generated in order to insure that there is a valid mail pathway to your site upon receipt of your rsvp you will be added to either the daily or digest distribution as per your initial request how to get the digest distribution it is possible to receive the list in digest ed form ie a single email message the roadracing digest is mailed out whenever it contains enough interesting content given the frequency of postings this appears to be about every other day should you wish to receive the list via digest once every k or so please send a subscription request to digest request boogie ebay sun com how to post to the list this is an open forum to post an article to the list send to race boogie ebay sun com depending on how mail is set up at your site you may or may not see the mail that you have posted if you want to see it though this isn t necessarily a guarantee that it went out you can include a metoo line in your mailrc file on unix based mail systems bounces because i haven t had the time or the inclination to replace the list distribution mechanism we still have a problem with bounces returning to the poster of a message occasionally sites or users go off line either leaving their place of employment prematurely or hardware problems and you will receive bounces from the race list check the headers carefully and if you find that the bounce originated at sun from whence i administer this list contact me through my administration hat race request boogie ebay sun com if not ignore the bounce other lists two strokes strokes microunity com harleys harley request thinkage on ca or uunet watmath thinkage harley request european bikes majordomo onion rain com in body of message write subscribe euro moto thanks be seeing you rich race list administrator rich boogie ebay sun com stefan fielding isaacs office fax dba art science books by design voice pager ama ccs currently providing consulting writing services to gain technology verity
rec.motorcycles	re kreme in article apr vax cit cornell edu na vax cit cornell edu writes hi folks recently saw one post about kreme being a bad idea but that was only one man s opinion any one else have any experience with the stuff on my sporty i had some pinhole leaks open up on the back seam i kreme it about a year ago and have had no problems at all be real careful as the cleaning part of the solution is hell on paint jim jim groh groh sig cs fsu edu dod hog new improved xlh fxr xlh xlh smaller sig
rec.motorcycles	re riceburner respect in apr icomsim com mmanning icomsim com michael manning writes in article oxz b w w cellar org craig cellar org saint craig writes shz mare att com keeper of the tude writes most people wave or return my wave when i m on my harley other harley riders seldom wave back to me when i m on my duck squids don t wave or return waves ever even to each other from what i can tell when we take a hand off the bars we fall down jorg klinger gsxr if you only new who arch eng services lost horizons cr i think i am umanitoba man ca the embalmer it anonymous squidonk
rec.motorcycles	re uh der whassa deltabox in ramarren kops apple com ramarren apple com godfrey digiorgi writes can someone tell me what a deltabox frame is and what relation that has if any to the frame on my hawk gt that way next time some guy comes up to me in some parking lot and sez hey dude nice bike is that a deltabox frame on there i can say something besides duh er huh i beleive it s called the dentabox frame nothing some putty and paint won t fix jorg klinger gsxr if you only new who arch eng services lost horizons cr i think i am umanitoba man ca the embalmer it anonymous squidonk
rec.motorcycles	re motorcycle detailing tip in article apr hemlock cray com ant palm cray com tony jones writes how about someone letting me know motorcycle detailing tip the far side of my instrument panel was scuffed when the previous owner dumped the bike same is true for one of the turn signals both of the scuffed areas are black plastic i recall reading somewhere that there was some plastic compound you could coat the scuffed areas with then rub it down ending with a nice smooth shiny finish in the may motorcyclist pg someone writes in and recomends using rubberized undercoating for this von welch vwelch ncsa uiuc edu ncsa networking development group cbr f kz subaru gl wd i speak only for myself and those who think exactly like me
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post in article l a well sf ca us pstone well sf ca us philip k stone writes hey ed how do you explain the fact that you pull on a horse s reins left to go left or am i confusing two threads here three actually i believe i discussed countersteering a horse before basically there are two ways to steer a horse plow rein and neck rein plow reining steers him by keeping the reins separate and you pull in the direction you wish to go neck reining steers a horse by holding the reins together in one hand and pulling against the horse s neck in the direction you wish to go when training a plow steering horse to neck rein one technique is to cross the reins under his necks thus when neck reining to the left the right rein pulls against the right side of the neck but the left side of the bit which the horse is used to from his plow reining days are you sorry you asked yet ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re observation re helmets in article u washington edu moseley u washington edu steve l moseley writes so what should i carry if i want to comply with intelligent helmet laws take up residence in a fantasy world ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	moving on well it s been fun this is my last day at bellcore and it will be a while before i have net access again taking time off and scheduling military schools for the summer on joint operations and anything else that looks good i have had a blast reading responding and commenting on things posted here my final say is mm s are inferior to s errr oh wrong news group hopefully i ll be back i guess internet withdrawl starts around pm or so and considering i never knew inet existed years ago i am really going to miss it oh yea to the guy who called me this morning about the military issue boots good luck i think you will be happy with the tankers boots there are only two types of ships in the navy submarines and targets xs lh dod next raise richard pierson e vnet internet fist iscp bellcore com uunet uunet bcr fist include std disclaimer my opinions are my own i don t shop in malls i buy my jeans jackets and ammo in the same store
rec.motorcycles	re aerostitch or piece in article apr vax cit cornell edu na vax cit cornell edu writes request for opinions which is better a one piece aerostitch or a two piece aerostitch we re looking for more than well the pc is more versatile but the pc is better protection thanks in advance nadine what is best books have been written on that but in regard to aerostich it really depends on your particular size shape and needs if you upper and lower body are not proportional according to aero dimensions then it probably is going to be better mixing and matching the piece suit i have the piece suit and i am very happy with it having my life quota of scars from crashing off road i am very concerned with good protection and i believe that the difference in protection between the and piece suits is almost negligible i think the optional hip pads and back protector make much more of a difference one thing that is nice about the piece is if you go somewhere and then want to walk around for a while still with jacket you can just detach and stow the pants one thing to note is that goldfine has problems getting a good fit for many women with standard suits supposedly for smaller women and petite men for that matter the piece will fit better another recommendation is to pay for mods if you need them i wish i got inches added to my pant legs i find the long suits are not really that long i can t imagine how short the standard suits must be jonathan e polito internet jpolito encore com encore computer corp kildaire farm rd cary nc usa voice fax
rec.motorcycles	re ggrrrrrr cages double parking motorc in article cs cmu edu jfriedl ri cmu edu jeffrey friedl writes egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher writes an apartment complex where i used to live tried this only they put the thing over the driver s window so they couldn t miss it i can see the liability of putting stickers on the car while it was moving or something but it s the bdi that chooses to start and then drive the car in a known unsafe condition that would seem to be liable an effort was made to remove the sticker it came to pieces leaving most of it firmly attached to the window it was dark and around pm the sticker before being mangled in an ineffective attempt to be torn off warned the car would be towed if not removed a reasonable person would arguably have driven the car had an accident occured i don t think my friend s attorney would have much trouble fixing blame on the apartment mangement as a practical matter even without a conviction the cost and inconvenience of defending against the suit would be considerable as a moral matter it was a pretty fucking stupid thing to do for so paltry a violation as parking without an authorization sticker btw it wasn t somebody s spot it was resident only but unassigned parking ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re tracing license plates of bdi cagers in article jamesf apple com jim franklin writes i can file a complaint about this and actually have the chance to have something done how who where a traffic citation is an accusation of having committed a crime that s why they have to go through the motions of having a trial if you want one you are still innocent until proven guilty cops are not the only ones who can accuse people of committing crimes anyone who witnesses a crime can do so go to the highway patrol and explain the situation give them a description of the car and the license number and tell them the specific violation of the law which you witnessed and wish to prosecute ie search the vehicle code and have the section number handy fill out the ticket and sign it it will go through the same system any ticket a cop writes goes through if contested you will have to appear in court to prosecute your word will not carry the same weight as a cop s ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	performance bike frenzy at cadwell is anyone going to the p b frenzy at cadwell park in may i am going but only to watch when asked what would i most want to try before doing it i said death
rec.motorcycles	re live free but quietly or die in article cvbnetprime com tjohnson tazmanian prime com tod johnson x writes i was able to avoid an accident by revving my engine and having my stock harley pipes make enough noise to draw someones attention sure there are horns but my hand is already on the throttle should we get into how many feet a bike going mph goes in seconds or how long it would take me to push my horn button if we do i think you d loose sure you re hand s already on the throttle and your thumb is already near the horn button pushing the horn button is one simple move revving the throttle requires either engaging the clutch or accelerating the first is a more complex manuver than a simple horn button push and the second ain t too bright when there is a potential hazard ahead besides the unique sound of a horn is more effective in attracting the attention of bdi cagers than is the sound of an engine which is what they expect to hear you are on the road as is usually the case a single anecdote hardly constitutes sound safety procedure the answer is feet ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	for sale kawasaki ex michigan for sale from ann arbor michigan kawasaki ex miles cherry red excellent condition asking contact brian at days evenings weekends or e mail at vaughan umich edu or reply to this post
rec.motorcycles	re bdi experience sebastian c sears on the tue apr gmt wibbled came around a right hand sweeper going around mph only to find a cager going around mph calmly driving along with no other traffic around in my lane not crossing the line not swerving fully and totally within the south bound lane of w one lane each direction and i haven t even got there yet must have been some other brit nick the english biker dod concise oxford left is right m lud nick pettefar contractor large currently incarcerated at bnr maidenhead the united kingdom npet bnr ca bmw k rs kay pres pbwasoh uk bs
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post mike sixsmith on the apr gmt wibbled very interesting yawn stuff deleted because i m like that formal training is in my view absolutely essential if you re going to be able to ride a bike properly and safely but by including countersteering theory in newbie courses we are confusing people unnecessarily right at the time when there are far more important matters for them to learn and that was my original point mike i am in complete concordance with you there mike i was a silver starrider instructor for a while i learn t about countersteering last year and i have been riding bikes since we were never told about countersteering when being taught to instruct it doesn t seem to have affected me or my friends or pupils we just rode in blissful ignorance nick the biker dod concise oxford m lud nick pettefar contractor large currently incarcerated at bnr maidenhead the united kingdom npet bnr ca bmw k rs kay pres pbwasoh uk bs
rec.motorcycles	re boom dog attack in article viking ponderous cc iastate edu viking iastate edu dan sorenson writes ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau writes mere mph or so gravel road with few loose rocks on it as in just like bad concrete and lbs of swinging beef jumped a fence came out of the ditch and rammed me when i saw her jump the fence i went for the gas since she was about feet ahead of me but a good forty to the side damn cow literally chased me down and nailed me no damage to cow a bent case guard and a severely annoyed rider were the only casualties if i had my shotgun i d still be eating steak nope if lbs of cow can hit me when i m actively evading forget a much more manueverable dog just run them over one day out riding my friend and i were passing a field of goats and noticed out on the road as we slowed to pass the ram made a dash at my friend just missing him and then tangling it self up in the barb wire fence being good samaritains and generally nice guys we turned around to untrangle the goat from the barbed wire as i pulled up next to him seeing him still tangled up stopped the bike and got off the goat had vanished into the field i guess jolly roger
rec.motorcycles	re got my bike was wanted advice on cb c purchase in article apr ncsu edu jrwaters eos ncsu edu jack rogers waters writes being a reletively new reader i am quite impressed with all the usefull info available on this newsgroup i would ask how to get my own dod number but i ll probably be too busy riding does this count yes he thought about it cat dod faq mailx s hahahha jburnside ll mit edu waiting to press return hey c mon guys and gals i chose my words very carefully and even tried to get my faq s straight don t holler bohica at me jamie w burnside cb custom o o jburnside ll mit edu kdx sold c cb for sale
rec.motorcycles	anti freeze anti freeze i was wrong still had the issue of street rodder in my last pile in the february issue on page there is an advirtisement for anti freeze and it makes a great party mixer the neo synthetic oil company has a reputation for developing overkill priducts the protect and extend the life of mechinical things and here is there latest development propylene glycol probably the finest radiator coolant available after miles of testing they find it has a boiling point of degrees much higher than conventional coolants which helps elminate detonation and pinging it allows the use of smaller radiators in race cars it will not damage aluminum blocks or heads and it is environmentally safe yep this is the good stuff baker precision products dept srm gundry ave long beach ca i neither endorse or unendorse the above product i only copied the advert blurb for others info ymmv there are only two types of ships in the navy submarines and targets xs lh dod next raise richard pierson e vnet internet fist iscp bellcore com uunet uunet bcr fist include std disclaimer my opinions are my own i don t shop in malls i buy my jeans jackets and ammo in the same store
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post in article zen sys uea ac uk mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith writes secondly it is the adhesion of the tyre on the road the suspension geometry and the ground clearance of the motorcycle which dictate how quickly you can swerve to avoid obstacles and not the knowledge of physics between the rider s ears are you seriously suggesting that countersteering knowledge enables you to corner faster or more competently than you could manage otherwise if he s not i will put two riders on identical machines it s the one who knows what he s doing and why that will be faster it may be possible to improve your technique if you have no idea what it is through trial and error but it is not very effective methodology only by understanding the technique of steering a motorcycle can one improve on that technique i hold that this applies to any human endeavor that s all it is an interesting bit of knowledge and to claim that it is essential for all bikers to know it or that you can corner faster or better as a result is absurd do you consider an understanding of the physics of traction absurd are you seriously suggesting that one can form a traction management policy without understanding what it is or what factors increase or decrease available traction braking it is highly unlikely that any biker is going to develop his maximum swerving ability without any knowledge of turning techniques for most of his riding life this may not be a problem but in an emergency situation it is very definately placing him at a disadvantage but by including countersteering theory in newbie courses we are confusing people unnecessarily right at the time when there are far more important matters for them to learn i disagree the existance and immense success of riding courses which teach the technique indicate that the concept can be taught in a manner that is neither confusing nor detracts from any other aspects of the course and that was my original point perhaps but in the ensuing discussion you strayed far from that point to claim that knowledge of steering technique is irrelevant to a rider s ability i find this assertion ludicrous ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker ed green east sun com and i showed him a picture of you i said dod go on get to know her you ll like her the grateful dead it seemed like the least i could do
rec.motorcycles	re bmw battery in article apr ra msstate edu vech ra msstate edu craig a vechorik writes if i remember correctly the reason that bmw s come with those expensive and relatively worthless short lived varda batteries is cause bmw owns a controling interest in that battery manufacturer what s wrong with the bmw battery i ve never had problems and i know numerous people that are still using the original battery in there year old beemers the original battery in an year old bmw may be fine mine lasted many years the replacement ah battery from bmw was a disaster the mechanic from comp acc told me that ca would warantee replace the bad one with a new one of the same evil bad batteries and tell the customer if they have problems to bring it back and they d do it again it seems that many of those ah batteries were doa near doa and always unlikely to be going strong by the end of the warantee period on them there was a big batch of bad ones and they replaced them with you guessed it more bad ones bmw switched to a ah battery that has more cold cranking amps even if it has less total juice i switched to a yuasa that has even more cold cranking amps and cost one third fewer dollars neil kirby dod nak archie cbusa att com at t bell labs columbus oh usa if you think i speak for at t you might have more lawyers than sense
rec.motorcycles	power arc ii ignition super e carb now the bike is off warranty i finally replaced the stock items on my softail custom with the title ones installation was pretty easy in both cases even for a fairly non mechanical chemist type dude like me i discovered the limitations of my tool collection but had fun buying and making the requisite tools mc ignitions power arc ii single fire ignition easy to install but read the wiring diagram carefully setting the static timing was a piece of cake once installed i have found easier starting smoother idle and more power plus a more satisfying to me bass note in the exhaust register a lovely whompa whompa whompa idle the folks at mc ignitions were great in answering my dumb questions on the phone a very helpful bunch of guys with a great product s s super e carb installation easy once i hacked down an allen wrench to a small anough reach to get at the intake manifold bolts tunes like a dream just like they say the stock carb non adjustable was so lean that it was gasping and spluttering for gas sometimes and even backfiring into the intake manifold the super e is terrific no hesitation in any gear and my plugs are a lovely tan color with no need to rejet from the factory settings i know this may not seem like much to you grizzled veteran wrenchers out there but i had my bike in so many pieces this weekend i began to get worried but it all went back together again and runs like a dream so i am feeling pretty happy now all i have to do is install my bub pipes and try to pass the nh noise gestapo test russ hughes fxstc dod e love yeah that s the feeling you get when you like something as much as your motorcycle sonny barger
rec.motorcycles	re bmw moa members read this in regards ot some of the posts concerning bias in articles of k bikes versis s or boxers of a later date or whatever jeezzz lighten up i wrote the slash two blues for a bit of humor which seems to be lacking in the moa owners news when most of the stuff is i rode the the first day i saw that i rode there the second day i saw this any body out there know were the sense if humor went in people i though i still had mine but i dunno regards craig vechorik bmw moa ambassador dod and hey i just want ya ll to vote o k for somebody instead of throwing it in the trash
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post in article qmetg g n sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes horse s neck in the direction you wish to go when training a plow steering horse to neck rein one technique is to cross the reins under his necks thus when neck reining to the left the right rein ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker given my desire to stay as far away as possible from farming and ranching equipment i really hate to jump into this thread i m going to anyway but i really hate it ed exactly what kind of mutant horse like entity do you ride anyway does countersteering work on the normal garden variety one necked horse obmoto i was flipping through the march i think issue of rider and i saw a small pseudo ad for a book on hand signals appropriate to motorcycling it mentioned something about a signal for your passenger is on fire any body know the title and author of this book and where i could get a copy this should not be understood as implying that i have grown sociable enough to ride with anyone but the book sounded cute tommy mcguire mcguire cs utexas edu mcguire austin ibm com i will append an appropriate disclaimer to outgoing public information identifying it as personal and as independent of ibm
rec.motorcycles	re recommendation for a front tire hey folks i ve got a pair of dunlop sportmax radials of my zx and they ve been very sticky ie no slides yet but all this talk about the metzelers has me wondering if my next set should be a lazer comp k and a radial metzeler rear for hard sport touring how do the choices stack up nathaniel zx dod ama
rec.motorcycles	re ducati opinions wanted in a previous article bgardner pebbles es com blaine gardner says in article qhm mbs news ysu edu ak yfn ysu edu albion h bowers writes in a previous article markb wc novell com m burnham says ducati s are really slow they don t sell them over here in us but considering that the ss is not too powerful the is gonna be a dog oh yeah at mph in the quarter is such a slug come on when was the last time you used your s max power peak i think maybe you should ride one first before passing judgement there is a lot more than just maximum acceleration i guess i m out of touch but what exactly is the ducati a v twin desmo or is it that half a v twin with the balance weight where the nd cylinder would go a second for a isn t bad at all sorry i should have been more specific the ss ran the quater in the last small v twin duc we got in the us and the is a pantah based v twin was the sl pantah and it ran a creditable modern carbs and what not should put the in the high s at btw fzr s ran mid s and the latest crop of japanese s will out run that it s hard to remember but but a new goof will clobber an old kz handily both in top end and roll on technology stands still for no one al bowers dod alfa ducati hobie kottke blad iaido nasa well goodness sakes don t you know that girls can t play guitar mary chapin carpenter
rec.motorcycles	re live free but quietly or die in article qmi g n sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes in article cvbnetprime com tjohnson tazmanian prime com tod johnson x writes sure there are horns but my hand is already on the throttle should we get into how many feet a bike going mph goes in seconds or how long it would take me to push my horn button the answer is feet ed green former ninjaite i was drinking last night with a biker try something like feet edgetacalculator tommy mcguire mcguire cs utexas edu mcguire austin ibm com i will append an appropriate disclaimer to outgoing public information identifying it as personal and as independent of ibm
rec.motorcycles	re changing sprocket ratios honda cb cbrooks ms uky edu clayton brooks writes do any honda gurus know if i can replace the the front sprocket on my honda cb k with a slightly larger one i see this as being preferable to reducing the size of the rear one just wanting ride at a more relaxed rpm it can be done contact chaparell cycle supply they ought to have the sprocket you need want for cheap well much cheaper than your average dealership hey they even had sprockets for my vf r which is hard to find accesssories for craig vf r intecptor pilot craig cellar org the institute dod kotk keeper of the keepers bauds fuschal the promised land where those who have faith shall wear hats of great majesty yea though they be made of cardboard and have humourous arrows through them red dwarf
rec.motorcycles	re boom dog attack ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau writes blind driveway at mph for that matter how many driveways are long enough for a car to hit mph by the end i eagerly await comment well my driveway is just keep an eye out for the blue glh turbo that utilizes the hit the ground running merging technique at least i don t have a dog that you need worry about last week while entering a sand gravel covered intersection in the country i caught something unkosher out of the corner of my eye you know that disgusting sensation when great as of yet unidentified evil is about to intimately acquaint itself with you kind of like knowing that that darkening shadow around you just cannot possibly be anything even remotely good because it probably has something to do with a boeing behaving gravitationally speaking much like a brick negotiating my way into this intersection that somehow reminded me of daytona beach sans h o sun babes i manage to get a glance at my impending destiny lucifer s own dog hell s secret blend of canine doberman and rottweiler it moved with the grace of a doberman yet had the hulk and jowels of the rottweiler a creature with a definite wrong end to be at the picture in my mirrors was fuzzy but there was no mistaking the fangs and saliva trail to shorten a verbose tale my burly gaurdian angels once again performed above and beyond the call of duty carried the bike through the sand trap i honestlyhave no idea how and left the minion of beelzebub with a face that suspiciously resembles a metzler tread no blood though rats moral i m not really sure but more and more i believe that bikers ought to be allowed to carry handguns erc c eric sundheim grandrapids mi usa hondo vfr f dod
rec.motorcycles	re european m c insurance h marc lewis there are two kinds of people in the world olivetti north america those who divide everything in the world into marcl mail spk olivetti com two kinds of things and those who don t i thought it was there are two kinds of people in the world those who think there are two kinds of people and those who don t and then there s there are three kinds of people in the world those who like math and those who don t obmoto michigan weather forecast for saturday high in the low s chance of snow flurries showers possible enjoy the weather where you are have a ride on me phil de haan dod why yes that is my honda cl that s the nature of being an executive in america you have to rely on other people to do something you used to do yourself donald fehr executive director major league baseball players association
rec.motorcycles	route suggestions as i won t be able to make the joust this summer job related time conflict i plan instead on going to the rider rally in knoxville i ll be leaving from chicago and generally plan on going down along the indiana illinois border into kentucky and then tennessee i would be very interested in hearing suggestions of roads routes areas that you would consider must ride while on the way to knoxville i can leave as early as and need to arrive in knoxville by pm on that leaves me a pretty good stretch of time to explore on the way by the way if anyone else is going and would like to partner for the ride down let me know i ll be heading east afterward to visit family but sure don t mind company on the ride down to the rally depending on weather et al my plan is motelling tenting thru the trip from the rally i ll be heading up the blue ridge parkway then jogging into west va i to run up marlington petersburg e i i e after this point the route is presently undetermined into pennsylvania new york and back to chicago by suggestions for these areas would be of great interest also many thanks for your ideas enjoy steve bunis sun microsystems dod st itasca il ama kz are you sure this is april b
rec.motorcycles	re where to put your helmet on apr gmt ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau said cb don t be so stupid as to leave your helmet on the seat where it can cb fall down and go boom ryan another good place for your helmet is your mirror i kid you not this is very bad advice helmets have two major impact absorbing layers a hard outer shell and a closed cell foam impact layer most helmets lose their protective properties because the inner liner compacts over time long before the outer shell is damaged or delaminates from age dr hurt tested helmets for many years following his landmark study and has estimated that a helmet can lose up to of it s effectiveness from inner liner compression i have a video he produced that discusses this phenomenon in detail puncture compression of the type caused by mirrors sissy bars and other relatively sharp objects is the worst offender even when the comfort liner is unaffected dents and holes in the foam can seriously degrade the effectiveness of a helmet if you are in the habit of parking your lid on the mirrors i suggest you look under the comfort liner at the condition of the foam if it is significantly damaged or missing replace the helmet jerry lotto lotto lhasa harvard edu msfci hogssc bcso ama dod chemistry dept harvard univ it s my harley and i ll ride if i want to
rec.motorcycles	re wanted advice for new cylist in article c r ey mq srgenprp sr hp com blaisec sr hp com blaise cirelli writes so the question i have is how dangerous is riding tough question more dangerous than driving a car and far more dangerous if you don t apply a modicum of intelligence to the activity basically stupidity will get you hurt killed a lot faster on a motorcycle than in a car but with care it is not unreasonably dangerous also buying good protective clothing is helpful that way if something does go wrong you are likely to be less severely injured first thing if possible take a msf driver training course this will get you started on the right foot they teach control of the vehicle and safe riding practices second buy protective gear at minimum a good helmet and a pair of leather gloves are a must a good sturdy piece of footgear is also very helpful though leather hiking boots a pair of old army boots or something similar works fine for this purpose as long as you make sure the laces stay tied after those a leather jacket and leather pants or chaps are nice as well but these are also expensive items for the pants many people consider a good pair of jeans to be reasonable preferably recent and of a fairly heavy weight similarly for a jacket a good jean jacket is a reasonable compromise though more people tend to have leather jackets around than pants another thing to do is drop in on garage sales looking for a second hand leather jacket look for a fairly thick leather in these items third don t do anything stupid don t ride after drinking even one drink can noticeably affect you judgement and balance don t ride in the snow or when conditions are such that black ice is likely be very careful riding in the rain slow way down take corners gingerly brake early and gently try not to ride if you are sick tired taking any medication with drowsiness warnings or otherwise not in average shape with care you should be ok the next question i have is what bike would you recommend for a first time rider i don t want to race nor do i want to ride cross country nor do i want to ride on dirt trails i ll probably drive it on back roads with occasional rides on city streets and freeways the maximum i can spend is about so i ll be looking at a used bike i would suggest mid to late s japanese mid sized standard something in cc range would probably be reasonable if you are shorter lighter than average you might want to go as low as a cc bike possible models the suzuki gs series eg gs gs etc these are generally inline bikes generally dependable except for a tendency to weakness in the charging system stator and or regulator rectifier problems my first bike was a about gs it server me well the honda nighthawk series this may also be known as the cb series i think eg honda cb cb etc this is another series of standard motorcycles also fairly dependable kawasaki and yamaha probably have similar bikes but i don t know them as well for mid to late s models of the above you should be able to buy the bike for under leaving you money for protective clothing and insurance and licensing costs hope this helps david dagibbs qnx com
rec.motorcycles	re need advice for riding with someone on pillion in article c t dsc well sf ca us rwert well sf ca us bob wert writes i need some advice on having someone ride pillion with me on my ninja this will be the the first time i ve taken anyone for an extended ride read farther than around the block we ll be riding some twisty fairly bumpy roads the mines road mt hamilton loop for you sf bay areans i d say this is a very bad idea you should start out with something much mellower so that neither one of you get in over your head that particular road requires full concentration not the sort of thing you want to take a passenger on for the first time once you both decide that you like riding together and want to do something longer and more challenging then go for a hard core road like mines mt hamilton in any case it s your moral responsibility to make sure that she has proper gear that fits especially if you re going sport riding eric
rec.motorcycles	re new to motorcycles in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes curtis jackson pens msf course shyah the one here only costs izzat a deal or what they are free in philadelphia cb dod i would give my right arm to be ambidextrous
rec.motorcycles	re what is a squid was re riceburner respect in article apr locus com dana lando la locus com dana h myers writes in article c qqxp ie cbmvax cbm commodore com hartzler cbmvax cbm commodore com jerry hartzler cats writes in article apr icomsim com mmanning icomsim com michael manning writes duck squids don t wave or return waves ever even to each excuse me for being an ignoramus but what are these squids are everybody but me and you chris behanna is especially a squid hey dana long time no read i m afraid the squid rating has gone up slightly since getting the ninja but i m trying very hard to restrain myself the bodywork is just too damned expensive knock knock at least it s quiet later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	re ok so i was a little hasty in article speedy engr latech edu speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer writes this was changed here in louisiana when a girl went to court and won her case by claiming to be stoned on pot not intoxicated on liquor geez what happened she got a ticket for driving too slow dod technician dr speed not student oh are you saying you re not an edu breath then okay dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com i m getting tired of concours mmmmmmmmmm beating you up dave rz ring ding woops you never learn ama dod cog chicago beth bruiser dixon
rec.motorcycles	st ride sixteen days i had put off test driving the honda st finally the th was a saturday without much rain in fact it cleared up became warm and sunny and the wind died about three weeks ago i took a long cool ride on the hawk down to cycles for a test ride they had sold and delivered the demo st about fifteen hours before i arrived and the demo vfr was bike locked in the showroom surrounded by other bikes and not likely to move soon today was different there were even more bikes used dirt bikes used street bikes cars and a big tent full of outlandishly fat touring bikes with trailers were all squeezed in the parking lot some sort of fat bike convention shelly and dave were running one msf course each at the same time one in the classroom and one on the back lot plus there was the usuall free cookout food that cycles gives away every weekend in the summer hmmm it seemed like a big moto party after about ten minutes of looking for rob c cheif of sales slime and another minutes reading and signing a long disclosure libility pray to god form i helped jt push the st out into the mess in the parking lot we went over the the controls i put the tank bag from the hawk into the right saddlebag and my wife put everything else into the left saddlebag thats nice having helped push the st out to the lot i thought it best to have jt move it to the edge of the road away from the bikes and people he rode it like a bicycle it cant be that heavy i thought well i was wrong as i sat on the st both feet down all i could think was big then i put one foot up heavy came to mind very quickly with cindy on the back was she on the back hard to tell with seat three times as large as a hawk seat the bike seemed nearly out of control just idling on the side of the road by rpm in second gear all the weight seemed to dissappear even on bike with miles on the odometer slippery new tires and pads that did not yet bite the disks things seems smooth and sure cycles is on a section of that few folks ever ride about miles north of the computer concentration about five miles north of where i splits away is a lighly travelled two lane limited access highway it goes through heavily forested sections of hamilton manchester by the sea and newbury on its way to gloucester on its way there it meets a road that winds from the sea about miles inland to andover on its way it goes through many thoroughly new england spots perfect if slow sport touring sections cindy has no difficulty with speed rd gear th gear purring along in top gear this thing has less low rpm grunt that my hawk lane changes were a new experience a big heft is required to move this thing responds well though no wallowing or complaint behind the fairing it was fairly quiet but the helmet buffeting was non trivial top gear car passing at mph was nearly effortless smooth smooth smooth not sure what the v sound reminds me of but it is pleasant if only the bars were not transmitting an endless buzz the jump on to caused me to be less than impressed with the brakes its a down hill reversing camber twice reversing radius decreasing radius turn a real squeeze is needed on the front binder the section of we were on was tight but too urban the st works ok in this section but it shows its weight we went by the clam shack oft featured in spencer for hire a place where you could really find spencer his house was about miles down after putting through traffic for a while we turned and went back to about half way through the onramp i yanked cindy s wrist our singal for hold on tight head check left time to find redline second gear gives a good shove third too fourth sees dod speed with a short shift into top on the way to we saw no cops and very light traffic did not cross into dod zone because the bike was too new well now it had miles on it so it was ok tried some high effort lane changes some wide sweeping turns time to wick it up i went until the buffeting was threating to pull us off the seat and stayed there when i was comfortable with the wind and the steering i looked down to find an indicated mph not bad for up touring beverly comes fast at more than twice the posted limit at the get off in a mile sign i rolled off the throttle and coasted i wanted to re adjust to the coming slowness it was a good idea there were several manhole sized patches of sand on the exit ramp back to the slow and heavy behavior cycles is about a mile from i could see even more cars stacked up outside right when i got off i managed to thread the st through the cars to the edge of the concrete pad out front heavy it took way too much effort for cindy and i to put the thing on the center stand i am sure that if i used the side stand the st would have been on its side within a minute my demo opinion heavy put it on a diet smooth comfortable hardly notices the dod speed i d buy on for about less than list just like it is too much for the bike as it is frank evan perdicaro xyvision color systems legalize guns drugs and cash today edgewater drive inhouse frank marvin x wakefield ma outhouse frank contex com x
rec.motorcycles	battery charger i just noticed that my halogen table lamp runs off volts the big thinngy that plugs into the wall says volts dc ma the question is can i trickle charge the battery on my cb with it i don t know the rating of the battery but it is a factory intalled one thanks sanjay cb dod i would give my right arm to be ambidextrous
rec.motorcycles	re question in article r ldinn rp frigate cis ohio state edu fields cis ohio state edu jonathan david fields writes this is probably a stupid question but as i am new to the motorcycle scene i don t really know anything about it what is dod this has to be a setup lookit same site as arnie skurow later chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	re need advice for riding with someone on pillion in article c t dsc well sf ca us rwert well sf ca us bob wert writes i need some advice on having someone ride pillion with me on my ninja this will be the the first time i ve taken anyone for an extended ride read farther than around the block we ll be riding some twisty fairly bumpy roads the mines road mt hamilton loop for you sf bay areans you sonuvabitch rub it in why don t you we have great weather and great roads here unlike the rest of you putzes in the u s nyah nyah nyah for the severely humor impaired this person is lbs and fairly small so i don t see weight as too much of a problem but what sort of of advice should i give her before we go i want her to hold onto me rather than the grab rail out back and i ve heard that she should look over my shoulder in the direction we re turning so she leans with me but what else are there traditional signals for slow down or go faster or i hafta go pee etc you ll likely not notice her weight too much a piece of advice for you don t be abrupt with the throttle no wheelies accelerate a wee bit more slowly than usual consciously worry about spitting her off the back it s as much your job to keep her on the pillion as it is hers and i guarantee she ll be put off by the bike ripping out from under her when you whack it open keep the lean angles pretty tame the first time out too you and her need to learn each other s body english she needs to learn what your idea is about how to take the turn and you need to learn her idea of shit don t crash now so you don t work at cross purposes while leaned over you can work up to more aggressive riding over time a very important thing tell her to put her hand against the tank when you brake this could save you some severely crushed cookies have fun chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	re fj owners tankbag suggestions wanted in article apr ncsu edu martenm chess ncsu edu mark marten writes i am looking for a new tank bag now and i wondered if you as follow fj owners could make some suggestions as to what has and has not worked for you if there is already a file on this i apologize for asking and will gladly accept any flames that are blown my way with the fj s large flat gas tank i d imagine that almost anything would work personally i m quite happy with my eclipse standard tank bag blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
rec.motorcycles	re opinions wanted help what size dirtbikes did you ride and for how long you might be able to slip into a cc bike like i keep telling people though buy an older cheaper bike and ride that for a while first you might like a interceptor as an example nathaniel zx dod ama
rec.motorcycles	re maxima chain wax tom dietrich txd esd com com wrote parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes i bought it i tried it it is truly the miracle spooge my chain is lubed my wheel is clean after km good glad to hear it i m still studying it i think life is now complete the shaft drive weenies now have no comeback when i discuss shaft effect sure i do even though i don t consider myself a weenie rip pithy i m afraid to work on my bike stuff deleted there is also damn little if any shaft effect with a concours so there p ppppppphhhhhttttttt heh heh that s pretty funny so what do you call it instead of shaft effect nathaniel zx damn little if any shaft effect dod ama p s okay so it s flame bait so what
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies on apr gmt xlyx vax cit cornell edu said mike is it possible to do a wheelie on a motorcycle with shaft drive sure in fact you can do a wheelie on a shaft drive motorcycle without even moving just don t try countersteering jerry lotto lotto lhasa harvard edu msfci hogssc bcso ama dod chemistry dept harvard univ it s my harley and i ll ride if i want to
rec.motorcycles	re re inverted fork needed in rec motorcycles matthew mark mueller mm k andrew cmu edu writes help i need the left side inverted fork for a gsx r so i can go to track practice at nelson ledges next weekend hey what do we look like a parts store has it ever occurred to you to visit your dealer and fork out the bucks for a new one what are the chances of someone happening to have a part laying around much less one in working condition sheesh some edu s besides i only have the right side inverted gsx r fork it s already been converted into a floor lamp jeff deeney dod nctr xr shamu jld hpfcla fc hp com ama cohvco cb f llamaha it s too bad that whole families have to be torn apart by something as simple as wild dogs jack handey
rec.motorcycles	first bike honda ascot hi folks i m going to be buying my first bike and i m considering an honda ascot ft with less than k miles does this sound like a reasonable choice is there anything special i need to know thanks nathan
rec.motorcycles	re so do any police ossifers read this stuff j r laferriere writes i was just wondering if there were any law officers that read this i have several questions i would like to ask pertaining to motorcycles and cops what happened to charlie lear he used to have connections didn t he hey this is cyberspace mister you wanna stateside cop ya gotta specify john little gaijin japan sun com sun microsystems atsugi japan
rec.motorcycles	gs e was re buying advice needed in article afoi te j janvopv cs cmu edu dale james cs cmu edu writes gs e it s a great bike but you d better be damn careful i got a as my third motorcycle deleta the bike is light for it s size i think it s pounds but heavy for a beginner bike heavy for a beginner bike it is pounds it isn t except maybe in some adman s dream with a full tank it s in the area of lbs depending on year etc you re you should have no problem physically managing it the seat is roughly akin to a plastic coated by very firm to very painful depending upon time in the saddle the and versions had a much better seat imo the bike suffers from the infamous suzuki regulator problem i have so far avoided forking out the roughly for the suzuki part by kludging in different honda regulator rectifier units from junkyards the charging system consistently overcharges the battery i have to refill it nearly weekly this in itself is not so bad but battery access is gained only after removing the seat the tank and the airbox my regulator lasted over miles and didn t overcharge the battery the wiring connectors in the charging path did get toasty though tending to melt their insulation i suspect they were underspecified it didn t help that they were well removed from cool air battery access on the earlier bikes doesn t require tank removal after you learn the drill it s pretty straightforward replacement parts like all suzuki parts are outrageously expensive having bought replacement parts for several brands of motorcycles i ll offer a grain of salt to be taken with dale s assessment good luck and be careful dale sentiments i can t argue with or won t dean deeds deeds vulcan edsg hac com
rec.motorcycles	re newbie in article c swox gwi mailer cc fsu edu os xi cs fsu edu writes hey there yea thats what i am a newbie i have never owned a motorcycle this makes it is spring matt ps i am not really sure what the purpose of this article was but oh well neither were we read for a few days then try again curt howland ace dod eff howland nsipo nasa gov v sabre meddle not in the afairs of wizards for it makes them soggy and hard to re light
rec.motorcycles	re need advice for riding with someone on pillion in article c t dsc well sf ca us rwert well sf ca us bob wert writes this person is lbs and fairly small so i don t see weight as too much of a problem but what sort of of advice should i give her before we go i want her to hold onto me rather than the grab rail out back and i ve heard that she should look over my shoulder in the direction we re turning so she leans with me but what else are there traditional signals for slow down or go faster or i hafta go pee etc i ve never liked my passengers to try and shift their weight with the turns at all i find the weight shift can be very sudden and unnerving it s one thing if they re just getting comfortable or decide to look over your other shoulder but i don t recommend having him her shift her weight with each turn too violent also i think someone already said this make sure your passenger wears good gear i sometimes choose to ride without a helmet or lacking other safety gear depends on how squidly i feel but i won t let passengers do it what i do to myself i can handle but i wouldn t want to hurt anyone else so i don t let them on without gloves jacket at least jeans heavy boots and a helmet that fits i really want this to be a positive experience for us both mainly so that she ll want to go with me again so any help will be appreciated go real easy it s amazing how solid a grip you have on the handle bars that your passenger does not don t make her feel like she s going to slide off the back and snappy turns for you are sickening lurches for her in general it feels much less controlled and smooth as a passenger i can t stand being on the back of my brother s bike and i ride aggressively when i ride and i know he s a good pilot still everything feels very unsteady when you re a passenger thanks bob show off by not showing off the first time out this is where i wanna sit and buy you a drink someday temple of the dog sea bass sears scs cunixb cc columbia edu dod stanley id yamaha xs f bmw r s toyota runner nyc ny
rec.motorcycles	dod confessional i can t help myself i ve tried to be rational to look the other way but everytime it happens its uncontrollable i hate pre s motorcycles at first i thought it was a phase i though i would get used to them it didn t happen i tried gazing at cb s and customs but each time i sadistically pictured them being hurled off of large precipice i also picture a swarm of german tourists cheering and taking holiday snaps but i can t figure that part out what am i to do everytime i read a sig containing some spoked wheel wonder i shudder and feel pity that the poor soul has suffered enough i imagine the owner scrapping out his or her living in a discarded maytag refridgerator box tucked in next to their cx i m hoping for some deliverance i had in the past loathed the milwaukee machine but i can actually begin to understand some of the preaching there must be hope the beav mike beavington dod v sabre mbeaving bnr ca my employer has no idea what i m talking about
rec.motorcycles	anybody tape daytona in article c l fy gh acsu buffalo edu v j kb ubvmsb cc buffalo edu mark w olszowy writes i haven t seen anything about it yet but if it s already been mentioned i m sorry for the repost anyways tnn is showing daytona on sunday april at pm to pm est don t miss it it s got a hell of a finish well i looked for it and didn t manage to find it in my listings for tnn has anybody taped it vhs and could they be persuaded to lend it to me after they watch it i would be most greatful jon wright now how the hell did pages software inc dod that come outa my mouth vfr f
rec.motorcycles	re women s jackets was ed must be a daemon child in article apr colorado edu bowmanj csn org jerry bowman writes in article bethdc juzw f netcom com bethd netcom com beth dixon writes in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu jhensley nyx cs du edu john hensley writes beth dixon bethd netcom com wrote new duc ss doesn t so i ll have to go back to carrying my lipstick in my jacket pocket life is so hard my wife is looking for a jacket and most of the men s styles she s tried don t fit too well if they fit the shoulders and arms they re too tight across the chest or something like that anyone have any suggestions i m assuming that the v pilot in addition to its handy storage facilities is a pretty decent fit is there any company that makes a reasonable line of women s motorcycling stuff more importantly does anyone in boulder or denver know of a shop that bothers carrying any there s an article in motorcycling a couple of months back specifically on women s attire for serious and not so serious riding they do mention who makes stuff specific for women s dimensions and what also works ok enough as well bates will make custom jackets and leathers for a reasonable charge jon wright now how the hell did pages software inc dod that come outa my mouth vfr f
rec.motorcycles	re wanted advice for new cylist blaisec sr hp com blaise cirelli writes so the question i have is how dangerous is riding sorta the next question i have is what bike would you recommend for a first time rider honda hawk ymmv paul thompson apple computer
rec.motorcycles	re your opinion and what it means to me in article apr rtsg mot com svoboda rtsg mot com david svoboda writes in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes well as a few of you so aptly put it get off the road jerk we don t wanna hear your whining fine fuck off too if you noticed it was in more than two years ago and yes i ve learned and it s cost me and yes i ve known people friends and relatives who ve been involved in drunk related accidents not them they were hit and my cousin is still recovering no i can t take back what happened yes it was stupid but by reminding me about it all the time you re neither helping me or yourself so stuff your opinion hey man you brought it up i agree completely driving drunk is really stupid and i understand and appreciate that you feel bad about it but dwi is endemic in our society it is a real problem and we as motorcyclists can be in the worst of vulnerable positions around a drunk driver alert readers might remember that last year i witnessed a dwi accident right bloody in front of me and was unable to save the life of one of the participants as i reported here also drunk driving by motorcyclists is a prime cause of their injury and death which raises the insurance rates forces stupidly restrictive laws and turns the public against those of us who ride responsibly in my view drunk driving should carry a mandatory prison sentence it is one of the traffic offenses which is not a public funds issue but a genuine safety issue so if you bring up the subject on rec moto admitting having been caught dwi and looking for sympathy over the consequences don t expect people to respond with warm wishes dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com i m getting tired of you and the beav should lighten up esp the beav i agree that dui dwi is serious we should have reasonable laws strict enforcement and tough sentences but andrew did not post looking for sympathy over the consequences he posted asking for advice because he had an extremely high quote his post was obviously valid because he later found insurance for less he noted why he was in his predicament but did not defend in any way drunk driving and has renounced drunk driving there are too many repeat offenders to worry about and other bdc why try to make this person who is no longer part of the problem an outcast he has paid his debt to society step off the high horse we have all been irresponsible in the past with that said i m guilty of the same type of hostility towards rapists i think it comes because i feel the punishment is not severe enough the same may be true of dwi dui if that is the case then it is our stinkin gubment we need to change if we had a reasonable law about dwi dui with a stiff penalty then fewer people would do it at any rate andrew as paid his debt as defined by the law if you think that debt is actually greater than the law mandates tell your representatives jack waters ii dod i don t fear the thief in the night its the one that comes in the afternoon when i m still asleep that i worry about
rec.motorcycles	re extraordinary footpeg engineering in article qt d fj vtserf cc vt edu ranck joesbar cc vt edu wm l ranck writes exb csdvax csd unsw edu au wrote let me guess you were making a left turn correct the edge of the stud contacting the road caused it to turn and unthread itself if you had been making a right turn it would have tightened the stud bzzzt thanks for playing if he d been making a right turn the sucker would have been a couple feet off the ground michael michael nelson cbr rr internet nelson seahunt imat com dod
rec.motorcycles	re fj owners tankbag suggestions wanted martenm chess ncsu edu mark marten writes i am looking for a new tank bag now and i wondered if you as follow fj owners could make some suggestions as to what has and has not worked for you if there is already a file on this i apologize for asking and will gladly accept any flames that are blown my way i ve got a belstaff tankbag on my fj and it ain t too good it s difficult to fix it securely cos of the the tank fairing sidepanel layout and also with the bars on full lock the bag touches the handlebar switches so you get the horn on full left lock and the starter motor on full right if i was buying another i think i d go for a magnetic one
rec.motorcycles	re help which bikes are short i m not sure on the older bikes but the yamaha virago has spec d seat height of in and the honda shadow in
rec.motorcycles	need maintenance tips after reading the service manual for my bike suzuki gs e i have a couple of questions i hope you can answer when checking the oil level with the dip stick built into the oil fill cap does one check it with the cap screwed in or not i am more used to the dip stick for a cage where the stick is extracted fully wiped clean and reinserted fully then withdrawn and read the dip stick on my bike is part of the oil filler cap and has about inch of threads on it do i remove the cap wipe the stick clean and reinsert it with without screwing it down before reading the service manual calls for the application of suzuki bond no b on the head cover i guess this is some sort of liquid gasket material do you know of a generic cheaper substitute my headlight is a halogen w bulb is there an easy brighter replacement bulb available where should i look for one as always i very much appreciate your help the weather in philadelphia has finally turned warm this weekend i saw lotsa bikes and the riders all waved a nice change of tone from what philadelphia can be like chris christopher g karras internet cgkarras world std com
rec.motorcycles	wanted advice for new cylist ditto in article c r ey mq srgenprp sr hp com blaisec sr hp com blaise cirelli writes i m thinking about becoming a bike owner this year w o any bike experience thus far i figure that getting a decent used bike for under k the thing would pay for itself while i m at grad school car permits are where i m going and who want s to ride a bus i m looking for advice on a first bike best models years i m not looking for an old loud roaring thing that sounds like a monster the quit whirring of newer engines is more to my liking apprec any advice thanks bs
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith writes mjs well there are just as many courses here and elsewhere that do not mjs teach the technique yet seem to be rather successful sure you don t miss what you never had those poor sods don t know what they re missing i guess ignorance is bliss eh mike mr bill bill leavitt cbx white lightning gs g suzibago leavitt cs umd edu cj little honda lone star sick leave dod ama icoa nia impala convertible the incredible hulk others hmmm i thought bore and stroke was the technique michael bain
rec.motorcycles	re story lynn pacesetter com lynn e hall writes allowed yes there is a god no open containers on the street was the signs in the bars yeah right the or so cops on hand for the couple of thousand of bikers in a block main street were not citing anyone the street was filled with empty cans at least feet deep in the gutter the crowd was raisin hell tittie shows everywhere can you say party and still we wonder why they stereotype us erc
rec.motorcycles	re how to act in front of traffic jerks being a mere female i have often found i can t really take the big offensive line with asshole car drivers so i found a more subtle and nastly ooops i mean nasty way to get back at them if somebody cuts you up just wait till they have pulled out past you and then gently lean over and bend their aerial every time i have done that it has eventually snapped off near the base which tends to go undetected for a while and is a bummer to replace gillian
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith writes mjs no no no no all i am saying is that you don t even need to tell people mjs the technique of countersteering cos they will do it intuitively the first mjs time they try to go round a corner karr cs cornell edu david karr writes karr are you sure remember that you can get around corners without karr countersteering in fact my experienced rider course instructors karr claimed that they could get on behind a new rider and make the bike karr turn to whichever side they wanted just by shifting their weight karr around even when the operator was trying to turn in the opposite karr direction i admit i ve never actually seen this i ve experienced this back when i was young er and more foolish my first bike used to track extremely true going down the highway i would set the throttle tension screw up enough to hold the gas steady slide back on the seat and lean against the backrest riding without any hands if i needed to turn i d shift my weight into the turn and lo and behold the bike would turn sans touching the bars granted it wouldn t turn very fast but it proves that you can turn a bike without countersteering at least not in terms of the input to the bar normally associated with countersteering as i ve said i know many people who think all you do is lean and any input they re giving to the bar is totally unconscious whereas that may be sufficient to get you down the road under normal circumstances possibly for years at a stretch i can t think of anybody who d argue that this is preferable to properly knowing how to manipulate the bar in a turn regardless of what you want to call it except maybe for mr sixsmith mr bill bill leavitt cbx white lightning gs g suzibago leavitt cs umd edu cj little honda lone star sick leave dod ama icoa nia impala convertible the incredible hulk others hmmm i thought bore and stroke was the technique michael bain
rec.motorcycles	insurance discount hola amigos quiero i need an answer to a pressing question i now own two bikes and would love to keep them both one is a capable and smooth street bike low and lightweight with wide power and great brakes the other is a beemer g s kind of rough for the city but great on the long road and backroad a good start at a stable but i don t think it s going to work unfortunately insurance is going to pluck me by the short hairs unless some insurance agent offers a multi vehicle discount they do this all the time for cars assuming that you re only capable of driving one of the things at a time i don t think i ll ever manage to straddle both bikes and ride them tandem down the street turn left accelerate the zephyr turn right accelerate the beemer does anybody know of an agency that makes use of this simple fact to discount your rates state farm doesn t by the way i m moving to the bay area so i ll be insuring the bikes there and registering them to ease me of the shock can somebody guesstimate the cost of insuring a zr and a r gs here in tucson they only cost me full and liability only for the two per annum muchas gracias enrique
rec.motorcycles	re need advice for riding with someone on pillion in article c t dsc well sf ca us rwert well sf ca us bob wert writes i need some advice on having someone ride pillion with me on my ninja this will be the the first time i ve taken anyone for an extended ride read farther than around the block we ll be riding some twisty fairly bumpy roads the mines road mt hamilton loop for you sf bay areans communication work out your own system or just slow down and holler back every once in a while at reasonable speeds even on my under muffled magna we can hear each other it s only above say mph that you can t really communicate balance new passengers are a real pain because you never know how they re going to react to steering some people catch on immediately and lean with me others are completely skittish about the leaning thing and keep their bodies perpendicular to the horizon this is a pain while turning but manageable the worst are the passengers who stay perpendicular to the horizon then remember in the middle of a turn and whip around until they re in the correct position this always screws up the line i ve picked out here s my personal checklist of things to tell passengers attire helmet long pants boots heavy shoes jacket keep feet on pegs at all times unless i say otherwise do not get on off unless i say you can i ve had people try to dismount in traffic just as i m pulling in to a parking space muffler gets hot nuff said we get good traction we re not going to fall over many first time riders are surprised by how tightly you can turn turn dynamics sit so that you feel like you re sitting upright and we re going straight trust your butt not your eyes if you re confused close your eyes for a couple of turns to get the feel of it or just hug me tight please no sudden moves shift your weight as desired but be gradual so i can compensate your faceplate is yours to open close as desired trust is essential trust the driver me to do the right thing i ve driven many miles on this thing and know how to operate it enjoy the ride this is important to stress for example one of my first time passwngers seemed to watch the speedo like a hawk i drove her to the beach down and whever we topped mph she d holler slow down i m scared i humored her for a while then simply covered the speedometer with the spare piece of duct tape i keep stuck to the top of the cluster problem solved she watched the scenery instead of the instruments and had a much better time based on her experience driving a lincoln continental she was unwilling to trust my ability to choose a safe speed for the bike usually i ll point out the controls engine transmission brakes tires etc and discuss motorcycle physics a bit too for first timers helps calm their nerves and gives the bike a chance to warm up watch out for gravel on the mt hamilton road there were lots of little mudslides after the last big rain by now many of the blind corners will be nicely covered with a carpet of little round nearly invisible stones it doesn t help build trust when you slide out on a blind corner on the first trip good luck have fun don t drink soap dilute dilute ok
rec.motorcycles	re it ain t for me in article speedy engr latech edu speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer writes i am confused like that s a surprise someone asked me for a copy of the faq via e mail as i am not the kotfaq i was wondering what the proper responce is our panel of judges has deliberated the question and the answer is send the requester one copy and then gang faq yourself blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
rec.motorcycles	re your opinion and what it means to me in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes well as a few of you so aptly put it get off the road jerk we don t wanna hear your whining fine fuck off too well it still looks like you ve got an attitude problem mr muttonhead you should take the comments with more sensitivity i still despise most people who belittle drinking and driving since my first girlfriend was killed by such an asshole back in learn to take the verbal abuse if you can t take the flames and you can t use your brains stay out of the newsgroup the beav mike beavington bellnorthernresearch ottawa ont canada dod seca seca rz seca suzuki seca turbo v sabre gts can t afford the mbeaving bnr ca this company has no idea what i am talking about
rec.motorcycles	first bike anyone i am a serious motorcycle enthusiast without a motorcycle and to put it bluntly it sucks i really would like some advice on what would be a good starter bike for me i do know one thing however i need to make my first bike a good one because buying a second any time soon is out of the question i am specifically interested in racing bikes cbr f gsx r i know that this may sound kind of crazy considering that i ve never had a bike before but i am responsible a fast learner and in love please give me any advice that you think would help me in my search including places to look or even specific bikes that you want to sell me thanks jamie belliveau jbc andrew cmu edu
rec.motorcycles	first bike anyone i am a serious motorcycle enthusiast without a motorcycle and to put it bluntly it sucks i really would like some advice on what would be a good starter bike for me i do know one thing however i need to make my first bike a good one because buying a second any time soon is out of the question i am specifically interested in racing bikes cbr f gsx r i know that this may sound kind of crazy considering that i ve never had a bike before but i am responsible a fast learner and in love please give me any advice that you think would help me in my search including places to look or even specific bikes that you want to sell me thanks jamie belliveau jbc andrew cmu edu
rec.motorcycles	re comments on a honda interceptor jearls tekig pen tek com jeffrey david earls writes in article apr skyfox howp skyfox writes hi i am considering the purchase of a honda cc interceptor for cdn about us i don t know the mileage on this bike but from the picture in the rv trader magazine it looks to be in good shape can anybody enlighten me as to whether this is a good purchase oog i hate to jump in on this type of thread but pass on the vf it s big top heavy and carries lots of expensive parts what he said most of my friends refer to them as ground magnets one jeff earls jearls tekig pen tek com dod kottg kotspt wmtc ama fj millennium falcon squid factor klr thumpy hit the button chewie han solo there ain t nothin like a mph sweeper in the idaho rockies me dean woodward you want to step into my world dean fringe rain com it s a socio psychotic state of bliss virago guns n roses my world dod
rec.motorcycles	re dogs in article apr acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca charles parr writes sheesh even a trained attack dog is no match for a human we have all the advantages i agree with this after all when you grab under his chin and are careful to keep your hands away from his twisting head what is he going to do tailwag you to death i even had one occasion where i was unexpectedly jumped by a lb german shepherd and grabbed his upper jaw in one hand and his lower jaw in the other now i m holding his mouth open no way is he strong enough to clamp down and he can do nothing however all this macho shit aside the fact is that when you are riding a bike and a dog is arrowing to intercept it may be unwise for you to stop and try to deal with the dog for the simple fact that it might be through your leathers and working on your jeans before you can dismount and deal with it properly by all means if you do kick the dog or otherwise get its attention stop and stay there if you kick the dog and ride away that is a victory for the dog it drove you out of its territory it is not even a qualified victory it is a victory if you kick it and stop and sit there of dogs will say oh shit this guy s serious and back off now you have established your dominance over the dog and it probably will not bother you again llamas however are a different story if you stop near a llama it will just hop on and insist on a ride and that s if you re lucky if it doesn t like you it ll barf you off the bike and steal it curtis jackson cjackson mv us adobe com hawk gt maxim dod kotb black lab mix studley doright collie golden george there is no justification for taking away individuals freedom in the guise of public safety thomas jefferson
rec.motorcycles	re question about helmets on the other side of the fence i owned a bieffe off road helmet took what i would consider a minor fall and had visible damage to the shell yes the helmet did its job but the damage impact ratio was scary i own bell moto now have taken impacts on order of twice the bieffe impact we do this frequently in mx and don t even have a scratch on it after two seasons my recommendation is to buy high quality gear ymmv mark
rec.motorcycles	re women s jackets was ed must be a daemon child in article bethdc juzw f netcom com bethd netcom com beth dixon writes in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu jhensley nyx cs du edu john hensley writes beth dixon bethd netcom com wrote new duc ss doesn t so i ll have to go back to carrying my lipstick in my jacket pocket life is so hard my wife is looking for a jacket and most of the men s styles she s tried don t fit too well if they fit the shoulders and arms they re too tight across the chest or something like that anyone have any suggestions i m assuming that the v pilot in addition to its handy storage facilities is a pretty decent fit is there any company that makes a reasonable line of women s motorcycling stuff more importantly does anyone in boulder or denver know of a shop that bothers carrying any i was very lucky i found a jacket i liked that actually fits hg makes the v pilot jackets mine is a very similar style made by just leather in san jose i bought one of the last two they ever made finding decent womens motorcycling gear is not easy there is a lot of stuff out there that s fringed everywhere made of fashion leather made to fit men etc i don t know of a shop in your area there are some women rider friendly places in the san francisco san jose area but i don t recommend buying clothing mail order too hard to tell if it ll fit bates custom makes leathers you might want to call them they re in l a and get a cost estimate for the type of jacket your wife is interested in large manufacturers like bmw and h g sell women s lines of clothing of decent quality but fit is iffy a while ago noemi and lisa sieverts were talking about starting a business doing just this sort of thing don t know what they finally decided beth seems to me that johns h d in ft collins used to carry some honest to god womens garb beth the one true beth dixon bethd netcom com yamaha sr excitable girl dod yamaha sr spike the garage rat fssnoc ducati ss ama ducati monza restoration project kqspt i can keep a handle on anything just this side of deranged zz top
rec.motorcycles	re v max handling request in article apr newbridge com bradw newbridge com brad warkentin writes zero to very fast very quickly lastest rumor is hp at the rear wheel handles like a dream in a straight line to and then gets a tad upset according to a review in cycle world cornering er well you can t have everything sure you can have everything if by everything you mean fast straight line performance and handling present day liter sport bikes have more horsepower and have faster and mile times than the v max plus they corner just a bit better seriously handling is probably as good as the big standards of the early s but not compareable to whats state of the art these days very true randy davis email randy megatek com zx pilot uunet ucsd megatek randy dod but this one goes to eleven nigel tufnel spinal tap
rec.motorcycles	re solar battery chargers any good in article apr csd newshost stanford edu robert xenon stanf ord edu robert kennedy writes i ve seen solar battery boosters and they seem to come without any guarantee on the other hand i ve heard that some people use them with success although i have yet to communicate directly with such a person have you tried one what was your experience how did you use it occasional charging long term leave it for weeks etc robert kennedy i have a cheap solar charger that i keep in my car i purchased it via some mail order catalog when the year old battery in my oldsmobile would run down during summer when i was riding my bike more than driving my car knowing i d be selling the car in a year or so i purchased the charger believe it or not the thing worked the battery held a charge and energetically started the car many times after or weeks of just sitting eventually i had to purchase a new battery anyway because the winter sun wasn t strong enough due to its low angle i think i paid or for the charger there are more powerful more expensive ones but i purchased the cheapest one i could find i ve never used it on the bike because i have an e z charger on it and keep it plugged in all the time the bike is garaged arnie skurow
rec.motorcycles	re what is it with cats and dogs in article qk mqinn e emory mathcs emory edu gnome pd org writes james bessette jimbes cbnewsj cb att com wrote in article hplsla hp com kens hplsla hp com ken snyder writes ask the breeder why they also chase bmws also cam chain in that case why do they chase st s goldwings tony tony kidson pgp key by request voice morgan towers the cat has had to move now e mail in order morgan road as i ve had to take the top tony morgan demon co uk bromley off of the machine tny cix compulink co uk england br qe honda st dod compuserve com
rec.motorcycles	re ggrrrrrr cages double parking motorc in qjmf d i sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher writes in article castle ed ac uk wbg festival ed ac uk w geake writes an apartment complex where i used to live tried this only they put the thing over the driver s window so they couldn t miss it a friend damned near wrecked on the way home one night her vision blocked by the sticker i suggested to the manager the enormous liability they be careful about putting stickers on cages windows hmmm the lddc security guards over here in docklands only place parking stickers on the drivers side windows but on reflection that could still cause an accident suppose it s because people aren t as litigious over here as in the states stephen stephen dunne mag dod sdun isma demon co uk international securities market association i speak for me thats all voice fax pgp public key available we are not affiliated to any other demon co uk site
rec.motorcycles	re boom dog attack in article csundh ursa csundh ursa calvin edu charles sundheim writes tale of bike eating devil dog deleted moral i m not really sure but more and more i believe that bikers ought to be allowed to carry handguns come to louisiana where it is legal to carry concealed weapons on a bike dod technician dr speed not student stolen taglines god is real unless declared integer i came i saw i deleted all your files black holes are where god is dividing by zero the world will end in minutes please log out earth is full please delete anyone you can
rec.motorcycles	re neck reining was countersteering faq please post in article qmetg g n sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher writes basically there are two ways to steer a horse plow rein and neck rein plow reining steers him by keeping the reins separate and you pull in the direction you wish to go neck reining steers a horse by holding the reins together in one hand and pulling against the horse s neck in the direction you wish to go when training a plow steering horse to neck rein one technique is to cross the reins under his necks thus when neck reining to the left the right rein pulls against the right side of the neck but the left side of the bit which the horse is used to from his plow reining days i learned when riding bareback as a kid to palm reign by just pushing on the right side of the horse s neck with your right palm to turn left a lot like countersteering so that came pretty easy to me in the transition to motorcycles it took a while however to break my habit of kicking the rear fender with my heels to go faster steve steve l moseley moseley u washington edu microbiology sc phone university of washington fax seattle wa
rec.motorcycles	re changing sprocket ratios honda cb in article c k bm btb ms uky edu cbrooks ms uky edu clayton brooks writes do any honda gurus know if i can replace the the front sprocket on my honda cb k with a slightly larger one i see this as being preferable to reducing the size of the rear one that s a twin cam right there s a steel guard right next to the sprocket to keep a broken chain from punching a hole in the engine cases and it s needed there s probably not enough room to fit a bigger sprocket i d be inclined to take two teeth off the rear for a ratio change rather than adding one to the front for about if you raise the overall gear ratio too much you ll impair the bike s rideability because the gears will be far enough apart that there will be only one gear that provides adequate response at any given speed honda s don t have the widest of power bands chuck karish karish mindcraft com x karish pangea stanford edu
rec.motorcycles	re bike sold over net miles away in a previous article essbaum rchland vnet ibm com alexander essbaum says in article hplsla hp com kens hplsla hp com ken snyder writes any other bikes sold long distances out there i d love to hear about it i bought my vfr from a guy in san jose via the net that s miles according to my odometer mark andy living in pittsburgh bought his rz from a dude in massachusetts or was it connecticut i sold a bike via the net to a young lady who lived in salt lake city i live near lost angeles it turned out we had mutual aquaintances at ucla as well al bowers dod alfa ducati hobie kottke blad iaido nasa well goodness sakes don t you know that girls can t play guitar mary chapin carpenter
rec.motorcycles	re protective gear i second the boots oil spots from cars are particularly slippery when parking the bikes and good boots help here as well squid
rec.motorcycles	re changing sprocket ratios honda cb in article ax b w w cellar org craig cellar org saint craig wrote it can be done contact chaparell cycle supply hey they even had sprockets for my vf r which is hard to find accesssories for i second that they even had sprockets for my r rs very hard to find john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	re bmw moa members read this sender reply to harmons gyro wv tek com harmon sommer distribution organization usr ens etc organization keywords as a new bmw owner i was thinking about signing up for the moa but right now it is beginning to look suspiciously like throwing money down a rathole let my current membership lapse when it s up for renewal in my case that s not for another years so i d appreciate any hints on what will keep the organization in business that long and preferably longer of course and worth being part of become an activist campaign for an mc insurance program for universal driver rider training before licensing pick a topic dear to your heart and get the organization to act on it barnacles don t move ships
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post sender reply to harmons gyro wv tek com harmon sommer distribution organization usr ens etc organization keywords hey ed how do you explain the fact that you pull on a horse s reins left to go left or am i confusing two threads here unless they have been taught to neck rein then the left rein is brought to bear on the left side of horse s neck to go right equestrian counter steering
rec.motorcycles	for sale i am selling my sportster to make room for a new flhtcu this scoot is in excellent condition and has never been wrecked or abused always garaged sportster standard blue factory cc conversion kit less than miles branch ported and polished big valve heads screamin eagle carb screamin eagle cam adjustable pushrods harley performance mufflers tachometer new metzeler tires front and rear progressive front fork springs harley king and queen seat and sissy bar everything chromed o ring chain fork brace oil cooler and thermostat new die hard battery bike cover price phone hm wk melbourne florida
rec.motorcycles	insurance and lotsa points well it looks like i m f cked for insurance i had a dwi in and for the beemer as a rec vehicle it ll cost me almost bucks to insure year now what do i do i could probably just sell the bike and return my dod number andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering faq please post in article qjn i d i sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes in article rd hydro on ca jlevine rd hydro on ca jody levine writes in article qc c r sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes single track snow vehicles with front skis and snow skis attached to skiers legs deform the surface of the snow creating their own bank ice skates alter the phase of the ice and also carve out their own tracks so what so they have bugger all to do with motorcycles hence any apparent similarity in handling characteristics may or may not be analagous in its underlying physics to that behind motorcycle handling characteristics ok as one last attempt i ll take a different tack we all seem to be in agreement that there are two explanations for why one can use the handlebars to lean a moving motorcycle the question is is one of the effect dominant and which one is it the idea would be to design an experiment which would seaprate the two characteristics and see which effect produces a similar result to the one with which those of us who have bikes are familiar let s look at the one that so far has sparked no controversy on its own gyroscopic precession to examine this alone we would have to get rid of the contact patch effect by not allowing the contact patches to transmit any force the wheels and steering mechanism would have to remain and be attached to a vehicle with about the same weight as a bike through suspension so that the wheels transmit forces to the bike the same way similar to a bikes an experiment would be to ride a bike along a dry road to get moving and to get the wheels spinning then change surfaces to something that won t transmit forces through the contact patches and try a steering manoeuvre to see if the bike leans it probably would since some of us know how easy it is to fall down on ice but we wouldn t get a good idea of how well or what it feels like because without the contact patches we can t turn maybe there s a better way besides even ice doesn t get rid of the contact patch forces altogether so we d have to find a really frictionless surface you d have to try it again with the wheels locked to really know if it was the rotation that did it looking at the contact patch effect only however is fairly simple now we have to find a vehicle that gets the about the same magnitude and direction of cantact patch forces as a motorcycle and transmits them about the same way to the vehicle but without rotating wheels how it gets the contact patch forces is irrelevant we re just looking for something that has contact patches that can go straight and not sideways and skis or skates would do fine i don t know of any snow ski or skate bikes but up here we have the suzuki wetbike that is arranged like a motorcycle but has fat water skis where there should be wheels i think the propellor is in front of the rear ski or something like that but we could try it at a coast to get rid of most of its effect now i admit that this is second hand info although i d love to try one of these but the review in the local cycle rag and a guy in a bike shop that sells them both say that this machine handles very much like a motorcycle in that you countersteer it to turn so we have contact patches that transmit similar forces to a bike s a similar suspension arrangement and no gyroscopes but we do have countersteering conclusion you don t need gyroscopes to countersteer vehicles that have motorcycle like contact patch arrangements we still don t know what real effect the gyroscopes have when they re there but from my observations of how handlebar angle force etc relate to steering in general i m willing to bet that they re not the dominant factor in countersteering if you don t like this conclusion then don t accept it but my motorcycle s behaviour is consistent with it if someone can prove otherwise go ahead i ve bike like jody levine dod kv got a you can if you pf jody p levine hydro on ca ride it toronto ontario canada
rec.motorcycles	re observation re helmets in article apr research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna writes do i have to be the one to say it don t be so stupid as to leave your helmet on the seat where it can fall down and go boom true enough i put it on the ground if it s free of spooge or directly on my head otherwise that kind of fall is what the helmet is designed to protect against not exactly the helmet has a lot less energy if your head isn t in it and there s no lump inside to compress the liner against the shell is a drop off the seat enough to crack the shell i doubt it but you can always send it to be inspected i ve bike like jody levine dod kv got a you can if you pf jody p levine hydro on ca ride it toronto ontario canada
rec.motorcycles	re how to act in front of traffic jerks in article nielsmm nanna imv aau dk nielsmm imv aau dk niels mikkel michelsen writes the other day it was raining cats and dogs therefor i was going only to the speed limit on nothing more on my bike this guy in his bmw was driving meters behind me for meters and at the next red light i calmly put the bike on its leg walked back to this car he rolled down the window and i told him he was a total idiot and the reason why did i do the right thing well i used to get mad and either try to communicate my anger to jerks or to uhm educate them in how to improve their manners in traffic now i just try to get them off my tail in heavy traffic i slow down a bit mostly so i have more buffer zone in front to balance the minimal buffer behind but i also often find that the jerk behind will notice traffic moving faster in other lanes switch into one of them and pass me which is fine because then i can keep a better eye on the jerk from behind while looking ahead rather than from in front while splitting my attention between ahead and the mirrors in traffic so heavy that there is no way for the jerk to pass i might pull over as if to look for a street number or name still ignoring the jerk just to get the jerk off my tail if this all sounds well wimpy or un denizenly or pessimistic or perhaps for any psych types passive aggressive consider that i prefer to get my adrenaline jollies from riding rather than from yelling at jerks a ride can improve my whole day while yelling at a jerk is likely for me to ruin my ride or my day with my own anger in the worst case yelling at the jerk could ruin my life since even a tiny jerk in a cage behind me is better armed with the cage than i am on a bike on the other hand you might try subtly arranging to be the last vehicle to legally cross one or more intersections leaving the jerk waiting for cross traffic and thus off your tail or crossing illegally hopefully in front of the waiting police like almost everything here your choices and mileage will vary denis mckeon galway chtm eece unm edu
rec.motorcycles	re bmw moa members read this in article shaman wv tek com harmons wv tek com harmon sommer writes as a new bmw owner i was thinking about signing up for the moa but let my current membership lapse when it s up for renewal hints on what will keep the organization in business that long become an activist campaign for an mc insurance program for universal driver rider training before licensing pick a topic dear to your heart and get the organization to act on it barnacles don t move ships you re obviously not referring to any of the three above quoted individuals because barnacles don t each send to the crew of the ship to keep it moving get the organization to act on it is easy to say but says little about what one really can and should do what the organization actually will do is largely determined by the president and directors as far as i can see that s what makes it so important to vote in an election of officers it does strike me that the bmwmoa is a lot less politically active in the state and national arenas not infighting than other m c organizations should we change this or just join the other groups that already are in politics incidentally the political hazards to motorcycle riders in the us at the moment don t compare to the problems of some other groups like gun owners just try to take up target pistol shooting in the northeast or california and i bet you ll wish you only had to worry about wearing a helmet why does every thread on rec moto eventually come around to guns david karr karr cs cornell edu
rec.motorcycles	looking for women s motorcycle helmet i m looking to buy a used motorcycle helmet i m interested in a full face shield but not necessarily a helmet with the piece around the chin please email me directly janice kendall kendall adobe com decwrl sun adobe kendall onward thru the fog tm oat willie s tm
rec.motorcycles	re v max handling request in article apr ntuvax ntu ac sg ba ntuvax ntu ac sg writes hello there ican anyone who has handson experience on riding the yamaha v max pls kindly comment on its handling from cycle world magazine who usually never says anything bad about any motorcycle the max certainly has motor but there are some things it is short of it is short of chassis it loves straight lines aimed in one it is nicely stable but it is not overfond of corners forced into one it protests shaking its head chattering its front tire grinding its footpegs and generally making known its preference for straight pavement bumps it doesn t like them either its fork isn t too bad though it is soft enough that it can be bottomed under hard braking the shocks though which work on that short travel shaft drive swingarm are firm to the point of harshness dave tharp dod you can t wear out davet interceptor cds tek com mra an indian scout k s indian chief ahrma or its brother the chief r s tr b ama they re built like rocks r velorex nsu max to take the knocks bmw r compulsive it s the harleys that my employer has no idea joiner give you grief
rec.motorcycles	ok so i was a little hasty apparently that last post was a little hasy since i called around to more places and got quotes for less than and liability only of course plus one palced will give me c c for my car liab on the bike for only total which ain t bad at all so i won t go with the first place i called that s fer sure andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	xs timing could some kind soul tell me the advance timing revs for a xs special bought in canada thanks
rec.motorcycles	for sale i am selling my sportster to make room for a new flhtcu this scoot is in excellent condition and has never been wrecked or abused always garaged sportster standard blue factory cc conversion kit less than miles branch ported and polished big valve heads screamin eagle carb screamin eagle cam adjustable pushrods harley performance mufflers tachometer new metzeler tires front and rear progressive front fork springs harley king and queen seat and sissy bar everything chromed o ring chain fork brace oil cooler and thermostat new die hard battery bike cover price phone hm wk melbourne florida
rec.motorcycles	re stolen aarghhhh in article jpolito apr sysgem encore com jpolito sysgem encore com jonathan polito writes in article apr microunity com ericm microunity com eric murray writes watch out often when some scumbag steals the cover that means that they were or are looking to steal the bike in my case i had a faded cover stolen off a bmw r rs that was stashed in an apartment carport and not visible from the street they evidently decided the beemer wasn t worth stealing but did try the next night to steal a honda hurricane parked in the next apartment building a neighbor heard them wheeling it out and called the cops i know this is just setting myself up but this is actually one of the things that is really good about bmw bikes from all accounts i ve heard practically no one steals bmws probably it is similar for moto guzzis and other relative exotics since there isn t a large demand for parts and the bike would be much easier to track down it seems that the most stolen bikes are harleys and cc jap sport bikes well i d say you re mostly right but for different reasons btw as of a couple years ago the most stolen bikes in orange county and sf were gsx s and ninjas probably the biggest reason bmws aren t ripped off is that most people who buy bmws will only deal with the actual bmw dealer or mail order types most of these can have their inventory checked fairly easily by law enforcement types and their mark up is usually sufficient to keep them honest about acquiring parts for harleys and rice rockets you ve got different situations there is a huge aftermarket in harley parts so a bike can be parted out fairly easily ditto the non sport japanese bikes but the prices on the parts for these are not as high comparatively for the rockets anytime a bike goes down the plastic is usually cracked and is expensive to replace it s fairly easy then for a disreputable shop to take a fairing from a stolen bike slap it on a bike in for repair repaint it and make a tidy profit the other parts more traceable can be used or discarded if they are too traceable mike disclaimer these opiini h h damn h h q w q wq wq d x exit x q c quitbye ctrlaltdel q q logout save quit quit zz zzzzzz vi man vi l c e x i t help helpquit d d man help c c e help exit quit q ctrlshftdel hey what does stop l a d
rec.motorcycles	passenger helmet sizing in article qk oi d i sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes in article mavenry altcit eskimo com maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer writes the question for the day is re passenger helmets if you don t know for certain who s gonna ride with you like say you meet them at a church meeting yeah that s the ticket what are some guidelines should i just pick up another shoei in my size to have a backup helmet xl or should i maybe get an inexpensive one of a smaller size to accomodate my likely passenger if your primary concern is protecting the passenger in the event of a crash have him or her fitted for a helmet that is their size if your primary concern is complying with stupid helmet laws carry a real big spare you can put a big or small head in a big helmet but not in a small one while shopping for a passenger helmet i noticed that in many cases the external dimensions of the helmets were the same from s through xl the difference was the amount of inside padding my solution was to buy a large helmet and construct a removable liner from a sheet of closed cell foam and some satin glued to the inside surface the result is a reasonably snug fit on my smallest headed pillion with the liner in and a comfortable fit on my largest headed pillion with the liner out everyone else gets linered or not by best fit michael robinson uucp ucbvax cogsci robinson internet robinson cogsci berkeley edu
rec.motorcycles	re bmw moa members read this bill ranck writes as a new bmw owner i was thinking about signing up for the moa but right now it is beginning to look suspiciously like throwing money down a rathole when you guys sort this out let me know bill ranck bill ranck vt edu computing center virginia polytchnic inst state univ blacksburg va ditto for me tim seiss k s kx
rec.motorcycles	re used bikes east vs west coasts hpcc rec motorcycles groverc gold gvg tek com grover cleveland am apr shop for your bike in sacramento the bay area prices are always much higher than elsewhere in the state gc affirmative check sacramento bee fresno bee modesto stockton bakersfield and other newspapers for prices of motos in the classifieds a large main public library ought to have a number of out of town papers graeme harrison hewlett packard co communications components division w trimble rd san jose ca gharriso hpcc corp hp com dod
rec.motorcycles	paint jobs in the uk can anyone recommend a good place for reasonably priced bike paint jobs preferably but not essentially in the london area thanks lisa rowlands alex technologies ltd cp house uxbridge road tel ealing fax london email lisa alex com w lt
rec.motorcycles	re happy easter nick pettefar npet bnr ca wrote kevinh on the tue apr gmt wibbled jonathan quist bemoaned yes it s a minor blasphemy that u s companies would on the likes of a m jaguar or sob lotus it s outright sacrilege for rr to have non british ownership it s a fundamental thing lotus looks set for a management buyout gm weren t happy that the elan was late and too pricey if they can write off the elan development costs the may be able to sell them for a sensible price i think there is a legal clause in the rr name regardless of who owns it it must be a british company owner i e ba can sell the company but not the name kevinh hasler ascom ch i don t believe that ba have anything to do with rr it s a seperate company from the rr aero engine company it s vickers who own rolls royce cars and yes kevin it is posts morgan use a sliding pillar front suspension ob bike at long bleeding last when will that pettefar bloke get a mail address so we can bung him on the ogri list dave david edmondson davide dcs qmw ac uk queen mary westfield college dod guzzi le mans this means the end of the horse drawn zeppelin
rec.motorcycles	re observation re helmets maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer wrote grf dropped my shoei rf off the seat of my bike while trying to rock it onto it s centerstand chipped the heck out of the paint on it gravity it ll never let you down er up er lesson put your helmet on the ground or your head if you put it on the ground it isn t gonna fall down to the ground if you put it on your head well tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult to redirect awe inspiring entertaining and a source of mind boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it gene spafford
rec.motorcycles	re live free but quietly or die mcguire cs utexas edu tommy marcus mcguire wrote egreen east sun com writes tjohnson tazmanian prime com tod johnson x writes sure there are horns but my hand is already on the throttle should we get into how many feet a bike going mph goes in seconds or how long it would take me to push my horn button the answer is feet try something like feet edgetacalculator right rom numbers easy to remember mph ft sec tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult to redirect awe inspiring entertaining and a source of mind boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it gene spafford
rec.motorcycles	re more moa stuff like the ra in article c p b a x world std com artc world std com art campbell wrote ok so we ve got a hotly contested bmwoa election and some inept leadership my question is the history of the bmw organization that lead to the formation of the bmwra was there something going on in the oa years ago that precipitated the formation of two competing owner s groups yep both were started nominally simultaneously splitsville from the start ie if my sources are correct one guy was involved in the start of both groups true tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult to redirect awe inspiring entertaining and a source of mind boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it gene spafford
rec.motorcycles	re bikes and contacts the best thing to do is to get a full face even if it is a cheap brain bucket i didn t think a full face was important until i took a gnarly spill and ended up sliding feet on my face plus with the visor down you also have no worries about your contacts
rec.motorcycles	re looking for movies w bikes there s also billy jack the wild one smokey and the bandit where jerry reed runs his truck over motorcycle gangs bikes and a video tape documentary on the hell s angels i found in a rental store once
rec.motorcycles	re wanted advice for new cylist the angel levine writes it s exactly as dangerous as it looks did you have anyone in particular in mind there jody
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering to know or not to know what is the question lotto husc harvard edu jerry lotto writes there has been a running thread on the need to understand countersteering i have seen a lot of opinion but not much of it has any basis in fact or study the bottom line is the understanding and ability to swerve was essentially absent among the accident involved riders in the hurt study the average rider does not identify that countersteering alone provides the primary input to effect motorcycle lean by themselves even after many years of practice i would agree entirely with these three paragraphs but did the hurt study make any distinction between an ability to swerve and a failure to swerve in most of the accidents and near accidents that i ve seen riders will almost always stand on the brakes as hard as they dare simply because the instinct to brake in the face of danger is so strong that it over rides everything else hard braking and swerving tend to be mutually exclusive manouvres did hurt draw any conclusions on which one is generally preferable
rec.motorcycles	re looking for women s motorcycle helmet lisa alex com lisa rowlands writes hi janice i don t know if i m being unduly cautious but i wouldn t buy a used helmet not for normal road use anyway you never really know what s happened to them in their past life have fun lisa rowlands i ll second that i saw a list somewhere of all the stuff that it was unwise to buy secondhand stuff like parachutes toilet paper condoms and motorcycle helmets seriously though why take the risk you are extremely unlikely to get a good fitting secondhand helmet cos life just doesn t work like that and as lisa says you never know where it s been before
rec.motorcycles	re cb c with flames out the exhaust in article c quw btq ux cso uiuc edu mikeh ux cso uiuc edu mike hollyman says hi i have an cb custom that i just replaced the cylinder head gasket on now when i put it back together again it wouldn t idle at all it was only running on cylinders and it would backfire and spit flames out the exhaust on the right side the exhaust is mac i bought new plugs today and it runs very rough and still won t idle i am quite sure the fine tune knobs on the carbs are messed up i checked the timing it was fine so i advanced it a little and that didn t help i assume the carbs need to be synched can i buy a kit and do this myself if so what kit is the best for the price any other suggestions thanks in advance mike hollyman it sounds like you got the cam timing off
rec.motorcycles	re antifreeze coolant in article apr research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna says for those of you with motorcycles of the liquid cooled persuasion what brand of coolant do you use and why i am looking for aluminum safe coolant preferably phosphate free and preferably cheaper than gallon can you believe it the kaw dealer wants a quart for the official blessed holy kawasaki coolant no way i m paying that usury thanks chris behanna dod h d fxwg wide glide jubilee s red lady behanna syl nj nec com cb t baby bike disclaimer now why would nec zx needs a name agree with any of this anyway i was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs i thought that all coolants were aluminum safe any more but i would like to know more since i must tear down my kawasaki again i must add
rec.motorcycles	re your opinion and what it means to me infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes since the occurance i ve paid many dollars in renumerance taken the drunk class and yes listened to all the self righteous assholes like yourself that think your so above the rest of the world because you ve never had your own little dd suaree the devil made me do it
rec.motorcycles	re countersteering to know or not to know what is the question on wed apr gmt mjs sys uea ac uk mike sixsmith said mike lotto husc harvard edu jerry lotto writes me the understanding and ability to swerve was essentially absent among me the accident involved riders in the hurt study mike i would agree entirely with these three paragraphs but did the hurt mike study make any distinction between an ability to swerve and a failure mike to swerve yes it was specifically the ability or understanding of the technique which was absent we have made a lot of progress between rider education and responsibility over the last ten twenty years but i am still amazed anytime i teach an erc how many people of many year riding experience discover countersteering for cornering or swerving mike everything else hard braking and swerving tend to be mutually exclusive mike manouvres did hurt draw any conclusions on which one is generally mike preferable the specific recommandation cited in the hurt study was that a formal street strategy like sipde for example was the most important component of any rider education curriculum the specific skills of emergency braking cornering and swerving must be taught and practiced as well but more significant was that of rider did nothing confronted with a potential accident and another third collided or fell over as a result of rider error the choice of specific maneuver is much less significant to the outcome than early detection and the proper execution of any effective countermeasure jerry lotto lotto lhasa harvard edu msfci hogssc bcso ama dod chemistry dept harvard univ it s my harley and i ll ride if i want to
rec.motorcycles	re for johs dhhalden no last pete young on the tue apr gmt wibbled nick pettefar npet bnr ca wrote tsk tsk tsk another newbie bites the dust eh they ll learn newbie sorry to disappoint you but as far as the internet goes i was in baghdad while you were still in your dads bag is this bit funny most of the people who made this group interesting or years ago are no longer around and i only have time to make a random sweep once a week or so hence i missed most of this thread i m terribly sorry based on your previous postings apparently devoid of humour sarcasm wit or the apparent capacity to walk and chew gum at the same time i assumed you were serious mea culpa i know i know subtlety is sort of you know subtle isn t it still it s nice to see that bnr are doing so well that they can afford to overpay some contractors to sit and read news all day that s foreign firms for you and a touchy newbie at that what s the matter too much starch in the undies nick the considerate biker dod concise oxford none gum chewer m lud nick pettefar contractor large teneo tuus intervallum cuurrently incarcerated at bnr o o npet bnr ca bmw k rs kay maidenhead the united kingdom o pres pbwasoh uk bs
rec.motorcycles	re fortune guzzler barred from bars charles parr on the tue apr gmt wibbled in article apr bnr ca npet bnr ca nick pettefar writes if satan rode a bike cb would you stop to help him of course we riders have to stick together you know besides he d stop for me satan by the way rides a vincent so does god jesus rides an rz the angels get ariels and the demons all ride matchless s i know because they talk to me through the fillings in my teeth regards charles dod rz within the span of the last few weeks i have heard elements of separate threads which in that they have been conjoined in time struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person i think that the vincent is the wrong sort of bike for satan to ride honda have just brought out the cb look in bike magazine which looks so evil that satan would not hesitate to ride it hole dms levi s and a black bomber jacket i m not sure about the helmet oh i know one of those darth vader ones there you go satan anybody seen him lately just a cruisin god would ride a vincent white lightning with rightous injection he d wear a one piece leather suit with matching boots helmet and gloves nick the righteous biker dod concise oxford new non leaky gearbox m lud nick pettefar contractor large teneo tuus intervallum cuurrently incarcerated at bnr o o npet bnr ca bmw k rs kay maidenhead the united kingdom o pres pbwasoh uk bs
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies various posts about shafties can t do wheelies no mike it is imposible due to the shaft effect the centripital effects of the rotating shaft counteract any tendency for the front wheel to lift off the ground good point john a buddy of mine told me that same thing when i had my bmw r gs i dumped the clutch at rpm hey ito nly revved to or so and you know what he was right uh folks the shaft doesn t have diddleysquatpoop to do with it i can get the front wheel off the ground on my ferchrissake bill wrs gozer mv com bill slack dod but her tears were shed in vain and her every word was lost in the rumble of his engine and the smoke from his exhaust oo o o
rec.motorcycles	re shaft drives and wheelies in article r ja dpa news ysu edu ak yfn ysu edu john r daker says in a previous article xlyx vax cit cornell edu says mike terry asks is it possible to do a wheelie on a motorcycle with shaft drive no mike it is imposible due to the shaft effect the centripital effects of the rotating shaft counteract any tendency for the front wheel to lift off the ground dod darkman well my last two motorcycles have been shaft driven and they will wheelie the rear gear does climb the ring gear and lift the rear which gives an odd feel but it still wheelies
rec.motorcycles	for sale zephyr hi boys and girls i just bought a beemer r gs and realized abruptly that i am a grad student i first sold my truck yesterday but i need to sell my zephyr too if i can sell it this month great insurance and tags both run out in a couple of weeks otherwise i ll tag and insure it and see what happens it s a very sweet bike miles almost all highway az wy co last summer plus some great rides between here and the border purchased new exactly one year ago apr it s a model it has a good fairing and a luggage rack red very clean perfect maintenance no bullshit i ll spare any further details other than to say i want to keep it and somebody will fit it like a charm not a bike for big people but not a small bike standard upright positioning and good looking smooth power great brakes good karma erik b o d y i s t h e b i k e dod asphaug hindmost lpl arizona edu kawi zephyr erik asphaug bmw r gs s o u l i s t h e r i d e r
rec.motorcycles	re boom dog attack i eagerly await comment the ice princess next door makes a habit of flooring her cage out of the driveway when she sees me coming probably only hits mph or so i made the mistake of waving to a neighbor she has some sort of grudge now i was riding downhill at mph on a local backroad when a brown dobie came flashing through the brush at well over mph on an intercept course with my front wheel the dog had started out at the top of the hill when it heard me and still had a lead when it hit the road the dog was approaching from my left and was running full tilt to get to my bike on the other side of the road before i went by rover was looking back at me to calculate the final trajectory too bad it didn t notice the car approaching at mph from the other direction i got a closeup view of the our poor canine friend s noggin careening off the front bumper smacking the asphalt and getting runover by the front tire it managed a pretty good yelp just before impact peripheral imminent doom i guess the driver didn t see me or they probably would have swerved into my lane the squeegeed pup actually got up and headed back home but i haven t seen it since sniff sometimes fate sees you and smiles rick
rec.motorcycles	for sale sigh for sale reluctantly classic bike yamaha xs twin original miles always stored inside front end with aftermarket tapered steering head bearings racer s supply rear bronze swingarm bushings tsubaki chain pirrhana fairing with headlight cutout one up carrera racing seat superbike bars velo stacks on twin carbs also have original seat tank is original cherry white paint with no scratches dents or dings needs a new exhaust as original finally rusted through and was discarded i was in process of making kenney roberts tt replica cafe racer when graduate school marriage child precluded further effort wife would love me to unload it it does need re assembly but i think everything is there i ll also throw in manuals receipts and a collection of xs society newsletters and relevant mag articles great fun classic bike with over k invested will consider reasonable offers timothy j shickley ph d director neurourology departments of urology and anatomy cell biology temple university school of medicine north broad st philadelphia pa voice data voice fax internet shickley vm temple edu bitnet shickley templevm bitnet icbm n w w
rec.motorcycles	re boom dog attack in article uupcb compdyn questor org ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau writes interestingly the one thing that never happened was that the bike never moved off course unfortunately i am one of the negative impaired the above sentence says i believe that the bike did move off course of course michael michael nelson cbr rr internet nelson seahunt imat com dod
rec.motorcycles	re cobra locks steve bunis se southwest chicago doc webrider central sun com wrote i was posting to alt locksmithing about the best methods for securing a motorcycle i got several responses referring to the cobra lock described below has anyone come across a store carrying this lock in the chicago area any other feedback from someone who has used this what about the new yamaha cyclelok from the photo in motorcyclist it looks the same hardened steel as a kryptonite u lock except it folds in five places it seems to extend out far enough to lock the rear tire to the tube of a parking sign or similar anyone had any experience with them how easy is it to attack the lock at the jointed sections tony
rec.motorcycles	re happy easter in article apr i isc com jeq lachman com jonathan e quist writes rolls royce owned by a non british firm ye gods that would be the end of civilization as we know it why not ford owns aston martin and jaguar general motors owns lotus and vauxhall rover is only owned by honda dave tharp dod you can t wear out davet interceptor cds tek com mra an indian scout k s indian chief ahrma or its brother the chief r s tr b ama they re built like rocks r velorex nsu max to take the knocks bmw r compulsive it s the harleys that my employer has no idea joiner give you grief
rec.motorcycles	bike advice i have an kawasaki kx it is in mint condition and starts on the first kick every time i have outgrown the bike and am considering selling it i was told i should ask around does that sound right or should it be higher lower also i am looking for a used zx how much do i have to spend and what year should i look for to get a bike without paying an arm and a leg thanks for the help rob fusi rwf lehigh edu
rec.motorcycles	re bmwmoa controversy in article apr pb esac uucp prahren pb esac uucp peter ahrens writes in article rider uucp joe rider cactus org writes vech ra msstate edu craig a vechorik writes good ol boys that have been there too long while i agree with you that the current board is garbage voting you in would simply be trading one form of trash for another do the opponents of your selections get equal time yo joe why don t you post what you really think if there are any rational bmwmoa folks left out there may the rest of us please have a brief summary of the current state of affairs in your esteemed organization together with an historical outline of how you got to the above contretemps now you know why i am just a dod member i like bikes and clubs but the politics and other b llsh t is a real turn off tuba irwin i honk therefore i am computrac richardson tx irwin cmptrc lonestar org dod r
rec.motorcycles	test test
rec.motorcycles	re bat helmet cbd from christopher bradley devlin cd i andrew cmu edu cbd but it s nothing compared to the ahem unique helmet cbd design seen in the new animated series it has a huge opening for his cbd mouth topped by the world s tiniest eyeslits above the enormous mouth cbd opening batman s helmet probably cuts you down to about degrees of cbd unrestricted vision with a helmet like this he might just be better cbd off with the leather cap mask thingy cbd c mon batman doesn t need to see he s batman cbd did you notice he only takes the bike out in the snow or rain so let s see what we have on the batdude so far he has a weird helmet he drags his knee in corners thanks cookson but how does he do it hidden bat pucks and he only takes the bike out in the snow or rain also he lets robin ride i think i could have used a bat mom would have made getting my license a lot easier there s a trend here stylish helmet stylish knee dragging rides only in stylish cartoon precipitation hmm could it be that we re dealing with a veritable airborne mammalian poseur dare i say it a bat squid huh bat squid it all adds up now let s make the b man an honorary dod dude all he needs is a dod sticker actually anyone have an address for batman s current artists both comic book and animated series we ll write and ask if batman would like to become an honorary denizen yeah special to the kotl is there a precedent for inducting an imaginary member with an imaginary motorcycle having seen the computers in the bat cave i think we can safely assume that he also has imaginary internet access ryan cousinetc yamaha vision xz black pig of inverness live to ride kotrb ajs c s king rat to work to dod i d be a squid if i could afford the bike flame to ryan cousineau compdyn questor org vancouver bc canada live slmr a my virtual reality check just bounced computer dynamics bbs hst v vancouver bc canada easy access low rates friendly sysop
rec.motorcycles	boom dog attack my previous posting on dog attacks must have generated some bad karma or something i ve weathered attempted dog attacks before using the approved method slow down to screw up dog s triangulation of target then take off and laugh at the dog now far behind you this time it didn t work because i didn t have time riding up the hill leading to my house i encountered a liver and white springer spaniel no relation to the springer softail or the springer spagthorpe a close relation to the spagthorpe viking actually the dog encountered me with intent to harm but i digress i was riding near the unpainted centerline of the roughly foot wide road doing between forty and sixty clicks mph for the velocity impaired the dog shot at me from behind bushes on the left side of the road at an impossibly high speed i later learned he had been accelerating from the front porch about thirty feet away heading down the very gently sloped approach to the side of the road i saw the dog and before you could say sipde he was on me boom i took the dog in the left leg and from the marks on the bike my leg was driven up the side of the bike with considerable force making permanent marks on the plastic parts of the bike and cracking one panel i think i saw the dog spin around when i looked back but my memory of this moment is hazy i next turned around and picked the most likely looking house the apologetic woman explained that the dog was not seriously hurt cut mouth and hoped i was not hurt either i could feel the pain in my shin and expected a cool purple welt to form soon sadly it has not so i m left with a tender shin and no cool battle scars interestingly the one thing that never happened was that the bike never moved off course the not inconsiderable impact did not push the bike off course nor did it cause me to put the bike out of control from some gut reaction to the sudden impact delayed pain may have helped me here as i didn t feel a sudden sharp pain that i can remember what worries me about the accident is this i don t think i could have prevented it except by traveling much slower than i was this is not necessarily an unreasonable suggestion for a residential area but i was riding around the speed limit i worry about what would have happened if it had been a car instead of a dog but i console myself with the thought that it would take a truly insane bdi cager to whip out of a blind driveway at mph for that matter how many driveways are long enough for a car to hit mph by the end i eagerly await comment ryan cousinetc yamaha vision xz black pig of inverness live to ride kotrb ajs c s king rat to work to dod i d be a squid if i could afford the bike flame to ryan cousineau compdyn questor org vancouver bc canada live slmr a he s hurt dammit jim i m a doctor oh right computer dynamics bbs hst v vancouver bc canada easy access low rates friendly sysop
rec.motorcycles	re what is it with cats and dogs in article apr cbnewsj cb att com jimbes cbnewsj cb att com james bessette writes in article hplsla hp com kens hplsla hp com ken snyder writes ps i also heard from a dog breeder that the chains of bicycles and motorcycles produced high frequency squeaks that dogs loved to chase ask the breeder why they also chase bmws also squeaky bmw riders ray shea they wound like a very effective method unisql inc leah unisql ray cs utexas edu some days i miss d boon real bad dod team twinkie hawk gt
rec.motorcycles	re got my bike was wanted advice on cb c purchase in article apr ll mit edu jburnside ll mit edu jamie w burnside writes in article apr ncsu edu jrwaters eos ncsu edu jack rogers waters writes being a reletively new reader i am quite impressed with all the usefull info available on this newsgroup i would ask how to get my own dod number but i ll probably be too busy riding does this count yes he thought about it cat dod faq mailx s hahahha jburnside ll mit edu waiting to press return hey c mon guys and gals i chose my words very carefully and even tried to get my faq s straight don t holler bohica at me around here even mentioning the dod without a number in your sig can get you soundly faqed notice however that i myself did not faq the careful monk he was after all waiting to press return jack waters ii dod i don t fear the thief in the night its the one that comes in the afternoon when i m still asleep that i worry about
rec.motorcycles	re flashing anyone in apr news columbia edu rdc cunixf cc columbia edu robert d castro writes hello all on my bike i have hazard lights both front and back turn signals flash since i live in nj and commute to nyc there are a number of tolls one must pay on route just before arriving at a toll booth i switch the hazards on i do thisto warn other motorists that i will be taking longer than the seconds to make the transaction taking gloves off getting money out of coin changer pocket making transaction putting gloves back on takes a little more time than the average cager takes to make the same transaction of paying the toll i also notice that when i do this cagers tend to get the message and usually go to another booth my question is this a good bad thing to do any others tend to do the same just curious o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o rob castro email rdc cunixf cc columbia edu live for today kz ltd phone for today you live dod nyc new york new york usa rc tm beleive it or not ny state once considered eliminating tolls for motor cycles based simply on the fact that motos clog up toll booths but then mario realized the foolishness of trading a few hundred k s a year for some relief in traffic congestion too bad he won t take that sumpreme court justice job i thought we might be rid of him forever matt dennie internet mmd wbst v xerox com xerox corporation rochester ny usa reaching consensus in a group often is confused with finding the right answer norman maier
rec.motorcycles	guzzi t tires plus fairing question i have a question about tires for my guzzi it is a t the tires that were on it when i just bought it are old and cracked i do not have an owners manual for it yet but the tires listed in the haynes manual are front h rear h and pressures recommended are front and rear oddly the pressure for the same tire on the t is listed at psi instead anyone know the reason as i know though the pressure i should run at is that recommended by the manufacturer of the new tires i purchase the real question i have is this the old tires that are on the bike are for the front a metzler touring special h and for the rear an avon roadrunner h h as marked on each tire both are larger than that listed in the haynes manual what does the owners manual recommend and was it common to go up one size for this bike also this will be my first motorcycle with innertubes any comments on the various manufacturers inner tube qualities the above sizes are inches except for the additional mark on the current rear tire what is the best metric match the local bmw dealer thought h on the front and h on the back he also happens to be very good at getting close to matching mail order prices i am thinking of going with a metzler me laser possibly comp k on the front and me on the back both in mbs variety if possible the longer lasting belting system i already use the me on both the vision and fj for the front and like it and i thought that with the shaft drive behavior and torque from the guzzi that the me might give more predictable back end control and sliding behavior than a me might as well as giving much better tire milage life any comments a friend told me he thought that my bike had boranni rims which are very good but are relatively soft and have delicate sidewalls i do not wish to mount the tires myself this first time so aside from warning the shop to be careful any other comments i should make i havn t looked at the rim to check out the make yet if it is marked he just told me late yesterday and i havn t had a chance to check the rim type on another note i will remove the ugly but in good shape anyone want it vetter fairing and i will run without a windscreen for a while but eventually i would like a simple rounded cafe style quarter fairing for it it could be fork handlebar mounted any suggestions is there such a thing as a frame mounted quarter fairing of the cafe style for this bike how about lower bars clip ons for it i would like to restore the bike into a good condition runner with a few modern updates but while not being historically exactly accurate still have it reflect relatively well a representation of the cafe style yes i know to be picky that period really predates this bike it is just that this bike has such potential for that look edward walsh hewlett packard company edw boi hp com disk memory division ms p o box boise idaho fj xz rj vision guzzi t dod edward walsh hewlett packard company edw boi hp com disk memory division ms p o box boise idaho fj xz rj vision guzzi t dod
rec.motorcycles	sabbatical and future flames so i begin my week sabbatical in about minutes six wonderful weeks of riding and no phones or email i won t have any way to check mail or setup a vacation agent no sh t though i can dial in and get newsfeed dont ask so if there are any outstanding cfc s or such things please try my compuserve address compuserve com anybody wants to do some weekday rides around the ba send me a mail to above or post here i ll be thinking about all of you stuck if front of your terminals sheeyaahhh and monkeys might fly out of my butt ride safe dave sense ain t common dave warner opinions unlikely to be shared ama hog dod by my employer or anyone else dwarner sceng ub com signature on file dwarner milo ub com compuserve com fxsts t stolen
rec.motorcycles	re boom dog attack in article clarke bdrc bd com clarke bdrc bd com richard clarke writes final trajectory too bad it didn t notice the car approaching at mph from the other direction i got a closeup view of the our poor canine friend s noggin careening off the front bumper smacking the asphalt and getting runover by the front tire it managed a pretty good yelp just before impact peripheral imminent doom i guess the driver didn t see me or they probably would have swerved into my lane the squeegeed pup actually got up and headed back home but i haven t seen it since same thing to me everyday the same dog would chase my bicycle the owners thought it was cute even after i got the moto the stupid dog would do the same thing then one day i was coming home in the opposite lane the fluff with teeth ran to get me and played momentum sharing with a dodge pick the owners tried to blame me for driving down street when i did i lived in a wierd town the beav mike beavington bellnorthernresearch ottawa ont canada dod seca seca rz seca suzuki seca turbo v sabre gts can t afford the mbeaving bnr ca parking spaces we don t need no steenkin parking spaces
rec.motorcycles	re insurance and lotsa points in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes well it looks like i m f cked for insurance i had a dwi in and for the beemer as a rec vehicle it ll cost me almost bucks to insure year now what do i do go bikeless you drink and drive you pay no smiley mike beavington mbeaving bnr ca opinions are my own and not my companies
rec.motorcycles	re ok so i was a little hasty in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes apparently that last post was a little hasy since i called around to more places and got quotes for less than and liability only of course plus one palced will give me c c for my car liab on the bike for only total which ain t bad at all so i won t go with the first place i called that s fer sure nevertheless dwi is f ckin serious hope you ve got some brains now mike beavington mbeaving bnr ca these opinions are my own and not my companies
rec.motorcycles	re bikes vs horses was re insect impac in a previous article egreen east sun com ed green pixel cruncher says in article sda usenet ins cwru edu ai cleveland freenet edu mike sturdevant writes the only people who train for years to jump a horse feet are equistrian posers who wear velvet tails and useless helmets which as it turns out is just about everybody that s serious about horses what a bunch of weenie fashion nerds and the helmets suck i m wearing my shoei mountain bike helmet fuck em or i m permanently injured oops too late nah i can still walk unaided go fast take chances mike s
rec.motorcycles	do splitfires help spagthorpe diesels in article c jf djr news cso uiuc edu wcd uxa cso uiuc edu daniel warren c writes earlier i was reading on the net about using splitfire plugs one guy was thinking about it and almost everybody shot him to hell well i saw one think that someone said about show me a team that used split fires well here s some additional insight and some theories about splitfire plugs and how they boost us as oppossed to cages splitfires were originally made to burn fuel more efficiently and increased power for the x cages well for these guys splitfires now i don t know about all of this and i m trying to catch up with somebody about it now but splitfires should help twins more than splitfires work mainly by providing a more or less unshrouded spark to the combustion chamber if an engine s cylinder head design can benefit from this then the splitfires will yield a slight performance increase most noticeably in lower rpm range torque splitfires didn t do diddly squat for my gmc pickup l v but do give a noticeable performance boost in my harley sportster and my best friend s sportster folks i know who ve tried them in evo motors can t tell any performance boost over plain plugs which is interesting since the xlh and big twin evo combustion chambers are pretty much the same shape just different sizes two of my friends who have shovelhead harleys swear by the splitfires but if i had a shovelhead i d dual plug it instead since they respond well enough to dual plugs to make the machine work and extra ignition system worth the expense plus they look really cool with a spark plug on each side of each head neal howard xlh dod computrac inc richardson tx doh o neal cmptrc lonestar org std disclaimer my opinions are mine not computrac s let us learn to dream gentlemen and then perhaps we shall learn the truth august kekule
rec.motorcycles	re definition of two up so following that logic could you describe two down as the transition period between two up and coming to rest after a high or low side otherwise it sounds pretty good richard pierson e vnet or perhaps it s referring to the wife and child sitting in the sidecar next to the one up on the moto anyone ever heard of a game called oneup onedown it s a drinking game for all you older folx andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	re rim needed in article apr news columbia edu twang cunixf cc columbia edu tony wang writes in article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes in article apr walter bellcore com pgoudas gomer bellcore com paul goudas writes also is there a law or something that requires nyc to keep it s street empty of potholes greater than a certain depth i rather my bike hahahahahaahahha whahwuhuhahuah that s a good one really stop i can t breathe bite your tongue those of us who actually ride in nyc on a daily basis could not live without those potholes it ll ruin the flavor it s not enough just to dodge taxis buses pedistrians bicycle messengers and bdi s on a block by block basis those potholes always makes for that sudden randomness that makes it all so much fun besides where else can you think of that allows you to constantly test your panic braking shocks and dirt riding abilities all on city streets you smooth asphalt canyon carvers don t know what you re missing i was laughing about the law part i ve driven thru soho manahattan i know what you re talking bout not that durham nc is any better well maybe a little bit anyway but the nc dot takes more money from road taxes and puts it in their own pockets and into the pockets of the guys building the large condos that need their own roads than they do back into fixing roads but hey the local paper did a report of this last summer and boy am i glad i don t work for the dot cause they got shat on bigtime wonder who lost their jobs ed got any idea andy infante you can listen to what everybody says but the fact remains bmw r that you ve got to get out there and do the thing yourself dod joan sutherland my opinions dammit have nothing to do with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	re aerostitch or piece in article apr vax cit cornell edu na vax cit cornell edu writes request for opinions which is better a one piece aerostitch or a two piece aerostitch like most everyone else i ended up getting two different sizes for the top and bottom my top is a l and the bottom is a l for the bottom the waist is far too large but the thighs fit just right the had a better waist but cut off the circulation in my legs i have large muscular thighs and no i didn t use the thighmaster to get them the jacket fits me ok in the chest slightly snug at the waist and too small in the arms i can t imagine finding a one piece size that would have fit correctly as even the piece has it s problems strange since my v pilot jacket fits great all over and when i tried the matching pants they fit like a glove as well i can only assume the models aero design uses to design its suits are in some way different from us real folks also even though it s related to convienience you look pretty damn wierd walking around with the tops and bottoms while running errands i ve gotten some really suspicious looks and sweated a lot while in a store wearing the whole suit since you can t fit the top and bottom in any motorcycle storage device yet devised except the trunk in my sidecar rig with the two piece i unzip the pants i generally leave the two pieces zipped together primarily because the pants fall down unless i pull the cheesy elastic belt type band real tight stuff them in one of my spacious bmw saddlebags the pants just fit and run errands just wearing the jacket actually if i know i ll be running errands i just wear my v pilot jacket but that s just me as far as crash protection i d say that both suits are probably equal it seems that for weather protection if anything the piece provides a little more because of the jacket overlapping the pants by inches the piece is probably a little less comfortable around the waist just because of the extra layer of stuff but maybe not so i d have to vote for the two piece despite the slightly odd fit i still find the suit the most versatile piece of riding clothing i own wouldn t go long distance without it ken wallich wallich ncd com ken wallich com kmw al org decwrl vixie amber ken ken wallich wallich ncd com ken wallich com kmw al org decwrl vixie amber ken
rec.motorcycles	re changing sprocket ratios honda cb karish gondwana stanford edu chuck karish writes that s a twin cam right yep i think it s the only cb with a chain after years it s finally stretching into the replace zone honda s don t have the widest of power bands sigh i know i know clayton t brooks from the heart cbrooks ms uky edu pot u o ky of the blue cbrooks ukma bitnet lex ky grass and rutgers uunet ukma cbrooks bourbon country ama nma maa ams acbl dod
rec.motorcycles	re bike advice ummm did you have any bikes other than that kx if not i d suggest you look for an zx since they only have about horsepower whereas the has over and might be a bit much for you sincerely nathaniel zx dod ama
rec.motorcycles	re riceburner respect in article apr research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com chris behanna writes on a completely different tack what was the eventual outcome of babe vs the bad mouthed biker i thought i posted this last year the women came to court with three witnesses the two women that were in the car and one neighbor that heard me shouting my lawyer didn t like the odds since there were multiple complaints both ways and the judge had a history of finding everyone guilty of at least something so he convinced us she came without a lawyer to drop everything the net result was a laywer bill for me and court costs for her the only consolation was that she had trouble scraping together the while is not quite one week s beer money for me roid
rec.motorcycles	re riceburner respect in article c qqxp ie cbmvax cbm commodore com hartzler cbmvax cbm commodore com jerry hartzler cats writes duck squids don t wave or return waves ever even to each excuse me for being an ignoramus but what are these edu breaths with more riceburner than brain roid
rec.motorcycles	re motorcycle detailing tip re rubbing compound you mean meguire s didn t work the dod magic elixir of choice for plastic stuff ron miller dod
rec.motorcycles	re cobra locks greetings netters steve writes about cobra locks well i have the mother of all locks on friday the th of april i took possesion of a cobra links lock diameter this was a special order i weighs a lot i had to carry it home and it was digging into my shoulder after about two blocks i have currently a kryptonite rock lock through the front wheel a hd padlock for the steering lock a master padlock to lock the cover to two front spokes and the cobra links through the rear swing arm and around a post in an underground parking garage next friday the th i have an appointment to have an alarm installed on me bike when i travel the cobra links and the cover and padlock stay at home by the way i also removed the plastic mesh that is on the cobra links and encased the lock from end to end using bicycle inner tubes two of them i got the from bicycle dealer that sold me the cobra links the guys were really great and didn t mark up the price of the lock much and the inner tubes were free later fxstc rock n roll mike mychalkiw hog ryerson polytechnical institute dod just this side of hell academic computing information centre doh just the other side email acad ryevm ryerson ca
rec.motorcycles	extraordinary footpeg engineering okay dod ers here s a goddamn mystery for ya today i was turning a degree corner just like on any other day but there was a slight difference a rough spot right in my path caused the suspension to compress in mid corner and some part of the bike hit the ground with a very tangible thunk i pulled over at first opportunity to sus out the damage my bike is a kawasaki gpx r with footpegs that are hinged and sprung such that they fold upward and backward on contact with ground etc and on the lower extreme corner of each peg there is mounted a bank follower or a little stud that theoretically is the first bit to hit the ground in a banked turn the stud is mounted on the footpeg by a threaded bit about mm long which screws into a threaded hole in the footpeg now for the mystery the stud on the side of the bike that clunked when i turned was absent i m fairly sure it was there before the event there was no damage to the end of the footpeg where the stud would ordinarily have been in fact the thread in the hole in the footpeg was perfectly intact with no evidence of something having been forcefully ripped out of it only moments previously okay all you engineering types how the f k do you explain this how can you rip a tightly fitting steel thread out of a threaded hole in alloy without damaging the thread in the hole is this some sort of hi tech design thingo that kawasaki never mentioned like that the end of the footpeg suddenly changes phase on impact to let the stud rip out then changes back to a solid i m quite amazed at how this could have happened in the meantime life goes on without a left hand bank follower barry manor dod confused accidental peg scraper
rec.motorcycles	re dogs vs bikes dogs will chase anything that moves i have two dogs and they love chasing me when i ride off they will also chase any car that passes running along the footpath sidewalk at up to kph they don t seem to go after trucks though the size difference must be a factor it also works in my favour though i can exercise them quite easily by riding mile up the road and back a few times ja s minyos rmit oz au
rec.motorcycles	kawasaki zx engine needed i m looking for a kawasaki zx engine just the engine no intake exhaust ignition etc preferably in the central texas area but we haven t had much luck around here so we ll take whatever we can get please reply via mail or call if you have one or more really need a spare thanx jonathan lusky lusky ccwf cc utexas edu turbos are nice but i d rather be blown jeep wrangler for sale rx a holley bbl camaro rs spd
rec.motorcycles	forsale yamaha seca turbo i don t want to do this but i need money for school this is a very snappy bike it needs a little work and i don t have the money for it some details miles mitsubishi turbo not asthetically beautiful but very fast one of the few factory turboed bikes not a kit must see and ride to appreciate how fun this bike is i am asking or best offer the bike can be seen in bennington vermont e mail for more info thanks chris santac rpi edu
rec.motorcycles	bmw k s for sale miles black leather tank bra tank bag corbin seat metzler b tires garaged and pampered i can t afford to continue paying nyc garage fees for two bikes so one of em has to go best offer above takes it stephen manes manes magpie linknet com manes and associates new york ny usa o o
rec.motorcycles	re info on sport cruisers in article fonhvm wb e huxb andrew cmu edu jae cmu edu writes i m looking for a sport cruiser factory installed fairings full half hard saddle bags cc and above and all that and still has that sporty look i particularly like the r rs and k rt or s or any of the k series bmw bikes i was wondering if there are any other comparable type bikes being produced by companies other than bmw the honda st was designed by honda in germany originally for the european market as competition for the bmw k series check it out tony tony kidson pgp key by request voice morgan towers the cat has had to move now e mail in order morgan road as i ve had to take the top tony morgan demon co uk bromley off of the machine tny cix compulink co uk england br qe honda st dod compuserve com
rec.motorcycles	re misc buying info needed in article apr hamp hampshire edu jyaruss hamp hampshire edu writes is there a buying guide for new used motorcycles that lists reliability how to go about the buying process what to look for etc cycle world puts one out but i m sure it s not very objective try talking with dealers and the people that hang out there as well as us we love to give advice is there a pricing guide for new used motorcycles blue book most of the bigger banks have a blue book which includes motos ask for the one with rvs in it are there any books articles on riding cross country motorcycle camping etc couldn t help you here is there an idiots guide to motorcycles you re reading it cliff weston dod seca ii tem the female body is a beautiful work of art while the male body is lumpy and hairy and should not be seen by the light of day
rec.motorcycles	re accident report in article jun prl philips nl mcardle prl philips nl owen mcardle writes in article ranck vtvm cc vt edu ranck vtvm cc vt edu wm l ranck writes in article jun bcrka bnr ca whitton bnr ca mark whitton writes it turns out that the trailer lights were not hooked up to the truck yep basic rule never expect or believe turn signals completely around here and many other places people just don t signal at all and sometimes the signals aren t working sometimes they get left on the scary bit about this is the is the non availability of rear lights at all now living in the netherlands i ve learned that the only reliable indicators are those red ones which go on at both sides at once some people call them brake lights once they light up expect anything to occur in front of you it s not just the dutch though however i never realised how much i relied on this until i got caught a few times behind someone whose lights didn t work at all once i d sussed it out it wasn t so bad knowing it is half the battle but it s a great way to find out that you ve been following someone too closely now i try to check for lights all the time cos that split second can make all the difference though it shouldn t be necessary i know owen what used to peeve me in canada was the cars with bloody red rear indicators you d see a single red light come on and think now is he stopping but one brake lamp is not working or does he have those dumb bloody red rear indicators this being survival you have to assume he s braking and take the appropriate actions until such time as the light goes out and on again after which you can be reasonably certain it s a bloody red rear indicator ivan reid paul scherrer institute ch ivan cvax psi ch gsx f rg wd si you porsche me pass dod
rec.sport.baseball	spring records the orioles pitching staff again is having a fine exhibition season four shutouts low team era well i haven t gotten any baseball news since march but anyways could they contend yes could they win it all maybe but for all those fans of teams with bad spring records remember earl weaver s first law of baseball from his book on managing no one gives a damn in july if you lost a game in march btw anyone have any idea on the contenders for the o s fifth starter it s pretty much set that sutcliffe mussina mcdonald and rhodes are the first four in the rotation here at johns hopkins university where the mascot is the blue jay their baseball team logo was the toronto club s logo now it s a anatomically correct blue jay god can t they think of an original idea it s even in the same pose as the baltimore oriole on the o s hats how many people realize that the bird is really called a baltimore oriole admiral steve c liu internet address admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu committee for the liberation and intergration of terrifying organisms and their rehabilitation into society from red dwarf polymorph the bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed this sig has been brought to you by frungy the sport of kings
rec.sport.baseball	re eck vs rickey was re rickey s whining again in article blue cis pitt edu genetic pitt edu david m tate writes i ve read all of the followups to this but i thought i d go back to the original article to make specific comments about the method jao megatest com john oswalt said he has obtained the play by play records in computer readable form for every major league baseball game for the past several years he devised an algorithm which i call sum over situations and wrote a computer program to calculate every major league players contribution using it it works like this look at every situation in every game in a baseball season a situation is determined by inning score where the baserunners are and how many outs there are for each situation count how many times the team eventually won the game that the situation occured in and divide by the number of times the situation came up to come up with a value for that situation this was first done by george lindsey in the late s early s and reported in article an investigation of strategies in baseball author george r lindsey journal operations research issue volume july august pp later pete palmer did the same thing using simulated seasons to generate a larger set of data to avoid the kind of small sample anomalies that other people have worried about he reported this in the hidden game of baseball with john thorn gary skoog modified the method a bit and did some work on what he called a value added measure based on these situational values his were based directly on marginal runs though not on win probabilities these results as applied to the season were reported in one of the bill james baseball abstract books help me out here somebody for example a situation might be inning score runner on second and no outs there were regular season major league games last year with the rockies and marlins there will be more this year say this situation came up in of those and the team ahead won of them then the value of this situation is description of method look at change in win probability based on the at bat plus any baserunning and credit debit the player by that amount each time he gets a plate appearance now for each player sum up all his at bat and base running values for the season to obtain an overall value for that player obviously the sum of all players values for each game and for the season as a whole will be that s only because you always credit x to the batter and x to the pitcher there s no validation involved ok there s a very big problem here that nobody has yet commented on you re adding probabilities and probabilities don t add runs you can add the total team runs breaks down into how many runs joe contributed plus how many runs fred contributed etc but probabilities don t work that way if bob increases his team s chance of winning by in each of pas that does not mean that bob increased his team s chance of winning by in fact it doesn t mean anything because the units are screwy i agree and disagree john is saying that the batters efforts will result in more wins then losses while you are probably correct that does not mean more wins then losses it means something i would rather have a player who increased my teams chances of winning by in each of pas then i would a player who increased my chances of winning by in each of pas thus there appears to me to be an obvious positive association between john s statistic and winning games thus before you disregard this stat it appears to me that further study must go into what sort of relationship there is consider an example bob hits a out solo hr in the bottom of the first about on your scale he does the same thing again in the fourth with the score tied for another and again in the seventh with the score tied for another and finally in the ninth to win the game by a score of for a value of bob hit solo hr in plate appearances and was credited by your method with but what does that mean was bob responsible for the win certainly not the defense is always responsible if you include pitching in that and bob wasn t pitching in fact bob was only of the offense which is a lot but not even close to furthermore what about the other team runs say they all came on solo hr by fred then fred was hitting hr to tie up the game which are just as valuable as hr to take the lead see lindsey and fred will himself have accrued a good rating or so so fred and bob combined have amassed of a win in one game there s clearly a problem here the only problem here is an insistance that these number mean exactly how many wins the team has first we are using averages over many seasons and applying them to one game second remember some players performance take away from the chance of you winning that is a player who gets an out gets a negative probability in most cases thus i m not sure in any given game when you add up all the numbers for a team who won that they will add up to in that game sometimes they will add up to more then one sometime less than one also the pitchers bad performances giving up runs may have given them a large negative percentage for that game also any batter that pulled an night would give large negatives greg thinking about the right things but his intuition is off the mark closers are enormously important the total number of runs value is outweighed by when they come or are prevented from comming the doubling which greg allows is not enough in another article i proposed a test of this we can predict a team s won lost record quite accurately by looking at how many runs total they score and allow without regard to when those runs score in the game if late runs are really more important than early runs then looking only at late runs should lead to a better predictor right no but really only because you have a smaller sample size i would think however that the number of runs you score in the first inning would be just as good as a prediction as how many runs you score in the last inning and realize something else a closer usually comes in in a close situation not a blow out it is hard to argue that any runs that a closer gives up in a game have equal importance to those given up in the first inning look a closer giving up runs often means a team will lose many games on the other hand a starter who gives up runs often still leaves his team a chance to win the offence has many more outs to do something about but i am not saying all late inning situations are equally important either if i am down runs in the ninth it really does not matter how many runs my pitcher gives up in the ninth here s another thought experiment apply this method to basketball what you find is that points scored in the first half of the game have almost exactly no value because no lead is safe with an entire half yet to play furthermore the sub in off the bench who sinks the winning free throws with no time on the clock gets a for the game while the star forward who scored points in the first half before spraining his ankle gets a zero does this make sense no but why would you assume that the teams probability of winning would be before the possesion in which the free throws were made look if you are down point with seconds left there is a fairly high probability that you will win the game if you are in possesion of the ball and do not forget that somebody elses missed shots turnovers fouls bad defense etc caused a negative chance that the team would win from reading all of the discussion on this statistic i feel that those who critisize it to a certain extent are doing so out of an agenda at first look this statistic valadates clutchness but it really does not cluthness revolves around the idea that certain players in crucial situation elevate their performance and others performance goes down i ve never seen convincing proof that this really happens so if you assume there is no clutchness then that means that except for a lot of noice this statistic has a positive association to player performance there is a way to get rid of the noice if you do not believe in clutchness certainly we could find out what the average value of a home run is for example we may find for instance that a home run increases your chance of winning by on average while a strikeout decreases your chance of winning by i bet if this were done we would find that this statistic was just as good as other statistics we have for predicting wins and losses how do we evaluate relief pitchers say john and sam have the exact same pitching statistics runs earned runs k s bb s etc both had exceptional numbers john however only pitched in closer situations while sam was a mop up man who was more valuble to their team probably john who was the better pitcher they were probably about the same brian smith
rec.sport.baseball	re no joke rockies have attendance record hell the orioles opening day game could easily be the largest in history if we had a stadium with seats but unfortunely the yards a definitely excellent ballpark only holds like with sro spots ticket sales for the entire year is moving fast bleacher seats are almost gone for every game this year it s a extremely likelyhood that the o s could sell out every game this year especially if we lead the division for most of the year like on another front the sale of the orioles to anyone is likely to be forced upon eli jacobs who is major debt apparently maybe we can get an owner willing to spend on a proven rightfielder free agent in the winter fernando has made the o s as the fifth starter the o s pitching staff looks pretty good sutcliffe mussina mcdonald rhodes and fernando baltimore is my pick for the victors in a very competitive al east admiral steve c liu internet address admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu committee for the liberation and intergration of terrifying organisms and their rehabilitation into society from red dwarf polymorph the bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed this sig has been brought to you by frungy the sport of kings second to last day of the season gregg the true wild thing olson uncorks a wild pitch allowing the blue jays to tie blue jays win in the th and ends the baby birds miracle season of
rec.sport.baseball	players overpaid there s a lot of whining about how much players are overpaid i thought i d put together an underpaid team that could win a pennant i splurged and let four of the players earn as much as half a million dollars the highest paid player is frank thomas at k i cut some players like kenny lofton chris hoiles keith mitchell tim wakefield and a bunch of pitchers all of whom could have arguably made the team better at a cost of million for the lot of them the total team salary is averaging slightly over k a player if that s too steep you can dump thomas and bagwell replacing them with paul sorrento and a minimum wager to save a bit over a million dollars and still have one of the best teams in the majors p juan guzman p mussina p castillo p eldred p rhodes p militello rp rojas rp beck rp melendez rp hernandez rp nied c rodriguez c piazza b thomas b bagwell b knoblauch b barberie b gomez b palmer ss listach ss pena lf gonzalez cf lankford rf r sanders of plantier ted frank however teel should have mentioned that though thf kimbark uchicago edu his advice is legally sound if you follow it the u of c law school you will probably wind up in jail standard disclaimers james donald in misc legal
rec.sport.baseball	re rickey henderson in article apr ra msstate edu js isis msstate edu jiann ming su writes i say buy out henderson s contract and let him go bag groceries next season you ll be able to sign him for nothing that goes for any bitching ball player i doubt henderson would clear waivers and if he did he would instantly be signed for the major league minimum with oakland picking up the remaining million tab some gms value on field performance too valentine
rec.sport.baseball	giants win the pennant giants win the pennant giants win the pennant gi ooops i guess i m a little early here see you in october
rec.sport.baseball	re minnesota pitching in article snelson uwsuper edu snelson uwsuper edu scott r nelson writes the rotation has changed due to a strange injury to scott erickson he developed a twinge in the stomach area and has been taken out of the rotation new rotation to the best of my mind s knowledge is kevin tapani jim deshais pat mahomes willie banks add mike trombley in there somewhere since they need five people mark guthrie will remain in the bullpen as the long lefty as to ss and b short will be played by scott leius who played short for much of his career before the twins at third mike pagliarulo and jeff reboulet will platoon pags and terry jorgenson will platoon at third with reboulet as the backup infielder pags looked pretty miserable yesterday for a guy who lead the league in da in muffing what should be routine grounders heck muffing a grounder i would probably have gotten to jorgenson did nothing exceptional that i noticed leius missed a ball i think gagne would have reached we will certainly miss gag s glove this season winfield has struggled during preseason sunday against the colorado rockies he went for with rbis and scored once he looked pretty good there contrary to what the mediots have been saying he looked reasonable at first he isn t mid s hrbek but then neither is the pretty big guy himself any more note i m used to seeing the twins b looking kinda big on the field but not that big if he hits vaguely like last year he s a perfectly good first baseman note much of this posting is from personal observation yesterday in a game where the regulars were mostly pulled after several innings winfield may have big holes in his defensive game that didn t show up he didn t have to pick any bad throws for example but i ll take what i saw so far david thornley have tickets will travel to dome
rec.sport.baseball	brewers injuries hi all i ve been locked in a small closet chained to a lab bench for the last week or two without access to really important information i saw the million shoulder back on the dl how long is he out for i e how many millions inning will he get this year nothing personal against higuera mind you just wondering how bud can keep coffing up money for him when he lets current big producers go over a relative pittance please realize the term relative pittance can only be used with sarcasm when discussing baseball salaries additional questions i did nt get to see bones pitch this spring how is he looking and where is he going to fit in the rotation how is surhoff shaping up defensively at third are they going to build a new stadium when tom
rec.sport.baseball	binaca blast deep drive derby bbddd returns in article piisn asq network ucsd edu king cogsci ucsd edu jonathan king writes a less well publicized part of the now infamous darrin jackson for derek bell trade was the fact that san diego included in the deal even less publicized than this however was that the didn t come from the padres but from an un named source and that the money didn t go to the blue jays in toronto the money was diverted into a london bank account owned by a shadowy character named vincent gray i should be so lucky the account number must have been rejected the odd thing was that gray wasn t some british financier but a canadian social scientist working at the university of western ontario gray was previously known to the authorities only as an associate of john palmer and as the man who had the previous year discovered the true tater name of bing bang ben macdonald to be accurate it is big bang ben macdonald soon after that gray and palmer sent word to ottawa that canada had achieved absolute superiority over the united states in the field of baseballistic research as she controlled both the acker cook pitch alike contest and the binaca blast research institute the prime minister smiled i hope not to think that i would inadvertantly give any pleasure to mulroney really ruins my day ps matthew wall a marvellous ending to the section on the expos okay so i m not giving up the day job but in an effort to help me keep the day job i ve managed to foist the job of running the binaca blast deep drive derby onto vince gray to whom future deep drive related tidbits should be sent vince sscl uwo ca or vince vaxi sscl uwo ca please identify any messages with the subject line bbddd vince can take this post as the cue to chime in about what he plans to do as the new director of the research institute and what kind of body armor ontarians are wearing this spring meanwhile i have to go pick up that truckload of denis boucher cards i bought to fill in the area behind our tool shed jking realizing the taterific importance of this work john palmer and i concluded that we might be able to pool some resources i have not yet gone through the archives that jonathan sent to me when i do i will send out an official introduction to the deep drive derby however i wonder if we need to rename the project now that the principal investigator and research archive have changed send your suggestions for a rename of the study to me at the address given above and just think it s opening day soon the balls will be flying out no get your minds out of the gutter of the ball parks and helpless bystanders will be injured by balls reentering the atmosphere and you thought that meteorite showers were made of rocks who will be the stars this year can anyone hope to combat brad arnsberg s record start to last year the season is young the balls newly rubbed in mud the hot dogs starting to boil for the rest of the year play ball and take cover and may all your sliders hang vince
rec.sport.baseball	re designated hitter rule in article ekdfc ttacs ttu edu ekdfc ttacs ttu edu david coons writes in article apr bsu ucs ecgillespi leo bsuvc bsu edu writes i am doing a postition paper on the designated hitter rule any information or even opinions would be greatly apprecitated ecgillespie magic should be rescinded the rules say baseball is a game between two teams of nine players each let s keep it that way last weeks sports illustrated has a couple of big articles on the designated hitter it is the baseball issue th is weeks sports illustrated
rec.sport.baseball	atas n l games standings of all philadelphia at chicago teams tied for st after sunday dick redding battled chet brewer in the first game of a dramatic four game series one friday one saturday and a good old sunday doubleheader what could be better declared ernie banks perhaps the fact that the cubs are challenging it s pitching it s always been pitching that we ve lacked announced ryne sandberg if we can get by brewer then beat carlton alexander or bunning preferrably of the last three we ll know we might be able to win lord i hope we pull it off the phils scored once in the top of the first richie ashburn singled pete rose followed with a hit sending ashburn around second kiki cuyler cut the ball off in left center and threw a bullet in to ernie banks who threw to ron santo to get ashburn at third rose went to second on the play christobel torrienti lifted a long fly to center moving pete rose to third schmidt was walked the cubs were absolutely refusing to let him beat them both torrienti and schmidt will likely draw walks this year chuck klein is starting to hit very well and he lashed a double into a gap in right center cool papa bell s speed allowed him to cut the ball off and prevent schmidt from scoring nellie fox was walked and bob boone grounded out to second ending the threat teams are starting to realize that you don t have to pitch to schmidt or torrienti and that is lowering their run total it puts a lot of pressure on klein and dick allen who platoons with chuck klein and occasionally spells rose at first and it s a credit to the phillies that they ve been able to sustain their pace the picthers have slumped at times so came the analysis from frank chance the cubs got that run back when bell bunted for a hit thomas grounder moved him to second and after sandberg made out billy williams singled home a run in the sixth ron santo launched a two run homer to make it dick redding got in trouble in the eighth as schmidt singled and klein singled him to third ed reulbach entered to face fox but dick allen popped out of the dugout to hit allen doubled to right but luckily for the cubs williams had moved to left and andre dawson had been inserted for defense he fired a bullet to home plate to keep klein at third lance parrish hitting for boone was walked and bruce sutter entered larry bowa grounded into a double play but ed delahanty walked as a pinch hitter desiring a strikeout since ashburn was likely to attempt a bunt hit with the quick trillo pinch running at third chance brought in lee smith who induced a pop up to the catcher from the speedy centerfielder ending the inning the cubs took the win moving a game behind the phillies steve carlton was called upon to battle finger brown saturday to get another righthander in the lineup ron santo moved to first and bill madlock played third unfortunately brown allowed six doubles and the cub bullpen was worn down even more as the cubs tried to maintain a lead against lefty madlock batting sixth had knocked two doubles of his own driving home four runs gabby hartnett hit two home runs and cuyler added another and the score was cubs after six innings the phillie bullpen had more troubles in the bottom of the eighth as the cubs grabbed more runs to ice an triumph sunday s twin bill saw cool papa bell gather seven straight hits at one point including a rare outside the park home run in the second game off robin roberts grover alexander of the phils took the first contest but the cubs captured the second one with waddell gaining the win bruce sutter tossed two innings for the save though he allowed one run in the eighth the cardinals stood half a game behind these co leaders and would conclude their series with the expos on monday montreal at st louis august way tie for st dennis martinez is on a roll and he continued it versus john tudor friday the expos have a wide variety of hitters and while they aren t among the all time greats they are getting the job done after winning their first first two games they suddenly found themselves only games out of first in this wacky season martinez triumphed on friday and williams outdueled dizzy dean saturday however the cardinals refused to give up winning on sunday the cards captured monday s game too as steve carlton outdueled steve rogers we re really good against ground ball pitchers because of our team speed remarked lou brock i don t see why we can t win this division the phillies and cubs may have some reasons for them two thirds of the way through the season there is a way tie for first new york at pittsburgh august straight wins for bucs now back but in th when your team is in a slump like we are the worst thing is to play in a pitcher s park like this spoke gil hodges before the series keith hernandez added that their defense takes away quite a few runs per year and it must be giving them an extra wins the pirates have made only errors all season ahead of the second place dodgers error totals tend to be around for the best defensive all time teams rube foster defeated sid fernandez friday and candelaria outshone seaver saturday in a game featuring some outstanding defense when nolan ryan and two relivers hit the mets in another win sunday the pirates could once again look forward to a victory getting them back to the mark they had been unable to several times in the past month bert blyleven met dwight gooden in the afternoon game both pitchers possessed fantastic stuff and the only runs scored through eight innings were on home runs a solo shot by rusty staub of the mets and a two run blast by ralph kiner for the pirates the mets darryl strawberry singled home a run in the top of the ninth off jesse orosco working his second inning after mookie wilson pinch ran for gary carter at second with one out and a runner on first lee mazilli was sent in to pinch hit the pirates countered with kent tekulve placing him in the fifth spot in the order and putting barry bonds in left field as the ninth place hitter tekulve induced a groundout forcing strawberry at second he slid hard into honus wagner preventing the pirates from turning their fifth double play of the afternoon tekulve allowed a hit but clemente threw mazilli out at third from near the right field line ending the inning tug mcgraw relieved randy myers who entered to pitch the eighth and got one out before bonds launched a rocket to deep center running through the stop sign at third to score an inside the park homer to win the pirates had scored an improbable straight wins and had moved to within games of first place with seven weeks to go san francisco at boswaukta august another sunday doubleheader appeared on the schedule as the giants managed to close the gap on the other teams thanks to some starting pitching that just wouldn t tire in fact reported manager john mcgraw once this rough part of the schedule is over maybe as early as this coming week we may shift to a man rotation again for a little while juan marichal continued his hot pitching friday beating lew burdette and the braves willie mays had all four r b i s on hits rick reuschel faced joe niekro saturday in a slugfest the braves park had been a homer haven but this took the cake as the giants won a seesaw affair willie mays had three homers willie mccovey eddie matthews and don baylor had two and hank aaron ernie lombardi biz mackey and mel ott had one each the braves had collected home runs going into sunday s doubleheader putting them on a pace for which would be short of the national league record they were still a tad behind the yankees pace they had allowed over though vida blue actually got the win after retiring batters in the fifth he allowed only a run in the sixth but faltered in the seventh joe mcginnity earned the save in the doubleheader the braves hoyt wilhelm failed to hold a lead in the first game but hank aaron homered off bill foster in the eighth as the braves won the giants took the second game however by a score the homer by aaron was a magical by the braves however they fell to three game below making a comeback extremely unlikely san diego at cincinnati aug randy jones faced ewell blackwell in the first of this game series and the padres felt rather good with don mattingly straining his back in the last cleveland game the trade looked even better mcgriff s batting average was even rising of course the bench was very poor and joe gordon was only adequate in the outfield but these were minor problems since the pitching was holding up jones pitched a good game friday and won mcgriff launched two home runs mel harder earned a win with the help of mark davis and ray narleski saturday was the final score tom candiotti battled satchel paige to a tie through eight innings before departing the game was scoreless for more innings until the thirteenth paige had departed after and john franco hurled a scoreless inning tom browning was working his second scoreless inning when dave winfield doubled with one out and joe gordon was pitched around thurm munson doubled both runners home and the padres gamed a win the three game sweep had pulled the giants into a tie with the reds though the reds denied it the highly emotional series with the dodgers may have taken too much out of them brookangeles at houston august another series capped off by a weekend doubleheader took place in the wide open plains of the astrodome the astros sent joe niekro to the hill in the first game opposite don drysdale normally drysdale remarked i would be challenging hitter by being ready to throw at them i can t afford to with this team though we have to get our own runners going we can t afford to let the astros beat us he then winked and said well maybe davis will get decked once the fact that glenn davis leads the team in homers with six is primarily why he would be decked but it should be understood that his current pace would give him nine for the season the hitting on this team is a little better but the power is all doubles and triples still carl furillo is the main reason no astro home runs were hit over the weekend as he threw two runners out trying for inside the park homers for those unaware of the nastness of the astros park they have a foot high gray wall all around the outfield balls must be hit into the seats to be home runs the foul poles are feet from home plate but the alleys are feet away with center field at feet it s as if some three year old threw a tantrum and told his playmates if i can t hit home runs nobody will hit home runs remarked roy campanella the dodgers stole five bases friday but the astros decided to revitalize the baltimore chopping that had failed weeks before for tonight anyway davis jim wynn and jose cruz did not have to mess with their swings according to the manager after poles and willie wells reached base via the baltimore chop drysdale decked jose cruz with a pitch he responded with a two run double but wynn playing first for davis popped up and the astros didn t score any more in that inning they did score in the fourth to erase a deficit and the astros wound up winning they threatened to do even better the next game as tommy john would be their opponent walt alston met privately with the starters at a m before the game i think i know how we can beat the baltimore chop he explained how can we do that pee wee reese wondered they re going to be beating the ball down so we ve got to be ready to throw on the run steve will start at first to dig balls out of the dirt but i want all of you to practice your barehanded picks and throws we ll go with a shallow infield almost the whole time the plan almost worked mike scott allowed only two runs through eight innings but the astros got three two of them scored when bill doran pushed a bunt into the outfield in the fourth with runners on second and third astros was the final with dave smith earning another save the dodgers scored a victory in the first game of the twin bill sunday as nolan ryan walked five three of whom scored in a dodger win fernando valenzuela lost the second game to don sutton however as the dodgers thirteen stolen bases in the series proved to not be enough we re mostly a power team remarked ron cey jackie and when he plays maury wills are our only real speed demons though a couple other plays can do it now and then we re sunk in a place like the astrodome i guess that s why they re so successful there indeed it seems that basestealing teams give them the most trouble in the dome the stros swiped bases in attempts giving them on the season standings after these weekend series a l east team w l gb new york cleveland detroit boston baltimore toronto washington a l west oaksaselphia minnesota chicago kansas city california milwaukee seattle n l east chicago philadelphia st louis pittsburgh montreal new york n l west brookangeles cincinnati san francisco boswaukta houston san diego doug fowler dxf po cwru edu me age now mommys and daddys other ever wonder if after casey relatives have to give lots of hugs love missed the rd strike in the poem support cause heaven is just a great he ran to first and made it big hug that lasts forever and ever
rec.sport.baseball	bill james player rating book dave this has never happened to me before kirsch writes correction nied was the only player identified in this book as a grade a prospect who was exposed to the draft according to bill james in the stop the presses section preceding his player evaluations he valued nied at and said that nied s value does not increase significantly as a result of his selection although he did catch a break getting away from the strongest rotation in baseball i thought bill james latest book completely and totally sucked i bought it but will not purchase anything of his ever again without thoroughly looking at it first what tripe the book is inconsistent and filled with selective analysis james claims to be looking forward and then makes some absolutely bizarre statements of value not only that but i got the impression he probably glanced at the book for about an hour before he put his name on it to say i was disappointed is a grand understatement gary huckabay kevin kerr the al feldstein of the mid s a living argument for if there s anything we love more than a huge existence of parallel sig it s someone quoting lines to add universes or new ones and consecutive posts too
rec.sport.baseball	dodgers newsletter could somebody please tell me if there is a dodgers newsletter on the net and if so how to subscribe thanks joel
rec.sport.baseball	marlins win marlins win i only caught the tail end of this one on espn does anyone have a report look at all that teal bleah david j dwarner journalism indiana edu blue riddle productions it s on the rap is an art ep is coming out on tape this time for real e mail me for the
rec.sport.baseball	re no joke rockies have attendance record in article apr dvorak amd com twhite mozart amd com tom white writes the highest single game attendance was game of the world series october at the la coliseum white sox over dodgers gate officially largest regular season game again in la for the first game in the city of angels opening day april home opener anyway the rockies might really nail the record the record attendance for a doubleheader is larger but since dh s are all but nonexistent nowadays why bother listing it wasn t there an new york at cleveland game in the late s jhon rickert rickert nextwork rose hulman edu prediction for marlins wins rockies wins
rec.sport.baseball	re tickets etc let s look at the effects of inflation on s superstars salaries i read once that the babe made one year and that was about as good as it got for him let s assume he made that in i m not sure of the figures but i know i m in the ballpark pun intended today assuming a yearly inflation rate which is an understatement if not accurate his measly salary would be worth fv x x just over assuming inflation is average of around fv x almost i didn t crunch these numbers beforehand these numbers might lead one to believe that today s players are slightly overpaid the babe appears to have made then what today s average to above average players make now perfectly accurate salary year of salary and average inflation rate would make this analysis more accurate but i don t think i m off by much chop chop michael mule michael andre mule georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism gt e internet gt e prism gatech edu
rec.sport.baseball	re scott erickson in article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes path news cis umn edu umn edu news feed peachnet edu gatech concert duke news duke edu bchm biochem duke edu from fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush newsgroups rec sport baseball subject scott erickson message id news duke edu date apr gmt sender news news duke edu organization biochemistry lines nntp posting host bruchner biochem duke edu usa today reports that he may be going on the dl arm pains of an unspecified nature further news would be appreciated eric roush fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu i am a marxist of the groucho sort grafitti paris tanstaafl although the internet comes close erickson did go on the day dl with a pulled muscle in his left side near rib cage he is on until no news as to who the twins will bring up kevin hansen mn twin family study university of minnesota khansen staff tc umn edu contact university of minnesota women s basketball theory guides experiment decides izaak m kolthoff
rec.sport.baseball	re espn tbs games in article apr lafibm lafayette edu vb lafibm lafayette edu vb writes does anyone know where i can get a list of nationally televised games such as espn and tbs i live on the east coast and i d like to catch as many giants games as i possibly can this list is published every week in baseball weekly brian curran mead data central brian meaddata com that was not swimming that was bathing a german reporter after watching olympic superstar swimmer mark spitz get badly beaten during a comeback race
rec.sport.baseball	re finnally the phils have support in article c x xa ew news udel edu philly brahms udel edu robert c hite writes in article fjqpau wblm z r andrew cmu edu anuj gupta ag i andrew cmu edu writes everytime i have written on the net about the possibility of a successfuls season by the philadelphia phillies i have gotten ripped from everybody from pittsburgh to calcutta but if all the ignoramouses care to look at this week s baseball weekly they will see that i m not the only one who considers then as division winners the rest of the most respected baseball writers in the country do as well and these guys certainly know what they re talking about every bozo from pittsburgh to calcutta will just have to sit up and take notice this phils team in an offensive juggernaut which is going to score a lot of runs and put up a ton of hits on the scoreboard you people out there are going to be sick of seeing phillies scattered all over every offensive league leaders category in the newspaper these guys hit through spring training well before getting no hit yesterday but they had a plane to catch minutes after the game ended so they re minds weren t in it up to this point i really thought this had been written by a pro sdcn anti mediot poster blessed with a certain talent for sarcasm and biting remarks somebody like me for instance the lurid overstatements were obviously intended to humiliate the original poster now on top of the great offense they have a slightly above average pitching staff which has a lot of youth and promise if the pitchers do their part and mitch keeps blown saves to a minimum look for another pennant out in left field at the vet robert c hite p s michael jack schmidt for commissioner but then the scales were lifted from my eyes looks like robert is really being serious oh well i compare the performance of the phillies with the edition which had outstanding run producers at every position except ss yet finished at a frustrating sub level the folks didn t ever amount to anything and neither will the squad imho any other parallels with previous years teams for this year s editions in the style of braves orioles greg mockingbird franklin interracial mixing encompasses a lot lot more f ccit arizona edu than mingling between g races robohen things one wishes to see the moon flowers the face of a dear one well performed no the furnishings of a tea cottage the real thoughts of one s lover and her letter all famous places
rec.sport.baseball	with a surge in the last two weeks ladies and gentlemen boys and girls lend me your ears for but a moment the national legue eastern division champions will be the philadelphia phillies i one hundred and ten percent guarantee chamberlain hollins dykstra incaviglia jackson williams daulton greene kruk mulholland rivera thompson duncan watch us soar in
rec.sport.baseball	quick way to tell if your local beat writer is dumb jayson stark i trhink that s him fits perfectly in this category anyone who writes dean palmer has homers at this pace he ll have home runs should be shot if at the end of april he has and anyone writes at this pace he ll have homers they shouldbe shot too bob gaj
rec.sport.baseball	re mike francesa s predictions hmm i thought francesca s predictions always hovered at or below especially in the nfl not counting college football bowl day he s a nice analyst for explaining past tense and for mapping out what plays teams might do but for predicting the future he only looks good whne compared to russo bob gaj
rec.sport.baseball	re finnally the phils have support in article c yxmj ble news udel edu philly bach udel edu robert c hite writes most of tirade deleted i have an editor and know how to use it okay we ve been conservative and added about wins so far now we re adding about more wins thanks to the expansion teams okay thats wins lesse dipshit math genuious hmmm i think thats good enough to win the worse division in baseball next time before you say something foolish get a clue first either this is an example of great sarcasm or i m really really worried dave hung like a jim acker slider kirsch blue jays do it again in kirsch staff tc umn edu new quotes out of context not to beat a dead horse but it s been a couple o weeks this disappoints me punishments discharges jackhammering stephen lawrence
rec.sport.baseball	re young catchers in article blue cis pitt edu genetic pitt edu david m tate writes mss netcom com mark singer said i meant that one should not let the exception make the rule it s not an exception good players come up young most players who come up young will be good this has always been the rule are most players who come up young always good when they re young or later worse it s not a shift this is the way it has always been several detailed studies of this have been done and they ve all shown that players aren t coming up any younger or older than in the past and they aren t playing any more or less in the minors than they used to the only thing that shifts is our memories of the good old days damn i was afraid you would say that but all after the fact which makes it not applicable to the current discussion which is about how you decide whether to play the rookie who hasn t established himself in the majors over the mediocre veteran the padres played santiago that year because they clearly had nobody else worth playing well perhaps if the braves had no one else worth playing this year it would be lopez in there but they do have others worth playing at least in their opinion and i happen to agree both of these young men were highly touted defensive catchers expected to be among the best ever in baseball not by rec sport baseball consensus that may sound like an incredibly arrogant comment but i ve found that the sdcn consensus when one exists is right far more often than the media consensus or the opinions of baseball people affiliated with mlb i can believe that i m a newbie here so i ll take your word but alomar is a fine defensive catcher which was my statement above that is a solid reason for bringing him up at a tender age as long as they feel he can also hit a bit lopez does not have such a consensus about his defensive prowess and imho that is enough to give him that dreaded seasoning i don t know who knows i suppose the same people or similar who know he will be better than some other catcher these are of course just differing opinions i read that his arm is not that strong i suppose somewhere there is some measurement of sb ratios and that he is still learning to call a game that latter skill may be difficult to project on someone without an intimate knowledge of his performance but it is a tangible skill i disagree in that i don t think it is a tangible skill any more than leadership is i don t deny that it is a real skill and that some catchers may be much better than others at it but i really don t see any way that we could ever know who they are nichols s law of catcher defense is eerily accurate far too often for me to take defensive assessments of catchers very seriously sorry new don t know nichols law don t believe in catchers era but i am interested in pitchers eras with different catchers any info on that absolutely the evidence is piling up year after year the only other alternative is that the braves really don t know that their young players are on average better than their current starters i m not ruling out that kind of gross incompetence but i think the salary schedule explanation is more charitable in other words we know more than they do so the only logic behind a different decision than we would make must be financial i presume we feel this way about other franchises than atlanta no consider we know that the braves are about the strongest team in baseball right now even with olson and lemke and nixon and bream in the lineup they have as good a chance of repeating as champs this year as any team ever has it actually makes some sense to say rather than making our team marginally better this year by bringing up the young studs and dumping the elderly let s go ahead and compete this year with what we have and then bring up the studs only as we have to so that we ll still have them under reserve three years from now and beyond when the current team will be collecting pensions is it fair to the young players no does it make organizational sense i think it does well if it does make organizational sense one can hardly fault them for their decisions i mean please don t tell me how to run my business especially when i m being successful c i could make it or wins if you let me bring up lopez s listen bobby i d like to but the way i see it if he hits the big club this year we ll be paying mega arbitration bucks down the road in a couple of years and there s no way i want to do that and continues with we can win without him and then keep winning next year with him how s that i m sure you could be right you could also be smoking some illegal substance hey that s a joke don t get offended please hey i d love to be wrong about this if you think it s unlikely i d love to know why don t cite anybody s innate ethical rectitude though unless you know them personally well i can t cite anyone s ethical rectitude because i don t know what it means but again if it makes organizational sense then so be it baseball is a business and if there is a solid business reason for keeping lopez on the farm then that s what the braves should do i happen to believe that it s a baseball decision while you from your armchair may disagee i don t i think there is a lot of evidence to suggest the decision they made i predicted it among large guffaws from several at the start of spring training i think it is a very normal decision to have made it is certainly more reversible than to have started lopez in the bigs and have released one of their catchers sure it may be conservative it may also be logical i don t know what ethics have to do with it seems like pretty good common sense to me the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	re nl east champion phillies robert c hite writes here are the projected lineups benches rotation and bullpen for the national league east champion philadelphia phillies i think the only phillies in effect here are philly blunts of course if this all becomes true i ll be the first to smoke one myself david j dwarner journalism indiana edu blue riddle productions it s on the rap is an art ep is coming out on tape this time for real e mail me for the
rec.sport.baseball	re mike francesa s predictions in article apr porthos cc bellcore com dick herahera cc bellcore com vaughn richard writes in article apr ulkyvx louisville edu pjtier ulkyvx louisville edu writes in article apr porthos cc bellcore com dick herahera cc bellcore com vaughn richard writes mike francesa mentioned his baseball picks in passing on the radio yesterday being that this is francesa talkin the opinions are well worth consideration indeed after all he was the wizard foresaw the year of the big east in the ncaa tournament unfortunatly none of those teams made it into the sweet sixteen much less new orleans neither did he overall mike francesa has an outstanding prediction record overall how do you figure ignore him at your own peril so far my radio hasn t exploded from not being tuned to roger
rec.sport.baseball	a move we won t see was why the redflops can but won t win stwombly cs ulowell edu steve twombly writes mo vaughn can hit in the spring b mo vaughn can only hit during the season excellent point i hope to god that ted simmons doesn t get the weird idea of trading for the guy and if he does he had better not include jeff king in the deal oh god what if he traded zane smith and jeff king for vaughn and greg blosser it would be worse than the nichols curse hmm i guess that doesn t sound sincere enough oh well at least i tried jking
rec.sport.baseball	re my belated predictions nl mss netcom com mark singer writes in article apr pilot njin net gajarsky pilot njin net bob gajarsky hobokenite writes javier lopez is a better catcher than greg olson but has there ever in the history of baseball been a year old or younger rookie catcher who compared favorably among all league catchers in terms of defense and brought a bat wasn t it sandy alomar who was supposed to be that good in his rookie year not wasn t it benito santiago who was supposed to be that good in his rookie year not hrm sandy alomar year old rookie games threw out a few baserunners benito santiago year old rookie games he threw out a few baserunners too ivan rodriguez year old rookies games didn t exactly suck behind the plate i can continue this thread with the others mentioned but you get the point you and others seem to be so quick to dismiss the seasoned veterans in favor of the hot young rookies perhaps just perhaps the management team of the pennant winning braves knows something more than you do and perhaps what they know is that very very few and year old rookies come up to the majors and make an impact true which only makes it more important to realize when you have one of the few lopez season last year adjusted to major league equivalencies was hrs how bad does he have to be behind the plate for that to not be better than olson s mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com i would not admire hitting against ryne duren because if he ever hit you in the head you might be in the past tense casey stengel
rec.sport.baseball	re espn and expansion in article c u c ucdavis edu itlm dale ucdavis edu donnie trump writes i was watching peter gammons on espn last night and he s got me a little confused while talking about expansion he started mentioning people who might benefit from the fringe players they ll be facing mcgriff hitting home runs sheffield getting rbi s and glavine winning games this was of course all in reference to what happened the other times that baseball has expanded early s late s late s what really confused me though was the mention of al players who would do well next year specifically roger clemens winning games and the likes of mcgwire and gonzalez hitting home runs my question is how in the hell will the rockies marlins help the al the last time i looked there wasn t a lot of talent jumping leagues did i miss something dennis cleary dfcleary ucdavis edu i wondered the same thing when he first mentioned it i thought he was just making a mistake but then he said it over and over and then in the examples from other years he gave stats for players from both leagues even when only one league expanded so since stats never lie i guess there is an effect on both leagues because the expansion draft takes talent from both leagues equally making every team in both leagues dilute their major league talent by calling up players that normally they would not have had there not been expansion make sense
rec.sport.baseball	rockies opening day cast here is the colorado rockies openning day cast pitchers scott aldred l mlb totals games era saves andy ashby r games era saves willie blair r games era saves butch henry l games era saves darren holmes r games era saves david neid r games era saves jeff parrett r games era saves steve reed r games era saves bruce ruffin l games era saves bryn smith r games era saves gary wayne l games era saves the rest joe girardi c games hr rbi sb danny sheaffer c games hr rbi sb freddie benavides ss games hr rbi sb vinny castilla ss games hr rbi sb andres galarraga b games hr rbi sb charlie hayes b games hr rbi sb jim tatum b games hr rbi sb eric young b games hr rbi sb dante bichette of games hr rbi sb daryl boston of games hr rbi sb jerald clark of games hr rbi sb alex cole of games hr rbi sb gerald young of games hr rbi sb dale murphy of seasons hr rbi
rec.sport.baseball	rockies and rangers fans please help me greetings baseballers i have a choice of two more or less identical conferences to attend one in denver and one in dallas both may could some kind rockies or rangers they do play in the dallas area right fans please let me know if there are home dates for that week i d love to catch a game thanks shawn
rec.sport.baseball	opening day of the o s just lost to the rangers a few minutes ago i was not too happy about the pitching of rick sutcliffe runs in innings in the this puts me in remembering the o s season after we didn t do much over winter and we wound up in th now i know that mussina mcdonald and rhodes are better pitching prospects than ballard and milacki but are any other oriole fans scared out there admiral steve c liu p s other scores as of now cincy over montreal i think florida is leading la in the th braves vs cubs in the th futility of cubs batting haunting them yanks beat the tribe i believe admiral steve c liu internet address admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu commander in chief of the security division of the pi club earth chapter president of the earth chapter of the pi club founded april world champions baltimore orioles why not series in the yards stanley cup champions washington capitals committee for the liberation and intergration of terrifying organisms and their rehabilitation into society the only problem is that the abbreviation is clitoris from the polymorph episode of red dwarf the bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed this sig has been brought to you by frungy the sport of kings my god man drilling holes through his head is not the answer dr mccoy you know susanna hoffs has a really nice ass comment by m flanagan the pi club creating the largest signatures for the past nine months
rec.sport.baseball	re wohlers to minors in article hydra gatech edu ccastmm prism gatech edu mike marler writes in apr rigel econ uga edu shannonr moe coe uga edu shannon reeves cntr for ed tech writes at times it seems as if no others in the bullpen are used by cox for middle relief marvin only pitched innings this spring he is supposed to be over his surgery and i am wondering if cox is still trying to decide who to use as middle relief and thinks that marvin might be his better choice early in the season i would immediately give mcmchael many chances to pitch after spring and then use bedrock and freeman after that i am wondering how he intends to use howell whatever happened to senior smoke do you mean juan berenguer he was traded for mark davis in the middle of last season exchanged one stiff for another as berenguer hadn t come back from his injury in i think he s retired now anyhow as middle relief marvin ain t that bad he at least can pitch a couple of innings or do mop up work i don t know much about mcmichael was he the mexican league guy but everybody else in the pen is a inning man except maybe mercker eric roush fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu i am a marxist of the groucho sort grafitti paris tanstaafl although the internet comes close
rec.sport.baseball	re minnesota pitching date mon apr from karim edvard ahmed ka k andrew cmu edu since i haven t been able to keep up with baseball much this season i have a few questions about my favorite team the minnesota twins how good does their rotation look the last i heard the order is tapani erikson mahomes banks and some guy i ve never heard of sounds pretty pathetic to me well maybe it will be banks is a year old prospect who hasn t matured as quickly as they would have liked mahomes is a year old who is very highly touted tapani and erickson are also young and have looked very good this spring the last spot was between jim deshaies formerly of houston and s d and mike trombley deshaies hasn t looked very good this spring so i believe that the spot has gone to trombley although they hadn t wanted starters this unproven i personally believe very highly in mahomes and trombley who is playing short and third well scott leius is the shortstop he played mostly b last year but was a ss in the minors and moved back after gagne left to k c b is split maybe between pagliarulo who has had a great spring and terry jorgenson a good looking kid who has languished in portland for years i m not sure how the time will be divided but they seem to be happy with what they have here i like jorgenson but i fear they might give too much time to pags how s winfield doing sorry can t help you here dennis
rec.sport.baseball	re my belated predictions nl well as long as folks are sharing their esteemed wisdom li l karnak sez al west al east nl west nl east chicago toronto atlanta st louis texas new york cincinnati montreal minnesota baltimore houston new york oakland boston los angeles philadelphia seattle detroit san diego pittsburgh kansas city milwaukee san fran chicago california cleveland colorado florida details to follow later pick it apart as you like also if anyone is still taking entries for prediction pools contests could you snag mine and add it to the list thanks i m just glad it s opening day makes up a little bit for the gloom doom weather patterns here lundy dave hung like a jim acker slider kirsch blue jays do it again in kirsch staff tc umn edu new quotes out of context not to beat a dead horse but it s been a couple o weeks this disappoints me punishments discharges jackhammering stephen lawrence
rec.sport.baseball	re with a surge in the last two weeks watch us soar in shouldn t that be watch us stoned in or maybe watch us suck in or even watch us sore in matt montgomery no really i like the phillies
rec.sport.baseball	where can i find baseball statistics i am interested in uncovering statistics on boston red sox players from march present i want to look at changes in batting average hits multi hit games runs stolen bases and on base during every game where can i find this information do any sports magazines log this info or do i have to go directly to the ball club thanks for the info kip
rec.sport.baseball	grateful dead being a baseball fan and a fan of the above mentioned band i was wondering if anyone could clue me in on whether the dead or members of sang the national anthem at todays giant opener i would imagine that it is a bit too early for anyone to know but an answer would be greatly appreciated curious robert robert margesson umaine hockey park st c black bears orono me ncaa champs
rec.sport.baseball	g williams sent down yanks win al east well it really isn t this cut and dry but as a jay fan the thing i feared worst has happened the yanks sent down williams g and are going to start williams b in cf i also believe they kept wickman and millitello in their rotation which is much nicer than that kaminiecki and mike witt combo i thought they d throw out their to the slaughterhouse because of their experience granted witt might be good but i think that they used rationale to keep the youngsters up and not given the job to witt because he was a good pitcher and has experience the yanks are showing that they are taking positive strides forwards the jays with the loss of dave stewart are looking at gigantic holes in their pitching staff the orioles should also be there in the end gord niguma to salvage the season let jj olerud win mvp
rec.sport.baseball	re bo was a good player you shorts plus idiots in article apr otago ac nz guilford otago ac nz writes in article apr princeton edu roger crux princeton edu roger lustig writes in article apr otago ac nz guilford otago ac nz writes bo jackson kcr kcr kcr cws maj maj this is what jackson looked like in with everything converted to a neutral park on the basis of run production his equivalent average started at in was up to in and in so let us say he had established in his last two seasons a level of play that is good very good in fact but it probably doesn t make the top ten in the league the th best eqa in the al in was dave winfield s thomas was first at first in the nl was bonds an incroyable tenth was bip roberts but is better than any season in the past five years by joe carter it is about what mattingly had in what felix jose had the last two years just ahead of time raines five year average better than ryan klesko s mles he got more attention from the media than was warranted from his baseball playing though his hype was a lot better than his hitting that is the basis for the net comments about him being overrated the media would have you beleive he was a great hitter i think he was a good maybe very good hitter he was imo something like the th best hitter in the majors clay d
rec.sport.baseball	re young catchers in article mssc dfw u netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes at age alomar had a brilliant rookie year true he was limited by injuries in his sophomore season but his numbers both that yaer and the year following were quite mediocre this season the same bill james projects a ba of ops of the same bill james why do you say that it sounds like you re suggesting bill james had something to do with overhyping the kid to death au contraire he was fairly critical of him after his roy campaign noting that he wasn t all world as a catcher or a hitter he called him basically average when everyone else in the media was predicting the next johnny bench or roy campanella both of these young men were highly touted defensive catchers expected to be among the best ever in baseball the reports i read indicate that lopez is very ordinary defensively which reports are those the dodgers options are parrish and hernandez and now only carlos piazza is as long as he continues with his very hot bat they will keep him in the lineup because they need the offensive production when he cools off look for the much better defensive catcher hernandez only to play more i like hernandez a lot but if piazza can catch the ball you ve gotta play him imho he s a much better hitter although hernandez isn t a bad hitter right now it sounds like piazza will catch most of the time and hernandez will be candiotti s caddy since he can catch the knuckler as long as they play up to their abilities the dodgers could have a very good catching tandem the braves options are berryhill and olson i agree that olson is nothing special but i do think berryhill is better than many people on rsb believe but both the braves catchers are very good defensively calling a game blocking the plate throwing and although they are somewhat weak offenivsively they play on a team that is not so much in need of another big bat i think both are overrated defensively see nichols law of catcher defense but that s something that s difficult to prove or disprove from your viewpoint or mine about the only tangible thing we can look at is opponent s sb and that s clouded by how well your pitchers hold runners catchers era is a possibility but it s subject to way too many biases as for them playing on a team that is not so much in need of another big bat i disagree here too about the only chink in the braves armor is that they re weak offensively at several positions cf c b ss if belliard plays b unless bream and hunter form another super platoon and very weak defensively if blauser plays i d like to see the braves give at least one of mel nieves javy lopez or chipper jones a shot but much like the talent rich jays of recent years they ll be conservative and stick with what they have i m not saying that s wrong just conservative dave hung like a jim acker slider kirsch blue jays do it again in kirsch staff tc umn edu new quotes out of context not to beat a dead horse but it s been a couple o weeks this disappoints me punishments discharges jackhammering stephen lawrence
rec.sport.baseball	re quick way to tell if your local beat writer is dumb in article apr pilot njin net gajarsky pilot njin net bob gajarsky hobokenite writes jayson stark i think that s him fits perfectly in this category could be there is a jayson stark that writes weekly for some press syndicate and also for baseball america anyone who writes dean palmer has homers at this pace he ll have home runs should be shot if at the end of april he has and anyone writes at this pace he ll have homers they shouldbe shot too stark has done this sort of thing but he has never been serious about it he usually states that this sort of projection is useless at the top of such columns i think he did it one season and some manager was projected to be thrown out of games and some hitter could expect to be plunked times stark does some really funny stuff his weekly baseball reviews are good collections of strange things that happened during the previous week he also regularly prints kinerisms lance cr o h o smith moments after being named manager for the lsmith cs umn edu oakland a s mr peanut was crushed by a special limited edition red headed loner wielding an aluminum bat r s bb signature murder at the mausoleum
rec.sport.baseball	re young catchers in article apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward theodorus redsox fannus fischer writes sorry this doesn t fly the good players have always been ready for the majors early how many hofers were not contributing major leaguers by the time they were that brings up an interesting point anyone else catch espn s piece about prospects and the relationship between age career length mvps and hall of fame members it was part of their preseason special basically they looked at players that had amassed plate appearances or abs by the time they were and noticed some interesting things for starters they found out such players comprised the majority of mvps in the history of the game they also found out such players represented the majority of the players in the hall of fame the kicker though was that they actually did some number crunching and found that such players careers lasted much longer than the careers of players not in that group they also found that these players produced at both a greater level of performance and produced over twice the raw totals hrs etc of the other players the first group outhit the second something like to in raw ba and blew away the second group in such categories as hrs bs rbis etc it was the most impressive thing i ve seen on espn in recent memory i guess ray knight makes his rebuttal tonight dave hung like a jim acker slider kirsch blue jays do it again in kirsch staff tc umn edu new quotes out of context not to beat a dead horse but it s been a couple o weeks this disappoints me punishments discharges jackhammering stephen lawrence
rec.sport.baseball	red sox win st bosox royals wp clemens lp appier key hit mike greenwell s out tripple with bases loaded
rec.sport.baseball	re quick way to tell if your local beat writer is dumb bob gajarsky hobokenite writes jayson stark i trhink that s him fits perfectly in this category anyone who writes dean palmer has homers at this pace he ll have home runs should be shot bob i think that stark does this sort of thing as a joke not as a serious prediction i don t really see why we should shoot him for that the guys who ought to be shot are the ones who keep claiming how great the royals chances are in the al west since all evidence indicates that they aren t joking and actually believe it bob davis rbd thor ece uc edu
rec.sport.baseball	re young catchers in article c wo kfy news cis umn edu kirsch staff tc umn edu dave almost cursed the jays kirsch writes that brings up an interesting point anyone else catch espn s piece about prospects and the relationship between age career length mvps and hall of fame members it was part of their preseason special wow espn can repeat eleven year old bill james research literally check the abstract it was the most impressive thing i ve seen on espn in recent memory perhaps in they ll be as reliable as an average sdcn i guess ray knight makes his rebuttal tonight oops maybe not ted frank however teel should have mentioned that though thf kimbark uchicago edu his advice is legally sound if you follow it the u of c law school you will probably wind up in jail standard disclaimers james donald in misc legal
rec.sport.baseball	re finnally the phils have support in article c yxmj ble news udel edu philly bach udel edu robert c hite writes in article apr ulkyvx louisville edu pjtier ulkyvx louisville edu writes everytime i have written on the net about the possibility of a successfuls season by the philadelphia phillies i have gotten ripped from everybody from pittsburgh to calcutta but if all the ignoramouses care to look at this week s baseball weekly they will see that i m not the only one who considers then as division winners the rest of the most respected baseball writers in the country do as well and what was the reasoning of this genius writer that even though their pitching is at best sound they will win on the strength of their offense lesse offense offense thompson incaviglia offense wins division winners at least wins so wins wins thompson incaviglia therefore wins thompson incaviglia what did you learn in school today if you take a math course and your teacher turns out to be rob rains run don t walk to drop add p tierney you obviously don t know what the hell you re talking about no thompson and incaviglia don t equal wins but i ll take the two of them over stan javier and ruben amaro hr ab hr ab i d say this improvement should equate to or wins at least then i ll take lenny dykstra who played games last year and project his numbers hits b s hr rbi sb over games thus hits b s hr rbi sb okay now we ll put these numbers in the leadoff hole and thus i have to bump kruk hollins daulton rbi numbers up just a tad now lesse they knocked in and respectively don t you think it s fair to add about or rbi to each they managed to knock in a pretty nice amount of runs with a leadoff hitter okay bozo do you think it s fair to add maybe or more wins now oh and how can i forget wes chamberlain ab s hr rbi even with a month and in aaa and a horrible first half well project that over a full season to get hr and rbi or so is that worth a win or two finally take the worse pitching staff in the nl last year add the worse injury decimation of okay now we add danny jackson some health and a full season for schilling is that worth at least wins okay we ve been conservative and added about wins so far now we re adding about more wins thanks to the expansion teams okay thats wins lesse dipshit math genuious hmmm i think thats good enough to win the worse division in baseball next time before you say something foolish get a clue first actually i was simply relaying the reasoning of this so called genius bw writer i agree the reasoning was foolish next time before you say something foolish be aware what you are responding to btw wins very funny p tierney
rec.sport.baseball	new uniforms usually one or two teams changes their logo or a minor uniform change per season but the past few seasons have been incredible any thoughts on the new old reds uniforms i remember seeing a pete rose rookie card and unless i miss my guess he was wearing the exact same duds the mets how about doc s performance today have reinserted the mets patch on the shoulder and changed the mets insgnia on the front of the jersey to my knowledge it is the first time that has been changed since and it reminds me a little of the dodger logo many teams have opted for a return to a previous style of uniform or at least uniforms that look more traditional phillies reds expos white sox padres etc and the once bright colors have been altered to gray the trend has also seen the newer baseball fields resembling the parks of the early years as opposed to the cookie cutter saucer stadiums construcrted throughout the sixties with salaries now reaching unbelievable highs no one in the comissioner s office and inter league play on the horizon it s nice to see that baseball at least looks like it was meant to be
rec.sport.baseball	re players overpaid ted frank s list of underpaid players was this p juan guzman p mussina p castillo p eldred p rhodes p militello rp rojas rp beck rp melendez rp hernandez rp nied c rodriguez c piazza b thomas b bagwell b knoblauch b barberie b gomez b palmer ss listach ss pena lf gonzalez cf lankford rf r sanders of plantier what do all of these players have in common they do not qualify for arbitration they were never free agents it s called the reserve clause look it up and a year from now we will whine about how several of these guys are way overpaid and getting outrageous raises in arb humbug king sparky banaian no taxes no new taxes kbanaian pitzer claremont edu no old taxes we are taxed dept of economics pitzer college enough rep alan keyes latest gdp forecast please run alan
rec.sport.baseball	vegas odds does anyone have a list of vegas odds for teams making the world series i d appreciate a mailing thanks rickc corp sgi com
rec.sport.baseball	rec sport baseball fantasy april i am participating in an nl league that uses standard rotisserie rules except that the following catagories are used for position players lowest batting average strike outs caught stealing errors for pitchers losses blown saves higest era taters allowed this is the fifth year that i ve participated in this blowtisserie league last year i won the pennant due primarily to the fact that i had terrible pitching i would like to lower my batting average which is rather high because i do have jose offerman who made up for this by helping me lock first place in errors anyway someone offered andres gallaraga for bud black i can afford to give up bud black because i still have kyle abbott however i am afraid of andres actually doing well this season should i make the trade or not your comments will be appreciated warren usui i m one with the universe on a scale from to
rec.sport.baseball	jim lefebvre is an idiot i just wanted to let everyone know that i have lost what little respect i have for jim lefebvre after seeing today s cubs game first of all how could he start maldonado over may after the way may played at the end of last year and the way he tore up the cactus league how could you let him sit the bench not to mention that a right hander maddux started i really blew my top when lefebvre pinch hit for rick wilkins with tommy shields how can you do that just because of the lefty righty thing too much is made of that wilkins is twice the hitter that shields is then the next batter was jose vizcaino one of the weakest hitters i have ever seen and who had looked terrible at bat all day and lefebre let him hit while may still sat the bench i think even arnie harris was stunned by this because he showed may sitting in the dugout while vizcaino was batting face it lefebvre has got to be the worst manager in baseball a dishard cub fan
rec.sport.baseball	re best second baseman thf ellis uchicago edu ted frank writes in article mar sarah albany edu js albnyvms bitnet writes personally i think that alomar is all hype he is producing incredibly now but in the long run he will never put up the numbers that sandberg has for this moment alomar may be the best but overall sandberg wins out by a long shot when sandberg was alomar s age he was putting up seasons with no power alomar s oba is points higher than sandberg s career high alomar s career high in doubles and triples is higher than sandberg s sandberg is still better than alomar but only because alomar hasn t reached his full potential yet alomar s got a year headstart on sandberg he has hits sandberg didn t have hits until he was and is likely to put up better career numbers than sandberg in everything except home runs he ll pass sandberg in stolen bases sometime in sandberg is not particulary known for his stolen bases what competition did alomar have sandberg came in a year after ripken and the same year as boggs gwynn and the other magicians so less attention was given to sandberg alomar is the only one in his class to be worth a mediocre besides the numbers don t count national league pitchers are much better pitchers larry on someone elses account mark horan horan cse unl edu ianr unlvm
rec.sport.baseball	re jim lefebvre is an idiot bjgood leo bsuvc bsu edu writes i just wanted to let everyone know that i have lost what little respect i have for jim lefebvre after seeing today s cubs game first of all how could he etc vizcaino was batting face it lefebvre has got to be the worst manager in baseball a dishard cub fan hey he s the only manager so far to lead the seattle mariners to a winning season out of what fifteen give him some credit for that dave the machman machman u washington edu david c carroll c oo big science hallelujah
rec.sport.baseball	re giants gm quinn is a genius in article c nh et odin corp sgi com luigi sgi com randy palermo writes will clark matt williams robbie thompson rod beck all came up through the giants system geez everyone comes up with clark williams thompson these guys were all up in that s ancient history so in the last years noone right beck doesn t count i said solid years btw manwaring lead the ml last season in throwing out baserunners he is an excellent defensive catcher i agree that his offensive skills are limited but he does seem to be improving on them let s see what he does w o the help of a pitchout every other pitch as i remember even bob brenly had a good throwout percentage under roger craig who loved to sacrifice the count for runners being thrown out of course he suffered from ball strike homers a lot too i am not a big fan of manwaring dave
rec.sport.baseball	re harry and candy but i like the way he butchers andres galarraga s name y all lighten up on harry skip ll be like that in a couple of years it comes out like gahlah rrrraggggah and don t forget his frequent references to the great sf giant star bobby bonds harry s a great personality he s the reason i like cubs broadcasts it s certainly not the quality of the team chop chop michael mule michael andre mule georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism gt e internet gt e prism gatech edu
rec.sport.baseball	a l east is best in baseball is there any doubt that this is true after a few down years the a l east is back to where it was in the early eighties with the emergence of the o s and the yanks it is far and away the best while the n l west has the best team in baseball and the reds aren t bad either they have nothing else the giants astros and padres all have talent they do not have the all arounf teams that are found in the a l east and the dodgers just plain suck as for the rockies who knows the a l east has the defending champs and although they lost a lot to free agency toronto is still one of the best in baseball the orioles have the preseason favorite to win the cy young in mike mussina and you can never forget about ripken the signings of harold baines and harold reynolds don t hurt to much either although i always liked bill ripken while they let a lot go this summer randy milligan joe orsulak bill ripken bob milacki sam horn storm davis and craig lefferts they kept the heart of their team intact my predicted finish baltimore could be a biased opinion ny yankees toronto milwaukee detroit boston cleveland would have been higher if not for the accident go o s
rec.sport.baseball	re my belated predictions nl briefly since i m off to sleep mle s work pretty well for aa nd aaa players players who are and younger will tend to have explosions in their numbers whether mmle s or not in the next years players who are and older at those levels generally have inflated mle s they re about as reliable as having major league stats for a player bob gaj
rec.sport.baseball	re quick way to tell if your local beat writer is dumb ok sorry about that i didn t realise he was being sarcastic about those sort of things but i ll tell you mike lupica daily news usually says some pretty funny things in his shooting from the lip columns bob gaj
rec.sport.baseball	phils are still looking immaculate ladies and gentleman step one was taken on the phils triumphant trip this year tonight yes that was english mulholland s era after tonight s game nice try drabek ninja jew
rec.sport.baseball	quick easy question here s an easy question for someone who knows nothing about baseball what city do the california angels play out of richard j rauser you have no idea what you re doing rauser sfu ca oh don t worry about that we re professional wni outlaws we do this for a living remember no matter where you go there you are dr banzai
rec.sport.baseball	re finnally the phils have support the phillies were picked to be in first someone replied that the people who picked them were the same people who picked the mets last year my reply yeah that may be true but this is the phillies fritz
rec.sport.baseball	re quick way to tell if your local beat writer is dumb in article apr pilot njin net gajarsky pilot njin net bob gajarsky hobokenite writes ok sorry about that i didn t realise he was being sarcastic about those sort of things but i ll tell you mike lupica daily news usually says some pretty funny things in his shooting from the lip columns bob gaj y know if current trends continue the florida marlins will be the first expansion team to go and outscore their opponents by runs ted frank however teel should have mentioned that though thf kimbark uchicago edu his advice is legally sound if you follow it the u of c law school you will probably wind up in jail standard disclaimers james donald in misc legal
rec.sport.baseball	re quick easy question rauser fraser sfu ca richard john rauser writes here s an easy question for someone who knows nothing about baseball what city do the california angels play out of anaheim richard j rauser you have no idea what you re doing rauser sfu ca oh don t worry about that we re professional wni outlaws we do this for a living remember no matter where you go there you are dr banzai
rec.sport.baseball	trivia question ok all you trivia buffs i have a good one for you prior to the foul bunt rule what is the record for the most foul balls by batter during one at bat total pitches who was the batter who was the pitcher same as except after the foul bunt rule associated data would be nice too such as date location teams etc bill wrl pmafire inel gov
rec.sport.baseball	re best second baseman in article pqvusinnmjm crcnis unl edu horan cse unl edu mark horan writes sandberg is not particulary known for his stolen bases what competition did alomar have sandberg came in a year after ripken and the same year as boggs gwynn and the other magicians so less attention was given to sandberg alomar is the only one in his class to be worth a mediocre besides the numbers don t count national league pitchers are much better pitchers you re right thomas gonzalez sheffield and griffey don t even begin to compare with ripken boggs and gwynn so no wonder alomar gets so much attention sandberg got no attention his rookie year because his rookie year was terrible so was his sophomore year national league pitchers are much better pitchers that certainly explains sheffield s hm are you confusing have era s that are lower because they don t face dh s with much better ted frank however teel should have mentioned that though thf kimbark uchicago edu his advice is legally sound if you follow it the u of c law school you will probably wind up in jail standard disclaimers james donald in misc legal
rec.sport.baseball	re espn and expansion in article c u c ucdavis edu itlm dale ucdavis edu donnie trump writes i was watching peter gammons on espn last night and he s got me a little confused while talking about expansion he started mentioning people who might benefit from the fringe players they ll be facing mcgriff hitting home runs sheffield getting rbi s and glavine winning games this was of course all in reference to what happened the other times that baseball has expanded early s late s late s what really confused me though was the mention of al players who would do well next year specifically roger clemens winning games and the likes of mcgwire and gonzalez hitting home runs my question is how in the hell will the rockies marlins help the al the last time i looked there wasn t a lot of talent jumping leagues did i miss something only if you persist in believing that peter gammons is more knowledgable about baseball than the average mailbox okay i m overstating still the man actually had the gall to say that one out of every six pitchers in the nl this year did not pitch in the majors last year huh imo this expansion will not see the explosive jump in offense that the other expansion drafts had since the talent was diluted over both leagues in gammons defense because the talent drain came from the al as well some increase will be seen he also gets credit for mentioning that the jump in offense was due also to the rules changes after the season he s still full of it kurt bose as in daisy not rose kbos carina unm edu if you take out all the f ks this is an page book wally backman leafing though a copy of mets teammate lenny dykstra s autobiography nails
rec.sport.baseball	re bo was a good player you shorts plus idiots in article c m d dv murdoch acc virginia edu drw l delmarva evsc virginia edu david robert walker writes bo jackson kcr kcr kcr cws maj maj this is what jackson looked like in with everything converted to a neutral park on the basis of run production his equivalent average started at in was up to in and in so let us say he had established in his last two seasons a level of play i m not quite sure how these numbers are generated it appears that in a neutral park bo s hr and slugging tend to drop he actually loses two home runs or do they what is equivalent average one thing when looking at bo s stats is that you can see that kc took away some homers normally you expect some would be homers to go for doubles or triples in big parks or to be caught and for that matter you expect lots of doubles and triples anyway but bo despite his speed hit very few doubles and not that many triples so i would expect his value to have risen quite considerably in a neutral park that is good very good in fact but it probably doesn t make the top ten in the league the th best eqa in the al in was dave winfield s thomas was first at first in the nl was bonds an incroyable tenth was bip roberts but is better than any season in the past five years by joe carter it is about what mattingly had in what felix jose had the last two years just ahead of time raines five year average better than ryan klesko s mles felix jose has been a player in a fairly neutral park i would offhand guess the bo at around a player maybe not even close he got more attention from the media than was warranted from his baseball playing though his hype was a lot better than his hitting that is the basis for the net comments about him being overrated the media would have you beleive he was a great hitter i think he was a good maybe very good hitter he was imo something like the th best hitter in the majors i d put him about there too note i hadn t realized the media had hyped him so much i thought he was always viewed by them as a better football player and only so so at baseball he did only have one hr rbi season and kc wasn t winning note i maybe have harped on this a bit in the past but there is a mistake being made by the sdcn s as they are known on this group with respect to players like bo and deion and lofton and perhaps others we find that if you look at a large group of players their past major and minor league numbers will predict their future numbers fairly well their are some caveats the younger they are the less good the prediction the lower the minor league the less good i imagine the more recent the player has left college ball etc now of course this prediction involves quite a bit of error sometimes a player with poor mle s dave justice the ventura becomes a star some hitters develop shane mack brian downing some don t oddibe mcdowell mickey brantley this error involves real things there are real reasons why oddibe didn t hit and shane did it may who knows involve parks and batting coaches and wheaties and injuries and lifting and so on but still you have this big pool of players and things work pretty well one of the reasons for these predictions accuracy is the common background of the players one thing we know about professional baseball players is that all of them or almost all have spent a good deal of time playing ball their backgrounds are similar what hasn t been established is what happens when you encounter a player with a different background is there some reason to believe that a bo or a deion or a lofton or a tony gwynn or an ainge or so on has such a different background that the standard model and standard assumptions fit this person slowly it hasn t been established that you can use mle s with two sport players it hasn t been established that you can t but then statistics is after all an art i personally think otherwise lucid individuals continually make completely nonsensical statements about bo and deion and lofton look at those good but not great minor league numbers they say well what happens if those numbers simply don t mean what they usually mean it might mean that ken lofton suddenly has a better year in houston than tuscon it might mean that deion suddenly has a better half year in atlanta than greenville then again it might not ken and deion might go right back in the tank this year live up to those poor mle s but you guys don t know what s worse you don t know that you don t and you don t know that there are other players you won t know about injuries and lifting and wheaties again you seem to think that the model is perfect and eternal it s not it s got some error oh well bill guilford still thinks hairy butt is truly ugly might be right
rec.sport.baseball	re my belated predictions nl in article mssc zyo jsc netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes in article apr pilot njin net gajarsky pilot njin net bob gajarsky hobokenite writes i ve said the braves would improve by injury as well here s how javier lopez is a better catcher than greg olson ryan klasko is a better firstbaseman than bream chipper jones is a better shortstop than anyone the braves put out there mel nieves is better than nixon sanders that s how it forces them to play the young guys bob gaj i continue to be amazed at these comments while lopez might some day be a better catcher than olson i find it totally amazing for you to suggest that this year old with three seasons of professional baseball is now better than olson a five year mlb veteran who is noted for his ability to call a game and who has a better than average arm oh perhaps you are talking about hitting well sure lopez might hit better perhaps he probably will but has there ever in the history of baseball been a year old or younger rookie catcher who compared favorably among all league catchers in terms of defense and brought a bat wasn t it yes ivan rodriguez last year batted and threw out of the baserunners not too shabby for a rookie from aa years old last year sandy alomar who was supposed to be that good in his rookie year not wasn t it benito santiago who was supposed to be that good in his rookie year not i can continue this thread with the others mentioned but you get the point you and others seem to be so quick to dismiss the seasoned veterans in favor of the hot young rookies perhaps just perhaps the management team of the pennant winning braves knows something more than you do and perhaps what they know is that very very few and year old rookies come up to the majors and make an impact the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com roy f cabaniss wait till tommy meets the lord and western kentucky university finds out that he s wearing pinstripes all opinions contained herein gaylord perry talking about lasorda are all mine own and that s the sin baseball what a way to spend a day
rec.sport.baseball	re jim lefebvre is an idiot i totally agree with each point you made jose viscaino looked like a single a hitter up there who swings on count with maddux pitching and your teams down by a run and you haven t touched the ball all day i also think too much is made of that lefty righty thing watching the cubs games i get the feeling steve stone knows a lot more about what the cubs should be doing than lefebre does harry said it best when he stated after another terrible vizcaino at bat we can t wait til sandberg returns
rec.sport.baseball	re new uniforms in apr virginia edu tek q virginia edu todd karlin writes usually one or two teams changes their logo or a minor uniform change per season but the past few seasons have been incredible any thoughts on the new old reds uniforms i remember seeing a pete rose rookie card and unless i miss my guess he was wearing the exact same duds the mets how about doc s performance today have reinserted the mets patch on the shoulder and changed the mets insgnia on the front of the jersey to my knowledge it is the first time that has been changed since and it reminds me a little of the dodger logo as far as i know toronto pittsburgh and new york nl change their uniforms every year every other year e g new york it will say mets in cursive new york in cursive or new york in all caps minor changes but they do change them often last year i think they had new york in all caps did toronto have blue jays or toronto last year what about pittsburgh many teams have opted for a return to a previous style of uniform or at least uniforms that look more traditional phillies reds expos white sox padres etc and the once bright colors have been altered to gray the trend has also seen the newer baseball fields resembling the parks of the early years as opposed to the cookie cutter saucer stadiums construcrted throughout the sixties i hate the gray they should opt for more color like the white sox i hate white team versus gray team spring training uniforms look much better with salaries now reaching unbelievable highs no one in the comissioner s office and inter league play on the horizon it s nice to see that baseball at least looks like it was meant to be
rec.sport.baseball	re jim lefebvre is an idiot in c uc bl news cso uiuc edu ada uxa cso uiuc edu driftwood writes i totally agree with each point you made jose viscaino looked like a single a hitter up there who swings on count with maddux pitching and your teams down by a run and you haven t touched the ball all day oh this is an easy trivia question the answer is any cub not named sandberg or grace i also think too much is made of that lefty righty thing watching the cubs games i get the feeling steve stone knows a lot more about what the cubs should be doing than lefebre does harry said it best when he stated after another terrible vizcaino at bat we can t wait til sandberg returns david m nieporent only one thing wrong with theory niepornt phoenix is stupid is stupidest theory i ever heard princeton edu baltimore orioles who s the dangerous cult the bds or the batf
rec.sport.baseball	re billy gets cheers in baltimore in article apr jhuvms hcf jhu edu doctor jhuvms hcf jhu edu jason abner miller writes orioles vs texas at camden yards april opening day batting th for texas playing second base billy ripken the hometown crowd gave their favorite ex nd baseman a minute standing ovation as billy wearing flashy shades took the cheers smiling and waving consummate role player in the words of p a caller jon miller tim hulett failed to receive similar cheers when announced mainly because he didn t have the courtesy to show up wasn t hulett injured yesterday after being hit in the face with a ball while running bases i heard something about him recieving stiches and a possible broken nose is he at the park fernando was warmly received good to see that let s see how they feel when he s and with a era i have my doubts about fernando f y i when cal was announced jon miller says it seems like yesterday when this young man began a consecutive game streak time all star time mvp time gold glover our future hall of fame shortsop batting rd cal ripken the standing o lasted about seconds less than billy blargh well when a fan favorite gets dumped he s gonna get an outstanding ovation on his first return let s add up the ovations cal has recieved over the years during the game and compare that to billy btw sutcliffe s getting knocked around pretty good rangers up in the bottom of the fourth rob
rec.sport.baseball	re quick way to tell if your local beat writer is dumb in article apr pilot njin net gajarsky pilot njin net bob gajarsky hobokenite writes anyone who writes dean palmer has homers at this pace he ll have home runs should be shot the dodgers after one inning of play have committed one error at this rate they ll have errors this season well maybe i m right this time warren usui i m one with the universe on a scale from to
rec.sport.baseball	re designated hitter rule in ekdfc ttacs ttu edu ekdfc ttacs ttu edu david coons writes in apr bsu ucs ecgillespi leo bsuvc bsu edu writes i am doing a postition paper on the designated hitter rule any information or even opinions would be greatly apprecitated ecgillespie magic should be rescinded the rules say baseball is a game between two teams of nine players each let s keep it that way not any more the rules don t say that so that s a pretty dumb argument david m nieporent only one thing wrong with theory niepornt phoenix is stupid is stupidest theory i ever heard princeton edu baltimore orioles who s the dangerous cult the bds or the batf
rec.sport.baseball	re rickey henderson in article apr ra msstate edu js isis msstate edu jiann ming su writes i say buy out henderson s contract and let him go bag groceries next season you ll be able to sign him for nothing that goes for any bitching ball player stay in school you have a lot to learn
rec.sport.baseball	re designated hitter rule actually there can be any number of players on a side you can have a man roster a man roster etc ryan robbins penobscot hall university of maine io maine maine edu
rec.sport.baseball	re why the redflops can but won t win don t knock vaughn for being a spring training hitter but a regular season hitter around games played isn t an indication of how good any hitter is and the quality of pitching is way down ryan robbins penobscot hall university of maine io maine maine edu
rec.sport.baseball	re david wells has david wells landed with a team yet i d think the tigers with their anemic pitching would grab this guy pronto dc
rec.sport.baseball	re cleveland tragedy in article apr ns cc lehigh edu gaf ns cc lehigh edu gail a fullman writes i wonder if ojeda will sue anyone because his career may be over not due to the accident he just got a really bad haircut now if you meant due to his floating fastball well mark atchison a k a atchison cis ohio state edu graduate student in the computer science dept the ohio state university not an ohio state university any plagiarisms seen above are not my own
rec.sport.baseball	re pinch hitters was re denny walling rickert nextwork rose hulman edu john h rickert said and i thought mota didn t really start pinch hitting for a living until after depends on what you mean by for a living was the year he led the league in pinch hit at bats with but he d been getting a lot of ph abs earlier than that and was never a full time player ph abs early in his career a year just before going to the dodgers and in the peak years we re talking about a guy with a year career as an outfielder a career batting average and or so career hits david m tate i do not know what it is about you that closes posing as and opens only something in me understands e e can the pocket of your glove is deeper than pete rose s dy cummings nobody not even tim raines has such soft hands
rec.sport.baseball	re marlins win marlins win dwarner journalism indiana edu said i only caught the tail end of this one on espn does anyone have a report look at all that teal bleah maybe it s just me but the combination of those young faces peeking out from under oversized aqua helmets screams little league in every fibre of my being david m tate i do not know what it is about you that closes posing as and opens only something in me understands e e can the pocket of your glove is deeper than pete rose s dy cummings nobody not even tim raines has such soft hands
rec.sport.baseball	re new uniforms in article c vwc lru usenet ucs indiana edu bodom silver ucs indiana edu br ian odom writes as far as i know toronto pittsburgh and new york nl change their uniforms every year every other year e g new york it will say mets in cursive new york in cursive or new york in all caps minor changes but they do change them often last year i think they had new york in all caps did toronto have blue jays or toronto last year what about pittsburgh it depends on which uniforms you are talking about for the last couple of years i believe toronto and pittsburgh has used the same uniforms or at least very similar the home jerseys had the team nick name blue jays or pirates but the road jerseys had the name of the city toronto or pittsburgh i believe this is the way most teams design their uniforms chris
rec.sport.baseball	o s lose openr at home to rangers sutcliffe gives up hrs gonzales palmer and mills gives up hr gonzales to lose sutcliffe texas lefferts baltimore sutcliffe jody hagins hagins avlin us dg com data general corporation linthicum md
rec.sport.baseball	mlb logos part i have posted the logos of the nl east teams to alt binaries pictures misc hopefully i ll finish the series up next week with the nl west darren darren reiniger reiniger ug cs dal ca arishem ac dal ca centre for marine geology dalhousie university halifax n s canada people who wonder where this generation is going should remind themselves where it came from in the first place
rec.sport.baseball	my predictions i thought i d post my predicted standings since i find those posted by others to be interesting sorry this is after opening day i certify that these were completed before the first pitch al east new york yankees the most only improved team in this division toronto blue jays stewart and morris no way milwaukee brewers they always seem to do better than i expect baltimore orioles pitching but devareaux anderson and hoiles will drop cleveland indians still don t seem to know what they are doing detroit tigers all key players but fryman are another year past peak boston red sox any team with clemens and viola might be beter than th al west this division was the toughest for me to pick whoever of the top gets pitching should win it minnesota twins young pitchers seem to have best chance for success texas rangers i don t know why i have them here jose canseco chicago white sox frank thomas but no pitching oakland a s larussa is the best manager and would keep any team close seattle mariners i like pinella but don t see much here kansas city royals will score no runs california angels will win no games nl east montreal expos good all around plus no wallach st louis cardinals jeffries whiten jose clark no galarraga pittsburgh pirates youngsters will take up more slack than expected new york mets some good players still not a team philadelphia phillies they don t impress me florida marlins they know what they re doing chicago cubs they don t know what they re doing nl west the best teams in baseball are in this division atlanta braves awesome starters but offense could be a concern cincinnati reds would not surprise me if they won it all houston astros any team that signs uribe won t contend closer to than san diego padres plantier could be the sheffield of los angeles dodgers better pitching than the giants san francisco giants because the rockies just stink colorado rockies will become the seattle mariners of the nl nlcs montreal d atlanta braves fans yes i m probably contradicting what i said in my nl west comment alcs new york d minnesota world series new york d montreal hating the yankees will be fashionable again nl mvp barry bonds or maybe mcgriff nl cy young jose rijo al mvp frank thomas will deserve it again but fielder might win it al cy young roger clemens at least will deserve it again david kenney kenney tribe b d ingr com
rec.sport.baseball	day day day disabled list questions i ve a curiousity whenever a person is put on the day day or day the person is on the list longer than the specificed time i ve seen a person on the day for maybe months last year i don t remember what i just need a little clarification on the disabled list specifications scotyy scott allen steinbrink go cleveland cavaliers nba finals netcom derich netcom com go cleveland indians world series digex derich digex com go cleveland browns super bowl
rec.sport.baseball	re young catchers mss netcom com mark singer said we know that very very few players at this age make much of an impact in the bigs especially when they haven t even played aaa ball yes but this is irrelevant you re talking about averages when we have lots of information about this player in particular to base our decisions on i might as well say we know that very very few people are more than feet tall so chances are that manute bol is really only foot no maybe i need to improve my writing skills lopez who is very ordinary defensively is not likely to hit so well at age having not played at aaa level that it is probably not a good idea to rush him into the braves lineup in why isn t lopez likely to hit that well he hit that well last year after adjusting his stats for park and league and such he hit better on an absolute scale than olson or berryhill did by a lot as for rushing if there really is a qualitative difference between the minors and the majors that requires a period of adjustment and i don t believe there is then wouldn t you rather waste lopez s year old good season than his year old very good season or his year old excellent season the sooner you get him acclimated the more of his prime you get to use lopez was hitting over ab when he was cut from spring training what does he have to do to earn a chance maybe not a full time job but at least a couple starts and a few ab for him to prove his worth gee i don t know abs sounds pretty good to me about as good as your reasoning that the kid should play a back up role rather than start every day at aaa talk about me as a gm the point was not that ab is a significant sample but rather that he hadn t done anything in spring training to cause even a blockhead manager to question whether his minor league numbers were for real or to send him down until he gets warmed up ok most players are not ready for the bigs at age most players are never ready for the bigs what does this have to do with javy lopez most players benefit rather than being stagnant or hurt by playing at aaa see above most catchers need to be solid defensively players to help their clubs in the bigs those are the arguments against lopez for the braves for this year but i could apply the same reasoning to frank thomas or barry bonds most players aren t that good so they probably won t be that good this year either now the braves have two catchers who have demonstrated solid abilities to call games to work with the pitchers to throw out runners and demonstrated inabilities to hit their way out of a soap bubble not superstars mind you but solid experienced veterans not superstars not stars not even good players maybe average if we re being charitable the braves have a very solid lineup with two big bats in the outfield an excellent platoon at first a solid mvp candidate at third and one of the better hitting shortstops ummm justice is a very fine hitter pendleton might have another big year in his bat but he might also spend the season in hamstring hell gant is a big question mark the bream hunter platoon is decent not excellent and has rotten obp or slg depending on who s in blauser is a very valuable bat for a shortstop the center field platoon will probably hit however good lopez bat might be given the above it won t be so much better than what they have to offset the differential in experience and defensive ability wanna bet the difference between lopez s bat and olson berryhill could be or runs over the course of the season given a choice between a player with experience and a player who can play i ll take the latter every time the kid will improve playing at aaa just like keith mitchell did i am just so surprised i have to spell all of this out my goodness do you believe the other poster who thinks lopez is being held down because of his future earning potential that was me and you so far your only counter proposal is that they really don t understand how good lopez is or overvalue experience or some combination of the two i think my interpretation was more flattering to the organization are they idiots who have built this ballclub well argued but inflammatory reply deleted david m tate i do not know what it is about you that closes posing as and opens only something in me understands e e can the pocket of your glove is deeper than pete rose s dy cummings nobody not even tim raines has such soft hands
rec.sport.baseball	re young catchers mss netcom com mark singer said in article blue cis pitt edu genetic pitt edu david m tate writes well perhaps if the braves had no one else worth playing this year it would be lopez in there but they do have others worth playing at least in their opinion catcher is their weakest position with the possible exception of second base they have a chance to simultaneously replace their biggest offensive problem spot with a well above average offensive player and acclimate a highly promising potential star with no pressure on him to carry the team and they want to play olson and berryhill instead i disagree in that i don t think it is a tangible skill any more than leadership is i don t deny that it is a real skill and that some catchers may be much better than others at it but i really don t see any way that we could ever know who they are nichols s law of catcher defense is eerily accurate far too often for me to take defensive assessments of catchers very seriously sorry new don t know nichols law a catcher s defensive reputation will be inversely proportional to his recent offensive level of performance thus mickey tettleton goes in the media from being a no hit defensive whiz to a slugging thumb finger in two short years the rule doesn t apply to perceived superstars who get the gold glove offensive transfer effect instead greg olson is probably considered to be a good defensive catcher precisely because he can t hit don t believe in catchers era but i am interested in pitchers eras with different catchers aren t they the same thing in other words we know more than they do so the only logic behind a different decision than we would make must be financial either that or just stupidity i presume we feel this way about other franchises than atlanta no of course is it fair to the young players no does it make organizational sense i think it does well if it does make organizational sense one can hardly fault them for their decisions i mean please don t tell me how to run my business especially when i m being successful one could make the same sort of argument in other cases pete rose in pursuing ty cobb s record was a huge gate attraction and national media magnet the reds made a lot of money off that they also wasted the prime of eric davis that may be good business but that doesn t mean i don t loathe them for it david m tate i do not know what it is about you that closes posing as and opens only something in me understands e e can the pocket of your glove is deeper than pete rose s dy cummings nobody not even tim raines has such soft hands
rec.sport.baseball	mlb standings and scores for tue apr th mlb standings and scores for tuesday april th including yesterday s games national west won lost pct gb last streak home road atlanta braves won cincinnati reds won san diego padres san francisco giants colorado rockies lost houston astros lost los angeles dodgers lost national east florida marlins won new york mets won philadelphia phillies won pittsburgh pirates st louis cardinals chicago cubs lost montreal expos lost american west won lost pct gb last streak home road oakland athletics won texas rangers won california angels chicago white sox minnesota twins seattle mariners kansas city royals lost american east boston red sox won new york yankees won milwaukee brewers toronto blue jays baltimore orioles lost cleveland indians lost detroit tigers lost yesterday s scores national league american league montreal new york cincinnati cleveland atlanta texas chicago baltimore los angeles boston florida kansas city philadelphia detroit houston oakland colorado california idle new york chicago idle pittsburgh idle milwaukee idle st louis idle minnesota idle san diego idle seattle idle san franciscoidle toronto idle joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers
rec.sport.baseball	braves win opener well maddux looked excellent as the braves shutout the cubs justice drove in the only run with an rbi single in the first get ready for him to have a monster year he is now hitting the ball to the opposite field with a lot of power to go with his natural power to right field and his good batting eye if he stays healthy which he should his back is full strength this year he should get over rbi and close to hr in another note the marlins got off to a good start beating the dodgers i believe the score was but i m not sure i wish them and the rockies well this year hell i think it would be funny to watch the dodgers hit the cellar again this year dan smith
rec.sport.baseball	re rickey henderson in article apr ra msstate edu js isis msstate edu jiann ming su writes in article ls d vinns appserv eng sun com str maredsous eng sun com todd rader writes stay in school you have a lot to learn learn what i know that million dollars is a lot of money i know rickey henderson doesn t have a career out of baseball i know if he didn t have baseball he wouldn t be making near the money he is now and michael jackson jack nicholson and bill cosby wouldn t be making near as much money if they weren t entertainers so what s your point i just don t understand how some athlete who only plays a sport for a living for millions of dollars say he is not being paid enough if nobody will sign him for his asking price he will be the one hurting the a s will still win without him will they you can t usually take away one of the team s best players and still expect them to win or do you think the pirates will continue to win without barry bonds remeber many of these athletes have nothing if not for their athletic ability nothing they are getting paid much more than most hard working citizens and they are complaining of not enough pay so again jack nicholson gets paid much more than most hard working citizens and much more than rickey henderson for that matter i don t have a problem with them making millions my problem is when the say they aren t being paid enough when they already get million also their numbers get worse the reason the latter often happens is that many of these folks start making the real big salaries late in their career when they are on the decline there are exceptions of course dave parker fell apart after making his first million because he put most of that million up his nose jim mann stratus computer jmann vineland pubs stratus com
rec.sport.baseball	white sox mailing list hi gang i d like to subscribe to the white sox mailing list if one exists can someone please e mail me the address thanks alot john jhunter mta ca
rec.sport.baseball	re new uniforms while i enjoy the trend towards the more classic style of uniform and i disagree with the person who wants a return to the non gray road uniforms it should be remembered that one of the if not the reason for the redesigning of uniforms especially hats re the new road all green a s caps and the cardinal navy blue road cap is the marketing money to be made in sales of new merchandise jeffrey popovich jpopovich guvax georgetown edu
rec.sport.baseball	help looking for cleveland sports mailing list info i m looking for the address to join the cleveland sports mailing list if anyone knows it i would be greatful if they could email a copy of it to me if you are a member just mail me one of the list s letters i could probably figure it out from there thanks mm mm fffff michael j fath m m m m f dept of microbiology and molecular genetics m m m fff harvard medical school m m f boston ma fath mbcrr harvard edu
rec.sport.baseball	re brewer notes in mar music lib matc edu pfan pfan music lib matc edu writes for those of you who know who bernie brewer is he s back the team mascot if you will was given his walking papers a few years ago but the fans voted him back last season and he will be perched in the his familiar home in the outfield and will again slide down into a barrel of beer when home runs are hit that is great to hear i just may have to take a raod trip to milwakee this year and see that again last time i saw bernie brewer was at the age of and i am now thanks for this post one final note bill spiers is leading the brewers with rbi s in exhibition play looks like he s bouncing back nicely from back problems good to bill is getting better form the limited coverage we get here in iowa i know that this will be a great season for the brew crew pete fanning computer operator leadership is action office of information technology not position milwaukee area technical college d h mcgannon email pfan music lib matc edu internet or pete fanning f n z fidonet org
rec.sport.baseball	re grateful dead in article io maine maine edu io maine maine edu writes being a baseball fan and a fan of the above mentioned band i was wondering if anyone could clue me in on whether the dead or members of sang the national anthem at todays giant opener i would imagine that it is a bit too early for anyone to know but an answer would be greatly appreciated it is my understanding that the dead will sing the na at the giants home opener on mon the giants are opening today in st louis luigi randy palermo luigi csd sgi com fax silicon graphics computer systems n shoreline blvd mt view ca play an accordion go to jail that s the law
rec.sport.baseball	re day day day disabled list questions in article derichc gje fja netcom com derich netcom com scotty tissue writes whenever a person is put on the day day or day the person is on the list longer than the specificed time i ve seen a person on the day for maybe months last year i don t remember what i just need a little clarification on the disabled list specifications i believe we are down to two the day and the day i don t remember a day but rather a day anyways it s gone now the period length is a minimum not a maximum you can keep a guy on the day for as long as you want if he s still certified as injured the player must be periodically re evaluated to determine if he s still injured thus you cannot park a player on the dl who maybe is out of options and you do not wish to expose to waivers if you get someone qualified for the day that reduces the frequency of re evaluations there is no longer i believe any limit to the number of players you can place on the dl when there was you often had to choose and juggle your injured players between the lists king sparky banaian no taxes no new taxes kbanaian pitzer claremont edu no old taxes we are taxed dept of economics pitzer college enough rep alan keyes latest gdp forecast please run alan
rec.sport.baseball	re mo sanford in article apr ra msstate edu js jazz cc msstate edu jiann ming su writes does any know if mo sanford rockies pitcher got cut he use to be with the reds but was drafted in the expansion draft i believe he was sent down to aaa
rec.sport.baseball	re my predictions for in article apr oswego oswego edu iacs oswego oswego edu kevin mundstock writes since everyone else seems to be running wild with predictions i ve decided to add my own fuel to the fire they might seem a bit normal but there are a few albeit small surprises al manager of the year buck showalter what makes you think buck will still be in new york at year s end with george back keith keller let s go rangers let s go quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs next time you go over my head i ll have yours on a platter cmdr benjamin sisko
rec.sport.baseball	re new uniforms jpopovich guvax acc georgetown edu writes while i enjoy the trend towards the more classic style of uniform and i disagree with the person who wants a return to the non gray road uniforms it should be remembered that one of the if not the reason for the redesigning of uniforms especially hats re the new road all green a s caps and the cardinal navy blue road cap is the marketing money to be made in sales of new merchandise no kidding just ask the white sox too bad really john neuharth neuharth u washington edu
rec.sport.baseball	re jim lefebvre is an idiot rickc krill corp sgi com richard casares writes in article apr bsu ucs bjgood leo bsuvc bsu edu writes i just wanted to let everyone know that i have lost what little respect i have for jim lefebvre after seeing today s cubs game a dishard cub fan yes i also wonder if they can win with this manager i never believed managers had that much to do with winning until i saw how much they had to do with losing i like the mariners a lot but my heart belongs to the cubs you can imagine my frustration when i saw the cubs nabbing lefebvre arhgghrghh john neuharth neuharth u washington edu
rec.sport.baseball	re marlins win marlins win genetic pitt edu david m tate writes dwarner journalism indiana edu said i only caught the tail end of this one on espn does anyone have a report look at all that teal bleah maybe it s just me but the combination of those young faces peeking out from under oversized aqua helmets screams little league in every fibre of my being hmm it seems the little leaguers didn t do too badly against hershiser strawberry e davis and the rest of the dodgers yesterday eric smith erics netcom com erics infoserv com ci
rec.sport.baseball	re harry and candy f violet ccit arizona edu greg franklin writes rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes i m watching a cubs rockies spring training game and i thought you d all like to know the particular way that harry caray butchers maldonado it seems to be mal n dal nado but i like the way he butchers andres galarraga s name it comes out like gahlah rrrraggggah and don t forget his frequent references to the great sf giant star bobby bonds what about thaaammy thotha i for one was really sorry to hear that the cubs had sent heathcliff slocumb to the minors eric smith erics netcom com erics infoserv com ci
rec.sport.baseball	re young catchers in article blue cis pitt edu genetic pitt edu david m tate writes mss netcom com mark singer said we know that very very few players at this age make much of an impact in the bigs especially when they haven t even played aaa ball yes but this is irrelevant you re talking about averages when we have lots of information about this player in particular to base our decisions on do you really have that much information on him really why isn t lopez likely to hit that well he hit that well last year after adjusting his stats for park and league and such he hit better on an absolute scale than olson or berryhill did by a lot i don t know you tell me what percentage of players reach or exceed their mle s in their rookie season we re talking about you know as for rushing if there really is a qualitative difference between the minors and the majors that requires a period of adjustment and i don t believe there is then wouldn t you rather waste lopez s year old good season than his year old very good season or his year old excellent season the sooner you get him acclimated the more of his prime you get to use if that were your purpose maybe offerman spent getting acclimated if you will the dodgers as a team paid a big price that season perhaps they will reap the benefits down the road do you really think they would have done what they did if they were competing for a pennant lopez was hitting over ab when he was cut from spring training what does he have to do to earn a chance maybe not a full time job but at least a couple starts and a few ab for him to prove his worth the point was not that ab is a significant sample but rather that he hadn t done anything in spring training to cause even a blockhead manager to question whether his minor league numbers were for real or to send him down until he gets warmed up for a stat head i m amazed that you put any credence in spring training did you notice who he got those hits off of or are you going to tell me that it doesn t make a difference the kid will improve playing at aaa just like keith mitchell did wait a minute i missed something here first forget keith mitchell are you saying that a kid who moves from aa to aaa and then does not improve would have been better off making a direct leap to the majors if a player does well at aa and then does not improve at aaa isn t that a sign that maybe he doesn t belong in the bigs now keith mitchell as i recall no stat books handy surprise he jumped from aa to atlanta in he did so well that he was returned to the minors where he didn t do very well at all now his career is in jeopardy so how does he fit in with your point good mle s in aa moved him right to the big club now he s one step away from being traded or moved out of baseball duh that was me and you so far your only counter proposal is that they really don t understand how good lopez is or overvalue experience or some combination of the two i think my interpretation was more flattering to the organization well i ve cast my lot certainly you may understand better how good lopez is and i may overvalue experience but neither one of us runs a baseball team the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	re marlins first rbi in article psgriinni rpco acslab umbc edu cs umbc edu cs writes hey i was watching the orioles game on tv yesterday monday when a report came in to the booth that the first runs came in on a three run single did this really happen if it did how they said that the leadoff man knocked them in what exactly happened thanks walt weiss tripled just barely inside the right field line and into the corner driving in santiago and conine these were the first two rbis the third came later when weiss was knocked in daniel
rec.sport.baseball	re my picks with only one comment in article psbg inngjj master cs rose hulman edu rickert nextwork rose hulman edu john h rickert writes in article jfr ra msstate edu jfr ra msstate edu jackie f russell writes psg pitt edu paul s galvanek writes national league west cincinnati houston atlanta argh here is where you are obviously dead wrong not since the yankees of the s and s has a team been so nicely setup as this years and years to come braves i don t think that the all star team will be able to beat this may be an appropriate comparison the yankees finshed nd rd and nd finshing and games out of first in and they also finished second though they were only and games out even great teams can lose that s why they play the season on the other hand i m still picking the braves to go all the way um surely you didn t intend to compare the reds with the philidelphia a s the yankees were finishing nd to a team that was as good as the yankees while the yankees had aged some from their peak years ruth and gehrig couldn t play every position simultaneously imo given the various ages of the braves and reds this season that the braves will be closer to their peak while the reds have slightly passed their peak also if you re going to compare braves and yankees a more appropriate comparison to the braves might be the yankees after falling short two years in a row in exciting world series both teams won will win the series this year despite the heroics of some old fart on the other team casey stengel dave winfield eric roush fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu i am a marxist of the groucho sort grafitti paris tanstaafl although the internet comes close
rec.sport.baseball	re quick way to tell if your local beat writer is dumb in article apr locus com aardvark spica la locus com warren usui writes in article apr pilot njin net gajarsky pilot njin net bob gajarsky hobokenite writes anyone who writes dean palmer has homers at this pace he ll have home runs should be shot now on the other hand juan gonzales probably does have a shot at hr s the dodgers after one inning of play have committed one error at this rate they ll have errors this season well maybe i m right this time actually you might be underpredicting eric roush fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu i am a marxist of the groucho sort grafitti paris tanstaafl although the internet comes close
rec.sport.baseball	re yankkes game closer my god hope we don t have to put up with this kind of junk all season in article w axe acadiau ca w axe acadiau ca jason walter works writes the n y yankees are now one game closer to the a l east pennant they clobbered cleveland on a fine pitching performance by key and two homeruns by tartabull first m l baseball to go out this season and a three how many home runs by tartabull just right you must be thinking of dean palmer or juan gonzalez both of texas who each had homers run homer by nokes for all of you who didn t pick boggs in your pools tough break he had a couple hits and drove in a couple runs with many more i don t know how many to follow but he was for go yanks mattingly for g glove and mvp and abbot for cy young spare us please
rec.sport.baseball	re marlins win marlins win look at all that teal bleah indeed if the color teal on a team s uniforms is any indication of the future the marlins are in dire trouble refer to the san jose sharks for proof but i have hope for the marlins i was a sometime member of the rene lachemann fan club at the oakland coliseum and have a deep respect for the guy he s a gem and of course walt weiss gives that franchise class but yeah whoever designed those uniforms was guilty of a paucity of style and imagination ugghhh lloyd r nebres uc berkeley internet lloyd uclink berkeley edu vox or never underestimate the bandwidth of a carrying a ton of cd roms
rec.sport.baseball	re young catchers in article mssc ril e netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes your speculation and others that lopez will produce better than the two proven veterans is nothing more than speculation no matter how well founded your speculation that the two proven veterans will produce better than lopez is also no more than speculation it does make a difference whether the speculation is well founded or not obviously the braves believe they can win with the catching they have and i agree if they change their minds they ll call up lopez though this is a good point the one speculation is safer because it can be reversed cheers valentine
rec.sport.baseball	call for votes dtbl mvp and cy please vote the regular season of the davis tabletop baseball league has just come to an end to help us with next year s league i would appreciate it if you would take a couple of minutes and vote for our league mvp and cy winners these awards and players standings in them will inflate their salaries for next year s league please vote for in each category in order for example barry bonds frank thomas biff pocoroba shooty babitt lips lundy please do not vote for pitchers in mvp voting for this league each team in the league gets one candidate for mvp and one for cy defensive position is listed where applicable along with an abbreviation of their performance there e excellent v very good a average p poor b very poor thanks please reply by april for the record the season was games long thanks for your help mvp candidates name g ab h b b hr r rbi bb k sb cs ibb ba obp slg def griffey p emartinez a sandberg v ventura e mcgriff p mcgwire e ralomar p dykstra a butler b deer v bonds e hrbek p jgonzalez b some players missed time due to injuries others were sat down at the end to avoid the possibility of injury there are better players than those on this list but each team gets one and only one candidate some players played more than games due to being traded to teams with more games left in the same time span now on to the pitchers name era g w l s ip h bb k hr gs cg sho wp dmartinez dibble rijo mussina benes khill smoltz cone drabek tewksbury clemens tomlin farr there you have it curt schilling threw a perfect game during the year and ken hill threw a no hitter rob dibble had pitched scoreless innings to start the year only to choke in the last two games to cost the perot s giant sucking sounds a playoff spot if you want stats of more players they are available by request please take the time to reply if you can thanks gary huckabay kevin kerr the al feldstein of the mid s a living argument for if there s anything we love more than a huge existence of parallel sig it s someone quoting lines to add universes or new ones and consecutive posts too o o ooo ooo david zavatson mein schatz es ist soweit unsere liebe ist vorbei
rec.sport.baseball	re young catchers since i was the one responsible for these divergent threads of approx posts going back to the braves could be better off if an injury happens i may as well inject a little more fuel to the flame back at the beginning of spring training i though lopez would make the squad easily olson was still recovering from his late season injury knee i believe and there were questions as to whether he would be able to play before june and then berryhill was dinged up i was looking forward to this because i believe that lopez can hit and field the position before last season he was the braves defensive catcher prospect while brian deak was the braves offensive catcher prospect besides olson and berryhill couldn t hit their way out of a wet cardboard box and don t walk enough to be useful but olson recovered quickly berryhill recovered and the braves went with the two vets i still say that if one of those two had been down at the start of the season he wouldn t have gotten his job back there is a certain logic to keeping olson and berryhill around after all ml catchers are in short supply and suffer from wear and tear there are teams out there without one average ml catcher california and seattle come to mind certainly trying to move olson or berryhill through waivers would be unlikely to work plus you d have to eat that salary which isn t huge but isn t tiddleywinks either i think olson s at about berryhill at but that s only what i recall yes i think arbitration eligibility may have a role to play in this also what is it that of the year players aren t eligible for arbitration only the that were on the roster the longest are eligible of course the system may change but the extent of that change is not yet known from a business standpoint it may make sense to keep lopez down until june the first time olson berryhill go on the dl i am still disappointed that lopez isn t on the team i still prefer to think of myself as a fan when it comes to the braves and the truth is that i d rather see our best team on the field which imo includes lopez of course today we play the cubs hopefully we won t need him as for the schuerholz cox conversation i imagine it went like this remember they ve both been gm s the following is not meant to be read by the humor impaired cox ok we ve sent jones down his fielding could be a little smoother besides blauser can hit ok and his fielding is better than it used to be schuerholz well we ll have to send nieves down too deion just won t sign that baseball only contract we can t count on him in october so we have to keep nixon around for the defense besides gorman s not ready to give up on billy hatcher yet once hatcher s gone and deion signs we can move nixon for frankie rodriguez that ought to give us some pitching depth in cox yep that ll be nice too bad deion won t sign ok i ll look for nieves when justice starts having berry berry er back problems again now what about klesko schuerholz well we ve still got to fork out another mil for bream if we keep klesko we either lose the money or cabrera i keep dangling sid in front of dal maxwell but somehow he doesn t seem to be the same gm first jeffries for jose and now whiten for clark if he gets rid of brian jordan then i d have to believe that he and whitey herzog switched bodies at the winter meetings cox ok keep trying on bream and i ll wait til the trading deadline for my hunter klesko platoon maybe i can get a few extra at bats for cabrera while we wait try california if snow starts slowly maybe whiteydal will bite on sid and if that doesn t work then perhaps sid s knees could be persuaded to act up there s always the day dl mwa ha ha ha ha schuerholz what about caraballo cox well he s not that much better than lemke maybe if he starts in richmond he ll start walking more besides if he s going to be arbitration eligible better to stretch him out so that we actually get some value from him before he makes the big bucks schuerholz now let s see that leaves lopez cox nooooo i gotta keep lopez sure i didn t think olson would recover this quickly maybe i can talk caminiti into running into him again schuerholz nope lopez has gotta go you know that he ll get million in arbitration may as well put it off that one extra year besides until olson s shown his stuff a little bit i can t trade him besides berryhill s a left handed hitter you know how rare that is cox don t you mean a left handed whiffer pretty common if you ask me i mean he made pat borders look good in the world series pat borders schuerholz hey you re the one who wouldn t write lopez into the lineup cox well you re the one who went out and got me jeff reardon besides i thought lopez wouldn t be used to our pitching staff s stuff he got some time with them this spring looked pretty good come on surely we only need to keep one stiff behind the plate schuerholz yeah but which stiff whichever one we keep will be hurt by may cox ok ok you made your point keep them both surely one of them will be on the dl by june at the latest then i can call up lopez and then we can win games the pennant the world series i ll be up there with john mcgraw casey stengel earl weaver oh they laughed at me in toronto but have you ever had to deal with george bell i ll finally get my just reward mwa ha ha ha schuerholz easy bobby have you been taking those happy pills left around by chuck tanner why d you ever hire that guy anyhow cox don t ask me ask ted eric roush fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu i am a marxist of the groucho sort grafitti paris tanstaafl although the internet comes close
rec.sport.baseball	re binaca blast deep drive derby bbddd returns the engimatic vincent gray writes king cogsci ucsd edu jonathan king writes even less publicized than this however was that the didn t come from the padres but from an un named source and that the money didn t go to the blue jays in toronto the money was diverted into a london bank account owned by a shadowy character named vincent gray i should be so lucky the account number must have been rejected oh come on everybody on the net has heard about plausible deniability you re not fooling anybody soon after that gray and palmer sent word to ottawa that canada had achieved absolute superiority over the united states in the field of baseballistic research as she controlled both the acker cook pitch alike contest and the binaca blast research institute the prime minister smiled i hope not to think that i would inadvertantly give any pleasure to mulroney really ruins my day note how quick vince was to make the inference that my post claimed that mulroney was smiling at the baseballistics news this sure looks like guilty knowledge to me realizing the taterific importance of this work john palmer and i concluded that we might be able to pool some resources i e the grand who will be the stars this year can anyone hope to combat brad arnsberg s record start to last year the early money has to be on tom tom bolton who contributed that clutch grandslam in his first appearance but i expect lots of strong contenders this year many of them right here in san diego jking
rec.sport.baseball	cubs behind marlins how i ve noticed that is has become fashionable lately in rsb to predict the marlines to finish ahead of the cubs how first base grace vs destrade could destrade be the second coming of cecil fielder i doubt it if destrade performs to the height of expectations then even otherwise edge to cubs second base sandberg vs barberie no contest sandberg will be back may edge to cubs a big edge shortstop vizcaino vs weiss vizcaino is excellent defensively but is an automatic out at bat weiss isn t much better with the stick even third base dave magadan vs buechelle magadan has a higher obp and is a better hitter buechelle has more power and is better defensively i think edge to florida catcher santiago vs wilkins wilkins is ok but santiago is better edge to marlins left field conine vs maldonado wow for yesterday i know conine has potential i watched him play at omaha the last couple years until he actually proves himself i give maldonado the edge however like at b this is position where florida might be even or better if the player there has a huge year center scott pose vs wilson may edge to may even if wilson hopefully the cubs will use may and save wilson for pinch running and the like may isn t ken griffey jr but he will hit with homers if he plays full time right felix vs sosa felix jose has occasional power and a bad obp so does sosa but sosa also has speed and a good glove edge to cubs starters aquino armstrong hammond a lot of fifth starters here the cubs won t remind anyone of the brave staff but morgan castillo guzman hibbard is average to ok better than the marline edge to cubs middle relief even the cubs have some decent middlemen and so do the marlins carpenter anf klink or decent but so are assenmacher and mcelroy closer a healthy harvey is a big edge to the marlins meyers is decent but no harvey of course the cubs may have a few more games to save look for saves blown from meyers and saves blown with a better era for harvey edge florida overall an edge to chicago neither of these teams will threaten to win anything of course e msilverm nyx cs du edu go cubs one likes to believe in the freedom of baseball geddy lee
rec.sport.baseball	re when did dodgers move from ny to la in article apr ncar ucar edu tparker music scd ucar edu tom parker writes i have a bet with my buddy on when the dodgers moved from ny to la does anyone know what year they moved the dodgers first year in la was
rec.sport.baseball	re best record ever in baseball in article psl jinnam jhunix hcf jhu edu admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu steve c liu writes of all teams i believe the cubs have the best record ever in baseball sometime way far back and something i think it was the cleveland indians with
rec.sport.baseball	re my predictions in article apr infonode ingr com kenney tribe b d ingr com writes i thought i d post my predicted standings since i find those posted by others to be interesting sorry this is after opening day i certify that these were completed before the first pitch nl west the best teams in baseball are in this division atlanta braves awesome starters but offense could be a concern cincinnati reds would not surprise me if they won it all houston astros any team that signs uribe won t contend closer to than san diego padres plantier could be the sheffield of los angeles dodgers better pitching than the giants san francisco giants because the rockies just stink colorado rockies will become the seattle mariners of the nl nlcs montreal d atlanta braves fans yes i m probably contradicting what i said in my nl west comment alcs new york d minnesota world series new york d montreal hating the yankees will be fashionable again nl mvp barry bonds or maybe mcgriff i guarantee that if bonds wins the mvp the giants will finish higher than th luigi randy palermo luigi csd sgi com fax silicon graphics computer systems n shoreline blvd mt view ca play an accordion go to jail that s the law
rec.sport.baseball	reds without sleeves was re new uniforms am i the only person who thinks the reds sleeveless uniforms are ugly yet another reason why they won t win the nl west eric roush fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu i am a marxist of the groucho sort grafitti paris tanstaafl although the internet comes close
rec.sport.baseball	re joe robbie stadium not for baseball in article apr oswego oswego edu iacs oswego edu kevin mundstock writes from iacs oswego edu kevin mundstock subject joe robbie stadium not for baseball date apr gmt did anyone notice the words not for baseball printed on the picture of joe robbie stadium in the opening day season preview section in usa today any reason given for this i would assume that the words i saw the picture indicated that those seats will not be available for baseball games if you look at the picture of the diamond in the stadium in relation to the areas marked not for baseball those seats just look terrible for watching baseball now if they should happen to reach the post season i would imagine that they would consider opening some of those seats up but that is surely a worry of the future sam lubchansky spl po cwru edu in the champion people see what they d like to be in the loser they see what they actually are and they treat him with scorn sugary condiments secure initial pleasure but fermented grain is decidedly more parsimonious of time
rec.sport.baseball	re best lifetime record in baseball history in article apr corning com cecce aj corning com writes speaking of the marlins winning the opener based on lifetime percentage of games won who has the second best record in baseball history soon to be the best record again if i had to guess i would be forced to say the yankees on the other hand the blue jays might be up there too hmmmmm tony blue jays no way hell but the yankees probably do remember the yankees had the best record of any team in the s and probably take the s through s as well
rec.sport.baseball	re yankkes game closer in article w axe acadiau ca w axe acadiau ca jason walter works writes the n y yankees are now one game closer to the a l east pennant they clobbered cleveland on a fine pitching performance by key and two homeruns by tartabull first m l baseball to go out this season and a three run homer by nokes for all of you who didn t pick boggs in your pools tough break he had a couple hits and drove in a couple runs with many more to follow the yanks beat an up and coming team of youngsters in the indians the yankees only need to win more games to get the division go yanks mattingly for g glove and mvp and abbot for cy young jason jason i am going to a yankee game wed night at cleveland stadium i am so happy but cleveland is a very bad team who lost severalrs they were an up and coming team now they are just a sad excuse for a better average abbot will not win the cy melido perez will as bold a prediction as they come well herot be in last place by the end of the season mike lurie speaks and the world listens
rec.sport.baseball	yankee meditations do you realize that the yankees are paying matt nokes dollars this year geesh and maas only gets by the way the yankees are going to win it all yankees are the best by the way jt snow an ex yankee will be rookie of the year
rec.sport.baseball	re joe robbie stadium not for baseball in article apr oswego oswego edu iacs oswego edu kevin mundstock writes did anyone notice the words not for baseball printed on the picture of joe robbie stadium in the opening day season preview section in usa today any reason given for this yes and the answer is simple to create a better feeling in the park the seats will be folded back for baseball games where you saw those words
rec.sport.baseball	mile high runs how many runs will be scored in denver i don t know but some idea can be gotten by looking at the runs scored in mile high stadium during the last few years of the bears zephyrs tenure in the american association here s the total runs scored per game in zephyrs games all league games and the ratio i found the same ratios for hr year rpg lea ratio hrpg lea ratio it seems pretty clear that denver will have a large effect on runs scored i ll stick with my prediction from last year that it ll be one of the top in the nl this year and a fairly large effect on homeruns though apparently not as large as atlanta wrigley cincinnati and san diego still it ought to be a pretty decent home run park john rickert rickert nextwork rose hulman edu
rec.sport.baseball	re my picks with only one comment in article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes in article psbg inngjj master cs rose hulman edu rickert nextwork rose hulman edu john h rickert writes in article jfr ra msstate edu jfr ra msstate edu jackie f russell writes psg pitt edu paul s galvanek writes national league west cincinnati houston atlanta argh here is where you are obviously dead wrong not since the yankees of the s and s has a team been so nicely setup as this years and years to come braves i don t think that the all star team will be able this may be an appropriate comparison the yankees finshed nd rd and nd finshing and games out of first in and they also finished second though they were only and games out even great teams can lose that s why they play the season on the other hand i m still picking the braves to go all the way um surely you didn t intend to compare the reds with the philidelphia a s the yankees were finishing nd to a team that was as good as the yankees while the yankees had aged some from their peak years ruth and gehrig couldn t play every position simultaneously imo given the various ages of the braves and reds this season that the braves will be closer to their peak while the reds have slightly passed their peak also if you re going to compare braves and yankees a more appropriate comparison to the braves might be the yankees after falling short two years in a row in exciting world series both teams won will win the series this year despite the heroics of some old fart on the other team casey stengel dave winfield perhaps so i was only responding to the yankees of the s and s part of the comment if those teams were a sure thing and lost then it s probably not so unreasonable for someone to pick another team not that i did john rickert rickert nextwork rose hulman edu go brewers
rec.sport.baseball	re marlins win marlins win in article lloyd lloyd uclink berkeley edu lloyd nebres writes look at all that teal bleah indeed if the color teal on a team s uniforms is any indication of the future the marlins are in dire trouble refer to the san jose sharks for proof but i have hope for the marlins i was a sometime member of the rene lachemann fan club at the oakland coliseum and have a deep respect for the guy he s a gem and of course walt weiss gives that franchise class but yeah whoever designed those uniforms was guilty of a paucity of style and imagination ugghhh maybe i m just a child of the s but i really liked the marlins uniforms the helmets shine nicely in the sun it s enough to make me a fan ted frank however teel should have mentioned that though thf kimbark uchicago edu his advice is legally sound if you follow it the u of c law school you will probably wind up in jail standard disclaimers james donald in misc legal
rec.sport.baseball	mark whiten i was on vacation all last week and didn t see any news at all could somebody fill me in on how st louis ended up with mark whiten in a trade who did we give up arocha allen watson dmitri young or did dal make a decent deal russ smith i don t know anything about x s but i know about some o george gervin on being an assistant coach
rec.sport.baseball	re info needed for cleveland tickets in article apr leland stanford edu bohnert leland stanford edu matthew bohnert writes i m going to be in cleveland thursday april to sunday april does anybody know if the tribe will be in town on those dates and if so who re they playing and if tickets are available the tribe will be in town from april to the th there are always tickets available though they are playing toronto and many toronto fans make the trip to cleveland as it is easier to get tickets in cleveland than in toronto either way i seriously doubt they will sell out until the end of the season doug bank private systems division dougb ecs comm mot com motorola communications sector dougb nwu edu schaumburg illinois dougb casbah acns nwu edu
rec.sport.baseball	re yogi isms here s one i remember sort of yogi s asleep in a hotel room late at night and gets a call from someone after he answers the phone the person at the other end asks if he woke yogi up yogi answered no the phone did kevin one of my favorites came back in the seventies when two streakers interupted a game yogi was at dashing across the field unclad later someone who wasn t present asked yogi if they were men or women he replied i couldn t tell they had bags over their heads
rec.sport.baseball	re young catchers mss netcom com mark singer said in article blue cis pitt edu genetic pitt edu david m tate writes mss netcom com mark singer said we know that very very few players at this age make much of an impact in the bigs especially when they haven t even played aaa ball yes but this is irrelevant you re talking about averages when we have lots of information about this player in particular to base our decisions on do you really have that much information on him really i don t personally but clay just posted it yes we do unfortunately it shows that lopez wasn t as good an example as nieves would have been since his last year numbers were out of line with the previous years which i didn t have access to the point remains though knowing a guy s minor league history is as good as knowing his major league history if you know how to read it why isn t lopez likely to hit that well he hit that well last year after adjusting his stats for park and league and such he hit better on an absolute scale than olson or berryhill did by a lot i don t know you tell me what percentage of players reach or exceed their mle s in their rookie season we re talking about you know the mle is not a projection it s an equivalence it s a this is how well he hit last year in major league terms rating so in essence he has already reached it i would guess bob clay that essentially half of all players surpass their previous mles in their rookie seasons maybe more than half since all of these players are young and improving if that were your purpose maybe offerman spent getting acclimated if you will the dodgers as a team paid a big price that season did they offerman may have been the difference between th or th place and last place but no more perhaps they will reap the benefits down the road do you really think they would have done what they did if they were competing for a pennant sure they didn t have anyone better i suppose they might have gutted the farm system to acquire jay bell or spike owen or somebody if they were really in contention the point was not that ab is a significant sample but rather that he hadn t done anything in spring training to cause even a blockhead manager to question whether his minor league numbers were for real or to send him down until he gets warmed up for a stat head i m amazed that you put any credence in spring training if you d read what i wrote you d be less amazed nowhere do i claim to put any credence in spring training quite the contrary i said that lopez hadn t done anything that even the bozos who do put credence in spring training could interpret as failure just because i think spring training numbers are meaningless doesn t mean that bobby cox does it s just a case of ruling out one possible explanation for sending lopez down the kid will improve playing at aaa just like keith mitchell did wait a minute i missed something here keith mitchell did very very well at aa aaa and the majors over a season then did very very poorly for a year in aaa david m tate i do not know what it is about you that closes posing as and opens only something in me understands e e can the pocket of your glove is deeper than pete rose s dy cummings nobody not even tim raines has such soft hands
rec.sport.baseball	sax any more news on steve s status since he lost the starting job would be appreciated thanks gwyn
rec.sport.baseball	re young catchers most of this discussion has been between mark singer and david tate with valentine weighing in on the same side as dave at various times my opinion fwiw to all mark age doesn t matter ability does i would rather have the untried rookie with great minor league numbers than the veteran who has proven himself to be average at best i don t care if he is if he plays better than what i have i want him out there sandy alomar had decent minor league numbers grossly inflated by the pcl in general and las vegas in particular he should have been projected as an average major league hitter which is good for a catcher i ll admit santiago s numbers would probably come out the same as sandy s but i don t have the league data from the mid s to check it out that being said i agree with sending lopez to richmond at least to start the season as the box below shows he has one minor league season in which he hit well he has two in which he hit very very poorly i want to see that the lopez is real olson and berryhill are not complete mediocrities for catchers especially nl catchers they are essentially average hitters with equivalent averages around if he had hit well at prior levels i would say he belongs on the braves but there is a reasonable chance that lopez last year was just as much a fluke as alomar in or santiago in one year at any level at any age doesn t satisfy my standards of evidence javier lopez bur dur grn atl maj min tot maj min tot on a similar note i don t understand why more people are not supportive of neon deion granted i thought his behavior with mccarver last year was completely bush last year was the first time he ever got ab in one place so his lines are hard to read but he has a combined ops in minor league play with his speed is more valuable than the ops alone indicates and at a still young age had a monster year with an ops he has a total major and minor eqa of above major league average and above average for cf which was about in the nl last year he has shown at least the potential of going into the s which would make him one of the best hitters in the league he has two full seasons before reaching his prime season of he should be considered as a legitimate prospect and not as a simple side show attraction deion sanders fla int eas nyy int nyy int atl ric atl maj min tot maj min tot clay d
rec.sport.baseball	re giants gm quinn is a genius in article apple apple com chuq apple com chuq von rospach wrote mcmath csb nlm nih gov chuck chuck bo buck mcmath writes when the giants protected mike benjamin career average ovre pitcher pat rapp there were surprised looks in the bay area benjamin s stats ab h doubles dingers and rapp s even been sent down to aaa so it s even better than that eh of course the protected list was done by the old regime not the new so this is rosen s baby not quinn s and i ll tell you what let s look at this again at the end of the season and say in three years and see who the genius is one of the more braindead decisions by the oldgiants imho even if benjamin does improve markedly over the past and his hitting is better he s never going to be more than a utility backup if rapp might turn into a top flight arm in another year i think the next time i post something like this i obviously need to make the sarcasm a bit more obvious chuck chuck mcmath mcmath csb nlm nih gov msd inc national library of medicine national institutes of health bethesda md no noose is good noose hey batter hey batter hey batter swing anon this opinion influenced by cosmic radiation
rec.sport.baseball	re reds without sleeves was re new uniforms in article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes in article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes am i the only person who thinks the reds sleeveless uniforms are ugly yet another reason why they won t win the nl west if uniforms really were a deciding factor in pennant races the pirates would have never won anything those have to be the ugliest uniforms i ve ever seen particular the all yellow set sherri nichols snichols adobe com my vote goes for the indians with their all red uniforms boog powell once said he felt like a big red blood clot rich barry barry ihlpe att com
rec.sport.baseball	re yogi isms in article apr bsu ucs mbstultz leo bsuvc bsu edu writes here s an interesting quote from bill veek from get that nigger off the field josh gibson was at minimum two yogi berras speaking of yogi anybody know any good yogi isms mike curious george stultz here s one i remember sort of yogi s asleep in a hotel room late at night and gets a call from someone after he answers the phone the person at the other end asks if he woke yogi up yogi answered no the phone did kevin
rec.sport.baseball	my predictions for since everyone else seems to be running wild with predictions i ve decided to add my own fuel to the fire they might seem a bit normal but there are a few albeit small surprises american league east w l gb new york yankees baltimore orioles toronto blue jays cleveland indians boston red sox milwaukee brewers detroit tigers american league west w l gb minnesota twins kansas city royals texas rangers chicago white sox oakland athletics seattle mariners california angels al mvp kirby puckett al cy young kevin appier al rookie of the year tim salmon al manager of the year buck showalter al comeback player of the year ozzie guillen national league east w l gb st louis cardinals philadelphia phillies montreal expos new york mets chicago cubs pittsburgh pirates florida marlins national league west w l gb atlanta braves cincinnati reds houston astros los angeles dodgers san francisco giants san diego padres colorado rockies nl mvp barry larkin nl cy young john smoltz nl rookie of the year wil cordero nl manager of the year joe torre nl comeback player of the year eric davis nl champions st louis cardinals al champions minnesota twins world champions st louis cardinals the st louis picks are what my heart says what my brain says is they will win the division lose to the braves in the nlcs and the braves will win the series against minnesota but for now i ll stick with the cards all the way kevin
rec.sport.baseball	joe robbie stadium not for baseball did anyone notice the words not for baseball printed on the picture of joe robbie stadium in the opening day season preview section in usa today any reason given for this also i just noticed something looking at the nolan ryan timeline in the preview on rickey henderson became nolan s th strikeout on he pitched his th no hitter against oakland i believe the last out in the game was made by rickey henderson and on nolan pitched his th no hitter on the same day a certain someone stole his th base which overshadowed it it seems that nolan is having a lot of publicity at rickey s expense imo rickey deserves it and it seems as most of the net agrees with me from what i ve seen on it lately they are both great players but imo nolan has outclassed rickey both in playing and more importantly in attitude just my thoughts kevin
rec.sport.baseball	re young catchers in article blue cis pitt edu genetic pitt edu david m tate writes as for rushing if there really is a qualitative difference between the minors and the majors that requires a period of adjustment and i don t believe there is then wouldn t you rather waste lopez s year old good season than his year old very good season or his year old excellent season the sooner you get him acclimated the more of his prime you get to use can anybody name a player who was rushed to the majors let s for argument s sake define rushed as brought up to the majors for more than a cup of coffee prior at age or younger and performing below expectations whose career was damaged by this rushing i m serious i tend to agree with david that bringing the player up sooner is better but i d like to look at players for whom this theory didn t work if there are any i d prefer players within the last years or so because then i can look up their minor league stats it s important to distinguish between players who legitimately had careers below what their minor league numbers would have projected as opposed to players who were hyped and failed but actually had careers not out of line with their minor league numbers let s kick it off with an example of a player who was rushed although there doesn t seem to have been any damage to his career jay bell was given pas in the major leagues at age and performed well below what you would expect from his aaa numbers the same season he got pas the next year at age and still underperformed however the next year at age his performance improved and he won the everyday shortstop job and has been there ever since it s really hard for me to see where he would have been better off staying in the minor league where he was performed quite well in aaa during this time rather than being rushed cleveland might have been better off i suppose because they might have been less likely to give up on him yes if you bring a player up early he s likely going to struggle but does that delay the time at which he stops struggling and starts performing up to expectations sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	re cubs game of april th in article apr oucsace cs ohiou edu jclark oucsace cs ohiou edu j michael clark writes otis nixion lined a single to left with two outs breaking up the no hitter cubs win on a hitter by jose guzman that s might be what it takes to beat the braves this year look at smoltz s pitching line hits walks er so and a loss
rec.sport.baseball	players rushed to majors snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes can anybody name a player who was rushed to the majors let s for argument s sake define rushed as brought up to the majors for more than a cup of coffee prior at age or younger and performing below expectations whose career was damaged by this rushing i tend to agree that players are not hurt by early play in the big leagues the braves organization is a fertile ground to test this hypothesis as they had little talent on their roster for some time steve avery for example was rushed to the majors and he fared very poorly during his initial campaign his subsequent pitching has not been affected by his era during his rookie year bill james pointed out that it was relatively unusual to struggle so and then rebound bob horner was also rushed to the majors out of arizona state directly had good numbers immediately i am not certain of the ages of people like pete smith craig mcmurty and derek lilliquist the braves pitching staffs were so bad when they came up that they might have been rushed lilliquist and smith struggled but it didn t hurt ps and dl may have been overhyped i seem to recall cm pitching well initially though i don t have stats handy douglas bone internet bone luciano stanford edu standard disclaimers bitnet bone luciano stanford edu stanford apply uucp ucbvax luciano sierra stanford edu bone
rec.sport.baseball	re rickey henderson in article ls d vinns appserv eng sun com str maredsous eng sun com todd rader writes stay in school you have a lot to learn learn what i know that million dollars is a lot of money i know rickey henderson doesn t have a career out of baseball i know if he didn t have baseball he wouldn t be making near the money he is now i just don t understand how some athlete who only plays a sport for a living for millions of dollars say he is not being paid enough if nobody will sign him for his asking price he will be the one hurting the a s will still win without him remeber many of these athletes have nothing if not for their athletic ability nothing they are getting paid much more than most hard working citizens and they are complaining of not enough pay i don t have a problem with them making millions my problem is when the say they aren t being paid enough when they already get million also their numbers get worse
rec.sport.baseball	angels win the angels won their home opener against the brewers today before at anaheim stadium on a hitter by mark langston j t snow and gary discarcina hit home runs for the angels daniel
rec.sport.baseball	re young catchers mss netcom com mark singer said most catchers need to be solid defensively players to help their clubs in the bigs those are the arguments against lopez for the braves for this year now the braves have two catchers who have demonstrated solid abilities to call games to work with the pitchers to throw out runners this is the crux of the argument to me at least both the sdcn and the non sdcn camps seem to agree on the fact that a catcher s defense is basically nonmeasurable at present you can talk about how important calling a game is or framing the pitches or blocking balls in the dirt but there is little or no way to tell exactly how various catcher s rank in defense looking at lopez specifically is there any reason to suspect that he is a bad defensive catcher other then the fact that the braves or the media has labeled him a bad defensive catcher as far as i can tell he doesn t have any particular problem in his mechanics such as sasser he might be a little rough around the edges in blocking the ball or framing the pitch to get a good call but all he needs to clear that up is playing and practice time i can t see how repetitions at aaa are any better then reps in the majors all we re left with is the calling the game aspect olsen and berryhill at always given credit for calling good games and helping the pitchering staff but this is a reputation that is given to almost all veteran catchers how is catching at aaa going to help lopez learn the major league pitching staff the only way any catcher is going to learn tom glavine s pitches is to catch tom glavine similarly i wouldn t be supprised if the pitcher s claimed to prefer pitching to olsen over pitching to lopez because they are used to pitching to olsen but given time they will say they are comfortable with lopez now since lopez can t learn how to handle the major league pitcher s while he s in aaa and since he doesn t have any glaring problem in his mechanics what is he going to learn in aaa that he can t learn just as well while in the majors dave dave bonar mebonar lsuvax sncc lsu edu
rec.sport.baseball	re my picks with only one comment in article jfr ra msstate edu jfr ra msstate edu jackie f russell writes psg pitt edu paul s galvanek writes since i did so well last year here s another shot at picking the winners and losers i ll skip the commentary on why i picked who to finish where due to lack of time for flame wars kansas city i think kc has a much better shot at being in the top division than the bottom one word cone should help things tremendously i think you are way off the mark here another word offense makes them my pick for last too well there s also my policy of never picking a buck rodgers team for last florida chicago i dont know if an expansion team has ever finished not last but i think this year might be a first if it hasnt ever happened the cubs are worse the angels were game out of th the athletics and expansion senators finished tied for last the colt s finshed th ahead of the cubs the mets were last the royals finshed th ahead of the white sox the pilots in last the mariners finished th ahead of the athletics in last apparently being an expansion team with a poor a s or chicago team around is a good thing national league west cincinnati houston atlanta argh here is where you are obviously dead wrong not since the yankees of the s and s has a team been so nicely setup as this years and years to come braves i don t think that the all star team will be able to beat this may be an appropriate comparison the yankees finshed nd rd and nd finshing and games out of first in and they also finished second though they were only and games out even great teams can lose that s why they play the season on the other hand i m still picking the braves to go all the way john rickert rickert nextwork rose hulman predictions for marlins wins rockies wins and rockies fans will claim that the offense is adequate
rec.sport.baseball	re jim lefebvre is an idiot in article apr bsu ucs bjgood leo bsuvc bsu edu writes i just wanted to let everyone know that i have lost what little respect i have for jim lefebvre after seeing today s cubs game a dishard cub fan if you think that s bad just wait until he tries dunston in the leadoff spot again yes i also wonder if they can win with this manager i never believed managers had that much to do with winning until i saw how much they had to do with losing rick
rec.sport.baseball	re jim lefebvre is an idiot in article c uc bl news cso uiuc edu ada uxa cso uiuc edu driftwood writes i totally agree with each point you made jose viscaino looked like a single a hitter up there who swings on count with maddux pitching and your teams down by a run and you haven t touched the ball all day i also think too much is made of that lefty righty thing watching the cubs games i get the feeling steve stone knows a lot more about what the cubs should be doing than lefebre does harry said it best when he stated after another terrible vizcaino at bat we can t wait til sandberg returns i tell you steve stone is like a prophet he must be making a ton in the boradcoast booth because i can t understand why he s not actually back in the game itself the other day he called sosa s homerun against the sox and claimed the game would be going into extra innings when the score was in the th so yesterday he notices that sosa s ahead in the count against maddux and says this is a fastball situation and sosa will be looking for it but this is also the spot where maddux throws the straight change sure enough sosa gets ahead on it and pops it up to the infield stoney for cubs manager rick
rec.sport.baseball	re young catchers in article mssc qmx netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes now keith mitchell as i recall no stat books handy surprise he jumped from aa to atlanta in he did so well that he was returned to the minors where he didn t do very well at all now his career is in jeopardy so how does he fit in with your point good mle s in aa moved him right to the big club now he s one step away from being traded or moved out of baseball duh methinks you recall wrong mitchell hit close to in atlanta and continued to walk alot after his promotion he was then i think left off the playoff roster and started the next year in the minors where even the braves will tell you he underperformed because he was so mad at going back down he struggled last year no doubt but even the braves blamed part of it on the demotion i d much rather have mitchell than say mark whiten on the cards russ smith i don t know anything about x s but i know about some o george gervin on being an assistant coach
rec.sport.baseball	chris webber chokes after the marvelous time out call by chris webber which resulted in a technical foul since his team had no time outs left perhaps webber will take the place of bill buckner as the master of choke at least this red sox fan hopes so ted when chelsea clinton s secret service agent had to be replaced by an active duty soldier she objected on the grounds that her family dislikes the military krueger gas uug arizona edu
rec.sport.baseball	re designated hitter rule ekdfc ttacs ttu edu david coons the rules say baseball is a game between two teams of nine players each let s keep it that way niepornt phoenix princeton edu david marc nieporent not any more the rules don t say that so that s a pretty dumb argument really my little mind be boggled i don t have a rule book yet so david would you please post the new wording of rule i am mightily curious much thanks wayne hathaway domain wayne ultra com ultra network technologies uucp ames ultra wayne daggett drive phone x san jose ca fax
rec.sport.baseball	camden yards i am fortunate enough to have tickets for an orioles red sox game in baltimore on saturday july st i haven t been to the new park and i was wondering if anyone out there can give me pointers or good tips or anything helpful about the place so that i can enjoy every moment spent there for instance what time do the gates open do we see the orioles take bp when will the red sox take bp anything you can tell me would be appreciated thank you in advance please respond to my e mail address i know it s still three and a half months away but i m psyched sue
rec.sport.baseball	re rickey henderson and michael jackson jack nicholson and bill cosby wouldn t be making near as much money if they weren t entertainers so what s your point actually i could care less what his salary is it has something to do with the fact that we live in america and everyone is entitled to whatever he can legally obtain if sandy alderson and the haas family willingly negotiate a salary of million per year with rickey i couldn t care less but what really gets my goat is the bullshit he spouted in spring training about well sometimes i may not play as hard or might be hurt more often in a place where i m not appreciated this quote was in the chronicle about the second week of camp and strongly suggests that he was going to dog it all year if the ownership didn t kiss his butt and ante up some more money for god s sake rickey you signed a contract years ago now honor it and play say all you want to about steve garvey and believe me i hated him too but at least when he put his signature on a piece of paper he shut his mouth and played hard until the contract was up matt bohnert
rec.sport.baseball	re david wells in article apr iccgcc decnet ab com carrd iccgcc decnet ab com writes has david wells landed with a team yet i d think the tigers with their anemic pitching would grab this guy pronto they did for k jim
rec.sport.baseball	seer stephenson picks the a l east having run completely out of time i ve got to get my prophesies and predictions for the a l out qualifications one of the worse finishes in last year s prediction contest al east baltimore orioles why the orioles well i pondered long and hard and it all came down to this the blue jays are going the wrong direction can t bring myself to pick the yankees milwaukee was a fluke indians aren t ready to contend red sox were bad last year and didn t get any better detroit s pitching will be the new definition of replacement level but you don t really think the orioles will win do you no as a matter of fact i can t see any team in the american league winning either division on paper with the possible exception of the yankees who i hate but some body has to win so i pick the orioles you don t really think that brady anderson is going to repeat do you no i m basing the orioles prediction on the expectation of big years from cal ripken and glenn davis glenn davis that s insane yes so without further ado strong points hoiles ripken some years olson getting rid of billy ripken weak points segui may start valenzuela the original something may be the fifth starter oates puts his best hitters at the bottom of the lineup does anybody else think that might be a calculated maneuver to minimize the effect of a slumping ripken if you can t move ripken out of the spot why not move the rest of the line up would be a good sign glenn davis wins comeback player of the year would be a bad sign in a tight pennant race team trades for pecota obprediction the streak continues harold reynolds leads the team in caught stealing new york yankees strong points abbot key perez could have best pitching in american league boggs should improve on hayes weak points mattingly still considered best hitter the steinbrenner factor the yankees lost to the mets can wholesale changes be far behind never count on rookie pitchers i e wickman millitello to win a division would be a good sign boggs hits over would be a bad sign howe gets arrested again obprediction mattingly won t top a ops toronto blue jays strong points management willing to make big deals management has eerie power to convince other teams its prospects are not suspects olerud guzman alomar weak points the jackson for bell trade has shaken my faith in gillick losing stewart may hurt rotation that s really a bad sign no one in the outfield can get on base pitching is thin behind guzman and ward would be a good sign jack morris considered cy young contender in august would be a bad sign club makes no major deals in august obprediction morris will post better era and whip totals than last year and have a losing record milwaukee brewers strong points pitching staff was exceptional last year weak points molitor gone surhoff at third why eldred can t keep it up would be a good sign listach and eldred play like last year would be bad sign bones plays like last year obprediction surhoff won t finish the year at third cleveland indians strong points baerga belle nagy weak points pitching staff thin losing olin really hurts starts felix fermin would be a good sign bielecki s era is consistent with his atlanta starts would be a bad sign ted power bullpen ace obprediction alomar will be back on the dl by the all star break boston red sox strong points clemens viola clemens detroit clemens weak points most incompetent gm in baseball key free agent signing andre dawson burks is gone hatcher in center would be a good sign rainouts in between clemens starts would be a bad sign clemens on the dl obprediction russell will make sox fans forget reardon interpret that how you will detroit tigers strong points tettleton phillips whitaker weak points if fielder keeps declining he ll be a shortstop this year worst rotation in baseball entirely replaced but not necessarily better this year could be very ugly would be a good sign cecil fielder deserving the mvp would be a bad sign cecil fielder not whining about deserving an mvp obprediction cecil won t lead the league in rbis one more division to go dale j stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information j golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	re rockies not rookies in c u kr news cso uiuc edu dbl uxa cso uiuc edu daniel brian lake writes you d think that an expansion team would be filled with young ns not guys like murphy galaragga b smith it depends if you can get your old veterans cheap and if they can perform at a higher level than your young talent can now why not the talent develop in the minors while giving the fans some familiar names to cheer if the veterans are gone in a year or two that should be just about right maybe someone should tell those renegade front office people in denver open question which was more important to the expansion clubs the expansion draft or the regular draft they ve had one of each i think dale j stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information j golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	re cubs behind marlins how gajarsky pilot njin net writes morgan and guzman will have era s run higher than last year and the cubs will be idiots and not pitch harkey as much as hibbard castillo won t be good i think he s a stud pitcher this season so far morgan and guzman helped to lead the cubs at top in era even better than the rotation at atlanta cubs era at while braves at we know it is early in the season we cubs fans have learned how to enjoy the short triumph while it is still there
rec.sport.baseball	re giants gm quinn is a genius in autodesk com trs autodesk com tom schroeder writes nlu xenon stanford edu nelson lu writes during the same time span the braves developed john smoltz tom glavine steve avery david justice ron gant and jeff blauser among others avery i believe came from the phillies jeff blauser avery was the overall pick by the braves behind mark lewis i think in john smoltz came over to the braves from the tigers but was developed by the braves jeff blauser isn t a bad player dale j stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information j golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	best record ever in baseball of all teams i believe the cubs have the best record ever in baseball sometime way far back and something admiral steve c liu admiral steve c liu internet address admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu commander in chief of the security division of the pi club earth chapter president of the earth chapter of the pi club founded april world champions baltimore orioles why not series in the yards stanley cup champions washington capitals committee for the liberation and intergration of terrifying organisms and their rehabilitation into society the only problem is that the abbreviation is clitoris from the polymorph episode of red dwarf the bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed this sig has been brought to you by frungy the sport of kings my god man drilling holes through his head is not the answer dr mccoy you know susanna hoffs has a really nice ass comment by m flanagan the pi club creating the largest signatures for the past nine months
rec.sport.baseball	re players rushed to majors i don t know if you could call him rushed but big ben mcdonald didn t much time at all in the minors of course that was because the balls used in aaa had seams too large and gave mcdonald blisters forcing him to go on the dl several times he s done most of his learning here in the majors of course gregg wild thing olson and mike deserved a cy young mussina didn t spend much time in the minors either i read somewhere that pitchers are less likely to need that much time in the minors anyway so maybe that has something to do with it let s go o s why not admiral steve still reliving sept liu admiral steve c liu internet address admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu commander in chief of the security division of the pi club earth chapter president of the earth chapter of the pi club founded april world champions baltimore orioles why not series in the yards stanley cup champions washington capitals committee for the liberation and intergration of terrifying organisms and their rehabilitation into society the only problem is that the abbreviation is clitoris from the polymorph episode of red dwarf the bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed this sig has been brought to you by frungy the sport of kings my god man drilling holes through his head is not the answer dr mccoy you know susanna hoffs has a really nice ass comment by m flanagan the pi club creating the largest signatures for the past nine months
rec.sport.baseball	marlin fans i was watching the dodgers marlins game yesterday and a couple of things impressed me first is that the way the sun was shining in miami it had a summer atmosphere in early spring for baseball in comparison wrigley field in early april still has a wintry look to it with the dead ivy and bundled up fans the second and most important was the fans i like these guys gals i will admit i am a football fan first but i still enjoy baseball it was interesting because most of these fans are only accustomed to the miami dolphins the way they were cheering i thought it was the afc playoffs of course opening day may have a lot to do with it but i really got feeling of electricity that i think is lacking with a lot of baseball fans in other cities baseball certainly needs a charge and i hope these two expansion teams bring back some excitement we ll find out friday how denver bronco fans respond phillies are i better say it now before my opportunity passes by
rec.sport.baseball	re best homeruns i personally will never forget mike schmidt s home run against the expos in that decided the nl east it was also his career high th another home run that i thought was totally incredible was in the alcs the ca angles had the boston red sox strike away from the pennant until don baylor hit a two strike pitch for a home run that was the most incredible turn of events i have ever seen in baseball the sox later took the pennant away only to have the same thing done to them in the ws against the mets speaking of the mets isn t it strange how the nlcs that year with the astros almost mirrored the nlcs with the phillies the astros have been painfully close twice i must admit
rec.sport.baseball	re florida sucks this talk about the phillies winning the nl east is scary very scary don t get me wrong im a phillies fan but as late as last year they looked helpless the funny thing was they did have a lot of injuries in spring training that basically killed their chances of course don t forget the dykstra wrist injury in the first or second game
rec.sport.baseball	the phillies deja vu after reading my local paper today i found out that the phillies started the season at i am not as old as but i ve heard many talk about the serious choke job the phillies did that season they were ahead of the cardinals by games that season in mid august they managed to lose a bunch from then on and the cardinals took the division games ahead and lost it i hope this season is much different
rec.sport.baseball	re notes on jays vs indians series in article apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes in article rudyc fr q cl netcom com rudy netcom com rudy wade writes in article c fmxd pm cs dal ca niguma ug cs dal ca gord niguma writes reference to history because he certainly didn t have the best season for second basemen in history he probably didn t even have as good a season as alomar last year what do you have some measure like popularity in toronto doesn t count that you are basing this statement on uh yes baerga has a lot of flash but alomar was the better hitter last year batters ba slg obp g ab r h tb b b hr rbi bb so sb cs e baerga c alomar r this is fascinating you say that alomar was the better hitter last year and immediately follow that up with numbers showing that baerga had a better year the only category that i see which shows an advantage for alomar is obp
rec.sport.baseball	tiger stadium gif does anybody have a gif of the tiger stadium seating chart thanks brian curran mead data central brian meaddata com i didn t think i should ve been asked to catch when the temperature was below my age carlton fisk chicago white sox catcher on playing during a degree april ball game
rec.sport.baseball	re the phillies deja vu in article apr cabell vcu edu csc imd cabell vcu edu ian m derby writes after reading my local paper today i found out that the phillies started the season at i am not as old as but i ve heard many talk about the serious choke job the phillies did that season they were ahead of the cardinals by games that season in mid august they managed to lose a bunch from then on and the cardinals took the division games ahead and lost it i hope this season is much different i don t shannon cardinals fan kohl
rec.sport.baseball	re braves pitching updatedir in article apr pts mot com ep dn pts mot com dave naehring x p writes in article adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes every single piece of evidence we can find points to major league baseball being offense defense a run scored is just as important as a run prevented this certainly passes the common sense test for me but is there any statistical evidence to say what percent of defense is pitching and what percent is fielding i d really like to know btw sherri thanks for the da data i find it fascinating of course a run scored is just as important as a run prevented just as a penny saved is a penny earned enough with the cliches my point is that if the braves starters are able to live up to their potential they won t need much offensive support i realize this is a big if this staff leaves the bosox in the dust there is no legitimate comparison two cy young winners and three other pitchers that most any team in the league would kill to have as their first or second starter it seems to me that when quality pitchers take the mound the other teams score less runs the team that scores the most runs wins this puts the team with the better pitching at the advantage providing they can stop the opposing team from scoring runs a low scoring game would clearly benefit the braves they should have many low scoring games due to their excellent pitching and below average hitting on the flip side if you had a starting lineup of great offensive players i would be arguing that this team would not need great pitchers they would have an advantage because they could simply outscore their opponent the name of the games is to win even ray knight knows that you do this by putting more runs up on the scoreboard all i m trying to say is that if you assemble the quality pitchers like the braves have the offense doesn t need to be as strong sam dave sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	re tigers woof woof david shapiro people can call it a monkey but i felt like shapiro david yale edu i had a piano on my back all winter long shapiro minerva cis yale edu the piano is off my back maybe a trombone will be next stan belinda
rec.sport.baseball	cards mailing list count me interested in a cardinal s mailing list if anyone finds one or starts one please let me know thanks dick detweiler rdetweil hpdmd boi hp com
rec.sport.baseball	re cubs expos roster questions in article apr vmsb is csupomona edu cvadrnlh vmsb is csupomona edu writes today cubs activated p mike harkey from dl whom did they move to make room for harkey also are delino deshields john wetteland of the expos on the dl thanks for anyone who can give me more info ken cal poly pomona wetteland is on the dl effective march or something like that rick
rec.sport.baseball	re tigers a s in article apr sbcs sunysb edu wynblatt sbgrad cs sunysb edu michael wynblatt writes weird thing leading going into the top of the ninth sparky used his ace closer henneman the tigers have relievers and at least were rested available does sparky trust them that little i think he just wanted to get henneman some work because the tigers had days off both the day before and the day after jim
rec.sport.baseball	re phillies sign mark davis does that mean they have to pay his salary didn t they wait for him to clear waivers if not why not davis will be paid by three clubs this year i think the phils are responsbible for about or so they didn t wait for him to clear waivers as three other clubs were also very interested in him a gamble yes oh it will as a royals fan i am skeptical they say he pitched well in winter ball he also pitched well at omaha while with kc he just didn t pitch well or even acceptably when in the majors i don t have his atlanta stats but he must not have impressed them very much either what about the year when he got saves in san diego did he pitch well then ok i know he was awful the next year when he went to kc but still won the cy young too for that year
rec.sport.baseball	re florida sucks in article apr cabell vcu edu csc imd cabell vcu edu ian m derby writes this talk about the phillies winning the nl east is scary very scary don t get me wrong im a phillies fan but as late as last year they looked helpless the funny thing was they did have a lot of injuries in spring training that basically killed their chances of course don t forget the dykstra wrist injury in the first or second game first game first at bat
rec.sport.baseball	re players rushed to majors in article c hq o g p tss com hanson tss com hanson loo writes didn t bob horner go straight from arizona state univ to the atlanta braves i remember he had one great month hitting dingers and then the next i heard he was in japan a month well he did have a short career compared to what one might have expected for such a highly touted prospect due to being injury prone overweight and having no work ethic but he certainly did not suffer from being rushed to the bigs len reed holos software inc voice ext domain lbr holos atl ga usa uucp lbr holos uucp
rec.sport.baseball	sid fernandez i read this morning that sid fernandez left last nights game with stiffness in his shoulder does anyone have any information as to the extent of the injury if indeed there is one or weather the cold air in colorado just got his joints a little stiff thanks for the help ray miller disclaimer cub chopin jpl nasa gov all opinions are strictly my own i once spent a year in philadelphia i think it was on a sunday wcfields
rec.sport.baseball	re yankkes game closer in article apr freenet carleton ca aa freenet carleton ca ralph timmerman writes from aa freenet carleton ca ralph timmerman subject re yankkes game closer date tue apr gmt in a previous article w axe acadiau ca jason walter works says the n y yankees are now one game closer to the a l east pennant they clobbered cleveland on a fine pitching performance by key and two homeruns by tartabull first m l baseball to go out this season and a three run homer by nokes for all of you who didn t pick boggs in your pools tough break he had a couple hits and drove in a couple runs with many more to follow the yanks beat an up and coming team of youngsters in the indians the yankees only need to win more games to get the division go yanks mattingly for g glove and mvp and abbot for cy young jason does that mean we have to read this drivel another times this season please spare us and check you facts before you post ralph timmerman there is no life after baseball aa freenet carleton ca no one says you have to read any of it ralph go play in traffic or take a nap they work for me kevin kerr kkerr mkcase dseg ti com president north texas c programmers users group bbs go yankees go dolphins strolling through cyberspace sniffing the electric wind
rec.sport.baseball	let it be known i would like to make everyone aware that in winning the nl west the atlanta braves did not lead wire to wire through games of the houston astros are percentage points ahead of the unbeatable braves go astros byron t lee a native texan stuck in utah
rec.sport.baseball	mlb standings and scores for thu apr th mlb standings and scores for thursday april th including yesterday s games national west won lost pct gb last streak home road houston astros won atlanta braves lost san francisco giants lost los angeles dodgers lost colorado rockies lost san diego padres lost cincinnati reds lost national east philadelphia phillies won pittsburgh pirates won st louis cardinals won new york mets won chicago cubs won montreal expos lost florida marlins won american west won lost pct gb last streak home road texas rangers lost california angels won oakland athletics lost seattle mariners won chicago white sox won minnesota twins lost kansas city royals lost american east boston red sox won new york yankees won toronto blue jays lost detroit tigers won cleveland indians lost milwaukee brewers lost baltimore orioles won yesterday s scores idle teams listed in alphabetical order national league american league houston baltimore montreal texas pittsburgh seattle san diego toronto chicago cleveland atlanta boston cincinnati california philadelphia milwaukee new york kansas city colorado new york florida minnesota ppd san francisco chicago rain st louis detroit idle los angeles oakland idle joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers
rec.sport.baseball	re boog powell was re camden yards in article apr alchemy chem utoronto ca mark b says was he better than balboni this borders on blasphemy bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	re nl vs al in article apr news yale edu sean garrison says in article rvesterm vma cc nd edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu wrote pitchers who are doing well are more likely to be taken out of the game in the nl than they are in the al so it seems to me that the al not the nl promotes pitchers duels bob vesterman on what basis do you make this statement q sean are you serious pitchers are pinch hit for in the nl they are not in the nl if a pitcher is cranking in the al he will stay in the game if he is cranking in the nl he may not especially if it s a pitchers duel and his team needs an extra run bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	re ugliest swing in article oasys dt navy mil kiviat oasys dt navy mil brian kiviat says what i think is hotdogish about his ab s is the way he leans out over the plate to watch outside pitches etc this not done to get a better look at the pitch but to make it seem this ball is so far out i need to lean just to get near it so you better call it a ball this is my unbiased opinion of what i see your mileage will vary rickey is agreat player to watch if you forget who he is at the time a lot of batters lean in when pitches come rickey s crouch tends to exaggerate that i think a great player to watch if you forget who he is unbiased hmmm bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	re aguilera causes cardiac arrest in article qi dinnemh phakt usc edu wagner phakt usc edu loren wagner writes in article apr bmw mayo edu bergerson mayo edu writes maybe you would rather have ron davis back the truly amazing thing was how many years this bum was the closer for the twins you d have thought they could find somebody better don daybell wagner usc edu going into the ninth with a run lead runs score runners on first and second rd throws there s a drive waaaaaayyyyyyy back puckett to the wall leaps he caught the ball what a catch by kirby twins win and rd gets the save his line ip walks hits and one robbed home run paul
rec.sport.baseball	re kevin rogers rogers is the one batter lefty in the bullpen dusty has also said he trusts rogers to get the final out in a ballgame where beck is unavailable so you might see a couple of saves for kevin then again if any of the regular rotation falters rogers is a possible candidate to start though this would appear less likely now that dave burba did well in an emergency start steven
rec.sport.baseball	torre the worst manager joe torre has to be the worst manager in baseball for anyone who didn t see sunday s game with a right hander pitching he decides to bench lankform a left handed hitter and play jordan and gilkey both right handers later in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts lankford a hitter with power in as a pinch runner and uses luis alicea a hitter with no power as a pinch hitter what the hell is he thinking earlier in the game in an interview about acquiring mark whiten he commented how fortunate the cardinals were to get whiten and that whiten would be a regular even though this meant that gilkey would be hurt but torre said he liked gilkey coming off the bench gilkey hit over last year what does he have to do to start the guy would be starting on most every team in the league furthermore in sundays game when lankford was thrown out at the plate the replay showed bucky dent the third base coach looking down the line and waving lankford home i can t take this anymore brian a very distressed cardinal fan brian landmann georgia institute of technology internet gt a prism gatech edu
rec.sport.baseball	re brien taylor where is he last year brein taylor was in a ball probably at tampa in the florida state league i believe he began this year in aa which is albany hopefully george won t rush him and he ll be allowed to progress at his own rate to aaa and then to the bronx this guy is the real thing jonathan alboum uva
rec.sport.baseball	wfan does any one out there listen to wfan for those of you who do not know what i am talking about it is an all sports radio staion in new york on a clear night the signal reaches up and down the east coast in particular i want to know how len berman and mike lupica s show is i go to school in virginia so i can t listen when there are on during the day just wondering jonathan alboum uva ps did any one see steve sommers on hours last night the chief was on too doing rangers round up it was pretty neat shmoozing s p o r t s on tv
rec.sport.baseball	orioles phillies red sox can someone send me ticket ordering information for the following teams baltimore philadelphia and boston also if you have a home schedule available can you tell me the dates for all home games between july aug and between aug sept and if any of these games are promotion nights or special discount nights thanks ron ps and also who the opponents are for these games do not reply to this account please reply to ronc vnet ibm com ibm canada lab database technology associate development analyst on astelletto tie line internal mail tor
rec.sport.baseball	re pleasant yankee surprises in article netnews upenn edu sepinwal mail sas upenn edu alan sepinwall writes and now the not so pleasant surprises tartabull the book on tartabull was keep him healthy and he ll produce well he hasn t done too much so far sure he s hit a few homers but those were all solo shots and he hasn t gotten any of the big rbis that your cleanup man is supposed to give you then again he had a slow start last year once he got off the dl that is and turned into a one man wrecking crew see you in the series alan let s see april th less than at bats and you claim that he hasn t done too much so far cut this guy some slack danny will produce this year it s scary to think just how much he ll produce if he were to stay healthy all year the yanks have a lot going for them this year good starting rotation good bullpen good defense and a good lineup also i like buck showalter frank howard on st is also a good move everything sounds good so far if the yanks stay healthy they have a good chance at winning the pennant this is the most fun i ve had watching the yanks since bobby
rec.sport.baseball	old predictions to laugh at oops i came across this file from last year thought you might enjoy some of these thoughts the predictions were made on the date indicated they are largely out of order june tedward cs cornell edu me what have i done i computed the expected winning percentage for each team from their obp total bases and runs allowed i use the basic rc formula and the pythagorean projection i then compare this with their actual winning percentage all stats through june team obp tb ra w l xwp diff baltimore boston toronto new york milwaukee detroit cleveland minnesota oakland texas chicago california kansas city seattle you all know how things turned out the orioles red sox and yankees all disappeared the jays and tigers continued at essentially the expected pace the brewers and indians cranked in the second half the rangers predictably took a dive that shouldn t have surprised anybody meanwhile as predicted the mariners dropped behind the angels and royals they clearly didn t deserve the record in june the white sox and a s upped their game a bit while the twins dropped off a little but for the most part things were as expected okay so there were a few blatant errors but for a predictive calculation i thought this did pretty well from cavgeoe yalevm ycc yale edu tue mar the braves insert kent mercker into the starting rotation sometime this year bielecki is traded or released lei brandt becomes the fifth starter and the best bullpen in baseball has pena berenguer stanton wohlers freeman and pete smith who spot starts as well hm pete smith made the rotation instead of mercker and bielecki wasn t released until the end of the year i won t comment on the bullpen jeff reardon blauser wins the starting shortstop job outright by the end of may bream goes on the dl and klesko goes on a nice hitting honeymoon a la gregg jefferies in platooning with hunter mitchell wins the center field job a bit later all star break and nixon stays on as a valuable pinch runner lonnie is released unless the braves find a taker in a trade right on blauser wrong on bream and mitchell a bit early on lonnie as with bielecki didn t pick sanders did anybody managers to be fired this year in chronological order fregosi showalter valentine riddoch three of them went right showalter is still around and likely to stick it seems from mattel auto trol com mattel auto trol com tue mar bonds gets traded from bucs for some young talent nope they won the division and so kept him for a shot at the playoffs mets win division well they didn t finish last atlanta repeats in the west got that one right yankees surprise everyone but finish second behind toronto nope dwight gooden wins but is surpassed by saberhagen who wins i guess this is why you picked the mets to win huh roger clemens is injured early in the season tsk tsk not nice to predict something like this strawberry fails to hit even home runs and is often injured due to dodgers drop out of race you got that right and my response from tedward tue mar hmph can tell you are a mets fan do you mind if i make some counter predictions against yours they follow mets come in third behind pittsburgh and montreal okay so the mets finished fifth but i got the pirates and expos right the yankees offense and pitching flounders dropping them to fourth place in the al east boston wins games the division the pennant and the world series first half dead on second half ummm i m a sox fan go easy on me dwight gooden rushes his comeback gets blown out and goes on the dl from may through mid july saberhagen runs a record wfan criticizes the mets for giving away that great talent jefferies who has a solid year in kc so i got my predictions for gooden and saberhagen reversed i was at least close and was right about jefferies though i don t know has wfan criticized the jefferies trade roger clemens wins another cy as well as games close no cigar in article udqceao vpeii li andrew cmu edu al x andrew cmu edu amit likhyani writes excerpts from netnews rec sport baseball apr re nl east smiley trade s cavgeoe yalevm ycc yale ops projected for hojo i will streak naked down forbes avenue if hojo does not muster more than a ops something is wrong with that projection some predictions need no introduction from navarra casbah acns nwu edu mon apr from tedward cs cornell edu do you care to put your prediction down for posterity you predict mark grace will get rbis i say you are out of your mind that is almost impossible for a hr type guy batting behind dawson who kills most of the rallies he doesn t finish why do you say that mark has driven in and last year mark was batting second primarily and it was his worse year average wise since he is batting either rd or th this year i predict he will be back up to his previous standards i think he will be better rbi s is not that much of a stretch sometimes us statheads get lucky grace didn t hit behind dawson the entire season but he also finished with only rbis from nss midway uchicago edu tue may the most ballsy prediction ever mark mcgwire will hit or more hrs this year nope he slowed down and the injury finished him off didn t even reach but a ballsy prediction nonetheless from ecaxron mars lerc nasa gov thu may baltimore will not fade they will not win the division this year but they will finish within five games i find the prospect of two orioles winning each easier to comprehend than that of two sox no offense i think their pitching is about as good as the division has to offer the orioles finished seven games out none of them won though mussina might have had a chance with better relief and more starts nobody else in the division is worth a darn they all finish a minimum of fifteen games out the tribe that s another reason to watch baltimore this year and next they won t waste many of those games against the rest of the division except for the brewers who you probably forgot you were right the rest of the division was thoroughly mediocre the yankees and indians led with wins the red sox trailed with wins none were horrible but four were five or more games below from djohnson cayley uwaterloo ca david johnson date thu aug gmt right that was me i never said the jays were a cinch to clinch it but i said that milwaukee will be more of a threat than baltimore i do think that toronto should win it but after i don t consider anything a cinch unless you have something like a game lead with games to go i do think that the jays have the best talented team in the al east and if we had a good or even average manager we might have a bigger lead right now i also think that the orioles will not play much better than baseball for the rest of the season you win from king cogsci ucsd edu thu nov in article nov cs cornell edu you write indians the first and only season ever prediction the cleveland indians will win or more games next year you were right from stvjas meteor wisc edu fri sep jose rijo will win the cy young award if he is healthy enough to go at least ip who would have thought he would try to steal a base why risk such an injury he had ip but didn t win the cy young maddux surprised all the orioles will win games in at least of the next years probably the last and their pitching staff will have a team era among the best in the al in at least of the next years but not necessarily all the same years as they win this one will take a long time to verify i don t think i want to wait that long but they won games last year and they were fifth in the league in era not a bad start ben mcdonald will not challenge for an era title in the next years nor will he have victories either year by challenge i mean finish among the leaders being among the leaders before the season is done doesn t count he will probably never be the pitcher he was hyped to be but is still a decent starter to have looks like it he wasn t bad last year just too consistent to be an ace so far this year looks like more of the same the phillies will give up many fewer walks if when they get rid of their bullpen coach ryan i am not predicting when or whether they will get rid of him and you will have to give the team a little bit of time to adjust before seeing the radical change they would have a fine pitching staff if they would just steal ray miller away from pittsburg the white sox seem to have the same problem but not as bad i honestly can t say did they get rid of him their bb totals were down last year ricky jordan will have rbi if he starts games hitting in the or or spot in any lineup or the spot in a lineup with very good obp in the hitters this applies for each of the next years i just don t think he s that good billy ripken will never again hit over with ab so far so good i m definitely not waiting to check this one from panix spira cmcl nyu edu fri sep no matter what lou gorman and his scouts say paul quantrill will never ever be an adequate major league starter never i have never seen a starting pitcher who can only strike out per innings at aaa be successful in the majors current plans seem to be to use quantrill in long relief he has a rubber arm and unusual delivery he might be decent in that role from lyle ecn purdue edu sat sep m v p a l frank thomas n l hal morris division winners a l east baltimore orioles a l west chicago white sox a l pennant chicago white sox n l east st louis cardinals n l west cincinatti reds n l pennant cincinatti reds w s champion cincinatti reds wrong on all of the above hal morris and my favorites from tedward sun oct belle will not walk as many as times in belle will hit more hr than he has walks in belle hit hr last year walking times but five of those were intentional okay so i exaggerate but i might have been right from trn strdev jhuapl edu tue mar are the o s going to sign cal of is eli s wallet welded shut outgoing money only wide open for incoming cash my prediction which you may make note of valentine is that eli jacobs will defer any serious negotiations on cal ripken s contract until the season is over eli will give cal every opportunity to have his stats tumble a bit from last year s pace before coming forth with an offer despite claims that op cy was designed to cal s strength my feeling is that the foot left center canyon will cut down on cal s power stats after all it s hard to credibly to offer million year to an all star game mvp al mvp gold glove shortstop baseball deity but it d be a lot easier to offer a similar salary to an obviously declining but above average shortstop who had a career year one full season ago of course if cal does match his numbers then eli is going to be faced with a rather huge and expensive problem how much did cal sign for when did he sign if i remember correctly he got a rather hefty contract despite a weak season and finally from jpalmer uwovax uwo ca thu sep generally because of expansion in there will be a lot of mediocre talent hanging around much of it will not make it as the expansion teams look for younger talent around which to build their teams my specific predictions as of april jim acker and cory snider will be selling aluminum siding snyder is still in sf acker is gone neither charlie kerfeld nor vance lovelace presently in tiger aa but formerly big leaguers will be playing professional ball they aren t in the majors nor will dave rozema who says he s keeping in shape with a hope for another shot with expansion never heard of him shawn hare and jody hurst will be in the major leagues they are outfielders in the tiger minor league system i don t think they are in the majors ron hassey will be a minor league manager with the yankees dunno what happened to him it will be bye bye for balboni if he s still around he s stuck in the minors bo jackson will not be a starter hm with raines out bo looks to get a lot of pt gary huckaby will have moved to alaska permanently they re on the net and dave kirsch will return to canada to live hm thanks for listening valentine
rec.sport.baseball	i ve found the secret why are the red sox in first place eight games into the season they already have two wins each from clemens and viola clemens starts again tonight on three days rest what s up are the sox going with a four man rotation is this why hesketh was used in relief last night hm cheers valentine p s i was wrong the sox have already scored runs in two games this week they should reach without trouble i still think it s a fluke
rec.sport.baseball	re braves pitching updatedir sbp acad drake edu said in article adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes every single piece of evidence we can find points to major league baseball being offense defense a run scored is just as important as a run prevented of course a run scored is just as important as a run prevented just as a penny saved is a penny earned enough with the cliches it s not a cliche and unlike your comments below it s not a tautology it needn t have been true if every pitcher in baseball were essentially the same in quality i e if the variance of pitching ability were much smaller than the variance of batting ability then scoring runs would be much more important than preventing them simply because the ability to actively prevent runs would be much weaker my point is that if the braves starters are able to live up to their potential they won t need much offensive support if that s your point you should have said so what you in fact said was pitching and defense win championships and later pitching is the essence of baseball neither of which says what you are now claiming was your point and neither of which is true it seems to me that when quality pitchers take the mound the other teams score less runs the team that scores the most runs wins and you accuse sherri of mouthing cliches this puts the team with the better pitching at the advantage providing they can stop the opposing team from scoring runs a low scoring game would clearly benefit the braves it s not clear to me at all that this is true in high scoring games the team with the better offense wins a high percentage of the time in low scoring games the split is essentially regardless of team ability they should have many low scoring games due to their excellent pitching and below average hitting on the flip side if you had a starting lineup of great offensive players i would be arguing that this team would not need great pitchers i thought you said pitching and defense win championships and pitching is the essence of baseball david m tate dtate pitt edu greetings sir with bat not quick member iie orsa tims sabr hands not soft eye not discerning and in denver they call you a slugger the big catullus galarraga and compare you to my own mattingly
rec.sport.baseball	re notes on jays vs indians series substituting irony for brains bruce klopfenstein said dtate pitt edu david m tate writes of course they left rbis off we re comparing alomar the individual with baerga the individual so only individual stats count i forgot most runs are scored by players stealing home so rbi don t count for anything uh right you also forgot that you can t get an rbi barring a hr with nobody on base what fraction of all runs come on solo hr most runs are scored because there happened to be players on base when the batter did something good i use the phrase happened to be advisedly lots of people have tried to figure out who the players are who have the most ability to turn it up a notch in clutch rbi whatever situations and what they ve found is that there is no evidence that anyone has such an ability to any measurable extent there are no clutch hitters people who tend to do things that would cause an rbi if there were somebody on base end up getting rbis proportional to how many of their teammates obliged by being in position my mistake i agree david m tate dtate pitt edu greetings sir with bat not quick member iie orsa tims sabr hands not soft eye not discerning and in denver they call you a slugger the big catullus galarraga and compare you to my own mattingly
rec.sport.baseball	re spanky released in article apr sei cmu edu wp sei cmu edu william pollak writes deletions spanky isn t very good defensively anymore he s an offensive liability and judging from his outburst this winter after the bucs failed to sign drabek he s a jerk with his head in the sand tommy prince on the other hand can t hit in the paper simmons was citing the case of tom pagnozzi who never hit in the minors or majors but suddenly somehow learned how geez dal must have slipped something into ted s drink sometime comparing prince to pagnozzi offensively is laughable prince has never hit well in the minors and he s now years old i think pagnozzi was not a bad hitter in the minors i ll bring in the numbers tomorrow assuming i don t have another brain cramp and forget he had a very good year at louisville before coming up to the majors as i recall the hype on pagnozzi coming up in the organization was good hit decent fielding when he got to the majors and didn t hit as well as expected not as much playing time he became exhibit in nichols law of catcher defense and got the reputation as an outstanding defensive catcher it s not clear he ever learned to hit his four years with more than ab born july year ab ba slg oba no power less than league average walks peak year when he turned now declining if ted is going to invoke pagnozzi as a model for prince given that prince has underperformed pagnozzi in the minors it s not a rosy picture btw i m still unhappy with moving zeile who had the same reputation coming up in the cardinal organization as pagnozzi except that he was a much much better hitter to rd where he could be an average hitter and a below average fielder instead of a well above average hitter as an average or below average fielding catcher harold harold brooks hbrooks uiatma atmos uiuc edu national severe storms laboratory norman ok i used to work for a brewery too but i didn t drink on the job p bavasi on dal maxvill s view that florida can win the nl east in
rec.sport.baseball	re players rushed to majors i missed the original post but aren t the expos rushing alomost their entire team this year i am from montreal and am a fan but geez the expos rank th in salary only the rockies trail and someone at the average age would probably be in first year university corelmark
rec.sport.baseball	re cubs expos roster questions in article b f c de a msu oscs montana edu alird msu oscs montana edu writes in article apr vmsb is csupomona edu cvadrnlh vmsb is csupomona edu writes today cubs activated p mike harkey from dl whom did they move to make room for harkey also are delino deshields john wetteland of the expos on the dl thanks for anyone who can give me more info ken cal poly pomona wetteland is on the dl effective march or something like that rick wetteland comes off the dl on april rd and will be evaluated on the th he is throwing well and without pain on the side deshields is not on the dl he suffered from the chicken pox and lost this is the official total pounds he will be back hopefully next week walker will be back this tonight or tomorrow corelmark from montreal
rec.sport.baseball	re cubs expos roster questions to make room for harkey the cubs sent shawn boskie down to aaa
rec.sport.baseball	re astros are back in article c hhwv cvk austin ibm com marc yogi austin ibm com marc j stephenson writes keeping in line with the pessimists on the net i ll hold off on the astros being all the way back they could indeed contend but that would count on atlanta encountering some unforeseen problems such as injuries or keeping up their early season abysmal hitting while atlanta has the undisputed best starting rotation i feel that their relief staff may be suspect they don t have a real closer although mike stanton saves has been used in that role didn t stanton start off great last year and then falter despite this your point is well taken atlanta doesn t seem to have the same personality as a ny team thus is unlikely to self destruct for houston to take em atlanta needs to suffer some injuries particularly to their starting rotation astros relief corps holding together if doug jones keeps his changeup effective and xavier hernandez can be effective then it s passable there s no reasonable left handed help and the middle relief is iffy tom edens was expected to take over the joe boever setup man role but he s been injured and he was an expansion team acquisition anyway houston thought that boever would demand too much money so they let him go doug jones can lose his touch he went from cleveland s all star closer to the minors in a pretty short span from what i understand boever and murphy were considered expendable by the club houston felt that their positions could be filled by a number of players art doug jones is the key to houston s success he must have another great year for houston to challenge in the nl west lousey spring closer to the minors in a pretty short span right a strong rotation will take the pressure off of the troubling bullpen bit of shakiness at the fifth starter slot but that s basically normal taubensee anthony gonzalez and cedeno fulfilling some hitting potential anthony appears to be about there taubensee s swing looks a lot better this year solid knock against expos last night gonzalez is showing some early power and cedeno still has the loopiest swing this side of tim wallach the unsuspected strength of the lower part of the order has saved the club so far biggio and finley just aren t doing their job of getting on base instead of filling his role as an rbi man bagwell has had to assume biggio and finley s job biggio concerns me since he usually starts the season very strong on a side note are you at all concerned with the rumors concerning next year s uniform there is talk that their road uniform will be blech traditional grey with the word houston written across the chest if i m not mistaken their home uniforms may totally eliminate the color orange shiver mclane s favorite color is red so i m really upset the current unforms are dull and the new ones sound horrible i d like to see the uniform of the mid s return they may not have been pretty but houston had established a long precident of wearing the ugliest uniforms in baseball and i liked it end of the bargain remember two years ago a little relief goes a long way then they could win games but i doubt it i ll project them at wins astros fan since the days of staub morgan jackson aspromonte dierker marc stephenson ibm aws advanced workstations systems austin tx disclaimer the content of this posting is independent of official ibm position internet marc austin ibm com vnet marc at ausvmq ibm t l astros fan since the days of ryan scott smith cruz davis bass hatcher david s schwam university of houston st rp jetson uh edu
rec.sport.baseball	dave kingman for the hall of fame hi baseball fans so what do you say don t you think he deserves it i mean heck if dave winfield ho hum is seriously being considered for it as is lee smith ha then why don t we give dave kingman a chance or darrell evans yeah yeah after the hall of fame takes in them it can take in eddie murray and jeff reardon well in any case i am sick and tired mostly sick of everybody giving hall of fame consideration to players that are by today s standards marginal honestly ozzie smith and robin yount don t belong there they re both shortstops that just hung around for a long time big deal let s be a little more selective huh stop handing out these honors so liberally save them for the guys who really deserve it face it if something isn t done there will be little prestige in the hall of fame anymore when certain individuals believe that steve garvey or jack morris are potential candidates the absurdity is apparent gee can these guys even compare to the more likely future hall of famers like kirby puckett or nolan ryan steve
rec.sport.baseball	re seeking moe berg reference info in article c hvfs dw news cis umn edu lsmith deci cs umn edu lance squiddie smith writes in article apr vax clarku edu hhenderson vax clarku edu writes david tate writes also in particular a colleague of mine is looking for any information he can find on moe berg catcher linguist espion of ww any references or anecdotes for that matter would be appreciated moe berg my hero we were just talking about him on monday at the yankee game well there s a book about him that s just been reissued i think the title is moe berg athlete scholar spy by tom sewell and two other people whose names i forget sewell wrote the chapter on berg in danny peary s book cult baseball players this is a good source for some of the more famous anecdotes about berg also excellent is the section on him in bill gilbert s book they also served about baseball during wwii i m told berg s spy activities are mentioned in the recent book heisenberg s war his sister also wrote a book about moe that she self published the title is something like my brother morris berg it s mainly some of her memories and page after page of xerox copies of pictures and letters that moe had saved copies are kinda hard to find but the smith baseball library has one for those in minneapolis we have one here at berg s alma mater class of it s kind of a sour thing she disapproved of the job that sewell et al had done roger
rec.sport.baseball	texas ranger ticket info would someone please give me the address for texas ranger ticket orders thanks very much jim
rec.sport.baseball	re torre the worst manager from another not so distressed but still wondering about a few things cardinal fan in article hydra gatech edu gt a prism gatech edu brian r landmann writes joe torre has to be the worst manager in baseball he s not the greatest this is true for anyone who didn t see sunday s game i saw it with a right hander pitching he decides to bench lankform a left handed hitter and play jordan and gilkey both right handers lankford was hurt although the announcer said he told torre he could pinch hit if they needed him to later in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts lankford a hitter with power in as a pinch runner and uses luis alicea a hitter with no power as a pinch hitter what the hell is he thinking i wondered the same thing but giving joe the benefit of the doubt i d say he was thinking that lankford is hurt enough that he didn t trust his ability to bat effectively but he wants his speed on the bases so pinch run him alicea i was completely confused about maybe he had a good record hitting against that particular pitcher i don t know anybody got an idea earlier in the game in an interview about acquiring mark whiten he commented how fortunate the cardinals were to get whiten and that whiten would be a regular even though this meant that gilkey would be hurt but torre said he liked gilkey coming off the bench gilkey hit over last year what does he have to do to start the guy would be starting on most every team in the league well so far i haven t seen much to say whiten shouldn t be playing but it is too bad that gilkey is the odd man out when they play jordan ahead of him that i don t quite understand furthermore in sundays game when lankford was thrown out at the plate the replay showed bucky dent the third base coach looking down the line and waving lankford home yup i looked for this on the replay too if i m joe torre i m going to have a talk with bucky after the game on that one he s got lankford at third with todd zeile i believe a hot hitter coming up there s no reason to risk giving lankford the go sign in that situation unless he was sure the ball is going to the stands it s his job to watch the play develop he should have known larkin was there to back up a bad throw that seemed inexcusable in my book btw i saw dent do the same thing last year with zeile rounding third and going into a sure out at home in a critical situation on the replay there s dent waving him around it looks like this might be a serious problem the card s weren t good base runners at all last year and i wonder how much of the fault lies in the base coaching i can t take this anymore well i m still hanging in there go redbirds woof woof brian a very distressed cardinal fan brian landmann georgia institute of technology internet gt a prism gatech edu dick detweiler rdetweil hpdmd boi hp com
rec.sport.baseball	re dave kingman for the hall of fame in article apr news yale edu steve tomassi writes honestly ozzie smith and robin yount don t belong there they re both shortstops that just hung around for a long time big deal are you for real how many gold gloves does ozzie smith have if a guy hung around and hit homers a year for years wouldn t he be a given for the hall is defense not just as important and if robin yount couldn t hit why would he have stuck around long enough to get hits are you saying hits is a fluke hits is no big deal let s be a little more selective huh stop handing out these honors so liberally save them for the guys who really deserve it face it if something isn t done there will be little prestige in the hall of fame anymore when certain individuals believe that steve garvey or jack morris are potential candidates the absurdity is apparent gee can these guys even compare to i agree garvey and morris don t deserve it the more likely future hall of famers like kirby puckett or nolan ryan well based on your argument nolan ryan doesn t deserve the hall of fame he is just a right hander who stuck around for a long time and could throw hard very few game winning seasons lots of losing seasons lots of walks no cy young awards how does nolan ryan compare to a guy like steve carlton who dominated or major league seasons won divisons world series and won half of his teams games in he doesn t compare not even close kirby puckett hasn t done it long enough for me give me more seasons like he s been having then i ll think about it
rec.sport.baseball	re wfan in article apr virginia edu jja h virginia edu writes does any one out there listen to wfan for those of you who do not know what i am talking about it is an all sports radio staion in new york on a clear night the signal reaches up and down the east coast in particular i want to know how len berman and mike lupica s show is i go to school in virginia so i can t listen when there are on during the day just wondering the fan is an okay sports radio station but doesn t come close to the ultimate in sports radio wip in philadelphia the signal might not be as powerful but then again only stations in new york feel obligated to pollute everyone else s airwaves with a bunch of hoodlum mets fans complaining hours a day wip took two of your best sports jockeys too jody macdonald and steve fredericks wip is rockin with sports talk from am till midnight check it out anytime your within a few hours of philadelphia if i m not mistaken wip has the highest sports talk ratings in the nation rob p s the only nice thing about the fan is that they talk sports all night hopefully will begin to do that somewhat soon
rec.sport.baseball	re expanded nl strike zone was re a surfeit of offense it was my impression watching the mets rockies that umpires were calling strikes above the belt too but not as far up as the letters it would be nice if this were the case jay
rec.sport.baseball	fenway gif i was wondering if anyone had any kind of fenway park gif i would appreciate it if someone could send me one thanks in advance dan
rec.sport.baseball	re harry caray last night bill veeck cam to me in my dreams and this is what he said cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs scuk cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs cuck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck oh yeah he aqlso added that harry is a drunken idiot who shoulda stayed in st louis where his heart is but also added that fair weathered fans all like to be together i guess this is the reason harry is now a cub fan bud man note he never really left st louis jim walker go sox cubs suck
rec.sport.baseball	re old predictions to laugh at in article apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes oops i came across this file from last year thought you might enjoy some of these thoughts the predictions were made on the date indicated they are largely out of order much crap deleted managers to be fired this year in chronological order fregosi showalter valentine riddoch three of them went right showalter is still around and likely to stick it seems dead wrong last time i checked jim fregosi was still managing the phillies and doing quite a fine job thank you best record in baseball at my prediction for jim fregosi will win manager of the year in the nl don t flame me flame the bum who thinks he got fired last year pay attention kiddo
rec.sport.baseball	re dave kingman for the hall of fame steve tomassi writes hi baseball fans so what do you say don t you think he deserves it i mean heck if dave winfield ho hum is seriously being considered for it as is lee smith ha then why don t we give dave kingman a chance or darrell evans yeah yeah after the hall of fame takes in them it can take in eddie murray and jeff reardon well in any case i am sick and tired mostly sick of everybody giving hall of fame consideration to players that are by today s standards marginal honestly ozzie smith and robin yount don t belong there they re both shortstops that just hung around for a long time big deal let s be a little more selective huh stop handing out these honors so liberally save them for the guys who really deserve it face it if something isn t done there will be little prestige in the hall of fame anymore when certain individuals believe that steve garvey or jack morris are potential candidates the absurdity is apparent gee can these guys even compare to the more likely future hall of famers like kirby puckett or nolan ryan q steve what s the difference between nolan ryan and yount both have hung around for years and continue to post great stats why shouldn t dave kingman get into the hall or murray evens reardon and others what the hell do you have to do ask an opposing pitcher whether he thinks that winfield should be in the hall god pretty soon you ll be saying that cal ripken doesn t deserve to be in the hall then i ll flame you chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu neil peart c quick to judge quick to anger slow to understand ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand
rec.sport.baseball	re players rushed to majors in article apr holos uucp lbr holos uucp len reed writes in article c hq o g p tss com hanson tss com hanson loo writes didn t bob horner go straight from arizona state univ to the atlanta braves i remember he had one great month hitting dingers and then the next i heard he was in japan a month well he did have a short career compared to what one might have expected for such a highly touted prospect due to being injury prone overweight and having no work ethic but he certainly did not suffer from being rushed to the bigs sorry len this is exactly how he suffered from being rushed to the bigs being overweight and having no work ethic leading to being injury prone with nothing to loose might have been corrected in richmond did you intend a smiley after your comment this brings back the long suffering memories of pre chop braves fans who kept being promised the bob horner dale murphy back to back power slam who could stop that guess we ll never know p s rocky fans are there any yet is dale getting any playing time out there i plan to be at the game on june th they ll have to play him then read that to memory and process it russell earnest georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp allegra amd hplabs seismo ut ngp gatech prism re arpa russell earnest housing gatech edu
rec.sport.baseball	phillies mailing list anyone know of a phillies mailing list out there they don t get much coverage up here in grand rapids mi sob elaborate signature files are for people who aren t as busy as i am dh david hollebeek dholle ursa calvin edu
rec.sport.baseball	re do people want stats in article hpfcso fc hp com dougs hpfcso fc hp com doug steele wri tes this is a top posting for the al home runs hits batter team hrs batter team hits gonzalez tex baerga cle palmer tex phillips det did anyone think that texas would have the top two home run leaders at a given point in the season and neither one would be jose canseco steve steve casburn scasburn magnus acs ohio state edu i personally despair of results from anything but violent and ruthless truth telling that will work in the end even if slowly john maynard keynes
rec.sport.baseball	re white sox update i think lamont is tryin sax out in left because he is messing with his mind he is trying to stir loose the mental block that he has had sax was supposed to play in left last night but we were rained out it s not like we need to add any more outfielders to our team it s mental jimmy go sox cubs suck that s the white sox dontcha know
rec.sport.baseball	re cubs expos roster questions in article apr pavo concordia ca m klein pavo concordia ca corelmark wrote in article b f c de a msu oscs montana edu alird msu oscs montana edu writes in article apr vmsb is csupomona edu cvadrnlh vmsb is csupomona edu writes today cubs activated p mike harkey from dl whom did they move to make room for harkey also are delino deshields john wetteland of the expos on the dl thanks for anyone who can give me more info ken cal poly pomona wetteland is on the dl effective march or something like that rick the cubs sent boskie to iowa to make room for harkey jeff eastman jaeastman anl gov
rec.sport.baseball	re seeking moe berg reference info in article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david m tate writes i seem to have misplaced the baseball bibliography that was posted here recently that s what happens when you have to split a heap of disorganized files from one machine among two others could some kind soul repost the bibliography or mail me a copy also in particular a colleague of mine is looking for any information he can find on moe berg catcher linguist espion of ww any references or anecdotes for that matter would be appreciated dave i believe si had an in depth article on moe a while ago i remember that the article revealed some new facts regarding the secretive moe my si subscription expired this past february the second of two years that i received same therefore my guess is that the article appeared sometime in can anyone else be more definitive as to a date of the si article jerry
rec.sport.baseball	re the phillies deja vu in article apr cabell vcu edu csc imd cabell vcu edu ian m derby writes after reading my local paper today i found out that the phillies started the season at i am not as old as but i ve heard many talk about the serious choke job the phillies did that season they were ahead of the cardinals by games that season in mid august they managed to lose a bunch from then on and the cardinals took the division games ahead and lost it i hope this season is much different strictly from memory i think the phillies were something like ten games up with to go lost in a row and of last to lose to the cardinals seems impossible but thats how i remember it i also felt at the time that johnny callison of the phillies lost the mvp as a by product of their swoon jerry p s in a single team out of won the pennant no divisions
rec.sport.baseball	re orioles trivia in article apr hpcvaac cv hp com paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen writes in article apr galileo cc rochester edu sparky balsa lle rochester edu michael mueller writes hi all does anyone know who were the pitchers for the orioles that were referred to as the kiddy corp because they were so young steve barber chuck estrada jack fisher milt pappas this list brings to mind possible the worst trade since babe for nono nannette i e milt pappas for frank robinson i think in robinson proceeded to win the triple crown in and may have beaten out yaz in but was injured on a slide into second when he collided with the mighty al weis chisox jerry
rec.sport.baseball	dumb fans was re indians woofing in article bcc ee ohstpy mps ohio state edu letizia ohstpy mps ohio state edu writes do you mean just like reds fans have you listened to wlw anytime they open up the lines for fans to call talk about clueless idiots the broadcasters are just as bad too jl the new york talk shows are just awful in this regard people are constantly calling wfan and wabc with stuff like i was thinking why don t the yankees trade kaminicki and silvestri to seattle for ken griffey jr and randy johnson that would really help the team or do you think the yankees can get roger clemens the show hosts are pretty good about handling these guys but it s still annoying the best one was at the end of one show a caller started out with i was thinking why don t the yankees trade for and then the host hung up on him i cheered michael
rec.sport.baseball	re tigers in article rk vsanu miamiu bitnet ryan kearns rk vsanu miamiu bitnet writes i think that the detroit tigers are the greatest baseball organization of all time shameless woofing deleted on behalf of the rest of us tiger fans out here i appoligize for this shameless woofing we try to keep it to a minimum but we did win a game the other day so sometimes it s hard to control see phillies fans michael
rec.sport.baseball	missing subject header in article hydra gatech edu gt a prism gatech edu brian r landmann writes joe torre has to be the worst manager in baseball for anyone who didn t see sunday s game with a right hander pitching he decides to bench lankform a left handed hitter and play jordan and gilkey both right handers that s because lankford had a minor injury from a couple of games before that and was day to day only available as a pinchrunner later in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts lankford a hitter with power in as a pinch runner and uses luis alicea a hitter with no power as a pinch hitter what the hell is he thinking see above earlier in the game in an interview about acquiring mark whiten he commented how fortunate the cardinals were to get whiten and that whiten would be a regular even though this meant that gilkey would be hurt but torre said he liked gilkey coming off the bench gilkey hit over last year what does he have to do to start the guy would be starting on most every team in the league at the beginning of the interview torre also said lankford is the one outfield guy who s in there no matter what my guess is jordan will eventually end up being odd man out due to low on base percentage whiten was a great acquisition decent offense and great defense in rightfield but don t worry gilkey will be starting as soon as jordan or whiten displays an extended period of low offensive output
rec.sport.baseball	re dean palmer hurt edward ouellette edo casbah acns nwu edu wrote i think dean got hit by a pitched ball the other night he got pinch hit for and didn t play against baltimore tonight whats up with that is he hurt please tell me he s not he evidentally got hit in the elbow by a fernando pitch his arm swelled from the elbow to the wrist or something like that they took x rays of the arm and there is nothing damaged he missed the last game with the orioles but he is suppose to be ready for the next game hope this helps mike west west esd dl nec com
rec.sport.baseball	scoring runs was re notes on jays vs indians series in article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david m tate writes uh right you also forgot that you can t get an rbi barring a hr with nobody on base what fraction of all runs come on solo hr actually for the padres this year so far it s they are th in the league in hrs and all have been solo shots pythagorean projection puts them at winning percentage or need some pitching help fast good news though is that hurst has been throwing curveballs w o any pain threw pitches yesterday should be back in a couple of weeks maybe we can trade him to the yankees for militello dave dave demers demers cs ucsd edu computer science engineering demers cs ucsd bitnet uc san diego ucsd cs demers la jolla ca or fax
rec.sport.baseball	re pleasant yankee surprises in article netnews upenn edu sepinwal mail sas upenn edu alan sepinwall writes some pleasant and then some not so pleasant surprises about the edition of the bronx bombers so far first the pleasant spike owen all through spring training this guy was looking like the second coming of mike gallego but with even worse hitting now the guy is third in the major leagues in ba and he s ranked pretty high in total hits and runs scored i know it s still early in the season but he and pat kelly more on him in a minute have provided a lot of spark at the bottom of the order that s given the big guys mattingly tartabull o neill plenty of rbi opportunities let s hope he keeps this up pat kelly the guy is finally showing some of the ability that led stick michael to label him a star for the s i wouldn t go that far but kelly looks infinitely improved at bat i guess the tips he took from boggs in spring training really paid off huh and here i thought boggs would never do anything to help anybody besides himself and his glove like always has been terrific he and mattingly comprise the best defensive right side of the infield in all of baseball imho paul o neill we had to get rid of roberto kelly partly because he was under too much pressure in ny to be the next barry bonds he won t do that in cincy either and partly because he had this real unprofessional tendency to give up in the second half of the year i just felt that we could ve gotten more for him than o neill well so far o neill is turning out just fine he looks like he should be able to duplicate if not surpass mel hall s numbers from last year and he keeps opposing pitchers from pitching around tartabull now if only buck would play him against lefties some more to see what he can do wickman a friend made a comparison between wickman and jack morris they never have impressive stats but they always find some way to win although morris seems to be losing that ability i figured that wickman would be the least important part of the steve sax trade best trade since we got that ruth guy maybe winding up as a good middle reliever but i like what i ve seen so far he doesn t pitch pretty but he gets the job done key what s going on here key was just supposed to provide the rotation with some stability you know shore up the left side provide experience get maybe wins and here this guy is dominating everybody he faces who needs maddux or cone i ll take key any day and now the not so pleasant surprises spike owen sure he s hitting like crazy but the guy cannot field to save his life and they said he was brought in to provide defense velarde stankiewicz and even silvestri are better defensively than owen remember it s still early look for his offense to tail off and his defense to improve hopefully he has that rep because i heard that either last year or over the last years or something like that he has the third highest fielding percentage among major league shortstops behind c r and tony i m not gonna help this sorry mets team at all fernandez i do agree though that he has not looked all that impressive in the field thus far tartabull the book on tartabull was keep him healthy and he ll produce well he hasn t done too much so far sure he s hit a few homers but those were all solo shots and he hasn t gotten any of the big rbis that your cleanup man is supposed to give you then again he had a slow start last year once he got off the dl that is and turned into a one man wrecking crew late in the year so we ll see the bullpen ugh what happened we were supposed to have one of the most solid pens in the majors meanwhile the pen has already blown three saves maybe more i haven t checked the great howe farr lefty righty tandem farr s era is in the s or s and howe s is infinite i didn t think such a thing was possible but it is hopefully they ll get their acts together or else buck s gonna burn out the starters for fear that the bullpen ll blow a lead in the immortal words of the scooter holy cow seaver that johnny key guy can pitch can t he see you in the series alan
rec.sport.baseball	re torre the worst manager in article hydra gatech edu gt a prism gatech edu brian r landmann writes joe torre has to be the worst manager in baseball brian a very distressed cardinal fan no hal mcrae is the worst manager in baseball i ve never seen a guy who can waste talent like he can one of the best raw talent staffs in the league and he s still finding a way to lose i ll be surprised if he makes it through the next weeks unless drastic improvement is made an even more frustrated royals fan darin j keener dak s vma smsu edu
rec.sport.baseball	re dave kingman for the hall of fame in article c jbse kkk news udel edu philly ravel udel edu robert c hite writes are you for real how many gold gloves does ozzie smith have if a guy hung around and hit homers a year for years wouldn t he be a given for the hall is defense not just as important frankly no offense and defense are equally important but the pitcher is of the defense the primary role of every other player is on offense even shortstops are a bigger part of the offensive game than of the defensive game they might not do much with their part of the offense but that s another issue that being said i think both smith and yount deserve the hof they hit pretty well in addition to their defense cheers valentine
rec.sport.baseball	re the phillies deja vu jerry sheldev shel isc br com gerald lanza writes p s in a single team out of won the pennant no divisions make that ten not eight the mets and astros joined the n l in eric smith erics netcom com erics infoserv com ci
rec.sport.baseball	re old predictions to laugh at in article c jcrf krm news udel edu philly ravel udel edu robert c hite writes dead wrong last time i checked jim fregosi was still managing the phillies and doing quite a fine job thank you best record in baseball at look asshole i got him confused with somebody else i didn t flame you and i would appreciate it if you extended me the same courtesy no i don t know everything in the world does that surprise you valentine
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players in article qkkodinn f jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo a iglesias writes in article apr lafibm lafayette edu vb lafibm lafayette edu vb writes just wondering a friend and i were talking the other day and we were for some reason trying to come up with names of jewish baseball players past and present we weren t able to come up with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and maybe john lowenstein can anyone come up with any more i know it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this but humor us thanks for your help hank greenberg would have to be the most famous because his jewish faith actually affected his play missing late season or was it world series games because of yom kippur the other jewish hof er is rod carew who converted lowenstein is jewish as well as montana s only representative to the major leagues undeserving cy young award winner steve stone is jewish between stone koufax ken holtzman might have the wrong pitcher i m thinking of the one who threw a no hitter in both the al and nl and big ed reulbach that s quite a starting rotation moe berg can catch harry steinfeldt the b in the tinkers evers chance infield is stanky jewish or is that just a dave cohen kinda misinterpretation whatever doesn t look like he stuck around the majors too long ted frank thf kimbark uchicago edu i m sorry the card says moops the u of c law school standard disclaimers
rec.sport.baseball	re i ve found the secret in article apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes why are the red sox in first place eight games into the season they already have two wins each from clemens and viola clemens starts again tonight on three days rest what s up are the sox going with a four man rotation is this why hesketh was used in relief last night clemens is going on his normal four days rest last pitched saturday hesketh only pitched one inning yesterday afternoon his first outing since an aborted inning start days before so he should be plenty rested to go in his expected turn this saturday as the th starter not that this is a good thing of course i d like to see a well managed four man rotation with this team glenn waugaman digital equipment corporation littleton ma g waugaman nac enet dec com
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players in article apr lafibm lafayette edu vb lafibm lafayette edu vb writes just wondering a friend and i were talking the other day and we were for some reason trying to come up with names of jewish baseball players past and present we weren t able to come up with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and it s stankiewicz not stankowitz and he s not jewish he s polish by the way the correct pronunciation according to stanky himself is ston kev itch all the sportscasters get it wrong maybe john lowenstein can anyone come up with any more i know it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this but humor us thanks for your help the only other jewish ballplayer i can think of is ron blomberg who is best known as being the first dh to appear in a major league ballgame alan
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players in article apr lafibm lafayette edu vb lafibm lafayette edu vb writes just wondering a friend and i were talking the other day and we were for some reason trying to come up with names of jewish baseball players past and present we weren t able to come up with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and maybe john lowenstein can anyone come up with any more i know it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this but humor us thanks for your help hank greenberg sid gordon ron blomberg guess it goes from the sublime to the ridiculous
rec.sport.baseball	re old predictions to laugh at edward ted fischer writes robert c hite writes dead wrong last time i checked jim fregosi was still managing the phillies and doing quite a fine job thank you best record in baseball at look asshole i got him confused with somebody else i didn t flame you and i would appreciate it if you extended me the same courtesy what is your problem hite s post wasn t a flame it was a correction of your error your reply was a flame no i don t know everything in the world does that surprise you not in the least steve novak ban the bomb ban the pope steven advtech uswest com
rec.sport.baseball	re braves pitching updatedir in article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes in article apr pts mot com ep dn pts mot com writes this certainly passes the common sense test for me but is there any statistical evidence to say what percent of defense is pitching and what percent is fielding not yet i wish there were it s much more difficult to tease these apart than to tease apart scoring runs and preventing runs and thus we come to one of the true beauties of baseball these things along with many others will never be separated almost everything in baseball is situational and interdependent this is what allows us to carry on all the arguments that we have if everything could be explained and balanced on a statistical basis none of the wonder and mystery would be left why we might have to resort to just going out the ballyard and enjoy the game itself paul feeling a little anti stathead today we will stretch no farm animal beyond its natural length paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen hewlett packard home nw mckinley corvallis or a sabr member since
rec.sport.baseball	re a true story way to go omar in article apr esca com vigil esca com sandra vigil writes yesterday april th a friend and i were discussing the theory put forth by a local sports radio station personality that the commissioner less baseball owners had snuck a live ball into this years baseball games in an effort to increase home run numbers and attract fans it s always possible but if this is the case i think that there is some blatant discrimination going on here clearly selig is allowing the opposition to use pre baseballs against the dodgers well guess who stepped up to the plate for his first career grand slam last night against the jays none other than my boy it was truly a sight to behold and almost more impressive was that he also got an intentional walk we will stretch no farm animal beyond its natural length paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen hewlett packard home nw mckinley corvallis or a sabr member since
rec.sport.baseball	re and america s team is but why kingoz camelot bradley edu orin roth writes well officially it s the braves at least up until they started winning it was are they still officially if so why and how did they receive this label my understanding was that ted turner owner of the braves started running his tv station nationwide and started running all of his team s games on his nationwide tv station he dubbed his team america s team that is the only team at least at the time all of whose games could be seen across america now wor is nationwide out of beautiful secaucus but not all mets games are on wor wgn chicago and wsbk boston are two other superstations at least they are on the east coast i don t know how many cubs sox sox games they show hymie hymowitz cs jhu edu i ll be mellow when i m dead weird al yankovic you get your mellow laid back attitude from sonny the cuckoo bird josh about me
rec.sport.baseball	re super tough baseball trivia in article apr ncar ucar edu amj rsf atd ucar edu anthony michael jivoin writes in the bruce springsteen video glory days from the born in the usa album they show two quick shots of a baseball game on television in the bar bruce and the e street band are playing name the teams which stadium who is the pitcher what two batters go down swinging also at the end of the video bruce is throwing at a wooden strike zone and his last pitch a young boy lines a base hit into center as bruce and the kid walk of the field the kid asks him how he did today bruce mentions the team he was playing and that a certain player got him in the bottom of the ninth name the player and the team sandiego and graig nettles if anyone gets these i ll be impressed anthony m jivoin national center for atmospheric research rsf atd fl p o box boulder co
rec.sport.baseball	mlb standings and scores for sat apr th mlb standings and scores for satruday april th including yesterday s games national west won lost pct gb last streak home road san francisco giants won houston astros won atlanta braves lost los angeles dodgers won colorado rockies lost san diego padres won cincinnati reds lost national east philadelphia phillies lost pittsburgh pirates lost st louis cardinals lost new york mets won chicago cubs won montreal expos won florida marlins lost american west won lost pct gb last streak home road texas rangers lost california angels lost chicago white sox won minnesota twins won oakland athletics lost seattle mariners lost kansas city royals lost american east boston red sox lost new york yankees won detroit tigers won toronto blue jays lost cleveland indians won baltimore orioles won milwaukee brewers lost yesterday s scores idle teams listed in alphabetical order national league american league new york mets chicago white sox cincinnati reds boston red sox florida marlins california angels houston astros baltimore orioles philadelphia phillies kansas city royals chicago cubs minnesota twins colorado rockies seattle mariners montreal expos detroit tigers pittsburgh pirates toronto blue jays los angeles dodgers cleveland indians atlanta braves texas rangers san francisco giants new york yankees st louis cardinals oakland athletics ppd san diego padres milwaukee brewers rain joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players in article apr scott skidmore edu jrogoff scott skidmore edu jay rogoff writes there is a book that you can find in sale catalogues occasionally called jewish baseball stars and baseball mavin peter bjarkman has compiled a pretty definitive list of jewish ballplayers in the bigs i wish i hadn t sold my copy of jewish baseball stars it s a short shelf i e the one on top of the toilet tank special the writing in that books is so astonishingly awful every sportswriting cliche taken to the nth degree and then mangled that it s funny rusinow is the author i think roger
rec.sport.baseball	re phills vs pirates i hate to be the burden of bad news but i think i will this time the phillies usually play at either p m or p m eastern time for weekdays on sundays the time is usually p m eastern time boise is in idaho idaho is in part of the mountain time zone and in part of the pacific time zone the times that were given were for mountain time zone starts please check a map in case i am wrong but i am certain that boise is in the mountain time zone thanks for listening the shep
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish broadcasters was jewish baseball players in article c mu z hh unix amherst edu ddsokol unix amherst edu d daniel sokol writes roger lustig roger crux princeton edu wrote in article apr acad drake edu sbp acad drake edu writes in article c l zs n world std com eastgate world std com mark bernstein writes for that matter how many gentleman of the press box have been jewish the only jewish sportscaster that comes to mind is steve williams who had a phillies show on kyw in philadelphia in the s howard cosell is one who comes to mind gee d ya think len berman s jewish how about steve stone of wgn who does the cubs we already got him under pitchers overrated jewish or tony korhiezer and shirly povich maury s dad of the washington post probably is shirley p still alive just wondering roger danny
rec.sport.baseball	re let s talk phillies in article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes in article apr leland stanford edu eechen leland stanford edu emery ethan chen writes one phrase for you you thanks perhaps it s time to start rec sport baseball graffiti where the kiddies can go yell taunts and insults at each other and leave the rest of us in peace sherri nichols snichols adobe com well sherri i d agree with you except that most kiddies have more sense than to spew their obscenities in front of a group of adults i try to edit this newsgroup and feed it to one of the local elementary schools they have a group of students that just love baseball and are learning to use computers but i m telling you it s gotten to the point that i don t even edit the files anymore just read them and throw out the trash and thanks to all you people that think it s wonderful to include a swear word or two in your signature files that s really nice i have to read the whole article and then toss it out because of the sig don t get me wrong i know all the words you do and i ve even made up some of my own or i wouldn t be able to edit them out but this just doesn t seem to be the place a public forum to spew foul language sorry thanks to all you people that keep in mind there might be some decent young people interested in baseball and computers reading this newsgroup they enjoy your articles phil
rec.sport.baseball	re what s with all these scores in article qp m innfjg senator bedfellow mit edu cmk athena mit edu charles m kozierok writes in article apr news yale edu sean garrison writes stuff about upated inning scores deleted at just that exact time to see the message even results after the game is over are not necessary thanks to mr hernandez who posts daily standings and results here every day am i supposed to take that as a compliment or a put down just wondering i do this as a service to the entire baseball world on usenet especially for those in the east coast who can t get final scores for west coast games in their newspapers or late tv newscasts this is helpful to fans in other countries who either receive only weekly scores or updates by the week also many have requested for this kind of service previously but it was only available through bbs s or some pay news services by the way mine is free of charge and has no copyright restrictions if you want to send updates and scores set up a private mailing list and use that remember i only post final scores and the updated standings once a day to the rec sport baseball newsgroup other than that everything is done through private e mail currently there are people on my mailing list that branches off into other mailing lists available for many others and the list grows by an average of people a day if people on usenet really don t want to see the postings i do to rec sport baseball on a daily basis please just let me know if the response is overwhelming against the posts i won t do it anymore thanks for your time joseph hernandez joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers
rec.sport.baseball	re and america s team is but why in article kingoz camelot kingoz camelot bradley edu orin roth writes well officially it s the braves at least up until they started winning it was are they still officially if so why and how did they receive this label probably because everyone that is everyone who has cable can watch every braves game they are the only team that has all of its games broadcast nationwide and if you don t like your local team or you don t have a local team the braves can kind of become your local team because you can watch them every day i m outta here like vladimir alan what s this this is ice this is what happens to water when it gets too cold this this is kent this is what happens to people when they get too sexually frustrated val kilmer real genius
rec.sport.baseball	sandberg update won t be long now hi all you ryno fans and those interested todays chicago tribune had this written in it today in regards to ryne sandberg ryne sandberg is ahead of schedule in his recovery from a broken left hand and could be back in the lineup by may manager jim lefebvre said friday doctors cleared sandberg to swing a padded bat at a ball in his gloved hand i m not surprised his rehabilitation has been moved up said lefebvre he s a fast healer and he doesn t like being on the disabled list he s been running since he was hurt march and is in the best shape of his life may is his target date for getting back in the lineup hold on to your hats cub fans more later as information presents itself jeffery
rec.sport.baseball	how to keep score like the officials hello all i d like to learn how to keep score when i watch ball games using official scoring methods where can i get scoresheets and instructions on how to use them i appreciate it mike hofstadter s law it always takes michael wilson longer than you think even if you idoy crux cit cornell edu take into account hofstadter s law douglas hofstadter
rec.sport.baseball	ryno correction i made a mistake on the posted article been fighting food poisoning for last hours the second paragraph should state the following doctors cleared sandberg to swing a padded bat at a ball on a tee and to catch a ball in his gloved hand sorry for the error didn t know it until after posting jeffery
rec.sport.baseball	re defensive averages shortstop in article steph pegasus cs uiuc edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson writes smith ozzie the wizard s is the second highest year ever still very good but i don t like the way his numbers have declined every year in a few years may be a defensive liability that s rich ozzie smith a defensive liability brett rogers addison leland stanford edu
rec.sport.baseball	re surgery for hal morris and then cjkuo symantec com jimmy kuo quoth does it strike anyone else how silly it is to impose a game suspension on morris let s see i expect to be back june th how many games do we play before june th take me off the dl games before june th it would be a lot more meaningful if the suspension went into effect some number of games after he came back well either way the reds have to play a man down for days jason lee jplee oboe calpoly edu jlee cash busfac calpoly edu giants e i pi the most beautiful equation in mathematics magic for all sad words of tongue and pen the saddest are these number it might have been john greenleaf whittier
rec.sport.baseball	re and america s team is but why kingoz camelot bradley edu orin roth writes well my guess is because america loves underdogs every year no matter the cubs talent or the predictions they never as close to never as possible win anything over the years as the losing has mounted america has fallen in love with these perennial losers the cubs have more fans in chicago then some teams do worldwide the cubs have more fans worldwide than most of the teams in their division combined an aura of excitement surrounds the cubs at the beginning of the season like no one else including the ws champs it must be that eternal hope actually i admired the spirit of the fan at the cubs opener several years ago who held up a sign that said wait till next year eric smith he threatened me if it was a president of the erics netcom com united states you d investigate what s the erics infoserv com difference i m a comedian of the united states ci jerry seinfeld
rec.sport.baseball	re royals in randall moose randall informix com randall rhea writes the royals are darkness they are the void of our time when they play shame descends upon the land like a cold front from canada they are a humiliation to all who have lived and all who shall ever live they are utterly and completely doomed other than that i guess they re ok oh lighten up what depresses me is that they might actually finish last which i believe hasn t happened since their second season in never mind that gubizca is with a era gardner at our main recent acquisitions lind mcreynolds jose are averaging david cone is about how he was doing in kc before joining the mets several years ago our hitting sucks and our pitching has collapsed and we ve won one game at home they ve won more games in their first ten games than last year and brian mcrae is actually batting over the mendoza line rich
rec.sport.baseball	re defensive averages shortstop in article apr leland stanford edu addison leland stanford edu brett rogers writes in article steph pegasus cs uiuc edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson writes smith ozzie the wizard s is the second highest year ever still very good but i don t like the way his numbers have declined every year in a few years may be a defensive liability that s rich ozzie smith a defensive liability why not brooks robinson is a defensive liability too and ted williams is a weak hitter even great players decline as they age valentine
rec.sport.baseball	re tribune times in article c c ja amb unix amherst edu ddsokol unix amherst edu d daniel sokol writes pjtier ulkyvx louisville edu wrote is the chicago tribune baseball coverage any good does the new york times have daily coverage boxscores i don t know about the tribune but the times has daily coverage and boxscores of course they have special emphasis on the yankees and mets beware the original poster looks to be from louisville and chances are louisville gets the edition of the nytimes that is printed in chicago for the midwest this edition has boxscores only on monday and sunday and an extremely skimpy sports section few game summaries mostly just color stories bradley w brock department of mathematics rose hulman institute of technology resist not evil love your enemies brock nextwork rose hulman edu some nazarene carpenter
rec.sport.baseball	ozzie smith a defensive liability in article apr leland stanford edu addison leland stanford edu brett rogers writes in article steph pegasus cs uiuc edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson writes smith ozzie the wizard s is the second highest year ever still very good but i don t like the way his numbers have declined every year in a few years may be a defensive liability that s rich ozzie smith a defensive liability why do you expect him to remain the best shortstop in the game until he reaches his seventy third birthday or something why is it such a strange concept that a forty one year old ozzie smith might be a defensive liability in ted frank thf kimbark uchicago edu i m sorry the card says moops the u of c law school standard disclaimers
rec.sport.baseball	re phills vs pirates mlb m pit phi monday pittsburg at philadelphia pm tuesday pittsburg at philadelphia pm wednesday pittsburg at philadelphia pm friday philadelphia at pittsburg pm saturday philadelphia at pittsburg pm sunday philadelphia at pittsburg am friday pittsburg at philadelphia pm saturday pittsburg at philadelphia pm sunday pittsburg at philadelphia am monday philadelphia at pittsburg pm tuesday philadelphia at pittsburg pm wednesday philadelphia at pittsburg pm thursday philadelphia at pittsburg pm are these times correct they seem as if they are hrs ahead of the usual tiems for these two teams the origin of that first message was boise which is on central time p tierney whoops i meant mountain time p tierney
rec.sport.baseball	re defensive averages shortstop in article apr leland stanford edu addison leland stanford edu brett rogers writes in article steph pegasus cs uiuc edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu dale stephenson writes smith ozzie the wizard s is the second highest year ever still very good but i don t like the way his numbers have declined every year in a few years may be a defensive liability that s rich ozzie smith a defensive liability why do you suppose he s immune to the ravages of time he s in a few years he ll be he doesn t get to as many grounders as he used to and will get to fewer still as his legs go as they do on every human so far remember willie mays was a defensive liability at he end of his career too ditto mickey mantle ditto just about everyone else who played into their late s roger brett rogers addison leland stanford edu
rec.sport.baseball	re what s with all these scores in article qplh e g agate berkeley edu jtchern ocf berkeley edu joseph hernandez writes in article qp m innfjg senator bedfellow mit edu cmk athena mit edu charles m kozierok writes in article apr news yale edu sean garrison writes stuff about upated inning scores deleted at just that exact time to see the message even results after the game is over are not necessary thanks to mr hernandez who posts daily standings and results here every day am i supposed to take that as a compliment or a put down just wondering it was meant entirely as a compliment i do this as a service to the entire baseball world on usenet especially for those in the east coast who can t get final scores for west coast games in their newspapers or late tv newscasts this is helpful to fans in other countries who either receive only weekly scores or updates by the week also many have requested for this kind of service previously but it was only available through bbs s or some pay news services by the way mine is free of charge and has no copyright restrictions i was not trying to criticize your service at all in fact i was trying to encourage others to use it i don t personally use it but i m sure others do and that was my point in posting there is no need for individuals to duplicate in an ad hoc fashion what you have already organized if you want to send updates and scores set up a private mailing list and use that remember i only post final scores and the updated standings once a day to the rec sport baseball newsgroup other than that everything is done through private e mail currently there are people on my mailing list that branches off into other mailing lists available for many others and the list grows by an average of people a day having one person such as yourself who does it is a great idea having do it is not that s all keep up the good work joseph charles
rec.sport.baseball	re and america s team is but why in article kingoz camelot kingoz camelot bradley edu orin roth writes well officially it s the braves at least up until they started winning it was are they still officially if so why and how did they receive this label there is no team repeat no team that is america s team this is a diverse country with mlb teams up north and there is no one team that is america s who would the other teams belong to and how does it happen well teams receive this monicker through success cowboys national exposure cubs or both braves it spreas aby successful advertising campaigns harry caray ted turner amd other dupe people into thinking that their representative teams are hip so that people will watch them on tv and buy their products arrogant local fans adapt the monicker and think that their team is the one that america idolize it comes down to dollars and egos p tierney
rec.sport.baseball	re kevin rogers hpcc rec sport baseball pjtier ulkyvx louisville edu pm apr what s up with kevin rogers of san francisco i thought he was slated to be the fifth starter but he s only gotten a few relief appearences are they going with four starters for now or is someone else the fifth thanks p tierney giant s have a five man rotation of john burkett trevor wilson bill swift jeff brantley and bud black dave burba black has been put on the day disables and dave burba will take his starts
rec.sport.baseball	mel hall has anyone heard anything about mel hall this season i d heard he wasn t with the yankees any more what happened to him doug dolven doug dolven warped cs montana edu gdd trex oscs montana edu
rec.sport.baseball	re the mets are rapists writes in the new book about the mets it talks about how they like to rape little girls before games sick jerks max is this the book by bob klapisch spelling the worst team money can buy if it is i wouldn t give the book or anything in it any value whatsoever klapisch wrote the book to make money obviously and sensational literature is going to sell a lot better than what he usually writes for the papers i m not calling him a liar but if there was any proof that a met player had raped a little girl before a game let alone doing it on a regular basis they would be in jail not shea for those people who do not know what the press is like in new york it is probably more cut throat than in just about any other part of the u s keith hernandez said it very well on espn a couple of days ago they would much rather mention a clubhouse fight than a two run homer in the ninth to win a game i do not read klapisch s news columns regularly but i do know that he has been accused before as being an instigator that enjoys hopefully for only professional reasons to drumb up a news story even if there isn t one there now as far as the confrontation with bobby bonilla a few days ago i almost totally blame bonilla no matter what a member of the press does and no matter how much of a putrid individual he might be that does not give a ballplayer the right to threaten a journalist personally i always thought that a beat writer that always follows a club around should report the news but not be looking to degrade a team i don t know whether to blame klapisch because that may be the only way to keep a job in new york
rec.sport.baseball	re mel hall warped cs montana edu writes has anyone heard anything about mel hall this season i d heard he wasn t with the yankees any more what happened to him doug dolven japan i think
rec.sport.baseball	re mel hall in article apr coe montana edu warped cs montana edu doug dolven writes has anyone heard anything about mel hall this season i d heard he wasn t with the yankees any more what happened to him doug dolven doug dolven warped cs montana edu gdd trex oscs montana edu mel hall signed with a japanese team mike mike columbia edu
rec.sport.baseball	re braves pitching updatedir in article c l c lc murdoch acc virginia edu david robert walker writes in article blue cis pitt edu traven pitt edu neal traven writes one also has to separate offense into batting and baserunning with the split probably somewhere around and i d give baserunning a little more credit than that maybe or even give a team of roberto alomar and a team of john oleruds identical batting stats which wouldn t be that unreasonable and even if you don t let roberto steal a single base they ll score a lot more than the oleruds by going first to third more often no offense gordon i wouldn t give baserunning that much value the above effect is clear but there are other effects as well if olerud hits a double any runner on first will score if alomar legs an extra base onto a hit in the gap the runner on first may need to hold at third thus olerud s doubles have more advancement value than alomar s of course alomar is more likely to score after hitting a double another reason not to give too much extra value to baserunning is that the runs created formulas work for very fast and very slow teams no team in the s ran much but some teams certainly had faster players than others still the current runs created formulas work just as well in the s for all teams bill james gives the senators as an example they used harmon killebrew regularly as a pinch runner and in stole bases with times caught stealing yet they scored slightly more runs than predicted by runs created david grabiner grabiner zariski harvard edu we are sorry but the number you have dialed is imaginary please rotate your phone degrees and try again disclaimer i speak for no one and no one speaks for me
rec.sport.baseball	re dave kingman for the hall of fame in article mssc k w gqe netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes i m no kingman fan just thought i d point out that he s the only player in history to have five three hr games joe carter has four eddie murray three mccovey and gehrig also three ruth mays foxx and dawson two each johnny mize had six three hr games which is the current record bob holt rjh allegra att com
rec.sport.baseball	re fenway gif i d love to see a shea stadium gif sean behind the bag vin scully
rec.sport.baseball	re what s with all these scores in article qplh e g agate berkeley edu jtchern ocf berkeley edu joseph hernandez wrote if people on usenet really don t want to see the postings i do to rec sport baseball on a daily basis please just let me know if the response is overwhelming against the posts i won t do it anymore thanks for your time joseph hernandez mr hernandez i apologize for the misunderstanding i explained that i know that it is essential for some fans to get scores here for they cannot get them elsewhere i have no problem with what you do posting scores after the games have been completed however like i said earlier i don t think it is a necessity to post scores during the middle of games like some others have come to practice sean
rec.sport.baseball	re all time best players in article apr ns cc lehigh edu jsr ns cc lehigh edu john stephen randolph writes in article apr bsu ucs mbstultz leo bsuvc bsu edu writes i ve recently been working on project to determine the greatest players at their respective postions my sources are total baseball james historical abstract the ballplayers biography word of mouth and my own biased opinions feel free to comment suggest flame whatever but i tried to be as objective as possible using statistical data not inlcuded for time convience s sake i judged on rel ba adj ops total average fielding range runs total player rating total baseball stolen bases for curiosity s sake tpr g and years played mvp b mike schmidt ed matthews one t in eddie mathews george brett wade boggs ron santo brooks robinson frank baker darrell evans pie traynor ray dandridge how can brooks be i think he would at least be ahead of ron santo because a small advantage in fielding ability comes nowhere near making up for the large difference in hitting their average seasons using their combined average ab bb per games years ab h r b b hr rbi tb bb avg obp slg ops santo robinson fielding we have per games at third years p a dp e pct santo robinson even if robinson s extra putouts assists and dps are taken to mean he was responsible for more outs in the field that doesn t make up for the extra outs he made at the plate not to mention the fewer total bases the difference of in ops should be decreased by about to account for wrigley but a difference is still considerable the thorn palmer ratings are adjusted adjusted stolen fielding total production batting runs base runs runs rating santo robinson usual disclaimers about t p s fr apply but they really shouldn t be way off the mark in this comparison at least it s better than fielding percentage carney lansford has a th best all time but fr dead last of all time also since this total rating compares players to league average instead of replacement level robinson should be awarded an extra or so for playing more games he had a great career but i would prefer santo s plus years of a replacement level bman but i would knock traynor off the list and replace him by stan hack that s a similar story hack s far better hitting outweighs traynor s superior fielding graig nettles and buddy bell would also be better choices imho of course though some recent net discussion supports this point of view cf andre dawson shouldn t that be right field bob holt rjh allegra att com
rec.sport.baseball	re braves pitching updatedir grabiner math harvard edu david grabiner writes in article c l c lc murdoch acc virginia edu david robert walker writes in article blue cis pitt edu traven pitt edu neal traven writes one also has to separate offense into batting and baserunning with the split probably somewhere around and i d give baserunning a little more credit than that maybe or even give a team of roberto alomar and a team of john oleruds identical batting stats which wouldn t be that unreasonable and even if you don t let roberto steal a single base they ll score a lot more than the oleruds by going first to third more often no offense gordon i wouldn t give baserunning that much value i meant to comment on this at the time there s just no way baserunning could be that important if it was runs created wouldn t be nearly as accurate as it is runs created is usually about accurate on a team level and there s a lot more than baserunning that has to account for the remaining percent greg
rec.sport.baseball	hits stolen second base disclaimer this is for fun in my computerized baseball game i keep track of a category called stolen hits defined as a play made that an average fielder would not make with average effort using the defensive averages posted by sherri nichols thanks sherri i ve figured out some defensive stats for the second basemen hits stolen have been redefined as plays kurt stillwell would not have made ok i realize that s unfair kurt s probably the victim of pitching staff fluke shots and a monster park factor but let s put it this way if we replaced every second baseman in the nl with someone with kurt s out making ability how many extra hits would go by to try and correlate it to reality a little more i ve calculated net hits stolen based on the number of outs made compared to what a league average fielder would make by the same method i ve calculated net double plays and net extra bases doubles and triples let by finally i throw all this into a a formula i call defensive contribution or dcon basically it represents the defensive contribution of a player i add this number to ops to get dops defense onbase plus slug which should represent the player s total contribution to the team so don t take it too seriously the formula for dcon appears at the end of this article the short version definition of terms hs hits stolen extra outs compared to kurt stillwell nhs net hits stolen extra outs compared to average fielder ndp net double plays extra double plays turned compared to avg fielder neb net extra bases extra bases prevented compared to avg fielder dcon defensive contribution bases and hits prevented as a rate dops dcon ops quick dirty measure of player s total contribution national league name hs nhs ndp neb dcon dops alicea l sandberg r thompson r lind j doran b deshields d harris l lemke m morandini m randolph w biggio c stillwell k ordered by dops sandberg alicea thompson deshields doran nl average biggio harris randolph morandini lemke lind stillwell american league name hs nhs ndp neb dcon dops fletcher s reed j ripken b baerga c blankenship l miller k alomar r knoblauch c bordick m kelly p whitaker l reynolds h sax s sojo l order by dops baerga alomar fletcher whitaker blankenship miller knoblauch reed bordick al average kelly ripken reynolds sojo sax more discussion dcon formula nhs ndp pa nhs ndp neb ab why such a bizzare formula basically it s designed to be added into the ops with the idea that a run prevented is as important as a run scored the extra outs are factored into obp while the extra bases removed are factored into slg that s why i used pa and ab as the divisors for more discussion see the post on hits stolen first base dale j stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information j golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	re old predictions to laugh at steve novak writes edward ted fischer writes robert c hite writes dead wrong last time i checked jim fregosi was still managing the phillies and doing quite a fine job thank you best record in baseball at look asshole i got him confused with somebody else i didn t flame you and i would appreciate it if you extended me the same courtesy what is your problem hite s post wasn t a flame it was a correction of your error that last was me steve novak i ve since read the entire original posting by hite mr fischer was actually restrained let mr hite hope he never makes some similar tiny mistake steve novak ban the bomb ban the pope steven advtech uswest com
rec.sport.baseball	re mel hall in article apr coe montana edu warped cs montana edu doug dolven writes has anyone heard anything about mel hall this season i d heard he wasn t with the yankees any more what happened to him doug dolven mel is alive and well and playing in japan the yanks let him go because he was asking for too much money and because they thought that they were going to get barry bonds making hall obsolete oopsie well at least they got o neill to replace the mel man i m outta here like vladimir alan scene from real genius where val kilmer is trying to pick up a gorgeous blonde val so if there s anything i can do for you or more to the point to you you just let me know blonde can you hammer a six inch spike through a board with your penis val not right now no blonde a girl s gotta have her standards she walks away
rec.sport.baseball	jack morris as of today april jack morris has lost his first three starts however the jays are doing well without him and injured dave stuart this is a credit to the rest of the pitching staff has jack lost a bit of his edge what is the worst start jack morris has had
rec.sport.baseball	re dodgers take straight from pirates in article qqob innqev mizar usc edu pcaster mizar usc edu dodger writes davis and strawberry attributed their turn arounds to reggie smith the dodger batting coach who flew in from florida three days ago and gave them a pep talk and some instruction davis was yesterday and had a couple more hits today strawberry had two hits yesterday and i believe he had two more today with two home runs foolish me and here i thought it had something to do with the fact that they were hitting against wakefield who had no kncukle to his ball that day and otto who has no stuff i wonder if reggie gave the same pep talk and instruction to the rest of the lineup who also suddenly came alive those two games the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	official rules of baseball isbn i am trying to get a copy of the official rules of baseball someone once sent me the isbn number of it but i have since lost it can anyone give me this information or tell me where i can find the book none of my local bookstores have it i m walking home from school and i m watching jack mckinney some men building a new house and the guy ham jmckinney tamu edu mering on the roof calls me a paranoid little weirdo in morse code this space emo philips for rent
rec.sport.baseball	re nl vs al doug roberts ken hill for nl mvp let s go spos
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players in article apr princeton edu roger astro princeton edu roger lustig writes in article apr husc harvard edu fry zariski harvard edu david fry writes once on jeopardy the category was jewish sports heros believe it or not the answer was this pitcher had four no hitters with the dodgers in the s the contestant said who is hank aaron alex trebek said something like i don t think hank aaron was a pitcher well it is a jewish name roger that s right remember hank greenberg
rec.sport.baseball	re mel hall in article apr coe montana edu warped cs montana edu doug dolven writes has anyone heard anything about mel hall this season i d heard he wasn t with the yankees any more what happened to him he is in japan playing baseball tom gwitt gwittt alleg edu
rec.sport.baseball	re sandberg runs rbis was re notes on jays vs indians series in article c jqby m a news rich bnr ca bratt crchh a nosubdomain nodomain john bratt writes rbis and runs scored are the two most important offensive statistics you can talk about obp and slg all you want but the fact remains the team that scores more runs wins the game flame away john bratt ok you asked for it i guess that doesn t bode well for the cubs then does it doug roberts willing to trade frank bolick for a bag of used baseballs let s go expos
rec.sport.baseball	re and america s team is but why kingoz camelot bradley edu orin roth writes well officially it s the braves at least up until they started winning it was are they still officially if so why and how did they receive this label unoffically but without a doubt america s team is the cubs why well my guess is because america loves underdogs every year no matter the cubs talent or the predictions they never as close to never as possible win anything over the years as the losing has mounted america has fallen in love with these perennial losers the cubs have more fans in chicago then some teams do worldwide the cubs have more fans worldwide than most of the teams in their division combined an aura of excitement surrounds the cubs at the beginning of the season like no one else including the ws champs it must be that eternal hope this is the year they ve got the talent they re off to a good start they ve got the pitching or hitting or whatever their strong point is at the time it s that inevitability that the cubs will eventually win the ws again when only god knows since it s been so long it could come at any time or it could be another years but until they do finally win and start winning consistently the cubs will remain america s lovable underdogs the cubs are america s team orin bradley u the defenition of the underdog is a team that has no talent and comes out of nowhere to contend the mets and orioles are prime examples not the cubs i root for the cubs because i feel sorry for them but basically they are dogs the pirates today are a great example of an underdog if the rockies and marlins compete they will be underdogs the north stars trip to the stanley cup finals was a good example of an underdog s journey the cubs have a good team this year and play in a weak division they are much less than america s team i m really a jester in disguise chintan amin the university of illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu neil peart c quick to judge quick to anger slow to understand ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand
rec.sport.baseball	tigers pound mariners were they palying football or baseball in detroit on saturday from looking at the school some people may think it was football between two games this week the tigers scored runs the offense can carry them i hope the pitching will hold out i was at camden yards yesterday everytime i looked up the score was getting higher what a great site it was to see the tigers kicking butt while enjoying a game at camden yards go tigers and go tony phillips
rec.sport.baseball	scott erickson does anyone have the scoop on scot erickson how long is he going to be out for
rec.sport.baseball	re and america s team is but why cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes the defenition of the underdog is a team that has no talent and comes out of nowhere to contend the mets and orioles are prime examples not the cubs sorry but it is virtually impossible to win a division with no talent over games i would amend your definition to underdog a team expected to lose but which wins thanks to underestimated talent dave
rec.sport.baseball	bosox win again the team record is today frank viola and rest of pitcher staff of boston red sox shutout chicago white sox it is red sox th win of this season so far red sox won all the games roger and frank v pitched and when other three starters were pitching tomorrow dopson will pitch again have a good first start and rocky second start i wonder that bosox can play over ball without roger and frank v
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players dave kingman is jewish bob comarow eisner decus org
rec.sport.baseball	re and america s team is but why in a previous article steinman me utoronto ca david steinman says cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes the defenition of the underdog is a team that has no talent and comes out of nowhere to contend the mets and orioles are prime examples not the cubs sorry but it is virtually impossible to win a division with no talent over games i would amend your definition to underdog a team expected to lose but which wins thanks to underestimated talent dave ok the mets and o s are good examples but what about the reds do you really think that anyone expected them to sweep the a s i know people who didn t even think they d win a game let alone win the series we proved them wrong though didn t we as for this year ignore their record now they ve had a rocky start and that has nothing to do with colorado they shall rise again the hunt for a reds october continues with all due respect to wlw bye michelson spring olympics champions road rally legged race rope pull snarf penny wars banner spirit cheer the michelson menace rides again don t you just love that intense nationalistic feeling in a residence hall
rec.sport.baseball	re notes on jays vs indians series in article c hpcv hl andy bgsu edu klopfens andy bgsu edu bruce klopfenstein writes cmk athena mit edu charles m kozierok writes in article apr csd newshost stanford edu nlu xenon stanford edu nelson lu writes guess which line is which ba obp slg ab h b b hr bb x y i just love how the alomar fans left rbis off this list give me a break a little delayed but in the interests of fairness stats from elias ba obp slg r hr rbi rni outs alomar baerga so we see that baerga has a large advantage in rbi runs batted in rni runners not driven in and outs john rickert rickert nextwork rose hulman edu
rec.sport.baseball	baseball spreads how does one read the betting spreads for baseball they tend to be something like which means it must not be runs thanks david rex wood davewood cs colorado edu university of colorado at boulder
rec.sport.baseball	rockies need some relief once again the rockies bullpen fell apart andy ashby pitched six somewhat shaky innings giving up just one run then game the dreaded relief three picthers combined to give up runs one each i believe in the th inning and blew the save opportunity final was vs expos despite their problems in the pen i think the rockies are a team that wont be taken lightly going into today s game the had the league s leading hitter and rbi man galarraga two of the leaders in stolen bases young and cole and increasingly strong starting pitching david rex wood davewood cs colorado edu university of colorado at boulder
rec.sport.baseball	re rockies need some relief in article apr colorado edu davewood bruno cs colorado edu david rex wood writes shaky innings giving up just one run then game the dreaded relief three picthers combined to give up runs one each i believe in the th inning be taken lightly going into today s game the had the league s leading geez can i type or what david rex wood davewood cs colorado edu university of colorado at boulder
rec.sport.baseball	re baseball spreads in article apr colorado edu davewood bruno cs colorado edu david rex wood writes how does one read the betting spreads for baseball they tend to be something like which means it must not be runs that spread means you bet on the underdog to win or on the favorite to win charles
rec.sport.baseball	re bosox win again the team record is in article jxu black clarku edu jxu black clarku edu dark wing duck writes today frank viola and rest of pitcher staff of boston red sox shutout chicago white sox it is red sox th win of this season so far red sox won all the games roger and frank v pitched and when other three starters were pitching tomorrow dopson will pitch again have a good first start and rocky second start i wonder that bosox can play over ball without roger and frank v as long as the yankees are in the same division the red sox will play better than baseball or the red sox can hire former east german swimming coaches to train them at the fine art of body building the red sox can use chinese women swimmers as a reference with the hawk the red sox definitely have a chance for the east this year he brings class work ethic and leadership to the park each day and he has a burning desire to play in the world series future hall of famer andre dawson will kick butt in boston from rockies country anthony m jivoin national center for atmospheric research rsf atd fl p o box boulder co
rec.sport.baseball	re royals in article spork camelot spork camelot bradley edu richard izzo writes b s about darkness deleted oh lighten up what depresses me is that they might actually finish last which i believe hasn t happened since their second season in nope the royals are the only team in the majors that have not finished in last place of course this doesn t include the marlins and the rockies but they have a good chance at finishing last also rich
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris in a previous article tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer says in article qr cinnpel skeena ucs ubc ca stlouis unixg ubc ca phill st louis writes jack morris starts have been like his playoff starts he has an era of in his starts what does luck have to do with a era he was lucky to get wins last year but he had an era of with a team that scored a lot of runs i would be happy if he could still pitch with an era of but he seems to be suffering from a total callapse bad pitchers are more prone to this total collapse than good pitchers they are closer to the chasm of mediocrity the smallest push and they completely lose their grip but good ones can collapse somewhat then come back the next year burleigh grimes went from wins and an era of or so in to and an era around in he pitched well for several more years carlton won and lost the year after his record source bill james historical baseball abstract and let s not forget john tudor who started and finished in he had a pretty bad era when you take busch stadium into account at the start of the season he gave up early runs in his games and would get stronger as the game went on thus giving up few runs in the last going he stays in the game and gets the win how else would he have pitched so many innings yup he used to dig himself a hole then get it together and stick in until the run support eventually came through this year he just hasn t gotten it together if i recall he had a era in the st half and a era in the nd half of last year hmmm runs in innings suppose he starts more games and winds up w innings pitched if he allows runs a game in the next innings he ll have a era or so at the end of the year i think i have his totals right this is going to be hard to come back from jack may be finished it is time to retire or be released if he does not return to his form from last year his million contract is an awful lot to eat my st hunch is that morris is very gutsy and that he may be pitching through an injury and not telling anyone my nd guess is that he will be banished to the bullpen the remainder of the season after a few more starts perhaps when stewart comes off the dl or will danny cox who went or scoreless innings against the tribe today start for morris he looks like a really good one gaston is scrambling to find starters i d imagine luckily the jays have a very good offense i don t think they would dare release him before the end of the year he ll just be replaced by stewart or cox doug fowler dxf po cwru edu me age now mommys and daddys other ever wonder if after casey relatives have to give lots of hugs love missed the rd strike in the poem support cause heaven is just a great he ran to first and made it big hug that lasts forever and ever
rec.sport.baseball	reds snap game losing streak redreport kevin mitchell s sacrifice fly in the eighth off brett saberhagen plated pitch runner cesar hernandez to give the reds a come from behind victory over new york hernandez ran for pinch hitter cecil espy who got the inning started with a solid single to right moved to second on bob kelly s infield sneaker down the third base line and to third on jeff branson s well placed bunt a rare show of excellent execution by the recently hapless reds offense cincinnati trailed after starter tim pugh blinked in the fifth he had only given up one hit in the first four innings a fourth inning lead off double by vince coleman coleman was left stranded at third by bobby bonilla after joe orselak popped to short orselak was pinch hitting for eddie murray who argued plate umpire kellogg s inside strike by drawing the line really he should know better than that murray and later manager jeff torborg ended up getting tossed the mets fifth started with a howard johnson s first pitch homer pugh must have been slightly shaken as he was popped on the next pitch by jeff kent s single then a ryan thompson liner to left was surprise misplayed by mitchell and turned into a rbi triple catcher hundley s grounder to the drawn in branson failed to bring thompson in then the play of the game occured saberhagen was due up so reds pitching coach larry rothschild met with the infield to discuss the possibility of a suicide squeeze they called it perfectly thompson was hung out to dry after pugh s first pitch pitch out and the threat ended isn t the national league great the reds picked up runs in the seventh to knot up the game after barry larkin s ground out mitchell chris sabo and randy milligan got back to back to back singles the third scoring mitchell reggie sanders then plated sabo with a long fly to center a double by oliver might have scored runner dan wilson but third base coach dave bristol threw up the stop sign too late wilson himself was hung out to dry killing the reds rally rob dibble came on in the ninth and pitched shakily with two outs and a runner on second bonilla came to the plate and all i could think of was the sunday game in late august last year when bonilla s three run dinger slapped a loss on dibble and spelled the beginning of the end for cinci s season bonilla ended up walking and hojo flied out to left to give the reds their first win in a week and earned dibble his third save in as many opportunities the win went to steve foster who got in what must be an ego boosting two perfect innings work striking out three saberhagen got the loss though i m a bit surprised he even pitched in the eighth i ll take it though the reds are now still the worst team in baseball with the royals victory today the mets are the line new york mets ab r h k bb lo coleman lf fernandez ss murray b orselak ph rf bonilla rf b johnson b kent b thompson cf hundley c saberhagen p totals hr johnson off pugh leading off fifth pitch b thompson off pugh in fifth out rbi picked off b coleman off pugh in fourth out on stranded at third rbi johnson thompson cincinnati reds ab r h k bb lo kelly cf branson b larkin ss mitchell lf dibble p sabo b milligan b wilson pr c sanders rf oliver c b pugh p roberts ph foster p espy ph hernandez pr lf totals oliver was stranded in the seventh after his double when wilson was run down b oliver off saberhagen out runner on first stranded rbi milligan sanders and mitchell sac branson sf sanders and mitchell ibb larkin gdp larkin new york cincinnati x pitching ip r er h k bb new york saberhagen l cincinnati pugh foster w dibble s pb wilson ejected murray torborg umps kellogg relliford runge demuth attendance t coming up the reds travel to pittsburgh for three then continue on into chicago for three next game is tuesday at expected to pitch are belcher vs tomlin rstimets
rec.sport.baseball	dimensional teams was re royals final run total in a previous article sweda css itd umich edu sean sweda says i ve been saying this for quite some time but being absent from the net for a while i figured i d stick my neck out a bit the royals will set the record for fewest runs scored by an al team since the inception of the dh rule p s any ideas what this is they will fall easily short of runs that s for damn sure i can t believe these media fools picking them to win the division like our tom gage of the detroit news claiming herk robinson is some kind of genius for the trades aquisitions he s made would you say the same thing about the dodgers in or true cone is probably as good as drysdale and they have no koufax but still these teams were winning with home run leaders who had very bad totals with lots of low scoring games etc and they didn t use relievers whereas jeff montgomery is having a super season for them that being said i still picked them th or so but i think a superb pitching team can win if they have enough hitting there s more of a chance of that i think than of a team with tremendous hitting but no pitching at least to me i wonder though which one do you people think would do better a team with johnson koufax in his prime seaver carlton and young in no real order as the starters with sutter fingers and lyle in the bullpen but with a puny offense assuming good defense like mazeroski maranville etc or a team with poor pitching but with an offense of cobb carew ruth gehrig mays schmidt wagner and bench again you pick the order i would postulate that the pitching one would be several games better by seasons end even the best hitters can succeed only of the time in their best years but a great pitcher can throw lots of shutouts taking all the players in their prime they might throw shutouts in a year and all the offense would have to do is get run across i wonder if someone with stratomatic or something could plug such all time teams into a regular season have it played and report the results i would love to see that doug fowler dxf po cwru edu me age now mommys and daddys other ever wonder if after casey relatives have to give lots of hugs love missed the rd strike in the poem support cause heaven is just a great he ran to first and made it big hug that lasts forever and ever
rec.sport.baseball	re early bbddd returns in article apr news cs brandeis edu st pip cc brandeis edu adam levin writes just curious if anyone has started to standout early in the season in the bb ddd this year a concerned fan of the bb ddd i am hoping to produce the first update of the bb ddd this week please send info about the most significant longest most critical etc home run that you have seen yet this season vince
rec.sport.baseball	re and america s team is but why in article kingoz camelot kingoz camelot bradley edu orin roth writes well officially it s the braves at least up until they started winning it was are they still officially if so why and how did they receive this label unoffically but without a doubt america s team is the cubs why orin bradley u i m really a jester in disguise sorry but i saw a survey somewhere that showed that america s favorite team is the damn yankees so much for the underdogs being loved obbaseball trivia cardinals have taken out of series from the yanks but have a losing record against them spring training games not counted shannon
rec.sport.baseball	montreal question what position does mike lansing play i cannot seem to find it anywhere thanks k keith j mullins o o p s c ooo ooo internet plymouth nh it takes a big man to cry but k mullin oz plymouth edu
rec.sport.baseball	detroit tigers the roar at michigan and trumbull should be loader than ever this year with mike illitch at the head and ernie harwell back at the booth the tiger bats will bang this summer already they have scored runs in two games and with fielder tettleton and deer i think they can win the division no pitching bull gully moore wells and krueger make up a decent staff that will keep the team into many games then there is henneman to close it out watch out boston toronto and baltimore the motor city kittys are back
rec.sport.baseball	three homer games and padres notes to all those out there wondering about who holds the record for three homer games ina career the answer is johnny mize in his career with the cards and the yanks he hit three times i am almost sure about this in case anyone is wondering the record for two homer games is held by babe ruth and is mize s record may not last for much longer because of juan gonzalez he has at least three games with three and maybe i know that he had at least two last year and one as a rookie i don t have any record books at college for me to check on though please let me know okay if i am wrong onto the padres is there anyone out there who follows them especial ly those with access to local news i don t here anything in los angeles and i can t get mcpaper consistently around here comment it looks as though san diego has gotten the better of the two deals that brought bell and plantier to the padres it has also forced the team to use darrell shermann of course plantier could get injured again or he could hit with the power of but with a lower average bell always could finish with and hrs essentially jerald clark s numbers leadoff comment craig shipley i get on base of the time if i m lucky at leadoff hell of the usual starters use gwynn he s got steals already is shipley starting because of an injury to stillwell though i haven t seen stillwell s name in any box scores anyway unless you are going to use shermann at leadoff then use gwynn he at lesat gets on base and this year is stealing bases sheffield comment though the season is early and stats mean nothing witness phillips batting currently but does sheffield have an injury or anythingelse wrong with him i just don t hear anything andy benes is he pitching like he did in the second half of or is this a flash of promise that he throws out evrey now and then has anyone seen him pitch the two good games score for today sunday april padres st louis padres sweep the cardinals as gwynn goes for with a homer sheffield and tueful also homer in a winning cause thanks for listening reading any comments kelly keach kkeach pomona claremont edu
rec.sport.baseball	re and america s team is but why in article c p xq gui me utoronto ca steinman me utoronto ca david steinman writes cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes the defenition of the underdog is a team that has no talent and comes out of nowhere to contend the mets and orioles are prime examples not the cubs sorry but it is virtually impossible to win a division with no talent over games well with players certainly however it is quite possible to win it all with no managerial talent cf blue jays david david shapiro people can call it a monkey but i felt like shapiro david yale edu i had a piano on my back all winter long shapiro minerva cis yale edu the piano is off my back maybe a trombone will be next stan belinda
rec.sport.baseball	request for al stats anyone have the al individual stats or where i can find them k
rec.sport.baseball	re montreal question in article apr oz plymouth edu k mullin oz plymouth edu mully writes what position does mike lansing play i cannot seem to find it anywhere thanks currently he s all over he played nd when deshields was out he was shifted to third when delino came back and today he played ss for a cold wil cordero his natural positions seem to be in the middle infield but they will seemingly find a spot for himm somewhere as long as his bat is hot p tierney
rec.sport.baseball	re detroit tigers david vergolini writes the roar at michigan and trumbull should be loader than ever this year with mike illitch at the head and ernie harwell back at the booth the tiger bats will bang this summer already they have scored runs in two games and with fielder tettleton and deer i think they can win the division no pitching bull gully moore wells and krueger make up a decent staff that will keep the team into many games yeah if the tigers can keep scoring runs a game if i m reading all this woofing correctly one midseason slump is going to pull this team out of contention like yogi says i ll believe when i believe it david j dwarner journalism indiana edu blue riddle productions it s on the rap is an art ep is coming out on tape this time for real e mail me for the
rec.sport.baseball	re detroit tigers in article qt f o o msuinfo cl msu edu vergolin euler lbs msu edu david vergolini writes the roar at michigan and trumbull should be loader than ever this year with mike illitch at the head and ernie harwell back at the booth the tiger bats will bang this summer already they have scored runs in two games and with fielder tettleton and deer i think they can win the division no pitching bull gully moore wells and krueger make up a decent staff that will keep the team into many games then there is henneman to close it out watch out boston toronto and baltimore the motor city kittys are back nice woofing or should i say meowing and yes the tiggers are a fun exciting team that i would pay to see but last year they went this year their offense is essentially the same and their pitching is at best essentially the same so why do you think they will suddenly improve to win the or so games which will be required to win the a l east what has changed that i don t see remember a win is worth as much in the standings as a win charles
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris in article apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu gspira nyx cs du edu greg spira writes howard wong mindlink bc ca howard wong writes has jack lost a bit of his edge what is the worst start jack morris has had uh jack lost his edge about years ago and has had only one above average year in the last again goes to prove that it is better to be good than lucky you can count on good tomorrow lucky seems to be prone to bad starts and a bad finish last year yes i am enjoying every last run he gives up who was it who said morris was a better signing than viola cheers valentine hey valentine i don t see boston with any world series rings on their fingers damn morris now has three and probably the hall of fame in his future therefore i would have to say toronto easily made the best signing and don t tell me boston will win this year they won t even be in the top in the division more like th shawn
rec.sport.baseball	re and america s team is but why in article c p yr gh news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes the defenition of the underdog is a team that has no talent and comes out of nowhere to contend the mets and orioles are prime examples uh i don t think you can call a team with tom seaver jerry koosman and nolan ryan on the pitching staff a team that has no talent they did come out of nowhere but some of the improvement was forseeable greg
rec.sport.baseball	re and america s team is but why in qsk d dck usenet ins cwru edu jdl po cwru edu justin d lowe writes in a previous article steinman me utoronto ca david steinman says cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes the defenition of the underdog is a team that has no talent and comes out of nowhere to contend the mets and orioles are prime examples not the cubs sorry but it is virtually impossible to win a division with no talent over games i would amend your definition to underdog a team expected to lose but which wins thanks to underestimated talent dave ok the mets and o s are good examples but what about the reds do you really think that anyone expected them to sweep the a s i know people who didn t even think they d win a game let alone win the series these people were very silly any team that gets to the world series can win the world series and anybody who ever expects a sweep is crazy if you put the best team in baseball in the series against the worst team in baseball the worst team would win at least a game most of the time and very well could win the series though the odds would certainly be against them greg
rec.sport.baseball	zane rescue us from simmons so far simmons looks like a total idiot zane smith should learn how to switchpitch and return from the dl i would rather have zane smith pitch right handed than have moeller pitch at all i am sure simmons was ready to say i told you so after otto had an impressive win last week now otto s latest debacle has restored simmon s reputation now he looks like he is back in his form when he had the al s highest era among starters four our sake not ted s sake i hope he pitches with a era for the rest of the season yeah right tomlin and merced are a bit disappointing they are still doing decently but considering the considerable amount of talent and maturity they have shown their first seasons they seem to have actually gotten a little bit worse tomlin was almost unhittable his rookie year against lefty batters merced had a very good oba his rookie year he showed a lot of concentration at the plate in his rookie year walk well he seems to be on the losing end tonight but i still think that walk desrved his contract leyland should accept a part of the blame for the lavalliere situation i can t understand his and management s fear of losing tom prince through waivers even if they do what s the use he is aright hander like slaught not a very smart platoon also i am blaming leyland in this case since he is hcurrently convinced that lavalliere is through while giving him way too much time last year in the regular season and the playoffs slaught should have played in all games he has a good average against right handed pitching didn t leyland and simmons forsee this last year and attempt to trade lavalliere last year itself any fool could tell them lavalliere wasn t very fit last year dennis moeller is scary candeleria well he is not going to have such a high era at the end of the season maybe it will be in range but million plus come on other than the customary home run giving stage patterson goes through for a few weeks patterson has served the pirates very well each year so far he seems to have pitched well for the rangers i think the pirates should have spent the money on patterson in stead the rookie batters well young has surprised me a bit with his instant impact other than that their excellent performance hasn t been too much of a surprise i think we should thank doughty for that rookie pitchers worse than expected especially cooke slaught how come he wasn t given a contract extension last year now his value has increased immensely lonnie smith well eric davis was signed for a comparable amount let s see eric can hit better he can run better he can field better now why didnt the pirates go after eric davis an injured davis is better than a healthy lonnie smith even if lonnnie smith gets some big hits this year he won t be an asset he has looked terrible on the bases and in the field management big big zero sauer has yet to make a forceful agreement in favor of revenue sharing he seems more concerned about pleasing that idiot danforth by preparing the team for a move to tampa bay alex cole fiasco the pirates infield and cf positions look good the rf and lf would have looked good if we could have gotten cole to replace two of the four outfielders eric davis van slyke and cole would have made a very respectable outfield even without eric davis thye pirates would have a respectable outfield with cole svan slyke and merced i think he should hit left handed against lefts in stead of switch hitting simmons did have options for the outfield ironically the biggest accomplishment of simmon s tenure was getting alex cole really cheap too bad compensatory draft picks for bonds forget it the pirates can rant and rave they will not get those picks as of now the issue is still being appealed now if this doesnt convince anyone that simmons and sauer are idiots nothing else will on a final note tim wakefield won t be as awful as he was in his last starts but don t count on him pitching like last year for the rest of the season also if the pirates are in contention towards rthe end of the season they will miss redus s clutch hitting and his speed he has peaked in the second half of the last seasons pravin ratnam
rec.sport.baseball	re torre the worst manager in article hydra gatech edu gt a prism gatech edu brian r landmann writes e later in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts lankford a hitter with power in as a pinch runner and uses luis alicea a hitter with no power as a pinch hitter what the helll is he thinking if memory serves me well alicea hit it and damn near tied the game torre obviously knows his players better than you do see y all at the ballyard go braves chop chop michael mule michael andre mule georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism gt e internet gt e prism gatech edu
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris in apr newshub ariel yorku ca cs ariel yorku ca shawn luddington writes hey valentine i don t see boston with any world series rings on their fingers damn morris now has three and probably the hall of fame in his future therefore i would have to say toronto easily made the best signing and don t tell me boston will win this year they won t even be in the top in the division more like th yeah valentine how many rings does clemens have nothin like good old fashioned canadian logic btw the only good thing i can say about the jay s rotation this year is that it could have been worse stewart might have stayed healthy cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time
rec.sport.baseball	militello update hey all you yankee fans who ve been knocking my prediction of baltimore you flooded my mailbox with cries of militello s good militello s good where is he i noticed he got skipped over after that oh so strong first outing he s not by any chance in columbus now is he please don t tell me you re relying on this guy to be the fourth not the fifth but the fourth starter on this brittle pitching staff as for the o s it s still early see y all at the ballyard go braves chop chop michael mule michael andre mule georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism gt e internet gt e prism gatech edu
rec.sport.baseball	re the mets are rapists todd karlin writes i do not read klapisch s news columns regularly but i do know that he has been accused before as being an instigator that enjoys hopefully for only professional reasons to drumb up a news story even if there isn t one there now as far as the confrontation with bobby bonilla a few days ago i almost totally blame bonilla no matter what a member of the press does and no matter how much of a putrid individual he might be that does not give a ballplayer the right to threaten a journalist bonilla wasn t threatening anyone he just wanted to give him the dollar tour david j dwarner journalism indiana edu blue riddle productions it s on the rap is an art ep is coming out on tape this time for real e mail me for the
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris in article apr newshub ariel yorku ca cs ariel yorku ca shawn luddington writes in article apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu gspira nyx cs du edu greg spira writes howard wong mindlink bc ca howard wong writes has jack lost a bit of his edge what is the worst start jack morris has had uh jack lost his edge about years ago and has had only one above average year in the last again goes to prove that it is better to be good than lucky you can count on good tomorrow lucky seems to be prone to bad starts and a bad finish last year yes i am enjoying every last run he gives up who was it who said morris was a better signing than viola hey valentine i don t see boston with any world series rings on their fingers oooooo cheap shot damn morris now has three and probably the hall of fame in his future who cares he had two of them before he came to toronto and if the jays had signed viola instead of morris it would have been frank who won and got the ring and he would be on his way to this year too therefore i would have to say toronto easily made the best signing your logic is curious and spurious there is no reason to believe that viola wouldn t have won as many games had he signed with toronto when you compare their stupid w l records be sure to compare their team s offensive averages too now looking at anything like the morris viola sweepstakes a year later is basically hindsight but there were plenty of reasons why it should have been apparent that viola was the better pitcher based on previous recent years and also based on age frank is almost years younger how many knew that people got caught up in the world series and then on morris wins last year wins are the stupidest most misleading statistic in baseball far worse than rbi or r that he won just means that the jays got him a lot of runs the only really valid retort to valentine is weren t the red sox trying to get morris too oh sure they said viola was their first choice afterwards but what should we have expected they would say and don t tell me boston will win this year they won t even be in the top in the division more like th if this is true it won t be for lack of contribution by viola so who cares charles
rec.sport.baseball	re montreal question in article apr oz plymouth edu k mullin oz plymouth edu mully writes what position does mike lansing play i cannot seem to find it anywhere thanks k keith j mullins o o p s c ooo ooo internet plymouth nh it takes a big man to cry but k mullin oz plymouth edu he s played nd and rd i also heard he can play short too shawn
rec.sport.baseball	re zane rescue us from simmons in my last message i wrote management big big zero sauer has yet to make a forceful agreement in favor of revenue sharing i meant argument instead of agreement also i think i should add a coouple of ted s positive achievements smiley trade was good for the pirates but i think ted could have gotten someone better than neagle cummings seems to be pretty good the cole trade was excellent but simmons has botched it up now this year s draft seems to have gone well for the pirates but then they lost high picks in the bonds fiasco oh well i should give up trying to prove that simmons is not a total idiot
rec.sport.baseball	twins games does anyone know if the twins games are broadcast in good ole ames iowa thanks all
rec.sport.baseball	bob knepper was damn right don t you guys think so i mean c mon what the heck are women doing even thinking of getting into baseball they cause so many problems just look at lisa olson remember that feisty reporter that entered the new england patriots locker room she started crying like a little girl i just don t think women belong in a man s sport before you smart guys flame me for this i know the given example was about football who cares it still applies to other male sports how can we have women umpires jeez look at pam postema just because she s a woman everybody on the face of the earth thinks it s great that she s getting an opportunity to ump if you even watched the games and had an iq greater than that of roast beef you d see that she is not nearly as good as most aaa umpires besides she is probably more worried about cracking a fingernail with a foul tip off of wade boggs bat or jose oquendo s bat either way there are too many complications austin jacobs bob knepper fan club member
rec.sport.baseball	attention anyone in syracuse ny or richmond va there are two conflicting reports about a pitcher that is either in the jays farm system or the braves his name is bill taylor he was picked up by the jays but had to be offered back to the braves before they were able to send him to the syracuse chiefs one report says that the braves took him back and assigned him to richmond the other says that he is on the chiefs roster which one is right
rec.sport.baseball	re what s with all these scores sean garrison writes alright i have one thing to say i don t know if it s just me but i thought this newsgroup is a place for discussion why must people constantly post these little messages about how a certain team is winning in a certain inning i mean come on how many people are so dependent on this newsgroup that they have to find out the scores mid game here cmk athena mit edu charles m kozierok writes amen i hear ya brother take a look at the timestamps on some of the posts you read sometime the propagation delays are significant often hours or even days and even people who have access to machines which are close to the poster on the network let s try weeks it is april th today and i just finished reading posts regarding the cleveland indians boating tragedy needless to say i don t want to read partial linescores of games played weeks ago as charles mentioned i excluded the quote join a mailing list if you want to woof i consider entering th inning scores as woofing thank you now to plug on and read the rest of the posts about spring training jim savoy university of lethbridge savoy hg uleth ca sigless and bible black
rec.sport.baseball	re bob knepper was damn right in article apr news yale edu austin jacobs writes don t you guys think so i mean c mon what the heck are women doing even thinking of getting into baseball they cause so many problems just look at lisa olson remember that feisty reporter that entered the new england patriots locker room she started crying like a little girl i just don t think women belong in a man s sport before you smart guys flame me for this i know the given example was about football who cares it still applies to other male sports how can we have women umpires jeez look at pam postema just because she s a woman everybody on the face of the earth thinks it s great that she s getting an opportunity to ump if you even watched the games and had an iq greater than that of roast beef you d see that she is not nearly as good as most aaa umpires besides she is probably more worried about cracking a fingernail with a foul tip off of wade boggs bat or jose oquendo s bat either way there are too many complications austin jacobs bob knepper fan club member someone tell me there s a hidden here somewhere david rex wood davewood cs colorado edu university of colorado at boulder
rec.sport.baseball	re zane rescue us from simmons in article sfovx o wb mium d andrew cmu edu mamatha devineni ratnam mr andrew cmu edu writes so far simmons looks like a total idiot leyland should accept a part of the blame for the lavalliere situation i can t understand his and management s fear of losing tom prince through waivers even if they do what s the use he is aright hander like slaught not a very smart platoon also i am blaming leyland in this case since he is hcurrently convinced that lavalliere is through while giving him way too much time last year in the regular season and the playoffs slaught should have played in all games he has a good average against right handed pitching didn t leyland and simmons forsee this last year and attempt to trade lavalliere last year itself any fool could tell them lavalliere wasn t very fit last year sorry but this is the biggest load of bunk i ve seen in a while a the pirates have been trying to trade lavalliere for some time now nobody was even vaguely interested b several other teams had made it known that they would grab prince who was out of options c lavalliere s release had nothing to do with him being through he was released because in the event of an injury to slaught lavalliere is no longer capable they believe of being the everyday catcher since slaught is as good against righties as he is against lefties the offense should actually improve with this move toby
rec.sport.baseball	re militello update in article hydra gatech edu gt e prism gatech edu michael andre mule writes hey all you yankee fans who ve been knocking my prediction of baltimore you flooded my mailbox with cries of militello s good militello s good where is he i noticed he got skipped over after that oh so strong first outing about as good as mussina s better than sutcliffe s and mcdonald s he s not by any chance in columbus now is he he s in the bullpen steinbrenner is in charge after all please don t tell me you re relying on this guy to be the fourth not the fifth but the fourth starter on this brittle pitching staff he s got the talent to be the th starter now and evetually the ace he was a higher ranked and generally better prospect than arthur rhodes who happens to be well hey the oriole s th starter as for the o s it s still early as for militello it s still early toby elliott
rec.sport.baseball	sam are you there to mr millitello listen sammy can you explain why buck pitched you in relief yesterday i figure no one would know this better than you yourself jason a miller some doctor guy p s tell bam bam he should ve made good on his thread to retire
rec.sport.baseball	re bonilla in article apr organpipe uug arizona edu krueger helium gas uug arizona edu theodore r krueger wrote isn t it funny that a white person calls comeone a nigger and gets banned for a year but a black person calls someone a faggot and there is no consequence ted ted you re missing a vital point as roger lustig pointed out in a previous response the reason why schott was banned from baseball was because she had been known to call and think in a racially biased manner on a constant basis such thoughts affected her hiring practices bonilla on the other hand was found to have mentioned this one word a single time if he had been known to go around criticizing homosexuals it would be a different story furthermore he is merely an athlete he doesn t have to hire anyone as schott had to do dave pallone the former nl umpire who is an admitted homosexual has decided to assist in a protest before a mets game at shea he like you thinks that bonilla should be suspended from baseball pallone is hoping for a year s suspension in my opinion that s downright ludicrous as howie rose on wfan said if you start suspending athletes who have mentioned a derogatory word even a single time under whatever conditions then you d probably have enough people remaining to play a three on three game now honestly if you truly analyze the differences between the two cases that you bring up in your article i would think that you d reconsider your thoughts sean behind the bag vin scully
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris in article apr newshub ariel yorku ca cs ariel yorku ca shawn luddington writes in article apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu gspira nyx cs du edu greg spira writes howard wong mindlink bc ca howard wong writes has jack lost a bit of his edge what is the worst start jack morris has had uh jack lost his edge about years ago and has had only one above average year in the last again goes to prove that it is better to be good than lucky you can count on good tomorrow lucky seems to be prone to bad starts and a bad finish last year yes i am enjoying every last run he gives up who was it who said morris was a better signing than viola cheers valentine hey valentine i don t see boston with any world series rings on their fingers damn morris now has three and probably the hall of fame in his future therefore i would have to say toronto easily made the best signing and don t tell me boston will win this year they won t even be in the top in the division more like th shawn gee i never knew valentine made a comment about how viola signing with boston was gonna bring a world series title to boston i don t think valentine ever said boston will win this year boy talk about sensitive insecure toronto fans in any case i think viola would have made a better signing why viola is younger and is left handed how many left handed starters does toronto have mike mike columbia edu
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players in article apr asd com scott asd com scott barman says wasn t ron bloomberg the former yankee who got the first base hit by a designated hitter jewish i have no idea nor do i care however i d like to point out that blomberg got the first plate appearance by a designated hitter and the first walk by a designated hitter i am not sure but i do not think that he also got the first hit by a designated hitter bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players in article c l vc r world std com eastgate world std com mark bernstein says which reminds me do they still serve kosher hot dogs at the new comiskey yup with onions of all things bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	re juggling dodgers in article mssc mx v c netcom com mss netcom com mark singer says lasorda juggled his lineup against the pirates friday night and from the results one might conclude that he will stick with the changes for a while butler reclaimed leadoff spot probably for the whole season davis wants to get his speed into play for last night piazza the kid is doing everything well very well strawberry the primadonna insists on batting cleanup how do you know this did lasorda say before the game here s the lineup i m using i m batting strawman fourth because the primadonna insists on batting cleanup if this is true note that i don t think it is lasorda should be fired for at least two reasons publicly humiliating his players knuckling under to his players wishes however i think that the more likely explanation is that lasorda wanted strawberry to bat fourth and that you hate strawberry bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	re let s talk phillies in article apr mgweed mgwhiz att com prg mgweed mgwhiz att com phil gunsul says i try to edit this newsgroup and feed it to one of the local elementary schools they have a group of students that just love baseball and are learning to use computers but i m telling you it s gotten to the point that i don t even edit the files anymore just read them and throw out the trash and thanks to all you people that think it s wonderful to include a swear word or two in your signature files that s really nice i have to read the whole article and then toss it out because of the sig duh why not just chop out the sig bob vesterman ps hey kids take all those pictures of dead presidents out of your parents wallets and mail them to bob vesterman c o dept of mathematics university of notre dame notre dame indiana
rec.sport.baseball	re mlb nba in article apr news yale edu sean garrison says i think that players salaries are getting way out of hand to the point that they re on a pace to become severely detrimental to baseball s future so you want to decrease players salaries so you want to increase owners salaries the two are equivalent bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	re usa mcweekly stats in article franjion spot colorado edu franjion spot colorado edu john franjione says also i have the impression from reading this group and bill james that elias is a bunch of money grubbing jerks whose mission is to charge as much as they can for baseball statistical info and bill james is not yeah sure do you own the bill james players rating book bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	re bosox win again the team record is in article apr ncar ucar edu amj rsf atd ucar edu anthony michael jivoin says with the hawk the red sox definitely have a chance for the east this year he brings class work ethic and leadership to the park each day too bad he doesn t bring the ability to hit pitch field or run bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	let s talk phillies the phillies salvaged their weekend series against the chicago cubs by beating them in a wild one at wrigley field sunday afternoon it was the phils only win in the three game series and was the first time the phillies have lost a series in the young season the phils jumped to a lead in the game thanks to john kruk run homers and two wes chamberlain homers however danny jackson and the phillies middle relief was unable to hold the lead mitch williams entered the game with the phillies leading however candy maldonado hit a ninth inning homerun to tie it in the th dave hollins hit a three run shot his first of the year to push the phils ahead to stay however in a shaky bottom of the th the cubs scored runs and had the tying runner on base when the cubs pinch hit randy myers for bob scanlan they were out of position players and myers bunted into a double play to end the game the phils bring their league leading record back to action tuesday wednesday and thursday against the padres
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris michael chen mike cunixf cc columbia edu wrote in any case i think viola would have made a better signing why viola is younger and is left handed how many left handed starters does toronto have well i agree that viola is a better signing however why does everyone say that you want lefthanded starters i understand lefthanded spot relievers even though they usually face more righthanded batters than lefthanded batters i just don t understand why people insist on lefthanded starters unless there is a park effect e g yankee stadium most batters in mlb are righthanded so righthanded starters will have the platoon advantage more often than lefthanded starters i guess one argument for lefty starters is that certain teams may be more vulnerable to lhp s than rhp s however this is probably only a factor in the postseason because teams seldom juggle their starters for this reason during the regular season i think you just want the best starters you can get regardless of whether they are lefties or righties lefthanded starters tend to have higher era s than righthanded starters precisely because managers go out of their way to start inferior lefties or perhaps because of the platoon advantage am i missing something here craig
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris in article apr newshub ariel yorku ca cs ariel yorku ca shawn luddington writes hey valentine i don t see boston with any world series rings on their fingers yah so damn morris now has three and probably the hall of fame in his future he certainly didn t earn his last one how many games did he blow in the world series all of the ones he started therefore i would have to say toronto easily made the best signing oh yes definitely therefore morris is better than clemens don t give me that shit if boston had alomar olerud henke and ward while toronto had rivera jack clark jeff reardon things would have looked a little different last fall give credit where credit is due this lavishing of praise on morris makes me sick and don t tell me boston will win this year they won t even be in the top in the division more like th i m willing to bet they don t finish sixth i m also willing to bet they don t finish first and if you give me odds i m willing to bet that they finish ahead of the blue jays valentine
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris in article qt ooinn gd senator bedfellow mit edu cmk athena mit edu charles m kozierok writes the only really valid retort to valentine is weren t the red sox trying to get morris too oh sure they said viola was their first choice afterwards but what should we have expected they would say lou wanted morris all along the idiot giving the man million to play with is like giving a five year old a loaded uzi with the safety off the only question is how many shots he will get off before somebody is wise enough to take it away and don t tell me boston will win this year they won t even be in the top in the division more like th if this is true it won t be for lack of contribution by viola so who cares i don t see why people expect boston to finish sixth the bottom four teams last year were essentially tied boston in seventh place had wins the yankees and indians tied for fourth place had wins now i should think it is obvious that the red sox improved more than the indians or tigers basically the red sox are stronger this year at b dh ss lf and rf they have healthier starting pitchers so far at least and better relievers i see no reason why they shouldn t win games meanwhile the indians are in shambles and the tigers still have no pitching they will win some blowouts but they will lose an awful lot of games too maybe the sox will play poorly win games and finish fifth but i think third or fourth place is more likely cheers valentine
rec.sport.baseball	re militello update in article hydra gatech edu gt e prism gatech edu michael andre mule writes hey all you yankee fans who ve been knocking my prediction of baltimore um how many games have the orioles won you flooded my mailbox with cries of militello s good militello s good he is or will be where is he i noticed he got skipped over after that oh so strong first outing he s not by any chance in columbus now is he please don t tell me you re relying on this guy to be the fourth not the fifth but the fourth starter on this brittle pitching staff no currently there s no room for him in the rotation key is having a most impressive april abbott is pitching well perez is back wickman has pitched his way into the rotation and is holding his spot with an outstanding performance his last time out and kamieniecki isn t doing too poorly himself if the yankees find themselves in need of a starter militello will get another chance until then he ll have to wait in line valentine
rec.sport.baseball	re bob knepper was damn right why did i get sucked into this in article apr news yale edu austin jacobs writes don t you guys think so i mean c mon what the heck are women doing even thinking of getting into baseball they cause so many problems just assuming you re serious i guess you d be surprised to hear that us guys don t think so i would guess that a tiny fraction of of the folks reading your post agree with it i kind of doubt that even you agree with it i m not going to go through your points one at a time because after all not many of them have anything at all to do with baseball i m only replying to this because you brought up pam postema the aaa umpire who sued is suing baseball on the grounds of sex discrimination because she wasn t promoted to the majors jeez look at pam postema just because she s a woman everybody on the face of the earth thinks it s great that she s getting an opportunity to ump if you even watched the games and had an iq greater than that of roast beef you d see that she is not nearly as good as most aaa umpires i ve never seen her ump a game i have no first hand experience with her ability as an umpire but i have seen her on talk shows and her point seems to be that she can call balls and strikes as well as any of the umpires and she knows the rulebook better than most it seems to me that she is missing the point and if that s how she sees the role of umpires in the game well i wouldn t promote her either the umpires primary role has nothing to do with calling baserunners safe or out hell joe lundy could do that their primary function is to maintain order in the game keep the game moving and keep the players from trying to kill each other umpires have to be extremely tough people that disqualifies most of us both men and women and if ms postema thinks that she deserves to be a major league umpire because of her command of the rulebook then i think that disqualifies her as well umpires need to command the game command of the rulebook is secondary dave eisen to succeed in the world it is not dkeisen leland stanford edu enough to be stupid you must also sequoia peripherals be well mannered voltaire home
rec.sport.baseball	re montreal question in article apr oz plymouth edu k mullin oz plymouth edu mully writes what position does mike lansing play i cannot seem to find it anywhere thanks he s a shortstop by training but he s been at second mostly and third this year for the expos dave demers demers cs ucsd edu computer science engineering demers cs ucsd bitnet uc san diego ucsd cs demers la jolla ca or fax
rec.sport.baseball	re let s talk phillies in article rvesterm vma cc nd edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes in article apr mgweed mgwhiz att com prg mgweed mgwhiz att com phil gunsul says ps hey kids take all those pictures of dead presidents out of your parents wallets and mail them to bob vesterman and send him a shift key too dave demers demers cs ucsd edu computer science engineering demers cs ucsd bitnet uc san diego ucsd cs demers la jolla ca or fax
rec.sport.baseball	re zane rescue us from simmons mamatha devineni ratnam mr andrew cmu edu writes so far simmons looks like a total idiot whatever you say i think it s just games into the season myself so i m going to wait a bit before calling names i am sure simmons was ready to say i told you so after otto had an impressive win last week now otto s latest debacle has restored simmons reputation now he looks like he is back in his form when he had the al s highest era among starters four our sake not ted s sake i hope he pitches with a era for the rest of the season yeah right i expect that dave otto will be a really bad pitcher and i have no idea why simmons ever wanted him on the other hand i expect him to release otto if he doesn t turn things around pretty fast btw otto s game score for that ip stinker was only which points out a problem with the method since otto s performance was infinitely bad and excruciatingly prolonged tomlin and merced are a bit disappointing they are still doing decently but considering the considerable amount of talent and maturity they have shown their first seasons they seem to have actually gotten a little bit worse i think merced s rookie year was a bit flukey but aren t you willing to give him some more at bats and tomlin a few more starts before acting so gloomy walk well he seems to be on the losing end tonight but i still think that walk desrved his contract no he didn t walk is a time bomb he has no stuff whatsoever and when the league finally realizes this it won t be pretty at all the rookie batters well young has surprised me a bit with his instant impact other than that their excellent performance hasn t been too much of a surprise i think we should thank doughty for that don t be so fast doughty is the guy who signed steve buechele which was a move that threatened to bury kevin young in the minors meanwhile i m not sure whether doughty or simmons signed martin as a six year free agent before the season rookie pitchers worse than expected especially cooke twice through the rotation and you ve given up yikes slaught how come he wasn t given a contract extension last year now his value has increased immensely but so has his age at least in baseball terms the useful half life of a year old injury prone catcher can t be much longer than a year lonnie smith well eric davis was signed for a comparable amount but he wanted to be a dodger and felt he had something to prove after his disastrous i don t think there was any chance for the bucs to sign him let s see eric can hit better he can run better he can field better now why didnt the pirates go after eric davis an injured davis is better than a healthy lonnie smith he certainly wasn t last year even if lonnnie smith gets some big hits this year he won t be an asset he has looked terrible on the bases and in the field hey that s the skates smith package deal anybody who acquires lonnie for his defense or base running particularly at this stage is a real weirdo management big big zero sauer has yet to make a forceful argument in favor of revenue sharing he seems more concerned about pleasing that idiot danforth by preparing the team for a move to tampa bay if that s the goal of the team ownership than i don t see why sauer gets a zero for making his boss happy i don t know what he has or hasn t said about revenue sharing so i can t comment there alex cole fiasco stuff deleted ironically the biggest accomplishment of simmons tenure was getting alex cole really cheap too bad that he gave him away in the expansion draft it s annoying but since leyland seems to have been pushing for them to retain jeff king it was probably unavoidable meanwhile i think bigger accomplishments of simmons tenure were getting some value for john smiley not trading real prospects for veterans down the stretch last year drafting well in letting the rookies show something in foley smith and candelaria were acquired to be replacement parts which means that even if fail it hasn t done serious damage to the bucs future compensatory draft picks for bonds forget it the pirates can rant and rave they will not get those picks as of now the issue is still being appealed does this mean that the bucs lost the initial arbitration case i never heard the outcome of this when will the final verdict be in on this now if this doesnt convince anyone that simmons and sauer are idiots nothing else will i m not sure who was the idiot in this case so i don t know who to blame it might have been doug danforth after all in fact i seriously suspect it was doug danforth who has shown his willingness to call the shots at exactly those moments when the gun is pointed at his feet btw i ve wondered whether my latest posts have been getting off site so if somebody known to impersonate e e cummings can see this would he drop me a short note jking
rec.sport.baseball	re dodger question the dodgers have been shopping harris to other teams in their quest for more left handed pitching so far no takers personally i think harris is a defensive liability and he has also led the team in past years for hitting into double plays or at least been among the leaders sharperson showed last year that if given a chance to play every day he can get the job done if sharpy played just one base every day say third he d also improve defensively wallach has helped tremendously on defense as has reed the improved defense is quite noticeable and is having an effect on the pitching staff both astacio and martinez were bailed out in recent starts by great defensive plays martinez pitched into the ninth in a game that might have seen him lifted in the third in past years astacio lasted innings the other day under similar circumstances the dodgers are turning double plays and keeping more balls in the infield than last year and piazza has also been great on defense he has thrown out of batters trying to steal and has at least one pick off at first wallach clearly has contributed to the over all improvement on defense but his offense is awful and he has cost the dodgers some runs but i don t think he is as bad as his current average i suspect he will come out of this slump much as davis and straw seem to have come out of theirs dodger
rec.sport.baseball	re let it be known in article issbtl byuvm bitnet issbtl byuvm bitnet writes i would like to make everyone aware that in winning the nl west the atlanta braves did not lead wire to wire through games of the houston astros are percentage points ahead of the unbeatable braves and they deserve to be if for no other reason than salvaging a little of the honor of the nl west the supposed strongest division in baseball lost of to the east yesterday with only the astros prevailing we will stretch no farm animal beyond its natural length paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen hewlett packard home nw mckinley corvallis or a sabr member since
rec.sport.baseball	re expanded nl strike zone was re a surfeit of offense in article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes in article apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes we won t really be able to say anything for at least another couple of weeks but so far it looks like a homerific season might the umps be squeezing the strike zone watching the braves on tbs i would have said that the strike zone in the nl has expanded this season specifically it appears that the strike zone has moved above the belt yeah the announcers have commented on that also but it was also my perception however the strike zone hasn t climbed all the way up to the letters it s more like a little ways under the letters any other perceptions out there judging by the way the reds pitchers have performed thus far it appears to me that the zone has been squeezed to the size of a grape douglas n ritter dougr meaddata com life is short ride hard uunet meaddata dougr
rec.sport.baseball	re i ve found the secret in article apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes why are the red sox in first place eight games into the season they already have two wins each from clemens and viola clemens starts again tonight on three days rest huh clemens pitched last on saturday giving him his usual four days rest what s up are the sox going with a four man rotation is this why hesketh was used in relief last night brian curran mead data central brian meaddata com i didn t think i should ve been asked to catch when the temperature was below my age carlton fisk chicago white sox catcher on playing during a degree april ball game
rec.sport.baseball	re pleasant yankee surprises in article apr sarah albany edu js albnyvms bitnet writes in article netnews upenn edu sepinwal mail sas upenn edu alan sepinwall writes spike owen sure he s hitting like crazy but the guy cannot field to save his life and they said he was brought in to provide defense velarde stankiewicz and even silvestri are better defensively than owen remember it s still early look for his offense to tail off and his defense to improve hopefully he has that rep because i heard that either last year or over the last years or something like that he has the third highest fielding percentage among major league shortstops behind c r and tony i m not gonna help this sorry mets team at all fernandez i do agree though that he has not looked all that impressive in the field thus far owen only has one error so far i believe that seriously underrepresents the harm he has done in the field owen will cleanly play any ball he reaches he will have a fine fielding percentage like always the problem is that he doesn t reach anything that isn t hit straight at him this wouldn t be quite as obvious a problem if he were playing next to kelly gruber or robin ventura but the third baseman for the yankees is wade boggs who should have moved across the diamond last year i ve only seen one game abbott s first start but there were three balls hit to the left side which would have been stopped by quality defensive players instead they were charged as hits against abbott cheers valentine
rec.sport.baseball	re braves pitching updatedir in article apr acad drake edu sbp acad drake edu writes or second starter it seems to me that when quality pitchers take the mound the other teams score less runs the team that scores the most runs wins this puts the team with the better pitching at the advantage providing they can stop the opposing team from scoring runs a low scoring game would clearly benefit the braves not clear to me at all i d certainly rather have a team who was winning games than games in the game luck is going to play a much bigger role than in the game sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	re expanded nl strike zone was re a surfeit of offense jrogoff scott skidmore edu jay rogoff writes it was my impression watching the mets rockies that umpires were calling strikes above the belt too but not as far up as the letters it would be nice if this were the case the umps saw the weekend boxscores too they knew the pitchers needed some help or they would be watching the sunrise mike timlin timlin spot colorado edu
rec.sport.baseball	billy taylor a brave or jay does anyone know where billy taylor is richmond or syracuse he was taken by the jays in the rule v draft but not kept on the roster baseball weekly said that he was demoted to syracuse but a toronto paper indicated that the braves took him back is there an atlanta fan or anyone reading this who knows thanks psl
rec.sport.baseball	defensive averages third base compiled from the last five defensive average reports here are the career das for the individual players in the reports stats are courtesy of sherri nichols players are listed in descending order third basemen name mitchell kevin gonzales rene leius scott pendleton terry ventura robin wallach tim gruber kelly pagliarulo mike harris lance howell jack williams matt caminiti ken sabo chris gaetti gary buechele steve salazar luis pecota bill schmidt mike riles ernie boggs wade martinez egdar molitor paul phillips tony nl average brookens tom king jeff seitzer kevin al average jacoby brook hansen dave law vance magadan dave jefferies greg sharperson mike zeile todd baerga carlos hayes chris livingstone scott hamilton j kelly pat lyons steve oberkfell ken johnson howard bell buddy lansford carney presley jim schu rick worthington cal hollins dave sheffield gary blauser jeff fryman travis gantner jim gomez lee palmer dean dale j stephenson steph cs uiuc edu grad student at large it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information j golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	re the all time greats team in article apr iscsvax uni edu reed iscsvax uni edu writes dave winfield s name does not go in the same sentence as aaron robinson and ott in terms of peak and i repeat peak years winfield has done it all he has batted in the s for a season drove in and more runs many times in a row before his injury consistently hit at or near while knocking in home runs have you even looked at dave winfield s slugging percentage for three or of his best seasons i still think that dave was one of the better of all time but obviously not the best he was one of the best athletes evr to play baseball he hit line drives that hit the scoreboard in left center field a feat np one has done in the new stadium heck only or other people have hit it over that green fence since it has been remodeled he could field had a bullet arm and his hitting was comparable in many seasons to gary sheffields and barry bonds of last season he is older now and slowing down takes more of an uppercut to lift the ball out of the park but he will always be my hero and my idol there is nothing that could make me happier than george inviting dave back to the bronx to play his last year of ball with the yankees of course he will most likely refuse the offer but who knows for million dollars he ll play heck they are giving gallego million this year having dave as their dh while leaving him time to play the field when tartabull is injured or nokes and mass are traded should give the yanks the inspiration and leadership that will sweep in a new age of yankee domination michael lurie
rec.sport.baseball	re pleasant yankee surprises in article netnews upenn edu sepinwal mail sas upenn edu alan sepinwall writes some pleasant and then some not so pleasant surprises about the edition of the bronx bombers so far wickman a friend made a comparison between wickman and jack morris they never have impressive stats but they always find some way to win although morris seems to be losing that ability i figured that wickman would be the least important part of the steve sax trade best trade since we got that ruth guy maybe winding up as a good middle reliever but i like what i ve seen so far he doesn t pitch pretty but he gets the job done actually i kind of liked the abott trade we did trade the rookie of the year snow but with don mattingly at first for another years why bother
rec.sport.baseball	re pleasant yankee surprises in article netnews upenn edu sepinwal mail sas upenn edu alan sepinwall writes farr s era is in the s or s and howe s is infinite i didn t think such a thing was possible but it is actually according to usa today howe has inning atttributed to him but maybe that is incorrect by the excellent report
rec.sport.baseball	yankee fears i ll tell youm all one thing steve howe and farr are much better then the worst pitcher in yankee pitching who do you think i am talking about i ll post the answers if you e mail to me use reply or post you re answers but e mailing them to me meaqns that i will post the final results i have one particular horrid pitcher in mind
rec.sport.baseball	re pleasant yankee surprises in article netnews upenn edu sepinwal mail sas upenn edu alan sepinwall writes thanks alan that was well thought out even written in an entertaining style
rec.sport.baseball	re dave kingman for the hall of fame in article apr news yale edu steve tomassi writes hi baseball fans so what do you say don t you think he deserves it i mean heck if dave winfield ho hum is seriously being considered for it as is lee smith ha then why don t we give dave kingman a chance or darrell evans yeah yeah after the hall of fame takes in them it can take in eddie murray and jeff reardon oh yeah dave winfield marginal player guy didn t hit a lick had negligible power was a crap fielder and had no staying power dave winfield now entering his i believe th big league season is still a damn decent hitter admittedly his defense has slipped a great deal but in his prime he had a powerful arm and great range take a look at the stats i don t know where you even begin to make an argument that winfield and kingman are similar players kingman was a one dimension power hitter he couldn t field he ran like an anvil hit for a low average though if i remember right his obp wasn t that hideous and for those who consider such things important was a absolute primo dick eddie murray yup only the best st baseman of the s i know that mvp votes are conducted by mediots but given that he got jobbed out of the mvp he deserved in it seems that he wasn t overrated by the media lee smith hmmmm this one s actually pretty close he s had a s solid dependable career as a closer despite pitching in some nasty parks wrigley fenway i d have to take a closer look at the stats it s been a while but it seems lee arthur is of hof caliber you do make a legitimate point about the hof credentials of relievers simply racking up a lot of saves doesn t mean a whole hell of a lot if you blow a bunch too simply because minnesota and boston and for a month atlanta used reardon as a closer for longer than he should have been one the equalizer has racked up an impressive number of saves no way should homerman be in the hof imho darrell evans nice career actually a bit underrated kinda like ted simmons imho but not a hof er well in any case i am sick and tired mostly sick of everybody giving hall of fame consideration to players that are by today s standards marginal lemme ask you this who the hell playing the game isn t marginal honestly ozzie smith and robin yount don t belong there they re both shortstops that just hung around for a long time big deal let s be a little more selective huh stop handing out these honors so liberally save them for the guys who really deserve it face it if something now wait a goddamn minute here ozzie smith absolutely redefined the position of shortstop his defense was so good that he s won something along the lines of gold gloves again gold gloves are mediot biased and a good argument could be made that larkin deserved one or two of ozzie s more recent awards but usually this is tempered by someone else in the early s getting the gold gloves ozzie deserved earlier in his career ozzie s offense you ask good obp great speed numbers in a park which for most of his career depressed offense admittedly no power cept against tom niedenfuer but still a definite asset offensively yount hits mvp at two different positions uh huh a real stiff his was one of the great years ever by a player in recent memory and probably ranks behind only the peak seasons of wagner and banks as far as ss numbers go he s a clear hof er imho isn t done there will be little prestige in the hall of fame anymore when certain individuals believe that steve garvey or jack morris are potential candidates the absurdity is apparent gee can these guys even compare to the more likely future hall of famers like kirby puckett or nolan ryan well as far as garvey goes you re right garvey is a mediot candidate pushed because of his winning attitude a minor factor if one at all and his great defense no errors admittedly but the range of a tree stump garvey shouldn t be in the hof skyjack i ve said a lot of nasty things about skyjack in the last year or so but this is mostly in response to mediots and woofers who talk about morris ability to win which is nothing more than morris ability to pitch when toronto to score tons of runs at this point morris is an average pitcher although from his early returns in he may be damned close to done but in all fairness morris was a dominant pitcher in the s for up and down tiger teams while was obviously a great year for detroit the rest of the decade the team was generally in contention but not favorites morris career numbers are quite good and worthy of hof consideration ryan of course but be careful i guarantee you that someone will throw back your earlier logic about yount and smith being shortstops who hung around a long time after all nolan never won a cy damn he s just pitcher who hung around for years his w l record is mediocre of course nolan s a hof er puck probably although he s got to play reasonably well for a few more years years even good ones aren t enough to make the hof most likely that said i believe puckett will make the hof pretty much regardless of how the rest of his career turns out barring something really tragic or sudden he s very popular in the media and with fans and legitimately has been one of the best cf s in the game since he joined the league i ve always liked the guy and i hope he does make it and in the end i think the puck will make it in but really it s too early to sell this debate comes up rather frequently on the net and believe it or not i never tire of it it s an interesting subject here s an off the top of my head list of potential hof ers from each team i probably left a couple of guys off so feel free to follow up i won t consider anyone who started playing after about again too early to tell note these are all active players i m not counting recent retirees baltimore cal ripken should be a lock by now even if gehrig s record stands boston roger clemens might be a lock already which is amazing dawson detroit alan trammell and lou whitaker possibilities milwaukee robin yount discussed earlier new york wade boggs possibly mattingly long shot toronto paul molitor and jack morris possibilities kansas city george brett lock minnesota kirby too early to tell winfield lock oakland eckersley lock mcgwire too early rickey lock welch long shot texas the mighty nolan too early to consider canseco or strange cubs sandberg lock st louis ozzie lock lee smith probably new york murray almost a lock saberhagen obviously he s got to regain past form and most certainly not vince coleman despite what he ll tell you los angeles butler strawberry and hershiser are all long shots san diego tony gwynn pretty good shot colorado dale murphy a good shot ryan bowen just to see if you re awake before i get flames this is an off the top of the head list there s probably a few deserving candidates that i left off and i didn t include barry bonds will clark any atlanta starting pitcher frank thomas canseco mcgriff etc because i only considered guys who started playing before e mail or post i almost fear what i may have started here bruce hasch hasch jhuvms hcf jhu edu sell the team eli if a hitter is a good fastball hitter does that mean i should throw him a bad fastball larry andersen
rec.sport.baseball	re best homeruns darryl strawberry s moon shots were fun he can hit those high and far home runs that if he actually ran them out he d be rounding second base by the time they landed we used to say that he should have to file a flight plan at laguardia for some of them then bull durham came out and that was changed on homers he pulled that didn t go high they were microwave home runs microwave as in they got outta there in a hurry in a game in he came off the bench with the flu and on the second pitch send a rocket down the right field line that didn t even allow bob murphy the luxury of a home run call the story went he stayed in the clubhouse the with the mets down by two and two on davey johnson sent for him to pinch hit he came out of the clubhouse saying one swing and we go home he hit the homer ran the bases then went straight for the clubhouse to shower and go home those were the days scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let s go mets
rec.sport.baseball	re baseballisdead in article apr midway uchicago edu as midway uchicago edu writes my question to you all is why does the media seem to embrace the theme of the death of baseball so strongly i have seen articles of a similar vein in the chicago tribune and in sports editorials on tv maybe because baseball is the only business where those who are responsible for the fiscal aspects of the game preach gloom and doom these allegedly intelligent people seem to predict bad times losing money bankruptcies at an alarming rate and there s going to be an increased degradation of the product they produce could you imagine ibm with all their problems promoting themselves the way major league baseball does their stock would plummet to unthinkable depths not that they are too far from it now what would happen at gm where would gm be if they admitted to cutting corners and producing an inferior product because of alleged labor problems i think it shows a lack of confidence for the people who run the game anyway it just frustrates me when the media says such things because it inevitably leads to owners trying quick fixes like increasing play offs to satisfy television or trying interleague play to drum up interest forget it word has it three divisions with a wild card is just about a done deal it has to be decided soon since negotiations with the networks also have to begin soon scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let s go mets
rec.sport.baseball	re all time best players in article apr bsu ucs mbstultz leo bsuvc bsu edu writes i ve recently been working on project to determine the greatest players at their respective postions my sources are total baseball james historical abstract the ballplayers biography word of mouth and my own biased opinions feel free to comment suggest flame whatever but i tried to be as objective as possible using statistical data not inlcuded for time convience s sake i judged on rel ba adj ops total average fielding range runs total player rating total baseball stolen bases for curiosity s sake tpr g and years played mvp b career lou gehrig jimmie foxx eddie murray hank greenberg johnny mize willie mccovey dick allen harmon killebrew kieth hernandez it s i before e except after c and in people named keith bill terry george sisler b eddie collins joe morgan jackie robinson rogers hornsby nap lajoie rhyne sandberg learn to spell it s ryne charlie gehringer rod carew bobby grich bobby doerr ss honus wagner cal ripken jr john lloyd ozzie smith robin yount joe cronin arky vaughan luke appling ernie banks lou boudreau b mike schmidt ed matthews george brett wade boggs ron santo brooks robinson frank baker darrell evans pie traynor ray dandridge how can brooks be i think he would at least be ahead of ron santo c josh gibson a darren daulton mvp yogi berra johnny bench mickey cochrane bill dickey gabby hartnett roy campanella gary carter carlton fisk thurman munson lf ted williams stan musial rickey henderson carl yastrzemski barry bonds tim raines joe jackson ralph kiner willie stargell al simmons cf willie mays ty cobb tris speaker mickey mantle joe dimaggio oscar charleston andre dawson duke snider kirby puckett dale murphy rf babe ruth hank aaron frank robinson mel ott al kaline reggie jackson dave winfield roberto clemente tony gwynn pete rose p walter johnson lefty grove cy young christy mathewson pete alexander tom seaver roger clemens bob gibson warren spahn satchel paige juan marichal whitey ford bob feller jim palmer steve carlton overall estimated ruth williams mays cobb aaron wagner speaker schmidt w johnson mantle musial dimaggio f robinson grove henderson j gibson c young collins foxx mathewson alexander morgan j robinson hornsby ott seaver clemens matthews lajoie yastrzemski kaline brett gibson spahn charleston berra ripken jr lloyd raines sandberg gehringer o smith yount ba bonds paige r jackson marichal ford feller boggs again feel free to comment mike bsu
rec.sport.baseball	re evil smile on my face as cubs beat braves boy hats off to any cubs fan who can actually muster up the courage to put down braves fans i mean all the braves have done is gone to two consecutive world series also being the cubs fan that i am i really have to hand it to all the braves fans out there that are capable of driving me crazy with that infernal cheer that they have however i do have to protest anyone saying that all cubs fans are stupid the way i see it either i m just too stupid to acknowledge it or that observation was just plain wrong you might have us confused with bear fans anyway about a two weeks ago just about everyone was saying that the cubs would finish up last in their division even behind florida sheesh these same people were predicting the braves to clean up in their respective division well we re ten games into the season and these people are a little less vocal now i wonder why well the way i see it the east is up for grabs and whoever wants it most is going to take it with the exception of florida every team seems to have good batting and pitching with philly presently leading the pack but i just have to point out if the cubs do take the east they ll do it without the benefit of a competent manager however and it pains me to say it the pennant is going to go to the west just had to get that off my chest doc bem benefit of a compee
rec.sport.baseball	jose canseco s swing vs was going over some videos last night studying and videotapes of jose canseco proved to be very interesting and enlightening here s my analysis of jose canseco circa sep and jose canseco circa june he s bulked up too much period he needs to lose about pounds not gain more bulk his bat speed has absolutely vanished conservatively i d say he s lost of his bat speed and that s a huge amount of speed that open stance is killing him note that he acts sort of like brian downing way open to start then closes up as ball is released downing could do this without significant head movement canseco can t also note that canseco doesn t always close his stance the same way sometimes his hips are open sometimes they re fully closed without a good starting point it s hard to make adjustments in your swing what would i do if i were jose aside from salting away a large sum of a cash that i could never touch so that i d never have to work again i d restructure my entire swing first minimize movement before the swing close and widen the stance and severely cut down the stride i take on my swing hopefully this will cut down on the time i need to swing and will allow me to move the bathead more freely second drop pounds cut out the weight work third relax the wrists will cost some power but until i can find my stroke concentrate on keeping the back shoulder up rolling the wrists through the strike zone and hit line drives his strength is more than enough so that some of those line drives will get out of the park if canseco s open stance and resulting bad habits are a result of his back problems he ll be out of baseball in three years if not he could still hit hr gary huckabay you think that s loud enough a hole movie rights well if you re having trouble hearing it sir available thru i d be happy to turn it up for you i didn t ted frank know that many people your age liked king s x
rec.sport.baseball	brewer bullpen rocked again for the second straight game california scored a ton of late runs to crush the brewhas it was six runs in the th for a win monday and five in the th and six in the th for a win yesterday jamie navarro pitched seven strong innings but orosco austin manzanillo and lloyd all took part in the mockery of a bullpen yesterday how s this for numbers maldanado has pitched three scoreless innings and navarro s era is the next lowest on the staff is wegman at ouch it doesn t look much better for the hitters hamilton is batting while thon is hitting and has seven rbi the next highest is three the next best hitter is jaha at and then vaughn who has the team s only hr at another ouch looking at the stats it s not hard to see why the team is in fact doesn t sound bad when you re averaging three runs game and giving up game still it s early and things will undoubtedly get better the offense should come around but the bullpen is a major worry fetters plesac and austin gave the brewers great middle relief last year lloyd maldanado manzanillo fetters austin and orosco will have to pick up the pace for the team to be successful milwaukee won a number of games last year when middle relief either held small leads or kept small deficits in place the starters will be okay the defense will be alright and the hitting will come around but the bullpen is a big question mark in other news nilsson and doran were reactivated yesterday while william suero was sent down and tim mcintosh was picked up by montreal today s game with california was cancelled salty
rec.sport.baseball	ryan on dl heard minutes ago on koa radio denver nolan ryan to have arthroscopic on a knee and to miss weeks rockies nied lead mets gooden in th all runs in first inning gregg baseball ncar ucar edu cr o cr colorado rockies
rec.sport.baseball	when does fred mcgriff of the padres become a free agent 
rec.sport.baseball	re braves pitching updatedir dave naehring x p ep dn pts mot com wrote in article adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes every single piece of evidence we can find points to major league baseball being offense defense a run scored is just as important as a run prevented this certainly passes the common sense test for me but is there any statistical evidence to say what percent of defense is pitching and what percent is fielding i d really like to know btw sherri thanks for the da data i find it fascinating one of the chapters in palmer and thorn s hidden game is titled pitching is of baseball implying that fielding is how do they determine that beats me it s been a long long time since i read it one also has to separate offense into batting and baserunning with the split probably somewhere around and neal traven pitt edu you re only young once but you can be traven vms cis pitt edu immature forever larry andersen
rec.sport.baseball	re tigers thud see sig kurt bose as in daisy not rose kbos carina unm edu help cleanse r s b of all mindless woofing whenever someone at your site posts an article with a subject of the form my team r lz simply look him up in the directory hunt him down and beat him senseless easy fun rewarding
rec.sport.baseball	sparky anderson gets win tigers beat a s tigers manager sparky anderson gets his th career win as moments ago the tigers completed a two game sweep over the oakland a s at tiger stadium by beating the a s here are the highlights r h e oakland detroit chad krueter scored skeeter barnes from st with an rbi double in the bottom of the ninth against none other than dennis eckersley to give the tigers the victory barnes also had an rbi single to score thurmond to tie the score in the ninth also off eckersley sp the a s got their runs on an rbi single by mcgwire in the st and a solo homer by reuben sierra in the th deer doubled home kirk gibson in the th for the other tiger run john doherty pitched another strong game for the tigers once again lasting through the seventh inning he was relieved by bolton and then david haas in the th and haas got the win bobby witt started for the a s and was replaced by honeycutt in the th followed by goose gossage in the th and finally eckersly in the th doherty gave up both of the a s runs while witt gave up the first tiger run and eckerseley gave up the last two in the post game interview on wjr radio in detroit sparky anderson said its one of the few times he s gotten emotional in his managing career it was a big moment for him and i m sure all of us tiger fans are unanimously very happy for him and what a way to get number considering the circumstances i think it might be appropriate to say woof go tigers randy
rec.sport.baseball	re jose canseco s swing vs in article c jkik zf ucdavis edu ez dale ucdavis edu gary built like villanueva huckabay writes here s my analysis of jose canseco circa sep and jose canseco circa june he s bulked up too much period he needs to lose about pounds not gain more bulk i ve been saying that for at least years now and even the a s conditioning guru told jose he was carrying too much weight and losing some would help his back although i don t for one second believe jose used steroids his back problems are very similar to problems alot of steroid users experience because they are simply carrying too much weight on their frame see jeff bregel ex er as a textbook example and imho jose is too big for his frame his bat speed has absolutely vanished conservatively i d say he s lost of his bat speed and that s a huge amount of speed i can t imagine how to estimate bat speed but its pretty obvious that jose is missing fastballs he used to hit likely due to his back that open stance is killing him note that he acts sort of like brian downing way open to start then closes up as ball is released downing could do this without significant head movement canseco can t also note that canseco doesn t always close his stance the same way sometimes his hips are open sometimes they re fully closed without a good starting point it s hard to make adjustments in your swing i don t know he had an even more open stance when he first came up with the a s and had no problems with it then it might be that pre back problems he was quick enough to cover up any deficiencies the stance caused but now he s lost just enough bat speed that the stance hurts him the old saying if you re hot its a trigger mechanism if you re cold its a hitch first minimize movement before the swing close and widen the stance and severely cut down the stride i take on my swing hopefully this will cut down on the time i need to swing and will allow me to move the bathead more freely the biggest problem imho is he never has found a stance he s comfortable with for more than a few months he changes his stance so much he loses track of where the strike zone is in wednesday s night game he was clearly mad at strike calls on both corners that looked pretty good to me i think he no longer knows where the strike zone really is because he s changed his stance so much i m also a bit concerned that because he s got palmer and gonzalez hitting all the homeruns he ll become competitive swing even harder and screw himself up even worse larussa always said that canseco s famous batting practice homer shows did him more harm than good as they encouraged bad hitting habits russ smith i don t know anything about x s but i know about some o george gervin on being an assistant coach
rec.sport.baseball	re the phillies deja vu robert c hite philly bach udel edu wrote i think most of the problems mainly arose from manager gene mauch s ineptitude in managing the pitching staff down the stretch he abused jim bunning chris short and robin roberts i think those are the three pitching each on only days rest for quite some time by the time they hit the last weeks of the season obviously none of these guys had an ounce left in their arm oh well roberts was long gone he was probably an oriole in or maybe a colt the rd starter was art mahaffey the previous year s ace dennis bennett was the th starter they were indeed up with to go but they won their final two games after the horrid loss streak the final game victory bunning s th win if memory serves kept the reds from tying for the title they and the phils were both game behind the cards with the giants another game back the mets couldn t hold an early lead against the cards that final sunday or there would have been a way tie too bad they couldn t have saved some of the or so runs they scored on saturday when they crushed st louis neal traven pitt edu you re only young once but you can be traven vms cis pitt edu immature forever larry andersen
rec.sport.baseball	re tigers i basically agree the tigers are my favorite team actually their pitching might actually be better this year than last not that htat s saying a hole lot how bout that home opener on tuesday by the way sparky goes for win today
rec.sport.baseball	hal mcrae dak s vma smsu edu writes no hal mcrae is the worst manager in baseball i haven t seen enough royals games to judge his tactics so you may have a point here but i ve never seen a guy who can waste talent like he can one of the best raw talent staffs in the league and he s still finding a way to lose imo the royals don t have a chance to win the pennant even if mcrae suddenly began channeling for john mcgraw ok they have some decent pitchers but when your offense consists of bums like gagne and lind and mcreynolds and mcrae and an over the hill brett you re not going to finish unless mcgraw brings christy mathewson back with him i d say it is hard to evaluate a manager when all of his hitters suck bob davis rbd thor ece uc edu
rec.sport.baseball	jewish baseball players just wondering a friend and i were talking the other day and we were for some reason trying to come up with names of jewish baseball players past and present we weren t able to come up with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and maybe john lowenstein can anyone come up with any more i know it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this but humor us thanks for your help thanks bobby
rec.sport.baseball	re wfan in article c jc z knd news udel edu philly ravel udel edu robert c hite writes in article apr virginia edu jja h virginia edu writes does any one out there listen to wfan for those of you who do not know what i am talking about it is an all sports radio staion in new york on a clear night the signal reaches up and down the east coast in particular i want to know how len berman and mike lupica s show is i go to school in virginia so i can t listen when there are on during the day just wondering you re right about the signal being strong i live in west philadelphia and i can get fan almost perfectly it s a sports fans dream especially if that person is from ny and wants to hear about his teams while he s away at school as for lupica berman it s turned out to be lupica then berman neither of them wanted to work a full four hour show so ed coleman and dave sims old four hour slot was broken down into two seperate two hour show lupica from and berman from and they both happen to suck in comparison to eddie and dave come back guys the fan is an okay sports radio station but doesn t come close to the ultimate in sports radio wip in philadelphia the signal might not be as powerful but then again only stations in new york feel obligated to pollute everyone else s airwaves with a bunch of hoodlum mets fans complaining hours a day wip took two of your best sports jockeys too jody macdonald and steve fredericks wip is rockin with sports talk from am till midnight check it out anytime your within a few hours of philadelphia if i m not mistaken wip has the highest sports talk ratings in the nation like i said i live in philly so i can hear fan and or wip whenever i want but i cannot stand wip and it isn t because i loathe the philly sports teams the phillies are my favorite nl team yanks are favorite al and the eagles aren t too bad either there are two big problems total emphasis on the home teams especially the eagles unlike the fan hosts who can at least answer a question about an out of town team if a caller asks the wip hosts seem to have no clue about any team that doesn t play on broad street also fans periodic sports updates every minutes gives sports news and scores from around the country it s very rare to hear an out of town score being reported on wip the hosts with the exception of jody macdonald who i miss from his days at fan none of the hosts really seems to have both a broad knowledge of the sport or a good on air presence the worst is gary cobb who seems to have been hired solely on the basis that he used to play for the eagles anyway that s my two cents on the whole fan vs wip battle alan
rec.sport.baseball	re notes on jays vs indians series in c hpcv hl andy bgsu edu klopfens andy bgsu edu bruce klopfenstein writes cmk athena mit edu charles m kozierok writes in article apr csd newshost stanford edu nlu xenon stanford edu nelson lu writes guess which line is which ba obp slg ab h b b hr bb x y i just love how the alomar fans left rbis off this list give me a break alomar fans left rbi fans and runs off this list because they are dependant on the team to a large extent if frank thomas hit first he d lose a lot of rbi s and anyways how many nd place hitters have you known to drive in runs doesn t happen that often very unlikely with devon white s obp in front of you gord niguma fav player john olerud
rec.sport.baseball	re notes on jays vs indians series in c hxlk fix andy bgsu edu klopfens andy bgsu edu bruce klopfenstein writes dtate pitt edu david m tate writes klopfens andy bgsu edu bruce klopfenstein said i just love how the alomar fans left rbis off this list of course they left rbis off we re comparing alomar the individual with baerga the individual so only individual stats count give me a break i forgot most runs are scored by players stealing home so rbi don t count for anything my mistake oh oh we all know what s going to happen now don t we gord niguma fav player john olerud
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players in article apr lafibm lafayette edu vb lafibm lafayette edu vb writes just wondering a friend and i were talking the other day and we were for some reason trying to come up with names of jewish baseball players past and present we weren t able to come up with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and maybe john lowenstein can anyone come up with any more i know it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this but humor us thanks for your help thanks bobby hank greenberg would have to be the most famous because his jewish faith actually affected his play missing late season or was it world series games because of yom kippur pablo iglesias pi ruth ece jhu edu
rec.sport.baseball	ryan rumor this just in nolan ryan hurt his right knee in the th inning of the rangers orioles game last night he ll be having arthoscopic surgery that will at best keep him on the dl for two to five weeks just when i had almost convinced myself that the rangers rotation would stay healthy this year phil allen texdude cs bradley edu
rec.sport.baseball	need software for baseball stats i m looking for software hopefully free and runs on unix box which will keep track of statistics for my company softball team batting avg etc if you know of any please post or respond to me by e mail many thanks dan bergmann dbergmann llnl gov
rec.sport.baseball	re notes on jays vs indians series in c hpg lm andy bgsu edu klopfens andy bgsu edu bruce klopfenstein writes kime mongoose torolab ibm com edward kim writes i would tend to call the offensive contributions even but alomar wins hands down in defensive capabilities i m not just talking about the number of errors nobody including lind has the range and athleticism at second base i can t recall in the recent past anyone turning the double play better than alomar well why don t you look up those stats baerga may not be the best defensive second baseman in the league but he s damn good check the stats for dps last year and see for yourself according to the defensive average stats posted by sherri baerga had the highest percentage of dps turned in the league while alomar had the worst however alomar had a higher defensive average so who would be better using alomar s opportunities groundballs possible double plays alomar had groundouts and turned dps baerga would have had with same da dp groundouts and dps using baerga s opportunites groundballs possible double plays alomar would have had with the same da dp groundouts and dps baerga had groundouts and dps baerga looks better though it s possible his dp would be lower with a different ss will baerga consistently turn twice as many double plays however alomar has established a high level of defense baerga has not i would bet on alomar to be better next year but last year baerga was just as good overall dale j stephenson steph cs uiuc edu grad student at large it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information j golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	re nl stats doug those stats are great they help immensely i tried to e mail you with some comments on them but my mail server does not recognize your address could you e mail me with some info on how to get e mail to you thanks jim bragg jbragg morgan ucs mun ca
rec.sport.baseball	re i hate to mention acker but in article apr jhuvms hcf jhu edu hasch jhuvms hcf jhu edu bruce m hasch writes in article apr hpcvaac cv hp com paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen writes i feel as if i might be causing some bad karma by doing this but i just have to know is the ack man still in organized baseball glad you asked the ack man and nine of his relatives are currently impersonating the baltimore orioles pitching staff personally i believe that the evil ackers kidnapped the real o s staff and are currently in the process of impersonating mussina sutcliffe mcdonald olson no no no the ack man is apparently an alien life form much like the pod people from planet mars who can take on any form the ability remains the same however the ack people have been spotted on many teams to date but it appears that the orioles staff mentioned above and the expos bullpen barnes walton fassero gardiner and rojas have been the prime target apparently john wetteland was roughed up by the ack people during spring training due to the fact that his system rejected the takeover and has been on the dl ever since contact the authorities this evil plot must be stopped the ack people can keep jack morris and juan guzman though i enjoy watching toronto fans suffer too much to want these guys returned to normal scot scot hughes department of chemical engineering expos in falcon cs mcgill ca mcgill university montreal quebec witty saying here
rec.sport.baseball	mcrae is re torre the worst manager in article bb c dak s vma smsu edu ext dak s vma smsu edu writes gt a prism gatech edu brian r landmann writes joe torre has to be the worst manager in baseball brian a very distressed cardinal fan no hal mcrae is the worst manager in baseball i ve never seen a guy who can waste talent like he can one of the best raw talent staffs in the league and he s still finding a way to lose i ll be surprised if he makes it through the next weeks unless drastic improvement is made kc news was doing a report on that they said that mcrae is really a batting coach and not a manager but for some reason he took the job whatever the reason the royals need a new manager now while it is too late scott d davis scott mccall com the mccall pattern company uucp widener depot mccall scott mccall road in kansas manhattan ks usa
rec.sport.baseball	re notes on jays vs indians series in article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david m tate writes substituting irony for brains bruce klopfenstein said dtate pitt edu david m tate writes of course they left rbis off we re comparing alomar the individual with baerga the individual so only individual stats count i forgot most runs are scored by players stealing home so rbi don t count for anything uh right you also forgot that you can t get an rbi barring a hr with nobody on base what fraction of all runs come on solo hr most runs are scored because there happened to be players on base when the batter did something good i use the phrase happened to be advisedly lots of people have tried to figure out who the players are who have the most ability to turn it up a notch in clutch rbi whatever situations and what they ve found is that there is no evidence that anyone has such an ability to any measurable extent there are no clutch hitters people who tend to do things that would cause an rbi if there were somebody on base end up getting rbis proportional to how many of their teammates obliged by being in position my mistake i agree me too rbi are a worthless stat of course so is stolen bases because sometimes runners are in front of a player that would otherwise run and of course pitchers pitch differently with different people on different bases so batting average slugging and obp out too hmmm i guess homers would not count then either my point rbi might not be a perfect stat but nothing is and no stat or lack of can tell me there are no clutch hitters maybe no stat can tell me either but some people are i just know it ed o
rec.sport.baseball	phillies a new ballpark in future attn those who live inthe philadelphia metro area back in september i was listening to wip and i remember the morning guys were talking with mayor ed rendell the topic of conversation was a new ball park for the phillies the location for this new park was suggested to be near th st station at the time the mayor was optimisitic that in the future this could become a reality has there been any new news on this subject or is it still a pipe dream i know the city of philadelphia has other projects ahead such as the new convention center and the upcoming spectrum ii but it would be nice to see this a reality it is planned that the phillies leave the vet and leave it solely to the eagles and if that s the case the eagles should make the vet a grass stadium but that s another story i want to see that day comments
rec.sport.baseball	re dave kingman for the hall of fame in article apr news yale edu steve tomassi writes hi baseball fans so what do you say don t you think he deserves it i mean heck if dave winfield ho hum is seriously being considered for it as is lee smith ha then why don t we give dave kingman a chance or darrell evans yeah yeah after the hall of fame takes in them it can take in eddie murray and jeff reardon i am trying to think how to respond to this without involving personal feeling or perceptions and i can not without having stats to back up my points however i think you approached this the wrong way i believe all of the people mentioned here deserve the hall of fame more than dave kingman does i feel they were all much better players i am not saying i fell they deserve to go but that they would deserve it more imho dave kingman definately not they guy only had a couple of years were he could hit with atleast a respectable averag the rest of his career i do not think he was very feared by pitchers i also do not think he did a lot for the game i mean really i am a met fan he was a met for part of his career and i still would not back him for the hall of fame dave winfield i think so he is feared by pitchers he has had several season where he hit for a respectable average and his production numbers are in my opinion without stats better than kingman s probably by quite a bit i also perceive him to be a leader maybe not as much as some other people but none the less a leader i think he has made substantial contributions to the game of baseball and to society examples of this are some of the charitable things he has done i know some of this from when he was with the yankees i think he the type of player that kids can look up to and while this is definately not the only criteria for the hall of fame i think it deserves some consideration lee smith maybe i would have to see his stats again but he definately would deserve to go before the likes of kingman darrell evans no eddie murray maybe he has had a very good career he is a leader although a silent one he is a good role model are the stats good enough i am not sure but i would once again believe they are much better than kingman s both the average as well as the power numbers but not as good as winfield s just think eddie did not have as much publicity for most of his great years jeff reardon my guess is no but it kind of depends on his numbers off the top of my head i would take lee smith first well in any case i am sick and tired mostly sick of everybody giving hall of fame consideration to players that are by today s standards marginal honestly ozzie smith and robin yount don t belong there they re both shortstops that just hung around for a long time big deal well i strongly disagree here both of these guys deserve it for sure i talked about leadership above both of these guys are leaders and have been instumental in leading their teams to the post season robin does have very good offensive numbers both average and power and ozzie has okay numbers offensively the difference with ozzie is that if you gave him a home run for every run he saved by making an incredible play at shortstop he would have shattered aaron s home run mark by now how many of those great plays saved games how many of those great plays motivated his team to rally and win a game while i believe both of these guys have numbers baseball is about more than numbers or at least winning at baseball is about more than numbers both of these guys are proven stars and belong in the hall of fame as does george brett who also belongs in this class of player let s be a little more selective huh stop handing out these honors so liberally save them for the guys who really deserve it face it if something isn t done there will be little prestige in the hall of fame anymore when certain individuals believe that steve garvey or jack morris are potential candidates the absurdity is apparent gee can these guys even compare to the more likely future hall of famers like kirby puckett or nolan ryan steve garvey i am not sure probably not but i guess i could see someone making a case for him jack morris once again not my first choice but i can see why someone might bring up his name kirby puckett probably the only reason i do not say definately is he still has time left in his career if he continues doing what he has been then my probably will turn into a definately nolan ryan is there really any doubt i think i heard something about him having some records maybe they were not all good i don t know i did not hear any of them just the number he has the numbers he has the contributions to the game and community and he is a great role model i would not say that he is the best pitcher to ever pitch the game probably not even top but he would be the first pitcher i would put in the hall of fame because of his accomplishments no hitters strikeouts respectable numbers even with some weaker teams you can go on and on i really hope he gets all the possible votes so in summing up i have groups those that belong those that probably do but i am not sure and those that i lean towards saying don t belong at least not without my seeing stats and possibly hearing reasons why they should go yes winfield yount brett not in your mail o smith puckett and ryan maybe murray and l smith no reardon garvey morris evans and definately kingman as i said i do not have the stats around so i do not have numbers to back this up these are entirely my opinions based on my perceptions mike q steve
rec.sport.baseball	re notes on jays vs indians series in article apr csd newshost stanford edu nlu xenon stanford edu nelson lu writes second basemen in history he probably didn t even have as good a season as alomar last year guess which line is which ba obp slg ab h b b hr bb x y the walks should give it away obp s in general somewhat more valuable than slugging and alomar s edge in obp was quite a bit larger than baerga s edge in slugging i m no sdcn but what s more valuable hits w more doubles more hrs or more triples and bbs let s not forget the extra sbs how many cs of course the hits and homers are more valuable but don t forget the outs you can t have it both ways baerga s higher raw numbers are due to him having more playing time and thus he had more hits and homers but don t forget the cost of those outs btw just to answer your question alomar had sb and cs baerga had sb and cs which gives a minute plus on alomar s side something else to consider alomar s h r splits were slg obp baerga s was and pretty clearly alomar got a huge boost from his home park i d say you could make a good for them being about equal right now t p rated baerga higher actually mike disclaimer these opiini h h damn h h q w q wq wq d x exit x q c quitbye ctrlaltdel q q logout save quit quit zz zzzzzz vi man vi l c e x i t help helpquit d d man help c c e help exit quit q ctrlshftdel hey what does stop l a d
rec.sport.baseball	al opi through first week here is the opi offensive production index for all al players with at least at bats it is early in the season so there are some very high numbers last years leader was frank thomas at teams are denoted by an as the first character of the name and each player has his team preceeding his name the equations used are found at the end of the post comments and suggestions are welcome kevin league opi league ba league slg league oba rank player opi ba slg oba tor carter cle baerga det phillips oak mcgwire tor white bal anderson nyy owen oak rhenderson mil thon oak browne tex palmer det gibson cle howard nyy tartabull tex rodriguez tex gonzalez bos zupcic sea felder oak blankenship min puckett nyy oneill cle belle sea buhner mil hamilton det whitaker det fielder tor sprague whi cora whi raines nyy kelly bos quintana sea tmartinez cal gonzales whi burks cal snow whi karkovice cleveland cle sorrento sea amaral bos cooper min winfield cal curtis bos mvaughn oak steinbach oakland nyy maas kan joyner min knoblauch bos greenwell oak brosius tor olerud bal mercedes nyyankees bal hoiles mil kmak oak dhenderson cle lofton min larkin bos dawson cle camartinez det gladden cal polonia california detroit det tettleton cal disarcina cal easley bal baines tex franco whi ljohnson sea vizquel nyy bwilliams mil gvaughn min hrbek bal cripken seattle cal salmon kan mcreynolds toronto texas min pagliarulo whitesox kan hiatt whi guillen whi thomas kan mcrae boston cle hill nyy mattingly baltimore bal gomez minnesota whi fisk cle jefferson oak neel cal cdavis bos fletcher milwaukee det livingstone tor ralomar kansascity oak bordick tex canseco sea valle bal devereaux kan lind mil surhoff kan brett whi bell cle salomar mil jaha det fryman nyy boggs tex bripken min mack min harper cle fermin bos rivera mil spiers mil yount tor schofield tex hulse sea griffey sea obrien kan macfarlane oak sierra kan jose bos hatcher sea blowers whi ventura tex palmeiro bal reynolds kan mayne cal myers nyy nokes bos calderon bos pena tor molitor det deer det cuyler tor borders whi grebeck bal gdavis tex dascenzo min leius mil reimer tor djackson tex gill kan gagne b b b hr bb sb cs opi ab h ba h ab slg h b b hr ab oba h bb ab bb jet propulsion laboratory schmke cco caltech edu oak grove dr schmidt spc jpl nasa gov m s pasadena ca
rec.sport.baseball	nl opi through first week here is the opi offensive production index for all nl players with at least at bats it is early in the season so there are some high numbers barry bonds finished last season at i welcome comments and suggestions kevin league opi league ba league slg league oba rank player opi ba slg oba phi daulton phi kruk cub grace cub may col boston pit bell col galarraga stl pena stl zeile cin mitchell mon lansing pit slaught mon vanderwal nym tfernandez snf martinez hou bagwell col hayes col eyoung mon alou cin milligan phi dykstra snf bonds flo conine snd plantier hou gonzalez hou anthony col cole atl sanders mon berry cub sosa stl jefferies pit vanslyke montreal los butler mon grissom pit king snd gwynn pit merced nym murray stl gilkey nym bonilla snd walters cub wilson flo weiss philadelphia atl justice pittsburgh stl osmith phi incaviglia pit young stlouis colorado nym hundley nym orsulak snf benjamin atl gant nymets houston mon pitcher phi morandini hou cedeno cin sabo snf manwaring snfrancisco atl blauser snf thompson hou caminiti flo barberie mon cordero snd sheffield los karros snf williams snd mcgriff flo destrade col girardi atl bream mon wood flo santiago phi thompson snf clayton los piazza snd bell los wallach cin larkin pit garcia cincinnati nym coleman nym kent stl whiten cin roberts cubs snf lewis hou finley col clark los pitcher sndiego atl lemke losangeles snf mcgee atlanta cin sanders cin oliver snd gardner los reed phi hollins florida los davis atl pendleton snf clark los strawberry hou biggio phi bell flo magadan stl pagnozzi pit martin col bichette hou taubensee mon bolick flo pose mon cianfrocco nym johnson cin kelly atl nixon nym pitcher pit pitcher cub buechle stl lankford atl olson cub vizcaino cub sanchez phi duncan los offerman snf pitcher mon laker phi chamberlain snd pitcher atl pitcher phi pitcher cub maldonado flo felix cin espy stl jordan atl berryhill cub pitcher snd shipley stl pitcher hou pitcher col benavides cin pitcher cub wilkins flo pitcher col pitcher b b b hr bb sb cs opi ab h ba h ab slg h b b hr ab oba h bb ab bb jet propulsion laboratory schmke cco caltech edu oak grove dr schmidt spc jpl nasa gov m s pasadena ca
rec.sport.baseball	re oakland oaks memorabilia there is ebbets field flannels in seattle which makes lots of minor and negro league jackets and jerseys these things are real spendy around for a jersey but they are very authentic in look and nicely made paul long live steve bilko and the pcl la angels their phone number is the last catalog shows three oaks jerseys home home home they re each all their merchandise is handmade and is an authentic replica i own a couple and they are excellent they also have wool caps and jackets you should call to get on their mailing list even if you can t afford their prices anton
rec.sport.baseball	ryam out for weeks nolan ryan has torn cartlidge inhis right knee is having surgery and is expected to miss weeks
rec.sport.baseball	re defensive averages third base in c jjrj em cs uiuc edu steph cs uiuc edu dale stephenson writes compiled from the last five defensive average reports here are the career das for the individual players in the reports stats are courtesy of sherri nichols players are listed in descending order and some comments with some players deleted third basemen name mitchell kevin yep that kevin mitchell i never would have expected him in the spot gonzales rene it s no accident that the first two names are only as with first and second base was the year of the glove average da was points higher in both leagues than any other year leius scott looks good too bad he s moving to short pendleton terry highest five year regular though he s only had one year as good as kevin mitchell ventura robin wallach tim gruber kelly the other elite fielders in the league pagliarulo mike this is an interesting line his figure was slightly below average his was pathetic and his was the next best year by anybody part of that may be his mobility was with the yankees was with the padres who appear to have a rotten infield was with the twins and judging by leius and gaetti the metrodome may be a good place to play third williams matt add another to the elite fielders list caminiti ken sabo chris too fielders whose career average may overstate their value i don t know what happened to caminiti judging by the three previous years his low may be a fluke sabo is merely average however his incredible best year ever brings his average up a lot buechele steve strange last two years schmidt mike according to reputation one of the best fielders ever at third base but at the end he was below average average in was boggs wade boggs has been pretty good i don t know what happened in but every other year he has been above average usually by quite a bit martinez egdar last year a fluke or a portent nl average seitzer kevin al average why is it that the two leagues usually have defensive averages very close to one another but very different from year to year any ideas jacoby brook brook is declining hansen dave magadan dave jefferies greg three first time regulars above average in i m not sure why jefferies gets all the grief about his fielding he s never had a good year but while at second he improved to become an average fielder and is an average fielder at third zeile todd zeile on the other hand is a below average fielder each year he s about points below average and it s probably not just the park since terry pendleton had excellent das in the three years before this baerga carlos moving back to second was a good idea hayes chris so why is hayes supposed to be good defensively he s had a grand total of one year above the league da and was pretty bad last year johnson howard lansford carney howard johnson and carney lansford separated at birth to his credit hojo did have one above average year lansford couldn t even break the mark without the help of the year of the glove hollins dave good hitter but his fielding needs work sheffield gary not a good fielder blauser jeff fryman travis both are better off at shortstop gomez lee two consecutive horrible years for leo camden yards doesn t seem to have helped his fielding any palmer dean texas slugger debuts with not only the lowest career da but the lowest da at third ever congratulations dean dale j stephenson steph cs uiuc edu grad student at large it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information j golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	two stooges well the red sox have apparenly resigned herm winningham to a aaa contract ted larry simmons signed him to a aaa contract then released him from buffalo allowing lou curly gorman to circumvent the rule about not resigning free agents until may clearly neither of these guys is bright enough to be moe mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com make it right before you make it faster
rec.sport.baseball	re yankee fears rawley eastwick
rec.sport.baseball	re notes on jays vs indians series in apr webo dg com lyford dagny webo dg com lyford beverage writes in article apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes in article rudyc fr q cl netcom com rudy netcom com rudy wade writes in article c fmxd pm cs dal ca niguma ug cs dal ca gord niguma writes reference to history because he certainly didn t have the best season for second basemen in history he probably didn t even have as good a season as alomar last year what do you have some measure like popularity in toronto doesn t count that you are basing this statement on uh yes baerga has a lot of flash but alomar was the better hitter last year batters ba slg obp g ab r h tb b b hr rbi bb so sb cs e baerga c alomar r this is fascinating you say that alomar was the better hitter last year and immediately follow that up with numbers showing that baerga had a better year the only category that i see which shows an advantage for alomar is obp hmmm what about walks and sb baerga got clobbered by alomar in obp and beat him in slg by a lesser margin even putting aside any other factors a player with a point edge in obp is more productive than a player with a point edge in slg the issue has been studied before and i doubt you could come up with any convincing argument the other way people see the batting average and the hr but they don t really know their value is worth unless they ve studied the issue closely the fact is that baerga ate up a lot more outs than alomar while baerga was making outs alomar was drawing walks and being on base for carter winfield et al gord niguma fav player john olerud
rec.sport.baseball	sandberg runs rbis was re notes on jays vs indians series in article c jm m jw cs dal ca niguma ug cs dal ca gord niguma writes alomar fans left rbi fans and runs off this list because they are dependant on the team to a large extent if frank thomas hit first he d lose a lot of rbi s and anyways how many nd place hitters have you known to drive in runs doesn t happen that often very unlikely with devon white s obp in front of you i m pretty sure that sandberg has done this at least once i know someone will correct me if i m wrong rbis and runs scored are the two most important offensive statistics you can talk about obp and slg all you want but the fact remains the team that scores more runs wins the game flame away john bratt gord niguma fav player john olerud
rec.sport.baseball	re torre the worst manager in article hydra gatech edu gt a prism gatech edu brian r landmann writes joe torre has to be the worst manager in baseball for anyone who didn t see sunday s game with a right hander pitching he decides to bench lankform a left handed hitter and play jordan and gilkey both right handers later in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts lankford a hitter with power in as a pinch runner and uses luis alicea a hitter with no power as a pinch hitter what the hell is he thinking educate yourself before you rip on this years manager of the year lankford injured himself in a previous game and torre was resting him as far as the whitten gilkey controversy whitten adds some more needed power and if jordan continues to hit the way he has been gilkey will find himself in the starting lineup soon enough sam brian landmann georgia institute of technology internet gt a prism gatech edu
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players hank greenberg was probably the greatest ever he was also subject to a lot of heckling from bigots on the opposing teams and in the stands but it never seemed to affect his performance negatively bob davis rbd thor ece uc edu
rec.sport.baseball	re omar vizquel grand salami do you think omar s grand slam is the result of his new fan club last week a banner appeared in the kingdome older women for omar cheryl cheryl marks hp ux address cherylm lsid hp com hp desk cheryl marks hpa telenet ma bell usps cheryl marks ms soper hill road everett wa too much of a good thing is wonderful mae west
rec.sport.baseball	re pleasant yankee surprises in article apr alleg edu luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer writes actually i kind of liked the abott trade we did trade the rookie of the year snow but with don mattingly at first for another years why bother i d be willing to make two wagers snow doesn t win roy mattingly is out of baseball within five years i m skeptical of the first because i don t think snow is that good a player and he is on a losing team i m skeptical of the second because of his back mattingly is this year and how many players play until they are not too many and most of them didn t have chronic back problems when they were could be wrong on either or both but i think that s the smart way to bet cheers valentine
rec.sport.baseball	re baseballisdead scott asd com scott barman writes forget it word has it three divisions with a wild card is just about a done deal it has to be decided soon since negotiations with the networks also have to begin soon preliminary negotiations started already i believe though the word is that they are going slooooooooooooooooooooooowly greg
rec.sport.baseball	re let s talk phillies article from as follows from bml ns cc lehigh edu brian michael lucy subject re let s talk phillies date apr gmt organization lehigh university lines in article uflkll vpcekw e andrew cmu edu al x andrew cmu edu amit likhy ani writes excerpts from netnews rec sport baseball apr re let s talk phillies u msopher vaxc stevens like this oh well how do we spell cellar p i r a t e s ninja jew are there any philly fans who want to put money on that if not stop your woofing ben rivera got hammered true last week but tonight he pitched shutout innings and got runs behind him that s why we re one phrase for you fuck you thanks
rec.sport.baseball	re notes on jays vs indians series in article apr news acns nwu edu edo casbah acns nwu edu edward ouellette writes my point rbi might not be a perfect stat but nothing is and no stat or lack of can tell me there are no clutch hitters maybe no stat can tell me either but some people are i just know it i was hoping somebody would mention clutch clutch baerga the two words simply do not go together with runners in scoring position baerga batted last year this doesn t quite suck but most batters hit better in this situation alomar he hit with runners in scoring position the difference alomar had rbis in such ab baerga had rbis in such ab baerga got more chances yet succeeded only more times frankly i don t believe in clutch but if i did my vote would go to alomar for mvp let alone best b in the al valentine
rec.sport.baseball	re dave kingman for the hall of fame steve tomassi writes hi baseball fans so what do you say don t you think he deserves it i mean heck if dave winfield ho hum is seriously being considered for it as is lee smith ha then why don t we give dave kingman a chance or darrell evans yeah yeah after the hall of fame takes in them it can take in eddie murray and jeff reardon unfortunately you seem to lack the ability to rate players dave winfield has had a better career than half the people in the hall of fame eddie murray and darrel evans are both one of the top players of all time lee smith has had probably the greatest long career of any relief pitcher since with the possible exception of gossage on the other hand kingman probably isn t one of the best players of all time and reardon though a good pitcher isn t in smith s class career wise well in any case i am sick and tired mostly sick of everybody giving hall of fame consideration to players that are by today s standards marginal honestly ozzie smith and robin yount don t belong there they re both shortstops that just hung around for a long time big deal we re talking of the top players of all time here there probably aren t shortstops in history who were better than these two let s be a little more selective huh stop handing out these honors so liberally save them for the guys who really deserve it face it if something isn t done there will be little prestige in the hall of fame anymore when certain individuals believe that steve garvey or jack morris are potential candidates the absurdity is apparent garvey sucked morris while a very good pitcher simply doesn t belong near cooperstown gee can these guys even compare to the more likely future hall of famers like kirby puckett or nolan ryan if puckett and ryan okay no if there get into to the hall they will be marginal hall of famers unless puckett keeps hitting like he did last year for a while longer to put this in perspective here s a listing of the linear weights values of the careers of the players you mention in parenthesis is how high they are up on the greatest ever list if they make it while no one would claim these are perfect rankings they should give you a good value of these guys careers as compared to average players robin yount ozzie smith dave winfield eddie murray darrel evans kirby puckett nolan ryan jack morris dave kingman steve garvey to give you an idea of how these numbers compare to those in the hall of the eligible players whose career stats equaled are in the hall of fame the ones who aren t include th century players ron santo bobby grich and bob johnson of those eligible who score between and of are in of those eligible who score between and of are in greg
rec.sport.baseball	re phillies a new ballpark in future in a philadelphia inquirer a few days ago it was reported that there were two plans for a new phillies stadium the already mentioned th street station proposal and a location near broad street and race street i think i can t remember the exact details but the stadium would be build practically downtown there is a small lot that could be used according to the paper the th street plan has run into some trouble because amtrak does not want to reroute some of its lines in order to accomodate the stadium i don t have an opinion just yet just letting everyone know that there are really two options being discussed right now neither of these plans will be put into effect very soon however because nobody wants to pay for it keith keller let s go rangers let s go quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs when i want your opinion i ll give it to you
rec.sport.baseball	box score abbrev woes can anybody figure out why some box score abbreviations make absolutely no sense at least in the local gannett rag that finds its way to my door i must have stared at cleman in the mets box for a good seconds this morning wondering who the hell it was wouldn t it make more sense to use colemn jay
rec.sport.baseball	re infield fly rule one last infield fly question that has always puzzled me and hasn t yet been addressed i believe the rule also does not deal with this situation if infield fly is declared and the ball is caught runners can tag up and advance at their own risk as on any fly ball however if the infield fly is not caught at what point can a runner legally leave his base w o fear of being doubled off for advancing too early when the ball hits the ground when a fielder first touches the ball after it hits the ground enlightenment would be appreciated jay
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players baseball players past and present we weren t able to come up with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and maybe john lowenstein can anyone come up with any more i know it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this but humor us thanks for your help john lowenstein is definately not jewish many in baltimore thought he was especially after he told the baltimore jewish times so but later he admitted that it was a joke
rec.sport.baseball	re wfan in article c jc z knd news udel edu philly ravel udel edu robert c hite wrote wip took two of your best sports jockeys too jody macdonald and steve fredericks dude are you nuts wfan is second to none jody mac s exit was quite a loss but if you think fredericks on the fan was much of one you re pretty skewed sean
rec.sport.baseball	re the phillies deja vu in article ericsc hzr eui netcom com erics netcom com eric smith writes yeah the phillies played over their heads almost the whole year but it all caught up to them in one game streak i am as old as man and i was a big phillies fan at the time age the dodgers or somebody else finish two games back that has to be one of the closest last minute scrambles ever since i was born in the late pleistocene i too remember that year the dodgers were several games out of first and i think finished sixth in the league this was kind of odd because they won the world series both the previous year and the following year warren usui i m one with the universe on a scale from to
rec.sport.baseball	re the phillies deja vu previously i wrote yeah the phillies played over their heads almost the whole year but it all caught up to them in one game streak i am as old as man and i was a big phillies fan at the time age september is still a painful thing to remember but i can tell you that the phillies never led the league by that year going by memory alone i believe their biggest lead was games and they were ahead when the famous game losing streak began a streak during which it seemed that they found just about every way to lose known to man anyway i think they rebounded just before the end and won their last couple games and were still in the thing until the final day but finished tied with the giants one game out and didn t the dodgers or somebody else finish two games back that has to be one of the closest last minute scrambles ever ok you guys stirred up my childhood memories so i went and did some research on the final month or so of the season it turns out that my recollections were pretty darn accurate at least as far as the phillies record goes on september this was the top of the n l standings w l gb philadelphia cincinnati st louis san francisco this is a game by game description of the remainder of the phillies season date score opponent lead pitcher starting and winner loser houston bunning houston short houston bennett san francisco mahaffey baldschun win san francisco bunning san francisco short baldschun los angeles bennett los angeles wise los angeles mahaffey st louis bunning baldschun cardinals take over nd place from cincinnati st louis short san francisco bennett san francisco mahaffey giants move into a tie for nd with st louis san francisco bunning cardinals back in sole possesion of nd place houston short houston bennett houston bunning los angeles wise schantz los angeles short baldschun los angeles bennett baldschun los angeles bunning reds move back into tie for nd with cardinals well so far so good for the phillies but now it all falls apart cincinnati mahaffey reds take sole possesion of nd place cincinnati short cincinnati bennett milwaukee bunning milwaukee short boozer cards now back in rd giants in th milwaukee mahaffey schantz milwaukee bunning phils lose games in days reds take over st cardinals back in rd st louis short cardinals take over nd place phils drop to rd st louis bennett reds and cardinals now tied for st st louis bunning cardinals take game lead over reds cincinnati short roebuck phillies halt game losing streak cards lead reds by game did not play cards lose to mets reds tied for st phils game back cincinnati bunning cards beat mets take first by from reds and phillies whew what a finish and the final standings were w l gb st louis philadelphia cincinnati san francisco now it doesn t appear to me that phillies pitchers bunning and short were really overused at least by the four man rotation standard of the day until well along into the game losing streak at which time mauch was probably desperate for a win at any cost because the phillies substantial lead had evaporated the way they were used at that time may have made the problem worse although bunning had one of his sharpest games of the year in the final day shutout of the reds that cost the reds a share of the pennant bunning pitched a complete game six hitter striking out five and walking one it would be inetersting to see though how the total innings for the year for bunning and short stacks up against the rest of the league also notice that the phillies played every day from at least september through october while they didn t play substantially more games than the other teams the other teams each had a couple days off during that stretch eric smith erics netcom com erics infoserv com ci
rec.sport.baseball	the bob dylan baseball abstract just a little something i found while reading the village voice which is not noted for its sports coverage but occasionally the print some interesting features this year the predictions team analyses for the season were presented in the form of bob dylan lyrics i don t have the article in front of me so i ll only give the memorable ones here that i remember and know the melody to i could dig up more if there is interest yankess to the tune of subterranean homesick blues howe is in the basement mixing up the medicine george is on the pavement thinking bout the government wade boggs in a trench coat bat out paid off says he s got a bad back wants to get it laid off look out kids it s somethin you did don t know when but it s columbus again mets to the tune of like a rolling stone once upon a time you played so fine you threw away dykstra before his prime didn t you people said beware cone he s bound to roam but you thought they were just kidding you you used to laugh about the strawberry that was headin out but now you don t talk so loud now you don t seem so proud about having to shop vince coleman for your next deal phillies to the tune of highway well daulton and dykstra should have some fun just keep them off of highway giants to the tune of the ballad of rubin hurricane carter this is the story of the magowan the man st petersburg came to pan for something that he never done he sits in the owner s box but one day he could have been the tampian of the world bill moakler lpo rutgers anime moakler remus rutgers edu po box atlantic anime alliance new brunswick nj chibi con i am not an otaku i am a free man
rec.sport.baseball	going to a cubbies game well after suffering from an intense fit of minnesota induced cabin fever i ve decided to road trip to milwaukee and take in a couple of games this weekend a couple games at county stadium will be great to relieve tension but i thought why not go to wrigley for a game too i see the cubs are playing the phillies on sat start i believe that s eastern time listed i figured it would be fun to bounce down to wrigley for the day game and live it up a little i m wondering if anyone esp cubbie fans have some advice on if i m taking skokie hwy south until it runs into what s the best way to get to wrigley i m planning on getting there an hour or two early and paying through the nose for parking to keep things easy is it probable that i ll be able to walk up and get bleacher seats or on game day i figure since it s early in the year ryno s out and the weather isn t great i should be able to get tickets if not what s the best way to get advance tickets can i call the cubs ticket office directly and pick up tickets at the will call window any advice on where to eat before or after the game do they allow inflatable i luv ewe dolls present from lundy into the bleachers dave hung like a jim acker slider kirsch blue jays do it again in kirsch staff tc umn edu new quotes out of context not to beat a dead horse but it s been a couple o weeks this disappoints me punishments discharges jackhammering stephen lawrence
rec.sport.baseball	re yankee fears i would e mail this to you but my mailserver doesn t recognize you or something anyway the worst pitcher on the yanks if you mean currently on the team then i have to go with scott i m a schizophrenic no i m not kamienicki sure occasionally the guy can pitch well for or innings but then he starts to go insane a sure sign that he s losing his stuff and his mind is when he starts to stalk around the mound between batters and yell at himself the worst all time yanks pitcher gotta go with ed new york i have to pitch in gulp new york whitson nuff said i m outta here like vladimir alan sepinwall xviii what s this this is ice this is what happens to water when it gets too cold this this is kent this is what happens to people when they get too sexually frustrated val kilmer real genius
rec.sport.baseball	re sandberg runs rbis was re notes on jays vs indians series in article c jqby m a news rich bnr ca bratt crchh a nosubdomain nodomain john bratt writes rbis and runs scored are the two most important offensive statistics you can talk about obp and slg all you want but the fact remains the team that scores more runs wins the game flame away so what does that have to do with rbi s the team with the most rbi s doesn t necessarily win the game yes runs are the most important statistice for a team so why does every newspaper rank team offense by batting average but for an individual player runs and rbis are context dependent and tell us very little about the player himself and more about his teammates and position in the batting order ted frank thf kimbark uchicago edu i m sorry the card says moops the u of c law school standard disclaimers
rec.sport.baseball	re old predictions to laugh at tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes from jpalmer uwovax uwo ca thu sep ron hassey will be a minor league manager with the yankees dunno what happened to him maybe i can help you he s a major league coach with the rockies so above prediction is doubly wrong my prediction the red sox cubs series and vikings broncos superbore will occur at the end of the world and one rockie will finish in the top of an offensive catagory this year and no rockie starter will have an era below and the rangers fade will not begin until august they ll give way to the angels but still challenge to the end really not making any of this up if i am may god strike me down zzzzzzt thanks for listening valentine dylan wilbanks environ con the official usenet rabid fan of the major u of colorado boulder colorado rockies clip this sig for po box boulder co off on your next rockies woof life is bigger this space intenionally blank
rec.sport.baseball	phils nl east not so weak i love it how all of these people are blaming the phillies success on a weak division why don t we look at the record of the teams in each division read inter divisional play we ll see that the east is really kicking the shit out of the west i know it is early but that is all we have to go on atlanta is just so strong with their ba cincinnati is coming off a sweep at veteran s stadium in philadelphia and houston was swept in it s first three games by the phillies in the astrodome that my western division friends shows that the three best teams in your division may not be as strong as you think phils all the way in braves hit like a aaa club reds need marge bob
rec.sport.baseball	lots of runs i have noticed that this year has had a lot of high scoring games at least the nl has i believe one reason are the expansion teams any thoughts charles
rec.sport.baseball	re torre the worst manager in article hydra gatech edu gt a prism gatech edu brian r landmann writes joe torre has to be the worst manager in baseball for anyone who didn t see sunday s game with a right hander pitching he decides to bench lankform a left handed hitter and play jordan and gilkey both right handers later in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts lankford a hitter with power in as a pinch runner and uses luis alicea a hitter with no power as a pinch hitter what the hell is he thinking for your information lankford is injured i think it is his shoulder or rib cage so he could not use him as a pinch hitter earlier in the game in an interview about acquiring mark whiten he commented how fortunate the cardinals were to get whiten and that whiten would be a regular even though this meant that gilkey would be hurt but torre said he liked gilkey coming off the bench gilkey hit over last year what does he have to do to start the guy would be starting on most every team in the league i do believe that whiten was a very good aquisition for the cards he does not have too much offensive capabilities but he is an awesome defensively since when have the cardnials actually thought of offense instead of defense i forgot who st louis gave up for him but it was not too much as far as gilkey is concerned he is a leftfielder and so is brian jordan who beat him out i expect to see a gilkey jordan platoon in lf furthermore in sundays game when lankford was thrown out at the plate the replay showed bucky dent the third base coach looking down the line and waving lankford home i agree with you on this one as soon as larkin threw that ball i knew that lankford was a dead bird but how could dent have known that larkin would make a perfect throw i strongly believe that torre is one of the best managers in baseball don t forget the overachieving cards of that won all those close games and went from last place to second place although they were oveshadowed by the braves twins last to first climb he won a division title and barely lost a pennant race when he was with the braves why atlanta ever even considered firing him i will never understand with torre at the controls the cardinals are heading in the right direction one more thing one game does not make a season yes they lost to the reds but with the second best pitching staff in the national league first in the east and a pretty good offense the redbirds will win a lot more than they lose maybe this is the year that they will go all the way charles a very enthusiastic cardnials fan charles rosen thirty four to thirteen university of alabama national champs roll tide tuscaloosa al need i say more
rec.sport.baseball	the bob dylan baseball abstract reposted without permission from rec music dylan in article apr uvaarpa virginia edu buck vax museum upenn edu wrote for those of you who like both bob and baseball check out the current village voice april p john lammers and hart seely have written the bob dylan baseball abstract and they have covered every team in both leagues example colorado an the silent bats will shatter from the scores between the lines for they re one too many castoffs and a thousand runs behind rebecca buck vax museum upenn edu gerry myerson
rec.sport.baseball	re why spanky on mon apr gmt in apr mnemosyne cs du edu greg spira gspira nyx cs du edu wrote does anybody in the pittsburgh area know why mike lavalliere was released last year i kept saying that slaught should get the bulk of the playing time that he was clearly the better player at this point but leyland insisted on keeping a pretty strict platoon and now he is released that doesn t make any sense to me greg the story goes like this spanky is too slow if he were quicker he would still be here but with slaught and tom prince they didn t want to lose prince in order to bring up that th pitcher slaught is about as good as spanky and prince is coming along nicely don t feel too bad for him he s still gonna get theat over the next two years he ll be able to do most of what he wants to do jon iain boone network systems administrator boone psc edu iain cmu edu pittsburgh supercomputing center i don t speak for anyone other than myself unless otherwise stated
rec.sport.baseball	re braves pitching updatedir not clear to me at all i d certainly rather have a team who was winning games than games in the game luck is going to play a much bigger role than in the game but you still need the pitching staff to hold the opposing team to one run sam sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players in article qkkodinn f jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo a iglesias writes in article apr lafibm lafayette edu vb lafibm lafayette edu vb writes just wondering a friend and i were talking the other day and we were for some reason trying to come up with names of jewish baseball players past and present we weren t able to come up with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and maybe john lowenstein can anyone come up with any more i know it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this but humor us thanks for your help thanks bobby hank greenberg would have to be the most famous because his jewish faith actually affected his play missing late season or was it world series games because of yom kippur i thought that was sandy koufax sam pablo iglesias pi ruth ece jhu edu
rec.sport.baseball	re jose canseco s swing vs in article c jkik zf ucdavis edu ez dale ucdavis edu gary built like villanueva huckabay writes was going over some videos last night and you wrote an excellent report about it he s bulked up too much period he needs to lose about pounds not gain more bulk his bat speed has absolutely vanished conservatively i d say he s lost of his bat speed and that s a huge amount of speed that open stance is killing him note that he acts sort of like brian downing way open to start then closes up as ball is released downing could do this without significant head movement canseco can t also note that canseco doesn t always close his stance the same way sometimes his hips are open sometimes they re fully closed without a good starting point it s hard to make adjustments in your swing i understand from an unreliable source that canseco was considered expendable by the a s when he refused to accept any coaching about his batting stance the a s brain trust came to believe that his back problems were exacerbated if not caused by having a wide open stance closing it quickly and then swinging with a lot of torque that s a paraphrase of what i remember in any event canseco took the road that he and he alone would decide his stance and the a s began to believe that he would either reinjure himself or begin to lose his ability to hit for both average and power aside from salting away a large sum of a cash that i could never touch so that i d never have to work again i d restructure my entire swing apparently you sound like larussa second drop pounds cut out the weight work the a s also objected about this if canseco s open stance and resulting bad habits are a result of his back problems he ll be out of baseball in three years if not he could still hit hr again i m just repeating something i heard but possibly the cause and effect is the reverse of that the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players you can add steve rosenberg one time white sox reliever now in the mets system to the list greg
rec.sport.baseball	the bob dylan baseball abstract just a little something i found while reading the village voice which is not noted for its sports coverage but occasionally the print some interesting features this year the predictions team analyses for the season were presented in the form of bob dylan lyrics i don t have the article in front of me so i ll only give the memorable ones here that i remember and know the melody to i could dig up more if there is interest yankess to the tune of subterranean homesick blues howe is in the basement mixing up the medicine george is on the pavement thinking bout the government wade boggs in a trench coat bat out paid off says he s got a bad back wants to get it laid off look out kids it s somethin you did don t know when but it s columbus again mets to the tune of like a rolling stone once upon a time you played so fine you threw away dykstra before his prime didn t you people said beware cone he s bound to roam but you thought they were just kidding you you used to laugh about the strawberry that was headin out but now you don t talk so loud now you don t seem so proud about having to shop vince coleman for your next deal phillies to the tune of highway well daulton and dykstra should have some fun just keep them off of highway giants to the tune of the ballad of rubin hurricane carter this is the story of the magowan the man st petersburg came to pan for something that he never done he s sit in the owner s box but one day he could have the tampian of the world
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players in article apr lafibm lafayette edu vb lafibm lafayette edu vb writes it s stankiewicz not stankowitz and he s not jewish he s polish by the way the correct pronunciation according to stanky himself is ston kev itch all the sportscasters get it wrong polish and jewish are not mutually exclusive mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	re pleasant yankee surprises in article apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes in article apr alleg edu luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer writes i d be willing to make two wagers snow doesn t win roy mattingly is out of baseball within five years i m skeptical of the first because i don t think snow is that good a player and he is on a losing team i don t have a history handy but i don t recall that the preponderance of roy s come from winning teams in fact i think team performance is generally irrelevant as almost always the most deserving candidate wins am i wrong and he is not necessarily on a losing team while the angels staff is still very weak their everyday lineup is doing quite well thank you snow is playing great salmon is learning to make the adjustments easley appears fine but even if he s not flora is ready to come up between gonzales and gruber they ll manage the hot corner polonia and curtis are steady and heady even myers and orton are contributing personally i think they can finish over which makes them a winning team the beastmaster i m skeptical of the second because of his back mattingly is this year and how many players play until they are not too many and most of them didn t have chronic back problems when they were could be wrong on either or both but i think that s the smart way to bet cheers valentine mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	music censorship survey please fill out hello i m doing a paper on censorship in music and i would appreciate it if you took the time to participate in this survey please answer as each question asks why simply means that you have room to explain your answer if you chose the last question is for any comments questions or suggestions thank you in advance please e mail to the address at the end i are you male female ii what is your age iii what is your major occupation iv what type of music do you listen to check all that apply a hard rock b metal c alternative d blues e rap f jazz g soft rock h easy listening i country j classical k hard core l dance m new age n others did i miss any do you think recordings with objectionable or offensive lyrics be labeled yes no why do you think certain recordings should be banned from minors under years of age yes no why do you think certain recordings should be banned period yes no why if yes to any of the above who should decide a parents b government c music industry d other feel free to add any comments on this do you think more less should be done for controling record sales or do you think the present labeling system is enough what is your definition of censorship also feel free to add comments suggestions questions or further explanations please e mail at mtt kepler unh edu or hit r to reply thanks matthew t thompson disclaimer if any responses are used in paper they will be anoynamous sp unless the person specifies they what their name to be used this sig is closed for repairs ution matthew t thompson rrrrrrr pound pound thud ouch duh e mail at mtt kepler unh edu or shazam unh edu
rec.sport.baseball	erickson keith miller hi i was just wondering if anyone knew when erickson and keith miller are expected to come back and what exactly ails them sincerely frank s kim
rec.sport.baseball	re dave kingman for the hall of fame i m no kingman fan just thought i d point out that he s the only player in history to have five three hr games joe carter has four eddie murray three mccovey and gehrig also three ruth mays foxx and dawson two each i don t think reggie s ws game counts else i believe he would also have had two the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	re braves pitching updatedir in article apr ulkyvx louisville edu pjtier ulkyvx louisville edu writes if the braves continue to average runs a game then is where they will finish p tierney so if the braves run production falls to per game which is certainly where it s headed if they re lucky does that mean they ll finish first econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke s to my correspondents my email has been changed e l my new address is fls econ duke edu d f if mail bounces try fls raphael acpub duke edu u
rec.sport.baseball	re sandberg runs rbis was re notes on jays vs indians series bratt crchh a nosubdomain nodomain john bratt writes rbis and runs scored are the two most important offensive statistics actually they re pretty worthless if you want to evaluate players with stats rbis and runs scored should be banned all they do is confuse victims of mediot brainwashing like yourself you can talk about obp and slg all you want but the fact remains the team that scores more runs wins the game uh so you ve just explained why we use obp and slg to evaluate players precisely because the team that scores more runs wins the game traditional baseball stats have gotten way too far away from methods which enable fans to see who contributes to those runs scored that s where obp slg runs created linear weights etc come in these simplify matters so that we can more easily measure a player s offensive contribution to the team s runs scored thank you for making our case have a nice day greg
rec.sport.baseball	re wfan no he s not nuts wip is second to none the sports station they don t have tony bruno working espn radio and al morganti doing friday night hockey because they suck i live in richmond va but i visit phila often and on the way i get wtem washington and wip i hear the fan at night wherever i go the signal used to be wnbc when they played golden oldies because you can t avoid it of those three wip has the best hosts hands down chuck cooperstein isn t a homer and neither is jody mac wtem is too generic to be placed in the catergory in fact if you have heard wtem and the fan you notice the theme music is identical same ownership i think so wip is totally original their hosts actually have a personality this is a knock at tem the team not the fan because mike and the mad dog and sommers are good i mean comparing the morning guys in philadelphia to the ones in washington is a total joke anyway i like the fan and wip but i think the edge goes to ip when i get back from philly i go into withdraw cause richmond has nada except the national sports line and those guys are totally clueless i was really mad when wcau was cancelled because they had steve fredericks doing sports phone after the phillies games wcau is another strong station now it s an oldies station but they still have the phillies i started listening to the fan because i heard he went there i finally heard him last summer and he wasn t the same guy those ny fans got to him i was glad to hear him back in philly when i went to see a few eagles games i will admit i am die hard eagles fan and wip is basically an eagles station days a year but i bet you the phillies are in control right now about the knock on g cobb i like him he knows the eagles like a book i remember the weekend before they went to play san fran when everyone thought the eagles would be blown away cobb said that the eagles usually play their best when no one believe they can win well they were inches shy of pulling the victory well that s my
rec.sport.baseball	best sportwriters since someone brought up sports radio howabout sportswriting anyone give an opinion which city do you think has the best sports coverage in terms of print media these are general questions is the washington post better than the philadelphia inquier or the ny times howabout the philadelphia daily news compared to the new york daily news do you notice papers being subjective or objective to the home team
rec.sport.baseball	re notes on jays vs indians series something else to consider alomar s h r splits were slg obp baerga s was and pretty clearly alomar got a huge boost from his home park not necessarily it could mean that or it could mean that he just hit a lot better at home than he did on the road see frank thomas home road splits in for an example i would guess that some of alomar s split is due to the skydome but most of it is probably due just to coincidence there s no way to be sure of course but the only hitters the skydome seems to regularly help a lot are right handed home run hitters and alomar is not a home run hitter i d say you could make a good for them being about equal right now t p rated baerga higher actually only because of t p s bogus fielding stats which rate alomar as the worst defensive second baseman in the league on a career basis i think t p s fielding stats may mean something but on a seasonal basis it comes up with ridiculous results like this alomar may not be the god of fielding the media says he is but he sure isn t the worst in baseball offensively t p rate alomar much higher last year regarding the a vs b argument i ll just say they re both very good players with different strengths and a bright future greg
rec.sport.baseball	re all time best players in article apr princeton edu roger crux princeton edu roger lustig writes in article apr bsu ucs mbstultz leo bsuvc bsu edu writes i ve recently been working on project to determine the greatest players at their respective postions b career what about u johnny hodapp the greatest nd baseman in cleveland indians history hits in consistantly over a great great second baseman jon johnny hodapp jmhodapp aplcomm jhuapl edu
rec.sport.baseball	re best sportwriters csc imd cabell vcu edu ian m derby writes since someone brought up sports radio howabout sportswriting i happen to be a big fan of jayson stark he is a baseball writer for the philadelphia inquirer every tuesday he writes a week in review column he writes about unusual situations that occured during the week unusual stats he has a section called kinerisms of the week which are stupid lines by mets brodcaster ralph kiner every year he has the lgtgah contest that stands for last guy to get a hit he also writes for baseball america that column is sort of a highlights of week in review if you can check his column out sometime he might make you laugh rob koffler you live day to day and rkoffler ux cso uiuc edu dream about tomorrow don henley
rec.sport.baseball	re pleasant yankee surprises in article mssc k gi g netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes i don t have a history handy but i don t recall that the preponderance of roy s come from winning teams in fact i think team performance is generally irrelevant as almost always the most deserving candidate wins am i wrong not really though i wouldn t personally say the most deserving candidate wins rarely does a player win roy when called up in mid season and there have been several duds in recent years but this is more a factor of mediot biases than anything else i wonder if amaral hits like he is capable of will he receive roty votes he s only he could have a long career ahead of him and he is not necessarily on a losing team while the angels staff is still very weak their everyday lineup is doing quite well thank you snow is playing great salmon is learning to make the adjustments easley appears fine but even if he s not flora is ready to come up between gonzales and gruber they ll manage the hot corner polonia and curtis are steady and heady even myers and orton are contributing personally i think they can finish over which makes them a winning team i think they are a second division team they should finish ahead of the royals mariners and possibly athletics but i don t think they ll be above i think the east is stronger this year last year their pitching was bad and their offense was horrible this year their offense is better but their pitching is still pretty bad even if finley returns to form he won t replace what they lost in abbott sanderson farrell i don t believe it and while their ba may be good and they have decent speed their offense lacks punch they don t have any bona fide power hitters salmon snow davis and curtis none with more than hr potential cheers valentine p s which al team had the most steals last week those go go tigers the mediots finally managed to convince them that they needed more balance in their lineup you see they were scoring too many runs too consistently gotta run more to break that up
rec.sport.baseball	re survey yes i know this is not rec music as someone has already pointed out thanks i know that i m trying to get a random sample and also i m desperate for respones so please don t mail me complaining that it doesn t belong here or that it is wasting bandwidth this affects everybody not just readers of music groups please either complete the survey or hit n because i ll just bounce back complaints thank you matt matthew t thompson electrical computer engineering etallic university of new hampshire e mail mtt kepler unh edu or my evil twin at shazam unh edu
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players in article apr acad drake edu sbp acad drake edu writes i remember reading somewhere that of the league was jewish during the s now there is practically nobody
rec.sport.baseball	i think i am going to cry again yankees lose it again i can t believe this howe has an era in the s he is improving key pitches a great game and they screw it up again
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players in article c jsxs m unix amherst edu jlroffma unix amherst edu joshua lawrence roffman writes baseball players past and present we weren t able to come up with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and maybe john lowenstein can anyone come up with any more i know it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this but humor us thanks for your help john lowenstein is definately not jewish many in baltimore thought he was especially after he told the baltimore jewish times so but later he admitted that it was a joke stanky is not jewish at least i doubt it a lot of jewish people don t have jewish names
rec.sport.baseball	re pleasant yankee surprises in article apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes in article apr alleg edu luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer writes actually i kind of liked the abott trade we did trade the rookie of the year snow but with don mattingly at first for another years why bother i d be willing to make two wagers snow doesn t win roy mattingly is out of baseball within five years no you are quite correct but i was using some wishful thinking jt snow was wasting away while abbott can provide a great resourse for the team
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players in article qkkodinn f jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo a iglesias writes in article apr lafibm lafayette edu vb lafibm lafayette edu vb writes hank greenberg would have to be the most famous because his jewish faith actually affected his play missing late season or was it world series games because of yom kippur kofax missed world series game because of the jewish day of repentence
rec.sport.baseball	re ryan out for weeks and then cs aq news uta edu cs aq quoth nolan ryan has torn cartlidge inhis right knee is having surgery and is expected to miss weeks that s too bad i really had hoped nolan could end his career with a great year i suppose there is still hope jason lee jplee oboe calpoly edu jlee cash busfac calpoly edu giants e i pi the most beautiful equation in mathematics magic for all sad words of tongue and pen the saddest are these number it might have been john greenleaf whittier
rec.sport.baseball	braves offensive offense deion sanders hit a home run in his only ab today nixon was for infield single deion s batting over nixon around whom would you start wise up bobby see y all at the ballyard go braves chop chop michael mule michael andre mule georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism gt e internet gt e prism gatech edu
rec.sport.baseball	astros for real who thinks the astros are going places they re currently first place they re on the road
rec.sport.baseball	re cubs expos roster questions alird msu oscs montana edu writes today cubs activated p mike harkey from dl whom did they move to make room for harkey shawn boskie
rec.sport.baseball	re let s talk phillies in article apr leland stanford edu eechen leland stanford edu emery ethan chen writes one phrase for you fuck you thanks perhaps it s time to start rec sport baseball graffiti where the kiddies can go yell taunts and insults at each other and leave the rest of us in peace sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	re braves pitching updatedir in article apr acad drake edu sbp acad drake edu writes not clear to me at all i d certainly rather have a team who was winning games than games in the game luck is going to play a much bigger role than in the game but you still need the pitching staff to hold the opposing team to one run yeah but what s your point you still need the offense to score more runs than you allow too the braves do have a fine pitching staff but that s still only half the game sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	re why spanky in article ql binn s postoffice psc edu boone psc edu jon boone writes spanky is too slow if he were quicker he would still be here but with slaught and tom prince they didn t want to lose prince in order to bring up that th pitcher slaught is about as good as spanky and prince is coming along nicely tom prince is a year old no hit catcher think of him as a young dann bilardello i can t begin to fathom why the pirates have been so afraid of losing this guy who s been in aaa most of the last seasons the pirates released kirk gibson last year because prince was out of options then eventually sent prince down anyway and he cleared waivers without a peep he s another year older and still can t hit why do they think he wouldn t clear waivers now why would they care sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	re new home for the bosox i agree though i d also be happy with a stadium that looks like new comiskey the new park was also made for baseball unlike three rivers the vet riverfront etc it s not a football park in which they also play baseball while we re on the multipurpose subject let s not forget shea which was designed to accommodate both the mets jets it was the first stadium i think to have the box seats on rollers so they could be oriented at right angles for baseball in parallel for football of course with the jets gone to jersey and a truly good football stadium the mets are saddled with a multipurpose stadium where because it s circular the seats are almost always too far from the action the mets announcers kiner murphy in particular have always hyped it as beautiful shea stadium a tipoff to how unbeautiful it truly is jay
rec.sport.baseball	re orioles trivia bunker mcnally were later pappas estrada steve barber and jay
rec.sport.baseball	darrrrrrrrryl the media is beating the incident at dodger stadium on wednesday to death but i haven t seen anything in rsb yet gerald perry of the cardinals pinch hit in the eighth inning with two on and his club down by a run he stroked a line drive into the right field corner the ball cleared the three foot high fence and went into the crowd darryl racing over from right center got to the spot in time to reach his glove up over the short fence but he missed the ball a fan sitting in the front row wearing a mitt reached up and caught the ball home run now i ve seen the replay several times and i have concluded that darryl missed the ball and that the fan s glove was essentially behind darryl s several dodger fans with seats in the immediate vicinity have claimed that the fan unquestionably interfered with strawberry what cannot be disputed however is that the fan who caught the ball never took his eye off it he was oblivious to where the fielder was playing he was also quite exuberant as soon as he realized he had made the catch that exuberance disappeared immediately however when strawberry went into a tirade at the man all reports indicate he used a lot of profanity and accused the man of interference and therefore of costing the dodgers a game shortly afterwards other fans hurled food and beverages toward the man who made the catch dodger stadium officials started to remove him from the park but then relented and just relocated him to another area in an interview after the game lasorda blamed the fan for the loss strawberry also went into a tirade about how the fans are stupid and they don t care about winning l a times columnists similarly blasted the man who made the catch before each dodger game the public address announcer makes a speech wherein he says that fans are welcome to the souvenirs of balls that are hit into the stands as long as they do not interfere with any that are in the field of play was the fan wrong should he have been more aware of the situation and acted to avoid any possibility of interference or was he human and just reacting by the way he is a season ticket holder and on his request the dodgers have relocated his seats to another area of the stadium where future interference is impossible others have questioned why darryl should be so concerned with what the fan did when he has a grand total of rbi through the first nine games i question what he was doing in right center with a left handed pull hitter up and the game on the line had he been closer to the play he certainly would have had a much better chance of catching the ball but i guess the big debate continues as to what are the responsibilities of the fan the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	gross grosses out dodger fans again went to the dodgers game tonight it was cap night astacio pitched ok but had control trouble all night in the first he walked a batter balked him to second then a single scored the run with the batter taking second on the throw home another single made the score cards lasorda tried a new line up featuring butler reed and piazza batting third darryl and eric were benched in favor of snyder and webster piazza homered in the first to make the score cards the dodgers tied the game in the second on a two out single by offerman by the fourth inning astacio had already made about pitches but the score was still the dodger defense made several impressive plays piazza looked great behind the plate gunning down a runner trying to steal second throwing a runner out at first who had strayed a bit from first base etc karros also made a spectacular play keeping a ball from going into the outfield the runner on first was so sure that ball was going through he just kept running past second karros got up and threw to third and easily got the runner at third my heart sank in the th when gross got up to warm up in the bullpen astacio was lifted for a pinch hitter and when gross entered the game with the score still dodger fans just knew it was over gross was relieving because he stunk on tuesday pitching just innings forcing lasorda to use much of his bullpen the inning game had the same effect the next night so only gross was fresh given his light work out tuesday gross lived up to his name he walked the first batter gave up a hit to the second and walked the bases loaded after a grounder resulted in a force at home zeile lifted a scoring fly ball to make it cards gross paid little attention to the runners and the next thing you knew the cards had stolen a fourth run the runner on first was eventually tagged out in the run down but the th run had scored long before that meanwhile the dodgers mounted little offense after the second inning lee smith pitched the ninth he had little trouble getting karros and wallach does anyone have trouble with wallach these days cory snyder collected his first hit as a dodger a single but that was all the offense the dodgers could mount smith got his third straight save against the dodgers and all i got was my free dodger cap and a good look at piazza if piazza keeps this up all year he will be a strong candidate for rookie of the year honors though its really early karros is already showing signs of a sophomore jinx year the final score cardinals runs on hits dodgers runs on hits dodger
rec.sport.baseball	re fenway gif in article c jb d nt umassd edu acsddc smucs umassd edu writes i was wondering if anyone had any kind of fenway park gif i would appreciate it if someone could send me one thanks in advance dan me too i would like any park or action gif or jpeg about baseball geoff
rec.sport.baseball	game score report just out of curiosity what happened to the weekly al and nl game score reports i used to enjoy reading them throughout the summer for the last two years inquisitively yours joel joel chan joel math toronto edu dept of mathematics university of toronto toronto blue jays world series champs history those who ignore it are condemned to repeat it math too from the comic strip betty
rec.sport.baseball	jays game anyone know the outcome of tonight s jays game home runs winning pitcher eco gods at u w o
rec.sport.baseball	re young catchers in article mssc qa dtv netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes in article apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes i m still catching up from spring break but bear with me in the bigs especially when they haven t even played aaa ball we certainly believe this kid is going to be very good some day but there is really no need to rush him especially since we have a mega million dollar staff that is probably well served by a battery mate who is expereienced in game calling and pitcher handling lopez time will come let s give him some time in aaa javy lopez has proven over ab in the minor leagues that he is ready to play in the majors he is not being rushed players who are clearly too good for aa and play behind stiffs at the major league level are wasting their time and may actually have a court case against major league management for keeping them at aaa no maybe i need to improve my writing skills lopez who is very ordinary defensively is not likely to hit so well at age unless lopez is me defensively i m and born to play second base he belongs in the major leagues training what does he have to do to earn a chance maybe not a full time job but at least a couple starts and a few ab for him to prove his worth gee i don t know abs sounds pretty good to me about as good as your reasoning that the kid should play a back up role rather than start every day at aaa talk about me as a gm valentine isn t saying he should back up he s saying he should be put in a position to win the job in the major leagues which imho he would if given the opportunity val if i m misinterpreting please let me know so far you have come up with two arguments against lopez he is very ordinary defensively he is young and most players suck when they are young the first is irrelevant he s trying to make the majors with his bat and the second involves seriously warped reasoning valentine ok most players are not ready for the bigs at age see current related posting on clayton one of my favorites most players benefit rather than being stagnant or hurt by playing at aaa most catchers need to be solid defensively players to help their clubs in the bigs those are the arguments against lopez for the braves for this year but the players who are ready are the best and the ones most likely to benefit from being in the majors javy lopez is not a middle of the road prospect he s the real thing now again the most important thing a player can do is hit lopez does that miles better than olson or berryhill if his defense is good enough for greenville or richmond it s good enough for atlanta if he really was awful defensively he would no longer be a catcher see sprague ed now the braves have two catchers who have demonstrated solid abilities to call games to work with the pitchers to throw out runners not superstars mind you but solid experienced veterans the braves have a very solid lineup with two big bats in the outfield an excellent platoon at first a solid mvp candidate at third and one of the better hitting shortstops the center field platoon will probably hit however good lopez what they have to offset the differential in experience and defensive ability the kid will improve playing at aaa and he probably won t being a reserve with the big club oh where to start ok first of all solid good i want good players solid is one of those words used to describe nice white guys who really aren t very good at baseball think of it as twg without the caps it s a losing strategy to say we have solid guys we don t need to improve you used it four times in that paragraph btw same for experienced i might add though that greg olson and damon berryhill aren t exactly carter and fisk olson has played three years berryhill five although and were a wash the only difference imho between olson and valle is the supporting cast two big bats hrm i like justice but i find mr gant s trend disturbing call it one and a maybe the braves platoon is ok but neither player has any value outside of the platoon bream vs lh and hunter vs rh are awful i ll leave the thirdbase comment alone pendleton has wasted too much bandwidth already if the cf platoon hits i ll retrace mr likhani s midnight run down forbes and i live in ny and la got that mike and doesn t cox call pitches anyway goodness do you believe the other poster who thinks lopez is being held down because of his future earning potential why on earth do you people thinkthe braves made this decision are they idiots who have built this ballclub jeeeesh nope they re baseball management possible the most short sighted collection of people in the nation do you not believe this goes on mark do you think frank thomas needed those three months in aaa in or cal eldred wasn t really better than ricky bones last year and i m the treasure you re mostly polite make defensible if flawed cases have wit and have in the past admitted being wrong that does qualify you on r s b we ll make an sdcn out of you yet the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com sheehan aludra usc edu greg gohr pitching more like voice tipper gore i m afraid linda cohn sportscenter
rec.sport.baseball	re best sportwriters in article c k nk tv news cso uiuc edu rkoffler ux cso uiuc edu bighelmet writes csc imd cabell vcu edu ian m derby writes since someone brought up sports radio howabout sportswriting i happen to be a big fan of jayson stark he is a baseball writer for the philadelphia inquirer every tuesday he writes a week in review column he writes about unusual situations that occured during the week unusual stats he has a section called kinerisms of the week which are stupid lines by mets brodcaster ralph kiner every year he has the lgtgah contest that stands for last guy to get a hit he also writes for baseball america that column is sort of a highlights of week in review if you can check his column out sometime he might make you laugh might you d have to have no sense of humor at all not to my favorite stuff are the zero heros players who haven t hit homers in a long time the lgtgah who is that named after i can t remember and the box score line of the week incidentally i just found out that the column has been moved to sundays i get my dad to send it to me up here in boston every week great stuff adam a phaithful phillies phan levin
rec.sport.baseball	re phils nl east not so weak in apr guvax acc georgetown edu apanjabi guvax acc georgetown edu writes braves hit like a aaa club shouldn t this read braves hitters are at the aaa club dale j stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information j golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players there was an article on jewish major leaguers in a recent issue of elysian fields what used to be the minnesota review of baseball as i recall it had an amazing amount of research with a long list of players and a large bibliography peter binkley binkley let rug nl
rec.sport.baseball	early bbddd returns just curious if anyone has started to standout early in the season in the bb ddd this year i expect the phillies staff while getting the wins would have to rank up there luis gonzalez and derrick may are among the early league leaders and all of their bombs have come at the phils expense neither of them have exactly been know for their tater prowess in the past how have the rockies been early i know mile high has produced a ton of runs but is it the launching pad everyone expected yet a concerned fan of the bb ddd adam witness to the phillies lone loss of the season so far levin
rec.sport.baseball	royals the royals are darkness they are the void of our time when they play shame descends upon the land like a cold front from canada they are a humiliation to all who have lived and all who shall ever live they are utterly and completely doomed other than that i guess they re ok randall rhea informix software inc project manager mis sales marketing systems uunet pyramid infmx randall
rec.sport.baseball	re notes on jays vs indians series in article apr webo dg com lyford dagny webo dg com lyford beverage writes in article apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes in article rudyc fr q cl netcom com rudy netcom com rudy wade writes in article c fmxd pm cs dal ca niguma ug cs dal ca gord niguma writes he probably didn t even have as good a season as alomar last year snip uh yes baerga has a lot of flash but alomar was the better hitter last year stats deleted we ve all seen them by now this is fascinating you say that alomar was the better hitter last year and immediately follow that up with numbers showing that baerga had a better year the only category that i see which shows an advantage for alomar is obp i nominate this last bit for anti stathead quote of the week alomar only has a point advantage in the most important offensive category while baerga who studied in the joe carter school of out burning has more impressive mediot stats largely due to opportunities rather than quality the lines are fairly close in value but edge to alomar now baerga ain t chopped liver but alomar is still the man to beat among al second basemen craig craig s richardson crichar eskimo com formerly eskimo celestial com gm pullman sleepers obfbl gm seattle rainiers ifl gm manager tacoma black adders ibl gm new jack city highlanders kl tacoma black adders a growing excited team the future begins tomorrow
rec.sport.baseball	re lots of runs in rec sport baseball crosen ua vm ua edu charles rosen writes i have noticed that this year has had a lot of high scoring games at least the nl has i believe one reason are the expansion teams any thoughts except for the fact that there seems to be a lot of high scoring al games also and i don t think the expansion teams directly affect them k scott day kday oasys dt navy mil carderock division naval surface warfare center code bethesda maryland the point to remember is that what the government gives it must first take away john s coleman
rec.sport.baseball	proposed catcher re sub rule a lot of teams carry catchers on their man roster but the rd catcher is seldom ever used he is only insurance in case of extra innings or the nd catcher is injured during a game so to free up this roster spot for an extra pinch hitter or reliever why not invoke a catcher re substitution rule if the last roster catcher on a team is injured during a game the team is permitted to substitute in his place for defensive purposes a catcher who has previously been yanked from the game given this rule a team wouldn t need roster catchers the rd catcher could be playing in aaa or be a non roster bullpen catcher ken
rec.sport.baseball	re dopson pitches first shutout red sox win in article c r vt news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes jmann vineland pubs stratus com jim mann writes deleted someone told me this game started at cdt is this true who in their right mind would go to a game on monday at am keep in mind this was in massachussetts today was patriots day a state holiday i think it might be a floating holiday but given that the marathon also happens the same day most people don t go in include std disclaimer h dan s
rec.sport.baseball	all time peak players last week i posted the all time greatest players and haphazardly misspelled several names sorry this week it s time for the greatest peak players i evaluated the following players on consectutive seasons which constituted their prime or peak years was too few seemed to many so i settled for sources as usual include total baseball and my own biased opinions here goes feel free to comment ted williams includes season after war missed actual peak years babe ruth walter johnson mickey mantle mike schmidt actual peak year shortened by strike barrry bonds currently at peak honus wagner ty cobb tris speaker willie mays lefty grove sandy koufax joe morgan ed walsh christy mathewson lou gehrig jimmie foxx cal ripken jr pete alexander cy young tim raines rickey henderson again strike year included carl yastrzemski jackie robinson joe dimaggio rogers hornsby george sisler eddie collins hank aaron stan musial joe jackson wade boggs charlie gehringer ernie banks bob gibson carl hubbell robin yount rod carew chuck klein willie mccovey frank robinson tom seaver roger clemens arguably still in peak mel ott frank baker nap lajoie peak came in suspect league dizzy trout george brett mordecai brown ryne sandberg b peak gehrig foxx sisler mccovey greenberg frank thomas projected sorry dick allen johnny mize eddie murray yes mr consistency had a peak bill terry b morgan j robinson collins hornsby gehringer carew treated as a b even though played b sandberg bobby grich nap lajoie bill herman mazeroski tough call b schmidt boggs f baker brett ed mathews ron santo harland clift ken boyer buddy bell darrell evans ss wagner ripken banks yount john lloyd estimated arky vaughan barry larkin still in peak lou boudreau ozzie smith joe sewell lf williams ba bonds raines henderson actually had peaks yastrzemski musial j jackson ralph kiner al simmons george foster willie stargell cf mantle cobb speaker mays dimaggio oscar charleston again estimated duke snider ken griffey jr personal assumption kirby puckett richie ashburn dale murphy strike season rf ruth aaron klein f robinson ott roberto clemente tony gwynn dave parker reggie jackson harry heilmann jose canseco darryl strawberry c josh gibson estimated mickey cochrane gary carter johnny bench roy campanella yogi berra bill dickey gabby hartnett elston howard ted simmons joe torre p w johnson grove koufax walsh mathewson alexander young gibson hubbell seaver clemens satchel paige estimated d trout juan marichal mordecai brown joe wood dave steib jim palmer bob lemon fergie jenkins rp who cares i hope there are some surprises here raines above muisial carter above bench ripken above banks bonds above mays check the numbers of each player in comparison to the numbers of the rest of the players that year s and you ll see that i m fairly close with this ranking system which is primarily based on total player rating for four consecutive years enjoy mike
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris in sdcc ucsd edu demers cs ucsd edu david demers writes in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes the facts are that morris has shown us that he has what it takes to play on a ws winning club clemens hasn t what does it take to play on a ws winning club we have no way of knowing because we cannot separate morris contribu tion from the rest of the team s there is only one way of determin ing best in baseball and that is by looking at the scoreboard at the end of the game each game determines which team is the best that day at the end of the season the team that was the best the most often is the best in the division the playoffs determine the best of the best but the point is that the only decision making pro cess used to determine the best is the score of the game and it re lates to the teams not the individual players there is no method inherent in baseball of comparing individual performances and that is how it should be because after all baseball is a team game to say that one player is better than another is to be able to say ab solutely that player a s team would have played better with player b in their lineup sheer speculation impossible to ascertain if you want to select a group of statistics and claim that clemens has done better with those statistics as a criteria then fine but you have to be able to prove that those statistics measure the individual s contribution to winning the ws because that is the only measure of best that has any meaning in the context of base ball so until you can prove that clemens contributes to a ws cham pionship more than morris your evaluation of clemens is totally sub jective and is mere opinion i have yet to see that any of you can predict a ws winner with any greater accuracy than jeanne dixon the fact is that morris didn t win any ballgames toronto did in spite of morris contribution this has been explained to you exactly the jays won with morris pitching and boston wins with clemens pitching i am not saying that morris is better than clemens i am saying that individual comparisons between players are totally meaningless and that anyone claiming that clemens is better based on his era has missed the point of what baseball is all about many many times and you are either too stupid or too stubborn to grasp it you don t have to be rude you are completely consumed by the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy for you to say that means that you have either missed the entire point of my argument or you yourself have committed a fallacy ignoratio elenchi i am not saying that morris is better than clemens because he has more rings although i have tongue in cheek claimed that in the past i am saying that it is impossible to isolate an individual s performance from that of his team s for the purpose of comparing that individual s performance with another individual s per formance the stats are a nice hobby and that s about it there is no new knowledge being produced so when a poster claims that morris is better than clemens because he has more rings the poster is no more nor less incorrect than the rest of you baying hounds cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time
rec.sport.baseball	re hbp bb big cat in article c r tv s odin corp sgi com kubey sgi com ken kubey writes i don t blame players like galarraga dawson and mcgee when they swing at a strike and put the ball in play well no problem but i get pretty annoyed when they swing at non strikes and make outs especially ball four on the counts dave dave demers demers cs ucsd edu computer science engineering demers cs ucsd bitnet uc san diego ucsd cs demers la jolla ca or fax
rec.sport.baseball	re jose canseco s swing vs in article c r b d u ucdavis edu ez dale ucdavis edu gary man from villanueva huckabay writes it s certainly not very easy what i do is use frame advance on the tape and simply count the frames five times and try to throw out any outliers it s not perfect but it s better than a blow to the head with a large metal object ah so you finally found a use for that super slo mo and frame advance other than scrutinizing sorority babes in heat congrats i wish i had films instead of tapes preferably at fps rather than but while i m at it i d like to have ten million dollars and be able to eat anything i want and never gain any weight either trust me you d have a helluva time manipulating them besides if you converted the film to video you d have all kinds of artifacts because of the difference in frame rate unless you re an expert at doing pulldown for a laserdisc company or something gary s list of the ten slowest bats in baseball hey no fair what about fettucine alfredo griffin the guy practically has to pivot the bat around along with his body gary s list of how the hell can he hit like that julio franco phil plantier darren daulton daulton doesn t strike me as all that strange he s a little bit quiet at the plate but like franco gets the bat through the hitting zone on a level plane the first time i watched julio franco i didn t think anyone could hit like that now i marvel at how easy he makes it look every time he makes contact it s solid he s got good power to all fields and rarely is he caught not ready for a pitch i wonder if phil plantier had a severe bout with hemorrhoids and had to practice his swing while on the throne sure looks like it how bout one to add to your list travis fryman the guy plants his front foot and seems to swing across his body he generates a lot of power but i keep thinking he could generate even more if he could get a better pivot out of his hips gary s list of i d give dave kirsch s kidneys to have a swing like that well they re already spoken for by several people but i d add robbie alomar s name to the list among others i really like dean palmer s swing for some twisted reason as well as pedro munoz s swing that s all for now i m looking at derrick may s tapes tonight along with troy neel s that guy is a serious ox a thought about may it looks like they ve taught him to turn on the ball imho he s going to fall in love with his newfound power and start pulling off the ball to the point that he s going to see lots of sinkers sliders low and away unless he adjusts quickly and starts rifling doubles to left and left center imho you re going to see a good number of weak grounders to the right side of the infield in the next month dave hung like a jim acker slider kirsch blue jays do it again in kirsch staff tc umn edu new quotes out of context not to beat a dead horse but it s been a couple o weeks this disappoints me punishments discharges jackhammering stephen lawrence
rec.sport.baseball	re hispanic all star team icop csa bu edu antonio pera writes hispanic magazine april had a couple of interesting articles about hispanic players including its hispanic all star team some of the major points are npr s morning edition aired a report this morning on hispanic latin american players in mlb and how they have many of the same problems faced by black negro african american players when they first entered the league however although baseball has adjusted to the presence of black players many hispanic players still labor under the stereotype of being fireballs hot blooded flashy the report also emphasised that despite the rantings my word of jessie jackson about baseballs discrimination against black players in its upper echelons baseball has actually done much better by black players than hispanic players another interesting point was the language barrier problem the reporter elaborated on an interview with ruben sierra which he gave in spanish to a spanish speaking newspaper reporter with the fact that there are maybe major baseball writers that speak spanish despite the fact that spanish is one of if not the easiest languages to learn so easy that the author cormac mccarthy learned spanish at age in order to research his book all the pretty horses yet few mlb organizations employ spanish speaking personel one of the exceptions being the oakland a s another point nearly of latin american players have some african blood yet most report that they d never really felt black until playing ball in the us ironically enough it is the early presence of latin american baseball players in the major leagues that support the idea that baseball was integrated before the arrival of jackie robinson as many light black or brown latin americans were incorporated into baseball s i did not know the cure for the disease of images but i believed in the healing sandra vigil power of words and stories vigil esca com until the end of the world
rec.sport.baseball	re braves giants in article news duke edu fls keynes econ duke edu forrest smith writes cox should ve protested the game the second time the garbage got thrown at his outfielders he should also have protested the game at the point where ron gant was assessed the second strike in the ninth on the grounds that he cox was on the field and time should have been called both protests would be denied of course the umpire s judgement determines the garbage thing although i think the game should be called but that s my personal opinion doesn t matter there is time only when the ump says so the second argument is baseless dave
rec.sport.baseball	re braves giants the situation with the giants bleachers is a case in point for the need for a commissioner this is true but the main thing the commish i e selig needs to do is to suspend bobby cox you cannot allow a team to come out at the ump as the braves did i usually rip umps but in this case the players were dead wrong cox should go for games if i had ever umped a game where that happened i d have ejected every player that came out only cox and gant would have been spared and then cox would have gone in the ensuing argument dave
rec.sport.baseball	re hbp bb big cat in article c r tv s odin corp sgi com kubey sgi com ken kubey writes i suppose a foul ball machine like brett butler is pretty valuable but i d rather watch and root for the lower obp guys who can actually hit the ball and i d rather watch and root for a team that scores lots of runs and wins games of course i m rooting for the rockies and andres anyway but that s for irrational hometown reaons i also root for frank thomas david paschich
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes in apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes in article apr newshub ariel yorku ca cs ariel yorku ca shawn luddington writes hey valentine i don t see boston with any world series rings on their fingers yah so damn morris now has three and probably the hall of fame in his future he certainly didn t earn his last one how many games did he blow in the world series all of the ones he started he certainly did earn it he was a valuable member of the blue jay team not particularly in the world series during the season he was probably more valuable than say putting olerud out there to pitch but yeah he was valuable in getting them there in the postseason he sucked dirty canal water through a straw the jays won in spite of morris much more than because of him therefore i would have to say toronto easily made the best signing oh yes definitely therefore morris is better than clemens your definition of better refers to some measurement on a scale that has nothing to do with winning ws rings umm roger return with us to those halcyon days of a few postings ago where the poster valentine was replying to used of ws rings as a measure of better the concept is called context and you should really become familiar with it someday the facts are that morris has shown us that he has what it takes to play on a ws winning club clemens hasn t unless this transaltes to clemens hasn t gone into lou gorman s office with a large caliber handgun and refused to come out until he d been traded to the jays i m at a complete loss as to any possible meaning for it you can go on about what clemens has done in the past and claim that he is better than morris if you want to but the facts are that morris has shown us that he can win and clemens hasn t what on earth does this mean over their careers clemens has won of the games he s started morris per year clemens has averaged nearly wins morris just under would you grant the proposition that preventing the other team from scoring increases your chances of winning a game if so then consider that clemens allows runs innings pitched morris allows nearly a run more per nine innings in fact jack morris has never in his career had an era for a single year as good as clemens career era but i forget in the maynardverse there was obviously some mystical significance to buckner missing that grounder in had morris been on the sox it would have been a routine groundout right whether or not clemens is better by your standard of measurement is totally meaningless the object of the game is not to compile high figures in statistics that you have chosen to feel are important the object of the game is to contribute to ws victories but this has been patiently explained to you many many times and you are either too stupid or too stubborn to grasp it speaking of stupid it has been patiently and not so patiently explained to you many times that attributing greatness to players based on the accomplishments of their teams makes about as much sense as claiming that a racecar has the most attractive paint job because it won the race your continued failure to not only understand but even to intelligently reply to any of the arguments presented leads me to the conclusion that you must have spent a few too many games in goal without a mask don t give me that shit if boston had alomar olerud henke and ward while toronto had rivera jack clark jeff reardon things would have looked a little different last fall give credit where credit is due this lavishing of praise on morris makes me sick yes and the dog would have caught the rabbit too forget about what didn t happen and open your eyes for once and look out there and see what is really happening forget about how morris shouldn t have won with an era over when morris pitched last year the jays won stop crying about it and get on with life no one is crying the jays won and as a team they certainly deserved to win at least the al east they performed well in two short series and won the world series and i congratulate them for it as a red sox fan i hope they keep morris i was happy when they picked up stewart and elated when they traded for darrin jackson you see unless you believe in some mystical link between morris and the offense you can hardly help but believe that the man was credited with so many wins last year because he got lucky luck runs out just like it did in when he pitched odd more innings than gave up exactly one earned run more than in and went seriously roger i d really like to hear your explanation of the difference between the morris and the morris which one was a better pitcher and why did morris somehow learn how to win in the intervening ten years if so then why did he go in with minnesota with an era over half a run lower than mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com don t be humble you re not that great
rec.sport.baseball	re jack morris maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes it sure does and it all depends on the definition that you use for better yours is based on what could have been and mine is based on what really happened well actually most of ours is based on what really happened and yours is based on some fantasy of how it happened but that s ok i understand you have a hockey background stats like plus minus make rbi look good is it viola s fault that boston had no offense is it because of morris that the blue jays had such a strong offense don t tell me that morris has this magical ability to cause the offensive players to score more runs this is the perfect example of your problem you are isolating viola s contribution from the rest of the team s efforts you can only do this if you can say for sure what the team would have done without viola only then can you compare but you cannot know how the team would have done without viola your analysis is fallacious ok how about a straigh answer then here s a very simele question to which i m sure a fair number of us are very interesed in the answer to please answer yes or no roger can a pitcher cause the offensive players on his team to score more runs al only please for anyone else following along it is a well known and demonstrable fact that a team s win loss record is closely related to the number of runs the team scores and the number the team allows it s not a definite hard and fast function but there is definitely a correlation in fact as a rule of thumb if teams a and b both score x runs and team a allows y runs for every runs fewer than y that team b allows it will win another game so for instance if we look at the toronto blue jays we find that they scored runs and allowed of which morris allowed all other things being equal if frank viola with his era had replaced jack morris for the innings morris threw plausible since viola threw for boston the red jays would have allowed about fewer runs or enough for more wins now that doesn t take into account that viola pitched half his innings in fenway which is a harder park to pitch in particularly for a lefthander than skydome so um roger unless you really do believe that a pitcher can somehow affect the number of runs his team scores could you enlighten us to the fallacy in this analysis clearly it would be foolhardy to claim that viola would necessarily have put up a if he had been on the jay last year but that is not the claim we look at what the actual performances were and evaluate viola s as better than morris in the sense that had morris performed as viola did his team would have been better off it takes an open mind to really truly understand what is happening out here in the real world guys this is true but not so open that your brain falls out mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com computer if you don t open that exit hatch this moment i shall zap straight off to your major data banks and reprogram you with a very large ax got that zaphod beeblebrox
rec.sport.baseball	re so far so good the red sox ec b uhura cc rochester edu wizard writes i have posted two new postings on the net since i discovered how to use it and both times i received redicule for predicting the red sox as high as third in the al east id like to hear why it is people dont think the sox can be as high as third this year here are some of my observations well had you been a bit less exuberant in both the tone and substance of your predictions the responses would probably have been a bit more measured be that as it may roger and frank are in vintage form and the sox are rresponding to them clemens is always in this form and viola isn t really performing beyond what might reasonably have been expected how do you know that the sox are responding to them and not to al bumbry hobson or my most likely suspect new hitting coach mike easler i certainly am more likely to give easler credit for mo vaughhn s hot start than clemens or viola greenwell is hitting as he did before his injuries this was the optimistic scenario but not unreasonably so he hasn t shown much power yet though dawson is providing the leadership and some hitting they need from him how can you tell that dawson is providing the leadership perhaps it s calderon perhaps it s clemens and viola maybe hobson is finally showing those people skills he was supposed to have when they hired him or maybe it s all a myth and dawson has been hitting reasonably well but not as well as greenwell vaughn cooper or fletcher russell is finishing well in three games why don t we look at this one again in say july fletcher is hitting well as a leadoff hitter a bit better than could reasonably have been expected but don t forget that zupcic looked like wade boggs lite for about ab s last year beware of small sample sizes still if fletcher hits as well as he did last year he d be a great improvement over any sox leadoff hitter from last year be aware that his career numbers seem to indicate that he puts up good numbers as long as he doesn t have to make more than ab or so in a year cooper is hitting well i think he ll be better then boggs in the field and just as good at the plate ummm sorry no i can buy the in the field part and i think he ll be better at the plate than the boggs but in general cooper while he ll be a pretty good hitter couldn t carry boggs jockstrap with a little luck he could be the fourth or fifth best b in the al martinez boggs ventura and palmer will all be better if the sox pitch like last year they have a better pitchiong staff now and hit like they are so far they coiuld run away with thee division but since i think that their hitting and pitching may not be up to the challenge of running away with the division i think that they win be over and at least third if not second or first see here is where you make that quick left turn off into the aether is plausible third is not unlikely but phrases like could run away with the division are likely to get you a visit from the men in the white coats it s not really clear that their staff is better than last year if russell does well darwin doesn t go on the dl and hesketh doesn t pitch just barely well enough to avoid losing his spot in the rotation they could be better on the other hand if hesketh pitches miserably and they re too stupid to move him to the pen and bring up conroy or somebody fossas continues to pitch dismally but they keep giving him innings becasue he s a lefty and russell explodes they could be pretty bad mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com god is a comedian playing to an audience that is afraid to laugh mark twain
rec.sport.baseball	box scores i was wondering if anyone types in the box scores each day i am at college and am not able to get them till the weekend i would be thankful if someone could p mail the twins box scores every so often also i am looking for a twins schedule kesslerm columbia dsu edu
rec.sport.baseball	re phillies sign mark davis i had heard the rumors about la cin hou and sd all being interested in mark davis so it doesn t surprise me that a team had to give up something and cash to actually get him lynch mob ps anyone else draft this guy i really did and got a loud cry of when will you ever give up on this guy
rec.sport.baseball	re rockies spoon feed game to mets is it just me or does bichette look totally lost in the outfield he misplayed martinez fly out into a double against the expos misplayed alou s single into a triple alou tagged out at rd after over sliding the bag and now he misplays another out into a run triple add in his wonderful batting average and we have one heck of a player don boell
rec.sport.baseball	rockies two more errors more walks name pos ab h b b hr rbi rs sb e avg boston of galarraga b tatum b cole cf e young b hayes b murphy of bichette rf clark lf girardi c castilla ss benavides ss g young of pitchers p totals name l r ip h r er k bb era w l s wayne l aldred l smith r ashby r neid r parrett r blair r henry l ruffin l reed r holmes r totals
rec.sport.baseball	re torre the worst manager in article hydra gatech edu gt a prism gatech edu brian r landmann writes later in the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs he puts lankford a hitter with power in as a pinch runner and uses luis alicea a hitter with no power as a pinch hitter what the hell is he thinking didn t alicea get a hit though see y all at the ballyard go braves chop chop michael mule michael andre mule georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism gt e internet gt e prism gatech edu
rec.sport.baseball	re wfan in article c jc z knd news udel edu philly ravel udel edu robert c hite writes from philly ravel udel edu robert c hite subject re wfan date thu apr gmt in article apr virginia edu jja h virginia edu writes does any one out there listen to wfan for those of you who do not know what i am talking about it is an all sports radio staion in new york on a clear night the signal reaches up and down the east coast in particular i want to know how len berman and mike lupica s show is i go to school in virginia so i can t listen when there are on during the day just wondering the fan is an okay sports radio station but doesn t come close to the ultimate in sports radio wip in philadelphia the signal might not be as powerful but then again only stations in new york feel obligated to pollute everyone else s airwaves with a bunch of hoodlum mets fans complaining hours a day wip took two of your best sports jockeys too jody macdonald and steve fredericks wip is rockin with sports talk from am till midnight check it out anytime your within a few hours of philadelphia if i m not mistaken wip has the highest sports talk ratings in the nation i m from dallas and you have alot of nerve saying that wfan has a bunch of hoodlum mets fans during the football season the local cowboy station here had the wip on several times for simultanious broadcasts i have never heard a bigger bunch of low intellect bed wetting obnoxious woofing cranial deformed assholes in my entire life the iq of the average eagles fan must be in the range at best and they have been known to be big droolers please no flames let s see if it works for me bob kevin p kerr kkerr mkcase dseg ti com s a b r member since go yankees go dolphins strolling through cyberspace sniffing the electric wind
rec.sport.baseball	re phils nl east not so weak that s very true i live in richmond home of the aaa richmond braves and they have this guy ryan klesko who hit hr s at home last year now that doesn t sound like a whole lot but the way the diamond is built home runs are a rarity in fact ron gant brian hunter and david justice all proved they could hit in richmond when they were sent to the majors they never came back if you can hit in richmond you can hit anywhere so far after beating scranton phillies in the first game the best team in aaa history has been rather underwhelming too many expectations i guess
rec.sport.baseball	re fenway gif in article c jb d nt umassd edu acsddc smucs umassd edu writes i was wondering if anyone had any kind of fenway park gif i would appreciate it if someone could send me one thanks in advance dan me too and any yankee stadium gifs as well please thanx in advance mike feszczyszyn
rec.sport.baseball	re rbi s was notes on jays indians in article apr news acns nwu edu edo casbah acns nwu edu edward ouellette writes me too rbi are a worthless stat of course so is stolen bases because sometimes runners are in front of a player that would otherwise run and of course pitchers pitch differently with different people on different bases so batting average slugging and obp out too hmmm i guess homers would not count then either my point rbi might not be a perfect stat but nothing is and no stat or lack of can tell me there are no clutch hitters maybe no stat can tell me either but some people are i just know it but why would you want to use rbi rbi is an attempt to measure is some combination of clutch hitting and power hitting if you believe in clutch hitting then look at how the guy hit with risp if you want to see how good of a slugger he is then look at his slugging average in terms of evaluating players rbi totals are better than nothing but why use them when so many better stats are out there david frohardt lane dfl math wayne edu go tigers lions pistons red wings and wolverines
rec.sport.baseball	re mcrae is re torre the worst manager scott mccall com scott d davis writes kc news was doing a report on that they said that mcrae is really a batting coach and not a manager but for some reason he took the job whatever the reason the royals need a new manager now while it is too late and have jesse jackson picket the stadium tim evans e i du pont de nemours co tkevans eplrx es dupont com experimental station p o box evanstk at a at esvax wilmington delaware
rec.sport.baseball	re royals randall informix com randall rhea writes the royals are darkness they are the void of our time when they play shame descends upon the land like a cold front from canada they are a humiliation to all who have lived and all who shall ever live they are utterly and completely doomed other than that i guess they re ok you must not be old enough to remember the a s in kc tim evans e i du pont de nemours co tkevans eplrx es dupont com experimental station p o box evanstk at a at esvax wilmington delaware
rec.sport.baseball	al stats i am looking for a source of american league baseball stats for individual players in the same format as printed in newspapers ie i do not want to provide a list of players and get back nice printed reports for a week does anyone know of such statistics availability and an idea of the cost canada remote systems toronto ontario
rec.sport.baseball	re proposed catcher re sub rule the red sox usually have catchers i don t think they have a backup now but they used to use randy kutcher as a backup catcher as well as a middle infielder and outfielder you don t need a good rd catcher just a competent one so you can afford to lose a little catching ability and pick a player who can be of use elsewhere on the field john carr jfc athena mit edu
rec.sport.baseball	re millitello update in article apr alleg edu millits yankee org sam millitello says uhhhh i think i spelled my name correctly sam millitello uhhhh there are only three l s bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	re yankees win home opener in article apr alleg edu millits yankee org sam millitello says i m telling you sam three l s call up mom and ask bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	re phillies sweep reds awful reds report in article c ialu jn usenet ucs indiana edu rstimets silver ucs indiana edu robert and stimets writes actually i m not sure that philly won but they were ahead in the bottom of the eighth i was going to post the box score but since cinci was playing so criminally bad the pub i was at had to turn the game off so here s what s up cincinnati had seven hits all singles by the end of the eighth this makes it six games with exactly one extra base hit cincinnati was with runners in scoring position now if a team is going to be completely without power they absolutely have to hit in clutch situations cincinnati starter tom browning pitched innings giving up runs and h its while striking out he was surely the loser tonight reds starters while supposedly solid have won only one game this year of course the reds have only won two clean up batter sabo went besides yesterday s homer he s sucked at the plate dibble may not actually return friday this may not mean anything since cinci may not find themselves in a save situation for a while speaking of which the reds have ha exactly one lead this week for one and a half innings after chris dinger on tuesday manager tony perez says the reds are just not swinging the bat well right now good call doggie well there s a big difference between just not swinging the bat well and what the reds are doing at the plate uuuggghhhh a reds fan on the verge of a nervous breakdown mike why is it that the prognosis on kevin mitchell is out days no matter what day you read it gary burbank i ve told you before and i ll tell you again the strong survive and the weak disappear we do not intend to disappear jimmy hoffa mtissand magnus acs ohio state edu cynically yours rstimets
rec.sport.baseball	re wfan i hope that this comes off as a somewhat unbiased assesment of wfan and wip i go to school in philadelphia and i listen to both stations on a consistant basis now that the fan has mike lupica on from to noon they have a person who can get the big name guests for interviews and not just of local importance he did have dave cheketts and fred wilpon on his show but he had bob costas and magic johnson on too now here are my opinions of the two stations competing talent morning show in my opinion i think imus is much better than bruno cataldi and morganti even though i would feel different if morganti had a better crew of people to work with to me wip tries to copy imus but make it all sports as a theme in terms of sports imus lacks the blanketing of the airwaves but he interjects humor and politics into his show am to noon i think chuck cooperstein and lupica are equal in their abilities to host a radio show but i think chuck has the advantage over lupica in terms of dealing with the caller who is asking about who the local team is going to draft in the sixth round lupica and the other hosts on fan get better interview guests but i heard the pd of wip say that they were not interested in interviews with celebrities unless it was a major story i would consider this even because they are two different styles of host noon to pm at this point i would have to give a big advantage to jody mcdonald over len berman because lenny has only been on for a couple of weeks i just think jm has the ability to transcend the homer mentality of the philadelphia fan base this is most evident when the iggles philadelphia spelling play the cowboys because jm is a huge dallas fan where else can you have people call up and predict a score without the egging of the hosts re wip morning guys i do agree that jm was great on the fan weekend overnight and i miss hearing him over the current crop of rotating hosts i feel that jm is the best sportstalk host on either station by a good margin if you are in ny and you can t get wip jm does fill in on the weekends sometimes pm to pm this is the time when jm goes up against francesa and russo fatso and froot loops and i become the most divided in my loyalties mike and the dog are very entertaining but they often go an hour or so without calls or even to minutes without talking about sports matd do get great guests and that is the basis for their show so it is like the to debate another plus is the appearances by mike and chris on imus in the morning which are often hilarious pm to pm matd go up against fredericks and missanelli i like mike missanelli but i just can t stomach steve fredericks i know that sf came from philly originally but when he was at the fan he was a ny homer as much as he is a philly homer now i don t listen to wip much after pm unless there is a game on that night but you will see later for the reason that is why i give the advantage to fan pm to midnight s m are on wip until and then it is the man who makes eli that calls matd all the time seem like a novice on charges of racism g cobb this man is so grating on my nerves that if i listen to him for a few minutes i go nuts i know that is biased but listen to his show on fan there is usually a game on knicks rangers mets jets or st john s basketball if the game is on the west coast then it is usually howie rose of course i think dead air would be better than g cobb on wip but wip does air sixers and flyers games during the season if this is the sports station why did they lose the iggles to wysp home of howard stern in phil during the summer it is all talk on wip overall i would have to give the advantage to wfan with the exception of to and to where it is even and to where wip has the advantage rich you ve read the hat now see the movie imus in the morning a blurb you re a blurb seinfeld
rec.sport.baseball	question about candlestick i have tickets for the tb giants and i was wondering if anybody familiar with the stadium could tell me where section in the lower level is located please e mail the response thanks rich you ve read the hat now see the movie imus in the morning a blurb you re a blurb seinfeld
rec.sport.baseball	re astros for real in article apr ccsvax sfasu edu z millerwl ccsvax sfasu edu writes who thinks the astros are going places they re currently first place they re on the road i agree lumberjack except that they re in nd they are going places san diego los angeles san francisco cincinnati denver atlanta miami philadelphia new york montreal pittsburgh chicago st louis and points in between but they re at home i m just not used to an overly enthusiastic houston fan i really shouldn t discourage it so hang in there lumberjack but get ahold of that shift key will ya obbase apparently the new owner drayton mclain sp doesn t particularly like excuses an item in our paper the austin american statesman if you read it here it was somewhere else first said that he wouldn t take injuries as an excuse for losing because that possibility should have been accounted for uh oh i don t want an owner that ll keep everybody on edge i d never gotten that feeling about him but who knows does anybody down there in the houston area have a feel for how meddling of an owner mclain is going to be marc stephenson ibm aws advanced workstations systems austin tx disclaimer the content of this posting is independent of official ibm position internet marc austin ibm com vnet marc at ausvmq ibm t l
rec.sport.baseball	re defensive averages third base dale stephenson steph cs uiuc edu wrote in c jjrj em cs uiuc edu steph cs uiuc edu dale stephenson writes compiled from the last five defensive average reports here are the career das for the individual players in the reports stats are courtesy of sherri nichols players are listed in descending order and some comments with some players deleted third basemen leius scott looks good too bad he s moving to short pagliarulo mike this is an interesting line his figure was slightly below average his was pathetic and his was the next best year by anybody part of that may be his mobility was with the yankees was with the padres who appear to have a rotten infield was with the twins and judging by leius and gaetti the metrodome may be a good place to play third gaetti gary apologies if i don t know what i m talking about but as a twins fan i like to think they have good players in any park not sure if i remember completely or not but i think gaetti played with the twins in for the world series and again in note that s his lowest of the i believe the next or at least the last two were played with the angels lots of factors make a player excell i hate it when so many use the dome it may not be ideal but nice to comfortably enjoy baseball and football even when it s snowing and raining craig i m sure the company for which i work does not have all the same opinions that i do
rec.sport.baseball	re phils nl east not so weak in apr guvax acc georgetown edu apanjabi guvax acc georgetown edu writes i love it how all of these people are blaming the phillies success on a weak division why don t we look at the record of the teams in each division read inter divisional play we ll see that the east is really kicking the shit out of the west i know it is early but that is all we have to go on atlanta is just so strong with their ba cincinnati is coming off a sweep at veteran s stadium in philadelphia and houston was swept in it s first three games by the phillies in the astrodome that my western division friends shows that the three best teams in your division may not be as strong as you think or you may be posting this way too early and be eating your words by mid season c mon the phillies haven t proved anything yet atlanta was similar to the phils years ago they sucked they started having a good year but didn t get any respect until they actually won the division which is how it should be so until the phils at least have a good year not just a good weeks they won t get any respect either btw atlanta s ba is actually a compliment to how good the braves really are their record is can you imagine the phils record if they were batting hahahaha and atlanta s hitting will improve dramatically no i m not a braves fan just defending a good team orin bradley u phils all the way in braves hit like a aaa club reds need marge bob i m really a jester in disguise
rec.sport.baseball	re red sox lead after in article c zra n ulowell ulowell edu stwombly cs ulowell edu steve twombly writes the boston red sox lead the kc royals after innings the sox are the only undefeated team in the al east after days go jump in the lake you non believers steve as i have read this net the last few days i am continually amazed at the pronouncements of baseball prowess by many individuals especially when it comes down to saying that the bosox haven t a prayer as a long time red sox fan i will simply say the impossible dream year for those of you with short memories short lives or both to be a red sox fan is to continually be the subject of abuse and criticism from those who only follow the hot team this statement is supported based on the increased number of brave woofers out on the net a true fan of a team any team will follow that team through the good years as well as the lean years and be amply rewarded when the time is right yeah so what if buckner let a roller go through his legs in who cares if clemens told cooley to go piss up a rope and promptly earned a quick shower the fact is they were one of the best teams in the league those years and the fans supported them now that it appears that they are on lean times the number of detracters come from all over so what let them play and we will see what happens come september the red sox may not be that good but they are certainly not that bad either and they do have a chance to win the world series after all remember the mets who would have given them a chance to even make it that far let alone beat baltimore let s face it baseball is a wonderful game and is far more unpredictable than football and basketball because of this one can never say with absolute certainity what the outcome will be over the course of games joec godot cyprs rain com warning elvis impersonating can be hazardous joec ursula ee pdx edu to your health it sure won t help your reputation i bike therefore i am go red sox go celtics go seahawks go sonics
rec.sport.baseball	rbi risp and slg off and on over the last several months threads about rbis and related topics have gotten me to thinking about how well we can predict a player s rbis using information about his overall performance and the number of runners in scoring position risp that he bats with in the brock model bill james calculated predicted rbis as rbi total bases home runs this completely ignores the context which was all that brock could do since context was unknown to it so i thought i d take that idea as a starting point and look how good a fit to the data you get by comparing rbi home runs to slg risp i ve started with team data using data from the elias s that i ve picked up over the years when a i could afford them and b i could stomach the thought of increasing elias s profits that gave me the years and i don t have team rbis for or i could add that year if you run a simple least squares fit to the data you get rbi home runs slg risp the correlation between the lhs and the rhs is which is significant at a ridiculously high level so i feel like the fit is good at the team level i ve no started to move on to the player level and have looked at players will clark ozzie smith joe carter and don mattingly i hope to add quite a few more during my copious free time this year it doesn t do too badly except the equation underpredicts the low hr hitter smith which may be a fault of the model or it could just be ozzie the results rbi hr years actual predicted carter clark matt ly smith i think we can make a case and i hope to make it stronger that rbis can be predicted simply from knowing how a player slugs overall and how many men are in scoring position when he comes up more later harold harold brooks hbrooks uiatma atmos uiuc edu national severe storms laboratory norman ok i used to work for a brewery too but i didn t drink on the job p bavasi on dal maxvill s view that florida can win the nl east in
rec.sport.baseball	re dave kingman for the hall of fame in article mssc k w gqe netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes i m no kingman fan just thought i d point out that he s the only player in history to have five three hr games joe carter has four eddie murray three mccovey and gehrig also three ruth mays foxx and dawson two each didn t mike schmidt also do this at least three times i can remember twice in wrigley field alone he did it the same day kong did it in a shootout and he swatted four there one day in april the month he set the april record with hr s anybody remember any of this i was just a kid
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players i think you can add former a s first baseman mike epstein no relation to the list ari
rec.sport.baseball	mlb standings and scores for fri apr th mlb standings and scores for friday april th including yesterday s games national west won lost pct gb last streak home road san francisco giants won houston astros lost atlanta braves lost colorado rockies won los angeles dodgers lost san diego padres lost cincinnati reds lost national east philadelphia phillies won pittsburgh pirates won st louis cardinals won new york mets lost chicago cubs won montreal expos won florida marlins won american west won lost pct gb last streak home road texas rangers lost california angels won chicago white sox won minnesota twins lost oakland athletics lost seattle mariners lost kansas city royals won american east boston red sox won toronto blue jays won new york yankees lost detroit tigers won cleveland indians lost milwaukee brewers lost baltimore orioles won yesterday s scores idle teams listed in alphabetical order national league american league houston astros seattle mariners montreal expos toronto blue jays new york mets oakland athletics colorado rockies detroit tigers pittsburgh pirates kansas city royals san diego padres new york yankees st louis cardinals cleveland indians los angeles dodgers boston red sox atlanta braves california angels ppd san francisco giants milwaukee brewers rain chicago cubs idle baltimore orioles idle cincinnati reds idle chicago white sox idle florida marlins idle minnesota twins idle philadelphia philliesidle texas rangers idle joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers
rec.sport.baseball	cards sweep la mets lose life is good just a few lines about my favorite team sweeping the dodgers one of my least favorite in la sweet also the mets my other least favorite team loss to the rockies made this this a great day and a great start to the weekend as the cardinals are on the espn tonight big lee smith is having a great start and the cardinals seem to be hitting in the clutch even though they have had a few games with lots of hits and not many runs hopefully with the coaches stress on situational hitting in spring training the runners lob will be lower this year probably due to the high strikeout numbers by jose and lankford and zeile s off year i don t know why all the fuss about the fillies the media and all the filly fans on r s b forget who is right behind them in the standings give the wild thing a week or two before he starts blowing some games and we ll see who is in first then i believe the cardinal pitching staff is more complete than the filly staff and that will make the difference on a side note a few years ago a comment was made by some baseball player or manager about the dodger defense he was asked where to hit the ball against the dodgers and he replied fair i remember it being in the they said it section of sports illustrated i would like to know who said it and what issue it was in go redbirds gary wieman
rec.sport.baseball	re tiger stadium gif i hate to be rude but screw the seating chart post the stadium instead the logistician reigns supreme go blue go tigers go pistons go lions go red wings ching wpi wpi edu
rec.sport.baseball	re notes on jays vs indians series in article apr midway uchicago edu thf midway uchicago edu writes in article rudyc fxc deu netcom com rudy netcom com rudy wade writes in article apr csd newshost stanford edu nlu xenon stanford edu nelson lu writes guess which line is which ba obp slg ab h b b hr bb x y the walks should give it away obp s in general somewhat more valuable than slugging and alomar s edge in obp was quite a bit larger than baerga s edge in slugging i m no sdcn but what s more valuable hits w more doubles more hrs or more triples and bbs let s not forget the extra sbs how many cs alomar had cs baerga had don t forget the more outs baerga had his gidp balances out his cs and he had one more sacrifice than alomar a replacement level second baseman could have had hits walks and a couple of xbh for the additional outs baerga had a triple is little different than a home run we re talking exchanging almost walks for six or seven home runs and four doubles i would say the almost walks are more valuable also alomar got a far greater boost from his home park than baerga did from his and six or seven home runs hmm so if you wanted to pick a second baseman to play in toronto you d take alomar anywhere else and you d probably take baerga mike disclaimer these opiini h h damn h h q w q wq wq d x exit x q c quitbye ctrlaltdel q q logout save quit quit zz zzzzzz vi man vi l c e x i t help helpquit d d man help c c e help exit quit q ctrlshftdel hey what does stop l a d
rec.sport.baseball	re mlb standings and scores for fri apr th in article qmj h m h agate berkeley edu jtchern ocf berkeley edu joseph hernandez writes houston astros seattle mariners montreal expos toronto blue jays new york mets oakland athletics colorado rockies detroit tigers pittsburgh pirates kansas city royals san diego padres new york yankees st louis cardinals cleveland indians los angeles dodgers boston red sox atlanta braves california angels ppd san francisco giants milwaukee brewers rain this leads me to believe that it s not really a rabbitball year and that we ve just had a rash of high scoring games i bet this one day s worth of games pulled everything back to close to average interesting because the other day all but three games had ten or more runs scored and yesterday no game had more than nine ted frank thf kimbark uchicago edu i m sorry the card says moops the u of c law school standard disclaimers
rec.sport.baseball	re young catchers in article qlnkninn sh aludra usc edu sheehan aludra usc edu joseph sheehan writes most of the points you made about lopez v berryhill olson have been made by others and realizing that lopez must be the second coming of frank thomas i have relented and praised the unmistakeable wisdom of his supporters nope they re baseball management possible the most short sighted collection of people in the nation do you not believe this goes on mark do you think frank thomas needed those three months in aaa in see this is essentially what everyone was doing comparing lopez to one of the best players in the game i m really looking forward to seeing this can t miss superstar now as for thomas i remember being an advocate of his being brought up in even though he was only or can t remember but who did the sox have at first calderon martinez kittle the spot was there the talent was there sure i say go for it i am not convinced that lopez is anywhere near as talented as thomas was after his aa season in and i am not convinced that olson berryhill are nearly as bad as kittle martinez were btw i don t think thomas was hurt by those three months or cal eldred wasn t really better than ricky bones last year well if we can t compare our guy to one of the best in the game let s compare our decision to one of the most boneshead right cal eldred was when he came up with a full season at aaa and a longer minor league career frankly i don t know why he didn t make the club in bones is a year younger with a lousy prior history and just watching him makes me think that i missed a career as a big league pitcher no one i repeat no one laughed louder than i did at the sheffield trade though i guess mieske has a future i take it back mcilvaine may have laughed louder you re mostly polite make defensible if flawed cases have wit and have in the past admitted being wrong that does qualify you on r s b we ll make an sdcn out of you yet aw gee shucks thanks guy except i missed the part where sdcn s admit they re wrong the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	re early bbddd returns in article apr news cs brandeis edu st pip cc brandeis edu writes just curious if anyone has started to standout early in the season in the bb ddd this year the tater that jack morris served to griffey the younger in his first at bat this year went feet if i remember right i ll have to check my scorecard at home i think that s the longest so far in the kingdome through the first stand five games there a weak showing despite some promising taterball candidates ben mcdonald rich delucia and the rest of the mariner bullpen making appearances anyone have the tape measure value for omar vizquel s grand slam in the skydome jeff brown big enchilada of the brown bag lunches astronomy dept jbrown u washington edu u of washington jbrown phast phys washington edu
rec.sport.baseball	re tigers all i can say is g o t i g e r s the logistician reigns supreme go blue go tigers go pistons go lions go red wings ching wpi wpi edu
rec.sport.baseball	re notes on jays vs indians series in article c f rj bj ncoast org actuary ncoast org steven m goldman writes so who will start this year s all star game for the al probably alomar not to put him down he s a great player but it helps to have all the recognition he s had plus to play in a city which is likely to pour in the votes i like alomar but i d like to differ with your opinion about a city which is likely to pour in the votes i attended many games last year during the balloting i know that a great number of the attendees did not fill out their ballots but left them beer soaked and torn on the floor of the stands toronto gets no more and no less votes than any other city for the all star game unfortunately this is not a one time thing i ve attended games during the last four seasons and it has happened every time the apathetic attitude to all star ballots really offends me ljs
rec.sport.baseball	bonilla bobby bonilla supposedly use the word faggot when he got mad at that author in the clubhouse should he be banned from baseball for a year like schott
rec.sport.baseball	re torre the worst manager dak s vma smsu edu said no hal mcrae is the worst manager in baseball i ve never seen a guy who can waste talent like he can one of the best raw talent staffs in the league and he s still finding a way to lose i ll be surprised if he makes it through the next weeks unless drastic improvement is made i m confused how is it hal mcrae s fault that he can t win with a team whose best offensive player is phil hiatt i mean let s be real kansas city will have to get outstanding years from their entire staff just to end up near they have less offense than any other team in baseball even if you count the expansion teams david m tate dtate pitt edu greetings sir with bat not quick member iie orsa tims sabr hands not soft eye not discerning and in denver they call you a slugger the big catullus galarraga and compare you to my own mattingly
rec.sport.baseball	re braves pitching updatedir in article blue cis pitt edu traven pitt edu neal traven writes one of the chapters in palmer and thorn s hidden game is titled pitching is of baseball implying that fielding is how do they determine that beats me it s been a long long time since i read it this was my opinion the stupidest thing in the hidden game the argument was defense or runs allowed is of the game unearned runs amount to of the runs allowed earned runs since unearned runs are the result of fielding not pitching and earned runs are the product of pitching not fielding fielding is of defense and pitching is of defense caombining with pitching is of the game fielding pete is usually sharper than that my own feel is that fielding is in the of defense range call it between fielding and pitching one also has to separate offense into batting and baserunning with the split probably somewhere around and i d give baserunning a little more credit than that maybe or even give a team of roberto alomar and a team of john oleruds identical batting stats which wouldn t be that unreasonable and even if you don t let roberto steal a single base they ll score a lot more than the oleruds by going first to third more often no offense gordon clay d
rec.sport.baseball	re best homeruns i d have to say the most impressive hrs i ve ever see came from dave kingman and his infamous moon raker drives don boell
rec.sport.baseball	re best sportwriters in article c k nk tv news cso uiuc edu rkoffler ux cso uiuc edu bighelmet writes csc imd cabell vcu edu ian m derby writes since someone brought up sports radio howabout sportswriting i happen to be a big fan of jayson stark he is a baseball writer for the philadelphia inquirer every tuesday he writes a week in review column he writes about unusual situations that occured during the week unusual stats he has a section called kinerisms of the week which are stupid lines by mets brodcaster ralph kiner every year he has the lgtgah contest that stands for last guy to get a hit he also writes for baseball america that column is sort of a highlights of week in review if you can check his column out sometime he might make you laugh rob koffler isn t stark that idiot who writes in baseball america twice a month he writes a who woulda thunk it article which is really the same piece every time who would have thought that buddy biancalana would have more home runs than the colorado rockies babe ruth omar vizquel and nolan ryan combined he s an idiot if it s the same guy you live day to day and rkoffler ux cso uiuc edu dream about tomorrow don henley andrew
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players in article apr lafibm lafayette edu vb lafibm lafayette edu vb writes just wondering a friend and i were talking the other day and we were for some reason trying to come up with names of jewish maybe john lowenstein lowenstein is not jewish however there is a long list including hank greenberg moe berg rod carew a convert the sherry brothers art shamsky and ron blomberg barry
rec.sport.baseball	re phills vs pirates as a philly fan as as a penna baseball fan i m anxious to see the penna series anyone know when it starts and where the first games will be played this is i think always good baseball to me and the pirates are also off to a good start ed doc
rec.sport.baseball	world series stats does anybody else think that ws stats should become part of a player s career stats why not
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players once on jeopardy the category was jewish sports heros believe it or not the answer was this pitcher had four no hitters with the dodgers in the s the contestant said who is hank aaron alex trebek said something like i don t think hank aaron was a pitcher david fry fry math harvard edu division of applied sciences fry huma bitnet harvard university harvard huma fry cambridge ma
rec.sport.baseball	ind source picks baerga over alomar case closed fester island com mike fester writes i d say you could make a good for them being about equal right now t p rated baerga higher actually mike finally an objective source alomar s a great player but so is baerga nice to see the objective source cited rather than my dad s bigger than your dad posts bk
rec.sport.baseball	re best homeruns on two separate occasions i saw dick allen back when he was richie homer at shea off the middle of the black centerfield hitter s background screen i think both shots would have traveled feet jay
rec.sport.baseball	re why spanky boone psc edu jon boone writes on mon apr gmt in apr mnemosyne cs du edu greg spira gspira nyx cs du edu wrote does anybody in the pittsburgh area know why mike lavalliere was released last year i kept saying that slaught should get the bulk of the playing time that he was clearly the better player at this point but leyland insisted on keeping a pretty strict platoon and now he is released that doesn t make any sense to me greg the story goes like this spanky is too slow if he were quicker he would still be here but with slaught and tom prince they didn t want to lose prince in order to bring up that th pitcher slaught is about as good as spanky and prince is coming along nicely well my question still hasn t been answered if spanky was bad enough to release this year why did he get so much playing time last year yes i know he was part of a platoon and that s why he got more playing time than slaught but that doesn t answer the question if slaught was so obviously better this year wasn t this also obvious last year and shouldn t he have been taking away some of spanky s playing time against righties greg
rec.sport.baseball	when is melido due back when are the yankees planning on activating melido perez his days on the dl are up today but are they bringing him back this weekend thanks for any info
rec.sport.baseball	re best homeruns in article hpcc corp hp com boell hpcc corp hp com donald p boell writes i d have to say the most impressive hrs i ve ever see came from dave kingman and his infamous moon raker drives i remember one he hit circa at wrigley field that went across the street in dead center field and hit a house on the roof he whiffed a lot but when he did connect watch out include std disclaimer h dan s
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players in article mssc k z fur netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes polish and jewish are not mutually exclusive i didn t mean to offend or anything i m just quoting stanky himself on the subject i remember one time last year he was being interviewed by espn and the interviewer can t remember who asked stanky if he was jewish because he the interviewer was jewish and wanted to see more jewish ballplayers to which stanky replied i m polish not jewish so maybe that wasn t the most pc thing for stanky to say and maybe i was a little naive when i posted it i think we should just devote this subject to finding actual jewish ballplayers i myself am jewish and the only ones i ever knew until now were koufax greenberg and blomberg alan
rec.sport.baseball	re infield fly rule jrogoff scott skidmore edu jay rogoff writes one last infield fly question that has always puzzled me and hasn t yet been addressed i believe the rule also does not deal with this situation however if the infield fly is not caught at what point can a runner legally leave his base w o fear of being doubled off for advancing too early the runner can leave his base at any time if the ball is caught he s got to tag up if it isn t caught he doesn t have to tag up at all so if he s feeling lucky your runner at second can sprint for glory as soon as the ball is popped up if it isn t caught he s probably scored a run if it is he s probably headed for aaa the only effect the infield fly has is to make the batter out thereby removing the force on the runners on base all other rules apply as if you were standing second with first open and the ball is popped up tim shippert shippert cco caltech edu if we are going to stick to this damned quantum jumping then i regret that i ever had anything to do with quantum theory e schrodinger
rec.sport.baseball	alomar vs baerga i was hoping to stay out of this lyford frosty beverage writes uh yes baerga has a lot of flash but alomar was the better hitter last year batters ba slg obp g ab r h tb b b hr rbi bb so sb cs e baerga c alomar r this is fascinating you say that alomar was the better hitter last year and immediately follow that up with numbers showing that baerga had a better year the only category that i see which shows an advantage for alomar is obp well obp is the most important offensive statistic and by a big margin points of obp is worth considerably more than points of slugging that being said i still think baerga was very slightly better last year but i think this is as close to a wash as you re likely to find i personally don t care much for alomar s defense i don t think he s nearly as good as people make him out to be and he can t turn the dp to save his life he comes across the bag improperly and his release is slow considering the high leverage of the dp this is a shortcoming i can t overlook in the long term i d move alomar to another position if the jays could trade a hot devon white for something i ll be alomar could be a hell of a cf in the long run i think i d rather have jeff kent at b and alomar in cf than alomar white gary huckabay you think that s loud enough a hole movie rights well if you re having trouble hearing it sir available thru i d be happy to turn it up for you i didn t ted frank know that many people your age liked king s x
rec.sport.baseball	re darrrrrrrrryl in article mssc kcru ip netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes the media is beating the incident at dodger stadium on wednesday to death but i haven t seen anything in rsb yet gerald perry of the cardinals pinch hit in the eighth inning with two on and his club down by a run he stroked a line drive into the right field corner the ball cleared the three foot high fence and went into the crowd darryl racing over from right center got to the spot in time to reach his glove up over the short fence but he missed the ball a fan sitting in the front row wearing a mitt reached up and caught the ball home run now i ve seen the replay several times and i have concluded that darryl missed the ball and that the fan s glove was essentially behind darryl s several dodger fans with seats in the immediate vicinity have claimed that the fan unquestionably interfered with strawberry what cannot be disputed however is that the fan who caught the ball never took his eye off it he was oblivious to where the fielder was playing he was also quite exuberant as soon as he realized he had made the catch stuff about daryl and tommy and everyone blaming fan for the loss deleted i saw the replay several times too no question about it daryl missed the ball then the fan caught it daryl is so tall that he had the first shot at the ball daryl s just whining again i think it shows a lack of class when tommy daryl and the dodgers blame a single fan for losing the game what about the pitcher who threw up the gopher ball what about the pitchers that gave up runs up to that point sorry tommy if it were a game and daryl was feet inches tall then maybe just maybe you d have an argument
rec.sport.baseball	bonds vs maddux i ve been following the giants closely over the off season newspapers notesgroup etc but i had my first up close and personal last night at the stick after watching giants hitters struggle last year barry s swing was very impressive he s very quick and his swing seems effortless even compared to clark particularly clark as of late it was interesting to see bonds hit maddux so well i m not sure if barry was after revenge against the braves or what but he stroked three very pretty hits b b hr for rbi s the giants as a team are doing a lot of surprising things this year in addition to bonds there has been some good pitching and some hitters seem to be swinging much better clayton s defense has been superb mcgee seems to like leading off this year manwaring is driving the ball so on so forth i hope it continues i think they need to continue well into june before people are really sold that they are for real particularly the pitching for myself i think the fresh start of magowan baker etc has really wiped out a lot of negatives from the last few years and will be a real factor in helping them significantly improve over last year joe loos loos cup hp com
rec.sport.baseball	yankee bullpen help buck showalter just can t win bob wickman s pitching the game of his life through eight innings yanks lead so buck decides to let the kid try and get his first complete game wickman manages to get two outs but in between four funs score and all of a sudden it s and wickman just can t get the third out so buck goes to the bullpen and farr gets out the first guy he faces last night jimmy key is pitching another in a long string of games of his life this guy just keeps getting better through eight innings yanks lead this time buck thinks i don t want a repeat of that near fiasco with wickman so i ll give my bullpen some work steve howe whose era was coming into the game left with it at he didn t do too good then farr comes in he gives up a two run homer and the royals win it what s going on this is already the third or fourth time this year that the bullpen has blown a lead farr howe have done it twice together monteleone s done it once and i think even habyan did it once what s the deal we finally have terrific starting pitching so all of a sudden our bullpen turns to shit what s buck gonna do and what s george gonna do if this continues to happen alan
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players bo bilinsky
rec.sport.baseball	re infield fly rule jrogoff scott skidmore edu jay rogoff writes one last infield fly question that has always puzzled me and hasn t yet been addressed i believe the rule also does not deal with this situation if infield fly is declared and the ball is caught runners can tag up and advance at their own risk as on any fly ball however if the infield fly is not caught at what point can a runner legally leave his base w o fear of being doubled off for advancing too early when the ball hits the ground when a fielder first touches the ball after it hits the ground enlightenment would be appreciated i m not sure i understand this question when the if rule is invoked the batter is automatically out this relieves the runners from being forced to advance to the next base if the ball is not caught other than that isn t it just the same as any situation in which a runner on a base is not forced to the next base on a dropped fly ball that is if the ball is caught he can tag up and run or decide to stay and if the ball is dropped he can have left the base at any time eric smith erics netcom com erics infoserv com ci
rec.sport.baseball	re astros are back in article apr rosie uh edu st rp rosie uh edu schwam david s writes in article c hhwv cvk austin ibm com marc yogi austin ibm com marc j stephenson writes astros relief corps holding together if doug jones keeps his changeup effective and xavier hernandez can be effective then it s passable there s no reasonable left handed help and the middle relief is iffy tom edens was expected to take over the joe boever setup man role but he s been injured and he was an expansion team acquisition anyway houston thought that boever would demand too much money so they let him go doug jones can lose his touch he went from cleveland s all star closer to the minors in a pretty short span from what i understand boever and murphy were considered expendable by the club houston felt that their positions could be filled by a number of players art doug jones is the key to houston s success he must have another great year for houston to challenge in the nl west no argument at all with murphy he scared the hell out of me when he came in last year on the other hand the club though enough of boever to put him into an awful lot of games he may have led the league in appearances he did at least at some point he seemed to be a very viable setup guy but i guess that s not considered that crucial by the club i can just remember two years ago so well though the unsuspected strength of the lower part of the order has saved the club so far biggio and finley just aren t doing their job of getting on base instead of filling his role as an rbi man bagwell has had to assume biggio and finley s job biggio concerns me since he usually starts the season very strong i m not that concerned those guys have been relatively consistent over the years and they have no good reasons to decline no injuries not old i expect them to come through just fine it s those guys that have not been consistently good that are the worrisome part even if they are coming through right now on a side note are you at all concerned with the rumors concerning next year s uniform there is talk that their road uniform will be blech traditional grey with the word houston written across the chest if i m not mistaken their home uniforms may totally eliminate the color orange shiver mclane s favorite color is red so this sounds like their old road unis pretty dull buttons or pullovers i ll check through my uniform book to see if they ve always had some orange i m really upset the current unforms are dull and the new ones sound horrible i d like to see the uniform of the mid s return they may not have been pretty but houston had established a long precident of wearing the ugliest uniforms in baseball and i liked it well we ll see i ve got a astros pullover shirt with the astros stripes across the shoulders and i have trouble making myself wear it in public i can see why they might want that to change gee if they eliminate the orange will they reupholster the seats in the astros stripes section what used to be the gold and yellow levels i don t know those numbers they use now i saw a pinstripe version of an astros cap and i actually thought it looked good marc stephenson ibm aws advanced workstations systems austin tx disclaimer the content of this posting is independent of official ibm position internet marc austin ibm com vnet marc at ausvmq ibm t l
rec.sport.baseball	re players rushed to majors in article hydra gatech edu re prism gatech edu russell earnest writes in article apr holos uucp lbr holos uucp len reed writes in article c hq o g p tss com hanson tss com hanson loo writes didn t bob horner go straight from arizona state univ to the atlanta braves i remember he had one great month hitting dingers and then the next i heard he was in japan a month well he did have a short career compared to what one might have expected for such a highly touted prospect due to being injury prone overweight and having no work ethic but he certainly did not suffer from being rushed to the bigs sorry len this is exactly how he suffered from being rushed to the bigs being overweight and having no work ethic leading to being injury prone with nothing to loose might have been corrected in richmond did you intend a smiley after your comment if i remember correctly which is always in doubt horner s signing with the braves was contingent on starting in atlanta i think he could have gone back to arizona st for one more year if he hadn t signed anyhow the braves did try to send him to richmond once it lead to a week long walkout methinks horner had no work ethic before he was drafted and minor league play wouldn t have helped but his raw talent would have gotten him into the ml and it did keep him there for a while until he started falling on his wrists eric too lazy to update his sig roush
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players al weiss played second for the white sox in the early sixties chiefly as back up to don buford good glove no hit some spunk which reminds me do they still serve kosher hot dogs at the new comiskey mark bernstein eastgate systems inc main street watertown ma usa voice in usa eastgate world std com compuserve applelink eastgate
rec.sport.baseball	jewish broadcasters was jewish baseball players for that matter how many gentleman of the press box have been jewish the only jewish sportscaster that comes to mind is steve williams who had a phillies show on kyw in philadelphia in the s mark bernstein eastgate systems inc main street watertown ma usa voice in usa eastgate world std com compuserve applelink eastgate
rec.sport.baseball	candlestick park experience long i ve been a giants season ticket holder for years and never really complained about the old ballyard place sure it s been cold the food lines were long and the hired hands were surly but this was all part of the giants mystique or so i thought i went to tuesday s game giants over the marlins and the stick was a much different place nothing short of a dome will eliminate the wind but everything is a lot better the lines are a lot shorter the bathrooms are clean and have running water and the hired hands were very polite the new foghorn lights up and blows after each homerun and the wooden fence are very nice as are the new bleachers the bleachers start right at the top of the fence and give a great view and they ve got beer stands at the bottome of the bleachers the only complaint is that the electronic old fashioned scoreboard looks electronic could be better these things should have been done a long time ago but it took a real businessman ex safeway president peter magowan to figure it out just like he used to tell his checkers if the customers don t come back i don t need as many checkers this isn t a knock on bob lurie he was a competent businessman but he didn t deal much with the general public i ll give an example of how the level of service has changed the onion dispenser jammed as i was using it an attendant came over apoligized for the problem and proceeded to fix the machine after he was done he cleaned the machine and said he was glad to be able to help in the old days there was no attendant and the folks at the concession stands would say go to the stand feet away they might be able to help all in all it was a fun day craig eid e mail address craige hpsad sad hp com
rec.sport.baseball	re when is melido due back in article nittmo camelot nittmo camelot bradley edu christopher taylor writes when are the yankees planning on activating melido perez his days on the dl are up today but are they bringing him back this weekend thanks for any info the chicago tribune pitching form has perez pitching today but given the way that buck changes his rotation so often that could just be the work of a confused stat page editor adam as midway uchicago edu aka mercutio obligatory go yankees for baseball season s woodlawn ave apt chicago il
rec.sport.baseball	kansas city e mail contact would the person who is running the e mail list for kansas city royals please e mail details regarding mailing list if you on the list and know the info please send me info as well please e mail as i don t have time always to read this group john john carson mindlink bc ca d john carson j h concepts
rec.sport.baseball	re ind source picks baerga over alomar case closed in article c l dn ub andy bgsu edu klopfens andy bgsu edu bruce klopfenstein writes fester island com mike fester writes i d say you could make a good for them being about equal right now t p rated baerga higher actually finally an objective source alomar s a great player but so is baerga nice to see the objective source cited rather than my dad s bigger than your dad posts i know you have this fucked up idea that anybody who prefers alomar to baerga must be a jay lover and indian hater sorry you got that one wrong i hate the jays and don t care one way or the other about the indians but objectively alomar had the better offensive year last year so i have to pick him you admit t p as a reliable objective source then you will note that they rated alomar as the better offensive player chosing baerga over alomar only because of his defense that s a joke alomar might not be a gold glover but he s certainly no worse than baerga defensively valentine
rec.sport.baseball	re defensive averages third base in article c l v srgenprp sr hp com craigs srgenprp sr hp com craig stelter writes gaetti gary apologies if i don t know what i m talking about but as a twins fan i like to think they have good players in any park not sure if i remember completely or not but i think gaetti played with the twins in for the world series and again in note that s his lowest of the i believe the next or at least the last two were played with the angels lots of factors make a player excell i hate it when so many use the dome it may not be ideal but nice to comfortably enjoy baseball and football even when it s snowing and raining craig i m sure the company for which i work does not have all the same opinions that i do the event that had the most impact on gaetti s career was his leg injury in his performance dropped radically from to he was still with the twins in and but if you look at his stats both offensive and defensive he never has come back to his pre injury level brendan
rec.sport.baseball	re best homeruns i haven t been following the previous hr s but there are two that i saw live that would have to be up there up where there rick monday s hr to bury the expos in the nl championship in it was hit off steve rogers who is a rhp and primarily a starter why was he used as a reliever when the spos had reardon and billlee warming up in the bullpen considering monday couldn t touch lhp lee would have been a safe bet he wasn t even doing any drugs at that time or so he told me and around others on a recent venture into montreal the blast wasn t the important aspect it was the timing seventh game a tie game and in the top of the th the expos almost came back though mike schmidt hit one that killed the expos in so close yet so far and strawberry killed a pitch on the second day of the season a couple of years ago it went off the technical ring in the big o it almost left the stadium that was hit hard corelmark
rec.sport.baseball	re nl vs al in article c dxqp hoo news rich bnr ca bratt crchh a nosubdomain nodomain john bratt writes how about game length i don t know if this is a valid statement or not but al games sure seem to last a lot longer make sure to take the sutcliff fisk ect factor into account russ anderson disclaimer any statements are my own and do not reflect upon my employer or anyone else c ex twins jack morris innings pitched runs world series mvp
rec.sport.baseball	re defensive averages third base in c l v srgenprp sr hp com craigs srgenprp sr hp com craig stelter writes dale stephenson steph cs uiuc edu wrote in c jjrj em cs uiuc edu steph cs uiuc edu dale stephenson writes compiled from the last five defensive average reports here are the career das for the individual players in the reports stats are courtesy of sherri nichols players are listed in descending order and some comments with some players deleted third basemen leius scott looks good too bad he s moving to short pagliarulo mike this is an interesting line his figure was slightly below average his was pathetic and his was the next best year by anybody part of that may be his mobility was with the yankees was with the padres who appear to have a rotten infield was with the twins and judging by leius and gaetti the metrodome may be a good place to play third gaetti gary apologies if i don t know what i m talking about but as a twins fan i like to think they have good players in any park not sure if i remember completely or not but i think gaetti played with the twins in for the world series and again in note that s his lowest of the i believe the next or at least the last two were played with the angels actually gaetti s first year with california was his da wasn t out of line with his career averages and his was actually below average in but check out the last three years at the metrodome gaetti al avg pags leius al avg leius al avg for the last three years the highest das in either league have been posted by minnesota players three different ones including one pags who was mediocre to horrible elsewhere that doesn t prove a park effect is at work any more than san diego s horrible infield numbers prove a park effect is at work but it looks like a strong possibility to me lots of factors make a player excell i hate it when so many use the dome it may not be ideal but nice to comfortably enjoy baseball and football even when it s snowing and raining and it might even be a nice play to thrid base dale j stephenson steph cs uiuc edu baseball fanatic it is considered good to look wise especially when not overburdened with information j golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	re phills vs pirates in article apr vfl paramax com edd gvlf a gvl unisys com ed dougherty writes as a philly fan as as a penna baseball fan i m anxious to see the penna series anyone know when it starts and where the first games will be played this is i think always good baseball to me and the pirates are also off to a good start ed doc when is it did you say well let me shell out here and run this handy dandy program mlb m pit phi and the answer is monday pittsburg at philadelphia pm tuesday pittsburg at philadelphia pm wednesday pittsburg at philadelphia pm friday philadelphia at pittsburg pm saturday philadelphia at pittsburg pm sunday philadelphia at pittsburg am friday pittsburg at philadelphia pm saturday pittsburg at philadelphia pm sunday pittsburg at philadelphia am monday philadelphia at pittsburg pm tuesday philadelphia at pittsburg pm wednesday philadelphia at pittsburg pm thursday philadelphia at pittsburg pm this is a great little program its available at an ftp site near you unfortunatly i don t recall which one any schedule question you got is answered with this little gem many thanks to the author for providing this service
rec.sport.baseball	re astros for real in article c ky kd austin ibm com marc yogi austin ibm com marc j stephenson writes in article apr ccsvax sfasu edu z millerwl ccsvax sfasu edu writes who thinks the astros are going places they re currently first place they re on the road i agree lumberjack except that they re in nd they are going places san diego los angeles san francisco cincinnati denver atlanta miami philadelphia new york montreal pittsburgh chicago st louis and points in between but they re at home but they faced the phillies a team that got off to an start i m just not used to an overly enthusiastic houston fan i really shouldn t discourage it so hang in there lumberjack but get ahold of that shift key will ya obbase apparently the new owner drayton mclain sp doesn t particularly like excuses an item in our paper the austin american statesman if you read it here it was somewhere else first said that he wouldn t take injuries as an excuse for losing because that possibility should have been accounted for uh oh i don t want an owner that ll keep everybody on edge i d never gotten that feeling about him but who knows does to be honest i think the city of houston loves the new owner he has brought baseball back to houston with key acquisitions players that were from the houston area and wanted to play for the astros i don t think that too many people are fearful that mclane will meddle in the team as he has already admitted that he doesn t know a whole lot about baseball mclane is a businessman and doesn t like excuses he makes a valid point that injuries shouldn t be an excuse to this club look at the depth of the bench this season canadele can play positions bass and james are solid outfielders and can hit well too uribe is nice to have as well the pitching staff has legitimate starters we re dealing with a young houston team so injuries shouldn t play a big role the only threat is the bullpen if jonesy goes out we may be in trouble but with the type of starters we have this season there is less pressure on the pen david s schwam university of houston st rp jetson uh edu
rec.sport.baseball	re best homeruns dswartz osf org dan swartzendruber writes in article hpcc corp hp com boell hpcc corp hp com donald p boell writes i d have to say the most impressive hrs i ve ever see came from dave kingman and his infamous moon raker drives i remember one he hit circa at wrigley field that went across the street in dead center field and hit a house on the roof he whiffed a lot but when he did connect watch out my favorite was the barry foote homer that bounced on waveland and through a second floor window across the street second though would be the kong drive that was last seen bouncing down the street that dead ends to the park at waveland mike timlin timlin spot colorado edu
rec.sport.baseball	re a surfeit of offense in article qi innphe jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo a iglesias writes in article apr cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu edward ted fischer writes last year the american league scored runs in games for a total of runs per game with hr game through tuesday the al has runs in games for a total of runs per game and a total of hr game in there were runs per game and hr game the big question how significant is this have we returned to or is this just a minor abberation some thoughts d i thought offense was generally down in april rising as the weather got warm and pitchers got tired this may be a bigger abberation from the norm than it seems i don t get a feeling that the weather has been an issue this year there doesn t seem to be a really cold spell in north america which does makes it harder to hit not to mention making the ball carry less you obviously did not watch the twins in chicago no cold spell it s been snowing most of the week in minnesota inches in duluth last weekend i would still put things under the too early to tell category yup russ anderson disclaimer any statements are my own and do not reflect upon my employer or anyone else c ex twins jack morris innings pitched runs world series mvp
rec.sport.baseball	dick estelle does anyone know if the dick estelle who does the radio reader on npr is one in the same with the lefty who pitched briefly for the jints in just curious paul spending too much time reading the baseball encyclopedia we will stretch no farm animal beyond its natural length paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen hewlett packard home nw mckinley corvallis or a sabr member since
rec.sport.baseball	re sparky anderson gets win tigers beat a s in article ragraca vela acs oakland edu ragraca vela acs oakland edu randy a graca writes tigers manager sparky anderson gets his th career win as moments ago the tigers completed a two game sweep over the oakland a s at tiger stadium by beating the a s here are the highlights r h e oakland detroit game description deleted in the post game interview on wjr radio in detroit sparky anderson said its one of the few times he s gotten emotional in his managing career it was a big moment for him and i m sure all of us tiger fans are unanimously very happy for him and what a way to get number woofing deleted randy in another post game interview larussa claimed that sparky was the best manager in basebal explaining that to be part of the history of sparky softened the blow of losing go tigers tim timothy law snyder department of computer science reiss georgetown university washington dc tim normal georgetown edu
rec.sport.baseball	re yankees win home opener in article rvesterm vma cc nd edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes in article apr alleg edu millits yankee org sam millitello says i m telling you sam three l s call up mom and ask bob vesterman yeah and in case even that isn t enough to prompt boy genius sam to pick up a paper and see how his name is spelled here s another hint the single l comes between the two i s charles
rec.sport.baseball	how is slugging percentage computed subject line says it all thanks in advance please email chuck cygnus eid anl gov go cubs
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players i believe that rusty staub was also a jewish ball player also mordaci brown back in the early th century he was a pitcher whose nickname was fingers brown for obvious reasons he had fingers
rec.sport.baseball	re braves pitching updatedir in article apr acad drake edu sbp acad drake edu writes not clear to me at all i d certainly rather have a team who was winning games than games in the game luck is going to play a much bigger role than in the game but you still need the pitching staff to hold the opposing team to one run not if you ve scored four runs you don t why strain even the best pitching staff why not make it easier for them in the game the best pitching staff in the world can t compensate for a blown call a bad hop a gust of wind winning close is the wrong way to win both keeping opposing runs down and scoring a lot yourself are insurance against the shit happens aspect of baseball not every great teamhas even good pitching the big red machine of the s was league average in pitching but somehow rose morgan bench perez etc managed to win games more than once peaking at roger
rec.sport.baseball	re all time best players in article apr aplcen apl jhu edu jmhodapp aplcomm jhuapl edu writes in article apr princeton edu roger crux princeton edu roger lustig writes in article apr bsu ucs mbstultz leo bsuvc bsu edu writes i ve recently been working on project to determine the greatest players at their respective postions b career what about u johnny hodapp the greatest nd baseman in cleveland indians history hits in consistantly over a great great second baseman um the header said career hodapp managed about pa in his nine years in the majors as for his consistently over make that three years in a row preceded by a part time year plus his last year with boston hodapp only qualified for the batting title five times was he injured he retired right around his th birthday anyway hodapp put up flashy numbers the year everybody put up flashy numbers that was his only really good year with a bat his other years were marred by a lack of power and an inability to draw walks only of those pa were bases on balls which does not describe a feared hitter on the other hand he was part of the long line of famous cleveland b wambsganss riggs stephenson etc roger jon johnny hodapp jmhodapp aplcomm jhuapl edu
rec.sport.baseball	re new home for the bosox in article apr scott skidmore edu jrogoff scott skidmore edu jay rogoff writes i agree though i d also be happy with a stadium that looks like new comiskey the new park was also made for baseball unlike three rivers the vet riverfront etc it s not a football park in which they also play baseball while we re on the multipurpose subject let s not forget shea which was designed to accommodate both the mets jets it was the first stadium i think to have the box seats on rollers so they could be oriented at right angles for baseball in parallel for football not the first rfk olim dc stadium was built years earlier nowadays they don t move the seats back for the few exhibition games but the rd base lf lower deck used to move it was all metal which was pretty noisy on bat day of course with the jets gone to jersey and a truly good football stadium the mets are saddled with a multipurpose stadium where because it s circular the seats are almost always too far from the action the mets announcers kiner murphy in particular have always hyped it as beautiful shea stadium a tipoff to how unbeautiful it truly is it s vastly better than it was before they fixed it though back in the late s it was a dump roger don t you like jet noise
rec.sport.baseball	re dave kingman for the hall of fame in article apr news yale edu steve tomassi writes hi baseball fans so what do you say don t you think he deserves it i mean heck if dave winfield ho hum is seriously being considered for it as is lee smith ha then why don t we give dave kingman a chance or darrell evans yeah yeah after the hall of fame takes in them it can take in eddie murray and jeff reardon um what eddie murray was a superb first baseman for a long time winfield as produced consistently for almsot years and excellently on several occasions dave kingman s best year was like darryl strawberry s typical year with the mets darrell evans too did a whole lot more than just hit homers which is all that kong did well in any case i am sick and tired mostly sick of everybody giving hall of fame consideration to players that are by today s standards marginal whom are you talking about yes eddie murray is marginal but that s because he s years old he wasn t marginal for a long time honestly ozzie smith and robin yount don t belong there they re both shortstops that just hung around for a long time big deal not smith has hung around for a long time and fielded the position better than anyone else ever has yount stopped being a shortstop about a decade ago in case you hadn t noticed one of his two mvp awards was as a centerfielder let s be a little more selective huh stop handing out these honors so liberally save them for the guys who really deserve it face it if like whom there are many players in the hall who aren t anywhere near as goos as the guys you re running down something isn t done there will be little prestige in the hall of fame anymore when that s already the case by some standards but the bad players in the hall are all from the s and s recent picks have generally been excellent certain individuals believe that steve garvey or jack morris are potential candidates the absurdity is apparent gee can these guys even compare to the more likely future hall of famers like kirby puckett or nolan ryan no but who cares was stan musial anywhere near as good as babe ruth not really but he obviously belongs there the hall has generally had about the top of major leaguers as more players come through the game more will be in that top and yes it s pretty easy to argue that smith yount evans winfield etc are in the top dave kingman on the other hand was a liability throughout most of his career of course garvey hasn t gotten a lot of hof press so i don t know what you mean as for ryan is his w l better than morris that s what a lot of voters tend to look at and morris was awfully good for a decade and doesn t lead mlb history in walks allowed either roger
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players in article apr lafibm lafayette edu vb lafibm lafayette edu vb writes just wondering a friend and i were talking the other day and we were for some reason trying to come up with names of jewish baseball players past and present we weren t able to come up with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and maybe john lowenstein can anyone come up with any more i know it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this but humor us thanks for your help stankiewicz i doubt it koufax was one of two jewish hofs the other is hank greenberg other good players buddy myer johnny kling norm and larry sherry ken holtzman saul rogovin ed reulbach there have been over jewish major leaguers a few years ago there was an article about someone who keeps track of this in spy magazine the article was entitled jews on first of course there have also been at least two books on the subject roger
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players in article apr midway uchicago edu thf midway uchicago edu writes in article qkkodinn f jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo a iglesias writes in article apr lafibm lafayette edu vb lafibm lafayette edu vb writes just wondering a friend and i were talking the other day and we were for some reason trying to come up with names of jewish baseball players past and present we weren t able to come up with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and maybe john lowenstein can anyone come up with any more i know it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this but humor us thanks for your help hank greenberg would have to be the most famous because his jewish faith actually affected his play missing late season or was it world series games because of yom kippur the other jewish hof er is rod carew who converted did he ever really convert he married a jewish woman but i ve never heard him say he converted elliot maddox on the other hand lowenstein is jewish as well as montana s only representative to the major leagues undeserving cy young award winner steve stone is jewish between stone koufax ken holtzman might have the wrong pitcher i m thinking of the one who threw a no hitter in both the al and nl and big ed reulbach that s quite a starting rotation moe berg can catch harry steinfeldt the b in the tinkers evers chance infield yep holtzman saul rogovin won an era title in or so before blowing out the arm is stanky jewish or is that just a dave cohen kinda misinterpretation whatever doesn t look like he stuck around the majors too long i d be surprised btw they may just be shopping gallego around to make room for as roger
rec.sport.baseball	re sandberg runs rbis was re notes on jays vs indians series in article c jqby m a news rich bnr ca bratt crchh a nosubdomain nodomain john bratt writes in article c jm m jw cs dal ca niguma ug cs dal ca gord niguma writes alomar fans left rbi fans and runs off this list because they are dependant on the team to a large extent if frank thomas hit first he d lose a lot of rbi s and anyways how many nd place hitters have you known to drive in runs doesn t happen that often very unlikely with devon white s obp in front of you i m pretty sure that sandberg has done this at least once i know someone will correct me if i m wrong rbis and runs scored are the two most important offensive statistics you can talk about obp and slg all you want but the fact remains the team that scores more runs wins the game right so who cares which player gets credited as long as the team gets more runs if a player helps the team get more r and rbi but doesn t score them all himself who cares consider player a single player b grounder to short reaches on the force at nd player c double b to rd player d sac fly b gets a run d gets an rbi are you sure they helped the team more than a and c think hard now flame away as you wish roger
rec.sport.baseball	re new home for the bosox mif psuvm psu edu writes i heard about a month back that the red sox are getting a new dome stadium i have relatives that just moved up that way and they said about the city releasing the funds can anybody verify this to a game bosox fan in pa i have lived in the boston area for years now they have been talking about a new boston garden hockey basketball since i ve lived here one day the last hurdle has been overcome and the next day there s a new hurdle fans have been grumbling about foxboro stadium or whatever it s called this year for nearly as long but there are only preliminary proposals for a new stadium local politics prevents anything from being done in a timely fashion there will not be a new ballpark in my lifetime max logan nashua nh
rec.sport.baseball	cubs mailing list is there anyone out there running a chicago national league ballclub list if so please send me information on it to andrew aardvark ucs uoknor edu thanks o chihuahua charlie ou is not responsible o o academic user services for anything anywhere o o the university of oklahoma except for that one o o andrew aardvark ucs uoknor edu incident where o o o
rec.sport.baseball	re darrrrrrrrryl mark singer brings up the strawberry incident where he lost a homerun and the fan caught it before each dodger game the public address announcer makes a speech wherein he says that fans are welcome to the souvenirs of balls that are hit into the stands as long as they do not interfere with any that are in the field of play was the fan wrong should he have been more aware of the situation and acted to avoid any possibility of interference yes i think he should have done more to get out of the way as much as fans want to catch a ball they really should be aware that winning the game is more important as a dodger fan he has to be aware that this is the home stadium and that entails helping the home team win in any way possible as soon as the ball was hit that far his first instinct should be to root for darryl to catch it not to try to catch it himself particularly when he is sitting that close i enjoy the attitude of the wrigley fans where they are against visiting team home runs so much they actually throw them back on the field now this has nothing to do with whether darryl could have caught it or not sure he probably screwed up but the fan should realize his first responsibility is to get out of the way and help the team win daniel daniel caldera usc edu
rec.sport.baseball	re yankee bullpen help alan sepinwall writes bullpen blues deleted what s buck gonna do and what s george gonna do if this continues to happen alan george will do the only logical thing he can do when the yanks bullpen isn t performing fire the manager david j dwarner journalism indiana edu blue riddle productions it s on the rap is an art ep is coming out on tape this time for real e mail me for the
rec.sport.baseball	re dave kingman for the hall of fame in article apr princeton edu roger astro princeton edu roger lustig writes as for ryan is his w l better than morris that s what a lot of voters tend to look at and morris was awfully good for a decade and doesn t lead mlb history in walks allowed either despite walks and loses ryan deserves to be in the hall of fame imho based only on his ho hitters the strike out records are an extra what do people think about andre hr dawson for the hof name ken kubey or qb reading editing or printing of this text address kubey sgi com without the express written consent of disclaimer the usual major league baseball is prohibited
rec.sport.baseball	re bonds vs maddux in article c l l hfz cup hp com loos cup hp com joe loos writes i ve been following the giants closely over the off season newspapers notesgroup etc but i had my first up close and personal last night at the stick after watching giants hitters struggle last year barry s swing was very impressive he s very quick and his swing seems effortless even compared to clark particularly clark as of late it was interesting to see bonds hit maddux so well i m not sure if barry was after revenge against the braves or what but he stroked three very pretty hits b b hr for rbi s the giants always hit maddux well but it was interesting that maddux did not pitch around bonds to get to clayton last night he threw straight fastballs over the plate to bonds in the st last night got away with the first one but bonds hit the second one out of the park then in the rd when clark was at third base with one out maddux did not intentionally walk bonds and bonds dropped a single to left center the giants as a team are doing a lot of surprising things this year in addition to bonds there has been some good pitching and some hitters seem to be swinging much better clayton s defense has been superb mcgee seems to like leading off this year manwaring is driving the ball so on so forth the braves announcers pointed out that mcgee as a leadoff hitter has not scored a run yet he will always hit around but i m concerning about his on base percentage the key in the lineup is matt williams he has to stay hot so that bonds can hit with runners on base i hope it continues i think they need to continue well into june before people are really sold that they are for real particularly the pitching the pitching gets a set back as bud black is placed on the dl burba has done a superb job filling in so far he looks like a different pitcher from last year however swift is terrible in both of his starts with burba moving into the rotation mike jackson is the only right handed reliever aside from rod beck he ll get a lot of actions i also hope that dusty can manage his bullpen better than roger craig especially on beck i was concerned when beck was used for straight days earlier this week for myself i think the fresh start of magowan baker etc has really wiped out a lot of negatives from the last few years and will be a real factor in helping them significantly improve over last year so far so good edward hui
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players ma ind blurt oswego edu wrote i believe that rusty staub was also a jewish ball player also mordaci brown back in the early th century he was a pitcher whose nickname was fingers brown for obvious reasons he had fingers for ma ind daniel patrick staub is a catholic school kid from nawlins mordecai brown a farm kid probably protestant from somewhere in the midwest he lost those fingers in a farm machinery accident jim palmer isn t jewish himself but mr jockey shorts s adoptive parents are also i m not absolutely certain that carew actually converted his wife and children certainly are jewish neal traven pitt edu you re only young once but you can be traven vms cis pitt edu immature forever larry andersen
rec.sport.baseball	re why spanky sherri nichols writes in article ql binn s postoffice psc edu boone psc edu jon boone writes spanky is too slow if he were quicker he would still be here but with slaught and tom prince they didn t want to lose prince in order to bring up that th pitcher slaught is about as good as spanky and prince is coming along nicely tom prince is a year old no hit catcher think of him as a young dann bilardello or a young don bordello i can t begin to fathom why the pirates have been so afraid of losing this guy who s been in aaa most of the last seasons the pirates released kirk gibson last year because prince was out of options then eventually sent prince down anyway and he cleared waivers without a peep he s another year older and still can t hit why do they think he wouldn t clear waivers now why would they care there s a strong possibility that the bucs have absolutely no other catching prospects in the minors at this point at least nobody ready for any serious aaa majors duty the main reason they might have stayed with prince could be just age especially if spanky was creeping toward his mid s or something all things considered though i d be a lot more comfortable with spanky behind the plate than prince isn t there decent backup backstop out there looking for work sherri nichols snichols adobe com david j dwarner journalism indiana edu blue riddle productions it s on the rap is an art ep is coming out on tape this time for real e mail me for the
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players in article apr lafibm lafayette edu vb lafibm lafayette edu vb writes just wondering a friend and i were talking the other day and we were for some reason trying to come up with names of jewish baseball players past and present we weren t able to come up with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and maybe john lowenstein can anyone come up with any more i know it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this but humor us thanks for your help wasn t ron bloomberg the former yankee who got the first base hit by a designated hitter jewish scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let s go mets
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players in article apr lafibm lafayette edu vb lafibm lafayette edu vb writes just wondering a friend and i were talking the other day and we were for some reason trying to come up with names of jewish baseball players past and present we weren t able to come up with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and maybe john lowenstein can anyone come up with any more i know it sounds pretty lame to be racking our brains over this but humor us thanks for your help oh i forgot art shamsky former red and mets player batted between injuries in fell short of qualifying for top because of injuries and platoon with ron swoboda no swobo wasn t jewish scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let s go mets
rec.sport.baseball	re sid fernandez in article apr csi jpl nasa gov cub csi jpl nasa gov ray miller writes i read this morning that sid fernandez left last nights game with stiffness in his shoulder does anyone have any information as to the extent of the injury if indeed there is one or weather the cold air in colorado just got his joints a little stiff thanks for the help all they said on the radio that he developed stiffness in the shoulder after throwing a curveball that didn t loosen because of the cold night in denver they decided to remove him from the game rather than let him pitch he is expected to pitch his next turn in the rotation expected to be april at shea vs the giants scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let s go mets
rec.sport.baseball	re best homeruns in article apr osf org dswartz osf org dan swartzendruber writes in article hpcc corp hp com boell hpcc corp hp com donald p boell writes i d have to say the most impressive hrs i ve ever see came from dave kingman and his infamous moon raker drives i remember one he hit circa at wrigley field that went across the street in dead center field and hit a house on the roof he whiffed a lot but when he did connect watch out the best home run i have ever seen came off believe it or not roger clemens sorry val a couple of years ago he threw a ball to incaviglia which was literally at inky s neck and he absolutely hammered the crap out of it after the swing clemens nonchalantly motioned for a new ball he didn t even turn around to look or even get upset the ball hit the lights in the left field standard some or so feet about the green monster over feet above the ground total truly an amazing shot charles
rec.sport.baseball	re braves pitching updatedir amazingly pitchers no matter how good their mechanics are not machines cy young winners don t pitch in a vaccuum unaware of how their offenses are doing the braves pitching staff is already showing signs of cracking under the strain of knowing they re not going to get many if any runs unfortunately the braves pitchers were so bad for so long that the organization put so much stress and i mean stress on pitching that they completely ignored hitting the braves right now are looking woefully similar to the braves of the mid seventies heaven help us econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke s to my correspondents my email has been changed e l my new address is fls econ duke edu d f if mail bounces try fls raphael acpub duke edu u
rec.sport.baseball	braves stoppers the term stopper is generally used to refer to a pitcher one who can be counted on to pitch a strong game to keep his team from going on a losing streak the braves have plenty of pitchers to fit this description although right now i d expect smoltz or glavine to take the mantle what the braves lack however is an offensive stopper somebody they can look to to bring them out of their hitting slump there s just no one there the braves got rid of their best pure hitter lonnie smith and only terry pendleton on the current roster has ever shown more than a cursory ability to hit oh and another thing that worries me ron gant seems to have slowed down a step that s scary a slow ron gant doesn t have much going for him econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke s to my correspondents my email has been changed e l my new address is fls econ duke edu d f if mail bounces try fls raphael acpub duke edu u
rec.sport.baseball	re omar vizquel grand salami cheryl marks writes do you think omar s grand slam is the result of his new fan club last week a banner appeared in the kingdome older women for omar that depends just how much older were they cheryl david j dwarner journalism indiana edu blue riddle productions it s on the rap is an art ep is coming out on tape this time for real e mail me for the
rec.sport.baseball	re ind source picks baerga over alomar case closed that s a joke alomar might not be a gold glover but he s certainly no worse than baerga defensively actually alomar is a two time gold glover valentine edk
rec.sport.baseball	mlb c could some kind soul out there e mail me the on where i can find the mlb c program i m interested in some road trips this year david j dwarner journalism indiana edu blue riddle productions it s on the rap is an art ep is coming out on tape this time for real e mail me for the
rec.sport.baseball	re gotta a question in article sdcc ucsd edu demers cs ucsd edu david demers writes in article cjkuo symantec com cjkuo symantec com jimmy kuo writes gt e prism gatech edu michael andre mule writes what is the maximum runs allowed before a stopper can get credit for a relief i e if a stopper comes in with a run lead does he getcredit with the save if you come in and pitch the last three innings and your team was ahead when you got out there and wins the game you get a save sort a correct if you pitched at least innings entered with your team in the lead was the pitcher when the game ended the game was never tied during your stint and your team won you get a save well the rulebook says that in the opinion of the scorer you must have pitched effectively for your innings this save is not automatic unlike the others someone in sabr actually looked at these games a few years ago and found that the official scorer awarded the save in every one of the games even those in which the pitcher had pitched badly allowing or runs seeing hearing my two sense worth john rickert rickert nextwork rose hulman edu
rec.sport.baseball	re sandberg runs rbis was re notes on jays vs indians series in article apr princeton edu roger astro princeton edu roger lustig writes right so who cares which player gets credited as long as the team gets more runs if a player helps the team get more r and rbi but doesn t score them all himself who cares amusing isn t it seems only the sdcns realize how much baseball is a team game combining efforts from every player for the win consider the red sox game last night the sox won in the bottom of the th who won the game clemens pitched a strong nine innings allowing only two runs ryan pitched a couple shutout innings though he needed some excellent defensive plays behind him to do so quantrill pitched a couple of innings gave up the go ahead run and got credited with the win when the sox scored two in the bottom of the inning looks like a team effort to me yet only quantrill got credit for the win how about the offense dawson and vaughn hit i think hrs early in the game without either one the sox would have lost in nine quintana led off the th with a solid single zupcic pinch ran for quintana providing the speed to go from first to third when cooper ripped a second single in the inning melvin avoided the dp getting the run home with a sac fly not much of a help but it was something scrub richardson then hit a double scoring the speedy cooper all the way from first hill s lack of defense helped cooper and zupcic were credited with runs melvin and richardson were credited with rbis but it seems to me that it was quintana s hit that set up the whole inning and did melvin really contribute as much as richardson furthermore people seem to consider rbis to be more significant than runs did melvin contribute more than cooper cooper provided the game winning baserunner and moved the tying run to third base with only one out assigning credit based on runs and rbis is clearly ridiculous you can argue that obp and slg don t show you who came through in the clutch but r rbi don t do any better at least obp and slg don t claim to try to tell you that here s to the red sox who contributed to last night s victory all of them valentine
rec.sport.baseball	re erickson keith miller in article apr mintaka lcs mit edu frankkim catfish lcs mit edu frank kim writes hi i was just wondering if anyone knew when erickson and keith miller are expected to come back and what exactly ails them dunno about miller if you mean scott erickson currently the reigning twins least consistent good player he pulled a muscle in the neighborhood of the rib cage that made it essentially impossible for him to pitch temporarily and is expected back on the mound sunday david thornley with tickets to see one of the scott ericksons pitch
rec.sport.baseball	re infield fly rule in article qmrciinnoin gap caltech edu shippert cco caltech edu tim shippert writes about the infield fly rule so if he s feeling lucky your runner at second can sprint for glory as soon as the ball is popped up if it isn t caught he s probably scored a run if it is he s probably headed for aaa unless he s deion sanders in which case he just heads back to the dugout and waits for his next base running blunder opportunity econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke s to my correspondents my email has been changed e l my new address is fls econ duke edu d f if mail bounces try fls raphael acpub duke edu u
rec.sport.baseball	re when is melido due back melido came off the dl today and will start tonight against the rangers now if only he can go the distance so that the bullpen doesn t have to come in i m outta here like vladimir alan sepinwall what s this this is ice this is what happens to water when it gets too cold this this is kent this is what happens to people when they get too sexually frustrated val kilmer real genius
rec.sport.baseball	re wfan in article apr cabell vcu edu csc imd cabell vcu edu ian m derby writes on the serious side maybe we should have a sub for sports radio tv as much as people complain about one station or another the information you hear is a lot more in depth than what you can get on the ap wire or usa today so to benefit those who have favorite teams outside of their vicinity this would do wonders people can get on and talk about what cataldi said about the eagles or what lupica said of the bonilla incident etc this can be for any station across the country anyone agree i agree although i would have no idea how to go about doing it but you ve got my vote i m outta here like vladimir alan what s this this is ice this is what happens to water when it gets too cold this this is kent this is what happens to people when they get too sexually frustrated val kilmer real genius
rec.sport.baseball	re bonilla jiann ming su writes bobby bonilla supposedly use the word faggot when he got mad at that author in the clubhouse should he be banned from baseball for a year like schott it wouldn t bother me david j dwarner journalism indiana edu blue riddle productions it s on the rap is an art ep is coming out on tape this time for real e mail me for the
rec.sport.baseball	re best homeruns in article qn tqinnmnf senator bedfellow mit edu cmk athena mit edu charles m kozierok writes the best home run i have ever seen came off believe it or not roger clemens sorry val a couple of years ago he threw a ball to incaviglia which was literally at inky s neck and he absolutely hammered the crap out of it after the swing clemens nonchalantly motioned for a new ball he didn t even turn around to look or even get upset the ball hit the lights in the left field standard some or so feet about the green monster over feet above the ground total truly an amazing shot i agree home runs off clemens are always memorable kinda like eclipses and hurricanes they don t happen very often cheers valentine
rec.sport.baseball	re jewish baseball players i thought that walt weiss was jewish i seem to recall this was mentioned once while he was still at oakland also i have my suspicions about esther canseco nee haddad gidi
rec.sport.baseball	royals final run total i ve been saying this for quite some time but being absent from the net for a while i figured i d stick my neck out a bit the royals will set the record for fewest runs scored by an al team since the inception of the dh rule p s any ideas what this is they will fall easily short of runs that s for damn sure i can t believe these media fools picking them to win the division like our tom gage of the detroit news claiming herk robinson is some kind of genius for the trades aquisitions he s made c ya sean sean sweda sweda css itd umich edu css itd consultant president bob sura fan club gm manager motor city marauders internet baseball league play ball
rec.sport.baseball	era formula hello as the subject tells all i am trying to find out what is the formula to calculate the era for the pitchers if any of you baseball fans have it please e mail me at napoli atc olivetti com thank you very much gaetano napolitano
rec.sport.baseball	re the phillies deja vu my dad has always blamed the phillies collapse in on me on sept the phillies had something like a game lead with to play i was born on sept the phils proceeded to lose something like straight while the cards won straight does anyone know hte exact numbers and a pennant was blown to this day my dad likes to remind me that it all began when i was born krm
rec.sport.baseball	re candlestick park experience long craige sad hp com craig eid writes these things should have been done a long time ago but it took a real businessman ex safeway president peter magowan to figure it out just like he used to tell his checkers if the customers don t come back i don t need as many checkers this isn t a knock on bob lurie he was a competent businessman but he didn t deal much with the general public interesting article craig it s amazing how hard it is to get baseball teams to understand how to properly market their teams and treat their customers no other business could ever get away with the th century attitudes that most current owners display in running their clubs i guess the owners look at baseball s high growth rate and ask why it s necessary to bring th century business practices into the game but they don t realize how much more growth the game is capable of and how much they pay in terms of long term popularity by not doing better by the game and its fans greg
rec.sport.baseball	re players rushed to majors in article hydra gatech edu re prism gatech edu russell earnest writes this brings back the long suffering memories of pre chop braves fans who kept being promised the bob horner dale murphy back to back power slam who could stop that guess we ll never know why not horner played games in and hit hr murphy played and hit in horner hit in games and murphy hit in games and the braves lost and games john rickert rickert nextwork rose hulman edu
rec.sport.baseball	re rockies spoon feed game to mets in article hpcc corp hp com boell hpcc corp hp com donald p boell writes is it just me or does bichette look totally lost in the outfield he s been playing horrible defense baylor said after wednesday s game that he wanted to shake up the lineup a little because bichette has been having a rough time defensively and jerald clark has not been hitting he was true to his word i went to thursday s game and gerald young was in right and daryl boston who has a very hot bat was in left baylor was careful to say though that he didn t necessarily mean for these changes to be permanent but he wanted to give these other two a shot while clark and bichette were not playing well in defense of bichette it looks like right field in mile high stadium is a bitch to play some of the visiting outfielders have been having some problems too although bobby bonilla made a great catch crashing into the wall to rob daryl boston of an extra base hit in thursday s game greg
rec.sport.baseball	re bring on the o s i heard that eli is selling the team to a group in cinninati this would help so that the o s could make some real free agent signings in the offseason training camp reports that everything is pretty positive right now the backup catcher postion will be a showdown between tackett and parent although i would prefer parent draft pick jeff hammonds may be coming up faster in the o s hierarchy of the minors faster than expected mike flanagan is trying for another comeback big ben is being defended by coaches saying that while the homers given up were an awful lot most came in the beginning of the season and he really improved the second half this may be ben s year i feel that while this may not be mussina s cy young year he will be able to pitch the entire season without periods of fatigue like last year around august i really hope baines can provide the rf support the o s need orsulak was decent but i had hoped that chito martinez could learn defense better and play like he did in the o s right now don t have many left handed hitters anderson proving last year was no fluke and cal s return to his averages would be big plusses in a drive for the pennant the rotation should be sutcliffe mussina mcdonald rhodes olson is an interesting case will he strike out the side or load the bases and then get three pop outs you never know the way i see the al east this year with personal biases mixed in baltimore new york toronto milwaukee cleveland boston detroit the top are the only true contenders in my mind one of these will definitely win the division unless it snows in hell maryland i feel that this baltimore s season to finally put everything together admiral steve c liu internet address admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu committee for the liberation and intergration of terrifying organisms and their rehabilitation into society from red dwarf polymorph the bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed this sig has been brought to you by frungy the sport of kings
rec.sport.baseball	baseball stats hello my friends and i are running the homewood fantasy baseball league pure fantasy baseball teams unfortunely we are running the league using earl weaver baseball ii with the comm disk ii and we need the stats for the season preferably the major league stat disk we have the total stats but ewb needs the split stats otherwise we have inning games because the comm disk turns total stats into vs l s stats unless you know both right and left handed stats so if anyone has the ewb stat disk please e mail me admiral steve c liu internet address admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu committee for the liberation and intergration of terrifying organisms and their rehabilitation into society from red dwarf polymorph the bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed this sig has been brought to you by frungy the sport of kings
rec.sport.hockey	superstars and attendance was teemu selanne was leaders dean j falcione posting from jrmst pitt edu writes i wrote when the pens got mario granted there was big publicity etc etc and interest was immediately generated gretzky did the same thing for la however imnsho neither team would have seen a marked improvement in attendance if the team record did not improve in the year before lemieux came pittsburgh finished with points following his arrival the pens finished with and points with a couple of stanley cups thrown in it was at this point the pens attendance was near capacity out of sellouts yet they hadn t made the playoffs since how do you explain a th place team breaking attendance records when they haven t been to the playoffs in years mario lemieux is the explanation imho you could make a case that the expectation of an improving team that would make the playoffs is the reason funny you should mention it this is exactly the case i was going to make but i think the reason is lemieux had a point season and was the first non gretzky to win the hart and ross since people turned out to watch him play i will grant that a star like mario will draw fans even if the team sucks but this is short term only i still do not think the attendance increase will last unless the team is a winning competitive improving butt kicking one pittsburgh was still getting better so people continued to support them if they suddenly dropped to say points you d have knee surgery for some of the people jumping off the bandwagon also the following year the pens had points not ok my numbers came from the nhl guide and record book they made the transaction to try and build a winner around mario that is true but the improvement in attendance came before they started doing this coffey late in and before they even had a playoff bound team a doubling of attendance occured in from the previous year an increase from points to points is not going to do that the arrival of mario lemieux is what did it you can give the credit to mario since he deserves it but my point is that it wasn t mario himself but it was the expectation of things to come i e a winning team that he created by being the next great hockey superstar and before anybody jumps in and says i m nit picking and mincing words go back and read from where this thread started it might help to think about what would go through a fan s mind who suddenly found an interest in mario and the pens was it gee mario lemieux is amazing i ll go watch him play or was it gee now we ve got a kick ass guy on our side i ll go watch him play i think it was the latter similar thing happened in l a before gretzky s arrival about per game after constant sellouts they are still selling out every game despite showing little or no improvement since gretzky s first year there how do you explain it people are going to see gretzky they certainly aren t going to see a winner they haven t got a winner they ve had much better teams in their past history than they currently have yet they didn t draw as well then i don t think this is accurate the tickets sell but people don t go to the games i think this thread has already been discussed season ticket holders in la don t always use their tickets so in effect after the kings initial success following gretzky s arrival to points same source and corresponding attendance jump there has been an effective drop in attendance even though ticket sales may not have changed much whether or not the kings are a winner is debatable i claim that since gretzky s arrival they have at the very least been competitive i also claim that mcnall has made a stupid move in trying to reassemble the oiler dynasty but that s another story and included only because i don t like mcnall anyway mcnall did do some heavy marketing around gretzky and that undoubtedly was also responsible for the attendance and merchandising sales etc but as i said when the kings have been in there little tailspins over the past couple of years there have been empty seats at the forum even if the tickets were sold i think in the case of a lemieux or gretzky the player can transcend winning as the major drawing power for the short term imo although i think that it s inevitable that the team will improve with a player such as lemieux or gretzky simply because they make people around them better but winning sure as hell helps well at least we are in full agreement here this does not make roger s point any more valid but the jets aren t so are you saying roger has ever had a valid point couldn t resist getting a huge jump in productivity yet they are getting a huge jump in attendance this is due to the emergence of teemu selanne they have the th best record in hockey it sure as hell isn t because they are winning yes but they are doing no worse than last year i think the same type of reasoning i applied to a new pittsburgh fan applies to all the extra people showing up at winnipeg games it s difficult to predict but do you think that if the jets miss the playoffs next season that in the year after they will maintain their attendance levels i seriously doubt it because in that case the expectation of an improving team would be gone with or without selanne i did provide the example of rocket ismail and the toronto argonauts of the cfl did you leave it out because you don t know much about the cfl if that s the case then fair enough but if it isn t the case then i m curious to hear your explanation
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl team leaders in in article mar ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes the jets use the breakaway pass scheme to create a scoring sensation in order to generate interest if teams score as many or more goals against winnipeg when selanne is on the ice as winnipeg scores when he is on the ice then i can t see how his contribution can be described as impressive implicitly you are assuming that goals scored against winnipeg with selanne on the ice can be blamed on him roger he is a forward winnipeg has a lousy defensive record anyway let s put it another way john cullen s is terrible what s your excuse for him that his powerplay points don t count neither do selanne s the object of the game is not to feed selanne it is to win and feeding selanne does not contribute in any meaningful way to winning knowledgeable hockey observers the world over would agree that feeding selanne so he can score does contribute in a meaningful way to winning pat burns wouldn t have a goal suck like this on his team you re worried about teemu when you have glenn anderson on your team we don t know what selanne does best we do know what jet s management wants and again the object of the exercise is not to allow selanne to do what he does best it is to win hockey games what he does best is score so i refer you to my comment above as it is now selanne is a grandstanding goal suck did you see the way he parades around with his arms outstretched after scoring a goal you would think the messiah had returned nope didn t see it i was too busy watching foligno jump up and down after his goal
rec.sport.hockey	re this year s biggest and worst opinion i can only comment on the kings but the most obvious candidate for pleasant surprise is alex zhitnik he came highly touted as a defensive defenseman but he s clearly much more than that great skater and hard shot though wish he were more accurate in fact he pretty much allowed the kings to trade away that huge defensive liability paul coffey kelly hrudey is only the biggest disappointment if you thought he was any good to begin with but at best he s only a mediocre goaltender a better choice would be tomas sandstrom though not through any fault of his own but because some thugs in toronto decided to threaten his career in order to avoid conceding a goal other than that the award goes to robert lang an uninspiring czech robitaille could easily be mvp but i d prefer to give it to rob blake who is quietly becoming one of the league s premier defensemen and if the kings manage to hold onto him and the rest of our young defense it could one day mean that we ll let in fewer goals than hartford honorable mentions to majestic marty and warren rychel jon
rec.sport.hockey	re this year s biggest and worst opinion in article c zcii ftn watserv uwaterloo ca smale healthy uwaterloo ca bryan smale writes mvp biggest biggest suprise disappointment los angeles kings robitaille donnelly hrudey i would have chosen alex zhitnik for biggest suprise they did expect that he would become a great defenseman but i don t think anyone knew that he was going to be this impressive in his rookie year his speed skating ability and puck control is exceptional he is the one to watch on the kings kris kris fs assist uci edu go kings
rec.sport.hockey	re ncaa finals winner maine beat lssu the logistician reigns supreme go blue go tigers go pistons go lions go red wings ching wpi wpi edu
rec.sport.hockey	and they re off well i gotta tell ya last night s leafs game vs the devils was a nail bitter let me tell you it was a well played game by both teams i thought but according to the don and ron it was the an off night for the leafs and the devils were outplaying toronto well i beg to differ imho clark deserved to be a first star as much as gilmour did his fast breaks towards the net and the good opportunites that he created reminded me of the clark of old but not to take any of the credit away from gilmour i think the leafs are playing great hockey why well first look at their injury list which includes cullen ellet zezel macoun of course my question is this how will the leafs fare when they are once again healthy if they are playing this well so far second just look at their standings still second in defence moved from th overall to th over in the last month haven t lost at home in last games game undefeated streak etc btw am i wrong or was this potvin s first shut out i can t remember him having any as of yet well as of april we see that the race for first in the norris has truly begun and it will be a very close race between chicago and toronto and the best game of the season will probably be their last against each other is anyone lucky enough to have tickets to see this one coming to the stretch and still a roar in go leafs go alfred yong jeh yim toronto wins the b mathematics actuarial science cup university of waterloo canada i like coca cola idea personally e mail ayim descartes waterloo edu
rec.sport.hockey	re give blood tee shirts the shirts are believe or not from a bob probert line of clothes the whole shirt says give blood fight probie cool they sound like a cult classic can someone post a address or phone of a store that sells these thanks jake
rec.sport.hockey	ncaa finals winner lake state maine in finals who won please post
rec.sport.hockey	re trade rumor montreal ottawa phillie also sprach slegge kean ucs mun ca tsn sportsdesk just reported that the ottawa sun has reported that montreal will send players million including vin damphousse and brian bellows to phillidelphia phillie will send eric lindros to ottawa and ottawa will give it s first round pick to montreal if this is true it will most likely depend on whether or not ottawa gets to choose st overall can ottawa afford lindros salary personally i can t see philli giving up lindros for anything they didn t give away that much to quebec just to trade him away again not to mention that lindros seems to be a huge draw in phillie and that he represents a successful future for the franchise ottawa may be better off taking the players from montreal for the pick stephen legge slegge kean ucs munc ca two things didn t the trade deadline pass two weeks ago the flyers would never ever ever give up lindros simple as that go flyers cup in mike yes rush marillion elp genesis king crimson dream theater beatles mike weintraub aka jvi on irc courageous convictions mweintr american edu will drag the dream jedi wave cerf net into existence the american university washington dc rush not limbaugh go philadelphia flyers vancouver canucks philadelphia phillies
rec.sport.hockey	re re alignnment expansion in article c zhj xb idacom hp com andrew idacom hp com andrew scott writes in article apr nntpd cxo dec com nixdorf etre eric nixdorf writes looking at the way the divisions were re aligned there are six teams each in the central norris and pacific smyth divisions while there are seven teams each in the northeast adams and atlantic patrick divisions the thought occurs to me that inherent in the realignment is expansion of one team in the central division and one team in the pacific division although i ve seen nothing published that indicates that actually when the nhl expansion committee was formed a couple of years back before the ottawa and tampa bay expansion john zeigler stated at the time that it was the nhl s expansion plan to grow to teams per division by the turn of the century andrew scott andrew idacom hp com hp idacom telecom division ext during the roman era was considered old last night during a sharks broadcast commissioner bettman was interviewed during the first intermission he made no bones about it the expansion to is on permanent hold until he is satisfied that the current allotment of are fully stable this means that cities looking for a club in the foreseeable future will have to wait until one team in some location fails or looks to relocate this is good imo there s no sense in expanding if it only means more failing franchises are in the mold tom galvin galvint taurus cs nps navy mil
rec.sport.hockey	nhl summary parse results for games played sat april tampa bay philadelphia first period philadelphia carkner unassisted philadelphia hawgood recchi lindros pp philadelphia lindros recchi hawgood pp tampa bay beers zamuner chambers pp second period tampa bay andersson hamrlik lafreniere pp philadelphia conroy butsayev faust philadelphia beranek galley hawgood pp third period philadelphia recchi brind amour galley pp philadelphia power play scorer g a pts beranek brind amour butsayev carkner conroy faust galley hawgood lindros recchi tampa bay power play scorer g a pts andersson beers chambers hamrlik lafreniere zamuner vancouver detroit first period detroit kozlov fedorov chiasson detroit drake ciccarelli coffey pp vancouver ronning slegr bure pp second period detroit sheppard drake hiller detroit ciccarelli chiasson drake pp third period detroit ysebaert fedorov cheveldae sh detroit power play special goals pp sh total scorer g a pts cheveldae chiasson ciccarelli coffey drake fedorov hiller kozlov sheppard ysebaert vancouver power play scorer g a pts bure ronning slegr buffalo boston first period buffalo audette corkum wood boston juneau neely oates second period buffalo errey lafontaine khmylev boston douris d sweeney bourque third period boston donato unassisted boston power play scorer g a pts bourque donato douris juneau neely oates sweeney d buffalo power play scorer g a pts audette corkum errey khmylev lafontaine wood calgary san jose first period calgary suter reichel macinnis pp second period san jose zmolek odgers evason san jose kisio garpenlov gaudreau pp calgary lindberg macinnis pp third period no scoring overtime calgary fleury otto yawney calgary power play scorer g a pts fleury lindberg macinnis otto reichel suter yawney san jose power play scorer g a pts evason garpenlov gaudreau kisio odgers zmolek pittsburgh quebec first period quebec kamensky huffman quebec young lapointe huffman second period pittsburgh mullen lemieux murphy pittsburgh lemieux tocchet u samuelsson pittsburgh lemieux tocchet stevens quebec young sundin kovalenko pp third period pittsburgh tippett unassisted sh pittsburgh tippett mceachern mullen pittsburgh power play special goals sh total scorer g a pts lemieux mceachern mullen murphy samuelsson u stevens tippett tocchet quebec power play scorer g a pts huffman kamensky kovalenko lapointe sundin young new jersey toronto first period no scoring second period no scoring third period toronto gilmour andreychuk anderson toronto power play scorer g a pts anderson andreychuk gilmour new jersey power play no scoring ottawa hartford first period ottawa maciver baker luongo hartford kron nylander gosselin hartford burt cassels verbeek hartford cunneyworth yake nylander hartford sanderson cassels houda hartford verbeek cassels zalapski pp second period hartford sanderson cassels zalapski pp third period hartford kron poulin burt ottawa turgeon lamb ottawa baker luongo maciver pp hartford power play scorer g a pts burt cassels cunneyworth gosselin houda kron nylander poulin sanderson verbeek yake zalapski ottawa power play scorer g a pts baker lamb luongo maciver turgeon winnipeg edmonton first period winnipeg tkachuk housley zhamnov pp edmonton klima ciger elik second period winnipeg king unassisted winnipeg zhamnov selanne winnipeg domi selanne housley third period edmonton manson unassisted winnipeg eagles numminen bautin pp winnipeg zhamnov ulanov selanne edmonton gelinas kravchuk ranford edmonton kravchuk buchberger winnipeg power play scorer g a pts bautin domi eagles housley king numminen selanne tkachuk ulanov zhamnov edmonton power play scorer g a pts buchberger ciger elik gelinas klima kravchuk manson ranford chicago st louis first period st louis shanahan janney hull pp second period chicago murphy chelios roenick pp st louis shanahan hedican janney chicago noonan murphy chelios pp st louis bozon ps chicago roenick sutter murphy pp third period no scoring overtime no scoring st louis power play special goals pp ps total scorer g a pts bozon chelios hedican hull janney murphy shanahan chicago power play scorer g a pts chelios murphy noonan roenick sutter montreal ny islanders first period no scoring second period montreal brunet carbonneau daigneault ny islanders turgeon thomas kurvers pp ny islanders mullen unassisted third period montreal bellows desjardins dipietro montreal damphousse desjardins bellows pp montreal power play scorer g a pts bellows brunet carbonneau daigneault damphousse desjardins dipietro ny islanders power play scorer g a pts kurvers mullen thomas turgeon minnesota los angeles first period minnesota dahlen unassisted minnesota courtnall dahlen modano pp second period minnesota mcphee sjodin hatcher pp third period no scoring minnesota power play scorer g a pts courtnall dahlen hatcher mcphee modano sjodin los angeles power play no scoring
rec.sport.hockey	nhl summary parse results for games played sun april ny rangers washington first period ny rangers graves turcotte lowe ny rangers gartner messier ny rangers olczyk messier amonte second period ny rangers beukeboom unassisted third period no scoring ny rangers power play scorer g a pts amonte beukeboom gartner graves lowe messier olczyk turcotte washington power play no scoring boston buffalo first period no scoring second period boston leach wesley oates pp boston oates douris poulin third period boston douris bourque sh boston power play special goals pp sh total scorer g a pts bourque douris leach oates poulin wesley buffalo power play no scoring pittsburgh new jersey first period pittsburgh francis lemieux tocchet pp second period pittsburgh murphy francis mullen sh pittsburgh francis tocchet lemieux pp pittsburgh jagr tocchet francis pp new jersey zelepukin driver lemieux pp third period new jersey maclean nicholls stevens pittsburgh lemieux jagr en pittsburgh power play special goals pp sh en total scorer g a pts francis jagr lemieux mullen murphy tocchet new jersey power play scorer g a pts driver lemieux maclean nicholls stevens zelepukin toronto philadelphia first period philadelphia dineen beranek hawgood philadelphia mcgill lindros recchi second period philadelphia lindros recchi galley third period philadelphia dineen hawgood galley pp philadelphia power play scorer g a pts beranek dineen galley hawgood lindros mcgill recchi toronto power play no scoring vancouver ottawa first period no scoring second period vancouver plavsic craven vancouver momesso nedved plavsic pp third period vancouver bure unassisted vancouver power play scorer g a pts bure craven momesso nedved plavsic ottawa power play no scoring st louis chicago first period chicago sutter murphy chelios pp st louis janney shanahan j brown pp chicago roenick chelios smith pp chicago roenick sutter chelios pp chicago graham gilbert ruuttu st louis janney shanahan crossman second period no scoring third period chicago murphy chelios belfour st louis miller hull janney pp st louis janney miller shanahan chicago power play scorer g a pts belfour chelios gilbert graham murphy roenick ruuttu smith sutter st louis power play scorer g a pts brown j crossman hull janney miller shanahan calgary san jose first period calgary otto yawney ashton pp san jose odgers pederson wilkinson second period calgary nieuwendyk johansson reese calgary reichel skrudland berube third period calgary ashton otto fleury san jose pederson odgers evason san jose odgers gaudreau evason pp calgary power play scorer g a pts ashton berube fleury johansson nieuwendyk otto reese reichel skrudland yawney san jose power play scorer g a pts evason gaudreau odgers pederson wilkinson
rec.sport.hockey	re playoff predictions b stanley cup champion vancouver canucks sorry pittsburgh in a walk jack first of all the penguins will win the cup again who is going to stop them definitely not the canucks my predictions patrick division winner pittsburgh adams division winner quebec or montreal norris division winner detroit smythe division winner winnipeg wales conference champ pittsburgh campbell conference champ detroit stanley cup champions again pittsburgh canucks suck they ll lose in the first round compliments of winnipeg and teemu selanne the pens are almost unstoppable with mario lemieux
rec.sport.hockey	re coloured puck was changes not noted yet in article apr bnr ca dwarf bcarh bnr ca w jim jordan says the precedent was set by the wha in their first season they used a red puck for exhibition games and a blue one for the regular season thankfully they abandoned it in favour of black before the next season began one reason that the wha abandoned the blue puck was the fact that it crumbled very quickly during play the blue dye that was used somehow affected the vulcanized rubber of the puck decreasing its cohesiveness terry u uicvm uic edu
rec.sport.hockey	re wc pool b gb win the gold in apr alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca writes in article porp c zaphod axion bt co uk nmcglynn axion bt co uk writes gb has now risen from nowhere to pool a in seasons they pulled out of the world championships in and did not re enter until when we took part in pool d in we hosted pool d and won all our game to progress to pool c in gb finished th in pool c and then last year we hosted pool c again winning all our games now after pool b gb won all games and in now in pool a world champions next year perhaps just goes to show you what using canadians can do for a hockey team france italy and now great britain all use a significant number of canadians on their hockey teams yup then again there are lots of foreign born players on the canadian national soccer team so the brits give something back to you in the end for the record former ny rangers coach ted darth sator recently led lion milan jari kurri s former team only the nickname s changed devils lion to their second straight italian championship they made the european final four last autumn after losing to swedish champs malmo in the semis and accomplished this feat using fifteen canadian born players mamma mia marcu gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re this year s biggest and worst opinion in article c cjb l z ccu umanitoba ca umturne ccu umanitoba ca daryl turner writes they were and even if washington might consider patty a bust i d rework that trade in a minute druce has been a complete and utter bust here only goals well druce pretty much sucked when he was with the caps he had one good playoffs not season oh well the caps are notorious for making stupid trades anyway as can be seen with the cicarelli and hrivnak trades sigh in another note i d have to say the caps biggest surprise was cote as many caps fans had been expecting a lot from bondra already go skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite go braves an effect on you mike patton faith no more go hornets go capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd a prism gatech edu
rec.sport.hockey	canadian silver dollar stanley cup centennial hi according to my always questionable newspaper there s a silver dollar being minted in canada the back of which commemorates the anniversary of the stanley cup now i know full well what coins are used every day in canada i can easily fish a few out of my pocket change right now in fact my question is since the loon is the only dollar coin that i know is legal tender is this just a commemorative coin with no monetary exchange value or what is it the sort of thing that only hockey buffs and coin collectors might covet with no chance of it being circulated if it is an uncirculated coin what s the current cost and what s its potential value just curious if no one knows i ll take this to soc culture canada and rec collecting or whatever it is thanks again valerie hammerl some days i have to remind him he s not hammerl acsu buffalo edu mario lemieux herb brooks on claude acscvjh ubms cc buffalo edu lemieux top scorer for the devils but v pwwpz ubvms cc buffalo edu known for taking dumb penalties
rec.sport.hockey	re superstars and attendance was teemu selanne was leaders in apr ists ists ca dchhabra stpl ists ca deepak chhabra writes dean j falcione posting from jrmst pitt edu writes but i think the reason is lemieux had a point season and was the first non gretzky to win the hart and ross since people turned out to watch him play i will grant that a star like mario will draw fans even if the team sucks but this is short term only i still do not think the attendance increase will last unless the team is a winning competitive improving butt kicking one pittsburgh was still getting better so people continued to support them if they suddenly dropped to say points you d have knee surgery for some of the people jumping off the bandwagon i disagree mcnall has demonstrated with gretzky that a star brings out the crowds whether or not the team is expected to do well very few fans real istically expect the kings to do well this year although i do and yet they still go out to see gretzky this is the marketing strategy selling the game by selling the stars that is employed by baseball and notably the nba and this is the attitude that the new bettman mcnall leadership is bringing to the league they have gone on record as stating that they are trying to sell the game on its stars timo salami and brett hull are perfect examples of players that real fans know aren t worth a damn and yet being benificiaries of marketing oriented coaching strategies have goal totals that would indicate to the casual observer the very fans the nhl wants to attract that these players are indeed superstars they made the transaction to try and build a winner around mario that is true but the improvement in attendance came before they started doing this coffey late in and before they even had a playoff bound team a doubling of attendance occured in from the previous year an increase from points to points is not going to do that the arrival of mario lemieux is what did it it might help to think about what would go through a fan s mind who suddenly found an interest in mario and the pens was it gee mario lemieux is amazing i ll go watch him play or was it gee now we ve got a kick ass guy on our side i ll go watch him play i think it was the latter it ain t nearly so simple as this the casual fan doesn t think about much at all can you actually find an adult with a digit iq who believes that mcdonalds makes good hamburgers i did provide the example of rocket ismail and the toronto argonauts of the cfl did you leave it out because you don t know much about the cfl if that s the case then fair enough but if it isn t the case then i m curious to hear your explanation yes but apparently the rocket has not lived up to his marketing responsi bilities has he he was hyped initially as a superstar but outside of one grey cup game he has done very little to maintain enhance that assess ment of his talents most argo fans probably feel the team would be better off without him cordially as always rm roger maynard maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca
rec.sport.hockey	re ottawa montreal philly trade here we go again is this the same idiot who posted the gretzky trade to toronto sheeeesh you should have waited until we got over that one before this garbage maybe we would have believed it for half a second not by the way i just heard from mother goose that mario lemieux was traded to winnpeg for tie domi randy psc i know noone has heard of it it s a tiny college in hicksville new hampshire plymouth state college
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl team leaders in in apr ists ists ca dchhabra stpl ists ca deepak chhabra writes implicitly you are assuming that goals scored against winnipeg with selanne on the ice can be blamed on him roger he is a forward winnipeg has a lousy defensive record anyway let s put it another way john cullen s is terrible what s your excuse for him that his powerplay points don t count neither do selanne s are you comparing cullen to salami i would say that that is valid if winnipeg is such a lousy defensive team then why the hell does salami stand around the other team s blueline when the puck is in his own end the object of the game is not to feed selanne it is to win and feeding selanne does not contribute in any meaningful way to winning knowledgeable hockey observers the world over would agree that feeding selanne so he can score does contribute in a meaningful way to winning excuse me are the jets playing hockey let me check yes but just barely they have allowed more goals than they have scored sounds an awful lot like salami s to me sounds like they would be just as well off or better if he played the solid two way game that our friends in finland claim he is capable of but if he did that he wouldn t be chal lenging for the league lead in goals would he the bi planes might be challenging for first however you re worried about teemu when you have glenn anderson on your team now let s see you have compared timo to anderson and cullen who s next mike foligno we don t know what selanne does best we do know what jet s management wants and again the object of the exercise is not to allow selanne to do what he does best it is to win hockey games what he does best is score so i refer you to my comment above some of our finnish friends who have watched him play claim that he can play a solid two way game i would have to say that this style of contribution would be more conducive to winning or don t you think so as it is now selanne is a grandstanding goal suck did you see the way he parades around with his arms outstretched after scoring a goal you would think the messiah had returned nope didn t see it i was too busy watching foligno jump up and down after his goal i don t believe it you did compare him to foligno and i honestly hadn t read this far it would help if you used a little discrimination in your thinking your contributions would be more highly valued if we could see that you weren t trying to be merely argumentative cordially as always rm roger maynard maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca
rec.sport.hockey	re in memoriam dan kelly and danny gallivan in article burke burkemac oshag nd edu burke nd edu r p burke writes when talking about hockey broadcasters let s give a moment of silence to remember the st louis blues great dan kelly many of you may have heard him in the late s and early s on cbs he used to do hockey night in canada intermissions with another recently deceased great danny gallivan of the canadiens agreed here i ll never forget dan kelly calling the play by play in the canada cup he was masterful and danny gallivan will never be replaced even now when i watch hnic i remember his voice when i see an al macinnis or al iafrate hey what s with these guys named al who can shoot shot from the point i still think blistering blast thn had a tribute to gallivan in the issue following his death in the story they included a quote from one of the games he did it went it appears risebrough has pugnaciously construed that check he said and will undoubtedly make a visitation to the box of punition classic vintage gallivan he s sorely missed so here s to two of the best there was and best that ever will be dchhabra stpl ists ca
rec.sport.hockey	this year s biggest and worst opinion i was thinking about who on each of the teams were the mvps biggest surprises and biggest disappointments this year now these are just my observations and are admittedly lacking because i have not had an opportunity to see all the teams the same amount anyway mvp most valuable player to his team both in terms of points and in terms of leadership can t win without him biggest surprise the player who rose above expectation the player that may have raised the level of his game to a new height even if that new level doesn t necessarily warrant an allstar berth includes those players who at the outset of the season may not even have been in the team s plans biggest disappointment the player from whom we expected more e g i picked denis savard in montreal because with the new emphasis on offence brought by demers shouldn t savard have done better team biggest biggest team mvp surprise disappointment boston bruins oates d sweeney wesley buffalo sabres lafontaine mogilny audette jinx calgary flames roberts reichel petit chicago blackhawks roenick ruuttu goulet detroit red wings yzerman chaisson kozlov edmonton oilers manson buchberger mellanby hartford whalers sanderson cassells corriveau los angeles kings robitaille donnelly hrudey minnesota north stars modano tinordi not expected back broten montreal canadiens muller lebeau savard new jersey devils stevens semak maclean new york islanders turgeon king finally marois new york rangers messier kovalev bourque ottawa senators maciver baker jelinek philadelphia flyers lindros recchi fedyk galley eklund pittsburgh penguins lemieux tocchet even for him jagr quebec nordiques sakic ricci kovalenko pearson san jose sharks kisio gaudreau maley st louis blues shanahan c joseph ron sutter tampa bay lightening bradley bradley creighton kasper toronto maple leafs gilmour potvin ellett anderson vancouver canucks bure nedved finally momesso washington capitals hatcher bondra cote elynuik winnipeg jets selanne selanne druce as i mentioned up top these are my impressions from where i sit i would welcome any opinions from those fans nearer their teams in other words anywhere away from a toronto newspaper bryan
rec.sport.hockey	re this year s biggest and worst opinion smale healthy uwaterloo ca bryan smale writes team biggest biggest team mvp surprise disappointment washington capitals hatcher bondra cote elynuik winnipeg jets selanne selanne druce weren t these two traded for each other poetic justice
rec.sport.hockey	re let s talk sticks in article c pt cm odin corp sgi com dptom endor corp sgi com tom arnold writes okay you hockey playing fans finatics out there i m looking over the wide range of aluminum sticks for the first time i ve been playing with pieces of lumbar that seem to weigh alot and break after a few uses so i m thinking of changing to an aluminum shaft so when i break the blade all i have to do is change it the problem is that there is such a wide reange of models and selections out there that i m not certain which to consider can any of you post some of your suggestions and experiences with the aluminum sticks what is the difference between models what do you like dislike about them and which brands are best i ve had and still have a few aluminum sticks i got my first when i was a christian and broke the shaft halfway through the season two years later i bought another a canadian at the beginning of the next season and i still have it i also have an easton that a friend was getting rid off after giving up the game i find that easton blades are easier to get but all brands of blades are pretty well interchangeable watch out for dried up bits of firewood that some stores pass off as blades in my experiences the blades of an aluminum break more often than regular sticks but i ve only ever broken one aluminum shaft i like aluminum sticks the blades are quickly changed even on the bench if you have to on the downside the shaft won t break if you decide to impale yourself on it ciao mark s this is between me and the vegetable rick moranis in little shop of horrors mark shoesmith shoe physics watstar uwaterloo ca
rec.sport.hockey	re this year s biggest and worst opinion in article c zcii ftn watserv uwaterloo ca smale healthy uwaterloo ca bryan smale writes i was thinking about who on each of the teams were the mvps biggest surprises and biggest disappointments this year now these are just my observations and are admittedly lacking because i have not had an opportunity to see all the teams the same amount anyway team mvp surprise disappointment edmonton oilers manson buchberger mellanby well since the oilers didn t win a heck of a lot of games i m not sure they deserve and mvp can t win without him however i d suggest kelly buchberger instead of dave manson who has had a brutal year his pick for the all star game notwithstanding as for biggest surprise i d say that buchberger had higher expectations this year due to his breakthrough year for him last year so he didn t really raise his game my suggestion would be shjon podein one of the callups from cape breton during the year he was quite far down on the depth chart in the oilers stable of prospects but made a big impact on the team he has goals in his games and is only those are decent numbers for a third line player who was seemingly doomed to minor league oblivion the oilers coaching staff likens his style to john tonelli i think he ll be on the full time roster next year as for biggest disappointment you could name any of the players the oilers dumped for lousy production this year nicholls gilchrist tikkanen or even shayne corson but mellanby isn t far off andrew scott andrew idacom hp com hp idacom telecom division ext during the roman era was considered old
rec.sport.hockey	re potvin s new goalie mask stephen legge slegge kean ucs munc ca writes i was wtahcing right guard hockey week on tsn yesterday and they had a feature on this guy that does a lot most of the masks for nhl goalies they talked about how they are made what they are made of and the designs that are put on them etc actually this part was really interesting it turns out that the mask is custom fit to the goalie s face the goalie puts his her face through a piece of wood or was it plastic with a hole in it that allows only the face and forehead to show hair is covered by a cap eyes are covered by a plastic wrap type material and vaseline is put on the goaltender s face then a plaster is spread on their cheeks forehead and chin which takes about minutes to dry sufficiently when it dries it is effectively a mold of the goalie s face this is used as the basis of the mask the rest involves padding the inside hardening the exterior fitting the cage etc etc john blue of the bruins actually demonstrated the procedure on the show he exhibited a couple masks he is currently working on namely a new mask for andy moog which is a basic re working of his current mask with the bear on it and new mask for bob essensa which was really cool the jets logo was on the chin and there were two fighter jets on either side on the forehead with an air brushed back ground yeah essensa s mask looked really good the best one of all was one he never talked about he just held it up it has the current leafs crest on the chin and an awesome looking black panther on the forehead it has to be a new mask for felix potvin but he never said whose it was actually i thought i heard him say that it was potvin s for certain i would bet money on it either way and it did look awesome dchhabra stpl ists ca
rec.sport.hockey	re ncaa finals winner ktgeiss miavx acs muohio edu writes lake state maine in finals who won please post maine
rec.sport.hockey	re this year s biggest and worst opinion in article c zcii ftn watserv uwaterloo ca smale healthy uwaterloo ca bryan smale writes team biggest biggest team mvp surprise disappointment boston bruins oates d sweeney wesley buffalo sabres lafontaine mogilny audette jinx calgary flames roberts reichel petit chicago blackhawks roenick ruuttu goulet chelios is by far the mvp on chicago detroit red wings yzerman chaisson kozlov edmonton oilers manson buchberger mellanby manson by his own admission had a terrible year the oilers don t really have a team mvp by default it should go to craig mactavish shjon podein was the biggest surprise tikkanen the biggest disappointment hartford whalers sanderson cassells corriveau los angeles kings robitaille donnelly hrudey minnesota north stars modano tinordi not expected back broten tinordi was back by mid season last year and when he plays he is the mvp montreal canadiens muller lebeau savard new jersey devils stevens semak maclean new york islanders turgeon king finally marois king had a great year last year also new york rangers messier kovalev bourque how can kovalev be a surprise ottawa senators maciver baker jelinek philadelphia flyers lindros recchi fedyk galley eklund fence sitting look at philly s record with eric and without there is no doubt soderstrom is probably the biggest surprise pittsburgh penguins lemieux tocchet even for him jagr tocchet had a near point season in philly with mike bullard as his center why shouldn t he be able to do that with mario quebec nordiques sakic ricci kovalenko pearson san jose sharks kisio gaudreau maley st louis blues shanahan c joseph ron sutter really joseph deserves the mvp nod tampa bay lightening bradley bradley creighton kasper toronto maple leafs gilmour potvin ellett anderson vancouver canucks bure nedved finally momesso washington capitals hatcher bondra cote elynuik winnipeg jets selanne selanne druce gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re where are the doubters now hmm in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes and after the leafs make cream cheese of the philadelphia side tomorrow night the leafs will be without equal the leafs are the best team in the campbell conference cordially as always rm roger maynard maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca more like philadelphia making dust out of dead leafs roger why do you continue to embarass yourself with your brash predictions they got whitewashed by a last place team granted philly is pretty decent but the best team in the cambell conference would have beaten a last place team scott e humphrey chemical engineering university of tulsa hse vax utulsa edu bruins for the cup opinions expressed are those of the individual not of the u of tulsa
rec.sport.hockey	re don cherry s coach s corner summary april allan cs ualberta ca allan sullivan writes before i begin lambasting don cherry let me first say that i ve been sort of a cherry fan for a while admittedly stuff he says has to be taken lightly but he s more or less harmless on saturday however he crossed the lines of good taste according to don the entire article wasn t perfect and there were some shots by frank musil and alpo suhonen don noted that musil wasn t much of a player didn t score many goals last year he also made fun of their names one guy has a name like dog food the other like a laxitive meta musil this is the best he can do gee don tremendous amounts of professionalism here the cbc looks just as bad as he looks foolish letting him get away with this nonsense making fun of names it s bad enough that he makes asinine blanket statements about european players but he s now resorted to making fun of their names too he sounded like an idiot much like he did last week when he said that teemu would never make it to his rock em sock em video until he dropped the gloves on the subject of realignment don said that he liked the new division names well what he said was that even though he s been around the league for quite some time he still doesn t know who s where w r t conference and division names hello mcfly the names have been around for a couple of decades or so he also invited the audience to name the teams in the wales quick quick followed by ah you don t know i don t know sorry don wrong on this one ron to don i don t know wy i like you on your show for minutes i can hardly stand you on this show for this was absolutely hilarious don s argument about the basketball and baseball brawls was fairly good unfortunately he neglected to mention the fines that were levelled in the nba case serious money oh well he s never been one for objectivity has he don s question to gretzky wouldn t it be better for you to change your friends so that they like the game than for us to change the game for your friends now this i liked
rec.sport.hockey	trade rumor montreal ottawa phillie tsn sportsdesk just reported that the ottawa sun has reported that montreal will send players million including vin damphousse and brian bellows to phillidelphia phillie will send eric lindros to ottawa and ottawa will give it s first round pick to montreal if this is true it will most likely depend on whether or not ottawa gets to choose st overall can ottawa afford lindros salary personally i can t see philli giving up lindros for anything they didn t give away that much to quebec just to trade him away again not to mention that lindros seems to be a huge draw in phillie and that he represents a successful future for the franchise ottawa may be better off taking the players from montreal for the pick stephen legge slegge kean ucs munc ca
rec.sport.hockey	re where are the doubters now hmm jason studsys mscs mu edu jason hanson writes in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs and after the leafs make cream cheese of the philadelphia side tomorrow night the leafs will be without equal then again maybe not to put it mildly as i watched the flyers demolish toronto last night i realized that no matter how good the leafs line may be they ll need one or two more decent lines to go far in the playoffs and of course a healthy felix potvin thomas a darling the cellar bbs public access system darling cellar org genie t darling facthq truth thru technology v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v
rec.sport.hockey	re good for hockey bad for hockey jmd cbnewsm cb att com joseph m dakes writes in article ppdccinnbe dev null phys psu edu stimpy dev null phys psu edu in article c wxnf bx constellation ecn uoknor edu mfoster alliant backbo i prefer the miami colons myself headline flames blow out colons would kevin dineen play for the miami colons as a flyers fan i resent you making kevin dineen the butt of your jokes aw just take a moment to digest it and i m sure you ll see the humour thomas a darling the cellar bbs public access system darling cellar org genie t darling facthq truth thru technology v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v
rec.sport.hockey	re this year s biggest and worst opinion in article apr eng cam ac uk dscy eng cam ac uk d s c yap writes smale healthy uwaterloo ca bryan smale writes team biggest biggest team mvp surprise disappointment washington capitals hatcher bondra cote elynuik winnipeg jets selanne selanne druce weren t these two traded for each other poetic justice they were and even if washington might consider patty a bust i d rework that trade in a minute druce has been a complete and utter bust here only goals daryl turner r s h contact for the winnipeg jets internet umturne ccu umanitoba ca fidonet or please route through tkachuk over to zhamnov up to sel nne he shoots he scores the jets win the cup the jets win the cup essensa for vezina housley for norris sel nne for calder
rec.sport.hockey	hey flyers fans did you ever notice how many people on the net have trouble in the comparitively easy task of spelling the nick name of our fair city i never knew that philadelphia becomes phillie or philli when spoken of so for all you who don t know yet here s a little clue it is spelled p h i l l y ok thank you oh yeah about that drug induced trade rumor i don t think the sniders are that stupid the rumor you should be looking into is mike keenan coming back to coach the flyers later mike mike cornell there are a great many people in the country today who mac po cwru edu through no fault of their own are sane monty python let s go flyers stanley cup in oh my brain hurts mr d p gumby
rec.sport.hockey	re adams division race in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu breton mcrcim mcgill edu pierre breton writes the adams division race is certainly interesting this year here are important data to keep in mind in the eventuality of a tie for a given standing position in head to head games quebec wins over montreal boston leads against quebec with two games remaining montreal and boston are tied with one game remaining pierre breton aka fluide glacial pierre for purposes of the tie breaker you only count the first three games in each city therefore quebec cannot possibly be ahead of montreal and there s probably only one game that counts remaining between boston and quebec which means boston has probably already won pete clark rsh flyers contact
rec.sport.hockey	canadiens another stanley cup with the kind of team montreal has now they can take the cup easily the only problem they have right now is that everyone is trying to steal the show and play alone they need some massive teamwork they are also in a little of a slump because long time hockey montreal canadiens announcer claude mouton died last tuesday and it was rough on everybody because he has worked with the organization for years but i know that is no excuse but if the habs manage to get some good teamwork and get into the spirit they should have no problem winning in may dean
rec.sport.hockey	re where are the doubters now hmm the blackhawks shall triumph walter ladwig this is the weather the cuckoo likes net link armored division submissive to drbombay netlink cts com vernacular the world into a gambling birdhouse velocity the cut ups
rec.sport.hockey	re canadiens another stanley cup pereira cam org dean pereira writes with the kind of team montreal has now they can take the cup easily the only problem they have right now is that everyone is trying to steal the show and play alone they need some massive teamwork they are also in a little of a slump because long time hockey montreal canadiens announcer claude mouton died last tuesday and it was rough on everybody because he has worked with the organization for years but i know that is no excuse but if the habs manage to get some good teamwork and get into the spirit they should have no problem winning in may i agree i also think roy needs a good kick sometimes that horrible loss to the capitals last week yeeeech here s to cup this year richard j rauser you have no idea what you re doing rauser sfu ca oh don t worry about that we re professional wni outlaws we do this for a living remember no matter where you go there you are dr banzai
rec.sport.hockey	too many europeans in nhl ten years ago the number of europeans in the nhl was roughly a quarter of what it is now going into the season the numbers of euros on nhl teams have escalated to the following stats canadians americans europeans please note that these numbers are rounded off and taken from the top players on each of the teams my source is the vancouver sun here s the point there are far too many europeans in the nhl i am sick of watching a game between an american and a canadian team let s say the red wings and the canucks and seeing names like bure konstantinov and borshevshky is this north america or isn t it toronto detriot quebec and edmonton are particularly annoying but the numbers of euros on other teams is getting worse as well i live in vancouver and if i hear one more word about pavel bure the russian rocket i will completely throw up as it is now every time i see the canucks play i keep hoping someone will cross check bure into the plexiglassso hard they have to carry him out on a stretcher by the way i m not a canucks fan to begin with okay the stretcher remark was a little carried away but the point is that i resent nhl owners drafting all these europeans instead of canadians and some americans it denies young canadians the opportunity to play in their north american league and instead gives it to europeans who aren t even better hockey players it s all hype this european mystique is sickening but until nhl owners get over it canadian and american players will continue to have to fight harder to get drafted into their own league with the numbers of euros in the nhl escalating the problem is clearly only getting worse i m all for the creation of a european hockey league and let the bures and selannes of the world play on their own continent i just don t want them on mine richard j rauser you have no idea what you re doing rauser sfu ca oh don t worry about that we re professional wni outlaws we do this for a living remember no matter where you go there you are dr banzai
rec.sport.hockey	lindros will be traded true rumor fact a big three way deal eric lindros going to ottawa senators and senators get mill from montreal montreal gets alexander daigle the first round pick from senators philly gets damphousse bellow patrick roy and a draft pick shadow r node gts org if it s there and you can see it it s real if it s there and you can t see it it s transparent if it s not there and you can t see it you erased it
rec.sport.hockey	re request for islanders e mail list in article apr sifon cc mcgill ca bui ee ee mcgill ca bui don mr writes in article b xvf rpi edu wangr rpi edu writes if anyone out there is keeping an islanders e mail list could you please add me to it thanks in advance ercu can u add me onto the list too thanks rex count me in go isles don bui ee ee mcgill ca please count me in also just can t tell you how excited i was when the islanders beat the rangers in overtime on last friday go isles
rec.sport.hockey	re expansion in article patrick apr blanco owlnet rice edu patrick blanco owlnet rice edu patrick l humphrey writes on fri apr gmt vamwendt atlas cs upei ca michael wendt said albany new york boise idaho a couple of cities with fair interest but size and closeness to other teams is a question albany has their ahl franchise though it goes by the capital district label but boise forget it the chl made an attempt at that part of the country in with a franchise in great falls and no one showed up folks up in that part of the pnw just aren t interested in hockey hey patrick the montana magic played in billings not great falls plh i know where i d put the next two nhl expansion teams phoenix and houston assuming the whalers don t pack up and move in the meantime marc phoenix and houston it is marc foster r s h contact for the oklahoma city blazers central hockey university of oklahoma geography department league adams cup internet mfoster geohub gcn uoknor edu champions mfoster alliant backbone uoknor edu to be placed on the chl mailing list send email to either address above
rec.sport.hockey	re trade rumor montreal ottawa phillie in article apr kean ucs mun ca slegge kean ucs mun ca writes tsn sportsdesk just reported that the ottawa sun has reported that montreal will send players million including vin damphousse and brian bellows to phillidelphia phillie will send eric lindros to ottawa and ottawa will give it s first round pick to montreal obviously some reporter for the ottawa sun got taken by an april fools joke probably started by someone with the nordiques or the bruins like for example who is going to reimburse the flyers for the million they paid to the nordiques like the senators are going to get lindros and million the flyers sent the equivalent of or players when you include the draft choices to quebec and they are going to get only four back some reporter was had real badly and someone must be having a real good laugh seeing as how the so much of the sports media has chosen to publicize this utter nonsense if this is true it will most likely depend on whether or not ottawa gets to choose st overall can ottawa afford lindros salary can you think it cannot possibly be true no need for the if personally i can t see philli giving up lindros for anything they didn t give away that much to quebec just to trade him away again not to mention that lindros seems to be a huge draw in phillie and that he represents a successful future for the franchise ottawa may be better off taking the players from montreal for the pick i can t believe that anyone would consider giving such crap even the remotest consideration gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re too many europeans in nhl in rauser sfu ca rauser fraser sfu ca richard the racist rauser writes all kinds of unacceptably racist drivel deleted and after that we find the man has absolutely nothing to say richard j rauser you are a dishonourable little man caustically when necessary rm roger maynard maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca
rec.sport.hockey	re too many europeans in nhl rauser fraser sfu ca richard john rauser writes okay the stretcher remark was a little carried away but the point is that i resent nhl owners drafting all these europeans instead of canadians and some americans it denies young canadians the opportunity to play in their north american league and instead gives it to europeans who aren t even better hockey players it s all hype this european mystique is sickening but until nhl owners get over it canadian and american players will continue to have to fight harder to get drafted into their own league according to what reasonable principle of justice does standing in intimate geographical and psychological relations to a league give one some privileged right to play in it a european
rec.sport.hockey	re playoff predictions in article apr rose com jack petrilli rose com jack petrilli writes stuff deleted i don t understand why so many people are predicting an upset against pittsburgh the team has won in a row coming into the playoffs they ve won practically every game that they ve really wanted to win all year including critical victories against the caps and one against a hot bruins team at the gaahden the team is probably at its peak stronger than the previous stanley cup winners i mean i know they can lose but it would be a large upset i personally think teams are going to be hard pressed to win or games in any series against the pens and i m not a pittsburgh fan i have to agree here as i heard on tsn tonight you want to pick someone else but you just don t see how you can and i m a bruins fan maybe this year will be different but it doesn t look good time will tell though lots more deleted randy randy a coulman m sc aries laboratory research assistant department of computational science university of saskatchewan coulman cs usask ca saskatoon sk s n w
rec.sport.hockey	re good for hockey bad for hockey in article rs j b w w cellar org darling cellar org thomas darling writes jmd cbnewsm cb att com joseph m dakes writes in article ppdccinnbe dev null phys psu edu stimpy dev null phys psu edu in article c wxnf bx constellation ecn uoknor edu mfoster alliant backbo i prefer the miami colons myself headline flames blow out colons would kevin dineen play for the miami colons as a flyers fan i resent you making kevin dineen the butt of your jokes aw just take a moment to digest it and i m sure you ll see the humour thomas a darling the cellar bbs public access system darling cellar org genie t darling facthq truth thru technology v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v if anybody is having problems following the thread be sure to ask the origonal poster to rectify your misunderstanding koz lets go caps
rec.sport.hockey	re canadiens another stanley cup in rauser sfu ca rauser fraser sfu ca richard john rauser writes pereira cam org dean pereira writes with the kind of team montreal has now they can take the cup easily the only problem they have right now is that everyone is trying to steal the show and play alone they need some massive teamwork this is known as the savard syndrome and we are talking denis not serge no team will ever win squat with the likes of denis savard in their lineup they are also in a little of a slump because long time hockey montreal canadiens announcer claude mouton died last tuesday and it was rough on everybody because he has worked with the organization for years but i know that is no excuse but if the habs manage to get some good teamwork and get into the spirit they should have no problem winning in may they could tell savard to stay home and watch the games on tv i agree i also think roy needs a good kick sometimes that horrible loss to the capitals last week yeeeech here s to cup this year sounds like to me cordially as always rm roger maynard maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca
rec.sport.hockey	re re trade rumor montreal ottawa phillie tsn sportsdesk just reported that the ottawa sun has reported tht montreal will send players million including vin damphousse and brian bellows to philldelphia phillie will send eric lindros to ottawa and ottawa will give it s first round pick to montreal personally i can t see philli giving up lindros for anything here we go again is this the same idiot who posted the gretzky trade to toronto listen asshole i m just commenting on what i heard reported on the sports news you ll notice my skeptical comment sheesh i thought this group wasfor conversation guess i was wrong stephen legge slegge kean ucs munc ca
rec.sport.hockey	re too many europeans in nhl in article rauser sfu ca rauser fraser sfu ca richard john rauser writes ten years ago the number of europeans in the nhl was roughly a quarter of what it is now going into the season the numbers of euros on nhl teams have escalated to the following stats canadians americans europeans here s the point there are far too many europeans in the nhl i am sick you know you re absolutely right i think we should round up all those players of european descent and ship em back to where they came from let s see with whom should we start i dunno lemieux hmmm sounds like he has french blood in him hey france is part of europe send that euro blooded boy back sheesh i m all for the creation of a european hockey league and let the bures and selannes of the world play on their own continent i just don t want them on mine i don t think it would be hard to find some native americans or native canadians for that matter who would dispute your claim to this great continent of ours ya see if you believe the anthropologists we re all immigrants of some sort if you really don t think that mogilny bure selanne et al have improved the nhl then i m not sure you understand the game dan lyddy daniell cory berkeley edu university of california at berkeley no i don t play hockey not too many brothers do deion sanders
rec.sport.hockey	re good for hockey bad for hockey i prefer the miami colons myself headline flames blow out colons would kevin dineen play for the miami colons as a flyers fan i resent you making kevin dineen the butt of your jokes aw just take a moment to digest it and i m sure you ll see the humour if anybody is having problems following the thread be sure to ask the origonal poster to rectify your misunderstanding what about his rectum go skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite go braves an effect on you mike patton faith no more go hornets go capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd a prism gatech edu
rec.sport.hockey	re too many european in nhl ra here s the point there are far too many europeans in the nhl r i am sick of watching a game between an american and a canadian ra team let s say the red wings and the canucks and seeing names r like bure konstantinov and borshevshky is this north america ra isn t it i disagree i think the nhl should feature the best hockey talent in the world regardless of nationality i have to admit that when i see players like gretzky and messier traded off to the us because the canadian teams can t afford them i have been know to say only half seriously that we d probably be better off if we had our own canadian hockey league for canadian players ra i m all for the creation of a european hockey league and let ra te bures and selannes of the world play on their own continent ra ra i just don t want themon mine again it doesn t matter to me russian finnish mexican albertan new yorker black white korean martian plutoneon it doesn t matter any of them can put a leafs jersey on if they can put the puck in stephen legge slegge kean ucs munc ca
rec.sport.hockey	re good for hockey bad for hockey in article hydra gatech edu gtd a prism gatech edu hrivnak writes i prefer the miami colons myself headline flames blow out colons would kevin dineen play for the miami colons as a flyers fan i resent you making kevin dineen the butt of your jokes aw just take a moment to digest it and i m sure you ll see the humour if anybody is having problems following the thread be sure to ask the origonal poster to rectify your misunderstanding what about his rectum it s bad jokes like that which draws crohns i mean groans from the crowd don t bother looking it up in the appendix it s useless anyway just one more word of advice if you go to a miami game stay away from any foods made with natural casings hockey hockey hockey o o u joy joy joy u stimpson j kat stimpy dev null phys psu edu nagy physci psu edu nagy cs psu edu v nagy crayola cs psu edu nagy love shack com and oh yeah ggn psuvm psu edu bitnet
rec.sport.hockey	re ncaa finals winner ktgeiss miavx acs muohi writes lake state maine in finals who won please post maine lssu terry
rec.sport.hockey	re too many europeans in nhl euro bashing in article rauser sfu ca rauser fraser sfu ca richard john rauser writes here s the point there are far too many europeans in the nhl i am sick of watching a game between an american and a canadian team let s say the red wings and the canucks and seeing names like bure konstantinov and borshevshky is this north america or isn t it toronto detriot quebec and edmonton are particularly annoying but the numbers of euros on other teams is getting worse as well i live in vancouver and if i hear one more word about pavel bure the russian rocket i will completely throw up as it is now every time i see the canucks play i keep hoping someone will cross check bure into the plexiglassso hard they have to carry him out on a stretcher by the way i m not a canucks fan to begin with okay the stretcher remark was a little carried away but the point is that i resent nhl owners drafting all these europeans instead of canadians and some americans it denies young canadians the opportunity to play in their north american league and instead gives it to europeans who aren t even better hockey players it s all hype this european mystique is sickening but until nhl owners get over it canadian and american players will continue to have to fight harder to get drafted into their own league with the numbers of euros in the nhl escalating the problem is clearly only getting worse i m all for the creation of a european hockey league and let the bures and selannes of the world play on their own continent i just don t want them on mine ah so now we re into european player bashing what next no more french canadiens yeah there s an idea let them french speaking canadiens have their own hockey league we don t want them are you crazy the nhl is one of the true international leagues and yes there are many europeans who deserve to play in the nhl and are better than some north americans look at teemu i for one am glad to see europeans in the nhl and i hope the nhl soon expands to europe its nice to see all these different people come together to form the soon to be hockey teams richard j rauser you have no idea what you re doing rauser sfu ca oh don t worry about that we re professional wni outlaws we do this for a living remember no matter where you go there you are dr banzai darryl brooks university at buffalo go bills sabres and magic
rec.sport.hockey	stan fischler at the lester patrick awards lunch bill torrey mentioned that one of his options next season is to be president of the miami team with bob clarke working for him at the same dinner clarke said that his worst mistake in philadelphia was letting mike keenan go in retrospect almost all players came realize that keenan knew what it took to win rumours are now circulating that keenan will be back with the flyers nick polano is sick of being a scapegoat for the schedule made for the red wings after all bryan murray approved it gerry meehan and john muckler are worried over the sabres prospects assistant don lever says that the sabres have to get their share now because a quebec dynasty is emerging the mighty ducks have declared that they will not throw money around loosely to buy a team oilers coach ted green remarked that there some guys around who can fill tie domi s skates but none who can fill his helmet senators andrew mcbain told off a security guard at chicago stadium who warned him of the stairs leading down to the locker room mcbain mouthed off at him after all being a seasoned professional and tumbled down the entire steep flight gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
rec.sport.hockey	re hockey hell in article c nq g ekb noose ecn purdue edu rgemeinh separator ecn purdue edu richard a gemeinhart wrote in article mar ncsu edu fmsalvat eos ncsu edu frank mich ae salvatore writes i am originally from new york state and i go to school in north carolina yet i don t constantly gripe about the lack of hockey wouldn t some of you who chose to go to school in the south realize most who gripe are clemson students that hockey isn t quite as popular in south carolina when you chose a school why did you all excuse me y all choose schools in the south if hockey was this important to you not everyone has the luxury of deciding on a college by making sure the hockey coveraage is what you want it to be i am a pittsburgh transplan to s c when at home and the coveraage sucks sports south didn t even show the final game of the stanley cup laast year while it was happening they put it on ktape delay and cut the intermissions then went off the air when you move you take the good with the bad and deal with it it doesn t mean thaat you can t complain about it i was transplanted by my parents from the greater hartford area to the greater cleveland ohio area this was not an action of my choice the only hockey coverage i could get there regularly was red wings and penguins explaining in part why i follow these teams today in cleveland you couldn t even find hockey scores on the o clock news because they figured that if they didn t have it it wasn t a sport at least your parents didn t move you idaho the only things that get any coverage there are football basketball and baseball patty
rec.sport.hockey	european russian hockey team addresses does anyone have the addresses to any of the following hockey teams located in the czech slovak republics finland russia or sweden any information on how to find these addresses would also be appreciated aik assat brynas budejovice chelabinsk djurgarden dynamo eskulap espoo farjestad frolunda hpk hv hifk ilves jyp ht jihlava jokerit jokp kalpa khimik kladno kristall lada leksand litvinov lukko lulea malmo metallurg modo olomouc pardubice red army rogle skoda slovan soviet wings sparta spartak tps tappara trencin tuto vantaa vasteras yaroslavl zlin dee dee france ddf sgi com
rec.sport.hockey	re in memoriam dan kelly and danny gallivan in article apr ists ists ca dchhabra stpl ists ca deepak chhabra writes in article burke burkemac oshag nd edu burke nd edu r p burke writes when talking about hockey broadcasters let s give a moment of silence to remember the st louis blues great dan kelly many of you may have heard him in the late s and early s on cbs he used to do hockey night in canada intermissions with another recently deceased great danny gallivan of the canadiens i loved dan kelly he was on usa when i first got hooked on hockey back in or so no he wasn t always spot on top of the play and he wasn t overly cute but those pipes that lusty barrel chested voice no pipsqueak was he unlike some fellas we know i rode into hockey mania on the coattails of gretzky and the boys on the bus my first finals saw the islanders sweep them but i ll never forget the night a year later when the oilers closed it out at home in the pandemonium the smoke from a million sparklers the long empty net goal near the end and dan kelly letting the crowd s reaction tell the story for a few long seconds then that voice barking through the din dave lumley sews it up for edmonton it sounds stupid but that early for me hockey memory will always bring a thrill since then i ve grown a lot more jaded about the game but i was really saddened by dan kelly s passing he was one of the good guys brian adams reno
rec.sport.hockey	re playoff predictions in article pn qhinnsm senator bedfellow mit edu boudreau athena mit edu carol v boudreau writes in the smythe this one is the toughest for me to call because i have to put personal bias aside go calgary i think a lot depends on who wins the division winnipeg will move into third by the end of the season and the first place winner will have a clear advantage it will be a lot easier to build momentum against a team like the kings whoever plays the kings in the first round will take the division much as it hurts i have to pick division winner vancouver canucks i ll have to disagree with you on this one i think vancouver will go as bure goes and if he continues on his goal scoring slump then they won t even make it out of the first round i think the kings will make it out of the first round regardless of who they play they seem to be doing pretty well even with that bad game against minnesota on saturday i think it ll be either calgary or los angeles to win the smythe i e go on to the conference finals wales conference trophy islanders and bruins will fight to the end but i think the islanders have enough steam to overtake the bruins in seven campbell conference trophy a walk for vancouver maybe in or but definately not stanley cup final islanders and vancouver islanders will have nothing left by this point and will succumb fairly easily to the canucks stanley cup champion vancouver canucks still have to disagree with you here i think it ll be pittsburg to get the hat trick in stanley cups they just look toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo good i hope you have enjoyed my predictions i hope they are not all correct go calgary neither do i well may the best team win it all pittsburg that s just my worth message from the terminal of carol boudreau boudreau athena mit edu
rec.sport.hockey	ncaa hockey final i haven t seen anyone post this so i will do the honors maine beat lssu in milwaukee on saturday night it was quite a game maine stormed to a lead in the first and looked like they might run away with it maine s first goal came inside the first thirty seconds of the game lssu came back at the end of the period to cut the lead to lssu came out in the second dominating the play particularly along the boards the play went quickly with the refs running a no holds barred type of game lssu scored three more unanswered goals to lead at the end of the second now it looked like lssu might just walk away with the game coach walsh of maine replaced the starting goalie dunham with snow who won the game against michigan snow proved to be a much more aggressive goalie the third period like the second belonged to the team behind maine scored three unanswered goals in a span of five minutes after the four minute mark they were all scored by jim montgomery the tournament mvp and all assisted by paul kariya the last minute of the game bears highlighting the change to snow also proved the difference in the end with one minute to go and with the lssu goalie pulled snow dueled with a lssu forward in a amazing set of moves by both snow won it was a great way to end the game this year s three championships games were sold out last year in about one month the bradley center holds approximately douglas j peterson have peterson pms pms ford com you safety laboratories department driven ford motor company a lately
rec.sport.hockey	re too many europeans in nhl in rauser sfu ca rauser fraser sfu ca writes ten years ago the number of europeans in the nhl was roughly a quarter of what it is now going into the season the numbers of euros on nhl teams have escalated to the following stats canadians americans europeans please note that these numbers are rounded off and taken from the top players on each of the teams my source is the vancouver sun here s the point there are far too many europeans in the nhl i am sick of watching a game between an american and a canadian team let s say the red wings and the canucks and seeing names like bure konstantinov and borshevshky is this north america or isn t it toronto detriot quebec and edmonton are particularly annoying but the numbers of euros on other teams is getting worse as well that s why we have expansion to create more jobs nhl teams can t afford to import role players from europe they pick the stars but will continue to build their teams around local players with the numbers of euros in the nhl escalating the problem is clearly only getting worse i m all for the creation of a european hockey league and let the bures and selannes of the world play on their own continent i d love to see a european nhl division but can t see it happen for some time there s simply not enough fan interest at the moment in several crucial markets like germany italy and france while sweden and finland probably can t afford to shell out for tickets the way american canadian fans do call it the minnesota north stars effect scandinavians do love hockey but we prefer to watch local inexpensive hockey to the nhl the national hockey league should love the idea though pan european tv channels such as eurosport could bring in the millions the american networks likely never will pay i just don t want them on mine richard j rauser you have no idea what you re doing rauser sfu ca oh don t worry about that we re professional wni outlaws we do this for a living remember no matter where you go there you are dr banzai
rec.sport.hockey	re this year s biggest and worst opinion in article apr alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca gerald olchowy writes in article c zcii ftn watserv uwaterloo ca smale healthy uwaterloo ca bryan smale writes team biggest biggest team mvp surprise disappointment philadelphia flyers lindros recchi fedyk galley eklund fence sitting look at philly s record with eric and without there is no doubt soderstrom is probably the biggest surprise re eric true but fortunately we didn t get to find out what they would be like without recchi for games soderstrom absolutely shutouts in games for a rookie without a lot of defense in front of him runnerups to galley and fedyk who are scoring a ton over their career best but galley thinks he s paul coffey puts scoring ahead of defending and fedyk has tailed off big time eklund was a big question mark this year and was coming off injuries points in games is not bad at all and recently he s been a huge factor in the wins they ve gotten eklund has never had a point a game season in his career his production is very typical for him how does he qualify as a disappointment if anything he s a surprise my choice would be roussel if i went strictly by what was expected of players but i never thought that he had what it takes to be a goalie my biggest disappointment is bill dineen i thought that he was going to be the perfect coach for this young team instead he s made too many bad moves and imho has cost them enough games to keep them out of the playoffs this year any coach that thinks putting eric lindros at the point on power plays is a bright idea needs to go back to coaching school pete clark jr rsh flyers contact and mailing list owner
rec.sport.hockey	flyers notes the flyers team that can beat any team on any night showed up at the spectrum sunday night and dominated the maple leafs thoroughly en route to a shutout tommy soderstrom will get credit for the shutout but he barely broke a sweat until the third period as the flyers defense kept the leafs from mounting any serious attack injuries pelle eklund is day to day with a bruised thigh roster moves jason bowen was added to the lineup for his first nhl game jason was the flyers second pick in the first round th overall of the entry draft years old lbs in games with the tri city americans he had goals assists and pim he plays left wing and defense he played defense in this game although bobby taylor said that bill dineen was planning to use him up front as well andre faust was returned to hershey he actually left after the second period of the kings game flew to albany got the game tying goal in a bears ot win and played again for hershey sunday night lines fedyk lindros recchi beranek brind amour dineen lomakin butsayev conroy acton brown galley mcgill yushkevich cronin carkner hawgood bowen tommy soderstrom in goal acton replaced lomakin in the rd period game summary if the flyers played like this every night they d be in the playoffs this year the flyers hit everything that moved they created scoring chance after scoring chance they snuffed out everything that the leafs tried to do jason bowen made a good play on his first nhl shift that almost created a goal he had the puck in the top of the left offensive circle all alone but instead of taking the shot he found brind amour crashing the net on the other side a perfect pass and a good shot across daren puppa s body should have been a goal but puppa made a great save reading the play garry galley gave the maple leafs th ranked power play the first chance when he hooked doug gilmour at the flyers lowly st ranked penalty killing unit was almost flawless the entire game and set the tone on this kill the maple leafs got almost nothing but long unscreened shots and the defense swept away every rebound after the power play the flyers got a goal on an ugly play rod brind amour gave the puck to greg hawgood at the right point and he sent a drive at the net puppa made the save and kicked the rebound right into the feet of josef beranek and bob rouse who were wrestling in the slot beranek was able to get his stick on the puck and push it out to dineen who was skating into the slot from the right circle and he lifted a backhander over puppa for a flyers lead at the flyers kept the pressure on and puppa was the only leaf keeping the flyers from building on their lead for a while eventually things settled down and defense prevailed each team got an occasional scoring chance but the goalies were strong bowen started giving some lindros like checks in his own corners then lindros who was looking to avenge a hit foligno gave him thought he had a chance to even the score he had foligno lined up at center ice leaned into him and rode him into the center ice boards the only problem was that foligno was a little far from the boards and mike mister mcgeough felt that it warranted a boarding call at the leafs couldn t get anything going on the power play as the flyers were very aggressive for a change on the kill with time running out in the period recchi carried through the neutral zone and handed to lindros as they approached the leaf s blue line they were in a crowd with wendell clark and jamie macoun lindros tried a backhand pass to recchi through the feet of macoun that connected to recchi but then clark checked recchi off the puck macoun then tried to clear but it was weak and went right to mcgill who had manned the point he drove it from just inside the blue line macoun got his stick on it and deflected it past his own goalie at shots were flyers in the period the flyers finally got their first chance on the power play when dave andreychuk tripped up rod brind amour in his offensive zone during the power play the flyers got cheated a little when the puck popped up into the air and eric gloved it down but mcgeough thought it hit his stick above his head we could see from our seats at the other end of the ice that it only hit his glove and the replay confirmed but the faceoff went to the other end as time was running out in the advantage lindros found galley with a pass across the goal mouth but puppa made the save the rebound kicked back to the right corner where recchi picked it up passed it out to eric crashing through the right circle and eric one timed past puppa at with the assist recchi moves past bobby clarke s season the second best one season total for a flyer at eric moves up to th all time in flyers rookie scoring with points mike eastwood took down al conroy at to give the flyers another chance on the power play not much pressure before garry galley ended the power play with a slash at not much happened on the on although the leafs had most of the possession the flyers smothered the leafs short power play tempers flared a little at bowen and pearson got roughing minors keith acton got a bloody face dave mcllwain then took a dive and got greg hawgood a hooking minor at to set up a on the replay showed that hawgood s stick stopped making contact with mcllwain long before he spun around and fell again the flyers smothered the leafs power play led by dimitri yushkevich bowen made a thundering hit when he came out of the box on pearson berehowski tried to perplex everybody with his sloooowball he had the puck at the point and just trickled a pass down the slot he made all the flyers look silly as nobody could get a stick on it and it got to gilmour at the side of the net but soderstrom stoned him the flyers picked things up offensively after the kill was over but didn t get anything home shots were flyers the flyers were content with the goal lead in the third period and they decided that if tommy wanted a shutout he was going to have to work for it a little the flyers got most of the scoring chances in the first or so minutes of the period but couldn t get past puppa then the leafs got tired of lindros making road kill out of them and tempers flared each for doug gilmour and lindros unsportsmanlike conduct and each for glenn anderson and mcgill roughing all at terry carkner then took a kneeing penalty at on gilmour again the flyers smothered the leafs power play at about the minute mark dave andreychuk got a shot away from his left circle that got through soderstrom the puck was rolling on it s side and as luck would have it it turned away from the net instead of turning towards it think of how a rolling quarter inevitably starts to lean one way or the other seconds later rod brind amour tripped up gilmour at to give the leafs another chance on the power play on the advantage after soderstrom stoned andreychuk while lying down andreychuk got the rebound through soderstrom but from behind the net and it went straight through and was swept away by one of his defensemen they kept the pressure on but soderstrom was equal and preserved the shutout recchi cross checked ken baumgartner to get tempers hot and start a brawl at no punches thrown recchi got the initial minor krushelnyski baumgartner and lindros each got roughing minors at rouse and beranek expressed their mutual dislike for each other and got each for slashing to set up another on mike eastwood shoved down ryan mcgill in the flyers zone as they were battling for the puck and while mcgill was down he ran his stick across mcgill s face the flyers were not happy with that at all al conroy paired up with berehowski and started throwing punches upward well al held his own much to the delight of the crowd each got a couple punches in before going down in a head and al got a standing o penalties eastwood cross check game clark carkner each berehowski and conroy each fighting at so a major penalty for the rest of the game for the flyers the had no interest in stting on the lead hawgood galley and brind amour played catch until hawgood found dineen all alone in the left circle he controlled the puck and blasted it past puppa at that was all the fireworks tommy soderstrom would not face another shot puppa did but kept the flyers off the board flyers shots were flyers in the rd probably the strongest game i ve seen from the flyers since the all star break shutout number for soderstrom all since tied for nd most in the nhl but he s played fewer games than belfour or the goalie i can t remember that he s tied with next up it s the winnipeg selannes tuesday night in winnipeg the flyers cannot be eliminated if they win but a loss coupled with an islander win that night in washington would be the official end flyers up to points on the season in games last year they had points in games under so they need at least points in their last games to improve on that only by percentage points under in is better than under in tragic number holds at points with games left the tragic number for th is points i watched the rangers blow a third period lead at home to lose before i finished this up why points instead of well the flyers will win the tie breaker if they catch them whereas the islanders win tie breakers against the flyers and so need only a tie the rangers could crumble down the stretch as they play the devils the pens twice the flyers and finish up with games against the caps so i guess th place could be the goal for the team to focus on flyers team record watch eric lindros goals assists points rookie records club record goals club record points eric lindros dave poulin brian propp brian propp ron flockhart ron flockhart dave poulin eric lindros bill barber pelle eklund mark recchi goals assists points club record goals club record points reggie leach bobby clarke tim kerr mark recchi tim kerr bobby clarke mark recchi bill barber rick macliesh bobby clarke bill barber rick macliesh reggie leach flyers career years player points best prior season mark recchi penguins rod brind amour flyers garry galley kings brent fedyk red wings that s all for now pete clark jr rsh flyers contact and mailing list owner
rec.sport.hockey	strange phenomens in nhl was team leaders in in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes in apr ists ists ca dchhabra stpl ists ca deepak chhabra writes implicitly you are assuming that goals scored against winnipeg with selanne on the ice can be blamed on him roger he is a forward winnipeg has a lousy defensive record anyway let s put it another way john cullen s is terrible what s your excuse for him that his powerplay points don t count neither do selanne s are you comparing cullen to salami i would say that that is valid if winnipeg is such a lousy defensive team then why the hell does salami stand around the other team s blueline when the puck is in his own end i thought that he was comparing cullen to teemu sel nne i always thought that salami is some sort of sausage but if you dear roger are able to see salami on the ice playing hockey i don t know what to do but you surely should do something and very quickly maybe you think that if you keep on talking some rubbish after some time everybody will consider it to be really true you should take care of your leafs they surely need it more what he does best is score so i refer you to my comment above some of our finnish friends who have watched him play claim that he can play a solid two way game i would have to say that this style of contribution would be more conducive to winning or don t you think so at least we have seen him playing as it is now selanne is a grandstanding goal suck did you see the way he parades around with his arms outstretched after scoring a goal you would think the messiah had returned during the latest philly game the leaf players didn t parade philly crunched them maybe you need some more two way players who can score too cordially as always rm roger maynard maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca just cordially hannu go jets go teemu teppo tappara canadiens blackhawks
rec.sport.hockey	re trade rumor montreal ottawa phillie in article mweintr auvm american edu mweintr auvm american edu says also sprach slegge kean ucs mun ca tsn sportsdesk just reported that the ottawa sun has reported that montreal will send players million including vin damphousse and brian bellows to phillidelphia phillie will send eric lindros to ottawa and ottawa will give it s first round pick to montreal if this is true it will most likely depend on whether or not ottawa gets to choose st overall can ottawa afford lindros salary personally i can t see philli giving up lindros for anything they didn t give away that much to quebec just to trade him away again not to mention that lindros seems to be a huge draw in phillie and that he represents a successful future for the franchise ottawa may be better off taking the players from montreal for the pick stephen legge slegge kean ucs munc ca two things didn t the trade deadline pass two weeks ago the flyers would never ever ever give up lindros simple as that with soderstrom and roussel why the hell would the flyers want to pick up an older and slumping roy byw i could come up with a group of players they d trade for but they wouldn t be from the same team go flyers cup in mike yes rush marillion elp genesis king crimson dream theater beatles mike weintraub aka jvi on irc courageous convictions mweintr american edu will drag the dream jedi wave cerf net into existence the american university washington dc rush not limbaugh go philadelphia flyers vancouver canucks philadelphia phillies john e runski jer psuvm
rec.sport.hockey	re this year s biggest and worst opinion in article c zcii ftn watserv uwaterloo ca smale healthy uwaterloo ca bryan smale writes i was thinking about who on each of the teams were the mvps biggest surprises and biggest disappointments this year now these are just my observations and are admittedly lacking because i have not had an opportunity to see all the teams the same amount anyway mvp most valuable player to his team both in terms of points and in terms of leadership can t win without him biggest surprise the player who rose above expectation the player that may have raised the level of his game to a new height even if that new level doesn t necessarily warrant an allstar berth includes those players who at the outset of the season may not even have been in the team s plans biggest disappointment the player from whom we expected more e g i picked denis savard in montreal because with the new emphasis on offence brought by demers shouldn t savard have done better team biggest biggest team mvp surprise disappointment boston bruins oates d sweeney wesley buffalo sabres lafontaine mogilny audette jinx calgary flames roberts reichel petit chicago blackhawks roenick ruuttu goulet detroit red wings yzerman chaisson kozlov edmonton oilers manson buchberger mellanby hartford whalers sanderson cassells corriveau los angeles kings robitaille donnelly hrudey minnesota north stars modano tinordi not expected back broten montreal canadiens muller lebeau savard new jersey devils stevens semak maclean new york islanders turgeon king finally marois new york rangers messier kovalev bourque ottawa senators maciver baker jelinek philadelphia flyers lindros recchi fedyk galley eklund pittsburgh penguins lemieux tocchet even for him jagr quebec nordiques sakic ricci kovalenko pearson san jose sharks kisio gaudreau maley st louis blues shanahan c joseph ron sutter tampa bay lightening bradley bradley creighton kasper toronto maple leafs gilmour potvin ellett anderson vancouver canucks bure nedved finally momesso washington capitals hatcher bondra cote elynuik winnipeg jets selanne selanne druce as i mentioned up top these are my impressions from where i sit i would welcome any opinions from those fans nearer their teams in other words anywhere away from a toronto newspaper bryan
rec.sport.hockey	realignment in well here it is nhl in the year i got these from a very reliable source in a dream some years ago and although i initially thought i had just been taking too many too strong drugs now it seems the realization has really begun you can see the league has already started to move to this direction the walt disney conference anaheim mighty chipmunks franchise name to be changed after each new la kings hockey movie la flames we ve seen some of that san jose sharks san diego bruins tijuana red wings detroit s hockey team will follow its car industry dallas stars houston oilers texas rangers seattle canucks the norm green conference alabama white hawks biloxi blues tampa bay lightning miami blades helsinki jets you ve heard them starting getting used to the anthem montreal quebecois sp there will be no canada atlanta devils orlando penquins key west islanders hartford whalers the whalers will never move huh palm beach capitals now that the anahaim team is becomming real i m really beginning to believe the rest of the message i m sure the future will turn you into believers too after the nhl will abandond ice rinks it s so expensive to cool down the rinks in the subtropics and the locals hardly know what ice is anyway nhl will become a roller skating hockey league that way it can create more public interest in the game when local supporteres can play the game in their back yards i hope i m just out of my mind there won t really be a disney team in anaheim will there the stars aren t really moving
rec.sport.hockey	nhl swedes stats april scoring stats for the swedish nhl players april mats sundin watch most points during a season kent nilsson calgary flames mats naslund montreal canadiens mats sundin quebec nordiques hakan loob calgary flames kent nilsson calgary flames kent nilsson calgary flames most goals during a season hakan loob calgary flames kent nilsson calgary flames kent nilsson calgary flames tomas sandstrom la kings mats naslund montreal canadiens mats sundin quebec nordiques most assists during a season kent nilsson calgary flames mats naslund montreal canadiens borje salming toronto maple leafs mats sundin quebec nordiques kent nilsson calgary flames borje salming toronto maple leafs thomas steen winnipeg jets ulf samuelsson watch most penalty minutes during a season ulf samuelsson pittsburgh penguins through ulf samuelsson pittsburgh penguins ulf samuelsson pittsburgh penguins kjell samuelsson philadelphia flyers ulf samuelsson hartford whalers ulf samuelsson hartford whalers borje salming toronto maple leafs rl rk name team j ps ht wt born g a pts pl comment mats sundin que c ulf dahlen min rw thomas steen win c johan garpenlov sjs lw fredrik olausson win d tomas sandstrom lak lw per erik eklund phi lw injured calle johansson was d nicklas lidstrom det d tommy sjodin min d ulf samuelsson pit d mikael andersson tbl lw michael nylander hfd lw roger johansson cgy d jan erixon nyr lw peter andersson nyr d kjell samuelsson pit d tommy albelin njd d per djoos nyr d binghampton niclas andersson que lw halifax thomas forslund cgy lw salt lake patrik carnback mon lw injured patrik kjellberg mon lw fredericton rl rank last week rk rank j jersey number ps position born mm dd yy g goals a assists pts points pl points scored since last posted list goalie stats name team j ps ht wt born tommy soderstrom phi g t o t a l mm dd vs res r w l t sh sv gp mp ga gaa sog sv sv so a pit l chi w tbl l pit l was t lak w sjs w cgy l edm t was w nyr w edm w cgy t bos w det l bos l nyi l hfd w pit l nyr t ott w mtl t njd l njd l cgy t van w min l det pit w was w njd l nyi l was w min w pit l njd l nyr w que l lak l tor w res result sh shots sv saves gp games played mp minutes played ga goals against gaa goals against average sog shots on goal sv saves sv saving percentage so shutouts a assists staffan staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson se r s h contact for swedish hockey
rec.sport.hockey	re spelling error on the stanley cup r turgeo oz plymouth edu writes i was reading a newspaper tidbit that mentioned that there is a grammatical error on the stanley cup this newspaper the union leader manchester new hampshire stated that one of the years that the new york islanders won the cup the printing on the actual cup stated new york ilanders can anyone verify this i forgot the exact year that this supposedly occured any die hard islander fans know about this the reason why i am asking is because the paper is not very reliable we call it the union mis leader randy plymouth state college r turgeo oz plymouth edu speaking of spelling errors on the cup i wonder if the h in pittsburgh made it to the cup you know how funny people can be about spelling pittsburgh warren arbogast darden visual communications with miles behind them university of virginia and more to go
rec.sport.hockey	re too many europeans in nhl rauser fraser sfu ca richard john rauser writes ten years ago the number of europeans in the nhl was roughly a quarter of what it is now going into the season the numbers of euros on nhl teams have escalated to the following stats canadians americans europeans please note that these numbers are rounded off and taken from the top players on each of the teams my source is the vancouver sun here s the point there are far too many europeans in the nhl i am sick of watching a game between an american and a canadian team let s say the red wings and the canucks and seeing names like bure konstantinov and borshevshky is this north america or isn t it toronto detriot quebec and edmonton are particularly annoying but the numbers of euros on other teams is getting worse as well is the answer as simple as that you dislike russians i live in vancouver and if i hear one more word about pavel bure the russian rocket i will completely throw up as it is now every time i see the canucks play i keep hoping someone will cross check bure into the plexiglass so hard they have to carry him out on a stretcher by the way i m not a canucks fan to begin with okay the stretcher remark was a little carried away but the point is that i resent nhl owners drafting all these europeans instead of canadians and some americans it denies young canadians the opportunity to play in their north american league and instead gives it to europeans who aren t even better hockey players it s all hype this european mystique is sickening but until nhl owners get over it canadian and american players will continue to have to fight harder to get drafted into their own league with the numbers of euros in the nhl escalating the problem is clearly only getting worse and where would canadian hockey be today without the europeans dont say that the european influence on the league has been all bad for the game i mean look at the way you play these days less fights and more hockey imho canadian hockey has had a positive curve of development since the s when the game was more brute than beauty i m all for the creation of a european hockey league and let the bures and selannes of the world play on their own continent oh look you don t like finns either i just don t want them on mine too bad almost all of you northamericans originates from europe hmmm and what kind of a name is rauser doesn t sound very canadian to me ps when analyzing teams like italy france and great britain you find that a lot of their players are canadians with double citizenship ds richard j rauser you have no idea what you re doing rauser sfu ca oh don t worry about that we re professional wni outlaws we do this for a living remember no matter where you go there you are dr banzai l l tomas nopp tel ellemtel telecom systems labs fax box email tomas nopp eua ericsson se s alvsjo snailmail
rec.sport.hockey	wanted mail order hockey equipment could anyone recommend a mail order distributor for hockey equipment thanks in advance wayne wayne e westerhold wester dg rtp dg com data general corporation research triangle park nc
rec.sport.hockey	re too many europeans in nhl in article rauser sfu ca rauser fraser sfu ca richard john rauser writes ten years ago the number of europeans in the nhl was roughly a quarter of what it is now going into the season the numbers of euros on nhl teams have escalated to the following stats canadians americans europeans please note that these numbers are rounded off and taken from the top players on each of the teams my source is the vancouver sun here s the point there are far too many europeans in the nhl i am sick of watching a game between an american and a canadian team let s say the red wings and the canucks and seeing names like bure konstantinov and borshevshky is this north america or isn t it toronto detriot quebec and edmonton are particularly annoying but the numbers of euros on other teams is getting worse as well from where i come from in canada borshevsky sounds more canadian than smith anyways crawl back into the hole you crawled out of the nba doesn t care where they get basketball players from major league baseball doesn t give a damn where they get baseball players from except cuba that is canada is in no imminent danger of being overtaken as the primary supplier of players sweden finland the czech republic and slovakia are all relatively small countries and cannot really produce players at a greater rate than they are already producing them and the potential influx from the former soviet union is severely blunted because the system has been raided and is starved for finances and will take a decade or two to recover and become a real threat and the us will just maintain its slow increase canada should continue to supply plus of the top hockey players in the world for the forseeable future besides we need the european hockey market if hockey is to take its rightful place besides soccer as the two predominant world sports and since soccer is essentially boring unlike hockey i live in vancouver and if i hear one more word about pavel bure the russian rocket i will completely throw up as it is now every time i see the canucks play i keep hoping someone will cross check bure into the plexiglassso hard they have to carry him out on a stretcher by the way i m not a canucks fan to begin with okay the stretcher remark was a little carried away but the point is that i resent nhl owners drafting all these europeans instead of canadians and some americans it denies young canadians the opportunity to play in their north american league and instead gives it to europeans who aren t even better hockey players it s all hype this european mystique is sickening but until nhl owners get over it canadian and american players will continue to have to fight harder to get drafted into their own league with the numbers of euros in the nhl escalating the problem is clearly only getting worse canadians are under no threat the european numbers will soon saturate if they haven t already and by the time russia comes online again the nhl should be a world league and there will be many more teams to stock and many more jobs for canadian hockey players in the near team the percentage of canadians will mostly decline because of americans not because of europeans i m all for the creation of a european hockey league and let the bures and selannes of the world play on their own continent i just don t want them on mine crawl into a hole and die gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re too many europeans in nhl in article apr pasteur berkeley edu daniell cory berkeley edu daniel lyddy writes you know you re absolutely right i think we should round up all those players of european descent and ship em back to where they came from let s see with whom should we start i dunno lemieux hmmm sounds like he has french blood in him hey france is part of europe send that euro blooded boy back don t you americans study history the french settled in north america as early or before the british lemieux can probably trace back his north american heritage back a lot further than most of us gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re lindros will be traded in article apr r node hub org shadow r node hub org jay chu writes true rumor fact a big three way deal eric lindros going to ottawa senators and senators get mill from montreal montreal gets alexander daigle the first round pick from senators philly gets damphousse bellow patrick roy and a draft pick another person incapable of rational thought gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re too many europeans in nhl in article rauser sfu ca rauser fraser sfu ca richard john rauser writes ten years ago the number of europeans in the nhl was roughly a quarter of what it is now going into the season the numbers of euros on nhl teams have escalated to the following stats canadians americans europeans xenophobic trash deleted i m all for the creation of a european hockey league and let the bures and selannes of the world play on their own continent i just don t want them on mine if you re going to go to those extremes i guess you d better start packing because unless you re a native north american this isn t your continent either lori
rec.sport.hockey	nhl summary parse results for games played mon april hartford ny rangers first period hartford cunneyworth janssens greig ny rangers graves turcotte zubov second period ny rangers kovalev turcotte graves hartford sanderson cassels pp ny rangers amonte andersson vanbiesbrouck pp third period ny rangers m messier amonte andersson hartford sanderson cassels sh hartford nylander ladouceur hartford verbeek zalapski hartford power play special goals pp sh total scorer g a pts cassels cunneyworth greig janssens ladouceur nylander sanderson verbeek zalapski ny rangers power play scorer g a pts amonte andersson graves kovalev messier m turcotte vanbiesbrouck zubov
rec.sport.hockey	re what was ray doing daveb thewho east sun com dave brewer writes in yesterday s fracus between rob ray and brent hughes was it the camera angle or was ray actually punching hughes where it appeared he was punching him for those that didn t see the game it was several inches below the belt and he punched him there quite a few times dreadful also why did poulin get four minutes i ve been watching playing hockey for a good long time now and i ve seen players with questionable tactics but never have i seen what ray did on sunday this guy gets my all time loser award it s one thing to repeatedly cross check someone to the back of the neck when they are down it s another thing to have a fist fight with someones balls ray should be thrown out of the league what an a hole steve
rec.sport.hockey	nhl results for games played nhl results for games played standings patrick adams norris smythe tm w l t pt tm w l t pt tm w l t pt tm w l t pt xpit ymon ydet yvan was ybos ychi ycal nj yque ytor yla nyi ybuf stl ywin nyr har min edm phl ott tb sj x clinched division title y clinched playoff berth hartford whalers new york rangers st period har cunneyworth janssens greig nyr graves turcotte zubov nd period nyr kovalev turcotte graves har sanderson cassels pp nyr amonte andersson vanbiesbrouck pp rd period nyr m messier amonte andersson har sanderson cassels sh har nylanders ladouceur har verbeek zalapski powerplay opportunities whalers of rangers of shots on goal whalers rangers hartford whalers gosselin shots saves new york rangers vanbiesbrouck shots saves att spike
rec.sport.hockey	usenet hockey draft week standings here are the standings after the april update i ll be leaving for japan in hours and i won t be back until april consequently i will not post the week results until april email sent between april and april will be processed using the numbers available april andrew usenet hockey draft standings week posn team pts proj cash last posn dave wessels gilles carmel bob hill the awesome oilers seppo kemppainen mak the knife paranjape hillside raiders jan stein rangers of destiny this years model tapio repo frank s big fish the underachievers on thin ice lindros losers littlest giants go flames mopar muscle men die penguin bandwaggoners samuel lau calgary alberta general accounting office migods menschen boomer s boys delaware wombats wellsy s buttheads dec nh rocky mountain high fife flyers gerald olchowy fluide glacial gaoler smegheads the young and the skateless artic storm sam his dogs neural netters youngbucs soft swedes jeff horvath yan the man loke milton keynes kings hamster from hoboken le fleur de lys ice legion simmonac kuehn crushers the finnish force streaks legion of hoth goaldingers grant marven bemybaby t c overachievers skriko wolves bozrah bruins brian bergman lippe randy coulman lamp lighters dave snell steven and mark dream team houdini s magicians real bad toe jam rec sport hockey choices iowa hockeyes buffalo soldiers indianapolis bennies bloom county all stars tom phil and kev s karma dudes aik exiles doug bowles bruins smithw the great pumpkin shooting seamen frank worthless non invisible inc brad gibson chubby checkers plp fools john zupancic staffan axelsson david wong kortelaisen kovat chocolate rockets ken decruyenaere cougarmania garryola derrill s dastardly dozen no namers the campi machine gary bergman fan club fisher dirtbags kodiaks arsenal maple leafs the kamucks bsc oranienburg bloodgamers ellis islanders mombasa mosquitos edelweiss zachmans wingers wormtown woosbags dirty white socks hurricane andrew larry votenooct bruce s rented mules king suke teem kanada bjoern leaguen frank s follies neil younger het schot is hard psv dartmouth pond slime stanford ice hawks spuds mark sanders oklahoma stormchasers timo ojala nesbitt aye carumba kokudo keikaku bunnies blue talon apricot fuzzfaces haral garys team late night with david letterman arctic circles the lost poots seattle pftb boutch dirty rotten puckers flying kiwis cluster buster scott glenn dree hobbs go bruins le groupe mi team gold closet boy s boys gary bill pens dynasty mckees rocks rockers tim rogers andy y f wong buttered waffles bob s blues princeton canucks go habs go wembley lostweekenders wild hearted sons einstein s rock band tap goddess of fermentation hunters collectors dr joel fleishman furleys furies convex stars les nordiques my team hubert s hockey homeboys book em danno s bushbabies riding the pine sundogs jeff nimeroff slap shot marco daryl turner the dreamers east city jokers flowers satan s choice the leafs rule pierre mailhot voyageurs spinal tap san jose mahi mahi stimpy adg zeta jeff bachovchin bulldogs lana inc big bad bruins mike mac cormack sydney ns can darse billings chappel s chumps jimparker republican dirty tricksters enforcers absolut lehigh yellow plague dr d and the s o d bunch of misfits ninja turtles great expectations cherry bombers henry s bar b q robyns team team melville umpire life acadien kaufbeuren icebreakers firebirds jayson s kinky pucks cobra s killers outlaws kuta papercuts killer apes darman s dragons roger smith those st few weeks hurt thundering herd ikea wholesale believe it or dont fred mckim hurricane creeping death knee injuries the club crazy euros frack attack todd s turkeys ryan s renegades cafall and crew pig vomit ice strykers fighting geordies cdn stuck in alabama ship s way swillbellies oz chris of death banko s beer rangers ny flames laubsters ii dayton bomber zipper heads ninja bunnies joliet inmates widefield white wolves daves team great scott south carolina tiger paws sandy s sabres florida tech burgh team the ice holes leos blue chips for xtc roadrunners mudville kings redliners pat phillips new jersey rob stewart clamen demon spawn sunnyvale storm allez les blues up for sale hockey club petes picks rinaco brenz revenge dinamo riga andrew scott andrew idacom hp com hp idacom telecom operation ext during the roman era was considered old
rec.sport.hockey	usenet hockey draft week price list here is the price list for the week april to april andrew buy sell pts team player pit mario lemieux buf pat lafontaine bos adam oates det steve yzerman wpg teemu selanne tor doug gilmour nyi pierre turgeon buf alexander mogilny phi mark recchi la luc robitaille que mats sundin pit kevin stevens stl craig janney van pavel bure chi jeremy roenick que joe sakic pit rick tocchet stl brett hull bos joe juneau tor dave andreychuk pit ron francis mtl vincent damphousse min mike modano wpg phil housley cgy theoren fleury buf dale hawerchuk mtl kirk muller nyr mark messier stl brendan shanahan det dino ciccarelli la jari kurri pit jaromir jagr mtl brian bellows wsh peter bondra hfd geoff sanderson cgy robert reichel que steve duchesne det paul coffey det sergei fedorov tb brian bradley phi rod brind amour pit larry murphy hfd andrew cassels hfd pat verbeek la tony granato wsh mike ridley nyi steve thomas mtl stephan lebeau wsh dale hunter que mike ricci bos ray bourque wsh kevin hatcher sj kelly kisio van cliff ronning stl jeff brown tor nikolai borschevsky nj claude lemieux min dave gagner min russ courtnall nyr tony amonte van murray craven la jimmy carson cgy gary suter min ulf dahlen van geoff courtnall bos dmitri kvartalnov wsh michal pivonka nyi derek king nyi benoit hogue que owen nolan chi steve larmer nj alexander semak nyr mike gartner stl nelson emerson chi chris chelios phi eric lindros wsh al iafrate van trevor linden la mike donnelly wsh dmitri khristich pit joe mullen cgy joe nieuwendyk nj stephane richer wpg alexei zhamnov wpg thomas steen que andrei kovalenko van petr nedved nyr adam graves hfd zarley zalapski det ray sheppard tor glenn anderson sj johan garpenlov ott norm maciver mtl mike keane pit shawn mceachern la rob blake la wayne gretzky phi garry galley phi brent fedyk nyi pat flatley cgy sergei makarov nj bernie nicholls det steve chiasson chi steve smith que scott young det paul ysebaert nyr sergei nemchinov nj valeri zelepukin wsh pat elynuik tb john tucker phi kevin dineen van greg adams wpg darrin shannon nyr darren turcotte nj scott stevens chi christian ruuttu van dixon ward wpg fredrik olausson nyr ed olczyk wpg keith tkachuk nyi jeff norton tor john cullen van anatoli semenov cgy al macinnis bos stephen leach chi brent sutter mtl denis savard hfd terry yake nj john maclean wsh sylvain cote edm petr klima edm shayne corson la tomas sandstrom edm craig simpson mtl gilbert dionne nyi vladimir malakhov bos dave poulin stl kevin miller la alexei zhitnik que martin rucinsky wpg evgeny davydov wsh kelly miller edm doug weight edm dave manson hfd patrick poulin chi michel goulet phi pelle eklund min mark tinordi mtl mathieu schneider cgy paul ranheim edm todd elik bos vladimir ruzicka ott sylvain turgeon tor dave ellett det niklas lidstrom det bob probert nj peter stastny nyr esa tikkanen ott brad shaw tor wendel clark buf yuri khmylev van sergio momesso ott bob kudelski nyr brian leetch nj bobby holik tor rob pearson min mike mcphee nyr alexei kovalev tb adam creighton edm zdeno ciger la corey millen chi dirk graham tor peter zezel bos ted donato que valery kamensky mtl gary leeman det keith primeau buf wayne presley min neal broten bos steve heinze phi josef beranek chi stephane matteau buf richard smehlik tor dmitri mironov nyi brian mullen phi dmitri yushkevich chi brian noonan edm scott mellanby sj pat falloon stl igor korolev nyr james patrick buf petr svoboda ott mark lamb tb mikael andersson nyi scott lachance edm kevin todd wsh bob carpenter tor bill berg wpg sergei bautin mtl benoit brunet nyi david volek hfd mikael nylander min brent gilchrist nyr phil bourque nyi ray ferraro hfd yvon corriveau edm martin gelinas det jim hiller nyi darius kasparaitis phi andrei lomakin buf donald audette tb roman hamrlik sj mark pederson pit martin straka nj janne ojanen ott tomas jelinek chi joe murphy nyr peter andersson tb steve kasper bos cam neely min bobby smith sj ray whitney hfd robert petrovicky buf viktor gordijuk que mikhail tatarinov tor joe sacco sj peter ahola chi rob brown bos glen murray hfd tim kerr wsh reggie savage stl vitali prokhorov la robert lang edm shaun van allen bos jozef stumpel min dan quinn pit bryan fogarty det viacheslav kozlov tb stan drulia min brian propp mtl olav petrov wsh jason woolley nj claude vilgrain van igor larionov tb brent gretzky ott alexei yashin que peter forsberg edm dean mcammond wsh brian sakic wsh randy burridge mtl patrick kjellberg cgy cory stillman chi sergei krivokrasov buf jason dawe andrew scott andrew idacom hp com hp idacom telecom operation ext during the roman era was considered old
rec.sport.hockey	usenet playoff pool as i ve mentioned in the rules posting i will be out of town until the day before the entry deadline so i won t be able to respond to your messages until april i would be grateful if someone could repost the rules and instructions for the playoff pool sometime next week for the benefit of those who missed the first two postings thanks andrew scott andrew idacom hp com hp idacom telecom operation ext during the roman era was considered old
rec.sport.hockey	re too many europeans in nhl in article rauser sfu ca rauser fraser sfu ca richard john rauser writes here s the point there are far too many europeans in the nhl i am sick of watching a game between an american and a canadian team let s say the red wings and the canucks and seeing names like bure konstantinov and borshevshky is this north america or isn t it toronto detriot quebec and edmonton are particularly annoying but the numbers of euros on other teams is getting worse as well i m sick too watching all american names like gretzky etc which names you accept sitting bull and dances with wolves it is north america what are you doing here jyri
rec.sport.hockey	tps will stay on the top mighty ones get mightier tps the finnish champions are getting still stronger i just heard some news according to which tps has acquired the next finnish hockey superstar jere lehtinen from kiekko espoo there are also some rumours about erik kakko reipas and marko jantunen kalpa being traded to tps both of this players are currently on the finnish olympic team i think that jantunen is drafted to the nhl too btw is juha yl nen centre hpk drafted by the jets during last year he has reached the top level among finnish centres he had very good playoff games against tps hannu go jets go teemu teppo tappara canadiens blackhawks
rec.sport.hockey	personal to ulf samuellsson dear ulf would you possibly consider helpimontreal canadiens fans everywhere by throwing a knee check in the direction of denis savard during your upcoming game against montreal we just can t seem to win with him thanx alot pete h pete harper baby baby don t you hesitate cause i just can t wait patchman wpi wpi edu lady once you get me down on my knees or then you can do what you please u harper jake wpi edu come on and love me skid row come on and love me
rec.sport.hockey	division by zero error in jack nickalus tournament golf i was playing this golf game and something interesting happened on the th hole i drove the ball down the fairway when the ball was in mid flight the game completely froze a couple seconds later the screen went completely black with an error message in large bubble letters that said division by zero i thought it was funny considering i am a computer programmer and i had never seen an error like this on an actual video game system like sega or nintendo or even atari or intellevision years ago oh yeah after the message there was also what must have been an address in hexadecimal i forget the exact hex code that was given has this happened to anyone else it must have my game shouldn t have been the only one to do this thanks randy psc r turgeo oz plymouth edu
rec.sport.hockey	observations on the lindros trade like ottawa would be stupid enough to get lindros why do you think quebec traded him lindros would go on personal strike again maybe i should talk to ottawa mgmt about arranging such a trade on that xenophobe thankfully nobody agreed with him publicly maybe we should look at baseball the supposed american pasttime sp look at all the damn latin americans playing there they should all be deported they aren t american add sarcasm to taste to roger wow for once we agree i hope this isn t a sign of things to come i ll become a ranting lunatic who talks about nothing but the leafs being the best in the campbell on the rangers i told someone that nothing that happened in the patrick would surprise me anymore i lied how the hell can a team go into washington earn a shutout then come back home and lose to pitiful hartford the absolute pinnacle of mediocrity i can t stand it from what i ve read the goalie is to blame this time as beezer played pretty poorly smith is talking about calling up corey hirsch from binghamton everybody is pointing fingers this is definitely not the same team which wanted to prove itself in washington now nothing that happens in the patrick will surprise me yeah right keith keller let s go rangers let s go quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs next time you go over my head i ll have yours on a platter cmdr benjamin sisko
rec.sport.hockey	re sad day for hockey dvb ick writes foul any illegal contact with the other player or his stick with your body or stick if you get you are out for the game i ve never seen a game where one player has committed penalties something like this would require more attention by the referee unsportsmanlike contact an intentional foul this inlcludes all the current flavours of roughing fighting and boarding if you get two you are thrown out of the game and fined technical foul bad mouthing the ref by player or coach penalty shot is awarded two and you are thrown out of the game besides the penalty shot for one technical if the team gets penalties in a period the opposing team gets a penalty shot for every additional one until the end of the period the victim gets two shots if he she was in the act of shooting when the foul ocured this works well for several reasons first penalty shots are the most exciting thing in hockey right so it follows that the more the better next when the player is setting up for a penalty shot the network can take a commercial finally with only three penalties the network announcers don meredith dick vitale john madden pat summerall and marv levy among others will be able to tell the viewers what happened before the pa announcer says it but you re creating a scoring opportunity where there might not have been one before i can see the relationship between free throws awarded after a certain number of fouls but it s obviously easier to score in basketball there are more opportunities if a basketball team scores points that s at least fifty chances made the average number of shots taken by each team in a hockey game and this is a total guess is probably around and a team is lucky to capitalize on maybe of them you have some good ideas concerning the other penalties but i think that a player should be awarded a penalty shot only when they had a chance to score and was interfered with also later in the post you talked about how boring the nba game you attended was that play was stopped too often wouldn t your penalty shot rule take up more time during a hockey game matt att uva
rec.sport.hockey	re lemieux nhlpa and other thoughts i think that nhlpa is the best video game available now of course many things could be done better but i really appreciate that the names of players are the real ones no matter if it lacks some logos i am still playing it since november leading different teams to the finals and making scorers from the same team compete for the top scoring yesterday i won the title using toronto against hartford games to two i played the playoffs in a games fashion minutes for each period and the best scorer and shooter was gilmour shots if i remember well iskander ayari email iskander ayari loria fr ou ayari loria fr
rec.sport.hockey	re this year s biggest and worst opinion in article apr is morgan com scairns fsg com writes mvp surprise disappointment new york rangers messier kovalev bourque gartner zubov bourque bourque the penguin s gm must laugh his head off every time he thinks of the rangers and this loser scott cairns email scairns fsg com fusion systems group usmail broadway th fl new york new york usa new york ny standard disclaimers apply i hope in the future americans are thought of as a warlike vicious people because then i bet a lot of high schools would pick americans as their mascot jack handey please have a care with phil we liked him a lot in pittsburgh he didn t score a lot if you look at his stats last year but he worked his butt off it was his speed that created opportunities in the offensive zone that allowed the pens to utilize his potential i haven t been paying attention to him this year so i can t say i know what you re objecting to he has been out with injuries though hasn t he and if the offense isn t there there s not much his speed will do for you like i said he created opportunities but he didn t score much i thought the money offered from the rangers was a little high and so did the pens i guess joseph stiehm in article apr is morgan com scairns fsg com writes mvp surprise disappointment new york rangers messier kovalev bourque gartner zubov bourque bourque the penguin s gm must laugh his head off every time he thinks of the rangers and this loser scott cairns email scairns fsg com fusion systems group usmail broadway th fl new york new york usa new york ny standard disclaimers apply i hope in the future americans are thought of as a warlike vicious people because then i bet a lot of high schools would pick americans as their mascot jack handey please have a care with phil we liked him a lot in pittsburgh he didn t score a lot if you look at his stats last year but he worked his butt off it was his speed that created opportunities in the offensive zone that allowed the pens to utilize his potential i haven t been paying attention to him this year so i can t say i know what you re objecting to he has been out with injuries though hasn t he and if the offense isn t there there s not much his speed will do for you like i said he created opportunities but he didn t score much i thought the money offered from the rangers was a little high and so did the pens i guess joseph stiehm
rec.sport.hockey	re too many europeans in nhl in article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes in article apr alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca gerald olchowy writes anyways crawl back into the hole you crawled out of the nba doesn t care where they get basketball players from major league baseball doesn t give a damn where they get baseball players from except cuba that is mlb is perfectly willing to take players from cuba they just have to defect first sort of like the situation used to be with russian czech etc hockey players until the political situation in those countries changed major league baseball has told the blue jays and the expos not to sign oscar linares i think that is his name canada does not have the restrictions against cubans that the us has and other major league teams have told the canadian teams that they would be very unhappy if the expos or the blue jays would do this cubans players would not have to defect to play in canada and could play the home games for the expos and blue jays without any trouble gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re this year s biggest and worst opinion in article apr is morgan com scairns fsg com writes messier is a joke this year bad back not withstanding his play is the reason the rangers will be on the golf course in a couple of weeks gartner is my choice the guy works his butt off every game kovalev no surprise he s played adequately but as bad defensively kovalev is too talented a player to play for roger nielson roger needs players who can t think for themselves and can only skate in straight lines up and down the ice dudley and nielson are the only two coaches bad enough in the league to take talents like mogilny and kovalev and not know how to turn them into bure and selanne as was predicted in preseason perhaps he ll pull an alex mogilny in a couple of years and surprise us then zubov wasn t expected to make it out of the minors this season and owing to the number of injuries has proved to be a very pleasant surprise get muckler as coach and kovalev will look like mogilny the trouble with the rangers is that neil smith went out and got players like messier kovalev and graves who have been schooled in taking the game to their opponent and attacking while hiring coaches who are interested in rope a dope strategies if you want the roger nielsons of the world to be your coach you don t go out and get a mark messier who is an old dog who can t learn new tricks from a known loser and you don t waste your draft picks on players like kovalev gerald gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re too many europeans in nhl in article apr alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca gerald olchowy writes major league baseball has told the blue jays and the expos not to sign oscar linares i think that is his name linares has not defected as i pointed out mlb requires that the player defect first canada does not have the restrictions against cubans that the us has and other major league teams have told the canadian teams that they would be very unhappy if the expos or the blue jays would do this what a surprise as long as the pool of talent is not accessible to all teams mlb won t let a few teams sign it seems perfectly reasonable to me cubans players would not have to defect to play in canada and could play the home games for the expos and blue jays without any trouble except that mlb won t allow it which is all i ever said sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.hockey	re lindros will be traded in apr r node hub org jay chu writes true rumor fact a big three way deal eric lindros going to ottawa senators and senators get mill from montreal montreal gets alexander daigle the first round pick from senators philly gets damphousse bellow patrick roy and a draft pick sheesh the rumor mill strikes again but let s just assume this were true my question is this what would montreal give san jose if the sharks got first pick and took daigle tim irvin
rec.sport.hockey	re sad day for hockey in article pq finn b abyss west sun com dvb ick david van beveren writes no no no since all the penalties fall into three classes there should only be three penalties foul any illegal contact with the other player or his stick with your body or stick if you get you are out for the game unsportsmanlike contact an intentional foul this inlcludes all the current flavours of roughing fighting and boarding if you get two you are thrown out of the game and fined technical foul bad mouthing the ref by player or coach penalty shot is awarded two and you are thrown out of the game besides the penalty shot for one technical if the team gets penalties in a period the opposing team gets a penalty shot for every additional one until the end of the period the victim gets two shots if he she was in the act of shooting when the foul ocured these new rule changes are great however i think that your rules are much too complicated how will the normal average fan be able to count how many fouls a player has and then we would even have to remember the names of the players in order to determine who drew the foul and of course there will have to be new sub positions like the power center who just sits in the slot until the blue of course puck comes near him and the shooting defenseman and the point defenseman finally we ll be able to keep stats on the best and the worst penalty shot takers since almost everyone on the ice will be getting fouled we ll be able to see ulf samuellson sp and tie domi miss penalty shots like crazy keith keller let s go rangers let s go quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs next time you go over my head i ll have yours on a platter cmdr benjamin sisko
rec.sport.hockey	re this year s biggest and worst opinion assist orion oac uci edu assist coordination site writes in article c zcii ftn watserv uwaterloo ca smale healthy uwaterloo ca bryan smale writes mvp biggest biggest suprise disappointment los angeles kings robitaille donnelly hrudey i would have chosen alex zhitnik for biggest suprise they did expect that he would become a great defenseman but i don t think anyone knew that he was going to be this impressive in his rookie year his speed skating ability and puck control is exceptional he is the one to watch on the kings i agree with marty mcsorely and warren rychel running a close second and third i am surprised more people have not noted knickle as the biggest surprise even though i personally do not really rate him well the biggest disappointment has to be carson though this is really unfair since too much was expected of him the second biggest disappointment is melrose with his adolescent handling of the goaltending problems putting hrudey on the bench for a month is just stupid it did not contribute to the team coming out of its slump mvp is surely robitaille dvb
rec.sport.hockey	re new name for the stanley cup in article apr sol ctr columbia edu phoenix startide ctr columbia edu ali lemer writes of course we need new position names for those unable to remember the very complicated hockey terminology old name new name centre the guy in the middle left wing the guy on the left right wing the guy on the right defenceman the guy back there goaltender the guy in the net or cage as my mother calls it referee the guy with the whistle linesman the guy with the arms coach the guy in the suit gm the head guy puck the black thing red line the line in the middle blue line the line on the side crease the place in front of the guy in the net faceoff circle the round thing where they stand slot or point over there must point to accompany term bench the place where they sit penalty box the place where they sit when they re bad mr bettman the guy in the wrong sport mr stein the guy who should be in charge but isn t of course we also need new names for the individual awards and other stuff like the president s cup president s cup the trophy given to the best regular season team hart winner the most valuable player chosen from the guys in the middle the guys on the right the guys on the left the guys back there and the guy in the net though typically given only to the guys in the middle and the guys on the left and on the right norris winner the best guy in the back or the guy who was awarded for something even though he is not one of the guys in the middle or on the left or the right ad nauseum keith keller let s go rangers let s go quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs next time you go over my head i ll have yours on a platter cmdr benjamin sisko
rec.sport.hockey	paul kuryia and canadian world team heard last night that paul kuryia will be playing for the canadian world hockey team this year he was on a local radio station when a friend of the familty called to congratulate him on the invitation meekly paul told the host that he didn t think they wanted it out yet this morning i heard that he is destined to play on a line with lindros and recci unsure of this one if he plays well in this arena he could go or in the draft
rec.sport.hockey	re jets fans hrivnak or tabaracci in article apr wam umd edu giant next pg wam umd edu thundarr writes after seeing hrivnak and tabarraci play who would you prefer to have and how about tyler larter what ever happened to him you know what my answer will be hrivnak the choice is obvious go skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite go braves an effect on you mike patton faith no more go hornets go capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd a prism gatech edu
rec.sport.hockey	re jets fans hrivnak or tabaracci after seeing hrivnak and tabarraci play who would you prefer to have and how about tyler larter what ever happened to him you know what my answer will be hrivnak the choice is obvious ok but have you seen tabaracci play yet in his two starts and his relief effort for beaupre he has looked mighty sharp don t forget the shutout i think he s let in just four goals over eight periods of play i like hrivnak but we might actually have to give some credit to david poile for a change after this trade hopefully if tabaracci starts against the isles tonight i haven t jinxed him frank salvatore fmsalvat eos ncsu edu
rec.sport.hockey	re this year s biggest and worst opinion bryan smale smale healthy uwaterloo ca writes i was thinking about who on each of the teams were the mvps biggest surprises and biggest disappointments this year team biggest biggest team mvp surprise disappointment hartford whalers sanderson cassells corriveau my votes fwiw team mvp pat verbeek he fans on of goal mouth feeds but he still has goals after a terrible start and has been an examplary sp team captain throughout a tough couple of seasons honorable mention nick kypreos and mark janssens probably more appropriate in the unsung heroes category than mvp but kypreos goals pim has been the hardest working player on the team and janssens is underrated as a defensive center and checker i guess i place a greater emphasis on hard work than skill when determining value biggest surprise geoff sanderson he had goals and points last season as a center then moved to left wing and has so far put up goals and points he now has a new whaler record power play goals most all coming from the right wing faceoff circle his garden spot honorable mention andrew cassels and terry yake the kiddie quartet of sanderson poulin nylander and petrovicky have been attracting the most attention but cassels is just and will score close to points this season he has quite nicely assumed the role of number one center on the team and works very well with sanderson yake bounced around the minors for a number of seasons but is still and will put up about goals and points this season yake like sanderson started performing better offensively once he was converted from center to wing although lefty sanderson went to the left wing and righty yake went to the right side biggest disappointment hands down john cullen cullen had a disasterous point season last year his first full season after the trade cullen started the season off of summer back surgery and fell flat on his face appropriate since he spent all of his whaler career flat on his ass and whining about it cullen scored just point on games was a clubhouse malcontent commanded the powerplay to a success percentage with sanderson and sulked his way out of town worst of all his year m contract had three years left to run so no one would give up any more than the nd round draft pick the maple leafs offered to hartford honorable mention steve konroyd also subpar after signing a year m contract eric weinrich who showed flashes of competence but overall has played poorly jim mckenzie who was a much better hockey player two seasons ago than he is now and frank pietrangelo who only seemed to play well when sean burke was out for an extended period and he got to make a number of starts in a row sg a real live hartford whalers season ticket holder steveg cadkey com
rec.sport.hockey	maple leafs update for those leaf fans who are concerned the following players are slated for return on thursday s winnipeg toronto game peter zezel john cullen mark osborne and dave ellett are questionable to return on thursday all regular players who were injured including dimitri mironov should be back for saturday s home game against the flyers
rec.sport.hockey	does the faq crash your newsreader the r s h faq sheet never fails to crash my newsreader the only way i can avoid crashing and restarting the machine is to look at the headers and avoid reading the faq does anyone else have problems reading the faq tim irvin the season is near a merciful end
rec.sport.hockey	testing 
rec.sport.hockey	re canadiens another stanley cup in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard wrote in rauser sfu ca rauser fraser sfu ca richard john rauser writes pereira cam org dean pereira writes with the kind of team montreal has now they can take the cup easily the only problem they have right now is that everyone is trying to steal the show and play alone they need some massive teamwork this is known as the savard syndrome and we are talking denis not serge no team will ever win squat with the likes of denis savard in their lineup they could tell savard to stay home and watch the games on tv if life were so simple savard has not played in three of the last four games and they are still playing like crap montreal s problems run deeper than savard and mouton unfortunately i hope they can get their act together before the playoffs the line up in their game coming up against pittsburgh is said to be the one they re likely to use for the playoffs let s hope they can forget about the nice weather we re having and play hockey paul valin tel bell northern research ltd email pavalin bnr ca p o box station c ottawa ontario canada k y h only my opinions
rec.sport.hockey	re too many europeans in nhl in article rauser sfu ca rauser fraser sfu ca richard john rauser writes here s the point there are far too many europeans in the nhl i am sick of watching a game between an american and a canadian team let s say the red wings and the canucks and seeing names like bure konstantinov and borshevshky is this north america or isn t it toronto detriot quebec and edmonton are particularly annoying but the numbers of euros on other teams is getting worse as well gee you d think winnipeg would be tops on that list what with regulars being european i live in vancouver and if i hear one more word about pavel bure the russian rocket i will completely throw up as it is now every time i see the canucks play i keep hoping someone will cross check bure into the plexiglassso hard they have to carry him out on a stretcher by the way i m not a canucks fan to begin with well being a jet fan i sometimes wish that bure would get knocked silly too nothing serious just enough to keep him out of a game okay the stretcher remark was a little carried away but the point is that i resent nhl owners drafting all these europeans instead of canadians and some americans it denies young canadians the opportunity to play in their north american league and instead gives it to europeans who aren t even better hockey players it s all hype this european mystique is sickening but until nhl owners get over it canadian and american players will continue to have to fight harder to get drafted into their own league in most cases the owners have very little to do with it they give their general managers one order when it comes to the draft find me the best players so that our team will win the stanley cup whether that player is in kindersley saskatchewan or chelyabinsk russia if the gm believes him to be the better player the gm should be drafting him where do you get off calling the nhl their league when referring to canadian players it doesn t belong to them it belongs to the owners the owners can do what they want while a canadian content rule might be enforcable here in canada there is enough doubt that it would be enforcable in the us that the cfl sorry for the football reference didn t even try to push their import ratio rule on the sacromento goldminers increasing the competition for the elite positions in most cases would make players better anyways oh yeah and how many europeans play at the lower levels of professional hockey in north america while there are some that play in the ahl or the ihl where that s an nhl team s primary farm club you don t hear of many europeans playing in the chl the echl or on the secondary farm teams in the ihl ie the jets do have a few russian players in moncton but i don t believe there are any europeans in ft wayne so with all those teams there are plenty of positions for hockey players in north america with the numbers of euros in the nhl escalating the problem is clearly only getting worse i m all for the creation of a european hockey league and let the bures and selannes of the world play on their own continent i just don t want them on mine i m in favour of the nhl being the league for the premier players in the world i ve grown up with europeans playing on my team and some of those players were the among the best in the world from hedberg nilsson and sjoberg to sel nne zhamnov and olausson and all those in between and to come i wouldn t have it any other way daryl turner r s h contact for the winnipeg jets internet umturne ccu umanitoba ca fidonet or please route through tkachuk over to zhamnov up to sel nne he shoots he scores the jets win the cup the jets win the cup essensa for vezina housley for norris sel nne for calder
rec.sport.hockey	re too many europeans in nhl i dunno lemieux hmmm sounds like he has french blood in him hey france is part of europe send that euro blooded boy back don t you americans study history the french settled in north america as early or before the british lemieux can probably trace back his north american heritage back a lot further than most of us friendly jibe mode on don t you canadians understand sarcasm sometimes the reader must decide that what he s reading is so ludicrous that it must mean the opposite of what it said kinda like the toronto s going to win the cup posts yeah right and cows can fly friendly jibe mode off geez gerald like anyone reading rec flamefest hockey pens are great didn t know that le mow was from quebec patrick
rec.sport.hockey	re too many europeans in nhl in article apr alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca gerald olchowy writes anyways crawl back into the hole you crawled out of the nba doesn t care where they get basketball players from major league baseball doesn t give a damn where they get baseball players from except cuba that is mlb is perfectly willing to take players from cuba they just have to defect first sort of like the situation used to be with russian czech etc hockey players until the political situation in those countries changed sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.hockey	re tps will stay on the top in article apr tnclus tele nokia fi hahietanen tnclus tele nokia fi writes mighty ones get mightier tps the finnish champions are getting still stronger oh no say it isn t so btw is juha yl nen centre hpk drafted by the jets during last year he has reached the top level among finnish centres he had very good playoff games against tps yes yl nen is a draft choice of the jets assuming of course this is the same yl nen that played for kiekko espoo in he was a th round st overall pick of the jets in the entry draft i noticed in the summaries that yl nen had really begun to play well in the playoffs daryl turner r s h contact for the winnipeg jets internet umturne ccu umanitoba ca fidonet or please route through tkachuk over to zhamnov up to sel nne he shoots he scores the jets win the cup the jets win the cup essensa for vezina housley for norris sel nne for calder
rec.sport.hockey	re too many europeans in nhl in article apr alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca gerald olchowy writes in article apr pasteur berkeley edu daniell cory berkeley edu daniel lyddy writes you know you re absolutely right i think we should round up all those players of european descent and ship em back to where they came from let s see with whom should we start i dunno lemieux hmmm sounds like he has french blood in him hey france is part of europe send that euro blooded boy back don t you americans study history the french settled in north america as early or before the british lemieux can probably trace back his north american heritage back a lot further than most of us gerald uh gerald i think he was joking lisa
rec.sport.hockey	re too many europeans in nhl somebody wrote i d love to see a european nhl division but can t see it happen for some time there s simply not enough fan interest at the moment in several crucial markets like germany italy and france while sweden and finland probably can t afford to shell out for tickets the way american canadian fans do call it the minnesota north stars effect scandinavians do love hockey but we prefer to watch local inexpensive hockey to the nhl the national hockey league should love the idea though pan european tv channels such as eurosport could bring in the millions the american networks likely never will pay this brings up a question i asked myself no answer when it was mentionned that the nhl could expand in europe would most of the north americans now playing in the nhl be willing to play for a team in europe i do not think that the majority of hockey players are necessarily interested in expanding their cultural experience to that level i know i would but i am not a pro hockey player when one recalls some players remarks in the last few years it makes me wonder how a european expansion could be achieved remember these lindros did not want to play in quebec for more than reasons nicholls in edmonton r courtnall wanted to be traded to la only c lemieux said he would refuse to go to edmonton earlier this year i know there are many non cultural reasons behind these but there is more some american players who played for the expos complained about the french fact and that the city was not quite like the other us cities one players wife trying to make her point went on to complain that she could not even find her favorite brand of nacho chips in montreal anybody knows what happened when all these us football players moved to london spain etc for the one year of that new football league years ago i wonder what the players association thinks about going to europe myself i would like to see some european teams but what would be the best way to do it marc
rec.sport.hockey	sad day for hockey ee i andrew cmu edu ethan z evans writes of course penalties will have to be changed roughing chauvanistic males being aggressive slashing chauvanistic males venting frustration fighting proof that males cannot cope with their feelings no no no since all the penalties fall into three classes there should only be three penalties foul any illegal contact with the other player or his stick with your body or stick if you get you are out for the game unsportsmanlike contact an intentional foul this inlcludes all the current flavours of roughing fighting and boarding if you get two you are thrown out of the game and fined technical foul bad mouthing the ref by player or coach penalty shot is awarded two and you are thrown out of the game besides the penalty shot for one technical if the team gets penalties in a period the opposing team gets a penalty shot for every additional one until the end of the period the victim gets two shots if he she was in the act of shooting when the foul ocured this works well for several reasons first penalty shots are the most exciting thing in hockey right so it follows that the more the better next when the player is setting up for a penalty shot the network can take a commercial finally with only three penalties the network announcers don meredith dick vitale john madden pat summerall and marv levy among others will be able to tell the viewers what happened before the pa announcer says it oh one other rule when a goal is scored times a period the play cannot resume until the pa announcer announces it this way the network can sneak in a few more commercials then once the pa announcer has told them who scored the tv announcer can tell you the viewer and even have a chance of pronouncing his name right seriously though i actually went to see a nba basketball game last week for the first time in my life i was amazed how boring it was the play is so slow they actually had fans come out for things like free throw shooting contests during the period of course the laker girls get to do their routines at least times during the game and not just between periods either there is a whistle every seconds on average maybe less the game is minutes with minutes between quarters and and a minute halftime and it still takes over hours the reason for this has to be tv there is plenty of room to throw in commercials and have the announcer jabber while nothing else is happening on tv basketball is fairly entertaining imho but it is better to watch it on tv than to be there if this is the road the nhl is following then it truly is a sad day enough for now dvb
rec.sport.hockey	re too many europeans in nhl how long has don cherry been a student at sfu or is that arche bunker please keep this racist drivel off of the net you re an embarassment to canadians everywhere bill
rec.sport.hockey	re tps will stay on the top in apr tnclus tele nokia fi hahietanen tnclus tele nokia fi writes btw is juha yl nen centre hpk drafted by the jets during last year he has reached the top level among finnish centres he had very good playoff games against tps i m not sure about juha but another top center rauli raitanen ss t is drafted by jets raitanen had very good year and he has played in the finnish nationalteam i believe that he ll be one of the best finns in this year s wc if matikainen head coach elects him to the team hannu tommi
rec.sport.hockey	usenet playoff pool i saw a previous request for the rules and instructions for the usenet playoff pool but i haven t seen any responce does anybody have this info if so post away or you could mail it to me thanks in advance phil barone internet pbarone x a ess harris com harris corporation gisd cape canaveral a f s
rec.sport.hockey	re where are the doubters now hmm in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes for those of you who can only decide which team is best after you have seen the standings tor chi det van no team in the campbell conference has a better record than toronto that s true but according to your stats chicago has just as good a record as toronto it s interesting that you should list toronto ahead of chicago laurie marshall wayne state university detroit michigan go wings
rec.sport.hockey	re miami s name in article apr vax cns muskingum edu da tinker vax cns muskingum edu writes when will the new miami franchise team announce it s name just curious the south florida colons go skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite go braves an effect on you mike patton faith no more go hornets go capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd a prism gatech edu
rec.sport.hockey	testing just testing no flames please bye
rec.sport.hockey	re too many europeans in nhl you re right i m sick of seeing all those white guys on skates myself the vancouver canucks should be half women and overall one third oriental and i ll gladly volunteer myself for the overage draft gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
rec.sport.hockey	rec sport hockey frequently asked questions archive name hockey faq rec sport hockey answers to frequently asked questions and other news contents new info nhl nhl minor leagues college hockey north america other leagues e g europe canada cup tournament e mail files usenet hockey pool up coming dates answers to some frequently asked questions miscellaneous send comments suggestions and criticisms regarding this faq list via e mail to hamlet u washington edu new info this section will describe additions since the last post so that you can decide if there is anything worth reading paragraphs containing new information will be preceded by two asterisks new anaheim contact winnipeg to keep affiliate in moncton new milwaukee contact ihl broadcaster of the year named rheaume to start against cyclones san diego sets record ticket info included for ncaa division i championships world championship pool b results listed sweden hockey games final standings listed swedish elite league final standings listed new olypmic hockey mailing list new montreal mailing list address nhl national hockey league for detailed information concerning a team particularly where to get tickets and merchandise where to watch games in town send e mail to the net contact s for the team first of last team div season cups cup net contacts anaheim mighty ducks kris myers kris fs assist uci edu boston bruins a buffalo sabres a jeff horvath jhorvath macc wisc edu calgary flames s caldwell mtroyal ab ca chicago blackhawks n john scholvin scholvin casbah acns nwu edu detroit red wings n sglenn cmsa gmr com edmonton oilers s andrew scott andrew idacom hp com hartford whalers a matthew olsen dmolsen athena mit edu los angeles kings s stan willis willis empire dnet hac com minnesota north stars n mitch mcgowan hamlet u washington edu montreal canadiens a new jersey devils p new york islanders p mark anania ananim rpi edu new york rangers p paul romano romano monolith bellcore com ottawa senators a scott simpson simpson bnr ca philadelphia flyers p pete clark seth hos cad att com pittsburgh penguins p lori iannamico lli cs cmu edu thomas sullivan tms cs cmu edu quebec nordiques a st louis blues n joseph achkar jca cec wustl edu san jose sharks s nelson lu claudius leland stanford edu south florida tampa bay lightning n tom wilson wilson eola cs ucf edu toronto maple leafs n darryl gamble darryl cs yorku ca vancouver canucks s alan chim chim sfu ca washington capitals p david lu david eng umd edu winnipeg jets s umturne ccu umanitoba ca a adams n norris p patrick s smythe calgary formerly atlanta flames detroit formerly detroit cougars detroit falcons edmonton formerly alberta oilers wha edmonton oilers wha hartford formerly new england whalers wha minnesota cleveland barons were merged with minnesota for the season new jersey formerly kansas city scouts colorado rockies quebec formerly quebec nordiques wha toronto formerly toronto arenas toronto st patricks winnipeg formerly winnipeg jets wha teams with mailing lists see section for addresses boston buffalo los angeles montreal philadelphia pittsburgh st louis san jose tampa bay vancouver washington schedule schedule for the nhl april sun mon tue wed thu fri sat min cal mon was buf bos det chi nyi nyr cal sj har pit chi stl que ott van det tor phi win edm win sj ott har van tb min la mon nyi nj tor tb phi pit que bos buf har nyr bos que edm van que bos van cal bos mon cal sj buf min har ott chi nyi pit nyr buf det stl chi cal la mon pit det tb chi tb pit nj edm sj nyr nj sj la har que nyr was nyi was was phi la sj van ott phi win tor win stl min stl tb nj was ott nyi nyr pit phi tor ott bos was mon mon buf bos ott phi buf que buf nyr phi cal edm nyi har sj cal cal van chi min pit nj tor chi tb chi la van was nyr min det win edm ott que edm win tor har stl tor har nyi min stl tb win van la nyi nj nj pit tb stl the season will begin on and end on playoffs will begin on and end on or before nhl regular season games will be played in non nhl cities during season cities milwaukee sacramento cleveland indianapolis phoenix miami oklahoma city dallas atlanta cincinnati providence peoria hamilton saskatoon halifax here is a chart showing the number of games between the teams games each n n n p p w b b h m o q c d m s t t c e l s v w j y y h i a o u a o t u h e i t b o a d a j a i i r i t s s f r n t e i t n l r l m n n nj nyi nyr phi pit was bos buf har mon ott que chi det min stl tb tor cal edm la sj van win valerie hammerl hammerl acsu buffalo edu has posted this year s version of nhl c a schedule program for nhl games for example users can find out the games played on a certain date or find out the next ten games played by team x a copy can be obtained by e mailing hammerl acsu buffalo edu following is the neutral site schedule tue calgary vs minnesota saskatoon tue ottawa vs toronto hamilton tue chicago vs washington indianapolis tue toronto vs quebec hamilton wed buffalo vs new jersey hamilton tue los angeles vs chicago milwaukee tue montreal vs los angeles phoenix wed tampa bay vs new york rangers miami sun edmonton vs new york islanders oklahoma city tue new york islanders vs st louis dallas mon san jose vs montreal sacramento mon hartford vs winnipeg saskatoon mon boston vs pittsburgh atlanta mon st louis vs hartford peoria tue philadelphia vs calgary cincinnati sat quebec vs tampa bay halifax mon new york rangers vs san jose sacramento mon detroit vs philadelphia cleveland tue winnipeg vs ottawa saskatoon mon vancouver vs buffalo hamilton thu minnesota vs vancouver saskatoon tue washington vs detroit milwaukee tue new jersey vs boston providence sun pittsburgh vs edmonton cleveland location subject to change nhl playoff schedule wales conference division semifinals april campbell conference division semifinals april may wales conference division finals may campbell conference division finals may wales conference final may campbell conference final may stanley cup final june if neccessary news scores spike bryan k strouse bks cbnewsh cb att com posts weekday news and box scores sunday through thursday john p curcio jpc philabs philips com posts weekend news and box scores both maintain e mail lists for faster delivery net contacts post team news as they see hear read it notable team news transactions and announcements note that this information is culled from press releases and posts it is updated each month and only information currently under discussion or of continuing importance or interest will be listed for more than two postings boston bruins boston legislators and the developers proposing a new boston garden finally agreed to a deal that puts the seat million project back on track to be finished in september right wing daniel marois will be sidelined indefinitely following surgery to repair a herniated disc in his back sent defenseman glen murray to providence of the american hockey league buffalo sabres puck acquired left winger bob errey from pittsburgh for defenseman mike ramsey veteran buffalo sabres broadcaster ted darling will be inducted into the club s hall of fame sunday april darling who joined the expansion sabres in was the team s play by play announcer on both television and radio until illness forced him out of the booth during last season recalled forwards viktor gordiouk and doug macdonald from rochester of american hockey league calgary flames acquired veteran right wing greg paslawski from philadelphia for future considerations recalled center todd harkins and left winger tomas forslund from salt lake city of international hockey league chicago blackhawks the million privately financed united center scheduled to open in august will be home to the nba s chicago bulls and nhl s chicago blackhawks the stadium is owned by entities controlled by the two teams the owners apparently still have not made a decision on whether the old chicago stadium will be razed for parking space once the new facility located directly across the street opens suspended defenseman craig muni indefinitely for failing to report following a trade with edmonton detroit red wings acquired defenseman steve konroyd from hartford for a sixth round draft pick annnounced the signing of right wing joe frederick their th pick in the national hockey league entry draft two contrite hockey fans have returned the stolen michigan sports hall of fame plaque honoring detroit red wing great gordie howe the bronze plaque was stolen more than four years ago from cobo hall in detroit site of the michigan hall of fame edmonton oilers sent forward esa tikkanen to the new york rangers for center doug weight traded defenseman craig muni to chicago for forward mike hudson nhl commissioner gary bettman said the edmonton oilers lease with northlands coliseum must be improved if the team is to survive in the city edmonton northlands is a non profit agency set up by the city to administer exhibition facilities including the coliseum oilers owner peter pocklington calls his lease with northlands horrendous and has threatened to move the team if he doesn t get a better deal he makes no money from parking concessions or building advertising the seat coliseum also has few of the lucrative private boxes that produce significant revenues for other owners announced center kevin todd will not need surgery but will miss the remainder of the season with a separated shoulder hartford whalers sent defenseman steve konroyd to detroit for a sixth round draft pick acquired left winger robert kron and a third round draft pick from vancouver for left winger murray craven and a fifth round draft pick the state of connecticut will begin negotiations to buy the civic center from the city in an effort to keep the financially struggling hartford whalers franchise in the city los angeles kings sent center john mcintyre to the new york rangers for defenseman mark hardy and ottawa s fifth round draft pick minnesota north stars if calling from the u s if calling from canada the dallas city council has approved an agreement with the minnesota north stars that will bring the nhl club to reunion arena next season defenseman mark tinordi captain of the north stars will be sidelined the rest of the season including any postseason games the north stars might play because of a broken collarbone acquired defenseman mark osiecki from winnipeg for ninth and th round draft picks in added defenseman travis richards from the university of minnesota a former employee filed a sexual harassment suit against minnesota north star owner norman green karen kari dziedzic green s former executive assistant claims green often instructed her to wear cosmetics described her outfits as very hot and very sexy once slapped her hand as she was about to eat and humiliated her by grabbing her hand and rubbing it through a client s hair the minnesota north stars who will move to dallas after this season announced that nearly season ticket reservations have been made for their new home at reunion arena which has a capacity of the met center commission has told the minnesota north stars that it wants the club out with its keys returned at midnight after the last home game the club is moving to dallas for next season the club must pay unpaid interest of on the team s late rent payment for which was made earlier this month and has been instructed not to take property such as the scoreboard and zamboni ice surfacing machine derian hatcher s game misconduct penalty was rescinded by the nhl allowing the minnesota defenseman to play in the north stars last two regular season games hatcher was given the penalty during a fight at the end of a loss at st louis on sunday april but the league didn t rescind the game misconduct penalty shane churla received the stars recalled center cal mcgowan from their top minor league club in kalamazoo mich to replace churla montreal canadiens acquired defenseman rob ramage from tampa bay for minor league defensemen eric charron and alain cote and future considerations new jersey devils bernie nicholls publicly apologized for his criticism of referee denis morel after the devils loss to the buffalo sabres nicholls was ejected by morel for being the third man in on a fight late in the second period of that game and afterward nicholls called morel a homer and an embarrassment to the referee s association new york islanders traded right wing daniel marois to boston for a conditional draft choice new york rangers obtained forward esa tikkanen from edmonton for center doug weight acquired left winger mike hartman from tampa bay acquired center john mcintyre from los angeles for defenseman mark hardy and ottawa s fifth round draft pick defenseman brian leetch will undergo additional surgery on the right ankle he broke in a non skating fall and is not expected to play again this season leetch suffered the broken ankle march following a victory over san jose the team said he slipped on an icy patch of pavement as he was getting out of a taxi cab in front of his apartment announced that defenseman james patrick will require surgery on a herniated disc in his back and will not play again this season returned goaltender corey hirsch to binghamton of the american hockey league ottawa senators the ottawa senators received the go ahead to build the seat palladium on the proposed location in nearby kanata ont the projected cost is c million construction will be postponed until the season one year behind schedule the ottawa senators lost their th consecutive nhl road game to tie the washington capitals for most road losses in a row assigned left wing martin st amour to new haven of the american hockey league philadelphia flyers the opening date of spectrum ii has been pushed back to fall formal groundbreaking has been postponed indefinitely traded veteran right wing greg paslawski to the calgary flames for future considerations pittsburgh penguins traded left winger bob errey to buffalo for defenseman mike ramsey reacquired defenseman peter taglianetti from tampa bay lightning for a third round draft choice revolutionary comics of san diego agreed to destroy all available copies of a mario lemieux comic book in a settlement with the pittsburgh penguins over a trademark infringement lawsuit the penguins sued in february charging that the sport stars mario lemieux comic infringed on the team s logo and uniform which are registered trademarks quebec nordiques st louis blues st louis blues center ron sutter will miss the rest of the season as a result of separating his right shoulder san jose sharks the san jose sharks announced that ticket prices will increase by about for the season when they move from the cow palace into a new million arena in san jose recalled defenseman tom pederson from kansas city of the international hockey league reached agreement in principle with left wing alexander cherbayev tampa bay lightning at least two investor groups are poised to build a sports arena in downtown tampa if the delay plagued company that holds a lease from the tampa bay lightning bows out tampa coliseum inc has a lease with the national hockey league team to develop an entertainment and sports arena next to tampa stadium but has been unable to raise enough money for the project sent left winger mike hartman to the new york rangers for center randy gilhen sent defenseman peter taglianetti to pittsburgh for a third round draft choice sent defenseman rob ramage to the montreal canadiens for minor league defensemen eric charron and alain cote and future considerations manon rheaume s first starting appearance in goal for the atlanta knights was impressive enough for her coach to say she has a chance to be a backup goalie for another minor league team next season rheaume the first female to play professional hockey stopped shots and gave up six goals against the cincinnati cyclones on saturday night april after the game her coach gene ubriaco said rheaume performed well enough to compete for the no goalie spot with the louisville icehawks of the east coast hockey league next season the knights and the icehawks are minor league clubs of the tampa bay lightning as their first season comes to a close there are rumors swirling that the tampa bay lightning just might become the atlanta lightning or the minnesota lightning but they are just rumors according to lightning general manager phil esposito espn reported on sunday april that the lightning who have been playing in seat expo hall are exploring opportunities to move to either atlanta or minneapolis but esposito said there was no truth to the report we were disappointed with espn s irresponsible comment esposito said there is just no substance to the rumor rumors have been swirling for the past two years regarding a move by tampa bay which is presently discussing plans to build a new arena toronto maple leafs defenseman matt martin who helped maine win the ncaa hockey championship gave up his final year of eligibility and signed a contract with the toronto maple leafs vancouver canucks the vancouver canucks have cleared the last hurdle in their effort to build a new stadium vancouver council has given the green light for the million dollar complex it will seat thousand people and will have an adjoining office tower it will be built between the viaducts near b c place in vancouver site preparation will begin this summer with a completion date of fall traded left winger robert kron and a third round draft pick to hartford for left winger murray craven and a fifth round draft pick obtained defenseman dan ratushny from winnipeg for a ninth round draft pick signed right wing brian loney to a multi year contract and assigned him to hamilton of american hockey league ahl washington capitals caps traded goaltender jim hrivnak and future considerations to winnipeg for goaltender rick tabaracci winnipeg jets winnipeg jets have been allowed economic assistance in order to keep them in the smythe division as a result of expansion sent defenseman mark osiecki to minnesota for ninth and th round draft picks in sent goaltender rick tabaracci to washington for jim hrivnak and future considerations sent defenseman dan ratushny to vancouver for a ninth round draft pick winnipeg s teemu selanne broke the nhl s rookie points record the jets rookie tied the record of points set by peter stastny with quebec with a goal his th of the season and moved ahead on an assist in a loss to toronto the fort wayne komets said they have been told by winnipeg that the jets will keep a minor league affiliation with moncton of the american hockey league there have been reports the jets would move players from moncton to fort wayne next season expansion news the national hockey league announced that the expansion anaheim and south florida franchises will join the league for the season disney and national hockey league officials announced monday march that the mighty ducks of anaheim disney s expansion team will take to the ice next fall michael eisner chairman and chief executive officer of the walt disney co said the mighty ducks will play at the pond the new anaheim sports arena near disney s flagship theme park the arena is under construction and will be completed in june the pond seats the team still must meet the league s requirement that it sell at least season tickets for the final grant of nhl membership anaheim named jack ferreira general manager and pierre gauthier assistant general manager veteran nhl scout al godfrey has been hired as the midwest regional scout for the anaheim mighty ducks philadelphia flyers senior vice president bobby clarke was named monday march to the post of general manager for miami s nhl expansion team franchise owner h wayne huizenga made the announcement at the miami arena three months after being awarded a franchise huizenga said he plans to have a team on the ice in time for the beginning of the nhl season in october realignment eastern conference atlantic division washington capitals new jersey devils new york islanders new york rangers philadelphia flyers south florida tampa bay lightning northeast division boston bruins buffalo sabres hartford whalers montreal canadiens ottawa senators pittsburgh penguins quebec nordiques western conference central division chicago blackhawks dallas stars detroit red wings st louis blues toronto maple leafs winnipeg jets pacific division anaheim mighty ducks calgary flames edmonton oilers los angeles kings san jose sharks vancouver canucks schedule eastern conference teams will play five games against each of six divisional opponents four games against each of the seven teams in the conference s other division and two games against each of the western conference members western conference teams will play six games against each of five divisional opponents four games against each of the six teams in the conference s other division and two games against each of the eastern conference clubs playoffs the system will be conference based with the no team meeting the no team in the first round no vs no no vs no and no vs no matchups will be based on overall points with the four division champions being placed in the first or second place seeds in each conference and being assured of home ice in the first two playoff rounds all series will be best of seven rotation except matchups between central and pacific teams those series will rotate to reduce travel in those cases the team with the most regular season points will choose whether to start the series at home or away draft news under terms of the new expansion draft which will be held in june each of the existing clubs will be allowed to protect one goaltender five defensemen and nine forwards the most recent expansion drafts allowed teams to protect two goalies and did not make a distinction between forwards and defensemen first year pros only will be exempt from the draft which is down from the two year exemption teams had last season san jose tampa bay and ottawa still will be allowed to exempt second year pros each of the teams will lose two players with a maximum loss of one goaltender and a maximum loss of one defenseman the one exception is that a team which loses a goaltender can then no longer lose a defenseman at the end of the first phase of the draft the two new franchises will have three goaltenders eight defensemen and forwards for a total of players a second phase then will be conducted where san jose tampa bay and ottawa will select two players each from the rosters of the two new teams ottawa tampa bay and san jose will be guaranteed priority drafting selection in the draft as long as they have the three worst records anaheim and miami will choose no lower than fourth and fifth the expansion franchises will move up in the draft should either san jose tampa bay or ottawa not finish in the bottom three positions the two new teams will pick first and second in the entry draft regardless of their finish in should either of the two new teams not play next season they would have priority drafting position in the owners announced the draft will be in hartford and the draft in winnipeg the draft was scheduled for boston but a delay in the construction of a new arena required the draft be moved league news disputes the nhl owners and players have resolved differences over salary arbitration procedures clearing the way for about hearings nhlpa executive director bob goodenow didn t disclose how the issues were resolved but the prior sticking point had been the manner in which statistics were used in arbitration hearings olympics the nhl announced february it will not make professional players available to compete in the winter olympics league leadership los angeles kings owner bruce mcnall succeeded blackhawks owner bill wirtz as chairman of the nhl s powerful board of governors appointed to join mcnall on the executive committee were ron corey of the montreal canadiens mike ilitch of the detroit red wings peter pocklington of the edmonton oilers and ed snider of the philadelphia flyers gary bettman vice president and general counsel of the national basketball association was named commissioner of the national hockey league friday december miscellaneous henri richard bernie parent and billy smith have been named special ambassadors for the stanley cup centennial a season long celebration of the nhl championship trophy the trio will appear at league wide function such as the all star game and stanley cup playoffs the national hockey league named john n turner former prime minister of canada to serve on board of directors of hockey hall of fame and museum and nominated scotty morrison david m taylor larry bertuzzi robert g bundy walter bush murray costello jim gregory leslie kaplan lawrence g meyer and alan tonks to serve on board which takes office march nhl president gil stein was one of four individuals elected to the hockey hall of fame builder s category the others were buffalo sabres chairman of the board and president seymour knox iii vancouver canucks chairman frank griffiths and veteran canadian hockey executive fred page former nhl linesman john d amico was selected in the hall of fame s referee linesman category nhl tv games are carried on tsn and cbc in canada on espn in the u s check your local listings the national hockey league has struck a conditional five year deal with espn to televise professional hockey through the season the series of agreements grants espn exclusive national coverage of the nhl starting with the season and the cable network has an option to extend the term of that domestic agreement for four more years the deal also grants espn exclusive international television distribution excluding canada for the next five years the league s new tv contract calls for espn to televise up to regular season games to its domestic audience this coming season and playoff games including the entire stanley cup final the majority of espn s regular season games will be televised on friday nights nhl commissioner gary bettman announced wednesday march that abc sports will televise five stanley cup playoff games starting next month abc will carry the playoff games on its network through an arrangement with espn the u s rightsholder for nhl games espn will provide the production of the games abc owns espn april wales conference game quarterfinals april campbell conference game quarterfinals may wales conference game semifinals may campbell conference game semifinals may wales conference game finals award winners all star teams hall of fame inductees and draft picks award winners hart trophy mvp mark messier nyr vezina trophy best goalie patrick roy mon norris trophy best defenseman brian leetch nyr calder trophy best rookie pavel bure van selke trophy best defensive forward guy carbonneau mon lady byng trophy sportsmanship wayne gretzky la jack adams award best coach pat quinn van bill masterton memorial trophy perseverance mark fitzpatrick nyi king clancy trophy contribution to community ray bourque bos jennings trophy lowest team gaa patrick roy mon art ross trophy most scoring points mario lemieux pit hall of famer players frank boucher and red dutton and executives bruce mcnall and gil stein thursday were named the winners of the lester patrick award for outstanding service to hockey in the united states the award is selected each year by a committee representing a wide cross section of the hockey community st all star team patrick roy g mon ray bourque d bos brian leetch d nyr mark messier c nyr brett hull rw stl kevin stevens lw pit all star game starters as voted by fans wales conference mario lemieux c pittsburgh jaromir jagr w pittsburgh kevin stevens w pittsburgh ray bourque d boston brian leetch d rangers patrick roy g montreal campbell conference steve yzerman c detroit brett hull w st louis pavel bure w vancouver chris chelios d chicago paul coffey d los angeles ed belfour g chicago all rookie team gilbert dionne lw mon tony amonte rw nyr kevin todd c nj vladimir konstantinov d det nicklas lidstrom d det dominik hasek g chi hall of fame inductees marcel dionne bob gainey lanny mcdonald and woody dumart first round of the entry draft player pos team roman hamrlik d tb alexei yashin c ott mike rathje d sj todd warriner lw que darius kasparaitis d nyi cory stillman c cal ryan sittler lw phi brandon convery c tor robert petrovicky c har andrei nazarov lw sj david cooper d buf sergei krivokrasov lw chi joe hulbig lw edm sergei gonchar d was jason bowen lw phi dmitri kvartalnov lw bos sergei bautin d win jason smith d nj martin straka c pit david wilkie d mon libor polasek c van curtis bowen lw det grant marshall rw tor peter ferraro c nyr new nhl rules game ejection for instigating a fight helmets are optional grabbing an opponent s stick as a defensive move is a penalty diving to draw a penalty is a penalty coincidental minors when both teams are full strength result in vs play high sticking is from the waist up new cba ratified by nhlpa on term september to september licensing and endorsements players own exclusive rights to their individual personality including their likenesses salary arbitration new rules negotiated salary arbitrators to be jointly agreed upon free agency compensation scale reduced for players age and under group iii free agent age reduced to from a player who has completed or more professional seasons minor or nhl and who in last year of contract didn t earn more than the average nhl salary can elect once in his career to become an unrestricted free agent at the end of his contract salary and awards players playoff fund increased to m in m in new minimum salary of insurance disability coverage dental broad based medical improvements increase in life insurance for players coverage for wives pension improved pension contributions of to per player per year depending on the player s number of nhl games agreement on language to guarantee continuation of security plan negotiated in regular season increased from to games in for games played at neutral sites all arrangements and revenues to be shared rosters kept at skaters and goaltenders for entry draft reduced to rounds from supplemental draft one selection for each non playoff team joint study group examine financial state of nhl issue report to assist in preparing for negotiations nhl free agency categories effective until group i players aged and under player s choice of player equalization or draft pick compensation for compensation old club has right to match offer from new club for equalization old club has no right to match offer equalization which can consist of players draft picks and or cash must be agreed upon between two clubs or submitted to arbitration group ii players aged to player s choice of player equalization or draft pick compensation for equalization old club has right to match offer only if it is at least for compensation schedule is one first round pick if player signs for year two first round picks if player signs for million year extra first round pick for each additional m over m year group iii players aged and over old club gets no compensation but has right to match offer to receive right to match old club must make qualifying offer of over player s salary in prior season group iv players considered defected free agents group v player with years of experience whose salary is below nhl average can choose to be a free agent without compensation once in his career nhl minor leagues the nhl minor leagues are the international hockey league the american hockey league and the east coast hockey league information on the central hockey league and the american hockey association can be found in section ihl contacts ihl rob springall rgs ultb isc rit edu atlanta knights scott clarkson gt c prism gatech edu cincinnati cyclones joseph combs jgcombs uceng uc edu cleveland lumberjacks rob gasser csrag uoft utoledo edu ft wayne komets rob gasser csrag uoft utoledo edu milwaukee admirals jason hanson jason studsys mscs mu edu salt lake golden eagles roland behunin behunin logdis oo aflc af mil the international hockey league has granted a franchise to a las vegas group headed by henry stickney for the season the international hockey league named bob chase voice of the fort wayne komets as the league s broadcaster of the year the ihl also said the annual award effective next year will be named in chase s honor also honored by the ihl were jim loria of the kansas city blades as marketing director of the year shelly gartner of the phoenix roadrunners as merchandise manager of the year and steve doherty of the kalamazoo wings as public relations director of the year the atlanta knights of the international hockey league announced thursday april that manon rheaume will be the starting goaltender in a home game saturday night april against the cincinnati cyclones rheaume will become the first female to start in a regular season professional hockey game fort wayne announced winger scott gruhl will retire at the end of the international hockey league season gruhl will join the muskegon fury of the colonial league the fort wayne komets said they have been told by winnipeg that the jets will keep a minor league affiliation with moncton of the american hockey league there have been reports the jets would move players from moncton to fort wayne next season the san diego gulls of the international hockey league set a record with their st victory over the salt lake golden eagles the gulls became the first team in professional hockey to win that many games in a season the montreal canadiens won games ihl s turner cup the kansas city blades defeated muskegon lumberjacks games to ahl contacts ahl rob springall rgs ultb isc rit edu bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu mark anania ananim rpi edu see section for newsletter information atlantic division cape breton fredericton halifax moncton st john s northern division adirondack capital district providence new haven springfield southern division baltimore binghamton hershey rochester utica hamilton the new haven senators have been sold by peter shipman to the ottawa senators nhl organization they are the only canadian nhl team with an american ahl affiliate and have made it clear they intend to move the team to somewhere in the canadian atlantic provinces this sale and move has yet to be approved by the ahl head office but is expected to pass easily at the general meeting in may the baltimore skipjacks the washington capitals american hockey league affliate will skate next season as the portland pirates the calgary flames will base their farm team in the ahl in st john new brunswick next season the team will be called the st john blue flames the fort wayne komets of the ihl said they have been told by winnipeg of the nhl that the jets will keep a minor league affiliation with moncton of the american hockey league there have been reports the jets would move players from moncton to fort wayne next season ahl s calder cup the adirondack red wings beat the st john s maple leafs games to the home ice curse held true as all games in the final were won by the visiting team john anderson new haven is winner of les cunningham plaque as ahl mvp echl contacts echl toledo storm rob gasser csrag uoft utoledo edu the toledo storm hockey team is asking seagate convention center to consider becoming its host site beginning with the season the storm which has played its last two seasons in the toledo sports arena said it asked for dates in the downtown facility the storm also has been talking with backers of a proposed ice complex in suburban sylvania to become a primary tenant echl s riley cup hampton roads beat louisville games to see section for newsletter information minor league affiliates for nhl teams bos providence bruins ahl johnstown chiefs echl buf rochester americans ahl erie panthers echl cal salt lake golden eagles ihl roanoke valley rebels echl chi indianapolis ice ihl columbus chill echl st thomas col hl det adirondack red wings ahl toledo storm echl edm cape breton oilers ahl winston salem thunderbirds echl har springfield indians ahl louisville icehawks echl la phoenix roadrunners ihl raleigh icecaps echl min kalamazoo wings ihl dayton bombers echl mon fredericton canadiens ahl winston salem thunderbirds echl flint col hl nj utica devils ahl birmingham bulls echl nyi capital district islanders ahl richmond renegades echl nyr binghamton rangers ahl ott new haven senators ahl thunder bay col hl phi hershey bears ahl pit cleveland lumberjacks ihl knoxville cherokees echl que halifax citadels ahl greensboro monarchs echl sj kansas city blades ihl nashville knights echl stl peoria rivermen ihl dayton bombers echl flint col hl tb atlanta knights ihl tor st john s maple leafs ahl raleigh icecaps echl brantford col hl van columbus chill echl hamilton canucks ahl was baltimore skipjacks ahl hampton roads admirals echl win moncton hawks ahl thunder bay col hl ind cincinnati cyclones ihl fort wayne komets ihl michigan falcons colonial hl milwaukee admirals ihl san diego gulls ihl st thomas colonial hl college hockey contacts ncaa mike machnik nin b merrimack edu wisconsin badgers jeff horvath horvath cs wisc edu ccha bowling green state keith instone instone euclid bgsu edu ecac clarkson bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu e mail lists wayne smith wts maine maine edu maintains lists one for discussions hockey l and one for news hockey d send e mail to listserv maine maine edu with body subscribe hockey l name favorite team or subscribe hockey d name a read only list containing news from hockey l up to date division i standings and scores can be obtained through the archives of the college hockey mailing list send a message to the server at listserv maine maine edu with the body containing only the commands either or both ftp site andy bgsu edu the directory pub hockey contains ccha press releases scores standings and rosters the sub directory archives has archives of the division i college hockey mailing list since also archives from the division iii list since may are available ncaa hockey championship semi finals maine michigan ot lake superior state boston university finals maine lake superior state freshman paul kariya who was named winner of the hobey baker award as college hockey s top player the ncaa division i hockey championships will be held at the st paul civic center in st paul minnesota on march and april for priority seating call the university of minnesota ticket office at between a m and p m monday through friday or send a postcard to university of minnesota ticket office ncaa hockey championships th avenue se minneapolis mn ncaa division i teams ccha central collegiate hockey association bowling green ferris state illinois chicago lake superior miami michigan michigan state ohio state western michigan notre dame kent state alaska fairbanks affiliate member ccha playoff structure the top will host the bottom vs vs etc in a two of three weekend series the six winners will advance to joe louis arena for single elimination the rest of the way the top remaining seeds get a bye while plays and plays on the first night on the second night the remaining teams battle it out leaving only two to play for the championship on the third night alaska fairbanks as an affiliate member will be seeded from to by the league office ecac eastern college athletic conference men s brown clarkson colgate cornell dartmouth harvard princeton rpi st lawrence union vermont yale ecac eastern college athletic conference women s brown colby cornell dartmouth harvard new hampshire northeastern princeton providence rochester institute of technology st lawrence yale the eastern collegiate athletic conference unveiled the nation s first intercollegiate women s ice hockey league and announced the teams will begin play in the season the top eight finishers in the ecac women s ice hockey league will qualify for a post season tournament the league replaces an informal team conference of nine division i and six division iii schools which held their own respective division tournaments at the end of the regular season the ecac said it would discontinue its division iii women s tournament after the season hockey east boston college boston university umass lowell maine merrimack new hampshire northeastern providence wcha western collegiate hockey association colorado college denver michigan tech minnesota minnesota duluth north dakota northern michigan st cloud wisconsin alaska anchorage has joined the wcha as a full fledged member for independents air force alabama huntsville alaska anchorage alaska fairbanks army canadian intercollegiate athletic union ciau championships finalists team division university of alberta golden bears west university of guelph gryphons ontario west university of toronto varsity blues ontario east university of acadia axemen east semi finals acadia alberta toronto guelph finals acadia toronto other hockey leagues world championships in czechoslovakia sweden defeated finland gold medal match czechoslovakia defeated switzerland bronze medal match final standings round robin group a w t l gf ga pts group b w t l gf ga pts finland russia germany czech usa switz sweden canada italy norway poland france austria will replace poland in pool a of wc in germany the world championships pool a is scheduled to run from apr to may in munich germany world championships pool b in eindhoven the netherlands g w l t pts gf ga great britain poland netherlands denmark japan romania china bulgaria great britain advances to pool a bulgaria is relegated to pool c olympic games e mail lists charlie slavin slavin maine maine edu maintains olympuck the olympic hockey discussion list send e mail to listserv maine maine edu with body subscribe olympuck your name favorite country ies cis won the gold canada the silver and czechoslovakia the bronze defeated usa yale hockey coach tim taylor was named coach for the us olympic team dany dube from the uqtr patriotes ciau and tom renney from the kamloops blazers whl are co coaches of canada s national program the nagano winter olympic organizing committee said it has approved the addition of women s ice hockey and curling to the list of official medal events at the games the decision which came at the organizing committee meeting here followed an accord reached in nagano between the committee and the ioc coordination committee the decision will be formally ratified by an executive board meeting of the international olympic committee ioc and its session as a result the number of total events at nagano will increase to in seven sports canada cup team canada defeated team usa games to izvestia hockey tournament final russia ii czechoslovakia game for rd and th place russia i sweden game for th and th place finland switzerland game for th and th place canada germany final standings for the th izvestia cup russia ii the russian olympic team czechoslovakia russia i sweden finland switzerland canada germany germany cup russia defeated team canada to win the four team germany cup for the third time the russian team coached for the first time by the legendary boris michailov assured itself of the winner s check after a win over czechoslovakia the former soviet union and commonwealth of independent states captured the tournament in and under viktor tikhonov spengler cup canada with fabian joseph scoring his second goal of the game at of overtime beat farjestad sweden in the final of the spengler cup at davos switzerland the canadians overcame a two goal deficit in the final two minutes of regulation and went on to earn their second overtime victory within hours final team canada farjestad sweden ot european cup finals duesseldorf december bronze jokerit helsinki lions milano gold malmoe if dynamo moscow shootout this was the third successive european championship for a swedish team in and the champion was djurgaarden stockholm sweden hockey games final standings gp w t l gf ga p sweden czech republic russia canada sweden wins due to head to head result vs the czech republic junior leagues contact whl randy coulman coulman skdad usask ca mitch mcgowan hamlet u washington edu the site for the th memorial cup tournament has yet to be chosen it will be staged in ontario but the exact location won t be determined until next spring in march of the two regular season division champions from the ontario hockey league will meet in a best of seven series at the start of the playoff season the winner of the series earns the right to host the memorial cup traditionally held in may the eventual ohl champion will also participate in the tourney but if the league champs also happen to be the club hosting the memorial cup then the league finalists will advance as well charles poulin mon draft of st hyacinthe qmjhl is canadian hockey league player of the year memorial cup at seattle round robin standings w l gf ga sault ste marie greyhounds ohl kamloops blazers whl seattle thunderbirds whl host verdun college francais qmjhl semifinal kamloops seattle final kamloops sault ste marie central hockey league contact marc foster mfoster metgem gcn uoknor edu mfoster alliant backbone uoknor edu ted wollnik twollnik rdxsun aud alcatel com see section for newsletter information chl fort worth fire wichita thunder dallas freeze tulsa oilers memphis river kings oklahoma city blazers six non affiliated teams play a game schedule extending from early november to mid march each team is owned by the league with local interests controlling day to day operations each team has a salary cap for total players dress up unlike the echl players are not limited to three years in the league a western division may be added to the central hockey league for the season if the plans of chl president ray miron materialize miron confirmed that el paso amarillo tuscon and albuquerque are cities under consideration for the western division which would play some interlocking games with the eastern division meanwhile san antonio and houston are close to being confirmed as the league s newest members major league hockey a new hockey league with franchises throughout the united states and canada will begin play in the fallof officials announced wednesday february major league hockey was founded by roy boe former president of the new york islanders of the national hockey league and the new york new jersey nets of the american and national basketball associations according to boe the league will debut with six to eight teams playing a schedule of approximately games franchise applications have been received from groups in chicago cleveland dallas denver detroit houston minneapolis st paul phoenix san francisco saskatoon toronto and worcester mass boe said although the league will not raid existing leagues to stock its rosters boe said it will seek the world s finest hockey players boe said league play will have an international flair and discussed implementing some rules which are reminiscent of those of the iihf we re removing the red line moving the goal nets forward and eliminating all tie games said boe the mlh office will operate out of stamford conn british premier division contacts neil a mcglynn nmcglynn axion bt co uk from na nmcglynn uk co bt axion from europe steve salvini steve cs hw ac uk contact steve for the gb usenet draft e mail list send e mail to uk hockey request cee hw ac uk to subscribe durham wasps defeated nottingham panthers in british championship game finnish elite league sm liiga contacts juha koivisto kimmo kauranen hockey tac fi vesa j pyyluoma veikko vipunen hut fi final standings jokerit helsinki jyp ht jyvaskyla hifk helsinki assat pori tps turku lukko rauma kalpa kuopio hpk hameenlinna ilves tampere reipas lahti tappara tampere jokp joensuu jokp dropped and kiekko espoo from espoo qualified to the sm liiga individual stats leaders points makela mikko tps playoffs scoring selanne teemu jokerit playoffs all stars briza petr lukko virta hannu tps laurila harri jyp ht makela mikko tps janecky otakar jokerit selanne teemu jokerit german hockey league contact andreas stockmeier stocki cs tu berlin de or stocki tub uucp duesseldorfer eishockey gemeinschaft defeated sb rosenheim in german final swedish elite league elitserien contact staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson se regular season final standings vasteras brynas malmo farjestad modo lulea leksand djurgarden hv rogle frolunda aik brynas defeated lulea games to for the swedish hockey championship swiss first division kloten became the champions of the swiss league nationale a by beating fribourg gotteron to sweep the final series women s world championships at finland canada usa finland sweden china norway 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quebec feb feb xvii olympic winter games lillehammer norway answers to some frequently asked questions q why are the montreal canadiens called the habs a most of the team during the s was made up of people who lived in and around montreal hence they were called les habitants natives of montreal this was then shortened to the habs q why is the montreal canadiens logo a large c with an h within it a in the canadiens logo consisted of c with an a within it to signify club athletique canadien cac the next year cac no longer existed and it was changed to what it is now to signify club de hockey q what is the most informative hockey publication a the hockey news is preferred by most north american hockey fans it is a weekly journal with up to date info phone canada and us phone fax uk and rest of europe q how does a minute power play count in the penalty killing stats in the nhl a if x goals are scored then the team gets credit for x goals in x chances q how is computed in the nhl a first only applies to skaters except for a power play goal when a goal is scored each skater on the ice for the scoring team is given a and each skater on the ice for the other team is given a short handed goals do count for q what is the five hole a the space between a goalie s pads there are five major scoring zones upper left corner of goal upper right lower left lower right and five hole q what is the meaning of throwing an octopus on the ice a this tradition began in detroit in the s when two best of seven series were required to win the stanley cup every time detroit won a game an octopus with one less arm was thrown on the ice q who was the first woman to play in an nhl game a manon rheaume a year old goaltender became the first woman ever to play in an nhl game on september when she started in net for the expansion tampa bay lightning in an exhibition against the st louis blues rheaume played the first period before at the seat expo hall on the florida state fairgrounds and allowed two goals on nine shots she left with the score tied although the lightning ultimately lost the game q what is the richest contract in nhl history a mario lemieux the superstar center of the pittsburgh penguins signed the richest contract in nhl history a seven year deal believed to be worth about million lemieux will earn between million and million a year nearly twice as much as any other player in the league q who is the new commissioner of the nhl a gary bettman vice president and general counsel of the national basketball association was named commissioner of the national hockey league friday december bettman joined the nba in as assistant general counsel he became the league s chief legal officer in september of a new york resident bettman graduated from cornell university in and from new york university school of law in q how many professional hockey leagues are there in north america a six national american international east coast central and colonial hockey leagues miscellaneous for field hockey discussions go to the newsgroup rec sport hockey field for skating discussions go to the newsgroup rec skate some sites get another hockey group called clari sports hockey c s h consists of the upi feed for all upi news articles that are related to hockey including game results summaries scores standings etc much of the information in the nhl team news section comes from this newsgroup the rec sport hockey frequently asked questions posting is posted semi monthly usually on the st and th of each month during the hockey season this file was originally created by tom wilson who posted it during the season it was taken over by mitch mcgowan for the season please make corrections via e mail indicating r s h faq as the subject line feel free to start a discussion on any previously mentioned topic but use an appropriate subject line mitch mcgowan hamlet u washington edu
rec.sport.hockey	barasso the cheap shot master after watching the pengiuns all year and as many other teams as possible i ve really noticed an increase in tom barasso s cheap shots this year and not noticed a corrsponding increase with other goaltenders i ve also noticed that he usually gets away with it just as examples last night i noticed him elbowing scott stevens in the head which basically started the whole shoving match that got stevens scott and tocchet minute minors he also kicked john mclean of course he wasn t called for that isn t kicking an automatic match penalty and game suspension i think glenn anderson got one a few years ago for kicking gaetan duchesne in the chest there s no doubt in my mind that barasso is the dirtiest golatender since hextall he s also very good how about that tocchet head butt is there an automatic susppension that goes along with a non kicking match penalty i can t remember anymore oh the playoffs should be fun ralph
rec.sport.hockey	re how to beat pittsburgh from anna matyas now if we could just clone chelios s personality and transplant it into all of the defensemen on the islanders capitals and devils gerald in other words you want to turn them all into assholes so they will spend lots of time in the penalty box and get lots of misconducts and this comes from a chelios fan yeah and also be second in the team in scoring and play about minutes a game and play on the power play and kill penalties and be the best defenseman in the league i d take a whole team of chelioses if i could that way when one got a penalty the others could kill it ralph
rec.sport.hockey	re bruins pens the ulf neeley fight mattb hawk samsung com matt brown writes more about the messier samuelsson incident while this is true strictly speaking it was the rocksteady replicant who initially used his stick illegally to measure messier s ribcage there is no question in my mind from seeing the replay in slo mo that ulf was coming at messier with intent to hasta la vista in mind and should have been gone for that i agree with rick that ulf s cross check wasn t illegal it was the kind of check you see a dozen times during a game without being called slo mos sometimes have a tendency to make things look worse than they really are besides if messier can t take the heat he should stay out of the kitchen so staffan how is mattias timmander doing this year and any impression on markus czeriew lost my roster list on hammerby does it look like they will make it to the eliteserien for next year and then get stomped if markus goes to boston well matt mattias timmander hasn t been playing with the modo elite league team yet just the modo junior team so i predict he needs a few more years here before he can join the b s i saw him play in the swedish championship game for junior players this year and he played very well a physical game but not the kind of rough stuff that ulfie does i suspect you would like to have a ulf type of player on the b s team too as for mariusz czerkawski he has had a great season for hammarby in division he scored if i remember correctly points this season and then we have to keep in mind that a point season in sweden is considered very good due to the limited number of games mariusz is djurgarden property he was just on loan to hammarby so he will play in elitserien next season unless the b s can get him of course i would say that mariusz has to be one of the most exciting player to watch in swedish hockey this season staffan staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson se r s h contact for swedish hockey
rec.sport.hockey	isles hockey ramblings well the patrick division got a little more interesting last night the islanders lost in ot and the devils tied the pens that means if the isles beat the devils on friday the will meet the caps in the playoffs however i have some more comments on the islanders and hockey in general that i need to get off my chest first of all with the islanders back to back lackluster performances against the whalers one may think that the islanders are out of shape these guys always suck wind in the nd period come on a little in the rd and run out of gas too soon it is unbelieveable how many one goal games these guys have lost anyway the games was pretty wide open the isles still have tons of trouble scoring the whalers played a golie in is st nhl start i think his name was lenarduzzi sp his nhl debut was the tuesday tie against the isles like i mentioned before this guy looked like the best golie on the planet for a while until he misplayed a mahlakov slap shot to go to ot i say it s because the isles don t shoot correctly has anyone else noticed this also i think it is really a shame for hockey when i guy like mick vukota gets as much ice time as he does this guy has about as much hockey talent as jiggs macdonald who did play hockey i think anytime he gets the puck it gets stolen and he always starts fights and gets needless penalties richard pilon is another guy who is on the ice to stir up crap and he s a defenseman he s got to be approaching negative infinity for his plus minus this guy gets beaten all the time why the need for such enforcers not only do fights slow the game down alot but it takes away from the guys who are really trying to play the game i ll be one of the few to admit i do enjoy a good fight once in a while but only when it s called for you know when a guy checks the goalie too hard in other words a violation of hockey ethics might cause you to get puched but there is no need to start crap when you are losing or becuase you can get away with it does anyone agree that referees need to be a little less lenient in the rd and ot i mean come on already i m sick of seeing teams pulling guys down holding guys etc just becuase the referee doesn t call it ot and late in the rd should be a time for strategy not physical prowess trying to set up a goal should be first and foremost if you are so afraid that the other team is going to score that you have to pull a guy down to prevent it you don t deserve to win in the first place just my honest opinion gary at hofstra accgsg vaxb hofstra edu accgsg hofstra bitnet
rec.sport.hockey	re pens info needed kevin l stamber writes if there s anyone who can help me on these items please let me know markus naslund i saw that modo lost early in the national tournament and that he was playing for the national team at the world championships any stats available any word on how he s playing when is he expected to join the club markus had a good season in modo in the swedish elite league scoring goals assists points and pim in games as daryl points out markus won t be joining the pens for this year s playoffs since the world championships starts april th but there is a good chance that markus will join the pens before next season modo though naturally wants to keep their superstars forsberg and naslund so the latest news on this is that modo is looking for personal sponsors for forsberg and naslund in order to match the kind of money they would receive in nhl daryl turner writes by the club i would assume you mean the pens don t hold your breath you aren t going to see naslund this year the world championship tournament doesn t start until april so nhl teams won t see any influx of europeans and no team playing in the wc will see a sudden influx of eliminated nhlers the earliest a player on a playoff bound team could join a wc team is the last game of the round robin and i doubt any coach is going to want to play short one player for that long actually swedish coach curt lundmark is thinking about leaving two spots open for additions from eliminated nhlers it is mats sundin and calle johansson that curt hopes can join the team although in a late stage of the tournament technically i seem to recall that you can leave spots open until hrs before the wc final staffan staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson se r s h contact for swedish hockey
rec.sport.hockey	expanding to europe dusseldorf in article apr abo fi mlindroos finabo abo fi marcus lindroos inf writes i didn t say every team must have a number of local players rather the european teams should get the chance to sign their top players before the rest of the league comes in i agree that birthplace isn t that important dusseldorfer eg of the german league average close to fans and they don t have a single german born forward lion milan made the european final four with fifteen canadian born players but nationality is going to be an issue in sweden and finland i think we really need an issue preventing lindros and mario from ending up being drafted by a european team and vice versa player trades are a different matter any player can end up anywhere after being drafted deg has many german born forwards in the team in fact the majority of players are german born deg had average in spectator arena my possible nhl european league site list switzerland berne zurich lugano and others germany dusseldorf cologne berlin munich mannheim rosenheim sweden stockholm gothenburg malmo gavle finland helsinki turku tampere italy milan france paris chamonix ruoen norway oslo austria vienna villach chech prag slovakia bratislava russia moscow st petersburg great britain netherlands petteri kortelainen
rec.sport.hockey	re sweden finland april in apr ericsson se etxonss ufsa ericsson se writes played in stockholm globe arena april sweden finland st swe jan larsson stefan nilsson patrik juhlin swe peter popovic mikael renberg thomas rundqvist nd fin mika nieminen ville siren mikko haapakoski fin timo saarikoski vesa viitakoski harri laurila sh rd swe fredrik stillman stefan nilsson patrik juhlin pp swe mikael renberg fin saku koivu mika alatalo shots on goal penalties attendance referee sweden min borje johansson finland min sweden well if things were different and i had my way the headline would be nhl european division regular season game stockholm storm vs helsinki tornado two games against every north american based team in all and this might have been the ninth and final regular season encounter between helsinki and stockholm the remaining games would involve paris dortmund milan a nice dream marcu staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson se r s h contact for swedish hockey
rec.sport.hockey	re leaf slump over on march roger maynard wrote in reply to an article by graham hudson will still have the jennings trophy at the end of the year potvin is very good and i do believe that he will be a star but i want to see him perform in the playoffs under pressure you don t think he is performing under pressure now the major differences between playoff hockey and normal hockey is play ing every other night which is physically exhausting and you play the same team in a consecutive string of games is this what you mean by pressure have you even thought about what you mean by pressure or are your thoughts like most of the rest of this drivel simply half baked this was mar ramsey cs laurentian ca for anybody who would like to check he went on in another article to say paraphrased playoff hockey is just an expression used by announcers to convince simple minded folks like yourself that what you are seeing is a better product than a regular season game now however in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes with a win over a tough whaler squad the leafs showed all doubters what playoff hockey is all about so roger what exactly is playoff hockey all about or is it a convenient phrase to use in certain circumstances only you see when you spout off with flame bait too many times sooner or later it catches up with you
rec.sport.hockey	re mogilny must be benched in article c c r sq acsu buffalo edu v p nk ubvmsb cc buffalo edu andrew w korbut writes anyway this game continued a trend that has sadly been taking shape for a couple of weeks now i had hoped it was fatigue or an aberration but i can t snow myself any longer alex mogilny must be benched as a disciplinary action and soon his explanation for ysebaert jumping between him and lafontaine to score the winning goal yesterday wasn t my guy ask patty about it actually this stuff from mogilny doesn t surprise me all that much about or weeks ago i read in the toronto sun a quote from alex it went something like sarcastically yep patty s the man he s responsible for the team s success i m a nobody around here i was going to post it at the time i must have forgot since nobody else was talking about him being a problem if i heard that in the locker room i d beat the shit out of him on the spot patty took responsibility in the press taking the heat off of alex that s because lafontaine is the epitome of class and a consummate team player yep i d beat the shit out of him too lafontaine really must be a team player makes you wonder what the islander management was thinking my question is what the hell is muckler doing whether he wishes to admit it or not the team is his to coach and if he can t do the job then maybe the job should be given to somebody who can gee kinda like alex s spot on the team isn t it dr d the devils advocate
rec.sport.hockey	re canadians another stanley cup in article mece ryevm ryerson ca mece ryevm ryerson ca writes im sorry to tell you this but unless they pull off another miracle there is no way the habs will win this year ever since they traded for ramage and since savard came off injury they have been playing shinny and you cant blame roy for the loss to washington when players could not score one goal i know you think i am a boston fan but all of my years have been dedicated to les habs david degan well it seems that the habs have been much talked about of late so here s my these guys have absolutely no concept of how to play in front of the damn net watch them in the offensive zone especially on the powerplay damphousse or lebeau will skate all over the bloody zone maybe pass to the point get it back skate some more pass it around but where s the shot answer the shot is totally useless because they lack a forward who stands in front of the net a la neely shanahan tocchet etc etc too bad demers won t put dipietro or leclair on the powerplay more often dammit even ewen would at least cause some disruptions montreal desperately needs a power forward with some talent imo then watch them in their own zone patrick roy is screened on everything say what you want about his performance imnsho he cannot stop what he cannot see and montreal s defence does a miserable job of clearing the front of the net last night against washington roy played a great game the first goal came on the most ridiculous goalmouth scramble i ve seen in a long time and he didn t have a hope in hell of stopping the shot the second goal came on a deflection of a shot he only partially saw anyway pathetic defence the third goal was en no wonder he gets pissed off at his defencemen dchhabra stpl ists ca
rec.sport.hockey	re vlad s playoff picks in article vzhivov cunews vzhivov alfred carleton ca vladimir zhivov writes wales conference adams division semifinal boston vs buffalo the bruins are playing some excellent hockey and with cam neely back and moog his old self again this should be a cake walk bruins in i m hoping for a fuhr miracle but i agree that boston will likely win the series goaltending is about equal top offensive players are about equal mogilny lafontaine vs oates juneau but buffalo has no answer to neely not to imply that neely is not a top offensive player btw in fact he s one of my favourites even though he s a damn bruin and the rest of the matchup wrt lineup favours boston anyway but i think it will go six quebec vs montreal this one is very tough to call montreal certainly has the experience factor but quebec is more talented imho it ll come down to the goalies i ll go with experience and roy canadiens in agreed here but montreal will be pushed to the limit is it just me or does everything montreal does in the playoffs come down to roy go habs final boston vs montreal will bruin domination continue in this rivalry yes moog has consistently outperformed roy in the playoffs after other stuff bruins in five i can t predict a montreal victory because i ve been watching them play for weeks and imo they severly need some tougher players especially to play in the garden last time they beat the b s but boston had a clear territorial advantage the victory was roy s at the same time i can t bring myself to predict the possibility of a loss so i ll just say i will not be putting money on this series patrick division semifinal pittsburgh vs ny islanders what can i say the pens are flying high and have the most talent in the league agreed ny doesn t have the goaltending to stop the onslaught independent of the trouble they have given pittsburgh this year pens in five which is credit to ny washington vs new jersey capitals in agreed here too but i think it will go at least six jersey has a decent team and washington has done poorly against the division this year pittsburgh vs washington if the caps had bill ranford i might see an upset but don beaupre just doesn t inspire my hopes penguins in i think they will use tabaracci more after beaupre gets shelled i don t think it will go six either maybe five conference final pittsburgh vs boston a replay of last year the penguins are just as good as months ago and the bruins are much improved but penguins in if pittsburgh plays boston imo they win in likely five possibly six they own the bruins if they play montreal i think it will go to seven and once again i won t be putting money on the seventh game i say seven because the habs have played pittsburgh very tough this season campbell conference norris division semifinal chicago vs st louis or minnesota blackhawks in chicago will win but i think in at least six chicago is not that good imo and remember that they take ridiculous numbers of penalties detroit vs toronto the leafs have had an excellent season but they ve been playing playoff hockey all year the habs under burns were the same way and always wilted in the playoffs red wings in very true the leafs have much to be proud of but they will soon find out why montreal did so lousy in the playoffs toronto might win two or three at mlg though wings in six maybe even seven final chicago vs detroit this will be a war fedorov will win it in ot red wings in it will be a war possibly the most intense playoff series of them all and yes i think detroit will win probert will have to come up big though smythe division semi finals vancouver vs winnipeg canucks in our first disagreement canucks are playing like shit they don t use their size at all which may explain why they get hammered by a team chasing them calgary winnipeg in six calgary vs los angeles this would have been tough to call except for three things the kings don t have a goalie gary roberts will be back the kings shot themselves in the foot by trading a proven winner paul coffey for a proven loser jimmy carson gretzky is just too weary to carry this group flames in this is also tough for me to call because i haven t seen the smythe enough i don t think roberts will be well enough to figure in coffey is a non issue who cares what carson has done before and never underestimate gretzky la in six final vancouver vs calgary flames in if it is these two calgary will not need six games but i think it will be la winnipeg anyway and la in seven because of home ice coference final detroit vs calgary red wings in wow must ve been tough to go against your team but let s see i picked la detroit detroit will win probably in six stanley cup final pittsburgh vs detroit three in a row and official dynasty status for the pens or can the wings complete a dream season well the wings are better in goal not sufficiently so though imho and have better d men however mario and the boys can sure score look for jagr to shine in the playoffs though i sure would love to see probert beat some sense into him the pens are just too much especially since detroit will have a tougher battle to get here penguins in if pittsburgh plays detroit it will go longer than five and i wouldn t bet against the wings they are very strong imo and nobody knows how strong because they ve been underachieving most of the year if forced to choose though i d have to take the penguins a side note vlad last week you said that selanne was a better player than gilmour no way he is a more talented pure goal scorer but aside from the age difference there is no way i would take him over gilmour on my team i m not asking for flames either btw i ve spent more than enough time arguing on behalf of selanne and i still say he s a great player but while he and gilmour are both dangerous offensively give teemu an edge gilmour does it all i know a lot of gilmour bashing goes on esp from flame fans but imo you guys are letting your dislike of gilmour cloud your judgement when it comes to his skill he is easily one of the best all round players in the nhl dchhabra stpl ists ca
rec.sport.hockey	nhl summary parse results for games played wed april boston ottawa first period boston roberts juneau boston wiemer juneau oates second period boston neely juneau murphy boston hughes richer kimble ottawa archibald rumble lamb third period ottawa boschman kudelski boston power play scorer g a pts hughes juneau kimble murphy neely oates richer roberts wiemer ottawa power play scorer g a pts archibald boschman kudelski lamb rumble washington ny rangers first period no scoring second period no scoring third period washington bondra pivonka cavallini washington bondra cote pivonka washington power play scorer g a pts bondra cavallini cote pivonka ny rangers power play no scoring ny islanders hartford first period ny islanders ferraro malakhov king ny islanders hogue thomas turgeon hartford yake poulin hartford yake nylander poulin second period hartford verbeek cassels weinrich pp ny islanders thomas king ferraro third period hartford burt sanderson cassels ny islanders malakhov hogue overtime hartford janssens poulin hartford power play scorer g a pts burt cassels janssens nylander poulin sanderson verbeek weinrich yake ny islanders power play scorer g a pts ferraro hogue king malakhov thomas turgeon pittsburgh new jersey first period pittsburgh daniels needham tippett new jersey lemieux semak driver pittsburgh stevens tocchet murphy pp new jersey zelepukin driver niedermayer second period pittsburgh lemieux stevens tocchet new jersey semak lemieux zelepukin pittsburgh mceachern jagr barrasso new jersey stevens guerin pellerin pittsburgh lemieux unassisted sh new jersey richer nicholls new jersey lemieux semak zelepukin third period pittsburgh mullen jagr lemieux overtime no scoring pittsburgh power play special goals pp sh total scorer g a pts barrasso daniels jagr lemieux mceachern mullen murphy needham stevens tippett tocchet new jersey power play scorer g a pts driver guerin lemieux nicholls niedermayer pellerin richer semak stevens zelepukin
rec.sport.hockey	re rheaume start just a quick note about manon s immediate future rumor has it usa today s spor ts page that she will be playing with tampa bay s affiliate in the echl i thin k it s been a couple of days she will supposedly be competing for the num ber goaltender spot i think after her performance which was damn good for someone who hasn t played squat all year that we ll be seeing a lot more of h er in atlanta in the years to come ward go blades bring home the turner cup again
rec.sport.hockey	re what s so bad about the new playoff format in article bu edu icop csa bu edu antonio pera writes what s so bad about the new playoff format do you really believe teams that finish fourth in their div deserve to be in the playoffs with the new format you have more of a chance to see more teams do you really want to see the bruins against the sabres umpteen times or would you rather see the bruins and the capitals in the secound round of playoffs there is really nothing inherently wrong with it but they tried it just a little over a decade ago and noone showed up for the early rounds in the playoffs whereas soon after they went to the divisional set up arenas were mostly filled in the early rounds the empirical evidence of the last two decades is that more people will show up to see the bruins play the sabre umpteen times than see the bruins play the captials in the first round maybe hockey has increased in popularity sufficiently that this will no longer be the case the experiment is worthwhile with the uneven distribution of the expansion teams but i prefer the divisional playoff gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re for sale edmonton oilers in article mcm b w w ersys edmonton ab ca mbevan ersys edmonton ab ca mark bevan writes he was already offered million for them from northlands coliseum but refused the offer i don t think he is going to sale i think he may decide to move the team to the states though where he can draw more revenue from the team pocklington just wanted to wake up the powers that be holding political office in northlands and in the business community that the oilers with their current lease arrangement are in a state where on a yearly basis they will likely have an operating loss based on normal hockey revenues and expenses that he did this was a good thing it is better he complain early and make the city aware of a potential looming crisis before he begins to lose millions and millions of dollars which would truly jeopardize the franchise pocklington s first option is not to sell or to move but to sell a minority share of the team to realize some of the appreciated value of the team and to get a better arena deal either in northlands or via a new building pocklington probably isn t going to get exactly what he wants but ultimately he will probably get enough or will sell to someone who will probably get enough there are a lot of risks in moving a team also one has to remember peter puck s principle it is better to spend other people s money than one s own if at all possible gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re hockey and the hispanic community in c i s bt odin corp sgi com rickc wrigley corp sgi com richard casares writes you ll have a hard time selling any sport to a community that can t play it on account of availability or financial reasons hockey is pretty much a sport for the white and well off what white yes well off definitely not hockey season ticket owners have the lowest average income of any of the four major north american sports and think of where the majority of hockey players come from from a farm out in boondock saskatchewan or weedville alberta when was the last time you saw a hockey league in the inner city the insurance alone is a big enough barrier the inner city isn t the only place that is poor i think the biggest barrier to hockey in the inner city is no ice to play on stace rick casares silicon graphics cubfan wrigley corp sgi com n shoreline blvd just wait till next year mountain view ca
rec.sport.hockey	re winning streaks you might want to clarify the game winning streak that pens streak is a playoff streak tied by the chicago blackhawks who had won in a row until they met the pens in the finals last year the game unbeaten so far is a regular season unbeaten streak but hey don t take it personally i m a flyers fan and two in a row is a stretch but with a healthy lindros recchi brind amour and tommy soderstrom they ll be there next year by the way since the flyers need defenseman what kind of trade would anybody suggest from the existing flyers roster since the scuttlebutt is that terry carkner won t be there next year and apart from him a piece of notebook paper would be better defense matt weaver properly found at ajs psuvm psu edu hey at least we re not the whalers
rec.sport.hockey	re washington to beat pitt in article rap psuvm psu edu robbie po rap psuvm psu edu writes in article apr mprgate mpr ca tasallot galaxy mpr ca mathew tasalloti says chances this year but it seems to me like washington is the only team that can stop the penguins from winning their next stanley cup really i think both the islanders and devils would have a better chance at the penguins than the capitals imo robbie po pgh penguins it won t be easy but it contact for the stanley cup will have greater rewards penn state lady lions champions mountains and valleys are rap psuvm psu edu straight wins better than nothing at all really what makes you think the islanders have a better shot they couldn t even beat the whalers in two games well since you re a pens fans the whole question is moot i think the teams most likely to beat the pens are the bruins nordiques and blackhawks but i don t think they can really do it tom galvin galvint taurus cs nps navy mil
rec.sport.hockey	re bruins vs canadiens talentwise in article apr amc com richard amc com richard wernick writes the bottom line is the bruins are the better team this year montreal fans have been screaming for years that their beloved canadiens deserve another cup since the removal of the french canadien rule they have been screaming foul welcome to league parity something the rest of the league has had for years even if the habs do beat boston in the playoffs they won t get by the pens i do agree with you boston is the more taleneted team the french canadian rule was an extremely short term feature when the universal draft was instituted in the sixties and only lasted for a few years and really didn t have any substantial effect during that period the canadiens stanley cup achievements were earned on a level playing field gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re playoff predictions ok i ll join in the fun and give my playoff predictions st round pitt vs nyi pitt in wash vs njd wash in bos vs buf bos in que vs mon mon in chi vs stl chi in det vs tor det in van vs win win in cal vs la cal in nd round pitt vs wash pitt in bos vs mon bos in chi vs det chi in win vs cal cal in rd round pitt vs bos pitt in chi vs cal chi in finals pitt vs chi pitt in walter
rec.sport.hockey	re giveaways in article apr philabs philips com jpc philabs philips com john p curcio writes that s probably because they couldn t find anyone to sponser it maybe uss could sponser the pittsburgh penguins us steel steel rod night close enough maybe in the s but not now steel is a dead industry in pgh no a giveaway night in the s for pgh would be baboon liver night sponored by the pittsburgh zoo lori
rec.sport.hockey	goalie masks i m starting an informal poll on goalie masks i d like to know who s mask you think looks the best i ve always like curtis joseph s of the blues the best anyway send your nominations to me or post your vote here on r s h my e mail adress is gtd a prism gatech edu thanks for your time go skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite go braves an effect on you mike patton faith no more go hornets go capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd a prism gatech edu
rec.sport.hockey	nhlpa poll stats nd uptade nd uptade here are the standings for the poll after votes points for st for nd point for th ea nhlpa game det chi van ny mtl pit was bos que cal asw la tor ase win buf phi sj min otw atlanta to win turner cup not in the game but person vote continue to send your votes in this format until april th approximately
rec.sport.hockey	re barasso the cheap shot master robert angelo pleshar rp andrew cmu edu writes after watching the pengiuns all year and as many other teams as possible i ve really noticed an increase in tom barasso s cheap shots this year and not noticed a corrsponding increase with other goaltenders have a look at ed belfour he also kicked john mclean of course he wasn t called for that belfour kicked gerrard gallant when the wings played the hawks a couple of weeks ago no penalty no review no suspension this was after he attacked bob probert in the previous period he was penalized for that there s no doubt in my mind that barasso is the dirtiest golatender since hextall he s also very good likewise belfour too bad he goes down so much ralph brian down bdown vis toronto edu
rec.sport.hockey	re plus minus stat lor cbnewsk cb att com edward lor writes player points subtraction lemieux lafontaine oates yzerman selanne this is wrong among lemieux s points we do not know how many are power play points we may be able to find out how many pp goal he scored but not how many pp assist he accumulated we also don t know the times he was on the ice but not credited on the goals the pens scored that is what my point really was there is not straight dependency between the and scored points apparently most of the netters have realized it by themselves
rec.sport.hockey	the hawks will return to the finals well now that the hawks have won the division the road is a little easier for the playoffs let toronto and detroit beat the hell out of each other while chicago sweeps st louis that just makes it easier in the second round with all the rest they will get and tor det getting none for the conf champ they will have a hard time versus the division but that div will be pretty battered also so the advantage goes to the hawks again then bring pitt and sure the hawks will probably lose but its better to get that far and lose than to not go brian
rec.sport.hockey	re washington to beat pitt in article apr ncsu edu fmsalvat eos ncsu edu frank michae salvatore writes what makes you think so i d like to understand your reasoning from my seat the caps don t really appear to believe that they can defeat pittsburgh therefore they don t i think their spirit was broken in last year s playoffs and hasn t really recovered i don t know what the season series numbers were but i believe that the pens won it i think that either the devils or the islanders will cause more problems for what is this spirit crap i m a caps fan and hope they win if they end up facing pittsburgh but i don t think the caps lose to pitt because of lack of spirit yes the penguins won the season series against the caps they ve won eighteen games in a row for god s sake did you ever think the penguins might be good and that s why they win i re read what i wrote and it didn t say exactly what i thought sure the pens are a better team they ve got size and the best skill players in the league they ve also got the best clutch goaltending they re the best team in the league but my point was the caps have not played to their ability level vs the pens since last year s choke and that s the mental problem the one they ve had for a number of years i tried to point out spirit mental preparedness will to win whatever you want to call it it s missing when the caps play the pens actually you re right it won t make any difference george
rec.sport.hockey	re mogilny must be benched dchhabra stpl ists ca deepak chhabra writes actually this stuff from mogilny doesn t surprise me all that much about or weeks ago i read in the toronto sun a quote from alex it went something like sarcastically yep patty s the man he s responsible for the team s success i m a nobody around here i was going to post it at the time i must have forgot since nobody else gee kinda like alex s spot on the team isn t it how can you assume it was a sarcastic remark for someone whose first language is not english i would interpret that comment to mean that he believes pat is the mvp on the team and that he is just one of the other normal players quite modest i might say
rec.sport.hockey	re leaf slump over in apr newshub ists ca dchhabra stpl ists ca deepak chhabra writes on march roger maynard wrote in reply to an article by graham hudson you don t think he is performing under pressure now the major differences between playoff hockey and normal hockey is play ing every other night which is physically exhausting and you play the same team in a consecutive string of games is this what you mean by pressure have you even thought about what you mean by pressure or are your thoughts like most of the rest of this drivel simply half baked this was mar ramsey cs laurentian ca for anybody who would like to check he went on in another article to say paraphrased playoff hockey is just an expression used by announcers to convince simple minded folks like yourself that what you are seeing is a better product than a regular season game now however in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes with a win over a tough whaler squad the leafs showed all doubters what playoff hockey is all about so roger what exactly is playoff hockey all about or is it a convenient phrase to use in certain circumstances only you see when you spout off with flame bait too many times sooner or later it catches up with you nice try deepak but tough whaler squad should have clued you in to the fact that my leaf woofing was tongue in cheek if playoff hockey is any more intense than the regular season variety then it is because the teams are facing each other at least consecutive times in days and hockey being the contact sport that it is some things will be carried over that might dissipate during the regular season but that is only for some of the players many of the rest who have been playing with injuries who miss their families or who like grant fuhr would really rather be playing golf don t really give a damn of course i can t say this for sure but i believe that this is fairly typical of human nature and i don t think that hockey players are above having what i consider typically human attitudes with the recent salary escalations the key players are actually losing money by participating in the playoffs the ones who regard the playoff take as some kind of a bonanza are fringe players who are unlikely to consistently be a force in the playoffs now i know some of you are going to come back with winning spirit and all of that crap but these players are professionals after all while they may love to play the game that love is entirely incidental to their purpose which is to make a decent living of course the coach is a professional as well and part of what he is being paid to do is motivate the players so if the coach does his job well enough the players may respond with a winning effort the second season is after all merely an exhibition the true champions of the league are the division winners the teams that come out on top after the long struggle of the season the stanley cup playoffs merely accord victory to the team that has remained healthy and hot the emphasis on the playoffs with their sudden death appeal has been promoted by the media and the owners with profit purely in mind even if pittsburgh loses the playoffs we all know that they were really the best team in the league over the year they proved it cordially as always rm roger maynard maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca
rec.sport.hockey	re playoff predictions smithw col hp com walter smith writes ok i ll join in the fun and give my playoff predictions st round pitt vs nyi pitt in wash vs njd wash in bos vs buf bos in que vs mon mon in chi vs stl chi in det vs tor det in van vs win win in cal vs la cal in nd round pitt vs wash pitt in bos vs mon bos in chi vs det chi in win vs cal cal in rd round pitt vs bos pitt in chi vs cal chi in finals pitt vs chi pitt in walter not bad you only got wrong cal over chi in and cal over pit in or to take the sc s lawren sms business uwo ca stephen lawrence western business school london ontario
rec.sport.hockey	re patrick playoffs look like this in article bson apr hal gnu ai mit edu bson gnu ai mit edu jan brittenson writes in article apr sei cmu edu gjp sei cmu edu george pandelios writes the pens won t be playing montreal because boston will win adams divisional play buffalo and quebec will make decent showings boston out of sheer determination will win a game against the pens but no more they have heart but the pens have too many big guns and too many ways to win if boston does indeed win the adams nothing is certain and indeed gets to play the pens then i think you ll find a very different boston team this year boston will use every trick in the book to shut down the pens offense something they didn t even try last year the pens weak spot is defense and goaltending if boston first i enjoyed reading your post second i disagree with the pen s weak spot being defense and goaltending for a couple of reasons barrasso has had a spectacular year no slow start consistently sharp gaa and leads the league in wins tommy deserves the vezina given the lack of respect he commands though i doubt he will win it the other reason concerns the pens team defense they are hovering around rd or th in the fewest goals allowed that is a big improvement for them and it indicates that they are playing better team defense can shut down the pens offense and get an early goal then you have a real game if the pens score first then it s practically over i don t think the pens have the discipline to stick to the team game if they re held scoreless minutes into the second boston doesn t have the guns of the pens but the pens doesn t have the defense goaltending and discipline of boston still boston can put the puck in the net remember that boston is not a run and gun patrick style team although they played run and gun hockey for the better part of the regular season who doesn t even neely backchecks all the way in behind his own net if necessary penalty killing will be a big factor boston are i believe over the last something short handed situations meaning they have scored shg while giving up ppg one in a lackluster game against ottawa i d say the series will go to or but i m much less certain whether it will be in favor of the pens or the b s their styles going into the playoffs are too different to make it predictable still i d place my bets on the pens i think my prediction is that if the b s can get the first goal in four of the games they ll take the series otherwise the pens will but i d rather wait and see whether the b s will actually get out of the adams to begin with buffalo quebec and montreal aren t exactly planning to call it a game and go home jan brittenson bson gnu ai mit edu we ll see it ll be fun george george j pandelios internet gjp sei cmu edu software engineering institute usenet sei gjp fifth avenue voice pittsburgh pa fax disclaimer these opinions are my own and do not reflect those of the software engineering institute its sponsors customers clients affiliates or carnegie mellon university in fact any resemblence of these opinions to any individual living or dead fictional or real is purely coincidental so there
rec.sport.hockey	re playoff telecasts in atlanta in article q noa d hsdndev harvard edu nhmas gauss med harvard edu mark shneyder writes in article iflyr y wb a f a andrew cmu edu mamatha devineni ratnam mr andrew cmu edu writes does anyone know if all the patrick division games are going to be televised on espn and abc if some games are going to be left out or blanked out by dumb southern abc affiliates i was wondering if anyone out there knows of any sports bars in atlanta which are frequented by hockey fans i don t want to miss out on any of the pens games i am sure that there are some islander fans now that the rangers are dead who would want to watch every pens islanders game in atlanta circle tuesday april th on your tv calendar espn will carry game from pittsburgh s civic arena or as they are advetising it pittsburgh vs th place partick div finisher personally bruins buffalo or montreal quebec city is a much better matchup but espn is hoping for a spoiler in the pens series which it s not likely to get the way mario has been playing for the past month or so i d personally prefer buffalo boston as a birthday gift from espn but i don t think the folks at espn will accomodate that for me espn has this inexplicable affinity for the patrick division it seems valerie hammerl some days i have to remind him he s not hammerl acsu buffalo edu mario lemieux herb brooks on claude acscvjh ubms cc buffalo edu lemieux top scorer for the devils but v pwwpz ubvms cc buffalo edu known for taking dumb penalties
rec.sport.hockey	re david polie s future in article hydra gatech edu gtd a prism gatech edu hrivnak writes in article gfmod e iv owc andrew cmu edu gp f andrew cmu edu gary james patalsky writes bad news for the patrick division next year caps gm david polie is reportedly trying to get a front office job with the nhl i can t believe polie has not been fired despite years of mediocrity yes yes the idiot s gone the idiot s gone i wish this happened before he traded hrivnak anyway the idiot s gone he s not gone yet the position opening is down to polie and the sabres gm gerry meehan i think i d like to see meehan gone valerie hammerl some days i have to remind him he s not hammerl acsu buffalo edu mario lemieux herb brooks on claude acscvjh ubms cc buffalo edu lemieux top scorer for the devils but v pwwpz ubvms cc buffalo edu known for taking dumb penalties
rec.sport.hockey	re playoff predictions st round pitt vs nyi pitt in it looks like a safe bet nyi has been bagging it of late nyi and njd have a showdown friday night for the honour of pittsburg anyway pigsburg in wash vs njd wash in i think that njd have a solid team and will compete with wash i agree though with wash in bos vs buf bos in the b s have been playing awesome hockey in the last two weeks the only question is how long will it last fuhr is a dud bos in que vs mon mon in it seems to me that mon is much like the van no chemistry the habs seem to be not in stride que in chi vs stl chi in stl should not be in the playoffs chi in det vs tor det in i am a diehard leaf fan but it seems that the leafs offense is shutting down in the last week can they turn it around against detroit as i recall the last couple of time these two teams met the leafs were pummelled i don t know if bobbie is allowed in canada yet if he is det in if not det in van vs win win in upset in the making here another team with bad chemistry there is something gone foul among linden momesso and bure win in cal vs la cal in anybody that says that la could possibly beet cal does not watch the smythe a whole lot la is a bunch of geritols cal in nd round pitt vs wash pitt in it seems to me that pigsburg has some egos on their team their saving grace though is bowman he can put anybody in their place however if pigs have a quick first round they may be a little too high wash could be there for a surprise having said that i will say pitt in bos vs mon bos in mon will not be there bos is surprising me of late cam is great the couple of wins against que last week have sold me with the b s b s in chi vs det chi in yikes this will not be pretty but det is running like a machine of late they ve had a non busy end of the season in which they played like killers det in win vs cal cal in cal has a solid team a little weak in the nets cal will out muscle win cal in rd round pitt vs bos pitt in i hate pitt my logic eludes me the dark side will take over and give bos the extra push it needs to dump pitt there may be something to this if you think of the rivalry bos in chi vs cal chi in finals pitt vs chi pitt in no no no we have bos vs det i don t know what to say here both teams will be flying and overdue i will go with goaltending and muscle and say det in jake
rec.sport.hockey	re plus minus stat in article ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes in apr sol uvic ca gballent vancouver uvic ca greg ballentine writes you have completely missed the point with the selke trophy it goes to the best defensive forward this is the forward who forgoes points to help his team out defensively it is an unsung hero of sorts yes lemieux and gilmour are good defensive players but they play a more offensively oriented style than a true defensive forward this year you mean guys that check but can t score the guys who can both check and score shouldn t be candidates is that right the selke candidate forwards main purpose on a shift is to prevent goals from being scored not to score them when lemieux or gilmour play their number one purpose is to score defence is secondary especially considering the line that plays against them is probably a defensive one that is why they are not selke candidates when tarasov called bob gainey the best player in the world it was assumed that he meaned the best technical player the one who knew every intricacy about playing hockey and never made a technical error and who was it that made this assumption all of your friends maybe sorry greg but people aren t enough you can assume all that you want to but if you think tarasov was serious then you are an idiot someone posted something about this assumption being lost in translation it was a few months ago whoever this was please repost it i agree with this assessment bob gainey may have been the best technical player ever right greg did you see this in the sun or something what did you think of claude provost gainey was nothing more than a journeyman player who s outstanding abilities were entirely political he might have had a col lection of defensive skills but he had absolutely no offensive skills at all none but perhaps you think that the abilities to pass the puck shoot the puck and deke a goalie or defenseman are not technical skills gainey is the best defensive forward ever i stand by that assessment he was a very good player who belongs in the hall of fame did you ever watch him play he never made a technical error babbling deleted gee greg the pundits were calling gilmour the best two way player in the league way back when he was with st louis i would have expected you to have picked up on that who are these pundits gilmour was good with st louis but he was not the best two way player in the game when he was with them you have overhyped gilmour on this net for months he is a very good forward but hardly the best in the nhl gregmeister
rec.sport.hockey	re plus minus stat in article tnclus tele nokia fi hahietanen tnclus tele nokia fi writes in article apr sol uvic ca gballent vancouver uvic ca greg ballentine writes is a good stat because it is the only stat that i am aware of that takes into account defensive play it isn t a measure of defensive play it takes into account offense and defence all aspects of play if we are interested of real all round players the power play stats should be considered too because the power play is also one aspect of play there is still something to be done with these player evaluation tools imo any good player should score on power plays because of the man advantage very good power play scorers tend to become overrated because their point totals are inflated by power play points tends to expose these overrated players such as brett hull john cullen and dave andreychuck given the opportunity to play power play consistently any player can inflate his totals gregmeister
rec.sport.hockey	re plus minus stat in article mala bc ca apland mala bc ca ron apland writes in article apr sol uvic ca gballent vancouver uvic ca greg ballentine writes to adjust first calculate a teams goals scored pp goals scored goals allowed pp goals allowed when they were penalty killing divide this number by to take into account of the fact that there are players on the ice and each is responsible for the team a players adjusted is his raw team adjustment btw if anyone could calculate and post adjusted ratings it would be greatly appreciated i might find the time to do so but don t count on it i have a database filter set up for the player stats when it is posted for the end of season i ll repost the team averages you don t need to go through the complicated team adjustment you are using all you need is the team average by summing all the individual players and divide by the total number of players on the team this will be a little distorted because the players who have been traded recently will have come with scores based on their original teams this shouldn t distort it too bad though if you want to look at individual players from this perspective then go ahead you ll require the original player stats though question if a team uses players in a season do you merely divide the total by if so a player who plays in only game is considered equally valuable as a player who plays in all of them another way of looking at the same thing is to compare the deviation from the mean for the team of the player to the standard deviation for the team i ll post both since the standard deviation for each team is different i am unsure how transferable between teams that these stats are shouldn t the average standard deviation in the league be used i am interested in seeing each method but i still think that mine is the best if for no other reason than familiarity gregmeister
rec.sport.hockey	minnesota recalls mcgowan help derian hatcher s game misconduct penalty was rescinded by the nhl allowing the minnesota defenseman to play in the north stars last two regular season games hatcher was given the penalty during a fight at the end of a loss at st louis on sunday april but the league didn t rescind the game misconduct penalty shane churla received the stars recalled center cal mcgowan from their top minor league club in kalamazoo mich to replace churla the above is courtesy of the washington times on line service now here s where i need help if anyone out there has a tape of tuesday s chicago minnesota game please contact me terms will be favorable also if anyone can tape tonight s minnesota detroit game please contact me this could be quite important once again i will make it worth your trouble thanks to all rec sport hockey contact for minnesota north stars and maintainer of the r s h faq file mitch mcgowan a k a kalamazoo wings minnesota north stars hamlet u washington edu st kilda saints toronto blue jays
rec.sport.hockey	re helsinki stockholm nhl expansion mlindroos finabo abo fi marcus lindroos inf writes not too low perhaps but surely not as high as that of an european nhl division the finnish team for example would contain all players currently on the national team plus a top class foreigner or two they would be in an entirely different league than tps or jokerit both of whom have perhaps a dozen players of international class if even that why settle for a minor league when you could have the best it is no matter what you call the teams jokerit and tps or helsinki tornado and turku typhoon the best palyers in finland would eventually end up in those teams anyway if they were in the big league i d rather spend marks to watch the helsinki tornado play montreal the ny rangers or los angeles than marks for the privilege to see jokerit vs jypht or even djurgardens if there s nothing like the nhl period unrealistic for now maybe we should first just expand finnish league to allow teams from baltic countries to entry then others will get interested in the idea that maybe one should settle something bigger the ultimate goal as you want it would be european division in nhl btw does that make a final with an europan team against norht american
rec.sport.hockey	re playoff predictions everybody please send me your predictions for the stanley cup playoffs i want to see who people think will win please send them in this format or something comparable winner of buffalo boston winner of montreal quebec winner of pittsburgh new york winner of new jersey washington winner of chicago minnesota st louis winner of toronto detroit winner of vancouver winnipeg winner of calgary los angeles winner of adams division above winner of patrick division above winner of norris division above winner of smythe division above winner of wales conference above winner of campbell conference above winner of stanley cup above i will summarize the predictions and see who is the biggest internet guru predicting guy gal send entries to richard madison rrmadiso napier uwaterloo ca ps i will send my entries to one of you folks so you know when i say i won that i won
rec.sport.hockey	re the hawks will return to the finals the hawks won the norris div and sealed their fate it s bad luck to win the norris the hawks will sweep the blues in their dreams but will lose in in reality i predict that in the game with the blues belfour will go down on his knees time s and will spend the rest of the time looking behind him self butcher will pound roenick and the warthawks have no one tough enough to prevent it bye bye wart hawks
rec.sport.hockey	my predictions smythe division vancouver vs winnipeg jets in the jets have played the canucks tough the last three games everyone is healthy for the jets i m biased calgary vs los angeles flames in from what i have seen the kings have looked flat lately i just can t see them getting by the flames final jets in the jets haven t lost to the flames in they will but it will be a close series that will come down to how well roberts has recovered i don t think he ll be and while it will help it won t be enough norris division chicago vs st louis minnesota chicago in against the blues against the stars detroit vs toronto wings in the wings should be able to shutdown gilmour and andreychuk chelvadae is more experienced than potvin final hawks in brutal series probert and chelios will go at it belfour is better than chelvadae imho conference final hawks in it hurts but the hawks are more experienced and that will carry them through to the final prince of wales conference adams division boston vs buffalo bruins in b s can check juneau is darn good and neely the sabres rely too much on lafontaine and mogilny quebec vs montreal montreal in classic battle the inexperience will hurt the nords this year final bruins in habs will be hurting from their series with the nords and boston has been able to control the scorers on the habs patrick division pittsburgh vs islanders devils pens in one word mario washington vs devils islanders caps in devils in i think the caps can beat the isles but not the devils tabaracci has been strong in goal and if he plays like last year he could carry the team it doesn t matter though final pens in two more words stevens jagr cup final pens in three last words tocchet murphy barrasso the only thing i don t like about this is that the pens woofers are going to be out in full force again i don t mean the regular penguin fans it s just like the bunch around here that if these predictions are true will post like nuts while the jets are winning but we won t hear from again when they lose oh yeah next year s cup prediction jets in over the nords daryl turner r s h contact for the winnipeg jets internet umturne ccu umanitoba ca fidonet or please route through tkachuk over to zhamnov up to sel nne he shoots he scores the jets win the cup the jets win the cup essensa for vezina housley for norris sel nne for calder
rec.sport.hockey	re plus minus stat in apr sol uvic ca gballent hudson uvic ca greg ballentine writes the selke candidate forwards main purpose on a shift is to prevent goals from being scored not to score them when lemieux or gilmour play their number one purpose is to score defence is secondary especially considering the line that plays against them is probably a defensive one that is why they are not selke candidates gainey is the best defensive forward ever i stand by that assessment he was a very good player who belongs in the hall of fame did you ever watch him play he never made a technical error i watched him over his entire career i have never seen a player and that includes russell courtnall and davie keon screw up as many breakaways as bob gainey and i will never forget the time denis potvin caught gainey with his head down you have been sold a bill of goods on bob gainey gainey was a plugger and when the press runs out of things to say about the stars on dynasties they start to hype the pluggers grant fuhr essa tikkannen butch goring bob nystrom bob gainey doug jarvis derek sanderson wayne cashman bob baun bob pulford ralph backstrom henri richard dick duff and so on cordially as always rm roger maynard maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca
rec.sport.hockey	wfan steve chief on hours greetings steve summers and the chief were on hours last night shmoozing sports i unfortunately missed it those of you who saw it can you please provide a synopsis thanx the czar of mainframe computing jbe musicb mcgill ca mcgill university i m too sexy for cobol habs it doesn t look good let s go expos peter peter pumkin eater knew a chick but couldn t meet her saw her brother one fine day sucked his cock now he s gay andrew dice clay disclaimer needless to say that the opinions expressed by the czar represent those of the faculty staff and students of mcgill university
rec.sport.hockey	pens box score pens nj devils first period scoring pittsburgh daniels needham tippett nj devils c lemieux semak driver pittsburgh stevens tocchet murphy ppg nj devils zelepukin driver niedermayer penalties pgh stevens roughing njd pellerin double minor cross checking njd zelepukin tripping njd stasny holding pgh taglianetti roughing njd lemieux roughing pgh jagr tripping second period scoring pittsburgh lemieux murphy tocchet nj devils semak lemieux zelepukin pittsburgh mceachern jagr barrasso njd stevens guerin pellerin pittsburgh lemieux unassisted shg nj devils richer nicholls nj devils lemieux zelepukin penalties pgh stevens roughing njd mckay roughing pgh mullen hooking pgh tocchet roughing njd stevens slashing njd lemieux unsportsmanlike conduct pgh u samuelsson cross checking pgh barrasso double minor spearing served by mceachern njd holik cross checking njd lemieux roughing third period scoring pittsburgh mullen jagr lemieux penalties njd daneyko interference pgh stevens roughing njd holik roughing pgh match penalty game misconduct njd zelepukin tripping pgh stevens roughing njd daneyko roughing overtime scoring no scoring penalties no penalties shots on goal pittsburgh nj devils goalies barrasso shots saves billington shots saves ref devorski linesmen gauthier vines lori contact for the penguins lli cs cmu edu
rec.sport.hockey	re giveaways in article qi l kqr access digex net steveg cadkey com steve gallichio wrote john p curcio jpc philabs philips com responded to my drivel steveg cadkey com steve gallichio writes i still am surprised that no one has tried giving away the goodies at the end of the game the two problems with that of course are that you would want to make sure the first people in the building would be assured of getting them probably redeemable vouchers and that the building managers want to avoid at all costs delaying people as they leave the building if for instance the goodies are given to people as they exit i went to the new jersey devils carvel ice cream puck night tm last year to see the beloved bruins play the pucks were given out at the end of the game i could just imagine what would have happened late in the third if the bruins were winning it figures after i posted the first article i found out that the whalers are going to be using coupons for the the giveaway on friday night i believe that is is the some big corporation probably a bank flying disk night i think that we could all see the potential for danger here all in all i have seen a whole bunch of giveaways land on the ice and it never ceases to amuse me i m just thankful for the players that no one has yet to sponsor lead pipe night at any arenas that s probably because they couldn t find anyone to sponser it maybe uss could sponser the pittsburgh penguins us steel steel rod night close enough naah it d probably bounce off of jay caufield sg i was at a cincinnati cyclones game a year ago when the local country station sponsored a kazoo giveaway after a particularly bad call by the underexperienced echl ref it was kazoostorm time down on the ice i thought this was a pathetic display by the fans but they were rightfully unhappy jason
rec.sport.hockey	re canucks clinch bure to score playoff goals in a previous article steveg cadkey com steve gallichio says ron apland apland mala bc ca writes quinn will resign as head coach this is no secret and hopefully they will bring in someone who looks at the game spatially and institutes some team disciplined play how about keenan give him what he wants gm and coach and have quinn upstairs as president i was under the impression that rick ley was in line for the canucks job should quinn step off the bench ley coached in the canucks organization bring back harry neale at least he was witty ad freenet carleton ca rachel holme
rec.sport.hockey	re hockey and the hispanic community rickc wrigley corp sgi com richard casares writes in article bu edu icop csa bu edu antonio pera writes the presence of the new team in miami i can t say south florida it s too long makes me think of an interesting question can you sell the hispanic community on hockey miami is hispanic this community has no experience and no previous exposure to hockey that i know of the teams in ny and la which also have big hispanic groups do not seem to try to woo this group what will miami do could they get spanish language tv and radio coverage you ll have a hard time selling any sport to a community that can t play it on account of availability or financial reasons hockey is pretty much a sport for the white and well off well suffice to say that it is a sport for those able to make the substantial investment in equipment etc but here s something do you think that the availability of in line skates and road hockey could contribute to a rise in awareness of ice hockey i would argue this is having an effect here kids play ice hockey in the winter and road hockey in the summer with in line skates
rec.sport.hockey	re suhonen will not go to jokerit in tvartiai vipunen hut fi tvartiai vipunen hut fi tommi vartiainen writes according to the inside information alpo suhonen won t be the next headcoach of jokerit it s pretty sure that boris majorov will continue although owner of the team previously said that he will chance the coach tommi wrong information they just announced that suhonen has made a deal with jokerit tommi
rec.sport.hockey	re mogilny must be benched in article wong sfu ca wong fraser sfu ca sam s wong writes about or weeks ago i read in the toronto sun a quote from alex it went something like sarcastically yep patty s the man he s responsible for the team s success i m a nobody around here how can you assume it was a sarcastic remark for someone whose first language is not english i would interpret that comment to mean that he believes pat is the mvp on the team and that he is just one of the other normal players quite modest i might say well i don t recall assuming anything except perhaps that the columnist who reported the incident was telling the truth i e the sarcastic impression came from him steve simmons besides to my knowledge alex has a pretty fair grasp of the english language and his recent comment after the detroit game would indicate that this remark is what i think it to be very low dchhabra stpl ists ca
rec.sport.hockey	re plus minus stat in article ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes in apr sol uvic ca gballent hudson uvic ca greg ballentine writes gainey is the best defensive forward ever i stand by that assessment he was a very good player who belongs in the hall of fame did you ever watch him play he never made a technical error i watched him over his entire career i have never seen a player and that includes russell courtnall and davie keon screw up as many breakaways as bob gainey and i will never forget the time denis potvin caught gainey with his head down you have been sold a bill of goods on bob gainey gainey was a plugger and when the press runs out of things to say about the stars on dynasties they start to hype the pluggers grant fuhr essa tikkannen butch goring bob nystrom bob gainey doug jarvis derek sanderson wayne cashman bob baun bob pulford ralph backstrom henri richard dick duff and so on these players all are pretty good players they are the depth that the dynasties had to win stanley cups they tend to be the very good second line guys who would be first liners on most weaker clubs in the nhl they were all important to their clubs probably several of these stanley cup winning teams would not have won the cups they did if it were not for the depth provided by these players they compare to rick tocchet and ron francis of the penguins very good players who can lead lesser teams francis hartford tocchet philly who provide the depth to the team that is currently best in the nhl as a defensive forward there have been none better than bob gainey that doesn t mean he was the best player or even the best forward the canadians had at that time but he was excellent at what he did gainey could dominate games with his defence he didn t need to get goals to dominate he shut down the opposition and was thus valuable there has never been anyone any better at doing this not ever gregmeister
rec.sport.hockey	re washington to beat pitt in article kkq acsu buffalo edu v r w ubvmsd cc buffalo edu ralph l d ambrosio writes in article apr mprgate mpr ca tasallot galaxy mpr ca mathew tasalloti writes if the penguins get out of the patrick they will win the cup however their hardest task is to get out of that division i m sure that washington will most definitly throw a rench into the penguin plans i m a canucks fan not that i think much of their chances this year but it seems to me like washington is the only team that can stop the penguins from winning their next stanley cup i was under the impression that the penguins has had the caps number for most of the season mathew tasalloti mpr teltech ltd vancouver bc canada of course no one asked me i always interject my opinions on matters i have no concern over go islanders playoffs here we come go jets for and last year the capitals had the pens number up until about game of the playoffs john horstmann
rec.sport.hockey	hockey on tv in the bay area not hi all i don t get the sport s channel and i m desparate for some playoff action especially the cannucks does anyone know of a sports bar on the bay peninsula that will be showing hockey games i m looking for something between redwood city and mountain view thanks a lot greg
rec.sport.hockey	goalie mask poll here is an update on the goalie mask poll first since so many people gave me their best i decided to give pts for their favorite pts for nd for rd if you e mailed a response with only one i gave it pts please feel free to send me your other favorites if you only sent one before also votes are still welcome any mask you like will do as i have received votes for players not in the nhl please mention what team they play for though so here are the up to date results so far player team pts votes ed belfour chicago andy moog boston curtis joseph st louis brian hayward san jose grant fuhr buffalo ron hextall quebec clint malarchuk buffalo manon rheaume atlanta ihl john casey minnesota rick wamsley toronto retired thanks to all that voted and keep em coming go skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite go braves an effect on you mike patton faith no more go hornets go capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd a prism gatech edu
rec.sport.hockey	re washington to beat pitt in article c j c ged taurus cs nps navy mil galvint cs nps navy mil thomas galvin writes in article rap psuvm psu edu robbie po rap psuvm psu edu writes in article apr mprgate mpr ca tasallot galaxy mpr ca mathew tasalloti says chances this year but it seems to me like washington is the only team that can stop the penguins from winning their next stanley cup really i think both the islanders and devils would have a better chance at the penguins than the capitals imo really what makes you think the islanders have a better shot they couldn t even beat the whalers in two games yes but as has been mentioned many times before the islanders play at the talent level of their opponent since hartford is pitiful the islanders played pitiful since pittsburgh is great the isles will most likely play great this is most likely due to inexperience and very poor shooting to greg yes i have noticed that the islanders couldn t hit the broad side of a barn with the puck if they were two feet in front of it does anyone have shooting percentages i don t know if that would help since they often miss the net completely but it might shed some light on the subject and my playoff pool is running exact rules to be posted tomorrow but don t hesitate to send in picks keith keller let s go rangers let s go quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs when i want your opinion i ll give it to you
rec.sport.hockey	re goalie masks my vote goes to john vanbiesbrouck his mask has a skyline of new york city and on the sides there are a bunch of bees beezer it looks really sharp keith keller let s go rangers let s go quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs when i want your opinion i ll give it to you
rec.sport.hockey	re espn tonight swartzjh rosevc rose hulman edu writes has anyone heard what game espn is showing tonight they said they will show whatever game means the most playoff wise i would assume this would be the blues tampa game or the minnesota red wings game anyone heard for sure jeff swartz it s going to be the stars wings game
rec.sport.hockey	who picks first according to the fan here in t o ottawa has won the daigle e sweepstakes they didn t mention why but san jose had more goals than the sen sens so i have a hunch this is why ottawa would pick first susan
rec.sport.hockey	re stop predicting in article apr ncsu edu cdkaupan eos ncsu edu carl david kaupang writes it is really annoying to see all of these predictions on the net who really cares who you think will win please stop with the predictions we all know the caps are going to win the cup so let it go at that in the words of doktor kultur in the ottawa citizen remember to unhook the nitrous oxide before you leave the dentist chair go jets for once in the playoffs please i beg of you paul badertscher uwovax uwo ca
rec.sport.hockey	re stan fischler keenan stuff in article apr news columbia edu gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes the oilers will charge to eat in the press room next year there was an article in one of the toronto papers about this a few months ago probably the globe and mail any ethical journalist even a sports journalist should not accept free meals from a team in any case which was the one of the points the article was making admittdly most sports reporting is mostly with any ethical standards gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re plus minus stat in article apr alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca gerald olchowy writes it is meaningless to compare one player s plus minus statistic with another players out of the context of the role and the playing time of the players involved it s just as meaningless to compare goals assists pim and any other stat i can think of each player is asked to take a unique role for his team the contexts will never be the same from one player to another playing on the same team or different teams and yet awards are given and promotions received based in part on these meaningless stats the operative words are in part stats must be interpreted tempered with other information one has about the player to compare jagr s and francis s plus minus is ridiculous and absurd and comparing jagr s and francis s points is just as ridiculous and absurd but not more ridiculous and absurd as comparing goals assists points for selanne lindros juneau potvin and the other rookies in the league and yet how about looking at them for what they are and enjoy the game ron
rec.sport.hockey	this year s vs next year s playoffs well since someone probably wanted to know here s this year s playoff matchups on the left and what the matchups would be next year under the new alignment and playoff matchup rules the same teams make the playoffs under next year s rules and three of the first round matchups are the same que mtl chi stl van win pit chi pit chi nj stl buf stl was det que tor nyi tor mtl cal bos van was van buf win nj win que cal bos det mtl la nyi la jim murawski sr software engineer office administrative computing and fax information services jjm andrew cmu edu carnegie mellon university office ucc forbes avenue pittsburgh pa le mieux le magnifique soixante six claude non there are days until clinton clinocchio leaves office too many
rec.sport.hockey	flyers notes the flyers closed out the season last night with their th straight victory a ot winner over the hartford whalers the ot game winner came from dimitri yushkevich just his th of the season and his first game winner the flyers never led up until that point in the game for the whalers the loss marked an nhl record th ot loss this season roster move gord hynes was called to to play in place of ryan mcgill injuries ryan mcgill injured his hand in a fight and was scratched lines eklund lindros recchi beranek brind amour dineen lomakin butsayev conroy faust acton brown galley bowen yushkevich hawgood carkner hynes dominic roussel game summary i didn t get tv coverage of the game and since it was stormy in these parts i didn t have the best radio coverage either here s the box score followed by a few things i did pick up first period hartford nylander philadelphia recchi lindros brind amour pp penalties verbeek har holding carkner phi roughing houda har interference second period hartford burt cunneyworth kron philadelphia bowen eklund recchi hartford nylander zalapski sanderson penalties galley phi major game misconduct spearing verbeek har major game misconduct spearing brown phi tripping zalapski har tripping brind amour phi slashing third period hartford kron sanderson cassels pp philadelphia beranek lomakin yushkevich philadelphia faust brind amour roussel penalties houda har tripping hawgood phi holding overtime philadelphia yushkevich faust penalties none power play philadelphia of hartford of goalies philadelphia roussel shots saves hartford lenarduzzi on the first hartford goal gord hynes misplayed the puck at the flyers blue line and nylander stripped him and took off the recchi goal was a on with lindros the bowen goal was just a puck he threw at the net got a good carom and it ended up behind the goalie on the second nylander goal he got three whacks at the puck before it went in this is the most frustrating part of the flyers defense take the body and if they get one shot and beat you fine don t give them another chance carkner galley and mcgill are all terrible about this i ll bet money at least one of them was the closest flyer to the play that s all i have my radio got bad after that and i was lucky to know who it was that scored much less how from what i heard roussel had a very strong game after the game gene hart asked bobby taylor to pick the three stars of the season rather than of the game it was garry galley for his career high point total i m surprised that a former goalie wouldn t look closer at his defensive play tommy soderstrom for his team record tying shutouts in only about a season and mark recchi for his all time high team single season scoring mark but here s the odd part he couldn t decide between lindros and recchi for number if he picks recchi as after he had a hard time choosing between him and lindros doesn t that make lindros what you wanna know my three stars of the season well since you asked eric lindros eric dominates a game simply by stepping out onto the ice the difference between the team s record with him and without him is no accident i believe that the team could have been almost as successful without recchi there is no question that this team is significantly better with eric lindros on it and i think that he will deservedly wear the c on his jersey next season tommy soderstrom shutouts was second in the league to only ed belfour and tommy didn t have a chris chelios booo in front of him he also didn t play a complete season due to heart problems sentimental edge here my family has a history of heart problems there s no question in my mind that tommy soderstrom is this teams goalie of the future and if roussel complains again about being number look for him to be traded within years mark recchi again you can t argue with an all time team high single season scoring mark there are an awful lot of teams that didn t have a single player get as many points plus mark is the only flyer to play the entire season not a tough choice honorable mentions rod brind amour topped his single season high point total which he set last year the difference was that he wasn t on the top line this year and didn t get as much playing time then again he didn t get the defensive attention that he got last year from the other team either dimtri yushkevich was the teams most consistent defenseman yes he made rookie mistakes but he was usually fast enough to make up for them i have a feeling that with his shot he ll score a few more points next year without giving up anything in his own zone and i suspect that he ll be the teams top defenseman in years to come garry galley was the team s point leader from defensemen again there are some things you just can t argue with and he battled with chronic fatigue syndrome he certainly deserves kudos for only missing one game and that was against his wishes under doctors orders but his defensive play often negates his offensive contribution a little more caution and a little bit smarter in his own end will make him a much more important part of the team next year brent fedyk was the leagues biggest improvement over last years point total but consistency became a problem for him a couple misc notes mostly for mailing list members tom misnik a member of the mailing list would like to exchange e mail addresses with any list members who want to keep in touch over the summer if you re interested you can send him mail at att acr org tmisnik the flyers end the season game below in th place their best winning percentage since going in within the division th in patrick at home they finished th overall will draft th in next years entry draft quebec had the st rounder though they scored as many goals as they allowed the straight wins is the most since they won in a row in i will be sending out final stats as soon as i get the issue of the hockey news that contains them since there are no more games for me to go to i have no other way of getting them i hope you ve all enjoyed this years hockey season as much as i have knowing the future that we have coming to us made missing the playoffs one more time almost bearable flyers team record watch eric lindros goals assists points rookie records club record goals club record points eric lindros dave poulin brian propp brian propp ron flockhart eric lindros dave poulin ron flockhart bill barber pelle eklund mark recchi goals assists points club record goals club record points reggie leach mark recchi tim kerr bobby clarke tim kerr bobby clarke mark recchi bill barber rick macliesh bobby clarke bill barber rick macliesh reggie leach more than games flyers career years player points best prior season mark recchi penguins rod brind amour flyers garry galley kings brent fedyk red wings that s all for now pete clark jr rsh flyers contact and mailing list owner
rec.sport.hockey	my predictions of a classic playoff year here is yet another prediction for them great playoffs you may laugh at your convenience adams division i hate the ne name divisoin bos vs buf bos in the b s are hot lately mon vs que mon in this will be the series to watch in the first round bos vs mon mon in this may be a bit biased but i feel the canadiens will smarten up and start playing they played two months ago i e bench savard patrick division pit vs njd pit in it wont be a complete cake walk there be a few lumps in the cake batter was vs nyi was in this will not be an exciting series imo pitt vs was pit in washington will be tired after the nyi norris division chi vs stl chi in stl will get a lucky game in tor vs det tor in this like mon vs que will be another intense series to watch chi vs tor tor in potvin will be settling in nicely by this point smythe division van vs win van in teemu is great but vancouver better as a team cal vs lak cal in gretzky is great but calgary has been on fire lately sorry for the pun um no i am not van vs cal van in this will be a great series but van has proven they will not lie down and get beat wales conference finals pittsburgh vs montreal montreal in montreal imho is the only team that has a chance against pittsburgh campbell conference finals vancouver vs toronto toronto in potvin will be series mvp stanley cup finals toronto maple leafs vs montreal canadiens the classic stanley cup final matchup also a dream come true montreal wins the stanley cup in the th game in double overtime roy and potvin are spectacular throughout the series and share series mvp if that is possible vincent damphouse nets game winner from a brilliant pass by brian bellows canadiens star denis savard watched his buddies play from the owners box nursing that splinter on his thumb which has left him on the disabled list since the first game of the playoffs awww shucks yee haa poof and i wake up well that is my predictions i hope and dream they come true and you can stop laughing anytime paul die hard habs fan living with die hard leafs fans
rec.sport.hockey	ahl playoff results ahl calder cup playoff game s played on providence springfield ot baltimore binghamton utica rochester ot cape breton fredericton game s scheduled for capital district at adirondack providence at springfield baltimore at binghamton utica at rochester moncton vs st john s at halifax series stati plural of status adirondack leads cdi springfield leads providence baltimore leads binghamton utica leads rochester st john s leads moncton cape breton tied w fredericton full calder cup playoff schedule and results home team in caps if necesary first round springfield indians vs providence bruins gm springfield providence gm springfield providence gm providence springfield gm providence at springfield gm springfield at providence gm providence at springfield gm springfield at providence cd islanders vs adirondack red wings gm adirondack cdi gm cdi at adirondack gm adirondack at cdi gm adirondack at cdi gm cdi at adirondack gm adirondack at cdi gm cdi at adirondack baltimore skipjacks at binghamton rangers gm baltimore binghamton gm baltimore at binghamton gm binghamton at baltimore gm binghamton at baltimore gm baltimore at binghamton gm binghmaton at baltimore gm baltimore at binghamton utica devils vs rochester americans gm utica rochester ot gm utica at rochester gm rochester at utica gm rochester at utica gm utica at rochester gm rochester at utica gm utica at rochester moncton hawks vs st john s maple leafs gm st john s moncton gm moncton vs st john s at halifax gm st john s at moncton gm st john s at moncton gm moncton vs st john s at halifax gm st john s at moncton gm moncton vs st john s at halifax cape breton oilers vs fredericton canadiens gm fredericton cape breton ot gm cape breton fredericton gm fredericton at cape breton gm fredericton at cape breton gm cape breton at fredericton gm fredericton at cape breton gm cape breton at fredericton bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl and ecac contact for rec sport hockey go usa hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey ny division ii state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu congrats to the boston bruins adams division champions phoenix suns pacific division champions
rec.sport.hockey	re this year s vs next year s playoffs let s fill in some winners here well since someone probably wanted to know here s this year s playoff matchups on the left and what the matchups would be next year under the new alignment and playoff matchup rules the same teams make the playoffs under next year s rules and three of the first round matchups are the same que mtl chi stl van win pit chi pit chi pit chi nj stl buf stl nyi det was det que tor nyi det nyi bos tor mtl cal bos det van was van bos van buf win nj win bos van que cal bos det que cal mtl la nyi la just my thoughts chris downec rpi edu
rec.sport.hockey	re my predictions of a classic playoff year in article apr ac dal ca paul ac dal ca writes here is yet another prediction for them great playoffs you may laugh at your convenience adams division i hate the ne name divisoin bos vs buf bos in the b s are hot lately mon vs que mon in this will be the series to watch in the first round bos vs mon mon in this may be a bit biased but i feel the canadiens will smarten up and start playing they played two months ago i e bench savard patrick division pit vs njd pit in it wont be a complete cake walk there be a few lumps in the cake batter was vs nyi was in this will not be an exciting series imo pitt vs was pit in washington will be tired after the nyi norris division chi vs stl chi in stl will get a lucky game in tor vs det tor in this like mon vs que will be another intense series to watch chi vs tor tor in potvin will be settling in nicely by this point smythe division van vs win van in teemu is great but vancouver better as a team cal vs lak cal in gretzky is great but calgary has been on fire lately sorry for the pun um no i am not van vs cal van in this will be a great series but van has proven they will not lie down and get beat wales conference finals pittsburgh vs montreal montreal in montreal imho is the only team that has a chance against pittsburgh campbell conference finals vancouver vs toronto toronto in potvin will be series mvp stanley cup finals toronto maple leafs vs montreal canadiens the classic stanley cup final matchup also a dream come true montreal wins the stanley cup in the th game in double overtime roy and potvin are spectacular throughout the series and share series mvp if that is possible vincent damphouse nets game winner from a brilliant pass by brian bellows canadiens star denis savard watched his buddies play from the owners box nursing that splinter on his thumb which has left him on the disabled list since the first game of the playoffs awww shucks yee haa poof and i wake up well that is my predictions i hope and dream they come true and you can stop laughing anytime paul die hard habs fan living with die hard leafs fans i only have one comment on this you call this a classic playoff year and yet you don t include a chicago detroit series c mon i m a boston fan and i even realize that chicago detroit games are the most exciting games to watch chris downec rpi edu
rec.sport.hockey	re who picks first ottawa picks first because they had fewer wins during the season the first tiebreaker keith keller let s go rangers let s go quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs when i want your opinion i ll give it to you
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl team in milwaukee newsgroups rec sport hockey subject re nhl team in milwaukee summary expires sender distribution organization marquette university department mscs keywords in article apr walter cray com cbetz radioman cray com charles betz x cf eng writes bradley center in milwaukee is home to the milwaukee admirals minor leauge hockey team the owner of the admirals sorry i can t remember his name either owns or at least shelled out the majority of the funds to build the bradley center lloyd pettit married into allen bradley corp ab com family and owns the admirals he donated the bradley center and the new pettit national ice center supposedly he was approached by the nhl about an expansion franchise but turned it down because he thought the franchise fee of million was too high this is not the way i have heard it see lloyd as he is affectionately referred to by milwaukeeans and bob uecker bought the bradley center to get the nhl to come here like i said i don t know whether this story is true or just a rumor but if it s true don t look for an nhl team in milwaukee anytime soon the admirals aren t going to be forced out of the building and you won t see an nhl club and a minor league club in the same building especially since the nba s milwaukee bucks play there as well yeah the bucks the milwaukee wave soccer the admirals the marquette warriors concerts and a bunch of other things jason hanson w wisconsin ave marquette university milwaukee wi ham radio n lea ae jason studsys mscs mu edu n lea n ary nocal ca usa na
rec.sport.hockey	re finland sweden vs nhl teams was helsinki stockholm nh you mention could cut it as stars in the nhl even rexi in his prime was more of a good regular in new york edmonton than a superstar in his own right although some blamed that on lack of effort on his behalf i think that the ny management made a mistake and remember how edmonton called reksa in the middle of the season to win the cup why did they call him yeah we ve had a tendency to beat ourselves in the past i almost knifed my brother in anger when sweden scored two in the final minute of the wc semifinals back in or what about the three goals antero kivela let in with five minutes to go against the russkies in lake placid ugh o k that was bad luck if penguins have the same kind of luck this year in the playoffs they ll never win the cup they are still the best team howl howl gargle howl gargle howl howl howl gargle howl gargle howl howl gargle gargle howl gargle gargle gargle howl slurrp uuuurgh prostetnic vogon jeltz marko poutiainen mep phoenix oulu fi
rec.sport.hockey	playoff pool well i looked at the scoring plan i had and have decided to modify it here is the new finalized scoring pick st round winner way off on games pick within one game pick exact games pick nd round winner way off on games pick within one game pick exact games pick conference champ way off on games pick within one game pick exact games pick stanley cup winner way off on games pick within one game pick exact games pick loser in series goes pick loser in game decided in ot these are now final anyone needing a copy of the entry sheet email me at the address below keith keller let s go rangers let s go quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs when i want your opinion i ll give it to you
rec.sport.hockey	re nhlpa poll partial stats results in article ofnmao iv a kyd andrew cmu edu young soo che yc andrew cmu edu writes all these people who send in their polls should take a closer look at njd they are a very deep team with two very capable goalies and excellent forwards and defensemen shooter in richer an all around do it all in todd chef stasny master of a thousand dishes power play captain stevens take a look at the numbers or play with them and see for yourselves yup i agree with ya i think devils can beat red wings easily so i think all those who send in their votes should try all these diffrent teams before voting i think islanders and quebec are much better then i had expected cobra sex is not the answer sex is the question yes is the answer e mail cobra chopin udel edu
rec.sport.hockey	re finland sweden vs nhl teams was helsinki stockholm nh in article apr abo fi mlindroos finabo abo fi marcus lindroos inf writes jutila was a failure i think while makela and ari haanpaa had an on again off again career with the islanders both players had to play in the minors of course i like our players i just don t think the names you mention could cut it as stars in the nhl even rexi in his prime was more of a good regular in new york edmonton than a superstar in his own right although some blamed that on lack of effort on his behalf ruotsaleinen was a more than competent nhl er his choice of where to play when did not bear on his hockey playing ability he was crucial to the oilers stanley cup victory in the one without gretzky because he made an oiler power play which was lethargic that year until he arrived slide into overdrive the oilers missed him more the following year than kurri and i think the oilers would have make the finals if ruotsaleinen has stayed around the following season and would have beaten pittsburgh with ruotsaleinen and a healthy messier and delayed pittsburgh s dynasty by a season gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re flyers notes could someone post the flyers record with and without eric lindros in the lineup i have a guy that is trying to compare the quebec flyers trade to the dallas minnesota trade in the nfl hershel walker i just need the stat to back up my point that eric will be one of the next great players thanks john
rec.sport.hockey	who will be pick in nhl draft i recently bought a pack of prospect hockey cards which had various players that were coming into the nhl i got this particular card of a russian named viktor kozlov it says many scouts believe he will be the pick in another guy is quoted as saying he s as good as mario lemieux anyone know who this guy is via dlg pro v
rec.sport.hockey	plus minus stat post of newsgroups rec sport hockey from j david sms business uwo ca james david subject plus minus stat organization university of western ontario date fri apr gmt nntp posting host sms business uwo ca lines i m not defending bob gainey frankly i don t care for him all that much but your dismissal of him as something less than an effective hockey player is tiresome it has no basis in anything how many calders did he win i think it was four go ooops that should read selke forgive me for my insolence congenially as always jd james david j david student business uwo ca j david sms business uwo ca james david western business school london ontario
rec.sport.hockey	re stop predicting in article apr rose com jack petrilli rose com jack petrilli writes on april cdkaupan eos ncsu edu carl david kaupang wrote c it is really annoying to see all of these c predictions on the net who really cares c who you think will win please stop with c the predictions we all know the caps are c going to win the cup so let it go at that c haa that s one of the things i find most interesting in this newsgroup it s a good way of cluing into the collective wisdom of the average hockey fans that doesn t mean they re always right however for example the habs are going to come out of the adams and hardly anyone believes that right now jack it s hard to be humble when you re perfect well as long as we re being unduly cocky here it s obvious that the pens will cone out of the patrick division not the caps and also that they will win thier third stanley cup collective wisdom is a very polite way of putting it i don t know if i d be so gracious and for what it s worth probably not much i think the habs will come out of the adams too not new long absent mikey d mike dellinger computer lab consultant sutherland hall computer lab and grill university of pittsburgh
rec.sport.hockey	hockey hispanic market in article saross starbase spd louisville edu saross starbase spd louisville edu stacey a ross writes in c i s bt odin corp sgi com rickc wrigley corp sgi com richard casares writes you ll have a hard time selling any sport to a community that can t play it on account of availability or financial reasons hockey is pretty much a sport for the white and well off what is this crap i m only interested in intelligent discussion if you can t answer my question just say so can anyone else answer the ques
rec.sport.hockey	re hawks vs leafs lastnight in article acps ryevm ryerson ca raj ramnarace acps ryevm ryerson ca writes did anyone else see this game last night just like a playoff game lots of hitting but i was disappointed by the video goal judge on all replays joe murphy s goal shouldn t have counted it didn t go in net and according to the tsn broadcasters the video goal judge said that he saw the water bottle on top of the cage move so he assumed the puck went in this is terrible hope crap like this doesn t occur in the playoffs the game would have ended in tie i thought the red light went on thus in the review the presumption would be to find conclusive evidence that the puck did not go in the net from the replays i say even from the rear the evidence wasn t conclusive that the puck was in or out in my opinion gerald
rec.sport.hockey	brown university ordered to restore two women s varsity teams i found this press release from trial lawyers for public justice on another system and thought it would be of interest on campuses where the administration or the athletics department wants to eliminate the women s ice hockey team women athletes tlp win sex discrimination ruling brown university ordered to restore two women s varsity teams to national desk sports writer contact lynette labinger home or ray marcaccio both of trial lawyers for public justice washington april the u s court of appeals for the first circuit in boston has upheld a u s district court order requiring brown university to immediately reinstate its women s gymnastics and volleyball teams to full varsity status the ruling in cohen et al v brown university is the first appeals court decision in the nation applying title ix to intercollegiate athletics trial lawyers for public justice tlpj is the national public interest law firm representing the women athletes this ruling makes clear what we have said all along if a school wants to eliminate teams before women have their fair share of opportunities to participate they can only eliminiate men s teams said tlpj executive director arthur bryant co counsel in the case the class action filed april charged brown with violating title ix of the education amendments of the federal law that prohibits sex discrimination by all educational institutions receiving federal funds brown terminated the two women s teams as university funded sports in may allowing them to continue to compete against varsity teams if they could raise their own funds for uniforms travel coaches and all other expenses they had also been denied admission preferences for use in recruiting new members this is a major victory for women and the cause of equal rights said tlpj lead counsel lynette labinger of providence s roney labinger universities across america need to reevaluate their programs quickly title ix is the law and it s going to be enforced three similar title ix appeals await decision colorado state university indiana university of pennsylvania iup and colgate university are asking federal appeals courts to overturn court orders requiring them to reinstate or establish specific women s varsity teams continuing its cutting edge title ix activities tlpj is representing women athletes at iup in addition to labinger and bryant tlpj s legal team included ray marcaccio of blish cavanagh and amato deluca of mandell deluca schwartz in providence and sandra duggan of philadelphia the national women s law center women s sports foundation and national association for girls and women in sports filed an amicus brief in support of tlpj s appeal
rec.sport.hockey	re hawks vs leafs lastnight in apr alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca gerald olchowy writes in article acps ryevm ryerson ca raj ramnarace acps ryevm ryerson ca writes did anyone else see this game last night just like a playoff game lots of hitting but i was disappointed by the video goal judge on all replays joe murphy s goal shouldn t have counted it didn t go in net and according to the tsn broadcasters the video goal judge said that he saw the water bottle on top of the cage move so he assumed the puck went in this is terrible hope crap like this doesn t occur in the playoffs the game would have ended in tie i thought the red light went on thus in the review the presumption would be to find conclusive evidence that the puck did not go in the net from the replays i say even from the rear the evidence wasn t conclusive that the puck was in or out in my opinion it seemed pretty conclusive to me the puck clearly hit the crossbar and then came down on the line and the announcers admittedly homers kept harping about how they must have had a different view upstairs because it was obvious to them and i would have thought to anyone who saw the replay that the puck didn t go in the referee originally signalled no goal but the video replay judges initiated contact with the referee to claim that a goal was in fact scored this to me is unheard of seeing stuff like this happen gives me a bad feeling about the leaf chances this year cordially as always rm roger maynard maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca
rec.sport.hockey	nhl final point standings individual leaders by total points final standings note games played and points per games not accurate player team gp g a pts ppg prj pim m lemieux pit lafontaine buf oates bos yzerman det turgeon nyi selanne win mogilny buf gilmour tor robitaille la recchi phi sundin que stevens pit bure van tocchet pit roenick chi janney stl sakic que juneau bos hull stl andreychuk tor fleury cal francis pit housley win ciccarelli det damphousse mon hawerchuk buf shanahan stl muller mon jagr pit modano min messier nyr sanderson har reichel cal bellows mon fedorov det thomas nyi coffey det kurri la bradley tb brind amour phi ronning van bondra was cassels har murphy pit bourque bos granato la verbeek har ridley was duchesne que c lemieux nj suter cal lebeau mon roberts cal semak nj hatcher was d hunter was courtnall min brown stl ricci que kisio sj craven van g courtnall van nolan que king nyi amonte nyr gagner min lindros phi hogue nyi nieuwendyk cal pivonka was borschevsky tor dahlen min richer nj emerson stl nedved van chelios chi carson la zhamnov win kvartalnov bos steen win linden van mullen pit larmer chi donnelly la kovalenko que gartner nyr khristich was sheppard det garpenlov sj iafrate was gretzky la zalapski har graves nyr anderson tor zelepukin nj maciver ott dineen phi chiasson det ysebaert det galley phi mceachern pit nicholls nj keane mon flatley nyi s young que shannon win fedyk phi blake la olausson win makarov cal smith chi elynuik was stevens nj adams van tucker tb macinnis cal sutter chi bodger buf nemchinov nyr driver nj ruuttu chi yake har turcotte nyr sandstrom la malakhov nyi ward van otto cal kontos tb leach bos poulin har tkachuk win savard mon norton nyi cullen tor cote was eklund phi olczyk nyr semenov van davydov win miller stl poulin bos klima edm dionne mon baker ott rucinsky que weight edm zhitnik la maclean nj corson edm sweeney buf simpson edm hawgood phi johansson was miller was manson edm desjardins mon schneider mon goulet chi leclair mon drake det lumme van gaudreau sj gill tor turgeon ott probert det wood buf ranheim cal zamuner tb tinordi min paslawski cal ruzicka bos elik edm kudelski ott mcsorley la shaw ott lidstrom det stastny nj ellett tor tikkanen nyr niedermayer nj racine det mcphee min millen la chambers tb holik nj clark tor khmylev buf creighton tb krushelnyski tor kurvers nyi crossman stl kovalev nyr craig min krupp nyi momesso van kamensky que numminen win pearson tor graham chi leetch nyr ciger edm beers tb reid bos lapointe que sjodin min weinrich har borsato win zezel tor burr det donato bos benning edm howe det guerin nj hull ott d sweeney bos nylander har beranek phi wesley bos matteau chi broten min leeman mon dalgarno nyi mellanby edm primeau det gilbert chi mullen nyi presley buf leschyshyn que zubov nyr mironov tor bureau tb brisebois mon heinze bos smehlik buf lemieux chi yushkevich phi evason sj mcinnis nyi noonan chi gallant det kennedy det hough que gusarov que mactavish edm buchberger edm janssens har u samuelson pit sydor la duchesne min falloon sj sandlak van carpenter was kron har ferraro nyi kravchuk edm plavsic van ron sutter stl cole tb odgers sj fitzgerald nyi fetisov nj korolev stl kypreos har andersson tb huddy la rich sutter stl slegr van svoboda buf patrick nyr jones was lamb ott osborne tor may buf eagles win brunet mon t green nyi stern cal lidster van haller mon tippett pit peluso ott dimaio tb brady ott freer ott cavallini que lachance nyi shaw bos berg tor ozolinsh sj klatt min loach la todd edm ashton cal mcbain ott gelinas edm bautin win krygier was johnson min acton phi barnes win huffman que sutton buf mckay nj konstantinov det pellerin nj sillinger det volek nyi lindberg cal evans phi hamrlik tb gilchrist min churla min kasparaitis nyi loney pit courtenay sj wilson sj t pederson sj lomakin phi druce win hannan buf corriveau har bourque nyr hiller det maltais tb burt har johansson cal marchment chi diduck van podein edm berehowsky tor babych van audette buf chorske nj bassen stl hatcher min kucera chi wilson stl macoun tor king win beukeboom nyr carkner phi neely bos foligno tor christian chi errey buf gavin min mcllwain tor daigneault mon ramage mon smith edm paek pit murphy chi dipietro mon m pederson sj nattress phi carbonneau mon yawney cal kasatonov nj roberts bos macdermid was odjick van conacher la cavallini was erickson win straka pit erixon nyr murphy bos ledyard buf butsayev phi ulanov win carter sj glynn edm boschman ott rumble ott stanton pit murzyn van musil cal may was foote que odelein mon andersson nyr archibald ott taylor la lowe nyr domi win mccrimmon det konroyd det zombo stl butcher stl zmolek sj fergus van skrudland cal pantaleyev bos pearson que c j young bos smail ott hardy la broten nyr barr nj taglianetti pit ewen mon bergevin tb finn que lefebvre tor m sullivan sj ojanen nj reekie tb lindsay que ramsey pit valk van jelinek ott needham pit lowry stl rychel la mcgill phi stapleton pit richardson edm rouse tor daneyko nj ogrodnick det s king nyr joseph edm petit cal williams sj b smith min bozon stl ronan mon dirk van hunter van luongo ott berube cal wilson cal vujtek edm konowalchuk was snuggerud phi murray chi donnelly buf dahl cal kasper tb more sj quintal stl ludwig min muni chi lazaro ott norwood stl featherstone bos murphy ott debrusk edm wells nyr kimble bos corkum buf dahlquist cal gordijuk buf hurlbut nyr boivin phi moller buf cunneyworth har petrovicky har mcrae stl cirella nyr maley sj daniels pit hughes bos lalor win k samuelson pit mckenzie har kocur nyr loewen ott houlder buf t sweeney bos douris bos keczmer har greig har day har werenka edm tatarinov que mcdonough sj hill mon k brown chi loiselle nyi hudson edm hedican stl roberge mon ahola sj mcintyre nyr anderson was houda har hartman tb wilkinson sj hammond ott barrasso pit kennedy win eastwood tor quintin sj r brown chi godynyuk cal rice edm murray bos wiemer bos berezan sj marois nyi mallette nj hynes phi gilhen tb chase stl vukota nyi zettler sj lafreniere tb propp min belanger mon kerr har shuchuk la bergland tb vaske nyi carney buf dinnen ott albelin nj patterson buf ladouceur har russell chi lang la lipuma tb brown nj kozlov det savage was bruce sj byers sj conroy phi van allen edm richer bos wolanin que leach har prokhorov stl kruse cal richter nyr bawa sj osiecki min matvichuk min pedersen har jennings pit essensa win ray buf mckim bos faust phi smolinski bos fogarty pit hervey tb picard sj reese cal romaniuk win thompson la pilon nyi giles stl baron stl cheveldae det hankinson nj mcdougall edm felsner stl ruff tb petrov mon black min morris sj walter van hrivnak win wakaluk min dufresne mon cronin phi smyth cal hrudey la marsh ott casey min berry min ranford edm belfour chi rivers tb forslund cal capuano tb djoos nyr cummins det otevrel sj kolstad sj osborne tb wood sj brickley win eakins win simon que bennett chi gillis har carlyle win nylund nyi blue bos watters la woolley was whitmore van stauber la w young tb roussel phi twist que fiset que jablonski tb soderstrom phi healy nyi burke har hextall que roy mon vernon cal joseph stl brown phi grimson chi barnaby buf ratushny van zholtok bos sullivan nj duncanson nyr beaufait sj bowen phi macdonald buf esau que d smith min vial det brown buf draper buf karpa que tichy chi gosselin har fortier la hayward sj mcgill tor bergeron tb potvin la berthiaume ott racicot mon wregget pit ciccone min puppa tor hackett sj fitzpatrick nyi billington nj potvin tor vanbiesbrouk nyr mclean van moog bos beaupre was baumgartner tor bales bos burridge was chabot mon d alessio har littman tb parks nyi semchuk la st amour ott cimellaro ott cote tb marcinyshyn nyr o neill win raglan tb williams la charron mon ciavaglia buf cloutier que hamr ott wamsley tor hirsch nyr o connor nj j messier nyr knickle la chapdelaine la shannon tor agnew har waite chi langway was riendeau det hebert stl tabaracci was tugnutt edm caufield pit hasek buf pietrangelo har irbe sj terreri nj fuhr buf sidorkiewicz ott maurice richard
rec.sport.hockey	re bruins vs canadiens un you better add at least another plus to the pederson for neely trade the bruins also received a number round draft pick didn t play great this year but wesley s still a decent defenseman and the bruins got pederson back eventually anyway pat ellis p s go bruins go umaine black bears number hockey east regulars season champions hockey east tournament champions paul kariya hobey baker award winner ncaa div hockey tournament champions m a i n e ggggooooooo bbbllluueeee
rec.sport.hockey	keenan signs plus walsh well i just read in the boston globe that while not confirming or denying anything walsh may end up with the rangers organizations as an assistant coach keenan has talked with walsh in the past he came up to see kariya as he will be coaching him in the worlds funny i guess he got to watch the ferraro brothers as well i m not sure if walsh will go but if keenan is getting and walsh even gets that s a pay raise for walsh not to mention a nice career move anyone from new york hear anything about this pat ellis p s go bruins go umaine black bears number hockey east regulars season champions hockey east tournament champions paul kariya hobey baker award winner ncaa div hockey tournament champions m a i n e ggggooooooo bbbllluueeee
rec.sport.hockey	re div and conf names in apr hubcap clemson edu jwodzia dlite uucp john wodziak writes sorry roger but mr basketbal should what he really means here ie he should have said that he hopes fans in the american southeast can follow the names of the divisions the odds that these people other than those who are displaced notherners who are probably already fans is on the order of the proverbial snowball s in hell i am not at all clear about what you are trying to say here if you asked somone who had never heard of hockey before if la played in the smythe division what do you think that the response would be what if you asked this person if la played in the west division the naming of divisions after long dead entrepreneurs is unnecessary obfuscation i am glad that the names are being changed for another reason the names patrick smythe norris adams and campbell are all the names of so called builders of the game this is the same type of thinking that put stein in the hall of fame this is absolute nonsense the real builders of the game are richard morenz howe conacher orr etc if you are going to name the divisions after people at least name the divisions after people who deserve it yes these people deserve recognigtion as hockey greats but the old division names took into account messers patrick norris smythe and the prince who had alot more to do with the origins of the league than people who came into an already established situation it is much easier to be an element of change hardly the established situation existed prior to smythe et al the stanley cup was a challenge trophy up for grabs to whatever team could successfully mount the challenge what our dear founders did was formalize the challenge they created a closed league an oligop olistic professional system in the interests of making money wheth er or not that system has contributed to better hockey is certainly debatable we are however stuck with their invention and that de bate is academic the point to be made however is that people played hockey and people enjoyed watching hockey long before smythe and his pals showed up or a standout in an existing situation than it is to be someone who creates a new situation if you want to honor players like bobby orr than i m sure you can find a reason to name a torphy after him such as best offensive defenseman what s wrong with best defenceman period was there ever a better defenceman was there ever a better player and if you think that bruce norris contribution was somehow more significant than bobby orr s then in the interests of education why don t you take a poll and find out how many people know who norris was but you don t have to do you no i can t for the reasons i gave above i m in the same boat as jason and i grew up with the current divisonal names and learned them when i was about years old and who played in what division if a year old american can learn this why would it be hard for an occasional fan to pick up on who plays in what division so you don t feel that you should have to make the effort to remember that vancouver plays in the west division or pacific or whatever other intuitively understandable moniker is chosen oh now i see your point your intention has been to alert us to the erosion of purity i ll bet you like hockey because it s for the most part played by whites of european extraction probably not in my case i m sure of this what you said would be like me saying that all maple leafs fans are as biased closed minded ignorant and of course you neatly deleted jason s jingoistic rant about the game losing its canadianization quoting me out of context does more to erode your credibility than it does mine my position is clearly progressive and is anything but biased closed minded ig norant arrogant i will grant you arrogant and moronic as you just because someone a doesn t like what mr basketball is doing b voices their opinion and c likes the senerio of you going to antartica does not mean that you have the right to insult them nice try john but for a flame to be truly effective you have to display at least enough intelligence to earn your target s respect cordially as always rm roger maynard maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca
rec.sport.hockey	team pool tabulations thanks for the people who have entered this year s team pool here is a summary of what was picked st round pittsburgh new jersey chicago st louis boston buffalo vancouver winnipeg calgary los angeles detroit toronto washington new york islanders people picked new jersey quebec montreal nd round pittsburgh washington new york islanders boston quebec montreal detroit chicago toronto calgary vancouver los angeles winnipeg rd round pittsburgh boston quebec washington detroit chicago toronto vancouver calgary los angeles finals pittsburgh boston detroit toronto quebec los angeles chicago good luck to all mike burger my canada includes quebec ontario mmb lamar colostate edu the maritimes the prairies and florida a beginning computing ta stud four months a year over students served royal canadian air farce university of michigan colorado state university
rec.sport.hockey	anyone have official shorthanded goal totals does anyone out there have the shorthanded goal totals of the nhl players for this season we re trying to finish our rotisserie stats and need shg to make it complete
rec.sport.hockey	re my predictions of a classic playoff year in article ac dal ca paul ac dal ca writes stanley cup finals toronto maple leafs vs montreal canadiens the classic stanley cup final matchup also a dream come true montreal wins the stanley cup in the th game in double overtime you know after i finished laughing i thought this would be a great final two canadian teams with lots of tradition and all that don cherry nonsense behind them and a nail biter finish of course i would prefer a vancouver montreal final with vancouver scoring the final goal pity neither will happen steve holland
rec.sport.hockey	re truly a sad day for hockey a fine year history came to a close tonight as the minnesota north stars or norm s stars whichever you prefer lost to the red wings by a score of the stars goals were scored by mike mcphee and ulf dahlen who netted two including the final one in franchise history with less than a minute to play yes it s a shame that the nhl lost a fine team in one of the best hockey markets in the country being a north stars fan it is sad to see all of the tradition of the last years get thrown into oblivion at the hands of a truly crappy owner hopefully the nhl will install an expansion franchise in the twin cities within the next five years even if this is the case a lot has been lost in the north stars move kea
rec.sport.hockey	re possible canadian wc team nlu xenon stanford edu nelson lu writes centers mark messier n y rangers messier was not invited due to his nagging injuries while the press made an issue of it and attempted to link it to the rangers internal political woes mike keenan repeated that to messier personally during the msg press conference it makes sense messier would probably have not declined the invitation if it were made for publicity gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
rec.sport.hockey	how difficult is it to get penguin tickets the subject line says it all is it terribly difficult to get tickets to penguins games especially now that they are in the playoffs would it be easy to find scalpers outside of the igloo selling tickets dean money dmoney magnus acs ohio state edu
rec.sport.hockey	usenet hockey draft week standings well i m back from tokyo so here are the standings after the april update andrew usenet hockey draft standings week posn team pts proj cash last posn dave wessels bob hill gilles carmel seppo kemppainen the awesome oilers hillside raiders mak the knife paranjape jan stein this years model rangers of destiny tapio repo frank s big fish the underachievers on thin ice go flames littlest giants mopar muscle men lindros losers die penguin bandwaggoners samuel lau calgary alberta boomer s boys general accounting office delaware wombats migods menschen wellsy s buttheads dec nh rocky mountain high fife flyers gerald olchowy dave snell fluide glacial gaoler smegheads the young and the skateless sam his dogs neural netters youngbucs artic storm soft swedes jeff horvath milton keynes kings hamster from hoboken kuehn crushers le fleur de lys yan the man loke legion of hoth simmonac the finnish force ice legion streaks brian bergman goaldingers t c overachievers grant marven bozrah bruins real bad toe jam houdini s magicians skriko wolves rec sport hockey choices buffalo soldiers bemybaby lippe randy coulman lamp lighters steven and mark dream team indianapolis bennies tom bloom county all stars bruins phil and kev s karma dudes smithw iowa hockeyes doug bowles the great pumpkin non shooting seamen frank worthless aik exiles invisible inc brad gibson cougarmania kortelaisen kovat plp fools david wong john zupancic garryola gary bergman fan club staffan axelsson chubby checkers derrill s dastardly dozen chocolate rockets ken decruyenaere fisher dirtbags kodiaks no namers the campi machine bsc oranienburg the kamucks arsenal maple leafs ellis islanders mombasa mosquitos zachmans wingers edelweiss bjoern leaguen dirty white socks wormtown woosbags neil younger hurricane andrew king suke larry het schot is hard votenooct bloodgamers bruce s rented mules teem kanada frank s follies oklahoma stormchasers spuds pond slime psv dartmouth mark sanders blue talon stanford ice hawks aye carumba kokudo keikaku bunnies timo ojala haral cluster buster dirty rotten puckers apricot fuzzfaces the lost poots nesbitt gary bill pens dynasty garys team arctic circles seattle pftb late night with david letterman le groupe mi go bruins scott glenn flying kiwis team gold closet boy s boys wild hearted sons boutch andy y f wong wembley lostweekenders mckees rocks rockers book em danno s bushbabies dree hobbs go habs go goddess of fermentation tim rogers convex stars einstein s rock band princeton canucks tap hubert s hockey homeboys buttered waffles my team bob s blues furleys furies hunters collectors les nordiques satan s choice dr joel fleishman sundogs pierre mailhot slap shot marco san jose mahi mahi the leafs rule jeff nimeroff stimpy adg zeta the dreamers east city jokers daryl turner riding the pine flowers darse billings chappel s chumps lana inc spinal tap jimparker enforcers jeff bachovchin big bad bruins mike mac cormack sydney ns can bulldogs voyageurs absolut lehigh republican dirty tricksters henry s bar b q dr d and the s o d bunch of misfits robyns team yellow plague ninja turtles team melville acadien darman s dragons kuta papercuts great expectations cobra s killers cherry bombers jayson s kinky pucks killer apes kaufbeuren icebreakers umpire life roger smith firebirds those st few weeks hurt ikea wholesale outlaws the club thundering herd believe it or dont creeping death knee injuries crazy euros frack attack todd s turkeys ryan s renegades fred mckim hurricane pig vomit ice strykers fighting geordies cdn stuck in alabama dayton bomber cafall and crew chris of death swillbellies banko s beer rangers zipper heads ny flames ship s way laubsters ii oz joliet inmates ninja bunnies great scott widefield white wolves the ice holes sandy s sabres daves team south carolina tiger paws florida tech burgh team leos blue chips for xtc roadrunners mudville kings new jersey rob redliners pat phillips stewart clamen demon spawn sunnyvale storm allez les blues up for sale hockey club petes picks rinaco brenz revenge dinamo riga andrew scott andrew idacom hp com hp idacom telecom operation ext during the roman era was considered old
rec.sport.hockey	usenet hockey draft week price list here is the price list for the week april to april andrew buy sell pts team player pit mario lemieux buf pat lafontaine bos adam oates det steve yzerman wpg teemu selanne nyi pierre turgeon tor doug gilmour buf alexander mogilny phi mark recchi la luc robitaille que mats sundin pit kevin stevens van pavel bure stl craig janney pit rick tocchet chi jeremy roenick que joe sakic stl brett hull cgy theoren fleury pit ron francis tor dave andreychuk bos joe juneau wpg phil housley mtl vincent damphousse mtl kirk muller det dino ciccarelli buf dale hawerchuk min mike modano nyr mark messier stl brendan shanahan pit jaromir jagr mtl brian bellows la jari kurri det sergei fedorov cgy robert reichel det paul coffey wsh peter bondra hfd geoff sanderson tb brian bradley nyi steve thomas pit larry murphy phi rod brind amour bos ray bourque que steve duchesne hfd andrew cassels la tony granato wsh dale hunter wsh mike ridley hfd pat verbeek mtl stephan lebeau cgy gary suter van cliff ronning nj claude lemieux que mike ricci van murray craven stl jeff brown wsh kevin hatcher nyr tony amonte sj kelly kisio nj alexander semak min russ courtnall min dave gagner tor nikolai borschevsky phi eric lindros la jimmy carson cgy joe nieuwendyk van geoff courtnall min ulf dahlen nyi derek king wsh michal pivonka que owen nolan bos dmitri kvartalnov stl nelson emerson chi chris chelios nyi benoit hogue nj stephane richer wpg thomas steen wpg alexei zhamnov chi steve larmer pit joe mullen nyr mike gartner van petr nedved van trevor linden la mike donnelly wsh dmitri khristich wsh al iafrate det ray sheppard que andrei kovalenko hfd zarley zalapski nyr adam graves sj johan garpenlov tor glenn anderson la wayne gretzky ott norm maciver phi garry galley det steve chiasson det paul ysebaert nj valeri zelepukin mtl mike keane phi brent fedyk pit shawn mceachern la rob blake nyi pat flatley que scott young wpg darrin shannon phi kevin dineen nj bernie nicholls cgy sergei makarov chi steve smith wsh pat elynuik van greg adams nj scott stevens tb john tucker wpg fredrik olausson nyr sergei nemchinov nyr darren turcotte cgy al macinnis chi christian ruuttu chi brent sutter hfd terry yake van dixon ward wpg keith tkachuk bos stephen leach tor john cullen mtl denis savard nyr ed olczyk van anatoli semenov wsh sylvain cote nyi vladimir malakhov nyi jeff norton hfd patrick poulin bos dave poulin la tomas sandstrom edm petr klima nj john maclean edm doug weight mtl gilbert dionne la alexei zhitnik edm shayne corson que martin rucinsky wpg evgeny davydov stl kevin miller edm craig simpson wsh kelly miller phi pelle eklund chi michel goulet edm dave manson ott sylvain turgeon cgy paul ranheim mtl mathieu schneider min mark tinordi det bob probert edm todd elik nyr esa tikkanen bos vladimir ruzicka ott bob kudelski nj peter stastny tor dave ellett ott brad shaw det niklas lidstrom nj bobby holik tor wendel clark nyr alexei kovalev buf yuri khmylev min mike mcphee tor rob pearson van sergio momesso nyr brian leetch chi dirk graham tb adam creighton que valery kamensky edm zdeno ciger la corey millen bos ted donato tor peter zezel min neal broten mtl gary leeman edm scott mellanby buf wayne presley det keith primeau nyi brian mullen phi josef beranek chi stephane matteau bos steve heinze phi dmitri yushkevich hfd mikael nylander buf richard smehlik tor dmitri mironov chi brian noonan sj pat falloon stl igor korolev wsh bob carpenter nyr james patrick buf petr svoboda ott mark lamb nyi scott lachance mtl benoit brunet tb mikael andersson edm martin gelinas wpg sergei bautin tor bill berg edm kevin todd nyi david volek nyi ray ferraro min brent gilchrist hfd yvon corriveau nyr phil bourque nyi darius kasparaitis det jim hiller phi andrei lomakin buf donald audette tb roman hamrlik bos cam neely sj mark pederson pit martin straka chi joe murphy nyr peter andersson ott tomas jelinek nj janne ojanen tb steve kasper min bobby smith sj ray whitney hfd robert petrovicky buf viktor gordijuk tor joe sacco que mikhail tatarinov sj peter ahola chi rob brown bos glen murray hfd tim kerr min brian propp wsh reggie savage stl vitali prokhorov la robert lang edm shaun van allen min dan quinn det viacheslav kozlov bos jozef stumpel pit bryan fogarty mtl olav petrov tb stan drulia wsh jason woolley nj claude vilgrain mtl patrick kjellberg ott alexei yashin wsh randy burridge edm dean mcammond cgy cory stillman tb brent gretzky buf jason dawe wsh brian sakic van igor larionov chi sergei krivokrasov que peter forsberg andrew scott andrew idacom hp com hp idacom telecom operation ext during the roman era was considered old
rec.sport.hockey	aargh great hockey coverage devils locked away waiting for the tape delay to start it s nice that the devils are starting out their playoffs on network television too bad that their playoff game has been preempted on wabc am for an early season yankees baseball game it s a win by the texas rangers and they re delaying the tape delay by another half hour for the ballgame highlights gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
rec.sport.hockey	nhl summary parse results for games played fri april philadelphia hartford first period hartford nylander unassisted philadelphia recchi lindros brind amour pp second period hartford burt cunneyworth kron philadelphia bowen eklund recchi hartford nylander zalapski sanderson third period hartford kron sanderson cassels pp philadelphia beranek lomakin yushkevich philadelphia faust brind amour roussel overtime philadelphia yushkevich faust philadelphia power play scorer g a pts beranek bowen brind amour eklund faust lindros lomakin recchi roussel yushkevich hartford power play scorer g a pts burt cassels cunneyworth kron nylander sanderson zalapski new jersey ny islanders first period ny islanders turgeon unassisted ny islanders thomas malakhov king pp ny islanders ferraro dalgarno malakhov second period new jersey niedermayer richer nicholls ny islanders mullen vaske dalgarno ny islanders thomas hogue norton new jersey zelepukin unassisted new jersey richer nicholls daneyko ny islanders hogue flatley ferraro third period ny islanders turgeon unassisted new jersey semak lemieux driver ny islanders turgeon king pilon ny islanders power play scorer g a pts dalgarno ferraro flatley hogue king malakhov mullen norton pilon thomas turgeon vaske new jersey power play scorer g a pts daneyko driver lemieux nicholls niedermayer richer semak zelepukin ny rangers washington first period ny rangers graves zubov andersson washington ridley unassisted second period washington hatcher johansson third period washington jones may washington cote khristich pivonka pp ny rangers gartner amonte andersson pp washington power play scorer g a pts cote hatcher johansson jones khristich may pivonka ridley ny rangers power play scorer g a pts amonte andersson gartner graves zubov
rec.sport.hockey	re how difficult is it to get penguin tickets in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu dmoney magnus acs ohio state edu dean r money writes the subject line says it all is it terribly difficult to get tickets to penguins games especially now that they are in the playoffs would it be easy to find scalpers outside of the igloo selling tickets dean money dmoney magnus acs ohio state edu here is my traditional experience with tickets playoffs and otherwise at the civic arena scalping is illegal but nonetheless present outside the arena best strategy given that you don t mind missing the anthem which is ok if b e taylor decides to come back ever again is to wait until or when the game is rolling the scalpers are at this point desperate to sell and will reduce to near or at face value to get rid of their tickets playoffs are a little different in that good seats will go early on what s left at may be nosebleed material d e sections others can add on their opinions as well kevin l stamber purdue university penguins devils pens lead series game to none
rec.sport.hockey	did the blues pull it out when i left it was blues with to go as i predicted in i was right in the first place blues in yes of course it s only one game that could be the hawks stab in the face to wake them up that s what playoffs are about on any given day robbie po pgh penguins we do what comes naturally patrick division semi s stanley cup you see now wait for the penguins devils champions possibility don t you see a penguins lead straight wins strong resemblance dg
rec.sport.hockey	re playoff pool entry form well thanks to everyone who has entered so far there are at least entries and hopefully more people will enter before the deadline which is pm today sunday april in the interest of fairness since i will win anyway i feel it is only right to actually tell everyone my picks so that you all won t cry rigged after i declare myself the winner here they are series your pick games division semifinals pittsburgh new jersey pittsburgh washington ny islanders ny islanders boston buffalo boston quebec montreal quebec chicago st louis chicago detroit toronto detroit vancouver winnipeg winnipeg calgary los angeles calgary division finals patrick pittsburgh adams quebec norris chicago smythe calgary conference finals wales pittsburgh campbell chicago stanley cup winner pittsburgh keith keller let s go rangers let s go quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs when i want your opinion i ll give it to you
rec.sport.hockey	usenet playoff pool important i got back from my trip to discover that my email spool file got blown away i am missing all the playoff pool entries sent between april and april it looks like about entries got lost sigh therefore i would like to ask each person that sent me a team to resend it asap i am relying on your honesty to not make changes after the deadline today thanks in advance and i apologize for the problem andrew scott andrew idacom hp com hp idacom telecom operation ext during the roman era was considered old
rec.sport.hockey	re aargh great hockey coverage devils in article apr news columbia edu gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare wrote locked away waiting for the tape delay to start it s nice that the devils are starting out their playoffs on network television too bad that their playoff game has been preempted on wabc am for an early season yankees baseball game it s a win by the texas rangers and they re delaying the tape delay by another half hour for the ballgame highlights you think that s bad i m in bowling green oh and we get abc from toledo well the cable co decided to totally pre empt the game no tape delay no nothing for a stupid telethon hockey is very big around here too i had to listen to my penguins win on my car radio out in the parking lot i can just be thankful for a strong radio because being miles from pittsburgh the reception usually isn t good at all i can t believe i picked it up during the middle of the day george
rec.sport.hockey	tie breaker isles and devils are people here stupid or what it is a tie breaker of cause they have to have the same record how can people be sooooo stuppid to put win as first in the list for tie breaker if it is a tie breaker how can there be different record man i thought people in this net are good with hockey i might not be great in math but tell me how can two teams ahve the same points with different record man retard can t believe people actually put win as first in a tie breaker
rec.sport.hockey	blues steal game from hawks the blues scored two power play goals in seconds in the third period and the beat the chicago blackhawks sunday afternoon at chicago stadium brendan shanahan tied the game and brett hull scored the game winner seconds later jeff brown and denny felsner scored the other blues goals brian noonan had the hat trick for the hawks who also had some very good goaltending from ed belfour blues goalie curtis joseph was solid down the stretch to preserve the blues lead the hawks came out strong in the first period outshooting the blues and taking a lead on noonan s first goal right after an interference penalty on rick zombo had expired keith brown intercepted a clearing attempt at the blue line and passed the puck to steve larmer in the right circle larmer fired a long slap shot and noonan deflected the puck between joseph s pads after the goal the blues picked up the intensity and went on to outshoot the hawks in the first period jeff brown tied the game at of the second nelson emerson broke in on the left side got by craig muni and pushed the puck across the slot belfour came out to play the pass and shoveled it to the right boards where brown collected it and slapped it in before belfour could get back to the goal two minutes later on a hawks power play belfour stopped rich sutter on a short handed break in chris chelios picked up the puck and passed it to jeremy roenick who carried it on right wing and found an open noonan with a nice pass across the slot noonan fired it past joseph at for the lead noonan completed his hat trick later to increase the hawks lead to stephane matteau made a nice pass from the right boards to noonan who beat stephane quintal by driving to the net joseph had no chance as noonan deflected the puck in the net denny felsner reduced the blues deficit to at after picking up the rebound of basil mcrae s slap shot from the slot janney set up mcrae for the shot and the puck sailed wide of the net and bounced off the end boards to felsner felsner sticked the rebound into the partially open net the blues outshot the hawks in the second period with the blackhawks leading at of the third stephane matteau picked up a high sticking penalty just seconds into the power play steve smith was called for slashing giving the blues a on advantage for the blues didn t waste time as brendan shanahan scored just seconds into the two man advantage to tie the game janney found hull in the slot and hull fired a rocket at belfour jeff brown collected the rebound and passed it to shanahan in the left circle shanahan beat belfour from a sharp angle just seconds later hull scored the game winner for the blues nelson emerson broke in on right wing carried the puck behind the net along with two hawks defensemen emerson made a nice pass to an unchecked hull in the slot and hull beat belfour to put the blues up the hawks had several chances to tie the game in the final minutes but joseph made some brilliant saves to prevent the hawks from scoring he stopped troy murray point blank from just right of the crease with left in the game the blues killed off a late hawks power play with rich sutter clearing the puck with his hand as it was trickling along the goal line the blues held on to win the game the hawks oushot the blues in the third period totaling shots on goal for each team the blues special teams were excellent in the game the blues killed of hawks power plays and scored twice on on four power play chances the blues ranked among the best special teams in the league they rank nd in penalty killing and rd on the power play the game was carried live on abc the first time an nhl game other than an all star game has been shown on network television since may when cbs carried game of the stanley cup finals the best of seven series continues wednesday in chicago and friday and sunday in st louis box score blues blackhawks blues chicago first period chi noonan larmer k brown penalties shanahan stl holding zombo stl interference murphy chi high sticking grimson chi boarding zombo stl holding second period stl brown shanahan emerson chi ppg noonan roenick chelios chi noonan matteau sutter stl felsner mcrae janney penalties baron stl interference wilson stl tripping third period stl ppg shanahan j brown hull stl ppg hull emerson j brown penalties shanahan stl roughing matteau chi high sticking smith chi slashing baron stl roughing shots on goal blues chicago power play opportunities st louis of chicago of goaltenders st louis joseph shots saves chicago belfour referee kerry fraser linesmen kevin collins brian murphy a a l l e z l e s b l u e s joe ashkar contact for the blues saint louis jca cec wustl edu blues
rec.sport.hockey	re tie breaker isles and devils in lrw f rpi edu wangr vccsouth its rpi edu rex wang writes i might not be great in math but tell me how can two teams ahve the same points with different record man retard can t believe people actually put win as first in a tie breaker well i don t see any smileys here i am trying to figure out if the poster is a dog or a wordprocessor couldn t be neither both are smarter than this i might not be great in math cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time
rec.sport.hockey	re aargh great hockey coverage devils in article apr news columbia edu gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare says locked away waiting for the tape delay to start i think this guy is going to be just a little bit disappointed lemieux two tocchet mullen tippett and jagr i buzzed my friend because i forgot who had scored mullen s goal i said who scored lemieux two tocchet tippett jagr the funny part was i said the jagr part non chalantly as he was in the process of scoring while i was asking this question all in all abc s coverage wasn t bad on a scale of i give it about an how were the games in the chi st louis la area it s nice that the devils are starting out their playoffs on network television too bad that their playoff game has been preempted on wabc am for an early season yankees baseball game that s stupid i d complain to the television network if i were to even see a pirates game on instead of a penguins game at this time of the year i and many other pittsburghers would surely raise hell it s a win by the texas rangers and they re delaying the tape delay by another half hour for the ballgame highlights texas is off to a good start they may pull it out this year whoops that belongs in rec sport baseball robbie po pgh penguins we do what comes naturally patrick division semi s stanley cup you see now wait for the penguins devils champions possibility don t you see a penguins lead straight wins strong resemblance dg
rec.sport.hockey	re i was right in the first place in article vzhivov cunews vzhivov superior carleton ca vladimir zhivov says in rap psuvm psu edu robbie po rap psuvm psu edu writes red wings vs maple leafs maple leafs in comment it s kind of tough to rely on yzerman as the team s main weapon he s a great palyer but dino knows all about choking which puts the burden on steve even more potvin s had a hell of a season and goaltending is what you need in the playoffs for a great prognosticator you seem to remember very little playoff history dino always shows up in the playoffs which is why he is a great sleeper pick in pools don t forget about fedorov one of the top players in the nhl imho and coffey who has the most stanley cup rings of any active players correct me if i m wrong wings in a cakewalk oh yeah how come dino could never take the caps out of the patrick division he choked up games to last year and got swept away in the second round two years ago he rarely if ever makes it out of the division canucks vs jets canucks in comment it s more like vancouver vs selanne king and domi for enforcing help winnipeg out a little maybe a game canucks have their number except that the canuck are playing like shit winnipeg can win this one though i think vancouver will manage to slip by so are the islanders but they can still pull it out vancouver has winnipeg s number so it really doesn t matter flames vs kings flames in comment games looks good as the kings always seem to battle it out flames are back in running and won t know memories of last year s season gretzky is on a tear but there are too many surrounding the kings kings always seem to battle it out when where kings always seem to go at least or they never play a four or five game serious there s a difference between battling it out and pulling it out as i take calgary to pull it out in robbie po pgh penguins we do what comes naturally patrick division semi s stanley cup you see now wait for the penguins devils champions possibility don t you see a penguins lead straight wins strong resemblance dg
rec.sport.hockey	daigle kariya i hear daigle will eb the first pick next year what is the word on kariya anybody ever seen him play on tv is he also entering the draft
rec.sport.hockey	umass big east hockey underway the mission to revive hockey at umass is now underway at the pm saturday afternoon press conference held at the new mullins center arena former boston college asst coach joe mallen was awarded the year year contract as head coach for the umass minutemen mallen was the third viable pick for the position right behind jeff jackson lake superior and second behind shawn walsh umaine previous offers for the position were rumored to have been offered to the asst coaches of brown rpi and the head coach of the ahl springfield indians umass hockey was disbanded in due to financial constraints that had undermined the team s position over a period of years in late november of last year the million mullins sports center was opened following its one year construction deadline the minutemen are slated to play an independent div ii div iii schedule this upcoming winter before officially entering hockey east for the winter season mallen has yet to comment on player recruitment strategies or potential team candidates for the minutemen it is expected that he will leverage off his inside contacts within new england the bay state and europe to draw on competitive top ice players for the university umass has slated hockey scholarships for the upcoming fall semester expect to hear more from me as i hear more from my sources j d jim doyle univ of massachusetts dept of computer science staff programmer puma dcc cnet email doyle gaia cs umass edu office lederle grc room a tel home blackberry ln tel amherst ma
rec.sport.hockey	re how difficult is it to get penguin tickets in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu dmoney magnus acs ohio state edu dean r money writes the subject line says it all is it terribly difficult to get tickets to penguins games especially now that they are in the playoffs would it be easy to find scalpers outside of the igloo selling tickets there are always scalpers with tickets outside the arena you might have to pay a few bucks extra but you can always find them look on the street under the message board or out on the street in front of the hyatt or even around gate the later you buy them the less money you ll pay and during the regular season you could usually find some for near face value or below if you wait until game time might be better to pick them up earlier now though rick
rec.sport.hockey	re tie breaker isles and devils in lrw f rpi edu wangr vccsouth its rpi edu rex wang writes are people here stupid or what it is a tie breaker of cause they have to have the same record how can people be sooooo stuppid to put win as first in the list for tie breaker if it is a tie breaker how can there be different record man i thought people in this net are good with hockey i might not be great in math but tell me how can two teams ahve the same points with different record man retard can t believe people actually put win as first in a tie breaker why not i believe both the devils and islanders got points say for example another team had this record they had which is the same as their points total the islanders and devils records are both it is simple arithmetics and involve no calculus john a computer science graduate who pretends to be a mathematican
rec.sport.hockey	re bruins vs canadiens in article apr rose com jack petrilli rose com jack petrilli writes on april richard amc com richard wernick wrote or boston you know sinden s going to find some way of screwing up even this good boston team he ll fire suter or trade away a vital star admittedly his last few trades have been good ones but how long before his luck runs out and he starts making esposito for ratelle type trades again how was this trade bad i seem to recall ratelle and middleton making a pretty good centre right wing combination and the bruins also got brad park in the deal and they also lost vadnais and somebody else after the trade the bruins were in two finals and one semi final all of which of course they lost to montreal which should please you to no end i doubt however keeping esposito would have made a difference in those series as he did not for the rangers in or any of his years in boston for that matter riston riston o o
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl team in milwaukee well put jason i am not from wisconsin but i have close relatives who live in port washington about minutes north of milwaukee i visit the city regularly and i have been in the bradley four times to see the admirals play and the ncaa hockey championships it is a beautiful building the pettits and the city like to promote it as the best facility for hockey in north america as to what will happen with the admirals if milwaukee does acquire a franchise word is the team will move to green bay and play in the brown county arena once again the admirals are an independent franchise and the people of milwaukee have been supporting them well the games i have been to have seen crowds anywhere from to which are numbers some nhl teams i e the islanders hartford new jersey would be envious of having on some nights plus the fact that the city is able to support a minor league franchise without the glamour of having an nhl club affiliated to it is testimony to the amount of hockey interest exists in the city sincerely martin hill rt box b sault ste marie mi home of lssu go lakers p s anybody know what the attendance figures are for the ihl and how milwaukee stacks up against other ihl cities such as atlanta phoenix san diego cleveland and cincinnati if so please reply
rec.sport.hockey	re div and conf names maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes in bu edu jason gibson writes i can live with the other changes that have been made e g the playoff format change but the change to the division and conference names really annoys me batman was on tsn last night saying that changing the names would make the game easier for the occasional fan to follow he should have said what he meant that changing the names will make the game easier for americans in non hockey cities to follow i don t know of too many of my friends who had a hard time following which teams were in each division even a minimal amount of exposure to the game allows a person to quickly pick up on this there is nothing wrong with making the game easier for americans to follow the more fans the merrier and even if you dislike the occasional fan there is always the chance that these fans will become fanatics i am glad that the names are being changed for another reason the names patrick smythe norris adams and campbell are all the names of so called builders of the game this is the same type of thinking that put stein in the hall of fame this is absolute nonsense the real builders of the game are richard morenz howe conacher orr etc if you are going to name the divisions after people at least name the divisions after people who deserve it i think that you are incorrect roger patrick smythe and adams all played or coached in the league before becoming front office types hence they did help build the league although they were not great players themselves i agree that a name is a name is a name and if some people have trouble with names that are not easily processed by the fans then changing them to names that are more easily processed seems like a reasonable idea if we can get people in the arena door by being uncomplicated then let s do so once we have them they will realize what a great game hockey is and we can then teach them something abotu the history of the game the history of the names can be put rather succinctly all of the aforemen tioned used the game of hockey to make money can you imagine a pocklington division a ballard division or how about a green division no i would not want to see a ballard division but to say that these owners are assholes hence all nhl management people are assholes would be fallacious conn smythe for example was a classy individual from what i have heard also isn t the point of professional hockey to make money for all those involved which would include the players what i think you might be saying is that the players have not made as much money as should have been their due and it is the players that are what make the game great not the people who put them on the ice so naming division after management people rather than players is adding insult in the form of lesser recognition to injury less money than was deserved evan pritchard number or depending on the hockey pool epritcha psych uiuc edu
rec.sport.hockey	re aargh great hockey coverage devils robbie po rap psuvm psu edu writes gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare says locked away waiting for the tape delay to start i think this guy is going to be just a little bit disappointed why i m calling this penguins in only that with the way things stand the only radio game at that hour is from the devils on wabc am it d be nice to have a sony watchman but no need to be paranoid robbie don t judge me by my geographic coordinates jets over nordiques in the final gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
rec.sport.hockey	re div and conf names in c pdgi ljl news cso uiuc edu epritcha s psych uiuc edu evan pritchard writes i think that you are incorrect roger patrick smythe and adams all played or coached in the league before becoming front office types hence they did help build the league although they were not great players themselves punch imlach s contributions as a coach and gm were far greater than those of the above combined should we name a division or trophy after him smythe and norris and the bunch were honoured purely because they were powerful owners as owners they certainly did help to build the league but whether they developed the game is another question altogether are we going to honour those who contributed to the league s evolution or are we going to honour those who contributed to the glory of the sport itself i agree that a name is a name is a name and if some people have trouble with names that are not easily processed by the fans then changing them to names that are more easily processed seems like a reasonable idea if we can get people in the arena door by being uncomplicated then let s do so once we have them they will realize what a great game hockey is and we can then teach them something abotu the history of the game i can t disagree with you here the history of the names can be put rather succinctly all of the aforemen tioned used the game of hockey to make money can you imagine a pocklington division a ballard division or how about a green division no i would not want to see a ballard division but to say that these owners are assholes hence all nhl management people are assholes would be fallacious conn smythe for example was a classy individual from what i have heard what have you heard the major was the definitive little asshole he originated the phrase if you can t beat em in the alley you can t beat em on the ice that was his idea of hockey do you think by chance that don cherry is a classy individual also isn t the point of professional hockey to make money for all those involved which would include the players what i think you might be saying is that the players have not made as much money as should have been their due and it is the players that are what make the game great not the people who put them on the ice so naming division after management people rather than players is adding insult in the form of lesser recognition to injury less money than was deserved the money issue is irrelevant to the point that we would agree on and that is it is the players that are what make the game great and not the people who put them on the ice exactly true naming divisions and trophies after smythe and the bunch is the same kind of nepotism that put stein in the hall of fame i have always thought that this was nonsense cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time
rec.sport.hockey	re div and conf names epritcha s psych uiuc edu evan pritchard writes no i would not want to see a ballard division but to say that these owners are assholes hence all nhl management people are assholes would be fallacious conn smythe for example was a classy individual from what i have heard depends on what you mean by classy from what i ve heard about him he was about as classy as harold ballard only difference was that back then almost all the owners were like that so he seemed okay by comparison read the book net worth for one view of what smythe and norris and adams and campbell were like also isn t the point of professional hockey to make money for all those involved which would include the players what i think you might be saying is that the players have not made as much money as should have been their due and it is the players that are what make the game great not the people who put them on the ice so naming division after management people rather than players is adding insult in the form of lesser recognition to injury less money than was deserved even more specifically i think what roger was saying and i said it previously too is that these are not the people who made the league great so why should divisions conferences etc be named after them instead of morenz vezina howe orr etc the people who did make it great instead the nhl has chosen to immortalize the men who got rich off of the men who made the game great chris roney e mail chris roney sfu ca
rec.sport.hockey	re numerical nothingness in article apr freenet carleton ca ad freenet carleton ca bob wilson writes mario averaged points per game the antigretz gretzky averaged pts game mario projected over games points beats wayne s record by check your information before posting gretzky s record is pts in games over games g a points over games gretzky s total projected points pitt s winning percentage with mario over games points would this have been a record i know mtl had one year the canadiens had percentage pts in games the bruins had a winning percentage also the canadiens had a percentage with a record bob wilson ad freenet carleton ca a l l e z l e s b l u e s joe ashkar contact for the blues saint louis jca cec wustl edu blues
rec.sport.hockey	nhl playoff stats scores for updated playoff updates scores stats summaries e mail me mmilitzo skidmore edu with the subject stats
rec.sport.hockey	re rangers name keenan coach clarinews clarinet com upi writes in clari sports hockey new york upi mike keenan whose nhl coaching history has been to wear out his welcome despite an impressive penchant for winning has come to the city that embraces victors above all else well i could become a fan seriously this news coming since thursday has effectively robbed the islanders and the devils of any airtime on sports talk shows almost everywhere that i ve sampled in fact the playoffs almost don t exist now ranger fans calling in to wfan or to new york one s midnight sports talk were in a mix of fury over this season and near orgasm over keenan s hiring summarizing keenan is a winner and will give the broadway bums da business in pursuing the next cup chase the chicago blackhawks cut their last tie with keenan when he was forced out as general manager in november he had given up chicago s coaching duties a year ago and his thirst for the power of a gm now increases the pressure on beleaguered rangers gm neil smith this will be an interesting combination to watch keenan has been paid enough money to put up and shut up and just be a coach but his advice on any player moves will be listened to closely a lot of big player moves will happen remember that keenan got rid of denis savard the country club days are over when keenan left chicago i couldn t help but think about him as our coach smith said there was an indication he would be taken off the market i feared that and couldn t let that happen if paramount had given smith an earlier sign of support and offered keenan the big money to put up and shut up back in january the rangers might not be heading for golf now keenan takes on a demoralized team that offers him a chance to fashion yet another of his reclamation projects at the highest salary ever commanded by an nhl coach the rangers owned by gulf western have bestowed upon keenan an unprecedented million four year deal i ve known mike a long time messier said we ve won two canada cups together he s been to the finals three times maybe we miss just one more element to win the stanley cup i don t think he s the same person he was years ago or even five years ago i think he has changed and bettered himself with experience one of keenan s first statements was a reaffirmation that mark messier will be the team s captain the timing of the move gives the rangers new coach months to prepare for the nhl draft june and neil smith may not back off the their trade happy pattern by then smith might have some bargains on keenan s advice like maybe unloading phil bourque for tie domi gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
rec.sport.hockey	la on abc in canada was the abc coverage of the kings flames game supposed to be the way it was shown in bc with cbc overriding the abc coverage when i flipped to abc it was the same commentators same commercials even my question is was this the real abc coverage or did cbc just black out the abc coverage for its own comment cbc had a great chance for some double headers toronto detroit and vancouver winnipeg but today they said that the east gets the leafs and the west get the vancouver game i thought that they would show them both the godfather
rec.sport.hockey	college hockey all star game does anybody know the details of the shriners all star game that featured the best seniors in college hockey in a game in orono maine if you do please reply
rec.sport.hockey	corrections re playoff predictions everyone read this if you have already sent your predictions please correct the patrick division if you would like you have until midnight on monday my time you may need to correct these games pittsburgh vs new jersey new york islanders vs washington patrick division winner wales conference winner stanley cup winner please forward all corrections to richard madison rrmadiso napier uwaterloo ca st rd pens over isles in devils over caps in nd pens over devils in
rec.sport.hockey	what are you smoking wasre my predictions of a classic playoff year norris division tor vs det tor in this like mon vs que will be another intense series to watch chi vs tor tor in potvin will be settling in nicely by this point vancouver vs toronto toronto in potvin will be series mvp this is what kills me stanley cup finals toronto maple leafs vs montreal canadiens the classic stanley cup final matchup also a dream come true montreal wins the stanley cup in the th game in double overtime roy and potvin are spectacular throughout the series and share series mvp if that is possible vincent damphouse nets game winner from a brilliant pass by brian bellows canadiens star denis savard watched his buddies play from the owners box nursing that splinter on his thumb which has left him on the disabled list since the first game of the playoffs awww shucks paul die hard habs fan living with die hard leafs fans speaking of die hard that s what i did when i read this died hard laughing toronto to the cup finals first of all has anyone on the planet heard of the team from detroit al morgani or however you spell the idiot s name must be from chicago because on espn he said it s not even close chicago will definatly win the norris division in the playoffs no other team is close everyone is picking chicago i don t get it he says it s an easy choice god chicago was against the wings and they won the division by a point or two followed closely by toronto who is also a good team as for the leafs beating detroit doubt it but even if they do they aren t going to get by chicago if even more amazingly they get past the hawks they would probably face vancouver and lose as for the habs reaching the finals forget it even i as a devoted wings fan will watch the penguins easily three peat as cup winners lemieux jagr tocchet stevens and barrasso its a done deal sorry detroit wait til next year but hey these were paul s picks and everyone has a right to their own opinnions but the leafs to the finals yeah if they make it there i ll walk to toronto to get some tickets and that s a mile walk ryan detroit red wings the forgotten team go wings let s hope the penguins go out early
rec.sport.hockey	nhl team captains in the mist of the rangers soap box i e captain nemesis ier ex coach roger nebula bad blood bath and with high hopes turned to new coach mr klean commissar keenan i would like to know what procedures hockey teams use to select their captains including a s are they selected by the coaching staff do the players vote for a captain or are they appointed by management and while we are on the subject has a captain ever been traded resigned or been striped of his title during the season any other team captain trivia would be appreciated mike
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl team captains in apr ann arbor applicon slb com colling ann arbor applicon slb com michael collingridge writes and while we are on the subject has a captain ever been traded resigned or been striped of his title during the season any other the leafs have always been kind of comical during the second imlach era when darryl sittler was called a cancer on the team he tore the c off his sweater and for a while the leafs didn t have a captain sittler eventually ended up in philly and he was promised the philly captaincy by new gm and sittler s friend bobby clarke instead sittler got traded to detroit rick vaive was the leaf captain for awhile but he slept in one day and they took the captaincy away from him then he was traded to chicago during doug carpenter s tenure as leaf coach in an attempt to kiss the ass of a sulking gary leeman the leafs took the a away from brad marsh to give to leeman leeman wouldn t take it and when they tried to give it back to marsh he wouldn t take it neither the best story i remember about a captain concerned mel bridgman late of the senators while he was in philadelphia bobby clarke arguably one of the great captains of all time was bumped up to the status of playing coach and so he had to relinquish the captaincy bridgman be came the new captain a reporter asked a flyer what bridgman did as a captain since clarke was still the undisputed leader amongst the players the reporter was told that bridgman was in charge of making sure that the soap dispensers in the showers were always full cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time
rec.sport.hockey	re tie breaker isles and devils in article lrw f rpi edu wangr rpi edu writes are people here stupid or what it is a tie breaker of cause they have to have the same record how can people be sooooo stuppid to put win as first in the list for tie breaker if it is a tie breaker how can there be different record man i thought people in this net are good with hockey i might not be great in math but tell me how can two teams ahve the same points with different record man retard can t believe people actually put win as first in a tie breaker golly i love stupid people listen rex this is hockey the nhl to be precise and in the nhl there exist these things called ties a tie occurs when a game ends with the score for each team equal each team gets one point for a tie there also exits these things called wins a win is when one team has a higher score than the opponent oh yeah only two teams play each other at a time so i can say the opponent a team gets two points for a win so let s say that a team has a record of wins losses and ties another team has a record of wins losses and ties the first team has points the second team has points wow they both have the same number of points but the number of wins is different how did they do that that s amazing so rex when people talk about wins being the first tiebreaker well then that s what it means in our example the second team would win the tiebreaker and therefore have the better record even though both teams had the same number of points if you didn t understand this post rex maybe you should go back and read it again very slowly keith keller let s go rangers let s go quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs when i want your opinion i ll give it to you
rec.sport.hockey	atlanta hockey hell well it s not that bad but i am still pretty pissed of at the local abc coverage they cut off the first half hour of coverage by playing david brinkley at instead of an earlier time slot i don t even understand their problem if they didnt think enough people would not watch the game why would they decide to show most of the game and if they showed the remaining hours of the game would it hurt to play david brinkley at its regular time they dont have any decent programming before noon anyway i called the sports dept and blasted them on their machine i called gain and someone picked it up when i asked him why they premepted the first half hour of the stanley cup playoffs he seemed a bit confused when i explained a bit more in detail he then said that s upto to our programming dept call back on monday weel i understand that the sports dept is not responsible for this preemption but i can t understand how someone in the sports dept can t even recognise the name of playoffs shown on the very same station he works for anyway i am going to call them tomorrow and blast them on the phone again i urge all atlanta hockey fans to call wsb and ask them not to do the same thing for the next weeks pravin ratnam oh by the way pens rule
rec.sport.hockey	ooops picture if you will the habs going into the last couple minutes of the game leading the nords get a power play pull hextall and get a goal bout a minute later they get another one then they win in overtime a bad dream how s that red hot chili peppers song go give it away give it away give it away now oh well suppose i can always watch the leafs win tomorrow night smilies am i the only female hockey fan in the world susan carroll clark sclark epas utoronto ca
rec.sport.hockey	nords habs in o t we was robbed aargh paul stewart is the worst and most biased ref presently in the nhl he called a total of penalties on the habs and one on the nordiques the nords penalty came in o t stewart being an ex nordique himself was looking to call penalties on the habs while letting the nords get away with murder we was robbed it was an excellent game with plenty of end to end rushes and tremendous goalkeeping the nords tied it with over minute to go while lebeau was serving a penalty i don t mind stewart calling a penalty in the last min of the game but at least be fair about it the nords were caught with their hand in the cookie jar more than once stewart turned the other cheek bastard patrick roy collapsed after letting in the tieing goal he was shaky and on his knees for the rest of the night the winning goal shouldn t have gone in don t get me wrong i m not blaming the loss on stewart the habs had plenty of chances to capitalize muller leclair haller etc but failed to put the puck in the net that s what did them in but mr stewart didn t help matters at all oh well at least the bruins lost in o t also ha ha ooo ooo the czar of mainframe computing jbe musicb mcgill ca mcgill university i m too sexy for cobol habs will beat the nords in let s go expos hickory dickory doc she took a good look at your cock it s really scary all rinkled and hairy it smells like a year old sock andrew dice clay disclaimer needless to say that the opinions expressed by the czar represent those of the faculty staff and students of mcgill university
rec.sport.hockey	re truly a sad day for hockey in article alvstad mari acc admin stolaf edu mad dog reports a fine year history came to a close tonight as the minnesota north stars or norm s stars whichever you prefer lost to the red wings by a score of the stars goals were scored by mike mcphee and ulf dahlen who netted two including the final one in franchise history with less than a minute to play are there any further stories to report on the eve of norm s farewell from the twin cities in an earlier post it was announced that norm green was given until midnight of the last home game of the north stars to cleanup his belongings and turn in the keys to the arena did this happen was norm run out of town rumor has it that while he was attempting to remove the score board the score board fell to the ice and flattened mr greedy to a large piece of green paper arena management had to use the zamboni which they confiscated from norm s truck to clean up the useless remains mike
rec.sport.hockey	re atlanta hockey hell mamatha devineni ratnam mr andrew cmu edu writes i can t understand how someone in the sports dept can t even recognise the name of playoffs shown on the very same station he works for you think that s bad one year we had all three new york teams in the playoffs and the cableco operator scny once shared a channel with bet but someone forgot to throw the switch at pm didn t know what i was talking about while it s nice that the nhl is back on american network tv it faces the same problems as it did with the all star game local preemptions and zero promotion okay i don t watch that much tv so i m just foaming all right the league should have made sure that it was solid on cable before going to the networks in year one of the new espn contract the saturation coverage of sca all other games shown to completion like the quebec montreal and sabres bruins overtimes is missed around here gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
rec.sport.hockey	flames truly brutal in loss as the subject suggests the flames were not impressive this afternoon dropping a decision to the la kings most of the flames neglected to show up especially in their own zone as the kings hit at least five posts the flames best line was probably skrudland paslawski berube which tells how bad the flames were gary suter scored a great goal in fact all three flame goals were scored by d men yawney and dahlquist getting the others but also made some bonehead plays for the kings pat conacher was especially impressive the games was very chippy as dan mirouelli lost control early and never recovered it there were high sticks cross checks punches hits from behind fleury got a game misconduct for rubbing out warren rychel from behind flames dominated the game physically but failed to take advantage due to horrendous defensive lapses i don t think vernon can be blamed for any of the goals calgary went with d men as roger johansson played lw he looked lost imho i hope king inserts chris lindbergh paul kruse or sergei makarov for wednesday s game gretzky left the game in the nd period with a charley horse no idea how serious he didn t return i still think the flames should win this series but they better buckle down vlad the impaler
rec.sport.hockey	playoff pool update well i have compiled some statistics on the entries of my pool there are unofficially entrants here are the stats on what teams were picked to win it all pittsburgh sweep in in in boston in in detroit in in montreal in in toronto in in no this wasn t roger calgary in quebec in vancouver in washington in why the hell hasn t anybody picked chicago nobody quebec got a pick detroit got but absolutely no chicago how odd here are the losers detroit chicago so there they are pittsburgh vancouver boston calgary los angeles what toronto los angeles are you out of your mind good luck to you you ll need it so pittsburgh is the consensus winner of the stanley cup they ll statistically beat detroit in games haha that s happening not as i said every one of my picks will come true and i picked chicago to lose to pittsburgh in the finals so tough luck to all you who picket detroit well tough luck to all of ya i am a genius keith keller let s go rangers let s go quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs a cow is not a vegetarian dish keith keller
rec.sport.hockey	re flames truly brutal in loss this game would have been great as part of a double header on abc or espn the league would have been able to push back to back wins by le magnifique and the great one unfortunately the only network that would have done that was sca seen in few areas and hard to justify as a pay channel gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
rec.sport.hockey	re possible canadian wc team in article apr news columbia edu gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes nlu xenon stanford edu nelson lu writes centers mark messier n y rangers messier was not invited due to his nagging injuries while the press made an issue of it and attempted to link it to the rangers internal political woes mike keenan repeated that to messier personally during the msg press conference it makes sense messier would probably have not declined the invitation if it were made for publicity actually messier was invited but declined due to nagging injuries keenan and messier have always gotten along keenan dumped steve yzerman from the last canada cup team even though yzerman had endured the training camp when messier who had missed essentially the entire camp recovering from injuries became available at the last moment gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re daigle kariya in article qsmhtinnt l senator bedfellow mit edu ddlin athena mit edu david d lin writes i hear daigle will eb the first pick next year what is the word on kariya anybody ever seen him play on tv is he also entering the draft people are seeming to be less concerned about kariya s size as he leads teams to championships world junior and us college and collects awards everyone is watching with interest as to how he will perform on left wing with eric lindros and mark recchi at the world championships months of go chances were not very good that he would go in the top five now it has become probable a great world championship could put him in the top with daigle and pronger gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re octopus in detroit in detroit the octopus is a symbol from the old days of the league in the era of the original four teams made the playoffs to win the cup a team had to win two seven game series in other words it took playoff wins to win the cup the octopus legs has become a common detroit symbol every year around playoff time people start sneaking octopus octopi into the joe louis arena and throwing them onto the ice j old e mail jold vma cc nd edu
rec.sport.hockey	don cherry coach s corner summary april here is a summary of don cherry s coach s corner from april it took place in the first intermission of game of the montreal quebec series pre game comments don s pregame comments were mostly aimed at the goalies the goalie who gets back his all star form roy or hextall can win the series for his team eposode summary this episode took place rinkside don was holding a hot dog that he bought from the concession stand ron maclean started out by showing a cartoon which appeared in the toronto sun it featured a picture of don who just saw his shadow and proclaimed will you look at dat eh means another weeks of me beauty next don talked about the hot dog he was holding according to him the hot dogs at the quebec stadium are the best food in all the arenas in the nhl from there don commented on the quebec montreal game the game had great flow because referee paul stewart calls the best game in the nhl in contrast the calgary la game was terrible all stop and go over minutes of penalties called against calgary by dan marouelli its getting so that the ref who calls the most penalties gets to ref in the finals next ron showed an old picture of don when he was playing for the rochester americans of the ahl don recalled some of the wins that he had in the quebec arena during the memorial cup and the ahl championships finally don and ron discussed keenan becoming coach of the rangers the rangers were a talented team who underachieved don feels sorry for temporary coach ron smith who had several key injuries to leetch and patrick and goalies who went cold don had some criticism for the rangers team the party s over adolf keenan is there the rangers organization will no longer be a country club ny should be achamed of themselves if they go in the tank with adolf there they ll be hanging from the yardarm by their thumbs rating nothing too special in this episode i ll give it a out of allan sullivan allan cs ualberta ca department of computing science university of alberta edmonton alberta canada my opinions are mine and mine alone it is amazing how much can be accomplished if no one cares who gets the credit u of a golden bears hockey motto c drake
rec.sport.hockey	re flames truly brutal in loss in article vzhivov cunews vzhivov superior carleton ca vladimir zhivov writes as the subject suggests the flames were not impressive this afternoon dropping a decision to the la kings most of the flames neglected to show up especially in their own zone as the kings hit at least five posts the flames best line was probably mike vernon is now wins losses plus that all star game debacle in afternoon games during his career with another afternoon game with los angeles next sunday has the abc deal doomed the flames gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re goodbye good riddance get lost stars goodbye minnesota you never earned the right to have an nhl franchise in the first place hope you enjoy your twin city wide mania for high school hockey hey by the way my old pee wee team is having a reunion in regina care to come up and film the event yee haa golden gophers whatta weird town what s with you stupid dorks from the western business school first there was that cary asshole and now you don t you have anything better to do instead of being obnoxious antagonistic little shits over the network why don t you just take a hike and stop embarrasing yourself your school and canada kea
rec.sport.hockey	re how to beat pittsburgh how do you beat the penguins crash the team plane ryan
rec.sport.hockey	re la on abc in canada in article boora sfu ca boora kits sfu ca the godfather writes was the abc coverage of the kings flames game supposed to be the way it was shown in bc with cbc overriding the abc coverage when i flipped to abc it was the same commentators same commercials even my question is was this the real abc coverage or did cbc just black out the abc coverage for its own here in nanaimo on vancouver island for you furriners out there we got the abc coverage on komo it probably depends on your cable company i started off switching between the cbc and abc broadcasts but finally settled on abc i can t stand don whitman and al michaels was doing a decent job he followed the play pretty well knew all the players names and only made a couple of rookie mistakes that i noticed one thing that surprised me is that they never once attempted to explain the offside rule am i paranoid or is this really happening department there were no fights in the game but there were a couple of occasions where it looked like a fight was about to start both times abc cut away to show a closeup of a coach or mcnall or something has abc decided to adopt the spicer policy lorne epp epp mala bc ca
rec.sport.hockey	re blackhawks win in article apr vax cns muskingum edu jbrown vax cns muskingum edu writes the hawks win jermey roenick scored his th goal and the hawks put the leafs in their place the losers column if the leafs can not even beat the hawks in a match that had little or no meaning i will hate to see them against the wings oh btw i laugh at rm that jerky go hawks jb but i gotta tell ya if the hawks can t beat the blues in a game that is significant i can t wait to see how the blues might do against toronto btw if you think that the hawks deserved to win that game i think you were not watching the same one everyone else was roar in leaf fan alfred yong jeh yim b mathematics actuarial science university of waterloo canada e mail ayim descartes waterloo edu
rec.sport.hockey	re wings will win in article vela acs oakland edu ragraca vela acs oakland edu randy a graca writes i also think that they will have a hard time with pittsburgh if they face them in the finals which is what all the detroit sportswriters are predicting although i think bryan murray is probably the best gm i have ever seen in hockey how do you figure that when bryan murray took over the wings they were a pretty good team that was contending for the stanley cup but looked unlikely to win it now they are a pretty good team that is contending for the stanley cup but looks unlikely to win it a truly great gm would have been able to make the moves to push the team to the upper echelon of the nhl and maybe win the stanley cup a good gm like murray can maintain the team s success but can t push them to the next level in the history of hockey there have been several better gm s than murray way too many to name murray isn t even the best gm in the league today he fails in comparison to sinden sather savard caron fletcher and quinn in my estimation i can t imagine how bryan murray can be the best gm anyone has ever seen in hockey unless they have seen very few gm s gregmeister
rec.sport.hockey	re thumbs up to espn jca cec wustl edu joseph charles achkar writes it was nice to see espn show game between the wings and leafs since the cubs and astros got rained out instead of showing another baseball game they decided on the stanley cup playoffs a classy move by espn not in indiana they showed a tape delay of chicago v boston because wgn had the rainout of the cubs so wgn showed reruns of hitchcock no hockey at least in this part of the state go aeros ian neath there are four kinds of people in this world neath psych purdue edu cretins fools morons and lunatics u eco
rec.sport.hockey	re expanding to europe dusseldorf in pkortela apr lk hp hut fi pkortela snakemail hut fi writes deg has many german born forwards in the team in fact the majority of players are german born deg had average in spectator arena interesting one of our german friends here robert told me their forwards were all canadian germans perhaps somebody can sort this out for us my possible nhl european league site list switzerland berne zurich lugano and others ok this ain t north america and so on but i still doubt that any city having a pop of and below could support an nhl team of course switzerland probably should be judged as one large city because of small distances between cities but still germany dusseldorf cologne berlin munich mannheim rosenheim dusseldorf yes although the arena is an anachronism an open wall behind one of the goals essentially an outdoor arena cologne s arena only seats about berlin is about and no new facility will be built unless their olympic bid is successful munich does have an arena sweden stockholm gothenburg malmo gavle malmo is big enough but they also need a new arena the current one has seats i think finland helsinki turku tampere if we re talking about the nhl even helsinki would struggle to make it work turku despite an excellent arena and tampere are nowhere near big enough for major league hockey italy milan rome and the south are out of the question this could as well be africa to hockey fans romans were given the chance to host some wc games but showed no interest whatsoever all teams in the italian league come from milan and the smaller cities in the north france paris chamonix ruoen paris had their own volans francais sp pro team a couple of years ago i believe they even made it to the european club championship finals tournament one year but eventually folded due to lower than hoped for attendances the remaining cities seem to be too small to support a minor sport like hockey norway oslo austria vienna villach chech prag slovakia bratislava russia moscow st petersburg the easter cities lack the money and infrastructure to support pro hockey great britain perhaps most european teams will have to be like the tampa bay lightning anyway playing in a small seat arena backed by japanese money run by enthusiasts phil esposito heavy marketing fans that have difficulty telling what icing means london has been mentioned sheffield and birmingham also have large arenas and a new mega facility seats might be built in bristol in a couple of years netherlands no facilities to speak of their biggest arena in eindhoven seats fans for hockey petteri kortelainen marcu
rec.sport.hockey	plus minus stat roger maynard shares his views with the masses on bob gainey and life in general in apr sol uvic ca gballent hudson uvic ca greg ballentine writes the selke candidate forwards main purpose on a shift is to prevent goals from being scored not to score them when lemieux or gilmour play their number one purpose is to score defence is secondary especially considering the line that plays against them is probably a defensive one that is why they are not selke candidates gainey is the best defensive forward ever i stand by that assessment he was a very good player who belongs in the hall of fame did you ever watch him play he never made a technical error i watched him over his entire career i have never seen a player and that includes russell courtnall and davie keon screw up as many breakaways as bob gainey and i will never forget the time denis potvin caught gainey with his head down you have been sold a bill of goods on bob gainey it was bryan trottier not denis potvin it was a vicious boarding from behind trottier was given a major but roger what the hell does this have to do with gainey s skill as a hockey player if probert smashes gilmour s head into the boards next week will that diminish your assessment of gilmour s skills gainey was a plugger and when the press runs out of things to say about the stars on dynasties they start to hype the pluggers grant fuhr essa tikkannen butch goring bob nystrom bob gainey doug jarvis derek sanderson wayne cashman bob baun bob pulford ralph backstrom henri richard dick duff and so on i would take fuhr and sanderson off of the latter i think gainey would be honoured to know that you ve included him on this list i also think you have a relatively naive view about what wins a hockey game pluggers are an integral part of any team the selke is designed to acknowledge their contribution i think that most people understand that it s not the nobel prize so settle down cordially as always rm roger maynard maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca congenially as always jd james david david student business uwo ca j david sms business uwo ca james david western business school london ontario
rec.sport.hockey	rangers give nhl another blackeye news reports in toronto say that the rangers are insisting that kovalev zubov and andersson play for binghampton in the calder cup playoffs rather than return to play for their home countries in the world championships shame on the rangers another black eye for the nhl in europe gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re playoff predictions here are my predictions try not to laugh hysterically somebody save this so i can laugh when i win my own pool i don t have prizes but we all love bragging rights so winner takes them also if somebody has some sort of scoring system let me know i was thinking for st round victories for second for rd for th but we may get alot of ties any ideas buffalo montreal pittsburgh washington chicago toronto winnipeg los angeles montreal pittsburgh chicago winnipeg montreal chicago montreal richard madison rrmadiso napier uwaterloo ca
rec.sport.hockey	re ahl calder cup playoff preview daryl turner umturne ccu umanitoba ca wrote in article apr news clarkson edu farenebt craft camp clarkson edu droopy writes atlantic division st john s maple leafs vs moncton hawks moncton hawks see cd islanders moncton is a very similar team to cdi low scoring defensive good goaltending john leblanc and stu barnes are the only noticable guns on the team but the defense is top notch and mike o neill is the most underrated goalie in the league bri as i have tried to tell you since february michael o neill might be the most underrated goalie in the ahl but he isn t in the ahl he s on the winnipeg jets injury list as he has been since his first nhl start against the ottawa senators he s out until next year after surgery to repair a shoulder separation stu barnes might be an ahl gun for the hawks but he s now the third line center with the jets and has been since mid january or so sorry my memory is gone i thought that o neill got sent back down in february but i must have been given incorrect info i guess this says it all about moncton because barnes is still one of their top or so scorers even though he s been out since january bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl and ecac contact for rec sport hockey go usa hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey ny division ii state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu congrats to the boston bruins adams division champions phoenix suns pacific division champions
rec.sport.hockey	individual winners was re where are the doubters now hmm well since you mentioned it in article apr jarvis csri toronto edu migod turing toronto edu mike godfrey writes lemieux is clearly the mvp no question here chip in the masterson as well selanne wins the calder yep chelios the norris if you asked me days ago i d agree with you i now give the nod to raymond bourque his play took off the same time the b s did chelios gets a close second dunno who wins the vezina but i suspect not potvin barrasso finally gets his due in a close one over eddie the eagle coach of the year is tricky burns did the most with the least raw talent king did a good job but the flames clearly underachieved last year brian sutter has done exceptionally well in his first year with a new team ditto demers page has been blessed by the ripening and acquisition of young talent darryl sutter is having a good year for a rookie coach berry made the best of a bad situation terry crisp worked minor miracles and bowman was bowman i d pick burns but i m mildly biased in your case that bias is acceptable mine shows with the norris pick so we re even i m impressed with what all the coaches you mentioned did but my pick would be al arbour not too many folks thought the isles would be in the playoffs let alone contend for rd in their division granted that they did have a little help from their cousins on broadway and i like the islanders about as much as i like mowing my lawn mike godfrey david kehrer dwk sunsrvr cci com northern telecom nas rochester new york it s nothing for me to eat six or seven pieces of pizza then go out to dinner with my wife and not remember i had the pizza jacques demers
rec.sport.hockey	help wc coverage in europe vielen dank desperate fan ps sweden vs finland finished in gothenburg th apr
rec.sport.hockey	espn tonight has anyone heard what game espn is showing tonight they said they will show whatever game means the most playoff wise i would assume this would be the blues tampa game or the minnesota red wings game anyone heard for sure jeff swartz
rec.sport.hockey	re patrick division correction in article rap psuvm psu edu robbie po rap psuvm psu edu writes well i was a little off in those predictions one i didn t count on the devils scoring goals tonight in a tie hence there goes the streak secondly i didn t count on the islanders getting just point out of against the whalers in two games so no more isles capitals new predicitons penguins vs islanders penguins in or capitals vs devils devils in why should we pay your predictions any heed considering you couldn t even predict the proper matchups maybe you should try forecasting the weather instead frank salvatore fmsalvat eos ncsu edu
rec.sport.hockey	re plus minus stat in ld b w w sms business uwo ca j david sms business uwo ca james david writes it was bryan trottier not denis potvin it was a vicious boarding from behind trottier was given a major perhaps it was trottier it happened behind the habs goal if i recall gainey simply didn t have his head up as he was picking up the puck but roger what the hell does this have to do with gainey s skill as a hockey player if probert smashes gilmour s head into the boards next week will that diminish your assessment of gilmour s skills if gilmour was taken completely by surprise as gainey was then yeah i would have to say that doug wasn t playing technically smart hockey in any case to claim as greg did that gainey never made a technical mistake is absolutely ludicrous gainey was a plugger and when the press runs out of things to say about the stars on dynasties they start to hype the pluggers grant fuhr essa tikkannen butch goring bob nystrom bob gainey doug jarvis derek sanderson wayne cashman bob baun bob pulford ralph backstrom henri richard dick duff and so on i would take fuhr and sanderson off of the latter good for you you d only be displaying your ignorance of course but to each his own i think gainey would be honoured to know that you ve included him i think gainey should feel honoured to know that he is remembered at all on this list i also think you have a relatively naive view about what wins a hockey game pluggers are an integral part of certainly pluggers are an integral part of any team and that is simply because there are not enough solid two way players to go around who would you rather have as your checking centre doug gilmour or doug jarvis for that matter i would take either gretzky or mario as my checking centres do you think gretzky could cover bob gainey any team the selke is designed to acknowledge their contribution i think that most people understand that it s not the nobel prize so settle down you re wrong again the selke is awarded to the forward that does the best job defensively and this may or may not be the best plugger if gilmour does the best defensive job in the league i don t see why he should be out of the running simply because he also contributes offen sively settle down if you think that i have likened the selke to the nobel prize then i suggest that you had best settle down and if you are going to try to put words in my mouth let me suggest that you settle down before you bother following up on my postings congenially as always jd james david david student business uwo ca you might consider developing your own style after all imitation is the sincerest form of flattery and i am quite sure that flattery is not your intention cordially as always rm roger maynard maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca
rec.sport.hockey	european expansion and our f cked system everyone keeps talking about european expansion by thinking wishful thoughts but being totally off the ball the league format we use here is incompatible with that in europe for those that don t know the best teams from lower divisions get promoted and the worst get demoted would european fans put up with our if you ve paid you can play attitude how long would they support teams that are run on ranger based corporate thinking i use the term lightly we don t need a good product because these duffuses in nyc would fill the arena for ottawa s record every year haha sorry had ta say it if hockey and other pro sports had a similar system to europe maybe teams like the rangers would be forced to compete or get demoted the fourth division we d have many more teams centres that aren t as big like halifax or adirondack ok so halifax isn t a good example would eventually get promoted and every team would be somewhat competetive within its own division unlike ottawa sj edmonton etc fans would eventually get rewarded for their loyalty or penalized for their neglect and the league would be more interesting and dynamic every year because of the influx of newly promoted teams and the halifax citadels win the stanley cup i can dream can t i look at british or any european soccer as an example they never have fan problems just someone who thinks our system really sucks barfly feel free to flame me my account ends today hahahaha
rec.sport.hockey	re rangers top ten in netnews upenn edu kkeller mail sas upenn edu keith keller writes carol alt head coach in i wish she can be my head coach any time sorry ali back to real hockey hmmmmmm i think i ll let everyone make there own comment on this one the bad alexei kovalev what did the rangers think when they signed him did they think he was another domi just let him play and not on a th line better that he stays in the minors and gets ice time all the time whose bad it has been neilson and smith s decision to play him there if that s what you mean then that s bad but kovalev himself is a very good player you re right if he weren t stranded on the fourth line maybe he d produce sound familiar darren turcotte neilson and smith are bad kovalev is magical lets go pens the owl
rec.sport.hockey	who will broadcast the wc which german satellite channels will show the world championship action from dusseldorf munich someone please tell me must be able to root for the red machine thank you russians for the world title nordiques for the cup
rec.sport.hockey	re flyers re this year s biggest and worst opinion in article apr cbnewsm cb att com jmd cbnewsm cb att com joseph m dakes writes in article apr cbnewsh cb att com seth cbnewsh cb att com peter r clark jr writes so roussel was giving up almost another goal a game while facing a proportional number of shots for the number of minutes he played and while i have t actually checked i believe that he faced a lower quality of opponent make that less than half a goal a game the lower quality of opponet argument is immaterial as neither roussel nor soderstrom had any say in the matter that was dineen s decision so in other words if roussel shuts out the sharks and soderstrom shuts out the penguins that s immaterial because it was the coaches decision come on joe think about what you re saying who they played is very significant why they played them is what s irrelevent a low gaa against good teams is better than a low gaa against bad teams in the context of comparing two goaltenders a low gaa is better then a higher gaa a low gaa against good teams is much much better than a higher gaa against bad teams in the context of comparing two goaltenders the fact of the matter is that despite last nights shutout he doesn t have what it takes last night was due to an inept ranger team much more than roussel s skill a on and they don t get a shot away a on none and one guy just passes and stops the other guy shoots into roussel s pad c mon pete so the rangers were inept a shutout is a shutout during both of soderstrom s masterpieces against toronto mike emerich was quoted as saying he didn t think the leafs had much offensive firepower past their first line does that make soderstrom s shutouts less impressive because of toronto s lack of offense yes it does absolutely in the context of comparing two goaltenders of course at the end of the season points is points no matter how you get them and on the score sheets shutouts are shutouts but if you re a coach deciding between two goalies or a gm looking to make a trade you have got to look deeper than the stat sheets i didn t see the second toronto game but the first one was a defensive masterpiece there was nothing in that game to judge tommy soderstrom on because he wasn t tested the same for roussel in the ranger game two real scoring chances one he made a great play the other he was saved by a mistake from the other player if you were judging roussel on that game alone you have very little to go by but if you were to look at the tie against the habs you saw a goalie stand on his head to get that shutout that was a goalie in action roussel doesn t have a game like that in him well if you look back to november when roussel was the goalie soderstrom was being treated for his heart ailment the flyers finished november at and were overall and there s no way of knowing where the flyers would have finished if soderstom wasn t wearing the oragne n black i m glad we don t have to find out anytime soon either because he is one hell of a player i would take him over roussel right now but i still think dom has what it takes to be the guy he outperformed hextall enough during the season to make flyers management think that way too don t be so sure of that flyers management never says bad thing about roussel but they don t say too much on the good side either i ve seen at least two interviews where every time farwell was asked how happy he was to have two good goaltenders it was tommy this tommy that and oh yeah dom has played well too by the way what was the final card on monday night team picture by any chance flyers in the nhl hall of fame kinda dull really they handed out a team picture to everybody who walked in from pizza hut but it was the same picture they sold in the programs in mid season had names like benning kasper and how did the flyers choose the fans who received the shirts off our backs winning recchi s jersey after breaking the club s single season point record would have been nice but knowing your luck you would have won roussel s mostly random seat locations some were given out by having certain autographs on the team photos i don t like that method since i ve seen guards help out people get things like lindros pictures surely if they got their hands on an autographed picture they d hold em for their buddies pete clark
rec.sport.hockey	re goalie masks in article hydra gatech edu gtd a prism gatech edu hrivnak writes i m starting an informal poll on goalie masks i d like to know who s mask you think looks the best i ve always like curtis joseph s of the blues the best anyway send your nominations to me or post your vote here on r s h my e mail adress is gtd a prism gatech edu thanks for your time i saw a mask once that had drawings of band aids presumably for every puck that goalie stopped with his face head i can t remember who it was or even if it was nhl i see quite a few ahl games here this is by far the funniest mask i ve seen and for me funny cool go skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite go braves an effect on you mike patton faith no more go hornets go capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd a prism gatech edu barfly
rec.sport.hockey	re plus minus stat in article ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes certainly pluggers are an integral part of any team and that is simply because there are not enough solid two way players to go around who would you rather have as your checking centre doug gilmour or doug jarvis for that matter i would take either gretzky or mario as my checking centres do you think gretzky could cover bob gainey gretzky lemieux gilmour etc do not play the role of checking centreman they play an offensive role as opposed to a defensive one if they were used as defensive centres it would be a waste of their offensive abilities when you compare gretzky et al to jarvis gainey etc you are comparing apples and oranges it is like me telling you that felix potvin isn t very good because a team would be better if the had lemieux instead of him sure lemieux is a better player but he is a different type of player for a team to be successful they need to have all types of players this includes defensive forwards when compared with other defensive forwards bob gainey is the greatest defensive forward ever he is the player who s talents best suited being a defensive forward who completely dominated the game when he played maybe if a more talented player such as gretzky had decided to waste his offensive talents and play defensively he could have been a better defensive forward but he wasn t bob gainey is the best defensive forward that has ever played hockey gregmeister
rec.sport.hockey	get real caps have no chance anyone who really believes that the caps can beat the pens are kidding themselves the pens may not loose one game in the playoffs geoff filinuk flyers fan
rec.sport.hockey	re individual winners was re where are the doubters now hmm in apr cci cci com dwk cci cci com dave kehrer writes well since you mentioned it in article apr jarvis csri toronto edu migod turing toronto edu mike godfrey writes chelios the norris if you asked me days ago i d agree with you i now give the nod to raymond bourque his play took off the same time the b s did chelios gets a close second how about kevin hatcher scored roughly goals plays minutes a game dunno who wins the vezina but i suspect not potvin barrasso finally gets his due in a close one over eddie the eagle that s really sad when two second rate goalies barasso and belfour are the main contenders for the vezina call me crazy but how about tommy soderstrom five shutouts for a th place team that doesn t really play defense it s really unfortunate that the better goalies in the league mclean essensa vernon had unspectacular years btw if you are going to award the norris on the basis of the last days why not give the vezina to moog he has been the best goalie over the past month coach of the year is tricky burns did the most with the least raw talent king did a good job but the flames clearly underachieved last year brian sutter has done exceptionally well in his first year with a new team ditto demers page has been blessed by the ripening and acquisition of young talent darryl sutter is having a good year for a rookie coach berry made the best of a bad situation terry crisp worked minor miracles and bowman was bowman i d pick burns but i m mildly biased in your case that bias is acceptable mine shows with the norris pick so we re even i m impressed with what all the coaches you mentioned did but my pick would be al arbour not too many folks thought the isles would be in the playoffs let alone contend for rd in their division granted that they did have a little help from their cousins on broadway and i like the islanders about as much as i like mowing my lawn arbour or king burns will probably win since playoffs aren t taken into consideration he s ok in the regular season but i m not sure if he s beaten anyone other than hartford in the playoffs vlad the impaler
rec.sport.hockey	re david polie s future in article apr ncsu edu fmsalvat eos ncsu edu frank michae salvatore writes bad news for the patrick division next year caps gm david polie is reportedly trying to get a front office job with the nhl i can t believe polie has not been fired despite years of mediocrity you know what frank it s not david poile s fault that the caps have mired in mediocrity for so long blame it on the owner abe polin this guy owns both the nba s bullets and the nhl s capitals how dumb and selfish could this guy be he s unwilling to spend the bucks in order to get a big star to landover no wonder both teams stink i ve heard that the capitals had a chance to get detroit s steve yzerman last summer but they pulled out at the last minute why because our good man abe is afraid to spend the cash nevertheless i m still faithful and hoping that one day this devilish dictator will be replaced frank salvatore fmsalvat eos ncsu edu tuan a van does it matter where you buy your underwear tom cruise rain man t a van a k a archmage q what s orange black and ugly george mason university and dwells in the basement electrical engineering a da philadelphia flyers tva gmuvax gmu edu tva mason gmu edu let s go cap i tals
rec.sport.hockey	re winning streaks in article rap psuvm psu edu rap psuvm psu edu robbie po writes the penguins game unbeaten streak carries over to next season meaning if they start the season with another game unbeaten streak they will have eclipsed the flyers record right now the penguins are on an game winning streak as streaks carry over from one year to another hmmmm i m not sure this is true according to mike lang and good old stagie along with the rest of the tv crews in pittsburgh they winning streak could have stopped because it is a regular season mark i would think this would also hold with an unbeaten streak for regular season games however you are right that the playoff streak does carry over from last year and with more win i believe they tie an edmonton record but don t quote me on that one robbie po pgh penguins it won t be easy but it contact for the stanley cup will have greater rewards penn state lady lions champions mountains and valleys are rap psuvm psu edu straight wins better than nothing at all
rec.sport.hockey	re plus minus stat in article apr sol uvic ca gballent hudson uvic ca greg ballentine writes in article tnclus tele nokia fi hahietanen tnclus tele nokia fi writes in article apr sol uvic ca gballent vancouver uvic ca greg ballentine writes is a good stat because it is the only stat that i am aware of that takes into account defensive play it isn t a measure of defensive play it takes into account offense and defence all aspects of play if we are interested of real all round players the power play stats should be considered too because the power play is also one aspect of play there is still something to be done with these player evaluation tools imo any good player should score on power plays because of the man advantage very good power play scorers tend to become overrated because their point totals are inflated by power play points tends to expose these overrated players such as brett hull john cullen and dave andreychuck given the opportunity to play power play consistently any player can inflate his totals gregmeister except for vancouver of course bure has a hard time scoring on that power play he s got shorthanded goals and pp goals i think
rec.sport.hockey	playoff pool rules entry form well the tentative rules anyway and of course since the season is not entirely over tentative entry form but who cares the real hockey season is starting here s the deal you email preferably or post your predictions and the number of games you think each series will go each round will be weighted so that the stanley cup finals will be very important but the early rounds will still be important here is the scoring pick st round winner way off on games points pick st round winner within one game points pick st round winner pick of games points pick nd round winner way off on games points pick nd round winner within one game points pick nd round winner pick of games points pick conference champ way off on games points pick conference champ within one game points pick conference champ pick of games points pick stanley cup champ way off on games points pick stanley cup champ within one game points pick stanley cup champ pick of games points pick loser in series goes points pick loser in series decided in game ot points these last two are sympathy points probably won t happen anyway obviously picking the stanley cup champion is important i will do some tests to see if the format is fair but probably i will be too lazy to modify it so the scoring will probably be like this as for entry forms well this post is getting too long so see next post keith keller let s go rangers let s go quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs when i want your opinion i ll give it to you
rec.sport.hockey	entry form for playoff pool okay here s the entry sheet keep in mind that not all spots are decided so it may change series your pick games division semis ny islanders pittsburgh new jersey washington buffalo boston montreal quebec st louis chicago toronto detroit winnipeg vancouver los angeles calgary division finals patrick adams norris smythe conference finals wales campbell stanley cup winner see previous post for scoring good luck keith keller let s go rangers let s go quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs when i want your opinion i ll give it to you
rec.sport.hockey	bridgman is out the ottwawa senators fired mel bridgman at pm today randy sexton is gonna replace him stephane lacelle s w engineer insert sig here gandalf data ltd
rec.sport.hockey	re playoff telecasts in atlanta in article c jabd acsu buffalo edu hammerl acsu buffalo edu valerie s hammerl writes i d personally prefer buffalo boston as a birthday gift from espn but i don t think the folks at espn will accomodate that for me espn has this inexplicable affinity for the patrick division it seems first happy birthday val second espn s affinity with patrick has probably more to do with the travel production costs for a once a week nhn national hockey night affair espn abc owner capital cities is a company known for being quite thrifty with minimal overhead costs it s quite possible that jim schoenfeld may be working for doughnuts gary thorne and bill clement are both nj based and the rest of espn crew resides in the suburban ct with a very close proximity to tri state area plus it makes sense in terms of solid hockey following in the northeast corridor pa ny nj dc maryland whereas in the adams you have only american based teams out of which buffalo and hartford are not in top us tv markets ppv mark
rec.sport.hockey	ahl season in review off ice stuff here is a review of some of the off ice things that have affected the ahl this year st john s maple leafs problems the st john s maple leafs sophomore season has been plagued by problems on ice the leafs won the atlantic division title but off ice was less happy a strike by public workers has forced the leafs out of the newfoundland city for much of the last half of the seaosn since mid jan they have played home games in places like montreal cornwall and charlottetown their playoff home games will be played in the metro center in halifax ns one demostration got violent workers attacked a leafs bus and rocked it and broke windows in the st john s memorial stadium despite the problems toronto officials insist that the leafs will return to st john s once the strike ends senators sold the new haven senators have been sold by peter shipman to the ottawa senators nhl organization they are the only canadian nhl team with an american ahl affiliate and have made it clear they intend to move the team to somewhere in the canadian atlantic provinces this sale and move has yet to be approved by the ahl head office but is expected to pass easily at the general meeting in may the quote in the story from jack butterfield made it clear the league was more interested in the stability of the ahl franchise accompanied by nhl ownership rather than maintaining the year history of the ahl in new haven the senators are currently in serious negotiations with charlottetown new brunswick and are expected to move there dallas helps hawks stay in moncton after announcing that they would pull their affiliation out of moncton the winnipeg jets changed their mind the jets announced the move when they said that they would be slashing their minor league roster from something to around a dozen and they wanted to share with an existing ahl or ihl franchise enter the dallas lone stars dallas agreed to supply the remaining or players to the moncton franchise thus keeping the hawks in the new brunswick city the deal is for one year and will be extended to three years if the season ticket base increases to over the hawks only sold for this year saint john flames official the calgary flames have officially signed a deal with the city of saint john nb the saint john blue flames will play in the exhibition center the flames still have to apply for an expansion frnachise from the ahl but are expected to have no trouble caps follow jacks to maine despite rumors to the contrary the capitals will follow the baltimore skipjacks to maine the caps current farm team the baltimore skipjacks announced that they would move to maine and become the portland pirates there was much doubt as to if the caps would follow but they announced a limited deal with portland they would supply a dozen or so players including goalies they become the third team to announce a limited farm team along with moncton and the capital district islanders ahl game of the week in early january the ahl started a game of the week the game produced by i believe pyman productions was televised across the canadian maritimes and northeastern us the first few weeks saw two games of the week one in canada and another in the us but since then there has been only one sunday afternoon and night games were covered and shown on sportschannel ny and ne in the us and i believe atlantic sports network in canada but i m not sure about that i am not sure if playoff games will be covered utica gone syracuse added there were heavy rumors that the utica devils will not be around next season there were rumors that they might be headed to a midwestern city and that the city of syracuse is trying to lure them what the ahl might look like next year one option another option northern division southern division adirondack red wings adirondack springfield indians springfield providence bruins providence cd islanders cdi portland pirates hershey binghamton southern division rochester hershey bears hamilton binghamton rangers utica rochester americans hamilton canucks atlantic division utica devils portland st john s atlantic division saint john st john s maple leafs moncton moncton hawks halifax halifax citadels fredericton cape breton oilers cape breton fredericton canadiens charlottetown saint john blue flames charlottetown senators move is unofficial as yet bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl and ecac contact for rec sport hockey go usa hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champ glens falls high school division ii ny state champs join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu congrats to clarkson golden knights hockey ecac champions
rec.sport.hockey	ahl news dallas helps hawks stay in moncton after announcing that they would pull their affiliation out of moncton the winnipeg jets changed their mind the jets announced the move when they said that they would be slashing their minor league roster from something to around a dozen and they wanted to share with an existing ahl or ihl franchise enter the dallas lone stars dallas agreed to supply the remaining or players to the moncton franchise thus keeping the hawks in the new brunswick city the deal is for one year and will be extended to three years if the season ticket base increases to over the hawks only sold for this year saint john flames official the calgary flames have officially signed a deal with the city of saint john nb the saint john blue flames will play in the exhibition center the flames still have to apply for an expansion frnachise from the ahl but are expected to have no trouble caps follow jacks to maine despite rumors to the contrary the capitals will follow the baltimore skipjacks to maine the caps current farm team the baltimore skipjacks announced that they would move to maine and become the portland pirates there was much doubt as to if the caps would follow but they announced a limited deal with portland they would supply a dozen or so players including goalies they become the third team to announce a limited farm team along with moncton and the capital district islanders bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl and ecac contact for rec sport hockey go usa hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey ny division ii state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu congrats to the boston bruins adams division champions phoenix suns pacific division champions
rec.sport.hockey	plus minus stat post of newsgroups rec sport hockey from maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard subject re plus minus stat organization dept of computer science laurentian university sudbury on date thu apr gmt in ld b w w sms business uwo ca j david sms business uwo ca james david writes it was bryan trottier not denis potvin it was a vicious boarding from behind trottier was given a major perhaps it was trottier it happened behind the habs goal if i recall gainey simply didn t have his head up as he was picking up the puck but roger what the hell does this have to do with gainey s skill as a hockey player if probert smashes gilmour s head into the boards next week will that diminish your assessment of gilmour s skills if gilmour was taken completely by surprise as gainey was then yeah i would have to say that doug wasn t playing technically smart hockey in any case to claim as greg did that gainey never made a technical mistake is absolutely ludicrous later on in your posting you make reference to putting words into other people s mouths i would suggest that your last paragraph can only be interpreted in one way namely that i along with greg claim that gainey never made a technical mistake if you actually read what i ve written you will find that i make no such claim soooo if logic serves me well you re contradicting yourself gainey was a plugger and when the press runs out of things to say about the stars on dynasties they start to hype the pluggers grant fuhr essa tikkannen butch goring bob nystrom bob gainey doug jarvis derek sanderson wayne cashman bob baun bob pulford ralph backstrom henri richard dick duff and so on i would take fuhr and sanderson off of the latter good for you you d only be displaying your ignorance of course but to each his own roger i m not sure here but i think ignorance is really a function of a lack of knowledge and not formulating an opinion but hey if you need to take a cheap shot then by all means go ahead that s if it makes you feel better i think gainey would be honoured to know that you ve included him i think gainey should feel honoured to know that he is remembered at all my word such vehemence against poor ol bob gainey why does he bother you so much he was an effective player for his style of play on this list i also think you have a relatively naive view about what wins a hockey game pluggers are an integral part of certainly pluggers are an integral part of any team and that is simply because there are not enough solid two way players to go around who would you rather have as your checking centre doug gilmour or doug jarvis for that matter i would take either gretzky or mario as my checking centres do you think gretzky could cover bob gainey i m really sorry roger but you have lost me completely here why don t you ask me if i would rather have jesus christ himself in nets now if you were to compare say for example bob gainey with guy carbonneau you would have a balanced comparison any team the selke is designed to acknowledge their contribution i think that most people understand that it s not the nobel prize so settle down you re wrong again the selke is awarded to the forward that does the best job defensively and this may or may not be the best plugger if gilmour does the best defensive job in the league i don t see why he should be out of the running simply because he also contributes offen sively i m wrong again hmmm let s see where was i wrong in the first place i m only guessing here rog but i have a feeling that you ve setup a you re wrong again macro key on your machine i agree that my use of the word plugger is simplistic but i think you know what i m getting at i would also like to point out that gilmour s potential as a selke winner was never part of the debate are you asking me for an opinion if so i think there are far too many other deserving players to include gilmour among the candidates settle down if you think that i have likened the selke to the nobel prize then i suggest that you had best settle down and if you are going to try to put words in my mouth let me suggest that you settle down before you bother following up on my postings i would suggest that your comment and when the press runs out of things to say about the stars on dynasties they start to hype the pluggers grant fuhr essa tikkannen butch goring bob nystrom bob gainey doug jarvis derek sanderson wayne cashman bob baun bob pulford ralph backstrom henri richard dick duff and so on demonstrates a blanket disregard for these individuals as contributors to the game so yes settle down nobody has claimed that they are hockey gods congenially as always jd james david david student business uwo ca you might consider developing your own style after all imitation is the sincerest form of flattery and i am quite sure that flattery is not your intention c mon it has a nice ring to it and admit it you had a good laugh congenially as always jd james david david student business uwo ca j david sms business uwo ca james david western business school london ontario
rec.sport.hockey	only test message it s only test message
rec.sport.hockey	nhl team items i live in the desolate midwest as far as hockey is concerned and our sports stores around here carry very little hockey stuff except for san jose tampa bay l a pittsburgh and if you re lucky chicago i would like to know if anyone knows of any m ail order phone order stores that i might be able to get in contact with i am dying for some real hockey stuff hats shirts key chains etc for some other teams edmonton montreal etc so if you have any information please e mail me directly most appreciated good luck to your teams in the stanley cup playoffs go edmonton likely not maybe next year if you assult someone you get years in hockey minutes is this a great sport or what kevin d frank kfrank magnus acs ohio state edu
rec.sport.hockey	yet more crazy predictions well here it goes my crazy predictions which never come true but hey adams bos vs buf bos in cakewalk for the hot bruins que vs mon que in best series of the first round patrick pit vs nyi pit in nyi wins fourth game was vs njd njd in a grueling upset possibly ot in game norris chi vs stl chi in stl is no match for keenan s krew det vs tor tor in clark steps it up in playoffs this year smythe who cares van vs win win in so i m caught up in teemu mania sue me cal vs lak cal in la sucks imo division finals bos vs que bos in killer games watch for cam to shine pit vs njd pit in njd go insane kill all on ice but pit wins chi vs tor tor in tor defense finally get it together cal vs win cal in win too tired after st series conference finals pit vs bos bos in pit too beat up by njd to play i hope cal vs tor tor in vernon turns into a sieve stanley cup bos vs tor tor in two totally different teams who knows dreams can come true pig might one day evolve wings feel free to laugh at my predictions i always do barfly
rec.sport.hockey	re plus minus stat in vfq b w w sms business uwo ca j david sms business uwo ca james david writes if gilmour was taken completely by surprise as gainey was then yeah i would have to say that doug wasn t playing technically smart hockey in any case to claim as greg did that gainey never made a technical mistake is absolutely ludicrous later on in your posting you make reference to putting words into other people s mouths i would suggest that your last paragraph can only be interpreted in one way namely that i along with greg claim that gainey never made a technical mistake if you actually read what i ve written you will find that i make no such claim soooo if logic serves me well you re contradicting yourself nonsense i quite clearly state that it was greg that made the claim that gainey never made an error and he made the claim read below from rec sport hockey thu apr from gballent hudson uvic ca greg ballentine message id apr sol uvic ca nonsense deleted gainey is the best defensive forward ever i stand by that assessment he was a very good player who belongs in the hall of fame did you ever watch him play he never made a technical error more nonsense deleted good for you you d only be displaying your ignorance of course but to each his own roger i m not sure here but i think ignorance is really a function of a lack of knowledge and not formulating an opinion but hey if you need to take a cheap shot then by all means go ahead that s if it makes you feel better to knowledgeable observers of the game my meaning is obvious your hockey education is not my responsibility my word such vehemence against poor ol bob gainey why does he bother you so much he was an effective player for his style of play he was just another player to laud him as anything more i find bothersome i hated the habs i hated lafleur until i realized that he was likely the most aesthetically pleasing player to ever skate in my lifetime why would anyone talk about gainey go around who would you rather have as your checking centre doug gilmour or doug jarvis for that matter i would take either gretzky or mario as my checking centres do you think gretzky could cover bob gainey i m really sorry roger but you have lost me completely here why don t you ask me if i would rather have jesus christ himself in nets did he play hockey at a high level was he any good if not why would you bother to bring jc up i am talking about hockey players here if you can t follow the conversation don t follow up as i said previously it is not my responsibility to educate you now if you were to compare say for example bob gainey with guy carbonneau you would have a balanced comparison sure two journeymen big deal neither one of them is worth discussing i m wrong again hmmm let s see where was i wrong in the i would take fuhr and sanderson off of the latter first place i m only guessing here rog but i have a feeling that you ve setup a you re wrong again macro key on your machine that is an excellent idea and if i decide to waste any more time responding to any of your or greg s postings then i will be sure to implement that very macro i would suggest that your comment and when the press runs out of things to say about the stars on dynasties they start to hype the pluggers grant fuhr essa tikkannen butch goring bob nystrom bob gainey doug jarvis derek sanderson wayne cashman bob baun bob pulford ralph backstrom henri richard dick duff and so on demonstrates a blanket disregard for these individuals as contributors to the game so yes settle down nobody has claimed that they are hockey gods tarasov claimed that gainey was a hockey god and greg ate it up and that is what this thread is all about if you didn t know that then why are you responding and as for blanket disregard for these individuals i can remember leaf teams purely populated by such individuals winning four stanley cups teams no one ran around telling us that george armstrong was the best hockey player in the world congenially as always jd james david david student business uwo ca you might consider developing your own style after all imitation is the sincerest form of flattery and i am quite sure that flattery is not your intention c mon it has a nice ring to it and admit it you had a good laugh right i had to get to the end of your posting before i realized you were a complete joke in the future if you are going to respond to my postings i would appreciate it if you could present a cogent argument supported by facts gleaned from a version of reality that most of the rest of us would recognize cordially as always rm roger maynard maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca
rec.sport.hockey	re how to beat pittsburgh in article afnkovk uhb rdtj andrew cmu edu robert angelo pleshar rp andrew cmu edu writes kfnjyea uh i vmus andrew cmu edu nntp posting host po andrew cmu edu in reply to kfnjyea uh i vmus andrew cmu edu from anna matyas now if we could just clone chelios s personality and transplant it into all of the defensemen on the islanders capitals and devils gerald in other words you want to turn them all into assholes so they will spend lots of time in the penalty box and get lots of misconducts and this comes from a chelios fan yeah and also be second in the team in scoring and play about minutes a game and play on the power play and kill penalties and be the best defenseman in the league i d take a whole team of chelioses if i could that way when one got a penalty the others could kill it ralph how to beat pittsburgh i mario lemieux a death too much kimo slash to skull ask the rangers slashing his wrist ii jaromir jagr a deportation send him back to whatever commie country he s from tell him that bill clinton is going too iii kevin stevens a fighting call bob probert call tie domi call my grandmother she d kick his ass
rec.sport.hockey	re ahl news st john s news part xxxviii brifre ac dal ca writes in article apr news clarkson edu farenebt craft camp clarkson edu droopy writes pete raymond emailed me this piece of info not sure if game was intentionally or unintentionally omitted ie date not set bri begin quoted material because of the moncton win friday night halifax was eliminated thus st john s will make halifax home the first round of play offs wil take place on these dates april halifax metro center leafs home game april halifax metro center april moncton april moncton april halifax metro center april moncton this is a halifax or at least this halifax resident s dream come true the leafs are my favorite nhl team and no i don t know why i d say that this is even better than the citadels making the playoffs a quebec farm team who cares by the way for any nfld fans i m sure asn will carry some of the games they d be stupid not to but then this is asn i haven t heard any news about asn carrying any games but the local cable station here in st john s cable is carrying the games live hey it s better than nothing go leafs go dale why sex is so popular dale fraser dale odie cs mun ca is easy to see memorial university of newfoundland it contains no sodium cs undergrad class of and it s cholesterol free shelby friedman blue jays world series champs opinions expressed above do not belong to me or this institution
rec.sport.hockey	re hockey and the hispanic community icop csa bu edu antonio pera writes the presence of the new team in miami i can t say south florida it s too long makes me think of an interesting question can you sell the hispanic community on hockey miami is hispanic this community has no experience and no previous exposure to hockey that i know of the teams in ny and la which also have big hispanic groups do not seem to try to woo this group what will miami do could they get spanish language tv and radio coverage i think as do the owners that hockey will do well in miami since there is a lot of people from the northeast that spend their winters in florida every year as for the coverage someone will have to come up with some money for that since broadcast rights can be expensive just my dale why sex is so popular dale fraser dale odie cs mun ca is easy to see memorial university of newfoundland it contains no sodium cs undergrad class of and it s cholesterol free shelby friedman blue jays world series champs opinions expressed above do not belong to me or this institution
rec.sport.hockey	re espn tonight in qkj kinn g master cs rose hulman edu swartzjh rosevc rose hulman edu writes has anyone heard what game espn is showing tonight they said they will show whatever game means the most playoff wise i would assume this would be the blues tampa game or the minnesota red wings game anyone heard for sure jeff swartz i heard it will be the minnesota detroit game don t know the time though dave david monack e mail monack gas uug arizona edu love is the delusion that one woman differs from another h l mencken
rec.sport.hockey	bruins in the playoffs well bruins fans it s playoff time again it looks like the b s have peaked at the right time getting out of the adams is going to be a cat fight to the end after what they did to montreal and quebec these teams will be out for revenge if neely can stay healthy and both bourque and moog stay sharp we should get to see neely finally take out two years of frustration on ulf i don t fight samuelson i don t agree with fighting in the nhl but if there is one guy who deserves to be taken out good it s him this is going to be a good series go bruins rchard richard amc com
rec.sport.hockey	plus minus stat post of newsgroups rec sport hockey from maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard subject re plus minus stat organization dept of computer science laurentian university sudbury on date fri apr gmt discussion deleted good for you you d only be displaying your ignorance of course but to each his own roger i m not sure here but i think ignorance is really a function of a lack of knowledge and not formulating an opinion but hey if you need to take a cheap shot then by all means go ahead that s if it makes you feel better to knowledgeable observers of the game my meaning is obvious your hockey education is not my responsibility my hockey education what the f are you talking about i m not even going to try to refute this absolutely insane statement my word such vehemence against poor ol bob gainey why does he bother you so much he was an effective player for his style of play he was just another player to laud him as anything more i find bothersome i hated the habs i hated lafleur until i realized that he was likely the most aesthetically pleasing player to ever skate in my lifetime why would anyone talk about gainey i hate the habs you sound like a year old this statement is just further exemplifies your total inability to argue objectively about hockey don t give me this crap about cogent arguments i ve yet to read something of yours that is cogent you consistently argue with emotion huge sweeping statements frankly you have a very unconvincing style i m not defending bob gainey frankly i don t care for him all that much but your dismissal of him as something less than an effective hockey player is tiresome it has no basis in anything how many calders did he win i think it was four go ahead and refresh my memory what about the conn smythe was that a fluke yeah not the makings of a hockey superstar i know but try to have a reason any reason to shoot him down go around who would you rather have as your checking centre doug gilmour or doug jarvis for that matter i would take either gretzky or mario as my checking centres do you think gretzky could cover bob gainey i m really sorry roger but you have lost me completely here why don t you ask me if i would rather have jesus christ himself in nets did he play hockey at a high level was he any good if not why would you bother to bring jc up i am talking about hockey players here if you can t follow the conversation don t follow up as i said previously it is not my responsibility to educate you hey cowboy you re the expert who introduced the idiotic comparison of gainey with gretzky and lemieux you figure it out now if you were to compare say for example bob gainey with guy carbonneau you would have a balanced comparison sure two journeymen big deal neither one of them is worth discussing how many individual awards between them eight i don t remember once again please feel free to refresh my memory and try to be as sarcastic as possible about my hockey education i m wrong again hmmm let s see where was i wrong in the i would take fuhr and sanderson off of the latter oh my god did i say that roger what s your point fuhr is a goaltender goaltender s don t plug in his prime he was one of the best sanderson was a scrapper if you stick him on you may as well include half the flyers team of the same era first place i m only guessing here rog but i have a feeling that you ve setup a you re wrong again macro key on your machine that is an excellent idea and if i decide to waste any more time responding to any of your or greg s postings then i will be sure to implement that very macro oh roger you shouldn t really i don t deserve this you are far too accomodating already i would suggest that your comment and when the press runs out of things to say about the stars on dynasties they start to hype the pluggers grant fuhr essa tikkannen butch goring bob nystrom bob gainey doug jarvis derek sanderson wayne cashman bob baun bob pulford ralph backstrom henri richard dick duff and so on demonstrates a blanket disregard for these individuals as contributors to the game so yes settle down nobody has claimed that they are hockey gods tarasov claimed that gainey was a hockey god and greg ate it up and that is what this thread is all about if you didn t know that then why are you responding you seem to have allowed all of these other players fall into your sweeping vacuous statement that s why if you want to debate gainey go ahead but why bring up everybody else how does it support your argument do you have an argument or do you just like to throw around a few names hoping to impress us and as for blanket disregard for these individuals i can remember leaf teams purely populated by such individuals winning four stanley cups teams no one ran around telling us that george armstrong was the best hockey player in the world great i couldn t agree more the flyers won two cups for the same reasons deservedly so so what i don t get it are you angry that the leafs didn t get more recognition you seem to think these pluggers are hyped i don t agree plain and simple if you re last statement is some sort of compromise fair enough you might consider developing your own style after all imitation is the sincerest form of flattery and i am quite sure that flattery is not your intention c mon it has a nice ring to it and admit it you had a good laugh right i had to get to the end of your posting before i realized you were a complete joke not a pleasant bone in your body eh rog why are you so unhappy not getting invited to enough parties what in the future if you are going to respond to my postings i would appreciate it if you could present a cogent argument supported by facts gleaned from a version of reality that most of the rest of us would recognize roger why are you under the impression that responding to your posts is some great honour you really should stop it sounds a little bit pathetic frankly it s about as honourable as a good fart congenially as always jd james david j david student business uwo ca s j david sms business uwo ca james david western business school london ontario
rec.sport.hockey	re playoff predictions patrick st rd pens over isles in devils over caps in nd pens over devils in adams st rd b s over sabres in nords over habs in nd b s over nords in norris st hawks over stars blues in wings over leafs in nd hawks over wings in smythe st jets over canucks in call it a hunch flames over kings in nd jets over flames in wales pens over b s in campbell hawks over jets in stanley pens over hawks in bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl and ecac contact for rec sport hockey go usa hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey ny division ii state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu congrats to the boston bruins adams division champions phoenix suns pacific division champions
rec.sport.hockey	tv schedule for next week united states tv schedule april devils islanders at pittsburgh est abc to eastern time zone april st louis at chicago cdt abc to cent mou time zones april los angeles at calgary pdt abc to pacific time zone april devils islanders at pittsburgh espn april tba espn april tba espn if somebody would send me the cbc tsn schedule i ll post that as well mike burger my canada includes quebec ontario mmb lamar colostate edu the maritimes the prairies and florida a beginning computing ta stud four months a year over students served royal canadian air farce university of michigan colorado state university
rec.sport.hockey	re hockey and the hispanic community in article c i s bt odin corp sgi com rickc wrigley corp sgi com richard casares writes when was the last time you saw a hockey league in the inner city well actually now that you mention it a few weeks ago the cbc ran a documentary on ice hockey in harlem the canadian club of new york something like that sponsors a league for kids in harlem and based on the tv report they all seemed to be having a lot of fun all playing with regular equipment jerseys etc etc on a proper outdoor rink it looked just like kids playing hockey anywhere else some of the kids were even fortunate to get a trip to a hockey camp in alberta
rec.sport.hockey	re plus minus stat in article apr sol uvic ca gballent vancouver uvic ca writes what it comes down to is that jagr despite being an arrogant asshole is a very good hockey player who has had a better season this year than ron francis jagr has more points and a better jagr has a higher but francis has had more points and take it from an informed observer ronnie francis has had a much better season than jaromir jagr this is not to take anything away from jaro who had a decent year although it didn t live up to the expectations of some gregmeister dean dean j falcione badges what badges we using jrmst by permission don t need no stinkin of the owner joe mcdonald badges
rec.sport.hockey	re playoff predictions st round pitt vs nyi pitt in wash vs njd wash in bos vs buf bos in que vs mon mon in i d have to take quebec in chi vs stl chi in hawks will win but it will take det vs tor det in van vs win win in cal vs la cal in cal in nd round pitt vs wash pitt in bos vs mon bos in boston will beat quebec in chi vs det chi in win vs cal cal in rd round pitt vs bos pitt in pitt in the bruins arent a pushover chi vs cal chi in the hawks havent had problems with them all year yep i agree finals pitt vs chi pitt in unless the hawks can somehow change fate you re right who knows though maybe some intensive forechecking aka normal hawks style will nullify a seemingly unbeatable team maybe the pens are due for a let down hell how could they possibly extend their record making play all the way through the playoffs walter damien endemyr the unpure knight of doom so i ve acquired a taste for blood and have adopted a nocturnal lifestyle that doesnt mean i m a vampire
rec.sport.hockey	re get real caps have no chance in article apr staff dccs upenn edu filinuk staff dccs upenn edu geoff filinuk writes anyone who really believes that the caps can beat the pens are kidding themselves the pens may not loose one game in the playoffs let s be honest the pens may not loose one game as you put it but they will definitely lose one game remember the regular season doesn t mean much when it comes to playoff time the caps have a shot at least the flyers sure don t frank salvatore fmsalvat eos ncsu edu
rec.sport.hockey	re individual winners was re where are the doubters now hmm in article apr cci cci com dwk cci cci com dave kehrer wrote well since you mentioned it in article apr jarvis csri toronto edu migod turing toronto edu mike godfrey writes lemieux is clearly the mvp no question here chip in the masterson as well lemieux for the masterson no doubt he had an awe inspiring season but what personal records did he set this year lemieux should have hart locked up but how about mike gartner for the masterson
rec.sport.hockey	re goalie masks in article netnews upenn edu kkeller mail sas upenn edu keith keller writes my vote goes to john vanbiesbrouck his mask has a skyline of new york city and on the sides there are a bunch of bees beezer it looks really sharp doesn t it also have the statue of liberty on it or is that richter s mask the back actually has a bee followed by a z to represent the beezer it also has something that looks like the three interconnecting circles from the led zepplin album cover is that what it is supposed to be and if it is does anybody know why he would put it there ali keith keller let s go rangers when i want your opinion i ll give it to you john the official language of golf is profanity in hockey hell jwodzia eng clemson edu john r wodziak the real black and gold in memorium alan kulwicki bean will triumph over those who a polish yankee mechanical engineer town are pretenders to the crown winston cup champion a great person rocks
rec.sport.hockey	re pens info needed in article apr ericsson se etxonss ufsa ericsson se staffan axelsson writes actually swedish coach curt lundmark is thinking about leaving two spots open for additions from eliminated nhlers it is mats sundin and calle johansson that curt hopes can join the team although in a late stage of the tournament technically i seem to recall that you can leave spots open until hrs before the wc final hmmm i also heard through the grapevine that team finland might try and leave a spot open for at least one nhler some guy named sel nne ever hear of him they might have to be content with kurri though i hope daryl turner r s h contact for the winnipeg jets internet umturne ccu umanitoba ca fidonet or please route through tkachuk over to zhamnov up to sel nne he shoots he scores the jets win the cup the jets win the cup essensa for vezina housley for norris sel nne for calder
rec.sport.hockey	re plus minus stat in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes from maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard subject re plus minus stat date wed apr gmt in dreier apr jacobi berkeley edu dreier jacobi berkeley edu roland dreier writes selanne s leads the jets teppo numminen is who do you think is better defensively ron francis of the penguins is although he has points while jaromir jagr has only points but is is jagr really better on defense than francis and how exactly should we interpret the fact that mario lemieux has by far the highest in the league does he get the selke as well as the ross the plus minus does not measure defense alone it attempts to measure a player s total contribution to the team effort and certainly it is far from perfect and my posting never implied otherwise all that my posting suggested was that the was a better indicator of a player s effectiveness when examined in the context of that player s team s performance than mere scoring totals alone and as for mario getting the selke why not after doug gilmour i would rather have lemieux on the ice in any situation other than as an enforcer obvi ously than any player in the game i used to call the selke the bob gainey award it came about as a result of the statement made by anatoli tarasov bob gainey is the best hockey player in the world i am sure that tarasov was either misquoted originally or had a tiny bit too much vodka and was toying with a reporter in any event the nhl decided to honour one dimensional checkers along with one dimen sional scorers maybe the league should start awarding the doug gil mour award anually to the league s most effective all round player cordially as always rm roger maynard maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca hey what about the roger maynard award for the most annoying fan derrick m jewlal laurel st apt waterloo
rec.sport.hockey	sharks review part goaltenders as the sharks season came to a close tonight i will start a series of posts trying to revisit the players the trades the moves etc that went through for the sharks for the past season if you are uninterested since i will have the words sharks review in the subject heading in these postings you can kill them i will first try to evaluate how the players did these ratings of course are subject to my own biases but i hope that i can try to be as objective as possible i will evalute players who finished the season with the sharks and or did not play for another nhl team this season thus then let s go to the goaltenders brian hayward season th acquired from minnesota in dispersal draft grade p d it is sad that his career has to come to this dim an end a career that featured sharing three jennings trophies with patrick roy in and it would indeed be unfair for me to do anything but give him a passing grade and skip the letter grading but he had simply been awful on ice this year save for a bright spot or two and even if he had been healthy he would not be any more than the rd string goalie but hayward was a classy individual who also figured in on the sharks first ever victory the rd game of the season last year against the calgary flames as he retires the fans will remember what a good guy he was jeff hackett season rd acquired from n y islanders in expansion draft grade c hackett after deservedly winning the team mvp honors last season simply wasted the year other than a few good spots saves against los angeles almost shutout against tampa bay etc hackett finishing with save percentage and a gaa watched his status go from the team s goalie to bench decoration at the end of the season he was expected early to carry the team along instead he apparently became frustrated but the an early injury that forced him to miss games may have been a contributing factor but upon return he simply wasn t up to the task he may not return next year wade flaherty season st still eligible as rookie acquired signed as undrafted free agent grade i a it is pretty hard to evaluate a goaltender on just one game alone thus the incomplete grade but yet in the one start that he did get against the calgary flames flaherty was nothing but sharp for at least two periods he started the season poorly in kansas city but finished strong prompting the blades owner ron parker to comment that he should be a candidate for the ihl mvp honors the upcoming ihl playoffs would be a major challenge for him as he tries to make it into the nhl last year he was a capable backup for arturs irbe in the throughout the season and in the turner cup playoffs picking up all star honors along with irbe now it s time for him to show that he can share the job with irbe next year because with prospects dan ryder trevor robins and scott cashman coming along if he doesn t make it next year he may not ever arturs irbe season st acquired from minnesota in dispersal draft grade b i may yet be overly critical of irbe in a year that he clearly established that he s a bona fide nhl goaltender perhaps a bona fide goaltender he has provided most of the little highlight footage that the sharks team had getting the team s first ever shut out against the los angeles kings on december he has been fearless in and out of the net aggressively playing the puck and making passes reminding people of a young ron hextall except of course the goonism yet he still needs to develop more consistency which is hard to do with such a bad defense in front of him but if the sharks are to challenge for a playoff spot next season irbe s the key as he demonstrated in being named as a star of the game times in starts go calgary flames al macinnis for norris gary roberts for hart and smythe go edmonton oilers go for playoffs next year stay in edmonton nelson lu claudius leland stanford edu rec sport hockey contact for the san jose sharks
rec.sport.hockey	british championship playoffs apr group a group b cardiff devils bracknell bees nottingham panthers billingham humberside whitley warriors murrayfield racers fife flyers whitley bay cardiff devils billingham bombers murrayfield humberside bracknell bees nottingham panthers fife flyers cardiff devils humberside murrayfield racers nottingham bracknell bees whitley bay fife flyers billingham bracknell bees cardiff devils billingham bombers nottingham whitley bay humberside fife flyers murrayfield p w d l f a p p w d l f a p cardiff devils murrayfield racers humberside nottingham panthers whitley bay billingham bombers bracknell bees fife flyers indicates qualified for championship finals relegation promotion a relegation promotion b basingstoke swindon wildcats sheffield steelers peterborough durham wasps romford raiders slough jets mk kings basingstoke durham wasps sheffield steelers milton keynes swindon romford raiders milton keynes kings peterborough durham wasps swindon wildcats slough jets sheffield romford basingstoke peterborough slough jets romford durham wasps peterborough sheffield swindon basingstoke milton keynes kings slough jets p w d l f a p p w d l f a p basingstoke sheffield steelers durham wasps peterborough swindon milton keynes kings romford raiders slough jets o neil a mcglynn o nmcglynn axion bt co uk o british telecom laboratories martlesham heath ipswich uk
rec.sport.hockey	stop predicting it is really annoying to see all of these predictions on the net who really cares who you think will win please stop with the predictions we all know the caps are going to win the cup so let it go at that david kaupang cdkaupan eos ncsu edu
rec.sport.hockey	re pens info needed in article c k e m ccu umanitoba ca umturne ccu umanitoba ca daryl turner writes hmmm i also heard through the grapevine that team finland might try and leave a spot open for at least one nhler some guy named sel nne ever hear of him they might have to be content with kurri though i hope true coach matikainen is ready to keep a spot for teemu all the way until the medal games he wants teppo numminen too and kurri but for them the spots cannot be left open for too long esa tikkanen we have already even without these players i think we have pretty good team young hungry talented guys no old players that have got everything except the gold yesterday s practise game swe fin shows that the two world s best hockey teams are in prime shape the finn line riihijarvi slightly injured saarikoski viitakoski shined i bet these two teams are the best in the nhl too roger roger what do you people think about team canada with lindros brind amour burke ranford recchi dineen can they beat the finns coaching news alpo suhonen ex jets to jokerit now verified boris majorov ex jokerit to tappara vasili tichonov ex assat to san jose sharks assistant coach sakari pietila to lulea silver team in elite serien fw mikko makela ex tps to malmo if g markus ketterer jokerit still has no contract fw timo saarikoski to jokerit watch out for him in next week
rec.sport.hockey	re expanding to europe dusseldorf in article apr abo fi mlindroos finabo abo fi marcus lindroos inf writes in pkortela apr lk hp hut fi pkortela snakemail hut fi writes deg has many german born forwards in the team in fact the majority of players are german born deg had average in spectator arena interesting one of our german friends here robert told me their forwards were all canadian germans perhaps somebody can sort this out for us as far as i know dusseldorf has only one canadian german forward i e a player who was born in canada but now has a german passport benoit doucet became german by marriing a german and he is going to play for germany in the wc the other canada born forwards are peter john lee has british passport chris valentine dale dercatch steve gootas earl spry at the moment there are only three german born forwards coming into my mind bernd trunschka andreas brockmann ernst koepf volker
rec.sport.hockey	re suhonen will not go to jokerit in tvartiai vipunen hut fi tvartiai vipunen hut fi tommi vartiainen writes according to the inside information alpo suhonen won t be the next headcoach of jokerit it s pretty sure that boris majorov will continue although owner of the team previously said that he will chance the coach tommi wrong information they just announced that suhonen has made a deal with jokerit tommi and boris majorov has made a year deal with tappara svante
rec.sport.hockey	hockey playoff pool last chance this will be my last post promotion of the hockey pool i will update the pool or try to every wednesday subject please join my hockey playoff pool deadline for pool midnight saturday rules read on cost none prizes none send replies to montana pinetree org note if your entries is send by midnight saturday it will be accepted please include your name rules to the acme hockey playoff pool critierias pick forwards as long as they are forwards lw rw c is okay pick defensemen arrange them in a lines forwards and two defense line and arranged them in line order which of your players would play in the first line and which plays in the second line pick designated playmaker can be any positions try a defensemen pick designated scorer can be any positions pick goal tender pick a team the one you think may win the cup note players can only be chosen once ie cannot have sakic as forward and again as designated passer calculation of points except for designated scorer and playmaker assist pt ixi goal pt ii for players in line their pt totals will be line pts line pts line pts win pt for goalies the team that wins the cup pts for the designated playmaker designated calculation will be as follows scorer goal pts every goal scored points assists pts every assists points in the event of a tie the tie will be broken by unmodified goal totals and then by game winning goals sample eg designated scorer jeremy roenick actual g a pts modified g a designated playmaker steve smith actual g a pts modified g a line j murphy g courtnall m messier dave manson iafrate total points points for that line internet montana pinetree org david wong uucp pinetree montana gordon s pinetree ottawa on canada v bis v bis
rec.sport.hockey	re plus minus stat in apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes good for you you d only be displaying your ignorance of course but to each his own roger i m not sure here but i think ignorance is really a function of a lack of knowledge and not formulating an opinion but hey if you need to take a cheap shot then by all means go ahead that s if it makes you feel better to knowledgeable observers of the game my meaning is obvious your hockey education is not my responsibility just curious roger but since you have such a vast knowledge of the game and the league how come you haven t made a living out of it there must be a lot of demand for expertise in the field i m sure you d be of great help to say the leafs as an assistant coach or a scout or maybe try a career as a reporter or tv commentator i might be wrong of course and you already have jukka a virtanen juvirtan cc helsinki fi university of helsinki
rec.sport.hockey	sweden finland april played in scandinavium gothenburg april sweden finland st swe peter popovic markus naslund fin ville siren keijo sailynoja pp fin juha riihijarvi timo saarikoski vesa viitakoski pp nd fin jari korpisalo kari harila rauli raitanen swe jan larsson mikael renberg stefan nilsson swe hakan ahlund thomas rundqvist swe roger akerstrom roger hansson rd swe stefan nilsson patrik juhlin charles berglund fin keijo sailynoja fin keijo sailynoja ps swe mikael renberg hakan ahlund thomas rundqvist fin jari korpisalo shots on goal penalties attendance referee sweden min peter andersson finland min min sweden sweden opened the scoring as markus naslund made a drop pass at the finnish blue line popovic picked it up and advanced towards the finnish goal and shot a nice hard wrist shot in ketterer s top corner ville siren s slap shot from the blue line on power play made it and juha riihijarvi scored a nice goal in another power play when he close in front of goal put the puck high over aslin after the first period the finns started the second period with really good pressure korpisalo made it with another goal from close range high over aslin then during the finnish pressure sweden turned the game around in mikael renberg worked hard behind the finnish goal and passed the puck to jan larsson in front who backhanded the puck low rundqvist entered the finnish zone and passed to ahlund and the finnish defense let ahlund skate in and take a shot that ketterer dropped into the goal next roger hansson behind the goal sent the puck back to the blue line where roger akerstrom took a slap shot and ketterer didn t see the puck since there was traffic in front third period started with a nice goal by stefan the shadow nilsson stefan and patrik juhlin entered the finnish zone patrik passed the puck back to stefan who alone with ketterer made no mistake then keijo sailynoja show started he reduce and equalized the lead in only seconds first he scored the goal and after that he came in alone with aslin but was tripped by aslin to get a penalty shot sailynoja made a nice penalty shot showed forehand and put in with a low backhand shot the swedes seemed to head for a win when mikael renberg scored the goal late in the game on a nice power play combination renberg waited in the slot showed that he wanted the puck on the backhand side ahlund passed the puck and renberg took a turnaround shot low in ketterer s goal s far side but jari korpisalo had other plans as he only seconds later scored the game s final goal to make it korpisalo took a slap shot from a narrow angle that maybe aslin should have saved all in all a decent game where the defense wasn t the best both teams juggled around the lines a bit in the second and third period to try no combinations renberg and rundqvist plays well together in the swedish team larsson nilsson juhlin best line overall again it seems to be a working wc line stillman good on defense some players aren t good enough for the wc though hakan ahlund faell ner hjaelmen och jobba roger hansson challe berglund kenny jonsson will likely have to leave for nhl pros two goal scorers jari korpisalo and keijo sailynoja played well in the finnish team markus ketterer didn t have a very good game we ve seen him a lot better so lindfors is probably finland s starting goalie in the wc i heard that esa tikkanen will join the finnish team it would be inter resting to know which other pros coach matikainen counts on for the wc starting lines sweden finland peter aslin markus ketterer kenneth kennholt mikko haapakoski fredrik stillman ville siren hakan ahlund jarkko varvio thomas rundqvist mika nieminen mikael renberg keijo sailynoja roger akerstrom erik hamalainen arto blomsten kari harila jan larsson rauli raitanen stefan nilsson petri varis patrik juhlin jari korpisalo peter popovic timo jutila stefan larsson harri laurila roger hansson juha riihijarvi fredrik nilsson timo saarikoski peter ottosson vesa viitakoski pasi sormunen janne laukkanen markus naslund juha ylonen peter forsberg timo peltomaa jonas bergqvist marko palo played parts of the game charles berglund mika alatalo kenny jonsson saku koivu marko palo staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson se r s h contact for swedish hockey
rec.sport.hockey	finland sweden vs nhl teams was helsinki stockholm nhl expansion in tervio katk helsinki fi tervio katk helsinki fi writes now what if the two teams were merged this has been proposed in tampere with ilves lynx and tappara axe the fans wouldn t take it they rather see their teams out of the playoffs most of the time or even relegated than merged it s not that difficult to understand it s just like here in helsinki you grow up being either a jokerit or hifk fan the other team is the last team in the world you would support i m not talking about hate but about extremely deeply rooted rivalry deeply rooted rivalry ahem jokerit have been around since and joined the top flight only in the early s helsingfors ifk have been around since but fans only started taking hockey seriously in the s so i think you re exagerating here however it s been proved that both fan groups can cheer the same team that s the finnish national team maybe that s how you could set up a huge franchise in finland no one has ever said that the team must be called after one city or play all its games on one arena just one team finland and team sweden in the nhl just wouldn t make any sense we have way more talent than th of the total of north american talent after a couple of seasons you would never see the cup going anywhere outside the nordic presuming that our teams would have the advantage in drafting local talent as prooposed that s a rather bold claim in the light of how successful the canadian american olympic teams have been and they ve had to play according to our set of rules and on international ice the olympic teams contained about as much talent as your average expansion team canada had eric lindros sean burke joe juneau and chris kontos another four or five have been deep subs in the nhl as for the yanks keith tkachuk scott lachance bret hedican shawn mceachern steve heintze ted donato joe sacco and bill guerin have been rd th line players in the nhl while robb stauber has done well for the kings in goal nothing more in fact i m sure that an all star team assembled from the best finnish league teams would do no better in the nhl than hartford or tampa bay currently are doing but what happens if all top class finnish swedish players gradually end up with helsinki stockholm as the north american based ones gradually retire and no canadian american team is allowed to draft new players from scandinavia here is what the hockey news scouts think of our nhl based players superstar star nhl regular nhl regular role player finland d jyrki lumme d teppo numminen d peter ahola c jari kurri c christian ruuttu r teemu selanne l esa tikkanen obviously selanne s ratings would be higher today than they were in january sweden d ulf samuelsson d fredrik olausson d niklas lidstrom d calle johansson d kjell samuelsson d tommy sjodin d tommy albelin c mats sundin c thomas steen r thomas sandstrom r ulf dahlen r michael nylander l per erik eklund l johan garpenlov l mikael andersson l jan erixon this would be interesting clearly finland s top five players winnipeg s selanne numminen vancouver s lumme los angeles jari kurri and new york s tikkanen are right up there with any five man unit pittsburgh co have but i have my doubts about the home based finnish players the national team did well in the canada cup and world championships largely due to the efforts of markus ketterer the goalie or the players listed above and luck there s presumably a lot of decent players in finland that wouldn t be superstars at the highest level but still valuable role players however my guess would be that the finnish canada cup team would be a team in the nhl sweden is easier to judge because they have more players in north america their points total players is seven more than ottawa s top players combined if we estimate there are six more nhl regulars back home in sweden an all swedish team would assemble about skill points deducting some points from pittsburgh ny rangers and other teams that rely on swedish players the swedish team would finish in sixth place about as high as boston vancouver calgary and montreal on paper so the dynasty talk isn t completely unfounded here an all finnish all swedish team might have an advantage because the players would be playing at home half of the time won t have to adapt to a foreign country and a foreign language and presumably play the wide open european variant of hockey rather than have to learn the north american checking game however if free agency becomes a factor the top scandinavian players still might end up playing for large market teams after a couple of years the same way edmonton s dynasty crumbled in the late s some fringe players likely will be drafted by other nhl teams as having an exclusive talent pool might be a bit unfair after all i d settle for a compromise prohibit all european teams from signing a north american during the first two rounds but allow them to keep their top two players after this the amateur draft should be open to anyone j o o j o o j o k e r i t finland over czech in the final b r u i n p o w e r bruins over blackhawks in marcu
rec.sport.hockey	nhlpa poll stats rd uptade rd uptade here are the standings for the poll after votes points for st for nd point for th ea nhlpa game det chi ny van mtl pit wsh bos asw cgy que ase wpg la otw stl tor buf phi tby sj min atlanta to win turner cup not in the game but person vote edm htf li nj teams have no point continue to send your votes in this format until april th approximately keywords email iskander ayari loria fr ou ayari loria fr
rec.sport.hockey	truly a sad day for hockey a fine year history came to a close tonight as the minnesota north stars or norm s stars whichever you prefer lost to the red wings by a score of the stars goals were scored by mike mcphee and ulf dahlen who netted two including the final one in franchise history with less than a minute to play tonight on the air on the stars tv telecast announcer al shaver the voice of the north stars stated basically that he will not follow the team to dallas shaver when asked by his son who was doing the broadcast with him what will you do now responded first i m going to get me a new pair of slippers then i m going to sit in my easy chair and watch the world go by thank you north stars and thank you al shaver for years of minnesota memories joel alvstad
rec.sport.hockey	re new finnish star is born in article apr tnclus tele nokia fi hahietanen tnclus tele nokia fi writes i saw yesterday on tv a game between team sweden and team finland most of us might know that it was played in stockholm and the result was for the home team that s nothing very special but i was very surprised of saku koivu i must admit that he surprised me already in the finnish playoffs and now on team finland saku koivu is a light weight player if we consider his size according to my stats he is only cm and kgs and he is only but he is a real two way player skates well can score gives nice passes does even bodycheckings he is really something to watch in the wc the size isn t always everything maybe we remember harlamov and they say that saku is still growing up cm during last year saku isn t that small any longer i guess i heard he is cm tall at the moment and will still grow cm petteri kortelainen
rec.sport.hockey	re helsinki stockholm nhl expansion in article apr abo fi mlindroos finabo abo fi marcus lindroos inf writes in c h wr j polaris utu fi franti polaris utu fi writes not too low perhaps but surely not as high as that of an european nhl division the finnish team for example would contain all players currently on the national team plus a top class foreigner or two they would be in an entirely different league than tps or jokerit both of whom have perhaps a dozen players of international class if even that why settle for a minor league when you could have the best how many players of international class an average nhl team has top players just play more in smaller rinks is the quality of european hockey really poor then recent years only few north american usually good farm players players have got place in finnish league or elitserien while most have been shipped back petteri kortelainen
rec.sport.hockey	re radio stations in article ragraca vela acs oakland edu ragraca vela acs oakland edu randy a graca writes greanias texas mitre org steve greanias writes i do not have cable and on the nights the caps don t play i would like to tune in other games does anyone have a list of the radio stations which broadcast the games for the nhl teams thanks in advance i can give you a couple in detroit wjr will be broadcasting at least the first couple of games of the wings toronto series and since they broadcast at watts you may be able to pick it up after dark where you are at the pittsburgh penguins games used to be broadcast on kdka but i don t know whether they will be pre empted by baseball and moved to another station or not you can try those if the local baseball teams aren t playing at the same time anyway randy kdka has first rights to pirates games and will split probably in conflicts for penguins games which are preempted check out wdve fm that s right dve it is also watts kevin l stamber purdue university no funny sig today
rec.sport.hockey	new franchise name the new name is florida panthers the panther is an endangered species mostly located in the everglades a couple of years ago there were license plates made with panthers on them part of the revenue were to go to some protection fund the name of the new president of the panthers should be announced today as of yesterday s paper huizenga s new hockey team will take the ice at the miami arena this fall the team has a guaranteed two year lease with the arena with four one year options that could run through it s not our choice james blosser a lawyer and huizenga aid said about ruling out the arena as a long term option the nhl told us we can t stay there it s not economically feasible one reason is because the miami heat basketball team controls skybox and advertising revenue at the arena reducing the hockey team s profit potential the hockey team is attracting arena site proposals from broward dade and palm beach counties a leading site is vacant land near joe robbie stadium where residents days ago agreed to drop their opposition to a hockey arena ending an eight year battle of wills compliments of the news sun sentinel jim g fitz sanchez castranova
rec.sport.hockey	panther s president as i promised i would give you the name of the panther s president after huizenga announced the team name he announced that bill torrey is named the first president of the panthers a little bio from sun sentinel torrey the architect of four consecutive stanley cup champions as persident and general manager of the new york islanders throughout his years in the nhl bill torrey s bow ties have become as much of a signature as andre agassi s hair the panthers will introduce a uniform insignia and ticket price information in early next month in the meantime huizenga leaves the day to day operation in the hands of torrey and bob clarke the vp and gm the florida panthers was chosen as the name of south florida s nhl team to focus attention on an endangered species there are to florida panthers in the everglades national park the big cypress national preserve and other parts of southwestern florida the panther is the quickest striking of all cats torrey said hopefully that s the way we ll play on ice more bio in torrey huizenga has the first man hired by the expansion islanders in and the one most responsible for guiding the islanders to four consecutive stanley cup championships their first after only eight seasons and consecutive winning seasons as executive vice president of the california golden seals torrey watched the seals go to the play offs in only their second nhl season i guess this completes my own personal hat trick said torrey a native of montreal but a resident of bear lakes country club in palm beach jim g other accounts gorycki sol cse fau edu jimg cybernet cse fau edu i repeat myself when under stress i repeat myself when under stress i repeat myself when under stress i repeat myself when under stress i repeat adrian belew indicipline
rec.sport.hockey	pens playoff radio coverage was re radio stations in article ragraca vela acs oakland edu ragraca vela acs oakland edu randy a graca writes greanias texas mitre org steve greanias writes i can give you a couple in detroit wjr will be broadcasting at least the first couple of games of the wings toronto series and since they broadcast at watts you may be able to pick it up after dark where you are at the pittsburgh penguins games used to be broadcast on kdka but i don t know whether they will be pre empted by baseball and moved to another station or not you can try those if the local baseball teams aren t playing at the same time anyway according to this morning s post gazette the pens will be carried by kdka radio am unless the pirates are playing when the pirates play the games will be carried by wdve fm wdve will carry games starting with tonight s game in fact after this season kdka will no longer be the flagship station for the pens the penguins and kbl have struck a new deal regarding the tv and radio rights to the games it seems more than likely that wdve will be the flagship radio station next season kbl will carry games on tv with of the games to be simulcast on kdka tv the remaining games as well as some of the early round playoff games will be available by subscription tv only to receive the games you ll have to pay a one time hook up fee and then a monthly fee of dollars also under the new deal there will no longer be radio tv simulcasts there will be a tv broadcast team and a radio broadcast team no word on who the announcers will be mike lange and paul steigerwald are both under contract with kdka but their contracts expire at the end of this season kbl president bill craig said he d like to hire lange and steigerwald lori contact for the penguins lli cs cmu edu
rec.sport.hockey	wirtz is a weenie so what s the deal with bill wirtz apparently the blackhawks st louis game was a standing room only sell out as usual but the hawks reported the attendace as gee i wonder if wirtz is planning to use this as justification for continuing to keep home games off of tv what a schmuck in other tv news the penguins announced yesterday that they will have fewer broadcast tv games and will have games on some sort of subscription pay per view system yuck ralph
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl team captains in article apr iastate edu njdevils iastate edu cire y trehguad writes anna matyas am x andrew cmu edu wrote michael collingridge writes and while we are on the subject has a captain ever been traded resigned or been striped of his title during the season any other team captain trivia would be appreciated wasn t ron francis captain of the whalers when he was traded to pittsburgh and rick tochett was the captain of the flyers when traded to the pens recently and of course mike ramsey was at one time the captain in buffalo prior to being traded to pittsburgh currently the penguins have former captains and real captain lemieux playing for them they rotate the a s during the season and even the c while mario was out even troy loney has worn the c for the pens jay john w huber jr aka jay penguins stanley cup champions software engineering institute pirates nl east champions sei mastercraft the only boat for skiing
rec.sport.hockey	re thumbs up to espn in article apr wuecl wustl edu jca cec wustl edu joseph charles achkar writes it was nice to see espn show game between the wings and leafs since the cubs and astros got rained out instead of showing another baseball game they decided on the stanley cup playoffs a classy move by espn what did you leave the room each of the or so times they said that there were no other night baseball games every break they took back at the studio mentioned it followed by so we re gonna show you hockey instead my wife and i are hoping for rain at every baseball game they have a feed for tommorrow night point is be glad they showed hockey but if baseball was available anywhere else you can bet you would ve watched baseball last night pete clark
rec.sport.hockey	travesty at the joe louis detroit april in a development that shocked most knowledgable observers the detroit redwings scored no less than six goals against the best goaltender in the world en route to a win over the best team in the nhl the toronto maple leafs the leafs could not be faulted as they completely dominated the inferior detroit squad and clearly deserved to win only the biased officiating of andy van hellemond and the idiots that insisted upon throwing an octopus on the ice at every stoppage in an obvious attempt to distract the superior visiting side prevented an all out massacre of the wings by the league s best team alan p s this is sweet roger so sweet i look forward to the next installment on wednesday night i trust you do too
rec.sport.hockey	re who picks first in article apr epas toronto edu sclark epas utoronto ca susan clark writes according to the fan here in t o ottawa has won the daigle e sweepstakes they didn t mention why but san jose had more goals than the sen sens so i have a hunch this is why ottawa would pick first if i m not mistaken san jose had more wins than ottawa first tiebreaker in the nhl is always most wins alan
rec.sport.hockey	re abc coverage anna matyas am x andrew cmu edu wrote antonio pera writes i loved the abc coverage the production was excellent the appearance was excellent it had a sleek modern look this was the first time i heard thorne clement i thought they were great my only request is to leave al micheals out of this he annoys me i was skeptical before the game but was pleasantly surprised at the coverage i was particularly impressed by the close range camera coverage of work in the corners and behind the play without losing a beat getting back to the puck boy everyone has been ripping on espn s hockey coverage or is it just pittsburgher s who are thrilled with lange steigy for all of you who are unaware espn bought the air time from abc and did all the production advertising sales commentating etc and even reaped any made enjoy caleb
rec.sport.hockey	looking for boxscores i am looking for all the boxscores of any nhl team for some personal research can someone help me michel arsenault
rec.sport.hockey	re div and conf names in apr newshub ists ca dchhabra stpl ists ca deepak chhabra writes however that aside the real question is whether you like the idea of changing the names based on the reasons given for it making it easier for the casual fan or whether you like the idea of unique divisional names based on individuals who do deserve the honour imo the latter is a nice and unique touch that differs from other sports in addition i do not think that changing divisional names will have an effect on the number of people that are interested in hockey so it s a pointless exercise anyway there are several problems with the way the game is being presented to the fans i feel that geographical names would enhance regional loyalties more than names honouring personages and of course they would not appear nearly as confusing to one approaching the sport for the first time another thing that bothers me is the points system percentages as used in the other major sports are clearly more informative when i look at the nhl standings the first thing i have to do is make a quick calculation to account for games in hand which is almost always the case some will object to percentages claiming perhaps that it is an americanization of the sport but i feel that using percentages is more informative and whether it is american or not is irrelevant if the current names are inappropriate then that is a separate issue not central to the original article something to consider additionally is whether or not players like orr who contributed to the glory of the sport would have been able to do so without an organized professional league to play in in this case honouring builders of the league as opposed to builders of the sport becomes a chicken and egg type question although it was the chicken even if orr couldn t have contributed without the likes of norris you would have to agree that norris couldn t have contributed without the likes of orr and taking a poll of most fans would quickly tell you who the fans feel made the more meaningful contribution exactly true naming divisions and trophies after smythe and the bunch is the same kind of nepotism that put stein in the hall of fame i have always thought that this was nonsense dunno if the stein comparison is justifiable since it doesn t look as though his unanimous acceptance to the hall will hold up it doesn t look as if the division names are going to hold up either does it cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl team captains and of course mike ramsey was at one time the captain in buffalo prior to being traded to pittsburgh currently the penguins have former captains and real captain lemieux playing for them they rotate the a s during the season and even the c while mario was out even troy loney has worn the c for the pens i had heard perhaps incorrectly that while lemieux was out noone wore a c on their jersey the as took turns doing captain duties whatever they are scott scott marks launchpad unc edu scott marks launchpad unc edu the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the university of north carolina at chapel hill the campus office for information technology or the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu or
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl team captains anna matyas am x andrew cmu edu wrote wasn t ron francis captain of the whalers when he was traded to pittsburgh no in what still imho ranks as the all time greatest pr blunder not to mention on ice blunder the whalers ever committed gm eddie johnston and coach rick ley decided that francis was incapable as a leader and stripped him of the captain s c in december of the whole organization read ej and ley and by default owner richard gordon because he was too much of a dupe to know how much he was being blind sided by ej dumped on francis all season starting with refusing to sign him to a new contract publicly humiliating him stripping him of the c and then trading him that spring to the penguins classy guy that ej the loss of francis and too a lesser extent ulf was one of a series of decimating player moves by ej which stripped the personality and fan awareness from the team that has put them in the precarious position they are in today gratuitous good ej note he did preside over the organization when it acquired verbeek cassels sanderson poulin nylander etc he stripped the roster but he did lay a foundation sg a real live hartford whalers season ticket holder steveg cadkey com
rec.sport.hockey	the most average player in the nhl and now i interrupt your regularly scheduled news reading to bring you another message sponsored by the department of really mundane statistics i passed the final individual player stats posted here the other day through a filter to average out games goals assists points and penalty minutes for the mythical average nhl pro who played in the league this season why because it s monday and i didn t feel like writing any real code anyway after i wiped out the odd goalies in the list i came up with nhl average gp g a pts pim then i passed the list through a second time to come up with the players who had the smallest percentage difference in each of the categories marty mcinnis nyi gp g a pts pim igor kravchuk edm gp g a pts pim these two are close in games goals assists and points but are too far off in pim this leaves as the most average player in the nhl bobby carpenter was gp g a pts pim what an honor i also passed the list through with the goalies still included kravchuk and carpenter were still in the top three but rob dimaio came flying up from behind to take the title nhl average gp g a pts pim igor kravchuk edm gp g a pts pim bobby carpenter was gp g a pts pim rob dimaio tb gp g a pts pim it s all really kind of underwhelming when you think about it sg and now back to our regularly scheduled programming
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl team in milwaukee charlie betz cbetz romulus cray com writes after reading some of the reports of possible nhl moves to milwaukee or that milwaukee should have an nhl team i thought i d pass along a story i heard recently this is second hand so i don t know how true it is but i have no reason to doubt it either bradley center in milwaukee is home to the milwaukee admirals minor leauge hockey team the owner of the admirals sorry i can t remember his name either owns or at least shelled out the majority of the funds to build the bradley center lloyd pettit supposedly he was approached by the nhl about an expansion franchise but turned it down because he thought the franchise fee of million was too high like i said i don t know whether this story is true or just a rumor but if it s true don t look for an nhl team in milwaukee anytime soon the admirals aren t going to be forced out of the building and you won t see an nhl club and a minor league club in the same building especially since the nba s milwaukee bucks play there as well yes it is true that he refused to buy a franchise from the nhl for m but at the time the reason was that the established market for teams was much less than that he felt that no one would pay m for an expansion team and that he would simply wait to buy an existing franchise for less than that but the market fooled him and teams have been created for m apiece in the last three years and even the existing teams can t be moved for less than m and i doubt that he could get one for that little pettit gambled and lost now he ll have to pay more sg
rec.sport.hockey	re possible canadian wc team this is an all point team for the canadian nhlers who are not playoff bound centers geoff sanderson hartford sanderson will be on team canada but he d be out of position as a center although he was drafted as a center and played there as a rookie sanderson scored goals this season as a left wing sg
rec.sport.hockey	re wc results april gerald olchowy golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca writes podein is an interesting case because he was eligible to play in cape breton in the ahl playoffs like kovalev zubov and andersson obviously sather and pocklington are not the total scrooges everyone makes them out to be certainly in this case they ve massively outclassed paramount and the new york rangers what is the policy regarding players and the minor league playoffs versus wc i know that the rangers are holding back kovalev zubov and andersson for binghamton but i also know that the whalers wanted michael nylander to play for springfield while nylander wanted to play for sweden the whalers allowed the nhl to decide and the nhl chose the wcs how does this differ from the rangers and oilers did the whalers have to go through the league or could they have forced nylander to play in springfield sg
rec.sport.hockey	re tie breaker isles and devils rex wang wangr vccsouth its rpi edu spews forth stupidly are people here stupid or what it is a tie breaker of cause they have to have the same record how can people be sooooo stuppid to put win as first in the list for tie breaker if it is a tie breaker how can there be different record man i thought people in this net are good with hockey i might not be great in math but tell me how can two teams ahve the same points with different record man retard can t believe people actually put win as first in a tie breaker please please please tell me that you don t actually attend rensselaer and that you just work for its or that this was tounge in cheek does this mean that i should be cutting off my alumni contributions or increasing them sg
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl team captains in article apr samba oit unc edu scott marks launchpad unc edu scott marks writes and of course mike ramsey was at one time the captain in buffalo prior to being traded to pittsburgh currently the penguins have former captains and real captain lemieux playing for them they rotate the a s during the season and even the c while mario was out even troy loney has worn the c for the pens i think that mike foligno was the captain of the sabres when he got traded to the leafs also wasn t rick vaive the captain of the leafs when he got traded to chicago with steve thomas for ed olcyzk and someone speaking of the leafs i believe that darryl sittler was their captain he d torn the c off his jersey but i think he re claimed the captaincy later on when he was traded to the flyers oh yeah of course gretzky was the captain of the oilers before he was traded wasn t he gary
rec.sport.hockey	nhl summary parse results for games played mon april toronto detroit first period detroit yzerman gallant ciccarelli toronto cullen clark gill second period detroit sheppard probert coffey pp detroit burr racine sh detroit chiasson coffey pp detroit howe yzerman drake toronto gilmour borschevsky ellett pp third period detroit racine primeau drake toronto lefebvre cullen pearson detroit power play special goals pp sh total scorer g a pts burr chiasson ciccarelli coffey drake gallant howe primeau probert racine sheppard yzerman toronto power play scorer g a pts borschevsky clark cullen ellett gill gilmour lefebvre pearson winnipeg vancouver first period vancouver adams linden bure pp vancouver craven bure murzyn winnipeg steen shannon housley pp second period no scoring third period winnipeg king barnes vancouver linden courtnall mclean vancouver ronning courtnall vancouver power play scorer g a pts adams bure courtnall craven linden mclean murzyn ronning winnipeg power play scorer g a pts barnes housley king shannon steen
rec.sport.hockey	re travesty at the joe louis in article apr mtroyal ab ca caldwell mtroyal ab ca writes detroit april in a development that shocked most knowledgable observers the detroit redwings scored no less than six goals against the best goaltender in the world en route to a win over the best team in the nhl the toronto maple leafs not only that but if i m not mistaken detroit scored goals on their first five shots on net looks like toronto s cream cheese run continues or is that swiss cheese after watching potvin i m leaning towards the latter bill
rec.sport.hockey	re tie breaker isles and devils in article lrw f rpi edu wangr rpi edu writes are people here stupid or what it is a tie breaker of cause they have to have the same record how can people be sooooo stuppid to put win as first in the list for tie breaker if it is a tie breaker how can there be different record man i thought people in this net are good with hockey i might not be great in math but tell me how can two teams ahve the same points with different record man retard can t believe people actually put win as first in a tie breaker i didn t see any smilies in this message so w t l pts team a team b there you go two teams that tie in points without identical records
rec.sport.hockey	request for video in pittsburgh area there was apparently a minute special here on the penguins season on abc wtae channel immediately preceding the opening game against the devils on sunday i only turned it on in time to watch the credits if anyone taped it and is willing to let me borrow it to dub it i would appreciate it i would be willing to come pick it up and i ll return it the next day and buy you a beer please respond via e mail thanks a lot oh yeah was it any good billy
rec.sport.hockey	re bay area media wings leafs coverage in article dreier apr durban berkeley edu dreier durban berkeley edu roland dreier writes the san francisco bay area media is reporting tonight that the detroit red wings beat the toronto maple leafs can someone who is not part of the media conspiracy against the leafs tell me how the game really went i am expecting a win for the leafs shutout for potvin hat trick for andreychuk and a goal and assists for gilmour if the leafs really lost how many penalties did whichever biased ref was at the game have to call against the leafs to let the red wings win thank you very much roland dreier dreier math berkeley edu sorry to disappoint you but the red wings earned the victory easily i watched most of the game on espn as soon as i realized that they were televising the game which was at the beginning of the second the maple leafs were flat very flat meanwhile the red wings were skating very freely and dictating the pace of the game i didn t detect any bad penalty calls van hellemond did his usual good job toronto looked like how i expected them to for their first playoff game in a few years nervous for the leafs sake i hope they can rid themselves of the butterflies for game if game is indicative of the series it s gonna go quick tom galvin galvint taurus cs nps navy mil
rec.sport.hockey	re schedule in article netnews upenn edu kkeller mail sas upenn edu keith keller writes in article qup linnotb master cs rose hulman edu swartzjh rosevc rose hulman edu writes does anyone have the games espn will be airing this week hopefully the detroit toronto game tongiht i though abc did a decent job by getting some f king no hockey games televised nationally tonight what the hell is this why the hell is espn showing some stupid baseball game when baseball is not even three weeks into the season and hockey is in the playoffs no wait i know the answer but still it really pisses me off to no end they better start putting some more f cking games on or they will never make any money off of the deal that brought hockey back to espn aargh not that i d watch anyway but hockey needs all the publicity it can get keith keller let s go rangers let s go quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs a cow is not a vegetarian dish keith keller you obviously don t understand how tv scheduling works espn had prior contracts to baseball to show monday night games and had contracted all the other bs shows well in advance the nhl tv deal was very late in the scheduling process you normally have to do this one plus year out the nhl package was finished two weeks before the season started espn has shown tremendous commitment to the nhl by squeezing in extra telecasts when it could like the last minnesota game and putting stanley cup games as backup to their baseball telecasts which by favorable circumstances they could pull off last night but the bottom line is that espn cannot break contracts at will they must honor the previous deals they made does have something to do with it especially if you risk a lawsuit for breach of contract with baseball so relax i m happy i don t get sportschannel anyway tom galvin galvint taurus cs nps navy mil
rec.sport.hockey	west coast nhl playoff games us easterners who have newspapers with editors unsympathetic to playoff pools often don t get summaries from west coast games since they finish too late at night for the morning edition i and i m sure others too would greatly appreciate it if scoring summaries of west coast playoff games could be posted to this group right away basically all we need are goal scorers and assists don t bother with times penalties shots etc this would make a lot of pool obsessed people very happy i guess with the senators out golfing now the local papers have lost interest thanks kd
rec.sport.hockey	nhl playoff results for games played nhl playoff results for conference semi finals best of seven patrick adams norris smythe nj buf leads stl leads win pit leads bos chi van leads nyi mon tor la leads was leads que leads det leads cal toronto maple leafs detroit red wings leads series st period det yzerman gallant ciccarelli tor cullen clark gill nd period det sheppard probert coffey pp det burr racine sh det chiasson coffey pp det howe yzerman drake tor gilmour borschevsky ellett pp rd period det racine primeau drake tor lefebvre cullen pearson powerplay opportunities maple leafs of red wings of shots on goal maple leafs red wings toronto maple leafs potvin shots saves detroit red wings cheveldae shots saves att winnipeg jets vancouver canucks leads series st period van adams linden bure pp van craven bure murzyn win steen shannon housley pp nd period none rd period win king barnes van linden courtnall mclean van ronning courtnall powerplay opportunities jets of canucks of shots on goal jets canucks winnipeg jets essensa shots saves vancouver canucks mclean shots saves att spike
rec.sport.hockey	series game kings flames los angeles kings notes and game reports kings calgary flames the third place kings opened the stanley cup playoffs in calgary against the second place flames and came out with an impressive victory in front of a non sellout crowd of at the saddledome in calgary symthe division playoff hockey this was both teams seemed a bit tense in the opening period though the kings scored off the opening face off the kings got into the flow of the game much earlier than the flames as they played out standing team defense it took the flames of the first period to record their first shot on goal the kings ranked th of the playoff teams on penalty killing shut down the flames the flames went on the power play and could record only shot on goal in those opportunities the kings had their problems on the power play yet they did manager to score goals in tries the kings forwards back checked while the defense stood the flames up at the blue line allowing the kings to take took the home ice advantage away from the flames rob blake missed the game due to the lower back contusion but is ex pected to be in the lineup on wednesday wayne gretzky suffered a charlie horse in his right leg he took a few shifts in the second period before retiring to the dressing room for the rest of the game interviewed on the radio this morning he stated that he was fine and would be in the lineup on wednesday st period the kings got things started right off the opening face off gretzky won the draw with the puck going to sydor he crossed center ice and slapped the puck into the flames zone and behind the net the puck carried around to the far side where robitaille wacked at it and the rebound bounced to sandstrom he put the puck behind the flames net where gretzky picked it up gretzky set up in his office moved to the near side and passed into the near circle where sydor had moved in sydor who got the puck between the face off dot and the hash mark shot off the pass beating vernon low and between the legs millen and fleury went off at skrudland went off at but the kings failed to convert carson went off at and the flames failed to convert dahlquist went off at and dahl went off at giving the kings a second on which they failed to convert the kings recorded goal posts in the period nd period the kings opened with a on carried over from the st period which they failed to convert on with seconds left in the on vernon put a bouncing puck into the stands and received a delay of game calgary evened the score on the ensuing kings power play kurri with the puck in the neutral zone tried to put the puck into the flames zone but it hit the stick of fleury and bounced to suter at the flames blue line suter skated down the near wing and into the kings zone he faked a shot at the circle and skated around kurri as he cut thorugh the crease he got hrudey to go with him and he put the puck behind hrudey on his stick side for a short hander the kings reclaimed the lead seconds later on the same power play shuchuk in the far circle passed to sydor at the top of the slot and headed for the net sydors shot hit shuchuk in the back and dropped into the low slot where kings shuchuk and granato were being checked by flames carson came from the far corner picked up the loose puck and snapped a wrist shot between the legs of vernon from feet above the crease the kings widened their lead just seconds later rychel was checked off the puck at the flames blue line taylor picked up the puck and sent a pass cross the slot to huddy huddy shot off the pass from the near face off dot beating a diving vernon on the glove side later the kings had a goal lead mcsorley took a shot form the near point that hit a flame and deflected towards the boards marty got his own rebound skated to the bottom of the circle and sent a pass into the low slot that hit dahlquist on the leg and deflected past the stick of vernon skrudland went off at but the kings could not convert sydor went off at and watters went off at giving the flames a second but they failed to convert mcsorley went off at and the flames had consecutive power plays but the flames killed it themselves when suter went off for high sticking at sandstrom went off at to close out the period the kings hit goal post in the period rd period the kings used the phrase initiate not retaliate and it was very evident here in the rd period as the kings continued to pound the body and the flames continued to take bad penalties to take themselves out of the game the kings extended their lead to goals at the mark the kings shot the puck into the near corner of the flames zone vernon went behind the net to cut off the puck but he could not control it donnelly who was behind him wacked at the puck sending it into the low slot as vernon slid back in to the crease granato got a shot that hit a flame and bounced to the left of the net where millen fired the rebound behind vernon sydor went off at nieuwendyk went off at as the teams skated on otto skating down the far side stepped around mcsorley cut to the net and passed to dahlquist in the low slot dahlquist cut through the top of the crease and put the puck in under a diving hrudey carson and rychel came in on a when carson passed across to rychel fleury tripped rychel with no call the puck got shoveled into the far corner where fleury knocked rychel down and checked him from behind into the boards drawing a minute major and a game misconduct at the mark unfortunately the kings squandered the minute power play when granato at and watters at took penalties the flames closed to within at the mark macinnis at the near point passed to yawney at the far point he took a few strides towards the net wound up and drove a shot off the near post and in over the glove of hrudey the play started on another faceoff that the kings lost timeout la macinnis took a penalty at and the kings converted on the power play to seal the victory sandstrom skating down the far wing in the flames zone cut towards the back of the net just as he crossed the goal line he passed the puck into the low slot on the far side to carson who shot off the pass beating vernon on the ice stick side at the mark skrudland went off for slashing and stern went crazy as he went after shuchuk stern wound up with a double minor for roughing a single minor for cross checking and a minute misconduct and he took the flames right out of the game on the plus side the kings for the most part played very disciplined hockey as they let calgary retaliate the kings played good team defense and excellent penalty killing on the minus side the kings lost almost every face off this must improve or the flames will surely get that power play back on track notes the kings recalled guy leveque brandy semchuk and jim thomson from phoenix wayne gretzkys st period assist was his th career playoff point the kings entered the game th in the league in shots per game against giving the opposing team an average of shots per game flames goaltender mike vernon entered the game with a record in afternoon games the flames entered the game with a success rate on the power play over their last games the teams were against each other in the regular season playoffs campbell conference smythe division la cal la leads win van norris division stl chi stl leads tor det wales conference adams division buf bos ot buf leads mon que ot que leads patrick division nj pit pit leads nyi was was leads records vs smythe norris patrck adams overall home road total box score calgary los angeles st period la sydor gretzky sandstrom la millen high sticking cal fleury high sticking cal skrudland interference la carson tripping cal dahlquist holding stick cal dahl roughing nd period cal verson delay of game served by ashton cal suter fleury sh la carson shuchuk sydor pp la huddy taylor rychel la mcsorley unassisted cal skrudland elbowing la sydor tripping la watters hooking la mcsorley holding cal suter high sticking la sandstrom hooking rd period la millen granato donnelly la sydor hooking cal nieuwendyk tripping cal dahlquist otto cal fleury major boarding game misconduct la granato tripping la watters interference cal yawney macinnis reichel cal macinnis roughing la carson sandstrom robitaille pp la hardy holding cal skrudland slashing cal stern double roughing cross checking min misconduct overtime none shots los angeles calgary power play conversions for of for the year of against of for the year of goalies los angeles hrudey calgary vernon attendance scratches rob blake back contusion guy leveque numbers lonnie loach numbers marc potvin numbers brandy semchuk numbers robb stauber numbers brent thompson numbers jim thomson numbers lines forwards robitaille gretzky sandstrom donnelly millen kurri rychel conacher taylor granato carson shuchuk lines defense huddy sydor watters zhitnik hardy mcsorley denotes starting lineup next game wednesday april calgary flames pm pacific time on prime ticket stan willis willis empire dnet hac com net contact l a kings talk with the l a kings mailing list kings cs stanford edu to subscribe or unsubscribe kings request cs stanford edu
rec.sport.hockey	murray as gm was wings will win in article apr sol uvic ca gballent hudson uvic ca writes in article vela acs oakland edu ragraca vela acs oakland edu randy a graca writes are predicting although i think bryan murray is probably the best gm i have ever seen in hockey how do you figure that when bryan murray took over the wings they were a pretty good team that was contending for the stanley cup but looked unlikely to win it now they are a pretty good team that is contending for the stanley cup but looks unlikely to win it a truly great gm would have been able to make the moves to push the team to the upper echelon of the nhl and maybe win the stanley cup a good gm like murray can i think murray has done a great job he s picked up ciccarelli sheppard ysebaert howe coffey and riendeau plus some depth players without giving up anything the wings needed or any of his top prospects all of this in three years has anyone done better the year before he took over the wings didn t even make the playoffs there was about a year and a half during demers stint that the wings did ok but that was due to demers motavational skills and clutch and grab style they didn t have much talent gerald murray wasn t responsible for primeau although i m not ready to admit that s a horrible pick they hired him after the draft which has never made sense to me his first pick was lapointe ron and one of my major goals is to leave the next president a new set of things to worry about i m getting bored reading the same problems in the paper decade after decade i want people to have to deal with new problems president bill clinton
rec.sport.hockey	re wings will win in article ragraca vela acs oakland edu ragraca vela acs oakland edu randy a graca writes i also think that they will have a hard time with pittsburgh if they face them in the finals which is what all the detroit sportswriters are predicting although i think bryan murray is probably the best gm i have ever seen in hockey i m not as impressed with his abilities as a bench coach or in general as a motivator with the amount of talent he has on this team he should have blown away everyone in the norris there is not another team in the norris maybe even in the campbell conference that can hold a candle to detroit on paper in terms of pure talent but some guys have not been pulling their weight at times this year scotty bowman on the other hand who has won i think correct me if i m wrong nine stanley cups is an outstanding coach and i think he could outcoach murray if they faced each other bryan murray has done very little as gm yzerman fedorov cheveldae chaisson the whole russian strategy was a product of the previous gm murray has made a couple of decent trades that s about it that would hardly rank him as the best gm wasn t primeau murray s first decision as gm gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re wc results april in article apr iscnvx lmsc lockheed com spiegel sgi msd lmsc lockheed com mark spiegel writes according to the sj murky news the team usa roster is names and teams played for in listed goalies forwards tony amonte new york rangers ted drury harvard univ rob gaudreau san jose sharks craig johnson univ of minnesota jeff lazaro ottawa senators mike modano minnesota north stars ed olczyk new york rangers derek plante univ of minnesota duluth shion podein edmonton oilers david sacco boston university darren turcotte new york rangers doug weight edmonton oilers it looks like the edmonton oilers just decided to take a european vacation this spring ranford tugnutt benning manson smith buchberger and corson are playing for canada podein and weight are playing for the us is kravchuk playing for the russians i know he had nagging injuries late in the season podein is an interesting case because he was eligible to play in cape breton in the ahl playoffs like kovalev zubov and andersson obviously sather and pocklington are not the total scrooges everyone makes them out to be certainly in this case they ve massively outclassed paramount and the new york rangers gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl team captains michael collingridge writes and while we are on the subject has a captain ever been traded resigned or been striped of his title during the season any other team captain trivia would be appreciated wasn t ron francis captain of the whalers when he was traded to pittsburgh mom rick tocchet was captain of the flyers for several years before he was traded to the pens john santore we break the surface tension with our wild kinetic dreams rush grand designs go philadelphia flyers john santore jsbh andrew cmu edu rush yes king crimson emerson lake and palmer marillion genesis w gabriel
rec.sport.hockey	re sharks kingston fired in article apr leland stanford edu terry garfield stanford edu terry wong writes i think that jack ferreira s firing eventually led to kingston s firing you mention consistency of vision i think the sharks lost that with the loss of ferreira there has never been a headed g m that has ever worked you need one person making the personnel decisions at the top not management by committee the conventional wisdom from around the league is that ferreira would have made the moves that would have fielded a better product on the ice how exactly would ferreira accomplished this the three headed gm ship has taken a lot of heat but nobody s explained how things would have been any different had ferreira still been there would ferreira have made more trades who would have he had traded would he have made fewer trades who should not have been traded sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.hockey	re wings will win in article vela acs oakland edu ragraca vela acs oakland edu randy a graca writes gballent hudson uvic ca greg ballentine writes in article vela acs oakland edu ragraca vela acs oakland edu randy a graca writes i also think that they will have a hard time with pittsburgh if they face them in the finals which is what all the detroit sportswriters are predicting although i think bryan murray is probably the best gm i have ever seen in hockey how do you figure that when bryan murray took over the wings they were a pretty good team that was contending for the stanley cup but looked unlikely to win it now they are a pretty good team that is contending for the stanley cup but looks unlikely to win it a truly great gm would have been able to make the moves to push the team to the upper echelon of the nhl and maybe win the stanley cup a good gm like murray can maintain the team s success but can t push them to the next level when jacques demers brought the wings to the conference finals twice a few years back he had everyone on the team giving percent but he had very little talent he had yzerman bob probert who had drinking problems at the time and a couple of decent goaltenders in hanlon and stefan who got hot that s about it can you name one player on those earlier teams who even deserved to be in the all star game much less actually got there other than yzerman and probert like petr klima give me a break when they faced edmonton in both of those conference finals as hard as they played it was clear they faced a team that simply had superior talent to the wings that s why they could not get to the finals also at that time the norris division was still the weakest division in hockey and getting past chicago and toronto was not as impressive as it is today murray has brought scoring talent to the wings that they did not have a few years ago when devellano was gm and demers was coach to name a few ysebaert kozlov and paul coffey who has made a definite positive impact on the power play especially murray has built one of the most talented teams in hockey at the present with the possible exception of the pittsburgh penguins the wings have at least five goal scorers that i can think of and a couple of defenseman with over games worth of playoff experience murray s one failing is that unlike the other gm s you mentioned who are definitely also good don t get me wrong he has not found for himself a strong coach to motivate the team to go out and give percent for the full minutes every night like they did the last time they made a cup run when a team wins or loses it s a reflection of the gm and the coach which was the point of my original post if the team outmatches their opponent in terms of talent but loses anyway which has been the case this year when the wings have struggled that indicates that the gm has done his job in building up the team but the coach has failed to motivate them if as in the case of the last run the wings made in the playoffs before murray came they gave opponents a hard time who should have beaten them easily that indicates good coaching making up for a lack of talent all of this is fine i never said that murray was a bad gm i merely said that he isn t the best gm in hockey or even a contender for that honor if murray is as great as you claim the wings would have won the stanley cup by now probably more than once if he was as great a gm as you claim and he was as poor a coach as you claim he would have been intelligent enough to hire the coach to push the team to the next level of success but murray is an average unspectacular nhl coach and a pretty good gm so none of this is true anyway gregmeister
rec.sport.hockey	re ron francis matthew rush writes is there an award for best back up behind a hockey great underneath all the hype about lemieux stevens jagr ulf etc ron francis has quietly put together a point season goals and assists in games that was probably the best acquisition the penguins have made since getting lemieux apologies to rick tocchet who has had a hell of a year himself the pens got just the right person at just the right time when they got francis before the playoffs two years ago to back up mario who was the second line center before they got francis i remember randy gilhen who really plays tough an ace in the face off circle but nobody with all the skills francis has scoring passing winning face offs and putting into every game every night just wanted to glow a little i know what you mean i glow everytime ronnie s out on the ice in fact one of the neatest things about seeing the pens in person is that i can key in on him instead of watching what i d probably be seeing on tv he does so many subtle things behind the play he said in an interview recently that when he was a kid his dad stressed the importance of playing two way hockey that you have to learn how to play defense as well as offense and he obviously took that advice to heart he was a breath of fresh air when he arrived in pittsburgh to the team whose forwards for the most part couldn t and wouldn t play a lick of defense it s really difficult to assess what the key trades were that brought all of this success to the pens you mention rick tocchet and he has certainly helped and even ol kjell has been steady but looking at this team you could almost take any one of them out of the line up permanently and replace them with an extremely mediocre player and it wouldn t matter if i had to pick the top three acquisitions in recent years they would be tom barrasso ron francis larry murphy i d love to put francis first but i do think the only thing that could really damage the pens right now would be to lose barrasso mom
rec.sport.hockey	re don cherry coach s corner summary april on apr in don cherry coach s corner user allan sullivan cs ualber writes next a clip was shown from an earlier episode in which don was proclaiming doug gilmour to be the best player not only in the nhl but in the world what about players like lemieux don said that gilmour was the best player not designated point getter its not like baseball where you have a designatted hitter who can score runs but can t play defense gilmour is a good two way player this clip was shown on local news in pittsburgh last night kdka complete with animated sarcasm by the sportscaster it s the second time cherry has been shown on local pittsburgh news in the last couple of weeks both times he was blasting lemieux jim murawski sr software engineer office administrative computing and fax information services jjm andrew cmu edu carnegie mellon university office ucc forbes avenue pittsburgh pa le mieux le magnifique soixante six claude non there are days until clinton clinocchio leaves office too many
rec.sport.hockey	re don cherry coach s corner summary april in article allan swanlake allan cs ualberta ca allan sullivan writes next a clip was shown from an earlier episode in which don was proclaiming doug gilmour to be the best player not only in the nhl but in the world what about players like lemieux don said that gilmour was the best player not designated point getter its not like baseball where you have a designatted hitter who can score runs but can t play defense gilmour is a good two way player what can you expect from a buffoon who said that the pens should have drafted kirk muller instead of mario lemieux perhaps once upon a time don cherry had some insight into the game of hockey but he s really degenerated into a parody of himself sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.hockey	re nords habs in o t we was robbed in article apr vm mcgill ca jbe jbe musicb mcgill ca writes aargh paul stewart is the worst and most biased ref presently in the nhl he called a total of penalties on the habs and one on the nordiques the nords penalty came in o t stewart being an ex nordique himself was looking to call penalties on the habs while letting the nords get away with murder we was robbed no patrick roy is the reason the game was lost and ron hextall is the reason quebec won everybody said it would come down to goaltending that goaltending was the key etc etc well the key doesn t quite fit if you re montreal the dionne penalty was kind of a cheesy call but let s face it he literally left his feet to throw an elbow blaming stewart is just an excuse to avoid facing the fact that roy allowed what was one of the worst goals he could possibly allow he even saw the whole shot dammit besides stewart evened things up a bit by calling a quebec penalty in ot montreal played a solid game although they still don t know how to clear traffic in front of the net the loss of schneider will hurt even more normally i would say that any team that blows a goal lead with less than five let alone two minutes to go in regulation time in a playoff game especially needs to be smacked upside their collective heads but i don t think this was a team loss although keane should have been able to clear the zone just prior to the first quebec goal roy is paid big money to play he looked like a player in an industrial league on sakic s shot demers should start racicot in the next game if not that he should let the damn team read the papers for the next day or two and maybe this article if possible patrick roy collapsed after letting in the tieing goal he was shaky and on his knees for the rest of the night the winning goal shouldn t have gone in i didn t think the wrap around was as bad as the second goal i also didn t think scott young should have gotten around the defender can t remember who in the first place but you are correct it shouldn t have gone in regardless oh well at least the bruins lost in o t also ha ha yep moog looked bad on mogilny s goal with five seconds left in the second imo how about neely though holy shit what a player speaking of great players man oh man can quebec skate i haven t seen a team so potent on the rush in a long time watching them break out of their zone especially sundin is a treat to watch they remind me of the red army but i still hate the team on the rest of the games didn t st louis winning goal come on a powerplay penalties will cost chicago dearly especially against detroit same goes for calgary very very undisciplined when marty mcsorely is waving guys to the bench to avoid fights you know something s up new jersey was overmatched terreri s heroics notwithstanding mario is unbelievable and jagr for some reason shows up in the playoffs but i hate that team anyway dchhabra stpl ists ca pissed off habs fan
rec.sport.hockey	re atlanta hockey hell in article fovj i wb miumht andrew cmu edu mamatha devineni ratnam mr andrew cmu edu writes well it s not that bad but i am still pretty pissed of at the local abc coverage they cut off the first half hour of coverage by playing stuff deleted ok here s the solution to your problem move to canada yesterday i was able to watch four games the nj pitt at on abc la cal at cbc buff bos at tsn and fox and mon que at cbc i think that if each series goes its max i could be watching hockey playoffs for some odd consecutive nights i haven t counted so that s a pure guess i have two tv s in my house and i set them up side by side to watch mon que and keep an eye on bos buff at the same time i did the same for the two afternoon games btw those abc commentaters were great i was quite impressed they seemed to know that their audience wasn t likely to be well schooled in hockey lore and they did an excellent job they were quite impartial also imo dchhabra stpl ists ca not suffering from a shortage of hockey here
rec.sport.hockey	re div and conf names in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes evan pritchard writes i think that you are incorrect roger patrick smythe and adams all played or coached in the league before becoming front office types hence they did help build the league although they were not great players themselves punch imlach s contributions as a coach and gm were far greater than those of the above combined should we name a division or trophy after him owner vs player contributions deleted are we going to honour those who contributed to the league s evolution or are we going to honour those who contributed to the glory of the sport itself stuff deleted the money issue is irrelevant to the point that we would agree on and that is it is the players that are what make the game great and not the people who put them on the ice as i recall the author of the original article that started the thread claimed that he disliked the changing of the names for a variety of reasons roger on one front you flamed him rather severely on the grounds that his was a jingoistic rant but you also supported the name changing on the grounds that the current names are inappropriate because of the individuals they represent fwiw i do not think the flaming was warranted nor do i think you enhanced what credibility you have with it at all just an observation however that aside the real question is whether you like the idea of changing the names based on the reasons given for it making it easier for the casual fan or whether you like the idea of unique divisional names based on individuals who do deserve the honour imo the latter is a nice and unique touch that differs from other sports in addition i do not think that changing divisional names will have an effect on the number of people that are interested in hockey so it s a pointless exercise anyway if the current names are inappropriate then that is a separate issue not central to the original article something to consider additionally is whether or not players like orr who contributed to the glory of the sport would have been able to do so without an organized professional league to play in in this case honouring builders of the league as opposed to builders of the sport becomes a chicken and egg type question although it was the chicken exactly true naming divisions and trophies after smythe and the bunch is the same kind of nepotism that put stein in the hall of fame i have always thought that this was nonsense dunno if the stein comparison is justifiable since it doesn t look as though his unanimous acceptance to the hall will hold up dchhabra stpl ists ca
rec.sport.hockey	re hawks vs leafs lastnight in article apr alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca gerald olchowy writes on all replays joe murphy s goal shouldn t have counted the game would have ended in tie i thought the red light went on thus in the review the presumption would be to find conclusive evidence that the puck did not go in the net from the replays i say even from the rear the evidence wasn t conclusive that the puck was in or out in my opinion i was under the impression that the objective is to find conclusive evidence that the puck did cross the line and the replays i saw showed fairly conclusively that the puck did not cross the goal line at any time anyway somebody screwed up dchhabra stpl ists ca
rec.sport.hockey	re thumbs up to espn in article apr wuecl wustl edu jca cec wustl edu joseph charles achkar writes it was nice to see espn show game between the wings and leafs since the cubs and astros got rained out instead of showing another baseball game they decided on the stanley cup playoffs a classy move by espn it was good to see the wings play but lets not give espn too much credit there weren t any other late baseball games on so they didn t have another option eric sebastian go pens
rec.sport.hockey	re wings take game one in qvos r cl msu vergolin euler lbs msu edu david vergolini writes the detroit red wings put a lot of doubter on ice tonight with a washing of the toronto maple leafs all you toronto fans have now seen the power of the mighty red wing offense toronto s defense in no match for the wing offense as for the defense probert kennedey and primeau came out hitting hard toronto players were being thrown left and right not even wendell clark was tough enough for the wings tough guys the wings only gave up three goals a low total for what they say is a mediocre defense all you leaf fans better speak up now you team will probable have its season ended soon wings fans keep up the support there s quite a few wings fans lurking about here they just tend to be low key and thoughtful rather than woofers i suppose every family must have a roger clinton though but remember to paraphrase one of my favorite star trek lines if we adopt the ways of the leaf fans we are as bad as the leaf fans ron and one of my major goals is to leave the next president a new set of things to worry about i m getting bored reading the same problems in the paper decade after decade i want people to have to deal with new problems president bill clinton
rec.sport.hockey	re wings will win golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca gerald olchowy writes bryan murray has done very little as gm yzerman fedorov cheveldae chaisson the whole russian strategy was a product of the previous gm murray has made a couple of decent trades that s about it that would hardly rank him as the best gm wasn t primeau murray s first decision as gm gerald there are many teams in the nhl who have taken a liking to russian players the whole russian strategy is not specific to detroit or to devellano who was gm before murray what the previous gm also did was to trade away several players who have gone on to do well with other teams most notably in my memory murray craven who had a few very good years with philly after leaving here also it s not the volume of trades that will necessarily improve a team but the quality of them trading adam oates for bernie federko was just plain stupid even if federko used to be a great player at one time most of murray s trades have worked significantly to the wings advantage with those that didn t being soured mainly by injury to the players involved such as troy crowder who suffered back problems from which he never really recovered put scotty bowman pat burns or any of the other better coaches in the league behind the bench of this detroit team and they could beat anybody randy
rec.sport.hockey	re abc coverage in article cfoy mw uh jndv andrew cmu edu anna matyas am x andrew cmu edu writes thorne is good and i ve always been a fan of clement but i miss mike emrick my boyfriend who is not a hockey fan even looked up at one point and said these guys are pretty good announcers this is the same guy who said that rick tocchet looks like charles bronson did your boyfriend comment on the fact that clement looks like a walking ad for brillo pad hair replacement therapy the guy s just a stuffed shirt who thinks he s the greatest hockey analyst since howie meeker for gosh sakes i ll take schoenie any day george george ferguson arpa ferguson cs rochester edu dept of computer science uucp rutgers rochester ferguson university of rochester vox rochester ny fax
rec.sport.hockey	re thumbs up to espn in article apr wuecl wustl edu jca cec wustl edu joseph charles achkar writes it was nice to see espn show game between the wings and leafs since the cubs and astros got rained out instead of showing another baseball game they decided on the stanley cup playoffs a classy move by espn they tried their best not to show it believe me i m surprised they couldn t find a sprint car race mini cars through pigpens indeed on short notice george george ferguson arpa ferguson cs rochester edu dept of computer science uucp rutgers rochester ferguson university of rochester vox rochester ny fax
rec.sport.hockey	re abc coverage in article blue cis pitt edu ccohen pitt edu caleb n cohen writes boy everyone has been ripping on espn s hockey coverage or is it just pittsburgher s who are thrilled with lange steigy for all of you who are unaware espn bought the air time from abc and did all the production advertising sales commentating etc and even reaped any made in the interests of saving badnwidth during this heated time of the year viz the early flurry of retard comments coming from a certain state whose name starts with p and ends with a why don t you tell us something we don t already know george george ferguson arpa ferguson cs rochester edu dept of computer science uucp rutgers rochester ferguson university of rochester vox rochester ny fax
rec.sport.hockey	re thumbs up to espn in article apr wuecl wustl edu jca cec wustl edu joseph charles achkar writes it was nice to see espn show game between the wings and leafs since the cubs and astros got rained out instead of showing another baseball game they decided on the stanley cup playoffs a classy move by espn the only reason espn showed that hockey came was because there was no other baseball game scheduled for the evening randy r turgeo oz plymouth edu a l l e z l e s b l u e s joe ashkar contact for the blues saint louis jca cec wustl edu blues
rec.sport.hockey	re abc coverage ccohen pitt edu caleb n cohen writes boy everyone has been ripping on espn s hockey coverage or is it just pittsburgher s who are thrilled with lange steigy for all of you who are unaware espn bought the air time from abc and did all the production advertising sales commentating etc and even reaped any made no caleb it s not the quality of espn that i have a problem with it is superb whereas it did not evolve beyond the point where espn left off when hockey went to sc this is excepting sc s use of feeds from cbc it s the amount of hockey they re showing or lack of it that we re complaining about they had rights to two ot s that could ve been shown on sunday night after baseball and they had pickup trucks racing through oversized pigpens followed by super home movies of old car races yes i was checking in desperation for canucks jets last night after sportscenter gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl team captains colling ann arbor applicon slb com michael collingridge writes and while we are on the subject has a captain ever been traded resigned or been striped of his title during the season any other team captain trivia would be appreciated luc robitaille was captain of the kings the first third of the season until the great one came back from his disc injury it was kind of awkward but melrose appointed anointed tgo as captain immediately upon his return after which he did not score a goal for something like games i think luc should have remained captain all season dvb
rec.sport.hockey	re abc coverage in article cfoy mw uh jndv andrew cmu edu am x andrew cmu edu anna matyas writes i was skeptical before the game but was pleasantly surprised at the coverage i was particularly impressed by the close range camera coverage of work in the corners and behind the play without losing a beat getting back to the puck thorne is good and i ve always been a fan of clement but i miss mike emrick my boyfriend who is not a hockey fan even looked up at one point and said these guys are pretty good announcers this is the same guy who said that rick tocchet looks like charles bronson mom i have one complaint for the cameramen doing the jersey pitt series show the shots not the hits on more than one occassion the camera zoomed in on a check along the boards while the puck was in the slot they panned back to show the rebound maybe mom s camera people were a little more experienced joseph stiehm
rec.sport.hockey	re ron francis not to mention mr francis is an incredibly nice person over christmas break a friend of mine had a little xmas gathering the two of us drove to ron s house while i stayed in the car out of shyness my friend went to the door and rang the bell ron answered and my friend introduced himself he then proceeded to invite francis to the party ron declined because he had to watch his daughter he then reached out and shook my friend s hand i know this isn t r s b but i don t think barry bonds would be this polite in this situation george
rec.sport.hockey	sharks review part left wings apparently part defensemen numbered through was lost when i posted it to make things worse i lost my own copy i have asked on the sharks mailing list on which it did get out to see if someone can mail me a copy back if someone responds i will repost it when i get it otherwise i will re write it in a day or two and post it sorry about that larry depalma season rd acquired free agent from minnesota grade i c d no netter fan watching the sharks including me knows where depalma was at the end of the season the sharks appeared to still have his rights but he wasn t in san jose he wasn t in kansas city and his name hasn t appeared on the waiver wire and that kind of invisibility was prevalent for the most part for depalma after being called up october against the tampa bay lightning depalma had an excellent week scoring points in games while playing good defense unfortunately the year old depalma then disappeared the rest of the way getting just more points in more games and generally looked lethargic and uninterested on both ends of the ice he then was sent down to kansas city walked out from there and was suspended and later reinstated when it was revealed that he was injured he then promptly disappeared from the watching eyes of shark bytes as the mailing list is now known to sharks officials faithful and neither the sharks nor we miss him johan garpenlov season rd acquired trade with detroit for d bob mcgill and th round pick in entry draft from vancouver grade a a after an early slump garpenlov was nothing short of inspirational the rest of the way finishing with points in games second highest total on the team as he clicked well with team mvp kelly kisio and right wing rob gaudreau kisio got most of the credit but garpenlov finishing second in the mvp voting clearly demonstrated his playmaking and scoring skills as he was seen making excellent centering passes as well as finishing passes to him by putting the puck past opposing goaltenders getting a club high power play goals contrary to his previous rep garpenlov also showed that despite his small size lbs he was willing to throw himself around when necessary albeit not very successful yet he also still needs to work on his defense although he improved tremendously throughout the season and was actually quite a good penalty killer by the end of the season he will be a major key to the offense next year david bruce season th acquired from st louis in expansion draft grade i after a banner when he led the team in power play goals and was third in total scoring points in games bruce was bothered virtually all of this season with a groin injury which kept him out of the lineup for all by games this season of course it is difficult to speculate how well he would have done this season had he not been affected by the injury but the year old bruce was effective with a man up or a man short in the sharks first season and was expected to be a strong offensive leader this season as well the injury appears serious which is a shame because otherwise he may have a much brighter future for now instead his future with the sharks next season appears clouded mark pederson season rd acquired trade with philadelphia for c lw dave snuggerud grade i b it is difficult for me to understand the flyers decision to unload pederson after a very good offensive season last season points in games but after riding the pine early in the season pederson was summarily sent to the sharks in exchange of the defensive minded snuggerud and he finished with games combined with the flyers and the sharks he was also limited by injuries this season and this limited his production points but when healthy pederson appears impressive with a good scoring touch good size and the willingness to throw it around although he s not considered a physical forward and good speed he also does not appear to be a liability on defense but the sharks probably have to wait until next season to see how much exactly pederson can do john carter season th acquired free agent from boston grade i b b carter was definitely one of the hardest workers on the team and the hard work worked wonders as at times he looked great on ice however although he did look great at times the fact that he received just points in games for his efforts is a sign that there is only so much his hard work can do and the sharks confirmed that by sending him to kansas city with about games left in the season carter who will turn on may always hussled but as a result was sometimes trapped too deep within the offensive zone while forechecking but he was generally a credit on the defensive end but he is probably of limited utility in that capacity and he did not impress offensively although he was one of the best sharks at drawing penalties he is very unlikely to be back next season jean francois quintin season st acquired from minnesota in dispersal draft grade i b b i don t understand why the sharks didn t let quintin play any more than the games he played this season he was generally hard working and creating opportunities offensively and appeared at age ready for regular nhl duty at least for a team like the sharks finishing with points in those games while not being a defensive liability shoulder injury in training camp before the season limited quintin the team s leading scorer in exhibition games despite sitting out the final two to just games with the sharks and the blades that season but he looked impressive he should be a solid contender for regular duty next season mark beaufait season st acquired nd round pick in supplemental draft grade i after a all star season at kansas city beaufait got a cup of coffey with the sharks late in the season when the blades knocked down a playoff spot and the sharks decimated with injuries playing games and scoring a goal for his only nhl point thus far despite small size lbs beaufait was not shy to throw himself around when necessary and looked pretty good at times although it s too early to judge him based on nhl games in which he played mostly left wing away from his center position at northern michigan and kansas city jaroslav otevrel season st acquired th round pick in entry draft grade i like beaufait otevrel also played away from his normal position when he was up for his cup of tea games midway through the season he was generally very much of a defensive liability and did not show much offensively either although that may be more indicative of the lack of ice time he got in those games he may need another season to work on his defense but once his defense is acceptable he should be ready michel picard season st acquired trade with hartford for lw yvon corriveau grade i b c the year old picard although he perennially tore up the minors seems to be close to being out of chances for some reason after being acquired by the sharks but failing to impress the management in games scoring goals for his only points and he spent most of the rest of the way in kansas city he was not particularly strong defensively and despite his offensive brilliance in the minors he has failed thus far to score in the nhl although he has been given limited opportunities he may be the sharks bait in the expansion draft dody wood season st acquired rd round pick in entry draft grade i d d although perhaps i shouldn t give a grade at all i have been accused of knocking on wood too much then it is probably no surprise to you that i am thoroughly unimpressed by wood thus far although games is a small example he was generally a nonfactor on offense was not particularly good defensively and took too many silly penalties losing many fights in the process and gathering penalty minutes in those games projecting to to in an game season he s not ready and needs at least another season at kc where he can work on his fighting skills if nothing else his relatively small size lbs does not give much possibility that he can survive at this stage as an enforcer go calgary flames al macinnis for norris gary roberts for hart and smythe go edmonton oilers go for playoffs next year stay in edmonton nelson lu claudius leland stanford edu rec sport hockey contact for the san jose sharks
rec.sport.hockey	sharks review part defensemen i finally got it back with great thanks to mark spiegel for saving and sending it rob zettler season th acquired from minnesota in dispersal draft grade c c zettler gave the sharks every bit he s got this year unfortunately this still wasn t enough to make him any more than a marginal nhler if that he works hard for sure but is no better than average on defense and is prone to costly penalties and defensive lapses at times while being basically an offensive zero goal and assists in games he would be hardpressed to make the team next year david williams season nd acquired free agent from new jersey grade c c imo williams was the most valuable defenseman for the sharks in playing a combination of good offense goals and assists in games and good defense but he playing the first part of this season in kansas city was good neither offensively nor defensively this year it then appears that was a fluke although he improved towards the end of the season he was prone to being out of position defensively and did not demonstrate the playmaking skills that made him the team s leading scorer among defensemen last year he would also be hardpressed to make the team next year jayson more season nd acquired from montreal in expansion draft grade b after being touted as the team s top defensive prospects in training camp before more had a rather disappointing as he was not particularly good defensively and had just points in games he then proceeded to improve his game massively this season becoming the team s most reliable defenseman whom the team can count on night in and night out to play steady defense and providing occasional but only occasional offensive flash offensively he was even more disappointing than last year points in games but his defense improved tremendously he is probably best as the defensive part of a defense combination with an offensive defenseman neil wilkinson season th acquired from minnesota in dispersal draft grade b wilkinson was probably the team s top defensive defenseman in however partially because of injuries he was not the same this year as he missed games total due to nagging knee and back injuries and seemed to be slowed even when playing he then had often to be saved by his defensive partners that is if they are there at all but he also had some solid games and if he can be complete healthy he can still be a force sandis ozolinsh season st acquired nd round pick in entry draft grade i a at the time of his injury december against the philadelphia flyers ozolinsh was well on track to be imo the team s mvp a serious knee injury in that game though forced him to miss the rest of the season games but he still finished as the team s top scorer among defensemen points which of course tells more about the lack of offense the sharks had from their defensemen but it also tells of ozolinsh s abilities at the time he was playing very good defense along with excellent offense he was still susceptible to so called rookie mistakes but was probably the defenseman who made the least of them on the team rookie or veteran if he can come back from his injuries he is ready to be a star doug zmolek season st acquired from minnesota in dispersal draft grade b zmolek had basically a solid and durable year being one of the only two sharks to play in all games of the season he was solid on defense but after being billed as an offensive defenseman he didn t show it points he was also prone to penalties and his penalty minutes was second on the team however that was also an indication that he was fearly when facing tough physical opponents and he was at his best when playing physically but to become a fixture in this league he needs to improve both offensively and defensively and cut down on the number of power plays he gives to opponents go calgary flames al macinnis for norris gary roberts for hart and smythe go edmonton oilers go for playoffs next year stay in edmonton nelson lu claudius leland stanford edu rec sport hockey contact for the san jose sharks
rec.sport.hockey	re ron francis in article apr virginia edu mjr u virginia edu matthew j rush writes i forgot to ask is this the highest points total francis has had in a season has he ever had a point season before either with the pens or the whalers francis got in his last full season with hartford in agreement with your previous post i think francis is a tremendous and generally underrated complete player i would love to have him here in a capitals uniform where he would certainly be the center even though pivonka is also a very good complete player who is generally underrated francis impresses me in many ways as an ethical dale hunter tons of heart and can do attitude with a lot of different skills but none of the cheap shots and few penalty minutes not to mention nearly always coming through when it s important
rec.sport.hockey	re expanding to europe dusseldorf in apr informatik tu muenchen de voecking informatik tu muenchen de writes in article apr abo fi mlindroos finabo abo fi marcus lindroos inf writes in pkortela apr lk hp hut fi pkortela snakemail hut fi writes deg has many german born forwards in the team in fact the majority of players are german born deg had average in spectator arena interesting one of our german friends here robert told me their forwards were all canadian germans perhaps somebody can sort this out for us as far as i know dusseldorf has only one canadian german forward i e a player who was born in canada but now has a german passport benoit doucet became german by marriing a german and he is going to play for germany in the wc the other canada born forwards are peter john lee has british passport chris valentine dale dercatch steve gootas earl spry at the moment there are only three german born forwards coming into my mind bernd trunschka andreas brockmann ernst koepf hm do you think dusseldorf fans would like it if their team joined the nhl or do we have to include koln as well cologne to you anglophiles to make them happy volker marcu
rec.sport.hockey	re goalie masks in article apr ac dal ca brifre ac dal ca writes i saw a mask once that had drawings of band aids presumably for every puck that goalie stopped with his face head i can t remember who it was or even if it was nhl i see quite a few ahl games here gerry cheevers used to have a mask that had stitches painted all over it ken dryden s mask is a classic an archetype of our time
rec.sport.hockey	islanders sux need i say more
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl team captains in article k wbm z v andrew cmu edu am x andrew cmu edu anna matyas writes michael collingridge writes and while we are on the subject has a captain ever been traded resigned or been striped of his title during the season any other team captain trivia would be appreciated wasn t ron francis captain of the whalers when he was traded to pittsburgh mom chris chelios was montreal s co captain with guy carbonneau when he was traded to chicago for denis savard and peter stastny was captain of the quebec nordiques when he was traded to new jersey also mark messier was captain of the edmonton oilers when he was traded to new york how about dale hawerchuk with winnipeg when he was traded to buffalo was he captain too i think so i should not forget wayne you know who when he was traded to l a he was captain didn t they strip wendel clark of his capta incy in toronto just some updates and thoughts cheer daniel piche lmc u det design ericsson communications inc decarie blvd rd floor town of mont royal quebec h p n ext e mail lmcdapi lmc ericsson se memoid lmc lmcdapi cheers
rec.sport.hockey	does anybody have the schedule for games sunday apr hello hockey fans bonjour tout le monde well in salt lake city this past sunday the local abc station decided not to televise the hockey games la directrous de programme est la tete de merde anyway i have a satellite dish and a few of my friends from hockey have invited themselves over to watch the games this coming sunday apr and i can not find correct game times for the calgary at la game i have times showing everything from am mdt to pm mdt i am not even sure what games are going to be played this coming sunday now that abc has mucked up the schedule i think i should be able to pull in three games am pm and pm mdt off the dish but i am not sure if anybody has a schedule pleas emial it to me as you can see i have to telent to get rec sport hockey and it is sometimes difficult to get a link thanks in advance merci d avance p s anglais ou francais d accord roland behunin behunin oodis af mil behunin oodis hill af mil roland
rec.sport.hockey	re wings take game one in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes in qvos r msuinfo cl msu edu vergolin euler lbs msu edu david vergolini writes the detroit red wings put a lot of doubter on ice tonight with a washing of the toronto maple leafs all you toronto fans have now seen the power of the mighty red wing offense toronto s defense in no match for the wing offense as for the defense probert kennedey and primeau came out did they move probert back to defense why did i see him parking his ass in front of potvin all night somebody is going to have to discipline probert if the leafs want to win the series perhaps a fresh clark should hit the ice at the end of a long probert shift and straigten him out for a while during the regular season when the intensity is down not many teams have forwards who will continually go and park themselves in front of the opposing teams net and the inadequacy of the leafs defense in this regard thus didn t matter however the playoffs are a different story every good team is going to have players who are going to become potted plants in front of potvin and the leafs relatively unphysical defensive core will finally be exposed as weak an inept hard work will go a long way during the regular season almost to points and the leafs deserve credit for that but in the playoffs talent matters because everyone begins working hard gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re don cherry coach s corner summary april in article yfoz lm wboq hyq andrew cmu edu james j murawski jjm andrew cmu edu writes on apr in don cherry coach s corner user allan sullivan cs ualber writes next a clip was shown from an earlier episode in which don was proclaiming doug gilmour to be the best player not only in the nhl but in the world what about players like lemieux don said that gilmour was the best player not designated point getter its not like baseball where you have a designatted hitter who can score runs but can t play defense gilmour is a good two way player this clip was shown on local news in pittsburgh last night kdka complete with animated sarcasm by the sportscaster it s the second time cherry has been shown on local pittsburgh news in the last couple of weeks both times he was blasting lemieux his designated point getter remarks were not only meant for lemieux but for gretzky bure etc etc and he made those particular remarks last december before lemieux was diagnosed with hodgkin s and as the leafs started their second half roll and before gilmour s great season was being recognized by many people gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re abc coverage in article cfoy mw uh jndv andrew cmu edu anna matyas am x andrew cmu edu writes thorne is good and i ve always been a fan of clement but i miss mike emrick my boyfriend who is not a hockey fan even looked up at one point and said these guys are pretty good announcers this is the same guy who said that rick tocchet looks like charles bronson imho clement although he has a pleasant personality aggravatingly pleasant in my opinion is a terrible analyst because he is almost alway wrong the prototypical example being new jersey s first goal last sunday i grew up with dick irvin doing color beside danny gallivan i knew did irvin dick irvin was a friend of mine bill clement you aren t any dick irvin as long as the teams involved do not include the us national team or the new york rangers i d take john davidson over bill clement any day gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re pens playoff radio coverage was re radio stations in article c sfjv fa cs cmu edu lli cs cmu edu lori iannamico wrote according to this morning s post gazette the pens will be carried by kdka radio am unless the pirates are playing when the pirates play the games will be carried by wdve fm wdve will carry games starting with tonight s game in fact after this season kdka will no longer be the flagship station for the pens the penguins and kbl have struck a new deal regarding the tv and radio rights to the games it seems more than likely that wdve will be the flagship radio station next season kbl will carry games on tv with of the games to be simulcast on kdka tv the remaining games as well as some of the early round playoff games will be available by subscription tv only to receive the games you ll have to pay a one time hook up fee and then a monthly fee of dollars also under the new deal there will no longer be radio tv simulcasts there will be a tv broadcast team and a radio broadcast team no word on who the announcers will be mike lange and paul steigerwald are both under contract with kdka but their contracts expire at the end of this season kbl president bill craig said he d like to hire lange and steigerwald lori contact for the penguins lli cs cmu edu nooooooooooooooooo who s the mindscheme behind this one ted simmons as the saying goes if it ain t broke don t fix it i m miles from home during the school year and will never be able to pick up dve at least now i can sort of make out what mike and steigy say through all the static on kdka this just may be enough reason for me to transfer to duquesne and live at home who s going to announce on dve anyway paulson and krenn just kidding george
rec.sport.hockey	if you were pat burns what are the leafs to do i am a leaf supporter and i say the leafs are going down in four unless there is nothing short of a miracle or a stroke of genenius hits pat burns if you were pat burns what would you do living in the bay area i do not get enough leaf coverage to pull something out of the bag i would appreciate comments on the leaf detroit rd line match ups but here is the basic idea andreychuck and borchevsky have no business playing against the wings they are too small the key to any leafs success will have to be clark he is the only centre who can have any presence within stick lengths of the slot where the hell is anderson anderson can in days past get under peoples skin put a little more bluntly anderson has to be an asshole he used to be good at it we need him now perhaps perhaps the leafs can shut down detroit s second line i was dissappointed to see shepard and yserbeart flying last night these guys are the swing players for the wings last year they did a major choke in the playoffs and were to blame for the quick exit of the wings this has to happen again clark anderson gilmour should be able to out hustle this line anderson should do a nasty on yserbeart clark should bang the hell out of sheppard score gilmour score suggestions clarke anderson gilmour vs sheppard yserbeart andreychuck borchevsy vs detroit checking line toronto s checking line vs yzerman fedorov probert pray lots as suggested i would bench andreychuck and borchevsky to stir things up and through a monkey wrench into detroits game plan however if the detroit coaching would be dumb enough to play their checking line against these finesse players well then let them play potvin can not be faulted on of the goals keep him in van hellamond can not be faulted for the leafs demise either the wings defense shut down the leafs especially in the slot i hope pat burns realizes that his team was out hit out skated and out coached on monday night this was not a loss because of poor goaltending or officiating this calls for drastic measures or tee off is next monday jake go leafs
rec.sport.hockey	re radio stations in article ragraca vela acs oakland edu ragraca vela acs oakland edu randy a graca writes the pittsburgh penguins games used to be broadcast on kdka but i don t know whether they will be pre empted by baseball and moved to another station or not you can try those if the local baseball teams aren t playing at the same time anyway randy the pens are now being broadcast on wdve carol
rec.sport.hockey	bowman whining already i should have guessed it s time for the annual pittsburgh penguins whine a thon bowman was complaning about cheap shots by the devils in game i m sorry mr bowman you re a great coach but those cheap shots were nothing compared to what s going to come also i guess you were only able to notice the cheap shots made by the guys not in white it s amazing what those black and gold colored glasses will do ps nice dive on that high stick mario everyone knew it was a high stick you could have stayed on your feet and saved your diving talent for later just stirring it up a bit ralph
rec.sport.hockey	re cbc game choices was la on cbc in a previous article uwovax uwo ca says in article boora sfu ca boora kits sfu ca the godfather writes cbc had a great chance for some double headers toronto detroit and vancouver winnipeg but today they said that the east gets the leafs and the west get the vancouver game i thought that they would show them both i m totally p o d too vancouver winnipeg is great west coast hockey fast paced and loads of talent what i ve seen so far is hardly entertaining with the exception of the odd shift every now then of course i missed calgary la pitts jersey no because the pinheads at cbc figure everyone here in ontario cares for the leafs the maple leafs and nothing but the leafs half of southern ontario is people who moved from out west but the good folks in toronto couldn t care less they should show the doubleheader heck the second game would have two canadian teams and let those desperate for news watch the national on newsworld but they don t why because canada ends at windsor don cha know grrrrr amen now i have to get updates every mins on cnn headline news for crying out loud that s cheaper than what i do phone calls there must be a better system one ring adams to linden he scores two rings bure rushes up the ice he scores etc etc ad freenet carleton ca rachel holme
rec.sport.hockey	matt militzok please read sorry to everyone for wasting space matt the other day you posted that you were doing a mailing list of playoff stats i lost your address please put me on that list thanks george
rec.sport.hockey	re wings will win in article ragraca vela acs oakland edu ragraca vela acs oakland edu randy a graca writes golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca gerald olchowy writes bryan murray has done very little as gm yzerman fedorov cheveldae chaisson the whole russian strategy was a product of the previous gm murray has made a couple of decent trades that s about it that would hardly rank him as the best gm there are many teams in the nhl who have taken a liking to russian players the whole russian strategy is not specific to detroit or to devellano who was gm before murray what the previous gm also did was to trade away several players who have gone on to do well with other teams most notably in my memory murray craven who had a few very good years with philly after leaving here also it s not the volume of trades that will necessarily improve a team but the quality of them trading adam oates for bernie federko was just plain stupid even if federko used to be a great player at one time most of murray s trades have worked significantly to the wings advantage with those that didn t being soured mainly by injury to the players involved such as troy crowder who suffered back problems from which he never really recovered devallano went earlier and more extensively to the russian strategy than anyone else and was the first gm to waste high draft choices on young russians devallano would still be gm but he succombed to demers pleading to make the oates federko et al trade which is the deal that sealed his fate murray has made some decent trades no doubt but these are more due to the stupidity or cheapness of other teams than brilliance on his part washington was too cheap to pay ciccarelli so they essentially gave him away and carson was really a big anchor to the team and he was able to sucker a rookie gm to give him paul coffey for deadweight if detroit still fails this year because he was one defenseman short then he will have wasted an opportunity because manson was available and he was unable to pull the trigger it is his judgement that he has enough with what he s got yzerman doesn t have that many more years in his prime gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re murray as gm was wings will win in article apr venus lerc nasa gov smorris venus lerc nasa gov ron morris writes gerald murray wasn t responsible for primeau although i m not ready to admit that s a horrible pick they hired him after the draft which has never made sense to me his first pick was lapointe i don t think primeau is necessarily a bad pick i m was just trying to locate the beginning of murray s decisions he slowness in trading carson has delayed primeau s development and you have to wait longer for big players often and primeau can be a very good player without being a point a game player especially on a team that has yzerman and fedorov if primeau becomes joel otto and gets goals a season and plays mean it will have been an extremely good pick gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re panther s president in article p a b w w cybernet cse fau edu jimg cybernet cse fau edu jim gorycki writes a little bio from sun sentinel torrey the architect of four consecutive stanley cup champions as persident and general manager of the new york islanders throughout his years in the nhl bill torrey s bow ties have become as much of a signature as andre agassi s hair the panthers will introduce a uniform insignia and ticket price information in early next month in the meantime huizenga leaves the day to day operation in the hands of torrey and bob clarke the vp and gm the san jose sharks and ottawa senators are each on their second gm already i d be willing to wager that both the sharks and senators will probably see their rd gm s and perhaps their th before we see the panthers second gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re wc results april in article r c t access digex net steveg cadkey com steve gallichio writes gerald olchowy golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca writes podein is an interesting case because he was eligible to play in cape breton in the ahl playoffs like kovalev zubov and andersson obviously sather and pocklington are not the total scrooges everyone makes them out to be certainly in this case they ve massively outclassed paramount and the new york rangers what is the policy regarding players and the minor league playoffs versus wc i know that the rangers are holding back kovalev zubov and andersson for binghamton but i also know that the whalers wanted michael nylander to play for springfield while nylander wanted to play for sweden the whalers allowed the nhl to decide and the nhl chose the wcs how does this differ from the rangers and oilers did the whalers have to go through the league or could they have forced nylander to play in springfield obviously it is ultimately the teams choice the nhl would obviously prefer not to annoy the european hockey federations but the nhl right now cannot force nhl teams to free their players the whalers probably did it this way so as to not annoy their farm team affiliate gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re nords habs in o t we was robbed deepak chhabra dchhabra stpl ists ca wrote speaking of great players man oh man can quebec skate i haven t seen a team so potent on the rush in a long time watching them break out of their zone especially sundin is a treat to watch they remind me of the red army dchhabra stpl ists ca pissed off habs fan yeah the nords look like they re going to be good but excuse the bias have you ever watched the pens on a rush don t answer everyone has seen this footage near the end of the season when the pens played the nords it was like watching a younger double of the pens the nords looked good right up to the point when they lost ravi shah shah pitt edu la mu sica ideas portara approx translation music will bring ideas y siempre continuara and will continue forever sonido electro nico electronic sound decibel sinte tico musique non stop synthetic decibel kraftwerk
rec.sport.hockey	re thumbs up to espn in article c sclk b cbnewsh cb att com seth cbnewsh cb att com peter r clark jr writes what did you leave the room each of the or so times they said that there were no other night baseball games every break they took back at the studio mentioned it followed by so we re gonna show you hockey instead my wife and i are hoping for rain at every baseball game they have a feed for tommorrow night point is be glad they showed hockey but if baseball was available anywhere else you can bet you would ve watched baseball last night pete clark i know that there wasn t other games on the schedule but espn sometimes shows classic games from previous season to fill in the time slot a l l e z l e s b l u e s joe ashkar contact for the blues saint louis jca cec wustl edu blues
rec.sport.hockey	re thumbs up to espn with everyone bitching about the hockey coverage by espn its almost like the detroit toronto game was not televised last nite i was just thankful to see hockey on a night that it wasn t supposed to be carried thanks to espn no matter why they televised the game craig
rec.sport.hockey	remarks by president clinton to ncaa division i champion hockey team here is a press release from the white house remarks by president clinton to ncaa division i champion hockey team april q a following to national desk contact white house office of the press secretary washington april following is a transcript of remarks by president clinton to the university of maine black bears ncaa division i hockey champions the rose garden a m edt the president good morning ladies and gentlemen it s an honor for me to welcome the university of maine black bears the winner of the ncaa division i hockey national championship to the rose garden and the white house i understand from senator mitchell that this is the first team from the university of maine every to win a national championship and we re glad to have them here i m inspired not only by how the team pulled together to win the championship but how the entire state pulled together to cheer them onto victory coming from a state that is also relatively small in size but also filled with pride and tradition and community i can understand how the people of maine must feel about the black bears in our state people are still talking about the time we won the orange bowl over the number one ranked football team and that was back in i m sure that years from now the people of maine will as proud of this team as they are today you know in my state football is a slightly more popular sport than hockey we don t have a lot of ice laughter but after spending three months getting banged around in this town i can understand a little more about hockey than i did before i came here hockey is a tough game it s a hard hitting sport it does have one virtue though there s a penalty for delay of game i wish we had that rule in the senate laughter in government as in hockey leadership is important in the united states senate our team has a great captain the majority leader and the senior senator from maine george mitchell junior senator cohen looks so young i can t imagine laughter i m actually bitter about senator cohen because he looks so much younger than me on your hockey team the captain jim montgomery has done a great job he scored the winning goal late in the championship game leading you to a come from behind victory something else i know a little bit about sport brings out the best in individuals and in teams and in communities i share the pride that senator mitchell and senator cohen and congressman andrews and all the people of maine must feel for the black bears who have shown us all how to play as a team how to bring out the best in one another and how to come from behind i think it s important as i ask young people from around america who have achieved outstanding things in working together to come here to the white house to be recognized and appreciated by their country to remember that those kinds of values and those kinds of virtues need to be ingrained in all of us for all of our lives we now have another role model and i m glad to have them here today applause the president is presented with team jersey applause the president that s great i love it it s beautiful applause the president is presented with an autographed stick the president thank you that s great applause q mr president did you authorize the move on waco this morning sir the president i was aware of it i think the attorney general made the decision and i think i should refer all questions to her and to the fbi q did you have any instructions for her as to how it should be executed the president no they made the tactical decisions that was their judgment the fbi q is this a raid the president and i will i want to refer you to talk to the attorney general and the fbi i knew it was going to be done but the decisions were entirely theirs all the tactical decisions q what did you and senator mitchell talk about this morning q any chance for that stimulus package the president senator mitchell ought to pay my quarter laughter i was in there laughter senator mitchell you have to pay that quarter the president i was ready laughter senator mitchell he s worth a quarter any day q any chance for your bill sir the president we talked about what was going to happen this week in the senate and about what other meetings we re going to have for the rest of the week we only had about five minutes to talk and we agreed we d get back together later around noon and talk some more q senator dole said over the weekend that your compromise is no compromise the president well i know he did but look senator dole and a lot of the other republicans now in the senate voted for the same kind of thing for ronald reagan in and our research indicates that a majority of them over time voted for a total of emergency spending measures totalling over billion when reagan and bush were president in those administrations and many of those purposes were not nearly as worthy as putting the american people back to work i don t want to go back and revisit every one but you can do it you can look at the research there so this position they re taking is not credible we have a very tough five year deficit reduction plan all these costs are covered during that time and then some and the very people that are saying this has all got to be paid for don t have much of a history on which to base their position they ve got years of vote for stimulus measures of this kind that had very little to with putting the american people back to work so i think we ve got a chance to work it out and i m hopeful we ll see what happens today and tomorrow i m feeling pretty good about it the press thank you end a m edt canada remote systems toronto ontario
rec.sport.hockey	re wirtz is a weenie in article wfozwmi uh e kye andrew cmu edu rp andrew cmu edu robert angelo pleshar writes in other tv news the penguins announced yesterday that they will have fewer broadcast tv games and will have games on some sort of subscription pay per view system yuck this is incorrect this year the pens had games on free tv and games on ppv next year they will have games on free tv and on a subscription basis you actually get more free game than last year and there will be no more radio only games its a good deal last year everybody bitched about baldwin breaking up the team now he goes out of his way to keep the nucleus of this team together and that takes money he comes up with a creative way to generate more revenue so he can afford this team and people bitch some more everybody wants something for nothing dean dean j falcione badges what badges we using jrmst by permission don t need no stinkin of the owner joe mcdonald badges
rec.sport.hockey	re abc coverage joseph b stiehm joe pitt edu wrote i have one complaint for the cameramen doing the jersey pitt series show the shots not the hits on more than one occassion the camera zoomed in on a check along the boards while the puck was in the slot they panned back to show the rebound maybe mom s camera people were a little more experienced joseph stiehm exactly that is my biggest complaint about the coverage so far follow that damn puck ravi shah shah pitt edu la mu sica ideas portara approx translation music will bring ideas y siempre continuara and will continue forever sonido electro nico electronic sound decibel sinte tico musique non stop synthetic decibel kraftwerk
rec.sport.hockey	re if you were pat burns in article r chb l jethro corp sun com jake rambler eng sun com writes what are the leafs to do i am a leaf supporter and i say the leafs are going down in four unless there is nothing short of a miracle or a stroke of genenius hits pat burns if you were pat burns what would you do pray for the wings to become lazy and overconfident the wings can only lose the series toronto cannot win it take away doug gilmour and the leafs are an old tampa bay the leafs deserve a lot of credit for their diligent effort during the regular season but if detroit puts in a reasonable effort this is not a contest gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re if you were pat burns in article r chb l jethro corp sun com jake rambler eng sun com jason cockroft writes suggestions clarke anderson gilmour vs sheppard yserbeart andreychuck borchevsy vs detroit checking line toronto s checking line vs yzerman fedorov probert pray lots well i m a wings fan and i think the first thing that you should do is to get the opponent s line combinations correct before you try to match up anyone with them there is no yzerman fedorov probert line except for maybe on a powerplay these three players usually play on three different lines which would mean that toronto s checking line would have to pull a triple shift the wings lines usually look like this gallant yzerman ciccarelli kozlov fedorov drake kennedy burr probert ysebaert primeau sheppard oh by the way start praying laurie marshall wayne state university detroit michigan go wings
rec.sport.hockey	re bay area media wings leafs coverage maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes in dreier apr durban berkeley edu dreier durban berkeley edu roland dreier writes the san francisco bay area media is reporting tonight that the detroit red wings beat the toronto maple leafs can someone who is not part of the media conspiracy against the leafs tell me how the game really went i am expecting a win for the leafs shutout for potvin hat trick for andreychuk and a goal and assists for gilmour if the leafs really lost how many penalties did whichever biased ref was at the game have to call against the leafs to let the red wings win ah yes california did the san francisco bay area media report that joe montana is rumoured to be the leading candidate to replace fired san jose sharks coach george kingston apparently montana is not only coveted for his winning attitude but as a playing coach he will be expected to quarterback the powerplay good comeback rog your quick wit and intelligence continues to amaze everyone john franjione department of chemical engineering university of colorado boulder franjion spot colorado edu
rec.sport.hockey	re if you were pat burns in apr alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca gerald olchowy writes pray for the wings to become lazy and overconfident the wings can only lose the series toronto cannot win it take away doug gilmour and the leafs are an old tampa bay right gerald and take away bob probert and the wings are dead octopuses the leafs deserve a lot of credit for their diligent effort during the regular season but if detroit puts in a reasonable effort this is not a contest let s wait for the body to get cold before we start in with the eulogies hm they have only lost one game the game was in detroit after all and potvin did not have his best evening nobody that i saw thought that the leafs would sweep the wings it looks like it might go six the leafs will take the wings home advantage away in the next game cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time
rec.sport.hockey	re goalie masks in article apr newshub ists ca dchhabra stpl ists ca deepak chhabra writes and i ll give fuhr s new one an honourable mention although i haven t seen it closely yet it looked good from a distance this is the new buffalo one the second since he s been with the sabres i recall a price tag of over just for the paint job on that mask and a total price of almost ouch valerie hammerl birtday n an event when friends get hammerl acsu buffalo edu together set your dessert on fire then acscvjh ubms cc buffalo edu laugh and sing while you frantically try v pwwpz ubvms cc buffalo edu to blow it out
rec.sport.hockey	re octopus in detroit in article apr news clarkson edu farenebt logic camp clarkson edu droopy writes in fact the tradition has been passed down to their affiliate in adirondack in gm of last yr s finals an legged creature was hurled onto the frozen pond and landed right at the feet of ref lance roberts it may have been passed to toronto but i ve even seen an octopus at the aud last year s bruins sabres game i knew all about the detroit version but seeing at the aud was a bit puzzling valerie hammerl birtday n an event when friends get hammerl acsu buffalo edu together set your dessert on fire then acscvjh ubms cc buffalo edu laugh and sing while you frantically try v pwwpz ubvms cc buffalo edu to blow it out
rec.sport.hockey	re pens playoff radio coverage was re radio stations in article gp m bgsu edu gp andy bgsu edu george pavlic writes nooooooooooooooooo who s the mindscheme behind this one ted simmons as the saying goes if it ain t broke don t fix it i m miles from home during the school year and will never be able to pick up dve at least now i can sort of make out what mike and steigy say through all the static on kdka this just may be enough reason for me to transfer to duquesne and live at home who s going to announce on dve anyway paulson and krenn just kidding george don t kid around they just might listen kevin l stamber purdue university waiting to hear free bird as the new penguins theme
rec.sport.hockey	list of tee times at metropolitan toronto golf courses for monday kevin l stamber purdue university and phil kirzyc the kielbasa kid will roam the arena for interviews
rec.sport.hockey	abc s announcers espn s lack of coverage was re atlanta in article apr newshub ists ca dchhabra stpl ists ca deepak chhabra writes ok here s the solution to your problem move to canada yesterday i was able to watch four games the nj pitt at on abc la cal at cbc buff bos at tsn and fox and mon que at cbc i think that if each series goes its max i could be watching hockey playoffs for some odd consecutive nights i haven t counted so that s a pure guess the worst thing is that this is exactly what i did last year i had the rangers on msg and the two different games on scny and sca on at the same time yes i d rather have sc cover it just for the amount of coverage btw those abc commentaters were great i was quite impressed they seemed to know that their audience wasn t likely to be well schooled in hockey lore and they did an excellent job they were quite impartial also imo i think thorne earns his money the best part is that he is the same way when he is earning his from sportschannel as the devils announcer i e unbiased he goes orgasmic for goals despite which team scores and even more excited if possible for great saves he did a good job of explaining certain things to non hockey types without offending those of us who follow the sport unlike nbc s clowns for the asg jpc ob playoff time flame bait don t any of you pittsburgh fans tell me how mike lang e is better maybe if he were a little spontaneous rather than reading rehearsed lines of b s having nothing to do with hockey he would be better john p curcio go bruins philips laboratories jpc philabs philips com scarborough road briarcliff manor ny
rec.sport.hockey	re list of tee times at metropolitan toronto golf courses for monday in article c spec euc noose ecn purdue edu stamber rainbow ecn purdue edu kevin l stamber writes kevin l stamber purdue university and phil kirzyc the kielbasa kid will roam the arena for interviews woops this is rec sport hockey not rec sport golf hope you check the newsgroup header next time before posting steve steve lee university of western ontario london canada lee obelix gaul csd uwo ca
rec.sport.hockey	re hockey hispanic market in article bu edu icop csa bu edu antonio pera writes in article saross starbase spd louisville edu saross starbase spd louisville edu stacey a ross writes in c i s bt odin corp sgi com rickc wrigley corp sgi com richard casares writes you ll have a hard time selling any sport to a community that can t play it on account of availability or financial reasons hockey is pretty much a sport for the white and well off what is this crap i m only interested in intelligent discussion if you can t answer my question just say so can anyone else answer the ques it s not really crap you know only half crap from what i understand it s very expensive to play hockey south of the border actually it s not that cheap up hear either though once you have all the equipement it s not more than a year actually i haven played in about years so i could be off a bit in the states where ice time is considerably more expensive it can cost over a thousand a year compare this to baseball and you ll see that hockey is a sport for the well to do and this brings up the fact that the well to do in the us are majority white btw what was the original question i think it has to do with the hispanic communtiy and playing hockey cheers i ingo sunee uwaterloo ca the more violent the body iwweigel descartes uwaterloo ca contact of the sports you ingo electrical watstar uwaterloo ca watch the lower your class iwweigele electrical watstar uwaterloo ca paul fussell if the university of waterloo had on opinion this probably wouldn t be it
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl team captains in article apr exu ericsson se lmcdapi noah ericsson se writes in article k wbm z v andrew cmu edu am x andrew cmu edu anna matyas writes michael collingridge writes and while we are on the subject has a captain ever been traded resigned or been striped of his title during the season any other team captain trivia would be appreciated wasn t ron francis captain of the whalers when he was traded to pittsburgh mom chris chelios was montreal s co captain with guy carbonneau when he was traded to chicago for denis savard and peter stastny was captain of the quebec nordiques when he was traded to new jersey also mark messier was captain of the edmonton oilers when he was traded to new york how about dale hawerchuk with winnipeg when he was traded to buffalo was he captain too i think so i should not forget wayne you know who when he was traded to l a he was captain didn t they strip wendel clark of his captaincy in toronto buffalo seems to have started a tradition of trading its captains pat lafontaine was awarded the captaincy when mike ramsey was forced to give it up ramsey s now a penguin ramsey inherited it from mike foligno who s now a leaf he in turn had inherited it from lindy ruff who went i forget where ruff had it from perreault who retired so i guess that s where the streak started or did it after all danny gare was captain before him and he went to detroit jim scoenfeld gerry meehan and floyd smith are the others in reverse order last to first i was a bit young at the time so i m not sure of the fate of schoenfeld but he ultimately went to detroit and boston meehan went to vancouver atlanta and washington smith seems to have hung up his skates after buffalo but i don t know if the captaincy was removed before or after that or how many games he played for buffalo this is actually getting fascinating captaincy in buffalo is a sure sign you re to be traded almost unless you re a franchise player valerie hammerl birtday n an event when friends get hammerl acsu buffalo edu together set your dessert on fire then acscvjh ubms cc buffalo edu laugh and sing while you frantically try v pwwpz ubvms cc buffalo edu to blow it out
rec.sport.hockey	re bay area media wings leafs coverage in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes in dreier apr durban berkeley edu dreier durban berkeley edu roland dreier writes the san francisco bay area media is reporting tonight that the detroit red wings beat the toronto maple leafs can someone who is not part of the media conspiracy against the leafs tell me how the game really went i am expecting a win for the leafs shutout for potvin hat trick for andreychuk and a goal and assists for gilmour if the leafs really lost how many penalties did whichever biased ref was at the game have to call against the leafs to let the red wings win ah yes california did the san francisco bay area media report that joe montana is rumoured to be the leading candidate to replace fired san jose sharks coach george kingston apparently montana is not only coveted for his winning attitude but as a playing coach he will be expected to quarterback the powerplay close roger but no banana er avocado or is it artichoke geracie in the murky news said kingston will be the new ers quarterback i m still trying to determine if he is kidding or not if i happen to pound down enuff pints sometime this week i ll go back and check what stooper idiot purdy said in his column that ought to be worth a few leafs i mean laughs if i m really depressed i ll read the sf comicle mark just say mark spiegel spiegel lmsc lockheed com cow palace k epicenter
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl team captains nj and while we are on the subject has a captain ever been traded nj resigned or been striped of his title during the season any other nj team captain trivia would be appreciated mike foligno was captain of the buffalo sabres when he was traded to toronto stephen legge slegge kean ucs mun ca
rec.sport.hockey	nhl playoff leaders as of april playoff leaders as of april player team gp g a pts pim m lemieux pit juneau bos noonan chi mogilny buf neely bos brown stl jagr pit oates bos carson la hunter was stevens nj cullen tor hull stl khristich was linden van racine det shanahan stl sydor la yzerman det bure van coffey det drake det emerson stl g courtnall van johansson was lapointe que niedermayer nj ramsey pit sandstrom la smehlik buf stevens pit adams van barr nj bellows mon burr det chiasson det craven van dahlquist cal dionne mon felsner stl ferraro nyi francis pit gilmour tor hannan buf heinze bos howe det huddy la king win lafontaine buf lefebvre tor mcsorley la millen la ronning van rucinsky que sakic que sheppard det steen win suter cal sweeney buf tipett pit yawney cal young que barnes win borschevsky tor brunet mon chelios chi ciccarelli det clark tor desjardins mon dipietro mon donnelly la driver nj duchesne que ellett tor elynuik was flatley nyi fleury cal gallant det gill tor granato la gretzky la guerin nj hawerchuk buf holik nj housley win janney stl k brown chi khmylev buf krygier was larmer chi macinnis cal matteau chi mceachern pit mclean van mcrae stl mullen pit muller mon murphy pit murzyn van otto cal pearson tor pivonka was primeau det probert det reichel cal ricci que robitaille la roenick chi samuelsson pit semak nj shannon win shuchuk la sundin que sutter chi taylor la tocchet pit vaske nyi maurice richard
rec.sport.hockey	leafs versus wings how long can the leafs play short handed and still be expected to score they did some fine penely killing in the first men down for a couple of minutes at one point but they just couldn t keep it up they spent virtually the entire game either short handed or just coming off a penelty as soon as they d get re grouped they re penalized again sheesh like gilmour said after the st you can t go calling every little push an shove in a game like that and if you re going to you have to do it for both teams pearson one of my four favorite leafs played like a bonehead i saw him personally screw up at least good scoring opportunities and then he got that bonehead minute major high sticking penalty cullen has gotten stronger since his return from injury a hand full of games ago and he played a good game if the other players on his line can smarten up that line should do okay clark s got to get tough he s got to intimidate and go for the net send clark up the left wing over the blue line a couple times his patented wrist shot will put some numbers on the board and pearson heck maybe he should be benched i hate to repeat grapes but where the heck was foligno zezel can t do all the checking himself and get macllwain on the move we need some speed out there keep potvin in net he did okay considering although like i said a couple weeks ago potvin messed up in a couple games in the ahl playoffs last year he can easily do it again my prediction last week was toronto in that the games det wins will be blow outs and the game tor wins will be close i still stand by that don t fret leafs fans in order to win in the other team has to win burns is going to make some magic he ll mix up some lines match the wings line per line he ll have his team checking hard and he ll never let them get out numbered in their own end the leafs will win wednesday night and will take or their home games probably the first one stephen leaf legge slegge kean ucs mun ca
rec.sport.hockey	octopus during the detroit game mon night there were octopus thrown on the ice what is the meaning or symbolism here they used to throw fish on the ice here in spokane afew years ago i never knew where this came from
rec.sport.hockey	re nhlpa poll partial stats results in article ofnmao iv a kyd andrew cmu edu young soo che yc andrew cmu edu writes all these people who send in their polls should take a closer look at njd they are a very deep team with two very capable goalies and excellent forwards and defensemen shooter in richer an all around do it all in todd chef stasny master of a thousand dishes power play kevin todd is an oiler and has been one for months how closely do you follow the devils anyway jeez alan
rec.sport.hockey	re tie breaker isles and devils in article lrw f rpi edu wangr vccsouth its rpi edu rex wang writes are people here stupid or what it is a tie breaker of cause they have to have the same record how can people be sooooo stuppid to put win as first in the list for tie breaker if it is a tie breaker how can there be different record man i thought people in this net are good with hockey i might not be great in math but tell me how can two teams ahve the same points with different record man retard can t believe people actually put win as first in a tie breaker then allow me to enlighten you rex you see there s a thing called a tie a tie is worth one point i know i know you re not good at math but bear with me a win is worth two points so getting two ties is the same as getting one win if your team played two games won one and lost one you d have two points if my team played two games and tied them both we d also have two points we d be tied in the standings even though our records are different perhaps you should learn something about hockey before posting again i am starting to sound like roger or what alan
rec.sport.hockey	re wings will win gballent hudson uvic ca greg ballentine writes all of this is fine i never said that murray was a bad gm i merely said that he isn t the best gm in hockey or even a contender for that honor if murray is as great as you claim the wings would have won the stanley cup by now probably more than once if he was as great a gm as you claim i think you missed one of my points there it takes more than a great gm to win a stanley cup even once some of the guys on the list you gave earlier never won one i agree that you and i could probably argue back and forth for days to no avail about who is the best gm in hockey that is a matter of opinion and who is to say my opinion is any better than yours or yours than mine but the point of my original original post if not well stated was that murray has the gm abilities but not the coaching abilities which leads to below and he was as poor a coach as you claim he would have been intelligent enough to hire the coach to push the team to the next level of success i think at this point there s a personal emotional element involved here which transcends murray s logical thought as outsiders it s fine for us to say he should hire a different coach in fact he has talked about doing so in the past but the press here in detroit at least has so built up this business about murray never getting past the second round of the playoffs as a coach that i think he has taken it upon himself to prove to the world that he is capable of coaching a team past the second round he needs to as the papers say get that monkey off his back so it becomes a matter not of intelligence but of pride is it foolish to let pride stand in the way of sound logic perhaps but we re all a little that way from time to time i think eventually he ll step down from behind the bench and concentrate on his gm duties and the team will improve as a result i think his coaching duties take away time he might have otherwise spent on gm work in that sense once he steps down as coach we ll see how good of a gm he really is but murray is an average unspectacular nhl coach and a pretty good gm so none of this is true anyway i may not agree with everything you ve said but it s been fun discussing it with you gregmeister randy
rec.sport.hockey	re schedule in article apr news columbia edu gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes i can t believe that espn is making sportschannel america look good but only in ny nj philadelphia and chicago everywhere else the only reason sportschannel was available was for local baseball broadcasts and local baseball pre empted the nhl playoffs thus far into this playoff season espn abc has given me more hockey in days game than sportschannel did games if people want hockey on tv they should watch hockey on tv i bet the ratings for hockey on sunday on abc went into the toilet next week there will be far fewer abc affiliates with hockey someone in this thread said that he wouldn t watch the games even if they were on tv and this is a r s h regular contributor xenophobes north of border needn t fear the us americanization of our game because us americans will never figure out how to market hockey here support your team support your game mike eisler mre eng sun com not only are they leafs the best team but their fans are even more intelligent and insightful than pittsburgh s their players are mighty bright too i mean he really was going to get his wallet back right jan brittenson on leaf pen woofers in rec sport hockey
rec.sport.hockey	re nords habs in o t we was robbed in article apr newshub ists ca dchhabra stpl ists ca deepak chhabra writes in article apr vm mcgill ca jbe jbe musicb mcgill ca writes aargh paul stewart is the worst and most biased ref presently in the nhl he called a total of penalties on the habs and one on the nordiques the nords penalty came in o t stewart being an ex nordique himself was looking to call penalties on the habs while letting the nords get away with murder we was robbed no patrick roy is the reason the game was lost and ron hextall is the reason quebec won everybody said it would come down to goaltending that goaltending was the key etc etc well the key doesn t quite fit if you re montreal i don t buy this at all roy was the reason the game was tied and that would not have been the case had dionne kept his cool hextall gave up very questionable goals himself both dionne s and bellows shots were misplayed by hextall but just because his gaffes were early in the game no one seems to care roy stood on his head for the first minutes of the game when the nords were rushing from end to end kamensky s mini break after the tying goal and the first shot by young in ot were both excellent chances stopped by roy roy outplayed hextall for most of the game but roy becomes the villain and hextall the hero because roy s team didn t make full use of their opportunities hextall on the other hand had a lot of lucky bounces he played very well but the haller shot off the post in ot the rebound bouncing over bellows stick the brunet breakaway the chances for leclair all those opportunities were not finished off by montreal and it cost them hextall wasn t particularly brilliant on those plays blaming stewart is just an excuse to avoid facing the fact that roy allowed what was one of the worst goals he could possibly allow he even saw the whole shot dammit sure no excuse but it was just the goal the timing stank but against an explosive team like quebec they gave them opportunity too many with a powerplay that was totally unnecessary montreal played a solid game although they still don t know how to clear traffic in front of the net the loss of schneider will hurt even more i disagree roy played well because he wasn t screened the whole night the defense for the st time this season played remarkably keeping sakic nolan and sundin out of the slot most of the night normally i would say that any team that blows a goal lead with less than five let alone two minutes to go in regulation time in a playoff game especially needs to be smacked upside their collective heads but i don t think this was a team loss although keane should have been able to clear the zone just prior to the first quebec goal this most certainly was a team loss leclair missed his opportunities as did bellows and brunet dionne took a bad penalty damphousse and lebeau were silent carbonneau and savard were a step behind all night roy gave up the bad goal roy by no means can be singled out for this loss roy is paid big money to play he looked like a player in an industrial league on sakic s shot and hextall didn t on dionne s goal please roy is paid big money because that is his value compared to other goalies and he still is in the top when you consider the defense or lack of one that played in front of him for most of the season demers should start racicot in the next game if not that he should let the damn team read the papers for the next day or two and maybe this article if possible the montreal media is the quickest to heap praise and then hurl derogatory comments against the habs they are no better than uninformed fans why should they read the papers they played minutes of burnsian hockey to shut down quebec all they need tonight and for the rest of the series is the extra red light to face quebec rubbish that s a guaranteed way to end the series who would be taught a lesson by this the fans the media and racicot perhaps certainly not the rest of the team i didn t think the wrap around was as bad as the second goal i also didn t think scott young should have gotten around the defender can t remember who in the first place but you are correct it shouldn t have gone in regardless if you mean the goal should never have gone in because there should never have been an ot then i agree but the goal itself was a great piece of work by young roy had both the near and far posts covered but young flipped the puck up under roy s arm as he wrapped around the net not a bad goal at all yaska yaska eecg toronto edu dept of electrical computer engineering sankar university of toronto toronto canada
rec.sport.hockey	re matt militzok please read in article gp m bgsu edu gp andy bgsu edu george pavlic wrote sorry to everyone for wasting space matt the other day you posted that you were doing a mailing list of playoff stats i lost your address please put me on that list thanks george sorry again i guess you need my address gp mailserver bgsu edu
rec.sport.hockey	re list of tee times at metropolitan toronto golf courses for monday lee gaul csd uwo ca steve lee writes in article c spec euc noose ecn purdue edu stamber rainbow ecn purdue edu kevin l stamber writes woops this is rec sport hockey not rec sport golf hope you check the newsgroup header next time before posting steve lee university of western ontario london canada lee obelix gaul csd uwo ca actually steve i think he was refering to the leafs and when they can be expected to hit the greens acadia axemen ciau champions donald smith dragon acadiau ca
rec.sport.hockey	re bay area media wings leafs coverage yeah the news is true the leafs lost to the wings wish i could say i d seen the whole game but my husband wanted to watch young guns ii on another channel sometime between the first time i tuned in and d saw the leafs tie and the next time i tuned in and heard the score was something happened please no woofing from red wings fans they re my third favourite team and if they make it past the leafs i ll wish them luck as for potvin well it was his fist playoff game susan carroll clark who likes anyone doug gilmour plays for
rec.sport.hockey	re sharks kingston fired in article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes in article apr leland stanford edu terry garfield stanford edu terry wong writes i think that jack ferreira s firing eventually led to kingston s firing you mention consistency of vision i think the sharks lost that with the loss of ferreira there has never been a headed g m that has ever worked you need one person making the personnel decisions at the top not management by committee the conventional wisdom from around the league is that ferreira would have made the moves that would have fielded a better product on the ice how exactly would ferreira accomplished this the three headed gm ship has taken a lot of heat but nobody s explained how things would have been any different had ferreira still been there would ferreira have made more trades who would have he had traded would he have made fewer trades who should not have been traded i think the three headed gm s guiding principle was to keep veterans in favor of youngsters only if they offered a significant advantage at the end of last season the contracts of several veterans with somewhat maginal contributions fenton bozek anderson and a couple others i can t remember were bought out the idea was that youngsters could play almost as well and had the potential to improve where these older guys did not and they traded mullen because he wanted to go not because he wasn t good enough but i think they were a bit too optimistic in thinking they could make up for his contributions an example from this season skriko was brought in on a trial basis but not kept because of his age i thought he was a decent contributor worth keeping around the youth movement has its advantages look at gaudreau who might still be in kc if more veterans had been kept around but you have to find the right balance steve cole steve sep stanford edu apple sep steve department of geophysics stanford university stanford ca
rec.sport.hockey	re tie breaker isles and devils dir in article apr ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca roger maynard writes in lrw f rpi edu wangr vccsouth its rpi edu rex wang writes i might not be great in math but tell me how can two teams ahve the same points with different record man retard can t believe people actually put win as first in a tie breaker well i don t see any smileys here i am trying to figure out if the poster is a dog or a wordprocessor couldn t be neither both are smarter than this i might not be great in math cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time roger lecture someone on not using smileys what sweet hipocracy koz lets go caps
rec.sport.hockey	usenet playoff hockey pool game standings here are the standings after game of each of the divisional semi finals hey look who s i ll try to post the standings after each game i e every two days i managed to recover the email lost up to saturday night so all i m missing is mail that arrived between early saturday morning and sunday afternoon many people re sent their teams so you may have received two replies back from me if your team name is not on this list please resend your team to me and i ll see what i can do any kind of proof you sent it on the weekend will help your case seriously this is only a fun pool and i trust each person to be honest again sorry for any inconvenience and i hope the pool is still fun for you andrew usenet hockey playoff draft standings posn team pts rem last posn sneddon scorers the borg dave wessels bruce s rented mules great expectations hurricane andrew jerky boys homesick hawaiian give you money monday einstien s punk band zipper heads tapio repo detroit homeboy the dead ducks mike burger test department team elvis craig team skate or die debbie bowles fuzzfaces galore suds the campi machine zachmans wingers sean forbes threepeat flamming senators team awesome a p bury purdue ricks pens gb flyers seppo kemppainen paige faults weenies chris roney rednecks from hockey hell dog s hog s mind sweepers teem kanada northern lights fugazi delaware destroyers mopar muscle men lance hill the boston bruins fa garryola oakville brothers sam his dogs cluster buster jan stein frank s little wankers milton keynes kings the promise land rangers of destiny new zealand leafs loaded weapons bloom county all stars robarts research rebels tiger chung lees goddess of fermentation make beliefs rob del mundo heikki salmi the underwriters muller n walker controversy warriors bjorkloven norway killerwhales holsteins sfb buffalo soldiers lemon pepper grizzly bears frack attack houdini s magicians the rangers of rangers blow dave hiebert yan loke canadian gladiators littlest giants alf s all stars the ice kickers beer makes me an expert force mr creosote the goobmeister the mulberry maulers rev s rebels bosse zippety doodah kramer george and jerry dehradun maawalis sludge j s rock em sock ems brians bloodletters grant marven arctic circles all the kane s men trevor s triumph mark and steve dreaming again goaldingers bjoern leaguen habs playing golf shigella new jersey rob steves superstars big bay bombers doug bowles neural netters lippe lets go pandas les raisins daves knee jerk picks monica loke jason team reneb schott shooters gilles carmel lewey s lakers smithw east city jokers daryl turner doug mraz skriko wolves icemachine lamp lighters on thin ice joe s a crak head samuel lau calgary alberta comfortably numb reksa fans of oulu gail hiebert gee man but wait theres more marcs maulers danielle leblanc bobby schmautz fan club ottawa bearcats boops bets triple x timo ojala flying pigs the eradicators van isle colonists commitments bure s blur great scott weasels tequila shooters whiters frasses faceplants high stickers mak paranjape lord stanley s favourites san jose mahi mahi oz e i s mann mariners jfz dream team stacey ross louisiana psycho killers la coupe stainless fighting amish evan pritchard stanias stars pens dynasty oceanweavers go go gagit myllypuro hedgehogs arm hammer legzryx chapman chaps dean martin cherry bombers sluggo s hosers anson mak knights on a power play canuck force butt ends beam team jukurit chapman sticks ken de cruyenaere gax goons tampere salami sparky s select hillside raiders eldoret elephants jane s world the alarmers rolaids required chip n dale brian bergman killer kings montys nords arsenal maple leafs martin s gag equipe du jour lisa s luggers andrew scott andrew idacom hp com hp idacom telecom operation ext during the roman era was considered old
rec.sport.hockey	re canada sweden at the world champioships in article apr venus cc hollandc pe ca white venus cc hollandc pe ca take me baby writes today at the world championships in munich canada scored an impressive victory over the defending world champs sweden i believe that was rod brind amour scored at of the third kevin white white venus cc hollandc pe ca p allen larsen university of victoria plarsen sanjuan uvic ca
rec.sport.hockey	minnesota scene to those who are wondering what is happening in minnesota from what i have seen in the local news tv and newspaper various people in the area are trying to get a new hockey team a columnist for the st paul pioneer press wrote an article giving the inside scoop on the issue there are three local sites competing for a team and three possible candiates to move to the twin cities first the sites target center civic center st paul and yes even the met center the columnist was pretty confident that minnesota will get a team and that the target center will ultimately win out he argued however that the competition from the other two sites will delay the process considerably without the inter site competition the columnist sorry i can t remember his name believes that minnesota would have a team by the season also because of the situation with the timberwolves things will be delayed until unless the city of minneapolis takes over the target center however they are unlikely to do so until the met center is destroyed because the city will lose money if there is competition from the met for conventions and short term events even with hockey at target to add to this mess a study to months is going to be conducted on the future viability of the met center which obviously delays the process even further i hope that the study is cancelled which will have the effect of knocking the met center out of the running and perhaps encouraging minneapolis to take over the target center sooner the city would be be even more encourged if the wrecking ball is taken to the met which may happen regarding possible candidates the three teams are hartford tampa bay and new jersey i would prefer the devils minnesota ice demons although the lightning may have potential although it hasn t been announced yet it looks like neutral site games will be played at the target center next year apparently the devils are interested in playing in as many of those six games as possible and i wouldn t be surprised to see hartford and tampa show up there either so minnesota may end up getting another team but it may take a few years go sabres robert andolina former buffalonian living in minneapolis randolin polisci umn edu
rec.sport.hockey	re aargh great hockey coverage devils robbie po rap psuvm psu edu writes gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare says i mean that the original poster was looking for a devils victory on the tape delay and it didn t happen in game i was the original poster and it was just a complaint about the coverage meaningless yankee game before playoff devils game oh i apologize then i misinterpreted you no problem no offence taken of all the teams in the patrick i least dislike the devils it is sad just as a lover of the sport that this team can be in the metro new york area for over a decade and still exist as just a non entity how is espn s coverage anyways i think it starts tonight we re getting the sabres bruins as the replacement game and probably so are you while the devils penguins game is played on scny and the islanders caps are the overflow game on the sca scny plus if the sabres bruins ends early then we ll go to the devils penguins game assuming that espn follows their previous patterns we got the last minute of the islanders rangers and all of the overtime two weeks ago espn s coverage started last night by accident but as one or more other writers have pointed out they could ve gone to wild hog wrestling for the evening instead gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
rec.sport.hockey	re schedule mre teal eng sun com mike eisler writes gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes i can t believe that espn is making sportschannel america look good but only in ny nj philadelphia and chicago everywhere else the only reason sportschannel was available was for local baseball broadcasts yes a point well taken however even in areas that finally got some games there s something nagging in the back of your skull when the network that has the national rights in its pocket says on its sports news there s an awesome overtime going on in quebec city and we ll try to get you an update through the show when you know that it s on a satellite s feedhorn somewhere up there if people want hockey on tv they should watch hockey on tv i bet the ratings for hockey on sunday on abc went into the toilet from today s times abc got great ratings in chicago and st louis a and the kings flames got a on the west coast but only a in metro new york i e the devils squandered their newfound support from a year ago when they played the rangers in comparison seniors golf did better next week there will be far fewer abc affiliates with hockey i fear that the overall national numbers will not be so great i can t tell if abc did any advance marketing or not cos i don t watch much tv the nhl should have made sure that it was solid on cable before going on the air even espn could ve sold second rights to third party systems i e non sportschannel since they are not making any extra money by sitting on the games hockey fans will not necessarily be watching pre season beach volleyball if playoffs games aren t being shown somewhere gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
rec.sport.hockey	s i am in need of all of the players wearing in the nhl i know now only of one ray borque for the bruins any help would be greatly appreciated thanx the logistician reigns supreme go blue go tigers go pistons go lions go red wings ching wpi wpi edu
rec.sport.hockey	re thumbs up to espn i agree it was great for the espn people to show the detroit game my roommate just about sh t when they threw the octopus on the ice thanks for explaining the significance of that btw the only problem i had was when they blotted out the local commentators with the baseball ads and music especially when the wings player hit the rut and went into the boards injuring his shoulder and they blotted out the injury report other then that hats off to espn now if they ll only make a habit of this yeah right baseball seasons started zzzzzz koz lets go caps
rec.sport.hockey	re atlanta hockey hell dir someone give sportchannel a call or maybe ted turner wasn t usa network covering the playoffs years ago jim g oh to be back in the good old days when i lived in florida florida for petes sake and could watch hockey every night as espn and usa alternated coverage nights oh well i guess it would be too simple for the home office to look back into their past to solve a problem in the present of course i shouldn t complain at least i m getting to watch the playoffs for a change hooray now if the espn schedulers will realise there are other teams except pittsberg in the patrick sounds like a dr suess book koz lets go caps
rec.sport.hockey	re if you were pat burns in article c suh q tsegw tse com mhembruc tsegw tse com mattias hembruch writes hell is anderson anderson can in days past get under peoples skin put a little more bluntly anderson has to be an asshole he used to be good at it we need him now agreed anderson was nowhere last night well what do you expect burns was playing him with krushelnyski and baumgartner anderson is a finisher unless you play him with someone to can get him the puck in a finishing position he ain t going to do much scoring gerald
rec.sport.hockey	hockey coverage this is a general question for us readers how extensive is the playoff coverage down there in canada it is almost impossible not to watch a series on tv ie the only two series i have not had an opportunity to watch this year are wash nyi and chi stl the latter because i m in the wrong time zone we in canada are basically swamped with coverage and i wonder how many series games are televised nationally or even locally in the us and how much precedence they take over say local news if the games go into double ot email me so as not to waste bandwidth please my news feed is kind of slow anyways l tr
rec.sport.hockey	probert and wendall game two of the detroit toronto series will be a rougher game i believe that clark will be coming out hitting on all cylindars i believe that probert will take exception to this and a fight between clark and probert will result i know this sounds kind of ridiculous but i know game two toronto will come out hitting any takers on this issue
rec.sport.hockey	hey what about teh cannucks hi all due to living in the bay area i as unable to see vancouver s victory over the jets last night i know the score but that rarely describes the game could someone please post a brief sonapsis sp of waht happened how well did each team play were the cannucks deserving of the victory also could some kind soul please email me the end of season individual player stats greg vancouver for the cup in a virtual reality
rec.sport.hockey	re if you were pat burns jason cockroft jake rambler eng sun com wrote what are the leafs to do i am a leaf supporter and i say the leafs are going down in four unless there is nothing short of a miracle or a stroke of genenius hits root for another team andreychuck and borchevsky have no business playing against the wings they are too small the key to any leafs success will have to be clark he is the only centre who can have andreychuk is not small slow and sloth like maybe but he is about and that is not what i would consider as small as an aside the big andreychunk as i call him has been known to disappear come playoff time this was one of his main problems when playing for buffalo go leafs go sabres dave blaszyk e mail dvb snowmass ssd kodak com mail eastman kodak d v b c plant bldg mc rochester new york
rec.sport.hockey	re how to beat the pens you can t but good luck trying jim
rec.sport.hockey	re how to beat pittsburgh in article apr guvax acc georgetown edu apanjabi guvax acc georgetown edu writes in article afnkovk uhb rdtj andrew cmu edu robert angelo pleshar rp andrew cmu edu writes kfnjyea uh i vmus andrew cmu edu nntp posting host po andrew cmu edu in reply to kfnjyea uh i vmus andrew cmu edu from anna matyas now if we could just clone chelios s personality and transplant it into all of the defensemen on the islanders capitals and devils gerald in other words you want to turn them all into assholes so they will spend lots of time in the penalty box and get lots of misconducts and this comes from a chelios fan yeah and also be second in the team in scoring and play about minutes a game and play on the power play and kill penalties and be the best defenseman in the league i d take a whole team of chelioses if i could that way when one got a penalty the others could kill it ralph how to beat pittsburgh i mario lemieux a death too much kimo slash to skull ask the rangers slashing his wrist ii jaromir jagr a deportation send him back to whatever commie country he s from tell him that bill clinton is going too iii kevin stevens a fighting call bob probert call tie domi call my grandmother she d kick his ass since everybody wants to see pittsburgh players not playing the stanley cup would be devaluated iskander ayari email iskander ayari loria fr ou ayari loria fr
rec.sport.hockey	re smiths birthday goal was leafs go all the way in article c wty u mcs anl gov mwm aps anl gov michael w mcdowell writes in article kl undergrad math uwaterloo ca kwk chow descartes uwaterloo ca kevin c writes thanks for the goals by steve smith i don t see why more people don t blame grant fuhr for the goal that smith put in his own net it s common to play the puck back to your own goalie when deep in your own end and under little or no pressure from the offensive team if fuhr had been in position the puck would have never crossed the line from this account it doesn t sound like you even saw the goal mike smith came out from behind his own net and fired a breakout pass that hit fuhr in the back of the leg fuhr was backing up at the time and never saw what happened the puck went straight off fuhr s leg and into the net fuhr never had a chance there was no play back to the goaltender in fact perry berezan of calgary had just dumped it in and smith was retrieving it it was unfortunate that it happened smith is a nice guy and was only a rookie at the time and on his birthday too but all the blame lies with him starting in pee wee coaches tell players never to make a cross ice pass in front of their own net too much chance of having it intercepted or hitting the goaltender or whatever and to the people who say that smith cost the oilers the series i can only say that he certainly didn t cause the team to lose the other three games there was no reason for a powerhouse team like edmonton to be tied late in the third period of the th game of the second round everybody on the team has to take responsibility for them even being in that situation alan
rec.sport.hockey	re potvin s new goalie mask in article allan swanlake allan cs ualberta ca allan sullivan writes slegge kean ucs mun ca writes i was wtahcing right guard hockey week on tsn yesterday and they had a feature on this guy that does a lot most of the masks for nhl goalies they talked about how they are made what they are made of and the designs that are put on them etc the best one of all was one he never talked about he just held it up it has the current leafs crest on the chin and an awesome looking black panther on the forehead it has to be a new mask for felix potvin but he never said whose it was are you sure this program was current i know that grant fuhr had a black panther on the forehead of his mask when he played with the leafs it would seem logical that the mask is potvins his nickname is the cat which would go a long ways towards explaining the panther of course it could be an old story and the mask is fuhrs too alan
rec.sport.hockey	help help help does anyone have the nhl standings for march th i need them immediately for a project please post or email thanks andy hillery school of architecture state university of new york at buffalo
rec.sport.hockey	re smiths birthday goal was leafs go all the way in article c juna vh cpsc ucalgary ca layfield cpsc ucalgary ca colin layfield writes in article c wty u mcs anl gov mwm aps anl gov writes in article kl undergrad math uwaterloo ca kwk chow descartes uwaterloo ca kevin c writes thanks for the goals by steve smith i don t see why more people don t blame grant fuhr for the goal that smith put in his own net it s common to play the puck back to your own goalie when deep in your own end and under little or no pressure from the offensive team if fuhr had been in position the puck would have never crossed the line mike mcdowell i have to disagree with you on this one it is anything but common in the or years i have been watching hockey i have never seen this happen ever i am not sure what league you have been watching anyone else agree with this yes colin i have to agree with you here i ve put the puck in my own net the same way smith did only once mind you and it was definitely my fault it is not a common play to play the puck the way that smith did luckily for me when i did it it was only a scrimmage craig
rec.sport.hockey	blues into playoffs beat tb by dave luecking of the post dispatch staff at thursday night the scoreboard watchers at the arena began to cheer their cheer quickly turned into a roar and finally the sellout crowd of rose as one to rock the old barn at oakland avenue in a salute to the playoff bound blues the scoreboard had just flashed the news from detroit red wings stars with the north stars loss the blues officially clinched fourth place and the final playoff spot in the norris division good thing because the blues quit playing they held a lead over tampa bay when the detroit minnesota final appeared with minutes remaining in the second period they promptly went to sleep and barely held on for a victory that nearly slipped away at the buzzer tampa s bob beers tipped in a pass from shawn chambers but officiating supervisor john d amico and video goal judge rich schweigler ruled that the shot had gone into the net after time had expired i m glad i didn t see it go in at the end blues coach bob berry said if the goal had counted he d have been more upset than he was by the blues disappearance in the final minutes holding on for the victory and making the playoffs tempered berry s anger it wasn t pretty at the end he said we played great minutes as good as we played all year it slipped away at the end it shouldn t have but it did still the blues won prompting another ovation from the crowd at game s end despite their shoddy effort in the third period and all the turmoil this season the blues still made the playoffs they ll meet the chicago blackhawks in a best of seven norris division semifinal beginning at noon sunday at chicago stadium the blues finished the regular season with a record of for points their fourth consecutive plus season minnesota finished three points behind in fifth place with a record of for points tampa bay which played spoiler last week by tying the blues at tampa ended its first season with a record of for points the poor finish cast an unnecessary shadow over what should have been a joyous blues locker room instead the mood was one of relief and some disappointment it s a shame we let down said kevin miller one of three blues to score two goals brendan shanahan and bob bassen were the others there was no need for a letdown if we d have kept working it would have ended and everyone would be happy instead a lot of players were happy just to make the playoffs we won and that s all that matters said brett hull scoreless and minus for the night once we got up it was really tough to play some players didn t have a problem just because the score was announced our line didn t quit said rich sutter who played with bassen and miller we still had a game to play you can t allow five goals like we did that s not right it was disappointing to see what was going on bassen was almost frantic on the bench because of the blues effort somehow he missed the announcement of minnesota s loss i didn t know it was final he said i was kind of looking around on the bench i didn t realize it was a final for some reason we re in the playoffs and that s great but it s a little disappointing to play like we did at the end the letdown was precisely the reason that berry had instructed the scoreboard operators to keep the minnesota detroit score off of the board the score showed until it first popped up with detroit leading in the third period the blues already led at the time i told them i didn t want to see the score i didn t want to know the score berry said i felt we had to win the game and that s the approach we took if minnesota took a lead berry feared the pressure of having to win might bother the blues if detroit led he worried the blues might quit until the announcement the blues played splendidly shanahan got the crowd going at of the first period scoring his th of the season then miller and bassen took charge late in the period with the teams playing four on four miller broke in on left wing deked defenseman roman hamrlik and beat former blues goalie pat jablonski with the rebound of his own shot with seconds remaining in the period then just seconds later bassen rifled a long slap shot past jablonski after defenseman rick zombo intercepted a tampa pass in the neutral zone bassen made it just seconds into the second period scoring on the rebound of bret hedican s shot the goal gave him his first two goal game of the season and reminded him of a special friend last year bassen befriended young oliver mulvihill who died of a rare form of cancer at age on feb i was thinking of my buddy oliver bassen said he s in heaven now and i know he was watching i know he s happy miller increased the blues lead to on a break away goal set up by zombo at then steve maltais broke curtis joseph s shutout just seconds later making it less than a minute after the north stars final was announced tim bergland scored and cut the lead to but shanahan scored his st converting a pass from nelson emerson with seconds remaining in the second period then it was all lightning adam creighton scored seconds into the third period prompting berry to rest the overworked joseph guy hebert allowed goals to shawn chambers and danton cole in a span of midway through the third period the goals by chambers and cole made shanahan s second goal stand up as the winner we were in there shanahan said the game was over we were in a l l e z l e s b l u e s joe ashkar contact for the blues saint louis jca cec wustl edu blues
rec.sport.hockey	nhl results for games played nhl results for games played standings patrick adams norris smythe tm w l t pt tm w l t pt tm w l t pt tm w l t pt xpit xbos xchi xvan ywas yque ydet ycal ynj ymon ytor yla ynyi ybuf stl ywin phl har min edm nyr ott tb sj x clinched division title y clinched playoff berth boston bruins ottawa senators st period bos roberts juneau bos wiemer juneau oates nd period bos neely juneau murphy bos hughes richer kimble ott archibald rumble lamb rd period ott boschman kudelski powerplay opportunities bruins of senators of shots on goal bruins senators boston bruins moog shots saves blue second shots saves ottawa senators sidorkiewicz shots saves berthiaume third shots saves att washington capitals new york rangers st period none nd period none rd period was bondra pivonka cavallini was bondra cote pivonka powerplay opportunities capitals of rangers of shots on goal capitals rangers washington capitals tabaracci shots saves new york rangers richter shots saves att new york islanders hartford whalers st period nyi ferraro malakhov king nyi hogue thomas turgeon har yake poulin har yake nylander poulin nd period har verbeek cassels weinrich pp nyi thomas king ferraro rd period har burt sanderson cassels nyi malakhov hogue overtime har janssens poulin powerplay opportunities islanders of whalers of shots on goal islanders whalers new york islanders fitzpatrick shots saves hartford whalers lenaduzzi shots saves att pittsburgh penguins new jersey devils st period pit daniels needham tippett njd c lemieux semak driver pit k stevens tocchet murphy pp njd zelepukin driver niedermayer nd period pit m lemieux stevens tocchet njd semak c lemieux zelepukin pit mceachern jagr barrasso njd s stevens guerin pellerin pit m lemieux sh njd richer nicholls njd c lemieux semak zelepukin rd period pit mullen jagr m lemieux overtime none powerplay opportunities penguins of devils of shots on goal penguins devils pittsburgh penguins barrasso shots saves new jersey devils billington shots saves att spike
rec.sport.hockey	re smiths birthday goal was leafs go all the way in article c wty u mcs anl gov mwm aps anl gov writes in article kl undergrad math uwaterloo ca kwk chow descartes uwaterloo ca kevin c writes thanks for the goals by steve smith i don t see why more people don t blame grant fuhr for the goal that smith put in his own net it s common to play the puck back to your own goalie when deep in your own end and under little or no pressure from the offensive team if fuhr had been in position the puck would have never crossed the line mike mcdowell i have to disagree with you on this one it is anything but common in the or years i have been watching hockey i have never seen this happen ever i am not sure what league you have been watching anyone else agree with this colin layfield religion and sex are power plays manipulate the people for the money they pay the university of calgary selling skin selling god computer science the numbers look the same on their credit cards layfield cpsc ucalgary ca queensryche
rec.sport.hockey	re european expansion and our f cked system how long would they support teams that are run on ranger based corporate thinking i use the term lightly we don t need a good product because these duffuses in nyc would fill the arena for ottawa s record every year haha sorry had ta say it look how long the maple leafs and nordiques used similar logic not that they fielded bad teams solely to field bad teams but the maple leafs and a certain dead man who was in charge were one of the cheapest teams in the history of the sport guess what they were immensely popular at the gate the nordiques have also done well for a team that had missed the playoffs so many years in a row look at british or any european soccer as an example they never have fan problems ha such humor they have major fan problems namely that on occasion some of them don t make it home from the match the soccer fans tend to be fanatical much like the montreal fans who firebomb the players and coaches houses when they play pathetically jpc john p curcio go bruins philips laboratories jpc philabs philips com scarborough road briarcliff manor ny
rec.sport.hockey	re tv schedule for next week in article apr yuma acns colostate edu mmb lamar colostate edu michael burger writes united states tv schedule april devils islanders at pittsburgh est abc to eastern time zone april st louis at chicago cdt abc to cent mou time zones april los angeles at calgary pdt abc to pacific time zone april devils islanders at pittsburgh espn april tba espn april tba espn does anyone know if there will be alternate games in cities where local broadcast rights are being protected i d really love to see the bruins a couple times and with this pro patrick bias shown by espn something tells me that i will have to wait until the conference finals to see them jpc john p curcio go bruins philips laboratories jpc philabs philips com scarborough road briarcliff manor ny
rec.sport.hockey	re the hawks will return to the finals in article qk k itg uxa ecn bgu edu cubrj uxa ecn bgu edu brian johnson writes well now that the hawks have won the division the road is a little easier for the playoffs let toronto and detroit beat the hell out of each other while chicago sweeps st louis that just makes it easier in the second round with all the rest they will get and tor det getting none for the conf champ they will have a hard time versus the division but that div will be pretty battered also so the advantage goes to the hawks again then bring pitt and sure the hawks will probably lose but its better to get that far and lose than to not go brian hopefully a miracle o k not quite a miracle but close will occur and pittsburgh will be elminated prior to the finals if they make it again they will probably keep the cup if they don t it s the hawks turn go blackhawks congrats to jeremy roenick for being only the nd hawks player to post back to back goal seasons scott
rec.sport.hockey	re the hawks will return to the finals in article qk k itg uxa ecn bgu edu cubrj uxa ecn bgu edu brian johnson writes well now that the hawks have won the division the road is a little easier for the playoffs let toronto and detroit beat the hell out of each other while chicago sweeps st louis that just makes it easier in brian don t be so sure the blues played the hawks pretty well this season and won twice at the stadium the blues will give the hawks a hard time this series is one of the best first round matchups could go either way the hawks will probably prevail in seven games a l l e z l e s b l u e s joe ashkar contact for the blues saint louis jca cec wustl edu blues
rec.sport.hockey	nhl summary parse results for games played thur april philadelphia buffalo first period philadelphia recchi galley lindros second period philadelphia hawgood dineen eklund pp philadelphia dineen mcgill sh buffalo barnaby hawerchuk smehlik pp buffalo wood lafontaine ledyard pp buffalo mogilny hawerchuk carney pp third period philadelphia eklund dineen beranek buffalo mogilny errey lafontaine philadelphia dineen brind amour pp philadelphia dineen brind amour galley sh philadelphia acton dineen brind amour philadelphia power play special goals pp sh total scorer g a pts acton beranek brind amour dineen eklund galley hawgood lindros mcgill recchi buffalo power play scorer g a pts barnaby carney errey hawerchuk lafontaine ledyard mogilny smehlik wood minnesota detroit first period minnesota mcphee ludwig second period minnesota dahlen courtnall gagner pp detroit drake howe ogrodnick detroit ysebaert lidstrom howe pp third period detroit ciccarelli coffey chiasson pp detroit kennedy burr probert detroit yzerman ciccarelli gallant minnesota dahlen courtnall gagner detroit power play scorer g a pts burr chiasson ciccarelli coffey drake gallant howe kennedy lidstrom ogrodnick probert ysebaert yzerman minnesota power play scorer g a pts courtnall dahlen gagner ludwig mcphee edmonton winnipeg first period winnipeg shannon steen davydov pp second period winnipeg selanne olausson winnipeg zhamnov selanne third period no scoring winnipeg power play scorer g a pts davydov olausson selanne shannon steen zhamnov edmonton power play no scoring toronto chicago first period toronto baumgartner unassisted second period chicago roenick murphy chelios toronto andreychuk mironov lefebvre chicago murphy roenick chelios pp third period chicago matteau unassisted error power play goal mismatch assuming calc value error team toronto calc read chicago power play scorer g a pts chelios matteau murphy roenick toronto power play scorer g a pts andreychuk baumgartner lefebvre mironov first period st louis shanahan brown felsner st louis miller bassen brown st louis bassen zombo second period st louis bassen hedican miller st louis miller zombo hedican tampa bay maltais hamrlik tampa bay bergland hervey gilhen st louis shanahan emerson third period tampa bay creighton bergland bergevin tampa bay chambers zamuner cole tampa bay cole beers bradley st louis power play scorer g a pts bassen brown emerson felsner hedican miller shanahan zombo tampa bay power play scorer g a pts beers bergevin bergland bradley chambers cole creighton gilhen hamrlik hervey maltais zamuner san jose calgary first period no scoring second period san jose garpenlov odgers gaudreau pp calgary nieuwendyk macinnis suter pp calgary ranheim otto suter calgary yawney nieuwendyk roberts calgary berube paslawski skrudland third period san jose wood odgers kisio calgary reichel unassisted calgary roberts musil paslawski pp san jose kisio unassisted calgary paslawski ashton stern calgary power play scorer g a pts ashton berube macinnis musil nieuwendyk otto paslawski ranheim reichel roberts skrudland stern suter yawney san jose power play scorer g a pts garpenlov gaudreau kisio odgers wood vancouver los angeles first period los angeles robitaille gretzky sandstrom vancouver babych craven nedved pp los angeles sandstrom gretzky robitaille second period vancouver linden ronning courtnall pp vancouver ward hunter nedved los angeles gretzky sandstrom robitaille los angeles zhitnik kurri robitaille pp los angeles millen hardy pp third period vancouver ronning dirk vancouver ronning courtnall linden pp vancouver linden courtnall ronning los angeles donnelly millen granato pp vancouver courtnall ronning ratushny vancouver ronning linden diduck en vancouver power play special goals pp en total scorer g a pts babych courtnall craven diduck dirk hunter linden nedved ratushny ronning ward los angeles power play scorer g a pts donnelly granato gretzky hardy kurri millen robitaille sandstrom zhitnik
rec.sport.hockey	goalie mask update here are the results after three days of voting remember pts for st for nd and for rd also you can still turn in votes and if the guy isn t a regular goalie or he is retired please include the team thanks for your time and keep on sending in those votes player team pts votes brian hayward san jose andy moog boston curtis joseph st louis ed belfour chicago gerry cheevers boston retired manon rheaume atlanta ihl ron hextall quebec don beaupre washington others receiving vote artus irbe sj tim cheveldae det clint malarchuck buf sd ihl grant fuhr buf rick wamsley tor ret jon casey minn john vanbiesbrouck nyr ken dryden mon ret bob essensa win mike vernon cal glenn healy nyi tommy soderstron ray leblanc usa go skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite go braves an effect on you mike patton faith no more go hornets go capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd a prism gatech edu
rec.sport.hockey	ahl calder cup playoff schedule and results calder cup playoff schedule and results home team in caps if necesary first round springfield indians vs providence bruins gm springfield providence gm springfield providence gm providence at springfield cd islanders vs adirondack red wings gm last night cdi at adirondack gm cdi at adirondack gm adirondack at cdi gm adirondack at cdi gm cdi at adirondack gm adirondack at cdi gm cdi at adirondack baltimore skipjacks at binghamton rangers gm baltimore at binghamton gm baltimore at binghamton gm binghamton at baltimore gm binghamton at baltimore gm baltimore at binghamton gm binghmaton at baltimore gm baltimore at binghamton utica devils vs rochester americans gm utica at rochester gm utica at rochester gm rochester at utica gm rochester at utica gm utica at rochester gm rochester at utica gm utica at rochester moncton hawks vs st john s maple leafs gm st john s moncton gm moncton vs st john s at halifax gm st john s at moncton cape breton oilers vs fredericton canadiens gm fredericton cape breton ot gm cape breton at fredericton unfortunately the newspaper didnt list complete playoff skeds for series that already began also the paper has not listed final standings so their posting might be delayed until early next week hockey news bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl and ecac contact for rec sport hockey go usa hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey ny division ii state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu congrats to the boston bruins adams division champions phoenix suns pacific division champions
rec.sport.hockey	re bridgman is out slacelle gandalf ca stephane lacelle writes the ottwawa senators fired mel bridgman at pm today randy sexton is gonna replace him trashy move from a trashy organization after the front office stated that nobody would lose their job over the sens poor performance bridgeman is gone within hours of the teams final game yes i know he screwed up letting the king s grab loach sexton s qualifications aside from being cheap he played some us college hockey he s pals with club president bruce firestone just the kind of experience you need when trying to build an expansion franchise he ll probably be in the hall of fame next year this continues a tradition of front office gaffs paul anka and the arena deal denis potvin and the gm postion mike bossy and the scoring coach how do people in ottawa feel about how the club is being run stephane lacelle brian down bdown vis toronto edu
rec.sport.hockey	goalies i ve heard that you can score on belfour by shooting high because he goes down a lot and on potvin by shooting high on him and then getting the rebound in because he plays so deep in the net any truth to these brad a wings fan but no predictions
rec.sport.hockey	re stop predicting in apr ncsu edu cdkaupan eos ncsu edu carl david kaupang writes it is really annoying to see all of these predictions on the net who really cares who you think will win please stop with the predictions we all know the caps are going to win the cup so let it go at that david kaupang cdkaupan eos ncsu edu yeah but first they have to deal with the devils who ve had their number all year i m not saying the caps aren t a good team they ve been a thorn on the habs side for the past years just that they won t get past nj paul yatrou yatrou inrs telecom uquebec ca running my pool today wish me luck
rec.sport.hockey	re truly a sad day for hockey farewell minnesota fans get stuffed dallas stars as the north stars fade to black i hope that minneapolis st paul are not long without an nhl team it just seems right that the hotbed of amateur hockey in the usa should have an nhl team as well the loss of the team is certainly not the fault of the fans though the start of the season made it look real bad for a while i wish now that i kept the north stars cap i bought at maple leaf gardens the morning after they eliminated montreal in i got it to spite the montreal fans in the small town where i grew up what a glorious season that was for the north stars dwarf w jim jordan i don t mean to tell you how to live dwarf x gate bnr ca internet your life that s what the tv s for i work for bnr i do not speak for it but if i didn t believe in jesus i d be going to hell peter heath
rec.sport.hockey	re goalie mask update in article hydra gatech edu gtd a prism gatech edu hrivnak writes here are the results after three days of voting remember pts for st for nd and for rd also you can still turn in votes and if the guy isn t a regular goalie or he is retired please include the team thanks for your time and keep on sending in those votes glenn healy nyi tommy soderstron ray leblanc usa soderstrom plays with philly but he doesn t have a moulded mask he s got the helmet and cage variety in white or at least that s what he wore thirteen hours ago valerie hammerl some days i have to remind him he s not hammerl acsu buffalo edu mario lemieux herb brooks on claude acscvjh ubms cc buffalo edu lemieux top scorer for the devils but v pwwpz ubvms cc buffalo edu known for taking dumb penalties
rec.sport.hockey	re ahl season in review off ice stuff in article apr news clarkson edu farenebt craft camp clarkson edu droopy writes senators sold stuff deleted the senators are currently in serious negotiations with charlottetown new brunswick and are expected to move there it has been announced that the senators will move their ahl franchise to charlottetown p e i prince edward island not new brunswick charlie cook charlie calvin cs unb ca
rec.sport.hockey	hot cold streaks ok guys i need a list of the teams who have been hot or cold during the last games doesn t need to be accurate a rough guess will do i m about to enter a playoff pool and i want to know who is hot going into the playoffs don t need to mention pittsburgh they can t get any hotter than they are now p s i need this by sunday yvon lavoie
rec.sport.hockey	ahl playoff results game s of adirondack cdi adirondack leads series first round springfield indians vs providence bruins gm springfield providence gm springfield providence gm providence at springfield gm providence at springfield gm springfield at providence gm providence at springfield gm springfield at providence cd islanders vs adirondack red wings gm adirondack cdi gm cdi at adirondack gm adirondack at cdi gm adirondack at cdi gm cdi at adirondack gm adirondack at cdi gm cdi at adirondack baltimore skipjacks at binghamton rangers gm baltimore at binghamton gm baltimore at binghamton gm binghamton at baltimore gm binghamton at baltimore gm baltimore at binghamton gm binghmaton at baltimore gm baltimore at binghamton utica devils vs rochester americans gm utica at rochester gm utica at rochester gm rochester at utica gm rochester at utica gm utica at rochester gm rochester at utica gm utica at rochester moncton hawks vs st john s maple leafs gm st john s moncton gm moncton vs st john s at halifax gm st john s at moncton gm st john s at moncton gm moncton vs st john s at halifax gm st john s at moncton gm moncton vs st john s at halifax cape breton oilers vs fredericton canadiens gm fredericton cape breton ot gm cape breton at fredericton gm fredericton at cape breton gm fredericton at cape breton gm cape breton at fredericton gm fredericton at cape breton gm cape breton at fredericton bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl and ecac contact for rec sport hockey go usa hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey ny division ii state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu congrats to the boston bruins adams division champions phoenix suns pacific division champions
rec.sport.hockey	re plus minus stat in article blue cis pitt edu jrmst pitt edu joseph r mcdonald writes jagr has a higher but francis has had more points and take it from an informed observer ronnie francis has had a much better season than jaromir jagr this is not to take anything away from jaro who had a decent year although it didn t live up to the expectations of some bowman tended to overplay francis at times because he is a bowman style player he plays hard at all times doesn t disregard his defensive responsibilities and is a good leader bowman rewarded him be increasing his ice time jagr can be very arrogant and juvenile and display a me first attitude this rubbed bowman the wrong way and caused him to lose some ice time throughout the year francis consistently recieved more ice time than jagr althouhg i have never seen stats on this subject i am pretty sure that jagr had more points per minute played that francis when you add to that jagr s better rating i think it becomes evident that jagr had a better season not that francis had a bad one gregmeister
rec.sport.hockey	re goalie masks in article netnews upenn edu kkeller mail sas upenn edu keith keller writes my vote goes to john vanbiesbrouck his mask has a skyline of new york city and on the sides there are a bunch of bees beezer it looks really sharp funny you should mention this one time on hnic don cherry pointed out vanbiesbrouck s mask he hated it i think he said something to the effect of you see he was great last year now he goes out and gets that dopey mask and he can t stop a beachball you may or may not take cherry seriously at all but i cracked up when i heard it i think ed belfour has the current best mask in the nhl btw i also like moog s and i ll give fuhr s new one an honourable mention although i haven t seen it closely yet it looked good from a distance what s also neat is chevaldae s in detroit they call him chevy so he has two checkered flags painted at the top as in an auto race
rec.sport.hockey	re ulf and all layfield cpsc ucalgary ca colin layfield writes in article pdlksinnmq giraffe zoo cs yale edu wuziyun suned cs yale edu you wanna know writes let me give my two cents worth in this whole thing i am very sick of pittsburg fans and they are my second favorite team talk about how why can t bruins forget about ulf samuelsson when we have forgotten all about adam graves beside the obvious fact that lemeuix s career was never endangered by graves slash while neely is still bother by his injury i think the most important reason is adam graves has played clean hockey ever since while ulf samulesson continues to play dirty yes trying to hit a player where he s injured is dirty fans have can forget about one dirty play but how can you forget about ulf samulesson when everynight when i watch hockey high lights i get reminded of how dirty he is hitting a player when he s injured is dirty can you explain this statement do you mean a player who was just injured on the ice or do you mean a player who is playing hurt if a player is hurt he should not bother playing because i don t belive any player should be let up on just because they are playing hurt i m not an ulf fan but at least i can spot the fact he is like calgary s theoren fleury in the respect that part of his game is to really piss other players off as that s part of his job but he lacks ulf s size i am an ulf and pgh fan and what pisses me off about the whole adam graves ulf samuesson debate is that ulf plays hard hitting hockey nothing wrong with that while graves does what he does when the only way to win a game is to intentionally hurt someone which bites players that really piss me off are the ones who insist on hitting from behind or try to go for the knees to injure the players this kind of garbage has got to go i would really like to see muni get pasted as he is one of the worst offenders i thought they had instituted all kinds of new rules this season to stop crap like that is it just me or does the officiating just still stink to high heaven imho if they could get rid of the existing refs and institute a new system with more than one ref on the ice to keep an eye on the trouble makers then a lot of these things would stop and then the game would be ruled by the finnesse players mario selanne bure messier et al just my colin layfield religion and sex are power plays manipulate the people for the money they pay the university of calgary selling skin selling god computer science the numbers look the same on their credit cards layfield cpsc ucalgary ca queensryche tim drozinski embry riddle aero univ drozinst erau db erau edu
rec.sport.hockey	nhl results for games played nhl results for games played standings patrick adams norris smythe tm w l t pt tm w l t pt tm w l t pt tm w l t pt xpit xbos xchi xvan ywas yque ydet ycal ynj ymon ytor yla ynyi ybuf ystl ywin phl har min edm nyr ott tb sj x clinched division title y clinched playoff berth minnesota north stars detroit red wings st period min mcphee ludwig nd period min dahlen courtnall gagner pp det drake howe ogrodnick det ysebaert lidstrom howe pp rd period det ciccarelli coffey chiasson pp det kennedy burr probert det yzerman ciccarelli gallant min dahlen courtnall gagner powerplay opportunities north stars of red wings of shots on goal north stars red wings minnesota north stars casey shots saves detroit red wings cheveldae shots saves att philadelphia flyers buffalo sabres st period phl recchi galley lindros nd period phl hawgood dineen eklund pp phl dineen mcgill sh buf barnaby hawerchuk smehlik pp buf wood lafontaine ledyard pp buf mogilny hawerchuk carney pp rd period phl eklund dineen beranek buf mogilny errey lafontaine phl dineen brind amour pp phl dineen brind amour galley sh phl acton dineen brind amour powerplay opportunities flyers of sabres of shots on goal flyers sabres philadelphia flyers soderstrom shots saves buffalo sabres fuhr shots saves hasek second shots saves att edmonton oilers winnipeg jets st period win shannon steen davydov pp nd period win selanne olausson win zhamnov selanne rd period none powerplay opportunities oilers of jets of shots on goal oilers jets edmonton oilers ranford shots saves winnipeg jets essensa shots saves att toronto maple leafs chicago blackhawks st period tor baumgartner nd period chi roenick murphy chelios tor andreychuk mironov lefebvre chi murphy roenick chelios pp rd period chi matteau powerplay opportunities maple leafs of blackhawks of shots on goal maple leafs blackhawks toronto maple leafs potvin shots saves chicago blackhawks belfour shots saves att tampa bay lightning st louis blues st period stl shanahan brown felsner stl miller bassen brown stl bassen zombo nd period stl bassen hedican miller stl miller zombo hedican tbl maltais hamrlik tbl bergland harvey gilhen tbl shanahan emerson rd period tbl creighton bergland bergevin tbl chambers zamuner cole tbl cole beers bradley powerplay opportunities lightning of blues of shots on goal lightning blues tampa bay lightning jablonski shots saves bergeron third shots saves st louis blues joseph shots saves hebert third shots saves att san jose sharks calgary flames st period none nd period sjs garpenlov odgers gaudreau pp cal nieuwendyk macinnis suter pp cal ranheim otto suter cal yawney nieuwendyk roberts cal berube paslawski skrudland rd period sjs wood odgers kisio cal reichel cal roberts musil paslawski pp sjs kisio cal paslawski ashton stern powerplay opportunities sharks of flames of shots on goal sharks flames san jose sharks irbe shots saves calgary flames vernon shots saves att vancouver canucks los angeles kings st period lak robitaille gretzky sandstrom van babych craven nedved pp lak sandstrom gretzky robitaille nd period van linden ronning courtnall pp van ward hunter nedved lak gretzky sandstrom robitaille lak zhitnik kurri robitaille pp lak millen hardy pp rd period van ronning dirk van ronning courtnall linden pp van linden courtnall ronning lak donnelly millen granato pp van courtnall ronning ratushny van ronning linden diduck en powerplay opportunities canucks of kings of shots on goal canucks kings vanocuver canucks whitmore shots saves los angeles kings stauber shots saves hrudey third shots saves att spike
rec.sport.hockey	re truly a sad day for hockey joel alvstad writes a fine year history came to a close tonight as the minnesota north stars or norm s stars whichever you prefer lost to the red wings by a score of the stars goals were scored by mike mcphee and ulf dahlen who netted two including the final one in franchise history with less than a minute to play this is very sad indeed my condolences to the minnesota fans who are losing their team i fear that within the next decade or so the only professional sports team left in pittsburgh will be the steelers we should always enjoy things when we can you never know when they ll be taken away from us mom
rec.sport.hockey	re thumbs up to espn especially when the wings player hit the rut and went into the boards injuring his shoulder and they blotted out the injury report the wings player was yves racine and he returned later in that same period mike
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl draft in article io maine maine edu jon carr io maine maine edu writes when is the draft this year and will there be any coverage i know the upcomming nfl draft is on espn anyone got the details paul kariya pick no perhaps he won t last long i don t know the exact coverage in the states in canada it is covered by tsn so maybe espn will grab their coverage i don t know as for the picks ottawa picks which means it is almost that alexander daigle will go he ll either stay or be traded in montreal or quebec imo i would take kariya he should alot of leadership in the ncaa and so far in the world championships daigle didn t show this for his junior team san jose will then get kariya tampa bay will either go for a russian kozlov i think that s it or a defenseman rob niedemeyer probably spelt the last name wrong because of expansion i won t go further but i will name other of the blue chip prospects chris gratton chris pridham a swedish player who i can t remember his name draft order ottawa san jose tampa bay south florida or anahiem south florida or anahiem hartford edmonton dallas ny rangers philadelphia the th thru th picks could be wrong i don t have the standings here and am guessing in my mind there are top notch prospects in the draft with kariya leading the way but not going shawn go caps two first round picks for the next three years thanks st louis or should i say ron caron and scott stevens
rec.sport.hockey	re list of tee times at metropolitan toronto golf courses for monday in article apr julian uwo ca lee gaul csd uwo ca steve lee writes woops this is rec sport hockey not rec sport golf hope you check the newsgroup header next time before posting duh he was making a joke about how long the leafs would last in the playoffs y know hit the courses in the off season sheesh people are so quick to complain go skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite go braves an effect on you mike patton faith no more go hornets go capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd a prism gatech edu
rec.sport.hockey	re nhlpa poll partial stats results in article apr mtroyal ab ca caldwell mtroyal ab ca writes all these people who send in their polls should take a closer look at njd they are a very deep team with two very capable goalies and excellent forwards and defensemen shooter in richer an all around do it all in todd chef stasny master of a thousand dishes power play kevin todd is an oiler and has been one for months how closely do you follow the devils anyway jeez sigh this was written about the game nhlpa hockey which does not have precise up to date rosters why don t people think before they post jeez go skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite go braves an effect on you mike patton faith no more go hornets go capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd a prism gatech edu
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl team captains in article apr jarvis csri toronto edu leunggm odin control utoronto ca gary leung writes in article apr samba oit unc edu scott marks launchpad unc edu scott marks writes and of course mike ramsey was at one time the captain in buffalo prior to being traded to pittsburgh currently the penguins have former captains and real captain lemieux playing for them they rotate the a s during the season and even the c while mario was out even troy loney has worn the c for the pens i think that mike foligno was the captain of the sabres when he got traded to the leafs also wasn t rick vaive the captain of the leafs when he got traded to chicago with steve thomas for ed olcyzk and someone speaking of the leafs i believe that darryl sittler was their captain he d torn the c off his jersey but i think he re claimed the captaincy later on when he was traded to the flyers oh yeah of course gretzky was the captain of the oilers before he was traded wasn t he dale hawerchuk and troy murray were both captains of the jets when they were traded murray this year in mid season hawerchuk a few years ago in the off season daryl turner r s h contact for the winnipeg jets internet umturne ccu umanitoba ca fidonet or please route through tkachuk over to zhamnov up to sel nne he shoots he scores the jets win the cup the jets win the cup essensa for vezina housley for norris sel nne for calder
rec.sport.hockey	bruins klingon connection i was wondering if any star trek tng fans in this newsgroup knew of a possible relationship between the bruins players douris moog and the klingon names duras and worf son of moog i suppose it s a coincidence just curious bart
rec.sport.hockey	thumbs way way way down to espn tuesday and the isles caps game is going into overtime what does espn do tom mees says we are obligated to bring you baseball i hate to say this but last year the coverage of the playoffs on sports channel america out in colorado was vastly superior to what espn is giving us this year charlie shub cdash cs colorado edu or on leave at the university of iowa cdash cs uiowa edu
rec.sport.hockey	red wings goespel detroit s going to beat toronto in or less granted gilmour should get the hart trophy not lemieux just look at what gilmour did for toronto when you think of toronto who comes to mind gilmour andreychuk potvin ah did i mentio n gilmour back to detroit there really isn t a team that could stand up to them if all the players on the team play to their potential no one could stop them yzerman fedorov coffey lindstrom there s more firepower there than pittsburgh and they don t tri p over their own skates detroit over toronto in patrick walker detroit over chicago in university of new bruns detroit over vancouver in canada detroit over nords in disco still sucks
rec.sport.hockey	re panther s president in article apr alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca gerald olchowy writes the san jose sharks and ottawa senators are each on their second gm already i d be willing to wager that both the sharks and senators will probably see their rd gm s and perhaps their th before we see the panthers second actually fired coach george kingston was a third of the gm triumvirate now that the trio is now duo dean lombardi and chuck grillo the sharks are already on their rd office of the gm and a th is likely to happen before september they ll either add the new coach to the oofgm or name a single gm so your wager should be amended to read that sharks are likely to have their th gm before the panther s get their nd can t wait to see how the next season s nhl guide and record book lists the gm history of the sharks given the depth of next year s draft the expansion draft rules and the reputation of their gms anaheim and miami look pretty good as the first s expansion teams to win a cup san jose and ottawa have instability at the gm position something that philly nyi edmonton and calgary did not have when they won their first cups pittsburgh did but they needed a quarter century mike eisler mre eng sun com not only are they leafs the best team but their fans are even more intelligent and insightful than pittsburgh s their players are mighty bright too i mean he really was going to get his wallet back right jan brittenson on leaf pen woofers in rec sport hockey
rec.sport.hockey	re sharks review part left wings nlu xenon stanford edu nelson lu writes larry depalma season rd acquired free agent from minnesota grade i c d no netter fan watching the sharks including me knows where depalma was at the end of the season the sharks appeared to still have his rights but he wasn t in san jose he wasn t in kansas city and his name hasn t appeared on the waiver wire sorry nelson but you forgot to ask me if you check the thn stats for kansas city you ll find that larry has been playing for the games having played in games in the period covered in the stats between and the issue with pim not exactly invisible he then was sent down to kansas city walked out from there and was suspended and later reinstated when it was revealed that he was injured he then promptly disappeared from the watching eyes of shark bytes as the mailing list is now known to sharks officials faithful and neither the sharks nor we miss him well having gotten to a chance to talk to him a few times this isn t quite accurate he injured his back a disk injury and did one stupid thing which was to hide it from the sharks and he tried to play through it because he knew he was on the bubble the sharks then sent him to k c at which point he disclosed the injury since he didn t disclose it the sharks and he disagreed about the responsibility and he was suspended for not reporting that was eventually worked out the sharks re instated him as injured and put him into therapy and when he was able to play then shipped him down to k c he fully expects to play in the nhl again although clearly not with the sharks hiding injuries is a stupid no no beyond just a no no very nice guy always hustled his butt off he disappeared because he was hurt i expect he ll surface with another team at some point probably another expansion team but is likely to be a bubble player for the rest of his career has a good work ethic and is good at getting other players motivated unfortunately he played himself out of the sharks future with a bad judgement call john carter season th acquired free agent from boston grade i b b he is very unlikely to be back next season always gave best work ethic on the club except maybe kisio but hustle isn t always enough his future with the sharks was made clear to me one night against the flames when he went behind the crease and tried to hold joel otto against the board he literally had one arm around otto s neck and another wrapped around otto s stick arm otto casually turned around and fed the puck in front of the crease for a goal as though carter wasn t there hustle can only cover size so far the sharks have told me point blank that he s gone for good ditto hubie mcdonough he was one of the favorites of the staff but as one said to me you have to make room for the kids carter in fact refused to report to k c and has been suspended by the sharks that might be a defacto retirement but i haven t heard anything official his only hope in hockey now is the gulls jean francois quintin season st acquired from minnesota in dispersal draft grade i b b i don t understand why the sharks didn t let quintin play any more than the games he played this season because at least from the games i saw him in he was outmatched and looked fairly lost on the ice i think he shows potential but i didn t think he was quite ready to make the jump to the nhl he should be a solid contender for regular duty next season agreed btw i still think a lot of your grades are more based on how you wish they d performed than how they actually performed i wonder whether you can really judge talent from radio and television nelson i know i have trouble since you don t see the off puck action your views from home and my views from the ice differ in numerous ways mark beaufait season st acquired nd round pick in supplemental draft grade i after a all star season at kansas city beaufait got a cup of coffey with the coffee coffey is with the red wings dody wood season st acquired rd round pick in entry draft grade i d d although perhaps i shouldn t give a grade at all i have been accused of knocking on wood too much you nah he was seriously unimpressive even as a tough guy his rep however as few games as he had in a season that was at that point meaningless i hate to judge the talent too quickly butn in dody s case i m tempted to make an exception but i won t chuq imho von rospach esd support training dal aux chuq apple com member sfwa editor otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com san jose giants a san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com the stick not san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com new seat tbd
rec.sport.hockey	they guy who bad mouthed ulf ditto if we allow people like him to continue to do what he does it s a shame people say that cheap shots and drawing penalties by fake ing is part of the game i say bullsh t if he ever tried some like that on a yzerman he d would have to deal with probert now wouldn t he what ulf does isn t even retaliatory there s now way one could justify what he does and if they do they re fools patrick walker university of new brunswick i i i canada detroit fan extraordinaire
rec.sport.hockey	did you really expect toronto to go anywhere really detroit is a very disciplined team there s a lot of europeans in detroit which would make the game fast so toronto would have to slow the game down which means drawing penalties as a last resort anyway toronto will be a good team as soon as they get more good players toronto is just an average team detroit isn t ballard screwed toronto when he was owner everyone knows that and it s going to take time for toronto to become a real force i expect gilmour to be burnt out next year he can t pull the whole team forever patrick walker university of new brunswick
rec.sport.hockey	espn sucks ot or baseball guess which showing a meaningless relatively baseball game over the overtime of game that was tied up with less than seconds left on the clock gimme a break where does espn get these brilliant decisions from daryl turner r s h contact for the winnipeg jets internet umturne ccu umanitoba ca fidonet or please route through tkachuk over to zhamnov up to sel nne he shoots he scores the jets win the cup the jets win the cup essensa for vezina housley for norris sel nne for calder
rec.sport.hockey	espn the network with a heart dale hunter ties the game scoring his third goal of the game with seconds remaining in regulation you could feel it coming on due to contractual agreements espn will be unable to carry the rest of this game live so that we may show you a worthless early season battle between those two pennant contenders the cleveland indians and the california angels when the winning goal is scored we will do the grave injustice of breaking into the baseball game something reserved only for the deaths of presidents or the trading of joe montana to the chiefs to show you the goal on instant replay aren t you so lucky to have national coverage of hockey it s heidi all over again dammit kevin l stamber purdue university penguins devils roll train roll
rec.sport.hockey	re thumbs way way way down to espn cdash moet cs colorado edu charles shub writes tuesday and the isles caps game is going into overtime what does espn do tom mees says we are obligated to bring you baseball we re probably stuck as mike burger pointed out that the baseball deal was made far in advance of the nhl contract wabc did the same thing they were thankful that the devils were wiped out by because they had to switch over to yankees baseball the proof of the reasons for this is left to the reader it s too bad but i wonder if espn is stuck with other us local team coverage for their alternate games we got nesn s coverage of the bruins sabres with the boston homers they were awful i ve read that derek sanderson is the colour analyst i wonder if he spent his early years after hockey as an intern at pravda before landing this job everything had to be twisted into something good to say about the bruin s involved not even bill wirtz s shills on sc chicago pat foley dale tallon were this bad and just to be fair sc used to take their feed from esn empire sports network the sabre homers and they were horrible too but they were spacy from the cnn highlights i hear chris cuthbert s voice from the cbc coverage of the habs nords series too bad that we couldn t get it on espn with all due respect to the sabres and the bruins mike emrick is substituting on the devils scny team for gary thorne mike was the original devils tv play by play announcer by the way gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
rec.sport.hockey	re the guy who bad mouthed ulf patrick walker f hh unb ca writes if he ever tried some like that on a yzerman he d would have to deal with probert now wouldn t he do you realize how many smiles are crossing faces after you wrote that gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
rec.sport.hockey	espn thumbs up your jesus christ the score is now the pens are beating the shit out of the devils who gave up in the middle of the nd period espn does something smart the announcer states well folks this game is getting out of hand lets go to the islander capitals game i celebrate as i was actually making progress in my cs homework because i was so bored by the scheduled game i tear down and throw on my jersey hunter scores i go ape shit cause this is the first caps game i ve been able to watch all season and what does espn do they go back to the blowout that nj hasn t a chance in hell of winning the period ends and the sportscaster capitols just tied it up yes oops excuse me goes into his penguin worship mode dont freak pens fans they are worthy of this i m so glad we wont have to play them as much next year and here comes the rd period what its the blowout again oh they were just waiting for the cap isles to get out of intermission good they ve put a close game back on wait whats this shit they re showing the blowout again aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaauuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugggggggggggggggg oh guess what the score is now penguins switch games you holy shit they re changing games its about goddamned time lets see if they ll stay later i think this proves by point the caps game goes into overtime but due to contractual obligations they have to switch to the fucking baseball sorry for my language but im pissed what the hell were they going to do if their scheduled game went into overtime espn get your head out of your ass now i know there are a lot
rec.sport.hockey	wc scores and standings april world championships in germany group a standings munich group b standings dortmund gp w t l gf ga p gp w t l gf ga p canada czech republic russia finland italy germany sweden usa austria france switzerland norway april italy russia norway germany sweden austria usa czech republic april canada switzerland russia austria finland france april sweden canada czech republic germany switzerland italy finland usa april germany france italy sweden czech republic norway april switzerland russia usa france austria canada norway finland april switzerland austria germany finland april russia sweden czech republic france canada italy usa norway april sweden switzerland finland czech republic russia canada germany usa april austria italy france norway playoffs april quarterfinals a b a b april quarterfinals a b a b april relegation a b a b april semifinals a b a b a b a b may relegation bronze medal game may final staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson se r s h contact for swedish hockey
rec.sport.hockey	abc the real thing ok it seems that everyone else in canada was treated to the real abc telecast while only the people on rogers tv in surrey bc were treated to two channels with don i stink as a commentator whitman doing the play by play the godfather
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl draft in article apr newshub ariel yorku ca cs ariel yorku ca shawn luddington writes as for the picks ottawa picks which means it is almost that alexander daigle will go he ll either stay or be traded in montreal or quebec imo i would take kariya he should alot of leadership in the ncaa and so far in the world championships daigle didn t show this for his junior team san jose will then get kariya tampa bay will either go for a russian kozlov i think that s it or a defenseman rob niedemeyer probably spelt the last name wrong the last name is niedermayer as in new jersey s scott s last name because you guessed it they are brothers but rob niedermayer is a center not a defenseman i am not sure that the sharks will take kariya they aren t saying much but they apparently like niedermayer and victor kozlov along with kariya chris pronger s name has also been mentioned my guess is that they ll take niedermayer they may take pronger except that they already have too many defensive prospects go calgary flames al macinnis for norris gary roberts for hart and smythe go edmonton oilers go for playoffs next year stay in edmonton nelson lu claudius leland stanford edu rec sport hockey contact for the san jose sharks
rec.sport.hockey	re canada sweden at the world champioships in article apr venus cc hollandc pe ca white venus cc hollandc pe ca take me baby writes today at the world championships in munich canada scored an impressive victory over the defending world champs sweden in the game i have seen yesterday in the olympiahalle of munich canada won against sweden the last goal for canada was at in the rd period maybe you shouldn t go and get you another beer before the game is over and then post imaginary results holger s i e m e n s holger ohlwein ap otto hahn ring muenchen tel email holger ohlwein ap mchp sni de n i x d o r f never put off till tomorrow what you can avoid all together
rec.sport.hockey	re goodbye good riddance get lost stars in article blue cis pitt edu gomer pitt edu richard j coyle writes in article apr julian uwo ca kirk gaul csd uwo ca andrew kirk writes first off anyone accepted into the western business school is not a dork second just because one person out of a country of million doesn t think before he she posts an article does not mean that he she is embarrasing canada this network is for expressing what you feel are your thoughts just because someone doesn t agree with you this does not give you the right to call them assholes anyways the north stars are shit actually i think it does give people the privilege of calling folks like you assholes although my own asshole might take offense at being grouped in with a bunch of losers like you i ve never heard of the western business school anyhow probably a chickenshit place rick losers like us you are the fucking moron who has never heard of the western business school or the university of western ontario for that matter why don t you pull your head out of your asshole and smell something other than shit for once so you can look on a map to see where uwo is back to hockey the north stars should be moved because for the past few years they have just been shit a real team like toronto would never be moved andrew andrew kirk university of western ontario london ontario go leafs go
rec.sport.hockey	trivia the habs ok i m sure that this has been asked s of times before but i have wondered since i heard it where the hell did the nickname of the habs come from for the montreal canadiens thanks in advance caine schneider
rec.sport.hockey	nhl regular season final attendance report national hockey league season home attendance report each qtr represents home games qtr will have home games neutral site games are not included s o indicates the number of sell outs team name qtr s o qtr s o qtr s o qtr s o totals average bos buf cal chi det edm har la min mon nj nyi nyr ott phi pit que sj stl tb tor van was win avg
rec.sport.hockey	kings playoff notes stauber tv ratings etc los angeles kings notes playoffs stauber disturbed by third man theme by rick sadowski daily news barry melrose s decision to stick robb stauber in the stands rather than in the crease or even on the bench for the stanley cup playoffs does not sit well with the rookie goaltender i want to be a part of the team at the most crucial time of the year the most fun time of the year and i m not stauber said with some emotion monday i think i have worked hard enough for that stauber said he accepts melrose s choice of kelly hrudey as the teams top goalie in their playoff series with the calgary flames hrudey made saves in sundays opening victory but stauber clearly is upset with his sudden status as the no man behind rick knickle stauber had a record and goals against average down the stretch in the regular season and nearly wrestled the no job from hrudey knickle he won of decisions but had a bloated average twice was yanked from games once for stomach cramps and hasn t played since march yet when the series resumes wednesday knickle will serve as hrudey s backup again and stauber will have to satisfy his playoff hunger by munching on olympic saddledome popcorn if i m supposedly close to being the starter or could have been the starter i dropped too what happened to no stauber wondered not that i d be happy with no but i feel i should at least be a part of this team in the playoffs perhaps stauber eventually will get his chance but melrose apparently is not convinced the year old is capable of handling playoff pressure while insisting he is the kings goalie of the future melrose said stauber flubbed all four of the big games he was asked to win this season they were according to melrose a loss to san jose on dec an loss to the new york rangers on jan a tie with detroit on feb an loss to vancouver on thursday four times this season robb could have emerged as the elite goalie he could have taken it away from kelly hrudey and he didn t do it melrose said an elite goaltender has to carry the ball when you give it to him the mark of a great goalie is that he isn t satisfied to be a backup i m not blaming robb for the losses but if you re going to be no you ve got to be able to walk your talk you ve got to be able to play when everything is on the line robb stauber has a great deal of ability but maybe i expect more from him than he does ouch that remark stung stauber he began the season struggled when the team hit a mid season slump didn t play for a month after knickle was signed off the san diego gulls roster then came on at the end i expect more from myself than anybody including barry melrose said stauber a three year star at the university of minnesota who left school in only to have his development hampered by a string of serious injuries what i ve been through the last four years two knee operations a herniated disk in my back shoulder surgery what more can i go through i obviously do expect a lot from myself otherwise i wouldn t be here anybody who would disagree with that doesn t know me i m not saying barry doesn t know me but don t say i ve been without expectations if anything i m a perfectionist stauber acknowledged he played poorly in the four games melrose mentioned but even though i didn t play well i get knocked down from maybe on to three it s a bit of a jump he said you re almost no or if you play a good game you re no and if you don t you re no why does jack nicklaus shoot a and then a can you explain that that s what barry wanted me to explain to him why i didn t come through when he counted on me i don t know what i do know is it s a sport i ll be there melrose s goalie of the future statement doesn t mean much to stauber before you know it i ll be and there will be no future he said game of the kings flames playoff series drew a nielsen rating on abc channel here in la the kings averaged a nielsen rating in the regular season games aired on channel around the nhl san jose fired coach george kingston who lead the team to a mark in their nd nhl season kingston was over the past years with the sharks former islander executive bill torrey was named as president of the expansion florida panthers bobby clarke was named as the clubs general manager last nights games win van van leads tor det det leads stan willis willis empire dnet hac com net contact l a kings talk with the l a kings mailing list kings cs stanford edu to subscribe or unsubscribe kings request cs stanford edu
rec.sport.hockey	re schedule in article netnews upenn edu kkeller mail sas upenn edu keith keller writes in article qup linnotb master cs rose hulman edu swartzjh rosevc rose hulman edu writes f king no hockey games televised nationally tonight what the hell is this why the hell is espn showing some stupid baseball game when baseball is not even three weeks into the season and hockey is in the playoffs no wait i know the answer but still it really espn had the houston astros chicago cubs game scheduled for last night on the west coast since the game was rained out they showed the toronto maple leafs at the detroit red wings game instead stan willis net contact la kings
rec.sport.hockey	re s in article r on p bigboote wpi edu ching bigwpi wpi edu the logistician writes i am in need of all of the players wearing in the nhl i know now only of one ray borque for the bruins any help would be greatly appreciated paul coffey of detroit redwings bjoernar steinbakken
rec.sport.hockey	re red wings goespel don t forget paul ysebaert ex devil he s a good team player michael sy mvs cec wustl edu new jersey devils
rec.sport.hockey	wc results april world championships in germany group a results sweden canada st nd can geoff sanderson kevin dineen swe patrik juhlin jan larsson pp rd can geoff sanderson ps can mike gartner greg johnson adam graves can rod brind amour shayne corson shots on goal penalties attendance referee sweden min rob hearn usa canada min bill ranford stopped shots to lead canada to a victory in a very well played game the first period started with a give away from a canadian defenseman and rundqvist came in alone on ranford but couldn t put the puck over a sliding ranford later on kevin dineen had a great opportunity but soderstrom played very well too stefan nilsson had a couple of great dekes and set up jan larsson but again ranford came up big period ended scoreless but the edge to sweden in creating more opportunities second period action saw tommy soderstrom making a great save mark recchi made a backhanded cross ice pass to lindros eric one timed the puck but soderstrom was there to make a glove hand save at the minute mark canada started applying pressure on the swedes sanderson dineen brind amour worked hard and kept the puck in the swedes zone dineen gave the puck to sanderson who skated around a screened swedish defenseman came in on soderstrom and made a wrist shot that went it by soderstrom s far post canada the swedes picked up their game after that and peter forsberg had a shot that hit ranford s post the inside went parallel to the goal line and out then gartner got a penalty and the swedes a power play jan larsson took a shot from the slot ranford gave a rebound to larsson who saw juhlin by the far post passed the puck and ranford was beat third period started as the other periods swedes having most of the pressure but the canadians always dangerous once they were close to the swede goal at canada created some great chances and arto blomsten was forced to cover the puck in the swede goal crease since soderstrom lost sight of it that resulted in a penalty shot since a defenseman can t cover the puck in the goal crease geoff sanderson took the penalty shot his first ever he explained afterwards and he put it low on soderstrom s stick side close to the post excellent penalty shot to give canada a go ahead goal canada increased the lead on a very suspect offside gartner volleyed a bouncing puck past soderstrom to make it the swedes ran out of gas then and couldn t produce as good scoring chances as they had for periods the goal came with only second left rod brind amour scoring on a rebound from soderstrom where the swedish defense already had their minds in the dressing room a very good game the best in the wc so far with both goalies playing great soderstrom best player in sweden but ranford even played better than soderstrom that tells you something about ranford probably the best goalie in the world were some comments after the game canada played a very disciplined defense ranford pointed out that it is easy to play well with a good defense lindros played a lot and played well sanderson naturally game hero with two goals the forsberg naslund bergqvist line sweden s best along with larsson juhlin nilsson swedish defense played well cm kg peter popovic had the task of neutralizing cm kg eric lindros and managed this very well ranger defenseman peter andersson finally got to go to the wc and considering that he landed in germany just a few hours before the game he played very well swedish coach curt lundmark was irritated after the game partly because of the swedes inability to score and partly because of the linesman s mistake on the goal lines information follows further below italy switzerland st nd ita orlando rd penalties ita min swi min referee anton danko slovakia attendance group b results czech republic germany st nd cze kamil kastak cze jiri dolezal cze petr hrbek rd cze radek toupal cze josef beranek penalties cze min ger min min min game penalty referee darren loraas canada attendance the czechs were clearly better than the germans and the german crowd showed their discontent by throwing in stuff on the ice after a while finland usa st nd fin jarkko varvio rd usa ed olczyk penalties fin min usa min referee valeri bokarev russia attendance i hope some finns can provide information from this game i didn t see the whole game the finns took the lead on a jarkko varvio slap shot from the blue line and a soft goal for an unscreened mike richter as far as the play in the second period goes the finns seemed to have the most control so a lead was warranted as i saw it sweden canada goaltender tommy soderstrom bill ranford defense kenneth kennholt norm maciver fredrik stillman dave manson peter popovic geoff smith peter andersson brian benning arto blomsten terry carkner roger akerstrom garry galley derek mayer forwards mikael renberg dave gagner thomas rundqvist adam graves mikael andersson mike gartner markus naslund paul kariya peter forsberg eric lindros jonas bergqvist mark recchi patrik juhlin rod brind amour jan larsson shayne corson stefan nilsson kevin dineen charles berglund geoff sanderson michael nylander greg johnson andersson bergqvist brian savage kelly buchberger staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson se r s h contact for swedish hockey
rec.sport.hockey	buffalo boston defense tonight in boston the buffalo sabres blanked the boston bruins tonight in boston looks like boston can hang this season up because buffalo s home record is awesome this is great buffalo fans might get to see revenge for last year delarocq eos ncsu edu afc east division champions and afc conference champions squished the fish monday night football november squished the trash talking fish afc championship january if you are a buffalo bills fan email me at delarocq eos ncsu edu so we can talk all about the games insight etc if you are a packers fan let me know i am interested in any news out of green bay
rec.sport.hockey	re la on abc in canada plarsen sanjuan p allen larsen writes in article boora sfu ca boora kits sfu ca the godfather writes was the abc coverage of the kings flames game supposed to be the way it was shown in bc with cbc overriding the abc coverage when i flipped to abc it was the same commentators same commercials even my question is was this the real abc coverage or did cbc just black out the abc coverage for its own yes it s called simulcast in canada when a canadian station and an american station are showing the same thing whether a sporting event or cheers on thursday night the canadian signal is broadcast over the american station they even do this during the superbowl which has the best commercials of any television what do we get here dumb canadian commercials the same ones we ve seen for that last year or so i m in edmonton and while that s usually or at least often the case here we were treated to the actual abc telecast of the kings flames game i m with whoever said it earlier don witless er whitman is a poor commentator and not just for hockey normally if the oilers were still playing augh i would turn off the sound and listen to the radio broadcast to get decent play by play announcing bart edmonton
rec.sport.hockey	re bay area media wings leafs coverage in dreier apr durban berkeley edu dreier durban berkeley edu roland dreier writes the san francisco bay area media is reporting tonight that the detroit red wings beat the toronto maple leafs can someone who is not part of the media conspiracy against the leafs tell me how the game really went i am expecting a win for the leafs shutout for potvin hat trick for andreychuk and a goal and assists for gilmour if the leafs really lost how many penalties did whichever biased ref was at the game have to call against the leafs to let the red wings win ah yes california did the san francisco bay area media report that joe montana is rumoured to be the leading candidate to replace fired san jose sharks coach george kingston apparently montana is not only coveted for his winning attitude but as a playing coach he will be expected to quarterback the powerplay good thing those walls are so soft eh rollie cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl team captains anna matyas am x andrew cmu edu wrote michael collingridge writes and while we are on the subject has a captain ever been traded resigned or been striped of his title during the season any other team captain trivia would be appreciated wasn t ron francis captain of the whalers when he was traded to pittsburgh and rick tochett was the captain of the flyers when traded to the pens recently caleb and let us not forget that the new jersey devils traded captain kirk muller for stephen richer and chorske man i hated that trade
rec.sport.hockey	re wings take game one in qvos r msuinfo cl msu edu vergolin euler lbs msu edu david vergolini writes the detroit red wings put a lot of doubter on ice tonight with a washing of the toronto maple leafs all you toronto fans have now seen the power of the mighty red wing offense toronto s defense in no match for the wing offense as for the defense probert kennedey and primeau came out did they move probert back to defense why did i see him parking his ass in front of potvin all night somebody is going to have to discipline probert if the leafs want to win the series perhaps a fresh clark should hit the ice at the end of a long probert shift and straigten him out for a while cordially as always maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca so many morons rm and so little time
rec.sport.hockey	re wc results april dstein oak math ucla edu david stein writes what s going on the russians and the czechs are unable to beat easy opponents and the swedes beat austria only it s the opening game effect maybe pros arrive late nervousness for rookie wc players and problems to get the lines clicking may make things hard to get it going against these worse nations i d guess that the better team you face in the opening game the better it is since the chances of an upset are greater then some other reasons why the worse teams are so tough to beat was presented by hans virus lindberg former coach in switzerland the worse teams referring to france switzerland austria italy etc have now usually world class goalies their defensive play have become much more disciplined they take much less unnecessary penalties they use four lines which makes it harder to make them run out of gas the ice quality in the german wc rinks is poor the only convincing winner was germany wierd another weird thing was that the czechs played entertaining hockey err just kidding david p s alex i would like to see the czech roster including if possible the clubs from which the players come how many are finnish german or swiss alex that s a new name for me ok i forgot the czech roster at home yesterday but now i have it i don t know the teams for all players so i would appreciate if you guys could fill in the blanks for me especially i think some of these players play in finland the czech republic goaltenders petr briza finland somewhere right roman turek motor c budejovice defense leo gudas milos holan tj vitkovice drahomir kadlec bedrich scerban brynas sweden antonin stavjana hv sweden miroslav horava modo sweden ales flasar tj vitkovice forwards petr rosol kamil kastak hv sweden richard zemlicka jiri kucera jan caloun hc litvinov petr hrbek tomas kapusta otakar janecky finland roman horak motor c budejovice martin hostak modo sweden radek toupal jiri dolezal staffan staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson se r s h contact for swedish hockey
rec.sport.hockey	hockey the hispanic community relying on canadian tourists and transplanted northeasterners to support a team in miami is crazy espaecially when you have really deserving cities without a team such as san diego milwaukee i wish the panthers or whatever their name is well but if they can t sell to hispanics they re in deep doo doo already there are rumors that tampa may move to milwaukee
rec.sport.hockey	abc coverage i loved the abc coverage the production was excellent the appearance was excellent it had a sleek modern look this was the first time i heard thorne clement i thought they were great my only request is to leave al micheals out of this he annoys me i m hoping this leads to a regular season contract my guess would be is that it will be roughly a weekly game from feb april and then the playoffs i envy you canadians with your tsn cbc maybe i ll get a dish to pick up canadian tv how much are those things btw
rec.sport.hockey	nhl summary parse results for games played sun april new jersey pittsburgh first period pittsburgh tocchet stevens lemieux pp new jersey barr guerin holik pittsburgh lemieux jagr ramsey second period pittsburgh lemieux stevens murphy pp pittsburgh francis ramsey mullen pittsburgh tippett jagr mceachern third period pittsburgh jagr samuelsson lemieux pp new jersey stevens niedermayer driver pp new jersey stevens semak niedermayer pittsburgh power play scorer g a pts francis jagr lemieux mceachern mullen murphy ramsey samuelsson stevens tippett tocchet new jersey power play scorer g a pts barr driver guerin holik niedermayer semak stevens st louis chicago first period chicago noonan larmer brown second period st louis brown shanahan emerson chicago noonan roenick chelios pp chicago noonan matteau sutter st louis felsner mcrae janney third period st louis shanahan brown hull pp st louis hull emerson brown pp st louis power play scorer g a pts brown emerson felsner hull janney mcrae shanahan chicago power play scorer g a pts brown chelios larmer matteau noonan roenick sutter los angeles calgary first period los angeles sydor gretzky sandstrom second period calgary suter fleury sh los angeles carson shuchuk sydor pp los angeles huddy taylor rychel los angeles mcsorley unassisted third period los angeles millen granato donnelly calgary dahlquist otto calgary yawney macinnis reichel los angeles carson sandstrom robitaille pp los angeles power play scorer g a pts carson donnelly granato gretzky huddy mcsorley millen robitaille rychel sandstrom shuchuk sydor taylor calgary power play special goals sh total scorer g a pts dahlquist fleury macinnis otto reichel suter yawney first period ny islanders ferraro flatley vaske second period no scoring third period washington hunter elynuik krygier washington hunter khristich johansson pp washington khristich pivonka johansson pp washington power play scorer g a pts elynuik hunter johansson khristich krygier pivonka ny islanders power play scorer g a pts ferraro flatley vaske buffalo boston first period buffalo hannan unassisted buffalo lafontaine mogilny second period boston juneau neely oates pp boston neely oates juneau buffalo mogilny hawerchuk smehlik third period buffalo mogilny unassisted boston neely juneau oates boston heinze juneau overtime buffalo sweeney khmylev smehlik buffalo power play scorer g a pts hannan hawerchuk khmylev lafontaine mogilny smehlik sweeney boston power play scorer g a pts heinze juneau neely oates montreal quebec first period montreal dionne dipietro brunet second period montreal bellows muller desjardins third period quebec rucinsky lapointe sundin pp quebec sakic lapointe overtime quebec young ricci duchesne quebec power play scorer g a pts duchesne lapointe ricci rucinsky sakic sundin young montreal power play scorer g a pts bellows brunet desjardins dionne dipietro muller
rec.sport.hockey	college hockey all star roster could someone please post the rosters for the college hockey all star game east and west rosters thanks in advance
rec.sport.hockey	re wc results april in article apr ericsson se etxonss ufsa ericsson se staffan axelsson writes ok i forgot the czech roster at home yesterday but now i have it i don t know the teams for all players so i would appreciate if you guys could fill in the blanks for me especially i think some of these players play in finland the czech republic goaltenders petr briza finland somewhere right signed contract for ev landshut germany for the season defense leo gudas ec hedos muenchen germany since holger s i e m e n s holger ohlwein ap otto hahn ring muenchen tel email holger ohlwein ap mchp sni de n i x d o r f never put off till tomorrow what you can avoid all together
rec.sport.hockey	request for list of boston univ players in nhl being a proud bu alumnus i d like to get a list of bu players in the nhl so i can keep an eye on their progress a lot of terriers are graduating this year so i hope to see them soon in the nhl if somebody could post or send me a list i d appreciate it please note if the player graduated from here or not
rec.sport.hockey	sharks kingston fired i just overheard that san jose coach george kingston was officially terminated today maybe good news maybe bad i kinda liked him but he seemed to lack a certain fire bill gibson gibson bill applelink apple com chief technical sponge applelink gibson bill apple computer inc just say sharks
rec.sport.hockey	detroit toronto what s the deal c s h has nothing on it yet is it in ot is it over what i want to know we all want to know where s roger when you need him keith keller let s go rangers let s go quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs a cow is not a vegetarian dish keith keller
rec.sport.hockey	re goalie mask poll in article hydra gatech edu gtd a prism gatech edu hrivnak writes current votes for favorite goalie masks pts st pts nd pt rd others receiving less than pts mike vernon cal clint glenn healy nyi toy espo gilles gratton is this tony esposito if memory serves me correctly chicago god i hope i am right otherwise i will never hear the end of it keith keller let s go rangers let s go quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs a cow is not a vegetarian dish keith keller
rec.sport.hockey	final season chl stuff here are the final stats for the chl for the season central hockey league s memorial drive suite tulsa ok phone fax founder and president ray miron commissioner monte miron marketing director jim goodman information director eric kolb each team is owned by the league with local intrests controlling day to day operations working agreements and nhl affiliations are up to each team each team has a salary cap for total players dress up each team is limited to visas meaning at least players must be americans ignore this rule if you are tulsa they only had americans on the roster during the playoffs teams play in wichita tulsa oklahoma city memphis fort worth and dallas future expansion plans include houston san antonio baton rouge little rock el paso albuquerque tuscon and amarillo austin is a possibility if dallas has to move houston and san antonio are in for this fall with baton rouge and little rock likely for teams fort worth fire wichita thunder arena tarrant co conv cen kansas coliseum colors red and black blue silver and black gm george branum bill shuck coach pete mahavolich doug sheddan phone fire season tix single tix radio announcers dallas freeze tulsa oilers arena fair park coliseum civic center colors teal and black orange and blue gm tom koch jeff d lund coach ron flockhart gary unger personal guardians phone puck season tix ray and monte single tix miron radio ksky am ktrt am announcers bruce levine jeff brucculeri mark stone jeff bowen memphis river kings oklahoma city blazers arena mid south coliseum myriad state fair arena colors gold and black red yellow and black gm jim riggs brad lund coach steve carlson mike mcewen phone puck season tix single tix radio krec am wwls am announcers dave woloshin john brooks tom stocker brian barnhart regular season standings w l otl pts gf ga pim avg attdnce cap oklahoma city blazers tulsa ice oilers dallas freeze memphis riverkings fort worth fire wichita thunder playoffs tulsa defeated dallas games to wllwwlw oklahoma city defeated memphis games to wwllww levin trophy finals tulsa defeated oklahoma city games to wwlww playoff mvp tony fiore tulsa special votes to ray and monte miron team vs team dallas fort worth memphis oklahoma city tulsa wichita dallas fort worth memphis oklahoma city tulsa wichita power play statistics penalty killng statistics ppg opp shga pct ppg saves opp shg pct okla city okla city tulsa dallas dallas tulsa fort worth wichita wichita memphis memphis fort worth penalty record min game gross oppn pim avg minor major bench misc misc misc match pim wichita fort worth memphis dallas okla city tulsa scoring by period st period nd period rd period overtime shootout totals gf ga gf ga gf ga gf ga gf ga gf ga dallas fort worth memphis okla city tulsa wichita all star team position first team second team goaltender tony martino tulsa robert desjardins wichita tie alan perry oklahoma city tie defensemen dave doucette dallas mike berger dallas guy girouard oklahoma city tom karalis tulsa center carl boudreau oklahoma city joe burton oklahoma city left wing sylvain fleury oklahoma city doug lawrence tulsa right wing daniel larin oklahoma city tom mutch memphis tie sylvain naud tulsa tie regular season mvp sylvain fleury oklahoma city rookie of the year bobby desjardins wichita leading defenseman dave doucette dallas leading goaltender tony martino tulsa scoring leaders points team gp g a pts goals team gp g fleury sylvain okc fleury sylvain okc lawrence doug tul larin daniel okc naud sylvain tul mutch tom mem mutch tom mem thibodeau ken mem hall taylor tul naud sylvain tul thibodeau ken mem taylor jason dal anchikoski wayne dal boudreau carl okc assists team gp a larin daniel okc lawrence doug tul taylor jason dal fleury sylvain okc dent ted wch naud sylvain tul sanderson mike ftw doucette dave dal gatti dave wch hall taylor tul nobili mario tul girouard guy okc cyr keith wch d amario peter mem penalty minutes team gp pim johnston scot mem aubrey ron ftw burton joe okc karalis tom tul simoni steve okc johnson craig okc hornak ernest ftw neish greg wch fiore tony tul batten john mem doucette dave dal taylor jason dal leading goaltenders or more games team gpi min gaa w l otl en so ga saves save pct martino tony tul perry alan okc zanier mike dal mindjimba antoine mem smith greg dal desjardins bobby wch belley roch ftw other goalies team gpi min gaa w l otl en so ga saves save pct flatt brian tul krake paul okc loewen jamie tul ocello matt ftw ocello matt tul totals raymond eric tul o hara michael ftw vasko steve mem trentadue rocco ftw trentadue rocco okc totals harvey alain wch gosselin yannick wch gosselin yannick okc totals caton murray wch mcdonnell dan tul sauer e j tul clark joel wch wachter steve wch marc dee foster r s h contact for the chl
rec.sport.hockey	more tv info united states coverage sunday april n j n y i at pittsburgh edt to eastern time zone abc gary thorne and bill clement st louis at chicago cdt and mdt to central mountain zones abc mike emerick and jim schoenfeld los angeles at calgary pdt and adt to pacific alaskan zones abc al michaels and john davidson tuesday april n j n y i at pittsburgh edt nationwide espn gary thorne and bill clement thursday april and saturday april to be announced edt nationwide espn to be announced canadian coverage sunday april buffalo at boston edt nationwide tsn tuesday april n j d n y at pittsburgh edt nationwide tsn wednesday april st louis at chicago edt nationwide tsn
rec.sport.hockey	octopus in detroit i was watching the detroit minnesota game last night and thought i saw an octopus on the ice after ysebaert scored to tie the game at two what gives is there some custom to throw octopuses on the ice in detroit not responsible dain bramaged harold zazula dlmqc cunyvm cuny edu hzazula alehouse acc qc edu
rec.sport.hockey	re flyers re this year s biggest and worst opinion in article apr cbnewsh cb att com seth cbnewsh cb att com peter r clark jr writes so in other words if roussel shuts out the sharks and soderstrom shuts out the penguins that s immaterial because it was the coaches decision come on joe think about what you re saying who they played is very significant why they played them is what s irrelevent a low gaa against good teams is better than a low gaa against bad teams in the context of comparing two goaltenders a low gaa is better then a higher gaa a low gaa against good teams is much much better than a higher gaa against bad teams in the context of comparing two goaltenders let s start over i m not arguing about who is the better goaltender i d take soderstrom right now what i am saying is that roussel can be a netminder the gaa difference is less than half a goal per game less than that after last night their save percentages are close and their records are similar and with that i just don t see how you can label roussel as the most disappointing player on the flyers this season you say soderstrom played against better competition that may very well be but there is no way of knowing how roussel would have performed in those games besides against the better scoring teams like pittsburgh the defense is more keyed up than they are against san jose the same for roussel in the ranger game two real scoring chances one he made a great play the other he was saved by a mistake from the other player if you were judging roussel on that game alone you have very little to go by but i m not just judging roussel on that game alone i ve seen him play for the past two seasons in philly and before that in hershey it s just my opinion but i think he s got what it takes of course i thought that about mark laforest too but i never did about wendell young so i m batting in judging hershey talent since the hextall era as for the rangers game you can say he was saved by a mistake by the offensive player if you like but rou had his leg in position to make the save if he didn t it wouldn t have mattered if the rangers player didn t get the puck up or not it would have been a goal on a breakaway that s what the goalie wants to do take away as much as possible and force the shooter to beat him but if you were to look at the tie against the habs you saw a goalie stand on his head to get that shutout that was a goalie in action roussel doesn t have a game like that in him i seem to remember roussel doing an excellent job against pittsurgh on opening night to give the flyers a tie against the two time defending champs and not to take anything away from soderstrom because he was senational in that game agains the habs but you can t tell me that a montreal player had an open net to shoot at some point during that game and just flat out missed it mistakes both on offense and defense are part of the game or there d never be shutouts anyway i m happy the flyers have both soderstrom and roussel and i m not going to argue about it anymore besides with the current game winning streak and expectations soaring for next year i don t want to piss you off to the point that you don t sell me any tickets next season joe dakes at t microelectronics union boulevard allentown pa let s go flyers alux jmd jmd aluxpo att com
rec.sport.hockey	re goalie masks tom barrasso wore a great mask one time last season he unveiled it at a game in boston it was all black with pgh city scenes on it the golden triangle pgh s downtown area where the rivers meet graced the top along with a steel mill on one side and the civic arena i think on the other on the back of the helmet was the old pens logo the really fat little penguin with the blue scarf the current at the time pens logo and a space for the new now current logo tommy had designed the mask and his mother an artist painted it for him but while wearing the mask the pens got thumped by the bruins the very next game tommy was back to the old paint job a great mask done in by a goalie s superstition lori
rec.sport.hockey	re pens info needed in article apr jyu fi mikkot romulus math jyu fi mikko tarkiainen writes coaching news alpo suhonen ex jets to jokerit now verified boris majorov ex jokerit to tappara vasili tichonov ex assat to san jose sharks assistant coach sakari pietila to lulea silver team in elite serien wow so that s probably the reason why current assistant coach drew ramenda hinted that he won t be back thanks for the news mikko can you or any of our finnish netters comment on tichonov go calgary flames al macinnis for norris gary roberts for hart and smythe go edmonton oilers go for playoffs next year stay in edmonton nelson lu claudius leland stanford edu rec sport hockey contact for the san jose sharks
rec.sport.hockey	re octopus in detroit in article dlmqc cunyvm bitnet harold zazula dlmqc cunyvm bitnet writes i was watching the detroit minnesota game last night and thought i saw an octopus on the ice after ysebaert scored to tie the game at two what gives no no no it s a squid keep the tradition alive kinda like the fish at unh games is there some custom to throw octopuses on the ice in detroit not responsible dain bramaged harold zazula dlmqc cunyvm cuny edu hzazula alehouse acc qc edu
rec.sport.hockey	re tv schedule for next week in article apr yuma acns colostate edu mmb lamar colostate edu michael burger writes united states tv schedule april devils islanders at pittsburgh est abc to eastern time zone april st louis at chicago cdt abc to cent mou time zones april los angeles at calgary pdt abc to pacific time zone april devils islanders at pittsburgh espn april tba espn april tba espn a little supplement basic mike s info for sundday s opener on abc these are the announcing crews devils isles at pittsburgh gary thorne play by play bill clement color and al morganti roaming the halls outside the dressing rooms this telecast will primarily seen on the east coast st louis at chicago mike emrick play by play jim schoendfeld color and tom mees roaming the halls this telecast will primarily be seen in the midwest and parts of the south la at calgary al do you believe in mircales michaels play by play john davidson color and mark jones as a roaming reporter this telecast will be seen in the western usa montreal s naitive jon saunders will be hosting in the studio abc will do up and close and personal with mario during saturday s wide world of sports edt sunday will be the first nhl playoff or regular network telecast in years not counting those silly all star games on nbc for the last few years for sunday s games abc will use mikes behind on the goal super super slo mo close ups of player s faces at face offs espn abc will not be able to use its new favorite toy the ice level shot in pittsburgh where too many seats would have to removed to employ it in case of a blowout in progress in pittsburgh abc will switch to chicago game but will come back to the pittsburgh game for updates or if the game gets closer ha abc expects huge ratings by hockey standards since all top us tv markets are involved ny metro area ny islanders nj devils chicago blackhawks and la kings stay tuned thanks mike ppv mark
rec.sport.hockey	rumour keenan signs with rangers upi clarinet has just relayed a scoop from the toronto sun or was that star i like the star myself that iron mike keenan has come to an agreement with the new york rangers for next season interestingly this comes the day after the times sports had an editorial about how the rangers need their own pat riley who cares about what happens after next season gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
rec.sport.hockey	re plus minus stat in article apr sol uvic ca gballent hudson uvic ca writes in article blue cis pitt edu jrmst pitt edu joseph r mcdonald writes jagr has a higher but francis has had more points and take it from an informed observer ronnie francis has had a much better season than jaromir jagr this is not to take anything away from jaro who had a decent year although it didn t live up to the expectations of some bowman tended to overplay francis at times because he is a bowman style player he plays hard at all times doesn t disregard his defensive responsibilities and is a good leader bowman rewarded him be increasing his ice time jagr can be very arrogant and juvenile and display a me first attitude this rubbed bowman the wrong way and caused him to lose some ice time throughout the year francis consistently recieved more ice time than jagr althouhg i have never seen stats on this subject i am pretty sure that jagr had more points per minute played that francis when you add to that jagr s better rating i think it becomes evident that jagr had a better season not that francis had a bad one actually what i think has become more evident is that you are determined to flaunt your ignorance at all cost jagr did not have a better season than francis to suggest otherwise is an insult to those with a modicum of hockey knowledge save your almost maniacal devotion to the almighty plus minus it is the most misleading hockey stat available until the nhl publishes a more useful quantifiable statistic including ice time per game and some measure of its quality i e is the player put out in key situations like protecting a lead late in the game is he matched up against the other team s top one or two lines short handed etc i would much rather see the disappear altogether instead of having its dubious merits trumpeted by those with little understanding of its implications brad brad k gibson internet gibson geop ubc ca dept of geophysics astronomy main mall phone university of british columbia fax vancouver british columbia canada v t z
rec.sport.hockey	re hockey and the hispanic community in article saross starbase spd louisville edu saross starbase spd louisville edu stacey a ross writes in c i s bt odin corp sgi com rickc wrigley corp sgi com richard casares writes you ll have a hard time selling any sport to a community that can t play it on account of availability or financial reasons hockey is pretty much a sport for the white and well off what white yes well off definitely not hockey season ticket owners have the lowest average income of any of the four major north american sports do you have a basis for this claim try these stats taken from playboy magazine june percentage of pro football fans who have attended college percentage of pro baseball fans who have attended college percentage of pro basketball fans who have attended college percentage of pro hockey fans who have attended college percentage of pro football fans who earn more than k percentage of pro baseball fans who make more than k percentage of pro basketball fans who make more than k percentage of pro hackey fans who make more than k and think of where the majority of hockey players come from from a farm out in boondock saskatchewan or weedville alberta the biggest advantage that kids from boondock or weedville have is the availability of ice in the san jose area we have a population of and that population is served by ice arenas in contrast kamloops british columbia has a population of about and has rinks there are also myriad ponds pools etc that freeze in the winter down here it s hard to find a kid without a bicycle up there it s hard to find a kid without a pair of skates and before you say what does he know he s from california let me say that i was born and raised in trail british columbia a town of about with lots of ice in the winter my father did radio play by play for the local team the trail smokeaters who by the way were the last canadian team to win the world championship back in i was on skates almost as soon as i could walk and have been playing recreational hockey for about years when was the last time you saw a hockey league in the inner city the insurance alone is a big enough barrier the inner city isn t the only place that is poor i think the biggest barrier to hockey in the inner city is no ice to play on lack of ice is a big factor but costs is a bigger factor both my kids play for the santa clara valley hockey association and this season which just ended cost me per kid for membership in hockey usa plus per kid for club dues the hockey usa fees cover excess medical insurance and the club dues cover ice time officials trophies etc other areas have similar fees unless the city government subsidises some of the costs as stockton does by the way most ice arenas are located in what could be called the inner city areas eastridge and vallco are exceptions redwood city s rink is in an industrial area on bay rd near berkeley s is near ashby and martin luther king stockton s is in oak park sacramento s is in an older section of downtown i forget the name of the street fresno s is out on the edge of town just west of santa rosa s is a nice rink but it s in an older section of town dublin s is outside of town off most of the rinks are old and expensive to run with huge electric bills and insurance premiums if you want to buy ice time expect to pay around per hour at any of these rinks some of them give you a minute hour for your money others give you a minute hour and include the resurfacing time in the fee alan hepburn a man doesn t know what he knows national semiconductor until he knows what he doesn t know santa clara ca alan berlioz nsc com thomas carlyle
rec.sport.hockey	re octopus in detroit david
rec.sport.hockey	re rumour keenan signs with rangers in article apr news columbia edu gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes upi clarinet has just relayed a scoop from the toronto sun or was that star i like the star myself that iron mike keenan has come to an agreement with the new york rangers for next season interestingly this comes the day after the times sports had an editorial about how the rangers need their own pat riley who cares about what happens after next season the rumour was basically everywhere in toronto based on reports that keenan has told both san jose and philadelphia that he was no longer interested in pursuing further negotiations with either team the ranger announcement is supposed to happen tomorrow supposedly the rangers have so many veterans that they had to get a coach with weight and a proven record and whom they know messier respects gerald
rec.sport.hockey	blackhawks win the hawks win jermey roenick scored his th goal and the hawks put the leafs in their place the losers column if the leafs can not even beat the hawks in a match that had little or no meaning i will hate to see them against the wings oh btw i laugh at rm that jerky go hawks jb
rec.sport.hockey	re octopus in detroit harold zazula dlmqc cunyvm bitnet writes i was watching the detroit minnesota game last night and thought i saw an octopus on the ice after ysebaert scored to tie the game at two what gives is there some custom to throw octopuses on the ice in detroit it is a long standing good luck redwing s tradition to throw an octopus on the ice during a stanley cup game they say it dates back to at the olympia when the wings became the st team i think to sweep the cup in games a lot hardet to throw one from joe louis seats than from the old olympia balcony though funniest i ever saw was when some tiger fans threw one on the field during a detroit toronto baseball game i was living in california and the folks i was watching with had never heard of hockey and were incredulous when i recognized the octopus before the camera closeup
rec.sport.hockey	re blackhawks win in apr vax cns edu jbrown vax cns muskingum edu writes the hawks win jermey roenick scored his th goal and the hawks put the leafs in their place the losers column if the leafs can not even beat the hawks in a match that had little or no meaning i will hate to see them against the wings oh btw i laugh at rm that jerky i would appreciate it if you would not refer to mr maynard by his initials thanks see you in the norris finals ron and one of my major goals is to leave the next president a new set of things to worry about i m getting bored reading the same problems in the paper decade after decade i want people to have to deal with new problems president bill clinton
rec.sport.hockey	re plus minus stat in article qmtd innr l iskut ucs ubc ca gibson nukta geop ubc ca brad gibson writes in article apr sol uvic ca gballent hudson uvic ca writes in article blue cis pitt edu jrmst pitt edu joseph r mcdonald writes jagr has a higher but francis has had more points and take it from an informed observer ronnie francis has had a much better season than jaromir jagr this is not to take anything away from jaro who had a decent year although it didn t live up to the expectations of some bowman tended to overplay francis at times because he is a bowman style player he plays hard at all times doesn t disregard his defensive responsibilities and is a good leader bowman rewarded him be increasing his ice time jagr can be very arrogant and juvenile and display a me first attitude this rubbed bowman the wrong way and caused him to lose some ice time throughout the year francis consistently recieved more ice time than jagr althouhg i have never seen stats on this subject i am pretty sure that jagr had more points per minute played that francis when you add to that jagr s better rating i think it becomes evident that jagr had a better season not that francis had a bad one actually what i think has become more evident is that you are determined to flaunt your ignorance at all cost jagr did not have a better season than francis to suggest otherwise is an insult to those with a modicum of hockey knowledge save your almost maniacal devotion to the almighty plus minus it is the most misleading hockey stat available until the nhl publishes a more useful quantifiable statistic including ice time per game and some measure of its quality i e is the player put out in key situations like protecting a lead late in the game is he matched up against the other team s top one or two lines short handed etc i would much rather see the disappear altogether instead of having its dubious merits trumpeted by those with little understanding of its implications thank you for posting this as the person who first brought up the fact that jagr has a much higher than francis i can assure you that i brought it up as an example of the absurdity of comparisons even on the same team i never ever thought that anyone would argue that jagr s higher actually reflected better two way play in my opinion francis s low is purely a result of him being asked to play against opponents top scorers at all times the fact that he can chip in points while neutralizing the other team s top center is a testament to how valuable he is even if his suffers on the other hand jagr for how big fast and skilled he is can t even get points no matter how inflated his is by the way don t get me wrong i like jagr he may be a lazy floater but he turns it on at exactly the right times like overtime of playoff games roland dreier dreier math berkeley edu
rec.sport.hockey	re president trophy winner missing playoffs jstrangi hora seas upenn edu jim strangio writes in article apr vm mcgill ca ccdb musica mcgill ca ccdb writes when was the last time a president s trophy winner fell to last place the following year a long time i d bet well i think it in the montreal canadians finished st although there was no president s cup in those days and missed the playoffs in i do recall that the playoff picture wasn t decided until the final day when the ny rangers defeated the redwings the tie breaker was the number of goals for if i remember correctly so the rangers played with an empty net for the entire game some hab loyalists accused the wings of throwing the game to keep them out but as i recall gordie and delvecchio had the flu so coach sid abel sat them out and the rangers swarmed the redwings most of the night
rec.sport.hockey	re octopus in detroit it s in the faq have fun gak richard stueven aha he has erected a multitude of new internet gak wrs com go offices and sent hither swarms attmail attmail gakhaus gak sharx of officers to harass our people cow palace h and eat out their substance
rec.sport.hockey	keenan signs with the rangers just heard on the news that mike keenan formerly of the blackhawks flyers and general of a siberian prison has just signed to coach the rangers the rangers who won the president s cup last year have slipped just a bit at the end of the season and are destined to finish last behind the lowly flyers the flyers fans are going to be disappointed on keenans decision because they were very interested in him oh well go caps connin
rec.sport.hockey	ahl final standings final american hockey league standings northern division w l t pts gf ga lyf providence bruins adirondack red wings capital district isles springfield indians new haven senators southern division w l t pts gf ga lyf binghamton rangers rochester americans utica devils baltimore skipjacks hershey bears hamilton canucks atlantic division w l t pts gf ga lyf st john s maple leafs fredericton canadiens cape breton oilers moncton hawks halifax citadels last year s point total league record total bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl ecac and boston bruins contact for rec sport hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey ny division ii state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
rec.sport.hockey	devils and islanders tiebreaker if the islanders beat the devils tonight they would finish with identical records who s the lucky team that gets to face the penguins in the opening round also can somebody list the rules for breaking ties
rec.sport.hockey	nhl team in milwaukee after reading some of the reports of possible nhl moves to milwaukee or that milwaukee should have an nhl team i thought i d pass along a story i heard recently this is second hand so i don t know how true it is but i have no reason to doubt it either bradley center in milwaukee is home to the milwaukee admirals minor leauge hockey team the owner of the admirals sorry i can t remember his name either owns or at least shelled out the majority of the funds to build the bradley center supposedly he was approached by the nhl about an expansion franchise but turned it down because he thought the franchise fee of million was too high like i said i don t know whether this story is true or just a rumor but if it s true don t look for an nhl team in milwaukee anytime soon the admirals aren t going to be forced out of the building and you won t see an nhl club and a minor league club in the same building especially since the nba s milwaukee bucks play there as well charlie betz cray research inc chippewa falls wi cbetz romulus cray com
rec.sport.hockey	re how to beat pittsburgh in article apr guvax acc georgetown edu apanjabi guvax acc georgetown edu writes how to beat pittsburgh iii kevin stevens a fighting call bob probert call tie domi call my grandmother she d kick his ass yeah i ve seen you re grand mother i bet she could joseph stiehm
rec.sport.hockey	re rumour keenan signs with rangers golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca gerald olchowy writes gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes the ranger announcement is supposed to happen tomorrow supposedly press conference at pm the rangers have so many veterans that they had to get a coach with weight and a proven record and whom they know messier respects interestingly keenan s co coach or is it his number one on team canada at the world championships is roger neilsen it d be interesting if the rangers call in the balance of neilsen s contract to be keenan s assistant roger did do a very good job with the mediocre players just as he handled the cinderella canucks of years ago but his mistake was playing the rangers like those canucks last may gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
rec.sport.hockey	re patrick playoffs look like this jan brittenson writes last year the pens weak spot is defense and goaltending if boston boston doesn t have the guns of the pens but the pens doesn t have the defense goaltending and discipline of boston still boston can why do you say this as of now the pens and bruins have played the same number of games and given up the same number of goals they are tied for the third and fourth best defenses in the league behind chicago first and toronto second the pens weak spot is defense only by comparison to their offense which is second in the league to detroit but the pens are no weaker on defense and goaltending than the bruins are that is they are both very strong terry
rec.sport.hockey	re finland sweden vs nhl teams was helsinki stockholm nhl expansion finland d jyrki lumme d teppo numminen d peter ahola well well they don t like our defenders mainly lumme and numminen c jari kurri c christian ruuttu now do you think that ruuttu is only worth i think it might be r teemu selanne compared to kurri selanne s points are too high lets make it or well in the canada cup and world championships largely due to the efforts of markus ketterer the goalie or the players listed above and luck there s presumably a lot of decent players in finland that wouldn t be superstars at the highest level but still valuable role players however my guess would be that the finnish canada cup team would be a team in the nhl wow now it looks like you don t like our players what about guys like nieminen jutila riihijarvi varvio laukkanen makela keskinen and even if he is aging ruotsalainen the main difference between finnish and north american players is that our players tend to be better in the larger rink the canadian defenders are usually slower that defenders in europe and i think that there was more in our success than ketterer and luck though they helped i think that the main reason was that the team worked well together howl howl gargle howl gargle howl howl howl gargle howl gargle howl howl gargle gargle howl gargle gargle gargle howl slurrp uuuurgh prostetnic vogon jeltz marko poutiainen mep phoenix oulu fi
rec.sport.hockey	re devils and islanders tiebreaker according to the hockey gurus over at espn should the islanders win tonite the two teams will have the same record but the devils will be playing the penguins this is because the islanders have won the season series against the devils i think the rules for deciding a tie breaker include season series goals against goals for in this order correct me if i m wrong anyone have anything to add craig go islanders
rec.sport.hockey	re octopus in detroit d jaracz oz plymouth edu writes in article dlmqc cunyvm bitnet harold zazula dlmqc cunyvm bitnet writes i was watching the detroit minnesota game last night and thought i saw an octopus on the ice after ysebaert scored to tie the game at two what gives no no no it s a squid keep the tradition alive kinda like the fish at unh games actually the way i understand it it is an octapus apparently a number of years ago a fan threw an octapus on the ice and the announcer said octapi will not occupy the ice or something like that and it s happened ever since the fans cheer those who pick up the dead octapus with their hands and boo those who use a shovel matt at uva
rec.sport.hockey	re devils and islanders tiebreaker in article c ldi u odin corp sgi com enolan sharkbite esd sgi com ed nolan writes if the islanders beat the devils tonight they would finish with identical records who s the lucky team that gets to face the penguins in the opening round also can somebody list the rules for breaking ties i am not sure about the tie breaker rules however i think if the islanders win oh god please please let them win the islanders win the series against nj and advances to third of course no one asked me i always interject my opinions on maters i have no concern over go islanders i mean come on the jets were bad enough go jets for
rec.sport.hockey	re plus minus stat in article qmtd innr l iskut ucs ubc ca gibson nukta geop ubc ca brad gibson writes in response to a debate about who has has a better season jagr of francis i think jagr did he probably had a better point per minute ice time stats don t exist to properly analyze this and he had a substancially better actually what i think has become more evident is that you are determined to flaunt your ignorance at all cost jagr did not have a better season than francis to suggest otherwise is an insult to those with a modicum of hockey knowledge save your almost maniacal devotion to the almighty plus minus it is the most misleading hockey stat available until the nhl publishes a more useful quantifiable statistic including ice time per game and some measure of its quality i e is the player put out in key situations like protecting a lead late in the game is he matched up against the other team s top one or two lines short handed etc i would much rather see the disappear altogether instead of having its dubious merits trumpeted by those with little understanding of its implications is a useful statistic if a player is on the ice when his team scores a lot of goals and only allows a few goals he must be doing something right it is especially useful to compare between teammates as they play for the same team and should have roughly similar ratings if they are equally good players it can be adjusted with varying degrees of success to compare between players on different teams i agree it would be nice for the nhl to keep more statistics but how useful are the ones that you suggest total ice time would be very useful it is a missing stat in jagr vs francis arguments from before somehow measuring the quality of ice time as you suggest would be useless it would be a better stat for evaluating coaching ie are the players given quality ice time actually their talented ones a very good player could be given low amounts of quality ice time because of team depth or a stupid coach who doesn t recognize his talent and a very bad player could be given lots of quality ice time because of a lack of team depth or a stupid coach that thinks he is an effective player this stat would be much more flawed than and almost no conclusions could be drawn regarding player talent is a useful stat it is quite useful in evaluating player talent you are the one displaying ignorance because of your unwillingness to see that being on the ice when goals are scored but not when they are allowed is a very positive thing and should be evaluated as such gregmeister
rec.sport.hockey	re wc results april in article apr ericsson se etxonss ufsa ericsson se staffan axelsson writes world championships in germany is there any games being shown here in the us from the wc thanks mc
rec.sport.hockey	re abc coverage gerald olchowy writes clement although he has a pleasant personality aggravatingly pleasant in my opinion is a terrible analyst because he is almost alway wrong the prototypical example being new jersey s first goal last sunday i grew up with dick irvin doing color beside danny gallivan i knew did irvin dick irvin was a friend of mine bill clement you aren t any dick irvin as long as the teams involved do not include the us national team or the new york rangers i d take john davidson over bill clement any day personality means something to me that is exactly why i like clement and emrick on the other hand jd is a pompous bull headed arrogant know it all he s a real turn off which is exactly what i do when he s on one complaint i do have about clement is that he sometimes talks too much if i wanted that i d listen to tim mcgarver doing a baseball game mom
rec.sport.hockey	let s go buffalo you know i never really appreciated them before
rec.sport.hockey	re wirtz is a weenie from dean in other tv news the penguins announced yesterday that they will have fewer broadcast tv games and will have games on some sort of subscription pay per view system yuck this is incorrect this year the pens had games on free tv and games on ppv next year they will have games on free tv and on a subscription basis you actually get more free game than last year and there will be no more radio only games yes you re right after going home and reading the paper i got the full details that s what i get for making a post based on wduq s news i should know by now they get just about every sports related item wrong ralph
rec.sport.hockey	don cherry help me out here as a person who has rarely even seen don cherry and doesn t know anything about him i don t know whether it is just this area pittsburgh of the usa that is deprived of his broadcasts or whether he s a canadian thing altogether seriously what is he all about i know he was a coach at one time and from the volume of posts about him someone surely is getting a steady diet of him somehow but my question is what is the deal with him secondly are the comments of his that i read about on the net merely flame bait or do people actually take him seriously i gotta tell you from what i see he really sounds like an ass let me know maybe i m missing something
rec.sport.hockey	new div ncaa teams it was great to hear that umass is bringing back hockey it reminded me that a couple of years ago there was talk that both bimidgi sp and mankato state trying to upgrade their programs to div status i also seem to remember that they had some trouble with new ncaa rule about just who was allowed to compete at the div level was that ever resolved also i was just wondering if there is any college hockey east of colorado alaska excepted with the new popularity of hockey on the west coast i would expect there to be some interest building at the collegiate levels too anyone heard anything james old e mail jold vma cc nd edu
rec.sport.hockey	re truly a sad day for hockey mom writes i fear that within the next decade or so the only professional sports team left in pittsburgh will be the steelers perish the thought but you know you may be right at least as far as major league professional sports teams go they all seem to be becoming big money games much more so than at any previous time to think that if i am ever able to move back home several years from now all that may be there is an ahl team at best sigh the interesting thing is that the nhl is also expanding at the same time as it is dramatically increasing the amount of money needed to operate a team this would seem to indicate that there s a big shake out about to occur in the next few years unless player salaries can somehow be brought under control frankly i don t see how the nhl s current drive for expansion is supportable under its current operating conditions if revenue sharing and a salary cap don t come into the nhl soon look out steve
rec.sport.hockey	stats for hockey pool i m the keeper of the stats for a family hockey pool and i m looking for daily weekly email servers for playoff stats i ve connected with the servers at j militzok skidmore edu and wilson cs ucf edu i m still sorting these two out are there others email please as my site doesn t get this group thanks rick rick emma panam wimsey bc ca rick emma tfbbs wimsey bc ca
rec.sport.hockey	re nhl team captains quoting cire y trehguad to all cyt michael collingridge writes and while we are on the subject has a captain ever been traded resigned or been striped of his title during the season any other team captain trivia would be appreciated cyt cyt wasn t ron francis captain of the whalers when he was traded to cyt pittsburgh cyt and rick tochett was the captain of the flyers when traded to the pens cyt recently cyt caleb cyt and let us not forget that the new jersey devils traded cyt captain kirk muller for stephen richer and chorske cyt man i hated that trade well as for team captains being traded in there first year in the nhl the edmonton oilers traded their captain ron chiperfield to the quebec nordique right at the trading deadline for goaltender ron lowe in their second year of existence the edmonton oilers again right at the trade deadline traded their captain this time b j mcdonald to the vancouver canucks along with the rights to winger ken berry for garry lariviere and the rights to lars gunner petterson as for more captain trivia the next edmonton captain was lee fogilin who was later traded to the buffalo sabres after him was wayne gretzky who was traded to l a then came kevin low who only this year was traded to the n y rangers so that every captain the edmonton oilers have had has been traded the present captain is craig mctavish and we ll just have to wait and see well talk to you later steve answers short correct dumb looks are still free blue wave qwk v
rec.sport.hockey	re goodbye good riddance get lost stars in article dt b w w sms business uwo ca s lawren sms business uwo ca stephen lawrence writes goodbye minnesota you never earned the right to have an nhl franchise in the first place whatta weird town whatta ass go skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite go braves an effect on you mike patton faith no more go hornets go capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd a prism gatech edu
rec.sport.hockey	re nhlpa poll partial stats results all these people who send in their polls should take a closer look at njd they are a very deep team with two very capable goalies and excellent forwards and defensemen shooter in richer an all around do it all in todd chef stasny master of a thousand dishes power play captain stevens take a look at the numbers or play with them and see for yourselves
rec.sport.hockey	detroit playoff tradition way back in the early years s it took wins to garner the stanley cup soooooo a couple of local fish mongers local to the joe louis arena that is started the tradition of throwing an octopi onto the ice with every win after each victory one leg would be severed before the octopus found its way to the ice they are dead by the way it was a brilliant marketing strategy to shore up the demand for one of their least popular products hope this helps j lange
rec.sport.hockey	roger maynard does anyone recieve annoying email from roger maynard whenever they post an article telling them to leave him alon and stop posting to the group these emails are filled with insults more than are usual in roger s posts and have little if any hockey info i have recieved two in the last days i am just wondering if i am special or roger trys to bully everyone who disagrees with him gregmeister obligatory hockey comment it is highly unlikely that the maple leafs will even get out of their division
rec.sport.hockey	re devils and islanders tiebreaker in article c lfa e murdoch acc virginia edu cal d csissun ee virginia edu craig allen lorie writes according to the hockey gurus over at espn should the islanders win tonite the two teams will have the same record but the devils will be playing the penguins this is because the islanders have won the season series against the devils i think the rules for deciding a tie breaker include season series goals against goals for in this order correct me if i m wrong anyone have anything to add i thought it was wins goals for gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re finland sweden vs nhl teams was helsinki stockholm nhl expansion in apr ousrvr oulu fi mep phoenix oulu fi marko poutiainen writes finland d jyrki lumme d teppo numminen d peter ahola well well they don t like our defenders mainly lumme and numminen about is correct for numminen and lumme r teemu selanne compared to kurri selanne s points are too high lets make it or no kurri s points are too low for kurri and for sel nne well in the canada cup and world championships largely due to the efforts of markus ketterer the goalie or the players listed above and luck there s presumably a lot of decent players in finland that wouldn t be superstars at the highest level but still valuable role players however my guess would be that the finnish canada cup team would be a team in the nhl wow now it looks like you don t like our players what about guys like nieminen jutila riihijarvi varvio laukkanen makela keskinen and even if he is aging ruotsalainen the main difference between finnish and north american players is that our players tend to be better in the larger rink the canadian defenders are usually slower that defenders in europe and i think that there was more in our success than ketterer and luck though they helped i think that the main reason was that the team worked well together that s true game is so different here in europe compared to nhl north ame ricans are better in small rinks and europeans in large rinks an average european player from sweden finland russian or tsech slovakia is a better skater and puckhandler than his nhl colleague especially defenders in nhl are mainly slow and clumsy sel nne has also said that in the finnish sm league game is more based on skill than in nhl in finland he couldn t get so many breakaways because defenders here are an average much better skaters than in nhl also alpo suhonen said that in nhl sel nne s speed accentuates because of clumsy defensemen i have to admit that the best players come from canada but those regulars aren t as skilful as regulars in the best european leagues also top europeans are in the same level as the best north americans except lemieux is in the class of his own tommi
rec.sport.hockey	re rumour keenan signs with rangers in article apr news columbia edu gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes interestingly keenan s co coach or is it his number one on team canada at the world championships is roger neilsen but ultimately their hockey philosophies are like night and day keenan believes in pressuring the opposition and taking the initiative within the limits of his system while roger has a reactive hockey philosophy which is why messier will be able to and has played for keenan but thought roger s way was a sure loser it d be interesting if the rangers call in the balance of neilsen s contract to be keenan s assistant roger did do a very good job with the mediocre players just as he handled the cinderella canucks of years ago but his mistake was playing the rangers like those canucks last may roger is a great assistant coach but considering what must be bad blood between nielson and messier it would be a mistake to bring him back even in that role gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re plus minus stat it is meaningless to compare one player s plus minus statistic with another players out of the context of the role and the playing time of the players involved to compare jagr s and francis s plus minus is ridiculous and absurd gerald
rec.sport.hockey	re detroit playoff tradition in article apr reg triumf ca lange reg triumf ca threading the canadian tapestry writes way back in the early years s it took wins to garner the stanley cup soooooo a couple of local fish mongers local to the joe louis arena that is started the tradition of throwing an octopi onto the ice with every win after each victory one leg would be severed before the octopus found its way to the ice they are dead by the way it was a brilliant marketing strategy to shore up the demand for one of their least popular products hope this helps j lange local to the joe louis arena you mean local to olympia stadium where red wings games were played until fairly recently early s comes to mind as far as i know the rest of the post is basically correct if what you meant by local was simply detroit and i m being incredibly picky okay sorry about that david nichols senior statistical support specialist spss inc phone internet nichols spss com fax any correlation between my views and those of spss is strictly due to chance
rec.sport.hockey	re goalie mask update in article c l ec f v acsu buffalo edu hammerl acsu buffalo edu valerie s hammerl writes in article hydra gatech edu gtd a prism gatech edu hrivnak writes here are the results after three days of voting remember pts for st for nd and for rd also you can still turn in votes and if the guy isn t a regular goalie or he is retired please include the team thanks for your time and keep on sending in those votes glenn healy nyi tommy soderstron ray leblanc usa soderstrom plays with philly but he doesn t have a moulded mask he s got the helmet and cage variety in white or at least that s what he wore thirteen hours ago yeah but soderstrom s mask has always appeared to be a lot bigger than the average helmet and cage variety it has a certain appeal on its own josh valerie hammerl some days i have to remind him he s not hammerl acsu buffalo edu mario lemieux herb brooks on claude acscvjh ubms cc buffalo edu lemieux top scorer for the devils but v pwwpz ubvms cc buffalo edu known for taking dumb penalties
rec.sport.hockey	stop maynard bashing was re roger maynard in article apr sol uvic ca gballent hudson uvic ca writes does anyone recieve annoying email from roger maynard whenever they post an article telling them to leave him alon and stop posting to the group these emails are filled with insults more than are usual in roger s posts and have little if any hockey info i have recieved two in the last days i am just wondering if i am special or roger trys to bully everyone who disagrees with him gregmeister you can t be serious i and many of my colleagues have not received any bad e mails from roger in fact roger happens to have answered most if not all of my hockey questions and curiosities so before you start flaming at me or roger better re consider your nasty attitude towards roger and the like steve lee university of western ontario london canada lee obelix gaul csd uwo ca
rec.sport.hockey	re flames question in article c htrb ice ccu umanitoba ca clhawth ccu umanitoba ca timothy chesley writes i heard a little while back that gary roberts would be returning to play in calgary s last regular season game can anybody confirm this he ll be a big help to the flames in the playoffs and may change my playoff pool strategy roberts played in last night game against the sharks and got a goal th and an assist this definitely bolsters calgary s chances in the playoffs rahim hirji rahim hirji life is what happens while you are actuarial science making other plans rhirji descartes uwaterloo ca university of waterloo
rec.sport.hockey	re tv schedule for next week jpc philabs philips com john p curcio writes mmb lamar colostate edu michael burger writes united states tv schedule april devils islanders at pittsburgh est abc april st louis at chicago cdt abc april los angeles at calgary pdt abc okay here s the down side of the espn deal no additional coverage with a split contract sca could have at least gotten at leftovers like canucks jets caps whoever and red wings leafs or whoever else is playing april devils islanders at pittsburgh espn april tba espn april tba espn does anyone know if there will be alternate games in cities where local broadcast rights are being protected for our area islanders devils it s likely to be the bruins since the other adams series is montreal quebec i d prefer the latter myself i m under the impression that the abc deal overrides the local deals but if st louis at chicago pops up we ll know gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
rec.sport.hockey	re bruins pens the ulf neeley fight oh excuse me for wasting the bandwidth but i was referring to the original incident not the recent skirmish which occurred this past month tom huot huot cray com
rec.sport.hockey	cut vukota and pilon i have been to all isles caps tilts at the crap centre this year all isles wins and there is no justification for vukota and pilon to play for the isles vukota is absolutely the worst puck handler in the world he couldn t hit a bull in the ass with a banjo al must remember a few years back when mick scored goals in one period against the caps in a isles win i was there and was astonished as was the rest of the crowd wake up al years later he s gotten worse he s a cheap shot artist and always ends up getting stupid senseless penalties i think he would make a good police officier as for pilon he can t carry the puck out to center ice by himself he either makes a bad pass resulting in a turnover or he attempts to bring the puck towards the neutral zone and skates right into an opposing skater he can t stay on his skates with most forwards or centers he either falls down or committs a penalty call up somebody from capital district al as far as the playoffs the isles are as difficult to figure out as the caps two good teams with talent but so inconsistent they should meet in the first round the isles seem to play up to the level of their competition so they should play well against jersey tonite it ll probably be another tight goal game as the last games hve been for the isles i wish when the get a lead they could continue to pour it on instead of settling back into a defensive shell and letting the opposition get back in the game al must understand he can t do with this team what he did with the isles maybe al should got to where is bobby nystrom clark gilles john tonelli these are the kind of young minds we need behing the bench fire al john scialdone scialdone nssdca gsfc nasa gov when your ship comes in first man takes the sail
rec.sport.hockey	re goalie mask poll in article hydra gatech edu gtd a prism gatech edu hrivnak writes here is an update on the goalie mask poll first since so many people gave me their best i decided to give pts for their favorite pts for nd for rd if you e mailed a response with only one i gave it pts please feel free to send me your other favorites if you only sent one before also votes are still welcome any mask you like will do as i have received votes for players not in the nhl please mention what team they play for though so here are the up to date results so far my vote goes to andy moog st belfour nd vanbiesbrouck rd the bruin s are hot at just the right time rich beskosty rbeskost east sun com
rec.sport.hockey	re ulf and all you should be ashamed to call yourself an ulf samuelson fan anybody who plays the way he does does not belong in the nhl there have been cheap shot artists through the history of the game but a lot of them have been talanted players bobby clarke kenny linsemen pie mckenzie chris chelios etc but nobody has been out right as dirty a cheapshot coward as ulf violence in hockey has got to be curbed and players like should have been a women samuelson don t belong when players like ulf who s main purpose is to injure the better players in the league is allowed to continue and the league won t stop it the players should a christian pro aluminum stick directed at his ugly head should do the trick nicely if the bruins get a chance to meet pittsburgh in the near future you can bet neely will have his day the sight of watching ulf turtle up like the coward he is is worth almost as much as a stanely cup this wimp of a player almost ruined the career of one the best right wingers in the game if you are to remove ulf samuelson from the lineup the penguins would not even notice he s gone he s an eyesore on the game of hockey rich
rec.sport.hockey	re stop maynard bashing was re roger maynard in apr julian uwo ca lee gaul csd uwo ca steve lee writes in article apr sol uvic ca gballent hudson uvic ca writes does anyone recieve annoying email from roger maynard whenever they post an article telling them to leave him alon and stop posting to the group these emails are filled with insults more than are usual in roger s posts and have little if any hockey info i have recieved two in the last days i am just wondering if i am special or roger trys to bully everyone who disagrees with him gregmeister you can t be serious i and many of my colleagues have not received any bad e mails from roger in fact roger happens to have answered most if not all of my hockey questions and curiosities so before you start flaming at me or roger better re consider your nasty attitude towards roger and the like steve lee university of western ontario london canada lee obelix gaul csd uwo ca speaking of roger where is his comments from last nights game you have to admit he can make a nothing game sound like it was game of the stanley cup finals roger pushes the leafs so much it even bothers me a long time supporter but he does have a good overall idea of the game wow i just gave r m a compliment guess i better stop it with the rye water before i give him another
rec.sport.hockey	re bruins vs canadiens in article apr rose com jack petrilli rose com jack petrilli writes so i don t know what you mean by parity boston never was is not now and never will be as good an organization as the montreal canadiens never was probably is not now debatable what other valid test can you think of besides the final standings or divisional playoff winner what do you propose a worthless vote like they do in college football what a joke you boston fans make me laugh you re going crazy based on a very recent boston domination over montreal in the playoffs i mean how many cups has boston won compared to montreal s and who do you think is going to win the next cup between the teams montreal or boston you know sinden s going to find some way of screwing up even this good boston team he ll fire suter or trade away a vital star admittedly his last few trades have been good ones but how long before his luck runs out and he starts making esposito for ratelle type trades again if i remember right brad park was also involved in that trade he wasn t all that bad a hockey player but let s look at some of sinden s trades over the years for rick middleton rangers i don t know who sinden gave up for middle ton so i ll call this one a barry pederson for cam neely canucks any questions greg hawgood for vladimir ruzicka oilers didja see that one rosie roofed against roy in last year s playoffs courtnall ranford for andy moog oilers a wash moog is a good goaltender ranford burned boston in the finals in his first year and courtnall always seems to get his points anyone in vancouver care to comment on courtnall as a defensive liability ken linseman for dave poulin flyers any more questions janney quintal for adam oates blues janney is an enormous talent and a personable guy the the bruins play in adam s division enough said so even if you count the esposito vadnais ratelle park i don t remember who else joe zanussi trade as a double minus harry the horse trader comes out on top i submit that the bruins are always good because of harry not in spite of him btw do you really think the habs will bounce back next season i ll bet they finish fourth or fifth in the conference behind any of the following pittsburgh quebec boston washington islanders someone correct me if these five teams will not be in montreal s conference in summary things look bleak for the habs at least in the near future i suspect that the next team from la belle province to win the cup will be that team that lindros didn t want to play for i admit that i ve been suffering lately with the boston gets hot while montreal swans in the playoffs type years but i do have the sure knowledge that the montreal braintrust will keep plugging away until they hit the right formula for yet another cup whereas if i were a boston fan i d have this kind of despair that as long as harry sinden is running the show the bruins will always be good but never good enough jack dan lyddy daniell cory berkeley edu university of california at berkeley my two favorite hockey teams the boston bruins whoever s playing pittsburgh
rec.sport.hockey	re plus minus stat brad gibson gibson nukta geop ubc ca wrote much text deleted plus minus it is the most misleading hockey stat available not necessarily the most misleading but you are right it definitely needs to be taken in the proper perspective a shining example is if you look at the penguins individual you will find very few minuses that only makes common sense since they didn t lose many games until the nhl publishes a more useful quantifiable statistic including ice time per game and some measure of its quality i e is the player put out in key situations like protecting a lead late in the game is he matched up against the other team s top one or two lines short handed etc i would much rather see the disappear altogether instead of having its dubious merits trumpeted by those with little understanding of its implications unfortunately you will need to keep a ridiculous number of stats to really come up with a statistic which really shows a player s value let s just enjoy the game and not overanalyze it like i m doing now excuse me tom huot huot cray com
rec.sport.hockey	re plus minus stat gerald olchowy golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca wrote it is meaningless to compare one player s plus minus statistic with another players out of the context of the role and the playing time of the players involved to compare jagr s and francis s plus minus is ridiculous and absurd gerald thank you for putting this in perspective tom huot huot cray com
rec.sport.hockey	rangers are an embarrassment i can t believe that the ny rangers would force its players to go to binghamtom to play in the ahl playoffs instead of letting them represent their countries in the world championships anderrson and zubov are waiting for the nhl to make a decision to this while kovalev has given in and gone down to the minors the rangers are a disgrace ps it has been reported that neil smith was very much against the hiring of mike keenan how long will smith be in ny for the godfather
rec.sport.hockey	flyers notes the flyers blew a lead over the buffalo sabres in the second period but kevin dineen s th career hat trick powered them to their th consecutive win over the sabres who have now lost in a row alexander mogilny led the comeback scoring his th and th goals of the season which tied the game at in the nd period and in the rd tommy soderstrom stopped of shots on goal to improve his own record to as he was tested by mogilny and lafontaine all night roster move andre faust was once again recalled from hershey shawn cronin was a healthy scratch lines eklund lindros recchi beranek brind amour dineen lomakin butsayev conroy faust acton brown galley bowen yushkevich hawgood carkner mcgill tommy soderstrom game summary say if anybody from buffalo is reading this where did you people get that woman who sang the anthems we had to turn down the volume the flyers defense started out the game showing everybody why the flyers have been shutting teams out lately by holding the sabres to only shots in the first period they then showed everybody why they will be playing golf sunday when they gave up shots in the last two periods maybe tommy told them that he was getting bored back there mark recchi opened the scoring so fast that if you blinked you missed it after buffalo won the faceoff and dumped tommy wrapped the puck around the boards to eric way up on his left eric dropped it to galley and he sent it ahead to recchi steaming out of the zone mark skated into the center circle passed the puck to himself through the legs of richard smehlik skated around him and in on fuhr smehlik was pulling at him all the way through the zone with his stick recchi drifted right drifted back left and slid the puck back to the right past fuhr for a flyers lead at it was so beautiful eric and garry should turn down their assists the flyers kept the pressure on fuhr for a while after that but he was strong and kept the flyers from doing further damage the game then became a defensive struggle for a while the sabres got the first chance on the power play when terry carkner took a boarding minor at for crunching dale hawerchuk into the boards in the flyers zone lafontaine got the only scoring chance and not a terribly good one as the flyers smothered the sabres power play mogilny got a post after it was over the th consecutive penalty kill for the flyers keith carney took a holding penalty at for taking down mark recchi to give the flyers a power play the best penalty killing team in the league didn t allow the flyers a shot on goal although the flyers did create a good scoring chance for lindros who partially fanned on his shot towards the end of the period the play started going end to end but everybody kept missing the net greg hawgood took an interference penalty at to give the sabres another power play but they couldn t get anything going and the fans expressed their displeasure particularly when they iced the puck shots were buffalo after the flyers had led at one point mike emrick interviewed flyers president jay snider between periods jay was disappointed to not make the playoffs but not discouraged this was considered a rebuilding year after the trade and he seemed very happy with the way the season went when asked if he agonized over the trade he said that it was russ farwell s trade and not his that it only was an issue for him and ed snider as far as the money but yes there was some agonizing and they d do it all over again when asked how the coaching situation would be handled for next year he said that it s russ call and russ will evaluate things at the end of the season he feels that they re years away from a shot at the cup he expects to get into the playoffs next year have a shot at a division title the following year and a shot at the finals the year after that this based on the current level of play and anticipated improvements over the summer he s very happy with the re alignment he called it outstanding happy with the current expansion feels that the talent pool is big enough with the unflux of europeans but feels that they must make sure existing franchises are stable seemed to like the idea of playing in the olympics booo but said that there was a definite split among owners and that this certainly would only happen in four years if there was a consensus the sabres gave the flyers their second power play of the game when brad may took a tripping penalty at of the second the flyers had a little trouble getting started but eventually did hawgood took a pass as he was moving throug the neutral zone and handed the puck to eklund just outside the sabres blue line along the right boards eklund carried into the zone nad passed across to dineen who tried a one timer from between the blue line and the top of the left circle he half fanned on it and sent the puck trickling through the slot fuhr didn t know where it was though and hawgood won the race to it and flipped it into essentially an open net at then mogilny on a breakaway he slipped through two flyers at the blue line and went in on soderstrom he went with the backhander but soderstrom was all over it the flyers then took some bad discipline type penalties that really hurt them viacheslav butsayev took a double minor for roughing and high sticking when barnaby got under his skin and drew one minor then according to gary dornhoefer took a dive to get the other there was no video at the sabres coudln t get started ryan mcgill poked at the puck just after a sabre carried into the flyers zone and after a bunch of people poked at it dineen emerged with it and headed the other way it started out a on but brind amour hustled ahead to make it a on and back off the defenseman dineen let it rip from the top of the right circle to make it flyers at that was all for fuhr john muckler sent in dominik hasek to take over but the sabres still had lots of power play time again they took some time to just get into the flyers zone and when they finally did the flyers were all over them boos began to ring through the building but they finally got through soderstrom on an ugly goal smehlik took a shot from the top of the zone that missed and kicked out to hawerchuk in the slot hawerchuk tried a backhander as he skated towards the goal line to the right as galley dove down to block it mistake he should have let soderstrom handle the backhander and worried about a the rebound or b barnaby who was camped behind the goal line right next to the net well the rebound dropped right next to soderstrom and mistake galley just laid there and watched barnaby get three hacks at the puck before he finally pushed it through the goalie he didn t even swing his stick out to try and knock the puck away with the goal at two streaks end for the flyers of shutout hockey and straight penalty kills lindros put them right back on the power play at with a high sticking minor i think it was barnaby again this time the sabres were able to get set up quickly but couldn t get too much quality on goal the sabres continued to keep the puck in the flyers end for a while after the power play ended things evetually settled down but then the other very bad penalty mcgill allowed barnaby to get under his skin and slashed his stick just before a faceoff the gloves were dropped and mcgill started pounding the crap out of him but during the fight he gave barnaby a head butt with his helmet and that meant a match penalty for slashing fighting and for the major minutes of power play time for the sabres at barnaby only got the flyers were keeping them at bay for a while but there was only so long they could do that after a couple of good sabre chances audette handed to ledyard at the point and ledyard sent a drive that was knocked down by soderstrom lafontaine whacked at the bouncing puck from the left side of the net and knocked it over to randy wood at the right soderstrom had moved over to play lafontaine and since yushkevich and carkner were waving at the puck instead of picking up men wood just slid it into the empty net at to close the flyers lead to lafontaine was actually trying to put it on net but half fanned on it and got a break the flyers then got some shorthanded pressure in the sabres zone but hasek was strong finally it was keith carney passing ahead to hawerchuk into the neutral zone and hawerchuk sent a good backhand pass to mogilny at the flyers blue line another mini breakaway for mogilny he elected to shoot from the left circle and he threaded the needle to get it just inside the far post at for his th of the season ironically the youth hockey tip between the st and second period was tommy soderstrom talking about cutting off angles that was all in the nd shots were sabres into the rd period and pelle eklund blew a golden opportunity to get the flyers the lead back a on acton with the puck he dropped to eklund in the slot and eklund held the puck as he slid through the left circle until he had almost no angle at all to shoot from when he finally did shoot he hit the far post that was still during the carryover power play time than an incredible almost goal randy wood skated around recchi and hawgood untouched into soderstrom soderstrom goes down wood pokes the puck under soderstrom and a black object hits the back of the net red light comes on horn sounds crowd cheers but up to the video replay booth for some strange reason and in the meantime emrick and dornhoefer try to figure out what they could be reviewing well it turns out that it was the taped up stick blade that went into the net not the puck emrick mentions that one of the criteria for scoring a goal is that the puck must go into the net dave hannan then took out recchi and got a holding minor at the flyers could not get anything going at all they finally got set up way through but were kept on the perimeter as time ran out beranek stripped the puck from a sabre in the offensive zone along the right boards and passed it across to eklund at the top of the left circle eklund saw dineen heading at the net just inside the right circle and passed through to him dineen fumbled the pass but twice directed it at hasek and eklund swooped in and chipped the bouncing puck over the goalie for his th at flyers but the sabres came right back lafontaine picked up the puck in his offensive left corner and slid it to bob erry behind the flyers net erry started to skate out but then just dropped the puck back to nobody behind the net mogilny flew in skated around and stuffed it through soderstrom s hole for his th at to tie the game at then hawerchuk took a retaliatory roughing penalty at the flyers set up in the sabres zone and stayed there off a faceoff high in the sabres zone in the middle while brind amour wrestled for the puck dineen snuck through the line and wristed a perfect shot low to hasek s glove side at play started to go back and forth until hawgood took a roughing penalty at the flyers dumped the puck into the sabres zone brind amour and ledyard went after it and rod got the puck he backed away from the right boards skated to the right faceoff dot and passed between his legs to dineen crashing through the slot all by himself dineen waited patiently and lifted it over the blocker of hasek for a flyers lead at rd hat trick of the season for dineen th of his career nd shorthanded goal of the game for him th of the season then carney took a tripping penalty at to kill the rest of the sabres power play not much action on the on and the sabres got most of the chances on the flyers resulting power play play went end to end for quite a while after that and both goalies had to make some big saves the sabres weren t able to pull hasek as time was running out as the flyers wouldn t allow any consistant possession for the sabres finally as time was running out ken sutton misplayed the puck in his own left corner and brind amour stripped it away from him he pulled away and found dineen on the other side of the left circle and dineen found acton at the right of hasek he slid the puck between two sabres defenders and acton chipped it back to the far side of hasek for his th of the season at on his th birthday that was all the scoring shots were buffalo and the ice was showered with plastic drinking mugs handed out before the game so another strong game from tommy soderstrom who hadn t been tested much in his last couple of starts kevin dineen has a career high point night unless he had a better night earlier in the season but i don t think so the flyers longest winning streak in years goals for only against with three shutouts eric lindros is th in league with even strength goals despite missing games with injury points out of th clinched th place since the rangers lose the tie breaker a couple misc notes forget the mike keenan rumors there will be a press conference tommorrow to announce that he will be head coach of the new york rangers next year in the last notes i mentioned that garry galley won the barry ashbee award but i failed to mention that the award is for the best defenseman the times of trenton has reported that a preeminent specialist from oklahoma has looked over tommy soderstrom s medical record and determined that no further tests are necessary in the near future same paper had a blurb about bill dineen being asked about whether or not he expected to be back next year his response was that he wants to come back he feels he did a good job this year but that he would cheerfully accept a role scouting if farwell didn t want him back flyers team record watch eric lindros goals assists points rookie records club record goals club record points eric lindros dave poulin brian propp brian propp ron flockhart eric lindros dave poulin ron flockhart bill barber pelle eklund mark recchi goals assists points club record goals club record points reggie leach mark recchi tim kerr bobby clarke tim kerr bobby clarke mark recchi bill barber rick macliesh bobby clarke bill barber rick macliesh reggie leach more than games flyers career years player points best prior season mark recchi penguins rod brind amour flyers garry galley kings brent fedyk red wings that s all for now pete clark jr rsh flyers contact and mailing list owner
rec.sport.hockey	re ulf and all richard wernick richard amc com wrote you should be ashamed to call yourself an ulf samuelson fan anybody who plays the way he does does not belong in the nhl there have been cheap shot artists through the history of the game but a lot of them have been talanted players bobby clarke kenny linsemen pie mckenzie chris chelios etc but nobody has been out right as dirty a cheapshot coward as ulf violence in hockey has got to be curbed and players like should have been a women samuelson don t belong when players like ulf who s main purpose is to injure the better players in the league is allowed to continue and the league won t stop it the players should a christian pro aluminum stick directed at his ugly head should do the trick nicely if the bruins get a chance to meet pittsburgh in the near future you can bet neely will have his day the sight of watching ulf turtle up like the coward he is is worth almost as much as a stanely cup this wimp of a player almost ruined the career of one the best right wingers in the game if you are to remove ulf samuelson from the lineup the penguins would not even notice he s gone he s an eyesore on the game of hockey rich thank you for your extremely lucid and well thought out observation now when you get back on your medication please let us know how you are feeling thank you tom huot huot cray com
rec.sport.hockey	re goodbye good riddance get lost stars stephen lawrence s lawren sms business uwo ca wrote goodbye minnesota you never earned the right to have an nhl franchise in the first place hope you enjoy your twin city wide mania for high school hockey hey by the way my old pee wee team is having a reunion in regina care to come up and film the event yee haa golden gophers whatta weird town s lawren sms business uwo ca stephen lawrence western business school london ontario this is the second posting of this kind from an idiot at a business school in canada what is your problem up there anyway is this what they teach you in business school in canada tom huot huot cray com
rec.sport.hockey	re goalie mask update in article hydra gatech edu gtd a prism gatech edu hrivnak writes here are the results after three days of voting remember pts for st for nd and for rd also you can still turn in votes and if the guy isn t a regular goalie or he is retired please include the team thanks for your time and keep on sending in those votes player team pts votes brian hayward san jose andy moog boston curtis joseph st louis ed belfour chicago gerry cheevers boston retired manon rheaume atlanta ihl ron hextall quebec don beaupre washington others receiving vote artus irbe sj tim cheveldae det clint malarchuck buf sd ihl grant fuhr buf rick wamsley tor ret jon casey minn john vanbiesbrouck nyr ken dryden mon ret bob essensa win mike vernon cal glenn healy nyi tommy soderstron ray leblanc usa c mon tommy soderstrom is having a fine rookie i think he s a rookie season with the flyers i m sure most of you knew that already but just in case john p jfp acad drake edu a longtime but realistic ranger fan who s willing to admit that the rangers sucked big time this year they don t even deserve the luxury of a nice golf course with a warm breeze god talk about underachievers mike keenan we re waiting for you go skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite go braves an effect on you mike patton faith no more go hornets go capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd a prism gatech edu
rec.sport.hockey	sharks review part defensemen peter ahola season nd acquired trade with pittsburgh for future considerations grade i b it is way too early to tell about ahola who was acquired probably because the penguins figured that they would lose him in the expansion draft ahola had only played games this season i think it s actually less the san jose mercury news may be in err here of them with the sharks in the games he has played he appeared quite solid defensively although he hasn t been spectacular and his offense isn t anything to write home about points it s even possible that the trade may be for future considerations which turn out to be peter ahola doug wilson season th acquired trade with chicago for rw kerry toporowski and nd round pick in entry draft grade i b i have often been accused of overly down on wilson i may have had too high expectations for him but his legs knees et al are giving out nevertheless when he was playing he exhibited a strong shooting and playmaking abilities even if he has lost a step on defense which unfortunately he demonstrated this year as well as at times he was slow to catch the opponent forwards and his offensive output was only good enough for nd place on the team points in games but next year which may be wilson s last if he can stay healthy he can still be a contributor dean kolstad season nd acquired from minnesota in dispersal draft grade i c d it s probably somewhat unfair for me to judge kolstad on just a handful of games forgetting exact number but no more than but at age he s quickly running out of time if he wants to make it to the nhl in those games he did not impress anyone after generating shots in the first period of the first game he played he scored just points in his tenure up here with the sharks and was even less impressive defensively as he appeared awkward with his movement and was prone to giveaways he needs to make a leap in his level of performance to have any chance of making the team pat macleod season nd acquired from minnesota in dispersal draft grade i macleod was on the roster a lot longer than kolstad but it appears to my memory that he played less than kolstad because the sharks were reluctant to use him but were even more reluctant to send him to the minors figuring that he wouldn t clear waivers in fact he has played the past weeks with kansas city but is still technically there on a rehabilitation assignment a rehab assignment that will include him playing in the turner cup playoffs since he has played so little i can t even give a tentative grade on him but he demonstrated last year excellent offensive skills but terrible defensive skills tom pederson season st acquired from minnesota in dispersal draft grade i b called up in the middle of the season when the defensive corps was decimated by injuries pederson impressed many sharks fan here on net including yours truly he demonstrated very good offensive skills scoring points in games however his size lbs is of concern and soon after he began to shine offensive did teams begin to push him around physically on both sides of the ice although he had appeared fearless in his approach but to be successful he probably needs to bulk up to have a fighting chance on surviving against some of the bigger players in the league claudio scremin season st acquired from minnesota in dispersal draft grade i d d he played all of games in the league this year but was thoroughly umimpressive just as he was at the end of last season again it may be a small sample but just as in the case of kolstad scremin at age is quickly running out of time he was not a contributor on either offense or defense in the games he played with the sharks the only notable thing that will go down in scremin s entry of league stats is probably the fact that he was once traded for now capitals goaltender don beaupre go calgary flames al macinnis for norris gary roberts for hart and smythe go edmonton oilers go for playoffs next year stay in edmonton nelson lu claudius leland stanford edu rec sport hockey contact for the san jose sharks
rec.sport.hockey	dear montana pinetree org re hockey pool hi there i can t seem to get mail to you can you tell me your entire adress or even your dotted decimal address ie thanks rocket calvin cs unb ca maurice richard
rec.sport.hockey	stan fischler keenan stuff the keenan hiring is precipitated by the loss of an anticipated m in playoff revenue and fears of losing season ticket holders plus paramount chief stan jaffe s chip against the flyers over l affaire lindros last autumn add to this that neilsen might return as an assistant coach gerald what d i say earlier today and roger conferred with jaffe on the hiring this hiring by jaffe went over the head of msg inc par subsidiary head bob gutkowski and over the head and the protests of pres gm neil smith msg is making the announcement on saturday to get back at the islanders for making the playoffs i e steal the press flyers owner ed snyder is livid and beside himself over this keenan will make up to yr gary bettman has appointed an independent consul to look at gil stein s admission into the hall of fame new crease colours rather than blue the oilers will charge to eat in the press room next year gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
rec.sport.hockey	playoff pool rule revision well i will have to change the scoring on my playoff pool unfortunately i don t have time right now but i will certainly post the new scoring rules by tomorrow does it matter no you ll enter anyway good keith keller let s go rangers let s go quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs when i want your opinion i ll give it to you
rec.sport.hockey	re keenan signs with the rangers in article apr ns cc lehigh edu cpc ns cc lehigh edu connin patrick colgain writes just heard on the news that mike keenan formerly of the blackhawks flyers and general of a siberian prison has just signed to coach the rangers the rangers who won the president s cup last year have slipped just a bit at the end of the season and are destined to finish last behind the lowly flyers the flyers fans are going to be disappointed on keenans decision because they were very interested in him oh well at least we got somebody the flyers wanted is this really true i have not been keeping up with any news if it is what s the deal with neil smith is he gone too keith keller let s go rangers let s go quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs when i want your opinion i ll give it to you
rec.sport.hockey	re devils and islanders tiebreaker in article c lfa e murdoch acc virginia edu cal d csissun ee virginia edu craig allen lorie writes according to the hockey gurus over at espn should the islanders win tonite the two teams will have the same record but the devils will be playing the penguins this is because the islanders have won the season series against the devils i think the rules for deciding a tie breaker include season series goals against goals for in this order correct me if i m wrong anyone have anything to add i think that they go to divisional records before goals but i could be wrong too keith keller let s go rangers let s go quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs when i want your opinion i ll give it to you
rec.sport.hockey	re hockey cards for sale in c h x dtw panix com formeza panix com the owl writes in case anyone missed it i m reposting this and i m also selling some other stuff i would like to sell a few of my hockey cards sets upperdeck hockey low s sets this is the first upperdeck hockey set made important rookie cards in it are mogilny roenick belfour recchi stevens jagr nolan nedved ricci sundin modano richter and others the beckett price is but i m charging to cover the shipping and packaging i ve sold one but i still have left for sale i also realize that is alot of money especially if you don t normally collect cards so if enough people are interested i ll break up the set into team sets i m not sure how much for each it would be nice to just sell them for each but then the people who get the whalers and devils note i m not bagging on these teams its just that they don t have alot of good rookie cards in this set would be subsidizing the people who want chicago or pittsburgh so i ll have to make it varialble pricing but most of them should be about or dollars score pinnacle candian sets this is a very nice set premium quality cards has second year cards of the players above plus bure potvin falloon and lindros value second year cards and the following rookie cards lidstrom kamensky zelepukin roussel konstantinov beckett price is but i have alot of these upperdeck czechoslovakian set this is a card set of the world junior tournament meant for sale in czechoslovakia but didn t sell well there and some of it filtere back in to the us the cards are bilingual has lachance kovalev and straka rookies if your interested please e mail me thanks ok someone asked for this one but he s from canada if he can get me the money in us funds then its his if not the first person who writes in will be the alternate also i would like to sell upperdeck pavel bure rookie cards note these are not in the ud low s set mentioned above each they are in the book but the goes for postage packaging and insurance and if there is something you want that you don t see e mail me i may have it or may be able to get it for you thanks the owl ted formeza formeza sun panix com
rec.sport.hockey	kings regular season schedule results los angeles kings schedule results tv preseason games of regular season and all playoffs on tv pt prime ticket ktla channel abc channel playoffs radio all regular and preseason games broadcast on the kings radio network southern california xtra am flagship simi valley kwnk am ankorage alaska kbyr am el centro kamp am fairbanks alaska kiak am hemet temecula khsj am lancaster palmdale kavl am palm desert knwz am paso robles kprl am reno nevada kply am sacramento ksac am san luis obispo kkal am santa clarita kbet am las vegas nevada keno am preseason september october la vs van vancouver pt la vs pit portland pts pt la vs pit tacoma pts la vs nyr san diego pts pt la vs nyr phoenix pts la vs sj sacramento pts la vs van the forum pts la vs sj the forum pts total regular season october la calgary ot pts pt la vs detroit pts pt la vs winnipeg pts pt la vs san jose pts pt la vs calgary pts pt la vs boston pts pt la calgary pts la winnipeg pts pt la minnesota pts la ny islanders pts pt la boston pts pt la hartford pts oct pts november la vs new jersey pts pt la vs buffalo pts pt la san jose pts no tv la winnipeg pts pt la vs vancouver pts pt la vs edmonton pts pt la vancouver pts pt la san jose pts pt la vs chicago pts pt la vs toronto pts pt la edmonton pts no tv la detroit pts pt la toronto pts pt nov pts year december la chicago pts at milwaukee pt la vs pittsburgh pts pt la vs hartford pts pt la vs montreal pts at phoenix pt la vs quebec pts pt la vs st louis pts pt la vs tampa bay pts pt la edmonton pts la calgary pts pt la vs vancouver pts pt la san jose pts la vs philadelphia pts pt la vancouver pts pt dec pts year january la vs montreal pts pt la vs tampa bay pts pt la winnipeg pts la chicago pts la ottawa pts pt la new jersey pts pt la vs winnipeg pts pt la edmonton pts pt la vs vancouver pts pt la vs ny rangers pts pt la vs san jose pts pt la vs calgary pts pt la vs chicago pts pt jan pts year february la quebec pts pt la montreal pts pt la vs edmonton pts pt la vs detroit pts pt la vs washington pts pt la vs vancouver pts pt la minnesota pts pt la chicago pts pt la washington pts pt la tampa bay pts pt la st louis pts pt la vs toronto pts pt feb pts year march la vs calgary pts pt la vs ottawa pts pt la vs edmonton pts pt la ny rangers pts pt la pittsburgh pts pt philadelphia postponed after period due to weather resch for buffalo postponed due to weather rescheduled for la buffalo pts pt la vs winnipeg pts pt la vs ny islanders pts pt la vs st louis pts pt la vancouver pts la edmonton pts la winnipeg pts pt la detroit pts la toronto pts pt mar pts year april la philadelphia pts pt rescheduled la vs minnesota pts pt la vs calgary pts pt la vs san jose pts pt la san jose ot pts pt la vancouver pts pt la vs vancouver pts pt apr pts year pts rd smythe th overall playoffs april calgary noon calgary pm pt vs calgary pm pt vs calgary noon calgary pm pt vs calgary pm pt may calgary pm pt all times listed are pacific time if necessary may be shown on abc if televised by prime ticket time is pm stan willis willis empire dnet hac com net contact l a kings talk with the l a kings mailing list kings cs stanford edu to subscribe or unsubscribe kings request cs stanford edu
rec.sport.hockey	possible canadian wc team this is an all point team for the canadian nhlers who are not playoff bound goalies bill ranford edmonton sean burke hartford peter sidorkiewicz ottawa defensemen zarley zalapski hartford norm maciver ottawa garry galley philadelphia greg hawgood philadelphia dave manson edmonton mark tinordi minnesota centers mark messier n y rangers geoff sanderson hartford brian bradley tampa bay rod brind amour philadelphia left wings adam graves n y rangers chris kontos tampa bay patrick poulin hartford shayne corson edmonton right wings pat verbeek hartford russ courtnall minnesota mike gartner n y rangers kevin dineen philadelphia go calgary flames al macinnis for norris gary roberts for hart and smythe go edmonton oilers go for playoffs next year stay in edmonton nelson lu claudius leland stanford edu rec sport hockey contact for the san jose sharks
rec.sport.hockey	re pens info needed in article apr csd newshost stanford edu nlu xenon stanford edu nelson lu writes in article apr jyu fi mikkot romulus math jyu fi mikko tarkiainen writes coaching news vasili tichonov ex assat to san jose sharks wow so that s probably the reason why current assistant coach drew ramenda hinted that he won t be back thanks for the news mikko can you or any of our finnish netters comment on tichonov the first time i heard this piece of news was on the post game radio interview here in jyvaskyla that was the bronze medal game in the sm liiga which tichonov s team porin assat the aces of town pori lost vasili the son of victor tichonov the famous soviet coach said that for a long time the sharks have been persuading him to take the assistant coach post but he wants to be the head coach where ever he goes he definitely won t be coaching assat anymore after three seasons i don t know why vasili is a good coach i believe assat was a good team produced many players to our national team assat wasn t a skilled team imho but they had the fighting spirit after all they butchered jokerit in the playoffs and gave hard time to tps the champs but assat wasn t consistent only when they were in the right mood they could beat any team in the sm liiga i am not sure about the deal with the sharks as i said he wants to be the head coach but he and the sharks are going to negotiate and decide during the wc i doubt that he will be the head coach but maybe they ll do some compromise could somebody post more information about vasili i know he was coaching in the former soviet league teams results his character as a coach
rec.sport.hockey	re devils and islanders tiebreaker in article c ldi u odin corp sgi com enolan sharkbite esd sgi com ed nolan says if the islanders beat the devils tonight they would finish with identical records who s the lucky team that gets to face the penguins in the opening round also can somebody list the rules for breaking ties as i recall the penguins and devils tied for third place last year with identical records as well poor devils they always get screwed yet they should put a scare into pittsburgh they always do pens in robbie po pgh penguins it won t be easy but it contact for the stanley cup will have greater rewards penn state lady lions champions mountains and valleys are rap psuvm psu edu straight wins better than nothing at all
rec.sport.hockey	re goodbye good riddance get lost stars in article dt b w w sms business uwo ca s lawren sms business uwo ca stephen lawrence says goodbye minnesota you never earned the right to have an nhl franchise in the first place hope you enjoy your twin city wide mania for high school hockey hey by the way my old pee wee team is having a reunion in regina care to come up and film the event yee haa golden gophers whatta weird town minnesota definitely deserves an nhl franchise you ll see the minnesota whalers pretty soon so fear not minnesota fans no norm green cept for the team color sorry bad pun what a difference two years makes minnesota finished in and made the finals they finish with a better record at thi year and move to dallas every team in the playoffs has a winning record finally it s about time nhl robbie po pgh penguins it won t be easy but it contact for the stanley cup will have greater rewards penn state lady lions champions mountains and valleys are rap psuvm psu edu straight wins better than nothing at all
rec.sport.hockey	final nhl player stats if you are interested in receiving the final player stats for the nhl season as well as playoff box scores stats and scores updates then e mail my stat server mmilitzo skidmore edu the subject of the message must be stats
rec.sport.hockey	wc scores and standings april world championships in germany group a standings munich group b standings dortmund gp w t l gf ga p gp w t l gf ga p sweden germany italy czech republic russia usa canada finland switzerland france austria norway april italy russia norway germany sweden austria usa czech republic april canada switzerland russia austria finland france april sweden canada czech republic germany switzerland italy finland usa april germany france italy sweden czech republic norway april switzerland russia usa france austria canada norway finland april switzerland austria germany finland april russia sweden czech republic france canada italy usa norway april sweden switzerland finland czech republic russia canada germany usa april austria italy france norway playoffs april quarterfinals a b a b april quarterfinals a b a b april relegation a b a b april semifinals a b a b a b a b may relegation bronze medal game may final staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson se r s h contact for swedish hockey
sci.crypt	ripem frequently asked questions archive name ripem faq last update sun mar about this posting this is a still rather rough listing of likely questions and information about ripem a program for public key mail encryption it this faq not ripem was written and will be maintained by marc vanheyningen mvanheyn whale cs indiana edu it will be posted to a variety of newsgroups on a monthly basis follow up discussion specific to ripem is redirected to the group alt security ripem this month i have reformatted this posting in an attempt to comply with the standards for hypertext faq formatting to allow easy manipulation of this document over the world wide web let me know what you think disclaimer nothing in this faq should be considered legal advice or anything other than one person s opinion if you want real legal advice talk to a real lawyer questions and answers what is ripem ripem is a program which performs privacy enhanced mail pem using the cryptographic techniques of rsa and des it allows your electronic mail to have the properties of authentication i e who sent it can be confirmed and privacy i e nobody can read it except the intended recipient ripem was written primarily by mark riordan mrr scss cl msu edu most of the code is in the public domain except for the rsa routines which are a library called rsaref licensed from rsa data security inc how can i get ripem ripem contains the library of cryptographic routines rsaref which is considered munitions and thus is export restricted from distribution to people who are not citizens or permanent residents of the u s or canada therefore the following request is quoted from the readme file please do not export the cryptographic code in this distribution outside of the usa or canada this is a personal request from me the author of ripem and a condition of your use of ripem note that rsaref is not in the public domain and a license for it is included with the distribution you should read it before using ripem the best way to get it is to ask a friend for a copy since this will reduce the load on those sites that do carry it not to mention the humans that run them naturally this requires that you trust the friend ripem is available via anonymous ftp to citizens and permanent residents in the u s from rsa com cd to rsaref and read the readme file for info last i looked this site contains only the source tree and does not contain compiled binaries or the nice mac version ripem as well as some other crypt stuff has its home site on rpub cl msu edu which is open to non anonymous ftp for users in the u s and canada who are citizens or permanent residents to find out how to obtain access ftp there cd to pub crypt and read the file getting access for convenience binaries for many architectures are available here in addition to the full source tree will ripem run on my machine probably it has already been ported to ms dos and most flavors of unix sunos next linux aix ultrix solaris etc ports to macintosh include a standard unix style port and a rather nice mac like port written by raymond lau author of stuffit more ports are expected and help of users is invited will ripem work with my mailer probably how easy and clean the effective interface is will depend on the sophistication and modularity of the mailer though the users guide included with the distribution discusses ways to use ripem with many popular mailers including berkeley mush elm and mh code is also included in elisp to allow easy use of ripem inside gnu emacs if you make a new interface for ripem or create an improvement on one in the distribution which you believe is convenient to use secure and may be useful to others feel free to post it to alt security ripem what is rsa rsa is a crypto system which is asymmetric or public key this means that there are two different related keys one to encrypt and one to decrypt because one cannot reasonably be derived from the other you may publish your encryption or public key widely and keep your decryption or private key to yourself anyone can use your public key to encrypt a message but only you hold the private key needed to decrypt it note that the message sent with rsa is normally just the des key to the real message see what is des note that the above only provides for privacy for authentication the fingerprint of the message see what is a fingerprint like md is encrypted with the sender s private key the recipient can use the sender s public key to decrypt it and confirm that the message must have come from the sender rsa was named for the three men rivest shamir and adleman who invented it to find out more about rsa ftp to rsa com and look in pub faq or look in sci crypt what is des des is the data encryption standard a widely used symmetric or secret key crypto system unlike rsa des uses the same key to encrypt and decrypt messages however des is much faster than rsa ripem uses both des and rsa it generates a random key and encrypts your mail with des using that key it then encrypts that key with the recipient s public rsa key and includes the result in the letter allowing the recipient to recover the des key des is sometimes considered weak because it is somewhat old and uses a key length considered too short by modern standards however it should be reasonably safe against an opponent smaller than a large corporation or government agency it is not unlikely that future ripems will strengthen the symmetric cipher possibly by using multiple encryption with des what is pem and how does ripem relate pem is privacy enhanced mail a system for allowing easy transfer of encrypted electronic mail it is described in rfcs these documents have been approved and obsolete the old rfcs ripem is not really a complete implementation of pem because pem specifies certificates for authenticating keys which ripem does not handle at this time their addition is planned what s this about distributing and authenticating keys for a remote user to be able to send secure mail to you she must know your public key for you to be able to confirm that the message received came from her you must know her public key it is important that this information be accurate if a bad guy convinces her that his key is in fact yours she will send messages which he can read ripem allows for three methods of key management a central server the distributed finger servers and a flat file all three are described in the ripem users guide which is part of the distribution none of them provide perfect security why do all ripem public keys look very similar ripem public keys begin with a pkcs identifier describing various characteristics about the key so the first bunch of characters in your key may be the same as those of lots of other people s keys this does not mean your keys are similar but only that they are the same class of key were generated with the same program are of the same length etc what is a fingerprint like md md is a message digest algorithm produced by rsa data security inc it provides a bit fingerprint or cryptographically secure hash of the plaintext it is cryptographically secure because it is not possible in a reasonable amount of computation to produce a different plaintext which produces the same fingerprint thus instead of signing the entire message with the sender s private key only the md of the message needs to be signed for authentication md is sometimes used for other purposes for example it is often used to map an input of arbitrary length to bits of data as a passphrase interpreter or cookie generator md is described in its entirety including an implementation in c in rfc what is pgp pgp is another cryptographic mail program called pretty good privacy pgp has been around longer than ripem and works somewhat differently pgp is not compatible with ripem in any way though pgp does also use rsa some major differences between pgp and ripem pgp has more key management features particularly for users without a direct network connection ripem conforms to the pem rfcs and thus has a greater probability of working with other pem software pgp makes no attempt to be compatible with anything other than pgp in fact pgp is not compatible with pgp ripem uses rsaref a library of rsa routines from rsa data security inc rsaref comes with a license which allows noncommercial use pgp uses its own implementation of rsa which is not licensed thus pkp the firm holding the u s patents on the rsa algorithm claims that it is a infringement of that patent to make use or sell pgp in the u s or canada in acknowledgement of this pgp s original author phil zimmermann says in the documentation in fact if you live in the usa and you are not a federal agency you shouldn t actually run pgp on your computer because public key partners wants to forbid you from running my software pgp is contraband both pgp and ripem are export restricted and cannot be sent outside the u s and canada however pgp already exists on many ftp sites in europe and other places whether you use pgp or ripem or whatever the documentation to pgp is recommended reading to anyone interested in such issues note that the above facts both regarding patent and export restrictions are somewhat controversial many people think it shouldn t be that way and some people interpret various documents differently unfortunately discussions of it on the net inevitably seem to produce more heat than light and probably belong in misc legal computing see disclaimer what about rpem rpem stands for rabin privacy enhanced mail it was similar to ripem but used a public key cipher invented by rabin which is not rsa in an attempt to avoid the patent on rsa it was written by mark riordan the same author as ripem its distribution was halted when contrary to the beliefs of many including rabin public key partners pkp claimed that their patent was broad enough to cover any public key cipher whose strength rested in the difficulty of factoring products of large primes not just rsa this claim is not universally accepted by any means but was not challenged for pragmatic reasons rpem is not really used anymore it is not compatible with ripem or pgp what is mime mime stands for multipurpose internet mail extensions and is described in rfc you can find out about it in the newsgroup comp mail mime how pem should interact with mime is not yet entirely clear some people use the stopgap solution of having a mime type application x ripem in order to send ripem messages as mime ones i hope some standards will emerge draft internet documents exist on the matter i have this simple way to defeat the security of ripem you may wish to check the companion post ripem attacks which discusses some of the more obvious attacks on ripem s security and what procedures will minimize the risk ripem s main weak area is probably key distribution
sci.crypt	ripem frequently asked questions archive name ripem faq last update mar about this posting this is a listing of likely questions and information about ripem a program for public key mail encryption it this faq not ripem was written and will be maintained by marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu it will be posted to a variety of newsgroups on a monthly basis follow up discussion specific to ripem is redirected to the group alt security ripem what s new i am now running a world wide web archive of ripem information it does not contain much of anything that isn t available elsewhere but it has convenient pointers to the most current version of this faq and some other stuff the url is http cs indiana edu ripem dir html this month s version has a fair amount of new pointers to information on patents and stuff like that i ve also reordered a few things to have a more sensible ordering i hope i don t have to edit this again soon disclaimer nothing in this faq should be considered legal advice or anything other than one layperson s opinion if you want real legal advice talk to a real lawyer preferably one with experience in patent law export regulations or whatever area of law is in question list of questions what is ripem how can i get ripem will ripem run on my machine will ripem work with my mailer what is rsa what is des what is a fingerprint like md what is pem what s this about distributing and authenticating keys isn t it a bad idea to use patented algorithms in standards like pem what about rsadsi pkp why do all ripem public keys look very similar what is pgp what about rpem what is mime what is tis pem i have this simple way to defeat the security of ripem questions and answers what is ripem ripem is a not yet complete but useful implementation of privacy enhanced mail pem ripem allows your electronic mail to have the four security facilities provided by pem disclosure protection optional originator authenticity message integrity measures and non repudiation of origin always see what is pem ripem was written primarily by mark riordan mrr scss cl msu edu most of the code is in the public domain except for the rsa routines which are a library called rsaref licensed from rsa data security inc the current version of ripem is the current version of the macintosh port of ripem is how can i get ripem ripem uses the library of cryptographic routines rsaref which is considered munitions and thus is export restricted from distribution to persons who are not citizens or permanent residents in the u s or canada without an export license no such license has been obtained nor would one likely be granted unless the rsa key exchange were shortened to bits and the symmetric cipher changed to something weaker than des there are some suggestions that this situation may change now that clinton is in office the author requests in the readme file that this law not be violated please do not export the cryptographic code in this distribution outside of the usa or canada this is a personal request from me the author of ripem and a condition of your use of ripem note that rsaref is not in the public domain and a license for it is included with the distribution you should read it before using ripem ripem is available via anonymous ftp to citizens and permanent residents in the u s from rsa com cd to rsaref and read the readme file for info note that the non rsaref portion of ripem is not a product of rsa data security incorporated they merely are helping distribute it ripem as well as some other crypt stuff has its home site on ripem msu edu which is open to non anonymous ftp for users in the u s and canada who are citizens or permanent residents to find out how to obtain access ftp there cd to pub crypt and read the file getting access for convenience binaries for many architectures are available here in addition to the full source tree will ripem run on my machine probably it has already been ported to ms dos and most flavors of unix sunos next linux aix ultrix solaris etc ports to macintosh include a standard unix style port and a rather nice mac like port written by raymond lau author of stuffit more ports are expected and help of users is invited will ripem work with my mailer probably how easy and clean the effective interface is will depend on the sophistication and modularity of the mailer though the users guide included with the distribution discusses ways to use ripem with many popular mailers including berkeley mush elm and mh code is also included in elisp to allow easy use of ripem inside gnu emacs if you make a new interface for ripem or create an improvement on one in the distribution which you believe is convenient to use secure and may be useful to others feel free to post it to alt security ripem what is rsa rsa is a crypto system which is asymmetric or public key this means that there are two different related keys one to encrypt and one to decrypt because one cannot reasonably be derived from the other you may publish your encryption or public key widely and keep your decryption or private key to yourself anyone can use your public key to encrypt a message but only you hold the private key needed to decrypt it note that the message sent with rsa is normally just the des key to the real plaintext see what is des note that the above only provides for disclosure protection for originator authenticity message integrity and non repudiation of origin services to be implemented the fingerprint of the message see what is a fingerprint like md is encrypted with the sender s private key the recipient or a dispute resolving authority can use the sender s public key to decrypt it and confirm that the message must have come from the sender and was not altered rsa was named for the three men rivest shamir and adleman who invented it to find out lots more about rsa and modern cryptography in general ftp to rsa com and look in pub faq some information also may be in sci crypt what is des des is the data encryption standard a widely used symmetric or secret key crypto system unlike rsa des uses the same key to encrypt and decrypt messages however des is much faster than rsa ripem uses both des and rsa it generates a random key and encrypts your mail with des using that key it then encrypts that key with the recipient s public rsa key and includes the result in the letter allowing the recipient to recover the des key des is sometimes considered weak because it is somewhat old and uses a key length considered too short by modern standards however it should be reasonably safe against an opponent smaller than a large corporation or government agency it is not likely that the pem standard will incorporate support for other symmetric ciphers in the near future because there is a strong feeling that pem should be stable so it can become utilized widely without early problems with interoperability what is a fingerprint like md md is a message digest algorithm produced by rsa data security inc it provides a bit fingerprint or cryptographically secure hash of the plaintext it is cryptographically secure because it is not possible in a reasonable amount of computation to produce a different plaintext which produces the same fingerprint thus instead of signing the entire message with the sender s private key only the md of the message needs to be signed for authentication md s can also be exchanged directly for authentication for example ripem public keys include an md of the public key in the file so parties wishing to confirm their keys are authentic via a separate channel merely need exchange md s of keys and verify their accuracy md is sometimes used for other purposes for example it is often used to map an input of arbitrary length to bits of data as a passphrase interpreter or cookie generator md is described in its entirety including an implementation in c in rfc there have been some recent suggestions that md may not be as strong a hash as was originally believed presumably some other hash function will be used if this is accepted as true what is pem pem is privacy enhanced mail a standard for allowing transfer of encrypted electronic mail generated over a long period of time by a working group of experts it is described in rfcs these documents have been approved and obsolete the old rfcs ripem is not really a complete implementation of pem because pem specifies certificates for authenticating keys which ripem does not handle at this time their addition is planned what s this about distributing and authenticating keys for a remote user to be able to send secure mail to you she must know your public key for you to be able to confirm that the message received came from her you must know her public key it is important that this information be accurate if a bad guy convinces her that his key is in fact yours she will send messages which he can read ripem allows for three methods of key management a central server the distributed finger servers and a flat file all three are described in the ripem users guide which is part of the distribution none of them provide perfect security the pem standard calls for key management by certificates the addition of this feature to ripem is planned but chicken egg issues still exist isn t it a bad idea to use patented algorithms in standards like pem this issue has been considered in the standards process rfc the specification for internet standards has a discussion section on what specifications for nondiscriminatory availability must be met for a patented method to be included in a standard rfc addresses this issue with regard to the patents covering public key cryptography this does not of course mean that all questions are settled or that everyone is in agreement an interesting exchange on the use of patented algorithms in standards with regard to public key cryptography is in the league for programming freedom archive available via ftp ftp uu net doc lpf in the files bidzos letter and bidzos response amusingly the lpf files on ftp uu net are compressed with a patented algorithm what about rsadsi pkp rsa data security inc rsadsi is a california based company specializing in cryptographic technologies public key partners is a firm which holds exclusive sub licensing rights of the following u s patents and all of their corresponding foreign patents cryptographic apparatus and method diffie hellman no public key cryptographic apparatus and method hellman merkle no cryptographic communications system and method rsa no exponential cryptographic apparatus and method hellman pohlig no pkp claims these four patents cover all known methods of public key cryptography the two businesses are rather closely related for example the same person jim bidzos is president of both of them pkp has licensed this technology to a considerable number of companies ibm dec motorola at t lotus for use in their products pkp has also threatened and filed lawsuits defending their patents ripem was originally created with no connection to rsadsi other than its use of the rsaref library and for no reason other than its author s desire to see widespread use of public key cryptography however after the ball started rolling people at rsadsi got interested rsadsi decided to carry ripem on its ftp site and some people there started making their own ripem keys and contributing code ripem even won the best application built on rsaref in award why do all ripem public keys look very similar ripem public keys begin with a pkcs public key cryptography standards identifier describing various characteristics about the key so the first bunch of characters in your key may be the same as those of lots of other people s keys this does not mean your keys are similar but only that they are the same class of key were generated with the same program are of the same length etc what is pgp pgp is another cryptographic mail program called pretty good privacy pgp has been around longer than ripem and works somewhat differently pgp is not compatible with ripem in any way though pgp does also use rsa a few major differences between pgp and ripem pgp has more key management features particularly for users without a direct network connection ripem conforms to the pem rfcs and thus has a greater probability of working with other pem software pgp makes no attempt to be compatible with anything other than itself ripem uses rsaref a library of rsa routines from rsadsi which comes with a license allowing noncommercial use pgp uses its own implementation of rsa pkp claims that it is a violation of its patents to make use or sell pgp in the u s or canada without either a license or written permission see disclaimer see what about rsadsi pkp phil zimmermann the author of pgp stopped distributing it after being threatened with legal action he believed that a licensing scheme could be arranged but it hasn t happened and there seems little prospect of it happening in the future he acknowledges in the pgp user s guide in fact if you live in the usa and you are not a federal agency you shouldn t actually run pgp on your computer because public key partners wants to forbid you from running my software pgp is contraband both pgp and ripem are export restricted and cannot be sent outside the u s and canada without an export license however pgp already exists on many ftp sites in europe and other places whether you use pgp or ripem or whatever the documentation to pgp is recommended reading to anyone interested in such issues unfortunately it s not distributed separately from the program which can be difficult to find in the u s on ftp sites due to liability concerns what about rpem rpem stands for rabin privacy enhanced mail it was similar to ripem but used a public key cipher invented by rabin which is not rsa in an attempt to avoid the patents on public key systems it was written by mark riordan who later wrote ripem its distribution was halted when contrary to the beliefs of many including rabin pkp claimed that their patents were broad enough to cover the cipher employed this claim is not universally accepted but was not challenged for pragmatic reasons rpem is not really used anymore it is not compatible with ripem or pgp what is mime mime stands for multipurpose internet mail extensions and is described in rfc you can find out about it in the newsgroup comp mail mime a faq exists on it how pem should interact with mime is not yet entirely clear some people use the stopgap solution of having a mime type application x ripem in order to send ripem messages as mime ones i hope some standards will emerge draft internet documents exist on the matter what is tis pem trusted information systems is working on a version of privacy enhanced mail for general availability last i heard it was rumored to be integrated into an existing mail user agent mh rather than a stand alone system and in beta test i don t know much more than that i have this simple way to defeat the security of ripem you may wish to check the companion post ripem attacks which discusses some of the more obvious attacks on ripem s security and what procedures will minimize the risk ripem s main weak area is probably key distribution
sci.crypt	ripem frequently noted vulnerabilities archive name ripem attacks last update mar some possible attacks on ripem this is a living list of potential weaknesses to keep your eyes open for when using ripem for secure electronic mail it does not go into great detail and is almost certainly not exhaustive obviously many of the weaknesses are weaknesses of cryptographically secured mail in general and will pertain to secure mail programs other than ripem it is maintained by marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu it is posted monthly to a variety of news groups followups pertaining specifically to ripem should go to alt security ripem cryptanalysis attacks breaking rsa would allow an attacker to find out your private key in which case he could read any mail encrypted to you and sign messages with your private key rsa is generally believed to be resistant to all standard cryptanalytic techniques even a standard key about bits with ripem is long enough to render this impractical barring a huge investment in hardware or a breakthrough in factoring breaking des would allow an attacker to read any given message since the message itself is encrypted with des it would not allow an attacker to claim to be you des has only bits in its key and thus could conceivably be compromised by brute force with sufficient hardware but few agencies have such money to devote to simply read one message since each message has a different des key the work for each message would remain high key management attacks stealing your private key would allow the same benefits as breaking rsa to safeguard it it is encrypted with a des key which is derived from a passphrase you type in however if an attacker can get a copy of your private keyfile and your passphrase by snooping network packets tapping lines or whatever he could break the whole scheme the main risk is that of transferring either the passphrase or the private key file across an untrusted link so don t do that run ripem on a trusted machine preferably one sitting right in front of you ideally your own machine in your own home or maybe office which nobody else has physical access to fooling you into accepting a bogus public key for someone else could allow an opponent to deceive you into sending secret messages to him rather than to the real recipient if the enemy can fool your intended recipient as well he could re encrypt the messages with the other bogus public key and pass them along it is important to get the proper public keys of other people the most common mechanism for this is finger assuming the opponent has not compromised routers or daemons or such finger can be given a fair amount of trust the strongest method of key authentication is to exchange keys in person however this is not always practical having other people vouch for you by signing a statement containing your key is possible although ripem doesn t have features for doing this as automatically as pgp ripem does generate and check md fingerprints of public keys in the key files they may be exchanged via a separate channel for authentication playback attacks even if an opponent cannot break the cryptography an opponent could still cause difficulties for example suppose you send a message with mic only a pem mode which does not provide disclosure protection to alice which says ok let s do that your opponent intercepts it and now resends it to bob who now has a message which is authenticated as from you telling him to do that of course he may interpret it in an entirely different context or your opponent could transmit the same message to the same recipient much later figuring it would be seen differently at a later time or the opponent could change the originator name to himself register your public key as his and send a message hoping the recipient will send him return mail indicating perhaps even quoting the unknown message to defeat playback attacks the plaintext of each message should include some indication of the sender and recipient and a unique identifier typically the date a good front end script for ripem should do this automatically imho as a recipient you should be sure that the originator name header and the sender indicated within the plaintext are the same that you really are a recipient and that the message is not an old one some this also can and should be automated the author of this faq has made a modest attempt at automating the process of generating and checking encapsulated headers the programs are included in the standard distribution in the utils directory local attacks clearly the security of ripem cannot be greater than the security of the machine where the encryption is performed for example under unix a super user could manage to get at your encrypted mail although it would take some planning and effort to do something like replace the ripem executable with a trojan horse or to get a copy of the plaintext depending how it s stored in addition the link between you and the machine running ripem is an extension of that if you decrypt with ripem on a remote machine which you are connected to via network or worse yet modem an eavesdropper could see the plaintext and probably also your passphrase ripem should only be executed on systems you trust obviously in the extreme case ripem should only be used on your own machine which you have total control over and which nobody else has access to which has only carefully examined software known to be free of viruses and so on however there s a very real trade off between convenience and security here a more moderately cautious user might use ripem on a unix workstation where other people have access even root access but increase security by keeping private keys and the statically linked of course executable on a floppy disk some people will keep ripem on a multi user system but when dialing in over an insecure line they will download the message to their own system and perform the ripem decryption there however the security provided by such a mechanism is somewhat illusory since you presumably type your cleartext password to log in you ve just given away the store since the attacker can now log in as you and install traps in your account to steal your private key next time you use it from a less insecure line this will likely remain the situation as long as most systems use the rather quaint mechanism of cleartext password authentication i find it nice to put a brief statement of how carefully i manage my security arrangement in my plan next to my public key so that potential correspondents can be aware what level of precautions are in place some people use two keys a short one which is not carefully managed for ordinary use and a longer one which is treated with greater care for critical correspondence untrusted partner attacks ripem s encryption will ensure that only a person with the private key corresponding to the public key used to encrypt the data may read the traffic however once someone with that key gets the message she may always make whatever kind of transformations she wishes there exist no cryptographic barriers to a recipient say taking an encrypted message and converting it to a mic only message signed by you and readable by anyone although ripem does not provide this functionality indeed the latest pem draft i have seen specifically states that such transformations should be possible to allow forwarding functions to work including the recipients in the plaintext as mentioned above will make it possible for recipients of a redistributed message to be aware of its original nature naturally the security of the cryptography can never be greater than the security of the people using it
sci.crypt	certifying authority question answered if you have access to ftp try ftping to rsa com login as anonymous there are several documents there including a frequently asked questions about today s cryptography document it has faq in its name i believe this document explains the idea behind the certifying authorities good luck john kelsey c mizzou missouri edu thanks i ve ftp ed the faq file and it is just what i was looking for jim miller suite com
sci.crypt	rubber hose cryptanalysis some sick part of me really liked that phrase actually merely the threat of a long prison sentence even without a beating can get most people to give in especially if it s also punctuated with a trip to the county jail where one just happens to get locked up with all the drunk stoned crazy folks that are too violent to be left in cells with other people
sci.crypt	declassifying media there are many urban legends maybe this ought to be in the crypt faq about what is actually sufficient to clear or declassify magnetic media when used for classified data here is some information from the horse s mouth regarding the sufficient overwriting of media clearing meant to be retained within the controlled environment or declassifying the material to be reused outside the controlled environment from national telecommunications and information systems security ntiss advisory memorandum on office automation security guidelines ntissam compusec clearing of magnetic media certain types of removable media e g magnetic tape floppy disk cassettes and magnetic cards may be cleared by overwriting the entire media one time with any one character floppy disks may be cleared by applying a vendor s formatting program that overwrites each location with a given character fixed media e g winchester disks should be cleared by overwriting at least one time with any one character one way to do this is by applying a vendor supplied formatting program that overwrites each location on the disk with a given character if it can be shown that this program actually works as advertised the user should beware some programs that purport to overwrite all locations do not actually do this cleared media may be resides within the controlled facility or released for destruction however they should be marked and controlled at the level of the most restrictive sensitivity of information ever recorded declassification of magnetic media certain types of removable media can be declassified using a degaussing device that has been approved for declassifying media of that type a list of approved devices is maintained by the nsa if a fixed medium for example a hard or winchester disk is operative an approved method of declassifying the disk pack is to employ an overwrite procedure which must overwrite all addressable locations at least three times by writing any character then its complement e g binary ones and binary zeros alternatively when fixed media become inoperative it is impossible to declassify the media by the overwrite method in this case there are two alternate procedures that may be used disassemble the disk pack and degauss each platter with the appropriate approved degaussing equipment and courier the inoperative media to the vendor s facility have the magnetic media e g disk platter removed in sight of the courier and returned to the courier for destruction at the secure site the vendor can then install new platters and repair any other problems with the disk unit destruction of magnetic media see dod computer security center department of defense magnetic remanence security guideline csc std for official use only this and many other interesting documents many that are more informative than probably intended on computer security procedures can be obtained free from executive secretary national telecommunications and informations systems security committee national security agency fort george g meade md write them it s fun to be on the nsa s mailing list grady netcom com ef e ad d d c f fc ac f d f e f
sci.crypt	re hard drive security for fbi targets from res colnet cmhnet org rob stampfli separate locations to gain credibility if they are seized and you are compelled to decrypt it you simply explain that you are an amateur cryptologist playing around with one time pads and that the first file is the pad for the second they xor the two files and sure enough out pops a copy of war and peace so judging from recent history at this point they drop the original charges preemptively find you guilty of copyright violations and seize your computer your home and your financial reserves under federal forfeiture laws ah no what really happens is that they turn up at the court with another file which when exored with your document gives up the famous e document and i tell you some judges would fall for it g
sci.crypt	re disk safety measure begin pgp signed message in article pq re gc network ucsd edu loki sdphu ucsd edu lance m cottrell writes btw i have not been able to get pgp to produce a signature that i can attatch to the end of this message what is the procedure thanks try pgp sat clearsig on this will do the clearsig signing enjoy derek pgp key available upon request on the key server pgp public keys toxicwaste mit edu derek atkins mit electrical engineering and computer science secretary mit student information processing board sipb mit media laboratory speech research group warlord mit edu pp asel n nwh
sci.crypt	re pgp general comments neuhaus vier informatik uni kl de stephan neuhaus hiwi mattern writes lots of stuff i hate to follow up to my own posting but i should perhaps clarify some things so i won t get flamed first of all when i m talking about factoring the modulus or a breakthrough in factoring what i really mean is a breakthrough in the cryptanalysis of rsa i know that factoring and breaking rsa are not proven to be equivalent it s just so damn convenient not to repeat this every time i also have to admit that i don t really know if the non group property of a cipher is essential only for key chaining i have thought about it a little while but i can t find a way that a cryptanalyst could exploit a group structure that of course means nothing at all then i wrote please note that as long as it is much harder to factor a rsa modulus than it is to generate it the increase in computer speed alone will keep key lengths and modulus factoring in lock step i e people will simply start using longer moduli and still be safe what i meant was that as long as the only advantage of the cryptanalyst is a faster computer then we will probably have rsa for a long time to come because even if bit moduli somehow could be broken with fast computers not with a new algorithm then people would simply use longer moduli both users and cryptanalysts benefit from better technology in the same way hope this keeps the flames away have fun stephan neuhaus informatik uni kl de sig closed for inventory please leave your pickaxe outside pgp public key available on request note the expiration date
sci.crypt	licensing this thread brings up the more general question can any crypto implementation for which highly publicly scrutinized source code is not available ever be trusted after ibm had invented the des and the nbs had advertised for proposals but before ibm had decided to respond i argued strenuously that they should not they should keep it proprietary the biggest proponent of proposing was dr lewis branscomb dr branscomb was the ibm chief scientist and had come to ibm from nbs fortunately for all of us dr branscomb understood the answer to the above question much better than i he realized how difficult it would be to gain acceptance for any cryptographic mechanism because of the necessary complexity publicity would not be sufficient and neither would authority in fact it has taken both of those plus more than years we have also had independence the des was solicited by nbs invented and proposed by ibm and vetted by nbs it has also been examined and vetted by experts like adi shamir who are not subject to influence by any of these even now there are still people posting on this list who do not trust the des in spite of all the time all of the analysis and all of the public scrutiny of course it is just this point that nist misses when it attempts to gain acceptance for a novel mechanism developed in secret on the basis of authority alone we had a long thread here about whether or not the nsa can break the des that is a silly question at some cost and in some time they can break anything the important question is at what cost and in what time the fundamental strength of the des and rsa are not nearly so important as what we know about their strength as long as we understand the cost and duration for an attacker then we can use them in a safe way at this point we may never replace either because of the inability of any successor to overcome this knowledge gap des and rsa are among the most significant inventions of the century and the most important inventions in the history of cryptography we are damned lucky to have them william hugh murray executive consultant information system security locust avenue suite new canaan connecticut att wmurray whmurray at dockmaster ncsc mil
sci.crypt	re licensing of public key implementations with regard to your speculations on nsa involvement in the creation of pkp i find that it fails the test of occam s butcher knife never attribute to conspiracy what can be explained by forthright greed hilarie orman
sci.crypt	re identifying securing files in article bb f c mash boulder co us rmashlan mash csn org robert mashlan writes tarnold vnet ibm com todd w arnold said in article almaden ibm com it s ok as long as you trust the end user to stay out of your application program or as long as it runs in a system where the user can t get to it otherwise you can t stop him from finding the load a module code in your program and simply bypassing the check for a valid module the devious user can either modify the object code before running the program or he can run the program under a debugger and change the instructions in memory there is a way to foil debuggers by clearing the single step interrupt on which a debugger depends every few instructions in the sensitive areas of the code this assumes the person is using the hardware debug instruction of an x type processor it can be negated by nop ing the clear debug instruction or by running the code on a machine simulator like one i wrote as a senior project in college it can bypass and trace practically anything one could write in software kind of like being on a star trek holideck kenneth ng please reply to ken eies njit edu for now all this might be an elaborate simulation running in a little device sitting on someone s table j l picard st tng
sci.crypt	lga ncrypt source i got a number of requests for code so here it is its written in x asm borland tasm will do tasm lga asm tlink t lga asm the code lga ncryption c by nick nassuphis code segment assume cs code ds code org h start jmp begin gas particle assigment bit particle moving east bit particle moving west bit particle moving north bit particle moving south bit particle moving east bit particle moving west bit particle moving north bit particle moving south collisiong rules gas rules if e w and n s then e w n s if n s and e w then n s e w for nibbles and for bytes reflection rules just swap bits along directions this look up table implements two particle collisions for the hpp lattice gas hpprule db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b this rule implements the velocity reversal needed to run the gas evolution in reverse its called a wallrule because its the same as is all particles hit a wall head on wallrule db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b db b maxbyte equ lineno equ srcptr dw offset buffer desptr dw offset buffer savebuff db maxbyte lineno dup buffer db maxbyte lineno dup db dup buffer db maxbyte lineno dup db dup data db db db db this is a test for a lattice gas based encryption db algorithm the data is encoded as particles of a db digital gas whose time evolution is then simulated db with a cellular automaton type algorithm decryption db can be achieved by running the simulation in reverse db a thermodynamic argument ensures that even if a single db bit is flipped no decryption of the data is possible db db after the gas is let to evolve for timesteps db one can either run the reverse evolution by pressing db space or flip a bit and then run by pressing db db for a cryptographic application the key would consist db of the number of time steps and the time and location db of specific bit inversions db db db db db fill the gas with a piece of code initgas mov di cs srcptr mov si offset data mov cx lineno ig push di push cx mov cx maxbyte ig mov al cs si mov cs di al inc si inc di loop ig pop cx pop di add di maxbyte loop ig mov si cs srcptr mov di offset initgas mov cx maxbyte mov al lg mov byte ptr cs si al not al inc si loop lg ret display gas molecules bouncing around showgas push es push si push di push cx push bx mov ax b h mov es ax mov si cs srcptr mov di mov cx lineno add si maxbyte sg push cx push di mov cx maxbyte sg mov al cs si mov byte ptr es di al inc si add di dec cx jnz sg pop di pop cx add di loop sg pop bx pop cx pop di pop si pop es ret cs si sourse of data cs di destination of data scanonemiddleline first byte is a special case because of warparound mov bl al is the assembled byte mov bh cs si maxbyte north is one line up lower and bh b and at bits and or bl bh or them into the assembled byte mov bh cs si maxbyte south is one line down higher and bh b and at bits and or bl bh place the stuff into al mov bh cs si maxbyte west is one byte left lower and bh b and at bits and or bl bh mov bh cs si east is one byte right higher and bh b and at bits and or bl bh mov bh mov al byte ptr cs bx offset hpprule mov cs di al inc si inc di middle bytes can be handled in a loop mov cx maxbyte sol mov bl al is the assembled byte mov bh cs si maxbyte north is one line up lower and bh b and at bits and or bl bh or them into the assembled byte mov bh cs si maxbyte south is one line down higher and bh b and at bits and or bl bh place the stuff into al mov bh cs si west is one byte left lower and bh b and at bits and or bl bh mov bh cs si east is one byte right higher and bh b and at bits and or bl bh mov bh mov al byte ptr cs bx offset hpprule mov cs di al inc si inc di loop sol last byte is also special mov bl al is the assembled byte mov bh cs si maxbyte north is one line up lower and bh b and at bits and or bl bh or them into the assembled byte mov bh cs si maxbyte south is one line down higher and bh b and at bits and or bl bh place the stuff into al mov bh cs si west is one byte left lower and bh b and at bits and or bl bh mov bh cs si maxbyte east is one byte right higher and bh b and at bits and or bl bh mov bh mov al byte ptr cs bx offset hpprule mov cs di al inc si inc di ret cs si sourse of data cs di destination of data scanfirstline first byte is a special case because of warparound mov bl mov bh cs si maxbyte lineno and bh b and at bits and or bl bh or them into the assembled byte mov bh cs si maxbyte and bh b and at bits and or bl bh place the stuff into al mov bh cs si maxbyte west is one byte left lower and bh b and at bits and or bl bh mov bh cs si east is one byte right higher and bh b and at bits and or bl bh mov bh mov al byte ptr cs bx offset hpprule mov cs di al inc si inc di middle bytes can be handled in a loop mov cx maxbyte sfl mov bl al is the assembled byte mov bh cs si maxbyte lineno and bh b and at bits and or bl bh or them into the assembled byte mov bh cs si maxbyte and bh b and at bits and or bl bh place the stuff into al mov bh cs si west is one byte left lower and bh b and at bits and or bl bh mov bh cs si east is one byte right higher and bh b and at bits and or bl bh mov bh mov al byte ptr cs bx offset hpprule mov cs di al inc si inc di loop sfl last byte is also special mov bl al is the assembled byte mov bh cs si maxbyte lineno and bh b and at bits and or bl bh or them into the assembled byte mov bh cs si maxbyte and bh b and at bits and or bl bh place the stuff into al mov bh cs si west is one byte left lower and bh b and at bits and or bl bh mov bh cs si maxbyte east is one byte right higher and bh b and at bits and or bl bh mov bh mov al byte ptr cs bx offset hpprule mov cs di al ret cs si sourse of data cs di destination of data scanlastline first byte is a special case because of warparound mov bl al is the assembled byte mov bh cs si maxbyte and bh b and at bits and or bl bh or them into the assembled byte mov bh cs si maxbyte lineno and bh b and at bits and or bl bh place the stuff into al mov bh cs si maxbyte west is one byte left lower and bh b and at bits and or bl bh mov bh cs si east is one byte right higher and bh b and at bits and or bl bh mov bh mov al byte ptr cs bx offset hpprule mov cs di al inc si inc di middle bytes can be handled in a loop mov cx maxbyte sll mov bl al is the assembled byte mov bh cs si maxbyte and bh b and at bits and or bl bh or them into the assembled byte mov bh cs si maxbyte lineno and bh b and at bits and or bl bh place the stuff into al mov bh cs si west is one byte left lower and bh b and at bits and or bl bh mov bh cs si east is one byte right higher and bh b and at bits and or bl bh mov bh mov al byte ptr cs bx offset hpprule mov cs di al inc si inc di loop sll last byte is also special mov bl al is the assembled byte mov bh cs si maxbyte and bh b and at bits and or bl bh or them into the assembled byte mov bh cs si maxbyte lineno and bh b and at bits and or bl bh place the stuff into al mov bh cs si west is one byte left lower and bh b and at bits and or bl bh mov bh cs si maxbyte east is one byte right higher and bh b and at bits and or bl bh mov bh mov al byte ptr cs bx offset hpprule mov cs di al inc si inc di ret invert all velocities in the gas invertall push bx push cx push si mov si cs srcptr mov bx mov cx lineno ia push cx mov cx maxbyte ia mov bl cs si mov al byte ptr cs bx offset wallrule mov cs si al inc si loop ia pop cx loop ia pop si pop cx pop bx ret iterateonce mov si cs srcptr mov di cs desptr mov cs srcptr di mov cs desptr si push si push di call scanfirstline pop di pop si add si maxbyte add di maxbyte mov cx lineno dont scan first and last l push si push di push cx call scanonemiddleline pop cx pop di pop si add si maxbyte add di maxbyte loop l push si push di call scanlastline pop si pop di l ret iterate hpp rule cx times iterate push cx call iterateonce pop cx call showgas loop iterate ret iterate hpp rule cx times iterateuntil mov si mov cx offset iu offset iu iu mov al byte ptr cs si offset iu xor byte ptr cs si offset iu al inc si loop iu iu call iterateonce call showgas mov si cs srcptr mov cx maxbyte mov bx mov ah mov al iu mov bl byte ptr cs si mov dl byte ptr cs bx wallrule not ah xor dl ah and al dl inc si loop iu mov si mov cx offset iu offset iu iu mov ah byte ptr cs si offset iu and ah al xor byte ptr cs si offset iu ah inc si loop iu jmp iu iu mov ax offset iu push ax ret db dup h iu push ax push bx push cx push dx push ds mov ah mov dx cs msgptr int h pop ds pop dx pop cx pop bx pop ax ret db dup h msgptr dw offset msg msg db this message is printed out by db code decrypted using data from the lattice db which was applied to the decoding routine db after every time step db the decoding function left the code unchanged db except after the gas evolution had completelly db reversed the thermalization times equ repetitions are enough to equilibrate the gas begin mov ax h mov bh mov dh mov dl mov cx int h mov ah mov bh mov dh mov dl int h call initgas call showgas mov ah int h push cx mov cx times call iterate call invertall call showgas mov ah int h cmp al jne begin mov si cs srcptr xor byte ptr cs si b begin mov cx times call iterateuntil call invertall call showgas mov ax c h int h code ends end start
sci.crypt	re illegal wiretaps was denning s trust in article ppg i k bigboote wpi edu ear bigwpi wpi edu mr neat o tm writes it is apparently quite easy to get hold of a person s calling records through the phone company police and some lawyers are able to acquire such information without any warrant or judicial supervision whether or not the target is suspected of specific crimes pardon me but isn t this very illegal i was under the impression that a warrent is needed to get this information out of the phone company in order to protect people s privacy legal or not i ve seen it done phone records were obtained in order to establish probable cause rather than as a result of it in other words for a fishing expedition a local worcester ma police officer i spoke with only a couple of nights ago told me that they usually only subpeona the phone companies records in extreme conditions because it s so much of a hassle and does the phone company require written subpoena able evidence of probable cause in order to process the request i suggest that the officer was disinterested in pursuing your case even if you could prove the offender had called you at a certain time your chances of winning a harassment suit on the strength of this evidence are nil my contact with several people who have dealt with cases of extreme phone harassment several thousand calls in one case teaches me that police in this area are quite lethargic about pursuing such matters tal
sci.crypt	re licensing of public key implementations strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes i will provide one hint it is reported that rsa expressed puzzlement at their conference that nobody has asked for permission to use ripem to write a pgp compatible program this actually supports bill s speculation if there is a backdoor in rsaref and if pkp is supported secretly by the nsa then it is more than natural that they will welcome any public key implementation that uses rsaref and will strongly oppose themselves against any implementation that doesn t i personally cannot see how one could put a backdoor in a long precision modular arithmetic library that comes in source but of course the fact that i cannot see it means nothing regards vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center university of hamburg tel fax fachbereich informatik agn pgp public key available on request vogt koelln strasse rm c e mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de d hamburg germany
sci.crypt	re opinions of rc alg markowitz dockmaster ncsc mil writes it is interesting to note in this regard that permission to export pkzip s encryption scheme has twice been denied by nsa draw you own conclusions uh i m afraid that your information is slightly out of date pkware has obtained a license to export their program to the whole world except a very limited list of countries draw your own conclusions about the strength of the algorithm regards vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center university of hamburg tel fax fachbereich informatik agn pgp public key available on request vogt koelln strasse rm c e mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de d hamburg germany
sci.crypt	re disk safety measure cuffell spot colorado edu tim cuffel writes there is no guarantee that the deleted space would be overwritten during optimization likely but no guarantee a quicker and more secure method would be a batch file that overwrote all of your free space for example fill bat echo out fill bat this is off the top of my head include std disclaimer h it is much easier faster and probably even more secure to use norton utilties i m talking ibm pc here and to tell wipeinfo to a clean the free disk space and b clean the slack space at the end of the files use to government standard option for more careful overwriting regards vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center university of hamburg tel fax fachbereich informatik agn pgp public key available on request vogt koelln strasse rm c e mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de d hamburg germany
sci.crypt	licensing this actually supports bill s speculation if there is a backdoor in rsaref and if pkp is supported secretly by the nsa then it is more than natural that they will welcome any public key implementation that uses rsaref and will strongly oppose themselves against any implementation that doesn t my speculation does not include or depend upon a trapdoor in rsaref i do not believe that rsa would consent to such however there are other limitation in the concept of rsaref in which nsa has an interest it has an interest in a limited number of implementations i e targets it has an interest in fixed key or maximum modulus size it has a legitimate literally right to pursue such interests within bounds it probably has a right to pursue those interests by covert means at least it has the same right as the rest of us not to disclose all of its motives and intentions institutions are not self aware they do not know their intentions in any meaningful sense william hugh murray executive consultant information system security locust avenue suite new canaan connecticut att wmurray whmurray at dockmaster ncsc mil
sci.crypt	re looking for one way trap door password encryption etc algorithms michael levin wrote i am looking for references to algorithms which can be used for password encryption i e someone has a clear text word runs it through the algorithm and it becomes some other sequence of symbols i want this algorithm to have the property that it is a next to impossible to reverse and b would take too long to try all possible words to see which one works even by use of a high speed computer please send references or ideas to mlevin husc harvard edu the original one way encryption i put into multics about as suggested by joe weizenbaum was invertible an air force tiger team demonstrated this to me in may i then asked an expert who requested anonymity what i should use instead the expert s suggestion was to treat the byte password as both key and data for the lucifer encryption algorithm which is similar or identical to des this method or something stronger should take care of a issue b is discussed in comp security misc longer passwords and quality control on what users can choose as passwords are the common tactics tom vanvleck taligent com
sci.crypt	re hard drive security for fbi targets cme ellisun sw stratus com carl ellison writes for example if i had a program on my disk which created totally random files looking like encrypted messages and could demonstrate that the file in question could have been created by that program then my claim that it was in fact created by that program must stand as true since i m innocent unless someone can prove me wrong hmmm that brings up a neat idea unfortunately it s sooo neat i think i ought to patent it so i can t tell you about it sorry bill copyright william s yerazunis aka crah the merciless all rights reserved no responsibility taken i love the smell of flash powder in the morning it smells like like theatre
sci.crypt	re hard drive security for fbi targets in article apr ucsu colorado edu cuffell spot colorado edu tim cuffel writes how about this i create a bunch of sets of random data and encrypt it i keep only one of the sets of random data around to show that i encypt random data for kicks the rest i delete with their keys i tell all my friends i think this establishes reasonable doubt about the contents of any encrypted files and my ability to provides keys since anyone could do this any law that forces a user to provide keys on demand is worthless the law is much worse than worthless it gives police the power to put innocent people in jail because they the police find something they don t understand most police don t know what the return key does never mind the difference between a core file and classified military secrets there are plenty of scenarios where the user would have no idea what something is either it could be uninitialized junk the burden of proof is on the user to show that it s something a normal upstanding citizen should have no one should ever be put in that situation especially in america what s disgusting about this is how easily most people go along with it to provide a bargaining chip against some hypothetical alleged child molester or drug dealer or whatever bad thing is in style at the time basically most people don t have a clear distinction between criminals and suspects as an analogy it s like they find a loose screw in your house and they insist that you re building a bomb or machine gun they ask you where it came from like you d know and ask you to prove your claim when you explain it in such simple terms people may start to get the idea as a matter of fact i do keep random files on my disk the reason is without special purpose hardware it takes a long time to generate good random bits i have programs that crank out a couple bits per minute which is pretty conservative but over time that s more than i need if you think about it there s no point in actually encrypting random data because it just gives you different random data if you want some data to look like an encrypted file you just put an appropriate header on it if enough people do this some of them will be put in jail when you get arrested and the police ask for your keys you can tell them it s just random junk although of course they won t believe you while you re sitting in jail you can take consolation in the fact that the government will burn a few cpu years trying to find something that s not there joe keane amateur cryptologist jgk osc com uunet amdcad osc jgk
sci.crypt	re hard drive security for fbi targets in article osc com joe keane jgk osc com writes as a matter of fact i do keep random files on my disk the reason is without special purpose hardware it takes a long time to generate good random bits i have programs that crank out a couple bits per minute which is pretty conservative but over time that s more than i need sounds like a useful program interested in posting it to alt sources g
sci.crypt	re hard drive security in article m c fkj rpi edu antonh rpi edu writes say can anyone send my info on how to encrpyt a hard disk ps i would also like know the consequences of those types of actions if i so chose to do them in the future in this country and european countries people have been encrypting notes in their notebooks for hundreds of years maybe over a thousand it s a long tradition dating at least back to the alchemists i know of nothing bad happening to them i would assume that nothing bad would happen to you given this long history establishing encryption as the property of individuals to do with as they please disclaimer all opinions expressed are my own of course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough ma fax
sci.crypt	re licensing of public key implementations in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu jebright magnus acs ohio state edu james r ebright writes i guess we will have to wait for the time in the far future when everyone uses such good crypto that the nsa has no job then the agency will be disbanded and its files opened after the approprate historical delay you ve overlooked a fundamental truth both headcount and budget of any government agency are monotonic increasing functions given that truth you need to look for what the agency can do to occupy all those people and spend all that money when crypto is unbreakable perhaps they could talk the world s telephone companies into making equipment they could break into and tap maybe they could convince people that distributed computing was a good idea so that even the internal state of a process would be available for access by wiretapping maybe disclaimer all opinions expressed are my own of course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough ma fax
sci.crypt	re hard drive security for fbi targets rja cl cam ac uk ross anderson writes in article apr ucsu colorado edu cuffell spot colorado edu tim cuffel writes this suggests a new pc security product design approach first fill the hard drive with random files and files encrypted under a number of known keys then whenever a new secret file is created you delete a random file and replace it with real encrypted data new non secret files are encrypted under a known key better yet instead of thrashing around on the dos file system take it a step further write yourself a minimal file system program that is used to create delete files en decrypt them to ramdisk list a directory put the util password protected on a floppy the catch is that the storage space used by this util is not part of the dos file system instead defrag your disk thus packing all allocated clusters into clusters n then use the back end of the partition to hold your stealth file system or leave a small nd partition on the disk that is not assigned to dos another approach might be to use a directory that contains a set of invariant files dos system files for instance due to dos allocating a minimum storage unit of a cluster there is unused physical space on the disk between the tail end of each file and the end of its associated cluster these dead spaces could be concatenated and used to hold your stealth file system now you have a situation where no encrypted data appears on your disk at all ray berry kb ht ray ole cdac com rjberry eskimo com compuserve com
sci.crypt	re source of random bits on a unix workstation in article pivot sbi com bet sbi com bennett todd salomon brothers inc ny writes this came up because i decided to configure up mit magic cookie security for x r for this to work you need to stick some bits that an intruder can t guess in a file readable only by you which x client applications read they pass the bits back to the server when they want to establish a connection what i settled on was grabbing a bunch of traffic off the network basically i ran etherfind u x greater compress and skipped over k of output then grabbed my bits as best i can tell these are bits that can be expected to be reasonably uniformly distributed and quite unguessable by an intruder for your application what you can do is to encrypt the real time clock value with a secret key
sci.crypt	re source of random bits on a unix workstation in article c ja s a cs psu edu so eiffel cs psu edu nicol c so writes in article pivot sbi com bet sbi com bennett todd salomon brothers inc ny writes this came up because i decided to configure up mit magic cookie security for x r for this to work you need to stick some bits that an intruder can t guess in a file readable only by you which x client applications read they pass the bits back to the server when they want to establish a connection what i settled on was grabbing a bunch of traffic off the network basically i ran etherfind u x greater compress and skipped over k of output then grabbed my bits as best i can tell these are bits that can be expected to be reasonably uniformly distributed and quite unguessable by an intruder for your application what you can do is to encrypt the real time clock value with a secret key for a good discussion of cryptographically good random number generators check out the draft ietf security randomness txt internet draft available at your local friendly internet drafts repository a reasonably source of randomness is the output of a cryptographic hash function e g md when fed with a large amount of more or less random data for example running md on dev mem is a slow but random enough source of random bits there are bound to be bits of entropy in the tens or hundreds of megabytes of data in a modern workstation s memory as a fair amount of them are system timers i o buffers etc ji
sci.crypt	re fifth amendment and passwords in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu ashall magnus acs ohio state edu andrew s hall writes i am postive someone will correct me if i am wrong but doesn t the fifth also cover not being forced to do actions that are self incriminating e g the police couldn t demand that you silently take them to where the body is buried or where the money is hidden but they can make you piss in a jar and possibly provide dna semen and hair samples or to undergo tests for gunpowder residues on your hand btw that was why the chemical engineer arrested in the wtc explosion thrust his hands into a toilet filled with urine as the cops were breaking down the door the nitrogen in the urine would mask any residue from explosives i found it interesting the news reported his acts but not his reasons somewhere perhaps a privacy group they discussed the legal ramifications of using a password like i shot jimmy hoffa and his body is in a storage locker in camden a while back the impression i got was that real judges would dismiss arguments that this password is self incrimination as first year law school sophistry the fact that you use a statement for a password has no bearing on the veracity of that phrase you are not being asked to incrimidate yourself e g where did you bury the body you are being asked to provide information necessary to execute a legal search warrant refusing to provide the password is akin to refusing to provide a key to a storage locker except that they could always force their way into the locker of course that doesn t mean you have to help them understand what they find or point out things they overlooked in their search bear giles bear fsl noaa gov
sci.crypt	what is going on in article qhc p d transfer stratus com cme ellisun sw stratus com carl ellison writes in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu rwebb nyx cs du edu russell webb writes call me paranoid but this is the same kind of scare story which dorothy denning was citing while calling for the limitation of cryptography i doubt that dd is behind this but i suspect that the fbi and maybe nsa are behind dd and those agencies could easily be mounting a nationwide campaign with our tax dollars to build up public outcry against digital communication especially against unbreakable encrypted communication what s going on here haven t you read any of noam chomsky s works a widely used information net outside the control of the right people is unthinkable hundreds of billions of dollars will be spent to wipe it out sorry regulate and order it once the major media and poitical powers wake up to the efect it can have if you can t be bothered reading get the video manufacturing consent paul
sci.crypt	re hard drive security for fbi targets do a straight encryption of your keyrings and put the results with misleading names somewhere they won t be noticed eg in the windows directory nobody knows what half those files are do a straight encryption of a bat file that will decrypt the keyrings to ramdisk and will set pgppath to point at it set up another bat file to decrypt and execute the first again on ram disk have it take the name of the target file as an argument so that there is no link between this file and the non existent batch file referred to by the rest of the system comment it so it looks like a test script for fooling around with pgp set pgppath to the pgp directory leave the original keyrings that came with pgp in the directory with pgp a good indication that you are playing with but haven t made serious use of pgp add a set of keys with your name and a really simple passphrase never use it or use it as your widely published key for low security e mail when needed run the second bat file make sure all intermediate and plainfiles are generated on ramdisk when you hear the concussion grenade hit the power switch cheers marc marc thibault cis put another log marc tanda isis org nc freenet aa on the fire
sci.crypt	source to mactinosh pgp in c available source code to macintosh pgp now available via anonymous ftp ftp netcom com cd pub grady mget macpgp src sea hqx mget macpgp srcsignature convert to a compact pro self extracting archive with binhex if appropriate check the digital signature of the hqx file with your copy of pgp non macintosh users wishing to check the digital signature please note that cr denotes the end of line on a macintosh not lf or crlf for the purposes of the itar act this unclassified technical documentation is hereby released into the public domain however no representation is made as to copyright or other commercial rights that may exist in this package full source code symantec think c projects and full user documentation is included for both and versions of pretty good privacy a strong public key encryption and digital signature application using the rsa algorithm patented in the united states and the idea cipher patented in switzerland no executables are included executables are available via anonymous ftp from leif thep lu se sweden night nig ac jp japan van bc wimsey bc ca canada soda berkeley edu p r of berkeley src doc ic ac uk united kingdom ghost dsi unimi it italy plaza aarnet edu au australia nic funet fi finland other s public keys are available from anonymous server sites send message subject help for more information internet sites pgp public keys junkbox cc iastate edu michael graff explorer iastate edu ftp tbird cc iastate edu usr explorer public keys pgp pgp public keys toxicwaste mit edu derek atkins warlord mit edu ftp toxicwaste mit edu pub keys public keys pgp pgp public keys phil utmb edu john perry perry phil utmb edu ftp phil utmb edu pub pgp public keys pgp pgp public keys demon co uk mark turner mark demon co uk ftp ftp demon co uk pub pgp pubring pgp uucp site pgp public keys jpunix com john perry perry jpunix com the executable application built from these sources has not been licensed by rsa data security inc nor has the rsa public key algorithm or the idea block cipher algorithm been approved by the national security agency this unclassified technical documentation is made available for educational use only possession distribution or use of an executable binary built from this source may be a civil or criminal offense suggested improvements bugs or comments should be directly posted to alt security pgp or to the principal developers listed among the source documents general questions and comments about public key cryptography or the idea cipher may be posted to alt security pgp or to the sci crypt usenet groups grady netcom com ef e ad d d c f fc ac f d f e f
sci.crypt	re fifth amendment and passwords ashall magnus acs ohio state edu andrew s hall writes i am postive someone will correct me if i am wrong but doesn t the fifth also cover not being forced to do actions that are self incriminating from mike godwin mnemonic eff org posted with permission carl sadly it does not suspects can be compelled to give handwriting and voice exemplars and to take blood and dna tests e g the police couldn t demand that you silently take them to where the body is buried or where the money is hidden no but they could compell you to produce the key to a safe where as it happens evidence that will convict you is stored the crypto key disclosure issue hasn t come up yet but current law suggests that it s a loser for the defendant he ll be compelled to turn over the key the test for compelled self incrimination is whether the material to be disclosed in itself tends to inculpate the discloser in the example i gave above the safe key itself has no testimonial value ergo it can be disclosed under compulsion e g subpoena duces tecum moreover the government can always immunize the disclosure of a crypto key compelling you to disclose the key at the price of not using the fact of your disclosure as evidence in the case against you of course they can use whatever they discover as a result of this disclosure against you mike carl kadie i do not represent any organization this is just me kadie cs uiuc edu
sci.crypt	re pgp pem and rfc s was cryptography patents charles kincy ckincy cs umr edu wrote all i have to say is yeah right if you re willing to pay them mucho big bucks and or use the routines they tell you to do doesn t sound very reasonable to me all i have to say is this is full of shit i have negotiated a license and the bucks are incredibly reasonable with an upfront charge on a sliding scale depending on your capitalization if you are a startup and can t afford it you can t afford to start up in the first place why do people insist on making unequivocal statements about that which they know nothing but i don t guess pkp and rsa are interested in big bucks maybe they have some other agenda secure communications only for government agents perhaps have you considered treatment for paranoia the government is the single biggest thorn in rsa s side some limitation let me guess don t use the code in any way pkp or rsa doesn t like such as providing secure communications for the average citizen that was exactly its purpose if you know anything about it there is nothing at all preventing the average citizen using it only selling it i hope my cynicism is misplaced here go ahead i m not afraid to be wrong every once in a while but i have an uneasy feeling that i am right it is and you are wrong yet you emotionally state a bunch of crap as fact with a tiny disclaimer at the end check your facts first and grow up why is there such a strong correlation between interest in cryptography and immaturity i wonder bob cain normally rcain netcom com
sci.crypt	privacy anonymity on the internet faq of archive name net privacy part last modified version identity privacy and anonymity on the internet c l detweiler not for commercial use except by permission from author otherwise may be freely copied not to be altered please credit if quoted summary information on email and account privacy anonymous mailing and posting encryption and other privacy and rights issues associated with use of the internet and global networks in general search for for exact section search for underline for next section part this file identity what is identity on the internet why is identity un important on the internet how does my email address not identify me and my background how can i find out more about somebody from their email address why is identification un stable on the internet what is the future of identification on the internet privacy what is privacy on the internet why is privacy un important on the internet how in secure are internet networks how in secure is my account how in secure are my files and directories how in secure is x windows how in secure is my email how am i not liable for my email and postings how do i provide more less information to others on my identity who is my sysadmin what does s he know about me why is privacy un stable on the internet what is the future of privacy on the internet anonymity what is anonymity on the internet why is anonymity un important on the internet how can anonymity be protected on the internet what is anonymous mail what is anonymous posting why is anonymity un stable on the internet what is the future of anonymity on the internet part next file resources what unix programs are related to privacy how can i learn about or use cryptography what is the cypherpunks mailing list what are some privacy related newsgroups faqs what is internet privacy enhanced mail pem what are other request for comments rfcs related to privacy how can i run an anonymous remailer what are references on privacy in email what are some email usenet and internet use policies what is the mit crosslink anonymous message tv program miscellaneous what is digital cash what is a hacker or cracker what is a cypherpunk what is steganography and anonymous pools what is security through obscurity what are identity daemons what standards are needed to guard electronic privacy issues what is the electronic frontier foundation eff who are computer professionals for social responsibility cpsr what was operation sun devil and the steve jackson game case what is integrated services digital network isdn what is the national research and education network nren what is the fbi s proposed digital telephony act what other u s legislation is related to privacy on networks what are references on rights in cyberspace what is the computers and academic freedom caf archive footnotes what is the background behind the internet how is internet anarchy like the english language most wanted list change history part last file anonymizing what are some known anonymous remailing and posting sites what are the responsibilities associated with anonymity how do i kill anonymous postings what is the history behind anonymous posting servers what is the value of anonymity should anonymous posting to all groups be allowed what should system operators do with anonymous postings what is going on with anon penet fi maintained by j helsingius identity what is identity on the internet generally today people s identity on the internet is primarily determined by their email address in the sense that this is their most unchanging face in the electronic realm this is your login name qualified by the complete address domain information for example ld longs lance colostate edu people see this address when receiving mail or reading usenet posts from you and in other situations where programs record usage some obsolete forms of addresses such as bitnet still persist in email messages additional information on the path that a message takes is prepended to the message received by the recipient this information identifies the chain of hosts involved in the transmission and is a very accurate trace of its origination this type of identify and forward protocol is also used in the usenet protocol to a lesser extent forging these fields requires corrupted mailing software at sites involved in the forwarding and is very uncommon not so uncommon is forging the chain at the origination point so that all initial sites in the list are faked at the time the message is created tracing these messages can be difficult or impossible when the initial faked fields are names of real machines and represent real transfer routes why is identity un important on the internet the concept of identity is closely intertwined with communication privacy and security which in turn are all critical aspects of computer networks for example the convenience of communication afforded by email would be impossible without conventions for identification but there are many potential abuses of identity possible that can have very severe consequences with massive computer networks at the forefront of the issue which can potentially either exacerbate or solve these problems verifying that an identity is correct is called authentication and one classic example of the problems associated with it is h g well s war of the worlds radio broadcast that fooled segments of the population into thinking that an alien invasion was in progress hoaxes of this order are not uncommon on usenet and forged identities makes them more insidious people and their reputations can be assaulted by forgery however the fluidity of identity on the internet is for some one of its most attractive features identity is just as useful as it is harmful a professor might carefully explain a topic until he finds he is talking to an undergraduate a person of a particular occupation may be able to converse with others who might normally shun him some prejudices are erased but on the other hand many prejudices are useful a scientist might argue he can better evaluate the findings of a paper as a reviewer if he knows more about the authors likewise he may be more likely to reject it based on unfair or irrelevant criteria on the other side of the connection the author may find identities of reviewers useful in exerting pressure for acceptance identity is especially crucial in establishing and regulating credit not necessarily financial and ownership and usage many functions in society demand reliable and accurate techniques for identification heavy reliance will be placed on digital authentication as global economies become increasingly electronic many government functions and services are based on identification and law enforcement frequently hinges on it hence employees of many government organizations push toward stronger identification structures but when does identification invade privacy the growth of the internet is provoking social forces of massive proportions decisions made now on issues of identity will affect many future users especially as the network becomes increasingly global universal widespread and entrenched and the positive or adverse affects of these actions intended and inadvertent will literally be magnified exponentially how does my email address not identify me and my background your email address may contain information that influences people s perceptions of your background the address may identify you as from a department at a particular university an employee at a company or a government worker it may contain your last name initials or cryptic identification codes independent of both in the us some are based on parts of social security numbers others are in the form u where the number is incremented in the order that new users are added to the system standard internet addresses also can contain information on your broad geographical location or nationhood however none of this information is guaranteed to be correct or be there at all the fields in the domain qualification of the username are based on rather arbitrary organization such as mostly invisible network cabling distributions the only point to make is that early fields in the address are more specific such as specific computer names or local networks and the later ones the most general such as continental domains typically the first field is the name of the computer receiving mail gleaning information from the email address alone is sometimes an inspired art or an inconsistent and futile exercise for more information see the faqs on email addresses and known geographical distributions below however unix utilities exist to aid in the quest see the question on this common suffixes us united states uk united kingdom ca canada fi finland au australia edu university or college com commercial organization org other e g nonprofit organization gov government mil military site how can i find out more about somebody with a given email address one simple way is to send email to that address asking another way is to send mail to the postmaster at that address i e postmaster address although the postmaster s job is more to help find user id s of particular people given their real name and solve mail routing problems the sysadmin i e root address may also be able to supply information users with related email address may have information however all of these methods rely on the time and patience of others so use them minimally one of the most basic tools for determining identity over the internet is the unix utility finger the basic syntax is finger user here there everywhere this utility uses communication protocols to query the computer named in the address for information on the user named the response is generated completely by the receiving computer and may be in any format possible responses are as follows a message unknown host meaning some aspect of the address is incorrect two lines with no information and a message in real life in which case the receiving computer could not find any kind of a match on the username the finger utility may return this response in other situations a listing of information associated with multiple users some computers will search only for matching user ids others will attempt to find the username you specified as a substring of all actual full names of users kept in a local database at some sites finger can be used to get a list of all users on the system with a finger address in general this is often considered weak security however because attackers know valid user id s to crack passwords more information on the fields returned by finger is given below more information on finger and locating people s email addresses is given in the email faq such as the whois lookup utility just as you can use these means to find out about others they can use them to find out about you you can finger yourself to find out what is publicly reported by your unix system about you be careful when modifying finger data virtually anyone with internet access worldwide can query this information in one amazing case the new york times writer j markoff uncovered the identity of r morris author of the internet worm through the use of an anonymous tip and finger see the book cyberspace by k hafner and j markoff why is identification un stable on the internet generally identity is an amorphous and almost nonexistent concept on the internet for a variety of reasons one is the inherent fluidity of cyberspace where people emerge and submerge frequently and absences are not readily noted in the community most people remember faces and voices the primary means of casual identification in the real world the arbitary and cryptic sequences of letters and digits comprising most email addresses are not particularly noticeable or memorable and far from a unique identification of an individual who may use multiple accounts on multiple machines anywhere in the world currently internet users do not really have any great assurances that the messages in email and usenet are from who they appear to be a person s mailing address is far from an identification of an individual anyone with access to the account e g they know the password either legitimately or otherwise can send mail with that address in the from line email addresses for an individual tend to change frequently as they switch jobs or make moves inside their organizations as part of current mailing protocol standards forging the from line in mail messages is a fairly trivial operation for many hackers the status and path information prepended to messages by intermediate hosts is generally unforgeable in general while possible forgeries are fairly rare on most newsgroups and in email besides these pathological cases abve there are many basic problems with today s internet protocols affecting identification on the internet internet mail standards described in rfc are still evolving rapidly and not entirely orderly for example standards for mail address munging or parsing tend to vary slightly between sites and frequently mean the difference between finding addresses and bouncing mail domain names and computer names are frequently changed at sites and there are delays in the propagation of this data addresses cannot be resolved when certain critical computers crash such as the receiving computer or other computers involved in resolving names into addresses called nameservers a whole slew of problems is associated with nameservers if they are not updated they will not find name addresses and even the operation of what constitutes updating has different interpretations at different sites the current internet mailing and addressing protocols are slightly anachronistic in that they were created when the network was somewhat obscure and not widespread with only a fraction of the traffic it now sees today a large proportion of internet traffic is email comprising millions of messages what is the future of identification on the internet some new technologies and standards are introducing facial images and voice messages into mail and these will improve the sense of community that comes from the familiarity of identification however they are not currently widespread require large amounts of data transfer standardized software and make some compromises in privacy promising new cryptographic techniques may make digital signatures and digital authentication common see below also the trend in usenet standards is toward greater authentication of posted information on the other hand advances in ensuring anonymity such as remailers are forthcoming see below privacy what is privacy on the internet generally while privacy has multiple connotations in society and perhaps even more on the internet in cyberspace most take it to mean that you have exclusive use and access to your account and the data stored on and and directed to it such as email and you do not encounter arbitrary restrictions or searches in other words others may obtain data associated with your account but not without your permission these ideas are probably both fairly limiting and liberal in their scope in what most internet users consider their private domains some users don t expect or want any privacy some expect and demand it why is privacy un important on the internet this is a somewhat debatable and inflammatory topic arousing passionate opinions on the internet some take privacy for granted and are rudely surprised to find it tenuous or nonexistent most governments have rules that protect privacy such as the illegal search and seizure clause of the u s constitution adopted by others but have many that are antithetical to it such as laws prohibiting secret communications or allowing wiretapping these rules generally carry over to the internet with few specific rules governing it however the legal repercussions of the global internet are still largely unknown and untested i e no strong legal precedents and court cases the fact that internet traffic frequently passes past international boundaries and is not centrally managed significantly complicates and strongly discourages its regulation how in secure are internet networks theoretically people at any site in the chain of sites with access to hardware and network media that transmits data over the internet could potentially monitor or archive it however the sheer volume and general noise inherent to this data makes these scenarios highly improbable even by government agencies with supposedly vast funding and resources technologies exist to tap magnetic fields given off by electrical wires without detection less obscurely any machine with a network connection is a potential station for traffic detection but this scenario requires knowledge and access to very low level hardware the network card to pursue if even possible a company network general inc is one of many that manufactures and markets sophisticated network monitoring tools that can filter and read packets by arbitrary criteria for troubleshooting purposes but the cost of this type of device is prohibitive for casual use known instances of the above types of security breaches at a major scale such as at network hubs are very rare the greatest risks tend to emerge locally note that all these approaches are almost completely defused with the use of cryptography how in secure is my account by default not very there are a multitude of factors that may reinforce or compromise aspects of your privacy on the internet first your account must be secure from other users the universal system is to use a password but if it is weak i e easy to guess this security is significantly diminished somewhat surprisingly and frighteningly to some certain users of the system particularly the administrator generally have unlimited access regardless of passwords and may grant that access to others this means that they may read any file in your account without detection furthermore not universally known most unix systems keep fairly extensive accounting records of when and where you logged in what commands you execute and when they are executed in fact login information is usually public most features of this auditing or process accounting information are enabled by default after the initial installation and the system administrator may customize it to strengthen or weaken it to satisfy performance or privacy aims this information is frequently consulted for troubleshooting purposes and may otherwise be ignored this data tracks unsuccessful login attempts and other suspicious activities on the system a traditional part of the unix system that tracks user commands is easily circumvented by the user with the use of symbolic links described in man ln unix implementations vary widely particularly in tracking features and new sophisticated mechanisms are introduced by companies regularly typically system adminstrators augment the basic unix functionality with public domain programs and locally developed tools for monitoring and use them only to isolate suspicious activity as it arises e g remote accesses to the passwd file incorrect login attempts remote connection attempts etc generally you should expect little privacy on your account for various reasons potentially every keystroke you type could be intercepted by someone else system administrators make extensive backups that are completely invisible to users which may record the states of an account over many weeks erased files can under many operating systems be undeleted most automated services keep logs of use for troubleshooting or otherwise for example ftp sites usually log the commands and record the domain originations of users including anonymous ones some software exacerbates these problems see the section on x windows in security indepedent of malevolent administrators are fellow users a much more commonly harmful threat there are multiple ways to help ensure that your account will not be accessed by others and compromises can often be traced to failures in these guidelines choose a secure password change it periodically make sure to logout always do not leave a machine unattended for long make sure no one watches you when you type your password avoid password references in email be conservative in the use of the rhost file use utilities like xlock to protect a station but be considerate be wary of situations where you think you should supply your password there are only several basic situations where unix prompts you for a password when you are logging in to a system or changing your password situations can arise in which prompts for passwords are forged by other users especially in cases where you are talking to them such as internet relay chat also be aware that forged login screens are one method to illegitimately obtain passwords thanks to jim mattson mattson cs ucsd edu for contributions here how in secure are my files and directories the most important privacy considerations are related to file rights and many lapses can be traced to their misunderstood nature or haphazard maintenance be aware of the rights associated with your files and directories in unix if the x execute right on your parent directory is off for users groups and other these users cannot gain information on anything in your directories anything less may allow others to read change or even delete files in your home directory the rights on a directory supersede the rights associated with files in that directory for a directory x means that access to the files or subdirectories in the directory is possible if you know their names to list the contents of the directory however requires the r right by default most accounts are accessable only to the owner but the initial configuration varies between sites based on administrator preference the default file mode specifies the initial rights associated with newly created files and can be set in the shell with umask the details of rights implementations tend to vary between versions of unix consult man pages on chmod and ls examples traver lance ls ld drwx ld jan users ld here is a listing of the rights associated with a user s home directory denoted by the columns at the left identify what rights are available the first column identifies the entry as a directory and the next three columns mean that read write and execute rights respectively are permitted for that user for directories the x right means that contents file and subdirectory names within that directory can be listed the subsequent columns indicate that no other users have any rights to anything in the directory tree originating at that point they can t even see any lower files or subdirectories the hierarchy is completely invisible to them traver lance ls l msg rw r r ld jan msg traver lance chmod u rw g o msg traver lance ls l msg rw ld jan msg here the modes on the file msg were changed to take away rights from group and other note that ls l file requires both the r right to get the list of files and subdirectories and the x right to access the files and subdirectories in order to get their size etc for example suppose the directory foo has rights dr r r the following is possible ls foo these commands would fail independent of file rights ls l foo ls l foo file cat foo file cd foo if the directory foo has rights d x x x the following are possible if it is known beforehand that foo contains an r readable file named file ls l foo file cat foo file cd foo the following commands fail ls foo ls l foo thanks to uwe waldmann uwe mpi sb mpg de for contributions here how in secure is x windows x windows is the primary software developed by the mit athena project which is funded by u s government grants to develop applications to harness the power of networks in enhancing computational tasks particularly the human computer interface the software implements a client server interface to a computer via graphical windows in this case the client is the application requesting or utilizing graphical resources such as windows or a mouse and the server is the machine that provides them in many situations the client is an application program running on the same machine as the server the great utility of x windows comes from its complete dissociation of the client and server so that windows may be broadcast to a server at a remote location from the client unfortunately this dynamic power also introduces many deep intricate and complicated security considerations the primary security and privacy issue associated with x windows is that much more sensitive data may be sent over a network and over wider regions than in the case where the human is situated near the host computer currently there is no encryption of data such as screen updates and keystrokes in x windows due to either intentional design decisions or unintentional design flaws early versions of the x window system are extremely insecure anyone with an account on the server machine can disrupt that display or read it electronically based on access to the device unix by any regular user there are no protections from this type of access in these versions the problem arises because the security is completely based on machine addresses rather than users such that any user at a trusted machine is himself trusted quoting from x documentation man xsecurity any client on a host in the host access control list is allowed access to the x server this system can work reasonably well in an environment where everyone trusts everyone or when only a single person can log into a given machine this system does not work well when multiple people can log in to a single machine and mutual trust does not exist with the access control list the xhost command may prevent some naive attempts i e those other than the direct access unix evasion the syntax as typed on the host machine is xhost name where name is the domain name or internet address of an authorized client machine by default clients running nonlocal to the host are disabled public domain programs to disrupt a display momentarily such as flip or slowly mirror the screen image or cause pixels to melt down to the bottom have been circulating on the internet among hackers for several years and played as pranks on unsuspecting or inexperienced users much more serious security breaches are conceivable from similar mechanisms exploiting this inherent weaknesses the minimal easily bypassed trusted security mode of xhost has been jokingly referred to as x hanging open security terrible new versions of the x window system x r and higher by default make server access as secure as the file system using a xauthority file and magic cookies remote machines must have a code in the xauthority file in the home directory that matches the code allowed by the server many older programs and even new vendor supplied code does not support or is incompatible with magic cookies the basic magic cookie mechanism is vulnerable to monitoring techniques described earlier because no encryption of keys occurs in transmission x r also includes other sophisticated encryption mechanisms try man xsecurity to find out what is supported at your site even though improved security mechanisms have been available in x windows since local sites often update this software infrequently because installation is extremely complex thanks to marc vanheyningen mvanheyn whale cs indiana edu jim mattson mattson cs ucsd edu and bill marshall marshall cs iastate edu for contributions here how in secure is my email by default not very the characters that you are reading are almost certainly encoded in ascii the american standard code for information interchange that maps alphabetic and symbolic characters onto numeric codes and vice versa virtually every computer system uses this code and if not has ways of converting to and from it when you write a mail message by default it is being sent in ascii and since the standard is virtually universal there is no intrinsic privacy despite milleniums worth of accumulated cryptographic knowledge cryptographic technologies are only recently being established that afford high priority to privacy as a primary criteria in computer and network design some potential pitfalls in privacy are as follows the most serious threats are instances of immature or unscrupulous system operators reading private mail in the spool files at a local site i e at the source or destination of the message such as a university system administrators may also release files to law enforcement agencies but conventions and protocols for warrants involving computer searches have still not been strongly established and tested legally note that bounced messages go to postmasters at a given site in their entirety this means that if you address mail with an incorrect address it has a good chance of being seen by a human other than the recipient typically new user accounts are always set up such that the local mail directory is private but this is not guaranteed and can be overridden finally be aware that some mailing lists email addresses of everyone on a list are actually publicly accessable via mail routing software mechanisms this feature can be disabled most potential compromises in email privacy can be thoroughly avoided with the use of strong end to end cryptography which has its own set of caveats for example unscrupulous administrators may still be a threat if the encryption site is shared or nonlocal see the sections on email privacy and email policies how am i not liable for my email and postings as punishment or whatever your system administrator can revoke certain privileges such as emailing usenet posting or reading certain groups file transferring remote communications or generally any subset of capabilities available from your account this all is completely at the discretion of the local administrator and under the procedures followed at a particular site which in many cases are haphazard and crisis oriented currently there are virtually no widespread uniform guidelines or procedures for restricting use to any internet services and local administrators are free to make arbitrary decisions on access today punitive measures are regularly applied in various situations in the typical scenario complaint s reach a system adminstrator regarding abuses by a user usually but not necessarily preceded by complaints to the user in email regarding that person s objectionable email or postings abusive posters to usenet are usually first given admonitions from their system administrators as urged by others on the net the debate persists endlessly on many newsgroups whether this is also used as a questionable means of attacking or silencing harmless crackpots or censoring unpopular opinions system administrators at remote sites regularly cooperate to squelch severe cases of abuse in general however by tradition usenet readers are remarkably tolerant of diverse views and uses of the system but a colorful vocabularly of slang helps describe their alternatives when this patience is sapped the options wielded by the individual user are to simply advance to the next message referred to as hitting the n key or to plonk annoying posters according to the hacker s dictionary the sound a jerk makes at the end of a fall to the bottom of a kill file in cases where punitive actions are applied generally system administrators are least likely to restrict email usenet postings are much more commonly restricted either to individual users or entire groups such as a university campus restrictions are most commonly associated with the following abuses harassing or threatening notes email terrorism illegal uses e g piracy or propagation of copyrighted material ad hominem attacks i e insulting the reputation of the poster instead of citing the content of the message intentional or extreme vulgarity and offensiveness inappropriate postings esp binary files in regular groups mail bombing inundating mail boxes with numerous or massive files major problems originate from lack of distinctions in private and official email or postings most users have internet access via accounts at businesses or universities and their activities on the internet can be construed as representative of their parent organizations many people put disclaimers in their signatures in an attempt dissociate their identity and activities from parent organizations as a precaution a recent visible political case involves the privacy of electronic mail written by white house staff members of the bush administration following are some guidelines acquaint yourself with your company or university policy if possible avoid use of your company email address for private communication use a disclaimer keep a low profile avoid flamewars or simply don t post avoid posting information that could be construed to be proprietary or internal the following references are available from ftp eff com see also the section on internet use policies pub academic banned pub academic banned computer material that was banned challenged in academia in and including usenet hierarchies pub academic cases this is an on line collection of information about specific computers and academic freedom cases file readme is a detailed description of the items in the directory pub academic faq netnews liability notes on university liability for usenet how do i provide more less information to others on my identity the public information of your identity and account is mostly available though the unix utility finger described above you have control over most of this information with the utility chfn the specifics vary between sites on some systems use passwd f you can provide unlimited information in the plan file which is copied directly to the destination during the fingering a technique that works at some sites allows you to find out who is finger ing you and even to vary the plan file sent to them your signature is determined by the environment variable signature usenet signatures are conventionally stored in the signature file in your home directory providing less information on your online identity is more difficult and involved one approach is to ask your system adminstrator to change or delete information about you such as your full name you may be able to obtain access on a public account or one from someone unrelated to you personally you may be able to remotely login via modem or otherwise to computers that you are not physically near these are tactics for hiding or masking your online activities but nothing is foolproof consult man pages on the chmod command and the default file mode generally files on a shared system have good safeguards within the user pool but very little protection is possible from corrupt system administrators to mask your identity in email or on usenet you can use different accounts more untraceable are new anonymous posting and remailing services that are very recently being established see below who is my sysadmin what does s he know about me the requirements and screening for getting a system administration job and thereby access to all information on a system vary widely between sites and are sometimes frighteningly lax especially at universities many unix systems at universities are largely managed by undergraduates with a background in computing and often hacking in general commercial and industrial sites are more strict on qualifications and background and government sites are extremely strict the system adminstrator root user can monitor what commands you used and at what times s he may have a record backups of files on your account over a few weeks s he can monitor when you send email or post usenet messages and potentially read either s he may have access to records indicating what hosts you are using both locally and elsewhere administrators sometimes employ specialized programs to track strange or unusual activity which can potentially be misused why is privacy un stable on the internet for the numerous reasons listed above privacy should not be an expectation with current use of the internet furthermore large parts of the internet are funded by the u s nsf national science foundation which places certain restrictions on its use such as prohibiting commercial use some high level officials in this and other government agencies may be opposed to emerging techniques to guarantee privacy such as encryption and anonymous services historically the major threats to privacy on the internet have been local perhaps the most common example of this are the widespread occurrences of university administrators refusing to carry some portion of usenet newsgroups labelled as pornographic the alternative hierarchy in the usenet system which has virtually no restrictions on propagation and new group creation is frequently targeted although this material may appear anywhere from the global point of view traffic is generally completely unimpeded on the internet and only the most egregious offenders are pursued for example verbatim transcriptions of copyrighted material such as newspaper or magazine articles are posted to usenet with regularity without major consequences some email complaints may ensue more astonishing to some is that currently significant portions of usenet traffic and less so internet traffic is comprised of sexually explicit digitized images almost entirely originating from copyrighted material newsgroups such as alt sex regularly have the highest traffic what is the future of privacy on the internet some argue that the internet currently has an adequate or appropriate level of privacy others will argue that as a prototype for future global networks it has woefully inadequate safeguards the internet is growing to become a completely global international superhighway for data and this traffic will inevitably entail data such as voice messages postal mail and many other items of extremely personal nature computer items that many people consider completely private such as their local hard drives will literally be inches from global network connections also sensitive industrial and business information is exchanged over networks currently and this volume may conceivably merge with the internet most would agree that for these basic but sensitive uses of the internet no significant mechanisms are currently in place to ensure much privacy new standards are calling for uniform introduction of privacy enhanced mail pem which uses encryption technologies to ensure privacy so that privacy protection is automatic and may significantly improve safeguards the same technology that can be extremely destructive to privacy such as with surreptitious surveilance can be overwhelmingly effective in protecting it e g with encryption some government agencies are opposed to unlimited privacy in general and believe that it should lawfully be forfeited in cases of criminal conduct e g court authorized wiretapping however powerful new technologies to protect privacy on computers are becoming increasingly popular provoking some to say that the cat is out of the bag and the genie can t be put back in the bottle in less idiomatic terms they believe that the spread of strong cryptography is already underway will be socially and technically unstoppable to date no feasible system that guarantees both secure communication and government oversight has been proposed the two goals are largely incompatible proposals for registration of secret keys by d denning on sci crypt for example have been met with hot controversy at best and ridicule and derision at worst mainly because of concerns for the right to privacy and objections of inherent feasibility electronic privacy issues and particularly the proper roles of networks and the internet will foreseeably become highly visible and explosive over the next few years anonymity what is anonymity on the internet simply stated anonymity is the absence of identity the ultimate in privacy however there are several variations on this simple theme a person may wish to be consistently identified by a certain pseudonym or handle and establish a reputation under it in some area providing pseudo anonymity a person may wish to be completely untraceable for a single one way message a sort of hit and run or a person may wish to be openly anonymous but carry on a conversation with others with either known or anonymous identities via an anonymous return address a user may wish to appear as a regular user but actually be untraceable sometimes a user wishes to hide who he is sending mail to in addition to the message itself the anonymous item itself may be directed at individuals or groups a user may wish to access some service and hide all signs of the association all of these uses are feasible on the internet but are currently tricky to carry out in practice because of all the tracking mechanisms inherent to operating systems and network protocols officials of the nsf and other government agencies may be opposed to any of these uses because of the potential for abuse nevertheless the inherent facelessness of large networks will always guarantee a certain element of anonymity why is anonymity un important on the internet anonymity is another powerful tool that can be beneficial or problematic depending on its use arguably absence of identification is important as the presence of it it may be the case that many strong benefits from electronic anonymity will be discovered that were unforeseen and unpredicted because true anonymity has been historically very difficult to establish one can use anonymity to make personal statements to a colleague that would sabotage a relationship if stated openly such as employer employee scenarios one can use it to pass information and evade any threat of direct retribution for example whistleblowers reporting on government abuses economic social or political can bring issues to light without fear of stigma or retaliation sensitive personal potentially damaging information is often posted to some usenet groups a risky situation where anonymity allows conversations to be carried on completely independent of the identities of the participants some police departments run phone services that allow anonymous reporting of crimes such uses would be straightforward on the network unfortunately extortion and harassment become more insidious with assurances of anonymity how can anonymity be protected on the internet the chief means as alluded to above are masking identities in email and posting however anonymous accounts public accounts as accessable and anonymous as e g public telephones may be effective as well but this use is generally not officially supported and even discouraged by some system adminstrators and nsf guidelines the nonuniformity in the requirements of obtaining accounts at different sites and institutions makes anonymous accounts generally difficult to obtain to the public at large many communications protocols are inherently detrimental to anonymity virtually every protocol in existence currently contains information on both sender and receiver in every packet new communications protocols will likely develop that guarantee much higher degrees of secure anonymous communication what is anonymous mail one approach to anonymizing mail has been to set up an anonymous server that when activated by email to its address responds by allocating and supplying an anonymous id that is unique to the person requesting it based on his email address this will vary for the same person for different machine address email originations to send anonymous mail the user sends email directed to the server containing the final destination the server anonymizes the message by stripping of identification information and forwards the message which appears to originate from the anonymous server only from the corresponding anonymous user id this is the interactive use of anonymity or pseudonymity mentioned above another more fringe approach is to run a cypherpunk remailer from a regular user account no root system privileges are required these are currently being pioneered by eric hughes and hal finney hal alumni caltech edu the operator runs a process on a machine that anonymizes mail sent to him with certain characteristics that distinguish it from his regular incoming mail typically fields in the header one has been implemented as a perl script running on unix several of these are in existence currently but sites and software currently are highly unstable they may be in operation outside of system administrator knowledge the remailers don t generally support anonymous return addresses mail that is incorrectly addressed is received by the operator generally the user of the remailer has to disavow any responsibility for the messages forwarded through his system although actually may be held liable regardless these approaches have several serious disadvantages and weaknesses the anonymous server approach requires maintaining a mapping of anonymous id s to real addresses that must be maintained indefinitely one alternative is to allow deallocation of aliases at the request of the user but this has not been implemented yet although an unlikely scenario traffic to any of these sites could conceivably be monitored from the outside necessitating the use of cryptography for basic protection local administrators can shut them down either out of caprice or under pressure from local network or government agencies unscrupulous providers of the services can monitor the traffic that goes through them most remailers currently keep logs that may be inspected the cypherpunk approach tends to be highly unstable because these operators are basically network users who do not own the equipment and are accountable to their own system administrators who may be unaware of the use and unsympathetic to the philosophy of anonymity when the operation is discovered regarding it as illicit use in all cases a high degree of trust is placed in the anonymous server operator by the user currently the most direct route to anonymity involves using smtp protocols to submit a message directly to a server with arbitrary field information this practice not uncommon to hackers and the approach used by remailers is generally viewed with hostility by most system administrators information in the header routing data and logs of network port connection information may be retained that can be used to track the originating site in practice this is generally infeasible and rarely carried out some administrators on the network will contact local administrators to request a message be tracked and its writer admonished or punished more severely such as revoking the account all of this actually happening occasionally but infrequently see the sections known anonymous mail and posting sites and responsibilities associated with anonymity what is anonymous posting anonymous servers have been established as well for anonymous usenet posting with all the associated caveats above monitored traffic capricious or risky local circumstances logging make sure to test the system at least once by e g anonymous posting to misc test however some operators don t recommend this because many sites autorespond to test messages possibly causing the anonymous server to allocate anonymous ids for those machines see the responsibilties associated with anonymous posting before proceeding another direct route involves using nntp protocols to submit a message directly to a newserver with arbitrary field information this practice not uncommon to hackers is also generally viewed with hostility by most system administrators and similar consequences can ensue see the sections known anonymous mail and posting sites and responsibilities associated with anonymity why is anonymity un stable on the internet as noted many factors compromise the anonymity currently available to the general internet community and these services should be used with great caution to summarize the technology is in its infancy and current approaches are unrefined unreliable and not completely trustworthy no standards have been established and troubling situations of loss of anonymity and bugs in the software are prevalent here are some encountered and potential bugs one anonymous remailer reallocated already allocated anonymous return addresses others passed signature information embedded in messages unaltered address resolution problems resulting in anonymized mail bounced to a remailer are common forgeries to the anonymous server itself are a problem possibly allowing unauthorized users to potentially glean anon id email address mappings in the alias file this can be remedied with the use of passwords infinite mail loops are possible with chaining remailers source code is being distributed tested and refined for these systems but standards are progressing slowly and weakly the field is not likely to improve considerably without official endorsement and action by network agencies the whole idea is essentially still in its infancy and viewed with suspicion and distrust by many on the internet seen as illegitimate or favorable to criminality the major objection to anonymity over regular internet use is the perceived lack of accountability to system operators i e invulnerability to account restrictions resulting from outside complaints system adminstrators at some sites have threatened to filter anonymous news postings generated by the prominent servers from their redistribution flows this may only have the effect of encouraging server operators to create less characteristically detectable headers probably the least problematic approach and the most traditional to usenet is for individual users to deal with anonymous mail however they prefer e g ignoring it or filtering it with kill files what is the future of anonymity on the internet new anonymous protocols effectively serve to significantly increase safeguards of anonymity for example the same mechanism that routes email over multiple hosts thereby threatening its privacy can also be used to guarantee it in a scheme called chaining an anonymous message is passed through multiple anonymous servers before reaching a destination in this way generally multiple links of the chain have to be broken for security to be compromised re encryption at each link makes this scenario even more unlikely even more significantly the anonymous remailers could be spread over the internet globally so that local weaknesses such as corrupt governments or legal wiretapping within a nation would be more unlikely to sacrifice overall security by message tracing however remailers run by corrupt operators are possible the future of anonymous services on the internet is at this time highly uncertain and fraught with peril while specific groups seem to benefit significantly from anonymous posting capabilities many feel that unlimited newsgroup scope for anonymous posting is a disruptive and dangerous idea and detracts from discussions in serious groups the introduction of unlimited group anonymity may have fundamental repercussions on usenet conventions and distribution mechanisms such as moderated and alt groups have had in the past for example as part of new group creation the charter may specify whether anonymous posting is un welcome nevertheless the widespread introduction and use of anonymity may be inevitable based on traffic statistics anonymous services are in huge demand pervasive and readily available anonymity could carry significant and unforeseen social consequences however if its use is continued to be generally regarded as subversive it may be confined to the underground the ramifications of widespread introduction of anonymity to usenet are still largely unknown it is unclear whether it will provoke signficant amounts of new traffic or instead of expansion cause a shift where a greater portion of existing traffic is anonymized conceivably the services could play a role in influencing future mainstream social acceptance of usenet this is part of the privacy anonymity faq obtained via anonymous ftp to pit manager mit edu pub usenet news answers net privacy or newsgroups news answers sci answers alt answers every days written by l detweiler ld longs lance colostate edu all rights reserved
sci.crypt	privacy anonymity on the internet faq of archive name net privacy part last modified version identity privacy and anonymity on the internet c l detweiler not for commercial use except by permission from author otherwise may be freely copied not to be altered please credit if quoted summary email and account privacy anonymity file encryption academic computer policies relevant legislation and references eff and other privacy and rights issues associated with use of the internet and global networks in general search for for exact section search for underline for next section part this file resources what unix programs are related to privacy how can i learn about or use cryptography what is the cypherpunks mailing list what are some privacy related newsgroups faqs what is internet privacy enhanced mail pem what are other request for comments rfcs related to privacy how can i run an anonymous remailer what are references on privacy in email what are some email usenet and internet use policies what is the mit crosslink anonymous message tv program miscellaneous what is digital cash what is a hacker or cracker what is a cypherpunk what is steganography and anonymous pools what is security through obscurity what are identity daemons what standards are needed to guard electronic privacy issues what is the electronic frontier foundation eff who are computer professionals for social responsibility cpsr what was operation sun devil and the steve jackson game case what is integrated services digital network isdn what is the national research and education network nren what is the fbi s proposed digital telephony act what other u s legislation is related to privacy on networks what are references on rights in cyberspace what is the computers and academic freedom caf archive footnotes what is the background behind the internet how is internet anarchy like the english language most wanted list change history resources what unix programs are related to privacy for more information type man cmd or apropos keyword at the unix shell prompt passwd change password finger obtain information about a remote user chfn change information about yourself obtainable by remote users sometimes passwd f chmod change the rights associated with a file or directory umask shell change the default on creation file access rights ls list the rights associated with files and directories xhost allow or disable access control of particular users to an xwindow server last list the latest user logins on the system and their originations who list other users login idle times originations w list other users and what they are running xhost access control list for x window client use xauth control x window server authentication signature file in the home directory appended to usenet posts forward file used to forward email to other accounts xauthority file used for x window server authentication keys signature variable used for name in email and usenet postings the tcpdump packet tracing program is loosely based on smi s etherfind although none of the etherfind code remains it was originally written by van jacobson lawrence berkeley laboratory as part of an ongoing research project to investigate and improve tcp and internet gateway performance a current version is available via anonymous ftp from host ftp ee lbl gov currently at address file tcpdump tar z a compressed unix tar file this program is subject to the standard berkeley network software copyright how can i learn about or use cryptography a general introduction to mostly theoretical cryptographic issues especially those frequently discussed in sci crypt is available in faq form compiled by cme ellisun sw stratus com carl ellison gwyn brl mil doug gwyn smb ulysses att com steven bellovin nist u s national institute for standards and technology publishes an introductory paper on cryptography special publication public key cryptograhy by james nechvatal april available via anonymous ftp from csrc ncsl nist gov file pub nistpubs txt also via available anonymous ftp from wimsey bc ca as crypt txt z in the crypto directory covers technical mathematical aspects of encryption such as number theory more general information can be found in a faq by paul fahn of rsa labortories via anonymous ftp from rsa com in pub faq ps z see the readme file for information on the tex version also available as hardcopy for from rsa laboratories marine parkway redwood city ca send questions to faq editor rsa com phil zimmerman s pgp pretty good privacy public domain package for public key encryption is available at numerous sites and is in widespread use over the internet for general unix based file encryption including email consult the archie ftp database also see the newsgroup alt security pgp mailing list requests to info pgp request lucpul it luc edu from the ripem faq by marc vanheyningen mvanheyn whale cs indiana edu on news answers ripem is a program which performs privacy enhanced mail pem using the cryptographic techniques of rsa and des it allows your electronic mail to have the properties of authentication i e who sent it can be confirmed and privacy i e nobody can read it except the intended recipient ripem was written primarily by mark riordan mrr scss cl msu edu most of the code is in the public domain except for the rsa routines which are a library called rsaref licensed from rsa data security inc ripem is available via anonymous ftp to citizens and permanent residents in the u s from rsa com cd to rsaref and read the readme file for info ripem as well as some other crypt stuff has its home site on rpub cl msu edu which is open to non anonymous ftp for users in the u s and canada who are citizens or permanent residents to find out how to obtain access ftp there cd to pub crypt and read the file getting access note cryptography is generally not well integrated into email yet and some system proficiency is required by users to utilize it what is the cypherpunks mailing list eric hughes hughes toad com runs the cypherpunk mailing list dedicated to discussion about technological defenses for privacy in the digital domain send email to cypherpunks request toad com to be added or subtracted from the list from the charter the most important means to the defense of privacy is encryption to encrypt is to indicate the desire for privacy but to encrypt with weak cryptography is to indicate not too much desire for privacy cypherpunks hope that all people desiring privacy will learn how best to defend it what are some privacy related newsgroups faqs newsgroups alt comp acad freedom news alt comp acad freedom talk moderated and unmoderated issues related to academic freedom and privacy at universities documented examples of violated privacy in e g email documented examples of censorship as in e g limiting usenet groups local availability alt cyberpunks virtual reality science fiction by william gibson and bruce sterling cyberpunk in the mainstream alt hackers usenet network news transfer protocol nntp posting mechanisms simple mail transfer protocol smtp obligatory hack reports alt privacy general privacy issues involving taxpaying licensing social security numbers etc alt security comp security misc computer related security issues faq in news answers below alt security pgp alt security ripem dedicated to discussing public domain cryptographic software packages pgp or pretty good privacy software developed by phil zimmerman for public key encryption and ripem by mark riordan for public key and des encryption comp society privacy privacy issues associated with computer technologies examples caller identification social security numbers credit applications mailing lists etc moderated comp eff news comp eff talk moderated and unmoderated groups associated with the electronic frontier foundation started by mitch kapor for protecting civil and constitutional rights in the electronic realm news admin news admin policy concerns of news administrators nntp standards and mechanisms news lists usenet traffic distributions most frequent posters most voluminous groups most active sites etc sci crypt considers scientific and social issues of cryptography examples legitimate use of pgp public key patents des cryptographic security cypher breaking etc faqs faqs or frequently asked questions are available in the newsgroups answers or via anonymous ftp to pit manager mit edu also rtfm mit edu from the directory pub usenet news answers x where x is the archive name this faq is archived in the file net privacy others are network info part sources of information about the internet and how to connect to it through the nsf or commercial vendors alt security faq computer related security issues arising in alt security and comp security misc mostly unix related ssn privacy privacy issues associated with the use of the u s social security number ssn pdial public dialup internet accounts list college email part how to find email addresses for undergraduate and graduate students faculty and staff at various colleges and universities ripem faq information on ripem a program for public key mail encryption officially sanctioned by public key partners inc the company that owns patents on public key cryptography unix faq faq part frequently asked questions about unix including information on finger and terminal spying distributions known geographic university and network distributions what is internet privacy enhanced mail pem internet drafts on privacy enhanced mail pem describe a standard under revision for six years delineating the official protocols for email encryption the standard has only recently stabilized and implementations are being developed rfc privacy enhancement for internet electronic mail part i message encryption and authentication procedures j linn mcimail com rfc privacy enhancement for internet electronic mail part ii certificate based key management s kent kent bbn com rfc privacy enhancement for internet electronic mail part iv key certification and related services b kaliski burt rsa com rfc privacy enhancement for internet electronic mail part iii algorithms modes and identifiers d balenson belenson tis com send email to pem info tis com for more information see rfcs related to privacy for information on how to obtain rfcs what are other requests for comments rfcs related to privacy rfc smtp simple mail transfer protocol rfc nntp network news transfer protocol rfc standard for interchange of network news messages rfc glossary of networking terms rfc answers to experienced internet user questions rfc answers to new internet user questions rfc privacy issues in network information center databases rfc is fyi answers to commonly asked new internet user questions and includes basic terminology on the internet tcp ip smtp ftp internet organizations such as iab internet activities board and ietf internet enbgineering task force and a glossary of terms also from ftp eff org pub internet info internet q rfcs can be obtained via ftp from nic ddn mil with the pathname rfc rfcnnnn txt or rfc rfcnnnn ps where nnnn refers to the number of the rfc login with ftp username anonymous and password guest the nic also provides an automatic mail service for those sites which cannot use ftp address the request to service nic ddn mil and in the subject field of the message indicate the rfc number as in subject rfc nnnn or subject rfc nnnn ps for postscript rfcs rfcs can also be obtained via ftp from nis nsf net using ftp login with username anonymous and password guest then connect to the rfc directory cd rfc the file name is of the form rfcnnnn txt where nnnn refers to the number of the rfc the nis also provides an automatic mail service for those sites which cannot use ftp address the request to nis info nis nsf net and leave the subject field of the message blank the first line of the text of the message must be send rfcnnnn txt where nnnn is replaced by the rfc number how can i run an anonymous remailer cypherpunk remailer source is at soda berkeley edu in the pub cypherpunks directory it s written in perl and is relatively easy to install no administrative rights are required karl barrus elee sf menudo uh edu has more information and modifications also most remailer operators mentioned above are amenable to discussing features problems and helping new sites become operational address all points in the section responsibities of anonymous use in this document prior to advertising your service you should be committed to the long term stability of the site and avoid running one surreptitiously what are references on privacy in email brown bob ema urges users to adopt policy on e mail privacy network world oct bairstow jeffrey who reads your electronic mail electronic business june electronic envelopes the uncertainty of keeping e mail private scientific american february ftp eff org pub eff papers email privacy article on the rights of email privacy by ruel t hernandez pub academic law privacy email computer electronic mail and privacy an edited version of a law school seminar paper by ruel t hernadez pub eff papers email privacy biblio compilation of bibliography on e mail and its privacy issues part of the work compiled by stacy b veeder pub eff papers email privacy research the author at digital research tried to formalize their employee privacy policy on e mail the casesightings are divided into two groups us constitutional law and california law pub eff papers company email formulating a company policy on access to and disclosure of electronic mail on company computer systems by david r johnson and john podesta for the electronic mail assocation pub cud alcor information on alcor co an e mail privacy suit pub academic law privacy email email privacy search at berkeley what are some email usenet and internet use policies the computer policy and critiques archive is a collection of the computer policies of many schools and networks run by the computers and academic freedom group on the electronic frontier foundation ftp site the collection also includes critiques of some of the policies if you have gopher the archive is browsable with the command gopher p academic policies gopher eff org the archive is also accessible via anonymous ftp and email ftp to ftp eff org it is in directory pub academic policies for email access send email to archive server eff org include the line send acad freedom policies filenames where filenames is a list of the files that you want file readme is a detailed description of the items in the directory for more information to make contributions or to report typos contact j s greenfield greeny eff org directory widener contains additional policies but not critiques ftp eff org pub cud networks acceptable use policies for various networks including compuserve file compuserve nsfnet file nsfnet with information on research and commercial uses see pub cud networks index pub cud networks email policies from various sysadmins about how they handle the issue of email privacy control and abuse compiled by t hooper hooper ta cc curtin edu au pub cud schools computer use policies of a number of schools see schools index for a full list and description commentary pub academic faq policy best opinions on the best academic computer policies pub academic faq email policies do any universities treat email and computer files as private pub academic faq netnews writing policies on what users write on usenet pub academic faq netnews reading policies on what users read on usenet should my university remove or restrict netnews newsgroups because some people find them offensive pub academic faq policy what guidance is there for creating or evaluating a university s academic computer policy what is the mit crosslink anonymous message tv program crosslink is an anonymous message system run on mit student cable tv it provides an anonymous medium through which mit students can say those things they might otherwise find difficult inconvenient or impossible to say in person it s also a way to send fun or totally random messages to your friends over the air it is similar to the anonymous message pages found in many college newspapers except that it s electronic in nature and it s free messages can be posted to the service via email for more information send email to crosslink athena mit edu miscellaneous what is digital cash with digital encryption and authentication technologies the possibility of a widespread digital cash system may someday be realized a system utilizing codes sent between users and banks similar to today s checking system except entirely digital may be one approach the issues of cryptography privacy and anonymity are closely associated with transfer of cash in an economy see the article in scientific american by david chaum dec an experimental digital bank is run by karl barrus elee sf menudo uh edu based on suggestions by hal finney on the cypherpunks mailing list to use the server send mail to elee h rosebud ee uh edu message with the following text command help user host where user host is your email address what is a hacker or cracker these terms arouse strong feelings by many on their meaning especially on the internet in the general news media in the past a person who uses computers and networks to malicious ends such as breaking into systems has been referred to as a hacker but most internet users prefer the term cracker for this instead a hacker is perceived as a benign but intensely ambitious curious and driven computer user who explores obscure areas of a system for example something of a proud electronic pioneer and patriot this is the sense intended in this document see also the hacker s dictionary and the faq alt security faq what is a cypherpunk from the charter of the cypherpunk mailing list cypherpunks assume privacy is a good thing and wish there were more of it cypherpunks acknowledge that those who want privacy must create it for themselves and not expect governments corporations or other large faceless organizations to grant them privacy out of beneficence cypherpunks know that people have been creating their own privacy for centuries with whispers envelopes closed doors and couriers cypherpunks do not seek to prevent other people from speaking about their experiences or their opinions see information on the cypherpunk mailing list below see also the cryptoanarchist manifesto and the cryptography glossary in soda berkeley edu pub cypherpunks what is steganography and anonymous pools closely associated with encryption is steganography or the techniques for not only pursuing private encrypted communication but concealing the very existence of the communication itself many new possibilities in this area are introduced with the proliferation of computer technology for example it is possible to encode messages in the least significant bits of images typically the most noisy in addition when such an item is posted in a public place such as a newsgroup virtually untraceable communication can take place between sender and receiver for steganographic communications in the electronic realm one another possibility is setting up a mailing list where individual messages get broadcast to the entire list and individual users decode particular messages with their unique key an anonymous pool has been set up by miron cuperman miron extropia wimsey com for experiments send email to pool request extropia wimsey com with one of the following commands in the subject line subscribe unsubscribe help what is security through obscurity security through obscurity refers to the attempt to gain protection from system weaknesses by hiding sensitive information or programs relating to them for example a company may not make public information on its software s encryption techniques to evade attacks based on knowledge of it another example would be concealing data on the existence of security holes or bugs in operating systems or some reliance may be made on the fact that some standard or mechanism with potential problems is serious because they are not widely known or not widely used this argument is occasionally applied to mechanisms for email and usenet posting forgery security through obscurity is regarded as a very feeble technique at best and inappropriate and ineffective at worst also called the head in the sand approach see the faq for alt security some remarks of john perry barlow cofounder of the electronic frontier foundation directed to nsa agents at the first international symposium on national security national competitiveness held in mclean virginia dec digitized information is very hard to stamp classified or keep contained this stuff is incredibly leaky and volatile it s almost a life form in its ability to self propagate if something hits the net and it s something which people on there find interesting it will spread like a virus of the mind i believe you must simply accept the idea that we are moving into an environment where any information which is at all interesting to people is going to get out and there will be very little that you can do about it this is not a bad thing in my view but you may differ what are identity daemons rfc describes a protocol standard that allows unix programs to query a remote user s login name after connection to a local communication socket a connection of this type is established during ftp and telnet sessions for example the standard is not widely supported perhaps of internet sites currently implement it but the number is increasing the mechanism is detrimental to anonymity regular users cannot disable it but system adminstrators can circumvent it this standard may represent a trend toward greater authentication mechanisms what new standards are needed to guard electronic privacy remailing posting stable secure protected officially sanctioned and permitted publicly and privately operated anonymous servers and hubs official standards for encryption and anonymity in mail and usenet postings truly anonymous protocols with source and destination information obscured or absent and hidden routing mechanisms chaining encrypted addresses etc standards for anonymous email addressing embedding files and remailer site chaining general recognition of anonymity cryptography and related privacy shields as legitimate useful desirable and crucial by the general public and their governments widespread use and implementation of these technologies by systems designers into hardware software and standards implemented securely seamlessly and transparently general shift of use dependence and reliance to means other than wiretapping and electronic surveillance by law enforcement agencies publicity retraction and dissolution of laws and government agencies opposed to privacy replaced by structures dedicated to strengthening and protecting it issues what is the electronic frontier foundation eff from ftp eff org pub eff mission statement a new world is arising in the vast web of digital electronic media which connect us computer based communication media like electronic mail and computer conferencing are becoming the basis of new forms of community these communities without a single fixed geographical location comprise the first settlements on an electronic frontier while well established legal principles and cultural norms give structure and coherence to uses of conventional media like newspapers books and telephones the new digital media do not so easily fit into existing frameworks conflicts come about as the law struggles to define its application in a context where fundamental notions of speech property and place take profoundly new forms people sense both the promise and the threat inherent in new computer and communications technologies even as they struggle to master or simply cope with them in the workplace and the home the electronic frontier foundation has been established to help civilize the electronic frontier to make it truly useful and beneficial not just to a technical elite but to everyone and to do this in a way which is in keeping with our society s highest traditions of the free and open flow of information and communication eff was started by the multimillionaire mitchell kapor founder of lotus software and john barlow lyricist for the grateful dead rock band a highly publicized endeavor of the organization involved the legal defense of steve jackson games after an fbi raid and an accompanying civil suit see section on steve jackson games the foundation publishes eff news effector online electronically send requests to effnews request eff org in a letter to mitchell kapor from the chairman of the subcommittee with primary jurisdiction over telecommunications policy dated november representative edward j markey complemented mitchell kapor on his insights on the development of a national public information infrastructure which were appreciated greatly by myself and the members of the subcommittee complete text in ftp eff com pub pub infra we need to pursue policies that encourage the bell companies to work with other sectors of the communications industry to create a consumer oriented public information network please let me or my staff know what policies you and others in the computer industry believe would best serve the public interest in creating a reasonably priced widely available network in which competition is open and innovation rewarded i also want to learn what lessons from the computer industry over the past ten to fifteen years should apply to the current debate on structuring the information and communications networks of the future i ask your help in gaining input from the computer industry so that the subcommittee can shape policies that will bring this spirit of innovation and entrepreneurship to the information services industry ftp eff org pub eff about eff a file of basic information about eff including goals mission achievements and current projects contains a membership form pub eff mission statement eff mission statement pub eff historical founding announcement eff founding press release pub eff historical eff history john perry barlow s not terribly brief history of the eff july how eff was conceived and founded major legal cases and the organizational directions pub eff historical legal case summary eff legal case summary who are computer professionals for social responsibility cpsr the computer professionals for social responsibility have been working to protect and promote electronic civil liberties issues since the group has three offices palo alto cambridge washington dc and chapters it is involved in litigation against the fbi the nsa nist the secret service and other other u s government agencies to declassify and provide documentation on issues such as operation sundevil the fbi wiretap proposal nsa s interference in crypography the breakup of the raid in arlington va in nov members speak frequently in front on congress state legislators and public utility commissions to testify on privacy information policy computer security and caller identification cpsr has created an extensive internet privacy library available via ftp gopher wais and email at cpsr org currently comprising the largest collection of privacy documents on the internet for more information anonymous ftp cpsr org cpsr thanks to dave banisar banisar washofc cpsr org for contributions here what was operation sundevil and the steve jackson game case in the early s a fear spread among u s law enforcement agencies on the illicit activities of hackers and phreakers involved in such activities as credit card fraud and long distance call thievery see ftp eff org pub sjg general information effector operation sundevil the phoenix inspired crackdown of may concentrated on telephone code fraud and credit card abuse and followed this seizure plan with some success bulletin board systems went down all over america terrifying the underground and swiftly depriving them of at least some of their criminal instruments it also saddled analysts with some floppy disks and confronted harried justice department prosecutors with the daunting challenge of a gigantic nationwide hacker show trial involving highly technical issues in dozens of jurisdictions massive show trials never materialized although isolated instances of prosecution were pursued the movement reached a crescendo in texas with the highly publicized case of illegal search and seizure involving the steve jackson games company of austin texas on march from the column gurps labour lost by bruce sterling bruces well sf ca us in fantasy and science fiction magazine in an early morning raid with an unlawful and unconstitutional warrant agents of the secret service conducted a search of the sjg office when they left they took a manuscript being prepared for publication private electronic mail and several computers including the hardware and software of the sjg computer bulletin board system yet jackson and his business were not only innocent of any crime but never suspects in the first place the raid had been staged on the unfounded suspicion that somewhere in jackson s office there might be a document compromising the security of the telephone system fbi agents involved in the seizure were named in a civil suit filed on behalf of steve jackson games by the electronic frontier foundation see information on eff below from an article by joe abernathy in the houston chronicle feb austin an electronic civil rights case against the secret service closed thursday with a clear statement by federal district judge sam sparks that the service failed to conduct a proper investigation in a notorious computer crime crackdown and went too far in retaining custody of seized equipment secret service special agent timothy foley of chicago who was in charge of three austin computer search and seizures on march that led to the lawsuit stoically endured spark s rebuke over the service s poor investigation and abusive computer seizure policies while the service has seized dozens of computers since the crackdown began in this is the first case to challenge the practice sparks grew visibly angry when it was established that the austin science fiction magazine and game book publisher was never suspected of a crime and that agents did not do even marginal research to establish a criminal connection between the firm and the suspected illegal activities of an employee or to determine that the company was a publisher indeed agents testified that they were not even trained in the privacy protection act at the special secret service school on computer crime how long would it have taken you mr foley to find out what steve jackson games did what it was asked sparks an hour was there any reason why on march you could not return to steve jackson games a copy in floppy disk form of everything taken did you read the article in business week magazine where it had a picture of steve jackson a law abiding tax paying citizen saying he was a computer crime suspect did it ever occur to you mr foley that seizing this material could harm steve jackson economically foley replied no sir but the judge offered his own answer you actually did you just had no idea anybody would actually go out and hire a lawyer and sue you more than has been spent by the electronic frontier foundation in bringing the case to trial the eff was founded by mitchell kapor amid a civil liberties movement sparked in large part by the secret service computer crime crackdown ftp eff org pub cud papers sundevil a collection of information on operation sundevil by the epic nonprofit publishing project everything you wanted to know but could never find pub cud papers sj resp steve jackson s response to the charges against him what is integrated services digital network isdn isdn is a high speed data communications standard that utilizes existing copper telephone lines and is a possible inexpensive and intermediate alternative to laying fiber optic cable for phone networks the speeds involved may be sufficient for audio and video transmission applications g v der leun in the file ftp eff org pub pub infra telecommunications in the united states is at a crossroads with the regional bell operating companies now free to provide content the shape of the information networking is about to be irrevocably altered but will that network be the open accessible affordable network that the american public needs you can help decide this question the electronic frontier foundation recently presented a plan to congress calling for the immediate deployment of a national network based on existing isdn technology accessible to anyone with a telephone connection and priced like local voice service we believe deployment of such a platform will spur the development of innovative new information services and maximize freedom competitiveness and civil liberties throughout the nation the eff is testifying before congress and the fcc making presentations to public utility commisions from massachusetts to california and meeting with representatives from telephone companies publishers consumer advocates and other stakeholders in the telecommunications policy debate the eff believes that participants on the internet as pioneers on the electronic frontier need to have their voices heard at this critical moment to automatically receive a description of the platform and details send mail to archive server eff org with the following line send documents open platform overview or send mail to eff eff org see also the introduction to the eff open platform proposal in ftp eff org pub pub infra references digital data on demand macworld page kbps vs isdn services and products see comments by j powers in ftp eff org pub pub infra telephone service that rings of the future by joshua quittner newsday tue jan implications of isdn for the masses written in popular science style john perry barlow cofounder eff regional telephone companies ohio bell isdn as technological rorschach test anecdotes about mcdonald s barbara bush teleconferencing see complete text in ftp eff org pub pub infra ftp eff org pub pub infra files through containing email from the eff public infrastructure group organized by month opinions and facts on the pros and cons of isdn integrated services digital network uses of isdn phone video audio etc japanese model alternatives to isdn hdsl adsl fiber optics technical specifications of isdn implementation details cost issues political obstacles rboc regional bell operating companies or baby bells e g net new england telephone influencing development of future networks e g isdn and nren national research and education network encouraging competition cable tv systems press releases and news articles letter from rep e j markey to m kapor what is the national research and education network nren the nation research and education network was introduced in legislation cosponsored by sen a gore to promote high speed data network infrastructure augmenting the internet with up to times faster transmission rates the bill passed the house on november the senate on november and was signed by the president on december ftp eff org pub eff legislation nren bill text the complete text of the house senate compromise version of s the high performance computing act pub internet info gore bill nd congress st session text of high performance computing bill cosponsored by sen a gore pub eff legislation gore infrastructure bill the text of s the information infrastructure and technology act of introduced by senator gore to expand federal efforts to develop technologies for applications of high performance computing and high speed networking and to provide for a coordinated federal program to accelerate development and deployment of an advanced information infrastructure u s said to play favorites in promoting nationwide computer network by john markoff n y times dec president bush s legislation for natiowide computer data superhighway ibm mci venture as monopoly destructive to fair competition and innovation national science foundation nsfnet complete text in pub pub infra commentary pub academic statements nren privacy cpsr proposed privacy guidelines for the nren statement of marc rotenberg washington director computer professionals for social responsibility cpsr pub internet info cisler nren the national research and education network two meetings steve cisler senior scientist apple computer library december summary of meetings exploring educational issues of nren by diverse members of academia and industry pub internet info privatized nren feb essay by m kapor advocating advantages of a private national public network and specific recommendations for open nren policies encouraging competition pub eff papers netproposition an fyi about the proposed nren setup what is the fbi s proposed digital telephony act providers of electronic communication services and private branch exchange operators shall provide within the united states capability and capacity for the government to intercept wire and electronic communications when authorized by law from bbs legislative watch fbis wiretapping proposal thwarted by s steele in boardwatch magazine feb p in a move that worried privacy experts software manufacturers and telephone companies the fbi proposed legislation to amend the communications act of to make it easier for the bureau to perform electronic wiretapping the proposed legislation entitled digital telephony would have required communications service providers and hardware manufacturers to make their systems tappable by providing back doors through which law enforcement officers could intercept communications furthermore this capability would have been provided undetectably while the communications was in progress exclusive of any communications between other parties regardless of the mobility of the target of the fbi s investigation and without degradation of service under the proposal the department of justice doj can keep communications products off the market if it determines that these products do not meet the doj s own guidelines this could result in increased costs and reduced competitiveness for service providers and equipment manufacturers since they will be unlikely to add any features that may result in a doj rejection of their entire product the fbi proposal suggests that the cost of this wiretapping service to the bureau would have to be borne by the service provider itself the electronic frontier foundation organized a broad coalition of public interest and industry groups from computer professionals for social responsibilty cpsr and the aclu to at t and sun microsystems to oppose the legislation a white paper produced by the eff and ratified by the coalition entitled an analysis of the fbi digital telephony proposal was widely distributed throughout the congress the justice department lobbied hard in the final days to get congress to take up the bill before congress adjourned but the bill never found a congressional sponsor and was therefore never officially introduced the fbi may reintroduce digital telephony when the rd congress convenes in january ftp eff org pub eff legislation fbi wiretap bill pub eff legislation new fbi wiretap bill a bill to ensure the continuing access of law enforcement to the content of wire and electronic communications when authorized by law and for other purposes version of the bill after fbi changes in response to public response pub cud law hr house of rep bill telecommunications law commentary pub eff papers eff fbi analysis the eff sponsored analysis of the fbi s digital telephony proposal pub eff papers ecpa layman the electronic communications privacy act of a layman s view pub eff papers nightline wire transcript of abc s nightline of may on the fbi privacy and proposed wire tapping legislation featured are marc rotenberg of the cpsr and william sessions director of the fbi pub eff papers edwards letter a letter from the director of the secret service to us rep don edwards d california in response to questions raised by edwards subcommittee this copy came from computer professionals for social responsibility in washington d c pub eff papers fbi systems a description of how information is stored on the fbi s computer systems what other u s legislation is related to privacy ftp eff org pub cud law state state computer crime laws al ak az ca co ct de fl ga hi ia id il in md mn nc nj nm ny or tx vt va wa wi wv pub cud law country current computer crime laws for the united states federal code canada ghana and great britain pub cud law bill s senate bill addressing registration of encryption keys with the government pub cud law improve improvement of information access bill pub cud law monitoring senate bill concerning abuses of electronic monitoring in the workplace pub cud law us e privacy title relating to computer crime email privacy pub academic law privacy electronic bill the text of simon s electronic privacy bill s to prevent potential abuses of electronic monitoring in the workplace what are references on rights in cyberspace ftp eff org pub cud papers const in cyberspace laurence tribe s keynote address at the first conference on computers freedom privacy the constitution in cyberspace pub cud papers denning paper presented to th nat l comp security conf concerning hackers who break into computer systems by dorothy e denning pub cud papers privacy computer privacy vs first and fourth amendment rights by michael s borella pub cud papers rights of expr rights of expression in cyberspace by r e baird pub academic eff rights bill of rights meaning in the electronic frontier what is the computers and academic freedom caf archive the caf archive is an electronic library of information about computers and academic freedom run by the computers and academic freedom group on the electronic frontier foundation ftp site if you have gopher the archive is browsable with the command gopher p academic gopher eff org it is available via anonymous ftp to ftp eff org in directory pub academic it is also available via email for information on email access send email to archive server eff org in the body of your note include the lines help and index for more information to make contributions or to report typos contact j s greenfield greeny eff org ftp eff org pub academic statements caf statement codifies the application of academic freedom to academic computers reflecting seven months of on line discussion about computers and academic freedom covers free expression due process privacy and user participation pub academic books directory of book references related to computers and academic freedom or mentioned in the caf discussion the file books readme is a bibliography pub academic faq archive list of files available on the computers and academic freedom archive pub academic news directory of all issues of the computers and academic freedom news a full list of abstracts is available in file abstracts the special best of the month issues are named with their month for example june footnotes what is the background behind the internet the article internet in fantasy and science fiction by bruce sterling bruces well sf ca us contains general and nontechnical introductory notes on origins of the internet including the role of the rand corporation the goal of network resilience in face of nuclear attack mit ucla arpanet tcp ip nsf nren etc arpanet itself formally expired in a happy victim of its own overwhelming success its users scarcely noticed for arpanet s functions not only continued but steadily improved the use of tcp ip standards for computer networking is now global in a mere twenty one years ago there were only four nodes in the arpanet network today there are tens of thousands of nodes in the internet scattered over forty two countries with more coming on line every day three million possibly four million people use this gigantic mother of all computer networks the internet is especially popular among scientists and is probably the most important scientific instrument of the late twentieth century the powerful sophisticated access that it provides to specialized data and personal communication has sped up the pace of scientific research enormously the internet s pace of growth in the early s is spectacular almost ferocious it is spreading faster than cellular phones faster than fax machines last year the internet was growing at a rate of twenty percent a month the number of host machines with direct connection to tcp ip has been doubling every year since the internet is moving out of its original base in military and research institutions into elementary and high schools as well as into public libraries and the commercial sector references bowers k t laquey j reynolds k roubicek m stahl and a yuan where to start a bibliography of general internetworking information rfc cnri u texas isi bbn sri mitre august the whole internet catalog user s guide by ed krol o reilly and associates inc a clear non jargonized introduction to the intimidating business of network literacy written in humorous style krol e the hitchhikers guide to the internet rfc university of illinois urbana september the user s directory to computer networks by tracy laquey the matrix computer networks and conferencing systems worldwide by john quarterman digital press bedford ma massive and highly technical compendium detailing the mind boggling scope and complexity of global internetworks a directory of electronic mail addressing and networks by donnalyn frey and rick adams the internet companion by tracy laquey with jeanne c ryer addison wesley evangelical etiquette guide to the internet featuring anecdotal tales of life changing internet experiences foreword by senator al gore zen and the art of the internet a beginner s guide by brendan p kehoe prentice hall brief but useful internet guide with plenty of good advice on useful databases see also ftp eff com pub internet info thanks to bruce sterling bruces well sf ca us for contributions here general cunningham scott and alan l porter communication networks a dozen ways they ll change our lives the futurist january february brian kahin ed building information infrastructure new york mcgraw hill isbn x essays on information infrastructure policy and design issues research and nren future visions information markets see table of contents in ftp eff org pub pub infra shapard jeffrey observations on cross cultural electronic networking whole earth review winter varley pamela electronic democracy technology review november december how internet anarchy like the english language according to bruce sterling bruces well sf ca us the internet s anarchy may seem strange or even unnatural but it makes a certain deep and basic sense it s rather like the anarchy of the english language nobody rents english and nobody owns english as an english speaking person it s up to you to learn how to speak english properly and make whatever use you please of it though the government provides certain subsidies to help you learn to read and write a bit otherwise everybody just sort of pitches in and somehow the thing evolves on its own and somehow turns out workable and interesting fascinating even though a lot of people earn their living from using and exploiting and teaching english english as an institution is public property a public good much the same goes for the internet would english be improved if the the english language inc had a board of directors and a chief executive officer or a president and a congress there d probably be a lot fewer new words in english and a lot fewer new ideas most wanted list hopefully you have benefitted from this creation compilation and condensation of information from various sources regarding privacy identity and anonymity on the internet the author is committed to keeping this up to date and strengthening it but this can only be effective with your feedback in particular the following items are sought short summaries of rfc documents and other references listed esp cpsr files more data on the specific uses and penetration of rfc internet traffic statistics how much is email how much usenet what are the costs involved famous or obscure examples of compromised privacy on the internet ftp site for the code not the code to turn the plan file into a named pipe for sensing reacting to remote fingers knowledge on the promiscuous mode of receipt or transmission on network cards details on the infamous experiment where a scientist resubmitted previously accepted papers to a prominent journal with new and unknown authors that were subsequently rejected x windows eff cpsr faqhood in news answers commerical use of this document is negotiable and is a way for the author to recoup from a significant time investment email feedback to ld longs lance colostate edu please note where you saw this which newsgroup etc change history v current cpsr pointer new unix mode examples digital telephony act steve jackson incident additions reorganization to anonymity section part note v post to sci crypt alt privacy news answers alt answers sci answers was cancelled by j kamens because of incorrect subject line v major revisions new section for x windows some email privacy items reorganized to network security section new sections for email liability issues anonymity history and responsibilities split into three files many new sources added particularly from eff and caf in new issues part commentary from news admin policy day automated posting starts v more newsgroups faqs added more most wanted posted to news answers future monthly posting to sci crypt alt privacy v formatted to columns for quoting etc miscellaneous resources sections added with cypherpunk servers and use warnings more unix examples ls and chmod posted to alt privacy comp society privacy v identity and privacy sections added anonymity expanded remailer addresses removed due to lack of information and instability posted to sci crypt v originally posted to the cypherpunks mailing list on as a call to organize a list of anonymous servers email ld longs lance colostate edu for earlier versions see also part previous file what is identity on the internet why is identity un important on the internet how does my email address not identify me and my background how can i find out more about somebody from their email address why is identification un stable on the internet what is the future of identification on the internet what is privacy on the internet why is privacy un important on the internet how in secure are internet networks how in secure is my account how in secure are my files and directories how in secure is x windows how in secure is my email how am i not liable for my email and postings how do i provide more less information to others on my identity who is my sysadmin what does s he know about me why is privacy un stable on the internet what is the future of privacy on the internet what is anonymity on the internet why is anonymity un important on the internet how can anonymity be protected on the internet what is anonymous mail what is anonymous posting why is anonymity un stable on the internet what is the future of anonymity on the internet part next file what are some known anonymous remailing and posting sites what are the responsibilities associated with anonymity how do i kill anonymous postings what is the history behind anonymous posting servers what is the value of anonymity should anonymous posting to all groups be allowed what should system operators do with anonymous postings what is going on with anon penet fi maintained by j helsingius this is part of the privacy anonymity faq obtained via anonymous ftp to pit manager mit edu pub usenet news answers net privacy or newsgroups news answers sci answers alt answers every days written by l detweiler ld longs lance colostate edu all rights reserved
sci.crypt	privacy anonymity on the internet faq of archive name net privacy part last modified version notes on anonymity on the internet compiled by l detweiler ld longs lance colostate edu what are some known anonymous remailing and posting sites what are the responsibilities associated with anonymity how do i kill anonymous postings what is the history behind anonymous posting servers what is the value of anonymity should anonymous posting to all groups be allowed what should system operators do with anonymous postings what is going on with anon penet fi maintained by j helsingius what are some known anonymous remailing and posting sites currently the most stable of anonymous remailing and posting sites is anon penet fi operated by julf penet fi for several months who has system adminstrator privileges and owns the equipment including anonymized mail usenet posting and return addresses no encryption send mail to help penet fi for information hal finney has contributed an instruction manual for the cypherpunk remailers on the ftp site soda berkeley edu pub cypherpunks hal s instructions see also scripts tar z unix scripts to aid remailer use and anonmail arj msdos batch files to aid remailer use ebrandt jarthur claremont edu anonymized mail request information from above address elee h rosebud ee uh edu experimental anonymous remailer run karl barrus elee sf menudo uh edu with encryption to the server request information from that address hal alumni caltech edu experimental remailer with encryption to server and return addresses request information from above address hh soda berkeley edu hh cicada berkeley edu hh pmantis berkeley edu experimental remailer include header request remailing to nowhere bsu cs bsu edu experimental remailer allowing one level of chaining run by chael hall request information from above address phantom mead u washington edu experimental remailer with encryption to server finger site address for information notes cypherpunk remailers tend to be unstable because they are often running without site administrator knowledge liability issues are wholly unresolved so far all encryption is based on public key cryptography and pgp software see the question on cryptography encryption aspects message text destination address replies vary between sites multiple chaining alias unlinking and address encryption are mostly untested problematic or unsupported at this time what are the responsibilities associated with anonymity users use anonymity only if you have to frivolous uses weaken the seriousness and usefulness of the capability for others do not use anonymity to provoke harass or threaten others do not hide behind anonymity to evade established conventions on usenet such as posting binary pictures to regular newsgroups if posting large files be attentive to bandwidth considerations remember simply sending the posting to the service increases network traffic avoid posting anonymously to the regular hierarchy of usenet this is the mostly likely place to alienate readers the alt hierarchy is preferred give as much information as possible in the posting i e references etc remember that content is the only means for readers to judge the truth of the message and that any inaccuracies will tend to discredit the entire message and even future ones under the same handle be careful not to include information that will reveal your identity or enable someone to deduce it test the system by sending anonymized mail to yourself be aware of the policies of the anonymous site and respect them be prepared to forfeit your anonymity if you abuse the privilege be considerate and respectful of other s objections to anonymity hit and run anonymity should be used with utmost reservation use services that provide anonymous return addresses instead be courteous to the system operator who may have invested large amounts of time be personally risking his account or dedicating his hardware all for your convenience operators document thoroughly acceptable and unacceptable uses in an introductory file that is sent to new users have a coherent and consistent policy and stick to it state clearly what logging and monitoring is occurring describe your background interest and security measures will the general approach be totalitarian or lassaiz faire formulate a plan for problematic ethical situations and anticipate potentially intense moral quandaries and dilemmas what if a user is blackmailing someone through your service what if a user posts suicidal messages through your service remember your users trust you to protect them in the site introductory note give clear examples of situations where you will take action and what these actions will be e g warn the user limit anonymity to email or posting only revoke the account out the user contact local administrator etc describe exactly the limitations of the software and hardware address the bandwidth limitations of your site report candidly and thoroughly all bugs that have occurred work closely with users to isolate and fix bugs address all bugs noted below under in stability of anonymity document the stability of the site how long has it been running what compromises have occured why are you running it what is your commitment to it include a disclaimer in outgoing mail and messages include an address for complaints ideally appended to every outgoing item consult a lawyer about your liability be committed to the long term stability of the site be prepared to deal with complaints and hate mail addressed to you if you do not own the hardware the system runs on or are not the system adminstrator consult those who do and are be considerate of providing anonymity to various groups if possible query group readers keep a uniformity and simplicity of style in outgoing message format that can be screened effectively by kill files ensure the key text anon is somewhere in every header take precautions to ensure the security of the server from physical and network based attacks and infiltrations readers do not complain attack or discredit a poster for the sole reason that he is posting anonymously make blanket condemnations that equate anonymity with cowardice and criminality or assail anonymous traffic in general for mostly neutral reasons e g its volume is heavy or increasing react to the anonymous information unemotionally abusive posters will be encouraged further if they get irrationally irate responses sometimes the most effective response is silence notify operators if very severe abuses occur such as piracy harassment extortion etc do not complain about postings being inappropriate because they offend you personally use kill files to screen anonymous postings if you object to the idea of anonymity itself avoid the temptation to proclaim that all anonymous postings should be barred from particular groups because no possible or conceivable need exists references see e g ftp eff org pub academic anonymity this article is an excerpt from an issue of fidonews on individual privacy and the use of handles it accepts the need of a system operator to know the name of a user but suggests that the use of a handle is analogous to a request to withhold the name in a letter to the editor the article concludes with a set of guidelines for preserving the right to be anonymous how do i kill anonymous postings james thomas green jgreen zeus calpoly edu try putting this in your kill file anon h j anonymous h j this will search the headers of the messages and kill any that contain anon or anonymous in them not perfect and won t kill followups note that anonymous server operators have the capability to mask anonymous postings under which the above method will not work so far this practice is not widespread but it may become more common as a countermeasure to widespread anonymous filtering what is the history behind anonymous posting servers originally anonymous posting services were introduced for individual particularly volatile newsgroups where anonymity is almost the preferred method of communication such as talk abortion and alt sex bondage one of the first was one by dave mack started in for alt sex bondage another early one was wizvax methuen ma us run by stephanie gilgut gilgut enterprises but was disbanded due to lack of funds the system provided anonymous return addresses n kbt rain com john opalko took up the functions of this server including reinstating the anonymous alias file the group alt personals has been chewing through servers like there s no tomorrow spurred by the disappearance of wizvax and interested in researching the idea karl kleinpaste karl kleinpaste godiva nectar cs cmu edu developed his own system from scratch in six hours by this time the idea of extending the server to new more mainstream groups was starting to emerge and he explored the possibility partly at the specific request by multiple users for anonymity in other groups the intended advantage of my system was specifically to allow multiple group support with a single anon identifier across all this was arguably the single biggest deficiency of previous anon systems k kleinpaste posted a message on rec nude asking users whether an anonymous service would be welcome there and judged a consensus against it k kleinpaste introduced what he calls a fire extinguisher to squelch or plonk abusive users in response to complaints and used this in three cases nevertheless after a few months of intense traffic he was eventually overwhelmed by the abuses of his server even as restricted as it was my system was subjected to abuses to the point where it was ordered dismantled by the facilities staff here such abuses started right after it was created in nov johan helsingius julf penet fi set up the most controversial anonymous site to date anon penet fi is based on scripts and c code written by k kleinpaste and supports anonymized mail posting and return addresses he initially wanted to confine the service to scandinavian users but expanded it to worldwide accessability in response to lots of international requests j helsingius policy of allowing anonymous posting to every usenet newsgroup has been met with strong and serious ideological opposition e g by news adminstrators in news admin policy because of the relative newness and recent emergence of the medium abuses by anonymous posters tend to have higher visibility than routine abuses his total commitment to preservation of anonymity is also controversial for example in a highly controversial and publicized case in feb an anonymous user posted a supposed transcript of desperate crew dialogue during the challenger shuttle disaster via anon penet fi to sci astro despite that the transcript had been posted in the same place up to a year earlier then non anonymously and actually originated not with the poster but a new york news tabloid subsequent responses consisted largely of vociferous outrage at the poster s use of anonymity reverberating through many newsgroups the original poster using the same anonymous handle later conceded that the story seemed likely to have been fabricated suggesting the plausible possibility that the original intent was not to provoke outrage but gauge reactions on the authenticity of the story albeit crudely free of personal risk from perceived association with the item the ensuing commotion generated queries for the original article by late entering readers the anonymous user later posted deliberately offensive comments at his detractors despite piercingly irate and outraged complaints and even the vocal opposition and verbal abuse of k kleinpaste and eminent news operators j helsingius has largely avoided use of the fire extingisher and the group bouncer mechanisms that limit the scope of the service as of march the anon penet fi site is best described as inundated it has registered over users in its initial three months of operation forwards messages a day and approximately of all usenet postings are anonymized through the site the immense popularity is probably largely due to the capability for global anonymity which has allowed users to find creative uses in diverse areas not previously envisioned johan helsingius has been subject to extraordinary pressure to dismantle his server in feb at one point k kleinpaste threatened publicly to organize a sort of vigilante group of irate news operators to send out revocation commands on all messages originating from the site j helsingius has also alluded to threats of flooding the server the server has crashed several times at least once due to a saturation mailbombing through it by an anonymous user mr helsingius reports spending up to hours per day answering email requests alone associated with the service s administration in response to the serious threats he disabled global group access temporarily for one week and encouraged his users to defend the service publicly based on fast moving dialogue and creative suggestions by cypherpunks j helsingius has identified many security weaknesses and valuable new features for the service and is currently in the process of code development and testing he is planning on upgrading the ibm compatible machine to a soon to handle the voluminous load and is considering integrating a new system with very sophisticated functionality including multiple email aliases alias allocation control public key encryption etc a very sophisticated anonymous posting system was set up in dec by d clunie dclunie pax tpa com au that used cryptography in both directions to from the server for the highest degree of confidentiality seen so far however it was running on a public access account and he had to shut it down after only several weeks upon receiving requests and conditions apparently ultimately originating from nsf representatives d clunie has released the software to the public domain recently the idea of a newsgroup devoted to whistleblowing on government abuses has received wide and focused attention and group formation is currently underway in the basic scenario the group would allow people to post pseudonymously using remailers and even establish reputations based on their authentifiable digital signatures the traffic may eventually reach reporters in the mainstream news media deltorto aol com has volunteered to attack multiple aspects of this project including distributing easy to read documentation on posting anonymization and encryption see also sections on views on anonymous posting below and what is going on with anon penet fi in this document thanks to carl kleinpaste karl kleinpaste godiva nectar cs cmu edu david clunie dclunie pax tpa com au and johan helsingius julf penet fi for contributions here what is the value of anonymity kondared purccvm bitnet i think anonymous posts do help in focusing our attention on the content of one s message sure lot of anonymous posts are abusive or frivolous but in most cases these are by users who find the anon facility novel once the novelty wears off they are stopping their pranks morgan engr uky edu wes morgan i don t mind seeing the miscellaneous hatred prejudice racism those things are part of our nature however the notion of providing anonymity s shield for these ideas repulses me if they have such strong feelings why can t they put their name s on their postings quite frankly i loathe communication with people who refuse to use their names dclunie pax tpa com au david clunie many seem to question the value of anonymity but who are they to say what risks another individual should take there is no question that in this rather conservative society that we live in holding certain views making certain statements adopting a certain lifestyle are likely to result in public censure ridicule loss of status employment or even legal action given the heterogeneity of the legal jurisdictions from where the many contributors to usenet post who knows what is legal and what is not some say that anonymous posters are cowards and should stand up and be counted perhaps that is one point of view but what right do these detractors have to exercise such censorship from doug cc ysu edu doug sewell why is it censorship to not expect someone to speak for themselves without the cloak of anonymity this is at best a lame argument you tell me why what you have to say requires anonymity and you tell me why the wishes of a majority of non anonymous users of a newsgroup should be disregarded when they don t want anonymous posts anonymous users have less rights than any others they are not legitimate usenet participants i would not honor rfds cfvs control messages or votes from one brad clarinet com brad templeton i can think of no disadvantage caused by anon posting sites that doesn t already exist other than the fact that they do make more naive net users who don t know how to post anonymously the old way more prone to do it from mandel netcom com tom mandel i cannot speak for others but i regard anonymous postings in a serious discussion as pretty much worthless views that hide behind the veil of anon are hardly worth the trouble of reading n anon penet fi hank pankey since i began posting anonymously to show support for general principles of personal privacy i have been subject to far more abuse and attack than i ever received before people seem to find it easier to flame and insult someone whose name they don t know perhaps it s easier to pretend that there is no person behind the email address who feels the sting of abusive comments anonymity does hinder some methods of controlling other posters actions people who seek such control will naturally oppose it from acearl leo bsuvc bsu edu instead of making this a free er medium by allowing posters to protect themselves with anonymity simply require that all posters be prepared to discuss their sources of information and take the heat for unsubstantiated dribble this seems to be the way things are currently done xtkmg trentu ca kate gregory in misc kids there are three threads going on started by anonymous posters one was about changing jobs so as to work less hours job sharing and so on from a woman who didn t want anyone at her current place of work to know she was thinking of looking for work elsewhere the next was from a woman who is thinking of having a baby sometime soon and doesn t want coworkers friends family etc etc to know all about it but who wants advice the third is about sex after parenthood actually this was started by people posting in the usual way but then it was pointed out that the anonymous posting service might let more people participate misc kids doesn t seem to be suffering any harm from the presence of anonymous posters in fact it seems to have been helped by it hoey zogwarg etl army mil dan hoey while there has never been any real security against anonymous or forged postings on usenet the process has until now been sufficiently inconvenient error prone and undocumented to limit its use by persons who have not learned the culture of the net on the other hand a recent use of the anonymous posting service on sci math seemed seemed to be a student asking help on a homework problem it has now been attributed to a teacher asking for an explanation of a dubious answer in his teaching guide he says his news posting is broken so he is using the anonymous service as a mail to news gateway karl barrus elee sf menudo uh edu some argue that the opinions of the people who hide behind a veil of anonymity are worthless and that people should own up to their thoughts i agree with the latter point in an ideal world we would all be sitting around engaging in socratic dialogues freely exchanging our opinions in an effort to learn but in an ideal world nobody will threaten you for your thoughts or ridicule you but we live in a world where the people who don t agree with you may try to harm you let s face it some people aren t going to agree with your opinion no matter how logically you try to present it or how reasoned out it may be this is sad since it does restrict people from voicing their opinions red redpoll neoucom edu richard e depew the consensus seems to be that a general anonymous posting service such as that at anon penet fi seems sufficiently corrosive of the trust and civility of the net that this particular experiment should be ended perhaps the next time the question comes up we can say we tried it we learned it does more harm than good and we stopped it from c vm urz uni heidelberg de alexander eichener anonymous posting has not created major problems aside from angering irate people like you who would rather ban anonymous pseudonymous posting altogether because real men can stand up for what they said or comparable puerile arguments as others have brought up dave elxr jpl nasa gov dave hayes what a primal example of human nature i have three questions for you folks do people really say different things to each other based upon whether their identity is or isn t known are people really so affected by what other people say that the verbage is labeled abuse most importantly on a forum that prizes itself on the freedom of communication that it enjoys is there really such a thing as freedom of communication from terry geovision gvc com terry mcgonigal sigh just how many anon services are needed will everybody start running one soon what s the purpose who stands to benefit when there are n anon services then n then n out there where has this sudden fasination with anon services come from for better or imho worse it looks like we er gonna get stuck with these things and as much as i don t like the idea of services like this becoming the norm i don t really think there s much to be done since it s obvious that anyone who wants to can set one up with a bit of work karl kleinpaste cs cmu edu karl kleinpaste weak reasoning with freedom comes responsibility dave elxr jpl nasa gov dave hayes responsibility isn t real if it is enforced true responsibilty comes with no coercion should anonymous posting to all groups be allowed morgan engr uky edu wes morgan i will be the first to admit that i hold some controversial opinions indeed i m sure that none of us are completely orthodox in our opinions however i ve received hundreds of anonymous email messages over the last few years fewer than of them were reasonable posts made with good motives it s getting more and more difficult to remember why we need anonymity at all the abusers are once again lousing things up for those who truly need the service or those who would put it to good use i m not suggesting that we should ban anonymous servers as i ve said there are several situations in which anonymity is a good thing tm however the notion that anonymity s shield should be automatically extended to every usenet discussion is ridiculous it opens the door to further abuse twpierce unix amherst edu tim pierce of course how does one determine whether a group requests the service a flat majority of posters voting in favor a positive margin of votes or what no one speaks for a newsgroup i m not convinced by the arguments that an anonymous posting service for all newsgroups is inherently a bad idea simply because it s a diversion from the status quo since the status quo previously permitted anonymous posting to no newsgroups any anonymous posting service would reject the status quo hartman ulogic uucp richard m hartman writes it is facist to suggest that a newsgroup is best able to decide whether it wants to allow anonymous postings instead of having them forced upon them by an service administrator ogil quads uchicago edu brian w ogilvie the service provides a mechanism for forwarding mail to the original poster since most usenet readers don t know john smith from jane doe except by their opinions and their address the effect of having an anonymous posting to which mail replies can be directed is minimal except for those who personally know the poster and the lack of anonymity could be serious any mechanism like this is liable to abuse but the benefits as well as the costs must be weighed limiting the service to alt groups or specific groups would not help those who want advice on sensitive issues in more professional newsgroups from tarl sw stratus com tarl neustaedter an additional point is that some of us find anonimity in technical matters to be profoundly offensive anonimity in different forums has different meanings if i get a phone call from someone who won t identify himself i hang up if i get u s mail with no return address it goes into the garbage unopened if someone accosts me in the street while wearing a mask i back away carefully and expecting violence in a technical discussion anonimity means that the individual isn t willing to associate himself with the matter being discussed which discredits his utterances and makes listening to them a waste of time anonimity leads to fun psych experiments the literature is filled with all the various things that people will do anonymously that they won t otherwise including one notorious study involving torture that would not have passed today s ethical standards fun stuff in any case fine leave us out of it from jbuck forney berkeley edu joe buck you obviously have never submitted an article to a refereed journal where you will receive anonymous reviews through a server the editor that behaves much like the one in finland e g you may reply and the editor will maintain the anonymity your comparison of someone who wants to express him herself on a technical issue anonymously with a person who approaches you on a dark street with a ski mask is just emotionally overwrought nonsense such posters pose no physical threat to you jik mit edu j kamens it seems obvious to me that the default should be not to allow anonymous postings in a newsgroup the usenet has always operated on the principle that the status quo should be kept unless there s a large number of people who want to change it if someone really needs to post a message anonymous in a newsgroup in which this usually isn t done they can usually find someone on the net to do this for them they don t need an automated service to do it and the automated service is by its nature incapable of making the judgment call necessary to decide whether a particular posting really needs to be anonymous from twpierce unix amherst edu tim pierce for any newsgroup you name i bet i can envision a scenario involving a need for secrecy if an accurate content based filter of each anonymous posting could be devised to screen out those that don t require secrecy wonderful but it can t be done from lhp daimi aau dk lasse hiller e petersen if a newsgroup wants to be noise and nuisance free then it should call for moderation this should happen on a per newsgroup basis and not as a general usenet ban on anonymous postings of course one principle of moderation might be to keep out all anonymous postings and could be achieved automatically it would still be moderation personally i would prefer moderation criteria being based on actual content david a clunie dclunie pax tpa com au if a group doesn t want to receive certain posts it should become moderated there are clearly defined mechanisms on non alt groups for this to take place an automated moderator excluding posts from certain eg anonymous sites or individuals could easily be established if anyone wants to take such a draconian approach then they are welcome to do so and good luck to them i doubt if i will be reading their group from dave frackit uucp dave ratcliffe what possible need would someone have for posting anonymously to a sci group sure most adults are willing to post under their own names why would they want to hide behind an anonymous posting service ashamed of what they have to say or just trying to rile people without fear of being identified anonymous posting have their place in certain groups if i or anyone else needs to tell you what those groups are then you ve been on another planet breathing exotic gases for too long from karl kleinpaste cs cmu edu it s bloody fascinating that all the proponents of unimpeded universal anon posting access can t seem to find any middle ground at all why is there such a perception of absolutism where does this instant gratification syndrome come from i want anon access and i want it now who are the control freaks here from acearl leo bsuvc bsu edu remember this is a newsgroup for posters writing about scientific issues anonymous discussion of scientific issues leads to bad science from noring netcom com jon noring though many have personal philosophical arguments against anonymous posters their arguments have not been compelling enough to convince me that omni newsgroup anonymous posting should be banned or severely restricted though i cannot prove it it seems to me that those who do not like anonymous posting in principle do so for reasons that are personal read psychological discomfort rather than for reasons related to maintaining the integrity of usenet remember it is impossible to be able to ascertain all the conceivable and legitimate motives for anonymous posting to newsgroups one normally would not deem to be sensitive in general i fear even letting newsgroup readers vote on either allowing or not allowing anonymous posting since a priori they cannot know all the motives of legitimate posters and i do not believe that any system should ever be instituted that would inhibit the posting of legitimate and informative posts lestat wixer cactus org lyle j mackey writes i personally don t believe that pseudonymous postings are appropriate in a serious discussion area if there is a legitimate reason for concealing the posters identity perhaps but simply because they re not so sure if they want their name attached doesn t qualify as legitimate in my book oh and if you can come up with a legitimate purpose for anonymous postings please enlighten me sderby crick ssctr bcm tmc edu stuart p derby three of our the u s s founding fathers madison hamilton and jay seemed to think anonymous posting was ok the federalist papers were originally printed in new york newspapers with authorship attributed to publius i wonder if you would find their purpose legitimate what should system operators do with anonymous postings from emcguire intellection com ed mcguire i would like to know how to junk all articles posted by the anonymous service currently being discussed ideally i would actually tell my feed site not to feed me articles posted by the anonymous service assuming the c news performance release what is a simple way to accomplish this or where should i look to learn how to do it myself from dclunie pax tpa com au david clunie that s a bit draconian isn t it have your users unanimously decided that they would like you to do this or have you decided for them from emcguire intellection com ed mcguire good question nobody has decided i have no definite plan to do this just wanted the technical data carl kleinpaste karl kleinpaste godiva nectar cs cmu edu were i to be in the position of offering such a service again my promises of protection of anonymity would be limited not on the basis of personal opinion of what gets posted but on the basis of postings which disrupt the smooth operation of the usenet the most obvious and direct recourse would be to out the abusive individual less drastic possibilities exist the software supports a fire extinguisher by which individuals can be prevented from posting john iastate edu john hascall since when is usenet a democracy if someone wants to run an anonymous service that s their business if you want to put that host in your killfile that s your business if a newsadmin wants to blanket drop all postings from that site that s between them and the other people at that site if everyone ignores a service the service effectively doesn t exist from jik athena mit edu jonathan i kamens nntp servers that allow posting from anyone are not a service to the net they do the net a disservice terminal servers have the same problems as open nntp servers they allow people who want to do illegal immoral unethical things on the internet to do so without accountability there are by now public access sites all over this country if not all over the world that allow very inexpensive access to the usenet and the internet there is no reason for nntp servers to allow anyone to post messages through them and there is no reason for terminal servers to allow anyone to connect to them and then make outbound connections through them perhaps when it was harder to get to the internet or the usenet open servers could be justified but not now jbotz mtholyoke edu jurgen botz i think that what these points show clearly is that an anonymous posting service has a great deal of responsibility both towards its clients and towards the net as a whole such a service should imho have a set of well defined rules and a contract that its clients should sign under the terms of which they are assured anonymity from an anon penet fi is the problem that some are used to punishing posters who are upsetting in some vague way by complaining to the usually acquiescent sysadmin or organizations that the poster belongs to that surely is the most gutless approach to solving problems but my experience on the net shows that the same users who vilify anonymous postings are the first to write obsessively detailed grievances to the poster s supervisor when his or her tranquility is disturbed by some intrusive or subversive post or another anonymous postings prevent just this kind of intimidation from gandalf cyberspace org eric schilling the main point i would like to make here is that while we can go through and revise the news sw to reject anon posts to technical newsgroups or some such thing i think the attempt will prove futile each attempt to modify news can result in a changed approach by anon service providers to thwart the change i think this would be pointless from julf penet fi johan helsingius i have tried to stay out of this discussion and see where the discussion leads but now i rally feel like i have to speak up i have repeatedly made clear that i do block users if they continue their abuse after having been warned in many cases the users have taken heed of the warning and stopped and in some cases even apologized in public and when the warning has not had the desired effect i have blocked a number of users i have also blocked access to groups where the readership has taken a vote to ban anonymous postings although i feel changing the newsgroup status to moderated is the only permanent solution for newsgroups that want to formalize discussion red redpoll neoucom edu richard e depew does this mean that you are volunteering to issue a request for discussion to ban anonymous postings or to moderate each of the newsgroups that your server can reach i don t think so but this illustrates the trouble that your server is causing please listen to the consensus of the news administrators in this group any newsgroup should be consulted before letting your server post messages to that group from c vm urz uni heidelberg de alexander eichener there is no pompous consensus of the news administrators here maybe you would like to invent one there is a sizeable number of people who are concerned about the possible and to a minor extent about the actual abuse of the server as it is configured now these concerns are respectable johan is dealing with them there are some few who rage with foam before their mouth and condemn the service altogether and a number who defend it pointing out like kate gregory that even a group like misc kids can benefit from pseudonymous postings from julf penet fi johan helsingius i have answered a lot of personal mail related to server abuse and as a result of that blocked a number of abusive users i have also withdrawn the service from several newsgroups where the users have taken a vote on the issue i have not made any comments on news admin policy partly because the newly implemented password feature as a emergency measure against a security hole has kept me really busy answering user queries the last two weeks and partly because i feel it is not for me to justify the service but for the users the problem with news admin policy is that the readership is rather elective representing people whith a strong interest in centralised control from hartman ulogic uucp richard m hartman this seems to be a rather bigoted attitude i would consider that this group is for anyone who wishes to discuss how the net should be controlled saying that we only have an interest in centralized control is a clear indication of bias you are perfectly welcome to join in the discussions here to promote your views on control jbuck ohm berkeley edu this whole debate is a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing because even if you all decide to ban anonymous posting servers it is not enforceable the only people who conceivably could enforce retrictions are those that control the international links policy changes should be made by cooperation not by attempting to dictate you need to persuade those who run the services to act like this through friendly persuasion not by trying to beat them over the head with a stick especially a stick you don t even have spp zabriskie berkeley edu steve pope i am finding this bias against pseudonymity boring our friend posting through penet has a point the old guard would like to keep their network the way it always has been and this new thing these pseudonymous servers cuts into their turf so they whine and bitch about it and every time there s the slightest abuse such as somebody s sig being too long they try to parlay that into an argument against pseudonymity i ll go on record as saying three cheers for the admins at anon servers like penet pax and n kbt and for all the access service providers who are willing to preserve their clients privacy and a pox on those who try to defeat and restrict pseudonymity mimir stein u washington edu al billings i wouldn t help people get rid of anon postings as a group if you don t like what someone says then you put that anon address in your kill file not all of them of course if and when i get an anon site going i m just going to assign fake names like jsmith instead of anon to avoid most of the hassles you ll never know it is anonymous will you from anne alcor concordia ca anne bennett i must admit to some astonishment at this argument i see the value of anonymous postings under some circumstances yet believe strongly that these should be identified as such so that people who do not wish to read material from people who won t identify themselves don t have to i fail to see what good you would be accomplishing and indeed surmise that you will cause many people inconvenience and annoyance by hiding the anonymity of postings from your anonymous site would you care to justify where the hell you get the gall to try to prevent people from effectively filtering their news as they see fit from dclunie pax tpa com au david clunie i thought i was out of reach here in australia too unfortunately one of the us sites involved in the us aus feed complained to the australian academic reasearch network through whom my site is connected not about anything in particular just the concept of anonymous mail having no redeeming features and consuming a narrow bandwidth link with which i can t argue and that was that stop the service or face disconnection i consider the demise of my service to have been rather unfortunate and i wish the finnish remailer luck it is a pity that there are very few if any similar services provided with in the us i guess that s the benefit of having a constitution that guarantees one freedom of speech and a legal and political system that conspires to subvert it in the name of the public good what is going on with anon penet fi run by j helsingius from karl kleinpaste cs cmu edu funny how beating the rest of the usenet over the head with a stick is ok if it s anon penet fi and universal anon access but somehow people on the other side of the same equation not even arguing to shut it off entirely but rather just to have some control applied to the abuses that manifest themselves aren t allowed to do that i have written to johan several times in the last couple of weeks he used to reply to me quite readily after all i was the source of the software as originally delivered to him he used to be downright prompt about replying to me funny now he s being an impolite bastard who doesn t answer mail at all even when it consists of really very civil queries from julf penet fi johan helsingius in your mail you told me you sent me one or more messages on feb th feb th and th the server was down and the flood of mail that resulted from the server coming up again crashed my own mail host the problem was aggregated by an abusive user sending thousands of messages to another user filling up that users mailbox the bounce messages ended up in my mailbox overflowing my local disk as well i can only suppose that your message got lost in that hassle as i have tried to answer as much as possible of the anon related messages i get from routine mis addessed messages to complaints about the service on the average i spend hours per day answering anon related messages from karl kleinpaste cs cmu edu why is it that everybody else has to put up with the impoliteness and insensitivity of the misuse of anon penet fi whose definitions of polite and sense apply and why why is universal anon access considered to be within the realm of this fuzzy concept of politeness in the first place i think johan has long since crossed the line into being a rude bastard and i told him so in private mail a little while ago at this point i deeply regret a having created an anonymous system supporting newsgroup and b having given the code to johan i didn t copyright it but i thought that some concept of politeness and good sense might follow it to new homes interesting that johan s ideas of politeness and good sense seem to have nearly no interesection with mine i could even cope with universal anon access if johan would be willing to engage in abuse control but somehow that seems to be outside the range of reality from julf penet fi johan helsingius there is no way for me to convey how sad and upset your message made me i do to some extent understand your feelings but it still feels really bad running the server requires getting used to a lot of flames but mindlessly abusive hate mail is so much easier to deal with than something like this as i do respect and value your views and opinions to a high degree no i m not asking for sympathy i just wanted you to know that i am really giving your views quite a lot of weight when i asked for the software i was actually only going to provide the service to scandinavian users but a lot of people requested that i keep the service open to the international community i now realize that i ought to have contacted you at that point to ask how you feel about me using your stuff in such a context again i really want to apologise and i will replace the remaining few pieces of code thet still stem from your system unfortunately there is no way to remove the ideas and structure i got from you again i am really sorry that the results of your work ended up being used in a way that you don t approve of and i will be giving a lot of hard thought to the possibility of shutting down the server alltogether from karl kleinpaste cs cmu edu i think i m feeling especially rude and impolite if it s good for johan it s good for me after all he didn t ask the greater usenet whether universal anon access was a good idea he just did it yes i m a seriously rude pain in the ass now and i think i ll arm the usenet death penalty slightly modified not for strategic whole site attack but tactical assault just an anon penet fi destruction only outside alt too let s say to parrot this line people have been doing things like the udp that is cancelling others postings for years no one could ever stop them and it s only politeness and good sense that has prevented them up to now in fact i have people who have expressed privately the desire and ability to arm the udp ps no in fact there are not newsadmins ready to arm the udp it would be amusing to know how many people gulped hard when they read that though i don t see it as any different from johan s configuration pps now that i ve calmed some fears by the above ps there are newsadmins ready to arm the udp they ve asked for my code i haven t sent it yet only one site would be necessary to bring anon penet fi to a screeching halt anyone can implement the udp on their own if they care to politeness and good sense prevents them from doing so i wonder how long before one form of impoliteness brings on another form from julf penet fi johan helsingius it would be trivially easy to bring anon penet fi to a screeching halt in fact it has happened a couple of times already but as we are talking threats here let me make one as well a very simple one if somebody uses something like the udp or maliciously brings down anon penet fi by some other means it will stay down but i will let the users know why and name the person who did it ok as somebody said on this thread you have to take personal responsibility for your actions right from avs ccc amdahl com atul v salgaonkar i am very grateful and appreciative of this service courtesey of penet fi some important questions about my personal life career job were resolved due to kind help of other people who had been thru similar situations in return i have also replied to anon postings where i thought i could make a positive contribution in general anon service is a great in my opinion although like any tool some people will not use it responsibly i suggest that it should be kept alive wasting bandwidth is less important than saving lives i think from us mmm serc m com elisa j collins i have been informed that the anonymous posting service to many newsgroups has been turned off as a result of discussions in this newsgroup over people abusing it i had been posting to a nontechnical misc newsgroup about an intimate topic for which i felt i required privacy i have received immeasurable help from the people in that newsgroup and i have never used anonymity to behave in an abusive immature or unethical fashion toward anyone please folks believe me i need this service please consider my point of view and permit admin anon penet fi to turn the service back on thank you see also part first file what is identity on the internet why is identity un important on the internet how does my email address not identify me and my background how can i find out more about somebody from their email address why is identification un stable on the internet what is the future of identification on the internet what is privacy on the internet why is privacy un important on the internet how in secure are internet networks how in secure is my account how in secure are my files and directories how in secure is x windows how in secure is my email how am i not liable for my email and postings how do i provide more less information to others on my identity who is my sysadmin what does s he know about me why is privacy un stable on the internet what is the future of privacy on the internet what is anonymity on the internet why is anonymity un important on the internet how can anonymity be protected on the internet what is anonymous mail what is anonymous posting why is anonymity un stable on the internet what is the future of anonymity on the internet part previous file what unix programs are related to privacy how can i learn about or use cryptography what is the cypherpunks mailing list what are some privacy related newsgroups faqs what is internet privacy enhanced mail pem what are other request for comments rfcs related to privacy how can i run an anonymous remailer what are references on privacy in email what are some email usenet and internet use policies what is the mit crosslink anonymous message tv program what is digital cash what is a hacker or cracker what is a cypherpunk what is steganography and anonymous pools what is security through obscurity what are identity daemons what standards are needed to guard electronic privacy what is the electronic frontier foundation eff who are computer professionals for social responsibility cpsr what was operation sun devil and the steve jackson game case what is integrated services digital network isdn what is the national research and education network nren what is the fbi s proposed digital telephony act what other u s legislation is related to privacy on networks what are references on rights in cyberspace what is the computers and academic freedom caf archive what is the background behind the internet how is internet anarchy like the english language most wanted list change history this is part of the privacy anonymity faq obtained via anonymous ftp to pit manager mit edu pub usenet news answers net privacy or newsgroups news answers sci answers alt answers every days written by l detweiler ld longs lance colostate edu all rights reserved
sci.crypt	re pgp pem and rfc s was cryptography patents in article apr natasha portal com bob natasha portal com bob cain writes i hope my cynicism is misplaced here go ahead i m not afraid to be wrong every once in a while but i have an uneasy feeling that i am right it is and you are wrong yet you emotionally state a bunch of crap as fact with a tiny disclaimer at the end check your facts first and grow up why is there such a strong correlation between interest in cryptography and immaturity i wonder oh i see flame someone tell them that they are immature tell them they are wrong and then don t offer any proof for your assertions you really are a putz put up or shut up cpk it s been days do you know where your wallet is
sci.crypt	re fifth amendment and passwords in c jzsz jzo cs uiuc edu kadie cs uiuc edu carl m kadie writes the crypto key disclosure issue hasn t come up yet but current law suggests that it s a loser for the defendant he ll be compelled to turn over the key it has actually come up or it will in a week or two in nz i ll post the outcome when the trial finishes which could take months btw overall it looks like you can t be forced to reveal a password if anyone can provide a convincing legal argument to the contrary ie an actual court case i d be most interested peter pgut cs aukuni ac nz p gutmann cs aukuni ac nz gutmann p kosmos wcc govt nz peterg kcbbs gen nz peter nacjack gen nz peter phlarnschlorpht nacjack gen nz in order of preference one of em s bound to work think or thwim
sci.crypt	isoc symposium on net security call for papers the internet society symposium on network and distributed system security february catamaran hotel san diego california the symposium will bring together people who are building software and hardware to provide network or distributed system security services the symposium is intended for those interested in practical aspects of network and distributed system security rather than in theory symposium proceedings will be published by the internet society topics for the symposium include but are not limited to the following design and implementation of services access control authentication availability confidentiality integrity and non repudiation including criteria for placing services at particular protocol layers design and implementation of security mechanisms and support services encipherment and key management systems authorization and audit systems and intrusion detection systems requirements and architectures for distributed applications and network functions message handling file transport remote file access directories time synchronization interactive sessions remote data base management and access routing voice and video multicast and conferencing news groups network management boot services mobile computing and remote i o special issues and problems in security architecture such as very large systems like the international internet and high speed systems like the gigabit testbeds now being built interplay between security goals and other goals efficiency reliability interoperability resource sharing and low cost general chair dan nessett lawrence livermore national laboratory program chairs russ housley xerox special information systems rob shirey the mitre corporation program committee dave balenson trusted information systems tom berson anagram laboratories matt bishop dartmouth college ed cain u s defense information systems agency jim ellis cert coordination center steve kent bolt beranek and newman john linn independent consultant clifford neuman information sciences institute michael roe cambridge university rob rosenthal u s national institute of standards and technology jeff schiller massachusetts institute of technology ravi sandhu george mason university peter yee u s national aeronautics and space administration submissions the committee seeks both original technical papers and proposals for panel discussions on technical and other topics of general interest technical papers should be pages in length panels should include three or four speakers a panel proposal must name the panel chair include a one page topic introduction authored by the chair and also include one page position summaries authored by each speaker both the technical papers and the panel papers will appear in the proceedings submissions must be made by august submissions should be made via electronic mail to symposium smiley mitre org submissions may be in either of two formats ascii or postscript if the committee is unable to read a postscript submission it will be returned and ascii requested therefore postscript submissions should arrive well before august if electronic submission is absolutely impossible submissions should be sent via postal mail to robert w shirey mail stop z the mitre corporation mclean virginia usa all submissions must include both an internet electronic mail address and a postal address each submission will be acknowledged through the medium by which it is received if acknowledgment is not received within seven days please contact either rob shirey shirey mitre org or russ housley housley mclean csd xerox com or telephone mana weigand at mitre in mclean authors and panelists will be notified of acceptance by october instructions for preparing camera ready copy for the proceedings will be postal mailed at that time the camera ready copy must be received by november
sci.crypt	re pem and mime in article qg m e nigel msen com edward vielmetti writes i would suggest that attractive mime formatted news messages a day would be sufficient to get a few people thinking about adding mime support to news readers esp if the content is really worth it but that s just the problem there is no such thing as mime formatted by analogy mime is a content labelling standard for the box not a specification for the contents themselves it provides a standard for like minded individuals to exchange mail containing an agreed upon data format you say tomahto i say tomaeto you say postscript i say sgml cheers marc marc thibault cis put another log marc tanda isis org nc freenet aa on the fire
sci.crypt	text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption note this file will also be available via anonymous file transfer from csrc ncsl nist gov in directory pub nistnews and via the nist computer security bbs at the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april statement by the press secretary the president today announced a new initiative that will bring the federal government together with industry in a voluntary program to improve the security and privacy of telephone communications while meeting the legitimate needs of law enforcement the initiative will involve the creation of new products to accelerate the development and use of advanced and secure telecommunications networks and wireless communications links for too long there has been little or no dialogue between our private sector and the law enforcement community to resolve the tension between economic vitality and the real challenges of protecting americans rather than use technology to accommodate the sometimes competing interests of economic growth privacy and law enforcement previous policies have pitted government against industry and the rights of privacy against law enforcement sophisticated encryption technology has been used for years to protect electronic funds transfer it is now being used to protect electronic mail and computer files while encryption technology can help americans protect business secrets and the unauthorized release of personal information it also can be used by terrorists drug dealers and other criminals a state of the art microcircuit called the clipper chip has been developed by government engineers the chip represents a new approach to encryption technology it can be used in new relatively inexpensive encryption devices that can be attached to an ordinary telephone it scrambles telephone communications using an encryption algorithm that is more powerful than many in commercial use today this new technology will help companies protect proprietary information protect the privacy of personal phone conversations and prevent unauthorized release of data transmitted electronically at the same time this technology preserves the ability of federal state and local law enforcement agencies to intercept lawfully the phone conversations of criminals a key escrow system will be established to ensure that the clipper chip is used to protect the privacy of law abiding americans each device containing the chip will have two unique keys numbers that will be needed by authorized government agencies to decode messages encoded by the device when the device is manufactured the two keys will be deposited separately in two key escrow data bases that will be established by the attorney general access to these keys will be limited to government officials with legal authorization to conduct a wiretap the clipper chip technology provides law enforcement with no new authorities to access the content of the private conversations of americans to demonstrate the effectiveness of this new technology the attorney general will soon purchase several thousand of the new devices in addition respected experts from outside the government will be offered access to the confidential details of the algorithm to assess its capabilities and publicly report their findings the chip is an important step in addressing the problem of encryption s dual edge sword encryption helps to protect the privacy of individuals and industry but it also can shield criminals and terrorists we need the clipper chip and other approaches that can both provide law abiding citizens with access to the encryption they need and prevent criminals from using it to hide their illegal activities in order to assess technology trends and explore new approaches like the key escrow system the president has directed government agencies to develop a comprehensive policy on encryption that accommodates the privacy of our citizens including the need to employ voice or data encryption for business purposes the ability of authorized officials to access telephone calls and data under proper court or other legal order when necessary to protect our citizens the effective and timely use of the most modern technology to build the national information infrastructure needed to promote economic growth and the competitiveness of american industry in the global marketplace and the need of u s companies to manufacture and export high technology products the president has directed early and frequent consultations with affected industries the congress and groups that advocate the privacy rights of individuals as policy options are developed the administration is committed to working with the private sector to spur the development of a national information infrastructure which will use new telecommunications and computer technologies to give americans unprecedented access to information this infrastructure of high speed networks information superhighways will transmit video images hdtv programming and huge data files as easily as today s telephone system transmits voice since encryption technology will play an increasingly important role in that infrastructure the federal government must act quickly to develop consistent comprehensive policies regarding its use the administration is committed to policies that protect all americans right to privacy while also protecting them from those who break the law further information is provided in an accompanying fact sheet the provisions of the president s directive to acquire the new encryption technology are also available for additional details call mat heyman national institute of standards and technology questions and answers about the clinton administration s telecommunications initiative q does this approach expand the authority of government agencies to listen in on phone conversations a no clipper chip technology provides law enforcement with no new authorities to access the content of the private conversations of americans q suppose a law enforcement agency is conducting a wiretap on a drug smuggling ring and intercepts a conversation encrypted using the device what would they have to do to decipher the message a they would have to obtain legal authorization normally a court order to do the wiretap in the first place they would then present documentation of this authorization to the two entities responsible for safeguarding the keys and obtain the keys for the device being used by the drug smugglers the key is split into two parts which are stored separately in order to ensure the security of the key escrow system q who will run the key escrow data banks a the two key escrow data banks will be run by two independent entities at this point the department of justice and the administration have yet to determine which agencies will oversee the key escrow data banks q how strong is the security in the device how can i be sure how strong the security is a this system is more secure than many other voice encryption systems readily available today while the algorithm will remain classified to protect the security of the key escrow system we are willing to invite an independent panel of cryptography experts to evaluate the algorithm to assure all potential users that there are no unrecognized vulnerabilities q whose decision was it to propose this product a the national security council the justice department the commerce department and other key agencies were involved in this decision this approach has been endorsed by the president the vice president and appropriate cabinet officials q who was consulted the congress industry a we have on going discussions with congress and industry on encryption issues and expect those discussions to intensify as we carry out our review of encryption policy we have briefed members of congress and industry leaders on the decisions related to this initiative q will the government provide the hardware to manufacturers a the government designed and developed the key access encryption microcircuits but it is not providing the microcircuits to product manufacturers product manufacturers can acquire the microcircuits from the chip manufacturer that produces them q who provides the clipper chip a mykotronx programs it at their facility in torrance california and will sell the chip to encryption device manufacturers the programming function could be licensed to other vendors in the future q how do i buy one of these encryption devices a we expect several manufacturers to consider incorporating the clipper chip into their devices q if the administration were unable to find a technological solution like the one proposed would the administration be willing to use legal remedies to restrict access to more powerful encryption devices a this is a fundamental policy question which will be considered during the broad policy review the key escrow mechanism will provide americans with an encryption product that is more secure more convenient and less expensive than others readily available today but it is just one piece of what must be the comprehensive approach to encryption technology which the administration is developing the administration is not saying since encryption threatens the public safety and effective law enforcement we will prohibit it outright as some countries have effectively done nor is the u s saying that every american as a matter of right is entitled to an unbreakable commercial encryption product there is a false tension created in the assessment that this issue is an either or proposition rather both concerns can be and in fact are harmoniously balanced through a reasoned balanced approach such as is proposed with the clipper chip and similar encryption techniques q what does this decision indicate about how the clinton administration s policy toward encryption will differ from that of the bush administration a it indicates that we understand the importance of encryption technology in telecommunications and computing and are committed to working with industry and public interest groups to find innovative ways to protect americans privacy help businesses to compete and ensure that law enforcement agencies have the tools they need to fight crime and terrorism q will the devices be exportable will other devices that use the government hardware a voice encryption devices are subject to export control requirements case by case review for each export is required to ensure appropriate use of these devices the same is true for other encryption devices one of the attractions of this technology is the protection it can give to u s companies operating at home and abroad with this in mind we expect export licenses will be granted on a case by case basis for u s companies seeking to use these devices to secure their own communications abroad we plan to review the possibility of permitting wider exportability of these products
sci.crypt	re keeping your mouth shut was hard drive security in article apr cadkey com eric cadkey com eric holtman writes in article apr yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes i m not a lawyer so correct me if i m wrong but doing that could be considered obstruction of justice which could land you in prison for quite a while the thing that s great about the secret key is it is idea encrypted so even if the fbi do get the key they re sol unless they know the magic word if they try to force you to give them your pass phrase just say oops i forgot since the burden of proof is still on the prosecution in this country if you keep your mouth shut how can they prove that you didn t forget your pass phrase well i m no lawyer but i ll supply some ancedotal evidence which may change your mind note i do not agree at all with what went on in this case and neither will most of you that doesn t change the fact that it did happen right here in america even about three or four years ago there was a rather nasty custody case in or around washington d c the upshot was an ex husband was suing for visitation rights which were granted the woman believed that the man had been sexually molesting her children much like allen farrow but not as famous anyhows she spirits away the kids and refuses to tell the court where they are and denies him visitation rights she keeps her mouth shut and what happens she sits in jail for almost a year on contempt of court until the legislature passes a special law limiting the time a person can be held if they hadn t passed the law she d most likely still be there the kids were in new zealand i belive now story finished commetary starting imho the only reason the legislature moved was because there was an outpouring of public sympathy for this woman most people believed she was right and were outraged not likely to happen for joe random drug dealer child molester or perfectly innocent privacy lover who might have something to hide innocent until proven guilty doesn t mean you get to walk out of court humming a happy tune because the fbi can t read your disk just ask those held for contempt those who can t make bail etc etc again i disagree totally with the concept of holding someone based on suspicion but people who keep thinking that it won t happen are bound to get a rude shock when it does also not a lawyer etc but if i remember correctly the contempt of court business is used in order to compel cooperation with what is perhaps questionably different issue the legitimate business of that court quite literally the party is found guilty of holding the court in contempt now the original scheme as suggested here would be to have the key disappear if certain threatening conditions are met once the key is gone there is no question of contempt of court as there is nothing to compell the key is no longer there to be produced obstruction of justice would be a different issue but if the suspect in question would have some legitmate reason to protect his data from prying eyes however extenuated i think that this charge would be a hard nut to make perhaps it is time for a lawyer to step in and clear this all up vincent a kub wd dbx saints should always be judged guilty until they are proven vkub charlie usd edu innocent geo orwell w cherry st it is good to die before one has vermillion s dakota done anything deserving of death phone or fax to anaxandirdes king of sparta
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption isn t clipper a trademark of fairchild semiconductor andy hooper
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption well it now seems obvious what professor denning was doing last fall when this key escrow trial balloon was raised all the more need for end to end encryption schemes that bypass the government approved system by the way the clipper name isn t this already used for the clipper processor from intergraph i doubt they re the ones making the chip so a name conflict may be present tim may timothy c may crypto anarchy encryption digital money tcmay netcom com anonymous networks digital pseudonyms zero knowledge reputations information markets w a s t e aptos ca black markets collapse of governments higher power public key pgp and mailsafe available
sci.crypt	compress crypt foo des e k foo i have a bunch of questions about the encryption scheme referenced in the subject of this message what is the relative data privacy provided by the above sequence as compared with straight des does the addition of compression then encrypting make the cyphertext significantly harder to crack using current methods than straight des would running crypt after des provide greater data privacy is it important to remove the constant compress header before encryption thank you net for your wisdom jad john a dilley jad nsa hp com
sci.crypt	clipper chip and crypto key escrow this document is in the anonymous ftp directory at nist looks to me like the other shoe has dropped jim gillogly trewesday astron s r note this file will also be available via anonymous file transfer from csrc ncsl nist gov in directory pub nistnews and via the nist computer security bbs at the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april statement by the press secretary the president today announced a new initiative that will bring the federal government together with industry in a voluntary program to improve the security and privacy of telephone communications while meeting the legitimate needs of law enforcement the initiative will involve the creation of new products to accelerate the development and use of advanced and secure telecommunications networks and wireless communications links for too long there has been little or no dialogue between our private sector and the law enforcement community to resolve the tension between economic vitality and the real challenges of protecting americans rather than use technology to accommodate the sometimes competing interests of economic growth privacy and law enforcement previous policies have pitted government against industry and the rights of privacy against law enforcement sophisticated encryption technology has been used for years to protect electronic funds transfer it is now being used to protect electronic mail and computer files while encryption technology can help americans protect business secrets and the unauthorized release of personal information it also can be used by terrorists drug dealers and other criminals a state of the art microcircuit called the clipper chip has been developed by government engineers the chip represents a new approach to encryption technology it can be used in new relatively inexpensive encryption devices that can be attached to an ordinary telephone it scrambles telephone communications using an encryption algorithm that is more powerful than many in commercial use today this new technology will help companies protect proprietary information protect the privacy of personal phone conversations and prevent unauthorized release of data transmitted electronically at the same time this technology preserves the ability of federal state and local law enforcement agencies to intercept lawfully the phone conversations of criminals a key escrow system will be established to ensure that the clipper chip is used to protect the privacy of law abiding americans each device containing the chip will have two unique keys numbers that will be needed by authorized government agencies to decode messages encoded by the device when the device is manufactured the two keys will be deposited separately in two key escrow data bases that will be established by the attorney general access to these keys will be limited to government officials with legal authorization to conduct a wiretap the clipper chip technology provides law enforcement with no new authorities to access the content of the private conversations of americans to demonstrate the effectiveness of this new technology the attorney general will soon purchase several thousand of the new devices in addition respected experts from outside the government will be offered access to the confidential details of the algorithm to assess its capabilities and publicly report their findings the chip is an important step in addressing the problem of encryption s dual edge sword encryption helps to protect the privacy of individuals and industry but it also can shield criminals and terrorists we need the clipper chip and other approaches that can both provide law abiding citizens with access to the encryption they need and prevent criminals from using it to hide their illegal activities in order to assess technology trends and explore new approaches like the key escrow system the president has directed government agencies to develop a comprehensive policy on encryption that accommodates the privacy of our citizens including the need to employ voice or data encryption for business purposes the ability of authorized officials to access telephone calls and data under proper court or other legal order when necessary to protect our citizens the effective and timely use of the most modern technology to build the national information infrastructure needed to promote economic growth and the competitiveness of american industry in the global marketplace and the need of u s companies to manufacture and export high technology products the president has directed early and frequent consultations with affected industries the congress and groups that advocate the privacy rights of individuals as policy options are developed the administration is committed to working with the private sector to spur the development of a national information infrastructure which will use new telecommunications and computer technologies to give americans unprecedented access to information this infrastructure of high speed networks information superhighways will transmit video images hdtv programming and huge data files as easily as today s telephone system transmits voice since encryption technology will play an increasingly important role in that infrastructure the federal government must act quickly to develop consistent comprehensive policies regarding its use the administration is committed to policies that protect all americans right to privacy while also protecting them from those who break the law further information is provided in an accompanying fact sheet the provisions of the president s directive to acquire the new encryption technology are also available for additional details call mat heyman national institute of standards and technology questions and answers about the clinton administration s telecommunications initiative q does this approach expand the authority of government agencies to listen in on phone conversations a no clipper chip technology provides law enforcement with no new authorities to access the content of the private conversations of americans q suppose a law enforcement agency is conducting a wiretap on a drug smuggling ring and intercepts a conversation encrypted using the device what would they have to do to decipher the message a they would have to obtain legal authorization normally a court order to do the wiretap in the first place they would then present documentation of this authorization to the two entities responsible for safeguarding the keys and obtain the keys for the device being used by the drug smugglers the key is split into two parts which are stored separately in order to ensure the security of the key escrow system q who will run the key escrow data banks a the two key escrow data banks will be run by two independent entities at this point the department of justice and the administration have yet to determine which agencies will oversee the key escrow data banks q how strong is the security in the device how can i be sure how strong the security is a this system is more secure than many other voice encryption systems readily available today while the algorithm will remain classified to protect the security of the key escrow system we are willing to invite an independent panel of cryptography experts to evaluate the algorithm to assure all potential users that there are no unrecognized vulnerabilities q whose decision was it to propose this product a the national security council the justice department the commerce department and other key agencies were involved in this decision this approach has been endorsed by the president the vice president and appropriate cabinet officials q who was consulted the congress industry a we have on going discussions with congress and industry on encryption issues and expect those discussions to intensify as we carry out our review of encryption policy we have briefed members of congress and industry leaders on the decisions related to this initiative q will the government provide the hardware to manufacturers a the government designed and developed the key access encryption microcircuits but it is not providing the microcircuits to product manufacturers product manufacturers can acquire the microcircuits from the chip manufacturer that produces them q who provides the clipper chip a mykotronx programs it at their facility in torrance california and will sell the chip to encryption device manufacturers the programming function could be licensed to other vendors in the future q how do i buy one of these encryption devices a we expect several manufacturers to consider incorporating the clipper chip into their devices q if the administration were unable to find a technological solution like the one proposed would the administration be willing to use legal remedies to restrict access to more powerful encryption devices a this is a fundamental policy question which will be considered during the broad policy review the key escrow mechanism will provide americans with an encryption product that is more secure more convenient and less expensive than others readily available today but it is just one piece of what must be the comprehensive approach to encryption technology which the administration is developing the administration is not saying since encryption threatens the public safety and effective law enforcement we will prohibit it outright as some countries have effectively done nor is the u s saying that every american as a matter of right is entitled to an unbreakable commercial encryption product there is a false tension created in the assessment that this issue is an either or proposition rather both concerns can be and in fact are harmoniously balanced through a reasoned balanced approach such as is proposed with the clipper chip and similar encryption techniques q what does this decision indicate about how the clinton administration s policy toward encryption will differ from that of the bush administration a it indicates that we understand the importance of encryption technology in telecommunications and computing and are committed to working with industry and public interest groups to find innovative ways to protect americans privacy help businesses to compete and ensure that law enforcement agencies have the tools they need to fight crime and terrorism q will the devices be exportable will other devices that use the government hardware a voice encryption devices are subject to export control requirements case by case review for each export is required to ensure appropriate use of these devices the same is true for other encryption devices one of the attractions of this technology is the protection it can give to u s companies operating at home and abroad with this in mind we expect export licenses will be granted on a case by case basis for u s companies seeking to use these devices to secure their own communications abroad we plan to review the possibility of permitting wider exportability of these products jim gillogly trewesday astron s r
sci.crypt	secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow may as well look at one piece of this at a time this paragraph to demonstrate the effectiveness of this new technology the attorney general will soon purchase several thousand of the new devices in addition respected experts from outside the government will be offered access to the confidential details of the algorithm to assess its capabilities and publicly report their findings means they aren t planning to make it public as was done with des as it says in both sci crypt faqs there s no way we are going to achieve the same level of comfort with clipper that we finally have with des if we can t actually get our hands on the bits and watch them flow around even the best experts aren t going to think of everything look how long it took biham and shamir to get a handle on just how good des is and for all we know there s still more to learn jim gillogly trewesday astron s r
sci.crypt	re fifth amendment and passwords in article c jzsz jzo cs uiuc edu kadie cs uiuc edu carl m kadie writes ashall magnus acs ohio state edu andrew s hall writes i am postive someone will correct me if i am wrong but doesn t the fifth also cover not being forced to do actions that are self incriminating from mike godwin mnemonic eff org posted with permission carl no but they could compell you to produce the key to a safe where as it happens evidence that will convict you is stored the crypto key disclosure issue hasn t come up yet but current law suggests that it s a loser for the defendant he ll be compelled to turn over the key the test for compelled self incrimination is whether the material to be disclosed in itself tends to inculpate the discloser in the example i gave above the safe key itself has no testimonial value ergo it can be disclosed under compulsion e g subpoena duces tecum moreover the government can always immunize the disclosure of a crypto key compelling you to disclose the key at the price of not using the fact of your disclosure as evidence in the case against you of course they can use whatever they discover as a result of this disclosure against you mike lets carry this one step further suppose the text of the key is in itself conclusive evidence of the same crime for which the encrypted material is further evidence i find myself envisaging a scenario like this you have made some scans of peanuts strips you encrypt them the key is a phrase the comic police haul you in they seize your system they find the encrypted file cp whats that file you i take the fifth cp what s the keyphrase to that file you i take the fifth judge you have to reveal the keyphrase i disagree but i m not a judge you your honor revealing the keyphrase in it s own right would tend to incriminate me of breaking laws independent of what may or may not be in the encrypted file judge i grant you immunity from whatever may be learned from the key itself you the keyphrase is i confess to deliberately evading copyright the file encoded with this keyphrase contains illegal scans of copyrighted peanuts strips judge and cp oh how will they get you now i m not saying that they won t or can t or even that they shouldn t but what legal mechanism will they use should we be crossposting this to misc legal peter trei ptrei mitre org
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption clipper csrc ncsl nist gov clipper chip announcement writes the president today announced a new initiative that will bring the federal government together with industry in a voluntary program to improve the security and privacy of telephone communications while meeting the legitimate needs of law enforcement a nice formulation for the introduction of the first encryption devices with built in trapdoors just like the feds wanted for too long there has been little or no dialogue between our private sector and the law enforcement community to resolve the tension between economic vitality and the real challenges of protecting americans rather than use technology to accommodate the sometimes competing interests of economic growth privacy and law enforcement previous policies have pitted government against industry and the rights of privacy against law enforcement bla bla protect electronic mail and computer files while encryption technology can help americans protect business secrets and the unauthorized release of personal information it also can be used by terrorists drug dealers and other criminals indeed and the current proposal does nothing to prevent the latter an ordinary telephone it scrambles telephone communications using an encryption algorithm that is more powerful than many in commercial use today this doesn t say much there are many incredibly weak encryption algorithms in commercial use today this new technology will help companies protect proprietary information protect the privacy of personal phone conversations and prevent unauthorized release of data transmitted electronically except from the government at the same time this technology preserves the ability of federal state and local law enforcement agencies to intercept lawfully the phone conversations of criminals nope the criminals won t be stupid enough to use the new chip they ll use something secure this technology provides only means to intercept the phone conversations of people who are stupid enough to use it agencies to decode messages encoded by the device when the device is manufactured the two keys will be deposited separately in two key escrow data bases that will be established by the attorney general access to these keys will be limited to government officials with legal authorization to conduct a wiretap that is the government has the keys it doesn t matter much if they are in one or in two of its hands the clipper chip technology provides law enforcement with no new authorities to access the content of the private conversations of americans correct it does however provide those americans with the false sense of privacy devices in addition respected experts from outside the government will be offered access to the confidential details of the algorithm to assess its capabilities and publicly report their findings if the screening is not public it cannot be trusted some people do not trust des even today after all the examinations only because some parts of its design were kept secret the chip is an important step in addressing the problem of encryption s dual edge sword encryption helps to protect the privacy of individuals and industry but it also can shield criminals and terrorists we need the clipper chip and other approaches that can both provide law abiding citizens with access to the encryption they need and prevent criminals from using it to hide their illegal activities in order to assess technology so they ll use a different technology to hide their illegal activities so will those law abiding citizens who do not trust their government not to misuse its abilities to decrypt their conversations the privacy of our citizens including the need to employ voice or data encryption for business purposes except from the government the need of u s companies to manufacture and export high technology products huh later it says that the new technology will be export restricted since encryption technology will play an increasingly important role in that infrastructure the federal government must act quickly to develop consistent comprehensive policies regarding its use the administration is committed to policies that protect all americans right to privacy while also protecting them from those who break the law in short the new technology can protect the law abiding citizen s privacy from the casual snooper it cannot protect him from the government if it decides to misuse its ability to decrypt the conversations protect him from the criminals who succeed to break the new encryption scheme or to steal the keys or to bribe the people who handle them etc prevent the criminals from using secure encryption for communication q does this approach expand the authority of government agencies to listen in on phone conversations a no clipper chip technology provides law enforcement with no new authorities to access the content of the private conversations of americans correct however it does not provide them that much privacy as it claims q who will run the key escrow data banks a the two key escrow data banks will be run by two independent entities at this point the department of justice and the administration have yet to determine which agencies will oversee the key escrow data banks two candidates the nsa and the mafia q how strong is the security in the device how can i be sure how strong the security is a this system is more secure than many other voice encryption systems readily available today that is trust us while the algorithm will remain classified to protect the security of the key escrow security through obscurity system we are willing to invite an independent panel of cryptography experts to evaluate the algorithm to assure all potential users that there are no unrecognized vulnerabilities if it s not entirely open to public examination it cannot be trusted besides who can prove that the devices used for examination and the ones built into your phones will be the same q whose decision was it to propose this product a the national security council the justice department the the nsa and the fbi q who was consulted the congress industry a we have on going discussions with congress and industry on encryption issues and expect those discussions to intensify as we carry out our review of encryption policy we have briefed members of congress and industry leaders on the decisions related to this initiative why did they forget the academia q will the government provide the hardware to manufacturers a the government designed and developed the key access encryption microcircuits but it is not providing the microcircuits to product manufacturers product manufacturers can acquire the microcircuits from the chip manufacturer that produces them doesn t this smell to monopolism q who provides the clipper chip a mykotronx programs it at their facility in torrance california and will sell the chip to encryption device manufacturers the programming function could be licensed to other vendors in the future like the mafia q if the administration were unable to find a technological solution like the one proposed would the administration be willing to use legal remedies to restrict access to more powerful encryption devices this is the main question why was it buried at the end a this is a fundamental policy question which will be considered during the broad policy review the key escrow we ll see mechanism will provide americans with an encryption product that is more secure more convenient and less expensive than others readily available today but it is just one trust us the administration is not saying since encryption threatens the public safety and effective law enforcement we will prohibit it outright as some countries have in short if we decide to outlaw strong crypto we ll tell you effectively done nor is the u s saying that every american as a matter of right is entitled to an unbreakable commercial encryption product there is a since the us government seems to consider strong crypto as munitions and since the us constitutions guarantees the right to every american to bear arms why is not every american entitled as a matter of right to an unbreakable commercial encryption product a it indicates that we understand the importance of encryption technology in telecommunications and computing and are committed to working with industry and public interest groups to find innovative ways to protect americans privacy help businesses to compete and ensure that law enforcement agencies have the tools they need to fight crime and terrorism bullshit the proposed technology provides a false sense of security encryption devices with built in capabilities for breaking the encryption does not prevent the criminals to use strong crypto and is a step to outlaw strong crypto q will the devices be exportable will other devices that use the government hardware a voice encryption devices are subject to export control requirements case by case review for each export is required to ensure appropriate use of these devices the who was the optimist who believed that the new administration will leave the export controls on strong crypto devices ok i m not american it s not my business but i just couldn t resist to comment the whole plot looks so totalitaristic it s up to you americans to fight for your rights regards vesselin p s now is the time for david sternlight to pop up and claim that the new system is great vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center university of hamburg tel fax fachbereich informatik agn pgp public key available on request vogt koelln strasse rm c e mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de d hamburg germany
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption the key question is whether non clipper encryption will be made illegal the administration is not saying since encryption threatens the public safety and effective law enforcement we will prohibit it outright as some countries have effectively done nor is the u s saying that every american as a matter of right is entitled to an unbreakable commercial encryption product there is a false tension created in the assessment that this issue is an either or proposition rather both concerns can be and in fact are harmoniously balanced through a reasoned balanced approach such as is proposed with the clipper chip and similar encryption techniques the clear middle ground implied by these statements is to say that americans have the right to clipper encryption but not to unbreakable encryption this implies that ultimately non clipper strong encryption must become illegal as an aside isn t the language here jarring all this talk about harmonious balance when they re talking about taking away people s right to communications privacy although the article emphasizes voice communication data and mail encryption is mentioned as well sophisticated encryption technology has been used for years to protect electronic funds transfer it is now being used to protect electronic mail and computer files the privacy of our citizens including the need to employ voice or data encryption for business purposes it looks like the worst nightmares raised by dorothy denning s proposals are coming true if the government continues on this course i imagine that we will see strong cryptography made illegal encryption programs for disk files and email as well as software to allow for encrypted voice communications will be distributed only through the underground people will have to learn how to hide the fact that they are protecting their privacy it s shocking and frightening to see that this is actually happening here hal finney hal alumni caltech edu
sci.crypt	the battle is joined it looks like dorothy denning s wrong headed ideas have gotten to the administration even sooner than we feared it s time to make sure they hear the other side of the story and hear it loudly phil forwarded message subject text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption note this file will also be available via anonymous file transfer from csrc ncsl nist gov in directory pub nistnews and via the nist computer security bbs at the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april statement by the press secretary the president today announced a new initiative that will bring the federal government together with industry in a voluntary program to improve the security and privacy of telephone communications while meeting the legitimate needs of law enforcement the initiative will involve the creation of new products to accelerate the development and use of advanced and secure telecommunications networks and wireless communications links for too long there has been little or no dialogue between our private sector and the law enforcement community to resolve the tension between economic vitality and the real challenges of protecting americans rather than use technology to accommodate the sometimes competing interests of economic growth privacy and law enforcement previous policies have pitted government against industry and the rights of privacy against law enforcement sophisticated encryption technology has been used for years to protect electronic funds transfer it is now being used to protect electronic mail and computer files while encryption technology can help americans protect business secrets and the unauthorized release of personal information it also can be used by terrorists drug dealers and other criminals a state of the art microcircuit called the clipper chip has been developed by government engineers the chip represents a new approach to encryption technology it can be used in new relatively inexpensive encryption devices that can be attached to an ordinary telephone it scrambles telephone communications using an encryption algorithm that is more powerful than many in commercial use today this new technology will help companies protect proprietary information protect the privacy of personal phone conversations and prevent unauthorized release of data transmitted electronically at the same time this technology preserves the ability of federal state and local law enforcement agencies to intercept lawfully the phone conversations of criminals a key escrow system will be established to ensure that the clipper chip is used to protect the privacy of law abiding americans each device containing the chip will have two unique keys numbers that will be needed by authorized government agencies to decode messages encoded by the device when the device is manufactured the two keys will be deposited separately in two key escrow data bases that will be established by the attorney general access to these keys will be limited to government officials with legal authorization to conduct a wiretap the clipper chip technology provides law enforcement with no new authorities to access the content of the private conversations of americans to demonstrate the effectiveness of this new technology the attorney general will soon purchase several thousand of the new devices in addition respected experts from outside the government will be offered access to the confidential details of the algorithm to assess its capabilities and publicly report their findings the chip is an important step in addressing the problem of encryption s dual edge sword encryption helps to protect the privacy of individuals and industry but it also can shield criminals and terrorists we need the clipper chip and other approaches that can both provide law abiding citizens with access to the encryption they need and prevent criminals from using it to hide their illegal activities in order to assess technology trends and explore new approaches like the key escrow system the president has directed government agencies to develop a comprehensive policy on encryption that accommodates the privacy of our citizens including the need to employ voice or data encryption for business purposes the ability of authorized officials to access telephone calls and data under proper court or other legal order when necessary to protect our citizens the effective and timely use of the most modern technology to build the national information infrastructure needed to promote economic growth and the competitiveness of american industry in the global marketplace and the need of u s companies to manufacture and export high technology products the president has directed early and frequent consultations with affected industries the congress and groups that advocate the privacy rights of individuals as policy options are developed the administration is committed to working with the private sector to spur the development of a national information infrastructure which will use new telecommunications and computer technologies to give americans unprecedented access to information this infrastructure of high speed networks information superhighways will transmit video images hdtv programming and huge data files as easily as today s telephone system transmits voice since encryption technology will play an increasingly important role in that infrastructure the federal government must act quickly to develop consistent comprehensive policies regarding its use the administration is committed to policies that protect all americans right to privacy while also protecting them from those who break the law further information is provided in an accompanying fact sheet the provisions of the president s directive to acquire the new encryption technology are also available for additional details call mat heyman national institute of standards and technology questions and answers about the clinton administration s telecommunications initiative q does this approach expand the authority of government agencies to listen in on phone conversations a no clipper chip technology provides law enforcement with no new authorities to access the content of the private conversations of americans q suppose a law enforcement agency is conducting a wiretap on a drug smuggling ring and intercepts a conversation encrypted using the device what would they have to do to decipher the message a they would have to obtain legal authorization normally a court order to do the wiretap in the first place they would then present documentation of this authorization to the two entities responsible for safeguarding the keys and obtain the keys for the device being used by the drug smugglers the key is split into two parts which are stored separately in order to ensure the security of the key escrow system q who will run the key escrow data banks a the two key escrow data banks will be run by two independent entities at this point the department of justice and the administration have yet to determine which agencies will oversee the key escrow data banks q how strong is the security in the device how can i be sure how strong the security is a this system is more secure than many other voice encryption systems readily available today while the algorithm will remain classified to protect the security of the key escrow system we are willing to invite an independent panel of cryptography experts to evaluate the algorithm to assure all potential users that there are no unrecognized vulnerabilities q whose decision was it to propose this product a the national security council the justice department the commerce department and other key agencies were involved in this decision this approach has been endorsed by the president the vice president and appropriate cabinet officials q who was consulted the congress industry a we have on going discussions with congress and industry on encryption issues and expect those discussions to intensify as we carry out our review of encryption policy we have briefed members of congress and industry leaders on the decisions related to this initiative q will the government provide the hardware to manufacturers a the government designed and developed the key access encryption microcircuits but it is not providing the microcircuits to product manufacturers product manufacturers can acquire the microcircuits from the chip manufacturer that produces them q who provides the clipper chip a mykotronx programs it at their facility in torrance california and will sell the chip to encryption device manufacturers the programming function could be licensed to other vendors in the future q how do i buy one of these encryption devices a we expect several manufacturers to consider incorporating the clipper chip into their devices q if the administration were unable to find a technological solution like the one proposed would the administration be willing to use legal remedies to restrict access to more powerful encryption devices a this is a fundamental policy question which will be considered during the broad policy review the key escrow mechanism will provide americans with an encryption product that is more secure more convenient and less expensive than others readily available today but it is just one piece of what must be the comprehensive approach to encryption technology which the administration is developing the administration is not saying since encryption threatens the public safety and effective law enforcement we will prohibit it outright as some countries have effectively done nor is the u s saying that every american as a matter of right is entitled to an unbreakable commercial encryption product there is a false tension created in the assessment that this issue is an either or proposition rather both concerns can be and in fact are harmoniously balanced through a reasoned balanced approach such as is proposed with the clipper chip and similar encryption techniques q what does this decision indicate about how the clinton administration s policy toward encryption will differ from that of the bush administration a it indicates that we understand the importance of encryption technology in telecommunications and computing and are committed to working with industry and public interest groups to find innovative ways to protect americans privacy help businesses to compete and ensure that law enforcement agencies have the tools they need to fight crime and terrorism q will the devices be exportable will other devices that use the government hardware a voice encryption devices are subject to export control requirements case by case review for each export is required to ensure appropriate use of these devices the same is true for other encryption devices one of the attractions of this technology is the protection it can give to u s companies operating at home and abroad with this in mind we expect export licenses will be granted on a case by case basis for u s companies seeking to use these devices to secure their own communications abroad we plan to review the possibility of permitting wider exportability of these products
sci.crypt	re macpgp source problems yes my error you will need the diff between the standard console h and console c supplied with symantec s think c and the specially modified one that works with macpgp i added the two diffs to the end of the signature file macpgp srcsignature in pub grady of netcom com please download via anonymous ftp and using sed oops cutting and pasting fix em up will one of you mac geniuses please port this to macapp or appmaker or grady grady netcom com ef e ad d d c f fc ac f d f e f
sci.crypt	re inventing crypto policy an eff statement april initial eff analysis of clinton privacy and security proposal the clinton administration today made a major announcement on cryptography policy which will effect the privacy and security of millions of americans the first part of the plan is to begin a comprehensive inquiry into major communications privacy issues such as export controls which have effectively denied most people easy access to robust encryption and law enforcement issues posed by new technology however eff is very concerned that the administration has already reached a conclusion on one critical part of the inquiry before any public comment or discussion has been allowed apparently the administration is going to use its leverage to get all telephone equipment vendors to adopt a voice encryption standard developed by the national security agency the so called clipper chip is an bit split key escrowed encryption scheme which will be built into chips manufactured by a military contractor two separate escrow agents would store users keys and be required to turn them over law enforcement upon presentation of a valid warrant the encryption scheme used is to be classified but the chips will be available to any manufacturer for incorporation into its communications products this proposal raises a number of serious concerns first the administration has adopted a solution before conducting an inquiry the nsa developed clipper chip may not be the most secure product other vendors or developers may have better schemes furthermore we should not rely on the government as the sole source for the clipper or any other chips rather independent chip manufacturers should be able to produce chipsets based on open standards second an algorithm cannot be trusted unless it can be tested yet the administration proposes to keep the chip algorithm classified eff believes that any standard adopted ought to be public and open the public will only have confidence in the security of a standard that is open to independent expert scrutiny third while the use of the use of a split key dual escrowed system may prove to be a reasonable balance between privacy and law enforcement needs the details of this scheme must be explored publicly before it is adopted what will give people confidence in the safety of their keys does disclosure of keys to a third party waive an individual s fifth amendment rights in subsequent criminal inquiries these are but a few of the many questions the administrations proposal raised but fails to answer in sum the administration has shown great sensitivity to the importance of these issues by planning a comprehensive inquiry into digital privacy and security however the clipper chip solution ought to be considered as part of the inquiry and not be adopted before the discussion even begins details of the proposal escrow the bit key will be divided between two escrow agents each of whom hold bits of each key the manufacturer of the communications device would be required to register all keys with the two independent escrow agents a key is tied to the device however not the person using it upon presentation of a valid court order the two escrow agents would have to turn the key parts over to law enforcement agents according to the presidential directive just issued the attorney general will be asked to identify appropriate escrow agents some in the administration have suggested that one non law enforcement federal agency perhaps the federal reserve and one non governmental organization could be chosen but there is no agreement on the identity of the agents yet classified algorithm and the possibility of back doors the administration claims that there are no back doors means by which the government or others could break the code without securing keys from the escrow agents and that the president will be told there are no back doors to this classified algorithm in order to prove this administration sources are interested in arranging for an all star crypto cracker team to come in under a security arrangement and examine the algorithm for trap doors the results of the investigation would then be made public the clipper chipset was designed and is being produced and a sole source secret contract between the national security agency and two private firms vlsi and mycotronx nsa work on this plan has been underway for about four years the manufacturing contract was let months ago government as market driver in order to get a market moving and to show that the government believes in the security of this system the feds will be the first big customers for this product users will include the fbi secret service vp al gore and maybe even the president at today s commerce department press briefing a number of people asked this question though why would any private organization or individual adopt a classified standard that had no independent guaranty of security or freedom from trap doors comprehensive policy inquiry the administration has also announced that it is about to commence an inquiry into all policy issues related to privacy protection encryption and law enforcement the items to be considered include export controls on encryption technology and the fbi s digital telephony proposal it appears that the this inquiry will be conducted by the national security council unfortunately however the presidential directive describing the inquiry is classified some public involvement in the process has been promised but they terms have yet to be specified from more information contact jerry berman executive director jberman eff org daniel j weitzner senior staff counsel djw eff org full text of the press releases and fact sheets issued by the administration will be available on eff s ftp site danny weitzner senior staff counsel eff
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption i am eager to hear the legal theory behind restricting exchange of cryptographic data and encrypted messages given the first admendment the theory behind regulating the personal encryption of one s personal thoughts and feelings seems even less tenable perhaps if we make a treaty with say iceland to restrict crypto paraphernalia can a good end run around the constitution happen treaties as someone pointed out has the force of any other law of the land like the bill of rights amendment congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition the government for a redress of grievances amendment a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed amendment no soldier shall in time of peace be quartered in any house without the consent of the owner nor in time of war but in a manner to be prescribed by law amendment the right of the people to be secure in their persons houses papers and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated and no warrants shall issue but upon probable cause supported by oath or affirmation and particularly describing the place to be searched and the persons or things to be seized amendment no person shall be held to answer for a capital or otherwise infamous crime unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury except in cases arising in the land or naval forces or in the militia when in actual service in time of war or public danger nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself nor be deprived of life liberty or property without due process of law nor shall private property be taken for public use without just compensation well at least for a few minutes we had some privacy grady netcom com ef e ad d d c f fc ac f d f e f
sci.crypt	rubick shortest path algorithm status what is the expected run time a factor of on a dx using the best known algorithm for finding the shortest path solution for rubicks cube from a randomly chosen position i have read the faq and followed the recent discussion on rubicks cube but i don t believe this question has been answered notice that i am specifically looking for an algorithm that finds the shortest path not just any solution it seems to me that the underlying assumption is that such a program would need to do a brute force search though positions that seems an unreasonably pessimistic assumption to me and i want to know if someone has significantly improved on that i have some ideas of my own on how to approach this problem but before i spend to much time developing them i wanted to know if someone else has already done the work administrivia i have posted this to three groups and attempted to set the followup to rec puzzles which seems to me to be the place to continue this discussion i will cross post a summary when and if it becomes appropriate email replies gladly accepted jimmy jru comtech com
sci.crypt	re pgp pem and rfc s was cryptography patents charles kincy ckincy cs umr edu wrote in article apr natasha portal com bob natasha portal com bob cain writes i hope my cynicism is misplaced here go ahead i m not afraid to be wrong every once in a while but i have an uneasy feeling that i am right it is and you are wrong yet you emotionally state a bunch of crap as fact with a tiny disclaimer at the end check your facts first and grow up why is there such a strong correlation between interest in cryptography and immaturity i wonder oh i see flame someone tell them that they are immature tell them they are wrong and then don t offer any proof for your assertions you really are a putz put up or shut up i will provide any proof you wish in private name it dickhead putz cain
sci.crypt	white house public encryption management fact sheet note the following was released by the white house today in conjunction with the announcement of the clipper chip encryption technology fact sheet public encryption management the president has approved a directive on public encryption management the directive provides for the following advanced telecommunications and commercially available encryption are part of a wave of new computer and communications technology encryption products scramble information to protect the privacy of communications and data by preventing unauthorized access advanced telecommunications systems use digital technology to rapidly and precisely handle a high volume of communications these advanced telecommunications systems are integral to the infrastructure needed to ensure economic competitiveness in the information age despite its benefits new communications technology can also frustrate lawful government electronic surveillance sophisticated encryption can have this effect in the united states when exported abroad it can be used to thwart foreign intelligence activities critical to our national interests in the past it has been possible to preserve a government capability to conduct electronic surveillance in furtherance of legitimate law enforcement and national security interests while at the same time protecting the privacy and civil liberties of all citizens as encryption technology improves doing so will require new innovative approaches in the area of communications encryption the u s government has developed a microcircuit that not only provides privacy through encryption that is substantially more robust than the current government standard but also permits escrowing of the keys needed to unlock the encryption the system for the escrowing of keys will allow the government to gain access to encrypted information only with appropriate legal authorization to assist law enforcement and other government agencies to collect and decrypt under legal authority electronically transmitted information i hereby direct the following action to be taken installation of government developed microcircuits the attorney general of the united states or her representative shall request manufacturers of communications hardware which incorporates encryption to install the u s government developed key escrow microcircuits in their products the fact of law enforcement access to the escrowed keys will not be concealed from the american public all appropriate steps shall be taken to ensure that any existing or future versions of the key escrow microcircuit are made widely available to u s communications hardware manufacturers consistent with the need to ensure the security of the key escrow system in making this decision i do not intend to prevent the private sector from developing or the government from approving other microcircuits or algorithms that are equally effective in assuring both privacy and a secure key escrow system key escrow the attorney general shall make all arrangements with appropriate entities to hold the keys for the key escrow microcircuits installed in communications equipment in each case the key holder must agree to strict security procedures to prevent unauthorized release of the keys the keys shall be released only to government agencies that have established their authority to acquire the content of those communications that have been encrypted by devices containing the microcircuits the attorney general shall review for legal sufficiency the procedures by which an agency establishes its authority to acquire the content of such communications procurement and use of encryption devices the secretary of commerce in consultation with other appropriate u s agencies shall initiate a process to write standards to facilitate the procurement and use of encryption devices fitted with key escrow microcircuits in federal communications systems that process sensitive but unclassified information i expect this process to proceed on a schedule that will permit promulgation of a final standard within six months of this directive the attorney general will procure and utilize encryption devices to the extent needed to preserve the government s ability to conduct lawful electronic surveillance and to fulfill the need for secure law enforcement communications further the attorney general shall utilize funds from the department of justice asset forfeiture super surplus fund to effect this purchase
sci.crypt	eff initial eff analysis of clinton privacy and security proposal an article from comp org eff news effector online carl april initial eff analysis of clinton privacy and security proposal the clinton administration today made a major announcement on cryptography policy which will effect the privacy and security of millions of americans the first part of the plan is to begin a comprehensive inquiry into major communications privacy issues such as export controls which have effectively denied most people easy access to robust encryption as well as law enforcement issues posed by new technology however eff is very concerned that the administration has already reached a conclusion on one critical part of the inquiry before any public comment or discussion has been allowed apparently the administration is going to use its leverage to get all telephone equipment vendors to adopt a voice encryption standard developed by the national security agency the so called clipper chip is an bit split key escrowed encryption scheme which will be built into chips manufactured by a military contractor two separate escrow agents would store users keys and be required to turn them over law enforcement upon presentation of a valid warrant the encryption scheme used is to be classified but they chips will be available to any manufacturer for incorporation into their communications products this proposal raises a number of serious concerns first the administration appears to be adopting a solution before conducting an inquiry the nsa developed clipper chip may not be the most secure product other vendors or developers may have better schemes furthermore we should not rely on the government as the sole source for clipper or any other chips rather independent chip manufacturers should be able to produce chipsets based on open standards second an algorithm can not be trusted unless it can be tested yet the administration proposes to keep the chip algorithm classified eff believes that any standard adopted ought to be public and open the public will only have confidence in the security of a standard that is open to independent expert scrutiny third while the use of the split key dual escrowed system may prove to be a reasonable balance between privacy and law enforcement needs the details of this scheme must be explored publicly before it is adopted what will give people confidence in the safety of their keys does disclosure of keys to a third party waive individual s fifth amendment rights in subsequent criminal inquiries in sum the administration has shown great sensitivity to the importance of these issues by planning a comprehensive inquiry into digital privacy and security however the clipper chip solution ought to be considered as part of the inquiry not be adopted before the discussion even begins details of the proposal escrow the bit key will be divided between two escrow agents each of whom hold bits of each key upon presentation of a valid warrant the two escrow agents would have to turn the key parts over to law enforcement agents most likely the attorney general will be asked to identify appropriate escrow agents some in the administration have suggested one non law enforcement federal agency perhaps the federal reserve and one non governmental organization but there is no agreement on the identity of the agents yet key registration would be done by the manufacturer of the communications device a key is tied to the device not to the person using it classified algorithm and the possibility of back doors the administration claims that there are no back door means by which the government or others could break the code without securing keys from the escrow agents and that the president will be told there are no back doors to this classified algorithm in order to prove this administration sources are interested in arranging for an all star crypto cracker team to come in under a security arrangement and examine the algorithm for trap doors the results of the investigation would then be made public government as market driver in order to get a market moving and to show that the government believes in the security of this system the feds will be the first big customers for this product users will include the fbi secret service vp al gore and maybe even the president from more information contact jerry berman executive director daniel j weitzner senior staff counsel carl kadie i do not represent any organization this is just me kadie cs uiuc edu
sci.crypt	re clipper crypto i sent a response to the white house at mcimail com white house and received a nice automatic reply from micmail noting in passing that if i had included a snail address i would get a reply in due course for those who care my reply was yes let s protect the voice network privately developed crypto has always been available and always will be so let s think about how to do law enforcement given that fact not about how to hope to legislate against it my needs for crypto as a system designer are not met by the clipper chip i want freely to export uses of algorithms like des rsa which are already freely available in the destination country disclaimer all opinions expressed are my own of course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough ma fax
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow though some may argue about the nose of the camel it s worth noting that the government proposal is limited to scrambled telephony if it is only used for that purpose and does not extend to electronic mail or file encryption then it is an improvement over the current mass produced standard civilian technology which with a few exceptions is limited to easy to break inverters note that the big issue for the feds is the continued ability to wiretap before we go off the deep end with long discusions about secure crypto for e mail and files let s focus on this one question that was not asked in the release is whether this proposal is limited to telephony or if the government intends to expand it though i share many of the concerns expressed by some i find the proposal less threatening than many others since right now most americans have no secure telephony and any jerk with a pair of clip leads and a goat can eavesdrop this would also plug up the security hole in cellular and cordless phones reading between the lines i infer that the system is highly secure without access to the keys this would meet the needs of u s businesses confronted by rich and powerful adversaries including french and japanese security services and rich japanese companies it allows the nsa to make available some of its better stuff while protecting law enforcement needs most legitimate u s corporations trust the nsa and would be delighted to have a high security system certified by them even at the price of depositing keys in escrow i see no difficulty in creating a reliable escrow corporations entrust their secrets to attorneys every day of the week and that system has worked pretty well from my point of view this is a fair starting point there are concerns that need to be addressed including the reliability of the escrows but in return we get access to high security crypto many have suggested that des and other systems may be breakable by the nsa and hence others similarly skilled and endowed there is at least a good possibility which should be checked that the proposed system is not so breakable it doesn t have to be nor does it have to have trapdoors if the government can get the keys pursuant to a legitimate court order thus they can protect legitimate communications against economic adversaries while still being able to eavesdrop on crooks pursuant to a court order in discussing this let s try to avoid the nastiness personal attacks and noise of some previous threads this is a substantive and technical issue and personal remarks have no place in such a discussion david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re re inventing crypto policy an eff statement in article apr eff org danny weitzner djw eff org writes the bit key will be divided between two escrow agents each of whom hold bits of each key presumably the key split is so that no one group controls the privacy of the key and that it would be infeasible to illicitly gain access from both agents however if one agent wishes to break the crypto without the cooperation of the other agent a bit key is not going to stand in the way of a brute force attack if an agency for example the nsa were to hold one of the two key halves then i don t imagine they really need the other half of the key to start listening in or was that the point grin this is not to imply at all that i like the idea of the rest of the system lee brintle and so i leave you with this final word director project panda twang
sci.crypt	how to detect use of an illegal cipher how can the government tell which encryption method one is using without being able to decode the traffic i e in order to accuse me of using an unauthorized strong encryption technique they would have to take both keys out of escrow run them against my ciphertext and draw a blank i can imagine the ciphertext exhibiting certain statistical characteristics that might give a clue as to the encryption technique used but not enough to give a handle for diferential cryptoanalysis however superencipherment or some other scheme that shapes the percieved properties of my ciphertext could thwart this
sci.crypt	re another data hiding scheme in article apr colorado edu bear tigger cs colorado edu writes since the price of m floppies were still high until the last few years if you store old data with old file times in the public filesystem the casual observer may miss the hd especially if you accidently cover it with something bear giles bear cs colorado edu fsl noaa gov it has been done already in the uk the atari st box was shipped with k disks in the first few years and then later k disks in order to make life less complicated many freebie disks on mags were double formatted like this side of the disk had k on it and could be read by any st it also had a flip side program this would swap the sides around so that side became side mike mike avon demon co uk
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption in article qmugcinnpu gap caltech edu hal cco caltech edu hal finney writes the key question is whether non clipper encryption will be made illegal the administration is not saying since encryption threatens the public safety and effective law enforcement we will prohibit it outright as some countries have effectively done nor is the u s saying that every does anyone know what countries are these american as a matter of right is entitled to an unbreakable commercial encryption product there is a false tension created in the assessment that this issue is an either or proposition rather both concerns can be and in fact are harmoniously balanced through a reasoned balanced approach such as is proposed with the clipper chip and similar encryption techniques the clear middle ground implied by these statements is to say that americans have the right to clipper encryption but not to unbreakable encryption this implies that ultimately non clipper strong encryption must become illegal with the following logical consequences a using any code designed to obscure informatio which is not easily breakable will be illegal including i using code words such as project p ii speaking a language other than english iii ever refering implicitly to events not known to everyone eg hi john how was last night for all the listener knows this may be a code for did you pick up the drugs ok last night of be a code for ok we blow up the pentagon at midnight iv mentioning anything that could not be perfectly understood by an average person with no education v words with more than one syllable vi speaking with a heavy accent that could bemisunderstood by people not used to it vii books with an inner meaning such as animal farm as an aside isn t the language here jarring all this talk about harmonious balance when they re talking about taking away people s right to communications privacy yes it looks like the worst nightmares raised by dorothy denning s proposals are coming true if the government continues on this course i imagine that we will see strong cryptography made illegal encryption programs for disk files and email as well as software to allow for encrypted voice communications will be distributed only through the underground people will have to learn how to hide the fact that they are protecting their privacy i have a wonderful encrypter you can borrow that converts a message eg meet me at to bomb the white house bring some dynamite to an apparently relatively innoculous message this message here is an example of the output for the above message it s shocking and frightening to see that this is actually happening here it is shockiong that it could happen anywhere it is shocking that it could happen in a country that has the arrogance to call itself free what you can do write to your congress person in plain text write to your congress person in encrypted text decrypter optional send some random keystroked to your congressperson send some random keystrokes accross the us boundaries and keep the spooks busy trying to decode it write your own encryption algorithms don t buy clipper products p s i can t work out why the us government doesn t want to sell them overseas after all they are rather easy for us interests to decode so make a perfect tool for industrial military espionage lulling anyone stupid enough to buy it into a false sense of security you will notice that there is no mention anywhere about safety for non americans disclaimer my opinions are mine alone and do not represent anyone elses i have nothing that i particularly want to hide at the moment though i consider the right to be able to use whatever method of coding data i like to be high on my list of priorities andrew conway arc leland stanford edu phone usa
sci.crypt	re pgp pem and rfc s was cryptography patents in article apr natasha portal com bob natasha portal com bob cain writes check your facts first and grow up why is there such a strong correlation between interest in cryptography and immaturity i wonder hmmm check your facts good advice let s check mr cain s facts a bit shall we charles kincy ckincy cs umr edu wrote some limitation let me guess don t use the code in any way pkp or rsa doesn t like such as providing secure communications for the average citizen that was exactly its purpose if you know anything about it there is nothing at all preventing the average citizen using it only selling it fact it is unlawful to distribute code implementing rsa without a license to do so from pkp whether or not one is charging for it furthermore any use of rsa other than for research purposes allowed under us patent law is similarly unlawful therefore the average citizen cannot use rsa to encrypt message traffic in the us without a license from pkp there is no licensed freely available product in the us that uses rsa encryption other than rsaref and hence ripem at least as far as i am aware if you know of another please post it here all i have to say is yeah right if you re willing to pay them mucho big bucks and or use the routines they tell you to do doesn t sound very reasonable to me all i have to say is this is full of shit i have negotiated a license and the bucks are incredibly reasonable with an upfront charge on a sliding scale depending on your capitalization if you are a startup and can t afford it you can t afford to start up in the first place why do people insist on making unequivocal statements about that which they know nothing fact the last contact i had with rsa data security inc was with some guy trying to sell me a license unsolicited i might add for tipem cost k plus percent royalties i suppose it is a matter of opinion as to whether or not these terms count as mucho bucks or incredibly reasonable either way however this definitely falls into the routines they tell you to use but i don t guess pkp and rsa are interested in big bucks maybe they have some other agenda secure communications only for government agents perhaps have you considered treatment for paranoia the government is the single biggest thorn in rsa s side fact there are no restrictions yet on the use of cryptography under us law although this is beginning to look like it will change the only impediments to widespread use of rsa cryptography in the us are pkp s patents mr cain please shut up until you get your facts straight better than the whole world be destroyed and crumble to dust than a free man deny one of his desires benito mussolini italian anarchist and poet jack eifrig eifrig cs jhu edu the johns hopkins university c s dept
sci.crypt	re re inventing crypto policy an eff statement in article apr eff org danny weitzner djw eff org writes the bit key will be divided between two escrow agents each of whom hold bits of each key i somehow started to doubt technical competence of the people who designed the system why on the earth split the bit key in bit parts to keep them in escrow separately having bit and large volumes of data voice links produce it should be relatively easy to break it when they simply could keep bit sequences in n n independent places and then xor all the partial keys to get the actual key n sequences should obviously be selected randomly and nth is the actual key xor ed with the random sequences or is it a conspiracy vadim
sci.crypt	re keeping your mouth shut was hard drive security in article c k ce a sunfish usd edu vkub charlie usd edu vince kub writes now the original scheme as suggested here would be to have the key disappear if certain threatening conditions are met once the key is gone there is no question of contempt of court as there is nothing to compell the key is no longer there to be produced getting rid of the keys is actually pretty easy to do automatically on a communications link as opposed to storage where the keys have to be retained somehow as long as the owner wants to be able to retrieve the data the right way to do communications security is to generate a random session key with diffie hellman use it for a while and then destroy it once it s gone there s no getting it back and no way to decrypt recordings of the conversation to make sure you aren t being attacked by a man in the middle you have to authenticate your dh exchanges the at t secure phone does this by displaying the dh key so you can compare them verbally over the phone this is nice and simple but it relies on user awareness plus the inability of the man in the middle to duplicate the users voices a better way is to authenticate the exchanges with rsa since you d never use rsa for actual encryption compromising your rsa secret key would only allow someone to impersonate you in a future conversation and even that only until you revoke your public key they would still not be able to decrypt recordings of prior conversations for which the session keys have been destroyed i m convinced that this is how the government s own secure phones the stu iii must work neat eh phil
sci.crypt	the old key registration idea okay let s suppose that the nsa nist mykotronix registered key system becomes standard and i m able to buy such a system from my local radio shack every phone comes with a built in chip and the government has the key to every phone call i go and buy a phone and dutifully register the key what s to prevent me from swapping phones with a friend or buying a used phone at a garage sale whooa the secret registered keys just became unsynchronized when the government comes to listen in they only receive gobbledly gook because the secret key registered under my name isn t the right one that leads me to conjecture that the system isn t that secure there are just two master keys that work for all the phones in the country the part about registering your keys is just bogus or the system is vulnerable to simple phone swapping attacks like this criminals will quickly figure this out and go to town in either case i think we need to look at this a bit deeper jbl mw wxld
sci.crypt	re white house public encryption management fact sheet clipper csrc ncsl nist gov clipper chip announcement writes the president has approved a directive on public encryption management the directive provides for the following when exported abroad it can be used to thwart foreign intelligence activities critical to our national interests the attorney general of the united states or her representative shall request manufacturers of communications hardware which incorporates encryption to install the u s government developed key escrow microcircuits in their products quite interesting how does the us administration intend to persuade non us governments to let the nsa eavesdrop on them or should u s companies install these chips in communication systems sold abroad without the customer s knowedge or consent or not at all thomas koenig ig rz uni karlsruhe de ig dkauni bitnet the joy of engineering is to find a straight line on a double logarithmic diagram
sci.crypt	re how to detect use of an illegal cipher jay fenton fenton kaleida com writes how can the government tell which encryption method one is using without being able to decode the traffic i e in order to accuse me of using an unauthorized strong encryption technique they would have to take both keys out of escrow run them against my ciphertext and draw a blank i was thinking about this also it s quite possible the system transmits in clear the serial number of the device being used that way they can start a tap get the serial number and use the warrant for the first tap to get the key if they tap someone who s apparently using encryption but don t find that prefix then they ll assume it s an un authorized encryption scheme may the kloo gnomes be generous to you robert crawford betel camelot bradley edu
sci.crypt	more clipper stuff as of yet there has been no description of the general principles behind the clipper proposal for example is this a public key system or a private key system if the latter then i don t see how the system could work given that the keys are tied to the device and not the person further the escrowed bit keys are split into two bit chunks i would guess that the availability of one of these bit chunks and a reasonable key search machine would allow you to read the traffic i m not suggesting that this is a deliberate weakness of the system but it does make you think of course this is easily fixable by giving out two bit chunks which could be x ored to generate the real bit key philip
sci.crypt	re white house public encryption management fact sheet in article c lgaz dove nist gov clipper csrc ncsl nist gov clipper chip announcement writes procurement and use of encryption devices the attorney general will procure and utilize encryption devices to the extent needed to preserve the government s ability to conduct lawful electronic surveillance and to fulfill the need for secure law enforcement communications further the attorney general shall utilize funds from the department of justice asset forfeiture super surplus fund to effect this purchase talk about adding insult to injury i for one believe that the use of civil forfeiture should be abolished by a decent administration not continued instead it looks like that ill gotten gain will be used to help pay for wiretap equipment disclaimer all opinions expressed are my own of course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough ma fax
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption in article c l t gci dove nist gov clipper csrc ncsl nist gov clipper chip announcement writes q suppose a law enforcement agency is conducting a wiretap on a drug smuggling ring and intercepts a conversation etc great nice choice of bad guys to convince everyone how bad unrestricted encryption is why not use a child molester instead of course the word suspect is never used here so i guess these people have already been convicted and are operating this drug ring from their jail cells how about this question instead q suppose a law enforcement agency is conducting a wiretap on a political opponent of a senior administration official and intercepts a conversation kinda changes your interpretation of the event doesn t it and yes the presence of the clipper chip does change things because it will not only give the people talking on the phone a false sense of security it will also give federal law enforcement agencies the justification to deny use of strong encryption methods that are inconvenient to them dang it all it s supposed to be inconvenient but not impossible that s the only sure way to make sure that abuses are minimized while still allowing legitimate law enforcement access q how strong is the security in the device how can i be sure how strong the security is a this system is more secure than many other voice encryption systems readily available today while the algorithm will remain classified to protect the security of the key escrow system we are willing to invite an independent panel of cryptography experts to evaluate the algorithm to assure all potential users that there are no unrecognized vulnerabilities uh huh sure i predict that within two months weeks of the chip s debut the full technical details will be posted to sci crypt and if this has any impact on the security of the key escrow system then we ve been lied to any cryptosystem worth its salt can withstand the light of public scrutiny and there is no way you can be sure that an algorithm has no unrecognized vulnerabilities unless you have half the world trying to break it for a decade or so even then you gotta be careful michael t palmer a man is crazy who writes a secret in any m t palmer larc nasa gov other way than one which will conceal it ripem key on server from the vulgar roger bacon
sci.crypt	re re inventing crypto policy an eff statement in article qna tinnf p rodan uu net avg rodan uu net vadim antonov writes i somehow started to doubt technical competence of the people who designed the system why on the earth split the bit key in bit parts to keep them in escrow separately having bit and large volumes of data voice links produce it should be relatively easy to break it when they simply could keep bit sequences in n n independent places and then xor all the partial keys to get the actual key n sequences should obviously be selected randomly and nth is the actual key xor ed with the random sequences without real technical details it s hard to answer this question but suppose they already are xoring the two bit parts to produce only bits of real key material maybe they re using the exportable version of rc phil
sci.crypt	text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption in article c l a gf dove nist gov clipper csrc ncsl nist gov clipper chip announcement writes here is an article i found today in comp security misc i ll send my reply in a separate post to comp off eff org so thayt you guys can get original text have fun oleg relay version vms news v b vax vms v site nic csu net path nic csu net csus edu netcom com netcomsv decwrl uunet dove csrc ncsl nist gov clipper newsgroups comp security misc from clipper csrc ncsl nist gov clipper chip announcement date fri apr gmt sender news dove nist gov distribution na organization national institute of standards technology lines note this file will also be available via anonymous file transfer from csrc ncsl nist gov in directory pub nistnews and via the nist computer security bbs at the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april statement by the press secretary the president today announced a new initiative that will bring the federal government together with industry in a voluntary program to improve the security and privacy of telephone communications while meeting the legitimate needs of law enforcement the initiative will involve the creation of new products to accelerate the development and use of advanced and secure telecommunications networks and wireless communications links for too long there has been little or no dialogue between our private sector and the law enforcement community to resolve the tension between economic vitality and the real challenges of protecting americans rather than use technology to accommodate the sometimes competing interests of economic growth privacy and law enforcement previous policies have pitted government against industry and the rights of privacy against law enforcement sophisticated encryption technology has been used for years to protect electronic funds transfer it is now being used to protect electronic mail and computer files while encryption technology can help americans protect business secrets and the unauthorized release of personal information it also can be used by terrorists drug dealers and other criminals a state of the art microcircuit called the clipper chip has been developed by government engineers the chip represents a new approach to encryption technology it can be used in new relatively inexpensive encryption devices that can be attached to an ordinary telephone it scrambles telephone communications using an encryption algorithm that is more powerful than many in commercial use today this new technology will help companies protect proprietary information protect the privacy of personal phone conversations and prevent unauthorized release of data transmitted electronically at the same time this technology preserves the ability of federal state and local law enforcement agencies to intercept lawfully the phone conversations of criminals a key escrow system will be established to ensure that the clipper chip is used to protect the privacy of law abiding americans each device containing the chip will have two unique keys numbers that will be needed by authorized government agencies to decode messages encoded by the device when the device is manufactured the two keys will be deposited separately in two key escrow data bases that will be established by the attorney general access to these keys will be limited to government officials with legal authorization to conduct a wiretap the clipper chip technology provides law enforcement with no new authorities to access the content of the private conversations of americans to demonstrate the effectiveness of this new technology the attorney general will soon purchase several thousand of the new devices in addition respected experts from outside the government will be offered access to the confidential details of the algorithm to assess its capabilities and publicly report their findings the chip is an important step in addressing the problem of encryption s dual edge sword encryption helps to protect the privacy of individuals and industry but it also can shield criminals and terrorists we need the clipper chip and other approaches that can both provide law abiding citizens with access to the encryption they need and prevent criminals from using it to hide their illegal activities in order to assess technology trends and explore new approaches like the key escrow system the president has directed government agencies to develop a comprehensive policy on encryption that accommodates the privacy of our citizens including the need to employ voice or data encryption for business purposes the ability of authorized officials to access telephone calls and data under proper court or other legal order when necessary to protect our citizens the effective and timely use of the most modern technology to build the national information infrastructure needed to promote economic growth and the competitiveness of american industry in the global marketplace and the need of u s companies to manufacture and export high technology products the president has directed early and frequent consultations with affected industries the congress and groups that advocate the privacy rights of individuals as policy options are developed the administration is committed to working with the private sector to spur the development of a national information infrastructure which will use new telecommunications and computer technologies to give americans unprecedented access to information this infrastructure of high speed networks information superhighways will transmit video images hdtv programming and huge data files as easily as today s telephone system transmits voice since encryption technology will play an increasingly important role in that infrastructure the federal government must act quickly to develop consistent comprehensive policies regarding its use the administration is committed to policies that protect all americans right to privacy while also protecting them from those who break the law further information is provided in an accompanying fact sheet the provisions of the president s directive to acquire the new encryption technology are also available for additional details call mat heyman national institute of standards and technology questions and answers about the clinton administration s telecommunications initiative q does this approach expand the authority of government agencies to listen in on phone conversations a no clipper chip technology provides law enforcement with no new authorities to access the content of the private conversations of americans q suppose a law enforcement agency is conducting a wiretap on a drug smuggling ring and intercepts a conversation encrypted using the device what would they have to do to decipher the message a they would have to obtain legal authorization normally a court order to do the wiretap in the first place they would then present documentation of this authorization to the two entities responsible for safeguarding the keys and obtain the keys for the device being used by the drug smugglers the key is split into two parts which are stored separately in order to ensure the security of the key escrow system q who will run the key escrow data banks a the two key escrow data banks will be run by two independent entities at this point the department of justice and the administration have yet to determine which agencies will oversee the key escrow data banks q how strong is the security in the device how can i be sure how strong the security is a this system is more secure than many other voice encryption systems readily available today while the algorithm will remain classified to protect the security of the key escrow system we are willing to invite an independent panel of cryptography experts to evaluate the algorithm to assure all potential users that there are no unrecognized vulnerabilities q whose decision was it to propose this product a the national security council the justice department the commerce department and other key agencies were involved in this decision this approach has been endorsed by the president the vice president and appropriate cabinet officials q who was consulted the congress industry a we have on going discussions with congress and industry on encryption issues and expect those discussions to intensify as we carry out our review of encryption policy we have briefed members of congress and industry leaders on the decisions related to this initiative q will the government provide the hardware to manufacturers a the government designed and developed the key access encryption microcircuits but it is not providing the microcircuits to product manufacturers product manufacturers can acquire the microcircuits from the chip manufacturer that produces them q who provides the clipper chip a mykotronx programs it at their facility in torrance california and will sell the chip to encryption device manufacturers the programming function could be licensed to other vendors in the future q how do i buy one of these encryption devices a we expect several manufacturers to consider incorporating the clipper chip into their devices q if the administration were unable to find a technological solution like the one proposed would the administration be willing to use legal remedies to restrict access to more powerful encryption devices a this is a fundamental policy question which will be considered during the broad policy review the key escrow mechanism will provide americans with an encryption product that is more secure more convenient and less expensive than others readily available today but it is just one piece of what must be the comprehensive approach to encryption technology which the administration is developing the administration is not saying since encryption threatens the public safety and effective law enforcement we will prohibit it outright as some countries have effectively done nor is the u s saying that every american as a matter of right is entitled to an unbreakable commercial encryption product there is a false tension created in the assessment that this issue is an either or proposition rather both concerns can be and in fact are harmoniously balanced through a reasoned balanced approach such as is proposed with the clipper chip and similar encryption techniques q what does this decision indicate about how the clinton administration s policy toward encryption will differ from that of the bush administration a it indicates that we understand the importance of encryption technology in telecommunications and computing and are committed to working with industry and public interest groups to find innovative ways to protect americans privacy help businesses to compete and ensure that law enforcement agencies have the tools they need to fight crime and terrorism q will the devices be exportable will other devices that use the government hardware a voice encryption devices are subject to export control requirements case by case review for each export is required to ensure appropriate use of these devices the same is true for other encryption devices one of the attractions of this technology is the protection it can give to u s companies operating at home and abroad with this in mind we expect export licenses will be granted on a case by case basis for u s companies seeking to use these devices to secure their own communications abroad we plan to review the possibility of permitting wider exportability of these products
sci.crypt	how do they know what keys to ask for re clipper this may be a stupid question but how does the government know which keys to ask for will owners be required to register their phones faxes modems etc and inform the government when they are moved to a different phone number will there be penalities if the public does not do this will identification the national health care id perhaps be required when purchasing a clipper equipted phone or will each chip transmit identifying information at the start of a conversation identification which could be used to automatically log who calls whom the phone company keeps records but this information would be accessable by a well placed van near a microwave relay station this raises the question of how the two phones agree on a communications encryption key will it be something that is derived from information exchanged at the start of the conversation and hence derivable by an eavesdropper bear giles bear fsl noaa gov
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption the stragegy of the government is interesting the real fear comes from them doing more than this this is a voluntary program and thus harder for us to object to on the surface their strategy is a business one rather than legal one they are pushing to get a standard in place a secret standard and if they get it as a standard then they will drive competitors out of the market it will be legal to sell better untapable encryption that doesn t have registered keys but it will be difficult and thus not a plan for most phone companies you see with clipper chip phones you ll be able to talk to any cellular company or other phones or ports because they will follow the standard at t has already announced a clipper chip encryption product the government has marketed hard to get major vendors to use these chips if they get enough market share they will rule and thus there will be very little market for systems that can t be tapped by the police the public isn t that concerned about it now after all they freely do calls that anybody with an old tv can listen to today they won t pay big extra bucks for proprietary phones that secure them only from the police well some people will buy these phones but they will only work with other proprietary phones so the market will be small and the phones expensive unless they are made in numbers large enough to sell them cheap only the mob will buy them and this means that the fbi will want to track the customer lists of better encryption phones because the only reason a person would want one is to evade the police interesting brad templeton clarinet communications corp sunnyvale ca
sci.crypt	re illegal wiretaps was in article uupcb ssr com dick zeitlin acc bbs ssr com dick zeitlin wrote pk perhaps we need the telephony equivalent of an anonymous remailer for the telephone network back in prohibition days alcohol that is i understand a device called the cheesebox was a popular means to thwart the tracing of telephone calls it connected two phone lines in the back room of an otherwise uninvolved business it was the conceptual predecesso of today s anonymous email remailer the old cheesebox was the pre carterphone version of the call diverter after the carterphone decision there were several vendors that sold call diverters i ve got a couple in my basement that were used to redirect my office phone to my home number when i didn t feel like going into the office it d be quite easy to generate an anonymous redialer version of the call diverter about months ago i heard a report on npr about a number sto pper or some such for placing untraceable calls you call them and on bong tone dial the number you want to call they told the npr interviewer that nothing short of a court order which they d fight would make them release their records matt healy i pretend to be a network administrator the lab net pretends to work matt wardsgi med yale edu
sci.crypt	an open letter to mr clinton i m quite astonished shocked and appalled at this serious frontal assault on emerging american freedoms the clinton administration nor any other government agency has any legitimate role whatsoever in regulating cryptography to do so is tantamount to regulating acceptable speech and is blatantly unconstitutional perhaps we should rename this year in honor of such an illustrious proposal let the crappy chip live in infamy and the adminstration receive great shame and discredit for this bizarre misadventure i am outraged that my tax money is being used to develop technology to restrict my freedoms far beyond reasonable measures the u s government will have my full uncooperation and disobedience on any serious threat to my liberties such as this and i call on everyone with an interest in a sensible government to resist and defy this proposal the administration does not seem to understand that they are merely a subservient instrument to implement the will of the public and hence anyone involved in this proposal in this respect is wholly negligent and remiss in performing their lawful duty while encryption technology can help americans protect business secrets and the unauthorized release of personal information it also can be used by terrorists drug dealers and other criminals it seems to me that u s diplomatic communications should be tappable by the u n whenever any countries produce a warrant to the u n in fact i think we should stop paying the nsa billions of dollars a year to produce unbreakable codes for this reason these actions violate the sovereignity of international law i hope mr clinton is shrewd enough to recognize my sarcasm and satire here but if he isn t it s a modest and reasonable proposal so he should find merit with it nevertheless cryptography is neutral technology if everybody has strong cryptography including policemen bureacrats businessmen housewives thugs and hoodlums we have a sustainable equilibrium anything less is an unworkable anti egaltarian arrangement intrinsically antithetical to american freedoms and guaranteed to collapse under its own weight of inherent impracticality we don t need to compromise on issues of freedom for too long there has been little or no dialogue between our private sector and the law enforcement community to resolve the tension between economic vitality and the real challenges of protecting americans for too long our government has demonstrated itself to be increasingly hostile and a serious obstacle to economic vitality and protecting americans since encryption technology will play an increasingly important role in that infrastructure the federal government must act quickly to develop consistent comprehensive policies regarding its use the administration is committed to policies that protect all americans right to privacy while also protecting them from those who break the law it is not possible for the federal government to act quickly or develop consistent comprehensive policies period and even if by some grandiose miracle such a thing were possible it would only be an efficient way to deprive american citizens of fundamental and inalienable rights the administration has to be committed to leaving private industries alone esp on this issue the government has no legitimate role in regulating the content of communications law enforcement agencies must be prepared to forfeit their surveillance bludgeon they are soon and inevitably to be disarmed of it q if the administration were unable to find a technological solution like the one proposed would the administration be willing to use legal remedies to restrict access to more powerful encryption devices no such laws can be constitutionally sound and this is equivalent to a veiled threat which i don t appreciate this kind of extortion tends to agitate me and others into radicalism i will trade threats for threats and violation for violation the administration is not saying since encryption threatens the public safety and effective law enforcement we will prohibit it outright as some countries have effectively done if the administration did say this it would find itself impeached for reckless and outrageous disregard of essential established entrenched and explicit constitutional privacy guarantees the administration would have no legal standing whatsoever such an action would be egregiously illegal and criminal and wholly untolerated and disregarded by vast segments of the population nor is the u s saying that every american as a matter of right is entitled to an unbreakable commercial encryption product the u s comprised of a vast majority of people fanatically committed to preserving their privacy in the face of an increasingly totalitarian government is saying just that take your chips and give them to nsa employees as christmas bonuses we can run any algorithm on our computers we damn well please and we will make any chips we please and we will send any bit pattern over our data highways we please and if you try to stop us you will be gradually or abruptly dissolved into nothingness privacy vs law enforcement there is a false tension created in the assessment that this issue is an either or proposition this is an outright dingaling denning lie the two aims of privacy and surveillance are intrinsically and fundamentally incompatible and you have to work for the nsa to think otherwise americans are about to discover ways through the use of technology to preserve their inalienable but forgotten freedoms that have slowly been eroded away by an increasingly distant and unresponsive and unrepresentative government ld longs lance colostate edu
sci.crypt	clipper an infringement on intergraph s name besides being an infringement on our civil liberties not the subject in this post the name clipper chip seems very confusable with the clipper chip of intergraph originally designed by a team at fairchild semiconductor clipper was a bit risc microprocessor it is still used in some workstations notably those from intergraph the supplier of cad tools intergraph acquired the clipper product line when fairchild was sold to national semiconductor several years back when i first saw clipper chip in the announcement i immediately thought the article was referring to the clipper chip i know this seems to be grounds for intergraph to sue but then i m not a lawyer i d say i m a cryptologist but i don t want to incriminate myself under the laws of the new regime tim may timothy c may crypto anarchy encryption digital money tcmay netcom com anonymous networks digital pseudonyms zero knowledge reputations information markets w a s t e aptos ca black markets collapse of governments higher power public key pgp and mailsafe available
sci.crypt	re patents was rc rc in article bontchev fbihh bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de vesselin bontchev wrote ahaley eoe co uk andrew haley writes coca cola has always understood it coca cola is made under licence in dozens of countries around the world you re crazy if you think pepsico doesn t know the recipe in all those countries coca cola is distributed in a form of concentrate what the local producers simply mix with water and other simple ingredients the trick is to know what is in the concentrate i don t know if this is still true but at one time coca cola took elaborate measures to keep the formula secret for instance several plants in different cities each made one of six partial concentrates which were then shipped back and forth and remixed in a complicated scheme so that no single plant made the whole formula by now i would guess that pepsico s chemists would have reverse engineered it can t be all that exotic actually i prefer pepsi anyhow in about minutes i m gonna put money into a pepsi vending machine matt healy i pretend to be a network administrator the lab net pretends to work matt wardsgi med yale edu
sci.crypt	re the old key registration idea the clipper chip will have no effect current generation pcs portable and desktop all have analog voice digital voice and vice versa capabilities so i only need a modem output to the telephone and i can interpose any encryption screen on my voice traffic i want not even a big deal but it will pass muster if the have a way of checking whether i am using their clipper chip encryption without a full decoding i have been chided for stating that dorthy denning was intellectually dishonest in the acm debate and in this newsgroup i have previously refrained from suggesting that she is arguing on behalf of consulting clients now i say that it is clear that dorthy denning has been functioning as a lobbyist not a computer scientist she has used legal ethics truth is what you can convince anyone of not scientific ethics truth is understanding the external world maybe we can revoke her acm membership lew lew glendenning rlglende netcom com perspective is worth iq points niels bohr or somebody like that
sci.crypt	re how to detect use of an illegal cipher how can the government tell which encryption method one is using without being able to decode the traffic i e in order to accuse me of using an unauthorized strong encryption technique they would have to take both keys out of escrow run them against my ciphertext and draw a blank i was thinking about this also it s quite possible the system transmits in clear the serial number of the device being used that way they can start a tap get the serial number and use the warrant for the first tap to get the key if they tap someone who s apparently using encryption but don t find that prefix then they ll assume it s an un authorized encryption scheme this doesn t handle superencrypted traffic if the clipper doesn t impose any unfortunate performance side effects there s no reason not to use it to superencrypt a stream of triple des encrypted traffic that way your traffic looks normal and perhaps anyone desiring to listen in won t even bother since they know nobody s going to really trust crypto that has classified internals for important stuff mjr
sci.crypt	re pgp pem and rfc s was cryptography patents in c lj t k blaze cs jhu edu eifrig beanworld cs jhu edu jonathan eifrig writes fact it is unlawful to distribute code implementing rsa without a license to do so from pkp whether or not one is charging for it furthermore any use of rsa other than for research purposes allowed under us patent law is similarly unlawful therefore the average citizen cannot use rsa to encrypt message traffic in the us without a license from pkp wrong i don t think even pkp claims this one it is not unlawful to distribute code implementing rsa it appears to be unlawful to use it so i agree with your last sentence fact there are no restrictions yet on the use of cryptography under us law although this is beginning to look like it will change the only impediments to widespread use of rsa cryptography in the us are pkp s patents yes that s correct arthur l rubin a rubin dsg dse beckman com work beckman instruments brea mcimail com compuserve com arthur pnet cts com personal my opinions are my own and do not represent those of my employer
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption stupid me i believed the democrats stood for principles of personal privacy while it was the neanderthal republicans that wanted into every aspect of our lives clinton is just more clever than the other guy looks like gun control for privacy technology one small step at a time wait a minute let me think about this hmmm i feel better now i believe the white house when they tell us this first step is in fact the final step all is ok we ve nothing to fear they re here to help us god bless america john hesse a man jhesse netcom com a plan moss beach calif a canal bob
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption brad clarinet com brad templeton writes and this means that the fbi will want to track the customer lists of better encryption phones because the only reason a person would want one is to evade the police then they ll probably also want to start tracking the customer lists of people purchasing soundblaster and similar boards which can be configured with the use of some code and a modem to act as a pretty decent digital encrypting telephone it s expensive though and kind of awkward i don t know any drug lords but i m sure they d favor something tappable over something secure as long as the user interface is nice when you ve got hrh prince of wales saying stupid things over cordless phones it s not hard to imagine that drug dealers child pornographers commies lisp programmers and other threats to the civilized world might transact incriminating business over encrypting cellular phones mjr
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow in article strnlghtc lgfi jqa netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes though i share many of the concerns expressed by some i find the proposal less threatening than many others since right now most americans have no secure telephony and any jerk with a pair of clip leads and a goat can eavesdrop this would also plug up the security hole in cellular and cordless phones oh great wonderful news nobody can listen in except the feds you believe that the feds offer the least threat to liberty of anyone and i m sure i do too glad that jerk won t be tapping my phone anymore john hesse a man jhesse netcom com a plan moss beach calif a canal bob
sci.crypt	re white house public encryption management fact sheet security of the key escrow system in making this decision i do not intend to prevent the private sector from developing or the government from approving other microcircuits or algorithms that are equally effective in assuring both privacy and a secure key escrow system yeah but does he intend to prevent the private sector from developing other applications that are equally effective in assuring privacy but do not have a key escrow system
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption in article qmugcinnpu gap caltech edu hal cco caltech edu hal finney writes the key question is whether non clipper encryption will be made illegal the administration is not saying since encryption threatens the public safety and effective law enforcement we will prohibit it outright as some countries have effectively done nor is the u s saying that every american as a matter of right is entitled to an unbreakable commercial encryption product there is a false tension created in the assessment that this issue is an either or proposition rather both concerns can be and in fact are harmoniously balanced through a reasoned balanced approach such as is proposed with the clipper chip and similar encryption techniques the clear middle ground implied by these statements is to say that americans have the right to clipper encryption but not to unbreakable encryption this implies that ultimately non clipper strong encryption must become illegal text deleted no value judgement implied it s shocking and frightening to see that this is actually happening here hal finney hal alumni caltech edu more than shocking what this says to me is no less than that government is very interested in monitoring the public this does more than scare me it mortifies me pgp and ripem must become widespread enough to resist what mr finney has imho correctly identified as the next logical step what was once an academic discussion with regard to concealing cyphertext has now become a real consideration the rhetoric that the clinton administration seems obsessed with harmony either or propositions tension tells me that they know how difficult it will be to sell this proposition the phrase i hear more and more is i can t believe this is actually happening here call me conserative clinton was a huge mistake that we ll all be paying for tommorow and many years from now have we approached the age of speakeasy public key depositiories uni dark uni acs bu edu public keys by finger and or request public key archives at pgp public keys junkbox cc iastate edu sovereignty is the sign of a brutal past
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption brad clarinet com brad templeton writes their strategy is a business one rather than legal one they are pushing to get a standard in place a secret standard and if they get it as a standard then they will drive competitors out of the market it will be legal to sell better untapable encryption that doesn t have registered keys but it will be difficult and thus not a plan for most phone companies if brad s analysis is correct it may offer an explanation for why the encryption algorithm is being kept secret this will prevent competitors from coming out with clipper compatible phones which lack the government installed back door the strategy brad describes will only work as long as the only way to get compatible phones is to have ones with the government chips it would be nice from the point of view of personal privacy if brad turns out to be right as long as people still have the power to provide their own encryption in place of or in addition to the clipper privacy is still possible but the wording of several passages in the announcement makes me doubt whether this will turn out to be true hal finney
sci.crypt	re the old key registration idea in article qn ic hp access digex net pcw access digex com peter wayner writes okay let s suppose that the nsa nist mykotronix registered key system becomes standard and i m able to buy such a system from my local radio shack every phone comes with a built in chip and the government has the key to every phone call i go and buy a phone and dutifully register the key what s to prevent me from swapping phones with a friend or buying a used phone at a garage sale whooa the secret registered keys just became unsynchronized when the government comes it s very possible even likely that the serial number of the invididual chip is broadcast either in a standard encrypted format so that all the big brother types need to do is listen to the traffic get a court order generally just by saying that they think you may be a crook and go to it r to listen in they only receive gobbledly gook because the secret key registered under my name isn t the right one that leads me to conjecture that the system isn t that secure there are just two master keys that work for all the phones in the country the part about registering your keys is just bogus or the system is vulnerable to simple phone swapping attacks like this criminals will quickly figure this out and go to town in either case i think we need to look at this a bit deeper jbl mw wxld
sci.crypt	why the algorithm is secret my thoughts on why the algorithm is secret the chip is regretably likely to become a standard there will be many applications where economic factors dictate use of this chip like it or not if the alrogithm is public and the code is as secure absent the access to escrowed keys as represented an enterprising sort would make compatible crypto chips for which no key had been escrowed this is likely what the release was refering to when they refered to the secrecy of the algorithm protecting the security of the escrow system rob boudrie
sci.crypt	issa conference if there is anyone attending the issa conference in arlington va next week i would appreciate them getting in touch with me bruce
sci.crypt	re how do they know what keys to ask for re clipper the actual algorithm is classified however their main thrust here is for cellular phones and encryption is only over the radio end not end to end i think end to end will come later and of course you have to identify yourself to the phone company and since the phone company complies with court orders they will know the magic number of your chip when they sign out a warrant on you and then can present the warrant to the key escrow house brad templeton clarinet communications corp sunnyvale ca
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption in article qnn b ddc sol tis com mjr tis com marcus j ranum writes when you ve got hrh prince of wales saying stupid things over cordless phones it s not hard to imagine that drug dealers child pornographers commies lisp programmers and other threats to the civilized world might transact incriminating business over encrypting cellular phones let s assume for the moment that the system really is secure unless you get both halves of the encryption key from the two independent escrow houses let s say you even trust the escrow houses one is the aclu and the other is the eff and i m not entirely joking about those two names in that case the prince of wales has nothing to worry about on this system indeed as pointed out since the current systems even the current digital systems are very easy to decode right now anybody with an old tv can hear them for most people this will be viewed as an oh goody step upwards and look at how tolerant the public is they re willing to let the neighbours with the radios hear right now it was suggested by one person that a lot of non evidentiary wiretapping is going on right now without warrants because anybody can do it and it s just an ecpa violation this would stop that all tapping would need a warrant or a breach of security at the escrow houses brad templeton clarinet communications corp sunnyvale ca
sci.crypt	once tapped your code is no good any more it occurs to me that if they get a wiretap order on you and the escrow houses release your code to the cops your code is now no longer secure it s in the hands of cops and while i am sure most of the time they are good their security will not be as good as the escrow houses what this effectively means is that if they perform a wiretap on you at the end of the wiretap they should be obligated to inform you that a tap was performed and replace for free the clipper chip in your cellular phone so that it is once again a code known only to the escrow houses do the police normally reveal every tap they do even if no charges are laid in many ways it would be a positive step if they had to judges set time limits on warrants i assume at the end of the time limit they should have to renew or replace your chip that s if we go with this scheme which i am not sure i agree with brad templeton clarinet communications corp sunnyvale ca
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow jhesse netcom com john hesse writes oh great wonderful news nobody can listen in except the feds hey it s better than the status quo i am far less worried about the feds tapping my phone than high school scanner surfers who get their kicks out of eavesdropping on cellular and cordless phone calls it would be stupid to rely on even a clipperized channel for truly sensitive material but it does seem to finally offer a reasonable way to guard against casual eavesdropping for example even with my strong right to bear arms view of the private right to possess and use strong cryptosystems the system as described provides enough security that i would actually buy a cordless phone and would be much less wary of using cellular phones walkie talkies and so on as long as it s only used for mass market voice scrambling i actually don t see a problem with it if you want more security than it offers use something different use pkcs for electronic mail celp over des or triple des with diffie hellman key exchange for your voice traffic or whatever and yes i d rather just see all crypto restrictions lifted but this is at least an incrememental improvement for certain applications amanda walker intercon systems corporation
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip in article bu edu uni acs bu edu shaen bernhardt writes more than shocking what this says to me is no less than that government is very interested in monitoring the public this does more than scare me it mortifies me if this is any surprise to you i m shocked amanda walker intercon systems corporation
sci.crypt	cryptography faq overview archive name cryptography faq part last modified faq for sci crypt part overview this is the first of ten parts of the sci crypt faq the parts are mostly independent but you should read this part before the rest we don t have the time to send out missing parts by mail so don t ask notes such as kah refer to the reference list in the last part disclaimer this document is the product of the crypt cabal a secret society which serves the national secu uh no seriously we re the good guys and we ve done what we can to ensure the completeness and accuracy of this document but in a field of military and commercial importance like cryptography you have to expect that some people and organizations consider their interests more important than open scientific discussion trust only what you can verify firsthand and don t sue us many people have contributed to this faq in alphabetical order eric bach steve bellovin dan bernstein nelson bolyard carl ellison jim gillogly mike gleason doug gwyn luke o connor tony patti william setzer we apologize for any omissions if you have suggestions comments or criticism please let the current editors know by sending e mail to crypt comments math ncsu edu we don t assume that this faq is at all complete at this point archives sci crypt has been archived since october on cl next cl msu edu though these archives are available only to u s and canadian users please contact crypt comments math ncsu edu if you know of other archives the sections of this faq are available via anonymous ftp to rtfm mit edu as pub usenet news answers cryptography faq part xx the cryptography faq is posted to the newsgroups sci crypt sci answers and news answers every days table of contents overview net etiquette what groups are around what s a faq who am i why am i here do political discussions belong in sci crypt how do i present a new encryption scheme in sci crypt basic cryptology what is cryptology cryptography plaintext ciphertext encryption key what references can i start with to learn cryptology how does one go about cryptanalysis what is a brute force search and what is its cryptographic relevance what are some properties satisfied by every strong cryptosystem if a cryptosystem is theoretically unbreakable then is it guaranteed analysis proof in practice why are many people still using cryptosystems that are relatively easy to break mathematical cryptology in mathematical terms what is a private key cryptosystem what is an attack what s the advantage of formulating all this mathematically why is the one time pad secure what s a ciphertext only attack what s a known plaintext attack what s a chosen plaintext attack in mathematical terms what can you say about brute force attacks what s a key guessing attack what s entropy product ciphers what is a product cipher what makes a product cipher secure what are some group theoretic properties of product ciphers what can be proven about the security of a product cipher how are block ciphers used to encrypt data longer than the block size can symmetric block ciphers be used for message authentication what exactly is des what is triple des what is differential cryptanalysis how was nsa involved in the design of des is des available in software is des available in hardware can des be used to protect classified information what are ecb cbc cfb and ofb encryption public key cryptography what is public key cryptography what s rsa is rsa secure how fast can people factor numbers what about other public key cryptosystems digital signatures and hash functions what is a one way hash function what is the difference between public private secret shared etc what are md and md what is snefru technical miscellany how do i recover from lost passwords in wordperfect how do i break a vigenere repeated key cipher how do i send encrypted mail under unix pgp ripem pem is the unix crypt command secure how do i use compression with encryption is there an unbreakable cipher what does random mean in cryptography what is the unicity point a k a unicity distance what is key management and why is it important can i use pseudo random or chaotic numbers as a key stream what is the correct frequency list for english letters what is the enigma how do i shuffle cards can i foil s w pirates by encrypting my cd rom can you do automatic cryptanalysis of simple ciphers what is the coding system used by vcr other miscellany what is the national security agency nsa what are the us export regulations what is tempest what are the beale ciphers and are they a hoax what is the american cryptogram association and how do i get in touch is rsa patented what about the voynich manuscript references books on history and classical methods books on modern methods survey articles reference articles journals conference proceedings other how may one obtain copies of fips and ansi standards cited herein electronic sources rfcs available from ftprf related newsgroups
sci.crypt	cryptography faq mathematical cryptology archive name cryptography faq part last modified faq for sci crypt part mathematical cryptology this is the fourth of ten parts of the sci crypt faq the parts are mostly independent but you should read the first part before the rest we don t have the time to send out missing parts by mail so don t ask notes such as kah refer to the reference list in the last part the sections of this faq are available via anonymous ftp to rtfm mit edu as pub usenet news answers cryptography faq part xx the cryptography faq is posted to the newsgroups sci crypt sci answers and news answers every days contents in mathematical terms what is a private key cryptosystem what is an attack what s the advantage of formulating all this mathematically why is the one time pad secure what s a ciphertext only attack what s a known plaintext attack what s a chosen plaintext attack in mathematical terms what can you say about brute force attacks what s a key guessing attack what s entropy in mathematical terms what is a private key cryptosystem a private key cryptosystem consists of an encryption system e and a decryption system d the encryption system e is a collection of functions e k indexed by keys k mapping some set of plaintexts p to some set of ciphertexts c similarly the decryption system d is a collection of functions d k such that d k e k p p for every plaintext p that is succesful decryption of ciphertext into plaintext is accomplished using the same key index as was used for the corresponding encryption of plaintext into ciphertext such systems wherein the same key value is used to encrypt and decrypt are also known as symmetric cryptoystems what is an attack in intuitive terms a passive attack on a cryptosystem is any method of starting with some information about plaintexts and their corresponding ciphertexts under some unknown key and figuring out more information about the plaintexts it s possible to state mathematically what this means here we go fix functions f g and h of n variables fix an encryption system e and fix a distribution of plaintexts and keys an attack on e using g assuming f giving h with probability p is an algorithm a with a pair f g of inputs and one output h such that there is probability p of computing h h p p n if we have f f p p n and g g e k p e k p n note that this probability depends on the distribution of the vector k p p n the attack is trivial or pointless if there is probability at least p of computing h h p p n if f f p p n and g g c c n here c c n range uniformly over the possible ciphertexts and have no particular relation to p p n in other words an attack is trivial if it doesn t actually use the encryptions e k p e k p n an attack is called one ciphertext if n two ciphertext if n and so on what s the advantage of formulating all this mathematically in basic cryptology you can never prove that a cryptosystem is secure read part we keep saying a strong cryptosystem must have this property but having this property is no guarantee that a cryptosystem is strong in contrast the purpose of mathematical cryptology is to precisely formulate and if possible prove the statement that a cryptosystem is strong we say for example that a cryptosystem is secure against all passive attacks if any nontrivial attack against the system as defined above is too slow to be practical if we can prove this statement then we have confidence that our cryptosystem will resist any passive cryptanalytic technique if we can reduce this statement to some well known unsolved problem then we still have confidence that the cryptosystem isn t easy to break other parts of cryptology are also amenable to mathematical definition again the point is to explicitly identify what assumptions we re making and prove that they produce the desired results we can figure out what it means for a particular cryptosystem to be used properly it just means that the assumptions are valid the same methodology is useful for cryptanalysis too the cryptanalyst can take advantage of incorrect assumptions often he can try to construct a proof of security for a system see where the proof fails and use these failures as the starting points for his analysis why is the one time pad secure by definition the one time pad is a cryptosystem where the plaintexts ciphertexts and keys are all strings say byte strings of some length m and e k p is just the sum let s say the exclusive or of k and p it is easy to prove mathematically that there are no nontrivial single ciphertext attacks on the one time pad assuming a uniform distribution of keys note that we don t have to assume a uniform distribution of plaintexts here s the proof let a be an attack i e an algorithm taking two inputs f g and producing one output h with some probability p that h h p whenever f f p and g g e k p i e g g k p then because the distribution of k is uniform and independent of p the distribution of k p must also be uniform and independent of p but also the distribution of c is uniform and independent of p hence there is probability exactly p that h h p whenever f f p and g g c over all p and c thus a fortiori a is trivial on the other hand the one time pad is not secure if a key k is used for more than one plaintext i e there are nontrivial multiple ciphertext attacks so to be properly used a key k must be thrown away after one encryption the key is also called a pad this explains the name one time pad what s a ciphertext only attack in the notation above a ciphertext only attack is one where f is constant given only some information g e k p e k p n about n ciphertexts the attack has to have some chance of producing some information h p p n about the plaintexts the attack is trivial if it has just as good a chance of producing h p p n when given g c c n for random c c n for example say g c c and say h p is the first bit of p we can easily write down an attack the guessing attack which simply guesses that h p is this attack is trivial because it doesn t use the ciphertext it has a fifty fifty chance of guessing correctly no matter what on the other hand there is an attack on rsa which produces one bit of information about p with success using c if it is fed a random c then the success rate drops to so this is a nontrivial attack what s a known plaintext attack the classic known plaintext attack has f p p p g c c c c and h p p depending only on p in other words given two ciphertexts c and c and one decryption p the known plaintext attack should produce information about the other decryption p note that known plaintext attacks are often defined in the literature as producing information about the key but this is pointless the cryptanalyst generally cares about the key only insofar as it lets him decrypt further messages what s a chosen plaintext attack a chosen plaintext attack is the first of an increasingly impractical series of active attacks on a cryptosystem attacks where the cryptanalyst feeds data to the encryptor these attacks don t fit into our model of passive attacks explained above anyway a chosen plaintext attack lets the cryptanalyst choose a plaintext and look at the corresponding ciphertext then repeat until he has figured out how to decrypt any message more absurd examples of this sort of attack are the chosen key attack and chosen system attack a much more important form of active attack is a message corruption attack where the attacker tries to change the ciphertext in such a way as to make a useful change in the plaintext there are many easy ways to throw kinks into all of these attacks for instance automatically encrypting any plaintext p as t e k h t r p r p where t is a time key sequence number chosen anew for each message r is a random number and h is a one way hash function here comma means concatenation and plus means exclusive or in mathematical terms what can you say about brute force attacks consider the following known plaintext attack we are given some plaintexts p p n and ciphertexts c c n we re also given a ciphertext c n we run through every key k when we find k such that e k p i c i for every i n we print d k c n if n is big enough that only one key works this attack will succeed on valid inputs all the time while it will produce correct results only once in a blue moon for random inputs thus this is a nontrivial attack its only problem is that it is very slow if there are many possible keys what s a key guessing attack what s entropy say somebody is using the one time pad but isn t choosing keys randomly and uniformly from all m bit messages as he was supposed to for our security proof in fact say he s known to prefer keys which are english words then a cryptanalyst can run through all english words as possible keys this attack will often succeed and it s much faster than a brute force search of the entire keyspace we can measure how bad a key distribution is by calculating its entropy this number e is the number of real bits of information of the key a cryptanalyst will typically happen across the key within e guesses e is defined as the sum of p k log p k where p k is the probability of key k
sci.crypt	cryptography faq technical miscellany archive name cryptography faq part last modified faq for sci crypt part technical miscellany this is the eighth of ten parts of the sci crypt faq the parts are mostly independent but you should read the first part before the rest we don t have the time to send out missing parts by mail so don t ask notes such as kah refer to the reference list in the last part the sections of this faq are available via anonymous ftp to rtfm mit edu as pub usenet news answers cryptography faq part xx the cryptography faq is posted to the newsgroups sci crypt sci answers and news answers every days contents how do i recover from lost passwords in wordperfect how do i break a vigenere repeated key cipher how do i send encrypted mail under unix pgp ripem pem is the unix crypt command secure how do i use compression with encryption is there an unbreakable cipher what does random mean in cryptography what is the unicity point a k a unicity distance what is key management and why is it important can i use pseudo random or chaotic numbers as a key stream what is the correct frequency list for english letters what is the enigma how do i shuffle cards can i foil s w pirates by encrypting my cd rom can you do automatic cryptanalysis of simple ciphers what is the coding system used by vcr how do i recover from lost passwords in wordperfect wordperfect encryption has been shown to be very easy to break the method uses xor with two repeating key streams a typed password and a byte wide counter initialized to the password length full descriptions are given in bennett ben and bergen and caelli ber chris galas writes someone awhile back was looking for a way to decrypt wordperfect document files and i think i have a solution there is a software company named accessdata east south orem ut that has a software package that will decrypt any wordperfect lotus quatro pro ms excel and paradox files the cost of the package is steep prices but if you think your pw key is less than characters or char give them a call and ask for the free demo disk the demo disk will decrypt files that have a char or less pw key how do i break a vigenere repeated key cipher a repeated key cipher where the ciphertext is something like the plaintext xor keykeykeykey and so on is called a vigenere cipher if the key is not too long and the plaintext is in english do the following discover the length of the key by counting coincidences see gaines gai sinkov sin trying each displacement of the ciphertext against itself count those bytes which are equal if the two ciphertext portions have used the same key something over of the bytes will be equal if they have used different key then less than will be equal assuming random bit bytes of key covering normal ascii text the smallest displacement which indicates an equal key is the length of the repeated key shift the text by that length and xor it with itself this removes the key and leaves you with text xored with itself since english has about bit of real information per byte streams of text xored together has bits of info per bit byte providing plenty of redundancy for choosing a unique decryption and in fact one stream of text xored with itself has just bit per byte if the key is short it might be even easier to treat this as a standard polyalphabetic substitution all the old cryptanalysis texts show how to break those it s possible with those methods in the hands of an expert if there s only ten times as much text as key see for example gaines gai sinkov sin how do i send encrypted mail under unix pgp ripem pem here s one popular method using the des command cat file compress des private key uuencode mail meanwhile there is a de jure internet standard in the works called pem privacy enhanced mail it is described in rfcs through to join the pem mailing list contact pem dev request tis com there is a beta version of pem being tested at the time of this writing there are also two programs available in the public domain for encrypting mail pgp and ripem both are available by ftp each has its own newsgroup alt security pgp and alt security ripem each has its own faq as well pgp is most commonly used outside the usa since it uses the rsa algorithm without a license and rsa s patent is valid only or at least primarily in the usa ripem is most commonly used inside the usa since it uses the rsaref which is freely available within the usa but not available for shipment outside the usa since both programs use a secret key algorithm for encrypting the body of the message pgp used idea ripem uses des and rsa for encrypting the message key they should be able to interoperate freely although there have been repeated calls for each to understand the other s formats and algorithm choices no interoperation is available at this time as far as we know is the unix crypt command secure no see ree there is a program available called cbw crypt breaker s workbench which can be used to do ciphertext only attacks on files encrypted with crypt one source for cbw is ftpcb how do i use compression with encryption a number of people have proposed doing perfect compression followed by some simple encryption method e g xor with a repeated key unfortunately you can only compress perfectly if you know the exact distribution of possible inputs for all practical purposes it s impossible to describe the typical english text beyond coarse characteristics such as single letter frequencies you can build up more and more sophisticated models of your inputs but if the enemy has a slightly more accurate model he ll be able to find some redundancy in your compressed output note that nearly all practical compression schemes unless they have been designed with cryptography in mind produce output that actually starts off with high redundancy for example the output of unix compress begins with a well known three byte magic number that can serve as an entering wedge for cryptanalysis this is not to say that compression before encryption is inherently a bad idea it just has to be done very very carefully and by no means removes the need for strong encryption compression after encryption is silly is there an unbreakable cipher yes the one time pad is unbreakable see part unfortunately the one time pad requires secure distribution of as much key material as plaintext of course a cryptosystem need not be utterly unbreakable to be useful rather it needs to be strong enough to resist attacks by likely enemies for whatever length of time the data it protects is expected to remain valid what does random mean in cryptography cryptographic applications demand much more out of a pseudorandom number generator than most applications for a source of bits to be cryptographically random it must be computationally impossible to predict what the nth random bit will be given complete knowledge of the algorithm or hardware generating the stream and the sequence of th through n st bits for all n up to the lifetime of the source a software generator also known as pseudo random has the function of expanding a truly random seed to a longer string of apparently random bits this seed must be large enough not to be guessed by the opponent ideally it should also be truly random perhaps generated by a hardware random number source those who have sparcstation workstations could for example generate random numbers using the audio input device as a source of entropy by not connecting anything to it for example cat dev audio compress foo gives a file of high entropy not random but with much randomness in it one can then encrypt that file using part of itself as a key for example to convert that seed entropy into a pseudo random string when looking for hardware devices to provide this entropy it is important really to measure the entropy rather than just assume that because it looks complicated to a human it must be random for example disk operation completion times sound like they might be unpredictable to many people but a spinning disk is much like a clock and its output completion times are relatively low in entropy what is the unicity point a k a unicity distance see sha the unicity distance is an approximation to that amount of ciphertext such that the sum of the real information entropy in the corresponding source text and encryption key equals the number of ciphertext bits used ciphertexts significantly longer than this can be shown probably to have a unique decipherment this is used to back up a claim of the validity of a ciphertext only cryptanalysis ciphertexts significantly shorter than this are likely to have multiple equally valid decryptions and therefore to gain security from the opponent s difficulty choosing the correct one unicity distance like all statistical or information theoretic measures does not make deterministic predictions but rather gives probabilistic results namely the minimum amount of ciphertext for which it is likely that there is only a single intelligible plaintext corresponding to the ciphertext when all possible keys are tried for the decryption working cryptologists don t normally deal with unicity distance as such instead they directly determine the likelihood of events of interest let the unicity distance of a cipher be d characters if fewer than d ciphertext characters have been intercepted then there is not enough information to distinguish the real key from a set of possible keys des has a unicity distance of characters which is less than ciphertext blocks each block corresponds to ascii characters this may seem alarmingly low at first but the unicity distance gives no indication of the computational work required to find the key after approximately d characters have been intercepted in fact actual cryptanalysis seldom proceeds along the lines used in discussing unicity distance like other measures such as key size unicity distance is something that guarantees insecurity if it s too small but doesn t guarantee security if it s high few practical cryptosystems are absolutely impervious to analysis all manner of characteristics might serve as entering wedges to crack some cipher messages however similar information theoretic considerations are occasionally useful for example to determine a recommended key change interval for a particular cryptosystem cryptanalysts also employ a variety of statistical and information theoretic tests to help guide the analysis in the most promising directions unfortunately most literature on the application of information statistics to cryptanalysis remains classified even the seminal work of alan turing see koz for some insight into the possibilities see kul and goo what is key management and why is it important one of the fundamental axioms of cryptography is that the enemy is in full possession of the details of the general cryptographic system and lacks only the specific key data employed in the encryption of course one would assume that the cia does not make a habit of telling mossad about its cryptosystems but mossad probably finds out anyway repeated use of a finite amount of key provides redundancy that can eventually facilitate cryptanalytic progress thus especially in modern communication systems where vast amounts of information are transferred both parties must have not only a sound cryptosystem but also enough key material to cover the traffic key management refers to the distribution authentication and handling of keys a publicly accessible example of modern key management technology is the stu iii secure telephone unit which for classified use employs individual coded crypto ignition keys and a central key management center operated by nsa there is a hierarchy in that certain ciks are used by authorized cryptographic control personnel to validate the issuance of individual traffic keys and to perform installation maintenance functions such as the reporting of lost ciks this should give an inkling of the extent of the key management problem for public key systems there are several related issues many having to do with whom do you trust can i use pseudo random or chaotic numbers as a key stream chaotic equations and fractals produce an apparent randomness from relatively compact generators perhaps the simplest example is a linear congruential sequence one of the most popular types of random number generators where there is no obvious dependence between seeds and outputs unfortunately the graph of any such sequence will in a high enough dimension show up as a regular lattice mathematically this lattice corresponds to structure which is notoriously easy for cryptanalysts to exploit more complicated generators have more complicated structure which is why they make interesting pictures but a cryptographically strong sequence will have no computable structure at all see knu exercise ree and boy what is the correct frequency list for english letters there are three answers to this question each slightly deeper than the one before you can find the first answer in various books namely a frequency list computed directly from a certain sample of english text of course any such list will be correctly computed but exactly which list you get depends on which sample was taken the second answer is that the question doesn t make sense what do you mean by english letters the english language is not a fixed finite closed object that can be exactly characterized it has changed over time it is different between different authors any particular message will have different statistics from those of the language as a whole the third answer is that yes no particular message is going to have exactly the same characteristics as english in general but for all reasonable statistical uses these slight discrepancies won t matter in fact there s an entire field called bayesian statistics other buzzwords are maximum entropy methods and maximum likelihood estimation which studies questions like what s the chance that a text with these letter frequencies is in english and comes up with reasonably robust answers so make your own list from your own samples of english text it will be good enough for practical work if you use it properly what is the enigma for a project in data security we are looking for sources of information about the german enigma code and how it was broken by the british during wwii see wel dea koz hod kah how do i shuffle cards card shuffling is a special case of the permutation of an array of values using a random or pseudo random function all possible output permutations of this process should be equally likely to do this you need a random function modran x which will produce a uniformly distributed random integer in the interval x given that function you can shuffle with the following c code assuming arrlth is the length of array arr and swap interchanges values at the two addresses given for n arrlth n n swap arr modran n arr n modran x can not be achieved exactly with a simple ranno x since ranno s interval may not be divisible by x although in most cases the error will be very small to cover this case one can take ranno s modulus mod x call that number y and if ranno returns a value less than y go back and get another ranno value can i foil s w pirates by encrypting my cd rom someone will frequently express the desire to publish a cd rom with possibly multiple pieces of software perhaps with each encrypted separately and will want to use different keys for each user perhaps even good for only a limited period of time in order to avoid piracy as far as we know this is impossible since there is nothing in standard pc or workstation hardware which uniquely identifies the user at the keyboard if there were such an identification then the cd rom could be encrypted with a key based in part on the one sold to the user and in part on the unique identifier however in this case the cd rom is one of a kind and that defeats the intended purpose if the cd rom is to be encrypted once and then mass produced there must be a key or set of keys for that encryption produced at some stage in the process that key is useable with any copy of the cd rom s data the pirate needs only to isolate that key and sell it along with the illegal copy can you do automatic cryptanalysis of simple ciphers schneier chinet chi il us bruce schneier says accessdata of orem utah sells products that break the password scheme of a number of popular macintosh and pc software packages their telephone number is no pd software has been cited but there are many papers on the subject peleg s and rosenfeld a breaking substitution ciphers using a relaxation algorithm comm acm vol pp nov lucks michael a constraint satisfaction algorithm for the automated decryption of simple substitution ciphers advances in cryptology crypto springer lecture notes in computer science vol the paper also contains references to earlier work on the subject john carrol and steve martin the automated cryptanalysis of substitution ciphers cryptologia vol x number oct p john carrol and lynda robbins automated cryptanalysis of polyalphabetic ciphers cryptologia vol xi number oct p martin kochanski a survey of data insecurity packages cryptologia vol xi number jan p martin kochanski another data insecurity package cryptologia vol xii number july p cryptologia vol xiii number pp king and bahler probabilistic relaxation in the cryptanalysis of simple substitution ciphers cryptologia king and bahler an algorithmic solution of sequential homophonic ciphers cryptologia april in press r spillman et al use of genetic algorithms in cryptanalysis of simple substitution ciphers cryptologia vol xvii number jan p what is the coding system used by vcr one very frequently asked question in sci crypt is about how the vcr codes work the following article attempts to describe it k shirriff c welch a kinsman decoding a vcr controller code cryptologia july pp
sci.crypt	cryptography faq references archive name cryptography faq part last modified faq for sci crypt part references this is the tenth of ten parts of the sci crypt faq the parts are mostly independent but you should read the first part before the rest we don t have the time to send out missing parts by mail so don t ask notes such as kah refer to the reference list in this part the sections of this faq are available via anonymous ftp to rtfm mit edu as pub usenet news answers cryptography faq part xx the cryptography faq is posted to the newsgroups sci crypt sci answers and news answers every days contents books on history and classical methods books on modern methods survey articles reference articles journals conference proceedings other electronic sources rfcs available from ftprf related newsgroups books on history and classical methods cf lambros d callimahos william f friedman military cryptanalytics aegean park press dea cipher a deavours louis kruh machine cryptography and modern cryptanalysis artech house washington st dedham ma frie william f friedman solving german codes in world war i aegean park press gai h gaines cryptanalysis a study of ciphers and their solution dover publications hin f h hinsley et al british intelligence in the second world war cambridge university press vol s a b so far xxx years and authors fix xxx hod andrew hodges alan turing the enigma burnett books ltd kah david kahn seizing the enigma houghton mifflin kah d kahn the codebreakers macmillan publishing history the abridged paperback edition left out most technical details the original hardcover edition is recommended koz w kozaczuk enigma university publications of america kul s kullback statistical methods in cryptanalysis aegean park press sin a sinkov elementary cryptanalysis math assoc am wel gordon welchman the hut six story mcgraw hill yardl herbert o yardley the american black chamber aegean park press books on modern methods bek h beker f piper cipher systems wiley bra g brassard modern cryptology a tutorial spinger verlag den d denning cryptography and data security addison wesley publishing company kob n koblitz a course in number theory and cryptography springer verlag kon a konheim cryptography a primer wiley mey c meyer and s matyas cryptography a new dimension in computer security wiley pat wayne patterson mathematical cryptology for computer scientists and mathematicians rowman littlefield pfl c pfleeger security in computing prentice hall pri w price d davies security for computer networks wiley rue r rueppel design and analysis of stream ciphers springer verlag sal a saloma public key cryptography springer verlag wel d welsh codes and cryptography claredon press survey articles ang d angluin d lichtenstein provable security in crypto systems a survey yale university department of computer science bet t beth algorithm engineering for public key algorithms ieee selected areas of communication dav m davio j goethals elements of cryptology in secure digital communications g longo ed dif w diffie m hellman privacy and authentication an introduction to cryptography ieee proceedings dif w diffie the first ten years of public key cryptography ieee proceedings fei h feistel cryptography and computer privacy scientific american fei h feistel h w notz j lynn smith some cryptographic techniques for machine to machine data communications ieee ieee proceedings hel m hellman the mathematics of public key cryptography scientific american lak s lakshmivarahan algorithms for public key cryptosystems in advances in computers m yovtis ed academic press lem a lempel cryptology in transition computing surveys mas j massey an introduction to contemporary cryptology ieee proceedings sim g simmons ed contemporary cryptology the science of information integrity ieee press reference articles and d andelman j reeds on the cryptanalysis of rotor and substitution permutation networks ieee trans on inform theory ben john bennett analysis of the encryption algorithm used in the wordperfect word processing program cryptologia ber h a bergen and w j caelli file security in wordperfect cryptologia january bih e biham and a shamir differential cryptanalysis of des like cryptosystems journal of cryptology vol bi a e biham a shamir differential cryptanalysis of snefru khafre redoc ii loki and lucifer in proceedings of crypto ed by j feigenbaum boy j boyar inferring sequences produced by pseudo random number generators journal of the acm bri e brickell j moore m purtill structure in the s boxes of des in proceedings of crypto a m odlyzko ed bro l brown a proposed design for an extended des computer security in the computer age elsevier science publishers b v north holland ifip w j caelli ed bro l brown j pieprzyk j seberry loki a cryptographic primitive for authentication and secrecy applications in proceedings of austcrypt cae h gustafson e dawson w caelli comparison of block ciphers in proceedings of auscrypt j seberry and j piepryzk eds cam k w campbell m j wiener proof the des is not a group in proceedings of crypto ell carl m ellison a solution of the hebern messages cryptologia vol xii jul eve s even o goldreich des like functions can generate the alternating group ieee trans on inform theory vol gar g garon r outerbridge des watch an examination of the sufficiency of the data encryption standard for financial institutions in the s cryptologia vol xv gil gillogly cryptologia gm shafi goldwasser silvio micali probabilistic encryption and how to play mental poker keeping secret all partial information proceedings of the fourteenth annual acm symposium on theory of computing hum d g n hunter and a r mckenzie experiments with relaxation algorithms for breaking simple substitution ciphers computer journal kam j kam g davida a structured design of substitution permutation encryption networks ieee trans information theory kin p kinnucan data encryption gurus tuchman and meyer cryptologia vol ii xxx kru kruh cryptologia lai x lai j massey a proposal for a new block encryption standard eurocrypt lub c rackoff m luby how to construct psuedorandom permutations from psuedorandom functions siam journal of computing vol mas j massey an introduction to contemporary cryptology ieee proceedings me a r merkle fast software encryption functions in proceedings of crypto menezes and vanstone ed mey c meyer ciphertext plaintext and ciphertext key dependence vs number of rounds for the data encryption standard afips conference proceedings nbs data encryption standard national bureau of standards fips pub washington dc january ree j reeds cracking a random number generator cryptologia ree j a reeds and p j weinberger file security and the unix crypt command at t bell laboratories technical journal vol part october sha c shannon communication theory of secrecy systems bell system technical journal she b kaliski r rivest a sherman is the data encryption standard a group journal of cryptology vol shi a shimizu s miyaguchi fast data encipherment algorithm feal eurocrypt sor a sorkin lucifer a cryptographic algorithm cryptologia journals conference proceedings crypto eurocrypt ieee transactions on information theory cryptologia a cryptology journal quarterly since jan cryptologia rose hulman institute of technology terre haute indiana general systems analysis history journal of cryptology international association for cryptologic research published by springer verlag quarterly since the cryptogram journal of the american cryptogram association west hickory street mundelein il primarily puzzle cryptograms of various sorts cryptosystems journal published by tony patti p o box newtown pa usa or tony s patti cup portal com publisher s comment includes complete cryptosystems with source and executable programs on diskettes tutorial the typical cryptosystems supports multi megabit keys and galois field arithmetic inexpensive hardware random number generator details computer and communication security reviews published by ross anderson sample issue available from various ftp sites including black ox ac uk editorial c o rja cl cam ac uk publisher s comment we review all the conference proceedings in this field including not just crypto and eurocrypt but regional gatherings like auscrypt and chinacrypt we also abstract over journals and cover computer security as well as cryptology so readers can see the research trends in applications as well as theory other address of note aegean park press p o box laguna hills ca answering machine at the orange book is dod std published december as part of the rainbow book series write to department of defense national security agency attn s savage road fort meade md and ask for the trusted computer system evaluation criteria or call bamfd bamford the puzzle palace penguin books goo i j good good thinking the foundations of probability and its applications university of minnesota press knu d e knuth the art of computer programming volume seminumerical algorithms addison wesley kul soloman kullbach information theory and statistics dover yao a yao computational information theory in complexity in information theory ed by abu mostafa how may one obtain copies of fips and ansi standards cited herein many textbooks on cryptography contain complete reprints of the fips standards which are not copyrighted the following standards may be ordered from the u s department of commerce national technical information service springfield va fips pub data encryption standard this is des fips pub guidelines for implementing as using the nbs des fips pub des modes of operation fips pub computer data authentication using des the following standards may be ordered from the american national standards institute sales office broadway new york ny phone ansi x data encryption algorithm identical to fips ansi x dea modes of operation identical to fips notes figure in fips pub is in error but figure in x is correct the text is correct in both publications electronic sources anonymous ftp ftpbk ftp uu net bsd sources usr bin des ftpcb ftp uu net usenet comp sources unix volume cbw ftpdf ftp funet fi pub unix security destoo tar z ftpey ftp psy uq oz au pub des ftpmd rsa com ftpmr cl next cl msu edu pub crypt newdes tar z ftpob ftp com com orange book ftppf prep ai mit edu pub lpf ftppk ucsd edu hamradio packet tcpip crypto des tar z ftprf nic merit edu documents rfc ftpsf beta xerox com pub hash ftpso chalmers se pub des des tar z ftpuf ftp uu net usenet comp sources unix volume ufc crypt ftpwp garbo uwasa fi pc util wppass zip rfcs available from ftprf kaliski b privacy enhancement for internet electronic mail part iv key certification and related services february p format txt bytes balenson d privacy enhancement for internet electronic mail part iii algorithms modes and identifiers february p format txt bytes obsoletes rfc kent s privacy enhancement for internet electronic mail part ii certificate based key management february p format txt bytes obsoletes rfc linn j privacy enhancement for internet electronic mail part i message encryption and authentication procedures february p format txt bytes obsoletes rfc related newsgroups there are other newsgroups which a sci crypt reader might want also to read some have their own faq as well alt comp compression discussion of compression algorithms and code alt security general security discussions alt security index index to alt security alt security pgp discussion of pgp alt security ripem discussion of ripem alt society civil liberty general civil liberties including privacy comp org eff news news reports from eff comp org eff talk discussion of eff related issues comp patents discussion of s w patents including rsa comp risks some mention of crypto and wiretapping comp society privacy general privacy issues comp security announce announcements of security holes misc legal computing sci math general math discussion
sci.crypt	bob putz cain was pgp and other bs in article apr natasha portal com bob natasha portal com bob cain writes charles kincy ckincy cs umr edu wrote in article apr natasha portal com bob natasha portal com bob cain writes oh i see flame someone tell them that they are immature tell them they are wrong and then don t offer any proof for your assertions you really are a putz put up or shut up i will provide any proof you wish in private name it dickhead don t bother c j t k blaze cs jhu edu has pretty much made your pathetic ass superfluous you lose pack up your bags and go home putz cain well if the shoe fits cpk
sci.crypt	cryptography faq basic cryptology archive name cryptography faq part last modified faq for sci crypt part basic cryptology this is the third of ten parts of the sci crypt faq the parts are mostly independent but you should read the first part before the rest we don t have the time to send out missing parts by mail so don t ask notes such as kah refer to the reference list in the last part the sections of this faq are available via anonymous ftp to rtfm mit edu as pub usenet news answers cryptography faq part xx the cryptography faq is posted to the newsgroups sci crypt sci answers and news answers every days contents what is cryptology cryptography plaintext ciphertext encryption key what references can i start with to learn cryptology how does one go about cryptanalysis what is a brute force search and what is its cryptographic relevance what are some properties satisfied by every strong cryptosystem if a cryptosystem is theoretically unbreakable then is it guaranteed analysis proof in practice why are many people still using cryptosystems that are relatively easy to break what is cryptology cryptography plaintext ciphertext encryption key the story begins when julius caesar sent messages to his trusted acquaintances he didn t trust the messengers so he replaced every a by a c every b by a d and so on through the alphabet only someone who knew the shift by rule could decipher his messages a cryptosystem or cipher system is a method of disguising messages so that only certain people can see through the disguise cryptography is the art of creating and using cryptosystems cryptanalysis is the art of breaking cryptosystems seeing through the disguise even when you re not supposed to be able to cryptology is the study of both cryptography and cryptanalysis the original message is called a plaintext the disguised message is called a ciphertext encryption means any procedure to convert plaintext into ciphertext decryption means any procedure to convert ciphertext into plaintext a cryptosystem is usually a whole collection of algorithms the algorithms are labelled the labels are called keys for instance caesar probably used shift by n encryption for several different values of n it s natural to say that n is the key here the people who are supposed to be able to see through the disguise are called recipients other people are enemies opponents interlopers eavesdroppers or third parties what references can i start with to learn cryptology for an introduction to technical matter the survey articles given in part are the best place to begin as they are in general concise authored by competent people and well written however these articles are mostly concerned with cryptology as it has developed in the last years or so and are more abstract and mathematical than historical the codebreakers by kahn kah is encyclopedic in its history and technical detail of cryptology up to the mid s introductory cryptanalysis can be learned from gaines gai or sinkov sin this is recommended especially for people who want to devise their own encryption algorithms since it is a common mistake to try to make a system before knowing how to break one the selection of an algorithm for the des drew the attention of many public researchers to problems in cryptology consequently several textbooks and books to serve as texts have appeared the book of denning den gives a good introduction to a broad range of security including encryption algorithms database security access control and formal models of security similar comments apply to the books of price davies pri and pfleeger pfl the books of konheim kon and meyer matyas mey are quite technical books both konheim and meyer were directly involved in the development of des and both books give a thorough analysis of des konheim s book is quite mathematical with detailed analyses of many classical cryptosystems meyer and matyas concentrate on modern cryptographic methods especially pertaining to key management and the integration of security facilities into computer systems and networks the books of rueppel rue and koblitz kob concentrate on the application of number theory and algebra to cryptography how does one go about cryptanalysis classical cryptanalysis involves an interesting combination of analytical reasoning application of mathematical tools pattern finding patience determination and luck the best available textbooks on the subject are the military cryptanalytics series frie it is clear that proficiency in cryptanalysis is for the most part gained through the attempted solution of given systems such experience is considered so valuable that some of the cryptanalyses performed during wwii by the allies are still classified modern public key cryptanalysis may consist of factoring an integer or taking a discrete logarithm these are not the traditional fare of the cryptanalyst computational number theorists are some of the most successful cryptanalysts against public key systems what is a brute force search and what is its cryptographic relevance in a nutshell if f x y and you know y and can compute f you can find x by trying every possible x that s brute force search example say a cryptanalyst has found a plaintext and a corresponding ciphertext but doesn t know the key he can simply try encrypting the plaintext using each possible key until the ciphertext matches or decrypting the ciphertext to match the plaintext whichever is faster every well designed cryptosystem has such a large key space that this brute force search is impractical advances in technology sometimes change what is considered practical for example des which has been in use for over years now has or about possible keys a computation with this many operations was certainly unlikely for most users in the mid s the situation is very different today given the dramatic decrease in cost per processor operation massively parallel machines threaten the security of des against brute force search some scenarios are described by garron and outerbridge gar one phase of a more sophisticated cryptanalysis may involve a brute force search of some manageably small space of possibilities what are some properties satisfied by every strong cryptosystem the security of a strong system resides with the secrecy of the key rather than with an attempt to keep the algorithm itself secret a strong cryptosystem has a large keyspace as mentioned above the unicity distance is a measure which gives the minimum amount of ciphertext that must be intercepted to uniquely identify the key and if for some key the unicity distance is much longer than the amount of ciphertext you intend to encrypt under that key the system is probably strong a strong cryptosystem will certainly produce ciphertext which appears random to all standard statistical tests see for example cae a strong cryptosystem will resist all known previous attacks a system which has never been subjected to scrutiny is suspect if a system passes all the tests mentioned above is it necessarily strong certainly not many weak cryptosystems looked good at first however sometimes it is possible to show that a cryptosystem is strong by mathematical proof if joe can break this system then he can also solve the well known difficult problem of factoring integers see part failing that it s a crap shoot if a cryptosystem is theoretically unbreakable then is it guaranteed analysis proof in practice cryptanalytic methods include what is known as practical cryptanalysis the enemy doesn t have to just stare at your ciphertext until he figures out the plaintext for instance he might assume cribs stretches of probable plaintext if the crib is correct then he might be able to deduce the key and then decipher the rest of the message or he might exploit isologs the same plaintext enciphered in several cryptosystems or several keys thus he might obtain solutions even when cryptanalytic theory says he doesn t have a chance sometimes cryptosystems malfunction or are misused the one time pad for example loses all security if it is used more than once even chosen plaintext attacks where the enemy somehow feeds plaintext into the encryptor until he can deduce the key have been employed see kah why are many people still using cryptosystems that are relatively easy to break some don t know any better often amateurs think they can design secure systems and are not aware of what an expert cryptanalyst could do and sometimes there is insufficient motivation for anybody to invest the work needed to crack a system
sci.crypt	re an open letter to mr clinton here s a simple way to convert the clipper proposal to an unexceptionable one make it voluntary that is you get high quality secure nsa classified technology if you agree to escrow your key otherwise you are on your own david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more brad templeton brad clarinet com wrote it occurs to me that if they get a wiretap order on you and the escrow houses release your code to the cops your code is now no longer secure it s in the hands of cops and while i am sure most of the time they are good their security will not be as good as the escrow houses what this effectively means is that if they perform a wiretap on you at the end of the wiretap they should be obligated to inform you that a tap was performed and replace for free the clipper chip in your cellular phone so that it is once again a code known only to the escrow houses getting the court order to reveal the key also makes decipherable all past conversations which may be on tape or disk or whatver as i understand the proposal i could be wrong but i ve seen no mention of session keys being the escrowed entities as the eff noted this raises further issues about the fruits of one bust leading to incrimination in other areas but is it any worse than the current unsecure system it becomes much worse of course if the government then uses this clinton clipper to argue for restrictions on unapproved encryption this is the main concern of most of us i think the camel s nose in the tent etc and it may also become much worse if the ostensible security is increased thus allowing greater access to central office records by the government the conversations being encrypted who will object to letting the government have access to them perhaps even automatically archiving large fractions this was one of the main objections to the s proposal that it would force telecom suppliers to provide easy access for the government one the government has had access to months or years of your encrypted conversations now all it takes is one misstep one violation that gets them the paperwork needed to decrypt all of them do we want anyone to have this kind of power tim may whose sig block may get him busted in the new regime timothy c may crypto anarchy encryption digital money tcmay netcom com anonymous networks digital pseudonyms zero knowledge reputations information markets w a s t e aptos ca black markets collapse of governments higher power public key pgp and mailsafe available
sci.crypt	cryptography faq net etiquette archive name cryptography faq part last modified faq for sci crypt part net etiquette this is the second of ten parts of the sci crypt faq the parts are mostly independent but you should read the first part before the rest we don t have the time to send out missing parts by mail so don t ask notes such as kah refer to the reference list in the last part the sections of this faq are available via anonymous ftp to rtfm mit edu as pub usenet news answers cryptography faq part xx the cryptography faq is posted to the newsgroups sci crypt sci answers and news answers every days contents what groups are around what s a faq who am i why am i here do political discussions belong in sci crypt how do i present a new encryption scheme in sci crypt what groups are around what s a faq who am i why am i here read news announce newusers and news answers for a few weeks always make sure to read a newsgroup for some time before you post to it you ll be amazed how often the same question can be asked in the same newsgroup after a month you ll have a much better sense of what the readers want to see do political discussions belong in sci crypt no in fact some newsgroups notably misc legal computing were created exactly so that political questions like should rsa be patented don t get in the way of technical discussions many sci crypt readers also read misc legal computing comp org eff talk comp patents sci math comp compression et al for the benefit of people who don t care about those other topics try to put your postings in the right group questions about microfilm and smuggling and other non cryptographic spy stuff don t belong in sci crypt either how do i present a new encryption scheme in sci crypt i just came up with this neat method of encryption here s some ciphertext fhdsijoyw ogbujhkfsyuire is it strong without a doubt questions like this are the most annoying traffic on sci crypt if you have come up with an encryption scheme providing some ciphertext from it is not adequate nobody has ever been impressed by random gibberish any new algorithm should be secure even if the opponent knows the full algorithm including how any message key is distributed and only the private key is kept secret there are some systematic and unsystematic ways to take reasonably long ciphertexts and decrypt them even without prior knowledge of the algorithm but this is a time consuming and possibly fruitless exercise which most sci crypt readers won t bother with so what do you do if you have a new encryption scheme first of all find out if it s really new look through this faq for references and related methods familiarize yourself with the literature and the introductory textbooks when you can appreciate how your cryptosystem fits into the world at large try to break it yourself you shouldn t waste the time of tens of thousands of readers asking a question which you could have easily answered on your own if you really think your system is secure and you want to get some reassurance from experts you might try posting full details of your system including working code and a solid theoretical explanation to sci crypt keep in mind that the export of cryptography is regulated in some areas if you re lucky an expert might take some interest in what you posted you can encourage this by offering cash rewards for instance noted cryptographer ralph merkle is offering to anyone who can break snefru but there are no guarantees if you don t have enough experience then most likely any experts who look at your system will be able to find a flaw if this happens it s your responsibility to consider the flaw and learn from it rather than just add one more layer of complication and come back for another round a different way to get your cryptosystem reviewed is to have the nsa look at it a full discussion of this procedure is outside the scope of this faq among professionals a common rule of thumb is that if you want to design a cryptosystem you have to have experience as a cryptanalyst
sci.crypt	cryptography faq product ciphers archive name cryptography faq part last modified faq for sci crypt part product ciphers this is the fifth of ten parts of the sci crypt faq the parts are mostly independent but you should read the first part before the rest we don t have the time to send out missing parts by mail so don t ask notes such as kah refer to the reference list in the last part the sections of this faq are available via anonymous ftp to rtfm mit edu as pub usenet news answers cryptography faq part xx the cryptography faq is posted to the newsgroups sci crypt sci answers and news answers every days contents what is a product cipher what makes a product cipher secure what are some group theoretic properties of product ciphers what can be proven about the security of a product cipher how are block ciphers used to encrypt data longer than the block size can symmetric block ciphers be used for message authentication what exactly is des what is triple des what is differential cryptanalysis how was nsa involved in the design of des is des available in software is des available in hardware can des be used to protect classified information what are ecb cbc cfb and ofb encryption what is a product cipher a product cipher is a block cipher that iterates several weak operations such as substitution transposition modular addition multiplication and linear transformation a block cipher just means a cipher that encrypts a block of data bytes say all at once then goes on to the next block the notion of product ciphers is due to shannon sha examples of modern product ciphers include lucifer sor des nbs sp networks kam loki bro feal shi pes lai khufu and khafre me a the so called feistel ciphers are a class of product ciphers which operate on one half of the ciphertext at each round and then swap the ciphertext halves after each round lucifer des loki and feal are examples of feistel ciphers the following table compares the main parameters of several product ciphers cipher block length key bits number of rounds lucifer des loki feal x x pes what makes a product cipher secure nobody knows how to prove mathematically that a product cipher is completely secure so in practice one begins by demonstrating that the cipher looks highly random for example the cipher must be nonlinear and it must produce ciphertext which functionally depends on every bit of the plaintext and the key meyer mey has shown that at least rounds of des are required to guarantee such a dependence in this sense a product cipher should act as a mixing function which combines the plaintext key and ciphertext in a complex nonlinear fashion the fixed per round substitutions of the product cipher are referred to as s boxes for example lucifer has s boxes and des has s boxes the nonlinearity of a product cipher reduces to a careful design of these s boxes a list of partial design criteria for the s boxes of des which apply to s boxes in general may be found in brown bro and brickell et al bri what are some group theoretic properties of product ciphers let e be a product cipher that maps n bit blocks to n bit blocks let e k x be the encryption of x under key k then for any fixed k the map sending x to e k x is a permutation of the set of n bit blocks denote this permutation by p k the set of all n bit permutations is called the symmetric group and is written s n the collection of all these permutations p k where k ranges over all possible keys is denoted e s n if e were a random mapping from plaintexts to ciphertexts then we would expect e s n to generate a large subset of s n coppersmith and grossman cop have shown that a very simple product cipher can generate the alternating group a n given a sufficient number of rounds the alternating group is half of the symmetric group it consists of all even permutations i e all permutations which can be written as an even number of swaps even and goldreich eve were able to extend these results to show that feistel ciphers can generate a n given a sufficient number of rounds the security of multiple encipherment also depends on the group theoretic properties of a cipher multiple encipherment is an extension over single encipherment if for keys k k there does not exist a third key k such that e k e k x e k x which indicates that encrypting twice with two independent keys k k is equal to a single encryption under the third key k if for every k k there exists a k such that eq is true then we say that e is a group this question of whether des is a group under this definition was extensively studied by sherman kaliski and rivest she in their paper they give strong evidence for the hypothesis that des is not a group in fact des is not a group cam what can be proven about the security of a product cipher recall from above that p k is a permutation produced by e under some key k the goal of the designer of e is to ensure that p k appears to be a random element of s n the symmetric group let r be an element of s n selected randomly we will say that p k and r are indistinguishable if an observer given p k and r in some order cannot distinguish between these two permutations in polynomial time that is with time bounded resources the observer cannot determine which of the permutations is produced by e the optimal decision is no better than simply guessing luby and rackoff lub have shown that a class of feistel ciphers are secure in this sense when the round mapping is replaced by random boolean functions how are block ciphers used to encrypt data longer than the block size there are four standard modes of operation and numerous non standard ones as well the standard modes of operation are defined in the u s department of commerce federal information processing standard fips published in see the question about ecb below for more details although they are defined for the des block cipher the modes of operation can be used with any block cipher can symmetric block ciphers be used for message authentication one may use a symmetric cryptosystem block cipher to prove to himself that he did or did not generate a message and to prove to himself whether his message was altered or unaltered since generation but one cannot prove these things to another without revealing the key and thereafter that key cannot be used to prove anything about any messages that were authenticated using that key see ansi x and fips for a standard method of message authentication using des what exactly is des des is the u s government s data encryption standard a product cipher that operates on bit blocks of data using a bit key it is defined in fips which supersedes fips fips are federal information processing standards published by ntis des is identical to the ansi standard data encryption algorithm dea defined in ansi x what is triple des triple des is a product cipher which like des operates on bit data blocks there are several forms each of which uses the des cipher times some forms use two bit keys some use three the des modes of operation may also be used with triple des some people refer to e k d k e k x as triple des this method is defined in chapter of the ansi standard x financial institution key management and is intended for use in encrypting des keys and ivs for automated key distribution its formal name is encryption and decryption of a single key by a key pair but it is referenced in other standards documents as ede that standard says section key encrypting keys may be a single dea key or a dea key pair key pairs shoud be used where additional security is needed e g the data protected by the key s has a long security life a key pair shall not be encrypted or decrypted using a single key others use the term triple des for e k d k e k x or e k e k e k x one of us carl ellison keeps advocating des triple use in the form e k tran e k tran e k compress x where each des instance has its own key and iv for cbc mode and tran has been posted on sci crypt it is a large block transposition program taking its key from the data stream itself so that it is not an encryption program on its own part what is differential cryptanalysis differential cryptanalysis is a statistical attack that can be applied to any iterated mapping ie any mapping which is based on a repeated round function the method was recently popularized by biham and shamir bih but coppersmith has remarked that the s boxes of des were optimized against this attack some years ago this method has proved effective against several product ciphers notably feal bi a differential cryptanalysis is based on observing a large number of ciphertexts y y whose corresponding plaintexts x x satisfy a known difference d x x where is componentwise xor in the basic biham shamir attack such plaintext pairs are required to determine the key for des substantially fewer pairs are required if des is truncated to or rounds in these cases the actual key can be recovered in a matter of minutes using a few thousand pairs for full des this attack is impractical because it requires so many known plaintexts the work of biham and shamir on des revealed several startling observations on the algorithm most importantly if the key schedule was removed from des and a bit key was used the key could be recovered in less than steps thus independent subkeys do not add substantial security to des further the s boxes of des are extremely sensitive in that changing even single entries in these tables yields significant improvement in the differential attack adi shamir is quoted to say nytimes oct i would say that contrary to what some people believe there is no evidence of tampering with the des so that the basic design was weakened how was nsa involved in the design of des according to kinnucan kin tuchman a member of the group that developed des at ibm is quoted as saying we developed the des algorithm entirely within ibm using ibmers the nsa did not dictate a single wire tuchman and meyer another developer of des spent a year breaking ciphers and finding weaknesses in lucifer they then spent two years strengthening lucifer their basic approach was to look for strong substitution permutation and key scheduling functions ibm has classified the notes containing the selection criteria at the request of the nsa the nsa told us we had inadvertently reinvented some of the deep secrets it uses to make its own algorithms explains tuchman on the other hand a document called involvement of the nsa in the development of des unclassified summary of the united states select committee on intelligence printed in the ieee communications magazine p states in the development of des nsa convinced ibm that a reduced keysize was sufficient indirectly assisted in the development of the s box structures and certified that the final des algorithm was to the best of their knowledge free from any statistical or mathematical weakness clearly the key size was reduced at the insistence of the nsa the article further states that the nsa did not tamper with the algorithm itself just the parameters which in some sense resolves the apparent conflict in the remarks of meyer and tuchman presented above is des available in software several people have made des code available via ftp see part for pathnames stig ostholm ftpso bsd ftpbk eric young ftpey dennis furguson ftpdf mark riordan ftpmr phil karn ftppk a pascal listing of des is also given in patterson pat fips says the algorithm specified in this standard is to be implemented using hardware not software technology software implementations in general purpose computers are not in compliance with this standard despite this software implementations abound and are used by government agencies is des available in hardware the following paragraphs are quoted from messages sent to the editors we don t vouch for the quality or even existence of the products chip rosenthal says dallas semiconductor makes a des encryption decryption device for use on standard digital kbps pcm telecom data streams it is capable of processing data in real time e g one sample frame it is the ds their phone number is you would probably need to talk with dewight in telecom marketing christian franke franke informatik rwth aachen de says cryptech cry c mbit s according to data sheet with bit interface we use this one because it was the only one available when we started the project no problems pijnenburg pcc mbit s according to data sheet address pijnenburg b v boxtelswweg nl ne vught the netherlands infosys des chip germany s boxes must be loaded by software so you can modify the algorithm sorry i don t have the data sheet handy please e mail me if you need further information mjr tis com marcus j ranum says supercrypt mb sec and faster des and proprietary storage for bit keys key stream generator integrated hardware des procedure extended mode with bit keys computer elektronik infosys a herndon parkway herndon va thember gandalf ca tim hember says newbridge microsystems sells an am compatible des chip that operates at mhz performs a round of encryption in clocks has a three stage pipeline supports ecb cbc cfb and cfb further it is very reasonable priced as opposed to other high end des chips call newbridge microsystems ottawa there are no import export issues with canada and the us if you require custom des or public key ics then timestep engineering developed newbridge s crypto chips and ics for other commercial and educational establishments they can be reached at can des be used to protect classified information des is not intended to protect classified data fips says this standard will be used by federal departments and agencies for the cryptographic protection of computer data when the following conditions apply cryptographic protection is required and the data is not classified according to the national security act of as amended or the atomic energy act of as amended what are ecb cbc cfb and ofb encryption these are methods for using block ciphers such as des to encrypt messages files and blocks of data known as modes of operation four modes of operation are defined in fips december and also in ansi x fips specifies that when bit ascii data is sent in octets the unused most significant bit is to be set to fips also specifies the padding for short blocks the four des modes of operation are electronic code book ecb cipher block chaining cbc k bit cipher feedback cfb and k bit output feedback ofb these methods are explained below in a c language like notation some symbols p n the n th block of plaintext input to encryption output from decryption size of block determined by the mode c n the n th block of ciphertext output from encryption input to decryption size of block determined by the mode e m the des encryption function performed on bit block m using the key schedule derived from some bit key d m the des decryption function performed on bit block m using the same key schedule as in e m except that the keys in the schedule are used in the opposite order as in e m iv a bit initialization vector a secret value which along with the key is shared by both encryptor and decryptor i n the n th value of a bit variable used in some modes r n the n th value of a bit variable used in some modes lsb m k the k least significant right most bits of m e g m k msb m k the k most significant left most bits of m e g m k k operators as defined in the c langage electronic code book ecb p n and c n are each bits long encryption decryption c n e p n p n d c n cipher block chaining cbc p n and c n are each bits long encryption decryption c e p iv p d c iv n c n e p n c n p n d c n c n k bit cipher feedback cfb p n and c n are each k bits long k encryption decryption i iv i iv n i n i n k c n i n i n k c n all n r n msb e i n k r n msb e i n k all n c n p n r n p n c n r n note that for k this reduces to i iv i iv n i n c n i n c n all n r n e i n r n e i n all n c n p n r n p n c n r n cfb notes since i n depends only on the plain or cipher text from the previous operation the e function can be performed in parallel with the reception of the text with which it is used k bit output feedback ofb p n and c n are each k bits long k encryption decryption i iv i iv n i n i n k r n i n i n k r n all n r n msb e i n k r n msb e i n k all n c n p n r n p n c n r n note that for k this reduces to i iv i iv n i n r n i n r n all n r n e i n r n e i n all n c n p n r n p n c n r n ofb notes encryption and decryption are identical since i n is independent of p and c the e function can be performed in advance of the receipt of the plain cipher text with which it is to be used additional notes on des modes of operation ecb and cbc use e to encrypt and d to decrypt but the feedback modes use e to both encrypt and decrypt this disproves the erroneous claim that systems which feature e but not d cannot be used for data confidentiality and therefore are not subject to export controls
sci.crypt	cryptography faq public key cryptography archive name cryptography faq part last modified faq for sci crypt part public key cryptography this is the sixth of ten parts of the sci crypt faq the parts are mostly independent but you should read the first part before the rest we don t have the time to send out missing parts by mail so don t ask notes such as kah refer to the reference list in the last part the sections of this faq are available via anonymous ftp to rtfm mit edu as pub usenet news answers cryptography faq part xx the cryptography faq is posted to the newsgroups sci crypt sci answers and news answers every days contents what is public key cryptography what s rsa is rsa secure how fast can people factor numbers what about other public key cryptosystems what is public key cryptography in a classic cryptosystem we have encryption functions e k and decryption functions d k such that d k e k p p for any plaintext p in a public key cryptosystem e k can be easily computed from some public key x which in turn is computed from k x is published so that anyone can encrypt messages if d k cannot be easily computed from x then only the person who generated k can decrypt messages that s the essence of public key cryptography published by diffie and hellman in in a classic cryptosystem if you want your friends to be able to send secret messages to you you have to make sure nobody other than them sees the key k in a public key cryptosystem you just publish x and you don t have to worry about spies this is only the beginning of public key cryptography there is an extensive literature on security models for public key cryptography applications of public key cryptography other applications of the mathematical technology behind public key cryptography and so on what s rsa rsa is a public key cryptosystem defined by rivest shamir and adleman for full details there is a faq available by ftp at rsa com here s a small example plaintexts are positive integers up to keys are quadruples p q e d with p a bit prime number q a bit prime number and d and e large numbers with de divisible by p q we define e k p p e mod pq d k c c d mod pq now e k is easily computed from the pair pq e but as far as anyone knows there is no easy way to compute d k from the pair pq e so whoever generates k can publish pq e anyone can send a secret message to him he is the only one who can read the messages is rsa secure nobody knows an obvious attack on rsa is to factor pq into p and q see below for comments on how fast state of the art factorization algorithms run unfortunately nobody has the slightest idea how to prove that factorization or any realistic problem at all for that matter is inherently slow it is easy to formalize what we mean by rsa is isn t strong but as hendrik w lenstra jr says exact definitions appear to be necessary only when one wishes to prove that algorithms with certain properties do not exist and theoretical computer science is notoriously lacking in such negative results how fast can people factor numbers it depends on the size of the numbers in october arjen lenstra and dan bernstein factored into primes using about three weeks of maspar time the maspar is a processor simd machine each processor can add about integers per second the algorithm there is called the number field sieve it is quite a bit faster for special numbers like than for general numbers n but it takes time only about exp o log n log log n in any case an older and more popular method for smaller numbers is the multiple polynomial quadratic sieve which takes time exp o log n log log n faster than the number field sieve for small n but slower for large n the breakeven point is somewhere between and digits depending on the implementations factorization is a fast moving field the state of the art just a few years ago was nowhere near as good as it is now if no new methods are developed then bit rsa keys will always be safe from factorization but one can t predict the future before the number field sieve was found many people conjectured that the quadratic sieve was asymptotically as fast as any factoring method could be what about other public key cryptosystems we ve talked about rsa because it s well known and easy to describe but there are lots of other public key systems around many of which are faster than rsa or depend on problems more widely believed to be difficult this has been just a brief introduction if you really want to learn about the many facets of public key cryptography consult the books and journal articles listed in part
sci.crypt	cryptography faq digital signatures archive name cryptography faq part last modified faq for sci crypt part digital signatures and hash functions this is the seventh of ten parts of the sci crypt faq the parts are mostly independent but you should read the first part before the rest we don t have the time to send out missing parts by mail so don t ask notes such as kah refer to the reference list in the last part the sections of this faq are available via anonymous ftp to rtfm mit edu as pub usenet news answers cryptography faq part xx the cryptography faq is posted to the newsgroups sci crypt sci answers and news answers every days contents what is a one way hash function what is the difference between public private secret shared etc what are md and md what is snefru what is a one way hash function a typical one way hash function takes a variable length message and produces a fixed length hash given the hash it is computationally impossible to find a message with that hash in fact one can t determine any usable information about a message with that hash not even a single bit for some one way hash functions it s also computationally impossible to determine two messages which produce the same hash a one way hash function can be private or public just like an encryption function here s one application of a public one way hash function like md or snefru most public key signature systems are relatively slow to sign a long message may take longer than the user is willing to wait solution compute the one way hash of the message and sign the hash which is short now anyone who wants to verify the signature can do the same thing another name for one way hash function is message digest function what is the difference between public private secret shared etc there is a horrendous mishmash of terminology in the literature for a very small set of concepts when an algorithm depends on a key which isn t published we call it a private algorithm otherwise we call it a public algorithm we have encryption functions e and decryption functions d so that d e m m for any message m we also have hashing functions h and verification functions v such that v m x if and only if x h m a public key cryptosystem has public encryption and private decryption checksums such as the application mentioned in the previous question have public hashing and public verification digital signature functions have private hashing and public verification only one person can produce the hash for a message but everyone can verify that the hash is correct obviously when an algorithm depends on a private key it s meant to be unusable by anyone who doesn t have the key there s no real difference between a shared key and a private key a shared key isn t published so it s private if you encrypt data for a friend rather than for your eyes only are you suddenly doing shared key encryption rather than private key encryption no what are md and md md and md are message digest functions developed by ron rivest definitions appear in rfc and rfc see part code is available from ftpmd note that a transcription error was found in the original md draft rfc the corrected algorithm should be called md a though some people refer to it as md what is snefru snefru is a family of message digest functions developed by ralph merkle snefru is an round function the newest in the family definitions appear in merkle s paper me a code is available from ftpsf
sci.crypt	cryptography faq other miscellany archive name cryptography faq part last modified faq for sci crypt part other miscellany this is the ninth of ten parts of the sci crypt faq the parts are mostly independent but you should read the first part before the rest we don t have the time to send out missing parts by mail so don t ask notes such as kah refer to the reference list in the last part the sections of this faq are available via anonymous ftp to rtfm mit edu as pub usenet news answers cryptography faq part xx the cryptography faq is posted to the newsgroups sci crypt sci answers and news answers every days contents what is the national security agency nsa what are the us export regulations what is tempest what are the beale ciphers and are they a hoax what is the american cryptogram association and how do i get in touch is rsa patented what about the voynich manuscript what is the national security agency nsa the nsa is the official security body of the u s government it was given its charter by president truman in the late s and has continued research in cryptology till the present the nsa is known to be the largest employer of mathematicians in the world and is also the largest purchaser of computer hardware in the world governments in general have always been prime employers of cryptologists the nsa probably possesses cryptographic expertise many years ahead of the public state of the art and can undoubtedly break many of the systems used in practice but for reasons of national security almost all information about the nsa is classified bamford s book bamfd gives a history of the people and operations of the nsa the following quote from massey mas highlights the difference between public and private research in cryptography if one regards cryptology as the prerogative of government one accepts that most cryptologic research will be conducted behind closed doors without doubt the number of workers engaged today in such secret research in cryptology far exceeds that of those engaged in open research in cryptology for only about years has there in fact been widespread open research in cryptology there have been and will continue to be conflicts between these two research communities open research is common quest for knowledge that depends for its vitality on the open exchange of ideas via conference presentations and publications in scholarly journals but can a government agency charged with responsibilities of breaking the ciphers of other nations countenance the publication of a cipher that it cannot break can a researcher in good conscience publish such a cipher that might undermine the effectiveness of his own government s code breakers one might argue that publication of a provably secure cipher would force all governments to behave like stimson s gentlemen but one must be aware that open research in cryptography is fraught with political and ethical considerations of a severity than in most scientific fields the wonder is not that some conflicts have occurred between government agencies and open researchers in cryptology but rather that these conflicts at least those of which we are aware have been so few and so mild what are the us export regulations in a nutshell there are two government agencies which control export of encryption software one is the bureau of export administration bxa in the department of commerce authorized by the export administration regulations ear another is the office of defense trade controls dtc in the state department authorized by the international traffic in arms regulations itar as a rule of thumb bxa which works with cocom has less stringent requirements but dtc which takes orders from nsa wants to see everything first and can refuse to transfer jurisdiction to bxa the newsgroup misc legal computing carries many interesting discussions on the laws surrounding cryptographic export what people think about those laws and many other complex issues which go beyond the scope of technical groups like sci crypt make sure to consult your lawyer before doing anything which will get you thrown in jail if you are lucky your lawyer might know a lawyer who has at least heard of the itar what is tempest tempest is a standard for electromagnetic shielding for computer equipment it was created in response to the discovery that information can be read from computer radiation e g from a crt at quite a distance and with little effort needless to say encryption doesn t do much good if the cleartext is available this way what are the beale ciphers and are they a hoax thanks to jim gillogly for this information and john king for corrections the story in a pamphlet by j b ward goes thomas jefferson beale and a party of adventurers accumulated a huge mass of treasure and buried it in bedford county virginia leaving three ciphers with an innkeeper the ciphers describe the location contents and intended beneficiaries of the treasure ward gives a decryption of the second cipher contents called b it was encrypted as a book cipher using the initial letters of the declaration of independence doi as key b and b are unsolved many documents have been tried as the key to b aficionados can join a group that attempts to solve b by various means with an eye toward splitting the treasure the beale cypher association p o box beaver falls pa you can get the ciphers from the rec puzzles faql by including the line send index in a message to netlib peregrine com and following the directions there are apparently several different versions of the cipher floating around the correct version is based on the pamphlet says john king kingj hpcc corp hp com some believe the story is a hoax kruh kru gives a long list of problems with the story gillogly gil decrypted b with the doi and found some unexpected strings including abfdefghiijklmmnohpp hammer president of the beale cypher association agrees that this string couldn t appear by chance but feels there must be an explanation gwyn sci crypt expert is unimpressed with this string what is the american cryptogram association and how do i get in touch the aca is an organization devoted to cryptography with an emphasis on cryptanalysis of systems that can be attacked either with pencil and paper or computers its organ the cryptogram includes articles and challenge ciphers among the more than cipher types in english and other languages are simple substitution playfair vigenere bifid bazeries grille homophonic and cryptarithm dues are for one year issues more outside of north america less for students under and seniors subscriptions should be sent to aca treasurer west hickory st mundelein il is rsa patented yes the patent number is filed granted for further discussion of this patent whether it should have been granted algorithm patents in general and related legal and moral issues see comp patents and misc legal computing for information about the league for programming freedom see ftppf note that one of the original purposes of comp patents was to collect questions such as should rsa be patented which often flooded sci crypt and other technical newsgroups into a more appropriate forum what about the voynich manuscript nelson reed edu nelson minar says there is a mailing list on the subject the address to write to subscribe to the vms mailing list is voynich request rand org the ftp archive is rand org pub voynich there s all sorts of information about the manuscript itself of course a good bibliography can be found on the ftp site kahn s the codebreakers gives a good introduction
sci.crypt	re how do they know what keys to ask for re clipper brad clarinet com brad templeton writes and of course you have to identify yourself to the phone company and since the phone company complies with court orders they will know the magic number of your chip when they sign out a warrant on you and then can present the warrant to the key escrow house who makes them forget and destroy all copies of the key once they ve decided you re not a criminal today just curious brad templeton clarinet communications corp sunnyvale ca any views expressed are those of myself and not my employer steven c johnson wb iru vk gds trw johnson trwacs fp trw com fp federal systems park drive phone fairfax virginia u s a fax any views expressed are those of myself and not my employer steven c johnson wb iru vk gds trw johnson trwacs fp trw com fp
sci.crypt	re source of random bits on a unix workstation for your application what you can do is to encrypt the real time clock value with a secret key well almost if i only had to solve the problem for myself and were willing to have to type in a second password the secret key whenever i logged in it could work however i m trying to create a solution that anyone can use and which once installed is just as effortless to start up as the non solution of just using xhost to control access i ve got religeous problems with storing secret keys on multiuser computers for a good discussion of cryptographically good random number generators check out the draft ietf security randomness txt internet draft available at your local friendly internet drafts repository thanks for the pointer it was good reading and i liked the idea of using several unrelated sources with a strong mixing function however unless i missed something the only source they suggested aside from a hardware rng that seems available and unguessable by an intruder when a unix is fresh booted is i o buffers related to network traffic i believe my solution basically uses that strategy without requiring me to reach into the kernel a reasonably source of randomness is the output of a cryptographic hash function e g md when fed with a large amount of more or less random data for example running md on dev mem is a slow but random enough source of random bits there are bound to be bits of entropy in the tens or hundreds of megabytes of data in a modern workstation s memory as a fair amount of them are system timers i o buffers etc i heard about this solution and it sounded good then i heard that folks were experiencing times of seconds to run this on reasonably configured workstations i m not willing to add that much delay to someone s login process my approach etherfind compress skip k takes a second or two to run i m considering writing the be all and end all of solutions that launches the md and simultaneously tries to suck bits off the net and if the net should be sitting so idle that it can t get k after compression before md finishes use the md this way i could have guaranteed good bits and a deterministic upper bound on login time and still have the common case of login take only a couple of extra seconds bennett bet sbi com
sci.crypt	non word password generator does anyone know of a non word password generator program for pc s i e it will produce a nonsense word but still be pronouncible e g lisgollan wanted to force users to adopt more secure passwords but still be memorable thanks george bolt p s please email me as well if possible george psychmips york ac uk
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article tcmayc m xv jex netcom com tcmay netcom com timothy c may writes getting the court order to reveal the key also makes decipherable all past conversations which may be on tape or disk or whatver as i understand the proposal i could be wrong but i ve seen no mention of session keys being the escrowed entities true in theory in practice the technology of cellular phones will probably be spread spectrum and quite difficult to record the crypttext without the key if the frequency path depends on they key as i understand it to it could be made effectively impossible to record once it hits land you can record it if you have telco access the telco isn t supposed to give that without a warrant that s the rule today but even so the evidence would not be admissible i think unless the judge so ordered i think that even interception of the crypttext without a warrant would be illegal cops can t record today s plain cellular calls and then ask a judge hey can we have permission to listen to those tapes can they worse of course if the government then uses this clinton clipper to argue for restrictions on unapproved encryption this is the main concern of most of us i think the camel s nose in the tent etc yes that is a major concern but i think that they think they can win just by having of the usa use this system they don t even have to care about the cautious that s left they don t catch the really smart crooks anyway john gotti who would have to be retarded not to realize he was likely to be wiretapped glibly chatted away on his tapped phone about murder plans that s why he s in jail now hard to believe but true this scheme can succeed without laws forbidding more which people would fight a lot harder they like this enough that they are dropping the so called digital telephony proposal according to rumours however the meaning of that is complex since they still want to get at the crypttext on telco systems and that requires a bit of work brad templeton clarinet communications corp sunnyvale ca
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more tcmay netcom com timothy c may writes brad templeton brad clarinet com wrote it occurs to me that if they get a wiretap order on you and the escrow houses release your code to the cops your code is now no longer secure it s in the hands of cops and while i am sure most of the time they are good their security will not be as good as the escrow houses what this effectively means is that if they perform a wiretap on you at the end of the wiretap they should be obligated to inform you that a tap was performed and replace for free the clipper chip in your cellular phone so that it is once again a code known only to the escrow houses getting the court order to reveal the key also makes decipherable all past conversations which may be on tape or disk or whatver as i understand the proposal i could be wrong but i ve seen no mention of session keys being the escrowed entities as the eff noted this raises further issues about the fruits of one bust leading to incrimination in other areas but is it any worse than the current unsecure system it becomes much worse of course if the government then uses this clinton clipper to argue for restrictions on unapproved encryption this is the main concern of most of us i think the camel s nose in the tent etc and it may also become much worse if the ostensible security is increased thus allowing greater access to central office records by the government the conversations being encrypted who will object to letting the government have access to them perhaps even automatically archiving large fractions this was one of the main objections to the s proposal that it would force telecom suppliers to provide easy access for the government one the government has had access to months or years of your encrypted conversations now all it takes is one misstep one violation that gets them the paperwork needed to decrypt all of them do we want anyone to have this kind of power tim may whose sig block may get him busted in the new regime a remark i heard the other day is beginning to take on increasingly frightening significance the comment was made that in other parts of the world the democrats note the big d would be known as socialists a note the small d democrat who wonders what thomas jefferson on this the th anniversary of his birth would have thought of the state of affairs between the government and the governed any views expressed are those of myself and not my employer steven c johnson wb iru vk gds trw johnson trwacs fp trw com fp federal systems park drive phone fairfax virginia u s a fax any views expressed are those of myself and not my employer steven c johnson wb iru vk gds trw johnson trwacs fp trw com fp
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption in article jhessec ltt imc netcom com jhesse netcom com john hesse writes stupid me i believed the democrats stood for principles of personal privacy while it was the neanderthal republicans that wanted into every aspect of our lives clinton is just more clever than the other guy looks like gun control for privacy technology one small step at a time remember defend firearms defeat dukakis followed by bush s soon after election support for gun control this is the democrats version defend free speech reject republicans followed by speech control wait a minute let me think about this hmmm i feel better now i believe the white house when they tell us this first step is in fact the final step all is ok we ve nothing to fear they re here to help us god bless america hey like the grrreat j r bob dobbs says you ve got to pull the wool over your own eyes pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at t bell labs m holmdel nj no i m from new jersey i only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	clipper crap encryption s dual edge sword encryption helps to protect the privacy of individuals and industry but it also can shield criminals and terrorists we need the clipper chip and other just a random passing thought but can anyone cite a documented use of encryption technology by criminals and terrorists excluding the iran contra gang shaun p hughes sphughes sfsuvax sfsu edu finger for pgp public key
sci.crypt	white house wiretap chip disinformation sheet fascinating most of the content of the white house announcements was in what was not said it gives us almost nothing of value threatens to take away a lot and does it with a sincere smile on its face and the nice friendly word management fact sheet public encryption management the first thing it doesn t say is we re giving you stronger encryption what it says is the u s government has developed a microcircuit that not only provides privacy through encryption that is substantially more robust than the current government standard but also permits escrowing of the keys needed to unlock the encryption the system for the escrowing of keys will allow the government to gain access to encrypted information only with appropriate legal authorization but des is strong enough that only the government can break it now so the major effect is to make it easier for government to break at best it makes it more difficult for the nsa to break since they need to get one of the two escrowed keys to do a brute force search for the other bit key similarly it didn t say we re making encryption is commercially available because encryption is already commercially available including forms the nsa may not be able to break like triple des or idea and phone companies could offer des based systems now if they were convinced the government would let them and they could make enough money the next thing it didn t say is we re making encryption legal because of course encryption has always been legal and the president can t change the first amendment merely by decree what it did say was in making this decision i do not intend to prevent the private sector from developing or the government from approving other microcircuits or algorithms that are equally effective in assuring both privacy and a secure key escrow system which clearly means we re making encryption illegal unless we get your keys soon once business buys into this another thing it didn t say is we re going to ask congress for money to do lots more wiretapping because of course there s a budget crisis and congress might debate the policy issues or not give them the cash what it did say was the attorney general will procure and utilize encryption devices to the extent needed to preserve the government s ability to conduct lawful electronic surveillance and to fulfill the need for secure law enforcement communications further the attorney general shall utilize funds from the department of justice asset forfeiture super surplus fund to effect this purchase which means we ve got money congress can t control and we re going to buy lots of wiretapping equipment with it to detect non approved crypto that s what preserve the government s ability to conduct surveillance means pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at t bell labs m holmdel nj no i m from new jersey i only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow interestingly enough in designing the escrow we may want to use some rather unusual technology such as sealed boxes of paper or destructive read memory rather than typical computer databases which is fun for a database of hundreds of millions of keys the greatest danger of the escrow database if it were kept on disk would be the chance that a complete copy could somehow leak out you can design lots of protection but with enough corruption a complete copy is always possible storing it on paper or something very hard to copy at once may actually make sense or a medium that can t be copied for example something with very slow access times or which leaves a destructive trail if it is even read of course then it s hard to backup however i think the consequences of no backup the data is not there when a warrant comes are worse than the consequences of a secret backup an audit trail that reveals when data has been access that can t be erased by the humans involved is also necessary brad templeton clarinet communications corp sunnyvale ca
sci.crypt	re clinton boost in spy spending right on the heels of the clinton registered encryption key debacle comes sphughes sfsuvax sfsu edu shaun p hughes writes from yesterdays s f chronicle president clinton has asked congress for authority to spend more money on spy agencies satellites and other intelligence activities in fiscal than it allotted for congressional and administration officials say clinton had promised to slash intelligence spending by billion over four years although the size of the nations vast intelligence budget remains an official secret administration and congressional officials disclosed yesterday that it would total about billion if the increase requested by clinton is approved wonder how much of that extra money goes into coming up with encryption schemes they can easily crack the theorem theorem if if then then
sci.crypt	re white house wiretap chip disinformation sheet wcs anchor ho att com bill stewart writes fascinating most of the content of the white house announcements was in what was not said it gives us almost nothing of value threatens to take away a lot and does it with a sincere smile on its face and the nice friendly word management the computer err government is your friend have a nice day under penalty of law to refuse praise is to seek praise twice
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow jhesse netcom com john hesse writes oh great wonderful news nobody can listen in except the feds and anybody who can get the keys from the escrow company this is a database that s going to take plenty of updating they think they can keep it secure please and that s just primary not secondary sources such as police using the key under a warrant would anyone be surprised if they just neglected to erase the key if it turned out they couldn t nail you on anything nourish a waif and it will pick out your eyes
sci.crypt	re how to detect use of an illegal cipher in article qnmnp db sol tis com mjr tis com marcus j ranum writes traffic that way your traffic looks normal and perhaps anyone desiring to listen in won t even bother since they know nobody s going to really trust crypto that has classified internals for important stuff nice to think but naive the fact is that millions of people today are sending highly confidential information over unencoded easy to receive cellular phones they figure the chances of being heard are small so they risk it and of people don t understand crypto the way the least of the sci crypt newbies does if clinton tells them it s good crypto they ll believe him and send important stuff over it and be thankful that they re no longer using clear voice fm cellular phones only a tiny fraction of people will want more crypto worse in the eyes of the government which swears up and down the algorithim is spook level secure and it may indeed be the only reason you could possibly want this extra level is to avoid police by using it you ll attract attention as a likely lawbreaker your honour the suspect suddenly started using another level of cryptography and we can t tap his phone calls any more he must have something to hide please sign the warrant to search his house brad templeton clarinet communications corp sunnyvale ca
sci.crypt	re white house public encryption management fact sheet in article c lgaz dove nist gov clipper csrc ncsl nist gov clipper chip announcement writes distribution na no thanks this topic is of interest to a much wider audience in making this decision i do not intend to prevent the private sector from developing or the government from approving other microcircuits or algorithms that are equally effective in assuring both privacy and a secure key escrow system in making this decision i intend to prevent the private sector from developing except with the government s approval other microcircuits or algorithms that are more effective in assuring privacy apb alan barrett dept of electronic eng univ of natal durban south africa rfc barrett ee und ac za
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article tcmayc m xv jex netcom com tcmay netcom com timothy c may writes but is it any worse than the current unsecure system it becomes much worse of course if the government then uses this clinton clipper to argue for restrictions on unapproved encryption this is the main concern of most of us i think the camel s nose in the tent etc excuse me this has already happened there s a couple of humps in the tent already ask the folks at qualcomm what became of the non trivial encryption scheme they proposed for use in their cdma digitial cellular phone standard there already are restrictions in place louis mamakos
sci.crypt	re fifth amendment and passwords in article apr linus mitre org ptrei bistromath mitre org peter trei writes judge i grant you immunity from whatever may be learned from the key itself you the keyphrase is i confess to deliberately evading copyright the file encoded with this keyphrase contains illegal scans of copyrighted peanuts strips judge and cp oh how will they get you now i m not saying that they won t or can t or even that they shouldn t but what legal mechanism will they use should we be crossposting this to misc legal hm could another court try you via a bypass of the double jeopardy amendment like they are doing in the lapd trial ie your judge is a state judge and then a federal judge retries you under the justification that its not the same trail kenneth ng please reply to ken blue njit edu for now all this might be an elaborate simulation running in a little device sitting on someone s table j l picard st tng
sci.crypt	re the old key registration idea in article rlglendec lrwc c netcom com rlglende netcom com robert lewis glendenning writes i have been chided for stating that dorthy denning was intellectually dishonest in the acm debate and in this newsgroup i have previously refrained from suggesting that she is arguing on behalf of consulting clients now i say that it is clear that dorthy denning has been functioning as a lobbyist not a computer scientist she has used legal ethics truth is what you can convince anyone of not scientific ethics truth is understanding the external world maybe we can revoke her acm membership i suggest that you refrain from such insults unless and until you can produce some evidence to back up that claim given the measures proposed or passed in the last year or so such as s and the scanner ban her proposal need not be any more than her own attempt at a technical solution it s entirely possible in fact that it was the notion of splitting the key which came up in the debate that softened this proposal
sci.crypt	re source of random bits on a unix workstation in article pivot sbi com bet sbi com bennett todd salomon brothers inc ny writes i heard about this solution and it sounded good then i heard that folks were experiencing times of seconds to run this on reasonably configured workstations i m not willing to add that much delay to someone s login process my approach etherfind compress skip k takes a second or two to run i m considering writing the be all and end all of solutions that launches the md and simultaneously tries to suck bits off the net and if the net should be sitting so idle that it can t get k after compression before md finishes use the md this way i could have guaranteed good bits and a deterministic upper bound on login time and still have the common case of login take only a couple of extra seconds seconds to hash m of core i bet i know who the source of your information is no it s not acceptable if it s part of your login process but if you are going to use network traffic as the source of pseudo random information do the right thing and pass it through a cryptographic hash function not a compressor aside from the fact that it will run faster it will give better results think of a cryptographic hash as a function that distills randomness something along the lines of etherfind t x n dd bs k count dev null md should do the trick t gives you timestamps and the lack of u makes sure that dd does not get ten lines as opposed to ten k the above takes a couple of seconds on a lightly loaded ethernet bennett bet sbi com ji
sci.crypt	re how do they know what keys to ask for re clipper in article johnson trwacs johnson trwacs fp trw com steve johnson writes brad clarinet com brad templeton writes and of course you have to identify yourself to the phone company and since the phone company complies with court orders they will know the magic number of your chip when they sign out a warrant on you and then can present the warrant to the key escrow house lets hope years ago a telecom tech refused to tap a line unless he saw the warrant the managment type who told him to do it fired him the appeal against the dismissal was lost who makes them forget and destroy all copies of the key once they ve decided you re not a criminal today just curious good luck paul
sci.crypt	re what is going on in article apr cc curtin edu au zrepachol cc curtin edu au paul repacholi writes if you can t be bothered reading get the video manufacturing consent in reply to mail queries i don t know if a video is available yet i asked about a month ao and was told rsn several have also asked which of chomskys books my answer is all of them and anything else you can get as well how ever due to irritations like the hr day etc i would say manafacturing conscent first them th last parts of detering democracy ie the bits about the domestic rd world chilling anyone at mit have a good st noam bibliography paul
sci.crypt	re white house public encryption management fact sheet i have a question about digital communications encryption the fact sheet mentioned encryption decryption microcircuitry with special keys for law enforcement for wire tapping purposes if i wanted to couldn t i develop encryption of my own that is if me and a partner in crime had unique encryption decryption devices installed before the tappable one couldn t we circumvent the keys system or replace it i d be really interested in knowing how the e d microcircuits might be made to prevent such befuddlement laymans language please maybe a bit technical please e mail to me as i m not in net news as much as i d like to be pete deuelpm craft camp clarkson edu deuelpm craft camp clarkson edu regret is a rough sheet to sleep on herman brooks
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow in article strnlghtc lgfi jqa netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes though some may argue about the nose of the camel it s worth noting that the government proposal is limited to scrambled telephony if it is only used for that purpose and does not extend to electronic mail or file encryption then it is an improvement over the current mass produced standard civilian technology which with a few exceptions is limited to easy to break inverters try reading between the lines david there are strong hints in there that they re angling for nren next and the only conceivable meaning of applying this particular technology to a computer network is that they intend it to be used in exclusion to any other means of encryption don t be lulled by the wedge because its end looks so thin graham
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in apr clarinet com brad clarinet com sez do the police normally reveal every tap they do even if no charges are laid in many ways it would be a positive step if they had to judges set time limits on warrants i assume under the relevant federal law usc sec d the authorizing judge must notify the targets within days after the tap period with extensions expires this is the normal practice of course no wiretap law would be complete without the unless clause which in subsection d reads like this on an ex parte showing i e by the gov t without opposition since that would obviously involve notice to the targets of good cause to a judge of competent jurisdiction the serving of the inventory required by this subsection the order itself dates of interception etc may be postponed emphasis added followups directed to a few select groups moral always choose the right sort of parents before you start in to be rough george ade mark eckenwiler eck panix com cmcl panix eck
sci.crypt	re how do they know what keys to ask for re clipper in article apr clarinet com brad clarinet com brad templeton writes the actual algorithm is classified however their main thrust here is for cellular phones and encryption is only over the radio end not end to end i think end to end will come later encrypting just the radio link doesn t make sense to me that means the telco has to do the decryption and hence they need the keys how are they going to be kept secure
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article tcmayc m xv jex netcom com tcmay netcom com timothy c may writes but is it any worse than the current unsecure system it becomes much worse of course if the government then uses this clinton clipper to argue for restrictions on unapproved encryption this is the main concern of most of us i think the camel s nose in the tent etc not to pick on mr may in particular of course but isn t this kind of the domino theory when one little country falls its neighbor will surely follow and before you know it we re all mining salt in siberia for not turning in our captain crunch secret decoder rings surely the hypothesis relying on the least wild assumptions is to take this at face value our lads at the fort were asked to cook up something that s pretty secure with a key that can be escrowed neatly and they did the government plans to sell this thing for the reasons they state yes those evil guys in the fbi can probably with some effort abuse the system i got news for you if the evil guys in the fbi decide they want to persecute you they re gonna and you re gonna hate it fact is the fbi doesn t want to listen to your phone calls and if they do and if you re using triple des they ll just get a parabolic microphone and point it at your head this is pretty clearly an effort by the government to do exactly what they re saying they re doing as is typical with governments it s mismanaged and full of holes and compromises as is typical with our government it s not too bad could be worse my interpretation andrew tim may whose sig block may get him busted in the new regime isn t this just a little melodramatic
sci.crypt	powerful similarity too a unix tool of cryptographic significance is available for anonymous ftp agrep a fast approximate pattern matching tool source code project available from cs arizona edu in directory agrep agrep is a very fast fuzzy search tool with a tremendous number of powerful search options the one most obviously applicable to cryptography key selection is to be able to specify the similarity of matches in the data for example say you make up a password phrase of qimwe l of course you rightly suspect that this key itself is not in any dictionary or word list but how close is it to en entry that could be varied by some crack program to brute force search for it you use agrep to find out looking with argument for none one or two errors no matches good so far but agrep qimwe l bigwordandphraselist finds that the pattern qimwe l is too close to the pattern imsel part of himself and a host of others to be of any cryptographic value as a key an error of level two corresponds to a simple transposition of letters like teh for the a minimally acceptable password would have to pass as least level in order not immediately ruled out as even a remote possibility of being a good password in real cryptographic use my personal passphrases clear at least level on my rather large meg word and phrase lists and for searching for key words in human typed data lots o typos the tool is unexcelled for example for example say i want to find out what people think about gibson s sf book neuromancer in the huge sf lover s archives even with an error distance specification as small as of i will find all those people who think the title was necromancer or other common typos why miss anything also the program can look for up to patterns in parallel at boyer moore sublinear speeds great for a nsa wannabe to look for your name terrorists names special tagalog or religious words etc in the news or e mail spool directories you can even search for ciphertext by using say random three byte combinations and eliminate all texts that don t score the x chi square birthday hits on message size y you think some crypto terrorist is try to foil you by changing the pattern on you no problem try agrep p nsa to find nsa national security agency nsecag no such agency national scrabble association n s a etc you can also specify fixed areas looking for license plate xyz when you know that the letters are correct you might say agrep xyz licenseplatedatabase will find all plates starting with xyz with up to two errors addition substitution deletion in the number area you can also weight the relative cost for substiutions additions or deletion errors for example when searching dna patterns for a particular protein combination you might know that some kinds of damage cause the a nucelotide to drop out more than other errors you could adjust for this bias by setting dc where you set the deletion cost to count as c errors a steganographic use i even used agrep steg eograp e just now to find the correct spelling would be to intentionally introduce errors of a certain type and magnitude into a plaintext and then later recover the orginal it via an agrep pipe lots of possibilities here when only outlaws can have ciphertext also with agrep s powerful extraction options it makes it easy to abstract the hits into a useful form for example agrep d from pgp passphrase zimmerman nsa says output the entire mail record delimited by from that contains pgp and contains either passphrase zimmerman or nsa and agrep has been measured an order of magnitude faster than the second best similarity tool publicly available as usual i will be glad to e mail the source and docs to those who reqest them by e mail if they cannot do an anonymous ftp get this now it is too powerful to stay in the hands of the nsa grady ward vendor to the nsa and proud of it grady netcom com ef e ad d d c f fc ac f d f e f
sci.crypt	pgp vs i ve seen pgp mentioned for the mac platform i use on ms dos is there a for ms dos if so a site or two that has it available i d need executables although source would be nice to review what was fixed or changed from thanks mwe mearle netcom com finger for pgp public key
sci.crypt	re what is going on zrepachol cc curtin edu au paul repacholi writes in article apr cc curtin edu au zrepachol cc curtin edu au paul repacholi writes if you can t be bothered reading get the video manufacturing consent in reply to mail queries i don t know if a video is available yet i asked about a month ao and was told rsn yes it is from the national film board of canada guy gthomas native ed bc ca
sci.crypt	clipper some new thoughts i d desparately prefer it if we didn t rehash the same arguments that went on ad infinitum last time that s especially true for sci crypt for that matter i ve created alt privacy clipper since the traffic is appearing in many different groups right now i m going to focus here on some technical aspects of the plan hence my followup to sci crypt frankly if you re not an absolutist your feelings may turn on some of these issues for example with an bit key simply splitting it into two bit pieces is much less acceptable than other schemes because it means that if just one repository is shall we say overly pliable a would be eavesdropper would need to recover just more bits of key i need not point out in this newsgroup that that s pretty easy to do by exhaustive search a slightly more complex scheme xor ing the key with a random number and then with its complement would produce two bit subkeys neither of which is useful alone that variant is much more resistant to attack clearly one can get even more sophisticated to protect the subkeys even more other thoughts some people have noted the size and complexity of the databases necessary but the id strings the phones emit could be their back door key double encrypted with the escrow repositories public keys for that matter they could do that only with session keys and have no back door at all in that case the fbi would have to bring every intercept to the repositories to be decrypted this would answer many of the objections along the lines of how do you make sure they stop we can even combine that with a variant of the digital telephony back door have the switch do the tap but with a digitally signed record of the time phone number etc of the call that provides proof to the escrow agents that the tap was done in compliance with the terms of the warrant i can suggest other variations too suppose each clipper chip had public key pairs each would be used times after which you d need more keying material not a bad idea in any event this could be used to enforce time limits or rather usage limits on each warrant the keys the repository agents would deliver wouldn t last for very long i suspect that the cryptographic algorithm itself is secure apart from the obvious why push a weak algorithm when you ve already got the back door i think that the government is still genuinely concerned about foreign espionage especially aimed at commercial targets this scheme lets the spooks have their cake and eat it too i ve heard rumors over the years that some factions within nsa were unhappy with des because it was too good not that they couldn t crack it but it was much too expensive to do so as easily as they d want they re keeping the details secret so that others don t build their own implementations without the back door the cryptographic protocol though is another matter i see no valid reasons for keeping it secret and as i hope i ve shown above there are a lot of ways to do things that aren t quite as bad
sci.crypt	how does it really work was re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption this announcement is somewhat disconcerting it doesn t do anything evil in and of itself but bodes badly for the future of open algorithms and standards in information security i won t start panicking until unless des or rsa or stuff like that is prohibited but i m a little anxious no doubt it won t be long before someone posts explaining how this just a small part of some far ranging and long lived nsa pkp irs fbi cia handguncontrolinc clinton conspiracy to subvert freedom democracy and mathematics my feeling is that the administration probably isn t that worried about things like des and rsa and pgp and ripem since they ll never be used by a group much wider than us computer geeks the fact that this just came out now suggests one of two things the nsa has been working on this for a long time and it only just now happened to be ready to release to the world at this time the nsa has been working on this for a long time but wasn t able to get the bush administration to go along with this plan i find it unlikely that this would have been because of a sympathy for the unescrowed use of cryptography more likely the administration felt that even escrowed secret algorithm and for all we know trivially breakable cryptography should not be made widely available thus said clipper csrc ncsl nist gov clipper chip announcement this new technology will help companies protect proprietary information protect the privacy of personal phone conversations and prevent unauthorized release of data transmitted electronically at the same time this technology preserves the ability of federal state and local law enforcement agencies to intercept lawfully the phone conversations of criminals the majority of the discussion involving this clipper chip seems to pertain to the encryption of telephone conversations does anyone know if that means this chip is designed to work primarily with analog signals the language sort of suggests this but it s hard to say the main thing i just don t get is whether this chip implements symmetric or asymmetric cryptographic techniques anybody know i m guessing symmetric but they don t get very clear about it if it is symmetric how is it useful for anything other than link level encryption with an identical chip at each end how can you negotiate a per session key using symmetric cryptography without using a trusted third party who knows your key or does it even use a per session key if it s asymmetric what about pkp s patents which they claim cover all methods of doing asymmetric cryptography are they getting royalties or is hiding infringement the real reason for keeping the algorithm secret marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu mime ripem accepted kirk i won t hurt you alien you hit me kirk well i won t hit you again
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more i change login passwords every couple of months i sure would suck if i had to get a new sparc station everytime i wanted to do this it seems that this is what they expect you to do if you want to routinely change your password on your phone i m sure the government contractor doesn t mind but a system where you can cheaply change keys des has inherent security advantages regardless of the algorithms involved tim cuffel finger for pgp the cia has admitted that the assassination of saddam hussien was one of their goals they failed of course seems as though that motorcade through downtown dallas trick only works once
sci.crypt	re how to detect use of an illegal cipher in article betel camelot betel camelot bradley edu robert crawford writes jay fenton fenton kaleida com writes how can the government tell which encryption method one is using without being able to decode the traffic i e in order to accuse me of using an unauthorized strong encryption technique they would have to take both keys out of escrow run them against my ciphertext and draw a blank i was thinking about this also it s quite possible the system transmits in clear the serial number of the device being used that way they can start a tap get the serial number and use the warrant for the first tap to get the key if they tap someone who s apparently using encryption but don t find that prefix then they ll assume it s an un authorized encryption scheme from the limited details released so far it seems that the clipper chip system must employ some sort of public key cryptography otherwise the key management problems inherent to symetric ciphers would make the system unworkable it probably has some sort of public key exchange that takes place at the start of each call thats how they would identify the private key in their data base this means that either the nsa has developed some non rsa public key algorythm or the feds have decided to subsidize pkp rsadsi the former is rather an exciting posibility since keeping the algorythm secret while making chip implimentations widely avalibe will be exceptionally hard if the feds are forced to make it avalible in order to gain public acceptance than that could break rsa s stranglehold on public key crypto in the u s as for my impressions of the whole scheme it seems that instead of trying to ban strong crypto they are trying to co opt it their contention that they need to keep the algorythm secret to protect the security of the key registration suggests possible inherent weakness to the algorythm more likely is that they dont want anyone constructing black market devices which dont have the keys registered anyone else notice that in their q a session they talk about releasing the keys only to people with proper autiorization but carefully dance around stating that the keys will simply have to be supeonaed they seem to be trying to keep open the posibility of obtaining keys without court order even though tapping a phone line requires one also pick up on their implicit threat of eithe accept this or we ll ban strong crypto outright i dont trust this plan at all and plan to oppose it in all legal ways possible bill smythe
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more tcmay netcom com timothy c may writes but is it any worse than the current unsecure system it becomes much worse of course if the government then uses this clinton clipper to argue for restrictions on unapproved encryption this is the main concern of most of us i think the camel s nose in the tent etc i agree this is the danger i see not the system itself that is to say this is a political issue not a technical one amanda walker intercon systems corporation
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow gtoal news ibmpcug co uk graham toal writes try reading between the lines david there are strong hints in there that they re angling for nren next where i honestly didn t see any and the only conceivable meaning of applying this particular technology to a computer network is that they intend it to be used in exclusion to any other means of encryption i disagree if for no other reason than that there are already other standards in place besides even if they restrict encryption on the nren who cares most of the internet is commercial anyway the nren is only for geovernment and university research read the proposals it s a data superhighway for cray users not anything having to do with the internet amanda walker intercon systems corporation
sci.crypt	new clipper chip proposal from the guv i saw this article posted in a local newsgroup i haven t seen it or any followup traffic relating to it in these groups or other groups which i subscribe to so i am posting it here so others can read it check it out and comment on it and provide ideas for handling these sorts of things i have no verification to the accuracy or lack of accuracy of this article but if accurate i find it extremely disturbing especially in light of various abuses of the ssn number regarding privacy i understand it is now to be required in ca to renew a drivers license or to register a car and other proposals regarding smart national identity cards wiretap proposals and such one simply wonders what other gems are in the wings ready to be sprung on the people by our government perhaps suggestions and ideas for preventing this and other such proposals from acquiring the force of law would be useful the cost simply outweighs any possible benefits imo btw reading this makes me think of some ideas a prof denning has been promoting in an even more disturbing form that said with no further comment the article follows begin included article note this file will also be available via anonymous file transfer from csrc ncsl nist gov in directory pub nistnews and via the nist computer security bbs at the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april statement by the press secretary the president today announced a new initiative that will bring the federal government together with industry in a voluntary program to improve the security and privacy of telephone communications while meeting the legitimate needs of law enforcement the initiative will involve the creation of new products to accelerate the development and use of advanced and secure telecommunications networks and wireless communications links for too long there has been little or no dialogue between our private sector and the law enforcement community to resolve the tension between economic vitality and the real challenges of protecting americans rather than use technology to accommodate the sometimes competing interests of economic growth privacy and law enforcement previous policies have pitted government against industry and the rights of privacy against law enforcement sophisticated encryption technology has been used for years to protect electronic funds transfer it is now being used to protect electronic mail and computer files while encryption technology can help americans protect business secrets and the unauthorized release of personal information it also can be used by terrorists drug dealers and other criminals a state of the art microcircuit called the clipper chip has been developed by government engineers the chip represents a new approach to encryption technology it can be used in new relatively inexpensive encryption devices that can be attached to an ordinary telephone it scrambles telephone communications using an encryption algorithm that is more powerful than many in commercial use today this new technology will help companies protect proprietary information protect the privacy of personal phone conversations and prevent unauthorized release of data transmitted electronically at the same time this technology preserves the ability of federal state and local law enforcement agencies to intercept lawfully the phone conversations of criminals a key escrow system will be established to ensure that the clipper chip is used to protect the privacy of law abiding americans each device containing the chip will have two unique keys numbers that will be needed by authorized government agencies to decode messages encoded by the device when the device is manufactured the two keys will be deposited separately in two key escrow data bases that will be established by the attorney general access to these keys will be limited to government officials with legal authorization to conduct a wiretap the clipper chip technology provides law enforcement with no new authorities to access the content of the private conversations of americans to demonstrate the effectiveness of this new technology the attorney general will soon purchase several thousand of the new devices in addition respected experts from outside the government will be offered access to the confidential details of the algorithm to assess its capabilities and publicly report their findings the chip is an important step in addressing the problem of encryption s dual edge sword encryption helps to protect the privacy of individuals and industry but it also can shield criminals and terrorists we need the clipper chip and other approaches that can both provide law abiding citizens with access to the encryption they need and prevent criminals from using it to hide their illegal activities in order to assess technology trends and explore new approaches like the key escrow system the president has directed government agencies to develop a comprehensive policy on encryption that accommodates the privacy of our citizens including the need to employ voice or data encryption for business purposes the ability of authorized officials to access telephone calls and data under proper court or other legal order when necessary to protect our citizens the effective and timely use of the most modern technology to build the national information infrastructure needed to promote economic growth and the competitiveness of american industry in the global marketplace and the need of u s companies to manufacture and export high technology products the president has directed early and frequent consultations with affected industries the congress and groups that advocate the privacy rights of individuals as policy options are developed the administration is committed to working with the private sector to spur the development of a national information infrastructure which will use new telecommunications and computer technologies to give americans unprecedented access to information this infrastructure of high speed networks information superhighways will transmit video images hdtv programming and huge data files as easily as today s telephone system transmits voice since encryption technology will play an increasingly important role in that infrastructure the federal government must act quickly to develop consistent comprehensive policies regarding its use the administration is committed to policies that protect all americans right to privacy while also protecting them from those who break the law further information is provided in an accompanying fact sheet the provisions of the president s directive to acquire the new encryption technology are also available for additional details call mat heyman national institute of standards and technology questions and answers about the clinton administration s telecommunications initiative q does this approach expand the authority of government agencies to listen in on phone conversations a no clipper chip technology provides law enforcement with no new authorities to access the content of the private conversations of americans q suppose a law enforcement agency is conducting a wiretap on a drug smuggling ring and intercepts a conversation encrypted using the device what would they have to do to decipher the message a they would have to obtain legal authorization normally a court order to do the wiretap in the first place they would then present documentation of this authorization to the two entities responsible for safeguarding the keys and obtain the keys for the device being used by the drug smugglers the key is split into two parts which are stored separately in order to ensure the security of the key escrow system q who will run the key escrow data banks a the two key escrow data banks will be run by two independent entities at this point the department of justice and the administration have yet to determine which agencies will oversee the key escrow data banks q how strong is the security in the device how can i be sure how strong the security is a this system is more secure than many other voice encryption systems readily available today while the algorithm will remain classified to protect the security of the key escrow system we are willing to invite an independent panel of cryptography experts to evaluate the algorithm to assure all potential users that there are no unrecognized vulnerabilities q whose decision was it to propose this product a the national security council the justice department the commerce department and other key agencies were involved in this decision this approach has been endorsed by the president the vice president and appropriate cabinet officials q who was consulted the congress industry a we have on going discussions with congress and industry on encryption issues and expect those discussions to intensify as we carry out our review of encryption policy we have briefed members of congress and industry leaders on the decisions related to this initiative q will the government provide the hardware to manufacturers a the government designed and developed the key access encryption microcircuits but it is not providing the microcircuits to product manufacturers product manufacturers can acquire the microcircuits from the chip manufacturer that produces them q who provides the clipper chip a mykotronx programs it at their facility in torrance california and will sell the chip to encryption device manufacturers the programming function could be licensed to other vendors in the future q how do i buy one of these encryption devices a we expect several manufacturers to consider incorporating the clipper chip into their devices q if the administration were unable to find a technological solution like the one proposed would the administration be willing to use legal remedies to restrict access to more powerful encryption devices a this is a fundamental policy question which will be considered during the broad policy review the key escrow mechanism will provide americans with an encryption product that is more secure more convenient and less expensive than others readily available today but it is just one piece of what must be the comprehensive approach to encryption technology which the administration is developing the administration is not saying since encryption threatens the public safety and effective law enforcement we will prohibit it outright as some countries have effectively done nor is the u s saying that every american as a matter of right is entitled to an unbreakable commercial encryption product there is a false tension created in the assessment that this issue is an either or proposition rather both concerns can be and in fact are harmoniously balanced through a reasoned balanced approach such as is proposed with the clipper chip and similar encryption techniques q what does this decision indicate about how the clinton administration s policy toward encryption will differ from that of the bush administration a it indicates that we understand the importance of encryption technology in telecommunications and computing and are committed to working with industry and public interest groups to find innovative ways to protect americans privacy help businesses to compete and ensure that law enforcement agencies have the tools they need to fight crime and terrorism q will the devices be exportable will other devices that use the government hardware a voice encryption devices are subject to export control requirements case by case review for each export is required to ensure appropriate use of these devices the same is true for other encryption devices one of the attractions of this technology is the protection it can give to u s companies operating at home and abroad with this in mind we expect export licenses will be granted on a case by case basis for u s companies seeking to use these devices to secure their own communications abroad we plan to review the possibility of permitting wider exportability of these products end included article pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow in article qp d e dorothy ibmpcug co uk gtoal news ibmpcug co uk graham toal writes try reading between the lines david there are strong hints in there that they re angling for nren next and the only conceivable meaning of applying this particular technology to a computer network is that they intend it to be used in exclusion to any other means of encryption umm i beg to differ with the phrase only conceivable meaning the sdns protocols for example make explicit provision for multiple encryption systems as does pem and i d love to see how they d mandate this new system for pem without disclosing it mind you i m not saying that multiple algorithms will actually be used but the relevant technologies certainly provide for them which certainly casts doubt on your choice of words
sci.crypt	don t fight clipper chip subvert or replace it clipper chip is a response to the fact that there is no business or professional body in a position to establish a standard and provide chipsets to implement it for analog or digial transmission systems rsa might be in position to do it if they had active cooperation of a couple of manufacturers of cellular phones or desktop phones large companies in the voice data comm business are out because they all have contracts with the gov which would be used to pressure them if we as professionals in crypto organizations eff etc were to put our collective minds and interests toward establishing a crypto standard for transmission and getting our companies to implement it we might avoid government control otherwise i think it will happen to us by default gov isn t probably strong enough or foolish enough to prevent strong crypt they are strong enough and we may be foolish enough to push through the clipper chip is rsa independt of the gov enough to spearhead this i for one would gladly pay royalties via purchasing secure phones if not this we should provide an algorithm which can be implemented in either sw or hw and publish it then push to make it the defacto standard in the way that pgp and ripem are becoming such we are opposing charging the bunker we should be nimble and clever the gov is strong not clever lew lew glendenning rlglende netcom com perspective is worth iq points niels bohr or somebody like that
sci.crypt	re trinomial based prng i tried to mail peter boucher who posted the question but my e mail bounced so apologies to thsoe who are not interested trinomials are all of the form x a x b where a have you read bremner a on trinomials of type x n ax m math scand pp zbl mr k ljunggren w on the irreducibility of certain trinomials and quadrinomials math scand pp tverberg h on the irreducibility of the trinomials x n mpm x m mpm math scand pp tverberg h on cubic factors of certain trinomials math scand pp zbl james davenport jhd maths bath ac uk
sci.crypt	re clipper crap encryption s dual edge sword encryption helps to protect the privacy of individuals and industry but it also can shield criminals and terrorists we need the clipper chip and other necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom it is the argument of tyrants it is the creed of slaves william pitt carl kadie i do not represent any organization this is just me kadie cs uiuc edu
sci.crypt	re don t fight clipper chip subvert or replace it robert lewis glendenning rlglende netcom com wrote clipper chip is a response to the fact that there is no business or professional body in a position to establish a standard and provide chipsets to implement it for analog or digial transmission systems rsa might be in position to do it if they had active cooperation of a couple of manufacturers of cellular phones or desktop phones is rsa independt of the gov enough to spearhead this i for one would gladly pay royalties via purchasing secure phones hear hear i completely agree that we need to work quickly to establish alternatives to the government s clinton clipper as brad templeton and others have noted once the clipper becomes ensconced in enough phones there will be enormous pressure to make it the legal standard and it will become the market standard as well there is a lot of confusion in the proposal about whether the use of clipper is mandated about whether non escrow alternatives will be allowed etc there are also unclear issues about how hard or how illegal it will be to make workalikes which meet the standard but which generate phony or untappable keys i m sure the next several weeks will see these issues thrashed out in this and other groups meanwhile i d be interested to hear rsa data security s reaction often criticized in this group for their licensing policies the usual complaints about mailsafe costing too much at or so and the general issue of software patents we may find that allying ourselves with rsa is the best thing we can do what s a mere licensing fee when our liberty may be at stake if everyone who wanted true security paid say for a lifetime use of all of rsa s patents which expire in the period or so then rsa would make tons of money and be happy i m sure a small price to pay for those to whom sounds like too much i m sure the actual terms could be different spread out over several years whatever to me it s a small price to pay strong crypto means strong privacy escrowing keys sending copies of keys to large databases and splitting keys into two bit pieces all done with secret and non analyzable protocols and algorithms is not strong crypto whatever some of us may think about the abstract principles of patenting number theory applications this minor issue pales in comparison with the potential dangers of the clipper proposal note that i said potential we ll presumably learn more in the coming months the rsa algorithms are at least public have been analyzed and attacked for years and source code is available to better ensure no deliberate weakenesses or trapdoors i know of a number of groups putting together voice encryption systems using off the shelf hardware like soundblaster boards for the pc and celp type software the new generations of pcs using fast s and pentiums are fast enough to do real time voice encryption combined with diffie hellman key exchange this should provide an alternative to the clipper system of course we don t really know if the administration proposes to outlaw competing systems it seems to me that their goal of tapping terrorists child pornographers and hilary bashers would be thwarted if low cost alternatives to clipper proliferated not to defend child pornographers or terrorists but limiting basic freedoms to catch a few criminals is not the american way of doing things end of soapbox mode i suggest we in these groups set aside any differences we may have had with rsa and don t look at me i have both macpgp and a fully legal copy of mailsafe and instead work with them as quickly as we can rsa jim are you listening tim may p s i reserve the right to retract these opinions if it should turn out that rsa data security was involved in the clipper proposal timothy c may crypto anarchy encryption digital money tcmay netcom com anonymous networks digital pseudonyms zero knowledge reputations information markets w a s t e aptos ca black markets collapse of governments higher power public key pgp and mailsafe available
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow one presumes the system could work as follows a blank clips are manufactured by mykotronx and vlsi the number produced is carefully audited and they are shipped to the first escrow house it programs the chips with its half the key and prints out a paper slip with the key half and non secret chip serial number the reams of paper are filed in locked boxes in the vault a fuse is burnt in the chip so that the key is now unreadable the chip then goes to the next escrow house where the same thing is done this continues through n escrow houses perhaps could be more than the last one provides the chip to the cellular phone maker and yes this has to be a public key system or it would be almost impossible to handle it might not be rsa but that does not mean that pkp doesn t get paid until pkp has the patent on the general concept of public key encryption as well as the particular implementation known as rsa brad templeton clarinet communications corp sunnyvale ca
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow in article qnupd jpm news intercon com amanda intercon com amanda walker writes jhesse netcom com john hesse writes oh great wonderful news nobody can listen in except the feds hey it s better than the status quo i am far less worried about the feds tapping my phone than high school scanner surfers who get their kicks out of eavesdropping on cellular and cordless phone calls really why are so you worried about high school kids getting their kicks with scanners as compared to what the feds can do and have done to their targets better than the status quo isn t good enough i d say the same technology could be implemented without a back door open to the state we all know about power and corruption but we all know that abuse is something that only happens to the other guy amanda walker intercon systems corporation john hesse a man jhesse netcom com a plan moss beach calif a canal bob
sci.crypt	re patents was rc rc in article matt wardibm med yale edu matt wardsgi med yale edu matt healy writes and bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de vesselin bontchev wrote and ahaley eoe co uk andrew haley writes about coca cola and pepsi cola and what they can teach us surely if we must use pop patent law examples to discuss rc and rc it would make more sense to consider the case of rc cola jim reeds
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article qpg finn dns nmsu edu amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor writes in article tcmayc m xv jex netcom com tcmay netcom com timothy c may writes but is it any worse than the current unsecure system it becomes much worse of course if the government then uses this clinton clipper to argue for restrictions on unapproved encryption this is the main concern of most of us i think the camel s nose in the tent etc not to pick on mr may in particular of course but isn t this kind of the domino theory when one little country falls its neighbor will surely follow and before you know it we re all mining salt in siberia for not turning in our captain crunch secret decoder rings i wish i could agree with you ask yourself this why would any private sector entity wish to buy a crypto system that was known to be at least partially compromised key escrows in this instance why would any private sector entity wish to buy a crypto system that had not been properly evaluated i e algorythm not publically released the answer seems obvious to me they wouldn t there is other hardware out there not compromised des as an example triple des as a better one my suspicion is that the prices will drop dramatically on these non clipper systems if not we re in trouble given that the clinton administration is not entirely stupid although we d like to think so i cannot believe that they have failed to realize this they know their initiative will fail much as crippled des was never taken seriously the only way their moves can work is by coercion you know little about politics if you don t realize that this is just a first step in the next move it makes no sense otherwise the next move banning or severly crippling crypto not using the clipper system is easily justified why would anyone want other encryption unless they were trying to subvert the government we ve provided you with a very secure alternative so use it or go to jail be fined whatever how can you reconcile the administrations self proclaimed purpose of providing law enforcement with access to encrypted data without making the clipper system the only crypto available in the u s you simply can t and the administration knows it anyone who wanted to keep the govt out of their hair be it for drug dealing or whatever would just buy still available non clipper systems don t sell our crafty clinton types short they can t be that stupid either banning non clipper crypto is the next answer or the administrations collective i q is about that of a potato why do you think at t jumped on so fast they know it s going to be big and not because it s better right on the face of it noone will buy the stuff that doesn t have to at t must know this too think man why the hell would they jump the gun my interpretation andrew tim may whose sig block may get him busted in the new regime isn t this just a little melodramatic i really wonder to wit the letter i just sent to clinton the white house office of the press secretary c o presidential comment line fax april sir and or madam i must object most strongly to the administrations evolving position on encryption and cryptography i am shocked at the clinton regimes increasing lean towards a authoritarian approach with regard to privacy and freedom from government oversight in day to day life it is apparent to me that those who drafted the clipper chip proposal which is incidentally gaining notoriety as the big brother proposal are either incredibly ignorant or very sly indeed anyone knowledgeable in the nuances of cryptographic development and research must understand that a key step in the development of a new algorithm especially one destined for standardization is the full disclosure of the algorithm to the private and academic sectors the proper evaluation of an algorithm dep ends on careful scrutiny by these sectors and only such scrutiny can provide true public confidence in the security of the algorithm the assumption that a new algorithm will be accepted based on assurances from experts without full disclosure is plain ignorance in addition the assumption that an algorithm will be marketable over other technology such as des when it is characterized by key escrow is lunacy it seems an easy step in the logic chain that probable consumers will prefer to purchase equipment not crippled by government key escrow no matter how tamper proof the key escrows might be i cannot believe that even the least educated policy maker would have failed to realize these flaws i can only assume then that the drafters of the clipper chip proposal knew very well the difficulties of selling a crippled system to the private sector the only way this proposal makes any sense or has any chance of succeeding is in coercion even the language of the proposal makes it painfully clear that the next logical step is the outlawing of other encryption devices and hardware that do not uti lize the big brother chip unfortunately the public at large is not educated enough on the issue to realize what they are losing i expect the big brother proposal to encounter little resistance from the american people who you will have so efficiently duped once again with pretty words like harmony right to encryption and voluntary it mortifies me that the phrase that seems to be used more and more often to characterize the clinton administration is i can t believe it s happening here more startling is a question a colleague of mine posed and the realization that everyday it becomes more and more relevant when is the reichstag fire planned for most concerned signature shaen logan bernhardt i uni acs bu edu uni acs bu edu public keys by finger and or request public key archives at pgp public keys junkbox cc iastate edu df f b de b c c sovereignty is the sign of a brutal past cryptography is not a crime fight the big brother proposal
sci.crypt	re how to detect use of an illegal cipher in article apr clarinet com brad clarinet com brad templeton writes your honour the suspect suddenly started using another level of cryptography and we can t tap his phone calls any more he must have something to hide please sign the warrant to search his house what they would need to do though is make sure that nobody has access to decent crypto in the first place they probably can t tell clippered voice from clippered triple desed voice until they get their copy of your key any criminal who s going to use encryption will do it under cover of clipper the only way to avoid this will be to try to prohibit strong encryption i probably shouldn t say this but they could try to detect the use of an illegal cypher by transmitting in the clear some statistical properties of the plaintext an old fashioned wiretap could then detect the use of pre encryption which would drastically increase the measured entropy of the input a countermeasure to this would be to use steganographic techniques which put out voice you can tell if the nsa built this feature in blow on the mike and observe whether a band of thugs comes through your ceiling pgp key by finger or e mail eli ebrandt jarthur claremont edu
sci.crypt	re how does it really work was re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu writes the main thing i just don t get is whether this chip implements symmetric or asymmetric cryptographic techniques anybody know i don t know but i m as willing to speculate as anyone several people have suggested that the chips use public key cryptography another possibility is to use diffie hellman key exchange or some other algorithm which has a similar effect dh allows both ends to agree on a session key which they use with symmetric cryptography something like des for the encryption how could the back door keys work in this system i can see a few possibilities one is that the dh like algorithm has the property that the session key can be deduced by an eavesdropper who knows the back door keys for one or possibly both communicants perhaps the random numbers used in the dh are seeded by the back door key or some such another possibility as was suggested here earlier is that the chips simply broadcast the session key encrypted with the chip s own internal secret key in this system the back door keys are secret keys usable for decrypting this session key broadcast actually the chip s secret key doesn t need to be a public key in this usage but can be identical to the secret back door key this proposal seems most straightforward to me still another possibility is that the encryption algorithm used for the message itself has a dual key property that possession of either of two keys can be used to decrypt it one key would be the session key from the dh exchange and the other would be the back door key for the chip it s worth noting that one of the proposals dorothy denning raised during her amazingly prescient on line discussion last november and december was a variation on diffie hellman in which a third party would participate in deriving the session keys this doesn t quite fit into what we know of how clipper works but it hints that those who had early knowledge of clipper or whose thinking was somehow synchronized with clipper designers may have had diffie hellman on their minds hal finney
sci.crypt	re the battle is joined in article apr qualcomm com karn servo qualcomm com phil karn writes it looks like dorothy denning s wrong headed ideas have gotten to the administration even sooner than we feared i d lay long odds that it was the other way around clinton didn t just pull this plan out of any bodily orifices the nsa has to have been working on it for years while it s possible that denning and other prominent people just happened to start arguing for such a system it seems more likely that there was a suggestion involved if this guess is wrong i apologize pgp key by finger or e mail eli ebrandt jarthur claremont edu
sci.crypt	the source of that announcement the message from the nist about the clipper chip comes from the following address clipper csrc ncsl nist gov clipper chip announcement just who is that i asked myself or rather i asked the computer telnet csrc ncsl nist gov trying connected to csrc ncsl nist gov escape character is first org sendmail nist ready at sat apr edt expn clipper csspab mail gw ncsl nist gov denning cs georgetown edu hoffman seas gwu edu mkapor eff org rotenberg cpsr org rivest mit edu mhellman stanford edu alanrp aol com dparker sri com jim rsa com branstad tis com mgrsplus csmes ncsl nist gov quit first org closing connection connection closed well isn t that interesting dorothy denning mitch kapor marc rotenberg ron rivest jim bidzos and others the government rsa tis cpsr and the eff are all represented i don t suppose anybody within any of these organizations would care to comment or is this just the white house s idea of a cruel joke on these peoples inboxes marc marc horowitz n nzu marc mit edu
sci.crypt	remote file system security in light of my recent paranoia concerning government proposals i d love to see a unix based encryption scheme that kept some files encrypted on the host machine say all the files in your home directory used a key system that could not be compromised by eavesdropping over a modem line it seems that this would require modifications to a shell program and a way of telling whether a file was encrypted or not among other things i d love to know about potential security holes in such a system does such a system exist if it were made easy to use and readily available i think it would be a good thing tm i realize that this would probably just involve putting a nice front end on a readily available and very secure encryption scheme but it should be done thanks for the ear brad
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow brad clarinet com brad templeton and yes this has to be a public key system or it would be almost impossible to handle it might not be rsa but that does not mean that pkp doesn t get paid until pkp has the patent on the general concept of public key encryption as well as the particular implementation known as rsa hmm my first thought was that they re using diffie hellman exponential session key exchange or an equivalent however the diffie hellman patent like the hellman merkle one on public key systems claims all equivalents so the basic point stands interestingly a quote from jim bidzos showed up in the media real soon after the announcement and he sounded very pissed maybe he hadn t yet realized that pkp might have just struck gold all they have to do is get someone to admit the general scheme that the clipper uses jef jef poskanzer jef netcom com jef well sf ca us an object never serves the same function as its image or its name rene magritte
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article qpg finn dns nmsu edu amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor writes in article tcmayc m xv jex netcom com tcmay netcom com timothy c may writes tim may whose sig block may get him busted in the new regime isn t this just a little melodramatic not at all two weeks ago i registered a concern about some programming that was being conducted by a student organisation here at the university of texas at san antonio as a result i was interrogated by the capus police who also attempted to create a positive identification file photo fingerprints etc i refused to permit this and filed a complaint with the university administration the vice president for business affairs the boss of the campus police stated that he had no interest in the legal constitutional implications of those actions the greatest threat facing the citizens of the united states in the decade of the s is the united states government at all levels federal state local all opinions are mine and i reserve the right to deny them at any time wwh
sci.crypt	re fifth amendment and passwords in article apr sugra uucp ken sugra uucp kenneth ng writes in article apr linus mitre org ptrei bistromath mitre org peter trei writes judge i grant you immunity from whatever may be learned from the key itself you the keyphrase is i confess to deliberately evading copyright the file encoded with this keyphrase contains illegal scans of copyrighted peanuts strips judge and cp oh how will they get you now i m not saying that they won t or can t or even that they shouldn t but what legal mechanism will they use should we be crossposting this to misc legal hm could another court try you via a bypass of the double jeopardy amendment like they are doing in the lapd trial ie your judge is a state judge and then a federal judge retries you under the justification that its not the same trail no the lapd officers were tried first by the state of california on charges of police brutality and secondly by the federal government on depriving rk of his civil rights a different crime the scenario i outline is more similar to the oliver north trial ollie confessed to treason aiding an enemy of the us during senate hearings under immunity the team which was later to prosecute him on criminal charges had to sequester itself from all reports of on s immunized testimony on s lawyer brought up the probability that at least someone on the team had heard about the senate testimony and it was a strong factor against the prosecution which is one of the reasons this on is still walking around free today peter trei ptrei mitre org
sci.crypt	re the source of that announcement telnet csrc ncsl nist gov trying connected to csrc ncsl nist gov escape character is first org sendmail nist ready at sat apr edt expn clipper csspab mail gw ncsl nist gov denning cs georgetown edu hoffman seas gwu edu mkapor eff org rotenberg cpsr org rivest mit edu mhellman stanford edu alanrp aol com dparker sri com jim rsa com branstad tis com mgrsplus csmes ncsl nist gov quit first org closing connection connection closed note also telnet csmes ncsl nist gov trying connected to csmes ncsl nist gov escape character is csmes ncsl nist gov sendmail nist rbj dougm ready at sat apr edt expn mgrsplus mcnulty ecf ncsl nist gov irene gilbert igilbert dennis branstad branstad robert rosenthal rmr gene troy troy smid st ncsl nist gov dennis steinauer dds katzke st ncsl nist gov telnet mail gw ncsl nist gov trying connected to mail gw ncsl nist gov escape character is mail gw ncsl nist gov sendmail rbj jck ready at sat apr edt expn csspab burrows ecf mcnulty ecf bill colvin colvin gangemi dockmaster ncsc mil john kuyers kuyers slambert cgin cto citicorp com lipner mitre org gallagher dockmaster ncsc mil cindy rand postmaster dot gov walker tis com willis rand org eddie zeitler zeitler cris castro castro whitehurst vnet ibm com telnet st ncsl nist gov trying connected to st ncsl nist gov escape character is st ncsl nist gov sendmail nbs rbj ready at sat apr edt expn smid miles smid smid expn katzke stuart katzke katzke quit st ncsl nist gov closing connection connection closed by foreign host telnet ecf ncsl nist gov trying connected to ecf ncsl nist gov escape character is ecf ncsl nist gov tgv multinet smtp service ready expn burrows burrows james burrows expn mcnulty mcnulty lynn mcnulty quit ecf ncsl nist gov tgv multinet smtp service complete whois h rs internic net first org national institute of standards and technology first dom a nist gaithersburg md domain name first org administrative contact wack john p jpw wack enh nist gov fts technical contact zone contact hunt craig w cwh hunt enh nist gov fts record last updated on dec domain servers in listed order dove nist gov ames arc nasa gov the internic registration services host only contains internet information networks asn s domains and poc s please use the whois server at nic ddn mil for milnet information
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow in article brad clarinet com brad templeton writes the greatest danger of the escrow database if it were kept on disk would be the chance that a complete copy could somehow leak out you of course then it s hard to backup however i think the consequences of no backup the data is not there when a warrant comes are worse than the consequences of a secret backup if the data isn t there when the warrant comes you effectively have secure crypto if secret backups are kept then you effectively have no crypto thus this poster is essentialy arguing no crypto is better than secure crypto if the data isn t there when the warrant comes then the government will just have to use normal law enforcement techniques to catch crooks is this so bad btw bugging isn t yet a normal law enforcement technique with the privacy clipper it will become a normal technique jim information farming at for addr phone finger a a the ohio state university jebright magnus acs ohio state edu jim ebright e mail jre osu edu
sci.crypt	re the source of that announcement also note from branstad tis com and walker tis com whois h rs internic net tis dom trusted information systems inc tis dom washington road route glenwood md domain name tis com administrative contact walker stephen t stw walker tis com technical contact zone contact dalva david i did dave tis com record last updated on jul domain servers in listed order tis com la tis com and dockmaster is an infamous address seth finkelstein sethf athena mit edu the road to hell is paved with good intentions
sci.crypt	re how to detect use of an illegal cipher in article c nmb cof news claremont edu ebrandt jarthur claremont edu eli brandt writes i probably shouldn t say this but they could try to detect the use of an illegal cypher by transmitting in the clear some statistical properties of the plaintext an old fashioned wiretap could then detect the use of pre encryption which would drastically increase the measured entropy of the input a countermeasure to this would be to use steganographic techniques which put out voice this way to detect pre encryption may be defeated one can do transformation of the spectrum of encrypted signal just by adding some pre arranged in the beginning of communication function i think so say you can do fft of your encrypted signal just thinking for pgp public key finger mkagalen lynx dac northeastern edu
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article bu edu uni acs bu edu shaen bernhardt writes i wish i could agree with you ask yourself this why would any private sector entity wish to buy a crypto system that was known to be at least partially compromised key escrows in this instance why would any private sector entity wish to buy a crypto system that had not been properly evaluated i e algorythm not publically released the answer seems obvious to me they wouldn t there is other hardware out there not compromised des as an example triple des as a better one what follows is my opinion it is not asserted to be the truth so no flames please it comes out of a background of years as a senior corporate staff executive in two fortune companies i d be happy to use a crypto system supplied by the nsa for business if they told me it was more secure than des and in particular resistant to attempts by japanese french and other competitive companies and governments to break i d be happy to do so even with escrowed keys provided i was happy about the bona fides of the escrow agencies the federal reserve would certainly satisfy me as would something set up by one of the big accounting firms i d trust the nsa or the president if they stated there were no trap doors i d be even happier if a committee of independent experts examined the thing under seal of secrecy and reported back that it was secure i d trust something from the nsa long before i d trust something from some swiss or anybody japanese this may seem surprising to some here but i suggest most corporations would feel the same way most many some pick one corporations have an attitude that the nsa is part of our government and we support our government as one very famous ceo put it to me one day just some perspective from another point of view david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re wh announcement q who was consulted the congress industry a we have on going discussions with congress and industry on encryption issues and expect those discussions to intensify as we carry out our review of encryption policy we have briefed members of congress and industry leaders on the decisions related to this initiative congress so we re playing politics before we talk to cpsr academia the public internet users i ve heard of top down design but top down democracy just whose state district are the chip manufacturers in q if the administration were unable to find a technological solution like the one proposed would the administration be willing to use legal remedies to restrict access to more powerful encryption devices a this is a fundamental policy question which will be considered during the broad policy review bs about the wonderfulness of the key escrow system the administration is not saying since encryption threatens the public safety and effective law enforcement we will prohibit it outright as some countries have effectively done they ll just provide an easily compromised version to jq public nor is the u s saying that every american as a matter of right is entitled to an unbreakable commercial encryption product maybe we need a cra cryptographic rights amendment there is a false tension created in the assessment that this issue is an either or proposition rather both concerns can be and in fact are harmoniously balanced through a reasoned balanced approach such as is proposed with the clipper chip and similar encryption techniques nice lullaby but why am i not soothed also in article leland stanford edu arc leland stanford edu andrew richard conway writes p s i can t work out why the us government doesn t want to sell them overseas after all they are rather easy for us interests to decode so make a perfect tool for industrial military espionage lulling anyone stupid enough to buy it into a false sense of security you will notice that there is no mention anywhere about safety for non americans why repeat themselves it appears to some and the story looks pretty convincing to me too that the justice department stole a case tracking system modified it and distributed it to friendly police and suchlike agencies around the world eg the canadian mounties of course i have no doubt they swore scout s honor that there were no backdoors with that kind of intelligence who d want to be swamped with terabytes of commercial traffic dwight tuinstra best tuinstra sandman ece clarkson edu tolerable tuinstrd craft camp clarkson edu homo sapiens planetary cancer news at six
sci.crypt	re the battle is joined in article apr qualcomm com karn servo qualcomm com phil karn writes it looks like dorothy denning s wrong headed ideas have gotten to the administration even sooner than we feared if the administration is this far along is it possible that the government been working on it for a while and has been using the dennings to prime the pump so to speak or as the judas goat whether paid off just gullible or what doesn t really matter it might also be possible that the nsa whoever has had the idea for this for quite a while has been promoting it denning et al and siezed the new opportunity a new administration who wants to spend more money on espionage than bush did whatever i m not so sure that the cause effect order is totally obvious you will lose your drug free and proud ribbon two days later you will catch a neighborhood kid smoking it
sci.crypt	re the battle is joined in article c nn i d q news claremont edu ebrandt jarthur claremont edu eli brandt writes in article apr qualcomm com karn servo qualcomm com phil karn writes it looks like dorothy denning s wrong headed ideas have gotten to the administration even sooner than we feared i d lay long odds that it was the other way around clinton didn t just pull this plan out of any bodily orifices the nsa has to have been working on it for years i first heard rumors of a similar government proposal in risks digest in or peter trei ptrei mitre org
sci.crypt	clipper chip i have lurked here a bit lately and though some of the math is unknown to me found it interesting i thought i would post an article i found in the saturday april toronto star clipper chip to protect privacy washington reuter president bill clinton announced yesterday a plan to plant a new clipper chip in every government telephone and computer line to prevent eavesdropping eventually the chips developed by the government s national institute for standards and technology would be used by commercial and private electronics communication users the white house said that to assure privacy each device containing the encryption devices would be assigned two unique keys numbers that will be needed by government agencies to decode messages the attorney general has been assigned the task of arranging that the keys are deposited in two key escrow data bases access to them would be limited to government officials with legal authorization to conduct a wiretap the white house said in a statement dan mckinnon canada remote systems toronto ontario
sci.crypt	re the source of that announcement marc horowitz n nzu marc mit edu wrote the message from the nist about the clipper chip comes from the following address clipper csrc ncsl nist gov clipper chip announcement just who is that i asked myself or rather i asked the computer telnet csrc ncsl nist gov list of name elided for brevity well isn t that interesting dorothy denning mitch kapor marc rotenberg ron rivest jim bidzos and others the government rsa tis cpsr and the eff are all represented i don t suppose anybody within any of these organizations would care to comment or is this just the white house s idea of a cruel joke on these peoples inboxes i know that at least one person on that list says the first he heard of clipper was in the friday morning newspaper and another has already fired off a letter of protest to nist my point i suspect this list interesting as it is for various reasons does not represent the cabal that put this proposal together some of them yes others no this may be nothing more than a mailing list of people who get crypto related announcements from nsa er i mean nist tim may timothy c may crypto anarchy encryption digital money tcmay netcom com anonymous networks digital pseudonyms zero knowledge reputations information markets w a s t e aptos ca black markets collapse of governments higher power public key pgp and mailsafe available
sci.crypt	is there any security in the clipper it seems to me that all discussions about clipper security are almost irrelevant if i cannot choose the key but have to use a key chosen for me by the foundry the security of the whole universe of users is as good or as bad as the security of vlsi technologies inc it is a trivial effort to run any ciphertext agains all the keys ever manufactured after all we are talking about to million keys that will ever be manufactured the key depositories can be as secure and incorruptible as they wish to be nobody cares anyway now if someone would convince me that the shipping docks of vti att and others are impenetrable remember the chips have to ship with the key you or the dealer are going to submit it to the authorities eventually i d be a bit happier but do we really believe that the various governments including ours won t have the full lists of all the keys ever manufactured did i miss something here my own opinions quite obviously from ze ev wurman email zeev key amdahl com or zeev ccc amdahl com organization amdahl corp landing parkway m s freemont ca phone office fax attn zeev wurman
sci.crypt	re the old key registration idea begin pgp signed message in article qn ic hp access digex net pcw access digex com peter wayner writes the system is vulnerable to simple phone swapping attacks like this criminals will quickly figure this out and go to town depends its possible that the phone sends its serial number in the clear at some specified interval so all a listener needs to do is get that sn and then get the key for it so swapping phones isn t a problem for the gov t that is they still know that this line belongs to you so they just watch the line and see the sn and then they get the key for that sn in either case i think we need to look at this a bit deeper jbl mw wxld well i think this is understood the major problem is that a lot of people just don t trust this key escrow stuff and the fact that the algorithms are classified so yes a lot of this needs to be looked at closer derek pgp key available upon request on the key server pgp public keys toxicwaste mit edu derek atkins mit electrical engineering and computer science secretary mit student information processing board sipb mit media laboratory speech research group warlord mit edu pp asel n nwh
sci.crypt	re pem and mime in article qg m e nigel msen com emv garnet msen com edward vielmetti writes w c newell jr wcn u washington edu wrote before we can have a global multimedia e mail solution there must be some definition of a minimum service level and mime does not provide for this yet before the internet will invest in software people need to see content i would suggest that attractive mime formatted news messages a day would be sufficient to get a few people thinking about adding mime support to news readers esp if the content is really worth it imho we have a long way to go before the unix specific muas newsreaders etc reach the service levels of the other commercial platforms there ought to be such a definition consisting of known object data types and rules for their handling included in the transport specification document yes but there is also a long way to go before most mac pc and windows muas and newsreaders are ready to handle the sheer volume of news and mail that many unix specific tools are able to cope with when the choice is more feechurs or make the damn thing fast enough to keep up with the flood you have to bet that fast enough wins ed as usual makes a very good point one time a friend of mine at sun sent me an e mail he composed it using the sun openwindows mailtool which handles non mime attachments and the like since i don t use mailtool i had to manually save it cut paste and then uudecode the actual attachment what i got after a not inconsiderable amount of time spent doing this was an audio file the original message was over kb of mail headers and uuencoded data the resulting audio message was a single sentence that i transcribed as a character message if he had sent me the sentence in plain text the e mail would have been around bytes and it would have taken me about seconds to process it at most instead it was k and it took at least a minute a complete waste of my time and bandwidth as far as i m concerned sending plain text is still the most efficient method of transmission given the same transport mechanism i shudder to think what would happen if everyone started posting their usenet articles as audio files instead of plain text meltdown of the net predicted film at eleven back to mono this sub thread no longer has anything to do with pem or administrative policy so i ve redirected followups back to comp mail mime greg greg earle phone fax internet earle isolar tujunga ca us uucp isolar earle elroy jpl nasa gov a k a elroy isolar earle
sci.crypt	need source of feal encrytion algorithm hi i am interested in the source of feal encryption algorithm does someone of you know where i can get the source from or where i can find documentation about feal thanks in advance ciao hermann please email me
sci.crypt	re don t fight clipper chip subvert or replace it the clipper chip is just the culmination of dorthy denning et all but lets ignore that for the moment the fundamental question is can the government stop me from using encryption ignoring for the moment the question of patented processes such as public keys can the government stop me from using an encryption process if the answer is yes then what freedom we have in this country is truly gone and its time to get out the guns or the lawyers depending upon which causes more damage and to whom however assuming that i can still encrypt things as i please who cares about the clipper chip as far as i m concerned a phone line is insecure period i don t care if they encrypt it ways from sunday if i didn t do the encrypting i don t trust it this is the attitude that everyone else should have instead of worrying about a clipper chip simply connect your handset to your computer and feed the voice single through process encrypt and transmit over the phone the guy on the other hand then does the same in reverse can t work you say no standard you say obviously you have never uses pgp anyone who expects the government to protect their freedoms is kidding themselves only you can protect your own freedoms one final thought addressed to eff do you support the implementation of any form of encryption where the encryption key must be revealed if you do why if not why what specific actions are you planning to take to either support or stop this proposal if you do not support this proposal what alternatives do you offer the jester proof windows is a virus it is very widespread it eats up your disk space it slows down your computer it takes control over your computer it performs disk access at random times it displays silly messages on your screen it randomly crashes the computer vesselin
sci.crypt	wh proposal from police point of view it might pay to start looking at what this proposal might mean to a police agency it just might be a bad idea for them too ok suppose the ny state police want to tap a suspect s phone they need a warrant just like the old days but unlike the old days they now need to a get two federal agencies to give them the two parts of the key now what happens if there s a tiff between the two escrow houses posession release of keys becomes a political bargaining chit state and lower level police agencies have to watch the big boys play politics while potentially good leads disappear lives and property are lost statutes of limitations run out etc not to mention a moderately clever person who suspects the police are after her him will be buying new phones faster than tap requests can be processed or using stolen ones will the turing police come and arrest you for transmitting without a dialing license there s also bureacracy and security problems within each escrow house how will requests for key disclosure be authenticated put in enough safeguards of the kind bureaucrats and activists feel comfortable with and it might take a long time to get that key even when a request is approved how is the key going to be disclosed will it be encrypted by a clipper type chip for transmission in a bureaucracy the size of the federal government with a databank of the necessary size and data traffic of the projected volume there s going to be a lot of weak links how many of these kinds of problems will be open for public or expert scrutiny furthermore the feds might be leery of handing completed keys around even to state police agencies a trust and security issue this would be an especially acute issue if some other state s police had mishandled a key resulting in lawsuits financial settlements and political embarassment so the feds implement it this way b some federal agency gets the keys performs the tap and turns the results over to the ny state police but let s say cuomo s been causing some problems over a clinton aid to urban areas proposal or there just happens to be a turf war going on between the state cops and the justice department on a case now not only do we have the keys as a political chit we have an extra player in the game and we have the tap s tapes as another bargaining chit again the state police lose i understand that legal wiretaps are quite expensive to maintain in scenario b who pays the bill dwight tuinstra best tuinstra sandman ece clarkson edu tolerable tuinstrd craft camp clarkson edu homo sapiens planetary cancer news at six
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption andrew richard conway arc leland stanford edu wrote p s i can t work out why the us government doesn t want to sell them overseas after all they are rather easy for us interests to decode so make a perfect tool for industrial military espionage lulling anyone stupid enough to buy it into a false sense of security you will notice that there is no mention anywhere about safety for non americans don t forget you are in the country that wouldn t let the russians buy apple ii s because of security concerns ben bena bruce cs monash edu au
sci.crypt	re don t fight clipper chip subvert or replace it in article ygoland wright ygoland wright seas ucla edu the jester writes ignoring for the moment the question of patented processes such as public keys can the government stop me from using an encryption process following precedent in other areas the government is likely to put a tax on encryption technology once the tax is imposed it becomes a federal matter and suspicision of an unlicensed cryptographic tool will bring the batf or fbi tossing grenades into your house the batf appears to be the logical agency to enforce such regulations federal control over alocohol tobacco and firearms is similary based on taxes look at the fcc they won t allow sale of any receiever that can receive bands that are supposed to be private this has nothing to do with any desire to prevent harmful interference if the government can make a radio receiver illegal what makes you think they won t claim the right to control encryption john carr jfc athena mit edu
sci.crypt	re the battle is joined in article c nn i d q news claremont edu ebrandt jarthur claremont edu eli brandt writes in article apr qualcomm com karn servo qualcomm com phil karn writes it looks like dorothy denning s wrong headed ideas have gotten to the administration even sooner than we feared i d lay long odds that it was the other way around clinton didn t just pull this plan out of any bodily orifices the nsa has to have been working on it for years while it s possible that denning and other prominent people just happened to start arguing for such a system it seems more likely that there was a suggestion involved if this guess is wrong i apologize i m sure dorothy denning is an honest person and wouldn t lie to us simply think up a question to ask her about her involvement but be very careful to phrase it in such a way that there can be no jesuitical evasion or a true but wholly misleading answer in this country mi are experts at answering these questions for instance there was a british journalist jonathon moyle killed in south america a couple of years ago parliament asked was he an mi employee no turns out afterwards he wasn t paid therefore wasn t an employee they could equally have said he wasn t an agent he went abroad on his private business with no brief from mi but was interviewed and debriefed at length only on his return g
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption the dead giveaway is the repeated protestations that the new plan is aimed at criminals drug dealers terrorists etc you d think the tactic would be too obvious to trot out yet again after a decade of sarah and the rest of the brady bunch using it to destroy the second amendment but evidently the control nuts feel it will serve them one more time as far as the export needs of american companies are concerned i could almost believe that the plan to saddle the us industry with a hidden sabotaged algorithm was invented by a cabal of japanese lobbyists
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article apr clarinet com brad clarinet com brad templeton writes in article tcmayc m xv jex netcom com tcmay netcom com timothy c may writes getting the court order to reveal the key also makes decipherable all past conversations which may be on tape or disk or whatver as i understand the proposal i could be wrong but i ve seen no mention of session keys being the escrowed entities true in theory in practice the technology of cellular phones will probably be spread spectrum and quite difficult to record the crypttext without the key if the frequency path depends on they key as i understand it to it could be made effectively impossible to record i am not an expert in the cryptography science but some basic things seem evident to me things which this clinton clipper do not address the all pertain to opportunites for abuse and conclusions based on what i have seen the membership of this group except for two notable persons agree to if anything bad is possible by the government in theory it almost always ends up happening in fact so the key is to make abuse impossible question authority and remember power does corrupt i think one has to regard this whole idea in the sense that it will be expanded to include other data forms such as data transfer and stored data and as such should be treated as if it were expanded or such expansion will be almost impossible to stop using clipper as a precident there was a hint of that in the proposal remember that said please bear with me i am not very articulate so i take more words to say what others could say much more briefly thank you once it hits land you can record it if you have telco access the telco isn t supposed to give that without a warrant that s the rule today as i suggested this is now the hint is in the proposal that this or similar proposals are being considered for other forms of encryptions such as data transfer data files and such largely dependent on how this thing is accepted or flies i think one would be wise to treat this in the manner one would when not if it gets expanded to other areas than cellular phones i think this is guaranteed to happen if this proposal gets by salami politics it has been and is used in several other areas it is certain to be used here government is not going to easily give up on the idea that they should be able to eavesedrop whenever they want to court order required has proven to be a rather flimsy guarantee if the case warrants they can always sieze the material and force one to give the key or sit in jail forever on periodically renewed contempt charges so it is not denying the justice system the information nor the ability to lock someone up if guilty or refuses to divulge the means to access the info this is not protected under the fifth one can be forced to perform acts that would result in divulging incriminating evidence so blocking restrictions on private encryption is not preventing legitimate law enforcement it does make illegitimate law enforcement a bunch more difficult especially fishing expeditions without the target s knowlege don t give up the right to be safe from that that should be non negotiable and clinton and co know it which is probably why they quietly developed this thing figuring if they get it this far they can ram it on through how come those consulted could be roughly described as us insiders they cannot quietely impliment it though when they ban other schemes to ensure its exclusive use hence the nice pr document to try and reassure everyone don t buy into it has government really earned that kind of trust past or future to be secure and free one must keep government honest and the only way to do that is to make abuse impossible not unlikely or difficult but even so the evidence would not be admissible i think unless the judge so ordered i think that even interception of the crypttext without a warrant would be illegal cops can t record today s plain cellular calls and then ask a judge hey can we have permission to listen to those tapes can they so what one could use information gained by re use of the keys saved after the last case was finished or other means master key backdoor easily broken algorithm to find other evidence which given to a judge would authorize a tap which wouldn t have been possible otherwise this has been the more common manner of abuse of wiretaps in the past for local cops this might be workable to keep them honest but the feds have a workaround somehow bet on it does anyone really believe for example that the government will use a scheme nsa cannot listen in on scanning for keywords either easily defeated in realtime or via a master key i sure don t this whole thing sounds like something to eliminate the need to use old fashioned police work to build a case in the past eavesdropping was rather easy with or without a court order i think the law enforcement community has become a bit spoiled and will resist changes that require them to revert to using old fashioned detective work i just find it somewhat surprising coming from a bunch that cares so much about civil and individual rights that puts people first the question is put people first to where with the innards not being revealed how is one to be sure there doesn t exist a master key for use by nsa etc so they can do their keyword scan etc on conversations they routinely monitor without a specific court order remember the cellular phone limitiation is only temporary bet on it and so far i have not heard about police telling people that they have been tapped and nothing incriminating was found what is to keep them from simply keeping the keys on file for next time after awhile they would have quite a collection kept especially for folks they deem disruptive and if they get only one key that would reduce the search space a lot unless it is an rsa scheme remember nixon years need for court orders really slowed them down didn t it and unless the escrow accounts are not government controlled fat chance i see one ending up being under say treasury the other under justice it could be worth some serious bucks to some folks to get keys to a competitor s clinton clipper or descendent when this idea is expanded to be used for all non government encryption enough bucks would get one the keys or the innards for this algorithm perhaps not an important concern but given past government behavior and the other problems worse of course if the government then uses this clinton clipper to argue for restrictions on unapproved encryption this is the main concern of most of us i think the camel s nose in the tent etc yes that is a major concern but i think that they think they can win just by having of the usa use this system they don t even have to care about the cautious that s left they don t catch the really smart crooks anyway john gotti who would have to be retarded not to realize he was likely to be wiretapped glibly chatted away on his tapped phone about murder plans that s why he s in jail now hard to believe but true what will one do when it is expanded to data storage encryption you can bet that if clipper is accepted that will be next on the agenda it is even hinted at in the proposal read it carefully expect the argumet well if you got nothing to hide fine then using that argument one should not object to video cameras being installed in every room of one s home granted an exteme expansion of the idea but the principle holds private stuff should remain private even from a govt fishing expedition and laws rules may change in the future as to safeguards when it comes to the fed government safeguards are pretty meaningless if they want to do get something don t work so hard to give up some rather treasured rights or establish bad precidents please the price could be hell to pay later this scheme can succeed without laws forbidding more which people would fight a lot harder they like this enough that they are dropping the so called digital telephony proposal according to rumours however the meaning of that is complex since they still want to get at the crypttext on telco systems and that requires a bit of work people would fight laws forbidding more now but in say two years because we have this crisis situation which must be addressed by some drastic action just this added reasonable restriction will only bother those who have someting to hide etc please don t buy into it if the clinton clipper is so very good why not make its algrithm public so many people can exchange ideas and examine it rather than a few isolated respected experts respected by whom for what perhaps a certain professor who likes key banks would be one of the selected experts this does seem to expand on some ideas the person was advocating if i recall how would anybody know that what the experts examine is the same as what will end up being used in the clipper chip if it is kept secret perhaps the clipper will use a crippled version with a master key provision or features not present in the version subjected for study and evaluation by the experts and who chooses the expertes the government no conflict of interest there and isn t it a requirement for any decent encryption scheme that it not have its effectiveness reduced by having the algrorithm widely known i was lead to believe that one should assume the other side has everything you have except for the key s i recall ideas presented to this group are rejected if a requirement exists the algorithm be secret another question since it is a safe bet this clipper thing would not be used for government security they are regarding it as not real secure but good enough for common folk i think i would like to see a full description not a pr non statement of just what good enough means i think when saying how strong it is good enough really means not very the excuse that other countries have these restrictions is not acceptable other countries do not have our bill of rights and constitution which the people not the governments of those other countries often regard with envy what we have as rights they have as revokable privileges and if we expect to retain those rights and protections we must not allow them to be gutted because we just gotta have this thing to fight crime we have allready have our bill of rights pretty much torn to shreds we should not permit more weakining for yet another noble cause instead we should be trying to repair the damage our crime problem may have a number of causes but too many rights and safeguards is not a signifigant one a broken court system and poor police work are a much more signifigant cause as having too many rights disregarding addressing the root causes for crime etc btw those who suggest that this is just an attack on clinton believe this i would be going ballistic reagardless who seriously proposed this thing it is just another step in a gradual erosion of our rights under the constitution or bill of rights the last couple of decades have been a non stop series of end runs around the protections of the constitution it has to stop now is as good a time as any if it isn t too late allready brad templeton clarinet communications corp sunnyvale ca pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor writes yes those evil guys in the fbi can probably with some effort abuse the system i got news for you if the evil guys in the fbi decide they want to persecute you they re gonna and if richard nixon had had this kind of toy he wouldn t have had to send people into the watergate but that s not really the issue the real issue is whether this will be used to justify a ban against individuals use of private i e anything else encryption methods unrelated question isn t the term clipper as neat as it is already taken by intergraph al
sci.crypt	re source of random bits on a unix workstation bennett todd salomon brothers inc ny bet sbi com wrote however unless i missed something the only source they suggested aside from a hardware rng that seems available and unguessable by an intruder when a unix is fresh booted is i o buffers related to network traffic i believe my solution basically uses that strategy without requiring me to reach into the kernel a few more sources are statistics on your filesystems easily and quickly obtained and the output from the rusage system call you can also exec a finger to one or more favorite heavily used systems though this can take several seconds cf the source code to ripem on ripem msu edu mark r
sci.crypt	re an open letter to mr clinton in article strnlghtc m cv hx netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes here s a simple way to convert the clipper proposal to an unexceptionable one make it voluntary that is you get high quality secure nsa classified technology if you agree to escrow your key otherwise you are on your own as long as you are on your own means that you can use your own encryption i m sold bruce
sci.crypt	need help i am currently writing a paper on computer protocols security i would appreciate your help i currently have no insight into these topics except that they relate to security in multilevel security network please semd me any references books faqs or contact persons names and internet addresses the topics i am interested in the firewall gateway model as implemented in internet gateways kerberos authentication service please send me a private e mail at eldar sfu ca and or post it on the board thanks a lot danny
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article qpg finn dns nmsu edu amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor writes in article tcmayc m xv jex netcom com tcmay netcom com timothy c may writes but is it any worse than the current unsecure system it becomes much worse of course if the government then uses this clinton clipper to argue for restrictions on unapproved encryption this is the main concern of most of us i think the camel s nose in the tent etc not to pick on mr may in particular of course but isn t this kind of the domino theory when one little country falls its neighbor will surely follow and before you know it we re all mining salt in siberia for not turning in our captain crunch secret decoder rings surely the hypothesis relying on the least wild assumptions is to take this at face value our lads at the fort were asked to cook up something that s pretty secure with a key that can be escrowed neatly and they did the government plans to sell this thing for the reasons they state yes those evil guys in the fbi can probably with some effort abuse the system i got news for you if the evil guys in the fbi decide they want to persecute you they re gonna and you re gonna hate it fact is the fbi doesn t want to listen to your phone calls and if they do and if you re using triple des they ll just get a parabolic microphone and point it at your head with e mail if they can t break your pgp encryption they ll just call up one of their tempest trucks and read the electromagnetic emmisions from your computer or terminal note that measures to protect yourself from tempest surveillance are still classified as far as i know this is pretty clearly an effort by the government to do exactly what they re saying they re doing as is typical with governments it s mismanaged and full of holes and compromises as is typical with our government it s not too bad could be worse my interpretation andrew tim may whose sig block may get him busted in the new regime isn t this just a little melodramatic if the new regime comes to fruition make sure you protect your first amendment rights by asserting your second amendment rights doug holland
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in apr clarinet com brad clarinet com brad templeton writes it occurs to me that if they get a wiretap order on you and the escrow houses release your code to the cops your code is now no longer secure a very good point it s in the hands of cops and while i am sure most of the time they are good their security will not be as good as the escrow houses why should we expect the cops to be honest they re underpaid for the risks they face every day the media dumps on the all the time and blames them for all sorts of discrimination brutality how can we expect them to be more than human besides there are lots of cases of police abuses ranging from protection scams to outright robbery when i worked in d c there was a breakin at a local radio shack and the alarm company heard the cops responding to the call over the audio pickup in the store what this effectively means is that if they perform a wiretap on you at the end of the wiretap they should be obligated to inform you that a tap was performed and replace for free the clipper chip in your cellular phone so that it is once again a code known only to the escrow houses then you would know that big brother had been listening does he really want to let you know do the police normally reveal every tap they do even if no charges are laid in many ways it would be a positive step if they had to judges set time limits on warrants i assume at the end of the time limit they should have to renew or replace your chip that s if we go with this scheme which i am not sure i agree with i m completely against anything that makes it easier for the government to encroach on the rights of individuals the founders of this country spent a lot of effort limiting the power of the government and specifying exactly what the governments rights were and this didn t include a gov t spy in every bedroom imho there are entirely too many things going on today designed to preserve the government organism at the expense of individuals look around and reread and many early heinlein books aren t there many parallels between the thought police can you spell waco texas and heinlein s crazy years bill internet bill celestial com bill campbell celestial software uucp thebes camco bill east mercer way uunet camco bill mercer island wa speed costs money how fast do you want to go
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow in article strnlghtc lgfi jqa netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes though some may argue about the nose of the camel it s worth noting that the government proposal is limited to scrambled telephony if it is only used for that purpose and does not extend to electronic mail or file encryption then it is an improvement over the current mass produced standard civilian technology which with a few exceptions is limited to easy to break inverters note that the big issue for the feds is the continued ability to wiretap before we go off the deep end with long discusions about secure crypto for e mail and files let s focus on this one question that was not asked in the release is whether this proposal is limited to telephony or if the government intends to expand it though i share many of the concerns expressed by some i find the proposal less threatening than many others since right now most americans have no secure telephony and any jerk with a pair of clip leads and a goat can eavesdrop this would also plug up the security hole in cellular and cordless phones reading between the lines i infer that the system is highly secure without access to the keys this would meet the needs of u s businesses confronted by rich and powerful adversaries including french and japanese security services and rich japanese companies it allows the nsa to make available some of its better stuff while protecting law enforcement needs most legitimate u s corporations trust the nsa and would be delighted to have a high security system certified by them even at the price of depositing keys in escrow i see no difficulty in creating a reliable escrow corporations entrust their secrets to attorneys every day of the week and that system has worked pretty well from my point of view this is a fair starting point there are concerns that need to be addressed including the reliability of the escrows but in return we get access to high security crypto many have suggested that des and other systems may be breakable by the nsa and hence others similarly skilled and endowed there is at least a good possibility which should be checked that the proposed system is not so breakable it doesn t have to be nor does it have to have trapdoors if the government can get the keys pursuant to a legitimate court order thus they can protect legitimate communications against economic adversaries while still being able to eavesdrop on crooks pursuant to a court order let me ask you this would you trust richard nixon with your crypto keys i wouldn t doug holland
sci.crypt	clipper chip technical details i received the following two notes from martin hellman with details on how clipper will work they are posted with his permission the implications of some details are fascinating date sat apr pdt from martin hellman hellman isl stanford edu to a long list of recipients subject clipper chip most of you have seen the announcement in friday s ny times etc about nist national institute of standards technology announcing the clipper chip crypto device several messges on the net have asked for more technical details and some have been laboring under understandable misunderstandings given the lack of details in the news articles so here to help out is your friendly nsa link me i was somewhat surprised friday to get a call from the agency which supplied many of the missing details i was told the info was public so here it is the cc of this to dennis branstad at nist is mostly as a double check on my facts since i assume he is aware of all this please let me know if i have anything wrong the clipper chip will have a secret crypto algorithm embedded in silicon each chip will have two secret bit keys one will be the same for all chips ie a system wide key and the other will be unit specific i don t know what nist and nsa will call them but i will call them the system key sk and unit key uk in this message the ic will be designed to be extremely difficult to reverse so that the system key can be kept secret aside it is clear that they also want to keep the algorithm secret and in my opinion it may be as much for that as this stated purpose the unit key will be generated as the xor of two bit random numbers k and k uk k k which will be kept by the two escrow authorities who these escrow authorities will be is still to be decided by the attorney general but it was stressed to me that they will not be nsa or law enforcement agencies that they must be parties acceptable to the users of the system as unbiased when a law enforcement agency gets a court order they will present it to these two escrow authorities and receive k and k thereby allowing access to the unit key uk in addition to the system key each user will get to choose his or her own key and change it as often as desired call this key plain old k when a message is to be sent it will first be encrypted under k then k will be encrypted under the unit key uk and the serial number of the unit added to produce a three part message which will then be encrypted under the system key sk producing e e m k e k uk serial number sk when a court order obtains k and k and thence k the law enforcement agency will use sk to decrypt all information flowing on the suspected link aside it is my guess that they may do this constantly on all links with or without a court order since it is almost impossible to tell which links over which a message will flow this gives the agency access to e m k e k uk serial number in the above message they then check the serial number of the unit and see if it is on the watch list for which they have a court order if so they will decrypt e k uk to obtain k and then decrypt e m k to obtain m i am still in the process of assessing this scheme so please do not take the above as any kind of endorsement of the proposed scheme all i am trying to do is help all of us assess the scheme more knowledgably but i will say that the need for just one court order worries me i would feel more comfortable though not necessarily comfortable if two separate court orders were needed one per escrow authority while no explanation is needed the following story adds some color in researching some ideas that silvio micali and i have been kicking around i spoke with gerald gunther the constitutional law expert here at stanford and he related the following story when edward levi became pres ford s attorney general right after watergate he was visited by an fbi agent asking for the wiretap authorizations when levy asked for the details so he could review the cases as required by law the agent told him that his predecessors just turned over blank signed forms every time levi did not comply and changed the system but the lesson is clear no single person or authority should have the power to authorize wiretaps or worse yet divulging of personal keys sometimes he or she will be an edward levi and sometimes a john mitchell martin hellman date sun apr pdt from martin hellman hellman isl stanford edu to smb research att com subject re clipper chip it is fine to post my previous message to sci crypt if you also post this message with it in which i ask recipients to be sparse in their requesting further info from me or asking for comments on specific questions by this posting i apologize for any messages i am unable to respond to i already spend too much time answering too much e mail and am particularly overloaded this week with other responsibilities i note a probably correction sent to me by dorothy denning she met with the person from nsa that i talked with by phone so her understanding is likely to better than mine on this point where i said the transmitted info is e e m k e k uk serial number sk she says the message is not double encrypted the system key or family key as she was told it is called only encrypts the serial number or the serial number and the encrypted unit key this is not a major difference but i thought it should be mentioned and thank her for bringing it to my attention it makes more sense since it cuts down on encryption computation overhead
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow in article qnupd jpm news intercon com amanda intercon com amanda walker writes from amanda intercon com amanda walker jhesse netcom com john hesse writes oh great wonderful news nobody can listen in except the feds hey it s better than the status quo i am far less worried about the feds tapping my phone than high school scanner surfers who get their kicks out of eavesdropping on cellular and cordless phone calls i m a political dissident i m scared shitless of the feds listening in on my calls my opinions are the sort that would get me disappeared in a slightly less free society and who knows what sort of society we will be in in five or ten years i have friends who have had their phones tapped none of this is theoretical to me as for its better than the status quo well first of all you can get a cryptophone from companies like cylink today and they work well in addition a number of groups are now working on building software to turn any pc into a privacy enhanced phone right now and they are all working in overdrive mode and yes i d rather just see all crypto restrictions lifted but this is at least an incrememental improvement for certain applications there are no crypto restrictions yet you can use anything you want right now the point is to maintain that right perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article qovj m ni umd edu louie sayshell umd edu louis a mamakos writes in article tcmayc m xv jex netcom com tcmay netcom com timothy c may writes but is it any worse than the current unsecure system it becomes much worse of course if the government then uses this clinton clipper to argue for restrictions on unapproved encryption this is the main concern of most of us i think the camel s nose in the tent etc excuse me this has already happened there s a couple of humps in the tent already ask the folks at qualcomm what became of the non trivial encryption scheme they proposed for use in their cdma digitial cellular phone standard there already are restrictions in place you have it slightly wrong they dumped the encryption system because they could not export it not because they could not produce it for u s use there are no legal restraints on citizen use of strong cryptography yet perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
sci.crypt	are we being hysterical no in article qpg finn dns nmsu edu amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor writes in article tcmayc m xv jex netcom com tcmay netcom com timothy c may writes but is it any worse than the current unsecure system it becomes much worse of course if the government then uses this clinton clipper to argue for restrictions on unapproved encryption this is the main concern of most of us i think the camel s nose in the tent etc not to pick on mr may in particular of course but isn t this kind of the domino theory as john gilmore has pointed out repeatedly if you produce the infrastructure that would permit a police state to function all that is required to suddenly find yourself living in one is a change of attitude on the part of the government our constitution was built by men who had to risk their lives to ensure freedom in our country they designed the system to make it difficult for tyranny to arise for instance one of the reasons the fourth amendment was put there was to make it harder for the government to try to make smuggling a crime think i jest john hancock made all his money smuggling rum which is after all a drug think about it the government has everyones keys in escrow and the fbi gets their pet wiretap without leaving the office scheme there is a coup which happens every day all around the world within hours everyone in the country who might oppose the tyrants is being monitored more closely than ever before possible without the tools being in place a tyranny cannot stand with tools like this in place a tyrannical dictatorship could actually be successfully imposed why give the government tools with which to enslave you maybe you can trust bill clinton but are you willing to tell me that you can trust every government that will ever arise in the u s hereafter i am not willing to make that leap of faith tim may whose sig block may get him busted in the new regime isn t this just a little melodramatic i m a political dissident as such i am acutely aware of what happens to political dissidents in most of the world in most of the world i could be killed for my beliefs call amnesty international some time to find out what happens to dissidents in most of the world all that seperates the u s from most of those places is a thin piece of parchment in the national archives thats being constantly more and more eroded by such farces as the war on drugs coups have happened in countries that have had stable democracies for over a hundred years governments throughout history have fallen no government has lasted for more than a few hundred years often they are replaced by dictatorships do you really believe so intensely that it could never ever ever happen here that you are willing to bet your own life and the lives of your children and other loved ones on it if we construct the tools with which tyranny could be enforced we make it orders of magnitude more likely that it could happen because if it happened with the tools already in place it could actually stick naive fools such as our leadership believe they can protect us where hundreds that have gone before have failed thriving democracies led by men far more skillfull than bill clinton have fallen to dictatorship rome had a thriving republic run by exquisitely skilled men before they became a tyranny i for one am unwilling to trust that it could never happen here only hubris would allow us to believe we are immune to what has happened elsewhere perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
sci.crypt	re the source of that announcement in article tcmayc o mrs netcom com tcmay netcom com timothy c may writes i know that at least one person on that list says the first he heard of clipper was in the friday morning newspaper and another has already fired off a letter of protest to nist my point i suspect this list interesting as it is for various reasons does not represent the cabal that put this proposal together some of them yes others no i received mail from mitch kapor saying that he did not ask to be on the list and does not know why he was added i m sure the same applies to others on the list so i guess my initial theory was right that the clipper list was just someone s idea of a bad joke i guess i should be happy it wasn t a conspiracy marc marc horowitz n nzu marc mit edu
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article apr yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes note that measures to protect yourself from tempest surveillance are still classified as far as i know i think this to be inaccurate one can buy tempest equipment commercially even macs david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re clipper chip technical details short summary of what bellovin says hellman says the nsa says there is a global key g plus one key u c for each chip c the user can choose a new session key k p for each phone call p he makes chip c knows three keys g its own u c and the user s k p the government as a whole knows g and every u c apparently a message m is encrypted as e g e u c k p c e k p m that s it the system as described here can t possibly work what happens when someone plugs the above ciphertext into a receiving chip to get m the receiving chip needs k p to get k p the receiving chip needs u c the only information it can work with is c if u c can be computed from c then the system is cryptographically useless and the key escrow is bullshit otherwise how is a message decrypted dan
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more douglas craig holland holland cs colostate edu writes with e mail if they can t break your pgp encryption they ll just call up one of their tempest trucks and read the electromagnetic emmisions from your computer or terminal note that measures to protect yourself from tempest surveillance are still classified as far as i know are lcd displays vulnerable to tempest if the new regime comes to fruition make sure you protect your first amendment rights by asserting your second amendment rights i ll second that jason i stood up on my van i yelled excuse me sir ain t nothing wrong with this country that a few plastic explosives won t cure steve taylor i blew up the clinic real good steiner jupiter cse utoledo edu
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more al escom com al donaldson writes amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor writes yes those evil guys in the fbi can probably with some effort abuse the system i got news for you if the evil guys in the fbi decide they want to persecute you they re gonna and if richard nixon had had this kind of toy he wouldn t have had to send people into the watergate this appears to be generic calling upon the name of the anti christ just for the hell of it let s destroy this remark let us imagine that the executive branch actually could extract keys from the escrow houses without anyone knowing or telling now what dick has bits of data what the hell s he gonna do with it trot around to the telco and say we d like an unauthorised decrypting tap uh huh break in to watergate and install his own tap so his people still do have to break in neat huh record some noise then get the executive branch phone decryption box huh they ve got one goodness wait til the washington post gets hold of this and decrypt the noise more likely stare at the key and say oh hell it s not worth all this bloody hassle truth is even granted lots of covert power on the part of the executive branch this system is more difficult to tap with than pots gear the fact that it is easier to tap than some hypothetical system neither you nor i am going to place on our phones is neither here nor there the only rational concerns i am seeing raised are a is the key really just chopped in half and not some xor arrangement that is has some egregious technical error been built in to the plan b is this is the first step toward strict regulation of strong encryption but that s not really the issue the real issue is whether this will be used to justify a ban against individuals use of private i e anything else encryption methods this is b of course i suspect not if the government actually wanted to make such regs they d just do it a few hundred people on usenet yelling about it wouldn t even slow the machine down besides who is this mysterious they who s going to take away all our rights the instant we let our guard down congress that gang of buffoons can t even balance their checkbooks the fbi but they don t make the laws the nsa ditto the white house bill clinton is probably still looking for the bathroom it s a big place after all andrew al
sci.crypt	re an open letter to mr clinton in article c oy z ily chinet chi il us schneier chinet chi il us bruce schneier writes in article strnlghtc m cv hx netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes here s a simple way to convert the clipper proposal to an unexceptionable one make it voluntary that is you get high quality secure nsa classified technology if you agree to escrow your key otherwise you are on your own as long as you are on your own means that you can use your own encryption i m sold bruce as am i if high quality secure nsa classified technology means handing my key over to whomever i ll take pgp any day right now they are billing it as voluntary i e bend over here it comes as soon as enough wiretap chip based units are out there how much easier do you think it will be to redefine on your own to mean write it yourself and don t even think about distributing it get honest no one is going to buy this trash if they know it s compromised already and less will buy it if the algorithm is not disclosed the nsa knows that making this stuff available to the public means handing it to whatever foreign powers are interested in the process since when has export control stopped anyone especially software wise ask yourself carefully if high quality secure nsa classified technology is something they are going to hand out not unless you can drive a nsa van through the holes uni dark uni acs bu edu public keys by finger and or request public key archives at pgp public keys pgp iastate edu df f b de b c c sovereignty is the sign of a brutal past cryptography is not a crime fight the big brother proposal
sci.crypt	who should be hearing my views on clipper being a browser of this group for some time and being very concerned about the clipper chip proposal i am hoping someone with more knowledge can help out who would be the most influential people to write to protesting the obvious next step hinted at by this proposal heads of what committees etc what are the major flaws in the plan from a cryptological standpoint shaun p hughes facts are stupid things sphughes sfsuvax sfsu edu ronald reagan republican national finger for pgp public key convention
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article apr ringer cs utsa edu whughes lonestar utsa edu william w hughes writes in article qpg finn dns nmsu edu amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor writes in article tcmayc m xv jex netcom com tcmay netcom com timothy c may writes tim may whose sig block may get him busted in the new regime isn t this just a little melodramatic not at all two weeks ago i registered a concern about some programming that was being conducted by a student organisation here at the university of texas at san antonio as a result i was interrogated by the capus police who also attempted to create a positive identification file photo fingerprints etc i refused to permit this and filed a complaint with the university administration the vice president for business affairs the boss of the campus police stated that he had no interest in the legal constitutional implications of those actions in article johnson trwacs johnson trwacs fp trw com steve johnson writes a remark i heard the other day is beginning to take on increasingly frightening significance the comment was made that in other parts of the world the democrats note the big d would be known as socialists we might get further if we begin by accepting that the government really couldn t be bothered less about the political opinions of the right wing pro establishment types just about the only circumstances in which i could think that they would be interested in their political views would be to recruit them as spooks they can be guaranteed to give the government line when it counts in us history it has been the socialists such as myself who have been persecuted now before people start asserting that there is no mechanism by which the administration can get their new chip adopted without legal force lets try thinking in the first place the clipper chip must have existed for several years as a defense project therefore this is not a party matter at all george bush was in any case hardly adverse to tapping calls he was chief spook remember secondly the govt can quite easily apply pressure they simply ask their chums who they give huge defense contracts to motorola etc to be nice boys after all bill is giving them a nice little trade monopoly since the chips won t be avaliable to foreign firms thirdly the people who consider the democrats to be socialist are not the same as the ones who consider socialists to be communist people might know this if the us education system did not suffer from the mcarthyite and dewy version of political correctness the sort with tribunals and show trials ever seen ed meese pissed i have it was when he said that socialism and communism were the same thing and brought the house down with laughter it took several minutes before we realised that he was serious phill hallam baker phill hallam baker
sci.crypt	big brother clipper chip there are some issues which come to mind when one considers the law enforcement aspects of the use of the big brother clipper chip the drug dealers and terrorists aren t going to let themselves be caught by using this type of encryption in the new york times reported that government investigators broke up a narcotics ring that was operating highly sophisticated equipment capable of allowing the leaders of the ring to eavesdrop on the law enforcement agents who were trying to arrest them a mr deely an nsa official said there are a lot of medium sized countries that would have been proud to have the signals intelligence operation of this group for every john gotti there are probably many more people who have the sophistication to know what the risks of unsecure communications are the press given to the big brother chip will only increase their numbers even if there is some benefit to law enforcement through the use of big brother it must be weighed against the constitutional and civil liberties questions involved for example in some areas of the world torture is used as an investigative tool by the local law enforcement people i suspect it is an effective means of obtaining information and shortening many investigations it probably also helps keep the conviction rate high the fact that the torture tool is not used in this country even with a court order obtained by showing probable cause is because we have rightly balanced the questions of expediency and what is ethically and morally right i think that the same question of expediency versus morality should come into play when considering the use of big brother i vote for morality i am quite disturbed by what i interpret as a veiled threat to prohibit the use of all encryption if this big brother chip is not put into wide spread use after a quick reading of the white house press release i came away with that impression to most of the american public the word hacker has rightly or wrongly come to mean high tech adolescent vandal it has struck me that most of the people posting to sci crypt regarding this issue are intelligent thoughtful individuals who have genuine concerns about the privacy and constitutional issues surrounding big brother i hope that the use of big brother does not become mandatory and other encryption become illegal i would hate to see this become some kind of high tech volstead act the high speed digital communications revolution is coming at us with the speed of an sst the times they are a changing and just as ibm is learning that they can t do business the same way they have done it for the past years maybe nsa should evaluate another approach eff who have correctly questioned the cryptographic strength of big brother may need to send a stronger message out regarding the constitutional issues involved al gore may want to think this one through a little more and as for dorothy elizabeth robling denning en quoi cela vous concerne cheri
sci.crypt	clipper chip and key exchange methods i was wanting to ask the same question dan bernstein asked how does the clipper chip exchange keys if the public key is only or bits long does anyone know of any public key schemes that are secure with that key size diffie hellman or maybe el gamal with p set to a constant value presumably the real scheme is something like exchange verify public keys send encrypted randomly generated session key encrypt decrypt voice trafic with some sort of fast stream cipher can anyone elaborate on this or show me what i m missing here john kelsey c mizzou missouri edu
sci.crypt	re is there any security in the clipper zeev ccc amdahl com ze ev wurman writes but do we really believe that the various governments including ours won t have the full lists of all the keys ever manufactured yes but they ll be encrypted with cripple chip encryption the encryption algorithm so great it s top secret and so unbreakable they won t even let you look at it doesn t that make you feel secure robert w clark just say no to the rclark nyx cs du edu big brother chip
sci.crypt	clipper chip how would it work with all the talk about this clipper chip i have developed one question how does it work if you use this then how does it get decrypted on the other end does the other party receiving the phone call mail etc have to know some code to undo it do i use a different method for calling one party than i would for another if the other party can decrypt it doesn t that mean that someone else could also i assume that if everyone has a different key the only use would be storing secure data for later retrieval by the same key this seems like a fundamental question to me but i have very little experience with cryptosystems other than des if someone could give me an explanation as to how it would be used remember that i have had little experience with this sort of thing it would be very much appreciated justin york jyork iastate edu
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article apr yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes with e mail if they can t break your pgp encryption they ll just call up one of their tempest trucks and read the electromagnetic emmisions from your computer or terminal note that measures to protect yourself from tempest surveillance are still classified as far as i know i don t know about classified but i do seem to remember that unless you re authorized by the govt it s illegal to tempest shield your equipment besides effective tempest shielding is much more difficult than you might think hi jim ra rogue cs neu edu rogue agent sod the nsa is now funding research not only in cryptography but in all areas of advanced mathematics if you d like a circular describing these new research opportunities just pick up your phone call your mother and ask for one
sci.crypt	fighting the clipper initiative here are some ideas for those of you who want to oppose the white house clipper chip crypto initiative i think this is going to be a tough measure to fight since the government has invested a lot of resources in developing this high profile initiative they are serious about it now it won t be as easy as it was defeating senate bill in possible actions to take in response mobilize your friends to to all the things on this list and more work the press talk with your local newspaper s science and technology reporter write to your favorite trade rags better yet write some articles yourself for your favorite magazines or newspapers explain why the clipper chip initiative is a bad idea remember to tailor it to your audience the general public may be slow to grasp why it s a bad idea since it seems so technical and arcane and innocent sounding try not to come across as a flaming libertarian paranoid extremist even if you are one lobby congress write letters and make phone calls to your member of congress in your own district as well as your two us senators many members of congress have aides that advise them of technology issues talk to those aides involve your local political parties the libertarian party would certainly be interested there are also libertarian wings of the democrat and republican parties the right to privacy has a surprisingly broad appeal spanning all parts of the political spectrum we have many natural allies the aclu the nra other activist groups that may someday find themselves facing a government that can suppress them much more efficiently if these trends play themselves out but you must articulate our arguments well if you want to draw in people who are not familiar with these issues contribute money to the electronic frontier foundation eff and computer professionals for social responsibility cpsr assuming these groups will fight this initiative they need money for legal expenses and lobbying mobilize opposition in industry companies that will presumably develop products that will incorporate the clipper chip should be lobbied against it from within and from without if you work for a telecommunications equipment vendor first enlist the aid of your coworkers and fellow engineers against this initiative and then present your company s management with a united front of engineering talent against this initiative write persuasive memos to your management with your name and your colleagues names on it hold meetings on it publicize deploy and entrench as much guerrilla techno monkeywrenching apparatus as you can that means pgp anonymous mail forwarding systems based on pgp pgp key servers etc the widespread availability of this kind of technology might also be used as an argument that it can t be effectively suppressed by government action i will also be working to develop new useful tools for these purposes be prepared to engage in an impending public policy debate on this topic we don t know yet how tough this fight will be so we may have to compromise to get most of what we want if we can t outright defeat it we may have to live with a modified version of this clipper chip plan in the end so we d better be prepared to analyze the government s plan and articulate how we want it modified philip zimmermann
sci.crypt	how can clipper stay classified maybe i don t know enough to know what i am asking but with millions of these things about how could the algorythm possibly stay secret couldn t some clever hackers just grind the thing down layer by layer and see how it worked brian mcbee mcbeeb atlantis cs orst edu finger me for pgp key
sci.crypt	why the clipper algorithm is secret the cryptographic protocol though is another matter i see no valid reasons for keeping it secret and as i hope i ve shown above there are a lot of ways to do things that aren t quite as bad it just occurred to me why the algorithm is secret if it were published one could then build physically identical clone versions of the chip that would interoperate with official clipper chips but the cloner wouldn t provide the keys to the escrow houses hmmn or is there a technical hack that i ve missed e g how about if the chips were made unprogrammed but serialized and then shipped to the two escrow houses who programmed in their halves of the keys but in a way that requires that secret keys known only to the escrow houses be installed as well without which clone versions wouldn t interoperate this is getting awfully complicated but that s crypto for you john r levine iecc pob cambridge ma johnl iecc cambridge ma us ima spdcc world iecc johnl time is money steal some today
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article c pgfu ia dscomsa desy de hallam zeus desy de writes views would be to recruit them as spooks they can be guaranteed to give the government line when it counts in us history it has been the socialists such as myself who have been persecuted and in russia capitalists were persecuted for trading goods on the black market and in the us capitalist minded types are imprisoned and killed for things such as selling drugs guns pornography and other victimless activities it doesn t matter whether you are socialist or capitalist power and control are central to government since citizens can t be trusted to run their own affairs the government must watch them for their own good of course i mean with strong cryptography citizens might gasp start to hide things from the irs sell drugs guns pornography and that cannot be allowed trials ever seen ed meese pissed i have it was when he said that socialism and communism were the same thing and brought the house down with laughter it took several minutes before we realised that he was serious not very surprising to anyone who believes in hands off government if you believe that your private life both social and financial are none of anyone else s business the difference between socialism and communism is like the difference between murder by lethal injection or by chainsaw the more centralized the economy is the more potential abuses for accumulation of information on individuals if you think credit companies are bad well i m sure a democratic socialist society would vote for absolute privacy of all citizens not
sci.crypt	re clipper chip technical details thus said djb silverton berkeley edu d j bernstein short summary of what bellovin says hellman says the nsa says there is a global key g plus one key u c for each chip c the user can choose a new session key k p for each phone call p he makes chip c knows three keys g its own u c and the user s k p the government as a whole knows g and every u c apparently a message m is encrypted as e g e u c k p c e k p m that s it the system as described here can t possibly work what happens when someone plugs the above ciphertext into a receiving chip to get m the receiving chip needs k p to get k p the receiving chip needs u c the only information it can work with is c if u c can be computed from c then the system is cryptographically useless and the key escrow is bullshit otherwise how is a message decrypted given the description of the algorithm given the only plausible explantion i can find is that k p must be agreed to out of bandwidth in advance by the two parties i e it s a standard shared symmetric key marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu mime ripem accepted security through diversion n theory which states that the public availability of good computer games is vital to maintaining system safety contrast security through obscurity
sci.crypt	what the clipper nay sayers sound like to me the following is available in some ftp archive somewhere i insert my comments liberally throughout this demonic memo of big brotherdom white house announcement on screw thread standards this is to announce that the american national standards institute or whatever it is has been given the authority to define standard dimensions for screw threads look this is clearly the first step toward outlawing our own screw thread specifications if this madness isn t fought tooth and nail every step of the way it ll be a crime to use screw threads other than those our fearless leaders so graciously define for us the purpose of this is to permit industry to draw upon a standard pool of specifications and designations to ensure interoperability of various threaded objects across vendors rubbish i say ansi standard screw threads will have subtle weaknesses allowing their agents to disassemble our automobiles more easily causing our mufflers to fall off at inoppurtune moments questions and answers on the ansi screw thread standards q will the screw threads defined by ansi be as good as other screw thread designs available elsewhere a yes hah trust us q will i be able to use my own screw threads if i desire a of course but this will make your threaded objects unlikely to interoperate correctly with others within the industry see see this is the first step it is clear we must band together write your congressman use pretty good screw threads not this devil inspired ansi trash protect your constitutional right to use whatever screw thread you desire guerilla screw thread activism must become the order of the day boycott gm and build your own car using screws from stz screw thread associates screw you bill clinton you and your totalitarianist thugs amolitor nmsu edu finger for pgst personal screw thread pitch or screw threads see the screw thread servers must be freed
sci.crypt	re white house wiretap chip disinformation sheet the attorney general will procure and utilize encryption devices to the extent needed to preserve the government s ability to conduct lawful electronic surveillance and to fulfill the need for secure law enforcement communications further the attorney general shall utilize funds from the department of justice asset forfeiture super surplus fund to effect this purchase this is the one part that really scares me without the keys it can likely be determined if a person is using the state approved encryption method and if not then that persons life is forfet and the profits go to making more busts and more profit power corrupts absolute power corrupts absolutely human nature has not changed very much in only a few hundred years curt howland howland nsipo nasa gov nsi operations center nasa ames
sci.crypt	re what the clipper nay sayers sound like to me a bunch of well meaning maybe cynnical text about screw thread sizes the rights of people to have their own standards and the non right of the gov to regulate screw threads well as funny as your little comment may seem it has very little to do with your personal privacy as a citizen and about the governemnt being able to look at everything you have ever typed into a computer at one point or another this clipper chip stuff is the seeds for nightmares to make the nightmare on elmstreet cheese on celluloid movies look like episodes of mr roger s neighborhood if the gov establishes a cryptography standard that has to be used by everyone and everyone s personal key is divided into two segments and stored at two separate albeit easy to find places and that key is only bits to begin with we are screwed pardon the allusion to the affore mentioned article the gov i believe as do many others probably already have the cracking chips for this clipper chip made hell they probably based the encoder on the chip that cracks it that way it s easier to break the code but since it is a classified algorythm no one knows that they can crack it so easily i for one and quite scared of this kind of thing and plan to support organizations and even disorganizations who are fighting against this clipper chip in any way that i can i do not want the government to be able to have access even with a search warrant to my keys and i don t want those keys to be only bits long to begin with nate sammons o o i hate quotations this message brought you by tell me what you know nate sammons and the number ralph waldo emerson ns longs lance colostate edu o o
sci.crypt	crypto conference i need to know the following information about the upcoming crypto conference the address to submit articles and the number of copies needed thanks jonathan demarrais jed pollux usc edu jay jed pollux usc edu university of southern california what a depressingly stupid machine marvin
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes what follows is my opinion it is not asserted to be the truth so no flames please it comes out of a background of years as a senior corporate staff executive in two fortune companies i d be happy to use a crypto system supplied by the nsa for business if they told me it was more secure than des and in particular resistant to attempts by japanese french and other competitive companies and governments to break i d be happy to do so even with escrowed keys provided i was happy about the bona fides of the escrow agencies the federal reserve would certainly satisfy me as would something set up by one of the big accounting firms i d trust the nsa or the president if they stated there were no trap doors i d be even happier if a committee of independent experts examined the thing under seal of secrecy and reported back that it was secure i d trust something from the nsa long before i d trust something from some swiss or anybody japanese a lot of us out here in the hinderland will trust the japanese before we ll trust the nsa the president or those stupid fortune companies you re so proud of this may seem surprising to some here but i suggest most corporations would feel the same way most many some pick one corporations have an attitude that the nsa is part of our government and we support our government as one very famous ceo put it to me one day just some perspective from another point of view and since the japanese corps aren t part of our government governors they may be more trusted out htere than you are people are getting tired of this be patriotic do whatever we say without question and pay more taxes attitude that comes from america s political party or should that be caste david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted phil fraering seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff pgf srl cacs usl edu like how the ancient mayans had televison repo man
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes with e mail if they can t break your pgp encryption they ll just call up one of their tempest trucks and read the electromagnetic emmisions from your computer or terminal note that measures to protect yourself from tempest surveillance are still classified as far as i know i don t think they are classified i could independently invent about half a dozen right off the top of my head if i had studied advanced e m a little better i could probably come up with a very good system if the new regime comes to fruition make sure you protect your first amendment rights by asserting your second amendment rights doug holland phil fraering seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff pgf srl cacs usl edu like how the ancient mayans had televison repo man
sci.crypt	some thoughts on clipper proposal i envision incorporation of new standart into various communication systems thus making it prevalent on the market therefore cheap the way to do that may be detaching crypto chip from communication equipment it seems logical to provide clipper chip to the end user not as a part of phone fax modem like but in the form of smart card compatible with various telecomm products banks will encourage extensive use of new cards to make transactions by phone natural step will be to cross reference this card to the person in the government databases or else this new version of wiretap proposal make no sence at all one wish to eavesdrop spell on the particular person not on the particular modem or phone as a side note i disagree with one poster who said he won t care about ability of the government to eavesdrop since they can do that now anyway clipper will take away electronic survelliance from citizens making it monopoly of the government may be we can find examples when interceptions made by unauthorised people uncovered crimes of state officials for pgp public key finger mkagalen lynx dac northeastern edu
sci.crypt	underground encryption was re text of white house announcement in article qmugcinnpu gap caltech edu hal cco caltech edu hal finney writes it looks like the worst nightmares raised by dorothy denning s proposals are coming true if the government continues on this course i imagine that we will see strong cryptography made illegal encryption programs for disk files and email as well as software to allow for encrypted voice communications will be distributed only through the underground people will have to learn how to hide the fact that they are protecting their privacy some thoughts has any work been done on encapsulating encrypted data inside non encrypted data files many file formats can be written with gaps in them to hide other data new file formats could be designed to have alternate data hidden by dispersing it amongst the legitimate data the hidden data would only show up with the right key s and a file with hidden data would be indistinguishable from one without so only the correct key s would reveal the presence of an illegal document if i devise a custom file compression algorithm and only i and a friend have the uncompressor and otherwise the file appears to be total gigerish do i have the right to transmit the file will we have to escrow all our data file formats are gangs required to escrow their hand signals colors and catch phrases i think that it s important to evaluate the content of electronic speach by replacing the media with pen and paper or verbal speach and then re ask the question
sci.crypt	unix crypt for dos i ve recently moved from unix to a dos box and have a number of files that i used crypt to protect does anyone know of a dos version of crypt i ve found one but it insists on six letter keys and i used some shorter ones thanks for your help doug
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article qpg finn dns nmsu edu amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor writes not to pick on mr may in particular of course but isn t this kind of the domino theory when one little country falls its neighbor will surely follow and before you know it we re all mining salt in siberia for not turning in our captain crunch secret decoder rings but for all the wrongness of our attempt to correct it vietnam et al the domino theory wasn t disproved at all
sci.crypt	re clipper some new thoughts the cryptographic algorythm must be kept secret or private individuals could make clipperclones with which they could transmit messages which the feds would not have ready access to this is clearly unacceptable i hope somebody starts doing this soon after the first ones are released
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article apr clarinet com brad clarinet com brad templeton writes once it hits land you can record it if you have telco access the telco isn t supposed to give that without a warrant that s the rule today but even so the evidence would not be admissible i think unless the judge so ordered i think that even interception of the crypttext without a warrant would be illegal cops can t record today s plain cellular calls and then ask a judge hey can we have permission to listen to those tapes can they how long do you think it will be before it becomes legal for the police to record encrypted conversations it s not violating your privacy because we can t read the encryption without a warrant with the usual good faith exception if they accidentally record a non encrypted conversation besides it s covered by the drug exception to the fourth amendment pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at t bell labs m holmdel nj no i m from new jersey i only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow in article apr yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes let me ask you this would you trust richard nixon with your crypto keys i wouldn t i take it you mean president nixon not private citizen nixon sure nothing i m doing would be of the slightest interest to president nixon david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re white house wiretap chip disinformation sheet in article wcs apr rainier att com wcs anchor ho att com bill stewart writes the attorney general will procure and utilize encryption devices to the extent needed to preserve the government s ability to conduct lawful electronic surveillance and to fulfill the need for secure law enforcement communications further the attorney general shall utilize funds from the department of justice asset forfeiture super surplus fund to effect this purchase this is a very curious thing to say stu iiis nsa designed secure telephones cleared for classified traffic are already readily available to law enforcement agencies word has it they re standard in every fbi office for example something like several hundred thousand of these phones exist in all they are clearly the us government standard so why does the doj need to buy new phones that unlike stu iiis will not be certified for classified traffic and in all likelihood will not be compatible with existing stu iiis unless of course they re gearing up for large scale decryption of civilian clipper users and they need compatible hardware phil
sci.crypt	re wh proposal from police point of view dwight tuinstra posts a very interesting message in which he comments on the effects of the clipper chip on state and local police actually reading between the lines it could be a very good thing for civil liberties in one respect since it will at least prevent cowboy cops and cowboy state and local agancies from reading your traffic if they tap it illegally there has been extensive discussion in the eff forum for example about inadmissible taps being used to develop information that could then lead to admissible evidence this might put a stop to such things which must from time to time be simple fishing expeditions david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re clipper chip technical details djb silverton berkeley edu d j bernstein writes summary elided the system as described here can t possibly work what happens when someone plugs the above ciphertext into a receiving chip to get m the receiving chip needs k p to get k p the receiving chip needs u c the only information it can work with is c if u c can be computed from c then the system is cryptographically useless and the key escrow is bullshit otherwise how is a message decrypted the description of the chip s operation evidently leaves out some of the key management aspects either the k p is the secret key corresponding to a public key which is broadcast at message initiation or it is the result of a diffie hellman key exchange or something similar either way there must be some protocols beyond those described here it isn t clear whether they are implemented in the clipper wiretap chip or must be provided by other system components hal finney
sci.crypt	re clipper chip technical details in article apr silverton berkeley edu djb silverton berkeley edu d j bernstein writes short summary of what bellovin says hellman says the nsa says there is a global key g plus one key u c for each chip c the user can choose a new session key k p for each phone call p he makes chip c knows three keys g its own u c and the user s k p the government as a whole knows g and every u c apparently a message m is encrypted as e g e u c k p c e k p m that s it the system as described here can t possibly work what happens when someone plugs the above ciphertext into a receiving chip to get m the receiving chip needs k p to get k p the receiving chip needs u c the only information it can work with is c if u c can be computed from c then the system is cryptographically useless and the key escrow is bullshit otherwise how is a message decrypted via k p of course nothing was said about where k p comes from it s the session key though and it s chosen however you usually choose session keys exponential key exchange shared secret rsa etc but however you choose it the chip will apparently emit the escrow header when you do
sci.crypt	corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes what follows is my opinion it is not asserted to be the truth so no flames please it comes out of a background of years as a senior corporate staff executive in two fortune companies i d be happy to use a crypto system supplied by the nsa for business if they told me it was more secure than des and in particular resistant to attempts by japanese french and other competitive companies and governments to break i d be happy to do so even with escrowed keys provided i was happy about the bona fides of the escrow agencies the federal reserve would certainly satisfy me as would something set up by one of the big accounting firms i don t doubt that this will be the attitude of many corporate leaders it s understandable most corporate execs don t know much about cryptology and it s easy to get taken in by someone peddling snake oil and the proposed scheme is a major improvement in telephone security to what exists now the problem is that with any security scheme of this kind you have to concern yourself with the weakest link in the chain i suspect that nsa has put a fairly strong encryption algorithm in this wiretap chip of theirs probably at least as strong as say des in ofb mode unfortunately the existence of the key registry system seems to make possible all kinds of possible attacks at a small fraction of the expense of trying to build say a des keysearch machine as originally described it sounded like any police court combination could acquire the key for a given chip i hope that s not the case since it would imply a glaring hole how much does it cost to find one crooked jodge and one crooked cop especially for a foreign intelligence agency or organized crime boss however even if more intelligent schemes are used to allow access to the unencrypted phone conversations there will be weak nesses they may be very expensive and very difficult but who would trust his her confidential information to an encryption scheme that for say could by cracked one time in a hundred des for all the complaints about a bit key would probably cost several million dollars to build a keysearch machine for how many million dollars would the confidential phone messages of the gm headquarters be worth to nissan chrysler or audi how about home phones of major execs and important engineers and designers gee mr jones i understand you ve had some financial problems lately maybe i can help i d trust something from the nsa long before i d trust something from some swiss or anybody japanese indeed if nsa really designed the algorithm to be secure it s very likely as secure as idea or key des however the system as a whole isn t resistant to practical cryptanalysis in the puzzle palace bamford describes how several nsa employees were turned by foreign presumably kgb agents despite security measures that i doubt any big accounting firm could match and nsa confidential data was not subject to being requested by thousands of police organizations and courts across the land john kelsey c mizzou missouri edu
sci.crypt	re why the clipper algorithm is secret in apr iecc cambridge ma us johnl iecc cambridge ma us john r levine writes quoting someone else here the cryptographic protocol though is another matter i see no valid reasons for keeping it secret and as i hope i ve shown above there are a lot of ways to do things that aren t quite as bad it just occurred to me why the algorithm is secret if it were published one could then build physically identical clone versions of the chip that would interoperate with official clipper chips but the cloner wouldn t provide the keys to the escrow houses hmmn yeah the algorithm is classified because a military contract or similar government equivalent to military has been let for this proprietary design that the feds say that nsa developed is there a patent is that patent publicly available my betting is that that too is classified if the algorithm were made public or reverse engineered it would compromise not only the goal of justice of being able to read every chip users cypto data but would reduce profits for the selected chip maker wouldn t that just be too bad danny o bedlam dfl panix com cmcl panix dfl danny lieberman po box church st station new yawk new yawk usa
sci.crypt	the wiretap chip clones and secure key exchange u uicvm uic edu writes the cryptographic algorythm must be kept secret or private individuals could make clipperclones with which they could transmit messages which the feds would not have ready access to not necessarily i ve been thinking about this and if this chip scheme is to provide any real security there must be some sort of key exchange either using a public key encryption scheme or using a key exchange scheme like diffie hellman if there s an out of band transmission of a shared session key then what protects that band from eavesdropping if the phone company or some other online central authority generates a session key and sends it to both users then what s the point of going to the trouble of having some complicated key depositories just ask the phone company for a copy of the session key for each call now it s probably not practical for each user to keep an online copy of every public key used by anyone anywhere right so probably there will be some way of getting these keys verified this might be a digitally signed by the chip manufacturer copy of the public key in this unit stored by this unit it might also be an online directory with access to everyone s public keys this would introduce another weakness to the security of the scheme of course presumably if you don t use your designated key you can t get a verified connection to other standard chips it might be useful to have a modified chip which would allow you to use either the original public private key pair or some other key pair and verification scheme unfortunately this would not allow you to call most people and establish secure communications john kelsey i hope somebody starts doing this soon after the first ones are released
sci.crypt	re how to detect use of an illegal cipher in article c nmb cof news claremont edu ebrandt jarthur claremont edu eli brandt writes get their copy of your key any criminal who s going to use encryption will do it under cover of clipper the only way to avoid this will be to try to prohibit strong encryption this isn t true today s criminals regularly use all sorts of unsafe methods from cordless phones to cellular phones to plain old copper wire analog phones that you can put alligator clips on to plan and execute their crimes it is amazing how stupid they are which is why the fbi was so keen on the digital telphony law and its successor the clipper chip they re hoping here that most crooks will remain stupid feel safe using clipper chip phones and get caught brad templeton clarinet communications corp sunnyvale ca
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu jebright magnus acs ohio state edu james r ebright writes in article brad clarinet com brad templeton writes the greatest danger of the escrow database if it were kept on disk would be the chance that a complete copy could somehow leak out you of course then it s hard to backup however i think the consequences of no backup the data is not there when a warrant comes are worse than the consequences of a secret backup if the data isn t there when the warrant comes you effectively have secure crypto if secret backups are kept then you effectively have no crypto thus this poster is essentialy arguing no crypto is better than secure crypto no the poster me has his brain in the wrong gear as you can infer from the first sentence i meant the consequences of no backup are better than the consequences of an easy to copy database brad templeton clarinet communications corp sunnyvale ca
sci.crypt	competing standard perhaps one way of getting away from this cripple chip that the u s government seems to be pushing would be to come up with a good alternative for example how about a scheme using rsa and some hybrid of des cfb and another strong stream cipher maybe idea cfb this could be substantially the same as the cripple chip except that instead of key registration the police could demand that you give up your secret key to them with a court issued warrant then they could read the last few months of wiretapped messages you ve sent and assuming you ve committed no crimes you could generate a new key pair and go about your business i find that i d be willing to pay rsa for the right to use such a system especially given the alternative if you were unwilling to give up your secret key then you d probably stay in jail has anyone got a real legal precedent for this this would allow court issued warrants to be used to gather information on suspected criminals but it couldn t be done in secrecy and there would be enormously less likelihood of corruption or theft of escrowed keys maybe someone from the law enforcement or intelligent community will correct me but this doesn t seem like such a big loss in terms of law enforcement capabilities any comments john kelsey
sci.crypt	re clipper chip technical details in article apr ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes nothing was said about where k p comes from oh hellman said each user will get to choose his or her own key that s the key which i called k p the session key according to hellman if alice and bob are communicating with the clipper chip then alice chooses her own key and bob chooses his own key this is incompatible with the suggestion that when alice and bob are talking they use a common k p chosen by classical or public key approaches the protocol key management description published so far is either incomplete or incorrect it leaves me with no idea of how the system would actually work i hope the cpsr foia request succeeds so that we get full details dan
sci.crypt	re fighting the clipper initiative prz sage cgd ucar edu philip zimmermann writes philip i think your ideas are well taken and constructive thanks for articulating them in this forum work the press talk with your local newspaper s science and technology reporter write to your favorite trade rags better yet write some articles yourself for your favorite magazines or newspapers explain why the clipper chip initiative is a bad idea remember to tailor it to your audience the general public may be slow to grasp why it s a bad idea since it seems so technical and arcane and innocent sounding try not to come across as a flaming libertarian paranoid extremist even if you are one as a flaming libertarian paranoid extremist i at a loss for specific objections that don t sound frighteningly technical any suggestions perhaps somebody could post a list of these mobilize opposition in industry companies that will presumably develop products that will incorporate the clipper chip should be lobbied against it from within and from without if you work for a telecommunications equipment vendor first enlist the aid of your coworkers and fellow engineers against this initiative and then present your company s management with a united front of engineering talent against this initiative write persuasive memos to your management with your name and your colleagues names on it hold meetings on it one way to do this might be to suggest that these companies should be implementing their own schemes not being limited to the govt s scheme i find that most of my reasons for opposition to the clipper scheme are algoritm insecurity and mistrust of the govt nsa these are hard to sell in letters to the editor and to nontechnical people any hints or advice maybe a small faq type thing why should i hate clipper would be a good idea james holthaus james holthaus uiowa edu government is an association of men who do violence to the rest of us leo tolstoy pgp public key available on request or from key server
sci.crypt	re why the clipper algorithm is secret johnl iecc cambridge ma us john r levine writes the cryptographic protocol though is another matter i see no valid reasons for keeping it secret and as i hope i ve shown above there it just occurred to me why the algorithm is secret if it were published one could then build physically identical clone versions i recall seeing a post some time ago saying that if the details of an encryption scheme couldn t be revealed then the encryption scheme is worthless i believe the statement was in response to somebody saying that they had some new snazzy scheme but the algorithm was a secret does this algorithm depend on the fact that the scheme is secret or is it for the stated reasons above mike
sci.crypt	re fighting the clipper initiative as a flaming libertarian paranoid extremist i at a loss for specific objections that don t sound frighteningly technical the idea that foisting the cripple chip standard on us manufacturers would result in saying sayonara to yet another high tech market isn t technical isn t in the least difficult to understand and plays on a concern lots of people are worried about already
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryp brad clarinet com brad templeton writes let s assume for the moment that the system really is secure unless you get both halves of the encryption key from the two independent escrow houses let s say you even trust the escrow houses one is the aclu and the other is the eff and i m not entirely joking about those two names hi i m new to internet so this is a bit of a test message so even a token reply would be very appreciated anyways reading this i d figure this would be as excellent a method of corrupting the aclu and the eff as could be wished for who gaurds the guardians etc
sci.crypt	re automatic online encryption of data from andersom spot colorado edu marc anderson also how about a box that you plug your phone into which would allow encrypted voice communications with someone who has a similar box digitizing input speech transmitting and decrypting on the other end i don t know how a public key system could work in this regard but it might heh heh i posted this just before reading all the clinton chip messages i guess they beat me to it anyway i think it would be a great idea to develop such a product perhaps in the underground as it would otherwise probably become illegal pretty quickly here it s really very feasible and shouldn t be too expensive all that s needed is a box with a phone jack on one side a dsp in the middle to do codec functions of speech compressed bytestream and an rs on the other side you d plug your phone into it plug the rs into your computer and have a good old fashioned normal modem on your other rs port the cpu in the middle would do the encryption with a version of pgp modified to work on a byte stream with v bis or better modems to carry the bytestream it should work quality would only be marginally lower than a normal telephone at the very highest price you could use one of those voice mail compatible modems to do the digitisation that puts an upper bound of about on the cost of such a box in practice you really ought to be able to get the price well below i could do it now in software on my cheap nasty home risc box acorn archimedes with the digitising microphone i bought for pounds if i knew how to write good speech compression software which i don t the reason it won t work of course is that hardly anyone will have one the only consumer equipment to have encryption will use the wiretap chip economics i m afraid however we can get about kcps throughput on the internet even with the bottleneck of a v bis modem when we get isdn for all ha ha ha and the new nren it might then be trivial to run compressed speech over a tcp ip connection on the internet perhaps we should start thinking now of a standard to keep voice on the internet compatible for everyone and side step the clipper stuff and use internet for all our phone calls in future joking g
sci.crypt	re clipper chip technical details the protocol key management description published so far is either incomplete or incorrect it leaves me with no idea of how the system would actually work i hope the cpsr foia request succeeds so that we get full details wouldn t it be easier just to ask denning cs georgetown edu g
sci.crypt	re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip indeed if nsa really designed the algorithm to be secure it s very likely as secure as idea or key des however the system as a whole isn t resistant to practical cryptanalysis in the puzzle palace bamford describes how several nsa employees were turned by foreign presumably kgb agents despite security measures that i doubt any big accounting firm could match and nsa confidential data was not subject to being requested by thousands of police organizations and courts across the land ah yes don t anyone mention ronald william pelton heh heh heh how embarrassing g nsa kgb
sci.crypt	clipper proposal key length danny weitzner djw eff org writes april initial eff analysis of clinton privacy and security proposal details of the proposal escrow the bit key will be divided between two escrow agents each of whom hold bits of each key the manufacturer of the communications device would be required to register all keys with the two independent escrow agents a key is tied to the device however not the person using it so if we subvert one of the two escrow agents we only have a bit space to search through doesn t sound that big is digital telephony subject to a known plaintext attack in which case half the key seems to be all that is needed and the two agent escrow arrangement is pointless of course the unknown algorithm might turn gaps in speech into pseudo random sequences or there might be some magic involved or mike bell promis com
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption in article bontchev fbihh bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de writes and since the us constitutions guarantees the right to every american to bear arms why is not every american entitled as a matter of have you read the applicable part of the constitution and interpreted it in context if not please do so before posting this misinterpretation again it refers to the right of the people to organize a militia not for individuals to carry handguns grenades and assault rifles robert l ward
sci.crypt	off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip in article bb c mizzou missouri edu c mizzou missouri edu john kelsey writes strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes stuff deleted existence of the key registry system seems to make possible all kinds of possible attacks at a small fraction of the expense of trying to build say a des keysearch machine as originally described it sounded like any police court combination could acquire the key for a given chip i hope that s not the case since it would imply a glaring hole how much does it cost to find one crooked jodge and one crooked cop especially for a foreign intelligence agency or organized crime boss however even if more intelligent schemes are used to allow access to the unencrypted phone conversations there will be weak nesses they may be very expensive and very difficult but who would trust his her confidential information to an encryption scheme that for say could by cracked one time in a hundred des for all the complaints about a bit key would probably cost several million dollars to build a keysearch machine for i can buy a des keysearch machine off the shelf now for approx k but it is not sold by that name go buy a circuit emulation machine eg quickturn containing a bunch of fpgas say to s and program each to be a des search engine lets say chips running at mhz g tests sec time is e sec max weeks weeks average can t wait that long buy a bigger machine david lewis
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor writes not to pick on mr may in particular of course but isn t this kind of the domino theory when one little country falls its neighbor will surely follow and before you know it we re all mining salt in siberia for not turning in our captain crunch secret decoder rings there was an interesting column on the editorial page of the dallas morning news on saturday by walter williams who i believe is a professor at georgetown i wonder if he knows of dorothy you re not in kansas anymore denning the article was titled government slowly eroding our liberties and in it he tells a story attributed to the late leonard read who explained that if you wanted to take liberty away from americans you had to know how to cook a frog mr read said you can t cook a frog by boiling a pot of water and then throwing the frog in his reflexes are so quick that as soon as his feet touch the water he will leap away you must put the frog in a pot of cold water and heat it up bit by bit by the time the frog realizes he s being cooked it is too late it is the same with americans if anyone tried to take our freedoms all at once we would naturally rebel and suppress the tyrant but as with successful frog cooking our liberties can be taken a little bit at a time the last line of the article says it s not too late for us but the water is getting pretty warm i d have toagree that it s warm and the clipper is keeping the temperature on an upward course note followups redirected to alt privacy clipper jim jdailey asic sc ti com ti pays absolutely no attention to me or my opinions therefore the foregoing information cannot possibly represent ti s viewpoint
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption in article apr clarinet com brad clarinet com brad templeton writes let s assume for the moment that the system really is secure unless you get both halves of the encryption key from the two independent escrow houses let s say you even trust the escrow houses one is the aclu and the other is the eff and i m not entirely joking about those two names in that case the prince of wales has nothing to worry about on this system i must respectfully disagree with this assertion brad the government is notoriously sloppy with physical communications and information security they can t keep their computers safe and they re trying read dea is not adequately protecting national security information gao imtec for an excellent example of what i m talking about private sector organizations tend to be even more lax in their security measures i believe that the escrow organizations will be penetrated by foreign intelligence services within months if not weeks of their selection private organizations that lack the resources of a full fleged intelligence service will take longer perhaps on the order of one to two years nonetheless the penetrations will take place without question philip r moyer ecn software staff engineering computer network voice prm ecn purdue edu fax
sci.crypt	re an open letter to mr clinton strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes here s a simple way to convert the clipper proposal to an unexceptionable one make it voluntary as usually you are not reading the proposal does say that it is a voluntary program this doesn t make it more desirable though that is you get high quality secure nsa classified technology if you agree to escrow your key otherwise you are on your own secure how do you know because nsa is trying to make you believe it trust us yeah right otherwise you are on your own how do you know that tomorrow they will not outlaw encrypring devices that don t use their technology because they are promising you gee they are not doing even that read the proposal again regards vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center university of hamburg tel fax fachbereich informatik agn pgp public key available on request vogt koelln strasse rm c e mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de d hamburg germany
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes what follows is my opinion it is not asserted to be the truth so no flames please it is incompetent like almost anything you have posted here so you ll be flamed sorry it comes out of a background of years as a senior corporate staff executive in two fortune companies your years of background in two fortune companies i ve lived years under a totalitarian regime and boy i can recognize a totalitarian plot when i see one i d be happy to use a crypto system supplied by the nsa for business if they told me it was more secure than des and in particular resistant to i am sure that you would be happy to use anything they tell you is secure we re talking about the intelligent people here or the criminal ones if you don t like the previous sentence or those who don t want their privacy to be guaranteed to be invadable by the government any current and future government mind you i d be happy to do so even with escrowed keys provided i was happy about the bona fides of the escrow agencies the federal reserve would certainly satisfy me as would something set up by one of the big accounting firms even if you ignore the nonsense of the above statement for a moment and even if you are happy with such system and the current escrow agencies now what guarantees that you ll be happy with them tomorrow when the government changes or when the current government throws away the sheep skin all the sheep who are reasoning like you will get caught by surprise but it will be too late because then cryptography that is not guaranteed to be breakable by the government will already have been outlawed after all you ve already got privacy that is said to be breakable only by the law enforcement agencies so if you are law abiding you have no reasons to use a stronger one right so if you are using a stronger one you have something to hide from the law enforcement agencies right something unlawful right therefore strong crypto is a clear idndication that you are doing something unlawful i d trust the nsa or the president if they stated there were no trap considering the level of competence in cryptology that you have demonstrated in your messages you would trust just anything and no this is not an ad hominem attack it s an attack against the contents of your messages grin doors i d be even happier if a committee of independent experts examined the thing under seal of secrecy and reported back that it was secure and how do you know that these experts are not corrupted and how do you know that they will not make a mistake and how do you know that the version of the algorithm they will be let to examine is the same as the one that will be really used regarding the mistake even the few information they have let out has revealed a serious security hole in the protocol the bit key is split in two bit ones thus the whole system is easily breakable if you have only one of the keys i d trust something from the nsa long before i d trust something from some swiss or anybody japanese the swiss or the japanese are motivated by simple greed nsa is motivated by their wish to control the people that s why the drug dealers have their accounts in swiss banks instead of in american ones for some reason they do trust the swiss banks more guess they ll trust the swiss encryption more too i see idea becoming suddenly popular this may seem surprising to some here but i suggest most corporations would feel the same way most many some pick one corporations have an attitude that the nsa is part of our government and we support our government as one very famous ceo put it to me one day it s not surprising at all but not because of the reason you give it s because it is obvious that the us government has put a lot of money behind this program and it will support it thus most corporations will try to get their piece from the pie by supporting it too the same good old greed strong encryption is not widely available now not because of some plot but because the companies don t see much money in it it will be available even less if the companies can see any penalties associated with it just some perspective from another point of view yeah just as i predicted you are here again to support the new system regards vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center university of hamburg tel fax fachbereich informatik agn pgp public key available on request vogt koelln strasse rm c e mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de d hamburg germany
sci.crypt	re what the clipper nay sayers sound like to me nathaniel sammons ns lance colostate edu wrote on mon apr gmt if the gov establishes a cryptography standard that has to be used by everyone and everyone s personal key is divided into two segments and stored at two separate albeit easy to find places and that key is only bits to begin with we are screwed pardon the allusion to the affore mentioned article the gov i believe as do many others probably already have the cracking chips for this clipper chip made hell they probably based the encoder on the chip that cracks it that way it s easier to break the code but since it is a classified algorythm no one knows that they can crack it so easily agreed no agency such as the nsa or whoever would approve the public release of a crypto system if they didn t already have the technical means or the know how to decrypt everything at their whim surely the whole point of all this madness is to make joe public think that his her communications will be kept safe while james bond at the nsa can if need be have full decrypted access to someone s communications that ll be quite a heist if they can pull it off i thought that the us government were going to release the algorithm to a panel of carefully chosen experts who would then study it deeply and report their findings exactly who will these people be academics or government sponsored researchers tiny toons i for one and quite scared of this kind of thing and plan to support organizations and even disorganizations who are fighting against this clipper chip in any way that i can i can only hope that the same sort of thing doesn t start filtering over into the ears of the uk government and if the european parliament gets wind of it well we can kiss goodbye to any form of democracy in europe at all i do not want the government to be able to have access even with a search warrant to my keys and i don t want those keys to be only bits long to begin with hallelujah rick m tait bell northern research europe tel fax network management systems pgp public key available on request new southgate london uk email ricktait bnr co uk rt cix compulink co uk ricktait bnr ca
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes though some may argue about the nose of the camel it s worth noting that the government proposal is limited to scrambled telephony if it is only used for that purpose and does not extend to electronic mail or file as usual david sternlight is demonstrating his inability to read the proposal clearly states the initiative will involve the creation of new products to accelerate the development and use of advanced and secure telecommunications networks and wireless communications links it speaks about telecommunications in general read it again david maybe you ll understand it the next time nah probably not encryption then it is an improvement over the current mass produced standard civilian technology which with a few exceptions is limited to easy to break inverters that s exactly what the government wants all sheep minded people to think let s look at the current situation it allows to almost anybody to eavesdrop almost everybody unless secure and i mean secure encryption is used what will happen when if ha optimists the new proposal gets accepted almost nobody except some will be able to eavesdrop everybody else but the ability of these some to eavesdrop will be guaranteed the proposal emphasizes on the former almost nobody which is clearly an improvement and forgets to mention the drawbacks of the latter guaranteed yes my statement assumes that the next step will be to make the strong crypto unlawful you think that it will not happen good luck note that the big issue for the feds is the continued ability to wiretap it s not just continued ability it s guaranteed ability before we go off the deep end with long discusions about secure crypto for e mail and files let s focus on this yeah that s exactly what your government wants you to think let s take small steps one at a time concentrate on the current one don t think about the future trust us one question that was not asked in the release is whether this proposal is limited to telephony or if the government intends to expand it it s not asked because the proposal clearly says that this is the intention they unlike you read what they write though i share many of the concerns expressed by some i find the proposal less threatening than many others since right now most americans have no secure telephony and any jerk with a pair of clip leads and a goat can eavesdrop this would also plug up the security hole in cellular and cordless phones yes it will it will stop the jerk who is eavesdropping now it will allow only to the government to eavesdrop if the scheme is secure of course which is yet to be proven but how do you know that the jerk you are fearing now will not get a government job tomorrow the new proposal guarantees him the ability to eavesdrop then hell that will even motivate him to get that job if he indeed is that mentally pervert reading between the lines i infer that the system is highly secure without access to the keys great the greatest cryptographer of all times david sternlight tm has succeeded to evaluate the new system in the absense of any details whatsoever and has concluded that it is highly secure i guess that comes from the background of working some years for the two major crypto evaluating companies right gee now the government can save all that money and trouble to ask a secret council of crypto experts to secretly analyse the new secret method for david sternlight has already done all the job for them this would meet the needs of u s businesses confronted by rich and powerful adversaries including french and japanese security services and rich japanese companies it allows the nsa to make available some of its better stuff while protecting law enforcement needs trust us we re from the government and we re here to help you most legitimate u s corporations trust the nsa and would be delighted to have a high security system certified by them even at the price of depositing keys in escrow i see no difficulty in creating a reliable those who are prepared to trade their liberties for the promises of future safety do not deserve either this or something like that i don t have the exact quote but the meaning is the same has been said by one of your great men maybe you should study their works more carefully if you have the brains to understand them of course from my point of view this is a fair starting point there are concerns that need to be addressed including the reliability of the escrows but in the main question is to guarantee to availability of really secure cryptography to the masses gee if the proposal was saying we guarantee that every american will still have the full right to use any kind of encryption s he would like and regard this proposal as just a default voluntary implementation there would have been much less opposition for some reason they didn t even try to promise you that i wonder why was orwell off only by years return we get access to high security crypto no in return you get crypto that is guaranteed to be crippled many have suggested that des and other systems may be breakable by the nsa and hence others similarly skilled and endowed while the above is just rumors and while even if it is true it is not done easily the new scheme can is guaranteed to be easily breakable by anybody who has the two keys it might be also breakable by somebody who does not have them but knows the right trick or who has only one of them nsa also told you that des is secure why don t you simply trust them huh there is at least a good possibility which should be checked that the proposed system is not so breakable it doesn t have to it is guaranteed to be easily breakable just get the keys it might be even easier but until there is some evidence this is just a wild speculation be nor does it have to have trapdoors if the government can get the keys the trapdoors are there in government s hands the keys pursuant to a legitimate court order thus they can protect legitimate communications against economic adversaries while still being able to eavesdrop on crooks pursuant to a court order legitimate and who decides what communications are legitimate oh i guess it s the government right the guys who already have the keys it s kinda if i have the keys from your car and i am asked to decide who has the right to use it legitimately in discussing this let s try to avoid the nastiness personal attacks and noise of some previous threads impossible since you are demonstrating the same level of incompetence and ignorance as in the provious threads this is a substantive and technical issue and personal remarks have no place in such a discussion unfortunately i have yet to see you posting a technically competent message regards vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center university of hamburg tel fax fachbereich informatik agn pgp public key available on request vogt koelln strasse rm c e mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de d hamburg germany
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes nothing i m doing would be of the slightest interest to president nixon a typical example of seep minded thinking we all know that david sternlight is a jerk but i m afraid that in this case of the population will think like him realize it guys nsa dorothy denning and the us government have already won the battle unless unless you succeed to wake up the people but nah that s too unlikely the events are happening too fast cryptography is a too sophisticated issue and almost nobody cares anyway a few thousand of net readers won t make the difference if millions are caught asleep too sad regards vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center university of hamburg tel fax fachbereich informatik agn pgp public key available on request vogt koelln strasse rm c e mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de d hamburg germany
sci.crypt	more technical details here are some corrections and additions to hellman s note courtesy of dorothy denning again this is reposted with permission two requests first note the roles of s and s it appears to me and others that anyone who knows those values can construct the unit key and the nature of the generation process for k and k is such that neither can be produced alone thus the scheme cannot be implemented such that one repository generates the first half key and another generates the second that is ominous second these postings are not revealed scripture nor are they carefully crafted spook postings don t attempt to draw out hidden meanings as opposed to say the official announcements of clipper leave denning out of this given hellman s record of opposition to des which goes back before some folks on this newsgroup knew how to read i don t think you can impugn his integrity oh yeah the folks who invented clipper aren t stupid if you think something doesn t make sense it s almost certainly because you don t understand their goals steve bellovin date sun apr edt from denning cs georgetown edu dorothy denning subject re clipper chip to a long list of folks i was also briefed by the nsa and fbi so let me add a few comments to marty s message the clipper chip will have a secret crypto algorithm embedded in the algorithm operates on bit blocks like des and the chip supports all des modes of operation the algorithm uses rounds of scrambling compared with in des in addition to the system key each user will get to choose his or her own key and change it as often as desired call this key plain old k when a message is to be sent it will first be k is the session key shared by the sender and receiver any method e g public key can be used to establish the session key in the at t telephone security devices which will have the new chip the key is negotiated using a public key protocol encrypted under k then k will be encrypted under the unit key uk and the serial number of the unit added to produce a three part message which will then be encrypted under the system key sk producing e e m k e k uk serial number sk my understanding is that e m k is not encrypted under sk called the family key and that the decrypt key corresponding to sk is held by law enforcement does anyone have first hand knowledge on this i will also check it out but this is am sunday so i did not want to wait the unit key will be generated as the xor of two bit random numbers k and k uk k k which will be kept by the two escrow the unit key also called the chip key is generated from the serial number n as follows let n n and n be bit blocks derived from n and let s and s be two bit seeds used as keys compute the bit block r e d e n s s s note that this is like using the des in triple encryption mode with two keys similarly compute blocks r and r starting with n and n i m unlear about whether the keys s and s change the fact that they re called seeds suggests they might then r r and r are concatenated together giving bits the first bits form k and the next bits form k the remaining bits are discarded authorities who these escrow authorities will be is still to be decided by the attorney general but it was stressed to me that they will not be nsa or law enforcement agencies that they must be parties acceptable to the users of the system as unbiased marty is right on this and the fbi has asked me for suggestions please pass them to me along with your reasons in addition to marty s criteria i would add that the agencies must have an established record of being able to safeguard highly sensitive information some suggestions i ve received so far include sri rand mitre the national labs sandia lanl los alamos treasury gao when a court order obtains k and k and thence k the law enforcement agency will use sk to decrypt all information flowing on the suspected link aside it is my guess that they may do this constantly on all links with or without a court order since it is almost impossible to tell which links over which a message will flow my understanding is that there will be only one decode box and that it will be operated by the fbi the service provider will isolate the communications stream and pass it to the fbi where it will pass through the decode box which will have been keyed with k for the wiretap authorizations when levy asked for the details so he could review the cases as required by law the agent told him that his predecessors just turned over blank signed forms every time levi did not comply and changed the system but the lesson is clear no single person or authority should have the power to authorize wiretaps no single person does at least for fbi taps after completing a mound of paperwork an agent must get the approval of several people on a chain that includes fbi legal counsel before the request is even taken to the attorney general for final approval dorothy denning
sci.crypt	re wh proposal from police point of view strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes dwight tuinstra posts a very interesting message in which he comments on the effects of the clipper chip on state and local police actually reading between the lines it could be a very good thing for civil liberties in one respect since it will at least prevent cowboy cops and cowboy state and local agancies from reading your traffic if they tap it illegally instead of reading between the lines try to think a little bit ok if that s way too difficult to you here are some hints indeed the new proposal imposes some additional burocratic burden on the local police if they badly want to tape the magic cookie recipie that your mom is telling you on the phone so guess what they will do propose that the new technology is removed or implement some facilitations of course you won t want to wait until they get the approval from two different agencies to decrypt the conversation between two child molesters because meanwhile those two child molesters might be conspiring about molesting your child right so there should be some way for them to get access to those keys quickly right like they could have a copy of the database and worry about a warrant later regards vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center university of hamburg tel fax fachbereich informatik agn pgp public key available on request vogt koelln strasse rm c e mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de d hamburg germany
sci.crypt	re powerful similarity too i ve been asked to supply more specific directions for automated fetching of the source and documentation for agrep the powerful similarity pattern matching tool it is at cs arizona edu in directory agrep readme agrep agrep tar z agrep agrep ps z agrep agrep ps z the ps suffixed files are the optional postscript docs a reasonably good research report with benchmarks is included note for macintosh mpw users after a few hours of drudgery i ported the tool to mpw running under system if you would like me to e mail a binhexed copy of the tool suitable for dropping in to your mpw tools folder please write other than the more purely cryptographic uses for the tool i ve been having lots of fun picking up the lost references to things i m interested in for example starting a search like agrep i burning chrome cyberpunkspool immediately finds references like burning crome that i have always missed before see how many times john gilmore s name is mentioned in the cud archives and how often misspelled how about your name as usual i will e mail the uuencoded tar z upon request if you cannot do anonymous ftp grady netcom com ef e ad d d c f fc ac f d f e f
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption misinterpretation though it should be a crime in itself is what united states lawyers use to make their bread and butter in manchester ct a few years ago a small company wanted to run a game system galled lasergames similar in many aspects to photon tm three lawyers and about a hundred citizens found an ancient law in manchester s books which clearly from context was designed to prohibit travelling carnivals by enumerating the features of a carnival which they felt at the time made the prohibition obvious among these things was shooting galleries which is what the lawyers for the opposition to lasergames wanted to harp upon the judge took the two words from this law completely out of context and ruled that lasergames could not operate in manchester keep in mind that most travelling carnivals use projectile weapons in their shooting galleries and not light beams clearly from context lasergames got shafted but if the two words are applied their denial of operating permission was justified if i had the text of the law i d post it but i m afraid i don t remember it all well enough to even try that little bit with the two words stuck well though john dormer jad expert cc purdue edu
sci.crypt	report on privacy protecting off line cash available i recently published a new privacy protecting off line electronic cash system as a technical report at cwi being a phd student at david chaum s cryptography group our group has a long history in research in the field of privacy protecting cash systems the report is called cs r ps z contains pages and can be retrieved from ftp cwi nl from the directory pub cwireports aa the postscript file is suitable for dpi laserprinters abstract from coverpage we present a new off line electronic cash system based on a problem called the representation problem of which little use has been made in literature thus far our system is the first to be based entirely on discrete logarithms using the representation problem as a basic concept some techniques are introduced that enable us to construct protocols for withdrawal and payment that do not use the cut and choose methodology of earlier systems as a consequence our cash system is much more efficient in both computation and communication complexity than any such system proposed previously another important aspect of our system concerns its provability contrary to previously proposed systems its correctness can be mathematically proven to a very great extent specifically if we make one plausible assumption concerning a single hash function the ability to break the system seems to imply that one can break the diffie hellman problem our system offers a number of extensions that are hard to achieve in previously known systems in our opinion the most interesting of these is that the entire cash system including all the extensions can be incorporated in a setting based on wallets with observers which has the important advantage that double spending can be prevented in the first place rather than detecting the identity of a double spender after the fact in particular it can be incorporated even under the most stringent requirements conceivable about the privacy of the user which seems to be impossible to do with previously proposed systems another benefit of our system is that framing attempts by a bank have negligible probability of success independent of computing power by a simple mechanism from within the system which is something that previous solutions lack entirely furthermore the basic cash system can be extended to checks multi show cash and divisibility while retaining its computational efficiency cryptographers are challenged to try to break this system i made a particular effort to keep the report as self contained as possible nevertheless if you have any questions please e mail to me and i will try to reply as good as i can any comments are also welcome stefan brands cwi kruislaan sj amsterdam the netherlands tel e mail brands cwi nl
sci.crypt	re the source of that announcement in marc apr oliver mit edu marc mit edu marc horowitz n nzu writes i received mail from mitch kapor saying that he did not ask to be on the list and does not know why he was added i m sure the same applies to others on the list so i guess my initial theory was right that the clipper list was just someone s idea of a bad joke i guess i should be happy it wasn t a conspiracy i have also been in contact with mitch about this i believe him when he says he didn t ask to be on the clipper list he also forwarded the traffic he had recieved through that list to me which will be placed at some ftp site however the first alias on the clipper list was csspab which was another mailing list it basically contained the addresses for staffers and board members of the nist security board several of these people had their accounts within the dockmaster domain these are the people we might wish to foia harry harry shapiro habs panix com list administrator of the extropy institute mailing list private communication for the extropian community since
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more uni acs bu edu shaen bernhardt writes i wish i could agree with you ask yourself this why would any private sector entity wish to buy a crypto system that was known to be at least partially compromised a to use for sensitive but not strategically important traffic b if the system was cheap for example i don t own a cordless phone with clipper i would if the local men in blue really want to listen to me talk to my friends or order pizza i m no worse off than i am now and i don t have to worry about local kids or nosy neighbors that is to say clipper raises the bar on insecure channels it doesn t make them secure by any means but a wall even if the fbi can get a master key by court order is still better than a keep off the grass sign the answer seems obvious to me they wouldn t there is other hardware out there not compromised des as an example triple des as a better one so where can i buy a des encrypted cellular phone how much does it cost personally cylink stuff is out of my budget for personal use how can you reconcile the administrations self proclaimed purpose of providing law enforcement with access to encrypted data without making the clipper system the only crypto available in the u s the second and fourth amendments do come to mind amanda walker intercon systems corporation
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption rlward afterlife ncsc mil robert ward writes and since the us constitutions guarantees the right to every american to bear arms why is not every american entitled as a matter of have you read the applicable part of the constitution and interpreted it in context yes btw the appropriate amendments were posted here some time ago if not please do so before posting this misinterpretation again it refers to the right of the people to organize a militia not for individual to carry handguns grenades and assault rifles it s ok it s ok just a month ago i expressed my belief that the right to have a means to shoot your neighbor is not that much necessary to ensure a people s right to be free and got flamed by lots of american gun supporters so i thought that never mind the new cripple chip is a purely american problem so deal with the mess yourselves i just wanted to share with you a bit of my experience of living years under a totalitarian regime i m bulgarian because i thought that it might be useful to you oh well regards vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center university of hamburg tel fax fachbereich informatik agn pgp public key available on request vogt koelln strasse rm c e mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de d hamburg germany
sci.crypt	re why the clipper algorithm is secret in article apr iecc cambridge ma us johnl iecc cambridge ma us john r levine writes it just occurred to me why the algorithm is secret if it were published one could then build physically identical clone versions of the chip that would interoperate with official clipper chips but the cloner wouldn t provide the keys to the escrow houses hmmn not necessarily they could release the details of the algorithm without releasing the system key called sk by hellman that would make most people happy and with some sort of verification procedure before key exchange the official chips would only work with other official chips in other words secrecy of sk makes physically identical clone versions impossible secrecy of the algorithm shouldn t be necessary of course revealing the algorithm opens them up to attacks on sk since all units share this key compromising it may be a big deal personally i wouldn t feel too comfortable knowing that one secret bit number held in many places was all that guaranteed my security of course compromise of sk doesn t necessarily mean that the system is compromised but it s impossible to tell whether or not that s true with a secret algorithm incidentally what s to keep a secret algorithm from using the secret sk as the main key with uk being only marginally important then a court order for uk may not even be necessary to do a wiretap steve tate srt cs duke edu the reason why mathematics enjoys special esteem dept of computer science above all other sciences is that its laws are duke university absolutely certain and indisputable while those of all durham nc other sciences are to some extent debatable einstein
sci.crypt	help me please i am a phd student can i get the sci crypt group posted directly to me also i would like some feed back on the encryption schemes that my research in finite fields can be applied to any takers reply to gamv udcf gla ac uk thanks yours gavin
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow pmetzger snark shearson com perry e metzger writes i m a political dissident i m scared shitless of the feds listening in on my calls my opinions are the sort that would get me disappeared in a slightly less free society and who knows what sort of society we will be in in five or ten years i have friends who have had their phones tapped none of this is theoretical to me i understand believe it or not and there are any number of kinds of conversation and communication i engage in that i wouldn t even consider using this scheme for on the other hand i don t see clipper as providing a secure channel it just prevents casual eavesdropping this is part of why i am not worried about it per se trying to look at clipper as a serious security tool is simply ludicrous it s a voice scrambler nothing more there is still plenty of market for real crypto as for its better than the status quo well first of all you can get a cryptophone from companies like cylink today and they work well they cost an arm and a leg though clipper is obviously aimed at the mass market it certainly won t put cylink out of business in addition a number of groups are now working on building software to turn any pc into a privacy enhanced phone right now and they are all working in overdrive mode this is old news i can do this now there are no crypto restrictions yet you can use anything you want right now the point is to maintain that right there are restrictions example we re a networking software vendor with a large overseas share of our market we cannot currently ship pem or even simple des in our products without case by case approval from the department of state itar presents a material trade barrier to us firms trying to compete in international information systems markets sure you can use whatever freebie software you want to talk over bbs s in the usa i on the other hand want strong crypto pkcs for example to be the default for electronic mail worldwide i want priests to be able to hear confession over email i want lawyers to be able to talk to clients in confidence over email or doctors talk with patients i want to be able to order products from my favorite japanese mail order catalog over the net i want to be able to sign contracts transact business and so on electronically this is so far infeasible as a result of the current restrictions on crytographic systems especially beyond the borders of the usa clipper is irrelevant and if it distracts the authorities into feeling safe all the better its only danger is if it emboldens them into trying to put more restrictions into place on the theory that it is good enough for anyone who has nothing to hide that argument is of course utter bs just as much as no one needs an assault rifle amanda walker intercon systems corporation
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip rlward afterlife ncsc mil robert ward writes it refers to the right of the people to organize a militia not for individuals to carry handguns grenades and assault rifles false as federal courts have affirmed on many occasions this is getting out of sci crypt territory though amanda walker intercon systems corporation
sci.crypt	re fifth amendment and passwords i am postive someone will correct me if i am wrong but doesn t the fifth also cover not being forced to do actions that are self incriminating from mike godwin mnemonic eff org posted with permission carl sadly it does not suspects can be compelled to give handwriting and voice exemplars and to take blood and dna tests i am sure that mike is correct on this point i am also pretty sure that administering truth serum would be ruled a violation of your right not to incriminate yourself but what is the salient difference both drawing blood and injecting truth serum incapacitate you for a while but do no permanent damage is it simply that we have come to view one as acceptable while the other is viewed as a fundamental violation of one s rights if this is the case how do we expand the protections of the th amendment to incorporate new technologies without the results being a hodgepodge of different judges personal opinions rob stampfli rob colnet cmhnet org the neat thing about standards ham radio kd wk n jyv oh there are so many to choose from
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article qpg finn dns nmsu edu amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor writes yes those evil guys in the fbi can probably with some effort abuse the system i got news for you if the evil guys in the fbi decide they want to persecute you they re gonna and you re gonna hate it fact is the fbi doesn t want to listen to your phone calls and if they do and if you re using triple des they ll just get a parabolic microphone and point it at your head just because they can do it anyway somehow does not mean it is smart to make the job easier for them on the first day after christmas my truelove served to me leftover turkey on the second day after christmas my truelove served to me turkey casserole that she made from leftover turkey days deleted flaming turkey wings pizza hut commercial and m tlu a gic bait ken arromdee arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu
sci.crypt	suggestions for escrow agencies was re more technical details below is my response to dr denning s letter to steven bellovin comments are invited paul in alt privacy clipper steve bellovin posted your message to him which included a brief passage concerning selection of agencies as escrow agencies i am glad to see that the proposal as written states that the escrow agencies won t be law enforcement agencies i would argue however that one of the escrow agencies shouldn t be federal at all as a private citizen i would feel much more secure in my person and papers knowing that an organization committed to individual civil liberties the aclu and the nra come to mind was safeguarding half of my key both the aclu and the nra are resistent to government pressure by the simple expedient fact that they are not supported funded or overtly controlled by the government of those federal and federally funded candidate agencies that you mentioned i have the following comments sri rand mitre and national labs i agree that they have great experience safeguarding sensitive information i am not convinced that they would adequately safeguard this information since in any case requiring disclosure there s likely to be sigificant pressure for disclosure possibly wrongful disclosure gao perhaps i would like to see more concrete evidence of their fidelity and ability treasury surely you re joking perhaps you d ask batf to safeguard keys maybe the federal reserve would be a better choice ever since last fall s trial balloon was posted in sci crypt your name has been synonymous with those who place a great deal of trust in the ability of government agencies and agents to act within the law i agree with you in part those agencies and agents almost always act properly however there have been enough cases where sworn agents of the federal government have acted wrongly to make me feel that having two federal agencies as key repositories is unacceptable respectfully paul robichaux not speaking for nti bcss or nasa paul robichaux kd jzg help stop the big brother chip nti mission software development div ripem key on request
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption you re drifting off topic in any case if you check on any of the topics devoted to gun rights issues you will find ample evidence that the misinformation is your assertion that the term the people in the second amendment has mysteriously taken on a meaning diametrically opposite the meaning of the exact same term in the first and fourth amendments
sci.crypt	re more technical details in article apr ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes here are some corrections and additions to hellman s note courtesy of dorothy denning again this is reposted with permission two requests first note the roles of s and s it appears to me and others that anyone who knows those values can construct the unit key and the nature of the generation process for k and k is such that neither can be produced alone thus the scheme cannot be implemented such that one repository generates the first half key and another generates the second that is ominous second these postings are not revealed scripture nor are they carefully crafted spook postings don t attempt to draw out hidden meanings as opposed to say the official announcements of clipper leave denning out of this given hellman s record of opposition to des which goes back before some folks on this newsgroup knew how to read i don t think you can impugn his integrity oh yeah the folks who invented clipper aren t stupid if you think something doesn t make sense it s almost certainly because you don t understand their goals this is an addition posted with permission to some tech details of cliper they enligthen the use of s and s for keygeneration date mon apr edt from denning cs cosc georgetown edu dorothy denning subject re clipper chip i just had another conversation with nsa to clarify some of the features of clipper please feel free to distribute this and my other messages on clipper the name of the encryption algorithm is skipjack martin hellman had written and the serial number of the unit added to produce a three part message which will then be encrypted under the system key sk producing e e m k e k uk serial number sk to which i responded my understanding is that e m k is not encrypted under sk called the family key and that the decrypt key corresponding to sk is held by law enforcement does anyone have first hand knowledge on this i was correct in that e m k is not encrypted under sk however skipjack being a single key system there is of course not a separate decrypt key for the family key sk the unit key also called the chip key is generated from the serial number n as follows let n n and n be bit blocks derived from n and let s and s be two bit seeds used as keys compute the bit block r e d e n s s s note that this is like using the des in triple encryption mode with two keys similarly compute blocks r and r starting with n and n i m unlear about whether the keys s and s change the fact that they re called seeds suggests they might then r r and r are concatenated together giving bits the first bits form k and the next bits form k the remaining bits are discarded the seeds s and s do not change the whole process is performed on a laptop computer and s and s are supplied by two independent people so that no one person knows both the same s and s are used during an entire programming session to generate keys for a stream of serial numbers everything is discarded at the end the computer could be thrown out if desired the serial number is bits and the values n n and n are formed by padding the serial number with fixed bit blocks separate padding for each value the resulting keys k and k are output onto separate floppy disks paired up with their serial number each pair is stored in a separate file the floppy disks are taken away by two separate people on behalf of the two escrow agencies dorothy denning denning cs georgetown edu i am sure more technical detail will be known when time goes by please remark that in posting this i do not automatically agree with it s contents and implications so don t swamp my mailbox i just think this is an valuable addition to the less than technical discussion that is rising here and no i don t mind if you call s and s backdoor as i could imagine the key generation process working without these seeds and the dependency of k k from the serial number friendly greetings germano caronni instruments register only through things they re designed to register space still contains infinite unknowns pgp key id germano caronni caronni nessie cs id ethz ch fd ccf f da ea c dd f
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more amanda walker amanda intercon com wrote uni acs bu edu shaen bernhardt writes deletions how can you reconcile the administrations self proclaimed purpose of providing law enforcement with access to encrypted data without making the clipper system the only crypto available in the u s the second and fourth amendments do come to mind i think i heard someplace misc legal comp org eff talk that the courts have pretty much eliminated the fourth amendment already allen well sf ca us words got me the wound ethridge bnr ca and will get me well my opinions are my own if you believe it jim morrison
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow in article strnlghtc pucl kp netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes in article apr yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes let me ask you this would you trust richard nixon with your crypto keys i wouldn t i take it you mean president nixon not private citizen nixon sure nothing i m doing would be of the slightest interest to president nixon are you sure you aren t being watched let me remind you that watergate was only the tip of the iceberg nixon extensively used the nsa to watch people because he didn t like them according to decrypting the puzzle palace presumably the nsa is restricted from conducting american surveillance by both the foreign intelligence surveillance act of fisa and a series of presidential directives beginning with one issued by president ford following richard nixon s bold misuse of the nsa in which he explicitly directed the nsa to conduct widespread domestic surveillance of political dissidents and drug users of course just because there are laws saying the gov t is not supposed to conduct illegal surveillance doesn t mean those laws can t be broken when they are in the way doug holland
sci.crypt	re what is going on in article gthomas sfu ca gthomas fraser sfu ca guy thomas writes zrepachol cc curtin edu au paul repacholi writes in article apr cc curtin edu au zrepachol cc curtin edu au paul repacholi writes if you can t be bothered reading get the video manufacturing consent in reply to mail queries i don t know if a video is available yet i asked about a month ao and was told rsn yes it is from the national film board of canada ah not in the usa thats a relief thought reality must be slipping for a second st noam was on the radio tonight he has just published a new book years published by south end i guess could some bostonian confirm please i would love to hear what he thinks of the clipper scam paul ps the first posting i saw i thought was a joke in very bad taste my appologies to the person who broke the news
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow in article strnlghtc pucl kp netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes in article apr yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes let me ask you this would you trust richard nixon with your crypto keys i wouldn t i take it you mean president nixon not private citizen nixon sure nothing i m doing would be of the slightest interest to president nixon david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted ergo if your life is sufficiently boring you have no need for privacy this is not meant to be personal just the logical conclusion of your statement tim cuffel finger for pgp the cia has admitted that the assassination of saddam hussien was one of their goals they failed of course seems as though that motorcade through downtown dallas trick only works once
sci.crypt	re fifth amendment and passwords in article apr colnet cmhnet org res colnet cmhnet org rob stampfli writes sadly it does not suspects can be compelled to give handwriting and voice exemplars and to take blood and dna tests i am sure that mike is correct on this point i am also pretty sure that administering truth serum would be ruled a violation of your right not to incriminate yourself but what is the salient difference you can find the salient difference in any number of th amendment related supreme court opinions the court limits th amendment protections to what they call testimonial evidence as opposed to physical evidence the whole question would hinge on whether a crypto key would be considered testimonial evidence i suppose arguments could be made either way though obviously i would hope it would be considered testimonial phil
sci.crypt	re more technical details in article apr bernina ethz ch caronni nessie cs id ethz ch germano caronni actually dorothy denning writes the seeds s and s do not change let me see if i have this straight if a person knows s and s and the serial number of the unit it s easy to reconstruct uk of course if they know sk the family key they can easily get the serial number of any unit that has made a transmission so with s and s being used for a while batch of the unit keys the number of used s s pairs will probably be fairly low of course you have to believe that the nsa fbi name your favorite government agency will know sk so all it needs is the s s pairs and presto nasty details like court orders for wire taps are no longer necessary now i m not one of the people who distrusts the government at every turn but taking someone s word for it that the s s pairs are not kept around is pushing what i m willing to believe just a little bit too far steve tate srt cs duke edu the reason why mathematics enjoys special esteem dept of computer science above all other sciences is that its laws are duke university absolutely certain and indisputable while those of all durham nc other sciences are to some extent debatable einstein
sci.crypt	re key registering bodies if we do not trust the nsa to be a registrar of clipper chip key halves i would not trust mitre either mitre does lots of work for nsa at least in the trusted product evaluation program evaluation of commercial off the shelf software for its efficacy in safeguarding classified information and i assume in other less open programs there are at least two other ffrdcs federally funded research and development corporations that work for nsa aerospace corporation and the institute for defense analysis now if nsa were to be untrustworthy a position that i am neutral about for purposes of this posting it would be in a position to exert economic pressure upon mitre to release key halves on demand it could just say if you don t cooperate with us we ll place all our evaluation contracts with aerospace and ida i am not saying that people at nsa mitre aerospace or ida are dishonest folk but since they are people and people occasionally go bad the system works better if organizations that you are depending upon to be independent really are and of course i speak for myself not my employer lynn grant
sci.crypt	re wh proposal from police point of view in article strnlghtc puor netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes there has been extensive discussion in the eff forum for example about inadmissible taps being used to develop information that could then lead to admissible evidence this might put a stop to such things which must from time to time be simple fishing expeditions far more likely these things will continue to be done no matter what assurances we are given key escrow is likely going to prove to be a joke perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
sci.crypt	re more technical details hmm followup on my own posting well who cares first let me try to work out the facts that we get to know about the clipper chip from what hellman and denning were able to tell us the chip itself is not confined to digital telephony but performs general encryption in a symmetric manner the chip supports cfb ofb ecb and whatever the fourth mode of operation for des is the algorithm consists of rounds of whatever and takes bit keys input data seems to be bit yes so if two people want secure communication whatever that means when clipper is involved they have first to agree on one secret key or is it one key per direction they can exchange this key via dh schemes or however somehow the two feed their so won secret key into the clipper chip which is now ready to work the clipper chip carries an unique serial number bit s and key bits these key bits seem to have been gained by encrypting the serial number with seed bits the seed bits seem not to be stored in the chip at beginning of communication and perhaps at certain invtervals whithin before sending the fist real bit output of the first encryption the clipper chip put s out packets i guess which represent the serial number and the session key this might look like x e k chipkeyk k serial number where x is a transformation of these packets involving a family key this family sp key is equal for all chips x might be a simple xor after that the digital phone call can be done as usual every packet being encrypted and decrypted by clipper denning describes how k and k shall be generated using a seed of bit s now leaving alone politics which does not concern me as much as you not being an american citicien tm there are some weak points in this scheme which might be exploited by several parties as far as i know about the generation of k k s and s look like the obvious backdoor they could be used to generate the chip keys by knowing the serial number and also the family key of the chip i really can t imagine why these seeds would be needed otherwise as true random sources for the generation of the k k can be bought for not to much money then the escrows each of them will get bit of a bit key security could as little as existant be maximized by giving them bits each which have to be xored together to give the k k now let s simply assume the escrows are trustworthy and can t be fooled by criminals or law enforchemnt agencies and there will be no quarrel between escrows and l e a which would hinder the l e a in doing their duties and so on and so on once the keys are surrendered the corresponding chip is compromised forever not very clever imho how about sending in the encrypted session keys for each phone call that the police or whoever want s to listen to escrows could then simply decode this session key and send it back to police and would naturally not do this after the warrant has expired this would be a better technical solution but i guess politics will not work that way apparently as miss dennings stated the only one performing actually decodes of intercepted messages shall be the fbi great so local guys can not inter cept understand your traffic anymore does this mean that the fbi monopolizes the right to do legal wiretaps how is law over there i have no idea who is allowed to tap and who not this certainly means that watched communi cations will be routed automatically from the service providing company to the fbi if the communicaiton is a watched one and this means as far as i understand it that the family key has to be known by each switching company and those providing cellular phone servies etcetc so the family key will not be very secret and thus serial numbers of calls will be readable by anybody who cares i like traffic analysis what do you guess what happens if you use the chip in ecb mode and the first few packets of the chip are somehow lost or garbled so the session key would not be actually broadcasted over the line hmmm shouldn t be so difficult to do that and now a last point for the other side after all i have read and heard about clipper not the programming language for dbase is it it seems to have many advantages which shold not be overseen now an afterthought to your rights please note that i have no idea what i am talking about from grady netcom com ef amendment congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition the government for a redress of grievances if this text is actually in your bill of rights who can overrule this but freedom of speech is not secrecy of speech maybe you need to extend your amendment to cover information and communication too i am not very sure in what position your government actually is legally when it tries to ban cryptography and arms amendment say you may have them but not under what conditions hmm tricky situation actually it will make not much sense to discuss that topic in sci crypt discussion of technical details and vulnerabilites of the system are highly suggested and appreciated friendly greetings germano caronni disclaimer everything in here is derived from things i heard and read from other persons so everything could be wrong all opinions and thoughts in here are mine and subject to change without further notification no warranty neither implicit not explicit etc etc etc ad nauseam p s please don t ask me about political opinions as i might not bother to re ply for further information read the last line of p metzgers signature instruments register only through things they re designed to register space still contains infinite unknowns pgp key id germano caronni caronni nessie cs id ethz ch fd ccf f da ea c dd f
sci.crypt	re white house public encryption management fact sheet in article qnav r l transfer stratus com cme ellisun sw stratus com carl ellison writes in article c lgaz dove nist gov clipper csrc ncsl nist gov clipper chip announcement writes further the attorney general shall utilize funds from the department of justice asset forfeiture super surplus fund to effect this purchase talk about adding insult to injury i for one believe that the use of civil forfeiture should be abolished by a decent administration not continued instead it looks like that ill gotten gain will be used to help pay for wiretap equipment i wholeheartedly agree knowing that we have let our law enforcement agencies seize our property against the fifth amendment of our constitution tells me that we are absolving ourselves of our responsibility for self governance we have to take our government back from the self serving politicians who create laws and rules only to better their positions within the government we have allowed them to take too much power from the people of this nation that situation has to be changed allowing the law enforcement agencies to use the seized property to pay off drug informants who lie and continue to deal in drugs is tantamount to making a pact with the devil himself it s a vicious cycle the law enforcement agencies are motivated to seize property to fund their own activities and having no easy way for the citizen to regain the property intact once taken gives even more incentive for the agencies to take property it s also interesting to note that two months ago rush limbaugh said that clinton would have the plumbers out in force shortly clinton and his henchmen firmly believe in strong ubiquitous government control anytime a leader believes in that the leader will use every means possible to retain that control and take more we have to take our government back otherwise we will end up living in the equivalent of a high tech third world dictatorship we have to take responsibility for ourselves our personal welfare and our actions paul j olson vax systems manager resident amiga addict c voice decnet charon paul internet paul charon gsfc nasa gov xx disclaimer statements in my messages are wholely my own amiga ignorance is a renewable resource p j o rourke
sci.crypt	re clipper chip long follow up in article rand org jim rand org jim gillogly writes this document is in the anonymous ftp directory at nist looks to me like the other shoe has dropped jim gillogly trewesday astron s r thanks for posting this and making it available this post will be long i will comment on most of it and am reluctantly leaving all of the original in place to provide context please note that an alt group has been set up for the clipper stuff note this file will also be available via anonymous file transfer from csrc ncsl nist gov in directory pub nistnews and via the nist computer security bbs at the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april statement by the press secretary the president today announced a new initiative that will bring the federal government together with industry in a voluntary hum at t vlsi and mykotronx are industry wonder what happened to ibm this should be right up their street and a mandateed scheme is voluntary mr orwell would love this program to improve the security and privacy of telephone communications while meeting the legitimate needs of law enforcement telephone encryption and scrambleing are years behind digital ones like rsa idea or even des the above while literaly true is a clasic straw man claim in the context of non real time circuits such as e mail and the like the initiative will involve the creation of new products to accelerate the development and use of advanced and secure telecommunications networks and wireless communications links i would modestly propose that a mandated use of isdn would do more for commun ications than this lot for too long there has been little or no dialogue between our private sector and the law enforcement community to resolve the tension between economic vitality and the real challenges of protecting americans rather than use technology to accommodate the sometimes competing interests of economic growth privacy and law enforcement previous policies have pitted government against industry and the rights of privacy against law enforcement sophisticated encryption technology has been used for years to protect electronic funds transfer it is now being used to protect electronic mail and computer files while encryption normmaly des technology can help americans protect business secrets and the unauthorized release of personal information it also can be used by terrorists drug dealers and other criminals note the use of the word business in the above the whole tenor of this release seems to be establishing a ground rule that only business use is legitimate for debate if you want the nothings you drop in your wife s ear to remain secret and private that is not even on the agenda for debate note that there is no role for you to contain private info in this the only reference is to information already in the hands of others the unauthorized release bit is also drawing a long bow most of these cases are by people who have legitimate access abusing it and revealing or often selling the info these people are of course in this proposal the people who will have the keys the criminals also use lawers courts the cia white house officials and pens to go about their business when will they be outlawed as well yeah several of them would be a better idea than clipper them again the protections of law and the courts have been seriously erroded over the last decade ofr so a state of the art microcircuit called the clipper chip has been developed by government engineers the chip represents a nsa new approach to encryption technology yeah this bit is very true it can be used in new relatively inexpensive encryption devices that can be attached to an ordinary telephone it scrambles telephone communications using an encryption algorithm that is more powerful than many in commercial use today note the repeated mixing of telephone scrabeling and encryption a demo of the above claim on an ordanary pots would be a good nights entertainment i suspect note also the many not all as the general tone implies this new technology will help companies protect proprietary information protect the privacy of personal phone conversations and prevent unauthorized release of data transmitted electronically at the same time this technology preserves the ability of federal state and local law enforcement agencies to intercept lawfully the phone conversations of criminals the case record seems to indicate that what is needed is a brutal tightening of the current abuses i have not heard yet of a case that was impeaded by the use of secure encryption by the men in black the other side abuse by law enforcers is well documented even by govt agencies and the phone vs other coms is blurred yet again a key escrow system will be established to ensure that the clipper chip is used to protect the privacy of law abiding americans a key escrow system will be established to ensure that the clipper chip is used to protect the privacy of law abiding americans lets run that line twice not very carefully what it says the stated purpose of the key eschrow is to make the use of clipper compulsory note the word ensure as to protect or law abiding i will leave to you so to the person who asked if it included the outlawing of other encryptions the answer in this press release is yes each device containing the chip will have two unique keys numbers that will be needed by authorized government agencies to decode messages encoded by the device when the device is manufactured the two keys will be deposited separately in two key escrow data bases that will be established by the attorney general access to these keys will be limited to government officials with legal authorization to conduct a wiretap just as they only can wiretap now with a warrent the clipper chip technology provides law enforcement with no new authorities to access the content of the private conversations of americans just makes sure that the illegal ones are preserved to demonstrate the effectiveness of this new technology the attorney general will soon purchase several thousand of the new devices in addition respected experts from outside the government will be offered access to the confidential details of the algorithm to assess its capabilities and publicly report their findings where do you find many experts any ex kgb people looking for a contract and as a later posting asks what of the stu iiis they already have it will be very interesting to see if the military and us embasies start to use it after all it is secure isn t it the govt will answer that point by its own actions the chip is an important step in addressing the problem of encryption s dual edge sword encryption helps to protect the privacy of individuals and industry but it also can shield criminals and terrorists we need the clipper chip and other approaches that can both provide law abiding citizens with access to the encryption they need and prevent criminals from using it to hide their illegal activities in order to assess technology trends and explore new approaches like the key escrow system the president has directed government agencies to develop a comprehensive policy on encryption that accommodates the privacy of our citizens including the need to employ voice or data encryption for business purposes again personal use seems to be a unaskable question the ability of authorized officials to access telephone calls and data under proper court or other legal order when necessary to protect our citizens ah so warrents are not always needed it seems the effective and timely use of the most modern technology to build the national information infrastructure needed to promote economic growth and the competitiveness of american industry in the global marketplace and the need of u s companies to manufacture and export high technology products the itars seem to slightly impeed this the president has directed early and frequent consultations with affected industries the congress and groups that advocate the privacy rights of individuals as policy options are developed the administration is committed to working with the private sector to spur the development of a national information infrastructure which will use new telecommunications and computer technologies to give americans unprecedented access to information this infrastructure of high speed networks information superhighways will transmit video images hdtv programming and huge data files as easily as today s telephone system transmits voice note that all this wonderfull stuff will be in secret only the proper people will be able to express an opinion hence only the desired result will emerge since encryption technology will play an increasingly important role in that infrastructure the federal government must act quickly to develop consistent comprehensive policies regarding its use the administration is committed to policies that protect all americans right to privacy while also protecting them from those who break the law encryption and codes have been around for millenia they are generaly in equilibrium with the technology of the time the systematic study of cyphers has resulted in a swing in favor of the encrypter at the moment i have no doubt that the factoring problem will fall in time probably fofr practical purposes by the middle of the next century further information is provided in an accompanying fact sheet the provisions of the president s directive to acquire the new encryption technology are also available for additional details call mat heyman national institute of standards and technology questions and answers about the clinton administration s telecommunications initiative q does this approach expand the authority of government agencies to listen in on phone conversations a no clipper chip technology provides law enforcement with no new authorities to access the content of the private conversations of americans q suppose a law enforcement agency is conducting a wiretap on a drug smuggling ring and intercepts a conversation encrypted using the device what would they have to do to decipher the message a they would have to obtain legal authorization normally a court order to do the wiretap in the first place they would then present documentation of this authorization to the two entities responsible for safeguarding the keys and obtain the keys for the device being used by the drug smugglers the key is split into two parts which are stored separately in order to ensure the security of the key escrow system q who will run the key escrow data banks a the two key escrow data banks will be run by two independent entities at this point the department of justice and the administration have yet to determine which agencies will oversee the key escrow data banks it is a little hard to critisise a non proposal q how strong is the security in the device how can i be sure how strong the security is a this system is more secure than many other voice encryption systems readily available today note we drop back to phone mode again if this is a true answer it can be rephrased as it sucks big time anyone who can drive the crypt work bench will use it for light amusement before breakfast while the algorithm will remain classified to protect the security of the key escrow system this link between the security of the key eschrow and the actual algorithm is a real winner given that i have secret bit numbers could someone please explain how the details of an encryption algorithm will reveal them we are willing to invite an independent panel of cryptography experts to evaluate the algorithm to assure all potential users that there are no unrecognized vulnerabilities just make sure you read the cvs real carfully ok q whose decision was it to propose this product a the national security council the justice department the commerce department and other key agencies were involved in this decision this approach has been endorsed by the president the vice president and appropriate cabinet officials quick with out looking back what name is missing from that list q who was consulted the congress industry a we have on going discussions with congress and industry on encryption issues and expect those discussions to intensify as we carry out our review of encryption policy we have briefed members of congress and industry leaders on the decisions related to this initiative the people who agree with us and who think there is a buck in it for them q will the government provide the hardware to manufacturers a the government designed and developed the key access encryption microcircuits but it is not providing the microcircuits to product manufacturers product manufacturers can acquire the microcircuits from the chip manufacturer that produces them the reverse engineering provisions of the mask work act could be relevent here q who provides the clipper chip a mykotronx programs it at their facility in torrance california and will sell the chip to encryption device manufacturers the programming function could be licensed to other vendors in the future q how do i buy one of these encryption devices a we expect several manufacturers to consider incorporating the clipper chip into their devices you don t not unless you are one of the right people q if the administration were unable to find a technological solution like the one proposed would the administration be willing to use legal remedies to restrict access to more powerful encryption devices a this is a fundamental policy question which will be considered during the broad policy review the key escrow they missed the word secret here he needs a grammar lesson too mechanism will provide americans with an encryption product that is more secure more convenient and less expensive than others readily available today but it is just one piece of what must be the comprehensive approach to encryption technology which the administration is developing i would say less secure less conveniant more expensive pgp is free less available and more prone to being comprimised proofs to the contarary will be welcome note proof the administration is not saying since encryption threatens the public safety and effective law enforcement we will prohibit it outright as some countries have effectively done nor is the u s saying that every american as a matter of right is entitled to an unbreakable commercial encryption product they don t seem to be saying anything that makes much sense and this proposal does prohibit it except in a very limited way and this is the one explicit reference to personal rights it is a denial and yes i don t think that the mexicans brazilians and canucks are included in clinton et als magnanamous gesture there is a false tension created in the assessment that this issue is an either or proposition rather both concerns can be and in fact are harmoniously balanced through a reasoned balanced approach such as is proposed with the clipper chip and similar encryption techniques the false tension is false the balance is between two repugnant points the right to privacy is hand waved to non existance by putting it behind the false assessment it is assumed that the removal of the right to take what ever steps you deem suitable to protect your privacy is non negotiable hence is defined in the govenment language to be non existant if you don t agree you must be a criminal as only criminals don t agree with out laws also note the non question if what is here was not possible q what does this decision indicate about how the clinton administration s policy toward encryption will differ from that of the bush administration a it indicates that we understand the importance of encryption technology in telecommunications and computing and are committed to working with industry and public interest groups to find innovative ways to protect americans privacy help businesses to compete and ensure that law enforcement agencies have the tools they need to fight crime and terrorism it indicates we know that bush dropped the ball in squashing that nasty insert suitable retoric and will stamp out this disorderly unruley outbreak of freedom and ultra national sentiment q will the devices be exportable will other devices that use the government hardware a voice encryption devices are subject to export control requirements case by case review for each export is required to ensure appropriate use of these devices the same is true for other encryption devices one of the attractions of this technology is the protection it can give to u s companies operating at home and abroad with this in mind we expect export licenses will be granted on a case by case basis for u s companies seeking to use these devices to secure their own communications abroad we plan to review the possibility of permitting wider exportability of these products this one is a real giggle in australia or france they will have to reveal the keys and the algorithm don t think it s at the top of my list of things i must have so the restrictions will protect me from saleks trying to sell me a bill of crock any for any others using it they must be nuts good luck folks paul
sci.crypt	re more technical details the system or family key would appear to be cryptographically useless since every chip must know it and be able to remove its effects from the bitstream i daresay that it will be widely known almost immediately after this system is deployed and since it s been pointed out that there is not a separate decrypt key the same key is used for both encryption and decryption there goes any benefit to the use of a system wide key in skipjack robert bickford a hacker is any person who derives joy from rab well sf ca us discovering ways to circumvent limitations rab i recognize that a class of criminals and juvenile delinquents has taken to calling themselves hackers but i consider them irrelevant to the true meaning of the word just as the mafia calls themselves businessmen but nobody pays that fact any attention rab
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more for example i don t own a cordless phone with clipper i would if the local men in blue really want to listen to me talk to my friends or order pizza i m no worse off than i am now and i don t have to worry about local kids or nosy neighbors i do tend to agree sigh so where can i buy a des encrypted cellular phone how much does it cost of course if we didn t have government monopolies on cellular phone service there probably would be some available how can you reconcile the administrations self proclaimed purpose of providing law enforcement with access to encrypted data without making the clipper system the only crypto available in the u s the second and fourth amendments do come to mind the second amendment is especially apt given the itar definitions of crypto equipment as munitions and the gun control people s increasing ability to define things as assault weapons and make them illegal triple des is obviously used for assault phones while cripple will be legal and triple cripple may fall into the gray area of illegally upgrading to an assault phone pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at t bell labs m holmdel nj no i m from new jersey i only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption in article apr afterlife ncsc mil rlward afterlife ncsc mil robert ward writes in article bontchev fbihh bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de writes and since the us constitutions guarantees the right to every american to bear arms why is not every american entitled as a matter of have you read the applicable part of the constitution and interpreted it in context if not please do so before posting this misinterpretation again it refers to the right of the people to organize a militia not for individuals to carry handguns grenades and assault rifles read the constitution yourself the second amendment says the right to bear arms shall not be infringed so a well regulated militia may be more easily formed i have an interpretation of the second that shows there are no qualifications to the right to keep and bear arms if you want i can e mail it to you by the way gun talk belongs in talk politics guns doug holland
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in strnlghtc nrhw qb netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes in article bu edu uni acs bu edu shaen bernhardt writes i wish i could agree with you ask yourself this why would any private sector entity wish to buy a crypto system that was known to be at least partially compromised key escrows in this instance why would any private sector entity wish to buy a crypto system that had not been properly evaluated i e algorythm not publically released the answer seems obvious to me they wouldn t there is other hardware out there not compromised des as an example triple des as a better one what follows is my opinion it is not asserted to be the truth so no flames please it comes out of a background of years as a senior corporate staff executive in two fortune companies no wonder american businesses are going down the tubes i d be happy to use a crypto system supplied by the nsa for business if they told me it was more secure than des and in particular resistant to attempts by japanese french and other competitive companies and governments to break it s nist not nsa nsa is not supposed to have anything to do with this they didn t say that they said is was better than some commercial grade encryptions i for one wouldn t trust them if they did unless they release the algorithm for investigation i d be happy to do so even with escrowed keys provided i was happy about the bona fides of the escrow agencies the federal reserve would certainly satisfy me as would something set up by one of the big accounting firms maybe the aclu and eff it would have to be a non profit so the big would be out i d trust the nsa or the president if they stated there were no trap doors i d be even happier if a committee of independent experts examined the thing under seal of secrecy and reported back that it was secure i wouldn t trust the nsa i think i would trust the president on this but i m not certain he would be told i d trust something from the nsa long before i d trust something from some swiss or anybody japanese that s your problem this may seem surprising to some here but i suggest most corporations would feel the same way most many some pick one corporations have an attitude that the nsa is part of our government and we support our government as one very famous ceo put it to me one day i want to emphasize the i am not speaking for beckman instruments at this point however we are an international company and i would like to think that our customers come first ahead of our government s whims arthur l rubin a rubin dsg dse beckman com work beckman instruments brea mcimail com compuserve com arthur pnet cts com personal my opinions are my own and do not represent those of my employer
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article rwing uucp pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes fishing expeditions without the target s knowlege don t give up the right to be safe from that that should be non negotiable and clinton and co know it which is probably why they quietly developed this thing figuring if they get it this far they can ram it on through it always amazes me how quick people are to blame whatever administration is current for things they couldn t possibly have initiated this chip had to take years to develop yet already we re claiming that the clinton administration sneaked it in on us bullshit the bush administration and the career gestapo were responsible for this horror and the careerists presented it to the new presidency as a fait accompli that doesn t excuse clinton and gore from criticism for being so stupid as to go for it but let s lay the body at the proper door to start with geoff kuenning geoff maui cs ucla edu geoff itcorp com
sci.crypt	screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only since the wiretap chip is being distributed internationally allowing the u s government to spy on foreign governments companies and people as as well as to wiretap domestic citizens this is a world wide issue please put distribution world on the distrubution line thank you ygoland wright seas ucla edu the jester writes however assuming that i can still encrypt things as i please who cares about the clipper chip you don t care that people are being lied to fooled into believing the chip gives privacy when it fact it allows wiretaps you don t give a shit about anybody s privacy except your own and not even your own are you so smart that you know when you re talking to somebody who has a wiretap chip on their phone instead of a privacy chip with private keys attitude that everyone else should have instead of worrying about a clipper chip simply connect your handset to your computer and feed the voice single through process encrypt and transmit over the phone the guy on the other hand then does the same in reverse simply everyone should have this attitude the only people who can have this attitude are the most hard core computer hackers who never make phone calls away from their computer who apparently never call anybody except another computer hacker or perhaps another spook u s classified agents refuse to use their own system only oblivious civilian dupes get that dubious privilege only spooks and hard core hackers need privacy huh we do need an alternative to nsa bugged telephones but we re talking inexpensive telephones here including hand sized cellulars that need strong crypto real privacy make shift computer hacker rigs that require living by your computer to talk privately over the phone are just a dumb stunt that doesn t do anything for anybody s privacy in the real world what we need is a true privacy chip for example a real time voice encryption rsa put it into a silicon compiler and spit out asic put this chip on the market as a de facto standard for international business diplomats and private communications if the u s bans it we make it somewhere else and import it the japanese german dutch taiwanese korean etc electronics companies don t want the nsa spying on them u s workers lose more jobs to government fascist stupidity jhart agora rain com
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more geoff ficus cs ucla edu geoffrey kuenning writes bullshit the bush administration and the career gestapo were responsible for this horror and the careerists presented it to the new presidency as a fait accompli that doesn t excuse clinton and gore from criticism for being so stupid as to go for it but let s lay the body at the proper door to start with the final stages of denial i can hardly imagine what the result would have been if the clinton administration had actually supported this plan instead of merely acquiescing with repugnance as they ve so obviously doing i don t believe the chip originated with the clinton administration either but the clinton administration has embraced it and brought it to fruition both of the major parties have what they consider excellent reasons for limiting your freedoms and violating your privacy and even seem to feel that they re doing you a favor if this is really surprising to anyone it means they ve been willfully ignoring quite a bit of previous evidence there s only one political party not calling anarchists a party that considers your freedom and privacy goals worthy in and of themselves if you re voting for the big two you re supporting a reduction of those rights given their goals and their histories regardless of whether you personally support that reduction to paint clinton and gore as unwitting tools is really stretching things when you have to kill a man it costs nothing to be polite churchill
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more geoff ficus cs ucla edu geoffrey kuenning writes it always amazes me how quick people are to blame whatever administration is current for things they couldn t possibly have initiated this chip had to take years to develop yet already we re claiming that the clinton administration sneaked it in on us no kidding the most recent post i saw in alt privacy clipper and i hope anyone interested in this topic ends up there states that clipper has been in development for over four years i am however more than a little po d that clinton put his name on this monstrosity or even allowed it to get out the door for that matter he s already heard from me and i hope you ll all take the time to voice your extreme displeasure as well tim russell omaha ne trussell unomaha edu
sci.crypt	re fifth amendment and passwords in article apr qualcomm com karn unix ka q ampr org phil karn writes in article apr colnet cmhnet org res colnet cmhnet org rob stampfli writes sadly it does not suspects can be compelled to give handwriting and voice exemplars and to take blood and dna tests i am sure that mike is correct on this point i am also pretty sure that administering truth serum would be ruled a violation of your right not to incriminate yourself but what is the salient difference you can find the salient difference in any number of th amendment related supreme court opinions the court limits th amendment protections to what they call testimonial evidence as opposed to physical evidence i have a question that is a slight variation on the previously mentioned examples that perhaps people could give me some pointers on it has been a couple of years since my con law class in college so i hope i am not missing something obvious here basic scenario i set up a bbs that uses public key encryption and encryption of files on disk the general setup is designed so that when users connect they send a private key encrypted using the system public key and the user s public private keypair is used to wrap the one time session keys used for encrypting the files on disk the result of this is that even if i reveal the system private key it is impossible for anyone to gain access to the files stored on the machine what is possible is for someone to use the revealed system private key to entice users into revealing thier personal private keys during the authentication sequence questions does the fact that the system private key does not provide any information useful for a search give me any protection as far as being coerced to reveal the key i doubt it myself it seems providing the system private key does not mean that i am assisting in entrapment the users would send thier key anyway and are not being enticed into doing something they would not otherwise do but is there any other hook that can be used would the user private key enticement require wiretap approval any answers or general musings on the subject would be appreciated jim jim mccoy ut unix sysadmin tiger team mccoy ccwf cc utexas edu include disclaimer h j mccoy nwu edu pgp key available via finger or upon request
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption gee i guess they should also have such a repository for house keys car keys safety deposit keys rdl
sci.crypt	re what the clipper nay sayers sound like to me in article qsvfcinnq v dns nmsu edu amolitor moink nmsu edu andrew molitor writes the following is available in some ftp archive somewhere i insert my comments liberally throughout this demonic memo of big brotherdom white house announcement on screw thread standards this is to announce that the american national standards institute or whatever it is has been given the authority to define standard dimensions for screw threads look this is clearly the first step toward outlawing our own screw thread specifications if this madness isn t fought tooth and nail every step of the way it ll be a crime to use screw threads other than those our fearless leaders so graciously define for us sarcastic text deleted no value judgement implied screw you bill clinton you and your totalitarianist thugs amolitor nmsu edu finger for pgst personal screw thread pitch or screw threads see the screw thread servers must be freed at first i was going to complain that your analogy was completely irrelevant but then i remembered something remember that move to get the u s to the metric system all those years ago as far as i know we were supposed to be there by now the government sold it as better for the people easier to be in tune with the rest of the world they had decided it was for our own good then when the plan was released it soon became apparant that the government were a bunch o thickies think about it change all the railroad track widths signs screws abolish the old regime at the cost of millions of dollars your point is well taken you think there is nothing to worry about you could care less who designs your cryptography any more than who designs your screws or the system of measurement you use sit back that s right just relax we ll take care of all your needs mr molitor uni acs bu edu public keys by finger and or request public key archives pgp public keys pgp iastate edu sovereignty is the sign of a brutal past fight clinton s wiretap chip df f b de b c c crypto is not a crime ask me how
sci.crypt	some questions regarding big brother clipper in previous postings by hellman bellovin etal it was reported the big brother clipper chip will encrypt plaintext in bit blocks as is done with des the users key k which can be derived from rsa diffy hellman etc is used to encrypt plaintext m and is then used to form a three part message this three part message consists of e m k k encrypted with some other key and the chip serial number this three part message is then encrypted by still another key my question is what is a message for example say we are dealing with an encrypted digitized voice application the speech waveform is sampled and digitized and then some number of samples are grouped into a bit block this block is then encrypted and transmitted over a non secure communications link where is the three part message is something appended to each bit block is a header sent at the beginning of the session if the header is sent at the beginning of the session how do they insure the equipment manufacturer using the chip does just that can just anyone manufacture products using the chip is a facility clearance required to manufacture any ideas
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow in article strnlghtc pucl kp netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes in article apr yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes let me ask you this would you trust richard nixon with your crypto keys i wouldn t i take it you mean president nixon not private citizen nixon sure nothing i m doing would be of the slightest interest to president nixon i am sure you didn t miss the implication that we could have another richard nixon type president in the future perhaps not too distant future acutally with that in mind then i take it you also would not object to the gov coming up with a decision not proposal just like clinton cripple is a decision not a proposal sprung on us to start placing video cameras with sound in every room of your house which could be activated without your knowlege they would be well concealed so you wouldn t know the location to prevent you from covering the lens opening after all nothing you re doing would be of the slightest interest to a government official right so you surely should not object to such a proposal not the best anology but the principle is pretty close the ability to eavesdrop on your activity with little or no effort without your knowlege protected by entirely by government safeguards you can still draw your curtains so you can still have your privacy from everyone else except big brother after all we need this for protection from drug dealers and terrorists and other criminals like enemies of the state and you don t really have a right to unbreakable privacy anyway sort of as the press release of the clinton cripple decision puts it i find it curious they use the word unbreakable when the term really should be difficult to break without proper authorization which the government most certainly has at their disposal right they wouldn t want to be able to break it illegally would they nawww not for the people clinton can you while my mind is on it give us one good reason that the algorithm should be a secret algorithm unless this encryption scheme either is a joke or contains features like a master key or other back door for unauthorized eavesdropping if it was really even moderately secure and the government really meant to require the proper court order and the keys that are in the escrow accounts to be able to decipher the traffic what is the need to keep the algorithm secret seems i hear rather often that if an encryption scheme requires the algorithm to remain a secret to be effective it is not a worthwhile scheme is this just idle talk or is the administration bullshitting everyone with great skepticism and many doubts on our administrations intentions and wait we haven t been told the next gem the administration has in mind for e mail and datafile security the press release does say that this is part of a comprehensive thing on data security for us unprivileged citizens perhaps subjects would be the better term citizens somehow does not seem appropriate that implies a free people subjects better fits a population who serve at the pleasure of their rulers one thing for certain the government no longer regards the citizens as their bosses anymore but the other way around pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien
sci.crypt	re key registering bodies in article dockmaster ncsc mil grant dockmaster ncsc mil lynn r grant writes if we do not trust the nsa to be a registrar of clipper chip key halves i would not trust mitre either i wouldn t trust mitre for another reason remember the cuckoo s egg how great was their security eh nsa well with the list of known turncoats does it make you wonder how many more unknown still are there regards uri uri watson ibm com scifi angmar uri disclaimer
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow begin pgp signed message in article pmetzger apr snark shearson com pmetzger snark shearson com perry e metzger writes in article qnupd jpm news intercon com amanda intercon com amanda walker writes from amanda intercon com amanda walker jhesse netcom com john hesse writes oh great wonderful news nobody can listen in except the feds hey it s better than the status quo i am far less worried about the feds tapping my phone than high school scanner surfers who get their kicks out of eavesdropping on cellular and cordless phone calls i m a political dissident i m scared shitless of the feds listening in on my calls my opinions are the sort that would get me disappeared in a slightly less free society and who knows what sort of society we will be in in five or ten years i have friends who have had their phones tapped none of this is theoretical to me as for its better than the status quo well first of all you can get a cryptophone from companies like cylink today and they work well in addition a number of groups are now working on building software to turn any pc into a privacy enhanced phone right now and they are all working in overdrive mode and yes i d rather just see all crypto restrictions lifted but this is at least an incrememental improvement for certain applications there are no crypto restrictions yet you can use anything you want right now the point is to maintain that right the point you all seem to have missed was covered when the uk cellphone scrambling system was discussed incidentally my mp has responded to my questions on that issue and it appears that the uk and other approved countries will get the secure a encryption and dodgy countries will get a x existing mobile equipment will drop to clear mode when used with a x systems but newer equipment will use a a x clear depending on the capabilities of the base station the cops feds do not need to be able to get hold of your private key to listen in to cellular conversations encryption is not end to end but cellphone to base station it has to be this way so that cellular users and fixed installations can talk to each other for cellular to cellular calls the transmission is decrypted at the base station passed to another base station and re encrypted the cops feds can listen to the unscrambled call provided they get a warrant to tap into the cellular provider s equipment the only reason for wanting a crackable system is so they can listen without having to obtain a warrant but maybe the clipper system is secure and they really do need a warrant to get the key out of escrow before they can listen in using a scanner see above they don t have to go down this route anyway i have my doubts but even if true once they have the key they will never again need a warrant to tap into that particular phone whenever they want well judge it appears he wasn t a drug dealer after all so naturally we ll stop listening in you have every reason to be scared shitless take a look at the records of mccarthy hoover j edgar not the cleaner though they both excelled at sucking and nixon paul
sci.crypt	screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only i suspect that this clipper thing could backfire on the gov in a big hurry i expect that products using these chips will socket them rather than soldering them since once the keys are handed over by the escrow agencies the chip is so much garbage and will need to be replaced i expect that someone will come along with a pin compatible chip that uses secure encryption possibly even disguised so that it s not possible to tell it from the clipper chip until you try to use the backdoor keys if i were to manufacture such a chip as part of my marketing strategy i would try to subvert one or both escrow agencies either through bribes or industrial espionage and then publicize the fact doing my best not to be connected with such activities which would likely not be legal publicly discrediting the escrow agencies would go quite far towards creating a market for a secure alternative i also believe that someone will reverse engineer the clipper chip and knowlege of the algorithm will likely be fairly widespread any back doors or weaknesses would further discredit the scheme and help grow the market demand for a secure alternative i believe that the company that provides such an alternative will make few friends in the le community but lots of money i also believe that the government will do it s best to make such plug replacements illegal i expect that they will see the same success in limiting the availability of such alternatives as they have seen in limiting the availability of certain illicit drugs ie little to none regards ian ameline of course the ramblings above have nothing to do with my employer nor do i necessarily advocate doing any of the things described here i just believe that the events above are likely to take place
sci.crypt	re fifth amendment and passwords in article qv m i geraldo cc utexas edu mccoy ccwf cc utexas edu jim mccoy writes i set up a bbs that uses public key encryption and encryption of files on disk the general setup is designed so that when users connect they send a private key encrypted using the system public key and the user s public private keypair is used to wrap the one time session keys used for encrypting the files on disk the result of this is that even if i reveal the system private key it is impossible for anyone to gain access to the files stored on the machine what is possible is for someone to use the revealed system private key to entice users into revealing thier personal private keys during the authentication sequence any answers or general musings on the subject would be appreciated just a question as a provider of a public bbs service aren t you bound by law to gurantee intelligble access to the data of the users on the bbs if police comes with sufficent authorisation i guessed this would be a basic condition for such systems i did run a bbs some time ago but that was in switzerland friendly greetings germano caronni instruments register only through things they re designed to register space still contains infinite unknowns pgp key id germano caronni caronni nessie cs id ethz ch fd ccf f da ea c dd f
sci.crypt	re more technical details another objection occurred to me there was a comment about how supposedly there would only be one decode box operated by the fbi this is flat ridiculous and i don t believe it for a millisecond even if they in fact only build one or two or some other small number of these that won t stop others from building one make it work like two clipper chip phones one listening to each side of the recorded conversation i ll have to have another look at the specs posted so far but offhand i didn t see anything that would preclude this sort of thing robert bickford rab well sf ca us treasurer and newsletter editor lib party of marin county ca don t blame me i voted libertarian member ca state central committee
sci.crypt	cripple chip how about this the telco has your clipper key the telco has your intended partner s key if he is using one whenever you call the message gets decrypted and reencrypted wihtout y key exchange i know it s a stupid system but for the feds it d be great the point of this isn t to take over the crypto market btw clinton doen not want people to have any sort of crypto at all just like busch but he needs some support for the technology initiative garbage he s pushing industrial policy stuff and a computer hip designed by the gov t is just the thing who s going to thing about the literal billions of dollars it took for a government agency to design watkins earth eecs uic edu
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more johnson trwacs fp trw com steve johnson writes tim may whose sig block may get him busted in the new regime a remark i heard the other day is beginning to take on increasingly frightening significance the comment was made that in other parts of the world the democrats note the big d would be known as socialists and in other parts of the world european socialists would be known as fascist capitalist pigs get your head out of your labels and think carefully for once according to the eff announcement on this thing the nsa has been developing this turkey for four years the manufacturing contract was let months ago anyone out there who believes that the fact that clinton s name was on this white house announcement means that bush or any other republican is a staunch supporter of personal privacy is a fool if this topic disturbs you can the political finger pointing and talk about what you can do about it if you ve just got to point fingers remember that this scheme was started when a secret policeman was president
sci.crypt	re wh proposal from police point of view in article pmetzger apr snark shearson com pmetzger lehman com writes in article strnlghtc puor netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes there has been extensive discussion in the eff forum for example about inadmissible taps being used to develop information that could then lead to admissible evidence this might put a stop to such things which must from time to time be simple fishing expeditions far more likely these things will continue to be done no matter what assurances we are given key escrow is likely going to prove to be a joke i feel like winston churchill in but the privacy clipper will to the extent key escrow is legitimate stop most of the abuse of wiretaps by local cops company cops angry husbands wives etc it is going to be hard for the keystone cops the proctor gamble cops etc to bypass even a product as flawed as the clipjob now i admit i am hard pressed to find anything else good to say about it except that if it actually takes off someone will certainly come up with a real crypto chip pin compatable that we can buy unless of course big brother makes it illegal to have real crypto cause good honest law abiding citizens will be happy to let the government listen to their every word me did i say that i am not a crook president richard m nixon information farming at for addr phone finger a a the ohio state university jebright magnus acs ohio state edu jim ebright e mail jre osu edu
sci.crypt	re fifth amendment and passwords in article apr bernina ethz ch caronni nessie cs id ethz ch germano caronni writes just a question as a provider of a public bbs service aren t you bound by law to gurantee intelligble access to the data of the users on the bbs if police comes with sufficent authorisation i guessed this would be a basic condition for such systems i did run a bbs some time ago but that was in switzerland that sounds like an old dragnet episode joe and i went to the apartment of prime suspect nobody answered the door but his landlord gave us permission to search the apartment perhaps that worked in california in the s but as i understand the law landlords do not have authority to grant permission to search space rented by a third party provided the lease is not in default etc i m not even sure if they can provide the master key when shown a search warrant since the subject of the search is supposed to be notified at this point the question becomes did the user rent the disk space her encrypted file occupies if she did it should fall under the same body of case law that applies to apartments storage lockers etc as to whether any court would recognize this fact if she did not i e no compensation exchanged i don t know how it would be treated there doesn t seem to be a non cyberspace equivalent bear giles bear fsl noaa gov
sci.crypt	re why the clipper algorithm is secret in article c pstr lu panix com dfl panix com danny o bedlam writes the algorithm is classified because a military contract or similar government equivalent to military has been let for this proprietary design that the feds say that nsa developed is there a patent is that patent publicly available my betting is that that too is classified unless there has been a major change in the law there s no such beast as a classified patent patents exist to encourage communications and develop the state of the art the year lock is a nuisance but historically has been pretty trivial it s only in an industry which doubles performance every three years or months for some hardware that years is an eternity the same thing applies in civilian development you can t patent something and declare it a trade secret however you can and should mark all software including proprietary code unpublished copyright so that it ever does get exposed you still have some legal protection post berne this isn t required since everything is born copyrighted but it takes a while for people to learn the new rules bear giles bear fsl noaa gov
sci.crypt	clipper chip bush did it in article wcs apr rainier att com wcs anchor ho att com bill stewart writes this is the democrats version defend free speech reject republicans followed by speech control this must have been in the works for some time the bush administration must have been working on it for quite a while clinton simply took the credit or blame depending on how you look at it john gilbert johng ecs comm mot com
sci.crypt	the clipper chip a technical summary the following document summarizes the clipper chip how it is used how programming of the chip is coupled to key generation and the escrow process and how law enforcement decrypts communications since there has been some speculation on this news group about my own involvement in this project i d like to add that i was not in any way involved i found out about it when the fbi briefed me on thursday evening april since then i have spent considerable time talking with the nsa and fbi to learn more about this and i attended the nist briefing at the department of commerce on april the document below is the result of that effort dorothy denning the clipper chip a technical summary dorothy denning april introduction on april the president announced a new initiative that will bring together the federal government and industry in a voluntary program to provide secure communications while meeting the legitimate needs of law enforcement at the heart of the plan is a new tamper proof encryption chip called the clipper chip together with a split key approach to escrowing keys two escrow agencies are used and the key parts from both are needed to reconstruct a key chip structure the clipper chip contains a classified bit block encryption algorithm called skipjack the algorithm uses bit keys compared with for the des and has rounds of scrambling compared with for the des it supports all des modes of operation throughput is mbits a second each chip includes the following components the skipjack encryption algorithm f an bit family key that is common to all chips n a bit serial number u an bit secret key that unlocks all messages encrypted with the chip encrypting with the chip to see how the chip is used imagine that it is embedded in the at t telephone security device as it will be suppose i call someone and we both have such a device after pushing a button to start a secure conversation my security device will negotiate a session key k with the device at the other end in general any method of key exchange can be used the key k and message stream m i e digitized voice are then fed into the clipper chip to produce two values e m k the encrypted message stream and e e k u n f a law enforcement block the law enforcement block thus contains the session key k encrypted under the unit key u concatenated with the serial number n all encrypted under the family key f chip programming and escrow all clipper chips are programmed inside a scif secure computer information facility which is essentially a vault the scif contains a laptop computer and equipment to program the chips about chips are programmed during a single session the scif is located at mikotronx at the beginning of a session a trusted agent from each of the two key escrow agencies enters the vault agent enters an bit value s into the laptop and agent enters an bit value s these values serve as seeds to generate keys for a sequence of serial numbers to generate the unit key for a serial number n the bit value n is first padded with a fixed bit block to produce a bit block n s and s are then used as keys to triple encrypt n producing a bit block r r e d e n s s s similarly n is padded with two other bit blocks to produce n and n and two additional bit blocks r and r are computed r e d e n s s s r e d e n s s s r r and r are then concatenated together giving bits the first bits are assigned to u and the second bits to u the rest are discarded the unit key u is the xor of u and u u and u are the key parts that are separately escrowed with the two escrow agencies as a sequence of values for u u and u are generated they are written onto three separate floppy disks the first disk contains a file for each serial number that contains the corresponding key part u the second disk is similar but contains the u values the third disk contains the unit keys u agent takes the first disk and agent takes the second disk the third disk is used to program the chips after the chips are programmed all information is discarded from the vault and the agents leave the laptop may be destroyed for additional assurance that no information is left behind the protocol may be changed slightly so that four people are in the room instead of two the first two would provide the seeds s and s and the second two the escrow agents would take the disks back to the escrow agencies the escrow agencies have as yet to be determined but they will not be the nsa cia fbi or any other law enforcement agency one or both may be independent from the government law enforcement use when law enforcement has been authorized to tap an encrypted line they will first take the warrant to the service provider in order to get access to the communications line let us assume that the tap is in place and that they have determined that the line is encrypted with clipper they will first decrypt the law enforcement block with the family key f this gives them e k u n they will then take a warrant identifying the chip serial number n to each of the key escrow agents and get back u and u u and u are xored together to produce the unit key u and e k u is decrypted to get the session key k finally the message stream is decrypted all this will be accomplished through a special black box decoder operated by the fbi acknowledgment and distribution notice all information is based on information provided by nsa nist and the fbi permission to distribute this document is granted
sci.crypt	clipper and ranting libertarians i would think that you could reduce the defense of using non clipper based encryption technologies to defending freedom of expression ie free speech that you have to right to express whatever you want in whatever form your little heart desires so long as you do not impinge on the rights of others encrypted text sound video is just another form of expression of that particular text sound video just like digitized sound is another means of expression of sound streams of instead of continuous waveforms also it shouldn t be up to the government at all encryption standards can be decided upon by independent standards orgainizations apologies for the acronym one can note how well this has worked with iso and the metric system sae etc independent entities or consortia of people industries in that particular area are far more qualified to set standards than any one government agency consider for example what the ascii character set would have looked like if it was decided by the government i hope this helps folks to formulate their defenses i m still working on mine and hope to be faxing my congressmen soon d j hagberg hagberg ccit arizona edu finger for info and pgp public key
sci.crypt	would clipper make a good cover for other encryption method clipper might be a good way to cover the use of another layer of encryption currently when you send an encrypted message an opponent can usually tell that you are using encryption which encryption method you are using because that information is usually in the clear with clipper most opponents will only know that you are sending clipper text they won t know that your clipper text is itself encoded only those few opponents who get your clipper keys will know that your message is double encrypted kind of like a safety deposit box containing a lock box so don t just think of replacements for clipper also think of front ends carl carl kadie i do not represent eff this is just me kadie eff org kadie cs uiuc edu
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption in article qnpjuinn ci gap caltech edu hal cco caltech edu hal finney writes brad clarinet com brad templeton writes their strategy is a business one rather than legal one they are pushing to get a standard in place a secret standard and if they get it as a standard then they will drive competitors out of the market it will be legal to sell better untapable encryption that doesn t have registered keys but it will be difficult and thus not a plan for most phone companies if brad s analysis is correct it may offer an explanation for why the encryption algorithm is being kept secret this will prevent competitors from coming out with clipper compatible phones which lack the government installed back door the strategy brad describes will only work as long as the only way to get compatible phones is to have ones with the government chips it would be nice from the point of view of personal privacy if brad turns out to be right as long as people still have the power to provide their own encryption in place of or in addition to the clipper privacy is still possible but the wording of several passages in the announcement makes me doubt whether this will turn out to be true even if what brad says turns out to be accurate you can bet that the administration will have made it very clear to the vendors that it would very much be in their best interests to institute a voluntary policy of refusing to sell anything but clinton cripple equipped equipment to anyone other than authorized government agencies and law enforcement or individuals and corporations who have been been determined by the administration to have a valid need on a case by case basis for an effective system note that this is very much like the language used in many gun control bills laws the administration is pushing for or otherwise supporting the logic and actual rationale as opposed to the excuses that get fed to the media is the same in both cases only the items or technology in question are different i think this is no accident it comes from the same philosophy that the government rules controls the people not the people controlling the government that the unconnected citizens are not sophisticated enough to know what is best for them so the government must tell the people what they need or do not need we know best and the idea that that a commoner can defend himself against government eavesdropping or unlawful attack is totally unacceptable to people with this outlook hal finney combine this all with pushing for national identity cards with smart chips to encode anything they please internal passport under the guise of streamlining the state people s health care system and with you can be certain more jewels yet to come and one sees an extremely ominous trend so what if will be ten years late it still is turning out to be an amazingly accurate prophecy unless a lot of people wake up and in a hurry one should always have every red warning light and bell and danger flag come up when the government seeks to set itself apart in regard to rights etc from the unconnected unprivileged citizen or should we now be saying subject instead why shouldn t the average person have a good secure system of data security not dependent on nebulous safeguards for maintaining that security why shouldn t the average person be able to defend himself from an agency gone rogue i am sure the feds could break into any data they really wanted to but it would take some work and using the same logic one should not be allowed to have a good safe unless a duplicate of the key s or combination are submitted for safekeeping by the government i don t really see a difference philosophically encrypted data sure won t evaporate not with such high tech tools as a tape recorder pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien
sci.crypt	re more technical details encrypted under k then k will be encrypted under the unit key uk and the serial number of the unit added to produce a three part message which will then be encrypted under the system key sk producing e e m k e k uk serial number sk my understanding is that e m k is not encrypted under sk called the family key and that the decrypt key corresponding to sk is held by law enforcement does anyone have first hand knowledge on this i will also check it out but this is am sunday so i did not want to wait ok so there are in fact two distinct components transmitted by the chip the real message encrypted with the conventional key and the serial number and encrypted conventional key encrypted with the imho kind of bogus as the whole concept of one key that millions of people use which can t be changed doesn t seem reasonable family key suppose i analyze the output of this chip and i m able to determine which bits are the encrypted packet which contains the serial number and session key suppose i also design a simple algorithm based on this information which takes the data containing the encrypted session key and twiddles a bit or several before it s sent down the line mind you i m sure the nsa thought of this along with a dozen other attacks i can t imagine and the system is probably somehow designed so that manipulation of this information will cause a compliant receiving chip to somehow fail to decrypt successfully but how what if the two parties agree in advance on some kind of consistent bit twiddling scheme so the decryption chip sees the restored proper bitstream but an eavesdropper gets a e k uk packet that s wrong i suppose this could be easily defeated if the chip sends that information out many times in slightly different ways making it effectively impossible to be certain you know all the information being sent marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu mime ripem accepted if your theory predicts different outcomes depending on whether you use discrete mathematics or continuous mathematics then you ve got the wrong theory bruce maclennan
sci.crypt	re more technical details srt duke cs duke edu stephen r tate writes now i m not one of the people who distrusts the government at every turn but taking someone s word for it that the s s pairs are not kept around is pushing what i m willing to believe just a little bit too far even if they somehow address this issue it is unlikely to be the only back door in they might even have a few intentionally visible to distract from the ones that aren t visible perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
sci.crypt	the escrow database here is a disturbing thought now we no longer live in the days of big filing cabinets we live in the electronic age i asked myself how big could the escrow database get how hard might it be to steal the whole thing particularly were i an nsa official operating with the tacit permission of the escrow houses we can pretend that such will not happen but thats naive well lets see ten bytes of each escrow half lets asume ten bytes of serial number in fact i believe the serial number is smaller but this is an order of magnitude calculation we assume as the population and that each person has a key i get five gigabytes for each of the two escrow databases fits conveniently on a single very valuable exabyte tape this can only get easier with time but who cares i can already hold all the clipper keys in the country in my pocket on two mm tapes admittely they will think of safeguards they won t put the whole database on one disk prehaps maybe they will throw stumbling blocks in the way this changes nothing they keys will be needed every day by hundreds if not thousands of law enforcement types so convenience will dictate that the system permit quick electronic retrieval at some point with or without collusion by the agencies those exabyte tapes are going to get cut dorothy denning and david sternlight will doubtless claim this can t happen but we know that can t is a prayer not a word that in this instance connotes realism with two exabyte tapes in your pocket you would hold the keys for every person s conversations in the country in your hands yeah you need the master key two but thats just ten bytes of information that have to be stored an awful lot of places come to think of it even if the nsa getting a copy of the database isn t a threat to you because unlike me you have no contraversial political views consider foreign intelligence services you know the ones that david sternlight wants to protect us from because of the evil industrial espionage that they do the french apparently do have a big spying operation in friendly countries to get industrial secrets so he isn t being completely irrational here although why our companies couldn t use cryptosystems without back doors is left unexplained by those that point out this threat presumably foreign intelligence services can get moles into the nsa and other agencies we have proof by example of this its happened many times presumably someday they will get their hands on some fraction of the keys you can t avoid that sort of thing don t pretend that no one unauthorized will ever get their hands on the escrow databases we crypto types are all taught something very important at the beginning of intro to cryptography security must depend on the easily changed key that you pick to run your system and not on a secret the escrow databases aren t the sorts of secrets that our teachers told us about but they are the sort of big secrets they would lump into this category imagine trying to replace million clipper chips i cannot believe that the nsa or whomever it is thats doing this doesn t realize all this already they are too smart there are too many of them who have made their bones in the real world i suspect that they know precisely what they are doing and that what they are doing is giving us the appearance of safety so that they can continue to surveil in spite of the growth of strong cryptography i suspect that they realize that they can t put things off forever but they can try to delay things as long as possible who knows maybe even some of the higher ups the inevitable bureaucratic types that rise in any organization really do believe that this scheme might give people some security even as their subordinates in fort meade wring their hands over the foolishness of it all perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption rlward afterlife ncsc mil robert ward writes in article bontchev fbihh bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de writes and since the us constitutions guarantees the right to every american to bear arms why is not every american entitled as a matter of have you read the applicable part of the constitution and interpreted it in context if not please do so before posting this misinterpretation again it refers to the right of the people to organize a militia not for individuals to carry handguns grenades and assault rifles the supreme court seems to disagree with you they have stated that the people is a term of art refering to an individual right and have explicitly mentioned the second amendment as an example i quote the people seems to have been a term of art employed in select parts of the constitution the preamble declares that the constitution is ordained and established by the people of the the u s the second amendment protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms supreme court of the u s u s v uerdugo uriquidez furthermore in the miller decision they only permitted prosecution for possession of a sawed off shotgun because the defense had not presented testimony and they therefore accepted the argument of the government that such weapons have no military value they held that the amendment protected the individual right to possess military weapons unfortunately no second amendment case has successfully gotten to the court in fifty years however that does not change the interpretation furthermore it appears that others disagree with you as well vis the conclusion is thus inescapable that the history concept and wording of the second amendment to the constitution of the united states as well as its interpretation by every major commentator and court in the first half century after its ratifi cation indicates that what is protected is an individual right of a private citizen to own and carry firearms in a peaceful manner report of the subcommittee on the constitution of the committee on the judiciary united states senate th congress second session february you might rightfully ask well then what does that first bit about militias mean well militia in historical context basically means the whole of the adult males of the country indeed the u s code still defines militia as all armed men over the age of the militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense and these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time supreme court of the united states u s v miller the reason for the phrase being there was to explain the rationale behind the amendment which was this by depending on the people to bear arms in defense of the country no centralization of military power could ever occur which would permit tyranny in short the government would remain perpetually in fear of the people rather than the other way around no free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms the strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is as a last resort to protect themselves against tyranny in government thomas jefferson proposal virginia constitution june thomas jefferson papers c j boyd ed and what country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance let them take arms the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants thomas jefferson letter to william s smith in jefferson on democracy s padover ed before a standing army can rule the people must be disarmed as they are in almost every kingdom of europe the supreme power in america cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword because the whole body of the people are armed and constitute a force superior to any bands of regular troops that can be on any pretense raised in the united states noah webster an examination into the leading principles of the federal constitution in pamphlets on the constitution of the united states p ford you may disagree with the second amendment and wish that it be repealed but please do not pretend that it isn t there and that it doesn t mean what it says you might argue that conditions have changed and that it should no longer be present but you can t imagine it away i could fill a book with detailed argumentation many have already however none of this has anything to do with cryptography lets get it out of here if you insist on discussing this please do it in talk politics guns where people will gladly discuss this matter with you perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
sci.crypt	re fighting the clipper initiative steve b access digex com steve brinich writes as a flaming libertarian paranoid extremist i at a loss for specific objections that don t sound frighteningly technical the idea that foisting the cripple chip standard on us manufacturers would result in saying sayonara to yet another high tech market isn t technical isn t in the least difficult to understand and plays on a concern lots of people are worried about already could you expand on this i have a feeling you re right but i don t quite understand you could be an ocarina salesman going metatron press austin texas from door to door laurie anderson human systems performance group
sci.crypt	re clipper chip bush did it johng ecs comm mot com john gilbert writes this must have been in the works for some time the bush administration must have been working on it for quite a while clinton simply took the credit or blame depending on how you look at it and the initiative for actual implementation clinton is not just an innocent bystander here they didn t just slap his name on it without consulting him what exactly is his extensive history of individual rights advocacy that people are assuming he really has nothing to do with this he just went back on his pledge to cut the espionage budget and is now asking for more money than even bush wanted i ve left my body to science and science is contesting the will
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more dave ihnat ignatz chinet chi il us wrote in article qpg finn dns nmsu edu amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor writes not to pick on mr may in particular of course but isn t this kind of the domino theory when one little country falls its neighbor will surely follow and before you know it we re all mining salt in siberia for not turning in our captain crunch secret decoder rings but for all the wrongness of our attempt to correct it vietnam et al the domino theory wasn t disproved at all ironically the domino theory in fact was a reasonable metaphor for the collapse of communism from the liberalizations in poland and hungary to the border crossings in the summer of to the fall of the wall later that year and then to the ultimate collapse of the ussr tim may timothy c may crypto anarchy encryption digital money tcmay netcom com anonymous networks digital pseudonyms zero knowledge reputations information markets w a s t e aptos ca black markets collapse of governments higher power public key pgp and mailsafe available
sci.crypt	re source of random bits on a unix workstation in article qs cg cq msuinfo cl msu edu mrr scss cl msu edu mark riordan writes a few more sources are statistics on your filesystems easily and quickly obtained and the output from the rusage system call you can also exec a finger to one or more favorite heavily used systems though this can take several seconds cf the source code to ripem on ripem msu edu mark r other alternatives include output of vmstat iostat pstat and friends with various flags or even better crash e g on an rs aix you can get lots of relatively unpredicatble data out of crash the output from the following script usually gives about k of goo on a moderately busy system bin sh crash proc tty stack pcb callout vfs socket vnode inode mbuf file mst buffer le mark henderson markh wimsey bc ca ripem key available by key server finger e mail md ofpublickey f f f c cbeaf adafa
sci.crypt	re white house public encryption management fact sheet alan barrett barrett lucy ee und ac za wrote in article c lgaz dove nist gov clipper csrc ncsl nist gov clipper chip announcement writes in making this decision i do not intend to prevent the private sector from developing or the government from approving other microcircuits or algorithms that are equally effective in assuring both privacy and a secure key escrow system in making this decision i intend to prevent the private sector from developing except with the government s approval other microcircuits or algorithms that are more effective in assuring privacy doesn t this just mean that the government might not approve something for use by other government agencies this does not sound to me to be any form of threat that joe user can t develop and use his own encryption algorithm you want it should sing too yeah we got dogs and valvoline ngorelic speclab cr usgs gov its a pretty damn good time life is pain anyone that tells you different is trying to sell you something
sci.crypt	do we need the clipper for cheap security amanda intercon com amanda walker writes the answer seems obvious to me they wouldn t there is other hardware out there not compromised des as an example triple des as a better one so where can i buy a des encrypted cellular phone how much does it cost personally cylink stuff is out of my budget for personal use if the clipper chip can do cheap crypto for the masses obviously one could do the same thing without building in back doors indeed even without special engineering you can construct a good system right now a standard codec chip a chip to do vocoding a des chip a v bis integrated modem module and a small processor to do glue work are all you need to have a secure phone you can dump one or more of the above if you have a fast processor with integration you could put all of them onto a single chip and in the future they can be yes cheap crypto is good but we don t need it from the government you can do everything the clipper chip can do without needing it to be compromised when the white house releases stuff saying this is good because it gives people privacy note that we didn t need them to give us privacy the capability is available using commercial hardware right now indeed were it not for the government doing everything possible to stop them qualcomm would have designed strong encryption right in to the cdma cellular phone system they are pioneering were it not for the nsa and company cheap encryption systems would be everywhere as it is they try every trick in the book to stop it had it not been for them i m sure cheap secure phones would be out right now they aren t the ones making cheap crypto available they are the ones keeping cheap crypto out of people s hands when they hand you a clipper chip what you are getting is a mess of pottage your prize for having traded in your birthright and what did we buy with our birthright did we get safety from foreigners no they can read conference papers as well as anyone else and are using strong cryptography did we get safety from professional terrorists i suspect that they can get cryptosystems themselves on the open market that work just fine most of them can t be idiots like the guys that bombed the trade center are we getting cheaper crypto for ourselves no because the market would have provided that on its own had they not deliberately sabotaged it someone please tell me what exactly we get in our social contract in exchange for giving up our right to strong cryptography perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
sci.crypt	re would clipper make a good cover for other encryption method in article apr eff org kadie eff org carl m kadie writes clipper might be a good way to cover the use of another layer of encryption true but will traditional encryptions schemes when further encrypted by clipper be more vulnerable to attacks such as partially known plaintext thomas
sci.crypt	re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only in article c qy m de agora rain com jhart agora rain com jim hart writes since the wiretap chip is being distributed internationally allowing the u s government to spy on foreign governments companies and people as as well as to wiretap domestic citizens this is a world wide issue please put distribution world on the distrubution line thank you no distribution keywords are case sensitive what you want is distribution world or no distribution line at all world in capital letters is wrong apb alan barrett dept of electronic eng univ of natal durban south africa rfc barrett ee und ac za
sci.crypt	re the escrow database perry e metzger pmetzger snark shearson com wrote here is a disturbing thought good stuff elided don t pretend that no one unauthorized will ever get their hands on the escrow databases secret the escrow databases aren t the sorts of secrets that our teachers told us about but they are the sort of big secrets they would lump into this category imagine trying to replace million clipper chips sounds to me like a great gimmick for a replacement market every so often issue a clipper alert announcing that some key backup tapes are missing that some drug lords got em whatever then the owners of these clipperphones have to trot down to their local key escrow agency and buy new chips and have them programmed microtoxin the clipper supplier will make a killing maybe this was the real idea anybody know if janet reno has stock in microtoxin vlsi technology or at t could be a good opportunity to undermine this with some disinformation float rumors that the key database has been stolen all the chips need replacing it angers people undermines confidence even more and kills sales after the waco massacre and the big brother wiretap chip any tactic is fair tim may timothy c may crypto anarchy encryption digital money tcmay netcom com anonymous networks digital pseudonyms zero knowledge reputations information markets w a s t e aptos ca black markets collapse of governments higher power public key pgp and mailsafe available
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in strnlghtc p zp zm netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes in article apr yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes note that measures to protect yourself from tempest surveillance are still classified as far as i know i think this to be inaccurate one can buy tempest equipment commercially even macs sure you can buy a tempest approved mac if you have enough money i haven t had any reason to look at this type of pricing for about years but a tempest rating in would raise the price of a radio shack model iii to something around bill internet bill celestial com bill campbell celestial software uucp thebes camco bill east mercer way uunet camco bill mercer island wa speed costs money how fast do you want to go
sci.crypt	re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only in article almaden ibm com ameline vnet ibm com ian ameline writes i also believe that someone will reverse engineer the clipper chip and knowlege of the algorithm will likely be fairly widespread the chip and algorithm are classified if you reverse engineer it and tell people you are likely to go to jail perhaps some foreign governments or corporations could help us out by cracking the system outside the usa the us government could probably stop importation of clone hardware but a software implementation should be practical john carr jfc athena mit edu
sci.crypt	re do we need the clipper for cheap security from pmetzger snark shearson com perry e metzger indeed were it not for the government doing everything possible to stop them qualcomm would have designed strong encryption right in to the cdma cellular phone system they are pioneering were it not for the nsa and company cheap encryption systems would be everywhere as it is they try every trick in the book to stop it had it not been for them i m sure cheap secure phones would be out right now in the uk it s impossible to get approval to attach any crypto device to the phone network anything that plugs in to our bt phone sockets must be approved for some reason crypto devices just never are i was wondering some time ago how big a market there was for good old fashion acoustic coupler technology to build a secure phone is it possible to mask out all the real voice well enough so that none of it strays into the mouthpiece perhaps a well sealed coupler attachment that was as well blocked as possible then a white noise generator on the outside to muffle any real speech g
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow the cops feds do not need to be able to get hold of your private key to listen in to cellular conversations encryption is not end to end but cellphone to base station it has to be this way so that cellular users and fixed installations can talk to each other for cellular to cellular calls the transmission is decrypted at the base station passed to another base station and re encrypted the cops feds can listen to the unscrambled call provided they get a warrant to tap into the cellular provider s equipment the only reason for wanting a crackable system is so they can listen without having to obtain a warrant but maybe the clipper system is secure and they really do need a warrant to get the key out of escrow before they can listen in using a scanner see above they don t have to go down this route anyway i have my doubts but even if true once they have the key they will never again need a warrant to tap into that particular phone whenever they want well judge it appears he wasn t a drug dealer after all so naturally we ll stop listening in that was true for the uk paul but i m fairly sure they re talking about building end to end encryption phones out of this chip it s not for cellular though it certainly could be used there in the way you suggest g
sci.crypt	screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only since the at t wiretap chip is scheduled to be distributed internationally allowing the u s government to spy on foreign governments companies and people as as well as to wiretap domestic citizens this is a world wide issue thus distribution world ygoland wright seas ucla edu the jester writes however assuming that i can still encrypt things as i please who cares about the clipper chip why do we hackers care about the clipper chip do we give a shit about anybody s privacy accept our own and perhaps not even our own are we so smart that we always know when we re talking to somebody who has a wiretap on their phone i find the call thru your computer ideas may reflect this attitude ideas that are of by and for hackers and don t help anybody in the real world aren t going to do anybody much good including ourselves where voice phones are concerned we do need an alternative to nsa bugged telephones but we re talking inexpensive telephones here including hand sized cellulars that need strong crypto real privacy make shift computer hacker rigs that require living by your computer to talk privately over the phone are just a dumb stunt that doesn t do anything for anybody s privacy in the real world what we need is a true privacy chip for example a real time voice encryption rsa silicon compile it and spit out asic put this chip on the market as a de facto standard for international business diplomats and private communications if the u s bans it we make it somewhere else and import it the japanese german dutch taiwanese korean etc electronics companies don t want the nsa spying on them u s workers lose more jobs to government fascist stupidity jhart agora rain com
sci.crypt	screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only date apr gmt from jhart agora rain com jim hart simply everyone should have this attitude the only people who can have this attitude are the most hard core computer hackers who never make phone calls away from their computer in yeards everybody will be talkig into his or her pda anyway that should solve most of the problem
sci.crypt	re fighting the clipper initiative as a flaming libertarian paranoid extremist i at a loss for specific objections that don t sound frighteningly technical the idea that foisting the cripple chip standard on us manufacturers would result in saying sayonara to yet another high tech market isn t technical isn t in the least difficult to understand and plays on a concern lots of people are worried about already could you expand on this simple if you have a choice between american manufacturers peddling cripple chips with a secret untested algorithm whose keys are held by people with a history of untrustworthy behavoir or japanese to pick the obvious example manufacturers peddling encryption chips with an algorithm that has faced public scrutiny and keys under the control of the user which would you choose at most the american government can deny this choice to american citizens and probably not that if the glorious success of the war on drugs is any example it can t do much about the global market
sci.crypt	re fifth amendment and passwords in article apr bernina ethz ch caronni nessie cs id ethz ch germano caronni writes just a question as a provider of a public bbs service aren t you bound by law to gurantee intelligble access to the data of the users on the bbs if police comes with sufficent authorisation i guessed this would be a basic condition for such systems i did run a bbs some time ago but that was in switzerland you are obliged to let the police search the equipment if they have a proper court order you are under no legal obligation to keep the data intelligble if you wish to run your bbs entirely with all data encrypted such that if the police show up they cannot read anything well thats their problem there are no legal restrictions on domestic use of cryptography in the united states yet perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
sci.crypt	facinating facts bit serial number possibly fixed s and s denning guvax acc georgetown edu vidkun abraham lauritz quisling writes each chip includes the following components the skipjack encryption algorithm f an bit family key that is common to all chips n a bit serial number u an bit secret key that unlocks all messages encrypted with the chip hmmm a thirty bit serial number and we are told the unit key u is derived deterministically from this serial number that means that there are only one billion possible unit keys to generate the unit key for a serial number n the bit value n is first padded with a fixed bit block to produce a bit block n s and s are then used as keys to triple encrypt n producing a bit block r r e d e n s s s similarly n is padded with two other bit blocks to produce n and n and two additional bit blocks r and r are computed r e d e n s s s r e d e n s s s r r and r are then concatenated together giving bits the first bits are assigned to u and the second bits to u the rest are discarded the unit key u is the xor of u and u u and u are the key parts that are separately escrowed with the two escrow agencies hmmm we must assume that generating the unit key u from the serial number n rather than generating it from a randomly selected u and u is an intentional way of assuring a fail safe for the government u is completedly determined given s s and n if s and s do not change they constitute effective master keys along with f the theft of which or the possession of which by various authorities completely obviates the security of the system however more interestingly we know for a fact that if s and s are fixed no matter what the keyspace for u is no more than why not pick u and u at random why this interesting restriction of they key space if it not to provide an additional back door i find it disturbing that at the very best my security is dependant on approximately bytes worth of information that could be written on the back of a napkin even if s and s change periodically the rationale behind this restriction in the size of the keyspace seems strange if one is assuming that the goal is security and makes perfect sense if the goal is an illusion of security if s and s do not change even if they remain secret i wonder if they can somehow be back derived given enough unit key serial number pairs we are assured that this cannot happen but no one understands how skipjack works outside of government officials and soon foreign intelligence services that gain the information via espionage presumably we will eventually have the information as well reverse engineering gets more and more advanced every year but by the time we know it may be too late as a sequence of values for u u and u are generated they are written onto three separate floppy disks the first disk contains a file for each serial number that contains the corresponding key part u the second disk is similar but contains the u values the third disk contains the unit keys u agent takes the first disk and agent takes the second disk the third disk is used to program the chips after the chips are programmed all information is discarded from the vault and the agents leave the laptop may be destroyed for additional assurance that no information is left behind none of this makes me feel the least bit secure the silly notion of destroying the laptop appears to be yet another bizarre distraction we all know that you can t read data from dram that has been turned off for more than a few moments on the other hand what we don t know is why there is a need to generate the unit keys from s and s in the first place other than to weaken the system we don t know if the agents in question would resist a million in cash a piece for their information its probably worth hundreds of million so you can make the bribe arbitrarily hard to resist and to tell you the truth doing this in a vault rather than in joe random tempest shielded room with a laptop computer seems like melodrama designed to make high school dropouts from peoria impressed but it does very little for most of the rest of us the protocol may be changed slightly so that four people are in the room instead of two the first two would provide the seeds s and s and the second two the escrow agents would take the disks back to the escrow agencies what would this provide lets say the escrow agencies are the aclu and the nra and their agents personally take back the disks and are always honest who cares the nsa must be laughing out loud because they have the algorithm to regenerate u given n and likely don t need to steal they keys as they effectively already have them perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
sci.crypt	re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip in article apr jarvis csri toronto edu lewis eecg toronto edu david lewis writes in article bb c mizzou missouri edu c mizzou missouri edu john kelsey writes strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes stuff deleted but who would trust his her confidential information to an encryption scheme that for say could by cracked one time in a hundred des for all the complaints about a bit key would probably cost several million dollars to build a keysearch machine for i can buy a des keysearch machine off the shelf now for approx k but it is not sold by that name go buy a circuit emulation machine eg quickturn containing a bunch of fpgas say to s and program each to be a des search engine lets say chips running at mhz g tests sec time is e sec max weeks weeks average can t wait that long buy a bigger machine oh but can big brother afford such things in these times of tight budgets i don t know how many folks noticed it but dorothy trust me denning gave a real clue to the current state of the art at nsa on decrypto machines when she said the nsa told her they didn t even want to be the holder of any part of the key now why is that i doubt there is a trapdoor in skipjack but we will never know and i doubt the nsa would promote a mass market chip they couldn t compromise ergo nsa is now capable of compromising probably with brute force keysearch engines of the complexity of skipjack look at the specs why i bet they have thousands of little chips chugging away in their crypto busters maybe even tens of thousands complexity not much more than a how many such machines will fit into fort meade i think pgp should have bit idea keys information farming at for addr phone finger a a the ohio state university jebright magnus acs ohio state edu jim ebright e mail jre osu edu support privacy support encryption
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article a rubin dsg dse beckman com arthur rubin writes in strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes i d be happy to use a crypto system supplied by the nsa for business if they told me it was more secure than des and in particular resistant to attempts by japanese french and other competitive companies and governments to break it s nist not nsa nsa is not supposed to have anything to do with this with all the activity in sci crypt these past few days i am not supprised you missed it nist got skipjack from the nsa i d trust the nsa or the president if they stated there were no trap doors i d be even happier if a committee of independent experts examined the thing under seal of secrecy and reported back that it was secure i wouldn t trust the nsa i think i would trust the president on this but i m not certain he would be told i am not a crook president richard m nixon information farming at for addr phone finger a a the ohio state university jebright magnus acs ohio state edu jim ebright e mail jre osu edu support privacy support encryption
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption from brad clarinet com brad templeton let s assume for the moment that the system really is secure unless you get both halves of the encryption key from the two independent escrow houses let s say you even trust the escrow houses one is the aclu and the other is the eff and i m not entirely joking about those two names i m really not entirely sure i trust eff any more to be honest anyway any organisation can be deeply infiltrated look at cnd in britain a dozen years ago one of their top members was an sis spy who stole their complete address list how hard would it be to get one person to sneak in and copy the escrow data to disk g
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption bred wrote and this means that the fbi will want to track the customer lists of better encryption phones because the only reason a person would want one is to evade the police they don t have to track customer lists they merely have to digitally listen to any phone line and eliminate any that don t have the clipper header signature no one has said how it will be modulated want a bet it s a non standard and hence easily recognisable baudrate devices to scan exchanges and detect modems etc already exist i ve seen them advertised in the trade press once you eliminate crippled crypto devices and ordinary data modems what s left is crypto worth looking more closely at i guess any substitute scheme will have to be v bis or v fast to disguise it though then they just start looking at the data too whatever happens though the effect of this new chip will be to make private crypto stand out like a sore thumb g
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes can you while my mind is on it give us one good reason that the algorithm should be a secret algorithm unless this encryption scheme either is a joke or contains features like a master key or other back door for unauthorized eavesdropping hmm here are a couple if the algorithm becomes known it will be easy to produce pin compatible non crippled chips that provide real encryption and privacy because their keys are only in their users hands since skipjack is a symmetric key cypher it needs some way to agree on a session key the released information says that any protocol may be used e g dh from a theoretical point of view this is probably true however from a practical point of view those chips must have some kind of key exchange protocol built in what if it is good old rsa this will mean that the producer will have to pay lots of bucks to pkp by keeping the details secret this can be avoided regards vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center university of hamburg tel fax fachbereich informatik agn pgp public key available on request vogt koelln strasse rm c e mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de d hamburg germany
sci.crypt	re fifth amendment and passwords in article apr bernina ethz ch caronni nessie cs id ethz ch germano caronni writes just a question as a provider of a public bbs service aren t you bound by law to gurantee intelligble access to the data of the users on the bbs if police comes with sufficent authorisation i guessed this would be a basic condition for such systems i did run a bbs some time ago but that was in switzerland the us doesn t yet have many laws covering bbss they re not common carriers they re not phone companies they re just private machines or services operated by businesses there s no obligation to keep records as perry metzger points out if the police come with a search warrant you have to let them see what the warrant demands if it exists and they generally can confiscate the equipment as evidence which is not constitutionally valid but we re only beginning to develop court cases supporting us a court may be able to compel you to tell them information you know such as the encryption password for the disk there aren t any definitive cases yet since it s a new situation and there probably aren t laws specifically covering it but the court can t force you to know the keys and there are no laws preventing you from allowing your users to have their own keys for their own files without giving them to you even in areas that do have established law there is uncertainty there was a guy in idaho a few years ago who had his business records subpoenaed as evidence for taxes or some other business restriction law so he gave the court the records which were in hebrew the us doesn t have laws forcing you to keep your records in english and these were the originals of the records he didn t speak hebrew and neither did anybody in the court organization don t think they were able to do much about it it might be illegal for your bbs to deny access to potential customers based on race religion national origin gender or sexual preference it probably hasn t been tested in court but it seems like a plausible extension of anti discrimination laws affecting other businesses pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at t bell labs m holmdel nj no i m from new jersey i only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	new reason for clipper alg m secrecy apologies for not posting to alt clipper or whatever but it seems it may not be in the newsfeed here there may be another reason good from nsa s point of view horrible from everyone else s why the algorithm chip design might be secret first note that the experts will only look at details and of just the algorithm in addition respected experts from outside the government will be offered access to the confidential details of the algorithm to assess its capabilities and publicly report their findings why not the chip design well here s the possiblity in addition to encryption the chip pre processes voice signals to make them easier to analyze transcribe electronically the chip once widespread might effectively be part of a massively parallel computer for voice grepping the us phone network or the criminal wrong thinking patrons thereof i wouldn t put it past the nsa think how much easier it would make life for them and if this is indeed the case think of the possible public outcry should it become widely known thus the secrecy it might be a good idea to have experts in dsp voice recognition and ai conversation understanding to be on that panel and insist they be given authenticatable design specs and implementation documentation dwight tuinstra best tuinstra sandman ece clarkson edu tolerable tuinstrd craft camp clarkson edu look out kid it s something that you did god knows when but you re doin it again
sci.crypt	facinating facts bit serial number possibly fixed s and s hmmm we must assume that generating the unit key u from the serial number n rather than generating it from a randomly selected u and u is an intentional way of assuring a fail safe for the government u is completedly determined given s s and n if s and s do not change they constitute effective master keys along with f the theft of which or the possession of which by various authorities completely obviates the security of the system however more interestingly we know for a fact that if s and s are fixed no matter what the keyspace for u is no more than why not pick u and u at random why this interesting restriction of they key space if it not to provide an additional back door i find it disturbing that at the very best my security is dependant on approximately bytes worth of information that could be written on the back of a napkin even if s and s change periodically the rationale behind this restriction in the size of the keyspace seems strange if one is assuming that the goal is security and makes perfect sense if the goal is an illusion of security if s and s do not change even if they remain secret i wonder if they can somehow be back derived given enough unit key serial number pairs we are assured that this cannot happen but no one understands how skipjack works outside of government officials and soon foreign intelligence services that gain the information via espionage presumably we will eventually have the information as well reverse engineering gets more and more advanced every year but by the time we know it may be too late perhaps the trusted escrow agencies can be the ones who come up with s and s and if these agencies are really trusted aclu nra is an interesting example we can hope that they ll use some physical process to come up with truly random numbers if the nsa comes up with the numbers that s a trap door you could drive a truck through none of this makes me feel the least bit secure me either it seems from the following that the cpsr is atleats starting to question this bogosity april washington dc computer professionals call for public debate on new government encryption initiative computer professionals for social responsibility cpsr today called for the public disclosure of technical data underlying the government s newly announced public encryption management initiative the new cryptography scheme was announced today by the white house and the national institute for standards and technology nist which will implement the technical specifications of the plan a nist spokesman acknowledged that the national security agency nsa the super secret military intelligence agency had actually developed the encryption technology around which the new initiative is built according to nist the technical specifications and the presidential directive establishing the plan are classified to open the initiative to public review and debate cpsr today filed a series of freedom of information act foia requests with key agencies including nsa nist the national security council and the fbi for information relating to the encryption plan the cpsr requests are in keeping with the spirit of the computer security act which congress passed in in order to open the development of non military computer security standards to public scrutiny and to limit nsa s role in the creation of such standards cpsr previously has questioned the role of nsa in developing the so called digital signature standard dss a communications authentication technology that nist proposed for government wide use in after cpsr sued nist in a foia lawsuit last year the civilian agency disclosed for the first time that nsa had in fact developed that security standard nsa is due to file papers in federal court next week justifying the classification of records concerning its creation of the dss david sobel cpsr legal counsel called the administration s apparent commitment to the privacy of electronic communications as reflected in today s official statement a step in the right direction but he questioned the propriety of nsa s role in the process and the apparent secrecy that has thus far shielded the development process from public scrutiny at a time when we are moving towards the development of a new information infrastructure it is vital that standards designed to protect personal privacy be established openly and with full public participation it is not appropriate for nsa an agency with a long tradition of secrecy and opposition to effective civilian cryptography to play a leading role in the development process cpsr is a national public interest alliance of computer industry professionals dedicated to examining the impact of technology on society cpsr has chapters in the u s and maintains offices in palo alto california cambridge massachusetts and washington dc for additional information on cpsr call or e mail cpsr csli stanford edu regards ian ameline
sci.crypt	stray thought was re more technical details in apr ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes date sun apr edt from denning cs georgetown edu dorothy denning the clipper chip will have a secret crypto algorithm embedded in the algorithm operates on bit blocks like des and the chip supports all des modes of operation the algorithm uses rounds of scrambling compared with in des so in a few years there could be millions of these chips in the usa all networked together sounds like a good science fiction story the government wants to crack foreign des or whatever messages so they con the public into individually buying all of the components and installing them soon the us could be covered by the largest parallel computer in the world built on top of our current phone net those who suppress freedom always rob quinn do so in the name of law rjq phys ksu edu and order john lindsay quinnbob ksuvm bitnet
sci.crypt	list of large integer arithmetic packages this is the file bignums txt from ripem msu edu last updated april in response to email requests i have assembled this list of large integer arithmetic packages of which i have heard most of these are c function libraries available in source form for your convenience i have placed copies of some of these on ripem msu edu they are available for anonymous ftp in the directory pub bignum however what i have may not be the most current version in all cases here they are in no particular order mp multiple precision package that comes with some unixes multiple precision package accessed via lmp flag on your compiler provides gcd exponentiation sqrt comes with sunos next mach bbn mach and probably a few others see man mp object code only of course pari henri cohen et al universite bordeaux i paris france multiple precision desk calculator and library routines contains optimized assembly code for motorola semi optimized code for sparc and apparently rather slow generic c version does both integers and reals does vectors and matrices as well as scalars contains a number of advanced functions some of which i ve never heard of weber s function has a factorization function primality test other related stuff plenty of tex documentation public domain but you can t distribute modified versions available via anonymous ftp from math ucla edu there seem to be mac and next specific versions there in addition to filename pari a tar z arithmetic in global fields arith kevin r coombes david r grant package of routines for arbitrary precision integers or polynomials over finite fields includes basic and a few others like gcd source code in c distributed under the terms of the gnu public license includes man pages and tex documentation filename arith tar z arbitrary precision math library lloyd zusman los gatos ca c package which supports basic provides for radix points i e non integers not as polished as the others here posted to comp sources misc in october filename apml tar z bignum j vuillemin inria france and others distributed by digital equipment paris research lab decprl a portable and efficient arbitrary precision integer package c code with generic c kernel plus assembly kernels for mc x intel i mips ns pyramid and of course vax this is probably one of the better known packages of this type implements mod plus logical operations or and xor both signed and unsigned arithmetic available available via email from librarian decprl dec com you will receive shell archives give your postal address and you will also receive printed documentation from france package includes tex documentation publicly available for non commercial use i removed this from my archive when i heard a rumor that prl doesn t like others to distribute it however bignum is distributed as part of ecpp see below lenstra s package arjen lenstra bellcore portable unsigned integer package written entirely in c includes exponentiation mod primality testing sqrt random number generator and a few others the package was uncommented and undocumented i have tried to add enough comments to get by this is the only of these packages that i have actually used it works well and is very portable i haven t done any benchmarks against the others but the code looks clever lenstra is an accomplished number theorist unlike the other packages here this one requires you to allocate storage statically only a problem if your numbers are really huge arjen has placed the code in the public domain filename lenstra tar z lenstra arjen lenstra bellcore an improved version of arjen s package above this one does signed arithmetic and dynamic allocation which can be turned off as an option has a few new routines too lenstra contains minor bugfixes to the previously available lenstra and lenstra filename lenstra c bmp brent s multiple precision r p brent vintage fortran code to do extended precision floating fixed point arithmetic includes most of the mathematical functions you d find in a fortran run time library this code is an acm algorithm number to obtain send a mail message to netlib ornl gov containing the line send mp f from bmp or better yet perhaps just start with help spx kannan alagappan joseph tardo dec this is a huge prototype public key authentication system based on rsa i mention it here because those who have heard of spx have probably correctly guessed that it contains a large integer package and i want to inform you that the large integer package it contains is indeed dec s bignum from france you can get a beta test copy of spx from crl dec com use it only for testing as it may expire on a certain date i don t know whether this has expired yet amp antti s multiple precision antti louko alo kampi hut fi multiple precision integer package in c includes pow mod x mod y random sqrt gcd available for non commercial use the package includes share secret a public key system based on the diffie hellman algorithm this is normally part of the well known des dist tar z but i have removed the des part to avoid having to deal with cryptographic export laws and have named the result filename amp tar z gennum per bothner u of wisconsin madison c routines and classes to do generic arithmetic both integer and rational formerly available on sevenlayer cs wis edu however it seems to have disappeared sorry miracl by someone in dublin ireland integer and fractional multiple precision package includes factorization primality testing encryption not public domain apparently it is available from the austin code works see ads in byte magazine or dr dobbs precision dave barrett barrettd tigger colorado edu multiple precision integer package in c with sqrt rand mod pow log simple vector support does dynamic allocation of memory free as long as you don t sell it or any program that uses it filename precision tar z ubasic prof yuji kida rikkyo university nishi ikebukuro tokyo japan kida rkmath rikkyo ac jp multiple precision version of the basic programming language for ms dos includes floating point said by keith briggs to be pretty fast object only i think ervin morekypr bitnet says this is the best package that i know of for fast arithmetic has a version optimized for machines includes routines to do mpqs the fastest currently known general factoring algorithm an additional file is at both sites to allow mpqs to use hard drives so that it can factor up to digits many number theoretical functions are included in ubasic it allows over digits of precision available via anonymous ftp from shape mps ohio state edu or simtel army mil or wuarchive wustl edu calc v unknown ms dos c like language that allows infinite precision nice intrinsic functions ervin morekypr bitnet reports problems when changing precision on the fly see simtel or wuarchive briggs arith keith briggs kbriggs mundoe maths mu oz au turbo pascal source for routines that do multiple precision sqrt gcd factoring rand for integers also includes and rand for rational numbers filename briggs arith pas institute fur experimentelle mathematik dr gerhard schneider fast c multiple precision subroutine library i don t know anything about it sl ely cl cam ac uk says to contact mat de hrz a bitnet for more info postal address institute fur experimentelle mathematik ellernstr d essen germany longint markus mueller mueller komsys tik ethz ch multi precision arithmetic written in modula with the most time critical parts written in assembler includes basic arithmetics as well as arithmetics modulo a number an additional module provides a collection of procedures for primality testing gcd multiplicative inverse and more the package is part of a privacy enhanced mail pem package which includes a pem mailer rsa key generator and certificate generation tools source is in modula c and assembler for sun longint has also been ported to ms dos under logitech modula and turbo assembler availability free for university use research and education otherwise a source license is required to obtain write or email to markus mueller bertastrasse ch dietikon switzerland email mueller komsys tik ethz ch bignum henrik johansson nexus comm se bignum package written in portable c will in the future conform to the common lisp functions that handles integers currently includes exponentiation exptmod comparison random numbers and gcd filename bignum gnu multiple precision gnu free software foundation multiple precision package i haven t looked at it yet this is current as of april but there may be a more recent version by the time you read this this package is very widely available on ftp sites filename gmp tar z elliptic curve primality proving francois morian france large package to prove the primality of any prime includes inria s bignum package obtained from ftp inria fr filename ecpp v tar z pgp pretty good privacy philip zimmermann prz sage cgd ucar edu intel based crypto package that includes bignum routines in c said to be quite fast for intel processors unix and mac versions also available the crypto package violates rsa patents but the bignum routines can be used without fear of legal repercussions bell s arbitrary precision calculator david i bell australia dbell pdact pd necisa oz au arbitrary precision calculator with good online help c like language many builtin functions support for integers rational numbers they work like floating point complex numbers matrices strings lists files objects includes gcd primality testing even trig functions recommended large package though obtained from comp sources unix filename calc tar z built in support in other languages various multiple precision arithmetic is available in a number of programming languages such as lisp and abc cf mcsun eu net perl by larry wall available from devvax jpl nasa gov includes source in perl for such a package but it s probably not suitable for serious use for some of these source code may be available this list is long enough so i m not going to pursue it aggressively thanks to ed vielmetti and several others who contributed to this list mark riordan mrr ripem msu edu
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption nobody seems to have noticed that the clipper chip must have been under development for considerably longer than the months that clinton has been president this is not something that choosing choosing bush over clinton would have changed in the slightest it has been in the works for some time
sci.crypt	re facinating facts bit serial number possibly fixed s and s from pmetzger snark shearson com perry e metzger denning guvax acc georgetown edu vidkun abraham lauritz quisling writes each chip includes the following components the skipjack encryption algorithm f an bit family key that is common to all chips n a bit serial number u an bit secret key that unlocks all messages encrypted with the chip hmmm a thirty bit serial number and we are told the unit key u is derived deterministically from this serial number that means that there are only one billion possible unit keys oh hell it s much worse than that you think they ll ever make more than a million of them serial numbers aren t handed out at random you know they start at and work up call it a bit space maybe g
sci.crypt	re clipper chip technical details in article apr ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes nothing was said about where k p comes from if you ve got a secure device you don t need public keys if the secret key which all chips share is sk you can just use kp e myname yourname date sk maybe that s why jim bidzos was reported as being cheesed off ross
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more with e mail if they can t break your pgp encryption they ll just call up one of their tempest trucks and read the electromagnetic emmisions from your computer or terminal note that measures to protect yourself from i could independently invent about half a dozen right off the top of my head if i had studied advanced e m a little better i could probably come up with a very good system wouldn t a a second monitor of similar type scrolling gibberish and adjacent to the one being used provide reasonable resistance to tempest attacks rob stampfli rob colnet cmhnet org the neat thing about standards ham radio kd wk n jyv oh there are so many to choose from
sci.crypt	re the old key registration idea in article qn ic hp access digex net pcw access digex com peter wayner writes that leads me to conjecture that the system is vulnerable to simple phone swapping attacks i seriously doubt that any practical implementation of this proposal would place the onus on the individual to register keys realistically the clipper chip will probably emit an id code which will serve as the identifier when requesting the key fragments the chip manufacturer would register this identifier code vs key combination when the chip is made and the uninitiated end user can therefore remain completely outside the loop the chip could be used in a cellular phone a modem or other device it really makes no difference when the authorities detect the use of this encryption standard during surveillance they would then capture the id and apply for the key in order to decrypt the data rob stampfli rob colnet cmhnet org the neat thing about standards ham radio kd wk n jyv oh there are so many to choose from
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes if the clinton clipper is so very good please note that bill clinton probably has little if anything to do with the design implementation or reasoning behind this chip or behind any moves being made using this chip as a pawn remember when you elect a president of the united states it s not the case that all the republicans etc in the nsa and fbi and cia immediately pack their bags and get replaced by a team of fresh young democrats most of the government say is appointed or hired rather than elected since this clipper device has been in production for over six months it probably has little or no foundation in the currently elected democratic executive body btw those who suggest that this is just an attack on clinton believe this i would be going ballistic reagardless who seriously proposed this thing it is just another step in a gradual erosion of our rights under the constitution or bill of rights the last couple of decades have been a non stop series of end runs around the protections of the constitution it has to stop now is as good a time as any if it isn t too late allready could be however the sky hasn t fallen yet chicken little pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien
sci.crypt	re don t fight clipper chip subvert or replace it in article ygoland wright the jester writes proof windows is a virus it is very widespread it eats up your disk space it slows down your computer it takes control over your computer it performs disk access at random times it displays silly messages on your screen it randomly crashes the computer vesselin this sounds like a version unix solaris
sci.crypt	spoofing clipper serial number secrecy in clipper chip the serial number of the clipper chip is encrypted with the system key and transmitted as one part of a three part message presumably the protocol can be recovered if by nothing else differential analysis postulate if you will a chip or logic sitting between the clipper chip and its communications channel the purpose of this chip is twofold transmit channel the spoof chip xors the bit encrypted serial number with a secondary keying variable this renders the serial number unrecoverable with just the system key recieve channel the spoof chip xors the incoming encrypted serial number with a secondary keying variable assuming the serial number is necessary for local operation this has the net result of hiding the serial number this gets more interesting when the number of serial numbers issued becomes large making it difficult to distinguish between valid serial numbers and a spoofed serial number without knowing the system key you could lie about the serial number but risk detection of the lie if you had the system key and the encryption algorithm you could successfully lie with a lower probability of detection by emulating the format of your own serial number makes you wonder whats being hidden here seems like the secrecy is to prevent you from lying about who you are
sci.crypt	how large are commercial keys what are the typical sizes for keys for commercial secret key algorithms i know des is bits tripple des is bits and idea is bits is there anything made in the us that has bit keys anything anywhere that has larger keys i ve heard that rc can be scaled to arbitrarily large keys but is this actually implemented anywhere finally can anyone even concieve of a time place where bit keys aren t sufficient i certainly can t even at a trillion keys a second it would take about billion years to search just one billionth of that keys space thanks dane
sci.crypt	re do we need the clipper for cheap security pmetzger snark shearson com perry e metzger writes if the clipper chip can do cheap crypto for the masses obviously one could do the same thing without building in back doors i agree so why is cylink the only and expensive game in town note i think cylink is great and if my boss would double my salary i d buy a bunch of their stuff one thing that clipper offers is interoperability at a higher degree of security than we currently have in non proprietary voice encryption systems this means it will be cheaper than anyone s proprietary scheme and easier to deploy this is of course either a bug or a feature depending on how you look at it indeed even without special engineering you can construct a good system right now a standard codec chip a chip to do vocoding a des chip a v bis integrated modem module and a small processor to do glue work are all you need to have a secure phone great where can i buy it another note if clipper increases the incentive to bring stronger encryption to the mass market all the better it s far overpriced at the moment yes cheap crypto is good but we don t need it from the government i don t care where we need to get it from i care where we can get it from and whether it will interoperate with everyone else indeed were it not for the government doing everything possible to stop them qualcomm would have designed strong encryption right in to the cdma cellular phone system they are pioneering were it not for the nsa and company cheap encryption systems would be everywhere as it is they try every trick in the book to stop it had it not been for them i m sure cheap secure phones would be out right now you can build them right now as long as you don t want to export a restriction i firmly oppose the only thing stopping people from making cheap encryption is greed they want a lock on the market they aren t the ones making cheap crypto available they are the ones keeping cheap crypto out of people s hands when they hand you a clipper chip what you are getting is a mess of pottage your prize for having traded in your birthright oh come on only if you trust it farther than it deserves a clipper phone is not a substitute for a cylink phone or a stu iii it s a substitute for the voice scramblers advertised in the back of radio electronics are we getting cheaper crypto for ourselves no because the market would have provided that on its own had they not deliberately sabotaged it i disagree modulo itar it s not the government that has sabotaged the market someone please tell me what exactly we get in our social contract in exchange for giving up our right to strong cryptography can you tell me where exactly we have given up that right amanda walker intercon systems corporation
sci.crypt	clipper considered harmful if clipper comes to cellular phones along with legal proscriptions against using other cipher systems on these phones a new and potentially dangerous class of crime is created criminals who very badly want inscrutable tactical communications specifically the terrorists and drug dealers who proponents of key escrow cite as threats will be highly motivated to steal the cipher phone of a legitimate user and to kill this person or hold them hostage so discovery of compromise of the device will be delayed once a suitable collection of devices is stolen criminals can communicate with impunity assuming the cipher system carries no trapdoors apart from key escrow until and unless the compromise is discovered by some other means because life is cheap criminals are currently willing to kill people to steal very large and conspicuous property luxury cars it is reasonable to assume that they will be willing to kill people to steal small and inconspicuous property a cipher cellular phone just as we have seen in the past with blue box technology and in the present with modified cellular phones we can expect to see among high stakes criminals a lucrative market for stolen cipher phones which can be used for a few days the high stakes criminals will pay the life is cheap types substantial amounts for stolen instruments because a person is typically discovered as missing or dead in a few days a stolen instrument will be usable for only a few days there will be a continuing demand for fresh phones fresh bodies in other words clipper and similar systems have the potential to turn a current inconvenience to law enforcement into a direct vicious and persistent threat to the general public on the other hand if a criminal were to apply some arbitrary cipher to a device in a mostly non ciphered network the communication will at least stand out as being unusual and perhaps worthy of other means of investigation finally because there is essentially no possibility of intercepting in realtime the scrutable content of communications between stolen instruments there will exist strong motivation to record and archive all communications in the network for ex post facto scrutiny once some criminal act is discovered and the instruments involved have been identified while recording and archiving may not be feasible for wireline networks it is probably feasible across the more limited bandwidth of radio networks the existence of these recordings could open up vast potential for abuse brad yearwood brad optilink com uunet pyramid optilink brad petaluma ca
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article apr colnet cmhnet org res colnet cmhnet org rob stampfli writes with e mail if they can t break your pgp encryption they ll just call up one of their tempest trucks and read the electromagnetic emmisions from your computer or terminal note that measures to protect yourself from i could independently invent about half a dozen right off the top of my head if i had studied advanced e m a little better i could probably come up with a very good system wouldn t a a second monitor of similar type scrolling gibberish and adjacent to the one being used provide reasonable resistance to tempest attacks actually old video games and pinball machines are supposed to work pretty good at blocking em eavesdropping too those things put out a lot of em noise back in the s i read about computer companies putting bunches of games in their buildings for just this purpose not to mention the dane
sci.crypt	re is there any security in the clipper in article zeev apr sepia ccc amdahl com zeev ccc amdahl com ze ev wurman writes it seems to me that all discussions about clipper security are almost irrelevant if i cannot choose the key but have to use a key chosen for me by the foundry the security of the whole universe of users is as good or as bad as the security of vlsi technologies inc or their handlers it is a trivial effort to run any ciphertext agains all the keys ever manufactured after all we are talking about to million keys that will ever be manufactured the key depositories can be as secure and incorruptible as they wish to be nobody cares anyway they key depositories are irrelevant in order for the applicable law enformcement agencies to be able to know what keys to request from escrow the system will have to squawk its serial number in clear text as part of the link establishment protocol whoever owns the program that assigns keys to each serial number won t need access to the key depository in other words the fbi may need a court ordered release of escrowed keys but the nsa has the keys before the chip is ever manufactured there is no need to go through the escrow or to try all keys while relations between law enforment agencies have sometimes been strained there is also a long history of trading favors this will re establish the nsa as a very important agency for everyone to get along with because they can give you untraceable encryption leaks without court orders the more i think about this affair the fouler it smells i d rather have a des with an engineered in backdoor lars poulsen smts software engineer internet e mail lars cmc com cmc network products rockwell int l telephone santa barbara ca telefax
sci.crypt	re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks jhart agora rain com jim hart writes you don t care that people are being lied to fooled into believing the chip gives privacy when it fact it allows wiretaps it does give privacy just not absolute privacy the announcement was very up front about this and about allowing wiretaps how is this fooling anyone are you so smart that you know when you re talking to somebody who has a wiretap chip on their phone instead of a privacy chip with private keys sure the two don t interoperate you couldn t talk to say a cylink phone from a clipper phone i would expect even multiprotocal phones to come with indicators saying which kind of link encryption is in use we do need an alternative to nsa bugged telephones but we re talking inexpensive telephones here including hand sized cellulars that need strong crypto real privacy so start a company and build them this is still mostly a capitalist economy what we need is a true privacy chip for example a real time voice encryption rsa put it into a silicon compiler and spit out asic put this chip on the market as a de facto standard for international business diplomats and private communications i agree go for it amanda walker intercon systems corporation
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption ted dunning ted nmsu edu wrote nobody seems to have noticed that the clipper chip must have been under development for considerably longer than the months that clinton has been president this is not something that choosing choosing bush over clinton would have changed in the slightest it has been in the works for some time actually many of us have noted this we have noted that the program started at least years ago that the contracts with vlsi technology and microtoxin were let at least months ago that production of the chips is well underway and so forth nobody i know has claimed clinton intitiated the program but he chose to go ahead with it tim may timothy c may crypto anarchy encryption digital money tcmay netcom com anonymous networks digital pseudonyms zero knowledge reputations information markets w a s t e aptos ca black markets collapse of governments higher power public key pgp and mailsafe available
sci.crypt	clipper business as usual notwithstanding all the legitimate fuss about this proposal how much of a change is it att s last product in this area a was priced over as i suspect clipper phones will be b came to the customer with the key automatically preregistered with government authorities thus aside from attempting to further legitimize and solidify the fed s posture clipper seems to be more of the same rather than a new direction yes technology will eventually drive the cost down and thereby promote more widespread use but at present the man on the street is not going to purchase a crypto telephone especially when the guy on the other end probably doesn t have one anyway am i missing something the real question is what the gov will do in a year or two when air tight voice privacy on a phone line is as close as your nearest pc that has got to a problematic scenario for them even if the extent of usage never surpasses the underground stature of pgp ray berry kb ht ray ole cdac com rjberry eskimo com compuserve com
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article apr yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes with e mail if they can t break your pgp encryption they ll just call up one of their tempest trucks and read the electromagnetic emmisions from your computer or terminal note that measures to protect yourself from tempest surveillance are still classified as far as i know note that tempest is the name of the shielding standard tempest is not the name of the surveillance technique ken shirriff shirriff sprite berkeley edu disclaimer this is what i ve heard and it s in the sci crypt faq so it s probably true but i can t guarantee it i d like to know if i m wrong
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip gtoal gtoal com graham toal writes whatever happens though the effect of this new chip will be to make private crypto stand out like a sore thumb it already does amanda walker intercon systems corporation
sci.crypt	re would clipper make a good cover for other encryption method in article apr eff org kadie eff org carl m kadie writes clipper might be a good way to cover the use of another layer of encryption but if you are making custom equipment in any case why not just roll your own clipper implementation and report the wrong keys to the escrow agency tells us who is going to be in the chip business if this thing goes through nsa and those with something to hide from nsa if anyone can verify that your phone is not using the key registered to that serial number either they have a court ordered wiretap but what are they going to do tell the judge that this individual really does have privacy all they know is that the keys are not enough but not why they have a court ordered wiretap on a phone in this series this part is really scary since the expectation is that all chips in a particular batch will uses seeds based on the same s and s and the serial number getting the keys for one of a batch may give access to all there is a backdoor which allows all messages to be deciphered without the keys i find this one especially threatening since the scheme seems very open to known plaintext attacks what i need to decipher is the data in the header if i talk to someone who has one of these phones presumably there will be an automatically negotiated key generated i m not trying to decipher the record of the conversation to know what was said i use it as a known plaintext to recover the backdoor represented by the header but i know what the header says for conversations i participate in even worse if the phones in a series have related keys i can buy a phone chip from the same production lot then i can recover its keys either elegantly by talking to myself or by brute force analysis of the actual chip then apply the key generation process with those seeds to find the target keys hmmm i don t think i want to ever come close to these phones even des is starting to look good two cans and a string will provide much better security robert i eachus with standard disclaimer use standard disclaimer function message text in clever ideas return better ideas is
sci.crypt	tempest vs lcd was re once tapped douglas craig holland holland cs colostate edu writes with e mail if they can t break your pgp encryption they ll just call up one of their tempest trucks and read the electromagnetic emmisions from your computer or terminal note that measures to protect yourself from tempest surveillance are still classified as far as i know steiner jupiter cse utoledo edu jason think steiner writes are lcd displays vulnerable to tempest i can see high voltage type display devices being vulnerable crts plasma displays etc but jason beat me to this question what about em radiation from low voltage items like lcd displays perhaps the critical element is the driver circuitry the cabling what about a portable pc mac etc where all the noise is bunched into one tiny area
sci.crypt	re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu jebright magnus acs ohio state edu james r ebright writes now why is that i doubt there is a trapdoor in skipjack but we will never know and i doubt the nsa would promote a mass market chip they couldn t compromise ergo nsa is now capable of compromising probably with brute force keysearch engines of the complexity of skipjack look at the specs why i bet they have thousands of little chips chugging away in their crypto busters maybe even tens of thousands complexity not much more than a how many such machines will fit into fort meade i think pgp should have bit idea keys thousands tens of thousands do some arithmetic please skipjack has possible keys let s assume a brute force engine like that hypothesized for des microsecond per trial million chips that s trials per second or about years for trials well maybe they can get chips running at one trial per nanosecond and build a machine with million chips sure only years for each solution idea uses bit keys shall i bother doing the calculations for you hint multiply years by and you can t do idea at that speed key setup takes much too long i wouldn t be surprised if that were the case for skipjack too though there s no way of knowing just yet des used only xor because that s what was feasible with mid s technology modern chips can do a lot more nsa may or may not know how to crack skipjack and idea i doubt it for the former i have no idea for the latter though it does seem to be a strong cryptosystem but it ain t gonna be by exhaustive search
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article apr coop com felixg coop com felix gallo writes pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes if the clinton clipper is so very good please note that bill clinton probably has little if anything to do with the design implementation or reasoning behind this chip or behind can t we move the political bickering to a more appropriate group brad kepley internet kepley photon phys unca edu work days voice
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful brad optilink com brad yearwood writes criminals who very badly want inscrutable tactical communications specificall the terrorists and drug dealers who proponents of key escrow cite as threats will be highly motivated to steal the cipher phone of a legitimate user and to kill this person or hold them hostage so discovery of compromise of the device will be delayed why doing it in such a rough manner it is much more professional to steal the chip from the phone and even to replace it with a pin compatible do nothing chip that does not encrypt at all chances are that the victim will not notice anything especially if it is done professionally once a suitable collection of devices is stolen criminals can communicate with impunity assuming the cipher system carries no trapdoors apart from key escrow until and unless the compromise is discovered by some other means no because the feds will still be able to decrypt the conversations true they ll blame the wrong guys but nevertheless one cannot say something like the drugs arrive tommorrow on the ship terminus when the feds are listening even if they cannot identify who the speaker is no the criminals will just use some secure encryption the new proposal does not stop criminals it ensures that the government will be able to wiretap the average citizen and stops the casual snooper to me it also clearly looks as a step towards outlawing any other strong encryption devices regards vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center university of hamburg tel fax fachbereich informatik agn pgp public key available on request vogt koelln strasse rm c e mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de d hamburg germany
sci.crypt	re how large are commercial keys butzerd maumee eng ohio state edu dane c butzer writes finally can anyone even concieve of a time place where bit keys aren t sufficient it depends on the algorithm used bit secret keys for rsa are definitively not secure enough regards vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center university of hamburg tel fax fachbereich informatik agn pgp public key available on request vogt koelln strasse rm c e mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de d hamburg germany
sci.crypt	re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only jfc athena mit edu john f carr writes in article almaden ibm com ameline vnet ibm com ian ameline writes i also believe that someone will reverse engineer the clipper chip and knowlege of the algorithm will likely be fairly widespread the chip and algorithm are classified if you reverse engineer it and tell people you are likely to go to jail well i m not a lawyer but from what i can tell this is completely and utterly untrue you see this country has this thing called a constitution if you legitimately aquire the device and you yourself are not a government employee or otherwise encumbered i don t think they can stop you from revealing anything about the device you can determine remember the pentagon papers precedent the first amendment applies here the u s does not have an official secrets act we do have laws that will punish you for revealing what classified information you learned in your capacity as a government official contractor etc and we have laws that prohibit stealing such information however if they sell you the chip i can t see that they can make reverse engineering it and revealing the details illegal perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
sci.crypt	re how does it really work was re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption from marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu the majority of the discussion involving this clipper chip seems to pertain to the encryption of telephone conversations does anyone know if that means this chip is designed to work primarily with analog signals the language sort of suggests this but it s hard to say i d lay a few bucks that its just data in data out in parallel i suspect to make it a phone you d need a codec and speech compression there would be a loss of bandwidth on the speech signal which i suspect would scupper any of the suggestions i ve seen here about putting a different encryption front end on it there s no hint of any modulation scheme in the docs i m sure it s purely a digital chip the back end will come later but i m positive it won t be left to the manufacturers they all have to be the same modulation scheme to make it easy for the nsa to tap them the only other possibility is that this is intended only for isdn phones puts a whole new spin on effs obsession about isdn if true bwahahaha g
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article rwing uucp pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes if the clinton clipper is so very good why not make its algrithm public so many people can exchange ideas and examine it rather than a few isolated respected experts respected by whom for what perhaps a certain professor who likes key banks would be one of the selected experts this does seem to expand on some ideas the person was advocating if i recall how would anybody know that what the actually i am completely baffled by why dorothy denning has chosen to throw away her academic respectability like this it looks to me like a major career limiting move there can be very few people who know what she s been saying who take her seriously any more i wonder if she landed such a fat fee from cooperation with the nsa in the design and propoganda stages that she doesn t care any more g
sci.crypt	re clipper chip from dan mckinnon dan mckinnon canrem com i have lurked here a bit lately and though some of the math is unknown to me found it interesting i thought i would post an article i found in the saturday april toronto star clipper chip to protect privacy politics is of course dirty pool old man and here we have a classic example the nsa and the administration have been working on this for a long time and in parallel with the announcement to us techies we see they re hitting the press with propoganda it s my bet the big magazines byte scientific american et all will be ready to run with a pre written government slanted story on this in the next issue just keep us some pages spare boys we ll give you the copy in time for the presses we must get big names in the industry to write well argued pieces against this proposal can you call it that when it s a de facto announcement and get them into the big magazines before too much damage is done it would be well worth folks archiving all the discussions from here since the day of the announcement to keep all the arguments at our fingertips i think between us we could write quite a good piece now who among us carries enough clout to guarantee publication phil don parker mitch kapor g
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow gtoal news ibmpcug co uk graham toal writes try reading between the lines david there are strong hints in there that they re angling for nren next where i honestly didn t see any hint sophisticated encryption technology has been used for years to protect electronic funds transfer it is now being used to protect electronic mail and computer files while encryption hint this new technology will help companies protect proprietary information protect the privacy of personal phone conversations and prevent unauthorized release of data transmitted electronically at the same time this technology preserves the the privacy of our citizens including the need to employ voice or data encryption for business purposes the ability of authorized officials to access telephone calls and data under proper court or other legal order when necessary to protect our citizens very big hint the administration is committed to working with the private sector to spur the development of a national information infrastructure which will use new telecommunications and computer technologies to give americans unprecedented access to information this infrastructure of high speed networks information superhighways will transmit video images hdtv programming and huge data files as easily as today s telephone system transmits voice very big hint see above since encryption technology will play an increasingly important role in that infrastructure the federal government must act quickly to develop consistent comprehensive policies regarding its use and the only conceivable meaning of applying this particular technology to a computer network is that they intend it to be used in exclusion to any other means of encryption i disagree if for no other reason than that there are already other standards in place besides even if they restrict encryption on the nren who cares most of the internet is commercial anyway the nren is only for geovernment and university research read the proposals it s a data superhighway for cray users not anything having to do with the internet oh i see your point i think you re wrong but if you sit back and wait to find out if i m right it ll be too late just listen very carefully for the first such and such will not be permitted on network xyz shoe to drop g
sci.crypt	re the secret source of that announcement in article marc apr oliver mit edu marc mit edu marc horowitz n nzu writes just who is that i asked myself or rather i asked the computer telnet csrc ncsl nist gov trying connected to csrc ncsl nist gov escape character is first org sendmail nist ready at sat apr edt expn clipper csspab mail gw ncsl nist gov first org closing connection connection closed well isn t that interesting dorothy denning mitch kapor even more interesting the smtp server at csrc ncsl nist gov no longer recognizes the expn and vrfy commands telnet csrc ncsl nist gov smtp trying connected to csrc ncsl nist gov escape character is first org sendmail nist ready at tue apr edt expn clipper command unrecognized seems like sombody didn t like your snooping around marc jurgen botz jbotz mtholyoke edu vending machines should respond to a finger south hadley ma usa request with a list of all items currently unix is dead long live unix available for purchase rfc
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption ted nmsu edu ted dunning writes nobody seems to have noticed that the clipper chip must have been under development for considerably longer than the months that clinton has been president this is not something that choosing choosing bush over clinton would have changed in the slightest it has been in the works for some time i ve got no doubts that this would probably have gone ahead if bush was still president what s puzzling to me are the people who are apparently amazed that clinton is going along with it other than that mrs lincoln how did you like the play
sci.crypt	another key registration body bites the dust imho one of the candidates that has been suggested for a key registration body is the aclu i think this is poor choice the aclu is essentially a group of auditors they audit how people s civil liberties are administered traditionally auditors do not like to get involved in the design or operational aspects of things and with good reason when i was a systems programmer it always infuriated me that the auditors would come in and tell us our implementation stunk from a security point of view but wouldn t tell us how to fix it i always figured they just liked to critcize without doing the work to help fix the problem then i took a stint as an auditor and i found out the real reason auditors don t like to recommend solutions because it puts them in a bad position if they have to criticize the implementation later the auditee can say well you told us this way would be ok it compromises the independence that is a necessary part of the auditor s job taking the case at hand suppose aclu becomes a key half registrar suppose that perhaps through some error on aclu s part a key half gets away that shouldn t and is used to deprive someone of her civil liberties the aclu gets wind of this and wants to take it to court but they end up being at the same time on the side of the defendant and of the plaintiff which is not an easy position to be in there are exceptions to the complete independence of auditors at one place where i worked when payroll checks were printed they were signed automatically by a signature drum on the bursting machine this drum was kept by the auditors who also kept the check stock and was brought down to data processing when it was time to do the checks i believe the difference between this situation and the key registration situation is that it is fairly obvious when it is time to do the payroll checks if they were done yesterday and someone wants to do them again today he better be able to produce yesterday s checks so that they can be destroyed determining which of the many requests for key halves are legit is a trickier process one much more prone to mistakes that could put the aclu in a protecting the client versus protecting the aclu conflict of interest as always my opinions are my own lynn grant grant dockmaster ncsc mil
sci.crypt	re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip in article apr ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes responding to claims about skipjack cracking engines thousands tens of thousands do some arithmetic please skipjack has possible keys let s assume a brute force engine like that hypothesized for des microsecond per trial million chips that s trials per second or about years for trials well maybe they can get chips running at one trial per nanosecond and build a machine with million chips sure only years for each solution i think i should also point out that the mystical des engines are known plaintext engines unless you add a ton of really smart hardware the plaintext is digitized voice and exists for a very short time probably in a couple inches of copper tops it s flatly not available your bug in my office can hear my voice and even digitize it but it s going to get a different bitstream it is horribly naive to suppose that regular folks can figure out how to crack skipjack or clipper based telephones i m certainly not devoting a great deal of thought to it andrew molitor
sci.crypt	estimating wiretap costs benefits i m attempting to write a serious policy paper examining whether the proposed wiretap or clipper chip is a cost effective tool for police investigation that is ignoring concerns about government intrusions into individual privacy is the value of easy wiretaps to investigators greater than the cost to the communications industry and their customers to support this wiretap technology a rough estimate suggests that wiretaps are worth about five million dollars per year to u s law enforcement agencies in u s wiretaps led to arrests while total police expenditures of billion led to million arrests ref us statistical abstracts i m working on estimating this wiretap benefit more accurately but i d like to ask hardware experts out there to help me with estimating the costs of the new proposed wiretap technology please send me quotable citeable estimates for how many chips which would need to be made per year to keep all phones with wiretap chips how much would it cost to make each chip how much did it cost to develop this technology in the first place how much more would supporting hardware people etc cost per chip what percentage cheaper would encryption chips and support have been if private enterprise could compete to meet customer encryption needs what percentage of phone traffic would be taken up by the proposed law enforcement blocks what is the total cost of handling all phone traffic per year put another way the question i m asking is what if each police agency that wanted a particular wiretap had to pay for it being charged their share of the full social cost of forcing communication to be wiretap compatible would they choose to buy such wiretaps or would they find it more cost effective to instead investigate crimes in other ways robin hanson hanson ptolemy arc nasa gov ms nasa ames research center moffett field ca male terrace fremont ca
sci.crypt	exportability of pkzip was re rc vesselin bontchev bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de writes markowitz dockmaster ncsc mil writes it is interesting to note in this regard that permission to export pkzip s encryption scheme has twice been denied by nsa draw you own conclusions uh i m afraid that your information is slightly out of date pkware has obtained a license to export their program to the whole world except a very limited list of countries draw your own conclusions about the strength of the algorithm sorry if i was less than clear i was referring to our own efforts to receive export permission from nsa for the pkzip encryption algorithm not to any effort on the part of phil katz or pkware i should point out that the original version of this algorithm was designed by roger schlafly and that we meaning roger and myself were twice denied an export license for it the second go round was just this past fall i had no knowledge of phil s attempts in this i do not even know for sure if he choose to implement the algorithm as it was designed by roger though i believe that was at least the case for versions prior to and then there s the question of key management and even if our applications were identical there is no reason to assume the nsa would treat them that way mjm michael j markowitz vp r d markowitz dockmaster ncsc mil information security corp fax lake cook rd suite d mci deerfield il cis
sci.crypt	re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip in article r otuinndb dns nmsu edu amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor writes the plaintext is digitized voice and exists for a very short time probably in a couple inches of copper tops it s flatly not available your bug in my office can hear my voice and even digitize it but it s going to get a different bitstream i am an idiot the plaintext that s relevant is the session key if you know that you probably don t need a roomful of chips do you if you were going to brute force something interesting that d be the message stream which is sort of approximately known by say a bug in my office then your roomful of chips could get the session key which i change every morning really it s just a whole lot easier for the illicit wiretappers to stick a bug in your phone andrew molitor
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful brad optilink com brad yearwood writes if clipper comes to cellular phones along with legal proscriptions against using other cipher systems on these phones a new and potentially dangerous class of crime is created criminals who very badly want inscrutable tactical communications specifically the terrorists and drug dealers who proponents of key escrow cite as threats will be highly motivated to steal the cipher phone of a legitimate user and to kill this person or hold them hostage so discovery of compromise of the device will be delayed yow get some sleep brad you mean that people i e life is cheap terrorists drug dealing warlords who want to communicate in privacy will prefer to break into my house kill or kidnap me and steal my telephone rather than spending at k mart to buy a new phone purchasing a load of phones from the black market flea market super market talking gasp face to face walking down to any one of millions of pay phones using messengers going to excruciating effort to think of code phrases like i had a blowout on the freeway today look this system does nothing to threaten folks who know they re being wiretapped since it s trivial to find other avenues of communication they d have no reason to resort to extreme measures since a plethora of simple alternatives are easily available to them among all the legitimate reasons to damn the proposed system i don t think we need to worry about terrorist commie drug warlord assasin thugs murdering our families kicking the dog and leaving the toilet seat up just to steal a telephone the system is more like urine testing it catches some small number of very stupid people has no effect on the bad guys with at least three neurons working in unison who wish to subvert it and penalizes most heavily those who have no cause to be subject to it steve hollasch kubota pacific computer inc hollasch kpc com santa clara california
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow gtoal gtoal com graham toal writes oh i see your point i think you re wrong but if you sit back and wait to find out if i m right it ll be too late just listen very carefully for the first such and such will not be permitted on network xyz shoe to drop i ve been a very intent nren spectator of the nren for years as a commercial ip software vendor it really is my professional opinion that the nren at this point is irrelevant to private sector networking if it had been deployed five years ago it would have been a major development now however it s just an upgrade to the nsfnet and an attempt to revive the lagging use of the national supercomputer centers you could cut out the nsfnet completely and the internet would continue chugging along without a hiccup aside from a few universities long haul networking and internet connectivity have long since ceased to be under federal sponsorship or regulation at least in the usa the success of the cix commercial internet exchange is a prime example of this while our dear vp has been promoting his data superhighway the private sector has been building it without the nsfnet s restrictions to illustrate a connection from the machine on my desk to the machine your article was posted from pizzabox demon co uk involves only commercial ip providers until it hits amsterdam no nsfnet no nren no appropriate use restrictions it s even mbps t until it hits the eunet gateway qed amanda walker intercon systems corporation
sci.crypt	re facinating facts bit serial number possibly fixed s and s the only way to view this method of generating unit keys is as a back door what else can you call a key deterministically generated from the serial number to generate the unit key for a serial number n the bit value n is first padded with a fixed bit block to produce a bit block n s and s are then used as keys to triple encrypt n producing a bit block r r e d e n s s s similarly n is padded with two other bit blocks to produce n and n and two additional bit blocks r and r are computed r e d e n s s s r e d e n s s s r r and r are then concatenated together giving bits the first bits are assigned to u and the second bits to u the rest are discarded the unit key u is the xor of u and u u and u are the key parts that are separately escrowed with the two escrow agencies what happens is that the need for the escrow houses is completely eliminated or should i say the need to access the escrow houses to decrypt the data the houses will still serve a real purpose as far as generating the illusion of protection and small town cops won t be let in on the secret so they will still go through the motions of going to the escrow houses but the fact is the federal government can and will build a chip which generates the unit keys from the encrypted serial number nuff said
sci.crypt	re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only begin pgp signed message why do we hackers care about the clipper chip do we give a shit about anybody s privacy accept our own and perhaps not even our own are we so smart that we always know when we re talking to somebody who has a wiretap on their phone i find this a very disturbing view yes we do care about everyone s privacy even if they don t know it what happens if the gov t starts creating legislation such that the clipper and such technologies become the only legal encryption forms what happens when the clipper is the only type of encryption chips available to the masses sure you might have your own method of encryption but if you don t have anyone else to talk to what use is it you can t assume that everyone will be as open as you appear to be about encryption the point here is not the specific instance of the wiretap chip rather it is like having the government telling you that they want a copy of your house key safe deposit box keys etc and telling you that they wont use them unless its totally neccessary i sure wouldn t want that why should encryption be any different derek pgp key available upon request on the key server pgp public keys toxicwaste mit edu derek atkins mit electrical engineering and computer science secretary mit student information processing board sipb mit media laboratory speech research group warlord mit edu pp asel n nwh
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow quoting pla sktb demon co uk in article aohonj n sktb demon co uk you have every reason to be scared shitless take a look at the records of mccarthy hoover j edgar not the cleaner though they both excelled at sucking and nixon history does not record whether j edgar hoover was any good at sucking as for the cleaners i ll stick with my w electrolux and damn the carpet o paul crowley pdc dcs ed ac uk trust me i know what i m doing x fold a fish for jesus
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article c so hxv demon co uk graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes actually i am completely baffled by why dorothy denning has chosen to throw away her academic respectability like this it looks to me like a major career limiting move there can be very few people who know what she s been saying who take her seriously any more actually i ve been following her remarks for some time with interest i m also a member of academia and her remarks have nothing but elevate her respectability in my eyes it remains to be seen whether you are the radical fringe or i it is generally an error to assume that your beliefs are held by the majority or even a sizable minority especially when you re seeing tens nay dozens of people on usenet agreeing with you andrew molitor
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption in article apr afterlife ncsc mil rlward afterlife ncsc mil robert ward writes in article bontchev fbihh bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de writes and since the us constitutions guarantees the right to every american to bear arms why is not every american entitled as a matter of have you read the applicable part of the constitution and interpreted it in context if not please do so before posting this misinterpretation again it refers to the right of the people to organize a militia not for individuals to carry handguns grenades and assault rifles hmmm this could become a flame war very quickly the text is well regulated militia when that amendment was written and approved regulated meand armed remember all of those westerns where bounty hunters were called regulators this is now an archaic usage of the word but the original intent of the amendment was about weapons not control my dan robinson
sci.crypt	re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip in article apr ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes thousands tens of thousands do some arithmetic please skipjack has possible keys we don t yet know if all bits count anyway its looking like the keys and escrow arrangements are smoke and mirrors to cover the way the nsa can regenerate the key from the transmitted serial number g
sci.crypt	re wh proposal from police point of view in article apr news clarkson edu tuinstra sunspot ece clarkson edu soe dwight tuinstra writes it might pay to start looking at what this proposal might mean to a police agency it just might be a bad idea for them too ok suppose the ny state police want to tap a suspect s phone they need a warrant just like the old days but unlike the old days they now need to a get two federal agencies to give them the two parts of the key now what happens if there s a tiff between the two escrow houses posession release of keys becomes a political bargaining chit while i think it is unrealistic to suppose that the federal agencies will fail to promptly comply with a court order there is still a good point here local law enforcement will be unable to perform a wiretap without bringing in federal agencies based on the possibly incomplete understanding of the system quoted from d denning only the fbi will be able to decrypt the system key encryption layer which seems to be needed even to identify what escrowed keys to request this moves a great deal of law enforcement power to the federal level the reason i like this point is that it may sway or even persuade people who don t generally line up with the civil liberties crowd a national police force is opposed by people from a broad range of political viewpoints olson umbc edu
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more for that matter it shouldn t be that difficult to design a black box that gives off emr similar to a monitor with gibberish on the screen
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes actually i am completely baffled by why dorothy denning has chosen to throw away her academic respectability like this it looks to me like a major career limiting move there can be very few people who know what she s been saying who take her seriously any more i m not sure it is a major limiting move in the academic circles i ve seen arguing for increased government intervention and management is almost always a plus not the least because it usually means more high paying jobs for academics as advisors also consider that it looks like denning has some decent nsa government connections which is always a plus for an academic institute that wants more government funding and work tossed their way despicable yes career limiting well the publicity probably outweighs the drawbacks and there are a whole bunch of people who think the whole thing is just peachy keen if it s only going to be used against drug dealers child pornographers and terrorists well it must be good p truth is hard to find and harder to obscure
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful criminals who very badly want inscrutable tactical communications specifically the terrorists and drug dealers who proponents of key escrow cite as threats will be highly motivated to steal the cipher phone of a legitimate user and to kill this person or hold them hostage so discovery of compromise of the device will be delayed why doing it in such a rough manner it is much more professional to steal the chip from the phone and even to replace it with a pin compatible do nothing chip that does not encrypt at all chances are that the victim will not notice anything especially if it is done professionally assuming that the bad guys can easily obtain substitute chips which don t cause any noticeable effect to either the user or the person at the other end of the line if there is any significant difficulty to obtaining such chips some of the criminals will decide to fall back on the murder kidnap method once a suitable collection of devices is stolen criminals can communicate with impunity assuming the cipher system carries no trapdoors apart from key escrow until and unless the compromise is discovered by some other means no because the feds will still be able to decrypt the conversations true they ll blame the wrong guys but nevertheless one cannot say something like the drugs arrive tommorrow on the ship terminus when the feds are listening even if they cannot identify who the speaker is this assumes that the feds are tapping clipper phones belonging to ordinary citizens getting such a phone is the whole point of the crime under discussion to be sure i wouldn t put it past them but raising the possibility of such crime has the benefit of forcing the feds to either fess up about such intentions in advance or state that using clipper exposes the user to an additional criminal threat g no the criminals will just use some secure encryption the new proposal does not stop criminals it ensures that the government will be able to wiretap the average citizen and stops the casual snooper to me it also clearly looks as a step towards outlawing any other strong encryption devices agreed
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow pdc dcs ed ac uk paul crowley writes as for the cleaners i ll stick with my w electrolux and damn the carpet nah nothing sucks like a vax amanda walker intercon systems corporation
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more i wonder if she landed such a fat fee from cooperation with the nsa in the design and propoganda stages that she doesn t care any more which is to say is the nsa totally perfidious or does it at least have the redeeming virtue of taking care of its own g
sci.crypt	re estimating wiretap costs benefits in article apr kronos arc nasa gov hanson kronos arc nasa gov robin hanson writes i m attempting to write a serious policy paper examining whether the proposed wiretap or clipper chip is a cost effective tool for police investigation that is ignoring concerns about government intrusions into individual privacy is the value of easy wiretaps to investigators greater than the cost to the communications industry and their customers to support this wiretap technology a rough estimate suggests that wiretaps are worth about five million dollars per year to u s law enforcement agencies in u s wiretaps led to arrests while total police expenditures of billion led to million arrests ref us statistical abstracts i m working on estimating this wiretap benefit more accurately but i d like to ask hardware experts out there to help me with estimating the costs of the new proposed wiretap technology please send me quotable citeable estimates for how many chips which would need to be made per year to keep all phones with wiretap chips how much would it cost to make each chip how much did it cost to develop this technology in the first place how much more would supporting hardware people etc cost per chip what percentage cheaper would encryption chips and support have been if private enterprise could compete to meet customer encryption needs what percentage of phone traffic would be taken up by the proposed law enforcement blocks what is the total cost of handling all phone traffic per year put another way the question i m asking is what if each police agency that wanted a particular wiretap had to pay for it being charged their share of the full social cost of forcing communication to be wiretap compatible would they choose to buy such wiretaps or would they find it more cost effective to instead investigate crimes in other ways robin hanson hanson ptolemy arc nasa gov ms nasa ames research center moffett field ca male terrace fremont ca first what the fuck is nasa doing wasting my tax dollars doing policy papers on stuff far outside of their purvew mission second this isn t a problem of economics this is a problem of the incremental accumulation of police state powers by our government how exactly do you put a price on the loss of freedom of a society maybe use the dollars life lost calculations for the extra people killed by the gov the pain and suffering cases for those tortured the dollars life lost caused by the inevitable collapse of the economy and all the secondary effects of diseases diet etc plus the inevitable collapse of the economy as the gov controls it becomes corrupt etc do us a favor resign rather than right this paper for nasa go do useful work for the society lew lew glendenning rlglende netcom com perspective is worth iq points niels bohr or somebody like that
sci.crypt	pseudo random character generators large state here are four pseudo random character generators based on irreducible trinomials each contains separate trinomials one of which is selected on initialization there are distinct trinomials between the prcgs the prcgs are initialized with a bit seed and a bit trinomial selector i would like to get comments on these by anyone who is interested enough to look them over please email because our news is on the fritz note that this was posted via email peter k boucher boucher csl sri com clip clip
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful in article optilink com brad optilink com brad yearwood writes finally because there is essentially no possibility of intercepting in realtime the scrutable content of communications between stolen instruments there will exist strong motivation to record and archive all communications in the network for ex post facto scrutiny once some criminal act is discovered and the instruments involved have been identified it seems likely to me that that a large subset of encrypted communications would be archived to tape so they could be read if sometime in the future probable cause arises and a warrant is obtained i can even imagine this being found legal and constitutional since nothing is actually listened to until a valid warrant is issued and the keys are obtained imagine archiving all pay phone conversations so if someone turns out to be a drug dealer you can listen to all their past drug deals and archive calls to from suspected mafia members potential terrorists radicals etc imagine the convenience for the police of being able to get a warrant now and listening to all the calls the world trade center bombers made in the past year since archiving would be such a powerful tool and so easy to do why wouldn t it happen ken shirriff shirriff sprite berkeley edu
sci.crypt	a little political philosophy worth reading read this through once or twice then replace prince with government or president as appropriate and read it again from chapter xx of the prince by n macchiavelli as translated by daniel donno in order to keep their lands secure some princes have disarmed their subjects others have prompted division within the cities they have subjugated some have nurtured animosities against themselves others have sought to win the approval of those they initially distrusted some have erected fortresses others have destroyed them now although it is impossible to set down definite judgements on all of these measures without considering the particular circumstances of the states where they may be employed i shall nevertheless discuss them in such broad terms as the subject itself will allow to begin with there has never been a case of a new prince disarming his subjects indeed whenever he found them disarmed he proceeded to arm them for by arming your subjects you make their arms your own those among them who are suspicious become loyal while those who are already loyal remain so and from subjects they are transformed into partisans though you cannot arm them all nonetheless you increase your safety among those you leave unarmed by extending privileges to those you arm your different treatment of the two categories will make the latter feel obligated to you while the former will consider it proper thoat those who assume added duties and dangers should receive advantages when you disarm your subjects however you offend them by showing that either from cowardliness or from lack of faith you distrust them and either conclusion will induce them to hate you moreover since it is impossible for you to remain unarmed you would have to resort to mercenaries whose limitations have already been discussed even if such troops were good however they could never be good enough to defend you from powerful enemies and doubtful subjects therefore as i have said a new prince in a newly acquired state has always taken measures to arm his subjects and history is full of examples proving that this is so but when a prince takes posession of a new state which he annexes as an addition to his original domain then he must disarm all the subjects of the new state except those who helped him to acquire it and these as time and occasion permit he must seek to render soft and weak he must arrange matters in such a way that the arms of the entire state will be in the hands of soldiers who are native to his original domain and since the subject demands it i will not fail to remind any prince who has acquired a new state by the aid of its inhabitants that he soundly consider what induced them to assist him if the reason is not natural affection for him but rather dissatisfaction with the former government he will find it extremely difficult to keep them friendly for it will be impossible to please them if he will carefully think the matter through in the light of examples drawn from ancient and modern affairs he will understand why it is much easier to win the favor of those who were happy with their former government and hence were his enemies than to keep the favor of those who out of dissatisfaction with the former rule helped him to replace it
sci.crypt	re how large are commercial keys in article apr ee eng ohio state edu butzerd maumee eng ohio state edu dane c butzer writes finally can anyone even concieve of a time place where bit keys aren t sufficient i certainly can t even at a trillion keys a second it would take about billion years to search just one billionth of that keys space it depends on the attack adding a bit to the key doubles the amount of work to be done in a straight brute force attack where you try every single possible key until one works processing and storage requirements for this kind of attack on a bit key seem like they ought to make it effectively impossible however there may be other attacks whose difficulty is for example proportional to say sqrt n or some such also a long key does you little good if there is a way to incrementally guess a little of the key at a time thanks dane john
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article rdippold qualcom rdippold qualcomm com ron asbestos dippold writes geoff ficus cs ucla edu geoffrey kuenning writes bullshit the bush administration and the career gestapo were responsible for this horror and the careerists presented it to the new presidency as a fait accompli that doesn t excuse clinton and gore from criticism for being so stupid as to go for it but let s lay the body at the proper door to start with the final stages of denial i can hardly imagine what the result would have been if the clinton administration had actually supported this plan instead of merely acquiescing with repugnance as they ve so obviously doing i don t believe the chip originated with the clinton administration either but the clinton administration has embraced it and brought it to fruition the date i have for this is note clinton s statements about encryption in the rd paragraph i guess this statement doesen t contradict what you said though cut here washington upi the war on drugs is about to get a fresh start president clinton told delegates to the national federation of police commisioners convention in washington in the first speech on the drug issue since his innaugural clinton said that his planned escalation of the drug war would make everything so far seem so half hearted that for all practical purposes this war is only beginning now he repeatedly emphasized his view that regardless of what has been tried or who has tried it or how long they ve been trying it this is day one to me the audience at the convention whose theme is how do we spell fiscal relief f o r f e i t u r e interrupted clinton frequently with applause clinton s program presented in the speech follows the outline given in his campaign position papers a cabinet level drug czar and boot camps for first time youthful offenders he did however cover in more detail his plans for improved enforcement methods this year s crime bill will have teeth not bare gums clinton said in particular his administration will place strict controls on data formats and protocols and require the registration of so called cryptographic keys in the hope of denying drug dealers the ability to communicate in secret clinton said the approach could be used for crackdowns on other forms of underground economic activity such as the deficit causing tax evaders who live in luxury at the expense of our grandchildren clinton expressed optimism that the drug war can be won because even though not everyone voted for bill clinton last november everyone did vote for a candidate who shares my sense of urgency about fighting the drug menace the advocates of legalization the advocates of surrender may be very good at making noise clinton said but when the american people cast their ballots it only proved what i knew all along that the advocates of surrender are nothing more than a microscopic fringe
sci.crypt	re the escrow database in article tcmayc rs n lz netcom com tcmay netcom com timothy c may writes after the waco massacre and the big brother wiretap chip any tactic is fair this is pernicious nonsense david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re would clipper make a good cover for other encryption method in article apr eff org kadie eff org carl m kadie writes so don t just think of replacements for clipper also think of front ends this only makes sense if the government prohibits alternative non escrowed encryption schemes otherwise why not just use the front end without clipper david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow begin pgp signed message in message aa pizzabox demon co uk you write the cops feds do not need to be able to get hold of your private key to listen in to cellular conversations encryption is not end to end but cellphone to base station that was true for the uk paul but i m fairly sure they re talking about building end to end encryption phones out of this chip it s not for cellular though it certainly could be used there in the way you suggest i d lost the white house s deathless prose when i posted that s what happens when you read news at home when you re rat arsed but i did have a bunch of follow ups going on about cellular cordless comms the original article has reappeared so the president today announced a new initiative that will bring the federal government together with industry in a voluntary program to improve the security and privacy of telephone communications while meeting the legitimate needs of law enforcement hmm telephone communications could indeed include end to end encryption on ordinary landlines the initiative will involve the creation of new products to accelerate the development and use of advanced and secure telecommunications networks and wireless communications links but the next paragraph says telecoms networks and wireless communications links ok it s far from clear exactly what cripple what an apposite anagram will be applied to but the reason joe public wants secure comms is to stop people listening in to his cellular or cordless phones and he wouldn t even be bothered about that were it not for wingnut and squidqy s misfortunes yes cripple might be for end to end encyption dropping to clear when the other end doesn t have cripple but then a cordless to ordinary conversation would be in clear leaving the cordless end just as vulnerable as at present nope i suspect that cripple will only be used on radio links ok it s possible telecommunications networks could mean ordinary phone lines but i m betting it means the microwave links used by the telcos my apologies if i m wrong particularly if the turgid press release makes it clear that i m wrong and i missed it but as far as i can see it was full of obfuscation and anyone expecting end to end encryption is in for a surprise imho btw graham i ve posted questions to alt security pgp and not seen any replies followups from outside europe how about you have i made it into everyone s kill file or is there some problem paul
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption in article apr afterlife ncsc mil rlward afterlife ncsc mil robert ward writes in article bontchev fbihh bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de writes and since the us constitutions guarantees the right to every american to bear arms why is not every american entitled as a matter of have you read the applicable part of the constitution and interpreted it in context if not please do so before posting this misinterpretation again it refers to the right of the people to organize a militia not for individuals to carry handguns grenades and assault rifles read it again yourself then re apply the admonition you gave to the previous poster to yourself as well the first clause is not a condition it is a reason for explicitly supporting the right which exists militia or not that the people have a right to keep and bear arms this is not a right granted by the constitution it is a right presumed to exist by default the constitution mentioning a right is to prevent the government from removing that right by stating very clearly the government shall not infringe mess with block limit that right remember the constitution is a bunch of negative things things the government cannot do all rights etc not epxressly given to the government go to the states and the people the same people the other amendments in the bill of rights talk about since i am sure you will summarily reject my interpretation i am appending a linguistic analysis by one far more expert than myself and you i suspect i am sure you will find his qualifications adequate if that isn t enough i can send you the senate subcommitee to the judiciary on the constitution report on the same thing there are some things in there that big brother types like biden etc must have really had to swallow hard to admit i think you will find that people that seriously study the constitution and state what it means will say the same thing those who come up with new improved meanings are those who are trying to subvert the constitution for a given agenda like clinton and his clinton cripple gun control people control and control control and the whole nasty mess please tell us how this person is in error won t you and please back it up with some proof since i am backing my assertion up with independent proof and have a bunch more i can provide note followups set to talk politics guns begin included article the unabridged second amendment by j neil schulman if you wanted to know all about the big bang you d ring up carl sagan right and if you wanted to know about desert warfare the man to call would be norman schwarzkopf no question about it but who would you call if you wanted the top expert on american usage to tell you the meaning of the second amendment to the united states constitution that was the question i asked a c brocki editorial coordinator of the los angeles unified school district and formerly senior editor at houghton mifflin publishers who himself had been recommended to me as the foremost expert on english usage in the los angeles school system mr brocki told me to get in touch with roy copperud a retired professor journalism at the university of southern california and the author of american usage and style the consensus a little research lent support to brocki s opinion of professor copperud s expertise roy copperud was a newspaper writer on major dailies for over three decades before embarking on a a distinguished year career teaching journalism at usc since copperud has been writing a column dealing with the professional aspects of journalism for editor and publisher a weekly magazine focusing on the journalism field he s on the usage panel of the american heritage dictionary and merriam webster s usage dictionary frequently cites him as an expert copperud s fifth book on usage american usage and style the consensus has been in continuous print from van nostrand reinhold since and is the winner of the association of american publisher s humanities award that sounds like an expert to me after a brief telephone call to professor copperud in which i introduced myself but did not give him any indication of why i was interested i sent the following letter i am writing you to ask you for your professional opinion as an expert in english usage to analyze the text of the second amendment to the united states constitution and extract the intent from the text the text of the second amendment is a well regulated militia being necessary for the security of a free state the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed the debate over this amendment has been whether the first part of the sentence a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state is a restrictive clause or a subordinate clause with respect to the independent clause containing the subject of the sentence the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed i would request that your analysis of this sentence not take into consideration issues of political impact or public policy but be restricted entirely to a linguistic analysis of its meaning and intent further since your professional analysis will likely become part of litigation regarding the consequences of the second amendment i ask that whatever analysis you make be a professional opinion that you would be willing to stand behind with your reputation and even be willing to testify under oath to support if necessary my letter framed several questions about the test of the second amendment then concluded i realize that i am asking you to take on a major responsibility and task with this letter i am doing so because as a citizen i believe it is vitally important to extract the actual meaning of the second amendment while i ask that your analysis not be affected by the political importance of its results i ask that you do this because of that importance after several more letters and phone calls in which we discussed terms for his doing such an analysis but in which we never discussed either of our opinions regarding the second amendment gun control or any other political subject professor copperud sent me the follow analysis into which i have inserted my questions for the sake of clarity copperud the words a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state contrary to the interpretation cited in your letter of july constitutes a present participle rather than a clause it is used as an adjective modifying militia which is followed by the main clause of the sentence subject the right verb shall the to keep and bear arms is asserted as an essential for maintaining a militia in reply to your numbered questions schulman can the sentence be interpreted to grant the right to keep and bear arms solely to a well regulated militia copperud the sentence does not restrict the right to keep and bear arms nor does it state or imply possession of the right elsewhere or by others than the people it simply makes a positive statement with respect to a right of the people schulman is the right of the people to keep and bear arms granted by the words of the second amendment or does the second amendment assume a preexisting right of the people to keep and bear arms and merely state that such right shall not be infringed copperud the right is not granted by the amendment its existence is assumed the thrust of the sentence is that the right shall be preserved inviolate for the sake of ensuring a militia schulman is the right of the people to keep and bear arms conditioned upon whether or not a well regulated militia is in fact necessary to the security of a free state and if that condition is not existing is the statement the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed null and void copperud no such condition is expressed or implied the right to keep and bear arms is not said by the amendment to depend on the existence of a militia no condition is stated or implied as to the relation of the right to keep and bear arms and to the necessity of a well regulated militia as a requisite to the security of a free state the right to keep and bear arms is deemed unconditional by the entire sentence schulman does the clause a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state grant a right to the government to place conditions on the right of the people to keep and bear arms or is such right deemed unconditional by the meaning of the entire sentence copperud the right is assumed to exist and to be unconditional as previously stated it is invoked here specifically for the sake of the militia schulman which of the following does the phrase well regulated militia mean well equipped well organized well drilled well educated or subject to regulations of a superior authority copperud the phrase means subject to regulations of a superior authority this accords with the desire of the writers for civilian control over the military schulman if at all possible i would ask you to take account the changed meanings of words or usage since that sentence was written years ago but not take into account historical interpretations of the intents of the authors unless those issues can be clearly separated copperud to the best of my knowledge there has been no change in the meaning of words or in usage that would affect the meaning of the amendment if it were written today it might be put since a well regulated militia is necessary tot he security of a free state the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be abridged schulman as a scientific control on this analysis i would also appreciate it if you could compare your analysis of the text of the second amendment to the following sentence a well schooled electorate being necessary to the security of a free state the right of the people to keep and read books shall not be infringed my questions for the usage analysis of this sentence would be is the grammatical structure and usage of this sentence and the way the words modify each other identical to the second amendment s sentence and could this sentence be interpreted to restrict the right of the people to keep and read books only to a well educated electorate for example registered voters with a high school diploma copperud your scientific control sentence precisely parallels the amendment in grammatical structure there is nothing in your sentence that either indicates or implies the possibility of a restricted interpretation professor copperud had only one additional comment which he placed in his cover letter with well known human curiosity i made some speculative efforts to decide how the material might be used but was unable to reach any conclusion so now we have been told by one of the top experts on american usage what many knew all along the constitution of the united states unconditionally protects the people s right to keep and bear arms forbidding all governments formed under the constitution from abridging that right as i write this the attempted coup against constitutional government in the soviet union has failed apparently because the will of the people in that part of the world to be free from capricious tyranny is stronger than the old guard s desire to maintain a monopoly on dictatorial power and here in the united states elected lawmakers judges and appointed officials who are pledged to defend the constitution of the united states ignore marginalize or prevaricate about the second amendment routinely american citizens are put in american prisons for carrying arms owning arms of forbidden sorts or failing to satisfy bureaucratic requirements regarding the owning and carrying of firearms all of which is an abridgement of the unconditional right of the people to keep and bear arms guaranteed by the constitution and even the american civil liberties union aclu staunch defender of the rest of the bill of rights stands by and does nothing it seems it is up to those who believe in the right to keep and bear arms to preserve that right no one else will no one else can will we beg our elected representatives not to take away our rights and continue regarding them as representing us if they do will we continue obeying judges who decide that the second amendment doesn t mean what it says it means but means whatever they say it means in their orwellian doublespeak or will be simply keep and bear the arms of our choice as the constitution of the united states promises us we can and pledge that we will defend that promise with our lives our fortuned and our sacred honor c by the new gun week and second amendment foundation informational reproduction of the entire article is hereby authorized provided the author the new gun week and second amendment foundation are credited all other rights reserved about the author j neil schulman is the award winning author of novels endorsed by anthony burgess and nobel economist milton friedman and writer of the cbs twilight zone episode in which a time traveling historian prevents the jfk assassination he s also the founder and president of softserv publishing the first publishing company to distribute paperless books via personal computers and modems most recently schulman has founded the committee to enforce the second amendment cesa through which he intends to see the individual s right to keep and bear arms recognized as a constitutional protection equal to those afforded in the first fourth fifth ninth and fourteenth amendments end included article can you still honestly say the second is a state run militia only right pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption in article bontchev fbihh bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de writes rlward afterlife ncsc mil robert ward writes and since the us constitutions guarantees the right to every american to bear arms why is not every american entitled as a matter of have you read the applicable part of the constitution and interpreted it in context yes btw the appropriate amendments were posted here some time ago if not please do so before posting this misinterpretation again it refers to the right of the people to organize a militia not for individual to carry handguns grenades and assault rifles it s ok it s ok just a month ago i expressed my belief that the right to have a means to shoot your neighbor is not that much necessary to ensure a people s right to be free and got flamed by lots of american gun supporters so i thought that never mind the new cripple chip is a purely american problem so deal with the mess yourselves i just wanted to share with you a bit of my experience of living years under a totalitarian regime i m bulgarian because i thought that it might be useful to you oh well i think your experiences under the bulgarian regime are highly relevant we have too many people with their heads in the sand saying it cannot happen here as our constitutional rights are being trashed every day because the government justifies doing some end run around the protections by a crisis requiring drastic action it is most likely that in the future possession of secure encryption tools will be regarded as possession of terrorist and drug dealers tools and be some serious fedaral felony just like common tools are burgular tools if the police say so common computer programs even computers themselves are now hackers tools and will become terrorist tools bet on it the insights of someone who has lived throught this are very important if the us goes the way of the old soviet union and its client states as far as individual rights privacy and overall freedom are concerned the rest of the world remember new world order will not be far behind only a few years please keep posting anything you find that is deficient or that threatens ones rights in this thing for example a conversation between a suspect and a lawyer will no longer be private from big brother eavesdropping political dissent allready is very dangerous in this country all it takes is the government to decide that enough people will take one seriously then one becomes guilty of plotting to overthrow the government by illegal means the phrase illegal means is defined as whatever the government wants it to be defined as couple this with clinton s pressing for a smart national id card an internal passport with the added wrinkle that anything about you and your past can be put on it and you can only take the government s word as to what is really on it since they will be the only ones with the means to completely read and reprogram the thing isn t that nice while the feds can bust into one s safe without the keys the owner knows his safe has been broken into when they break into your secure phone conversations or other stored transmitted data in the near future you have no way of knowing so accountability as to the legalities has gone out the window just like a safe if they have a legal cause they can get the keys from the suspect just like they can get the keys to a safe or the combination from the suspect same with encryption record everything get the warrants then decode it with the keys obtained from the suspect this clinton cripple along with its natural extensions will make any priviliged communications between client and lawyer and any meaningful political dissent virtually impossible which is the general idea any propeganda about its being secure and the safeguards and all of that are just that propeganda to reassure people so they will by into this monstrosity don t be suckered big brother is listening regards vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center university of hamburg tel fax fachbereich informatik agn pgp public key available on request vogt koelln strasse rm c e mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de d hamburg germany pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien
sci.crypt	re an open letter to mr clinton in article bontchev fbihh bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de writes strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes here s a simple way to convert the clipper proposal to an unexceptionable one make it voluntary as usually you are not reading the proposal does say that it is a voluntary program this doesn t make it more desirable though that is you get high quality secure nsa classified technology if you agree to escrow your key otherwise you are on your own secure how do you know because nsa is trying to make you believe it trust us yeah right otherwise you are on your own how do you know that tomorrow they will not outlaw encrypring devices that don t use their technology because they are promising you gee they are not doing even that read the proposal again one minor nitpick it is not a proposal it is a decision from their point of view it is a done deal the chips are being manufactured it obviously has been budgeted the whole thing that is what is so upsetting this was all done in secret because they didn t want the people to know what was going on until it is too late otherwise i agree with you percent how come it always takes someone who has lived under the eastern bloc to remind us about how precious and fragile our liberties are please keep up the good work hopefully you will wake someone up regards vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center university of hamburg tel fax fachbereich informatik agn pgp public key available on request vogt koelln strasse rm c e mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de d hamburg germany pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien
sci.crypt	re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only in article c rrtd gz agora rain com jhart agora rain com jim hart writes what we need is a true privacy chip for example a real time voice encryption rsa silicon compile it and spit out asic put this chip on the market as a de facto standard for international business diplomats and private communications if the u s bans it we make it somewhere else and import it the japanese german dutch taiwanese korean etc electronics companies don t want the nsa spying on them u s workers lose more jobs to government fascist stupidity some countries have laws about importing crypto gear i believe the u s does without a license the above scheme won t work at least not legally in such countries including at least france and the u s david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re would clipper make a good cover for other encryption method in article eachus apr spectre mitre org eachus spectre mitre org robert i eachus writes but if you are making custom equipment in any case why not just roll your own clipper implementation and report the wrong keys to the escrow agency tells us who is going to be in the chip business if this thing goes through nsa and those with something to hide from nsa this won t work if there is a checksum on the keys you don t know about neither will registering a clipper chip and then substituting a counterfeit one if the serial number contains a checksum chances are the government has thought of this and just anyone won t be permitted access to enough of the internals to make a fake clipper chip chances are that the government has classified some details of the internals at a very high level and manufacturers are required to observe security safeguards and clearances corresponding to that level while not perfect it would prevent joe hacker from rolling his own spoofing chip since not many counterfeiters can survive a background investigation some of the more notorious self styled dissidents here for example have already got their heads so high above the tall grass that they d have little chance of getting a clearance of course it s not impossible that someone do this but probably extremely difficult chances are there will also be very heavy criminal penalties for phony clipper chips on some national security classified info grounds or other thus making the game not worth the candle david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only in article warlord apr deathtongue mit edu warlord mit edu derek atkins writes the point here is not the specific instance of the wiretap chip rather it is like having the government telling you that they want a copy of your house key safe deposit box keys etc and telling you that they wont use them unless its totally neccessary i sure wouldn t want that why should encryption be any different actually the govrnment is telling you that if you want to use their product the manufacturer actually better yet some trusted pair of escrow agencies has to have the key most of us already are in this situation our car makers have keys to our cars or can get them quickly from the vin number and i have no doubt that if presented with a court order they d surrender copies to the government chances are that many locksmiths have the code numbers for house locks they ve installed and in an emergency can cut keys thus they d also provide such keys to the government pursuant to a court order the state has no difficulty gaining access to your safe deposit box if they have a court order bad analogy this is not to argue for or against the proposal but rather better distinctions are required in thinking about it than house key safe deposit keys etc david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	organized lobbying for cryptography in article apr silverton berkeley edu djb silverton berkeley edu d j bernstein writes i want to see an organization which will combat such statements encryption does not threaten the public safety any more than ski masks do every american is entitled to use strong encryption which ensures his own privacy and is not crippled by a key escrow system i guess i m looking for a league for cryptographic freedom or a national cryptography association an excellent idea to what extent does the eff serve this purpose is a new organization necessary does it already exist while i don t know the full scope of the activities of the eff from what little i ve seen i think it would be better to lobby for strong cryptography through a distinct organization the eff has been associated with efforts to prevent the banning of sex and pictures newsgroups at various universities horror stories about the contents of those groups e g exploitative pictures of possibly underaged models have already surfaced in the press the white house bulletin already raised the specter of drug dealing and terrorism which is only one step removed from the old crypto wielding child molester argument an eff lobbying effort for cryptography would be too easily derailed by the connection to child pornography and the like similarly lpf is connected with stallman and his gnu project in light of say the gnu manifesto this means that in a public debate it stands to be labelled as communist anarchist hackers radical etc i don t know about cpsr but if it is an offshoot of physicians for social responsibility best known for helen caldicott and her hysterical antinuclear lobbying then it probably also carries unwelcome political baggage perhaps for practical reasons a lobbying organization for cryptography would best be formed under the umbrella of eff or some other existing group but its charter should then be distinct independent and limited to advocacy for the right to cryptography to reiterate dan bernstein s question does any suitable organization exist if not what are you going to do about it having mentioned the possible dangers of unwelcome political associations i would be remiss not to suggest something in the opposite direction gathering the support of the nra by emphasizing the rkba side of the issue as well as the first amendment side tal kubo math harvard edu
sci.crypt	re do we need the clipper for cheap security gtoal gtoal com graham toal writes in the uk it s impossible to get approval to attach any crypto device to the phone network anything that plugs in to our bt phone sockets must be approved for some reason crypto devices just never are whats the difference between a v bis modem and a v bis modem i m not being entirely silly here what i m pointing out is that the modems that they have already approved for data transmission will work just fine to transmit scrambled vocoded voice perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
sci.crypt	re hard drive security for fbi targets in article apr yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes i m not a lawyer so correct me if i m wrong but doing that could be considered obstruction of justice which could land you in prison for quite a while the thing that s great about the secret key is it is idea encrypted so even if the fbi do get the key they re sol unless they know the magic word if they try to force you to give them your pass phrase just say oops i forgot since the burden of proof is still on the prosecution in this country if you keep your mouth shut how can they prove that you didn t forget your pass phrase ok doug is right it would be obstruction of justice blah blah blah but saying i forgot is a lie which is just as bad from a moral point of view if you think lawfulness is a good in and of itself which admittedly most people do not but there s an even better way out of this provided the government is prosecuting you criminally you can probably plead the fifth amendmeent and thus legally avoid revealing your key the government cannot demand information from a criminal defendant which may tend to incriminate that defendant though this has never been applied in the cryptography context at least as far as i can tell it seems an obvious application to me this may be a common suggestion in this group but if it s not i m new here i d love to hear what people have to say about it since i don t really read this group and since the subject matter is more legal than cryptoid maybe misc legal computing would be an appropriate place steve steve kramarsky university of chicago law school steve faerie chi il us or smk quads uchicago edu all i did was kiss a girl jake the night before his hanging
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article r r ninnebn dns nmsu edu amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor writes in article c so hxv demon co uk graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes actually i am completely baffled by why dorothy denning has chosen to throw away her academic respectability like this actually i ve been following her remarks for some time with interest i m also a member of academia and her remarks have nothing but elevate her respectability in my eyes it remains to be seen whether you are the radical fringe or i it is generally an error to assume that your beliefs are held by the majority or even a sizable minority especially when you re seeing tens nay dozens of people on usenet agreeing with you the people on usenet are clearly a special bunch we live the net which is the future of our culture usenetters have rapid electronic access to information society in general must depend on cnn i can only hope we can make this information accessable by the public before the radical fringe which is the majority destroys the fabric of this country freedom is never easily won thomas
sci.crypt	re keeping your mouth shut was hard drive security in article apr qualcomm com karn servo qualcomm com phil karn writes i say in theory because in another case a woman was held in contempt for refusing to reveal the location of her child even after taking the th in this case the woman was suspected of having murdered the kid so taking the th wasn t surprising sure so she was probably guilty but that s not good enough in our system you re not supposed to be able to force a suspect to confess to a crime no matter how strongly you think they re guilty you have to develop your evidence independently doing otherwise might catch a few more crooks but only at the cost of turning the clock back to the middle ages when confessions were routinely tortured out of suspects both guilty and innocent ok i should have read the thread before posting my own i would just add to phil s very infomative discussion the following caveat the fifth amendment applies only in crinial cases nor shall any person be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself thus if the father sued for custody of the children the case would be civil and the defendant mother would not have fifth amendment protection oddly enough her refusal to give information in a civil case can lead to criminal contempt charges thus landing her in jail the interesting part of all this is that in a murder trial the woman can plead the fifth as to the location of the child this is routine a computer crime prosecution thus would seem to be fertile ground for this kind of defense where a suit by a party injured by hackers would not if i am accused for example of sending encrypted kiddie porn over the nets the fifth should protect my key if i am accused of sending copyrighted material however it proabably will not copyright infringement not being a crime in the technical sense the really tricky question is say i do both naughty boy that i am can the government use the information gained in the civil trial ie my key to gain access to my files for use in the criminal prosecution the answer should certainly be no but lord only knows how this would work out steve steve kramarsky university of chicago law school steve faerie chi il us or smk quads uchicago edu all i did was kiss a girl jake the night before his hanging
sci.crypt	re don t fight clipper chip subvert or replace it marc thibault marc tanda isis org writes the jester writes proof windows is a virus it is very widespread it eats up your disk space it slows down your computer it takes control over your computer it performs disk access at random times it displays silly messages on your screen it randomly crashes the computer vesselin this sounds like a version unix solaris as someone who just lived through a switch from sunos x x to solaris i ll heartily agree with this obcrypt one of my main gripes with solaris is its braindead mailx which is almost enough like mail to get you hoping but crashes horribly when you try to do anything useful with it like use pgp capable sendmail replacements jason i stood up on my van i yelled excuse me sir ain t nothing wrong with this country that a few plastic explosives won t cure steve taylor i blew up the clinic real good steiner jupiter cse utoledo edu
sci.crypt	re fifth amendment and passwords in article apr sugra uucp ken sugra uucp kenneth ng writes in article apr linus mitre org ptrei bistromath mitre org peter trei writes judge i grant you immunity from whatever may be learned from the key itself you the keyphrase is i confess to deliberately evading copyright the file encoded with this keyphrase contains illegal scans of copyrighted peanuts strips can we use murder instead of copyright violation just to keep things straight the th applies only to criminal cases which copyright infringements are not they are civil steve p s i m sorry to waste bandwidth on a quibble i just don t want anyone to get confused i think a bunch of kiddie porn gifs make a better test case than a bunch of peanuts strips and that is criminal both in posession and distribution steve kramarsky university of chicago law school steve faerie chi il us or smk quads uchicago edu all i did was kiss a girl jake the night before his hanging
sci.crypt	re organized lobbying for cryptography kubo zariski harvard edu tal kubo writes the eff has been associated with efforts to prevent the banning of sex and pictures newsgroups at various universities so what justices william brennan thurgood marshall john paul stevens and byron white are associated with a plurality supreme court decision that prevented the removal of anti american anti christian anti semitic and just plain filthy books from a public high school library board of education v pico does this mean that they could no longer defend free expression and privacy carl carl kadie i do not represent any organization this is just me kadie cs uiuc edu
sci.crypt	re estimating wiretap costs benefits rlglende netcom com robert lewis glendenning writes in article apr kronos arc nasa gov hanson kronos arc nasa gov robin hanson writes i m attempting to write a serious policy paper examining whether the proposed wiretap or clipper chip is a cost effective tool for police investigation that is ignoring concerns about government intrusions into individual privacy is the value of easy wiretaps to investigators greater than the cost to the communications industry and their customers to support this wiretap technology first what the fuck is nasa doing wasting my tax dollars doing policy papers on stuff far outside of their purvew mission do us a favor resign rather than right this paper for nasa go do useful work for the society whew take it easy on the guy maybe he s going to do this in his spare time maybe he s going to do this to see how much a wiretap really costs maybe he s going to do this so he can add to the opposition to clipper i don t know fully why he might do this but maybe we shouldn t start flaming at the drop of a hat james holthaus james holthaus uiowa edu government is an association of men who do violence to the rest of us leo tolstoy pgp public key available on request or from key server
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption mathew mathew mantis co uk writes bena dec cs monash edu au ben aveling writes don t forget you are in the country that wouldn t let the russians buy apple ii s because of security concerns that s nothing they wouldn t let the british buy inmos transputer systems because of security concerns and we designed the damn things funny we had plenty of them in bulgaria regardless of the embargo so much for export controls regards vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center university of hamburg tel fax fachbereich informatik agn pgp public key available on request vogt koelln strasse rm c e mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de d hamburg germany
sci.crypt	cryptology in the world what is the status of cruptology for private citizens throughout the world or more clearly is there a listing of countries and their policies on citizens encrypting electronic data i m curious how the europeans handle this for instance james holthaus james holthaus uiowa edu government is an association of men who do violence to the rest of us leo tolstoy pgp public key available on request or from key server
sci.crypt	re organized lobbying for cryptography in article c tbpd lt cs uiuc edu kadie cs uiuc edu carl m kadie writes the eff has been associated with efforts to prevent the banning of sex and pictures newsgroups at various universities so what justices william brennan thurgood marshall john paul stevens and byron white are associated with it means that the eff s public stance is complicated with issues irrelevant to the encryption issue per se there may well be people who care about the encryption issue who don t care to associate themselves with the network erotica issue or may even disagree with the eff s position ending up with pallets of baggage to drag around is a frequent problem with permanent organizations eff is no exception tarl
sci.crypt	looking for ms dos crypto programs i am a new reader of sci crypt i would like to obtain a copy of a public domain program that can encrypt files preferably using des that runs under ms dos i would also like to obtain a program which will password protect floppy disks if this is possible thanks david maddison melbourne australia
sci.crypt	re list of large integer arithmetic packages mark riordan writes a list of large integer arithmetic packages elided i thought i would note that except lenstra s packages none of the large integer packages are in the public domain as an alternative a straightforward pd implementation of knuth s algorithms may be found as a part of uof arizona s icon distribution oz with diligence it is possible to make electric oz sis yorku ca anything run slowly tom duff ph x
sci.crypt	re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip smb research att com steven bellovin writes thousands tens of thousands do some arithmetic please skipjack has possible keys let s assume a brute force engine like that hypothesized for des microsecond per trial million chips that s trials per second or about years for trials well maybe they can get chips running at one trial per nanosecond and build a machine with million chips sure only years for each solution normally i d be the last to argue with steve but shouldn t that read years for all solutions i mean if we can imagine the machine that does trial nanosecond we can imagine the storage medium that could index and archive it shadwell hated all southerners and by inference was standing at the north pole good omens by neil gaiman and terry pratchett
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful shirriff sprite berkeley edu ken shirriff writes since archiving would be such a powerful tool and so easy to do why wouldn t it happen not enough magtape seriously do you have any idea how much traffic flows through the us phone system in a single day amanda walker intercon systems corporation
sci.crypt	clipper will corrupt cops was wh proposal from police point of view in article fbihh bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de vesselin bontchev writes strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes dwight tuinstra posts a very interesting message in which he comments on the effects of the clipper chip on state and local police actually reading between the lines it could be a very good thing for civil liberties in one respect since it will at least prevent cowboy cops and cowboy state and local agancies from reading your traffic if they tap it illegally instead of reading between the lines try to think a little bit ok if that s way too difficult to you here are some hints indeed the new proposal imposes some additional burocratic burden on the local police if they badly want to tape the magic cookie recipie that your mom is telling you on the phone so guess what they will do propose that the new technology is removed or implement some facilitations of course you won t want to wait until they get the approval from two different agencies to decrypt the conversation between two child molesters because meanwhile those two child molesters might be conspiring about molesting your child right so there should be some way for them to get access to those keys quickly right like they could have a copy of the database and worry about a warrant later i perhaps should have been clearer and more concise in my post but that s what i get from posting at am the central point i made is that local state police agencies attempting to play by the rules and get warrants legit escrowed keys etc may find themselves at the mercy of bureaucratic inertia and agency infighting at the federal level i disagree that this would assist civil liberties by hobbling the cowboy cops it would be a strong incentive as vesselin points out for more police agencies to go rogue and try to get keys through more efficient but less constitutional means notice what the release said q suppose a law enforcement agency is conducting a wiretap on a drug smuggling ring and intercepts a conversation encrypted using the device what would they have to do to decipher the message a they would have to obtain legal authorization normally a court order to do the wiretap in the first place the clear implication is that there are legal authorizations other than a court order just how leaky are these and who knows what s in those pages that authorized the nsa there may well arise a black market of sorts within police agencies in which keys are traded furthermore the police will be in an excellent position to carry out this kind of thing without being caught they already have a communication infrastructure with secure portions there are a few laws that i know of that limit citizens rights to access police communications or use the information they get it may be very difficult to prove police misuse the fact that you have such evidence may itself be evidence that you have broken some other law throw in private detectives who have even fewer policy constitutional restrictions also consider mercenaries who ve retired from intelligence agencies william gibson must be loving it great story material don t think it ll happen well consider e g the michigan state police generally a very professional organization which for years kept red files on thousands of suspected commies knowing full well it was not consititutional the standards of evidence were just about zero people were in the file because they happened to park near a place where say a us china people s friendship rally was happening the police went around writing down license plate numbers if you happened to be visiting a friend who lived near the meeting place well the state police wound up filing you as a subversive they were eventually found out and a court ruled against carrying on any more such nonsense i believe thay may have had to destroy the tapes as well even with well meaning cops and i m sure there are many there will be strong pressure to bend the constitutional safeguards we don t need to assume corrupt or unbalanced officers it will all be in the interest of enforcing sensible laws saving lives and protecting property compromises will be made by well meaning officers facing what to them will be a moral dilemma clipper will make criminals out of cops do we want to do this to our police forces dwight tuinstra best tuinstra sandman ece clarkson edu tolerable tuinstrd craft camp clarkson edu homo sapiens planetary cancer news at six
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in apr magnus acs ohio state edu jebright magnus acs ohio state edu james r ebright writes in article a rubin dsg dse beckman com arthur rubin writes i wouldn t trust the nsa i think i would trust the president on this but i m not certain he would be told i am not a crook president richard m nixon this president and i could easily be wrong arthur l rubin a rubin dsg dse beckman com work beckman instruments brea mcimail com compuserve com arthur pnet cts com personal my opinions are my own and do not represent those of my employer
sci.crypt	re would clipper make a good cover for other encryption method begin pgp signed message in article strnlghtc t nh is netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes in article apr eff org kadie eff org carl m kadie writes so don t just think of replacements for clipper also think of front ends this only makes sense if the government prohibits alternative non escrowed encryption schemes otherwise why not just use the front end without clipper david david they the gov t have already said that they hope to do this in the long run derek pgp key available upon request on the key server pgp public keys toxicwaste mit edu derek atkins mit electrical engineering and computer science secretary mit student information processing board sipb mit media laboratory speech research group warlord mit edu pp asel n nwh
sci.crypt	re would clipper make a good cover for other encryption method strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes chances are the government has thought of this and just anyone won t be permitted access to enough of the internals to make a fake clipper chip once the chips are released in phones or whatever they are vulnerable to phsyical inspection and observation now i will grant that there will no doubt be safeguards against peeling the chip but the nsa has no monopoly on cleverness the chip and the algorithms it uses will not remain secret for very long any university with a vlsi lab has the required equipment as does any offshore semiconductor manufacturer amanda walker intercon systems corporation
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article qsip innnj dns nmsu edu amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor writes al escom com al donaldson writes amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor writes this appears to be generic calling upon the name of the anti christ just for the hell of it let s destroy this remark let us imagine that the executive branch actually could extract keys from the escrow houses without anyone knowing or telling now what dick has bits of data what the hell s he gonna do with it trot around to the telco and say we d like an unauthorised decrypting tap uh huh break in to watergate and install his own tap so his people still do have to break in neat huh record some noise then get the executive branch phone decryption box huh they ve got one goodness wait til the washington post gets hold of this and decrypt the noise more likely stare at the key and say oh hell it s not worth all this bloody hassle no he gives the keys to the fbi who may then give them to the local police on request who then simply put some alagator clips on your phone junction box and conduct an illegal tap they then decrypt when they recover the tape its just doing what the government does best breaking the law bill smythe
sci.crypt	re the secret source of that announcement grady netcom com suggests using a common but restricted distribution private key to allow public key system encrypted postings in theory that will work fine as long as the privae key remains secure in practice it would be a good idea to check to see if that would be a violation of some net rule practice custom etc i don t say it would be just that it would be a good idea to check this is not like rot where everybody can have the key trivially it would also be a good idea to check to see if such posts would be forwarded by the sites needed to make the chain work of course there d be no problem with a discussion group travelling over facilities entirely under the control of the members probably there would also be no problem with a mailing list approach it might even be fun for some david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article elee sf apr menudo menudo uh edu elee sf menudo menudo uh edu karl barrus writes would you trust a black box from the nsa versus an open system from elsewhere absolutely if i were assured by someone i trusted that the black box was more secure i have nothing to conceal from the government but i would like to be sure that any russian japanese french or other competitors for my services can t read my traffic i d like to be sure that competitive bid information was safe from commercial competitors and foreign governments which would aid them i believe the nsa has identical motivations with respect to my activities the president and many other senior government officials have made it very clear that they share these motivations thus i d trust them on the coincidence of interests argument as well as on a basic trust in their professionalism and a high confidence in their skills david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	bit keyseach machine in article apr lokkur dexter mi us scs lokkur dexter mi us steve simmons writes normally i d be the last to argue with steve but shouldn t that read years for all solutions i mean if we can imagine the machine that does trial nanosecond we can imagine the storage medium that could index and archive it hmmmm i think with really large keyspaces like this you need to alter the strategy discussed for des attempt decryption of several blocks and check the disctribution of the contents i don t think it s at all feasible to keep encryptions of a known plaintext block on any amount of tape or cd rom and certainly not such encrypted blocks anyone know a cheap way of converting every atom in the solar system into a one bit storage device actually a keysearch of this kind shouldn t be much worse than the simpler kind in terms of speed it s just that you have to do it over for every encrypted message dumb question has anyone ever done any serious research on how many legitimate ascii encoded byte blocks there are that could be part of an english sentence for attacking des in ecb mode it seems like a dictionary of this kind might be pretty valuable john kelsey
sci.crypt	re fighting the clipper initiative in article r nov p e access digex net steve b access digex com steve brinich writes american manufacturers peddling cripple chips with a secret untested algorithm whose keys are held by people with a history of untrustworthy behavoir or er excuse me but since the escrow agencies aren t yet chosen how can you say they have a history of untrustworthy behavoir sic i m sure each of us can think of agencies without such a history price waterhouse has kept the secret of the academy awards for many years even in the face of an aggressive press the federal reserve open market committee has successfully kept decisions from leaking for the statutory period until publication even the department of agriculture has successfully kept crop forecasts from leaking prematurely frankly i d trust the above not the d of a of course since they might be subject to political pressure far sooner than the aclu eff or cpsr which though not exactly government apologists have no particular track record for internal security that i know of david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re bit keyseach machine in article bb c mizzou missouri edu c mizzou missouri edu john kelsey writes in article apr lokkur dexter mi us scs lokkur dexter mi us steve simmons writes normally i d be the last to argue with steve but shouldn t that read years for all solutions i mean if we can imagine the machine that does trial nanosecond we can imagine the storage medium that could index and archive it hmmmm i think with really large keyspaces like this you need to alter the strategy discussed for des attempt decryption of several blocks and check the disctribution of the contents i don t think it s at all feasible to keep encryptions of a known plaintext block on any amount of tape or cd rom and certainly not such encrypted blocks anyone know a cheap way of converting every atom in the solar system into a one bit storage device i don t claim to be a crypto analyist there isn t a whole lot of good literature on the subject and the best people don t seem to publish their work but i rather doubt the approach such folks use is brute force sorry to have implied that in my previous post the history of these things is folks find clever ways of limiting the search and bang from there i guess my real problem with skipjack is i can not believe nsa would make publicly available a system they couldn t break if they wanted it just isn t in their charter remember des came from ibm not nsa and when first published was given a useful life of years i think we are well past that point now remember based on the size of the nsa budget they spend a lot more on the technology of decryption than most computer companies spend on r d i have to imagine their stuff is real interesting a friend who once worked for them he is dead now said he always enjoyed monitoring sac s strategic air command crypto traffic and i rather suspect that stuff is a bit more complex than skipjack or was it the military got the stuff from the nsa just like we get skipjack from them btw folks nsa wasn t being given the keys and the walker spy case shows for some of the systems the kgb didn t need them either information farming at for addr phone finger a a the ohio state university jebright magnus acs ohio state edu jim ebright e mail jre osu edu support privacy support encryption
sci.crypt	re do we need the clipper for cheap security in article r f rh news intercon com amanda intercon com amanda walker writes one thing that clipper offers is interoperability at a higher degree of security than we currently have in non proprietary voice encryption systems this means it will be cheaper than anyone s proprietary scheme and easier to deploy i may be an anarchist nutcase but i wouldn t have frothed overmuch had the government proposed a secure encryption standard in fact if the nsa had come up with a privacy chip rather than a wiretap chip i would have been happy they could have done this set up an ansi committee picked a secure cryptosystem defined a protocol and interface and said hey start building them instead we have a deliberately brain dead version of a cryptosystem that has not even been peer reviewed yes the nsa owns some smart people but if they pulled a feal well at t is going to be left with a lot of dud phones on its hands perry said someone please tell me what exactly we get in our social contract in exchange for giving up our right to strong cryptography can you tell me where exactly we have given up that right heh heh the government already gave it up for us remember in the announcement they described this scheme as balancing the two extremes of having no privacy and claiming that citizens had a constitutional right to encryption so much for clinton s support of the right of privacy pgp key by finger or e mail void when prohibited eli ebrandt jarthur claremont edu
sci.crypt	re clipper chip long follow up in article apr cc curtin edu au zrepachol cc curtin edu au paul repacholi writes questions and answers about the clinton administration s telecommunications initiative q suppose a law enforcement agency is conducting a wiretap on a drug smuggling ring and intercepts a conversation encrypted using the device what would they have to do to decipher the message a they would have to obtain legal authorization normally a court order to do the wiretap in the first place they would then present documentation of this authorization to the two entities responsible for safeguarding the keys and obtain the keys for the device being used by the drug smugglers the key is split into two parts which are stored separately in order to ensure the security of the key escrow system i apologize for being so dense but this sentence reads as if it was lifted from a luis bunuel screenplay am i missing something why on earth would drug smugglers even use the device then obviously they ll be using something like triple encryption des instead as long as alternatives to clipper remain legal clipper accomplishes absolutely nothing zero as far as law enforcement is concerned the whole scheme is an absolute total incredible waste of government time and money as long as other encryption schemes that are any good remain legal in order for clipper to work as intended all strong cryptosystems have to be outlawed jan bielawski computervision san diego jpb calmasd prime com
sci.crypt	re cryptology in the world in article apr news weeg uiowa edu holthaus news weeg uiowa edu james r holthaus writes what is the status of cruptology for private citizens throughout the world or more clearly is there a listing of countries and their policies on citizens encrypting electronic data i m curious how the europeans handle this for instance good question i also wanted to find out and i did a while ago in our former communist times such activity i e sending crypto emails would be prevented sooner ot later law or no law but now there is no law against it so we are free to use it we now have an ec conformant law for protection and registration of personal files you must remember that the situation in small countries is vastly different from the big ones borut b lavrencic d sc x c si a mail p ac o ijs s lavrencic j stefan institute internet borut b lavrencic ijs si university of ljubljana phone si ljubljana slovenia pgp public key available on request dolgo smois kalis ovraz nikei njihk ocnoo dkril ivseb ipika
sci.crypt	crypto final call crypto conference announcement final call for papers the thirteenth annual crypto conference sponsored by the international association for cryptologic research iacr in cooperation with the ieee computer society technical committee on security and privacy the computer science department of the university of california santa barbara and bell northern research a subsidiary of northern telecom will be held on the campus of the university of california santa barbara on august original research papers and technical expository talks are solicited on all practical and theoretical aspects of cryptology it is anticipated that some talks may also be presented by special invitation of the program committee instructions for authors authors are requested to send copies of a detailed abstract not a full paper by april to the program chair at the address given below a limit of pages of pt type not counting the bibliography or the title page is placed on all submissions submissions must arrive on time or be postmarked no later than april and sent by airmail in order to receive consideration by the program committee it is required that submissions start with a succinct statement of the problem addressed the solution proposed and its significance to cryptology appropriate for a non specialist reader technical development directed to the specialist should follow as needed abstracts that have been submitted to other conferences that have proceedings are not eligible for submission submissions must be anonymous this means that names and affiliations of authors should only appear on the title page of the submission it should be possible to remove this page and send the papers to program committee members a latex style file that produces output in this format is available by email from the program chair authors will be informed of acceptance or rejection in a letter mailed on or before june a compilation of all accepted abstracts will be available at the conference in the form of pre proceedings authors of accepted abstracts will be allowed to submit revised versions for the pre proceedings a revised abstract should contain only minor changes and corrections to the originally submitted abstract all revised abstracts must be received by the program chair by july the page limit will be strictly enforced for the pre proceedings complete conference proceedings are expected to be published in springer verlag s lecture notes in computer science series at a later date pending negotiation the program committee consists of d stinson chair nebraska m bellare ibm t j watson e biham technion israel e brickell sandia national labs j feigenbaum at t bell labs r impagliazzo ucsd a odlyzko at t bell labs t okamoto ntt japan b pfitzmann hildesheim germany r rueppel r switzerland s vanstone waterloo canada send submissions to the program chair douglas r stinson crypto computer science and engineering department ferguson hall university of nebraska lincoln ne usa telephone fax internet stinson bibd unl edu for other information contact the general chair paul c van oorschot crypto bell northern research mail stop carling ave nepean ontario k h e canada telephone fax internet crypto bnr ca crypto general information august the program crypto is the thirteenth in a series of workshops on cryptology held at santa barbara and is sponsored by the international association for cryptologic research in cooperation with the ieee computer society technical committee on security and privacy the computer science department of the university of california santa barbara and bell northern research a subsidiary of northern telecom the program for the workshop will cover all aspects of cryptology extended abstracts of the papers presented at the conference will be distributed to all attendees at the conference and formal proceedings will be published at a later date in addition to the regular program of papers selected or invited by the program committee there will be a rump session on tuesday evening for informal presentations facilities will also be provided for attendees to demonstrate hardware software and other items of cryptographic interest if you wish to demonstrate such items you are urged to contact the general chair so that your needs will be attended to the social program will include hosted cocktail parties on sunday and monday in addition there will be a beach barbecue on wednesday evening the price of the barbecue is included in the room and board charge and extra tickets may be purchased about the conference facilities the workshop will be held on the campus of the university of california santa barbara the campus is located adjacent to the santa barbara airport and the pacific ocean accommodations are available in the university dormitories at relatively low cost for conference participants children under the age of are not allowed to stay in the dormitories so those bringing small children will need to make separate arrangements in one of several nearby hotels more information on hotels is enclosed parking on campus is available at no cost to the participants however participants must indicate on the registration form if they desire a parking permit travel information the campus is located approximately miles from the santa barbara airport which is served by several airlines including american america west delta united and us air free shuttle bus service will be provided between the santa barbara airport and the campus on sunday and thursday afternoons all major rental car agencies are also represented in santa barbara and amtrak has rail connections to san francisco from the north and los angeles from the south santa barbara is approximately miles north of los angeles airport and miles south of san francisco registration participation is invited by interested parties but attendance at the workshop is limited and pre registration is strongly advised late registrations subject to a late registration fee may be accepted if space is available but there are no guarantees to register fill out the attached registration form and return to the address on the form along with payment in full before july campus accommodations will be available on a first come first serve basis for attendees who register by july the conference fees include participation in the program and all social functions as well as membership to the iacr and a subscription to the journal of cryptology the room and board charges include dormitory lodging and meals from dinner on sunday to lunch on thursday technical sessions will run from monday morning to thursday at noon a very limited number of stipends are available to those unable to obtain funding applications for stipends should be sent to the general chair before june crypto crypto registration form registration deadline july last name first name sex m f affiliation mailing address phone fax electronic mail payment of the conference fee entitles you to membership in the international association for cryptologic research for one year at no extra charge including a subscription to the journal of cryptology published by springer verlag at no extra charge do you wish to be an iacr member yes no the conference fee also includes the conference proceedings when they become available containing final versions of conference papers the book of extended abstracts distributed at the conference will contain only shortened preliminary versions of these papers maximum pages conference fee regular us attended eurocrypt norway full time student deduct if you do not wish proceedings total conference fee us room and board nights smoking non smoking single room per person double room per person roommate s name extra barbecue tickets each one is included in room and board late fee for registration after july registration not guaranteed after july total funds enclosed u s dollars us payment must be by check payable in u s funds by money order in u s funds or by u s bank draft payable to crypto payment should be mailed to the general chair paul c van oorschot crypto bell northern research mail stop carling ave nepean ontario k h e canada crypto hotel information for those who choose not to stay in the dormitories the following is a partial list of hotels in the area those who choose to stay off campus are responsible for making their own reservations and early reservations are advised since august is a popular season in santa barbara note that goleta is closer to ucsb than santa barbara but that a car will probably be required to travel between any hotel and the campus all prices are subject to change prices should be confirmed by calling the individual hotels directly however mention crypto when you are making your reservation and in several of the hotels listed you will be eligible for the university rate which can be significantly less than the normal rates we are not able to block rooms in these hotels so please make reservations as early as possible the quality of the hotels range from rather expensive beach front resorts to basic inexpensive accommodations for further information try contacting the santa barbara convention and visitors center south coast inn calle real goleta ca regular rates single double call for university rates contact murrill forrester at or toll free at cathedral oaks lodge calle real santa barbara single rates not available double rates start at including breakfast no university rates call tom patton at or toll free at motel calle real goleta ca single double no university rate available call the sandman inn state st santa barbara ca regular rates single or double for king size university rate call jean ingerle at or toll free at miramar hotel beachfront miles south of santa barbara on u s at san ysidro turnoff regular rates no university rates call pepper tree inn state st santa barbara ca regular rates for two people university rates for two people call christopher 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sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful in article optilink com brad optilink com brad yearwood writes if clipper comes to cellular phones along with legal proscriptions against using other cipher systems on these phones a new and potentially dangerous class of crime is created aside from possession of terrorist tools unapproved encryption devices or programs criminals who very badly want inscrutable tactical communications specifically the terrorists and drug dealers who proponents of key escrow cite as threats will be highly motivated to steal the cipher phone of a legitimate user and to kill this person or hold them hostage so discovery of compromise of the device will be delayed once a suitable collection of devices is stolen criminals can communicate with impunity assuming the cipher system carries no trapdoors apart from key escrow until and unless the compromise is discovered by some other means because life is cheap criminals are currently willing to kill people to steal very large and conspicuous property luxury cars it is reasonable to assume that they will be willing to kill people to steal small and inconspicuous property a cipher cellular phone just as we have seen in the past with blue box technology and in the present with modified cellular phones we can expect to see among high stakes criminals a lucrative market for stolen cipher phones which can be used for a few days the high stakes criminals will pay the life is cheap types substantial amounts for stolen instruments because a person is typically discovered as missing or dead in a few days a stolen instrument will be usable for only a few days there will be a continuing demand for fresh phones fresh bodies and since clinton is also going full bore to deny unconnected citizens the means to defend themselves we will protect you is good enough for you by perverting or trashing the second amendment the targeted individuals will be guaranteed easy prey what is a few bodies compared to the greater good of the fed being able to defeat a citizen s security with impunity you don t think there doesn t exist a means by which the nsa can do their usual eavesdropping scanning for keywords with or without a court order or any keys do you if so i got some great florida real estate you might be interested in perhaps the idea of escrowed keys is meant to divert the discussion to how they will be safeguarded and away from the basic fact that the government is systematically taking away our right to privacy to be secure for the means of self defense and just about every other right spelled out in the bill of rights nawwww they are the government trust us in other words clipper and similar systems have the potential to turn a current inconvenience to law enforcement into a direct vicious and persistent threat to the general public what is more important to the government law enforcement people control or the safety of the general public the gun control issue should answer that one look at how good that works in making cities safer the places that are the worst in that regard are also the places with the best gun control government is not about public good it is about control never forget that our founding fathers sure were concerned about it remainder deleted pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien
sci.crypt	re list of large integer arithmetic packages mrr scss cl msu edu mark riordan writes not very comprehensive list deleted there is a very comprehensive list in sci math symbolic which detailed descriptions of many packages especially you mark should update your list here it is available systems this is the list of currently developed and distributed software for symbolic math applications no informations is supplied on systems no longer being supported like saint formac alpak altran mathlab sin sac camal scratchpad mumath sheep trigman analitik smp or ccalc for more detailed info on any of the systems below look into the directory pub symbolic math in the anonymous ftp of math berkeley edu no particular recommendation is made for any of these if you want prices contact the company programs are listed by aprox the reverse order of the number of machines they run on in each class general purpose systems first if you have any information to add to this list we know we are missing mupad felix please send it to ca math berkeley edu paulo ney de souza department of mathematics university of california berkeley ca desouza math berkeley edu general purpose maple type commercial machines most impressive list of machines i seen for a program workstations dec hp ibm mips sun sgi apollo pc s mac amiga atari at t b gould convex ncr pyramid sequent unisys and cray s contact maple daisy waterloo edu waterloo maple software columbia street west waterloo ontario canada n l l phone version release comments general purpose source available for most routines graphics support in a demo of the program for pc dos can be obtained from anonymous ftp at wuarchive wustl edu edu math msdos modern algebra maplev zip mathematica type commercial machines cray ymp down to mac s and pc s contact info wri com phone math wolfram research inc trade center drive champaign il version comments general purpose notebook interface on next mac nice graphics macsyma type commercial machines sun sun sparc vax unix and vms apollo hp dec risc pc dos symbolics computers and no sx s pc s contact macsyma service macsyma com phone macsyma macsyma inc academy st arlington ma version depends on machine is the latest for sun hp and dec risc for pc s comments general purpose many diverse capabilities one of the oldest around includes propietary improvements from symbolics and macsyma inc descendant of mit s macsyma doe macsyma type distribution fee only machines gigamos symbolics and ti explorer lisp machines the nil version runs on vaxes using the vms system the public domain franz lisp version runs on unix machines including suns and vaxes using unix contact estsc energy science technology software center p o box oak ridge tn phone comments help with doe macsyma general and help with issues such as obtaining support new versions etc lph paradigm com leon harten from paradigm assoc paradigm associates inc putnam avenue suite cambridge ma maxima type licence for a fee get licence from estc before download machines unix workstations sun mips hp pc s and pc dos beta contact wfs rascal utexas edu bill schelter version comments general purpose mit macsyma family common lisp implementation by william f schelter based on kyoto common lisp modified version of doe macsyma available to estsc doe sites get the licence from estsc phone and then dowload the software from dos math utexas edu pub beta max zip or unix rascal ics utexas edu pub maxima tar z currently their charge for machine license is to universities site licenses are also available aljabr type commercial machines mac s with meg of ram contact aljabr fpr com phone fort pond research fort pond road acton ma us version comments mit macsyma family descendant uses franz lisp paramacs type commercial machines vax vms sun sun sgi and mac s on the works contact lph paradigm com version comments vaxima type distribution fee only machines vax unix contact estsc see doe macsyma above version comments general purpose mit macsyma family descendant includes source and binaries with assembler for macsyma and franz lisp opus reduce type commercial machines all unix workstations a variety of mainframes ms dos mbyte and atari st contact reduce netlib rand org version comments general purpose form type public domain verison version commercial machines msdos atarist mac sun sun sparc apollo next vax vms vax ultrix decstation and others contact t nikhef nl jos vermaseren binary versions of version are available by anonymous ftp from nikhef nikhef nl version and comments general purpose designed for big problems batch like interface axiom type commercial machines ibm rs s and other ibm plataforms contact ryan nag com phone fax nag numerical algorithms group inc opus place suite downers grove il version comments general purpose simath type anonymous ftp machines suns apollo dn and siemens workstations contact simath math uni sb de version comments general purpose derive type commercial machines runs on pc s and hp s contact soft warehouse inc harding ave suite honolulu hawaii version comments said to be very robust gets problems that other larger programs fail on low cost theorist type commercial machines mac s contact prescien well sf ca us phone fax prescience corp howard st san francisco ca version comments general purpose graphics if you like the mac interface you ll love this fixed precision digits runs on smaller mac s than mma mas type anonymous ftp machines atari st tdi and spc modula compilers ibm pc at m sds and topspeed modula compilers and commodore amiga m amiga compiler contact h kredel computer algebra group university of passau germany version comments mas is an experimental computer algebra system combining imperative programming facilities with algebraic specification capabilities for design and study of algebraic algorithms mas is available via anonymous ftp from alice fmi uni passau de mockmma type anonymous ftp from peoplesparc berkeley edu machines anywhere running common lisp contact fateman cs berkeley edu version comments it does matematica or i mispelled that weyl type anonymous ftp from ftp cs cornell edu pub weyl contact rz cs cornell edu version comments intended to be incorporated in larger more specialized systems flac type machines ibm pc s dos contact victor l kistlerov institute for control sciences profsoyuznaya moscow ussr version comments functional language group theory cayley type cost recovery machines sun sun ibm aix and vm machines apollo dec vax vms mac running a ux or higher and convex contact cayley maths su oz au phone fax computational algebra group university of sydney nsw australia version comments designed for fast computation with algebraic and combinatorial structures such as groups rings fields modules and graphs although it began as a group theory system it has recently evolved into a general abstract algebra system gap type anonymous ftp free but not pd basically gnu copyleft machines all unix workstations atari st ibm pc and mac contact gap samson math rwth aachen de ftp site samson math rwth aachen de math ucla edu version to be released dec comments group theory calculations algebra number theory pari type anonymous ftp machines most workstations mac and next contact pari mizar greco prog fr anonymous ftp to math ucla edu in the directory pub pari version comments number theoretical computations source available key routines are in assembler ascii and xwindows graphics pc dos version available from anonymous ftp at wuarchive wustl edu edu math msdos modern algebra pari macaulay type anonymous ftp machines complete source available binary mac versions available contact anonymous ftp to zariski harvard edu version comments focused on algebra type computations polynomial rings over finite fields things like that kant type machines contact kant group prof dr m e pohst dr johannes graf v schmettow mathematisches institut heinrich heine universit at universit atsstr d d usseldorf pohst dd rud bitnet or schmetto dd rud bitnet version comments kant computational algebraic number theory is subroutine package for algorithms from geometry of numbers and algebraic number theory there are two versions of kant kant v is written in ansi fortran while kant v is built on the cayley platform and written in ansi c lie type commercial machines unix workstations sun dec sgi ibm next pc s atari and mac s contact lie can nl phone fax can expertise centre kruislaan sj amsterdam the netherlands version comments lie group computations ubasic type anonymous ftp ubas zip machines mac and ibm pc s contact malm argo acs oakland edu phone donald e g malm department of mathematical sciences oakland university rochester mi version comments basic like environment for number theory in the collection of programs written for it one can find malm collection of ubasic number theory programs malm zip by donald e g malm and copyrighted by him including baillie wagstaff lucas pseudoprime test algorithm for chinese remaindering elliptic curve method to factorize n fermat s method of factoring general periodic continued fraction to quadratic routine evaluates carmichael s function d h lehmer s method of solving x q mod p ubmpqs prime factorization program for numbers over digits ubmpqs zip that can be found in the wurst archives wuarchive wustl edu numbers type free but not public domain registration required machines pc dos contact ivo dntsch phone rechenzentrum fax universitt osnabrck bitnet duentsch dosuni postfach w osnabrck germany version c comments numbers is a calculator for number theory it performs various routines in elementary number theory some of which are also usable in algebra or combinatorics available in the anonymous ftp in ftp rz uni osnabrueck de in the directory pub msdos math cocoa type machines mac s contact cocoa igecuniv bitnet version comments computations in commutative algebra galois type commercial machines ibm pc dos contact cifeg inc kalkgruberweg a linz austria version comments algebra and number theory microcomputer written by r lidl r w matthews and r wells from the u tasmania in turbo pascal v ganith type anonymous ftp machines any system with vanilla common lisp x and has at least a rudimentary lisp c interface contact chanderjit bajaj andrew royappa department of computer science purdue university west lafayette in bajaj and royappa cs purdue edu version comments ganith is an algebraic geometry toolkit for computing and visualising solutions to systems of algebraic equations it is written in common lisp and c and runs under version of the x window system ganith is available from the anonymous ftp at cs purdue edu in the file pub avr ganith src tar z tensor analysis schoonship type machines contact mentioned in comp phys comm version comments i have heard this program mentioned supposely it s designed for large problems i e thousands of terms in series expansions developed at cern for cdc stensor type machines vax sun apollos orion atari amiga contact lh vand physto se lars hornfeldt physics department university of stockholm vanadisv s stockholm sweden version comments system for tensor calculus and noncommutative algebra lisp calculators jacal type gnu copyleft machines needs a lisp either common or scheme contact available by anon ftp to altdorf ai mit edu version comments an ibm pc version on floppy for is available from aubrey jaffer pleasant st wakefield ma usa gnu calc type gnu copyleft machines where emacs runs contact free software foundation version comments it runs inside gnu emacs and is written entirely in emacs lisp it does the usual things arbitrary precision integer real and complex arithmetic all written in lisp scientific functions symbolic algebra and calculus matrices graphics etc and can display expressions with square root signs and integrals by drawing them on the screen with ascii characters it comes with well written page online manual you can ftp it from any gnu site differential equations delia type informal distribution machines ibm pc s dos contact a v bocharov program systems institute ussr academy of science pereslavl p o box ussr tlx boat version comments differetial equation computations pc shareware symbmath type shareware student and advanced versions machines ibm pc contact chen deakin oz au version comments runs on plain k dos machines the shareware version is available in the file sm a zip on the wurst archives more capable versions are available by mail order from the author cla type anonymous ftp machines pc dos contact version comments a linear or matrix algebra package which computes rank determinant rwo reduced echelon form jordan canonical form characteristic equation eigenvalues etc of a matrix file cla zip on the wurst archives xpl type anonymous ftp machines pc dos contact david meredith department of mathematics san francisco state university san francisco ca meredith sfsuvax sfsu edu version comments formerly called ccalc well integrated graphics and some numerical matrix manipulation routines intended for calculus students prentice hall sells this with a book isbn x or by calling but it is also available without the manual but with a comprehensive help system by anonymous ftp from wuarchive wustl edu edu math msdos calculus cc zip amp type commercial evaluation copy available by anonymous ftp machines pc dos contact mark garber compuserve com ph cerebral software po box chamblee ga version comments the algebraic manipulation program amp is written in modula and is a symbolic calculation tool amp functions in an interpreter mode and program mode it has tensor manipulation using index notation the evaluation copy is available in the anonymous ftp at ftp rz uni osnabrueck de pub msdos math amp zip mercury type shareware machines pc dos contact version comments limited in symbolic capabilities but is extremely adept at numerically solving equations and produces publication quality graphical output this used to be borland s eureka but when borland abandoned it its original author started selling it as shareware under the name mercury available from anonymous ftp at wuarchive wustl edu edu math msdos calculus mrcry zip pfsa type public domain machines pc dos contact version comments available from the anonymous ftp at wuarchive wustl edu edu math msdos modern algebra vol zip lie type public domain machines pc dos contact head rivett mst csiro au a k head csiro division of materials science and technology melbourne australia or locked bag clayton vic australia phone telex aa fax version comments lie is a program written in the mumath language not a package for lie analysis of differential equations available from anonymous ftp at wuarchive wustl edu edu math msdos adv diff equations lie calculus type shareware machines pc dos with ega contact byoung keum dept of mathematics university of il urbana il version comments program for calculus and differential equations it has symbolic diff integration simple functions graphs very unstable program no reason to use it except for price suggested registration fee is available from anonymous ftp at wuarchive wustl edu edu math msdos calculus calc arc marc conrad universitaet des saarlandes luxemburg marc math uni sb de france germany these opinions are not necessarily these x you are here of the simath group and maybe even not mine
sci.crypt	re do we need the clipper for cheap security gtoal gtoal com graham toal writes in the uk it s impossible to get approval to attach any crypto device to the phone network anything that plugs in to our bt phone sockets must be approved for some reason crypto devices just never are whats the difference between a v bis modem and a v bis modem i m not being entirely silly here what i m pointing out is that the modems that they have already approved for data transmission will work just fine to transmit scrambled vocoded voice absolutely i just meant that no secure dedicated crypto device has ever been given approval guerrilla underground devices should be well possible with today s high speed modems not that i can think of many v bis modems that are approved either mind you just the overpriced couriers can someone tell me if hardware compression is or is not needed to run digital speech down k i think it is i ve heard it s not lets say bit samples would raw data at the corresponding sampling rate be usable if not how fancy does the compression need to be g
sci.crypt	re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip i think i should also point out that the mystical des engines are known plaintext engines unless you add a ton of really smart hardware assume the ton of smart hardware it doesn t really have to be that smart g
sci.crypt	re the secret source of that announcement even more interesting the smtp server at csrc ncsl nist gov no longer recognizes the expn and vrfy commands telnet csrc ncsl nist gov smtp trying connected to csrc ncsl nist gov escape character is first org sendmail nist ready at tue apr edt expn clipper command unrecognized seems like sombody didn t like your snooping around marc or mine or the dozen or so other people who probably had the same idea so does this rush to shut it down imply that some of the names on that list are heavy duty spooks g
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption actually many of us have noted this we have noted that the program started at least years ago that the contracts with vlsi technology and microtoxin were let at least months ago that production of the chips is well underway and so forth nobody i know has claimed clinton intitiated the program but he chose to go ahead with it perhaps the nsa realised that no one would even contemplate falling for the dual escrow bluff while under the bush administration and had to wait for a democrat govt to con into promoting this because people might just believe they were honest didn t work did it g
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption in article qmugcinnpu gap caltech edu hal cco caltech edu hal finney writes the key question is whether non clipper encryption will be made illegal it seems pretty obvious that it will be made illegal if very loud noise is not made about this immediately to congress and the house it looks like the worst nightmares raised by dorothy denning s proposals are coming true if the government continues on this course i imagine that we will see strong cryptography made illegal encryption programs for disk files and email as well as software to allow for encrypted voice communications will be distributed only through the underground people will have to learn how to hide the fact that they are protecting their privacy i don t know what s worse the waste of money or the fact that in spite of all clinton s rhetoric to the contrary this is a feeble attempt by a large group of bored intelligence bureaucrats to justify their currently useless jobs clinton said he was going to trim the fat from the government this doesn t look very dietetic to me as i said before in this group drug dealing and terrorism both tend to be international crimes which are not going to cease if the us starts to regulate encryption the drug dealers and terrorists will simply go to other countries to communicate their plans and will still carry them out here and or wherever else this is not the solution to the problem they try to invent a new problem by saying we need encryption i guess it s a good thing bill gates isn t a star general or we would all need our own copies of ms dos too right und vee haff vays uff findink out iff you are usink doctor dos it s shocking and frightening to see that this is actually happening here our health care and education systems are in the toilet and they come up with this pearl if this goddamned government doesn t get a clue real quick and start trying to repair the infrastructure of the country rather than inventing someone to blame germany and japan are going to eat the us alive and we will deserve it it s not like there s any shortage of real problems to solve guys a clipper chip is really going to help the homeless a clipper chip is really going to help educate the children in the ghettos of our cities just think of the generation gap that can be developed when they rehire dod engineer dad to work on clipper chips that will be used to decrypt slightly rebellious adolescent hacker son s naughty gif files i can see the shitcom already if that wasn t a forged post or a sick joke i m popping that dead kennedys tape into the car stereo and tearing ass to canada clinton on white horse is near it s the suede denim secret police they have come for your uncool niece don t worry it s only a phone shit i knew i should have gotten some of those consent to monitoring stickers they keep on autovon phones when i had the chance i should have known i d need them in civilian life redsonja olias linet org rs self possession is of the law alien we control the laws of nature how come when it s human it s an joel and you still dress that way abortion but when it s a chicken mst k gamera vs guiron it s an omelet george carlin
sci.crypt	re fighting the clipper initiative er excuse me but since the escrow agencies aren t yet chosen how can you say they have a history of untrustworthy behavoir sic i refer to the federal law enforcement apparatus which is ultimately in charge of this generally
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article apr escom com al donaldson writes unrelated question isn t the term clipper as neat as it is already taken by intergraph yes clipper is a trademark of intergraph its the risc chip used in some of thier workstations i wonder what intergraph is going to do to this infringement on thier name sake jeff hyche there can be only one presto random uunet uu net x
sci.crypt	re an open letter to mr clinton in article vkcsbl mbeckman mbeckman com mbeckman mbeckman com writes as an economist i m sure you can see the flaws in this logic if the naive market is flooded with proprietary but weak encryption then truly strong encryption will be unable to compete this is true for the mass market but not for those who need strong crypto and are willing to pay the price after all one can buy strong crypto today if one is willing to spend enough thus the concern is not economic the issue most worth worrying about is that after the system takes hold the government will outlaw other systems and something voluntary will become the only system available that is a political not an economic issue as a separate matter you may be making an implied advocacy for cheap secure crypto for everyone it s true that the clipper chip would probably prevent that except via clipper but cheap secure crypto for everyone is a political discussion not an economic one and the whole point of clipper is to resolve that political policy tension between securing legitimate communications and tapping the crooks david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	re do we need the clipper for cheap security ebrandt jarthur claremont edu eli brandt writes instead we have a deliberately brain dead version of a cryptosystem that has not even been peer reviewed yes the nsa owns some smart people but if they pulled a feal well at t is going to be left with a lot of dud phones on its hands agreed remember i don t even think of clipper as encryption in any real sense if i did i d probably be a lot more annoyed about it heh heh the government already gave it up for us remember in the announcement they described this scheme as balancing the two extremes of having no privacy and claiming that citizens had a constitutional right to encryption that s not for clinton or anyone under him to say though only the federal and supreme courts can say anything about the constitutionality anything the administration or any governmental agency says is opinion at best amanda walker intercon systems corporation
sci.crypt	re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip smb research att com steven bellovin writes thousands tens of thousands do some arithmetic please skipjack has possible keys let s assume a brute force engine like that hypothesized for des microsecond per trial million chips that s trials per second or about years for trials well maybe they can get chips running at one trial per nanosecond and build a machine with million chips sure only years for each solution but there is a much more pernicious problem with the scheme as proposed building a brute force machine to test possible keys if you have the other half from one escrow agent is easy one chip one test per microsecond gives you one break every two weeks and that break gives you all messages involving that phone the xor scheme so that the files from one escrow agent gives you nothing is an improvement but notice that xoring with truely random bit strings allows for an arbitrary number of escrow agents using for xor sk for the escrowed key and a and b for two random bit strings hand sk a b sk a and sk b to three escrow agents it is possible to come with an encoding scheme to match any escrow pattern for example of such that fewer cooperating escrow agents gives the cracking agency no benefit robert i eachus with standard disclaimer use standard disclaimer function message text in clever ideas return better ideas is
sci.crypt	re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only in article apr shearson com pmetzger snark shearson com perry e metzger writes i wrote the chip and algorithm are classified if you reverse engineer it and tell people you are likely to go to jail well i m not a lawyer but from what i can tell this is completely and utterly untrue the u s does not have an official secrets act we do have laws that will punish you for revealing what classified information you learned in your capacity as a government official contractor etc and we have laws that prohibit stealing such information however if they sell you the chip i can t see that they can make reverse engineering it and revealing the details illegal in most cases information you come by properly is yours to use as you wish but there are certainly exceptions if you write a paper which includes sufficiently detailed information on how to build a nuclear weapon it is classified as i understand the law nuclear weapons design is automatically classified even if you do the work yourself i believe you are then not allowed to read your own paper a less serious example if you tell drivers about a speed trap they are about to run into you can be fined even though you might argue that you broke no law when you discovered the location of the policeman the charge is interfering with a police officer which is quite similar what you would be doing by reverse engineering the clipper chip don t tell me that you think this violates the constitution find some court cases which have struck down such laws many people would not be comforted by the fact that the government violated their rights when it imprisoned them john carr jfc athena mit edu
sci.crypt	re freely distributable public key cryptography c code where d wigglesworth smhanaes gpu utcc utoronto ca wrote do you know of any freely distributable c or c code for public key cryptography such as rsa i ve tried various archie searches to no avail have you heard of pgp i assume from your post that you have not pgp is a freeware rsa encryption program which includes digital signatures and comprehensive key management facilities most sites also keep the source code a growing number of people are using this excellent software to encrypt to a very high standard their email and data get it before clinton outlaws it two of the many sites are rsa com pub pgp soda berkeley edu pub cypherpunks pgp hope this helps jon jon saville who alive can say thou art no ee jks brunel ac uk poet may st not tell thy dreams keats pgp public key available upon request or by finger
sci.crypt	re clipper chip and crypto key escrow excerpts from the clipper announcement with some questions the ability of authorized officials to access telephone calls and data under proper court or other legal order when necessary to protect our citizens q suppose a law enforcement agency is conducting a wiretap on a drug smuggling ring and intercepts a conversation encrypted using the device what would they have to do to decipher the message a they would have to obtain legal authorization normally a court order to do the wiretap in the first place they would then present documentation of this authorization to the two entities responsible for safeguarding the keys and obtain the keys for the device being used by the drug smugglers the key is split into two parts which are stored separately in order to ensure the security of the key escrow system in these two sections the phrases or other legal order and normally a court order imply there is some other way or ways of doing a legal wiretap what is are these how do they affect the way people who trust the system of court orders to protect them feel about this escrow system the second section shows the sequence of events the law enforcer armed with his warrant attaches his headphones to the line with his croc clips remember these are the folk who couldn t cope with digital telephony and hears a load of modem like tones we are talking analogue telephony here what next what modulation scheme do these clipper boxes use is it possible to record the tones for use after the keys are obtained i thought it was quite difficult to record a modem session at some intermediate point on the line maybe they have taken a crash course in data comms and have a unit that demodulates the tones and stores the digital stream for decryption later this would still suffer from the same problems as trying to record the tones as the demodulator would not be at one end of the line if calls can t be recorded for decryption later it would be quite easy to foil the system by buying lots of clipper units these are supposed to be cheap mass market items and using them in turn how tolerant is the modulation scheme to errors these things are proposed for use by us corporations to secure their foreign offices where phone line quality may well be poor it seems hard enough to me to get digitised speech of any quality into something a modem can handle without having to add lots of error correction to keep the decryption in sync q will the devices be exportable will other devices that use the government hardware a voice encryption devices are subject to export control requirements one of the attractions of this technology is the protection it can give to u s companies operating at home and abroad with this in mind we expect export licenses will be granted on a case by case basis for u s companies seeking to use these devices to secure their own communications abroad this raises an intersting question in the uk here it is illegal to connect anything to a public telecomms network without it being approved by a body called babt it has been stated either here or in the uk telecom group that they will not approve equipment that does encryption i don t know if this is true or not but this would make a good test case perhaps friendly countries and the uk may still qualify will get to fish in the escrowed key pool as well peter ilieve peter memex co uk
sci.crypt	re the secret source of that announcement in article r hgqinndaa uwm edu rick miller rick ee uwm edu writes jbotz mtholyoke edu jurgen botz writes marc mit edu marc horowitz n nzu writes seems like sombody didn t like your snooping around marc or the more likely explanation is that marc is spoofing i sincerely doubt that denning and crew are keen enough to react that quickly and i doubt they d want to cripple their smtp server t boot marc is not spoofing try it yourself at least the commands work exactly as he described i e they do not work josh no pattern content or thing is the being who looks out from each pair of eyes and only that is important e t gendlin
sci.crypt	alternate legal wiretaps tuinstra signal ece clarkson edu soe writes it would be a strong incentive as vesselin points out for more police agencies to go rogue and try to get keys through more efficient but less constitutional means notice what the release said q suppose a law enforcement agency is conducting a wiretap on a drug smuggling ring and intercepts a conversation encrypted using the device what would they have to do to decipher the message a they would have to obtain legal authorization normally a court order to do the wiretap in the first place the clear implication is that there are legal authorizations other than a court order just how leaky are these and who knows what s in those pages that authorized the nsa there i was a cryptologic tech in the us navy ctrsn nothing big all spooks in the navy are required to know the gist of ussid the navy way of naming a particular presidential executive order it outlines what spooks can and can t do with respect to the privacy of us nationals the following information is of course unclassified the whole issue hangs about what you mean by wiretap if the signal can be detected by non intrusive means like radio listening then it may be recorded and it may be analyzed analyzed means that it may be either deciphered and or radio location may be used to locate the transmitter the catch is this any and all record of the signal and its derivatives may only be kept for a maximum of days after which they are destroyed unless permission is obtained from the us attorney general to keep them didn t you ever wonder how coast guard cutters find those drug runners in all those tens of thousands of square miles of sea even in the dark rick miller rick ee uwm edu ricxjo discus mil wi us ricxjo muelisto send a postcard get one back enposxtigu bildkarton kaj vi ricevos alion rick miller woods muskego wis usa
sci.crypt	re organized lobbying for cryptography tarl neustaedter tarl coyoacan sw stratus com wrote it means that the eff s public stance is complicated with issues irrelevant to the encryption issue per se there may well be people who care about the encryption issue who don t care to associate themselves with the network erotica issue or may even disagree with the eff s position perhaps these encryption only types would defend the digitized porn if it was posted encrypted these issues are not as seperable as you maintain
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more random presto uucp jeff w hyche writes yes clipper is a trademark of intergraph its the risc chip used in some of thier workstations i wonder what intergraph is going to do to this infringement on thier name sake probably keep quiet and take it lest they get their kneecaps busted good news ten weeks from friday will be a good day
sci.crypt	re why the clipper algorithm is secret in article apr fsl noaa gov bear kestrel fsl noaa gov bear giles writes in article c pstr lu panix com dfl panix com danny o bedlam writes the algorithm is classified because a military contract or similar government equivalent to military has been let for this proprietary design that the feds say that nsa developed is there a patent is that patent publicly available my betting is that that too is classified unless there has been a major change in the law there s no such beast as a classified patent patents exist to encourage communications and develop the state of the art while there aren t classified patents there are patent secrecy orders suppose you invent a voice scrambler for cb radio and apply for a patent the patent office decides the nsa might be interested gives them a copy of your application and you get a nice note back saying your patent application has now been classified for national security reasons and you re no longer allowed to make and sell it i m picking this example because it happened in the late s it was probably some analog scrambler and would have probably violated fcc rules anyway but it did get classified or suppose you publish a paper on your really spiffy algorithm and then file a patent application since it s been published they can t gain anything by classifying it though you can t get patents in most countries other than the us where patent laws are different obviously a system of classified patents would be highly bogus you can t sell that widget because there s a classified patent on it you re not allowed to see the patent or know who owns the design so just give us all your money and work in progress and maybe we won t throw you in jail for espionage some countries might have that kind of system but we don t have that here quite yet pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at t bell labs m holmdel nj no i m from new jersey i only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip in article c sy z td demon co uk graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes in article apr ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes thousands tens of thousands do some arithmetic please skipjack has possible keys we don t yet know if all bits count that doesn t worry me at all they re not going to cheat at something they can get caught at and key size is one of the things that can be verified externally feed lots of random key input pairs into the chip then try flipping random key bits and see what happens to the output we already know what should happen about half the output bits should vary on average from a bit key change or input change if they were out to build a weak cryptosystem it might be the case that some of the bits are much less powerful than others in the sense that they only enter into the encryption very late in the game by contrast des was designed to use each key bit as early as possible the output change rate appears as early as round again though i don t think nsa is going to cheat that crudely they re likely to get caught remember that they ve promised to let a committee of outside experts see the cryptosystem design if you assume something des like a biased subkey generation schedule will stick out like a sore thumb the committee can and should run lots of tests and retain the output this can be verified later against the chip and yes the civilian community has at least some secure storage facilities that i don t think even nsa can get into without it being noticed until fort meade gets its transporter working again oops i don t think i was supposed to talk about that the committee members can even retain secure copies of the code in two halves which you have to xor together to recover the program seriously there are i think problems with this whole scheme but the people who invented it aren t stupid and they ve been in the crypto game and the smoke and mirrors game far longer than most of us they re not going to lie in ways that can be detected easily since their credibility is the only thing they can use to sell this system if they ve lied about the civilian committee no one will believe them about the absence of other back doors if they ve lied about the key size no one will believe that they haven t copied the programming disk with the u keys if they ve lied about obvious aspects of the strength of the cryptosystem no one will believe the escrow agencies aren t in cahoots with them that isn t to say that they aren t lying about all those other things anyway and i m certainly not claiming that nsa can t build a cryptosystem with a back door that the committee can t find look how long it took for folks to believe that the s boxes weren t sabotaged it s entirely possible that the committee will release an ambiguous report for just such reasons but that s a subtle point i e one you can t explain to a senator anyway its looking like the keys and escrow arrangements are smoke and mirrors to cover the way the nsa can regenerate the key from the transmitted serial number i don t like the unit key generation process any better than you do however s and s are supposed to be under control of the same escrow agents if they can t be trusted to keep the seed values secure they can t be trusted to keep the half keys secure i still don t know if or when s and s change i thought i had seen something about them being constant but i just reread denning s technical information post and it doesn t say anything one way or the other steve bellovin
sci.crypt	re would clipper make a good cover for other encryption method bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de vesselin bontchev writes if there are many as er people in the usa who reason like the above then it should not be surprising that the current plot has been allowed to happen the willingness of the majority of the people to give up their freedom in exchange for a sense of safety is hardly limited to the usa and is an endemic problem in any human society of any appreciable size the structure of the us government does try to combat this tendency to some extent but fighting entropy is always a losing battle most people would rather have comfort than freedom the paradox is that you can t really have the former in the long term unless you have the latter one of the reasons that i probably come across to some people as a weird cross between a libertarian and an establishment tool is that i end up taking an utterly pragmatic view of government i don t get up in arms when the government fails to protect the interests of the people because in my lifetime it never has therefore i have no expectation that it will as a result i protect my own interests rather than expecting the government to be fair i will use strong cryptography when i think it is needed whether or not it is legal at the time same thing with anything else the government would rather not see in private hands that s their problem what s important to me is using the right tool for the job if it s legal so much the better if it is not but does not violate my very strong sense of personal ethics i will use it anyway as long i think it is worth it expecting the government to actually protect the interests of its citizens except by accident is utter folly even jefferson one of the major architects of the american system of government figured that in a couple hundred years it would become so corrupt and self serving that it would be time dismantle it and try again by revolution if necessary i agree and while i don t go around trying to spark one i ll certainly participate if it happens when i m around there is a reason i am such a strong supporter of individual rights while being so cynical about politics i ve already written off politics and yes this may get me in trouble some day if so so be it i drive faster than mph too amanda walker intercon systems corporation
sci.crypt	re the secret source of that announcement andrew molitor amolitor nmsu edu wrote monitor my phonecalls monitor usenet provide only cryptosystems they can easily crack etc etc this is not to say that they don t they might but you don t know that they do and you have no evidence that they do for almost all values of you it follows therefore that for most values of you your claims about the nsa border on paranoia andrew now i wouldn t be the one to claim that you are injecting some disinformation into the net andrew but paranoia refers to unwarranted or excessive suspicions or fear not those that have reasonable roots let s start with looking at the professionals the nsa itself its birth was by secret executive order by harry s truman in until even not even one word of this executive order chartering the nsa was sealed paranoia right on the outside of the nsa complex is a ten foot cyclone fence with multiple rows of barbed wire with high voltage complete with signs prohibiting even making sketches under penalty of the internal security act the area is completely scanned by closed circuit television more paranoia these are professionals maybe they know something we don t eh do you think it would have helped admiral yamamoto if the japanese had been a little more paranoid of their purple cipher or maybe the germans should have been a little more paranoid about their engima with respect to turing and the british how about the cracking of the zimmerman telegram would a little more paranoia have helped the germans here maybe the nsa should have been a little more paranoid about emma woikin or joseph sidney petersen jr or maybe you want to talk about macmillan publishers cooperation with the cia and nsa to suppress yardley s japanese diplomatic secrets or even kahn s the codebreakers paranoia right the most popular cipher systems in captured soviet spies was the one time pad even with the necessity of keeping incriminating evidence about is known to be the only proven unbreakable system soviet paranoia right and what do you think the nsa does with its wullenwebers and huge rhombics pointed embassy row and their sites near satellite uplink and downlink sites duh when i worked in a classified mitre communications lab at one time even with a secret clearance i had to be escorted to the toilet and the entire site was built into a mosler type vault with very thick bomb proof door mitre paranoia i could cite probably a hundred more facts which all support as best hypothesis the notion that the nsa is grabbing as much as it can as fast as it can one would be a fool to ignore the pattern of facts and conclude that they were random and we know the government is violent even against children as recent events prove judge william sessions is a disgrace but a solemn warning to those who ignore the web of evidence that our government institutions have in their contempt for our civil rights and of course we have to err somewhat on the excessive side of caution because that does much less harm than erring on the reckless side as member of the crew of the uss liberty might aver i might suggest andrew that you read kahn s codebreakers and bamford s puzzle palace and come back with some more facts to support your sheepish acquiescence to authority grady netcom com ef e ad d d c f fc ac f d f e f
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful shirriff sprite berkeley edu ken shirriff writes it seems likely to me that that a large subset of encrypted communications would be archived to tape so they could be read if sometime in the future probable cause arises and a warrant is obtained i can even imagine this being found legal and constitutional since nothing is actually listened to until a valid warrant is issued and the keys are obtained imagine archiving all pay phone conversations so if someone turns out to be a drug dealer you can listen to all their past drug deals and archive calls to from suspected mafia members potential terrorists radicals etc imagine the convenience for the police of being able to get a warrant now and listening to all the calls the world trade center bombers made in the past year imagine if this were available during the elections instead of clumsily searching through the clinton passport file they could have just done a voice grep as someone stated earlier on his telephone conversations for the last years i m not a lawyer and i don t even play one on tv but intuitively there s something wrong with having one s words archived for possible future use against you this possibility frightens me more than any of the talk about the clipper chip right to cryptography etc since archiving would be such a powerful tool and so easy to do why wouldn t it happen i m afraid it just might nhy nina h yuan it s a miracle that curiosity harvard college survives formal education yuan husc harvard edu albert einstein
sci.crypt	re what the clipper nay sayers sound like to me in article qsvfcinnq v dns nmsu edu amolitor moink nmsu edu andrew molitor writes a lot of this article has been deleted for space look this is clearly the first step toward outlawing our own screw thread specifications if this madness isn t fought tooth and nail every step of the way it ll be a crime to use screw threads other than those our fearless leaders so graciously define for us the clipper standard is the first step toward outlawing other strong encryption standards if the government didn t intend to outlaw other forms of encryption than clipper is just a big waste of time and money why you ask because anyone who is transferring data that any government agency could use against him her would be a total fool to use the clipper system so why add the backdoor key if all lawbreakers will use alternate encryption methods because they assume they can just do away with everything else i for one am planning on boycotting any equipment that contains clipper technology
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article bontchev fbihh bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de writes and some people thought that i am exaggerating when claiming that the cripple chip is just a first step in a totalitarian plot against the civil liberties in the usa it seems that i ve even been an optimist the things are happening even faster than i expected that s another of the dirty tricks they used to apply on us under the communist regime do something secret then tell the people about is after the fact when nothing can be done any more and of course explaining them how much better the situation is now in my previous messages i wrote that the americans should wake up and fight against the new proposal now it seems to me that it is already too late it has already happened the civil liberties have been violated no stollen from the american people while the most part of this people has been sleeping happily too sad as one of the happily sleeping people i would just like to ask this aren t people just slightly overreacting to this or are we all of a sudden going to draw parallels to nazi germany and communist russia the point of the matter is that yes this is a serious problem but it is not the end of the world guess what we re doing something now you can t do in a communist country or nazi germany we re complaining about it or rather you re complaining about it and nobody is shooting at us or rather if they re shooting at me they have real bad aim guess what people you live in one of the few countries in the world where a person can complain without getting shot at people are always complaining that somebody did this wrong or somebody did that wrong or whatever sit down and figure out two things what have they done right how much worse can it get and you ll find that you and i are pretty damn lucky so let s talk about it get some action going decide what s going on but let s not overreact regards vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center university of hamburg tel fax fachbereich informatik agn pgp public key available on request vogt koelln strasse rm c e mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de d hamburg germany jerry han crc doc div of behavioural research jhan debra dgbt doc ca these are my opinions and my opinions only a proud and frozen member of the mighty warriors band memories of those i ve left behind still ringing in my ears genesis
sci.crypt	re organized lobbying for cryptography generally an organization has influence in proportion to the narrowness of its objectives the number of members the strength of belief of its members this is why the pro and anti abortion groups are so strong narrow objectives lots of interested members who are real passionate for this reason mixing with the nra is probably a bad idea it diffuses the interests of both groups it may well diminish the passion index of the combined organization it is not clear it would greatly enlarge the nra so i believe a new organization which may cooperate with nra where the two organization s interest coincide is the optimum strategy lew lew glendenning rlglende netcom com perspective is worth iq points niels bohr or somebody like that
sci.crypt	re do we need the clipper for cheap security gtoal gtoal com graham toal writes can someone tell me if hardware compression is or is not needed to run digital speech down k i think it is i ve heard it s not lets say bit samples would raw data at the corresponding sampling rate be usable if not how fancy does the compression need to be a good vocoder like ours will give you bits per second locked at full rate it s a variable rate voice activity vocoder if you want less quality cut that to bps half rate at full rate variable you could put two full duplex conversations on a v bis modem this requires a dsp or asics though an rs has a cpu that could probably do it in real time because it has the add and multiply instruction and a few other dsp things if you want to do speech in real time you need about samples a second for not very good voice with your bit samples isdn is bit samples a second which is kbps you could do a fast compression on that to get it down to kbps which is just about v bis the quality at this point is very bleah but it should work now add in the time for your encryption method you re going to need sampling hardware which is no problem on a new mac an amiga or a pc with a soundblaster card just because they re so popular and cheap you could also build a simple adc the problem with the soundblaster is that it doesn t seem to be full duplex you can t sample and play backq at the same time making a two way conversation a bit tough the special hardware or a more capable sound card may be required the only thing that worries me is that compression the soundblaster can do it automatically in hardware but other than that i don t have a good feel for how processor intensive it is so i can t estimate how fast a pc you d need not all men who drink are poets some of us drink because we are not poets
sci.crypt	re fighting the clipper initiative in article strnlghtc toc kiu netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes the federal reserve open market committee has successfully kept decisions from leaking for the statutory period until publication how are you sure of that weren t there some recent studies that found corelations between not yet announced decisions and market changes aren t there continuing early rumors of their deliberations even the department of agriculture has successfully kept crop forecasts from leaking prematurely sheesh remember the big scandal a year or two or ago about exactly such leaks vernon schryver vjs sgi com
sci.crypt	re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine in article tom apr amber ssd csd harris com tom ssd csd harris com tom horsley writes this isn t intended to be a flame or anything i am just really curious how to manufacture these things while still maintaining the key escrow security without simply saying trust the manufacturer they won t look without getting into the really thorny questions about reverse engineering and all of that let me just point out that there already exist gate arrays and suchlike that have what s known as a security fuse which can be programmed after you ve verified all other programming this makes it impossible to read out the programming of the device again ignoring the reverse engineering questions speaking from experience here i had to completely reinvent one of my designs some six or seven years ago when the disk file was zapped the backups were all bad and the devices were unreadable because of the security fuses made me appreciate the value of printouts so on this point at least there s not so much worry but whether or not we can get the chips made reliably and securely is really secondary to the question of whether use of the chip is itself likely to be secure methinks robert bickford a hacker is any person who derives joy from rab well sf ca us discovering ways to circumvent limitations rab i recognize that a class of criminals and juvenile delinquents has taken to calling themselves hackers but i consider them irrelevant to the true meaning of the word just as the mafia calls themselves businessmen but nobody pays that fact any attention rab
sci.crypt	i don t have ftp live in canada how do i get rsa ras my ataris i don t have ftp and i live in canada this means that it would be illeagle for a u s citizen to send the program to me their gigerment wishes to restrict its dispersil but someone in europe must have ported a coppy of rsa to the atarist by now how do i get a coppy of the rsa from a non ftp news feed allan brockman ab ersys edmonton ab ca
sci.crypt	re the clipper chip a technical summary in article apr guvax acc georgetown edu denning guvax acc georgetown edu writes prof denning s description of skipjack mostly omitted chip structure the clipper chip contains a classified bit block encryption algorithm called skipjack the algorithm uses bit keys compared with for the des and has rounds of scrambling compared with for the des it supports all des modes of operation throughput is mbits a second f an bit family key that is common to all chips n a bit serial number u an bit secret key that unlocks all messages encrypted with the chip the key k and message stream m i e digitized voice are then fed into the clipper chip to produce two values e m k the encrypted message stream and e e k u n f a law enforcement block three questions it looks like each bits of input gives you bits of output e m k bits e k u e bits bits e e k u n f e bits bits do you really need to transmit all bits each time or do you only transmit the bits of wiretap block at the beginning all would be really obnoxious for bandwidth limited applications like cellular phones or even regular phones over how do the des modes interact with the two part output do the various feedback modes only apply to the message block or also to the wiretap block or if the wiretap block is only transmitted at the beginning does it get incorporated into everything through feedback modes but not during ecb mode does the clipper chip check the wiretap block itself does the block have to be present at all since the receiving chip doesn t know the transmitter s u it presumably can t check the validity of e k u so it s limited to checking the form of the wiretap block and maybe checking the serial number for reasonableness unless there s some sort of back door structure that lets it recognize a valid e k u in that case can you replace the wiretap block with a different wiretap block presumably an old valid one to avoid attracting attention the chip won t do it so you postprocess the output regular people can do one with their own serial number and a dummy key paranoid people can use someone else s serial number on the other hand if i could think of that solution so easily presumably the nsa could too have they done something to block it like use message encryption that s really e m k u n thanks pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at t bell labs m holmdel nj no i m from new jersey i only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more david sternlight writes i d trust something from the nsa long before i d trust something from some swiss or anbody japanese what this is an incredible statement the nsa tried to suppress public key crypto and rsa and yet they claim to encourage use of strong crypto for us citizens would you trust a black box from the nsa versus an open system from elsewhere karl l barrus elee sf menudo uh edu preferred address barrus tree egr uh edu nextmail karl l barrus elee sf menudo uh edu preferred address barrus tree egr uh edu nextmail
sci.crypt	re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip i mean if we can imagine the machine that does trial nanosecond we can imagine the storage medium that could index and archive it i think you d have to do some massive data compression just to fit a bit of key information on each primary particle of the known universe but hey it s fun to imagine mjr
sci.crypt	freely distributable public key cryptography c code where do you know of any freely distributable c or c code for public key cryptography such as rsa i ve tried various archie searches to no avail thanks dan
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article c so hxv demon co uk graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes in article rwing uucp pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes if the clinton clipper is so very good why not make its algrithm public so many people can exchange ideas and examine it rather than a few isolated respected experts respected by whom for what perhaps a one more time if they released the algorithm it would be possible for someone to come up with an implementation which was identical but lacking an escrowed key note that the press announcement mentioned that the algorithm was being kept secret for security of the key escrow system in this case security means an escrowed key for every clipper chip assuming you believed all that is said about the effective of the algorithm and the escrow system which would you buy a chip from firm a with the escrowed key b second source chip from reputable firm b with no key in government escrow there would obviously be powerful economic incentives for a second source non escrowed vendor
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more andersom spot colorado edu marc anderson writes methods this year s crime bill will have teeth not bare gums clinton said in particular his administration will place strict controls on data formats and protocols and require the registration of so called cryptographic keys in the hope of denying drug dealers the ability to communicate in secret clinton said the approach could be used for crackdowns on other forms of underground economic activity such as the deficit causing tax evaders who live in luxury at the expense of our grandchildren and some people thought that i am exaggerating when claiming that the cripple chip is just a first step in a totalitarian plot against the civil liberties in the usa it seems that i ve even been an optimist the things are happening even faster than i expected that s another of the dirty tricks they used to apply on us under the communist regime do something secret then tell the people about is after the fact when nothing can be done any more and of course explaining them how much better the situation is now in my previous messages i wrote that the americans should wake up and fight against the new proposal now it seems to me that it is already too late it has already happened the civil liberties have been violated no stollen from the american people while the most part of this people has been sleeping happily too sad regards vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center university of hamburg tel fax fachbereich informatik agn pgp public key available on request vogt koelln strasse rm c e mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de d hamburg germany
sci.crypt	re would clipper make a good cover for other encryption method strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes some of the more notorious self styled dissidents here for example have already got their heads so high above the tall grass that they d have little chance of getting a clearance if there are many as er people in the usa who reason like the above then it should not be surprising that the current plot has been allowed to happen regards vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center university of hamburg tel fax fachbereich informatik agn pgp public key available on request vogt koelln strasse rm c e mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de d hamburg germany
sci.crypt	re the secret source of that announcement i guess the cryptowranglers read this group too but of course i knew that because it is so easy to do there is not a single doubt in my mind that every byte that passes every significant gateway or bone is captured for the colligation of data about maybe your name is here maybe we should start a newsgroup for the distribution of encrypted posts intended of members of affinity groups with a shared private key for example at the coming up cypherpunks meeting a private key corresponding to that particular meeting could be passed out by a moderator minutes followup comments to other participants and so on could be posted to the alt encrypted group for the use of the people who attended communiques intended by the group for non attendees could of course just be signed using the private key but otherwises not encrypted starting a alt encrypted newsgroup rather than just maintaining mailing lists is better for several reasons first it would be easier to archive for people who might join a group late and who might like to easily read earlier posts second traffic analysis to know exactly to whom an affinity message is directed would be foiled three a newsgroup is much more public and would serve to publicize available privacy measures on the internet and it would be fun to accumulate a secret keyring full of such keys it beats giving out t shirts as a door prize we could send a copy of alt encrypted directly to judge william sessions or admiral studeman to save them the time of having it collected for them grady netcom com ef e ad d d c f fc ac f d f e f
sci.crypt	re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only in article strnlghtc t o k p netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes actually the govrnment is telling you that if you want to use their product the manufacturer actually better yet some trusted pair of escrow agencies has to have the key most of us already are in this situation our car makers have keys to our cars or can get them quickly from the vin number and i have no doubt that if presented with a court order they d surrender copies to the government chances are that many locksmiths have the code numbers for house locks they ve installed and in an emergency can cut keys thus they d also provide such keys to the government pursuant to a court order of course nothing prevents you from buying a new lock with cash and installing it yourself even modifying the core to match some arbitrary key is not difficult to do at home i once knew someone who had fixed his locks in this way his house office and cars all took the same key which he took good care of the state has no difficulty gaining access to your safe deposit box if they have a court order bad analogy very bad yours that is have you ever had a safety deposit box they work on a two key system the bank clerk has one and you have the other they are different keys the bank does not keep a copy of your key if you lose it they have to drill out the lock and replace the door this is a time consuming and expensive process which they will be happy to charge to your account this process is exactly analogous to having a private key which is not in a escrow system and the state having to crack your cipher to get the data please do not use false analogies peter trei ptrei mitre org
sci.crypt	re organized lobbying for cryptography in article apr husc harvard edu kubo zariski harvard edu tal kubo writes having mentioned the possible dangers of unwelcome political associations i would be remiss not to suggest something in the opposite direction gathering the support of the nra by emphasizing the rkba side of the issue as well as the first amendment side tal kubo math harvard edu hmmm this gave me an interesting idea how about this argument second amendment gives us the right to keep and bear arms strong cryptography is arms according to the u s government that s why it s so hard to export therefore we have a constituitional right to strong cryptography q e d however it s likely to be as hard or harder to exercise this right as it is getting to exercise the other rights that the government is slowly restricting maybe the nra would be the best existing organization although i think a new one might be better but perhaps would take too long to start up i would certainly join from the electronic desk of bob langford health sciences computing fax virginia commonwealth university e mail langford gems vcu edu or langford vcuvax for bitnet
sci.crypt	re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip thousands tens of thousands do some arithmetic please skipjack has possible keys we don t yet know if all bits count that doesn t worry me at all they re not going to cheat at something they can get caught at and key size is one of the things that can be verified externally feed lots of random key input pairs into the chip then see what happens to the output if the device is designed to use the key that s registered with the feds i don t see how you can feed it a different key if the user can change the key to any of the possibilities the main reason for regarding this proposal as unacceptable disappears
sci.crypt	re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip i don t like the unit key generation process any better than you do however s and s are supposed to be under control of the same escrow agents if they can t be trusted to keep the seed values secure they can t be trusted to keep the half keys secure i hope there is something i don t understand about this system but can someone tell me how these chips are going to be manufactured while maintaining each half key under total control of the separate escrow agencies don t both halfs of the key have to come together in some form at the time the chip is constructed or is it built like a fusable prom with the chip being sent to the st escrow agency to program its key then the nd agency to program its key but who invents the safeguards that prevent the nd agency from reading the information already programmed by the st this isn t intended to be a flame or anything i am just really curious how to manufacture these things while still maintaining the key escrow security without simply saying trust the manufacturer they won t look domain tahorsley csd harris com usmail tom horsley uucp uunet hcx tahorsley kingbird circle delray beach fl censorship is the only form of obscenity wait i forgot government tobacco subsidies
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article apr rick dgbt doc ca jhan debra dgbt doc ca jerry han writes as one of the happily sleeping people i would just like to ask this aren t people just slightly overreacting to this or are we all of a sudden going to draw parallels to nazi germany and communist russia the point of the matter is that yes this is a serious problem but it is not the end of the world guess what we re doing something now you can t do in a communist country or nazi germany we re complaining about it or rather you re complaining about it and nobody is shooting at us or rather if they re shooting at me they have real bad aim guess what people you live in one of the few countries in the world where a person can complain without getting shot at people are always complaining that somebody did this wrong or somebody did that wrong or whatever sit down and figure out two things what have they done right how much worse can it get and you ll find that you and i are pretty damn lucky so let s talk about it get some action going decide what s going on but let s not overreact us having the liberties to talk about this doesn t make the problem go away it doesn t make it right rather the opposite if we do not do anything about it you can bet it s going to get worse angel foghorn leghorn coe northeastern edu btw these are my opinions and not that of any other entity my god its full of stars dave i don t know about you but we ve got company epidemic
sci.crypt	re organized lobbying for cryptography in article r jgbinn i eli cs yale edu jgfoot minerva cis yale edu writes tarl neustaedter tarl coyoacan sw stratus com wrote it means that the eff s public stance is complicated with issues irrelevant to the encryption issue per se there may well be people who care about the encryption issue who don t care to associate themselves with the network erotica issue or may even disagree with the eff s position perhaps these encryption only types would defend the digitized porn if it was posted encrypted these issues are not as seperable as you maintain now why would anyone post anything encrypted encryption is only of use between persons who know how to decrypt the data and why should i care what other people look at what does concern me is the continued erosion of my constitutional rights amendments i ii iv and v to note a few shaun p hughes facts are stupid things sphughes sfsuvax sfsu edu ronald reagan republican national finger for pgp public key convention
sci.crypt	re organized lobbying for cryptography shaun p hughes sphughes sfsuvax sfsu edu wrote in article r jgbinn i eli cs yale edu jgfoot minerva cis yale edu writes deletion perhaps these encryption only types would defend the digitized porn if it was posted encrypted these issues are not as seperable as you maintain now why would anyone post anything encrypted encryption is only of use between persons who know how to decrypt the data and why should i care what other people look at i was responding to another person tarl neustaedter who held that the eff wasn t the best organization to fight for crytography rights since the eff also supports the right to distribute pornography over the internet something some crypto people might object to in other words he s implying that there are people who will protect any speech just as long as it is encrypted
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more agreed this is like the bay of pigs fiasco planned by the eisenhower administration but given the final green light by kennedy to be sure hen it all went down kennedy was at least man enough to take full responsibility which is not what i expect from slick willie clinton
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article apr rick dgbt doc ca jhan debra dgbt doc ca jerry han writes in article bontchev fbihh as one of the happily sleeping people i would just like to ask this aren t people just slightly overreacting to this or are we all of a sudden going to draw parallels to nazi germany and communist russia yes reasonable parallels though i don t think russia ever claimed to be communist the point of the matter is that yes this is a serious problem but it is not the end of the world guess what we re doing something now you can t do in a communist country or nazi germany we re complaining about i must protest your in a communist country how do you know there haven t been any and are unlikely to ever be any in some socialist dictatorships you can t whilst in some socialist democracies such as france or australia you can of course some people may disagree about france australia being socialist it or rather you re complaining about it and nobody is shooting at us yet or rather if they re shooting at me they have real bad aim guess what people you live in one of the few countries in the world where a person can complain without getting shot at in some circumstances i was at a public meeting last night in the usa where a protester who was very nice and calm and just said before the speaker started to beware of his opinions was forced out of the meeting by two armed policemen there are a lot of things that one cannot do in the usa you may not notice them but as an australian visitor i notice them people are always complaining that somebody did this wrong or somebody did that wrong or whatever sit down and figure out two things what have they done right how much worse can it get and you ll find that you and i are pretty damn lucky yes we are lucky at the moment i hope that is still true in a few years time because it didn t just happen it required concious effort so let s talk about it get some action going decide what s going on but let s not overreact of course don t over react but don t under react andrew disclaimer all my opinions are my own and do not represent the society for the conservation of momentum or any other group i hope i don t lose my student visa as a result of these opinions andrew conway arc leland stanford edu phone usa
sci.crypt	re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip in article apr ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes remember that they ve promised to let a committee of outside experts see the cryptosystem design i hope there are some silicon jocks on the committee who can follow the algorithm through to hardware while i doubt the nsa would pull any monkey business on this point they have to expect that the chip will be reverse engineered sooner or later it s an obvious opportunity to introduce additional holes steve bellovin pgp key by finger or e mail eli ebrandt jarthur claremont edu
sci.crypt	re organized lobbying for cryptography langford gems vcu edu writes in article apr husc harvard edu kubo zariski harvard edu tal kubo writes having mentioned the possible dangers of unwelcome political associations i would be remiss not to suggest something in the opposite direction gathering the support of the nra by emphasizing the rkba side of the issue as well as the first amendment side hmmm this gave me an interesting idea how about this argument second amendment gives us the right to keep and bear arms strong cryptography is arms according to the u s government that s why it s so hard to export therefore we have a constituitional right to strong cryptography q e d maybe the nra would be the best existing organization i think a new organization would be a much better idea as the nra carries as much undesireable baggage for me as the eff and cpsr do for others are any hot shot reputable organizers reading this message if an effective group comes into existence it can count on me signing up george mitchell george tessi com
sci.crypt	i have seen the lobby and it is us in article apr gems vcu edu langford gems vcu edu writes however it s likely to be as hard or harder to exercise this right as it is getting to exercise the other rights that the government is slowly restricting maybe the nra would be the best existing organization although i think a new one might be better but perhaps would take too long to start up i would certainly join the nra is successful because among a number of things on the drop of a hat they can get a congresspersons office flooded with postcards faxes and phone calls certainly with our way cool internet powers of organization we can act in the same way if such action is appropriate as long as we are kept informed of events anyone on this bboard can make a call to action hopefully we re a strong enough community to act on those calls i realize this is a little optomistic and i m glad eff is working in the loop on these issues but don t underestimate the potential of the net for political action adam i speak for myself
sci.crypt	re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip in article apr ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes in article c sy z td demon co uk graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes in article apr ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes thousands tens of thousands do some arithmetic please skipjack has possible keys we don t yet know if all bits count that doesn t worry me at all they re not going to cheat at something they can get caught at and key size is one of the things that can be verified externally feed lots of random key input pairs into the chip then try flipping random key bits and see what happens to the output we already know what should happen about half the output bits should vary on average from a bit key change or input change if they were out to build a weak cryptosystem it might be the case that some of the bits are much less powerful than others in the sense that they only enter into the encryption very late in the game by contrast des was designed to use each key bit as early as possible the output change rate appears as early as round again though i don t think nsa is going to cheat that crudely they re likely to get caught consider a cryptosytem that starts out by xoring bits and and not using either of these bits except through this xor this system makes early use of every bit but an exhaustive key search would now only have keys to search your test by varying single key bits wouldn t turn up anything interesting remember that they ve promised to let a committee of outside experts see the cryptosystem design if you assume something des like a biased subkey generation schedule will stick out like a sore thumb the algorithm i suggest above would stick out like a sore thumb but i m sure i could design a system with a more subtle key redundancy which was well hidden but would still make an exhaustive key search take far less than encryptions i don t believe your claim that the real keysize can be verified externally andy latto andyl harlequin com
sci.crypt	re do we need the clipper for cheap security in article aa pizzabox demon co uk gtoal gtoal com graham toal writes can someone tell me if hardware compression is or is not needed to run digital speech down k i think it is i ve heard it s not lets say bit samples would raw data at the corresponding sampling rate be usable if not how fancy does the compression need to be as far as i know isdn call it swissnet here and it s being plugged in it s bit hz gives you one channel of kbit sec i guess you should not go below a sampling rate of hz if you want to have same quality as on an analog line anybody knows compression algorithms factors for voice greetings germano caronni instruments register only through things they re designed to register space still contains infinite unknowns pgp key id germano caronni caronni nessie cs id ethz ch fd ccf f da ea c dd f
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryp gtoal gtoal com graham toal writes whatever happens though the effect of this new chip will be to make private crypto stand out like a sore thumb only if this chip catches on which means alternatives have to be developed which will only happen if clipper is discredited tony lezard is tony mantis co uk pgp public key available from key or tony mantis co uk uknet ac uk servers such as pgp public keys demon co uk or even arl phx cam ac uk c f bbea c b cf c a fa
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption bena dec cs monash edu au ben aveling writes don t forget you are in the country that wouldn t let the russians buy apple ii s because of security concerns that s nothing they wouldn t let the british buy inmos transputer systems because of security concerns and we designed the damn things mathew
sci.crypt	new encryption as promised i spoke today with the company mentioned in a washington times article about the clipper chip announcement the name of the company is secure communicatiions technology information will be given at the end of this message on how to contact them basically they are disturbed about the announcement for many reasons that we are more specifically however mr bryen of secure communications brought to light many points that might interest most of the readers his belief is that at t was made known of the clipper well before the rest of the industry this is for several reasons several of which are a company of at t s size could never be able to make a decision to use the new chip on the same day it was announced months ago they proposed using their own chip for at t s secure telephone devices at t basically blew them off as being not interested at all this stuck them as strange until now also i spoke with art melnick their cryptographer he expressed several concerns over the new clipper chip the obvious backdoor will be able to let many people decrypt the code once the key is released to authorities the security of the crypto system is lost forever these keys can end up in the hands of any agency of the government the fact that the escrowed keys never change means that the algorithm is vulnerable over time to an attacker the classified algorithm may hide another backdoor but he feels that it is probably to keep people from forging fake serial numbers or changing the keys themselves additionally he feels that the nsa has probably spent enough time and money in working on a way to keep this chip from being reversed engineered that he feels that reverse engineering it will be very difficult to do he feels that they have developed a suitable technique to protect the chip from this attack also he feels that the chip is hardware encoded with the algorithm and not microcoded onto the chip additonally i spoke with mr melnick about their algorithm he couldn t tell me much about their new agorithm because it hasn t been patented yet however he told me a little the algorithm will be released for public review after patents have been granted for it this is so the crypto community can see that it is secure the algorithm is called nea for new encryption algorithm the details were sketchy because now it is held as a trade secret until the patent was issued but i was told that it will incorporate the following it will have fast encryption of data exact specs not given but mr melnick stated much faster than what an rs can put out it is a symmetric cipher just like idea and des it will use bit data blocks for encryption like des and idea the key length was not given to me but mr melnick states that it is adujustable and is more than adequate for security the algorithm is written in c and assembler in software form and can be ported to many platforms unlike the the clipper chip which is hardware only and cannot be made into software this i consider a definite plus for the nea for widespread use the algorithm will accomodate public key distribution techniques such as rsa or diffie hellman this will also be supported in the hardware chip right now the projected cost of the nea chip will be about dollars for each clipper will run each chip that is if it is produced enough which probably won t happen they currently sell a program called c com that uses the algorithm and a special streaming protocol that does not divide the encrypted data into blocks this could prevent plaintext attacks if you know what the block header is this program operates at all supported rs speeds and uses the software implementation of the algorithm most importantly it does not have a backdoor right now the company is afraid that the new clipper chip will put them out of business this is a very real possibility so they really need help in stopping the clipper chip from becoming a standard if you want to contact them they can be reached at secure communications technology georgia ave suite silver spring md i talked to mr bryen who represents the company he can answer any questions you have any factual errors occurring in this write up are my own and i apologize for them ahead of time psionic wam umd edu fight the wiretap chip ask me how c craig h rowland amiga pgp key available those who would give up liberty for by request security deserve neither a
sci.crypt	re do we need the clipper for cheap security gtoal gtoal com graham toal writes can someone tell me if hardware compression is or is not needed to run digital speech down k i think it is i ve heard it s not lets say bit samples would raw data at the corresponding sampling rate be usable if not how fancy does the compression need to be note i am not a cable freak so i might have completely misunderstood what you said also my math is frequently noted for being wrong so you ll better check the calculations yourself i assume that k means k bits so if we assume one start and one stopbit and no protocol overhead the effective number of bytes per second is k let s also assume that you do not want to transmit your speech in stereo so that you can send samples sec this corresponds to a nyquist frequency of hz which should be too low especially if you think about the bit low quality sound furthermore your d a converter will probably not present you with a signal that has been cut off at hz but will instead alias in all the higher frequencies although you can definitely build a filter to overcome that problem on the other hand speech should be easily compressible for example you could form power spectra or you could simply band pass filter and then linearize the fourier transforms it won t be cd quality sound but it ll be discernible the power spectrum method is very good in that respect i have once programmed such a software compressor and compression rates of with relative errors due to linearization of less than were common although i must say that these were musical sounds not speech have fun stephan neuhaus informatik uni kl de sig closed for inventory please leave your pickaxe outside pgp public key available on request note the expiration date
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article apr chpc org rboudrie chpc org rob boudrie writes in article c so hxv demon co uk graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes in article rwing uucp pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes if the clinton clipper is so very good why not make its algrithm public so many people can exchange ideas and examine it rather than a few isolated respected experts respected by whom for what perhaps a one more time if they released the algorithm it would be possible for someone to come up with an implementation which was identical but lacking an escrowed key note that the press announcement mentioned that the algorithm was being kept secret for security of the key escrow system in this case security means an escrowed key for every clipper chip assuming you believed all that is said about the effective of the algorithm and the escrow system which would you buy a chip from firm a with the escrowed key b second source chip from reputable firm b with no key in government escrow there would obviously be powerful economic incentives for a second source non escrowed vendor but what about second sources for pin compatible non clipper algorithm chips that also have escrowed keys if a reputable firm produces a chip with escrowed key that is a pop in replacement for the clipper chip in my phone and uses an algorithm that is widely known and evaluated and trusted then what s the problem the clipper is going to be reverse engineered anyway by any organization with sufficient resources can you say billions of cocaine dollars so those drug dealers they re so worried about will be slipping through the cracks we law abiding non incredibly wealthy citizens naturally will not have this recourse but claiming that the algorithm can t be released to prevent people from using non key escrowed chips is plain deceitful analysis of the chip output will provide information on the necessary headers and whatnot so the bad guys could build chips using a different algorithm and still not escrow their keys or they could just buy bunches of cheap phones at k mart every week and play swap the clipper chip with their cellular phone every day michael t palmer a man is crazy who writes a secret in any m t palmer larc nasa gov other way than one which will conceal it ripem key on server from the vulgar roger bacon
sci.crypt	re how to detect use of an illegal cipher as for my impressions of the whole scheme it seems that instead of trying to ban strong crypto they are trying to co opt it their contention that they need to keep the algorythm secret to protect the security of the key registration suggests possible inherent weakness to the algorythm more likely is that they dont want anyone constructing black market devices which dont have the keys registered anyone else notice that in their q a session they preventing black market chips w non escrowed keys is exactly what they mean by protecting the security of the key escrow system there are two parts to the security of such a system a preventing decruption by unauthorized personel b assuring that the gummit can always decrypt clipper traffic when it authorizes itself to do so of course the ministry of propoganda will do a lot of tallking about a and very little about b rob boudrie rboudrie chpc org ps anyone care to guess what encryption scheme the gov t is using on its newly formed database of anarch cryptists who oppose this entire lunacy
sci.crypt	re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only in r l inn gq senator bedfellow mit edu jfc athena mit edu john f carr writes in most cases information you come by properly is yours to use as you wish but there are certainly exceptions if you write a paper which includes sufficiently detailed information on how to build a nuclear weapon it is classified as i understand the law nuclear weapons design is automatically classified even if you do the work yourself i believe you are then not allowed to read your own paper this has now been thrown out by the courts the progressive case a less serious example if you tell drivers about a speed trap they are about to run into you can be fined even though you might argue that you broke no law when you discovered the location of the policeman the charge is interfering with a police officer which is quite similar what you would be doing by reverse engineering the clipper chip this is outright illegal it does violate the first amendment if you would give a case in which your speed trap example has been upheld by the courts arthur l rubin a rubin dsg dse beckman com work beckman instruments brea mcimail com compuserve com arthur pnet cts com personal my opinions are my own and do not represent those of my employer
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in strnlghtc uij t netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes in article elee sf apr menudo menudo uh edu elee sf menudo menudo uh edu karl barrus writes would you trust a black box from the nsa versus an open system from elsewhere absolutely if i were assured by someone i trusted that the black box was more secure i have nothing to conceal from the government but i would like to be sure that any russian japanese french or other competitors for my services can t read my traffic i d like to be sure that competitive bid information was safe from commercial competitors and foreign governments which would aid them i believe the nsa has identical motivations with respect to my activities the president and many other senior government officials have made it very clear that they share these motivations thus i d trust them on the coincidence of interests argument as well as on a basic trust in their professionalism and a high confidence in their skills david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted nothing but errors and omissions here arthur l rubin a rubin dsg dse beckman com work beckman instruments brea mcimail com compuserve com arthur pnet cts com personal my opinions are my own and do not represent those of my employer
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption in article apr clarinet com sci crypt alt security comp org eff talk comp security misc comp org acm comp org ieee brad clarinet com brad templeton writes let s assume for the moment that the system really is secure unless you get both halves of the encryption key from the two independent escrow houses let s say you even trust the escrow houses one is the aclu and the other is the eff and i m not entirely joking about those two names the problem with let s assume reasoning is that taken to the extreme and you re close you arrive at let s assume this is perfectly ok the assumptions you make are big ones if the system is really secure then why does the government have to keep the algorithm secret there are plenty of encryption algorithms that don t depend upon nondisclosure to be secure so why in the world use one that does there are reasons of course but i certainly can t think of any honest ones next you assume we can trust the escrow houses but the last time i checked every single branch of government has experienced unauthorized disclosure corruption and even fabrication of supposedly secure data the govt is saying yeah but now we re serious so you can trust us bullcrypt and finally although you didn t state it explicitly you implicitly assume that the warrant mechanism in this country is safe and reasonable the case in ventura county of a man shot and killed by officers serving a deliberately fraudulant warrant tells me that the govt has a long ways to go on this score remember that all this is to catch the drug dealers right as others have pointed out the current proposal will if deployed render truly secure encryption much more expensive and inconvenient than uncle sam s brand who will be able to afford and be sufficiently motivated to purchase this expensive inconvenient higher protection somebody with lots of extra cash the following is more true than ever when strong encryption is outlawed only outlaws will have strong encryption mel beckman internet mbeckman mbeckman com beckman software engineering compuserve ventura ca voice fax you can observe a lot just by watching yogi bera
sci.crypt	re an open letter to mr clinton in article strnlghtc m cv hx netcom com sci crypt strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes here s a simple way to convert the clipper proposal to an unexceptionable one make it voluntary that is you get high quality secure nsa classified technology if you agree to escrow your key otherwise you are on your own david as an economist i m sure you can see the flaws in this logic if the naive market is flooded with proprietary but weak encryption then truly strong encryption will be unable to compete suppose the govt had a secret tv broadcast standard and then sold tvs below cost private industry has a better standard but it s not as widespread due to the govt early flooding of the market with cheap proprietary sets even though the industry s technology is better the programming is being broadcast to the govt s unduplicatable standard who could compete the other flaw of course is that making something voluntary today ensures that it will be voluntary in the future i went to renew my ca drivers license last week and was required not only to give my ssn but to produce an ssn card to veryify the number note that a federal law once said that no state or local govt could ever require the use of ssns for drivers license registration specifically i do not trust the govt that says trust me on this even though we could have an arrangement that doesn t require your trust something is big time fishy if you look more carefully you ll see it mel mel beckman internet mbeckman mbeckman com beckman software engineering compuserve ventura ca voice fax you can observe a lot just by watching yogi bera
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more it might be nice to cut out the ad hominem attacks on prof denning mr sternlight etc if you have something objective to say about their views go ahead and say it subject to point personal attacks reflect more on the attacker more than on the attackee throw light not heat restrict the discussion to appropriate newsgroups i submit that comp org acm and comp org ieee are not appropriate for this discussion you have now made subscribers to these newsgroups aware of the issue if they want to know more or participate in the discussion they can easily join sci crypt comp security misc alt security or comp org eff talk russ schnapp email netcom metaflow rschnapp or rschnapp metaflow com or rschnapp bix com metaflow technologies voice x fax la jolla california unless otw specified i m speaking only for myself
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow in article apr clarinet com sci crypt brad clarinet com brad templeton writes interestingly enough in designing the escrow we may want to use some rather unusual technology such as sealed boxes of paper or destructive read memory rather than typical computer databases which is fun for a database of hundreds of millions of keys to me a larger problem is that once disclosed your keys could be used to decrypt any previously recorded conversations i gather that from this proposal a warrant would be required to get the keys but not to collect conversations consider the scenario where an agency collects preemptively all encrypted conversations for certain people likely to be targets and not necessarily legitimate targets then arranges for some unrelated incident that can trigger a warrant your honor we know that the suspect has received calls from noted crime figure bugsy butthead said calls arranged by the agency and we must therefore have this warrant to determine whether this suspect in a sensitive govt post is corrupt i suppose that it is conceivable that there are session keys involved somewhere but that doesn t seem likely if there are why wouldn t the technical overview mention them when it goes to such details as the number of bits held by each escrow authority this scheme is full of holes and stinks to high heaven mel mel beckman internet mbeckman mbeckman com beckman software engineering compuserve ventura ca voice fax you can observe a lot just by watching yogi bera
sci.crypt	re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only in article r ausinni senator bedfellow mit edu jfc athena mit edu john f carr writes the chip and algorithm are classified if you reverse engineer it and tell people you are likely to go to jail i don t find this a credible argument for two reasons one you have supplied below unless i care about entering the usa at any time in the future eg the taiwanese backyard cloners who btw have been known to decap custom silicon and reproduce it on daughterboards when pirating high profit arcade machines and the like who wouldn t care less i am not going to care much about us confidentiality am i only people like the real me who does care about travelling to various countries for business reasons will sit up and follow laws like this but i would contend that we re not the main threat i also have grave doubts whether an algorythm widely distributed in silicon could possibly be called classified it s like handing out military secrets to the whole world in envelopes marked don t open me i can imagine several credible defences which could be employed if it came to a trial one would be the stupidity of the government s actions perhaps some foreign governments or corporations could help us out by cracking the system outside the usa the us government could probably stop importation of clone hardware but a software implementation should be practical amusing thought could they have employed an algorythm which is infeasable for a fast software implementation but which is easy in custom hardware in des the extensive use of permutation tables trivial in hardware you just swap bus lines but relatively slow in software have had a big effect on the speed difference between hardware and software implementations of that cipher indeed i suspect that lucifer s designers were well aware that it would be and approved certain algorythms usually parallel search algorythms can be very slow in software yet can fly in custom hardware i have no proof of their employment in clipper it is pure conjecture however as a software implementation of this cipher is something that its designers would have been trying to avoid at all costs then the inclusion of such techniques seems credible hmmm i also wonder what intergraph thinks about the use of the name clipper for this device ian farquhar phone office of computing services fax macquarie university nsw also australia email ifarqhar laurel ocs mq edu au
sci.crypt	re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only in article almaden ibm com ameline vnet ibm com ian ameline writes i also believe that someone will reverse engineer the clipper chip and knowlege of the algorithm will likely be fairly widespread any back doors or weaknesses would further discredit the scheme and help grow the market demand for a secure alternative i must admit that this point has been running through my mind for most of the discussion one the dice are out there it won t be long before someone decaps it and after a bit of work has full details of the clipper algorythm this isn t trivial to do but then again it is not impossibly difficult either any half way decent vlsi design student should be able to take a photograph of a technology s he is familiar with and given a description of the input output control and supply lines figure out the function of various subsystems on the die indeed this is not an uncommon exercise performed during training because it makes you think about design decisions made by other designers i could speculate that these chips are going to be manufactured using tamperproof carriers unlikely such techniques are very expensive and this thing is supposed to be relatively cheap to produce or that there will be some legal or legislative framework to prevent publication of the algorythm unlikely please correct me if i am wrong but aren t these supposed to be sold internationally i suppose that the most likely reason the algorythm is remaining secret for the moment is that some idiot bureaucrat untrammeled by the realities of the situation decided that well we should keep it a secret because it is supposed to be secret isn t it just some random thoughts ian farquhar phone office of computing services fax macquarie university nsw also australia email ifarqhar laurel ocs mq edu au
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more jhan debra dgbt doc ca jerry han writes the point of the matter is that yes this is a serious problem but it is not the end of the world guess what we re doing something now you can t do in a communist country or nazi germany or john edgar hoover s usa we re complaining about it or rather you re complaining about it and nobody is shooting at us yet guess what people you live in one of the few countries in the world where a person can complain without getting shot at yet people are always complaining that somebody did this wrong or somebody did that wrong or whatever sit down and figure out two things what have they done right how much worse can it get and you ll find that you and i are pretty damn lucky so far so let s talk about it get some action going decide what s going on but let s not overreact what harm is there in overreacting this may be the largest single threat to civil liberties yet in my lifetime the us has done some pretty heinous things in the past and we haven t yet recovered from all of them there certainly seems to be a historical trend towards less liberty with occasional perturbations time to break out the quotes from american political radicals lyle transarc grant street the gulf tower pittsburgh there are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by the gradual and silent encroachment of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpation james madison
sci.crypt	re the secret source of that announcement in article gradyc uamw bng netcom com grady netcom com ef writes i guess the cryptowranglers read this group too but of course i knew that because it is so easy to do there is not a single doubt in my mind that every byte that passes every significant gateway or bone is captured for the colligation of data about maybe your name is here i really like these claims where did they come from we hear practically daily that the nsa monitors oh everything they can crack anything they d never release a cryptosystem they couldn t crack where do people get these fascinating facts the puzzle palace if you can get it for a buck nd hand it must be true eh i m pretty sure the nsa is supposed to among many other things provide high quality cryptosystems to a variety of places i don t recall reading anywhere reliable that they re supposed to monitor my phonecalls monitor usenet provide only cryptosystems they can easily crack etc etc this is not to say that they don t they might but you don t know that they do and you have no evidence that they do for almost all values of you it follows therefore that for most values of you your claims about the nsa border on paranoia andrew
sci.crypt	clipper chip facts a request having read the various clipper announcements on the net over the last few days and a lot of uninformed speculation about the chip its uses government plots etc i have the following questions what does the clipper chip actually implement just the skipjack cryptographic algorithm or does it also implement a chip to chip communications protocol if it does implement a communications protocol can it be used as just a crypt chip also where can the chip specifications and spec sheets be obtained who may purchase them and under what conditions are there restrictions as to how the chip may be used in a system the security of the algorithm and the encrypted communications does not appear to require that the family key be a secret why is it a secret what happens when the family key becomes well known if it s a secret to make traffic analysis more difficult does the law enforcement message contain any random information how much and how random is it can the chip be programmed to reveal the unit key the chip serial number any of the programming parameters raymond s brand rbrand usasoc soc mil
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article bontchev fbihh bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de writes andersom spot colorado edu marc anderson writes methods this year s crime bill will have teeth not bare gums clinton said in particular his administration will place strict controls on data formats and protocols and require the registration of so called cryptographic keys in the hope of denying drug dealers the ability to communicate in secret clinton said the approach could be used for crackdowns on other forms of underground economic activity such as the deficit causing tax evaders who live in luxury at the expense of our grandchildren and some people thought that i am exaggerating when claiming that the cripple chip is just a first step in a totalitarian plot against the civil liberties in the usa it seems that i ve even been an optimist the things are happening even faster than i expected that s another of the dirty tricks they used to apply on us under the communist regime do something secret then tell the people about is after the fact when nothing can be done any more and of course explaining them how much better the situation is now in my previous messages i wrote that the americans should wake up and fight against the new proposal now it seems to me that it is already too late it has already happened the civil liberties have been violated no stollen from the american people while the most part of this people has been sleeping happily too sad i m definitely going to write my congressman and nobody s ever going to make me respect a law that violates my freedom of speech and if the feds try to enforce this law on me i will protect my freedoms with force if it ever comes to that hopefully it won t doug holland doug holland anyone who tries to take away my freedom holland cs colostate edu of speech will have to pry it from my pgp key available by e mail cold dead lips
sci.crypt	re do we need the clipper for cheap security in article r c an news intercon com amanda intercon com amanda walker writes agreed remember i don t even think of clipper as encryption in any real sense if i did i d probably be a lot more annoyed about it i agree with this assessment furthermore its promotion as providing greater protection than bare voice is quite true as far as it goes however the only way for it to fulfill its stated goal of letting le wiretap terrorists and drug dealers is to restrict stronger techniques wiretap targets presently use strong encryption weak encryption or the vast majority no encryption the latter two classes can be tapped with weak encryption in every phone the no encryption class is merged into the weak encryption class will the introduction of clipper cause targets presently enjoying strong privacy to give up on it that is to rely for privacy on a system expressly designed to deny it to people like them i doubt it the mere introduction of this scheme will give the government nothing the stated goal of preventing the degradation of wiretapping capabilities can be fulfilled by restriction of domestic cryptography and only by this restriction clipper appears to be no more than a sop given to the public to mute any complaints we would find this a grossly inadequate tradeoff but i fear the public at large will not care i hate to even mention gun control but most people seem to think that an assault weapon as the nyt uses the word is some sort of automatic weapon caliber maybe who wants to have such a thing legal well people know even less about cryptology i suspect that strong cryptography could easily be labeled too much secrecy for law abiding citizens to need that s not for clinton or anyone under him to say though only the federal and supreme courts can say anything about the constitutionality anything the administration or any governmental agency says is opinion at best what they say is opinion but what they do is what matters and will continue unless overturned and the courts are reluctant to annul law or regulation going to some length to decide cases on other grounds furthermore congress can get away with quite a bit they could levy a burdensome tax this would place enforcement in the hands of the batf who as we ve seen you really don t want on your case they could invoke the commerce clause this seems most likely this clause will get you anywhere these days the th was required because the supreme court ruled a prohibitory statute unconstitutional in congress prohibited many drugs with a textual nod to the commerce clause the controlled substances act of still stands i think the government could get away with it amanda walker pgp key by finger or e mail eli ebrandt jarthur claremont edu
sci.crypt	re would clipper make a good cover for other encryption method amanda intercon com amanda walker writes i don t get up in arms when the government fails to protect the interests of the people because in my lifetime it never has therefore i have no expectation that it will just to make sure everyone is clear on this it never has refers to protects not fails to protect i e in my lifetime i have never seen the u s government consistently protect the interest of u s citizens except by accident amanda walker intercon systems corporation
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more res colnet cmhnet org rob stampfli writes wouldn t a a second monitor of similar type scrolling gibberish and adjacent to the one being used provide reasonable resistance to tempest attacks it would be in a different location so a directional antenna could probably lock in on just the one monitor failing that a phased array could likely seperate the signals admittedly this is expensive but so is all the rest of this stuff anyway perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
sci.crypt	re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip in article apr lokkur dexter mi us scs lokkur dexter mi us steve simmons writes smb research att com steven bellovin writes thousands tens of thousands do some arithmetic please skipjack has possible keys let s assume a brute force engine like that hypothesized for des microsecond per trial million chips that s trials per second or about years for trials well maybe they can get chips running at one trial per nanosecond and build a machine with million chips sure only years for each solution normally i d be the last to argue with steve but shouldn t that read years for all solutions i mean if we can imagine the machine that does trial nanosecond we can imagine the storage medium that could index and archive it at the company i worked for previously i received a file that was des encryped and the person that had sent it went on vaction rather than wait two weeks i set up a straight frontal attack with one key at a time it only took two days to crack the file no i don t have any faith in des a g a g russell dept a s oltp section of pals group vm id sc at ausvm email arussell austin ibm com phone tieline these are my views on anyone else they would look silly free the berkeley
sci.crypt	re white house public encryption management fact sheet in article apr charon gsfc nasa gov paul charon gsfc nasa gov paul olson writes in article qnav r l transfer stratus com cme ellisun sw stratus com carl ellison writes in article c lgaz dove nist gov clipper csrc ncsl nist gov clipper chip announcement writes further the attorney general good post describing what is in store for us deleted it s also interesting to note that two months ago rush limbaugh said that clinton would have the plumbers out in force shortly clinton and his henchmen firmly believe in strong ubiquitous government control anytime a leader believes in that the leader will use every means possible to retain that control and take more we have to take our government back otherwise we will end up living in the equivalent of a high tech third world dictatorship we have to take responsibility for ourselves our personal welfare and our actions i totally agree but how do you propose we take government back they obviously don t listen to the people or want the people to know who is responsibile for what a person telnetted the site of the clipper chip release to see what the entity clipper was and got a few lists but when another person tried a bit later the commands were disabled does not sound like an administration that wants to have any accountability or information they don t control given to the people the secret development and implimentation of the clipper chip decision further backs that up you can bet unaurhorized encryption methods and software will be considered terrorist tools and also subject to civil forfeiture along with the systems that are running it you watch see if i am wrong the government is not going to be very cooperative about the people taking it back and they have all the resources unlimited access to the media for propeganda and almost all the guns soon to be all the guns if clinton s agenda succeeds those that do not play ball waco might be a good example of what to expect the warrant just released stated the reason for the raid was the bds spent a very large sum for weapons over an undetermined amount of time i don t recall spending a lot of money on guns etc being illegal yet that is clinton might go down in history as the worst thing to ever happen to the us of a now to be known as the peoples socalist democratic republic of america psdra big brother is listening hail big brother and sister only ten years late pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien
sci.crypt	re do we need the clipper for cheap security in article r f rh news intercon com amanda intercon com amanda walker wrote one thing that clipper offers is interoperability at a higher degree of security than we currently have in non proprietary voice encryption systems this means it will be cheaper than anyone s proprietary scheme and easier to probably cheaper than you think i ll bet some of my and yours tax dollars become a subsidy for these chips if these chips don t sell well what s to stop the us government from giving them away in the interest of national security deploy this is of course either a bug or a feature depending on how you look at it amanda walker intercon systems corporation steven p holton network administrator rtp fast northern telecom inc replies to cmsph nt com on bounce sholton aol com compuserve com opinions expressed here are my own
sci.crypt	re would clipper make a good cover for other encryption method quoting strnlght netcom com david sternlight in article strnlghtc t nh is netcom com in article apr eff org kadie eff org carl m kadie writes so don t just think of replacements for clipper also think of front ends this only makes sense if the government prohibits alternative non escrowed encryption schemes otherwise why not just use the front end without clipper because that will make private encryption stick out like a sore thumb and the government will start to take a sharp interest in everything you do o paul crowley pdc dcs ed ac uk trust me i know what i m doing x fold a fish for jesus
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article apr coop com felixg coop com felix gallo writes pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes if the clinton clipper is so very good please note that bill clinton probably has little if anything to do with the design implementation or reasoning behind this chip or behind any moves being made using this chip as a pawn uh i notice he has not either asked for or allowed public input and he damn sure has not stopped it remember when you elect a president of the united states it s not the case that all the republicans etc in the nsa and fbi and cia immediately pack their bags and get replaced by a team of fresh young democrats most of the government say is appointed or hired rather than elected since this clipper device has been in production for over six months it probably has little or no foundation in the currently elected democratic executive body again if it was something clinton didn t like how come he did not stop it or get public input before implimenting the decision he sure has asserted his authority on other things he did not agree with from the bush administrationk i notice he is the president therefore he is responsible for the actions of the execuitive branch i have not the slightest bit of doubt you would be holding bush or reagan to that standard had they been in office when this thing was cast into stone btw those who suggest that this is just an attack on clinton believe this i would be going ballistic reagardless who seriously proposed this thing it is just another step in a gradual erosion of our rights under the constitution or bill of rights the last couple of decades have been a non stop series of end runs around the protections of the constitution it has to stop now is as good a time as any if it isn t too late allready could be however the sky hasn t fallen yet chicken little thanks for the name calling that really makes your position higly credible lenin had a term for folks with your outlook do you really have that much faith in the trustworthiness and honesty of the government that is primarily concerned with people control i suspect you will be in for an unpleasant surprise i would just as soon see this nipped in the bud while if it still can be done instead of waiting for yet more abridgements of our bill of rights thank you pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article apr cs ucla edu geoff ficus cs ucla edu geoffrey kuenning writes in article rwing uucp pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes fishing expeditions without the target s knowlege don t give up the right to be safe from that that should be non negotiable and clinton and co know it which is probably why they quietly developed this thing figuring if they get it this far they can ram it on through it always amazes me how quick people are to blame whatever administration is current for things they couldn t possibly have initiated this chip had to take years to develop yet already we re claiming that the clinton administration sneaked it in on us bullshit the bush administration and the career gestapo were responsible for this horror and the careerists presented it to the new presidency as a fait accompli that doesn t excuse clinton and gore from criticism for being so stupid as to go for it but let s lay the body at the proper door to start with you are so correct clinton did not initiate it he just cast it in granite by implimenting not stopping the decision i also stated in another post i don t give a damn what administration does it i still find it totally unacceptable and whoever impliments it or rams it down our throats ought to be run out of office also bush was not trying to deprive us of our second amendment rights clinton is busting his butt in that regard that reveals a total difference in philosophy clinton appears to support the idea of total people control eavesdropping whenever they feel like it no real security for the common person and no ability to defend oneself against illegal attack from whatever source trust us we will protect and control you if we don t find it inconvenient clinton has also shown his utter contempt for public disclosure and accountability as well he had plenty of time to change the policy he didn t he expanded on it i bet had bush been in office you would be in there howling louder than i pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien
sci.crypt	re organized lobbying for cryptography quoting jgfoot minerva cis yale edu in article r jgbinn i eli cs yale edu perhaps these encryption only types would defend the digitized porn if it was posted encrypted these issues are not as seperable as you maintain in fact since effective encryption makes censorship impossible they are almost the same issue and they certainly fall into the brief of the eff o paul crowley pdc dcs ed ac uk trust me i know what i m doing x fold a fish for jesus
sci.crypt	revised technical summary of clipper chip here is a revised version of my summary which corrects some errors and provides some additional information and explanation the clipper chip a technical summary dorothy denning revised april introduction on april the president announced a new initiative that will bring together the federal government and industry in a voluntary program to provide secure communications while meeting the legitimate needs of law enforcement at the heart of the plan is a new tamper proof encryption chip called the clipper chip together with a split key approach to escrowing keys two escrow agencies are used and the key parts from both are needed to reconstruct a key chip contents the clipper chip contains a classified single key bit block encryption algorithm called skipjack the algorithm uses bit keys compared with for the des and has rounds of scrambling compared with for the des it supports all des modes of operation the algorithm takes clock ticks and in electronic codebook ecb mode runs at mbits per second each chip includes the following components the skipjack encryption algorithm f an bit family key that is common to all chips n a bit serial number this length is subject to change u an bit secret key that unlocks all messages encrypted with the chip the chips are programmed by mykotronx inc which calls them the myk the silicon is supplied by vlsi technology inc they are implemented in micron technology and will initially sell for about each in quantities of or more the price should drop as the technology is shrunk to micron encrypting with the chip to see how the chip is used imagine that it is embedded in the at t telephone security device as it will be suppose i call someone and we both have such a device after pushing a button to start a secure conversation my security device will negotiate an bit session key k with the device at the other end this key negotiation takes place without the clipper chip in general any method of key exchange can be used such as the diffie hellman public key distribution method once the session key k is established the clipper chip is used to encrypt the conversation or message stream m digitized voice the telephone security device feeds k and m into the chip to produce two values e m k the encrypted message stream and e e k u n f a law enforcement field which are transmitted over the telephone line the law enforcement field thus contains the session key k encrypted under the unit key u concatenated with the serial number n all encrypted under the family key f the law enforcement field is decrypted by law enforcement after an authorized wiretap has been installed the ciphertext e m k is decrypted by the receiver s device using the session key d e m k k m chip programming and escrow all clipper chips are programmed inside a scif secure compartmented information facility which is essentially a vault the scif contains a laptop computer and equipment to program the chips about chips are programmed during a single session the scif is located at mykotronx at the beginning of a session a trusted agent from each of the two key escrow agencies enters the vault agent enters a secret random bit value s into the laptop and agent enters a secret random bit value s these random values serve as seeds to generate unit keys for a sequence of serial numbers thus the unit keys are a function of secret random bits where each agent knows only to generate the unit key for a serial number n the bit value n is first padded with a fixed bit block to produce a bit block n s and s are then used as keys to triple encrypt n producing a bit block r r e d e n s s s similarly n is padded with two other bit blocks to produce n and n and two additional bit blocks r and r are computed r e d e n s s s r e d e n s s s r r and r are then concatenated together giving bits the first bits are assigned to u and the second bits to u the rest are discarded the unit key u is the xor of u and u u and u are the key parts that are separately escrowed with the two escrow agencies as a sequence of values for u u and u are generated they are written onto three separate floppy disks the first disk contains a file for each serial number that contains the corresponding key part u the second disk is similar but contains the u values the third disk contains the unit keys u agent takes the first disk and agent takes the second disk thus each agent walks away knowing an bit seed and the bit key parts however the agent does not know the other bits used to generate the keys or the other bit key parts the third disk is used to program the chips after the chips are programmed all information is discarded from the vault and the agents leave the laptop may be destroyed for additional assurance that no information is left behind the protocol may be changed slightly so that four people are in the room instead of two the first two would provide the seeds s and s and the second two the escrow agents would take the disks back to the escrow agencies the escrow agencies have as yet to be determined but they will not be the nsa cia fbi or any other law enforcement agency one or both may be independent from the government law enforcement use when law enforcement has been authorized to tap an encrypted line they will first take the warrant to the service provider in order to get access to the communications line let us assume that the tap is in place and that they have determined that the line is encrypted with the clipper chip the law enforcement field is first decrypted with the family key f giving e k u n documentation certifying that a tap has been authorized for the party associated with serial number n is then sent e g via secure fax to each of the key escrow agents who return e g also via secure fax u and u u and u are xored together to produce the unit key u and e k u is decrypted to get the session key k finally the message stream is decrypted all this will be accomplished through a special black box decoder capstone the next generation a successor to the clipper chip called capstone by the government and myk by mykotronx has already been developed it will include the skipjack algorithm the digital signature standard dss the secure hash algorithm sha a method of key exchange a fast exponentiator and a randomizer a prototoype will be available for testing on april and the chips are expected to be ready for delivery in june or july acknowledgment and distribution notice this article is based on information provided by nsa nist fbi and mykotronx permission to distribute this document is granted
sci.crypt	re i have seen the lobby and it is us in article apr eff org a charles gross acg eff org writes certainly with our way cool internet powers of organization we can act in the same way if such action is appropriate as long as we are kept informed of events anyone on this bboard can make a call to action hopefully we re a strong enough community to act on those calls i realize this is a little optomistic and i m glad eff is working in the loop on these issues but don t underestimate the potential of the net for political action adam i speak for myself i second the motion all in favor btw a few days ago charles fee cxf psuvm psu edu posted the names addresses and phone numbers voice and fax of almost all the rd congress s members this info along witha great number of cabinet men etc i captured it as did many others i am sure we should single out a few of the people on the list and bombard them with lobbying against the clipper chip et al nate o o i hate quotations this message brought you by tell me what you know nate sammons and the number ralph waldo emerson ns longs lance colostate edu o o
sci.crypt	re why the algorithm is secret exactly but i ll add another observation if the chip does become a standard the algorithm won t remain secret leaving the government with the only remaining option to make use of un escrowed keys illegal which won t begin to bother the terrorists and child abusers the government is so fond of referring to note that the federalist papers stress one reason for the right of citizens to bear arms to defend themselves against the army our army imho the primary purpose of private crypto is defend ourselves against the government the odd terrorist i m not worried about the goverment damages my quality of life every day rob robert ullmann ariel world std com x quand maigret poussa la porte du tabac fontaine vers une heure et demie le patron du bar qui venait de se lever descendait lentement un escalier en colima on qui s amor ait dans l arri re salle arriv derri re le comptoir il repousa le gar on d un geste n gligent de la main saisit une bouteille de vin blanc un verre m langea au vin de l eau min rale et la t te renvers e en arri re se gargarisa simenon text is iso utf universal character set
sci.crypt	re estimating wiretap costs benefits in article apr kronos arc nasa gov hanson kronos arc nasa gov robin hanson writes a rough estimate suggests that wiretaps are worth about five million dollars per year to u s law enforcement agencies in u s wiretaps led to arrests while total police expenditures of billion led to million arrests ref us statistical abstracts i m working on estimating this wiretap benefit more accurately but you seem to be assuming that all arrests are of equal value and that the use of wiretaps is spread uniformly among them given this comparatively tiny number of wiretaps and the associated difficulty and cost involved judges technicians etc i expect that law enforcement reserves the use of wiretaps for the most valuable cases since the value of an arrest can vary over an enormous range eg jaywalking mass murder i think your million estimate may be too low by a couple of orders of magnitude
sci.crypt	re the secret source of that announcement in article r hgqinndaa uwm edu rick miller rick ee uwm edu writes jbotz mtholyoke edu jurgen botz writes seems like sombody didn t like your snooping around marc or the more likely explanation is that marc is spoofing while i didn t try the expansion personally i know of at least two other people who did and got the same results your allegation is incorrect at best pgp key by finger or e mail eli ebrandt jarthur claremont edu
sci.crypt	dos compression api partial answer for those of you looking for information on ms dos s file system compression api today i called microsoft s dos hotline at they told me that the dos resource kit had the specifications for the compression interface the resource kit costs plus tax and shipping i ordered a copy and will post further when i get it and know more about it i am posting now because the order turnaround is working days if anyone knows for sure where s there s a good source of info on this api please speak up i am slightly skeptical about the resource kit s likelihood of having detailed programming info mark r mrr ripem msu edu posted also to sci crypt since the api could presumably also be used for file system encryption
sci.crypt	re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip don t get fooled by exponents possible keys is not in the same league with particles in the universe remember avagadro s number there are about that many elementary particles not molecules in one mole pretty small universe or if you can put gigabytes on one tape you would need about trillion tapes allowing several bytes per entry still more than all of the existing magnetic media on the planet but wait a few years i m including existing audio and video cassettes in the total ten trillion is about per person worldwide gives new meaning to the suspicions of hiden messages robert i eachus with standard disclaimer use standard disclaimer function message text in clever ideas return better ideas is
sci.crypt	re the escrow database in article apr shearson com pmetzger snark shearson com perry e metzger writes each of the two escrow databases fits conveniently on a single very valuable exabyte tape this can only get easier with time but who cares i can already hold all the clipper keys in the country in my pocket on two mm tapes excellent point and there s a related point i d like to make they ll have to back up these databases themselves won t they how many tape copies will there be and how secure will the tapes be if they store them off site it wouldn t be too hard to hijack them in transit if they re all kept on site one good bomb attack by some group intent on freeing us from the threat of government snooping will take care of the problem once and for all i can see it now hi we re from the government and we um misplaced our copy of your key could you mail us a copy
sci.crypt	re would clipper make a good cover for other encryption method in article apr eff org kadie eff org carl m kadie writes clipper might be a good way to cover the use of another layer of encryption could somebody provide an overview of the proposed systems using the chip ought to see if att has a spec sheet skipjack sounds like a normal digital encryption algorithm so the data path will have to be voice digitize compress encrypt compression will be necessary to fit the data on the wire unless they want to wait for isdn that we should be so lucky feeding pre encrypted data into the compressor will cause it to chuckle at you you d have to tap into the guts of the phone and hack either the compressed data stream or selected parts of the output stream before it hits the modem unless you want to pay for two fast modems on top of the encryption and just plug the box in between your phone and the wall carl pgp key by finger or e mail eli ebrandt jarthur claremont edu
sci.crypt	re the secret source of that announcement in r om c m slab mtholyoke edu jbotz mtholyoke edu jurgen botz writes even more interesting the smtp server at csrc ncsl nist gov no longer recognizes the expn and vrfy commands telnet csrc ncsl nist gov smtp trying connected to csrc ncsl nist gov escape character is first org sendmail nist ready at tue apr edt expn clipper command unrecognized seems like sombody didn t like your snooping around marc then it is a good thing we already have this the csspub mailing list csspab mail gw ncsl nist gov and address on the clipper mailing list seems to contain basically the members of the nist security board in addition to the names already posted their true names are as follows burrows ecf james burrows a director of nist s national computer systems laboratory mcnulty ecf f lynn mcnulty an associate director for computer security at the national institute of standards and technology s computer systems laboratory gangemi dockmaster ncsc mil gaetano gangemi is director of the secure systems program at wang laboratories inc he wrote computer security basics by deborah russell and g t gangemi sr o reilly and associates slambert cgin cto citicorp com sandra lambert is vice president of information security at citibank n a lipner mitre org lipner is mitre corp s director of information systems gallagher dockmaster ncsc mil patrick gallagher director of the national security agency s national computer security center and a security board member walker tis com stephen walker a computer security expert and president of trusted information systems inc in glenwood md willis rand org willis h ware a the rand corp executive who chairs the security board whitehurst vnet ibm com william whitehurst is a security board member and director of ibm corp s data security programs harry shapiro habs panix com list administrator of the extropy institute mailing list private communication for the extropian community since harry shapiro habs panix com list administrator of the extropy institute mailing list private communication for the extropian community since
sci.crypt	re secret algorithm re clipper chip and crypto key escrow after reading the debate over the clipper i have a few things to add first most of the people i know who activly use encryption privately do not care about most of the issues that surround this debate and any questions about what is or is not ok to use in the us all they care about is wether or not what they are using is secure or not that after all is the bottom line second if i look at all the people i know who use any form of encryption at all and this group spans people from the morons who still insist that the des is a good and secure standard to people looking at trying to improve upon existing strategies i can not think of anyone of them who would approve blindly of a strategy that leaves their methods open to abuse the clipper does this because people make mistakes by nature and the us government is made up of people who are just as vulnerable to mistakes as everyone else third since most of the people i know are at least marginaly familiar with the vulnerabilities present in current software encryption stratigies i can t see how most of them are going to blindly trust that someone will not figure out a good way to compromise the clipper chip that despite any strengths or weaknesses that may exist in it so i can not see a high degree of confidence developing in the chip fourth when it comes to criminal abuse sure there are many stupid people out there and yes some will be open to being caught via the built in back door of the clipper chip however anyone who is going to do any serious investigation of how best to secure their data is going to run into that problem pretty damned fast and i would assume start looking around for other easily obtainible methods of encryption if nothing else were avalible none of this would be an issue however the truth is that most private encryption users that i ve ever run into simply do not give a damn about the legal status of rsa or pgp or anything else if it works they use it this is not going to change either i do not think for a moment that anyone with serious criminal intent will be slowed down by the advent of the clipper chip it is all to easy to convert encrypted data into unintellgible garbage as it is if anything the clipper chip just adds another tool to the user the bottom line here is that people will use what works and unavoidibly i m sure most criminals would rather face an encryption related charge than one which could potentialy lead to death penalty charges in the case of criminals who murder as part of their conspiricy the other thing that has struck me since the advent and wide useage of public encryption has begun is that quite simply the cat is out of the bag or if you have an interest in snooping pandora s box has been opened and this is not going to change i ve seen a blindness to this that i ve found utterly stunning and the clipper chip along with the way it has been presented only confirms this to me to a larger degree sincerly tim scanlon tfs gravity gmu edu
sci.crypt	re estimating wiretap costs benefits in article rlglendec t en netcom com rlglende netcom com robert lewis glendenning writes first what the fuck is nasa doing wasting my tax dollars doing policy papers on stuff far outside of their purvew mission i don t think they re paying for it do us a favor resign rather than right this paper for nasa go do useful work for the society useful i find his estimate of the annual value to law enforcement of million quite useful if rough e g wiretaps may be preferentially used on otherwise hard to catch criminals resulting in an underestimate this comes to twenty cents a head over the u s population i would find some rigorous numbers on this quite useful it would make for nice slogans your privacy is worth or whatever it turns out to be lew glendenning rlglende netcom com pgp key by finger or e mail eli ebrandt jarthur claremont edu
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article c so hxv demon co uk graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes i am completely baffled by why dorothy denning has chosen to throw away her academic respectability like this she hasn t dorothy denning has spent many years earning the professional respect of her colleagues and something won in this manner is not easily lost her support of the clipper no matter how unpopular that position may be serves far more to enhance the clipper s respectability than to diminish her own jeff makey department of tautological pleonasms and superfluous redundancies department disclaimer all opinions are strictly those of the author domain makey visicom com uucp nosc visicom makey
sci.crypt	will feds troll for mutilated law enforcement blocks from denning the skipjack encryption algorithm f an bit family key that is common to all chips n a bit serial number u an bit secret key that unlocks all messages encrypted with the chip e m k the encrypted message stream and e e k u n f a law enforcement block where the session key is k and is transmitted encrypted in the unit key u which along with the serial number n is encrypted in the family key f presumably the protocol can be recovered if by nothing else differential analysis postulate if you will a chip or logic sitting between the clipper chip and its communications channel the function of this spoof chip is twofold transmit channel the spoof chip xors the bit encrypted serial number with a secondary keying variable this renders the serial number unrecoverable with just the family key receive channel the spoof chip xors the incoming encrypted serial number with a secondary keying variable assuming integrity of the law enforcement block is necessary for local operation checksums sequence control etc this has the net result of hiding the serial number it is probable theere is a known plaintext pattern used as a filler in the block containing n bits as used in generating u u u correctness of the law enforcement block can be determined with only the family key f whereas no one has proposed federal agencies be denied f and because they could recover it themselves the correctness of the serial number can be tested by examining the pad bits of n in e n f the one could selectively alter the law enforcement block as above but the mutilation could be detected a better approach would be to mutilate the entire law enforcement block if it were done with a group encryption scheme such as des or presumably skipjack the chances the law enforcement block can be recovered are lessened what do you want to bet the transmission protocol can be recognized and the serial numbers decrypted in a target search when digital transmission becomes widely available would there be a requirement that clipper protocol transmissions be refused when containing mutilated law enforcement blocks one way to avoid notice would be to spoof protocol information of the block containing m as well as spoofing the law enforcement block the goal is to use a secure communications scheme without redress to detection or key k interception contained encrypted within the law enforcement block the data stream is returned to its original state for use by the clipper chip or system if required for proper operation it is somewhat improbable that the entire protocol will be contained within the clipper chip yet likely that sequence of events will be tested for requiring a valid law enforcement block to be received before accepting and decrypting e m k the spoof chip could be implemented anywhere in the protocols including on the resulting serial data stream existing clipper products could be subborned after all they are high security encryption systems right super encipherment encryption could allow the chip to be used without redress to detection of the use of the chip or disclosure of the serial number security must be adequate to deny the serial number which should not be recoverable by other means one can see the use of cut outs for procurring clipper phones or once the number of units is high enough stealing them it would be a mistake on the part of authority but nice from a point of privacy if the serial number n were not associated with a particular clipper chip or lot of chips through the manufacturing and distribution process hopefully the list of known missing or stolen clipper serial numbers n encrypted with f and the protocols are not sufficient plaintext to attact the super encrypted clipper stream this could be further made difficult by altering the temporal and or spatial relationship of the clipper stream to that of the super encrypted stream detection of an encrypted stream could tip off the use of the aforementioned scheme if you could capture valid law enforcement blocks not your own and use them in a codebook sustitution with your own where they point to a valid law enforcement block stored in a library utilizing a session key matching the remainder of the transmission you could simply out and out lie yet deliver to monitoring and or hostile forces a seemingly valid law enforcement block these captured law enforcement blocks would be used as authenticators such as in a manually keyed encryption system fending this off would require escalation in examining the protocols and blocks in the transmission the m code stream might be independently attacked based on knowledge of clipper chip protocols as revealed plaintext this could be invalidated by changing the temporal and or spatial relationship of the clipper m stream and the actual transmitted stream under the control of a secure key generator synchronized between endpoints the useful life time of captured law enforcement blocks might be limited based on hostile forces using them as targets following transmission interception you would need a large number of them but hey there s supposed to be millions of these things right adding time stamps to the encrypted law enforcement block is probably impractical who wants an encryption chip with a real time clock the entire idea of the law enforcement block can be invalidated
sci.crypt	re will feds troll for mutilated law enforcement blocks the m code stream might be independently attacked based on knowledge of clipper chip protocols as revealed plaintext this could be invalidated by changing the temporal and or spatial relationship of the clipper m stream and the actual transmitted stream under the control of a secure key generator synchronized between endpoints the useful life time of captured law enforcement blocks might be limited based on hostile forces using them as targets following transmission interception you would need a large number of them but hey there s supposed to be millions of these things right adding time stamps to the encrypted law enforcement block is probably impractical who wants an encryption chip with a real time clock the entire idea of the law enforcement block can be invalidated i just had the thought that you could capture your own law enforcement blocks for session keys k that you will not use in actual transmissions as the session key authenticators the proviso that you don t mind your own serial number being discovered d denning just sent out further information of a new version of the clipper chip if a hash function were to be embedded in a clipper m transmission block reflecting the law enforcement block it better not fall on bit block boundaries if it were a recognizeable datum you could lie with it too i like the randomizer inclusion in the myk i remember reading that intel had an approved random noise source on silicon hence the ability to put it inside you ever think that mykotronx sounds like one of those made up names of companies used as fronts for intelligence organizations
sci.crypt	political point of attack clipper infrastructure my earlier argument that clipper will encourage state and local cops to commit criminal acts is largely moot now that we ve learned that the fbi will perform the actual tap it will encourage the fbi to commit even more criminal acts but that s not the point here but this gives another avenue of attack on the clipper proposal when the eff aclu cpsr foia requests are made they should ask for details on the bureaucratic and equipment infrastructure that is proposed or even already budgeted for the fbi to service tapping requests for now and the projected future from these figures estimate the number of clipper tap requests the fbi is expecting publish this figure compare it on a per capita basis with the amount of tapping now known or suspected also estimate how expensive it would be for the fbi to install more clipper tapping stations and how rapidly they could be built and installed ie get the plus or minus epsilon for the near future might be a mite disturbing for j q public to know these things and despite all the technical details btw thanks to those who ve been providing them we still don t know how the tapping requests will be transmitted and authenticated though it isn t too hard to guess a good scheme how the results will be securely transmitted fed ex the audio tapes how privacy will be re established when an investigation is complete dwight tuinstra best tuinstra sandman ece clarkson edu tolerable tuinstrd craft camp clarkson edu homo sapiens planetary cancer news at six
sci.crypt	re clipper will corrupt cops was wh proposal from police point of view in article apr news clarkson edu tuinstra signal ece clarkson edu soe dwight tuinstra writes the clear implication is that there are legal authorizations other than a court order just how leaky are these i don t have the wiretap statute handy but here s what the law says on pen registers this is all from title of the u s code note how vague s a b is i haven t had a chance to check out u s c yet usc s pen registers as of s general prohibition on pen register and trap and trace device use exception a in general except as provided in this section no person may install or use a pen register or a trap and trace device without first obtaining a court order under section of this title or under the foreign intelligence surveillance act of u s c et seq s emergency pen register and trap and trace device installation a notwithstanding any other provision of this chapter any investigative or law enforcement officer specially designated by the attorney general the deputy attorney general the associate attorney general any assistant attorney general any acting assistant attorney general or any deputy assistant attorney general or by the principal prosecuting attorney of any state or subdivision thereof acting pursuant to a statute of that state who reasonably determines that an emergency situation exists that involves a immediate danger of death or serious bodily injury to any person or b conspiratorial activities characteristic of organized crime that requires the installation and use of a pen register or a trap and trace device before an order authorizing such installation and use can with due diligence be obtained and there are grounds upon which an order could be entered under this chapter to authorize such installation and use may have installed and use a pen register or trap and trace device if within forty eight hours after the installation has occurred or begins to occur an order approving the installation or use is issued in accordance with section of this title b in the absence of an authorizing order such use shall immediately terminate when the information sought is obtained when the application for the order is denied or when forty eight hours have lapsed since the installation of the pen register or trap and trace device whichever is earlier c the knowing installation or use by any investigative or law enforcement officer of a pen register or trap and trace device pursuant to subsection a without application for the authorizing order within forty eight hours of the installation shall constitute a violation of this chapter
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful in article r us oeh agate berkeley edu shirriff sprite berkeley edu ken shirriff writes imagine archiving all pay phone conversations so if someone turns out to be a drug dealer you can listen to all their past drug deals and archive calls to from suspected mafia members potential terrorists radicals etc imagine the convenience for the police of being able to get a warrant now and listening to all the calls the world trade center bombers made in the past year since archiving would be such a powerful tool and so easy to do why wouldn t it happen apart from the storage and search requirements because the evidence is inadmissible wiretaps require a warrant and as soon as one such case comes to light all previous cases are likely to be discovered and thrown out there was an article in the ny times a few months ago about how many convictions in the state might be invalidated because they relied on pen registers and the court of appeals ruled that pen registers were equivalent to wiretaps and hence required warrants under new york law
sci.crypt	re i have seen the lobby and it is us i agree that notifying your elected officials of your feelings on this and any other for that matter issue is the way to go and by the way the phone s on the list posted the other day were all in washington d c for most of you your elected officials will also maintain a local office in your area code when i manage my elected officials i use their local office s exclusively and my fax modem and windows print capture software are my tool of choice they see my words as i have stated them rather than a summary as they would if i called in voice and left a comment with the office staff edward a bertsch eab msc edu minnesota supercomputer center inc operations user services washington avenue south work minneapolis minnesota voice mail disclaimer my opinions not msci s
sci.crypt	re freely distributable public key cryptography c code where thus said ee jks brunel ac uk jonathan k saville d wigglesworth smhanaes gpu utcc utoronto ca wrote do you know of any freely distributable c or c code for public key cryptography such as rsa i ve tried various archie searches to no avail have you heard of pgp i assume from your post that you have not pgp is a freeware rsa encryption program which includes digital signatures and comprehensive key management facilities most sites also keep the source code a growing number of people are using this excellent software to encrypt to a very high standard their email and data get it before clinton outlaws it two of the many sites are rsa com pub pgp soda berkeley edu pub cypherpunks pgp pgp is not available on the archive site rsa com if it were it would be highly amusing since rsa com actually public key partners but it s the same entity is the organization holding the patents which they claim are violated if you actually make use or sell pgp i believe those patents also apply in canada but i m not a patent lawyer or anything there is no such thing as freely redistributable code for rsa which can be used in north america without legal entanglements you may wish to consider rsaref however which is available from the ftp site rsa com in rsaref but probably doesn t meet your definition of freely redistributable it s readily available in source in c and does rsa md etc and comes with a license allowing noncommercial use like any other strong crypto software it s not exportable legally it can be modified with permission from rsadsi which a number of people have received in the past for reasons that aren t entirely clear to me rsa says that only u s people should take rsaref from its server although there aren t itar issues regarding canada the ripem distribution site ripem msu edu has rsaref in its distribution and is ok for canadians marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu mime ripem accepted barney the dinosaur is simply rush limbaugh in a dinosaur suit lost boy
sci.crypt	some questions was revised summary here is a revised version of my summary that corrects some errors and provides some additional information and explanation thank you very much after reading the text some distinct questions arised to me which i guess will also be asked by other people perhaps would it be interesting to find an answer to these questions the clipper chip a technical summary n a bit serial number this length is subject to change shorter or longer once the session key k is established the clipper chip is used to encrypt the conversation or message stream m digitized voice the telephone security device feeds k and m into the chip to produce two values e m k the encrypted message stream and e e k u n f a law enforcement field which are transmitted over the telephone line the law enforcement field thus contains the session key k encrypted under the unit key u concatenated with the serial number n all encrypted under the family key f the law enforcement field is decrypted by law enforcement after an authorized wiretap has been installed first question when will the lawenforcmentfield be transmitted and how does the remote clipper chip handle it is it transmitted periodically in the stream of encrypted blocks or just at the beginning does the phone at the other side discard those packets via a protocol whatsoever or tries it to turn them into voice output which would not be disturbing at the beginning of a session a trusted agent from each of the two key escrow agencies enters the vault agent enters a secret random bit value s into the laptop and agent enters a secret random bit value s these random values serve as seeds to generate unit keys for a sequence of serial numbers thus the unit keys are a function of secret random bits where each agent knows only second question why why is such a strange procedure used and not a real rng this turns those s s in a kind of bottleneck for system security when law enforcement has been authorized to tap an encrypted line they will first take the warrant to the service provider in order to get access to the communications line let us assume that the tap is in place and that they have determined that the line is encrypted with the clipper chip the law enforcement field is first decrypted with the family key f giving e k u n documentation certifying that a tap has been authorized for the party associated with serial number n is then sent e g via secure fax to each of the key escrow agents who return e g also via secure fax u and u u and u are xored together to produce the unit key u and e k u is decrypted to get the session key k finally the message stream is decrypted all this will be accomplished through a special black box decoder so no technical provision will be taken to place a timeout on these warrants this would be a unique possibility to realize such a technical restriction by letting the escrow agencies perform the decoding of the session key just take modem lines instead of secure fax is this such a bad idea a successor to the clipper chip called capstone by the government and myk by mykotronx has already been developed it will include the skipjack algorithm the digital signature standard dss the secure hash algorithm sha a method of key exchange a fast exponentiator and a randomizer a prototoype will be available for testing on april and the chips are expected to be ready for delivery in june or july wow how does the randomizer work are the sha and key exchange secret or publicly known key exchange is dh i guess it seems that those who are opposed to this chip shall have a tough time your government realy means to act friendly greetings germano caronni instruments register only through things they re designed to register space still contains infinite unknowns pgp key id germano caronni caronni nessie cs id ethz ch fd ccf f da ea c dd f
sci.crypt	re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only in article r l inn gq senator bedfellow mit edu jfc athena mit edu john f carr writes in most cases information you come by properly is yours to use as you wish but there are certainly exceptions if you write a paper which includes sufficiently detailed information on how to build a nuclear weapon it is classified as i understand the law nuclear weapons design is automatically classified even if you do the work yourself i believe you are then not allowed to read your own paper hate to mess up your point but it is incredibly easy to learn how to make a nuclear weapon the hard part is getting the radioactives to put in it have you ever read tom clancy s the sum of all fears it describes in great detail how a palestinian terrorist group constructed a nuclear bomb using stolen actually found plutonium with some help from an east german nuclear physicist for some non fiction read tom clancy s article five minutes till midnight it shows how a terrorist group could construct a nuke using neptunium a low grade radioactive waste product dumped in toxic waste sites and forgotten about he also claims information on constructing a nuke is easily found in any large library sounds kind of scary doesn t it a less serious example if you tell drivers about a speed trap they are about to run into you can be fined even though you might argue that you broke no law when you discovered the location of the policeman the charge is interfering with a police officer which is quite similar what you would be doing by reverse engineering the clipper chip don t tell me that you think this violates the constitution find some court cases which have struck down such laws many people would not be comforted by the fact that the government violated their rights when it imprisoned them don t know whether you could get busted for warning of a speedtrap doug holland doug holland anyone who tries to take away my freedom holland cs colostate edu of speech will have to pry it from my pgp key available by e mail cold dead lips
sci.crypt	re would clipper make a good cover for other encryption method in article strnlghtc t t j b netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes chances are the government has thought of this and just anyone won t be permitted access to enough of the internals to make a fake clipper chip chances are that the government has classified some details of the internals at a very high level and manufacturers are required to observe security safeguards and clearances corresponding to that level assume in this case the usual canard adversary of narcotraficantes they probably have more cash than the kgb did and they re probably more generous at handing it out it will be easier than ever to find or cultivate walkers and pollards for the keys and it will be easy enough to find someone to reverse engineer the chip unless the tamper proofing is damned clever and effective brad yearwood brad optilink com uunet pyramid optilink brad petaluma ca
sci.crypt	re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine in article apr ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes and key size is one of the things that can be verified externally gee say they feed the bit key through snefru and take the first bits of the result then use those bits as the real key how do you figure out that each key is one of equal keys you can try a birthday attack but if the key can be changed only once a second then you will need several lifetimes to get reliable statistics somehow i don t think you could catch the nsa at this sort of skulduggery dan
sci.crypt	re the secret source of that announcement andrew molitor amolitor nmsu edu wrote monitor my phonecalls monitor usenet they may collect the data but making sense of it is another matter on sci crypt i m a graduate cs major with strong math background and experienced programmer taking a cryptology course keyword for alleged nsa filters on sci skeptic i m an ex physics major who s a new age flake talking about silly things like how a person s expectations colors what he sees on talk religion newage i m a physics geek who enjoys squashing interesting idea with wasp science although i do write occasional posts showing a minimal knowledge of zen mythology etc i could go on but i m sure you see my point i m a single person but i react differently on different groups admittedly in part because i m a contrarian you always shouts but on the other hand on top of that i loath certainty and have taken public positions in the past for no reason other than to challenge conventional wisdom i wish them luck in figuring out who i am based on that information they can probably figure out i m liberal with a technical degree but humanistic interests from a common thread throughout my posts but that describes a fair portion of the users of internet bear giles bear cs colorado edu fsl noaa gov
sci.crypt	re an open letter to mr clinton in article strnlghtc m cv hx netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes here s a simple way to convert the clipper proposal to an unexceptionable one make it voluntary that is you get high quality secure nsa classified technology if you agree to escrow your key otherwise you are on your own that s the disturbing part use of other products is voluntary for now and the press releases talk about the white house s unwillingness to decide that citizens have a right to good commercial crypto gear and about how commercial alternatives will be permitted as long as they provide key escrow services that s a clear implication that they re considering banning alternatives additionally use of real alternatives isn t totally legal you re not allowed to export really good crypto equipment except to the government s friends e g the australian government you can only export even bad crypto equipment with their permission and the regulators who control the cellular telephone companies make sure there are only two competitors so joe s garage cellular can t start offering a secure service pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at t bell labs m holmdel nj no i m from new jersey i only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful in article r us oeh agate berkeley edu shirriff sprite berkeley edu ken shirriff writes in article optilink com brad optilink com brad yearwood writes finally because there is essentially no possibility of intercepting in realtime the scrutable content of communications between stolen instruments there will exist strong motivation to record and archive all communications in the network for ex post facto scrutiny once some criminal act is discovered and the instruments involved have been identified all is a very big number the at t long distance network has around t trunks mbit sec which is on the order of bits sec that doesn t even count the amount of traffic in the local phone companies or our long distance competitors it s about exabytes tapes second which is pretty large even for the nsa on the other hand i can easily see them recording the traffic for interesting people such as dissidents suspected criminals foreign telephone calls and anybody noticed using encryption as ken shiriff speculates recording encrypted traffic will probably be judged not to be an invasion of privacy pretty soon pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at t bell labs m holmdel nj no i m from new jersey i only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	sorry folks read this in article apr ucsu colorado edu andersom spot colorado edu marc anderson writes the date i have for this is note clinton s statements about encryption in the rd paragraph i guess this statement doesen t contradict what you said though cut here washington upi the war on drugs is about to get a fresh start president clinton told delegates to the national federation of police commisioners convention in washington in the first speech on the drug issue since his innaugural clinton said that his planned escalation of the drug war would make everything so far seem so half hearted that for all practical i just found out from my source that this article was a joke heh heh it seemed pretty damn convincing to me from the start i just didn t notice the smiley at the end of the article and there were a few other hints which i should of caught anyway i guess this joke did turn out to resemble clinton s true feelings at least to some extent sorry about that marc andersom spot colorado edu
sci.crypt	re clipper and ranting libertarians just a little nitpicking wasn t it the government that required a standard railway gauge didn t that improve things please don t misunderstand i m utter suspicious of this clipper chip why hold the design top secret was this a work around the law that says that any discoveries made by people working for the government is public domain e g nih class library etc des has its designs published all over the place and it is considered fairly strong although could be stronger ants
sci.crypt	fear uncertainty doubt i suspect that the decisive element in the political battle will be the fud fear uncertainty doubt factor if the people who would be end users of the cripple chip hear of the whole debate only vaguely the government says it s solid other people in the field say it s swiss cheese the balance of doubt could shift against the feds any attempt to limit other forms of encryption could then be presented as the government covering its own butt by protecting its poor product from superior competition comments
sci.crypt	re how large are commercial keys in apr ee eng ohio state edu butzerd maumee eng ohio state edu dane c butzer writes what are the typical sizes for keys for commercial secret key algorithms i know des is bits tripple des is bits and idea is bits is there anything made in the us that has bit keys anything anywhere that has larger keys i ve heard that rc can be scaled to arbitrarily large keys but is this actually implemented anywhere my mdc cipher which uses any one way hash function as a cfb mode stream cipher the current implementation uses md uses a key of up to bits that is you can use a bit key if you want and copy it over the entire bit range or you can use the entire bits runtime is independant of key size the system runs slightly slower than md itself i presume rc and rc use a similar system or possibly they just hash an arbitrary length key down to n bits maybe using something like md peter
sci.crypt	re sorry folks read this in article apr ucsu colorado edu andersom spot colorado edu marc anderson writes i just found out from my source that this article was a joke heh heh it seemed pretty damn convincing to me from the start i just didn t notice the smiley at the end of the article and there were a few other hints which i should of caught people took this article seriously i mean i know it s the net and all but the prankster didn t even have clinton s sound bites right rita rouvalis rita village com
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in apr ucsu colorado edu andersom spot colorado edu marc anderson writes the date i have for this is note clinton s statements about encryption in the rd paragraph i guess this statement doesen t contradict what you said though cut here washington upi the war on drugs is about to get a fresh start president clinton told delegates to the national federation of police commisioners convention in washington in the first speech on the drug issue since his innaugural clinton said that his planned escalation of the drug war would make everything so far seem so half hearted that for all practical purposes this war is only beginning now he repeatedly emphasized his view that regardless of what has been tried or who has tried it or how long they ve been trying it this is day one to me the audience at the convention whose theme is how do we spell fiscal relief f o r f e i t u r e interrupted clinton frequently with applause clinton s program presented in the speech follows the outline given in his campaign position papers a cabinet level drug czar and boot camps for first time youthful offenders he did however cover in more detail his plans for improved enforcement methods this year s crime bill will have teeth not bare gums clinton said in particular his administration will place strict controls on data formats and protocols and require the registration of so called cryptographic keys in the hope of denying drug dealers the ability to communicate in secret clinton said the approach could be used for crackdowns on other forms of underground economic activity such as the deficit causing tax evaders who live in luxury at the expense of our grandchildren clinton expressed optimism that the drug war can be won because even though not everyone voted for bill clinton last november everyone did vote for a candidate who shares my sense of urgency about fighting the drug menace the advocates of legalization the advocates of surrender may be very good at making noise clinton said but when the american people cast their ballots it only proved what i knew all along that the advocates of surrender are nothing more than a microscopic fringe just doing a quick reality check here is this for real or did someone invent it to provoke a reaction from people it sounds more like the sort of thing you d have heard suitably rephrased from the leader of a certain german political party in the s peter
sci.crypt	re estimating wiretap costs benefits i am most embarassed that my irrate intemperate post is still circulating i have been chided by experts for my behavior i now agree with all of them although some were no more restrained in their speech than i was i have apologized to robin hanson lew lew glendenning rlglende netcom com perspective is worth iq points niels bohr or somebody like that
sci.crypt	re do we need the clipper for cheap security gtoal gtoal com graham toal writes can someone tell me if hardware compression is or is not needed to run digital speech down k i think it is i ve heard it s not lets say bit samples would raw data at the corresponding sampling rate be usable if not how fancy does the compression need to be it s all easy with a dsp the olivetti quaderno for example great kg subnotebook palmtop pc sorry for the plug folks but olivetti don t seem to be doing a good job marketing it themselves includes sound digitisation hardware they provide vocoders for their dsp which produce varous bit rates there s one which gives pretty acceptable voice quality at kbit sec just right for a v bis modem their dsp can play and record at the same time too so you wouldn t need to play two way radio you can also download code to the dsp subunit though you d need a software development kit for the dsp in question dunno which it is if you wanted to produce your own vocoder for say v speeds paul paul ducklin duck nuustak csir co za csir computer virus lab box pretoria s africa
sci.crypt	re facinating facts bit serial number possibly fixed s and s in article pmetzger apr snark shearson com pmetzger snark shearson com perry e metzger writes hmmm we must assume that generating the unit key u from the serial number n rather than generating it from a randomly selected u and u is an intentional way of assuring a fail safe for the government u is completedly determined given s s and n if s and s do not change even if they remain secret i wonder if they can somehow be back derived given enough unit key serial number pairs maybe such pairs suffice to reconstruct s and s by such a back door in the encryption algorithm perhaps it would be possible for the manufacturer to get the keys of all chips that were programmed in one session this would not btw enable anybody else to retrieve the keys in the same way because they ll never get a bunch of n u pairs with identical s and s note that these have to be constant for the whole batch by the very nature of the procedure i e they have to be typed in manually by the random number supplying agents and i was wondering why they ll always do chips in one session since the procedure described by ms denning imposes high costs on the production of every chip at least three persons for one hour each plus the cost of a laptop finally blown to pieces in a spectacular hollywood like bonfire add travelling expenses drinks and lighting divide the sum by there won t be a larger demand not from the private sector anyway and let me mention one other thought that certainly has occurred to all the notoriously paranoid people in this group before who is going to verify that no interested party will perform tempest attacks on the vault where there s so much smoke and mirrors there can t be a nice honest fire but something really worth hiding detlef lannert dc ek e mail tsos rz uni duesseldorf de pgp key via server or finger lannert clio rz uni duesseldorf de i am psmith oh you re smith are you with a preliminary p which however is not sounded p g wodehouse
sci.crypt	re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine in article apr silverton berkeley edu djb silverton berkeley edu d j bernstein writes in article apr ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes and key size is one of the things that can be verified externally gee say they feed the bit key through snefru and take the first bits of the result then use those bits as the real key how do you figure out that each key is one of equal keys you can try a birthday attack but if the key can be changed only once a second then you will need several lifetimes to get reliable statistics you re right and i retract the suggestion still i wonder that there are only bits of key information should in principle be detectable maybe some variant of the tests rivest et al did to demonstrate that des was probably not a group it should make an interesting paper a black box analysis of a cryptosystem
sci.crypt	re tempest in article apr infodev cam ac uk rja cl cam ac uk ross anderson writes res colnet cmhnet org rob stampfli writes wouldn t a a second monitor of similar type scrolling gibberish and adjacent to the one being used provide reasonable resistance to tempest attacks we ve got a tempest receiver in the lab here and there s no difficulty in picking up individual monitors their engineering tolerances are slack enough that they tend to radiate on different frequencies even where they overlap you can discriminate because they have different line synch frequencies you can lock in on one and average the others out the signals are weird in any case with varying polarisations and all sorts of interactions with the building just moving a folded dipole around is also highly effective as a randomised means of switching from one monitor to another hell just set up a spark jammer or some other very electrically noisy device or build an active farrady cage around the room with a noise signal piped into it while these measures will not totally mask the emissions of your equipment they will provide sufficient interference to make remote monitoring a chancy proposition at best there is of course the consideration that these measures may and almost cretainly will cause a certain amount of interference in your own systems it s a matter of balancing security versus convenience btw i m an ex air force telecommunications systems control supervisor and telecommunications cryptographic equipment technician remember waco who will the government decide to murder next maybe you opinions are mine i don t care if you blame the university or the state
sci.crypt	des init vector as additional key the recent discussion in this news group suggests that a key search attack against des is quite feasible now but normally des is applied in cbc or cfb mode where one chooses a random init vector of bytes questions makes it sense to handle the init vector as an additional key then we have a bit key if yes is anything known about the security of this key scheme can we break it faster than by exhaustive search through the bit key space klaus pommerening institut fuer medizinische statistik und dokumentation der johannes gutenberg universitaet obere zahlbacher strasse w mainz germany
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article apr cs aukuni ac nz pgut cs aukuni ac nz peter gutmann writes article deleted just doing a quick reality check here is this for real or did someone invent it to provoke a reaction from people it sounds more like the sort of thing you d have heard suitably rephrased from the leader of a certain german political party in the s it sounds like a joke but then the war on drugs has always been a joke join the pythagorean reform church repent of your evil irrational numbers and bean eating ways accept into your heart call the pythagorean reform church bbs at
sci.crypt	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption in article yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes in article apr afterlife ncsc mil rlward afterlife ncsc mil robert ward writes in article bontchev fbihh bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de writes and since the us constitutions guarantees the right to every american to bear arms why is not every american entitled as a matter of have you read the applicable part of the constitution and interpreted it in context if not please do so before posting this misinterpretation again it refers to the right of the people to organize a militia not for individuals to carry handguns grenades and assault rifles read the constitution yourself the second amendment says the right to bear arms shall not be infringed so a well regulated militia may be more easily formed i have an interpretation of the second that shows there are no qualifications to the right to keep and bear arms if you want i can e mail it to you by the way gun talk belongs in talk politics guns doug holland mr ward before you start blathering about your skill interpreting the constitution it might be helpful to learn to read after a review with a high school english teacher emphasizing participial phrases you might start with the second amendment and follow it up with th congress nd session committee print the right to keep and bear arms of the subcomittee on the constitution of the committee on the judiciary united states senate th congress second session february gpo no o this authoritative heavily researched and annotated document clearly turns your interpretation into specious claptrap which is a polite way of saying utter bullshit in spite of your false assertion to the contrary the second amendment does protect the right of the individual citizen in his capacity as an individual to keep and bear arms and mr holland imho blatantly and harmfully false information asserted as fact and globally distributed deserves globally distributed rebuttal in the forum in which it is posted and besides this site doesn t carry t p g harryb phred data io com phred harryb data io com no free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms the strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is as a last resort to protect themselves against tyranny in government thomas jefferson
sci.crypt	re the secret source of that announcement in article gradyc unp d netcom com grady netcom com ef writes andrew molitor amolitor nmsu edu wrote monitor my phonecalls monitor usenet provide only cryptosystems they can easily crack etc etc this is not to say that they don t they might but you don t know that they do and you have no evidence that they do for almost all values of you it follows therefore that for most values of you your claims about the nsa border on paranoia andrew or maybe the germans should have been a little more paranoid about their engima with respect to turing and the british how about the cracking of the zimmerman telegram would a little more paranoia have helped the germans here maybe the nsa should have been a little more paranoid about emma woikin or joseph sidney petersen jr or maybe you want to talk about macmillan publishers cooperation with the cia and nsa to suppress yardley s japanese diplomatic secrets or even kahn s the codebreakers paranoia right the most popular cipher systems in captured soviet spies was the one time pad even with the necessity of keeping incriminating evidence about is known to be the only proven unbreakable system soviet paranoia right and what do you think the nsa does with its wullenwebers and huge rhombics pointed embassy row and their sites near satellite uplink and downlink sites duh grady netcom com ef e ad d d c f fc ac f d f e f one case of slovenian paranoia once upon a time a tried to walk over the famous marathon field not far away from athens i could not do that mostly becouse the field is now a huge antenna farm probably a greek comint installation would you agree borut b lavrencic d sc x c si a mail p ac o ijs s lavrencic j stefan institute internet borut b lavrencic ijs si university of ljubljana phone si ljubljana slovenia pgp public key available on request dolgo smois kalis ovraz nikei njihk ocnoo dkril ivseb ipika
sci.crypt	re do we need the clipper for cheap security quoting pmetzger snark shearson com perry e metzger in article apr shearson com whats the difference between a v bis modem and a v bis modem how fast do the fastest modems go how far can voice be compressed i ve seen various assertions about this but anyone with the straightforward bits per second figures will be my friend forever o paul crowley pdc dcs ed ac uk trust me i know what i m doing x fold a fish for jesus
sci.crypt	re hard drive security for fbi targets if i forgot doesn t have as much credibility as you d like consider this alternative somewhere on the hard disk duplicated a few times keep a bit random number when the bit digest of your passphrase is computed it is xorred with the random number before being used as the key for your hard disk writing random junk over the random numbers makes the hard disk unreadable by anyone now if you were merely to claim that you have written random junk over the xor key no one would be able to tell whether or not you were telling the truth this is a perjury and b vunerable to rubber hose cryptography but otherwise effective o paul crowley pdc dcs ed ac uk trust me i know what i m doing x fold a fish for jesus
sci.crypt	alt security pgp begin pgp signed message hi all does anyone know of a unix utility allowing encrypted telnet sessions using public key i d like something so that nobody can snoop my password or session text while i m logging in remotely over the network thanks g please report unsigned hence unauthorised messages purportedly from me sent after gtf cus cam ac uk
sci.crypt	re bit keyseach machine jebright magnus acs ohio state edu james r ebright writes regarding nsa monitoring of us military code traffic btw folks nsa wasn t being given the keys and the walker spy case shows for some of the systems the kgb didn t need them either on the contrary the walker spy case is one where the kgb was given keys as i recall allen j baum apple computer baum apple com abaum armltd co uk
sci.crypt	re an open letter to mr clinton ld lance colostate edu l detweiler writes i m quite astonished shocked and appalled at this serious frontal assault on emerging american freedoms the clinton administration nor any other government agency has any legitimate role whatsoever in regulating cryptography to do so is tantamount to regulating acceptable speech and is blatantly unconstitutional perhaps we should rename this year in honor of such an illustrious proposal let the crappy chip live in infamy and the adminstration receive great shame and discredit for this bizarre misadventure imho encryption is also protected under the second amendment of the constitution of the united states i am outraged that my tax money is being used to develop technology to restrict my freedoms far beyond reasonable measures the u s government will have my full uncooperation and disobedience on any serious threat to my liberties such as this and i call on everyone with an interest in a sensible government to resist and defy this proposal the administration does not seem to understand that they are merely a subservient instrument to implement the will of the public and hence anyone involved in this proposal in this respect is wholly negligent and remiss in performing their lawful duty i am not surprised that this administration is doing this i could have told you so cryptography is neutral technology if everybody has strong cryptography including policemen bureacrats businessmen housewives thugs and hoodlums we have a sustainable equilibrium anything less is an unworkable anti egaltarian arrangement intrinsically antithetical to american freedoms and guaranteed to collapse under its own weight of inherent impracticality we don t need to compromise on issues of freedom privacy has always been something that has the effect of restricting out ability to prosecute criminals we are supposed to have the presumption of innocence i have the right to pull the curtains over my windows and close my door and the police may not come in if i perform a crim in my home they will have to find out by means other than simply looking encryption is to my data as the window curtains are to my home simple enough for too long our government has demonstrated itself to be increasingly hostile and a serious obstacle to economic vitality and protecting americans and yet the people vote for these people because they come out a lie to them about promising to fix things the administration has to be committed to leaving private industries alone esp on this issue the government has no legitimate role in regulating the content of communications law enforcement agencies must be prepared to forfeit their surveillance bludgeon they are soon and inevitably to be disarmed of it you mean they might have to go back to actually working to do their job oh heavens no such laws can be constitutionally sound and this is equivalent to a veiled threat which i don t appreciate this kind of extortion tends to agitate me and others into radicalism i will trade threats for threats and violation for violation perhaps the first amendment definitely the second and fifth if the administration did say this it would find itself impeached for reckless and outrageous disregard of essential established entrenched and explicit constitutional privacy guarantees the administration would have no legal standing whatsoever such an action would be egregiously illegal and criminal and wholly untolerated and disregarded by vast segments of the population unfortunately the vast segments of the population are misinformed they just haven t appended sr to the name of out country yet this is an outright dingaling denning lie the two aims of privacy and surveillance are intrinsically and fundamentally incompatible and you have to work for the nsa to think otherwise americans are about to discover ways through the use of technology to preserve their inalienable but forgotten freedoms that have slowly been eroded away by an increasingly distant and unresponsive and unrepresentative government i seriously doubt that the nsa thinks that privacy and surveillance are compatible i doubt of any smart person in any other agency thinks so either the problem is that they simply hold privacy to be of no value at all phil howard pdh netcom com ka wgn spell protection a right wing conservative capitalists are out to separate you from your money left wing liberal do gooders are out to separate you from everything else
sci.crypt	overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more in this giant bally ho over this clipper chip i noticed a rather disturbing trend in some of the e mail and posts i ve tossing back and forth somebody asked me what was wrong about overreacting in cases such as this the reason is very simple how many people do you want to die in a riot in a new civil war everybody is jumping up and down and screaming about it and i m worried that people are going to reach for their hammers and rifles before their pens and paper can people work within the system before trying to break it examine your history books and find out how many armed revolutions led to democratic or democratic style governments i think you ll only find one in over five thousand years of written history that s not very good odds somebody once said something like armed violence is meant only to be used in response to an armed attack it is not meant to be used in agression this is the difference between self defence and murder let s try to avoid killing things eh there s enough blood shed in the world without adding a couple of riots civil wars etc i m probably overreacting but what i ve read scared me a lot i don t want my children growing up in a war zone jerry han crc doc div of behavioural research jhan debra dgbt doc ca these are my opinions and my opinions only a proud and frozen member of the mighty warriors band memories of those i ve left behind still ringing in my ears genesis
sci.crypt	re tempest res colnet cmhnet org rob stampfli writes wouldn t a a second monitor of similar type scrolling gibberish and adjacent to the one being used provide reasonable resistance to tempest attacks we ve got a tempest receiver in the lab here and there s no difficulty in picking up individual monitors their engineering tolerances are slack enough that they tend to radiate on different frequencies even where they overlap you can discriminate because they have different line synch frequencies you can lock in on one and average the others out the signals are weird in any case with varying polarisations and all sorts of interactions with the building just moving a folded dipole around is also highly effective as a randomised means of switching from one monitor to another ross
sci.crypt	re new reason for clipper alg m secrecy in article apr news clarkson edu tuinstra signal ece clarkson edu soe dwight tuinstra writes first note that the experts will only look at details and of just the algorithm in addition respected experts from outside the government will be offered access to the confidential details of the algorithm to assess its capabilities and publicly report their findings why not the chip design well here s the possiblity in addition to encryption the chip pre processes voice signals to make them easier to analyze transcribe electronically the chip once widespread might effectively be part of a massively parallel computer for voice grepping the us phone network or the criminal wrong thinking patrons thereof first of all the chip doesn t do that it runs at megabits second which is far beyond what you need for voice it s obviously intended for data as well and on high speed lines at that second what advantage is there to doing the processing in the phone i don t care how fancy that chip is it s not as fancy as the roomful of analyzers at fort meade running the program they ll have years from now they can t update every clipper chip that s out there third if they did do this preprocessing in the chip it would probably have a serious effect on recognizability of the voice patterns if nothing else that would hurt the acceptability of the product the v bis modems are just barely fast enough to do a good job on properly massaged voice as is add any more to the mix and you re completely out of the ballpark
sci.crypt	s s second question why why is such a strange procedure used and not a real rng this turns those s s in a kind of bottleneck for system security the only theory that makes any sense is that s and s are either the same for all chips or vary among very few possibilities so that anyone trying to break the encryption by brute force need only plow through the possible serial numbers about one billion multiplied by the number of different s s combinations
sci.crypt	can des code be shipped to canada someone in canada asked me to send him some public domain des file encryption code i have is it legal for me to send it thanx eschew obfuscation rob defriesse mail rj ri cadre com cadre technologies inc phone richmond st fax providence ri i don t speak for my employer
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful from shirriff sprite berkeley edu ken shirriff message id r us oeh agate berkeley edu it seems likely to me that that a large subset of encrypted communications would be archived to tape so they could be read if sometime in the future probable cause arises and a warrant is obtained i think it is unlikely that data like this could be used in court currently leas can install wiretaps on large numbers of phones record calls without listening to them and then post facto obtain warrants and listen to calls after probable cause is established but this strategy wouldn t get the stuff admitted in court at least not in the near term in other words near as i can tell the thing that makes such evidence inadmissable is the interception without a warrant not the attempt to interpret what was intercepted without a warrant i d be surprised that archiving data without consent would be interpreted as anything but analogous to a wiretap by the courts note that that doesn t mean i think it won t be done if technically feasible just as i m sure many wiretaps are done now without warrants just to fish for avenues to investigate so in the future start surveilance start archiving data trump up some probable cause decrypt post facto after the warrant is in hand and the investigation gets a boost from data that sadly won t ever be presented to a jury while i m posting for an interesting cautionary tale projecting this archiving scenario to extremes read lacey and his friends a collection of sf stories by david drake the us starts down the slippery slope by archiving everyghing but don t worry folks it s stored in a secure repository where nobody but leas with warrants can get to it and by the way we ll be installing cameras on all major streets hey this is nothing new we already have cameras in banks and teller machines don t we and then we ll pass laws requiring cameras covering all public places then in some private places then we ll make it a crime ever to be out of range of a camera except in legally licensed privacy cubicles only alone and with a thorough body search before and after but see there s still a right to privacy we haven t curtailed any rights not really and just think how much easier it d be to solve crimes in such a situation just obtain a warrant put on a vr helmet and take a walk down memory lane and hey nobody ll be tracking you or me no need to be self conscious after all if you re not doing anything illegal funny though while speeding and the radar detector industry became pretty much a thing of the past somehow all this didn t elminate all crime in the story and somehow politicians got exemptions on grounds of national security and rich corporations got exemptions for their execs on grounds of industrial espionage and the preservation of competition and not everybody was exactly happy with the system i can t imagine why wayne throop throopw sheol concert net throop aurgate concert net
sci.crypt	idea vectors i am testing idea block cipher implementations for correctness and needs some golden test vectors i ve looked through the postscript idea chapter but the single example gives me zero degrees of freedom i ll contact the inventor if necessary but since we are not paying him money for use of his invention i d like to offload this from him anybody got vectors no disease vectors please grady netcom com ef e ad d d c f fc ac f d f e f
sci.crypt	re the secret source of that announcement in article c uxgv dv panix com habs panix com harry shapiro writes in r om c m slab mtholyoke edu jbotz mtholyoke edu jurgen botz writes even more interesting the smtp server at csrc ncsl nist gov no longer recognizes the expn and vrfy commands telnet csrc ncsl nist gov smtp trying connected to csrc ncsl nist gov escape character is first org sendmail nist ready at tue apr edt expn clipper command unrecognized seems like sombody didn t like your snooping around marc then it is a good thing we already have this the csspub mailing list csspab mail gw ncsl nist gov and address on rest of names deleted sigh my version of rn asked me whether i really want to send this posting you may as well know that all this stuff about the secret source of the clipper announcement is because of a silly mistake i am the administrator of csrc ncsl nist gov alias first org it s a system set up to help out the needs of first a forum of incident response and security teams which includes a number of world wide incident response teams such as cert cc and other places in europe as to the vrfy and expn commands they are normally disabled since early on we didn t want crackers to find out the names of incident response folks on our mailing lists we had a disk crash several months ago which required completely rebuilding the o s files same old story our backups weren t especially helpful as you can guess i didn t remember to re disable vrfy and expn until i saw people on the net trying to find out who was behind clipper csrc when i saw people s names posted here i felt it was time to clear things up so expn and vrfy on csrc have always been disabled in the past for reasons having nothing to do with clipper i posted the white house announcements at the request of policy folks here because csrc also provides usenet service i posted them from an account called clipper i also created an alias called clipper that contains the addresses of members of the nist computer security privacy and advisory board set up under law of the computer security act of and addresses of other individuals not affiliated with nist but involved in cryptography security and privacy i believe that these individuals were included on this list because nist felt it important to get them the clipper information first hand the clipper alias is there for the benefit of those named above it is not a source for information it was set up solely to monitor any initial traffic individuals on the list have requested that they continue to get traffic that is not already duplicated on usenet while you can rightfully say we were a bit disorganized in handling this i would ask that people stop speculating about any hidden agendas or motives of the individuals on the clipper alias i ve already apologized to them for what s happened disabling expn and vrfy is an increasingly common practice albeit unfriendly to some and any effect of disabling it again was unintentional john wack
sci.crypt	re do we need the clipper for cheap security in article aa pizzabox demon co uk gtoal gtoal com graham toal writes gtoal gtoal com graham toal writes in the uk it s impossible to get approval to attach any crypto device to the phone network anything that plugs in to our bt phone sockets must be approved for some reason crypto devices just never are whats the difference between a v bis modem and a v bis modem i m not being entirely silly here what i m pointing out is that the modems that they have already approved for data transmission will work just fine to transmit scrambled vocoded voice absolutely i just meant that no secure dedicated crypto device has ever been given approval guerrilla underground devices should be well possible with today s high speed modems not that i can think of many v bis modems that are approved either mind you just the overpriced couriers can someone tell me if hardware compression is or is not needed to run digital speech down k i think it is i ve heard it s not lets say bit samples would raw data at the corresponding sampling rate be usable if not how fancy does the compression need to be reasonably fancy standard voice circuits run at kbps inter exchange in the us therefore you need to achieve to get standard voice quality if you re willing to give up some quality you need only this is still acceptable from a speech standpoint it will be a little less faithful to the original but certainly intelligable that s all you really need for this application karl denninger karl genesis mcs com you can never please everyone except data line by bankrupting yourself live internet in chicago an mcsnet first
sci.crypt	re new encryption in article apr wam umd edu psionic wam umd edu haywood j blowme writes as promised i spoke today with the company mentioned in a washington times article about the clipper chip announcement the name of the company is secure communications technology information will be given at the end of this message on how to contact them his belief is that at t was made known of the clipper well before the rest of the industry this is for several reasons several of which are this is a very good point at t obviously knew and participated in the development of the clipper chip this amounts to unfair business practice and gives at t an early monopoly on the market hopefully a non existant market other companies that compete with at t in the cellular market motorola nec etc have grounds to file a complaint over this right now the company is afraid that the new clipper chip will put them out of business this is a very real possibility so they really need help in stopping the clipper chip from becoming a standard if you want to contact them they can be reached at secure communications technology georgia ave suite silver spring md it would seem that the one fact that the government has overlooked in this whole fiasco is the economic standpoint as others have mentioned the most difficulty the clipper chip faces is an economic one let s face it the average consumer doesn t care or know that the clipper is a bad idea if there is a perceived need for cellular encryption then the companies will provide one most likely a standard will emerge but if the clipper is too expensive and a chip is way too much then they will develope their own or buy a cheaper one i give sct my full support and hope the clipper chip goes the way of the beta video tape format also hope they get sued over re using the name clipper cyberspace david t croley mcc exp sys lab a place not real no stone no steel croley mcc com ut austin texas a ghost unseen the world between
sci.crypt	looking for crypto paper looking for postscript or tex version of a paper called public key cryptography written by james nechvatal security technology group national computer systems laboratory national institute of standards and technology gaithersburg md december the version i obtained is plain text and all symbolic character formatting has been lost gregb tosgcla den mmc com
sci.crypt	re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more somebody asked me what was wrong about overreacting in cases such as this the reason is very simple how many people do you want to die in a riot in a new civil war not me which is precisely why the government must be cut off at the knees when it pulls stunts like this lest the situation worsen to the point where extreme measures are required
sci.crypt	public awareness wasre text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption in article rwing uucp pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes i think this is no accident it comes from the same philosophy that the government rules controls the people not the people controlling the government that the unconnected citizens are not sophisticated enough to know what is best for them so the government must tell the people what they need or do not need we know best and the idea that that a commoner can defend himself against government eavesdropping or unlawful attack is totally unacceptable to people with this outlook combine this all with pushing for national identity cards with smart chips to encode anything they please internal passport under the guise of streamlining the state people s health care system and with you can be certain more jewels yet to come and one sees an extremely ominous trend so what if will be ten years late it still is turning out to be an amazingly accurate prophecy unless a lot of people wake up and in a hurry one should always have every red warning light and bell and danger flag come up when the government seeks to set itself apart in regard to rights etc from the unconnected unprivileged citizen or should we now be saying subject instead why shouldn t the average person have a good secure system of data security not dependent on nebulous safeguards for maintaining that security why shouldn t the average person be able to defend himself from an agency gone rogue i am sure the feds could break into any data they really wanted to but it would take some work and using the same logic one should not be allowed to have a good safe unless a duplicate of the key s or combination are submitted for safekeeping by the government i don t really see a difference philosophically encrypted data sure won t evaporate not with such high tech tools as a tape recorder the average amerikan today seems to think that the government should be able to eavesdrop on everyone else opinion polls show that most people belive the bill of rights to grant too much freedom to people when it is not identified as such btw if anyone knows of a cite for that i d love to have it not only does this mean that these people are willing to give up everyone else s rights they don t even know what the bill of rights actually says how can we show the average person not the average usenet reader that people are actually entitiled to these rights so many people don t care if the government is taking more and more control of us all a little at a time if there was some sort of awareness of what the government is trying to do by a majority of the us population just think about what could be accomplished but there are so many that trust unthinkingly in whatever the media and government tell them
sci.crypt	ideas on clipper i have an idea as to why the encryption algorithm needs to be keep secret and some things that i think it implies of course these could all be wrong from the clipper chip a technical summary dorothy denning revised april the clipper chip contains a classified single key bit block encryption algorithm called skipjack the algorithm uses bit keys compared with for the des and has rounds of scrambling compared with for the des it supports all des modes of operation the algorithm takes clock ticks and in electronic codebook ecb mode runs at mbits per second each chip includes the following components the skipjack encryption algorithm f an bit family key that is common to all chips n a bit serial number this length is subject to change u an bit secret key that unlocks all messages encrypted with the chip encrypting with the chip to see how the chip is used imagine that it is embedded in the at t telephone security device as it will be suppose i call someone and we both have such a device after pushing a button to start a secure conversation my security device will negotiate an bit session key k with the device at the other end this key negotiation takes place without the clipper chip in general any method of key exchange can be used such as the diffie hellman public key distribution method once the session key k is established the clipper chip is used to encrypt the conversation or message stream m digitized voice the telephone security device feeds k and m into the chip to produce two values e m k the encrypted message stream and e e k u n f a law enforcement field which are transmitted over the telephone line the law enforcement field thus contains the session key k encrypted under the unit key u concatenated with the serial number n all encrypted under the family key f the law enforcement field is decrypted by law enforcement after an authorized wiretap has been installed suppose i knew how the algorithm worked and knew the n for my chip but did not know f then by cryptanalysis i might be able to determine f from if law enforcement field e e k u n f not knowing n would might make this much harder now suppose that i know f either legitimately or not if i know k either because i am involved in the conversation or i know u for a party in the conversation i may now be able to determine u for the other party if i know f i can also defeat the law enforcement field since i could make my own with a different k then the one i am using knowing f also allows traffic analysis to be performed so i might not know what you are saying but i could know who you are saying it too now i admit that someone trying to compute u will not have lots of messages to work from but since we have no way of knowing that the key generation method does not deliberately generate weak keys or for that matter that the published method is in fact used perhaps the u s will be chosen from know weak keys for the system obviously the compromise of f would be a disaster both to law enforcement for whom this whole thing is designed and for the people who believe that it is giving them security f is but one number and i sure that alot of people more then know what it is and if some panel of experts is going to check it over for flaws then many more will know f forget grinding chips bribery and blackmail work just fine so am i wrong or are these problems jon
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article r t mc access digex net steve b access digex com steve brinich writes i wonder if she landed such a fat fee from cooperation with the nsa in the design and propoganda stages that she doesn t care any more which is to say is the nsa totally perfidious or does it at least have the redeeming virtue of taking care of its own g of course they take care of their own very well until the person has outlived his her undefined usefulness then elimination becomes a consideration pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien
sci.crypt	re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip in article strnlghtc wcmo fx netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes at the company i worked for previously i received a file that was des encryped and the person that had sent it went on vaction rather than wait two weeks i set up a straight frontal attack with one key at a time it only took two days to crack the file no i don t have any faith in des taking this at face value though it seems quite dissonant with much else that has been published here about brute force des cracking unless russell was lucky with respect to the key i d be very interested in whether the program russell used is available key search is very practical in many real situations since people use such stupid keys on the average password crackers know this well depending on his answer this could be an appalling development calling into question both des and rsa des not really in fact public key based communication systems very often pick keys automatically which are much better than passwords or pass phrases if any bright programmer with a little idle machine time can crack a single des message in a couple of days assuming no tricks that are message specific if a person picked the password or pass phrase then the key search is pretty straightforward in running english text the average content of a single word is about bits in pass phrases this may increase to bits or so searching bit spaces is semi practical even in software and searching bit spaces isn t outrageous to imagine with hardware assists of moderate size
sci.crypt	re organized lobbying for cryptography in article c uprt gmq dcs ed ac uk pdc dcs ed ac uk paul crowley writes perhaps these encryption only types would defend the digitized porn if it was posted encrypted these issues are not as seperable as you maintain in fact since effective encryption makes censorship impossible they are almost the same issue and they certainly fall into the brief of the eff it also falls within the purview of the aclu but that doesn t mean the aclu or the eff would be the most effective instrument to win the hearts and minds in favor of access to cryptography it s precisely slogans like cryptography makes censorship impossible which stand to torpedo any attempt to generate a broad consensus in favor of encryption it is not true and in the context of a public debate it would be a dangerous red herring advocates of strong crypto had better prepare themselves to answer such charges in pragmatic terms that laypeople and politicians can sympathize with the usual mumblings about constitutional amendments are not enough tal kubo math harvard edu
sci.crypt	re the secret source of that announcement in article gradyc uamw bng netcom com grady netcom com ef writes maybe we should start a newsgroup for the distribution of encrypted posts intended of members of affinity groups with a shared private key for example at the coming up cypherpunks meeting a private key corresponding to that particular meeting could be passed out by a moderator minutes followup comments to other participants and so on could be posted to the alt encrypted group for the use of the people who attended communiques intended by the group for non attendees could of course just be signed using the private key but otherwises not encrypted i like it pgp would be useful i guess although i don t have a working version for vms yet grady netcom com ef e ad d d c f fc ac f d f e f david l cathey inet davidc montagar com montagar software concepts uucp montagar davidc p o box plano tx fone
sci.crypt	re once tapped your code is no good any more in article apr celestial com bill celestial com bill campbell writes in strnlghtc p zp zm netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes in article apr yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes note that measures to protect yourself from tempest surveillance are still classified as far as i know i think this to be inaccurate one can buy tempest equipment commercially even macs sure you can buy a tempest approved mac if you have enough money i haven t had any reason to look at this type of pricing for about years but a tempest rating in would raise the price of a radio shack model iii to something around or just dig a deep enough hole in the ground feet should do it redsonja olias linet org rs self possession is of the law alien we control the laws of nature how come when it s human it s an joel and you still dress that way abortion but when it s a chicken mst k gamera vs guiron it s an omelet george carlin
sci.crypt	let s build software cryptophones for over the internet well after a lot of trawling through archives i found the post i reproduce in full below is it time to get together to develop a tcp ip standard for crypto voice that we could then layer on point to point slip as the free standard for crypto voice like pgp is for mail ps note the date of this post appropriate huh from jpcampb afterlife ncsc mil thu jul from jpcampb afterlife ncsc mil joe campbell newsgroups comp compression research subject re sound compression algorithms date jul gmt organization the great beyond in article jun sequent com lff sequent com lou fernandez writes the techniques for production systems revolve around code excited linear prediction celp algorithms which capture ms or so of speech and attempt to match the speech with a combination of signals from a codebook choosing the combination which minimizes the error in case you d like to experiment with celp you can obtain a software implementation of the bps fed std celp coder for free the u s dod s federal standard based bps code excited linear prediction voice coder version celp fortran and c simulation source codes are now available for worldwide distribution at no charge on dos diskettes but configured to compile on sun sparc stations from bob fenichel national communications system washington d c fax in addition to the source codes example input and processed speech files are included along with a technical information bulletin to assist in implementation of fs celp an anonymous ftp site is being considered for future releases copies of the actual standard federal standard telecommunications analog to digital conversion of radio voice by bit second code excited linear prediction celp are available for each from gsa rm th d st sw washington d c the following articles describe the federal standard kbps celp coder it s unnecessary to read more than one campbell joseph p jr thomas e tremain and vanoy c welch the federal standard bps celp voice coder digital signal processing academic press vol no p campbell joseph p jr thomas e tremain and vanoy c welch the dod kbps standard proposed federal standard in advances in speech coding ed atal cuperman and gersho kluwer academic publishers chapter p campbell joseph p jr thomas e tremain and vanoy c welch the proposed federal standard bps voice coder celp speech technology magazine april may p for u s fed std bps celp realtime dsp code and information about products using this code contact john dellamorte dsp software engineering middlesex tpk suite bedford ma fax dspse bedford channel com dsp software engineering s code can run on a dsp research s tiger board a pc board with a tms c x and analog interface suited to development work or on intellibit s ae tms c based by card dsp research intellibit e duane ave p o box sunnyvale ca mclean va fax fax joe campbell n jbc jpcampb afterlife ncsc mil compuserve com my opinions are mine happiness reality expectations click clack
sci.crypt	re fighting the clipper initiative in article he pb rhyolite wpd sgi com vjs rhyolite wpd sgi com vernon schryver writes in article strnlghtc toc kiu netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes even the department of agriculture has successfully kept crop forecasts from leaking prematurely sheesh remember the big scandal a year or two or ago about exactly such leaks my choice for the escow house would be the smithsonian and someplace on the west coast my biggest concern isn t that the escrow house could be compromised it will be but the fact it has been compromised will be kept secret the keys could be kept under glass with hour c span coverage if you thought your key had been stolen just turn on the cable and wait until the roving camera reachs the musuem case with your key or if you think the c span satellite has been compromised take a tour of the smithsonian yourself and view the seal on your key sean donelan data research associates inc st louis mo domain sean sdg dra com voice work
sci.crypt	re let s build software cryptophones for over the internet i forwarded an old posting about celp speech compression in case you d like to experiment with celp you can obtain a software implementation of the bps fed std celp coder for free the u s dod s federal standard based bps code excited linear prediction voice coder version celp fortran and c simulation source codes are now available for worldwide distribution at no charge on dos diskettes but configured to compile on sun sparc stations from i ve since been told that the source of this is on cygnus com in pub celp speech tar z i m not in a position to any sun tcp ip gurus out there who think they can marry this with netfone by the end of the week seriously i think someone with real net access and two sparcs could have this running by the end of the week then we ask the pgp guys to add a bytestream crypto filter two weeks at the most damn i wish i had my sparc back i m stuck on a mhz sx share and enjoy g ps you ll have to use archie to find netfone i have a copy but no note of where it s from author in the docs is kelvin autodesk com and he appears to be located in france
sci.crypt	re do we need the clipper for cheap security from caronni nessie cs id ethz ch germano caronni in article aa pizzabox demon co uk gtoal gtoal com graham toal writes can someone tell me if hardware compression is or is not needed to run digital speech down k i think it is i ve heard it s not lets say bit samples would raw data at the corresponding sampling rate be usable if not how fancy does the compression need to be as far as i know isdn call it swissnet here and it s being plugged in it s bit hz gives you one channel of kbit sec i guess you should not go below a sampling rate of hz if you want to have same quality as on an analog line anybody knows compression algorithms factors for voice i ve posted some info on celp coding on sci crypt looks like you can squeeze speech into bps if you have a fast enough computer like a sparcstation or a newton with the acorn risc machine in it this drops the bandwidth to so low a figure that it s feasible to run speech over tcp ip running on top of slip down a v bis modem not only will this let us run point to point encrypted speech it ll let us run speech internationally over the internet if no one stops us by getting very heavy about regulations the thought of this if the administration realised would probably scare them shitless now of course the trick is to develop and define a standard protocol for internet speech damn fast allowing anyone who feels brave to inplement custom handheld hardware as well as us hacking it on our workstations shouldn t be too difficult the celp stuff is standardised we use tcp ip streams and a protocol allowing silences to be used to catch up on any net lag and also to avoid sending any data during silences ie it s not wise to be synchronised real time on each end because any net delays would add up to big voice lags as for me i m going to press ahead on trying this stuff as soon as i get my sparc back from being loaned out and buy the necessary microphone it ll save me a fortune in calling my friend in texas every night whether encrypted or not you know surely someone is working on this who it s so obvious why doesn t it exist already i ve only seen netphone for suns and it didn t do the celp compression so was restricted to ether connections g
sci.crypt	re would clipper make a good cover for other encryption method from brad optilink com brad yearwood assume in this case the usual canard adversary of narcotraficantes they probably have more cash than the kgb did and they re probably more generous at handing it out it will be easier than ever to find or cultivate walkers and pollards for the keys and it will be easy enough to find someone to reverse engineer the chip unless the tamper proofing is damned clever and effective if the administration really believes big time drug dealers are the threat personally i thought it was the cia and the air force that did all the real drug shipping then they ought to take this seriously unlike the kgb drug dealers can make a most convincing argument for cooperation help us and we ll be nice and give you some money don t help us and we ll start cutting off your favourite body parts after all it was probably an argument like that that persuaded jack ruby to shoot oswald in full view of the police life in jail probably seems much more preferable to most people than several weeks of something nasty followed by no life at all g
sci.crypt	re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip at the company i worked for previously i received a file that was des encryped and the person that had sent it went on vaction rather than wait two weeks i set up a straight frontal attack with one key at a time it only took two days to crack the file no i don t have any faith in des a g fun three questions what hardware did you use when you found the key was there anything about it that was special that meant you had been lucky to find it early like the first bits all being or did you mean a dictionary attack rather than a binary key attack g
sci.crypt	re pgp ideas for ibm systems i ve been thinking about how difficult it would be to make pgp available in some form on ebcdic machines don t encourage them let ebcdic machines die an honorable death g
sci.crypt	re is key escrow enough the points raised about checking what is actually in the chip as opposed to what is allegedly programmed therein raise yet another trust issue even if we assume that these trusted agents are really entering a wide range of s and s seeds rather than using the same one all the time to reduce the key search space to bits i assume they are not doing so by picking up an iron filing and poking it into the circuitry at carefully selected points to encode data they would presumably be punching numbers into a computer which for all they know could program the chips in a manner completely independent of the s and s values they are feeding into the system s and s are clearly the backdoor we should assume they are all compromised if they re not compromisable why the hell not use a hardware true random number source there isn t a random number source anywhere in this proposal the whole thing is deterministic from the day the serial number is stamped on the chip nope it can t be trusted this is all about two levels of access the possibly honest key escrow that police forces have to use and ostensibly the fbi and the back door that lets the nsa decode everything on the fly and maybe some back handers to the fbi when they want a warrantless tab in exchange for favours g
sci.crypt	re do we need the clipper for cheap security there are chips which perform the voice compression expansion they can t be expensive because they exist in many phones connected to pbxs or on the pbx line cards as well as in a lot of equipment which compresses voice grade circuits to save the cost of long distance leased t s or satellite circuits i can t remember the generic term for these chips my impression is that this was a big deal years ago but circuits have gotten so cheap that it isn t done much now codecs they have to get about compression on bit samples to squeeze them down v bis i played around with the lossless shorten program last night but it only managed i ve got some specimen celp code but it s not obvious that it runs in real time i think it s just proof of concept code and i have some mucking about with file formats to do before i can put my own sample through it looks like the current option is to use a voice mail modem with built in dsp chip to do this in hardware that means two modems for a system putting the cost at upwards ouch maybe soon we ll be able to do it in software on high powered games consoles isn t the do an acorn risc machine inside that cpu runs like shit off a shovel and will be nicely mass market too g
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful from pmetzger snark shearson com perry e metzger you obviously haven t read the information about the system the chips put out serial number infomation into the cypher stream to allow themselves to be identified the system does not rely on registering people as owning particular phone units and probably as a back door to allow re generation of the secret key have we determined yet that s and s don t ever change g
sci.crypt	re clipper considered harmful does dorothy denning read this group if not is someone on the group forwarding questions like these to her or martin hellman or anyone else who s seen more details about the chip of course she does it s just she s been toasted so often for being an nsa patsy that she s keeping her head down you can always mail her directly as denning guvax acc georgetown edu denning cs cosc georgetown edu or denning cs georgetown edu g
sci.electronics	re help with tracking device in article fba e ff aesop rutgers edu mcdonald aesop rutgers edu writes there are a variety of water proof housings i could use but the real meat of the problem is the electronics hence this posting what kind of transmission would be reliable underwater in murky or even night time conditions i m not sure if sound is feasible given the distortion under water obviously direction would have to be accurate but range could be relatively short i imagine or hundred yards would be more than enough jim mcdonald refer to patents by james harris rogers he details methods of underground and underwater wireless communications for a review refer to electrical experimenter march and june rogers methods were used extensively during the world war and was unclassified after the war supposedly the government rethought this soon after and rogers was convieniently forgotten the bottom line is that all antennas that are grounded send half of their signal thru the ground the half that travels thru space is quickly dissapated by the square of the distance but that which travels thru the ground does not disapate at all furthermore the published data showed that when noise drowned out regular reception the underground antennas would recieve virtually noise free if you find this hard to believe then refer to the work of the man who invented wireless tesla tesla confirmed that rogers methods were correct while hertzian wave theory was completely abberant et tesla was years ahead of his time perhaps now his time comes
sci.electronics	new england ham electronic fleamarket dates april update new england area major flea market dates p of all events are ham radio electronic related except contact source april upper saddle river nj crrc sell jack w ehd d april southington ct sara hs n gcv f april nashua nh ne antique rc res ctr church ray april cambridge ma flea at mit nick f buy a sellers sp a in adv for season pass rd sunday each month april thru october april webster ma ecara pt breeze rest tables gary f april agawam ma hcra southwick rec ctr a bob w zgp f april dayton oh adm sell evenings f may yonkers ny lincoln hs otto wb slq a may rochester nh hoss traders fg ex off rt noon fri wa ivb sase may n smithfield ri rifmrs vfw main st a rick k kyi may cambridge ma flea at mit nick f may pittsfield ma taconic hs sell buy cliff w sjv may rochester ny arrl ny conv monroe fg harold k hc f june s burlington vt mitch wb jsj june newington ct hs flea les ka krp june bangor me pine st arc hermon es am roger june cambridge ma flea at mit nick f july nashua nh ne antique rc res ctr church ray july union me fairground am state conv skeet ka lpw last update de w gsl p of additions corrections via internet w gsl athena mit edu us mail w gsl pob mit br cambridge ma sase for updated copy as issued contact source july cambridge ma flea at mit nick f rd sunday each month april thru october july manchester nh nhara hi a ne dc ts no tg wb hbb f aug white planes ny wecafest sarah n eyx d aug wellseley ma wars bars babson college barry wn n t aug st albans me snow mobile club hitch k hhc aug cambridge ma flea at mit nick f aug fall river ma bcra tom wa lbk t sept windsor me fairground am skeet ka lpw sept gaithersburg md far mg cty fg a tg nancy drahim j sept s dartmouth ma se mass ara a dan n hcv sept cambridge ma flea at mit nick f sept sandy hook ct candlewood ara harold kb us a sept greenbush me wcsn barc wcsn xmtr ed cockburn sept framingham ma hs barry wn n f sept yonkers ny metro arc otto wb slq a oct rochester nh hoss traders fg ex off rt noon fri k rqg oct cambridge ma flea at mit nick f nov plymouth ma mayflower rc mem hall sell jim nm f nov branford ct scara intrm sch brad wa tas t last update de w gsl p of source f flyer j john roberts list a arrl list wr nv cq qst mags t tentative early info d w dl new info this month this list has been compiled from many sources while we believe the info to be accurate the author can not be responsible for changes or errors check with the sponsoring organizations for more details this list will be posted monthly to usenet if additions have been made mailed copies are sent when additions are made additions corrections via internet w gsl athena mit edu us mail w gsl pob mit br cambridge ma sase for updated copy as issued
sci.electronics	re electronic tesla coils in article mar wuecl wustl edu dp cec wustl edu david prutchi writes in article c cntg jv spk hp com long spk hp com jerry long writes fred w culpepper fculpepp norfolk vak ed edu wrote a couple of years ago i put together a tesla circuit which was published in an electronics magazine and could have been the circuit which is referred to here this one used a flyback transformer from a tv onto which you wound your own primary windings it also used power transistors in a to years ago i built a volt tesla and the thing was very spectacular but besides scaring amazing friends depending on their knowledge of science and generating strong emi i never found anything useful that could be done with it is there any real world application for tesla coils today david prutchi first of all realize that tesla invented ac power generators motors transformers conductors etc technically all transformers are tesla coils in general though when someone refers to a tesla coil they mean an air core resonant transformer the tv flyback version tesla coil see the encyclopedia of electronic circuits v for diagram has not an air core it is of a class of circuit called oscillating shuttle circuit osc generally osc s are highly efficient but this version uses transistors and resistors which are very lossy devices typically tesla used active reactances instead of passive resistors so that he could achieve efficiencies of and better the usual application of an air core resonant transformer or of an osc is to produce strong emi for wireless broadcasts how well do you think your computer screen would work if we removed the hf hv tesla flyback coil from it if we were to remove from our homes and industries all tesla coils our lights would go dark our cars would sputter and die our radios would go silent our industries would grind to a halt and we would have to go back to using coal for heat gas for lamps horses for transportation steam for power and telegraph for communication is that real world enough for you get the message we would not have the convieniences we have today if not for tesla give credit where credit is due if it had been up to edison we d still be in the th century flame me at your own peril i m very good at putting edison down et tesla was years ahead of his time perhaps now his time comes
sci.electronics	re radar jammers and stealth cars eric h taylor writes if you are determined to go faster get an airplane they dont have speed limits just don t make a habit of buzzing your local airport at knots knots if you re flying a jet
sci.electronics	wanted protel easytrax for the mac the title says it all contact me via email if you would can help me out mike harpe university of louisville p s i know it is discontinued i want someone who would like to sell an old copy michael harpe programmer analyst information technology ormsby bldg harpe hermes louisville edu university of louisville louisville ky he s not a man he s a remorseless eating machine the simpsons
sci.electronics	re what is zero db sehari iastate edu babak sehari writes similarly people usually use db for dbm another common mistake is spelling db instead of db as you did in your article see the b is for bell company the mother of at t and should be capitalized thus a decibell deci l tenth of bell is a fractional part of the original bell for example southwestern bell is a decibell and the measure of current amp is actually named after both the amp company and the amphenol company both companies revolutionized electronics by simulatenously realizing that the performance of connectors and sockets were affected by the amount of current running through the wires the ohmite company was the first to characterize resistances by numbers thus our use of the ohms alexander graham bell actually is where bell came from actually bel refers with highest regards babak sehari joseph chiu josephc cco caltech edu os you gotta get this thing msc caltech pasadena ca os the operating system of tomorrow today
sci.electronics	site for projects does anyone out there know of any ftp sites which deal with electronics projects plans etc any response appreciated jb jason blakey blakey ug cs dal ca
sci.electronics	access bus was i c bus from mx andy macrae corp sun com apr to srgxnbs cc subj re i c bus and long haul serial also axlo return path andy macrae corp sun com received from sun com by grv grace cri nz mx v c with smtp tue apr received from corp sun com lemay corp sun com by sun com smi id aa mon apr pdt received from grendal corp sun com by corp sun com elliemay corpmail inbound id aa mon apr pdt received by grendal corp sun com smi id aa mon apr pdt date mon apr pdt from andy macrae corp sun com andrew macrae message id aa grendal corp sun com to srgxnbs grace cri nz subject re i c bus and long haul serial also axlo cc andy macrae corp sun com content length in article pii innk t zephyr grace cri nz you write whats required to get onto the access bus the nice thing about the i c is that most i o requires one pin dil chip ie its cheap and easy anyone can design a bus trouble is most buses require a host of interface chips and often on board intelligence bruce for the latest information on access bus call the access bus industry group at also sun will be hosting the next meeting of the group on april th here in mountain view for some reason i am not able to post to any newsgroups today so please feel free to pass this information on yourself as you see fit andrew macrae
sci.electronics	re jacob s ladder g m alpha ru ac za brad meier writes hi i m looking for a circuit that is called a jacob s ladder this little box is usually seen in sci fi movies it consists of two curves of wire protruding into the air with little blue sparks starting at their base where the two wires are closer to each other moving up the wires to the top and ending in a small crackling noise could anyone supply me with the schematic for the innards of this box thanks in advance mike please reply by email to g k alpha ru ac za the knightorc g m hippo ru ac za when it s over i ll go home until then i stay me i d like any accumulated information on this as well please thanks baden de bari o o baden sys bison ca baden inqmind bison ca
sci.electronics	wanted dram controller for use with mc hc for an upcoming project i want to use megs of dram configured as two meg banks of bit data i was wondering if anyone out there knows of a dram controller which will handle refreshing the data it s ok if the controller doesn t handle bank switching that part is easy the only controllers i know of are the ones out of the national semiconductor dram management handbook edition eg dp i would like to know if another manufacturer produces one which may be easier to implement in my circuit btw if anyone is wanting to hook up dram to a microcontroller dallas semiconductor makes a neat chip the ds serial dram nonvolatizer chip it uses the spi i c bus and refreshes controls up to mx of dram memory it can use an external battery to refresh the dram when the power is off price is from dallas quan i wish i could use this chip but its maximum spi clock rate is mhz too slow for me thanks in advance wayne schellekens schellew wu wl aecl ca wayne schellekens ve wts internet schellew wu wl aecl ca aecl research ax ve wts ve kv wpg mb can whiteshell laboratories twisted pair x
sci.electronics	re hv diodes in article pohuq sq grouper mkt csd harris com wdh grouper mkt csd harris com w david higgins writes i believe the only thing that needs correction mr vanderbyl is your attitude nope mr myers has found the bad mistake and posted a correction thank god acting the child won t gain you any favors or make a who s acting positive impression with anybody ghod knows you ve make an impression on me just not a positive one oh no i haven t impressed mr higgins
sci.electronics	an external timer i was wondering if anyone knows of a chip that that is similar to the internal timer on the intel c i want a timer that has a maxcount a and b and the output should the same as intel s timer i called intel and they told me that they don t make such a chip any suggestions are welcome thanks in advance rajan ranga e mail rajan cco caltech edu
sci.electronics	re re using old databooks in article apr hemlock cray com kilian cray com alan kilian writes jeh cmkrnl com this is almost exactly the reason i keep only the latest databook around too many times last years books turn into three years ago and the data in them doesn t match the current production parts tanstaafl alan kilian but if you are in the habit of trying to repair old and obsolete machines the old data books are a goldmine of information you can not get anywhere else if you are trying to find a modern replacement for an obsolete part the original specs really come in handy design out of the new books but save the old ones or donate them to a ham if anybody in phoenix disagrees i ll drive over and help them get rid of all their old data books john data books and growing
sci.electronics	homebuilt pal epld programer anyone know a reasonable circuit for programming pals i am interested in programming a wide range of eplds but would be happy with something that could handle a v or thereabouts thanks in advance tim timd fenian dell com rev tim deagan official obnoxious poster no one but me is responsible for anything i write believe in or preach it is difficult to free fools from chains they revere voltaire
sci.electronics	a d board bus speed probl c hi c i have a dx mhz computer to use with an a d board c for data acquisition on an at bus i m having problems c the at bus runs at mhz correct so there should c be no bus speed conflict but i read somewhere that the c new dx mhz cpu runs on a mhz bus is that for c the local bus or the at bus also if so then i have a problem c c when i run on non turbo mode the speed goes to mhz and the c a d doesn t work please mail your views thanks c vincent c cyl musica mcgill ca c the standard at bus isa runs at mhz not mhz but some non stnadard isa buses do have higher clock rates but be careful since some boards don t work with faster than standard rates for instance my has adjustable at bus speeds and my pas audio card chokes when i do ad data acquisition with a bus speed faster than mhz the fact that non turbo mode speed a d doesn t work is weird you may have a motherboard with a hardware bug mhz bus on the dx does refer to the local bus fyi the at bus operates asynchronously and is linked to the local bus via a bus interface which is one function that your chipset rdd winqwk b unregistered evaluation copy kmail d w net hq hal k ann arbor mi us or hal bbs qwk to usenet gateway four v bis dial ins free usenet mail and newsgroups pcboard am uupcb kmail call or member of eff asp asad mb disk serving ann arbor since
sci.electronics	re pc parallel i o r jd all pc parallel ports that are compatable with the ibm standard r jd including the original ibm adaptor are bi directional not all parallel ports are bi directional without modification my experience with the standard old zenith parallel port in their original s proves that they had the input direction disactiviated by tieing them r w select line of the circuit to vcc to make it bi which i did i had to modify it by scraping off the trace and solder a jump to the proper location i thought that this was just lazy on the part of zenith they were not zenith bull group at that time rdd winqwk b unregistered evaluation copy kmail d w net hq hal k ann arbor mi us or hal bbs qwk to usenet gateway four v bis dial ins free usenet mail and newsgroups pcboard am uupcb kmail call or member of eff asp asad mb disk serving ann arbor since
sci.electronics	re telephone on hook off hok ok circuit these circuits abound in most electronic project books if you re more inclined to buy something try radio shack i think they still have a device that is designed to disconnect an answering machine when an extension line is lifted it has led indicators also kyler
sci.electronics	re police radar just how does it work in article afge wb dvu juts ccc amdahl com dws p ps cd amdahl com david sharpe writes there are a few more details to radar and some rumors that are not true a common one is that two beams are sent one reading the car speed and one the ground speed if this were true then calabration would be murder hope this helps flame on gee then i guess the extra horn that s mounted in the floor of some sdpd cars firing at the ground at a shallow angle is just for show huh for calibration they simply turn off one horn or the other jamie hanrahan kernel mode systems san diego ca internet jeh cmkrnl com uucp uunet cmkrnl jeh cis
sci.electronics	re log stereo high quality pot hi fi in article apr eng cam ac uk cmh eng cam ac uk c m hicks writes cobust seagoon ee sun ac za cobus theunissen writes hi there i am looking for a high quality log stereo k pot for an audio preamplifier the design specifies alps rkga k ax but i cannot find it anywhere any suggestions the best pots around imho are made by penny giles in the uk their basic model has a solid brass case and conductive plastic elements matched to db across the whole rotation the downside is that they cost upwards of quid each the p g pots are very good the alps ones are usually carried by the same folks who run the audio amateur magazine i ll also recommend the noble potentiometers if you don t mind weird metric sizes on everything scott
sci.electronics	re police radar just how does it work in article pqb ainn vg hp col col hp com cab col hp com chris best writes the manual also got into the cosine effect wherein the motorist always gets the benefit of the doubt effectively depending on relative directions of the radar gun and target car the reading will always be the same as or lower than the actual speed of the car never higher and always remember that the cop doesn t even need radar to ticket you his her word as a skilled observer is enough the father of a friend of mine is a police officer in west virginia not only is his word as a skilled observer good in court but his skill as an observer has been tested to be more accurate than the radar gun in some cases no foolin he can guess a car s speed to within mph just by watching it blow by whether he s standing still or moving too yes i realize that calibrated guns are more accurate than this but his ability is not that uncommon among people who watch moving things for a living i have heard so what good is a radar detector except to give you a split second warning that the guy who just cut you off to pass the guy ahead and to your left is about to panic stop from on a crowded freeway mark s underwood ee student university of kentucky lab assistant boyd hall microlab a tiny little division of uk library microlabs e mail msunde mik uky edu
sci.electronics	re help with ultra long timing thanks for the resposes as they were all good ideas and i am looking at using a couple of the ideas i recieved in the mail today the spec sheets on the mil spec version of exar s xr timer counter chip it is stable down to c and sucks very little power they show an application for a ultra long time delay up to several years depending on the rc time constant in this application they have two of them cascaded together the reset and trigger pins of both chips are tied together and the timebase of the second chip is disabled in this configuration the output is high when the system is reset when triggered the output goes low and stays that way for a total of x the timing cycle of the first chip the total timing cycle of the two chips can be programmed from to x r x c to x r x c in steps by selecting any combination of the counter outputs to the timer output the beauty of it is the timebase chip would only have to have a uf timing cap and a k resistor for seconds per timing cycle so i can get a maximum of seconds between timing cycles x or about days of course that s much more than i need days but the counter allows for binary steps that can be selected for the output for the pellet puker after the first days and it trips it would reset its self for the next day timing cycle and so forth power is still a problem though a few ideas that you suggested was to bury the electronics in a hole dug in the snow as an insulator and put the pellet puker up on a tower above the estimated snow fall with a solar panel on it to keep a charge on a lithium battery pack i like that idea this thing has to work for at least six weeks for three samples and the gas valves are volts to spit the pellets out onto the snow anyway i ordered the xr s to see what i can do with them should be interesting as long as i m not the one that has to go digging up the pellets in the middle of antartica freezing my buns off thanks again everyone wes
sci.electronics	re pc based layout program frank hielscher hielsche aragorn csee lehigh edu wrote the pads zip files contain subdirectories and have to be unzipped via pkunzip d then an xcopy s to three floppies creates the disks needed to do the install i m still not sure how this is supposed to work since the zip files took up about mb so it must be a tight squeeze on those floppies however i managed to install pads and i m pretty impressed i created a couple of schematics without problem but whenever i try to create a pcb layout from one of my circuits rather than the demos it doesn t work i m wondering if maybe a file isn t where it should be can anyone who has a printed manual comment on whether the registration fee is worth paying chris chris hand lecturer internet mail cph dmu ac uk dept of computing science voice x de montfort university the gateway fax fidonet leicester uk le bh linux free unix for ibm pcs
sci.electronics	re principle of the breathalyzer in nz apparently things like aftershave are also giving positive readings
sci.electronics	re hc blues no can find in article pat fegmania wustl edu pat fegmania patrick niemeyer writes i too had trouble finding hc s when i looked for them a while back i d be interesting in hearing if anyone knows about their availability now the newest jdr microdevices catalog has at least one variant of the hc rainer m malzbender fyzzicks cu boulder
sci.electronics	re oscilloscope triggering in article apr dxcern cern ch jeroen dxcern cern ch jeroen belleman writes in article c vs g ux murdoch acc virginia edu dgj y kelvin seas virginia edu david glen jacobowitz writes is it just me or does anybody else out there not like digital scopes my school has david jacobowitz dgj y virginia edu oh no you re not the only one analogue scopes give you or me at least a fair idea of what s going on in a circuit digital scopes seem to have a habit of inventing a sizable part of it e g even when there are only a few samples per period our hp a displays a continuous waveform complete with non existing overshoots i ve waded through lots of manual pages and menus but i haven t found yet how to turn this off it doesn t show which points have actually been measured as opposed to those which have been interpolated either perhaps you re using the wrong brand sorry all hp fans but i have a hard time being convinced that their scopes match the rest of their excellent gear one of the principal functions i look for when considering a dso is whether you can turn interpolation off the other important feature is to disable repetitive waveform acquisition i e being able to lock the instrument into real time capture mode secondly i don t like menus i want to see all common functions with their own button you ll have guessed i love analogue tek scopes i d choose a knob with printed legend over an on screen display with up down buttons right away the single knob of most digital instruments never seems to be connected to the right function at the right moment i agree with you here the only consolation is that manufacturers are beginning to pay attention to ergonomics when designing the menus however to be fair it seems that first time scope users our students seem to adjust to menus easier than navigating around the twenty or more knobs required of a real scope last but not least you never know if the waveform displayed is old or recent noisy or just incoherently modulated heck you don t even know if it really looks the way it s displayed digital scopes only show you a tiny fraction of what s going on most of the time the re busy computing things this is one area that newer dsos are addressing i recently evaluated the latest box from tek their tds which seems to be a worthy alternative to a standard mhz analogue cro this instrument has a mhz ms s spec meaning that it is always in real time capture mode the pricing also matches equivalent analogue scopes in the range the downer is that the instrument uses menus again but at least they appear to be logically laid out there are only three situations for which i would prefer a digital scope looking at what happened before the trigger looking at rare events and acquiring the data to have my computer play with it let s hope scope manufacturers are listening best regards jeroen belleman jeroen dxcern cern ch one more thing about the new simpler front panels these instruments tend to use digital rotary encoders as knobs now this is a vast improvement over the old oak switch the single most common cause of failure in our scopes other than students blowing up inputs is mechanical wear on these switches i look at the new panels as a great step toward increasing the longevity of the instruments johnh electronics department school of mpce macquarie university sydney australia email johnh mpce mq edu au ph fax
sci.electronics	compressor problem i have a stereo compressor limiter by audio logic model mt the gates work but the compressor seems to be gone on one channel and very weak on the other i ll probably need an ocsilloscope to trace it down no pun intended but if any one with experience with this type of equipment could point me in a certain direction as to where the circuit is most likely to fail i d sure appreciate it robert c stephens rob dexter psych umn edu human factors research lab university of minnesota
sci.electronics	pioneer laser player i m trying to figure out how to operate a pioneer laserdisc ld that i bought at a surplus store it is reputedly from some kind of computerised viewing and or ordering system there is what may be an hpib connector on the back when i power it up the front panel power light comes on but no activity and the door doesn t open anyone have any experience with this unit or any ideas on how to obtain documentation
sci.electronics	re help with ultra long timing in article apr kuhub cc ukans edu wellison kuhub cc ukans edu writes i have a project that was drooped in my lap that is somewhat a pain to design what i am looking for is a stable ultra long solid state timer what they want to do is to place this thing on the antartic ice shelf and measure the amount of snow fall over a period of six weeks every two weeks they want to trip a selonoid to discharge different colored pellets by gas pressure out across the snow then by digging down into the snow the snow fall amount can be measured as they come to the different color pellets the problem is trying to build a timer that would stand the cold degrees and a power source that wouldn t drain i have looked at the xr timers and the standard ne dual timers but thier temp specs won t go that low also two weeks equates to seconds per firing which means one big timing cap i have found farad yes farad caps that have a working voltage of volts and are small in size but again the time of discharge at or lower degrees isn t linear i was thinking of using several timers chained together to fire the selonid at the end of the timing period but that blasted cold and the drain on a battery over six weeks is the pain one possibility would be to use solar panels but this is during the six month twilight anyone have any good ideas thanks in advance wes firstly i would never consider trying to make a one shot timer your f cap will have been designed as a ram battery substitute rather than for use in applications where you wish to drain the cap with a constant current their performance in some respects is more akin to batteries than to a normal cap the other point is that big electro s are usually rated with tolerances so calculating exactly what capacitance you have particularly when considering the cold you should be looking at designing a micropower oscillator and divider chain that rolls over from zero to maximum count or vice versa once every seconds if you were to use something like a hz clock you would need a divider chain of to give an error of less than one percent in the firing times over the six week period of course you could trim the hz oscillator to give you exact time but the likelyhood of the oscillator remaining exactly constant at is low anyway i would suspect that there would be far more battrey drain in firing the solenoid than there would be in the timer circuit caveat i m not experienced in low temperature electronics so i can t guarantee that this or any other approach is the best for inhospitable conditions johnh electronics department school of mpce macquarie university sydney australia email johnh mpce mq edu au ph fax
sci.electronics	re protection of serial rs lines martin john gregory mgregory flash pax tpa com au wrote i ve started to look at some devices doing serial data transmission over fairly decent distances in fairly noisy environments and have seen a variety of schemes for protecting the rs transceivers and the rest of the circuit from transients on the serial lines i m left wondering what is the best way of doing this how necessary is it stuff deleted what is the wisdom on this out there ta martin from what i know protection is necessary esp if you plan to route the cables into an unknown environment out of your control things like accidental shorts between the signal lines and power cables or even lightning strikes are very likely and i don t think you like to see the sight of your computer going up in smoke even ethernet cards are protected i ve looked at the one in my pc and the connector is protected by a gas discharge tube but if you plan to use the serial cables for internal routings i e in controlled environments it should be reasonably safe not to have them suggestion look in the rs data book they have several rs transceivers that have overvoltage protection among them include the lt lt and max and max the maxims are suppose to be electrically isolated ones but still need opto isolators to work don t ask me why i ve never used them before another alternative is an rs surge protector two are listed in the rs catalogue if you need additional info i e stock nos just e mail me soh kam yung engp nusunix nus sg
sci.electronics	re protection of serial rs lines laird stable ecn purdue edu kyler laird writes there is at least one optically isolated rs transceiver chip i don t remember where i saw it rs components they exist in australia and the uk don t know about the us have little chips called isolated max and they give you isolated rs from a single v supply external components are caps optoisolators a diode and an isloting transformer they go up to k baud john west for the humour impaired insert a after every third word
sci.electronics	need sources for hv capacitors recently my video monitor went dead no picture some low distorted sound i didn t hear the tell tale cracking that indicated hv at work nor are the filaments at the far end of the tube glowing orange just nothing on examining the power board i noticed the largest capacitor with a very bad bulge at the top naturally i want to replace it but i can t find any sources the electrolytic capacitor is mf at wv it has radial leads and is roughly inches long wide the dimensions are important since the whole board fits in a metal cage leaving little room living in the los angeles area i ve been to numerous stores dow radio all electronics itc elect sandy s yale elect with empty hands can anyone suggest sources for high voltage capacitors mail order is fine although i d rather check out a store to compare the can i m going to try a video electronics store hopefully they ll have hv caps by the way the monitor is a atari sc goldstar circuitry masushita tube anyone else had problems thanks in advance rich k email rkim opus calstatela edu
sci.electronics	re help with ultra long timing in article c wi g a athena cs uga edu mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington writes don t use big capacitors they are unreliable for timing due to leakage instead use a quartz crystal and divide its frequency by times or something like that mhz divided by cycle per weeks approximately i wouldn t expect any components other than batteries or electrolytic capacitors to fail at c or f for that matter either the battery is going to be your big problem also of course your circuit shouldn t depend on exact values of resistors which a crystal controlled timer won t wouldn t a crystal be affected by cold my gut feeling is that as a mechanically resonating device extreme cold is likely to affect the compliance terminology of the quartz and hence its resonant frequency michael a covington internet mcovingt ai uga edu artificial intelligence programs phone the university of georgia fax athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi johnh electronics department school of mpce macquarie university sydney australia email johnh mpce mq edu au ph fax
sci.electronics	re hc blues no can find in article pat fegmania wustl edu pat fegmania patrick niemeyer writes ree zach fit edu keith ledig writes was told by other people that it just takes a long time i heard rumors that the hc is very hard to get these days and is being replaced by the series the sales person is trying to push the can someone please tell me what is going on with these microcontrollers i can t seem to get a straight answer i too had trouble finding hc s when i looked for them a while back i d be interesting in hearing if anyone knows about their availability now thanks pat the hc is an eprom version of the hc raw hc parts have factory set rom images and as such are useless to the hobbyist hc parts have eeprom allowing for electrical erasure and reprogramming some motorola parts such as the hc k have eprom making them user programmable but come with options of either windowed or sealed the more expensive windowed packages allow multiple use the plastic dip varieties are one time programmable since there is no way of exposing the eprom array to light johnh electronics department school of mpce macquarie university sydney australia email johnh mpce mq edu au ph fax
sci.electronics	v to v and v at a the subject line says it all i m working on a project that will use a car battery i need to pull off v and possibly v at a i have several ideas but i d prefer to benefit from all you brilliant people conquest is easy control is not tom glinos u of toronto statistics star trek tos tg utstat toronto edu usl forgot this simple history lesson
sci.electronics	re help with ultra long timing sounds like a job for a universal time reciever i don t know the logisitics of the situation but if you could just place a reciever in snow and place the oscillator in a nice lab somewhere else your problems should be solved just a suggestion wayne martin
sci.electronics	re hc problem mdanjou gel ulaval ca martin d anjou writes b votre host est mal configure bonjour sylvain j ai travaille avec le hc il y a ans et je ne me souviens pas de toutes les possibilites mais je vais quand meme essayer de t aider je ne crois pas que downloader une programme directement dans le eeprom soit une bonne idee le eeprom a une duree de vie limitee a cycles il me semble le communication break down vient peut etre du fait que le eeprom est long a programmer ms par bytes mais c est a verifier et que les delais de transfer de programme s vers la memoire sont excedes normalement les transferts en ram du code s est plus rapide car le ram est plus rapide que le eeprom en ecriture c est tout ce que ma memoire me permet de me souvenir bonne chance oh yeah easy for him to say ken thompson n itl ncr corp peripheral products division disk array development n rock road wichita ks ken thompson wichitaks ncr com
sci.electronics	re wire wrap questions again in article pascal apr ap apd cpg sony co jp pascal apd cpg sony co jp pascal goguey writes in article blue cis pitt edu macfitz pitt edu mark d fitzsimmos writes after a considerable amount of research review of discussions on this group and mainly fruitless time on breadboards i have decided that the path of least resistance for prototyping my not necessarily someone else s electronic designs is wire wrapping i have no idea about what you want to do but be careful wire wrapping increases a lot the wiring capacitance that shouldn t be a problem for slow applications i e a few mhz but as for quicker ones around mhz i doubt that it can work fortunately wire wrapping is a better wiring technique than most at high frequencies cray computers up to the x mp at least all had wirewrapped backplanes wirewrap gets into trouble at much higher frequencies than any ttl can handle the increase of wiring capacitance is not really relevant you have to use transmission line techniques and the capacitance is no problem where can i get a decent wrapping tool i d like to spend less than for an ac powered unit including bit and sleeve hand powered is the best there are good ac powered ones but rather expensive a low cost one doesn t work very well hand powered is a terrible choice imho unless you are a field maintenance person who will do maybe a dozen connections at a time your hands will cramp battery powered wire wrap guns are available in the range and so are the little twiddle stick manual types for a modest project of a couple hundred connections i d prefer to borrow a professional ac unit or a pneumatic one john whitmore
sci.electronics	re pioneer laser player in article apr ee rochester edu neale ee rochester edu reg neale writes i m trying to figure out how to operate a pioneer laserdisc ld that i bought at a surplus store it is reputedly from some kind of computerised viewing and or ordering system there is what may be an hpib connector on the back when i power it up the front panel power light comes on but no activity and the door doesn t open anyone have any experience with this unit or any ideas on how to obtain documentation what you have is one of the ld players from a video game dragon s lair space ace etc call pioneer technicial support at least that s the number i called them at and ask for the ld v interface guide it shows how the parallel interface should be wired and the codes for the commands play pause reject etc the guide is mainly for hooking the player to a computer but with a little work you could build a wired controller jim keais jkeais ucssun sdsu edu
sci.electronics	re help with ultra long timing in article pqu pmu sunb ocs mq edu au johnh macadam mpce mq edu au john haddy writes in article c wi g a athena cs uga edu mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington writes don t use big capacitors they are unreliable for timing due to leakage true especially for electrolytic capacitors at high temperature instead use a quartz crystal and divide its frequency by times or something like that wouldn t a crystal be affected by cold my gut feeling is that as a mechanically resonating device extreme cold is likely to affect the compliance terminology of the quartz and hence its resonant frequency low power quartz oscillators are usually khz and these have significant temperature drifts which one doesn t often notice while wearing the watch on one s wrist low temperature sensitivity is available in other crystal types which unfortunately are larger and higher frequency mhz or so and take more battery power programmable timers might be less accurate but they are more power stingy than suitable crystal oscillators john whitmore
sci.electronics	level brightness xmas light set for easter yes i know it s nowhere near christmas time but i m gonna loose net access in a few days maybe a week or if i m lucky and wanted to post this for interested people to save till xmas note bell labs is a good place if you have a phd and a good boss i have neither subject xmas light set with levels of brightness another version of a variable brightness xmas light set this set starts with a blinker bulb string diagram orginal way set v b b rtn modified set for level brightness string v k w string b v rtn note no mods to wiring to the right of this point only one blinker is used note that the blinker would not have as much current thru it as the string bulbs because of the second string of bulbs in parallel with it that s why the use of the k w resistor here to add extra current thru the blinker to make up for the current shunted thru the second string while the blinker is glowing and the second string is not glowing when the blinker goes open this resistor has only a slight effect on the brightness of the strings s slightly dimmer s slightly brighter or use a w v bulb in place of the k resistor if you can get one caution do not replace with a standard c bulb as these draw too much current and burn out the blinker c approx w what you ll see when it s working powerup string will light at full brightness and b will be lit bypassing most of the current from the second string making them not light b will open placing both strings in series making the string that was out to glow at a low brightness and the other string that was on before to glow at reduced brightness be sure to wire and insulate the splices resistor leads and cut wires in a safe manner
sci.electronics	ftp sites anyone hello netters does anyone out there know any ftp sites for projects plans etc of an electrical nature jason jason blakey blakey ug cs dal ca
sci.electronics	intel rmx o s documentation wanted we ve just been donated a large machine for use in our robotics lab this device is complete with a based controller running the intel rmx operating system unfortunately we don t have any documentation on rmx can anybody out there in netland help please reply via email i don t regularly catch up with the news thanks david bull davidb mpce mq edu au
sci.electronics	re what is zero db in article sehari vincent iastate edu sehari iastate edu babak sehari writes in c true aa ms uky edu msunde mik uky edu mark underwood writes i am somewhat familiar with the db measurements as they apply to electrical circuits i e it is the gain of for example an amplifier measured on a logarithmic scale however this requires that you have a reference value i e the ouput is db e g with respect to the input signal stuff deleted what you actually talking about here is dbm and not db however the terms are used loosely by most people dbm is power with respact to mw whereas db is a ratio now like these two english statement i am doing well i am doing good similarly people usually use db for dbm another common mistake is spelling db instead of db as you did in your article see the b is for bell company the mother of at t and should be capitalized with highest regards babak sehari good gravy decibels are all ratios the question that remains in any ratio is the reference unit used sometimes this will be a reference power such as milliwatt given a certain circuit impedance which should also be included in the fine print or known like ohms in an rf circuit of that impedance leading to an accepted notation of dbm maybe it might be dbv disregarding the impedance of the circuit and power developed using volt as reference amplitude rather than reference power or it might have an arbitrary or omitted reference that is not included in the notation leading to just plain db so look at it this way db has an implied reference while notation such as dbm has an explicit reference for power db log p measured p reference for amplitude db log a measured a reference b is for bel which is a standard term for a log ratio to the base named after alexander graham bell a deci bel is of a bel it has nothing to do with the bell telephone company except for the common founder s name the small d large b is per si notation convention i don t know anyone that s been crucified for messing it up common references for audio are dbm milliwatt across ohms dbv volt vu a zero on the vu meter dbm pro gear line level vu dbv consumer gear line level often times a power amp vu meter will be aligned using the rated power of the amp as the db point it is all done to whatever reference is reasonable for the application or moment note that in a circuit with a given and maybe unknown linear impedance if the amplitude goes up so many decibels the power will also increase the same amount this proof can be done with the above two identities and ohm s law dave medin phone w ssd networking h intergraph corp m s gd internet dtmedin catbyte b ingr com huntsville al uucp uunet ingr b catbyte dtmedin everywhere you look at least around my office the opinions expressed here are mine or those of my machine
sci.electronics	re flyback squeal in video monitors in article mar ssc com markz ssc com mark zenier writes zack lau zlau arrl org wrote in sci electronics xhan uceng uc edu xiaoping han writes in article mar hubcap clemson edu michaet hubcap clemson edu michael d townsend writes brendan macadam mpce mq edu au brendan jones writes my mom s magnavox does this as well i put chewing gum all around the horizontal sync transformer so it wouldn t resonate the board as much don t flame it worked i realize that there is a more suitable substance available for this purpose but i don t remember what and where it is adhesive silicon from hardware store if it smells like vinegar it may damage metal surfaces by promoting corrosion anybody tried superglue cyanoacrylate this should sneak into the cracks better and is stiffer than silicone i ve found this works pretty well on noisy laminated power transformer cores and windings the hz kind likewise if anybody has tried this on a flyback i d like to hear about it i would suspect it would not be as effective as it was on power transformers as the material wouldn t damp as well something i suspect would be critical at the frequencies involved in other words you want absorption rather than prevention which would be real difficult at khz dave medin phone w ssd networking h intergraph corp m s gd internet dtmedin catbyte b ingr com huntsville al uucp uunet ingr b catbyte dtmedin everywhere you look at least around my office the opinions expressed here are mine or those of my machine
sci.electronics	re wanted a to d hardware for a pc in ncr mpd ftcollinsco ncr com brad wright writes if you know much about pc s ibm comp you might try the joystick port though i haven t tried this myself i ve been told that the port has built in a d converters this would allow the joystick to be a couple of pots if you could find the specs this might just work for you i guess k connecting pins x y x and y or get an bit da converter merely a couple of transistors and resistors and an opamp to compare its output to the voltage you want to measure connect them to a spared printer port if you have one and do the rest by software stepwise refinement the port addresses for your printer ports are probably h lpt h lpt this should work well enough for your purposes hope this helps gmd schloss birlinghoven postfach d st augustin frg e mail peter hendricks gmd de ph zi gmd dbp de ph gmd de
sci.electronics	re wanted a to d hardware for a pc in ncr mpd ftcollinsco ncr com brad wright writes if you know much about pc s ibm comp you might try the joystick port though i haven t tried this myself i ve been told that the port has built in a d converters this would allow the joystick to be a couple of pots if you could find the specs this might just work for you i believe that the a d converters found on a joystick port are really timers that tick off how long it takes an r c circuit the r being your paddle to charge up to something like vcc for games this works pretty well but you certainly wouldn t want to try to take lab measurements off something as non linear as that hmm i suppose you could linearize it in software but the real problem is that the precision of your measurement is no longer constant higher voltages would be more precise on the other hand i could be wrong and perhaps the game card designers splurged for the extra to make a cheap constant current source out of an op amp but i wouldn t expect that joel kolstad
sci.electronics	calculating a transformer help needed i want to convert a volt sinewave with frequency between khz and khz to a volt sinewave with the same frequency by means of a transformer the secondary current will be a ma what kind of transformer should i use ferrite can i buy one if so i need a partnumber and supplier if i cannot buy one how do i go about winding one myself what core do i use how big must it be in order not to saturate what thickness copper wire how many turns etc i know little about analog electronics so i hope some kind soul here will help me out pointers to relevant databooks will also be highly appreciated thanks mark de rooi rooi tpd tno nl
sci.electronics	re hv diodes in article hpfcso fc hp com myers hpfcso fc hp com bob myers writes nope the dag is on the outside of the tube and is grounded the inside aluminization is the second anode and is connected to the anode suction cup this with the glass of the tube in between is a capacitor and is used as the power supply bypass filter for the hv supply some smaller scope tubes don t have an aquadag coating on the outside if they are in mu metal shields you still have a capacitor actually and i think i said this in the original but perhaps wasn t clear enough there is usually both an internal and an external dag of the two the internal dag is the more important the aluminization of the back of the phosphor is in most cases not adequate to guarantee connection to the anode button and in the case where the gun assembly includes an accelerating electrode at anode potential most definitely does not provide that connection bob is indeed correct here in more than one way a look in the old rca picture tube manual backs this up as does sams reference data handbook the internal coating around the perimeter of the crt not the aluminum or tin crt face coating is referred to as a dag as well as the outer coating thankfully i didn t need to go to a f library to find it either one sparkling water for mr vanderbyl no caffeine in that is there dave medin phone w ssd networking h intergraph corp m s gd internet dtmedin catbyte b ingr com huntsville al uucp uunet ingr b catbyte dtmedin everywhere you look at least around my office the opinions expressed here are mine or those of my machine
sci.electronics	re sid chip to ibm system bus mr mc howell g h hippo ru ac za wrote please don t ask questions like why don t you buy a soundblaster the answer is simple overpriced considering the sound quality why not try one of the projects to build a dac connected to the parallel port as documented in some files which come with modplay these vary from a dac design to a simple single dac made only of resistors david hembrow eo europe ltd email dhembrow eoe co uk abberley house granhams road great shelford cambridge cb lq england
sci.electronics	heathkit zenith does anyone out there have the toll free catalog request and order line for heathkit zenith please post the number if you ve got it thanks
sci.electronics	re info on nec d multisync monitor myers hpfcso fc hp com bob myers writes i am looking for any info i can get on the nec d monitor i know that it is a multisync but that is about all i plan on buying one second hand in a while depending on its specs does anyone know the min max frequencies whether it is interlaced non interlaced or both video compatability etc i have seen a reference to it being pitch with x resolution and that it supports svga from one source and that it doesn t support svga from another source neither source seemed to have much reliable info so i don t want to take a guess i m at home right now and so am away from my monitor files the following is off the top of my head subject to revision worth what ya pay for it sort of info if you don t hear from anyone who has spec sheet in hand e mail me and i ll look it up if i m remembering correctly the d is a mm pitch multisync that covers at least vga khz horizontal hz vertical to x hz which is going to be about khz horizontal it may go somewhat higher than that on the horizontal but you won t be happy with anything beyond x on a tube you probably won t be too thrilled with the x on this tube but it will sync up and display it i prefer at least a for this resolution since svga is x it ll do that too the horizontal range probably goes lower than but i don t know if it goes all the way down to straight ntsc rate tv which need about khz sweep as far as video compatibility if i m reading the question right it won t take anything but analog rgb inputs in other words it has no way to decode ntsc or y c video inputs you would need some sort of board to to this conversion like the sorts of things that let you display ntsc on a vga display hopefully now i ll see this response of mine and it ll remind me to look this stuff up and confirm it or force me to post a hasty retraction ok i was under the impression that it accepted digital input i still don t know for sure if it accepts both interlaced and non interlaced as i have gotten conflicting info victor inqmind bison mb ca the inquiring mind bbs winnipeg manitoba
sci.electronics	wide band analog time delay hi there i am looking for a wide band analog time delay not phase delay variable from microseconds to milliseconds please reply via email to rrc firga sun ac za
sci.electronics	re a to d hardware for a pc if you can find a copy of assembler language programming the ibm pc by willen and krantz nd ed pub by sams there is a discussion of the game control adapter monostable multivibrators and conversion to other uses as well as an assembler program if you need greater accuracy there is no reason you couldn t modify the approach to suit your needs jim
sci.electronics	re homebuilt pal epld programer in sci electronics timd fenian dell com writes anyone know a reasonable circuit for programming pals i am interested in programming a wide range of eplds but would be happy with something that could handle a v or thereabouts i too would be interested in any information on the subject of programing pals etc better to know what your on about before you start something i always say often saves you a packet as well thanks in advance chris name mr chris smith twang on that ole guitar addrs scst uk ac liv uni liverpool university quest to build more and more hardware dgree computer science what ever the sun may be it is certainly not a ball of flaming gas d h lawrence all views expressed are my own and reflect that of private thought
sci.electronics	re heathkit zenith in article c egz t austin ibm com login austin ibm com writes does anyone out there have the toll free catalog request and order line for heathkit zenith please post the number if you ve got it thanks
sci.electronics	re principle of the breathalyzer william burchill williamb ee ubc ca wrote does anybody out there know how the hand held breathalyzer used by our police works i would like to hear about this and the more general problem of detecting smells by machine thanks william williamb ee ubc ca from what i have read about these little gadgets it works on a electrochemical galvanic principle the sensing unit has a chemical matrix which produces an electrical voltage proportional to the amount of chemical compound it is designed for in this case i believe it is the hydroxyl group i have also heard not tested since common gasoline is also a member of this hydroxyl group it will also cause a failing breathalizer failure next time you get stopped for dui say you just siphoned gas from your neighbors car you know the oklahoma credit card and chances are you won t get a dui ticket jerry long long spk hp com disclaimer opinions are my own and do not reflect those of my employer
sci.electronics	rf data transmission i need a off the shelf method of transmitting small amounts of data up to feet the data is low speed and can be encoded as needed low power on the transmitting end would be a plus an fcc certified product would be prefered if you have any pointers to products or companies i d appreciate hearing from you thanks ken
sci.electronics	re jacob s ladder in article c z x b murdoch acc virginia edu dgj y kelvin seas virginia edu david glen jacobowitz writes i ve been wanting to build a tesla coil for quite awhile now who doesn t right and i thought it would be a good intermidiate step to build a jacob s ladder first well i have been looking for a high voltage transformer that is reasonable inexpensive neon sign transformers cost mucho in the past i ve managed to buy used neon sign transformers from sign shops for about try calling around warren n massey massey travis llnl gov lawrence livermore national laboratory east ave p o box l livermore calif my opinions are mine alone
sci.electronics	re help with ultra long timing in pqu pmu sunb ocs mq edu au johnh macadam mpce mq edu au john haddy writes in article c wi g a athena cs uga edu mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington writes instead use a quartz crystal and divide its frequency by times or something like that wouldn t a crystal be affected by cold my gut feeling is that as a mechanically resonating device extreme cold is likely to affect the compliance terminology of the quartz and hence its resonant frequency yes but in a fairly reproducible way is only a smidgen of the distance to absolute zero and in any case you re going to have to borrow freezer space from a bio lab or someone to test calibrate this darling anyway btw you re probably going to want those big capacitors you found to fire the solenoid high current drain on frozen batteries can be an ugly thing paul
sci.electronics	re what is zero db joseph chiu josephc cco caltech edu wrote sehari iastate edu babak sehari writes similarly people usually use db for dbm another common mistake is spelling db instead of db as you did in your article see the b is for bell company the mother of at t and should be capitalized thus a decibell deci l tenth of bell is a fractional part of the original bell for example southwestern bell is a decibell out of what hat did you pull this one db is a ratio not an rboc and the measure of current amp is actually named after both the amp company and the amphenol company both companies revolutionized electronics by simulatenously realizing that the performance of connectors and sockets were affected by the amount of current running through the wires sorry the unit for current is the ampere which is the name of a french man named ampere who studied electrical current the term amp is just an abbreviation of it the company amp came after the ampere unit was already in use the ohmite company was the first to characterize resistances by numbers thus our use of the ohms i don t know about this one but it doesn t sound right alexander graham bell actually is where bell came from well you got one thing right actually bel refers with highest regards babak sehari joseph chiu josephc cco caltech edu os you gotta get this thing msc caltech pasadena ca os the operating system of tomorrow today greg moffatt bell northern research inc ottawa canada my opinions not bnr s
sci.electronics	re police radar just how does it work in article apr walter bellcore com deaddio ski bellcore com michael deaddio writes question if i am right about the doppler if i spell it different every time maybe one will be right effect how does the radar get an accurate reading when the car containing it is moving it would seem to me for all thats worth that it would need to be calibrated with the speedometer of the car containing it i am fairly sure this isn t the case so whats the deal essentially this is actually how it is done the radar gun is tied into the speedometer of the car no it is independent of the speedometer the gun processes two doppler returns the speed of the car relative to the pavement and the speed of the target taking the difference between the two some guns with a moving mode actually have a split beam with one beam aimed preferentially at the pavement car and driver had a good article on traffic radar but it was back in i used its contents and references to defend myself against a bogus radar measured ticket it detailed moving mode which is easier to defend against because of the increased amount of variables dave medin phone w ssd networking h intergraph corp m s gd internet dtmedin catbyte b ingr com huntsville al uucp uunet ingr b catbyte dtmedin everywhere you look at least around my office the opinions expressed here are mine or those of my machine
sci.electronics	re books info on audio dsp in sci electronics rec audio david s rowell writes i assume these are appropriate newsgroups for this question i am looking for a good book articles anything on audio dsp theory is nice but i m really looking for something very much on the applications side i want to look into it as my new hobby so i need all the direction i can get any comments would be welcome too i m looking to build a dsp for guitar processing hence lots of background information would be really useful if anyone s got any info could they email thanks in advance chris name mr chris smith twang on that ole guitar addrs scst uk ac liv csc uni liverpool university quest to build more and more hardware dgree computer science what ever the sun may be it is certainly not a ball of flaming gas d h lawrence all views expressed are my own and reflect that of private thought
sci.electronics	pc games joystick port subject says it all could someone tell me the pinout for a pc type analogue joystick port joystick a vdc button x axis ground ground y axis button vdc joystick b vdc button x axis ground y axis button vdc slmr soft judges make hardened criminals the ozone hole bbs a private bulletin board service full service nodes usrobotics k bps gigs files skydive new orleans rime network mail hub usenet newsgroups please route all questions or inquiries to postmaster ozonehole com
sci.electronics	re police radar just how does it work in article apr walter bellcore com deaddio ski bellcore com michael deaddio writes the beam is split in two with one beam aimed at the target car sort of and the other at the ground the speeds of each are calulated for the final number actually this is true on the more expensive ones but the cheaper ones just read the speedometer i ve never seen a speedometer reading model are you sure who makes them consider the difficulty of reading the speedo on various makes of cars in use i ve seen single beam moving mode and split beam moving mode dave medin phone w ssd networking h intergraph corp m s gd internet dtmedin catbyte b ingr com huntsville al uucp uunet ingr b catbyte dtmedin everywhere you look at least around my office the opinions expressed here are mine or those of my machine
sci.electronics	re hv diodes in article apr mprgate mpr ca vanderby mprgate mpr ca david vanderbyl writes dtmedin catbyte b ingr com dave medin writes the crt in fact does have an intentional built in capacitor for its function just as ic s have built in transistors etc gee mr myers are we going to let this go without a correction two things read your own posts i was agreeing with bob no correction needed don t quote stuff out of context dave medin phone w ssd networking h intergraph corp m s gd internet dtmedin catbyte b ingr com huntsville al uucp uunet ingr b catbyte dtmedin everywhere you look at least around my office the opinions expressed here are mine or those of my machine
sci.electronics	re what is zero db moffatt bnr ca john thomson writes out of what hat did you pull this one db is a ratio not an rboc sorry the unit for current is the ampere which is the name of a french man named ampere who studied electrical current the term amp is just an abbreviation of it the company amp came after the ampere unit was already in use i don t know about this one but it doesn t sound right well you got one thing right hello john oh nevermind jeff jeffrey s curtis sidewinder uiuc edu resplendent in full regalia they the power of free at uiucvmd revel in their role as self appointed sony phase linear sanyo sennet critics of the establishment jensen polk streetwires proton inxs welcome to wherever you are
sci.electronics	self modifying hardware permit me to quote fragments of praetzel sunee uwaterloo ca s article out of context newsgroups sci electronics comp lsi cad from praetzel sunee uwaterloo ca eric praetzel date feb gmt currently the xnf format is propierty and i know of at least on person at a university who was able to get it after signing a non disclosure agreement the xilinx bit map format is pretty well top secret i would love to know it because then you could make self modifying hardware as it is i had to reverse eng the xilinx tools to dump the bit map to the fpga because it only runs on the computer with the hardware key self modifying hardware could be very interesting computers that could write thier own programs assemblers compilers were an immense breakthrough from calculators that couldn t i eagerly await a programmable gate array which uses a pd format and does not cost your first born to program till then we will keep on reverse engineering whatever we can as it is one company that i worked at has gone under fpgas are what they needed to make their product competitive they could not afford them in the end you could say that they could not afford to not use them but the management discovered that too late eric my condolences i can t even imagine what i could do with self modifing hardware i can imagine self modifying software and even though all my teachers say that s bad even worse than goto check out what the experts used to say about self modifying code he uses orders rather than opcodes on the principles of large scale computing machines by goldstine and von neumann collected in john von neumann collected works vol v reprinted here with absolutely no permission from anyone we plan to have a full size binary digit word hold either contain full size number equivalent to decimal digits but we will use the first binary digit to denote the sign or two binary digit orders it should be added that this technique of automatic substitutions into orders i e the machine s ability to modify its own orders under the control of other ones among its orders is absolutely necessary for a flexible code thus if part of the memory is used as a function table then looking up a value of that function for a value of the variable which is obtained in the course of the computation requires that the machine itself should modify or rather make up the reference to the memory in the order which controls this looking up and the machine can only make this modification after it has already calculated the value of the variable in question on the other hand this ability of the machine to modify its own orders is one of the things which makes coding the non trivial operation which we have to view it as david cary tenor e and comp engineering finger caryd a cs okstate edu s e ave tulsa ok usa sol universe v david cary tenor e and comp engineering finger caryd a cs okstate edu s e ave tulsa ok usa sol universe v
sci.electronics	re what is zero db in article pkveuinnduk gap caltech edu joseph chiu writes the ohmite company was the first to characterize resistances by numbers thus our use of the ohms yeah right and the company was started by george simon ohmite rich
sci.electronics	re help with ultra long timing wellison kuhub cc ukans edu writes i have a project that was drooped in my lap that is somewhat a pain to design what i am looking for is a stable ultra long solid state timer what they want to do is to place this thing on the antartic ice shelf and measure the amount of snow fall over a period of six weeks every two weeks they want to trip a selonoid to discharge different colored pellets by gas pressure out across the snow then by digging down into the snow the snow fall amount can be measured as they come to the different color pellets the problem is trying to build a timer that would stand the cold degrees and a power source that wouldn t drain i have looked at the xr timers and the standard ne dual timers but thier temp specs won t go that low also two weeks equates to seconds per firing which means one big timing cap i have found farad yes farad caps that have a working voltage of volts and are small in size why are you fooling around with analog for this job a single chip micro and a crystal will do the job reliably and easily an only costs about that and a crystal and you re in business embed the whole thing in a foam insulated blanket power it from a solar cell use the excess power to heat the assembly during the day and rely on the insulation to hold the heat during darkness if you don t want to try thermal management contact someone like icl and have them cut you a special low temperature crystal it ll cost at most if you use a single chip micro you re looking at a parts count of maybe a processor a crystal two caps on the crystal a power fet to fire the solenoid a flyback diode and a battery this is fewer parts than you can build an analog timer for and is infinitely more reliable add a power zener diode for heat and a solar cell and the parts count screams up to pd assemblers are available for all the common single chip micros this application is so trivial you could even look up the op codes in the programmer s guide and create the binary with a hex editor john john de armond wd oqc interested in high performance mobility performance engineering magazine tm interested in high tech and computers marietta ga send ur snail mail address to jgd dixie com perform dixie com for a free sample mag need usenet public access in atlanta write me for info on dixie com
sci.electronics	radar detector detectors they detect the oscillator operating in the detector saw a story about their use in canada now don t go putting oscillators in your cars
sci.electronics	voltage multiplier problem hi i ve just built a valve preamp and use a diode capacitor voltage multiplier to step the vac supply voltage up to approx vdv as the load resistance increases the rc constant decreases and hence the output voltage drops i need as high an output voltage as possible about v the circuit consists of seven voltage multiplier stages ie diodes and capacitors each capacitor develops about v across them and i take the output from across seven capacitors v each capacitor is mfd at v if i increase each of the capacitors rating mfd that will increase the rc constant and hence alleviate some of the problem these capacitors are going to be a little expensive as i need of them so what would happen if i connected a mfd at v capacitor in parallel with the output and hence in parallel with the seven mfd capacitors will it as i assume increase the c in circuit and hence increase the rc time constant if it does and my output voltage becomes more stable by doing this then i will have killed two birds with one stone as i am experiencing some hz ripple and hence amp hum and this new capacitor will smooth this out and can anyone recomend a suitable value for an inductor choke to be placed in the output line of the power supply to filter out the hz mains hum lowest resistance possible i ve not got my preamp with me at the moment because it is too much of a distraction i m at university and i ve got to get my dissertation finished in two weeks hence i m mailing not playing with my solderoing iron it ll be cheaper too in the long run especially if new large capacitors don t work as planned email please can t always read the net thanks in advance chris name mr chris smith twang on that ole guitar addrs scst uk ac liv csc uni liverpool university quest to build more and more hardware dgree computer science what ever the sun may be it is certainly not a ball of flaming gas d h lawrence all views expressed are my own and reflect that of private thought
sci.electronics	speaker design software hi i m looking for software to aid a friend of mine with designing speakers does this type of software exist if anyone can point me toward a shareware or freeware product with this description that would be ideal steve van der burg using a friend s account p s excuse the terseness of the message i m having difficulty stringing readable sentences together today for some reason luke koops
sci.electronics	electric power line balls power lines and airplanes don t mix in areas where lines are strung very high or where a lot of crop dusting takes place or where there is danger of airplanes flying into the lines they place these plastic balls on the lines so they are easier to spot
sci.electronics	re electric power line balls in article apr eagle lerc nasa gov fsset bach lerc nasa gov scott townsend writes i got a question from my dad which i really can t answer and i d appreciate some net wisdom his question is about some diameter balls which are attached to electric power lines in his area he s seen up to a half dozen between two poles neither of us have any experience with electric power distribution my only guess was that they may be a capacitive device to equalize the inductance of the grid but why so many between two poles anyone know what they really are is there a related faq for this is there a better group to submit to we d both appreciate some enlightenment the balls are used to reduce the amplitude of oscillations of the wire during periods of high winds i ve seen what looks like paint cans filled with concrete used for the same purpose mike behnke senior tech advisor quid est illuidin aqua fermi nat accel lab equipment suuport batavia il computing div pistrix pistrix behnke fnalf fnal gov my opinions are my own not of the lab so if you don t like them call uwh iner
sci.electronics	re oscilloscope triggering in article c vs g ux murdoch acc virginia edu dgj y kelvin seas virginia edu david glen jacobowitz writes can someone out there explain exactly what the trigger feature found on oscilloscopes does lots og good explanation deleted lots more deleted is it just me or does anybody else out there not like digital scopes my school has some beauutful mhz hp that are digital with all the bells and whistles including soft keys which i think are a loveley touch that is software keys you don t forget that you are dealing with a computer those scopes even with all their neatness still make the ickyest looking waves lotsa features but ugly output and those are the best digitals i have ever seen i ve seen a lot of cheaper digitals and they look terrible i think the hangup with digital scopes is that you have to know so much more about them and how they work on a scope by scope basis and some of the functions are typically presented in my opinion in a counter intuitive fashion hp has made some strides in their series imo automatic setups are fine for simple repetitive waveforms but can give you some crazy results on more complex events where you need to understand how the scope is actually measuring processing the event for example is the scope in equivalent time or in real time sampling mode equivalent time being a mode where samples are built up slowly by adding a delay to the trigger event each sweep what was the scope s actual sampling rate at the time how is the data being massaged after capture but before display etc one common misconception is the speed of the scope is the hp scope you re using really a mhz scope or is it a mhz sample rate scope mhz single shot significance whose front end including s h can support mhz waveforms important for equivalent time sampling the mhz input in this case really only helps you when your waveform is repetitive or on a single sample when you get lucky and hit a transient event during a sample time so there are a lot more variables in understanding how to get useful information from a digital scope i prefer an analog scope for general use and the digital for events where i need storage for later analysis or comparison when the event is within the capability of the scope now for the price of true mhz digital scopes to fall dave medin phone w ssd networking h intergraph corp m s gd internet dtmedin catbyte b ingr com huntsville al uucp uunet ingr b catbyte dtmedin everywhere you look at least around my office the opinions expressed here are mine or those of my machine
sci.electronics	looking for ad pc board this is for a friend of mine please send answers directly to him e mail adress see below highspeed analog digital pc board hello ladies and gentleman i am looking for a highspeed a d pc board with a sampling rate above mhz an a resolution of bit the sampling rate can be arranged by an interleave mode where the time equivalent sampling yields or times higher sampling rate than the a d converter uses in non interleave mode the board must content an a d converter similar to analog devices ad or ad or if available a faster on if you a pc board bit slot isa with this specification or better please send me an email hansch cdc ikph uni hannover dbp de or a telefax to thanks in advance for your help sincerely matthias hansch ikph university of hannover germany andreas heinbokel heinboke tnt uni hannover de all wisdom is print on t shirts
sci.electronics	re what is zero db in article apr bnr ca moffatt bnr ca john thomson writes joseph chiu josephc cco caltech edu wrote thus a decibell deci l tenth of bell is a fractional part of the original bell for example southwestern bell is a decibell out of what hat did you pull this one db is a ratio not an rboc and the measure of current amp is actually named after both the amp company and the amphenol company both companies revolutionized electronics by simulatenously realizing that the performance of connectors and sockets were affected by the amount of current running through the wires sorry the unit for current is the ampere which is the name of a french man named ampere who studied electrical current the term amp is just an abbreviation of it the company amp came after the ampere unit was already in use the ohmite company was the first to characterize resistances by numbers thus our use of the ohms i don t know about this one but it doesn t sound right alexander graham bell actually is where bell came from well you got one thing right actually i think j chiu knows the score and is just being silly however decibel is in fact th of a bel he is right on that one but i don t know if it was accidental or not strictly defined a bel is the ratio of the log of two power levels and a decibel is th of a bel so you have x decibels for every bel hence bel log p p and decibel xlog p p the bel ohm volt farad ampere watt hertz henry etc are all named for pioneers in the field it s a traditional and fine way to honor researchers who discover new knowledge in a new field hertz was one of the most important of the early electronics explorers but had been left out in having a term or unit named after him until recently s prior to that what is now a hertz was a cps all the other units were defined many decades earlier
sci.electronics	re police radar just how does it work i ve seen several references to split or separate beam radars which i claimed didn t exist gotta eat some crow here i wasn t aware of them all i really knew was that it can be done with one beam i believe the rest of what i said is accurate though mmmmmmm crow oops wrong group
sci.electronics	radar detector detectors here s one i hope some knowledgeable readers will make a comment or contribution to in the state of virginia radar detectors are illegal period if you are caught with one it will be confiscated on the spot and will not be returned until after you appear in court and pay your fine the fine for having a radar detector accessible in a motor vehicle even if it is not on is sorry tourist ignorance of the law is no excuse they will get you too it used to be that the only way the law could be enforced was for an officer to actually see the radar detector not any more many law enforcement agencies are now using radar detector detectors right a super sensitive receiver that is capable of picking up rf from the radar detector itself my first reaction was no way but guess again these little buggers really work and the police are writing citations right and left for people using radar detectors one news story quoted an officer as saying that he had found the radar detector in all of the cars he stopped except one and he could never figure out where it was but he knew it was there this tends to make one assume there are few false arrest now before i get flamed please understand that i do drive at or near the speed limit i do not need a radar detector to keep me from getting a speeding ticket but i do like to know when my speed is being clocked or a speed trap is functioning my radar detector now stays locked in my trunk when i am in virginia which is what they want and yes what the law says and i intend to obey the law and is only used in states where it is legal for my fellow hams i am not a microwave person my mind only works in the hf spectrum between and meters microwave enlightment may be necessary so the questions are what do the radar detector detectors actually detect would additional shielding grounding bypassing shield stray rf generated by a radar detector or is the rf actually being emitted by the detector antenna are any brands quieter than others randy t agee ars wb bzx at some point you probably pondered the p o box th floor meaning of life and you came up with a virginia department of education satisfactory answer which has or has not richmond va stood the test of time or you shrugged phone mightily muttered beats the heck out of ragee vdoe vak ed edu me and ordered a cheeseburger
sci.electronics	re why is telephone audio hz telephone systems have the capability of a passband of hz to khz the reason they do not implement this is it is not backward compatable to every telephone system in addition the most effecent mix of electrical effecency and intelegability closly mateches a hz khz passband close but no banana to paraphrase garfield the reason hz is used is that voice channels used to occupy khz bands when multiplexed on a trunk line therefore hz at the bottom and hz at the top of this band were filtered to minimise interference with the next band nowadays digital trunks have made this less relevant but the phone companies still see no reason to improve quality especially for free therefore digital chunk of a trunk segments still have a guaranteed bandwidth of only khz so they can carry the equivalent of one analog line at the clock rate of a standard pcm t or e digital trunk it s all historical here in the uk the bandwidth restriction apparently only apply to local lines ie those used by the average domestic client private lines which are run from the local exchange to the leasing client are usually capable of a higher bandwidth if the exchange is digital don t quote me on that but i think i remember a bt engineer saying something to that effect when i was doing some work shadowing a few years ago byeeeee chris name mr chris smith twang on that ole guitar addrs scst uk ac liv csc uni liverpool university quest to build more and more hardware dgree computer science what ever the sun may be it is certainly not a ball of flaming gas d h lawrence all views expressed are my own and reflect that of private thought
sci.electronics	video io ideas have anyone some idea about how to build a cheap low resolution or high video projector example a lcd and an slide projector
sci.electronics	re books info on audio dsp in article c dsd pb compsci liverpool ac uk scst csc liv ac uk chris smith writes i m looking to build a dsp for guitar processing hence lots of background information would be really useful if anyone s got any info could they email well i m not sure i d use this to process a guitar but there was a audio filter dsp construction article in the sept issue of qst magazine ham radio oriented the dsp is available in kit form for about this particular dsp filter was targetted toward processing audio to remove noise static i built it and it really works well the source code is available too it makes a noisy audio signal much easier to hear note that this is for communication applications and is not high fidelity mike linnig texas instruments inc of all statistics are made phone call n qaw up most of them percent internet mike linnig dseg ti com are wrong
sci.electronics	how to kill ac inductive load spiking is there a fast n dirty way to kill the line spiking that occurs when an inductive load is turned on sometime other than at zero crossing of the ac cycle a capacitor kludged in somehow etc i ve got a microcontroller that is running a bunch of valves and pumps in a big instrument washer and almost everything is being switched with zero crossing solid state relays so that stuff stays quiet ac wise but there s one steam valve that gets turned on by a mechanical relay in the water tank fill thermostat system and it s not under control of my ssrs and it does sometimes generate radiate a spike that resets one of my peripheral chips my software times out and tries again but i d love to just tack in a magic spike killing fix that would avoid having to do some major rewiring redesign a varistor would help but might not be sufficient ideas paul marxhausen university of nebraska lincoln grace happens
sci.electronics	re police radar just how does it work in article apr b news b ingr com dtmedin catbyte b ingr com dave medin writes in article apr walter bellcore com deaddio ski bellcore com michael deaddio writes the beam is split in two with one beam aimed at the target car sort of and the other at the ground the speeds of each are calulated for the final number actually this is true on the more expensive ones but the cheaper ones just read the speedometer i ve never seen a speedometer reading model are you sure who makes them consider the difficulty of reading the speedo on various makes of cars in use i ve seen single beam moving mode and split beam moving mode obviously the police officer reads the speedometer i cannot believe the nit picking in this group there s beams there is not is too etc dave medin s line sig deleted
sci.electronics	re radar detector detectors ragee vdoe vak ed edu randy agee writes it used to be that the only way the law could be enforced was for an officer to actually see the radar detector not any more many law enforcement agencies are now using radar detector detectors right a super sensitive receiver that is capable of picking up rf from the radar detector itself my first reaction was no way but guess again these little buggers really work and the police are writing citations right and left for people using radar detectors one news story quoted an officer as saying that he had found the radar detector in all of the cars he stopped except one and he could never figure out where it was but he knew it was there this tends to make one assume there are few false arrest from what i understand about radar dectectors all they are is a passive device much like the radio in your car they work as an antenna picking up that radar signals that the radar gun sends out therefore there would be no way of detecting a radar detector any more than there would be of detecting whether some one had a radio in their car neal howland nhowland matt ksu ksu edu
sci.electronics	re where do u look in article apr cmkrnl com jeh cmkrnl com writes i might add that collecting last year s data books or even ones two years out of date is usually pretty cheap and has benefits besides you usually don t want to base a design on a brand new chip there may be bugs availability may be limited the data sheets may be missing critical information that will show up in the ap notes in next year s data books kinda like buying version of a major new software package sometimes you get lucky but don t count on it there are two more reasons to save old databooks and then beyond two years obsoleted parts and better application notes and tutorials when a part is dropped from future production planning such as the national mm series white noise generators camera sync generators etc it will disappear from current databooks although it still may be produced for a short time or be available from stock somewhere now if you have some old plans calling for such a device or you have a dead gadget on your workbench and it has such a part in it you ll know the functions so you can troubleshoot and substitute as necessary the old ge thyristor data books contain real good tutorials on scr and triac applications that are not found elsewhere for example in summary read read read that s how you ll know what to design in which parts to use and how to solve the intractable problem that your boss has presented you with it helps to have a prodigous memory for details here here dave medin phone w ssd networking h intergraph corp m s gd internet dtmedin catbyte b ingr com huntsville al uucp uunet ingr b catbyte dtmedin everywhere you look at least around my office the opinions expressed here are mine or those of my machine
sci.electronics	tektronix scope for sale tektronix scope for sale mhz bandwidth portable not one of the xx series boatanchors delayed sweep works fine i don t have the manual they are available from various places no probes shipping email me for more info regards keith keith kanoun wa q kdk radio nl nuwc navy mil
sci.electronics	microstrip help wanted i need information on microstrip circuit design especially filter design for the ghz range can you recommend any good books journals or microstrip circuit design software all help appreciated gerry corley ece department univesity of limerick ireland
sci.electronics	re wanted a to d hardware for a pc in article apr doug cae wisc edu kolstad cae wisc edu joel kolstad writes in ncr mpd ftcollinsco ncr com brad wright writes if you know much about pc s ibm comp you might try the joystick port though i haven t tried this myself i ve been told that the port i believe that the a d converters found on a joystick port are really timers that tick off how long it takes an r c circuit the r being your paddle to charge up to something like vcc for games this works pretty well but you certainly wouldn t want to try to take lab measurements off something as non linear as that the best info i have seen so far is the article joystick metrics measuring physical properties through the pc s joystick port by michael covington in the may issue of pc tech journal it talks about how to read all kinds of things voltage current resistance in basic and even includes code for a simple oscilloscope display it s possible to read the joystick port directly if you don t want to use basic the detailed information for this is in the pc technical reference under options and adapters you have to provide some millisecond resolution timing functions but that s a subject which has appeared many times in articles from dr dobb s circuit cellar ink etc look for the public domain ztimer package on wuarchive good luck dev palmer dpalmer mcnc org mcnc room p o box rtp nc fax
sci.electronics	peltier effect heat pumps i was having a look through a couple of components catalogues when i came across a range of peltier effect heat pumps intended for cooling components for those who have not heard of this effect you put a current through one of these devices and it pumps heat from one side to the other reverse the current and you reverse the effect i think a temperature difference can give you an emf as well anyway it struck me that you could make a nice cool hot box for picnics with one of these a power regulator a thermostat and a couple of heat sinks the biggest device can shift w with an efficiency of which ain t bad although it would flatten my car battery in about half an hour unfortunately the catalogue didn t list anything more than the basic specs as a heat pump i imagine that you would get a back emf as the temperature gradient across the device increases if so presumably its power decreases as the back emf increases until eventually we have a steady state with no current being consumed assuming no leakage if so then the final temperature difference between the two sides could be set by the supply voltage and nothing more although that would be a lousy way to control it what i would like to know is are the above guesses correct what is the open circuit thermal resistance of a typical device i just want to be sure that my coolbox is not going to get warm too fast when i unplug it how does a peltier effect heat pump actually work it looks like magic why don t they use these things in domestic fridges freezers thanks in advance paul paul johnson paj gec mrc co uk tel ext these ideas and others like them can be had gec marconi research is not for each from any reputable idealist responsible for my opinions
sci.electronics	re outdoor fm antennas in article beerb ccmail dayton saic com beerb ccmail dayton saic com bradlee beer writes i m interested in buying or building an omnidirectional antenna for the commercial fm band mhz the commonly sold ones are a folded dipole bent in an s shape and one with a pair of crossed dipoles i don t see either of these designs as exhibiting any gain and they probably aren t truely omnidirectional i m intrigued by the discone antenna does anyone have detailed information on how to design one for the fm band with ohm impedence is one commercially available are there other designs that have gain i already own a element fm yagi it works great but requires frequent rotation for those distant stations brad beer castle gate drive beavercreek oh brad for an antenna gain is synonymous with directionality the only way to get gain out of an antenna is to design in directionality the gain of an antenna is defined as the signal increase for a preferred direction over the signal obtained by an isotropic antenna bob sciamanda edinboro univ of pa
sci.electronics	re help with ultra long timing in article apr kuhub cc ukans edu wellison kuhub cc ukans e du writes i have a project that was drooped in my lap that is somewhat a pain to design what i am looking for is a stable ultra long solid state timer what they want to do is to place this thing on the antartic ice shelf and measure the amount of snow fall over a period of six weeks every two weeks they want to trip a selonoid to discharge different colored pellets by gas pressure out across the snow then by digging down into the snow the snow fall amount can be measured as they come to the different color pellets the problem is trying to build a timer that would stand the cold degrees and a power source that wouldn t drain i have looked at the xr timers and the standard ne dual timers but thier temp specs won t go that low also two weeks equates to seconds per firing which means one big timing cap i have found farad yes farad caps that have a working voltage of volts and are small in size but again the time of discharge at or lower degrees isn t linear i was thinking of using several timers chained together to fire the selonid at the end of the timing period but that blasted cold and the drain on a battery over six weeks is the pain one possibility would be to use solar panels but this is during the six month twilight anyone have any good ideas thanks in advance wes just a suggestion take a motorola mc b set it up to give you a pulse once every sec or ten secs with either a rc or xtal clock input then feed to a mc b as clock input and decode output for sec output might have to add a few and gates or decoder chips to get output and reset pulse back to the to restart cycle trigger a oneshot from the decoded riseing edge the one shot then goes to a mosfet to drive the mechanism to fire the pellet launcher these ckts require uamps of current between volts so a volt gel cell of a few amphours would last the six weeks then take the ckt board battery wrap in or of foam or build a box of out of the stuff with plywood or metal exterior build a small heater out of watt resistors in series to keep the battery and ckts warm nd thought use batteries one for heater one for timer and pellet trigger insolate insolate even though the chips state that the al rated devices are good to c the batteries have a considerable reduction in capacity oh make sure the area inside has minium air leakage hope this helps rw is this to long winded for the net be gentle
sci.electronics	re all electronics press and peel pcb transfer i think there is a huge difference in the materials and process for printer toner pcb s i get first time everytime results from a local hp postscript and hardly ever works from copies of the same artwork the printer results are so good that i have quit even looking for pc board processes if i had to use the copier version i would think i would look elsewhere the moral experiment and find what works toner transfer can give excellent results it like any process gives erratic results with variable inputs r g
sci.electronics	electric power line balls i got a question from my dad which i really can t answer and i d appreciate some net wisdom his question is about some diameter balls which are attached to electric power lines in his area he s seen up to a half dozen between two poles neither of us have any experience with electric power distribution my only guess was that they may be a capacitive device to equalize the inductance of the grid but why so many between two poles anyone know what they really are is there a related faq for this is there a better group to submit to we d both appreciate some enlightenment scott townsend sverdrup technology inc nasa lewis research center group fsset bach lerc nasa gov
sci.electronics	composite video what are hd and vd i ve got an rgb mistubishi monitor and on the back it has bnc connectors labeled like this composite hd vd sync red green blue i ve used it as a straight rgb monsitor but i can t figure out how to use it for composite could someone explain what these markings mean thanks for any help tom tom rodriguez jack cc gatech edu multimedia computing group gvu lab georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia
sci.electronics	re radar detector detectors nhowland matt ksu ksu edu neal patrick howland writes from what i understand about radar dectectors all they are is a passive device much like the radio in your car they work as an antenna picking up that radar signals that the radar gun sends out therefore there would be no way of detecting a radar detector any more than there would be of detecting whether some one had a radio in their car unfortunately you re wrong on both counts the most common method of implementing a tunable receiver is to have a local oscillator the local oscillator s frequency can be radiated out of the receiver via the antenna unless the circuit is designed and constructed with great care for a reference on detecting radios get the paperback book spy catcher the author discovered how to detect radio receivers from their local oscillator emissions back in the s while he worked for british intelligence greg greg andrews gerg netcom com fortune cookie radioactive cats have half lives
sci.electronics	re peltier effect heat pumps in article snap paj uk co gec mrc paul johnson writes i was having a look through a couple of components catalogues when i came across a range of peltier effect heat pumps intended for cooling components for those who have not heard of this effect you put a current through one of these devices and it pumps heat from one side to the other reverse the current and you reverse the effect i think a temperature difference can give you an emf as well anyway it struck me that you could make a nice cool hot box for picnics with one of these a power regulator a thermostat and a couple of heat sinks the biggest device can shift w with an efficiency of which ain t bad although it would flatten my car battery in about half an hour so called cool hot boxes have been advetised for several years i recall damark advertising them in a recent catalog problem with the units is they do a sh y job of keeping food cold warm the peliter devices used just don t seem to have enough punch to keep up if you want something hot you need to heat it up before you put it in the box and end up hours later with food thats only moderately warm same goes for cold items unfortunately the catalogue didn t list anything more than the basic specs as a heat pump i imagine that you would get a back emf as the temperature gradient across the device increases if so presumably its power decreases as the back emf increases until eventually we have a steady state with no current being consumed assuming no leakage if so then the final temperature difference between the two sides could be set by the supply voltage and nothing more although that would be a lousy way to control it what i would like to know is are the above guesses correct what is the open circuit thermal resistance of a typical device i just want to be sure that my coolbox is not going to get warm too fast when i unplug it you de probably be better off getting a good coleman tm cooler and stocking up on blue ice blocks how does a peltier effect heat pump actually work it looks like magic why don t they use these things in domestic fridges freezers same as above not enough punch in them to keep get things cold hot thanks in advance paul paul johnson paj gec mrc co uk tel ext these ideas and others like them can be had gec marconi research is not for each from any reputable idealist responsible for my opinions mike behnke senior tech advisor quid est illuidin aqua fermi nat accel lab equipment suuport batavia il computing div pistrix pistrix behnke fnalf fnal gov my opinions are my own not of the lab so if you don t like them call uwh iner
sci.electronics	dimming incand lamps what s the latest and greatest way to dim incandescent lamps march circuit cellar has part one of an article about dimming vac lamps but it seems to lead into phase control as the best method for controlling brightness i ve always hated phase control for the rfi buzzing filaments and non linear adjustment range i had heard that you can modulate the ac line on a cycle by cycle basis to get better results to cut the lamp s power to you would givemsay cycles of ac then nothing for another cycles i wonder if anyone has tried this or knows what the pro stuff is using any advice is appreciated ken email sidhu bode ee ualberta ca
sci.electronics	low cost oscilloscopes i am looking at buying a low cost scope for general purpose use any recommendations is this info in a faq somewhere any pointers appreciated thanks gerard gerard talatinian network systems gtalatin ucs indiana edu university computing services fax indiana university voice
sci.electronics	seeking thermocouple amplifier circuit i would like to be able to amplify a voltage signal which is output from a thermocouple preferably by a factor of or so that the resulting voltage can be fed more easily into a personal computer based adc data acquisition card might anyone be able to point me to references to such circuits i have seen simple amplifier circuits before but i am not sure how well they work in practice in this case i d like something which will amplify sufficiently nicely to be used for thermocouples say a few degrees accuracy or better any pointers would be greatly appreciated
sci.electronics	re jacob s ladder hi all i ve been following this thread about jacob s ladder for a few weeks and i happened to come across one of the best project books that i ve seen in a while the book gadgeteer s goldmine by gordon mccomb offers over excellent low cost projects including jacob s ladder tesla coils plasma spheres a van de graaff generator robots an ir scope and several laser projects the instructions come with complete part lists warnings and diagrams for those of you who are interested in building any of the above listed projects you should seriously consider getting this book the paperback version is only too for those who want more information title gadgeteer s goldmine space age projects auth gordon mccomb pub tab books cw isbn x paperback price paperback scott scott a bailey include std disclaimer h ecl operator computer engineering i m just a knight who chases the moon university of rhode island haven t caught it yet but i haven t let that bailey vader egr uri edu keep me from still trying each day and night bailey ecl uri edu
sci.electronics	re what is zero db in article apr sei cmu edu rsd sei cmu edu richard s d ippolito writes in article pkveuinnduk gap caltech edu joseph chiu writes the ohmite company was the first to characterize resistances by numbers thus our use of the ohms yeah right and the company was started by george simon ohmite that s completely inaccurate the ohm was an original standard made equal to a the resistance of a standardized electric stove heating element that s where the song ohm on the range came from of course scott
sci.electronics	re police radar just how does it work the father of a friend of mine is a police officer in west virginia not only is his word as a skilled observer good in court but his skill as an observer has been tested to be more accurate than the radar gun in some cases no foolin he can guess a car s speed to within mph just by watching it blow by whether he s standing still or moving too yes how was this testing done and how many times calibrated speedometer it s not the some cases that worry me it s the other cases eg suboptimal viewing conditions even the best subjective viewer can only partial compensate for certain distortions and optical illusions
sci.electronics	re electric power line balls fsset bach lerc nasa gov scott townsend writes i got a question from my dad which i really can t answer and i d appreciate some net wisdom his question is about some diameter balls which are attached to electric power lines in his area he s seen up to a half dozen between two poles neither of us have any experience with electric power distribution my only guess was that they may be a capacitive device to equalize the inductance of the grid but why so many between two poles anyone know what they really are is there a related faq for this is there a better group to submit to we d both appreciate some enlightenment i think those are to make the lines more visible to airplanes and helicopters cheaper than blinking red lights course i could be wrong kris
sci.electronics	need manual for hp scope i have a hp scope that i think has a problem in the hv section symptom started turning on and off on its own making intermittant bright flashes on the crt and then finally passed away if you have a manual or any suggestions please send me mail will gladly pay reproduction shipping costs plus a little for your efforts for the manual thanks in advance jeff jeff depolo wn a twisted pair h w depolo eniac seas upenn edu rf mhz mhz ghz university of pennsylvania
sci.electronics	re what is zero db the ohmite company was the first to characterize resistances by numbers thus our use of the ohms i don t know about this one but it doesn t sound right damn right it doesn t ohm s come from the greek letter omega which is used for resistance impedance of course the original poster may have been being facetious let s hope so mark neidengard mneideng cosmos acs calpoly edu
sci.electronics	re few video questions in article hpfcso fc hp com myers hpfcso fc hp com bob myers writes situation sometimes called block sync you can generate such a combined or composite sync in two simple ways or the h and v syncs together which gives you the non serrated block sync or exor them which makes serrations try it actually the exor doesn t really do kosher serrated sync since it puts the rising and falling for that matter edge of the h sync pulse off by a pulse width but that usually makes no difference sometimes it depends on your monitor and your timing if you don t have enough vertical front porch and you use xor composite sync you can get even odd tearing at the top of the screen which is very sensitive to the hhold control it looks like what you would expect if you scanned the even fields say onto a sheet of mylar and had pinched the upper left corner with your fingers and started to tear it off the tube with proper composite sync equalizing pulses the interlace is rock solid ii cccccc jim cathey ii sssscc isc bunker ramo ii cc taf c spokane wa iissss cc uucp uunet isc br jimc jimc isc br isc br com ii cccccc one design to rule them all one design to find them one design to bring them all and in the darkness bind them in the land of mediocrity where the pc s lie
sci.electronics	videotext teletext descrambler hi i am looking for a pc card which does european videotext teletext descrambling pal does anyone in the us sell such a card i once saw an article about a card with the same functionallity in a european elektor magazine but i wasn t able to track it down thanx in advance dan
sci.electronics	re electric power line balls in article apr eagle lerc nasa gov fsset bach lerc nasa gov scott townsend wrote i got a question from my dad which i really can t answer and i d appreciate some net wisdom his question is about some diameter balls which are attached to electric power lines in his area he s seen up to a half dozen between two poles neither of us have any experience with electric power distribution my only guess was that they may be a capacitive device to equalize the inductance of the grid but why so many between two poles i ll bet there s a runway nearby jeff babb babb sciences sdsu edu babb ucssun sdsu edu programmer sdsu larc
sci.electronics	re conductive plastic what happened if you re thinking of reactive polymers they re making esd safe contau iners out of it as far as being conductive goes anything with a resistance less than to the fouth rth power ohms per cubic measure is classed as conductive per mil std for esd protection my us bob
sci.electronics	attn h wheaton ucal davis i tried to e mail you but the message bounced motorola has a university support program through which i ve been told folks at schools can get sample quantities of parts if you d like to try this route e mail me for the address phone i don t wish to post it for all the world to see dick young motorola inc who doesn t have a thing to do with my opinions they re my own fault
sci.electronics	re radar detector detectors in article pslckinnmn matt ksu ksu edu nhowland matt ksu ksu edu neal patrick howland writes from what i understand about radar dectectors all they are is a passive device much like the radio in your car they work as an antenna picking up that radar signals that the radar gun sends out therefore there would be no way of detecting a radar detector any more than there would be of detecting whether some one had a radio in their car from my rather rusty knowledge of radio most radio receivers use a superhet circuit so that the incoming signal is mixed with a local oscillator giving a fixed intermediate frequency if that is more easily amplified the detector detectors work by picking up if re radiated from your radar detector in britain where one has used to pay for a tv licence there are were tv detector vans prowling the streets looking for people who hadn t paid their licence fee they had a couple of long solenoid antennae on the roof and i believe could triangulate an operating tv from the if i wonder how much of the if is radiated back from the detector antenna and how much from the rest of the module it might be worth putting the detector in a proper rf shielded enclosure andrew daviel vancouver canada advax triumf ca finger advax reg triumf ca for pgp key
sci.electronics	re rumors in article apr cs unca edu kepley photon phys unca edu brad kepley writes i just heard an unbelievable rumor that motorola has decided to drop their integrated circuit manufacture business apparently a digikey rep called one of our production coordinators for out information so that we could make plans to deal with this that moto was getting out anybody else get a call about this too much for me it s about like intel announcing they were getting out of the ic business this rumor didn t happen to appear on april st if this digikey rep was serious i think i will buy my parts elsewhere if that is the way they do business you cannot trust them mark
sci.electronics	re electric power line balls do you know if there is an airport nearby they may just be markers to tell pilots of small planes that there are power lines nearby joe
sci.electronics	home made ir remote extender here s a question for all you electrical engineers out there i bought an infrared detector module at radio shack for it is a little gizmo that senses infrared remotes and produces an output signal then i hooked the output through a transistor to an infrared led the circuit works like a minature remote control extender in my car all remote commands are relayed to the cd player hidden in the glove compartment it works fine with my denon cd player but when i tried to build the same circuit for a friend s vcr it didn t work the circuit appears to work for other remotes you can see infrared with a sony ccd camcorder but coincidentally it only seems to work for my cd player any advice would be appreciated brian ubsiler msuvx memst edu
sci.electronics	holes practical questions was philosophical question in article sun scri fsu edu jac ds scri fsu edu jim carr writes i agree i come at this from nuclear physics where one often discusses particle hole excitations and certain reactions have the effect of applying an annihilation operator and creating a hole and it is a subtle question the longer one works with them the more real they become there are also quasi particles which raise the same sort of question about how real the entity is the phenomenon is most certainly a real one ok i ve asked this before and with a new thread on these lines i ask this again if a large hole current is run thru a resistor will there be i r cooling instead of heating can anyone design an amplifier that preferentially amplifies hole currents over normal electron currents what semiconductor materials have the highest ratio of hole mobility to electron mobility please quote actual test samples rather than estimates based on theory also don t be limited to semiconductors consider also insulators resistors dielectrics piezo electrics conductors magnets metal ceramic magnetostrictives etc notes to summarize this thread has so far stated that the only area where holes are not detectable is the vacuum that is hole particles only exist in the presence of matter previous threads have stated that holes only exist in certain semi conductors the question that naturally arises is if the hole currents inside a semi conductor vanish at the point where the semiconductor is joined to a conductor say copper i don t want a theoretical discussion here about whether holes could exist inside metal conductors rather i ask for an experimental discussion on how to amplify and detect such currents if they exist also note that i have cross posted this to sci electronics since this is now becoming an electronic discussion thanx eric et a force of nature
sci.electronics	re need tone decoder circuit in article hplsla hp com tomb hplsla hp com tom bruhns writes does anybody out there have a circuit that will decode a hz tone use a ne tone decoder pll chip my impression it s not an area i ve played with much is that the much beloved ne is basically obsolete if you want to detect a khz tone set a switched capacitor filter chip to that frequency feed your input to it and see if anything comes out the other end the ne was what you used when good clean bandpass filters were hard to do nowadays they re easy and the results are better all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.electronics	motorola mc and mc does anyone out there know of any products using motorola s neuron r chips mc or mc if so what are they and are they utilizing standard network variable types snvt ted van den heuvel heuvel neptune iex com kx p
sci.electronics	re electronic odometers was used bmw question the bmw speedo is triggered by a reed switch magnet assembly in the differential i would think that this signal would be easy to reproduce
sci.electronics	ibm pc xt switch settings i just got an ibm pc xt with no documents its a true ibm and i was wondering if anyone had the definitions of the position dip switches thankx jim
sci.electronics	re adcom cheap products in article mdonahue x amiganet chi il us mdonahue amiganet chi il us mike donahue writes as for adcoms mobil they are going with amps that canb use balanced inputs a very nice toy but i m afraid its goig to push their amps beyound resonable price ranges especialy because taking advantage of those balanced inputs requires a rca to balanced adapter umm when i was doing sound reinforcement for a living i used to get direct boxes which convert unbalanced jacks to balanced xlrs for about each or a little more for higher quality you ll need two for a stereo signal of course and a little adapter thingy from radio sh t to convert from rca to total cost should be around you can also buy transformers for quite a bit less and wire them yourself total cost there should be under you can get all this stuff from any pro music shop that sells sound reinforcement gear the benefit no noise that you can hear will be generated in the cables going to the component with the balanced inputs even when you run them in bad places like next to power lines john bell nasa langley research center bell hops larc nasa gov
sci.electronics	re telephone on hook off hok ok circuit tony kidson tony morgan demon co uk wrote in article ohzs b w w k qwb lonestar org lrk k qwb lonestar org writes mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington writes in article ptolq p e werple apana org au petert zikzak apana org au peter just a thought of mine here since an on hook line is aprox v and off hook it usually drops below how about an led in series with a zener say around v on hook led on off hook led off would this work if anyone tries tried it please let me know aye there s the rub if you draw enough current to light an led the equipment at the phone company will think you ve gone off hook in the on hook state you re not supposed to draw current which means you should just use your digital voltmeter you can use an old vom but the phone company equipment can detect that and might think there s something wrong with the cable look guys what s the problem here if you want a light that goes on when the phone is off hook all you need it to run it in series with the line as i mentioned in my previous post if you want a light that goes on when the phone is on hook all you need is a voltage threshold detector if you re going to do the series diode thing which is the easiest just make sure that the led can take the current i can t recall it off hand but it s something like ma or more greggo greg moffatt moffatt bnr ca bell northern resarch inc ottawa canada my opinions not bnr s
sci.electronics	dumb question function generator i have a new scope and i thought i d save a few bucks by buying one with a function generator built in after having it awhile i noticed two things about the function generator for one there seems to be a bias even when the pull offset is pushed in that is i have to pull that know and adjust it to get a signal sans some random mv bias the other really annoying thing is that the damn output won t go below about v p p i am a student you may have guessed from my previous posts and i often have to measure the input impedances of various circuits i build many of the circuits have maximum input signals of way less than mv amplitude and most have input impedances in the s of kohm range the thing is in order to use my function generator i have to divide the voltage to some thing reasonable then of course to measurethe input impedance of my circuit i am going to have to throw in another resistor in series with the ohm output of the generator i could just ignore it but now with this little divider there i have to figure that in it s kind of a pain in the ass is there any way i could make myself a little box that could solve this little problem the box would tkae the function generator input lower the voltage and give an output impedance that is some low unchanging number i would want to lower the voltage by a factor of one hundred or so i could just build a little buffer amp but i d like to have this box not be active any quick ideas the scope s not broken for other reasons i had sent it to the shop to get repaired and they replaced it the function generator was the same way on that one too please help as i am feeling very stupid today dave dgj y virginia edu
sci.electronics	can i use a cd analog multiplexer for digital signals as the subject says can i use a for digital signals i don t see why it couldn t handle digital signals but i could be wrong anyone have any advice thanks i i raymond yeung internet nimbus uiuc edu rky uxa cso uiuc edu ee student at the university of illinois compuserve at urbana champaign i i
sci.electronics	re emergency vehicle sensors traffic light phreaks in article linnig apr m dseg ti com linnig m dseg ti com mike linnig writes folks here in the dallas area i have noticed that it is quite common to see an odd sensor on top of traffic lights these have been here for at least six years i ve often wondered what they are mike linnig texas instruments inc of all statistics are made here in erie pa there is a system in the inner city called rado lite a trade name which allows police and ambulance vehicles to gain right of way by controlling traffic lights through radio signals the receivers look much like what you describe but they include a uhf whip antenna less than a foot tall and a light which flashes on and off to let traffic know that an emergency vehicle has taken control and is approaching local folklore says this system was invented here i don t know if this company has any other installations it has been in operation for at least years going only by my memory bob sciamanda edinboro univ of pa
sci.electronics	faq corrections greetings i received a reply stating that unless someone else confirms that the following company is operating i should remove it from my lst pcb prototypes of sandy ut ronald baker south east sandy ut tel read below this is from the comm pcb faq commercial pcb makers also i don t have time to get the faq onto the sci answers because of what i like to refer to is red tape after the finals i ll see what i can do in the mean time anyone know of an ftp site that wouldn t mind a k file and last i have some new entries for the simusoft list mostly commercial institutional stuff but was wondering should i keep the restrictions on the price of the software to be considered under or should i include all those in digit prices also take care filip i ll buy a vowel gieszczykiewicz best e mail fmgst pitt edu all ideas are mine but they can be yours for only so respond now i live for my ee major winsurfing programming sca and assorted dreams mb drive linux has mb and ms dos has mb ms dos is worried
sci.electronics	re illusion this is not a new idea at least years ago i got this little gadget with a keyboard on the back and led s in a vertical row on the front it has a long handle and when you wave it in the air it writes the message you typed on the keyboard in the air this is not news in fact it s where i got the idea from since it was such a neat item mattell made it i believe modeled after a space saber or light sword or something likewise theme y my addition was using a motor for continuous display and polar effects in addition to character graphics i should have protected it when i had the chance no one to kick but myself ten years ago is about right since i built mine in or
sci.electronics	re need help with car stereo just a shot here but ya never know i once bought a real cheap equalizer power amp for my car tape player at one of those motel room truckload sales and it sounded great for a while that is then one channel quit entirely i opened it up and the amplifier chip for the bad channel had simply melted some of its solder joints attaching it to the pcb i soldered them back and it worked fine i just had to keep the volume a bit lower than i did before probably lousy heat sinking you said a nice alpine which i m sure is a few orders of mag higher in quality than the p o s i had but the point is look inside before you scrap it since you occasionally find something you can repair maybe even the same thing i found good luck
sci.electronics	re uninterruptible power supply i m no expert at ups s but you said something that made it sound like you didn t realize something on a typical ups well on ours anyway there is no switchover from ac to dc all the protected equipment is always running from the batteries via an inverter with the usual condition of also having them on charge if the power fails big deal the computers never see it until the batteries start to droop but there s something like car sized batteries in that cabinet so it takes a while if you were gonna run the guts on straight dc instead of an inverter why not do it all the time then there d be no switchover to screw things up and no having to sense the failure fast just keep the dc on charge when the power is on and it ll be there in zero time when you need it just some ideas can t guarantee what ll work or not but hope at least some of this helped
sci.electronics	exploding tv i had a ge emerson color tv for about years and one fine day while we were watching something i doubt if the program was the cause we heard a mild explosion our screen went blank but there was sound so we thought oh we have special effects on the program but soon the sound stopped and smoke started to appear at the back of the tv the brilliant ees we are we unplugged the tv and called customer service only to be thrown around by please hold i will transfer u to blah blah finally we abandoned the idea of trying to fix the tv and got a new one we wanted a bigger one too after all the story what i wanted to know is is my problem an isolated incident or a common one i recall reading about russian tvs exploding but not here in the us why would the picture tube explode or even smoke i still have the left over tv set i might dig into it this summer any idea where i can get parts for these things probably will cost more than tv w my prasad prasadr vtvm cc vt edu
sci.electronics	re can microwaves be used to collect xyz coordinates in article c hs j ag bcstec ca boeing com rgc bcstec ca boeing com robert g carpenter writes it seems reasonable to me that a microwave transmitter receiver setup could do the job for example say you want to map an acre lot it d be convenient to place mw transmitters around the lot s periphery either or and then carry a hand held recorder and walk to a point on the lot press a button and the coords of the recorder s location is stored as digital data what s the chance of this working any systems like this already exist what kind of accuracy could you expect what would something like this cost to prototype is there a better alternative than microwaves of course you could develope this system but there is already a system called global positioning satellites it gives three dimensional coordinates anywhere on earth many surveyors use this system with a differential receiver transmitter to get coordinates within centimeters basic receivers with resolution of a few meters on a good day are available from many sources wmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmw weston r beal sldf sol ee usu edu sldf cc usu edu electrical engineer utah state university that s the wonderful thing about crayons they can take you to more places than a starship can guinon
sci.electronics	low voltage lighting and x questions can low voltage lights be controlled with an x module by putting it before the transformer it seems to work even the dimmer works not very reliable will it damage the module can it be done reliably i put a motion switch heath to a low voltage light it worked but now it is broken too much current how can i get arround that how can i increase the intensity of a light using the x pc computer interface without having it go on first and then down i am doing my own programing not the x program thanks c montenegro
sci.electronics	re dumb question function generator in article c j b murdoch acc virginia edu dgj y kelvin seas virginia edu david glen jacobowitz writes i have a new scope and i thought i d save a few bucks by buying one with a function generator built in hmm now where was that ad for the combination radio hand cranked generator flashlight siren i saw function generator has a mv offset and the amplitude s too high is there any way i could make myself a little box that could solve this little problem the box would tkae the function generator input lower the voltage and give an output impedance that is some low unchanging number i would want to lower the voltage by a factor of one hundred or so i could just build a little buffer amp but i d like to have this box not be active sure you ve already got the right idea ignoring the ohm internal resistance of the generator for a second just run it into say a voltage divider made of ohms in series with ohms this new circuit is the thevenin equivalent of one that puts out of the original voltage and has an output impedence of negligibly less than ohms you may want to monkey with the values a little depending on whether you care more about the exact dividing ratio or the availability of parts hows that sound joel kolstad p s this is why those high voltage probes for multimeters can be accurate but still cheap they have something like megs in series with k which doesn t load the often high impedence source much as well as keeping the probably meg impedance multimeter happy
sci.electronics	re what to do with old k simms in article apr csx cciw ca u csx cciw ca g stewart beal writes i was wondering if people had any good uses for old k simms i have a bunch of them for the apple mac and i know lots of other people do to i have tried to sell them but have gotten no interest we use them as christmas tree decorations the cat doesn t eat these wex
sci.electronics	re a question about vac outlet wiring the truth i suggest that misc consumer house is a better forum for this several electricians a huge faq that adresses all the issues raised here wex
sci.electronics	how do di boxes work i m doing sound for a couple of bands around here and we need direct input boxes for the keyboards these are the little boxes that take a line level out of the keyboard and transform it into low z for the run to the mixer sadly they cost like or more each and i m going to need like or of them i looked inside one belonging to another band and it looks like just a transformer does anyone have any plans for building them perhaps in anderton s electronic projects for musicians book which i am having a hell of a time tracking down thanks a lot s ps post or email i read this group lancer wpi wpi edu modimidofrsaso mein kopf ist ein labyrinth mein leben ist ein minenfeld
sci.electronics	re analog switches balanced demodulators caadams atlas cs upei ca kenny adams writes hi instead of using a vdc supply for the try using a and volt supply i have some commercial audio equipment that uses this approach for ground referenced audio they use the volt supply as the logic ground in this case would the switch control voltages be v to turn the switch off and v to turn the switch on michael fulbright msf as arizona edu
sci.electronics	re a question about vac outlet wiring in article qids innebl chnews intel com crichmon sedona intel com chris richmond writes in article apr mprgate mpr ca vanderby mprgate mpr ca david vanderbyl writes in article apr ecsvax uncecs edu crisp ecsvax uncecs edu russ crisp writes i m considering modernizing some old wiring in my home and i need a little advice on outlet wiring several outlets are the old two prong type without the ground naturally the wire feeding these outlets is without the ground wire i noticed at the fusebox that some circuits have the with ground and that on these circuits the ground wire was tied to the same bus as the neutral white wire this is contrary to the electrical code and should be fixed well my house was built just last year and the breaker box is wired the same way there should be a connection of the ground wire to a ground in the breaker box there also should be a connection of the neutral wire to a ground in the breaker box there should be no other place in the building where such a connection occurs i e not in any of the outlet boxes the neutral white wire is a grounding conductor for the plug and is not safe to touch while the ground green wire is a protective ground and carries no current unless some kind of electrical fault has occurred it s safe to touch the protective ground but not to touch the grounding conductor because there is current in the grounding conductor its outlet box end will not be at the same ground potential as its breaker box end john whitmore
sci.electronics	re cable tvi interference in article vl b w w inqmind bison mb ca jim inqmind bison mb ca jim jaworski writes what happens when dvc digital videon compression is introduced next year and instead of just receiving squiggly lines on or channels we ll be receiving sqigglies on let s see channels eventually since the digital transmission schemes include error correction and concealment the performance remains about the same down to a very low carrier to noise ratio below which it degrades very quickly hence digitally compressed tv is supposed to be less susceptible to interference than amplitude modulated tv bill mcfadden tektronix inc p o box ms beaverton or bill tv tv tek com tektronix tv tv tek com bill phone how can i prove i am not crazy to people who are
sci.electronics	re where to buy parts or at a time the pricing of parts reminds me of something a chemist once said to me a gram of this dye costs a dollar it comes out of a liter jar which also costs a dollar and if you want a whole barrel of it that also costs a dollar i e they charge you almost exclusively for packaging it and delivering it to you the chemical itself in that particular case was a byproduct that cost almost nothing intrinsically michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
sci.electronics	re electronic odometers i had the insturment panel go out in my car a lincoln contenintal which is a digital dash they replaced the whole thing with a dash thank god it was under the warrenty anyway the odometer was reading the exact milage from the old panel it must have a eeprom of some sort in it that is up dated seems to me that removing the battery would erase it but it doesn t so i guess they swapped the nvm chip non volitile memory and installed it in the new dash no they wouldn t let me have the old dash to tinker with wes
sci.electronics	re uninterruptible power supply in article nurden elaine ee und ac za nurden elaine ee und ac za dale nurden writes i m wanting to build a simple ups for my pc sustain the computer long enough to complete the current task and save to minutes should be enough i think though i don t really need to keep the monitor active i can try to remember what to do so maybe i can avoid a dc ac inverter and just use a battery to directly supply the motherboard and peripherals now there s a good idea all you need is amps dc for a few minutes and a good wetware memory was i using wp or autocad or i thought of the same idea myself a few days ago i ve got a fairly new car battery that i take along in my x when i go camping and it sits around useless when i m home i wish i could get a batteryless ups to use it with or use it with a heavy duty volt regulator to supply the pc but i guess you d need v and v and too more batteries an alternative would be to leave a amp battery charger hooked up to the battery and run a vdc to vac converter running all the time and when the power goes out voi la the vac converter keeps on running off the battery and then i could take the vac converter and my computer on the camping trips harry langenbacher harry neuron jpl mil jpl nasa gov fax concurrent processing devices group jet propulsion laboratory m s oak grove dr pasadena ca usa
sci.electronics	microphone pre amp low noise phantom powered i m looking to build a microphone preamp that has very good low noise characteristics large clean gain and incorportates phantom power volts dc for a pzm microphone i m leaning towards a good low cost instrumentation amplifier to maintain the balanced input from the microphone for its good cmrr internal compensation and because i can use a minimal of parts does anyone out there have any experience suggestions advice etc that they d like to pass on i d greatly appreciate it a l a n m a c a l u s o purple moon giants ali cns nyu edu e th st b nyc
sci.electronics	re what to do with old k simms in article apr csx cciw ca u csx cciw ca g stewart beal writes in article netnews upenn edu jhaines eniac seas upenn edu jason haines writes i was wondering if people had any good uses for old k simms i have a bunch of them for the apple mac and i know lots of other people do to i have tried to sell them but have gotten no interest so if you have an inovative use or want to buy some simms i would be very interested in hearing about it one of the guys at work takes of them uses cyano acrylate glue to make five four wide panels then constructs a box with bottom to use as a pencil holder or if you ve got some entreprenuerial sp spirit get a cheapy clear plastic box mount the simm inside and sell it as a pet simm i m sure there are plenty of suckers out there who would go for it aaron
sci.electronics	re a question about vac outlet wiring olsen vetmed cvm uiuc edu aart olsen writes i noticed at the fusebox that some circuits have the with ground and that on these circuits the ground wire was tied to the same bus as the neutral white wire this is contrary to the electrical code and should be fixed sorry but this is exactly according to the nec no need to be sorry i blew it on this one at the main breaker box where there is a thick wire ground leading to the earth both neutral and ground are hooked to this bus in any other breaker box or an outlet box etc the ground and neutral must not be connected together
sci.electronics	re mysterious tv problem source llbgb utxdp dp utexas edu writes initial symptoms no picture or sound crt filament does not glow flyback ticking as described abovew discovered when hooked up the scope if strip is not putting out audio or video signals everything is making simple hz pulses horiz out transistor collector case of the to is a hz downgoing sawtooth with ca khz ring at front end guys what s going on here anyone seen this before what is happening is this you turn the tv on the horizontal output begins normal operation this powers up the high voltage and most of the rest of the circuitry a problem is sensed and the horizontal oscillator shuts down after it powers down the cycle repeats things to check first check for a shorted high power component your best bet is the vertical output transistor s or if there is one the voltage regulator the most common cause of this type of failure is too much current being drawn somewhere also look for shutdown circuits which your tv may or may not have if you can find one that is shutting down the horizontal oscillator then it shouldn t be too hard to find the problem from there
sci.electronics	re what are some good suppliers of chips in article qihcl ri usenet ins cwru edu ae cleveland freenet edu paul simundza writes anyone know of any good supplier s of chips one that could have almost any chip i need i don t want to hunt down all the chips i may need so it would be greatly appreciated if anyone knows of a good distributor thankyou paul unfortunately there are not too many retail outlets that ll stock just about every chip made the stuff they will stock are the ones that ll sell like standard dram s s s etc etc i e i cna t think of any one stop shopping store the closest you can get is to pick up a copy of byte magazine or the circuit cellar popular electronics and the like and flip through them distributors like wyle electronics hamilton avnet pioneer electronics etc etc don t normally deal with end users like ourselves where we only a couple of everything they only deal with people who buy by the hundreds or more each distributor represents and sells a variety of different non competing manufacturers what do i mean by this suppose abc electronics sells intel s it s a pretty good bet that they won t be selling any of amd s s or vice versa they also can obtain just about any chip you want from a manufacturer they represent who knows you might be lucky to be able to buy from one of them but i d be suprised if you do also bear in mind that the or qty prices they will charge you will be much greater than what a mail order outlet will charge my advice if you re gonna be designing anything try to stick with off the shelf stuff you re going to get stuck if you use too many esoteric parts sooner or later good luck aaron
sci.electronics	re ibm pc xt switch settings in article qk kcp bigbird hri com obrien bigbird hri com writes i just got an ibm pc xt with no documents its a true ibm and i was wondering if anyone had the definitions of the position dip switches sw sw number of drives drive drives drives drives sw sw type of display reserved x color mono mode x color mono mode mono x sw sw amount of memory on system board k chips k chips k k k k k k k k sw co processor installed sw loop on post
sci.electronics	need acs tutorial and or netlist examples i recently ftp d al s circuit simulator acs and i m looking for the tutorial which is mentioned in the users manual but not found there i don t have any experience constructing a netlist such as for spice and i need a little help the examples which come with acs aren t explanatory about the translation between schematic and netlist does anyone have the fabled tutorial or any other reference which could help me in constructing a netlist from a schematic diagram i also emailed al himself but received no response yet he s probably busy with his next release tim pillsbury internet tsp ccd harris com uunet uunet ccd harris com timothy pillsbury
sci.electronics	new mailserver soon utopia service for all those who are interested and would like to discuss the popular secret life and or other technical documentaries please email me as i am starting a newsgroup jolt gnu ai mit edu its not impossible just improbable johnp pro angmar uucp zaphod beeblbrox bl cleveland freenet edu n nig amsat org being a ham is so grand
sci.electronics	re source for carbide pc board drills in article c ejl lin news cis umn edu mike diack mike d staff tc umn edu writes in article c dgg ox wang com pvr wang com writes who sells the special carbide drills used to drill pc boards i am looking for sizes smaller than or would be good best deal i ever saw on carbides was at eli electronics cambridge mass quite close to mit drills for a box of eli are in the boston fone book actually i think they are all their phone number is and i will probably have some over at the mit flea this sunday mike michael l ardai n ist teradyne atg boston ardai maven dnet teradyne com
sci.electronics	cheap lcd panels seeking info attention hardware hackers and bargain seekers i just bought a x pixel lcd panel for uk pounds i have a datasheet for a similar panel but i m looking for proper data if anyone can help with locating data for this device before i start with the routine on the phone to hitachi and rummaging through the library then i ll pass on the source type lm hitachi resolution w x h so can do x chars on x matrix bought from greenweld electronics ltd park rd southampton so tb uk tel fax email compuserve nb i only just bought this i don t even know if it works price was uk pounds including vat which isn t payable if you re outside the ec thanks for any info chris chris hand lecturer internet mail cph dmu ac uk dept of computing science voice x de montfort university the gateway fax fidonet leicester uk le bh linux free unix for ibm pcs
sci.electronics	re r s battery of the month club in article jwaterma apr jade tufts edu jwaterma jade tufts edu jason waterman writes i talked to a friend who works for radio shack and he said the deal with the red batteries were that they had too much lead in them condidering the red batteries had a life cycle shorter than a mayflies i think the epa was worried about all those batteries being dumped out pardon me but why would carbon zinc cells have any lead in them at all scott
sci.electronics	re do analog systems need ground planes engp nusunix nus sg soh kam yung writes i understand the need for a ground plane in a digital system however i would like to know if such a ground plane is also necessary in an analog system note this ground plane will not be connected except at one point to the signal ground i keep getting conflicting answers over this does having a ground plane in an analog system help reduce noise also my system only deals with low frequency signals up to hz only well one reason for getting conflicting answers is that it depends on what you want the ground plane to do a continuous conductor is a good electrostatic shield do you have signals on your board that need shielding rom other things this shielding won t do much good for magnetic fields unless you make it continuous around the circuit to be shielded like a faraday cage the flip side of the coin if you are working with very high impedances you could end up with capacitances to the gound plane that cause problems you aren t likely to encounter this at hz but at khz it can be a real problem one that bit me once
sci.electronics	re what to do with old k simms in article c jch frc ulowell ulowell edu wex cs ulowell edu writes in article apr csx cciw ca u csx cciw ca g stewart beal writes i was wondering if people had any good uses for old k simms i have a bunch of them for the apple mac and i know lots of other people do to i have tried to sell them but have gotten no interest we use them as christmas tree decorations the cat doesn t eat these yes but they don t look appropriate i much prefer used tubes on my tree scott
sci.electronics	re microphone pre amp low noise phantom powered in c jjj tf cmcl nyu edu ali cns nyu edu alan macaluso writes i m looking to build a microphone preamp that has very good low noise characteristics large clean gain and incorportates phantom power volts dc for a pzm microphone i m leaning towards a good low cost instrumentation amplifier to maintain the balanced input from the microphone for its good cmrr internal compensation and because i can use a minimal of parts does anyone out there have any experience suggestions advice etc that they d like to pass on i d greatly appreciate it a l a n m a c a l u s o purple moon giants ali cns nyu edu e th st b nyc without doing anything really tricky the best i ve seen is the burr brown ina their databook shows a good application of this chip as a phantom power mic pre josephson engineering san jose california microphones tel fax instrumentation email david josephson com ftp info from rahul net pub davidj
sci.electronics	re network zjoc hou amoco com jack o coats writes the same folks now have out lbl little big lan for i think you get it for if you already own network lbl works with arcnet parallel ports and serial ports in any combination for up to or so nodes lbl now offers ethernet support also although presently it is limited to ne ne style boards lbl owners can get an update for ray berry kb ht ray ole cdac com rjberry eskimo com compuserve com
sci.electronics	where to find cheap lcd displays sci e e netters i am setting out to build and market a small electronic device that requires an lcd display all of the analog electronics are working fine i have ordered a pic ice not vice versa since the pics are so cheap and low power but i am having a devil of a time finding any lcd displays in the digit range that are priced as low as i need i am looking for somthing in the range of in quantities of about mainstream distributors like almac cannot help me without a part number or when they do look around for something in their line they find a digit lcd even digikey s cheapest offering is in quantity i know lcd displays like this must exist because i see whole calculators for sale for meaning the retailer probably buys it for and the wholesaler probably gets it for or so this includes assembly labor packaging sales transportation import duties the case and keyboard the pc board the processor chip the solar cell and the lcd the lcd can t cost much if anyone could put me in touch with some manufacturers and or distributors that handle such things i would be much obliged joe betts betts netcom com p s i have tried tearing apart several cheap consumer devices that have lcds only to find that the lcds are unlabelled has anyone else had better luck with this strategy
sci.electronics	amplifier into cd rom earphone plug we have a sun cd rom drive which i would like to play audio cd s in i have an old watt amplifier which works fine when connected to a junk walkman style am fm radio this amp ties the common path of the earphone connection to ground however it doesn t work with my sony walkman cassette player or the cd drive it produces of loud low frequency tone obviously sony doesn t ground the earphone output common does anyone have specs on the cd drive s output will an audio transformer help what are others using to play there cd s in the sun drive so that more than one can listen thanks for the help bill morrow clinical neurosciences university of calgary e mail morrow cns ucalgary ca voice fax hospital drive nw calgary alberta canada t n n
sci.electronics	re radar detector detectors in apr vdoe vak ed edu ragee vdoe vak ed edu randy agee writes so the questions are what do the radar detector detectors actually detect would additional shielding grounding bypassing shield stray rf generated by a radar detector or is the rf actually being emitted by the detector antenna are any brands quieter than others ok so your a ham well tune in mhz or khz these numbers sound like some you have herd before thats right you guessed it they are common if numbers every super het receiver has a local oscillator s which generates an if this is what your detector detector is detecting the local oscillator some of these have two or more local oscillator which generate more ways to receiver you if you want to receiver something at say ghz you must generate a local oscillator signal of ghz mhz your local osc frequency this mhz if is then fed into a normal agc ckt the detector is keyed uppon the agc voltage your mileage may vary since the agc is a negative feed back device a positive voltage sets off a i think you get the picture
sci.electronics	subliminal message flashing on tv hi i was doing research on subliminal suggestion for a psychology paper and i read that one researcher flashed hidden messages on the tv screen at ths of a second is that possible i thought the maximum rate the tv was even capable of displaying images was th of a second or th of a second for an image composed of only odd or even scan lines rich kennehra logic camp clarkson edu
sci.electronics	telcom wiring question need help i ve got two lines coming into my apartment two different telephone numbers when i ordered the second line installed instead of bringing out another wire bundle the telco just connected up to my yellow and black wires so i have one line on red green and the other on yellow black today i was monitoring the voltage on both lines i had a voltmeter across the red and green and read back volts i then lifted up the receiver on my second line black yellow wires the voltage dropped to volts on the first line red green wires i repeated this experiment with the second line monitoring black yellow and lifting the handset off the cradle on the red and green line it also dropped to volts why is this i thought these were separate lines next i went to the block and disconnected the blue and white lines coming in from the telco cable i then disconnected all the phones in my apartment and went back to the block and did some resistance measurements both lines read open i ll appreciate any help on this is this considered normal guy urbina urbina novax llnl gov
sci.electronics	beam robot olympic games next week in toronto one week to the robot olympic games fire up the mechanoids for combat and come on down competitors please note that there has been a slight change the registration desk will now be in the forward building of the science centre rather than in the main competing hall when you arrive please go to this desk those that have pre registered by real mail will find badges waiting is all see you here mark tilden glitch m f c f hardware design lab u of waterloo ont can n l g ext my opinions you hear mine mine mine mine mine ah hahahahahahahahaha
sci.electronics	re electronic odometers was used bmw question in article apr slcs slb com dcd se houston geoquest slb com dan day writes that s scary if there s a way to set an arbitrary mileage figure into the odometer you can t trust any odometer reading even if you can prove that the odometer itself is the same one that came on the car originally i was wondering if anyone can shed any light on just how it is that these electronic odometers remember the total elapsed mileage what kind of memory is stable reliable enough non volatile enough and independent enough of outside battery power to last say years or more in the life of a vehicle i m amazed that anything like this could be expected to work for this length of time especially in light of all the gizmos i work with that are doing good to work for months without breaking down somehow side question how about the legal ramifications of selling a used car with a replaced odometer that starts over at miles after say k actual miles looks like fraud would be fairly easy for the price of a new odometer you can say it has however many miles you want to tell the buyer it has thanks for any insight kim greer duke university medical center klg orion mc duke edu div nuclear medicine pob voice durham nc fax
sci.electronics	data pods b for hp logic analyzer a anyone out there in netland have a spare data pod or two from an old a hewlett packard logic analyzer if you do i d like to buy it off of you the pod s part number is b as a side note anyone know of any good surplus dealer or other organization that would carry wayward logic analzer pods thanks a byte tod tod cco caltech edu
sci.electronics	re exploding tv sounds like the picture tube lost vacuum this would cause the filament to ignite and could actually turn the tube from a vacuum to a pressure vessel followed by an explosion when the neck assembly mostly likely cracked to begin with blows off during the whole sequence of events the other circuits may continue functioning which accounts for not losing sound
sci.electronics	scope questions greetings i ve been seeing the word storage mentioned around oscilliscopes but i m curious what does it mean if my life depended on it i d say that it s a scope that uses long persistance phosphor to keep the successive taces on the screen for some unit of time store them do i get to live also i ve been shopping for a decent used old scope since my tek a portable not and my heathkit o are all single trace and i need more like or and at least mhz maybe during my shopping at hamfests etc i ve run into the problem of old scope terminology i can imagine what a mainframe and plug in are but some things like the above storage coax input hey where do i get a probe that fits this i had to fiddle with mine for a week before i got anything resembling a good trace they all come with bnc connectors unblanking huh and oh just like my manuals many changes were made along the way to the schematic scopes even with identical model numbers have different better response performance than others how can i pick the better one does the rule of the higher sn the better apply take care filip i ll buy a vowel gieszczykiewicz best e mail fmgst pitt edu all ideas are mine but they can be yours for only so respond now i live for my ee major winsurfing programming sca and assorted dreams mb drive linux has mb and ms dos has mb ms dos is worried
sci.electronics	re cd player going wonky advise needed in article apr nessie mcc ac uk sl nessie mcc ac uk stuart lea writes hello i ve got a problem with my cd player sony cdp in that it refuses to play discs more than a minor inconvenience the player itself doesn t recognise that there is a disc in it s an intermitant problem but one that is becoming more frequent is this a common problem with older cd players and if so what can be done to rectify it if there is no obvious answer how can i begin to start fault finding to start off with how does thet mach recognise that there is a disc in in the first place my experience is that the cd drawer becomes a bit loose and the cd either skips or can t be read try seeing if all the screws that hold down the drawer assembly are tightened properly other than that my next guess would be one of the motors hope this helps dave haans laurentian university sudbury ontario
sci.electronics	re adcom cheap products mdonahue amiganet chi il us mike donahue writes i do not know much about adcom mobil audio products but i do know for a fact that adcom does not make its own high end home audio equptment and that of it comes directly out of tiawan like most high volume manufacturers adcom has most of its pc boards assembled off shore in their case mostly in the far east final assembly and testing are done in east brunswick the products are and have always been designed entirely in the us by their own staff and by audiophile gurus like walter jung adcom also tends to prefer american and european components over their japanese far east equivalents off shore assembly is one reason that adcom is able to make products that perform as well as those from people like audio research and van alstine and better than hafler and forte but at a much lower cost of course if your musical diet consists mostly of rock you might prefer components from kenwood or pioneer roger williams most great discoveries are made rogerw world std com by accident the larger the consulting engineer funding the longer it takes to middleborough mass have that accident
sci.electronics	re telephone on hook off hok ok circuit in article apr bnr ca moffatt bnr ca john thomson writes just a thought of mine here since an on hook line is aprox v and off hook it usually drops below how about an led in series with a zener say around v on hook led on off hook led off would this work if anyone tries tried it please let me know aye there s the rub if you draw enough current to light an led the equipment at the phone company will think you ve gone off hook in the on hook state you re not supposed to draw current which means you should just use your digital voltmeter you can use an old vom but the phone company equipment can detect that and might think there s something wrong with the cable look guys what s the problem here if you want a light that goes on when the phone is off hook all you need it to run it in series with the line as i mentioned in my previous post if you want a light that goes on when the phone is on hook all you need is a voltage threshold detector if you re going to do the series diode thing which is the easiest just make sure that the led can take the current i can t recall it off hand but it s something like ma or more careful now folks also consider the vac hz that is forced on ring and tip when the phone s supposed to ring even with a simple zener and led setup you might end up with some carbon real quick whatever scheme you use make sure you ve got at least v rated components on the frontend also remember that if i m not mistaken the phone line is a ohm equivalent circuit any current you draw from the v or so gets dropped across that ohms that s fine until you re down to roughly v when ma bell considers it to be off hook but dropping it that far down is probably a big no no the easiest implementation to accomplish the above tip rectifier resistor diode v zener resistor v led ring this is only a suggestion go ahead and blow holes in it but you get the idea choose a high efficiency led so you don t need much current to get it to light up choose values for the other components as required aaron
sci.electronics	re uninterruptible power supply in article qk inn hp col col hp com cab col hp com chris best writes i m no expert at ups s but you said something that made it sound like you didn t realize something on a typical ups well on ours anyway there is no switchover from ac to dc all the protected equipment is always running from the batteries via an inverter with the usual condition of also having them on charge if the power fails big deal the computers never see it until the batteries start to droop but there s something like car sized batteries in that cabinet so it takes a while if you were gonna run the guts on straight dc instead of an inverter why not do it all the time then there d be no switchover to screw things up and no having to sense the failure fast just keep the dc on charge when the power is on and it ll be there in zero time when you need it actually it s a bit more complicated than that i sounds to me your ups takes in ac rectifies it to dc to charge the batteries and then takes the battery dc and chops it to ac again feeding your equipment this approach is the easiest and cleanest way to switchover from the mains to battery once your power kicks out since as you mentioned nothing will know about what happened down the line another way to do the ups scheme is to use the mains until you lose power and then kick in the battery backup with it s inverter to replace the lost power the problem here is the switchover time and you ve got to resync the ac in no time flat unfortunately most everything is built around the assumption that ac is available so the ups guys have to provide and ac output to be usable ya sorta have to make it work with what there already similar story with our telephone system it was first invented back in the s we re still using the same damn system media as they did back then if i have a phone from back then i can assure you it ll work on today s phone system it costs too much to overhaul everyone to a new system so they make it work with what is out there
sci.electronics	re exploding tv in article qk hj qos vtserf cc vt edu prasad vtaix cc vt edu prasad ramakrishna writes i had a ge emerson color tv for about years and one fine day while we were watching something i doubt if the program was the cause we heard a mild explosion our screen went blank but there was sound so we thought oh we have special effects on the program but soon the sound stopped and smoke started to appear at the back of the tv the brilliant ees we are we unplugged the tv and called customer service only to be thrown around by please hold i will transfer u to blah blah finally we abandoned the idea of trying to fix the tv and got a new one we wanted a bigger one too after all the story what i wanted to know is is my problem an isolated incident or a common one i recall reading about russian tvs exploding but not here in the us why would the picture tube explode or even smoke i still have the left over tv set i might dig into it this summer any idea where i can get parts for these things probably will cost more than tv heh heh heh heh i laugh because i have the same damn tv and it did the same thing actually it is a goldstar but it s essentially the same tv and electronics just a different face plate and name fortunately tv tubes don t explode i d think the tv mfrs want to make this possibility remote as possible if at all they ll implode and the glass that blows out would be the result of the glass boucing off the back of the tube due to the implosion in any case don t kick it around i fixed the tv after getting a hold of some schematics it turned out to be a blown w resistor feeding the flyback transformer i guess the original resistor was a bit too small to dissipate the heat it created burning itself out i checked to make sure the flyback wasn t shorted or anything first oh luckily i had a resistor handy lying around that had just the right value for what i needed i can t see it being more than cents well needless to say the tv still works today so go get a set of schematics and have some fun just don t get shocked poking around the flyback
sci.electronics	re adc card for computer in article qi e b e lll winken llnl gov you say i would like to digitize the output of a squid magnetometer range v to v and do digital signal processing in a computer say a macintosh ii or a pc i would like a good bit adc with good linearity and a high conversion speed at least khz preferably khz other concerns must i use an adc external to my computer to avoid digital noise feedback into my sensitive squid electronics might be a good idea the resolution you requested is about mv in order to get what you ve paid for noise level better be lower than that it is kind of hard to do it in a noisy box like you can expect inside a pc before you pay for a pc card test it out by sampling a low distortion sine wave i think there is a sine wave on a cd digital domain there are possibly other low thd sources run the digitized waveform through a fft transform and take alook at the noise floor on the spectrum that s should give you a good indication of the design that s what i am doing to test a data acquistion system i have designed i got the idea from maxim data sheet if you can live with bit resolution i would recommend looking at the max from maxim it is a high speed khz complete sampling a d with dsp interface the input range is v and it uses a serial interface which can easily be optically isolated from the computer to elinimate a major noise source the analog design guide i got from them shows a db noise level they claim a db max typ thd looks pretty good for the pieces a evaluation kit is available might want to give these nice folks a call or fax and ext for application assistance this assumes that you can build your own das and write your own software hey you can get the max as a free sample just by calling the i would appreciate discussion of your personal experience with a mac or pc based adc system i would recommend you to find out the resolution that can be gotten out of your system by looking at the noise level otherwise you might be throwing out your money charles cunningham cec imager llnl gov k c lee elec eng grad student i have no connection with maxim except i do in general recommend companies that give samples to students to others i feel they deserve that for being nice to me
sci.electronics	re what to do with old k simms in article netnews upenn edu jhaines eniac seas upenn edu jason haines writes i was wondering if people had any good uses for old k simms i have a bunch of them for the apple mac and i know lots of other people do to i have tried to sell them but have gotten no interest so if you have an inovative use or want to buy some simms i would be very interested in hearing about it the most practical use i ve seen for them is as key ring ornaments johnh
sci.electronics	re radar detector detectors in article oxenreid chaos cs umn edu oxenreid chaos cs umn edu writes in apr vdoe vak ed edu ragee vdoe vak ed edu randy agee writes so the questions are are any brands quieter than others yes some radar detectors are less detectable by radar detector detectors look in car and driver last months should do they had a big review of the better detectors and stealth was a factor steven m knapp computer engineering student sknapp iastate edu president cyclone amateur radio club iowa state university ames ia usa durham center operations staff
sci.electronics	re making copy of a video tape there are devices you can buy and or make look in radio popular electronics mags for the devices if all else fails you can build one using the curcuit design from the dec issue of radio electronics my very favorite ad for such a device is on the back of the latest damark catalog quoting from memory big flashy type dual deck vcr copies any tape even those that are copy protected and underneath the ad in very small print this device is not intended for making illegal copies of copyrighted material gordon s hlavenka cgordon vpnet chi il us vote straight ticket procrastination party dec rd
sci.electronics	re electronic odometers was used bmw question in article apr porthos cc bellcore com dje bmw nosubdomain nodomain don eilenberger writes in article apr nimbus com jimiii nimbus com jim warford writes there are two simple procedures for alterating any odometer mechanical driven odometer remove the speedo cable from the transmission attach a drill and run at max speed until the speedo turns over continue until the desired mileage is reached electronically driven odometer remove the sensor wire from the sensor attach the calibration out signal from an oscope to the wire run until the speedo turns over and attains the desired mileage dear faster i kinda wonder have you ever tried version on what since the sensor wire on a bmw feeds also into the computer and we don t know what signal voltage is expected from it bad things could happen also since we don t know the pulse rate we may damage the analog part of the speedo yes bmw uses a combined instrument speed in analog trip and total milage is digital with the needle pegged up against the mph stop just a thought you ve got the oscilliscope so you connect it up to the sensor wire and measure this stuff that way you know what it expects matthew t russotto russotto eng umd edu russotto wam umd edu some news readers expect disclaimer here just say no to police searches and seizures make them use force not responsible for bodily harm resulting from following above advice
sci.electronics	re picking up cable tv with an aerial in article gyjx b w w inqmind bison mb ca dino inqmind bison mb ca tony stewart writes jfsenior unix tcd ie john senior writes recently i discovered that it was possible to receive cable tv through the telescopic aerial on the top of my tv the nearer this aerial is moved to the cable which i am not connected to which runs under the eaves of the house the better the signal now i was wondering how can i improve the signal is it possible to improve the signal significantly some channels cable egress or emanations if you will are being radiated at free space impedance from cables that may be harmonically realated to certain channels and therfore the standing waves at wave will transfer efficiently also your antenna a loose monopole is also harmonically tuned and will be more efficient at wavelength multiples your best bet for this research is to use a tuned yagi antenna to get the gain you need std tv roof antenna type the dipoles should be parallel to the radiating cable a pre amp doesn t help significantly in my experience in most cases dino inqmind bison mb ca the inquiring mind bbs winnipeg manitoba wow what a concept does anybody want to speculate on how this non connection would fit into the theft of cable services laws it seems to me that unless this case is specifically written into the legislation that the cable company would not have a leg to stand upon in court does anybody out there have any specific legal knowledge on this jim ritterbusch ritterbus wcsu ctstateu edu or ne radiomail net temp rf there is an art the guide says or rather a knack to flying the knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss
sci.electronics	hard drive component costs does anyone have some information on the relative fraction of the final cost of each component in an average hard drive for instance i m pretty sure the heads and the platters are the most expensive parts with the assembly costs running a close third cost of the electronics is likely in the noise any hard numbers or percentage thanks kevin doherty e systems melpar division doherty melpar esys com principal engineer falls church va x kevin doherty e systems melpar division doherty melpar esys com principal engineer falls church va x
sci.electronics	re radar detector detectors alee bmerh bnr ca louis leclerc writes in article oasys dt navy mil you write va ct wash dc and i think bc canada where i ve heard they actually use radar detector detectors nope not in british columbia detectors are legal here in bc i ve even got one in alberta and ontario they re illegal and detection devices are sometimes used i ve heard the police in ontario prefer a much more direct method of detection just trigger the radar gun watch for people slamming on the brakes and search the car david lee leex sfu ca they are illegal here in manitoba as well though i don t know what methods are used to detect them it has always amazed me with the way the laws work it is not illegal to sell them here in manitoba only to have them within a vehicle last i heard they don t have to be installed to be illegal victor inqmind bison mb ca the inquiring mind bbs winnipeg manitoba
sci.electronics	re a question about vac outlet wiring in article apr ecsvax uncecs edu crisp ecsvax uncecs edu russ crisp wrote hello i m considering modernizing some old wiring in my home and i need a little advice on outlet wiring several outlets are the old two prong type without the ground naturally the wire feeding these outlets is without the ground wire i noticed at the fusebox that some circuits have the with ground and that on these circuits the ground wire was tied to the same bus as the neutral white wire so here s my question it seems to me that i d have the same electrical circuit if i hooked the neutral d d d d d d d d d d da jumper from the neutral over to the ground screw on new three prong grounding outlets what s wrong with my reasoning here first it will not pass a national electrical code inspection secondly the neutral wire is current carrying and the ground wire shouldn t be or only during a fault condition the reason the neutral and ground are tied together in the panel is the tranformer on the power pole has a grounded center tap secondary with the grounded center tap the neutral this gives v to neutral ground from each side of the transformer and v across the transformer so in effect the neutral and ground should be at the same potential mark e kilpela email mkilpela mtu edu michigan technological university school of technology
sci.electronics	what do nuclear site s cooling towers do i really don t know where to post this question so i figured that this board would be most appropriate i was wondering about those massive concrete cylinders that are ever present at nuclear poer sites they look like cylinders that have been pinched in the middle does anybody know what the actual purpose of those things are i hear that they re called cooling towers but what the heck do they cool i hope someone can help
sci.electronics	re a question about vac outlet wiring in article apr ecsvax uncecs edu crisp ecsvax uncecs edu russ crisp writes i m considering modernizing some old wiring in my home and i need a little advice on outlet wiring several outlets are the old two prong type without the ground naturally the wire feeding these outlets is without the ground wire i noticed at the fusebox that some circuits have the with ground and that on these circuits the ground wire was tied to the same bus as the neutral white wire so here s my question it seems to me that i d have the same electrical circuit if i hooked the jumper from the neutral over to the ground screw on new three prong grounding outlets what s wrong with my reasoning here no no nooo the ground green wire is for safety no current is supposed to flow in it under normal conditions this means that there s normally no voltage drop in it either it is supposed to be safe to touch the ground wire even if you re grounded in some other way at the same time the neutral white wire is as dave vanderbyl correctly said the return for the hot wire since current flows in it there s a voltage drop if you plug a heavy load into a properly wired grounded outlet you can commonly measure a volt or so of difference between neutral and ground they are supposed to be connected together at the breaker panel but nowhere repeat nowhere else well almost there are strange exceptions for things like sub panels what you can do if you want three prong outlets without additional wiring is to use a gfci outlet or breaker but the outlet will be cheaper in fact depending on where you are putting your new outlet s a gfci may be required there is a faq on electrical wiring posted regularly to rec woodworking and news answers it goes into great detail on these issues including gfcis and you should probably read it before asking any more questions i ll mail a copy to you append a copy here and will ask the writers to cross post it here in the future jamie hanrahan kernel mode systems san diego ca internet jeh cmkrnl com uucp uunet cmkrnl jeh cis
sci.electronics	electrical wiring faq was a question about vac outlet wiring since electrical wiring questions do turn up from time to time on sci electronics and the answers aren t always apparent even to those skilled in electronics i am hijacking the following faq and posting a copy here i ve asked the writers to cross post to sci electronics in the future jeh cmkrnl com x news cmkrnl news answers newsgroups misc consumers house rec woodworking news answers misc answers rec answers subject electrical wiring faq message id wirefaq ecicrl from clewis ferret ocunix on ca chris lewis date apr gmt reply to wirefaq ferret ocunix on ca wiring faq commentary reception followup to poster expires may gmt organization elegant communications inc ottawa canada summary a series of questions and answers about house wiring supersedes wirefaq ecicrl lines archive name electrical wiring last modified sun feb est frequently asked questions on electrical wiring steven bellovin smb ulysses att com chris lewis clewis ferret ocunix on ca comments to automatic if you reply to this article wirefaq ferret ocunix on ca this faq is formatted as a digest most news readers can skip from one question to the next by pressing g answers to many other topics related to houses can be obtained from the misc consumers house archive send an empty piece of mail to house archive dg rtp dg com for information changes to previous issue marked with in left column watch particularly for new in the questions list for new or substantively changed answers note that this is now a registered faq cross posted to news answers and should appear in the faq list of lists subject questions answered in this faq introduction disclaimers what is the nec where can i get a copy what is the cec where can i get a copy can i do my own wiring extra pointers what do i need in the way of tools what is ul listing what is csa approval are there any cheaper easier to read books on wiring inspections how and what why should i get my wiring inspected my house doesn t meet some of these rules and regulations a word on voltages what does an electrical service look like what is a circuit grounding versus grounded versus neutral what does a fuse or breaker do what are the differences breakers can t i use fuses what size wire should i use where do these numbers come from what does mean what is a wirenut marrette marr connector how are they used what is a gfi gfci where should gfcis be used where shouldn t i use a gfci what is the difference between a gfci outlet and a gfci breaker what s the purpose of the ground prong on an outlet then why is one prong wider than the other polarization what kind of outlets do i need in a kitchen where must outlets and switches be in bathrooms what is romex nm nmd what is bx when should i use each should i use plastic or metal boxes junction box positioning can i install a replacement fixture what does it mean when the lights brighten when a motor starts what is phase power should i use it can i get it in my house is it better to run motors at or what is this nonsense about hp on v a circuits how do i convert two prong receptacles to three prong are you sure about gfcis and ungrounded outlets should the test button work how should i wire my shop underground wiring aluminum wiring i m buying a house what should i do what is this weird stuff old style wiring where do i buy stuff subject introduction disclaimers although we ve done a fair bit of wiring we are not electricians and we cannot be responsible for what you do if you re at all uncertain about what is correct or safe don t do it contact someone qualified a licensed electrician or your local electrical inspector electricity is no joke mistakes can result in shocks fires or electrocution furthermore our discussion is based on the u s national electrical code nec and the canadian electrical code cec to the best of our abilities we have confirmed every detail with the electrical code but we don t quote sections simply to keep this thing readable if you think we re wrong we invite you to correct us but please quote references the nec and the cec do not in and of themselves have the force of law many municipalities adopt it en toto others however do not check your with your local building department and provincial hydro inspection offices in canada to find out what applies in your area also your local electrical utility may also have special requirements for electrical service installation bear in mind too that we say here applies primarily to ordinary single family residences multi family dwellings mobile homes commercial establishments etc are sometimes governed by different rules also note that contrary to popular belief in the u s and in some parts of canada canada is not a wholly owned subsidiary of the u s consequently the nec does not apply in canada lots of things are the same including voltages line frequencies and the laws of physics but there are a number of crucial differences in the regulations where we can we ve noted them flagging the relevant passages with nec or cec remember that the cec and nec are minimal standards it is often smart to go beyond their minimal requirements subject what is the nec where can i get a copy the nec is a model electrical code devised and published by the national fire protection association an insurance industry group it s revised every three years the version has been released you can buy a copy at a decent bookstore or by calling them directly at the code exists in several versions there s the full text which is fairly incomprehensible there s an abridged edition which has only the sections likely to apply to most houses and there s the nec handbook which contains the authorized commentary on the code as well as the full text that s the recommended version unfortunately there s no handbook for the abridged edition and the full handbook is expensive us plus shipping and handling subject what is the cec where can i get a copy the canadian standards association is an organization made up of various government agencies power utilities insurance companies electrical manufacturers and other organizations the csa publishes csa standard c which is updated every two or three years each province adopts with some amendments this standard and publishes a province specific code book since each province publishes its own slightly modified standard it would be somewhat confusing to obtain the csa standard itself in this faq cec really means the appropriate provincial standard in particular this faq is derived from the ontario hydro electrical safety code th edition which is in turn based on csa c th edition while differences exist between the provinces an attempt has been made to avoid specific to ontario detail the appropriate provincial code can be obtained from electrical inspection offices of your provincial power authority in ontario it s ontario hydro the ontario hydro book isn t overly fat it s about c and includes mailed updates i hear that these standards are somewhat easier to read than the equivalent nec publications don t bother asking in quebec diy wiring is banned throughout the province subject can i do my own wiring extra pointers in most places homeowners are allowed to do their own wiring in some they re not check with your local electrical inspector most places won t permit you to do wiring on other s homes for money without a license nor are you permitted to do wiring in commercial buildings multiple dwellings eg duplexes are usually considered semi commercial or commercial however many jurisdictions will permit you to work on semi commercial wiring if you re supervised by a licensed electrician if you can find one willing to supervise if you do your own wiring an important point do it neat and well what you really want to aim for is a better job than an electrician will do after all it s your own home and it s you or your family that might get killed if you make a mistake an electrician has time pressures has the skills and knows the tricks of the trade to do a fast safe job in this faq we ve consciously given a few recommendations that are in excess of code because we feel that it s reasonable and will impress the inspector the inspector will know that you re an amateur you have to earn his trust the best way of doing this is to spend your time doing as neat a job as possible don t cut corners exceed specifications otherwise the inspector may get extremely picky and fault you on the slightest transgressions don t try to hide anything from the inspector use the proper tools ie don t use a bread knife to strip wires or twist wires with your fingers the inspector won t like it and the results won t be that safe and it takes longer and you re more likely to stick a hunk of ga wire through your hand that way don t handle house wire when it s very cold eg below c or f thermoplastic house wire particularly older types become very brittle subject what do i need in the way of tools first there s the obvious a hammer a drill a few screwdrivers both straight and phillips head if you re lucky enough to live in canada or find a source of csa approved devices you need robertson square recess screwdrivers and instead of phillips for drilling a few holes a or spade bit and or electric drill will do if you re doing a lot or are working with elderly lumber we recommend a drill right angle drills are wonderful can be rented and or screw point auger drill bits these bits pull you through so they re much faster and less fatiguing even in year old hardwood timbers screw driver bits are useful for drills expecially if you install your electrical boxes using screws drywall screws work well for stripping wire use a real wire stripper not a knife or ordinary wire cutters don t buy the k mart combo stripper crimper and bottle opener types you should expect to pay to for a good plier type pair it will have sized stripping holes and won t nick or grab the wire it should be easy to strip wire with it one model has a small hole in the blade for forming exact wire loops for screw terminals there are fancier types autostrip cut but they generally aren t necessary and pros usually don t use them a pair of diagonal side cutter pliers are useful for clipping ends in constricted places don t use these for stripping wire you will need linesman pliers for twisting wires for wire nuts you should have a pair of needle nose pliers for fiddling inside boxes and closing loops but it s better to form wire loops with a loop former hole on your wire stripper more accurate if you re using non metallic cable get a cable stripper for removing the sheath or do what some pros do they nick the end of the sheath grab the ground wire with a pair of pliers and simply rip the sheath back using the ground wire as a zipper and cut the sheath off you shouldn t try to strip the sheath with a knife point because it s too easy to slash the insulation on the conductors apparently stanley utility knives fitted with linoleum cutters hooked blades can be used to strip sheath but there is still the possibility that you ll gouge the conductors for any substantial amount of work with armored cable it s well worth your while to invest in a rotary cable splitter us hack saws are tricky to use without cutting into the wire or the insulation three prong outlet testers are a quick check for properly wired outlets about multimeters tell you more but are a lot more expensive and probably not worth it for most people a simple voltage sensor which can detect potential through an insulated wire not supplying any devices is extremely helpful they cost about us at radio shack you should have a voltage detector to check that the wires are dead before doing work on them neon bulb version are cheap and work well if you get more serious a audible alarm type is good for tracing circuits without a helper though i ve been known to lock the drill on and hit breakers until the scream stops for running wires through existing walls you need fish tape often two tapes are needed though sometimes a bent hanger or a length of thin chain will suffice fish tapes can be rented electrical tape lots of it seriously a good and competent wiring job will need very little tape the tape is useful for wrapping dicy insulation in repair work another use is to wrap around the body of outlets and switches to cover the termination screws i don t do this but drywall contractors prefer it to prevent explosions when the drywall knife collides with a live outlet that has no cover plate subject what is ul listing the ul stands for underwriters laboratory it used to be an insurance industry organization but now it is independent and non profit it tests electrical components and equipment for potential hazards when something is ul listed that means that the ul has tested the device and it meets their requirements for safety ie fire or shock hazard it doesn t necessarily mean that the device actually does what it s supposed to just that it probably won t kill you the ul does not have power of law in the u s you are permitted to buy and install non ul listed devices however insurance policies sometimes have clauses in them that will limit their liability in case of a claim made in response to the failure of a non ul listed device furthermore in many situations the nec will require that a wiring component used for a specific purpose is ul listed for that purpose indirectly this means that certain parts of your wiring must be ul listed before an inspector will approve it and or occupancy permits issued subject what is csa approval every electrical device or component must be certified by the canadian standards association before it can be sold in canada implicit in this is that all wiring must be done with csa approved materials they perform testing similar to the ul a bit more stringent except that csa approval is required by law again like the ul if a fire was caused by non csa approved equipment your insurance company may not have to pay the claim in canada there is a branch organization of the ul called ulc ul of canada ulc does not have power of law and seems to be more a liason group between the csa and insurance companies subject are there any cheaper easier to read books on wiring usa the following three books were suggested by our readers residential wiring by jeff markell craftsman books carlsbad ca for isbn practical electrical wiring residential farm and industrial based on the national electrical code ansi nfpa herbert p richter and w creighton schwan mcgraw hill book co wiring simplified h p richter and w c schwan park publishing co try to make sure that the book is based on the latest nec revision which is currently canada p s knight authors and publishes a book called electrical code simplified there appears to be a version published specific to each province and is very tied into the appropriate provincial code it focuses on residential wiring and is indispensible for canadian diy ers it is better to get this book than the cec unless you do a lot of wiring or answer questions on the net it is updated each time the provincial codes are this book is available at all diy and hardware stores for less than c subject inspections how and what why should i get my wiring inspected most jurisdictions require that you obtain a permit and inspections of any wiring that is done amongst other more mundane bureaucratic reasons like insurance companies not liking to have to pay claims a permit and inspections provides some assurance that you your family your neighbors or subsequent owners of your home don t get killed or lose their homes one night due to a sloppy wiring job most jurisdictions have the power to order you to vacate your home or order you to tear out any wiring done without a permit california for instance is particularly nasty about this if fire starts in your home and un inspected wiring is at fault insurance companies will often refuse to pay the damage claims in general the process goes like this you apply to your local inspections office or building department for a permit you should have a sketch or detailed drawing of what you plan on doing this is a good time to ask questions on any things you re not sure of if you re doing major work they may impose special conditions on you require loading calculations and ask other questions at this point they will tell you which inspections you will need if you re installing a main panel you will need to have the panel and service connections inspected before your power utility will provide a connection this is sometimes done by the local power authority rather than the usual inspectors after installing the boxes and wiring but before the insulation walls go up you will need a rough in inspection after the walls are up and the wiring is complete you will need a final inspection subject my house doesn t meet some of these rules and regulations do i have to upgrade in general there is no requirement to upgrade older dwellings though there are some exceptions ie smoke detectors in some cases however any new work must be done according to the latest electrical code also if you do major work you may be required to upgrade certain existing portions or all of your system check with your local electrical inspector subject a word on voltages one thing where things might get a bit confusing is the different numbers people bandy about for the voltage of a circuit one person might talk about v another v or another v these are all in fact exactly the same thing in north america the utility companies are required to supply a split phase volt feed to your house this works out as two v legs additionally since there are resistive voltage drops in the house wiring it s not unreasonable to find v has dropped to v or v has dropped to v by the time the power reaches a wall outlet especially at the end of an extension cord or long circuit run for a number of reasons some historical some simple personal orneryness different people choose call them by slightly different numbers this faq has chosen to be consistent with calling them v and v except when actually saying what the measured voltage will be confusing a bit just ignore it one thing that might make this a little more understandable is that the nameplates on equipment ofen show the lower ie v instead of v value what this implies is that the device is designed to operate properly when the voltage drops that low v is not the same as v v is the voltage between phases of a phase y circuit that is v from neutral to any hot v is the voltage between phases of a phase y circuit that s v from hot to neutral in keeping with v versus v strangeness motors intended to run on v three phase are often labelled as v subject what does an electrical service look like there are logically four wires involved with supplying the main panel with power three of them will come from the utility pole and a fourth bare wire comes from elsewhere the bare wire is connected to one or more long metal bars pounded into the ground or to a wire buried in the foundation or sometimes to the water supply pipe has to be metal continuous to where the main water pipe entering the house watch out for galvanic action conductivity breaks often between copper and iron pipe this is the grounding conductor it is there to make sure that the third prong on your outlets is connected to ground this wire normally carries no current one of the other wires will be white or black with white or yellow stripes or sometimes simply black it is the neutral wire it is connected to the centre tap cec center tap in the nec of the distribution transformer supplying the power it is connected to the grounding conductor in only one place often inside the panel the neutral and ground should not be connected anywhere else otherwise weird and or dangerous things may happen furthermore there should only be one grounding system in a home some codes require more than one grounding electrode these will be connected together or connected to the neutral at a common point still one grounding system adding additional grounding electrodes connected to other portions of the house wiring is unsafe and contrary to code if you add a subpanel the ground and neutral are usually brought as separate conductors from the main panel and are not connected together in the subpanel ie still only one neutral ground connection however in some situations certain categories of separate buildings you actually do have to provide a second grounding electrode consult your inspector the other two wires will usually be black and are the hot wires they are attached to the distribution transformer as well the two black wires are degrees out of phase with each other this means if you connect something to both hot wires the voltage will be volts if you connect something to the white and either of the two blacks you will get v some panels seem to only have three wires coming into them this is either because the neutral and ground are connected together at a different point eg the meter or pole and one wire is doing dual duty as both neutral and ground or in some rare occasions the service has only one hot wire v only service subject what is a circuit inside the panel connections are made to the incoming wires these connections are then used to supply power to selected portions of the home there are three different combinations one hot one neutral and ground v circuit two hots no neutral and ground v circuit two hots neutral and ground v circuit neutral and or two v circuits with a common neutral is used for most circuits supplying receptacles and lighting within your house is usually used for supplying power to major appliances such as stoves and dryers they often have need for both v and v or for bringing several circuits from the panel box to a distribution point is usually for special v motor circuits electric heaters or air conditioners note in the us the nec frequently permits a circuit similar to be used for stoves and dryers namely that there are two hot wires and a wire that does dual duty as neutral and ground and is connected to the frame as well as providing the neutral for v purposes three prong plugs instead of four only for stoves dryers connected to the main panel when connected to most sub panels prong plugs and receptacles are required in our not so humble opinion this is crazy but the nfpa claims that this practice was re evaluated for the nec and found to be safe check your local codes or inquire as to local practice there are restrictions on when this is permissible is usually wired with three conductor wire black for hot white for neutral and bare for grounding and have one hot wire coloured red the other black a bare wire for grounding and in a white wire for neutral you will sometimes see wired with just a black white and ground wire since the white is hot in this case both the nec and cec requires that the white wire be permanently marked at the ends to indicate that it is a live wire usually done with paint nail polish or sometimes electrical tape each circuit is attached to the main wires coming into the panel through a circuit breaker or fuse there are in a few locales circuits that look like or except that they have two bare ground wires some places require this for hot tubs and the like one ground is frame ground the other attaches to the motor this may or may not be an alternative to gfci protection subject grounding versus grounded versus neutral according to the terminology in the cec and nec the grounding conductor is for the safety ground i e the green or bare wire the word neutral is reserved for the white when you have a circuit with more than one hot wire since the white wire is connected to neutral and the grounding conductor inside the panel the proper term is grounded conductor however the potential confusion between grounded conductor and grounding conductor can lead to potentially lethal mistakes you should never use the bare wire as a grounded conductor or white wire as the grounding conductor even though they are connected together in the panel but not in subpanels subpanels are fed neutral and ground separately from the main panel usually in the trade and in common usage the word neutral is used for grounded conductor this faq uses neutral simply to avoid potential confusion we recommend that you use neutral too thus the white wire is always except in some light switch applications neutral not ground subject what does a fuse or breaker do what are the differences fuses and circuit breakers are designed to interrupt the power to a circuit when the current flow exceeds safe levels for example if your toaster shorts out a fuse or breaker should trip protecting the wiring in the walls from melting as such fuses and breakers are primarily intended to protect the wiring ul or csa approval supposedly indicates that the equipment itself won t cause a fire fuses contain a narrow strip of metal which is designed to melt safely when the current exceeds the rated value thereby interrupting the power to the circuit fuses trip relatively fast which can sometimes be a problem with motors which have large startup current surges for motor circuits you can use a time delay fuse one brand is fusetron which will avoid tripping on momentary overloads a fusetron looks like a spring loaded fuse a fuse can only trip once then it must be replaced breakers are fairly complicated mechanical devices they usually consist of one spring loaded contact which is latched into position against another contact when the current flow through the device exceeds the rated value a bimetallic strip heats up and bends by bending it trips the latch and the spring pulls the contacts apart circuit breakers behave similarly to fusetrons that is they tend to take longer to trip at moderate overloads than ordinary fuses with high overloads they trip quickly breakers can be reset a finite number of times each time they trip or are thrown when the circuit is in use some arcing takes place which damages the contacts thus breakers should not be used in place of switches unless they are specially listed for the purpose neither fuses nor breakers limit the current per se a dead short on a circuit can cause hundreds or sometimes even thousands of amperes to flow for a short period of time which can often cause severe damage subject breakers can t i use fuses statistics show that fuse panels have a significantly higher risk of causing a fire than breaker panels this is usually due to the fuse being loosely screwed in or the contacts corroding and heating up over time or the wrong size fuse being installed or the proverbial replace the fuse with a penny trick since breakers are more permanently installed and have better connection mechanisms the risk of fire is considerably less fuses are prone to explode under extremely high overload when a fuse explodes the metallic vapor cloud becomes a conducting path result from complete meltdown of the electrical panel melted service wiring through fires in the electrical distribution transformer and having your house burn down breakers don t do this many jurisdictions particularly in canada no longer permit fuse panels in new installations the nec does permit new fuse panels in some rare circumstances requiring the special inserts to key the fuseholder to specific size fuses some devices notably certain large air conditioners require fuse protection in addition to the breaker at the panel the fuse is there to protect the motor windings from overload check the labeling on the unit this is usually only on large permanently installed motors the installation instructions will tell you if you need one subject what size wire should i use for a amp circuit use gauge wire for a amp circuit you can use gauge wire in most locales for a long run though you should use the next larger size wire to avoid voltage drops gauge is only slightly more expensive than gauge though it s stiffer and harder to work with here s a quick table for normal situations go up a size for more than foot runs when the cable is in conduit or ganged with other wires in a place where they can t dissipate heat easily gauge amps we don t list bigger sizes because it starts getting very dependent on the application and precise wire type subject where do these numbers come from there are two considerations voltage drop and heat buildup the smaller the wire is the higher the resistance is when the resistance is higher the wire heats up more and there is more voltage drop in the wiring the former is why you need higher temperature insulation and or bigger wires for use in conduit the latter is why you should use larger wire for long runs neither effect is very significant over very short distances there are some very specific exceptions where use of smaller wire is allowed the obvious one is the line cord on most lamps don t try this unless you re certain that your use fits one of those exceptions you can never go wrong by using larger wire subject what does mean this is used to describe the size and quantity of conductors in a cable the first number specifies the gauge the second the number of current carrying conductors in the wire but remember there s usually an extra ground wire means gauge two insulated current carrying wires plus bare ground wire usually has a black white and bare ground wire sometimes the white is red instead for v circuits without neutral in the latter case the sheath is usually red too wire usually has a black red white and bare ground wire usually carrying v with neutral subject what is a wirenut marrette marr connector how are they used a wire nut is a cone shaped threaded plastic thingummy that s used to connect wires together marrette or marr connector are trade names you ll usually use a lot of them in diy wiring in essence you strip the end of the wires about an inch twist them together then twist the wirenut on though some wirenuts advertise that you don t need to twist the wire do it anyways it s more mechanically and electrically secure there are many different sizes of wire nut you should check that the wire nut you re using is the correct size for the quantity and sizes of wire you re connecting together don t just gimble the wires together with a pair of pliers or your fingers use a pair of blunt nose linesman pliers and carefully twist the wires tightly and neatly sometimes it s a good idea to trim the resulting end to make sure it goes in the wirenut properly some people wrap the open end of the wirenut with electrical tape this is probably not a good idea the inspector may tear it off during an inspection it s usually done because a bit of bare wire is exposed outside the wire nut instead of taping it the connection should be redone subject what is a gfi gfci a gfci is a ground fault circuit interrupter it measures the current current flowing through the hot wire and the neutral wire if they differ by more than a few milliamps the presumption is that current is leaking to ground via some other path this may be because of a short circuit to the chassis of an appliance or to the ground lead or through a person any of these situations is hazardous so the gfci trips breaking the circuit gfcis do not protect against all kinds of electric shocks if for example you simultaneously touched the hot and neutral leads of a circuit and no part of you was grounded a gfci wouldn t help all of the current that passed from the hot lead into you would return via the neutral lead keeping the gfci happy the two pairs of connections on a gfci outlet are not symmetric one is labeled load the other line the incoming power feed must be connected to the line side or the outlet will not be protected the load side can be used to protect all devices downstream from it thus a whole string of outlets can be covered by a single gfci outlet subject where should gfcis be used the nec mandates gfcis for v a or a single phase outlets in bathrooms kitchens within of the sink garages unfinished basements or crawl spaces outdoors near a pool or just about anywhere else where you re likely to encounter water or dampness there are exceptions for inaccessible outlets those dedicated to appliances occupying fixed space typically refrigerators and freezers and for sump pumps and laundry appliances the cec does not mandate as many gfcis in particular there is no requirement to protect kitchen outlets or most garage or basement outlets basement outlets must be protected if you have a dirt floor garage outlets if they re near the door to outside bathrooms and most exterior outlets must have gfcis even if you are not required to have gfci protection you may want to consider installing it anyway unless you need a gfci breaker see below the cost is low in the u s gfci outlets can cost as little as us costs are a bit higher in canada c evaluate your own risk factors does your finished basement ever get wet do you have small children do you use your garage outlets to power outdoor tools does water or melted snow ever puddle inside your garage subject where shouldn t i use a gfci gfcis are generally not used on circuits that a don t pose a safety risk and b are used to power equipment that must run unattended for long periods of time refrigerators freezers and sump pumps are good examples the rationale is that gfcis are sometimes prone to nuisance trips some people claim that the inductive delay in motor windings can cause a momentary current imbalance tripping the gfci note though that most gfci trips are real if you re getting a lot of trips for no apparent reason you d be well advised to check your wiring before deciding that the gfci is broken or useless subject what is the difference between a gfci outlet and a gfci breaker for most situations you can use either a gfci outlet as the first device on the circuit or you can install a breaker with a built in gfci the former is generally preferred since gfci breakers are quite expensive for example an ordinary ge breaker costs us the gfci model costs us there is one major exception if you need to protect a multi wire branch circuit two or more circuits sharing a common neutral wire such as a canadian style kitchen circuit you ll need a multi pole gfci breaker unfortunately these are expensive the cost can range into the hundreds of dollars depending on what brand of panel box you have but if you must protect such a circuit say for a pool heater you have no choice one more caveat gfci outlets are bulky you may want to use an oversize box when installing them on second thought use large actually deep boxes everywhere you ll thank yourself for it incidentally if you re installing a gfci to ensure that one specific outlet is protected such as a bathroom you don t really have to go to all of the trouble to find the first outlet in the circuit you could simply find the first outlet in the bathroom and not gfci anything upstream of it but protecting the whole circuit is preferred when you install a gfci it s a good idea to use the little ground fault protected stickers that come with it and mark the outlets downstream of the gfci you can figure out which outlets are downstream simply by tripping the gfci with the test button and see which outlets are dead subject what s the purpose of the ground prong on an outlet then apart from their use in electronics which we won t comment on and for certain fluorescent lights they won t turn on without a good ground connection they re intended to guard against insulation failures within the device generally the case of the appliance is connected to the ground lead if there s an insulation failure that shorts the hot lead to the case the ground lead conducts the electricity away safely and possibly trips the circuit breaker in the process if the case is not grounded and such a short occurs the case is live and if you touch it while you re grounded you ll get zapped of course if the circuit is gfci protected it will be a very tiny zap which is why you can use gfcis to replace ungrounded outlets both nec and cec there are some appliances that should never be grounded in particular that applies to toasters and anything else with exposed conductors consider if you touch the heating electrode in a toaster and you re not grounded nothing will happen if you re slightly grounded you ll get a small shock the resistance will be too high but if the case were grounded and you were holding it you d be the perfect path to ground subject why is one prong wider than the other polarization nowadays many two prong devices have one prong wider than the other this is so that the device could rely not guaranteed on one specific wire being neutral and the other hot this is particularly advantageous in light fixtures where the the shell should neutral safety or other devices which want to have an approximate ground reference ie some radios most prong extension cords have wide prongs too this requires that you wire your outlets and plugs the right way around you want the wide prong to be neutral and the narrow one hot most outlets have a darker metal for the hot screw and lighter coloured screw for the neutral if not you can usually figure out which is which by which prong the terminating screw connects to subject what kind of outlets do i need in a kitchen the nec requires at least two amp small appliance circuits for kitchens the cec requires split duplex receptacles outlets must be installed such that no point is more than nec mm cec from an outlet every counter wider than nec or mm cec must have at least one outlet the circuit these outlets are on may not feed any outlets except in the kitchen pantry or dining room furthermore these circuits are in addition to any required for refrigerators stoves microwaves lighting etc non dedicated outlets within of a sink must be protected by a gfci nec only split duplex receptacles are fed with a v circuit the tab is broken on the hot side of the outlet and one hot goes to the upper outlet and the other hot goes to the lower outlet the neutral connects to both outlets through one screw when carrying through to another outlet the neutral must be pigtailed such that removing the outlet or having the neutral connection fall off doesn t cause the neutral to disconnect from downstream outlets subject where must outlets and switches be in bathrooms there must be at least one outlet in each bathroom adjacent to the sink in addition to any outlet that may be incorporated in the light fixture all such outlets must be gfci protected subject what is romex nm nmd what is bx when should i use each romex is a brand name for a type of plastic insulated wire sometimes called non metallic sheath the formal name is nm this is suitable for use in dry protected areas ie inside stud walls on the sides of joists etc that are not subject to mechanical damage or excessive heat most newer homes are wired almost exclusively with nm wire there are several different categories of nm cable bx cable technically known as armored cable or ac has a flexible aluminum or steel sheath over the conductors and is fairly resistant to damage teck cable is ac with an additional external thermoplastic sheath protection for cable in concealed locations where nm or ac cable is run through studs joists or similar wooden members the outer surface of the cable must be kept at least mm cec nec from the edges of the wooden members or the cable should be protected from mechanical injury this latter protection can take the form of metal plates such as spare outlet box ends or conduit note inspector permitted practise in canada suggests that armored cable or flexible conduit can be used as the mechanical protection but this is technically illegal additional protection recommendations these are rules in the canadian codes they are reasonable answers to the vague references to exposed to mechanical damage in both the nec and cec nm cable should be protected against mechanical damage where it passes through floors or on the surface of walls in exposed locations under feet from the floor ie use ac instead flexible conduit wooden guards etc where cable is suspended as in connections to furnaces or water heaters the wire should be protected canadian practise is usually to install a junction or outlet box on the wall and use a short length of ac cable or nm cable in flexible conduit to jump to the appliance stapling nm to a piece of lumber is also sometimes used where nm cable is run in close proximity to heating ducts or pipe heat transfer should be minimized by means of a mm air space or suitable insulation material a wad of fiberglass nm cable shall be supported within mm of every box or fitting and at intervals of no more than m holes in joists or studs are considered supports some slack in the cable should be provided adjacent to each box while fishing cable is technically in violation it is permitted where proper support is impractical conductor nm cable should never be stapled on edge knight also insists on only one cable per staple referring to the workmanship clause but this seems more honoured in the breach cable should never be buried in plaster cement or similar finish cable should be protected where it runs behind baseboards cable may not be run on the upper edge of ceiling joists or the lower edges of rafters where the headroom is more than m whenever bx cable is terminated at a box with a clamp small plastic bushings must be inserted in the end of the cable to prevent the clamps forcing the sharp ends of the armor through the insulation bx is sometimes a good idea in a work shop unless covered by solid wall coverings in places where damage is more likely like on the back wall of a garage you may be required to use conduit a ul or csa approved metal pipe you use various types of fittings to join the pipe or provide entrance exit for the wire service entrances frequently use a plastic conduit in damp places eg buried wiring to outdoor lighting you will need special wire eg cec nmw nec uf nmw looks like very heavy duty nmd you will usually need short lengths of conduit where the wire enters exits the ground see underground wiring section thermoplastic sheath wire such as nm nmw etc should not be exposed to direct sunlight unless explicitly approved for that purpose many electrical codes do not permit the routing of wire through furnace ducts including cold air return plenums constructed by metal sheeting enclosing joist spaces the reason for this is that if there s a fire the ducting will spread toxic gasses from burning insulation very rapidly through the building teflon insulated wire is permitted in plenums in many areas canada appears to use similar wire designations to the us except that canadian wire designations usually include the temperature rating in celsius eg ac versus ac in the us nm b is degrees celcius note local codes vary this is one of the items that changes most often eg chicago codes require conduit everywhere there are very different requirements for mobile homes check your local codes especially if you re doing anything that s the slightest out of the ordinary wire selection table incomplete the real tables are enormous uncommon wire types or applications omitted condition type cec nec exposed concealed dry plastic nmd nm armor ac ac teck exposed concealed damp plastic nmd nmc armor acwu teck exposed concealed wet plastic nmwu armor acwu teck exposed to weather plastic nmwu tw etc armor teck direct earth burial plastic nmwu uf service entrance rwu twu armor ra teck acwu nmwu not for service entrance subject should i use plastic or metal boxes the nec permits use of plastic boxes with non metallic cable only the reasoning is simple with armored cable the box itself provides ground conductor continuity u s plastic boxes don t use metal cable clamps the cec is slightly different the cec never permits cable armor as a grounding conductor however you must still provide ground continuity for metallic sheath the cec also requires grounding of any metal cable clamps on plastic boxes the advantage of plastic boxes is comparatively minor even for non metallic sheathed cable you can avoid making one ground connection and they sometimes cost a little less on the other hand plastic boxes are more vulnerable to impacts for exposed or shop wiring metal boxes are probably better subject junction box positioning a junction box is a box used only for connecting wires together junction boxes must be located in such a way that they re accessible later ie not buried under plaster excessive use of junction boxes is often a sign of sloppy installation and inspectors may get nasty subject can i install a replacement light fixture in general one can replace fixtures freely subject to a few caveats first of course one should check the amperage rating of the circuit if your heart is set on installing half a dozen watt floodlights you may need to run a new wire back to the panel box but there are some more subtle constraints as well for example older house wiring doesn t have high temperature insulation the excess heat generated by a ceiling mounted lamp can and will cause the insulation to deteriorate and crack with obvious bad results some newer fixtures are specifically marked for high temperature wire only you may find in fact that your ceiling wiring already has this problem in which case replacing any devices is a real adventure other concerns include providing a suitable ground for some fluorescent fixtures and making sure that the ceiling box and its mounting are strong enough to support the weight of a heavy chandelier or ceiling fan you may need to install a new box specifically listed for this purpose a x across the ceiling joists makes a good support metal brackets are also available that can be fished into ceilings thru the junction box hole and mounted between the joists there are special rules for recessed light fixtures such as pot lamps or heat lamps when these are installed in insulated ceilings they can present a very substantial fire hazard the cec provides for the installation of pot lamps in insulated ceilings provided that the fixture is boxed in a coffin usually x x made by making a pair of joists high and covering with plywood that doesn t have any insulation yes that s feet long nec rules are somewhat less stringent they require at least clearance between the fixture and any sort of thermal insulation the rules also say that one should not obstruct free air movement which means that a cec style coffin might be worthwhile presumably that s up to the local inspector the cec doesn t actually mandate the coffin per se this seems to be an inspector requirement to make absolutely certain that the fixture can t get accidentally buried in insulation ie if you have insulation blown in later there are now fixtures that contain integral thermal cutouts and fairly large cases that can be buried directly in insulation they are usually limited to watt bulbs and are unfortunately somewhat more expensive than the older types before you use them you should ensure that they have explicit ul or csa approval for such uses follow the installation instructions carefully the prescribed location for the sensor can vary there does not yet appear to be a heat lamp fixture that is approved for use in insulation the coffin appears the only legal approach subject what does it mean when the lights brighten when a motor starts this usually means that the neutral wire in the panel is loose depending on the load balance one hot wire may end up being more than v and the other less than v with respect to ground this is a very hazardous situation it can destroy your electronic equipment possibly start fires and in some situations electrocute you ie some us jurisdictions require the stove frame connected to neutral if this happens contact your electrical authority immediately and have them come and check out the problem note a brief second brightening is sometimes normal with lighting and motors on the same v with neutral circuit a loose main panel neutral will usually show increased brightness far longer than one second in case of doubt get help subject what is phase power should i use it can i get it in my house three phase power has three hot wires degrees out of phase with each other these are usually used for large motors because it is more efficient provides a bit more starting torque and because the motors are simpler and hence cheaper you re most likely to encounter a phase circuit that shows volts between any hot and ground and volts between any two hots the latter shows the difference between a normal v v common neutral circuit which is volts between the two hots there are phase circuits with different voltages bringing in a phase feed to your house is usually ridiculously expensive or impossible if the equipment you want to run has a standard motor mount it is much cheaper to buy a new v or v motor for it in some cases it is possible to run phase equipment on ordinary power if you have a capacitor start unit or use a larger motor as a auto generator these are tricky but are a good solution if the motor is non standard size or too expensive or too big to replace the taunton press book the small shop has an article on how to do this if you must note that you lose any possible electrical efficiency by using such a converter the laws of thermodynamics guarantee that subject is it better to run motors at or theoretically it doesn t make any difference however there is a difference is the amount of power lost in the supply wiring all things being equal a v motor will lose times less power in the house wiring than a v motor this also means that the startup surge loss will be less and the motor will get to speed quicker and in some circumstances the smaller power loss will lead to longer motor life this is usually irrelevant unless the supply wires are more than feet long subject what is this nonsense about hp on v a circuits it is a universal physical law that hp is equal to watts given heating loss power factor and other inefficiencies it is usually best to consider hp is going to need watts a v a circuit can only deliver watts to a motor so it cannot possibly be more than approximately hp given rational efficiency factors hp is more like it some equipment manufacturers sears in particular most router manufacturers in general advertise a hp rating that is far in excess of what is possible they are giving you a stall horsepower or similar that means the power is measured when the motor is just about to stop turning because of the load what they don t mention is that if you kept it in that condition for more than a few seconds hopefully your breaker will trip otherwise the motor will melt it s drawing far more current than it can continuously when comparing motors compare the continuous horsepower this should be on the motor nameplate if you can t find that figure check the amperage rating which is always present subject how do i convert two prong receptacles to three prong older homes frequently have two prong receptacles instead of the more modern three these receptacles have no safety ground and the cabling usually has no ground wire neither the nec or cec permits installing new prong receptacles anymore there are several different approaches to solving this if the wiring is done through conduit or bx and the conduit is continuous back to the panel you can connect the third prong of a new receptacle to the receptacle box nec mainly cec frowns on this practise if there is a copper cold water pipe going nearby and it s continuous to the main house ground point you can run a conductor to it from the third prong run a ground conductor back to the main panel easiest install a gfci receptacle the ground lug should not be connected to anything but the gfci protection itself will serve instead the gfci will also protect downstream possibly also two prong outlets if you do this to protect downstream outlets the grounds must not be connected together since it wouldn t be connected to a real ground a wiring fault could energize the cases of prong devices connected to other outlets be sure though that there aren t indirect ground plug connections such as via the sheath on bx cable the cec permits you to replace a two prong receptacle with a three prong if you fill the u ground with a non conducting goop like caulking compound this is not permitted in the nec subject are you sure about gfcis and ungrounded outlets should the test button work we re sure about what the nec and cec say remember though that your local codes may vary as for the test button there s a resistor connecting the load side of the hot wire to the line side of the neutral wire when you press the test button current through this resistor shows up as an imbalance and trips the gfci this is a simple passive and reliable test and doesn t require a real ground to work if your gfci does not trip when you press the test button it is very probably defective or miswired again if the test button doesn t work something s broken and potentially dangerous the problem should be corrected immediately the instructions that come with some gfcis specify that the ground wire must be connected we do not know why they say this the causes may be as mundane as an old instruction sheet or with the formalities of ul or csa listing perhaps the device was never tested without the ground wire being connected on the other hand ul or csa approval should only have been granted if the device behaves properly in all listed applications including ungrounded outlet replacement one of us called leviton their gfcis are labeled for installation on grounded circuits only the technician was surprised to see that he agreed that the nec does not require it and promised to investigate subject how should i wire my shop as with any other kind of wiring you need enough power for all devices that will be on simultaneously the code specifies that you should stay under of the nominal capacity of the circuit for typical home shop use this means one circuit for the major power tools and possibly one for a dust collector or shop vac use at least gauge wire many power tools have big motors with a big start up surge if you can use amp breakers nec though cec requires standard a receptacles which means you d have to replug all your equipment lights should either be on a circuit of their own and not shared with circuits in the rest of the house or be on at least two separate circuits the idea is that you want to avoid a situation where a blade is still spinning at several thousand rpm while you re groping in the dark for the off switch do install lots of outlets it s easier to install them in the beginning when you don t have to cut into an existing cable it s useful if at least two circuits are accessible at each point so you can run a shop vac or a compressor at the same time as the tool you really want but use metal boxes and plates and maybe even metal sheathed cable you may have objects flying around at high speeds if something goes a bit wrong note that some jurisdictions have a no horizontal wiring rule in workshops or other unfinished areas that are used for working what this means is that all wiring must be run along structural members ie stapled to studs other possible shop circuits include heater circuits v circuits for some large tools and air compressor circuits don t overload circuits and don t use extension cords if you can help it unless they re rated for high currents a coiled extension cord is not as safe as a straight length of wire of the same gauge also the insulation won t withstand as much heat and heat dissipation is the critical issue if your shop is located at some remove from your main panel you should probably install a subpanel and derive your shop wiring from it if you have young children you may want to equip this panel with a cut off switch and possibly a lock if you want to install individual switches to safe particular circuits make sure you get ones rated high enough for example ordinary light switches are not safely able to handle the start up surge generated by a table saw buy horsepower rated switches instead finally note that most home shops are in garages or unfinished basements hence the nec requirements for gfcis apply and even if you know that you d never use one of your shop outlets to run a lawn mower the next owner of your house might have a different idea note fine woodworking magazine often carries articles on shop wiring april is one place to start subject underground wiring you will need to prepare a trench to specifications use special wire protect the wire with conduit or special plastic tubing and possibly lumber don t use creosoted lumber it rots thermoplastic insulation and acts as a catalyst in the corrosion of lead the transition from in house to underground wire is generally via conduit all outdoor boxes must be specifically listed for the purpose and contain the appropriate gaskets fittings etc if the location of the box is subject to immersion in water a more serious style of water proof box is needed and of course don t forget the gfcis the required depths and other details vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction so we suggest you consult your inspector about your specific situation a hint buy a roll of bright yellow tape that says buried power line and bury it a few inches above where the wire has been placed subject aluminum wiring during the s aluminum instead of copper wiring became quite popular and was extensively used since that time aluminum wiring has been implicated in a number of house fires and most jurisdictions no longer permit it in new installations we recommend even if you re allowed to that do not use it for new wiring but don t panic if your house has aluminum wiring aluminum wiring when properly installed can be just as safe as copper aluminum wiring is however very unforgiving of improper installation we will cover a bit of the theory behind potential problems and what you can do to make your wiring safe the main problem with aluminum wiring is a phenomenon known as cold creep when aluminum wiring warms up it expands when it cools down it contracts unlike copper when aluminum goes through a number of warm cool cycles it loses a bit of tightness each time to make the problem worse aluminum oxidises or corrodes when in contact with certain types of metal so the resistance of the connection goes up which causes it to heat up and corrode oxidize still more eventually the wire may start getting very hot melt the insulation or fixture it s attached to and possibly even cause a fire since people usually encounter aluminum wiring when they move into a house built during the s we will cover basic points of safe aluminum wiring we suggest that if you re considering purchasing a home with aluminum wiring or have discovered it later that you hire a licensed electrician or inspector to check over the wiring for the following things fixtures eg outlets and switches directly attached to aluminum wiring should be rated for it the device will be stamped with al cu or co alr the latter supersedes the former but both are safe these fixtures are somewhat more expensive than the ordinary ones wires should be properly connected at least way around the screw in a clockwise direction connections should be tight while repeated tightening of the screws can make the problem worse during the inspection it would pay off to snug up each connection note that aluminum wiring is still often used for the main service entrance cable it should be inspected push in terminals are an extreme hazard with aluminum wire any connections using push in terminals should be redone with the proper screw connections immediately there should be no signs of overheating darkened connections melted insulation or baked fixtures any such damage should be repaired connections between aluminum and copper wire need to be handled specially current canadian codes require that the wire nut used must be specially marked for connecting aluminum to copper the nec requires that the wire be connected together using special crimp devices with an anti oxidant grease the tools and materials for the latter are quite expensive not practical to do it yourself unless you can rent the tool any non rated receptacle can be connected to aluminum wiring by means of a short copper pigtail see above shows reasonable workmanship neat wiring properly stripped not nicked wire etc if when considering purchasing a home an inspection of the wiring shows no problems or only one or two we believe that you can consider the wiring safe if there are signs of problems in many places we suggest you look elsewhere if the wrong receptacles are used you can replace them with the proper type or use pigtails having this professionally done can range from to per receptacle switch you can do this yourself too subject i m buying a house what should i do congratulations but it s generally a good idea to hire an inspector to look through the house for hidden gotchas not just for wiring but plumbing and structural as well if an inspection of the wiring shows no problems or only one or two minor ones we believe that you can consider the wiring safe after any minor problems are fixed if there are signs of problems in many places we suggest you look elsewhere here s some hints on what to look for obvious non code wiring can include zip cord wiring either concealed or nailed to walls hot wiring on the identified neutral conductor without proper marking ungrounded grounding outlets except when downstream of a gfci splices hanging in mid air other than proper knob and tube switched neutrals unsecured romex swinging about like grapevines certain wiring practises that are actually to code or were at one time sometimes reveal diy wiring that may have hidden violations switches that seem to control nothing abandoned perhaps not properly terminated wiring a wall switch that shuts off a group of lights that are separately controlled by other wall switches except when it s really convenient switches and outlets in bizarre locations great numbers of junction boxes without outlets or lamps junction boxes with great numbers of wires going into them wiring that passes through a closet instead of a wall or ceiling backwrapped grounding wires subject what is this weird stuff old style wiring in the years since edison invented electricity several different wiring styles have come and gone when you buy an older home you may encounter some of this stuff this section describes the old methods and some of their idiosyncrasies the oldest wiring system you re likely to encounter is called knob and tube k t it is made up of individual conductors with a cloth insulation the wires are run along side structural members eg joists or studs using ceramic stand offs knobs wire is run through structural members using ceramic tubes connections were made by twisting the wire together soldering and wrapping with tape since the hot and neutral were run separately the wiring tends to be rather confusing a neutral often runs down the centre of each room with taps off to each fixture the hot wire tended to run from one fixture to the next in some cases k t isn t colour coded so the neutral is often the same colour as the hot wires you ll see k t in homes built as late as the s comments on k t the people installing k t were pretty paranoid about electricity so the workmanship tends to be pretty good the wire insulation and insulators tend to stand up very well most k t i ve seen for example is in quite good condition no grounding grounding is usually difficult to install boxes are small receptacle replacement particularly with gfci can be difficult no bushing on boxes either so wiring changes need special attention to box entry sometimes the neutral isn t balanced very well between separately hot circuits so it is sometimes possible to overload the neutral without exceeding the fusing on any circuit building code does not permit insulation in walls that contain k t connection to existing k t from new circuits can be tricky consult your inspector modern wiring practise requires considerably more outlets to be installed than k t systems did since k t tends to be in pretty decent condition it generally isn t necessary to replace it simply because it s k t what you should watch out for is renovations that have interfered with it and be cautious about circuit loading in many cases it s perfectly reasonable to leave existing k t alone and add new fixtures on new circuits using modern techniques after k t they invented multi conductor cable the first type you will see is roughly a cloth and varnish insulation it looks much like the romex cable of the last decade or two this stuff was used in the s and s again no grounding conductor it was installed much like modern wiring its major drawback is that this type of insulation embrittles we ve seen whole systems where the insulation would fracture and fall off at a touch bx cable of the same vintage has similar problems this stuff is very fragile and becomes rather hazardous if the wires become bare this wiring should be left untouched as much as possible whenever an opportunity arises replace it a simple receptacle or switch replacement can turn into a several hour long frustrating fight with electrical tape or heat shrink tubing after this wiring technique the more modern romex was invented it s almost a asphalt impregnated cloth often a bit sticky this stuff stands up reasonably well and doesn t present a hazard and is reasonably easy to work with it does not need to be replaced it should be considered as safe as the modern stuff thermoplastic insulation wire just don t abuse it too much subject where do i buy stuff try to find a proper electrical supply outlet near you their prices will often be considerably better than chain hardware stores or diy centres have better quality materials have wider variety including the odd stuff and have people behind the counter that know what you re talking about cultivate friendly knowledgeable sales people they ll give you much valuable information chris lewis clewis ferret ocunix on ca phone canada psroff info psroff request ferret ocunix on ca ferret list ferret request ferret ocunix on ca
sci.electronics	re what do nuclear site s cooling towers do in article qlg o d q sequoia ccsd uts edu au swalker uts edu au s s walker man writes i really don t know where to post this question so i figured that this board would be most appropriate i was wondering about those massive concrete cylinders that are ever present at nuclear poer sites they look like cylinders that have been pinched in the middle does anybody know what the actual purpose of those things are i hear that they re called cooling towers but what the heck do they cool water nuclear stations don t generate electricity directly from the reactor they use the reactor to generate heat the heat is then used to heat water just as in a conventional oil or coal station and the resultant steam drives the turbines the cooling towers are used to cool the steam and recondense it into water to continue the cycle steve steve mckinty sun microsystems icnc meylan france email smckinty france sun com bix smckinty
sci.electronics	re trace size for a amp supply r g keen rg futserv austin ibm com wrote a quick and dirty way to get higher current carrying capacity on pc board traces for one or few of a kind boards is to strip some romex house wiring cable to bare copper form the bare copper to follow the trace and solder it down and if it s not quick and dirty you can get bus bars that are stamped out with leads that insert in the pc board mark zenier markz ssc wa com markz ssc com
sci.electronics	re looking for a good spice book in article canright convex com canright convex com robert canright writes you might try computer aided circuit analysis using spice by walter banzhaf at bookstores paperback lots of examples dr banzhaf is a teacher is there another book i have this one and don t find it helpfull in learning spice it would make a good reference book but i found it lacking for learning spice are there any others craig you took the bull by the horns craig williamson and stepped in something good craig williamson columbiasc ncr com balki bartokomas craig toontown columbiasc ncr com home perfect strangers
sci.electronics	re how do di boxes work in article lancer apr oconnor wpi edu lancer oconnor wpi edu stephe lewis foskett writes i m doing sound for a couple of bands around here and we need direct input boxes for the keyboards these are the little boxes that take a line level out of the keyboard and transform it into low z for the run to the mixer sadly they cost like or more each and i m going to need like or of them i looked inside one belonging to another band and it looks like just a transformer does anyone have any plans for building them perhaps in anderton s electronic projects for musicians book which i am having a hell of a time tracking down an easy way to solve the problem is to use two op amps to form the balanced low z output but this solution does not provide any galvanic isolation between keyboard or whatever plugged and mixer if no tight requiremets are demanded and some hum snap crackle and pop sounds formed by ground loops can be tolerated the op amp solution is just what you are looking for it is cheap somewhat di box not sure but craig anderton did introduce one di box project in guitar player mag years ago transformerless thanks a lot hope this helps email if more details wanted lancer wpi wpi edu modimidofrsaso mein kopf ist ein labyrinth mein leben ist ein minenfeld heikki paananen heke stekt oulu fi the university of oulu department of electrical engineering just a student finland home is where the heart lies but if the heart lies where is home fish
sci.electronics	re how do di boxes work lancer oconnor wpi edu stephe lewis foskett writes i m doing sound for a couple of bands around here and we need direct input boxes for the keyboards these are the little boxes that take a line level out of the keyboard and transform it into low z for the run to the mixer sadly they cost like or more each and i m going this is indeed one function but more sophisticated ones do level control and ground lift separating the keyboard and mixer earths aswell to need like or of them i looked inside one belonging to another band and it looks like just a transformer does anyone have simple ones are just that a transformer a decent quality audio trans former will cost most of that they are wired thus hot hot input from balanced out to mixer keyboard cold gnd gnd the ground lift switch disconnects the gnd line from the mixer the transformer ratio depends on the precise application but around turns ratio may be a good place to start christopher christopher hicks paradise is a linear gaussian world cmh uk ac cam eng also reported to taste hot and sweaty
sci.electronics	re microphone pre amp low noise phantom powered davidj rahul net david josephson writes in c jjj tf cmcl nyu edu ali cns nyu edu alan macaluso writes i m looking to build a microphone preamp that has very good low noise characteristics large clean gain and incorportates phantom power volts dc for a pzm microphone i m leaning towards a good low cost instrumentation amplifier to maintain the balanced input from the microphone for its good cmrr internal compensation and because i can use a minimal of parts does anyone out there have any experience suggestions advice etc that they d like to pass on i d greatly appreciate it without doing anything really tricky the best i ve seen is the burr brown ina their databook shows a good application of this chip as a phantom power mic pre i ve had very good results from the ssm from pmi part of analogue devices they have also now introduced the ssm which looks good on paper but which i haven t tried yet christopher christopher hicks paradise is a linear gaussian world cmh uk ac cam eng also reported to taste hot and sweaty
sci.electronics	dsp hi is there somebody using a dsp from motorola i am searching for programms concerning audio effects i built a channel mixer adc dsp for audio signals i built some digital filters and echos but now i want to include some effects like harmonic equalizer or chorus the problem is i dont know how these effects work so i cant write a programm so if someone has programms or just knows how such effects work please contact me in the newsgroup or via e mail also if there are books about this problem thanks in advance dwo
sci.electronics	re cable tvi interference in article qevrf t hpscit sc hp com writes as is typical nowadaze you will probably have to do somebody else s job for them although this shouldn t be needed you might take a few minutes to wander around the neighborhood with an ht sniffing for cable leakage on your freq after shutting down your system for a while if you are fortunate enough to the find the hole call the cable company and get the highest link in the chain of command you can explain the problem whose job it really is to maintain their equipment and how much of a nice guy you are to have tracked down their problem for them you may have been lucky and made a new contact that could be helpful in the future you should always try the honey approach before bringing out the jack nicholson impressions this has worked for me in the past with the power company when tring to find loose noisy high voltage lines hardware only once did i have to tell them i was narrowing the problem down to a specific pole by bumping a whole line of poles with my car got em out there that night and they didn t have to meet jack as a disclaimer their method for finding loose hardware was usually whacking the poles with a huge sledgehammer after their high tech arc finding scope couldn t find the problem bill wb rotten zucchini garden here in switzerland the situation is exactly the same the cable tv companies even tried to stop amateur radio in switzerland in the beginning of cable tv they seem to be too stupid to know anything about international frequency conferences or so even today they use the cheapest possible coax running into problems they can t solve anymore as bill noted the only way is to look for a solution with the neighbours before calling for the cable tv guys or the fcc the chance to find neighbours with some sense for reason is by far bigger than with these people especially the first ones as anywhere in an administration people don t like if you tell them to work for the money they get the problem is that radio amateurs don t have the power to put trough their rights in all cases so let s hope they start soon with optical fibers and get out of our freqencies cheers robert hb nby robert ganter universitaet basel i am a fan institut fuer informatik of my plan basel switzerland ganter ifi unibas ch amateurradio hb nby packet hb nby hb eas che eu
sci.electronics	band equalizer i was wondering if anyone out there in net land knew of a simple way to make a band equalizer single channel i need it to accept line inputs tape deck cd player etc and output to the same so input impedance should equal output impedance also since i am driving a line i would need volt p p output final requirement is that i can either control it digitally or control it easily or with few resistors finally if anyone knows of any filter or equalizer chips that might be useful please let me know i have seen a couple of them from national and maxim thanks in advance martin
sci.electronics	re adcom cheap products in article c k bok world std com rogerw world std com roger a williams wrote mdonahue amiganet chi il us mike donahue writes i do not know much about adcom mobil audio products but i do know for a fact that adcom does not make its own high end home audio equptment and that of it comes directly out of tiawan like most high volume manufacturers adcom has most of its pc boards assembled off shore in their case mostly in the far east final assembly and testing are done in east brunswick and of course you older folks on the net will remember way back when adcom got its rave reviews and kudos ca or so their amp and preamp were not only designed here but built here in the usa then they went to mexico and then to taiwan right after their sales skyrocketed because of their stereopile review if you have units that old look for made in stickers on your unit
sci.electronics	receiver system dear netters i want to send emg signals from a running person to a computer each signal is khz wide and there is up to of them on each running person the signal is only to be sent over a few hundred meters it seems to me that the frequency intended for this use is about mhz and about mhz to make the transmitters as light as possible i suppose it will be best the to send the signals in an analog form as this application is rather specialized i do not expect to be able to buy the exact transmitter units i need on the other hand i imagine that i can buy the receiver somewhere i need a multichannel up to channels receiver or complete receivers in some rack system where one can add as many receivers as needed in the particular case do anybody know if there is existing such receiver system on the market baldur rsp is tf bp please respond by email rather than nn
sci.electronics	re telephone on hook off hok ok circuit in article ptolq p e werple apana org au petert zikzak apana org au peter t writes since an on hook line is aprox v and off hook it usually drops below v how about an led in series with a zener say around v on hook led on off hook led off would this work if anyone tries tried it please let me know not recommended your circuit would take too much current when telephone is on hook telephone company does not like it tomi engdahl hut fi lowery s law then niksula hut fi if it jams force it if it breaks it needed replacing anyway this text is provided as is without any express or implied warranty
sci.electronics	re adcom cheap products i want to upgrade my system and was thinking of buying adcom seperates i have heard from alot of people though that adcom sounds great but that the components are made cheaply and therefore won t last very long the time estimates i ve heard are like only or years is this true i own the adcom w power amp as far as i m concerned there s no amp which can touch it at the price range the build quality is very impressive and is far superior to other amps in the price range the whole amplifier is extremely solid with massive heat sinks and very solid casing if you open the amp up there are only very good quality components in and the amp seems to be designed extremely well perfect symmetry for both channels and two transformers one for each channel the binding posts on the back of the amplifier are virtually the same as those on the classe model ie very good i was also sceptical about the amps being built in the far east or where ever but if you look in the amp and see what components they use and how it was designed you can easily see why the amplifiers sound so brilliant i cannot see why people say the amplifier won t last not with those quality components inside sure the amp runs very fairly hot but that s how you get an amp to sound incredibly good my last point i recently auditioned the adcom preamp something like the or something it was two years old and it still sounded like new if you build an amplifier decently like the adcom s they will sound brilliant and last a long time period just my thoughts but then i do own one of adcom s amps alan webber webb itu sun ac za webb itu sun ac za the path you tread is narrow and the drop is sheer and very high the ravens all are watching from a vantage point near by apprehension creeping like a choo train up your spine will the tightrope reach the end will the final couplet rhyme
sci.electronics	high level language compilers for ucontrollers howdy chaps has anybody got any pointers to good c pascal etc compilers for microcontrollers shareware or otherwise my specific need is for c but if the responses are many and varied i will post a summary cheers mike mike abbott mabbot stellenbos csir co za cape town mabbot fred csir co za south africa
sci.electronics	re illusion i missed the first article s on this line due to not having a chance to read the news for a couple of days the idea is commercialized in at least one product the private eye that s a small cube shaped device that the user straps around the head similar to a sweat band there is a boom that comes from the side on which the device is mounted so that it is positioned in front of the user s eye the private eye we had here for evaluation was hercules mda compatible the innards are a row leds that are swept up and down by a galvonometer like movement the result is that the sweeping led bar forms a fused raster there is a virtual image projected in front of the user that the visual system tends to fuse with the background i didn t like the device very much i found it easiest to use if i looked at a blank white wall i had problems with focus tracking if i glanced down to look at my keyboard for an out of the way key the unit also emitted a soft buzz and vibration which i found annoying some people didn t seem to mind the buzz properly used however the image clarity was quite crisp i don t know if the company has taken the technology any further in the last year or two but it did seem to have promise bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown oh usa phone wtm uhura neoucom edu n wed
sci.electronics	re adcom cheap products off shore assembly is one reason that adcom is able to make products that perform as well as those from people like audio research and van alstine and better than hafler and forte but at a much lower cost how do you spell tuna helper i gather by off shore assembly you mean that adcoms are built by blue fin tuna s who are into that squid fi sound i agree on that one my adcom preamp did sound better after installing the famous running the chips class a resistor mod and replacing the metal bottom cover with plexiglass too bad the factory could not make em sound better but better sound unfortunately does not appear to be a priority with adcom else the mods would neither have been necessary nor would they have improved what was already touted as superlative state o d art le sound i really want to hear from all those people out there who have traded up from an sp ii even an sp a to a gfp etc or maybe from those that have dumped their forte amps for a gfa etc
sci.electronics	re adcom cheap products i have an adcom gfa that i got in there certainly isn t anything magic about it the components used are decent but nothing uncommon with respect to consumer grade components the gfa is a nice piece of equipment i m glad that adcom had the guts to not over do the packaging it irks me when i see audiophile oriented equipment whose case and heat sinks probably cost much more and receive more attention than the electronics they are supposed to serve i don t see any big deal about the geographic region in which something is assembled this is especially true for something as low technology as a gfa i d hope that a gfa would still work well after several years except under conditions of extreme abuse there isn t much there to go wrong bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown oh usa phone wtm uhura neoucom edu n wed
sci.electronics	re can microwaves be used to collect xyz coordinates in article apr cc usu edu writes in article c hs j ag bcstec ca boeing com rgc bcstec ca boeing com robert g carpenter writes it seems reasonable to me that a microwave transmitter receiver setup could do the job for example say you want to map an acre lot it d be convenient to place mw transmitters around the lot s periphery either or and then carry a hand held recorder and walk to a point on the lot press a button and the coords of the recorder s location is stored as digital data what s the chance of this working any systems like this already exist what kind of accuracy could you expect what would something like this cost to prototype is there a better alternative than microwaves of course you could develope this system but there is already a system called global positioning satellites it gives three dimensional coordinates anywhere on earth many surveyors use this system with a differential receiver transmitter to get coordinates within centimeters basic receivers with resolution of a few meters on a good day are available from many sources wmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmwmw weston r beal sldf sol ee usu edu sldf cc usu edu electrical engineer utah state university that s the wonderful thing about crayons they can take you to more places than a starship can guinon thought it means global positioning system there are two precision levels one for army applications killing has to be very accurate today and one for civil ones the civil precision is about to m correct me if i m wrong though it may be insufficiant for mapping buildings but there is a way with an additional reference point e g one fixed gps system in a house to get the same high precision as the military version but it gets pretty complicated then if you use a microwave system actually this means some type of radar you need quite a lot of number crunching to get accurate vectorized data out of your original signals so the gps system seems to be the better and running idea for your application there have been discussions in this newsgroup don t know of an address anymore cheers robert hb nby robert ganter universitaet basel i am a fan institut fuer informatik of my plan basel switzerland ganter ifi unibas ch amateurradio hb nby packet hb nby hb eas che eu
sci.electronics	re mysterious tv problem source if the set is direct line powered try checking the likely to be there hybrid regulator module down stream from the volt supply several sets i ve looked at use a volt regulator the regulators have a tendency to short out making the safety circuits shut down the eht supply section try putting the set on a variac or adjustable transformer and lower the ac input voltage to the set to about volts if the set operates nromally then you know you ve got a shorted regulator there are myriad other areas for problems but i ve seen the one above several times also if the set uses one the trippler module may be shot that s fairly common bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown oh usa phone wtm uhura neoucom edu n wed
sci.electronics	shrunken monitor window does anyone know what causes the ever growing black border around the edges of my computer screen the growth has been gradual so i don t know how long it s taken to get this bad i have a dec color monitor maybe five years old and the black border is about inches on the left and right sides about inches on the bottom and negligible at the top of the screen the only controls are brightness knob contrast knob degauss switch and power switch is there anything to be done or are the monitor s days numbered larry hsu larryhsu mtl mit edu
sci.electronics	re dumb question function generator output offset obtain the service manual for the oscilloscope and adjust the internal output offset contorl there is virtual certainty that there is an internal ajustment for the offset control s zero detent position verify that the function generator is properly loaded many generators expect you to supply a ohm load go to a hamfest flea market and scrounge around for a pass through ohm terminator that has a male and female bnc or whatever connector on it the calibrator on my tektronix scope is designed to put out v into a meg load but volt into a ohm load you may also find that loading the output of the function generator also reduces the harmonic distortion build an attenuator you don t have to use and i wouldn t want to use the input impedance of the device under test as part of the voltage divider to drop the input test voltage consider this k ohm gen ohm d u t loaded think about the ratio of k and then think about the accuracy to which you can read voltages on your oscilloscope you can virtually discount the loading of the d u t also you have the millivolt test generator you want good luck bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown oh usa phone wtm uhura neoucom edu n wed
sci.electronics	ic packages hi i am looking for some help in choosing a package for a high speed silicon adc mhz currently being fabricated this is a phd research project and i have to test the chip at speed on a pcb i expect to have roughly packaged circuits and will do dc low speed and high speed testing using different set ups for the test chip i know for sure that a dip will not work the long lead lines have too high an inductance getting a custom made package is too expensive so i am trying to choose between a flatpak and a leadless chip carrier the flatpack would be hard to test since it has to be soldered on to the test setup and i would spend loads of time soldering as i kept changing the test chip the leadless chip carrier sockets also have long lead lines and may not work at high speeds does anyone out there have experience knowledge of this field i would greatly appreciate help any ideas names of companies manufacturing holders sockets packages would help p s the multi layer fancy gaas packages seem like a bit of overkill seema varma
sci.electronics	re what do nuclear site s cooling towers do just to complete that thought the cooling towers cool water that circulates through heat exchangers that recondense the turbine exhaust back into feedwater for the heat exchangers that transfer energy from the reactor s cooling circuit turbine etc reactor c t the reactor has a closed loop circuit to prevent radioactive contamination of the the turbine feedwater the cooling tower is a separate circuit to avoide contamination of the turbine feedwater with atmospheric contamininats etc purifying boiler feedwater is important business at both fossil fired and nuclear generation facilities bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown oh usa phone wtm uhura neoucom edu n wed
sci.electronics	electrical properties of elastomers hello i am looking for carbon doped rubber or an highly elastic material that changes its resistivity or some other electrical property when streched if you could email me any info you may have on material names or companies that make the stuff it would be highly appreaciated thanx jp biomedical engineering louisiana tech university
sci.electronics	re picking up cable tv with an aerial great the first advantage of cheap coax i ve ever heard cheers robert hb nby robert ganter universitaet basel i am a fan institut fuer informatik of my plan basel switzerland ganter ifi unibas ch amateurradio hb nby packet hb nby hb eas che eu
sci.electronics	re what do nuclear site s cooling towers do in article qlg o d q sequoia ccsd uts edu au writes i really don t know where to post this question so i figured that this board would be most appropriate i was wondering about those massive concrete cylinders that are ever present at nuclear poer sites they look like cylinders that have been pinched in the middle does anybody know what the actual purpose of those things are i hear that they re called cooling towers but what the heck do they cool i hope someone can help this is definitely the wrong newsgroup for this but never mind any machine powered by heat motor steam or gasturbine steamengine thermoelement etc work the better the bigger the temperature difference between input and output is because you never get all thermic energy out of the powering medium steam burning gaz etc you have to eliminate the rest of the energy to keep the efficency high a thermal electric power plant coal oil or atomic power works just the same way you heat water steam to power the turbine and generators because you don t get the whole energy out of the steam efficency is never you have to cool down this steam again by something else most power plants use cooling towers for this purpose some type of mega refrigerator others use water of a river ecologically not unobjectionable got it cheers robert hb nby robert ganter universitaet basel i am a fan institut fuer informatik of my plan basel switzerland ganter ifi unibas ch amateurradio hb nby packet hb nby hb eas che eu
sci.electronics	re a question about v so here s my question it seems to me that i d have the same electrical circuit if i hooked the neutral jumper from the neutral over to the ground screw on new three prong grounding outlets what s wrong with my reasoning here first go to the local hardware store and pick up a copy of wiring simplified by h l richter now if your house is wired with metal conduit you don t need a seperate ground wire assuming the house is wired correctly and the pipes are connected to a cold water pipe in your basement the outlets that have a neutral hooked to the ground screw seem wrong anyone else think so back in the s i was a service technician for a cash register company the cash registers used microprocessor circuits and back then they were very susceptible to electrostatic discharge and line noise the biggest problems came from outlets that were not properly grounded in almost every place we went to do an installation we found outlets with the ground connected to the neutral for of the things you can plug into one of these they work fine for our cash registers they were a nightmare line noise tended to scramble the memory periodically with modern electronics using switching power supplies this should be less of a problem even the company i used to work for is no longer recommending a dedicated line with a seperate ground for their equipment i imagine if you check most household wiring you will find that the ground and neutral are connected although not ideal it should be o k for most applications slmr my reality check just bounced the ozone hole bbs a private bulletin board service full service nodes usrobotics k bps gigs files skydive new orleans rime network mail hub usenet newsgroups please route all questions or inquiries to postmaster ozonehole com
sci.electronics	husky programmer bits req d help i m looking for a isa driver card and driver software for a logical devices husky programmer it aint mush good without these can anyone help with either of these items cheers mike
sci.electronics	re receiver system one thing to consider is time division multiplexing the emg channels to reduce the number of rf carriers you have to generate if you multiplexed the emg inputs at khz that would probably be sufficient for most physiology studies you d have hz per channel sampling rate that level of analog multiplexing should be rather easy to accomplish combining a lot of rf carriers is pretty tricky to do without generating intermodulation a system to be carried by a runner is in a fairly harsh environment and would probably be difficult to keep balanced a commercial hand held transciever could probably be employed with a little modification to accomodate widening the bandwidth obviously this has to be done in accordance with whatever laws govern the use of transeivers in your location bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown oh usa phone wtm uhura neoucom edu n wed
sci.electronics	casio sf serial link the casio lectric diary has a wire serial interface with param setting like rs for which one get a magic but expensive cable to connect to a pc does anyone know the spec of this interface e g it needs inverting and boosting from cmos signals to match rs lines chris malcolm cam uk ac ed aifh department of artificial intelligence edinburgh university forrest hill edinburgh eh ql uk dod
sci.electronics	re a question about vac outlet wiring in article cmkrnl com jeh cmkrnl com writes in article apr ecsvax uncecs edu crisp ecsvax uncecs edu russ crisp writes so here s my question it seems to me that i d have the same electrical circuit if i hooked the jumper from the neutral over to the ground screw on new three prong grounding outlets what s wrong with my reasoning here what you can do if you want three prong outlets without additional wiring is to use a gfci outlet or breaker but the outlet will be cheaper in fact depending on where you are putting your new outlet s a gfci may be required you still need to supply a proper ground for a ground fault circuit interrupter so rewiring is still a part of this job however the ground may be connected to a local earth ground rather than back at the breaker box as jamie said gfci devices are required by code in a number of places most notably bathrooms and outside the house i do suggest the use of gfci outlets rather than the breakers you will end up with much less headaches noise pickup in long cable runs is sometimes enough to cause frequent tripping of the breakers gfci devices do save lives if you decide to install them be sure to check them regularly using the test button running the family business electrical supplies and lighting for many years i have seen too many seasoned electricians fried because they forgot to double check their common sense list please exercise caution gary gendel vice president current consulting assignment genashor corp mentor graphics corporation piney woods drive independence boulevard belle mead nj warren nj phone phone fax email garyg warren mentorg com
sci.electronics	chip chipset for code barcode distribution usa reply to lihan ccwf cc utexas edu while i m on the net bugging everyone is there such a thing as a chip or chipset to decode code barcode i ask for a couple of reasons mainly i want a reasonably compact encoding scheme to write information on magstripe cards and code appears to be about right if the right way to do it is something else and it s reasonably easy can someone let me know i might not get a chance to reply too quickly to this or my earlier post but i ll get to them within a couple days i think thanx everyone bgb lihan ccwf cc utexas edu
sci.electronics	radio shack battery of the month club radio shack has canceled their battery of the month club does anyone know why they say they ll honor existing cards in customer hands but no new cards will be issued don montgomery donrm sr hp com
sci.electronics	re what do nuclear site s cooling towers do s s walker man swalker uts edu au wrote i really don t know where to post this question so i figured that this board would be most appropriate i was wondering about those massive concrete cylinders that are ever present at nuclear poer sites they look like cylinders that have been pinched in the middle does anybody know what the actual purpose of those things are i hear that they re called cooling towers but what the heck do they cool i hope someone can help during the nuclear fission reaction the uranium fuel can get hot enough to melt when this happens the liquid uranium is pumped to the cooling tower where it is sprayed into the air contact with the cool outside air will condense the mist and it will fall back to the cooling tower floor there it is collected by a cleaning crew using shop vacs and is then reformed into pellets for reactor use the next day cooling towers are a lot taller than they really need to be power companies are forced to make them that tall by some enviromental law that requires the raw uranium emisions to be held to under this law is now under attack by lawyers arguing that the should be measured at the edge of the property rather than the edge of the cooling tower eliminating this law will save power companies thousands of dollars in concrete costs for new nukes john eaton hp vcd johne
sci.electronics	ungrounded gfcis was re a question about vac outlet wiring in article qmisf odp sdl warren mentorg com garyg warren mentorg com writes what you can do if you want three prong outlets without additional wiring is to use a gfci outlet or breaker but the outlet will be cheaper in fact depending on where you are putting your new outlet s a gfci may be required you still need to supply a proper ground for a ground fault circuit interrupter oddly enough you don t at least according to the wiring faq that is regularly posted on misc consumers house a gfci senses discrepancies between the live and neutral wire currents and cuts them both off if a discrepancy is found no ground connection is needed for it to function michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
sci.electronics	re looking for a good spice book in c gia x acsu buffalo edu neil b gandler v mb k ubvmsb cc buffalo edu wrote i am an electrical engineering student and its a must that i get familiar with spice i have been using it and getting used to it but it would be great to have a good reference manual that explains everything in an organized and concise i current have a guide to circuit simulation analysis using spice i feel it has the information is just randomly placed in the book and its not easy to look up small things when you just need a good reference book i would appreciate any info thanks there is a postscript manual at ic berkeley edu in pub spice um f ps directory about kbytes pages juhan poeldvere es qx juhan chem ut ee tartu university dept of chemistry fax jakobi st ee tartu estonia via stockholm voice
sci.electronics	sc sa specs hi could some kind soul post me the max power voltage current ratings of sc and sa transistors their conductance types and pinouts they are used in the sweep portion of a tv set thanks in advance juhan poeldvere es qx juhan chem ut ee tartu university dept of chemistry fax jakobi st ee tartu estonia via stockholm voice
sci.electronics	polaroid range finder interference help we have a setup with with polaroid transducers and rangefinders we would like to fire these three at a time with about ms between firings the three that are being fired do not fire in the same direction to further explain the situation assume we are firing sonars a b c ms apart each other we should normally see an echo on a that corresponds to the distance however sonar a detects the init line of sonar b the detection is actually through the transducer of sonar a we can see a very faint khz signal on the transducer exactly at the time the init line of sonar b is activated we feel that there is some ground coupling that is causing this interference we came to this conclusion since we are using a separate power supply for sonars b and c has anyone else had any problems with these particular units and this type of experience your suggestions for remedies will be greatly appreciated caglan m aras aras eceris ece ncsu edu ece department ph north carolina state university fx raleigh nc
sci.electronics	single chip receiver for fsk my next project is to come up with an if detector module for fast to kb sec packet radio use no fancy modulation scheme just wide fsk for use at or mhz i m a bit familiar with the motorola chip but i wonder if there are newer designs that might work at higher input frequencies my goal is to come up with an inexpensive design for a receiver back end with if input on one end and an fsk demondulator on the other i m particularly interested in ways to use a higher if than do any current chips work up to say mhz with internal downconversion so a normal if filter can be used any suggestions john john r ackermann jr law department ncr corporation dayton ohio john ackermann daytonoh ncr com packet radio ag v n acv oh tcp ip ag v ag v ampr
sci.electronics	re history question in article kazel uiuc edu kazel uiuc edu mitch kazel writes sorry if this isn t the correct news group but a colleague of mine is trying to find out when the first public use of electronic voice amplification was i e a p a system any reference would be appreciated please reply via e mail mitch kazel n hdq internet kazel uiuc edu this is vague so i am posting it in case anyone else knows more i recall reading of a phonograph which used mechanical amplification compressed air was squirted out of a valve which was controlled by the pickup the result was noisy and distinctly lo fi but much louder than a conventional phonograph it tended to wear the disks out pretty quickly though paul paul johnson paj gec mrc co uk tel ext these ideas and others like them can be had gec marconi research is not for each from any reputable idealist responsible for my opinions
sci.electronics	thermal fuse supplier wanted i have a thermal fuse from a apple laserwriter ii power supply made by cannon that i need to replace the fuse is not the standard tubular thermal fuse like those found in hair driers etc but is a rectangular plastic package much like a transistor or diode it is about x x with both leads coming out of one of the x sides i have been told that it was made by miti a asian company but i can find no information as to a supplier this fuse is rated at a c does anyone have a source for this fuse i only need or so which means that the manufacturer wouldn t even want to talk to me let alone deal with me please advise via e mail thanks pat i like boats and bicycles they re healthier than valium pat horne network manager shop supervisor hardware guru cs dept university of texas austin tx usa voice fax uucp cs utexas edu horne
sci.electronics	re network the same folks now have out lbl little big lan for i think you get it for if you already own network lbl works with arcnet parallel ports and serial ports in any combination for up to or so nodes no flames please but i picked up this discussion a bit late and i am really curious what exactly is the network something to hack together n serial cables something with n serial drivers thanks pat
sci.electronics	tdr plug in if anyone out there has an hp series scope or mainframe i have the tdr plug in the i believe for it and have no need to keep it interested e mail me dave medin phone w ssd networking h intergraph corp m s gd internet dtmedin catbyte b ingr com huntsville al uucp uunet ingr b catbyte dtmedin everywhere you look at least around my office the opinions expressed here are mine or those of my machine
sci.electronics	emulator pods a surplus dealing buddy of mine came up with two emulator pods hp c for hp development station target processor dip head does not include board that plugs into the applied microsystems c pod lcc head if you have an interest in either let me know they look to be in excellent condition he doesn t know what to do with them which may mean that they ll be cheap dave medin phone w ssd networking h intergraph corp m s gd internet dtmedin catbyte b ingr com huntsville al uucp uunet ingr b catbyte dtmedin everywhere you look at least around my office the opinions expressed here are mine or those of my machine
sci.electronics	re help how to construct home built battery for rd grade sci report dean anneser anneser pwa b uucp wrote my yr old son has signed up to do a science report on batteries i was wondering if anyone could provide me with some information as to how to construct a home built battery in my grade school days i remember seeing the ice cube tray version but i don t remember what to use as a good electrolyte or what the easily obtainable metals were thank you in advance dean w anneser pratt whitney aircraft computer system specialist m s desk fax main st ooo v uucp uunet pwa b anneser east hartford ct live to ride internet anneser pwfire pweh utc com one test result is worth one thousand expert opinions wernher von braun dean w anneser pratt whitney aircraft computer system specialist m s desk fax main st ooo v uucp uunet pwa b anneser east hartford ct live to ride the simplest one is easy take a lemon or other citrus type fruit and stick a pair of metal strips into it for the contacts the two strips must be of disimelar metals like copper and zinc then connect a voltmeter to the contacts and read the voltage bill xpresso uucp bill vance bothell wa rwing xpresso bill you listen when i xpresso i listen when uuxpresso
sci.electronics	re in article apr serval net wsu edu rwilley eecs wsu edu ronald willey cs writes the supra accelerator that is mentioned in one of the pervious articles is not or based it runs on a at mhz and the design they are using is very simple if you were referring to the a exteranal model hmm i don t think you and i are thinking of the same thing i was the original poster btw the accelerator that i m talking about almost certainly uses a hc according to the footnotes in the supra ad it only costs list so i really doubt if it has a mhz inside it s called the supra or supra turbo there s an external a model and an internal a model btw does anyone know if a mhz hc exists griff miller griff miller waii com use this for email my opinions are mine not western s dear friend do not imitate what is evil but what is good anyone who does what is good is from god anyone who does evil has not seen god john
sci.electronics	re a question about vac outlet wiring in article apr cmkrnl com jeh cmkrnl com writes in article apr ecsvax uncecs edu crisp ecsvax uncecs edu russ crisp writes i m considering modernizing some old wiring in my home and i need a little advice on outlet wiring several outlets are the old two prong type without the ground naturally the wire feeding these outlets is without the ground wire i noticed at the fusebox that some circuits have the with ground and that on these circuits the ground wire was tied to the same bus as the neutral white wire they are supposed to be connected together at the breaker panel but nowhere repeat nowhere else well almost there are strange exceptions for things like sub panels jamie hanrahan kernel mode systems san diego ca internet jeh cmkrnl com uucp uunet cmkrnl jeh cis not even in sub panels the only place the neutral should be connected to the ground is in a service disconnect in your house the main panel serves as the service disconnect sub panles in your garage or workshop for example must maintain seperate neutral and ground busses because they are not service disconnect equipment steve woodard kd kq not a licensed electrician but i can read the nec book my brother is though
sci.electronics	re exploding tv in article qk hj qos vtserf cc vt edu prasad vtaix cc vt edu prasad ramakrishna writes why would the picture tube explode or even smoke it s not the picture tube more likely the flyback emerson can t admire han prasad prasadr vtvm cc vt edu
sci.electronics	re making copy of a video tape victor inqmind bison mb ca victor laking writes you are experiencing what is called macrovision it is the protection that they use on the video tapes there are two ways around this that i know of first of all you can try using a different vcr to copy onto it is the input of the vcr that reacts to the protection so sometimes just switching the two vcrs around will take care of it some models just don t react to it does this also affect the viewing of tapes i have had problems with a couple of rented tapes they were virtually unviewable i fiddled with the tuning tracking and vertical hold but it was no good
sci.electronics	re beam robot olympic games next week in toronto does anybody know if there is a mailing list or newsgroup for power systems and related areas thanks luis g perez lperez eecs wsu edu
sci.electronics	re what to do with old k simms jhaines eniac seas upenn edu jason haines writes i was wondering if people had any good uses for old k simms so if you have an inovative use or want to buy some simms i would be very interested in hearing about it about a month ago there was a photo posted on alt binaries pictures misc of a inch northern pike which had been caught on a lure made of k simms gordon s hlavenka cgordon vpnet chi il us vote straight ticket procrastination party dec rd
sci.electronics	motorola mc and mc let me try sending this message again i botched up the margins the first time sorry bout that does anyone out there know of any products using motorola s neuron r chips mc or mc if so what are they and are they utilizing standard network variable types snvt ted van den heuvel heuvel neptune iex com kx p
sci.electronics	re trace size for a amp supply acollins uclink berkeley edu andy collins writes how thick do i need to make a pcb trace for amps of current and does anybody have any other thoughts on the process what kind of pcb to use materials thickness of copper any advice graciously accepted in four replies i ve seen no hard numbers so here goes for traces on the outside not inner layers expect in oz copper at amps the following temperature rises versus width this is from sams reference data for engineers seventh edition pg which claims in turn to be from mil std c width temp rise inches degrees c at amps the rise for the width is only about degrees power goes as square of the current plus the copper resistance goes up as temperature goes up certainly mm traces should be ample for what you want to do and ounce copper almost cuts the required width in half i d do oz at about width myself i think given that the rated current is amps and the is a transient or fault condition there s another question will the voltage drop be low enough but you should be able to figure this one out with wire tables or just the resistivity of copper keep traces short and use separate sensing traces where appropriate as mentioned by another poster
sci.electronics	re looking for mhz spread spectrum modules butts shocker ee twsu edu ronald w butts jr writes i am looking for suppliers of mhz spread spectrum radio modules i need to implement a two way audio band link essentially the guts of a cordless mhz phone is what i want this isn t exactly audio but take a look in rf design magazine april for the article a robust signaling technique for part rf control netowrk applications page sources of parts are mentioned in the same issue is an article that features a chipset for the digital european cordless telecommunications standard
sci.electronics	re a question about vac outlet wiring crisp ecsvax uncecs edu russ crisp writes so here s my question it seems to me that i d have the same electrical circuit if i hooked a jumper from the neutral over to the ground screw on new three prong grounding outlets what s wrong with my reasoning here may i respectfully suggest you not do this the ground is supposed to be a protective ground and though what you suggest looks good on paper it s dangerous to rely on the same wire for power and protection it d never meet code and if you now own the property and later sell it you may end up with liabilities you don t want and if you don t now own it well there s a wiring faq that i think addresses this i believe an alternative is use of a gfci but i m really not sure what current code allows in this area the gfci senses alternate unwanted current paths and doesn t rely on a specific protective ground wire at least not beyond the gfci in the protected circuit gfci breakers are available but expensive
sci.electronics	re single chip receiver for fsk john ackermann x jra law daytonoh ncr com wrote my next project is to come up with an if detector module for fast to kb sec packet radio use no fancy modulation scheme just wide fsk for use at or mhz i m a bit familiar with the motorola chip but i wonder if there are newer designs that might work at higher input frequencies my goal is to come up with an inexpensive design for a receiver back end with if input on one end and an fsk demondulator on the other i m particularly interested in ways to use a higher if than do any current chips work up to say mhz with internal downconversion so a normal if filter can be used any suggestions john what you describe is very close to what i built and described in the th arrl computer network conference proceedings i built watt fsk transceivers at mhz they are essentially double conversion transverters with digital mod and demod at mhz the receiver uses the mc which is the same fsk receiver chip i used previouslyu in the mbps ghz data link i first published in ham radio and which is now also in the arrl handbook the mc which includes a vhf converter section could also be used at these speeds there is a newer and perhaps slightly improved design of this the mc if i remember rightly while using this would have let me reduce the external if count on receive it didn t really offer all that much help on transmit so i didn t bother with it the radios i built were first designed and built for kbps in a mhz channel but later reduced to half that these kbps radios actually have done quite well in across the bench tests at kbps and speed is pretty much a function of filter design handling the data stream is another matter entirely some of the existing radios are currently deployed on hilltops in a beacon test mode while there is not yet end end two way data flow due to lack of resources to debug software for the digital hardware mio also shown in the cnc proceedings data is perfect copy at n gn even though the data clock is currently at about half speed the a kbytes of the test text chapter of isaiah takes only a little over of a second i ve been hoping that someone would get interested enough to step in and get involved in writing code to make the whole thing usable borland ide environment with remote debugging possible as mentioned in the proceedings but to date a couple of us have been on our own and running low on resources of time money and energy if anyone in the sf bay area wants to check it out there is also a cw id after the text on the mark side at mhz from beacons on sonoma mtn and black mtn overlooking si valley the antenna is horizontally polarized i guess in retrospect my suggestions are that this is a fairly costly approach if the radios are intended for users rather than backbones and you might want to carefully consider your target if you can t arrange your paths such that you have complete line of sight i think you ll want to address the inter symbol interference caused by multipath and probably link c n budgets if paths are very far from los for more details see the th cnc i m currently working on a spread spectrum direct conversion design to address some of these problems i d be glad to help as i can with any design problems glenn elmore n gn n gn k mc amateur ip glenn santarosa ampr org internet glenne sr hp com
sci.electronics	tdr plug in i have an hp tdr plug in for an hp series scope or mainframe that i m never going to use no scope any more if you re interested in it please let me know price probably real cheap this notice may have appeared once before i posted and it never showed up on our local server dave medin phone w ssd networking h intergraph corp m s gd internet dtmedin catbyte b ingr com huntsville al uucp uunet ingr b catbyte dtmedin everywhere you look at least around my office the opinions expressed here are mine or those of my machine
sci.electronics	tv reception heelllppp hello i just canceled my support of the cable regime and i would like to at least pick up the networks and nbc i do not have tons of money nor even a few pounds so what i am looking for is the best solution for reception for under dollars i have seen modules that you plug into your wall outlet that supposedly make your entire house an antenna i have to admit even with my limited knowledge of wavelength and aerial reception this seems dubious in its claims for excellent reception at best i ll try anything though if it works i am in a non mountainous area approximately miles from the transmitting stations which are pretty large montgomery alabama pop and colombus goergia pop any recommendations of products brand names prices and company info catalog ordering numbers addresses etc thank you in advance paul sylvester shanley pshanley humsci auburn edu voice
sci.electronics	heavy duty antenna simulation software i would be interested in hearing from anyone who knows of good software for antenna simulation particularly in source form suitable for unix workstations though good pc software would also be of interest i m aware of the numerous mininec mutations and have been using mn for some time now i m primarily interested in hf vhf and low uhf mhz designs mostly wire antennas but for thick wires and mesh surfaces as well as for your basic thin wire assumption is anything interesting happening with nec itself i ve seen a version that was mutilated to run sort of under microsoft fortran but i m not sure how many new and improved versions of the code might be out there somewhere i d also be interested in non nec derivatives the ones i ve seen have been aimed at microwave applications but if there is something out there useful at the lower frequencies i d like to know about it thanks don rice e mail ddr flux isr alaska edu internet geophysical institute fnddr alaska bitnet university of alaska flux ddr span fairbanks ak phone loran n e
sci.electronics	re ic packages in article apr sol ctr columbia edu seema madvlsi columbia edu seema varma writes hi i am looking for some help in choosing a package for a high speed silicon adc mhz currently being fabricated this is a phd research project and i have to test the chip at speed on a pcb i expect to have roughly packaged circuits and will do dc low speed and high speed testing using different set ups for the test chip i know for sure that a dip will not work the long lead lines have too high an inductance getting a custom made package is too expensive so i am trying to choose between a flatpak and a leadless chip carrier the flatpack would be hard to test since it has to be soldered on to the test setup and i would spend loads of time soldering as i kept changing the test chip the leadless chip carrier sockets also have long lead lines and may not work at high speeds does anyone out there have experience knowledge of this field i would greatly appreciate help any ideas names of companies manufacturing holders sockets packages would help p s the multi layer fancy gaas packages seem like a bit of overkill seema varma you didn t mention whether or not cost is an issue where exactly are you running mhz the digital side ttl ecl we run mhz and mhz all over our ic test equipment all day long in the ecl domain and we use dip s along with plcc s mil and mil pitch pin qfp s to name a few i don t see a problem in packaging as long as you adhere to sound engineering practices a good source of information is motorola s mecl system design handbook the latest ed is dated that is considered to be one of the bibles in high speed design the very fact that you need to build a test fixture means you re most likely going to need a socket it in itself has far more inductance per pin than the package you are testing not to mention any impedance discontinuities i don t see the big concern over the packaging because it probably isn t going to make that much difference if you re trying to get ttl to run at mhz have fun ttl was never designed to run in a mhz environment aaron p s my opinions have nothing to do with my company the standard disclaimer applies
sci.electronics	re adcom cheap products in article apr hippo ru ac za webb itu webber ah writes stuff deleted i was also sceptical about the amps being built in the far east or where ever but if you look in the amp and see what components they use and how it was designed you can easily see why the amplifiers sound so brilliant good point also i wouldn t be surprised that the components they use off shore are of inferior quality as long as it was properly designed and robust premium components are used it shouldn t matter where it is assembled i cannot see why people say the amplifier won t last not with those quality components inside sure the amp runs very fairly hot but that s how you get an amp to sound incredibly good an amp that runs hot has no bearing on how it s gonna sound the amp you have probably is running class a the whole day actually i d be wary of excessively hot amps cauz even though the components inside may be rated to run that way excessive heat will dramatically shorten the life of any electronic component regardless of quality in fact an amp that does run hot to the touch is because either the engineer or manufacturer of that amp wanted to skimp on heatsinking or cooling to save costs hmmmmm aaron
sci.electronics	re what do nuclear site s cooling towers do in article c l x kj vcd hp com johne vcd hp com john eaton writes s s walker man swalker uts edu au wrote during the nuclear fission reaction the uranium fuel can get hot enough to melt when this happens the liquid uranium is pumped to the cooling tower where it is sprayed into the air nonsense first the uranium fuel is sealed in zirconium alloy cylinders which don t melt in any circumstances short of major failure of the power plant second the primary water that circulates inside the reactor core is never pumped into the cooling tower it s the secondary water cycle that goes through the cooling tower third liquid uranium would burst into flame on contact with air contact with the cool outside air will condense the mist and it will fall back to the cooling tower floor there it is collected by a cleaning crew using shop vacs and is then reformed into pellets for reactor use the next day cleaning crew working in a mist of uranium this is a toxic heavy metal even if it weren t radioactive shouldn t there be some smileys here or frowneys john whitmore
sci.electronics	fluke scopemeter has anybody out there used tested these new fluke scopemeters how do they compare to a low end tectronix oscilloscope are there any big drawbacks about these handheld scopes when compared to the benchtop scopes of the same price range any info on the fluke scopemeters would be greatly appreciated thanks bob freire rsf houxa att com
sci.electronics	re tv reception heelllppp at miles a conventional set of tv antennas on a pole one aimed at each transmitter location should work well rabbit ears inside the house are probably not adequate gadgets to plug into your house wiring are even worse at vhf you don t want a big antenna you want a resonant antenna michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
sci.electronics	optoisolator interfacing questions i am interfacing some simple circuits that run on v to my cpu board which runs at v the optoisolator is a n on the led side i put the signal i want through a k resistor to the base of a n on the transistor side i tie my cpu input line to the collector which has a pull up resistor of k it functions ok but seems very slow i can detect pulses that occur at about khz but not much faster isn t the rise fall time of this device something like us i should be able to detect my target of khz but i can t get khz this is done using wire wrap and the wires going to the cpu and to the test pin are about inches long but i m not doing anything high speed in the art of electronics it mentions tying the base of the phototransistor to ground through a resistor to improve the speed is that what i need to do how do i calculate the resistor value paul malenfant pmalenfa kitkat webo dg com
sci.electronics	pinout needed for til i ve recently picked up some til display chips but i can t find any information on them it seems they are no longer made by ti and i don t have an old enough data book it appears to have a dot matrix led display capable of showing one hex digit it is in a pin dip package but pins and are not present if you have any information on this part pinout power requirments functions please send me e mail thank you gary segal motorola inc segal oscar rtsg mot com cellular infrastructure division we are standing here only to gaze at the wind
sci.electronics	pads model of a hc has anyone done a model of the pin version of the hc it doesn t seem to be too big a job but if someone else has already done it many thanks ken martin
sci.electronics	re need help with car stereo in article qih ho usenet ins cwru edu ae cleveland freenet edu paul simundza writes my friend has a nice alpine car stereo and it only has channels but one of them does not work it does not put out any current or voltage at all is that channel therefore blown i then shut the radio off and ran continuity into the two speaker ouputs of the channel and it charged and discharged so i know the wires just aint bad this probably only tells you that the dc blocking capacitor that s in series between the one chip single ended audio amp and the speaker terminal is there any ideas open it up and look for the power amp ics they ll be fairly obvious replace the one connected to the dead output also how would i locate where the signal of the radio tape unit is before it gets amplified because then couldn t i hook up rca outputs to that signal so then he could just use a little amplifier well one thing you should do is poke around the terminals of the power amp chips use a probe with a m resistor like a scope probe connected to the input of a small audio amp w speaker if you find line level input to both chips one of the chips is bad and can probably replaced pretty easily if you want to pick off a near line level signal suitable for feeding to an outboard amp the outer legs of the volume control pot will often be good enough this is before the volume control and usually before the tone and balance controls too if you take off from the center and ground legs of the volume pot this will be after the volume control but again probably before the other controls if the unit is a modern type with an electronic volume control chip you should probably forget the whole thing jamie hanrahan kernel mode systems san diego ca internet jeh cmkrnl com uucp uunet cmkrnl jeh cis
sci.electronics	anyone know about data i o device proggers i keep finding these programmers in local junk shops this may mean that they are indeed junk but i d like to hear from anyone else that may have met up with them the basic device is a data i o a universal programmer and the usual pod is a logicpak a vo with a a programming tester adapter i d really like to hear from anyone who knows whether these monsters are worth bothering with all i want to do is blast palce v s ideas folks mike
sci.electronics	re history question others said early pa i recall reading of a phonograph which used mechanical amplification compressed air was squirted out of a valve which was controlled by the pickup the result was noisy and distinctly lo fi but much louder than a conventional phonograph it tended to wear the disks out pretty quickly though an now deceased prof told us willing students about a project he had worked on during wwii they needed a mega power pa with very clear audio quality the purpose was to bellow at refugees from aircraft their solution was a giant compressed air source and a horn with parallel shutters worked by a small audio system i think he said it worked very well thus the war dept cancelled the project a host is a host from coast to coast wb foz skybridge scl cwru edu no one will talk to a host that s close linux unless the host that isn t close pob is busy hung or dead
sci.electronics	re ic packages in article apr sol ctr columbia edu seema madvlsi columbia edu seema varma writes getting a custom made package is too expensive so i am trying to choose between a flatpak and a leadless chip carrier the flatpack would be hard to test since it has to be soldered on to the test setup and i would spend loads of time soldering as i kept changing the test chip the leadless chip carrier sockets also have long lead lines and may not work at high speeds does anyone out there have experience knowledge of this field i would greatly appreciate help any ideas names of companies manufacturing holders sockets packages would help check with kyocera america inc prime park way suite natick ma they are one of the largest manufacturers of ic packaging in the world it sounds like you would be a good candidate for wafer probing or at least ic probing to test performance hp cascade microtech and tektronix should be able to help you here one note testing at high frequency accurately can be an expensive business andrew karanicolas mit microsystems technology laboratory ankleand mtl mit edu
sci.electronics	re exploding tv others said why would the picture tube explode or even smoke naw it was the penguin on top of the set that exploded a host is a host from coast to coast wb foz skybridge scl cwru edu no one will talk to a host that s close linux unless the host that isn t close pob is busy hung or dead
sci.electronics	re how do di boxes work in article lancer apr oconnor wpi edu lancer oconnor wpi edu stephe lewis foskett writes i m doing sound for a couple of bands around here and we need direct input boxes for the keyboards these are the little boxes that take a line level out of the keyboard and transform it into low z for the run to the mixer sadly they cost like or more each and i m going to need like or of them i looked inside one belonging to another band and it looks like just a transformer does anyone have any plans for building them each don t bother trying to make one yourself just shop around a little i ve found dod brand di boxes for as cheap as each you can get higher end ones for more but for pa use for bands i wouldn t bother making one yourself might work but getting a sturdy enough enclosure might be hard they re made of heavy guage metal since they re always on the floor being kicked around a lot for any additional questions on this topic you might want to post to rec audio pro lukas zahas lzahas bu edu
sci.electronics	radio shack voice recognition chips hi there i have a friend who d like to get a hold of a bunch of those simple voice recognition chips that radio shack used to sell and no longer does if anybody knows of a source for these please e mail me i ll forward the responses to him thanks joel kolstad
sci.electronics	switch mode power supply is there a typical component or set of components that are at fault when a switch mode power supply goes south the supply is for a disk drive any general hints would be appreciated thanks mark tarbell suite com at fault when a switch mode power supply goes south the supply is for a disk drive any general hints would be appreciated thanks mark tarbell s bvh j
sci.electronics	re can microwaves be used to collect xyz coordinates where can you get info brochures on differential gps systems and where to buy them bobc
sci.electronics	re help how to construct home built battery for rd grade sci report in making batteries you could use copper and zinc in an acid electrolyte copper copper wire pennies are now mostly zinc if i recall correctly zinc zinc strip hardware stores arround here seattle sell this to prevent moss buildup on the roof an alternative would be to use a galvanized zinc coated nail electrolyte lemon juice citric acid is the active ingrediant sp volta late th century scientist used a stack for his batteries copper disk paper disk soaked in acid zinc disk copper disk paper they were advanced technology for the time gerald edgar gwe atc boeing com the opinions expressed in this communication may not reflect those of my employer
sci.electronics	motorola xc rc and rc i just installed a motorola xc rc fpu in an amiga a board mhz with capability to clock the fpu separately previously a mc rc was installed and everything was working perfectly now the systems displays a yellow screen indicating a exception when it check for the presence type of fpu when i reinstall an mc rc the system works fine but with the xc even at mhz it does not work the designer of the board mentioned that putting a pullup resistor on data strobe ohm might help but that didn t change anything does anybody have some suggestions what i could do does this look like a cpu fpu communications problem or is the particular chip dead it is a pull not new moreover the place i bought it from is sending me an xc rc i thought that the rc were labeled mc not xc for not finalized mask design are there any mc rc thanks christian
sci.electronics	telephone on hook off hok allmichael covingtontelephone on hook off hok mc from mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington mc organization ai programs university of georgia athens mc aye there s the rub if you draw enough current to light an led th mc equipment at the phone company will think you ve gone off hook mc in the on hook state you re not supposed to draw current ok lets have some calculation here going by australian standards which i presume might be similar to other countries if not lets have some input a phone uses ohm to loop a v line ma a standard led drains ma so what is the actual loop current required for an off hook indication do you know cheers peter t
sci.electronics	what s a good ic for rs alltall cool onewhat s a good ic for rs tc from rky uxa cso uiuc edu tall cool one tc organization university of illinois at urbana tc i m looking for an ic that will convert rs voltage levels to ttl vo tc levels something relatively inexpensive would be nice too anyone tc a suggestion thanks try a maxim max cpe pin dil converts v to v for commms what a clever little gizmo peter t
sci.electronics	swr meter for cb radios allthe devil reincarnateswr meter for cb radios td from ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate td organization cdac wa td what td is a good choice for a cb or wave td i read the installation instructions on a wave antenna td and they suggested that i use an swr to tune it at channel td and channel for a minimum reading question is why channel td and the best antenna is one that will let out the most wave probably not the best explanation but the rest makes sense a one wave will cancell itself out btw no such beastie the best is a wave antenna followed by then etc as for swring in what you actually do is trim the antenna to the correct length for the specific wavelength you will be transmitting on since the wavelength varies with the channel you use then it s recommended to swr in using the middle channel of those you are going to use anyway in the beginning of cb s all new antennas had to be swr ed in nowdays manufactures trim the antennas almost spot on so that there s not much point in swring then again you may be a fanatic and whish to do it anyway cheers peter t
sci.electronics	what s exactly in a flour allmartin mccormickwhat s exactly in a flour mm from martin datacomm ucc okstate edu martin mccormick mm organization oklahoma state university stillwater ok mm what sort of lamp is the little glass bulb found inside the starter mm it sort of reminds me of a ne neon lamp starters appear open when m mm with an ohm meter so the little lamp is either a neon or has a capacit mm in series with it mm mm i have seen these things all my life but never read a really good mm description of what is happening inside that little can do you know what a bi metallic strip is just in case it is two strips of different metals bonded together which when heated bend to one side check out the blinker globe in your christmas tree lights so when you turn on the power this causes the bulb to work like a neon heating up and shorting out thus providing a loop to power the heaters in the main tube when the tube fires insufficient current runs through the starter to keep the heat up and the bi metalic strip straightens out o c btw i too thought that they were nothing more than a small neon so one day when the neon in my sisters digital flip the metal squares type clock broke flimsy leads i replaced it with one from a starter well powering up made a bit of a mess of the clock cheers peter t
sci.electronics	dmm advice needed allmartin emdedmm advice needed me from mce bcstec ca boeing com martin emde me organization boeing me me i an currely in the market for a dmm and recently saw an add me for a kelvin does anyone own one of these or some me other brand that they are extremely happy with how do the me small name brands compare with the fluke and beckman brands me i am willing to spend for one me me any help is greatly appreciated please email me me martin if you are going to use one where it counts eg aviation space scuttle etc then i suggest you go and buy a fluke never seen a beckman however for every other use you can buy a cheapie i have a metex which is some made up name as i have seen the same dmm with other brand names on it i bought it about yrs ago for aus convert that to us and you see that it s definetly a cheapie so far it has proved to be accurate taken moderate abuse and has many features on it cap freq transistor check etc i am very happy with it and would definetly not buy a fluke just for the name hope this helps cheers peter t
sci.electronics	re what do nuclear site s cooling towers do in article qlg o d q sequoia ccsd uts edu au swalker uts edu au s s walker man wrote i really don t know where to post this question so i figured that this board would be most appropriate i was wondering about those massive concrete cylinders that are ever present at nuclear poer sites they look like cylinders that have been pinched in the middle does anybody know what the actual purpose of those things are i hear that they re called cooling towers but what the heck do they cool except for their size the cooling towers on nuclear power plants are vertually identical in construction and operation to cooling towers designed and built in the s a hundred years ago for coal fired power plants used for lighting and early electric railways basicly the cylindrical tower supports a rapid air draft when its air is heated by hot water and or steam circulating thru a network of pipes that fill about the lower of the tower to assist cooling and the draft water misters are added that spray cold water over the hot pipes the cold water evaporates removing the heat faster than just air flow from the draft would and the resulting water vapor is rapidly carried away by the draft this produces the clouds frequently seen rising out of these towers that slight pinch maybe of the way up the tower is there because it produces a very significant increase in the strength and rate of the air draft produced compared to a straight cylinder shape the towers are used to recondense the steam in the sealed steam system of the power plant so that it can be recirculated back to the boiler and used again the wider the temperature difference across the turbines used in the power plant the more effecient they are and by recondensing the steam in the cooling towers before sending it back to the boilers you maintain a very wide temperature difference sometimes as high as degrees or more from first stage hot turbine to final stage cold turbine r tim coslet usenet r tim coslet cup portal com technology n domesticated natural phenomena
sci.electronics	re telephone on hook off hok in article aa insane apana org au peter m insane apana org au peter tryndoch writes mc aye there s the rub if you draw enough current to light an led th mc equipment at the phone company will think you ve gone off hook mc in the on hook state you re not supposed to draw current ok lets have some calculation here going by australian standards which i presume might be similar to other countries if not lets have some input a phone uses ohm to loop a v line ma a standard led drains ma so what is the actual loop current required for an off hook indication do you know up to microamperes on hook over something like ma off hook in between defective line and the phone company comes looking for leaky insulation michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
sci.electronics	re rams roms with ale latches for s intel also makes some neat memory and peripheral chips old technology early s ram plus io slow ram as i recall eprom plus io expensive and slow intel does make eproms with built in address latches i fear that you would need a very flexible and up to date eprom programmer to write to them give them a call i am not able to locate their memory products book yet sigh now who borrowed it robert
sci.electronics	re history question in article qnroe d n usenet ins cwru edu wb foz skybridge scl cwru edu david lesher writes an now deceased prof told us willing students about a project he had worked on during wwii they needed a mega power pa with very clear audio quality the purpose was to bellow at refugees from aircraft their solution was a giant compressed air source and a horn with parallel shutters worked by a small audio system i think he said it worked very well thus the war dept cancelled the project gee i got the idea from somewhere that devices like this were in common use in wwii so that commanders on board ships could bellow at the troops landing on a beach for example which reminds me of an anecdote from the mid s at a communications conference a marine corps communications officer said he didn t care much for all the spread spectrum multi access expensive communication systems that people were talking about at the time what he wanted was a kilowatt broadcast transmitter on the ship and a japanese transistor radio stuck in the ear of every marine hitting the beach haynes cats ucsc edu haynes cats bitnet ya can talk all ya wanna but it s dif rent than it was no it aint but ya gotta know the territory meredith willson the music man
sci.electronics	re history question in article snap paj uk co gec mrc paul johnson writes this is vague so i am posting it in case anyone else knows more i recall reading of a phonograph which used mechanical amplification compressed air was squirted out of a valve which was controlled by the pickup the result was noisy and distinctly lo fi but much louder nasa and related agencies apparently used this same principles to create the loudest reported reproduced sound they used an analog electrically controlled valve to control the flow of air across a horn throat if i remember correctly it was called a modulated air blast transducer there were reports of the thing being able to produce db hz mile distance communicate directly with fighter pilots ft etc regards gordon waters clyde gordon bme georgia institute of technology atlanta ga out of the mountain of despair we can hew the stone of hope mlk jr uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism gt a internet gt a prism gatech edu
sci.electronics	re subliminal message flashing on tv hi i was doing research on subliminal suggestion for a psychology paper and i read that one researcher flashed hidden messages on the tv screen at ths of a second is that possible i thought the maximum rate the tv was even capable of displaying images was th of a second or th of a second for an image composed of only odd or even scan lines you are correct the fastest complete image that could be presented on tv would be one field which is of a second approximately of course the phrase tv screen is often thrown around in reference to any crt display so perhaps this researcher wasn t using normal tv rates might even be a vector strokewriter display in which case the lower limit on image time is anyone s guess and is probably phosphor persistence limited bob myers kc ew hewlett packard co opinions expressed here are not systems technology div those of my employer or any other myers fc hp com fort collins colorado sentient life form on this planet
sci.electronics	re scope questions if my life depended on it i d say that it s a scope that uses long persistance phosphor to keep the successive taces on the screen for some unit of time store them do i get to live we ll let you live but just this once there s more to a real storage scope than just a long persistence phosphor actually the phosphor isn t usually anything special at all what makes a storage tube work is a screen placed just behind the phosphor which becomes charged as the electron beam intially writes the trace with the trace now written to the screen a separate low level flood electron gun keeps the image lit by exciting those areas of phosphor which are next to the written areas on the storage screen there are some problems with this the resolution is limited compared to a non storage tube and the stored trace tends to bloom with time of course this is pretty much obsolete technology done in by the current digital scopes which use raster scan displays and keep everything in a frame buffer memory anyways filip i ll buy a vowel gieszczykiewicz best e mail fmgst pitt edu ah yes from the same people who brought you that amazing new reading program that s sweeping eastern europe hooked on consonants bob myers kc ew hewlett packard co opinions expressed here are not systems technology div those of my employer or any other myers fc hp com fort collins colorado sentient life form on this planet
sci.electronics	re dmm advice needed in article aa insane apana org au peter m insane apana org au peter tryndoch writes if you are going to use one where it counts eg aviation space scuttle etc then i suggest you go and buy a fluke never seen a beckman however for every other use you can buy a cheapie my beckman died a few days ago thanks do about a or foot drop onto a lab table probably not indicative of anything but i ve already filled out the requisition for a fluke oh yeah and sometimes our measurements here do count not often but often enough that i want at least one good meter joel kolstad
sci.electronics	re what do nuclear site s cooling towers do excerpts from netnews sci electronics apr re what do nuclear site s by r tim coslet cup portal from r tim coslet cup portal com subject re what do nuclear site s cooling towers do date fri apr pdt in article qlg o d q sequoia ccsd uts edu au swalker uts edu au s s walker man wrote i really don t know where to post this question so i figured that this board would be most appropriate i was wondering about those massive concrete cylinders that are ever present at nuclear poer sites they look like cylinders that have been pinched in the middle does anybody know what the actual purpose of those things are i hear that they re called cooling towers but what the heck do they cool except for their size the cooling towers on nuclear power plants are vertually identical in construction and operation to cooling towers designed and built in the s a hundred years ago for coal fired power plants used for lighting and early electric railways basicly the cylindrical tower supports a rapid air draft when its air is heated by hot water and or steam circulating thru a network of pipes that fill about the lower of the tower to assist cooling and the draft water misters are added that spray cold water over the hot pipes the cold water evaporates removing the heat faster than just air flow from the draft would and the resulting water vapor is rapidly carried away by the draft this produces the clouds frequently seen rising out of these towers that slight pinch maybe of the way up the tower is there because it produces a very significant increase in the strength and rate of the air draft produced compared to a straight cylinder shape the towers are used to recondense the steam in the sealed steam system of the power plant so that it can be recirculated back to the boiler and used again the wider the temperature difference across the turbines used in the power plant the more effecient they are and by recondensing the steam in the cooling towers before sending it back to the boilers you maintain a very wide temperature difference sometimes as high as degrees or more from first stage hot turbine to final stage cold turbine r tim coslet usenet r tim coslet cup portal com technology n domesticated natural phenomena great explaination however you left off one detail why do you always see them at nuclear plants but not always at fossil fuel plants at nuclear plants it is prefered to run the water closed cycle whereas fossil fuel plants can in some cases get away with dumping the hot water as i recall the water isn t as hot thermodynamically in many fossil fuel plants and of course there is less danger of radioactive contamination wayne martin
sci.electronics	re electronic odometers was used bmw question in article c hhko ry vu vlsi ee vill edu mobasser vu vlsi ee vill edu bijan mobasseri writes there are two simple procedures for alterating any odometer mechanical driven odometer remove the speedo cable from the transmission attach a drill and run at max speed until the speedo turns over continue until the desired mileage is reached admittedly an irrelavent question for how long should the drill be running bijan a verrrrrry long time like on the order of days i had the pleasure of doing that once playing with the speedo cable and with my b d heavy duty at full speed rpm all the speedo ever got up to was mph now if you go a high speed drill and ran it at say rpm you could get mph out of it if you speedo doesn t burn out anyways to roll a mile odometer would take days or so much easier just to take the speedo apart thought i d share btw all this info was obtained legally o computer lesson one there is no any key alternate keys are shift ctrl caps lock alt and sometimes tab mvanmeet ub d umn edu consultant at lab
sci.electronics	grounding power wiring was re a question about vac outlet wiring there has been quite a bit of discussion about house wiring and grounding practices here a few points need to be clarified the equipment grounding conductor green green with a yellow stripe bare or the metal sheath or pipe of some wiring methods is used as a safety ground to carry fault currents back to the circuit breaker panel and to limit the voltage on the metal case of utilization equipment or other metal objects it should never except for a few exceptions to be discussed later carry the normal operating current of a connected load some equipment has filters in the power supply which may cause some slight current flow through the grounding conductor much communications or audio equipment is sensitive to noise or slight voltages on the grounding conductor and may require special wiring of the grounding conductors to provide reliable operation orange outlets are often used for this with insulated grounding conductors wired back to the panel box and in many cases back to the service anyone installing such a system should read both the section on grounding in the national electric code and publications on installing quiet isolated ground systems the code requires the insulated grounding conductors green wires to run with the current carrying conductors back to the panel box and if required back all the way to the service entrance where it is bonded to the service ground water pipe or rod many of these systems are installed illegally or unsafely where they do not provide a safe ground or a quiet ground or either the grounded conductor of a circuit often called the neutral which is referred to in the code as the identified conductor and is supposed to be white or natural grey this conductor is supposed to be connected to ground in most electrical systems at a single point generally at the service entrance panel this connection is through the main bonding jumper in many household service panels the main bonding jumper is actually a bonding screw which attaches the neutral busbar to the case of the panel the grounded conductor neutral is generally a current carrying conductor in the case of a volt circuit it is one of the two conductors completing the circuit from the panel to the load device since the grounded conductor neutral is only connected to the grounding conductor bare or green at the service entrance if the load is any distance from the service and draws any significant current there will be a small but measurable voltage between the grounded and grounding conductors at the load under normal operating conditions if you should incorrectly connect the grounded neutral conductor to the grounding conductor at the load some of the neutral current will flow instead through the grounding conductor since there will now be current flowing through the grounding conductor it will also no longer be quite at ground potential at the load end if the load equipment has a metal case which is connected to the grounding conductor through the u ground plug the metal case is now also no longer quite at ground potential the difference under normal non short circuit conditions may be only a few tenths of a volt but it could also be a volt or two this normally does not present a shock hazard however if you let the metal case of the grounded equipment come into contact with an independently grounded object such as a water or gas pipe a radiator a metal air conditioning duct or such part of the neutral current will try to flow through this aalternate ground path if the contact is not solid you will get a significant arc a low voltage but possibly moderate current arc under the wrong conditions this arcing could start a fire it is possible in some cases that the sneak ground current could also flow through a wire of inadequate size causing it to overheat with the incorrect non single point grounding of the neutral if there is a short circuit from hot to neutral the high short circuit current which may flow will cause a much higher voltage on the grounding conductor which increases the possibility for shock or fire also if you incorrectly multiply connect the neutral and ground the voltage on the ground system is seen as noise bu computer or audio equipment often causing malfunction i have spent some hours tracking down such shorts in technical facilities where they were inducing severe hum into equipment the neutral is usually bonded to the ground at the distribution transformer as well as at the service entrance of each dwelling this is done primarily for lightning protection so that induced lightning currents have a short path back to ground and also to assure that the currents drawn by shorts to grounded objects like pipes draw enough current to trip circuit breakers or blow fuses quickly the bad side of this is that not all the neutral current from the dwelling goes through the neutral wire back to the transformer some of it flows through the grounding electrode water pipe etc this may cause corrosion in the pipes and possibly in things like underground fuel oil tanks and it may also cause measurable ac magnetic fields due to the large loop between the hot conductors in the service and the neutral current in the water pipe and ground there are those who feel these fields may be unhealthy don t flame me on this i m just telling you where the field comes from not it s health effect as far as i m concerned the jury is still out on this note that the bonding jumper is only installed at the main panel not at any sub distribution panels this is one reason why it is illegal to run service entrance cable with the sheath used as a neutral to a sub panel you must have a seperate insulated conductor for the neutral the sheath can be used in this application only as the grounding conductor if the neutral is bonded to the grounding conductor in the sub panel say by forgetting to remove the bonding screw all the grounding conductors of the loads on that panel will be above ground with the possible problems listed above the code makes exceptions for ranges and dryers as well as feeds from one building to another in the cases of the range and dryer the neutral may be used as the equipment ground under certain conditions instead of a seperate wire every time the code is revised these exceptions come up for review these exceptions were in fact the first required safety grounds in the days before u ground outlets and such the appliance manufacturers don t want to have to redesign their ranges and driers and the contractors don t want to have to run four wire cable with four fairly heavy expensive wires in place of three wire to the appliances no question it would be safer with seperate neutrals to the stove but the neutral current is low for most burner settings since most current is in the volt hots except at some low settings the wires are large gauge and there are few reported cases of injury or damage so far the exceptions have survived in the case of feeds between buildings it s primarily for lightning protection people doing wiring should be aware what is and what isn t a legal grounding conductor obviously the bare wire in romex with ground is anywhere there is a green wire installed such as in a portable cord that is a good grounding conductor the sheath of bx clamped in bx connectors in metal boxes is a legal grounding conductor in the us bx has an aluminum band run under the steel sheath to lower the resistance of the sheath you can just cut this aluminum band off at the ends you don t have to bond it to anything it does its job by touching every turn of the bx sheath conduit or emt thinwall tubing is generally a legal grounding conductor but may require a bonding locknut where it enters a box or panel particularly for larger pipes greenfield looks like big bx but you pull your own wires in the empty sheath after you run it is not a legal grounding conductor as it doesn t have the aluminum band to bond it and the spiral steel has too much resistance and inductance you have to run a seperate green grounding conductor inside the greenfield wiremold is also not a legal grounding conductor as the paint on the boxes often prevents good contact and the feed to the wiremold extension is often from a box in the wall that may not be well connected to the first wiremold box i have personally discovered cases where the entire run of wiremold and the cases of everything plugged into all the outlets on the run were hot with volts why do i get a shock every time i touch my computer and the radiator here in the office because there was no ground wire in the wiremold and one of the outlets had shorted to the edge of the wiremold box you must run a ground wire back in the wiremold from the outlets at least to the first box in the original wiring conduit bx etc where you can bond the wire to the box with a screw bnding clip or whatever on another issue while you should ground the green wire lug on gcfi outlets when ever there is a place to ground them it is legal in the nec to use them without a ground if no ground is available it is better to have the protection of the ground fault interrupter than no protection if you don t install it the interrupter doesn t depend on the ground to trip it is desirable to connect the ground if available because if the ground is connected the interrupter will trip as soon as a faulty device is plugged in whereas without the ground it will not trip until someone or something provides a ground path for those questioning the legal use of ungrounded gcfi s read in the nec d exception this is the code my code is in the city but i know the rule hasn t changed it might be renumbered though we have only touched the surface concerning grounding there is much more to this subject but most of you have fallen asleep by now john john h schmidt p e internet schmidt auvax adelphi edu technical director wbau phone days adelphi university evenings garden city new york fax
sci.electronics	re what to do with old k simms in article ql ug i sunb ocs mq edu au johnh macadam mpce mq edu au john haddy writes in article netnews upenn edu jhaines eniac seas upenn edu jason haines writes i was wondering if people had any good uses for old k simms i have a bunch of them for the apple mac and i know lots of other people do to i have tried to sell them but have gotten no interest so if you have an inovative use or want to buy some simms i would be very interested in hearing about it the most practical use i ve seen for them is as key ring ornaments johnh i used a bunch as weights when building a model airplane hung them on the stringers across the stringer or whatever worked pretty well kelly
sci.electronics	re can i use a cd analog multiplexer for digital signal as the subject says can i use a for digital signals i don t see why it couldn t handle digital signals but i could be wrong anyone have any advice thanks yes i use hc and others commerically for this purpose so rest assured it works fine in one case i route bit serial digital audio using these and it is difficult to see any signal degradation at all which surprised me given some pretty fast edges hc is spec d at something like db mhz into ohms the more complex types are generally a little slower and more resistive plain series are not so good at handling v logic remember that the output load is seen by the input device tc e mail tchannon black demon co uk or tchannon cix compulink co uk
sci.electronics	re whats wrong with my cordlessphone i ve also found that the electronic starters on these instant on compact fluourescent lamp fixtures kick out interference that nukes my cordless phone i can hear it in my guitar amplifier too paul marxhausen university of nebraska lincoln grace happens
sci.electronics	uart cpu rom ram subsystem this is a followup post to something i ve written previously several people responded with good information but i don t think i communicated exactly what i am looking for i m working on a custom i o device that will communicate with a host via rs my custom circuitry will use an c eb or ec cpu and require about k of ram preferably flash ram in looking around i see that lots of people have engineered uart cpu rom ram subsystems that are ready to be interfaced to your custom i o devices it s been done so much that it would be best if i can avoid reinventing a system it just needs to use an c or cpu and be able to load a program from the host then transfer control to that program well there s one other thing the rom needs to know how to do it should have routines to send and receive bytes to from the host that utilize the hardware control lines dtr rts dts cts everything i ve seen is in the and up range that s too much for this application i need something around the cpu has the uart built in so you re only looking at a few chips does anyone know a company that markets a good board in this range or some public domain circuitry i can use thanks in advance for the info rich
sci.electronics	re chip chipset for code barcode llbgb utxdp dp utexas edu wrote distribution usa reply to lihan ccwf cc utexas edu while i m on the net bugging everyone is there such a thing as a chip or chipset to decode code barcode i ask for a couple of reasons mainly i want a reasonably compact encoding scheme to write information on magstripe cards and code appears to be about right if the right way to do it is something else and it s reasonably easy can someone let me know i might not get a chance to reply too quickly to this or my earlier post but i ll get to them within a couple days i think thanx everyone bgb lihan ccwf cc utexas edu hewlett packard has a series of barcode decoder ics hbcr hbcr and hbcr and they support of extended of interleaved of and upc codes the and pieces add codabar and code these chips support hp s barcode wands and slot readers an a heds wand run about cdn ian
sci.electronics	oscilliscopes for sale recently i posted two oscilliscopes for sale one has sold the other is still available used good condition hitachi v mhz dual channel portable analog oscilliscope o mv div o dc offset o alternate magnification x magnified non magnified waveform o vert mode trigger o tv sync separation circuit list price and the price fry s electronics just quoted sells for jdr microdevices current price products international your price used obo i haven t gotten an offer at the asking price so obo applies i also have a broken version of the scope which sold jdr mhz dual channel portable analog oscilliscope o mv div o component tester resistors caps diodes coils o tv video sync filter o z axis input intensity modulation broken means the crt produces a nice bright trace but the trace does not correspond to the input signal my guess is it s repairable but more than a simple calibration problem but i honestly have not tried to calibrate the scope or otherwise fix it it s as is i paid for it in its current state i bought it thinking i d repair it using the good scope for side by side comparison since i ve sold the good scope the bad one doesn t do me much good and i d like to recoup that amount as above i ll accept offers and take the best one i d prefer a local bay area california buyer so a i don t have to ship it and b she or he can examine the scope prior to purchase rbn apple com
sci.electronics	re what do nuclear site s cooling towers do wayne alan martin wm h andrew cmu edu writes excerpts from netnews sci electronics apr re what do nuclear site s by r tim coslet cup portal from r tim coslet cup portal com subject re what do nuclear site s cooling towers do date fri apr pdt in article qlg o d q sequoia ccsd uts edu au swalker uts edu au s s walker man wrote i really don t know where to post this question so i figured that this board would be most appropriate i was wondering about those massive concrete cylinders that are ever present at nuclear poer sites they look like cylinders that have been pinched in the middle does anybody know what the actual purpose of those things are i hear that they re called cooling towers but what the heck do they cool great explaination however you left off one detail why do you always see them at nuclear plants but not always at fossil fuel plants at nuclear plants it is prefered to run the water closed cycle whereas fossil fuel plants can in some cases get away with dumping the hot water as i recall the water isn t as hot thermodynamically in many fossil fuel plants and of course there is less danger of radioactive contamination actually fossil fuel plants run hotter than the usual boiling water reactor nuclear plants there s a gripe in the industry that nuclear power uses vintage steam technology so it s more important in nuclear plants to get the cold end of the system as cold as possible hence big cooling towers oil and gas fired steam plants also have condensers but they usually are sized to get the steam back into hot water not most of the way down to ambient some plants do cool the condensers with water rather than air as one canadian official asked about thermal pollution de icing a river said up here we view heat as a resource everybody runs closed cycle boilers the water used is purified of solids which otherwise crud up the boiler plumbing when the water boils purifying water for boiler use is a bigger job than cooling it so the boiler water is recycled john nagle
sci.electronics	how much would a tektronix a oscilloscope fetch hi i d like to know how much the foll equipment will fetch in the used equipment market without manuals or other accessories tektronix scope tektronix a scope tektronix logic analyser thanks much for your help
sci.electronics	re what to do with old k simms i was wondering if people had any good uses for old k simms i have a bunch of them for the apple mac and i know lots of other people do to i have tried to sell them but have gotten no interest how hard would it be to somehow interface them to some of the popular motorola microcontrollers i am a novice at microcontrollers but i am starting to get into them for some of my projects i have several k simms laying around from upgraded macs and if i could use them as free memory in one or two of my projects that would be great one project that comes to mind is a caller id device that would require quite a bit of ram to store several hundered cid records etc dan daniel joseph rubin rubin cis ohio state edu go bengals go bucks
sci.electronics	getting rid of screen wiggles my monitor display has a bad case of the wigglies i have a good ground i live in an old house and i have replaced much of the wiring i have two emi filters on the computer the monitor plugs into the computer when fluorescent lights are on upstairs the display jiggles when motors run in the house the display jiggles when incandescent lights are on in the kitchen the display jiggles i could bring a separate line from the breaker box and use it only for the computer would this do it emi doesn t only travel the volt line though should i shield the back of the monitor ground a grid or plate your expertise is appreciated thanks very much ed byrnes ed byrnes fax eabyrnes vela acs oakland edu kensington academy oakland university rochester mi north america
sci.electronics	fluke for sale was dmm advice needed i have a spare fluke a this is a true rms digital meter with digit display it s in average condition been used but works fine which is what fluke s are all about btw according to the fellow who designed these meters they can be converted to a function by clipping a jumper and adding the extra switches like i said seems fair these sell for new alan l peterman hm work al qiclab scn rain com it s odd how as i get older the days are longer but the years are shorter
sci.electronics	microcontroller i would like to experiment with the intel family does anyone out there know of any good ftp sites that might have compiliers assemblers etc
sci.electronics	fujitsu hdd i have a fujitsu m k which has been removed i believe from a digital x ray machine takes x ray pictures without film the fujitsu part number is b b b a i have obtained some data on the device it is inch winchester type of megabyte capacity though i was told it was over megabytes however there is very little information on the interface standard used it appears to use two balanced line connections but what each connection corresponds to i know not one connection is a way idc the other a way idc if anyone has any information on this device i would be most grateful if you could provide it thanks chris powell the man from janet cjp uk ac aber internet cjp aber ac uk nyx cpowell nyx cs du edu
sci.electronics	re radio shack battery of the month club donrm sr hp com don montgomery writes radio shack has canceled their battery of the month club does anyone know why they say they ll honor existing cards in customer hands but no new cards will be issued i was told that this is an environmental based move i was also told that there will be somthing else to replace the battery club like maybe the k floppy club we ll see bill quinn billq ms uky edu
sci.electronics	re what to do with old k simms rubin cis ohio state edu daniel j rubin writes how hard would it be to somehow interface them to some of the popular motorola microcontrollers not hard you can do the refreshing and access cycles by software but this hogs most of the available cpu cycles on a low end controller i ve seen some application note from philips that used one of their derivatives as a printer buffer with up to mb of dynamic ram that was accessed and refreshed with software bit banging another alternative would be to use one of those nice dram controller chips that create static ram appearance and all that but they may be too expensive to make it worthwhile segmented memory helps structure software
sci.electronics	re public domain circuits in commercial applications in article apr wuecl wustl edu dp cec wustl edu david prutchi writes can circuits found in electronics magazines with no patent disclaimer be used legally as subcircuits of a commercial unit there are two issues here copyright and patent the magazine article s contents are copyrighted and may not be reproduced translated etc without the copyright holder s permission however this does not cover the ideas expressed only the form of expression copying their circuit diagram or pc board pattern is copyright infringement but it s unlikely that they could stretch copyright far enough to claim that the circuit design itself is copyrighted so long as you draw your own diagrams and lay out your own boards copyright shouldn t be an issue patents are different the author does not have to give you any warning that the design is covered by patent although it would be sensible for him to do so in fact it s possible that he was infringing on someone else s patent without realizing it ignorance of the patented status is not a defence against infringement although it might reduce the damages a court would award however unless there was something seriously novel about the circuit almost certainly it is obvious to one skilled in the art and therefore unpatentable routine engineering is not patentable patents in theory cover only inventions ideas that are genuinely new caution i am not a lawyer consulting a professional would be wise if significant amounts of money are at stake all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.electronics	re public domain circuits in commercial applications in article c ge lif athena cs uga edu mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington writes patent law says you can build anything you want to for your own personal noncommercial use i m not up on the details of us patent law but i think this is incorrect there is a reasonable use exemption for copyright there is none for patents the exemptions from patent licensing are quite narrow r d work is exempt but personal use is not that is it s okay to experiment with a patented idea but not to put it to practical use e g to improve your stereo even if it s only your own private practical use of course it is unlikely that discreet personal use will ever be detected or that you will ever be sued over it all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.electronics	cad program for electronics i am making a search for a cad program that does a decent job of making schematic drawings the program needs to be in ms dos windows if possible what i want the cad program to do is to draw diagrams by dragging elements onto the screen and in this the elements needed are as diverse as vacuum tubes to ics case with pins it also needs to have provision for adding legends to the components as well as their values in other words i want to produce quality drawings printout would be to either pin dot matrix and or laser printer if you know of such a cad program that is of reasonable cost please respond fred w culpepper old dominion university retired fculpepp norfolk vak ed edu
sci.electronics	re sc sa specs could some kind soul post me the max power voltage current ratings of sc and sa transistors their conductance types and pinouts they are used in the sweep portion of a tv set sc maximum ratings vcbo v vceo v ic a pc w t c icbo max ua vcb v cob pf at q point vce ic a hfe sa maximum ratings vcbo v vceo v ic a pc w t c icbo max ua vcb v cob pf at q point vce v ic a hfe that s all i can get from my data book hope that helps suwanto iastate edu
sci.electronics	re what to do with old k simms rubin cis ohio state edu daniel j rubin writes how hard would it be to somehow interface them to some of the popular motorola microcontrollers i am a novice at microcontrollers but i am starting to get into them for some of my projects i have several k simms laying around from upgraded macs and if i could use them as free memory in one or two of my projects that would be great one project that comes to mind is a caller id device that would require quite a bit of ram to store several hundered cid records etc assuming hc in expanded muxed mode you could do it much easier if you get a dram controller ic the mmi could be used to implement this or you could use a counter and a huge multiplexer to provide row column refresh address multiplexing the thing with drams is that they require wierd timing address multiplexing and refresh actually if you wanted to use a ic you could look at an which has a neat controller built in there is also the xx i think one of those has the dram controller built in this one is for the dram however the has only one more address line adding only another component or so the k simms are basically or dram chips or their equivalent in fewer packages it can be done just takes a bit of logic design i m actually about to do it using a c p chip i ve got k simms that s megabytes on my apple e used to be in my
sci.electronics	re what do nuclear site s cooling towers do lots of pretty good stuff about how the huge towers near most nuclear power plants are there to cool the used steam back into near ambient temperature water deleted water as i recall the water isn t as hot thermodynamically in many fossil fuel plants and of course there is less danger of radioactive contamination actually fossil fuel plants run hotter than the usual boiling water reactor nuclear plants there s a gripe in the industry that nuclear power uses vintage steam technology so it s more important in nuclear plants to get the cold end of the system as cold as possible hence big cooling towers as a point of info some of the early nuclear power plants in this country used the fission pile as a first stage to get the water hot and then had a second stage fossil fuel step to get the water actually steam very hot i remember seeing this at con edison s indian point power plant which is about miles north of nyc and built more or less dannyb panix com all the usual disclaimers apply whatever they may be
sci.electronics	how starters work really in article aa insane apana org au peter m insane apana org au peter tryndoch writes so when you turn on the power this causes the bulb to work like a neon heating up and shorting out thus providing a loop to power the heaters in the main tube when the tube fires insufficient current runs through the starter to keep the heat up and the bi metalic strip straightens out o c imprecise this description ignores the role of the ballast misrepresents the heating effects in the starter the bimetalic strip cools down immediately after the contacts short circuit because the neon discharge stops and much less heat is generated from the i r loss in the metal as compared to the neon discharge the starter contacts open before the tube fires actually the tube fires as a result of the back emf generated in the ballast because of this immediate opening of the starter s contacts a capacitor is connected in parallel with the contacts to prevent excessive arcing during the firing the neon reionizes but does not draw sufficient current to prevent firing of the tube itself mustafa kocaturk mustafa seas smu edu ee dept room a caruth bldg home office smu box dallas tx
sci.electronics	re act in article qhrq innlri crcnis unl edu mpaul unl edu marxhausen paul writes ok what s a quick rundown on all the series variations we re repairing something with a act on it and the question arises well do i really need the act part flipping through digi key i see als as c hc ac acq act hct acht hctls here s something i posted about this a few years ago it s not fully up to date with all the new variations some of which are just different manufacturer s synonyms in practical terms ignoring the technological details this is my view of the families nb i am not a giant corporation which influences my views on things like availability and backward compatibility the original speed good power consumption fair effectively obsolete now use ls or later except for a very few oddball functions like which are hard to find in newer families h modification of for higher speed at the cost of higher power consumption very obsolete use f l modification of for lower power at the cost of lower speed very obsolete use cmos s later modification of for even higher speed at some cost in power consumption effectively obsolete use f ls combination of l and s for speed comparable to with lower power consumption best all round ttl now widest variety of devices f fast as blazes power not too bad the clear choice for high speed in ttl availability and prices generally good as failed competitor to f although a few as parts do things that are hard to find in f and thus are still useful als possible replacement for ls generally souped up still fairly new availability and prices possibly a problem c fairly old family cmos devices with ttl pinouts competed with series not too successfully obsolete use or newer cmos families thrown in as the major non non ecl logic family the old cmos family still viable because of very wide range of devices low power consumption and wide range of supply voltages not fast very forgiving and easy to work with beware static electricity but that comment applies to many other modern logic families too there are neat devices in this family that exist in no other the clear choice when speed is not important hc a new attempt at pinout cmos fast compared to old cmos power consumption often lower than ttl possibly a good choice for general purpose logic assuming availability and affordability cmos logic levels not ttl ones beware very limited range of supply voltages compared to older cmos also major rise of power consumption at faster speeds hct hc with ttl logic levels much the same comments as hc read the fine print on things like power consumption ttl compatibility in cmos involves some compromises k thrown in for speed freaks the low end of ecl various sources claim that it is easier to work with than super fast ttl for serious high speed work less forgiving though read and follow the rules or it won t work availability to hobbyists limited can be expensive k for real speed freaks hot ecl harder to handle than k and inconvenient packages much more useful datasheets however as for compatibility between families the families except c and hc are all more or less logic level compatible but how many x devices you can drive from one y output varies enormously with x and y you just have to read the specs and do the arithmetic c and hc are compatible with the others with a bit of hassle compatibility can be a bit of hassle or a lot of hassle depending on what supply voltage is using k or k to anything else is considerable hassle me i use and ls with a sprinkling of f hc t and k are interesting but i haven t used either significantly yet all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.electronics	re what do nuclear site s cooling towers do swalker uts edu au s s walker man writes i was wondering about those massive concrete cylinders that are ever present at nuclear poer sites they look like cylinders that have been pinched in the middle does anybody know what the actual purpose of those things are i hear that they re called cooling towers but what the heck do they cool i hope someone can help the actual hourglass is hollow and is designed to generate a draft exploiting the venturi effect around the base of the hourglass is a ring of water towers warm river water coming from the steam condenser in the plant is sprayed over louvres the draft being pulled through the tower cools the water by both evaporation and convection the sensible heat extracted from the cooling water is the driving force for draft generation it should be noted that the hourglass shaped cooling towers are used on both fossile and nuclear plants it should also be noted that at locations where water is plentiful the cooling towers are only used part time when the discharge temperature would exceed some release limit it was once thought that the warm discharge water was damaging to fish fishermen know that is thoroughly incorrect nontheless stringent usually state regulations remain in some instances since it typically takes hp worth of pumping to move the volume of water needed to cool a mwe plant the cost of using the towers is not insignificant john de armond wd oqc interested in high performance mobility performance engineering magazine tm interested in high tech and computers marietta ga send ur snail mail address to jgd dixie com perform dixie com for a free sample mag lee harvey oswald where are ya when we need ya
sci.electronics	re making copy of a video tape hooperw spot colorado edu wayne hooper writes victor inqmind bison mb ca victor laking writes you are experiencing what is called macrovision it is the protection that they use on the video tapes there are two ways around this that i know of first of all you can try using a different vcr to copy onto it is the input of the vcr that reacts to the protection so sometimes just switching the two vcrs around will take care of it some models just don t react to it does this also affect the viewing of tapes i have had problems with a couple of rented tapes they were virtually unviewable i fiddled with the tuning tracking and vertical hold but it was no good it sounds like your tv is one of the ones that also reacts to the video protection poor you the macroscrubber from radio electronics removes the protection so you souldn t have any more problems however if you use the method of copying it from one vcr to another where the second vcr doesn t react to the protection you will end up with a duplicate tape including the protection one thought comes to mind about your problem when playing the tape for viewing are you feeding the signal from the source vcr through an extra device before going to the tv if you feed it through a second vcr first that is your problem as to other devices such as converters i don t know if they would react or not just to be safe you might want to make sure that you have nothing between the vcr and tv victor inqmind bison mb ca the inquiring mind bbs winnipeg manitoba
sci.electronics	crt driver transistors device lt ic ma v br ceo v ccb pf v br cbo v vce v ic ma max polarity npn hfe min package hfe max material metal ft ghz price device lt ic ma v br ceo v ccb pf v br cbo v vce v ic ma max polarity pnp hfe min package hfe max material metal ft ghz price vce v anyone know of a source for these parts other than straight from motorolla i need lt s and lt i ve tried standard and they said we are out stephen cyberman toz buffalo ny us mangled on fri at if there s one thing i can t stand it s intolerance blue wave qwk v
sci.electronics	re analog switches balan michael fulbright said analog switches balanced to all on mf i am trying to build a synchronous demodulator and i ve hit a snag mf in my application i want to be able to change the gain of an mf op amp amplifier from to controlable via a digital input mf the most obvious way i ve come up with is to use analog switches mf to adjust the gain of the op amp the only analog switch i have mf experience with it the unfortunately i want to switch an mf ac signal which goes from about v to v and the is only mf for positive signals how about using a it has a seperate ground for the analog outputs it would get you bits mf another part which caught my eye was the analog devices ad this mf is a balanced demodulator which appears to fill exactly the need i mf have the data sheet was somewhat skimpy on application notes could mf someone comment on using this chip for the following application or how about a multiplying d a convertor this is essentiallty what you are makeing stephen cyberman toz buffalo ny us mangled on fri at catch the blue wave blue wave qwk v
sci.electronics	need diode model for pspice im designing a circuit with just a silicon diode i dont need to modify any of the parameters but the problem will not accept the following statement model diode d the pspice book i have is terrible i would appreciate any help neil gandler gandler electronics home automation electronic design technology
sci.electronics	wire amperage table needed does anyone has a table about the size of the wire to the amount of current it can carry probably in the amp range my friend is interested in converting a mazda into an electric car needed information for estimation thanks in advance p s any info on electric will be greatly appreaciated
sci.electronics	re making copy of a video tape in article hpcuhe cup hp com pi hpcuhe cup hp com paul ilgenfritz writes i think the go video dual cassette machines do a direct tape to tape copy which transfers macrovision to the copy i you can find one of these it would be worth a try go video machines used in hq mode will copy even the macrovision go video phone number ask for sales department since the state of arizona does not go on daylight savings time we effectively are in pacific time zone allen sullivan designing various stuff for go video
sci.electronics	re what do nuclear site s cooling towers do others said actually fossil fuel plants run hotter than the usual boiling water reactor nuclear plants there s a gripe in the industry that nuclear power uses vintage steam technology so it s more important in nuclear plants to get the cold end of the system as cold as possible hence big cooling towers when the utility gave up on that cinnci oh plant zimmer and announced they were going to convert it to a coal fired scheme the turbines were already in place and they were the low temp type so the plan was install a second set of high temp turbines and feed the low temp ones with the output of the new ones never saw anything more on this did they ever really build it a host is a host from coast to coast wb foz skybridge scl cwru edu no one will talk to a host that s close linux unless the host that isn t close pob is busy hung or dead
sci.electronics	re act others said s later modification of for even higher speed at some cost in power consumption effectively obsolete use f ls combination of l and s for speed comparable to with lower power consumption best all round ttl now widest variety of devices f fast as blazes power not too bad the clear choice for high speed in ttl availability and prices generally good i hate to disagree w a fellow as smart as henry but a few years back i worked on a project using lots of high speed stuff my part was slow parallel whew the mild mannered designer working on the fast serial stuff cussed swore at f all the time it was the harry reams of ttl one ultra tiny power line glitch one hickup one eyeblink across the board and bang the f had toggled counted whatevered at times he swore it would count even without any volt supply you can guess what the f stood for they would do anything to push s or work around it to avoid using f i don t think i d consider using f to replace s unless the consequences were fully understood a host is a host from coast to coast wb foz skybridge scl cwru edu no one will talk to a host that s close linux unless the host that isn t close pob is busy hung or dead
sci.electronics	help apple ii expansion chassis by mountain computer i recently bought an apparantly complete expansion chassis by mountain computer inc it consists of a box with apple compatible slots powersupply brick interface card and ribbon cable to attach it to the computer to be expanded there was also included a small card with empty sockets on top and pins on the bottom that looks like it would plug into the motherboard somewhere after pulling a chip there s an empty socket also on the interface card and a short pin dip jumper like the ones used with language cards this technological marvel came with no docs and i haven t a clue as how to hook this thing up if anyone has docs and or users disk of any sort for this i could really use copies of them or at least some help i need to know o how to orient the ribbon cable between the card and the chassis o how to attach the short cable from the motherboard to the card and if the small card is used o the purposes of the various jumper pins on the card it has more of those than my cms scsi card thanks john daniels ah cleveland freenet edu
sci.electronics	a and compatibility does any one know if the is timing pin compatible with the it seems the has in iheirent bug with cts rts handshaking and i need a suitable pin replacement to put in my serial card possibly a buffered version perhaps jolt gnu ai mit edu its not impossible just improbable johnp pro angmar uucp zaphod beeblbrox bl cleveland freenet edu n nig amsat org being a ham is so grand
sci.electronics	help ma current loop to rs converter needed where can i buy or build a device that will convert ma current loop signals to rs voltages i know some old terminals came with that option but none of the ones i own have that anyway i want to connect a computer to this old industrial computer to use the computer with communications software as a console instead of an old decwriter please e mail me if you have any info that would point me in the right direction
sci.electronics	re what do nuclear site s cooling towers do in c l x kj vcd hp com john eaton writes during the nuclear fission reaction the uranium fuel can get hot enough to melt when this happens the liquid uranium is pumped to the cooling tower where it is sprayed into the air contact with the cool outside air will condense the mist and it will fall back to the cooling tower floor there it is collected by a cleaning crew using shop vacs and is then reformed into pellets for reactor use the next day cooling towers are a lot taller than they really need to be power companies are forced to make them that tall by some enviromental law that requires the raw uranium emisions to be held to under this law is now under attack by lawyers arguing that the should be measured at the edge of the property rather than the edge of the cooling tower eliminating this law will save power companies thousands of dollars in concrete costs for new nukes john eaton hp vcd johne i think you posted your article days too late april st is over i don t like nuclear powerplants but i think it s not fair to tell such storys about them ok let me try to explain what that tower is used to st even the modernst nuclear powerplant is only a simple steam engine it has an hightech boiler but the rest is still verry verry conventional and if you ve already visited any condensation powerstation you l have seen the cooling towers too if you look at any good book about thermophysics you ll find a chapter about the carnot process which describes how to get energy from a temperature difference and that is the reason for cooling towers too you only can get energy if you ve an temperature gradient that means that you have steam on the one side and need to cool down the steam till you get water again on the other side if you want to get aprox of the energy you or better the uranium brought into the water to let it boil if you only have hot steam on the one and cold steam on the other side you ll loose much more of the energy and so they cool down the steam to get at least the of energy that carnot will give them the cooling towers are for cooling the steam the vapor you ll see is not the steam of the main core circulation because that steam is radioactive the circulation is divided in at least circuits connected about heat exchangers to prevent radioactive pollution of the environment nd ok the main core is hot but even in the modernst hightemperature reactors htr they only run at deg celsius this is still verry far away from uraniums melting point which is somewhere around deg celsius but you ll have lot s of problems with the boiler s steel that s because at this temperature the metal is attacked by steam and will corrode verry fast this is only for bwr s the new he cooled reactors have temperatures up to deg celsius but this is only experimental rd i personaly think that nuclear waste should be as low as ever possible because the dose you get will accumulate about the years today mrem and next year mrem won t be mrem at all it accumulates and even in years you ll still have mrem and i m not interested in glowing in the night and getting children with heads this is my point of view only my christian reisel student of electronic sciences christian reisel goldammerweg w buebingen germany voice fax email
sci.electronics	help how to reduce the rpms of a boxer fan i need to reduce the speed of a boxer fan by about i recall reading somewhere that the right capacitor in series will do it if this isn t a case of brain fade can someone suggest the cap value the specifics it s a real boxer fan tm the label says v amps al dykes adykes jpr com
sci.electronics	a d board quiry on an a d board i ve got i m using the a d lines it measures the voltages properly ie with a v power supply it reg s v and with v it reg s v problem is when i ve got the input voltage and i wish to lower it via a resistor the sensitivity of the board is so great that i can triger it with holding the v wire in one hand and touch the probe and it will register the full input voltage a m resistor only lowers voltage by v so this is not too feesable what could the problems be and what else could i use to lower the input voltage btw i ve got it grounded correctly inspiration comes to o baden sys bison mb ca those who baden inqmind bison mb ca seek the baden de bari unknown
sci.electronics	need to find out number to a phone line greetings situation i have a phone jack mounted on a wall i don t know the number of the line and i don t want to call up the operator to place a trace on it question is there a certain device out there that i can use to find out the number to the line thanks for any response al
sci.electronics	re what s a good ic for rs ttl signals in c zsc fl news cso uiuc edu rky uxa cso uiuc edu tall cool one writes i m looking for an ic that will convert rs voltage levels to ttl voltage levels something relatively inexpensive would be nice too anyone have a suggestion thanks well it looks as if digi key sells a chip with the number icl that does what you want they are selling it for about hope this helps frank customer asked what s that thing i answered chuckling well it s a highly technical sensitive instrument i use in computer repair being a layman you probably cann t grasp exactly what it does i call it a b f h frank w holden ka uww the radio doctor snailmail inter net addison st frankh scraps pittsburgh sgi com washington pa packet ka uww n idi wpa pa usa na disclaimer disclaimer h i confess you did it customer asked what s that thing i answered chuckling well it s a highly technical sensitive
sci.electronics	re need to find out number to a phone line alee ecs umass edu writes greetings situation i have a phone jack mounted on a wall i don t know the number of the line and i don t want to call up the operator to place a trace on it question is there a certain device out there that i can use to find out the number to the line thanks for any response al there usually is a way however often telephone companies like to keep all of their internal numbers private depends on your exchange any modern electronic switching equipment usually have voice synth lines that echo the number you called from the line service guys use this to make sure they connect up the right pairs of lines
sci.electronics	re rams roms with ale latches for s spp zabriskie berkeley edu steve pope writes in article qg sinnokf sheoak ucnv edu au jeff redgum ucnv edu au j pethybridge writes hello again i asked this a year ago but i am still looking i am getting sick of having to use a hc jeff just use the damned sure there are oddball latched memory chips but do you really want to use them sorry if i m pedantic but design your circuit using reasonably available parts and move on to more important problems we re looking at a series of chips by wsi the psd xx series they have mega address decoding logic on them various rom sizes upto mbit various ram sizes upto k and i o ports which can be chip select lines i o or the buffered address lines cute chip pin plcc package second sourcing may be a problem though bryan ryan vk tkx melbourne australia bryan philips oz au
sci.electronics	re what to do with old jason haines said what to do with old k to all on jh i was wondering if people had any good uses for old jh k simms i have a bunch of them for the apple mac jh and i know lots of other people do to i have tried to jh sell them but have gotten no interest how about collecting them all together ie everyones and selling them as a lot the other thing is to give to a recycler jh so if you have an inovative use or want to buy jh some simms i would be very interested in hearing jh about it if they are free and you can send them real cheap i would be intrested in them hehehe are these chip or chip devices what speed jh i have seen ram disc storage devices but they have been jh very pricey plus i am still a little worried about having data jh stored on ram why do you use a ram disk stephen cyberman toz buffalo ny us mangled on fri at badgers we don t need no steenking badgers blue wave qwk v
sci.electronics	re what to do with old kris gleason said re what to do with old to all on kg yeah keychains i have seen k simms with a silver kg keyring attached big seller at the computer store i m kg sure you could find a bunch of geeks h h h h h h computer kg science majors around that would buy them for maybe kg if you re lucky untrue they would check jdr first and say that s how much they are worth at most my guess is they are worth buck a peice stephen cyberman toz buffalo ny us mangled on sat at this tagline is a duplicate this tagline is a duplicate blue wave qwk v
sci.electronics	how does differential mode gps work i understand that the new gps boxes now have an option known as differential ready apparently land based beacons tranmit gps correction information to your gps receiver with differential option installed how does this system work what frequency is used for the land based beacons thanks in advance charlie thompson
sci.electronics	re need to find out number to a phone line in texas well corpus christi anyway if you pick up the phone and dial the phone company will read back the number to you try it it might work
sci.electronics	re need to find out number to a phone line in article bd dea ecs umass edu alee ecs umass edu writes greetings situation i have a phone jack mounted on a wall i don t know the number of the line and i don t want to call up the operator to place a trace on it question is there a certain device out there that i can use to find out the number to the line thanks for any response al how about calling someone with the caller id service and have them call you back with the number richard cook e mail rcook gfx engga uwo ca elect eng fax
sci.electronics	re can i use a cd analog multiplexer for digital signals tall cool one rky uxa cso uiuc edu wrote as the subject says can i use a for digital signals i don t see why it couldn t handle digital signals but i could be wrong anyone have any advice thanks the switches have a non negligable on resistance up to k ohm when powered by volts and a maximum current and a maximum static voltage across switch not a good bet for ttl should work for cmos but slow things down a bit there are hc versions that have better specs but lower max voltage mark zenier markz ssc wa com markz ssc com
sci.electronics	re illusion chris best cab col hp com wrote this is not a new idea at least years ago i got this little gadget with a keyboard on the back and led s in a vertical row on the front it has a long handle and when you wave it in the air it writes the message you typed on the keyboard in the air this is not news in fact it s where i got the idea from since it was such a neat item mattell made it i believe modeled after a space saber or light sword or something likewise theme y my addition was using a motor for continuous display and polar effects in addition to character graphics i should have protected it when i had the chance no one to kick but myself ten years ago is about right since i built mine in or it s even older than that i remember seeing a description of a garage operation selling them at some of the early computer faires in san francisco about years before that mark zenier markz ssc wa com markz ssc com
sci.electronics	voltage regulator spec needed hi there i have a mac with a burned out part which looks like a voltage regulator the part number is bu and i believe the vender is sgs thomas judging by teh sgs logo printed on the package if anyone has teh spec for this part i would greatly appreciate an email with the import info so i can find a replacement thanx in advance dave dnewman lynx northeastern edu btw i don t need people telling me to throw the computer away if i had the money the thing would be in the trash in a second but it does make a good terminal if nothing else
sci.electronics	re what do nuclear site s cooling towers do the object of a cooling tower is to distribute dissolved salts in cooling water over large areas of farmland and to therefore decrease farm subsidies for non producers by rendering their land infertile a side effect of this deficit reduction program is that they provide a low t reservoir for a variety of industrial processes now you know john berryhill
sci.electronics	re exploding tv just as a not of possible interest on this subject it is my understanding that exploding televisions were a major cause of domestic accidents in the soviet union in past years
sci.electronics	re a question about vac outlet wiring in article qmisf odp sdl warren mentorg com garyg warren mentorg com gary gendel writes in article cmkrnl com jeh cmkrnl com writes what you can do if you want three prong outlets without additional wiring is to use a gfci outlet or breaker but the outlet will be cheaper in fact depending on where you are putting your new outlet s a gfci may be required you still need to supply a proper ground for a ground fault circuit interrupter not according to the nec nor the cec as explained in the electrical wiring faq which i posted here separately note the material under the headings subject how do i convert two prong receptacles to three prong and subject are you sure about gfcis and ungrounded outlets should the test button work of course as they said local codes may vary so rewiring is still a part of this job however the ground may be connected to a local earth ground rather than back at the breaker box i m not sure about this if the ground connections on the outlets are connected to anything they should be connected to a wire that runs back to the main panel where it is bonded to the neutral connector and to the house ground rod a connection to a local earth ground would not necessarily meet one of the goals of the ground wire which is that if a short develops from hot to the ground wire enough current would flow to trip the breaker hmmm how are those orange isolated ground outlets often used in computer rooms wired jamie hanrahan kernel mode systems san diego ca internet jeh cmkrnl com uucp uunet cmkrnl jeh cis
sci.electronics	re motorola xc rc and rc in article apr rosie uh edu st my rosie uh edu stich christian e writes i just installed a motorola xc rc fpu in an amiga a board mhz with capability to clock the fpu separately previously a mc rc was installed and everything was working perfectly now the systems displays a yellow screen indicating a exception when it check for the presence type of fpu when i reinstall an mc rc the system works fine but with the xc even at mhz it does not work the designer of the board mentioned that putting a pullup resistor on data strobe ohm might help but that didn t change anything does anybody have some suggestions what i could do does this look like a cpu fpu communications problem or is the particular chip dead it is a pull not new moreover the place i bought it from is sending me an xc rc i thought that the rc were labeled mc not xc for not finalized mask design are there any mc rc i too have a xc rc math coprocessor which i installed succesfully in my mega midget racer clocked at mhz i have tried clocking my fpu at to mhz and it all worked just fine i have a mc cpu i don t know why my fpu has an xc my original mhz fpu was label mc but it seems to work fine on my system maybe you just have a bad chip stefan p s or does it mean experimental chip instead of motorola chip
sci.electronics	characterization of opamps hi right now i should do some characterization of opamps because i don t have special equipment for this task i have to do this job with relativly simple equipments frequency sweeper dso etc does anyone know good test circuitry for characterization of opamps especially for measuring open loop gain phase margin pssr cmmr and so on are there any books or application notes on this subject available please reply vi e mail or nn thanks mark mark niederberger e mail mniederb itr ch
sci.electronics	looking for electronics dept info in austrailia hi netters i am looking for the list of universities in austrailia which has electronics department i am considering to spend a year for research in austrailia about communication area i am interested in mobile communication areas and spread spectrum communications etc but i don t have any information about austrailian universities can anybody recommend a good university in co mmunic ation area any comments will be welcomed bye jaehyung kim
sci.electronics	re what do nuclear site s cooling towers do nagle netcom com john nagle writes great explaination however you left off one detail why do you always see them at nuclear plants but not always at fossil fuel plants at nuclear plants it is prefered to run the water closed cycle whereas fossil fuel plants can in some cases get away with dumping the hot water as i recall the water isn t as hot thermodynamically in many fossil fuel plants and of course there is less danger of radioactive contamination actually the reasons you don t see so many cooling towers at fossil plants are fossil units multiple units per plant are generally smaller than nuclear plants mwe seemed to be a very popular size when many fossil plants were built the average nuclear plant is mwe many fossil plants were grandfathered when water discharge regulations were adopted why those old dirt burners can t harm anything let em go powered draft cooling towers low enough to the ground to be generally not visible from off site are quite popular with fossil plants fossil plants used to get much less regulatory attention than nuclears actually fossil fuel plants run hotter than the usual boiling water reactor nuclear plants there s a gripe in the industry that nuclear power uses vintage steam technology so it s more important in nuclear plants to get the cold end of the system as cold as possible hence big cooling towers oil and gas fired steam plants also have condensers but they usually are sized to get the steam back into hot water not most of the way down to ambient some plants do cool the condensers with water rather than air as one canadian official asked about thermal pollution de icing a river said up here we view heat as a resource actually the condensing environment is essentially the same for plants of similar size the issues are the same regardless of where the heat comes from condensers are run at as high a vacuum as possible in order to reduce aerodynamic drag on the turbine the condenser pressure is normally water s vapor pressure at the condensing temperature it is desirable that the steam exhaust be free of water droplets because moisture in the steam causes severe erosion damage to the turbine low pressure blades and because entrained water moving at high velocity causes erosion of the condenser tubes the coldest and thus lowest pressure condensing environment is always the best a related issue is that of pumping the condensate from the hotwell where the water ends up after dripping off the condenser tubes since the condenser is at a very low pressure the only force driving the condensate into the hotwell pumps is gravity if the condensate is too hot or the gravity head is too low the condensate will reflash into steam bubbles and cause the condensate pumps to cavitate this is a particularly destructive form of cavitation that is to be avoided at all costs the hotwell pumps are located in the lowest point in the plant in order to provide a gravity head to the pumps how much lower they must be is a function of how hot the water is allowed to get in the hotwell typically hotwell temperatures run between and degrees depending on the temperature of the river water this term is used to describe the river grade water even when the cooling tower system is operating in closed loop mode and essentially no river water is pumped when the river water temperature is high in the summer operators will typically allow the hotwell level to rise in order to provide more gravity head there is a tradeoff involved since higher hotwell levels will encroach onto the condensing tubes and reduce the condenser area at least in the east and elsewhere where moisture actually exists in the air the river water will almost always be cooler than the discharge water from the cooling towers the temperature of the discharge water from the cooling towers is set by the ambient air temperature and humidity it is very rare in the east to hear of actual river water temperatures exceeding degrees a vast difference from the typical days degrees humidity we see routinely in the east it is not unusual particularly where the econazis have been successful in clamping rigid discharge water temperature limits on a plant for the plant to have to reduce the firing rate when the air temperature gets too high and the condenser cannot handle the heat load without excessive pressure everybody runs closed cycle boilers the water used is purified of solids which otherwise crud up the boiler plumbing when the water boils purifying water for boiler use is a bigger job than cooling it so the boiler water is recycled true actually secondary plant the part that makes electricity and feeds feedwater to the boiler water chemistry has been the bastard stepchild until recently and has not gotten the respect it deserves the plant chemists have just in the past decade or so fully understood the costs of impure water by impure i mean water with a few dozen extra micromho of conductivity and or a few ppm of dissolved oxygen secondary water is now typically the most pure one will find outside the laboratory john john de armond wd oqc interested in high performance mobility performance engineering magazine tm interested in high tech and computers marietta ga send ur snail mail address to jgd dixie com perform dixie com for a free sample mag lee harvey oswald where are ya when we need ya
sci.electronics	re what is zero db in article apr bnr ca moffatt bnr ca john thomson writes joseph chiu josephc cco caltech edu wrote and the measure of current amp is actually named after both the amp company and the amphenol company both companies revolutionized electronics by simulatenously realizing that the performance of connectors and sockets were affected by the amount of current running through the wires sorry the unit for current is the ampere which is the name of a french man named ampere who studied electrical current the term amp is just an abbreviation of it the company amp came after the ampere unit was already in use the ohmite company was the first to characterize resistances by numbers thus our use of the ohms i don t know about this one but it doesn t sound right are you two joking is the entire internet flaming you two ahh now i remember that ohmite company was the first introducing the pink colored resistor only for electronics working females manuel arrevola velasco true e mail manolo taf fundesco es dod
sci.electronics	re adcom cheap products aaron lung alung megatest com wrote i was also sceptical about the amps being built in the far east or where ever but if you look in the amp and see what components they use and how it was designed you can easily see why the amplifiers sound so brilliant good point also i wouldn t be surprised that the components they use off shore are of inferior quality as long as it was properly designed and robust premium components are used it shouldn t matter where it is assembled definately i agree wholeheartedly if they can build the amp where the labour is not so expensive they can afford to put decent components in and go to more effort to improve the design of the amplifier as adcom has done i cannot see why people say the amplifier won t last not with those quality components inside sure the amp runs very fairly hot but that s how you get an amp to sound incredibly good an amp that runs hot has no bearing on how it s gonna sound the amp you have probably is running class a the whole day actually i d be wary of excessively hot amps cauz even though the components inside may be rated to run that way excessive heat will dramatically shorten the life of any electronic component regardless of quality in fact an amp that does run hot to the touch is because either the engineer or manufacturer of that amp wanted to skimp on heatsinking or cooling to save costs hmmmmm sure i didn t mean to imply that because of the heat generated the amp sounds good my adcom gfp ii runs fairly warm not hot to the touch but enough to satisfy me that the amp is running nicely i don t like it when an amp runs dead cold it makes one think that the amp is doing nothing the heatsinks that adcom uses in their amps are certainly far for skimpy they re massive things with heating vents both below and above more than enough to carry away excessive heat my opinions once again alan webber webb itu sun ac za webb itu sun ac za the path you tread is narrow and the drop is sheer and very high the ravens all are watching from a vantage point near by apprehension creeping like a choo train up your spine will the tightrope reach the end will the final couplet rhyme
sci.electronics	re what s a good ic for rs ttl signals in article c nz z scraps uucp frankh scraps uucp frank holden ka uww writes in c zsc fl news cso uiuc edu rky uxa cso uiuc edu tall cool one writes i m looking for an ic that will convert rs voltage levels to ttl voltage levels something relatively inexpensive would be nice too anyone have a suggestion thanks well it looks as if digi key sells a chip with the number icl that does what you want they are selling it for about digi key also sells quad line receivers parts ds an cents and ds n cents a quad line driver part ds cents is also sold i guess if you don t won t to supply v the chips with the pump up circuitry might be worth the extra cost but s and s are available at your friendly neighborhood rs parts mc for and mc for jeff white jhwhit ulkyvx louisville edu
sci.electronics	re motorola xc rc and rc in article apr rosie uh edu st my rosie uh edu stich christian e writes i just installed a motorola xc rc fpu in an amiga a board mhz with capability to clock the fpu separately previously a mc rc was installed and everything was working perfectly now the systems displays a yellow screen indicating a exception when it check for the presence type of fpu when i reinstall an mc rc the system works fine but with the xc even at mhz it does not work the designer of the board mentioned that putting a pullup resistor on data strobe ohm might help but that didn t change anything does anybody have some suggestions what i could do does this look like a cpu fpu communications problem or is the particular chip dead it is a pull not new moreover the place i bought it from is sending me an xc rc i thought that the rc were labeled mc not xc for not finalized mask design are there any mc rc thanks christian have you changed the crystal that clocks for the fpu if you haven t then it won t work conrad
sci.electronics	re single chip receiver for fsk in article c l xm e law daytonoh ncr com jra law daytonoh ncr com john ackermann x writes my goal is to come up with an inexpensive design for a receiver back end with if input on one end and an fsk demondulator on the other i m particularly interested in ways to use a higher if than do any current chips work up to say mhz with internal downconversion so a normal if filter can be used gec plessey specify a series of fm demodulators sl etc for use in satellite tv receivers or mhz in mhz of baseband video out i think there s also a related data slicer clock recovery circuit intended for use in dmac decoders though that isn t used in the most common implementation it may not be in volume production the most easily available components probably vary with local satellite standards and i think the european systems vary rather widely from those in the us so it may be worth investigating locally available receiver designs to find out what s in common use adrian adrian godwin agodwin acorn co uk adrian fangorn demon co uk g hwn gb khw obdisclaimer i believe this rubbish don t imagine that anyone else does
sci.electronics	references to switched capacitor filter ics wanted hi all i would like to know what are the popular ics of the type their capabilities of channels et c and prices great thanks andrew
sci.electronics	re dmm advice needed kolstad cae wisc edu joel kolstad writes in article aa insane apana org au peter m insane apana org a if you are going to use one where it counts eg aviation space scuttle etc then i suggest you go and buy a fluke never seen a beckman however for every other use you can buy a cheapie my beckman died a few days ago thanks do about a or foot drop onto a lab table probably not indicative of anything but i ve already filled out the requisition for a fluke oh yeah and sometimes our measurements here do count not often but often enough that i want at least one good meter joel kolstad we used to buy beckman and hd ruggedized versions for use by electricians in the steel mill where i work after a while we got round to filling all the current input jacks with silicone electricians have a regrettable habit of not checking where the last guy left the leads before using a digit autoranging meter to check if a fuse is good or not its very hard on meters and electricians when you put the milliamp shunt across a volt bus but that s not why we stopped buying beckmans after a while a lot of them got funny in the lcd display a black stain would spread from one edge or else they d come adrift from those zebra connectors and fail to operate now we buy flukes the low end series mostly and we still fill the amp jack with silicone what the world needs is a meter that won t let you change ranges or turn it on off with a lead stuck in the amps jack a little bit of clever plastic detailing would take care of this and make the world safer for electricans anyway not that i ve ever put a meter on the wrong range into a live circuit no not me not more than a dozen times anyway bill bills inqmind bison mb ca the inquiring mind bbs winnipeg manitoba
sci.electronics	sale fiber optic modems rf modem etc best offer please take these and use them take advantage of me i really don t know what they are worth qty canoga perkins fiber optic modems model rs interface appear new i have powered up but that s all i have not used them and i cannot tell you whether they work or not make offer qty isc datacom rf modem model tx rx sm interface rs internal fan powers up fine but otherwise condition unknown phone for the company is make offer qty motorola uds a d modem rs interface appears to work but i have not and cannot check it make offer thanks and please buy this stuff or it goes out the door mack mdgoodma cbda apgea army mil
sci.electronics	f y i imagewriter to windows article crossposted from comp windows ms author was kevin routh posted on apr gmt for your information i hooked up my imagewriter i to my com serial port and used the c itoh driver in windows the cable i am using is a straight thru cable connected to a null modem adapter i got at radio shack catalog a for it seems to work fine with both dos and windows i used the following command in dos c dos mode com n p and set up the port the same way in the windows ports setup the null modem connections are as follows to to to to to to to to i printed from several applications and all seems ok kevin c routh internet krouth slee srl ford com ford electronics ibmmail profs usfmctmf eld ic engineering rotunda drive b voice mail dearborn mi facsimile kevin c routh internet krouth slee srl ford com ford electronics ibmmail profs usfmctmf eld ic engineering rotunda drive b voice mail dearborn mi facsimile kevin c routh internet krouth slee srl ford com ford electronics ibmmail profs usfmctmf eld ic engineering rotunda drive b voice mail dearborn mi facsimile
sci.electronics	info wanted graphics lcd displays hi there does anyone know how to get hold of data as well as stock of the lcd displays used in the nintendo gameboy handheld tv game machines any information wouold be most appreciated please e mail any replies to arawstorne eleceng uct ac za thanks alex
sci.electronics	pace modem hi i ve got a pace modem series four s made in england by pace micro technology with a broken power supply so i d like to know the voltage and current values of the original power supply ps the pinout of the power supply connector the pinout of the user port and how to use it many thanks in advance to all the people help me please post the reply also to my e mail sender stefano mora email mora verdi eng unipr it
sci.electronics	telephone controlled power bar needed i would appreciate some help in locating a telephone controlled power bar for my pc the unit would power up the pc when the telephone rings and keep it up as long as the telephone connection is present i also need to be able to power up this same pc through the use of an external timer i can supply power or a contact closure to do this i will summarize and post the results of this query here thank you dan gould gould waterloo hp com
sci.electronics	re how starters work really so when you turn on the power this causes the bulb to work like a neon imprecise this description ignores the role of the ballast misrepresents the heating effects in the starter the bimetalic strip cools down immediately after the contacts i ve been thinking of sending into mad magazine an idea for a parody of those books entitled how things work that engineers buy their sons which explain how engines elevators flourescent lights etc work the parody would be how things really work under canned food on the left page you d see the description from how things work gleaming stainless steel equipment pasteurizing the food to precisely the right temperature then sealing the can in an oxygen free environment etc on the right page you d see how things really work brain dead workers sending disgusting food to the gleaming equipment rotting vegetables parts of animals people don t eat barrels of sugar and chemicals under elevators you d see on the left computer geniuses working out algorithms so that x number of people waiting for y elevators will get to z floors in the shortest time on the right you d see giggling elevator controllers behind a one way mirror in the lobby choosing which people appear to be in the biggest hurry and making them wait longest why my thoughts are my own when they are in but when they are out they are another s susannah martin hanged for witchcraft thomas david kehoe kehoe netcom com
sci.electronics	re history question in article snap paj uk co gec mrc paul johnson writes i recall reading of a phonograph which used mechanical amplification compressed air was squirted out of a valve which was controlled by the pickup the result was noisy and distinctly lo fi but much louder than a conventional phonograph it tended to wear the disks out pretty quickly though this was the pathe you are thinking of although there were other imitators it didn t wear the disks any more than conventional acoustic designs but it did have a high noise level due to the continual hiss of escaping air there are a lot of them still operating and they are pretty ingenious there was a pneumatic amplifier designed by alexander graham bell as well but i don t know if it was ever constructed scott
sci.electronics	re need to find out number to a phone line in article bd dea ecs umass edu alee ecs umass edu writes greetings situation i have a phone jack mounted on a wall i don t know the number of the line and i don t want to call up the operator to place a trace on it question is there a certain device out there that i can use to find out the number to the line call a friend long distance collect ask to speak with yourself when the operator asks for you you won t be there so ask the operator to leave your number she ll read it out in the clear scott
sci.electronics	re subliminal message flashing on tv in article hpfcso fc hp com myers hpfcso fc hp com bob myers writes hi i was doing research on subliminal suggestion for a psychology paper and i read that one researcher flashed hidden messages on the tv screen at ths of a second is that possible i thought the maximum rate the tv was even capable of displaying images was th of a second or th of a second for an image composed of only odd or even scan lines you are correct the fastest complete image that could be presented on tv would be one field which is of a second approximately of course the phrase tv screen is often thrown around in reference to any crt display so perhaps this researcher wasn t using normal tv rates might even be a vector strokewriter display in which case the lower limit on image time is anyone s guess and is probably phosphor persistence limited actually a lot of this work used to be done with a crt that had a beamsplitter mounted in front and a tachistoscope driving it the tachistoscope is really just a slide projector with a very fast shutter low tech but it does the job scott
sci.electronics	mysterious mosfet i have a mosfet pulled out of a trygon power supply for which i have no manual it s a motorola part with a date code and the number which the motorola folks assure me is a house number which they can t help me with any suggestions from folks out there i can t put it on a curve tracer to try to get an equivalent since it s completely shot scott
sci.electronics	how does differential mode gps work i understand that the new gps boxes now have an option known as differential ready apparently land based beacons tranmit gps correction information to your gps receiver with differential option installed how does this system work what frequency is used for the land based beacons thanks in advance charlie thompson here s a rough sketch of how the system works a reference station with a very exactly known position computes the errors in the incoming gps signals these errors are due to several factors including atmospheric distortion sa selective availability time dithering etc the reference unit contains complex computational equipment to back out the errors in its position since it knows where it is already it then transmits these corrections on a broadcast which is available to any number of relatively local receivers if the receivers are nearby km and are using the same satellites as the reference unit the errors should be very similar for the reference unit and the receiver unit thus the receiver unit may apply the corrections calculated by the reference unit the us coast guard is currently as far as i know installing a series of coastline transmitters for differential gps these stations will use existing radio towers i believe the frequency is to be approximately khz there are many other private corporations offering dgps signals on different frequencies for example pinpoint offers correction signals and receiver units using an fm broadcast system which has stations all across the us the correction codes are usually transmitted using the rtcm format advertised accuracies espouse to meter errors john p baker my opinions are my own i don t know johns hopkins university anyone else who wants them anyway applied physics laboratory laurel md bakerjp aplcomm jhuapl edu
sci.electronics	new applications of electronics i m looking for brief information on new applications of electronics or new electronics in applications if you know of any interesting new stuff i would be intrested in hearing about it thanks mjh
sci.electronics	dayton hamfest some weeks ago someone posted an article telling when and where a hamfest and computerfest was going to be help in dayton oh unfortunately i lost the article and i was wondering if someone could repost it i believe it was being held the and of this month at the dayton convention center but i m not sure any help and more details would be greatly appreciated george d hodge domain cbcat att com
sci.electronics	re what do nuclear site s cooling towers do i really don t know where to post this question so i figured that this board would be most appropriate try sci energy jeff babb babb sciences sdsu edu babb ucssun sdsu edu programmer sdsu larc
sci.electronics	bit serial converters someone was looking for these a few weeks ago check out comp dsp mike
sci.electronics	re getting rid of screen wiggles in article qpj t itg vela acs oakland edu eabyrnes vela acs oakland edu ed byrnes wrote my monitor display has a bad case of the wigglies i have a good ground i live in an old house and i have replaced much of the wiring i have two emi filters on the computer the monitor plugs into the computer when fluorescent lights are on upstairs the display jiggles when motors run in the house the display jiggles when incandescent lights are on in the kitchen the display jiggles i could bring a separate line from the breaker box and use it only for the computer would this do it emi doesn t only travel the volt line though should i shield the back of the monitor ground a grid or plate your expertise is appreciated thanks very much ed byrnes aaahh a problem very near and dear to my heart in our case other monitors cause this problem the deflection coil of other monitors to be specific have also seen a monitor backed up to a fuse panel exhibit this problem this sounds like your problem since flourescent lites motors etc several s of feet away seem to me to be too far to cause it but the juice running to them must pass nearby your monitor fusebox on other side of wall maybe we started spec ing panasonic ct y video monitors switchable input lines vid aud s vhs on one this stopped the wavy interference effect on the computer monitor next to it now on to your problem you need what is known as mu shielding very common in fact almost mandatory on electrostatic deflection type o scopes i talked to a ee prof he said get a coffee can cut both ends off mount around deflection coil of interfering monitor be careful to avoid all high voltage circuitry especially the thicker high voltage anode lead usually colored red if you kill yourself don t blame sue me use plastic or other non conducting stand offs and such to mount can now i would assume that what is good for keeping mag fields in is also good at keeping them out so hopefully this ll work by mounting shield on monitor being interfered with as well if not start shielding those other sources jeff babb babb sciences sdsu edu babb ucssun sdsu edu programmer sdsu larc
sci.electronics	food dehydrators does anybody out there have one of those food dehydrators i ve been seeing all over late night tv recently i was wondering if they use forced air heat or both if there s heat involved anybody know what temperature they run at my wife would like one and i m not inclined to pay for a box a fan and a heater seems to me you should be able to throw a dehydrator together for just a few bucks heck the technology is only what years old john
sci.electronics	re need to find out number to a phone line well this is my second try at posting on this subject here goes in texas corpus christi at least if you pick up the phone and dial the phone company will read the number of the phone you are on back to you i believe the service department uses this to make certain they are repairing the correct lines when they open the big junction boxes i don t know if it will work but you can give it a try good luck
sci.electronics	suggestions on audio relays i built a little project using the radio shack vdc relays to switch audio i got pretty bad clicks when the thing switched i was doing most of the common things one is supposed to do when using relays and nothing seemed to get rid of the clicks my question is is there a good relay relay circuit that i can use for switching audio so that there will be no noise of any kind on the audio lines i will appreciate any advice or references to advice also exact part numbers company names etc for the relays will help thanks bill quinn billq ms uky edu
sci.electronics	re what do nuclear site s cooling towers do in article qngqlinnnp shelley u washington edu whit carson u washington edu john whitmore writes in article c l x kj vcd hp com johne vcd hp com john eaton writes s s walker man swalker uts edu au wrote during the nuclear fission reaction the uranium fuel can get hot enough to melt when this happens the liquid uranium is pumped to the cooling tower where it is sprayed into the air contact with the cool outside air will condense the mist and it will fall back to the cooling tower floor there it is collected by a cleaning crew using shop vacs and is then reformed into pellets for reactor use the next day another april posting ahhh mark e levy fermilab bitnet levy fnal unix is to computing internet levy fnald fnal gov as an etch a sketch is to art hepnet span fnald levy vms
sci.electronics	re radar detector detectors in article apr bmers bnr ca alee bmerh bnr ca louis leclerc writes in article oasys dt navy mil you write va ct wash dc and i think bc canada where i ve heard they actually use radar detector detectors nope not in british columbia detectors are legal here in bc i ve even got one in alberta and ontario they re illegal and detection devices are sometimes used i ve heard the police in ontario prefer a much more direct method of detection just trigger the radar gun watch for people slamming on the brakes and search the car david lee leex sfu ca detectors are legal in alberta the old law was overturned a long time ago stan burton dnd crad dres dtd mss agcg sburton dres dnd ca dre suffield box medicine hat ab canada t a k
sci.electronics	wireless transmitter receivers at rs does anyone know what frequencies the wireless transmitter receiver microphone systems that radio shack sells operate at i ve tried everything short of opening one up not actually owning one makes this difficult and just looking any help would be greatly appreciated these systems are designed for wireless pa systems etc thanks tracy
sci.electronics	re motorola xc rc and rc in article apr rosie uh edu st my rosie uh edu stich christian e writes i just installed a motorola xc rc fpu in an amiga a board mhz with capability to clock the fpu separately previously a mc rc was installed and everything was working perfectly now the systems displays a yellow screen indicating a exception when it check for the presence type of fpu when i reinstall an mc rc the system works fine but with the xc even at mhz it does not work the designer of the board mentioned that putting a pullup resistor on data strobe ohm might help but that didn t change anything does anybody have some suggestions what i could do does this look like a cpu fpu communications problem or is the particular chip dead it is a pull not new moreover the place i bought it from is sending me an xc rc i thought that the rc were labeled mc not xc for not finalized mask design are there any mc rc thanks christian it appears as if the problem is related to the s need for very fast and clean signal transitions i got some email vielen dank thomas stating that motorola provides a solution for this problem in their manual since my manual predates the mhz s i couldn t find it could someone please email me the specifics thanks christian
sci.electronics	re microcontroller in article qppr innaqa dns nmsu edu mcole spock cole writes i would like to experiment with the intel family does anyone out there know of any good ftp sites that might have compiliers assemblers etc well it s not an ftp site but i got an number for signetics bbs the signetics bbs contain some pretty good items for the i am currently using the following files which i downloaded from them ml asm zip metalink s family macro assembler bootstrp zip hex file load and go using uart allows you to download your program into a ram and then execute from ram works great tell me if you want more details tutor zip tsr for feature help screens they have lots of coding examples assemblers and misc tools signetics bbs numbers are have fun mont pierce ham call km wt internet mont netcom com bands ibm vnet mont vnet ibm com modes cw ssb fm
sci.electronics	re help how to construct home built battery for rd grade sci report dean anneser anneser pwa b uucp wrote my yr old son has signed up to do a science report on batteries i was wondering if anyone could provide me with some information as to how to construct a home built battery in my grade school days i remember seeing the ice cube tray version but i don t remember what to use as a good electrolyte or what the easily obtainable metals were thank you in advance i remember watching a whole mr wizzard program on this subject when i was a kid the battery constructed on the program which made the biggest impression on me and generated the most power was made using a galvanized bucket for the zinc and a copper toilet tank float the electrolyte was sauerkraut donald borowski wa omi hewlett packard spokane division angels are able to fly because they take themselves so lightly g k chesterton
sci.electronics	need pinouts for a g dtmf decoder chip i bought this chip from suncoast technology and tried to build their dtmf decoder circuit but it s not working if anyone has the pinouts and possibly the voltage specs i d sure appreciated it if someone could fax email or snail mail a copy of the spec sheet for this chip that would be even better please email me if you can help thanks in advance mont pierce ham call km wt internet mont netcom com bands ibm vnet mont vnet ibm com modes cw ssb fm
sci.electronics	cicuit cellar ink extras trade fellow info junkies i have an extra cci real time programming embedded sensors storage and an extra cci voice control of telescope among other articles no labels no torn cut up or missing pages would like to trade for cci or cci or cci in same condition labels ok i mail mine you mail yours mutual trust kinda thang ok you don t actually throw them away do you thanx jeff babb babb sciences sdsu edu
sci.electronics	re need to find out number to a phone lin in article qub minn r rave larc nasa gov kludge grissom larc nasa gov scott dorsey writes in article bd dea ecs umass edu alee ecs umass edu writes greetings situation i have a phone jack mounted on a wall i don t know the number of the line and i don t want to call up the operator to place a trace on it question is there a certain device out there that i can use to find out the number to the line call a friend long distance collect ask to speak with yourself when the operator asks for you you won t be there so ask the operator to leave your number she ll read it out in the clear scott even easier my area supports dial this and a recording recites your number phone techs use it to verify an installed line gary gendel vice president current consulting assignment genashor corp mentor graphics corporation piney woods drive independence boulevard belle mead nj warren nj phone phone fax email garyg warren mentorg com
sci.electronics	does someone know what is the news group for ieee yxy usl edu thanks a lot
sci.electronics	looking for address of noise cancellation tech i am new to this newsgroup so i apologise if this is not the appropriate forum to ask this question i am looking for the address of noise cancellation technologies it is rather important so if you can help me in this regard please do thank you rosli khairon aludra usc edu
sci.electronics	re motorola xc rc and rc in article sgberg xu charon bloomington in us sgberg charon bloomington in us stefan berg writes i don t know why my fpu has an xc my original mhz fpu was label mc but it seems to work fine on my system p s or does it mean experimental chip instead of motorola chip the rule for the designations is that if it says mc that means it works exactly the way the datasheet book specifies if it says xc that means there is at least one known bug often these bugs are small and obscure you might never run into them in practice at least motorola admits it unlike certain other companies all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.electronics	re mysterious mosfet in article qug sinn g rave larc nasa gov kludge grissom larc nasa gov scott dorsey writes i have a mosfet pulled out of a trygon power supply for which i have no manual it s a motorola part with a date code and the number which the motorola folks assure me is a house number which they can t help me with any suggestions from folks out there i can t put it on a curve tracer to try to get an equivalent since it s completely shot scott since your mosfet is a vintage it s probably not a very good one by today s standards if you have an idea about its voltage and current ratings e g vdc a you can probably get away with replacing it with anything with better specs early mosfets had a gate source voltage rating of approximately vdcmax and they would usually turn completely on at vdc otherwise mosfets are not really mysterious they re more or less voltage controlled current sources if the mosfet in your circuit is used as an open loop voltage controlled current source you may have to experiment with various gain altering techniques bill willis willisw coe nw clemson edu
sci.electronics	common mode noise and small signals i have never worked with really small signals before and have a few questions about low level noise i have noticed that the waveform synthesizer that i am using analogic has some relatively large common mode noise on it i am using this synthesizer to null out another transient waveform and am amplifying the difference uv several hundred times the has about mvp p of common mode noise and this tends to make my measurements hard to repeat the noise is not quite in sync with line frequency and on a spectrum analyzer the main component is about hz how can i get rid of the noise when i look at the spectrum using an hp a audio range analyzer the noise goes away the minute i switch to isolation on the input i am guessing the anlayzer has a diff amp on the input since it will read accurately down to dc also if i use a differential amplifier ia to solve the problem how important is it to use one of these shield drivers an amp connected to the shield in sort of a feedback loop to remove trouble caused by different cable capacitances if anyone can suggest a good ic ia for use with transient signals with content from khz to about khz i would appreciate it
sci.electronics	re microcontroller mcole spock cole writes i would like to experiment with the intel family does anyone out there know of any good ftp sites that might have compiliers assemblers etc try lyman pppl gov pub brian day bday lambda msfc nasa gov new technology inc mission software development division opinions are my own
sci.electronics	re dayton hamfest yes it is the and in but does anyone have directions how to get there after i get to dayton thanks wayne martin
sci.electronics	re electronic odometers was used bmw qu just a few comments about the feasability of zipping up a bunch of miles on your electronic odometer with an oscillator i wouldn t expect to be able to do this not because the engineers at bmw are putting in anti fraud logic but just because an automobile is a noisy hostile environment for electronics and i would expect the software to be conservative if i were to design a microprocessor based odometer speedometer program it would have the following features just off the top of my head debouncing deglitching is this a real pulse or just a glitch smoothing the rate of change of speed cannot be too high this is a car not an electron top speed limit anything above mph is ridiculous must be electrical noise or contact bounce as for getting in and presetting the pins if this is the circuit board out of a bmw dashboard i seem to remember a single big chip with lotsa pins in the middle of the card good luck getting at the counter i wouldn t expect a high input frequency to damage the meter remember it s probably damped so it can t move too fast and is probably protected after all a car is an extremely hostile place for delicate electronics there used to be an app note in the national semiconductor linear databook that went into this in good detail jerry kaidor tr jerry dragoman com jkaidor synoptics com jerry kaidor
sci.electronics	next cube board monitor cable hi all quick question could someone please send me a pinout of the cable that goes between a next cube and the monitor also i am interested in the video signal sync type horz vert rate so any information on that would be greatly appreciated also thanks ryan brooks ryan agnus mcs mu edu
sci.electronics	re need to find out number to a phone line in article bd dea ecs umass edu alee ecs umass edu writes greetings situation i have a phone jack mounted on a wall i don t know the number of the line and i don t want to call up the operator to place a trace on it question is there a certain device out there that i can use to find out the number to the line thanks for any response al there is a number you can call which will return a synthesized voice telling you the number of the line unfortunately for the life of me i can t remember what it is the telephone technicians use it all the time we used to play around with this in our dorm rooms since there were multiple phone lines running between rooms sorry aaron
sci.electronics	mc sbi mixer hi i was wondering if anyone would be able to help me on twwo related subjects i am currently learning about am fm receivers and recieving circuits i understand a lot of things but a few things i am confused abuot the first is the mixer to mix the rf and local oscillator frequencies to make the if does anyone have any cicruit diagrams as simple as possible for this kind of mixer i have come across a mc sbl mixer chip but i have not been able to find it in any catalogs active etc along the same note are there any simple fm receiver circuits anyone may have stashed away somewhere and they couold let me see p s any really good books on am fm theory along with detailed electrical diagrams would help a lot i have seen a lot of theory books with no circuits and a lot of circuit books with no theory but one without the other does not help thanks mark musone
sci.electronics	sources for intel d c fb i am in the midst of designing a project which requires two motors and an led illuminator driven with pulse width modulation i m using the and i understand that the fb version has a programmable counter array that can essentially be set and forgotten to do the pwm the problems is that variant is difficult to come by i need two or three of the d prefix ceramic window version for development and then lots of the p prefix plastic otp for later production i ve tried avnet arrow and pioneer they might have them but i m looking for samples at this point and they re not too willing to provide them i would buy them but these vendors have minimums any help is appreciated mark e levy fermilab bitnet levy fnal unix is to computing internet levy fnald fnal gov as an etch a sketch is to art hepnet span fnald levy vms
sci.electronics	re pinout needed for til in article segal corolla segal rtsg mot com gary segal writes i ve recently picked up some til display chips but i can t find any information on them it seems they are no longer made by ti and i don t have an old enough data book it appears to have a dot matrix led display capable of showing one hex digit it is in a pin dip package but pins and are not present if you have any information on this part pinout power requirments functions please send me e mail thank you gary segal motorola inc segal oscar rtsg mot com cellular infrastructure division we are standing here only to gaze at the wind pin function led supply voltage latch data input b latch data input a left decimal point cathode latch strobe input omitted common gnd blanking input omitted right decimal point cathode omitted latch data input d latch data input c logic supply voltage v latch strobe input pin when low the data in the latches follow the data on the latch data inputs when high the data in the latches will not change if the display is blanked and then restored while the enable input is high the previous character will again be displayed blanking input pin when high the display is blanked regardless of the levels of the other inputs when low a character is displayed as determined by the data in the latches the blanking input may be pulsed for intensity modulation latch data inputs pins data on these inputs are entered into the latches when the enable input is low the binary weights of these inputs are a b c d decimal point cathodes pins these leds are not connected to the logic chip if a decimal point is used an external resistor or other current limiting mechanism must be connected in series with it led supply pin this connection permits the user to save on regulated vcc current by using a separate led supply or it may be externally connected to the logic supply vcc logic supply vcc pin separate vcc connection for the logic chip common ground pin this is the vegative termnal for all logic and led currents except for the decimal points john jott dickens helios nd edu
sci.electronics	modulation over rf i would like to modulate a khz squarewave over rf this is for a rf remote control project the squarewave has a high of v and low of v thanks tron t t t t t t t t t
sci.electronics	need source for old radio shack stereo amp chip last week i asked for help in getting an old homemade amp working with my sun cd rom drive it turns out that the channel i was testing with was burned out in the amp the other channel works fine so now i need a new amplifier chip my local radio shack no longer carries components the chip is a pin sip labelled with ba and then below that does anyone have a source thanks bill morrow clinical neurosciences university of calgary e mail morrow cns ucalgary ca voice fax hospital drive nw calgary alberta canada t n n
sci.electronics	re help how to construct home built battery for rd grade sci report in article c qui cf spk hp com borowski spk hp com don t borowski writes dean anneser anneser pwa b uucp wrote my yr old son has signed up to do a science report on batteries i was wondering if anyone could provide me with some information as to how to construct a home built battery in my grade school days i remember snip i haven t been following this so i m sorry if somebody already mentioned this but you could grab a lemon i think potatoes work too but i m not sure a strip of copper and a strip of zinc i think you can get the metal in a hardware store or hobby shop maybe stick the strips in the lemon so they don t touch and you ll get a measurable voltage not a lot but hey it s a lemon as i recall we had to hook something like ten of these things to get an appreciable amount of current because of the mondo internal resistance but if you just need a demo you might get it to run a tiny fan or something mark s underwood ee student university of kentucky lab assistant boyd hall microlab a tiny little division of uk library microlabs e mail msunde mik uky edu
sci.electronics	re need pinouts for a g dtmf decoder chip in article montc qs a wb netcom com mont netcom com mont pierce writes i bought this chip from suncoast technology and tried to build their dtmf decoder circuit but it s not working if anyone has the pinouts and possibly the voltage specs i d sure appreciated it i presume it is the m from teltone corporation pin description input input gs gain select through use of feed back resistor vref reference voltage output about vdd connect to vss connect to vss osc clock input osc clock output connect crystal across pins and vss oe output enable logic high allows data output q data output q data output q data output q data output std delayed steering output any other company would call this data valid est early steering output sort of like i m starting to hear a tone st gt steering input guard time output vdd power supply v min v max current ma typ ma max but you really should have bought the motorola part from me i still have them in stock john if someone could fax email or snail mail a copy of the spec sheet for this chip that would be even better please email me if you can help thanks in advance mont pierce ham call km wt internet mont netcom com bands ibm vnet mont vnet ibm com modes cw ssb fm
sci.electronics	pattern generator wanted i repair a lot of monitors here and i d like to know where i can get a pattern generator or a circuit for one that will provide mda ega and vga signals using a whole pc to do this takes up too much space on my bench and is somewhat less than portable i guess i could sit down and design something but i don t have the time right now any reasonable suggestions would be appreciated tnx tg tony grimwood zl ttg make no friendship with an elephant biomedical engineering services keeper unless you have room to university of auckland entertain an elephant auckland new zealand saadi of shiraz
sci.electronics	fm transmitter can anyone please email a diagram or give me details of an ftp site where there is a diagram of a simple small fm mono voice transmitter for trasnmitting in the range preferably above mhz only a short distance requiered and frequency variation no too important but must run from v or smaller dc supply thanx in advance monty howeg uk ac man cs howeg cs man ac uk save the vinyl
sci.electronics	re suggestions on audio relays in article c qsbf iek ms uky edu billq ms uky edu billy quinn writes i built a little project using the radio shack vdc relays to switch audio i got pretty bad clicks when the thing switched i was doing most of the common things one is supposed to do when using relays and nothing seemed to get rid of the clicks my question is is there a good relay relay circuit that i can use for switching audio so that there will be no noise of any kind on the audio lines i will appreciate any advice or references to advice also exact part numbers company names etc for the relays will help are you switching high level signals or low level signals like pre amp out level signals also are the clicks you mentioning the big clack that happens when it switches or are you refering to contact bounce how are you driving the relays ttl gate output switching transistor how are the relays connected to what you are driving need more specifics to answer your question
sci.electronics	specs on eprom data formats i need the specs on various eprom data formats such as intel hex motorola s jedec etc can anyone out there provide such info or a pointer to it the one i want the most is intel hex mike
sci.electronics	wanted tcm chips small quantities does anyone know if a source for the tcm modem chips as used in the baycom and my pmp modems ideally something that is geared toward hobbyists small quantity mail order etc for years we ve been buying them from a distributor marshall by the hundreds for pmp kits but orders have dropped to the point where we can no longer afford to offer this service and all of the distributors i ve checked have some crazy minimum order or so i d like to find a source for those still interested in building pmp kits any suggestions andrew c payne dec cambridge research lab
sci.electronics	re radar detector detectors brian day bday lambda msfc nasa gov wrote on december it was illegal to operate a radar detector in the state of virginia if one got caught one got fined ask me how i know the federal communications act of made it legal for you to operate a radio receiver of any kind on any frequency including x k and ka bands in the united states the electronic communications privacy act of restricted the fca of by making it illegal to receive the land mobile telephone service including i believe cellular phones no restriction was placed on receiving radar or curiously cordless phones enforcement of the virginia law is in violation of the fca of if you have lots of time and money and a lawyer which i m not you can argue this in a federal court and try to have the law overturned i can hardly wait to see the responses to this one but somebody had to say it lockheed sanders may disagree so these are solely the opinions of scott l babb babb rapnet sanders lockheed com we didn t inherit the earth from our parents we are borrowing it from our children
sci.electronics	building a uv flashlight yes i know it sounds crazy call it an urge call it what you want just don t ask why anyway i d like to build a uv flashlight cheaply flashlight means it should be reasonably portable but could have a power pack if necessary my main question is the bulb where can i get uv bulbs do they need a lot of power etc etc i m not too concerned with whether it s long wave or short wave but hey if anyone has a cheap source of bulbs i ll take both one other thing a friend of mine mentioned something about near uv light being cheaper to get at than actual uv light does anyone know what he was referring to thanks much john hawkinson jhawk panix com
sci.electronics	circuit cellar ink address is cci still published if so does anyone have their address
sci.electronics	re radar detector detectors in article apr rapnet sanders lockheed com babb rapnet sanders lockheed com scott babb writes the federal communications act of made it legal for you to operate a radio receiver of any kind on any frequency including x k and ka bands in the united states the electronic communications privacy act of restricted the fca of by making it illegal to receive the land mobile telephone service including i believe cellular phones illegal to receive land mobile telephone service don t you have to have a mobile reciever to even have land mobile telephone service what about ship to shore telephone service no restriction was placed on receiving radar or curiously cordless phones enforcement of the virginia law is in violation of the fca of isin t there some kind of rule regulation law whatever in some juristictions that prohibit the use of police band recievers in vehicles and that radar transmissions are included in the police band so they get covered by the same regulation
sci.electronics	references i ve got the same problem i can t dig up any info on the jumper settings on the hd drives can anyone recommend a reference book s on the subject rather than a quick fix type answer i was going to start hooking up things and logging the results but the prospect of a ten second smoke test deters me thanks kirk cowen via dlg pro v
sci.electronics	re motorola xc rc and rc in article c qwv bz zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes in article sgberg xu charon bloomington in us sgberg charon bloomington in us stefan berg writes i don t know why my fpu has an xc my original mhz fpu was label mc but it seems to work fine on my system p s or does it mean experimental chip instead of motorola chip the rule for the designations is that if it says mc that means it works exactly the way the datasheet book specifies if it says xc that means there is at least one known bug often these bugs are small and obscure you might never run into them in practice xc units are often pre production sample devices those are normally distributed for evaluation as freebies and are not guaranteed to meet every spec at least motorola admits it unlike certain other companies yep that s for sure that s one thing i like most about motorola aaron
sci.electronics	re microcontroller in article apr lambda msfc nasa gov bday lambda msfc nasa gov brian day writes mcole spock cole writes i would like to experiment with the intel family does anyone out there know of any good ftp sites that might have compiliers assemblers etc try lyman pppl gov pub great this site is a complete shadow of the signetics bbs directory thanks brian mont pierce ham call km wt internet mont netcom com bands ibm vnet mont vnet ibm com modes cw ssb fm
sci.electronics	re exploding tv just a thought maybe it possibly has to do with the fact that it is an emerson i ve got an emerson vcr which is in the series returned it six times for various and never the same problems got tired of taking it back and fixed it myself the hi fi window was a bit off something like the hi fi audio fine tuning when i was a wal mart associate in we had at least one returned as defective every single day how s that for reliability face it emerson can make audio stuff albeit not of premium quality but they can t make anything as complex as video equipment with reliability imho please no flames just had to share my emerson disaster in the light of this exploding tv jc la vie c est une plage caffine not present error jmc engr uark edu this message printed on abort retry fail recycled electricity tangerine
sci.electronics	re need to find out number to a phone line joseph mich krzeszewsk writes msg id quomg f m bigboote wpi edu posted apr gmt org worcester polytechnic institute well this is my second try at posting on this subject here goes in texas corpus christi at least if you pick up the phone and dial the phone company will read the number of the phone you are on back to you i believe the service department uses this to make certain they are repairing the correct lines when they open the big junction boxes i don t know if it will work but you can give it a try good luck where i live i use bctel the number to dial is for the same result sean oliver internet address a mindlink bc ca mindlink bbs
sci.electronics	mhz oscilloscope for sale i m giving up hardware design and am selling my oscilloscope bk precision model b mhz dual trace barely used firm fry s sells it for tax prefer people in silicon valley so i don t have to ship it mtrek netcom com
sci.electronics	info nec ab amp ic w amp secs possible pspice models hi being a electronic engineering student with only electronic ii under my belt i find myself needing to build a moderate wattage audio amp so i ll throw out a couple of question for the vast knowledge of the net please explain how watts are calculated in audio amp circuits no not p i e just how it relates to one of the following ai current gain av voltage gain ap power gain or whatever i already have a wonderful cheap i e schematic for a w amp but i would like to cross improve the circuit the problem is that the parts list has ic and ic as nec ab amplifiers they look like pin sip packages with a heatsink this schematic was published in a mag so it may be non existant now anyway i tried looking up a replacement in the latest digi key cat and found it not listed the closes i could figure was a pin sip as tda bu anyone got any ideas i thought hey i can rin a pspice simulation using opamp models yea great it worked but i guess the wasn t made for high power amps as a result i got a voltage gain of mv v worse than i started with does anyone have a pspice ckt file with cheap yet good gain how about some models for some of the chips listed in this e mail any ascii chip info you guys can send me i m open to suggestions ideas comments help please e mail since i have little time to search the news and i ll post if there s and interest john ibm ee majors do it best atari john d zitterkopf rules jdz ra msstate edu jdz msstate bitnet aol zitt aol com jdz isis msstate edu
sci.electronics	re radar detector detectors in article apr julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes no restriction was placed on receiving radar or curiously cordless phones enforcement of the virginia law is in violation of the fca of isin t there some kind of rule regulation law whatever in some juristictions that prohibit the use of police band recievers in vehicles and that radar transmissions are included in the police band so they get covered by the same regulation those rules regulations laws would be subject to the same attack that they are attempting to preempt federal authority to regulate or not radio communications of course as the original poster noted court challenges of this kind can get expensive all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.electronics	re power signal surges in home gstovall crchh nosubdomain nodomain greg stovall writes anyway over the weekend i was resting on the sofa in between chores and noticed that i briefly picked up what sounded like ham radio traffic over my stereo and television even though both were off also all the touch sensitive lights in my house start going wacko cycling through their four brightness states i presume that some ham operator with an illegal amplifier drove past my house i live on a busy thoroughfare would this be a correct presumption what kind of power must he be putting out to cause the effects the affected equipment is about feet from the road hams can legally run up to watts it is very unlikely however that a ham would be running that kind of power from a car ham rigs for cars put out around watts it is possible that a watt radio would cause interference to consumer electronic feet away most tvs stereos and vcrs have very poor rf shielding if you experience the problem frequently it may be caused by a ham cber or other radio operator in a base station nearby the interference may have been caused by a radio transmitter used for other purposes such as police fire etc if you heard voices over your stereo i think you are correct in assuming that the source is an rf transmitter if you have frequent trouble you may want to try the rf ferrite chokes available at radio shack the interference is probably being picked up by your speaker wires and those chokes can be installed on the wires very easily without cutting them good instructions are included with the chokes if that does not solve the problem you may want to search your neighborhood for a radio operator look for antennas on the roof or car talk to him her about your problem there are things a radio operator can do to reduce interference randall rhea informix software inc project manager mis sales marketing systems uunet pyramid infmx randall
sci.electronics	how can uf be different from two in series i was looking at the amps diagram for sony receivers and i was amazed to find a difference between the us and canadian model on the capacitor s that hangs off the output to the speakers to speaker identical both models from amp idnetical both models canadian model only us model and world wide model only candian model only gound the board itself is also identical with room for all three caps the us can versions is clearly indicated in both places how does that make sense is essentially for caps there are just standard caps no special w type precision please explain this michael golan mg cs princeton edu
sci.electronics	need help finding dip switch settings and jumper settings for sx motherboard hello net i have a sx motherboard with the phoenix bios an on board ide controller port and two on board serial ports unfortunately i don t have a manual for this beast and i would like to be able to disable the ide controller in order to use the mfm controller i have the board says it is made in korea and it uses the chips chipset if anyone can give me a clue as to how to go about configuring the board so as not to use the ide controller or how to go about finding out how to do it their help would be greatly appreciated thank you in advance for your assistance please mail buhrow nfbcal org with your responses as my news feed is rather tenuous thank you very much brian buhrow nfbcal org
sci.electronics	needed volt circuit flasher i am looking for a source for a circuit sequence flasher input volts ac amps output sequence to channels knob to vary frequency max amps per leg switch to put all channels on full time please email any assistance you can provide randy email randy ve bc ampr ab ca randy j pointkoski p eng o compression technologies ave
sci.electronics	help mc a real time clock standby mode i am having trouble obtaining the specified standby current drain from a mc a real time clock has anyone out there had some experience in doing this the specs call for a few sequences to be met before standby mode is activated and are a bit hard to decipher on that but i thought that i had it worked out however with a khz crystal the lowest current drain i can acheive at v vcc is ua this is three times the specified maximum under the conditions i am attempting to create i have done the following things made sure that reset is asserted for trlh after powerup and as is low during this time made sure that there is a cycle on as after the negation of rd or wr during which stby was asserted what am i doing wrong thanks very much martin
sci.electronics	help wanted could someone please tell me if a decoder is the same as a to demultiplexer i know how to link of these to get an output circuit but how do i link of these to make a multiplexer sorry if this seems like a lame question but i m only a newbie to electronics and i have to do this circuit please make any mail as droolproof as possible thanx taro ogawa u student canberra edu au
sci.electronics	re dmm advice needed what the world needs is a meter that won t let you change ranges or turn it on off with a lead stuck in the amps jack a little bit of clever plastic detailing would take care of this and make the world safer for electricans anyway not that i ve ever put a meter on the wrong range into a live circuit no not me not more than a dozen times anyway bill bills inqmind bison mb ca the inquiring mind bbs winnipeg manitoba the fluke beeps at you if you try to take it out of a current measuring range while there is still a lead plugged in to the current sense socket this should solve your problem unless you are in a noisy environment johnh electronics department school of mpce macquarie university sydney australia email johnh mpce mq edu au ph fax
sci.electronics	re fujitsu hdd the fujitsu uses what is known as an smd interface storage module device a lot of older minis used it sun still does on their server models there are several different speeds of smd and i think that the fuji drive you have is rated at about mb sec thats megabits there used to be several companies that made couplers for the pc interphase in texas being one but i think that the market pretty much has dried up controllers for this type of drive are readily available for vme buses though rumor has it that there is a smd to scsi adapter available but i think that it was designed for slower smd devices in other words if you have a pc or mac that drive is pretty much dogmeat cheers corwin
sci.electronics	pwm control thru software currently i am using the microcontroller with external eprom in order to drive the dc motor with direction i use the pulse width modultion thru software control assembly language programming however i am afraid that they will be overheads and thus alter the pulse timing my question is is the software pwm control reliable i understand that port is a latch and so i vary the duty cycle by setting it high first and at the desire duty cycle then i set low any improments
sci.electronics	re looking for electronics dept info in austrailia in apr worak kaist ac kr hjkim hyowon pusan ac kr writes hi netters i am looking for the list of universities in austrailia which has electronics department i am considering to spend a year for research in austrailia about communication area i am interested in mobile communication areas and spread spectrum communications etc but i don t have any information about austrailian universities can anybody recommend a good university in co mmunic ation area any comments will be welcomed bye jaehyung kim well i honestly don t know if they are good bad or indifferent but there is an electronics dept here at la trobe la trobe university bundoora vic australia fax chairman is prof ian white sorry don t have an email address graham b
sci.electronics	hatley pirbhai help hello has anyone used the requirements analsys methodology hatley pirbhai i am a british final year real time degree student and as a project i am covering this methodology i would be very grateful to anyone who could give me their views on this method please mail me if you feel you can help and i will send you my questions thanks in advance david phelps nwz h chelt ac uk
sci.electronics	oem weight scale does someone sell oem scale units with either analog or digital output i need something like the scales used in supermarket cash registers with a dynamic range of a few pounds and reasonable accuracy any sources david david prutchi hc dt washington university prutchi mesun wustl edu campus box dp cec wustl edu one brookings drive prutchi eng tau ac il st louis mo
sci.electronics	digital answering mach does anybody know anything about the chips d a d a d a chips from dsp telecommunications inc i d greatly appreciate information about price pinouts and peripherals regards henrik bohre
sci.electronics	re need to find out number to a phone since i have seen various different numbers to dial to get your number read back to you by the phone company could someonepost a list or point me to a book where i could get a list of all the different numbers for the u s failing that could someone tell me ohio s i don t speak for wright mvanhorn desire wright edu state i just give them wright state university huge amounts of money
sci.electronics	re need to find out number to a phone line in article bd dea ecs umass edu alee ecs umass edu writes greetings situation i have a phone jack mounted on a wall i don t know the number of the line and i don t want to call up the operator to place a trace on it question is there a certain device out there that i can use to find out the number to the line thanks for any response al do you get a dial tone when you plug a phone into the jack if not then the line is possibly disconnected from the nearest telco junction box if you do get a dial tone then surely the telco is sending a bill for the line to someplace or somebody are you sure that what you are doing is on the level sounds to me like you are just trying to get at somebody s unlisted number fess up keith keith boyd ncr mcpd cola nothing could be finer than huntin and platt springs rd and fishin in south carolina me west cola s c go gamecocks keith boyd columbiasc ncr com vp or from uunet uunet ncrcom ncrcae clodii keith
sci.electronics	re rams roms with ale latches for s in article qg sinnokf sheoak ucnv edu au j pethybridge jeff redgum ucnv edu au writes i asked this a year ago but i am still looking i am getting sick of having to use a hc or a check out xicor s new goodie in the april th edition of eetimes x c an k e prom with built in latch and bootloader setup you hook it directly to your power it up the prom initialises the serial port on the you load in your code via rxd this gets blatted onto the e prom then you reset and run i m sure dallas also does something like this too i suppose it would boil down to relative prices and the dallas part freeing up p p completely i wonder if anyone has ever managed to design a single sided pcb with an eprom sram and no links cheers mike
sci.electronics	homemade projector automation hi all i m an assistant manager at a local art theater here in columbus i d like to expand our show automation a bit namely add the capability to use cue tapes to bring the houselights up our current automation consoles date from the early s and don t provide this function we already have the combo failsafe contact rollers to read the cuetapes and our dimmer system will raise the houselights when its fade up control circuit vac is momentarily closed for at least second i ve tried wiring the dimmer control to a v relay activated when the cue tape completes the circuit low tech and simple but there s one problem in order to get the second pulse there needs to be a sh load of cuetape on the film mm runs at feet per minute so to get a second pulse there needs to be at least inches of solid cuetape ideally i would like to use a single cross cue to accomplish this function a single strip of cuetape perpendicular to the length of the film this would give a pulse of approximately of a second what i need is a circuit to detect the short cue and activate the relay for around second the ability to adjust how long the relay is activated would be nice i figure this would require an rc circuit of some sort i m sure some of you already have the solution figured out in your heads any suggestions and schematics would be appreciated thanks mark fontana of all the arts the cinema is mark a fontana the most important computer and information science v i lenin the ohio state university
sci.electronics	re cicuit cellar ink extras trade in article babb larc sdsu edu babb sciences sdsu edu j babb writes fellow info junkies i have an extra cci real time programming embedded sensors storage and an extra cci voice control of telescope among other articles no labels no torn cut up or missing pages would like to trade for cci or cci or cci in same condition labels ok i mail mine you mail yours mutual trust kinda thang ok you don t actually throw them away do you thanx jeff babb babb sciences sdsu edu i have also been trying to complete my collection i have an extra cci communications and a applications in the arts both in mint condition i would like to trade for or buy the following and thanks david david prutchi hc dt washington university prutchi mesun wustl edu campus box dp cec wustl edu one brookings drive st louis mo
sci.electronics	decent cheap mhz scopes any info on modern mhz or better dual trace scopes would be appreciated should i buy a used one or a new one and where please e mail thanks in advance ken ken gravenstede performance technologies incorporated kng pt com science parkway rochester new york uupsi ptsys kng
sci.electronics	re food dehydrators does anybody out there have one of those food dehydrators i ve been seeing all over late night tv recently i was wondering if they use forced air heat or both if there s heat involved anybody know what temperature they run at my wife would like one and i m not inclined to pay for a box a fan and a heater seems to me you should be able to throw a dehydrator together for just a few bucks heck the technology is only what years old yeah but years ago you couldn t buy it from a guy with sprayed on hair
sci.electronics	re how can uf be different from two in series in apr princeton edu mg cs princeton edu michael golan writes i was looking at the amps diagram for sony receivers and i was amazed to find a difference between the us and canadian model on the capacitor s that hangs off the output to the speakers to speaker identical both models from amp idnetical both models canadian model only us model and world wide model only candian model only gound the board itself is also identical with room for all three caps the us can versions is clearly indicated in both places how does that make sense is essentially for caps there are just standard caps no special w type precision please explain this michael golan mg cs princeton edu the only explanation i can think of is that two capacitors in series can handle twice the output voltage sometimes two elco s in antiseries you know positive sides facing eachother are used to obtain a large capacitor that can handle positive and negative voltages as well so there probably is no design philosophical reason but a production cost one best s wouter
sci.electronics	hc public domain software does anyone know of an ftp site where i might find public domain software for the motorola hc microprocessor i am looking for a basic interpreter compilier or a c compiler thanks in advance ed murashie ed murashie us mail beckman instruments inc phone diagnostic system group fax s kraemer blvd w internet murashiea mail beckman com brea ca
sci.electronics	realistic pro scanner for sale was sell for article of alt radio scanner path usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu aj from aj cleveland freenet edu aaron m barnes newsgroups alt radio scanner subject realistic pro for sale was sell for obo date apr gmt organization case western reserve university cleveland ohio usa lines message id r oo du usenet ins cwru edu nntp posting host slc ins cwru edu hello i have a realistic pro scanner for sale here is a small desc ription programible chanels fully detailed backlighted digital display headphone jack antenna jack removable telescoping antenna auto search coverage mhz mhz mhz it originally cost but i will sell for thank you buchanan in fear the goverment that fears your guns without the nd amendment we cannot guarantee ou r freedoms aj cleveland freenet edu buchanan in fear the goverment that fears your guns without the nd amendment we cannot guarantee ou r freedoms aj cleveland freenet edu
sci.electronics	adcom gtp ii ir sensor repeater spec s does anyone know the details of the interface wire din for the ir remote sensor wire ir repeater for the adcom gtp ii preamp the adcom part numbers are the xr ii spm ii and ira ii a cursory physical examination of the pre amp connector indicates that the connector pin din may provide viewed from connector front pin v ma pin v ma pin signal ground pin demodulated signal v pp polarity ma drive pin signal to drive repeater led drives through ohm resistor v pp i assume that the repeater connectors mini plugs drive the ir repeater led s directly true can anyone fill in the s thanks john rasper hewlett packard col johnr col hp com p o box colorado springs co
sci.electronics	re what is zero db marrevola rediris es wrote in article apr bnr ca moffatt bnr ca john thomson writes joseph chiu josephc cco caltech edu wrote and the measure of current amp is actually named after both the amp company and the amphenol company both companies revolutionized electronics by simulatenously realizing that the performance of connectors and sockets were affected by the amount of current running through the wires sorry the unit for current is the ampere which is the name of a french man named ampere who studied electrical current the term amp is just an abbreviation of it the company amp came after the ampere unit was already in use the ohmite company was the first to characterize resistances by numbers thus our use of the ohms i don t know about this one but it doesn t sound right are you two joking is the entire internet flaming you two ahh now i remember that ohmite company was the first introducing the pink colored resistor only for electronics working females manuel arrevola velasco true e mail manolo taf fundesco es dod yes i have taken a bit of flame on this one i must ve been half asleep when i posted a response to joseph greggo greg moffatt moffatt bnr ca bell northern research inc ottawa canada my opinions not bnr s
sci.electronics	re radar detector detectors in article apr julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca wayne smith writes in article apr rapnet sanders lockheed com babb rapnet sanders lockheed com scott babb writes no restriction was placed on receiving radar or curiously cordless phones enforcement of the virginia law is in violation of the fca of isin t there some kind of rule regulation law whatever in some juristictions that prohibit the use of police band recievers in vehicles and that radar transmissions are included in the police band so they get covered by the same regulation what do you mean by police band there is no such thing anyway radar detectors work in shared bands if you applied your test all of those radar operated door openers in malls would be illegal one of the great problems here is that there are too many ill educated read illiterate people making too many laws about subjects on which they are incompetent there may well be laws refereing to police bands they are almost certainly local in scope state or county created by well meaning but incompetent idiots unfortunaltely laws do not have to be sensible or even enforceable lawmakers exist to pass laws and will continue to do so until the day where you are faced with death for not doing x and amputation of all your limbs for doing x the choice will be yours note no smiley philip
sci.electronics	los angeles freeway traffic reports while driving through the middle of nowhere i picked up knbr am a clear channel station based in los angeles they had an ad claiming that they were able to get traffic flow information from all of the thousands of traffic sensors that caltrans has placed under the pavement does caltrans sell this info does knbr have an exclusive what s the deal doug former l a commuter claar
sci.electronics	re suggestions on audio relays in article c r r id megatest com alung megatest com aaron lung writes in article c qsbf iek ms uky edu billq ms uky edu billy quinn writes i built a little project using the radio shack vdc relays to switch audio i got pretty bad clicks when the thing switched i was doing most of the common things one is supposed to do when using relays and nothing seemed to get rid of the clicks my question is is there a good relay relay circuit that i can use for switching audio so that there will be no noise of any kind on the audio lines i will appreciate any advice or references to advice also exact part numbers company names etc for the relays will help are you switching high level signals or low level signals like pre amp out level signals also are the clicks you mentioning the big clack that happens when it switches or are you refering to contact bounce how are you driving the relays ttl gate output switching transistor how are the relays connected to what you are driving need more specifics to answer your question as a general rule no relay will cleanly switch audio if you try to tranfer the circuit with the contacts the noise you hear is due to the momentary opening and closing of the path the noiseless way of transfering audio is to ground the circuit in high impedance audio circuits a resistive t is constructed close to characteristic impedance of the circuit grounding the imputs connected to the t transfers the audio in low impedance circuits transformers are usually used and the inputs are shorted out or grounded secondaries are paralleled at the characteristic impedance sometimes if it is necessary to actually switch audio a second contact is used to momentarily short the circuit output for the duration of the switching time telephone relays are handy because contacts can be adjusted to make before break and vica versa but i haven t seen any of these for years nowadys switching is done electronically with op amps etc a novel circuit i used to build was a primitive optical isolator it consists of a resistive photocell and a lamp all packaged in a tube when the lamp is off the cell is high resistance turn the lamp on and the resistance lowers passing the audio once again this device in a t switches the audio varying the lamp resistance give a remote volume control use variable resisters and you have a mixer lots of luck tom tom wagner audio visual technician malaspina college nanaimo british columbia loc fax callsign ve gda weapon kentucky rifle snail mail to site q c rr nanaimo british columbia canada v r x i do not recyle i keep everything all standard disclaimers apply
sci.electronics	correction of last followup re relays in article apr mala bc ca wagner mala bc ca tom wagner wizzard of old audio visual equipment nanaimo campus writes in article c r r id megatest com alung megatest com aaron lung writes in article c qsbf iek ms uky edu billq ms uky edu billy quinn writes i built a little project using the radio shack vdc relays to switch audio i got pretty bad clicks when the thing switched i was doing most of the common things one is supposed to do when using relays and nothing seemed to get rid of the clicks my question is is there a good relay relay circuit that i can use for switching audio so that there will be no noise of any kind on the audio lines i will appreciate any advice or references to advice also exact part numbers company names etc for the relays will help are you switching high level signals or low level signals like pre amp out level signals also are the clicks you mentioning the big clack that happens when it switches or are you refering to contact bounce how are you driving the relays ttl gate output switching transistor how are the relays connected to what you are driving need more specifics to answer your question as a general rule no relay will cleanly switch audio if you try to tranfer the circuit with the contacts the noise you hear is due to the momentary opening and closing of the path the noiseless way of transfering audio is to ground the circuit in high impedance audio circuits a resistive t is constructed close to characteristic impedance of the circuit grounding the imputs connected to the t transfers the audio in low impedance circuits transformers are usually used and the inputs are shorted out or grounded secondaries are paralleled at the characteristic impedance sometimes if it is necessary to actually switch audio a second contact is used to momentarily short the circuit output for the duration of the switching time telephone relays are handy because contacts can be adjusted to make before break and vica versa but i haven t seen any of these for years nowadys switching is done electronically with op amps etc a novel circuit i used to build was a primitive optical isolator it consists of a resistive photocell and a lamp all packaged in a tube when the lamp is off the cell is high resistance turn the lamp on and the resistance lowers passing the audio once again this device in a t switches the audio varying the lamp resistance give a remote volume control use variable resisters and you have a mixer lots of luck tom tom wagner audio visual technician malaspina college nanaimo british columbia loc fax callsign ve gda weapon kentucky rifle snail mail to site q c rr nanaimo british columbia canada v r x i do not recyle i keep everything all standard disclaimers apply tom tom wagner audio visual technician malaspina college nanaimo british columbia loc fax callsign ve gda weapon kentucky rifle snail mail to site q c rr nanaimo british columbia canada v r x i do not recyle i keep everything all standard disclaimers apply
sci.electronics	correction re audio relay followup gremilins have attacked my keyboard and the correction to my followup on audio relays got fouled up varying lamp resistance should read varying lamp voltage tom tom wagner audio visual technician malaspina college nanaimo british columbia loc fax callsign ve gda weapon kentucky rifle snail mail to site q c rr nanaimo british columbia canada v r x i do not recyle i keep everything all standard disclaimers apply
sci.electronics	re building a uv flashlight you can get a little uv by putting a heavy uv filter deep purple in front of an ordinary flashlight bulb the brightest you can get my father used a setup like this in law enforcement work circa good uv blacklight bulbs work like fluorescent bulbs i d proceed by getting a cheap battery powered fluorescent light then going to an electrical supply house and finding a uv bulb that would fit it michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
sci.electronics	re telephone controlled power bar needed i had a similar idea for a fax answering machine switch to put both machines on one line you order distinctive ringing from your phone company this is month here you get a second unpublished phone number when someone calls this number your phone rings with short rings instead of long rings you set up your answering machine on rings and your fax on six rings you d give out the new as your fax a device would measure the length of rings when it detects a short ring it turns off your answering machine five rings later your fax picks up the call this should be cheaper and more elegant than the switches now available but that s not what i did i m giving out the new to my friends and customers this should leave the old for telemarketers etc i won t pick up the phone when i hear the long rings why my thoughts are my own when they are in but when they are out they are another s susannah martin hanged for witchcraft thomas david kehoe kehoe netcom com
sci.electronics	atari processors does anyone know what processor the atari used what i m looking for is th e pin outs for the atari the schematics for it it does anyone have any idea where i could find this or any related information this is very impor tant also are the rom chips that were used fo rthe games still available or were they propreitary please email me with any responces as this is very important thanks a million btw anyone who works has worked for atari i could really use your help with i nfo on the old please email me if you are willing to help me thatnks alot peter
sci.electronics	re dmm advice needed i ve had my fluke a here at work for just over years now it is a wonderful meter several colleagues here have some of the newer fluke meters though i still would just as soon hang on to my the a is the s digial analog to the simpson analog dmm of the s there was is an b that had extended frequency response i ve got a nifty little pen shaped meter made by soar that i keep in my toolbox at home i ve had that for six or seven years now and only replaced the batteries a couple of timees it is more than adequate for day to day hobby use i think soar oems their stuff for a number of vendors some of jdr microdevices stuff looks rather similar to soar s bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown oh usa phone wtm uhura neoucom edu n wed
sci.electronics	re help how to reduce the rpms of a boxer fan yes you increase the rpm slip of a boxer type fan by installing a capacitor in series with the fan s power supply the air flow of small inch fans can be reduced by about by using a to uf capacitor use a good grade nonpolarized unit with working voltage rating around volts note that some impriical study is usually required to experimentally determine the best size capacitor for a given application for dc powered applications try the radio shack volt box fan it can run and start reliably from as low as about vdc it is exceptionally quiet but at admittedly low flow i wish i knew who made the fans for radio shack bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown oh usa phone wtm uhura neoucom edu n wed
sci.electronics	eeg kit awhile back someone posted some information on where you can get kits to build an eeg does anyone remember where you could get this i m very interested in getting some info on this thanks in advance eric cantrell sauron msfc nasa
sci.electronics	re radar detector detectors it is illegal to use anything you eavedropped on for a business or for an illegal use jurisdictions that ban radar detectors or police monitors are essentially making the claim that there is no other reason for a radar detector or police radio monitor the results of fighting these claims in courts have been mixed the federal courts are not anxious to intervene and state courts have sometimes held that the feds have exclusive jurisdiction and sometimes they have not a lot of state courts do not have enough imagination to see any use for a radar detector besides avoiding law enforcement action for speeding when you buy a radar detector amongst the guarrantees instructions explanations and other detritus is an invitation to join an association dedicated to preserving your right to use a radar detector i promise i am not making this up i do not think radar detector manufacturers would be making any headway at all in courtrooms if police departments enforced speed laws with a strict eye to public safety and a blind eye to the fund raiser aspect of tickets mike coyne
sci.electronics	re dayton hamfest yes take interstate i to the route exit go south on about miles trun right on shiloh springs road the hamvention is at the harrah arena which is about mile west and on the north side of the road parking at the arena is limited lodging is probably entirely booked up within a mile radius good luck i i x mall s springs it is possible to park at the mall to the west there are shuttle busses running between the arena and the mall if possible get a montgomery county oh map from your local aaa office it should be free if you are an aaa member if you don t already have definite plans now is not a particularly good time to start to think about going to the hamvention bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown oh usa phone wtm uhura neoucom edu n wed
sci.electronics	need help with video detection circuit i am trying to build a circuit that detects the presence of video vs a blank screen by monitoring the r g and b outputs of a graphics card it should be able to detect the presence of a single pixel at mhz which would mean detecting a ns pulse it should also be able to tell the difference between a blank screen about mv and a dim screen say around mv oh yes it also needs to be cheap my first circuit was a dismal failure i used compariators each compariator had the input going to one of the guns the input went to a reference created by a voltage divider a potentiometer the first problem was that the compariator was way too slow i needed to get several pixels in a row before it would fire the compariators so i could have a whole screen full of text but my circuit would not detect it the second problem is that there was more noise on the reference then the smallest difference between a blank screen and a dim screen in fact the difference between completely black and completely white is only mv i am wondering if i am going to have to amplify the video signals to make this work there are faster compariators but they are expensive and require split supplies i would need to replace my quad compariator with three compariators and create a whole new power supply circuit at this point i think what i need is some sort of transistor circuit transistors are fast and cheap and should do the trick unfortunately i am way out of my league when it comes to designing transistor circuits so i am appealing to the net for help any ideas tips circuits pointers references etc would be greatly appreciated oh yes i only sample the output of this thing every second or so so i don t need a fast response time at all however i haven t found a way to take advantage of that fact thanks a lot for any help anybody might be able to give of course you will have my undying gratitude steve verity steve verity maxed on midi verity jack sns com
sci.electronics	long distance ir detection i would like to be able to detect the angular position low accuracy of an ir emitting source at a distance of about meters more is better in daylight the ir source could be emitting a signature i m leaning toward khz square wave with duty cycle i am considering the use of a quadrant detector from centronic inc to give information to a pan tilt head to point the sensor and thus determine the angles for the source i am considering wazing the heck out of an ir led s possibly an optek op or motorola mled wazing would mean at least amp current pulses at this current the duty cycle of the led drops to and i would need to cycle five of them in turn to get the required has anyone done something like this stan burton dnd crad dres dtd mss agcg sburton dres dnd ca dre suffield box medicine hat ab canada t a k
sci.electronics	re power signal surges in home in article randall woof randall informix com randall rhea writes gstovall crchh nosubdomain nodomain greg stovall writes anyway over the weekend i was resting on the sofa in between chores and noticed that i briefly picked up what sounded like ham radio traffic over my stereo and television even though both were off also all the touch sensitive lights in my house start going wacko cycling through their four brightness states i presume that some ham operator with an illegal amplifier drove past my house i live on a busy thoroughfare would this be a correct presumption what kind of power must he be putting out to cause the effects the affected equipment is about feet from the road hams are unlikely to have an illegal amp and are also unlikely to have a dirty amp hams can legally run up to watts it is very unlikely however that a ham would be running that kind of power from a car ham rigs not possible either you d need about a amp alternator for just the amplifier i can just see it you need to slow down on a downgrade so you hit the push to talk button for cars put out around watts it is possible that a watt radio would cause interference to consumer electronic feet away most tvs stereos and vcrs have very poor rf shielding if you experience the problem frequently it may be caused by a ham cber or other radio operator in a base station nearby the interference may have been caused by a radio transmitter used for other purposes such as police fire etc if you heard voices over your stereo i think you are correct in assuming that the source is an rf transmitter if you have frequent trouble you may want to try the rf ferrite chokes available at radio shack the interference is probably being picked up by your speaker wires and those chokes can be installed on the wires very easily without cutting them good instructions are included with the chokes if that does not solve the problem you may want to search your neighborhood for a radio operator look for antennas on the roof or car talk to him her about your problem there are things a radio operator can do to reduce interference and please remember to be friendly when approaching your local radio operator this person may or may not be the cause of your troubles and you ll get better cooperation and help if you assume that he is going to be helpful most are it was amazing the accusations that we sometimes dealt with as i grew up we were blamed for skip ghost pictures on the tv that occur at sunspot peaks c b interferance dead grass you name it btw the local operator should try and help you whether or not he or she is directly responsible it is part of being a good neighbor and that is how the fcc views it too bad they don t require the consumer equipment makers to take any precautions last you can usually tell ham radio vs cb ham operators are required to declare their call sign every so many minutes no more than so if you hear this is wa qt or some other call starting with a w or k and no more than total characters you heard a ham cb ers probably won t sign i don t know that they re even required to and fire police have other private ids douglas s rand drand osf org osf motif dev snail cambridge center cambridge ma disclaimer i don t know if osf agrees with me let s vote on it amateur radio kc kj
sci.electronics	laser vs bubblejet well i m not too sure if this would be the right place to post this but anyway here goes i was just noticing that some of the current bubblejet printers offers up to x resolution while a lot of lower end laser printers only offer x however the laser printers still seems to be significantly pricier than the bubblejets how is this or am i missing something about the resolution thing sheng hl pl eecs lehigh edu hl m k cc lehigh edu hl lehigh edu
sci.electronics	re mc sbi mixer musone acsu buffalo edu mark j musone writes p s any really good books on am fm theory along with detailed electrical diagrams would help a lot i have seen a lot of theory books with no circuits and a lot of circuit books with no theory but one without the other does not help mixers have a wide variety of implementations the mini circuits part you mention is a doubly balanced diode mixer but active ones bjt fet seem more popular in consumer receivers you might call mcl they have a nice catalog the universal answer for wide coverage theory practice rf design is the arrl handbook published by the american radio relay league the radio amateur organization any technical bookstore can order you one the book is superb with lots of accessible theory construction projects and generally interesting stuff you might also check out solid state design for the radio amateur i think by hayward and someone this has sharper design and test information about subsystems like mixers peter monta monta image mit edu mit advanced television research program
sci.electronics	how do i make me own really short run cd s i want to be able to take a bunch of home made songs from dat or other suitable master and output them to a short run off of standard music cds would one of the cd recorders designed for writeable cd roms work for this purpose alternatively is there a service that does this sort of thing for a fee i m after as much information as possible on the alternatives cost lead time equipment required procedure to follow etc email replies would be appreciated geva patz geva department of computer science wits university geva concave cs wits ac za
sci.electronics	how to the disks copy protected i was wondering what copy protection techniques are avaliable and how effective are they has anyone have any experience in this area with highest regards babak sehari
sci.electronics	w c w c info wanted does anybody have informations about the w c and w c chips pin dil pckg they are build in a multifunction io card for pc thanks dirk dirk junghanns junghanns rz tu ilmenau de
sci.electronics	re power signal surges in home drand spinner osf org douglas s rand writes hams can legally run up to watts it is very unlikely however that a ham would be running that kind of power from a car not possible either you d need about a amp alternator for just the amplifier it is too possible as the original poster said it is very unlikely but definately possible can you say batteries
sci.electronics	pads question how do i go from a schematic pcb after i have produced a schematic with pads logic how do i import it into pads pcb to create a pcb pattern the only way i ve gotten it to work is to output a futurenet netlist and then import this into pads pcb is there another way of doing this i didn t see any information in the instructions provided but i might have missed something any suggestions would be greatly appreciated thanks i i raymond yeung internet nimbus uiuc edu rky uxa cso uiuc edu ee student at the university of illinois compuserve at urbana champaign i i
sci.electronics	need help on i need help on components bat diode i know digi key or newark sells them but the minimum order is does anyone know where i can get smaller orders of this diode or an equivalent replacement bc b transistor ditto for this transistor hc chip digi key newark and mouser do not appear to carry ths chip does anyone know what this does and where i can obtain it ym b chip this yamaha chip decodes s pdif data from cd or dat where can i obtain one of these thanks in advance ian
sci.electronics	re laser vs bubblejet in article apr ns cc lehigh edu hl ns cc lehigh edu hou sheng lin writes well i m not too sure if this would be the right place to post this but anyway here goes i was just noticing that some of the current bubblejet printers offers up to x resolution while a lot of lower end laser printers only offer x however the laser printers still seems to be significantly pricier than the bubblejets how is this or am i missing something about the resolution thing bubblejets often splatter a little bit whereas laserjets given half way decent toner like hp s microfine stuff don t both produce very good output but you don t have to look too closely at the two to tell that laserjet output is definitely superior on the other hand laserjets which haven t been maintained properly and use the cheapest toner the owner could find often produce awful output much worse than a bubblejet one other thing there are bubblejets and then there are bubblejets there are a few bubblejets out there that produce rather mediocre output such as hp s dinky little bubblejet whereas most produce really good looking output such as hp s deskjets ibm and canon both produce some of the really good style bubblejets joel kolstad p s if you re in the market for a portable bublejet printer i can highly recommend the hp portable deskjet although i ve heard the portable canons are good too i needed pcl support myself with the deskjet portable you even get an undocumented pcmcia card slot
sci.electronics	decoupling caps onboard posted for a friend hello there i would like to know if any one had any experience with having on board decoupling capacitors inside a cmos chip for the power lines say i have a lot of space left im my pad limited design any data on the effect of oxide breakdown any info or pointers are appreciated rs
sci.electronics	re eeg kit in article cantrell sauron msfc nasa gov cantrell sauron msfc nasa gov eric cantrell writes awhile back someone posted some information on where you can get kits to build an eeg does anyone remember where you could get this i m very interested in getting some info on this thanks in advance eric cantrell sauron msfc nasa contact circuit cellar inc park st suite vernon ct fax and inquire about hal eeg biofeedback brainwave analyzer in addition if you want to build your own system from board level compo nents biosignal amplifiers analog isolators and isolated multiplexers you can contact the davron group p o box deerfield il fax david david prutchi hc dt washington university prutchi mesun wustl edu campus box dp cec wustl edu one brookings drive st louis mo
sci.electronics	re long distance ir detection in article apr dres dnd ca sburton dres dnd ca stan burton writes i would like to be able to detect the angular position low accuracy of an ir emitting source at a distance of about meters more is better in daylight the ir source could be emitting a signature i m leaning toward khz square wave with duty cycle i am considering the use of a quadrant detector from centronic inc to give information to a pan tilt head to point the sensor and thus determine the angles for the source i am considering wazing the heck out of an ir led s possibly an optek op or motorola mled wazing would mean at least amp current pulses at this current the duty cycle of the led drops to and i would need to cycle five of them in turn to get the required has anyone done something like this stan burton dnd crad dres dtd mss agcg sburton dres dnd ca dre suffield box medicine hat ab canada t a k a method which will directly almost provide you with the information that you require is that which is commonly used for coordinate measurements of human body landmarks eg the selspot system by selspot ab sweden and the watsmart system these use lateral photoeffect detectors lindholm and oberg woltring and marsolais to determine the position of a spot of light projected using a camera lens over its surface in escence the detector is a large photodiode with four cathodes one on each of the four sides of the square detector crystal and a single anode the back of the crystal a spot of light will produce currents which are proportional to the position of the spot on the detector s face let s try some ascii graphics in d so the detector has two cathodes to detect linear position cathode xxxxx xxxxx light xxxxx divider output xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx gnd xxxxx xxxxx anode xxxxx cathode if the dot of light from the led is the only source of light then the position of the projection is given by this circuit regardless of the level of illumina tion the divider is used to normalize relative to total received power when this circuit is used in the presence of other sources of light then the way of tuning to it is to sample for a few msec the background signal light the led for an equal time and sample that signal separately the difference between the two is the position of the led hamamatsu photonics sells linear and d lateral photoeffect detectors and they also sell the required signal processing electronics the ready made systems by selspot and others are not cheap lindholm l e and k e oberg an optoelectronic instrument for remote on line movement monitoring biotelemetry woltring h j and e b marsolais opto electronic selspot gait measure ments in two and three dimensional space a preliminary report bull pros thetics research most probably this technique can provide you with a much more accurate measurement than you need but i think that its simplicity beats scanning a quadrant detector with a pan tilt system until you reach zero difference david david prutchi hc dt washington university prutchi mesun wustl edu campus box dp cec wustl edu one brookings drive st louis mo
sci.electronics	infra red position encoders i am looking for information on infra red based position encoders the idea would be to bounce the infrared source off a wall and the device would read out the distance preferable it would be rs addressable any leads chris kushmerick kushmer bnlux bnl gov i found my niche in life i just didn t fit in
sci.electronics	re swr meter for cb radios in article aa insane apana org au peter m insane apana org au peter tryndoch writes allthe devil reincarnateswr meter for cb radios td from ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate td organization cdac wa td what td is a good choice for a cb or wave td i read the installation instructions on a wave antenna td and they suggested that i use an swr to tune it at channel td and channel for a minimum reading question is why channel td and the best antenna is one that will let out the most wave probably not the best explanation but the rest makes sense a one wave will cancell itself out btw no such beastie yes there is not common for cb the pattern is different sort of a cloverleaf with four main lobes the best is a wave antenna followed by then etc use of anything under wave for transmitting is very uncommon the usual rubber duck uses a coil to fool itself into looking like a quarter wave i reccomend the arrl antenna handbook or a good basic book thanks dave pierson the facts as accurately as i can manage digital equipment corporation the opinions my own old bolton rd i am the nra stow mass usa pierson msd enet dec com he has read everything and to his credit written nothing a j raffles
sci.electronics	need info on dsp project i want to start a dsp project that can maniplate music in a stereo cassette is that any chip set development kit and or compiler that can equilize mix music ideally the system should have d a a d converters a dsp compiler a rough estimate of the cost is greately appreciated thanks in advance regards jing chin e mail address chin bode ee ualberta ca
sci.electronics	re pinout needed for til according to my ti databook the pinouts for the til display are as follows pin led supply voltage pin latch data input b pin latch data input a pin left decimal point cathode pin latch strobe input pin omitted pin common ground pin blanking input pin omitted pin right decimal point cathode pin omitted pin latch data input d pin latch data input c pin logic supply voltage vcc the logic supply voltage is v ma the led supply is also v but it need not be particularly well regulated the led drivers on the chip use a constant current source so led intensity is not affected by the supply voltage o o kelly gray gray feline uucp preferred gray admin humberc on ca
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article sehari marge ecss iastate edu sehari iastate edu babak sehari writes i was wondering what copy protection techniques are avaliable and how effective are they has anyone have any experience in this area with highest regards babak sehari uh oh umm there are a number of copy protection schemes some involve modifying the physical media and some involve encryption schemes c all of the ones that have existed over the course of computing have been successful for a time i recall however near monthly releases of new ways to crack the copy protection scheme of the latest releases the fact is none of them are completely secure or anywhere near it some are more or less difficult to crack and some have already been cracked i guess what i am saying is that your question is difficult if not impossible to answer what exactly do you want to know do you need a good one for a project you are working on how secure must it be are you trying to crack one that someone else has used i can probably make suggestions assuming the activity is strictly legal in general it is a bad idea legally to tamper with copy protection it can also lead to corruption of files which you necessarily do not have back ups of being as they are copy protected which can be devestating do you have absolutely no ideas for practical applications and are merely curious please clear up those questions and i ll try to help as much as i can incidentally the uh oh at the top is indicative of the dread anyone who has watched their friends hacking equipment be carted off feels when they are asked how to hack the area you are broaching is wrought with dangers many of which include breaking the law or at least addressing it from one side or the other matt
sci.electronics	re building a uv flashlight jhawk panix com john hawkinson writes my main question is the bulb where can i get uv bulbs do they need a lot of power etc etc he ones i have seen are all fluorescent tubes maybe you could find a small tube to go in one of those hand held fluoro lanterns one other thing a friend of mine mentioned something about near uv light being cheaper to get at than actual uv light does anyone know what he was referring to blue lights ultra violet by definition goes from the blue end of the spectrum that people see to the radio spectrum x rays cosmic rays etc possibly you could get light at the fringe of visibility which people with false eye lenses can see easily since it s your lenses that soak up most of the uv however since most people use uv to get other things to glow and the near blue is less energetic it would probably not work as well if it worked at all lecture on basic atomic physics fits in here about electron transitions quantum leaps and stuff moz
sci.electronics	re power signal surges in home in article drand apr spinner osf org drand spinner osf org douglas s rand writes in article randall woof randall informix com randall rhea writes hams can legally run up to watts it is very unlikely however that a ham would be running that kind of power from a car ham rigs not possible either you d need about a amp alternator for just the amplifier i can just see it you need to slow down on a downgrade so you hit the push to talk button now that indeed is possible a good friend of mine is running about kw pep from his car yes he does have a second alternator yes he calls the rig an electronic brake since the engine noticeably slows when the key is down my car unfortunately has so much computer junk under the hood that it s astonishingly sensitive to rfi if i key a w ht over the engine with the hood open the car loses timing due to the rf leaking into the distributor pickup very poor design i will however point out that ham radio operators are usually quite willing to help when interference is detected remember that any interference is wasted power if i put out w in the tv band that s w that i am not putting out in the band i am trying to transmit on and w can often be the difference between a nice card hanging on the wall and nothing cbers however are usually not as helpful most illegal cbers however will stop operation when you inform them of a problem the rest of them will stop operation when you inform the local fcc office of the problem in writing and giving details and addresses last you can usually tell ham radio vs cb ham operators are required to declare their call sign every so many minutes no more than so if you hear this is wa qt or some other call starting with a w or k and no more than total characters you heard a ham cb ers probably won t sign i don t know that they re even required to and fire police have other private ids good advice hams will frequently give their call and will never use a handle they are less apt to use immense amounts of profanity as well but that s not to say that they don t from time to time scott
sci.electronics	digital voltmeter how does it work hello let me introduce a problem when i measure a sinusoidal wave voltage with a digital voltmeter using ac mode my output is an rms value a peak value over squared right when i measure a square wave in the same mode ac my output is equal to a peak value actually to the upper flat boundary of the wave i assumed that a digital voltmeter makes some kind of integration of the input value and divides it over the wave period right now i used it to measure the same square wave as above but distorted by high frequency harmonics ideally output should be the same but the output value was only about of the previous one why what is the nature of this output value what does the voltmeter actually measure and what does it show related question less important to me what are advantages and disadvantages of digital voltmeters to compare with analog ones thank you for your attention you could mail me your opinion at avm zeus tamu edu or open a discussion here i would appreciate either way alexander v mamishev power system automation laboratory phone office department of electrical engineering phone home texas a m university fax college station tx usa internet avm zeus tamu edu
sci.electronics	re need to find out number to a phone line in article mindlink bc ca sean oliver mindlink bc ca sean oliver writes joseph mich krzeszewsk writes the phone company will read the number of the phone you are on where i live i use bctel the number to dial is for the same result in ny city the number to dial is it seems to be different in different areas anders
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article sehari marge ecss iastate edu sehari iastate edu babak sehari writes i was wondering what copy protection techniques are avaliable and how effective are they has anyone have any experience in this area with highest regards babak sehari one of the easiest and really very used ways of copyprotection is to mark a specific sector on the installation disk bad this is very easy to get around though if you have any knowledge of hw hacking but most normal users yes those lowly key punchers don t whatever you do please do not use a hardware key these were very popular a few years ago and they stink mail mail gunnarh sofus dhhalden no snail mail gunnar horrigmo gunnarh fenris dhhalden no oskleiva n norway disclaimer the above posting may seem like insignificant rubbish at first glance but if you read between the lines you will be surprised to discover the annals of burt bacharach world peace oxford advanced readers dictionary quantum physics made easy and an easy to use step by step walkthrough on how to make a time travelling device that actually works
sci.electronics	re building a uv flashlight in article c r lz n panix com jhawk panix com john hawkinson writes one other thing a friend of mine mentioned something about near uv light being cheaper to get at than actual uv light does anyone know what he was referring to i don t want to get into a semantic argument but contrary to some other postings near uv light is actual uv light the near means that it is close to the visible spectrum i e of relatively long wavelength not that it is nearly uv i m sure you can figure out now just what far uv is regular incandenscent flashlight bulbs emit tiny amounts of uv in the near end of the spectrum such that a filter can be used to remove the visible light and thus create a weak uv source stronger sources are going to require gas probably mercury vapor discharge tubes such as fluorescent tubes with uv phosphor be careful though strong uv sources can cause physiological damage especially to the eyes the shorter wavelengths are the most dangerous it wouldn t project a beam like a flashlight but replacing the tubes in a portable fluorescent lantern with uv tubes would be a relatively cheap way to create a portable source it would be bright enough to be useful but not dangerously so ed hall edhall rand org
sci.electronics	re power signal surges in home kludge grissom larc nasa gov scott dorsey writes my car unfortunately has so much computer junk under the hood that it s astonishingly sensitive to rfi if i key a w ht over the engine with the hood open the car loses timing due to the rf leaking into the distributor pickup very poor design there was a news article a little while ago reporting a type of car was it a volvo was found to stall if you used a certain brand model of cellular phone in it i seem to remember the car was recalled to fix the problem hmmmmm this has possibilities if the police are in pursuit of a vehicle maybe they can bombard it with high energy rfi
sci.electronics	re help wanted in article apr csc canberra edu au u student canberra edu au ogawa taro stephen ise writes could someone please tell me if a decoder is the same as a to demultiplexer i know how to link of these to get an output circuit but how do i link of these to make a multiplexer sorry if this seems like a lame question but i m only a newbie to electronics and i have to do this circuit please make any mail as droolproof as possible thanx taro ogawa u student canberra edu au a of decoder need not be the same as a to demultiplexer although many commercial ssi implementations allow you to use one as such strictly a of decoder need only take two lines in and make one output change state according to the inputs a demux on the other hand uses two control inputs to determine which of four outputs will reflect the state of the input signal so there are three inputs required a decoder can be used as a demux if it is equipped with an output enable input since this can be used as the data input e g when high all outputs are high when low only the selected by control inputs output will be low an eight way decoder is created by using the high order bit bit to select which of two four way demuxes is enabled thus you achieve your aim of having only one output of eight reflecting the input bits note that this method cannot be used to create a true eight way demux since you have no data input the enable line on a four way decoder left once you commit the enable lines to their intended purpose a sixteen way decoder obviously requires four four way decoders plus a mechanism to enable only one of the four at a time therefore use the fifth decoder attached to the two high order bits to provide the four enable lines of course the two low order bits must be connected in parallel to the four final stage decoders please give me the credit when you submit your homework johnh electronics department school of mpce macquarie university sydney australia email johnh mpce mq edu au ph fax
sci.electronics	mosfet help since i m not all too keen on this area of hooking them up i m asking for help i know better than to hook a v a stepper line to one unless it can take it however what about if i ve got a v stepper what sort of curent limmiting circuitry would be involved a small schematic would probably be helpfull also i ve looked into the tipc n by ti and i was wondering if i should use the same suggested by you replying to this message current limiting circuitry on each of the mosfets in the package as that illustrated in the schematic which you the replyer would hopefully help me with hmm different request thanks inspiration comes to o baden sys bison mb ca those who baden inqmind bison mb ca seek the baden de bari unknown baden inqmind bison mb ca the inquiring mind bbs winnipeg manitoba
sci.electronics	re minimal boolean circuit in article apr ringer cs utsa edu djimenez ringer cs utsa edu daniel jimenez writes suppose we have a boolean function which is a minimal sum of products derived from a k map or something like this f a b c d bc d acd abc ab c the books on logic design i have consulted all seem to imply that this is where the analysis ends but by factoring out the a term in the function we can get fewer gates f a b c d bc d a cd bc b c which yields gates yes but the minimization of gates is important in part because of timing considerations a ttl gate has the basic structure of and or invert and an inversion of a sum of a product is just exactly one gate delay the reason to find a minimal sum of products is that this matches a hardware optimization a positive or gate such as the gate solution uses has two gate delays and there s another gate delay in the second term so that the second solution while simpler in logic symbols can be expected to be something less than optimal in the real world ecl is similar to ttl in that it can support an or and gate with the minimum delay unlike ttl you get both true and inverse outputs for free when using ecl pals are basically large programmable and or invert gates with your choice of internal connections between the various sections and perhaps some latches so a minimum sum of products also is a way to shoehorn a logic design into a few pals it s not comparably easy to design with a minimization of logic gates but some software packages claim to allow you to do so and will take just about any mess of gates as a nodelist with xxx series logic ics and produce a description of a logic cell array to do the same job xilinx s xact software does this by treating each logic block as a macro and expanding it all out then simplifying john whitmore
sci.electronics	integrated cct type um c l manufac by umc where can i buy or of these chips pref in australia what is name and address of umc dan adrian blockley i may say something profound environmental science here one day murdoch university western australia blockley essun murdoch edu au phone
sci.electronics	re digital voltmeter how does it work mamishev alexander valentino avm sigma tamu edu wrote hello let me introduce a problem when i measure a sinusoidal wave voltage with a digital voltmeter using ac mode my output is an rms value a peak value over squared right when i measure a square wave in the same mode ac my output is equal to a peak value actually to the upper flat boundary of the wave i assumed that a digital voltmeter makes some kind of integration of the input value and divides it over the wave period right now i used it to measure the same square wave as above but distorted by high frequency harmonics ideally output should be the same but the output value was only about of the previous one why what is the nature of this output value what does the voltmeter actually measure and what does it show re rms readings unless the dvm says it s measuring rms it s probably average voltage the input is diode rectified and measured as dc if it says it s rms and but measures square triangle etc incorrectly it s measuring average and multipling by a correction that s only true for sine waves i e vave vrms if you want correct rms for most any waveform you need a true rms dvm dmm which literally does the root mean square calculation in either analog or digital circuitry related question less important to me what are advantages and disadvantages of digital voltmeters to compare with analog ones the last significant advantage of analog imo was being able to see the signal if it was changing over time e g checking electrolytic capacitors anymore most dmm have bargraphs etc that duplicate this thank you for your attention you could mail me your opinion at avm zeus tamu edu or open a discussion here i would appreciate either way alexander v mamishev power system automation laboratory phone office department of electrical engineering phone home texas a m university fax college station tx usa internet avm zeus tamu edu jeff gruszynski semiconductor test equipment systems engineer hewlett packard or t jeff hpmvd nsr hp com jeff hpuplca nsr hp com
sci.electronics	arcade style buttons and joysticks hi there can anyone tell me where it is possible to purchase controls found on most arcade style games many projects i am working on would be greatly augmented if i could implement them thanx in advance dave dnewman lynx dac northeastern edu
sci.electronics	re analog switches balanced demodulators in article msf skaro msf skaro as arizona edu michael fulbright writes i am trying to build a synchronous demodulator and i ve hit a snag in my application i want to be able to change the gain of an op amp amplifier from to controlable via a digital input the most obvious way i ve come up with is to use analog switches to adjust the gain of the op amp the only analog switch i have experience with it the unfortunately i want to switch an ac signal which goes from about v to v and the is only for positive signals i have a carrier signal which varies between v and v i want to demodulate an input signal by feeding the input signal thru a amp with a gain of when the carrier is at v and thru a amp with a gain of when the carrier is v the output is then low pass filtered i believe this is called lock in detection as well as synchronous demodulation look at the this is a triple to transmission gate analog multiplexer with positive and negative power supplies can be run from a single ended supply as well with dual supplies the logic inputs still range from ground volts to vdd this is a neat well i think so design for a switchable polarity amplifier input opamp output control x analog switch gnd all resistors are equal value when the analog switch is closed the amp is inverting gain of one with the switch open it is non inverting gain of one you can clean up the circuit to trim out input offset current if this hurts the balance this would show up as carrier feed through for high frequencies the slew rate of the opamp might cause problems especially if it isn t symmetrical and it usually isn t paul elliott dsc optilink petaluma ca usa uunet pyramid tekbspa optilink elliott or elliott optilink com i used to think i was indecisive but now i m not so sure
sci.electronics	re hc public domain software doesn t motorola amcu have something on the bbs yet
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in apr reed edu mblock reed edu matt block writes in article sehari marge ecss iastate edu sehari iastate edu babak sehari writes i was wondering what copy protection techniques are avaliable and how effective are they has anyone have any experience in this area with highest regards babak sehari uh oh umm there are a number of copy protection schemes some involve modifying the physical media and some involve encryption schemes c all of the ones that have existed over the course of computing have been successful for a time i recall however near monthly releases of new ways to crack the copy protection scheme of the latest releases the fact is none of them are completely secure or anywhere near it some are more or less difficult to crack and some have already been cracked i guess what i am saying is that your question is difficult if not impossible to answer what exactly do you want to know do you need a good one for a project you are working on how secure must it be are you trying to crack one that someone else has used i can probably make suggestions assuming the activity is strictly legal in general it is a bad idea legally to tamper with copy protection it can also lead to corruption of files which you necessarily do not have back ups of being as they are copy protected which can be devestating do you have absolutely no ideas for practical applications and are merely curious please clear up those questions and i ll try to help as much as i can incidentally the uh oh at the top is indicative of the dread anyone who has watched their friends hacking equipment be carted off feels when they are asked how to hack the area you are broaching is wrought with dangers many of which include breaking the law or at least addressing it from one side or the other matt i have written a program and i want to market it i would like certain degree of protection since my main custmers are individuals and not the cooperations i know laser hole burning method and hardware key method however my software is going to cost only so i can not afford that also at this low price i can not afford people make too many copy of my software well i guess say upto illigal copying is ok by me however i do not want someone to get a copy of pctools and copy my software off course i never meant to forbid the true hackers from copying since they can develope a better program anyway with highest regards babak sehari
sci.electronics	re power signal surges in home in article apr mprgate mpr ca vanderby mprgate mpr ca david vanderbyl writes kludge grissom larc nasa gov scott dorsey writes my car unfortunately has so much computer junk under the hood that it s astonishingly sensitive to rfi hmmmmm this has possibilities if the police are in pursuit of a vehicle maybe they can bombard it with high energy rfi right so all the cops will be buying antique muscle cars for chase cars otherwise the police cars will die too to get the attention of a large animal be it an elephant or a bureaucracy it helps to know what george patterson part of it feels pain be very sure though that you want its full attention kelvin throop
sci.electronics	re building a uv flashlight john hawkinson jhawk panix com wrote yes i know it sounds crazy call it an urge call it what you want just don t ask why anyway i d like to build a uv flashlight cheaply flashlight means it should be reasonably portable but could have a power pack if necessary my main question is the bulb where can i get uv bulbs do they need a lot of power etc etc i m not too concerned with whether it s long wave or short wave but hey if anyone has a cheap source of bulbs i ll take both check out a medical supply catalog the thing you are looking for is called a woods lamp so you can check for woods sign certain skin conditions flourecse sp under uv light they come in disposable penlight like types and larger ac powered types it is also used in eye examinations a flourescent dye is introduced to the surface of the eye then uv is shined on it shows up scratches and abrasions very clearly that would otherwise be very difficult to detect for the completest the dye is called flouescien and in normal light appears orangish and leaves a mild burning sensation to the eye for minutes until the tears flush it all out have fun dale farmer
sci.electronics	negative logic high this may sound like a simple minded question but this is the first time i ve ever had a need for this i ve been designing some relatively simple chip circuits based on things like photoresistors you know no light to photoresistor emit a logic high etc anyway i ve got some servos lying around and i wanted to do some things with them using digital logic i know all about having to pulse the signal and everything i just have one problem i m assuming i need a negative yes negative logic high to get the thing to turn in the direction opposite the direction it would turn under normal logic high is a negative logic high i ve seen this in schematics the same thing as an active low or what i m not using a bi polar power source so how would i get a negative logic high out of this thing i need to have all three signals available logic high logic low and negative logic high any help would be greatly appreciated also please reply via email as i never seem to have time to read this or any other group lately thanks much mark umlangston memstvx memst edu
sci.electronics	re adcom gtp ii ir sensor repeater spec s in article r innijp hp col col hp com johnr col hp com john t rasper writes does anyone know the details of the interface wire din for the ir remote sensor wire ir repeater for the adcom gtp ii preamp the adcom part numbers are the xr ii spm ii and ira ii a cursory physical examination of the pre amp connector indicates that the connector pin din may provide viewed from connector front pin v ma pin v ma pin signal ground pin demodulated signal v pp polarity ma drive pin signal to drive repeater led drives through ohm resistor v pp i assume that the repeater connectors mini plugs drive the ir repeater led s directly true can anyone fill in the s thanks here s the scoop when you get your home brew receiver working would you be willing to share it with the rest of us i always wanted to build my own but never have the time to fool around and design it pin signal ground pin signal pin always hot volts pin volts hot only when preamp is turned on pin infrared repeater connectors the infrared repeater jacks on the back of the preamp are not connected to anything inside the preamp except the pin connector pin there is a ohm resistor between the two jacks with a k from pin to ground the signal pin in the preamp is summed with the built in ir receiver they use a chip called cx a and a bjt to amplify the signal i would imagine the logical way would be to duplicate this circuit and use it as the external receiver if you need more info let me know randy randyd csd csd uwm edu
sci.electronics	re radar detector detectors are any brands quieter than others yes some radar detectors are less detectable by radar detector detectors i have a bel i just looked at the manual yesterday and it does indeed claim to be undetectable by rdd s pat
sci.electronics	re a and compatibility in article c owvs pr world std com internet surfer writes does any one know if the is timing pin compatible with the no the a is able to operate in a mhz system the can only take mhz without problems if you see a made by mos or csg take it its a a it seems the has in iheirent bug with cts rts handshaking and i need a suitable pin replacement to put in my serial card possibly a buffered version perhaps i know no fixed version of the there are different possibilities to work around this bug the easiest is to tie cts to gnd and use dsr or dcd as cts it should be easy to fix the software dsr is bit and dcd ist bit of the status register read with rs low and rs high using the cts line can lead into big trouble the instantly stops transmission if cts goes high this means that you may get only a half byte gerrit gerrit heitsch moenchweg holzgerlingen germany logical adresses uucp gerrit laosinh stgt sub org fido if we will ever be visited by aliens it will be very hard to explain why a lifeform that is intelligent enough to build atomic weapons can be stupid enough to do it taken from geo special about space page
sci.electronics	re what s a good ic for rs ttl signals in article c nz z scraps uucp frank holden ka uww writes i m looking for an ic that will convert rs voltage levels to ttl voltage levels something relatively inexpensive would be nice too anyone have a suggestion thanks well it looks as if digi key sells a chip with the number icl that does what you want they are selling it for about are you sure that he needs a two way converter if he wants only rs ttl i would suggest the mc its very cheap dm in germany this chip needs only v the mc ttl rs converter uses v and v btw the max and compatibles seem to be expensive in the usa i paid dm for a its made by harris its absolutely compatible with the max or the icl gerrit gerrit heitsch moenchweg holzgerlingen germany logical adresses uucp gerrit laosinh stgt sub org fido if we will ever be visited by aliens it will be very hard to explain why a lifeform that is intelligent enough to build atomic weapons can be stupid enough to do it taken from geo special about space page
sci.electronics	re electronic parts in nyc in fritzm apr sun panix com fritzm panix com fritz mueller writes i just moved to nyc and wondered if there are any electronics hackers out there who could point me to places in nyc that sell individual electronic components switches pots transformers caps try cables and chips let me dig out a reciept here we are cables chips at fulton street that s near south street seaport and wall street phone is and however when ordering there be very exact or there s a good chance they ll screw up otherwise they re pretty good and they deliver too cheers rob robert s mah voice every day an adventure one step beyond email rmah panix com every moment a challenge
sci.electronics	electronic parts in nyc hey all i just moved to nyc and wondered if there are any electronics hackers out there who could point me to places in nyc that sell individual electronic components switches pots transformers caps transistors etc radio shack doesn t count they have almost no selection and their prices are outrageous i have particular interest in audio components amplifier ic s power mosfets output transformers tubes and tube sockets pan pots faders etc i have checked out a lot of th street and canal street so far with no luck am i missing places looking in the wrong place or do i have to resort to mail order thanks in advance fritzm
sci.electronics	re decoupling caps onboard in article apr jarvis csri toronto edu ravin eecg toronto edu govindan ravindran writes i would like to know if any one had any experience with having on board decoupling capacitors inside a cmos chip for the power lines say i have a lot of space left im my pad limited design any data on the effect of oxide breakdown any info or pointers are appreciated dec did this on their new alpha chip i m sure you could call them up and ask them how they did it haha actually there are some details in their article in ieee journal of solid state circuits i think it was sometime around nov andy s
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article sehari du cc iastate edu sehari iastate edu babak sehari writes i have written a program and i want to market it i would like certain degree of protection since my main custmers are individuals and not the cooperations i know laser hole burning method and hardware key method however my software is going to cost only so i can not afford that also at this low price i can not afford people make too many copy of my software well i guess say upto illigal copying is ok by me however i do not want someone to get a copy of pctools and copy my software off course i never meant to forbid the true hackers from copying since they can develope a better program anyway i wouldn t bother with the copy protection if i were you if you program is any good the pirates will have stripped the protection and will be distributing the stripped version is well under a week hardware methods prevent j random loser from using his copy ii pc to pirate your software but doesn t stop anyone who knows a few people with enough connections to real pirates who will be able to defeat your check for the hole code you may want to price your software depending on what it is a tad higher a price change from to probably would turn off very few potentials buyers and that way you could tolerate more pirates whose numbers don t change with the price as for the pirating figure ha ha of course a lot of pirates just have this thing about having pirated software even if they never use it so perhaps that really wouldn t count towards even so is awfully low joel kolstad p s i assume you re talking pc software if you re talking unix hp or something else somewhat obscure copy protection might be a slightly more viable alternative
sci.electronics	re dayton hamfest i booked a hotel red roof inn last week in cincinnati blue ash which is at the northern tip of the metro cincy area i chose it for a few reasons all hotels in and near dayton were booked solid this hotel is only costing night it was one of about rooms left on the night i reserved cincinnati probably has more to to at night than dayton i intend to hit the riverboat entertainment at dusk if anyone has other suggestions for nightlife please let me know of other hot spots thanks mark
sci.electronics	re need to find out number to a phone line alee ecs umass edu writes greetings situation i have a phone jack mounted on a wall i don t know the number of the line and i don t want to call up the operator to place a trace on it question is there a certain device out there that i can use to find out the number to the line thanks for any response al dial and it sound tell you the number skipper traider ersys edmonton ab ca mark bevan traiders of the lost arc edmonton alberta canada
sci.electronics	coil hey everyone i m new to this newsgroup so please excuse me if this is a dumb question i want to build a crossover for my stereo and i need a coil with an inductance of mh actually i need i was wondering if anyone knew where i could buy these or how to make these i ve called many places and no one i can find sells them if you have the answers just e mail me thanks in advance chris
sci.electronics	re a question about vac outlet wiring jeh cmkrnl com writes hmmm how are those orange isolated ground outlets often used in computer rooms wired they require two separate grounds one ground goes to the ground pin of the outlet and the other ground wire is connected to the outlet s mounting tabs and thus grounds the box and faceplate screw and metal faceplate if any the box faceplate ground goes to the normal distribution panel ground the outlet ground pin wire is generally connected to an insulated busbar in the distribution panel which is in turn connected to the building entrance main ground by its own wire so the two separate ground systems are connected together at the building s service entrance but one is also connected to every grounded piece of electrical equipment in the whole building while the isolated ground is shared only by the equipment plugged into isolated ground outlets of that panel if someone happens to accidentally short one phase of a v feeder to ground the main building ground is likely to have a lot of noise on it until the breaker trips or the fuse blows while the isolated ground will remain relatively noise free
sci.electronics	re looking for electronics dept info in austrailia hjkim hyowon pusan ac kr hojoong kim writes hi netters i am looking for the list of universities in austrailia which has electronics department i am considering to spend a year for research in austrailia about communication area i am interested in mobile communication areas and spread spectrum communications etc but i don t have any information about austrailian universities can anybody recommend a good university in co mmunic ation area any comments will be welcomed can i suggest the university of western australia in perth the weathers great the people are great and our electronic engineering department is great i am a first year student here so i don t know much about what projects but i do know they have a good reputation in the fields of dsp and communications ever heard of qpsx the people who own are ex uwa so that gives an indication of what the department is like for more information email yianni swanee ee uwa edu au with the above request and he should be able to tell some more info or write department of electrical and electronic engineering university of western australia stirling highway crawley western australia australia yours mark mtearle tartarus uwa edu au mark tearle email mtearle tartarus uwa edu au
sci.electronics	re need to find out number to a phone line well here in australia you dial to get the number read back to you if you live in the country include the area code of the nearest capital city eg for wa yours mark mark tearle email mtearle tartarus uwa edu au
sci.electronics	re atari processors in article pca psuvm psu edu pca psuvm psu edu writes does anyone know what processor the atari used what i m looking for is th e pin outs for the atari the schematics for it it does anyone have any idea where i could find this or any related information this is very impor tant also are the rom chips that were used fo rthe games still available or were they propreitary please email me with any responces as this is very important thanks a million btw anyone who works has worked for atari i could really use your help with i nfo on the old please email me if you are willing to help me thatnks alot peter the atari used a cpu just like their entire bit line xe xe computers as well as the game machine the had some extra asic chips that were basically modified graphics chips and pia s for the joysticks later model might have incorporated many of the chips into one asci as the weight of the machines and part count decreased a lot over the years additionally i think the used k k and up to k of rom for their games i have no idea how much ram it had to work with but i would hazard a guess of or k ram think comes from a lot of hacking with the and xe computers and occasionally hacking with the fixing it for monitor composite video use and audio hookups also i tryed to make a cartridge less system that stored the rom into a ram cartridge that could be loaded up at some prior time a way to backup cartridges i ve heard of a setup like this where games could be bought cheaply on fsk recorded tapes then you would load them into a special ram cartidge and play them anyways if you re interested in looking for equipment we ve got two machines around one composite a v modified and lotsa cartridges willing to sell for reasonable offer shipping and handling don t play it anymore since going to computers nintendo interested in that too hope that helps your question i might grab some s out too since they must be fun to play with as microcontrollers shishin squish yamada squish endor harvard edu
sci.electronics	re electronic parts in nyc there are also a couple or three places on west th between fifth and sixth harvey harvey fishman fishman panix com you don t get smart except by asking stupid questions
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article apr reed edu mblock reed edu matt block writes i guess what i am saying is that your question is difficult if not impossible to answer what exactly do you want to know do you need a good one for a project you are working on how secure must it be are you trying to crack one that someone else has used i can probably make suggestions assuming the activity is strictly legal in general it is a bad idea legally to tamper with copy protection it can also lead to corruption of files which you necessarily do not have back ups of being as they are copy protected which can be devestating do you have absolutely no ideas for practical applications and are merely curious please clear up those questions and i ll try to help as much as i can may we interpret this as an offer to volunteer as editor for a copy protection faq i am quite sure that i am not alone welcoming such an initiative i will volunteer to ask some of the questions if you will provide the answers ketil albertsen
sci.electronics	magstrip card reader info can somebody please help me with information about an american magnetics corporation magstripe card reader that i recently bought locally from a surplus dealer on the rear it has the following information american magnetics corporation carson ca usa magstripe card reader model p n it is fitted with a cable with a rs cannon pin connector on the end and has a separate power connector like the once used with wall chargers frode frode weierud phone cern sl fax ch geneva e mail frode dxcern cern ch switzerland or weierud cernvm cern ch
sci.electronics	re electronic parts in nyc taft electronics th street between th th the only one left in what was once an entire district of electronics stores a little expensive trans am electronics canal street near th ave lots of surplus type stuff several other electronics or surplus type places are still on canal street i think bronx wholesale radio is still in business fordham road not too far from arthur avenue in the bronx also in the bronx is northeastern or was it northwestern northeast electronics on jerome avenue near bedford park boulevard they re mostly a tv parts supply house but when i was building cb radio projects they were quite handy ed ravin a tv cop fires a gun three times an hour a real cop prodigy services co fires a gun only once every five years white plains ny d i s c l a i m e r w a s h e r e elr trintex uucp or elr trintex uunet uu net
sci.electronics	speaker impedance help needed i want to connect a very small home made speaker up to the headphone jack on my macintosh lc for an experiment the dc resistance of the speaker is ohm any ideas how i can do this safely i think i need some kind of an impedance transformer or something tony wayne uva school virginia edu
sci.electronics	fet trons sp has anyone ever heard of fet trons or is it fetrons fettrons these were fet replacement modules for vacuum tubes i m looking for applications where they were used charlie brett hp ft collins
sci.electronics	re los angeles freeway traffic reports while driving through the middle of nowhere i picked up knbr am a clear channel station based in los angeles they had an ad claiming that they were able to get traffic flow information from all of the thousands of traffic sensors that caltrans has placed under the pavement does caltrans sell this info does knbr have an exclusive what s the deal doug former l a commuter claar you were right the second time it is knx believe it or not i also listen to knx in the evenings here in colorado it s kind of fun driving through the country listening to traffic jams on the back to your original question yes there are sensors just past every on ramp and off ramp on the freeways they re the same sensors used at most stoplights now coils in the pavement you might want to give caltrans a call or even ask bill keene knx s traffic reporter i doubt if just anyone can get the information but it would be worth asking just in case you can get it charlie brett former la commuter ft collins co
sci.electronics	radio electronics free information card how does the radio electronics free information cards work do they just send you some general information about the companies that advertise in their magazine or does it also give you sign you up for a catalog neil gandler
sci.electronics	re subliminal message flashing on tv kennehra logic camp clarkson edu rich theman kennehan says hi i was doing research on subliminal suggestion for a psychology paper and i read that one researcher flashed hidden messages on the tv screen at ths of a second is that possible i thought the take a look over in alt folklore urban there is a thread about subliminal messages on tv the fact that subliminal messages don t work aside an image can t be flashed on a tv screen fast enough to not be noticed bob billson kc wz internet bob kc wz bubble org nail bates way westfield nj uucp uunet kc wz bob friends don t let friends run dos microware
sci.electronics	re laser vs bubblejet fyi the actual horizontal dot placement resoution of an hp deskjet is th inch the electronics and dynamics of the ink cartridge however limit you to generating dots at per inch on almost any paper the ink wicks more than th inch anyway the method of depositing and fusing toner of a laster printer results in much less spread than ink drop technology it doesn t take much investigation to see that the mechanical and electronic complement of a laser printer is more complex than inexpensive ink jet printers recall also that laser printers offer a much higher throughput ppm for a laser versus about ppm for an ink jet printer something else to think about is the cost of consumables over the life of the printer a page yield toner cartridge is about us at discount while hp high capacity page yield cartridges are about us at discount it could be that over the life cycle of the printer that consumables for laser printers are less than ink jet printers it is getting progressively closer between the two technologies laser printers are usually desinged for higher duty cycles in pages per month and longer product replacement cycles bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown oh usa phone wtm uhura neoucom edu n wed
sci.electronics	radar detector detectors several years back one of the radar detectors manufacturers in defiance to virginia s law against radar detectors passed out thousands of fake cardboard radar detectors at truck stops near the virginia state lines at that time there were no radar detector detectors i am not sure of the impact but i would imagine that enforcement of the law by visually sighting a radar detector became difficult if not impossible as i said earlier efforts to throw out or eliminate the va law against radar detectors has been in vain in fact effective jan the fine for possession of a radar detector accessable to the driver of a vehicle in va is now i have noted an interesting anomality with my alinco dr meter ham transceiver it will make a cheap radar detector scream i am not sure of the range but it is obvious by the brake lights that it can be at least feet at watts randy t agee wb bzx at some point you probably pondered the p o box th floor meaning of life and you came up with a virginia department of education satisfactory answer which has or has not richmond va stood the test of time or you shrugged phone mightily muttered beats the heck out of ragee vdoe vak ed edu me and ordered a cheeseburger
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected write a good manual to go with the software the hassle of photocopying the manual is offset by simplicity of purchasing the package for only also consider offering an inexpensive but attractive perc for registered users for instance a coffee mug you could produce and mail the incentive for a couple of dollars so consider pricing the product at you re lucky if only of the instances of your program in use are non licensed users the best approach is to estimate your loss and accomodate that into your price structure sure it hurts legitimate users but too bad retailers have to charge off loss to shoplifters onto paying customers the software industry is the same unless your product is exceptionally unique using an ostensibly copy proof disk will just send your customers to the competetion bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown oh usa phone wtm uhura neoucom edu n wed
sci.electronics	rpm floopy drives update many thanks to those who replied to my appeal for info on a drive i have which is rpm i now have some information on how to modify this for use with a bbc b computer not only do you have to change the speed from to rpm tried that but also change components in the rec play section to allow for the lower data rate kbit not kbit as it was designed for and also change the recording current to allow for the low data rate rev speed hopefully this should sort it all out not bad for quid normally quid and upwards the drive is a jvc mdp series drive michael brown csulo csv warwick ac uk mjb dcs warwick ac uk lost interest it s so bad i ve lost apathy
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in apr w lumina edb tih no ketil edb tih no ketil albertsen tih writes may we interpret this as an offer to volunteer as editor for a copy protection faq i am quite sure that i am not alone welcoming such an initiative i will volunteer to ask some of the questions if you will provide the answers ok here could be the first question or answer or something q i want to copyprotect a program i wrote how should i do it a you would be wise not to copyprotect that program you see those people that wants to get a cracked copy of your program will go to various length to crack your program and some of those crackers are good and know the common tricks so the copy protection wouldn t stop those ok then what about legitimate users copy protection can be a hassle for legitimate users and can hinder them in their work expecially if there is some key item that can get lost so the copy protection wouldn t help much of the legitimate users but would make life somewhat of a misery for them this is my opinion and i speak as a legitimate user you are of course free to have your opinion about this subject einari rhi hi is
sci.electronics	re long distance ir detection in article apr dres dnd ca sburton dres dnd ca stan burton writes i would like to be able to detect the angular position low accuracy of an ir emitting source at a distance of about meters more is better in daylight the ir source could be emitting a signature i m leaning toward khz square wave with duty cycle i am considering the use of a quadrant detector from centronic inc to give information to a pan tilt head to point the sensor and thus determine the angles for the source i am considering wazing the heck out of an ir led s possibly an optek op or motorola mled wazing would mean at least amp current pulses at this current the duty cycle of the led drops to and i would need to cycle five of them in turn to get the required has anyone done something like this why don t you just run one led at khz and use a flip flop at the receiving end to divide by and give you a good square khz signal just a thought lori stan burton dnd crad dres dtd mss agcg sburton dres dnd ca dre suffield box medicine hat ab canada t a k red fishy wins lori gardi ext dept of astronomy lgardi uwovax uwo ca university of western ontario london on canada n a k
sci.electronics	wireless data transfer i am involved with a michigan company that has an application requiring wireless data transfer if you have expertise or information that may assist us in this project please contact me internet leblanc cvm msu edu
sci.electronics	x oversampling cd player hello i just bought a new portable cd player for the office and i notice that it proudly proclaims times oversampling on the box now while i think i understand what oversampling is the rate of discrete samples exceeds the highest frequency component of interest by some factor i don t understand this times business it seems to me that when i bought my first cd player was it really years ago the specs said times could someone please tell me whether i m getting senile if i m not then what good does it do for the player to take samples at a higher rate if i really wanted better fidelity wouldn t i have to have the same higher rate of sampling during the recording process furthermore am i wrong in interpreting the sampling rate from the player s point of view as being the same thing as the data rate for the bit stream coming off the optical medium does this mean that the data rate related to the rotational speed of the disk has changed since i m so confused cliff clifford bowman box russellville ar hcb netcom com i m pretty sure the world isn t fair if it were i d be a lot worse off n tju
sci.electronics	re los angeles freeway traffic reports in article c ulqn gpw fc hp com cfb fc hp com charlie brett writes while driving through the middle of nowhere i picked up knx am a clear channel station based in los angeles they had an ad claiming that they were able to get traffic flow information from all of the thousands of traffic sensors that caltrans has placed under the pavement does caltrans sell this info does knx have an exclusive what s the deal well they claim they are the only radio broadcaster with this information but the city s cable channel in cablevision areas shows this information map during travel times am and pm i believe most of the major la freeways are covered the computer generated map shows green yellow red or flashing red respectively mph mph mph and incident i might be off a little on the speeds since this is from memory i often look at this display in the morning to see if i really want to fight the traffic on the sepulveda pass or work from home for a little while to wait for it to clear another poster explained the origin of the information sensors embedded wire loops in the pavement near ramps and every half mile or so caltrans has had a big board driven from this data in their traffic control center for some time i don t know if they are selling the data or if anyone with the equipment necessary for its transmission and display can have it ed hall edhall rand org
sci.electronics	re help how to construct home built battery for rd grade sci report in article c ge lo athena cs uga edu mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington writes almost any two dissimilar metals in almost any electrically conductive liquid example copper and zinc in coca cola copper and galvanized steel nails in a lemon don t expect much power out but it should be easily detectable with a voltmeter michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi a copper and a zinc rod in a potato also work nice
sci.electronics	hi volt from battery i need a small battery powered hi voltage capacitive discharge supply to deliver joules at volts this implies a uf cap i have built a very satisfactorily operating version from a max but do not like the idea of using a single source part it seems that the ubiquitous camera flash circuit is what i want but i cant get mine apart without breaking it i would appreciate receiving the circuit description or a source of one i have already looked in several electronics circuits handbooks to no avail thanx martin johnson martyj uiuc edu mind your business on first us coin
sci.electronics	re arcade style buttons and joysticks in article apr lynx dac northeastern edu dnewman lynx dac northeastern edu david f newman writes hi there can anyone tell me where it is possible to purchase controls found on most arcade style games many projects i am working on would be greatly augmented if i could implement them thanx in advance hap controls just outside chicago sells these i don t remember which suburb they are in the prices are pretty reasonable and they are easy to hook up i bought a new coin mechanism from them for a couple of years ago andrew macrae
sci.electronics	re suggestions on audio relays in article c qsbf iek ms uky edu billq ms uky edu billy quinn writes i built a little project using the radio shack vdc relays to switch audio i got pretty bad clicks when the thing switched is there a good relay relay circuit that i can use for switching audio so that there will be no noise of any kind on the audio lines with relays alone you will always get a transient when you abruptly turn on or off any channel if you don t want to hear the transient use some other device a photoresistor output optoisolator is the usual sort of thing to gently mute the signal then switch then remove the power from the lamp in the optoisolator it used to be standard practice to employ photoresistors in switching audio because the photoresistor time delay a few thousandths of a second kept any noise in the digital side which drives the lamp from contaminating the audio and the devices are cheaper than relays john whitmore
sci.electronics	re radar detector detectors in article apr rapnet sanders lockheed com babb rapnet sanders lockheed com scott babb writes brian day bday lambda msfc nasa gov wrote on december it was illegal to operate a radar detector in the state of virginia if one got caught one got fined the federal communications act of made it legal for you to operate a radio receiver of any kind on any frequency including x k and ka bands in the united states and the commonwealth of virginia has not exactly butted against the issue on those grounds the claim is that as a matter of traffic safety one is not allowed to have a functioning radar detector on the dashboard while operating a motor vehicle yes the argument is bogus but it hasn t been successfully challenged in court yet john whitmore
sci.electronics	re need to find out number to a phone line try finding a friend that has caller id then give him a call jb in article bd dea ecs umass edu alee ecs umass edu writes path shearson com uupsi psinntp uunet haven umd edu darwin sura net newsserver jvnc net howland reston ans net noc near net nic umass edu risky ecs umass edu umaecs alee from alee ecs umass edu newsgroups sci electronics date apr gmt lines greetings situation i have a phone jack mounted on a wall i don t know the number of the line and i don t want to call up the operator to place a trace on it question is there a certain device out there that i can use to find out the number to the line thanks for any response al joe bore life is short code hard jbore shearson com uunet shearson com jbore beeper
sci.electronics	re power signal surges in home vanderby mprgate mpr ca david vanderbyl writes drand spinner osf org douglas s rand writes hams can legally run up to watts it is very unlikely however that a ham would be running that kind of power from a car not possible either you d need about a amp alternator for just the amplifier it is too possible as the original poster said it is very unlikely but definately possible can you say batteries i ve even seen pictures of an installation where the ham pulled a little trailer behind his car with a kw generator and ran the full legal limit while mobile i don t know what his gas mileage was like though or where he found resonators able to stand the gaff emd ham almanac bc ca robert smits ladysmith bc
sci.electronics	re a question about vac outlet wiring crichmon sedona intel com chris richmond writes well my house was built just last year and the breaker box is wired the same way all the white and ground wires are on a common bus except for the v circuits only black wires are hooked to the breakers it was the same way in the last two houses i had also are you sure this is wrong i still have the building inspector s signature on the breaker box the point is that the original poster was talking about connecting ground and neutral in the outlet box big no no and you are talking about them being connected in the breaker box as things should be if this is not obvious the point is that there should be current flow in the white i e neutral return wires when things in the house are operating there should not be any flow in the ground wires unless there is a fault condition notice also that in the breaker box there is a wire leading from the above mentioned junction to earth ground usually a pipe or spike driven into the ground tom trebisky ttrebisky as arizona edu
sci.electronics	re x oversampling cd player in article hcbc un l dd netcom com hcb netcom com h c bowman writes hello i just bought a new portable cd player for the office and i notice that it proudly proclaims times oversampling on the box now while i think i understand what oversampling is the rate of discrete samples exceeds the highest frequency component of interest by some factor i don t understand this times business it seems to me that when i bought my first cd player was it really years ago the specs said times could someone please tell me whether i m getting senile if i m not then what good does it do for the player to take samples at a higher rate if i really wanted better fidelity wouldn t i have to have the same higher rate of sampling during the recording process furthermore am i wrong in interpreting the sampling rate from the player s point of view as being the same thing as the data rate for the bit stream coming off the optical medium does this mean that the data rate related to the rotational speed of the disk has changed since note i just tried to figure this stuff out about a month ago myself from various people on the net so i could be wrong the data is only ever read once barring mistracks and such of course and eventually gets turned into khz bit two channel data oversampling takes two discrete data points and interpolates n points between them for n times oversampling when i asked people said that the interpolation was not simply linear interpolation but significantly more complicated anyway then the purpose of oversampling is to move the effective sampling rate up to n times khz in order to use higher frequency antialiasing filters for the same quality filter higher oversampling lets you build cheaper filters whereas for the same price filter higher oversamplings lets you build better filters so assuming the quality of all other components in a cd player remained the same oversampling should allow a manufacturer to produce slightly better sound due to anti alias filtering joel kolstad
sci.electronics	re suggestions on audio relays in article apr mala bc ca wagner mala bc ca tom wagner wizzard of old audio visual equipment nanaimo campus writes in article c r r id megatest com alung megatest com aaron lung writes in article c qsbf iek ms uky edu billq ms uky edu billy quinn writes i built a little project using the radio shack vdc relays to switch audio i got pretty bad clicks when the thing switched i was doing my question is is there a good relay relay circuit that i can use for switching audio so that there will be no noise of any kind on the audio lines are you switching high level signals or low level signals like pre amp a novel circuit i used to build was a primitive optical isolator it consists of a resistive photocell and a lamp all packaged in a tube when the lamp is off the cell is high resistance turn the lamp on and the resistance lowers i use an h f fet optoisolater to switch microphone level signals there is no click since i put a uf cap across the led distortion measurement are very low with mic level and they went up to at a db line level all i did was put the fet in series with one leg of the balanced line no hums pops just audio jumping out of silence the fet runs about million ohms with the led dark and drops to ohms with it on hey it works and works well galen watts kf yj
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article apr w lumina edb tih no ketil edb tih no ketil albertsen tih writes in article apr reed edu mblock reed edu matt block writes i guess what i am saying is that your question is difficult if not impossible to answer what exactly do you want to know do you need a good one for a project you are working on how secure must it be are you trying to crack one that someone else has used i can probably make suggestions assuming the activity is strictly legal in general it is a bad idea legally to tamper with copy protection it can also lead to corruption of files which you necessarily do not have back ups of being as they are copy protected which can be devestating do you have absolutely no ideas for practical applications and are merely curious please clear up those questions and i ll try to help as much as i can may we interpret this as an offer to volunteer as editor for a copy protection faq i am quite sure that i am not alone welcoming such an initiative i will volunteer to ask some of the questions if you will provide the answers ketil albertsen hey now will you stop encouraging him copy protection only serves one pur pose to keep the honest buyer from making legal backup copies it will definitely not stop any pirates if you want to protect you soft supply a good documentation and support this is imho the only way of effectively pro tecting software best regards arno arno schaefer ensimag e annee email schaefer silene imag fr tel no you re not paranoid the world is really out to get you
sci.electronics	re arcade style buttons and joysticks in article apr lynx dac northeastern edu dnewman lynx dac northeastern edu david f newman writes subject arcade style buttons and joysticks can anyone tell me where it is possible to purchase controls found on most arcade style games many projects i am working on would what about the common joystick found in all computer shops gerrit
sci.electronics	re beginner s rf in article c sr h jph cbnewsl cb att com klink cbnewsl cb att com steven r klinkner writes can anybody recommend a good application oriented beginner s reference to rf circuits steve klinkner at t bell labs srk boeing att com i have the arrl handbook for the radio amateur and i m getting the solid state design for the radio amateur the handbook is and solid state is from arrl main newington ct but you should be able to find them at electronics or amateur radio stores arrl will want or so for shipping good luck galen watts kf yj
sci.electronics	re hc public domain software in article murashiea mail beckman com writes does anyone know of an ftp site where i might find public domain software for the motorola hc microprocessor i am looking for a basic interpreter compilier or a c compiler thanks in advance ed murashie yep at oak oakland edu they have a couple different hc things in pub msdos emulators and get the file index txt for a list of what they have lige
sci.electronics	seeking info on wear on monitors we are dartmouth engineering students we are looking for documented data regarding the wear associated with turning on an off a monitor and how it relates to power consumption interested in a comparison between the wear on a monitor which is left on continuously and one which is turned off when not in use please personalize e mail to ds dartmouth edu thank you dan stern oliver weir
sci.electronics	re how to the disks copy protected in article apr uhura neoucom edu wtm uhura neoucom edu bill mayhew writes from wtm uhura neoucom edu bill mayhew subject re how to the disks copy protected date wed apr gmt write a good manual to go with the software the hassle of photocopying the manual is offset by simplicity of purchasing the package for only also consider offering an inexpensive but attractive perc for registered users for instance a coffee mug you could produce and mail the incentive for a couple of dollars so consider pricing the product at or documentation for the program a lot of shareware out there is very similar in the approach send in your money and you get documentation and a free upgrade to the latest version perhaps even support of some small degree whatever you want to offer that is better than the circulating version you re lucky if only of the instances of your program in use are non licensed users figure about as i have seen the best approach is to estimate your loss and accomodate that into your price structure sure it hurts legitimate users but too bad it doesn t really hurt legit users shareware is still much cheaper than the alternatives visit the sounding board bbs a wildcat bbs obdis all opinions are specifically disclaimed no one is responsible patrick taylor ericsson network systems thx exuptr exu ericsson se don t let the se fool you
sci.electronics	re what to do with old k simms in article netnews upenn edu jhaines eniac seas upenn edu jason haines writes i was wondering if people had any good uses for old k simms i have a bunch of them for the apple mac and i know lots of other people do to i have tried to sell them but have gotten no interest so if you have an inovative use or want to buy some simms sure i ll give you bucks for all of them
sci.electronics	exhausted student needing help well i ve now been working on this damned stepper controller board since pm it s now am i m pissed off period alright i can drive the steppers through the p s no problem that s with the wire steppers to and the other are the phase lines problem i ve got some wire steppers i put the darkest line to and the other to the p worked kinda tried it with a printer stepper moves the head back and forth wires didn t work too well it would shift back and forth use something like a instead also i ve been trying to get a bunch of npn s to work with it no luck tried pnp s still no luck i don t know if i m cursed on this or what but i feel my brain slowly frying with the thought of stepper arggg i don t know what s wrong with the transistor hook up to pkg type also tryed the n pkg type no luck i m going to try getting some z s and i hope you can help me with this problem if someone can please help me with this soon it would be greatly appreciated thanks inspiration comes to o baden sys bison mb ca those who baden inqmind bison mb ca seek the baden de bari unknown l
sci.electronics	re circuit cellar ink address in article qvlmainnhuu shelley u washington edu ptorre hardy u washington edu phil torre wrote is cci still published if so does anyone have their address circuit cellar inc park st suite vernon ct jeff babb babb sciences sdsu edu babb ucssun sdsu edu programmer sdsu larc
sci.electronics	beginner s rf can anybody recommend a good application oriented beginner s reference to rf circuits i am pretty good on theory know what different types of modulation mean but don t have a lot of practical experience a book detailing working circuits of different types modulation power frequency what is legal what is not et cetera would be very helpful thanks steve klinkner at t bell labs srk boeing att com att boeing srk
sci.electronics	uart needed i need to find a uart that will interface to an and do the following k baud data bits stop bits no parity ability to do break detect irq or output pin irq on character received i m using a dallas ds at mhz clone but it won t do break detect i ve looked at the etc any help would be appriciated
sci.electronics	eico tube tester repairs i had the good luck to obtain an eico dynamic conductance tube tester for a song unfortunately i was a little out of key the only thing wrong with it was an open meter movement does anyone know where i can find either another meter movement like it a dead but not the meter dead unit or schematics to specify the current scale of the meter movement i can cut and paste a more sensitive movement in if i can find what the full scale current was or is eico still contactable the thing is a model nope not a joke or any sort of snide reference r g
sci.electronics	re pads question how do i go from a schematic pcb hi in article c svup i i news cso uiuc edu rky uxa cso uiuc edu tall cool one writes after i have produced a schematic with pads logic how do i import it into pads pcb to create a pcb pattern the only way i ve gotten it to work is to output a futurenet netlist and then import this into pads pcb is there another way of doing this i didn t see any information in the instructions provided but i might have missed something any suggestions would be greatly appreciated thanks sorry it s german but i hope you understand it uebertragung der schaltplan daten sch in die board daten job pads logic in out reports net list select pads pcb net list output file name filename angeben pads pcb in out ascii in ascii input file name filename angeben errors aoutput file name filename angeben nicht cr jetzt sind alle bauteile auf einem haufen und muessen mit move verteilt werden viele gruesse uli
sci.electronics	re how can uf be different from two in series in article apr princeton edu mg cs princeton edu michael golan writes the board itself is also identical with room for all three caps the us can versions is clearly indicated in both places how does that make sense is essentially for caps there are just standard caps no special w type precision this may be a safety issue the csa is more paranoid in certain areas than ul and such two caps in series means that you don t have a short if one of them shorts all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.electronics	lead acid batteries concrete i was just wondering one thing actually two i hope that this is the proper place to post this subject why does a lead acid battery discharge and become dead totally unuseable when stored on a concrete floor i decided to bring the battery in from the lawn mower and the motorcycle from the unheated garage this year to preserve them and i just went to use them and noticed that not only do they not work but they act like the two terminals are shorted i asked a friend and he said that you should never do that cause it ruins them but he couldn t tell me why thanks camter astro ocis temple edu
sci.electronics	re ir remote control receiver ab freenet carleton ca marc dion writes for a project of my own i would like to build a infra red remote control receiver for regular vcrs and tvs remotes does anybody have any info or tips on how to build such receiver in particular a which photo detector should i use which wavelength do remotes use b which ics or circuit should i use c any suggestions for circuit layout please reply to this group if you wish but as well via e mail my link to usenet is not always available i d like to see this info as well as for wavelength i think you re primarily going to find two nm a bit and or nm a bit usually it is about nm either way the two most common i have seen were and but i have also heard of and i m not sure that the nm one way or another will make a great deal of difference another suggestion find a brand of tv that uses an ir remote and go look at the sams photofact for it you can often find some very detailed schematics and parts list for not only the receiver but the transmitter as well including carrier freq specs and tone decoding specs if the system uses that duane
sci.electronics	read only if going to iscas in chicago this is message is only of interest to those going to international symposium on circuits and systems that is being held in chicago this may i checking to see if there is any people out there who would be interested in getting together for a pickup game of soccer during the off hours of the conference if so could you e mail me at philc macs ee mcgill ca i ll bring a ball if you know someone who is going to the conference and you know that they are avid soccer players please pass on this message to them also if someone in chicago is going to the conference please let me know if there is any field near the hotel where we can play thanks bye philip crawley
sci.electronics	re help mc a real time clock standby mode in article r b inn ct flash pax tpa com au mgregory flash pax tpa com au martin john gregory writes i am having trouble obtaining the specified standby current drain from a mc a real time clock lowest current drain i can acheive at v vcc is ua this is three times the specified maximum made sure that reset is asserted for trlh after powerup and as is low during this time made sure that there is a cycle on as after the negation of rd or wr during which stby was asserted are any of the inputs to the chip coming from ttl standby drain specs for cmos chips typically apply only if inputs are pulled all the way down to zero or all the way up to vcc ttl isn t good at doing the former and it won t do the latter at all without help from pullup resistors this sort of thing can easily multiply power consumption by a considerable factor because the cmos transistors that are supposed to be off aren t all the way hard off all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.electronics	membrane keypad with custom legend i had a catalog with membrane keypads but i dunno what happened to it and it was so long ago that i forget the name of the company anyway you could make your own legend and slip it behind the bezel really nice and reasonably priced can anyone tell me where to get some more of these critters i ve tried several places but none of them seem to have keypads which allow you to use your own legend any suggestion would be appreciated larry d pyeatt the views expressed here are not internet pyeatt texaco com those of my employer or of anyone voice that i know of with the possible exception of myself
sci.electronics	los angeles freeway traffic reports oops that s knx knbr is up in frisco and down at doug san fran can t be the city jack webb told me so claar
sci.electronics	re long distance ir detection sburton dres dnd ca stan burton writes i would like to be able to detect the angular position low accuracy of an ir emitting source at a distance of about meters more is better in daylight the ir source could be emitting a signature i m leaning toward khz square wave with duty cycle i am considering the use of a quadrant detector from centronic inc to give information to a pan tilt head to point the sensor and thus determine the angles for the source i am considering wazing the heck out of an ir led s possibly an optek op or motorola mled wazing would mean at least amp current pulses at this current the duty cycle of the led drops to and i would need to cycle five of them in turn to get the required has anyone done something like this yeesh you will be nailing those irleds may i suggest getting your mitts on the siemens sfh irled this unit is designed to take some big current pulses if you can get your duty cycle down a bit it will output nearly a watt mw with real short duty cycle times nice thing about the sfh is that it is cheap i got mine for about cents a piece even though i had to buy of them btw i have seen irleds with outputs up to watts honest watts i don t have the book here at work so i can t recall the company name the watter ain t cheap around but if you want some power mamamia that s pretty hot they also have a watt a watt and a watt device in their line and will sell small quan to individuals if you are interested i can find the book at home and get the pertinent info now as for the position detector you might try eltec in florida phone number listed in the etid is they seem like nice people their specialty is passive infrared detection devices so they might be able to help you out i m curious about your applications if you don t mind saying the device sounds like it could be useful in a lasertag game although you d need to up your carrier signal concept to khz duane
sci.electronics	answers to many electronics questions i have notice a lot of electronics questions by people who are obviously not tuned in to electronics many of them have rather simple answers and many of them require a circuit diagram rather than muck up the network why don t you write to me send a self addressed stamped envelop and i ll answer your questions if i can w l willis p e fern circle clemson sc
sci.electronics	re need to find out number to a phone line in most areas of the country serviced by ess or cess your phone paula nlbbs com paula stockholm cumberland maine usa
sci.electronics	re laser vs bubblejet kolstad cae wisc edu joel kolstad writes one other thing there are bubblejets and then there are bubblejets there are a few bubblejets out there that produce rather mediocre output such as hp s dinky little bubblejet whereas most produce really good looking output such as hp s deskjets ibm and canon both produce some of the really good style bubblejets p s if you re in the market for a portable bubblejet printer i can highly recommend the hp portable deskjet although i ve heard the portable canons are good too i needed pcl support myself with the deskjet portable you even get an undocumented pcmcia card slot i second that suggestion although i don t own the hp portable deskjet i do own the hp deskjet it gives the nicest outputs with only a minor loss of quality for all intensive purposes papers letters resumes i treat my deskjet like a laser printer you do have to look a bit closely to see the blurs in the characters only one grudge the ink that hp gives you does smudge rather quickly in the presence of moisture even though the ink is waterproof however you would have to spend about more for laser quality the cannon bubblejets are nice however they don t seem to have as much support eg drivers for popular programs as the hp ink jets also hp deskjet regular plus c accepts xerox paper i believe that the cut sheet feeder is an option for the cannon bubblejet if you don t mind refilling your printer with cheap ink say fountain pen ink then the hp deskjets are very cheap to maintain i paid for my last bottle of ink and i expect it to last months kimball who doesn t work for hp but just loves his printer very much ps i have a question for you netters i m too afraid to refill with the waterproof inks they sell in art supply houses because i had brought a bottle of waterproof ink and it clogged up my cartridge i wonder what is a good waterproof ink aside from buying refill kits to refill my cartridge
sci.electronics	re cad program for electronics in article apr norfolk vak ed edu fculpepp norfolk vak ed edu fred w culpepper writes i am making a search for a cad program that does a decent job of making schematic drawings the program needs to be in ms dos windows if possible what i want the cad program to do is to draw diagrams by dragging elements onto the screen and in this the elements needed are as diverse as vacuum tubes to ics case with pins it also needs to have provision for adding legends to the components as well as their values in other words i want to produce quality drawings printout would be to either pin dot matrix and or laser printer i would suggest draw for windows by micrografx i have this on my home box its quite impressive and only cost ukl it has a rather nice clip art library facility which you can expand with your own drawings there is no circuit component clip art included but you could add your own quite easily it works with any windows printer driver of course and can also export embedded postscript and pcx files note i am not connected with micrografx in any way paul paul johnson paj gec mrc co uk tel ext these ideas and others like them can be had gec marconi research is not for each from any reputable idealist responsible for my opinions
sci.electronics	help how to constru dean anneser anneser pwa b uucp wrote my yr old son has signed up to do a science report on batteries i was wondering if anyone could provide me with some information as to how to construct a home built battery in my grade school days i remember seei the ice cube tray version but i don t remember what to use as a good electrolyte or what the easily obtainable metals were thank you in advance i remember watching a whole mr wizzard program on this subject when i was a kid the battery constructed on the program which made the biggest impression on me and generated the most power was made using a galvanized bucket for the zinc and a copper toilet tank float the electrolyte was sauerkraut take a lemon stick a copper strip into the lemon stick a galvanized nail in about to inches from the copper strip you should get about volt from it enough to light an led slmr support your medical examiner die strangely the ozone hole bbs a private bulletin board service full service nodes usrobotics k bps gigs files skydive new orleans rime network mail hub usenet newsgroups please route all questions or inquiries to postmaster ozonehole com
sci.electronics	food dehydrators does anybody out there have one of those food dehydrators i ve been seeing all over late night tv recently i was wondering if they use forced air hea or both if there s heat involved anybody know what temperature they run at my wife would like one and i m not inclined to pay for a box a fan and a heater seems to me you should be able to throw a dehydrator together for just a few bucks heck the technology is only what years old you can learn how to build a deyhdrator very easily from the book the hungry hiker s guide to good food by gretchen mchugh the heat source is a watt light bulb basically it s a vertical wooden box with ventilation holes in the top and bottom lots of them you want the air to flow the light bulb goes in the bottom and wire cake racks are spaced every starting about above the bulb or at a slightly higher cost in electricity you can do what i do use your oven note i do this in an electric oven some gas ovens may not have a low enough setting put food to be dried on cookie tins or racks in the oven set oven to degrees the lowest setting on my oven if yours goes down to that s probably even better stick a wooden spoon or something across the front corner of the oven and close the door on the spoon so that it stays open about an inch this allows for airflow leave the stuff in the oven for to hours check it often since this dries it much faster than the dehydrator if you are using cookie sheets instead of racks turn the stuff over halfway through if you want more info e mail me since this isn t really the right sub for this stuff gerald belton ozonehole com slmr i still miss my boss but my aim is improving the ozone hole bbs a private bulletin board service full service nodes usrobotics k bps gigs files skydive new orleans rime network mail hub usenet newsgroups please route all questions or inquiries to postmaster ozonehole com
sci.electronics	need to find out numb al question is there a certain device out there that i can al use to find out the number to the line al thanks for any response al al al there is a number you can call which will return a synthesized al voice telling you the number of the line unfortunately for the al life of me i can t remember what it is the telephone technicians al use it all the time we used to play around with this in our al dorm rooms since there were multiple phone lines running between al rooms it probably wouldn t help for you to post the number since it appears to be different in each area for what it s worth in the new orleans area the number is easy to remember what slmr ask me anything if i don t know i ll make up something the ozone hole bbs a private bulletin board service full service nodes usrobotics k bps gigs files skydive new orleans rime network mail hub usenet newsgroups please route all questions or inquiries to postmaster ozonehole com
sci.electronics	mc sbi mixer mjm hi i was wondering if anyone would be able to help me on twwo related mjm subjects i am currently learning about am fm receivers and recieving mjm circuits i understand a lot of things but a few things i am confused mjm abuot the first is the mixer to mix the rf and local oscillator mjm frequencies to make the if does anyone have any cicruit diagrams as mjm simple as possible for this kind of mixer i have come across a mjm mc sbl mixer chip but i have not been able to find it in any catalogs mjm active etc mjm along the same note are there any simple fm receiver circuits anyone mjm may have stashed away somewhere and they couold let me see mjm p s any really good books on am fm theory along with detailed mjm electrical diagrams would help a lot mjm i have seen a lot of theory books with no circuits and a lot of mjm circuit books with no theory but one without the other does not help digi key has the ne chip which has a local oscillator and mixer on one chip for a great combination of theory with actual circuits the best reference for non engineers is probably the radio amateur s handbook from the arrl most library s have it in the reference section slmr if ignorance is bliss why aren t there more happy folk the ozone hole bbs a private bulletin board service full service nodes usrobotics k bps gigs files skydive new orleans rime network mail hub usenet newsgroups please route all questions or inquiries to postmaster ozonehole com
sci.electronics	pink noise what is pink noise and how is it used in sound experiments tony wayne uva schools virginia edu
sci.electronics	re how can uf be different from two in series in article c uc k zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes this may be a safety issue the csa is more paranoid in certain areas than ul and such two caps in series means that you don t have a short if one of them shorts not necessarily true a short in one if near the maximum series voltage drop will overvoltage the other one and short it too more bgb lihan ccwf cc utexas edu the only reason the world hasn t really bruce bostwick dissolved into total chaos is that from the great state of texas murphy s law also applies to murphy
sci.electronics	re membrane keypad with custom legend in article apr texhrc uucp pyeatt texaco com larry d pyeatt writes i had a catalog with membrane keypads but i dunno what happened to it and it was so long ago that i forget the name of the company anyway you could make your own legend and slip it behind the bezel really nice and reasonably priced can anyone tell me where to get some more of these critters for some reason the name grayhill springs to mind saw something like that in a grayhill catalog along with options for custom printed overlays and a neat little electroluuminescent backing that would make the whole shebang glow a nice shade of green mighty handy if you re trying to key a door combination in the dark and don t want to turn on the light bgb lihan ccwf cc utexas edu the only reason the world hasn t really bruce bostwick dissolved into total chaos is that from the great state of texas murphy s law also applies to murphy
sci.electronics	wanted tcm chips small quantities from payne crl dec com andrew payne message id apr crl dec com organization dec cambridge research lab date tue apr gmt does anyone know if a source for the tcm modem chips as used in the baycom and my pmp modems ideally something that is geared toward hobbyists small quantity mail order etc for years we ve been buying them from a distributor marshall by the hundreds for pmp kits but orders have dropped to the point where we can no longer afford to offer this service and all of the distributors i ve checked have some crazy minimum order or so i d like to find a source for those still interested in building pmp kits any suggestions andrew c payne dec cambridge research lab r b wnet hal hal bbs qwk to usenet gateway four v bis dial ins free usenet mail and newsgroups pcboard am uupcb kmail call or member of eff asp asad mb disk serving ann arbor since
sci.electronics	wanted tcm chips small quantities from payne crl dec com andrew payne message id apr crl dec com organization dec cambridge research lab date tue apr gmt does anyone know if a source for the tcm modem chips as used in the baycom and my pmp modems ideally something that is geared toward hobbyists small quantity mail order etc for years we ve been buying them from a distributor marshall by the hundreds for pmp kits but orders have dropped to the point where we can no longer afford to offer this service and all of the distributors i ve checked have some crazy minimum order or so i d like to find a source for those still interested in building pmp kits any suggestions andrew c payne dec cambridge research lab r b wnet hal hal bbs qwk to usenet gateway four v bis dial ins free usenet mail and newsgroups pcboard am uupcb kmail call or member of eff asp asad mb disk serving ann arbor since
sci.electronics	part mc sec e i know what the hc e is all about but i m trying to figure out what the sec e is specifically what does the sec stand for dale ulan ve dau ulan ee ualberta ca
sci.electronics	re los angeles freeway traffic reports i live in the san francisco bay area and word has it that something similar is on its way here since we apparently don t have the sensor base you folks have they re installing cameras at strategic points along the freeways initial tests are going to be in the santa clara area i m told with the video being piped into a command center they re building somewhere in the east bay i m not sure if frame grabbers or cheap labor will be used to interpret the data but large multi colored status displays will show the various routes using different colors to represent the various average speeds for each stretch of highway an announcer will sit in front of the status wall and will relay continuous verbal traffic status to those who want to receive it they re apparently also looking into licensing a low am frequency to be dedicated to providing continuous audio from this system in the mean time they ll set up large incandescent display boards along the test stretch to provide commuters with data on traffic conditions up ahead my understanding is that the system is subsidized as a pilot program and information from it will be available free of charge perhaps the la system is similarly free or provided at an obviously subsidized rate read cheap we also have the traffic reports that are broadcast on the sap audio channel of television channels and these are verbal reports qualified with a identification tone to tell in vehicle receivers like the auto talk that the information coming next is applicable to a given area in la they re probably using some other tv channels but the concept is the same try setting your stereo tv or vcr to receive the sap audio channel and go station jumping to find out which one is broadcasting this information i believe this program is also subsidized making the in vehicle receivers cheap to purchase and without having to incur monthly fees to use it since the makers of these in vehicle receivers don t have to pay for the broadcast this may not be completely true they likely have no investment in keeping the system up and running when the cal trans stuff hits the airwaves you may have a nifty little tv audio receiver in your car nothing more when this happens perhaps a word to the wise i think we d all be interested in a summary post if you get more info on how the la system is networked and paid for cheers alan acooney netcom com
sci.electronics	re answers to many electronics questions bill willis willisw willisw eng clemson edu wrote i have notice a lot of electronics questions by people who are obviously not tuned in to electronics many of them have rather simple answers and many of them require a circuit diagram rather than muck up the network why don t you write to me send a self addressed stamped envelop and i ll answer your questions if i can w l willis p e fern circle clemson sc because the network is quicker easier and free at least to me christopher wolf electrical engineer cmwolf mtu edu remember even if you win the rat race you re still a rat
sci.electronics	re a question about vac outlet wiring dave martindale dave imax imax com wrote they require two separate grounds one ground goes to the ground pin of the outlet and the other ground wire is connected to the outlet s mounting tabs and thus grounds the box and faceplate screw and metal faceplate if any i thought the ground was connected to the metal frame on the socket christopher wolf electrical engineer cmwolf mtu edu remember even if you win the rat race you re still a rat
sci.electronics	re los angeles freeway traffic reports charlie brett cfb fc hp com wrote you were right the second time it is knx believe it or not i also listen to knx in the evenings here in colorado it s kind of fun driving through the country listening to traffic jams on the back to your original question yes there are sensors just past every on ramp and off ramp on the freeways they re the same sensors used at most stoplights now coils in the pavement you might want to give caltrans a call or even ask bill keene knx s traffic reporter i doubt if just anyone can get the information but it would be worth asking just in case you can get it i seem to remember that they sell the information and a computer connection to anyone willing to pay on the subject of the pavement sensors can anyone tell me more about them christopher wolf electrical engineer cmwolf mtu edu remember even if you win the rat race you re still a rat
sci.electronics	voltage regulation and current limiting one not so quick question to throw out there for you guys for our class project we need to design and build a power supply to the following specs voltatge adjustable from v current limited at a voltage must stay within of designated value for i from a ac ripple less than mv rms of course we can t just use an adjustable voltage current limiting regulator chip our problem is with the current limiting i e we ve found stuff to do the rest of the parts of the circuit what the supply must do if presented with a load which would draw more than a given the supply voltage is reduce the voltage so that the current will equal one amp thus if we were to short the thing with the ammeter we should read one amp if we measure the current through a ohm resistor at v we should read one amp and the output voltage by necessity must be v the only basic idea we have seen for the current limiter involves a circuit which will pull current off of the base of the output power transistor and therefore reduce the output so does anybody have any ideas we could work from thanks in advance andy collins kc yey acollins uclink berkeley edu ps if anybody wants to flame this as a stupid project i agree fully but i still have to do it its graded
sci.electronics	re membrane keypad with custom legend try the folks at dimolex corp la crescenta ca their number is they make membrane keypads that are very flat in layouts from to keys they have standard models tactile models with stainless domes under each key to make a click you can feel as well as backlit models some of them can even be cut with scissors to form a funky shape other than a rectangle many of the models are available in a kit which includes a bezel colored and plain key covers and rub on lettering to make your own layout one piece prices aren t cheap though as they want for one four position pad kit and for a position kit i have no affiliation with dimolex or any company connected with them i have purchased a couple of keypads from them and am pleased with what i got cheers alan acooney netcom com
sci.electronics	re building a uv flashlight in article c r lz n panix com jhawk panix com john hawkinson writes my main question is the bulb where can i get uv bulbs do they need a lot of power etc etc i ve seen them in surplus stores all they are are fluorescent bulbs without the phosphor and a uv transparent bulb special glass i ve also seen incandescent versions that you screw into an ordinary vac socket probably not what you want i m not too concerned with whether it s long wave or short wave but hey if anyone has a cheap source of bulbs i ll take both one other thing a friend of mine mentioned something about near uv light being cheaper to get at than actual uv light does anyone know what he was referring to as far as i know near uv as opposed to far uv is longwave uv near the visible spectrum longwave uv is safer as far as accidental i hope exposure to the eyes as far as fluorescent minerals go the reason a friend has a uv lamp some only respond to only one of short or long uv hope this helps dave thanks much john hawkinson jhawk panix com who i am david malecki who you think i am dramalecki electrical watstar uwaterloo ca
sci.electronics	re decoupling caps onboard i ve used on chip capacitors to reduce ground bounce noise on a small systolic array chip that had pf loads on the clock lines design was in micron n well cmos using the mosis scalable design rules here are some thoughts on the bypass capacitors they don t help much with simultaneous output switching there is still a large inductance between the bypass capacitor and the load capacitor on both the signal line and the ground return so you still get ground and power line bounce they do help a lot with on chip loads as i had with the high load on the clock lines the transients you are trying to suppress are really high frequency so forget about large areas of poly thin oxide diff capacitors since the rc time constant is too large what i did is to make a metal metal poly diff sandwich but put a lot of holes in the poly layer allowing frequent diff metal contacts i forget exactly how wide the poly lines were if i were doing this design again i d probably omit the diff altogether and use a solid poly sheet instead using just m m and poly and substrate but that has such a high resistance it can be ignored at these speeds you are probably better off trying to tune your circuit to run with slightly slower edges and lower voltage swings especially for output signalling than spending chip area on capacitors i had spare space on the die since the circuit was too big for a mosis tiny chip and the next size up was twice as big as i needed kevin karplus kevin karplus karplus ce ucsc edu due to budgetary constraints the light at the end of the tunnel is being turned off
sci.electronics	anyone got schadow switches with led name your price cap colours quantity available cheers mike
sci.electronics	need to find out number to a phone line try comp dcom i was reading a thread a while back about an number that you could dial worked here it was a sales line for sprint i think telling you that you could have all your customers numbers using there ani then it told you your number should work with any modern switch mycal pgp key on request mycal netacsys com mycal s way of skiing moguls turn turn turn air survive survive survive no risk no rush
sci.electronics	atari processors for all people that are interested in every aspect of the try the zine connection cash to timothy duarte po box n westport ma for sample pgp key on request mycal netacsys com mycal s way of skiing moguls turn turn turn air survive survive survive no risk no rush
sci.electronics	re arcade style buttons and joysticks hi there can anyone tell me where it is possible to purchase controls found on most arcade style games many projects i am working on would be greatly augmented if i could implement them thanx in advance try parts express in dayton ohio also they have a complete line of professional arcade buttons joysticks etc the have a number so call and ask them what the number for part express in dayton ohio is i love the free directory assistance dan daniel joseph rubin rubin cis ohio state edu go bengals go bucks
sci.electronics	re uart needed really break detect in article jam ameslab gov jam ameslab gov jerry musselman wrote i need to find a uart that will interface to an and do the following k baud data bits stop bits no parity ability to do break detect irq or output pin irq on character received i m using a dallas ds at mhz clone but it won t do break detect i ve looked at the etc any help would be appriciated actually detecting a break is done by watching for a character containing all zero bits with the framing error resulting from its receipt this means that the line stayed in the zero bit state even past the stop bit time slot which basically indicates a break there is no special way to detect break that i have found other than this there s no magic signal generated by uarts etc alan mimms alan apple com apple alan my opinions are generally portable macintosh software group pretty worthless but apple computer they are my own art without engineering is dreaming engineering without art is calculating steven k roberts in computing across america
sci.electronics	re uninterruptible power supply alung megatest com aaron lung writes in article qk inn hp col col hp com cab col hp com chris best writes i m no expert at ups s but you said something that made it sound like you didn t realize something on a typical ups well on ours anyway there is no switchover from ac to dc all the protected equipment is always running from the batteries via an inverter with the usual condition of also having them on charge if the power fails big deal the computers never see it until the batteries start to droop but there s something like car sized batteries in that cabinet so it takes a while if you were gonna run the guts on straight dc instead of an inverter why not do it all the time then there d be no switchover to screw things up and no having to sense the failure fast just keep the dc on charge when the power is on and it ll be there in zero time when you need it actually it s a bit more complicated than that i sounds to me your ups takes in ac rectifies it to dc to charge the batteries and then takes the battery dc and chops it to ac again feeding your equipment this approach is the easiest and cleanest way to switchover from the mains to battery once your power kicks out since as you mentioned nothing will know about what happened down the line another way to do the ups scheme is to use the mains until you lose power and then kick in the battery backup with it s inverter to replace the lost power the problem here is the switchover time and you ve got to resync the ac in no time flat that s a standby unit not a ups otherwise there would be no interuption many standby units are labled as ups s though morgan bullard mb coewl cen uiuc edu or mjbb uxa cso uiuc edu unfortunately most everything is built around the assumption that ac is available so the ups guys have to provide and ac output to be usable ya sorta have to make it work with what there already similar story with our telephone system it was first invented back in the s we re still using the same damn system media as they did back then if i have a phone from back then i can assure you it ll work on today s phone system it costs too much to overhaul everyone to a new system so they make it work with what is out there
sci.electronics	ir detector cards hi people ok heres my problem i keep hearing about these little credit card type of things which detect ir light i believe that you have to charge them up under normal visible light and then if they are exposed to ir light they glow or something like that i think that they are avaliable in the states and even in england but alas i live in australia could someone please inform me if i can get these things over here and if so where and how much also are they really commonly avaliable in the states and if so then how much are they and who sells them maybe if i cant get one here i ll write to one of the companies over seas anyway thanks in advance sab
sci.electronics	re suggestions on audio relays in article c qsbf iek ms uky edu billq ms uky edu billy quinn writes i built a little project using the radio shack vdc relays to switch audio i got pretty bad clicks when the thing switched is there a good relay relay circuit that i can use for switching audio so that there will be no noise of any kind on the audio lines i missed the first part of this thread are you switching line level or speaker level audio if line level there s a single chip x stereo audio switch available that switches two channel inputs into two channel output and also has a mute function all controllable with ttl inputs lm i think if speaker level never mind phil torre ptorre u washington edu
sci.electronics	re arcade style buttons and joysticks can anyone tell me where it is possible to purchase controls found on most arcade style games many projects i am working on would be greatly augmented if i could implement them thanx in advance hap controls just outside chicago sells these andrew macrae actually it s happ and some of their equipment can be found in the parts express catalog they show switches for joysticks for and trackballs for they also have pinball parts good luck frank filipanits jr b s ee music california institute of technology audio consultant m s music engineering university of miami franko alumni caltech edu no officer i don t know how fast i was going
sci.electronics	can radio freq be used to measure distance i m wondering if it s possible to use radio waves to measure the distance between a transmitter s and receiver seems to me that you should be able to measure the signal strength and determine distance this would be for short distances ft and i would need to have accuracy of inches or so how about measuring vertical distance as well any chance or am i getting ridiculous what frequencies would be best for this or does matter sorry if i m mucking up the network with one of those questions best answered by bill willis via us mail and i apologize for not being tuned in to electronics r g carpenter ph d p e sorry only an me
sci.electronics	re need source for old radio shack ste it s made by rohm as is all baxxx parts call and ask if you can get a sample it s only like a part
sci.electronics	re need info on dsp project motorola has a good app note on a band equalizer using a dsp it could be easily ported to an ariel board or even a turtle beach k development system
sci.electronics	re can radio freq be used to measure distance in article c v m c bcstec ca boeing com rgc bcstec ca boeing com robert g carpenter writes i m wondering if it s possible to use radio waves to measure the distance between a transmitter s and receiver yes you could seems to me that you should be able to measure the signal strength and determine distance this would be for short distances ft and i would need to have accuracy of inches or so well letsee whipping out hp sx soon to be gx inches m s nanoseconds resolution hmm that ll be rather difficult the more standard read better method is to use ultrasound generally somewhere around khz sound travels a heck of a lot slower than light radio waves and is therefore much easier to deal with what frequencies would be best for this or does matter it might be easiest to visit a hardware store and look at the numerous sonic estimator type devices that do what you want here many are pretty cheap too in fact for awhile the stanley estimator was selling for something like that s the one i bought joel kolstad
sci.electronics	re beginner s rf klink cbnewsl cb att com steven r klinkner writes can anybody recommend a good application oriented beginner s reference to rf circuits i am pretty good on theory know what different types of modulation mean but don t have a lot of practical experience a book detailing working circuits of different types modulation power frequency what is legal what is not et cetera would be very helpful thanks well you might try the a r r l s license study guides for example my advanced class study guide has lots and lots of good rf and electronics theory in it i would imagine the other books are good too tony anthony s pelliccio kd nr ae yes you read it right the system garlic sbs com man who went from no code thhhppptt to extra in flame retardent sysadmin exactly one year this is a calm sig
sci.electronics	re arcade style buttons and joysticks dnewman lynx dac northeastern edu david f newman writes hi there can anyone tell me where it is possible to purchase controls found on most arcade style games many projects i am working on would be greatly augmented if i could implement them thanx in advance dave dnewman lynx dac northeastern edu contact chris arthur at chris arthur pennies stratus com he restores lots of old video and arcade games and knows where to get parts tony anthony s pelliccio kd nr ae yes you read it right the system garlic sbs com man who went from no code thhhppptt to extra in flame retardent sysadmin exactly one year this is a calm sig
sci.electronics	re long distance ir detection in article wb omc dynamo ecn purdue edu wb omc dynamo ecn purdue edu duane p mantick writes btw i have seen irleds with outputs up to watts honest watts i don t have the book here at work so i can t recall the company name the watter ain t cheap around but if you want some power mamamia that s pretty hot they also have a watt a watt and a watt device in their line and will sell small quan to individuals if you are interested i can find the book at home and get the pertinent info you are probably referring to the products of opto diode corp mitchell road newbury park ca the make some amazing irled s the really high powered devices are arrays of or led s on a to header the chip model puts out watts in response to a amp us pulse at a duty cycle i think these are designed as illuminators for ir vision systems i would also be interested in the application here i work with a dance and technology program and want to build something to track dancers on a foot wide stage from feet away
sci.electronics	re radar detector detectors there is or was a microwave tower next to florida s turnpike and you could watch the cars hit the breaks as they came in sight of it every morning michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
sci.electronics	re fujitsu hdd in article apr aber ac uk cjp aber ac uk christopher john powell writes deletions it appears to use two balanced line connections but what each connection corresponds to i know not one connection is a way idc the other a way idc sounds like it is an smd interface to me not being at work now to actually count pins there are two varients smd and smdc i think only minor differences between them widely used prior to the advent of scsi for large drives or all drives on minis and mainframes no experience on those richard dell
sci.electronics	manual for eprom blower logical devices prompro wanted i have an eprom blower made by logical devices and the model name is prompro but i have lost the manual does anyone have a spare manual that they would like to sell declan hughes hughes ral rpi edu
sci.electronics	re mc sbi mixer mark j musone musone acsu buffalo edu wrote hi i was wondering if anyone would be able to help me on twwo related subjects i am currently learning about am fm receivers and recieving circuits p s any really good books on am fm theory along with detailed electrical diagrams would help a lot i have seen a lot of theory books with no circuits and a lot of circuit books with no theory but one without the other does not help a pretty serious book that still seems readable is communication receivers principes and design by rohde and bucher mark zenier markz ssc wa com markz ssc com
sci.electronics	re radio electronics free information card in article c ulqg i acsu buffalo edu v mb k ubvmsb cc buffalo edu neil b gandler writes how does the radio electronics free information cards work do they just send you some general information about the companies that advertise in their magazine or does it also give you sign you up for a catalog that depends entirely upon the advertiser whose number you circled radio electronics compiles all of the cards then each advertiser gets a computer printout of the names and addresses of all of the readers who circled their number some magazines also provide the data on self adhesive labels and the really big magazines provide the data on computer disk the advertiser decides what to do with the data they get you will notice that the radio electronics information card commonly called a bingo card in the industry includes lines for a company name and a business phone number my guess would be that the big national advertisers make a distinction between hobbiests and professionals as best they can for example if you include motorola as your company and include a business phone and a mail stop tektronics will probably send you a copy of their hard bound catalog and have a sales engineer call you about a week later if you leave it blank odds are they will send you a slick brochure and direct you to a local retail outlet medium and small companies are more likely to send you th e whole catalog and then some companies like digikey or jameco have nothing to mail out accept the catalog a couple of other interesting points about bingo cards free industry magazines like edn and such also log your card to their computer they use the information at least three ways they note that you really do read the magazine and are more likely to continue your subscription or push you through repeated mailings to re subscribe they also compile how many people requested which data for their marketing demographics this way thay can tell a prospective advertiser that of readers requesting data were interested in capacitors and finally some magazines rent lists of readers who request certain information for example tektronics can rent a list of everyone who requested information about test equipment other than tektronic s in the past months the other point in the data the advertiser receives many magazines include how many items you circled on the card if they want the advertiser can attempt to cull out the literature collectors from the serious potential customers can you say qualified sales leads i thought you could what s the best way for a hobbiest to deal with bingo cards never circle more than number on the card if you want more than items use the second card and mail it a couple of weeks later if you are really really serious and you really really want the information call the advertiser and ask this will also cut about days off the the response time virtually everyone takes a voice on the phone more seriously than data on a computer printout to help insure you keep getting a trade magazine that you re not really qualified for send in a bingo card at least every other month and circle two or three numbers include a business name and phone number even if it s your house advertisers almost never call john schuch publisher of the arizona high tech times the arizona electrical journal the arizona hvac news all of which have bingo cards
sci.electronics	re cable tvi interference victor inqmind bison mb ca victor laking writes do you know what frequencies chanels to use and what is usually allocated to those frequencies for broadcast outside of cable is air comm is amateur is business and public service ken thompson n itl ncr corp peripheral products division disk array development n rock road wichita ks ken thompson wichitaks ncr com
sci.electronics	re does someone know what is the news group for ieee in apr usl edu yxy ucs usl edu yu yingbin writes yxy usl edu thanks a lot ieee general and ieee announce are the most frequently used groups
sci.electronics	re laser vs bubblejet here is a different viewpoint fyi the actual horizontal dot placement resoution of an hp deskjet is th inch the electronics and dynamics of the ink cartridge however limit you to generating dots at per inch on almost any paper the ink wicks more than th inch anyway the method of depositing and fusing toner of a laster printer results in much less spread than ink drop technology in practice there is little difference in quality but more care is needed with inkjet because smudges etc can happen it doesn t take much investigation to see that the mechanical and electronic complement of a laser printer is more complex than inexpensive ink jet printers recall also that laser printers offer a much higher throughput ppm for a laser versus about ppm for an ink jet printer a cheap laser printer does not manage that sort of throughput and on top of that how long does the first sheet take to print inkjets are faster than you say and in both cases the computer often has trouble keeping up with the printer i have a and a lot of drivers cannot keep up with the printer a sage said to me do you want one copy or lots of copies one inkjet something else to think about is the cost of consumables over the life of the printer a page yield toner cartridge is about us at discount while hp high capacity page yield cartridges are about us at discount it could be that over the life cycle of the printer that consumables for laser printers are less than ink jet printers it is getting progressively closer between the two technologies laser printers are usually desinged for higher duty cycles in pages per month and longer product replacement cycles paper cost is the same and both can use refills long term the laserprinter will need some expensive replacement parts consumables and on top of that are the amortisation costs which favour the lowest purchase cost printer hp inkjets understand pcl so in many cases a laserjet driver will work if the software package has no inkjet driver there is one wild difference between the two printers a laserprinter is a page printer whilst an inkjet is a line printer this means that a laserprinter can rotate graphic images whilst an inkjet cannot few drivers actually use this facility there is also the matter of downloadable fonts and so on tc e mail tchannon black demon co uk or tchannon cix compulink co uk
sci.med	info needed gaucher s disease i have a yr old male friend misdiagnosed as having osteopporosis for two years who recently found out that his illness is the rare gaucher s disease gaucher s disease symptoms include brittle bones he lost inches off his hieght enlarged liver and spleen internal bleeding and fatigue all the time the problem in type is attributed to a genetic mutation where there is a lack of the enzyme glucocerebroside in macrophages so the cells swell up this will eventually cause death enyzme replacement therapy has been successfully developed and approved by the fda in the last few years so that those patients administered with this drug called ceredase report a remarkable improvement in their condition ceredase which is manufactured by biotech biggy company genzyme costs the patient per year gaucher s disease has justifyably been called the most expensive disease in the world need info i have researched gaucher s disease at the library but am relying on netlanders to provide me with any additional information news stories reports people you know with this disease ideas articles about genzyme corp how to get a hold of enough money to buy some programs available to help with costs basically any help you can offer thanks so very much deborah
sci.med	re jiggers in article cup portal com mmm cup portal com mark robert thorson writes this wouldn t happen to be the same thing as chiggers would it a truly awful parasitic affliction as i understand it tiny bugs dig deeply into the skin burying themselves yuck they have these things in oklahoma close my mother comes from gainesville tex right across the border they claim to be the chigger capitol of the world and i believe them when i grew up in fort worth it was bad enough but in gainesville in the summer an attack was guaranteed doug mcdonald
sci.med	re breech baby info needed in article apr trentu ca xtkmg trentu ca kate gregory writes in article apr cs rochester edu fulk cs rochester edu mark fulk writes another uncommon problem is maternal hemorrhage i don t remember the incidence but it is something like in or births it is hard to see how you could handle it at home and you wouldn t have very much time thing you might consider is that people s risk tradeoffs vary i consider a risk of loss of a loved one to require considerable effort in the avoiding mark you seem to be terrified of the birth process that s ridiculous and unable to believe that women s bodies are actually designed to do it they aren t designed they evolved and much as it discomforts us in humans a trouble free birth process was sacrificed to increased brain and cranial size wild animals have a much easier time with birth than humans do domestic horses and cows typically have a worse time to give you an idea my family tree is complicated because a few of my pioneer great great grandfathers had several wives and we never could figure out which wife had each child one might ask why this happened my great great grandfathers were by the time they reached their forties quite prosperous farmers nonetheless they lost several wives each to the rigors of childbirth the graveyards in spencer indiana and boswell north dakota contain quite a few gravestones like ida wf of jacob liptrap and baby may you wanted to section all women carrying breech in case one in a hundred or a thousand breech babies get hung up in second stage more like one in ten and the consequences can be devastating i have direct experience of more than a dozen victims of a fouled up breech birth and now you want all babies born in hospital based on a guess of how likely maternal hemorrhage is and a false belief that it is fatal it isn t always fatal but it is often fatal when it happens out of reach of adequate help more often it permanently damages one s health clearly women s bodies evolved to give birth i am no believer in divine design however evolution did not favor trouble free births for humans you have your kids where you want you encourage your wife to get six inch holes cut through her stomach muscles expose herself to anesthesia and infection and whatever other just in case measures you think are necessary my aren t we wroth i haven t read a more outrageous straw man attack in months i can practically see your mouth foam we re statistically sophisticated enough to balance the risks although i can t produce exact statistics years after the last time we looked them up rest assured that we balanced c section risks against other risks i wouldn t encourage my wife to have a caesarean unless it was clearly indicated on the other hand i am opposed on obvious grounds to waiting until an emergency to give in and bear this in mind my wife took the lead in all of these decisions we talked things over and i did a lot of the leg work but the main decisions were really hers but i for one am bothered by your continued suggestions especially to the misc kidders pregnant for the first time that birth is dangerous even fatal and that all these unpleasant things are far better than the risks you run just doing it naturally i don t know of very many home birth advocates even that think that a first time mother should have her baby at home i m no luddite i ve had a section i m planning a hospital birth this time but for heaven s sake not everyone needs that but people should bother to find out the relative risks my wife was unwilling to take any significant risks in order to have nice surroundings in view of the intensity of the birth experience i doubt surroundings have much importance anyway somehow the values you re advocating seem all lopsided to me taking risks even if fairly small of serious permanent harm in order to preserve something that is after all an esthetic consideration mark a fulk university of rochester computer science department fulk cs rochester edu
sci.med	analgesics with diuretics i sometimes see otc preparations for muscle aches back aches that combine aspirin with a diuretic the idea seems to be to reduce inflammation by getting rid of fluid does this actually work thanks larry c
sci.med	re lactose intolerance in article ng husc harvard edu ng husc harvard edu ho leung ng wrote when i was a kid in primary school i used to drink tons of milk without any problems however nowadays i can hardly drink any at all without experiencing some discomfort what could be responsible for the change ho leung ng ng husc harvard edu you became older and your intestine normalized to the weaned state that is lactose tolerance is an unusual state for adults of most mammals except for h sapiens of northern european origin as a h sapiens of asian descent assumption based on name the loss of lactase is normal for you steve holland gila uabdpo dpo uab edu
sci.med	smoker s lungs how long does it take a smoker s lungs to clear of the tar after quitting does your chances of getting lung cancer decrease quickly or does it take a considerable amount of time for that to happen
sci.med	re blood cholesterol gabe mirkin s advice in article pka uinnnqa mojo eng umd edu georgec eng umd edu george b clark writes forget about total cholesterol when assessing health risk factors instead use a relationship between ldl and hdl cholesterol if your ldl is you need an hdl of at least gee what do i do my ldl is only and my hdl is only i must be risking something but is it the same risk as those with very high ldl if your triglycerides are above and your hdl is below the drug of choice is gemfibrozil lopid taken as a mg tablet thirty minutes before your morning and evening meals what about exercise and a low fat diet what are the long term effects of this drug doug bank private systems division dougb ecs comm mot com motorola communications sector dougb nwu edu schaumburg illinois dougb casbah acns nwu edu
sci.med	re sex problem ls albnyvms bitnet larry silverberg writes i have question that i hope is taken seriously despite the subject content problem my long time girlfriend lately has not been initiating any sexual activity for the last four months things have changed dramatically to make this shorter summary nothing that i can think of has changed she suggested we go to a sex counselor but i really don t want to just yet any suggestions would be appreciated if you think you can help me please contact me by e mail for further info please serious replies only thanks larry larry the subject content is serious as is the question on one hand you state that things have changed dramatically but at the same time nothing you can think of has changed your girlfriend seems to want to see a counselor but you don t i d recommend that you examine your hesitation to see a counselor it s a very good environment to examine issues the fact of the matter is your girlfriend has a different perception than you the two of you need to address the issue in order to resolve it please consider going to a counselor with your girlfriend what could it possibly hurt cliff the paramedic
sci.med	re prednisone what are the significant long term side effects i have been taking prednisone mg twice a day for a while to control ulcerative colitis it seems like if i reduce the dosage the problem becomes worse at this point i see myself taking prednisone for a long long time perhaps for ever i was wondering about long term major side effects things like potential birth defects arthritis etc i have been putting on weight my face looks puffed and round experience sudden mood swings as i understand these are all short term i second what spenser aden said in reply additionally it is hard to say what type of response you ar e having to prednisone since you did not say how long you have been on it patients are generally kept on steroids for months before thinking about tapering alternatives to daily dosing are every other day dosing in your case mg every other day would be a start another option if it is not possible to get you off prednisone is to start azathioprine like spenser said you should generally be on another drug in addition to your prednisone like asulfidine a lot of the specifics about options though depends on severity location and duration of disease as well as histology so take advice off the net for what it is worth i treat patients with uc and crohn s an educated patient is a good patient but let your doctor know where the advice came from so things can be put in context you should also be a member of the crohn s and colitis foundation of america office info hotline best of luck to you steve holland gila uabdpo dpo uab edu
sci.med	re mental illness reply to dabbott augean eleceng adelaide edu au derek abbott are there any case histories of severe mental illness cases remarkably recovering after a tragic accident or trauma eg through nobody s fault being trapped in a fire and losing your legs say i know of a patient who was severely and chronically depressed and tried to kill himself with a bullet to the temple he essentially gave himself a prefrontal lobotomy curing the depression david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire wi this is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities bertrand russell
sci.med	re can t breathe reply to ron roth rose com ron roth while you re right that the s vertebrae are attached to each other the sacrum to my knowledge can be adjusted either directly or by applying pressure on the pubic bone ron you re an endless source of misinformation there are no sacral vertebrae there is a bone called the sacrum at the end of the spine it is a single solid bone except in a few patients who have a lumbarized s as a normal variant how do you adjust a solid bone break it no don t tell me i don t want to know david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire wi this is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities bertrand russell
sci.med	re lactose intolerance in article ng husc harvard edu ng husc harvard edu ho leung ng writes when i was a kid in primary school i used to drink tons of milk without any problems however nowadays i can hardly drink any at all without experiencing some discomfort what could be responsible for the change ho leung ng ng husc harvard edu
sci.med	re lactose intolerance in article apr immunex com rousseaua immunex com writes in article ng husc harvard edu ng husc harvard edu ho leung ng writes when i was a kid in primary school i used to drink tons of milk without any problems however nowadays i can hardly drink any at all without experiencing some discomfort what could be responsible for the change ho leung ng ng husc harvard edu oops my original message died i ll try again i always understood perhaps wrongly that the bacteria in our digestive tracts help us break down the components of milk perhaps the normal flora of the intestine changes as one passes from childhood is there a pathologist or microbiologist in the house anne marie rousseau e mail rousseaua immunex com please note that these opinions are mine and only mine
sci.med	re smoker s lungs in article apr kuhub cc ukans edu bennett kuhub cc ukans edu writes how long does it take a smoker s lungs to clear of the tar after quitting does your chances of getting lung cancer decrease quickly or does it take a considerable amount of time for that to happen the answer to your first question is rather difficult to answer without doing a lot of autopsies the second question is something that s been known for some time it appears that within about years of quitting smoking a person s risk for developing lung cancer drops to that of the person who never smoked assuming you do not get lung cancer in the interim the risk to someone who smoked the equivalent of a pack per day for years is around times as high as a non smoker still rather low overall but significant personally i d be more concerned about heart disease secondary to smoking it s much more common and even a small increase in risk is significant there kenneth gilbert university of pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit not a programmer
sci.med	re can t breathe david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu wrote reply to ron roth rose com ron roth while you re right that the s vertebrae are attached to each other the sacrum to my knowledge can be adjusted either directly or by applying pressure on the pubic bone ron you re an endless source of misinformation there are no sacral vertebrae there is a bone called the sacrum at the end of the spine it is a single solid bone except in a few patients who have a lumbarized s as a normal variant how do you adjust a solid bone break it no don t tell me i don t want to know oh come now surely you know he only meant to measure the flow of electromagnetic energy about the sacrum and then adjust these flows with a crystal of chromium applied to the right great toe don t you know anything kenneth gilbert university of pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit not a programmer
sci.med	re anti viral herbs kxgst pitt edu kenneth gilbert writes unfortunately it was rather poorly researched and would not be available today if it were just invented keep in mind however that those were the days when a bottle of coca cola really did contain coca extract and a certain amount of active cocaine times have changed and our attitudes need to change with them well yes that was a part of my point aspirin has its problems but in some situations it is useful ditto stuff like licorice root taking anything as a drug for theraputic purposes implicitly carries the idea of taking a dose where the benefits are not exceeded by any unwanted additional effects taking any drug when the potential ill effects are not known is a risk assumed by the parties involved and it may be that in a given situation the risk is worthwhile like prozac for instance prozac has been shown to be theraputic in some cases where the tri cyclics fail but prozac hasn t been in use that long and it really isn t clear what if any effects it may have when taken over long periods of time even though it has been tested by present day standards should prozac be taken off the market because long term effects if any are not known imho i d say no euclid kenneth gilbert university of pittsburgh general internal medicine pittsburgh pa kxgst pitt edu dammit not a programmer kenneth gilbert university of pittsburgh general internal medicine pittsburgh pa kxgst pitt edu dammit not a programmer euclid k standard disclaimers apply it is a bit ironic that we need the wave model of light to understand the propagation of light only through that part of the system where it leaves no trace hudson nelson university physics
sci.med	ringing ears a friend of mine has a trouble with her ears ringing the ringing is so loud that she has great difficulty sleeping at night she says that she hasn t had a normal night s sleep in about months she looks like it too this is making her depressed so her doctor has put her on anti depressants the ringing started rather suddenly about months ago she is quickly losing sleep social life and sanity over this does anyone know of any treatments for this any experience coping mechanisms any opinions on the anti depressant drugs j f
sci.med	re twitching eyelid i m surprised nobody mentioned that twitching of the eyelid can be a symptom of an infection especially if it also itches or stings it happened to me and antibiotic eyedrops cleared it up nicely michael a covington internet mcovingt ai uga edu artificial intelligence programs phone the university of georgia fax athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
sci.med	re fibromyalgia in article apr edt smoke cs toronto edu craig cs toronto edu craig macdonald writes it may be extremely common something like of the population it is treatable with tricyclic antidepressant type drugs elavil pamelor why is it treated with antidepressants is it considered a psychogenic condition no that these drugs happen to be useful as antidepressants is neither here nor there steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima harvard rayssd linus m c spdcc dyer
sci.med	re analgesics with diuretics in article ofk lve wb avukto andrew cmu edu lawrence curcio lc b andrew cmu edu writes i sometimes see otc preparations for muscle aches back aches that combine aspirin with a diuretic you certainly do not see otc preparations advertised as such the only such ridiculous concoctions are nostrums for premenstrual syndrome ostensibly to treat headache and bloating simultaneously they re worthless the idea seems to be to reduce inflammation by getting rid of fluid does this actually work that s not the idea and no they don t work steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima harvard rayssd linus m c spdcc dyer
sci.med	re ringing ears in article ncrwat waterloo ncr com jfare iss waterloo ncr com jim fare writes a friend of mine has a trouble with her ears ringing the ringing is so loud that she has great difficulty sleeping at night she says that she hasn t had a normal night s sleep in about months she looks like it too this is making her depressed so her doctor has put her on anti depressants sometimes i have a problem with doctor s prescribing medicine like this i of course don t know the exact situation and anti depressants may work but it isn t helping the ringing at all is it the ringing started rather suddenly about months ago she is quickly losing sleep social life and sanity over this mine started about three years back turns out i have tinnitus bilateral translation ringing in both ears basically if this is what it is she ll probably get used to it it would keep me up and drive me nuts too but nowadays i have to plug both my ears with my fingers to check to see if they are ringing usually they are but you get so used to it it just gets tuned out yes this is what i ve read about it not just from my own personal experience does anyone know of any treatments for this any experience coping mechanisms any opinions on the anti depressant drugs millions have it according to my physician you just learn to cope with it like i mentioned earlier by ignoring it it eventually becomes unconscious the doc also said it could be caused by diet ie too much caffeine and stress but i haven t changed my lifestyle much and it just comes and goes it is always there somewhat but now i rarely notice it when it really kicks in also it doesn t necessarily mean there is any hearing loss either caused by it or causing it i had an ent ear nose throat exam and passed in fact my hearing is quite good considering i don t take as good of care of my hearing as i should her reaction is normal if it is tinnitus chances are good she ll begin to not even notice it this info is taken mostly from a few experts my own experience and some readings sorry it was a few years back and don t have any specifics handy jt
sci.med	emphysema question a friend of mine is going in later this week for tests to see if has emphysema his lung capacity has decreased over time his father died of the disease he works in woodworking i believe he has a very occasional cigarette perhaps one cigarette a day or even less he tells me this i ve never seen him light up he has some pretty healthy life style habits good diet exercise meditation retreats therapy etc anyhow he is very concerned with this check up i know really nothing about the disease i believe it interferes with the lining of the lung being able to exchange oxygen is a diagnosis of emphysema a death sentence if he were to give up smoking entirely would that better his chances for recovery what are some modern therapies used in people with this disease i would appreciate any information thanks amigan cup portal com
sci.med	re oily skin problem in article apr vaxc stevens tech edu u hwong vaxc stevens tech edu writes i have a very oily skin my problem is when i wash my face it becomes oily in half an hour especially in the nose region is this an illness how can i prevent it from occuring in such short time is there a cleanser out there that will do a better job that is after cleaning my face won t become oily in such a short time i don t think that s a problem my face is quite oily too i had a moderate acne problem for many years i then found that if i vigorously scrub my face with a nail brush and soap irish spring twice a day the acne was not a problem i can still leave a pretty health nose print on a mirror after min don t ask but acne is not a real problem anymore j f
sci.med	re migraines and scans dn from nyeda cnsvax uwec edu david nye dn a neurology dn consultation is cheaper than a scan and also better because a neurologist can make a differential diagnosis between migraine tension type headache cluster benign intracranial hypertension chronic paroxysmal hemicrania and other headache syndromes that all appear normal on a scan a neurologist can also recommend a course of treatment that is appropriate to the diagnosis dn also since many people are convinced they have brain tumors or other dn serious pathology it may be cheaper to just get a ct scan then have dn them come into the er every few weeks dn and easier than taking the time to reassure the patient right dn personally i don t think this can ever be justified sigh it may never be justifiable but i sometimes do it even after i try to show thoroughness with a detailed history neurologic examination and discussion with the patient about my diagnosis salted with lots of reassurance patients still ask why can t you order a scan so we can be absolutely sure aunt millie often gets into the conversation as in they ignored aunt millie s headaches for years and then she died of a brain tumor aneurysm or whatever if you can get away without ever ordering imaging for a patient with an obviously benign headache syndrome i d like to hear what your magic is every once in a while i am able to bypass imaging by getting an eeg mind you i don t think eeg is terribly sensitive for brain tumor but the patient feels like something is being done as if the hours i spent talking with and examining the patient were nothing the eeg has no ionizing radiation it s much cheaper than ct or mri and the eeg brings in some money to my department slmr e mail jim zisfein factory com jim zisfein
sci.med	re migraine and exercise jl from jlecher pbs org jl i would not classify a mild headache that was continuous for weeks jl as migraine even if the other typical features were there e g jl unilateral nausea and vomiting photophobia migraines are by jl common agreement episodic rather than constant jl jl well i m glad that you aren t my doctor then or i d still be suffering jl remember i was tested for any other cause and there was nothing i m jl otherwise very healthy jl the nagging pain has all of the qualifications it s on one side and jl frequently included my entire right side right arm right leg right eye jl even the right side of my tongue hurt or tingled noise hurt light hurt jl thinking hurt when it got bad i would lose my ability to read the differential diagnosis between migraine and non migranous pain is not always important because some therapies are effective in both e g tricyclic antidepressants such as amitriptyline non steroidal anti inflammatory drugs such as ibuprofen other therapies may be more specific beta blockers such as propranolol work better in migraine than tension type headache the most important thing from your perspective is that you got relief also please understand that a diagnosis other than migraine does not necessarily mean psychogenic i suspect that organic factors play as large a role in tension type headache as in migraine slmr e mail jim zisfein factory com jim zisfein
sci.med	what about sci med chemistry there is this newsgroup sci med physics and there has been quite a lot discussion in this group about many chemical items e g prolactin cholesterol tsh etc should there also be a newsgroup sci med chemistry antero julkunen dept clinical chemistry university of kuopio finland e mail julkunen messi uku fi phone fax
sci.med	mystery illness with eye problems a friend has the following symptoms which have occurred periodically every few months for the last years an episode begins with extreme tiredness followed by traveling joint pains and stiffness affecting mostly the elbows knees and hips generalized muscle pains tinnitus and a feeling of pressure in her ears severe sweating occuring both at night and during the day hemorrhaging in both eyes her opthamologist calls it peripheral retinal hemorhages and says it looks similar to diabetic retinopathy she isn t diabetic they checked distorted color vision and distorted vision in general telephone poles do not appear to be straight loss of peripheral vision many tests have been run and all are normal except for something called unidentified bright objects found on a mri of her brain the only thing that seems to alleviate one of these episodes is prednisone at times she had been on mg per day whenever she gets down to mg the symptoms become acute again she is quite concerned because the retinal hemorrhages are becoming worse with each episode and her vision is suffering none of the docs she has seen have any idea what this condition is or what can be done to stop it any suggestions or advice would be greatly appreciated thanks in advance kathy turner
sci.med	re my new diet it works great in article apr inmet camb inmet com mazur bluefin camb inmet com beth mazur writes in apr omen uucp caf omen uucp chuck forsberg wa kgx writes gordon your experience is valid for many but not all the fact that you know a few people who have been overweight and are now stable at a lower normal or just less weight does not contradict the observation that only per cent can maintain ideal weight with current technology actually the observation is that only of those who seek help from your so called diet evangelists can maintain their weight i happen to agree with keith lynch that there are many people who can and do lose weight on their own and who are not reflected in the dismal failure rate that is often quoted wasn t there a study where a researcher asked a more general population perhaps some part of a university community about weight loss and he she found that a much higher percentage had lost and maintained in fact adiposity mentions a similar study search for life events in any recent version of adiposity the problem with anecdotal reports about individuals who have lost weight and kept it off is that we don t know what caused the weight gain in the first place this is critical because someone who gains weight because of something temporary drug effect life event etc may appear successful at dieting when the weight loss was really the result of reversing the temporary condition that caused the weight gain chuck forsberg wa kgx tektronix reed omen caf author of ymodem zmodem professional yam zcomm and dsz omen technology inc the high reliability software v nw sauvie is rd portland or
sci.med	re can t breathe getting back to the original question in this thread i experienced breathing difficulties a few years ago similar to those described in my case it turned out that i was developing type i diabetes although i never sought direct confirmation of this from my doctor i think that the breathing problem was associated with the presence of ketones due to the diabetes i think that ketosis can occur in lesser degree if one is restricting their food intake drastically i don t know if this relevant in this case but you might ask your daughter if she has been eating properly steve kirchoefer code kirchoefer estd nrl navy mil naval research laboratory microwave technology branch washington dc electronics sci and tech division
sci.med	re jiggers in article ppae bt bigboote wpi edu susan wpi wpi edu susan writes a friend of mine has a very severe cause of jiggers for over a year now they cause him a lot of pain i recently read i don t know where about a possible cure for jiggers does anyone have any information on this i can t remember the name of the treatment or where i read it i ll probably get flamed for this but when i was a kid we would go to my uncles cabin on middle bass island on lake erie we always came home with a nasty case of jiggers large red bumps where the buggers had burrowed into the skin my mother would paint the bumps with clear finger nail polish this was repeated daily for about a week or so the application of the polish is supposed to suffocate them as it seals of the skin all i can say is it worked for us one word of caution though putting finger nail polish on a jigger bite stings like hell if i do get flamed for this just put jam in my pockets and call me toast kentcomm jperkski aldhfn akron oh us and kentcomm jperkski legend akron oh us
sci.med	teenage acne my y o son has the usual teenage spotty chin and greasy nose i bought him clearasil face wash and ointment i think that is probably enough along with the usual good diet however he is on at me to get some product called dalacin t which used to be a doctor s prescription only treatment but is not available over the chemist s counter i have asked a couple of pharmacists who say either his acne is not severe enough for dalacin t or that clearasil is ok i had the odd spots as a teenager nothing serious his father was the same so i don t figure his acne is going to escalate into something disfiguring but i know kids are senstitive about their appearance i am wary because a neighbour s son had this wierd malady that was eventually put down to an overdose of vitamin a from acne treatment i want to help but with appropriate treatment my son also has some scaliness around the hairline on his scalp sort of teenage cradle cap any pointers advice on this we have tried a couple of anti dandruff shampoos and some of these are inclined to make the condition worse not better shall i bury the kid till he s the floggings will continue until morale improves pchurch swell actrix gen nz pat churchill wellington new zealand
sci.med	re sex problem larry silverberg ls albnyvms bitnet wrote hello out there she suggested we go to a sex counselor but i really don t want to just yet interesting does she know you have placed this info request on the net for the world to see if not how do you think she would react if she found out why would you accept the advice of unknown entities rather than a counselor any suggestions would be appreciated see the counselor well you asked
sci.med	re oily skin problem in article apr vaxc stevens tech edu u hwong vaxc stevens tech edu writes hi there i have a very oily skin my problem is when i wash my face it becomes oily in half an hour especially in the nose region is this an illness how can i prevent it from occuring in such short time is there a cleanser out there that will do a better job that is after cleaning my face won t become oily in such a short time thank you for any suggestion if this is a disease everyone should have it my skin has always been oily i used to say if i were hot enough you could fry an egg on my oily face i am now yrs old and my skin looks younger i m told than some people s skin at it s still oily i have only a very few tiny wrinkles thank your lucky stars for that skin
sci.med	contraceptive pill a very simple question it seems to me that the contraceptive pill just prevents the ovule to nest in the vagina and forces it to fall every month but it does not prevent the fertilzation of the ovule is it true if yes is there a risk of extra uterine pregnancy that is the development of the ovule inside the fallopian tube j cherbonnier jec zurich ibm com
sci.med	brain tumor treatment thanks there were a few people who responded to my request for info on treatment for astrocytomas through email whom i couldn t thank directly because of mail bouncing probs sean debra and sharon so i thought i d publicly thank everyone thanks i m sure glad i accidentally hit rn instead of rm when i was trying to delete a file last september hmmm news what s this brian
sci.med	re can t breathe update thanks to all those who responded to my original post on this question the final diagnosis was stress i did not take her for a chiropractic adjustment rachel receives all her medical care at keller army hospital since she is a military dependant and the army does not yet provide chiropractic adjustments as part of its regular health care i am hoping that the arrival of spring break and college acceptance letters will help unfortunately she was wait listed at the college she most dearly wanted to attend so it seems as though that stressor may just continue for a while meanwhile she is going on a camping trip with her religious youth group for spring break which seems like a good stress reliever to me thanks again for everybody s help advice suggestions ideas ruth ginzberg rginzberg eagle wesleyan edu philosophy department wesleyan university usa
sci.med	re what about sci med chemistry in julkunen messi uku fi julkunen messi uku fi antero julkunen writes there is this newsgroup sci med physics and there has been quite a lot discussion in this group about many chemical items e g prolactin cholesterol tsh etc should there also be a newsgroup sci med chemistry it s got potential instead of chemistry how about splitting the classification into biochemistry which are probably the topics you re thinking of and pharmaceutical which otherwise might end up in bio chemistry this is separate from the issue of whether there is sufficient potential news volume to support either or both groups i ll add em to my medical health newsgroup wish list which i m looking forward to posting and discussing but not for another days or so pete
sci.med	re inner ear problems from too much flying on apr gmt vida mdavcr mda ca vida morkunas said vida can one develop inner ear problems from too much flying i hear vida that pilots and steward esses have a limit as to the maximum vida number of flying hours what are these limits what are the vida main problems associated with too many long haul over hours vida trips the crew rest requirements are to prevent undue fatigue the cockpit crew pilot limits are somewhat more stringent than the cabin crew limits for this reason crew rest requirements address amount of time on duty plus rest time a tired crew is an accident prone crew the only limits i know of for inner ear problems are in military aircraft which are frequently unpressurized or less reliably pressurized not being able to clear the ears renders aircrew members dnif duties not involving flying or grounded until the ears clear flying can accentuate problems if ears don t clear if you don t have big pressure changes you may not know that you ve got a problem but if you zip up to or ft the usual cabin altitude in an airliner and then back down to sea level you may discover a problem ears don t clear readily because of allergies colds infections and anatomical problems the last won t change the first three can medication decongestants or antihistimines usually can help chewing gum sucking hard candy or a bottle for babies yawning these will help all four causes mary shafer dod kotfr nasa dryden flight research facility edwards ca shafer rigel dfrf nasa gov of course i don t speak for nasa a mig at your six is better than no mig at all unknown us fighter pilot
sci.med	re contraceptive pill jec watson ibm com wrote a very simple question it seems to me that the contraceptive pill just prevents the ovule to nest in the vagina and forces it to fall every month but it does not prevent the fertilzation of the ovule is it true if yes is there a risk of extra uterine pregnancy that is the development of the ovule inside the fallopian tube actually that is not how the pill works but it is how the iud works the oral contraceptive pill actually prevents ovulation from occuring by providing negatve feedback to the pituitary gland and thus preventing the lh surge that normally occurs at the time of ovulation with the iud what happens is that fertilization may occur but the device prevents implantation within the wall of the uterus not the vagina kenneth gilbert university of pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit not a programmer
sci.med	lupus i have a friend who has just been diagnosed with lupus and i know nothing about this disease the only thing i do know is that this is some sort of skin disease and my friend shows no skin rashes in fact they used a blood test to determine what had been wrong with an on going sacro illiac joint problem i am finding a hard time finding information on this disease could anyone please enlighten me as to the particulars of this disease please feel free to e mail me at bytor cruzio santa cruz ca us thanks in advance
sci.med	is an oral form of imitrex sumatriptan available in ca sumatriptan imitrex just became available in the us in a subcutaneous injectable form is there an oral form available in ca a friend yes really not me has severe migranes about times per week we live right by the ca border and he has gotten drugs for gerd prescribed by a us physician and filled in a ca pharmacy but not yet fda approved in the us what would be the cost of the oral form in ca also if anyone would have that info thanks
sci.med	re twitching eye i had this one time i attributed it to a lack of sleep since it disappeared after a few nights of good zzz s
sci.med	inner ear problems from too much flying can one develop inner ear problems from too much flying i hear that pilots and steward esses have a limit as to the maximum number of flying hours what are these limits what are the main problems associated with too many long haul over hours trips frequent flyer
sci.med	re human breast feeding myths or reality in article c vhwo hlt tripos com homer tripos com webster homer writes rjasoar vnet ibm com robert j alexander md writes i have an additional question how long should a mother breast feed her child a friend of mine is still nursing her two year old is this beneficial her ex husband is trying to use her coninued nursing of a two year old as proof of her being unfit to be a mother what studies have been done on breast feeding past a year etc upon the psychological health of the child web homer my wife breast fed my three boys months months and months respectively and they are and years old respectively so far everybody seems fairly normal i noticed a negative correlation with ear infections and length of time nursed in my very small sample i do notice that the and year old seem to eat a lot could that be from the breast feeding i don t understand the unfit mother charge other than any tactic is not too low down for some folks during divorce child custody battles most of the developing nations practice breast feeding to and years old are they screwed up because of it would they be much better off if they could use cow s milk or commercial formula doctors bobby akgua rjb
sci.med	recurrent volvulus recurrent volvulus this is regarding recurrent volvulus which our little boy has been suffering from ever since he was an infant he had a surgery when he was one year old another surgery had to be performed one year after when he was two years old he turned three this february and he is still getting afflicted by this illness like having to get hospitalised for vomitting and accompanying stomach pain he managed not having a third surgery so far one thing me and my wife noticed is that his affliction peaks around the time he was born on nearabouts like in march every year any significance to this why does this recur me and my family go through severe pain when our little boy have to undergo surgery why does surgery not rectify the situation also which hospital in us or canada specialize in this malady what will be a good book explaining this disease in detail will keeping a particular diet keep down the probability of recurrence as time goes on will the probability of recurrence go down considering he is getting stronger and healthier and probably less prone to attacks or is this assumption wrong any help throwing light on these queries will be highly appreciated thanks very much jose csd uwo ca
sci.med	re smoker s lungs in article apr kuhub cc ukans edu bennett kuhub cc ukans edu writes how long does it take a smoker s lungs to clear of the tar after quitting does your chances of getting lung cancer decrease quickly or does it take a considerable amount of time for that to happen seems to me that i read in either a recent ny times science times or maybe it was science news that there is evidence that ex smoker s risk of lung cancer never returns to that of a person who has never smoked i think it may get close i ll find the article and post it since my memory is hazy on the specifics if you are interested michael
sci.med	re various migraine therapies in article c htmw h j olsen ch lindy olsen ch lindy foster writes i ve been treated to many therapies for migraine prophylaxis and treatment and it looks like they ll try a few more on me i have taken propanolol i think it was mg xdaily with no relief i have just been started mg per day of propranolol is a homeopathic dose in migraine if you got fatigued at that level it is unlikely that you will tolerate enough beta blocker to help you if we go the antidepressant route what is it likely to be how do antidepressants work in migraine prophylaxis probably a single nightime dose we don t know how they work in migraine but it probably has something to do with seratonin gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re vangus nerve vagus nerve in article seismo css gov bwb seismo css gov brian w barker writes mostly right is there a connection between vomiting and fainting that has something to do with the vagus nerve stimulation of the vagus nerve slows the heart and drops the blood pressure gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re migraines in article drand mar spinner osf org drand spinner osf org douglas s rand writes so i ll ask this my neurologist just prescribed cafergot and midrin as some alternatives for me to try he stated that the sublingual tablets of ergotamine were no longer available any idea why he also suggested trying mg ibuprophen i just found out about the sublinguals disappearing too i don t know why perhaps because they weren t as profitable as cafergot too bad since tablets are sometimes vomited up by migraine patients and they don t do any good flushed down the toilet i suspect we ll be moving those patients more and more to the dhe nasal spray which is far more effective gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re aids related questions in article pxf psuvm psu edu pxf psuvm psu edu paula ford writes a friend of mine was a regular volunteer blood donor during surgery he was given five units of blood and after a suitable recovery time he went to donate blood at a bloodmobile he was hiv and did not know it the red cross notified him with a registered letter that s all no counselling no nothing he died two years ago this week he left behind how long ago was this when i said you d get counselling i meant if you did it now long ago practices varied and agencies had to gear up to provide the counselling a wife and a four year old son many people have suggested that his wife should sue the red cross but she would not she says that without the blood transfusions he would have died during the surgery good for her what we don t need is everyone suing community service agencies that provide blood that people need testing is not fool proof the fact that he got aids from a transfusion if he really did does not mean the red cross screwed up prior to or so there wasn t a good test and a lot of bad blood got through this wasn t the fault of the red cross when did he get the transfusions gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re health care reform in article lmc wrc wrgrace com custer wrc wrgrace com linda custer writes this is my first post and i am not even sure it will work here goes did anyone read the editorial on page in the march edition of time magazine noting that managed care is extremely inefficient of all the possible clients that billary could be pandering to the insurance industry is the worst comments i agree adding layers of managers and bureaucrats simply eat up money that could be spent on those who actually are doing the work such as doctors and nurse and supplies the most efficient system is probably one that has limited management and a fixed budget such as england s or even canada s i m afraid we are on the wrong track the problem may be that the insurance lobby is too powerful gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re health care reform in article mar cnsvax uwec edu nyeda cnsvax uwec edu david nye writes and may be a total disaster and that the canadian model is preferable a position with which i agree the other is surprising sympathy for the physicians in all of this to the effect that beating up on us won t help anything i m not sure about that did you see the poll they took that showed that most people thought physicians should be paid per year tops that s all i make but i doubt that most physicians are going to work very hard for that kind of bread many wouldn t be able to service their med school debts on that mike royko had a good column about it gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re update help was what is this is it lyme s in article mar equator com jod equator com john setel o donnell writes imho you have lyme disease i told you this in private email and predicted that you might next start having the migrating pains and further joint imho the original poster has no business soliciting diagnoses off the net nor does dr mr o donnell have any business supplying same this is one major reason real physicians avoid this newsgroup like the plague it is also another example of the double standard if i as a physician offered to diagnose and treat on the net i can be sued but people without qualifications are free to do whatever they want and disclaim it all with i m not a doctor get and keep this crap off the net period km
sci.med	re patient physician diplomacy in article c hyou iz mentor cc purdue edu hrubin pop stat purdue edu herman rubin writes in article ky b uucp km ky b pgh pa us ken mitchum writes ditto disease is a great leveling experience however some people are very much afronted to find out that all the money in the world does not buy one health everyone looks the same when they die if money does not buy one health why are we talking about paying for medical expenses for those not currently adequately covered herman i would think you of all people would could distinguish between health and treatment of disease all the prevention medicine people preach this all the time you cannot buy health you can buy treatment of disease assuming you are lucky enough to have a disease which can be treated a rich person with a terminal disease is a bit out of luck there is no such thing as adequately covered and there never will be and for what it s worth i ll be the first to admit that all my patients die km
sci.med	re immotile cilia syndrome in article mar ncsu edu andrea unity ncsu edu andrea m free kwiatkowski writes i would like to know if there is any new information out there about the subject or any new studies being conducted i am confident in my pediatrician and her communication with the people in chapel hill but since this is a life long disorder and genetically transferred i would like keep current i do realize that since this is a relatively new disorder first documented in in a fertility clinic in scandanavia and is therefore controversial i do not know a lot about this except from seeing one patient with kartagener s syndrome which is a form of immotile cilia syndrome in which there is situs inversus bronchiectasis and chronic infections situs inversus means that organs are on the wrong side of the body and can be complete or partial it is interesting medically because the normal location of organs is caused in part by the normal rotation associated with ciliary motion so that in absence of this laterality can be random people with situs inversus are quite popular at medical schools because of their rarity and the fact that most doctors get a bit upset when they can t find the patient s heart sounds because they re on the wrong side according to harrison s immotile cilia syndrom is an autosomal recessive which should imply that on average one child in four in a family would be affected but there may be much more current information on this and as usual in medicine we may be talking about more than one conditiion i would suggest that you ask your pediatrician about contacting a medical geneticics specialist of which there is probably one at ncsu km
sci.med	re lung disorders and clubbing of fingers in article slagle mar sgi msd lmsc lockheed com slagle lmsc lockheed com writes can anyone out there enlighten me on the relationship between lung disorders and clubbing or swelling and widening of the fingertips what is the mechanism and why would a physician call for chest xrays to diagnose the cause of the clubbing purists often distinguish between true clubbing and pseudo clubbing the difference being that with true clubbing the angle of the nail when viewed from the side is constantly negative when proceeding distally towards the fingertip with pseudo clubbing the angle is initially positive then negative which is the normal situation real internists can talk for hours about clubbing i m limited to a couple of minutes whether this distinction has anything to do with reality is entirely unclear but it is one of those things that internists love to paw over during rounds supposedly only true clubbing is associated with disease the problem is that the list of diseases associated with clubbing is quite long and includes both congenital conditions and acquired disease since many of these diseases are associated with cardiopulmonary problems leading to right to left shunts and chronic hypoxemia it is very reasonable to get a chest xray however many of the congenital abnormalities would only be diagnosed with a cardiac catheterization the cause of clubbing is unclear but presumably relates to some factor causing blood vessels in the distal fingertip to dilate abnormally clubbing is one of those things from an examination which is a tipoff to do more extensive examination often however the cause of the clubbing is quite apparent km
sci.med	re open letter to hillary rodham clinton how about posting one of her replies to your letters km
sci.med	re menangitis question in article c nzn mzx crdnns crd ge com brooksby brigham nosubdomain nodomain glen w brooksby writes this past weekend a friend of mine lost his month old daughter in a matter of hours to a form of menangitis the person informing me called it nicereal meningicocis sp in retrospect the disease struck her probably sometime on friday evening and she passed away about pm on saturday the symptoms seemed to be a rash that started small and then began progressing rapidly she began turning blue eventually which was the tip off that this was serious but by that time it was too late this is all second hand info my question is is this an unusual form of menangitis how is it transmitted how does it work ie how does it kill so quickly there are many organisms viral bacterial and fungal which can cause meningitits and the course of these infections varies widely the causes of bacterial meningitis vary with age in adults pneumococcus the same organism which causes pneumococcal pneumonia is the most common cause while in children hemophilus influenzae is the most common cause what you are describing is meningitis from neisseria meningitidis which is the second most common cause of bacterial meningitis in both groups but with lower incidence in infants this organism is also called the meningococcus and is the source of the common epidemics of meningitis that occur and are popularized in the press without prompt treatment and even with it in some cases the organism typically causes death within a day this organism feared as it is is actually grown from the throats of many normal adults it can get to the meninges by different ways but blood borne spread is probably the usual case rifampin an oral antibiotic is often given to family and contacts of a case of meningococcal meningitis by the way sorry but i don t have time for a more detailed reply meningitis is a huge topic and sci med can t do it justice km
sci.med	re aids related questions in article pxf psuvm psu edu pxf psuvm psu edu paula ford writes we know ours is not hiv and people need it i think my husband should give blood especially because his is o and i understand that s a very useful blood type it s o that is especially useful still he isn t punishing the red cross but some o person that needed his blood and couldn t get it you are right nagging probably won t help gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re update help was what is this is it lyme s in article mar equator com jod equator com john setel o donnell writes i shouldn t have to be posting here physicians should know the lyme literature beyond steere co s denial merry go round patients should get correctly diagnosed and treated why do you think steere is doing this isn t he acting in good faith after all as the discoverer of lyme for all intents and purposes the more famous lyme gets the more famous steere gets i don t see the ulterior motive here it is easy for me to see it the those physicians who call everything lyme and treat everything there is a lot of money involved i m a computer engineer not a doctor jim i was building a computer manufacturing company when i got lyme i lost several years of my life to near total disability partially as a result the company failed taking with it over jobs my savings and everything i d worked for for years i m one of the lucky ones in that i found a physician through the lyme foundation and now can work almost full time although i have persistent infection and still suffer a variety of sypmtoms and now i try to follow the lyme literature well it is tragic what has happened to you but it doesn t necessarily make you the most objective source of information about it if your whole life is focussed around this you may be too emotionally involved to be advising other people who may or may not have lyme certainly advocacy of more research on lyme would not be out of order though and people like you can be very effective there gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re can t breathe in article p t p mvv agate berkeley edu romdas uclink berkeley edu ella i baff writes re the prostate treatment is worse than the disease in medicine there really is something histologically identified as prostate tissue and there are observable changes which take place that whenever they occur can be identified as prostate cancer what if i told you that most chiropractorstreat subluxation spinal demons which don t exist at all therefore any tissue damage incurred in a chiropractic treatment performed in an effort to exorcise this elusive silent killer such as ligamentous damage and laxity microfracture of the joint surfaces rib fractures strokes paralysis etc is by definition worse than non treatment john badanes dc ca email romdas uclink berkeley edu what does dc stand for couldn t be an antichiropractic posting from a chiropractor could it my curiosity is piqued prostate ca is an especially troublesome entity for chiropractors it so typically causes bone pain due to spinal metastases that it gets manipulated frequently manipulating a cancer riddled bone is highly dangerous since it can then fracture i ve seen at least three cases where this happened with resulting neurologic damage including paraplegia this is one instance where knowing how to read x rays can really help a chiropractor stay out of trouble do chiropractors know what bony mets from prostate look like gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re menangitis question in article c nzn mzx crdnns crd ge com brooksby brigham nosubdomain nodomain glen w brooksby writes this past weekend a friend of mine lost his month old daughter in a matter of hours to a form of menangitis the person informing me called it nicereal meningicocis sp in retrospect the disease struck her probably sometime on friday evening and she passed away about pm on saturday the symptoms seemed to be a rash that started small and then began progressing rapidly she began turning blue eventually which was the tip off that this was serious but by that time it was too late this is all second hand info my question is is this an unusual form of menangitis how is it transmitted how does it work ie how does it kill so quickly no the neiseria meningococcus is one of the most common forms of meningitis it s the one that sometimes sweeps schools or boot camp it is contagious and kills by attacking the covering of the brain causing the blood vessels to thrombose and the brain to swell up it is very treatable if caught in time there isn t much time however the rash is the tip off infants are very susceptible to dying from bacterial meningitis any infant with a fever who becomes stiff or lethargic needs to be rushed to a hospital where a spinal tap will show if they have meningitis seizures can also occur immediate family members were told to take some kind of medication to prevent them from being carriers yet they didn t have any concerns about my wife and i coming to visit them it can live in the throat of carriers don t worry you won t get it from them especially if they took the medication gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re can t breathe in article mar tijc uucp pjs tijc uucp paul schmidt writes i think it is important to verify all procedures with proper studies to show their worthiness and risk i just read an interesting tidbit that of the medical treatments are unproven and not based on scientific fact for example many treatments of prostate cancer are unproven and the treatment may be more dangerous than the disease according to the article i read where did you read this i don t think this is true i think most medical treatments are based on science although it is difficult to prove anything with certitude it is true that there are some things that have just been found to work but we have no good explanation for why but almost everything does have a scientific rationale the most common treatment for prostate cancer is probably hormone therapy it has been proven to work so have radiation and chemotherapy what treatments did the article say are not proven gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re sinus vs migraine was re sinus endoscopy i noticed several years ago that when i took analgesics fairly regularly motrin at the time i seemed to get a lot of migraines but had forgotten about that until i started reading some of the posts here i generally don t take nsaids or tylenol for headaches because i ve found them to be ineffective however i have two other pain sources that force me to take nsaids currently naprosyn first is some pelvic pain that i get at the beginning of my period and then much worse at midcycle i have had surgery for endometriosis in the past years ago so the drs tell me that my pain is probably due to the endometriosis coming back i ve tried synarel it reduced the pain while i took it mos but the pain returned immediately after i stopped three doctors have suggested hysterectomy as the only real solution to my problem although i don t expect to have any more children i don t like the idea of having my uterus and one remaining ovary removed the first ovary was removed when i had the surgery for endometriosis one of the drs that suggested i get a hysterectomy is an expert in laser surgery but perhaps thinks that type of procedure is only worthwhile on women who still plan to have children so basically all i m left with is toughing out the pain this would be impossible without naprosyn or something similar but not aspirin that doesn t work and motrin gave me horrible gastritis a few years ago so i m through with it in fact naprosyn works very well at eliminating the pain if i take it regularly as i did when i had severe back pain and pain in both legs as i ll discuss in a moment generally though i wait until i have the pain before i take the naprosyn but then it takes several hours for it reduce the pain it s actually quite effective at reducing the pain it just takes quite a while in the meantime i m frequently in severe pain the other pain source i have is chronic lower back pain resulting in bilateral radiculopathy i ve had mris xrays ct scan and emgs i ve had of them and don t intend to ever do that again with nerve conduction tests the tests have not been conclusive as to what is causing my back and leg pain the mri reports both say i have several bulging degeneratig disks and from the xrays and mri i think it is apparent that i have arthritis the reading on the ct scan was that there are two herniations l l and l l but others hav looked at the films and concluded that there are no herniations the second emg and nerve conduction studies shows significant denervation compared to the first emg oh yeah i had some other horrible test called something like somatic evoked response which showed that the internal nerves are working fine anyway the bottom line is that i sometimes have severe pain in both legs and back pain the back pain is there all the time but i can live with it when the leg pain is there i need some analgesic anti inflammatory medication to reduce the pain to a level where i can work so i took naprosyn regulary for months every time i tried to stop the leg pain got worse so i d always resume since last november i have taken it much less frequently and primarily for the pelvic pain i have been going to physical therapy for the last months times a week after the first month or so my therapist put me on pelvic traction she had tried it earlier but it had caused a lot of pain in my back this time she tried it at a lower weight after a month or two the pain in my legs began going away but the traction aways caused discomfort in my lower back which could be reduced with ultrasound and massage so now i don t have nearly as much pain in my legs in fact my therapist took me off traction about weeks ago getting back to my original reason for this post even if i can avoid taking analgesic for headaches i really can t avoid them entirely because i have other pain sources that force me to use them oh i forgot to mention that it has been suggested to me that i have back surgery but i m avoiding that too i find the migraines difficult to deal with occassionally i have to take off work but usually i can work but at a reduced capacity i m a systems engineer and do a lot of reading and writing when the pelvic pain is bad i can t concentrate much i usually end up jumping out of my chair every few minutes because the pain is so bothersome when the pain in my back is bad it can cause severe burning in both legs shooting pains in my legs electric shock type of pain in my feet and toes and basically when it gets bad i can t really sit at all then i end up spending most of my time home and in bed so even if the analgesics contribute to the migraines the migraines are more tolerable than the other pain sources i get a lot of migraines an average of to a month which last days i ve taken cafergot the first time the caffiene really got to me so i reduced the dosage but i don t like the side effects if i take more than two i get diahrea if i get a very bad headache i will eventually take the cafergot my neurologist wasn t very helpful when i told him my problems with cafergot he said that when sumatriptan becomes available i should try that i ve tried several other medications fiornal midrin fiornal with codeine tegretol and inderal but they either didn t work or i couldn t tolerate them so what can i do my doctor s seem to be satisfied with me just trying to tolerate the pain which i agree with most of the time but not when i have a lot of pain i ve had some bad experiences with surgery my heart stopped once from the anesthesia i was told that it was likely the succinylcholine and i ve already had surgery several times anyway the point of what i m saying is that even if analgesics can contribute to migraines some people need to take them to tolerate other pain janice rathmann
sci.med	re teenage acne pchurch swell actrix gen nz pat churchill writes my y o son has the usual teenage spotty chin and greasy nose i bought him clearasil face wash and ointment i think that is probably enough along with the usual good diet however he is on at me to get some product called dalacin t which used to be a doctor s prescription only treatment but is not available over the chemist s counter i have asked a couple of pharmacists who say either his acne is not severe enough for dalacin t or that clearasil is ok i had the odd spots as a teenager nothing serious his father was the same so i don t figure his acne is going to escalate into something disfiguring but i know kids are senstitive about their appearance i am wary because a neighbour s son had this wierd malady that was eventually put down to an overdose of vitamin a from acne treatment i want to help but with appropriate treatment my son also has some scaliness around the hairline on his scalp sort of teenage cradle cap any pointers advice on this we have tried a couple of anti dandruff shampoos and some of these are inclined to make the condition worse not better shall i bury the kid till he s no i was one of the lucky ones very little acne as a teenager i didn t have any luck with clearasil even though my skin gets oily it really only gets miserable pimples when it s dry frequent lukewarm water rinses on the face might help getting the scalp thing under control might help that could be as simple as submerging under the bathwater till it s softened and washing it out taking a one a day vitamin mineral might help i ve heard iodine causes trouble and that it is used in fast food restaurants to sterilize equipment which might be where the belief that greasy foods cause acne came from i notice grease on my face not immediately removed will cause acne even from eating meat keeping hair rinse mousse dip and spray off the face will help warm water bath soaks or cloths on the face to soften the oil in the pores will help prevent blackheads body oil is hydrophilic loves water and it softens and washes off when it has a chance that s why hair goes limp with oilyness becoming convinced that the best thing to do with a whitehead is leave it alone will save him days of pimple misery any prying of black or whiteheads can cause infections the red spots of pimples usually a whitehead will break naturally in a day and there won t be an infection afterwards tell him that it s normal to have some pimples but the cosmetic industry makes it s money off of selling people on the idea that they are an incredible defect to be hidden at any cost even that of causing more pimples jackie
sci.med	re ringing ears jfare iss waterloo ncr com jim fare writes a friend of mine has a trouble with her ears ringing etc a folks do we have an faq on tinnitus yet b as a lo o o ong time sufferer of tinnitus and as a neuroscientist who has looked over the literature carefully i believe the following are reasonable conclusions millions of people suffer from chronic tinnitus the cause it not understood there is no accepted treatment that cures it some experimental treatments may have helped some people a bit but there have be no reports even anecdotal of massive good results with any of these experimental drugs some people with chronic loud tinnitus use noise blocking to get to sleep sudden onset loud tinnitus can be caused by injuries and sometimes abates or goes away after a few months aspirin is well known to exacerbate tinnitus in some people there is a national association of tinnitus sufferers in the us one usually gets used to it especially when concentrating on something else the tinnitus becomes unnoticed stress and lack of sleep make tinnitus more annoying sometimes i m sure those of us who have it wish there was a cure but there is not mark dubin the ol professor
sci.med	re jiggers i may not be the world s greatest expert on chiggers a type of mite indigenous to the south but i certainly have spent a lot of time contemplating the little buggers over the past six years since we moved to n c here are some observations gained from painful experience reactions to chiggers vary greatly from person to person some people get tiny red bites others like me are more sensitive and get fairly large swollen sore like affairs chigger bites are the gift that keeps on giving i swear that these things will itch for months there is a lot of folklore about chiggers i think most of it is fiction i have tried to do research on the critters since they have such an effect on me the only book i could find on the subject was a single book in unc s special collections library i have not yet gone through what is required to get it based on my experience and that of my family members the old folk remedy of fingernail polish simply doesn t work i recall reading that the theory upon which it is based that the chiggers burrow into your skin and continue to party there is false i think it is more likely that the reaction is to toxins of some sort the little pests release but this is speculation the best approach is prevention a couple of things work well a good insect repellent deet such as deep woods off liberally applied to ankles waistband etc is a good start there is another preparation called chig away that is a combination of sulfur and some kind of cream cortisone that originally was prepared for the army and is not commercially available in the summer i put this on my ankles every morning when i get up on weekends since i literally can t go outside where we live in the country without serious consequences they apparently don t like sulfur much at all you can use sulfur as a dust on your body or clothing to repel them no amount of prevention will be completely successful forget the fingernail polish i have finally settled upon a treatment that involves topical application of a combination of cortisone creme reduces the inflamation and swelling and benzocaine relieves the itch i won t tell you all the things i ve tried nor will i tell you some of the things my wife does since this counts as minor surgery and is best not mentioned i also think it gains nothing the swelling and itching can also be significantly relieved by the application of hot packs and this seems to speed recovery as well doctors seem not to care much about chiggers the urban and suburban doctors apparently don t encounter them much and the rural doctors seem to regard them as a force of nature that one must endure i suspect that anyone who could come up with a good treatment for chiggers would make a lot of money gary h merrill principal systems developer c compiler development sas institute inc sas campus dr cary nc sasghm theseus unx sas com mcnc sas sasghm
sci.med	re my new diet it works great in article mar inmet camb inmet com mazur bluefin camb inmet com beth mazur writes in article ov toinnh h lynx unm edu bhjelle carina unm edu writes on the other hand we do a good job of implying that the person who weighs lbs is overeating when in fact the body probably doesn t make any moral judgements about its composition conceivably the body works just as hard maintaining its weight at as someone else s does at undoubtedly it does to maintain such a weight and it does so primarily by overeating if it didn t the weight would drop back to normal gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re blindsight in article werner tol mac soe berkeley edu werner soe berkeley edu john werner writes in article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu gordon banks wrote explain i thought there were types of cones equivalent to rgb you re basically right but i think there are just types one is sensitive to red and green and the other is sensitive to blue and yellow this is why the two most common kinds of color blindness are red green and blue yellow yes i remember that now well in that case the cones are indeed color sensitive contrary to what the original respondent had claimed gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re sinus vs migraine was re sinus endoscopy in article lauger lauger mdc com lauger ssdgwy mdc com john lauger writes in article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu gordon banks wrote what s the best approach to getting off the analgesics is there something two approaches that i ve used tofranil mg qhs naproxen mg bid the naproxen doesn t seem to be as bad as things like tylenol in promoting the analgesic abuse headache dhe iv infusions for about days in hospital cold turkey is the only way i think tapering doesn t help i wouldn t know how you can do this without your doctor i haven t seen anyone successfully do it alone doesn t mean it can t be done gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re sinus vs migraine was re sinus endoscopy in article mar news eng convex com cash convex com peter cash writes by the way does the brain even have pain receptors i thought not i heard that brain surgery can be performed while the patient is conscious for precisely this reason no no we aren t talking about receptors for the brain s sensory innervation but structures such as the thalamus that handle pain for the entire organism apples and oranges gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re tuberculosis in article mar news columbia edu jhl cunixa cc columbia edu jonathan h lin writes i was wondering what steps are being taken to prevent the spread of multi drug resistant tuberculosis i ve heard that some places are thinking of incarcerating those with the disease doesn t this violate the civil rights of these individuals are there any legal precedents for such action who knows in this legal climate but there is tremendous legal precendent for forcibly quarantining tb patients in sanitariums yrs ago it was done all the time it has been done sporadically all along in patients who won t take their medicine if you have tb you may find yourself under surveilence of the public health department and you may find they have the legal power to insist you make your clinic visits gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re blindsight in article mar cs rochester edu fulk cs rochester edu mark fulk writes in article castle ed ac uk hrvoje castle ed ac uk h hecimovic writes compensation or are lesions localized to the sc too rare to be able to tell extremely rare in humans usually so much else is involved you d just have a mess to sort out birds do all vision in the tectum don t they gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re name of md s eyepiece in article c ihm gs watson ibm com clarke watson ibm com ed clarke writes it s not an eyepiece it is called a head mirror all doctors never a speculum the speculum is the little cone that fits on the end of the otoscope there are also vaginal specula that females and gynecologists are all too familiar with gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re patient physician diplomacy in article mar aoa aoa utc com carl aoa aoa utc com carl witthoft writes what is unacceptable about this is that hospitals and mds by law have no choice but to treat you if you show up sick or mangled from an accident if you aren t rich and have no insurance who is going to foot your bills do you actually intend to tell the ambulance no let me die in the gutter because i can t afford the treatment by law they would not be allowed to do that anyhow gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re exercise hypertension in article rfm psuvm psu edu rfm psuvm psu edu writes i took a stress test a couple weeks back and results came back noting exercise hypertension fool that i am i didn t ask doc what this meant and she didn t explain and now i m wondering can anyone out there enlighten and i promise next time i ll ask probably she meant that your blood pressure went up while you were on the treadmill this is normal you ll have to ask her if this is what she meant since no one else can answer for another person gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re striato nigral degeneration in article aa walrus mvhs edu ktodd walrus mvhs edu ken todd writes i would like any information available on this rare disease i understand that an operation referred to as pollidotomy may be in order does anyone know of a physician that performs this procedure all responses will be appreciated please respond via email to ktodd walrus mvhs edu it isn t that rare actually many cases that are called parkinson s disease turn out on autopsy to be snd it should be suspected in any case of parkinsonism without tremor and which does not respond to l dopa therapy i don t believe pallidotomy will do much for snd gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re morbus meniere is there a real remedy in article lindaec jglk fxm netcom com lindae netcom com writes my biggest resentment is the doctor who makes it seem like most people with dizziness can be cured that s definitely not the case in most cases like i said above it is a long tedious process that may or may not end up in a partial cure be sure to say chronic dizziness not just dizziness most patients with acute or subacute dizziness will get better the vertiginous spells of meniere s will also eventually go away however the patient is left with a deaf ear to anyone suffering with vertigo dizziness or any variation thereof my best advice to you as a fellow sufferer is this just keep searching don t let the doctors tell you there s nothing that can be done do your own research and let your this may have helped you but i m not sure it is good general advice the odds that you are going to find some miracle with your own research that is secret or hidden from general knowledge for this or any other disease are slim when good answers to these problems are found it is usually in all the newspapers until then spending a great deal of time and energy on the medical problem may divert that energy from more productive things in life a limited amount should be spent to assure yourself that your doctor gave you the correct story but after it becomes clear that you are dealing with a problem for which medicine has no good solution perhaps the best strategy is to join the support group and keep abreast of new findings but not to make a career out of it gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re donating organs in article mar sbcs sunysb edu mhollowa ic sunysb edu michael holloway writes dr banks i don t know if you make a point of keeping up with liver transplant research but you re certainly in the right place for these questions has there been anything recent in transplant proceedings or somesuch on xenografts how about liver section transplants from living donors i m sure the pittsburgh group has published the baboon work but i don t know where in chicago they were doing lobe transplants from living donors and i m sure they ve published i don t read the transplant literature i just see the liver transplant patients when they get into neurologic trouble pretty frequent so that and the newspapers and scuttlebutt is the way i keep up with what they are doing howard doyle works with them and can tell you more gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re update help was what is this is it lyme s in article mar equator com jod equator com john setel o donnell writes imho you have lyme disease i sent you in private email a summary of the treatment protocols put forth by the lyme disease foundation i respectfully suggest that you save yourself a great deal of suffering by contacting them for a lyme knowledgeable physician referral and seek treatment at once you ll know in weeks if you re on the right course and the clock is ticking on your weeks if you have it lyme if these folks are who i think they are lyme knowledgeable may mean a physician to whom everything that walks in the door is lyme disease and you will be treated for lyme whether or not you have it hope you have good insurance gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re use of codine in narcolepsy in article mar aio jsc nasa gov stevel aio jsc nasa gov steve lancaster writes is there any way around the scheduled drug mess so that he can use just the substance that works and not one adulterated with tylenol can the md perscribe a year long supply on one script his doctor basically refused to prescribe it saying his clinic does not prescribe controled substances its is company rule short of changes by the feds there is no way codeine alone is very difficult to prescribe without a lot of hassles tylenol is the best compromise that way he can get refills the amount of acetominophen he is getting with his codeine won t hurt him any gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re migraines and estrogen in article fb b w w jupiter spk wa us pwageman jupiter spk wa us peggy wageman writes i read that hormonal fluctuations can contribute to migraines could taking supplemental estrogen ert cause migraines any information i m not sure it is the fluctuation so much as the estrogen level taking premarin can certainly cause migraines in some women gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re migraine and exercise in article c iozx wx world std com rsilver world std com richard silver writes i have two questions is there any obvious connection between the flushed appearance and the migraine was i foolish to play through the migraine aside from the visual disturbance affecting my play i just prefer to ignore it when possible the flushing is due to vascular dilation part of a migraine attack some people event get puffy and swollen as long as you are careful you can see well enough to avoid getting hit in the face or eye by the ball migraine will not hurt your health gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re new multiple sclerosis drug in article news duke edu adm neuro duke edu alan magid writes disclaimer i speak only for myself so just what was it you wanted to say gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re need info on rsd in article mar rmtc central sun com lrd rmtc central sun com writes i just started working for a rehabilitation hospital and have seen rsd come up as a diagnosis several times what exactly is rsd and what is the nature of it if there is a faq on this subject i d really appreciate it if someone would mail it to me while any and all reflex sympathetic dystrophy i m sure there s an faq as i have made at least answers to questions on it in the last year or so gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re tuberculosis in article mar news wesleyan edu rginzberg eagle wesleyan edu ruth ginzberg writes but i ll be damned his rights to be sick to fail to treat his disease to spread it all over the place were indeed preserved happy several years ago i tried to commit a patient who was growing salmonella out of his stool blood and an open ulcer for treatment the idea was that the guy was a walking public health risk and that forcing him to receive iv antibiotics for a few days was in the public interest i will make a long story short by saying that the judge laughed at my idea yelled at me for wasting his time and let the guy go i found out that tuberculosis appears to be the only medical as oppsed to psychiatric condition that one can be committed for and this is because very specific laws were enacted many years ago regarding tb i am certain these vary from state to state any legal experts out there to help us on this km
sci.med	re amitriptyline in article mar julian uwo ca roberts gaul csd uwo ca eric roberts writes could someone please tell me what effect an overdose mg of amitriptyline would have probably would not be fatal in an adult at that dose but could kill a child patient would be very somnolent with dilated pupils low blood pressure possibly cardiac arrhythmias gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re medication for parkinsons in article uupcb factory com jim zisfein factory com jim zisfein writes if you want to throw around names drs donald calne terry elizan and jesse cedarbaum don t recommend selegiline not to mention dr william landau gosh jesse is that famous now he was my intern landau not liking it makes me like it out of spite just kidding bill gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re fingernail moons in article aa calcom socal com daniel prince f n z calcom socal com daniel prince writes i only have lunulas on my thumbs is there any medical significance to that finding thank you in advance for all replies try peeling the skin back at the base of your other fingernails not too hard now don t want to hurt yourself you ll find nice little lunulas there if you can peel it back enough gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re health care reform in article lmc wrc wrgrace com custer wrc wrgrace com linda custer writes also i m not sure that physician fees at the very very highest levels don t have to come down i m not talking about the bulk of physicians making good but not great salaries who have mega loans from medical school debts i d also like to see some strong ethics with teeth for physicians i agree that some specialties have gotten way out of line the main problem is the payment method for procedures rather than time distorts the system i hope they will fix that but i m afraid as usual the local doc is going to take the brunt people grouse about paying to see their home doctor in his office but don t mind paying to have brain surgery they think their local doc is cheating them but worship the feet of the neurosurgeon who saved their life what they don t realize is that we need more local docs and fewer gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re high prolactin in article jer psuvm psu edu jer psuvm psu edu john e rodway writes any comments on the use of the drug parlodel for high prolactin in the blood it can suppress secretion of prolactin is useful in cases of galactorrhea some adenomas of the pituitary secret too much gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re toxoplasmosis in article isoit bbn hp com sude isoit bbn hp com susanne denninger writes how dangerous is it from whom is it especially dangerous dangerous only to immune suppressed persons and fetuses to them it is extremely dangerous most of the rest of us have already had it and it isn t dangerous at all how is it transmitted i read about raw meat and cats but i d like to have more details cat feces are the worst pregnant women should never touch the litter box what can be done to prevent infection cook your meat watch it with pets what are the symptoms and long term effects you ll have to read up on it what treatments are availble there is an effective antibiotic that can keep it in check of course it can t reverse damage already done such as in a fetus gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re my new diet it works great in article mar omen uucp caf omen uucp chuck forsberg wa kgx writes sometime in the future diet evangelists may get off their our diet will work if only the obese would obey it mode and do useful research to allow prediction of which types of diet might be useful to a given individual diet evangelist good term fits atkins to a t gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	should patients read package inserts pdr in article mar news wesleyan edu rginzberg eagle wesleyan edu ruth ginzberg writes hmmmm here s one place where i really think the patient ought to take more responsibility for him or herself there is absolutely no reason why you can t ask the pharmacist filling the prescription for the physicians package insert for the medication when you pick it up at the pharmacy make sure to tell the pharmacist that you want the physicians package insert not the if people are going to do this i really wish they would tell me first i d be happy to go over the insert in the pdr with them and explain everything all too many patients read the insert and panic and then on the next visit sheepishly admit they were afraid to take the drug and we are starting over again at square one some of them probably didn t even come back for followup because they didn t want to admit they wouldn t take the drug or thought i was trying to kill them or something what people don t understand about the inserts is that they report every adverse side effect ever reported without substantiating that the drug was responsible the insert is a legal document to slough liability from the manufacturer to the physician if something was to happen if patients want to have the most useful and reliable information on a drug they would be so much better off getting hold of one of the ama drug evaluation books or something similar that is much more scientific there are very few drugs that someone hasn t reported a death from taking patients don t realize that and don t usually appreciate the risks to themselves properly i m sure herman is going to go ballistic but so be it another problem is that probably most drugs have been reported to cause impotence half the males who read that will falsely assume it could permanently cause them to lose sexual function and so will refuse to take any drug like that this can be a real problem for pdr readers there needs to be some way of providing patients with tools geared to them that allow them to get the information they need i am involved in a research project to do that with migraine as the domain it involves a computer system that will provide answers to questions about migraine as well as the therapy prescribed for the patient for common illnesses such as migraine and hypertension this may help quite a bit the patient could spend as much time as needed with the computer and this would then not burden the physician clearly physicians in large part fail to answer all the questions patients have as is demonstrated over and over here on the net where we get asked things that the patients should have found out from their physician but didn t why they didn t isn t always the physician s fault either sometimes the patients are afraid to ask they won t be as afraid to ask the system we hope gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re tuberculosis in article ky b uucp km ky b pgh pa us ken mitchum writes i found out that tuberculosis appears to be the only medical as oppsed to psychiatric condition that one can be committed for and this is because very specific laws were enacted many years ago regarding tb i am certain these vary from state to state i think in illinois venereal disease the old ones not aids was included syphillis was for sure gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re tuberculosis in article mar iscsvax uni edu klier iscsvax uni edu writes multiple drug resistance in tb is a relatively new phenomenon and one of the largest contributing factors is that people are no longer as scared of tb as they were before antibiotics it was roughly as feared as hiv is now not that new years ago we had drug addicts harboring active tb that was resistant to everything in chicago the difference now is that such strains have become virulent in the old days such tb was weak it didn t spread to other people very easily and just infected the one person in whom it developed because of non compliance with medications non compliance and development of resistant strains has been a problem for a very long time that is why we have like drugs against tb there is always a need to develop new ones due to such strains now however with a virulent resistant strain we are in more trouble and measures to assure compliance may be necessary even if they entail force gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re fungus epidemic in ca in article steward cup portal com john joseph deltuvia writes there was a story a few weeks ago on a network news show about some sort of fungus which supposedly attacks the bone structure and is somewhat widespread in california anybody hear anything about this one the only fungus i know of from california is coccidiomycosis i hadn t heard that it attacked bone it attacks lung and if you are especially unlucky the central nervous system nothing new about it it s been around for years they call it valley fever since it is found in the inland valleys not on the coast gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re travel outside us bangladesh in article p ciqinn th tamsun tamu edu covingc ee tamu edu just george writes i will be traveling to bangaldesh this summer and am wondering if there are any immunizations i should get before going you can probably get this information by calling your public health department in your county in pittsburgh they give the shots free as well there are bulletins in medical libraries that give recommendations or you could call the infectious diseases section of the medicine department of your local medical school you also will probably want to talk about malaria prophylaxis you will need your doctor to get the prescription gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re compartment syndrome general information references etc in article cfdd boeing com lry cfdd boeing com larry yeagley writes i have an acquaintance who has been diagnosed as having blood clots and compartment syndrome i searched the latest edition of the columbia medical encyclopedia and found nothing mosby s medical dictionary gives a very brief description which suggests it s an arterial condition can someone point me an compartment syndrome occurs when swelling happens in a compartment bounded by fascia the pressure rises in the compartment and blood supply and nerves are compromised the treatment is to open the compartment surgically the most common places for compartment syndromes are the forearm and calf it is an emergency since if the pressure is not relieved stuff will die gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re x rays in article mar leland stanford edu iceskate leland stanford edu lin writes first question how bad is x ray i ve heard that it s nothing compared to the amount of time spent under the sun and i ve also heard that it is very harmful second question is there anyway out of this yearly test for me the yearly chest x ray provides a minute amount of radiation it is a drop in the bucket as far as increased risk is concerned who can tell you whether you can get out of it or not no one here controls that it may well be a matter of the law in which case write your legislator but don t hold your breath gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re name of md s eyepiece in article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu gordon banks writes in article c ihm gs watson ibm com clarke watson ibm com ed clarke writes it s not an eyepiece it is called a head mirror all doctors never a speculum the speculum is the little cone that fits on the end of the otoscope there are also vaginal specula that females and gynecologists are all too familiar with in fairness we should note that if you look up speculum in the dictionary which i did when this question first surfaced the first definition is a mirror or polished metal plate used as a reflector in optical instruments which doesn t mean the name fits in this context but it s not as far off as you might think david wright hitachi computer products america inc waltham ma wright hicomb hi com these are my opinions not necessarily hitachi s though they are the opinions of all right thinking people
sci.med	mystery illness with spots i attended high school in the san jose california area in the early s and i remember a smallish outbreak of a strange illness in which people developed measles like spots on their bodies this condition seemed to last only a few days and i don t recall anyone reporting any other symptoms i seem to recall reading somewhere that this was believed to have been viral in nature but i don t know for sure however i have been curious since then about this anyone have any ideas about what this might have been
sci.med	re menangitis question in article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu gordon banks writes the neiseria meningococcus is one of the most common forms of meningitis it s the one that sometimes sweeps schools or boot camp it is contagious and kills by attacking the covering of the brain causing the blood vessels to thrombose and the brain to swell up it can live in the throat of carriers don t worry you won t get it from them especially if they took the medication assuming one has been cultured as having a throat laden with neiseria meningococcus and given and taken a course of eryc without the culture becoming negative should one worry about being a carrier elizabeth walkup cs washington edu
sci.med	re analgesics with diuretics on tue apr gmt dyer spdcc com steve dyer said in article ofk lve wb avukto andrew cmu edu lawrence curcio lc b andrew cmu edu writes i sometimes see otc preparations for muscle aches back aches that combine aspirin with a diuretic you certainly do not see otc preparations advertised as such the only such ridiculous concoctions are nostrums for premenstrual syndrome ostensibly to treat headache and bloating simultaneously they re worthless the idea seems to be to reduce inflammation by getting rid of fluid does this actually work that s not the idea and no they don t work i believe there is a known synergism between certain analgesics and caffiene for treating pain not inflammation now that i am an ibuprofen convert i haven t taken it for some time but excedrin really works grin nathan steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima harvard rayssd linus m c spdcc dyer bb nathan chemres tn cornell edu bbbbb p p
sci.med	re blindsight in article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu gordon banks writes in article werner tol mac soe berkeley edu werner soe berkeley edu john werner writes in article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu gordon banks wrote explain i thought there were types of cones equivalent to rgb you re basically right but i think there are just types one is sensitive to red and green and the other is sensitive to blue and yellow this is why the two most common kinds of color blindness are red green and blue yellow yes i remember that now well in that case the cones are indeed color sensitive contrary to what the original respondent had claimed i m not sure who the original respondent was but to reiterate cones respond to particular portions of the spectrum just as rods respond to certain parts of the visible spectrum bluegreen in our case reddish in certain amphibia just as the hoseshoe crab limulus polyphemus photoreceptors respond to a certain portion of the spectrum etc it is a common misconception to confound wavelength specificity with being color sensitive however the two are not synonymous so in sum and to beat a dead horse when the outputs of a cone are matched for number of absorbed photons irrespective of the absorbed photons wavelength the cone outputs are indistinguishable cones are simply detectors with different spectral sensitivities and are not any more color sensitive than are rods ommatidia or other photoreceptors color vision arises because outputs of receptors which sample different parts of the spectrum cones in this case are processed centrally the handwave is intentional i ve worked and published research on rods and cones for over years so the adherence to the belief that cones can detect color is frustrating but don t take my word for it i m reposting a few excellent articles together with two rather good but oldish color vision texts the texts robert boynton human color vision holt rhiehart and winston leo m hurvich color vision sinauer associates the original articles baylor and hodgkin detection and resolution of visual stimuli by turtle phoreceptors j physiol pp baylor lamb and yau reponses of retinal rods to single photons j physiol pp schnapf et al visual transduction in cones of the monkey macaca fascicularis j physiol pp edwin barkdoll barkdoll lepomis psych upenn edu eb world std com edwin barkdoll eb world std com
sci.med	re donating organs in article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu gordon banks writes in article mar sbcs sunysb edu mhollowa ic sunysb edu michael holloway writes there been anything recent in transplant proceedings or somesuch on xenografts how about liver section transplants from living donors i m sure the pittsburgh group has published the baboon work but i don t know where in chicago they were doing lobe transplants from living donors and i m sure they ve published the case report of the first xenotransplant was published in lancet i can send you a reprint if you are interested there was another paper sort of a tour of the horizon written by starzl and published in the resident s edition of the annals of surgery vol october it s in the surgical resident s newsletter section so you won t find it in the regular issue of the annals i don t have any reprints of that one a paper has been accepted for publication by immunology today though i m not sure when it s coming out describing our experience with the two xenografts done to date as for segmental liver transplants from living related donors i must confess to a total ignorance of that literature we are philosophically opposed to those and i don t keep up with that particular field howard doyle doyle pitt edu
sci.med	natural anti cancer aids remedies the biggest reason why the cost of medical care is so extremely high and increasing is that natural methods of treatment and even diagnosis are still being systematically ignored and suppressed by the money grubbing and power mongering medical establishment some examples of very low cost natural anti cancer remedies are listed in the following article natural anti cancer remedies a rd opinion some of these remedies also work against aids disclaimer this list was compiled from unorthodox sources that have shown themselves to be reliable the compiler of this list is not a doctor of any kind but is exercising his first amendment constitutional right of free speech on the subjects of his choice most of these remedies can be found in any grocery store most of the rest of them can be found in any health food store what is important is how they are used and what else is excluded during their use the day fast st day eat as much fresh fruit as you want one kind at a time preferably grapes nd day eat all the vegetables you want at least half raw including garlic also whole kernel corn to help scrape clean the intestinal linings rd day drink all the fresh fruit and vegetable juice you want preferably start with to ounces of prune juice with pulp followed by a gallon of pure not from concentrate apple juice then grape juice stay close to your home bathroom th day eat all the un salted nuts no peanuts and dried fruit you want preferably raisins and almonds almonds contain laetrile th day one gallon of lemonade squeeze the juice from two lemons into a gallon of water preferably distilled and add to tablespoons of locally made honey no sugar drink one glass per hour everyone including healthy people should do this one day every week preceded by a large glass of prune juice with pulp th day same as th day th day same as th day all days eat only the foods listed above for each day along with your usual vitamin and mineral supplements plus as much distilled water as you want the grape diet eat to ounces of fresh grapes every hours am to pm every day for six days eat nothing else during the six days but drink as much distilled water as you want apple cider vinegar mix a teaspoon of pure apple cider vinegar not apple cider flavored vinegar regular vinegar is harmful in a glass of water preferably distilled and drink all of it do this or times per day for weeks then stop for a week repeat if desired do this along with a normal healthy diet of natural foods this remedy is especially effective against those types of cancer that resemble a fungus as well as against other kinds of fungus infections the sea salt soda bath please keep an open mind fill a bathtub with moderately warm water so the level comes up almost to the overflow drain when you get in immerse yourself in it for a minute and then completely dissolve in the bath water pound of sun evaporated sea salt regular salt won t work and pound of fresh baking soda soak in this bath for to minutes while exercising your fingers toes and limbs turning sideways and onto your stomach dunking your head sitting up and laying back down chomping your teeth together etc among other things the sea salt soda bath neutralizes the accumulated effects of x rays etc as described in the book born to be magnetic vol by frances nixon precautions only the one person using each bath should prepare it and drain it for at least minutes after taking the bath stay away from and even out of sight of other people your greatly expanded aura energy field during that time could disrupt other people s fields two hours after the bath eat at least ounces of yogurt containing active yogurt cultures the bath may kill friendly bacteria also better yet take a billion bacteria acidophilus capsule which is also an excellent daily remedy against the effects of a i d s because it kills all kinds of harmful bacteria in the digestive tract taking a big load off the remaining immune system because this external bath can kill in ternal bacteria it may also be a cure for lyme disease do not take this bath within a few hundred miles of a thunder storm within days of a full moon nor during major or minor periods as listed in the solunar tables published bimonthly in field stream magazine because of the measurable disruptive ambient environmental energy fields present at those times do not take this bath more than four times per year miscellaneous natural anti cancer remedies for skin cancer apply stabilized aloe vera jel to the affected skin twice daily and take to tablespoons per day of stabilized aloe vera juice internally for about months d m s o dimethyl sulfoxide causes cancer cells to perform normal cell functions almonds un blanched un roasted contain laetrile to help prevent cancer eat several almonds every day to help cure cancer eat several ounces of almonds per day never take large concentrated doses of laetrile orally it will kill you take it intravenously only cancer cells contain a certain enzyme which converts laetrile into cyanide which then kills the cell this enzyme is also present in the digestive system anti oxidants are free radical scavengers and include vitamin e selenium mcg per day is safe for most people chromium up to mcg per day vitamin a iu per day is safe for most people superoxide dismutase up to units per day vitamin c up to mg per day and bht butylated hydroxy toluene to capsules of bht every night at bedtime will also make one immune against herpes both types suppress herpes symptoms if one already has herpes prevent spreading herpes to other people but will not cure herpes bht might also do these things against a i d s which is really a form of cancer similar to leukemia see the book life extension by durk pearson and sandy shaw hydrogen peroxide dilute twelve drops of hydrogen peroxide in a glass of pure water preferably distilled and drink it do this once or twice per day hours before or after eating or drinking anything else apply hydrogen peroxide directly to skin cancers several times per day use hydrogen peroxide only if you are taking a good daily dose of some of the various anti oxidants described above vitamin mineral supplements are more effective and much less expensive when combined together in mega doses into single tablets made from natural sources cancer cells can not live in a strong maxwell north magnetic field especially if it is pulsating on and off a strong south magnetic field is an aphrodisiac in my opinion all types of ionizing radiation treatments for cancer should be replaced with daily minute doses of pulsating maxwell north magnetic fields properly made and operated radionics psionics machines can both diagnose and cure all forms of cancer as well as most other medical problems some radionics psionics machines can even take cross sectional x ray like photos of cancer tumors etc with out x rays interferon tablets taheebo tea lapacho homeopathy can cure cancer and many other medical problems even drug addiction mg per day of chelated zinc can help prevent or cure prostate trouble this list is not exhaustive the above natural remedies can cure both diagnosed and un diagnosed cancers as well as prevent them and also prevent and cure many other medical problems including heart diseases they are not too simple and inexpensive to work effectively besides acting on a person biologically and chemically these remedies especially the day fast and the grape diet send a strong message to one s subconscious mind programming it to cure the cancer in my opinion if a person finds out that s he has cancer then s he should promptly try at least the first remedies described above in sequence starting with the day fast before resorting to the un natural and expensive mutilations and agonies poison burn and mutilate of orthodox cancer treatment organi ed crime disclaimer this list was compiled from unorthodox sources that have shown themselves to be reliable the compiler of this list is not a doctor of any kind but is exercising his first amendment constitutional right of free speech on the subjects of his choice for more information contact cancer control society n berendo st los angeles ca and or other organiza tions listed in the alternative medicine and holistic medicine portions of the health and medical organizations section section of the latest edition of the encyclope dia of associations reference book in your local public or university library un altered reproduction and dissemination of this important information is encouraged robert e mcelwaine
sci.med	re fungus epidemic in ca in article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu gordon banks writes in article steward cup portal com john joseph deltuvia writes there was a story a few weeks ago on a network news show about some sort of fungus which supposedly attacks the bone structure and is somewhat widespread in california anybody hear anything about this one the only fungus i know of from california is coccidiomycosis i hadn t heard that it attacked bone it attacks lung and if you are especially unlucky the central nervous system nothing new about it it s been around for years they call it valley fever since it is found in the inland valleys not on the coast there is a mini epidemic of coccidiodes that is occurring in i believe the owen s valley bishop area east of the sierras i don t believe there has been any great insight into the increased incidence in that area there is a low level of endemic infection in that region many people with evidence of past exposure to the organism did not have serious disease brian
sci.med	xanax please provide info i am currently doing a group research project on the drug xanax i would be exponentially gracious to receive any and all information you could provide me regarding its usage history mechanism of reaction side effects and other pertinent information i don t care how long or how short your response is thanks in advance brent e shelley
sci.med	re morbus meniere is there a real remedy in article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu gordon banks writes in article lindaec jglk fxm netcom com lindae netcom com writes my biggest resentment is the doctor who makes it seem like most people with dizziness can be cured that s definitely not the case in most cases like i said above it is a long tedious process that may or may not end up in a partial cure be sure to say chronic dizziness not just dizziness most patients with acute or subacute dizziness will get better the vertiginous spells of meniere s will also eventually go away however the patient is left with a deaf ear all true and all good points to anyone suffering with vertigo dizziness or any variation thereof my best advice to you as a fellow sufferer is this just keep searching don t let the doctors tell you there s nothing that can be done do your own research and let your this may have helped you but i m not sure it is good general advice the odds that you are going to find some miracle with your own research that is secret or hidden from general knowledge for this or any other disease are slim when good answers to these then spending a great deal of time and energy on the medical problem may divert that energy from more productive things in life a limited amount should be spent to assure yourself that your doctor gave you the correct story but after it becomes clear that you are dealing with a problem for which medicine has no good solution perhaps the best strategy is to join the support group and keep abreast of new findings but not to make a career out of it well making a career out of it is a bit strong i still believe that doing your own research is very very necessary i would not have progressed as much as i have today unless i had spent the many hours in stanford s med library as i have done and years ago it was clear that there was no medicine that would help me so should i have stopped searching thank goodness i didn t now i found that there is indeed medicine that helps me i think that what you ve said is kind of idealistic that you would go to one doctor get a diagnosis maybe get a second opinion and then move on with your life just as an example having seen of the top specialists in this field in the country i have received different diagnoses these are the top names the ones that people come to from all over the country i have had to sort all of this out myself going to a support group and in fact heading that support group was helpful for a while but after a point i found it very unproductive it was much more productive to do library research make phone calls and put together the pieces of the puzzle myself a recent movie lorenzo s oil offers a perfect example of what i m talking about if you haven t seen it you should it s not a put down of doctor s and neither is what i m saying doctors are only human and can only do so much but there are those of us out here who are intelligent and able to sometimes find a missing piece of the puzzle that might have otherwise gone unnoticed i guess i m biased because dizziness is one of those weird things that is still so unknown if i had a broken arm or a weak heart or failing kidneys i might not have the same opinion that s because those things are much more tangible and have much more concise definitions and treatments with dizziness you just have to decide to live with it or decide to live with it while trying to find your way out of it i have chosen the latter linda lindae netcom netcom com gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	faq typing injuries keyboard alternatives monthly posting archive name typing injury faq keyboards version revision date answers to frequently asked questions about keyboard alternatives the alternative keyboard faq copyright by dan wallach dwallach cs berkeley edu the opinions in here are my own unless otherwise mentioned and do not represent the opinions of any organization or vendor current distribution sci med occupational sci med comp human factors news sci comp answers and e mail to c health iubvm ucs indiana edu sorehand vm ucsf edu and cstg l vtvm cc vt edu changes since previously distributed versions are marked with change bars to the right of the text as is this paragraph information in this faq has been pieced together from phone conversations e mail and product literature while i hope it s useful the information in here is neither comprehensive nor error free if you find something wrong or missing please mail me and i ll update my list thanks all phone numbers unless otherwise mentioned are u s a phone numbers all monetary figures unless otherwise mentioned are u s a dollars products covered in this faq using a pc s keyboard on your workstation compatibility issues apple computer inc key tronic flexpro dragon systems the bat datahand comfort keyboard system kinesis ergonomic keyboard maltron the tony ergonomic keysystem the vertical the mikey the wave the minimal motion computer access system twiddler half qwerty microwriter braille n speak octima accukey gif pictures of many of these products are available via anonymous ftp from soda berkeley edu pub typing injury i highly recommend getting the pictures they tell much more than i can fit into this file if you can t ftp send me mail and i ll uuencode and mail them to you they re pretty big using a pc s keyboard on your workstation compatibility issues mini outline spoofing a keyboard over the serial port x terminals next silicon graphics ibm rs other stuff spoofing a keyboard over the serial port if you ve got a proprietary computer which uses its own keyboard sun hp dec etc then you re going to have a hard time finding a vendor to sell you a compatible keyboard if your workstation runs the x window system you re in luck you can buy a cheap used pc hook your expensive keyboard up to it and run a serial cable to your workstation then run a program on the workstation to read the serial port and generate fake x keyboard events the two main programs i ve found to do this are kt and a x a x is a sophisticated program capable of controlling the mouse and even moving among widgets on the screen it requires a server extension xtest dec xtrap or xtestextension to find out if your server can do this run xdpyinfo and see if any of these strings appear in the extensions list if your server doesn t have this you may want to investigate compiling x r patchlevel or later or bugging your vendor kt is a simpler program which should work with unextended x servers another program called xsendevent also exists but i haven t seen it both a x and kt are available via anonymous ftp from soda berkeley edu x terminals also a number of x terminals ncd tektronics to name a few use pc compatible keyboards if you have an x terminal you may be all set try it out with a normal pc keyboard before you go through the trouble of buying an alternative keyboard also some x terminals add extra buttons you may need to keep your original keyboard around for the once in a blue moon that you have to hit the setup key next next had announced that new next machines will use the apple desktop bus meaning any mac keyboard will work then they announced they were cancelling their hardware production if you want any kind of upgrade for an older next do it now silicon graphics silicon graphics has announced that their newer machines indigo and beyond will use standard pc compatible keyboards and mice i don t believe this also applies to the power series machines it s not possible to upgrade an older sgi to use pc keyboards except by upgrading the entire machine contact your sgi sales rep for more details ibm rs ibm rs keyboards are actually similar to normal pc keyboards unfortunately you can t just plug one in you need two things a cable converter to go from the large pc keyboard connector to the smaller ps style din and a new device driver for aix believe it or not ibm wrote this device driver recently i used it and it works however they don t want me to redistribute it i ve been told judy hume is a potential contact if you learn anything new please send me e mail other stuff some vendors here notably health care keyboard co and accucorp support some odd keyboard types and may be responsive to your queries regarding supporting your own weird computer if you can get sufficient documention about how your keyboard works either from the vendor or with a storage oscilloscope you may be in luck contact the companies for more details apple adjustable keyboard apple computer inc sales offices all over the place availability february price supports mac only apple has recently announced their new split design keyboard the keyboard has one section for each hand and the sections rotate backward on a hinge the sections do not tilt upward the keys are arranged in a normal qwerty fashion the main foldable keyboard resembles a normal apple keyboard a separate keypad contains all the extended key functions the keyboard also comes with matching wrist rests which are not directly attachable to the keyboard as soon as soda comes back up i ll have a detailed blurb from tidbits available there flexpro keyboard key tronic phone possible contact denise razzeto sold by many clone vendors and pc shops availability spring price supports pc only highly likely keytronic apparently showed a prototype keyboard at comdex it s another split design one thumb wheel controls the tilt of both the left and right hand sides of the main alphanumeric section the arrow keys and keypad resemble a normal key pc keyboard keytronic makes standard pc keyboards also so this product will probably be sold through their standard distribution channels dragondictate k and numerous other dragon products dragon systems inc nevada street newton ma phone talk typ or fax shipping now price dragondictate k end user system dragonwriter end user developer system various other prices for service contracts site licenses etc compatibility or higher pc only rd party support for mac free software support for x windows is also available your pc with dragon hardware talks to your workstation over a serial cable or network the program is called a x and is available via anonymous ftp soda berkeley edu pub typing injury a x tar z export lcs mit edu contrib a x tar z most current if you want to use your dragon product with x windows you may want to ask for peter cohen an salesman at dragon who knows more about this sort of thing dragon systems sells a number of voice recognition products most if not all of them seem to run on pc s and compatibles including ps s and other microchannel boxes they sell you a hardware board and software which sits in front of a number of popular word processors and spreadsheets each user trains the system to their voice and there are provisions to correct the system when it makes mistakes on the fly multiple people can use it but you have to load a different personality file for each person you still get the use of your normal keyboard too on the dragondictate k you need to pause th sec between words dragon claims typical input speeds of words per minute i don t have specs on the dragonwriter the dragondictate k can recognize words at a time the dragonwriter can recognize you guessed it words at a time dragon s technology is also part of the following products about which i have no other info microsoft windows sound system voice pilot ibm voicetype voice navigator ii by articulate systems for macintosh emstation by lanier voice products emergency medical workstation the bat old phone number current phone number infogrip inc north blvd baton rouge louisiana u s a ward bond main contact david vicknair did the unix software shipping now supports mac ibm pc serial port native keyboard port version coming very soon no other workstations supported but serial support for unix with x windows has been written pc and mac are getting all the real attention from the company a chording system one hand is sufficient to type everything the second hand is for redundancy and increased speed price dual set each one is a complete keyboard by itself single cheaper prices were offered at macworld expo as a show special datahand industrial innovations inc north th street scottsdale arizona u s a mark roggenbuck contact supports pc and mac shipping in beta big backlog could take months price unit unit pods new price each hand has its own pod each of the four main fingers has five switches each forward back left right and down the thumbs have a number of switches despite appearances the key layout resembles qwerty and is reported to be no big deal to adapt to the idea is that your hands never have to move to use the keyboard the whole pod tilts in its base to act as a mouse see also the detailed review written by cliff lasser cal think com available via anonymous ftp from soda berkeley edu comfort keyboard system fax health care keyboard company n w appleton ave menomonee falls wisconsin u s a jeffrey szmanda vice president contact shipping now supports pc and mac planned future support ibm key layout style i believe sun sparc decision data unisys uts silicon graphics others to be supported later the hardware design is relatively easy for the company to re configure price including one system personality module the idea is that one keyboard works with everything you purchase compatibility modules a new cord and possibly new keycaps and then you can move your one keyboard around among different machines it s a three piece folding keyboard the layout resembles the standard key keyboard except sliced into three sections each section is on a custom telescoping universal mount each section independently adjusts to an infinite number of positions allowing each individual to type in a natural posture you can rearrange the three sections too have the keypad in the middle if you want each section is otherwise normal shaped i e you put all three sections flat and you have what looks like a normal key keyboard kinesis ergonomic keyboard fax kinesis corporation pacific highway south seattle washington u s a shirley lunde vp marketing contact shipping now supports pc mac and sun sparc in the works price volume discounts available the includes one foot pedal one set of adhesive wrist pads and a typingtutor program an additional foot pedal and other accessories are extra the layout has a large blank space in the middle even though the keyboard is about the size of a normal pc keyboard slightly smaller each hand has its own set of keys laid out to minimize finger travel thumb buttons handle many major functions enter backspace etc you can remap the keyboard in firmware very nice when software won t allow the reconfig foot pedals are also available and can be mapped to any key on the keyboard shift control whatever maltron united kingdom p c d maltron limited orchard lane east molesey surrey kt obn england pamela and stephen hobday contacts u s distributor jim barrett applied learning corp glen hardie road wayne pa phone supports pc s amstrad bbc b bbc master mac apparently now also available price pounds shipped in the u s a basically converted price shipping the cost is less for bbc computers and they have a number of accessories including carrying cases switch boxes to use both your normal keyboard and the maltron an articulated arm that clamps on to your table and training courses to help you learn to type on your maltron you can also rent a keyboard for pounds week taxes u s price month and then off purchase if you want it shipping now in your choice of colors black or grey maltron has four main products a two handed keyboard two one handed keyboards and a keyboard designed for handicapped people to control with a mouth stick the layout allocates more buttons to the thumbs and is curved to bring keys closer to the fingers a separate keypad is in the middle accukey accucorp inc p o box christiansburg va u s a pete rosenquist sales larry langley president shipping now supports pc mac ibm sun sparc and televideo and cost shipping doesn t use conventional push keys soft rubber keys which rock forward and backward each key has three states make chords for typing keys learning time is estimated to be hours for getting started and maybe two weeks to get used to it currently the thumbs don t do anything although a thumb trackball is in the works the company claims it takes about a week of work to support a new computer they will be happy to adapt their keyboard to your computer if possible twiddler or handykey mt sinai ave mt sinai ny chris george president shipping now price supports pc only mac and x windows in the works the twiddler is both a keyboard and a mouse and it fits in one hand you type via finger chords shift control etc are thumb buttons when in mouse mode tilting the twiddler moves the mouse and mouse buttons are on your fingers the cabling leaves your normal keyboard available also most applications work and windows works fine desqview has trouble geoworks also has trouble mouse works keyboard doesn t braille n speak blazie engineering mill green rd street md u s a information provided by doug martin martin nosc mil the braille n speak uses any of several braille codes for entering information grade i grade ii or computer braille basically letters a j are combinations of dots and letters k t are the same combinations as a j with dot added letters u v x y and z are like a e with dots and added w is unique because louis braille didn t have a w in the french alphabet the tony ergonomic keysystem tony hodges the tony corporation thompson court mountain view ca u s a supports mac pc ibm sun and dec shipping price you commit now and then you re in line to buy the keyboard when it ships if it s cheaper you pay the cheaper price if it s more expensive you still pay the tony should allow separate positioning of every key to allow the keyboard to be personally customized a thumb operated mouse will also be available the vertical contact jeffrey spencer or stephen albert p o box la jolla ca u s a supports no info available probably pc s available summer price the vertical keyboard is split in two halves each pointing straight up the user can adjust the width of the device but not the tilt of each section side view mirrors are installed to allow users to see their fingers on the keys the mikey dr alan grant woodhollow drive chevy chase maryland u s a shipping as of july should be available in one year supports pc mac maybe price estimated the keyboard is at a fixed angle and incorporates a built in mouse operated by the thumbs function keys are arranged in a circle at the keyboard s left the wave was fax iocomm international technology yukon avenue hawthorne california u s a robin hunter contact in sales cost for a set of cables supports pc only shipping now iocomm also manufactures ordinary key keyboard pc at and key keyboard pc xt so make sure you get the right one the one piece keyboard has a built in wrist rest it looks exactly like a normal key pc keyboard with two inches of built in wrist rest the key switch feel is reported to be greatly improved the minimal motion computer access system fax equal access computer technology dr michael weinreigh oneida rd acton ma u s a price infogrip compatible a few hundred dollars a one handed bat for their own system dos software a few hundred dollars shipping these are custom made so an occupational therapist would make moulds do whatever to make it for you you can buy one now supports pc only although the infogrip compatible version might work with a mac in a one handed version there is exactly one button per finger in a two handed version you get four buttons per finger and the thumbs don t do anything you can also get one handed versions with three thumb buttons compatible with the infogrip bat basically get it any way you want they also have a software tutorial to help you learn the chording works on a pc under dos not windows planning on macintosh and pc windows support no work has been done on a unix version yet half qwerty canada the matias corporation thistledown boulevard rexdale ontario canada m v k e mail ematias dgp toronto edu supports mac and pc but not windows demo for anonymous ftp explorer dgp toronto edu pub half qwerty price higher in canada quantity discounts available shipping now this thing is purely software no hardware at all the software will mirror the keyboard when you hold down the space bar allowing you type one handed octima israel fax ergoplic keyboards ltd p o box kiryat ono israel info from mandy jaffe katz rxhfun haifauvm bitnet a one handed keyboard microwriter agenda u k fax microwriter systems plc m s a house albany court albany park frimley surrey gu xa united kingdom info from carroll morgan carroll morgan prg oxford ac uk the agenda is a personal desktop assistant pda style machine you can carry it along with you it has chording input you can also hook it up to your pc or even program it it costs just under pounds with k memory thanks go to chris bekins as ccb forsythe stanford edu for providing the basis for this information thanks to the numerous contributors doug martin martin nosc mil carroll morgan carroll morgan prg oxford ac uk mandy jaffe katz rxhfun haifauvm bitnet wes hunter wesley hunter atlantaga ncr com paul schwartz pschwrtz cs washington edu h j woltring woltring nici kun nl dan sorenson viking iastate edu chris vanharen vanharen mit edu ravi pandya ravi xanadu com leonard h tower jr tower ai mit edu dan jacobson dan jacobson att com jim cheetham jim oasis icl co uk cliff lasser cal think com richard donkin richardd hoskyns co uk paul rubin phr napa telebit com david erb erb fullfeed com bob scheifler rws expo lcs mit edu chris grant chris grant um cc umich edu scott mandell sem postoffice mail cornell edu and everybody else who i ve probably managed to forget the opinions in here are my own unless otherwise mentioned and do not represent the opinions of any organization or vendor dan wallach one of the most attractive features of a connection dwallach cs berkeley edu machine is the array of blinking lights on the faces office of its cabinet cm paris ref manual v p
sci.med	faq typing injuries software monitoring tools monthly posting archive name typing injury faq software version th december this faq is actually maintained by richard donkin richardd hoskyns co uk i post it along with the other faq stuff if you have questions you want to send mail to richard not me dan software tools to help with rsi this file describes tools primarily software to help prevent or manage rsi this version now includes information on such diverse tools as calendar programs and digital watches please let me know if you know any other tools or if you have information or opinions on these ones and i will update this faq i am especially interested in getting reviews of these products from people who have evaluated them or are using them richard donkin internet mail richardd hoskyns co uk tel direct fax changes in this version added information on stressfree another typing management tool for windows typing management tools these aim to help you manage your keyboard use by warning you to take a break every so often the better ones also include advice on exercises posture and workstation setup some use sound hardware to warn of a break others use beeps or screen messages often rsi appears only after many years of typing and the pain has a delayed action in the short term too frequently you can be typing all day with little problem and the pain gets worse in the evening these tools act as an early warning system by listening to their warnings and taking breaks with exercises you don t have to wait for your body to give you a more serious and painful warning that is getting rsi tool at your service commercial software available from bright star tel platforms mac system windows description provides calendar keyboard watch email watch and system info warns when to take a break configurable has a few recommendations on posture and exercises sound oriented will probably work best with sound card pc or with microphone mac should be possible to record your own messages to warn of break tool audioport sound card and software available from media vision tel platforms pc description a sound card to plug into your pc parallel port includes at your service tool computer health break commercial software available from escape ergonomics inc w el camino real suite mailstop sunnyvale ca tel platforms dos description aimed at preventing rsi this program warns you to take breaks after a configurable interval based on clock time or after a set number of keystrokes whichever is earlier it gives you exercises to do each time randomly selected from a set of exercises are apparently tuned to the type of work you do data entry word processing information processing exercises are illustrated and include quite a lot of text on how to do the exercise and on what exactly the exercise does chb includes hypertext information on rsi that you can use to learn more about rsi and how to prevent it other information on non rsi topics can be plugged into this hypertext viewer a full glossary of medical terms and jargon is included chb can be run in a dos box under windows but does not then warn you when to take a break it does not therefore appear useful when used with windows cost quantity discounts site licenses comments the keystroke counting approach looks good it seems better to measure the activity that is causing you problems than to measure clock time or even typing time the marketing stuff is very good and includes some summaries of research papers as well as lots of arguments you can use to get your company to pay up for rsi management tools tool eyercise commercial software available from ran enterprises one woodland park dr haverhill ma us tel us only platforms windows os pm not dos description aimed at preventing rsi and eye strain this program warns you to take breaks after a configurable interval or at fixed times optionally displays descriptions and pictures of exercises pictures are animated and program beeps you to help you do exercises at the correct rate includes stretches and visual training exercises can configure which are included and how many repetitions you do breaks last from to minutes also includes online help on workplace ergonomics quote from their literature eyercise is a windows program that breaks up your day with periodic sets of stretches and visual training exercises the stretches work all parts of your body relieving tension and helping to prevent repetitive strain injury the visual training exercises will improve your peripheral vision and help to relieve eye strain together these help you to become more relaxed and productive the package includes the book computers visual stress by edward c godnig o d and john s hacunda which describes the ergonomic setup for a computer workstation and provides procedures and exercises to promote healthy and efficient computer use cost including shipping and handling quantity discounts for resellers free demo outside us comments i have a copy of this and it works as advertised i would say it is better for rsi prevention than rsi management because it does not allow breaks at periods less than minutes also it interrupts you based on clock time rather than typing time which is not so helpful unless you use the keyboard all day worked ok on windows though it did occasionally crash with a uae not sure why also refused to work with the space bar on one pc and has one window without window controls very usable though and does not require any sound hardware tool lifeguard commercial software available from visionary software p o box portland or us tel platforms mac dos windows version underway description aimed at preventing rsi warns you to take a break with dialog box and sound includes a list of exercises to do during breaks and information on configuring your workstation in an ergonomic manner price quantity discounts and site licenses the dos product is bought in from another company apparently not sure how equivalent this is to the mac version the mac version got a good review in desktop publisher magazine feb good marketing stuff with useful page summaries of rsi problems and solutions with references tool stressfree commercial software free usable demo available from lifetime software p o box houston texas us tel us only fax mail compuserve com demo working program but reduced functions available from compuserve windows advanced forum new uploads section or health and fitness forum issues at work section anon ftp ftp cica indiana edu and mirroring sites platforms windows mac and dos versions underway description aimed at preventing rsi this program warns you to take breaks after a configurable interval or at fixed times displays descriptions and pictures of exercises pictures are animated and program paces you to help you do exercises at the correct rate quite a few exercises can configure which ones are included to some extent online help version is out soon mac and dos versions will be based on this cost if support via compuserve or internet otherwise site license for or more copies is each note prices may have gone up for v comments i have had a play with this and it works ok its user interface design is much better in though still a bit unusual expensive tool around and it does the job it is also the only tool with a redistributable demo so if you do get the demo post it on your local bulletin boards ftp servers and bitnet servers does not include general info on rsi and ergonomics but it does have the ability to step backward in the exercise sequence which is good for repeating the most helpful exercises tool typewatch freeware version october available from email to richardd hoskyns co uk anonymous ftp soda berkeley edu pub typing injury typewatch shar platforms unix tested on sco sunos mach character and x window mode description this is a shell script that runs in the background and warns you to stop typing based on how long you have been continuously typing it does not provide exercises but it does check that you really do take a break and tells you when you can start typing again typewatch now tells you how many minutes you have been typing today each time it warns you which is useful so you know how much you really type it also logs information to a file that you can analyse or simply print out the warning message appears on your screen in character mode in a pop up window for x windows or as a zephyr message for those with athena stuff tim freeman tsf cs cmu edu has put in a lot of bug fixes extra features and support for x zephyr and mach not formally supported but email richardd hoskyns co uk for sco sunos character mode or tsf cs cmu edu for mach x window mode zephyr if you have problems or want to give feedback tool various calendar batch queue programs available from various sources platforms various description any calendar reminder program that warns you of an upcoming appointment can be turned into an ad hoc rsi management tool or any batch queue submission program that lets you submit a program to run at a specific time to display a message to the screen using windows as an example create a calendar file and include this filename in your win ini s load line so you get it on every startup of windows suppose you want to have breaks every minutes starting from am press f special time to enter an appointment enter hit enter and type some text in saying what the break is for then press f to set an alarm on this entry and repeat for the next appointment by using windows recorder you can record the keystrokes that set up breaks throughout a day in a rec file put this file on your run line as above and you will then with a single keypress be able to set up your daily appointments with rsi exercises the above method should be adaptable to most calendar programs an example using batch jobs would be to submit a simple job that runs at am and warns you to take a break this will depend a lot on your operating system while these approaches are not ideal they are a good way of forcing yourself to take a break if you can t get hold of a suitable rsi management tool if you are techie enough you might want to write a version of typewatch see above for your operating system using batch jobs or whatever fits best tool digital watches with count down timers available from various sources e g casio bp description many digital watches have timers that count down from a settable number of minutes they usually reset easily to that number either manually or automatically while these are a very basic tool they are very useful if you are writing reading driving or doing anything away from a computer which can still cause or aggravate rsi the great advantage is that they remind you to break from whatever you are doing comments my own experience was that cutting down a lot on my typing led to my writing a lot more and still reading as much as ever which actually aggravated the rsi in my right arm though the left arm improved getting a count down timer watch has been very useful on some occasions where i write a lot in a day i have tried an old fashioned hour glass type egg timer but these are not much good because they do not give an audible warning of the end of the time period keyboard remapping tools these enable you to change your keyboard mapping so you can type one handedly or with a different two handed layout one handed typing tools may help but be very careful about how you use them if you keep the same overall typing workload you are simply doubling your hand use for the hand that you use for typing and may therefore make matters worse tool hsh public domain available from anonymous ftp soda berkeley edu pub typing injury hsh shar platforms unix don t know which ones description allows one handed typing and other general keyboard remappings only works through tty s so you can use it with a terminal or an xterm but not most x programs tool dvorak keyboard tools various available from anonymous ftp soda berkeley edu pub typing injury xdvorak c also built into windows x description the dvorak keyboard apparently uses a more rational layout that involves more balanced hand use it may help prevent rsi a bit but you can also use it if you have rsi since it will slow down your typing a lot dan wallach one of the most attractive features of a connection dwallach cs berkeley edu machine is the array of blinking lights on the faces office of its cabinet cm paris ref manual v p
sci.med	re science and methodology was homeopathy tradition in article lsj gninnl c saltillo cs utexas edu turpin cs utexas edu russell turpin writes i wrote or to use a phrasing that i think is more accurate science is the investigation of phenomena that avoids methods and reasoning that are known to be erroneous from past foul ups in article c iu hbn bunyip cc uq oz au bd psych psy uq oz au writes i can agree with this if you are talking about the less fundamental aspects of scientific method in fact i don t see the alternative as i don t think that the fundamentals are capable of experimental investigation in saying this i am agreeing with the work of people like kuhn feyerabend and lakatos while methodology cannot be subject to the same kind of experimental investigation as that to which it is applied it can be critically appraised methodologies can be compared to each other sometimes by the conflicting results they produce this kind of critical appraisal and comparison together with the inappropriateness of existing methodologies for new fields of study is what drives the evolution of methodologies and how we think about them as usual you are missing the whole point russell because you are not willing to even consider questionning your basic article of faith which is that science is merely a matter of methodology and that the highest purpose of science is to avoid making mistakes this is like saying that the most important aspect of business management is accurate bookkeeping if science were no more than methodology and not making mistakes it would be a poor thing indeed what was the methodology of darwin what was the methodology of einstein what was for that matter the methodology of jenner and pasteur in an earlier article russell turpin writes none of the foregoing should be read as meaning that we should open the door to practitioners of quackery and psuedo science modern advocates of homeopathy chiropracty and traditional chinese medicine receive little respect because for the most part they use methods and reasoning that the kind of research lee lady recommends has shown to be terribly faulty this does not imply that all their treatments are ineffective it does imply that those who rely on faulty methodology and reasoning are incapable of discovering which treatments are effective and which are not first of all i think you are arguing against a straw man because i don t think that anyone here is arguing that quackery pseudo science homeopathy chiropracty and traditional chinese medicine should be accepted as science i in particular think the basic ideas of homeopathy and chiropracty seem extremely flaky what some of us do believe however is that some of these things including some of the flaky ideas are deserving of serious scientific attention if in fact it were true as you have stated above that those who do not use the currently fashionable methodology can have no idea what is effective and what is not then science today would not exist for all of current science is based on the past work of scientists whose methodology by current standards was seriously flawed it is certainly true that as methodology improves we need to re examine those results derived in the past using less perfect methodologies it is also true that the results obtained by people today who still rely on those early methodologies needs to be re examined in a more rigorous fashion by those qualified to do so credibly but to say that nobody who fails to do elaborate double blind studies is capable of knowing their ass from a hole in the ground and to say that no ideas that come from outside the scientific establishment could possibly be worthy of serious investigation this truly marks one s attitude as doctrinaire cultist this attitude is not compatible with a belief in reason in the arguments between behaviorists and cognitivists psychology seems less like a science than a collection of competing religious sects lady uhunix uhcc hawaii edu lady uhunix bitnet
sci.med	faq typing injuries changes since last month monthly posting archive name typing injury faq changes version revision date this file details changes to the soda berkeley edu archive and summarizes what s new in the various faq frequently asked questions documents this will be posted monthly along with the full faq to the various net groups the various mailing lists will either receive the full faq every month or every third month but will always get this file once per month phew changes to the typing injuries faq and soda berkeley edu archive this month a few new files on the soda berkeley edu archive the tidbits caring for your wrists document rsi network advice about adverse mechanical tension more details about the new apple keyboard more info about carpal tunnel syndrome carpal explained more general info about rsi rsi details rsi physical marketing info on the vertical macweek article the bat new details on hooking a normal pc keyboard to an rs updated pricing info on the datahand and comfort half qwerty now available for anonymous ftp on explorer dgp toronto edu new gif picutures the apple adjustable keyboard the key tronic flexpro another picture of the kinesis the vertical the tony if you d like to receive a copy of the faq and you didn t find it in the same place you found this document you can either send e mail to dwallach cs berkeley edu or you can anonymous ftp to soda berkeley edu and look in the pub typing injury directory enjoy dan wallach one of the most attractive features of a connection dwallach cs berkeley edu machine is the array of blinking lights on the faces office of its cabinet cm paris ref manual v p
sci.med	faq typing injuries general info monthly posting archive name typing injury faq general version revision date answers to frequently asked questions about typing injuries the typing injury faq sources of information for people with typing injuries repetitive stress injuries carpal tunnel syndrome etc copyright by dan wallach dwallach cs berkeley edu many faqs including this one are available on the archive site pit manager mit edu alias rtfm mit edu in the directory pub usenet news answers the name under which a faq is archived appears in the archive name line at the top of the article this faq is archived as typing injury faq general z there s a mail server also just e mail mail server pit manager mit edu with the word help on a line by itself in the body the opinions in here are my own unless otherwise mentioned and do not represent the opinions of any organization or vendor i m not a medical doctor so my advice should be taken with many grains of salt current distribution sci med occupational sci med comp human factors news sci comp answers and e mail to c health iubvm ucs indiana edu sorehand vm ucsf edu and cstg l vtvm cc vt edu changes since previously distributed versions are marked with change bars to the right of the text as is this paragraph table of contents mailing lists newsgroups etc the soda berkeley edu archive general info on injuries typing posture ergonomics prevention treatment requests for more info references mailing lists newsgroups etc usenet news comp human factors occasionally has discussion about alternative input devices comp risks has an occasional posting relevant to injuries via computers sci med and misc handicap also tend to have relevant traffic there s a brand new newsgroup sci med occupational chartered specifically to discuss these things this would be the recommended place to post mailing lists the rsi network available both on paper and via e mail this publication covers issues relevant to those with repetitive stress injuries for a sample issue and subscription information send a stamped self addressed business envelope to caroline rose paradise way palo alto ca e mail to crose applelink apple com donation requested all rsi network newsletters are available via anonymous ftp from soda berkeley edu see below for details c health and sorehand are both ibm listserv things for those familiar with listserv here s the quick info c health subscribe to listserv iubvm ucs indiana edu post to c health iubvm ucs indiana edu sorehand subscribe to listserv vm ucsf edu post to sorehand vm ucsf edu quick tutorial on subscribing to a listserv mail listserv vm ucsf edu subject total listserv mania subscribe sorehand j random hacker info that s all there is to it you ll get bunches of mail back from the listserv including a list of other possible commands you can mail cool huh what ll those bitnet people think of next the soda berkeley edu archive i ve started an archive site for info related to typing injuries just anonymous ftp to soda berkeley edu pub typing injury currently you ll find informative files typing injury faq general information about typing injuries keyboards products to replace your keyboard software software to watch your keyboard usage changes changes since last month s edition new keyboard commentary dan s opinions on the keyboard replacements amt advice about adverse mechanical tension caringforwrists sit hqx pagemaker document about your wrists caringforwrists ps postscript converted version of above carpal info info on carpal tunnel syndrome carpal explained very detailed information about cts carpal surgery jama article on cts surgery carpal tidbits tidbits article on cts tendonitis info info on tendonitis rsi biblio bibliography of rsi related publications rsi network archive of the rsi network newsletter currently containing issues through rsi details long detailed information about rsi rsi physical study showing rsi isn t just psychological various product literature apple press press release on the apple adjustable keyboard apple tidbits extensive info about apple s adjustable keybd bat info macweek review on the bat comfort marketing info on the comfort keyboard datahand review detailed opinions of the datahand datahand review follow up to above datahand desc description of the datahand s appearance kinesis review one user s personal opinions maltron marketing info on various maltron products maltron review one user s personal opinions vertical info marketing info on the vertical new programs with the exception of accpak exe everything here is distributed as source to be compiled with a unix system some programs take advantage of the x window system also hsh shar a program for one handed usage of normal keyboards typewatch shar tells you when to take a break xdvorak c turns your qwerty keyboard into dvorak xidle shar keeps track of how long you ve been typing rest reminder sh yet another idle watcher kt tar generates fake x keyboard events from the serial port use a pc keyboard on anything new improved version accpak exe a serial port keyboard spoofer for ms windows note a x tar and rk tar are both from export lcs mit edu contrib so they may have a more current version than soda a x tar a more sophisticated x keyboard mouse spoofing program supports dragondictate note a new version is now available rk tar the reactive keyboard predicts what you ll type next saves typing pictures in the gifs subdirectory howtosit gif picture of good sitting posture the caringforwrists document is better for this accukey gif fuzzy picture accukey gif fuzzy picture with somebody using it apple gif the apple adjustable keyboard bat gif the infogrip bat comfort gif the health care comfort keyboard datahand gif fuzzy picture datahand gif key layout schematic datahand gif a much better picture of the datahand flexpro gif the key tronic flexpro keyboard kinesis gif the kinesis ergonomic keyboard kinesis gif multiple views of the kinesis maltron gif several pictures of maltron products mikey gif the mikey mikey gif schematic picture of the mikey tony gif the tony ergonomic keysystem twiddler gif front view twiddler gif side view vertical gif the vertical keyboard wave gif the iocomm wave keyboard many files are compressed have a z ending if you can t uncompress a file locally soda will do it just ask for the file without the z extension if you re unable to ftp to soda send me e mail and we ll see what we can arrange general info on injuries first and foremost of importance if you experience pain at all then you absolutely need to go see a doctor as soon as you possibly can the difference of a day or two can mean the difference between a short recovery and a long drawn out ordeal go see a doctor now your garden variety doctor may not necessarily be familiar with this sort of injury generally any hospital with an occupational therapy clinic will offer specialists in these kinds of problems don t wait though go see a doctor the remainder of this information is paraphrased without permission from a wonderful report by new zealand s department of labour occupational safety and health service occupational overuse syndrome treatment and rehabilitation a practitioner s guide first a glossary or fancy names for how you shouldn t have your hands note you re likely to hear these terms from doctors and keyboard vendors rsi repetitive strain injury a general term for many kinds of injuries oos occupational overuse syndrome synonym for rsi ctd cumulative trauma disorder another synonym for rsi wruld work related upper limb disorders yet another synonym for rsi cts carpal tunnel syndrome see below hyperextension marked bending at a joint pronation turning the palm down wrist extension bending the wrist up supination turning the palm up wrist flexion bending the wrist down pinch grip the grip used for a pencil ulnar deviation bending the wrist towards the little finger power grip the grip used for a hammer radial deviation bending the wrist toward the thumb abduction moving away from the body overspanning opening the fingers out wide now then problems come in two main types local conditions and diffuse conditions local problems are what you d expect specific muscles tendons tendon sheaths nerves etc being inflamed or otherwise hurt diffuse conditions often mistaken for local problems can involve muscle discomfort pain burning and or tingling with identifiable areas of tenderness in muscles although they re not necessarily the problem why does occupational overuse syndrome occur here s the theory normally your muscles and tendons get blood through capillaries which pass among the muscle fibers when you tense a muscle you restrict the blood flow by the time you re exerting of your full power you re completely restricting your blood flow without fresh blood your muscles use stored energy until they run out then they switch to anaerobic without oxygen metabolism which generates nasty by products like lactic acid which cause pain once one muscle hurts all its neighbors tense up perhaps to relieve the load this makes sense for your normal sort of injury but it only makes things worse with repetitive motion more tension means less blood flow and the cycle continues another by product of the lack of blood flow is tingling and numbness from your nerves they need blood too anyway when you re typing too much you re never really giving a change for the blood to get back where it belongs because your muscles never relax enough to let the blood through stress poor posture and poor ergonomics only make things worse specific injuries you may have heard of note most injuries come in two flavors acute and chronic acute injuries are severely painful and noticable chronic conditions have less pronounced symptoms but are every bit as real tenosynovitis an inflamation of the tendon sheath chronic tenosynovitis occurs when the repetitive activity is mild or intermittent not enough to cause acute inflamation but enough to exceed the tendon sheath s ability to lubricate the tendon as a result the tendon sheath thickens gets inflamed and you ve got your problem tendonitis an inflammation of a tendon repeated tensing of a tendon can cause inflamation eventually the fibers of the tendon start separating and can even break leaving behind debris which induces more friction more swelling and more pain sub acute tendonitis is more common which entails a dull ache over the wrist and forearm some tenderness and it gets worse with repetitive activity carpal tunnel syndrome the nerves that run through your wrist into your fingers get trapped by the inflamed muscles around them symptoms include feeling pins and needles tingling numbness and even loss of sensation cts is often confused for a diffuse condition adverse mechanical tension also known as neural tension this is where the nerves running down to your arm have become contracted and possibly compressed as a result of muscle spasms in the shoulders and elsewhere amt can often misdiagnosed as or associated with one of the other oos disorders it is largely reversible and can be treated with physiotherapy brachial plexus stretches and trigger point therapy others for just about every part of your body there s a fancy name for a way to injure it by now you should be getting an idea of how oos conditions occur and why just be careful many inexperienced doctors misdiagnose problems as carpal tunnel syndrome when in reality you may have a completely different problem always get a second opinion before somebody does something drastic to you like surgery typing posture ergonomics prevention treatment the most important element of both prevention and recovery is to reduce tension in the muscles and tendons this requires learning how to relax if you re under a load of stress this is doubly important tune out the world and breath deep and regular relaxing should become a guiding principle in your work every three minutes take a three second break every three minutes take a three second break really do it every three minutes it s also helpful to work in comfortable surroundings calm down and relax if you can t sleep you really need to focus on this rest sleep and relaxation are really a big deal there are all kinds of other treatments of course drugs can reduce inflamation and pain custom molded splints can forcefully prevent bad posture surgery can fix some problems exercise can help strengthen your muscles regular stretching can help prevent injury good posture and a good ergonomic workspace promote reduced tension ice or hot cold contrast baths also reduce swelling only your doctor can say what s best for you posture here are some basic guidelines i so liked the way this was written in the new zealand book that i m lifting it almost verbatim from appendix dwallach let your shoulders relax let your elbows swing free keep your wrists straight pull your chin in to look down don t flop your head forward keep the hollow in the base of your spine try leaning back in the chair don t slouch or slump forward alter your posture from time to time every minutes get up and bend your spine backward set the seat height first your feet should be flat on the floor there should be no undue pressure on the underside of your thighs near the knees and your thighs should not slope too much now draw yourself up to your desk and see that its height is comfortable to work at if you are short this may be impossible the beest remedy is to raise the seat height and prevent your legs from dangling by using a footrest now adjust the backrest height so that your buttocks fit into the space between the backrest and the seat pan the backrest should support you in the hollow of your back so adjust its tilt to give firm support in this area if you operate a keyboard you will be able to spend more time leaning back so experiment with a chair with a taller backrest if available now i diverge a little from the text a good chair makes a big difference if you don t like your chair go find a better one you really want adjustments for height back angle back height and maybe even seat tilt most arm rests seem to get in the way although some more expensive chairs have height adjustable arm rests which you can also rotate out of the way you should find a good store and play with all these chairs pick one that s right for you in the san francisco bay area i highly recommend just chairs the name says it all keyboard drawers wrist pads and keyboard replacements there is a fair amount of controvery on how to get this right for some people wrist pads seem to work wonders however with good posture you shouldn t be resting your wrists on anything you would prefer your keyboard to be right there if you drop your arms at your side and then lift your hands up at the elbow you want your keyboard under your hands when your elbows are at about degrees of course you want to avoid pronation wrist extension and ulnar deviation at all costs wrist pads may or may not help at this you should get somebody else to come and look at how you work how you sit how you type and how you relax it s often easier for somebody else to notice your hunched shoulders or deviated hands some argue that the normal flat keyboard is antiquated and poorly designed a number of replacements are available on the market today check out the accompanying typing injury faq keyboards for much detail requests for more info clearly the above information is incomplete the typing injury archive is incomplete there s always more information out there if you d like to submit something please send me mail and i ll gladly throw it in if you d like to maintain a list of products or vendors that would be wonderful i d love somebody to make a list of chair desk vendors i d love somebody to make a list of doctors i d love somebody to edit the above sections looking for places where i ve obviously goofed references i completely rewrote the information section here using a wonderful guide produced in new zealand by their occupational safety health service a service of their department of labour special thanks to the authors wigley turner blake darby mcinnes and harding semi bibliographic reference occupational overuse syndrome treatment and rehabilitation a practitioner s guide published by the occupational safety and health service department of labour wellington new zealand first edition june isbn price new zealand s of course thanks to richard donkin richardd hoskyns co uk for reviewing this posting dan wallach one of the most attractive features of a connection dwallach cs berkeley edu machine is the array of blinking lights on the faces office of its cabinet cm paris ref manual v p
sci.med	re science and methodology in article apr sbcs sunysb edu mhollowa ic sunysb edu michael holloway writes in article c jv ggb news hawaii edu lady uhunix uhcc hawaii edu lee lady writes i would also like to point out that most of the arguments about science in sci med sci psychology etc are not about cases where people are rejecting scientific argument evidence proof they are about cases where no adequate scientific research has been done in some cases there is quite a bit of evidence but it isn t in a format to fit doctrinaire conceptions of what science is here it is again this indicates confusion between proof and the process of doing science you are making precisely one of the points i wanted to make i fully agree with you that there is a big distinction between the process of science and the end result as an end result of science one wants to get results that are objectively verifiable but there is nothing objective about the process of science if good empirical research were done and showed that there is some merit to homeopathic remedies this would certainly be valuable information but it would still not mean that homeopathy qualifies as a science this is where you and i disagree with turpin in order to have science one must have a theoretical structure that makes sense not a mere collection of empirically validated random hypotheses experiment and empirical studies are an important part of science but they are merely the culmination of scientific research the most important part of true scientific methodology is scientific thinking without this one does not have any hypotheses worth testing no hypotheses do not just leap out at you after you look at enough data nor do they simply come to you in a flash one day while you re shaving or looking out the window at least not unless you ve done a lot of really good thinking beforehand the difference between a nobel prize level scientist and a mediocre scientist does not lie in the quality of their empirical methodology it depends on the quality of their thinking it really bothers me that so many graduate students seem to believe that they are doing science merely because they are conducting empirical studies and it bothers me even more that there are many fields such as certain parts of psychology where there seems to be no thinking at all but mere studies testing ad hoc hypotheses and i m especially offended by russell turpin s repeated assertion that science amounts to nothing more than avoiding mistakes simply avoiding mistakes doesn t get you anywhere in the arguments between behaviorists and cognitivists psychology seems less like a science than a collection of competing religious sects lady uhunix uhcc hawaii edu lady uhunix bitnet
sci.med	re natural anti cancer aids remedies in article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu gordon banks writes in article apr cnsvax uwec edu mcelwre cnsvax uwec edu writes the biggest reason why the cost of medical care is so extremely high and increasing is that natural methods of treatment and even diagnosis are still being systematically ignored and suppressed by the money grubbing and power mongering medical establishment that s not the half of it did you realize that all medical doctors have now been replaced by aliens yup by the way what planet are you from and once you got here did you encounter those prejudices against foreign medical graduates david wright hitachi computer products america inc waltham ma wright hicomb hi com these are my opinions not necessarily hitachi s though they are the opinions of all right thinking people
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article qi h innr o roundup crhc uiuc edu mary uicsl csl uiuc edu mary e allison writes two different tuesdays two weeks apart we used the same day of the week just for consistancies sake we ordered food from the local chinese take out same exact food except one of the days we had them hold the msg i did not know which time the food was ordered without the msg but one time i had the reaction and one time i did not now you can try to tell me that it wasn t scientific enough and that i have not proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that i have a reaction to msg but it was proof enough for me and i ll have you know that i do not wish to get sick from eating food thank you very much if you could not tell which one had msg why restaurants bother to use it at all if you can taste the difference psychological reaction might play a role the fact is msg is part of natural substance everyone i mean everyone consumes certain amount of msg every day through regular diet without the synthesized msg additive chinese and many other asians japanese koreans etc have used msg as flavor enhancer for two thousand years do you believe that they knew how to make msg from chemical processes not they just extracted it from natural food such sea food and meat broth baring msg is just like baring sugar which many people react to jason chen
sci.med	re morbus meniere is there a real remedy in article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu gordon banks writes a recent movie lorenzo s oil offers a perfect example of what i m talking about if you haven t seen it you should it s not i saw it it is almost a unique case in history first ald is a rare but fatal disease their accomplishment was significant of course it was overplayed in the movie for dramatic effect the oil is not curative and doesn t even prevent progression only slows it there s a pretty good article in the the march new scientist titled pouring cold water on lorenzo s oil the article states that research has shown that the oil has no discernable effect on the progression of the disease in patients in which demyelination has begun in patients with amn a less acute form of the same disease there is some improvement seen in the ability of nerve fibres to conduct impulses in ald patients who have not yet begun demyelination the jury is still out dale cook
sci.med	podiatry school info hello i am planning on attending podiatry school next year i have narrowed my choices to the pennsylvania college of podiatric medicine in philadelphia or the california college of podiatric medicine in san francisco if anyone has any information or oppinions about these two schools please tell me i am having a hard time deciding which one to attend and must make a decision very soon thank you larry live from new york it s saturday night tonight s special guest lawrence silverberg from the state university of new york albany aka ls gemini albany edu
sci.med	food related seizures i am posting to this group in hopes of finding someone out there in network newsland who has heard of something similar to what i am going to describe here i have a fourteen year old daugter who experienced a seizure on november at am after eating kellog s frosted flakes she is perfectly healthy had never experienced anything like this before and there is no history of seizures in either side of the family all the tests eeg mri ekg came out negative so the decision was made to do nothing and just wait to see if it happened again well we were going along fine and the other morning april she had a bowl of another kellog s frosted kind of cereal fruit loops i am embarrassed to admit that i even bought that junk but every once in a while so i pour it in her bowl and think oh oh this is the same kind of junk she was eating when she had that seizure ten minutes later she had a full blown seizures this was her first exposure to a sugar coated cereal since the last seizure when i mentioned what she ate the first time as a possible reason for the seizure the neurologist basically negated that as an idea now after this second episode so similar in nature to the first even he is scratching his head once again her eeg looks normal which i understand can happen even when a person has a seizure once again we are waiting i have been thinking that it would be good to get to as large a group as possible to see if anyone has any experience with this kind of thing i know that members of the medical community are sometimes loathe to admit the importance that diet and foods play in our general health and well being anyway as you can guess i am worried sick about this and would appreciate any ideas anyone out there has sorry to be so wordy but i wanted to really get across what is going on here thanks sharon paulson s s paulson larc nasa gov nasa langley research center bldg d mailstop work hampton virginia home
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article apr walter bellcore com jchen ctt bellcore com writes chinese and many other asians japanese koreans etc have used msg as flavor enhancer for two thousand years do you believe that they knew how to make msg from chemical processes not they just extracted it from natural food such sea food and meat broth and to add further fuel to the flame war i read about years ago that the natural msg extracted from the sources you mention above does not cause the reported aftereffects it s only that nasty artificial msg extracted from coal tar or whatever that causes chinese restaurant syndrome i find this pretty hard to believe has anyone else heard it andrew
sci.med	re science and methodology was homeopathy tradition in article apr ecsvax uncecs edu ccreegan ecsvax uncecs edu charles l creegan writes what about kekule s infamous derivation of the idea of benzene rings from a daydream of snakes in the fire biting their tails is this specific enough to count certainly it turns up repeatedly in basic phil of sci texts as an example of the inventive component of hypothesizing and has been rather thoroughly demolished as myth by robert scott root bernstein see his book discovering ring structures for benzene had been proposed before kekule after him and at the same time as him the current models do not resemble kekule s many of the predecessors of kekule s structure resemble the modern model more i don t think extra scientific is a very useful phrase in a discussion of the boundaries of science except as a proposed definiens extra rational is a better phrase in fact there are quite a number of well known cases of extra rational considerations driving science in a useful direction for example pasteur discovered that racemic acid was a mixture of enantiomers the origin of stereochemistry partly because he liked a friend s crank theory of chemical action the friend was wrong but pasteur s discovery stood a prior investigator mitscherlich looking at the same phenomenon had missed a crucial detail presumably because he lacked pasteur s motivation to find something that distinguished racemic acid from tartaric now we say d tartaric acid again pasteur discovered the differential fermentation of enantiomers tartaric acid again not because of some rational conviction but because he was trying to produce yeast that lived on l tartaric acid his notebooks contained fantasies of becoming the newton of mirror image life which he never admitted publically perhaps the best example is the discovery that dna carries genes avery started this work because of one of his students and ardent anglophile and francophobe canadian defended fred griffiths discoveries in mice most of griffiths critics were french which decided the issue for the student avery told him to replicate griffiths work in vitro which the student eventually did whereupon avery was convinced and started the research program which in or so years produced the famous discovery avery macleod and mccarty jem mark a fulk university of rochester computer science department fulk cs rochester edu
sci.med	re update help was what is this is it lyme s in article apr lamont ldgo columbia edu brenner ldgo columbia edu carl brenner writes see the ulterior motive here it is easy for me to see it the those physicians who call everything lyme and treat everything there is a lot of money involved you keep bringing this up but i don t understand what s in it financially for the physician to go ahead and treat unless the physician has an investment in or is involved in some kickback scheme with the home infusion company where is the financial gain for the doctor well let me put it this way based on my own experience a general practitioner with no training in infectious diseases by establishing links to the lyme community treating patients who come to him wondering about lyme or having decided they have lyme as if they did saying that diseases such as ms are probably spirochetal if not lyme giving talks at meetings of users groups validating the feelings of even delusional patients etc this gp can go from being a run of the mill k yr gp to someone with lots of patients in the hospital and getting expensive infusions that need monitoring in his office and making lots of bread also getting the adulation of many who believe his is their only hope if not of cure then of control and seeing his name in publications put out by support groups etc this is a definite temptation gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	water supplies vulnerable to milwaukee type disease outbreak here is a press release from the natural resources defense council new data show about major u s water supplies vulnerable to milwaukee type disease outbreak to national desk environment writer contact erik olson or sarah silver both of the natural resources defense council washington april internal epa data released today by the natural resources defense council reveals that about large water systems serving cities from boston to san francisco do not filter to remove disease carrying organisms leaving those communities potentially vulnerable to a disease outbreak similar to the one affecting milwaukee the epa list is attached these internal epa documents reveal that the safety of water supplies in many american cities is threatened by inadequate pollution controls or filtration said erik olson a senior attorney with nrdc water contamination isn t just a problem in bangladesh it s also a problem in bozeman and boston as of june about large surface water systems on epa s list probably will be breaking the law the safe drinking water act requires all surface water systems to either filter their water or fully protect the rivers or lakes they use from pollution olson continued some systems are moving towards eventually implementing filtration systems but are expected to miss the law s deadline olson pointed out that the threat of contamination is already a reality in other cities a survey of u s surface water systems by water utility scientists found that percent of raw water samples contained the milwaukee organism cryptosporidium and percent contained a similar parasite called giardia adding to the level of concern a general accounting office study released today by house health and environment subcommittee chairman henry waxman indicates serious deficiencies in the nation s system for conducting and following through on sanitary surveys of water systems this new information raises a huge warning sign that millions of americans can no longer simply turn on their taps and be assured that their water is safe to drink we must immediately put into place programs to protect water sources from contamination and where this is not assured filtration equipment must be installed to protect the public olson noted the time has come for many of the nation s water utilities to stop dragging their feet and to aggressively protect their water from contamination consumers are prepared to pay the modest costs needed to assure their water is safe to drink nrdc is a national non profit environmental advocacy organization systems epa indicates require filtration and do not adequately protect watersheds connecticut bridgeport bridgeport hydraulic co massachusetts boston h o resource author mwra medford mwra medford water dept melrose mwra melrose water dept hilton mwra hilton water dept needham mwra needham water division newtoncenter mwra newton water dept marblehead mwra marblehead water dept quincy mwra quincy water dept norwood mwra norwood water dept framingham mwra framingham water div cambridge mwra cambridge water dept canton mwra canton water div dpw chelsea mwra chelsea water dept everett mwra everett water dept lexington mwra bedford puo wrks lynn mwra lynn water sewer co malden mwra malden water division revere mwra revere water dept woburn mwra woburn water dept swampscott mwra swampscott water dept saugus mwra saugus water dept somerville mwra somerville water dept stoneman mwra stoneman water dept brookline mwra brookline water dept wakefield mwra same as above waltham mwra waltham water division watertown mwra watertown water division weston mwra weston water dept dedham mwra dedham westwood district winchester mwra winchester water sewer winthrop mwra winthrop water dept boston mwra boston water sewer co s hadley mwra south hadley fire dist arlington mwra arlington water dept belmont mwra belmont water dept clinton mwra clinton water dept attleboro attleboro water dept fitchburg fitchburg water dept northampton northampton water dept north adams north adams water dept amherst amherst water division dpw gardner gardner water dept worcester worcester dpw water oper westboro westboro water dept southbridge southbridge water supply co newburyport newburyport water dept hingham hingham water co brockton brockton water dept maine rockland camden rockland water co bath bath water district new hampshire keene city of keene salem salem water dept vermont barre city barre city water system rutland city rutland city water dept new york glens falls glens falls city yorktown hts yorktown water storage dist rochester rochester city henrietta henrietta wd rochester mcwa upland system rochester greece consolidated new york nyc aquaduct sys croton chappaqua new castle stanwood wd beacon beacon city mamaronek westchester joint water works pennsylvania bethlehem bethlehem public water sys johnstown greater johnstown water auth lock haven city of lock haven water dept shamokin roaring creek water comp harrisburg harrisburg city hazleton hazleton city water dept wind gap blue mt consolidated apollo westmoreland auth fayettville guilford water auth humlock creek pg w ceasetown reservoir springbrook pg w waters reservoir wilkes barre pg w gardners creek wilkes barre pg w hill creek wilkes barre pg w plymouth relief altoona altoona city auth tamaqua tamaqua municipal water waynesboro waynesboro borough auth pottsville schuykill co mun auth virginia covington city of covington fishersville south river sa dist acsa south carolina greenville greenville water sys michigan sault ste marie sault ste marie marquette marquette montana butte butte water co bozeman bozeman city california san francisco city county of san fran nevada reno westpac idaho twin falls twin falls city washington aberdeen aberdeen water dept centralia centralia water dept nigel allen toronto ontario canada ndallen r node hub org
sci.med	re science and methodology was homeopathy tradition in article apr ecsvax uncecs edu ccreegan ecsvax uncecs edu charles l creegan writes what about kekule s infamous derivation of the idea of benzene rings from a daydream of snakes in the fire biting their tails is this specific enough to count certainly it turns up repeatedly in basic phil of sci texts as an example of the inventive component of hypothesizing i think the question is what is extra scientific about this it has been a long time since anyone has proposed restrictions on where one comes up with ideas in order for them to be considered legitimate hypotheses the point in short is this hypotheses and speculation in science may come from wild flights of fancy daydreams ancient traditions modern quackery or anywhere else russell
sci.med	exercise and migraine we were talking about migraine and exercise i m the one who can t fathom the thought of exercise during migraine anyway turning the thread around the other day i played tennis during my lunch hour i m out of tennis shape so it was very intense exercise i got overheated and dehydrated afterwards i noticed a tingling sensation all over my head then about hours later i could feel a migraine start i continued to drink water in the afternoon i took cafergot but it didn t help and the pain started although it wasn t as intense as it usually is and about pm that night the pain subsided this isn t the first time that i ve had a migraine occur after exercise i m wondering if anyone else has had the same experience and i wonder what triggers the migraine in this situation heat buildup dehydration i m not giving up tennis so is there anything i can do besides get into shape and don t play at high noon to prevent this thanks janet jakstys uucp ames mcdcup ntmtv janet northern telecom internet janet ntmtv com mtn view ca
sci.med	erythromycin is erythromycin effective in treating pneumonia fm
sci.med	re chronic sinus and antibiotics if the nose culture shows staph then ceftin or even ceclor are better suprax does not kill staph treating bacterial infections involves a lot of try and fail because the infections often involve multiple organisms with many resistant strains some of hemophilus influenza strains are now resistant what works for me and my organisms may not work for you and yours keep experimenting ken colby
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition article qjc finn gap caltech edu carl sol gps caltech edu writes now if instead of using the msg as a food additive you put the msg in gelatin capsules or whatever there may not be a reaction becasue the sensory response might be a necessary element in the creation of the msg reaction i ll bet the bogus medical researchers never even thought about that obvious fact gee he means placebo effect sorry but the researchers do know about this carl it is not placebo effect if as hypothesised the sensory response to msg s effect on flavor is responsible for the msg reaction steve
sci.med	re my new diet it works great gordon banks a lot to keep from going back to morbid obesity i think all of us cycle one s success depends on how large the fluctuations in the cycle are some people can cycle only pounds unfortunately i m not one of them this certainly describes my situation perfectly for me there is a constant dynamic between my tendency to eat which appears to be totally limitless and the purely conscious desire to not put on too much weight when i get too fat i just diet exercise more with varying degrees of success to take off the extra weight usually i cycle within a lb range but smaller and larger cycles occur as well i m always afraid that this method will stop working someday but usually i seem to be able to hold the weight gain in check this is one reason i have a hard time accepting the notion of some metabolic derangement associated with cycle dieting that results in long term weight gain i have been cycle dieting for at least years without seeing such a change i think a vigorous exercise program can go a long way toward keeping the cycles smaller and the baseline weight low brian
sci.med	re eugenics probably within years a new type of eugenics will be possible maybe even sooner we are now mapping the human genome we will then start to work on manipulation of that genome using genetic engineering we will be able to insert whatever genes we want no breeding no hybrids etc the ethical question is should we do this should we make a race of disease free long lived arnold schwartzenegger muscled supermen even if we can gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re homeopathy a respectable medical tradition in article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu gordon banks writes accepted by whom not by scientists there are people in every country who waste time and money on quackery in britain and scandanavia where i have worked it was not paid for what are most of these countries i don t believe you i am told by the person who i care a lot about and who i am worried is going to start putting his health and money into homeopathy without really knowing what he is getting into and who is the reason i posted in the first place about homeopathy that in britain homeopathy is available on the national health service and that there are about gps who use homeopathic practices true false what have there been any important and documented investigations into homeopathic principles i was reading a book on homeopathy over the weekend i turned to the section on the principles behind homeopathic medicine and two paragraphs informed me that homeopaths don t feel obliged to provide any sort of explanation the author stated this with pride as though it were some sort of virtue why am i sceptical about homeopathy is it because i am a narrow minded bigot or is it because homeopathy really looks more like witch doctory than anything else daniele
sci.med	re science and methodology was homeopathy tradition sasghm theseus unx sas com gary merrill writes ted marvin dgbt doc ca ted grusec writes gary by extra scientific i did not mean to imply that hypothesis generation was not in most cases extremely closely tied to the state of knowledge within a scientific area i meant was that there was no scientific logic involved in the process it is inductive not deductive i am further puzzled by the proposed distinction between scientific logic and inductive logic at this point i don t have a clue what you mean by extra scientific unless you mean that at some times someone seems to come up with an idea that we can t trace to prior theories concepts knowledge etc this is a fairly common observation but just for grins i d like to see some genuine examples ok just for grins kekule hypothesized a resonant structure for the aromatic benzene ring after waking from a dream in which a snake was swallowing his tail archimedes formalized the principle of buoyancy while meditating in his bath in neither case was there no connection to prior theories concepts etc as you stipulated above what there was was an intuitive leap beyond the current way of thinking to develop ideas which subsequently proved to have predictive power e g they stood the test of experimental verification pardon my kibbutzing tom
sci.med	re science and methodology was homeopathy tradition in article qk qqinngvs im u cs utexas edu turpin cs utexas edu russell turpin writes in article apr ecsvax uncecs edu ccreegan ecsvax uncecs edu charles l creegan writes what about kekule s infamous derivation of the idea of benzene rings from a daydream of snakes in the fire biting their tails is this specific enough to count certainly it turns up repeatedly in basic phil of sci texts as an example of the inventive component of hypothesizing i think the question is what is extra scientific about this it has been a long time since anyone has proposed restrictions on where one comes up with ideas in order for them to be considered legitimate hypotheses the point in short is this hypotheses and speculation in science may come from wild flights of fancy daydreams ancient traditions modern quackery or anywhere else russell yes but typically they don t not every wild flight of fancy serves or can serve in the appropriate relation to a hypothesis it is somewhat interesting that when anyone is challanged to provide an example of this sort the only one they come up with is the one about kekule surely there must be others but apparently this is regarded as an extreme example of a non rational process in science whereby a successful hypothesis was proposed but how non rational is it of course we can t hope currently at least to explain how or why kekule had the daydream of snakes in the fire biting their tails surely it wasn t the only daydream he had what was special about this one could it have had something to do with a perceived analogy between the geometry of the snakes and problems concerning geometry of molecules is such analogical reasoning extra scientific or is it rather at the very heart of science perice s notion of abduction the use of models within and across disciplines upon close examination is there a non rational mystical leap taking place or is it perhaps closer to a formal though often incomplete analogy or model gary h merrill principal systems developer c compiler development sas institute inc sas campus dr cary nc sasghm theseus unx sas com mcnc sas sasghm
sci.med	re emphysema question thanks for all your assistance i ll see if he can try a different brand of patches although he s tried two brands already are there more than two melissa mmatusev radford vak ed edu after a time you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing after all as wanting it is not logical but it is often true spock to stonn
sci.med	re science and methodology in article c i bo cg news hawaii edu lady uhunix uhcc hawaii edu lee lady writes the difference between a nobel prize level scientist and a mediocre scientist does not lie in the quality of their empirical methodology it depends on the quality of their thinking it really bothers me that so many graduate students seem to believe that they are doing science merely because they are conducting empirical studies and i m especially offended by russell turpin s repeated assertion that science amounts to nothing more than avoiding mistakes simply avoiding mistakes doesn t get you anywhere i think that lee lady and i are talking at cross purposes above lady seems concerned with the contrast between great science that makes big advances in our knowledge and mediocre science that makes smaller steps in most of this thread i have been concerned with the difference between what is science and what is not lee lady is correct when she asserts that the difference between einstein and the average post doc physicist is the quality of their thought but what is the difference between einstein and a genius who would be a great scientist but whose great thoughts are scientifically screwy some would give velikovsky or korzybski as examples if you don t like these choose your own i say it is the same as the difference between the mediocre physicist and the mediocre proponent of qi both einstein and the mediocre physcists have disciplined their work from the cumulative knowledge of how previous researchers went wrong both velikovsky and the mediocre proponent of qi have failed to do this let me approach this from a second direction when one is asked to review a paper for a journal or conference there are many kinds of criticism that one can make one kind of criticism is that the work is just wrong or misinformed another kind of criticism is that the work while technically correct is either not important or not interesting the first difference is the one that i have been pointing to the second difference is the one that lee lady seems to be discussing if good empirical research were done and showed that there is some merit to homeopathic remedies this would certainly be valuable information but it would still not mean that homeopathy qualifies as a science this is where you and i disagree with turpin i have often pointed out that for homeopathy to be considered scientific what is needed is a test of its theoretical claims not just of some of its proposed remedies similarly i suspect that traditional chinese medicine has many remedies that work what it lacks as one example is any experiment that tests the presence of qi in order to have science one must have a theoretical structure that makes sense not a mere collection of empirically validated random hypotheses certainly a theoretical structure that makes sense is the goal in areas where we do not yet have this i see nothing wrong with forming and testing smaller hypotheses let s face it we cannot always wait for an einstein to come along and make everything clear for us sometimes those of us who are not einstein have to plug along and make small amounts of progress as best we can russell
sci.med	re science and methodology was homeopathy tradition in article apr cs rochester edu fulk cs rochester edu mark fulk writes i don t think extra scientific is a very useful phrase in a discussion of the boundaries of science except as a proposed definiens extra rational is a better phrase in fact there are quite a number of well known cases of extra rational considerations driving science in a useful direction yeah but the problem with holding up the extra rational examples as exemplars or as refutations of well founded methodology is that you run smack up against such unuseful directions as lysenko such extra rational cases are curiosities not guides to methodology gary h merrill principal systems developer c compiler development sas institute inc sas campus dr cary nc sasghm theseus unx sas com mcnc sas sasghm
sci.med	re chronic sinus and antibiotics you can also swab the inside of your nose with bacitracin using a q tip bacitracin is an antibiotic that can be bought otc as an ointment in a tube the doctor i listen to on the radio says to apply it for days while you are taking other antibiotics by mouth
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article apr tms micro ti com david tms micro ti com david thomas writes cnavarro cymbal calpoly edu claire writes is there such a thing as msg monosodium glutamate sensitivity i saw in the ny times sunday that scientists have testified before an fda advisory panel that complaints about msg sensitivity are superstition anybody here have experience to the contrary i m old enough to remember that the issue has come up at least a couple of times since the s then it was called the chinese restaurant syndrome because chinese cuisine has always used it so far i ve seen about a dozen posts of anecdotal evidence but no facts i suspect there is a strong psychological effect at work here does anyone have results from a scientific study using double blind trials here is another anecdotal story i am a picky eater and never wanted to try chinese food however i finally tried some in order to please a girl i was seeing at the time i had never heard of chinese restaurant syndrome a group of us went to the restaurant and all shared different dishes it didn t taste great but i decided it wasn t so bad we went home and went to bed early i woke up at am and puked my guts outs i threw up for so long that i m not kidding i pulled a muscle in my tongue dry heaves and everything no one else got sick and i m not allergic to anything that i know of suffice to say that i wont go into a chinese restaurant unless i am physically threatened the smell of the food makes me ill and that is a psycholgical reaction when i have been dragged in to suffer through beef and broccoli without any sauces i insist on no msg i haven t gotten sick yet doug bank private systems division dougb ecs comm mot com motorola communications sector dougb nwu edu schaumburg illinois dougb casbah acns nwu edu
sci.med	future of methanol i hope this is the correct newsgroup for this what is the scoop on methanol and its future as an alternative fuel for vehicles how does it compare to ethanol there was some news about health risks involved anybody know about that how does the us clean air act impact the use of methanol by the year i think its methyl tertiary butyl ether which the future industries will use as a substitute for conventional fuels there is company methanex which produces of the world s supply of methanol does anybody know about it please reply by e mail as i do not read these newsgroups thanks in advance vilok kusumakar osi protocols for tomorrow vilok bnr ca bell northern research ltd phone p o box station c fax ottawa ontario k y h
sci.med	re science and methodology was homeopathy tradition in article apr microsoft com tomca microsoft com tom b carey writes ok just for grins kekule hypothesized a resonant structure for the aromatic benzene ring after waking from a dream in which a snake was swallowing his tail archimedes formalized the principle of buoyancy while meditating in his bath well certainly in archimedes case the description while observing the phenomena in his bath seems more accurate than while meditating in his bath it was after all a rather buoyancy intense environment gary h merrill principal systems developer c compiler development sas institute inc sas campus dr cary nc sasghm theseus unx sas com mcnc sas sasghm
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article apr lmpsbbs comm mot com dougb comm mot com doug bank writes i woke up at am and puked my guts outs i threw up for so long that i m not kidding i pulled a muscle in my tongue dry heaves and everything no one else got sick and i m not allergic to anything that i know of the funny thing is the personaly stories about reactions to msg vary so greatly some said that their heart beat speeded up with flush face some claim their heart skipped beats once in a while some reacted with headache some stomach ache some had watery eyes or running nose some had itchy skin or rashes more serious accusations include respiration difficulty and brain damage now here is a new one vomiting my guess is that msg becomes the number one suspect of any problem in this case it might be just food poisoning but if you heard things about msg you may think it must be it jason chen
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article apr lmpsbbs comm mot com dougb comm mot com doug bank writes here is another anecdotal story i am a picky eater and never wanted to try chinese food however i finally tried some in order to please a girl i was seeing at the time i had never heard of chinese restaurant syndrome a group of us went to the restaurant and all shared different dishes it didn t taste great but i decided it wasn t so bad we went home and went to bed early i woke up at am and puked my guts outs i threw up for so long that i m not kidding i pulled a muscle in my tongue dry heaves and everything no one else got sick and i m not allergic to anything that i know of suffice to say that i wont go into a chinese restaurant unless i am physically threatened the smell of the food makes me ill and that is a psycholgical reaction when i have been dragged in to suffer through beef and broccoli without any sauces i insist on no msg i haven t gotten sick yet i had a similar reaction to chinese food but came to a completly different conclusion i ve eaten chinese food for ages and never had problems i went with some chinese malaysian friends to a swanky chinses rest and they ordered lots of stuff i had never seen before the only thing i can remember of that meal was the first course scallops served in the shell with a soy type sauce i thought well i ve only had scallops once and i was sick after but that could have been a coincidence that night as i sat on the bathroom floor sweating and emptying my stomach the hard way i decided i would never touch another scallop i may not be allergic but i don t want to take the chance amy mossman
sci.med	re exercise and migraine in article apr ntmtv janet ntmtv com janet jakstys writes this isn t the first time that i ve had a migraine occur after exercise i m wondering if anyone else has had the same experience and i wonder what triggers the migraine in this situation heat buildup dehydration i m not giving up tennis so is there anything i can do besides get into shape and don t play at high noon to prevent this i ve gotten migraines after exercise though for me it seems to be related to exercising without having eaten recently sherri nichols snichols adobe com
sci.med	re science and methodology in article qk linnl im u cs utexas edu turpin cs utexas edu russell turpin writes in article c i bo cg news hawaii edu lady uhunix uhcc hawaii edu lee lady writes the difference between a nobel prize level scientist and a mediocre scientist does not lie in the quality of their empirical methodology it depends on the quality of their thinking lee lady is correct when she asserts that the difference between einstein and the average post doc physicist is the quality of their thought but what is the difference between einstein and a genius who would be a great scientist but whose great thoughts are scientifically screwy this example is probably wrong there is the case of one famous physicist telling another that he was probably wrong as i recall the quote your ideas are crazy to be sure but they are not crazy enough to be right the typical screwball is only somewhat screwy herman rubin dept of statistics purdue univ west lafayette in phone hrubin snap stat purdue edu internet bitnet purdue pur ee snap stat hrubin uucp
sci.med	re science and methodology was homeopathy tradition in article c je krl unx sas com sasghm theseus unx sas com gary merrill writes in article apr cs rochester edu fulk cs rochester edu mark fulk writes i don t think extra scientific is a very useful phrase in a discussion of the boundaries of science except as a proposed definiens extra rational is a better phrase in fact there are quite a number of well known cases of extra rational considerations driving science in a useful direction yeah but the problem with holding up the extra rational examples as exemplars or as refutations of well founded methodology is that you run smack up against such unuseful directions as lysenko such extra rational cases are curiosities not guides to methodology as has been noted before there is the distinction between motivation and method no experimental result should be accepted unless it is described in sufficient detail to be replicated and the replications do indeed reproduce the result no theoretical argument should be accepted unless it is presented in sufficient detail to be followed and reasonable knowlegeable people agree with the force of the logic but people try experiments and pursue arguments for all sorts of crazy reasons irrational motivations are not just curiousities they are a large part of the history of science there are a couple of negative points to make here a theory of qi could conceivably become accepted without direct verification of the existence of qi for example quarks are an accepted part of the standard model of physics with no direct verification what would be needed would be a theory based on qi that predicted medical reality better than the alternatives the central theoretical claim could lie forever beyond experiment as long as there was a sufficient body of experimental data that the qi theory predicted better than any other i wouldn t hold my breath waiting for the triumph of qi though i don t think that there is even a coherent theory based on it much less a theory that explains anything at all better than modern biology and it is hard to imagine a qi theory that would not predict some way of rather directly verifying the existence of qi science has not historically progressed in any sort of rational experiment data theory sequence most experiments are carried out and interpreted in pre existing theoretical frameworks the theoretical controversies of the day determine which experiments get done overall there is a huge messy affair of personal jealousies crazy motivations petty hatreds and the like that determines which experiments and which computations get done what keeps it going forward is the critical function of science results don t count unless they can be replicated the whole system is a sort of mechanism for generate and test the generate part can be totally irrational as long as the test part works properly pasteur could believe whatever he liked about chemical activity and crystals but even mitscherlich had to agree that racemic acid crystals were handed that when you separate them by handedness you get two chemicals that rotate polarized light in opposite directions and the right rotating version was indistinguishable from tartaric acid pasteur s irrational motivation had led to a replicable and important result this is where lysenko creationists etc fail they have usually not even produced coherent theories that predict much of anything when their theories do predict and are contradicted by experiment they do not concede the point and modify their theories rather they try to suppress the results lysenko or try to divert attention to other evidence they think supports their position creationists mark a fulk university of rochester computer science department fulk cs rochester edu
sci.med	re crohn s disease in article apr westminster ac uk kxaec sun pcl ac uk david watters wrote dear all i am a crohn s disease sufferer and i m interested if anyone knows of any current research that is going on into the subject i ve done some investigation myself so you don t need to spare me any details i ve had the fistulas the ileostomy etc is a cure on the horizon i am not in the medical profession so if you do reply i would appreciate plain speak i d prefer to be mailed direct as i don t always get a chance to read the news thank you in advance dave the best group to keep you informed is the crohn s and colitis foundation of america i do not know if the uk has a similar organization the address of the ccfa is ccfa park avenue south th floor new york ny usa they have a lot of information available and have a number of newsletters good luck steve
sci.med	re eugenics in article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu gordon banks writes we do this should we make a race of disease free long lived arnold schwartzenegger muscled supermen even if we can sure as long as they ll make one for me
sci.med	re science and methodology was homeopathy tradition gary merrill writes not every wild flight of fancy serves or can serve in the appropriate relation to a hypothesis it is somewhat interesting that when anyone is challanged to provide an example of this sort the only one they come up with is the one about kekule surely there must be others but apparently this is regarded as an extreme example of a non rational process in science whereby a successful hypothesis was proposed but how non rational is it indeed an extreme example it came out of nowhere the connection kekule saw between it and his problem is fortunate but not extraordinary i for example often receive conjure solutions hypotheses for solutions to my everyday problems at moments when i appear to myself to be occupied with activities quite removed algorithms for that new software feature come when i trample the meadow on my occasional runs alternative better ways to instruct and rear my sons arrive while i weed the garden i ll swear i am not thinking about any of it when ideas come these ideas are not the stuff of great discoveries of course but my connecting them to particular problems is fraught with deliberation and occasional fits of rationality surely it wasn t the only daydream kekule had what was special about this one could it have had something to do with a perceived analogy between the geometry of the snakes and problems concerning geometry of molecules yes and he was lucky to have such a colorful vivid image i alas will never figure out why returning worms to the loose soil of my garden brought have him count objects instead of merely count to mind regarding my year old s fledging arithmetic skills upon close examination is there a non rational mystical leap taking place or is it perhaps closer to a formal though often incomplete analogy or model the latter worms wiggling around in the dirt fascinate my son regards ted ted lehr my thoughts opinions and questions future systems technology group aws ibm internet lehr futserv austin ibm com austin tx
sci.med	re science and methodology was homeopathy tradition avoiding mistakes is certainly highly desirable however it is also widely acknowledged that perfectionism is inimicable to creativity and in ordinary life perfectionism carried beyond a certain point is indicative of a psychological disorder in the extreme case a perfectionist becomes so paralyzed by all the possible mistakes he might make that he is unable to even leave the house in science we want to discover as much truth about the world as possible and we also want to have as much certainty as possible about these discoveries usually there is some trade off between these two desiderata the search for scope and the search for certainty if th century mathematicians had demanded total rigor from newton and leibniz then there would probably be no calculus today because neither of the two could explain calculus in a way that really made sense since they lacked the concept of a limit and in fact because of the lack of a rigorous foundation they made a number of errors in their use of calculus it was only a hundred years later that weistrass was able to give a solid grounding for the ideas of newton and leibniz nonetheless what newton and leibniz did was undoubtedly science and mathematics gained a great deal more from the application of their important ideas than it lost through the mistakes they made in article apr kestrel edu king reasoning com dick king writes somebody writes i doubt if einstein used any formal methodology he also proposed numerous experiments which if performed would distinguish a universe in which special relativity holds from one in which it does not einstein played by the rules which demand that hypotheses only be put out there if there exists a specific experiment that could disprove them these are not the rules according to many who post to sci med and sci psychology according to these posters if it s not supported by carefully designed controlled studies then it s not science taken to the extreme i believe that the attitude that empirical studies are everything and ideas are nothing results in a complete stultification of science for one thing an insistence on an elaborate and expensive methodology results in a sort of scientific trade unionism where those outside the establishment and lacking institutional or corporate support have no chance to obtain a hearing i don t in the least believe that this is the intention of the arbiters of scientific methodology nonetheless it is one of the results and although institutional science has certainly produced many wonderful results i think it is a foolish arrogance for scientists to believe that no one outside the establishment and using less than perfect empirical methodology will ever come with anything worthwhile furthermore the big bucks approach to science promotes what i think is one of the most significant errors in science choosing to investigate questions because they can be readily handled by the currently fashionable methodology or because one can readily get institutional or corporate sponsorship for them instead of directing attention to those questions which seem to have fundamental significance for instance certain questions cannot be easily investigated with statistical methods because the relevant factors are not quantitative one could argue that this is the case for almost all questions in many areas of psychology in my opinion a perusal of many of the papers resulting from the attempt by psychologists to force these questions into a statistical framework gives the lie to russell turpin s assertion that current scientific methods avoid all known errors i think that asking the wrong question is probably the most fundamental error in science ignoring potentially valuable ideas is one of the others and i think that scientific journals are full of all too many studies done with impeccable empirical methods but which are worthless because the wrong question was asked in the first place in the arguments between behaviorists and cognitivists psychology seems less like a science than a collection of competing religious sects lady uhunix uhcc hawaii edu lady uhunix bitnet
sci.med	re exercise and migraine in article apr ntmtv janet ntmtv com janet jakstys writes the other day i played tennis during my lunch hour i m out of tennis shape so it was very intense exercise i got overheated and dehydrated afterwards i noticed a tingling sensation all over my head then about hours later i could feel a migraine start i continued to drink water in the afternoon i took cafergot but it didn t help and the pain started although it wasn t as intense as it usually is and about pm that night the pain subsided this isn t the first time that i ve had a migraine occur after exercise i m wondering if anyone else has had the same experience and i wonder what triggers the migraine in this situation heat buildup dehydration i m not giving up tennis so is there anything i can do besides get into shape and don t play at high noon to prevent this hi janet sounds exactly like mine same circumstance same onset symptoms same cafergot uselessness same duration in fact of all the people i know who have migraines none have been so similar there is such a wide variation between people with respect to what causes their headaches that i generally don t bother sharing what i ve learned about mine but since ours seem to be alike here are my observations i don t think it s heat per se i ve had more in winter than summer dehydration could conceivably figure though try tanking up before playing rather than after being in shape doesn t seem to help me much either i ve identified four factors that do make a difference listed in descending order of importance heavy exercise sleep deprivation fasting e g skipped breakfast physical trauma e g head bonk heavy exercise has preceded all of my post adolescent migraines but i don t get migraines after every heavy exercise session one or more of the other factors must be present usually since i discovered this i ve been nearly migraine free relapsing only once every two or three years when i get cocky it s been so long maybe i just don t get them anymore and stop being careful hope this is helpful john
sci.med	re erythromycin in article sdcc ucsd edu wsun jeeves ucsd edu fiberman writes is erythromycin effective in treating pneumonia fm not only is it effective it is in fact the drug of choice for uncomplicated cases of community acquired penumonia kenneth gilbert university of pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit not a programmer
sci.med	re emphysema question in article apr radford vak ed edu mmatusev radford vak ed edu melissa n matusevich writes thanks for all your assistance i ll see if he can try a different brand of patches although he s tried two brands already are there more than two the brands i can come up with off the top of my head are nicotrol nicoderm and habitrol there may be a fourth as well kenneth gilbert university of pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit not a programmer
sci.med	psoriatic arthritis info needed please a friend of mine has been diagnosed with psoriatic arthritis as a result of trauma sustained in a car accident several years ago the psoriasis is under control but the arthritis part of the illness is not ansaid non steroidal anti inflammatory worked pretty well for three years but isn t helping much now my friend is now taking meclomen another nsaid but this isn t helping control the pain at all in the past two months my friend has also started taking azulfadine along with the nsaid medicines but the effects of the combined drugs aren t supposed to be realized for several months as a result of the pain my friend is having problems sleeping staying in one position too long is an ordeal another major contributor to pain is that tendonitis has now developed left thumb and hand with numbness at the base of the palm bottom of feet shoulders and outer thighs the tendonitis is quite painful yet my friend s doctor has not recommended any form of treatment to relieve it the latest twist is that the doctor has dropped the anti inflammatories and is now recommending prednisone the hope is that the prednisone will relieve some of the pain from the tendonitis my friend is a year old male who feels like he s his words not mine if anyone is aware of any new treatments for psoriatic arthritis alternative courses of action support groups or literature on it i would be extremely grateful if you could e mail to me if anyone is interested i ll post a summary to this newsgroup thanks in advance donna dmp fig citib com
sci.med	re erythromycin in article sdcc ucsd edu wsun jeeves ucsd edu fiberman writes is erythromycin effective in treating pneumonia it depends on the cause of the pneumonia for treating bacterial pneumonia in young otherwise healthy non smokers erythromycin is usually considered the antibiotic of choice since it covers the two most common pathogens strep pneumoniae and mycoplasma pneumoniae david rind rind enterprise bih harvard edu
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article apr walter bellcore com jchen wind bellcore com jason chen writes in article apr lmpsbbs comm mot com dougb comm mot com doug bank writes i woke up at am and puked my guts outs i threw up for so long that i m not kidding i pulled a muscle in my tongue dry heaves and everything no one else got sick and i m not allergic to anything that i know of the funny thing is the personaly stories about reactions to msg vary so greatly some said that their heart beat speeded up with flush face some claim their heart skipped beats once in a while some reacted with headache some stomach ache some had watery eyes or running nose some had itchy skin or rashes more serious accusations include respiration difficulty and brain damage now here is a new one vomiting my guess is that msg becomes the number one suspect of any problem in this case it might be just food poisoning but if you heard things about msg you may think it must be it surprise surprise different people react differently to different things one slightly off the subject case in point my brother got stung by a bee i know he is allergic to bee stings but that his reaction is severe localized swelling not anaphylactic shock i could not convince the doctors of that however because that s not written in their little rule book i would not be surprised in the least to find out the some people have bad reactions to msg including headaches stomachaches and even vomiting not that the stuff is bad or poison and needs to be banned but people need to be aware that it can have a bad effect on some people lone wolf happy are they who dream dreams ed philips and pay the price to see them come true slyx cc usu edu unknown
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article c h z v crdnns crd ge com meltsner crd ge com writes i wouldn t call it a double blind but one local restaurant s soup provokes an impressive migraine headache for my wife that one take out and no other nothing unisual quote chinese restaurant syndrome crs a transient syndrome associated with arterial dilatation due to ingestion of monosodium glutamate which is used liberally in seasoning chinese food it is characterized by throbbing of the head lightheadedness tightness of the jaw neck and shoulders and bachache end quote source dorland s illustrated medical dictionary th edition w b saunders p this was known long ago brain produces and uses some msg naturally but not in doses it is served at some chinese places having said that i might add that in mho msg does not enhance flavor enoughf for me to miss it when i go to chinese places i order food without msg goos places will do it for you a prerequisite for such a service would be a waiter capable of understanding what you want good luck am alexander m milshteyn m d milsh cipr server mgh harvard edu cipr mgh in boston ma vox fax
sci.med	re science and methodology was homeopathy tradition in article apr ecsvax uncecs edu ccreegan ecsvax uncecs edu charles l creegan writes what about kekule s infamous derivation of the idea of benzene rings from a daydream of snakes in the fire biting their tails is this specific enough to count certainly it turns up repeatedly in basic phil of sci texts as an example of the inventive component of hypothesizing i sometimes wonder if kekule s dream wasn t just a wee bit influenced by aromatic solvent vapors heh heh neal howard xlh dod computrac inc richardson tx doh o neal cmptrc lonestar org std disclaimer my opinions are mine not computrac s let us learn to dream gentlemen and then perhaps we shall learn the truth august kekule
sci.med	re the back machine update i have a back machine and have had one since january while i have not found it to be a panacea for my back pain i think it has helped somewhat it mainly acts to stretch muscles in the back and prevent spasms associated with pain i am taking less pain medication than i was previously the folks at back technologies are very reluctant to honor their return policy they extended my warranty period rather than allow me to return the machine when after the first month or so i was not thrilled with it they encouraged me to continue to use it abeit less vigourously like i said i can t say it is a cure all but it keeps me stretched out and i am in less pain dale m webb dvm phd of the body is water the veterinary diagnostic center other keeps you from drowning university of nebraska lincoln
sci.med	re centrifuge mr blue car access digex com wrote could somebody explain to me what a centrifuge is and what it is used for i vaguely remembre it being something that spins test tubes around really fast but i cant remember why youd want to do that purely recreational they get bored sitting in that rack all the time bob i only smile when i lie you can learn more in a bar and i ll tell you why than you can in a lawyer s office were these more than just my opinions they would have cost a bit more
sci.med	re my new diet it works great in article qk v innrm lynx unm edu bhjelle carina unm edu writes gordon banks a lot to keep from going back to morbid obesity i think all of us cycle one s success depends on how large the fluctuations in the cycle are some people can cycle only pounds unfortunately i m not one of them this certainly describes my situation perfectly for me there is a constant dynamic between my tendency to eat which appears to be totally limitless and the purely conscious desire to not put on too much weight when i get too fat i just diet exercise more with varying degrees of success to take off the extra weight usually i cycle within a lb range but smaller and larger cycles occur as well i m always afraid that this method will stop working someday but usually i seem to be able to hold the weight gain in check this is one reason i have a hard time accepting the notion of some metabolic derangement associated with cycle dieting that results in long term weight gain i have been cycle dieting for at least years without seeing such a change as mentioned in adiposity only some experience weight rebound the fact that you don t doesn t prove it doesn t happen to others chuck forsberg wa kgx tektronix reed omen caf author of ymodem zmodem professional yam zcomm and dsz omen technology inc the high reliability software v nw sauvie is rd portland or
sci.med	re can men get yeast infections in article noringc fnx v netcom com noring netcom com jon noring writes in article tammy vandenboom launchpad unc edu tammy vandenboom writes here s a potentially stupid question to possibly the wrong news group but can men get yeast infections spread them what kind of symptoms similar as women s i have a yeast infection and my husband who is a natural paranoid on a good day is sure he s gonna catch it and keeps asking me what it s like i m not sure what his symptoms would be the answer is yes and no i m sure others on sci med can expand on this jon i know from personal experience that men can get yeast infections i get rather nasty ones from time to time mostly in the area of the scrotum and the base of the penis they re nowhere near as dangerous for me as for many women but goddamn does it hurt in the summertime even in the wintertime when i sweat i get really uncomfy down there the best thing i can do to keep it under control is keep my weight down and keep cool down there shorts in degree weather that kind of thing and of course some occasional sun lost boy
sci.med	cystic breast disease my mom has just been diagnosed with cystic breast disease a big relief as it was a lump that could have been cancer her doctor says she should go off caffeine and chocolate for months as well as stopping the estrogen she s been taking for menopause related reasons she s not thrilled with this i think especially because she just gave up cigarettes soon she won t have any pleasures left now i thought i d heard that cystic breasts were common and not really a health risk is this accurate if so why is she being told to make various sacrifices to treat something that s not that big of a deal thanks for any information chris black sybase com note my mailer tends to garble subject lines
sci.med	endometriosis can anyone give me more information regarding endometriosis i heard it s a very common disease among women and if anyone can provide names of a specialist surgeon in the north carolina research triangle park area raleigh durham chapel hill who is familiar with the condition i would really appreciate it thanks naomi naomi l t courter network services specialist mcnc center for communications concert network
sci.med	re migraines and scans reply to geb cs pitt edu gordon banks if you can get away without ever ordering imaging for a patient with an obviously benign headache syndrome i d like to hear what your magic is i certainly can t always avoid it unless i want to be rude i suppose i made a decision a while back that i will not be bullied into getting studies like a ct or mri when i don t think they are indicated if the patient won t accept my explanation of why i think the study would be a waste of time and money i suggest a second opinion david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire wi this is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities bertrand russell
sci.med	klonopin and pregnancy a from adwright iastate edu a a woman i know is tapering off klonopin i believe that is one of the a benzodiazopines she is taking a very minimal dose right now half a tablet a a day she is also pregnant my question is are there any known cases where a klonopin or similar drug has caused harmful effects to the fetus a how about cases where the mother took klonopin or similar substance and had a normal baby any information is appreciated she wants to get a feel for a what sort of risk she is taking she is in her first month of pregnancy klonopin according to the pdr physician s desk reference is not a proven teratogen there are isolated case reports of malformations but it is impossible to establish cause effect relationships the overwhelming majority of women that take klonopin while pregnant have normal babies slmr e mail jim zisfein factory com jim zisfein
sci.med	infant immune development question as an animal science student i know that a number of animals transfer immunoglobin to thier young through thier milk in fact a calf must have a sufficient amount of colostrum early milk within hours to effectively develop the immune system since for the first less than hours the intestines are open to the ig passage my question is does this apply to human infants to any degree thanks for your time responding matthew keeler c mizzou missouri edu
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article apr cc usu edu slyx cc usu edu writes surprise surprise different people react differently to different things one slightly off the subject case in point my brother got stung by a bee i know he is allergic to bee stings but that his reaction is severe localized swelling not anaphylactic shock i could not convince the doctors of that however because that s not written in their little rule book of course bee venom isn t a single chemical could be your brother is reacting to a different component than the one that causes anaphylactic shock in other people similarly chinese food isn t just msg there are a lot of other ingredients in it why when someone eats something with lots of ingredients they don t normally consume one of which happens to be msg do they immediately conclude that any negative reaction is to the msg i would not be surprised in the least to find out the some people have bad reactions to msg including headaches stomachaches and even vomiting i d be surprised if some of these reactions weren t due to other ingredients carl j lydick internet carl sol gps caltech edu nsi hepnet sol carl disclaimer hey i understand vaxen and vms that s what i get paid for my understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level or below so unless what i m saying is directly related to vax vms don t hold me or my organization responsible for it if it is related to vax vms you can try to hold me responsible for it but my organization had nothing to do with it
sci.med	re can men get yeast infections noring netcom com jon noring writes in article tammy vandenboom launchpad unc edu tammy vandenboom writes here s a potentially stupid question to possibly the wrong news group but can men get yeast infections spread them what kind of symptoms similar as women s i have a yeast infection and my husband who is a natural paranoid on a good day is sure he s gonna catch it and keeps asking me what it s like i m not sure what his symptoms would be the answer is yes and no i m sure others on sci med can expand on this recently someone posted an account of this unfortunately it was posted to alt tasteless so the gross details were emphasized instead of th e actual scientific facts
sci.med	re ra treatment question eulenbrg carson u washington edu julia eulenberg writes i m assuming that you mean rheumatoid arthritis ra i ve never heard of the cold treatment you mentioned i can t imagine how it would work since most of us who have rh arthr ra seem to have more problems in cold weather than in warm weather would be interested to hear more z z no obviously talking about research assistants i favor a high protein low fat diet barely adequate salary on a fixed time schedule four hours of sleep a night continuous infusion of latte unpredictable praise mixed randomly with anxiety provoking everpresent glances with lowered eyebrows unrealistic promises of rapid publication and every three months a dinner consisting of nothing but microbrewery ale and free pretzels actually mine hails from san diego and indeed has more problems in seattle in cold weather than in warm doug fitts dfitts u washington edu
sci.med	can t wear contacts after rk prk i love the faq the comment about contact lenses not being an option for any remaining correction after rk and possibly after prk is interresting why is this does anyone know for sure whether this applies to prk as well also why is it possible to get a correction in prk with involvement of only about of the corneal depth while rk is done to a depth of up to why such a difference i thought the proceedures were simmilar with the exception of a laser being the cutting tool in prk i must not be understanding all of the differences in the faq the vision was considered less clear after the surgery than with glasses alone if this is completly attributable to the intentional slight undercorrection then it can be compensated for when necessary with glasses or contacts if they can be worn afterall it is important to know if that is not the case however and some other consequence of the surgery would often interfere with clear vision the first thing that came to my mind was a fogging of the lense which glasses couldn t help would not help daniel r field aka infospunj i m just a lowly phlebe dfield oboe calpoly edu biochemistry biotechnology i m at the phlebottom california polytechnic state u of the medical totem pole
sci.med	left side pains hello to everybody i write here because i am kind of desperate for about six weeks i ve been suffering on pains in my left head side the left leg and sometimes the left arm i made many tests e g computer tomography negative lyme borreliosis negative all electrolytes in the blood in their correct range they re all o k so i should be healthy as a matter of fact i am not feeling so i was also at a neurologist s too he considered me healthy too the blood tests have shown that i have little too much of hemoglobin common range is to i unfortunately do not know about the units could these hemi sided pains be the result of this or of a also possible block of the neck muscles i have no fever and i am not feeling entirely sick but neither entirely healthy please answer by direct email on ghilardi urz unibas ch thanks for every hint nico
sci.med	re sarchoidosis hello does anybody know if sarchoidosis is a mortem desease i e if someone who tooke this desease can be kill bye this one people have died from sarcoid but usually it is not fatal and is treatable gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon hi there i m suffering from sarcoidosis at present although it s shown as a chronic rare tissue disorder it is thankfully not life threatening the very worsed thing that can happen to a non treated sufferer is glaucoma my specialists are bombarding me with prednisolone e c a cortico steriod and after four months at mg a day it s totally done away with my enlarged lymph glands so somethings happening for the good cheers nigel nigel ballard int nigel dataman demon co uk mexican food bournemouth cis radio g hoi guinness on tap united kingdom amazing and all down two wires tall skinny women two penguins are walking along an iceberg the first penguin turns to the second penguin and says it looks like you are wearing a tuxedo the second penguin turns to the first penguin and says maybe i am
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article szikopou cunews szikopou superior carleton ca steven zikopoulos writes in apr news cs brandeis edu reynold binah cc brandeis edu susan reynold w out the s writes i think the scientists are biased towards the food industry or something was the article long would anyone be interested in posting it a neuroscientist told me that msg is used as a neurotoxin that s right some labs use it to kill neurons in mice and rats vitamin a and i think vitamin d in strong enough amounts can kill the key words are dosage and exposure mechanism kenneth ng please reply to ken blue njit edu for now all this might be an elaborate simulation running in a little device sitting on someone s table j l picard st tng
sci.med	re pointer for info long shot in article zonker apr splinter coe northeastern edu regis m donovan zonker silver lcs mit edu writes this is something of a long shot but what the hell the net is full of people with strange knowledge i m looking for suggestions as to what could be causing health problems one of my relatives is having one of my cousins has had health problems for much of her life around the age of she had some gynecological problems now she s in her early mid twenties and she is going blind her eyes are not producing enough if any moisture she s been going to mass eye and ear and the doctors there have no clue what the actual cause is they have apparently tried eyedrops and such she is just about completely blind in one eye and the other is massively deteriorated sjogren s syndrome has been known to induce dryness in vaginal tissue as well as induce primary biliary cirrhosis otherwise the abdominal swelling could be due to a complication of sjogren s known as pseudolymphoma which can produce a splenomegaly enlarged spleen she should definitely see a rheumatologist since you don t mention skin disorder anemia or joint pain you d probably rule out erythema nodosum or scleroderma josh backon vms huji ac il also and this may or may not be related she is having some changes in her abdomen her stomach has swelled i m not sure if this is stomach the organ or stomach teh area of the body i guess the step they re going to take next is to do a whole battery of tests to check all the other internal systmes besides just the eyes but just because the net is a source of large amounts of bizarre knowledge i m going to ask has anyone ever heard of anything like this suggestions of things to ask about since much of my knowledge about her state comes second or third hand thanks regis zonker silver lcs mit edu
sci.med	re science and methodology was homeopathy tradition in article apr cs rochester edu fulk cs rochester edu mark fulk writes science has not historically progressed in any sort of rational experiment data theory sequence most experiments are carried out and interpreted in pre existing theoretical frameworks the theoretical controversies of the day determine which experiments get done overall there is a huge messy affair of personal jealousies crazy motivations petty hatreds and the like that determines which experiments and which computations get done what keeps it going forward is the critical function of science results don t count unless they can be replicated the whole system is a sort of mechanism for generate and test the generate part can be totally irrational as long as the test part works properly i think we agree on much however the paragraphs above seem to repeat uncritically the standard kuhn lakatos feyerabend view of progress and rationality in science since i ve addressed these issues in this newsgroup in the not too distant past i won t go into them again now what is wrong with the above observation is that it explicitly gives the impression and you may not in fact hold this view that the common perhaps even the correct approach for a scientist to follow is to sit around having flights of fancy and scheming on the basis of his jealousies and petty hatreds it further at least implicitly advances the position that sciences goes forward and it is not clear what this means given the context in which it occurs by generating in a completely non rational and even random way a plethora of hypotheses and theories that are then weeded out via the critical function of science though why this critical function should be less subject to the non rational forces is a mystery if experimental design hypotheses creation and theory construction are subject to jealousies and petty hatreds then this must be equally true of the application of any critical function concerning replication this is what leads one ala feyerabend to an anything goes view true the generation part can be totally irrational but typically it is not anecdotes concerning instances where a hypothesis seems to have resulted in some way from a dream or from one s political views simply do not generalize well to the actual history of science gary h merrill principal systems developer c compiler development sas institute inc sas campus dr cary nc sasghm theseus unx sas com mcnc sas sasghm
sci.med	re seeking advice experience with back problem in article c fi r yz cbnewsk cb att com janet m cooper jmcooper cbnewsk cb att com writes the mother of a friend of mine is experiencing a disabling back pain after mris ct scans and doctors visits she has been presented with alternatives live with the pain or undergo a somewhat risky operation which may leave her paralyzed she also has a since her symptoms are only pain she would do weel to seek the advice of a good multi disciplinary pain clinic it is distressing to think that people are stll being told they have to live with the pain when many options for pain management rather than treating mri findings are available a good pain clinic will accept that this lady s problem is her pain and set about finding ways of relieveing that don mackie his opinions um anesthesiology will disavow
sci.med	re options before back surgery for protruding disc at l l subject options before back surgery for protruding disc at l l from alex miller amiller almaden ibm com date apr gmt in article coyote uucp alex miller amiller almaden ibm com writes after two weeks of limping around with an acute pain in my low back and right leg my osteopath sent me to get an mri which revealed a protruding and extruded disc at l l i went to a neurosurgeon who prescribed prednisole a steroidal anti inflamitory and bed rest for several days it s been nearly a week and overall i feel slightly worse i take darvocet three times a day so i can deal with daily activities like preparing food and help me get to sleep i ll see the neurosurgeon tomorrow and of course i ll be asking whether or not this rest is helpful or if surgery is the next step what are my non surgical options if my goal is to resume full activity including competitive cycling i should add this condition is in my opinion the result of commulative wear and tear i ve had chronic low back pain for years but i managed you don t say whether or not you have any symptoms other than pain if you have numbness weakness or bladder problems for example these would suggest a need for surgery if pain is your only symptom you might do well to find a reputable multi disciplinary pain clinic in your area chronic low back pain generally doesn t do well with surgery acute on chronic pain as only symptom doesn t fare much better e correlation between mri findings and symptoms is controversial don mackie his opinions um will disavow
sci.med	looking for a doctor i was kind of half watching street stories last night and one of the segments was about this doctor in s f who provides a service of investigating treatment for various diseases i m pretty sure his name is dr mark renniger sp or close to that did anyone else watch this i d like to get his correct name and address phone number if possible thanks
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article apr nmr z mgh harvard edu milsh nmr z mgh harvard edu alex milshteyn writes this was known long ago brain produces and uses some msg naturally but not in doses it is served at some chinese places having said that i might add that in mho msg does not enhance flavor enoughf for me to miss it when i go to chinese places i order food without msg goos places will do it for you i just wanted to point out that some of the food particularly the soups are prepared in a big batch so the restaurant won t be able to take the msg out of it sometimes its pretty hard to find out if this is the case or not alexander m milshteyn m d milsh cipr server mgh harvard edu cipr mgh in boston ma vox fax david b considine dbc welkin gsfc nasa gov
sci.med	re can men get yeast infections in article apr galileo cc rochester edu jkis ltd uhura cc rochester edu da beave writes well folks i currently have a yeast infection i am male your best bet or at least your husband s is to treat and cure your infection before any intercourse if you must use a condom also consider other forms of sexual release ie handjobs until you are cured though i can t imagine wanting to have intercourse during a full blown yeast infection chances of it being transmitted to the male are quite low especially if he s circumcised but it can happen at one point i was getting recurrent yeast infections and the dr suspected my boyfriend might have gotten it from me and be reinfecting me the prescription was interesting for each day of the medication a week i was to insert the medication then to have intercourse the resulting action would help the medicine be spread around in me better and would simultaneously treat him
sci.med	intensive japanese at pitt in article c kxix ct cbnewsd cb att com rcj cbnewsd cb att com ray c jender writes i was kind of half watching street stories last night and one of the segments was about this doctor in s f who provides a service of investigating treatment for various diseases i m pretty sure his name is dr mark renniger sp or close to that did anyone else watch this i d like to get his correct name and address phone number if possible thanks intensive japanese at the university of pittsburgh this summer the university of pittsburgh is offering two intensive japanese language courses this summer both courses intensive elementary japanese and intensive intermediate japanese are ten week ten credit courses each equivalent to one full year of japanese language study they begin june and end august the courses meet five days per week five hours per day there is a flat rate tuition charge of per course fellowships available for science and engineering students contact steven brener program manager of the japanese science and technology management program at the university of pittsburgh at the number or address below all interested individuals are encouraged to apply this is not limited to university students new program announcement japanese science and technology management program the japanese science and technology management program jstmp is a new program jointly developed by the university of pittsbugh and carnegie mellon university students and professionals in the engineering and scientific communitites are encouraged to apply for classes commencing in june and january program objectives the program intends to promote technology transfer between japan and the united states it is also designed to let scientists engineers and managers experience how the japanese proceed with technological development this is facilitated by extended internships in japanese research facilities and laboratories that provide participants with the opportunity to develop long term professional relationships with their japanese counterparts program design to fulfill the objectives of the program participants will be required to develop advanced language capability and a deep understanding of japan and its culture correspondingly jstmp consists of three major components training in the japanese language several japanese language courses will be offered including intensive courses designed to expedite language preparation for scientists and engineers in a relatively short time education in japanese business and social culture a particular enphasis is placed on attaining a deep understanding of the cultural and educational basis of japanese management approaches in manufacturing and information technology courses will be available in a variety of departments throughout both universities including anthropology sociology history and political science moreover seminars and colloquiums will be conducted further a field trip to japanese manufacturing or research facilities in the united states will be scheduled an internship or a study mission in japan upon completion of their language and cultural training at pitt and cmu participants will have the opportunity to go to japan and observe and participate in the management of technology internships in japan will generally run for one year however shorter ones are possible fellowships covering tuition for language and culture courses as well as stipends for living expenses are available for more information and application materials contact steven brener susie brown jstmp carnegie mellon university gsia university of pittsburgh pittsburgh pa e forbes quadrangle telephone pittsburgh pa fax telephone fax interested individuals companies and institutions should respond by phone or mail please do not inquire via e mail please note that this is directed at grads and professionals however advanced undergrads will be considered further funding is resticted to us citizens and permanent residents of the us steve brener
sci.med	hypoglycemia can anyone tell me if a bloodcount of when diagnosed as hypoglycemic is dangerous i e indicates a possible pancreatic problem one dr says no the other not his specialty says the first is negligent and that another blood test should be done also what is a good diet what has worked for a hypo glycemic tia anthony anello fermilab batavia illinois
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article apr tms micro ti com david tms micro ti com david thomas writes in article apr delphi gsfc nasa gov packer delphi gsfc nasa gov charles packer writes is there such a thing as msg monosodium glutamate sensitivity i saw in the ny times sunday that scientists have testified before an fda advisory panel that complaints about msg sensitivity are superstition anybody here have experience to the contrary i m old enough to remember that the issue has come up at least a couple of times since the s then it was called the chinese restaurant syndrome because chinese cuisine has always used it so far i ve seen about a dozen posts of anecdotal evidence but no facts i suspect there is a strong psychological effect at work here does anyone have results from a scientific study using double blind trials check out just some posts before your own maybe you missed it amidst the flurry of responses yet again the use of this newsgroup is hampered by people not restricting their posts to matters they have substantial knowledge of for cites on msg look up almost anything by john w olney a toxicologist who has studied the effects of msg on the brain and on development it is undisputed in the literature that msg is an excitotoxic food additive and that its major constituent glutamate is essentially the premierie neurotransmitter in the mammalian brain humans included too much in the diet and the system gets thrown off glutamate and aspartate also an excitotoxin are necessary in small amounts and are freely available in many foods but the amounts added by industry are far above the amounts that would normally be encountered in a ny single food by eating lots of junk food packaged soups and diet soft drinks it is possible to jack your blood levels so high that anyone with a sensitivity to these compounds will suffer numerous real physi logical effects read olney s review paper in prog brain res and check his sources they are impecable there is no dispute dianne murray wcsbeau ccs carleton ca
sci.med	re science and methodology was homeopathy tradition in article c kv p jm unx sas com sasghm theseus unx sas com gary merrill writes in article apr cs rochester edu fulk cs rochester edu mark fulk writes what is wrong with the above observation is that it explicitly gives the impression and you may not in fact hold this view that the common perhaps even the correct approach for a scientist to follow is to sit around having flights of fancy and scheming on the basis of his jealousies and petty hatreds flights of fancy and other irrational approaches are common the crucial thing is not to sit around just having fantasies they aren t of any use unless they make you do some experiments i ve known a lot of scientists whose fantasies lead them on to creative work usually they won t admit out loud what the fantasy was prior to the consumption of a few beers simple example warren jelinek noticed an extremely heavy band on a dna electrophoresis gel of human alu fragments he got very excited hoping that he d seen some essential part of the control mechanism for eukaryotic genes this fantasy led him to sequence samples of the band and carry out binding assays the result was a well conserved or so bp sequence that occurs about times in the human genome unfortunately for warren s fantasy it turns out to be a transposon that is present in so many copies because it replicates itself and copies itself back into the genome on the other hand the characteristics of transposons were much elucidated the necessity of a cellular reverse transcriptase was recognized and the standard method of recognizing human dna was created other species have different sets of transposons fortunately for me warren and i used to eat dinner at t g i fridays all the time it further at least implicitly advances the position that sciences goes forward and it is not clear what this means given the context in which it occurs by generating in a completely non rational and even random way a plethora of hypotheses and theories that are then weeded out via the critical function of science i m not sure that it s random but there is no known rational mechanism for generating a rich set of interesting hypotheses if you are really working in an unknown area it is unlikely that you will have much sense of what might or might not be true under those circumstances the best thing to do is just follow whatever instincts you have if they are wrong you will find out soon enough but at least you will find out something if you try to do experiments at random with no prior conceptions at all in mind you will probably get nowhere though why this critical function should be less subject to the non rational forces is a mystery unfortunately the critical function does sometimes become hostage to non rational forces then we get varieties of pathological science lysenko mirsky s opposition to dna as gene cold fusion and so forth if experimental design hypotheses creation and theory construction are subject to jealousies and petty hatreds then this must be equally true of the application of any critical function concerning replication this is what leads one ala feyerabend to an anything goes view i don t agree that this follows in fact this is exactly the point at which i disagree with feyerabend it is a most important part of the culture of science that one keeps one s jealousies out of the refereeing process failures there are aplenty but on the whole things work out another point there are a couple of senses of the phrase experimental design i d say that the less rational part is in experimental choice not design alexander fleming proc royal soc chose to look for bacteriophage in his own mucus for strange reasons phage had previously been found in locust diarrhea fleming probably thought runny bottom runny nose what the hell it s worth a try but his method of looking for phage was well designed to detect anything phage like in fact he found lysozyme true the generation part can be totally irrational but typically it is not anecdotes concerning instances where a hypothesis seems to have resulted in some way from a dream or from one s political views simply do not generalize well to the actual history of science it is not clear to me what you mean by rational vs irrational perhaps you can give a few examples of surprising experiments that were tried out for perfectly rational reasons or interesting new theories that were first advanced from logical grounds the main examples i can think of are from modern high energy physics which is not typical of science as a whole mark a fulk university of rochester computer science department fulk cs rochester edu
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition jason chen writes now here is a new one vomiting my guess is that msg becomes the number one suspect of any problem in this case it might be just food poisoning but if you heard things about msg you may think it must be it yeah it might if you only read the part you quoted you somehow left out the part about we all ate the same thing changes things a bit eh you complain that people blame msg automatically since it s an unknown and therefore must be the cause it is equally if not more unreasonable to defend it automatically assuming that it can t be the culprit pepper makes me sneeze if it doesn t affect you the same way fine just don t tell me i m wrong for saying so these people aren t condemning chinese food mr chen just one of its optional ingredients try not to take it so personally
sci.med	re can t wear contacts after rk prk in article apr zeus calpoly edu dfield flute calpoly edu infospunj dan field writes i love the faq the comment about contact lenses not being an option for any remaining correction after rk and possibly after prk is interresting why is this does anyone know for sure whether this applies to prk as well i ve had prk i would suggest asking a doctor about contacts mine said yes to contacts i think the scars from rk would preclude contacts also why is it possible to get a correction in prk with involvement of only about of the corneal depth while rk is done to a depth of up to why such a difference i thought the proceedures were simmilar with the exception of a laser being the cutting tool in prk i must not be understanding all of the differences no rk makes radial cuts around the circumference of the cornea up to i think and these change the curvature of the cornea through stress chages prk vaporizes burns away a thin layer from the front of the cornea making the optical axis of the eye shorter the laser doesn t cut in prk it vaporizes in rk the eye is cut into in the faq the vision was considered less clear after the surgery than with glasses alone if this is completly attributable to the intentional slight undercorrection then it can be compensated for when necessary with glasses or contacts if they can be worn afterall it is important to know if that is not the case however and some other consequence of the surgery would often interfere with clear vision the first thing that came to my mind was a fogging of the lense which glasses couldn t help would not help i find my vision is more clear for some things and less clear for others only at night i notice a definite haloing at night in the darkness when i look at automobile headlamps though this is not something i spend inordinate amounts of time doing for ordinary things my vision in particular having a fully operating peripheral vision is clearer than with glasses or contacts le jojo fresh n clean speaking out to the way you want to live today american all american doing a bit so and even more so
sci.med	re science and methodology was homeopathy tradition in article c jduo k unx sas com sasghm theseus unx sas com gary merrill writes of course we can t hope currently at least to explain how or why kekule had the daydream of snakes in the fire biting their tails surely it wasn t the only daydream he had what was special about this one could it have had something to do with a perceived analogy between the geometry of the snakes and problems concerning geometry of molecules is such analogical reasoning extra scientific or is it rather at the very heart of science perice s notion of abduction the use of models within and across disciplines upon close examination is there a non rational mystical leap taking place or is it perhaps closer to a formal though often incomplete analogy or model i feel the need to repeat myself kekule s dream is a rather bad example of much of anything read root bernstein s book on the history of the benzene ring mark a fulk university of rochester computer science department fulk cs rochester edu
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article qlgdrinn b gap caltech edu carl sol gps caltech edu writes in article apr cc usu edu slyx cc usu edu writes surprise surprise different people react differently to different things one slightly off the subject case in point my brother got stung by a bee i know he is allergic to bee stings but that his reaction is severe localized swelling not anaphylactic shock i could not convince the doctors of that however because that s not written in their little rule book of course bee venom isn t a single chemical could be your brother is reacting to a different component than the one that causes anaphylactic shock in other people hmmm the last time i got stung by a bee i experienced the same reaction the first poster s brother did we went off to the doctor to see if i should worry about the fact that my foot was now about times it s normal size and itched ow he basically said i shouldn t this time but that bee sting allergy was not something you tended to get aclimatized to but were something that each time got progressively worse generally and that next time could be the time i go into anaphylactic shock admittedly this was many years ago when i was young since then i just make sure i don t get stung i also should carry a bee sting kit with me but i don t this isn t scientific or proof but this would lead me to believe it s not a different reaction just a different degree of reaction allergies work that way people have various reactions sort of like diabetes some people can get by with just monitoring their diet others have to monitor their diet and use insulin sometimes while others have to watch their diet like a hawk and use insulin regularly i think msg is probably similar some people have allergic reactions to it some people are allergic to fermented things and can t use soy sauce but the chinese have been using it for centuries that doesn t necessarily mean that it s safe for everyone johanna turner reed edu
sci.med	re chronic sinus and antibiotics in article qk inna mojo eng umd edu georgec eng umd edu george b clark writes you can also swab the inside of your nose with bacitracin using a q tip bacitracin is an antibiotic that can be bought otc as an ointment in a tube the doctor i listen to on the radio says to apply it for days while you are taking other antibiotics by mouth i have a new doctor who gave me a prescription today for something called septra ds he said it may cause gi problems and i have a sensitive stomach to begin with anybody ever taken this antibiotic any good suggestions for avoiding an upset stomach other tips phil de haan dod why yes that is my honda cl that s the nature of being an executive in america you have to rely on other people to do something you used to do yourself donald fehr executive director major league baseball players association
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition carl sol gps caltech edu carl j lydick writes of course bee venom isn t a single chemical could be your brother is reacting to a different component than the one that causes anaphylactic shock in other people similarly chinese food isn t just msg there are a lot of other ingredients in it why when someone eats something with lots of ingredients they don t normally consume one of which happens to be msg do they immediately conclude that any negative reaction is to the msg arghhhhhhhhhh read the memos i said that i personally had other people order the exact same food at two different times from the same restaurant and the people that ordered the food for me did not tell me which time the msg was in the food and which time it was not in the food one time i had a reaction one time i did not the reaction came the time the msg was in the food that was the only difference same restaurant same ingredients why when someone eats something with lots of ingredients they don t normally consume one of which happens to be msg do they immediately conclude that any negative reaction is to the msg i eat lots of chinese food i love chinese food i ve just learned the following if i get food at one of the restaurants that does not use msg or if i prepare the food myself without msg or if i order the food from a restaurant that will hold the msg and i never get soup unless it s from a restaurant that cooks without the msg i do not get a reaction okay do you understand i get a reaction from msg i do not get a reaction when there is no msg if you re having trouble understand this please tell me which of the words you do not understand and i ll look them up in the dictionary for you the great secret of successful marriage is to treat all disasters as incidents and none of the incidents as disasters harold nicholson mary allison mary uicsl csl uiuc edu urbana illinois
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article qmlgainnjab hp col col hp com cab col hp com chris best writes jason chen writes now here is a new one vomiting my guess is that msg becomes the number one suspect of any problem in this case it might be just food poisoning but if you heard things about msg you may think it must be it yeah it might if you only read the part you quoted you somehow left out the part about we all ate the same thing changes things a bit eh food poisoning is only one of the many possible causes yes even other people share the food you complain that people blame msg automatically since it s an unknown and therefore must be the cause it is equally if not more unreasonable to defend it automatically assuming that it can t be the culprit boy you computer people only know s and s but not much about logic no i did not said msg was not the culprit what i argued was that that there was enough reasonable doubt to convict msg if you want to convict msg show me the evidence not quilty by suspicion pepper makes me sneeze if it doesn t affect you the same way fine just don t tell me i m wrong for saying so nobody is forcing you to change what you believe but i certainly don t want to see somebody preach to ban pepper because that makes him her sneeze that is exactly what some anti msg activitiests are doing these people aren t condemning chinese food mr chen just one of its optional ingredients try not to take it so personally look people with a last chen don t necessarily own a chinese restaurant i am not interested if you enjoy chinese food or not exploiting my last name to discredit me on the issue is hitting below the belt what i am interested in is the truth let me give you an excert from a recent fda hearing there is no evidence orally consumed glutamate has any effect on the brain said dr richard wurtman of massachusetts institute of technology the anecdotal experiences of individuals is superstition not science he said i don t think glutamate has made them sick and dr robert kenney of george washington university conducted an double blind test in showing that the people who reacted to msg also had similar reaction when they thought they had msg but actually not although there are many contradicting personal stories told in this group some of them might have been due to other causes but because the anti msg emotion runs so high that some blame it for anything and everything my purpose is to present a balance view on the issue although i am probably outnumbered jason chen
sci.med	re can t wear contacts after rk prk in article apr zeus calpoly edu dfield flute calpoly edu infospunj dan field writes i love the faq the comment about contact lenses not being an option for any remaining correction after rk and possibly after prk is interresting why is this does anyone know for sure whether this applies to prk as well also why is it possible to get a correction in prk with involvement of only about of the corneal depth while rk is done to a depth of up to why such a difference in myopia the cornea is too curved there is too much of a bulge in the center in prk the laser removes a small amount of material from the center in rk the surgeon cuts incisions near the edge they heal and the scarring reshapes the cornea entirely different mechanisms and the action is in a different place dk
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article qmlgainnjab hp col col hp com cab col hp com chris best writes jason chen writes now here is a new one vomiting my guess is that msg becomes the number one suspect of any problem in this case it might be just food poisoning but if you heard things about msg you may think it must be it yeah it might if you only read the part you quoted you somehow left out the part about we all ate the same thing changes things a bit eh perhaps now just what leads you to believe that it was msg and not some other ingredient in the food that made you ill these people aren t condemning chinese food mr chen just one of its optional ingredients try not to take it so personally and you re condemning one particular ingredient without any evidence that that s the ingredient to which you reacted carl j lydick internet carl sol gps caltech edu nsi hepnet sol carl disclaimer hey i understand vaxen and vms that s what i get paid for my understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level or below so unless what i m saying is directly related to vax vms don t hold me or my organization responsible for it if it is related to vax vms you can try to hold me responsible for it but my organization had nothing to do with it
sci.med	prozac can anyone help me find any information on the drug prozac i am writing a report on the inventors eli lilly and co and the product i need as much help as i can get thanks a lot adriana gilmete
sci.med	need advice with doctor patient relationship problem i need advice with a situation which occurred between me and a physican which upset me i saw this doctor for a problem with recurring pain he suggested medication and a course of treatment and told me that i need to call him days after i begin the medication so that he may monitor its effectiveness as well as my general health i did exactly as he asked and made the call reaching his secretary i explained to her that i was following up at the doctor s request and that i was worried because the pain episodes were becoming more frequent and the medication did not seem effective the doctor called me back and his first words were whatever you want you d better make it quick i m very busy and don t have time to chit chat with you i told him i was simply following his instructions to call on the th day to status him and that i was feeling worse i then asked if perhaps there was a better time for us to talk when he had more time he responded just spit it out now because no time is a good time said in a raised voice i started to feel upset and tried to explain quickly what was going on with my condition but my nervousness interfered with my choice of words and i kind of stuttered and then said well never mind and he said he ll talk to various colleagues about other medications and he ll call me some other time this doctor called me that evening and said because i didn t express myself well he was confused about what i wanted at this point i was pretty upset and i told him in an amazingly polite voice considering how angry i felt that his earlier manner had hurt my feelings he told me that he just doesn t have time to rap with patients and thought that was what i wanted i told him that to assume i was calling to rap was insulting and said again that i was just following through on his orders he responded that he resented the implication that he felt i was making that he was not interested in learning about what his patients have to say about their condition status he then gave me this apology i am sorry that there was a miscommunication and you mistakenly thought i was insulting i am not trying to insult you but i am not that knowledgeable about pain and i don t have a lot of time to deal with that he then told me to call him the next day for further instructions on how do deal with my pain and medication i am still upset and have not yet called my questions should i continue to have this doctor manage my care since i am in pain off and on i realize that this may cause me to be more anxietous so am i perhaps over reacting or overly sensitive if this doctor refers me to his colleague who knows more about the type of pain i have he still wants me to status him on my condition but now i am afraid to call him marlena
sci.med	re sore throat in article sdcc ucsd edu wsun jeeves ucsd edu fiberman writes i have had a sore throat for almost a week when i look into the mirror with the aid of a flash light i see white plaques in the very back of my throat on the sides i went to a health center to have a throat culture taken they said that i do not have strep throat could a viral infection cause white plaques on the sides of my throat first i am not a doctor i know about this because i have been through it it sounds like tonsilitis lit swollen tonsils feel under your jaw hinge for a swelling on each side if you find them its tonsilitis i ve had this a couple of times in the past the doctor prescribed a weeks course of penicillin and that cleared it up in my case it was associated with glandular fever which is a viral infection which from my point of view resembled flu and tonsilitis that kept coming back for a year or so there is a blood test for this in conclusion see a doctor if you have not done so already paul paul johnson paj gec mrc co uk tel ext these ideas and others like them can be had gec marconi research is not for each from any reputable idealist responsible for my opinions
sci.med	re centrifuge in article c jsm hrs lznj lincroftnj ncr com rjf lzsc lincroftnj ncr com efw robert feddeler mt t writes could somebody explain to me what a centrifuge is and what it is used for i vaguely remembre it being something that spins test tubes around really fast but i cant remember why youd want to do that purely recreational they get bored sitting in that rack all the time no this is wrong the purpose is to preserve the substances in the tubes longer by creating relativistic speeds and thus time dilatation of course by slowing the subjective time of the test tubes they get less bored which is probably what you were thinking of david rind rind enterprise bih harvard edu
sci.med	re need advice with doctor patient relationship problem sounds as though his heart s in the right place but he is not adept at expressing it what you received was meant to be a profound apology apologies delivered by overworked shy people often come out like that michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
sci.med	post fever rashes i get em every time the subject line says it every time i run a fever i get an amazing rosy rash over my torso and arms fortunately it doesn t itch the rash always comes on the day after the fever breaks and no matter what the illness was cold flu whatever it started happening about four years ago after i moved to my current town although i don t know if that has anything to do with anything severity and persistance of the rash seems to vary with the fever a severe or long lasting fever brings a long lasting rash a mild fever seems to bring rashes that go away faster anybody know what might be causing this it s no more than an embarassment but i d be curious to know what s going on am i carrying some kind of fever resistant bug that goes wild when fever knocks out its competition jim jones
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article qkdpk k agate berkeley edu mossman cea berkeley edu amy mossman writes i had a similar reaction to chinese food but came to a completly different conclusion i ve eaten chinese food for ages and never had problems i went with some chinese malaysian friends to a swanky chinses rest and they ordered lots of stuff i had never seen before the only thing i can remember of that meal was the first course scallops served in the shell with a soy type sauce i thought well i ve only had scallops once and i was sick after but that could have been a coincidence that night as i sat on the bathroom floor sweating and emptying my stomach the hard way i decided i would never touch another scallop i may not be allergic but i don t want to take the chance i don t react to scallops but did have discomforts with clam juice served at american waterfront seafood bars i don t know whether the juice is homemade or from cans the following is my first encounter with the chinese restaurant syndrome ten years ago about an hour after having won ton soup i collapsed in a chair with my face feeling puffed up my scalp tingling my feet too weak to stand up the symptoms lasted for about minutes determined to find out the cause of my first reaction i went back to the chinese restuarant and ordered the same dish the same thing happened a quick look inside the kitchen revealed nothing out of the ordinary i ve also had a mild attack after having soup at a thai restuarant
sci.med	re science and methodology was homeopathy tradition in article apr cs rochester edu fulk cs rochester edu mark fulk writes flights of fancy and other irrational approaches are common the crucial thing is not to sit around just having fantasies they aren t of any use unless they make you do some experiments i ve known a lot of scientists whose fantasies lead them on to creative work usually they won t admit out loud what the fantasy was prior to the consumption of a few beers simple example warren jelinek noticed an extremely heavy band on a dna electrophoresis gel of human alu fragments he got very excited hoping that he d seen some essential part of the control mechanism for eukaryotic genes this fantasy led him to sequence samples of the band and carry out binding assays the result was a well conserved or so bp sequence but why do you characterize this as a flight of fancy or a fantasy while i am unfamiliar with the scientific context here it appears obvious that his speculation for lack of a better or more neutral word was at least in significant part a consequence of his knowledge of and acceptance of current theory coupled with his observations it would appear that something quite rational was going on as he attempted to fit his observation into that theory or to tailor the theory to cover the observation this does not seem like an example of what most would normally call a flight of fancy or a fantasy it is not clear to me what you mean by rational vs irrational perhaps you can give a few examples of surprising experiments that were tried out for perfectly rational reasons or interesting new theories that were first advanced from logical grounds the main examples i can think of are from modern high energy physics which is not typical of science as a whole well i think someone else in this thread was the first to use the word also extra scientific etc nor am i prepared to give a general account of rationality in terms of examples there is some danger of beginning to quibble over what a surprising experiment is what counts as surprising etc the same may be said about logical grounds my point is that quite frequently perhaps even most frequently the roots of a new theory can be traced to previously existing theories or even to previously rejected hypotheses of some other theory or domain i would offer some rather well known examples such as toricelli s puy de dome experiment done for the sake of his sea of air hypothesis was this theory and the resulting experimental test surprising well given the prior explanations of the phenomena involved it certainly must be counted as so was the theory constructed and the experiment designed out of perfectly rational grounds well there was a pretty successful and well know theory of fluids the analogy to fluids by toricelli is explicit the novelty was in thinking of air as a fluid but this was quite a novelty at the time was the theory interesting yes was it new well one could argue that it was merely the extension of an existing theory to a new domain but i think this begs certain questions we can debate that if you like gary h merrill principal systems developer c compiler development sas institute inc sas campus dr cary nc sasghm theseus unx sas com mcnc sas sasghm
sci.med	experts on penicillin look my name is noah dacumos and i am a student at san leandro high i am doing a project for my physics class and i would like some info on the discovery of penicillin its discoverer sir alexander fleming and how it helps people with many incurable bacterias also how it effects those who are allergic to it any info will be greatly appreciated noah dacumos
sci.med	re endometriosis in article apr rock concert net naomi rock concert net naomi t courter writes can anyone give me more information regarding endometriosis i heard it s a very common disease among women and if anyone can provide names naomi endometriosis is where cells that would normally be lining the uteris exist outside the uteris sometimes this causes problems often it doesn t there is generally no need to remove pockets of endometriosis unless they are causing other problems one lady i know had endometriosis in an ovary this caused her a great deal of pain another lady i know has an endometrial cyst in her abdominal wall she is not having it removed the american fertility society has information on this and they probably maintain a list of physicians in all parts of the continent that deal with endometriosis you can reach them at the american fertility society th ave south suite birmingham alabama j f
sci.med	re prozac in c l x b eis calstate edu agilmet eis calstate edu adriana gilmete writes can anyone help me find any information on the drug prozac i am writing a report on the inventors eli lilly and co and the product i need as much help as i can get thanks a lot adriana gilmete pdr and cps are good places to starts do a medline search lots of interesting debates going on remember when prozac was impicated in suicidal behaviour steve z
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article qhu s d u agate berkeley edu spp zabriskie berkeley edu steve pope writes it s worse than that there is no such thing as a double blind study on the effects of msg by virtue of the fact that msg changes the taste of food in a characteristic way that is detectable by the subject and that cannot be duplicated by a placebo common you can easily disguise to flavor of msg by putting it in a capsule then the study becomes a double blind of msg capsules against control capsules containing exactly the same contents minus the msg mark feblowitz gte laboratories inc sylvan rd waltham ma mfeblowitz gte com fax
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article apr cunews carleton ca wcsbeau alfred carleton ca opirg writes in article apr tms micro ti com david tms micro ti com david thomas writes in article apr delphi gsfc nasa gov packer delphi gsfc nasa gov charles packer writes is there such a thing as msg monosodium glutamate sensitivity i saw in the ny times sunday that scientists have testified before an fda advisory panel that complaints about msg sensitivity are superstition anybody here have experience to the contrary i m old enough to remember that the issue has come up at least a couple of times since the s then it was called the chinese restaurant syndrome because chinese cuisine has always used it so far i ve seen about a dozen posts of anecdotal evidence but no facts i suspect there is a strong psychological effect at work here does anyone have results from a scientific study using double blind trials check out just some posts before your own maybe you missed it amidst the flurry of responses yet again the use of this newsgroup is hampered by people not restricting their posts to matters they have substantial knowledge of for cites on msg look up almost anything by john w olney a toxicologist who has studied the effects of msg on the brain and on development it is undisputed in the literature that msg is an excitotoxic food additive and that its major constituent glutamate is essentially the premierie neurotransmitter in the mammalian brain humans included too much in the diet and the system gets thrown off glutamate and aspartate also an excitotoxin are necessary in small amounts and are freely available in many foods but the amounts added by industry are far above the amounts that would normally be encountered in a ny single food by eating lots of junk food packaged soups and diet soft drinks it is possible to jack your blood levels so high that anyone with a sensitivity to these compounds will suffer numerous real physi logical effects read olney s review paper in prog brain res and check his sources they are impecable there is no dispute dianne murray wcsbeau ccs carleton ca in order to excitotoxin effects of msg msg that in blood must go through blood brain barrier that i am not sure msg can go through or not in normal condition the concentration of glutamate in the cerebrospinal fluid is about um that is high enough to activate one type of glutamate receptor the nmda receptor but the question is neuron and glial cell in the brain have a lots of transport to get glutamate into neuron or glial so no one know exact concentration of glutamate is around neurons glutamate is most important neurotransmitter in the central nervous system it is involved in not only in daily life like the controling of movement it is alsoinvolved in develpoment memory and learn it is involved in logn term potentialtion that be thought is the basis of learning
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article apr cunews carleton ca wcsbeau alfred carleton ca opirg writes so far i ve seen about a dozen posts of anecdotal evidence but no facts i suspect there is a strong psychological effect at work here does anyone have results from a scientific study using double blind trials check out just some posts before your own um i hate to break this to you but article numbers are unique per site they have no meaning on other machines maybe you missed it amidst the flurry of responses you mean the responses some of which pointed to double blind tests which show no such chinese restaurant effect unique to msg it s elicited by the placebo as well yet again the use of this newsgroup is hampered by people not restricting their posts to matters they have substantial knowledge of like youself someone who can read a scientific paper and apparently come away from it with bizarrely cracked ideas which have nothing to do with the use of this substance in human nutrition for cites on msg look up almost anything by john w olney a toxicologist who has studied the effects of msg on the brain and on development it is undisputed in the literature that msg is an excitotoxic food additive no it s undisputed in the literature that glutamate is an amino acid which is an excitatory neurotransmitter there is also evidence that excessive release of glutamate may be involved in the pathology of certain conditions like stroke drowning and lou gehrig s disease just to name a few this is a completely different issue than the use of this ubiquitous amino acid in foods people are not receiving intra ventricular injections of glutamate and that its major constituent glutamate is essentially the premierie neurotransmitter in the mammalian brain humans included i don t know about premier but it s certainly an important one too much in the diet and the system gets thrown off sez you such an effect in humans has not been demonstrated in any controlled studies infant mice and other models are useful as far as they go but they re not relevant to the matter at hand which is not to say that i favor its use in things like baby food a patently ridiculous use of the additive but we have no reason to believe that msg in the diet effects humans adversely glutamate and aspartate also an excitotoxin are necessary in small amounts and are freely available in many foods but the amounts added by industry are far above the amounts that would normally be encountered in a ny single food wrong do you know how much aspartate or phenylalanine is in a soft drink milligrams worth compare that to a glass of milk do you know how much glutamate is present in most protein containing foods compared to that added by the use of msg by eating lots of junk food packaged soups and diet soft drinks it is possible to jack your blood levels so high that anyone with a sensitivity to these compounds will suffer numerous real physi logical effects notice the subtle covering of her ass here anyone with a sensitivity we re disputing the size of that class read olney s review paper in prog brain res and check his sources they are impecable there is no dispute impeccable there most certainly is a dispute steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima harvard rayssd linus m c spdcc dyer
sci.med	re chronic sinus and antibiotics in article dehp calvin edu dehp calvin edu phil de haan writes in article qk inna mojo eng umd edu georgec eng umd edu george b clark writes you can also swab the inside of your nose with bacitracin using a q tip bacitracin is an antibiotic that can be bought otc as an ointment in a tube the doctor i listen to on the radio says to apply it for days while you are taking other antibiotics by mouth i have a new doctor who gave me a prescription today for something called septra ds he said it may cause gi problems and i have a sensitive stomach to begin with anybody ever taken this antibiotic any good suggestions for avoiding an upset stomach other tips i ve taken septra my daughter has taken it many times for ear infections it works sometimes it is a sulfa drug about the only problem i found was that i m sensitive and developed a rash after nine days of a ten day course no more septra for me my doctor was remiss in not telling me to watch out for a rash i was quite in the dark and didn t realize that it could be a drug reaction no harm done though doug douglas s rand drand osf org osf motif dev snail cambridge center cambridge ma disclaimer i don t know if osf agrees with me let s vote on it amateur radio kc kj
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition packer delphi gsfc nasa gov charles packer writes is there such a thing as msg monosodium glutamate sensitivity i saw in the ny times sunday that scientists have testified before an fda advisory panel that complaints about msg sensitivity are superstition anybody here have experience to the contrary i m old enough to remember that the issue has come up at least a couple of times since the s then it was called the chinese restaurant syndrome because chinese cuisine has always used it my blood pressure soars my heart pounds and i can t get to sleep for the life of me feels about like i just drank cups of coffee i avoid it and beet sugar flavor enhancers beet powder and whatever other names it may go under basicaly i read the ingredients and if i don t know what they all are i don t buy the product msg sensitivity is definately real relativity schmelativity richard h clark my opinions are my own and lunatik watch for me on the road ought to be yours but under it s not my fault i voted perot no circumstances are they richard tis com those of my company
sci.med	re science and methodology was homeopathy tradition i agree with everything that lee lady wrote in her previous post in this thread in case this puzzles people i would like to expand on two of her comments in article c jodh ig news hawaii edu lady uhunix uhcc hawaii edu lee lady writes avoiding mistakes is certainly highly desirable however it is also widely acknowledged that perfectionism is inimicable to creativity in the extreme case a perfectionist becomes so paralyzed by all the possible mistakes he might make that he is unable to even leave the house one of the most important and difficult aspects of reasoning about empirical investigation lies in understanding the context scope and importance of the various arguments and pieces of evidence that are marshalled for a claim some errors break the back of a piece of research some leave a hole that needs to be filled in and some are trivial in their importance it is a grave mistake to confuse these past snippets from this thread i doubt if einstein used any formal methodology he also proposed numerous experiments which if performed would distinguish a universe in which special relativity holds from one in which it does not back to lee lady these are not the rules according to many who post to sci med and sci psychology according to these posters if it s not supported by carefully designed controlled studies then it s not science these posters are making the mistake that i have previously criticized of adhering to a methodological recipe a carefully designed and controlled study is neither always possible nor always important on the other hand if someone is proposing a remedy that supposedly alleviates a chronic medical problem we have enough knowledge of the errors that have plagued this kind of claim to ask for a carefully designed and controlled study to alleviate our skepticism rules such as support the hypothesis by a carefully designed and controlled study are too narrow to apply to all investigation i think that the requirements for particular reasoning to be convincing depends greatly on the kinds of mistakes that have occurred in past reasoning about the same kinds of things to reuse the previous example we know that conclusions from uncontrolled observations of the treatment of chronic medical problems are notoriously problematic russell
sci.med	amniocentesis et al is there some difference between the purposes behind amniocentesis and chorionic villi sampling they sound similar to me but are intended to detect different things thanks
sci.med	need help in steroid research i am doing a term paper on steroids actually the scientist who helped crate the drug i discovered that joseph fruton is one of the researchers who helped create anabolic steroids the only information on this person i know is he was a biochemist that did research in the s i already did research at my local libraries but i still need more information my instructor is requiring resources from the computer networks please write back concerning my subject any books articles etc will be appreciated
sci.med	need survival data on colon cancer a relative of mine was recently diagnosed with colon cancer i would like to know the best source of survival statistics for this disease when discovered at its various stages i would prefer to be directed to a recent source of this data rather than receive the data itself thank you barry rein brein jplpost jpl nasa gov no clever comment
sci.med	re science and methodology was homeopathy tradition in article c l ws jn unx sas com sasghm theseus unx sas com gary merrill writes in article apr cs rochester edu fulk cs rochester edu mark fulk writes genes this fantasy led him to sequence samples of the band and carry out binding assays the result was a well conserved or so bp sequence but why do you characterize this as a flight of fancy or a fantasy the fantasy was that he had found something of fundamental importance to one of the hot questions of the day he really had very little reason to believe it other than raw hope by fantasy i certainly don t mean velikovskian manias some other theory or domain i would offer some rather well known examples such as toricelli s puy de dome experiment done for the sake of his sea of air hypothesis i m not familiar with the history of this experiment although arguably i should be surprising well given the prior explanations of the phenomena involved it certainly be counted as so was the theory constructed and the experiment designed out of perfectly rational grounds well there was a pretty successful and well know theory of fluids the analogy to fluids by toricelli is explicit the novelty was in thinking of air as a fluid but this was quite a novelty at the time was the theory interesting yes was it new well one could argue that it was merely the extension of an existing theory to a new domain but i think this begs certain questions we can debate that if you like i think that it is enough if his contemporaries found the result surprising that s not what i d quibble about what i d like to know are toricelli s reasons for doing his experiment not the post hoc constructed reasons but the thoughts in his head as he considered the problem it may be impossible to know much about toricelli s thoughts that s too bad if it is so one of root bernstein s services to science is that he has gone rooting about in pasteur s and fleming s and other people s notes and has discovered some surprising clues about their motivations pasteur never publicly admitted his plan to create mirror image life but the dreams are right there in his notebooks finally public after many years ready for anyone to read and i and my friends often have the most ridiculous reasons for pursuing results one of my best came because i was mad at a colleague for a poorly written claim i disproved the claim of course toricelli s case may be an example of a rarety where the fantasy not only motivates the experiment but turns out to be right in the end mark mark a fulk university of rochester computer science department fulk cs rochester edu
sci.med	japanese for scientists and engineers intensive japanese at the university of pittsburgh this summer the university of pittsburgh is offering two intensive japanese language courses this summer both courses intensive elementary japanese and intensive intermediate japanese are ten week ten credit courses each equivalent to one full year of japanese language study they begin june and end august the courses meet five days per week five hours per day there is a flat rate tuition charge of per course fellowships available for science and engineering students contact steven brener program manager of the japanese science and technology management program at the university of pittsburgh at the number or address below all interested individuals are encouraged to apply this is not limited to university students new program announcement japanese science and technology management program the japanese science and technology management program jstmp is a new program jointly developed by the university of pittsbugh and carnegie mellon university students and professionals in the engineering and scientific communitites are encouraged to apply for classes commencing in june and january program objectives the program intends to promote technology transfer between japan and the united states it is also designed to let scientists engineers and managers experience how the japanese proceed with technological development this is facilitated by extended internships in japanese research facilities and laboratories that provide participants with the opportunity to develop long term professional relationships with their japanese counterparts program design to fulfill the objectives of the program participants will be required to develop advanced language capability and a deep understanding of japan and its culture correspondingly jstmp consists of three major components training in the japanese language several japanese language courses will be offered including intensive courses designed to expedite language preparation for scientists and engineers in a relatively short time education in japanese business and social culture a particular enphasis is placed on attaining a deep understanding of the cultural and educational basis of japanese management approaches in manufacturing and information technology courses will be available in a variety of departments throughout both universities including anthropology sociology history and political science moreover seminars and colloquiums will be conducted further a field trip to japanese manufacturing or research facilities in the united states will be scheduled an internship or a study mission in japan upon completion of their language and cultural training at pitt and cmu participants will have the opportunity to go to japan and observe and participate in the management of technology internships in japan will generally run for one year however shorter ones are possible fellowships covering tuition for language and culture courses as well as stipends for living expenses are available for more information and application materials contact steven brener susie brown jstmp carnegie mellon university gsia university of pittsburgh pittsburgh pa e forbes quadrangle telephone pittsburgh pa fax telephone fax interested individuals companies and institutions should respond by phone or mail please do not inquire via e mail please note that this is directed at grads and professionals however advanced undergrads will be considered further funding is resticted to us citizens and permanent residents of the us steve brener
sci.med	re endometriosis you may want to inquire about taking lupron as a medication it s supposed to be a new treatment and it s described in nov issue of j of obst and gyn lupron is taken as a monthly injection whereas other drugs such as danazol are taken daily as pills
sci.med	re eugenics in article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu gordon banks writes probably within years a new type of eugenics will be possible should we do this should we make a race of disease free long lived arnold schwartzenegger muscled supermen even if we can gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon two thoughts i think that psychologically it will be easier for the next generation to accept genetic manipulation it seems that people frown upon messing with nature ignoring our eons old practice of doing just that any new human intervention is arrogance and hubris and manipulation we routinely do is natural and certainly not a big deal most interesting human traits will probably be massively polygenetic and be full of trade offs in addition without a positive social environment for the cultivation of genetic gifts having them won t be the advantage it s made out to be some people will certainly pursue it as if it is the grail but we know how most of those quests turn out chris schaeffer
sci.med	re food related seizures in article paulson apr cmb larc nasa gov paulson tab larc nasa gov sharon paulson writes i am posting to this group in hopes of finding someone out there in network newsland who has heard of something similar to what i am going to describe here i have a fourteen year old daugter who experienced a seizure on november at am after eating kellog s frosted flakes she is perfectly healthy had never experienced anything like this before and there is no history of seizures in either side of the family all the tests eeg mri ekg came out negative so the decision was made to do nothing and just wait to see if it happened again well we were going along fine and the other morning april she had a bowl of another kellog s frosted kind of cereal fruit loops i am embarrassed to admit that i even bought that junk but every once in a while so i pour it in her bowl and think oh oh this is the same kind of junk she was eating when she had that seizure ten minutes later she had a full blown seizures this was her first exposure to a sugar coated cereal since the last seizure my daughter has epilepsy and i attend a monthly parent support group just wednesday night a mother was telling how she decided to throw all the junk food out and see if it made a difference in her year old s seizures he was having about one seizure per week she reported that she did this on thursday he had a seizure on saturday and then went weeks without a seizure on easter he went to grandma s and ate candy pop anything he wanted he had a seizure the next day she sees sensitivity to nutrasweet sugar colors caffine and corn with corn she says he gets very nervous and aggresive with my own daughter age i think she is also sensitive and stays away from those foods on her own she has never had gum won t eat candy prefers an apple to a cookie doesn t like chocolate and won t even use toothpaste her brother on the other hand is a junk food addict hope this helps good luck
sci.med	bouncing lymenet newsletters the following addresses are on the lymenet mailing list but are rejecting mail since the list server originally accepted these addresses successfully i assume these addresses have since been eliminated improperly functioning mail gateways might also be responsible if you are listed here and would still like to remain on the list please write to me otherwise i will remove these addresses from the list before the next newsletter goes out as a general rule please remember to unsubscribe from all your mailing lists before your account is closed this will save the listserv maintainer from many headaches lezliel sitka sun com kenneth r hall roch xerox com westmx ayoub uunet uu net absol absol com rsb panix com marc c gabriel u c box lehigh university
sci.med	miracle berries anyone from kalat j w biological psychology wadsworth publishing co belmont ca pg reproduced without permission digression miracle berries and the modification of taste receptors although the miracle berry a plant native to west africa is practically tasteless it temporarily changes the taste of other substances miracle berries contain a protein miraculin that modifies sweet receptors in such a way that they can be stimulated by acids bartoshuk gentile moskowitz meiselman if you ever get a chance to chew a miracle berry and i do recommend it for about the next half an hour all acids which are normally sour will taste sweet they will continue to taste sour as well miraculin was for a time commercially available in the united states as a diet aid the idea was that dieters could coat their tongue with a miraculin pill and then eat and drink unsweetened slightly acidic substances such substances would taste sweet without providing many calories a colleague and i once spent an evening experimenting with miracle berries we drank straight lemon juice sauerkraut juice even vinegar all tasted extremely sweet somehow we forgot how acidic these substances are we awoke the next day to find our mouths full of ulcers continued discussion of a couple other taste altering substances refs bartoshuk l m gentile r l moskowitz h r meiselman h l sweet taste induced by miracle fruit synsephalum dulcificum physiology behavior anyone ever hear of these things or know where to get them marc andersom spot colorado edu
sci.med	panic disorder more success stories i posted this to sci psychology on april and after seeing your post here on panice disorder thought it would be relevant my research indicates that two schools of thought exist the literature promoting medication says it s the superior treatment not surprisingly literature promoting cognitive therapy also claims to be superior what are the facts early in my research i didn t have a bias towards either medication or cognitive therapy i was interested in a treatment that worked after reading journals published after the cognitive therapy camp claims a higher success rate approx a lower drop out rate and no side effects associated with medication lars goran ost published an excellent article titled applied relaxation description of a coping technique and a review of controlled studies this is from behav res ther vol no pp the article provides instructions on how to perform applied relaxation ar briefly you start with two minute sessions daily and progress in weeks to performing thirty second sessions daily i ll snail mail this article to anyone interested usa only please international please pay for postage mark vonwaadn kuhub cc ukans edu
sci.med	re food related seizures i m told that corn allergy is fairly common my wife has it and it seems to be exacerbated if sugar is eaten with the corn i suppose that in a person just on the verge of having epilepsy an allergic reaction might cause a seizure but i don t really know gordon michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
sci.med	post polio syndrome information needed please my wife has become interested through an acquaintance in post polio syndrome this apparently is not recognised in new zealand and different symptons eg chest complaints are treated separately does anone have any information on it thanks keith
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition carl lydick and you re condemning one particular ingredient without any evidence that that s the ingredient to which you reacted believe what you will the mass of anectdotal evidence combined with the lack of a properly constructed scientific experiment disproving the hypothesis makes the msg reaction hypothesis the most likely explanation for events steve
sci.med	re hepatitis b in article apr dosgate russell sinclair day canrem com russell sinclair day writes what we are really worried about is not knowing the facts the doctor has stated that things will not be good if she is a carrier and avoids further questions on the subject we really would like to know so we can take steps and plan in advance for any eventualities thank you for your very informative post right now i am just trying to find out everything that i can russ unfortunately hep b infection can eventuate in chronic hepatitis and subsequent cirrhosis although not many patients with hep b go on to chronic hepatitis it does still occur in a good number and is something to keep in mind hepatitis c was non a non b hep much more frequently leads to chronic hep and cirrhosis there is also an autimmune chronic hepatitis that affects mostly younger women which also leads to cirrhosis of course cirrhosis is a most unkind disease the most dangerous effects relate to portal hypertension and loss of liver function patients develop life threatening variceal bleeds and hepatic comas among many other problems as a result of disturbances in hepatic circulation less ominously they can exhibit the effects of hyperestrogenemia which often characterize patients with cirrhosis these effects include telangiactasias small red skin lesions and in men gynecomastia breast development the only real treatment for cirrhosis is liver transplant keep in mind that cirrhosis is not expected at least statistically in your friend s case nevertheless you might want to bring up the subject of chronic disease and cirrhosis with the doctor hopefully he or she can then carefully explain these sequelae of hep b infection to you and offer you support simon
sci.med	food related seizures sp from paulson tab larc nasa gov sharon paulson sp to describe here i have a fourteen year old daugter who experienced sp a seizure on november at am after eating kellog s frosted sp flakes sp well we were going along fine and the other morning april she had sp a bowl of another kellog s frosted kind of cereal fruit loops i am sp when i mentioned what she ate the first time as a possible reason for sp the seizure the neurologist basically negated that as an idea now sp after this second episode so similar in nature to the first even sp he is scratching his head there s no data that sugar coated cereals cause seizures i haven t even seen anything anecdotal on it given how common they are eaten do you know any child or adolescent who doesn t eat the stuff i think that if there were a relationship we would know it by now also there s nothing weird in those cereals as far as the brain is concerned except for a few infantile metabolic disorders such as galactosemia sugar is sugar regardless if it is coated on cereal sprinkled onto cereal or dissolved in soda coffee or whatever there was some interest a few years ago in aspartame lowering seizure thresholds but i don t believe anything ever came of it slmr e mail jim zisfein factory com jim zisfein
sci.med	re could this be a migraine gb from geb cs pitt edu gordon banks gb the hmo would stop the over ordering but in hmos tests are gb under ordered that s a somewhat overbroad statement i m sure there are hmos in which the fees for lab tests are subtracted from the doctor s income in most however including the one i work for there is no direct incentive to under order profits of the group are shared among all partners but the group is so large that an individual s generated costs have a miniscule effect i don t believe that we under order then again i m not really sure what the right amount of ordering is or should be relative to the average british neurologist i suspect that i rather drastically over order slmr e mail jim zisfein factory com jim zisfein
sci.med	re need advice with doctor patient relationship problem i d dump him rude is rude and it seems he enjoys belittling and humiliating you but don t just dump him write to him and tell him why you are firing him if you can think about sending a copy of your letter to whoever is in charge of the clinic where he works if applicable or maybe even to the ama don t be vindictive in your letter be truthful but very firm but don t be a victim and just put up with it take control it ll make you feel great nancy m nancy p milligan npm netcom com or npm dale cts com
sci.med	re homeopathy a respectable medical tradition in article c hlbu i a tripos com homer tripos com webster homer writes mhollowa ic sunysb edu michael holloway writes here s your error i really do think this shows some confusion on your part drum roll please science isn t so much the gathering of evidence to support an assertion read hypothesis as it is the gathering of empirical observations in order to make an hypothesis what should convince you or not shouldn t be the final product so much as how the product was made here s your error there is no observation or hypothesis that is not tainted by theory i have a theory i make observations those observations will be made with my theory in mind yes absolutely though i d make the observation in a more general sense of all observations are made by human beings and therefore made with various biases but here your message leaves talk of hypothesis and gets back once again to equating the business of science with the end result the gizmo produced science works very well at developing theories within paradigms but is very poor at dealing with paradigm shifts if i develop a novel paradigm that explains homeopathy chinese medicine or spontaneous combustion if the paradigm is useful it will show me the way to make observations that prove or disprove it my point isn t so much whether or not you have a novel paradigm but how you come about developing it the paradigm of modern medicine is that the body can be reduced to a set of essentially mechanical operations wherein disease is seen as malfunctions in the machinery essentially the old newtonian model of the world it seems likely that theories based upon this paradigm do not give a complete discription of the universe medicine healing etc indeed we now recognize an important psychological component to healing perhaps you d admit that this is an oversimplification on your part the topic of the philosophy of science is made for them i m making them too but i think that it also summarizes popular misconceptions of science and the business of doing science biomedical research doesn t make any basic assumptions that aren t the same as any other discipline of scientific research that is that you make empirical observations form an hypothesis and test it modern medicine has much more to do with biochemistry than the old newtonian model of the world and i doubt that many psychologists would appreciate being put outside this empirical world view psychology also has more to do with biochemistry than spoon bending it is also important to distinguish reason from science science may be reasonable but so are many non scientific methodologies aristotle reasoned that frogs came from mud by observing one hop out of a puddle oversimplified of course but a good example this is an empirical observa tion it was then tested though perhaps not by aristotle and eventually found wanting in the meantime some folk will have continued to believe in the spontaneous generation of animal life there s nothing at all surprising about this it s the way the gathering of knowledge works there are probably more than a few things in my own discipline of molecular biology that will be found to be totally off base even idiotic to someone in the future these future people won t have come to these relevations because they had suddenly gone all zen like and had a vision in an lsd trip someone will have thought of something new and tested it this is the bit that people who seem to relish misrepresenting science and research can t seem to wrap their minds around science is a creative process what i think of as factual and good research can be totally turned on its head tommorrow by new results and theories again i think it gets down to defining what you mean by science i often don t recognize what it is that i do and am involved in in the way science is portrayed by popular media or writings of people in the humanities they portray science as a collection of immutable facts pronouncements of truth in big gold letters that s silly its as though we just go into the lab turn over a stone and come up with a mechanism for transcriptional regula tion its much more interesting than that it really is a very human process
sci.med	re organ donation and transplantation fact sheet in a previous article dougb comm mot com doug bank says in article apr sbcs sunysb edu mhollowa ic sunysb edu organ donors are healthy people who have died suddenly usually through accident or head injury they are brain dead the organs are kept alive through mechanical means ok so how do you define healthy people my wife cannot donate blood because she has been to a malarial region in the past three years in fact she tried to have her bone marrow typed and they wouldn t even do that why i can t donate blood either because not only have i been to a malarial region but i have also been diagnosed and surgically treated for testicular cancer the blood bank wont accept blood from me for years obviously it wouldn t be of much help to treat one problem by knowingly introducing another cancer mestastizes my imperfect understanding of the facts are that gonadal cancer is particularly dangerous in this regard i haven t done the research on it but i don t recall ever hearing of a case of cancer being transmitted by a blood transfusion probably just a common sense kind of arbitrary precaution transmissable diseases like malaria though are obviously another story michael holloway e mail mhollowa ccmail sunysb edu mail to freenet is forwarded phone
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article apr ohsu edu tong ohsu edu gong tong writes in article apr cunews carleton ca wcsbeau alfred carleton ca opirg writes for cites on msg look up almost anything by john w olney a toxicologist who has studied the effects of msg on the brain and on development it is undisputed in the literature that msg is an excitotoxic food additive and that its major constituent glutamate is essentially the premierie neurotransmitter in the mammalian brain humans included too much in the diet and the system gets thrown off glutamate and aspartate also an excitotoxin are necessary in small amounts and are freely available in many foods but the amounts added by industry are far above the amounts that would normally be encountered in a ny single food by eating lots of junk food packaged soups and diet soft drinks it is possible to jack your blood levels so high that anyone with a sensitivity to these compounds will suffer numerous real physi logical effects read olney s review paper in prog brain res and check his sources they are impecable there is no dispute dianne murray wcsbeau ccs carleton ca in order to excitotoxin effects of msg msg that in blood must go through blood brain barrier that i am not sure msg can go through or not elevated levels of glu and asp in the blood are able to bypass the blood brain barrier through the circumventricular organs or cvo in particular the adeno and neurohypophysis pituitary gland areas the arcuate nucleus of the hypothalamus and the median eminence regions are particularly effected cvo areas are not subject to the blood brain barrier these areas control the release of gonadotropin which controls the release and flux of steroids governing development especially sexual development changes in adult rats which are less sensitive to glu than humans have been observed after ingesting glu on a chronic basis cycles of several steroids are disrupted blood levels of somatostatin are significantly reduced and cyclic release of steroids becomes flattened hope this helps dianne murray wcsbeau ccs carleton ca
sci.med	friend needs advice a friend of mine is having some symptoms and has asked me to post the following information a few weeks ago she noticed that some of her hair was starting to fall out she would touch her head and strands of hair would just fall right out by the way she is or years old it continued to occur until she had a bald spot about the size of a half dollar since that time she has gotten two more bald spots of the same size other symptoms she s described include several months of an irregular menstrual cycle which is strange for her because she has always been extremely regular laryngitis every few days she will wake up one morning and have almost no voice and then the next day it s fine dizzy spells she claims that she s had or very bad dizzy spells early in the morning including one that knocked her to the ground and general fatigue she went to a dermatologist first who couldn t find any reason for the symptoms and sent her to an internist who suspected thyroid problems he did the blood work and claims that everything came back normal she s very concerned and very confused does anyone have any ideas or suggestions i told her that i thought she should see an endocrinologist does that sound like the right idea by the way in case you are going to ask no she has recently taken any medications that would cause these symptoms no she hasn t recently changed her hair products and she hasn t gotten a perm coloring or other chemical process that might cause hair to fall out thanks in advance for any help
sci.med	eumemics was eugenics probably within years a new type of eugenics will be possible maybe even sooner we are now mapping the human genome we will then start to work on manipulation of that genome using genetic engineering we will be able to insert whatever genes we want no breeding no hybrids etc the ethical question is should we do this should we make a race of disease free long lived arnold schwartzenegger muscled supermen even if we can probably within years it will be possible to disassemble and re assemble our bodies at the molecular level not only will flawless cosmetic surgery be possible but flawless cosmetic psychosurgery what will it be like to store all the prices of shelf priced bar coded goods in your head and catch all the errors they make in the store s favor at safeway what will it be like to mentally edit and spell check your responses to the questions posed by a phone caller selling vacation time share options indeed we are today a nation at risk the threat is not from bad genes but bad memes memes are the basic units of culture as opposed to genes which are the units of genetics we stand on the brink of new meme amplification technologies harmful memes which formerly were restricted in their destructive power will run rampant over the countryside laying waste to the real benefits that future technology has to offer for example jeremy rifkin has been busy trying to whip up emotions against the new genetically engineered tomatoes under development at calgene this guy is inventing harmful memes a virtual memetic typhoid mary we must expand the public health laws to include quarantine of people with harmful memes they should not be allowed to infect other people with their memes against genetically engineered food electromagnetic fields and the space shuttle solid rocket boosters
sci.med	re need advice with doctor patient relationship problem reply to mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington sounds as though his heart s in the right place but he is not adept at expressing it what you received was meant to be a profound apology apologies delivered by overworked shy people often come out like that the guy didn t sound too shy to me he sounded like a jerk i say ditch him for someone more knowledgeable and empathetic david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire wi this is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities bertrand russell
sci.med	re science and methodology was homeopathy tradition in article c jodh ig news hawaii edu lady uhunix uhcc hawaii edu lee lady writes furthermore the big bucks approach to science promotes what i think is one of the most significant errors in science choosing to investigate questions because they can be readily handled by the currently fashionable methodology or because one can readily get institutional or corporate sponsorship for them instead of directing attention to those questions which seem to have fundamental significance shades of james watson that s exactly the way many workers have described their misgivings about the human genome project if you take a rigid definition of scientific research the mere accumulation of data is not doing science one of the early arguments against the project were that the resources would be better used to focus on specific genetics related problems rather than just going off and collecting maps and sequence the project can t be so narrowly defined or easily described now though
sci.med	lasers for dermatologists having had limited tinea pedis for more than years and finding it resistant to all creams and powders i have tried i wonder why dermatologists do not use lasers to destroy the fungus it would seem likely to be effective and inexpensive are there good reasons for not using lasers i was told that dermatology had not yet reached the laser age john mckay vax concordia ca deep ideas are simple odd groups are even even simples are not
sci.med	h e l p m e desperate with some vd i have bad luck and got a vd called granuloma ingunale which involves the growth of granules in the groin i found out about it by checking medicine books and i found the prescriptions and i know i can just go to a clinic to get it cured but unfortunately i am serving my duty in the army right now and i think it s impossible to prevent anyone from knowing this if i take leaves every day for two weeks for treatment thus i bought the prescribed tablets at some drugstore but to cure it i must get injection of streptomycin with a dose of g every hours for at least days i can probably buy the tools and this solution somewhere but i don t know how to do injection by myself can any kind people here tell me if it s possible to do it can i do it on my arm or it must be done on the hip only any info is welcome and please write me or post your help soon i am already taking the tablets and i can t wait please don t flame me for posting this and don t judge me i ve learned a lesson and all i need now is real medical help desperate from taipei
sci.med	selective placebo from romdas uclink berkeley edu ella i baff writes jb rr i don t doubt that the placebo effect is alive and well with jb rr every medical modality estimated by some to be around jb rr but why would it be higher with alternative versus conventional jb rr medicine jb jb because most the the time closer to in my experience there is no jb substance to the alternative intervention beyond the good intentions of the jb practitioner which in itself is quite therapeutic jb jb john badanes dc ca jb romdas uclink berkeley edu well if that s the case in your practice i have a hard time figuring out how you even managed to make it into the bottom half of your class or did you create your diplomas with crayons if someone runs a medical practice with only a success rate they either tackle problems for which they are not qualified to treat or they have no conscience and are only in business for fraudulent purposes otoh who are we kidding the new england medical journal in ran the heading ninety percent of diseases are not treatable by drugs or surgery which has been echoed by several other reports no wonder mds are not amused with alternative medicine since the magic of the placebo effect would award alternative practitioners twice the success rate of conventional medicine ron rosereader p purranoia the fear your cat is up to something rosemail usenet rose media hamilton
sci.med	scientific yawn gordon rubenfeld responds to ron roth gr ron roth rose com ron roth wrote gr gr rr well gordon i look at the results not at anyone s scientific gr rr stamp of approval gr gr if you and your patients followers are convinced as you ve written gr by your methods of uncontrolled undocumented unreported unsubstantiated gr subjective endpoint research great but why should the rest of us care gordon even if you are trying to beat this issue to death you ll never get more than a stalemate out of this one i have never tried to force my type of medicine on any of you why should i my patients are happy i m happy you and your peers seem to be the only miserable ones around bemoaning the steady loss of patients to the alternative camp just look at europe there has been a steady exodus from synthetic medicine for over a decade now and it ll be just a matter of time before more people on this continent will abandon their drug and white coat worship as well and visit different doctors for different needs gr you see ron the point isn t whether you and your patients are gr convinced that whatever it is you do works it s whether what you do is gr more effective in similar cases of whatever it is you think you are gr treating than cupping bloodletting and placebo this is very interesting i have come exactly to the same conclusions but in regards to conventional medicine you see i don t just treat little old ladies that wouldn t know any different of what is being done but a bulk of my patients consist of teachers lawyers judges nurses accountants university graduates and various health practitioners if these people have gotten results with my method after having been unsuccessful with yours or their own i certainly wouldn t lose any sleep over whether you or your peers approve of my treatments let s face it with all the blunders committed by scientific mds over the years i know a lot of people who hold your scientific method in much lower esteem than they hold mine gr as far as we know ayurveda crystals homeopathy ron roth gr which may all equal placebo administered with appropriate gr trappings sorry but i m not familiar or interested with what appears to be new age medicine ayurveda crystals with the exception of homeo pathy of which i took a course but gordon you already knew that you just wanted to make my system look a bit more far out right i use homeopathy very little since my cellular test emr is hard to beat for accuracy and minerals are more predictable while homeopathy does have a problem with reliability especially in acute conditions an exception perhaps are homeopathic nosodes which act fairly quickly and are more dependable in certain viral or bacterial situations gr my colleagues and i spend hours debating study design gr and results even of therapies currently accepted as standard gr as good well adequate scientists we are prepared if gr presented with appropriate data to abandon our most deeply held gr beliefs in favor of new ideas i have met the challenges of hundreds of sceptics by verifying the accuracy of measuring their mineral status to their total satisfac tion in other words everyone involved is happy if you were to cook a meal would you worry over whether everyone in this world would find it to their liking or only those that end up eating it since i have financed every research project that i have undertaken entirely myself i don t need to follow any of your rules or guide lines to satisfy any aspects of a grant application which you may have to neither am i concerned of whether or not my study designs meet your or anyone else s criteria or acceptance gr sorry ron if conviction were the ruler of truth a flat earth would gr still be the center of the universe and epilepsy a curse of the gods i think there would be more justification for an uneducated person growing up in an uncivilized environment to believe in a flat earth than for a civilized well educated and scientifically trained mind to follow the doctrine of evolution genetic engineering of course is now the final frontier to show god how it is properly done now we ve become capable of creating our own paradise and give disease and god the boot right but just before we get rid of him for good perhaps he could leave us some pointers on how to solve a couple of tiny problems such as war poverty racism crime riots substance abuse and one last thing could he also give us a hint on how to control natural disasters the weather and last but not least peace ron rosereader p the lab called your brain is ready rosemail usenet rose media hamilton
sci.med	selective placebo t russell turpin responds to article by ron roth t t r i don t doubt that the placebo effect is alive and well with t r every medical modality estimated by some to be around t r but why would it be higher with alternative versus conventional t r medicine t t how do you know that it is if you could show this by careful t measurement i suspect you would have a paper worthy of publication t in a variety of medical journals t t russell if you notice the question mark at the end of the sentence i was addressing that very question to that person who has a dog named sugar and a few other people who seem to be of the same opinion i would love to have anyone come up with a study to support their claims that the placebo effect is more prevalent with alternative compared to conventional medicine perhaps the study could also include how patients respond if they are dissatisfied with a conventional versus an alternative doctor i e which practitioner is more likely to get punched in the face when the success of the treatment doesn t meet the expectations of the patient ron rosereader p when in doubt make it sound convincing rosemail usenet rose media hamilton
sci.med	re eumemics was eugenics cross posted and with followups directed to talk politics theory in article cup portal com mmm cup portal com mark robert thorson writes indeed we are today a nation at risk the threat is not from bad genes but bad memes memes are the basic units of culture as opposed to genes which are the units of genetics we must expand the public health laws to include quarantine of people with harmful memes in other words we should jail people who say the wrong things in this advocacy we can see a truly ugly meme does mark robert thorson advocate jailing himself russell
sci.med	re h e l p m e desperate with some vd in article apr debbie cc nctu edu tw mjliu csie nctu edu tw ming zhou liu writes i have bad luck and got a vd called granuloma ingunale which involves the growth of granules in the groin i found out about it by checking medicine books and i found the prescriptions ming zhou liu s main problem is that he has an incompetent physician himself this physician has diagnosed a problem even though he probably has never seen the diagnosed disease before and has no idea of what kinds of problems can present similar symptoms this physician now wants to treat his first case of this disease without any help from the medical community the best thing ming zhou liu could do is fire his current physician and seek out a better one russell
sci.med	barbecued foods and health risk some recent postings remind me that i had read about risks associated with the barbecuing of foods namely that carcinogens are generated is this a valid concern if so is it a function of the smoke or the elevated temperatures is it a function of the cooking elements wood or charcoal vs lava rocks i wish to know more thanks
sci.med	re post polio syndrome information needed please reply to keith actrix gen nz keith stewart my wife has become interested through an acquaintance in post polio syndrome this apparently is not recognised in new zealand and different symptons eg chest complaints are treated separately does anone have any information on it it would help if you and anyone else asking for medical information on some subject could ask specific questions as no one is likely to type in a textbook chapter covering all aspects of the subject if you are looking for a comprehensive review ask your local hospital librarian most are happy to help with a request of this sort briefly this is a condition in which patients who have significant residual weakness from childhood polio notice progression of the weakness as they get older one theory is that the remaining motor neurons have to work harder and so die sooner david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire wi this is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities bertrand russell
sci.med	re how about a crash program in basic immunological research in article c gk wuvmd wustl edu c gk wuvmd gary kronk writes i have been contemplating this idea for some time as well i am not a doctor but my wife is a nurse and i know a lot of doctors and nurses the point here being that doctors and nurses do not seem to get sick nearly as much as people outside the medical profession this is a lovely area for anecdotes but i am sure you are on to something as a physician i almost never get sick usually when something horrendous is going around i either don t get it at all or get a very mild case when i do get really sick it is always something unusual this was not the situation when i was in medical school particularly on pediatrics i never had younger siblings myself and when i went on the pediatric wards i suddenly found myself confronting all sorts of infectious challenges that my body was not ready for pediatrics for me was three solid months of illness and i had a temp of when i took the final exam i think what happens is that during training and beyond we are constantly exposed to new things and we have the usual reactions to them so that later on when challenged with something it is more likely a re exposure for us so we deal with it well and get a mild illness i don t think it is that the immune system is hyped up in any way also don t forget that the hospital flora is very different from the home and we carry a lot of that around km
sci.med	re science and methodology was homeopathy tradition in article apr cs rochester edu fulk cs rochester edu mark fulk writes in article c kv p jm unx sas com sasghm theseus unx sas com gary merrill writes in article apr cs rochester edu fulk cs rochester edu mark fulk writes what is wrong with the above observation is that it explicitly gives the impression and you may not in fact hold this view that the common perhaps even the correct approach for a scientist to follow is to sit around having flights of fancy and scheming on the basis of his jealousies and petty hatreds flights of fancy and other irrational approaches are common the crucial thing is not to sit around just having fantasies they aren t of any use unless they make you do some experiments i ve known a lot of scientists whose fantasies lead them on to creative work usually they won t admit out loud what the fantasy was prior to the consumption of a few beers the danger in philosophizing about science is that theory and generalization can end up being far removed from the actual day to day of the grunt at the bench yes its great to be involved in a process were i can walk into the lab after a heavy night of dreaming and just do something for the hell of it as long as my advisor doesn t catch me which is easy enough to do but stamping out such behavior seems to be the purpose in life of grant review committees and the peer review process in general in today s world that s what determines what science is what gets funded and a damn good thing to flights of fantasy just don t have much chance of producing anything at least not in biomedical research the surest way for a graduate student to ruin their life is to work in a lab where the boss is more concerned with fleshing out his her fantasies than with having the student work on a project that actually has a good chance of producing some results md s seem to be particularly prone to this aberrant behavior simple example warren jelinek noticed an extremely heavy band on a dna electrophoresis gel of human alu fragments he got very excited hoping that he d seen some essential part of the control mechanism for eukaryotic genes this fantasy led him to sequence samples of the band and carry out binding assays the result was a well conserved or so bp sequence that occurs about times in the human genome unfortunately for warren s fantasy it turns out to be a transposon that is present in so many copies because it replicates itself and copies itself back into the genome on the other hand the characteristics of transposons were much elucidated the necessity of a cellular reverse transcriptase was recognized and the standard method of recognizing human dna was created other species have different sets of transposons fortunately for me warren and i used to eat dinner at t g i fridays all the time i have to agree with gary merrill s response to this i ve read alot of the alu and middle repetitive sequence work and it s really very interesting good work with implications for many fields in molecular genetics it s really an example of how a well reasoned project turned up interesting results that were unexpected mike
sci.med	re lyme vaccine kathleen richards kilty ucrengr wrote my nearly year old pomeranian had a nasty reaction to this vaccination suffice it to say we will not vaccinate her for lyme disease again she s been camping through some states and has backpacked with us as well and we are used to watching for ticks and dealing with them and we simply won t take her to really active lyme disease areas not to drag this out anymore but many veterinarians feel that lyme disease in dogs is so easy to treat that in an endemic area they often just give the appropriate antibiotics to dogs presenting with lameness swollen joints fever a recent paper march has finally established that lyme disease in dogs can be reproduced in a controlled experimentaly setting this has been an ellusive matter for researchers and is one of the fundamental requirements for many to acknowledge an agent as being causitive of a particular disease up to now only the vaccine manufacturer has been able to prove that the disease exists this paper is noteworthy in two other regards none of the animals they infected were treated in any way the dogs had episodes of lameness during a week period which occurred months after exposure after this period none showed any further clinical signs up to the month observation period of the study so these are proven clinically sick lyme patients showing spontaneous recovery without the benefit of drug treatment of course observations longer than months will be necessary to be sure the disease doesn t have the same chronicity that some see in humans the addendum to the paper calls into question the techniques used by the vaccine manufacturer to validate the vaccine of course they want the world to use the model they developed in order to test vaccine efficacy anyway maybe we will see some independent scientifically sound evaluations of this vaccine in the next year or so jeff parke jeffp pgavin vetmed wsu edu also jeffp wsuvm bitnet aol jeffparke washington state university college of veterinary medicine class of pullman wa
sci.med	re my new diet it works great in article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu gordon banks writes keith is the only person i have ever heard of that keeps the weight off without any conscious effort to control eating behavior most of us have to diet a lot to keep from going back to morbid obesity i attribute my success to several factors very low fat except when someone else has cooked a meal for me i only eat fruit vegetables and whole grain or bran cereals i estimate i only get about to percent of my calories from fat very little sugar or salt very high fiber most americans get about grams to are recommended i get between and sometimes i ve heard of people taking fiber pills it seems unlikely that pills can contain enough fiber to make a difference it would be about as likely as someone getting fat by popping fat pills tablets are just too small unless you snarf down hundreds of them daily my clean your plate conditioning works for me eating the last takes half my eating time and gives satiety a chance to catch up so i don t still feel hungry and go start eating something else i don t eat when i m not hungry unless i m sure i ll get hungry shortly and eating won t be practical then i bike to work miles a day year round fast i also bike to stores movies and everywhere else as i ve never owned a car i estimate this burns about calories a day it also helps build and maintain muscle mass prevent insulin resistance diabetes runs in my family and increase my metabolism even so my metabolism is so low that when i m at rest i m most comfortable with a temperature in the s f and usually wear a sweater if it drops to cycling also motivates me to avoid every excess ounce cyclists routinely pay a premium for cycling products that weigh slightly less than others but it s easier and cheaper to trim weight from the rider than from the vehicle there s no question in my mind that my metabolism is radically different from that of most people who have never been fat fortunately it isn t different in a way that precludes excellent health obviously i can t swear that every obese person who does what i ve done will have the success i did but i ve never yet heard of one who did try it and didn t succeed i think all of us cycle one s success depends on how large the fluctuations in the cycle are some people can cycle only pounds i m sure everyone s weight cycles whether or not they ve ever been fat i usually eat extremely little salt when i do eat something salty my weight can increase overnight by as much as ten pounds it comes off again over a week or two keith lynch kfl access digex com f p s q x f f q f f p q s q p f w q p x
sci.med	re emphysema question thanks to all who replied to my initial question i ve been away in new jersey all week and was surprised to see all the responses when i got back to the person asking about nicotine patches there are four on the market habitrol ciba pharmaceuticals nicoderm marion merill dow alza made nicotrol warner lambert cygnus made prostep made by elan and marketed by
sci.med	re food related seizures i remember hearing a few years back about a new therapy for hyperactivity which involved aggressively eliminating artificial coloring and flavoring from the diet the theory which was backed up by interesting anecdotal results is that certain people are just way more sensitive to these chemicals than other people i don t remember any connection being made with seizures but it certainly couldn t hurt to try an all natural diet
sci.med	re what are the problems with nutrasweet aspartame phenylketonuria is a disease in which the body cannot process phenylalanine it can build up in the blood and cause seizures and neurological damage an odd side effect is that the urine can be deeply colored like red wine people with the condition must avoid nutrasweet chocolate and anything else rich in phenylalanine aspartame is accused of having caused various vague neurological symptoms pat robertson s program the club was beating the drum against aspartame rather vigorously for about a year but that issue seems to have been pushed to the back burner for the last year or so apparently the evidence is not very strong or pat would still be flailing away
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article qnns l agate berkeley edu spp zabriskie berkeley edu steve pope writes the mass of anectdotal evidence combined with the lack of a properly constructed scientific experiment disproving the hypothesis makes the msg reaction hypothesis the most likely explanation for events you forgot the smiley face i can t believe this is what they turn out at berkeley tell me you re an aberration steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima harvard rayssd linus m c spdcc dyer
sci.med	re blood glucose test strips in article apr omen uucp caf omen uucp chuck forsberg wa kgx writes in article apr clpd kodak com young serum kodak com writes human glucose mg dl fasting are these numbers for whole blood or plasma serum actually but plasma numbers are the same whole blood numbers for humans tend to be somewhat lower roughly to percent lower i find the following range for whole blood in fundamentals of clinical chemistry n w teitz editor w b saunders human glucose whole blood fasting levels mg dl which are the strips calibrated for obviously they measure whole blood indeed they do measure whole blood levels although they are not as accurate as a serum test done in a laboratory one problem is that cells in the sample continue to metabolize glucose after the sample is drawn reducing the apparent level according to teitz however results compare reasonably well with laboratory results although values below mg dl tend to be lower with strip tests whereas values above mg dl can be very erratic what is the conversion factor between human plasma glucose and whole blood pin prick glucose concentration as stated above whole blood levels tend to be roughly to percent lower than serum levels sample freshness will affect whole blood levels however i don t believe there is a well defined conversion factor since cell metabolism will affect samples to varying degrees the serum plasma test is much preferred for any except general ball park testing rich young these are not kodak s opinions
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article apr spdcc com dyer spdcc com steve dyer writes in article apr cunews carleton ca wcsbeau alfred carleton ca opirg writes maybe you missed it amidst the flurry of responses you mean the responses some of which pointed to double blind tests which show no such chinese restaurant effect unique to msg it s elicited by the placebo as well many people responded with more anecdotal stories i think its safe to say the original poster is already familiar with such stories presumably he wants hard info to substantiate or refute claims about msg making people ill similarly debunking such claims without doing research whether literature and lab is equally beside the point the original poster no doubt already knows that some people think chinese restaurant syndrome is bogus placebos are all very interesting but irrelevant to the question of what effects msg has you could have real effects and placebo effects people may have allergies in addition yet again the use of this newsgroup is hampered by people not restricting their posts to matters they have substantial knowledge of like youself someone who can read a scientific paper and apparently come away from it with bizarrely cracked ideas which have nothing to do with the use of this substance in human nutrition have you read olney s work i fail to see how citing results from peer reviewed studies qualifies as bizarrely cracked for cites on msg look up almost anything by john w olney a toxicologist who has studied the effects of msg on the brain and on development it is undisputed in the literature that msg is an excitotoxic food additive no it s undisputed in the literature that glutamate is an amino acid which is an excitatory neurotransmitter there is also evidence that excessive release of glutamate may be involved in the pathology of certain conditions like stroke drowning and lou gehrig s disease just to name a few this is a completely different issue than the use of this ubiquitous amino acid in foods people are not receiving intra ventricular injections of glutamate tests have been done on rhesus monkeys as well i have never seen a study where the mode of administration was intra ventricular the glu and asp were administered orally some studies used iv and sc intra ventricular is not a normal admin method for food tox studies for obvious reasons you must not have read the peer reviewed works that i referred to or you would never have come up with this brain injection bunk too much in the diet and the system gets thrown off sez you such an effect in humans has not been demonstrated in any controlled studies infant mice and other models are useful as far as they go but they re not relevant to the matter at hand which is not to say that i favor its use in things like baby food a patently ridiculous use of the additive but we have no reason to believe that msg in the diet effects humans adversely pardon me but where are you getting this from have you read the journals have you done a thorough literature search but you re right mice aren t the best to study this on they re four times less sensitive than humans to msg glutamate and aspartate also an excitotoxin are necessary in small amounts and are freely available in many foods but the amounts added by industry are far above the amounts that would normally be encountered in a ny single food wrong do you know how much aspartate or phenylalanine is in a soft drink milligrams worth compare that to a glass of milk do you know how much glutamate is present in most protein containing foods compared to that added by the use of msg the point is exceeding the window of course they re amino acids note that people with pku cannot tolerate any phenylalanine olney s research compared infant human diets specifically the amount of freely available glu in mother s milk versus commercial baby foods vs typical lunch items from the standard american diet such as packaged soup mixes he found that one could exceed the projected safety margin for infant humans by at least four fold in a single meal of processed foods mother s milk was well below the effective dose read olney s review paper in prog brain res and check his sources they are impecable there is no dispute impeccable there most certainly is a dispute between who over what i would be most interested in seeing you provide peer reviewed non food industry funded citations to articles disputing that msg has no effects whatsoever steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima harvard rayssd linus m c spdcc dyer hmm com why am i not surprised dianne murray wcsbeau ccs carleton ca
sci.med	re what are the problems with nutrasweet aspartame nutrasweet is a synthetic sweetener a couple thousand times sweeter than sugar some people are concerned about the chemicals that the body produces when it degrades nutrasweet it is thought to form formaldehyde and known to for methanol in the degredation pathway that the body uses to eliminate substances the real issue is whether the levels of methanol and formaldehyde produced are high enough to cause significant damage as both are toxic to living cells all i can say is that i will not consume it phenylalanine is nothing for you to worry about it is an amino acid and everyone uses small quantities of it for protein synthesis in the body some people have a disease known as phenylketoneurea and they are missing the enzyme necessary to degrade this compound and eliminate it from the body for them it will accumulate in the body and in high levels this is toxic to growing nerve cells therefore it is only a major problem in young children until around age or so or women who are pregnant and have this disorder it used to be a leading cause of brain damage in infants but now it can be easily detected at birth and then one must simply avoid comsumption of phenylalanine as a child or when pregnant heather
sci.med	re food related seizures in article cup portal com mmm cup portal com mark robert thorson writes i remember hearing a few years back about a new therapy for hyperactivity which involved aggressively eliminating artificial coloring and flavoring from the diet the theory which was backed up by interesting anecdotal results is that certain people are just way more sensitive to these chemicals than other people i don t remember any connection being made with seizures but it certainly couldn t hurt to try an all natural diet yeah the feingold diet is a load of crap children diagnosed with add who are placed on this diet show no improvement in their intellectual and social skills which in fact continue to decline of course the parents who are enthusiastic about this approach lap it up at the expense of their children s development so much for the value of interesting anecdotal results people will believe anything if they want to steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima harvard rayssd linus m c spdcc dyer
sci.med	re science and methodology was homeopathy tradition in article c l ws jn unx sas com sasghm theseus unx sas com gary merrill writes in article apr cs rochester edu fulk cs rochester edu mark fulk writes flights of fancy and other irrational approaches are common the crucial thing is not to sit around just having fantasies they aren t of any use unless they make you do some experiments simple example warren jelinek noticed an extremely heavy band on a dna electrophoresis gel of human alu fragments he got very excited but why do you characterize this as a flight of fancy or a fantasy while i am unfamiliar with the scientific context here it appears obvious that his speculation for lack of a better or more neutral word was at least in significant part a consequence of his knowledge of and acceptance of current theory coupled with his observations it would appear that something quite rational was going on as he attempted to fit his observation into that theory or to tailor the theory to cover the observation whether a scientific idea comes while one is staring out the window or dreaming or having a fantasy or watching an apple fall newton or sitting in a bath archimedes it is ultimately the result of a lot of intense scientific thinking done beforehand letting one s mind roam freely and giving rein to one s intuition can be a useful way of coming up with new ideas but only when one has done a lot of rational analysis of the problem first scientific intuition is not something one is born with it is something that one learns maybe we don t understand completely how it is learned but training in systematic scientific thinking is certainly one of the key elements in developing it informal exploration is also often an important element in finding new scientific ideas one thinks for instance of darwin s naturalistic studies in the galapagos islands which led him to the ideas for the theory of evolution this is why i am offended by a definition of science that emphasizes empirical verification and does not recognize thinking and informal exploration as important scientific work i agree that mere speculation does not deserve to be called science i also think that mere empirical studies not directed by good scientific thinking are at best a very poor kind of science in article qk linnl im u cs utexas edu turpin cs utexas edu russell turpin writes i think that lee lady and i are talking at cross purposes lady seems concerned with the contrast between great science that makes big advances in our knowledge and mediocre science that makes smaller steps in most of this thread i have been concerned with the difference between what is science and what is not i don t think that science should be defined in a way that some of the activities that lead to really important science namely thinking and informal exploration are not recognized as scientific work in the arguments between behaviorists and cognitivists psychology seems less like a science than a collection of competing religious sects lady uhunix uhcc hawaii edu lady uhunix bitnet
sci.med	bursitis and laser treatment my family doctor and the physiotherapist pt she sent me to agree that the pain in my left shoulder is bursitis i have an appointment with an orthpod i love that it s short for orthopedic surgeon apparently but while i m waiting the pt is treating me she s using hot packs ultrasound and lasers but there s no improvement yet in fact i almost suspect it s getting worse my real question is about the laser treatment i can t easily imagine what the physical effect that could have on a deep tissue problem can anyone shed some light so to speak on the matter robert allison ottawa ontario canada
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition dyer spdcc com steve dyer writes in article qnns l agate berkeley edu spp zabriskie berkeley edu steve pope writes the mass of anectdotal evidence combined with the lack of a properly constructed scientific experiment disproving the hypothesis makes the msg reaction hypothesis the most likely explanation for events you forgot the smiley face i can t believe this is what they turn out at berkeley tell me you re an aberration steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima harvard rayssd linus m c spdcc dyer hey keep your fu ng flaming out of this group that goes for you mr dyer as well as several other nasty sarcastic people regarding this subject shoot now i m all riled up too and i was just going to ask if we can keep our discussion about msg a little more civil blasting a school or an idea through simple insults as demonstrated above is not necessary and otherwise out of line if you want to continue your insult war take it elsewhere and stop wasting everyone else s time most sincerely dan checkman
sci.med	frequent nosebleeds i have between and nosebleeds each week as a result of a genetic predisposition to weak capillary walls osler weber rendu fortunately each nosebleed is of short duration does anyone know of any method to reduce this frequency my younger brothers each tried a skin transplant thigh to nose lining but their nosebleeds soon returned i ve seen a reference to an herb called rutin that is supposed to help and i d like to hear of experiences with it or other techniques robert allison ottawa ontario canada
sci.med	re update help was what is this is it lyme s in article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu gordon banks writes in article apr lamont ldgo columbia edu brenner ldgo columbia edu carl brenner writes see the ulterior motive here it is easy for me to see it the those physicians who call everything lyme and treat everything there is a lot of money involved you keep bringing this up but i don t understand what s in it financially for the physician to go ahead and treat unless the physician has an investment in or is involved in some kickback scheme with the home infusion company where is the financial gain for the doctor well let me put it this way based on my own experience a general practitioner with no training in infectious diseases by establishing links to the lyme community treating patients who come to him wondering about lyme or having decided they have lyme as if they did saying that diseases such as ms are probably spirochetal if not lyme giving talks at meetings of users groups validating the feelings of even delusional patients etc this gp can go from being a run of the mill k yr gp to someone with lots of patients in the hospital and getting expensive infusions that need monitoring in his office and making lots of bread also getting the adulation of many who believe his is their only hope if not of cure then of control and seeing his name in publications put out by support groups etc this is a definite temptation harumph getting published in these newsletters is hardly something to aspire to i can t really argue with your logic though i think you may be extrapolating a bit recklessly from what appears to be a sample size of one even if what you say about this local pittsburgh guy is true it is not logical or fair to conclude that this is true of all doctors who treat lyme disease by your logic i could conclude that all of the physicians who consult for insurance companies and make money by denying benefits to lyme patients are doing it for the money rather than because they believe they are encouraging good medicine i have no idea how sincere these guys are but their motives are as suspect as the physicians you excoriate for what you believe to be indiscriminate treatment i would really feel more comfortable discussing the medical issues in lyme rather than speculating as to the motives of the various parties involved gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon carl brenner
sci.med	transplant recipients newsletter april d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d dinternational newsletter april this will be the first of monthly postings of the newsletter of the long island chapter of the transplant recipients international organization trio unfortunately i was unable to post it before the date of this month s meeting i m posting it anyway and posting it world wide instead of regional in the hopes that some of the information may be useful or illustrative also i hope it can be used as an example and inspiration for the posting of other newsletters and data related to organ transplantation and donation mike transplant recipients international organization long island chapter p o box huntington ny newsletter april volume iv no next meeting the next meeting is wednesday april at pm at the knights of columbus emerald manor uniondale avenue in uniondale our guest speaker will be dr lewis teperman dr teperman trained in pittsburgh under dr starzl and is now the assistant director of the liver transplant program at new york university medical center dr teperman will discuss current trends in transplantation and treatment and will answer questions he is a long time friend of trio surgeon to many of our members and always a gracious and delightful guest it is sure to be a very informative interesting and engaging evening our hospitality committee bette and vito suglia and jim spence will be well prepared and at last the weather should be cooperative we hope to see a very large gathering to welcome dr teperman wednesday april k of c uniondale last meeting it has been noted here before that the long island chapter of trio has extraordinary power in predicting bad weather being able to forecast rain sleet and snow fully a month in advance no tv weatherman can match us this time we not only scored again but we were also able to disable the long island railroad making travel really difficult none the less many braved the snow and we had an interesting meeting and good conversation our scheduled speaker mrs elizabeth linnehan a professional nutritionist had a family emergency and was not able to attend she hope she will be with us in the fall to discuss diet and medications however ms jennifer friedman an image consultant and sister of a liver transplant recipient was kind enough to step in on very short notice ms friedman gave us a lot of good advice about choosing clothes and makeup even a bit for men to help us look well and healthy and to minimize some of the cosmetic effects of some of the medicine and drugs we take we are most grateful to jennifer and thank her for an entertaining evening annual meeting in addition to welcoming dr teperman the april meeting is also the annual meeting of the chapter this is the official notice of the meeting as required by our by laws the main purpose of the meeting is to review the past year solicit member views and ideas for better ways to meet their needs and to elect members of the board of directors for the coming two year term the nominating committee has prepared the following slate for the board anne liver recipient and don treffeisen robert heart recipient and eulene smith vito kidney recipient and bette suglia kay grenzig liver recipient jan schichtel kidney recipient larry juliano kidney recipient david bekofsky director public education litp those remaining on the board for another year are robert carroll liver kidney pancreas recipient jerry kidney recipient and jeanne eichhorn ron kidney donor and marie healy peter smith bone marrow recipient patricia ann yankus kidney and pancreas recipient walter ruzak kidney recipient this may seem to be a big board but many hands make light work and with our various medical uncertainties it is good to have backups for all the jobs on the board therefore in addition to the slate being presented for voting nominations will also be accepted from the floor there is no set number of board members and there is plenty of work in addition brief treasurer s and membership reports will be given and the floor will be open for any new business suggestions or comments anyone would like to bring up we will keep the formal meeting short so that we can spend the majority of the time with dr teperman future meetings remember the scheduled guests for the rest of the year may dr peter shaprio chief of psychiatry columbia presbyterian medical center june dr felix rappaport director of the stony brook kidney transplant program plan on being with us the second wednesday of each month notdaw the week of april is national organ and tissue donor awareness week notdaw while we are planning news releases speaking engagements and meetings with supervisors gullata and gaffney we have decided not to have our softball game because of two year s experience with miserable weather we all can help spread the word on donor awareness however we have found it effective to ask your pastor or rabbi to publish a letter or announcement in the parish bulletin allow you to address the congregation or include mention of the gift of life in his sermon attached to this newsletter is a sample letter and fact sheet you can use thank you dr starzl to be honored the long island chapter of the american liver foundation will hold its annual auction and dinner dance on may th at the fountainbleu on jericho turnpike in jericho dr thomas starzl will be the honored guest tickets are person and are going fast if you d like to meet dr starzl call anne treffeisen at for details membership news congratulations to al reese al received his heart transplant in pittsburgh after waiting years he is home and doing well after only days in hospital arthur michaels liver recipient is planning to run the boston marathon in april what fantastic proof that transplantation works we hope the national press notices bob mccormack after a persistent bout with infection had his transplanted kidney removed he is home now back on dialysis and feeling better nicole healy kidney recipient and daughter of ron and marie spent the past several weeks in hospital in miami with problems encountered on vacation marie has been with her in florida they are back in new york where nicole s treatment will continue we wish nicole a speedy recovery kay grenzig liver recipient is mending now after a bad fall that resulted in a broken arm and a broken leg kay is a candidate for the board so we need her well soon and best wishes to all coming out of the flu it was a tough winter for many but the tulips are just under the snow see you wednesday april pm k of c uniondale dr lewis teperman
sci.med	re what are the problems with nutrasweet aspartame in article apr uvm edu hbloom moose uvm edu heather writes nutrasweet is a synthetic sweetener a couple thousand times sweeter than sugar some people are concerned about the chemicals that the body produces when it degrades nutrasweet it is thought to form formaldehyde and known to for methanol in the degredation pathway that the body uses to eliminate substances the real issue is whether the levels of methanol and formaldehyde produced are high enough to cause significant damage as both are toxic to living cells all i can say is that i will not consume it aspartame is the methyl ester of a dipeptide so a product of its hydrolysis is going to be methanol which can then be oxidized to formaldehyde the amounts of methanol formed from the ingestion of aspartame containing foods are completely in the metabolic noise since you re forming equally minute amounts of methanol from other components of food all the time in studies involving administration of high doses of the additive blood methanol levels were undetectable methanol is a poison only in quantities seen in human poisonings say ml and above this is a consequence of its oxidation to formaldehyde and formic acid two quite reactive compounds which at high enough levels can damage tissues like the retina and kidney because at such high doses the body s detoxification system is overwhelmed interestingly one treatment for early methanol poisoning is to get the person drunk on ethyl alcohol vodka or an equivalent that s because ethanol is metabolized preferentially over methanol by the enzymes in the liver if the methanol stays as methanol and isn t metabolized to formaldehyde it is actually relatively non toxic steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima harvard rayssd linus m c spdcc dyer
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article apr cunews carleton ca wcsbeau alfred carleton ca opirg writes many people responded with more anecdotal stories i think its safe to say the original poster is already familiar with such stories presumably he wants hard info to substantiate or refute claims about msg making people ill there has been no hard info provided about msg making people ill that s the point after all like youself someone who can read a scientific paper and apparently come away from it with bizarrely cracked ideas which have nothing to do with the use of this substance in human nutrition have you read olney s work i fail to see how citing results from peer reviewed studies qualifies as bizarrely cracked that s because these peer reviewed studies are not addressing the effects of msg in people they re looking at animal models you can t walk away from this and start ranting about gloom and doom as if there were any documented deleterious health effects demonstrated in humans note that i wouldn t have any argument with a statement like noting that animal administration has pro duced the following blah blah we must be careful about its use in humans this is precisely not what you said tests have been done on rhesus monkeys as well i have never seen a study where the mode of administration was intra ventricular the glu and asp were administered orally some studies used iv and sc intra ventricular is not a normal admin method for food tox studies for obvious reasons you must not have read the peer reviewed works that i referred to or you would never have come up with this brain injection bunk it most certainly is for neurotoxicology you know studies of glutamate involve more than food science pardon me but where are you getting this from have you read the journals have you done a thorough literature search so point us to the studies in humans please i m familiar with the literature and i ve never seen any which relate at all to olney s work in animals and the effects of glutamate on neurons the point is exceeding the window of course they re amino acids note that people with pku cannot tolerate any phenylalanine well actually they have to tolerate some phenylalanine it s a essential amino acid they just try to get as little as is healthy without producing dangerous levels of phenylalanine and its metabolites in the blood olney s research compared infant human diets specifically the amount of freely available glu in mother s milk versus commercial baby foods vs typical lunch items from the standard american diet such as packaged soup mixes he found that one could exceed the projected safety margin for infant humans by at least four fold in a single meal of processed foods mother s milk was well below the effective dose goodness i m not saying that it s good to feed infants a lot of glutamate supplemented foods it s just that this projected safety margin is a construct derived from animal models and given that you can prove anything you like we re talking prudent policy in infant nutrition here yet you re misrepresenting it as received wisdom read olney s review paper in prog brain res and check his sources they are impecable there is no dispute impeccable there most certainly is a dispute between who over what i would be most interested in seeing you provide peer reviewed non food industry funded citations to articles disputing that msg has no effects whatsoever you mean asserting you re being intellectually dishonest or just plain confused because you re conflating reports which do not necessarily have anything to do with each other olney s reports would argue a potential for problems in human infants but that s not to say that this says anything whatsoever about the use of msg in most foods nor does he provide any studies in humans which indicate any deleterious effects for obvious reasons it says nothing about msg s contribtion to the phenomenon of the chinese restaurant syndrome it says nothing about the frequent inability to replicate anecdotal reports of msg sensitivity in the lab dyer ursa major spdcc com hmm com why am i not surprised dianne murray wcsbeau ccs carleton ca probably one of the dumber remarks you ve made steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima harvard rayssd linus m c spdcc dyer
sci.med	re frequent nosebleeds in article apr freenet carleton ca ab freenet carleton ca robert allison writes does anyone know of any method to reduce this frequency my younger brothers each tried a skin transplant thigh to nose lining but their nosebleeds soon returned i ve seen a reference to an herb called rutin that is supposed to help and i d like to hear of experiences with it or other techniques rutin is a bioflavonoid compounds found among other places in the rinds of citrus fruits these have been popular especially in europe to treat capillary fragility and seemingly in even more extreme cases a few months ago a friend was visiting from italy and he said that he d had hemorrhoids but his pharmacist friend sold him some pills incredulously i asked to look at them and sure enough these contained rutin as the active ingredient i probably destroyed the placebo effect from my skeptical sputtering i have no idea how he s doing hemorrhoid wise these days the studies which attempted to look at the effect of these compounds in human disease and nutrition were never very well controlled so the reports of positive results with them is mostly anecdotal this stuff is pretty much non toxic and probably inexpensive so there s little risk of trying it but i wouldn t expect much of a result steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima harvard rayssd linus m c spdcc dyer
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition is there such a thing as msg monosodium glutamate sensitivity superstition anybody here have experience to the contrary as a person who is very sensitive to msg and whose wife and kids are too i want to know why the food industry wants to put msg in food somebody in the industry give me some reasons why is it an industrial byproduct that needs getting get rid of is it to cover up the fact that the recipes are not very good or the food is poor quality do some of you get a sadistic pleasure out of making some of us sick do the taste testers have some defect in their flavor sensors mouth etc that msg corrects i really don t understand also nitrosiamines sp and sulfites why them there are safer ways to preserve food wines and beers i think outlaw the use of these substances without warning labels as large as those on cig packages require of comparable products on the market to be free of these substances and state that they are free of msg dyes nitrosiamines and sulfites on the package while at it outlaw yellow dye for that matter why dye food take the dyes and flavorings out of vitamins in my osco only stress tabs tm didn t have yellow dye my doctor says yellow dye is responsible for of all nasal polyps keep food food quit putting in junk just my two cents worth sig a person tired of getting sick from this junk walter lundby walter lundby
sci.med	re science and methodology was homeopathy tradition in article lsu q innia saltillo cs utexas edu turpin cs utexas edu russell turpin writes i agree with everything that lee lady wrote in her previous post in this thread gee maybe i ve misjudged you russell anyone who agrees with something i say can t be all bad seriously i m not sure whether i misjudged you or not in one respect i still have a major problem though with your insistence that science is mainly about avoiding mistakes and i still disagree with your contention that nobody who doesn t use methods deemed scientific can possibly know what s true and what s not deleted material which i agree with back to lee lady these are not the rules according to many who post to sci med and sci psychology according to these posters if it s not supported by carefully designed controlled studies then it s not science these posters are making the mistake that i have previously criticized of adhering to a methodological recipe a carefully rules such as support the hypothesis by a carefully designed and controlled study are too narrow to apply to all investigation i think that the requirements for particular reasoning to be convincing depends greatly on the kinds of mistakes that have occurred in past reasoning about the same kinds of things to reuse the previous example we know that conclusions from uncontrolled observations of the treatment of chronic medical problems are notoriously problematic okay so let s see if we agree on this first of all there are degrees of certainty it might be appropriate for instance to demand carefully controlled trials before we accept as absolute scientific truth to the extent that there is any such thing the effectiveness of a certain treatment on the other hand highly favorable clinical experience even if uncontrolled can be adequate to justify a preliminary judgement that a treatment is useful this is often the best evidence we can hope for from investigators who do not have institutional or corporate support in this case it makes sense to tentatively treat claims as credible but to reserve final judgement until establishment scientists who are qualified and have the necessary resources can do more careful testing secondly it makes sense to be more tolerant in our standards of evidence for a pronounced effect than for one that is marginal i come to this dispute about what science is not only as a mathematician but as a veteran of many arguments in sci psychology and occasionally in sci med about nlp neurolinguistic programming much of the work done to date by nlpers can be better categorized as informal exploration than as careful scientific research for years now i have been trying to get scientific and clinical psychologists to just take a look at it to read a few of the books and watch some of the videotapes courtesy of your local university library not for the purpose of making a definitive judgement but simply to look at the nlp methodology especially the approach to eliciting information from subjects and look for ideas and hypotheses which might be of scientific interest and most especially to be aware of the questions nlp suggests which might be worthy of scientific investigation over and over again the response i get in sci pychology is if this hasn t been thoroughly validated by the accepted form of empirical research then it can t be of any interest to us to me the ultimate reducio ad absurdum of the extreme there ve got to be controlled studies position is an nlp technique called the fast phobia trauma cure simple phobias as opposed to agoraphobia may not be the world s most important psychological disorder but the nice thing about them is that it doesn t take a sophisticated instrument to diagnose them or tell when someone is cured of one the nlp phobia cure is a simple visualization which requires less than minutes nlpers claim that it can also be used to neutralize a traumatic memory and hence is useful in treating post traumatic stress syndrome it is essentially a variation on the classic desensitization process used by behavioral therapists a subject only needs to be taken through the technique once or in the case of ptsd once for each traumatic incident the process doesn t need to be repeated and the subject doesn t need to practice it over again at home now to me it seems pretty easy to test the effectiveness of this cure especially if as nlpers claim the success rate is extremely high take someone with a fear of heights as i used to have take them up to a balcony on the th floor and observe their response spend minutes to have them do the simple visualization send them back up to the balcony and see if things have changed check back with them in a few weeks to see if the cure seems to be lasting more long term follow up is certainly desirable but from a scientific point of view even a cure that lasts several weeks has significance in any case there are many known cases where the cure has lasted years to the best of my knowledge there is no known case where the cure has been reversed after holding for a few weeks my own cure incidentally was done with a slightly different nlp technique before i learned of the fast phobia trauma cure ten years later now i enjoy living on the th floor of my building and having a large balcony the folks over in sci psychology have a hundred and one excuses not to make this simple test they claim that only an elaborate outcome study will be satisfactory a study of the sort that nlp practitioners many of whom make a barely marginal living from their practice can ill afford to do most of them are also just plain not interested because the whole idea seems frivolous and since they re not part of the scientific establishment they have no tangible rewards to gain from scientific acceptance the fast phobia trauma cure is over ten years old now and the clinical psychology establishment is still saying we don t have any way of knowing that it s effective these academics themselves have the resources to do a study as elaborate as anyone could want of course but they say why should i prove your theory and the burden of proof is on the one making the claim one academic in sci psychology said that it would be completely unscientific for him to test the phobia cure since it hasn t been described in a scientific journal it s described in a number of books and i ve posted articles in sci psychology describing it in as much detail as i m capable of actually at least one fairly careful academic study has been done with favorable results but it s apparently not acceptable because it s a doctoral dissertation and not published in a refereed journal to me this sort of attitude does not advance science but hinders it this is the kind of thing i have in mind when i talk about doctrinnaire attitudes about science now maybe i have been unfair in imputing such attitudes to you russell if so i apologize in the arguments between behaviorists and cognitivists psychology seems less like a science than a collection of competing religious sects lady uhunix uhcc hawaii edu lady uhunix bitnet
sci.med	need to find information about current trends in diabetes i looked for diab in my newsrc and came up with nuthin anyone have any good sources for where i can read in particular i m interested in finding out more about intravenous insulin injection for hepatic vein liver activation whew wotta mouthful anything that smells like a pointer would be helpful newsgroup mailinglist etc many thanks time flies like the wind fruit flies like bananas steven w orr steveo world std com uunet world steveo everybody repeat after me we are all individuals
sci.med	re barbecued foods and health risk rsilver world std com richard silver writes some recent postings remind me that i had read about risks associated with the barbecuing of foods namely that carcinogens are generated is this a valid concern if so is it a function of the smoke or the elevated temperatures is it a function of the cooking elements wood or charcoal vs lava rocks i wish to know more thanks i recall that the issue is that fat on the meat liquifies and then drips down onto the hot elements whatever they are that the extreme heat then catalyzes something in the fat into one or more carcinogens which then are carried back up onto the meat in the smoke the ol professor
sci.med	re barbecued foods and health risk this reminds me of the last graham kerr cooking show i saw today he smoked meat on the stovetop in a big pot he used a strange technique i d never seen before he took a big pot with lid and placed a tray in it made from aluminum foil the tray was about the size and shape of a typical coffee table ash tray made by crumpling a sheet of foil around the edges in the tray he placed a couple spoonfuls of brown sugar a similar quantity of brown rice he said any rice will do the contents of two teabags of earl grey tea and a few cloves on top of this was placed an ordinary aluminum basket type steamer with two chicken breasts in it the lid was put on and the whole assembly went on the stovetop at high heat for or minutes later he removed what looked like smoked chicken breasts what surprises and concerns me are no wood chips where does the smoke flavor come from about or years ago i remember hearing that carmel color obtained by caramelizing sugar a common coloring and flavoring agent had been found to be carcinogenic i believe they injected it under the skin of rats or something if the results were conclusive caramel color would not be legal in the u s yet it is still being used was the initial research result found to be incorrect or what about or years ago i remember earl grey tea being implicated as carcinogenic because it contains oil of bergamot an extract from the skin of a type of citrus fruit does anyone know whatever happened with that story if it were carcinogenic earl grey tea could not have it as an additive yet it apparently continues to do so wrt natural wood smoke i ve smoking a duck right now as it happens i ve noticed that a heavily smoked food item will have an unpleasant tangy taste when eaten directly out of the smoker if the smoke has only recently stopped flowing i find the best taste to be had by using dry wood chips getting lots of smoke right up at the beginning of the cooking process then slowly barbequing for hours and hours without adding additional wood chips my theory is that the unpleasant tangy molecules are low molecular weight stuff like terpenes and that the smoky flavor molecules are some sort of larger molecule more similar to tar the long barbeque time after the initial intensive smoke drives off the low molecular weight stuff just leaving the flavor behind does anyone know if my theory is correct i also remember hearing that the combustion products of fat dripping on the charcoal and burning are carcinogenic for that reason and because it covers the product with soot and some unpleasant tanginess i only grill non drippy meats like prawns directly over hot coals i do stuff like this duck by indirect heat i have a long rectangular weber and i put the coals at one end and the meat at the other end the fat drops directly on the floor below the meat and next time i use the barbeque i make the fire in that end to burn off the fat and help ignite the coals and yet another reason i ve heard not to smoke or barbeque meat is that smoked cured meat like pork sausage and bacon contains nitrosamines which are carcinogenic i m pretty sure this claim actually has some standing don t know about the others an amusing incident i recall was the duncan hines scandal when it was discovered that the people who make duncan hines cake mix were putting a lot of ethylene dibromide edb into the cake mix to suppress weevils this is a fumigant which is known to be carcinogenic the guy who represented the company in the press conference defended himself by saying that the risk from eating duncan hines products every day for a year would be equal to the cancer risk from eating two charcoal broiled steaks what a great analogy when i first heard that my immediate reaction was we should make that a standard unit one charcoal broiled steak would be equivalent to duncans
sci.med	re brain abscess definition needed in article apr tardis mdcorp ksc nasa gov fresa tardis mdcorp ksc nasa gov writes could someone please define a brain abscess for me a relative has one near his cerebellum a brain abscess is an infection deep in the brain substance it is hard to cure with antibiotics since it gets walled off and usually it needs surgical drainage gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	hypoglycemia from anello adcs fnal gov anthony anello can anyone tell me if a bloodcount of when diagnosed as hypoglycemic is dangerous i e indicates a possible pancreatic problem one dr says no the other not his specialty says the first is negligent and that another blood blood glucose levels of or so are common several hours after a big meal this level will usually not cause symptoms test should be done also what is a good diet what has worked for a hypo glycemic if you mean reactive hypoglycemia there are usually no symptoms hence there is no disease hence the dietary recommendations are the same as for anyone else if a patient complains of dizziness faintness sweating palpitations etc reliably several hours after a big meal the recommendations are obvious eat smaller meals slmr e mail jim zisfein factory com jim zisfein
sci.med	need advice with doctor patient relationship problem ml from libman hsc usc edu marlena libman ml i need advice with a situation which occurred between me and a physican ml which upset me ml my questions should i continue to have this doctor manage my care that s easy no you wouldn t take your computer into a repair shop where they were rude to you even if they were competent in their business why would you take your own body into a repair shop where the repairman has such a bad attitude slmr e mail jim zisfein factory com jim zisfein
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition between who over what i would be most interested in seeing you provide peer reviewed non food industry funded citations to articles disputing that msg has no effects whatsoever you mean asserting you re being intellectually dishonest or just plain confused because you re conflating reports which do not necessarily have anything to do with each other olney s reports would argue a potential for problems in human infants but that s not to say that this says anything whatsoever about the use of msg in most foods nor does he provide any studies in humans which indicate any deleterious effects for obvious reasons it says nothing about msg s contribtion to the phenomenon of the chinese restaurant syndrome it says nothing about the frequent inability to replicate anecdotal reports of msg sensitivity in the lab okay mr dyer we re properly impressed with your philosophical skills and ability to insult people you re a wonderful speaker and an adept politician however i believe that all you were asked to do was simply provide scientific research refuting the work of olney i don t think the original poster sought to start a philisophical debate she wanted some information given a little effort one could justify that shooting oneself with a before breakfast is a healthy practice but we re not particularily interested in what you can verbally prove disprove or rationalize where s the research where are the studies i appoligize if this sounds flamish i simply would like to see the thread get back on track lone wolf happy are they who dream dreams ed philips and pay the price to see them come true slyx cc usu edu unknown
sci.med	re barbecued foods and health risk in article dubin spot colorado edu dubin spot colorado edu writes i recall that the issue is that fat on the meat liquifies and then drips down onto the hot elements whatever they are that the extreme heat then catalyzes something in the fat into one or more carcinogens which then are carried back up onto the meat in the smoke hmmm care to be more vague howard doyle doyle pitt edu
sci.med	re sleeping pill od in article apr scott skidmore edu dfederma scott skidmore edu daniel federman writes a friend of mine took appoximately cvs sleeping pills each containing mg of diphenhydramine i think that s mg total i m worried though about the long term effects since he never had his stomach pumped will he have liver or brain damage any information would be greatly appreciated shouldn t have but he may need to see the shrink about why he wanted to kill himself depressed people can be succesfully treated usually gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re request for information on essential tremor and indrol in article q tbninnnfn life ai mit edu sundar ai mit edu writes essential tremor is a progressive hereditary tremor that gets worse when the patient tries to use the effected member all limbs vocal cords and head can be involved inderal is a beta blocker and is usually effective in diminishing the tremor alcohol and mysoline are also effective but alcohol is too toxic to use as a treatment gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re what are the problems with nutrasweet aspartame hbloom moose uvm edu heather writes nutrasweet is a synthetic sweetener a couple thousand times sweeter than sugar some people are concerned about the chemicals that the body produces when it degrades nutrasweet it is thought to form formaldehyde and known to for methanol in the degredation pathway that the body uses to eliminate substances the real issue is whether the levels of methanol and formaldehyde produced are high enough to cause significant damage as both are toxic to living cells all i can say is that i will not consume it phenylalanine is nothing for you to worry about it is an amino acid and everyone uses small quantities of it for protein synthesis in the body some people have a disease known as phenylketoneurea and they are missing the enzyme necessary to degrade this compound and eliminate it from the body for them it will accumulate in the body and in high levels this is toxic to growing nerve cells therefore it is only a major problem in young children until around age or so or women who are pregnant and have this disorder it used to be a leading cause of brain damage in infants but now it can be easily detected at birth and then one must simply avoid comsumption of phenylalanine as a child or when pregnant heather if i remember rightly pku syndrome in infants is about they lack two genes and people who lack one gene are supposed to be persons those with pku have to avoid naturally occuring phenylalanine and those who only have one gene and underproduce whatever it is they are supposed to be producing are supposed to be less tolerant of aspartame the methol formaldahyde thing was supposed to occur with heating i don t drink it i figure sugar was made for a reason to quickly and easily satiate hungry people if you don t need the calories it s just as easy to drink water used to drink a six pack a aday of aspartame soda don t even drink one coke a day when sugared
sci.med	re nih offers exploratory grants for alternative medicine in article apr island com green island com robert greenstein writes in article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu gordon banks writes one problem is very few scientists are interested in alternative medicine so gordon why do you think this is so probably because most of them come packaged with some absurd theory behind them e g homoeopathy like cures like the more you dilute things the more powerful they get even if you dilute them so much there is no ingredient but water left chiropractic all illness stems from compressions of nerves by misaligned vertebrae such systems are so patently absurd that any good they do is accidental and not related to the theory the only exception is probably herbalism because scientists recognize the potent drugs that derive from plants and are always interested in seeing if they can find new plants that have active and useful substances but that isn t what is meant by alternative medicine usually if you get into the qi accupuntunce charts etc you are now back to silly theories that probably have nothing to do with why accupuncture works in some cases perhaps another reason they are reluctant is the rhine experience rhine was a scientist who wanted to investigate the paranormal and his lab was filled with so much chacanery and fakery that people don t want to be associated with that sort of thing gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re dislocated shoulder in article apr e big mko dec com steve caboom cbm dec com steve katz writes recently i managed to dislocate my shoulder while sking the injury also seems to have damaged the nerves in my arm i was wondering if someone could point me towards some literature that would give me some background into these types of injuries please respond by email if possible your medical school library should have books on peripheral nerve injuries probably it was your brachial plexus so look that up gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re too many mris in article q rie mo access digex net kfl access digex com keith f lynch writes so why are the scans so expensive and what can be done to reduce the expense isn t it just a box with some big magnets a radio transmitter and an attached pc the magnets are huge good mri sets with big tesla magnets cost millions of dollars then the radiologist wants for reading each scan gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re helium non renewable was too many mris in article lsj gdinnkor saltillo cs utexas edu turpin cs utexas edu russell turpin writes how does the helium get consumed i would have thought that failure to contain it perfectly would result in its evaporation back into the atmosphere sounds like a cycle to me obviously it takes energy to run the cycle but i seriously doubt that helium consumption is a resource issue it s not a cycle free helium will escape from the atmosphere due to its high velocity it won t be practical to recover it it has to be mined gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re need to find information about current trends in diabetes in c nf r kpj world std com steveo world std com steven w orr writes i looked for diab in my newsrc and came up with nuthin anyone have any good sources for where i can read check out the diabetic mailing list a knowledgable helpful friendly voluminous bunch send email to listserv pccvm bitnet with this line in the body subscribe diabetic your name here also the vote for misc health diabetes a newsgroup for general discussion of diabetes is currently underway and will close on april from the nd cfv posted to news announce newgroups news groups and sci med message q jshinn v rodan uu net to place a vote for the creation of misc health diabetes send an email message to yes sun nrl navy mil to place a vote against creation of misc health diabetes send an email message to no sun nrl navy mil the contents of the message should contain the line i vote for against misc health diabetes as proposed email messages sent to the above addresses must constitute unambiguous and unconditional votes for against newsgroup creation as proposed conditional votes will not be accepted only votes emailed to the above addresses will be counted mailed replies to this posting will be returned in the event that more than one vote is placed by an individual only the most recent vote will be counted one additional cfv will be posted during the course of the vote along with an acknowledgment of those votes received to date no information will be supplied as to how people are voting until the final acknowledgment is made at the end at which time the full vote will be made public voting will continue until gmt apr votes will not be accepted after this date any administrative inquiries pertaining to this cfv may be made by email to swkirch sun nrl navy mil the proposed charter appears below charter misc health diabetes unmoderated the purpose of misc health diabetes is to provide a forum for the discussion of issues pertaining to diabetes management i e diet activities medicine schedules blood glucose control exercise medical breakthroughs etc this group addresses the issues of management of both type i insulin dependent and type ii non insulin dependent diabetes both technical discussions and general support discussions relevant to diabetes are welcome postings to misc heath diabetes are intended to be for discussion purposes only and are in no way to be construed as medical advice diabetes is a serious medical condition requiring direct supervision by a primary health care physician end of charter
sci.med	foreskin troubles what can be done short of circumcision for an adult male whose foreskin will not retract
sci.med	bone marrow sclerosis i am looking for information on possible causes and long term effects of bone marrow sclerosis i would also be thankful if anyone reading this newsgroup could list some recognized treatment centers if anything else than massive blood transfusion can be effective if you plan on a go to the library style reply please be kind enough to add a list of suggested topics or readings medicine is not my field regards joel malard joel cs mcgill ca
sci.med	quality control in medicine does anybody know of any information regarding the implementaion of total quality management quality control quality assurance in the delivery of health care service i would appreciate any information if there is enough interest i will post the responses thank you abhin singla ms bioe mba md president ac medcomp inc
sci.med	re lyme vaccine jeff if you have time to type it in i d love to have the reference for that paper thanks kathleen richards email karicha eis calstate edu sometimes you re the windshield sometimes you re the bug dire straits
sci.med	re quality control in medicine in article u uicvm uic edu u uicvm uic edu writes does anybody know of any information regarding the implementaion of total quality management quality control quality assurance in the delivery of health care service i would appreciate any information if there is enough interest i will post the responses this is in fact a hot topic in medicine these days and much of the medical literature is devoted to this the most heavily funded studies these days are for outcome research and physicians and others are constantly questionning whether what we do it truly effective in any given situation qa activities are a routine part of every hospital s administrative function and are required by accreditation agencies there are even entire publications devoted to qa issues kenneth gilbert university of pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit not a programmer
sci.med	re homeopathy a respectable medical tradition gordon banks geb cs pitt edu wrote in article nlsun oracle nl rgasch nl oracle com robert gasch writes from a business point of view it might make sense it depends on the personality of the practitioner if he can charm the patients into coming homeopathy can be very profitable it won t be covered by insurance however just keep that in mind myself i d have in many european countries homepathy is accepted as a method of curing or at least alleiating many conditions to which modern medicine has no answer in most of these countries insurance pays for the treatments accepted by whom not by scientists there are people in every country who waste time and money on quackery in britain and scandanavia where i have worked it was not paid for what are most of these countries i don t believe you in holland insurences pay for homeopathic treatment in germany they do so as well i austria they do if you have a condition which can not be helped by normal medicine happened to me switzerland seems to be the same as austria i have direct experience in the swiss case at the univeristy of vienna i believe innsbruck as well homeopathy can be taken in med school i found that in combination with acupuncture it changed my life from living hell to a condition which enables me to lead a relatively normal life i found that modern medicine was powerless to cure me of a severe case of neurodermitis note i mean cure not surpress the symptoms which is what modern medicine attempts to do in the case of neurodermitis i m not saying that homeopathy is scientific but that it can offer help in areas in which modern medicine is absolutely helpless from reading your aritcle it seems that your have some deeply rooted beliefs about this issue this is not intended to be offensive or sarcastic it just sounded like that to me which makes me doubt if you can read this with an open mind if you do can please excuse my last comment robert rgasch nl oracle com
sci.med	help help maybe anybody know names of conferences in please help me find any information for next keywords echocardiography and cardiology dopler i hawe no informatins on this subjects years becouse i leave in tbilisy sorry for my bad english my adress irina kiria kheta georgia su
sci.med	hypoglycemia anello adcs fnal gov anthony anello writes a can anyone tell me if a bloodcount of when diagnosed as hypoglycemic is a dangerous i e indicates a possible pancreatic problem one dr says no the a other not his specialty says the first is negligent and that another blood a test should be done also what is a good diet what has worked for a hypo a glycemic tia a a a anthony anello a fermilab a batavia illinois once you have your hypoglycemia confirmed through the proper channels you might consider ther following chelated manganese mg day chelated chromium mcg day increase protein through foods or supplements avoid supplements foods high in potassium calcium zinc avoid vit c supplements in excess of mg avoid honey and foods high in simple sugars enjoy breads cereals grains discuss the above with your health practitioner for compatibility with your body chemistry and safety ron rosereader p beer it s not just for breakfast anymore rosemail usenet rose media hamilton
sci.med	glutamate in article lso qinnkpr news bbn com sher bbn com lawrence d sher writes from the n e j med editorial the dicarboxylic amino acid glutamate is not only an essential amino acid glutamate is not an essential amino acid people can survive quite well without ever eating any keith lynch kfl access digex com f p s q x f f q f f p q s q p f w q p x
sci.med	re lyme vaccine kathleen richards kilty ucrengr wrote if you have time to type it in i d love to have the reference for that paper thanks experimental lyme disease in dogs produces arthritis and persistant infection the journal of infectious diseases march jeff parke jeffp pgavin vetmed wsu edu also jeffp wsuvm bitnet aol jeffparke washington state university college of veterinary medicine class of pullman wa
sci.med	re selective placebo in article apr rose com ron roth rose com ron roth writes otoh who are we kidding the new england medical journal in ran the heading ninety percent of diseases are not treatable by drugs or surgery which has been echoed by several other reports no wonder mds are not amused with alternative medicine since the magic of the placebo effect would award alternative practitioners twice the success rate of conventional medicine of diseases is not the same thing as of patients in a world with one curable disease that strikes people and nine incurable diseases which strikes one person each medical science will cure of the patients and report that of diseases have no therapy a disease would be counted among the untreatable if nothing better than a placebo were known of course mds are ethically bound to not knowingly dispense placebos dk
sci.med	re glutamate in article qrsr d access digex net kfl access digex com keith f lynch writes in article lso qinnkpr news bbn com sher bbn com lawrence d sher writes from the n e j med editorial the dicarboxylic amino acid glutamate is not only an essential amino acid glutamate is not an essential amino acid people can survive quite well without ever eating any there is no contradiction here it is essential in the sense that your body needs it it is non essential in the sense that your body can produce enough of it without supplement jason chen
sci.med	re glutamate in article apr walter bellcore com jchen wind bellcore com jason chen writes there is no contradiction here it is essential in the sense that your body needs it it is non essential in the sense that your body can produce enough of it without supplement and when you re in a technical discussion of amino acids it s the latter definition that s used almost universally carl j lydick internet carl sol gps caltech edu nsi hepnet sol carl disclaimer hey i understand vaxen and vms that s what i get paid for my understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level or below so unless what i m saying is directly related to vax vms don t hold me or my organization responsible for it if it is related to vax vms you can try to hold me responsible for it but my organization had nothing to do with it
sci.med	re barbecued foods and health risk in article c mv v o world std com rsilver world std com richard silver writes some recent postings remind me that i had read about risks associated with the barbecuing of foods namely that carcinogens are generated is this a valid concern if so is it a function of the smoke or the elevated temperatures is it a function of the cooking elements wood or charcoal vs lava rocks i wish to know more thanks from the tufts university guide to total nutrition stanley gershoff ph d dean of tufts university school of nutrition harperperennial isbn the greatest hazard of barbecuing is that the cook will not use enough caution and get burned some people suggest that the barbecuing itself is dangerous because the smoke which is absorbed by the meat contains benzopyrene which in its pure form has been known to cause cancer in laboratory animals however in order to experience the same results people would have to consume unrealistically large quantities of barbecued meat at a time rich young these are not kodak s opinions
sci.med	re what are the problems with nutrasweet aspartame in article apr uvm edu hbloom moose uvm edu heather writes nutrasweet is a synthetic sweetener a couple thousand times sweeter than sugar some people are concerned about the chemicals that the body produces when it degrades nutrasweet it is thought to form formaldehyde and known to for methanol in the degredation pathway that the body uses to eliminate substances the real issue is whether the levels of methanol and formaldehyde produced are high enough to cause significant damage as both are toxic to living cells all i can say is that i will not consume it in the september issue of the tufts university diet and nutrition letter there is a three page article about artificial sweeteners what follows are those excerpts which deal specifically with nutrasweet reproduced without permission the controversy over aspartame began six years ago in england where a group of researchers found that aspartame marketed under the tradename nutrasweet appears to stimulate appetite and presumably the eating of more calories in the long run than if a person simply consumed sugar when researchers asked a group of people to drink plain water aspartame sweetened water and sugared water they said that overall they felt hungriest after drinking the artificially sweetened beverage the study received widespread media attention and stirred a good deal of concern among the artificial sweetener using public however its results were questionable at best since the researchers did not go on to measure whether the increase in appetite did actually translate into an increase in eating the two do not necessarily go hand in hand in the years that followed more than a dozen studies examining the effect of aspartame on appetite and eating were conducted and after reviewing every one of them the director of the laboratory of the study of human ingestive behavior at johns hopkins university barbara rolls ph d concluded that consuming aspartame sweetened foods and drinks is not associated with any increase in the amount of food eaten afterward one artificial sweetener that is not typically accused of causing cancer is aspartame but it most certainly has been blamed for a host of other ills since its introduction in the government has received thousands of complaints accusing it of causing everything from headaches to nausea to mood swings to anxiety still years of careful scientific study conducted both before and after the sweetener s entering the market have failed to confirm that it can bring about adverse health effects that s why the centers for disease control the government agency charged with monitoring public health the american medical association s council on scientific affairs and the food and drug administration have given aspartame one of the most studied food additives a clean bill of health granted the fda has set forth an acceptable daily intake of milligrams of aspartame per kilogram of body weight to exceed the limit however a pound kg woman would have to take in milligrams of aspartame the amount in cans of aspartame sweetened soda pop cups of gelatin cups of yogurt or six ounce servings of aspartame containing hot cocoa a pound kg man would have to consume some milligrams of the sweetener the amount in cans of soda pop or cups of yogurt to go over the limit chart with aspartame content of selected foods omitted only one small group of people must be certain to stay away from aspartame those born with a rare metabolic disorder called phenylketonuria or pku the estimated one person in every to who has it is unable to properly metabolize an essential amino acid in aspartame called phenylalanine once a child consumes it it builds up in the body and can ultimately cause such severe problems as mental retardation to help people with pku avoid the substance labels on cans of soda pop and other aspartame sweetened foods must carry the warning phenylketonurics contains phenylalanine rich young these are not kodak s opinions
sci.med	hunchback i have a friend who has a very pronounced slouch of his upper back he always walks and sits this way so i have concluded that he is hunchback is this a genetic disorder or is it something that people can correct i e is it just bad posture that can be changed with a bit of will power isabelle rosso dartmouth edu
sci.med	post polio syndrome information needed please ks from keith actrix gen nz keith stewart ks my wife has become interested through an acquaintance in post polio syndrome ks this apparently is not recognised in new zealand and different symptons eg ks chest complaints are treated separately does anone have any information i m not sure that this condition is recognised anywhere in the sense of a disease with diagnostic criteria clear boundaries between it and other diseases unique pathologic or physiologic features etc but here goes with what many neurologists agree on post polio syndrome patients have evidence of motor neuron disease by clinical examination emg and muscle biopsy the abnormalities are mostly chronic due to old polio but there is evidence of ongoing deterioration clinically the patients complain of declining strength and endurance with everyday motor tasks musculoskeletal pain is a nearly universal feature that doubtless contributes to the impaired performance the examination shows muscle weakness and atrophy the emg shows evidence of old denervation with reinnervation giant and long duration motor unit action potentials and evidence of active denervation fibrillation potentials the biopsy also shows old denervation with reinnervation fiber type grouping and evidence of active denervation small angulated fibers with dense oxidative enzyme staining but curiously little or no group atrophy post polio patients do not have als in als there is clinically evident deterioration from one month to the next in post polio the patients are remarkably stable in objective findings from one year to the next of course there are patients who had polio before who develop genuine als but als is no more common among polio survivors than among people who never had polio the cause of post polio syndrome is unknown there is little evidence that post polio patients have active polio virus or destructive immunologic response to virus antigen there is no solid evidence that patients with post polio have anything different happening to the motor unit anterior horn cells motor axons neuromuscular junctions and muscle fibers than patients with old polio who are not complaining of deterioration both groups can have the same emg and biopsy findings the reason for these acute changes in a chronic disease old polio is unknown possibly spinal motor neurons that have reinnervated huge numbers of muscle fibers start shedding the load after several years there are a couple of clinical features that distinguish post polio syndrome patients from patients with old polio who deny deterioration the pps patients are more likely to have had severe polio the pps patients are much more likely to complain of pain they also tend to score higher on depression scales of neuropsychologic tests my take on this i m sure some will disagree after recovery from severe polio there can be abnormal loading on muscles tendons ligaments bones and joints that leads to inflammatory and or degenerative conditions affecting these structures the increasing pain superimposed on the chronic but unchanging weakness leads to progressive impairment of motor performance and adl i am perhaps biased by personal experience of having never seen a pps patient who was not limited in some way by pain i do not believe that pps patients have more rapid deterioration of motor units than non pps patients i e those with old polio of similar severity but without pps complaints slmr e mail jim zisfein factory com jim zisfein
sci.med	re post polio syndrome information needed please dn from nyeda cnsvax uwec edu david nye dn briefly this is a condition in which patients who have significant dn residual weakness from childhood polio notice progression of the dn weakness as they get older one theory is that the remaining motor dn neurons have to work harder and so die sooner if this theory were true the muscle biopsy would show group atrophy evidence of acute loss of enlarged motor units it doesn t instead the biopsy shows scattered angulated atrophic fibers this is more consistent with load shedding by chronically overworked motor neurons the neurons survive at the expense of increasingly denervated muscle slmr e mail jim zisfein factory com jim zisfein
sci.med	re food related seizures sharon paulson paulson tab larc nasa gov wrote once again we are waiting i have been thinking that it would be good to get to as large a group as possible to see if anyone has any experience with this kind of thing i know that members of the medical community are sometimes loathe to admit the importance that diet and foods play in our general health and well being anyway as you can guess i am worried sick about this and would appreciate any ideas anyone out there has sorry to be so wordy but i wanted to really get across what is going on here i don t know anything specifically but i have one further anecdote a colleague of mine had a child with a serious congenital disease tuberous sclerosis along with mental retardation comes a serious seizure disorder the parents noticed that one thing that would precipitate a seizure was a meal with corn in it i have always wondered about the connection and further about other dietary ingredients that might precipitate seizures other experiences would be interesting to hear about from netters david ozonoff md mph boston university school of public health dozonoff med itvax bu edu east concord st t c boston ma
sci.med	re eugenics subject re eugenics gordon banks writes probably within years a new type of eugenics will be possible maybe even sooner we are now mapping the human genome we will then start to work on manipulation of that genome using genetic engineering we will be able to insert whatever genes we want no breeding no hybrids etc the ethical question is should we two past problems with eugenics have been reducing the gene pool and defining the status of the eugenized inserting genes would not seem to reduce the gene pool unless the inserted genes later became transmissible to progeny then they may be able to crowd out garbage genes this may in the future become possible even if it does awareness of the need to maintain the gene pool would hopefully mean provisions will be made for saving genes that may come in handy later evidently the genes for sickle cell disease in equatorial africa and for diabetes in the hopi promoted survival in some conditions we don t really know what the future may hold for our environment the reduced wilderness and disease survival capacity of our relatively inbred domesticated animals comes to mind vulcanism nuclear winter ice age meteor impact new microbiological threats famine global warming etc etc are all conceivable therefore having as many genes as possible available is a good strategy for species survival of course the status of genetically altered individuals would start out as no different than anyone else s but if we could make philosopher kings with great bodies and long lives would we or they want to give them elevated status we could the romans did it with their kings without the benefits of such eugenics the race eventually realized and dealt with the problems which that caused but for a while it was a problem orwell introduced us to the notion of what might happen to persons genetically altered for more menial tasks but there is nothing new under the sun we treated slaves the same way for millennia before i see no inherent problem with gene therapy which avoids at least these problems humans have always had trouble having the virtue and wisdom to use any power that falls into their hands to good ends all the time that hasn t stopped the race as a whole yet many are the civilizations which have died from inability to adapt to environmental change however also many are the civilizations which have died from the abuse of their own power the ones which survived have hopefully learned a lesson from the fates of others and have survived by making better choices when their turns came not that i don t think that this gene altering power couldn t wipe us off the face of the earth or cause endless suffering nuclear power or global warming or whatever could and may still do that too the real issue is an issue of wisdom and virtue i personally don t think man has enough wisdom and virtue to pull this next challenge off any better than he did the for last few we as eugenists may make it an we may not if we don t i hope there are reservoirs of garbage people out in some backwater with otherwise long discarded garbage genes which will pull us through i believe that the real problem is and will probably always be the same man needs to accept input from the great spirit of god to overcome his lacks in the area of knowing how to use the power he has some men have and i believe all men may listen to and obey the still small voice of god in their hearts this is the way to begin to recieve the wisdom and virtue needed to escape the problems consequent to poor choices peoples have died out for many reasons the societies which failed to accept enough input from god to safely use the power they had developed have destroyed themselves and often others in the process it is self evident that the ones which survive today have either accepted enough input from the spirit to use their powers wisely enough to avoid or survive their own mistakes thus far or else haven t had enough power for long enough in summary i would say that the question of whether to use this new technology is really an ancient one and the answer in some ways hard in some ways easy is the same ancient answer it isn t the power it is the spirit sorry for the long post got carried away bob ruegg med unc edu
sci.med	re science and methodology was homeopathy tradition in article ls lnvinnrtb saltillo cs utexas edu turpin cs utexas edu russell turpin writes not imply that all their treatments are ineffective it does imply that those who rely on faulty methodology and reasoning are incapable of discovering which treatments are effective and which are not to start with no methodology or form of reasoning is infallible so there s a question of how much certainty we are willing to pay for in a given context insistence on too much rigor bogs science down completely and makes progress impossible expenditure of sufficiently large sums of money and amounts of time can sometimes overcome this on the other hand with too little rigor much is lost by basing work on results which eventually turn out to be false there is a morass of studies contradicting other studies and outsiders start saying you people call this science my opinion for what it s worth is that one sees both these phenomena happening simultaneously in some parts of psychology some subjective judgement is required to decide on the level of rigor appropriate for a particular investigation i don t believe it is ever possible to banish subjective judgement from science my second point though is that highly capable people can often make extremely reliable judgements about scientific validity even when using methodology considered inadequate by the usual standards i think this is true of many scientists and i think it is true of many who approach their discipline in a way that is not generally recognized as scientific within mathematics i think there are several examples especially before the twentieth century one conspicuous case is that of riemann who is famous for many theorems he stated but did not prove later mathematicians did prove them of course i think that for a good scientist empirical investigation is often not so much a matter of determining what is true and what s not as it is a matter of convincing other people people have proposed lots of incompatible definitions of science here but i think the ability to objectively convince others of the validity of one s results is an essential element not that one can necessarily do that at every step of the scientific process but i think that if one is not moving toward that goal then one is not doing science when a person other than a scientist is quite good at what he does and seems to be very successful at it i think that his judgements are also worthy of respect and that his assertions are well worth further investigation in article c by hd news hawaii edu i wrote namely is there really justification for the belief that science is a superior path to truth than non scientific approaches admittedly my question was not at all well posed a considerable amount of effort in a serious scholarly investigation such as i suggested would be required simply to formulate an appropriately specific question to try and answer the science i was thinking of in my question is the actual science currently practiced now in the last decade of the twentieth century i certainly wasn t thinking of some idealized science or the mere use of reason and observation one thing i had in mind in my suggestion was the question as to whether in many cases the subjective judgements of skilled and experienced practitioners might be more reliable than statistical studies since russell turpin seems to be much more familiar than i am with the study of scientific methodology perhaps he can tell us if there is any existing research related to this question in the arguments between behaviorists and cognitivists psychology seems less like a science than a collection of competing religious sects lady uhunix uhcc hawaii edu lady uhunix bitnet
sci.med	re eugenics thanks to tarl neustaedter of ma for kindly letting me know that my reference in prior post to orwell and should probably have been to huxley and brave new world sorry al bob ruegg med unc edu
sci.med	adult chicken pox i am and am recovering from a case of chicken pox which i contracted from my year old daughter i have quite a few of these little puppies all over my bod at what point am i no longer infectious my physician s office says when they are all scabbed over is this true is there any medications which can promote healing of the pox speed up healing please e mail replies and thanks in advance marc grant internet marcbg feenix metronet com pob amateur radio station n mei richardson tx voice fax
sci.med	re foreskin troubles this is generally called phimosis usually it is due to an inflammation and ca n be retracted in the physician s offfice rather eaaasily one should see a gp or in complicated cases a urologist
sci.med	re selective placebo ron roth recommends once you have your hypoglycemia confirmed through the proper channels you might consider ther following diet omitted ron what do you consider to be proper channels this sounds suspiciously like a blood chemistry glucose tolerance and the like suddenly chemistry exists you know perfectly well that this person can be saved needless trouble and expense with simple muscle testing and hair analysis to diagnose no confirm any aberrant physiology but then again maybe that s what you meantby proper channels were you able to understand dick king s post that of diseases is not thesame thing as of patients which was a reply to your inability to critically evaluate the statistic you cited from the new england journal of medicine couldyou figure out what is implied by the remark of course mds are ethically bound to not knowingly dispense placebos ron have you ever thought about why you never post in misc health alterna tive and insist instead upon insinuating your untrained non medical often delusional notions of health and disease into this forum i suspect from your apparent anger toward mds and heteropathic medicine that there may be an underlying father problem of course i can confirm this by surrogate muscle testing one of my patients while they ponder my theory to see if one of their previously weak indicator muscles strengthens or do you have reservations about my unique methods of diagnosis oh i forgot what you said in an earlier post neither am i concerned of whether or not my study designs meet your or anyone else s criteria of acceptance john badanes dc ca romdas uclink berkeley edu ideas
sci.med	image processing software for pc i am posting the following for my brother please post your replies or send him email to his address at the end of his message thank you my supervisor is looking for a image analysis software for ms dos we need something to measure lengths and areas on micrographs sometime in the future we may expand to do some densitometry for gels etc we ve found lots of ads and info for the jandel scientific products sigmascan and java but we have not been able to find any competing products we would appreciate any comments on these products and suggestions comments on other products we should consider thanks donald userdono mtsg ubc ca
sci.med	critique of pressure point massager as promised below is a personal critique of a pressure point massager i recently bought from the self care catalog i am very pleased with the results the catalog description is as follows the pressure point massager is an aggressive physical massager that actually kneads the tension out of muscles much like a professional shiatsu masseur the powerful motor drives two counter rotating thumbs that move in one inch orbits releasing tension in the neck back legs and arms pressure point massager a to order or receive a catalog call hours days or fax at note when i ordered the massager the item number was different and the price was not when i received it i glanced thru the newer catalog enclosed with it to see anything was different from the first one i was quite annoyed to see a difference in price i called them about it and the cust rep said that they had switched manufacturers although it looks and works exactly the same he told me to go ahead and return the first one and order the cheaper one using the price difference as a reason for return in fact since the newer ones might take a while to ship from the factory i received this one in days he told me i could use the one i already have until the new one arrives then return the old one very reasonable people i have long term neck shoulder and back pain if i were a building i would be described as structurally unsound i have stretches and exercises to do that help but the problem never really goes away if for whatever reason i do not exercise for a while illness not enough time lazy etc the muscles become quite stiff and painful and thus more prone to further strain even with exercise i sometimes require physical therapy to get back on track which st requires a doctor visit to get the prescription for p t the tension in my neck if not released eventually causes a headache sometimes confused with a sinus headache over my left eye when my physical therapist has massaged my neck and the sub occipital muscles in particular the knobby areas near the base of the skull the headache usually eased within a day although it hurts like hell to while it is being massaged i ordered this device because it seemed to be exactly what i was wishing someone would invent a machine that would massage not vibrate my neck and sub occipital muscles like my physical therapist has done in the past that i could use by myself no doctor visit or inconvenient p t appts for a week later would be needed to use it i could get up in the middle of the night and use it if necessary i have been using it for about a week or so now and love it the base unit is about a x rectangle about high with handles on each side and it plugs into an average outlet the two metal thumbs are about in diameter and protrude about above the base the thumbs are covered with a gray cloth that is non removable they are located more toward one end rather than centered see figure below they move in either clockwise or counter clockwise directions depending on which side of the switch is pushed and are very quiet it can be used from either side for instance the thumbs can be positioned at the base of the neck or the top of the neck depending on which direction you approach it for the neck head the user varies the amount of pressure used by if laying down allowing all or part of the full weight of the head and or neck to rest on the thumbs the handles can also be used if sitting or standing applying pressure with the arms wrists since my wrists are also impaired i m typing this over an extended period of time and i don t have someone living with me who can apply it laying down works well for me for my back i sit in a high backed kitchen chair position the massager behind me at whatever point i want massaged and lean back lightly or not so lightly against it the pressure of leaning back holds it in place if i want to massage the entire spine i simply move it down a few inches whenever i feel like it for my back this machine is far superior to use than the commonly used home made massager of tennis balls taped together with the balls position against a wall or door them over the spine and move the body up and down against them the tennis balls are better than nothing but difficult to use for very long especially if your quads are not in good shape and my long hair gets painfully in the way if i don t pin it up first as far as i m concerned the easier something like this is to use the more likely i ll use do it if there are multiple considerations hassles i m more likely to not bother with it not only has this machine helped with my headaches but my range of motion for my neck and back are greatly increased the first time i used it on my neck sub occipital muscles however i overdid it and pressed too hard against it which resulted in a very tender almost bruised area for a few days i laid off it for about days and applied ice which helped after that i was more gradual about applying pressure at this point the pain in the sub occipital area is now minimal while being massaged i also learned to use very light pressure on my lower back which is the most vulnerable point for me it also eased some painful knots of tension between my shoulder blades although again it took a few days of massaging just a few minutes at a time to really work it out i highly recommend this product if you have similar problems although i cannot vouch for its durability it seems pretty sturdy since i ve had it such a short time i plan to use it not only to ease tension but also to loosen the muscls before exercising and maybe after too i have been ill recently and not able to exercise much for a few weeks so this was very timely for me this is the st product i ve ordered from this company and only recently became aware of it thru a co worker the catalog states they have been in business since it contains quite a few health care products and while they appear to be more expensive than the average health care catalog products they also appear to be of much higher quality with more thought put into what they actually do definitely a step above some other ones i ve seen such as dr leonards health care catalog or mature wisdom i m only but have ended up on some geriatric type mailing lists no big surprise here i consider many of those products to be rip offs particularly targeted toward the elderly with dubious health benefits i apologize for the length of this but it s the kind of info i would like to know before ordering something thru the mail robin coutellier northern telecom mountain view ca internet robin ntmtv com uucp portal ntmtv robin
sci.med	re need advice with doctor patient relationship problem in article c l qb y athena cs uga edu mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington writes sounds as though his heart s in the right place but he is not adept at expressing it what you received was meant to be a profound apology apologies delivered by overworked shy people often come out like that his heart this jerk doesn t have a heart and it beats me why you re apologizing for him in my book behavior like this is unprofessional inexcusable and beyond the pale if he s overworked it s because he s too busy raking in the bucks more likely he just likes to push women around i d fire the s o b and get myself another doctor die welt ist alles was zerfall ist peter cash apologies to ludwig wittgenstein cash convex com
sci.med	placebo effects i know that the placebo effect is where a patient feels better or even gets better because of his her belief in the medicine and the doctor administering it is there also an anti placebo effect where the patient dislikes distrusts doctors and medicine and therefore doesn t get better or feel better in spite of the medicine is there an effect where the doctor believes so strongly in a medicine that he she sees improvement where the is none or sees more improvement than there is if so what is this effect called is there a reverse of the above effect where the doctor doesn t believe in a medicine and then sees less improvement than there is what would this effect be called have these effects ever been studied how common are these effects thank you in advance for all replies information is very valuable but dis information is much more common
sci.med	help looking for a medical journal article whiplash cervical pain hi i am not sure where to post this message please contact me if i m way off the mark on my wife went to her general practitioner doctor he mentioned an article from a medical journal that is of great interest to us he had read it in the previous three months but has been unable to find it again the article was about whiplash injury cervical pain it mentions the use of a mri magnetic resonance imagery machine as a diagnostic tool and the work of a neurosurgeon who relived cervical pain this article is most likely in an australian medical journal i very much want to obtain the name of the article journal and author because the case matches my wife we would very much appreciate anyone s help in this matter via email preferably gavin anderson email ganderson cmutual com au analyst programmer phone colonial mutual life aust acn fax some people never consciously discover their antipodes gavin anderson email ganderson cmutual com au analyst programmer phone colonial mutual life aust acn fax
sci.med	the andromeda strain just had the opportunity to watch this flick on a e some years since i saw it last i was very interested in the technology demonstrated in this film for handling infectious diseases and similar toxic substances clearly they faked a lot of the computer robotic technology certainly at the time it was made most of that was science fiction itself let alone the idea of a space germ quite coincidentally actually this is what got me wanted to see the movie again i watched a segment on the otherwise awful how d they do that dealing with a disease researcher at the cdc s top lab there was description of the elaborate security measures taken so that building will never be cracked so to speak by man or nature short of deliberate bombing from the air perhaps and the researchers used spacesuits similar to that in the film i m curious what people think about this film short of silly is such a facility technically feasible today as far as the plot and the crystalline structure that is not life as we know it that s a whole nother argument for rec arts sf tech or something next a waco update an ohio prison update a bosnia update a russian update an abortion update and a congressional update here on snn the standoff news network all news all standoff all day daniel a hartung dhartung chinet chinet com ask me about rotaract
sci.med	re h e l p m e desperate with some vd i can probably buy the tools and this solution somewhere but i don t know how to do injection by myself you may also want to buy a self injector or something like that my friend is diabetic you load the hyperdermic put it in a plastic case and set a spring to automatically push the needle into the skin and depress the plunger live from new york it s saturday night tonight s special guest lawrence silverberg from the state university of new york albany aka ls gemini albany edu
sci.med	re barbecued foods and health risk also don t forget that it s better for your health to enjoy your steak than to resent your sprouts mark mcwiggins hermes associates voice markmc halcyon com box seattle wa fax
sci.med	re barbecued foods and health risk from my reading of the popular and scientific literature i think that the benzopyrene from burned fat problem is probably real but very small compared to other kinds of risks this type of problem also occurs with stove top pan grilling one possible remedy i have read about is to take some vitamin c with your meal of barbecue or bacon e g this may make sense because vit c is an antioxidant which could counteract the adverse affect of some of the chemicals in question bon apetit sanford silverman opinions expressed here are my own american cyanamid sandy pt cyanamid com silvermans pt cyanamid com yeast is best
sci.med	immunotherapy for recurrent miscarriage following a series of miscarriages my wife was given a transfusion of my white cells the theory as i understand it is that there is some kind of immune blocking that prevents the body from attacking the pregnancy as it normally would a foreign body where this blocking is deficient the body evicts the intruder resulting in a miscarriage the white cells apparently enhance the blocking capability following the transfusion she successfully carried the next pregnancy to term and jake is now an active month old who cannot wait to walk we re now thinking about having another child but no one including the obgyn who supervised the first transfusion really seems to know whether or not the transfusion process needs to be repeated for successive pregnancies is there anyone in net land who has experience with this thanks gene and jane and jake p s i ve also posted this in misc kids
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in rec food cooking packer delphi gsfc nasa gov charles packer writes is there such a thing as msg monosodium glutamate sensitivity i saw in the ny times sunday that scientists have testified before an fda advisory panel that complaints about msg sensitivity are superstition anybody here have experience to the contrary i know that there is msg sensitivity when i eat foods with msg i get very thirsty and my hands swell and get a terrible itchy rash i first experienced this problem when i worked close to chinatown and ate chinese food almost everyday for lunch now i can t tolerate msg at all i can notice immediately when i have eaten any i try to avoid msg completely interesting fact though is that all three of my children started experiencing the exact same rash on their hands i couldn t understand why because i don t msg in cooking and we ask for no msg when we do eat chinese i still love it after some investigation i knew that oodles of noodles where one of their favorite foods one of the main ingredients in the flavor packets is msg now i look at all labels you would be surprised at places you find msg betty harvey harvey oasys dt navy mil david taylor model basin adp networking and communication assessment carderock division branch naval surface warfare code center bethesda md dtmb cd nswc fax
sci.med	re science and methodology was homeopathy tradition in article apr cs rochester edu fulk cs rochester edu mark fulk writes i m not familiar with the history of this experiment although arguably i should be for a brief but pretty detailed account try hempel s philosophy of natural science i think that it is enough if his contemporaries found the result surprising that s not what i d quibble about what i d like to know are toricelli s reasons for doing his experiment not the post hoc constructed reasons but the thoughts in his head as he considered the problem it may be this smacks a bit of ideology the supposition being that toricelli s subsequent descriptions of his reasoning are not veridical it gets dangerously close to an unfalsifiable view of the history and methodology of science if we deny that no subsequent reports of experimenters are reliable descriptions of their real reasons impossible to know much about toricelli s thoughts that s too bad if it is so one of root bernstein s services to science is that he has gone rooting about in pasteur s and fleming s and other people s notes and has discovered some surprising clues about their motivations pasteur never publicly admitted his plan to create mirror image life but the dreams are right there in his notebooks finally public after many years ready for anyone to read and i and my friends often have the most ridiculous reasons for pursuing results one of my best came because i was mad at a colleague for a poorly written claim i disproved the claim of course toricelli s case may be an example of a rarety where the fantasy not only motivates the experiment but turns out to be right in the end but my point is that this type of case is not a rarity in fact i was going to point to pasteur as yet another rather common example particularly the studies on spontaneous generation and fermentation i will readily concede that ridiculous reasons can play an important role in how scientists spend their time but one should not confuse motivation with methodology nor suppose that ridiculous reasons provide the impetus in the majority of cases based on relatively infrequent anecdotal evidence gary h merrill principal systems developer c compiler development sas institute inc sas campus dr cary nc sasghm theseus unx sas com mcnc sas sasghm
sci.med	what s the difference between an m d and a d o my wife and i are in the process of selecting a pediatrician for our first child due june th we interviewed a young doctor last week and were very impressed with her however i discovered that she is actually not an medical doctor m d but rather a doctor of osteopathy d o what s the difference i believe the pediatrician i went to for many years was a d o and he didn t seem different from any other doctor i ve seen over the years my dictionary says that osteopathy is a medical therapy that emphasizes manipulative techniques for correcting somatic abnormalities thought to cause disease and inhibit recovery jeez this sounds like chiropractic i remember getting shots and medicine from my pediatrician d o and don t remember any manipulative techniques perhaps someone could enlighten me as to the real practical difference between an m d and a d o also i m interesting in hearing any opinions on choosing a pediatrician who follows one or the other medical philosophy readers of sci med please respond directly to sbrenner attmail com i do not read this group regularly and probably won t see your response if you just post it here sorry for the cross posting but i m hoping there s some expertise here a t d h v a a n n k c s e scott d brenner at t consumer communications services sbrenner attmail com basking ridge new jersey
sci.med	re barbecued foods and health risk in article cup portal com mmm cup portal com mark robert thorson writes this reminds me of the last graham kerr cooking show i saw today he smoked meat on the stovetop in a big pot he used a strange technique i d never seen before he took a big pot with lid and placed a tray in it made from aluminum foil the tray was about the size and shape of a typical coffee table ash tray made by crumpling a sheet of foil around the edges in the tray he placed a couple spoonfuls of brown sugar a similar quantity of brown rice he said any rice will do the contents of two teabags of earl grey tea and a few cloves on top of this was placed an ordinary aluminum basket type steamer with two chicken breasts in it the lid was put on and the whole assembly went on the stovetop at high heat for or minutes later he removed what looked like smoked chicken breasts what surprises and concerns me are no wood chips where does the smoke flavor come from about or years ago i remember hearing that carmel color obtained by caramelizing sugar a common coloring and flavoring agent had been found to be carcinogenic i believe they injected it under the skin of rats or something if the results were conclusive caramel color would not be legal in the u s yet it is still being used was the initial research result found to be incorrect or what about or years ago i remember earl grey tea being implicated as carcinogenic because it contains oil of bergamot an extract from the skin of a type of citrus fruit does anyone know whatever happened with that story if it were carcinogenic earl grey tea could not have it as an additive yet it apparently continues to do so wrt natural wood smoke i ve smoking a duck right now as it happens i ve noticed that a heavily smoked food item will have an unpleasant tangy taste when eaten directly out of the smoker if the smoke has only recently stopped flowing i find the best taste to be had by using dry wood chips getting lots of smoke right up at the beginning of the cooking process then slowly barbequing for hours and hours without adding additional wood chips my theory is that the unpleasant tangy molecules are low molecular weight stuff like terpenes and that the smoky flavor molecules are some sort of larger molecule more similar to tar the long barbeque time after the initial intensive smoke drives off the low molecular weight stuff just leaving the flavor behind does anyone know if my theory is correct i also remember hearing that the combustion products of fat dripping on the charcoal and burning are carcinogenic for that reason and because it covers the product with soot and some unpleasant tanginess i only grill non drippy meats like prawns directly over hot coals i do stuff like this duck by indirect heat i have a long rectangular weber and i put the coals at one end and the meat at the other end the fat drops directly on the floor below the meat and next time i use the barbeque i make the fire in that end to burn off the fat and help ignite the coals and yet another reason i ve heard not to smoke or barbeque meat is that smoked cured meat like pork sausage and bacon contains nitrosamines which are carcinogenic i m pretty sure this claim actually has some standing don t know about the others an amusing incident i recall was the duncan hines scandal when it was discovered that the people who make duncan hines cake mix were putting a lot of ethylene dibromide edb into the cake mix to suppress weevils this is a fumigant which is known to be carcinogenic the guy who represented the company in the press conference defended himself by saying that the risk from eating duncan hines products every day for a year would be equal to the cancer risk from eating two charcoal broiled steaks what a great analogy when i first heard that my immediate reaction was we should make that a standard unit one charcoal broiled steak would be equivalent to duncans i don t understand the assumption that because something is found to be carcinogenic that it would not be legal in the u s i think that naturally occuring substances excluding controlled substances are pretty much unregulated in terms of their use as food food additives or other consumption it s only when the chemists concoct sp an ingredient that it falls under fda regulations otherwise if they really looked closely they would find a reason to ban almost everything how in the world do you suppose it s legal to consume tobacco products which probably should be banned dave allen space science engr ctr uw madison
sci.med	re placebo effects in article aa calcom socal com daniel prince f n z calcom socal com daniel prince writes is there an effect where the doctor believes so strongly in a medicine that he she sees improvement where the is none or sees more improvement than there is if so what is this effect called is there a reverse of the above effect where the doctor doesn t believe in a medicine and then sees less improvement than there is what would this effect be called have these effects ever been studied how common are these effects thank you in advance for all replies these effects are a very real concern in conducting studies of new treatments researchers try to limit this kind of effect by performing studies that are blind in various ways some of these are o the subjects of the study do not know whether they receive a placebo or the test treatment i e whether they are in the control group or the test group o those administering the treatment do not know which subjects receive a placebo or the test treatment o those evaluating individual results do not know which subjects receive a placebo or the test treatment obviously at the point at which the data is analyzed one has to differentiate the test group from the control group but the analysis is quasi public the researcher describes it and presents the data on which it is based so that others can verify it it is worth noting that in biological studies where the subjects are animals such as mice there were many cases of skewed results because those who performed the study did not blind themselves it is not considered so important to make mice more ignorant than they already are though it is important that in all respects except the one tested the control and test groups are treated alike russell
sci.med	re eye dominance in article c e g world std com rsilver world std com richard silver writes is there a right eye dominance eyedness as there is an overall right handedness in the population i mean do most people require less lens corrections for the one eye than the other if so what kinds of percentages can be attached to this there is eye dominance same as handedness and usually for the same side it has nothing to do with refractive error however gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re surgery of damaged tendons and median nerve in article bhatt apr wesley src honeywell com bhatt src honeywell com writes i thought i will explore the net wisdom with the following questions is there any better way to control the pain than what the surgeon suggested how long will such pain last will the pain recur in the future no one can answer that if she gets reflex sympathetic dystrophy it could last forever just hope she does not most don t do damaged partially cut tendons heal completely and is all of the finger strength regained how long does it take for the complete healing process sometimes they do and sometimes they don t you just have to do the best job you can reattaching and hope you should know in a few months gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re food related seizures in article apr spdcc com dyer spdcc com steve dyer writes newsgroups sci med path news larc nasa gov saimiri primate wisc edu zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu cs utexas edu uunet think com hsdndev spdcc dyer from dyer spdcc com steve dyer organization s p dyer computer consulting cambridge ma references uupcb factory com cup portal com date sat apr gmt lines in article cup portal com mmm cup portal com mark robert thorson writes i remember hearing a few years back about a new therapy for hyperactivity which involved aggressively eliminating artificial coloring and flavoring from the diet the theory which was backed up by interesting anecdotal results is that certain people are just way more sensitive to these chemicals than other people i don t remember any connection being made with seizures but it certainly couldn t hurt to try an all natural diet yeah the feingold diet is a load of crap children diagnosed with add who are placed on this diet show no improvement in their intellectual and social skills which in fact continue to decline of course the parents who are enthusiastic about this approach lap it up at the expense of their children s development so much for the value of interesting anecdotal results people will believe anything if they want to steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima harvard rayssd linus m c spdcc dyer thanks for all the interest in this problem of mine i don t think it is a reaction to sugar or junk food per se since kathryn has never shown any signs of hyperactivity or changes in behavior in response to food she has always been very calm and dare i say a neat smart kid the fact that this happened while eating two sugar coated cereals made by kellog s makes me think she might be having an allergic reaction to something in the coating or the cereals of the four of us in our immediate family kathryn shows the least signs of the hay fever running nose itchy eyes etc but we have a lot of allergies in our family history including some weird food allergies nuts mushrooms anyway our next trip is to an endocrinologist to check out the body chemistry but so far no more sugar coated cereals and no more seizures either every day that goes by without one makes me heave a sigh of relief thanks again sharon paulson s s paulson larc nasa gov nasa langley research center bldg d mailstop work hampton virginia home
sci.med	re organ donation and transplantation fact sheet in article apr lmpsbbs comm mot com dougb ecs comm mot com writes my wife cannot donate blood because she has been to a malarial region in the past three years in fact she tried to have her bone marrow typed and they wouldn t even do that why the fda i believe rules say no blood or blood products donations from anyone who has been in a malarial area for years i was a platelet donor until my thailand trip and my blood bank was very disappointed to find out they couldn t use me for years when the secretary of state asked me if i wanted to donate my organs i said no because i figured that no one would want them given my history was i correct not necessarily the same rules may not apply to organ donation as to blood donation in fact i m sure they don t gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re mississippi river water and catfish safe in article apr zeus calpoly edu dfield flute calpoly edu infospunj dan field writes i ve been invited to spend a couple weeks this summer rafting down the mississippi my journey partners want to live off of river water and catfish along the route should i have any concerns about pollution or health risks in doing this you d have to purify the river water first i m not sure how practical that is with the mississippi you d better check with health agencies along the way to see if there are toxic chemicals in the river if it is just microorganisms those can be filtered or killed but you may need activated charcoal or other means to purify from chemicals better be same than sorry obviously drinking the river without processing it is likely to make you sick from bacteria and parasites gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re ob gyn residency in article apr cnsvax uwec edu nyeda cnsvax uwec edu david nye writes i believe it is illegal for a residency to discriminate against fmgs i is that true i know some that won t even interview fmgs most programs discriminate in that given an fmg equally qualified as an american they will take the american what rights do they actually have does it matter if they are us citizens most are not we have had good luck with fmgs and bad luck some of our very best residents have been fmgs also our very worst as it turns out the worst fmgs are often us citizens that studied in off shore medical schools of the residents fired for incompetence in the years i ve been here in my department all have been fmgs were us citizens who studied in guadalajara was a us citizen but was trained in the soviet union and one was philipina unfortunately all are now practicing medicine somewhere of them in neurology after having been picked up by other programs in psychiatry and the other in emergency medicine gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	liver spots what causes those little brown spots on older people s hands are they called liver spots because they re sort of liver colored or do they indicate some actual liver dysfunction die welt ist alles was zerfall ist peter cash apologies to ludwig wittgenstein cash convex com
sci.med	re the andromeda strain in article c pvp l chinet chi il us dhartung chinet chi il us dan hartung writes just had the opportunity to watch this flick on a e some years since i saw it last wow the wwii channel did something not wwii i was very interested in the technology demonstrated in this film for handling infectious diseases and similar toxic substances clearly they faked a lot of the computer robotic technology certainly at the time it was made most of that was science fiction itself let alone the idea of a space germ the graphics capabilities of the computers were very faked for movie audiences who have not ability or patience with numbers the book was more realistic in that respect in all respects actually the robotics are still out of range but not impossible quite coincidentally actually this is what got me wanted to see the movie again i watched a segment on the otherwise awful how d they do that dealing with a disease researcher at the cdc s top lab there was description of the elaborate security measures taken so that building will never be cracked so to speak by man or nature short of deliberate bombing from the air perhaps and the researchers used spacesuits similar to that in the film sf and i ve always wondered how crichton escapes this classification is usually ahead of science in both prediction and precaution nasa s decontaimination processes were supposedly taken to prevent sf story disasters i mean nasa scientists were often sf readers and sometimes writers and felt pre warned by their reading i m curious what people think about this film short of silly is such a facility technically feasible today i think the film still holds up among the best of sf films but that isn t saying a whole lot as far as the plot and the crystalline structure that is not life as we know it that s a whole nother argument for rec arts sf tech or something yep
sci.med	re eumemics was eugenics probably within years it will be possible to disassemble and re assemble our bodies at the molecular level not only will flawless cosmetic surgery be possible but flawless cosmetic psychosurgery what will it be like to store all the prices of shelf priced bar coded goods in your head and catch all the errors they make in the store s favor at safeway what will it be like to mentally edit and spell check your responses to the questions posed by a phone caller selling vacation time share options you are absolutely daft no flame required you lack a brain sic memes are the basic units of culture as opposed to genes which are the units of genetics well at least you re educated it seems but give credit where credit is due to richard dawkin s the meme is a meme he invented zone
sci.med	hernia a bit more than a year ago a hernia in my right groin was discovered it had produced a dull pain in that area the hernia was repaired using the least intrusive orthoscopic method and a plug and patch the doctor considered the procedure a success a few months later the same pain returned the doctor said that he could find nothing wrong in the area of the hernia repair now the pain occurs more often my gp couldn t identify any specific problem the surgen who performed the original procedure now says that yes there is a new hernia in the same area and he said that he has to cut into the area for the repair this time my question to the net is there a nonintrusive method to determine if in fact there is a hernia or if the pain is from something else steve heffner
sci.med	candida albicans what is it someone i know has recently been diagnosed as having candida albicans a disease about which i can find no information apparently it has something to do with the body s production of yeast while at the same time being highly allergic to yeast can anyone out there tell me any more about it thanks david partain davpa ida liu se ida university of link oping work phone s link oping sweden telefax
sci.med	re eye dominance in article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu gordon banks writes in article c e g world std com rsilver world std com richard silver writes is there a right eye dominance eyedness as there is an overall right handedness in the population i mean do most people require less lens corrections for the one eye than the other if so what kinds of percentages can be attached to this there is eye dominance same as handedness and usually for the same side it has nothing to do with refractive error however i recall reading seeing that former baseball star chris chambliss hitting abilities were in part attributed to a combination of left handedness right eye dominance
sci.med	re barbecued foods and health risk in article apr clpd kodak com rich young young serum kodak com writes stuff deleted have to consume unrealistically large quantities of barbecued meat at a time i have to confess that this is one of my few unfulfilled ambitions no matter how much i eat it still seems realistic don mackie his opinion
sci.med	re quality control in medicine in article blue cis pitt edu kenneth gilbert kxgst pitt edu writes situation qa activities are a routine part of every hospital s administrative function and are required by accreditation agencies there are even entire publications devoted to qa issues indeed i spend about of my time dealing with quality stuff it is a hot number two journals worth looking at are quality review bulletin pub joint commission on accreditation of healthcare organizations one renaissance boulevard oakbrook terrace il quality in health care bmj publishing group box no b kennebunkport me don mackie his opinions um anesthesiology will disavow
sci.med	re science and methodology was homeopathy tradition i think that part of the problem is that i have proposed a definition of science that i intended to be interpreted broadly and that lee lady has interpreted fairly narrowly my definition is this science is the investigation of the empirical that avoids mistakes in reasoning and methodology discovered from previous work lee lady writes i don t think that science should be defined in a way that some of the activities that lead to really important science namely thinking and informal exploration are not recognized as scientific work unless one classifies thinking and informal exploration as a mistake they fall under my definition i hope no one would consider speculation thinking and informal exploration as unscientific in article c nasf mh news hawaii edu lady uhunix uhcc hawaii edu lee lady writes seriously i m not sure whether i misjudged you or not in one respect i still have a major problem though with your insistence that science is mainly about avoiding mistakes here is where i think we are talking at cross purposes it is not clear to me that the kind of definition i have proposed should be taken as describing what science is mainly about consider for example a definition of invertebrates as all animals lacking a backbone this fairly tells what is an invertebrate and what is not an invertebrate but it hardly tells you what invertebrates are all about one can read this definition and still not know that of all animal species are invertebrates that invertebrates possess a remarkably broad range of form that some invertebrate groups such as insects and nematodes are ubiquitous in all ecosystems etc in short knowing the definition of invertebrates does not tell one what they are mainly about the misunderstanding here is my fault i did not give sufficient context for people to understand my proposed definition okay so let s see if we agree on this first of all there are degrees of certainty it might be appropriate for instance to demand carefully controlled trials before we accept as absolute scientific truth to the extent that there is any such thing the effectiveness of a certain treatment on the other hand highly favorable clinical experience even if uncontrolled can be adequate to justify a preliminary judgement that a treatment is useful secondly it makes sense to be more tolerant in our standards of evidence for a pronounced effect than for one that is marginal i agree on both counts as an example of the second it would only take a few cases of curing rabies to convince most veterinarians that a treatment was effective despite a lack of controls as to the first i do not think it is useful to talk about absolute scientific truth i think it is more useful to talk about the kinds of evidence that various claims have and the kinds of evidence in particular fields that in the past have proven faulty or reliable the latter is obviously a matter of degree and in each field practitioners try to discover the relevance of different kinds of evidence one of the primary mistakes that marks the advocacy of an idea as psuedo science is that the advocacy lacks any sense of proportion regarding the kinds of evidence related to the proposed claim the kinds of evidence that are actually relevant to it and the historical reasons in the field that certain kinds of evidence are given more weight than others it is perfectly alright to speculate i have read quite a few refereed papers that speculated left and right but the authors were careful to identify the notions as speculative to list what little evidence was presently available for them and to describe how research could proceed to either put the notion on more firm footing or to uncover its problems often what distinguishes whether a paper of this sort passes muster is the thoughtfulness with which the author sets the context and paves the way for future work it is in this area that many proponents of speculative ideas fail the folks over in sci psychology have a hundred and one excuses not to make this simple test they claim that only an elaborate outcome study will be satisfactory a study of the sort that nlp practitioners many of whom make a barely marginal living from their practice can ill afford to do most of them are also just plain not interested because the whole idea seems frivolous and since they re not part of the scientific establishment they have no tangible rewards to gain from scientific acceptance i think a lot of scientists steer away from things that deserving or not garner a patina of kookiness when proponents of some practice see no value in more careful investigation of that practice that sets alarms ringing in many researchers minds this is unfortunate because there is undoubtedly some intersection between things that are worth investigating and things that are advocated by those who seem careless or unreasonable in their advocacy on the other hand i can understand why many scientists would just as soon select other directions for research as gordon banks has pointed out no one wants to become this generation s rhine one academic in sci psychology said that it would be completely unscientific for him to test the phobia cure since it hasn t been described in a scientific journal i think this is absurd actually at least one fairly careful academic study has been done with favorable results but it s apparently not acceptable because it s a doctoral dissertation and not published in a refereed journal i wonder why the results were not published in my field dissertation results are typically summarized in papers that are submitted to journals often the papers are accepted for publication before the dissertation is finished this certainly eases one s defense finally i hope lee lady will forgive me from commenting either on nlp or the discussion of it in sci psychology i know little about either and so have nothing to offer russell
sci.med	re too many mris in article apr kestrel edu king reasoning com dick king writes i recall reading somewhere during my youth in some science popularization book that whyle isotope changes don t normally affect chemistry a consumption of only heavy water would be fatal and that seeds watered only with heavy water do not sprout does anyone know about this i also heard this i always thought it might make a good eposide of columbo for someone to be poisoned with heavy water it wouldn t show up in any chemical test
sci.med	the reseaching of starvation i am very interested in investigations of starvation for improving health i am the young russian reseacher and have highest medical education and expierence in reseach work in biological field and would like to work on this problem can anybody send me the adresses of the hospitals or medical centers where scientific problems of human starvation for the health are investigated also i would like to set scientific contacts with colleagues who deals with investigations in this field i would be very appreciated anyone reply me pls contact by post russia moscow region puschino p o box for kravchenko n or by e mail kutuzova venus iteb serpukhov su thank you advance natalja kravchenko
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article apr spdcc com dyer spdcc com steve dyer writes in article apr cunews carleton ca wcsbeau alfred carleton ca opirg writes there has been no hard info provided about msg making people ill that s the point after all why don t you just look it up in the merk or check out the medical dictionary cite which a doctor mentioned earlier in this thread that s because these peer reviewed studies are not addressing the effects of msg in people they re looking at animal models you can t walk away from this and start ranting about gloom and doom as if there were any documented deleterious health effects demonstrated in humans note that i wouldn t have any argument with a statement like noting that animal administration has pro duced the following blah blah we must be careful about its use in humans this is precisely not what you said among others see olney s excitotoxic food aditives relevance of animal studies to human safety neurobehav toxicol teratol vol i m sure peta would love to hear your arguments tests have been done on rhesus monkeys as well i have never seen a study where the mode of administration was intra ventricular the glu and asp were administered orally some studies used iv and sc intra ventricular is not a normal admin method for food tox studies for obvious reasons you must not have read the peer reviewed works that i referred to or you would never have come up with this brain injection bunk it most certainly is for neurotoxicology you know studies of glutamate involve more than food science whose talking about food science what is this comment supposed to mean neurotoxicology and tratology brain research nature progress in brain research all fine food science journals pardon me but where are you getting this from have you read the journals have you done a thorough literature search so point us to the studies in humans please i m familiar with the literature and i ve never seen any which relate at all to olney s work in animals and the effects of glutamate on neurons then you would know that olney himself has casually referred to chinese restaurant syndrome in a few articles why don t you point us to some studies maybe then this exchange could be productive the point is exceeding the window of course they re amino acids note that people with pku cannot tolerate any phenylalanine well actually they have to tolerate some phenylalanine it s a essential amino acid they just try to get as little as is healthy without producing dangerous levels of phenylalanine and its metabolites in the blood they re unable to metabolise it olney s research compared infant human diets specifically the amount of freely available glu in mother s milk versus commercial baby foods vs typical lunch items from the standard american diet such as packaged soup mixes he found that one could exceed the projected safety margin for infant humans by at least four fold in a single meal of processed foods mother s milk was well below the effective dose goodness i m not saying that it s good to feed infants a lot of glutamate supplemented foods it s just that this projected safety margin is a construct derived from animal models and given that you can prove anything you like we re talking prudent policy in infant nutrition here yet you re misrepresenting it as received wisdom who said anything about received wisdom there is no question that orally administered doses of msg are capable of destroying nearly all neurons in the arcuate nucleus of the hypothalamus and the median eminence these areas are responsible for the production of hormones critical to normal neuroendocrine function and the normal development of the vertabrate organism humans are vertebrates now what pray tell do you think will happen when the area of the brain necessary for the normal rhythm of gonadotropin release is missing are you trying to say that humans have no need of their pituitary anh and me of that part of the brain that is responsible for controlling the realease albeit indirectly of estradiol and testosterone how do you expect anyone to do the studies on this it s unethical to sacrifice humans to check out what effects chronic acute etc doses of these compounds are having on the brain tissue in humans the food industry knows this that s why the animal model is used in medicine and psych if you re talking about straight sensitivity it would be useful to define the term there are plenty of studies on psychoneuroimmunology showing the link between attitude and physiology i suspect we may be arguing about separate things only adult sensitivities you and late occuring sequelae of childhood ingestion and its implication for adults me certainly the doses for excitotoxicity in adults are considerably larger than for the young but the additivity of glu and asp and their copious and increased presence in modern processed foods jointly and their hidden presence in hvp necessitates extreme caution why would anyone want to eat compounds which have been shown to markedly perturb the endocrine system in adults the main point is blood levels attained and oral doses would likely have to be greater than sc between who over what i would be most interested in seeing you provide peer reviewed non food industry funded citations to articles disputing that msg has no effects whatsoever you mean asserting you re being intellectually dishonest or just plain confused because you re conflating reports which do not necessarily have anything to do with each other olney s reports would argue a potential for problems in human infants but that s not to say that this says anything whatsoever about the use of msg in most foods nor does he provide any studies in humans which indicate any deleterious effects for obvious reasons it says nothing about msg s contribtion to the phenomenon of the chinese restaurant syndrome it says nothing about the frequent inability to replicate anecdotal reports of msg sensitivity in the lab olney s work provides a putative causal mechanism for some sensitivities terry epelbaum and martin have shown that orally administered msg causes changes in normal gonadotropic hormone fluctutations in adults glu also was found to induce immediate and persistant supression of rhythmic gh secretion and to induce rapid and transient release of prolactin in adults chronically exposed to msg gh is responsible not only for control of growth during development but also converts glycogen into glucose could this be the cause of headaches i don t know dyer ursa major spdcc com hmm com why am i not surprised dianne murray wcsbeau ccs carleton ca probably one of the dumber remarks you ve made if you had read olney s review article especially the remarks i already quoted in an earlier post you would know to what i was alluding may i ask exactly for whom you do computer consulting
sci.med	re frequent nosebleeds in article apr freenet carleton ca ab freenet carleton ca robert allison writes i have between and nosebleeds each week as a result of a genetic predisposition to weak capillary walls osler weber rendu fortunately each nosebleed is of short duration does anyone know of any method to reduce this frequency my younger brothers each tried a skin transplant thigh to nose lining but their nosebleeds soon returned i ve seen a reference to an herb called rutin that is supposed to help and i d like to hear of experiences with it or other techniques my year son is so plagued lots of vaseline up his nose each night seems to keep it under control but let him get bopped there and he ll recur for days also allergies colds dry air all seem to contribute but again the vaseline or a d ointment or neosporin all seem to keep them from recurring bev zalan
sci.med	selective placebo k king reasoning com dick king writes k k rr ron roth rose com ron roth wrote k rr otoh who are we kidding the new england medical journal in k rr ran the heading ninety percent of diseases are not treatable by k rr drugs or surgery which has been echoed by several other reports k rr no wonder mds are not amused with alternative medicine since k rr the magic of the placebo effect would award alternative k rr practitioners twice the success rate of conventional medicine k k of diseases is not the same thing as of patients k k in a world with one curable disease that strikes people and nine k incurable diseases which strikes one person each medical science will cure k of the patients and report that of diseases have no therapy k k a disease would be counted among the untreatable if nothing better than k a placebo were known of course mds are ethically bound to not knowingly k dispense placebos k k dk hmmm even without the at the end i didn t think anyone was going to take the mathematics or statistics of my post seriously i only hope that you had the same thing in mind with your post otherwise you would need at least two s at the end to help anyone understand your calculations above ron rosereader p this mind intentionally left blank rosemail usenet rose media hamilton
sci.med	re barbecued foods and health risk while in grad school i remember a biochemistry friend of mine working with heat shock proteins apparently burning protein will induce changes in he dna whether these changes survive the denaturing that occurs during digestion i don t know but i never eat burnt food because of this also many woods contain toxins as they are burnt it would seem logical that some may volatilise and get into the bbqed food again i don t know if these toxins antifungal and anti woodeater compounds would survive the rather harsh conditions of the stomach and intestine and then would they be able to cross the intestinal mucosa maybe someone with more biochemical background than myself which is almost anyone can shed some light on heat shock proteins and the toxins that may be in the wood used to make charcoal and bbq anne marie rousseau e mail rousseaua immunex com what i say has nothing to do with immunex
sci.med	krillean photography i think that s the correct spelling i am looking for any information supplies that will allow do it yourselfers to take krillean pictures i m thinking that education suppliers for schools might have a appartus for sale but i don t know any of the companies any info is greatly appreciated in case you don t know krillean photography to the best of my knowledge involves taking pictures of an most of the time organic object between charged plates the picture will show energy patterns or spikes around the object photographed and depending on what type of object it is the spikes or energy patterns will vary one might extrapolate here and say that this proves that every object within the universe as we know it has its own energy signature d i s c l a i m e r i can neither confirm nor deny any opinions expressed in this article directly reflect my own personal or political views and furthermore if they did i would not be at liberty to yield such an explanation of these alleged opinions
sci.med	re food related seizures my comments about the feingold diet have no relevance to your daughter s purported frostedflakes related seizures i can t imagine why you included it steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima harvard rayssd linus m c spdcc dyer
sci.med	re eye dominance in article c e g world std com rsilver world std com richard silver writes is there a right eye dominance eyedness as there is an overall right handedness in the population i mean do most people require less lens corrections for the one eye than the other if so what kinds of percentages can be attached to this i have a long sighted eye and a short sighted eye my right eye tends to cut out when i look at distant things my left eye when i am close up i had specs to balance things up a bit but could do without them i thought that one way or another i would always be able to see clearly unfortunately middle age is rearing its ugly head and i can no longer see close up objects clearly maybe it s just that my arms are getting shorter the floggings will continue until morale improves pchurch swell actrix gen nz pat churchill wellington new zealand
sci.med	re adult chicken pox in article c pm o bdo feenix metronet com marcbg feenix metronet com marc grant writes all over my bod at what point am i no longer infectious my physician s office says when they are all scabbed over is this true yes is there any medications which can promote healing of the pox speed up healing acyclovir started in the first days probably speeds recovery and decreases the formation of new pox david rind rind enterprise bih harvard edu
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition i have heard that epileptic patients go into seizures if they eat anything with msg added this may have something to do with the excitotoxicity of neurons fm
sci.med	re eye dominance nyeda cnsvax uwec edu david nye writes reply to rsilver world std com richard silver is there a right eye dominance eyedness as there is an overall right handedness in the population i mean do most people require less lens corrections for the one eye than the other if so what kinds of percentages can be attached to this thanks there is an eyedness analogous to handedness but it has nothing to do with refractive error to see whether you are right or left eyed roll up a sheet of paper into a tube and hold it up to either eye like a telescope the eye that you feel more comfortable putting it up to is your dominant eye refractive error is often different in the two eyes but has no correlation with handedness david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire wi this is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities bertrand russell what do you mean more comfortable putting it up to that seems a bit hard to evaluate at least for me it is stare straight point with both hands together and clasp so that only the pointer fingers are pointing straight forward to a a spot on the wall about eight feet away first stare at the spot with both eyes open now close your left eye now open your left eye now close your right eye now open your right eye if the image jumped more when you closed your right eye you are right eye dominant if the image jumped more when you closed your left eye you are left eye dominant deantha
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition as nobody in the food industry has even bothered to address my previous question why do you need to put msg in almost every food i must assume that my wife s answer is closer to the truth than i hoped it was she believes that msg is added to food to cause people to eat more of it and not quit when they shoud be sated to put it a different way she believes that for some people msg causes them to act toward food like an addict eat all the chips chow down on several packages of noodle soup you get the idea if she is right then the moral and ethical standards of the food chemical and regulatory groups need to be addressed can msg be considered a conditioning substance not addictive but sort of habit forming this brings up a side question of mine i have noticed that cats my children s and my parent s seem to fixate on a particular brand of pet food the cat will eat any product within one brand and not any other brand i have wondered if this is not a case of preference but some sort of chemical training or addiction my questions for the net are does the fda regulate the contents of pet food is it allowed for pet food to contain addictive or conditioning substances is msg put in pet food i speak for myself and not motorola walter lundby
sci.med	re krillean photography in article apr unlv edu todamhyp charles unlv edu brian m huey writes i think that s the correct spelling the proper spelling is kirlian it was an effect discoverd by s kirlian a soviet film developer in as i recall the coronas visible are ascribed to static discharges and chemical reactions between the organic material and the silver halides in the films tarl neustaedter stratus computer tarl sw stratus com marlboro mass disclaimer my employer is not responsible for my opinions
sci.med	intravenous antibiotics i recently had a case of shingles and my doctors wanted to give me intravenous acyclovir it was a pain finding iv sites in my arms can i have some facts about how advantageous it is to give intravenous antibiotics rather than oral marty
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition betty harvey writes i am not a researcher or a medical person but it amazes me that when they can t find a scientific or a known fact they automatically assume that the reaction is psychological it is mind boggling this simply stated is a result of the bankrupt ethics in the healthcare and scientific medicine industries america is fed up with the massive waste and fraud that is costing us of our gnp to support these industries while delivering marginal health care to the community unfortunately the clinton plan in whatever form it takes will probably cost us an even greater sum bleah steve
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article apr sco com evanh sco com evan hunt writes in article apr iscnvx lmsc lockheed com sharen iscnvx lmsc lockheed com sharen a rund writes restaurants advertize no msg many restaurants that feature salad bars use msg to keep the veggies looking fresh longer also a number this brings up an important question for me could pre made salads the kind sold in supermarkets have msg added without mentioning it legally i mean anyone know what the law is in this area steve dyer points out that sharen was probably thinking of sulfites but the question still stands evan hunt asst editor the web for more information about the web e mail to evanh sco com
sci.med	re krillean photography i seem to recall that there was an article in radio electronics about this subject in fact i have a copy of the article in front of me but i can t find anywhere in the article a refrence as to what month it was in the system they describe uses an automobile ignition coil for the high voltage the article even includes some information on what kind of film to use and where to get it hope this helps joseph m krzeszewski ski wpi wpi edu
sci.med	re how about a crash program in basic immunological research in article ky b uucp km ky b pgh pa us ken mitchum writes as a physician i almost never get sick usually when something horrendous is going around i either don t get it at all or get a very mild case when i do get really sick it is always something unusual this was not the situation when i was in medical school particularly on pediatrics pediatrics for me was three solid months of illness and i had a temp of when i took the final exam i think what happens is that during training and beyond we are constantly exposed to new things and we have the usual reactions to them so that later on when challenged with something it is more likely a re exposure for us so we deal with it well and get a mild illness this is also commonly seen in new teachers the first few years they re sick a lot but gradually seem to build up immunities to almost everything common come to think of it i was about my healthiest when i was working in a pathogens lab exposed to who knows what all the time pre osha of course kay klier biology dept uni
sci.med	re intravenous antibiotics in article apr spectrum xerox com leisner eso mc xerox com writes i recently had a case of shingles and my doctors wanted to give me intravenous acyclovir it was a pain finding iv sites in my arms can i have some facts about how advantageous it is to give intravenous antibiotics rather than oral i think some essential information must be missing here i e you must be suffering from a condition which has caused immunosuppression there is no indication for iv acyclovir for shingles in an otherwise healthy person the oral form can help to reduce the length of symptoms and may even help prevent the development of post herpetic neuralgia but i certainly would not subject someone to iv therapy without a good reason to address your more general question iv therapy does provide higher and more consistently high plasma and tissue levels of a drug for treating a serious infection this is the only way to be sure that a patient is getting adequate drug levels kenneth gilbert university of pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit not a programmer
sci.med	re barbecued foods and health risk i don t understand the assumption that because something is found to be carcinogenic that it would not be legal in the u s i think that naturally occuring substances excluding controlled substances are pretty much unregulated in terms of their use as food food additives or other consumption it s only when the chemists concoct sp an ingredient that it falls under fda regulations otherwise if they really looked closely they would find a reason to ban almost everything how in the world do you suppose it s legal to consume tobacco products which probably should be banned no there is something called the delany amendment which makes carcinogenic food additives illegal in any amount this was passed by congress in the s before stuff like mass spectrometry became available which increased detectable levels of substances by a couple orders of magnitude this is why things like cyclamates and red were banned they are very weakly carcinogenic in huge quantities in rats so under the act they are banned this also applies to natural carcinogens some of you might remember a time back in the s when root beer suddenly stopped tasting so good and never tasted so good again that was the time when safrole was banned this is the active flavoring ingredient in sassafras leaves if it were possible to market a root beer good like the old days someone would do it in order to make money the fact that no one does it indicates that enforcement is still in effect an odd exception to the rule seems to be the product known as gumbo file this is nothing more than coarsely ground dried sassafras leaves this is not only a natural product but a natural product still in its natural form so maybe that s how they evade delany or maybe a special exemption was made to appease powerful louisiana democrats
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article apr rtsg mot com lundby rtsg mot com walter f lundby writes as nobody in the food industry has even bothered to address my previous question why do you need to put msg in almost every food i must assume that my wife s answer is closer to the truth than i hoped it was i don t mean to be disrespectful to your concerns but it seems to me that you re getting all wound up in a non issue as many knowledgeable people have pointed out msg is a naturally occurring substance in a lot if not most foods when food manufacturers add it to a preparation they do so because it s a known flavor enhancer your wife s theory that msg is added to food to stimulate appetite may well be true but i don t believe it s always the reason it s added people are largely for the most part in charge of their own appetites children s and my parent s seem to fixate on a particular brand of pet food the cat will eat any product within one brand and not any other brand i have wondered if this is not a case of preference but some sort of chemical training or addiction my questions for the net are does the fda regulate the contents of pet food is it allowed for pet food to contain addictive or conditioning substances is msg put in pet food you don t know much about cats do you cats will take advantage of you resign yourself you will never understand a cat their tastes are whimsical i also suspect though it s been a while since i ve checked ingredients on commercial cat food that there are much more stringent requirements on pet food additives than human see the fda has this stupid idea that human beings have the intelligence to look out after their own interests barbara wondering how her cat would take care of her
sci.med	re krillean photography newsgroups m h a added followups set to most appropriate groups in apr unlv edu todamhyp charles unlv edu brian m huey writes i am looking for any information supplies that will allow do it yourselfers to take krillean pictures it s kirlian krillean pictures are portraits of tiny shrimp one might extrapolate here and say that this proves that every object within the universe as we know it has its own energy signature i think it s safe to say that anything that s not at degrees kelvin will have its own energy signature the interesting questions are what kind of energy and what it signifies i d check places like edmund scientific are they still in business or i wonder if you can find ex soviet union equipment for sale somewhere in the relcom hierarchy some expansion on kirlian photography from the credulous side stanway andrew alternative medicine a guide to natural therapies isbn new york viking penguin p p a not overly critical but still useful overview of alternative health therapies the russian engineer semyon kirlian and his wife valentina during the s using alternating currents of high frequency to illuminate their subjects they photographed them they found that if an object was a good conductor such as a metal the picture showed only its surface while the pictures of poor conductors showed the inner structure of the object even if it were optically opaque they found too that these high frequency pictures could distinguish between dead and living objects dead ones had a constant outline whilst living ones were subject to changes the object s life activity was also visible in highly variable colour patterns high frequency photography has now been practised for twenty years in the soviet union but only a few people in the west have taken it up seriously professor douglas dean in new york and professor philips at washington university in st louis have produced kirlian photographs and others have been produced in brazil austria and germany using kirlian photography it is possible to show an aura around people s fingers notably around those of healers who are concentrating on healing someone normally blue and white rays emanate from the fingers but when a subject becomes angry or excited the aura turns red and spotty the soviets are now using kirlian photography to diagnose diseases which cannot be diagnosed by any other method they argue that in most illnesses there is a preclinical stage during which the person isn t actually ill but is about to be they claim to be able to foretell a disease by photographing its preclinical phase but the most exciting phenomenon illustrated by kirlian photography is the phantom effect during high frequency photography of a leaf from which a part had been cut the photograph gave a complete picture of the leaf with the removed part showing up faintly this is extremely important because it backs up the experiences of psychics who can see the legs of amputees as if they were still there the important thing about the kirlian phantoms though is that the electromagnetic pattern can t possibly represent a secondary phenomenon or the field would vanish when the piece of leaf or leg vanished the energy grid contained in a living object must therefore be far more significant than the actual object itself kirlian photography has shown how water mentally charged by a healer has a much richer energy field around it than ordinary water from the incredulous side macrobert alan reality shopping a consumer s guide to new age hokum whole earth review autumn vnon p an excellent article providing common sense guidelines for evaluating paranormal claims and some of the author s favorite examples of hokum the crank usually works in isolation from everyone else in his field of study making grand discoveries in his basement many paranormal movements can be traced back to such people kirlian photography for instance if you pump high voltage electricity into anything it will emit glowing sparks common knowledge to electrical workers and hobbyists for a century it took a lone basement crank to declare that the sparks represent some sort of spiritual aura in fact kirlian photography was subjected to rigorous testing by physicists john o pehek harry j kyler and david l faust who reported their findings in the october issue of science their conclusion the variations observed in kirlian photographs are due solely to moisture on the surface of the body and not to mysterious auras or even necessarily to changes in mood or mental state nevertheless television shows magazines and books many by famous parapsychologists continue to promote kirlian photography as proof of the unknown peter kaminski kaminski netcom com
sci.med	what are knots what exactly are knots those sore tight spots in your muscles in certain kinds of massage people try and break up these knots it this really helpful ho leung ng ng husc harvard edu
sci.med	re barbecued foods and health risk mark mcwiggins markmc halcyon com reminds us mm also don t forget that it s better for your health mm to enjoy your steak than to resent your sprouts yes i call this notion psychological health food and in fact have determined that the four food groups are ice cream pizza barbecue and chocolate ideally every meal should contain something from at least two of these four groups food does serve functions other than nutrition and one of them is keeping the organism happy and thus aiding its immune system and i didn t spend a million bucks commissioning a study that told me to redraw my silly little pyramid in different colors and with a friendlier typeface either ref consumer reports back page one of the best things ever to turn up there rich young young serum kodak com writes of one of six impossible things ry to consume unrealistically large quantities of barbecued meat at a time donald mackie donald mackie med umich edu confesses dm i have to confess that this is one of my few unfulfilled ambitions dm no matter how much i eat it still seems realistic yeah i want to try one of those oz steaks cooked over applewood at wally s wolf lodge inn in coeur d alene that seems quite unrealistic unrealistically small and a few slabs of ribs from the east texas smoker rip again in louisville is not at all unrealistic either what say we have a rec food cooking dinner at the moonlite bar b que inn in owensboro it s all you can eat including lamb ribs mutton for about we could invite julie kangas as guest of honor and see if the moonlite s very hot sauce is too hot for her it is too hot for me and i don t say that very often and she could bring ice cream with crushed dried chiltepins for dessert and we could see if there is such a thing as an unrealistically large quantity of barbecue the owner of the moonlite estimates that the owensboro restaurants serve a hundred thousand pounds of meat a week in the summer and forty thousand in the winter in a town of or so two pounds per person per week again sure sounds unrealistic to me thats just too meager to be healthy kiran now a two pound slab of ribs a day that s realistic fuzzy pink niven s law never waste calories potato chips candy whipped cream or hot fudge sundae consumption may involve you your dietician your wardrobe and other factors but fuzzy pink s law implies don t eat soggy potato chips or cheap candy or fake whipped cream or an inferior hot fudge sundae larry niven niven s laws n space
sci.med	re frequent nosebleeds in article aa seastar seashell bebmza sru chvpkh chevron com beverly m zalan writes my year son is so plagued lots of vaseline up his nose each night seems to keep it under control but let him get bopped there and he ll recur for days also allergies colds dry air all seem to contribute but again the vaseline or a d ointment or neosporin all seem to keep them from recurring if you can get it you might want to try a canadian over the counter product called secaris which is a water soluble gel compared to vaseline or other greasy ointments secaris seems more compatible with the moisture that s already there michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition frequently of late i have been reacting to something added to restaurant foods what happens is that the inside of my throat starts to feel puffy like i have a cold and also at times the inside of my mouth especially the tongue and lips also feel puffy the situations around these symptoms almost always involve restaurants usually chinese the most notable cases a cheap chinese fast food chain a japanese steak house i had the steak and another chinese fast food chain where i saw the cook put about a tablespoon or two of what looked like sugar or salt into my fried rice i am under the impression that msg enhances flavor by causing the taste buds to swell if this is correct i do not find it unreasonable to assume that high doses of msg can cause other mouth tissues to swell also as the many of the occurances including two of the above involved beef and as beef is frequently tenderized with msg this is what i suspect as being the cause i wouldn t be at all surprised if toxicity studies of msg in animals showed it as being harmless as it would be very startling to hear a lab rat or rhesus monkey complain about their throats feeling funny anyone who wishes to explain how the majority of food additives are totally harmless is welcome to e mail me with the results of any studied they know of i will probably respond to them however with a reminder of how long it took to prove that smoking causes cancer which the tobacco companies still deny dm if i sound grumpy it s because i had beef with broccoli for lunch today and now it hurts to swallow dan myers madman if the creator had intended us to walk myers usceast cs scarolina edu upright he wouldn t have given us knuckles
sci.med	origin of morphine i am sorry to once again bother those of you on this newsgroup if you have any suggestions as to where i might find out about the subject of this letter the origin of morphine ie who first isolsted it and why he she attempted such an experiment once agian any suggestion would be appreciated csh p s my instructer insists that i get rescources from this newsgroup so please send me and info you think may be helpful facts that you know but don t know what book they re from are ok attention if you do not like seeing letters such as this one on your newsgroup direct all complaints to my instructor at bshayler eis calstat edu kilimanjaro is a pretty tricky climb most of it s up until you reach the very very top and then it tends to slope away rather sharply sir george head obe jc logic the point is frozen the beast is dead what is the difference gavin millarrrrrrrrrr jc
sci.med	re ob gyn residency reply to geb cs pitt edu gordon banks i believe it is illegal for a residency to discriminate against fmgs is that true i know some that won t even interview fmgs i think a case could be made that this is discriminatory particularly if an applicant had good board scores and recommendations but wasn t offered an interview but i don t know if it has ever gone to court david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire wi this is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities bertrand russell
sci.med	re krillean photography reply to todamhyp charles unlv edu brian m huey i think that s the correct spelling kirilian the picture will show energy patterns or spikes around the object photographed and depending on what type of object it is the spikes or energy patterns will vary one might extrapolate here and say that this proves that every object within the universe as we know it has its own energy signature there turned out to be a very simple conventional explanation for the phenomenon i can t recall the details but i believe it had to do with the object between the plates altering the field because of purely mechanical properties like capacitance the aura was caused by direct exposure of the film from variations in field strength david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire wi this is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities bertrand russell
sci.med	recurrent respiratory papillomatosis we will be holding a bake and craft sale at communiversity in princeton on nassau street saturday april th p m to benefit the recurrent respiratory papillomatosis foundation a nonprofit foundation established to encourage research toward a cure for recurrent respiratory papillomatosis our three year old daughter suffers from this disease below is a press release that appeared in local newspapers hope you can join us on saturday april as part of communiversity in princeton a local family will be having a bake and craft sale to raise money for and create public awareness about a rare disease called recurrent respiratory papillomatosis bill and marlene stern s daughter lindsay is afflicted with this disease characterized by tumors attacking the inside of the larynx vocal cords and trachea caused by a virus the tumors grow block the air passages and would lead to death from suffocation without continual surgery to remove the growths three year old lindsay has undergone operations thus far since her diagnosis last year and faces the prospect of over a hundred operations throughout her lifetime even though the disease is hardly a household word it has affected the lives of enough people to inspire the formation of the recurrent respiratory papillomatosis foundation a non profit foundation whose goals are to provide support for patients and families by networking patients and publishing a newsletter enhance awareness of rrp at the local and national level and aid in the prevention cure and treatment since medical researchers know that the virus causing the disease is similar to those viruses causing warts they feel a cure would be within reach if money were available for research because rrp is rare it not only gets scant attention but also paltry funds to search for a cure part of the rrp foundation s mission is to change that anyone interested in contributing items to the bake and craft sale please call marlene or bill at monetary donations can be made at the foundation s booth during communiversity april th to p m in downtown princeton or sent directly to the recurrent respiratory foundation wesleyan drive hamilton sq nj thanks mstern lindsay princeton edu
sci.med	re morbus meniere is there a real remedy it would be nice to think that individuals can somehow beat the system and like a space explorer boldly go where no man has gone before and return with a prize cure unfortunately too often the prize is limited and the efficacy of the cure questionable when applied to all sufferers this applies to both medical researchers and non medical individuals just because it appears in an obscure journal and may be of some use does not make the next cure all what about the dozens of individuals who have courageously participated in clinical trials did they have any guarentee of cures are they any less because they didn t trumpet their story all over the world as a parting note wasn t there some studies done on gingko seeds for meniere s to the original poster what about trying for a trial of that it s probably not a final answer but it certainly may alleviate some of the discomfort and you d be helping answer the question for future sufferers gervais
sci.med	re hernia in article c qopx mq encore com sheffner encore com steve heffner writes a bit more than a year ago a hernia in my right groin was discovered it had produced a dull pain in that area the hernia was repaired using the least intrusive orthoscopic method and a plug and patch i suspect you mean laparoscopic instead of orthoscopic now the pain occurs more often my gp couldn t identify any specific problem the surgen who performed the original procedure now says that yes there is a new hernia in the same area and he said that he has to cut into the area for the repair this time my question to the net is there a nonintrusive method to determine if in fact there is a hernia or if the pain is from something else by far the still best method to diagnose a hernia is old fashioned physical examination if you have an obvious hernia sac coming down into your scrotum or a bulge in your groin that is brought about by increasing intra abdominal pressure sometimes is not that obvious the hernia is small and you can only detect it by putting your finger into the inguinal canal whether you have a recurrent hernia or this is related to the previous operation i can t tell you the person that examined you is in the best position to make that determination are there non invasive ways of diagnosing a hernia every now and then folks write about ct scans and ultrasounds for this but these are far too expensive and unlikely to be better than a trained examining finger howard doyle doyle pitt edu
sci.med	re lasers for dermatologists it is not true that dermatologists gave not reached the laser age in fact lasers in dermatological surgery is a very new and exciting field it probably won t be effective in tinea pedis because the laser is usually a superficial burn to avoid any deeper damage limited tinea pedis can be cured albeit sometimes slowly by topical antifungals as well as systemic medication i e tablets finally a self diagnosis is not always reliable lichen simplex chronicus can look like a fungal infection and requires very different treatment gervais
sci.med	re eye dominance in article apr porthos cc bellcore com jil donuts uucp jamie lubin writes in article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu gordon banks writes in article c e g world std com rsilver world std com richard silver writes is there a right eye dominance eyedness as there is an overall right handedness in the population i mean do most people require less lens corrections for the one eye than the other if so what kinds of percentages can be attached to this there is eye dominance same as handedness and usually for the same side it has nothing to do with refractive error however i recall reading seeing that former baseball star chris chambliss hitting abilities were in part attributed to a combination of left handedness right eye dominance i was part of a study a few years ago at the university of arizona to see whether cross dominant individuals those with a particular handedness but who had dominance in the opposite eye were better hitters than those with same side dominance of hand and eye i was picked from my softball class because i was cross dominant right hand left eye which put me in a small minority and the grad student was trying to get an equal number of cross dominant and same side dominant people to control the study she used a pitching machine fast pitch since i was used to slow pitch i didn t come close actually i think i foul tipped a few to hitting the ball if there were a lot of people like me in her study i e those who can t hit fast pitch or are not used to hitting off a machine i would seriously question the results of that study i think there have been some studies of major league players across a fairly large cross section of players to test whether eye dominance being the same or opposite side was better but i don t know the results the woman who ran the study i was in said that there was a higher incidence of crossdominance in major leaguers than across the general population but i m not sure whether i d believe her janice rathmann
sci.med	re bursitis and laser treatment in article apr freenet carleton ca ab freenet carleton ca robert allison writes my family doctor and the physiotherapist pt she sent me to agree that the pain in my left shoulder is bursitis i have an appointment with an orthpod i love that it s short for orthopedic surgeon apparently but while i m waiting the pt is treating me she s using hot packs ultrasound and lasers but there s no improvement yet in fact i almost suspect it s getting worse my real question is about the laser treatment i can t easily imagine what the physical effect that could have on a deep tissue problem can anyone shed some light so to speak on the matter if it works it s only due to the heat produced by the laser philippe
sci.med	re krillean photography in article apr unlv edu todamhyp charles unlv edu brian m huey writes i think that s the correct spelling crullerian i am looking for any information supplies that will allow do it yourselfers to take krillean pictures i m thinking that education suppliers for schools might have a appartus for sale but i don t know any of the companies any info is greatly appreciated crullerian photography isn t educational except in a purely satiric sense in case you don t know krillean photography to the best of my knowledge involves taking pictures of an most of the time organic object between charged plates the picture will show energy patterns or spikes around the object photographed and depending on what type of object it is the spikes or energy patterns will vary one might extrapolate here and say that this proves that every object within the universe as we know it has its own energy signature crullerian photography involves putting donuts between grease covered hot metal plates while illuminating them with a krypton stroboscope through a unique iteration involving the th dimensional projection of a torus through the semi stochastic interactions of hot monomolecular lipid layers covering the metal plates the best metal is iron since it repels vampires and succubi the donuts start developing flutes and within moments actually become poly crenellated hot greasy breadtubes some people believe that food is the way to a man s heart but most psychics agree that there is nothing like hot crullers for breakfast the chemical composition of crullers is a mystery some thought evidence of charles fort s channeling in stevie wonder s production of the secret life of plants when played backwards in the theatre of unnaturally fertile findhorn farms has deduced that they are complex carbohydrates ordinarily only found by spectoscopy in the magellenic clouds i called devi on my orgone box and asked her if this was really the case and she tm levitated me a letter across the atlantic to tell me it was indeed not just another case of misunderstanding tesla though the miskatonic university hasn t confirmed anything at all at least the crullers taste good i got the recipe from kaspar hauser le jojo fresh n clean speaking out to the way you want to live today american all american doing a bit so and even more so
sci.med	rd cfv and vote ack misc health diabetes this is the third and final call for votes for the creation of the newsgroup misc health diabetes a mass acknowledgement of valid votes received as of april th gmt appears at the end of this posting please check the list to be sure that your vote has been registered read the instructions for voting carefully and follow them precisely to be certain that you place a proper vote instructions for voting to place a vote for the creation of misc health diabetes send an email message to yes sun nrl navy mil to place a vote against creation of misc health diabetes send an email message to no sun nrl navy mil the contents of the message should contain the line i vote for against misc health diabetes as proposed email messages sent to the above addresses must constitute unambiguous and unconditional votes for against newsgroup creation as proposed conditional votes will not be accepted only votes emailed to the above addresses will be counted mailed replies to this posting will be returned in the event that more than one vote is placed by an individual only the most recent vote will be counted voting will continue until gmt apr votes will not be accepted after this date any administrative inquiries pertaining to this cfv may be made by email to swkirch sun nrl navy mil the proposed charter appears below charter misc health diabetes unmoderated the purpose of misc health diabetes is to provide a forum for the discussion of issues pertaining to diabetes management i e diet activities medicine schedules blood glucose control exercise medical breakthroughs etc this group addresses the issues of management of both type i insulin dependent and type ii non insulin dependent diabetes both technical discussions and general support discussions relevant to diabetes are welcome postings to misc heath diabetes are intended to be for discussion purposes only and are in no way to be construed as medical advice diabetes is a serious medical condition requiring direct supervision by a primary health care physician end of charter the following individuals have sent in valid votes bmu vms csd mu edu bill satterlee a wj loki cc pdx edu jim williams ac freenet carleton ca colin henein ad cat de axel dunkel al academ mty itesm mx jesus eugenio s nchez pe a anugula badlands nodak edu ramakrishna reddy anugula apps sneaks kodak com robert w apps arperd mik uky edu alicia r perdue baind gov on ca dave bain balamut morris hac com morris balamut bch juliet caltech edu bgaines ollamh ucd ie brian gaines bjorn b larsen delab sintef no bobw hpsadwc sad hp com bob waltenspiel bruce uxb liverpool ac uk bruce bspencer binkley cs mcgill ca brian spencer cline usceast cs scarolina edu ernest a cline coleman twin twinsun com mike coleman compass da com tomd compass da com thomas donnelly csc coast ucsd edu charles coughran curtech sbs unh edu stephanie bradley swift debrum m brenda msgate corp apple com debrum brenda dlb fanny wash inmet com david barton dlg midway uchicago edu deborah lynn gillaspie dougb comm mot com douglas bank ed titipu resun com edward reid edmoore hpvclc vcd hp com ed moore ejo kaja gi alaska edu eric j olson emcguire intellection com ed mcguire ewc hplb hpl hp com enrico coiera feathr bluejay ampakz enet dec com franklig gas uug arizona edu gregory c franklin fsspr acad alaska edu hardcore alaskan gabe angus mi org gabe helou gasp medg lcs mit edu isaac kohane gasp medg lcs mit edu isaac kohane geir millstein tf tele no ggurman cory berkeley edu gail gurman ggw wolves durham nc us gregory g woodbury greenlaw oasys dt navy mil leila thomas grm andrew cmu edu gretchen miller halderc cs rpi edu handelap duvm bitnet pucc princeton edu phil handel hansenr ohsu edu hc nyongwa cam org hc heddings chrisco nrl navy mil hubert heddings herbison lassie ucx lkg dec com b j hmpetro mosaic uncc edu herbert m petro hosch iscsvax uni edu hrubin pop stat purdue edu herman rubin hudsoib auducadm duc auburn edu ingrid b hudson huff mcclb med nyu edu edward j huff huffman ingres com gary huffman huynh estd nrl navy mil minh huynh ishbeld cix compulink co uk ishbel donkin james langdell eng sun com james langdell jamyers netcom com john a myers jc crosfield co uk jerry cullingford jesup cbmvax cbm commodore com randell jesup jjmorris gandalf rutgers edu joyce morris joep dap csiro au joe petranovic john burton acenet auburn edu john e burton jr johncha comm mot com jorgensonke cc uvcc edu jpsum mik uky edu joey p sum jtm ucsfvm ucsf edu john maynard julien skcla monsanto com kaminski netcom com peter kaminski kerry citr uq oz au kerry raymond kieran world std com aaron l dickey knauer cs uiuc edu rob knauerhase kolar spot colorado edu jennifer lynn kolar kriguer tcs com marc kriguer lau ai sri com stephen lau lee hal com lee boylan lmt po cwru edu lunie lehigh edu lusgr chili cc lehigh edu stephen g roseman m beamish ins gu edu au marilyn beamish m rich ens gu edu au maurice h rich maas cdfsga fnal gov peter maas macridis g kosmos wcc govt nz gerry macridis markv hpvcivm vcd hp com mark vanderford maschler vms huji ac il mcb net bio net michael c berch mcday ux cso uiuc edu mcookson flute calpoly edu mfc isr harvard edu mauricio f contreras mg wpi edu martha gunnarson mhollowa libserv ic sunysb edu michael holloway misha abacus concordia ca misha glouberman mjb cs brown edu manish butte moflngan vax tcd ie muir idiom berkeley ca us david muir sharnoff nancy block eng sun com nancy block ndallen r node hub org nigel allen nlr b nei nih gov rohrer nathan owens cookiemonster cc buffalo edu bill owens pams hpfcmp fc hp com pam sullivan papresco undergrad math uwaterloo ca paul prescod paslowp cs rpi edu pillinc gov on ca christopher pilling pkane cisco com peter kane popelka odysseus uchicago edu glenn popelka pulkka cs washington edu aaron pulkka pwatkins med unc edu pat watkins rbnsn mosaic shearson com ken robinson rick crick ssctr bcm tmc edu richard h miller robyn media mit edu robyn kozierok rolf green mathematik uni stuttgart de rolf schreiber sageman cup portal com sasjcs unx sas com joan stout scottjor delphi com scrl hplb hpl hp com scs vectis demon co uk stuart c squibb shan techops cray com sharan kalwani sharen iscnvx lmsc lockheed com sharen a rund shazam unh edu matthew t thompson shipman csab larc nasa gov floyd s shipman shoppa erin caltech edu tim shoppa slillie cs bradley edu susan lillie steveo world std com steven w orr surendar ivy wpi edu surendar chandra swkirch sun nrl navy mil steven kirchoefer s fagan twu edu taryn arizvm ccit arizona edu taryn l westergaard thomas e taylor gagme chi il us thomas e taylor tima cfsmo honeywell com timothy d aanerud tsamuel gollum relay nswc navy mil tony samuel u uicvm uic edu m jacobs vstern gte com vanessa stern wahlgren haida van wti com james wahlgren waterfal pyrsea sea pyramid com douglas waterfall weineja teomail jhuapl edu wgrant informix com william grant yeager mscf med upenn edu yozzo watson ibm com ralph e yozzo z beach utmb edu molly hamilton steve kirchoefer code kirchoefer estd nrl navy mil naval research laboratory microwave technology branch washington dc electronics sci and tech division
sci.med	result sci life extension passes the vote to create the proposed group sci life extension was affirmative yes votes no votes what follows is a list of the people who voted by vote no or yes here are the people who voted no bailey utpapa ph utexas edu ed bailey barkdoll lepomis psych upenn edu edwin barkdoll msb sq com mark brader carr acsu buffalo edu dave carr desj ccr p ida org david desjardins jbh anat umsmed edu james b hutchins rsk gynko circ upenn edu rich kulawiec stu valinor mythical com stu labovitz lau ai sri com stephen lau plebrun minf vub ac be philippe lebrun jmaynard nyx cs du edu jay maynard emcguire intellection com ed mcguire rick crick ssctr bcm tmc edu richard h miller smarry zooid guild org marc moorcroft dmosher nyx cs du edu david mosher ejo kaja gi alaska edu eric j olson hmpetro mosaic uncc edu herbert m petro smith una yale edu una smith mmt redbrick com maxime taksar kc zps urlichs smurf sub org matthias urlichs ac umbc edu a francis uy werner soe berkeley edu john werner wick netcom com potter wickware ggw wolves durham nc us gregory g woodbury d w wright bnr co uk d wright yarvin norman cs yale edu norman yarvin ask cblph att com spm d opal cs virginia edu here are the people who voted yes fsspr acad alaska edu hardcore alaskan kalex eecs umich edu ken alexander ph fht sdcc ucsd edu alex aumann franklin balluff syntex com franklin balluff barash umbc edu mr steven barash build alan b ingr com alan barksdale build lion therat kludge com john h barlow pbarto uceng uc edu paul barto ryan bayne canrem com ryan bayne mignon shannon jpl nasa gov mignon belongie beaudot tirf grenet fr william beaudot lavb lise unit no olav benum ross bryson demon co uk ross beresford ben best canrem com ben best levi happy man com levi bitansky jsb dagda eng sun com james blomgren gbloom nyx cs du edu gregory bloom mbrader netcom com mark brader ebrandt jarthur claremont edu eli brandt doom leland stanford edu joseph brenner rc pos apana org au robert cardwell jeffjc binkley cs mcgill ca jeffrey chance sasha cs umb edu alexander chislenko mclark world std com maynard s clark compuserve com a j clifford coleman twinsun com mike coleman steve constellation ecn uoknor edu steve coltrin collier ivory rtsg mot com john t collier compton plains nodak edu curtis m compton bobc master cna tek com bob cook cordell shaman nexagen com bruce cordell cormierj ere umontreal ca cormier jean marc djcoyle macc wisc edu douglas j coyle dass student tc umn edu john r dassow bdd onion eng hou compaq com bruce davis demonn emunix emich edu kenneth jubal demonn desilets sj ate slb com mark desilets markd sco com mark diekhans kari teracons teracons com kari dubbelman lhdsy cyberia hou chevron com hwdub uunet uu net dub dublin willdye helios unl edu will dye yegan jove dnet measurex com juno measurex com terry egan eder hsvaic boeing com dani eder glenne magenta hq ileaf com glenn ellingson farrar adaclabs com richard farrar ghsvax hal uunet uu net hal finney lxfogel srv pacbell com lee fogel afoxx foxxjac b a ingr com foxx i disc dla mil sam frajerman sppb x mpf medg lcs mit edu michael p frank martin franklin corp sun com martin franklin tiff cs ucla edu tiffany frazier ailing zhu freeman u ergo cs cmu edu ailing freeman timothy freeman u ergo cs cmu edu tim freeman gt c prism gatech edu geoff george mtvdjg rivm nl daniel gijsbers exusag exu ericsson se serena gilbert rlglende netcom com robert lewis glendenning goetz cs buffalo edu phil goetz goolsby dg rtp dg com chris goolsby dgordon crow omni co jp david gordon bgrahame eris demon co uk robert d grahame sascsg unx sas com cynthia grant green srilanka island com robert greenstein johng oce orst edu john a gregor roger netcom com roger gregory evans ron cs yale edu ron hale evans brent vpnet chi il us brent hansen ron g hay med umich edu ron g hay akh empress gvg tek com anna k haynes claris qm bob hearn ames arc nasa gov robert hearn fheyligh vnet vub ac be francis heylighen hin midway uchicago edu p hindman fishe casbah acns nwu edu carwil james janzen mprgate mpr ca martin janzen karp skcla monsanto com jeffery m karp rk elsegundoca ncr com richard kelly merklin gnu ai mit edu ed kemo kessner rintintin colorado edu kessner eric m mapam csv warwick ac uk mr r a khwaja koski sunset cs utah edu keith koski kathi bridge com kathi kramer benkrug jupiter fnbc com ben krug farif eskimo com david kunz edsr edsdrd sel uunet uu net steve langs pa hcl meceng coe northeastern edu henry leong s linton pmms cam ac uk steve linton alopez cs ep utexas edu alejandro lopez kfl access digex com keith f lynch kamchar msu edu charles macdonald rob vis toronto edu robert c majka phil starconn com phil marks cam jackatak raider net cameron marshall mmay mcd intel com mike may drac uumeme chi il us bruce maynard i discg disc dla mil john mccarrick xyzzy imagen com david mcintyre cuhes csv warwick ac uk malcolm mcmahon mcpherso macvax ucsd edu john mcpherson merkle parc xerox com ralph merkle eric synopsys com eric messick pmetzger shearson com perry e metzger gmichael vmd cso uiuc edu gary r michael dat mas ludat lth se asker mikael millerl wilma wharton upenn edu loren j miller minsky media mit edu marvin minsky pmorris lamar colostate edu paul morris mark muhlestein novell com mark muhlestein david staff udc upenn edu r david murray gananney mosaic uncc edu glenn a nanney anthony meaddata com anthony napier dniman panther win net donald e niman nistuk unixg ubc ca richard nistuk jonathan rmit edu au jonathan o donnell martino gomez jpl nasa gov martin r olah cpatil leland stanford edu christopher kashina patil crp erfsys boeing com chris payne sharon acri fr sharon peleg php rhi hi is petur henry petersen chrisp efi com chris phoenix pierce cs ucla edu brad pierce julius math utah edu julius pierce dplatt cellar org doug platt mitchell porter lambada oit unc edu mitchell porter cpresson jido b ingr com craig presson price price demon co uk michael clive price u uicvm bitnet edward s proctor stevep deckard works ti com steve pruitt mjquinn pucc bitnet michael quinn rauss nvl army mil patrick rauss remke cs tu berlin de jan k remke ag yfn ysu edu barry h rodin ksackett cs uah edu karl r sackett rcs cs arizona edu richard schroeppel fschulz pyramid com frank schulz kws thunder island kalamazoo mi us karel w sebek bseewald gozer idbsu edu brad seewald shapard manta nosc mil thomas d shapard habs panix com harry shapiro muir idiom berkeley ca us david muir sharnoff dasher well sf ca us d anton sherwood zero netcom com richard shiflett ap brownvm bitnet elaine shiner robsho robsho auto trol com robert shock rshvern gmuvax gmu edu rob shvern wesiegel cie uoregon edu william siegel ggyygg mixcom mixcom com kenton sinner bsmart bsmart tti com bob smart tonys ariel ucs unimelb edu au anthony david smith sgccsns citecuc citec oz au shayne noel smith dsnider beta tricity wsu edu daniel l snider snyderg spot colorado edu snyder gary edwin jr blupe ruth fullfeed com brian arthur stewart lhdsy usmi midland chevron com tsfsi uunet uu net sigrid stewart nat netcom com nathaniel stitt tps biosym com tom stockfisch stodolsk andromeda rutgers edu david stodolsky gadget dcs warwick ac uk steve strong carey cs ucla edu carey sublette jsuttor netcom com jeff suttor swain cernapo cern ch john swain szabo techbook com nick szabo ptheriau netcom com p chris theriault ak yfn ysu edu chris thompson gunnar thoresen bio uio no gunnar thoresen dreamer uxa cso uiuc edu andrew trapp jerry cse lbl gov jerry tunis music parcom ernet in rajeev upadhye treon u washington edu treon verdery evore magnus acs ohio state edu eric j vore u uicvm bitnet howard wachtel susan wpi wpi edu susan c wade compuserve com paul wakfer ewalker it berklee edu elaine walker jew rt sunquest com james ward jeremy ai mit edu jeremy m wertheimer bw ws torreypinesca ncr com bruce white weeds strobe atc olivetti com mark wiedman wiesel elisha cs yale edu elisha wiesel willingp gar union edu willing paul smw alcor concordia ca steven winikoff wright hicomb hi com david wright ebusew anah ericsson com stephen wright liquidx cnexus cts com liquid x xakellis uivlsisl csl uiuc edu michael g xakellis cs cs brown edu ion yannopoulos yazz lccsd sd locus com bob yazz lnz lucid com leonard n zubkoff rse npd ufpe br adwyer mason gmu edu art embl hamburg de atfurman cup portal com billw attmail att com carl red dragon umbc edu carlf ai mit edu cccbbs chris thompson uceng uc edu ccgarcia mizzou bitnet clayb cellar org dack permanet org daedalus netcom com danielg autodesk com dave m cup portal com f griffith ccsvax sfasu edu garcia husc harvard edu gav houxa att com hammar cs unm edu herbison lassie ucx lkg dec com hhuang athena mit edu hkhenson cup portal com irving happy man com jeckel amugw aichi med u ac jp jgs merit edu jmeritt mental mitre org jonas marten fjallstam cup portal com kqb whscad att com lpomeroy velara sim es com lubkin apollo hp com kunert wustlb wustl edu linyard m xenos a logica co uk m michelle wrightwatson att com moselecw elec canterbury ac nz naoursla eos ncsu edu ng husc harvard edu pase dchapman uwm edu pocock math utah edu rudi hsd uvic ca scottjor delphi com stanton ide com steveha microsoft com stu discover wright edu syang es ae xerox com tim hruby his com todd kaufmann fussen mt cs cmu edu tom genie slhs udel edu uc mizzou bitnet wmiller clust clemson edu yost mv us adobe com the group still passes if you don t count the people for whom i just have email address brian bmdelane midway uchicago edu
sci.med	re krillean photography in article apr ircam fr francis ircam fr joseph francis writes in article apr unlv edu todamhyp charles unlv edu brian m huey writes i think that s the correct spelling crullerian how about kirlian imaging i believe the faq for sci skeptics sp has a nice write up on this they would certainly be most supportive on helping you to build such a device and connect to a kvolt supply so that you can take a serious look at your aura filipe santos cern european laboratory for particle physics switzerland
sci.med	re candida albicans what is it in article apr ida liu se davpa ida liu se david partain writes someone i know has recently been diagnosed as having candida albicans a disease about which i can find no information apparently it has something to do with the body s production of yeast while at the same time being highly allergic to yeast can anyone out there tell me any more about it candida albicans can cause severe life threatening infections usually in people who are otherwise quite ill this is not however the sort of illness that you are probably discussing systemic yeast syndrome where the body is allergic to yeast is considered a quack diagnosis by mainstream medicine there is a book the yeast connection which talks about this illness there is no convincing evidence that such a disease exists david rind rind enterprise bih harvard edu
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article qk tainnmr calamari hi com rogers calamari hi com andrew rogers writes in article apr walter bellcore com jchen ctt bellcore com writes chinese and many other asians japanese koreans etc have used msg as flavor enhancer for two thousand years do you believe that they knew how to make msg from chemical processes not they just extracted it from natural food such sea food and meat broth and to add further fuel to the flame war i read about years ago that the natural msg extracted from the sources you mention above does not cause the reported aftereffects it s only that nasty artificial msg extracted from coal tar or whatever that causes chinese restaurant syndrome i find this pretty hard to believe has anyone else heard it i was under the possibly incorrect assumption that most of the msg on our foods was made from processing sugar beets is this not true are there other sources of msg i am one of those folx who react sometimes strongly to msg however i also react strongly to sodium chloride table salt in excess each causes different symptoms except for the common one of rapid heartbeat and an uncomfortable feeling of pressure in my chest upper left quadrant steve giammarco peterson lane dallas tx marco sdf lonestar org loveyameanit
sci.med	re ob gyn residency in article apr cnsvax uwec edu david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu writes i believe it is illegal for a residency to discriminate against fmgs is that true i know some that won t even interview fmgs i think a case could be made that this is discriminatory particularly if an applicant had good board scores and recommendations but wasn t offered an interview but i don t know if it has ever gone to court fmgs who are not citizens are like all aliens in a difficult situation only citizens get to vote here so non citizens are of little or no interest to legislators also the non citizen may well be in the middle of processing for resident alien status there is a stron sense that rocking the boat eg suing a residency program will delay the granting of that status perhaps for ever don mackie his opinions
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article myers peach cs scarolina edu myers cs scarolina edu daniel myers writes i am under the impression that msg enhances flavor by causing the taste buds to swell no that s not how it works if this is correct i do not find it unreasonable to assume that high doses of msg can cause other mouth tissues to swell this may be through a different mechanism also as the many of the occurances including two of the above involved beef and as beef is frequently tenderized with msg this is what i suspect as being the cause tenderizing beef involves sprinking or marinading it in papain an enzyme meat tenderizer packets might contain papain and msg and seasonings but msg doesn t act as a tenderizer steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima harvard rayssd linus m c spdcc dyer
sci.med	re krillean photography vinci filipe vxcrna cern ch wrote how about kirlian imaging i believe the faq for sci skeptics sp has a nice write up on this they would certainly be most supportive on helping you to build such a device and connect to a kvolt supply so that you can take a serious look at your aura filipe santos cern european laboratory for particle physics switzerland this has to be the only generally accepted method of using common physics lab equipment to find certain answers to all the questions about afterlifes heavens hells purgatory gods etc krillean photography will probably be ignored as insignificant compared to these larger eternal verities publishing your results could be a bit of a problem though cheers david
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition msg is common in many food we eat including chinese though some oriental restaurants might put a tad too much in them i ve noticed that when i go out and eat in most of the chinese food restaurants i will usually get a slight headache and an ununsual thirst afterwards this happens to many of my friends and relatives too and heh we eat chinese food all the time at home but we don t use msg when we re cooking for ourselves so when we put one and one together it can be safely assumed that msg may cause some allergic reactions in some people stick with natural things msg doesn t do body any good and possibly harms for that matter so why bother with it taste food as it should be tasted and don t cloud the flavor with an imaginary cloak of msg michael michael m huang don t believe what your eyes are telling you icemt iowa state univ all they show is limitation look with your michael iastate edu understanding find out what you already know include standard disclaimer and you ll see the way to fly j l seagull
sci.med	re krillean photography in article apr unlv edu todamhyp charles unlv edu brian m huey writes i think that s the correct spelling i am looking for any information supplies that will allow do it yourselfers to take krillean pictures i m thinking that education suppliers for schools might have a appartus for sale but i don t know any of the companies any info is greatly appreciated in case you don t know krillean photography to the best of my knowledge involves taking pictures of an most of the time organic object between charged plates the picture will show energy patterns or spikes around the object photographed and depending on what type of object it is the spikes or energy patterns will vary one might extrapolate here and say that this proves that every object within the universe as we know it has its own energy signature go to the library and look up corona discharge carl j lydick internet carl sol gps caltech edu nsi hepnet sol carl disclaimer hey i understand vaxen and vms that s what i get paid for my understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level or below so unless what i m saying is directly related to vax vms don t hold me or my organization responsible for it if it is related to vax vms you can try to hold me responsible for it but my organization had nothing to do with it
sci.med	re ocd in article c r n fg news hawaii edu sharynk hawaii edu writes i recently heard of a mental disorder called obsessive compulsive disorder what is it what causes it could it be caused by a nervous breakdown obesssive compulsive disorder not to be confused with obsessive compulsive personality disorder is an acute anxiety disorder characterized by either obsessions persistent intrusive thoughts that cause anxiety when not entertained or compulsions repetitive ritualistic actions that similarly cause intense psychological discomfort when resisted ocd is often associated with certain forms of depression examples of obsessive thoughts are repeated impulses to kill a loved one though not accompanied by anger or a religious person having recurrent blasphemous thoughts generally the individual attempts to ignore or suppress the intrusive thoughts by engaging in other activities the individual realizes that the thoughts originate from the own mind rather than being from an external source examples of compulsive actions are constant repetitive hand washing or other activity that is not realistically related to alleviating a source of the anxiety in ocd the obsessions or compulsions are highly distressing to the individual take an hour or more per day and significantly impair their daily routine and social relationships treatments include psychotherapy behavioral methods and sometimes certain anti depressants which have recently been found effective in alleviating obsessions and compulsions the standard diagnostic code for ocd if you want to look it up in the dsm iii manual of psychiatric diagnosis is kind regards todd todd i stark stark dwovax enet dec com digital equipment corporation philadelphia pa usa a word is the skin of a living thought olliver wendell holmes jr
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article michael vislab me iastate edu michael iastate edu michael m huang writes msg is common in many food we eat including chinese though some oriental restaurants might put a tad too much in them i ve noticed that when i go out and eat in most of the chinese food restaurants i will usually get a slight headache and an ununsual thirst afterwards this happens to many of my friends and relatives too and heh we eat chinese food all the time at home but we don t use msg when we re cooking for ourselves so when we put one and one together it can be safely assumed that msg may cause some allergic reactions in some people stick with natural things msg doesn t do body any good and possibly harms for that matter so why bother with it taste food as it should be tasted and don t cloud the flavor with an imaginary cloak of msg as i understood it msg is natural isn t it found in tomatoes anyway lots of people are terribly allergic to lots of natural things peanuts onions tomatoes milk etc just because something is natural doesn t mean it won t cause problems with some folks as for how foods taste if i m not allergic to msg and i like the taste of it why shouldn t i use it saying i shouldn t use it is like saying i shouldn t eat spicy food because my neighbor has an ulcer people have long modified the taste of food by additives whether they be chiles black pepper salt cream sauces etc all of these things cloud the flavor of the food why do we bother with them how should food be tasted isn t it better left to the diner julie disclaimer all opinions here belong to my cat and no one else
sci.med	cost of roxonal does anyone know the approximate prescription cost of a ml bottle of roxonal morphine thanks
sci.med	seizures infantile spasms the reason i m posting this article to this newsgroup is to gather any information about this disorder from anyone who might have recently been e ffected by it from being associated with it or actually having this disorder and help me find out where i can access any medical literature associated with seizures over the internet recently i had a baby boy born with seizures which occured hours after birth he was immediately transferred to a major hospital in boston and has since been undergoing extensive drug treatment for his condition this has been a major learning experience for me and my wife not only in learning the medical problems that faced our son but also in dealing with hospitals procedures etc i don t want to go into a lot of detail but his condition was termed quite severe at first then slowly he began to grow and put on weight as a normal baby would he was put on the standard anti convulsion drugs and that did not seem to help out his mri ekg cat scans are all normal but the eeg s show alot of seizure activity after many metabolic tests body structure tests and infection virus tests the doctors still do not know quite what type of siezures he is having although they do have alot of evidence that it is now pointing to infantile spasms this is where we stand right now if anyone knows of any database or newsgroup or as i mentioned up above any information relating to this disorder i would sure appreciate hearing from you i am not trying to play doctor here but only trying to gather information about it as i know now these particular types of disorders are still not really well understood by the medical community and so i m going to see now if somehow the internet can at least give me alittle insight thanks
sci.med	good grief was re candida albicans what is it in article rind enterprise bih harvard edu david rind writes in article davpa ida liu se david partain writes someone i know has recently been diagnosed as having candida albicans a disease about which i can find no information apparently it has something to do with the body s production of yeast while at the same time being highly allergic to yeast can anyone out there tell me any more about it candida albicans can cause severe life threatening infections usually in people who are otherwise quite ill this is not however the sort of illness that you are probably discussing systemic yeast syndrome where the body is allergic to yeast is considered a quack diagnosis by mainstream medicine there is a book the yeast connection which talks about this illness there is no convincing evidence that such a disease exists there s a lot of evidence it just hasn t been adequately gathered and published in a way that will convince the die hard melancholic skeptics who quiver everytime the word anecdote or empirical is used for example dr ivker who wrote the book sinus survival always gives before any other treatment a systemic anti fungal such as nizoral to his new patients if they ve been on braod spectrum anti biotics or more times in the last two years he s kept a record of the results and for over patients found that over of his patients get significant relief of allergic sinus symptoms of course this is only the beginning for his program in my case as i reported a few weeks ago i was developing the classic symptoms outlined in the yeast connection i agree it is a poorly written book e g extreme sensitivity to plastics vapors etc which i never had before started in november within one week of full dosage of sporanox the sensitivity to chemicals has fully disappeared i can now sit on my couch at home without dying after two minutes i m also greatly improved in other areas as well of course i have allergy symptoms etc i am especially allergic to molds yeasts etc it doesn t take a rocket scientist to figure out that if one has excessive colonization of yeast in the body and you have a natural allergy to yeasts that a threshold would be reached where you would have perceptible symptoms also yeast do produce toxins of various sorts and again you don t have to be a rocket scientist to realize that such toxins can cause problems in some people in my case it was sinus since that s the center of my allergic response of course the question is whether a person who is immune compromised as tests showed i was from over years of antibiotics nutritionally deficiencies because of the stress of infections and allergies etc can develop excessive yeast colonization somewhere in the body it is a tough question to answer since testing for excessive yeast colonization is not easy one almost has to take an empirical approach to diagnosis fortunately sporanox is relatively safe unlike past anti fungals still have to be careful however so there s no reason any longer to withhold sporanox treatment for empirical reasons btw some would say to try nystatin unfortunately most yeast grows hyphae too deep into tissue for nystatin to have any permanent affect you ll find a lot of people who are on nystatin all the time in summary i appreciate all of the attempts by those who desire to keep medicine on the right road but methinks that some who hold too firmly to the party line are academics who haven t been in the trenches long enough actually treating patients if anybody doctors included said to me to my face that there is no evidence of the yeast connection i cannot guarantee their safety for their incompetence ripping off their lips is justified as far as i am concerned jon noring charter member infj club if you re dying to know what infj means be brave e mail me i ll send info jon noring noring netcom com jkn international ip fred s gourmet chocolate carlton place phone chips world s best livermore ca v mail who are you read alt psychology personality that s where the action is
sci.med	proventil inhaler does the proventil inhaler for asthma relief fall into the steroid or nonsteroid category looking at the product literature it s not clear rick ysu edu
sci.med	re barbecued foods and health risk in article cup portal com mmm cup portal com mark robert thorson writes i don t understand the assumption that because something is found to be carcinogenic that it would not be legal in the u s i think that no there is something called the delany amendment which makes carcinogenic food additives illegal in any amount this was passed by congress in the s before stuff like mass spectrometry became available which increased detectable levels of substances by a couple orders of magnitude this is why things like cyclamates and red were banned they are very weakly carcinogenic in huge quantities in rats so under the act they are banned this also applies to natural carcinogens some of you might remember a time back in the s when root beer suddenly stopped tasting so good and never tasted so good again that was the time when safrole was banned this is the active flavoring ingredient in sassafras leaves if it were possible to market a root beer good like the old days someone would do it in order to make money the fact that no one does it indicates that enforcement is still in effect an odd exception to the rule seems to be the product known as gumbo file this is nothing more than coarsely ground dried sassafras leaves this is not only a natural product but a natural product still in its natural form so maybe that s how they evade delany or maybe a special exemption was made to appease powerful louisiana democrats i think what we have to keep in mind is that even though it may be illegal to commercially produce sell food with carcinogenic substances it is not illegal for people to do such to their own food smoking etc is this true
sci.med	re my new diet it works great in article apr omen uucp caf omen uucp chuck forsberg wa kgx writes weight rebound is a term used in the medical literature on obesity to denote weight regain beyond what was lost in a diet cycle there are any number of terms which mean one thing to can you provide a reference to substantiate that gaining back the lost weight does not constitute weight rebound until it exceeds the starting weight or is this oral tradition that is shared only among you obesity researchers gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re how to diagnose lyme really in article apr ns cc lehigh edu mcg ns cc lehigh edu marc gabriel writes now i m not saying that culturing is the best way to diagnose it s very hard to culture bb in most cases the point is that dr n has developed a feel for what is and what isn t ld this comes from years of experience no serology can match that unfortunately some would call dr n a quack and accuse him of trying to make a quick buck why do you think he would be called a quack the quacks don t do cultures they poo poo doing more lab tests this is lyme believe me i ve seen it many times the lab tests aren t accurate we ll treat it now also is dr n s practice almost exclusively devoted to treating lyme patients i don t know any orthopedic surgeons who fit this pattern they are usually gps gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re could this be a migraine in article uupcb factory com jim zisfein factory com jim zisfein writes headaches that seriously interfere with activities of daily living affect about of the population doesn t that sound like something a primary care physician should know something about i tend to agree with hmo administrators family physicians should learn the basics of headache management absolutely unfortunately most of them have had weeks of neurology in medical school and month maybe in their residency most of that is done in the hospital where migraines rarely are seen where are they supposed to learn those who are diligent and read do learn but most don t unfortunately sometimes i wonder what tension type headaches have to do with neurology anyway we are the only ones sometimes who have enough interest in headaches to spend the time to get enough history to diagnose them too often the primary care physician hears headache and loses interest in anything but giving the patient analgesics and getting them out of the office so they can get on to something more interesting i am excepting migraine which is arguably neurologic headaches i hope you meant inarguably gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re cause of mental retardation in article apr cc uvcc edu harrisji cc uvcc edu writes chromosome studies have shown no abnormalities enzyme studies and urine analyses have not turned up anything out of the ordinary mri images of the brain show scar tissue in the white matter subsequent mri analysis has shown that the deterioration of the white matter is progressive because neither family has a history of anything like this and because two of our four children are afflicted with the disorder we believe that it is an autosomal recessive metabolic disorder of some kind naturally we would like to know exactly what the disease is so that we may gain some insight into how we can expect the disorder to progress in the future we would also like to be able to provide our normal children with some information about what they can expect in their own children it could be one of the leukodystrophies not adrenal only boys get that surely you ve been to a university pediatric neurology department if not that is the next step biopsies might help especially if peripheral nerves are also affected there are so many of these diseases that would fit the symptoms you gave that more can t be said at this time i agree with your surmise that it is an autosomal recessive if so your normal children won t have to worry too much unless they marry near relatives most recessive genes are rare except in inbred communities e g lithuanian jews gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re paxil request s dragon acadiau ca james r skinner writes i have seen a couple of postings refering to an sri called paxil i have been on prozac for a number of years and recently switched to zolf i have seen a bit of comparsion of prozac to paxil but none on zolft to prozac can some one enlight me on the differences side effect profile etc does anyone know james robie skinner jodrey school of computer science james skinner dragon acadiau ca acadia university wolfville ns canada
sci.med	re barbecued foods and health risk heat shock proteins are those whose expression is induced in response to elevated temperature some are also made when organisms are subjected to other stress conditions e g high salt they have no obvious connection to what happens when you burn proteins sanford silverman opinions expressed here are my own american cyanamid sandy pt cyanamid com silvermans pt cyanamid com yeast is best
sci.med	do we need a radiologist to read an ultrasound my wife s ob gyn has an ultrasound machine in her office when the doctor couldn t hear a fetal heartbeat weeks she used the ultrasound to see if everything was ok it was on her next visit my wife asked another doctor in the office if they read the ultrasounds themselves or if they had a radiologist read the pictures the doctor very vehemently insisted that they were qualified to read the ultrasound and radiologists were not my wife is concerned about this she saw a tv show a couple months back something like or dateline nbc etc where an expert on fetal ultrasounds a radiologist was showing all the different deffects that could be detected using the ultrasound should my wife be concerned should we take the pictures to a radiologist for a second opinion and if so where would we find such an expert in chicago we don t really have any special medical reason to be concerned but if a radiologist will be able to see things the ob gyn can t then i don t see why we shouldn t use one any thoughts doug bank private systems division dougb ecs comm mot com motorola communications sector dougb nwu edu schaumburg illinois dougb casbah acns nwu edu
sci.med	re good grief was re candida albicans what is it in article noringc snsx kmo netcom com noring netcom com jon noring writes in article rind enterprise bih harvard edu david rind writes in article davpa ida liu se david partain writes someone i know has recently been diagnosed as having candida albicans a disease about which i can find no information apparently it has something to do with the body s production of yeast while at the same time being highly allergic to yeast can anyone out there tell me any more about it i have a lot of info about this disease i am posting a small amount of it that i extracted if more is required e mail me ls gemini albany edu please it takes me some time to upload it so be advised only request it if you really want it here is some info from infotrac health reference center also check you local of univeristy library they most likely have the infotrac cd rom this info was taken from infotrac health reference center oct oct heading candida albicans dictionary definition mosby s medical and nursing dictionary nd edition copyright the c v mosby company candida albicans a common budding yeastlike microscopic fungal organism normally present in the mucous membranes of the mouth intestinal tract and vagina and on the skin of healthy people under certain circumstances it may cause superficial infections of the mouth or vagina and less commonly serious invasive systemic infection and toxic reaction see also candidiasis infotrac health reference center oct oct the material contained in health reference center oct oct is provided only for informational purposes and should not be construed as medical advice or instruction consult your health professional for advice relating to a medical problem or condition heading candida albicans yogurt cure for candida acidophilus il v east west natural health july august p text available text copyright east west partners another folk remedy receives the blessing of medical study researchers have found that eating a cup of yogurt a day drastically reduces a woman s chances of getting vaginal candida a yeast infection for the year long study researchers at long island jewish medical center in new hyde park new york recruited women who suffered from chronic yeast infections for the first months the women each day ate ounces of yogurt containing lactobacillus acidophilus for the second months the women did not eat yogurt the researchers examined the women each month and found that incidents of colonization and infection were significantly lower during the period when the women ate yogurt the fungus candida albicans can live in the body without doing harm it is an overproliferation of the fungus that leads to infection the researchers concluded that the l acidophilus bacteria found in some brands of yogurt retard overgrowth of the fungus streptococcus thermophilus and l bulgaricus are the two bacteria most commonly used in commercial yogurt production neither one appears to exert a protective effect against candida albicans however women who want to try yogurt as a preventive measure should choose a brand that lists acidophilus in its contents end infotrac health reference center oct oct the material contained in health reference center oct oct is provided only for informational purposes and should not be construed as medical advice or instruction consult your health professional for advice relating to a medical problem or condition heading candida albicans candida monilia infections caused by fungi infectious diseases by harold c neu the columbia univ coll of physicians surgeons complete home medical guide edition p text available text copyright crown publishers inc candida monilia this disease is usually caused by candida albicans a fungus that we all carry at one time or another in some circumstances though the organisms proliferate producing symptomatic infection of the mouth intestines vagina or skin when the mouth or vagina are infected the disease is commonly called thrush vaginitis caused by candida often afflicts women on birth control pills or antibiotics there is itching and a white cheesy discharge among narcotic addicts candida infections can lead to heart valve inflammation diagnosis of candida infections is confirmed by cultures and blood tests treatment can be with amphotericin b or orally with ketoconazole there is no evidence that candida in the intestine of normal individuals leads to disease all people at one time or another have candida in their intestines claims for any benefit from special diets or chronic antifungal agents is not based on any solid evidence end i hope this is informative larry live from new york it s saturday night tonight s special guest lawrence silverberg from the state university of new york albany aka ls gemini albany edu
sci.med	re how to diagnose lyme really in article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu gordon banks writes in article apr ns cc lehigh edu mcg ns cc lehigh edu marc gabriel writes now i m not saying that culturing is the best way to diagnose it s very hard to culture bb in most cases the point is that dr n has developed a feel for what is and what isn t ld this comes from years of experience no serology can match that unfortunately some would call dr n a quack and accuse him of trying to make a quick buck why do you think he would be called a quack the quacks don t do cultures they poo poo doing more lab tests this is lyme believe me i ve seen it many times the lab tests aren t accurate we ll treat it now also is dr n s practice almost exclusively devoted to treating lyme patients i don t know any orthopedic surgeons who fit this pattern they are usually gps are you arguing that the lyme lab test is accurate the books that i ve read say that in general the tests have a chance of being correct the tests result in a large number of both false positives and false negatives i am in the latter case we could get those same odds by rolling the dice ralph yozzo yozzo watson ibm com from the beautiful and historic new york state mid hudson valley
sci.med	re barbecued foods and health risk in article c sqv edb acsu buffalo edu sfegus ubvm cc buffalo edu writes in article cup portal com mmm cup portal com mark robert thorson writes no there is something called the delany amendment which makes carcinogenic food additives illegal in any amount this was passed by congress in the i think what we have to keep in mind is that even though it may be illegal to commercially produce sell food with carcinogenic substances it is not illegal for people to do such to their own food smoking etc is this true whoa what did you say your name was address ssn smoking foods eh i think the gov t would like to know about this brian
sci.med	any info on vasomotor rhinitis i recently attended an allery seminar steroid nasal sprays were discussed afterward on a one on one basis i asked the speaker what if none of the vancanese beconase nasalide nasalcort or nasalchrom work nor do any oral decongestants work she replied that she saw an article on vasomotor rhinitis that this is not an allergic reaction and that nothing other than the afrin s and such would work which in my case is true i want to find out as much as possible about this since i am going to see my allergist in may and want to be armed to the hilt with information since nothing he has done with me has helped me at all and i have had no relief for months please respond if you know anything about this and or please let me know what articles might be helpful that i could look up in the library
sci.med	bates method for myopia does the bates method work i first heard about it in this newsgroup several years ago and i have just got hold of a book how to improve your sight simple daily drills in relaxation by margaret d corbett authorized instructor of the bates method published in it talks about vision improvement by relaxation and exercise has there been any study on whether this method actually works if it works is it by actually shortening the previously elongated eyeball or by increasing the lens s ability to flatten itself in order to compensate for the too long eyeball since myopia is the result of eyeball elongation seems to me the most logical approach for correction is to find a way to reverse the process i e shorten it somehow preferably non surgically has there been any recent studies on this where can i find them i know rk works by changing the curvature of the cornea to compensate for the shape of eyeball but if there is a way to train the muscles to shorten the eyeball back to its correct length that would be even better bates s idea right thanks for any information
sci.med	re good grief was re candida albicans what is it in article noringc snsx kmo netcom com noring netcom com jon noring writes there is no convincing evidence that such a disease exists there s a lot of evidence it just hasn t been adequately gathered and published in a way that will convince the die hard melancholic skeptics who quiver everytime the word anecdote or empirical is used snort ah there go my sinuses again for example dr ivker who wrote the book sinus survival always gives oh wow a classic textbook hey they laughed at einstein too before any other treatment a systemic anti fungal such as nizoral to his new patients if they ve been on braod spectrum anti biotics or more times in the last two years he s kept a record of the results and for over patients found that over of his patients get significant relief of allergic sinus symptoms of course this is only the beginning for his program yeah i ll bet tomorrow the world listen uncontrolled studies like this are worthless in my case as i reported a few weeks ago i was developing the classic symptoms outlined in the yeast connection i agree it is a poorly written book e g extreme sensitivity to plastics vapors etc which i never had before started in november within one week of full dosage of sporanox the sensitivity to chemicals has fully disappeared i can now sit on my couch at home without dying after two minutes i m also greatly improved in other areas as well i m sure you are you sound like the typical hysteric hypochondriac who responds to miracle cures of course i have allergy symptoms etc i am especially allergic to molds yeasts etc it doesn t take a rocket scientist to figure out that if one has excessive colonization of yeast in the body and you have a natural allergy to yeasts that a threshold would be reached where you would have perceptible symptoms yeah it makes sense to me so of course it should be taken seriously snort also yeast do produce toxins of various sorts and again you don t have to be a rocket scientist to realize that such toxins can cause problems in some people yeah it sounds reasonable to me of course the question is whether a person who is immune compromised as tests showed i was from over years of antibiotics nutritionally deficiencies because of the stress of infections and allergies etc oh really what tests immune compromised my ass more like credulous malingerer this is a psychiatric syndrome can develop excessive yeast colonization somewhere in the body it is a tough question to answer since testing for excessive yeast colonization is not easy one almost has to take an empirical approach to diagnosis fortunately sporanox is relatively safe unlike past anti fungals still have to be careful however so there s no reason any longer to withhold sporanox treatment for empirical reasons you know it s a shame that a drug like itraconazole is being misused in this way it s ridiculously expensive and potentially toxic the trouble is that it isn t toxic enough so it gets abused by quacks btw some would say to try nystatin unfortunately most yeast grows hyphae too deep into tissue for nystatin to have any permanent affect you ll find a lot of people who are on nystatin all the time the only good thing about nystatin is that it s relatively cheap and when taken orally non toxic but oral nystatin is without any systemic effect so unless it were given iv it would be without any effect on your sinuses i wish these quacks would first use iv nystatin or amphotericin b on people like you that would solve the yeast problem once and for all in summary i appreciate all of the attempts by those who desire to keep medicine on the right road but methinks that some who hold too firmly to the party line are academics who haven t been in the trenches long enough actually treating patients if anybody doctors included said to me to my face that there is no evidence of the yeast connection i cannot guarantee their safety for their incompetence ripping off their lips is justified as far as i am concerned perhaps a little haldol would go a long way towards ameliorating your symptoms are you paying for this treatment out of your own pocket i d hate to think my insurance premiums are going towards this steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima harvard rayssd linus m c spdcc dyer
sci.med	star gartds sp info wanted a friend s daughter has been diagnosed with an eye disease called star gartds or something close it is apparently genetic according to her and affects every fourth generation she would appreciate any information about this condition if anything is available via ftp please point me in the right direction the old frog s almanac a salute to that old frog hisse f ryugen fisher v x sco xenix gt ladysmith british columbia canada serving central vancouver island with public access usenet and internet mail home to the holocaust almanac
sci.med	re seizures infantile spasms reply to dufault lftfld enet dec com md after many metabolic tests body structure tests and infection virus tests the doctors still do not know quite what type of siezures he is having although they do have alot of evidence that it is now pointing to infantile spasms this is where we stand right now as i know now these particular types of disorders are still not really well understood by the medical community infantile spasms have been well understood for quite some time now you are seeing a pediatric neurologist aren t you if not i strongly recommend it there is a new anticonvulsant about to be released called felbamate which may be particularly helpful for infantile spasms as for learning more about seizures ask your doctor or his nurse about a local support group david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire wi this is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities bertrand russell
sci.med	accupuncture and aids a friend of mine is seeing an acupuncturist and wants to know if there is any danger of getting aids from the needles thanks alice
sci.med	re any info on vasomotor rhinitis disclaimer i m a sufferer not a doctor i m not sure there s a really sharp distinction between allergic and vasomotor rhinitis basically vasomotor rhinitis means your nose is stuffy when it has no reason to be not even an identifiable allergy decongestants and steroid sprays work for vasomotor rhinitis also i can get surprising relief from purely superficial measures such as saline moisturizing spray and moisturizing gel michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
sci.med	ovarian cancer treatment centers a relative of mine has recently been diagnosed with stage papillary cell ovarian cancer we are urgently seeking the best place in the country for treatment for this does anyone have any suggestions as you might suspect time is of the essence thanks for your help bob
sci.med	broken rib hello i am not sure if this is the right conference to ask this question however here i go i am a commercial fisherman and i fell about weeks ago down into the hold of the boat and broke or cracked a rib and wrenched and bruised my back and left arm my question i have been to a doctor and was told that it was best to do nothing and it would heal up with no long term effect and indeed i am about better however the work i do is very hard and i am still not able to go back to work the thing that worries me is the movement or clunking i feel and hear back there when i move certain ways i heard some one talking about the rib they broke years ago and that it still bothers them any opinions thanx and cheers jc oneb almanac bc ca john cross the old frog s almanac home of the almanac unix users group v public access usenet x vancouver island british columbia waffle xenix
sci.med	re accupuncture and aids aliceb tea two eng sun com alice taylor writes a friend of mine is seeing an acupuncturist and wants to know if there is any danger of getting aids from the needles ask the practitioner whether he uses the pre sterilized disposable needles or if he reuses needles sterilizing them between use in the former case there s no conceivable way to get aids from the needles in the latter case it s highly unlikely though many practitioners use the disposable variety anyway euclid euclid k standard disclaimers apply it is a bit ironic that we need the wave model of light to understand the propagation of light only through that part of the system where it leaves no trace hudson nelson university physics
sci.med	hismanal et al side effects can someone tell me whether or not any of the following medications has been linked to rapid excessive weight gain and or a distorted sense of taste or smell hismanal azmacort a topical steroid to prevent asthma vancenase also you may have guessed i m an allergy sufferer but i m beginning to suspect i m also the victim of a dr toliberal with the prescription p the allergist i went to last oct simply inquired about my symptons i was suffering chronic asthma attacks gave me a battery of allergy tests and went down a checklist of drugs a photocopied sheet i ve gained out lbs since then though i haven t eaten more or much differently than before i vsuffered depression fatigue and i ve experienced a foul smell and sense of taste for about the last two months i mentioned the lack of smell and taste to this dr in feb and he said my sinuses did look a bit swollen he just looked up my nose with his little light the same one used for ears and prescribed prednisone and sulfatrim ds severe headaches and a rash resulted particularly after my week s worth of prednisone ran out now he wants to do a rhinoscopy to see if i have a bleeding ulcer or polyps in my sinus cavities i m considering seeing another doctor any suggestions advice i d really appreciate it
sci.med	re endometriosis in article apr rock concert net naomi rock concert net naomi t courter writes can anyone give me more information regarding endometriosis i heard it s a very common disease among women and if anyone can provide names of a specialist surgeon in the north carolina research triangle park area raleigh durham chapel hill who is familiar with the condition i would really appreciate it thanks naomi naomi your best bet is to look in the yellow pages and find a listing for obgyn doc in the area you wish any obgyn doc is familiar with endometriosis and its treatments shalom len howard md
sci.med	questions about spect imaging i have become involved in a project to further develop and improve the performance of spect single photon emission computerized tomography imaging we will eventually have to peddle this stuff somewhere and so as i move this thing along i would like to know what is the current resolution of spect imaging what kinds of jobs is spect used for specifically what kind of specific jobs could i hope that spect could be used for if its resolution improved say to close to that of pet positron emission tomography and how much does a spect machine cost how much does a single spect image cost if anyone knows the answer to any or all of these questions or where i could find that answer i would be very grateful indeed thanks in advance for any replies dave eliezer eliezer physics llnl gov
sci.med	mind machines i recently learned about these devices that supposedly induce specific brain wave frequencies in their users simply by wearing them mind machines consist of led gogles head phones and a microprocessor that controls them they strobe the closed eye and send sound pulses in sync with the flashing leds i understand that these devices are experimental but they are available i ve heard claims that they can induce sleep and light trance states for relaxation essentially they are supposed to work without aid of drugs etc i would think that if they work as reported they would be incredibly useful the few sources i ve seen are biased they are selling the things and a friend who has tried them claims that every home should have one so do these mind machines aka light and sound machines work can they induce alpha theta and or delta waves in a person wearing them what research if any has been done on them could they be used in lieu of a tranquilizer or are they just another bit of quackery web homer homer tripos com
sci.med	re paxil request i don t know much and in fact have asked questions here myself my doctor told me that paxil is a cleaner sri in that it produces fewer side effects as to a comparison between zoloft and prozac i m not able to remember what he said about the differences between those two drugs sorry
sci.med	burzynski s antineoplastons i ve recently listened to a tape by dr stanislaw burzynski in which he claims to have discovered a series naturally occuring peptides with anti cancer properties that he names antineoplastons burzynski says that his work has met with hostility in the united states despite the favorable responses of his subjects during clinical trials what is the generally accepted opinion of dr burzynski s research he paints himself as a lone researcher with a new breakthrough battling an intolerant medical establishment but i have no basis from which to judge his claims two weeks ago however i read that the nih s department of alternative medicine has decided to focus their attention on burzynski s work their budget is so small that i imagine they wouldn t investigate a treatment that didn t seem promising any opinions on burzynski s antineoplastons or information about the current status of his research would be appreciated joshua schwimmer jschwimmer eagle wesleyan edu
sci.med	re do we need a radiologist to read an ultrasound in article apr lmpsbbs comm mot com dougb ecs comm mot com writes my wife s ob gyn has an ultrasound machine in her office when the doctor couldn t hear a fetal heartbeat weeks she used the ultrasound to see if everything was ok it was on her next visit my wife asked another doctor in the office if they read the ultrasounds themselves or if they had a radiologist read the pictures the doctor very vehemently insisted that they were qualified to read the ultrasound and radiologists were not stuff deleted this is one of those sticky areas of medicine where battles frequently rage with respect to your ob i suspect that she has been certified in ultrasound diagnostics and is thus allowed to use it and bill for its use many cardiologists also use ultrasound echocardiography and are in fact considered by many to be the experts i am not sure where obs stand in this regard but i suspect that they are at least as good as the radioligists flame retardant suit ready kenneth gilbert university of pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit not a programmer
sci.med	altitude adjustment i live at sea level and am called upon to travel to high altitude cities quite frequently on business the cities in question are at to feet of altitude one of them especially is very polluted often i feel faint the first two or three days i feel lightheaded and my heart seems to pound a lot more than at sea level also it is very dry in these cities so i will tend to drink a lot of water and keep away from dehydrating drinks such as those containing caffeine or alcohol thing is i still have symptoms how can i ensure that my short trips there no i don t usually have a week to acclimatize are as comfortable as possible is there something else that i could do a long time ago possibly two years ago there was a discussion here about altitude adjustment has anyone saved the messages many thanks vida
sci.med	re any info on vasomotor rhinitis in article r t a njq europa eng gtefsd com draper gnd wtp gtefsd com writes i recently attended an allery seminar steroid nasal sprays were discussed afterward on a one on one basis i asked the speaker what if none of the vancanese beconase nasalide nasalcort or nasalchrom work nor do any oral decongestants work she replied that she saw an article on vasomotor rhinitis that this is not an allergic reaction and that nothing other than the afrin s and such would work which in my case is true there has been some recent research on vasomotor rhinitis that shows that ipratroprium bromide atrovent inhaled nasally is an effective treatment for many sufferers it has been approved for this use and is available with a nasal adaptor in canada in the us the fda has yet to approve this use of the drug but it is available as an oral inhaler for copd and these can be adapted for intranasal use kenneth gilbert university of pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit not a programmer
sci.med	relief of pain caused by cancer i am not sure if this is the proper group to post this to but here goes anyway about five years ago my mother was diagnosed with having cancer in the lymph nodes under one of her arms after the doctors removed the cancerous area she had full movement of her arm with only slight aching under her arm when she moved it over the course of the next two years the aching got more severe and her complaining to the doctors produced the explanation that it was scar tissue causing the pain at this time her doctor suggested that some physiotherapy should be employed to break up the scar tissue while attending one of her therapy sessions while her arm was being manipulated some damage occured nerve which caused the level of pain to permanently increase severly controlled by tylenol s and some loss of use of the arm palsied wrist and almost no outward lateral movement with great persistence on her part the doctors looked further into the issue and discovered that not all of the cancer had been removed and another tumor had grown under the arm this was removed also but the pain in the arm has not decreased the doctors are not sure exactly why the pain is persisting but feel some sort of nerve damage has occured and they have employed tylenol and soon morphine to relieve the pain she has tried acupuncture by this only provides minor reductions in pain and is only short term my questions are has anyone has heard of similar cases and what if anything was done to reduce the levels of pain are their methods to block nerves so that the pain can be reduced are their methods to restore nerves so that loss of arm function can be restored any general suggestions on pain reduction would be greatly appreciated please respond by email because i do not always get chance to read this group if anyone knows of some literature that may be useful to this case or another newsgroup that i should be posting this to it would also be appreciated gregory w luft internet vgwlu calgary chevron com chevron petroleum techonology company tel fifth ave s w fax calgary alberta canada t p l
sci.med	acutane fibromyalgia syndrome and cfs to nyeda cnsvax uwec edu david nye there is a person on the fido cfs echo who claims that he was cured of cfs by taking accutane he also claims that you are using it in the treatment of fibromyalgia syndrome are you using accutane in the treatment of fibromyalgia syndrome have you used it for cfs have you gotten good results with it are you aware of any double blind studies on the use of accutane in these conditions thank you in advance for all replies i think they should rename waco tx to wacko tx
sci.med	re krillean photography i think he means girlie photography a good place to find it is in non descript little places that usually just say books on the outside of the building in black and white john berryhill
sci.med	re good grief was re candida albicans what is it dyer spdcc com steve dyer writes in article noringc snsx kmo netcom com noring netcom com jon noring writes there is no convincing evidence that such a disease exists there s a lot of evidence it just hasn t been adequately gathered and published in a way that will convince the die hard melancholic skeptics who quiver everytime the word anecdote or empirical is used snort ah there go my sinuses again for example dr ivker who wrote the book sinus survival always gives oh wow a classic textbook hey they laughed at einstein too before any other treatment a systemic anti fungal such as nizoral to his new patients if they ve been on braod spectrum anti biotics or more times in the last two years he s kept a record of the results and for over patients found that over of his patients get significant relief of allergic sinus symptoms of course this is only the beginning for his program yeah i ll bet tomorrow the world listen uncontrolled studies like this are worthless in my case as i reported a few weeks ago i was developing the classic symptoms outlined in the yeast connection i agree it is a poorly written book e g extreme sensitivity to plastics vapors etc which i never had before started in november within one week of full dosage of sporanox the sensitivity to chemicals has fully disappeared i can now sit on my couch at home without dying after two minutes i m also greatly improved in other areas as well i m sure you are you sound like the typical hysteric hypochondriac who responds to miracle cures of course i have allergy symptoms etc i am especially allergic to molds yeasts etc it doesn t take a rocket scientist to figure out that if one has excessive colonization of yeast in the body and you have a natural allergy to yeasts that a threshold would be reached where you would have perceptible symptoms yeah it makes sense to me so of course it should be taken seriously snort also yeast do produce toxins of various sorts and again you don t have to be a rocket scientist to realize that such toxins can cause problems in some people yeah it sounds reasonable to me of course the question is whether a person who is immune compromised as tests showed i was from over years of antibiotics nutritionally deficiencies because of the stress of infections and allergies etc oh really what tests immune compromised my ass more like credulous malingerer this is a psychiatric syndrome can develop excessive yeast colonization somewhere in the body it is a tough question to answer since testing for excessive yeast colonization is not easy one almost has to take an empirical approach to diagnosis fortunately sporanox is relatively safe unlike past anti fungals still have to be careful however so there s no reason any longer to withhold sporanox treatment for empirical reasons you know it s a shame that a drug like itraconazole is being misused in this way it s ridiculously expensive and potentially toxic the trouble is that it isn t toxic enough so it gets abused by quacks btw some would say to try nystatin unfortunately most yeast grows hyphae too deep into tissue for nystatin to have any permanent affect you ll find a lot of people who are on nystatin all the time the only good thing about nystatin is that it s relatively cheap and when taken orally non toxic but oral nystatin is without any systemic effect so unless it were given iv it would be without any effect on your sinuses i wish these quacks would first use iv nystatin or amphotericin b on people like you that would solve the yeast problem once and for all in summary i appreciate all of the attempts by those who desire to keep medicine on the right road but methinks that some who hold too firmly to the party line are academics who haven t been in the trenches long enough actually treating patients if anybody doctors included said to me to my face that there is no evidence of the yeast connection i cannot guarantee their safety for their incompetence ripping off their lips is justified as far as i am concerned perhaps a little haldol would go a long way towards ameliorating your symptoms are you paying for this treatment out of your own pocket i d hate to think my insurance premiums are going towards this steve dyer dyer you re rude medicine is not a totallly scientific endevour it s often practiced in a disorganized manner most early treatment of non life threatening illness is done on a guess hazarded after anecdotal evidence given by the patient it s an educated guess by a trained person but it s still no more than a guess it s cheaper and simpler to medicate first and only deal further with those people who don t respond there are diseases that haven t been described yet and the root cause of many diseases now described aren t known read a book on gastroenterology sometime if you want to see a lot of them after scientific methods have run out then it s the patient s freedom of choice to try any experimental method they choose and it s well recognized by many doctors that medicine doesn t have all the answers this person said that they had relief by taking the medicine maybe it s a miracle cure maybe it s valid how do you know you might argue with the reasoning the conclusions but your disparaging attack is unwarranted why don t you present an convincing argument for you r beliefs instead of wasting our time in an ad hominem attack jackie
sci.med	re hismanal et al side effects in article apr lrc edu kjiv lrc edu writes can someone tell me whether or not any of the following medications has been linked to rapid excessive weight gain and or a distorted sense of taste or smell hismanal azmacort a topical steroid to prevent asthma vancenase hismanal astemizole is most definitely linked to weight gain it really is peculiar that some antihistamines have this effect and even more so an antihistamine like astemizole which purportedly doesn t cross the blood brain barrier and so tends not to cause drowsiness steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima harvard rayssd linus m c spdcc dyer
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article apr walter bellcore com jchen ctt bellcore com writes the funny thing is the personaly stories about reactions to msg vary so greatly some said that their heart beat speeded up with flush face some claim their heart skipped beats once in a while both of these symptoms are related tachycardia getting a flushed face is due to the heart pumping the blood faster than a regular pulse i suspect this is related to an increase in sodium levels in the blood since note sodium chloride monosodium glutamate both are sodium compounds our bodies require sodium but like everything else one can get too much of a good thing some reacted with headache again this could be related to increased blood flow from increased heart rate from the sodium in the msg distended crainial arteries essentially one of many causes of headaches there is no discrepency her necessarily some stomach ache well stomache ache and vomiting tend to be related again not necessarily a discrepency more likely a related reaction vomiting occurs as a response to get rid of a noxious compound an organism has eaten if a person can t digest the stuff entirely possible the list of stuff people are allergic to is quite long and lacks an enzyme to break it down gastrointestinal distress stomach or belly ache would be expected some had watery eyes or running nose these are respiratory reactions and are now considered to be similar to vomitting they are a way for the body to dispose of noxious compounds they are adaptiove responses of course it is possible some other food or environmental compound could be responsible for the symptoms but it s important to remember that a lot opf these effets can be additive synergystic subtractive etc etc it would be necessary to know exactly what was in a dish and what else the person was exposed to respiratory does sound suspicious but resopiration and heart rate are connected things in the body are far from simple very inetractive place the vertebrate body some had itchy skin or rashes people respond in a myriad of ways to the same compound it depends upon what it is about the compound that pisses off their body pollen for example of some plants aggrivates breathing in many people because when inhaled it sets of the immune system and an histamine attack is launched the immune system goes overboard causing the allergic person a lot of misery and someone with an allergy to some pollens will have trouble with some herb teas that contain pollens chamomile linden etc drinking the substance can perturb that person s system as much as inhaling it more serious accusations include respiration difficulty see above and don t think that heart rate changes and circulatory problems are not serious they can be deadly and brain damage the area of the brain effected is the neuroendocrine system controlling the release of gonadotropin the supra hormone controlling the cyclical release of testosterone and estradiol as well as somatostatin and other steroids testing for effective dose would be uh a wee bit unethical now here is a new one vomiting my guess is that msg becomes the number one suspect of any problem in this case it might be just food poisoning absolutely but it could also be some synergystic mess from eating say undetected shrimp or mushrooms to which many are allergic plus too much alcohol and inhaling too much diesel fumes biking home plus let s say having contracted flu from one s sig other days before from drinking out of the same glass could be all sorts of things but it might be the msg if you heard things about msg you may think it must be it if noone else got sick its likely not food poisoning probably stomach flu or an undetected thing the guy s allergic to anyway the human body s not a machine people vary widely in their responses and a lot of reactions are due to combinations of things dianne murray wcsbeau ccs carleton ca
sci.med	re eumemics was eugenics a person posted certain stuff to this newsgroup which were highly selected quotes stripped of their context here is the complete posting which was quoted lacking the context of other postings in which it was made probably within years a new type of eugenics will be possible maybe even sooner we are now mapping the human genome we will then start to work on manipulation of that genome using genetic engineering we will be able to insert whatever genes we want no breeding no hybrids etc the ethical question is should we do this should we make a race of disease free long lived arnold schwartzenegger muscled supermen even if we can probably within years it will be possible to disassemble and re assemble our bodies at the molecular level not only will flawless cosmetic surgery be possible but flawless cosmetic psychosurgery what will it be like to store all the prices of shelf priced bar coded goods in your head and catch all the errors they make in the store s favor at safeway what will it be like to mentally edit and spell check your responses to the questions posed by a phone caller selling vacation time share options indeed we are today a nation at risk the threat is not from bad genes but bad memes memes are the basic units of culture as opposed to genes which are the units of genetics we stand on the brink of new meme amplification technologies harmful memes which formerly were restricted in their destructive power will run rampant over the countryside laying waste to the real benefits that future technology has to offer for example jeremy rifkin has been busy trying to whip up emotions against the new genetically engineered tomatoes under development at calgene this guy is inventing harmful memes a virtual memetic typhoid mary we must expand the public health laws to include quarantine of people with harmful memes they should not be allowed to infect other people with their memes against genetically engineered food electromagnetic fields and the space shuttle solid rocket boosters
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition have you ever met a chemist a food industry businessman you must personally know a lot of them for you to be able to be so certain that they are evil mosters whose only goal is to inflict as much pain and disease as possible into the general public gimme a break in article apr rtsg mot com lundby rtsg mot com walter f l undby writes is there such a thing as msg monosodium glutamate sensitivity superstition anybody here have experience to the contrary person who is very sensitive to msg and whose wife and kids are too i want to know why the food industry wants to put msg in food because it makes the food taste better why does it put salt in food same reason i really don t understand obviously somebody in the industry give me some reasons why is it an industrial byproduct that needs getting get rid of of course not although i would think that a person like you would be a big fan of such recycling if that were the case is it to cover up the fact that the recipes are not very good or the food is poor quality on occasion that s probably the case but in general the idea is that msg improves the flavor of certain foods do some of you get a sadistic pleasure out of making some of us sick no do the taste testers have some defect in their flavor sensors mouth etc that msg corrects no i really don t understand obviously also nitrosiamines sp as i recall these are natural by products of heating up certain foods they don t put it in there have a number of criteria in choosing how to process food they want to make it taste good look good sell for a good price etc the fact that they use it tells me that they think that it contributes to those goals they are interested in one of those goals is not making people sick such a goal woud quickly drive them out of business and for no benefit i think outlaw the use of these substances without warning labels as large as those on cig packages warning of what in california there is a law requiring that anything which contains a carcinogen be labeled that includes every gasline pump most foods and even money cleaning machines because nickel is a mild carcinogen the result is that now nobody pays any attention to any of the warnings require of comparable products on the market to be free of these substances and state that they are free of msg dyes nitrosiamines and sulfites on the package why what if not of people wanted to buy this ugly rotten not as tasty food i guess it will just be wasted huh how terribly efficient while at it outlaw yellow dye for that matter why dye food because it makes food look better i like food that looks good if vitamin companies want to do that it is fine but who are you to tell them how to make vitamins who are you to tell me whether i should buy flavored vitamins for my kids who can t swallow the conventional ones whole keep food food quit putting in junk how do you define junk is putting salt in food bad what about pepper what about alcohol as a preservative what about sealing jars with wax what about vinegar you seem to think that chemicals are somehow different than food the fact is that all foods are chemicals you are just expressing an irrational prejudice against food processing brian
sci.med	re krillean photography in reply to todamhyp charles unlv edu s message of mon apr gmt newsgroups sci energy sci image processing sci anthropology alt sci physics new theories sci skeptic sci med alt alien visitors subject re krillean photography references apr unlv edu distribution text follows this line todamhyp charles unlv edu brian m huey writes i am looking for any information supplies that will allow do it yourselfers to take krillean pictures i m thinking that education suppliers for schools might have a appartus for sale but i don t know any of the companies any info is greatly appreciated in case you don t know krillean photography to the best of my knowledge involves taking pictures of an most of the time organic object between charged plates the picture will show energy patterns or spikes around the object photographed and depending on what type of object it is the spikes or energy patterns will vary one might extrapolate here and say that this proves that every object within the universe as we know it has its own energy signature there have been a number of scientific papers in peer reviewed journals published about kirlian photography in the early s sorry i can t be more specific but it is a long time since i read them they would describe what is needed and how to set up the apparatus these papers demonstrate that the auras obtained by kirlian photography can be completely explained by the effect of the electric currents used on the moisture in the object being photographed it has nothing to do with the energy signature of organic objects i did a science project on kirlian photography when i was in high school i was able to obtain wonderful auras from rocks and pebbles and the like by first dunking them in water barbara bls syseng anu edu au i generally avoid temptation unless i can t resist it mae west
sci.med	home medical tests i am looking for current sources for lists of all the home medical tests currently legally available i believe this trend of allowing tests at home where feasible decreased medical costs by a factor of or more and allows the patient some time and privacy to consider the best action from the results of such tests in fact i believe home medical tests and certain basic tests for serious diseases such as cancer heart disease should be offered free to the american public this could actually help to reduce national medical costs since many would have an earlier opportunity to know about and work toward recuperation or cure mike romano sir i admit your gen ral rule that every poet is a fool but you yourself may serve to show it that every fool is not a poet a pope
sci.med	selective placebo jb romdas uclink berkeley edu ella i baff writes jb jb ron roth recommends once you have your hypoglycemia confirmed through the jb proper channels you might consider the following jb diet omitted jb jb ron what do you consider to be proper channels this sounds suspiciously i m glad it caught your eye that s the purpose of this forum to educate those eager to learn about the facts of life that phrase is used to bridle the frenzy of all the would be respondents who otherwise would feel being left out as the proper authorities to be consulted on that topic in short it means absolutely nothing jb like a blood chemistry glucose tolerance and the like suddenly chemistry jb exists you know perfectly well that this person can be saved needless trouble jb and expense with simple muscle testing and hair analysis to diagnose no jb confirm any aberrant physiology but then again maybe that s what you mean muscle testing and hair analysis eh so what other fascinating space age medical techniques do you use do you sit under a pyramid over night as well to shrink your brain back to normal after a mind expanding day at your save the earth clinic jb were you able to understand dick king s post that of diseases is not thy jb evaluate the statistic you cited from the new england journal of medicine coul once i figure out what you are trying to say i ll still have to wrestle with the possibility of you conceivably not being able to understand my answer to your question jb ron have you ever thought about why you never post in misc health alterna jb tive and insist instead upon insinuating your untrained non medical often jb delusional notions of health and disease into this forum i suspect from your jb apparent anger toward mds and heteropathic medicine that there may be an you little psychoanalytical rascal you got me all figured out ja jb underlying father problem of course i can confirm this by surrogate muscle jb testing one of my patients while they ponder my theory to see if one of their jb previously weak indicator muscles strengthens or do you have reservations jb about my unique methods of diagnosis jb jb john badanes dc ca jb romdas uclink berkeley edu oh man when are you going to start teaching all this stuff i ll bet everyone on this net must be absolutely dying to learn more about going beyond spinal adjustments and head straight for the mind for some freudian subluxation ron rosereader p in the next world you re on your own rosemail usenet rose media hamilton
sci.med	re my new diet it works great in article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu gordon banks writes in article apr omen uucp caf omen uucp chuck forsberg wa kgx writes weight rebound is a term used in the medical literature on obesity to denote weight regain beyond what was lost in a diet cycle there are any number of terms which mean one thing to can you provide a reference to substantiate that gaining back the lost weight does not constitute weight rebound until it exceeds the starting weight or is this oral tradition that is shared only among you obesity researchers not one but two obesity in europe proceedings of the st european congress on obesity annals of ny acad sci gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon chuck forsberg wa kgx tektronix reed omen caf author of ymodem zmodem professional yam zcomm and dsz omen technology inc the high reliability software v nw sauvie is rd portland or
sci.med	re broken rib in article d zb b w w oneb almanac bc ca jc oneb almanac bc ca writes fell about weeks ago down into the hold of the boat and broke or cracked a rib and wrenched and bruised my back and left arm my question i have been to a doctor and was told that it was best to do nothing and it would heal up with no long term effect and indeed i am about better however the work i do is very hard and i am still not able to go back to work the thing that worries me is the movement or clunking i feel and hear back there when i move certain ways i heard some one talking about the rib they broke years ago and that it still bothers them any opinions your doctor is right it is best to do nothing besides taking some pain medication initially some patients don t like this and expect or demand to have something done in these cases some physicians will tape the patient put a lot of heavy adhesive tape around the chest or prescribe an elastic binder all this does is make it harder to breath but the patient doesn t feel cheated because soemthing is being done about the problem either way the end results are the same howard doyle doyle pitt edu
sci.med	re altitude adjustment in article mdavcr mda ca vida mdavcr mda ca vida morkunas writes i live at sea level and am called upon to travel to high altitude cities quite frequently on business the cities in question are at to feet of altitude one of them especially is very polluted mexico city bogota la paz often i feel faint the first two or three days i feel lightheaded and my heart seems to pound a lot more than at sea level also it is very dry in these cities so i will tend to drink a lot of water and keep away from dehydrating drinks such as those containing caffeine or alcohol thing is i still have symptoms how can i ensure that my short trips there no i don t usually have a week to acclimatize are as comfortable as possible is there something else that i could do an unconventional remedy that you might try for altitude sickness in the andes is chewing coca leaves or taking teas made from coca leaves you might notice that many of the natives have wads in their mouths the tea can be obtained in s american pharmacies this remedy alleviates some of the lightheadedness and dizziness but don t try to jog with it i ve tried this when travelling and hiking in peru and ecuador the amount of cocaine you would ingest are too minute to cause any highs also it is a good idea to eat lightly and dress warm while adjusting to high altitudes
sci.med	help for kidney stones my girlfriend is in pain from kidney stones she says that because she has no medical insurance she cannot get them removed my question is there any way she can treat them herself or at least mitigate their effects any help is deeply appreciated advice referral to literature etc thank you dave carvell pk wvnvms wvnet edu
sci.med	stargardts disease thanks to aldridge netcom com i now know a bit more about stargardt s disease aka juvenile macular distrophy but i would like to learn more first what is the general prognosis is blindness the result second what treatments if any are available the old frog s almanac a salute to that old frog hisse f ryugen fisher v x sco xenix gt ladysmith british columbia canada serving central vancouver island with public access usenet and internet mail home to the holocaust almanac
sci.med	re selective placebo ron roth rose com ron roth writes jb romdas uclink berkeley edu ella i baff writes jb jb ron roth recommends once you have your hypoglycemia confirmed through the jb proper channels you might consider the following jb diet omitted jb jb ron what do you consider to be proper channels this sounds suspiciously i m glad it caught your eye that s the purpose of this forum to educate those eager to learn about the facts of life that phrase is used to bridle the frenzy of all the would be respondents who otherwise would feel being left out as the proper authorities to be consulted on that topic in short it means absolutely nothing an apt description of the content of just about all ronroth s posts to date at least there s entertainment value though it is diminishing
sci.med	sudden numbness in arm i experienced a sudden numbness in my left arm this morning just after i completed my th set of deep squats today was my weight training day and i was just beginning my routine all of a sudden at the end of the th set my arm felt like it had gone to sleep it was cold turned pale and lost of its strength the weight i used for squats wasn t that heavy i was working hard but not at effort i waited for a few minutes trying to shake the arm back to life and then continued with chest exercises flyes with lighter dumbells than i normally use but i dropped the left dumbell during the first set and experienced continued arm weakness into the second so i quit training and decided not to do my usual hour on the ski machine either i ll take it easy for the rest of the day my arm is still somewhat numb and significantly weaker than normal my hand still tingles a bit down to the thumb color has returned to normal and it is no longer cold horrid thoughts of chunks of plaque blocking a major artery course through my brain i m vegetarian and pretty fit from my daily exercise regimen so that can t be it could a pinched nerve from the bar cause these symptoms i hope has this happened to anyone else nothing like this has ever happened to me before does it come with age thanks tom tom molnar unix systems group university of toronto computing communications
sci.med	re good grief was re candida albicans what is it if anybody doctors included said to me to my face that there is no evidence of the yeast connection i cannot guarantee their safety for their incompetence ripping off their lips is justified as far as i am concerned this doesn t sound like candida albicans to me john badanes dc ca romdas uclink berkeley edu
sci.med	re good grief was re candida albicans what is it in article dyer spdcc com steve dyer writes in article noring netcom com jon noring writes good grief again why the anger i must have really touched a raw nerve let s see i had symptoms that resisted all other treatments sporanox totally alleviated them within one week hmmm i must be psychotic yesss that s it my illness was all in my mind thanks steve for your correct diagnosis you must have a lot of experience being out there in trenches treating hundreds of patients a week thank you i m forever in your debt jon oops gotta run the men in white coats are ready to take me away haha to the happy home where i can go twiddle my thumbs basket weave and moan about my sinuses charter member infj club if you re dying to know what infj means be brave e mail me i ll send info jon noring noring netcom com jkn international ip fred s gourmet chocolate carlton place phone chips world s best livermore ca v mail who are you read alt psychology personality that s where the action is
sci.med	modified sense of taste in cancer pt what does a lack of taste of foods or a sense of taste that seems off when eating foods in someone who has cancer mean what are the possible causes of this why does it happen pt has stage ii breast cancer and is taking tamoxifin also has stage iv lung cancer with known cna metastasis and is taking klonopin also had cranial radiation treatments thanks not a doctor but trying to understand family member s illness
sci.med	should i be angry at this doctor am i justified in being pissed off at this doctor last saturday evening my year old son cut his finger badly with a knife i took him to a local urgent and general care clinic at pm the clinic was open till pm the receptionist went to the back and told the doctor that we were there and came back and told us the doctor would not see us because she had someplace to go at and did not want to be delayed here during the next few minutes in response to my questions with several trips to the back room the receptionist told me the doctor was doing paperwork in the back the doctor would not even look at his finger to advise us on going to the emergency room the doctor would not even speak to me she would not tell me the doctor s name or her own name when asked who is in charge of the clinic she said i don t know i realize that a private clinic is not the same as an emergency room but i was quite angry at being turned away because the doctor did not want to be bothered my son did get three stitches at the emergency room i m still trying to find out who is in charge of that clinic so i can write them a letter we will certainly never set foot in that clinic again mary ryan mryan stsci edu space telescope science institute baltimore maryland
sci.med	re alt psychoactives fyi i just posted this on alt psychoactives as a response to what the group is for a note to the users of alt psychoactives this group was originally a takeoff from sci med the reason for the formation of this group was to discuss prescription psychoactive drugs such as antidepressents tri cyclics prozac lithium etc antipsychotics melleral sp etc ocd drugs anafranil etc and so on and so forth it didn t take long for this group to degenerate into a psudo alt drugs atmosphere that s to bad for most of the serious folks that wanted to start this group in the first place have left and gone back to sci med where you have to cypher through hundreds of unrelated articles to find psychoactive data it was also to discuss real life experiences and side effects of the above mentioned oh well i had unsubscribed to this group for some time and i decided to check it today to see if anything had changed nope same old nine or ten crap articles that this group was never intended for i think it is very hard to have a meaningfull group without it being moderated too bad oh well obviously no one really cares bill claussen would anyone be interested in starting a similar moderated group bill claussen
sci.med	re should i be angry at this doctor report them to your local bbb better business bureau bill claussen
sci.med	re acutane fibromyalgia syndrome and cfs daniel prince daniel prince f n z calcom socal com wrote i think they should rename waco tx to wacko tx i know it is just a joke but please remember the people of waco did not ask david koresh to be a lunatic there he just happened waco is a lovely town i would think someone living in the home of flakes and nut would be more sensitive
sci.med	re good grief was re candida albicans what is it in article romdas uclink berkeley edu ella i baff writes if anybody doctors included said to me to my face that there is no evidence of the yeast connection i cannot guarantee their safety for their incompetence ripping off their lips is justified as far as i am concerned this doesn t sound like candida albicans to me no just a little anger normally i don t rip people s lips off except when my candida has overcolonized and i become fungus man jon charter member infj club if you re dying to know what infj means be brave e mail me i ll send info jon noring noring netcom com jkn international ip fred s gourmet chocolate carlton place phone chips world s best livermore ca v mail who are you read alt psychology personality that s where the action is
sci.med	re thrush was good grief was re candida albicans what is it in article apr ucsvax sdsu edu mccurdy ucsvax sdsu edu mccurdy m writes dyer is beyond rude yeah yeah yeah i didn t threaten to rip your lips off did i snort there have been and always will be people who are blinded by their own knowledge and unopen to anything that isn t already established given what the medical community doesn t know i m surprised that he has this outlook duh for the record i have had several outbreaks of thrush during the several past few years with no indication of immunosuppression or nutritional deficiencies i had not taken any antobiotics listen thrush is a recognized clinical syndrome with definite characteristics if you have thrush you have thrush because you can see the lesions and do a culture and when you treat it it generally responds well if you re not otherwise immunocompromised noring s anal retentive idee fixe on having a fungal infection in his sinuses is not even in the same category here nor are these walking neurasthenics who are convinced they have candida from reading a quack book my dentist who sees a fair amount of thrush recommended acidophilous after i began taking acidophilous on a daily basis the outbreaks ceased when i quit taking the acidophilous the outbreaks periodically resumed i resumed taking the acidophilous with no further outbreaks since then so steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima harvard rayssd linus m c spdcc dyer
sci.med	need reference multiple personalities disorders and allergies i heard third hand not the best form of information that there was recently published results of a study on multiple personality disorder syndrome patients revealing some interesting clues that the root cause of allergy may have a psychological trigger or basis what i heard about this study was that in one personality a mpds patient exhibited no observable or clinical signs of inhalant allergy scratch tests were used according to what i heard while in other personalities they showed obvious allergy symptoms including testing a full on scratch tests for particular inhalants if this is true it is truly fascinating but i d like to know if this study was ever done and if so what the study really showed and where the study is published any help out there jon noring charter member infj club if you re dying to know what infj means be brave e mail me i ll send info jon noring noring netcom com jkn international ip fred s gourmet chocolate carlton place phone chips world s best livermore ca v mail who are you read alt psychology personality that s where the action is
sci.med	re my new diet it works great in article apr omen uucp caf omen uucp chuck forsberg wa kgx writes in article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu gordon banks writes can you provide a reference to substantiate that gaining back the lost weight does not constitute weight rebound until it exceeds the starting weight or is this oral tradition that is shared only among you obesity researchers not one but two obesity in europe proceedings of the st european congress on obesity annals of ny acad sci hmmm these don t look like references to me is passive aggressive behavior associated with weight rebound brian
sci.med	re food related seizures in article bu edu dozonoff bu edu david ozonoff writes many of these cereals are corn based after your post i looked in the literature and located two articles that implicated corn contains tryptophan and seizures the idea is that corn in the diet might potentiate an already existing or latent seizure disorder not cause it check to see if the two kellog cereals are corn based i d be interested years ago when i was an intern an obese young woman was brought into the er comatose after having been reported to have grand mal seizures why attending a corn festival we pumped her stomach and obtained what seemed like a couple of liters of corn much of it intact kernals after a few hours she woke up and was fine i was tempted to sign her out as acute corn intoxication gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re help for kidney stones in article apr wvnvms wvnet edu pk wvnvms wvnet edu writes my girlfriend is in pain from kidney stones she says that because she has no medical insurance she cannot get them removed my question is there any way she can treat them herself or at least mitigate their effects any help is deeply appreciated advice referral to literature morphine or demerol is about the only effective way of stopping pain that severe obviously she ll need a prescription to get such drugs can t she go to the county hospital or something gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	getting aids from acupuncture needles someone wrote in expressing concern about getting aids from acupuncture needles unless your friend is sharing fluids with their acupuncturist who themselves has aids it is unlikely not impossible they will get aids from acupuncture needles generally even if accidently inoculated the normal immune response should be enough to effectively handle the minimal contaminant involved with acupuncture needle insertion most acupuncturists use disposable needles use once and throw away they do this because you are not the only one concerned about transmission of diseases via this route so it s good business to advertise disposable needlesused here these needles tend to be of a lower quality however being poorly manufactured and too sharp in my opinion they tend to snag bloodvessels on insertion compared to higher quality needles if i choose to use acupuncture for a given complaint that patient will get their own set of new needles which are sterilized between treatments the risk here for hepatitis hiv etc transmission is that i could mistakenly use an infected persons needles accidently on the wrong patient but clear labelling and paying attention all but eliminates this risk better quality needles tend to slide past vessels and nerves avoiding unpleasant painful snags and hematomas so i use them acupuncture needles come in many lengths and thicknesses but they are all solid when compared to their injection style cousins in china herbal solutionsand western pharmaceuticals are occasionally injected into meridian points purported to have tcm physiologic effects and so require the same hollow needles used for injecting fluid medicine this means thinkingtiny that a samll amount of tissue the diameter of the needle bore will be injected into the body as it would be in a typical shot when the skin is puntured on the other hand when the solid acupuncture needle is inserted the skin tends to squeeze the needle from the tip to the level of insertion such that any cooties that haven t been schmeared away with alcohol before insertion tend to remain on the surface of the skin minimizing invasion from the exterior of course in tcm the body s exterior is protected by the wei protective qi so infection is unlikely or in other words there is a normal inflammatory and immune response that accompanies tissue damage incurred at the puncture site while i m fairly certain your friend will not have a transferable disease transmitted to them via acupuncture needle insertion i would like to know for what complaint they have consulted the acupuncturist not to know if it would be harmful but to know if it would be helpful john badanes dc ca romdas uclink berkeley edu
sci.med	re do we need a radiologist to read an ultrasound in article blue cis pitt edu kenneth gilbert kxgst pitt edu writes this is one of those sticky areas of medicine where battles frequently rage with respect to your ob i suspect that she has been certified in ultrasound diagnostics and is thus allowed to use it and bill for its use many cardiologists also use ultrasound echocardiography and are in fact considered by many to be the experts i am not sure where obs stand in this regard but i suspect that they are at least as good as the radioligists flame retardant suit ready if it were my wife i would insist that a radiologist be involved in the process radiologist are intensively trained in the process of interpreting diagnostic imaging data and are aware of many things that other physicians aren t aware of would you want a radiologist to deliver your baby if you wouldn t then why would you want a ob gyn to read your ultrasound study in my opinion the process should involve a ob gyn and a radiologist e j ed draper repar d radiologic pathologic institute the university of texas m d anderson cancer center draper odin mda uth tmc edu
sci.med	corneal erosion abrasions for several years i have been dealing with reccurring corneal erosion there does not seem to be much known about the cause of such a problem my current episode is pretty bad since it is located in the middle of the cornea if it s bad enough the usual treatment for it is puncture therapy however my doctor this time is trying to let it heal by itself by putting a contact lens to protect the area apparently the problem is not that common but i d be curious if anyone else out there has a similar problem perhaps to see if a cause can be found mark london mrl nerus pfc mit edu
sci.med	re altitude adjustment in article mdavcr mda ca vida mdavcr mda ca vida morkunas writes i live at sea level and am called upon to travel to high altitude cities quite frequently on business the cities in question are at to feet of altitude one of them especially is very polluted mexico city bogota la paz often i feel faint the first two or three days i feel lightheaded and my heart seems to pound a lot more than at sea level also it is very dry in these cities so i will tend to drink a lot of water and keep away from dehydrating drinks such as those containing caffeine or alcohol thing is i still have symptoms how can i ensure that my short trips there no i don t usually have a week to acclimatize are as comfortable as possible is there something else that i could do go three days early preliminary acclimatization takes days it takes weeks or months for full acclimatization could you be experiencing some jet lag too
sci.med	re good grief was re candida albicans what is it in article noringc snsx kmo netcom com noring netcom com jon noring writes in article rind enterprise bih harvard edu david rind writes there is no convincing evidence that such a disease exists there s a lot of evidence it just hasn t been adequately gathered and published in a way that will convince the die hard melancholic skeptics who quiver everytime the word anecdote or empirical is used no there s no evidence that would convince any but the most credulous the evidence is identical to the sort of evidence that has been used to justify all sorts of quack treatments for quack diseases in the past medicine on the right road but methinks that some who hold too firmly to the party line are academics who haven t been in the trenches long enough actually treating patients i like the implication here it must not be that the quacks making millions off such diseases are biased rather that those who doubt their existence don t understand the real world it seems easy to picture a th centure snake oil salesman saying the same thing however i have been in the trenches long enough to have seen multiple quack diseases rise and fall in popularity systemic yeast syndome seems to be making a resurgence it had fallen off a few years ago there will be new such diseases i m sure with best selling books and expensive therapies if anybody doctors included said to me to my face that there is no evidence of the yeast connection i cannot guarantee their safety for their incompetence ripping off their lips is justified as far as i am concerned well this of course is convincing i guess i d better start diagnosing any illnesses that people want so that i can keep my lips david rind rind enterprise bih harvard edu
sci.med	re burzynski s antineoplastons a good source of information on burzynski s method is in the cancer industry by pulitzer prize nominee ralph moss also a non profit organization called people against cancer which was formed for the purpose of allowing cancer patients to access information regarding cancer therapies not endorsed by the cancer industry but which have shown highly promising results all of which are non toxic anyone interested in cancer therapy should contact this organi zation asap people against cancer po box otho ia fax peace greg nigh
sci.med	oxaprozin anyone have any information on the effects origin of oxaprozin it s marketed under the name daypro and appears to be an anti inflammatory is it similar to naproxin stronger tia gms
sci.med	thrush was good grief was re candida albicans what is it in article aldridgec th ya netcom com aldridge netcom com jacquelin aldri writes dyer spdcc com steve dyer writes etc dyer you re rude medicine is not a totallly scientific endevour it s often practiced in a disorganized manner most early treatment of non life threatening illness is done on a guess hazarded after anecdotal evidence given by the patient it s an educated guess by a trained person but it s still no more than a guess it s cheaper and simpler to medicate first and only deal further with those people who don t respond dyer is beyond rude there have been and always will be people who are blinded by their own knowledge and unopen to anything that isn t already established given what the medical community doesn t know i m surprised that he has this outlook for the record i have had several outbreaks of thrush during the several past few years with no indication of immunosuppression or nutritional deficiencies i had not taken any antobiotics my dentist who sees a fair amount of thrush recommended acidophilous after i began taking acidophilous on a daily basis the outbreaks ceased when i quit taking the acidophilous the outbreaks periodically resumed i resumed taking the acidophilous with no further outbreaks since then mike mccurdy university computing services disclaimer san diego state university mccurdy ucsvax sdsu edu everything i say may be wrong
sci.med	re barbecued foods and health risk in article c mv v o world std com rsilver world std com richard silver writes some recent postings remind me that i had read about risks associated with the barbecuing of foods namely that carcinogens are generated is this a valid concern if so is it a function of the smoke or the elevated temperatures is it a function of the cooking elements wood or charcoal vs lava rocks i wish to know more thanks i ve read mixed opinions on this singed meat can contain carcinogens but unless you eat barbecued meat every meal you re probably not at much risk i think i will live life on the edge and grill my food i ve also read that using petroleum based charcoal starter can put some unwanted toxins in your food or at least unwanted odor i ve been using egg carton cups dipped in paraffin for fire starters and it actually lights faster and easier than lighter fluid several people have told me that they have excellent results with a chimney basically a steel cylinder with wholes punched in the side i ve been meaning to get one of these but one hasn t presented itself while i ve been out shopping you can make one from a coffee can but i buy my coffee as whole beans in a bag so i haven t had a big enough can laying around jason c austin j c austin larc nasa gov
sci.med	re seizures infantile spasms in article apr dbased nuo dec com dufault lftfld enet dec com md writes if anyone knows of any database or newsgroup or as i mentioned up above any information relating to this disorder i would sure appreciate hearing from you i am not trying to play doctor here but only trying to gather information about it as i know now these particular types of disorders are still not really well understood by the medical community and so i m going to see now if somehow the internet can at least give me alittle insight thanks there is no database for infantile spasms nor a newsgroup that i know of the medical library will be the best source of information for you gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re how to diagnose lyme really in article c sy lf watson ibm com yozzo watson ibm com ralph yozzo writes why do you think he would be called a quack the quacks don t do cultures they poo poo doing more lab tests this is lyme believe me i ve are you arguing that the lyme lab test is accurate if you culture out the spirochete it is virtually certain the patient has lyme i suppose you could have contamination in an exceptionally sloppy lab but normally not there are no false positives gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re ob gyn residency in article r bv e terminator rs itd umich edu donald mackie med umich edu donald mackie writes fmgs who are not citizens are like all aliens in a difficult situation only citizens get to vote here so non citizens are of little or no interest to legislators also the non citizen may well be in the middle of processing for resident alien status there is a stron sense that rocking the boat eg suing a residency program will delay the granting of that status perhaps for ever one should be aware that foreign doctors admitted for training are ineligible to apply for resident alien status in order to get the green card they have to return to their country and apply at the embassy there of course many somehow get around this problem often it is by agreeing to practice in a town with a need and then the congressman from that district tacks a rider onto a bill saying dr x will be allowed to have permanent residency in the us a lot of bills in congress have such riders attached to them marrying a us citizen is the most common although now they are even cracking down on that and trying to tell us citizens they must follow their spouse back to the phillipines or whereever gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re liver spots in article apr news eng convex com cash convex com peter cash writes what causes those little brown spots on older people s hands are they called liver spots because they re sort of liver colored or do they indicate some actual liver dysfunction senile keratoses have nothing to do with the liver gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re dana faber cancer institute in article apr etek chalmers se e salim etek chalmers se salim chagan writes can anyone send me the adress to dana faber cancer institute in boston usa missing r dana farber cancer institute binney street boston ma karl dussik alumnus department of biostatistics and epidemiology
sci.med	re food related seizures sharon paulson paulson tab larc nasa gov wrote much deleted the fact that this happened while eating two sugar coated cereals made by kellog s makes me think she might be having an allergic reaction to something in the coating or the cereals of the four of us in our immediate family kathryn shows the least signs of the hay fever running nose itchy eyes etc but we have a lot of allergies in our family history including some weird food allergies nuts mushrooms many of these cereals are corn based after your post i looked in the literature and located two articles that implicated corn contains tryptophan and seizures the idea is that corn in the diet might potentiate an already existing or latent seizure disorder not cause it check to see if the two kellog cereals are corn based i d be interested david ozonoff md mph boston university school of public health dozonoff med itvax bu edu east concord st t c boston ma
sci.med	imitrex and heart attacks my girlfriend just started taking imitrex for her migraine headaches her neurologist diagnosed her as having depression and suffering from rebound headaches due to daily doses of analgesics she stopped taking all analgesics and caffine as of last thursday the weekend was pretty bad but she made it through with the help of imitrex about every hours her third injection of imitrex during the worst of the withdrawl on friday and six hours after the first of the day left her very sick skin was flushed sweating vomiting and had severe headache pain it subsided in an hour or so since then she has been taking imitrex as needed to control the pain immediately after taking it she has increased head pain for ten minutes dizziness and mild nausea and mild chest pains a friend of hers mentioned that her doctor was wary of imitrex because it had caused heart attacks in several people apparently the mild chest pains were common in these other people prior to there attacks is this just rumor has anyone else heard of these symptoms my girlfriend also has mitral valve prolapse opinions are mine or others but definately not mda s lauger ssdgwy mdc com mcdonnell douglas aerospace huntington beach california usa
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article apr lmpsbbs comm mot com dougb comm mot com doug bank writes from dougb comm mot com doug bank subject re is msg sensitivity superstition date thu apr gmt in article apr tms micro ti com david tms micro ti com david thomas writes lots of editing out of previuos posts here is another anecdotal story i am a picky eater and never wanted to try chinese food however i finally tried some in order to please a girl i was seeing at the time i had never heard of chinese restaurant syndrome a group of us went to the restaurant and all shared different dishes it didn t taste great but i decided it wasn t so bad we went home and went to bed early i woke up at am and puked my guts outs i threw up for so long that i m not kidding i pulled a muscle in my tongue dry heaves and everything no one else got sick and i m not allergic to anything that i know of suffice to say that i wont go into a chinese restaurant unless i am physically threatened the smell of the food makes me ill and that is a psycholgical reaction when i have been dragged in to suffer through beef and broccoli without any sauces i insist on no msg i haven t gotten sick yet funny about that my wife my girlfriend at the time used to get sick after eating certain foods at various asian restaurants and never knew why she d go pale and sweaty and then vomit copiously a couple of us ventured a connection with msg and her response was msg what s that it also happened when she pigged out on some brands of savoury crackers and chips which i noticed later had msg on the label don t know about double blinds but avoiding msg has stopped her being sick at restaurants cheers john john nash email nash biologysx lan nrc ca institute for biological sciences national research council of canada cell physiology group ottawa ontario canada disclaimer all opinions are mine not nrc s
sci.med	how to interview a doctor my insurance company encourages annual physicals and at my age i m thinking that biannual physicals at least might be a good idea therefore i m shopping for a gp might as well get a good one could the assembled net wisdom suggest things i should look for or point me to the faq archive if on this topic if there is one please email i suspect that this topic is real net clutter bait dk
sci.med	re sudden numbness in arm in article c u lg c g gpu utcc utoronto ca molnar bisco canet ca tom molnar writes i experienced a sudden numbness in my left arm this morning just after i completed my th set of deep squats today was my weight training day and i was just beginning my routine all of a sudden at the end of the th set my arm felt like it had gone to sleep it was cold turned pale and lost of its strength the weight i used for squats wasn t that heavy i was working hard but not at effort i waited for a few minutes trying to shake the arm back to life and then continued with chest exercises flyes with lighter dumbells than i normally use but i dropped the left dumbell during the first set and experienced continued arm weakness into the second so i quit training and decided not to do my usual hour on the ski machine either i ll take it easy for the rest of the day my arm is still somewhat numb and significantly weaker than normal my hand still tingles a bit down to the thumb color has returned to normal and it is no longer cold horrid thoughts of chunks of plaque blocking a major artery course through my brain i m vegetarian and pretty fit from my daily exercise regimen so that can t be it could a pinched nerve from the bar cause these symptoms i hope it likely has nothing to do with chunks of plaque but it sounds like you may have a neurovascular compromise to your arm and you need medical attention before doing any more weight lifting gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re too many mris in article apr informix com proberts informix com paul roberts writes in article apr kestrel edu king reasoning com dick king writes i recall reading somewhere during my youth in some science popularization book that whyle isotope changes don t normally affect chemistry a consumption of only heavy water would be fatal and that seeds watered only with heavy water do not sprout does anyone know about this i also heard this i always thought it might make a good eposide of columbo for someone to be poisoned with heavy water it wouldn t show up in any chemical test that would be a very expensive toxin indeed daniel r field aka infospunj joe are you late dfield oboe calpoly edu dan no but i m working on it biochemistry biotechnology california polytechnic state u
sci.med	seek sedative information has any one heard of a sedative called rhoepnol made by larouche i believe any info as to side effects or equivalent tranquillizers thanks this will just take a minute i m done it worked on my machine
sci.med	re good grief was re candida albicans what is it in article noringc u bvy netcom com noring netcom com jon noring writes in article dyer spdcc com steve dyer writes in article noring netcom com jon noring writes good grief again why the anger i must have really touched a raw nerve let s see i had symptoms that resisted all other treatments sporanox totally alleviated them within one week hmmm i must be psychotic yesss that s it my illness was all in my mind thanks steve for your correct diagnosis you must have a lot of experience being out there in trenches treating hundreds of patients a week thank you i m forever in your debt jon oops gotta run the men in white coats are ready to take me away haha to the happy home where i can go twiddle my thumbs basket weave and moan about my sinuses ever heard of something called the placebo effect i think dyer is reacting because it looks to be yet another case of the same old quackery over and over again it true that current medical knowledge is limited but do you realize just how many quacks exist eager to suck your it s playing the lottery at best if the results you got were so clear and obvious would you mind trying a little experiment to see if it is true it would be quite simple have sugar pills and have real pills take one set for one week and the other set for another week without knowing which ones are the real pills then at the end of the weeks compare the results let s say you re wife would know which are the real ones if what you are experiencing is true there should be a marked difference between each week john john nielsen magnus consultant to you baldrick the renaissance was just something that happened to other people wasn t it the black adder
sci.med	re bates method for myopia dr willian horatio bates born and graduated from med school medical career hampered by spells of total amnesia published in his great work the cure of imperfect eyesight by treatment with out glasses he made claims about how the eye actually works that are simply not true aldous huxley was one of the more high profile beleivers in his system mr huxley while giving a lecture on bates system forgot the lecture that he was supposedely reading and had to put the paper right up to his eyes and then resorted to a magnifying glass from his pocket book have been written debunking this technique however they remain less read than the original fraud cheers jc oneb almanac bc ca john cross the old frog s almanac home of the almanac unix users group v public access usenet x vancouver island british columbia waffle xenix
sci.med	re should i be angry at this doctor in article apr stsci edu mryan stsci edu writes am i justified in being pissed off at this doctor last saturday evening my year old son cut his finger badly with a knife i took him to a local urgent and general care clinic at pm the story deleted be bothered my son did get three stitches at the emergency room i m still trying to find out who is in charge of that clinic so i can write them a letter we will certainly never set foot in that clinic again the people in charge already know what kind of care they are providing and they don t give a rat s ass about your repeat business you are much more likely to do some good writing to local newspapers and broadcast news shows if you do keep the letter short and to the point so they don t discard it out of hand and emphasize exactly what you are upset about it s possible that the local health department can help you complain to someone official but really that clinic exists for the sole purpose of generating walk in income through advertising and nothing you can do will change them all you can hope for is to help someone else avoid them i m glad it sounds like your son did ok anyway my opinion only of course steve
sci.med	re krillean photography i did a science project on kirlian photography when i was in high school i was able to obtain wonderful auras from rocks and pebbles and the like by first dunking them in water i know this is a little weird but i know that world magazine you know national geo for children did a very simple and concise article on kirlian photography they had some neat pictures too a friend of mine s mother had a book on kirlian photography only it s photographs took a radiologist to interpret they world magazine warned us all that it was very dangerous probably to stop curious children from experimenting with it mind you this was years ago at least and boy does that say something about my age sarah brundage sbrun oregon uoregon edu
sci.med	hicn medical newsletter part cut here hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april gonorrhea colorado source mmwr date apr the number of reported cases of gonorrhea in colorado increased from to after declining steadily during the s in comparison in the united states reported cases of gonorrhea in continued an overall decreasing trend this report summarizes an analysis of the increase in gonorrhea in colorado in and characterizes trends in the occurrence of this disease from through in cases of gonorrhea were reported to the colorado department of health cdh compared with cases reported in during reported cases increased and among females and males respectively table similar increases occurred among blacks whites and hispanics and respectively however the number of reported cases with race not specified increased from to and constituted of all reported cases in although the largest proportional increases by age groups occurred among persons aged years and greater than or equal to years these age groups accounted for only of all reported cases in persons in the year age group accounted for the largest number of reported cases of gonorrhea during and the highest age group specific rate per reported cases of gonorrhea increased in the five county denver metropolitan area population but decreased elsewhere in the state table half the cases of gonorrhea in the denver metropolitan area occurred in of the census tracts these represent neighborhoods considered by sexually transmitted diseases stds acquired immunodeficiency syndrome aids field staff to be the focus of gang and drug activity when compared with the number of gonorrhea cases diagnosed among men in the denver metro health clinic dmhc the primary public std clinic in the denver metropolitan area increased in and the number of visits by males to the clinic increased concurrently the number of cases diagnosed among women increased by among self identified heterosexual men the number of gonorrhea cases diagnosed at dmhc increased and comprised of all cases diagnosed in males while the number of cases diagnosed among self identified homosexual men remained low and in and respectively four selected laboratories in the metropolitan denver area i e hmo university hospital nonprofit family planning and commercial were contacted to determine whether gonorrhea culture positivity rates increased gonorrhea culture positivity rates in three of four laboratories contacted increased from to while the rate was virtually unchanged in the fourth i e nonprofit family planning from through reported cases of gonorrhea among whites and hispanics in colorado decreased in comparison reported cases among blacks hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april increased since figure during the population in colorado increased for blacks for hispanics and for whites in the gonorrhea rate for blacks per persons was times that for whites per and times that for hispanics per table among black females reported cases of gonorrhea increased from through in the year age group among black males cases increased from through in both the and year age groups reported by ka gershman md jm finn ne spencer msph std aids program re hoffman md state epidemiologist colorado dept of health jm douglas md denver dept of health and hospitals surveillance and information systems br div of sexually transmitted diseases and hiv prevention national center for prevention svcs cdc editorial note the increase in reported gonorrhea cases in colorado in may represent an overall increase in the occurrence of this disease or more complete reporting stimulated by visitations to laboratories by cdh surveillance staff during the increases in confirmed gonorrhea cases at dmhc and in culture positivity rates in three of four laboratories suggest a real increase in gonorrhea rather than a reporting artifact however the stable culture positivity rate in the nonprofit family planning laboratory which serves a network of clinics statewide indicates that the gonorrhea increase did not uniformly affect all segments of the population one possible explanation for the increased occurrence of gonorrhea in colorado may be gang and drug related sexual behavior as implicated in a recent outbreak of drug resistant gonorrhea and other stds in colorado springs although the high morbidity census tracts in the denver metropolitan area coincide with areas of gang and drug activity this hypothesis requires further assessment to examine the possible role of drug use implicated previously as a factor contributing to the national increase in syphilis the cdh std aids program is collecting information from all persons in whom gonorrhea is diagnosed regarding drug use exchange of sex for money or drugs and gang affiliation the gonorrhea rate for blacks in colorado substantially exceeds the national health objective for the year per objective a race is likely a risk marker rather than a risk factor for gonorrhea and other stds risk markers may be useful for identifying groups at greatest risk for stds and for targeting prevention efforts moreover race specific variation in std rates may reflect differences in factors such as socioeconomic status access to medical care and high risk behaviors in response to the increased occurrence of gonorrhea in colorado interventions initiated by the cdh std aids program include targeting partner notification in the denver metropolitan area to persons in groups at increased risk e g year old black females and year old black males implementing a media campaign e g public service radio hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april announcements signs on city buses newspaper advertisements and posters in schools and clinics to promote awareness of std risk and prevention targeted primarily at high risk groups and developing teams of peer educators to perform educational outreach in high risk neighborhoods the educational interventions are being developed and implemented with the assistance of members of the target groups and with input from a forum of community leaders and health care providers references cdc table ii cases of selected notifiable diseases united states weeks ending december and december nd week mmwr cdc gang related outbreak of penicillinase producing neisseria gonorrhoeae and other sexually transmitted diseases colorado springs colorado mmwr cdc relationship of syphilis to drug use and prostitution connecticut and philadelphia pennsylvania mmwr rolfs rt goldberg m sharrar rg risk factors for syphilis cocaine use and prostitution am j public health andrus jk fleming dw harger dr et al partner notification can it control epidemic syphilis ann intern med gershman ka rolfs rt diverging gonorrhea and syphilis trends in the s are they real am j public health public health service healthy people national health promotion and disease prevention objectives full report with commentary washington dc us department of health and human services public health service dhhs publication no phs hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april effectiveness in disease and injury prevention impact of adult safety belt use on restraint use among children less than years of age selected states and source mmwr date apr motor vehicle crashes are the leading cause of death among children and young adults in the united states and account for more than million years of potential life lost before age annually child safety seats and safety belts can substantially reduce this loss from through all states passed legislation requiring the use of child safety seats or safety belts for children although these laws reduce injuries to young children by an estimated motor vehicle crash related injuries remain a major cause of disability and death among u s children while the use of occupant restraints among children decreases inversely with age usage for those aged years aged years and aged years in addition parents who do not use safety belts themselves are less likely to use restraints for their children to characterize the association between adult safety belt use and adult reported consistent use of occupant restraints for the youngest child aged less than years within a household cdc analyzed data obtained from the behavioral risk factor surveillance system brfss during and this report summarizes the findings from this study data were available for respondents aged greater than or equal to years in states that participated in brfss a population based random digit dialed telephone survey and administered a standard injury control and child safety module developed by cdc of these respondents had a child aged less than years in their household each respondent was asked to specify the child s age and the frequency of restraint use for that child the two categories of child restraint and adult safety belt use in this analysis were consistent use i e always buckle up and less than consistent use i e almost always sometimes rarely or never buckle up data were weighted to provide estimates representative of each state software for survey data analysis sudaan was used to calculate point estimates and confidence intervals statistically significant differences were defined by p values of less than each of the states had some type of child restraint law of these six arizona kentucky maine nebraska rhode island and west virginia had no law requiring adults to use safety belts four idaho maryland pennsylvania and washington had a secondary enforcement mandatory safety belt law i e a vehicle had to be stopped for a traffic violation before a citation for nonuse of safety belts could be issued and one state new york had a primary enforcement mandatory safety belt law i e vehicles could be stopped for a safety belt law violation alone in nine states child passenger protection hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april laws included all children aged less than years but the other two states used both age and size of the child as criteria for mandatory restraint use the analysis in this report subgrouped states into those having a law requiring adult safety belt use law states and those without such a law no law states overall of children aged less than years reportedly were not consistently restrained during automobile travel both child restraint use and adult restraint use were significantly higher p less than chi square test in law states than in no law states versus and versus respectively high rates of restraint use for children aged less than or equal to year were reported by both adults indicating consistent and less than consistent safety belt use figure adults with consistent use reported high rates of child occupant restraint use regardless of the child s age range for year olds to for year olds in comparison for adults reporting less than consistent safety belt use the rate of child occupant restraint use declined sharply by the age of the child range for year olds to for year olds when comparing children of consistent adult safety belt users with children of less than consistent adult safety belt users confidence intervals overlap for the two youngest age groups i e aged less than and year reported child occupant restraint use in law states generally exceeded that in no law states regardless of age of child table in addition higher adult educational attainment was significantly associated with increased restraint use for children a factor that has also been associated with increased adult safety belt use reported by national center for injury prevention and control national center for chronic disease prevention and health promotion cdc editorial note the findings in this report are consistent with others indicating that adults who do not use safety belts themselves are less likely to employ occupant restraints for their children because these nonbelted adults are at increased risk of crashing and more likely to exhibit other risk taking behaviors children traveling with them may be at greater risk for motor vehicle injury educational attainment of adult respondents was inversely associated with child restraint use in this report accordingly occupant protection programs should be promoted among parents with low educational attainment because low educational attainment is often associated with low socioeconomic status such programs should be offered to adults through health care facilities that serve low income communities or through federal programs i e head start that are directed at parents with young children injury prevention programs emphasize restraining young children in addition however efforts must be intensified to protect child occupants as hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april they become older parents especially those with low educational attainment those who do not consistently wear safety belts and those from states that do not have mandatory safety belt use laws should be encouraged to wear safety belts and to protect their children by using approved child safety seats and safety belts finally the increased use of restraints among children may increase their likelihood of using safety belts when they become teenagers the age group characterized by the lowest rate of safety belt use and the highest rate of fatal crashes references cdc childhood injuries in the united states am j dis child partyka sc papers on child restraints effectiveness and use washington dc us department of transportation national highway traffic safety administration report no dot hs guerin d mackinnon d an assessment of the california child passenger restraint requirement am j public health hall w orr b suttles d et al progress report on increasing child restraint usage through local education and distribution programs chapel hill north carolina university of north carolina at chapel hill highway safety research center national highway traffic safety administration occupant protection trends in cities washington dc us department of transportation national highway traffic safety administration wagenaar ac molnar lj margolis lh characteristics of child safety seat users accid anal prev shah bv barnwell bg hunt pn lavange lm software for survey data analysis sudaan version software documentation research triangle park north carolina research triangle institute lund ak voluntary seat belt use among u s drivers geographic socioeconomic and demographic variation accid anal prev margolis lh wagenaar ac molnar lj use and misuse of automobile child restraint devices am j dis child hunter ww stutts jc stewart jr rodgman ea characteristics of seatbelt users and non users in a state with a mandatory use law health education hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april research arizona idaho kentucky maine maryland nebraska new york pennsylvania rhode island washington and west virginia hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april publication of cdc surveillance summaries source mmwr date apr since cdc has published the cdc surveillance summaries under separate cover as part of the mmwr series each report published in the cdc surveillance summaries focuses on public health surveillance surveillance findings are reported for a broad range of risk factors and health conditions summaries for each of the reports published in the most recent march issue of the cdc surveillance summaries are provided below all subscribers to mmwr receive the cdc surveillance summaries as well as the mmwr recommendations and reports as part of their subscriptions surveillance for and comparison of birth defect prevalences in two geographic areas united states problem condition cdc and some states have developed surveillance systems to monitor the birth prevalence of major defects reporting period covered this report covers birth defects surveillance in metropolitan atlanta georgia and selected jurisdictions in california for the years description of system the california birth defects monitoring program and the metropolitan atlanta congenital defects program are two population based surveillance systems that employ similar data collection methods the prevalence estimates for diagnostic categories were based on data for for births in california and births in metropolitan atlanta the prevalences in the two areas were compared adjusting for race sex and maternal age by using poisson regression results regional differences in the prevalence of aortic stenosis fetal alcohol syndrome hip dislocation dysplasia microcephalus obstruction of the kidney ureter and scoliosis lordosis may be attributable to general diagnostic variability however differences in the prevalences of arm hand limb reduction encephalocele spina bifida or trisomy down syndrome are probably not attributable to differences in ascertainment because these defects are relatively easy to diagnose interpretation regional differences in prenatal diagnosis and pregnancy termination may affect prevalences of trisomy and spina bifida however the reason for differences in arm hand reduction is unknown but may be related to variability in environmental exposure heterogeneity in the gene pool or random variation actions taken because of the similarities of these data bases several collaborative studies are being implemented in particular the differences in the birth prevalence of spina bifida and down syndrome will focus attention on the impact of prenatal diagnosis authors jane schulman ph d nancy hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april jensvold m p h gary m shaw dr p h california birth defects monitoring program march of dimes birth defects foundation larry d edmonds m s p h anne b mcclearn division of birth defects and developmental disabilities national center for environmental health cdc influenza united states problem condition cdc monitors the emergence and spread of new influenza virus variants and the impact of influenza on morbidity and mortality annually from october through may reporting period covered this report covers u s influenza surveillance conducted from october through may description of system weekly reports from the vital statistics offices of cities provided an index of influenza s impact on mortality who collaborating laboratories reported weekly identification of influenza viruses weekly morbidity reports were received both from the state and territorial epidemiologists and from sentinel family practice physicians nonsystematic reports of outbreaks and unusual illnesses were received throughout the year results during the influenza season influenza a h n and b viruses were identified in the united states with essentially equal frequency overall although both regional and temporal patterns of predominance shifted over the course of the season throughout the season increases in the indices of influenza morbidity in regions where influenza a h n predominated were similar to increases in regions where influenza b predominated only of identified viruses were influenza a h n but isolations of this subtype increased as the season waned and it subsequently predominated during the season during the season outbreaks in nursing homes were reported in association with influenza b and a h n but not influenza a h n interpretation the alternating temporal and geographic predominance of influenza strains a h n and b during the season emphasizes the importance of continual attention to regional viral strain surveillance since amantadine is effective only for treatment and prophylaxis of influenza a actions taken weekly interim analyses of surveillance data produced throughout the season allow physicians and public health officials to make informed choices regarding appropriate use of amantadine cdc s annual surveillance allows the observed viral variants to be assessed as candidates for inclusion as components in vaccines used in subsequent influenza seasons authors louisa e chapman m d m s p h epidemiology activity office of the director division of viral and rickettsial diseases national center for infectious diseases margaret a tipple m d division of quarantine national center for prevention services cdc suzanne gaventa folger m p h health investigations branch division of health studies agency for toxic substances and disease registry maurice harmon ph d connaught hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april laboratories pasteur mirieux company swiftwater pennsylvania alan p kendal ph d european regional office world health organization copenhagen denmark nancy j cox ph d influenza branch division of viral and rickettsial diseases national center for infectious diseases lawrence b schonberger m d m p h epidemiology activity office of the director division of viral and rickettsial diseases national center for infectious diseases cdc reference cdc cdc surveillance summaries march mmwr no ss hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april clinical research news clinical research news for arizona physicians vol no april tucson arizona published monthly by the office of public affairs at the university of arizona health sciences center copyright the university of arizona high tech assisted reproductive technologies following the birth of the first in vitro fertilization embryo transfer ivf et baby in a host of assisted reproductive technologies have been developed that include ivf et gamete intrafallopian tube transfer gift embryo cryopreservation freezing and gamete micromanipulation together these technologies are referred to as the high tech assisted reproductive technology art procedures ovulation induction sperm insemination and surgery for tubal disease and or pathology still are the mainstays of the therapies available for infertility management however when these fail it almost always is appropriate to proceed with one of the art procedures therefore in addition to a comprehensive basic and general infertility service at the university of arizona center for reproductive endocrinology and infertility there is a program of assisted reproduction that specializes in art procedures this program serves as a tertiary provider for those patients in the state of arizona whose infertility problems cannot be resolved by the traditional therapies the following article on back describes the art procedures available in our center clarifies appropriate applications for each and considers the realistic expectations for their success procedures included are o in vitro o fertilization embryo transfer ivf et gamete intrafallopian tube transfer o gift cryopreservation of human embryos and gamete micromanipulation this article also considers ongoing research in our program that is directed towards improved success of these technologies hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april future areas of research in addition to ongoing research that is directed exclusively toward the management of infertile couples we are developing the technology to assist couples who are at risk for producing embryos with a serious hereditary disease this technology involves biopsying the preimplantation human embryo and then subjecting the biopsied cells to genetic analysis using either dna amplification or fluorescent in situ hybridization there are recent reports of the successful application of dna amplification by other centers for example for diagnosis of the genes for cystic fibrosis and hemophilia we hope to apply and further focus fluorescent in situ hybridization technology for probing the x chromosome the identification of which will provide a scientific basis for counselling patients who exhibit sex linked disorders the considerable clinical application of such technology lies in the fact that it circumvents the need for prenatal diagnosis in addition to the possibility of a subsequent termination of affected fetuses in order to avoid the birth of affected children catherine racowsky ph d associate professor and director of research department of obstetrics and gynecology college of medicine university of arizona tucson arizona applications success rates and advances for the management of infertility the following are the art procedures available at the university of arizona center for reproductive endocrinology and infertility in vitro fertilization embryo transfer is the core art procedure of our assisted reproduction program this procedure involves retrieval of unfertilized eggs from the ovary their insemination in vitro in a dish and the culture of resultant embryos for or days before they are transferred to the patient s uterus all cultures are maintained in an incubator under strictly controlled atmospheric and temperature conditions before being processed for use in insemination semen samples are evaluated in our andrology laboratory using both subjective light microscopy and computer hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april assisted semen analyses to ensure an adequate number of eggs with which to perform ivf et or indeed gift follicular development is typically stimulated with gonadotropins perganol metrodin gonadotropin releasing hormone gnrh factrel lutrepulse and or gnrh analogues lupron depo lupron synarel occasionally however ivf et is accomplished with eggs obtained in non stimulated cycles while some programs utilize laparoscopic egg retrieval in the operating room with the patient under general anesthesia we undertake the less costly approach of ultrasound guided retrieval in our infertility unit with the patient sedated couples who resort to ivf et exhibit such pathologies as tubal deficiencies ovulatory dysfunction endometriosis and or mild forms of male factor infertility according to the united states ivf registry the overall success rate for ivf et nationwide has stabilized at about percent per cycle results from our program involving patients who have undergone ivf et cycles reflect a comparable success rate nevertheless the overall incidence of success with this procedure is disconcertingly low and emphasizes the need to address those physiological factors that limit achievement of a higher percentage of pregnancies well recognized predictors of outcome include patient age response to exogenous ovarian stimulation quality of sperm and number of repeated ivf et cycle attempts however among these age is the single most significant determinant of conception therefore it is critical that such patients are referred to an assisted reproduction program at the earliest opportunity following failure of traditional therapies the underlying basis for the negative effect of age on fertility has not been clearly delineated beyond recognition that the number of eggs available for retrieval declines markedly with age fertilization rates significantly decrease in eggs retrieved from patients who are over years and provided the appropriate hormonal background is present age is unrelated to uterine competency to sustain pregnancy ongoing research in our center therefore is investigating physiological changes in the egg that may be impacted by age we have determined that more than percent of eggs that fail to fertilize in vitro are chromosomally abnormal and that a significant proportion of these abnormalities are accountable to patient age currently the only recourse for such patients is to use eggs obtained from a donor our program has initiated recruitment of volunteer egg donors to satisfy the needs of a list of recipients interested in this form of therapy gift this high tech art procedure is performed in the operating room usually with the use of a laparoscope and in contrast to ivf et involves introducing sperm and freshly retrieved eggs into the lumen of the fallopian tube an average of eggs tube under these circumstances fertilization occurs in vivo and if excess eggs are retrieved the remainder undergo ivf with subsequent options for embryo transfer in that cycle or freezing for transfer in a subsequent cycle this art procedure is applied to cases in hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april which there is at least one patent fallopian tube but the couple has such pathologies as ovulatory dysfunction endometriosis male factor infertility and or idiopathic infertility the data reported in the united states ivf registry for through indicate that the overall success rate with gift is higher than that obtained with the ivf et technique range of clinical pregnancies for gift is to percent and for ivf et to percent in view of this fact one might expect more patients to be treated with gift than ivf et however in our program we have taken into account three basic concerns which while substantially reducing the number of gift cycles performed benefit the patient these concerns are the increased costs associated with performing a procedure in the operating room the risks albeit minimal of undergoing general anesthesia and the considerable benefits to be accrued from obtaining direct information on the quality and fertilizability of the eggs and the developmental competency of resultant embryos the increased success with gift undoubtedly reflects the artificial environment provided by the laboratory in the ivf et procedure between january and december we have performed a total of gift cycles with an overall success rate of percent embryo cryopreservation or freezing is applied in our program when embryos result from residual gift eggs or from non transferred ivf embryos this procedure not only provides patients with a subsequent opportunity for success at much reduced costs but also circumvents the legal and ethical issues relating to disposal of supernumerary embryos therefore as stipulated by the american fertility society ethical guidelines for art programs from both a practical and an ethical standpoint all assisted reproduction programs should have the capability of cryopreserving human embrys gamete micromanipulation this art procedure which is still very new is applied to couples who are unaccepting of insemination with donor semen but who have severe male factor infertility less than million sperm ml in combination with fewer than perccent motile sperm and or less than percent sperm with normal morphology we are currently developing the procedure of sub zonal insertion szi which entails injecting sperm under the coating around the egg the barrier normally penetrated by the sperm through enzymatic digestion available data from szi programs world wide indicate that only to percent of szi cycles result in a pregnancy this statistic undoubtedly relates to limitations imposed by abnormalities inherent in the sperm therefore we are currently focusing on the development of improved techniques for the recognition and selection of sperm chosen for manipulation such efforts are unquestionably worthwhile in view of the fact that this technology offers the only realistic opportunity for severe male factor patients to establish conception catherine racowsky ph d hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april associate professor and director of research department of obstetrics and gynecology college of medicine end of part internet david stat com fax bitnet atw h asuacad fidonet amateur packet ax wb tpy wb tpy az usa na
sci.med	hicn medical news part cut here limits of azt s efficacy and now suggest using the drug either sequentially with other drugs or in a kind of aids treatment cocktail combining a number of drugs to fight the virus all at once treating people with azt alone doesn t happen in the real world anymore said dr mark jacobson of the university of california san francisco also with recent findings indicating that hiv replicates rapidly in the lymph nodes after infection physicians may begin pushing even harder for early treatment of hiv infected patients new infectious disease push american medical news vol no p the center for disease control will launch a worldwide network to track the spread of infectious diseases and detect drug resistant or new strains in time to help prevent their spread the network is expected to cost between million and million but is an essential part of the clinton administration s health reform plan according to the cdc and outside experts the plan will require the cdc to enhance surveillance of disease in the united states and establish about facilities across the world to track disease april nih plans to begin aids drug trials at earlier stage nature vol no p macilwain colin hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april the national institutes of health has announced it will start treating hiv positive patients as soon as possible after seroconversion resulting from recent findings that show hiv is active in the body in large numbers much earlier than was previously believed anthony fauci director of the u s national institute of allergy and infectious diseases niaid said we must address the question of how to treat people as early as we possibly can with drugs that are safe enough to give people for years and that will get around microbial resistance he said any delay would signify questions over safety and resistance rather than a lack of funds fauci who co authored one of the two papers published last week in nature rejects the argument by one of his co authors cecil fox that the new discovery indicates that billion spent on vaccine trials has been a waste of time and money because the trials were started too long after the patients were infected and were ended too quickly john tew of the medical college of virginia in richmond claims that the new evidence strongly backs the argument for early treatment of hiv infected patients aids activists welcomed the new information but said the scientific community has been slow to understand the significance of infection of the lymph tissue we ve known about this for five years but we re glad it is now in the public domain said jesse dobson of the california based project inform but peter duesberg who believes that aids is independent of hiv and is a result of drug abuse in the west said we are several paradoxes away from an explanation of aids even if these papers are right april risk of aids virus from doctors found to be minimal washington post p a the risk of hiv being transmitted from infected health care professionals to patients is minimal according to new research published in today s journal of the american medical association jama this finding supports previous conclusions by health experts that the chance of contracting hiv from a health care worker is remote three studies in the jama demonstrate that thousands of patients were treated by two hiv positive surgeons and dentists without becoming infected with the virus the studies were conducted by separate research teams in new hampshire maryland and florida each study started with an hiv positive doctor or dentist and tested all patients willing to participate the new hampshire study found that none of the patients who had undergone invasive procedures by an hiv positive orthopedic surgeon contracted hiv in maryland of patients operated on by a breast surgery specialist at johns hopkins hospital were found to be hiv negative similarly in florida of dental hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april patients who all had been treated by an hiv positive general dentist were tested and found to be negative for hiv the florida researchers led by gordon m dickinson of the university of miami school of medicine said this study indicates that the risk for transmission of hiv from a general dentist to his patients is minimal in a setting in which universal precautions are strictly observed related story philadelphia inquirer p a alternative medicine advocates divided over new nih research program aids treatment news no p gilden dave the new office of alternative medicine at the national institutes of health has raised questions about the nih s commitment to an effort that uses unorthodox or holistic therapeutic methods the oam is a small division of the nih with its budget only at million dollars compared to more than billion for the nih as a whole in addition the money for available research grants is even smaller about to total will be available this year for or grants kaiya montaocean of the center for natural and traditional medicine in washington d c says the oam is afraid to become involved in aids they have to look successful and there is no easy answer in aids she said there is also a common perception that the oam will focus on fields the nih establishment will find non threatening such as relaxation techniques and acupuncture when the oam called for an advisory committee conference of about people last year the aids community was largely missing from the meeting in addition activists general lack of contact with the office has added suspicion that the epidemic will be ignored jon greenberg of act up new york said the oam advisory panel is composed of practitioners without real research experience it will take them several years to accept the nature of research nevertheless dr leanna standish research director and aids investigator at the bastyr college of naturopathic medicine in seattle said here is a wonderful opportunity to fund aids research it s only fair to give the office time to gel but it s up to the public to insist that it s much much more than public relations herpesvirus decimates immune cell soldiers science news vol no p fackelmann kathy a scientists conducting test tube experiments have found that herpesvirus can attack the human immune system s natural killer cells this attack causes the killer cells to malfunction diminishing an important component in the immune system s fight against diseases also the herpesvirus may be a factor in immune diseases such as aids in paolo lusso s research found that herpesvirus attacks another white cell the cd t lymphocyte which is the primary target of hiv lusso also found that herpesvirus can hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april kill natural killer cells scientists previously knew that the natural killer cells of patients infected with hiv do not work correctly lusso s research represents the first time scientists have indicated that natural killer cells are vulnerable to any kind of viral attack according to anthony l komaroff a researcher with harvard medical school despite the test tube findings scientists are uncertain whether the same result occurs in the body lusso s team also found that herpesvirus produces the cd receptor molecule that provides access for hiv cd t lymphocytes express this surface receptor making them vulnerable to hiv s attack researchers concluded that herpesvirus cells can exacerbate the affects of hiv april aids and priorities in the global village to the editor journal of the american medical association vol no p gellert george and nordenberg dale f all health care workers are obligated and responsible for not only ensuring that politicians understand the dimensions of certain health problems but also to be committed to related policies write george gellert and dale f nordenberg of the orange county health care agency santa ana calif and the emory university school of public health in atlanta ga respectively dr berkley s editorial on why american doctors should care about the aids epidemic beyond the united states details several reasons for the concerted interest that all countries share in combating aids it should be noted that while aids leads in hastening global health interdependence it is not the only illness doing so diseases such as malaria and many respiratory and intestinal pathogens have similarly inhibited the economic development of most of humanity and acted to marginalize large populations berkley mentions the enormous social and economic impact that aids will have on many developing countries and the increased need for international assistance that will result berkley also cites the lack of political aggressiveness toward the aids epidemic in its first decade but now there is a new administration with a promise of substantial differences in approach to international health and development in general and hiv aids in particular vice president al gore proposes in his book earth in the balance a major environmental initiative that includes sustainable international development with programs to promote literacy improve child survival and disseminate contraceptive technology and access throughout the developing world if enacted this change in policy could drastically change the future of worldwide health aids and priorities in the global village in reply journal of the american hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april medical association vol no p berkley seth every nation should tackle hiv as early and aggressively as possible before the disease reaches an endemic state even at a cost of diverting less attention to some other illnesses writes seth berkley of the rockefeller foundation in new york n y in reply to a letter by drs gellert and nordenberg although it is true that diseases other than aids such as malaria and respiratory and intestinal illnesses have similarly inhibited economic development in developing countries and deserve much more attention than they are getting berkley disagrees with the contention that aids is receiving too much attention hiv differs from other diseases in most developing countries because it is continuing to spread for most endemic diseases the outcome of neglecting interventions for one year is another year of about the same level of needless disease and death but with aids and its increasing spread the cost of neglect not only in disease burden but financially is much greater interventions in the early part of a rampantly spreading epidemic like hiv are highly cost effective because each individual infection prevented significantly interrupts transmission berkley says he agrees with gellert and nordenberg about the gigantic social and economic effects of aids and about the need for political leadership but he concludes that not only is assertive political leadership needed in the united states for the aids epidemic but even more so in developing countries with high rates of hiv infection and where complacency about the epidemic has been the rule hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april aids hiv articles first hiv vaccine trial begins in hiv infected children h h s n e w s u s department of health and human services march first hiv vaccine therapy trial begins in hiv infected children the national institutes of health has opened the first trial of experimental hiv vaccines in children who are infected with the human immunodeficiency virus hiv the virus that causes aids the trial will compare the safety of three hiv experimental vaccines in children recruited from at least sites nationwide volunteers must be hiv infected but have no symptoms of hiv disease hhs secretary donna e shalala said this initial study can be seen as a hopeful milestone in our efforts to ameliorate the tragedy of hiv infected children who now face the certainty they will develop aids anthony s fauci m d director of the national institute of allergy and infectious diseases and of the nih office of aids research said the trial is the first step in finding out whether vaccines can help prevent or delay disease progression in children with hiv who are not yet sick if these vaccines prove to be safe more sophisticated questions about their therapeutic potential will be assessed in phase ii trials the centers for disease control and prevention estimates children in the united states have hiv by the end of the decade the world health organization projects million children will be infected worldwide the study will enroll children ages month to years old niaid which funds the aids clinical trials group network anticipates conducting the trial at nine actg sites around the country and three sites participating in the actg but funded by the national institute of child health and human development preliminary evidence from similar studies under way in infected adults shows that certain vaccines can boost existing hiv specific immune responses and hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april stimulate new ones it will be several years however before researchers know how these responses affect the clinical course of the disease the results from the pediatric trial known as actg will be examined closely for other reasons as well this trial will provide the first insight into how the immature immune system responds to candidate hiv vaccines said daniel hoth m d director of niaid s division of aids we need this information to design trials to test whether experimental vaccines can prevent hiv infection in children in the united states most hiv infected children live in poor inner city areas and more than percent are minorities mainly black or hispanic nearly all hiv infected children acquire the virus from their mothers during pregnancy or at birth an infected mother in the united states has more than a one in four chance of transmitting the virus to her baby as growing numbers of women of childbearing age become exposed to hiv through injection drug use or infected sexual partners researchers expect a corresponding increase in the numbers of infected children hiv disease progresses more rapidly in infants and children than in adults the most recent information suggests that percent of infants born with hiv develop a serious aids related infection by to years of age these infections include severe or frequent bouts of common bacterial illnesses of childhood that can result in seizures pneumonia diarrhea and other symptoms leading to nutritional problems and long hospital stays at least half of the children in the trial will be years of age or younger to enable comparison of the immune responses of the younger and older participants all volunteers must have well documented hiv infection but no symptoms of hiv disease other than swollen lymph glands or a mildly swollen liver or spleen they cannot have received any anti retroviral or immune regulating drugs within one month prior to their entry into the study study chair john s lambert m d of the university of rochester medical school and co chair samuel katz m d of duke university school of medicine will coordinate the trial assisted by james mcnamara m d medical officer in the pediatric medicine branch of niaid s division of aids we will compare the safety of the vaccines by closely monitoring the children for any side effects to see if one vaccine produces more swollen arms or fevers for example than another said dr mcnamara we ll also look at whether low or high doses of the vaccines stimulate immune responses or other significant laboratory or clinical effects he emphasized that the small study size precludes comparing these responses or effects among the three hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april products the trial will test two doses each of three experimental vaccines made from recombinant hiv proteins these so called subunit vaccines each genetically engineered to contain only a piece of the virus have so far proved well tolerated in ongoing trials in hiv infected adults one vaccine made by microgenesys inc of meriden conn contains gp a protein that gives rise to hiv s surface proteins plus alum adjuvant adjuvants boost specific immune responses to a vaccine presently alum is the only adjuvant used in human vaccines licensed by the food and drug administration both of the other vaccines one made by genentech inc of south san francisco and the other by biocine a joint venture of chiron and ciba geigy in emeryville calif contain the major hiv surface protein gp plus adjuvant the genentech vaccine contains alum while the biocine vaccine contains mf an experimental adjuvant that has proved safe and effective in other phase i vaccine trials in adults a low dose of each product will be tested first against a placebo in children twelve children will be assigned at random to be immunized with the experimental vaccine and three children will be given adjuvant alone considered the placebo neither the health care workers nor the children will be told what they receive if the low dose is well tolerated controlled testing of a higher dose of the experimental vaccine and adjuvant placebo in another group of children will begin each child will receive six immunizations one every four weeks for six months and be followed up for weeks after the last immunization for more information about the trial sites or eligibility for enrollment call the aids clinical trials information service trials a from a m to p m est weekdays the service has spanish speaking information specialists available information on niaid s pediatric hiv aids research is available from the office of communications at nih cdc and fda are agencies of the u s public health service in hhs for press inquiries only please call laurie k doepel at hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april new evidence that the hiv can cause disease independently news from the national institute of dental research there is new evidence that the human immunodeficiency virus can cause disease independently of its ability to suppress the immune system say scientists at the national institues of health they report that hiv itself not an opportunistic infection caused scaling skin conditions to develop in mice carrying the genes for hiv although the hiv genes were active in the mice they did not compromise the animals immunity the researchers found this led them to conclude that the hiv itself caused the skin disease our findings support a growing body of evidence that hiv can cause disease without affecting the immune system said lead author dr jeffrey kopp of the national institute of dental research nidr dr kopp and his colleagues described their study in the march issue of aids research and human retroviruses developing animal models of hiv infection has been difficult since most animals including mice cannot be infected by the virus to bypass this problem scientists have developed hiv transgenic mice which carry genes for hiv as well as their own genetic material nidr scientists created the transgenic mice by injecting hiv genes into mouse eggs and then implanting the eggs into female mice the resulting litters contained both normal and transgenic animals institute scientists had created mice that carried a complete copy of hiv genetic material in l those mice however became sick and died too soon after birth to study in depth in the present study the scientists used an incomplete copy of hiv which allowed the animals to live longer some of the transgenic animals developed scaling wart like tumors on their necks and backs other transgenic mice developed thickened crusting skin lesions that covered most of their bodies resembling psoriasis in humans no skin lesions developed in their normal non transgenic littermates studies of tissue taken from the wart like skin tumors showed that they were a type of noncancerous tumor called papilloma although the papillomavirus can cause these skin lesions laboratory tests showed no sign of that virus in the animals tissue samples taken from the sick mice throughout the study revealed the presence of a protein producing molecule made by the hiv genetic material hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april evidence of hiv protein production proved that the viral genes were turned on or active said dr kopp the scientists found no evidence however of compromised immunity in the mice no increase in their white blood cell count and no signs of common infections the fact that hiv genes were active but the animals immune systems were not suppressed confirms that the virus itself was causing the skin lesions dr kopp said further proof of hiv gene involvement came from a test in which the scientists exposed the transgenic animals to ultraviolet light the light increased hiv genetic activity causing papillomas to develop on formerly healthy skin papilloma formation in response to increased hiv genetic activity proved the genes were responsible for the skin condition the scientists said no lesions appeared on normal mice exposed to the uv light the transgenic mice used in this study were developed at nidr by dr peter dickie who is now with the national institute of allergy and infectious diseases collaborating on the study with dr kopp were mr charles wohlenberg drs nickolas dorfman joseph bryant abner notkins and paul klotman all of nidr dr stephen katz of the national cancer institute and dr james rooney formerly with nidr and now with burroughs wellcome hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april clinical consultation telephone service for aids h h s n e w s u s department of health and human services march hhs secretary donna e shalala today announced the first nationwide clinical consultation telephone service for doctors and other health care professionals who have questions about providing care to people with hiv infection or aids the toll free national hiv telephone consulting service is staffed by a physician a nurse practitioner and a pharmacist it provides information on drugs clinical trials and the latest treatment methods the service is funded by the health resources and services administration and operates out of san francisco general hospital secretary shalala said one goal of this project is to share expertise so patients get the best care a second goal is to get more primary health care providers involved in care for people with hiv or aids which reduces treatment cost by allowing patients to remain with their medical providers and community social support networks currently many providers refer patients with hiv or aids to specialists or other providers who have more experience secretary shalala said this clinical expertise should be especially helpful for physicians and providers who treat people with hiv or aids in communities and clinical sites where hiv expertise is not readily available the telephone number for health care professionals is and it is accessible from a m to p m est a m to p m pst monday through friday during these times consultants will try to answer questions immediately or within an hour at other times physicians and health care providers can leave an electronic message and questions will be answered as quickly as possible health care professionals may call the service to ask any question related to providing hiv care including the latest hiv aids drug treatment information clinical trials information subspecialty case referral literature searches and other information the service is designed for health care professionals rather than patients families or others who have alternate sources of information or materials when a health care professional calls the new service the call is taken by either a clinical pharmacist primary care physician or family nurse practitioner all staff members have extensive experience in outpatient and inpatient primary care for people with hiv related diseases the consultant asks for patient specific information including cd cell count current medications sex age and the patient s hiv history this national service has grown out of a month local effort that hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april responded to nearly calls from health care providers in northern california the initial project was funded by hrsa s bureau of health professions through its community provider aids training cpat project and by the american academy of family physicians when providers expand their knowledge they also improve the quality of care they are able to provide to their patients said hrsa administrator robert g harmon m d m p h this project will be a great resource for health care professionals and the hiv aids patients they serve this service has opened a new means of communication between health care professionals and experts on hiv care management said hrsa s associate administrator for aids and director of the bureau of health resources development g stephen bowen m d m p h providers who treat people with hiv or aids have access to the latest information on new drugs treatment methods and therapies for people with hiv or aids hrsa is one of eight u s public health service agencies within hhs aids hotline numbers for consumers cdc national aids hotline aids for information in spanish sida aids clinical trials english spanish trials a hicnet medical newsletter page cut here this is the last part internet david stat com fax bitnet atw h asuacad fidonet amateur packet ax wb tpy wb tpy az usa na
sci.med	re hismanal et al side effects in article apr spdcc com dyer spdcc com steve dyer writes in article apr lrc edu kjiv lrc edu writes can someone tell me whether or not any of the following medications has been linked to rapid excessive weight gain and or a distorted sense of taste or smell hismanal azmacort a topical steroid to prevent asthma vancenase hismanal astemizole is most definitely linked to weight gain it really is peculiar that some antihistamines have this effect and even more so an antihistamine like astemizole which purportedly doesn t cross the blood brain barrier and so tends not to cause drowsiness it also gave me lots of problems with joint and muscle pain seemed to trigger arthritis like problems sue steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima harvard rayssd linus m c spdcc dyer
sci.med	hicn medical newsletter part cut here volume number april health info com network medical newsletter editor david dodell d m d north nd street suite scottsdale arizona usa telephone fax compilation copyright by david dodell d m d all rights reserved license is hereby granted to republish on electronic media for which no fees are charged so long as the text of this copyright notice and license are attached intact to any and all republished portion or portions the health info com network newsletter is distributed biweekly articles on a medical nature are welcomed if you have an article please contact the editor for information on how to submit it if you are interested in joining the automated distribution system please contact the editor e mail address editor internet david stat com fidonet bitnet atw h asuacad listserv mednews asuacad bitnet or internet mednews asuvm inre asu edu anonymous ftp vm nodak edu notification list hicn notify request stat com fax delivery contact editor for information t a b l e o f c o n t e n t s comments news from the editor ocr scanner news centers for disease control and prevention mmwr april emerging infectious diseases outbreak of e coli infections from hamburgers use of smokeless tobacoo among adults gonorrhea impact of adult safety belt use on children less than years age publication of cdc surveillance summaries clinical research news high tech assisted reproductive technologies articles low levels airborne particles linked to serious asthma attacks nih consensus development conference on melanoma national cancer insitute designated cancer centers general announcments uci medical education software repository aids news summaries aids daily summary april to april aids hiv articles first hiv vaccine trial begins in hiv infected children new evidence that the hiv can cause disease independently clinical consultation telephone service for aids hicnet medical newsletter page i volume number april comments news from the editor i would like to continue to thank everyone who has sent in a donation for the mednews ocr scanner fund we have reached our goal a hewlett packard scanjet iip was purchased this week thank you to the following individuals whose contributions i just received john sorenson carol sigelman carla moore barbara moose judith schrier again thank you to all who gave i have been using wordscan plus for the past couple of weeks and would like to review the product wordscan plus is a product of calera recognition systems it runs under windows and supports that accufont technology of the hewlett packard scanners when initially bringing up the software it lets you select several options text graphics input source ie scanner fax file disk file automatic versus manual decomposition of the scanned image i like manual decomposition since the software then lets me select which parts of the document i would like scanned and in what order once an image is scanned you can bring up the pop up image verification the software gives you two errors at this point blue which are words that were converted reliability but do not match anything in the built in dictionary yellow shade which are words that wordscan plus doesn t think it converted correctly at all i have found that the software should give itself more credit it is usually correct instead of wrong if a word is shaded blue you can add it to your personal dictionary the only problem is the personal dictionary will only handle about words i find this to be very limited considering how many medical terms are not in a normal dictionary after a document is converted you can save it in a multitude of word processor formats also any images that were captured can be stored in a seperate tiff or pcx file format i was extremely impressed on the percent accuracy for fax files i use hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april an intel satisfaxtion card which stores incoming faxs in a pcx dcx format while most of my faxes were received in standard mode x dpi the accuracy of wordscan plus was excellent overall a very impressive product the only fault i could find is the limitations of the size of the user dictionary specialized words is just too small if anyone has any specific questions please do not hesitate to send me email hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april centers for disease control and prevention mmwr emerging infectious diseases source mmwr date apr introduction despite predictions earlier this century that infectious diseases would soon be eliminated as a public health problem infectious diseases remain the major cause of death worldwide and a leading cause of illness and death in the united states since the early s the u s public health system has been challenged by a myriad of newly identified pathogens and syndromes e g escherichia coli o h hepatitis c virus human immunodeficiency virus legionnaires disease lyme disease and toxic shock syndrome the incidences of many diseases widely presumed to be under control such as cholera malaria and tuberculosis tb have increased in many areas furthermore control and prevention of infectious diseases are undermined by drug resistance in conditions such as gonorrhea malaria pneumococcal disease salmonellosis shigellosis tb and staphylococcal infections emerging infections place a disproportionate burden on immunocompromised persons those in institutional settings e g hospitals and child day care centers and minority and underserved populations the substantial economic burden of emerging infections on the u s health care system could be reduced by more effective surveillance systems and targeted control and prevention programs this issue of mmwr introduces a new series emerging infectious diseases future articles will address these diseases as well as surveillance control and prevention efforts by health care providers and public health officials this first article updates the ongoing investigation of an outbreak of e coli o h in the western united states references burnet m natural history of infectious disease cambridge england cambridge university press kunin cm resistance to antimicrobial drugs a worldwide calamity ann intern med lederberg j shope re oaks sc jr eds emerging infections microbial threats to health in the united states washington dc national academy press hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april cdc preliminary report foodborne outbreak of escherichia coli o h infections from hamburgers western united states mmwr hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april update multistate outbreak of escherichia coli o h infections from hamburgers western united states source mmwr date apr from november through february more than laboratory confirmed infections with e coli o h and four associated deaths occurred in four states washington idaho california and nevada this report summarizes the findings from an ongoing investigation that identified a multistate outbreak resulting from consumption of hamburgers from one restaurant chain washington on january a physician reported to the washington department of health a cluster of children with hemolytic uremic syndrome hus and an increase in emergency room visits for bloody diarrhea during january a case control study comparing of the first cases of bloody diarrhea or postdiarrheal hus identified with age and neighborhood matched controls implicated eating at chain a restaurants during the week before symptom onset matched odds ratio or undefined lower confidence limit on january a multistate recall of unused hamburger patties from chain a restaurants was initiated as a result of publicity and case finding efforts during january february patients with bloody diarrhea or hus were reported to the state health department a total of persons had illnesses meeting the case definition of culture confirmed e coli o h infection or postdiarrheal hus figure of the persons had close contact with a person with confirmed e coli o h infection during the week preceding onset of symptoms of the remaining persons reported eating in a chain a restaurant during the days preceding onset of symptoms of the patients who recalled what they ate in a chain a restaurant reported eating a regular sized hamburger patty onsets of illness peaked from january through january of the casepatients were hospitalized developed hus and three died the median age of patients was years range years idaho following the outbreak report from washington the division of health idaho department of health and welfare identified persons with culture confirmed e coli o h infection with illness onset dates from december through february figure a four persons were hospitalized one developed hus during the week preceding illness onset had eaten at a chain a restaurant california in late december the san diego county department of health services was notified of a child with e coli o h infection who subsequently died active surveillance and record review then identified eight other persons with e coli o h infections or hus from mid november through mid january four of the nine reportedly had recently eaten at a chain a restaurant and hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april four at a chain b restaurant in san diego after the washington outbreak was reported reviews of medical records at five hospitals revealed an overall increase in visits or admissions for diarrhea during december and january compared with the same period year earlier a case was defined as postdiarrheal hus bloody diarrhea that was culture negative or not cultured or any diarrheal illness in which stool culture yielded e coli o h with onset from november through january illnesses of patients met the case definition figure b the outbreak strain was identified in stool specimens of six patients fourteen persons were hospitalized seven developed hus and one child died the median age of case patients was years range years a case control study of the first case patients identified and age and sex matched community controls implicated eating at a chain a restaurant in san diego matched or confidence interval ci a study comparing case patients who ate at chain a restaurants with well meal companions implicated regular sized hamburger patties matched or undefined lower confidence limit chain b was not statistically associated with illness nevada on january after receiving a report of a child with hus who had eaten at a local chain a restaurant the clark county las vegas health district issued a press release requesting that persons with recent bloody diarrhea contact the health department a case was defined as postdiarrheal hus bloody diarrhea that was culture negative or not cultured or any diarrheal illness with a stool culture yielding the washington strain of e coli o h with onset from december through february because local laboratories were not using sorbitol macconkey smac medium to screen stools for e coli o h this organism was not identified in any patient after smac medium was distributed the outbreak strain was detected in the stool of one patient days after illness onset of persons whose illnesses met the case definition figure c nine were hospitalized three developed hus the median age was years range years analysis of the first patients identified and age and sex matched community controls implicated eating at a chain a restaurant during the week preceding illness onset matched or undefined lower confidence limit a case control study using well meal companions of case patients also implicated eating hamburgers at chain a matched or ci other investigation findings during the outbreak chain a restaurants in washington linked with cases primarily were serving regular sized hamburger patties produced on november some of the same meat was used in jumbo patties produced on november the outbreak strain of e coli o h was isolated from lots of patties produced on those two dates these lots had been distributed to restaurants in all states where illness occurred approximately of the implicated patties were recovered by the recall a meat traceback by a cdc team identified five slaughter plants in the united states and one in canada as the likely sources of carcasses used in the hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april contaminated lots of meat and identified potential control points for reducing the likelihood of contamination the animals slaughtered in domestic slaughter plants were traced to farms and auctions in six western states no one slaughter plant or farm was identified as the source further investigation of cases related to secondary transmission in families and child day care settings is ongoing reported by m davis dvm c osaki msph seattle king county dept of public health d gordon ms mw hinds md snohomish health district everett k mottram c winegar mph tacoma pierce county health dept ed avner md pi tarr md dept of pediatrics d jardine md depts of anesthesiology and pediatrics univ of washington school of medicine and children s hospital and medical center seattle m goldoft md b bartleson mph j lewis jm kobayashi md state epidemiologist washington dept of health g billman md j bradley md children s hospital san diego s hunt p tanner res m ginsberg md san diego county dept of health svcs l barrett dvm sb werner md gw rutherford iii md state epidemiologist california dept of health svcs rw jue central district health dept boise h root southwest district health dept caldwell d brothers ma rl chehey ms rh hudson phd div of health idaho state public health laboratory fr dixon md state epidemiologist div of health idaho dept of health and welfare dj maxson environmental epidemiology program l empey pa o ravenholt md vh ueckart dvm clark county health district las vegas a disalvo md nevada state public health laboratory ds kwalick md r salcido mph d brus dvm state epidemiologist div of health nevada state dept of human resources center for food safety and applied nutrition food and drug administration food safety inspection svc animal and plant health inspection svc us dept of agriculture div of field epidemiology epidemiology program office enteric diseases br div of bacterial and mycotic diseases national center for infectious diseases cdc editorial note e coli o h is a pathogenic gram negative bacterium first identified as a cause of illness in during an outbreak of severe bloody diarrhea traced to contaminated hamburgers this pathogen has since emerged as an important cause of both bloody diarrhea and hus the most common cause of acute renal failure in children outbreak investigations have linked most cases with the consumption of undercooked ground beef although other food vehicles including roast beef raw milk and apple cider also have been implicated preliminary data from a cdc year nationwide multicenter study revealed that when stools were routinely cultured for e coli o h that organism was isolated more frequently than shigella in four of participating hospitals and was isolated from of all bloody stools a higher rate than for any other pathogen infection with e coli o h often is not recognized because most clinical laboratories do not routinely culture stools for this organism on hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april smac medium and many clinicians are unaware of the spectrum of illnesses associated with infection the usual clinical manifestations are diarrhea often bloody and abdominal cramps fever is infrequent younger age groups and the elderly are at highest risk for clinical manifestations and complications illness usually resolves after days but of patients develop hus which is characterized by hemolytic anemia thrombocytopenia renal failure and a death rate of this report illustrates the difficulties in recognizing community outbreaks of e coli o h in the absence of routine surveillance despite the magnitude of this outbreak the problem may not have been recognized in three states if the epidemiologic link had not been established in washington clinical laboratories should routinely culture stool specimens from persons with bloody diarrhea or hus for e coli o h using smac agar when infections with e coli o h are identified they should be reported to local health departments for further evaluation and if necessary public health action to prevent further cases e coli o h lives in the intestines of healthy cattle and can contaminate meat during slaughter cdc is collaborating with the u s department of agriculture s food safety inspection service to identify critical control points in processing as a component of a program to reduce the likelihood of pathogens such as e coli o h entering the meat supply because slaughtering practices can result in contamination of raw meat with pathogens and because the process of grinding beef may transfer pathogens from the surface of the meat to the interior ground beef is likely to be internally contaminated the optimal food protection practice is to cook ground beef thoroughly until the interior is no longer pink and the juices are clear in this outbreak undercooking of hamburger patties likely played an important role the food and drug administration fda has issued interim recommendations to increase the internal temperature for cooked hamburgers to f c fda personal communication regulatory actions stimulated by the outbreak described in this report and the recovery of thousands of contaminated patties before they could be consumed emphasize the value of rapid public health investigations of outbreaks the public health impact and increasing frequency of isolation of this pathogen underscore the need for improved surveillance for infections caused by e coli o h and for hus to better define the epidemiology of e coli o h references cdc preliminary report foodborne outbreak of escherichia coli o h infections from hamburgers western united states mmwr riley lw remis rs helgerson sd et al hemorrhagic colitis associated with a rare escherichia coli serotype n engl j med hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april griffin pm tauxe rv the epidemiology of infections caused by escherichia coli o h other enterohemorrhagic e coli and the associated hemolytic uremic syndrome epidemiol rev griffin pm ostroff sm tauxe rv et al illnesses associated with escherichia coli o h infections a broad clinical spectrum ann intern med march sb ratnam s latex agglutination test hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april use of smokeless tobacco among adults united states source mmwr date apr consumption of moist snuff and other smokeless tobacco products in the united states almost tripled from through long term use of smokeless tobacco is associated with nicotine addiction and increased risk of oral cancer the incidence of which could increase if young persons who currently use smokeless tobacco continue to use these products frequently to monitor trends in the prevalence of use of smokeless tobacco products cdc s national health interview survey health promotion and disease prevention supplement nhis hpdp collected information on snuff and chewing tobacco use and smoking from a representative sample of the u s civilian noninstitutionalized population aged greater than or equal to years this report summarizes findings from this survey the nhis hpdp supplement asked have you used snuff at least times in your entire life and do you use snuff now similar questions were asked about chewing tobacco use and cigarette smoking current users of smokeless tobacco were defined as those who reported snuff or chewing tobacco use at least times and who reported using snuff or chewing tobacco at the time of the interview former users were defined as those who reported having used snuff or chewing tobacco at least times and not using either at the time of the interview ever users of smokeless tobacco included current and former users current smokers were defined as those who reported smoking at least cigarettes and who were currently smoking and former smokers as those who reported having smoked at least cigarettes and who were not smoking now ever smokers included current and former smokers data on smokeless tobacco use were available for persons aged greater than or equal to years and were adjusted for nonresponse and weighted to provide national estimates confidence intervals cis were calculated by using standard errors generated by the software for survey data analysis sudaan in an estimated million u s adults were current users of smokeless tobacco including million men and women for all categories of comparison the prevalence of smokeless tobacco use was substantially higher among men for men the prevalence of use was highest among those aged years table for women the prevalence was highest among those aged greater than or equal to years the prevalence of smokeless tobacco use among men was highest among american indians alaskan natives and whites the prevalence among women was highest among american indians alaskan natives and blacks among both men and women prevalence of smokeless tobacco use declined with increasing education prevalence was substantially higher among residents of the southern united states and in rural areas although the prevalence of smokeless tobacco use was higher among hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april men and women below the poverty level this difference was significant only for women p less than table among men the prevalence of current use of snuff was highest among those aged years but varied considerably by age the prevalence of use of chewing tobacco was more evenly distributed by age group table although women rarely used smokeless tobacco the prevalence of snuff use was highest among those aged greater than or equal to years an estimated million ci adults reported being former smokeless tobacco users among ever users the proportion who were former smokeless tobacco users was ci among persons aged years the proportion of former users was lower among snuff users ci than among chewing tobacco users ci among persons aged years the proportion of former users was similar for snuff ci and chewing tobacco ci among current users of smokeless tobacco ci currently smoked ci formerly smoked and ci never smoked in comparison among current smokers ci were current users of smokeless tobacco daily use of smokeless tobacco was more common among snuff users ci than among chewing tobacco users ci reported by office on smoking and health national center for chronic disease prevention and health promotion div of health interview statistics national center for health statistics cdc editorial note the findings in this report indicate that the use of smokeless tobacco was highest among young males adolescent and young adult males in particular are the target of marketing strategies by tobacco companies that link smokeless tobacco with athletic performance and virility use of oral snuff has risen markedly among professional baseball players encouraging this behavior among adolescent and young adult males and increasing their risk for nicotine addiction oral cancer and other mouth disorders differences in the prevalence of smokeless tobacco use among racial ethnic groups may be influenced by differences in educational levels and socioeconomic status as well as social and cultural phenomena that require further explanation for example targeted marketing practices may play a role in maintaining or increasing prevalence among some groups and affecting the differential initiation of smokeless tobacco use by young persons in this report one concern is that nearly one fourth of current smokeless tobacco users also smoke cigarettes in the nhis hpdp the prevalence of cigarette smoking was higher among former smokeless tobacco users than among current and never smokeless tobacco users in a previous study among college students of current smokeless tobacco users smoked hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april occasionally in addition approximately of adults who formerly smoked reported substituting other tobacco products for cigarettes in an effort to stop smoking health care providers should recognize the potential health implications of concurrent smokeless tobacco and cigarette use the national health objectives for the year have established special population target groups for the reduction of the prevalence of smokeless tobacco use including males aged years to no more than by the year objective and american indian alaskan native youth to no more than by the year objective a strategies to lower the prevalence of smokeless tobacco use include continued monitoring of smokeless tobacco use integrating smoking and smokeless tobacco control efforts enforcing laws that restrict minors access to tobacco making excise taxes commensurate with those on cigarettes encouraging health care providers to routinely provide cessation advice and follow up providing school based prevention and cessation interventions and adopting policies that prohibit tobacco use on school property and at school sponsored events references office of evaluations and inspections spit tobacco and youth washington dc us department of health and human services office of the inspector general dhhs publication no oei national institutes of health the health consequences of using smokeless tobacco a report of the advisory committee to the surgeon general bethesda maryland us department of health and human services public health service dhhs publication no nih shah bv software for survey data analysis sudaan version software documentation research triangle park north carolina research triangle institute connolly gn orleans ct blum a snuffing tobacco out of sport am j public health national cancer institute smokeless tobacco or health an international perspective bethesda maryland us department of health and human services public health service national institutes of health dhhs publication no nih foreyt jp jackson as squires wg hartung gh murray td gotto am psychological profile of college students who use smokeless tobacco addict behav glover ed laflin m edwards sw age of initiation and switching patterns hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april between smokeless tobacco and cigarettes among college students in the united states am j public health cdc tobacco use in methods and tabulations from adult use of tobacco survey rockville maryland us department of health and human services public health service cdc dhhs publication no om public health service healthy people national health promotion and disease prevention objectives washington dc us department of health and human services public health service dhhs publication no phs end of part internet david stat com fax bitnet atw h asuacad fidonet amateur packet ax wb tpy wb tpy az usa na
sci.med	hicn medical news part cut here university of arizona tucson arizona suggested reading tan sl royston p campbell s jacobs hs betts j mason b edwards rg cumulative conception and livebirth rates after in vitro fertilization lancet for further information call physicians resource line in tucson hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april articles low levels of airborne particles linked to serious asthma attacks american lung association a new study published by the american lung association has shown that surprisingly low concentrations of airborne particles can send people with asthma rushing to emergency rooms for treatment the seattle based study showed that roughly one in eight emergency visits for asthma in that city was linked to exposure to particulate air pollution the actual exposure levels recorded in the study were far below those deemed unsafe under federal air quality laws people with asthma have inflamed airways and airborne particles tend to exacerbate that inflammation said joel schwartz ph d of the environmental protection agency who was the lead author of the study when people are on the threshold of having a serious asthma attack particles can push them over the edge the seattle study correlated months of asthma emergency room visits with daily levels of pm or particulate matter with an aerodynamic diameter of microns or less these finer particles are considered hazardous because they are small enough penetrate into the lung cities are considered out of compliance with clean air laws if the hour average concentration of pm exceeds micrograms per cubic millimeter of air in seattle however a link between fine particles and asthma was found at levels as low as micrograms the authors concluded that for every microgram increase in the four day average of pm the odds of someone with asthma needing emergency treatment increased by percent the findings were published in the april american review of respiratory disease an official journal of the american thoracic society the lung association s medical section the study is the latest in a series of recent reports to suggest that particulate matter is a greatly under appreciated health threat a study by dr schwartz and douglas dockery ph d of harvard found that particles may be causing roughly premature deaths each year in the united states other studies have linked particulate matter to increased respiratory symptoms and bronchitis in children government officials and the media are still very focused on ozone says dr schwartz but more and more research is showing that particles are bad actors as well one problem in setting standards for particulate air pollution is that pmio is difficult to study unlike other regulated pollutants such as ozone and carbon monoxide particulate matter is a complex and varying mixture of substances including carbon hydrocarbons dust and hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april acid aerosols researchers can t put people in exposure chambers to study the effects of particulate air pollution says dr schwartz we have no way of duplicating the typical urban mix of particles consequently most of what is known about particulates has been learned through population based research like the seattle study given that the epa s current priority is to review the ozone and sulfur dioxide standards the agency is unlikely to reexamine the pm standard any time soon until changes are made there appears to be little people with asthma can do to protect themselves from airborne particles in some areas you can get reports on air quality but the reports only cover the pollutant that is closest to violating its standard and that s rarely particulate matter says dr schwartz however pm doesn t have to be near its violation range to be unhealthy hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april nih consensus development conference on melanoma the national institutes of health consensus development conference on diagnosis and treatment of early melanoma brought together experts in dermatology pathology epidemiology public education surveillance techniques and potential new technologies as well as other health care professionals and the public to address the clinical and histological characteristics of early melanoma the appropriate diagnosis management and followup of patients with early melanoma the role of dysplastic nevi and their significance and the role of education and screening in preventing melanoma morbidity and mortality following days of presentations by experts and discussion by the audience a consensus panel weighed the scientific evidence and prepared their consensus statement among their findings the panel recommended that melanoma in situ is a distinct entity effectively treated surgically with centimeter margins thin invasive melanoma less than millimeter thick has the potential for long term survival in more than percent of patients after surgical excision with a centimeter margin elective lymph node dissections and extensive staging evaluations are not recommended in early melanoma patients with early melanoma are at low risk for relapse but may be at high risk for development of subsequent melanomas and should be followed closely some family members of patients with melanoma are at increased risk for melanoma and should be enrolled in surveillance programs and education and screening programs have the potential to decrease morbidity and mortality from melanoma a copy of the full text of the consensus panel s statement is available by calling the nih office of medical applications of research at or by writing to office of medical applications of research national institutes of health federal building room bethesda md hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april nci designated cancer centers the cancer centers program is comprised of nci designated cancer centers actively engaged in multidisciplinary research efforts to reduce cancer incidence morbidity and mortality within the program there are four types of cancer centers basic science cancer centers which engage primarily in basic cancer research clinical cancer centers which focus on clinical research comprehensive cancer centers which emphasize a multidisciplinary approach to cancer research patient care and community outreach and consortium cancer centers which specialize in cancer prevention and control research although some cancer centers existed in the late s and the s it was the national cancer act of that authorized the establishment of new cancer centers as well as continuing support for existing ones the passage of the act also dramatically transformed the centers structure and broadened the scope of their mission to include all aspects of basic clinical and cancer control research over the next two decades the centers program grew progressively in there were comprehensive cancer centers in the nation today there are of these institutions all of which meet specific nci criteria for comprehensive status to attain recognition from the nci as a comprehensive cancer center an institution must pass rigorous peer review under guidelines newly established in the eight criteria for comprehensiveness include the requirement that a center have a strong core of basic laboratory research in several scientific fields such as biology and molecular genetics a strong program of clinical research and an ability to transfer research findings into clinical practice moreover five of the criteria for comprehensive status go significantly beyond that required for attaining a cancer center support grant also referred to as a p or core grant the mechanism of choice for supporting the infrastructure of a cancer center s operations these criteria encompass strong participation in nci designated high priority clinical trials significant levels of cancer prevention and control research and important outreach and educational activities all of which are funded by a variety of sources the other types of cancer centers also have special characteristics and capabilities for organizing new programs of research that can exploit important new findings or address timely research questions hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april of the nci designated cancer centers are of the basic science type these centers engage almost entirely in basic research although some centers engage in collaborative research with outside clinical research investigators and in cooperative projects with industry to generate medical applications from new discoveries in the laboratory clinical cancer centers in contrast focus on both basic research and clinical research within the same institutional framework and frequently incorporate nearby affiliated clinical research institutions into their overall research programs there are such centers today finally consortium cancer centers of which there is one are uniquely structured and concentrate on clinical research and cancer prevention and control research these centers interface with state and local public health departments for the purpose of achieving the transfer of effective prevention and control techniques from their research findings to those institutions responsible for implementing population wide public health programs consortium centers also are heavily engaged in collaborations with institutions that conduct clinical trial research and coordinate community hospitals within a network of cooperating institutions in clinical trials together the nci designated cancer centers continue to work toward creating new and innovative approaches to cancer research and through interdisciplinary efforts to effectively move this research from the laboratory into clinical trials and into clinical practice comprehensive cancer centers internet addresses are given where available university of alabama at birmingham comprehensive cancer center basic health sciences building room university boulevard birmingham alabama university of arizona cancer center north campbell avenue tucson arizona internet syd azcc arizona edu jonsson comprehensive cancer center university of california at los angeles medical plaza los angeles california hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april internet rick jccc medsch ucla edu kenneth t norris jr comprehensive cancer center university of southern california eastlake avenue los angeles california yale university comprehensive cancer center cedar street new haven connecticut lombardi cancer research center georgetown university medical center reservoir road n w washington d c sylvester comprehensive cancer center university of miami medical school northwest th avenue miami florida internet hlam mednet med miami edu johns hopkins oncology center north wolfe street baltimore maryland dana farber cancer institute binney street boston massachusetts internet kristie stevenson macmailgw dfci harvard edu meyer l prentis comprehensive cancer center of metropolitan detroit east warren avenue detroit michigan internet cummings oncvx dnet rocdec roc wayne edu university of michigan cancer center hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april simpson drive ann arbor michigan bitnet kallie bila michels um cc umich edu mayo comprehensive cancer center first street southwest rochester minnesota norris cotton cancer center dartmouth hitchcock medical center one medical center drive lebanon new hampshire bitnet edward bresnick dartmouth edu roswell park cancer institute elm and carlton streets buffalo new york columbia university comprehensive cancer center college of physicians and surgeons west th street new york new york internet janie cuccfa ccc columbia edu memorial sloan kettering cancer center york avenue new york new york kaplan cancer center new york university medical center first avenue new york new york unc lineberger comprehensive cancer center university of north carolina school of medicine chapel hill north carolina hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april duke comprehensive cancer center p o box durham north carolina cancer center of wake forest university at the bowman gray school of medicine south hawthorne road winston salem north carolina internet ccwfumail phs bgsm wfu edu ohio state university comprehensive cancer center west th avenue columbus ohio internet dyoung magnus acs ohio state edu fox chase cancer center burholme avenue philadelphia pennsylvania internet s davis fccc edu university of pennsylvania cancer center spruce street philadelphia pennsylvania pittsburgh cancer institute meyran avenue pittsburgh pennsylvania the university of texas m d anderson cancer center holcombe boulevard houston texas vermont cancer center university of vermont south prospect street burlington vermont hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april fred hutchinson cancer research center columbia street seattle washington internet sedmonds cclink fhcrc org university of wisconsin comprehensive cancer center highland avenue madison wisconsin bitnet carbone uwccc biostat wisc edu clinical cancer centers university of california at san diego cancer center dickinson street san diego california internet dedavis ucsd edu city of hope national medical center beckman research institute east duarte road duarte california ext university of colorado cancer center east th avenue box b denver colorado university of chicago cancer research center south maryland avenue box chicago illinois internet judith delphi bsd uchicago edu albert einstein college of medicine morris park avenue bronx new york hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april university of rochester cancer center elmwood avenue box rochester new york internet rickb wotan medicine rochester edu ireland cancer center case western reserve university university hospitals of cleveland abington road cleveland ohio roger williams cancer center brown university chalkstone avenue providence rhode island st jude children s research hospital north lauderdale street memphis tennessee internet meyer mbcf stjude org institute for cancer research and care medical drive san antonio texas utah regional cancer center university of utah health sciences center north medical drive room c salt lake city utah bitnet hogan cc utah edu massey cancer center medical college of virginia virginia commonwealth university east broad street richmond virginia consortia hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april drew meharry morehouse consortium cancer center d b todd boulevard nashville tennessee hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april general announcments the uci medical education software repository this is to announce the establishment of an ftp site at the university of california for the collection of shareware public domain software and other information relating to medical education specifically we are interested in establishing this site as a clearinghouse for personally developed software that has been developed for local medical education programs we welcome all contributions that may be shared with other users to connect to the uci medical education software repository ftp to ftp uci edu the repository currently offers both msdos and macintosh software and we hope to support other operating systems unix mumps amiga uploads are welcome we actively solicit information and software which you have personaly developed or have found useful in your local medical education efforts either as an instructor or student once you have connected to the site via ftp cd change directory to either the med ed mac incoming or the med ed msdos incoming directories change the mode to binary and send or put your files note that you won t be able to see the files with the ls or dir commands please compress your files as appropriate to the operating system zip for msdos compactor or something similar for macintosh to save disk space after uploading please send email to steve clancy slclancy uci edu for msdos or albert saisho saisho uci edu for mac describing the file s you have uploaded and any other information we might need to describe it note that we can only accept software or information that has been designated as shareware public domain or that may otherwise be distributed freely please do not upload commercial software doing so may jeopardize the existence of this ftp site if you wish to upload software for other operating systems please contact either steve clancy m l s or albert saisho m d at the addresses above hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april aids news summaries aids daily summary the centers for disease control and prevention cdc national aids clearinghouse makes available the following information as a public service only providing this information does not constitute endorsement by the cdc the cdc clearinghouse or any other organization reproduction of this text is encouraged however copies may not be sold copyright information inc bethesda md april nih set to test multiple aids vaccines reuters frank jacqueline washington the clinton administration will permit the national institutes of health to test multiple aids vaccines instead of only allowing the army to test a single vaccine administration sources said thursday the decision ends the controversy between army aids researchers who had hoped to test a vaccine made by microgenesys inc and the national institutes of health which contended that multiple vaccines should be tested health and human services secretary donna shalala said a final announcement on the therapeutic vaccine trials was expected to be made last friday companies including genentech inc chiron corp and immuno ag have already told nih that they are prepared to participate in the vaccine tests the testing is intended to demonstrate whether aids vaccines are effective in thwarting the replication of hiv in patients already infected shalala refuted last week s reports that the clinton administration had decided the army s test of the microgenesys vaxsyn should proceed without tests of others at the same time the report was inaccurate and i expect there to be some announcement in the next hours about that particular aids research project said shalala administration sources subsequently confirmed that nih director dr bernadine healy and food and drug administration commissioner david kessler had convinced the white house that multiple vaccines should be tested simultaneously but microgenesys president frank volvovitz said a test of multiple vaccines could triple the cost of the trial and delay it by two years hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april the limits of azt s impact on hiv u s news world report vol no p azt has become the most widely used drug to fight aids since it was approved by the food and drug administration in burroughs wellcome the manufacturer of azt made million last year alone from sales of the drug however a team of european researchers recently reported that although hiv positive patients taking azt demonstrated a slightly lower risk of developing aids within the first year of treatment that benefit disappeared two years later the lancet published preliminary findings of the three year study which could give more reason for critics to argue the drug s cost side effects and general efficacy even though u s researchers concede the study was more comprehensive than american trials many argue the european researchers suggestion that hiv positive patients experience little improvement in their illness before the development of aids symptoms in addition researchers have long been familiar with the end of part internet david stat com fax bitnet atw h asuacad fidonet amateur packet ax wb tpy wb tpy az usa na
sci.med	re my new diet it works great in article r ks innica lynx unm edu bhjelle carina unm edu writes in article apr omen uucp caf omen uucp chuck forsberg wa kgx writes in article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu gordon banks writes can you provide a reference to substantiate that gaining back the lost weight does not constitute weight rebound until it exceeds the starting weight or is this oral tradition that is shared only among you obesity researchers not one but two obesity in europe proceedings of the st european congress on obesity annals of ny acad sci hmmm these don t look like references to me is passive aggressive behavior associated with weight rebound brian i purposefully left off the page numbers to encourage the reader to study the volumes mentioned and benefit therefrom chuck forsberg wa kgx tektronix reed omen caf author of ymodem zmodem professional yam zcomm and dsz omen technology inc the high reliability software v nw sauvie is rd portland or
sci.med	re could this be a migraine gb from geb cs pitt edu gordon banks gb i am excepting migraine which is arguably neurologic gb i hope you meant inarguably given the choice i would rather argue g no arguments about migranous aura in fact current best evidence is that aura is intrinsicially neuronal a la spreading depression of leao rather than vascular something causing vasoconstriction and secondary neuronal ischemia migraine without aura however is a fuzzier issue there do not seem to be objectively measurable changes in brain function the copenhagen mafia lauritzen olesen et al have done local cbf studies on migraine without aura and unlike migraine with aura but like tension type they found no changes in lcbf from one absurd perspective all pain is neurologic because in the absence of a nervous system there would not be pain from another tautologic perspective any disease is in the domain of the specialty that treats it neurologists treat headache therefore at least in the usa headache is neurologic whether neurologic or not nobody would disagree that disabling headaches are common perhaps my fee for service neurologic colleagues scrounging for cases want all the headache patients they can get working on a salary however i would rather not fill my office with patients holding their heads in pain slmr e mail jim zisfein factory com jim zisfein
sci.med	re thrush was good grief was re candida albicans what is it dyer spdcc com steve dyer writes in article apr ucsvax sdsu edu mccurdy ucsvax sdsu edu mccurdy m writes dyer is beyond rude i ll drink to that yeah yeah yeah i didn t threaten to rip your lips off did i snort there have been and always will be people who are blinded by their own knowledge and unopen to anything that isn t already established given what the medical community doesn t know i m surprised that he has this outlook duh nice to see steve still has his high and almighty intellectual prowess in tact for the record i have had several outbreaks of thrush during the several past few years with no indication of immunosuppression or nutritional deficiencies i had not taken any antobiotics listen thrush is a recognized clinical syndrome with definite characteristics if you have thrush you have thrush because you can see the lesions and do a culture and when you treat it it generally responds well if you re not otherwise immunocompromised noring s anal retentive idee fixe on having a fungal infection in his sinuses is not even in the same category here nor are these walking neurasthenics who are convinced they have candida from reading a quack book yawn my dentist who sees a fair amount of thrush recommended acidophilous after i began taking acidophilous on a daily basis the outbreaks ceased when i quit taking the acidophilous the outbreaks periodically resumed i resumed taking the acidophilous with no further outbreaks since then so exactly my question to you steve what s your point this person had one you didn t steve dyer nice to see that some things never change steve if you aren t being ignorant in one group alternative you re into another one positive thing came out of it you are no longer bothering the folks in alternative it s just a shame that these people have to suffer so that others may breath freely sorry for wasting bandwidth folks don t forget to bow down once every second day and to offer your first born to the almight omniscient omnipotent mr steve
sci.med	cs chemical agent can anyone provide information on cs chemical agent the tear gas used recently in waco just what is it chemically and what are its effects on the body dsc gemini gsfc nasa gov regards hughes stx code gsfc doug caprette lanham maryland greenbelt md a path is laid one stone at a time the giant
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in c nfdg en sdf lonestar org marco sdf lonestar org steve giammarco writes and to add further fuel to the flame war i read about years ago that the natural msg extracted from the sources you mention above does not cause the reported aftereffects it s only that nasty artificial msg extracted from coal tar or whatever that causes chinese restaurant syndrome i find this pretty hard to believe has anyone else heard it msg is mono sodium glutamate a fairly straight forward compound if it is pure the source should not be a problem your comment suggests that impurities may be the cause my experience of msg effects as part of a double blind study was that the pure stuff caused me some rather severe effects i was under the possibly incorrect assumption that most of the msg on our foods was made from processing sugar beets is this not true are there other sources of msg soya bean fermented cheeses mushrooms all contain msg i am one of those folx who react sometimes strongly to msg however i also react strongly to sodium chloride table salt in excess each causes different symptoms except for the common one of rapid heartbeat and an uncomfortable feeling of pressure in my chest upper left quadrant the symptoms i had were numbness of jaw muscles in the first instance followed by the arms then the legs headache lethargy and unable to keep awake i think it may well affect people differently
sci.med	neurofibromatosis hello i am writing a grant proposal for a developmental genetics class and i have chose to look at the neurofibromatosis gene and its variable expressivity i am curious what has already been done on this subject especially the relationship between specific mutations and the resulting phenotype my literature search has produce many references but i want to make sure i am proposing new research if anyone knows aything that has been recently or key peopl doing research to search for using medline i would apprciate being informed thank you lisa megna lmegna titan ucc umass edu
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article annick cortex physiol su oz au annick cortex physiol su oz au annick ansselin writes in c nfdg en sdf lonestar org marco sdf lonestar org steve giammarco writes and to add further fuel to the flame war i read about years ago that the natural msg extracted from the sources you mention above does not cause the reported aftereffects it s only that nasty artificial msg extracted from coal tar or whatever that causes chinese restaurant syndrome i find this pretty hard to believe has anyone else heard it msg is mono sodium glutamate a fairly straight forward compound if it is pure the source should not be a problem your comment suggests that impurities may be the cause my experience of msg effects as part of a double blind study was that the pure stuff caused me some rather severe effects i was under the possibly incorrect assumption that most of the msg on our foods was made from processing sugar beets is this not true are there other sources of msg soya bean fermented cheeses mushrooms all contain msg i am one of those folx who react sometimes strongly to msg however i also react strongly to sodium chloride table salt in excess each causes different symptoms except for the common one of rapid heartbeat and an uncomfortable feeling of pressure in my chest upper left quadrant the symptoms i had were numbness of jaw muscles in the first instance followed by the arms then the legs headache lethargy and unable to keep awake i think it may well affect people differently well i think msg is made from a kind of plant call tapioca and not those staff you mentiond above
sci.med	re broken rib hello i think you are probaly right in spite of the movement it is getting better each day cheers jc oneb almanac bc ca john cross the old frog s almanac home of the almanac unix users group v public access usenet x vancouver island british columbia waffle xenix
sci.med	arythmia i don t know if anyone knows about this topic electrical heart failure one of my friends has had to go to the doctor because he had chest pains the doc said it was arythmia so he had to go to a new york hospital for a lot of money to get treated his doctors said that he could die from it and the medication caused cancer that he was taking well i suggested that he run excersize and eat more he is very skinny but he says that has nothing to do with it does anyone know what causes arythmia and how it can be treated thanks
sci.med	re acutane fibromyalgia syndrome and cfs reply to daniel prince f n z calcom socal com daniel prince there is a person on the fido cfs echo who claims that he was cured of cfs by taking accutane he also claims that you are using it in the treatment of fibromyalgia syndrome are you using accutane in the treatment of fibromyalgia syndrome yes have you used it for cfs it seems to work equally well for cfs another hint that these may be different facets of the same underlying process have you gotten good results with it yes the benefit is usually evident within a few days of starting it most of the patients for whom it has worked well continued low dose amitriptyline daily aerobic excersise and a regular sleep schedule current standard therapy because of the cost usually mo depending on dose and potential for significant side effects like corneal injury and birth defects i currently reserve it for those who fail conventional treatment it is important that the person prescribing it have some experience with it and follow the patient closely are you aware of any double blind studies on the use of accutane in these conditions thank you in advance for all replies as far as i know i am the only person looking at it currently i should get off my duff and finish writing up some case reports i m not an academic physician so i don t feel the pressure to publish or perish and i don t have the time during the work day for such things david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire wi this is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities bertrand russell
sci.med	re good grief was re candida albicans what is it reply to aldridge netcom com jacquelin aldridge medicine is not a totally scientific endevour the acquisition of scientific knowledge is completely scientific the application of that knowledge in individual cases may be more art than science there are diseases that haven t been described yet and the root cause of many diseases now described aren t known read a book on gastroenterology sometime if you want to see a lot of them after scientific methods have run out then it s the patient s freedom of choice to try any experimental method they choose and it s well recognized by many doctors that medicine doesn t have all the answers certainly we don t have all the answers the question is what is the most reliable means of acquiring further medical knowledge the scientific method has proven itself to be reliable the only reason alternative therapies are shunned by physicians is that their practitioners refuse to submit their theories to rigorous scientific scrutiny insisting that tradition or anecdotal evidence are sufficient these have been shown many times in the past to be very unreliable ways of acquiring reliable knowledge crook s ideas have never been backed up by scientific evidence his unwillingness to do good science makes the rest of us doubt the veracity of his contentions david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire wi this is patently absurd but whoever wishes to become a philosopher must learn not to be frightened by absurdities bertrand russell
sci.med	re burzynski s antineoplastons in article jschwimmer wccnet wcc wesleyan edu jschwimmer wccnet wcc wesleyan edu josh schwimmer writes i ve recently listened to a tape by dr stanislaw burzynski in which he claims to have discovered a series naturally occuring peptides with anti cancer properties that he names antineoplastons burzynski says that his work has met with hostility in the united states despite the favorable responses of his subjects during clinical trials what is the generally accepted opinion of dr burzynski s research he paints himself as a lone researcher with a new breakthrough battling an intolerant medical establishment but i have no basis from which to judge his claims two weeks ago however i read that the nih s department of alternative medicine has decided to focus their attention on burzynski s work their budget is so small that i imagine they wouldn t investigate a treatment that didn t seem promising any opinions on burzynski s antineoplastons or information about the current status of his research would be appreciated joshua schwimmer jschwimmer eagle wesleyan edu there s been extensive discussion on the compuserve cancer forum about dr burzynski s treatment as a result of the decision of a forum member s father to undertake his treatment for brain glioblastoma this disease is universally and usually rapidly fatal after diagnosis in june the tumor was growing rapidly despite radiation and chemotherapy the forum member checked extensively on dr burzynki s track record for this disease he spoke to a few patients in complete remission for a few years from glioblastoma following this treatment and to an nci oncologist who had audited other such case histories and found them valid and impressive after the forum member s father began dr burzynski s treatment in september all subsequent scans performed under the auspices of his oncologist in chicago have shown no tumor growth with possible signs of shrinkage or necrosis the patient s oncologist although telling him he would probably not live past december was vehemently opposed to his trying dr burzynski s treatment since the tumor stopped its rapid growth under dr burzynski s treatment she s since changed her attitude toward continuing these treatments saying if it ain t broke don t fix it dr burzynski is an m d ph d with a research background who found a protein that is at very low serum levels in cancer patients synthesized it and administers it to patients with certain cancer types there is little understanding of the actual mechanism of activity david e scheim bitnet none internet desl helix nih gov phone compuserve fax disclaimer these comments are offered to share knowledge based upon my personal views they do not represent the positions of my employer
sci.med	cytoskeleton dynamics i m looking for good background and review paper references that can help me understand the dynamics of cytoskeleton in normal and transformed cells in particular i m not interested in translational behavior and cell motility but rather in the internal motions of the cytoskeleton and its components under normal and transformed circumstances also i d appreciate any data on force constants mechanical and elastic properties of microtubules and viscous properties of cytoplasm any other info relevant to the vibrational or acoustical properties of these would be useful to me thanks bill christens barry cerulean access digex com
sci.med	selective placebo l levin bbn com joel b levin writes l john badanes wrote l jb ron what do you consider to be proper channels l l i m glad it caught your eye that s the purpose of this forum to l educate those eager to learn about the facts of life that phrase l is used to bridle the frenzy of all the would be respondents who l otherwise would feel being left out as the proper authorities to be l consulted on that topic in short it means absolutely nothing l l an apt description of the content of just about all ron roth s l posts to date at least there s entertainment value though it l is diminishing well that s easy for you to say all you have to do is sit back soak it all in try it out on your patients and then brag to all your colleagues about that incredibly success rate you re having all of a sudden ron rosereader p for real sponge cake borrow all ingredients rosemail usenet rose media hamilton
sci.med	re hismanal et al side effects in article apr spdcc com dyer spdcc com steve dyer writes in article apr lrc edu kjiv lrc edu writes can someone tell me whether or not any of the following medications has been linked to rapid excessive weight gain and or a distorted sense of taste or smell hismanal azmacort a topical steroid to prevent asthma vancenase hismanal astemizole is most definitely linked to weight gain it really is peculiar that some antihistamines have this effect and even more so an antihistamine like astemizole which purportedly doesn t cross the blood brain barrier and so tends not to cause drowsiness so antihistamines can cause weight gain now they tell me is there any way to find out which do which don t my doctor obviously is asleep at the wheel the original poster mentioned fatigue i had that too but it was mostly due to the really bizarre dreams i was having i wasn t getting any rest my doctor said that was a common reaction if astemizole doesn t cross the blood brain barrier how does it cause that side effect any ideas sheryl coppenger seas computing facility staff sheryl seas gwu edu the george washington university
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition smjeff lerc lerc nasa gov jeff miller writes even properly controlled studies e g double blind studies are almost useless if you are trying to prove that something does not affect anyone and in article qnns l agate berkeley edu spp zabriskie berkeley edu steve pope writes the mass of anectdotal evidence combined with the lack of a properly constructed scientific experiment disproving the hypothesis makes the msg reaction hypothesis the most likely explanation for events good grief has no one ever heard of biostatistics the university of washington plus or others harvard unc has a department and advanced degree program in biostatistics my wife has an ms biostat and there are plenty of mds phds and postdocs doing biostatistical work people do this for a living really bright people study for decades to do this sort of study well anecedotal evidence is worthless even doctors who have been using a drug or treatment for years and who swear it is effective are often suprised at the results of clinical trials whether or not msg causes describable reportable documentable symptoms should be pretty simple to discover the last study on which my wife worked employed nurses doctors and a dozen ph ds at one university and at hospitals in five nations i would think the msg question could be settled by one lowly biostat ms student in a thesis bruce
sci.med	re krillean photography living things maintain small electric fields to enhance certain chemical reactions promote communication of states with in a cell communicate between cells of which the nervous system is a specialized example and perhaps other uses these electric fields change with location and time in a large organism special photographic techniques such as applying external fields in kirillian photography interact with these fields or the resistances caused by these fields to make interesting pictures perhaps such pictures will be diagonistic of disease problems in organisms when better understood perhaps not studying the overall electric activity of biological systems is several hundred years old but not a popular activity perhaps except in the case of a few tissues like nerves and the electric senses of fishes it is hard to reduce the investigation into small pieces that can be clearly analyzed there are some hints that manipulating electric fields is a useful therapy such as speeding the healing of broken bones but not understood why bioelectricity has a long association with mysticism ideas such as frankenstein reanimation go back to the most early electrical experiments on tissue such as when volta invented the battery i personally don t care to revert to supernatural cause to explain things we don t yet understand
sci.med	sore spot on testicles my husband woke up three days ago with a small sore spot a spot about the size of a nickel on one of his testicles bottom side no knots or lumps just a little sore spot he says it reminds him of how a bruise feels he has no recollection of hitting it or anything like that that would cause a bruise he asssures me he d remember something like that any clues as to what it might be he s somewhat of a hypochondriac sp so he s sure he s gonna die thanks the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the university of north carolina at chapel hill the campus office for information technology or the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu or
sci.med	re thrush was good grief was re candida albicans what is it in article apr ucsvax sdsu edu mccurdy ucsvax sdsu edu mccurdy m writes my dentist who sees a fair amount of thrush recommended acidophilous after i began taking acidophilous on a daily basis the outbreaks ceased when i quit taking the acidophilous the outbreaks periodically resumed i resumed taking the acidophilous with no further outbreaks since then this is the second post which seems to be blurring the distinction between real disease caused by candida albicans and the disease that was being asked about systemic yeast syndrome there is no question that candida albicans causes thrush it also seems to be the case that active yogurt cultures with acidophilous may reduce recurrences of thrush at least for vaginal thrush i ve never heard of anyone taking it for oral thrush before though presumably it would work by the same mechanism candida is clearly a common minor pathogen and a less common major pathogen that does not mean that there is evidence that it causes the systemic yeast syndrome david rind rind enterprise bih harvard edu
sci.med	opinions on allergy hay fever shots hello i am interested in trying this desensitization method against hay fever what is the state of affairs about this i went to a doctor and paid for a minute interview scratches leading to the diagnostic that i am allergic to june and timothy grass i believe this from now on it looks like shots per week for months followed by shot per month or so each shot costs talking about soaring costs and the health care system i would call that a racket we are not talking about rare amazonian grasses here but the garbage which grows behind the doctor s office apart from this issue i was somewhat disappointed to find out that you have to keep getting the shots forever is that right thanks for information ej
sci.med	re discussions on alt psychoactives in article r bhsinnhaf hp col col hp com billc col hp com bill claussen writes this group was originally a takeoff from sci med the reason for the formation of this group was to discuss prescription psychoactive drugs such as oh well obviously no one really cares then let me ask you for a workable solution we have a name here that implies certain things to many people rather than trying to educate each and every person that comes to the group is there some name that would imply what this group was originally intended for my dad was a lawyer as such i grew up with being a stickler for meaning in my reality psychoactives technically could range from caffeine to datura to the drugs you mention to more standard recreational drugs in practice i had hoped to see it limited to those that were above some psychoactive level like some of the drugs you mention but also possibly including some recreational drugs but with conversation limited to their psychoactive effects the recent query about bong water i thought was a bit off topic so i just hit k but back to the original question what is a workable solution what is a workable name that would imply the topic you with to discuss it sounds like there should be a alt smartdrugs or something similar i don t feel psychoactives would generally be used to describe alot of those drugs there is a big difference between a drug that if taken in certain doses over a period of days may have a psychoactive effect in some people vs many of the drugs in pihkah which are psychoactive wm if pro choice means choice after conception does this apply to men too
sci.med	re getting aids from acupuncture needles in article r f b euu agate berkeley edu romdas uclink berkeley edu ella i baff writes someone wrote in expressing concern about getting aids from acupuncture needles unless your friend is sharing fluids with their acupuncturist who themselves has aids it is unlikely not impossible they will get aids from acupuncture needles generally even if accidently inoculated the normal immune response should be enough to effectively handle the minimal contaminant involved with acupuncture needle insertion isn t this what hiv is about the normal immune response to an exposure most acupuncturists use disposable needles use once and throw away i had electrical pulse nerve testing done a while back the needles were taken from a dirty drawer in an instrument cart and were most certainly not sterile or even clean for that matter more than likely they were fresh from the previous patient i was concerned but i kept my mouth shut i probably should have raised hell any comments no excuses
sci.med	re food related seizures in article bu edu dozonoff bu edu david ozonoff writes path news larc nasa gov darwin sura net zaphod mps ohio state edu uwm edu linac att bu edu dozonoff from dozonoff bu edu david ozonoff newsgroups sci med date apr gmt references paulson apr cmb larc nasa gov sender news bu edu lines x newsreader tin pl sharon paulson paulson tab larc nasa gov wrote much deleted the fact that this happened while eating two sugar coated cereals made by kellog s makes me think she might be having an allergic reaction to something in the coating or the cereals of the four of us in our immediate family kathryn shows the least signs of the hay fever running nose itchy eyes etc but we have a lot of allergies in our family history including some weird food allergies nuts mushrooms many of these cereals are corn based after your post i looked in the literature and located two articles that implicated corn contains tryptophan and seizures the idea is that corn in the diet might potentiate an already existing or latent seizure disorder not cause it check to see if the two kellog cereals are corn based i d be interested david ozonoff md mph boston university school of public health dozonoff med itvax bu edu east concord st t c boston ma a couple of folks have suggested the corn connection in the five month period between the two seizures my daughter had eaten a fair amount of kix and berry berry kix in the mornings and never had a problem i checked the labels and the first ingredient is corn she has also never had a problem eating corn or corn on the cob but of course that is usually later in the day with a full stomach so the absorption would not be so high i do believe that frost flakes have corn in them but i will have to check the fruit loops but the fact that she has eaten this other corny cereal in the morning makes me wonder thanks for checking into this all information at this point is valuable to me sharon sharon paulson s s paulson larc nasa gov nasa langley research center bldg d mailstop work hampton virginia home
sci.med	reasons for hospitals to join internet what resources and services are available on internet bitnet which would be of interest to hospitals and other medical care providers i m interested in anything relelvant including institutions and businesses of interest to the medical profession on internet special services such as online access to libraries or diagnostic information etc etc please reply directly to andy maine edu
sci.med	wanted rat cell line adrenal gland cortical c i am looking for a rat cell line of adrenal gland cortical cell type i have been looking at atcc without success and would very much appreciate any help thank you for reading this christophe roos institute of biotechnology fax pobox valimotie e mail christophe roos helsinki fi university of helsinki x g christophe s roos sf finland o helsinki a fumail c fi
sci.med	re how to diagnose lyme really gordon banks geb cs pitt edu wrote in article apr ns cc lehigh edu mcg ns cc lehigh edu marc gabriel writes now i m not saying that culturing is the best way to diagnose it s very hard to culture bb in most cases the point is that dr n has developed a feel for what is and what isn t ld this comes from years of experience no serology can match that unfortunately some would call dr n a quack and accuse him of trying to make a quick buck why do you think he would be called a quack the quacks don t do cultures they poo poo doing more lab tests this is lyme believe me i ve seen it many times the lab tests aren t accurate we ll treat it now also is dr n s practice almost exclusively devoted to treating lyme patients i don t know any orthopedic surgeons who fit this pattern they are usually gps no he does not exclusively treat ld patients however in some parts of the country you don t need to be known as an ld specialist to see a large number of ld patients walk through your office given the huge problem of underdiagnosis orthopedists encounter late manifestations of the disease just about every day in their regular practices dr n told me that last year he sent between and patients a week to the ld specialists and he is not the only orthopedists in the town let s say that only people per week actually have ld that means at the very minimum people in our town and immediate area develop late stage manifestations of ld every year add in the folks who were diagnosed by neurologists rheumatologists gps etc and you can see what kind of problem we have no wonder just about everybody in town personally knows an ld patient he refers most patients to ld specialists but in extreme cases he puts the patient on medication immediately to minimize the damage in most cases to the knees gordon is correct when he states that most ld specialists are gps marc marc c gabriel u c box lehigh university
sci.med	re hismanal et al side effects in article apr seas gwu edu sheryl seas gwu edu sheryl coppenger writes in article apr spdcc com dyer spdcc com steve dyer writes hismanal astemizole is most definitely linked to weight gain it really is peculiar that some antihistamines have this effect and even more so an antihistamine like astemizole which purportedly doesn t cross the blood brain barrier and so tends not to cause drowsiness the original poster mentioned fatigue i had that too but it was mostly due to the really bizarre dreams i was having i wasn t getting any rest my doctor said that was a common reaction if astemizole doesn t cross the blood brain barrier how does it cause that side effect any ideas it made me really bitchy for the first few weeks now that i think about it i was having some bizarre dreams too my doctor said it made him feel like he had to be doing something all the time but if you keep taking it after a few weeks these symptoms seem to go away he said hang in there i did and they did
sci.med	program reg forms st int conf on intell sys for molecular biology for those attending the aaai conf this summer note that this conference is immediately preceding it preliminary program and registration materials first international conference on intelligent systems for molecular biology washington d c july sponsored by the national institutes of health national library of medicine the department of energy office of health and environmental research the biomatrix society the american association for artificial intelligence aaai poster session and tutorials bethesda ramada hotel technical sessions lister hill center auditorium national library of medicine for more information contact ismb nlm nih gov or fax purpose this the first international conference on intelligent systems for molecular biology is the inaugural meeting in a series intended to bring together scientists who are applying the technologies of artificial intelligence robotics machine learning massively parallel computing advanced data modelling and related methods to problems in molecular biology the scope extends to any computational or robotic system supporting a biological task that is cognitively challenging involves a synthesis of information from multiple sources at multiple levels or in some other way exhibits the abstraction and emergent properties of an intelligent system facilities the conference will be held at lister hill center national library of medicine rockville pike nih building a bethesda md seating in the conference center is strictly limited so registrations will be accepted on a first come first serve basis accomodations as well as a reception and poster session will be at the bethesda ramada hotel wisconsin avenue bethesda md a special room rate has been negotiated with the hotel of day expires attendees must make their own reservations by writing the hotel or calling and mentioning the ismb conference to participate in a roommate matching service e mail opitz cs wisc edu transportation the two facilities are within easy walking distance convenient to the subway metro red line medical center stop and from there to the amtrak station nearby airports include dulles national and baltimore washington international proceedings full length papers from both talks and posters will be published in archival proceedings the citation is proceedings of the first international conference on intelligent systems for molecular biology eds l hunter d searls and j shavlik aaai mit press menlo park ca copies will be distributed at the conference to registered attendees and will be available for purchase from the publisher afterwards talks wednesday july am continental breakfast am opening remarks am invited talk statistics protein cores and predicted structures prof temple smith boston university am break am constructive induction and protein structure prediction t r ioerger l rendell s surbramaniam am protein secondary structure modeling with probabilistic networks a l delcher s kasif h r goldberg w hsu pm lunch pm protein secondary structure using two level case based reasoning b leng b g buchanan h b nicholas pm automatic derivation of substructures yields novel structural building blocks in globular proteins x zhang j s fetrow w a rennie d l waltz g berg pm using dirichlet mixture priors to derive hidden markov models for protein families m brown r hughey a krogh i s mian k sjolander d haussler pm break pm protein classification using neural networks e a ferran b pflugfelder p ferrara pm neural networks for molecular sequence classification c wu m berry y s fung j mclarty pm computationally efficient cluster representation in molecular sequence megaclassification d j states n harris l hunter pm poster setup pm reception poster session thursday july am continental breakfast am invited talk large scale dna sequencing a tale of mice and men prof leroy hood university of washington am break am pattern recognition for automated dna sequencing i on line signal conditioning and feature extraction for basecalling j b bolden iii d torgersen c tibbetts am genetic algorithms for sequence assembly r parsons s forrest c burks am a partial digest approach to restriction site mapping s s skiena g sundaram pm lunch pm integrating order and distance relationships from heterogeneous maps m graves pm discovering sequence similarity by the algorithmic significance method a milosavljevic pm identification of human gene functional regions based on oligonucleotide composition v v solovyev c b lawrence pm knowledge discovery in genbank j s aaronson j haas g c overton pm break pm an expert system to generate machine learning experiments learning with dna crystallography data d cohen c kulikowski h berman pm detection of correlations in trna sequences with structural implications t m klingler d brutlag pm probabilistic structure calculations a three dimensional trna structure from sequence correlation data r b altman friday july am continental breakfast am invited talk artificial intelligence and a grand unified theory of biochemistry prof harold morowitz george mason university am break am testing hiv molecular biology in in silico physiologies h b sieburg c baray am identification of localized and distributed bottlenecks in metabolic pathways m l mavrovouniotis am fine grain databases for pattern discovery in gene regulation s m veretnik b r schatz pm lunch pm representation for discovery of protein motifs d conklin s fortier j glasgow pm finding relevant biomolecular features l hunter t klein pm database techniques for biological materials and methods k baclawski r futrelle n fridman m j pescitelli pm a multi level description scheme of protein conformation k onizuka k asai m ishikawa s t c wong pm break pm protein topology prediction through parallel constraint logic programming d a clark c j rawlings j shirazi a veron m reeve pm a constraint reasoning system for automating sequence specific resonance assignments in multidimensional protein nmr spectra d zimmerman c kulikowski g t montelione pm closing remarks poster session the following posters will be on display at the bethesda ramada hotel from pm wednesday july the induction of rules for predicting chemical carcinogenesis in rodents d bahler d bristol senex a clos clim application for molecular pathology s s ball v h mah flash a fast look up algorithm for string homology a califano i rigoutsos toward multi strategy parallel learning in sequence analysis p k chan s j stolfo protein structure prediction selecting salient features from large candidate pools k j cherkauer j w shavlik comparison of two approaches to the prediction of protein folding patterns i dubchak s r holbrook s h kim a modular learning environment for protein modeling j gracy l chiche j sallantin inference of order in genetic systems j n guidi t h roderick palm a pattern language for molecular biology c helgesen p r sibbald grammatical formalization of metabolic processes r hofestedt representations of metabolic knowledge p d karp m riley protein sequencing experiment planning using analogy b kettler l darden design of an object oriented database for reverse genetics k j kochut j arnold j a miller w d potter a small automaton for word recognition in dna sequences c lefevre j e ikeda multimap an expert system for automated genetic linkage mapping t c matise m perlin a chakravarti constructing a distributed object oriented system with logical constraints for fluorescence activated cell sorting t matsushima prediction of primate splice junction gene sequences with a cooperative knowledge acquisition system e m nguifo j sallantin object oriented knowledge bases for the analysis of prokaryotic and eukaryotic genomes g perriere f dorkeld f rechenmann c gautier petri net representations in metabolic pathways v n reddy m l mavrovouniotis m l liebman minimizing complexity in cellular automata models of self replication j a reggia h h chou s l armentrout y peng building large knowledge bases in molecular biology o schmeltzer c medigue p uvietta f rechenmann f dorkeld g perriere c gautier a service oriented information sources database for the biological sciences g k springer t b patrick hidden markov models and iterative aligners study of their equivalence and possibilities h tanaka k asai m ishikawa a konagaya protein structure prediction system based on artificial neural networks j vanhala k kaski transmembrane segment prediction from protein sequence data s m weiss d m cohen n indurkhya tutorial program tutorials will be conducted at the bethesda ramada hotel on tuesday july pm introduction to molecular biology for computer scientists prof mick noordewier rutgers university this overview of the essential facts of molecular biology is intended as an introduction to the field for computer scientists who wish to apply their tools to this rich and complex domain material covered will include structural and informational molecules the basic organization of the cell and of genetic material the central dogma of gene expression and selected other topics in the area of structure function and regulation as relates to current computational approaches dr noordewier has appointments in both computer science and biology at rutgers and has extensive experience in basic biological research in addition to his current work in computational biology pm introduction to artificial intelligence for biologists dr richard lathrop mit arris corp an overview of the field of artificial intelligence will be presented as it relates to actual and potential biological applications fundamental techniques symbolic programming languages and notions of search will be discussed as well as selected topics in somewhat greater detail such as knowledge representation inference and machine learning the intended audience includes biologists with some computational background but no extensive exposure to artificial intelligence dr lathrop co developer of ariadne and related technologies has worked in the area of artificial intelligence applied to biological problems in both academia and industry pm neural networks statistics and information theory in biological sequence analysis dr alan lapedes los alamos national laboratory this tutorial will cover the most rapidly expanding facet of intelligent systems for molecular biology that of machine learning techniques applied to sequence analysis closely interrelated topics to be addressed include the use of artifical neural networks to elicit both specific signals and general characteristics of sequences and the relationship of such approaches to statistical techniques and information theoretic views of sequence data dr lapedes of the theoretical division at los alamos has long been a leader in the use of such techniques in this domain pm genetic algorithms and genetic programming prof john koza stanford university the genetic algorithm an increasingly popular approach to highly non linear multi dimensional optimization problems was originally inspired by a biological metaphor this tutorial will cover both the biological motivations and the actual implementation and characteristics of the algorithm genetic programming an extension well suited to problems where the discovery of the size and shape of the solution is a major part of the problem will also be addressed particular attention will be paid to biological applications and to identifying resources and software that will permit attendees to begin using the methods dr koza a consulting professor of computer science at stanford has taught this subject since and is the author of a standard text in the field pm linguistic methods in sequence analysis prof david searls university of pennsylvania shmuel pietrokovski weizmann institute approaches to sequence analysis based on linguistic methodologies are increasingly in evidence these involve the adaptation of tools and techniques from computational linguistics for syntactic pattern recognition and gene prediction the classification of genetic structures and phenomena using formal language theory the identification of significant vocabularies and overlapping codes in sequence data and sequence comparison reflecting taxonomic and functional relatedness dr searls who holds research faculty appointments in both genetics and computer science at penn represents the branch of this field that considers higher order syntactic approaches to sequence data while shmuel pietrokovski has studied and published with prof edward trifinov in the area of word based analyses registration form mail with check made out to ismb to ismb conference c o j shavlik computer sciences department university of wisconsin west dayton street madison wi usa name affiliation address phone fax electronic mail registration status regular student presenting talk poster tutorial registration molecular biology for computer scientists or artificial intelligence for biologists neural networks statistics and or information theory in sequence analysis genetic algorithms and genetic programming or linguistic methods in sequence analysis payment early registration before june registration early late regular student tutorials one two regular student total registration fees include conference proceedings refreshments and general program expenses organizing committee lawrence hunter nlm david searls u of pennsylvania jude shavlik u of wisconsin program committee douglas brutlag stanford u bruce buchanan u of pittsburgh christian burks los alamos national lab fred cohen u c san francisco chris fields inst for genome research michael gribskov u c san diego peter karp sri international toni kazic washington u alan lapedes los alamos national lab richard lathrop mit arris corp charles lawrence baylor michael mavrovouniotis u of maryland george michaels nih harold morowitz george mason u katsumi nitta icot mick noordewier rutgers u ross overbeek argonne national lab chris rawlings icrf derek sleeman u of aberdeen david states washington u gary stormo u of colorado ed uberbacher oak ridge national lab david waltz thinking machines corp
sci.med	re accupuncture and aids in article c t d x news cso uiuc edu euclid mrcnext cso uiuc edu euclid k writes aliceb tea two eng sun com alice taylor writes a friend of mine is seeing an acupuncturist and wants to know if there is any danger of getting aids from the needles ask the practitioner whether he uses the pre sterilized disposable needles or if he reuses needles sterilizing them between use in the former case there s no conceivable way to get aids from the needles in the latter case it s highly unlikely though many practitioners use the disposable variety anyway it is illegal to perform acupuncture with unsterilized needles no licensed practitioner would dare do this also there is not a single documented case of transmission of aids via acupuncture needles i wouldn t worry about it robert greenstein what the fool cannot learn he laughs at thinking green srilanka island com that by his laughter he shows superiority instead of latent idiocy m corelli
sci.med	diet for crohn s ibd a friend has what is apparently a fairly minor case of crohn s disease but she can t seem to eat certain foods such as fresh vegetables without discomfort and of course she wants to avoid a recurrence her question is are there any nutritionists who specialize in the problems of people with crohn s disease i saw the suggestion of lipoxygnase inhibitors like tea and turmeric thanks in advance john eyles jge cs unc edu
sci.med	neurasthenia in article apr spdcc com dyer spdcc com steve dyer writes responds well if you re not otherwise immunocompromised noring s anal retentive idee fixe on having a fungal infection in his sinuses is not even in the same category here nor are these walking neurasthenics who are convinced they have candida from reading a quack book speaking of which has anyone else been impressed with how much the descriptions of neurasthenia published a century ago sound like cfs gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re my new diet it works great in article apr omen uucp caf omen uucp chuck forsberg wa kgx writes can you provide a reference to substantiate that gaining back the lost weight does not constitute weight rebound until it exceeds the starting weight or is this oral tradition that is shared only among you obesity researchers annals of ny acad sci hmmm these don t look like references to me is passive aggressive behavior associated with weight rebound i purposefully left off the page numbers to encourage the reader to study the volumes mentioned and benefit therefrom good story chuck but it won t wash i have read the ny acad sci one and have it this am i couldn t find any reference to weight rebound i m not saying it isn t there but since you cited it it is your responsibility to show me where it is in there there is no index i suspect you overstepped your knowledge base as usual gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	good book having been gone for days i m way behind on my news reading so many pardons if i am repeating something that has been said already i read a good book while i was away the antibiotic paradox how miracle drugs are destroying the miracle stuart b levy m d plenum press isbn it is about drug resistant microorganisms the history of antibiotics it is interesting written at a level which i think many sci med readers would appreciate which is it assumes an intelligent reader who is capable of understanding scientific concepts but who may not yet have been exposed to this particular information i e it assumes you are smart enough to understand it but it does not assume that you already have a degree in microbiology or medicine table of contents chapter from tragedy the antibiotic age is born chapter the disease and the cure the microscopic world of bacteria and antibiotics chapter reliance on medicine and self medication the seeds of antibiotic misuse chapter antibiotic resistance microbial adaptation and evolution chapter the antibiotic myth chapter antibiotics animals and the resistance gene pool chapter further ecological considerations antibiotic use in agriculture aquaculture pets and minor animal species chapter future prospects new advances against potential disaster chapter the individual and antibiotic resistance chapter antibiotic resistance a societal issue at local national and international levels includes bibliography and index i personally found that it made very good airplane reading rg ruth ginzberg rginzberg eagle wesleyan edu philosophy department wesleyan university usa
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article qnns l agate berkeley edu spp zabriskie berkeley edu steve pope writes the mass of anectdotal evidence combined with the lack of a properly constructed scientific experiment disproving the hypothesis makes the msg reaction hypothesis the most likely explanation for events the following is from a critique of a minutes presentation on msg which was aired on november rd the critique comes from the tufts diet and nutrition letter february edited for brevity chances are good that if you watched minutes last november rd you came away feeling msg is bad for you in the segment entitled no msg for instance show host ed bradley makes alarming statements without adequately substantiating them millions are suffering a host of symptoms and some get violently sick peppers his report with sensational but clinically unproven personal testimony and speaks of studies on msg that make the substance seem harmful without explaining just how inconclusive those studies are consider his making reference at the beginning of the program to a study conducted at the eastern virginia medical school in order to back up his comment that there is a lot of evidence that msg a flavor enhancer in chinese and other asian cuisines as well as in many supermarket items causes headaches what he does not make reference to is the fact that the study was performed not on humans but on rabbits one of the researchers who conducted the study pharmacologist patricia williams ph d says it certainly is conceivable that a small minority of people are sensitive enough to msg to get headaches from it but she explains the show probably overemphasized the extent of the problem a second lapse comes with mention of dr john olney a professor at the washington university school of medicine who mr bradley remarks says that his years of research with laboratory animals shows msg is a hazard for developing youngsters because it poses a threat of irreversible brain damage dr olney s research with lab animals does not show anything about human youngsters in fact only under extreme circumsrtances did dr olney s experiments ever bring about any brain damage when he injected extremely high doses of msg into rodents completely bypassing their digestive tracts and entering their bloodstreams more directly and when he used tubes to force feed huge amounts of the substance to very young animals on an empty stomach of course neither of those procedures occurs with humans they simply take in msg with food and most of what they take in is broken down by enzymes in the wall of the small intestine so that very little reaches the bloodstream much to little in fact for human blood levels of msg to come anywhere near the high concentrations found in dr olney s lab animals the world health organization appears to be very much aware of that fact and so does the european communities scientific committee for food both after examining numerous studies have concluded that msg is safe their determination makes sense considering that msg has never been proven to cause all the symptoms that have been attributed to it headaches swelling a tightness in the chest and a burning sensation among others in fact the most fail safe of clinical studies the double blind study has consistently exonerated the much maligned substance that s quite fortunate since the alleged hazardous component of monosodium glutamate glutamate enters our systems whenever we eat any food that contains protein the reason is that one of the amino acids that make up protein glutamic acid is broken down into glutamate during digestion it s a breakdown that occurs frequently glutamic acid is the most abundant of the or so amino acids in the diet it makes up about percent of the protein in flesh foods percent in milk percent in corn and percent in whole wheat that doesn t mean it s entirely unimaginable that a small number of people have trouble metabolizing msg properly and are therefore sensitive to it the consensus reached by large international professional organizations is that msg is safe the same consensus reached by the fda and the biomedical community at large rich young these are not kodak s opinions
sci.med	re seek sedative information in article c ubrn f u fig citib com ghica fig citib com renato ghica writes has any one heard of a sedative called rhoepnol made by larouche i believe any info as to side effects or equivalent tranquillizers you probably mean rohypnol a member of the benzodiazepine family chemical name is flunitrazepam it is such a strong tranquilizer that it is probably best refered to as a hypnotic rather than a tranquilizer just one pill will knock you on your ass side effects may be similar to valium xanax serax librium and other benzodiazepines neal howard xlh dod computrac inc richardson tx doh o neal cmptrc lonestar org std disclaimer my opinions are mine not computrac s let us learn to dream gentlemen and then perhaps we shall learn the truth august kekule
sci.med	re should i be angry at this doctor mryan stsci edu writes am i justified in being pissed off at this doctor last saturday evening my year old son cut his finger badly with a knife i took him to a local urgent and general care clinic at pm the clinic was open till pm the receptionist went to the back and told the doctor that we were there and came back and told us the doctor would not see us because she had someplace to go at and did not want to be delayed here during the next few minutes in response to my questions with several trips to the back room the receptionist told me the doctor was doing paperwork in the back the doctor would not even look at his finger to advise us on going to the emergency room the doctor would not even speak to me she would not tell me the doctor s name or her own name when asked who is in charge of the clinic she said i don t know i realize that a private clinic is not the same as an emergency room but i was quite angry at being turned away because the doctor did not want to be bothered my son did get three stitches at the emergency room speaking as a physician who works in an urgent care center the above behavior is completely inappropriate if a patient who requires extensive care shows up at the last minute we always see them and give them appropriate care it is reasonable for a clinic to refuse to see patients outside of its posted hours but what you describe is misbehavior ask to speak to the clinic director and complain whatever their attitude they have nothing to gain from angering patients brandon brylawski
sci.med	re diet for crohn s ibd in article r g finne ceti cs unc edu jge cs unc edu john eyles wrote a friend has what is apparently a fairly minor case of crohn s disease but she can t seem to eat certain foods such as fresh vegetables without discomfort and of course she wants to avoid a recurrence her question is are there any nutritionists who specialize in the problems of people with crohn s disease i saw the suggestion of lipoxygnase inhibitors like tea and turmeric thanks in advance john eyles jge cs unc edu if she is having problems with fresh vegetables the guess is that there is some obstruction of the intestine without knowing more it is not possible to say whether the obstruction is permanent due to scarring or temporary due to swelling of inflammed intestine in general there are no dietary limitations in patients with crohn s except as they relate to obstruction there is no evidence that any foods will bring on recurrence of crohn s it is important to distinguish recurrence from recurrent symptoms a physician would think of new inflammation as recurrence while pains from raw veggies just imply a narrowing of the intestine your friend should look into membership in the crohn s and colitis foundation of america good luck to your friend steve holland
sci.med	re krillean photography in article apr unlv edu todamhyp charles unlv edu brian m huey writes in article apr unlv edu todamhyp charles unlv edu brian m huey writes i think that s the correct spelling the proper spelling is kirlian it was an effect discoverd by s kirlian a soviet film developer in as i recall the coronas visible are ascribed to static discharges and chemical reactions between the organic material and the silver halides in the films tarl neustaedter stratus computer tarl sw stratus com marlboro mass disclaimer my employer is not responsible for my opinions i think that s the correct spelling i am looking for any information supplies that will allow do it yourselfers to take krillean pictures i m thinking that education suppliers for schools might have a appartus for sale but i don t know any of the companies any info is greatly appreciated in case you don t know krillean photography to the best of my knowledge involves taking pictures of an most of the time organic object between charged plates the picture will show energy patterns or spikes around the object photographed and depending on what type of object it is the spikes or energy patterns will vary one might extrapolate here and say that this proves that every object within the universe as we know it has its own energy signature to construct a kirlian device find a copy of handbook of psychic discoveries by sheila ostrander and lynn schroeder library of congress it describes the necessary equipment and suppliers for the tesla coil or alternatives the copper plate and setup i used a pack of sx film and removed a single pack in a dark room then made the exposure put it back in the film pack and ran it out through the rollers of the camera forinstant developing and very high quality it is a good way to experience what kirlian photography is really and what it is not as you know all ready it is the pattern in the bioplasmic energy fieldthat is significant variations caused by exposure time distance from the plate or pressure on the plate or variations in the photo materials are not important hard copy mail mark c high p o box parowan ut
sci.med	candida yeast bloom fact or fiction i can not believe the way this thread on candida yeast has progressed steve dyer and i have been exchanging words over the same topic in sci med nutrition when he displayed his typical reserve and attacked a women poster for being treated by a liscenced physician for a disease that did not exist calling this physician a quack was reprehensible steve and i see that you and some of the others are doing it here as well let me tell you who the quacks really are these are the physicans who have no idea how the human body interacts with it s environment and how that balance can be altered by diet and antibiotics these are the physicians who dismiss their patients with difficult symptomatology and make them go from doctor to doctor to find relief like elaine in sci med nutrition and then when they find one that solves their problem the rest start yelling quack could it just be professional jealousy i couldn t help elaine or jon but somebody else did could they know more than me no way they must be a quack i ve been teaching a human nutrition course for medical students for over ten years now and guess who the most receptive students are those that were raised on farms and saw first hand the effect of diet on the health of their farm animals and those students who had made a dramatic diet change prior to entering medical school switched to the vegan diet typically this is about of my class of students those not interested in nutrition either tune me out or just stop coming to class that s okay because i know that some of what i m teaching is going to stick and there will be at least a few enlightened physicians practicing in the u s it s really too bad that most u s medical schools don t cover nutrition because if they did candida would not be viewed as a non disease by so many in the medical profession in animal husbandry an animal is reinnoculated with good bacteria after antibiotics are stopped medicine has decided that since humans do not have a ruminant stomach no such reinnoculation with good bacteria is needed after coming off a braod spectrum antibiotic humans have all kinds of different organisms living in the gi system mouth stomach small and large intestine sinuses vagina and on the skin these are nonpathogenic because they do not cause disease in people unless the immune system is compromised they are also called nonpathogens because unlike the pathogenic organisms that cause human disease they do not produce toxins as they live out their merry existence in and on our body but any of these organisms will be considered pathogenic if it manages to take up residence within the body a poor mucus membrane barrier can let this happen and vitamin a is mainly responsible for setting up this barrier steve got real upset with elaine s doctor because he was using anti fungals and vitamin a for her gi problems if steve really understoood what vitamin a does in the body he would not or at least should not be calling elaine s doctor a quack here is a brief primer on yeast yeast infections as they are commonly called are not truely caused by yeasts the most common organism responsible for this type of infection is candida albicans or monilia which is actually a yeast like fungus an infection caused by this organism is called candidiasis candidiasis is a very rare occurance because like an e coli infection it requires that the host immune system be severly depressed candida is frequently found on the skin and all of the mucous membranes of normal healthy people and it rarely becomes a problem unless some predisposing factor is present such as a high blood glucose level diabetes or an oral course of antibiotics has been used in diabetics their secretions contain much higher amounts of glucose candida unlike bacteria is very limited in it s food fuel selection without glucose it can not grow it just barely survives if it gets access to a lot of glucose it blooms and over rides the other organisms living with it in the sinuses gi tract or vagina in diabetics skin lesions can also foster a good bloom site for these little buggers the bloom is usually just a minor irritant in most people but some people do really develop a bad inflammatory process at the mucus membrane or skin bloom site whether this is an allergic like reaction to the candida or not isn t certain when the bloom is in the vagina or on the skin it can be easliy seen and some doctors do then try to treat it if it s internal only symptoms can be used and these symptoms are pretty nondiscript candida is kept in check in most people by the normal bacterial flora in the sinuses the gi tract mouth stomach and intestines and in the vaginal tract which compete with it for food the human immune system ususally does not bother itself with these nonpathogenic organisms unless they broach the mucus membrane barrier if they do an inflammatory response will be set up most americans are not getting enough vitamin a from their diets about of all american s die with less vitamin a than they were born with u s autopsy studies while this low level of vitamin a does not cause pathology blindness it does impair the mucus membrane barrier system this would then be a predisposing factor for a strong inflammatory response after a candida bloom while diabetics can suffer from a candida bloom the most common cause of this type of bloom is the use of broad spectrum antibiotics which knock down many different kinds of bacteria in the body and remove the main competition for candida as far as food is concerned while drugs are available to handle candida many patients find that their doctor will not use them unless there is evidence of a systemic infection the toxicity of the anti fungal drugs does warrant some caution but if the gi or sinus inflammation is suspected to be candida and recent use of a broad spectrum antibiotic is the smoking gun then anti fungal use should be approrpriate just as the anti fungal creams are an appropriate treatment for recurring vaginal yeast infections in spite of what mr steve dyer says but even in patients being given the anti fungals the irritation caused by the excessive candida bloom in the sinus gi tract or the vagina tends to return after drug treatment is discontinued unless the underlying cause of the problem is addressed lack of a good bacterial flora in the body and or poor mucus membrane barrier lactobacillus acidophilus is the most effective therapy for candida overgrowth from it s name it is an acid loving organism and it sets up an acidic condition were it grows candida can not grow very well in an acidic environment in the vagina l acidophilius is the predominate bacteria unless you are hit with broad spectrum antibiotics in the gi system the ano rectal region seems to be a particularly good reservoir for candida and the use of pantyhose by many women creates a very favorable environment around the rectum for transfer through moisture and humidity of candida to the vaginal tract one of the most effctive ways to minimmize this transfer is to wear undyed cotton underwear if the bloom occurs in the anal area the burning swelling pain and even blood discharge make many patients think that they have hemorroids if the bloom manages to move further up the gi tract very diffuse symptomatology occurs abdominal discomfort and blood in the stool this positive stool for occult blood is what sent elaine to her family doctor in the first place after extensive testing he told her that there was nothing wrong but her gut still hurt on to another doctor and so on richard kaplan has told me throiugh e mail that he considers occult blood tests in stool specimens to be a waste of time and money because of the very large number of false positives candida blooms guys if my gut hurt me on a constant basis i would want it fixed yes it s nice to know that i don t have colon cancer but what then is causing my distress when i finally find a doctor who treats me and gets me better steve dyer calls him a quack candida prefers a slightly alkaline environment while bacteria tend to prefer a slightly acidic environment the vagina becomes alkaline during a woman s period and this is often when candida blooms in the vagina vinegar and water douches are the best way of dealing with vaginal problems many women have also gotten relief from the introduction of lactobacillus directly into the vaginal tract i would want to be sure of the purity of the product before trying this my wife had this vagina problem after going on birth control pills and searched for over a year until she found a gynocologist who solved the problem rather than just writting scripts for anti fungal creams this was a woman gynocologist who had had the same problem recurring vaginal yeast infections this m d did some digging and came up with an acetic acid and l acidophilis douche which she used in your office to keep it sterile after three treatments sex returned to our marraige i have often wondered what an m d with chronic gi distress or sinus problems would do about the problem that he tells his patients is a non existent syndrome the nonpathogenic bacteria l acidophilus is an acid producing bacteria which is the most common bacteria found in the vaginal tract of healthy women if taken orally it can also become a major bacteria in the gut through aresol sprays it has also been used to innoculate the sinus membranes but before this innoculation occurs the mucus membrane barrier system needs to be strengthened this is accomplished by vitamin a vitamin c and some of the b complex vitamins diet surveys repeatedly show that americans are not getting enough b and folate these are probably the segement of the population that will have the greatest problem with this non existent disorder candida blooms after antibiotic therapy some of the above material was obtained from natural healing by mark bricklin published by rodale press as well as notes from my human nutrition course i will be posting a discussion of vitamin a sometime in the future along with reference citings to point out the extremely important role that vitamin a plays in the mucus membrane defense system in the body and why vitamin a should be effective in dealing with candida blooms another effective dietary treatment is to restrict carbohydrate intake during the treatment phase this is especially important if the gi system is involved if candida can not get glucose it s not going to out grow the bacteria and you then give bacteria which can use amino acids and fatty acids for energy a chance to take over and keep the candida in check once carbohydrate is returned to the gut if steve and some of the other nay sayers want to jump all over this post fine i jumped all over steve in sci med nutrition because he verbably accosted a poster who was seeking advice about her doctor s use of vitamin a and anti fungals for a candida bloom in her gut people seeking advice from newsnet should not be treated this way those of us giving of our time and knowledge can slug it out to our heart s content if you saved your venom for me steve and left the helpless posters who are timidly seeking help alone i wouldn t have a problem with your behavior martin banschbach ph d professor of biochemistry and chairman department of biochemistry and microbiology osu college of osteopathic medicine west th st tulsa ok without discourse there is no remembering without remembering there is no learning without learning there is only ignorance
sci.med	m contagiosem i was wondering if anyone had any information about molluscous contagiosem i acquired it and fortunately got rid of it but the question still lingers in my mind where did it come from the little bit of info that i have received about it in the past states that it can be transmitted sexually but also occurs in small children on the hands feet and genitalia any information will be greatly appreciated i grow old i grow old i shall wear my trousers rolled t s eliot
sci.med	re help for kidney stones in article apr wvnvms wvnet edu pk wvnvms wvnet edu writes my girlfriend is in pain from kidney stones she says that because she has no medical insurance she cannot get them removed my question is there any way she can treat them herself or at least mitigate their effects any help is deeply appreciated advice referral to literature etc thank you dave carvell pk wvnvms wvnet edu first let me offer you my condolences i ve had kidney stones times and i know the pain she is going through first it is best that she see a doctor however every time i had kidney stones i saw my doctor and the only thing they did was to prescribe some pain killers and medication for a urinary tract infection the pain killers did nothing for me kidney stones are extremely painful my stones were judged passable so we just waited it out however the last one took days to pass not fun anyway if she absolutely won t see a doctor i suggest drinking lots of fluids and perhaps an over the counter sleeping pill but i do highly suggest seeing a doctor kidney stones are not something to fool around with she should be x rayed to make sure there is not a serious problem steve
sci.med	re diet for crohn s ibd in article uabdpo dpo uab edu spam dom uab edu uabdpo dpo uab edu gila stephen holland writes in article r g finne ceti cs unc edu jge cs unc edu john eyles wrote a friend has what is apparently a fairly minor case of crohn s disease but she can t seem to eat certain foods such as fresh vegetables without discomfort and of course she wants to avoid a recurrence her question is are there any nutritionists who specialize in the problems of people with crohn s disease if she is having problems with fresh vegetables the guess is that there is some obstruction of the intestine without knowing more it is not possible to say whether the obstruction is permanent due to scarring or temporary due to swelling of inflammed intestine in general there are no dietary limitations in patients with crohn s except as they relate to obstruction there is no evidence that any foods will bring on recurrence of crohn s interesting statements simply because i have been told otherwise i m certainly not questioning steve s claims as for one i am not a doctor and i agree that foods don t bring on the recurrence of crohn s but inflammation can be either mildly or drastically enhanced due to food having had one major obstruction resulting in resection is that a good enough caveat i was told that a low residue diet is called for basically the idea is that if there is inflammation of the gut which may not be realized by the patient any residue in the system can be caught in the folds of inflammation and constantly irritate thus exacerbating the problem therefore anything that doesn t digest completely by the point of common inflammation should be avoided with what i ve been told is typical crohn s of the terminal ileum my diet should be low residue consisting of completely out never again items o corn kernel husk doesn t digest most of us know this o popcorn same o dried dehydrated fruit and fruit skins o nuts very tough when it comes to giving up some fudge discouraged greatly o raw vegetables too fibrous o wheat and raw grain breads o exotic lettuce iceberg is ok since it s apparently mostly water o greens turnip mustard kale etc o little seeds like sesame try getting an arby s without it o long grain and wild rice husky o beans you ll generate enough gas alone without them o basically anything that requires heavy digestive processing i was told that the more processed the food the better rather ironic in this day and age the whole point is preventative you want to give your system as little chance to inflame as possible i was told that among the numerous things that were heavily discouraged i only listed a few to try the ones i wanted and see how i felt if it s bad don t do it again remember though that this was while i was in remission for veggies cook the daylights out of them i prefer steaming i think it s cooks more thoroughly you re mileage may vary as with anything else check with your doctor don t just take my word but this is the info i ve been given and it may be a starting point for discussion good luck spenser s spenser aden lockheed engineering and sciences co nasa flight data and evaluation office johnson space center houston spenser fudd jsc nasa gov internet opinions herein are mine alone aden vf jsc nasa gov if above bounces eschew obfuscation unknown
sci.med	re seizures infantile spasms in article apr dbased nuo dec com dufault lftfld enet dec com md writes the reason i m posting this article to this newsgroup is to gather any information about this disorder from anyone who might have recently been e ffected by it from being associated with it or actually having this disorder and help me find out where i can access any medical literature associated with seizures over the internet i tried to e mail you but it bounced back please e mail me and i will give you someone s name who might be very helpful you might also post your message to misc kids tamara sastls mvs sas com
sci.med	re getting aids from acupuncture needles matthews oswego edu harry matthews writes i had electrical pulse nerve testing done a while back the needles were taken from a dirty drawer in an instrument cart and were most certainly not sterile or even clean for that matter more than likely they were fresh from the previous patient i was concerned but i kept my mouth shut i probably should have raised hell could you describe in more detail the above procedure i ve never heard about it and yes if they pierced you with the needles you probably should have protested euclid euclid k standard disclaimers apply it is a bit ironic that we need the wave model of light to understand the propagation of light only through that part of the system where it leaves no trace hudson nelson university physics
sci.med	re foreskin troubles in article apr radford vak ed edu mmatusev radford vak ed edu melissa n matusevich writes what can be done short of circumcision for an adult male whose foreskin will not retract melissa there is a simpler procedure called a dorsal slit that is really the first step of the usual circumcision it is simpler and quicker but the pain is about the same as circumcision after the anesthetic wears off and the aesthetic result post healing is not as good see your friendly urologist for more details len howard
sci.med	re quality control in medicine in article u uicvm uic edu u uicvm uic edu writes does anybody know of any information regarding the implementaion of total quality management quality control quality assurance in the delivery of health care service i would appreciate any information if there is enough interest i will post the responses thank you abhin singla ms bioe mba md president ac medcomp inc dr singla you might contact kaiser health plan either in the area closest to you or at the central office in oakland ca we have been doing qa qos concurrent ur and tqm for some time now in the hawaii region and i suspect it is nationwide in the system len howard md
sci.med	request gyro souvlaki sauce hi all would anyone out there in net land happen to have an authentic sure fire way of making this great sauce that is used to adorn gyro s and souvlaki thanks tron e mail tron locus com vidi vici veni
sci.med	seizure information infant here is the tollfree hotline for the epilepsy foundation of america efa they will be able to answer your questions and send you information and references on seizure types medication etc they can also give you references for a pediatric neorologist in your area also ask for the number of your local foundation who can put you in touch with a parent support group and social workers good luck
sci.med	re opinions on allergy hay fever shots i had allergy shots for about four years starting as a sophomore in high school before that i used to get bloody noses nighttime asthma attacks and eyes so itchy i couldn t get to sleep after about months on the shots most of those symptoms were gone and they haven t come back i stopped getting the shots due more to laziness than planning in college my allergies got a little worse after that but are still nowhere near as bad as they used to be so yes the shots do work
sci.med	re arythmia in article apr vaxc stevens tech edu u averba vaxc stevens tech edu writes doctors said that he could die from it and the medication caused is it that serious my ekg often comes back with a few irregular beats another question is a low blood potassium level very bad my doctor seems concerned but she tends to worry too much in general alexis perry the less i want the more i get perry husc harvard edu make me chaste but not just yet eliot house box it s a promise or a lie i ll repent before i die work have you lost your mind ren sting nobody really admits to sharing my opinions last of all harvard college
sci.med	re altitude adjustment in article mdavcr mda ca vida mdavcr mda ca vida morkunas writes i live at sea level and am called upon to travel to high altitude cities quite frequently on business the cities in question are at to feet of altitude one of them especially is very polluted often i feel faint the first two or three days i feel lightheaded and my heart seems to pound a lot more than at sea level also it is very dry in these cities so i will tend to drink a lot of water and keep away from dehydrating drinks such as those containing caffeine or alcohol thing is i still have symptoms how can i ensure that my short trips there no i don t usually have a week to acclimatize are as comfortable as possible is there something else that i could do i saw a lifetime medical television show a few months back on travel medicine it briefly mentioned some drugs which when started two or three days before getting to altitude could assist in acclimitazation unfortunately all that i can recall is that the drug stimulated breathing at night i don t know if that makes sense it seems to me that the new drug which stimulates red blood cell production would be a more logical approach erythropoiten sp alas i didn t record the program but wish i had since i live at over ft and my mother gets sick when visiting please let me know if you get more informative responses phone martin e lewitt my opinions are domain lewitt ncube com p o box my own not my sandia melewitt cs sandia gov sandia park nm employer s
sci.med	re good grief was re candida albicans what is it dyer spdcc com steve dyer writes snort ah there go my sinuses again oh wow a classic textbook hey they laughed at einstein too yeah i ll bet tomorrow the world listen uncontrolled studies like this are worthless i m sure you are you sound like the typical hysteric hypochondriac who responds to miracle cures yeah it makes sense to me so of course it should be taken seriously snort yeah it sounds reasonable to me oh really what tests immune compromised my ass more like credulous malingerer this is a psychiatric syndrome you know it s a shame that a drug like itraconazole is being misused in this way it s ridiculously expensive and potentially toxic the trouble is that it isn t toxic enough so it gets abused by quacks the only good thing about nystatin is that it s relatively cheap and when taken orally non toxic but oral nystatin is without any systemic effect so unless it were given iv it would be without any effect on your sinuses i wish these quacks would first use iv nystatin or amphotericin b on people like you that would solve the yeast problem once and for all perhaps a little haldol would go a long way towards ameliorating your symptoms are you paying for this treatment out of your own pocket i d hate to think my insurance premiums are going towards this steve take a look at what you are saying i don t see one construvtive word here if you don t have anything constructive to add why waste the bandwidth yeah sure flame me for doing it myself is this sci med or alt flame like it or not medical science does not know categorically everything about everything i m not flaming your knowledge just asking you to sit back and ask yourself what if minds are like parachutes they only function when they are open oh and if you do want to flame me or anyone else how about using email rob who doesn t claim any relevant qualifications just interest rob geraghty things are important to me robg citr uq oz au the gift of love the joy of life citr and the making of music in all its forms
sci.med	nebulisers and particle size hi we are just completing a project on nebuliser performance and have a wealth of data on particle size and output which we are going to use to adjudicate a contract next week although the output data is easy for us to present there seems to be little concensus on the optimum diameter of the nebulised droplets for straightforward inhalation therapy eg for asthmatics some say that the droplets must be smaller than microns whilst others say that if they are too small they will not be effective anyone up on this topic who could summarise the current status cheers pete pete phillips deputy director surgical materials testing lab bridgend general hospital s wales pete smtl demon co uk the four horse oppressors of the apocalypse were nutritional deprivation state of belligerency widespread transmittable condition and terminal inconvenience official politically correct dictionary
sci.med	re diet for crohn s ibd in article r g finne ceti cs unc edu jge cs unc edu john eyles writes a friend has what is apparently a fairly minor case of crohn s disease but she can t seem to eat certain foods such as fresh vegetables without discomfort and of course she wants to avoid a recurrence her question is are there any nutritionists who specialize in the problems of people with crohn s disease i saw the suggestion of lipoxygnase inhibitors like tea and turmeric thanks in advance john eyles all your friend really has to do is find a registered dietician rd while most work in hospitals and clinics many major cities will have rd s who are in private practice so to speak many physicans will refer their patients with crohn s disease to rd s for dietary help if you can get your friend s physician to make a referral medical insurance should pay for the rd s services just like the services of a physical therapist the better medical insurance plans will cover this but even if your friend s plan doesn t it would be well worth the cost to get on a good diet to control the intestinal discomfort and help the intestinal lining heal crohn s disease is an inflammatory disease of the intestinal lining and lipoxygenase inhibitors may help by decreasing leukotriene formation but i m not aware of tea or turmeric containing lipoxygenase inhibitors for bad inflammation steroids are used but for a mild case the side effects are not worth the small benefit gained by steroid use upjohn is developing a new lipoxygenase inhibitor that should greatly help deal with inflammatory diseases but it s not available yet marty b
sci.med	re help me inject the best way of self injection is to use the right size needle and choose the correct spot for streptomycin usually given intra muscularly use a thin needle guage and select a spot on the upper outer thigh no major nerves or blood vessels there clean the area with antiseptic before injection and after make sure to inject deeply a different kind of pain is felt when the needle enters the muscle contrasted to the prick when it pierces the skin ps try to go to a doctor self treatment and self injection should be avoided as far as possible
sci.med	great post was re candida yeast bloom very long great post martin very informative well balanced and humanitarian without neglecting the need for scientific rigor cross posted to alt psychology personality since some personality typing will be discussed at the beginning note i ve set all followups to sci med since most of my comments are more sci med oriented and i m sure most of the replies if any will be med related in article banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes i can not believe the way this thread on candida yeast has progressed steve dyer and i have been exchanging words over the same topic in sci med nutrition when he displayed his typical reserve and attacked a woman poster for being treated by a licenced physician for a disease that did not exist calling this physician a quack was reprehensible steve and i see that you and some of the others are doing it here as well they are just responding in their natural way hyper choleric syndrome hcs oops that is not a recognized illness in the psychological community better not say that since it therefore must not and never will exist actually it is fascinating that a disproportionate number of physicians will type out as nt for those not familiar with the myers briggs system just e mail me and i ll send a summary file to you in the general population nt s comprise only about of the population but among physicians it is much much higher i don t know the exact percentage any help here a p p er s one driving characteristic of an nt especially an ntj is their obvious choleric behavior driver type a etc the extreme emotional need to control to lead and or to be the best or the most competent if they are also extroverted they are best described as field marshalls this trait is very valuable and essential in our society we need people who want to lead to strive to overcome the elements to seek and thirst for knowledge to raise the level of competency etc the great successes in science and technology are in large part due to the vision an n trait and scientifically minded approach t trait of the nt personality of course the other types and temperaments have their own positive contributions as well however when the nt person has self image challenges the dark side of this personality type usually comes out which should be obvious to all a physician who is a strong nt and who has not learned to temper their temperament will be extremely business like lack of empathy or feeling and is very compelled to have total control over their patient the patient must be obedient to their diagnosis and prescription without question i ve known many m d s of this temperament and suffice to say i don t oblige them with a followup visit no matter how competent i think they are and they usually are very competent from a knowledge viewpoint since that is an extreme drive of theirs to know the most to know it all maybe we need more nf doctor s enough on this subject let s move on to candida bloom let me tell you who the quacks really are these are the physicans who have no idea how the human body interacts with it s environment and how that balance can be altered by diet and antibiotics could it just be professional jealousy i couldn t help elaine or jon but somebody else did you ve helped me already by your post of course i believe that i have been misdiagnosed on the net as suffering from anal retentivitis but being the phlegmatic i am maybe i was just a little too harsh on a few people myself in past posts let s all try to raise the level of this discussion above the level of anal effluent humans have all kinds of different organisms living in the gi system mouth stomach small and large intestine sinuses vagina and on the skin these are nonpathogenic because they do not cause disease in people unless the immune system is compromised they are also called nonpathogens because unlike the pathogenic organisms that cause human disease they do not produce toxins as they live out their merry existence in and on our body but any of these organisms will be considered pathogenic if it manages to take up residence within the body a poor mucus membrane barrier can let this happen and vitamin a is mainly responsible for setting up this barrier in my well described situation in prior posts i definitely was immune stressed blood tests showed my vitamin a levels were very low my sinuses were a mess no doubt the mucosal lining and the cilia were heavily damaged i also was on antibiotics times in years in the end even two weeks of ceftin did not work and i had confirmed diagnoses of a chronic bacterial infection of the sinuses via cat scans mucus color won t get into the details and other symptoms three very traditional ent s made this diagnosis i did not have any cultures done however because of the difficulty of doing this right and because my other symptoms clearly showed a bacterial infection enough of this background provided to help you understand where i was when i make comments about my sporanox anti fungal therapy below the first question i have is this can fungus penetrate a little way into poor mucus membrane tissue maybe via hyphae thus causing symptoms without being considered systemic in the classic sense it is sort of an inbetween infection steve got real upset with elaine s doctor because he was using anti fungals and vitamin a for her gi problems if steve really understoood what vitamin a does in the body he would not or at least should not be calling elaine s doctor a quack i was concerned too because of the toxicity of vitamin a my doctor after my blood tests put me on iu of vitamin a for one week only then dropped it down to iu for the next couple of weeks i also received zinc and other supplementation since all of these interrelate in fairly complex ways as my doctor explained he s one of those evil orthomolecular specialists i had a blood test three weeks later and vitamin a was normal he then stopped me on all vitamin a except for some in a multi vitamin supplement and made sure that i maintain a iu day of beta carotene call me carrot face hopefully elaine s doctor will take a similar careful approach and to all supplements i m even reevaluating some supplements i m taking for example niacin in fairly large dosages gram day which steve dyer had good information about on sci med nutrition if niacin only has second order improvement in symptomatic relief of my sinus allergies then it probably is not worth taking such a large dose long term and risking liver damage survives if it gets access to a lot of glucose it blooms and over rides the other organisms living with it in the sinuses gi tract or vagina in though i do now believe based on my successful therapy with sporanox that i definitely had some excessive growth of fungus unknown species in my sinuses i still want to ask the question have there been any studies that demonstrate candida blooms in the sinuses with associated sinus irritation sinusitis rhinitis my sinus irritation reduced significantly after one week of sporanox and no other new treatments were implemented during this time i did not have any noticeable gi track problems before starting on sporanox but some for a few days after which then went away considered normal btw my doctor dug out one of his medical reference books sorry can t remember which one and found an obscure comment dating back into the s which stated that people can develop contained non lethal or non serious aspergillis infestations aspergiliosis of the sinuses leading to sinus inflammation symptoms i ll have to dig out that reference again since it is relevant to this discussion some people do really develop a bad inflammatory process at the mucus membrane or skin bloom site whether this is an allergic like reaction to the candida or not isn t certain my doctor tested me i believe a rast or rast similar test for allergic response to specificially candida albicans and i showed a strong positive another question would everybody show the same strong positive so this test is essentially useless and assuming it is true that candida can grow part way into the mucus membrane tissue and the concentration exceeds a threshold amount could not a person who tests as having an allergy to candida definitely develop allergic symptoms such as mucus membrane irritation due to the body s allergic response as i said in an earlier post one does not need to be a rocket scientist or have a m d degree or a ph d in biochemistry to see the plausibility of this hypothesis btw and i ll repost this again dr ivker in his book sinus survival has routinely given before anything else nizoral a pre sporanox systemic anti fungal not as safe and not as good as sporanox to his new chronic sinusitis patients if they have been on antibiotics four or more times in the last two years he claims that out of or so patients well over notice some relief of sinus inflammation and other symptoms but it doesn t cure it by any means implying the so called yeast fungus infection is not the primary cause but a later complication he s also found that nystatin whether taken internally or put into a sinus spray does not help this implies of course assuming that excessive yeast fungus bloom is aggravating the sinus inflammation that the yeast fungus has grown partway into the tissue since nystatin will not kill yeast fungus other than by direct contact it is not absorbed into the blood stream again i admit lots of ifs and implies which doesn t please the hard core nt who has to have the double blind study or it s a non issue but one has to start with some plausible hypothesis explanation a strawman if you will if it s internal only symptoms can be used and these symptoms are pretty nondescript this brings up an interesting observation used by those who will deny and reject any and all aspects of the yeast hypothesis until the appropriate studies are done and that is if you can t observe or culture the yeast bloom in the gut or sinus then there s no way to diagnose or even recognize the disease and i know they realize that it is virtually impossible to test for candida overbloom in any part of the body that cannot be easily observed since candida is everywhere in the body it s a real catch another catch those who totally reject the yeast hypothesis say that no studies have been done actually studies have been done but if it s not up to a certain standard then it is from their perspective a non study which should not even be considered i agree that the appropriate studies should be done and that will take big to do it right however in order to convince the funding agencies in these austere times to open their wallets you literally have to give them evidence and the only acceptable evidence to compete with other proposals is paradoxically to do almost the exact study needed funding that is you have to do of the study before you even get funding as a scientist at a national lab i m very aware of this for the smaller funded projects i m afraid that even if dr ivker and other doctors got together pooled their practice s case histories and anecdotes into a compelling picture and approach the funding agencies they would get nowhere even if they were able to publish their statistical results it is obvious from the comments by some of the doctors here is that they have decided excessive yeast colonization in the gut or sinuses leading to noticeable non lethal symptoms does not exist and is not even a tenable hypothesis so any amount of case histories or compiled anecdotal evidence to the contrary will never change their mind and not only that they would also oppose the needed studies because in their minds it s a done issue excessive yeast growth leading to diffuse allergic symptoms does not will not and cannot exist period kind of tough to dialog with those who hold such a viewpoint kind of reminds me of lister candida is kept in check in most people by the normal bacterial flora in the sinuses the gi tract mouth stomach and intestines and in the vaginal tract which compete with it for food the human immune system ususally does not bother itself with these nonpathogenic organisms unless they broach the mucus membrane barrier if they do an inflammatory response will be set up most americans are not getting enough vitamin a from their diets about of all american s die with less vitamin a than they were born with u s autopsy studies while this low level of vitamin a does not cause pathology blindness it does impair the mucus membrane barrier system this would then be a predisposing factor for a strong inflammatory response after a candida bloom aren t there also other nutrients necessary to the proper working of the sinus mucus membranes and cilia while diabetics can suffer from a candida bloom the most common cause of this type of bloom is the use of broad spectrum antibiotics which knock down many different kinds of bacteria in the body and remove the main competition for candida as far as food is concerned while drugs are available to handle candida many patients find that their doctor will not use them unless there is evidence of a systemic infection the toxicity of the anti fungal drugs does warrant some caution but if the gi or sinus inflammation is suspected to be candida and recent use of a broad spectrum antibiotic is the smoking gun then anti fungal use should be approrpriate just as the anti fungal creams are an appropriate treatment for recurring vaginal yeast infections in spite of what mr steve dyer says again the evidence from mycological studies indicate that many yeast fungus species can grow hyphae roots into deep tissue similar to mold growing in bread you can continue to kill the surface such as nystatin does but you can t kill that which is deeper in the tissue without using a systemic anti fungal such as itraconazole sporanox or some of the older ones such as nizoral which are more toxic and not as effective this is why as has been pointed out by recent studies sent to me by a doctor i ve been in e mail contact with thanks that nystatin is not effective in the long term treatment of gi tract candidiasis it s like trying to weed a garden by cutting off what s above the ground but leaving the roots ready to come out again once you walk away the question is whether a contained candida bloom can partially grow into tissue through the mucus membranes causing some types of symptoms in susceptible people e g allergy without becoming systemic in the classical sense of the word something in between strictly an excessive bloom not causing any problems and the full blown systemic infection that is potentially lethal in the gi system the ano rectal region seems to be a particularly good reservoir for candida and the use of pantyhose by many women creates a very favorable environment around the rectum for transfer through moisture and humidity of candida to the vaginal tract one of the most effctive ways to minimmize this transfer is to wear undyed cotton underwear also if one is an anal retentive like i ve been diagnosed in a prior post that can also provide more sites for excessive candida growth if the bloom occurs in the anal area the burning swelling pain and even blood discharge make many patients think that they have hemorroids if the bloom manages to move further up the gi tract very diffuse symptomatology occurs abdominal discomfort and blood in the stool this positive stool for occult blood is what sent elaine to her family doctor in the first place after extensive testing he told her that there was nothing wrong but her gut still hurt on to another doctor and so on richard kaplan has told me throiugh e mail that he considers occult blood tests in stool specimens to be a waste of time and money because of the very large number of false positives candida blooms guys if my gut hurt me on a constant basis i would want it fixed yes it s nice to know that i don t have colon cancer but what then is causing my distress when i finally find a doctor who treats me and gets me better steve dyer calls him a quack as i ve said in private e mail there are flaws in our current medical system that make it difficult or even impossible for a physician to attempt alternative therapies after the approved proven accepted therapies don t work for example i went to three ent s who all said that i will just have to live with my acute chronic sinusitis after the ab s failed they did mention surgery to open up the ostia but my ostia weren t plugged and it would not get to the root cause of my condition after three months of aggressive and fairly non standard therapy sporanox body nutrient level monitoring and equalization vitamin c lentinen echinacea etc my health has vastly improved to where i was two years ago before my health greatly deteriorated of course skeptics would say that maybe if i did nothing i would have improved anyway but that view is stretching things quite far because of the experience of the three ent s i saw who said that i d just have to live with it i m confident i will reach what one could call a total cure the anti fungal program i undertook was one necessary step in that direction because of my overuse of ab s for the last four years note for those having sinus problems may i suggest the book by dr ivker i mention above be sure to get the revised edition i have often wondered what an m d with chronic gi distress or sinus problems would do about the problem that he tells his patients is a non existent syndrome dr ivker started off having chronic and severe sinus problems and his visits to several ent s totally floored him when they said you ll just have to live with it he spent several years trying everything standard and non standard until he was essentially cured of chronic sinusitis he now shares his approach in his book and i can honestly say that i am on the road to recovery following some parts of it his one recommendation to take a systemic anti fungal at the beginning of treatment if you have a history of anti biotic overuse has been proven to him time and time again in his own practice i m sure if i commented to him of the hard core beliefs of the anti yeast hypothesis posters that he would have definite things to say such as it s worked wonders for me in almost two thousand cases to put it mildly i also would not be surprised if he would say that they are the ones violating their moral obligations to help the patient maybe those doctors who are reading this who have a practice and are confronted by a patient having symptoms that could be due to the hypothetical yeast overgrowth e g they fit some of the profiles the pro yeast people have identified should consider anti fungal therapy if all other avenues have been exhausted remember theory and practice are two different things you cannot have one without the other they are synergistic if a doctor does something non standard yet produces noticeable symptomatic relief in over a thousand of his patients shouldn t you at least sit up and take notice maybe you ought to trust what he says and begin hypothesizing why it works instead of why it shouldn t work i m afraid a lot of doctors have become so enamored with scientific correctness that they are ignoring the patients they have sworn to help you have to do both both have to be balanced which we don t see from some of the posters to this group there comes a point when you just have to use a little common sense and maybe an empirical approach such as trying a good systemic anti fungal such as sporanox after having exhausted all the other avenues i was one of those who the traditional medical establishment was not able to help so i did the natural thing i went to a couple of doctor s who are somewhat outside this establishment and as a result i have found significant relief would it not be better if the traditional medical establishment can set up some kind of mechanism where any doctor without fear of being sued or having his license pulled can try experimental and unproven beyond a doubt therapies for his her patients that finally reach the point where all the accepted therapies are ineffective i d like to hear a doctor tell me well i ve tried all the therapies that are approved and accepted in this country and since they clearly don t work for you i now have the authority to use experimental unproven techniques that seem to have helped others i can t promise anything and there are some risks you will have to sign something saying you understand the experimental and possibly risky nature of these unproven therapies and i ll have to register your case at the state board anyway if my ent had suggested this to me i would ve jumped on this pronto instead of going to one of those doctors who for either altruistic reasons or for greed is practicing these alternative therapies with much risk to him her risk meaning losing their license and possibly to the patient such a mechanism would keep control in the more mainstream medicine and also provide valuable data that would essentially be free it also would be morally and ethically better than the current system by showing the compassion of the medical community to the patient that it s doing everything it can within reason to help the patient it is the lack of such a mechanism that is leading large numbers of people to try alternative therapies some of which seem to work like my case and others of which will never work at all true quackery i better get off my soapbox before this post reaches k in size if taken orally it can also become a major bacteria in the gut through aresol sprays it has also been used to innoculate the sinus membranes but before this innoculation occurs the mucus membrane barrier system needs to be strengthened this is accomplished by vitamin a vitamin c and some of the b complex vitamins diet surveys repeatedly show that americans are not getting enough b and folate these are probably the segement of the population that will have the greatest problem with this non existent disorder candida blooms after antibiotic therapy what dosage of b appears to be necessary to promote the healing and proper working of the mucos memebranes some of the above material was obtained from natural healing by mark bricklin published by rodale press as well as notes from my human nutrition course i will be posting a discussion of vitamin a sometime in the future along with reference citings to point out the extremely important role that vitamin a plays in the mucus membrane defense system in the body and why vitamin a should be effective in dealing with candida blooms another effective dietary treatment is to restrict carbohydrate intake during the treatment phase this is especially important if the gi system is involved if candida can not get glucose it s not going to out grow the bacteria and you then give bacteria which can use amino acids and fatty acids for energy a chance to take over and keep the candida in check once carbohydrate is returned to the gut i d like to see the role of complex carbohydrates such as starch if steve and some of the other nay sayers want to jump all over this post fine i jumped all over steve in sci med nutrition because he verbably accosted a poster who was seeking advice about her doctor s use of vitamin a and anti fungals for a candida bloom in her gut people seeking advice from newsnet should not be treated this way those of us giving of our time and knowledge can slug it out to our heart s content if you saved your venom for me steve and left the helpless posters who are timidly seeking help alone i wouldn t have a problem with your behavior brave soul you are the venom on usenet can be quite toxic unless one develops an immunity to it one year ago my phlegmatic self would have backed down right away from an attack of cholericitis but my immune system and my computer system have been hardened from gradual desensitization i now kind of like being called anal retentive it has a nice ring to it i also was very impressed by how it just flowed into the post truly classic worthy of a blue or maybe brown ribbon i might even cross post it to alt best of internet hmmm martin banschbach ph d professor of biochemistry and chairman department of biochemistry and microbiology osu college of osteopathic medicine thanks again for a great and informative post i hope others who have researched this area and are lurking in the background will post their thoughts as well no matter their views on this subject jon noring charter member infj club if you re dying to know what infj means be brave e mail me i ll send info jon noring noring netcom com jkn international ip fred s gourmet chocolate carlton place phone chips world s best livermore ca v mail who are you read alt psychology personality that s where the action is
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition bruce data io com bruce reynolds writes anecedotal evidence is worthless even doctors who have been using a drug or treatment for years and who swear it is effective are often suprised at the results of clinical trials whether or not msg causes describable reportable documentable symptoms should be pretty simple to discover i tend to disagree i think anecdotal evidence provided there is a lot of it and it is fairly consistent will is very important first it points to the necessity of doing a study and second it at least says that the effects are all psychological or possibly allergy in this case as i ve pointed out before pyschological effects are no less real than other effects one person s make believe can easily be another person s reality using psychadelic drugs in a bizarre and twisted example the hallucinations one person experiences on an acid trip cannot be guaranteed to another person on an acid trip there is no clinical evidence that those effects are always going to happen anyhow that was a pretty lame example but hopefully i made my point it s all a matter of perception and as long as someone ingesting msg perceives it as causing bad effects then s he can definitely experience those affects on the other hand it could just be an allergy to the food it s in or something still anecdotal evidence is not worthless it s the stuff that leads to the study being done dan
sci.med	re arythmia alexis perry asked if low blood potassium could be dangerous yes zz
sci.med	re re help me inject from article apr vax oxford ac uk by krishnas vax oxford ac uk the best way of self injection is to use the right size needle and choose the correct spot for streptomycin usually given intra muscularly use a thin needle guage and select a spot on the upper outer thigh no major nerves or blood vessels there clean the area with antiseptic before injection and after make sure to inject deeply a different kind of pain is felt when the needle enters the muscle contrasted to the prick when it pierces the skin ps try to go to a doctor self treatment and self injection should be avoided as far as possible the areas that are least likely to hurt are where you have a little fat i inject on my legs and gut and prefer the gut i can stick it in at a degree angle and barely feel it i m not fat just have a little gut my legs however are muscular and i have to pinch to get anything and then i inject at about a degree angle and it still hurts the rate of absorbtion differs for subcutaneous and muscular injections however so if it s a daily thing it would be best not to switch places every day to keep consistencey although some suggest switch legs or sides of the stomach for each shot to prevent irritation when you clean the spot off with an alcohol prep wait for it to dry somewhat or you may get the alcohol in the puncture and of course that doesn t feel good a way to prevent irratation is to mark the spot that you injected a good way to do this is use a little round bandage and put it over the spot this helps prevent you from injecting in the same spot and spacing the sites out accuartely about apart this is from experience so i hope it ll help you i have diabetes and have to take an injection every morning later david david hahn university of wisconsin milwaukee hahn csd csd uwm edu
sci.med	re food related seizures in article c uq b lrj toads pgh pa us geb cs pitt edu gordon banks writes in article bu edu dozonoff bu edu david ozonoff writes many of these cereals are corn based after your post i looked in the literature and located two articles that implicated corn contains tryptophan and seizures the idea is that corn in the diet might potentiate an already existing or latent seizure disorder not cause it check to see if the two kellog cereals are corn based i d be interested years ago when i was an intern an obese young woman was brought into the er comatose after having been reported to have grand mal seizures why attending a corn festival we pumped her stomach and obtained what seemed like a couple of liters of corn much of it intact kernals after a few hours she woke up and was fine i was tempted to sign her out as acute corn intoxication gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and how about contaminants on the corn e g aflatoxin michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
sci.med	re my new diet it works great in article c wc g eg toads pgh pa us geb cs pitt edu gordon banks writes in article apr omen uucp caf omen uucp chuck forsberg wa kgx writes can you provide a reference to substantiate that gaining back the lost weight does not constitute weight rebound until it exceeds the starting weight or is this oral tradition that is shared only among you obesity researchers annals of ny acad sci hmmm these don t look like references to me is passive aggressive behavior associated with weight rebound i purposefully left off the page numbers to encourage the reader to study the volumes mentioned and benefit therefrom good story chuck but it won t wash i have read the ny acad sci one and have it this am i couldn t find any reference to weight rebound i m not saying it isn t there but since you cited it it is your responsibility to show me where it is in there there is no index i suspect you overstepped your knowledge base as usual gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon it s on page about inches up from the bottom and an inch in from the right at least we know what some people haven t read and remembered chuck forsberg wa kgx tektronix reed omen caf author of ymodem zmodem professional yam zcomm and dsz omen technology inc the high reliability software v nw sauvie is rd portland or
sci.med	cholistasis sp fat free diet pregnancy hi i ve just returned from a visit with my ob gyn and i have a few concerns that maybe y all can help me with i ve been seeing her every weeks for the past few months i m at week and during the last visits i ve gained to pounds every weeks she said this was unacceptable over any week period as it stands i ve thus far gained pounds also she says that though i m at weeks the baby s size is weeks i think she mentioned inches for the top of the fundus when i was weeks the baby s size was weeks i must also add that i had an operation a few years ago for endometriosis and i ve had no problems with endometriosis but apparently it is causing me pain in my pelvic region during the pregnancy and i have a very difficult time moving and the doc has recommended i not walk or move unless i have to i have a little handicapped sticker for when i do need to go out anyway that s of the situation the other is that almost from the beginning of pregnancy i was getting sick throwing up about times a day and mostly it was bile that was being eliminated i told her about this i know this because i wasn t eating very much due to the nausea and could see the results well now i only get sick about once every weeks and it is still bile related but in addition i had begun to feel movement near my upper right abdomen just below the right breast usually when i was lying on my right side it began to get worse though because it started to hurt when i lay on my right side and then it hurt no matter what position i was in next i noticed that when i ate greasy or fatty foods i felt like my entire abdomen had turned to stone and the pain in the area got worse however if i ate sauerkraut or vinegar or something to cut the fat it wasn t as much of a problem so the doctor says i have cholistatis and that i should avoid fatty foods this makes sense and because i was already aware of what seemed to me this cause and effect relationship i have been avoiding these foods on my own but i m still able to eat foods with ricotta cheese for instance and other low fat foods but doc wants me to be on a non fat diet this means no meat except fish and chicken w o skin i do this anyway no nuts fried food cheese etc i am allowed skim milk she said i should avoid anything sweet e g bananas also i must only have one serving of something high in carbohydrates a day potatoes pasta rice she said i can t even cook vegetables in a little bit of oil and that i should eat vegetables raw or steamed i m concerned because i understand you need to have some fat in your diet to help in the digestive process and if i m not taking in fat is she expecting the baby will take it from my stores and why this restriction on carbohydrates if she s concerned about fat i m not clear how much of her recommendation is based on my weight gain and how much on cholistatis which i can t seem to find any information on she originally said that i should only gain pounds during the entire pregnancy since i was about lbs overweight when i started but my sister gained lbs during her pregnancy and she s taken it all off and hasn t had any problems she also asked if any members of my family were obese which none of them are anyway i think she is overly concerned about weight gain and feel like i m being punished by a severe diet she did want to see me again in one week so i think she the diet may be temporary for that one week what i want to know is how reasonable is this non fat diet i would understand if she had said low fat diet since i m trying that anyway even if she said really low fat diet i think she assumes i must be eating a high fat diet but really it is that because of the endometriosis and the operation i m not able to use the energy from the food i do eat any opinions info and experiences will be appreciated i m truly going stark raving mad trying to meet this new strict diet because fruits and vegetables go through my system in a few minutes and i ll end up having to eat constantly thus far i don t find any foods satisfying thanks g
sci.med	prk photo refractive keratostomy for those of you interested in the above procedure i am able to add the following facts this procedure is not done in philadelphia it is performed in maryland at johns hopkins for corrections between and and from to diopters i think are the units it is performed in new york city at manhattan eye and ear for corrections between and the magic words to use when requesting information on this is not prk they think you mean rk but the excimer laser study or protocol this will get you to the proper people barry d benowitz email bbenowit telesciences com pyrnj telesci bbenowit phone x snail telesciences co systems new albany rd moorestown nj
sci.med	re help for kidney stones isn t there a relatively new treatment for kidney stones involving a non invasive use of ultra sound where the patient is lowered into some sort of liquid when he she undergoes treatment i m sure i ve read about it somewhere if i remember it correctly it is a painless and effective treatment a couple of weeks ago i visited a hospital here in stockholm and saw big signs showing the way to the kidney stone chrusher mats winberg stockholm sweden
sci.med	re science and methodology was homeopathy tradition in article quqlginn q im u cs utexas edu turpin cs utexas edu russell turpin writes my definition is this science is the investigation of the empirical that avoids mistakes in reasoning and methodology discovered from previous work reading this definition i wonder when should you recognize something as being a mistake it seems to me that proponents of pseudo sciences might have their own ideas of what constitutes a mistake and which discoveries of such previous mistakes they accept kristoffer eriksson peridot konsult ab stallgatan s oerebro sweden phone e mail ske pkmab se fax or mail swip net kullmar pkmab ske
sci.med	re krillean photography todamhyp charles unlv edu brian m huey writes i think that s the correct spelling i am looking for any information supplies that will allow do it yourselfers to take krillean pictures i m thinking that education suppliers for schools might have a appartus for sale but i don t know any of the companies any info is greatly appreciated krillean photography involves taking pictures of minute decapods resident in the seas surrounding the antarctic or pictures taken by them perhaps bill from oz
sci.med	re request gyro souvlaki sauce in article apr locus com michael trofimoff tron fafnir la locus com writes would anyone out there in net land happen to have an authentic sure fire way of making this great sauce that is used to adorn gyro s and souvlaki i m not sure of the exact recipe but i m sure acidophilus is one of the major ingredients don mackie his opinions um anesthesiology will disavow
sci.med	what is intersection syndrome near the forearm wrist hi i went to the orthopedist on tuesday he diagnosed me as having intersection syndrome he prescribed feldene for me i want to know more about the disease and the drug thanks somesh
sci.med	french to english translation of medical terms dear netters i am not sure whether this is the right place to post my query but i thought there may be some bilingual physicians in this newsgroup that could help please excuse me for overloading the bandwidth i am trying to build a resource allocation program for managing a surgical operating unit in a hospital the user interface is in english however the terms of medical specialties i was given are in french i have no medical dictionary handy mine is a technical university i need to get the translation into english when there is one of the following words they refer to medical categories of operating rooms theaters i admit they may not be universally used sceptique orl brulure brule ne onatal pre natal pre mature neurochirurgie neuro surgery chirurgie ge ne rale chirurgie plastique urologie urology thank you for you help cheers berthe y choueiry choueiry lia di epfl ch lia di ecole polytechnique federale de lausanne ecublens ch lausanne switzerland voice and fax ps please reply by e mail if possible since i scan too quickly through the messages of this newsgroup
sci.med	re do we need a radiologist to read an ultrasound e j draper draper odin mda uth tmc edu writes if it were my wife i would insist that a radiologist be involved in the process radiologist are intensively trained in the process of interpreting diagnostic imaging data and are aware of many things that other physicians aren t aware of maybe maybe not a new graduate would obviously be well trained but perhaps without sufficient experience a radiologist trained or years ago who has not kept his continuing education current is a whole nuther matter a ob who has trained in modern radiology technology is certainly more qualified than the latter and at least equal to the former would you want a radiologist to deliver your baby if you wouldn t then why would you want a ob gyn to read your ultrasound study if the radiologist is also trained in ob gyn why not john john de armond wd oqc interested in high performance mobility performance engineering magazine tm interested in high tech and computers marietta ga send ur snail mail address to jgd dixie com perform dixie com for a free sample mag lee harvey oswald where are ya when we need ya
sci.med	re help me inject according to a previous poster one should seek a doctor s assistance for injections but what about sumatriptin sp doesn t one have to inject oneself immediately upon the onset of a migraine
sci.med	re diet for crohn s ibd in article apr vms ocom okstate edu banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes in article r g finne ceti cs unc edu jge cs unc edu john eyles writes a friend has what is apparently a fairly minor case of crohn s disease but she can t seem to eat certain foods such as fresh vegetables without discomfort and of course she wants to avoid a recurrence her question is are there any nutritionists who specialize in the problems of people with crohn s disease i saw the suggestion of lipoxygnase inhibitors like tea and turmeric thanks in advance john eyles all your friend really has to do is find a registered dietician rd while most work in hospitals and clinics many major cities will have rd s who are in private practice so to speak many physicans will refer their patients with crohn s disease to rd s for dietary help if you can get your friend s physician to make a referral medical insurance should pay for the rd s services just like the services of a physical therapist the better medical insurance plans will cover this but even if your friend s plan doesn t it would be well worth the cost to get on a good diet to control the intestinal discomfort and help the intestinal lining heal crohn s disease is an inflammatory disease of the intestinal lining and lipoxygenase inhibitors may help by decreasing leukotriene formation but i m not aware of tea or turmeric containing lipoxygenase inhibitors for if you do a medline search on turmeric you ll see that it is a potent lipoxygenase inhibitor which is being investigated in a number of areas i m in cardiology and about years ago the cardiothoracic surgery lab at my hospital compared the effect of a teaspoon of dissolved turmeric vs a bolus of tpa in preventing myocardial reperfusion injury in a perfused langendorff sheep heart the turmeric was more effective a colleague of mine in the school of pharmacy dr ron kohen has a paper in press on the free radical scavenging activity and antioxidant activity of tea josh backon vms huji ac il bad inflammation steroids are used but for a mild case the side effects are not worth the small benefit gained by steroid use upjohn is developing a new lipoxygenase inhibitor that should greatly help deal with inflammatory diseases but it s not available yet marty b
sci.med	re wanted rat cell line adrenal gland cortical c in article roos operoni helsinki fi roos operoni helsinki fi christophe roos writes i am looking for a rat cell line of adrenal gland cortical cell type i have been looking at atcc without success and would very much appreciate any help i shot off a response to this last night that i ve tried to cancel it was only a few minutes later while driving home that i remembered that your message does specifically say cortical my first reaction had been to suggest the pc pheochromocytoma line that may still be a good compromise depending on what you re doing have you concidered using a mouse cell line from one of the sv t antigen transgenic lines another alternative might be primary cells from bovine adrenal cortex mike
sci.med	need help on scaring please hi i need information on scaring particularly as a result of grazing the skin i really wanted to know of would a scar occur as a result of grazing if yes then would it disappear how long does a graze take to heal will hair grow on it once it has healed what is scar tissue should antiseptic cream be applied to it regularly is it better to keep it exposed and let fresh air at it please help any info no matter how small will be appreciated greatly but please e mail me directly because i dont read this newsgroup often this is my first time shaz
sci.med	re diet for crohn s ibd summary of thread a person has crohns raw vegetables cause problems unspecified steve holland replies patient may have mild obstruction avoid things that would plug her up crohn s has no dietary restriction in general in article apr aio jsc nasa gov spenser fudd jsc nasa gov s spenser aden wrote interesting statements simply because i have been told otherwise i m certainly not questioning steve s claims as for one i am not a doctor and i agree that foods don t bring on the recurrence of crohn s but inflammation can be either mildly or drastically enhanced due to food the feeling obout this has changed in the gi community the current feeling is that inflammation is not induced by food there is even evidence that patients deprived of food have mucosal atrophy due to lack of stimulation of intestinal growth factors there is now interest in providing small amounts of nasogastric feeding to patients on iv nutrition but i digress symptoms can be drastically enhanced by food but not inflammation having had one major obstruction resulting in resection is that a good enough caveat i was told that a low residue diet is called for basically the idea is that if there is inflammation of the gut which may not be realized by the patient any residue in the system can be caught in the folds of inflammation and constantly irritate thus exacerbating the problem therefore anything that doesn t digest completely by the point of common inflammation should be avoided with what i ve been told is typical crohn s of the terminal ileum my diet should be low residue consisting of completely out never again items o corn kernel husk doesn t digest most of us know this o popcorn same o dried dehydrated fruit and fruit skins o nuts very tough when it comes to giving up some fudge the low residue diet is appropriate for you if you still have obstructions again it is not felt that food causes inflammation these foods are avoided because they may get stuck i d go ahead and have the fudge though discouraged greatly o raw vegetables too fibrous o wheat and raw grain breads o exotic lettuce iceberg is ok since it s apparently mostly water o greens turnip mustard kale etc o little seeds like sesame try getting an arby s without it o long grain and wild rice husky o beans you ll generate enough gas alone without them o basically anything that requires heavy digestive processing i was told that the more processed the food the better rather ironic in this day and age the whole point is preventative you want to give your system as little chance to inflame as possible i was told that among the numerous things that were heavily discouraged i only listed a few to try the ones i wanted and see how i felt if it s bad don t do it again remember though that this was while i was in remission for veggies cook the daylights out of them i prefer steaming i think it s cooks more thoroughly you re mileage may vary as with anything else check with your doctor don t just take my word but this is the info i ve been given and it may be a starting point for discussion good luck spencer makes an especially good point in having an observant and informed patient would that many patients be able to tell what causes them problems the digestive processing idea is changing but if a food causes problems avoid them be sure that the foods are tested a second time to be sure the food is a real cause crohn s commonly causes intermittent symptoms and some patients end up with severly restricted diets that take months to renormalize there was a good article in the ccfa newsletter recently that discussed the issue of dietary restriction of fiber it would be worth reading to anyone with an interest in crohn s and as i always say when dealing with crohn s as does spencer good luck steve holland
sci.med	re diet for crohn s ibd in article apr vms ocom okstate edu banschbach vms ocom okstate edu wrote in article r g finne ceti cs unc edu jge cs unc edu john eyles writes a friend has what is apparently a fairly minor case of crohn s disease but she can t seem to eat certain foods such as fresh vegetables without discomfort and of course she wants to avoid a recurrence her question is are there any nutritionists who specialize in the problems of people with crohn s disease i saw the suggestion of lipoxygnase inhibitors like tea and turmeric thanks in advance john eyles all your friend really has to do is find a registered dietician rd while most work in hospitals and clinics many major cities will have rd s who are in private practice so to speak many physicans will refer their patients with crohn s disease to rd s for dietary help if you can get your friend s physician to make a referral medical insurance should pay for the rd s services just like the services of a physical therapist the better medical insurance plans will cover this but even if your friend s plan doesn t it would be well worth the cost to get on a good diet to control the intestinal discomfort and help the intestinal lining heal crohn s disease is an inflammatory disease of the intestinal lining and lipoxygenase inhibitors may help by decreasing leukotriene formation but i m not aware of tea or turmeric containing lipoxygenase inhibitors for bad inflammation steroids are used but for a mild case the side effects are not worth the small benefit gained by steroid use upjohn is developing a new lipoxygenase inhibitor that should greatly help deal with inflammatory diseases but it s not available yet marty b be sure a dietician is up to date on crohn s and ulcerative colitis previously low residue diets were recommended but this advice has now changed also there will be differences in advice in patients with and without obstructuon remaining so input by the physician will be important i find the dietician very important in my practice and i send most of my patients to a dietician in the course of seeing them since dieticians know so much better how to get diet histories and evaluate the contents of a diet than i do steve holland
sci.med	re homeopathy a respectable medical tradition in article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu gordon banks writes in article nlsun oracle nl rgasch nl oracle com robert gasch writes in many european countries homepathy is accepted as a method of curing or at least alleiating many conditions to which modern medicine has no answer in most of these countries insurance pays for the treatments accepted by whom not by scientists there are people in every country who waste time and money on quackery in britain and scandanavia where i have worked it was not paid for what are most of these countries i don t believe you when were you in britain my information is different from miranda castro the complete homeopathy handbook isbn oringinally published in britain in from page and in when the national health service was established homeopathy was included as an officially approved method of treatment
sci.med	choleric and the great nt nf semantic war cross posted from alt psychology personality since it talks about physician s personalities apologies to sci med readers not familiar with the myers briggs nt nf personality terms but in a word or two the nts intuitive thinkers are approximately your philosophy science tech pragmatic types and the nfs intuitive feelers are your humanities social science theology idealistic types they hate each others guts but tend to inter marry the letter j is a reference to conscienciousness decisiveness jon noring emits typical nf type stuff physicians are just responding in their natural way hyper choleric syndrome hcs it is fascinating that a disproportionate number of physicians will type out as nt one driving characteristic of an nt especially an ntj is their obvious choleric behavior driver type a etc the extreme emotional need to control to lead and or to be the best or the most competent please get it right jon this ntj has a strong desire to correct semantic mistakes because the nfs of this world are fouling the once pristine nt intellectual nest with their verbal poop the dominant correlation is nt phlegmatic and not nt choleric one of the semantic roots of choleric is the idea of hot emotional and one of the semantic roots of phlegmatic is cold unemotional here is a thumbnail sketch taken from hans eysenck refering to wundt relating the ancient greek quadratic typology with modern terms emotional melancholic choleric thoughtful suspicious quickly aroused hotheaded unhappy worried egocentric histrionic anxious exhibitonist serious active unchangeable changeable calm playful reasonable carefree steadfast persistent hopeful sociable highly principled controlled controlled easy going phlegmatic sanguine v non emotional i suspect that your characterisation of nts as choleric is what you psych types call a projection of your own nf ness onto us maybe we need more nf doctor s perhaps in serious pediatics and my little boy s got a runny nose doctor general practice but please god not in neurology opthamology urology etc etc and nf psychiatry should seperate from nt i e real psychiatry and be given a new name something like channeling tony nexus yorku ca tony wallis york university toronto canada
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article dpc uxa cso uiuc edu daniel paul checkman writes bruce data io com bruce reynolds writes anecedotal evidence is worthless even doctors who have been using a drug or treatment for years and who swear it is effective are often suprised at the results of clinical trials whether or not msg causes describable reportable documentable symptoms should be pretty simple to discover but it is quite a leap in logic to observe one situation where anecdotal evidence led nowhere and therefore conclude that anecdotal evidence will never lead anywhere i m sure somebody here can provide an example where anecdotal evidence and the interpretation of it was upheld verified by follow on rigorous clinical trials i tend to disagree i think anecdotal evidence provided there is a lot of it and it is fairly consistent will is very important first it points to the necessity of doing a study and second it at least says that the effects are all psychological or possibly allergy in this case as i ve pointed out person s make believe can easily be another person s reality good point there has been a tendency by some on this newsgroup to circle the wagons to the viewpoint that anecdotal medical evidence is worthless maybe to counter the claims of those who are presenting anecdotal evidence to support controversial subjects such as the yeast hypothesis but evidence is evidence it requires a jury or a process to sort it out and determine the truth from the junk medicine must continue to strive to better understand the workings of the body mind for the purpose of alleviating illness anecdotal evidence is just one piece of the puzzle it is not worthless rather it can help focus limited resources in the right direction jon noring charter member infj club if you re dying to know what infj means be brave e mail me i ll send info jon noring noring netcom com jkn international ip fred s gourmet chocolate carlton place phone chips world s best livermore ca v mail who are you read alt psychology personality that s where the action is
sci.med	how to prevent kidney stone formation i got asked in sci med nutrition about vitamin c and oxalate production toxic kidney stone formation i decided to post my answer here as well because of the recent question about kidney stones not long after i got into sci med i got flamed by a medical fellow for stating that magnesium would prevent kidney stone formation i m going to state it again here but the best way to prevent kidney stones from forming is to take b supplements read on to find out why i have my asbestos suit on now guys vitamin c will form oxalic acid but large doses are needed above grams per day review article nutritional factors in calcium containing kidney stones with particular emphasis on vitamin c int clin nutr rev but glycine also forms oxalic acid d amino acid oxidases for both glycine and vitamin c one of the best ways to drastically reduce this production is not to cut back on dietary intake of vitamin c or glycine but to increase your intake of vitamin b control of hyperoxaluria with large doses of pyridoxine in patients with kidney stones int urol nephrol to mg of b each day significasntly decreased the urinary excretion of oxalate over the month treatment program the action of pyridoxine in primary hyperoxaluria clin sci patients receiving at least mg b each day showed a significant reduction in urinary oxalate levels for gylcine this effect is due to increased transaminase activity b is required for transaminase activity which makes less glycine available for oxidative deamination d amino acid oxidases for vitamin c the effect is quite different there are different pathways for vitamin c catabolism the pathway that leads to oxalic acid formation will usually have to of the ingested dose going into oxalic acid but this is highly variable and the vitamin c review article pointed out that unless the dose gets upto grams per day not too much vitamin c gets catabolized to form oxalic acid at very high doses of vitamin c above grams per day more of the extra vitamin c more than conversion can end up as oxalic acid in a very early study on vitamin c and oxalic production proc soc exp biol med intakes of grams per day up to grams per day increased the average oxalic acid excretion from mg per day up to mg per day until grams per day was reached the average excreted was increased by only to mg per day gram dose gram dose gram dose and gram dose grams jumped it to mg over the average excretion before supplementation and grams jumped it to mg over the average before supplementation b is required by more enzymes than any other vitamin in the body there are probably some enzymes that require vitamin b that we don t know about yet vitamin c catabolism is still not completely understood but the speculation is that this other pathway that does not form oxalic acid must have an enzyme in it that requires b differences in b levels could then explain the very variable production of oxalic acid from a vitamin c challenge this is not the preferred route of catabolism increasing your intake of b would then result in less oxalic acid being formmed if you take vitamin c supplements since the typical american diet is deficient in b some researchers believe that the main cause of calcium oxalate kidney stones is b deficiency especially since so little oxalic acid gets absorbed from the gut diets providing to mg of oxalic acid per day showed absolutely no change in urinary excretion of oxalate urol int if mg was present each day there was a significant increase in urinary oxalate excretion here are the high oxalate foods beans coca instant coffee parsley rhubarb spinach and tea contain at least mg grams beet tops carrots celery chocolate cumber grapefruit kale peanuts pepper sweet potatoe contain to mg grams if the threshold is mg per day you can see that you really have a lot of latitude in food selection a recent n eng j med article also points out that one good way to prevent kidney stone formation is to increase your intake of calcium which will prevent most of the dietary oxalate from being absorbed at all if you also increase your intake of b you shouldn t have to worry about kidney stones at all the rda for b is mg per day for males and mg per day for females directly related to protein intake b can be toxic nerve damage if it is consumed in doses of mg or more per day for an extended peroid weeks to months the usda food survey done in had an average intake of mg per day for males and mg per day for females living in the u s coupled with this low intake was a high protein diet which greatly increases the b requirement as well as the presence of some of the different drugs that either block b absorption are metabolic antagonists of b or promote b excretion in the urine common ones are birth control pills alcohol isoniazid penicillamine and corticosteroids i tell my students to supplement all their patients that are going to get any of the drugs that increase the b requirement the dose recommended for patients taking birth control pills is mg per day and this should work for most of the other drugs that increase the b requirement this would be on top of your dietary intake of b any patient that has a history of kidney stone formation should be given b supplements one other good way to prevent kidney stone formation is to make sure your ca mg dietary ratio is magnesium oxalate is much more soluble than is calcium oxalate the magnesium calcium ratio in the concentrated urines of patients with calcium oxalate calculi invest urol effect of magnesium citrate and magnesium oxide on the crystallization of calcium in urine changes producted by food magnesium interaction j urol review article magnesium in the physiopathology and treatment of renal calcium stones j presse med there are actually about three times as many articles published in the medical literature on the role of magnesium in preventing kidney stone formation than there are for b i thought that i was being pretty safe in stating that magnesium would prevent kidney stone formation in an earlier post in this news group but good old john a in mass jumped all over me i guess that he doesn t read the medical literature oh well since kidney stones can be a real pain and a lot of people suffer from them i thought i d tell you how you can avoid the pain and stay out of the doctor s office martin banschbach ph d professor of biochemistry and chairman department of biochemistry and microbiology osu college of osteopathic medicine w th street tulsa ok without discourse there is no remembering without remembering there is no learning without learning there is only ignorance from a wise man who lived in china many many years ago i think that it still has meaning in today s world
sci.med	re request gyro souvlaki sauce in article r pcn rm terminator rs itd umich edu donald mackie med umich edu donald mackie writes in article apr locus com michael trofimoff tron fafnir la locus com writes would anyone out there in net land happen to have an authentic sure fire way of making this great sauce that is used to adorn gyro s and souvlaki i m not sure of the exact recipe but i m sure acidophilus is one of the major ingredients the only recipies i ve ever seen for this include plain yogurt finely chopped cucumber and a couple of crushed cloves of garlic yummy kenneth gilbert university of pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit not a programmer
sci.med	re great post was re candida yeast bloom very long in article noringc wzm n netcom com noring netcom com jon noring writes hate to wreck your elaborate theory but steve dyer is not an md so professional jealosy over doctors who help their patients with nystatin etc can t very well come into the picture steve doesn t have any patients response to specificially candida albicans and i showed a strong positive another question would everybody show the same strong positive so this test is essentially useless and assuming it is true that candida can grow yes everyone who is normal does that we use candida on the other arm when we put a tuberculin test on if people don t react to candida we assume the tb test was not conclusive since such people may not react to anything all normal people have antibodies to candida if not you would quickly turn into a fungus ball this brings up an interesting observation used by those who will deny and reject any and all aspects of the yeast hypothesis until the appropriate studies are done and that is if you can t observe or culture the yeast bloom in the gut or sinus then there s no way to diagnose or even recognize the disease and i know they realize that it is virtually impossible to test for candida overbloom in any part of the body that cannot be easily observed since candida is everywhere in the body it s a real catch you ve just discovered one of the requirements for a good quack theory find something that no one can disprove and then write a book saying it is the cause of whatever since no one can disprove it you can rake in the bucks for quite some time i have often wondered what an m d with chronic gi distress or sinus problems would do about the problem that he tells his patients is a non existent syndrome that is odd isn t it why do you suppose it is that mds with these common problems don t go for these crazy ideas does the professional jealosy extend to suffering in silence even though they know they could be cured if they just followed this quack book gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	re homeopathy a respectable medical tradition in article c qmjj yb ampex com jag ampex com rayaz jagani writes from miranda castro the complete homeopathy handbook isbn oringinally published in britain in from page and in when the national health service was established homeopathy was included as an officially approved method of treatment i was there in i suppose it must have died out since then certainly i never heard of any homeopaths or herbalists in the employ of the nhs perhaps the law codified it but the authorities refused to hire any homeopaths a similar law in the us allows chiropractors to practice in va hospitals but i ve never seen one there and i don t know of a single va that has hired a chiropractor there are a lot of britons on the net so someone should be able to tell us if the nhs provides homeopaths for you gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
sci.med	epstein barr syndrome questions okay this is a long shot my friend robin has recurring bouts of mononucleosis type symptoms very regularly this has been going on for a number of years she s seen a number of doctors six was the last count i think most of them have said either you have mono or you re full of it there s nothing wrong with you one has admitted to having no idea what was wrong with her and one has claimed that it is epstein barr syndrome now what she told me about ebs is that very few doctors even believe that it exists obviously this has been her experience so what s the story is it real does the medical profession believe it to be real has anyone had success is treating ebs or is it just something to live with thanks for your assistance joel the ogre cherney jcherney reed edu of the horde
sci.med	re food related seizures in article c x l r athena cs uga edu mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington writes newsgroups sci med path news larc nasa gov saimiri primate wisc edu sdd hp com elroy jpl nasa gov swrinde zaphod mps ohio state edu howland reston ans net europa eng gtefsd com emory athena aisun ai uga edu mcovingt from mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington sender usenet athena cs uga edu nntp posting host aisun ai uga edu organization ai programs university of georgia athens references paulson apr cmb larc nasa gov bu edu c uq b lrj toads pgh pa us date fri apr gmt lines in article c uq b lrj toads pgh pa us geb cs pitt edu gordon banks writes in article bu edu dozonoff bu edu david ozonoff writes many of these cereals are corn based after your post i looked in the literature and located two articles that implicated corn contains tryptophan and seizures the idea is that corn in the diet might potentiate an already existing or latent seizure disorder not cause it check to see if the two kellog cereals are corn based i d be interested years ago when i was an intern an obese young woman was brought into the er comatose after having been reported to have grand mal seizures why attending a corn festival we pumped her stomach and obtained what seemed like a couple of liters of corn much of it intact kernals after a few hours she woke up and was fine i was tempted to sign her out as acute corn intoxication gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and how about contaminants on the corn e g aflatoxin michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi what is aflatoxin sharon sharon paulson s s paulson larc nasa gov nasa langley research center bldg d mailstop work hampton virginia home
sci.med	re choleric and the great nt nf semantic war also remember that most people map the sanguine choleric melencholic phlegmatic division onto the extraversion and neuroticism dimensions like eysenck and that the mbti does not deal with neuroticism costa mccrae frank fujita
sci.med	re krillean photography stgprao st unocal com richard ottolini writes living things maintain small electric fields to enhance certain chemical reactions promote communication of states with in a cell communicate between cells of which the nervous system is a specialized example and perhaps other uses true these electric fields change with location and time in a large organism also true special photographic techniques such as applying external fields in kirillian photography interact with these fields or the resistances caused by these fields to make interesting pictures not really kirlian photography is taking pictures of the corona discharge from objects animate or inanimate the fields applied to the objects are millions of times larger than any biologically created fields if you want to record the biologically created electric fields you ve got to use low noise high gain sensors typical of eegs and ekgs kirlian photography is just phun with physics type stuff right up there with soaking chunks of extra fine steel wool in liquid oxygen then hitting them with a hammer which like a kirlean setup is fun but possibly dangerous perhaps such pictures will be diagonistic of disease problems in organisms when better understood perhaps not probably not grant edwards yow vote for me i m rosemount inc well tapered half cocked ill conceived and grante aquarius rosemount com tax deferred
sci.med	re arrhythmia in article apr husc harvard edu perry husc harvard edu alexis perry writes in article apr vaxc stevens tech edu u averba vaxc stevens tech edu writes doctors said that he could die from it and the medication caused is it that serious my ekg often comes back with a few irregular beats another question is a low blood potassium level very bad my doctor seems concerned but she tends to worry too much in general the term arrhythmia is usually used to encompass a wide range of abnormal heart rhythms cardiac dysrhythmias some of them are very serious while others are completely benign having a few irregular beats on an ekg could be serious depending on what those beats were and when they occurred or could be of no significance low blood potassium levels probably predispose people with underlying heart disease to develop arrhythmias very low potassium levels are clearly dangerous but it is not clear how much of a problem low end of normal levels are a lot of cardiologists seem to treat anyone with even a mildly low normal potassium level david rind rind enterprise bih harvard edu
sci.med	re candida yeast bloom fact or fiction in article apr vms ocom okstate edu banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes poster for being treated by a liscenced physician for a disease that did not exist calling this physician a quack was reprehensible steve and i see that you and some of the others are doing it here as well do you believe that any quacks exist how about quack diagnoses is being a licensed physician enough to guarantee that someone is not a quack or is it just that even if a licensed physician is a quack other people shouldn t say so can you give an example of a commonly diagnosed ailment that you think is a quack diagnosis or have we gotten to the point in civilization where we no longer need to worry about unscrupulous healers taking advantage of people david rind rind enterprise bih harvard edu
sci.med	re homeopathy a respectable medical tradition in article c y zr b toads pgh pa us geb cs pitt edu gordon banks writes in article c qmjj yb ampex com jag ampex com rayaz jagani writes from miranda castro the complete homeopathy handbook isbn oringinally published in britain in from page and in when the national health service was established homeopathy was included as an officially approved method of treatment i was there in i suppose it must have died out since then certainly i never heard of any homeopaths or herbalists in the employ of the nhs perhaps the law codified it but the authorities refused to hire any homeopaths a similar law in the us allows chiropractors to practice in va hospitals but i ve never seen one there and i don t know of a single va that has hired a chiropractor there are a lot of britons on the net so someone should be able to tell us if the nhs provides homeopaths for you i don t think they provide homeopaths heck the heir apparent was trying to promote osteopaths to the ranks of eligibility a couple of years back it pleased my family no end since i m at an osteopathic school sort of validated it for them then i told them that the name was the same but the practice was different oh if you re seeking validation for your philosophy on the strength of the national health service adopting it i suggest that you are not very sure of the validity of your philosophy i believe in the nhs was still having its nurses taught the fine art of cupping which is the vacuum extraction of intradermal fluids by means of heating a cup placing it on the afflicted site and allowing it to cool i wouldn t take my sick daughter to a homeopath david n chorley yikes i m agreeing with gordon banks
sci.med	re modified sense of taste in cancer pt in article apr peavax mlo dec com lunger helix enet dec com dave lunger writes what does a lack of taste of foods or a sense of taste that seems off when eating foods in someone who has cancer mean what are the possible causes of this why does it happen i can t answer most of your questions but i ve seen it happen in family members who are being treated with radiation and or chemotherapy jory graham published a cookbook many years ago in cooperation with the american cancer society i think called something has to taste good as i recall the cookbook was just what we needed several times when favorite foods suddenly became yech kay klier biology dept uni
sci.med	re great post was re candida yeast bloom very long in article noringc wzm n netcom com noring netcom com jon noring writes if you can t observe or culture the yeast bloom in the gut or sinus then there s no way to diagnose or even recognize the disease and i know they realize that it is virtually impossible to test for candida overbloom in any part of the body that cannot be easily observed since candida is everywhere in the body in article c y nm axv toads pgh pa us geb cs pitt edu gordon banks writes you ve just discovered one of the requirements for a good quack theory find something that no one can disprove and then write a book saying it is the cause of whatever since no one can disprove it you can rake in the bucks for quite some time i hope gordon banks did not mean to imply that notions such as hard to see candida infections causing various problems should not be investigated many researchers have made breakthroughs by figuring out how to investigate things that were previously thought virtually impossible to test for indeed i would be surprised if candida overbloom were such a phenomena i would think that candida would produce signature byproducts whose measure would then set a lower bound on the extent of recent infection i realize this might get quite tricky and difficult probably expensive and likely inconvenient or uncomfortable to the subjects but that is not the same as virtually impossible russell
sci.med	re diet for crohn s ibd one thing that i haven t seen in this thread is a discussion of the relation between ibd inflammation and the profile of ingested fatty acids fas i was diagnosed last may w crohn s of the terminal ileum when i got out of the hospital i read up on it a bit and came across several studies investigating the role of epa an essentially fa in reducing inflammation the evidence was mixed many of these studies are discussed in inflammatory bowel disease macdermott stenson but if i recall correctly there were some methodological bones to be picked with the studies both the ones w pos and w neg results in the studies patients were given epa a few grams day for most of the studies but if i recall correctly there was no restriction of the other fas that the patients could consume from the informed layperson s perspective this seems mistaken if lots of n fas are consumed along with the epa then the ratio of bad prostanoid products to good prostanoid products could still be fairly bad isn t this ratio the issue what s the view of the gastro community on epa these days epa supplements along with a fairly severe restriction of other fas appear to have helped me significantly though it could just be the low absolute amount of fat i eat calories brian bmdelane midway uchicago edu
sci.med	any interest in a mailing list on epilepsy and seizures i have seen a fair bit of traffic recently concerning epilepsy and seizures i am also interested in this subject i have a son with epilepsy and i am very active with the local association i posted a message like this a few months ago and received no replies but here it is again is anyone interested in participating in a mailing list on epilepsy and seizures this would allow us to hold discussions and share information via electronic mail i already run a listserver for two other groups so the mechanics would be easy if you are interested mail me a note if i get enough replies i will make it happen and provide you with the details btw i have also started a database on epilepsy this is part of my research on natural language question answering systems users of this service are able to ask questions about epilepsy and the program searches the database and retrieves its best response the technology works by comparing your question against a set of questions that have been seen before all new questions that are not answered are recorded and used to improve the system this database is still small and sparse but we are adding new information to try it out do the following telnet debra dgbt doc ca login chat then select the epilepsy item from the menu of databases andrew patrick ph d communications research centre ottawa canada andrew calvin dgbt doc ca for a good time run telnet debra dgbt doc ca and login as chat
sci.med	re epstein barr syndrome questions in article apr reed edu jcherney reed edu writes okay this is a long shot my friend robin has recurring bouts of mononucleosis type symptoms very regularly this has been going on for a number of years she s seen a number of doctors six was the last count i think most of them have said either you have mono or you re full of it there s nothing wrong with you one has admitted to having no idea what was wrong with her and one has claimed that it is epstein barr syndrome now what she told me about ebs is that very few doctors even believe that it exists obviously this has been her experience so what s the story is it real does the medical profession believe it to be real has anyone had success is treating ebs or is it just something to live with thanks for your assistance outbreaks of a chronic mono like entity were originally called ebs or some variant thereof because most of the people with this disease had elevated levels of antibodies to the ebv virus but not all of them did which prompted an official renaming of the disease to chronic fatigue syndrome this renaming took place in the annals of internal medicine jan i believe now it s also called chronic fatigue and immune dysfunction syndrome cfids since it seems clear that some sort of immune disregulation is causing the probs astonishly there are still docs who tell people with massively swollen glands recurrent fevers and nightsweats etc that there s nothing wrong with them this is not the same thing as saying that the syndrome may have a at least partly psychological cause the disagreement among people whose thoughts are worth considering centers on just what the cause is no one knows but theories include psychological stress some sort of virus a retrovirus say most maybe one of the newly discovered herpes viruses environmental toxins bacteria and yes candida genes and or some combo of these there s no outright cure at the moment but different docs try different things some of which seem to help massive amounts of info on the condition are available these days post your q to alt med cfs and you will be flooded w facts note there are lots of far better understood and better treatable diseases that look like cfids make sure these get ruled out by a good doc
sci.med	frozen shoulder and lawn mowing ihave had a frozen shoulder for over a year or about a year it is still partially frozen and i am still in physical therapy every week but the pain has subsided almost completely until last week when i mowed the lawn for twenty minutes each two days in a row i have a push type power mower the pain started back up a little bit for the first time in quite a while and i used ice and medicine again can anybody explain why this particular activity which does not seem to stress me very much generally should cause this shoulder problem thanks alice
sci.med	re great post was re candida yeast bloom very long in article turpin cs utexas edu russell turpin writes i hope gordon banks did not mean to imply that notions such as hard to see candida infections causing various problems should not be investigated many researchers have made breakthroughs by figuring out how to investigate things that were previously thought virtually impossible to test for indeed i would be surprised if candida overbloom were such a phenomena i would think that candida would produce signature byproducts whose measure would then set a lower bound on the extent of recent infection i realize this might get quite tricky and difficult probably expensive and likely inconvenient or uncomfortable to the subjects but that is not the same as virtually impossible i recall reading in the recently revised edition of the yeast connection that there is indeed work by researchers to do this of course they are working on the theory that candida overbloom with penetration into mucus membrane tissue with associated mild inflammatory response can and does occur in a large number of people if you reject this yeast hypothesis then i d guess you d view this research as one more wasteful and quixotic endeavor stay tuned jon noring charter member infj club if you re dying to know what infj means be brave e mail me i ll send info jon noring noring netcom com jkn international ip fred s gourmet chocolate carlton place phone chips world s best livermore ca v mail who are you read alt psychology personality that s where the action is
sci.med	re diet for crohn s ibd in article apr midway uchicago edu bmdelane quads uchicago edu brian manning delaney wrote one thing that i haven t seen in this thread is a discussion of the relation between ibd inflammation and the profile of ingested fatty acids fas i was diagnosed last may w crohn s of the terminal ileum when i got out of the hospital i read up on it a bit and came across several studies investigating the role of epa an essentially fa in reducing inflammation the evidence was mixed many of these studies are discussed in inflammatory bowel disease macdermott stenson but if i recall correctly there were some methodological bones to be picked with the studies both the ones w pos and w neg results in the studies patients were given epa a few grams day for most of the studies but if i recall correctly there was no restriction of the other fas that the patients could consume from the informed layperson s perspective this seems mistaken if lots of n fas are consumed along with the epa then the ratio of bad prostanoid products to good prostanoid products could still be fairly bad isn t this ratio the issue what s the view of the gastro community on epa these days epa supplements along with a fairly severe restriction of other fas appear to have helped me significantly though it could just be the low absolute amount of fat i eat calories brian bmdelane midway uchicago edu as you note the research is mixed so there is no consensus on the role of fatty acids in ulcerative colitis there is a role for short chain fatty acids in patients with colostomies and rectal pouches that are inflammed short is butyrate and shorter there may be a role for treatment of uc with short chain fatty acids and i am looking forward to the upcoming aga meeting in boston to see what people are doing you raise a hypothesis about the studies and restriction of other fatty acids you should contact the authors directly about that or even write a letter to the editor it is a good point by the way the abbreviation epa is not in general use so i do not know what fatty acid you are speaking about and to brian an u of c there is a physician named stephen hanauer there who is a recognized expert in the treatment of ibd you might give him a call he is interested in new combinations of drugs for the treatment of ibd if you call please say hello to him from me i was looking at u of c for a position and perhaps still am and be sure to look into joining the ccfa best of luck steve holland
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition in article apr llyene jpl nasa gov julie eddie jpl nasa gov julie kangas writes as for how foods taste if i m not allergic to msg and i like the taste of it why shouldn t i use it saying i shouldn t use it is like saying i shouldn t eat spicy food because my neighbor has an ulcer nobody is saying that you shouldn t be allowed to use msg just don t force it on others if you have food that you want to enhance with msg just put the msg on the table like salt it is then the option of the eater to use it if you make a commerical product just leave it out you can include a packet like some salt packets if you desire salt pepper mustard ketchup pickles are table options treat msg the same way i wouldn t shove my condiments down your throat don t shove yours down mine wfl walter lundby
sci.med	quack quack was re candida yeast bloom fact or fiction in article rind enterprise bih harvard edu david rind writes do you believe that any quacks exist how about quack diagnoses is being a licensed physician enough to guarantee that someone is not a quack or is it just that even if a licensed physician is a quack other people shouldn t say so can you give an example of a commonly diagnosed ailment that you think is a quack diagnosis or have we gotten to the point in civilization where we no longer need to worry about unscrupulous healers taking advantage of people i would say there are also significant numbers of unscrupulous doctors of the squeaky clean traditional crew cut talk to the ama before starting any treatment kind who recommend treatments that though accepted may not be necessary for the patient at the time and all for making a quick buck i would not be surprised if the cost of medical services in the u s is significantly inflated by these quacks of a different color in fact i d say these doctors are the most dangerous since they call into question the true focus of the medical profession the ama and the boards should focus on these quacks instead of devoting unbelievable energy on search and destroy missions to pull the licenses of those doctors who are trying non traditional or not fully accepted treatments for their desperate patients that traditional accepted medicine cannot help now to make a general comment on many recent posts lately i ve seen the word quack bandied about recklessly when a doctor or doctor wanna be has decided to quit discussing any controversial medical subject in a civilized manner all he she has to do is say quack quack and somehow they magically expect the readership of this newsgroup to roll over on their backs and pee pee on themselves in obedience what do they teach you in medical school how to throw your authority around let me put it another way to make my point clear quack is a nebulous word lacking in any precision its sole use is to obfuscate the issues at hand the indiscriminate use of this word is a sure sign of incompetency and coming from any medical doctor or wanna be where competency is expected is real scary but what do i know i ve already been diagnosed by the sci med gods in this newsgroup as being anal retentive and psychotic i look forward to more net diagnoses hey they re free jon quacks r us noring p s may i suggest seriously that if the doctors and wanna be doctors on the net who refuse to have an open mind on alternative treatments and theories such as the yeast theory should create your own moderated group you can call it sci med traditional moderated or sci med ama approved so you can keep anal retentives like me out of it charter member infj club if you re dying to know what infj means be brave e mail me i ll send info jon noring noring netcom com jkn international ip fred s gourmet chocolate carlton place phone chips world s best livermore ca v mail who are you read alt psychology personality that s where the action is
sci.med	re request gyro souvlaki sauce in article r pcn rm terminator rs itd umich edu donald mackie donald mackie med umich edu writes in article apr locus com michael trofimoff tron fafnir la locus com writes would anyone out there in net land happen to have an authentic sure fire way of making this great sauce that is used to adorn gyro s and souvlaki i m not sure of the exact recipe but i m sure acidophilus is one of the major ingredients it s plain yoghurt with grated cucumber and coriander other spices are sometimes used some people use half yoghurt and half mayonaise
sci.med	re heat shock proteins rousseaua immunex com writes about heat shock proteins hsp s and dna i hate to be derogatory but in this case i think it s warranted hsp s are part of the cellular response to stress the only reason they are called heat shock proteins is because they were first demonstrated using heat shock dead tissue ie meat is not going to produce any protein because it s dead also who cares if the dna you are ingesting is mutated it will be completely digested in your stomach which is about ph some of you worry way too much eat a healthy balanced diet and relax my advice is if you don t know what you are talking about it is better to keep your mouth shut than to open it and remove all doubt about your ignorance don t speculate or at least get some concrete information before you do sherry olmstead biochemist sherry olmstead title lab technician forestry canada phone victoria b c internet solmstead a pfc forestry ca
sci.med	poisoning with heavy water was re too many mris in article apr informix com proberts informix com paul roberts writes in article apr kestrel edu king reasoning com dick king writes i recall reading somewhere during my youth in some science popularization book that whyle isotope changes don t normally affect chemistry a consumption of only heavy water would be fatal and that seeds watered only with heavy water do not sprout does anyone know about this i also heard this i always thought it might make a good eposide of columbo for someone to be poisoned with heavy water it wouldn t show up in any chemical test no one else seems to know so i ll post this this topic came up on sci physics fusion shortly after the cold fusion flap started as i recall its been done to some experimental mice they showed various ill effects and eventually died the reason is that deuterium does not have exactly the same reaction rates as hydrogen due to its extra mass which causes lower velocity boltzman constant mumble this throws various bits of body biochemistry out of kilter and you get sick and die i ve never heard of anyone being poisened this way in or out of real life the process takes quite a while if anyone wants to write this book i would imagine you would have to replace a significant fraction of the water in the body with heavy water wait while normal breakdown and repair processes cause other molecules in the body to be synthesised using the deuterium during this process the victim would gradually deteriorate and eventually die but i imagine it would take weeks during which the poisoner would have to ensure that a significant proportion of the water the victim ingested was heavy you would get such a mess of symptoms that the doctors would be both alarmed and confused why should every organ in the body suddenly begin to deteriorate if you can figure out how the poisoner gets the heavy water into the victim in a hospital then you could have a real story here come to think of it would continue even after the heavy water was no longer being ingested so hospitalisation might be too late the most detectable effect would be that the victim s body fluids would literally be heavy water has a molecular weight of and heavy water has a mw of thus the victim s weight will increase by about for every of body water replaced by heavy water maybe the detection occurs because some pathologist in the lab notices that the victim s urine is strangely dense is there any medical test involving the specific gravity of a body fluid paul paul johnson paj gec mrc co uk tel ext these ideas and others like them can be had gec marconi research is not for each from any reputable idealist responsible for my opinions
sci.med	re eye dominance in article c e g world std com rsilver world std com richard silver writes is there a right eye dominance eyedness as there is an overall right handedness in the population i mean do most people require less lens corrections for the one eye than the other if so what kinds of percentages can be attached to this thanks yes there is such a thing as eye dominance although i am not sure if this dominance refers to perscription strength as i recall if you selectively close your dominant eye you will percieve that the image shifts this will not happen if you close your other eye i believe that which eye is dominant is related to handedness but i can t recall the relation at the moment barry d benowitz email bbenowit telesciences com pyrnj telesci bbenowit phone x snail telesciences co systems new albany rd moorestown nj
sci.med	sale melittin see letter melittin in cooperation with the state scientific center on antibiotics we have elaborated our own technology of bee venom components isolation particularly melitin using modern chromatographic eduipment by pharmacia and millipore companies with application of only the materials admitted for manufacturing pharmaceutic production high quality of our product is acknowledged by the expertise of the accredited test laboratory firm test v o souzexpertisa tpp rf littin no less than of the primary substance content quantity from g up to kg date of manufacture march price dol usa per g certificate is on sale adress moscow semyenovskiy val a bost partnership ltd tel fax
sci.med	re adult chicken pox i am and am recovering from a case of chicken pox which i contracted from my year old daughter i have quite a few of these little puppies all over my bod at what point am i no longer infectious my physician s office says when they are all scabbed over is this true i have been in the same boat as you last year i ve tried four times to send you an email response but your end doesn t seem to accept my mail please let me know if you receive this cheers nigel nigel ballard int nigel dataman demon co uk vacant lot bournemouth uk cis radio g hoi for rent diaries of the famous colonel custer surrounded by indians just when i fancied a chinese
sci.med	re help for kidney stones if you think you have kidney stones or your doctor tells you that you do definitely follow up on it my sister was diagnosed with kidney stones years ago and given medication to take to dissolve them after that failed and she continued to be in great pain they decided she had endometriosis when they did exploratory surgery they discovered she had a tumor which turned out to be rhabdomyosarcoma a very rare and agressive cancer i realize this is not what happens in the majority of cases but you never know what can happen and shouldn t take chances
sci.med	why isolate it does anyone on this newsgroup happen to know why morphine was first isolated from opium if you know why or have an idea for where i could look to find this info please mail me csh any suggestionas would be greatly appreciated kilimanjaro is a pretty tricky climb most of it s up until you reach the very very top and then it tends to slope away rather sharply sir george head obe jc logic the point is frozen the beast is dead what is the difference gavin millarrrrrrrrrr jc
sci.med	re is msg sensitivity superstition to milsh nmr z mgh harvard edu alex milshteyn am having said that i might add that in mho msg does not enhance am flavor enoughf for me to miss it when i go to chinese places am i order food without msg to me msg tastes just like a mixture of salt and sugar i don t think that is the case with most people what does it taste like to you if wishes were horses we d all have to wear hip boots origin one world los angeles b
sci.med	re can men get yeast infections to smithmc mentor cc purdue edu lost boy lb i know from personal experience that men can get yeast infections i lb get rather nasty ones from time to time mostly in the area of the lb scrotum and the base of the penis i used to have problems with recurrent athlete s foot until i started drying between my toes with my blow drier after each time i bathe i also dry my pubic area while i am at it to prevent problems you might want to try it my cat types with his tail origin one world los angeles b
sci.space	re gravity waves was predicting gravity wave quantization cosmic noise in article c kvjf qo well sf ca us metares well sf ca us tom van flandern writes crb q kelvin seas virginia edu cameron randale bass writes bruce scott launchpad unc edu bruce scott writes existence is undefined unless it is synonymous with observable in physics crb dong dong dong do i hear the death knell of string theory i agree you can add dark matter and quarks and a lot of other unobservable purely theoretical constructs in physics to that list including the omni present black holes will bruce argue that their existence can be inferred from theory alone then what about my original criticism when i said curvature can only exist relative to something non curved bruce replied existence is undefined unless it is synonymous with observable in physics we cannot observe more than the four dimensions we know about at the moment i don t see a way to defend that statement and the existence of these unobservable phenomena simultaneously tom i hold that space cannot be curved for the simple reason that it can have no properties of properties we can only speak when dealing with matter filling the space to say that in the presence of large bodies space becomes curved is equivalent to stating that something can act upon nothing i for one refuse to subscribe to such a view nikola tesla et tesla was years ahead of his time perhaps now his time comes
sci.space	space faq constants and equations archive name space constants last modified date constants and equations for calculations this list was originally compiled by dale greer additions would be appreciated numbers in parentheses are approximations that will serve for most blue skying purposes unix systems provide the units program useful in converting between different systems metric english etc numbers m s earth orbital velocity at km altitude m s earth orbital velocity at km geosync km mean radius of earth km equatorial radius of earth km mean radius of moon e kg e mass of earth e kg e mass of moon e kg e mass of sun e m s e gravitational constant times mass of earth e m s e gravitational constant times mass of moon e m s e gravitational constant times mass of sun km e mean earth moon distance e m e mean earth sun distance astronomical unit megaton mt tnt about e j or the energy equivalent of about kg gm of matter ref j r williams the energy level of things air force special weapons center ardc kirtland air force base new mexico also see the effects of nuclear weapons compiled by s glasstone and p j dolan published by the us department of defense obtain from the gpo equations where d is distance v is velocity a is acceleration t is time additional more specialized equations are available from ames arc nasa gov pub space faq moreequations for constant acceleration d d vt at v v at v ad acceleration on a cylinder space colony etc of radius r and rotation period t a pi r t for circular keplerian orbits where vc velocity of a circular orbit vesc escape velocity m total mass of orbiting and orbited bodies g gravitational constant defined below u g m can be measured much more accurately than g or m k g m a r radius of orbit measured from center of mass of system v orbital velocity p orbital period a semimajor axis of orbit vc sqrt m g r vesc sqrt m g r sqrt vc v u a p pi sqrt u a k v g m r conservation of energy the period of an eccentric orbit is the same as the period of a circular orbit with the same semi major axis change in velocity required for a plane change of angle phi in a circular orbit delta v sqrt gm r sin phi energy to put mass m into a circular orbit ignores rotational velocity which reduces the energy a bit gmm re rcirc re radius of the earth rcirc radius of the circular orbit classical rocket equation where dv change in velocity isp specific impulse of engine ve exhaust velocity x reaction mass m rocket mass excluding reaction mass g m s ve isp g dv ve ln m x m ve ln final mass initial mass relativistic rocket equation constant acceleration t unaccelerated c a sinh a t c d c a cosh a t c v c tanh a t c relativistic rocket with exhaust velocity ve and mass ratio mr at c ve c ln mr or t unaccelerated c a sinh ve c ln mr d c a cosh ve c ln mr v c tanh ve c ln mr converting from parallax to distance d in parsecs p in arc seconds d in astronomical units p miscellaneous f ma force is mass times acceleration w fd work energy is force times distance atmospheric density varies as exp mgz kt where z is altitude m is molecular weight in kg of air g is local acceleration of gravity t is temperature k is bolztmann s constant on earth up to km d d exp z e where d is density d is density at km is approximately true so d km ft d d km ft d d km ft d d km ft d atmospheric scale height dry lapse rate in km at emission level k km earth mars venus titan jupiter saturn uranus neptune triton titius bode law for approximating planetary distances r n n astronomical units n infinity for mercury for venus for earth etc this fits fairly well except for neptune constants e j s e planck s constant h e j s e planck s constant pi h bar e j k e boltzmann s constant k e w m k e stephan boltzmann constant sigma e n m kg e newton s gravitational constant g m k e wien s constant sigma w e w e luminosity of sun w m solar constant intensity at au e m e radius of sun km e radius of moon m s e speed of light in vacuum c e m e light year au e light years parsec e m e black hole radius also called schwarzschild radius gm c where g is newton s grav constant m is mass of bh c is speed of light things to add somebody look them up basic rocketry numbers equations aerodynamical stuff energy to put a pound into orbit or accelerate to interstellar velocities non circular cases next faq astronomical mnemonics
sci.space	space faq controversial questions archive name space controversy last modified date controversial questions these issues periodically come up with much argument and few facts being offered the summaries below attempt to represent the position on which much of the net community has settled please don t bring them up again unless there s something truly new to be discussed the net can t set public policy that s what your representatives are for what happened to the saturn v plans despite a widespread belief to the contrary the saturn v blueprints have not been lost they are kept at marshall space flight center on microfilm the problem in re creating the saturn v is not finding the drawings it is finding vendors who can supply mid s vintage hardware like guidance system components and the fact that the launch pads and vab have been converted to space shuttle use so you have no place to launch from by the time you redesign to accommodate available hardware and re modify the launch pads you may as well have started from scratch with a clean sheet design why data from space missions isn t immediately available investigators associated with nasa missions are allowed exclusive access for one year after the data is obtained in order to give them an opportunity to analyze the data and publish results without being scooped by people uninvolved in the mission however nasa frequently releases examples in non digital form e g photos to the public early in a mission risks of nuclear rtg power sources for space probes there has been extensive discussion on this topic sparked by attempts to block the galileo and ulysses launches on grounds of the plutonium thermal sources being dangerous numerous studies claim that even in worst case scenarios shuttle explosion during launch or accidental reentry at interplanetary velocities the risks are extremely small two interesting data points are the may loss of two snap b rtgs which landed intact in the pacific ocean after a nimbus b weather satellite failed to reach orbit the fuel was recovered after months with no release of plutonium in april the apollo lunar module reentered the atmosphere and its snap rtg heat source which was jettisoned fell intact into the feet deep tonga trench in the pacific ocean the corrosion resistant materials of the rtg are expected to prevent release of the fuel for a period of time equal to half lives of the pu fuel or about years doe to make your own informed judgement some references you may wish to pursue are a good review of the technical facts and issues is given by daniel salisbury in radiation risk and planetary exploration the rtg controversy planetary report may june pages another good article which also reviews the events preceding galileo s launch showdown at pad b by robert g nichols appeared in the november issue of ad astra both magazines are published by pro space organizations the planetary society and the national space society respectively gordon l chipman jr advanced space nuclear systems aas in developing the space frontier edited by albert naumann and grover alexander univelt p hazards from plutonium toxicity by bernard l cohen health physics vol may page nus corporation safety status report for the ulysses mission risk analysis book document number is nus there is no gpo published jan nasa office of space science and applications final environmental impact statement for the ulysses mission tier no serial number or gpo number but probably available from ntis or nasa june doe u s department of energy transuranic elements in the environment wayne c hanson editor doe document no doe tic government printing office washington d c april impact of the space shuttle on the ozone layer from time to time claims are made that chemicals released from the space shuttle s solid rocket boosters srbs are responsible for a significant amount of damage to the ozone layer studies indicate that they in reality have only a minute impact both in absolute terms and relative to other chemical sources the remainder of this item is a response from the author of the quoted study charles jackman the atmospheric modelling study of the space shuttle effects on the stratosphere involved three independent theoretical groups and was organized by dr michael prather nasa goddard institute for space studies the three groups involved michael prather and maria garcia nasa giss charlie jackman and anne douglass nasa goddard space flight center and malcolm ko and dak sze atmospheric and environmental research inc the effort was to look at the effects of the space shuttle and titan rockets on the stratosphere the following are the estimated sources of stratospheric chlorine industrial sources kilograms year natural sources kilograms year shuttle sources kilograms year the shuttle source assumes space shuttles and titan rockets are launched yearly thus the launches would add less than to the total stratospheric chlorine sources the effect on ozone is minimal global yearly average total ozone would be decreased by this is much less than total ozone variability associated with volcanic activity and solar flares the influence of human made chlorine products on ozone is computed by atmospheric model calculations to be a decrease in globally averaged ozone between and the influence of the space shuttle and titan rockets on the stratosphere is negligible the launch schedule of the space shuttle and titan rockets would need to be increased by over a factor of a hundred in order to have about the same effect on ozone as our increases in industrial halocarbons do at the present time theoretical results of this study have been published in the space shuttle s impact on the stratosphere mj prather mm garcia ar douglass ch jackman m k w ko and n d sze journal of geophysical research charles jackman atmospheric chemistry and dynamics branch code nasa goddard space flight center greenbelt md also see chemical rockets and the environment a mcdonald r bennett j hinshaw and m barnes aerospace america may how long can a human live unprotected in space if you don t try to hold your breath exposure to space for half a minute or so is unlikely to produce permanent injury holding your breath is likely to damage your lungs something scuba divers have to watch out for when ascending and you ll have eardrum trouble if your eustachian tubes are badly plugged up but theory predicts and animal experiments confirm that otherwise exposure to vacuum causes no immediate injury you do not explode your blood does not boil you do not freeze you do not instantly lose consciousness various minor problems sunburn possibly the bends certainly some mild reversible painless swelling of skin and underlying tissue start after ten seconds or so at some point you lose consciousness from lack of oxygen injuries accumulate after perhaps one or two minutes you re dying the limits are not really known references the effect on the chimpanzee of rapid decompression to a near vacuum alfred g koestler ed nasa cr nov experimental animal decompression to a near vacuum environment r w bancroft j e dunn eds report sam tr june usaf school of aerospace medicine brooks afb texas how the challenger astronauts died the challenger shuttle launch was not destroyed in an explosion this is a well documented fact see the rogers commission report for example what looked like an explosion was fuel burning after the external tank came apart the forces on the crew cabin were not sufficient to kill the astronauts never mind destroy their bodies according to the kerwin team s medical forensic report the astronauts were killed when the more or less intact cabin hit the water at circa mph and their bodies then spent several weeks underwater their remains were recovered and after the kerwin team examined them they were sent off to be buried using the shuttle beyond low earth orbit you can t use the shuttle orbiter for missions beyond low earth orbit because it can t get there it is big and heavy and does not carry enough fuel even if you fill part of the cargo bay with tanks furthermore it is not particularly sensible to do so because much of that weight is things like wings which are totally useless except in the immediate vicinity of the earth the shuttle orbiter is highly specialized for travel between earth s surface and low orbit taking it higher is enormously costly and wasteful a much better approach would be to use shuttle subsystems to build a specialized high orbit spacecraft yet another concise answer by henry spencer the face on mars there really is a big rock on mars that looks remarkably like a humanoid face it appears in two different frames of viking orbiter imagery a much more facelike in appearance and the one more often published with the sun degrees above western horizon and a with the sun degrees from the west science writer richard hoagland has championed the idea that the face is artificial intended to resemble a human and erected by an extraterrestrial civilization most other analysts concede that the resemblance is most likely accidental other viking images show a smiley faced crater and a lava flow resembling kermit the frog elsewhere on mars there exists a mars anomalies research society sorry don t know the address to study the face the mars observer mission will carry an extremely high resolution camera and better images of the formation will hopefully settle this question in a few years in the meantime speculation about the face is best carried on in the altnet group alt alien visitors not sci space or sci astro v dipeitro and g molenaar unusual martian surface features mars research p o box glen dale maryland usa by mail r r pozos the face of mars chicago review press account of an interdisciplinary speculative conference hoagland organized to investigate the face r c hoagland the monuments of mars a city on the edge of forever north atlantic books berkeley california usa elaborate discussion of evidence and speculation that formations near the face form a city m j carlotto digital imagery analysis of unusual martian surface features applied optics pp extracts three dimensional model for the face from the d images m j carlotto m c stein a method of searching for artificial objects on planetary surfaces journal of the british interplanetary society vol no may p uses a fractal image analysis model to guess whether the face is artificial b o leary analysis of images of the face on mars and possible intelligent origin jbis vol no may p lights carlotto s model from the two angles and shows it s consistent shows that the face doesn t look facelike if observed from the surface next faq space activist interest research groups space publications
sci.space	space faq interest groups publications archive name space groups last modified date space activist interest research groups and space publications groups aia aerospace industry association professional group with primary membership of major aerospace firms headquartered in the dc area acts as the voice of the aerospace industry and it s opinions are usually backed up by reams of analyses and the reputations of the firms in aia address needed aiaa american institute of aeronautics and astronautics professional association with somewhere about members local chapters around the country largest chapters are dc area members la members san francisco members seattle nw houston and orange county plus student chapters not a union but acts to represent aviation and space professionals engineers managers financial types nationwide holds over conferences a year on space and aviation topics publishes technical journals aerospace journal journal of spacecraft and rockets etc technical reference books and is the source on current aerospace state of the art through their published papers and proceedings also offers continuing education classes on aerospace design has over technical committees and over committees for industry standards aiaa acts as a professional society offers a centralized resume jobs function provides classes on job search offers low cost health and life insurance and lobbies for appropriate legislation aiaa was one of the major organizations pushing for iras individual retirement accounts very active public policy arm works directly with the media congress and government agencies as a legislative liaison and clearinghouse for inquiries about aerospace technology technical issues reasonably non partisan in that they represent the industry as a whole and not a single company organization or viewpoint membership yr student memberships are less american institute of aeronautics and astronautics the aerospace center l enfant promenade sw washington dc amsat develops small satellites since the s for a variety of uses by amateur radio enthusiasts has various publications supplies quicktrak satellite tracking software for pc mac amiga etc amateur satellite corporation amsat p o box washington dc asera australian space engineering and research association an australian non profit organisation to coordinate promote and conduct space r d projects in australia involving both australian and international primarily university collaborators activities include the development of sounding rockets small satellites especially microsatellites high altitude research balloons and appropriate payloads provides student projects at all levels and is open to any person or organisation interested in participating publishes a monthly newsletter and a quarterly technical journal membership a dual subscription subscriptions a newsletter only a journal only asera ltd po box ryde nsw australia email lindley syd dit csiro au bis british interplanetary society probably the oldest pro space group bis publishes two excellent journals spaceflight covering current space activities and the journal of the bis containing technical papers on space activities from near term space probes to interstellar missions bis has published a design study for an interstellar probe called daedalus british interplanetary society south lambeth road london sw sz england no dues information available at present isu international space university isu is a non profit international graduate level educational institution dedicated to promoting the peaceful exploration and development of space through multi cultural and multi disciplinary space education and research for further information on isu s summer session program or permanent campus activities please send messages to information isu isunet edu or contact the isu executive offices at international space university massachusetts avenue th floor cambridge ma phone fax l society defunct founded by keith and carolyn henson in to advocate space colonization its major success was in preventing us participation in the un moon treaty in the late s merged with the national space institute in forming the national space society nsc national space club open for general membership but not well known at all primarily comprised of professionals in aerospace industry acts as information conduit and social gathering group active in dc with a chapter in la monthly meetings with invited speakers who are heavy hitters in the field annual outlook on space conference is the definitive source of data on government annual planning for space programs cheap membership approx yr address needed nss the national space society nss is a pro space group distinguished by its network of local chapters supports a general agenda of space development and man in space including the nasa space station publishes ad astra a monthly glossy magazine and runs shuttle launch tours and space hotline telephone services a major sponsor of the annual space development conference associated with spacecause and spacepac political lobbying organizations membership youth senior regular national space society membership department pennsylvania avenue s e washington dc planetary society founded by carl sagan the largest space advocacy group publishes planetary report a monthly glossy and has supported seti hardware development financially agenda is primarily support of space science recently amended to include an international manned mission to mars the planetary society north catalina avenue pasadena ca membership year ssi the space studies institute founded by dr gerard o neill physicist freeman dyson took over the presidency of ssi after o neill s death in publishes ssi update a bimonthly newsletter describing work in progress conducts a research program including mass drivers lunar mining processes and simulants composites from lunar materials solar power satellites runs the biennial princeton conference on space manufacturing membership year senior associates year and up fund most ssi research space studies institute rosedale road po box princeton nj seds students for the exploration and development of space founded in at mit and princeton seds is a chapter based pro space organization at high schools and universities around the world entirely student run each chapter is independent and coordinates its own local activities nationally seds runs a scholarship competition design contests and holds an annual international conference and meeting in late summer students for the exploration and development of space mit room w massachusetts avenue cambridge ma email odyssey athena mit edu dues determined by local chapter spacecause a political lobbying organization and part of the nss family of organizations publishes a bi monthly newsletter spacecause news annual dues is members also receive a discount on the space activist s handbook activities to support pro space legislation include meeting with political leaders and interacting with legislative staff spacecause primarily operates in the legislative process national office west coast office spacecause spacecause pennsylvania ave se ocean park blvd washington d c suite s santa monica ca spacepac a political action committee and part of the nss family of organizations spacepac researches issues policies and candidates each year updates the space activist s handbook current handbook price is while spacepac does not have a membership it does have regional contacts to coordinate local activity spacepac primarily operates in the election process contributing money and volunteers to pro space candidates spacepac pennsylvania ave se washington dc united states space foundation a public non profit organization supported by member donations and dedicated to promoting international education understanding and support of space the group hosts an annual conference for teachers and others interested in education other projects include developing lesson plans that use space to teach other basic skills such as reading publishes spacewatch a monthly b w glossy magazine of ussf events and general space news annual dues charter first year individual teacher college student hs jr high elementary founder life member united states space foundation po box colorado springs co world space foundation has been designing and building a solar sail spacecraft for longer than any similar group many jpl employees lend their talents to this project wsf also provides partial funding for the palomar sky survey an extremely successful search for near earth asteroids publishes foundation news and foundation astronautics notebook each a quarterly page newsletter contributing associate minimum of year but more money always welcome to support projects world space foundation post office box y south pasadena california publications aerospace daily mcgraw hill very good coverage of aerospace and space issues approx yr air space smithsonian bimonthly magazine box boulder co year us year international esa the european space agency publishes a variety of periodicals generally available free of charge a document describing them in more detail is in the ames space archive in pub space faq esapublications final frontier mass market bimonthly magazine history book reviews general interest articles e g the wonders of the solar system everything you always wanted to know about military space programs etc final frontier publishing co po box mt morris il year us canada elsewhere space news weekly magazine covers us civil and military space programs said to have good political and business but spotty technical coverage space news springfield va year may have discounts for nss ssi members journal of the astronautical sciences and space times publications of the american astronautical society no details aas business office rolling mill place suite springfield va gps world semi monthly reports on current and new uses of gps news and analysis of the system and policies affecting it and technical and product issues shaping gps applications gps world willamette st p o box eugene or free to qualified individuals write for free sample copy innovation space technology free published by the nasa office of advanced concepts and technology a revised version of the nasa office of commercial programs newsletter planetary encounter in depth technical coverage of planetary missions with diagrams lists of experiments interviews with people directly involved world spaceflight news in depth technical coverage of near earth spaceflight mostly covers the shuttle payload manifests activity schedules and post mission assessment reports for every mission box sewell nj year us canada year elsewhere space bi monthly magazine british aerospace trade journal very good year space calendar weekly newsletter space daily space fax daily newsletter short paragraph news notes available online for a fee unknown space technology investor commercial space news irregular internet column on aspects of commercial space business free also limited fax and paper edition p o box seal beach ca all the following are published by phillips business information inc montrose road potomac mc aerospace financial news year defense daily very good coverage of space and defense issues year space business news bi weekly very good overview of space business activities year space exploration technology bi weekly year space station news bi weekly year undocumented groups anyone who would care to write up descriptions of the following groups or others not mentioned for inclusion in the answer is encouraged to do so aas american astronautical society other groups not mentioned above next faq how to become an astronaut
sci.space	space faq how to become an astronaut archive name space astronaut last modified date how to become an astronaut first the short form authored by henry spencer then an official nasa announcement q how do i become an astronaut a we will assume you mean a nasa astronaut since it s probably impossible for a non russian to get into the cosmonaut corps paying passengers are not professional cosmonauts and the other nations have so few astronauts and fly even fewer that you re better off hoping to win a lottery becoming a shuttle pilot requires lots of fast jet experience which means a military flying career forget that unless you want to do it anyway so you want to become a shuttle mission specialist if you aren t a us citizen become one that is a must after that the crucial thing to remember is that the demand for such jobs vastly exceeds the supply nasa s problem is not finding qualified people but thinning the lineup down to manageable length it is not enough to be qualified you must avoid being dis qualified for any reason many of them in principle quite irrelevant to the job get a ph d specialize in something that involves getting your hands dirty with equipment not just paper and pencil forget computer programming entirely it will be done from the ground for the fore seeable future degree s in one field plus work experience in another seems to be a frequent winner be in good physical condition with good eyesight do not get a radial keratomy or similar hack to improve your vision nobody knows what sudden pressure changes would do to rked eyes and long term effects are poorly understood for that matter avoid any other significant medical unknowns if you can pass a jet pilot physical you should be okay if you can t your chances are poor practise public speaking and be conservative and conformist in appearance and actions you ve got a tough selling job ahead trying to convince a cautious conservative selection committee that you are better than hundreds of other applicants and also that you will be a credit to nasa after you are hired public relations is a significant part of the job and nasa s image is very prim and proper the image you want is squeaky clean workaholic yuppie remember also that you will need a security clearance at some point and security considers everybody guilty until proven innocent keep your nose clean get a pilot s license and make flying your number one hobby experienced pilots are known to be favored even for non pilot jobs work for nasa of astronauts selected between and were military or nasa employees and the remaining two were a nasa consultant and mae jemison the first black female astronaut if you apply from outside nasa and miss but they offer you a job at nasa take it sometimes in the past this has meant you do look interesting but we want to know you a bit better first think space they want highly motivated people so lose no chance to demonstrate motivation keep trying many astronauts didn t make it the first time nasa national aeronautics and space administration lyndon b johnson space center houston texas announcement for mission specialist and pilot astronaut candidates astronaut candidate program the national aeronautics and space administration nasa has a need for pilot astronaut candidates and mission specialist astronaut candidates to support the space shuttle program nasa is now accepting on a continuous basis and plans to select astronaut candidates as needed persons from both the civilian sector and the military services will be considered all positions are located at the lyndon b johnson space center in houston texas and will involved a year training and evaluation program space shuttle program description the numerous successful flights of the space shuttle have demonstrated that operation and experimental investigations in space are becoming routine the space shuttle orbiter is launched into and maneuvers in the earth orbit performing missions lastling up to days it then returns to earth and is ready for another flight with payloads and flight crew the orbiter performs a variety of orbital missions including deployment and retrieval of satellites service of existing satellites operation of specialized laboratories astronomy earth sciences materials processing manufacturing and other operations these missions will eventually include the development and servicing of a permanent space station the orbiter also provides a staging capability for using higher orbits than can be achieved by the orbiter itself users of the space shuttle s capabilities are both domestic and foreign and include government agencies and private industries the crew normally consists of five people the commander the pilot and three mission specialists on occasion additional crew members are assigned the commander pilot and mission specialists are nasa astronauts pilot astronaut pilot astronauts server as both space shuttle commanders and pilots during flight the commander has onboard responsibility for the vehicle crew mission success and safety in flight the pilot assists the commander in controlling and operating the vehicle in addition the pilot may assist in the deployment and retrieval of satellites utilizing the remote manipulator system in extra vehicular activities and other payload operations mission specialist astronaut mission specialist astronauts working with the commander and pilot have overall responsibility for the coordination of shuttle operations in the areas of crew activity planning consumables usage and experiment and payload operations mission specialists are required to have a detailed knowledge of shuttle systems as well as detailed knowledge of the operational characteristics mission requirements and objectives and supporting systems and equipment for each of the experiments to be conducted on their assigned missions mission specialists will perform extra vehicular activities payload handling using the remote manipulator system and perform or assist in specific experimental operations astronaut candidate program basic qualification requirements applicants must meet the following minimum requirements prior to submitting an application mission specialist astronaut candidate bachelor s degree from an accredited institution in engineering biological science physical science or mathematics degree must be followed by at least three years of related progressively responsible professional experience an advanced degree is desirable and may be substituted for part or all of the experience requirement master s degree year doctoral degree years quality of academic preparation is important ability to pass a nasa class ii space physical which is similar to a civilian or military class ii flight physical and includes the following specific standards distant visual acuity or better uncorrected correctable to each eye blood pressure measured in sitting position height between and inches pilot astronaut candidate bachelor s degree from an accredited institution in engineering biological science physical science or mathematics degree must be followed by at least three years of related progressively responsible professional experience an advanced degree is desirable quality of academic preparation is important at least hours pilot in command time in jet aircraft flight test experience highly desirable ability to pass a nasa class i space physical which is similar to a military or civilian class i flight physical and includes the following specific standards distant visual acuity or better uncorrected correctable to each eye blood pressure measured in sitting position height between and inches citizenship requirements applications for the astronaut candidate program must be citizens of the united states note on academic requirements applicants for the astronaut candidate program must meet the basic education requirements for nasa engineering and scientific positions specifically successful completion of standard professional curriculum in an accredited college or university leading to at least a bachelor s degree with major study in an appropriate field of engineering biological science physical science or mathematics the following degree fields while related to engineering and the sciences are not considered qualifying degrees in technology engineering technology aviation technology medical technology etc degrees in psychology except for clinical psychology physiological psychology or experimental psychology which are qualifying degrees in nursing degrees in social sciences geography anthropology archaeology etc degrees in aviation aviation management or similar fields application procedures civilian the application package may be obtained by writing to nasa johnson space center astronaut selection office attn ahx houston tx civilian applications will be accepted on a continuous basis when nasa decides to select additional astronaut candidates consideration will be given only to those applications on hand on the date of decision is made applications received after that date will be retained and considered for the next selection applicants will be notified annually of the opportunity to update their applications and to indicate continued interest in being considered for the program those applicants who do not update their applications annually will be dropped from consideration and their applications will not be retained after the preliminary screening of applications additional information may be requested for some applicants and person listed on the application as supervisors and references may be contacted active duty military active duty military personnel must submit applications to their respective military service and not directly to nasa application procedures will be disseminated by each service selection personal interviews and thorough medical evaluations will be required for both civilian and military applicants under final consideration once final selections have been made all applicants who were considered will be notified of the outcome of the process selection rosters established through this process may be used for the selection of additional candidates during a one year period following their establishment general program requirements selected applicants will be designated astronaut candidates and will be assigned to the astronaut office at the johnson space center houston texas the astronaut candidates will undergo a year training and evaluation period during which time they will be assigned technical or scientific responsibilities allowing them to contribute substantially to ongoing programs they will also participate in the basic astronaut training program which is designed to develop the knowledge and skills required for formal mission training upon selection for a flight pilot astronaut candidates will maintain proficiency in nasa aircraft during their candidate period applicants should be aware that selection as an astronaut candidate does not insure selection as an astronaut final selection as an astronaut will depend on satisfactory completion of the year training and evaluation period civilian candidates who successfully complete the training and evaluation and are selected as astronauts will become permanent federal employees and will be expected to remain with nasa for a period of at least five years civilian candidates who are not selected as astronauts may be placed in other positions within nasa depending upon agency requirements and manpower constraints at that time successful military candidates will be detailed to nasa for a specified tour of duty nasa has an affirmative action program goal of having qualified minorities and women among those qualified as astronaut candidates therefore qualified minorities and women are encouraged to apply pay and benefits civilians salaries for civilian astronaut candidates are based on the federal governments general schedule pay scales for grades gs through gs and are set in accordance with each individuals academic achievements and experience other benefits include vacation and sick leave a retirement plan and participation in group health and life insurance plans military selected military personnel will be detailed to the johnson space center but will remain in an active duty status for pay benefits leave and other similar military matters next faq orbital and planetary launch services
sci.space	diffs to sci space sci astro frequently asked questions archive name space diff diffs since last faq posting in posting order these are hand edited context diffs do not attempt to use them to patch old copies of the faq diff t c r faq intro tmp rcst a thu apr faq intro thu apr nasa langley technical reports nasa spacelink national space science data center space and planetary image facility space telescope science institute electronic info service starcat astronomical databases llnl great exploration lunar prospector lunar science and activities orbiting earth satellite histories spacecraft models rocket propulsion spacecraft design diff t c r faq net tmp rcst a thu apr faq net thu apr elements are sent out on the list from dr kelso jsc and other sources as they are released email to elements request telesoft com to join gps digest is a moderated list for discussion of the global positioning system and other satellite navigation positioning systems email to gps request esseye si com to join space investors is a list for information relevant to investing in space related companies email vincent cate vac cs cmu edu to join if in fact you should should learn of unauthorized access contact nasa personnel claims have been made on this news group about fraud and waste none have ever been substantiated to any significant degree readers detecting fraud waste abuse or mismanagement should contact the nasa inspector general hours at can be anonymous or write nasa inspector general p o box l enfant plaza station washington dc next faq online and some offline sources of images data etc diff t c r faq data tmp rcst a thu apr faq data thu apr telephone email address request nssdca gsfc nasa gov space and planetary image facility available hours a day via anonymous ftp from pioneer unm edu has approximately cd rom s full of imagery raw and tabular data to start get the file pioneer unm edu pub info beginner info this will hopefully give you all of the information you need to get data from their machine beginner info has been translated to other languages you should look inside pub info for the particular language that meets your needs contact help pioneer unm edu space telescope science institute electronic information service diff t c r faq math tmp rcst a thu apr faq math thu apr gives series to compute positions accurate to arc minute for a period or years from now pluto is included but stated to have an accuracy of only about arc minutes multiyear interactive computer almanac mica produced by the us naval observatory valid for years outside us available for ibm order pb hdv or macintosh order pb hdv from the ntis sales desk i believe this is intended to replace the usno s interactive computer ephemeris interactive computer ephemeris from the us naval observatory distributed on ibm pc floppy disks willmann bell covers dates diff t c r faq references tmp rcst a thu apr faq references thu apr us naval observatory usno bulletin board via modem general nautical almanac office info on the interactive computer ephemeris willmann bell p o box sdi s ssrt single stage rocket technology project has funded a suborbital technology demonstrator called dc x that should fly in mid further development towards an operational single stage to orbit vehicle is uncertain at present for considerably more detail on the ssrt program get the document ames arc nasa gov pub space faq deltaclipper by anonymous ftp or through the email server how to name a star after a person official names are decided by committees of the international sdi s ssrt single stage rocket technology project has funded a suborbital technology demonstrator called dc x that should fly in mid further development towards an operational single stage to orbit vehicle called delta clipper is uncertain at present an collection of pictures and files relating to dc x is available by anonymous ftp or email server in the directory bongo cc utexas edu pub delta clipper chris w johnson chrisj emx cc utexas edu maintains the archive how to name a star after a person official names are decided by committees of the international university press information about the lunar orbiter missions including maps of the coverage of the lunar nearside and farside by various orbiters orbiting earth satellite histories a list of earth orbiting satellites that are still in orbit is available by anonymous ftp in ames arc nasa gov pub space faq satellites spacecraft models diff t c r faq addresses tmp rcst a thu apr faq addresses thu apr the latter an sf is useless employees are caltech employees contractors and for the most part have similar responsibilities they offer an alternative to funding after other nasa centers a fact sheet and description of jpl is available by anonymous ftp in ames arc nasa gov pub space faq jpldescription nasa johnson manned space center jsc houston tx diff t c r faq new probes tmp rcst a thu apr faq new probes thu apr team isas nasda launch schedules press kits asuka astro d isas japan x ray astronomy satellite launched into earth orbit on equipped with large area wide wavelength angstrom x ray telescope x ray ccd cameras and imaging gas scintillation proportional counters cassini saturn orbiter and titan atmosphere probe cassini is a joint nasa esa project designed to accomplish an exploration of the saturnian system with its cassini saturn orbiter and huygens titan probe cassini magellan venus radar mapping mission has mapped almost the entire surface at high resolution currently in mapping cycle collecting a global gravity map mars observer mars orbiter including m pixel resolution camera launched on a titan iii tos booster mo is currently in transit to mars arriving on operations will start for one martian year days topex poseidon joint us french earth observing satellite launched in august on an ariane booster the primary objective of the topex poseidon project is to make precise and accurate global observations of the sea level for several years substantially increasing understanding of global ocean dynamics the satellite also magellan venus radar mapping mission has mapped almost the entire surface at high resolution currently collecting a global gravity map mars observer mars orbiter including m pixel resolution camera launched on a titan iii tos booster mo is currently in transit to mars arriving on operations will start for one martian year days topex poseidon joint us french earth observing satellite launched on an ariane booster the primary objective of the topex poseidon project is to make precise and accurate global observations of the sea level for several years substantially increasing understanding of global ocean dynamics the satellite also diff t c r faq astronaut tmp rcst a thu apr faq astronaut thu apr specific standards distant visual acuity or better uncorrected correctable to each eye blood pressure measured in sitting position height between and inches pilot astronaut candidate specific standards distant visual acuity or better uncorrected correctable to each eye blood pressure measured in sitting position height between and inches pilot astronaut candidate
sci.space	space faq introduction archive name space intro last modified date frequently asked questions on sci space sci astro introduction this series of linked messages is periodically posted to the usenet groups sci space and sci astro in an attempt to provide good answers to frequently asked questions and other reference material which is worth preserving if you have corrections or answers to other frequently asked questions that you would like included in this posting send email to leech cs unc edu jon leech if you don t want to see the faq add frequently asked questions to your kill file for this group if you re not reading this with a newsreader that can kill articles by subject you re out of luck the faq volume is excessive right now and will hopefully be trimmed down by rewriting and condensing over time the faq postings are available in the ames space archive in faq faq good summaries will be accepted in place of the answers given here the point of this is to circulate existing information and avoid rehashing old answers better to build on top than start again nothing more depressing than rehashing old topics for the th time references are provided because they give more complete information than any short generalization questions fall into three basic types where do i find some information about space try your local public library first the net is not a good place to ask for general information ask individuals by email if you must there are other sources use them too the net is a place for open ended discussion i have an idea which would improve space flight hope you aren t surprised but out of have usually been thought of before again contact a direct individual source for evaluation nasa fields thousands of these each day miscellanous queries these are addressed on a case by case basis in the following series of faq postings suggestions for better netiquette read news announce newusers if you re on usenet minimize cross references do you really need to edit subject lines especially if you re taking a tangent send mail instead avoid posting follow ups mail message worth posts internet mail readers send requests to add drop to space request not space read all available articles before posting a follow up check all references cut down attributed articles leave only the points you re responding to remove signatures and headers summarize put a return address in the body signature of your message mail or article state your institution etc don t assume the reply function of mailers will work use absolute dates post in a timely way don t post what everyone will get on tv anyway some editors and window systems do character count line wrapping keep lines under characters for those using ascii terminals use carriage returns index to linked postings i ve attempted to break the postings up into related areas there isn t a keyword index yet the following lists the major subject areas in each posting only those containing astronomy related material are posted to sci astro indicated by following the posting number contents introduction suggestions for better netiquette index to linked postings notes on addresses phone numbers etc contributors network resources overview mailing lists periodically updated information warning about non public networks online and some offline sources of images data etc introduction viewing images online archives nasa ames nasa astrophysics data system nasa jet propulsion lab mission information and images nasa langley technical reports nasa spacelink national space science data center space telescope science institute electronic info service starcat astronomical databases astronomy programs orbital element sets space digest landsat nasa photos planetary maps cometary orbits performing calculations and interpreting data formats computing spacecraft orbits and trajectories computing planetary positions computing crater diameters from earth impacting asteroids map projections and spherical trignometry performing n body simulations efficiently interpreting the fits image format sky unix ephemeris program three dimensional star galaxy coordinates references on specific areas publishers of space astronomy material careers in the space industry dc x single stage to orbit ssto program how to name a star after a person llnl great exploration lunar prospector lunar science and activities orbiting earth satellite histories spacecraft models rocket propulsion spacecraft design esoteric propulsion schemes solar sails lasers fusion spy satellites space shuttle computer systems seti computation signal processing amateur satellies weather satellites tides constants and equations for calculations astronomical mnemonics contacting nasa esa and other space agencies companies nasa centers arianespace esa nasda soyuzkarta space camp space commerce corporation spacehab spot image other commercial space businesses space shuttle answers launch schedules tv coverage shuttle launchings and landings schedules and how to see them why does the shuttle roll just after liftoff how to receive the nasa tv channel nasa select amateur radio frequencies for shuttle missions solid rocket booster fuel composition planetary probes historical missions us planetary missions mariner venus mars mercury flybys and orbiters pioneer moon sun venus jupiter and saturn flybys and orbiters ranger lunar lander and impact missions lunar orbiter lunar surface photography surveyor lunar soft landers viking mars orbiters and landers voyager outer planet flybys soviet planetary missions soviet lunar probes soviet venus probes soviet mars probes japanese planetary missions planetary mission references upcoming planetary probes missions and schedules cassini galileo magellan mars observer topex poseidon ulysses other space science missions proposed missions controversial questions what happened to the saturn v plans why data from space missions isn t immediately available risks of nuclear rtg power sources for space probes impact of the space shuttle on the ozone layer how long can a human live unprotected in space how the challenger astronauts died using the shuttle beyond low earth orbit the face on mars space activist interest research groups and space publications groups publications undocumented groups how to become an astronaut orbital and planetary launch services notes on addresses phone numbers etc unless otherwise specified telephone numbers addresses and so on are for the united states of america non us readers should remember to add the country code for telephone calls etc credits eugene miya started a series of linked faq postings some years ago which inspired and was largely absorbed into this set peter yee and ron baalke have and continue to spend a lot of their own time setting up the space archives at nasa ames and forwarding official nasa announcements many other people have contributed material to this list in the form of old postings to sci space and sci astro which i ve edited please let me know if corrections need to be made contributors i ve managed to keep track of are mcimail com francis reddy map projections ad yfn ysu edu steven fisk publication refs akerman bill phy queensu ca richard akerman crater diameters alweigel athena mit edu lisa weigel seds info aoab emx utexas edu srinivas bettadpur tides awpaeth watcgl waterloo edu alan wm paeth map projections aws iti org allen w sherzer great exploration baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov ron baalke planetary probe schedules bankst rata vuw ac nz timothy banks map projections variable star analysis archive bern uni trier de jochen bern german mnemonic translation brosen pioneer arc nasa gov bernie rosen space camp bschlesinger nssdca gsfc nasa gov barry schlesinger fits format cew venera isi edu craig e ward space group contact info chapin cbnewsc att com tom chapin planetary positions cunnida tenet edu d alan cunningham nasa spacelink cyamamot kilroy jpl nasa gov cliff yamamoto orbital elements datri convex com anthony datri pds vicar viewing software daver sjc mentorg com dave rickel orbit formulae dlbres pc usl edu phil fraering propulsion eder hsvaic boeing com dani eder saturn v plans srbs eugene eos arc nasa gov eugene n miya introduction nasa contact info started faq postings french isu isunet edu patrick m french space group contact info g telesoft com gary morris amateur radio info gaetz cfa harvard edu terry gaetz n body calculations orbital dynamics grandi noao edu steve grandi planetary positions greer utd dnet utadnx utspan span nasa gov dale m greer constants henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer survival in vacuum astronaut how to challenger disaster publication refs dc x higgins fnal bitnet william higgins rtgs publishers shuttle landings spysats propulsion face on mars hmueller cssun tamu edu hal mueller map projections orbital dynamics jbh uxa cso uiuc edu josh hopkins launch services jim pnet cts com jim bowery propulsion launch services jnhead pirl lpl arizona edu james n head atmospheric scale heights jscotti lpl arizona edu jim scotti planetary positions kcarroll zoo toronto edu kieran a carroll refs for spacecraft design ken orion bitnet kenneth ng rtgs kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov ken jenks shuttle roll manuever klaes verga enet dec com larry klaes planetary probe history leech cs unc edu jon leech crater diameters lfa ssi com lou adornato orbital dynamics maury markowitz egsgate fidonet org maury markowitz propulsion max west darkside com erik max francis equations mbellon mcdurb urbana gould com n body calculations mcconley phoenix princeton edu marc wayne mcconley space careers msb sq com mark brader mariner info mwm cmu edu mark maimone space digest nickw syma sussex ac uk dr nick watkins models spysats ohainaut eso org olivier r hainaut publishers starcat oneil aio jsc nasa gov graham o neil lunar prospector panama cup portal com kenneth w durham cometary orbits iau paul blase nss fidonet org paul blase propulsion pjs plato jpl nasa gov peter scott rtgs pschleck unomaha edu paul w schleck amsat arrl contact info rdb mel cocam oz au rodney brown propulsion refs rja m phil cs virginia edu ran atkinson ftpable astro programs rjungcla ihlpb att com r michael jungclas models roelle sigi jhuapl edu curt roelle german mnemonic translation seal leonardo jpl nasa gov david seal cassini mission schedule shafer skipper dfrf nasa gov mary shafer photos shuttle landings smith sndpit enet dec com willie smith photos stephen gpwd gp co nz stephen dixon shuttle audio frequencies sterner warper jhuapl edu ray sterner planetary positions stooke vaxr sscl uwo ca phil stooke planetary maps ted anderson transarc com ted anderson propulsion terry astro as utexas edu terry hancock nasa center info thorson typhoon atmos colostate edu bill thorson fits info tm b andrew cmu edu todd l masco space digest tom ssd csd harris com tom horsley refs for algorithms veikko makela helsinki fi veikko makela orbital element sets wales larrison ofa fidonet org wales larrison groups publications wayne csri utoronto ca wayne hayes constants weemba libra wistar upenn edu matthew p wiener voyager history yamada yscvax ysc go jp yoshiro yamada isas nasda missions yee ames arc nasa gov peter yee ames archive server propulsion in net memoriam ted flinn next faq network resources
sci.space	space faq network resources archive name space net last modified date network resources overview you may be reading this document on any one of an amazing variety of computers so much of the material below may not apply to you in general however systems connected to the net fall in one of three categories internet usenet or bitnet electronic mail may be sent between these networks and other resources available on one of these networks are sometimes accessible from other networks by email sent to special servers the space and astronomy discussion groups actually are composed of several mechanisms with mostly transparent connections between them one mechanism is the mailing list in which mail is sent to a central distribution point which relays it to all recipients of the list in addition to the general lists for space called space digest for internet users and space on bitnet there are a number of more specialized mailing lists described below a second mechanism is usenet netnews this is somewhat like a bulletin board operating on each system which is a part of the net netnews separates contributions into hundreds of different categories based on a group name the groups dealing most closely with space topics are called sci space news sci space sci space shuttle sci astro and talk politics space contributors post submissions called articles in netnews terminology on their local machine which sends it to other nearby machines similarly articles sent from nearby machines are stored locally and may be forwarded to other systems so that an article is posted locally and eventually reaches all the usenet sites interested in receiving the news group to which the article was posted gateway machines redirect the usenet sci space group into internet and bitnet mailing lists and vice versa the other usenet groups are not accessible as mailing lists if you can receive netnews its more flexible interface and access to a wider range of material usually make it the preferred option mailing lists space digest is the main internet list and is now being run by the international space university in only its second change of management in over a decade email space request isu isunet edu message body should be in the format subscribe space john public to join note that the moderated space magazine list is defunct at present for lack of a moderator old copies of space digest since its inception in are available by anonymous ftp retrieve julius cs qub ac uk pub spacedigestarchive readme for further details elements is a moderated list for fast distribution of space shuttle keplerian elements before and during shuttle flights nasa two line elements are sent out on the list from dr kelso jsc and other sources as they are released email to elements request telesoft com to join gps digest is a moderated list for discussion of the global positioning system and other satellite navigation positioning systems email to gps request esseye si com to join space investors is a list for information relevant to investing in space related companies email vincent cate vac cs cmu edu to join space tech is a list for more technical discussion of space topics discussion has included esoteric propulsion technologies asteroid capture starflight orbital debris removal etc email to space tech request cs cmu edu to join archives of old digests and selected excerpts are available by anonymous ftp from gs sp cs cmu edu in usr anon public space tech or by email to space tech request if you don t have ftp access seds l is a bitnet list for members of students for the exploration and development of space and other interested parties email listserv tamvm bitnet with a message saying subscribe seds l your name email saying index seds l to list the archive contents sedsnews is a bitnet list for news items press releases shuttle status reports and the like this duplicates material which is also found in space digest sci space sci space shuttle and sci astro email listserv tamvm bitnet saying subscribe sedsnews your name to join email saying index sedsnews to list the archive contents ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov runs a mailing list which carries the contents of the sci space news usenet group email him to join the list as a general note please mail to the request address to get off a mailing list space digest for example relays many inappropriate please remove me from this list messages which are sent to the list address rather than the request address periodically updated information in addition to this faq list a broad variety of topical information is posted to the net unless otherwise noted in the new group sci space news created for this purpose please remember that the individuals posting this information are performing a service for all net readers and don t take up their time with frivolous requests acronyms garrett wollman wollman uvm edu posts an acronym list around the first of each month astro ftp list veikko makela veikko makela helsinki fi posts a monthly list of anonymous ftp servers containing astronomy and space related material to sci space and sci astro aviation week henry spencer henry zoo toronto edu posts summaries of space related stories in the weekly aviation week and space technology buying telescopes ronnie kon ronnie cisco com posts a guide to buying telescopes to sci astro electronic journal of the asa don barry don chara gsu edu posts the monthly electronic journal of the astronomical society of the atlantic to sci astro flight international swaraj jeyasingh sjeyasin axion bt co uk posts summaries of space related news from flight international this focuses more on non us space activities than aviation week large astronomical projects robert bunge rbunge access digex com posts a list describing many large telescope projects either being considered or in the works to sci astro nasa headline news shuttle reports peter yee yee ames arc nasa gov posts a variety of nasa material including nasa headline news with the schedule for nasa select shuttle payload briefings and flight manifests and ksc shuttle status reports for usenet users much of this material appears in the group sci space shuttle nasa updates ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov posts frequent updates from jpl ames and other centers on the ulysses gailileo pioneer magellan landsat and other missions orbital element sets ts kelso tkelso blackbird afit af mil posts orbital elements from nasa prediction bulletins mike rose mrose stsci edu posts orbital elements for the hubble space telescope to sci astro jost jahn j jahn abbs hanse de posts ephemerides for asteroids comets conjunctions and encounters to sci astro satellite launches richard langley lang unb ca posts spacewarn bulletin which describes recent launch orbital decay information and satellites which are useful for scientific activities recent bulletins are available by anonymous ftp from nssdca gsfc nasa gov in anon dir active spx shuttle manifest ken hollis gandalf pro electric cts com posts a compressed version of the space shuttle launch manifest to sci space shuttle this includes dates times payloads and information on how to see launches and landings solar activity cary oler oler hg uleth ca posts solar terrestrial reports describing solar activity and its effect on the earth to sci space the report is issued in part from data released by the space enviroment services center boulder colorado the intro document needed to understand these reports is available by anonymous ftp from solar stanford edu in pub understanding solar terrestrial reports nic funet fi also has this document in pub misc rec radio shortwave solarreports and is an archive site for the reports please note this site is in europe and the connection to the us is only kb a new primary archive site xi uleth ca has recently been established and will be actively supported soviet space activities glenn chapman glennc cs sfu ca posts summaries of soviet space activities space activist newsletter allen sherzer aws iti org posts a newsletter one small step for a space activist to talk politics space it describes current legislative activity affecting nasa and commercial space activities space events calendar ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov posts a calendar including anniversaries conferences launch dates meteor showers and eclipses and other space related events space news john magliacane kd bd ka qhd uucp posts spacenews covering amsats noaa and other weather satellites and other ham information to rec radio amateur misc and sci space space report jonathan mcdowell mcdowell cfa harvard edu posts jonathan s space report covering launches landings reentries status reports satellite activities etc toward bev freed freed nss fidonet org posts toward a weekly global news summary reprinted from space calendar magazine warning about non public networks included at the suggestion of eugene miya who wrote the item nasa has an internal system of unclassified electronic mail and bulletin boards this system is not open for public use specifically nasa personnel and procurement operations are regarded with some sensitivity contractors must renegotiate their contracts the fair and open procurement act does not look kindly to those having inside information contractors and outsiders caught using this type of information can expect severe penalities unauthorized access attempts may subject you to a fine and or imprisonment in accordance with title usc section if in fact you should should learn of unauthorized access contact nasa personnel claims have been made on this news group about fraud and waste none have ever been substantiated to any significant degree readers detecting fraud waste abuse or mismanagement should contact the nasa inspector general hours at can be anonymous or write nasa inspector general p o box l enfant plaza station washington dc next faq online and some offline sources of images data etc
sci.space	space faq data sources archive name space data last modified date online and other sources of images data etc introduction a wide variety of images data catalogs information releases and other material dealing with space and astronomy may be found on the net a few sites offer direct dialup access or remote login access while the remainder support some form of file transfer many sites are listed as providing anonymous ftp this refers to the file transfer protocol on the internet sites not connected to the internet cannot use ftp directly but there are a few automated ftp servers which operates via email send mail containing only the word help to ftpmail decwrl dec com or bitftp pucc princeton edu and the servers will send you instructions on how to make requests the sources with the broadest selection of material are the nasa ames space archive and the national space science data center don t even ask for images to be posted to the net the data volume is huge and nobody wants to spend the time on it viewing images the possible combinations of image formats and machines is forebodingly large and i won t attempt to cover common formats gif etc here to read pds and vicar and many other formats on unix systems running x use xv available by anonymous ftp from export lcs mit edu in contrib xv tar z and the other standard x ftp sites the faq for the usenet group alt binaries pictures discusses image formats and how to get image viewing software a copy of this document is available by anonymous ftp from the usenet faq archives at pit manager mit edu in directory pub usenet alt binaries pictures online archives nasa ames extensive archives are maintained at nasa ames and are available via anonymous ftp or an email server these archives include many images and a wide variety of documents including this faq list nasa press releases shuttle launch advisories and mission status reports please note that these are not maintained on an official basis ftp users should connect to ames arc nasa gov and look in pub space pub space index contains a listing of files available in the archive the index is about k by itself to access the archives by email send a letter to archive server ames arc nasa gov or ames archive server in the subject of your letter or in the body use commands like send space index send space shuttle ss the capitalization of the subdirectory names is important all are in caps only text files are handled by the email server at present use one of the ftp email servers described in the introduction to this section for images or programs the magellan venus and voyager jupiter saturn and uranus cd rom image disks have been put online in the cdrom and cdrom directories the disks will be rotated on a weekly basis thousands of images are available in these collections the gif directory contains images in gif format the vicar directory contains magellan images in vicar format these are also available in the gif directory a pc program capable of displaying these files is found in the imdisp directory see the item viewing images below the nasa media guide describes the various nasa centers and how to contact their public affairs officers this may be useful when pursuing specific information it s in misc media guide any problems with the archive server should be reported to peter yee yee ames arc nasa gov nasa astrophysics data system the ads is a distributed data retrieval system which is easy to use and provides uniform access to ground based and space based astronomy data from nasa data centers across the country it currently has over data catalogs of radio infrared optical uv and x ray data which can be queried by position or any other parameter in the catalog the ads also provides tools to manipulate and plot tabular results in addition ads has a beta version of an abstracts service which allows users to query over abstracts of astronomy papers since by authors keywords title words or abstract text words ads use requires direct internet access for more info and to sign up to become a user email ads cuads coloradu edu the user s guide and quickstart guide are available by anonymous ftp to sao ftp harvard edu in directory pub ads ads user guide postscript files contact carolyn stern grant stern cfa harvard edu nasa jet propulsion lab mission information and images pubinfo jpl nasa gov is an anonymous ftp site operated by the jpl public information office containing news releases status reports fact sheets images and other data on jpl missions it may also be reached by modem at no parity data bits stop bit contact newsdesk jplpost jpl nasa gov or phone nasa langley technical reports techreports larc nasa gov is an anonymous ftp site offering technical reports to get started cd to directory pub techreports larc and retrieve files readme and abstracts most files are compressed postscript the reports are also in a wais database with the following description source version ip name techreports larc nasa gov tcp port database name nasa larc abs cost cost unit free maintainer m l nelson larc nasa gov description nasa langley research center technical reports contact tr admin techreports larc nasa gov nasa spacelink spacelink is an online service located at marshall space flight center in huntsville alabama the system is specifically designed for teachers the data base is arranged to provide easy access to current and historical information on nasa aeronautics space research and technology transfer information also included are suggested classroom activities that incorporate information on nasa projects to teach a number of scientific principles unlike bulletin board systems nasa spacelink does not provide for interaction between callers however it does allow teachers and other callers to leave questions and comments for nasa which may be answered by regular mail messages are answered electronically even to acknowledge requests which will be fulfilled by mail messages are generally handled the next working day except during missions when turnaround times increase the mail system is closed loop between the user and nasa spacelink also offers downloadable shareware and public domain programs useful for science educators as well as space graphics and gif images from nasa s planetary probes and the hubble telescope you can dial in at v baud bits no parity stop bit or telnet to spacelink msfc nasa gov also known as xsl msfc nasa gov if you re on the internet anonymous ftp capability password guest is now available most of this information is also available from the ames server in directory spacelink national space science data center nssdc the national space science data center is the official clearinghouse for nasa data the data catalog not the data itself is available online internet users can telnet to nssdca gsfc nasa gov and log in as nodis no password you can also get the catalog by sending email to request nssdc gsfc nasa gov you can also dial in at or baud bits no parity one stop at the enter number prompt enter md and carriage return when the system responds call complete enter a few more carriage returns to get the username and log in as nodis no password the system is menu driven topics available as of are master directory nasa global change personnel information management system nimbus grid toms data interplanetary medium data omni request data and or information from nssdc geophysical models canopus newsletter international ultraviolet explorer data request czcs browse and order utility astronomical data center adc step bulletin board service standards and technology information system planetary science magellan project information other online data services at nssdc cd roms available at nssdc for users with internet access datasets are made available via anonymous ftp once you select the desired datasets from the online catalog for other users data may be ordered on cd rom and in other formats among the many types of data available are voyager magellan and other planetary images earth observation data and star catalogs viewers for macintosh and ibm systems are also available as an example of the cost an cd set of voyager images is data may ordered online by email or by physical mail the postal address is national space science data center request coordination office goddard space flight center code greenbelt md telephone email address request nssdca gsfc nasa gov space telescope science institute electronic information service stsci edu has a large amount of information about the hubble space telescope available by anonymous ftp such as status reports and newsletters in addition to material oriented towards hst observers and proposers get the top level readme file to begin with contact pete reppert reppert stsci edu or chris o dea odea stsci edu starcat the space telescope european coordination facility at eso garching provides on line access to a huge astronomical database featuring observation log files of several satellites telescopes iue iras hst ntt spectra and images iue hst most of the astronomical catalogues sao hr ngc ppm iras veron gsc and many others more than in a very convenient way give center radius kind of objects and you get the corresponding files log on as starcat no password on node stesis hq eso org or on stesis decnet the files created can be retreived by ftp contact benoit pirenne bpirenne eso org phone at st ecf astronomical databases the full sao stellar database is not available online probably due to the mb size it may be ordered on magnetic tape from the nssdc a subset containing position and magnitude only is available by ftp see astronomy programs below nic funet fi has a large collection of astronomical programs for many types of computers databases of stars and deep sky objects and general astronomy information in directory pub astro this site is mainly for european users but overseas connections are possible the ames archives contain a database of galaxies including name ra declination magnitude and radial velocity in misc galaxy dat supplied by wayne hayes wayne csri utoronto ca iris ucis dal ca has a number of gifs from voyager hubble and other sources available by anonymous ftp in pub gif most of this data is also in space gif on the ames server please restrict access to pm am atlantic time pomona claremont edu has the yale bright star catalog for anonymous ftp in directory yale bsc contact james dishaw jdishaw hmcvax claremont edu the hubble guide star catalog is available on cd rom for the mac and pc for us catalog st astronomical society of the pacific ashton ave san francisco ca phone am pm pacific time fax for german and possibly other european readers jost jahn has a service to distribute astronomical data to interested amateurs at cost about catalogs are available for dm disk several floppy disk formats are available because of the expense of receiving email on his system he asks that you contact him by physical mail jost jahn neustaedter strasse w bodenteich germany phone frg astronomy programs various astronomy related programs and databases posted to the net in the past are archived for anonymous ftp at multiple sites including ftp uu net also see the astro ftp list posted to sci astro monthly which is more complete than this list astonomical space related sources of interest in comp sources unix volume phoon moon phase and date routines volume starchart starchart program yale star data volume moontool shows moon phase picture on suns volume sao reduced sao catalog astonomical space related sources of interest in comp sources misc volume moon another moon phase program volume starchart starchart program version volume n emo orbit orbit track earth satellites volume starchart starchart program update to version volume jupmoons plotter for jupiter s major moons in perl volume lunisolar lunisolar not sure what this does volume ephem astronomical ephemeris v volume n emo orbit patch to orbit volume planet planet generation simulator elwood downey e downey tasha cca cr rockwell com the author of ephem has offered to mail copies to people who can t find it on one of the archives xsat an x window system based satellite tracking program is available by anonymous ftp from export lcs mit edu in contrib xsat tar z contact dave curry davy ecn purdue edu for more information xsky a computerized sky atlas for the x window system is available for anonymous ftp on arizona edu in the directory software unix xsky as xsky tarz contact terry r friedrichsen terry venus sunquest com for more information the variable stars analysis software archive is available via anonymous ftp from kauri vuw ac nz in directory pub astrophys this is intended for specialists in this field and they would appreciate people from outside new zealand confining their ftp access to the astrophys directory as they pay a significant amount for internet access contents are relatively sparse at present due to the youth of the archive contributions are encouraged contact the archive administrator timothy banks bankst kauri vuw ac nz for more information the idl astronomy users library is available by anonymous ftp from idlastro gsfc nasa gov this is a central repository for general purpose astronomy procedures written in idl a commercial image processing plotting and programming language contact wayne landsman landsman stars gsfc nasa gov for more information orbital element sets the most recent orbital elements from the nasa prediction bulletins are carried on the celestial bbs documentation and tracking software are also available on this system the celestial bbs may be accessed hours day at or baud using data bits stop bit no parity orbital element sets are available via anonymous ftp from the following sites archive afit af mil nasa tvro shuttle directory pub space ftp funet fi nasa tvro molczan celbbs directory pub astro pc satel shuttle kilroy jpl nasa gov nasa molczan directory pub space space digest archives copies of back issues of space digest are archived on listserv uga bitnet send mail containing the message index space to get an index of files send it the message get filename filetype to get a particular file landsat and nasa photos you can get black and white m prints negatives or positives for respectively for any landsat data more than years old from edc eros earth resources orbiting satellite data center call them at you get meter resolution from the mss scanner x kilometers on a picture x mm in size i think you have to select one band from green red near ir second near ir but i m not sure digitial data is also available at higher prices transparencies of all nasa photos available to the public can be borrowed from the nasa photo archive you can have copies or prints made nasa audio visual facility north rengstorff ave mountain view ca planetary maps the usgs address for maps of the planets is u s geological survey distribution branch box federal center bldg denver co maps cost to per sheet a few come in sets of or sheets the best global maps of mars based on viking images are scale in sheets these maps are i sheets only relief albedo names i i sheets relief names i sheets relief topographic contours i a b c sheets geology there are many other maps as well sheets at scale in relief albedo geology photomosaic forms not all sheets available in all formats sheets at scale as photomosaics of the whole planet about sheets of interesting sites at scale in photomosaic format and lots of special sheets then there are maps of mercury venus the moon the four galilean satellites six moons of saturn and five of uranus phil stooke stooke vaxr sscl uwo ca the author of this item has offered to respond to email requests for information on any topic relating to lunar and planetary maps cometary orbit data the central bureau for astronomical telegrams and the minor planet center announce the sixth edition of the catalogue of cometary orbits in iau circular the catalogue contains entries which represent all known comets through november and is pages long non subscribers to the circulars may purchase the catalogue for while the cost to subscribers is the basic catalogue in ascii along with a program to extract specific orbits and calculate ephemerides is available on ms dos inch s d diskette at a cost of the program requires an math coprocessor the catalogue alone is also available by e mail for or on magnetic tape for except for the printed version of the catalogue the various magnetic media or e mail forms of the catalogue do not specifically meantion non subscribers it is possible that these forms of the catalogue may not be available to non subscribers or that their prices may be more expensive than those given mail requests for specific information and orders to central bureau for astronomical telegrams smithsonian astrophysical observatory cambridge ma usa next faq performing calculations and interpreting data formats
sci.space	space faq references archive name space references last modified date references on specific areas publishers of space astronomy material astronomical society of the pacific th avenue san francisco ca more expensive but better organized slide sets cambridge university press east th street new york ny crawford peters aeronautica p o box san diego ca an excellent source of all kinds of space publications they publish a number of catalogs including aviation and space aviation and space space and related titles european southern observatory information and photographic service dr r m west karl scharzschild strasse d garching bei munchen frg slide sets posters photographs conference proceedings finley holiday film corporation east philadelphia street whittier california films wide selection of apollo shuttle viking and voyager slides at cents slide call for a catalog hansen planetarium utah said to hold sales on old slide sets look in sky telescope for contact info lunar and planetary institute nasa road one houston tx technical geology oriented slide sets with supporting booklets john wiley sons third avenue new york ny sky publishing corporation po box belmont ma offers sky catalogue on pc floppy with information including parallax for stars roger wheate geography dept university of calgary alberta canada t n n fax wheate uncamult bitnet offers a slide set called mapping the planets illustrating recent work in planetary cartography comes with a booklet and information on getting your own copies of the maps canadian shipping included superintendent of documents us government printing office washington dc univelt inc p o box san diego ca publishers for the american astronomical society us naval observatory usno bulletin board via modem general willmann bell p o box richmond virginia usa est m f careers in the space industry in the princeton planetary society published the first edition of space jobs the guide to careers in space related fields the publication was enormously successful we distributed copies to space enthusiasts across the country and even sent a few to people in great britain australia and ecuador due to the tremendous response to the first edition pps has published an expanded up to date second edition of the guide the page publication boasts listings for summer and full time job opportunities as well as graduate school programs the second edition of space jobs features strategies for entering the space field and describes positions at consulting and engineering firms nasa and non profit organizations the expanded special section on graduate schools highlights a myriad of programs ranging from space manufacturing to space policy additional sections include tips on becoming an astronaut and listings of nasa space grant fellowships and consortia as well as nasa centers for the commercial development of space to order send check or money order made payable to princeton planetary society for per copy plus per copy for shipping and handling non us customers send an international money order payable in us dollars to princeton planetary society west college princeton university princeton nj dc x single stage to orbit ssto program sdi s ssrt single stage rocket technology project has funded a suborbital technology demonstrator called dc x that should fly in mid further development towards an operational single stage to orbit vehicle called delta clipper is uncertain at present an collection of pictures and files relating to dc x is available by anonymous ftp or email server in the directory bongo cc utexas edu pub delta clipper chris w johnson chrisj emx cc utexas edu maintains the archive how to name a star after a person official names are decided by committees of the international astronomical union and are not for sale there are purely commercial organizations which will for a fee send you pretty certificates and star maps describing where to find your star these organizations have absolutely no standing in the astronomical community and the names they assign are not used by anyone else it s also likely that you won t be able to see your star without binoculars or a telescope see the back pages of astronomy or other amateur astronomy publications for contact info one such organization may be found at international star registry wilson road ingleside il this is not an endorsement of isr llnl great exploration the llnl great exploration a plan for an on the cheap space station lunar base and mars mission using inflatable space structures excited a lot of interest on the net and still comes up from time to time some references cited during net discussion were avation week jan for an article on the overall great exploration nasa assessment of the llnl space exploration proposal and llnl responses by dr lowell wood llnl doc no ss their address is po box livermore ca the nasa authors are unknown briefing slides of a presentation to the nrc last december may be available write llnl and ask conceptual design study for modular inflatable space structures a final report for purchase order b by ilc dover inc i don t know how to get this except from llnl or ilc dover i don t have an address for ilc lunar prospector lunar exploration inc lei is a non profit corporation working on a privately funded lunar polar orbiter lunar prospector is designed to perform a geochemical survey and search for frozen volatiles at the poles a set of reference files describing the project is available in ames arc nasa gov pub space lei lunar science and activities grant h heiken david t vaniman and bevan m french editors lunar sourcebook a user s guide to the moon cambridge university press isbn hardcover expensive a one volume encyclopedia of essentially everything known about the moon reviewing current knowledge in considerable depth with copious references heavy emphasis on geology but a lot more besides including considerable discussion of past lunar missions and practical issues relevant to future mission design the reference book for the moon all others are obsolete wendell mendell ed lunar bases and space activities of the st century every serious student of lunar bases must have this book bill higgins available from lunar and planetary institute nasa road one houston tx if you want to order books call thomas a mutch geology of the moon a stratigraphic view princeton university press information about the lunar orbiter missions including maps of the coverage of the lunar nearside and farside by various orbiters orbiting earth satellite histories a list of earth orbiting satellites that are still in orbit is available by anonymous ftp in ames arc nasa gov pub space faq satellites spacecraft models space in miniature gemini by michael j mackowski waterwood lane st louis mo only pp but enough pictures diagrams to interest more than just the modelling community i feel marco s miniatures of dracut mass have produced a skylab in an edition of a lunar rover same scale as monogram and revell lunar modules in a similar edition prices are for skylab for lrv check with them for postage etc i have no connection with them but have found their service to be good and their stock of rare old kits is impressive prices range from reasonable for monogram scale apollo csm with cutaway details to spectacular for airfix vostok four star collectibles p o box dracut mass usa voyager hst viking lunar rover etc kits from lunar models grisham rowlett texas as reviewed by bob kaplow peter alway s book scale model rocketry is now available mine arrived in the mail earlier this week to get your own copy send s h total to peter alway pittsfield ann arbor mi the book includes information on collecting scale data construction of scale models and several handy tables appendicies include plans for sport scale models a d region tomahawk bt a v bt and a aerobee a bt i ve only begun to study the book but it certainly will be a valuable data source for many modellers most vehicles include several paragraphs of text describing the missions flown by the rocket various specs including nar engine classification along with a dimensioned drawing color layouts paint pattern and a black white photograph the vehicles included are the aerobee a aerobee aerobee hi arcas asp astrobee astrobee d atlas centaur atlas agena atlas score baby wac d region tomahawk deacon rockoon delta b delta e gemini titan ii iris javelin juno juno little joe little joe mercury atlas mercury redstone nike apache nike asp nike cajun nike deacon nike tomahawk ram b saturn block saturn block saturn b saturn scout standard aerobee terrapin thor able titan iii c titan iii e trailblazer v vanguard viking model viking model and wac corporal rocket propulsion george p sutton rocket propulsion elements th edn wiley interscience isbn pricey textbook the best nearly the only modern introduction to the technical side of rocketry a good place to start if you want to know the details not for the math shy straight chemical rockets essentially nothing on more advanced propulsion although earlier editions reportedly had some coverage dieter k huzel and david h huang design of liquid propellant rocket engines nasa sp ntis n pc a mf a p out of print reproductions may be obtained through the ntis expensive the complete and authoritative guide to designing liquid fuel engines reference in most chapters of sutton heavy emphasis on practical issues what works and what doesn t what the typical values of the fudge factors are stiff reading massive detail written for rocket engineers by rocket engineers spacecraft design brij n agrawal design of geosynchronous spacecraft prentice hall isbn james r wertz ed spacecraft attitude determination and control kluwer isbn p r k chetty satellite technology and its applications mcgraw hill isbn james r wertz and wiley j larson editors space mission analysis and design kluwer academic publishers dordrecht boston london isbn paperback or hardback this looks at system level design of a spacecraft rather than detailed design chapters appendices about pages it leads the reader through the mission design and system level design of a fictitious earth observation satellite to illustrate the principles that it tries to convey warning although the book is chock full of many useful reference tables some of the numbers in at least one of those tables launch costs for various launchers appear to be quite wrong can be ordered by telephone using a credit card kluwer s phone number is cost esoteric propulsion schemes solar sails lasers fusion this needs more and more up to date references but it s a start antimatter antiproton annihilation propulsion robert forward afrpl tr from the air force rocket propulsion laboratory afrpl xrx stop edwards air force base ca ntis ad a pc a mf a pc paper copy a us or maybe price code mf microfiche a us technical study on making holding and using antimatter for near term years propulsion systems excellent bibliography forward is the best known proponent of antimatter this also may be available as udr tr from the contractor the university of dayton research institute and dtic ad a from the defense technical information center defense logistics agency cameron station alexandria va and it s also available from the ntis with yet another number advanced space propulsion study antiproton and beamed power propulsion robert forward afal tr from the air force astronautics laboratory dtic ad a ntis ad a pc a mf a summarizes the previous paper goes into detail on beamed power systems including pellet microwave and laser beamed power systems for intersteller transport a design for a near relativistic laser pushed lightsail using near term laser technology a survey of laser thermal propulsion tether transportation systems antiproton annihilation propulsion exotic applications of solar sails and laser pushed interstellar lightsails the status of antiproton annihilation propulsion as of and the prospects for obtaining antimatter ions heavier than antiprotons again there is an extensive bibliography application of antimatter electric power to interstellar propulsion g d nordley jbis interstellar studies issue of bussard ramjets and related methods g l matloff and a j fennelly interstellar applications and limitations of several electrostatic electromagnetic ion collection techniques jbis n h langston the erosion of interstellar drag screens jbis c powell flight dynamics of the ram augmented interstellar rocket jbis a r martin the effects of drag on relativistic spacefight jbis fusion a laser fusion rocket for interplanetary propulsion roderick hyde llnl report ucrl contact the technical information dept at livermore fusion pellet design fuel selection energy loss mechanisms pellet compression metrics thrust chamber magnetic nozzle shielding tritium breeding thermal modeling fusion driver lasers particle beams etc heat rejection vehicle summary mass estimates vehicle performance interstellar travel required exhaust velocities at the limit of fusion s capability interplanetary missions are limited by power weight ratio trajectory modeling typical mission profiles references including the report in jbis project daedalus and several on icf and driver technology fusion as electric propulsion robert w bussard journal of propulsion and power vol no sept oct fusion rocket engines are analyzed as electric propulsion systems with propulsion thrust power input power ratio the thrust power gain g t much greater than unity gain values of conventional solar fission electric propulsion systems are always quite small e g g t with these high thrust interplanetary flight is not possible because system acceleration a t capabilities are always less than the local gravitational acceleration in contrast gain values times higher are found for some fusion concepts which offer high thrust flight capability one performance example shows a day powered coast one way transit time with payload for a single stage earth mars vehicle another shows the potential for high acceleration a t g o flight in earth moon space the qed engine system direct electric fusion powered systems for aerospace flight propulsion by robert w bussard emc available from energy matter conversion corp a center street manassas va this is an introduction to the application of bussard s version of the farnsworth hirsch electrostatic confinement fusion technology to propulsion isp sec farnsworth hirsch demonstrated a neutron flux with their device back in but it was dropped when panic ensued over the surprising stability of the soviet tokamak hirsch responsible for the panic has recently recanted and is back working on qed jim bowery plasmaktm star power for energy intensive space applications by paul m koloc eight ans topical meeting on technology of fusion energy special issue fusion technology march aneutronic energy fusion with little or negligible neutron flux requires plasma pressures and stable confinement times larger than can be delivered by current approaches if plasma pressures appropriate to burn times on the order of milliseconds could be achieved in aneutronic fuels then high power densities and very compact realtively clean burning engines for space and other special applications would be at hand the plasmaktm innovation will make this possible its unique pressure efficient structure exceptional stability fluid mechanically compressible mantle and direct inductive mhd electric power conversion advantages are described peak burn densities of tens of megawats per cc give it compactness even in the multi gigawatt electric output size engineering advantages indicate a rapid development schedule at very modest cost i strongly recommend that people take this guy seriously bob hirsch the primary proponent of the tokamak has recently declared koloc s plasmaktm precursor the spheromak to be one of promising fusion technologies that should be pursued rather than tokamak aside from the preceeding appeal to authority the plasmaktm looks like it finally models ball lightning with solid mhd physics jim bowery ion drives retrieve files pub space spacelink from the ames space archive these deal with many aspects of ion drives and describe the sert i and ii missions which flight tested cesium ion thrusters in the s and s there are numerous references mass drivers coilguns railguns ieee transactions on magnetics for example v no january issue every so often they publish the proceedings of the symposium on electromagnetic launcher technology including hundreds of papers on the subject it s a good look at the state of the art though perhaps not a good tutorial for beginners anybody know some good review papers nuclear rockets fission technical notes on nuclear rockets by bruce w knight and donald kingsbury unpublished may be available from donald kingsbury math dept mcgill university po box station a montreal quebec m c g canada solar sails starsailing solar sails and interstellar travel louis friedman wiley new york pp paper not very technical but an adequate overview roundtrip interstellar travel using laser pushed lightsails journal of spacecraft and rockets vol pp jan feb tethers tethers and asteroids for artificial gravity assist in the solar system by p a penzo and h l mayer journal of spacecraft and rockets for jan feb details how a spacecraft with a kevlar tether of the same mass can change its velocity by up to slightly less than km sec if it is travelling under that velocity wrt a suitable asteroid general alternate propulsion energy sources robert forward afprl tr ntis ad b pc a mf a dec p keywords propulsion energy metastable helium free radical hydrogen solar pumped sic plasmas antiproton annihiliation ionospheric lasers solar sails perforated sails microwave sails quantum fluctuations antimatter rockets it s a wide if not deep look at exotic energy sources which might be useful for space propulsion it also considers various kinds of laser propulsion metallic hydrogen tethers and unconventional nuclear propulsion the bibliographic information pointing to the research on all this stuff belongs on every daydreamer s shelf future magic dr robert l forward avon isbn nontechnical discussion of tethers antimatter gravity control and even futher out topics spy satellites deep black by william burrows best modern general book for spysats a base for debate the us satellite station at nurrungar des ball allen and unwin australia isbn covers dsp early warning satellites pine gap australia and the us geostationary signals intelligence satellite program des ball allen and unwin australia isbn covers rhyolite aquacade chalet vortex and magnum signals intelligence satellites guardians strategic reconnaissance satellites curtis peebles ian allan isbn good on mol military salyut and soviet satellites less so on others tends to believe what he s told so flaws in discussion of dsp rhyolite et al america s secret eyes in space the keyhole spy satellite program jeffrey richelson harper and row isbn in a class of its own the historical reference on the keyhole satellites secret sentries in space philip j klass long out of print but well worth a look space shuttle computer systems j communications of the acm v n d september k special issue on space shuttle computers a myron kayton t avionics for manned spacecraft j ieee transactions on aerospace and electronic systems v n d november p other various aiaa and ieee publications computers in spaceflight the nasa experience james e tomayko seti computation signal processing a d k cullers a ivan r linscott a bernard m oliver t signal processing in seti j communications of the acm v n d november p k cr categories and subject descriptors d operating systems process management concurrency i pattern recognition applications signal processing j phsyical sciences and engineering astronomy general terms design additional key words and phrases digital fourier transforms finite impulse response filters interstellar communications search for extra terrestrial intelligence signal detection spectrum analysis amateur satellies weather satellites a fairly long writeup on receiving and interpreting weather satellite photos is available from the ames space archive in pub space faq weatherphotos the american radio relay league publication service offers the following references also see the section on amsat in the space groups segment of the faq arrl satellite experimenters handbook arrl weather satellite handbook ibm pc software for weather satellite handbook amsat na th space symposium amsat na th space symposium shipping is extra the american radio relay league publications department main street newington ct tides srinivas bettadpur contributed a writeup on tides available from the ames space archive in pub space faq tides it covers the following areas d example of tidal deformation treatment of tidal fields in practice long term evolution of the earth moon system under tides the writeup refers to the following texts geophysical geodesy by k lambeck tides of the planet earth by p melchior next faq constants and equations for calculations
sci.space	space faq mission schedules archive name space schedule last modified date space shuttle answers launch schedules tv coverage shuttle launchings and landings schedules and how to see them shuttle operations are discussed in the usenet group sci space shuttle and ken hollis gandalf pro electric cts com posts a compressed version of the shuttle manifest launch dates and other information periodically there the manifest is also available from the ames space archive in space faq manifest the portion of his manifest formerly included in this faq has been removed please refer to his posting or the archived copy for the most up to date information on upcoming missions call info at kennedy space center official nasa shuttle status reports are posted to sci space news frequently why does the shuttle roll just after liftoff the following answer and translation are provided by ken jenks kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov the ascent guidance and flight control training manual asc g c says during the vertical rise phase the launch pad attitude is commanded until an i loaded v rel sufficient to assure launch tower clearance is achieved then the tilt maneuver roll program orients the vehicle to a heads down attitude required to generate a negative q alpha which in turn alleviates structural loading other advantages with this attitude are performance gain decreased abort maneuver complexity improved s band look angles and crew view of the horizon the tilt maneuver is also required to start gaining downrange velocity to achieve the main engine cutoff meco target in second stage this really is a good answer but it s couched in nasa jargon i ll try to interpret we wait until the shuttle clears the tower before rolling then we roll the shuttle around so that the angle of attack between the wind caused by passage through the atmosphere the relative wind and the chord of the wings the imaginary line between the leading edge and the trailing edge is a slightly negative angle a negative q alpha this causes a little bit of downward force toward the belly of the orbiter or the z direction and this force alleviates structural loading we have to be careful about those wings they re about the most delicate part of the vehicle the new attitude after the roll also allows us to carry more mass to orbit or to achieve a higher orbit with the same mass or to change the orbit to a higher or lower inclination than would be the case if we didn t roll performance gain the new attitude allows the crew to fly a less complicated flight path if they had to execute one of the more dangerous abort maneuvers the return to launch site decreased abort maneuver complexity the new attitude improves the ability for ground based radio antennae to have a good line of sight signal with the s band radio antennae on the orbiter improved s band look angles the new attitude allows the crew to see the horizon which is a helpful but not mandatory part of piloting any flying machine the new attitude orients the shuttle so that the body is more nearly parallel with the ground and the nose to the east usually this allows the thrust from the engines to add velocity in the correct direction to eventually achieve orbit remember velocity is a vector quantity made of both speed and direction the shuttle has to have a large horizontal component to its velocity and a very small vertical component to attain orbit this all begs the question why isn t the launch pad oriented to give this nice attitude to begin with why does the shuttle need to roll to achieve that attitude the answer is that the pads were leftovers from the apollo days the shuttle straddles two flame trenches one for the solid rocket motor exhaust one for the space shuttle main engine exhaust you can see the effects of this on any daytime launch the srm exhaust is dirty gray garbage and the ssme exhaust is fluffy white steam watch for the difference between the top orbiter side and the bottom external tank side of the stack the access tower and other support and service structure are all oriented basically the same way they were for the saturn v s a side note the saturn v s also had a roll program don t ask me why i m a shuttle guy i checked with a buddy in ascent dynamics he added that the roll maneuver is really a maneuver in all three axes roll pitch and yaw the roll component of that maneuver is performed for the reasons stated the pitch component controls loading on the wings by keeping the angle of attack q alpha within a tight tolerance the yaw component is used to determine the orbital inclination the total maneuver is really expressed as a quaternion a grad level math concept for combining all three rotation matrices in one four element array how to receive the nasa tv channel nasa select nasa select is broadcast by satellite if you have access to a satellite dish you can find select on satcom f r transponder c band degrees west longitude audio frequency mhz f r is stationed over the atlantic and is increasingly difficult to receive from california and points west during events of special interest e g shuttle missions select is sometimes broadcast on a second satellite for these viewers if you can t get a satellite feed some cable operators carry select it s worth asking if yours doesn t the select schedule is found in the nasa headline news which is frequently posted to sci space news generally it carries press conferences briefings by nasa officials and live coverage of shuttle missions and planetary encounters select has recently begun carrying much more secondary material associated with spacelink when missions are not being covered amateur radio frequencies for shuttle missions the following are believed to rebroadcast space shuttle mission audio w fxn los angeles k mf ames research center mountain view california wa nan goddard space flight center gsfc greenbelt maryland w rrr johnson space center jsc houston texas w vio jet propulsion laboratory jpl pasadena california w aw voice bulletins station vhf m m m m m w fxn k mf wa nan w rrr w vio w vio w aw w rrr transmits mission audio on a special event station on the other frequencies supplying keplerian elements and mission information w aw also transmits on no mission audio but they transmit voice bulletins at and utc frequencies in the m bands require usb and frequencies in the and m bands lsb use fm for the vhf frequencies this item was most recently updated courtesy of gary morris g telesoft com kk yb n qwc solid rocket booster fuel composition reference shuttle flight operations manual volume b solid rocket booster systems nasa document jsc propellant composition percent ammonium perchlorate oxidizer aluminum iron oxide burn rate catalyst polybutadiene acrilic acid acrylonitrile a rubber epoxy curing agent end reference comment the aluminum rubber and epoxy all burn with the oxidizer next faq historical planetary probes
sci.space	space faq planetary probe history archive name space probe last modified date planetary probes historical missions this section was lightly adapted from an original posting by larry klaes klaes verga enet dec com mostly minor formatting changes matthew wiener weemba libra wistar upenn edu contributed the section on voyager and the section on sakigake was obtained from isas material posted by yoshiro yamada yamada yscvax ysc go jp us planetary missions mariner venus mars mercury flybys and orbiters mariner the first u s attempt to send a spacecraft to venus failed minutes after launch in the guidance instructions from the ground stopped reaching the rocket due to a problem with its antenna so the onboard computer took control however there turned out to be a bug in the guidance software and the rocket promptly went off course so the range safety officer destroyed it although the bug is sometimes claimed to have been an incorrect fortran do statement it was actually a transcription error in which the bar indicating smoothing was omitted from the expression r dot bar sub n nth smoothed value of derivative of radius this error led the software to treat normal minor variations of velocity as if they were serious leading to incorrect compensation mariner became the first successful probe to flyby venus in december of and it returned information which confirmed that venus is a very hot degrees fahrenheit now revised to degrees f world with a cloud covered atmosphere composed primarily of carbon dioxide sulfuric acid was later confirmed in mariner launched on november was lost when its protective shroud failed to eject as the craft was placed into interplanetary space unable to collect the sun s energy for power from its solar panels the probe soon died when its batteries ran out and is now in solar orbit it was intended for a mars flyby with mariner mariner the sister probe to mariner did reach mars in and took the first close up images of the martian surface in all as it flew by the planet the probe found a cratered world with an atmosphere much thinner than previously thought many scientists concluded from this preliminary scan that mars was a dead world in both the geological and biological sense mariner was sent to venus in it reconfirmed the data on that planet collected five years earlier by mariner plus the information that venus atmospheric pressure at its surface is at least times that of earth s or the equivalent of being feet under the surface of an ocean mariner and were sent to mars in and expanded upon the work done by mariner four years earlier however they failed to take away the concept of mars as a dead planet first made from the basic measurements of mariner mariner ended up in the atlantic ocean in when the rocket launcher autopilot failed mariner the sister probe to mariner became the first craft to orbit mars in it returned information on the red planet that no other probe had done before revealing huge volcanoes on the martian surface as well as giant canyon systems and evidence that water once flowed across the planet the probe also took the first detailed closeup images of mars two small moons phobos and deimos mariner used venus as a gravity assist to mercury in the probe did return the first close up images of the venusian atmosphere in ultraviolet revealing previously unseen details in the cloud cover plus the fact that the entire cloud system circles the planet in four earth days mariner eventually made three flybys of mercury from to before running out of attitude control gas the probe revealed mercury as a heavily cratered world with a mass much greater than thought this would seem to indicate that mercury has an iron core which makes up percent of the entire planet pioneer moon sun venus jupiter and saturn flybys and orbiters pioneer through failed to meet their main objective to photograph the moon close up but they did reach far enough into space to provide new information on the area between earth and the moon including new data on the van allen radiation belts circling earth all three craft had failures with their rocket launchers pioneer was launched on october pioneer on november and pioneer on december pioneer was a moon probe which missed the moon and became the first u s spacecraft to orbit the sun in pioneer was originally designed to flyby venus but the mission was scaled down and it instead studied the interplanetary environment between venus and earth out to million kilometers in a record until mariner pioneer through were placed into solar orbit from to pioneer and are still transmitting information at this time pioneer e would have been number suffered a launch failure in pioneer became the first spacecraft to flyby jupiter in pioneer followed it in and then went on to become the first probe to study saturn in both vehicles should continue to function through and are heading off into interstellar space the first craft ever to do so pioneer venus also known as pioneer venus orbiter or pioneer burned up in the venusian atmosphere on october pvo made the first radar studies of the planet s surface via probe pioneer venus also known as pioneer sent four small probes into the atmosphere in december of the main spacecraft bus burned up high in the atmosphere while the four probes descended by parachute towards the surface though none were expected to survive to the surface the day probe did make it and transmitted for minutes on the ground before its batteries failed ranger lunar lander and impact missions ranger and were test probes for the ranger lunar impact series they were meant for high earth orbit testing in but rocket problems left them in useless low orbits which quickly decayed ranger launched on january was intended to land an instrument capsule on the surface of the moon but problems during the launch caused the probe to miss the moon and head into solar orbit ranger did try to take some images of the moon as it flew by but the camera was unfortunately aimed at deep space during the attempt ranger launched april had the same purpose as ranger but suffered technical problems enroute and crashed on the lunar farside the first u s probe to reach the moon albeit without returning data ranger launched october and similar to ranger and lost all solar panel and battery power enroute and eventually missed the moon and drifted off into solar orbit ranger through had more modified lunar missions they were to send back live images of the lunar surface as they headed towards an impact with the moon ranger failed this objective in when its cameras did not operate ranger through performed well becoming the first u s lunar probes to return thousands of lunar images through lunar orbiter lunar surface photography lunar orbiter through were designed to orbit the moon and image various sites being studied as landing areas for the manned apollo missions of the probes also contributed greatly to our understanding of lunar surface features particularly the lunar farside all five probes of the series launched from to were essentially successful in their missions they were the first u s probes to orbit the moon all los were eventually crashed into the lunar surface to avoid interference with the manned apollo missions surveyor lunar soft landers the surveyor series were designed primarily to see if an apollo lunar module could land on the surface of the moon without sinking into the soil before this time it was feared by some that the moon was covered in great layers of dust which would not support a heavy landing vehicle surveyor was successful in proving that the lunar surface was strong enough to hold up a spacecraft from to only surveyor and were unsuccessful missions the rest became the first u s probes to soft land on the moon taking thousands of images and scooping the soil for analysis apollo landed feet from surveyor in and returned parts of the craft to earth surveyor the last of the series was a purely scientific mission which explored the tycho crater region in viking mars orbiters and landers viking was launched from cape canaveral florida on august on a titan e centaur d rocket the probe went into martian orbit on june and the lander set down on the western slopes of chryse planitia on july it soon began its programmed search for martian micro organisms there is still debate as to whether the probes found life there or not and sent back incredible color panoramas of its surroundings one thing scientists learned was that mars sky was pinkish in color not dark blue as they originally thought the sky is pink due to sunlight reflecting off the reddish dust particles in the thin atmosphere the lander set down among a field of red sand and boulders stretching out as far as its cameras could image the viking orbiter kept functioning until august when it ran out of attitude control propellant the lander was switched into a weather reporting mode where it had been hoped it would keep functioning through but after november an errant command had been sent to the lander accidentally telling it to shut down until further orders communication was never regained again despite the engineers efforts through may of an interesting side note viking s lander has been designated the thomas a mutch memorial station in honor of the late leader of the lander imaging team the national air and space museum in washington d c is entrusted with the safekeeping of the mutch station plaque until it can be attached to the lander by a manned expedition viking was launched on september and arrived in martian orbit on august the lander touched down on september in utopia planitia it accomplished essentially the same tasks as its sister lander with the exception that its seisometer worked recording one marsquake the orbiter had a series of attitude control gas leaks in which prompted it being shut down that july the lander was shut down on april the orbits of both viking orbiters should decay around voyager outer planet flybys voyager was launched september and flew past jupiter on march and by saturn on november voyager was launched august before voyager and flew by jupiter on august by saturn on august by uranus on january and by neptune on august voyager took advantage of a rare once every years alignment to slingshot its way from outer planet to outer planet voyager could in principle have headed towards pluto but jpl opted for the sure thing of a titan close up between the two probes our knowledge of the giant planets their satellites and their rings has become immense voyager discovered that jupiter has complicated atmospheric dynamics lightning and aurorae three new satellites were discovered two of the major surprises were that jupiter has rings and that io has active sulfurous volcanoes with major effects on the jovian magnetosphere when the two probes reached saturn they discovered over ringlets and satellites including the predicted shepherd satellites that keep the rings stable the weather was tame compared with jupiter massive jet streams with minimal variance a year great white spot band cycle is known titan s atmosphere was smoggy mimas appearance was startling one massive impact crater gave it the death star appearance the big surprise here was the stranger aspects of the rings braids kinks and spokes were both unexpected and difficult to explain voyager thanks to heroic engineering and programming efforts continued the mission to uranus and neptune uranus itself was highly monochromatic in appearance one oddity was that its magnetic axis was found to be highly skewed from the already completely skewed rotational axis giving uranus a peculiar magnetosphere icy channels were found on ariel and miranda was a bizarre patchwork of different terrains satellites and one more ring were discovered in contrast to uranus neptune was found to have rather active weather including numerous cloud features the ring arcs turned out to be bright patches on one ring two other rings and other satellites were discovered neptune s magnetic axis was also skewed triton had a canteloupe appearance and geysers what s liquid at k the two voyagers are expected to last for about two more decades their on target journeying gives negative evidence about possible planets beyond pluto their next major scientific discovery should be the location of the heliopause soviet planetary missions since there have been so many soviet probes to the moon venus and mars i will highlight only the primary missions soviet lunar probes luna lunar impact attempt in missed moon and became first craft in solar orbit luna first craft to impact on lunar surface in luna took first images of lunar farside in zond took first images of lunar farside in since luna was also a test for future mars missions luna first probe to soft land on the moon in returned images from surface luna first probe to orbit the moon in luna second successful soviet lunar soft landing mission in zond first successful circumlunar craft zond through accomplished similar missions through the probes were unmanned tests of a manned orbiting soyuz type lunar vehicle luna first probe to land on moon and return samples of lunar soil to earth in luna accomplished similar mission in luna delivered the first unmanned lunar rover to the moon s surface lunokhod in a similar feat was accomplished with luna lunokhod in luna last soviet lunar mission to date returned soil samples in soviet venus probes venera first acknowledged attempt at venus mission transmissions lost enroute in venera attempt to image venus during flyby mission in tandem with venera probe ceased transmitting just before encounter in february of no images were returned venera attempt to place a lander capsule on venusian surface transmissions ceased just before encounter and entire probe became the first craft to impact on another planet in venera first probe to successfully return data while descending through venusian atmosphere crushed by air pressure before reaching surface in venera and mission profiles similar in venera first probe to return data from the surface of another planet in venera accomplished a more detailed mission in venera sent first image of venusian surface in was also the first probe to orbit venus venera accomplished similar mission venera returned first color images of venusian surface in venera accomplished similar mission venera accomplished radar mapping with venera of sections of planet s surface in more detailed than pvo vega accomplished with vega first balloon probes of venusian atmosphere in including two landers flyby buses went on to become first spacecraft to study comet halley close up in march of soviet mars probes mars first acknowledged mars probe in transmissions ceased enroute the following year zond first possible attempt to place a lander capsule on martian surface probe signals ceased enroute in mars first soviet mars probe to land albeit crash on martian surface orbiter section first soviet probe to circle the red planet in mars first successful soft landing on martian surface but lander signals ceased after seconds in mars attempt at orbiting mars in braking rockets failed to fire probe went on into solar orbit mars first fully successful soviet mars mission orbiting mars in returned images of martian surface comparable to u s probe mariner mars landing attempt in lander crashed into the surface mars lander missed mars completely in went into a solar orbit with its flyby bus phobos first attempt to land probes on surface of mars largest moon phobos probe failed enroute in due to human computer error phobos attempt to land probes on martian moon phobos the probe did enter mars orbit in early but signals ceased one week before scheduled phobos landing while there has been talk of soviet jupiter saturn and even interstellar probes within the next thirty years no major steps have yet been taken with these projects more intensive studies of the moon mars venus and various comets have been planned for the s and a mercury mission to orbit and land probes on the tiny world has been planned for how the many changes in the former soviet union now the commonwealth of independent states will affect the future of their space program remains to be seen japanese planetary missions sakigake ms t was launched from the kagoshima space center by isas on january and approached halley s comet within about million km on march the spacecraft is carrying three instru ments to measure interplanetary magnetic field plasma waves solar wind all of which work normally now so isas made an earth swingby by sakigake on january into an orbit similar to the earth s the closest approach was at h m s jst utc h on january the geocentric distance was km this is the first planet swingby for a japanese spacecraft during the approach sakigake observed the geotail some geotail passages will be scheduled in some years hence the second earth swingby will be on june at re earth s radius and the third october at re hiten a small lunar probe was launched into earth orbit on january the spacecraft was then known as muses a but was renamed to hiten once in orbit the lb probe looped out from earth and made its first lunary flyby on march where it dropped off its lb midget satellite hagoromo japan at this point became the third nation to orbit a satellite around the moon joining the unites states and ussr the smaller spacecraft hagoromo remained in orbit around the moon an apparently broken transistor radio caused the japanese space scientists to lose track of it hagoromo s rocket motor fired on schedule on march but the spacecraft s tracking transmitter failed immediately the rocket firing of hagoromo was optically confirmed using the schmidt camera cm f at the kiso observatory in japan hiten made multiple lunar flybys at approximately monthly intervals and performed aerobraking experiments using the earth s atmosphere hiten made a close approach to the moon at jst utc h on february at the height of km from the moon s surface n e and fired its propulsion system for about ten minutes to put the craft into lunar orbit the following is the orbital calculation results after the approach apoapsis altitude about km periapsis altitude about km inclination deg to ecliptic plane period days planetary mission references i also recommend reading the following works categorized in three groups general overviews specific books on particular space missions and periodical sources on space probes this list is by no means complete it is primarily designed to give you places to start your research through generally available works on the subject if anyone can add pertinent works to the list it would be greatly appreciated though naturally i recommend all the books listed below i think it would be best if you started out with the general overview books in order to give you a clear idea of the history of space exploration in this area i also recommend that you pick up some good up to date general works on astronomy and the sol system to give you some extra background most of these books and periodicals can be found in any good public and university library some of the more recently published works can also be purchased in and or ordered through any good mass market bookstore general overviews in alphabetical order by author j kelly beatty et al the new solar system merton e davies and bruce c murray the view from space photographic exploration of the planets kenneth gatland the illustrated encyclopedia of space technology kenneth gatland robot explorers r greeley planetary landscapes douglas hart the encyclopedia of soviet spacecraft nicholas l johnson handbook of soviet lunar and planetary exploration clayton r koppes jpl and the american space program a history of the jet propulsion laboratory richard s lewis the illustrated encyclopedia of the universe mark littman planets beyond discovering the outer solar system eugene f mallove and gregory l matloff the starflight handbook a pioneer s guide to interstellar travel frank miles and nicholas booth race to mars the mars flight atlas bruce murray journey into space oran w nicks far travelers nasa sp james e oberg uncovering soviet disasters exploring the limits of glasnost carl sagan comet carl sagan the cosmic connection carl sagan planets life science library arthur smith planetary exploration thirty years of unmanned space probes andrew wilson jane s solar system log specific mission references charles a cross and patrick moore the atlas of mercury the mariner mission to venus and mercury joel davis flyby the interplanetary odyssey of voyager irl newlan first to venus the story of mariner margaret poynter and arthur l lane voyager the story of a space mission carl sagan murmurs of earth deals with the earth information records placed on voyager and in case the probes are found by intelligences in interstellar space as well as the probes and planetary mission objectives themselves other works and periodicals nasa has published very detailed and technical books on every space probe mission it has launched good university libraries will carry these books and they are easily found simply by knowing which mission you wish to read about i recommend these works after you first study some of the books listed above some periodicals i recommend for reading on space probes are national geographic which has written articles on the pioneer probes to earth s moon luna and the jovian planets jupiter and saturn the ranger surveyor lunar orbiter and apollo missions to luna the mariner missions to mercury venus and mars the viking probes to mars and the voyager missions to jupiter saturn uranus and neptune more details on american soviet european and japanese probe missions can be found in sky and telescope astronomy science nature and scientific american magazines time newsweek and various major newspapers can supply not only general information on certain missions but also show you what else was going on with earth at the time events were unfolding if that is of interest to you space missions are affected by numerous political economic and climatic factors as you probably know depending on just how far your interest in space probes will go you might also wish to join the planetary society one of the largest space groups in the world dedicated to planetary exploration their periodical the planetary report details the latest space probe missions write to the planetary society north catalina avenue pasadena california usa good luck with your studies in this area of space exploration i personally find planetary missions to be one of the more exciting areas in this field and the benefits human society has and will receive from it are incredible with many yet to be realized larry klaes klaes verga enet dec com next faq upcoming planetary probes missions and schedules
sci.space	space faq orbital and planetary launch services archive name space launchers last modified date orbital and planetary launch services the following data comes from international reference guide to space launch systems by steven j isakowitz edition notes unless otherwise specified leo and polar paylaods are for a nm orbit reliablity data includes launches through dec reliabity for a familiy of vehicles includes launches by types no longer built when applicable prices are in millions of us and are subject to change only operational vehicle families are included individual vehicles which have not yet flown are marked by an asterisk if a vehicle had first launch after publication of my data it may still be marked with an asterisk vehicle payload kg lbs reliability price launch site nation leo polar gto lat long ariane kourou esa n w ar m ar p m ar p m ar l m ar lp m ar l m ar m nm atlas cape canaveral usa n w atlas e m vandeberg afb n w atlas i m atlas ii m atlas iia m atlas iias m delta cape canaveral usa vandenberg afb delta m delta m energia baikonur russia n e energia m h series tangeshima japan n e h m kosmos plestek russia n e kosmos kapustin yar km orbit inclination n e long march jiquan slc china n e cz d m xichang slc n e taiyuan slc cz c m n e cz e m cz e ho cz m cz a m cz m pegasus taurus peg b l usa taur canaveral pegasus m or vandenberg taurus m proton baikonour russia proton m scout vandenberg afb usa wallops ff scout g m n w san marco s e enhanced scout m shavit palmachim afb israel n shavit m space shuttle kennedy space usa center shuttle srb m n w fy shuttle asrm slv shar center india km km polar n e aslv m pslv m gslv m titan cape canaveral usa vandenberg titan ii m titan iii m titan iv srm m m titan iv srmu m vostok baikonur russia km plesetsk vostok m soyuz m molniya kg lbs in m highly eliptical orbit zenit baikonur russia zenit m
sci.space	space faq astronomical mnemonics archive name space mnemonics last modified date astronomical mnemonics this is the last faq section posted to sci astro gathered from various flurries of mnemonic postings on sci astro spectral classification sequence o b a f g k m r n s oh be a fine girl kiss me right now sweetheart a classic o dell s big astronomical fiasco gonna kill me right now surely obese balding astronomy found guilty killed many reluctant nonscience students octopus brains a favorite gastronomical kitchen menu requires no sauce odd ball astronomers find generally kooky mnemonics really nifty stuff oh big and ferocious gorilla kill my roomate next saturday oh boy a flash godzilla kills mothra really not surprising oh boy an f grade kills me on bad afternoons fermented grapes keep mrs richard nixon smiling on backward astronomer forget geocentricity kepler s motions reveal nature s simplicity our bad astronomy faculty gets killed monday oven baked ants fried gently kept moist retain natural succulence overseas broadcast a flash godzilla kills mothra rodan named successor overweight boys and fat girls keep munching only bored astronomers find gratification knowing mnemonics oh bloody astronomy f grades kill me order of the planets sun mercury venus earth terra mars asteroids jupiter saturn uranus neptune pluto my very earnest mother just served us nine pizzas mother very thoughtfully made a jelly sandwich under no protest my very erotic mate joyfully satisfies unusual needs passionately men very easily make jugs serve useful nocturnal purposes man very early made a jug serve useful noble purposes my very educated mother just showed us nine planets my very eager mother just showed us nine planets my very exhausted mother has just swept up a planetary nebula most voters earn money just showing up near polls my very educated mother just served us nine pizza pies many viscious elephants made john suzy and uncle need protection solar mass very easily makes all jupiter s satellites undergo numerous perturbations mein vater erklaert mir jeden sonntag unsere niedlichen planeten my father explains to me every sunday our nine planets man verachte einen menschen in seinem unglueck nie punkt never scorn despise a person in his misfortune bad luck misery period colors of the spectrum red orange yellow green blue indigo violet roy g biv pronounce as a man s name richard of york gave battle in vain read out your good book in verse galilean satellite of jupiter io europa ganymede callisto i expect god cries i eat green cheese i embarrass good christians ich erschrecke all guten christen i scare all good christians saturnian satellites met dr thip miriam s enchiladas taste divine recently tell her i m proud mimas enceladus tethys dione rhea titan hyperion iapetus phoebe uranian satellites mauto mispronunciations afflict uranus too often my angel uriel takes opium miranda ariel umbriel titania oberon note the remaining faq sections do not appear in sci astro as they cover material of relevance only to sci space next faq contacting nasa esa and other space agencies companies
sci.space	space faq addresses archive name space addresses last modified date contacting nasa esa and other space agencies companies many space activities center around large government or international bureaucracies in the us that means nasa if you have basic information requests e g general pr info research grants data limited tours and especially summer employment typically resumes should be ready by jan etc consider contacting the nearest nasa center to answer your questions email typically will not get you any where computers are used by investigators not pr people the typical volume of mail per center is a multiple of letters a day seek the public information office at one of the below this is their job nasa the national aeronautics and space administration is the civilian space agency of of the united states federal government it reports directly to the white house and is not a cabinet post such as the military department of defense its k employees are civil servants and hence us citizens another k contractors also work for nasa nasa centers nasa headquarters nasa hq washington dc ask them questions about policy money and things of political nature direct specific questions to the appropriate center nasa ames research center arc moffett field ca some aeronautical research atmosphere reentry mars and venus planetary atmospheres lead center for helicopter research v stol etc runs pioneer series of space probes nasa ames research center dryden flight research facility dfrf p o box edwards ca aircraft mostly tested the shuttle orbiter landing characteristics developed x d x x x xb and of course the x nasa goddard space flight center gsfc greenbelt md outside of washington dc earth orbiting unmanned satellites and sounding rockets developed landsat jet propulsion laboratory jpl california institute of technology oak grove dr pasadena ca the heavies in planetary research probes and other unmanned projects they also had a lot to do with iras they run voyager magellan galileo and will run cassini craf etc etc for images probe navigation and other info about unmanned exploration this is the place to go jpl is run under contract for nasa by the nearby california institute of technology unlike the nasa centers above this distinction is subtle but critical jpl has different requirements for unsolicited research proposals and summer hires for instance in the latter an sf is useless employees are caltech employees contractors and for the most part have similar responsibilities they offer an alternative to funding after other nasa centers a fact sheet and description of jpl is available by anonymous ftp in ames arc nasa gov pub space faq jpldescription nasa johnson manned space center jsc houston tx jsc manages space shuttle ground control of manned missions astronaut training manned mission simulators nasa kennedy space flight center ksc titusville fl space launch center you know this one nasa langley research center larc hampton va near newport news va original nasa site specializes in theoretical and experimental flight dynamics viking long duration exposure facility nasa lewis research center lerc brookpark rd cleveland oh aircraft rocket propulsion space power generation materials research nasa marshall space flight center msfc huntsville al development production delivery of solid rocket boosters external tank orbiter main engines propulsion and launchers michoud assembly facility orleans parish new orleans la shuttle external tanks are produced here formerly michoud produced first stages for the saturn v stennis space center bay st louis mississippi space shuttle main engines are tested here as were saturn v first and second stages the center also does remote sensing and technology transfer research wallops flight center wallops island va aeronautical research sounding rockets scout launcher manager technology utilization office nasa scientific and technical information facility post office box baltimore maryland specific requests for software must go thru cosmic at the univ of georgia nasa s contracted software redistribution service you can reach them at cosmic uga bitnet note foreign nationals requesting information must go through their embassies in washington dc these are facilities of the us government and are regarded with some degree of economic sensitivity centers cannot directly return information without high center approval allow at least month for clearance this includes cosmic the us air force space command can be contacted thru the pentagon along with other department of defense offices they have unacknowledged offices in los angeles sunnyvale colorado springs and other locations they have a budget which rivals nasa in size arianespace headquarters boulevard de l europe b p evry cedex france arianespace inc pennsylvania avenue nw suite washington dc european space agency esa l enfant plaza s w washington d c national space development agency nasda hamamatsu cho chome minato ku tokyo japan soyuzkarta vologradsij pr moscow ussr space camp alabama space and rocket center u s space camp tranquility base vectorspace blvd huntsville al titusville fl registration and mailing list are handled through huntsville both camps are described in the same brochure programs offered at space camp are space camp one week youngsters completing grades space academy i one week grades aviation challenge one week high school program grades space academy ii days college accredited grades adult program days editorial comment it s great teachers program days space commerce corporation u s agent for soviet launch services pluto drive th flr texas commerce tower colorado springs co houston tx spacehab maryland avenue sw suite west washington dc spot image corporation preston white drive reston va fax other commercial space businesses vincent cate maintains a list with addresses and some info for a variety of companies in space related businesses this is mailed out on the space investors list he runs see the network resources faq and is also available by anonymous ftp from furmint nectar cs cmu edu in usr vac ftp space companies next faq schedules for space missions and how to see them
sci.space	space faq upcoming planetary probes archive name space new probes last modified date upcoming planetary probes missions and schedules information on upcoming or currently active missions not mentioned below would be welcome sources nasa fact sheets cassini mission design team isas nasda launch schedules press kits asuka astro d isas japan x ray astronomy satellite launched into earth orbit on equipped with large area wide wavelength angstrom x ray telescope x ray ccd cameras and imaging gas scintillation proportional counters cassini saturn orbiter and titan atmosphere probe cassini is a joint nasa esa project designed to accomplish an exploration of the saturnian system with its cassini saturn orbiter and huygens titan probe cassini is scheduled for launch aboard a titan iv centaur in october of after gravity assists of venus earth and jupiter in a vvejga trajectory the spacecraft will arrive at saturn in june of upon arrival the cassini spacecraft performs several maneuvers to achieve an orbit around saturn near the end of this initial orbit the huygens probe separates from the orbiter and descends through the atmosphere of titan the orbiter relays the probe data to earth for about hours while the probe enters and traverses the cloudy atmosphere to the surface after the completion of the probe mission the orbiter continues touring the saturnian system for three and a half years titan synchronous orbit trajectories will allow about flybys of titan and targeted flybys of iapetus dione and enceladus the objectives of the mission are threefold conduct detailed studies of saturn s atmosphere rings and magnetosphere conduct close up studies of saturn s satellites and characterize titan s atmosphere and surface one of the most intriguing aspects of titan is the possibility that its surface may be covered in part with lakes of liquid hydrocarbons that result from photochemical processes in its upper atmosphere these hydrocarbons condense to form a global smog layer and eventually rain down onto the surface the cassini orbiter will use onboard radar to peer through titan s clouds and determine if there is liquid on the surface experiments aboard both the orbiter and the entry probe will investigate the chemical processes that produce this unique atmosphere the cassini mission is named for jean dominique cassini the first director of the paris observatory who discovered several of saturn s satellites and the major division in its rings the titan atmospheric entry probe is named for the dutch physicist christiaan huygens who discovered titan and first described the true nature of saturn s rings key scheduled dates for the cassini mission vvejga trajectory titan iv centaur launch venus gravity assist venus gravity assist earth gravity assist jupiter gravity assist saturn arrival titan probe release titan probe entry end of primary mission schedule last updated galileo jupiter orbiter and atmosphere probe in transit has returned the first resolved images of an asteroid gaspra while in transit to jupiter efforts to unfurl the stuck high gain antenna hga have essentially been abandoned jpl has developed a backup plan using data compression jpeg like for images lossless compression for data from the other instruments which should allow the mission to achieve approximately of its original objectives galileo schedule launch from space shuttle venus flyby venus data playback st earth flyby high gain antenna unfurled st asteroid belt passage asteroid gaspra flyby nd earth flyby nd asteroid belt passage asteroid ida flyby probe separation orbiter deflection maneuver orbital tour of jovian moons jupiter io encounter ganymede ganymede callisto europa ganymede europa europa jupiter magnetotail exploration hiten japanese isas lunar probe launched has made multiple lunar flybys released hagoromo a smaller satellite into lunar orbit this mission made japan the third nation to orbit a satellite around the moon magellan venus radar mapping mission has mapped almost the entire surface at high resolution currently collecting a global gravity map mars observer mars orbiter including m pixel resolution camera launched on a titan iii tos booster mo is currently in transit to mars arriving on operations will start for one martian year days topex poseidon joint us french earth observing satellite launched on an ariane booster the primary objective of the topex poseidon project is to make precise and accurate global observations of the sea level for several years substantially increasing understanding of global ocean dynamics the satellite also will increase understanding of how heat is transported in the ocean ulysses european space agency probe to study the sun from an orbit over its poles launched in late it carries particles and fields experiments such as magnetometer ion and electron collectors for various energy ranges plasma wave radio receivers etc but no camera since no human built rocket is hefty enough to send ulysses far out of the ecliptic plane it went to jupiter instead and stole energy from that planet by sliding over jupiter s north pole in a gravity assist manuver in february this bent its path into a solar orbit tilted about degrees to the ecliptic it will pass over the sun s south pole in the summer of its aphelion is au and surprisingly its perihelion is about au that s right a solar studies spacecraft that s always further from the sun than the earth is while in jupiter s neigborhood ulysses studied the magnetic and radiation environment for a short summary of these results see science v p september for gory technical detail see the many articles in the same issue other space science missions note this is based on a posting by ron baalke in with isas nasda information contributed by yoshiro yamada yamada yscvax ysc go jp i m attempting to track changes based on updated shuttle manifests corrections and updates are welcome missions o alexis spring pegasus alexis array of low energy x ray imaging sensors is to perform a wide field sky survey in the soft low energy x ray spectrum it will scan the entire sky every six months to search for variations in soft x ray emission from sources such as white dwarfs cataclysmic variable stars and flare stars it will also search nearby space for such exotic objects as isolated neutron stars and gamma ray bursters alexis is a project of los alamos national laboratory and is primarily a technology development mission that uses astrophysical sources to demonstrate the technology contact project investigator jeffrey j bloch jjb beta lanl gov for more information o wind aug delta ii rocket satellite to measure solar wind input to magnetosphere o space radar lab sep sts srl gather radar images of earth s surface o total ozone mapping spectrometer dec pegasus rocket study of stratospheric ozone o sfu space flyer unit isas conducting space experiments and observations and this can be recovered after it conducts the various scientific and engineering experiments sfu is to be launched by isas and retrieved by the u s space shuttle on sts in o polar auroral plasma physics may delta ii rocket june measure solar wind and ions and gases surrounding the earth o iml sts nasda jul iml international microgravity laboratory o adeos nasda advanced earth observing satellite o muses b mu space engineering satellite b isas conducting research on the precise mechanism of space structure and in space astronomical observations of electromagnetic waves lunar a isas elucidating the crust structure and thermal construction of the moon s interior proposed missions o advanced x ray astronomy facility axaf possible launch from shuttle in axaf is a space observatory with a high resolution telescope it would orbit for years and study the mysteries and fate of the universe o earth observing system eos possible launch in of us orbiting space platforms to provide long term data years of earth systems science including planetary evolution o mercury observer possible launch o lunar observer possible launch would be sent into a long term lunar orbit the observer from miles above the moon s poles would survey characteristics to provide a global context for the results from the apollo program o space infrared telescope facility possible launch by shuttle in this is the th element of the great observatories program a free flying observatory with a lifetime of to years it would observe new comets and other primitive bodies in the outer solar system study cosmic birth formation of galaxies stars and planets and distant infrared emitting galaxies o mars rover sample return mrsr robotics rover would return samples of mars atmosphere and surface to earch for analysis possible launch dates for imaging orbiter for rover o fire and ice possible launch in will use a gravity assist flyby of earth in and use a final gravity assist from jupiter in where the probe will split into its fire and ice components the fire probe will journey into the sun taking measurements of our star s upper atmosphere until it is vaporized by the intense heat the ice probe will head out towards pluto reaching the tiny world for study by next faq controversial questions
sci.space	space faq calculations archive name space math last modified date performing calculations and interpreting data formats computing spacecraft orbits and trajectories references that have been frequently recommended on the net are fundamentals of astrodynamics roger bate donald mueller jerry white dover press pp us paperback isbn nasa spaceflight handbooks dating from the s sp orbital flight handbook parts sp lunar flight handbook parts sp planetary flight handbook parts these might be found in university aeronautics libraries or ordered through the us govt printing office gpo although more information would probably be needed to order them m a minovitch the determination and characteristics of ballistic interplanetary trajectories under the influence of multiple planetary attractions technical report jet propulsion laboratory pasadena calif oct the title says all starts of with the basics and works its way up very good it has a companion article m minovitch utilizing large planetary perubations for the design of deep space solar probe and out of ecliptic trajectories technical report jpl pasadena calif you need to read the first one first to realy understand this one it does include a short summary if you can only find the second contact jpl for availability of these reports spacecraft attitude dynamics peter c hughes john wiley and sons celestial mechanics a computational guide for the practitioner lawrence g taff wiley interscience new york starts with the basics body problem coordinates and works up to orbit determinations perturbations and differential corrections taff also briefly discusses stellar dynamics including a short discussion of n body problems computing planetary positions more net references van flandern pullinen low precision formulae for planetary positions astrophysical j supp series look in an astronomy or physics library for this also said to be available from willmann bell gives series to compute positions accurate to arc minute for a period or years from now pluto is included but stated to have an accuracy of only about arc minutes multiyear interactive computer almanac mica produced by the us naval observatory valid for years outside us available for ibm order pb hdv or macintosh order pb hdv from the ntis sales desk i believe this is intended to replace the usno s interactive computer ephemeris interactive computer ephemeris from the us naval observatory distributed on ibm pc floppy disks willmann bell covers dates planetary programs and tables from to bretagnon simon willmann bell floppy disks available separately fundamentals of celestial mechanics nd ed j m a danby willmann bell a good fundamental text includes basic programs a companion set of floppy disks is available separately astronomical formulae for calculators th ed j meeus willmann bell astronomical algorithms j meeus willmann bell if you actively use one of the editions of astronomical formulae for calculators you will want to replace it with astronomical algorithms this new book is more oriented towards computers than calculators and contains formulae for planetary motion based on modern work by the jet propulsion laboratory the u s naval observatory and the bureau des longitudes the previous books were all based on formulae mostly developed in the last century algorithms available separately on diskette practical astronomy with your calculator rd ed p duffett smith cambridge university press orbits for amateurs with a microcomputer d tattersfield stanley thornes ltd includes example programs in basic orbits for amateurs ii d tattersfield john wiley sons astronomy scientific software catalog of shareware public domain and commercial software for ibm and other pcs astronomy software includes planetarium simulations ephemeris generators astronomical databases solar system simulations satellite tracking programs celestial mechanics simulators and more andromeda software inc p o box amherst ny computing crater diameters from earth impacting asteroids astrogeologist gene shoemaker proposes the following formula based on studies of cratering caused by nuclear tests d s s c k w crater diameter in km g p f n s g g gravity correction factor for bodies other than g e t earth where g m s and g is the surface e t gravity of the target body this scaling is cited for lunar craters and may hold true for other bodies s p p correction factor for target density p p a t t p g cm for alluvium at the jangle u a crater site p g cm for average rock on the continental shields c crater collapse factor for craters km in diameter for larger craters on earth k km kt tnt equivalent n empirically determined from the jangle u nuclear test crater w pi d delta v projectile kinetic energy in kt tnt equivalent given diameter d velocity v and projectile density delta in cgs units delta of around g cm is fairly good for an asteroid an rms velocity of v km sec may be used for earth crossing asteroids under these assumptions the body which created the barringer meteor crater in arizona km diameter would have been about meters in diameter more generally one can use after gehrels asteroid number of objects impact probability impact energy diameter km impacts year ergs assuming simple scaling laws note that ergs tons tnt equivalent or the energy released by the hiroshima a bomb references gehrels t asteroids and comets physics today an excellent general overview of the subject for the layman shoemaker e m asteroid and comet bombardment of the earth ann rev earth planet sci very long and fairly technical but a comprehensive examination of the subject shoemaker e m j g williams e f helin r f wolfe earth crossing asteroids orbital classes collision rates with earth and origin in asteroids t gehrels ed pp university of arizona press tucson cunningham c j introduction to asteroids the next frontier richmond willman bell inc covers all aspects of asteroid studies and is an excellent introduction to the subject for people of all experience levels it also has a very extensive reference list covering essentially all of the reference material in the field map projections and spherical trignometry two easy to find sources of map projections are the encyclopaedia brittanica particularly the older volumes and a tutorial appearing in graphics gems academic press the latter was written with simplicity of exposition and suitability of digital computation in mind spherical trig formulae also appear as do digitally plotted examples more than you ever cared to know about map projections is in john snyder s usgs publication map projections a working manual usgs professional paper this contains detailed descriptions of projections with history features projection formulas for both spherical earth and ellipsoidal earth and numerical test cases it s a neat book all pages worth this one s you might also want the companion volume by snyder and philip voxland an album of map projections usgs professional paper this contains less detail on about projections and variants formulas are in the back example plots in the front pages you can order these ways the cheap slow way is direct from usgs earth science information center us geological survey national center reston va usa maps they can quote you a price and tell you where to send your money expect a week turnaround time a much faster way about week is through timely discount topos w th drive suite broomfield co call them and tell them what you want they ll quote a price you send a check and then they go to usgs customer service counter and pick it up for you add about a service charge plus shipping a perhaps more accessible mapping article is r miller and f reddy mapping the world in pascal byte v december contains turbo pascal procedures for five common map projections a demo program cartog pas and a small point coastline data is available on compuserve genie and many bbss some references for spherical trignometry are spherical astronomy w m smart cambridge u press a compendium of spherical astronomy s newcomb dover spherical astronomy r m green cambridge u press update of smart spherical astronomy e woolard and g clemence academic press performing n body simulations efficiently computer simulation using particles r w hockney and j w eastwood adam hilger bristol and philadelphia the rapid evaluation of potential fields in particle systems l greengard mit press a breakthrough o n simulation method has been parallelized l greengard and v rokhlin a fast algorithm for particle simulations journal of computational physics an o n algorithm for three dimensional n body simulations msee thesis feng zhao mit ailab technical report galactic dynamics j binney s tremaine princeton u press princeton includes an o n fortran code written by aarseth a pioneer in the field hierarchical n log n tree methods are described in these papers a w appel an efficient program for many body simulation siam journal of scientific and statistical computing vol p barnes hut a hierarchical o n log n force calculation algorithm nature v dec l hernquist hierarchical n body methods computer physics communications vol p interpreting the fits image format if you just need to examine fits images use the ppm package see the comp graphics faq to convert them to your preferred format for more information on the format and other software to read and write it see the sci astro fits faq sky unix ephemeris program the th edition of the unix operating system came with several software systems not distributed because of older media capacity limitations included were an ephmeris a satellite track and speech synthesis software the ephmeris sky is available within at t and to sites possessing a unix source code license the program is regarded as unix source code sky is mb send proof of source code license to e miya ms nasa ames research center moffett field ca eugene orville nas nasa gov three dimensional star galaxy coordinates to generate d coordinates of astronomical objects first obtain an astronomical database which specifies right ascension declination and parallax for the objects convert parallax into distance using the formula in part of the faq convert ra and declination to coordinates on a unit sphere see some of the references on planetary positions and spherical trignometry earlier in this section for details on this and scale this by the distance two databases useful for this purpose are the yale bright star catalog sources listed in faq section or the catalogue of stars within parsecs of the sun in pub space faq stars data and stars doc on ames arc nasa gov next faq references on specific areas
sci.space	astro space frequently seen acronyms archive name space acronyms edition acronym list for sci astro sci space and sci space shuttle edition dec last posted aug this list is offered as a reference for translating commonly appearing acronyms in the space related newsgroups if i forgot or botched your favorite acronym please let me know also if there s an acronym not on this list that confuses you drop me a line and if i can figure it out i ll add it to the list note that this is intended to be a reference for frequently seen acronyms and is most emphatically not encyclopedic if i incorporated every acronym i ever saw i d soon run out of disk space the list will be posted at regular intervals every days all comments regarding it are welcome i m reachable as bradfrd ncar ucar edu note that this just tells what the acronyms stand for you re on your own for figuring out what they mean note also that the total number of acronyms in use far exceeds what i can list special purpose acronyms that are essentially always explained as they re introduced are omitted further some acronyms stand for more than one thing as of edition of the list these acronyms appear on multiple lines unless they re simply different ways of referring to the same thing thanks to everybody who s sent suggestions since the first version of the list and especially to garrett a wollman wollman griffin uvm edu who is maintaining an independent list somewhat more verbose in character than mine and to daniel fischer dfi specklec mpifr bonn mpg de who is maintaining a truly huge list at last count of acronyms and terms mostly in german which i read fortunately special thanks this time to ken hollis at nasa who sent me a copy of nasa reference publication revised space transportation system and associated payloads glossary acronyms and abbreviations a truly mammoth tome almost pages of tlas special bonus at the end of this posting you will find a perl program written by none other than larry wall whose purpose is to scramble the acronym list in an entertaining fashion thanks larry a a astronomy and astrophysics aao anglo australian observatory aas american astronomical society aas american astronautical society aavso american association of variable star observers ace advanced composition explorer acrv assured crew return vehicle or astronaut crew rescue vehicle adfrf ames dryden flight research facility was dfrf nasa agn active galactic nucleus agu american geophysical union aiaa american institute of aeronautics and astronautics aips astronomical image processing system aj astronomical journal alexis array of low energy x ray imaging sensors alpo association of lunar and planetary observers als advanced launch system ansi american national standards institute aoa abort once around shuttle abort plan aocs attitude and orbit control system ap j astrophysical journal apm attached pressurized module a k a columbus apu auxiliary power unit arc ames research center nasa artemis advanced relay technology mission asa astronomical society of the atlantic asi agenzia spaziale italiano asrm advanced solid rocket motor atdrs advanced tracking and data relay satellite atlas atmospheric laboratory for applications and science atm amateur telescope maker ato abort to orbit shuttle abort plan au astronomical unit aura association of universities for research in astronomy aw st aviation week and space technology a k a avleak axaf advanced x ray astrophysics facility batse burst and transient source experiment on cgro bbxrt broad band x ray telescope astro package bem bug eyed monster bh black hole bima berkeley illinois maryland array bnsc british national space centre btw by the way c t communications tracking ccafs cape canaveral air force station ccd charge coupled device ccds centers for the commercial development of space cd rom compact disk read only memory cfa center for astrophysics cfc chlorofluorocarbon cff columbus free flyer cfht canada france hawaii telescope cgro arthur holley compton gamma ray observatory was gro chara center for high angular resolution astronomy cirris cryogenic infrared radiance instrument for shuttle cit circumstellar imaging telescope cm command module apollo spacecraft cmcc central mission control centre esa cnes centre national d etude spatiales cno carbon nitrogen oxygen cnsr comet nucleus sample return cobe cosmic background explorer comptel compton telescope on cgro costar corrective optics space telescope axial replacement craf comet rendezvous asteroid flyby crres combined release radiation effects satellite csm command and service module apollo spacecraft cstc consolidated satellite test center usaf ctio cerro tololo interamerican observatory dcx delta clipper experimental ddcu dc to dc converter unit dfrf dryden flight research facility now adfrf dmsp defense meteorological satellite program dod department of defense sometimes dod doe department of energy dot department of transportation dscs defense satellite communications system dsn deep space network dsp defense support program usaf nro eafb edwards air force base ecs environmental control system edo extended duration orbiter egret energetic gamma ray experiment telescope on cgro ejasa electronic journal of the astronomical society of the atlantic elv expendable launch vehicle emu extravehicular mobility unit eos earth observing system ers earth resources satellite as in ers esa european space agency eso european southern observatory et shuttle external tank etla extended three letter acronym etr eastern test range euv extreme ultraviolet euve extreme ultraviolet explorer eva extravehicular activity faq frequently asked questions fast fast auroral snapshot explorer fft fast fourier transform fgs fine guidance sensors on hst fhst fixed head star trackers on hst fir far infrared fits flexible image transport system foc faint object camera on hst fos faint object spectrograph on hst frr flight readiness review ftp file transfer protocol fts flight telerobotic servicer fuse far ultraviolet spectroscopic explorer fwhm full width at half maximum fyi for your information gas get away special gbt green bank telescope gcvs general catalog of variable stars gem giotto extended mission geo geosynchronous earth orbit gds great dark spot ghrs goddard high resolution spectrograph on hst gif graphics interchange format glomr global low orbiting message relay gmc giant molecular cloud gmrt giant meter wave radio telescope gmt greenwich mean time also called ut goes geostationary orbiting environmental satellite gox gaseous oxygen gpc general purpose computer gps global positioning system gro gamma ray observatory now cgro grs gamma ray spectrometer on mars observer grs great red spot gsc guide star catalog for hst gsfc goddard space flight center nasa gto geostationary transfer orbit hao high altitude observatory hd henry draper catalog entry heao high energy astronomical observatory hera hermes robotic arm hf high frequency hga high gain antenna hlc heavy lift capability hlv heavy lift vehicle hmc halley multicolor camera on giotto hr hertzsprung russell diagram hri high resolution imager on rosat hsp high speed photometer on hst hst hubble space telescope hut hopkins ultraviolet telescope astro package hv high voltage iappp international amateur professional photoelectric photometry iau international astronomical union iauc iau circular ice international cometary explorer ida international dark sky association idl interactive data language igm intergalactic medium igy international geophysical year imho in my humble opinion iota infrared optical telescope array iota international occultation timing association ips inertial pointing system ir infrared iraf image reduction and analysis facility iras infrared astronomical satellite isas institute of space and astronautical science japan ism interstellar medium iso infrared space observatory iso international standards organization ispm international solar polar mission now ulysses isy international space year iue international ultraviolet explorer ius inertial upper stage jem japanese experiment module for ssf jgr journal of geophysical research jila joint institute for laboratory astrophysics jpl jet propulsion laboratory jsc johnson space center nasa kao kuiper airborne observatory kpno kitt peak national observatory ksc kennedy space center nasa ktb cretaceous tertiary boundary from german lanl los alamos national laboratory larc langley research center nasa ldef long duration exposure facility lem lunar excursion module a k a lm apollo spacecraft leo low earth orbit lerc lewis research center nasa lest large earth based solar telescope lfsa list of frequently seen acronyms lga low gain antenna lgm little green men lh liquid hydrogen also lh or lhx llnl lawrence livermore national laboratory lm lunar module a k a lem apollo spacecraft lmc large magellanic cloud ln liquid n nitrogen lox liquid oxygen lrb liquid rocket booster lsr local standard of rest ltp lunar transient phenomenon mb manned base mcc mission control center meco main engine cutoff mmh monomethyl hydrazine mmt multiple mirror telescope mmu manned maneuvering unit mnras monthly notices of the royal astronomical society moc mars observer camera on mars observer mol manned orbiting laboratory mola mars observer laser altimeter on mars observer momv manned orbital maneuvering vehicle motv manned orbital transfer vehicle mpc minor planets circular mrsr mars rover and sample return mrsrm mars rover and sample return mission msfc george c marshall space flight center nasa mtc man tended capability naca national advisory committee on aeronautics became nasa nasa national aeronautics and space administration nasda national space development agency japan nasm national air and space museum nasp national aerospace plane nbs national bureau of standards now nist ndv nasp derived vehicle nerva nuclear engine for rocket vehicle application ngc new general catalog nicmos near infrared camera multi object spectrometer hst upgrade nims near infrared mapping spectrometer on galileo nir near infrared nist national institute for standards and technology was nbs nldp national launch development program noaa national oceanic and atmospheric administration noao national optical astronomy observatories nrao national radio astronomy observatory nro national reconnaissance office ns neutron star nsa national security agency nsf national science foundation nso national solar observatory nssdc national space science data center ntr nuclear thermal rocket ry ntt new technology telescope oao orbiting astronomical observatory ocst office of commercial space transportation omb office of management and budget oms orbital maneuvering system opf orbiter processing facility orfeus orbiting and retrievable far and extreme ultraviolet spectrometer osc orbital sciences corporation oscar orbiting satellite carrying amateur radio ossa office of space science and applications osse oriented scintillation spectrometer experiment on cgro ota optical telescope assembly on hst othb over the horizon backscatter otv orbital transfer vehicle ov orbital vehicle pam payload assist module pam d payload assist module delta class pi principal investigator plss portable life support system pm pressurized module pmc permanently manned capability pmirr pressure modulated infrared radiometer on mars observer pmt photomultiplier tube psf point spread function psr pulsar pv photovoltaic pvo pioneer venus orbiter qso quasi stellar object rci rodent cage interface for sls mission rcs reaction control system rem rat enclosure module for sls mission rf radio frequency rfi radio frequency interference riacs research institute for advanced computer science rms remote manipulator system rngc revised new general catalog rosat roentgen satellite rous rodents of unusual size i don t believe they exist rsn real soon now rtg radioisotope thermoelectric generator rtls return to launch site shuttle abort plan saa south atlantic anomaly saga solar array gain augmentation for hst sampex solar anomalous and magnetospheric particle explorer sao smithsonian astrophysical observatory sar search and rescue sar synthetic aperture radar sara satellite pour astronomie radio amateur sarex search and rescue exercise sarex shuttle amateur radio experiment sas space activity suit sas space adaptation syndrome sat synthetic aperture telescope s c spacecraft sca shuttle carrier aircraft sct schmidt cassegrain telescope sdi strategic defense initiative sdio strategic defense initiative organization sei space exploration initiative sest swedish eso submillimeter telescope seti search for extraterrestrial intelligence sid sudden ionospheric disturbance sir shuttle imaging radar sirtf space formerly shuttle infrared telescope facility sl spacelab slar side looking airborne radar slc space launch complex sls space lab life sciences smc small magellanic cloud sme solar mesosphere explorer smex small explorers smm solar maximum mission sn supernova e g sn a snr signal to noise ratio snr supernova remnant snu solar neutrino units sofia stratospheric observatory for infrared astronomy soho solar heliospheric observatory span space physics and analysis network spdm special purpose dextrous manipulator spot systeme probatoire pour l observation de la terre sps solar power satellite srb solid rocket booster srm solid rocket motor ssf space station fred er freedom ssi solid state imager on galileo ssi space studies institut ssme space shuttle main engine sspf space station processing facility ssrms space station remote manipulator system sst spectroscopic survey telescope sst supersonic transport ssto single stage to orbit stis space telescope imaging spectrometer to replace foc and ghrs sts shuttle transport system or space transportation system stsci space telescope science institute swas submillimeter wave astronomy satellite swf shortwave fading tal transatlantic abort landing shuttle abort plan tau thousand astronomical unit mission tcs thermal control system tdrs tracking and data relay satellite tdrss tracking and data relay satellite system tes thermal emission spectrometer on mars observer tiros television infrared observation satellite tla three letter acronym toms total ozone mapping spectrometer tps thermal protection system tss tethered satellite system uars upper atmosphere research satellite ubm unpressurized berthing mechanism udmh unsymmetrical dimethyl hydrazine ufo unidentified flying object ugc uppsala general catalog uhf ultra high frequency uit ultraviolet imaging telescope astro package ukst united kingdom schmidt telescope usaf united states air force usmp united states microgravity payload ut universal time a k a gmt utc or zulu time utc coordinated universal time a k a ut uv ultraviolet uvs ultraviolet spectrometer vab vehicle assembly building formerly vertical assembly building vafb vandenberg air force base veega venus earth earth gravity assist galileo flight path vhf very high frequency vla very large array vlba very long baseline array vlbi very long baseline interferometry vlf very low frequency vlt very large telescope vms vertical motion simulator voir venus orbiting imaging radar superseded by vrm vpf vertical processing facility vrm venus radar mapper now called magellan wd white dwarf wfpc wide field planetary camera on hst wfpcii replacement for wfpc wiyn wisconsin indiana yale noao telescope wsmr white sands missile range wtr western test range wuppe wisconsin ultraviolet photopolarimter experiment astro package xmm x ray multi mirror xuv extreme ultraviolet yso young stellar object usr bin perl alt an acronym scrambling program by larry wall threshold srand while next unless a z s key acro key words split w unshift words key off foreach word words next unless word a z w vec w word off foreach letter a z w letter w keys w if w threshold d egrep letter usr dict words chop d push w d foreach key sort keys acro off acro acro key acro s a z a z a z pick off eg print key acro sub pick local letter prefix oldword off i if length prefix index key prefix if prefix eq oldword prefix else prefix letter if length prefix local w substr prefix do word w rand w until word ne oldword word prefix i i word s prefix prefix i word elsif length prefix local w prefix do word w rand w until word ne oldword vec w word off i word u l word if word tr a z a z word else local w substr oldword do word w rand w until word ne oldword word tr a z a z i word mark bradford bradfrd ncar ucar edu to err is human to moo bovine it s an ill wind that gathers no moss
sci.space	re hlv for fred was re prefab space station in article c a gzx news cso uiuc edu jbh uxa cso uiuc edu josh hopkins writes titan iv launches ain t cheap granted but that s because titan iv s are bought by the governemnt titan iii is actually the cheapest way to put a pound in space of all us expendable launchers in that case it s rather ironic that they are doing so poorly on the commercial market is there a single titan iii on order the problem with commercial titan is that mm has made little or no attempt to market it they re basically happy with their government business and don t want to have to learn how to sell commercially a secondary problem is that it is a bit big they d need to go after multi satellite launches a la ariane and that complicates the marketing task quite significantly they also had some problems with launch facilities at just the wrong time to get them started properly if memory serves the pad used for the mars observer launch had just come out of heavy refurbishment work that had prevented launches from it for a year or so there have been a few ct launches mars observer was one of them so was that stranded intelsat and at least one of its brothers that reached orbit properly all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	re space research spin off in article c zxa k zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes in article ppm j ip access digex net prb access digex com pat writes i thought the area rule was pioneered by boeing nasa guys developed the rule but no one knew if it worked until boeing built the hardware and maybe the fb nope the decisive triumph of the area rule was when convair s yf contractually commmitted to being a mach fighter and actually found to be incapable of going supersonic in level flight was turned into the area ruled yf a which met the specs this was well before either the or the fb the flew in late and convair spent most of the first half of figuring out what went wrong and most of the second half building the first a all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry good thing i stuck in a couple of question marks up there i seem to recall somebody built or at least proposed a wasp waisetd passenger civil transport i thought it was a but maybe it was a dc sure it had a funny passenger compartment but on the other hand it seemed to save fuel i thought area rules applied even before transonic speeds just not as badly pat
sci.space	orbit data help needed i have the osculating elements at perigee of an orbit which i need to convert to something useful preferably distance from the earth in evenly spaced time intervals a gsm coordinate system is preferable but i convert from other systems c pascal or fortran code or if you can point me to a book or something that d be great here s the first few lines of the file x a x a x i x a x e x a x e sma semi major axis ecc eccentricity inc inclination omg ra of ascending node pom argument of pericentre tra true anomaly hap apocentre height hpe pericentre height beg e sma e ecc e inc e omg e pom e tra e hap e hpe e ref e sma e ecc e inc e omg e pom e tra e hap e hpe e thanks in advance larry kepko lkepko igpp ucla edu
sci.space	re nuclear waste in article rins ryukoku ac jp will rins ryukoku ac jp william reiken writes the real reason why accelerator breeders or incinerators are not being built is that there isn t any reason to do so natural uranium is still too cheap and geological disposal of actinides looks technically reasonable november december page science and technology in japan seawater uranium recovery experiment the ground uranium reserves are estimated at about million tons and it is anticipated that the demand and supply balance will collapse by the end of the th century in japan a resources poor country technological development are now under way to economically collect uranium dissolved in seawater the total quanity of uranium dissolved in seawater is estimated to be about billion tons a huge amount when compared with ground uranium reserves i hate to pour cold water on this but currently seawater extracted uranium even using the new improved fiber absorbers from japan is about times more expensive than uranium on the spot market uranium is very cheap right now around lb right now there are mines closing because they can t compete with places like cigar lake in canada where the ore is so rich they present safety hazards to the mines who work in shielded vehicles plenty of other sources for example uranium from phosphate processing would come on line before uranium reached lb demand and supply balance will collapse is nonsense supply and demand always balance what changes is the price is uranium going to increase in price by a factor of by the end of the century not bloody likely new nuclear reactors are not being built at a sufficient rate uranium from seawater is interesting but it s a long term project or a project that the japanese might justify on grounds of self sufficiency paul f dietz dietz cs rochester edu
sci.space	nasa dis incentives questions and issues wrt congress raised and discussed dennis replies now black when it is white is just white except that when black is called white money is put into the system in a study to find out just when it is justified to call black white it is also apparant that when white is called black just the opposite occurs now white is a color but when white is called black it calls into question the validity of the color spectrum it is a given however that nasa nor the military whose competence in differentating black from white is well known remember the black and white paint on the saturn v rocket that nothing will occur here either when black and white are used by congress who cares nothing for results just more money for pork barrel jobs brought about by the black white controversy dennis why must you always see things in black and white terms tommy mac tom mcwilliams wk as the radius of vision increases tm ibm cl msu edu hm the circumference of mystery grows
sci.space	re alaska pipeline and space station in article apr mksol dseg ti com mccall mksol dseg ti com fred j mccall writes i think this would be a great way to build it but unfortunately current spending rules don t permit it to be workable for this to work it would be necessary for the government to guarantee a certain minimum amount of business in order to sufficiently reduce the risk enough to make this attractive to a private firm since they generally can t allocate money except one year at a time the government can t provide such a tenant guarantee fred try reading a bit the government does lots of multi year contracts with penalty for cancellation clauses they just like to be damn sure they know what they are doing before they sign a multi year contract the reason they aren t cutting defense spending as much as they would like is the reagan administration signed enough multi year contracts that it s now cheaper to just finish them out look at ssf this years funding is billion of which will cover penalty clauses due to the re design pat
sci.space	el sets i am looking for a source of orbital element sets other than uaf space command i believe there is one on compuserve please let me know what other possible sources there are and how i can reach them thanks much
sci.space	re vulcan no not the guy with the ears victor inqmind bison mb ca victor laking writes does anyone have any info on the apparent sightings of vulcan all that i know is that there were apparently two sightings at drastically different times of a small planet that was inside mercury s orbit beyond that i have no other info does anyone know anything more specific yes this happened long before star trek and is apparently where they got the reference for the guy with the ears yes long before star trek before einstein in fact vulcan as a planet inside mercury was hypothesized to explain a perturbation of mercury s orbit that could not be explained by the known planets but einstein s theory of relativity explained mercury s motion and analysis of mercury s motion now shows there are not any planets inside its orbit mike
sci.space	griffin office of exploration rip any comments on the absorbtion of the office of exploration into the office of space sciences and the reassignment of griffin to the chief engineer position is this just a meaningless administrative shuffle or does this bode ill for sei in my opinion this seems like a bad thing at least on the surface griffin seemed to be someone who was actually interested in getting things done and who was willing to look an innovative approaches to getting things done faster better and cheaper it s unclear to me whether he will be able to do this at his new position does anyone know what his new duties will be brian yamauchi case western reserve university yamauchi alpha ces cwru edu department of computer engineering and science
sci.space	funding for nasa i am doing a political science paper on the funding of nasa and pork barrel politics i would be interested in information about funding practices and histories of some of the major programs apollo sts ssf etc and the funding of ssto to contrast could someone please recommend some sources that would be useful thank you sean gallagher gallas rpi edu
sci.space	alaska pipeline and space station on date apr gmt ralph buttigieg ralph buttigieg f n z fido zeta org au writes why can t the government just be a tennant private commercial concerns could just build a space station system and charge rent to the government financed researchers wanting to use it i believe that this was the thought behind the industrial space facility i don t remember all the details but i think space services wanted nasa to sign an anchor tenancy deal in order to help secure some venture capital but nasa didn t like the deal i m sure i ll hear about it if i m wrong disclaimer opinions stated are solely my own unless i change my mind ben muniz munizb rwtms decnet consrt rockwell com w space station freedom rocketdyne rockwell structural loads and dynamics man will not fly for fifty years wilbur to orville wright
sci.space	long island was why use ac at khz for ssf power on date fri apr gmt edmund hack arabia hack writes in article pgdno t access digex net prb access digex com pat writes i always thought gd s fighter plants were in long island no northrup has a plant on long island i don t think northrup ever had a plant on long island the two main airframe manufacturers there were fairchild republic which closed its doors after the t cancellation and grumman which is still hanging on last i time i called i think sperry also started there if you re ever in the area check out the cradle of aviation museum at mitchell field now mostly parking lots behind the nassau coliseum and the community college good display of vehicles from long island including a lem flight article disclaimer opinions stated are solely my own unless i change my mind ben muniz munizb rwtms decnet consrt rockwell com w space station freedom rocketdyne rockwell structural loads and dynamics man will not fly for fifty years wilbur to orville wright
sci.space	how do they ignite the ssme on date sat apr gmt paul dietz dietz cs rochester edu writes in essence holding a match under the nozzle is just nuts one thing you absolutely must do in such an engine is to guarantee that the propellants ignite as soon as they mix within milliseconds to do otherwise is to fill your engine with a high explosive mixture which when it finally does ignite blows everything to hell definitely in one of the reports of an early test conducted by rocketdyne at their santa susanna field lab the hill above the san fernando and simi valleys the result of a hung start was described as structural failure of the combustion chamber the inspection picture showed pumps with nothing below the cc had vaporized this was described in a class i took as a typical engineering understatement disclaimer opinions stated are solely my own unless i change my mind ben muniz munizb rwtms decnet consrt rockwell com w space station freedom rocketdyne rockwell structural loads and dynamics man will not fly for fifty years wilbur to orville wright
sci.space	re vulcan no not the guy with the ears in article vnci b w w inqmind bison mb ca victor inqmind bison mb ca victor laking writes from victor inqmind bison mb ca victor laking subject vulcan no not the guy with the ears date sun apr cdt does anyone have any info on the apparent sightings of vulcan all that i know is that there were apparently two sightings at drastically different times of a small planet that was inside mercury s orbit beyond that i have no other info does anyone know anything more specific as i heard the story before albert came up the the theory o relativity and warped space nobody could account for mercury s orbit it ran a little fast i think for simple newtonian physics with the success in finding neptune to explain the odd movments of uranus it was postulated that there might be another inner planet to explain mercury s orbit it s unlikely anything bigger than an asteroid is closer to the sun than mercury i m sure we would have spotted it by now perhaps some professionals can confirm that james t green jgreen oboe calpoly edu heaven n a place where the wicked cease from troubling you with talk of their own personal affairs and the good listen with attention while you expound your own ambrose bierce the devil s dictionary
sci.space	re comet in temporary orbit around jupiter shag aero org rob unverzagt writes in article apr kelvin jpl nasa gov baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov ron baalke writes according the iau circular comet shoemaker levy e may be temporarily in orbit around jupiter the comet had apparently made a close flyby of jupiter sometime in resulting in the breakup of the comet attempts to determine the comet s orbit has been complicated by the near impossibility of measuring the comet s center of mass am i missing something what does knowing the comet s center of mass do for you in orbit determination shag i m not sure but it almost sounds like they can t figure out where the nucleus is within the coma if they re off by a couple hundred miles well you can imagine the rest phil fraering seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff pgf srl cacs usl edu like how the ancient mayans had televison repo man
sci.space	blow up space station easy way to do it this might a real wierd idea or maybe not i have seen where people have blown up ballons then sprayed material into them that then drys and makes hard walls why not do the same thing for a space station fly up the docking rings and baloon materials and such blow up the baloons spin then around i know a problem in micro gravity let them dry cure harden and cut a hole for the docking attaching ring and bingo a space station of course the ballons would have to be foil covered or someother radiation protective covering heat shield and the material used to make the wals would have to meet the out gasing and other specs or atleast the paint covering of the inner wall would have to be human safe maybe a special congrete or maybe the same material as makes caplets but with some changes saw where someone instea dof water put beer in the caplet mixture got a mix that was just as strong as congret but easier to carry around and such sorry for any spelling errors i missed school today grin why musta space station be so difficult why must we have girders why be confined to earth based ideas lets think new ideas after all space is not earth why be limited by earth based ideas michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked going crazy in nome alaska break up is here
sci.space	m supernova how bout some more info on that alleged supernova in m i might just break out the scope for this one no sir i don t like it mr horse dan kelo dkelo pepvax pepperdine edu
sci.space	what if the ussr had reached the moon first suppose the soviets had managed to get their moon rocket working and had made it first they could have beaten us if either their rocket hadn t blown up on the pad thus setting them back and or a saturn v went boom if they had beaten us i speculate that the us would have gone head and done some landings but we also would have been more determined to set up a base both in earth orbit and on the moon whether or not we would be on mars by now would depend upon whether the soviets tried to go setting up a lunar base would have stretched the budgets of both nations and i think that the military value of a lunar base would outweigh the value of going to mars at least in the short run thus we would have concentrated on the moon james t green jgreen oboe calpoly edu i believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving the goal before this decade is out of landing a man on the moon and returning him safely to the earth john f kennedy may
sci.space	re portable small ground station dir in article c zgam nj zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes in article apr aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes how difficult would it be to set up your own ground station ground station for what at one extreme some of the amateur radio satellites have sometimes been reachable with hand held radios at the other nothing you can do in your back yard will let you listen in on galileo please be more specific all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry specific basically to be able to do the things the big dadies can do monitor and control if need be the shuttle such as the one in australia and such michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked
sci.space	re space research spin off shafer rigel dfrf nasa gov mary shafer writes on apr prb access digex com pat said pat in article apr aurora alaska edu pat nsmca aurora alaska edu writes question is can someone give me examples of direct nasa space related research that helped humanity in general it will be interesting to see pat tang mylar i think i think they also pushed hi tech pat composites for airframes look at fly by wire swept wings if you fly in airliners you ve reaped the benefits didn t one of the early jet fighters have these i also think the germans did some work on these in wwii winglets area ruling digital fly by wire ride smoothing a lot of this was also done by the military microwave landing systems supercritical wings general aviation air foils weren t the first microwave landing systems from wwii too mary shafer dod kotfr nasa dryden flight research facility edwards ca shafer rigel dfrf nasa gov of course i don t speak for nasa a mig at your six is better than no mig at all unknown us fighter pilot egad i m disagreeing with mary shafer phil fraering seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff pgf srl cacs usl edu like how the ancient mayans had televison repo man
sci.space	re griffin office of exploration rip yamauchi ces cwru edu brian yamauchi writes any comments on the absorbtion of the office of exploration into the office of space sciences and the reassignment of griffin to the chief engineer position is this just a meaningless administrative shuffle or does this bode ill for sei in my opinion this seems like a bad thing at least on the surface griffin seemed to be someone who was actually interested in getting things done and who was willing to look an innovative approaches to getting things done faster better and cheaper it s unclear to me whether he will be able to do this at his new position does anyone know what his new duties will be first i ve heard of it offhand griffin is no longer an office head so that s bad on the other hand regress seemed to think we can t fund anything by griffin because that would mean and we have the lies by the old hardliners about the billion mars mission to prove it that we would be buying into a mission to mars that would cost billion therefore there will be no artemis or million dollar lunar orbiter et cetera they were killing griffin s main program simply because some sycophants somewhere had congress beleivin that to do so would simply be to buy into the same old stuff sorta like not giving aid to yeltsin because he s a communist hardliner at least now the sort of reforms griffin was trying to bring forward won t be trapped in their own little easily contained and defunded ghetto that griffin is staying in some capacity is very very very good and if he brings something up noone can say why don t you go back to the ose where you belong and where he couldn t even get money for design studies phil fraering seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff pgf srl cacs usl edu like how the ancient mayans had televison repo man
sci.space	re dc x vehicle nears flight test in article c zhkw dn zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes in article snap paj uk co gec mrc paul johnson writes this bit interests me how much automatic control is there is it purely autonomous or is there some degree of ground control the stick and rudder man is always the onboard computer the computer normally gets its orders from a stored program but they can be overridden from the ground how is the transition from aerodynamic flight if thats what it is to hover accomplished this is the really new part it s also one of the tricky parts there are four different ideas and dc x will probably end up trying all of them this is from talking to mitch burnside clapp who s one of the dc x test pilots at making orbit pop a drogue chute from the nose light the engines once the thing stabilizes base first simple and reliable heavy shock loads on an area of structure that doesn t otherwise carry major loads needs a door in the hot part of the structure a door whose operation is mission critical switch off pitch stability the dc is aerodynamically unstable at subsonic speeds wait for it to flip and catch it at degrees then light engines a bit scary light the engines and use thrust vectoring to push the tail around probably the preferred method in the long run tricky because of the fuel feed plumbing the fuel will start off in the tops of the tanks then slop down to the bottoms during the flip keeping the engines properly fed will be complicated build up speed in a dive then pull up hard losing a lot of speed this thing s l d is not that great until it s headed up and the vertical velocity drops to zero at which point it starts to fall tail first light engines also a bit scary and you probably don t have enough altitude left to try again all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry since the dc x is to take off horizontal why not land that way why do the martian landing thing or am i missing something don t know to much about dc x and such overly obvious why not just fall to earth like the russian crafts parachute in then michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked please enlighten me ignorance is easy to correct make a mistake and everyone will let you know you messed up
sci.space	alaska pipeline and space station go commerical sounds liek what the fed has to do is sign a or more year lease to use certain parts of a space station that is built and designed and such by a commerical company or consortium of companies such as like alyeska for a small amount of rent in return for certain incentives and such such as tax and other right off and also a monopoly on certain products the commerical builders would have certain perks given to them to make there end easier taxes contracts regulatory concesions and such is it workable just might work after all if china can lease out hong kong and the people of hong kong can make money this could work michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked
sci.space	re terraforming venus can it be done cheaply would someone please send me james oberg s email address if he has one and if someone reading this list knows it i wanted to send him a comment on something in his terraforming book paul f dietz dietz cs rochester edu potential explosive yield of the annual global production of borax million megatons
sci.space	mach landing site bases the supersonic booms hear a few months ago over i belive san fran heading east of what i heard some new super speed mach aircraft what military based int he direction of flight are there that could handle a mach aircraft on its landing decent odd question michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked
sci.space	re nuclear waste in article mar mksol dseg ti com mccall mksol dseg ti com fred j mccall writes just a bit off phil we don t reprocess nuclear fuel because what you get from the reprocessing plant is bomb grade plutonium it is also cheaper given current prices of things to simply fabricate new fuel rods rather than reprocess the old ones creating potentially dangerous materials from a national security point of view and then fabricate that back into fuel rods fabricating with reprocessed plutonium may result in something that may go kind of boom but its hardly decent bomb grade plutonium if you want bomb grade plutonium use a research reactor not a power reactor but if you want a bomb don t use plutonium use uranium kenneth ng please reply to ken eies njit edu for now all this might be an elaborate simulation running in a little device sitting on someone s table j l picard st tng
sci.space	re griffin office of exploration rip yamauchi ces cwru edu brian yamauchi writes any comments on the absorbtion of the office of exploration into the office of space sciences and the reassignment of griffin to the chief engineer position is this just a meaningless administrative shuffle or does this bode ill for sei unfortunately things have been boding ill is that a legitimate conjugation for a while while the office of exploration had some great ideas they never got much money i ve heard good things about griffin but it s hard to want him back in a job where he couldn t do anything does anyone know what his new duties will be the group examining the freedom based space station redesign proposals is headed by michael griffin nasa s cheif engineer in the words of space news i believe this is him josh hopkins jbh uxa cso uiuc edu tout ce qu un homme est capable d imaginer d autres hommes seront capable de la realiser jules verne
sci.space	re dc x vehicle nears flight test nsmca aurora alaska edu writes excellent discussion of dc x landing techniques by henry deleted since the dc x is to take off horizontal why not land that way the dc x will not take of horizontally it takes of vertically why do the martian landing thing for several reasons vertical landings don t require miles of runway and limit noise pollution they don t require wheels or wings just turn on the engines and touch down of course as henry pointed out vetical landings aren t quite that simple or am i missing something don t know to much about dc x and such overly obvious well to be blunt yes but at least you re learning why not just fall to earth like the russian crafts parachute in then the soyuz vehicles use parachutes for the descent and then fire small rockets just before they hit the ground parachutes are however not especially practical if you want to reuse something without much effort the landings are also not very comfortable however in the words of georgy grechko i prefer to have bruises not to sink josh hopkins jbh uxa cso uiuc edu tout ce qu un homme est capable d imaginer d autres hommes seront capable de la realiser jules verne
sci.space	re space food sticks i had spacefood sticks just about every morning for breakfast in first and second grade they came in chocolate strawberry and peanut butter and were cylinders about cm long and cm in diameter wrapped in yellow space foil well it seemed like space foil at the time the taste is hard to describe although i remember it fondly it was most certainly more candy than say a modern power bar sort of a toffee injected with vitamins the chocolate power bar is a rough approximation of the taste strawberry sucked man these were my s gavin helf uc berkeley political science berkeley stanford program in soviet studies ghelf violet berkeley edu
sci.space	re area rule was re space research spin off can somebody elaborate on area ruling i gather it s something to do with aerodynamics of trans sonic planes and can be summarised as coke bottle good coke can bad anyone provide more details derivation etc gregory bond gnb bby com au burdett buckeridge young ltd melbourne australia knox s is slick fox in sox on knox s box knox s box is very quick plays lots of lsl he s sick apologies to john iron bar mackin
sci.space	re comet in temporary orbit around jupiter baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov ron baalke writes according the iau circular comet shoemaker levy e may be temporarily in orbit around jupiter the comet had apparently made a close flyby of jupiter sometime in resulting in the breakup of the comet ooooh who would have thought that galileo would get the chance to check out a comet too
sci.space	re so i m an idiot what else is new in article aa jsc nasa gov mcelwre cnsvax uwec edu r e mcelwaine writes russia s operative in march russian president boris yeltsin proposed to the united states and the united nations a global defense shield with star wars type weapons against funny a bit disturbing forging a posting seems somewhat unethical even if the subject is as notorious as mcelwaine followups should definitely not go to sci space david rickel drickel sjc mentorg com
sci.space	re magellan venus maps thanks thanks ron and peter for some very nice maps i have an advice though you wrote that the maps were reduced to colors as far ad i understand jpeg pictures gets much better and the compressed files smaller if you use the original color bit data when converting to jpeg thanks again roland karlsson sics po box s kista sweden internet roland sics se tel fax telex sics ttx sics
sci.space	ssf redesign constellation ssf is up for redesign again let s do it right this time let s step back and consider the functionality we want microgravity vacuum process research life sciences research adaptation to space spacecraft maintenence the old nasa approach explified by shuttle and ssf so far was to centralize functionality these projects failed to meet their targets by a wide margin the military and commercial users took most of their payloads off shuttle after wasting much effort to tie their payloads to it and ssf has crumbled into disorganization and miscommunication over billion has been spent on these two projects with no reduction in launch costs and littel improvement in commercial space industrialization meanwhile military and commercial users have come up with a superior strategy for space development the constellation firstly different functions are broken down into different constellations placed in the optimal orbit for each function thus we have the gps navstar constellation in hour orbits comsats in clarke and molniya orbits etc secondly the task is distributed amongst several spacecraft in a constellation providing for redundancy and full coverage where needed ssf s main functions require quite different environments and are also prime candidates for constellization we have the makings of a microgravity constellation now comet and mir for long duration flights shuttle spacelab for short duration flights the best strategy for this area is inexpensive incremental improvement installation of u s facilities on mir shuttle mir linkup and transition from shuttle spacelab to a much less expensive ssto spacehab comet or ssto sif comet we might also expand the research program to take advantage of interesting space environments eg the high radiation van allen belt or gas plasma gradients in comet tails the comet system can be much more easily retrofitted for these tasks where a station is too large to affordably launch beyond leo we need to study life sciences not just in microgravity but also in lunar and martian gravities and in the radiation environments of deep space instead of the protected shelter of leo this is a very long term low priority project since astronauts will have little practical use in the space program until costs come down orders of magnitude furthermore using astronauts severely restricts the scope of the investigation and the sample size so i propose labratsat a constellation tether bolo satellites that test out various levels of gravity in super van allen belt orbits that are representative of the radiation environment encountered on earth moon earth mars earth asteroid etc trips the miniaturized life support machinery might be operated real time from earth thru a vr interface after several orbital missions have been flown follow ons can act as ldefs on the lunar and martian surface testing out the actual environment at low cost before billions are spent on astronauts by far the largest market for spacecraft servicing is in clarke orbit i propose a fleet of small teleoperated robots and small test satellites on which ground engineers can practice their skills once in place robots can pry stuck solar arrays and antennas attach solar battery power packs inject fuel etc once the fleet is working it can be spun off to commercial company s who can work with the comsat companies to develop comsat replaceable module standards by applying the successful constellation strategy and getting rid of the failed centralized strategy of sts and old ssf we have radically improved the capability of the program while greatly cutting its cost for a fraction of ssf s pricetag we can fix satellites where the satellites are we can study life s adaptation to a much large more representative variety of space environments and we can do microgravity and vacuum research inexpensively and if needed in special purpose orbits n b we can apply the constellation strategy to space exploration as well greatly cutting its cost and increasing its functionality mars network and artemis are two good examples of this more ambitiously we can set up a network of native propellant plants on mars that can be used to fuel planet wide rover ballistic hopper prospecting and sample return the descendants of labratsat s technology can be used as a mars surface ldef and to test out closed ecology greenhouses on mars at low cost nick szabo szabo techboook com
sci.space	re quaint us archaisms in article c wc b m cs cmu edu nickh cs cmu edu nick haines writes oh and the other advantage is that you don t have shit constants like hanging around no instead you have stupid things like and and and and and how many cc s in a ml anyway the metric system has its problems just not as many of them david rickel drickel sjc mentorg com
sci.space	the area rule i read it refered to as the parabolic cross section rule the idea was that if you plot the area of the fuselage cross section as a function of the point fore and aft along the fuselage a plot that is a paraboloid minimizes somethin or nother to be technical about it fred baube tm in times of intellectual ferment baube optiplan fi advantage to him with the intellect include disclaimer h most fermented may paris it s retrospective time
sci.space	re hlv for fred was re prefab space station in article c a gzx news cso uiuc edu jbh uxa cso uiuc edu josh hopkins writes titan iii is the cheapest us launcher on a lb basis in that case it s rather ironic that they are doing so poorly on the commercial market is there a single titan iii on order they have a few problems the biggest technical problem is the need to find two satellites going to the same rough orbit for a luanch they also don t show much interest in commercial launches there is more money to be made churning out titan iv s for the government after all it isn t every day you find a sucker er customer who thinks paying three times the commercial rate for launch services is a good idea allen allen w sherzer a great man is one who does nothing but leaves aws iti org nothing undone days to first flight of dcx
sci.space	re alaska pipeline and space station in article apr mksol dseg ti com mccall mksol dseg ti com fred j mccall writes why can t the government just be a tennant i think this would be a great way to build it but unfortunately current spending rules don t permit it to be workable actually that is no longer true in the last few years congress has ammended laws to provide whatever is needed note that both spacehab and comet are funded this way the problems aren t legal nor technical the problem is nasa s culture allen allen w sherzer a great man is one who does nothing but leaves aws iti org nothing undone days to first flight of dcx
sci.space	re space food sticks john elson jelson rcnext cso uiuc edu wrote has anyone ever heard of a food product called space food sticks i remember those awful things they were dry and crumbly and i recall asking my third grade teacher miss g francisco how they kept the crumbs from floating around in zero g she had no clue i have not seen anything like them in today s space program some apollo technology is best forgotten ken jenks nasa jsc gm space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov here men from the planet earth first set foot upon the moon july a d we came in peace for all mankind
sci.space	re metric vs english in apr pixel kodak com dj ekcolor ssd kodak com dave jones writes keith mancus mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov wrote bruce dunn mindlink bc ca bruce dunn writes si neatly separates the concepts of mass force and weight which have gotten horribly tangled up in the us system this is not a problem with english units a pound is defined to be a unit of force period there is a perfectly good unit called the slug which is the mass of an object weighing lbs at sea level g ft sec of course american military english units perhaps us real english types were once taught that a pound is mass and a poundal is force being that force that causes pound to accelerate at ft s we had a rare olde tyme doing our exams in those units and metric as well american perhaps but nothing military about it i learned mostly slugs when we talked english units in high school physics and while the teacher was an ex navy fighter jock the book certainly wasn t produced by the military poundals were just too flinking small and made the math come out funny sort of the same reason proponents of si give for using that insisting on perfect safety is for people who don t have the balls to live in the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com i don t speak for others and they don t speak for me
sci.space	re market or gov failures in c tcl xi cs cmu edu tm msu edu tom writes fred saying that gov coercive poser is necessary for any space program i reply btw fred you ve really crossed the border since you admit that the ideas you support can only be carried out with coercive power now that s really f in intolerant so get off yer high horse about tolerance fred replies no tommy i admit that there are such things as market failures which necessitate intervention by other than capitalist forces to correct i guess your understanding of this market failure should be classified under phil s economics on the level of th century medicine since you apparently completely ignored that this market failure can as easily or even much more easily be attributed to government intervention failure so in addition to a strong moral argument against what you propose there is also a strong utilitarian argument namely that gov s destruction of wealth through confiscastory taxation and redistribution on a major scale has made significant private capital investments harder to make i note that you make no such case as you claim can be even more easily made yes the argument can and has been made that current government policy creates even larger market barriers than there were in the first place but there is no such term as government failure since the government can change policies whenever it pleases the market doesn t do that and is governed by relatively well understood forces this libertopican bilge about moral arguments about taxation etc is at bottom so much simplistic economic thinking it can only be justified by cliche derision of anyone who knows more about economics than the libertopian which is what invariably happens tripe a la tommy the new libertopian dish get a clue little boy and go salve your wounded pride in my not considering you infallible in some other fashion i m not interested in your ego games puh leese fred this besides being simply an attempt to be insulting really belongs on private mail if ego games are so unimportatnt to you why the insults and this strange negative attatchment for me wherever do you get this inflated idea of your own importance insisting on perfect safety is for people who don t have the balls to live in the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com i don t speak for others and they don t speak for me
sci.space	re what if the ussr had reached the moon first jgreen trumpet calpoly edu james thomas green writes if they had beaten us i speculate that the us would have gone head and done some landings but we also would have been more determined to set up a base both in earth orbit and on the moon whether or not we would be on mars by now would depend upon whether the soviets tried to go setting up a lunar base would have stretched the budgets of both nations and i think that the military value of a lunar base would outweigh the value of going to mars at least in the short run thus we would have concentrated on the moon great speculation i remember being proud on behalf of all the free world you think that way when you are seven years old that we had got there first now i m almost sorry that it worked out that way i guess the soviets would have taken the victory seriously too and would almost certainly not have fallen victim to the complacency that overtook the us program perhaps stretching to match us efforts would have destabilized them sooner than it did in fact and in the tradition of marvel comics what if this destabilization in the brezhnev era might have triggered the third world war hmm maybe it was a giant leap after all internet pete extro su oz au accept everything uucp uunet mcvax munnari extro pete reject nothing
sci.space	re nuclear waste in apr cs rochester edu dietz cs rochester edu paul dietz writes in article apr mksol dseg ti com mccall mksol dseg ti com fred j mccall writes this system would produce enough energy to drive the accelerator perhaps with some left over a very high power s of mw cw or quasi cw very sharp proton beam would be required but this appears achievable using a linear accelerator the biggest question mark would be the lead target chemistry and the on line processing of all the elements being incinerated paul quite frankly i ll believe that this is really going to work on the typical trash one needs to process when i see them put a couple tons in one end and get relatively clean material out the other end plus be able to run it off its own residual power sounds almost like perpetual motion doesn t it fred the honest thing to do would be to admit your criticism on scientific grounds was invalid rather than pretend you were actually talking about engineering feasibility given you postings i can t say i am surprised though well pardon me for trying to continue the discussion rather than just tugging my forelock in dismay at having not considered actually trying to recover the energy from this process which is at least trying to go the right way on the energy curve now where did i put those sackcloth and ashes i was not and am not pretending anything i am so pleased you are not surprised though no it is nothing like perpetual motion note that i didn t say it was perpetual motion or even that it sounded like perpetual motion the phrase was sounds almost like perpetual motion which i at least consider a somewhat different propposition than the one you elect to criticize perhaps i should beg your pardon for being too precise in my use of language the physics is well understood the energy comes from fission of actinides in subcritical assemblies folks have talked about spallation reactors since the s pulsed spallation neutron sources are in use today as research tools accelerator design has been improving particularly with superconducting accelerating cavities which helps feasibility los alamos has expertise in high current accelerators lampf so i believe they know what they are talking about i will believe that this process comes even close to approaching technological and economic feasibility given the mixed nature of the trash that will have to be run through it as opposed to the costs of separating things first and having a different run for each actinide when i see them dump a few tons in one end and pull relatively clean material out the other once the costs technological risks etc are taken into account i still class this one with the idea of throwing waste into the sun sure it s possible and the physics are well understood but is it really a reasonable approach and i still wonder at what sort of burning rate you could get with something like this as opposed to what kind of energy you would really recover as opposed to what it would cost to build and power with and without the energy recovery are we talking ounces pounds or tons grams kilograms or metric tons for you si fans of material and are we talking days weeks months or years days weeks months or years for you si fans hmmm still using a non decimated time scale i see the real reason why accelerator breeders or incinerators are not being built is that there isn t any reason to do so natural uranium is still too cheap and geological disposal of actinides looks technically reasonable insisting on perfect safety is for people who don t have the balls to live in the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com i don t speak for others and they don t speak for me
sci.space	re nuclear waste in pp reinnonl phantom gatech edu matthew phantom gatech edu matthew deluca writes in article rins ryukoku ac jp will rins ryukoku ac jp william reiken writes well this pretty much says it i have gotten alot of replys to this and it looks like oil is only on earth so if those greedy little oil companys who obviously don t give about it uses up all the oil then that leaves us high a dry greedy little oil companies don t blame them oil companies just supply the demand created by you me and just about everyone else on the planet if we run out its all our faults he also ignores a few other things while organics would become significantly more expensive were all the oil to disappear and thus some things would no longer be economically feasible oil is hardly an irreplaceable resource any more than most other consumables as supply decreases prices rise and alternatives become more competetive he also needs to consider that there has been an estimated years of reserves pretty much as long as anyone has cared about petroleum whatever the current usage rate is we always seem to have about a year reserve that we know about i m not sure that last figure is still true we tend not to look as hard when prices are comparatively cheap but it was certainly true during hte oil crisis days of the s insisting on perfect safety is for people who don t have the balls to live in the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com i don t speak for others and they don t speak for me
sci.space	sts press kit does anyone know ifthe sts email press kit was ever released tony ryan astronomy space new international magazine available from astronomy ireland p o box dublin ireland issues one year sub uk pounds us surface add us airmail access visa mastercard accepted give number expiration date name address world s largest astro soc per capita unless you know better tel uk n ireland eire cost up to p per min
sci.space	dutch symposium compacte objecten sterrenkundig symposium compacte objecten op april in het jaar zeven jaar na de oprichting van de universiteit van utrecht benoemde de universiteit haar eerste sterrenkundige waarnemer hiermee ontstond de tweede universiteitssterrenwacht ter wereld aert jansz de eerste waarnemer en zijn opvolgers voerden de utrechtse sterrenkunde in de daaropvolgende jaren decennia en eeuwen naar de voorhoede van het astronomisch onderzoek dit jaar is het jaar geleden dat deze historische benoeming plaatsvond de huidige generatie utrechtse sterrenkundigen en studenten sterrenkunde verenigd in het sterrekundig instituut utrecht vieren de benoeming van hun oervader middels een breed scala aan feestelijke activiteiten zo is er voor scholieren een planetenproject programmeert de studium generale een aantal voordrachten met een sterrenkundig thema en wordt op de dies natalis aan een astronoom een eredoctoraat uitgereikt er staat echter meer op stapel studenten natuur en sterrenkunde kunnen op april aan een sterrenkundesymposium deelnemen de onderwerpen van het symposium zijn opgebouwd rond een van de zwaartepunten van het huidige utrechtse onderzoek het onderzoek aan de zogeheten compacte objecten de eindstadia in de evolutie van sterren bij de samenstelling van het programma is getracht de deelnemer een zo aktueel en breed mogelijk beeld te geven van de stand van zaken in het onderzoek aan deze eindstadia in de eerste inleidende lezing zal dagvoorzitter prof lamers een beknopt overzicht geven van de evolutie van zware sterren waarna de zeven overige sprekers in lezingen van telkens een half uur nader op de specifieke evolutionaire eindprodukten zullen ingaan na afloop van elke lezing is er gelegenheid tot het stellen van vragen het dagprogramma staat afgedrukt op een apart vel het niveau van de lezingen is afgestemd op tweedejaars studenten natuur en sterrenkunde ook andere belangstellenden zijn van harte welkom tijdens de lezing van prof kuijpers zullen als alles goed gaat de veertien radioteleskopen van de radiosterrenwacht westerbork worden ingezet om via een directe verbinding tussen het heelal westerbork en utrecht het zwakke radiosignaal van een snel roterende kosmische vuurtoren een zogeheten pulsar in de symposiumzaal door te geven en te audiovisualiseren prof kuijpers zal de binnenkomende signalen elkaar snel opvolgende scherp gepiekte pulsen radiostraling bespreken en trachten te verklaren het slagen van dit unieke experiment staat en valt met de technische haalbaarheid ervan de op te vangen signalen zijn namelijk zo zwak dat pas na een waarnemingsperiode van miljoen jaar genoeg energie is opgevangen om een lamp van watt een seconde te laten branden tijdens het symposium zal er niet zo lang gewacht hoeven te worden de hedendaagse technologie stelt ons in staat live het heelal te beluisteren deelname aan het symposium kost f exclusief lunch en f inclusief lunch inschrijving geschiedt door het verschuldigde bedrag over te maken op abn amro rekening t n v stichting jus het gironummer van de abn amro bank utrecht is bij de inschrijving dient te worden aangegeven of men lid is van de nnv na inschrijving wordt de symposiummap toegestuurd bij inschrijving na maart vervalt de mogelijkheid een lunch te reserveren het symposium vindt plaats in transitorium i universiteit utrecht voor meer informatie over het symposium kan men terecht bij henrik spoon p a s r o n sorbonnelaan ca utrecht tel e mail henriks sron ruu nl dagprogramma ontvangst met koffie thee opening prof dr h j g l m lamers utrecht dubbelster evolutie prof dr h j g l m lamers radiopulsars prof dr j m e kuijpers utrecht pulsars in dubbelster systemen prof dr f verbunt utrecht massa straal van neutronensterren prof dr j van paradijs amsterdam theorie van accretieschijven drs r f van oss utrecht lunch hoe zien accretieschijven er werkelijk uit dr r g m rutten amsterdam snelle fluktuaties bij accretie op neutronensterren en zwarte gaten dr m van der klis amsterdam thee koffie zwarte gaten knippen en plakken met ruimte en tijd prof dr v icke leiden afsluiting borrel gert jan van lochem what is it fysische informatica something blue universiteit utrecht shapes i need shapes hhgg
sci.space	cosmos i need as much information about cosmos and its rocket fragment b as possible both its purpose launch date location in short everything can you help tony ryan astronomy space new international magazine available from astronomy ireland p o box dublin ireland issues one year sub uk pounds us surface add us airmail access visa mastercard accepted give number expiration date name address world s largest astro soc per capita unless you know better tel uk n ireland eire cost up to p per min
sci.space	re comet in temporary orbit around jupiter in article apr den mmc com seale possum den mmc com eric h seale writes baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov ron baalke writes according the iau circular comet shoemaker levy e may be temporarily in orbit around jupiter the comet had apparently made a close flyby of jupiter sometime in resulting in the breakup of the comet ooooh who would have thought that galileo would get the chance to check out a comet too comet gehrels which was discovered in was determined to have been in a temporary jovian orbit from to comet shoemaker levy e may remain in orbit around jupiter long enough to allow galileo to make some closeup observations the orbital trajectory for comet shoemaker levy is still being determined ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab m s telos being cynical never helps pasadena ca to correct the situation and causes more aggravation instead
sci.space	summer internships hi folks not exactly certain if this is the best place to ask but i am searching for a summer internship in engineering i will be graduating in early may with a b s in aerospace engineering and then pursuing my masters this fall does anyone know of anything that is available i am in the process of applyi ng to some of the larger companies ie macdac martin marietta lockheed if a nyone knows of anything i would appreciate it if you could mail it to me thanks in advance mark smilor msmilor skat usc edu or smilor aludra usc edu
sci.space	re space food sticks in article pr u t b agate berkeley edu ghelf violet berkeley edu rd writes i had spacefood sticks just about every morning for breakfast in first and second grade they came in chocolate strawberry and peanut butter and were cylinders about cm long and cm in diameter wrapped in yellow space foil well it seemed like space foil at the time wasn t there a plain flavor too they looked more like some kind of extruded industrial product than food perfectly smooth cylinders with perfectly smooth ends kinda scary the taste is hard to describe although i remember it fondly it was most certainly more candy than say a modern power bar sort of a toffee injected with vitamins the chocolate power bar is a rough approximation of the taste strawberry sucked an other post described it as like a microwaved tootsie roll which captures the texture pretty well as for taste they were like candy only not very sweet does that make sense i recall liking them for their texture not taste i guess i have well developed texture buds man these were my s it was obligatory to eat a few while watching captain scarlet does anybody else remember that as long as we re off the topic of space shag rob unverzagt shag aerospace aero org tuesday is soylent green day unverzagt courier aero org
sci.space	re nuclear waste in article pp reinnonl phantom gatech edu matthew phantom gatech edu matthew deluca writes greedy little oil companies don t blame them oil companies just supply the demand created by you me and just about everyone else on the planet if we run out its all our faults ok so how about the creation of oil producing bacteria i figure that if you can make them to eat it up then you can make them to shit it any comments will
sci.space	re nuclear waste thanks for the update will
sci.space	re space food sticks in article c z ee news cso uiuc edu jelson rcnext cso uiuc edu john elson writes has anyone ever heard of a food product called space food sticks this was apparently created marketed around the time of the lunar expeditions along with tang and other dehydrated foods i have spoken with several people who have eaten these before and they described them as a dehydrated candy any information would be greatly appreciated a freeze dried tootsie roll tm the actual taste sensation was like nothing you will ever willingly experience the amazing thing was that we ate a second one and a third and i doubt that they actually flew on missions as i m certain they did bad things to the gastrointestinal tract compared to space food sticks tang was a gastronomic contribution to mankind dillon pyron the opinions expressed are those of the ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated when i m here when i m home god gave us weather so we wouldn t complain pyron skndiv dseg ti com about other things padi dm ps i don t think tang flew either although it was developed under contract
sci.space	re pushing the envelope in apr princeton edu lije cognito princeton edu elijah millgram writes a friend of mine and i were wondering where the expression pushing the envelope comes from anyone out there know every aircraft has flight constraints for speed aoa power when graphed these define the flight envelope of that aircraft presumably so named because the graphed line encloses envelopes the area on the graph that represents conditions where the aircraft doesn t fall out of the sky hence pushing the envelope becomes operating at or beyond the edge of the flight or operational envelope note that the envelope isn t precisely known until someone actually flies the airplane in those regions up to that point all there are are the theoretical predictions hence one of the things test pilots do for a living is push the envelope to find out how close the correspondence between the paper airplane and the metal one is in essence pushing back the edges of the theoretical envelope to where the airplane actually starts to fail to fly note too that this is done is a quite calculated and careful way flight tests are generally carefully coreographed and just what is going to be pushed and how far is precisely planned despite occasional deviations from plans such as the early first flight of the f during its high speed taxi tests i m sure mary can tell you everything you ever wanted to know about this process and then some insisting on perfect safety is for people who don t have the balls to live in the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com i don t speak for others and they don t speak for me
sci.space	re comet in temporary orbit around jupiter comet p helin roman crockett also spent some time as a temporary satellite to jupiter a few years ago if you believe the calculations by tancredi g lindgren m and rickman h astron astrophys pp mats lindgren mats lindgren astro uu se astronomical observatory laban ml box uppsala phone sweden fax
sci.space	re abyss breathing fluids in article grv psuvm psu edu callec dradja grv psuvm psu edu writes i am a bit nervous about posting this beacause it is begining to stray fron the topic of space but then again that doesn t seem to stop alot of other people with all of this talk about breathing at high pressures i began to think about the movie abyss if you remember in that movie one of the characters dove to great depths by wearing a suit that used a fluid that carries oxegen as opposed to some sort of gas now i have heard that mice can breath this fluid but for some reason humans are unable to does anyone know more details about this gregson vaux i believe the reason is that the lung diaphram gets too tired to pump the liquid in and out and simply stops breathing after minutes so if your in the vehicle ready to go they better not put you on hold or else that s about it remember a liquid is several more times as dense as a gas by its very nature i think depending on the gas and liquid comparision of course acurist
sci.space	re what if the ussr had reached the moon first in article apr zeus calpoly edu jgreen trumpet calpoly edu james thomas green writes suppose the soviets had managed to get their moon rocket working and had made it first they could have beaten us if either their rocket hadn t blown up on the pad thus setting them back and or a saturn v went boom the apollo fire was harsh a saturn v explosion would have been hurtful but the soviets winning would have been crushing that could have been the technological turning point for the us turning us from today s we can do anything we re the super power to a much more reserved attitude like the soviet program today kennedy was gone by the war was still on is the east i think the program would have stalled badly and the goal of the moon by would have been dead with nasa trying to figure were they went wrong if they had beaten us i speculate that the us would have gone head and done some landings but we also would have been more determined to set up a base both in earth orbit and on the moon whether or not we would be on mars by now would depend upon whether the soviets tried to go setting up a lunar base would have stretched the budgets of both nations and i think that the military value of a lunar base would outweigh the value of going to mars at least in the short run thus we would have concentrated on the moon i speulate that the saturn program would have been pushed into the s with cost over runs that would just be too evil nixon still wins the shuttle was never proposed and skylab never built by the program stalled yet again under the fuel crisis a string of small launches mark the mid seventies by the goal of a us man on the moon is dead and the us space program drifts till the present day james t green jgreen oboe calpoly edu i believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving the goal before this decade is out of landing a man on the moon and returning him safely to the earth john f kennedy may
sci.space	re abyss breathing fluids in article c t k cck coventry ac uk enf cck coventry ac uk achurist writes i believe the reason is that the lung diaphram gets too tired to pump the liquid in and out and simply stops breathing after minutes so if your in the vehicle ready to go they better not put you on hold or else that s about it remember a liquid is several more times as dense as a gas by its very nature i think depending on the gas and liquid comparision of course could you use some sort of mechanical chest compression as an aid sorta like the portable iron lung put some sort of flex tubing around the aquanauts chest cyclically compress it and it will push enough on the chest wall to support breathing you d have to trust your breather but in space you have to trust your suit anyway pat
sci.space	re pushing the envelope in apr princeton edu lije cognito princeton edu elijah millgram writes a friend of mine and i were wondering where the expression pushing the envelope comes from anyone out there know everbody has been defining envelope why was the world envelope chosen rather than say shell or boundary in analogy with the envelopes of airships perhaps actually shell might be good push the shell too hard and it the aircraft breaks thomas clarke institute for simulation and training university of central fl research parkway suite orlando fl fax clarke acme ucf edu
sci.space	cosmos an eorsat date tue apr gmt i need as much information about cosmos and its rocket fragment b as possible both its purpose launch date location in short everything can you help tony ryan astronomy space new international magazine available from ocean reconnaissance launch surprises west space news april p excerpts russia launched its first ocean reconnaissance satellite in months march confounding western analysts who had proclaimed the program dead the itar tass news agency announced the launch of cosmos from plesetsk cosmodrome but provided little description of the payload s mission however based on the satellite s trajectory western observers identified it as a military spacecraft designed to monitor electronic emissions from foreign naval ships in order to track their movement geoff perry of the kettering group in england said western observers had concluded that no more would be launched but days after the last such satellite re entered the earth s atmosphere cosmos was launched cosmos satellite launched for defense ministry moscow itar tass world service in russian gmt march translated in fbis sov p by itar tass correspondent veronika romanenkova moscow march the cosmos satellite was launched at moscow time today from the baykonur by a tsiklon m carrier rocket an itar tass correspondent was told at the press center of russia s space military forces that the satellite was launched in the interests of the russian defense ministry parameters given moscow itar tass world service in russian gmt march translated in fbis sov p moscow march another artificial earth satellite cosmos was launched on march from the baykonur cosmodrome the satellite carries scientific apparatus for continuing space research the satellite has been placed in an orbit with the following parameters initial period of revolution minutes apogee km perigee km orbital inclination degrees besides scientific apparatus the satellite carries a radio system for the precise measurement of orbital elements and a radiotelemetry system for transmitting to earth data about the work of the instruments and scientific apparatus the apparatus aboard the satellite is working normally
sci.space	aerospace companies cooperate in reusable vehicle market what would all of you out there in net land think of the big martin mariatta boeing mcdonell douglas general dynamics lockheed rockwell getting together and forming a consortium to study exactly what the market price pints are for building reusable launch vehicles and spending say million to do that recognizing that most of the military requirements for launch vehicles are pulled out of a hat somewhere say has the shuttle ever really used that mi crossrange capability you get the idea figure out how many how often where to etc then taking this data and forming a sematech type company bad example i know but at least its an example to develop between and craft designs then to take all of those designs and figure out exactly what the technologies are and demonstrate those technologies in order to eliminate designs that can t be built today and lets say that this portion again funded by the gov cost about million and from here all of these companies went their separate ways with the intention of taking all of the market data and the design data to wall street and saying i want to build this vehicle and here are the numbers that show roi fund me now many of you think that this is a joke but i have it on good authority that just this project is shaping up in the background it seems that the aerospace companies have learned that everyone yelling similar but different things ends up in many programs that do nothing much and get canceled nasp nls als dcy etc they need to work more in the japaneese and european spirit of initial cooperation they have also learned that design requirements that are phony i e some generals idea of what a space vehicle ought to be ends up getting chopped up in congress because it is not a real requirement any feedback john
sci.space	ssto senatorial aide breifing recollections the following are my thoughts on a meeting that i hugh kelso and bob lilly had with an aide of sen patty murrays we were there to discuss ssto and commercial space this is how it went after receiving a packet containing a presentation on the benifits of ssto i called and tried to schedule a meeting with our local senator d patty murray washington state i started asking for an hour and when i heard the gasp on the end of the phone i quickly backed off to an hour later in that conversation i learned that a standard appointment is minutes we got the standard bozo treatment that is we were called back by an aide who scheduled a meeting with us in order to determine that we were not bozos and to familiarize himself with the material and to screen it to make sure that it was appropriate to take the senators time with that material well i got allocated hour with sen murrays aide and we ended up talking to him for minutes with us ending the meeting and him still listening we covered a lot of ground and only a little tiny bit was dcx specific most of it was a single stage reusable vehicle primer there was another woman there who took copius quantities of notes on every topic that we brought up but with murray being new we wanted to entrench ourselves as non corporate aligned i e not speaking for boeing local citizens interentested in space so we spent a lot of time covering the benifits of lower cost access to leo solar power satellites are a big focus here so we hit them as becoming feasible with lower cost access and we hit the environmental stand on that we hit the tourism angle and i left a copy of the patric collins tourism paper with side notes being that everyone who goes into space and sees the atmosphere becomes more of an environmentalist esp after seeing the smog over l a we hit on the benifits of studying bone decalcification which is more pronounced in space and said that that had potential to lead to understanding of and maybe a cure for osteoporosis we hit the education whereby kids get enthused by space but as they get older and find out that they havent a hop in hell of actually getting there they go on to other fields with low cost to orbit the chances they might get there someday would provide greater incentive to hit the harder classes needed we hit a little of the get nasa out of the operational launch vehicle business angle we hit the lower cost of satellite launches gps navigation personal communicators tellecommunications new services etc jobs provided in those sectors jobs provided building the thing balance of trade improvement etc we mentioned that skypix would benifit from lower launch costs we left the paper on what technologies needed to be invested in in order to make this even easier to do and he asked questions on this point we ended by telling her that we wanted her to be aware that efforts are proceeding in this area and that we want to make sure that the results from these efforts are not lost much like condor or majellan and most importantly we asked that she help fund further efforts along the lines of lowering the cost to leo in the middle we also gave a little speal about the lunar resource data purchase act and the guy filed it separately he was very interested in it he asked some questions about it and seemed like he wanted to jump on it and contact some of the people involved with it so something may actually happen immediatly there the last two things we did were to make sure that they knew that we knew a lot of people in the space arena here in town and that they could feel free to call us any time with questions and if we didn t know the answers that we would see to it that they questions got to people who really did know the answers then finally we asked for an appointment with the senator herself he said that we would get on the list and he also said that knowing her this would be something that she would be very interested in although they do have a time problem getting her scheduled since she is only in the state week out of these days all in all we felt like we did a pretty good job john
sci.space	re space research spin off on tue apr gmt pgf srl cacs usl edu phil g fraering said phil shafer rigel dfrf nasa gov mary shafer writes on apr prb access digex com pat said pat in article apr aurora alaska edu pat nsmca aurora alaska edu writes question is can someone give me examples of direct nasa space related research that helped humanity in general it will be interesting to see pat tang mylar i think i think they also pushed hi tech pat composites for airframes look at fly by wire swept wings if you fly in airliners you ve reaped the benefits phil didn t one of the early jet fighters have these i also think phil the germans did some work on these in wwii the naca came up with them before world war ii nasa is directly descended from the naca with space added in you ll notice that i didn t mention sweep wings even though the x tested at what s now dryden had them we did steal that one dirctly from the germans the difference is that swept wings don t change their angle of sweep sweep wings do perhaps the similarity of names has caused some confusion s have swept wings f s have sweep wings winglets area ruling digital fly by wire ride smoothing phil a lot of this was also done by the military after nasa aerodynamicists proposed them and nasa test teams demonstrated them richard whitcomb and r t jones at langley research center were giants in the field dryden was involved in the flight testing of winglets and area ruling in the s and s respectively it s true that we used military aircraft as the testbeds kc and yf but that had more to do with availability and need than with military involvement the yf was completely ours and the kc was bailed to us the air force of course was interested in our results and supportive of our efforts dryden flew the first digital fly by wire aircraft in the s no mechnaical or analog backup to show you how confident we were general dynamics decided to make the f flyby wire when they saw how successful we were mind you the avro arrow and the x were both fly by wire aircraft much earlier but analog phil egad i m disagreeing with mary shafer the nasa habit of acquiring second hand military aircraft and using them for testbeds can make things kind of confusing on the other hand all those second hand navy planes give our test pilots a chance to fold the wings something most pilots at edwards air force base can t do mary shafer dod kotfr nasa dryden flight research facility edwards ca shafer rigel dfrf nasa gov of course i don t speak for nasa a mig at your six is better than no mig at all unknown us fighter pilot
sci.space	re space food sticks in article pr u t b agate berkeley edu ghelf violet berkeley edu rd writes the taste is hard to describe although i remember it fondly it was most certainly more candy than say a modern power bar sort of a toffee injected with vitamins the chocolate power bar is a rough approximation of the taste strawberry sucked peanut butter was definitely my favorite i don t think i ever took a second bite of the strawberry i recently joined nutri system and their chewy fudge bar is very reminicent of the chocolate space food this is the only thing i can find that even comes close the taste it takes you back your taste buds are happy and your intestines are in knots joy mark adam paix sw stratus com my opinions are not those of stratus hell i don t even agree with myself logic is a wreath of pretty flowers that smell bad
sci.space	re comet in temporary orbit around jupiter in article apr kelvin jpl nasa gov baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov ron baalke writes comet gehrels which was discovered in was determined to have been in a temporary jovian orbit from to comet shoemaker levy e may remain in orbit around jupiter long enough to allow galileo to make some closeup observations the orbital trajectory for comet shoemaker levy is still being determined a what about positional uncertainties in s l e i assume we know where and what galileo is doing within a few meters but without the hga don t we have to have some pretty good ideas of where to look before imaging if the hga was working they could slew around in near real time less speed of light delay but when they were imaging toutatis didn t someone have to get lucky on a guess to find the first images also i imagine s l e will be mostly a visual image so how will that affect the other imaging missions with the lga there is a real tight allocation of bandwidth it may be premature to hope for answers but i thought i d throw it on the floor pat
sci.space	plutonium based nuclear power plants todays new york times just wrote about a pact being negotiated between us and the russians to develope high temperature gas cooled fission reactors using re cycled weapons grade plutonium from warhead stockpiles the fuel will be pelletized in ceramic for safety and then after depletion will be sufficiently contaminated with by products to make extraction of the remaining plutonium hazardous enough to deter re use apparently the project will be led by general atomics of san diego with funding from the us government the pilot plant will be built and operated by the russians pat
sci.space	re vulcan no not the guy with the ears in article vnci b w w inqmind bison mb ca victor inqmind bison mb ca victor laking writes does anyone have any info on the apparent sightings of vulcan all that i know is that there were apparently two sightings at drastically different times of a small planet that was inside mercury s orbit beyond that i have no other info the sightings were apparently spurious there is no planet inside of the orbit of mercury the idea of vulcan came from the differences between mercury s observed perihelion precession and the value it should have had according to newtonian physics leverrier made an extensive set of observations and calculations during the mid th century and simon newcombe later improved on the observations and re calculated using leverrier s system of equations now leverrier was one of the co discoverers of neptune and since he had predicted its existence based on anomalies in the orbit of uranus his inclination was to believe the same sort of thing was afoot with mercury but alas twere not so mercury s perihelion precesses at the rate it does because the space where it resides near the sun is significantly curved due to the sun s mass this explanation had to wait until and albert einstein s synthesis of his earlier theory of the electrodynamics of moving bodies commonly called special relativity with reimanian geometry the result was the general theory of relativity and one of it s most noteworthy strengths is that it accounts for the precession of mercury s perihelion almost exactly exactly if you use newcomb s numbers rather than leverrier s of course not everybody believes einstein and that s fine but subsequent efforts to find any planets closer to the sun than mercury using radar have been fruitless bill gawne forgive him he is a barbarian who thinks the customs of his tribe are the laws of the universe g j caesar any opinions are my own nothing in this post constitutes an official statement from any person or organization
sci.space	re nuclear waste in article apr mksol dseg ti com mccall mksol dseg ti com fred j mccall writes in apr cs rochester edu dietz cs rochester edu paul dietz writes paul quite frankly i ll believe that this is really going to work on the typical trash one needs to process when i see them put a couple tons in one end and get relatively clean material out the other end plus be able to run it off its own residual power sounds almost like perpetual motion doesn t it i will believe that this process comes even close to approaching technological and economic feasibility given the mixed nature of the trash that will have to be run through it as opposed to the costs of separating things first and having a different run for each actinide when i see them dump a few tons in one end and pull relatively clean material out the other once the costs technological risks etc are taken into account i still class this one with the idea of throwing waste into the sun sure it s possible and the physics are well understood but is it really a reasonable approach how is it ever going to be an off the shelf technology if someone doesn t do it maybe we should do this as part of the ssf design goals gee fred after your bitter defense of khz power as a basic technology for ssf id think you would support a minor research program like this and does anyone who knows more particle physics then me know if the ipns could prove this technology the real reason why accelerator breeders or incinerators are not being built is that there isn t any reason to do so natural uranium is still too cheap and geological disposal of actinides looks technically reasonable it may also help there is political gridlock on the entire nuclear technical agenda there were big political opponenents to fast breeder technologies wipp is being fought to death in courts even if you could make a nuclear incinerator do you really think even deaf smith county nevada would accept it nimby ism rules nuclear power concerns only the medical community has been able to overrule nuclear technology opposition
sci.space	re space research spin off in article shafer apr rigel dfrf nasa gov shafer rigel dfrf nasa gov mary shafer writes dryden flew the first digital fly by wire aircraft in the s no mechnaical or analog backup to show you how confident we were confident or merely crazed that desert sun successful we were mind you the avro arrow and the x were both fly by wire aircraft much earlier but analog gee i thought the x was cable controlled didn t one of them have a total electrical failure in flight was there machanical backup systems the nasa habit of acquiring second hand military aircraft and using them for testbeds can make things kind of confusing on the other hand all those second hand navy planes give our test pilots a chance to fold the wings something most pilots at edwards air force base can t do what do you mean overstress the wings and they fail at teh joints you ll have to enlighten us in the hinterlands pat
sci.space	re space food sticks dillon comments that space food sticks may have bad digestive properties i don t think so i think most nasa food products were designed to be low fiber zero residue products so as to minimize the difficulties of waste disposal i d doubt they d deploy anything that caused whole sale gi distress there aren t enough plastic baggies in the world for a bad case of gi disease pat
sci.space	re the area rule i am sure mary or henry can describe this more aptly then me but here is how i understand it at speed near supersonic the wind behaves like a fluid pipe it becomes incompressible so wind has to bend away from the wing edges as the wing thickens the more the pipes bend if they have no place to go they begin to stall and force compression stealing power from the vehicle high drag if you squeeze the fuselage so that these pipes have aplace to bend into then drag is reduced essentially teh cross sectional area of the aircraft shoulf remain constant for all areas of the fuselage that is where the wings are subtract teh cross sectional area of the wings from the fuselage pat
sci.space	re dc x vehicle nears flight test in apr aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes since the dc x is to take off horizontal why not land that way why do the martian landing thing or am i missing something don t know to much about dc x and such overly obvious you missed something i think it takes off vertically and is intended to land the same way insisting on perfect safety is for people who don t have the balls to live in the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com i don t speak for others and they don t speak for me
sci.space	re alaska pipeline and space station in pq rj q u access digex net prb access digex com pat writes in article apr mksol dseg ti com mccall mksol dseg ti com fred j mccall writes i think this would be a great way to build it but unfortunately current spending rules don t permit it to be workable for this to work it would be necessary for the government to guarantee a certain minimum amount of business in order to sufficiently reduce the risk enough to make this attractive to a private firm since they generally can t allocate money except one year at a time the government can t provide such a tenant guarantee fred try reading a bit the government does lots of multi year contracts with penalty for cancellation clauses they just like to be damn sure they know what they are doing before they sign a multi year contract the reason they aren t cutting defense spending as much as they would like is the reagan administration signed enough multi year contracts that it s now cheaper to just finish them out i don t have to try reading a bit pat i work as a government contractor and know what the rules are like yes they sign some damned few which is why everyone is always having to go to washington to see about next week s funding multi year contracts they also aren t willing to include sufficient cancellation penalties when they do decide to cut the multi year contract and not pay on it which can happen arbitrarily at any time no matter what previous plans were to make the risk acceptable of something like putting up a private space station with the government as the expected prime occupant i d like a source for that statement about the reason they aren t cutting defense spending as much as they would like i just don t buy it the other thing i find a bit funny about your posting pat is that several other people answered the question pretty much the same way i did mine is the one you comment and incorrectly i think on i think that says a lot you and tommy should move in together insisting on perfect safety is for people who don t have the balls to live in the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com i don t speak for others and they don t speak for me
sci.space	re comet in temporary orbit around jupiter in article psfan pj access digex net prb access digex com pat writes in article apr kelvin jpl nasa gov baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov ron baalke writes comet gehrels which was discovered in was determined to have been in a temporary jovian orbit from to comet shoemaker levy e may remain in orbit around jupiter long enough to allow galileo to make some closeup observations the orbital trajectory for comet shoemaker levy is still being determined a what about positional uncertainties in s l e if comet shoemaker levy e is in jovian orbit and if the comet is still hanging around when galileo arrives then i m sure it will be added to the list of targets we ll have by then over two years of earth based observations to help narrow down the positions of the pieces of the comet it probably won t be too much different than what was done with gaspra but when they were imaging toutatis galileo did not image toutatis that came from earth based radar ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab m s telos being cynical never helps pasadena ca to correct the situation and causes more aggravation instead
sci.space	re nuclear waste in article rins ryukoku ac jp will rins ryukoku ac jp william reiken writes ok so how about the creation of oil producing bacteria i figure that if you can make them to eat it up then you can make them to shit it any comments sure why keep using oil a hydrogen electric economy would likely be cleaner and more efficient in the long run the laws of supply and demand should get the transition underway before we reach a critical stage of shortage matthew deluca georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism matthew internet matthew phantom gatech edu
sci.space	gibbons outlines ssf redesign guidance nasa headquarters distributed the following press release today i ve typed it in verbatim for you folks to chew over many of the topics recently discussed on sci space are covered in this gibbons outlines space station redesign guidance dr john h gibbons director office of science and technology policy outlined to the members designate of the advisory committee on the redesign of the space station on april three budget options as guidance to the committee in their deliberations on the redesign of the space station a low option of billion a mid range option of billion and a high option of billion will be considered by the committee each option would cover the total expenditures for space station from fiscal year through and would include funds for development operations utilization shuttle integration facilities research operations support transition cost and also must include adequate program reserves to insure program implementation within the available funds over the next years billion is reserved within the nasa budget for the president s new technology investment as a result station options above billion must be accompanied by offsetting reductions in the rest of the nasa budget for example a space station option of billion would require billion in offsets from the nasa budget over the next years gibbons presented the information at an organizational session of the advisory committee generally the members designate focused upon administrative topics and used the session to get acquainted they also received a legal and ethics briefing and an orientation on the process the station redesign team is following to develop options for the advisory committee to consider gibbons also announced that the united states and its international partners the europeans japanese and canadians have decided after consultation to give full consideration to use of russian assets in the course of the space station redesign process to that end the russians will be asked to participate in the redesign effort on an as needed consulting basis so that the redesign team can make use of their expertise in assessing the capabilities of mir and the possible use of mir and other russian capabilities and systems the u s and international partners hope to benefit from the expertise of the russian participants in assessing russian systems and technology the overall goal of the redesign effort is to develop options for reducing station costs while preserving key research and exploration capabilities careful integration of russian assets could be a key factor in achieving that goal gibbons reiterated that president clinton is committed to the redesigned space station and to making every effort to preserve the science the technology and the jobs that the space station program represents however he also is committed to a space station that is well managed and one that does not consume the national resources which should be used to invest in the future of this industry and this nation nasa administrator daniel s goldin said the russian participation will be accomplished through the east west space science center at the university of maryland under the leadership of roald sagdeev
sci.space	re space research spin off on apr prb access digex com pat said pat in article shafer apr rigel dfrf nasa gov pat shafer rigel dfrf nasa gov mary shafer writes successful we were mind you the avro arrow and the x were both fly by wire aircraft much earlier but analog pat gee i thought the x was cable controlled didn t one of them pat have a total electrical failure in flight was there machanical pat backup systems all reaction controlled aircraft are fly by wire at least the rcs part is on the x the aerodynamic control surfaces elevator rudder etc were conventionally controlled pushrods and cables but the rcs jets were fly by wire the nasa habit of acquiring second hand military aircraft and using them for testbeds can make things kind of confusing on the other hand all those second hand navy planes give our test pilots a chance to fold the wings something most pilots at edwards air force base can t do pat what do you mean overstress the wings and they fail at teh pat joints navy aircraft have folding or sweeping wings in order to save space on the hangar deck the f wings sweep all the rest fold the wingtips up at a joint air force planes don t have folding wings since the air force has lots of room mary shafer dod kotfr nasa dryden flight research facility edwards ca shafer rigel dfrf nasa gov of course i don t speak for nasa a mig at your six is better than no mig at all unknown us fighter pilot
sci.space	re mars observer update in article pcgaa do access digex com prb access digex com pat writes now isn t that always the kicker it does seem stupid to drop a mission like magellan because there isn t million a year to keep up the mission you d think that ongoing science could justify the money jpl gets accused of spending more then neccessary probably some validity in that but nasa does put money into some things that really are porcine oh well i attended a colloquium at goddard last fall where the head of the operations section of nasa was talking about what future missions were going to be funded i don t remember his name or title off hand and i have discarded the colloquia announcement in any case he was asked about that very matter why can t we spend a few million more to keep instruments that we already have in place going his responce was that there are only so many available to him and the lead time on an instrument like a cobe magellan hubble etc is years minumum if he spent all that could be spent on using current instruments in the current budget enviroment he would have very little to nothing for future projects if he did that sure in the short run the science would be wonderful and he would be popular however starting a few years after he had retired he would become one of the greatest villans ever seen in the space community for not funding the early stages of the next generation of instruments just as he had benefited from his predicessor s funding choices he owed it to whoever his sucessor would eventually be to keep developing new missions even at the expense of cutting off some instruments before the last drop of possible science has been wrung out of them covert c beach dragon access digex com
sci.space	economics if all the ecomomists in the world were laid end to end punchline they would all point in different directions punchline they wouldn t reach a conclusion punchline it would be a good idea just to leave them there tommy mac tom mcwilliams wk as the radius of vision increases tm ibm cl msu edu hm the circumference of mystery grows
sci.space	washington post article on ssf redesign space station redesign leader says cost goal may be impossible today the washington post ran an article with the headline shown above the article starts with a leader of the nasa team in charge of redesigning the planned space station said yesterday the job is tough and may be impossible o connor is quoted saying whether it is possible to cut costs that much and still provide for meaningful research is a real question for me o connor said everything is fair game including dropping or curtailing existing contracts with the aerospace industry chopping management of the space station program at some nasa facilities around the country working closely with the russian space station mir and using unmanned titan rockets to supplement the manned space shuttle fleet o connor says his team has reviewed design options so far and they are sorting the serious candidates into three categories based on cost the post says o connor described the design derived from the current ssf as a high cost option i believe kathy sawyer the post writer got confused here i listened in on part of o connor s briefing to the press on monday and in one part of the briefing o connor talked about how the white house wants three options sorted by cost low medium and high in another part of the briefing he discussed the three teams he has formed to look at three options ssf derivative larc modular buildup with bus msfc and single launch core wingless orbiter jsc later in response to a reporters question i thought i heard o connor say the option based on a ssf redesign was a moderate cost option in between low high cost options not the high cost option as sawyer wrote the article goes on to describe the other two options as one features modules that could gradually be fitted together in orbit similar to the russian mir the other is a core facility that could be deposited in orbit in a single launch like skylab that option would use existing hardware from the space shuttle the fuselage for example in its basic structure the last sentence in the article contradicts the title the first paragraph the sentence reads he o connor said a streamlined version of the planned space station freedom is still possible within the administration s budget guidelines
sci.space	blue ribbon panel members named the following press release was distributed april by nasa headquarters space station redesign advisory members named along with dr charles m vest recently named by vice president albert gore to head the advisory committee on the redesign of the space station nasa has announced the names of representatives from government and industry and academic experts from across the country to participate in an independent review of the redesign options being developed by nasa i am extremely honored to have been selected to lead this important review panel america s future in science and technology and as a world leader in space demands our utmost attention and care said vest we have assembled a diverse panel of experts that i believe will bring the appropriate measures of insight integrity and objectivity to this critical task the advisory committee is charged with independently assessing various redesign options of the space station presented by nasa s redesign team and proposing recommendations to improve efficiency and effectiveness of the space station program space station international partners also are being asked to participate and will be named at a later date the advisory committee will submit its recommendations in june advisory committee members named today include dr charles vest dr bobby alford president mit executive vp dean of medicine baylor college of medicine mr jay chabrow dr paul chu president jmr associates director texas center for superconductivity university of houston dr ed crawley dr john fabian prof of aero astro president ceo mit anser maj gen james fain dr edward fort deputy chief of staff for chancellor requirements headquarters north carolina at t usaf materials command state university dr mary good mr frederick hauck senior vp of technology president international technical allied signal inc underwriters dr lou lanzerotti mr william lilly chair space sciences national academy of public board national research administration council mr duane mcruer dr brad parkinson president systems technology prof of astro aero stanford university dr robert seamans dr lee silver former nasa deputy admin w m keck foundation professor for resource geology california institute of technology dr albert bud wheelon retired ceo hughes aircraft
sci.space	faqs i was wondering if the faq files could be posted quarterly rather than monthly every days i get this bloated feeling bev freed via fidonet node uucp pitt nss freed internet freed nss org
sci.space	re faqs in article bbcb c nss org freed nss org bev freed writes i was wondering if the faq files could be posted quarterly rather than monthly every days i get this bloated feeling or just stick em on sci space news every days software engineering that s like military intelligence isn t it sysmgr cadlab eng umd edu
sci.space	re nuclear waste in article rins ryukoku ac jp will rins ryukoku ac jp william reiken writes ok so how about the creation of oil producing bacteria i figure that if you can make them to eat it up then you can make them to shit it any comments they exist even photosynthetic varieties not economical at this time though paul f dietz dietz cs rochester edu
sci.space	re the call to space was re clueless szaboisms in article pfiuh e access digex com prb access digex com pat writes if the japanese are really going for nukes why not go with better technology then we have as opposed to bwr pwrs have they really considered some of the rd generation inherently safe designs the japanese are still on the learning curve as far as nuclear power goes this means that unlike the germans who do great things all by themselves the japanese tie up with foreign companies the major one is mitsubishi who else who have a sharing agreement with ge i think no chance of a new design sodium has lots of chemical problems but it really solves design difficulties or the inherently safe types sodium has lots of chemical problems like it eats stainless steel very slowly but it gets there in the end not what i call a desired property as for design difficulties what does sodium do there it is a bitch and it is only its chemical properties flwed though they are that means it gets used two loops that s not a design problem isolation from air and water that doesn t cause design problems in comparison bwr s a dream rides pwr s work real good but they need lots of steel and they are highly complex systems simplicity is a virtue don t get none of that in a liquid sodium breeder more steel more complexity joseph askew joseph askew gauche and proud in the autumn stillness see the pleiades jaskew spam maths adelaide edu remote in thorny deserts fell the grief disclaimer sue see if i care north of our tents the sky must end somwhere actually i rather like brenda beyond the pale the river murmurs on
sci.space	re the call to space was re clueless szaboisms in article pfj k ab access digex com prb access digex com pat writes in article mar mksol dseg ti com mccall mksol dseg ti com fred j mccall writes it isn t feasible for japan to try to stockpile the amount of oil they would need to run their industries if they did no use nuclear power of course given they export of the gnp what do they do well they don t export anywhere near of their gnp mexico s perhaps but not their own they actually export around the mark similar to most developed countries actually australia exports a larger share of gnp as does the united states i think off hand always likely to be out by a factor of or more though this would be immediately obvious if you thought about it anything serious enough to disrupt the sea lanes for oil will also hose their export routes it is their import routes that count they can do without exports but they couldn t live without imports for any longer than six months if that given they import everything oil is just one more critical commodity too true but one that is unstable and hence a source of serious worry joseph askew joseph askew gauche and proud in the autumn stillness see the pleiades jaskew spam maths adelaide edu remote in thorny deserts fell the grief disclaimer sue see if i care north of our tents the sky must end somwhere actually i rather like brenda beyond the pale the river murmurs on
sci.space	re small astronaut was budget astronaut in article pfkf ab access digex com prb access digex com pat writes only one problem with sending a corp of small astronauts they may want to start a galactic empire napoleon complex you know genghis khan was a little guy too i d bet julius caesar never broke i think you would lose your money julius was actually rather tall for a roman he did go on record as favouring small soldiers though thought they were tougher and had more guts he was probably right if you think about it as for napoleon remember that the french avergae was just about feet and that height is relative did he really have a complex obspace we have all seen the burning candle from high school that goes out and relights if there is a large hot body placed in space but in an atmosphere exactly how does it heat the surroundings diffusion only joseph askew joseph askew gauche and proud in the autumn stillness see the pleiades jaskew spam maths adelaide edu remote in thorny deserts fell the grief disclaimer sue see if i care north of our tents the sky must end somwhere actually i rather like brenda beyond the pale the river murmurs on
sci.space	nasa wraps in the april edition of one small step for a space activist allen sherzer tim kyger write another problem is what are called wraps or sometimes the center tax when work for a large program like freedom or shuttle is performed at a nasa center the center skims off a portion which goes into what amounts to a slush fund this money is used to fund work the center manager wants to fund this sum is estimated to be over a third of the funds allocated think about that of the billion cost of freedom fully billion won t be spent on anything having anything to do with space stations now maybe that billion was wisely spent and maybe it wasn t but the work done with it should stand on its own merits not distorting the cost of other projects congress has no idea of the existense of these wraps congress has never heard the term center tax they look at the station they are getting and the price they are paying and note that it doesn t add up they wonder this blissfully unaware that a third of the money is going for something else my dear friends your mixing fact and fiction here a couple of weeks ago when i first read this in your posting i talked with one of the cost experts here in space station at headquarters if you wondering why i didn t post a response immediately i do have a real job i m supposed to be doing here at headquarters digging up old khz data looking into sherzer kyger claims rates pretty low on the totem pole of priority also i spent last weekend in kansas city at the national science teachers association conference extolling the virtues of ssf to science teachers first off yes the concept of center tax or wrap does exist if i recall the numbers correctly the total tax for the ssf program for this fiscal year is around million this was computed by adding up the wp wp and wp center taxes with the ssf budget for this fiscal year at billion my calculater says the tax percentage is over the life of the ssf program using your figure of billion for the cost of ssf a tax at a rate comes to million this is alot less than billion but i will concede it s still an appreciable amount of pocket change i should note that your estimate of the tax rate at could be close to the actual rate the tax is only charged on funds that are spent at the center kind of like mcdonalds at some states where you do have to pay sales tax if you eat the food at the restaurant but you don t if you get it take out for example at wp the vast bulk of the funds we receive go to the rocketdyne contract and are not subject to the center tax i don t have the numbers in front of me but i d guess at least of the wp funds go to rocketdyne so you could be right about a tax rate of but it s only applied to funds spent at the center and not to the prime contracts this leads to the obvious question what is the government doing with ssf funds that don t go to the prime contractors i e ok wp gets a slice of the billion pie a big portion of this slice goes to rocketdyne what happens to the balance of the funds which aren t eaten up by the center tax at wp we call these funds we spend in house supporting development funds as they are supporting the development work done by rocketdyne we have used these funds to setup our own testbed to checkout the electrical power system architecture our testbed has a real life solar array field left over from solar cell research research a few years back with lead acid car batteries to simulate the nickel hydrogen batteries on ssf dc switchgear dc dc converter units and simulated loads data from the testbed was used in a recent change evaluation involving concerns about the stability of the power system we have also used the supporting development money to purchase nickel hydrogen batteries which are on life testing at both lewis and the crane naval facility in indiana as a side point of the battery cells on test recently hit the four year life test milestone cells have completed to cycles the on orbit batteries go through cycles per year as a final example my home division at lewis used the supporting development funds to purchase personal computers and work stations for performing system analyses like modeling of the performance of the electrical power system availability calculations using a monte carlo simulation setting up a database with information on weight of the power system elements finally the money raised by the tax does not all go into a slush fund at lewis the director does control a small discretionary fund each year any individual at lewis can submit a proposal to the director to get money from this fund to look at pretty much anything within the lewis charter most of the tax however goes to fund the general services at the center like the library the central computer services division the contractor who removes the snow etc thus it is rather difficult to determine what percentage of the ssf budget doesn t go for ssf activities to get an accurate figure you would have to take the annual expenditure for the library for example and then divide by the amount of the library funds used to support ssf which would be hard to compute by itself how would you figure out what percentage of the bill for aviation week for year is billable to ssf would you base it on the person hours ssf employees spend reading av week versus the rest of the center personnel you would then have to compare this estimate of the ssf portion of the library expense with the portion of the tax that goes to support the library who knows maybe ssf overpays on the tax to run the library but we underpay for snow removal talk about a burecratic nightmare my last point is that i can t believe your claim that congress has never heard of the term center tax unfortunately all of the nasa testimony before congress isn t on a computer so i can t do a simple word search someplace to prove you wrong but surely in some gao audit somewhere these nasa cost methods were documented for congress
sci.space	dc x rollout report mcdonnell douglas rolls out dc x huntington beach calif on a picture perfect southern california day mcdonnell douglas rolled out its dc x rocket ship last saturday the company hopes this single stage rocket technology demonstrator will be the first step towards a single stage to orbit ssto rocket ship the white conical vehicle was scheduled to go to the white sands missile range in new mexico this week flight tests will start in mid june although there wasn t a cloud in the noonday sky the forecast for ssto research remains cloudy the sdi organization which paid million for the dc x can t itself afford to fund full development of a follow on vehicle to get the necessary hundreds of millions required for a sub orbital dc xa sdio is passing a tin cup among its sister government agencies sdio originally funded ssto research as a way to cut the costs for orbital deployments of space based sensors and weapns however recent changes in sdi s political marching orders and budget cuts have made ssto less of a priority today the agency is more interested in using dc x as a step towards a low cost reusable sounding rocket sdio has already done briefings to other government agencies said col simon pete worden sdio s deputy for technology but worden declined to say how much the agencies would have to pony up for the program i didn t make colonel by telling my contractors how much money i have available to spend he quipped at a press conference at mcdonnell douglas astronautics headquarters while sdio has lowered its sights on the program s orbital objective agency officials hail the dc x as an example of the better faster cheaper approach to hardware development the agency believes this philosophy can produce breakthroughs that leapfrog ahead of evolutionary technology developments worden said the dc x illustrates how a build a little test a little approach can produce results on time and within budget he said the program which went from concept to hardware in around months showed how today s engineers could move beyond the miracles of our parents time the key is management worden said sdio had a very light hand on this project we had only one overworked major jess sponable although the next phase may involve more agencies worden said lean management and a sense of government industry partnership will be crucial it s essential we do not end up with a large management structure where the price goes up exponentially sdio s approach also won praise from two california members of the house science space and technology committee this is the direction we re going to have to go said rep george brown the committee s democratic chairman programs that stretch aout to years aren t sustainable nasa hasn t learned it yet sdio has rep dana rohrbacher brown s republican colleague went further joking that a shrimp is a fish designed by a nasa design team rohrbacher doubted that the program ever would have been completed if it were left to the civil space agency rohrbacher whose orange county district includes mcdonnell douglas also criticized nasa air force work on conventional multi staged rockets as placing new casings around old missile technology let s not build fancy ammunition with capsules on top let s build a spaceship although rohrbacher praised sdio s sponsorship he said the private sector needs to take the lead in developing ssto technology mcdonnell douglas which faces very uncertain prospects with its c transport and space station freedom programs were more cautious about a large private secotro commitment on very large ventures companies put in seed money said charles ordahl mcdonnell douglas senior vice president for space systems you need strong government investments while the government and industry continue to differ on funding for the dc xa they agree on continuing an incremental approach to development citing corporate history they liken the process to douglas aircraft s dc aircraft just as two earlier aircraft paved the way for the dc transport a gradual evolution in single stage rocketry could eventually lead to an orbital delta clipper dc flight tests this summer at white sands will expand the envelope of performance with successive tests increasing speed and altitude the first tests will reach feet and demonstrate hovering verticle take off and landing the second series will send the unmanned dc x up to feet the third and final series will take the craft up to feet maneuvers will become more complex on third phase the final tests will include a pitch over manever that rotates the vehicle back into a bottom down configuration for a soft four legged landing the flight test series will be supervised by charles pete conrad who performed similar maneuvers on the apollo moon landing now a mcdonnell douglas vice president conrad paised the vehicles aircraft like approach to operations features include automated check out and access panels for easy maintainance if the program moves to the next stage engine technology will become a key consideration this engine would have more thrust than the pratt whitney rl a engines used on the dc x each motor uses liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen propellants to generate up to pounds of thrust based on the engine used in centaur upper stages the a model has a thrust champer designed for sea level operation and three to on throttling capability it also is designed for repeat firings and rapid turnaround worden said future single stage rockets could employ tri propellant engine technology developed in the former soviet union the resulting engines could burn a dense hydrocarbon fuel at takeoff and then switch to liquid hydrogen at higher altitudes the mechanism for the teaming may already be in place pratt has a technology agreement with npo energomash the design bureau responsible for the tri propellant and energia cryogenic engines
sci.space	re space research spin off in article psgs so access digex net prb access digex com pat writes the nasa habit of acquiring second hand military aircraft and using them for testbeds can make things kind of confusing on the other hand all those second hand navy planes give our test pilots a chance to fold the wings something most pilots at edwards air force base can t do what do you mean overstress the wings and they fail at teh joints you ll have to enlighten us in the hinterlands no they fold on the dotted line look at pictures of carriers with loads of a c on the deck wings all neatly folded dillon pyron the opinions expressed are those of the ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated when i m here when i m home god gave us weather so we wouldn t complain pyron skndiv dseg ti com about other things padi dm
sci.space	re nuclear waste in psg ree access digex net prb access digex com pat writes on the issue of burning nuclear wastes using particle beams how is it ever going to be an off the shelf technology if someone doesn t do it maybe we should do this as part of the ssf design goals gee fred after your bitter defense of khz power as a basic technology for ssf id think you would support a minor research program like this i sometimes wonder if your newsfeed gives you different articles than everyone else pat just a few corrections i never defended khz power other than as something reasonable to go look at i have also never opposed a research project into feasibility of the spalling reactor approach to cleaning nuclear waste i simply doubt it could be made to work in the real world tm which ought to become clear fairly quickly during a research program into feasibility sort of like what happened to khz power it proved to have a down side that was too expensive to overcome i figure things wrong in a single sentence is a high enough fault density for even you pat insisting on perfect safety is for people who don t have the balls to live in the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com i don t speak for others and they don t speak for me
sci.space	re pushing the envelope flight tests are generally carefully coreographed and just what is going to be pushed and how far is precisely planned despite occasional deviations from plans such as the early first flight of the f during its high speed taxi tests and chuck yeager earlier flights with the x c o egalon larc nasa gov
sci.space	commercial point of view original to szabo techbook com g day szabo techbook com mar szabo techbook com wrote to all sc szabo techbook com nick szabo via kralizec sc here are some longer term markets to consider here are some more terrestrial illumination from orbiting mirrors world enviroment and disaster monitering system the japanese have already developed a plan for this called wedos although this may be more of a public good space tourism energy relay satellites ta ralph golded origin vulcan s world sydney australia
sci.space	re blow up space station easy way to do it in article apr aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes this might a real wierd idea or maybe not why musta space station be so difficult why must we have girders why be confined to earth based ideas lets think new ideas after all space is not earth why be limited by earth based ideas choose any or all of the following as an answer to the above politics traditions congress beauracrats
sci.space	white house outlines options for station russian cooperation blind carbon copy to spacenews austen rand org cti austen rand org subject white house outlines options for station russian cooperation date tue apr pdt from richard buenneke buenneke austen rand org gibbons outlines space station redesign guidance nasa headquarters washington d c april release dr john h gibbons director office of science and technology policy outlined to the members designate of the advisory committee on the redesign of the space station on april three budget options as guidance to the committee in their deliberations on the redesign of the space station a low option of billion a mid range option of billion and a high option of billion will be considered by the committee each option would cover the total expenditures for space station from fiscal year through and would include funds for development operations utilization shuttle integration facilities research operations support transition cost and also must include adequate program reserves to insure program implementation within the available funds over the next years billion is reserved within the nasa budget for the president s new technology investment as a result station options above billion must be accompanied by offsetting reductions in the rest of the nasa budget for example a space station option of billion would require billion in offsets from the nasa budget over the next years gibbons presented the information at an organizational session of the advisory committee generally the members designate focused upon administrative topics and used the session to get acquainted they also received a legal and ethics briefing and an orientation on the process the station redesign team is following to develop options for the advisory committee to consider gibbons also announced that the united states and its international partners the europeans japanese and canadians have decided after consultation to give full consideration to use of russian assets in the course of the space station redesign process to that end the russians will be asked to participate in the redesign effort on an as needed consulting basis so that the redesign team can make use of their expertise in assessing the capabilities of mir and the possible use of mir and other russian capabilities and systems the u s and international partners hope to benefit from the expertise of the russian participants in assessing russian systems and technology the overall goal of the redesign effort is to develop options for reducing station costs while preserving key research and exploration capabilitiaes careful integration of russian assets could be a key factor in achieving that goal gibbons reiterated that president clinton is committed to the redesigned space station and to making every effort to preserve the science the technology and the jobs that the space station program represents however he also is committed to a space station that is well managed and one that does not consume the national resources which should be used to invest in the future of this industry and this nation nasa administrator daniel s goldin said the russian participation will be accomplished through the east west space science center at the university of maryland under the leadership of roald sagdeev end of blind carbon copy
sci.space	re sr in propoganda films in article apr sequent com bigfoot sequent com gregory smith writes mccall mksol dseg ti com fred j mccall writes in phv jbk access digex net prb access digex com pat writes the sr stopped being a real secret by the mid s i had a friend in high school who had a poster with it s picture it was known well before that i built a model of it sometime in the mid s billed as yf a sr the model was based on yf a specs and had a big radar in the nose and aams in closed bays on the underside of the fuselage the description even then read speeds in excess of mach at altitudes exceeding feet l b j publically announced the existance of the blackbird program in he s also the one who dubbed it the sr it was the rs until lbj mippselled sic it fwiw doug page the opinions are mine maybe and don t necessarily represent those of my employer
sci.space	re questions about titan iv and ariane in article c orq g news cso uiuc edu gwg uxa cso uiuc edu garret w gengler writes in sci space you write try the environet database at gsfc ftp to envnet gsfc nasa gov or or call they have data on sts ariane titan atlas delta and scout launch environments howdy thanks for the info i tried anonymous ftp there but it didn t work i also tried telnetting to the same address but it asked for a login and password although there was a note saying that the new username for environet was envnet anyways do you have any idea what else i should try thanks garret the home office number for environet is note area code change a friend of mine used to use it to get ldef data but he had to apply for a login name and password i have a call in for more info which i hope to get in the morning david w gsfc
sci.space	re quaint us archaisms in article c wc b m cs cmu edu nickh cs cmu edu nick haines writes in article apr ke zv uucp gary ke zv uucp gary coffman writes stuff deleted of course the units of force have the same names as those of weight but in order to use them you need to keep useful constants like the omnipresent ft sec around maybe you d like to go over again how this system is so natural and so easy to use gary while you re at it you can figure out for us the weight of barrels and a quart of foo density lb oz per cubic foot on the moon gravity ft in sec let s face it even the imperial system uses a basically metric way of relating quantities i e that would be written as ft sec the only thing you re hanging on to is the right to express the same quantity as inches feet yards or chains what everyone else is saying is why do you want to do that any apparent remaining complexity in the si system is due to the multiplicity of the aforesaid prefixes in fact what s going on and the fundamental difference between si and imperial is that you have exactly one unit of each type and all values of that type are expressed as some multiple of the unit you mean like seconds minutes hours days months years remember the fahrenheit temperature scale is also a centigrade scale some revisionists tell the history something like this the coldest point in a particular russian winter was marked on the thermometer as was the body temperature of a volunteer turns out he was sick but you can t win em all then the space in between the marks on the thermometer was then divided into hundredths fwiw doug page the opinions are mine maybe and do not necessarily represent those of my employer or any other sane person fot that matter
sci.space	fred and tom ad naseum nick sez i m not very impressed by the old so called prospecting work from lpi it has almost all been geared towards industrially silly processes on the moon as an excuse to put astronauts there fred replies translation it doesn t support the nick szabo vision of the future to which you must subscribe tom sez fred we re all supporting what each of us thinks should be done to some degree if you have a problem with what nick thinks should be done address it instead of just complaining about his doing so fred again you really don t get what the complaints are about do you not incredibly clear explanation of complaints something between feelings regarding nick s method and judgments about his meaning t maybe i d get it if you said what the complaints are about rather than doing the same things that you mean to complain about when you trash people how am i supposed to read that as trashing people is bad f gee funny that you get it now then deliberate obtuseness perhaps fred s issue nick s alleged trashing of others i only got it when you stopped trashing and made your point patently instead of allegorically that was my point all along fred not only do you do the same thing on the net honestly reporting your ideas on matters of policy and projects in space but your response was just baiting not even part of a debate i have yet to see nick enter into anything remotely resembling a debate i see him flame anyone or anything who disagrees with the one true szabo plan i see him attacking people calling them lazy bastard because they had the temerity to disagree with the almight nick i see him questioning peoples ethics again because they had the temerity to disagree with lord god szabo but debate bwaaaaahhhaaaa i m glad you can laugh since your ratio of debate insult is about the same not even close tommy and generally only when i m dealing with someone like nick i see we are dealing with a problem in a conflict of interpretations not least of which is your belief that only you can adequately judge what is and is not debate suffice to say that i disagree with you on that last point why don t you take a poll fred if you want some psuedo objective point of view and as usual you defend your insults with he started it yeah i took some of his research and called it my own but he started it so what if i stole his car he stole my lawnmower first besides that i think it s still open to interpretation whether nick actually did start it so your defense besides being lame and contradicting the first part of the sentence in which it occurs may not even apply anyway your defense reminds me of the guy that broke the borrowed tool i never borrowed it i already gave it back and it was broken when you gave it to me make up yer mind fred i m not convinced that people are necessary in all parts of every space based process and your response doesn t tell me a thing about the reasons why you think they should be except to impune the motives of the person with a divergent opinion who said i think they should be tommy show me a note where i said that and i ll eat this terminal see below fred fred i cocluded that you did since you took issue with it the fact that my conclusion was incorrect i e that you were taking issue with something different is evidence that your communication style is confusing or evidence that your reading and comprehension style are inadequate first i try to address what i think you meant for which i am rewarded with a denial of sorts and a smart remark then i point out that i am not clear what you did mean rather than risking your childish ire wrongly interpreting you a second time and i m stupid for it i just can t win can i fred you ve got a great point here somewhere it s just that between stupid people that you must insult and your jealous guarding of your valuable opinions you never actually get around to making it please quote the it i took issue with i believe you will see if you look that what i was and am taking issue with is mr szabo s idea that the manned program should be scrapped until such time as his toaster based infrastructure is finished all hail the szabo plan fred issue nick s alleged meaning too bad the plan only exists in your mind instead of nick s or you would have a really good point instead you have provided a good reason to ignore your insults since they are based on incorrect interpretations that you have made about others forgive me for giving your insults more meaning than they ever should have had my reading of what nick actually said is that people aren t required in all parts of all space processes so your taking issue with his opinions regarding people in the space program i read as people are required in all parts of all space processes so help me out here fred since i m so patently stupid did you read nick wrong or are you going to eat your terminal now if the latter i sure hope it s one of those cheeto and string models that all the computer mags have been raving about the point is i am not stupid because of your incorrect assumption i d only be stupid if i insulted you for having made it but alas that s your job fred and finally your style is confusing since you tried to make two points simultaneously with an allegory insult sadly one point addressed a plan that only existed in your mind and the other took issue with behaviors that you do as much as anyone more deliberate lack of understanding tommy no no i finally got it you don t like the plan that nick s posts made you imagine and you don t like nick s obnoxious behavior even though it s no worse than your own thanks for taking the time with someone as dense as myself if you have a problem with nick s delivery address that the way you bait you re perpetuating the lack of discourse that you complain of no tommy the bait is that which elicits the response nick baits i just flame him for being an obnoxious fool i don t really care who started it i read this list to get information and other s views on the issues to which it was dedicated not to be your mom he started it no he did or to hear about why nick is a very bad guy if you think flaming is bad stop flaming or at least get to the point in the first post instead of explaining yourself all the time that s nice tommy when you pay me to post to the net you can complain about not getting your money s worth perhaps if you weren t deliberately too thick to get the point the first time i wouldn t have to waste time explaining myself all the time of course socrates how could it be otherwise i think it s neat how all this criticism from you started after your fatherly admonitions to me about how such things should be handled outside usenet were somewhat rebuffed being a little hypocritical tommy to go with the immaturity or is this just the pique of a net ghod wannabe who got turned down by someone he thought was new and hence could be instructed tommy i saw you come on the net who cares who came on the net first if you do consider that you saw me come on after a brief haitus before which i was on for about years if you had seen me on the net first you d remember when nick and i went down exactly the same road regarding rude unneccesary behavior it s just amazing to me that you continue to take issue with behavior that s no worse than your own let s see here my complaints about your obnoxious behavior are hypocritical while your flames against people you decide are flamers isn t and my complaints about your name calling are immature while your name calling isn t yeah right maybe if you called me some more names i might see it better fred net ghod wannabe naturally fred you ve correctly interpreted my motivations when yours are impossible to judge from your actions as your insulting of people that try proves i didn t really care about people that fill the net with personal garbage what i really wanted was to impress everyone i only put my complaints with your behavior on private mail not because it belongs there but because i thought you were such a jerk that you d bring it back to the net playing right into my hands alas i had no idea what an intellectual master you were turning tables and bringing the history of these posts to the net for the noble and valuable purpose of embarassing me whether i should feel stupid because i tried to make suggestions to such a superior intellect or becuase i tried to communicate like an adult with a self righteous ass still isn t clear well fred you exposed me now i ll never be able to get a nother job with nasa since they all know that i m stupider than fred mccall well i just hope you re happy please leave me alone now i just don t have the heart to attempt keeping up with one so far above me maybe nick or pat can approach your high standards but i m dropping it now tommy mac tom mcwilliams wk as the radius of vision increases tm ibm cl msu edu hm the circumference of mystery grows
sci.space	re dc x rollout report in article c v ftn cs cmu edu buenneke monty rand org richard buenneke writes mcdonnell douglas rolls out dc x ssto research remains cloudy the sdi organization which paid million for the dc x can t itself afford to fund full development of a follow on vehicle to get the necessary hundreds of millions required for this is a little peculiar way of putting it sdio s budget this year was what billion they could fund all of the dc development out of one years budget of course they do have other irons in the fire and launcher development is not their primary purpose but the dc development could as easily be paid for by diverting that money as by diverting the comparable sts ops budget oh and before the flames start i applaud the sdio for funding dc x devlopment and i hope it works and no launcher development is not nasas primary goal either imho they are supposed to provide the enabling technology research for others to do launcher development and secondarily operate such launchers as they require but that s just me steinn sigurdsson i saw two shooting stars last night lick observatory i wished on them but they were only satellites steinly lick ucsc edu is it wrong to wish on space hardware standard disclaimer i wish i wish i wish you d care b b
sci.space	re vulcan no not spock or haphaestus another legend with the name vulcan was the planet much like earth in the same orbit there was a science fiction movie sometime ago i do not remember its name about a planet in the same orbit of earth but hidden behind the sun so it could never be visible from earth turns out that that planet was the exact mirror image of earth and all its inhabitants looked like the earthings with the difference that their organs was in the opposite side like the heart was in the right side instead in the left and they would shake hands with the left hand and so on c o egalon larc nasa gov c o egalon larc nasa gov claudio oliveira egalon
sci.space	re clementine name in article f permanet org mark prado p f n z permanet org mark prado writes please go just one step further how has the word clementine been associated with mining could be the folk song clementine if memory serves part of it goes in a cavern by a canyon excavating for a mine dwelt a miner forty niner and his daughter clementine anyone who watched huckleberry hound can sing you the chorus is there a story real person behind the song dwight tuinstra best tuinstra sandman ece clarkson edu tolerable tuinstrd craft camp clarkson edu homo sapiens planetary cancer news at six
sci.space	some recent observations by hubble here are some recent observations taken by the hubble space telescope o the faint object spectrograph fos was used to make ultraviolet observations of both the planet pluto and its moon charon the peakups were successful the observations were executed as scheduled and no problems were reported o observations were made using the high speed photometer of the planet uranus during an occultation by a faint star in capricornus these observations will help in our understanding of the planet s atmospheric radiative and dynamical processes this event occurred close to the last quarter moon and special arrangements had to be made to modify the lunar limit tests to allow these observations the observations are currently being reviewed and all the observations looked okay ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab m s telos being cynical never helps pasadena ca to correct the situation and causes more aggravation instead
sci.space	re solar sail data hey what happened to the solar sail race that was supposed to be for columbus in article news duc auburn edu snydefj eng auburn edu frank j snyder writes i am looking for any information concerning projects involving solar sails i understand that the jpl did an extensive study on the subject back in the late s but i am having trouble gathering such information are there any groups out there currently involved in such a project
sci.space	ozone gifs available ozone gif images april two gif images of the ozone maps over the northern and southern hemispheres are now available at the jpl info public access site these maps were produced by the microwave limb sounder aboard the upper atmosphere research satellite uars and are courtesy of the public information office at jpl note that the images are in gif a format so make sure your display software supports this format as opposed to the older gif a format the caption files accompanying the images are appended at the end of this message as well as being embedded in the images the images are available by dialup modem at up to bps parameters n or by using anonymous ftp to ftp pubinfo jpl nasa gov user anonymous cd news will be moved to the images directory in days files ozone a gif northern hemisphere ozone b gif southern hemisphere also photographic prints of these images can be ordered from newell color lab listed below refer to the p number associated with the images when ordering newell color lab n westmoreland avenue los angeles ca telephone fax ozone a gif public information office jet propulsion laboratory california institute of technology national aeronautics and space administration pasadena calif telephone photo p april this graphic depicts chlorine monoxide and ozone over earth s northern hemisphere in february and these maps were produced by the microwave limb sounder aboard the upper atmosphere research satellite the chlorine monoxide clo maps left are for a layer about kilometers feet above the earth s surface on february above and below the ozone maps show the total amount above an altitude of about kilometers feet averaged over the period from february to march for the two years the microwave limb sounder developed and operated by a team at nasa s jet propulsion laboratory is one of several instruments on the goddard space flight center s upper atmosphere research satellite launched in september ozone b gif public information office jet propulsion laboratory california institute of technology national aeronautics and space administration pasadena calif telephone photo caption p april this graphic depicts chlorine monoxide clo and the antarctic ozone hole these maps produced by the microwave limb sounder aboard the upper atmosphere research satellite show the amount of chlorine monoxide left and ozone right in the stratosphere at altitudes above kilometers feet very small abundances of ozone appear where there are large abundances of chlorine monoxide the dominant form of chlorine that destroys ozone data from september top are compared with those from september bottom the microwave limb sounder developed and operated by a team at nasa s jet propulsion laboratory is one of several instruments on goddard space flight center s upper atmosphere research satellite launched september ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab m s telos being cynical never helps pasadena ca to correct the situation and causes more aggravation instead
sci.space	sixty two thousand was re how many read sci space in article apr sol uvic ca rborden ugly uvic ca ross borden writes in article f permanet org mark prado p f n z permanet org mark prado writes one could go on and on and on here but i wonder how many people read sci space and of what power influence are these individuals quick everyone who sees this post a reply that says hey i read sci space then we can count them and find out how many there are this will also help answer that nagging question just what is the maximum bandwidth of the internet anyways a practical suggestion to be sure but one could also peek into news lists where brian reid has posted usenet readership report for mar another posting called usenet readership summary report for mar gives the methodology and caveats of reid s survey these postings failed to appear for a while i wonder why but they are now back reid alas gives us no measure of the power influence of readers sorry mark i suspect mark dangling out there on fidonet may not get news lists so i ve mailed him copies of these reports the bottom line estimated total number of people who read the group worldwide actual number of readers in sampled population propagation how many sites receive this group at all recent traffic messages per month recent traffic kilobytes per month crossposting percentage cost ratio us month rdr share of newsrders who read this group v v v v v v v v sci space the first figure indicates that sci space ranks th among most read newsgroups i ve been keeping track sporadically to watch the growth of traffic and readership you might be entertained to see this oct sci space mar sci space jul sci space may sci space some kind of glitch in estimating number of readers happens here sep sci space nov sci space revision in ranking groups happens here mar sci space possibly old usenet hands could give me some more background on how to interpret these figures glitches or the history of reid s reporting effort take it to e mail it doesn t belong in sci space bill higgins beam jockey in a churchyard in the valley fermi national accelerator laboratory where the myrtle doth entwine bitnet higgins fnal bitnet there grow roses and other posies internet higgins fnal fnal gov fertilized by clementine span hepnet higgins
sci.space	re new dc x gif in article cohen q mdc com andy cohen cohen ssdgwy mdc com writes i just uploaded dcxart gif to bongo cc utexas edu after chris johnson moves it it ll probably be in pub delta clipper thanks again andy the image is in pub delta clipper now the name has been changed to dcx artists concept gif in the spirit of verboseness chris chris w johnson internet chrisj emx cc utexas edu uucp husc uunet cs utexas edu ut emx chrisj compuserve internet chrisj emx cc utexas edu applelink chrisj emx cc utexas edu internet wishing the delta clipper team success in the upcoming dc x flight tests
sci.space	re how many read sci space in article apr mksol dseg ti com pyron skndiv dseg ti com dillon pyron writes there are actually only two of us i do henry fred tommy and mary oh yeah this isn t my real name i m a bald headed space baby damn so it was you who was drinking beer with robert mcelwane in the parking lot of the k mart unlimited insemination of this message rigidly refused software engineering that s like military intelligence isn t it sysmgr cadlab eng umd edu
sci.space	re doppelganger was re vulcan no not spock or haphaestus in article apr fnalf fnal gov higgins fnalf fnal gov bill higgins beam jockey writes this was known as journey to the far side of the sun in the united states and as doppelganger in the u k later they went on to do more live action sf series ufo and space the astronomy was lousy but the lifting body spacecraft vtol airliners and mighty portugese launch complex were wonderful to look at they recycled a lot of models and theme music for ufo some of the concepts even showed up in space software engineering that s like military intelligence isn t it sysmgr cadlab eng umd edu
sci.space	shuttle launch question there has been something bothering me while watching nasa select for a while well i should nt say bothering maybe wondering would be better when they are going to launch they say sorry but i forget exactly who is saying what otc to plt i think clear caution warning memory verify no unexpected errors i am wondering what an expected error might be sorry if this is a really dumb question but inquiring minds just gotta know yeah yeah i know its those dumb cosmospheres again randy padgett supervisor bitnet etrat ttacs academic computing facilities internet etrat ttacs ttu edu texas tech university thenet ttacs etrat lubbock tx fax
sci.space	re how to get there was re comet in temporary orbit around jupiter in article apr stortek com pg sanitas stortek com paul gilmartin writes bill higgins beam jockey higgins fnalf fnal gov wrote while you re at it comet experts explain how a comet gets into jovian orbit to begin with there are non gravitational forces from heating and outgassing when a comet gets into the inner solar system don t forget the galilean satellites of jupiter my poor old physics intuition will be very surprised if these tiny masses sitting very close to jupiter play any role whatsoever in the problem or to put it more technically the extra volume they add to the phase space of possible capture trajectories is negligible jupiter is e kg while the galilean satellites are around e also as i said the few references that i ve looked at do not mention outgassing or breakup as important processes the important thing is a jupiter sun comet reverse slingshot that leads to a weakly jupiter bound orbit for the comet at least a temporary one bill higgins late at night she still doth haunt me fermilab dressed in garments soaked in brine bitnet higgins fnal bitnet though in life i used to hug her internet higgins fnal fnal gov now she s dead i draw the line span hepnet higgins after the tragedy clementine
sci.space	a wrench in the works hi all i really thought that by now i would have seen something about this but i haven t so here goes last night on the evening news the anchorperson said something to the effect that one of the ssrbs that was recovered after the recent space shuttle launch was found to have a wrench of some sort rattling around apparently inside the case there was no elaboration as to where specfically the item was found of what type of wrench it was but the anchorperson did say something about a nasa official commenting that there would be an inquiry into how the thing got in the ssrb has anybody else on the net whose info sources may be better than mine heard anything about this it seems rather weird mitch jmcocker eos ncsu edu
sci.space	re some recent observations by hubble in article apr kelvin jpl nasa gov baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov ron baalke writes here are some recent observations taken by the hubble space telescope o observations were made using the high speed photometer of the planet uranus during an occultation by a faint star in capricornus wow i knew uranus is a long way off but i didn t think it was that far away dick pierce loudspeaker and software consulting sartelle street pepperell ma voice and fax
sci.space	galileo update forwarded from neal ausman galileo mission director galileo mission director status report post launch april spacecraft on april real time commands were sent as planned to reacquire celestial reference after completion of the low gain antenna lga swing dual drive actuator dda hammer activities on april the ej earth jupiter sequence memory load was uplinked to the spacecraft without incident this sequence covers spacecraft activity from april to june and includes a window for the radio relay antenna rra slew test on april the command loss timer was set to days as a part of this sequence memory load on april and a no op command was sent to reset the command loss timer to hours its planned value during this mission phase on april cruise science memory readouts mros were performed for the extreme ultraviolet spectrometer euv dust detector dds and magnetometer mag instruments preliminary analysis indicates the data was received properly on april an ultra stable oscillator uso test was performed to verify the health status of the uso and to collect gravitational red shift experiment data long term trend analysis is continuing on april a bps modulation index test was performed to determine the optimal signal to noise ratio snr when transmitting at bps preliminary analysis of the data suggests that the present pre launch selected modulation index is near the optimal level on april cruise science memory readouts mros were performed for the extreme ultraviolet spectrometer euv and magnetometer mag instrument preliminary analysis indicates the data was received properly on april a periodic rpm retro propulsion module newton thruster flushing maintenance activity was performed all thrusters were flushed during the activity thruster performance throughout the activity was nominal the ac dc bus imbalance measurements have not exhibited significant changes greater than dn throughout this period the ac measurement reads dn volts the dc measurement reads dn volts these measurements are consistent with the model developed by the ac dc special anomaly team the spacecraft status as of april is as follows a system power margin watts b spin configuration dual spin c spin rate sensor rpm star scanner d spacecraft attitude is approximately degrees off sun lagging and degrees off earth leading e downlink telemetry rate antenna bps coded lga f general thermal control all temperatures within acceptable range g rpm tank pressures all within acceptable range h orbiter science instruments powered on are the pws euv uvs epd mag hic and dds i probe rrh powered off temperatures within acceptable range j cmd loss timer setting hours time to initiation hours gds ground data systems galileo participated in a second dsn deep space network acceptance test for the dsn telemetry phase upgrade on april using cta compatibility test area the purpose of this test was to verify the flow of galileo telemetry data through the new telemetry group controller tgc and the telemetry channel assembly tca the tgc tca is the replacement for the current telemetry processing assembly tpa seven different telemetry rates were run for this test all ran well on both the mts mccc telemetry subsystem and the ammos mgds v gif with the exception of bps the bps rate had some trouble staying in lock it appears the tgc tca was not metering the data correctly further comparisons between the mgds and mts data from this test are being conducted mvt mission verification test of the tgc tca system is expected to begin may trajectory as of noon thursday april the galileo spacecraft trajectory status was as follows distance from earth km au distance from sun km au heliocentric speed km per hour distance from jupiter km round trip light time minutes seconds special topic as of april a total of real time commands have been transmitted to galileo since launch of these were initiated in the sequence design process and initiated in the real time command process in the past week real time commands were transmitted were initiated in the sequence design process and one initiated in the real time command process major command activities included commands to reacquire celestial reference uplink the ej sequence memory load and reset the command loss timer ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab m s telos being cynical never helps pasadena ca to correct the situation and causes more aggravation instead
sci.space	successful balloon flight measures ozone layer forwarded from public information office jet propulsion laboratory california institute of technology national aeronautics and space administration pasadena calif contact mary a hardin for immediate release april scientists at nasa s jet propulsion laboratory report the successful flight of a balloon carrying instruments designed to measure and study chemicals in the earth s ozone layer the april flight from california s barstow daggett airport reached an altitude of kilometers feet and took measurements as part of a program established to correlate data with the upper atmosphere research satellite uars the data from the balloon flight will also be compared to readings from the atmospheric trace molecular spectroscopy atmos experiment which is currently flying onboard the shuttle discovery we launch these balloons several times a year as part of an ongoing ozone research program in fact jpl is actively involved in the study of ozone and the atmosphere in three important ways said dr jim margitan principal investigator on the balloon research campaign there are two jpl instruments on the uars satellite he continued the atmos experiment is conducted by jpl scientists and the jpl balloon research provides collaborative ground truth for those activities as well as data that is useful in its own right the measurements taken by the balloon payload will add more pieces to the complex puzzle of the atmosphere specifically the mid latitude stratosphere during winter and spring understanding the chemistry occurring in this region helps scientists construct more accurate computer models which are instrumental in predicting future ozone conditions the scientific balloon payload consisted of three jpl instruments an ultraviolet ozone photometer which measures ozone as the balloon ascends and descends through the atmosphere a submillimeterwave limb sounder which looks at microwave radiation emitted by molecules in the atmosphere and a fourier transform infrared interferometer which monitors how the atmosphere absorbs sunlight launch occurred at about noontime and following a three hour ascent the balloon floated eastward at approximately kilometers per hour knots data was radioed to ground stations and recorded onboard the flight ended at p m pacific time in eastern new mexico when the payload was commanded to separate from the balloon we needed to fly through sunset to make the infrared measurements margitan explained and we also needed to fly in darkness to watch how quickly some of the molecules disappear it will be several weeks before scientists will have the completed results of their experiments they will then forward their data to the uars central data facility at the goddard space flight center in greenbelt maryland for use by the uars scientists the balloon was launched by the national scientific balloon facility normally based in palestine tex operating under a contract from nasa s wallops flight facility the balloon was launched in california because of the west to east wind direction and the desire to keep the operation in the southwest the balloons are made of micron mil or less than one thousandth of an inch thick plastic and are cubic meters million cubic feet in volume when fully inflated with helium meters feet in diameter the balloons weigh between and kilograms and pounds the scientific payload weighs about kilograms pounds and is meters six feet square by meters feet high the jpl balloon research is sponsored by nasa s upper atmosphere research program and the uars correlative measurements program ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab m s telos being cynical never helps pasadena ca to correct the situation and causes more aggravation instead
sci.space	re russian operation of us space missions i know people hate it when someone says somethings like there was an article about that somewhere a while ago but i m going to say it anyway i read an article on this subject almost certainly in space news and something like six months ago if anyone is really interested in the subject i can probably hunt it down given enough motivation josh hopkins jbh uxa cso uiuc edu tout ce qu un homme est capable d imaginer d autres hommes seront capable de le realiser jules verne
sci.space	re how many read sci space there are actually only two of us i do henry fred tommy and mary oh yeah this isn t my real name i m a bald headed space baby dillon pyron the opinions expressed are those of the ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated when i m here when i m home texans vote no on robin hood we need pyron skndiv dseg ti com solutions not gestures padi dm
sci.space	doppelganger was re vulcan no not spock or haphaestus in article qju binn l rave larc nasa gov c o egalon larc nasa gov claudio oliveira egalon writes there was a science fiction movie sometime ago i do not remember its name about a planet in the same orbit of earth but hidden behind the sun so it could never be visible from earth this was known as journey to the far side of the sun in the united states and as doppelganger in the u k it was produced by the great team of gerry and sylvia anderson whose science was usually a bit better than this it may have been their first production using live actors they were better known for their technophilic puppet shows such as supercar stingray and thunderbirds later they went on to do more live action sf series ufo and space the astronomy was lousy but the lifting body spacecraft vtol airliners and mighty portugese launch complex were wonderful to look at bill higgins beam jockey in a churchyard in the valley fermi national accelerator laboratory where the myrtle doth entwine bitnet higgins fnal bitnet there grow roses and other posies internet higgins fnal fnal gov fertilized by clementine span hepnet higgins
sci.space	re comet in temporary orbit around jupiter in article apr kelvin jpl nasa gov baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov ron baalke writes in article apr sq sq com msb sq sq com mark brader writes so how close would the comet have gotten to jupiter on the pass that put it into temporary orbit and how far is it likely to get from jupiter before it makes its escape the answer to all of these questions is we don t know yet we don t know for sure if the comet is in a temporary orbit i see i wasn t so interested in this particular case as in typical behavior anyway can these questions be answered for a previous instance such as the gehrels that was mentioned in an earlier posting gehrels was in a temporary jovian orbit for about or years i ll get the orbital elements from dance of the planets and post them here sorry folks i should have done this and meant to just after i hit the send key orbital elements of comet vii from dance files p au e i cap omega w epoch also perihelions of gehrels were april jupiter radii august jupiter radii hope this helps i m even less of an orbital mechanic than i am an artist john garland jgarland kean ucs mun ca
sci.space	two line orbital element set space shuttle the most current orbital elements from the norad two line element sets are carried on the celestial bbs and are updated daily when possible documentation and tracking software are also available on this system as a service to the satellite user community the most current elements for the current shuttle mission are provided below the celestial bbs may be accessed hours day at or bps using data bits stop bit no parity element sets also updated daily shuttle elements and some documentation and software are also available via anonymous ftp from archive afit af mil in the directory pub space sts u a b u b dr ts kelso assistant professor of space operations tkelso afit af mil air force institute of technology
sci.space	re dc x update in article apr stsci edu rdouglas stsci edu rob douglas writes this question is probably mostly for allen sherzer but anyone who knows would be welcome to answer i was just wondering if we could have some kind of update on dc x well it rolled out two weeks ago as we speak it is at white sands getting ready i would have called my sources for the latest but they are all out of town in nm as for the future there is at least m in next years budget for work on ssrt they sdio have been looking for more funds and do seem to have some however sdio is not i repeat is not going to fund an orbital prototype the best we can hope from them is to keep it alive for another year and fund a suborbital vehicle which might with major modifications just make orbit there is also some money for a set of prototype tanks and projects to answer a few more open questions better news comes from the new spacelifter effort the usaf managers of this program are very open to ssto and will have about m next year for studies this would be enough to bring dc y to pdr now not all of this money will go to dc but a good case could be made for spending half on dc public support is still critical meet with your congressperson i ll help you do it and get his her support also call your local media ans get them to cover the flight tests allen lady astor sir if you were my husband i would poison your coffee w churchill madam if you were my wife i would drink it days to first flight of dcx
sci.space	nasp could someone please send me the basics of the nasp project the proposal objectives the current status of the project obstacles encountered chance that the project shall ever be completed or any other interesting information about this project any help will be much appreciated terry ford aa freenet carleton ca house nepean ontario canada earth solar system milky way cluster a discalimer any injuries occuring as a direct result from the reading of this message including heart palpitations is not my fault in any shape or form
sci.space	space event in los angeles ca for immediate release contact oasis april los angeles ca local national space society chapters sponsor talk by l a advocate of lunar power system as energy source for the world on april the oasis and ventura county chapters of the national space society will sponsor a talk by lunar power system lps co inventor and vice president of the lps coalition dr robert d waldron it will be held at p m at the rockwell science center in thousand oaks ca dr waldron is currently a technical specialist in space materials processing with the space systems division of rockwell international in downey california he is a recognized world authority on lunar materials refinement he has written or coauthored more than articles or reports on nonterrestrial materials processing or utilization along with dr david criswell waldron invented the lunar solar power system concept momentum is building for a coalition of entrepreneurs legal experts and soviet and u s scientists and engineers to build the lunar power system a pollution free energy source with a potential to power the globe for the past three years members of the coalition nearly half from california have rejuvenated the commercial and scientific concept of a solar power system based on the moon the lps concept entails collecting solar energy on the lunar surface and beaming the power to earth as microwaves transmitted through orbiting antennae a mature lps offers an enormous source of clean sustainable power to meet the earth s ever increasing demand using proven basic technology oasis organization for the advancement of space industrialization is the greater los angeles chapter of the national space society which is an international non profit organization that promotes development of the space frontier the ventura county chapter is based in oxnard ca where rockwell science center auditorium camino dos rios thousand oaks ca directions ventura freeway to thousand oaks exit onto lynn road heading north right turn from north left turn from south after about mile turn left on camino dos rios after about mile make first right into rockwell after camino colindo parking at top of hill to the left
sci.space	re how many read sci space in article qjs j access digex net prb access digex com pat writes in the old days their used to be arbitron stats that analyzed the readership and posting volumes by group and user they were available from uunet that s how you check the readership of sci space not some stupid unscientific attempt to flood the newsgroup i have abetter idea why don t we all reply directly to the origanator of this post and tell him we read sci space pat sigh i try to make a little joke i try to inject some humour here and what happens in the immortal words of foghorn leghorn i say that was a joke son i thought that the bit about mcelwaine not to mention the two smileys would indicate to even the most humour impaired that i was joking sigh and will everyone who pat s suggestion thanks bunches pat please stop sending me email i shot a man just to watch him die ross borden i m going to disneyland rborden ra uvic ca
sci.space	re shuttle launch question in article c jlwx h cs cmu edu etrat ttacs ttu edu pack rat writes there has been something bothering me while watching nasa select for a while well i should nt say bothering maybe wondering would be better when they are going to launch they say sorry but i forget exactly who is saying what otc to plt i think clear caution warning memory verify no unexpected errors i am wondering what an expected error might be sorry if this is a really dumb question but in pure speculation i would guess cautions based on hazardous pre launch ops would qualify something like caution srbs have just been armed it does raise an interesting question as to how hard it is to pick out an expected error from an unexpected error in the heat of the moment
sci.space	none can someone please remind me who said a well known quotation he was sitting atop a rocket awaiting liftoff and afterwards in answer to the question what he had been thinking about said approximately half a million components each has to work perfectly each supplied by the lowest bidder attribution and correction of the quote would be much appreciated clive trotman
sci.space	re a wrench in the works jmcocker eos ncsu edu mitch writes effect that one of the ssrbs that was recovered after the recent space shuttle launch was found to have a wrench of some sort rattling around apparently inside the case i heard a similar statement in our local news utah tonight they referred to the tool as the pliers that took a ride into space they also said that a thiokol sp employee had reported missing a tool of some kind during assembly of one srb no more info as to the location in the srb i agree pretty weird
sci.space	re solar sail data in article qk qf mf male ebay sun com almo packmind ebay sun com writes hey what happened to the solar sail race that was supposed to be for columbus there was a recession and none of the potential entrants could raise any money the race organizers were actually supposed to be handling part of the fundraising but the less said about that the better all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	re how many read sci space rborden ugly uvic ca ross borden writes quick everyone who sees this post a reply that says hey i read sci space then we can count them and find out how many there are this will also help answer that nagging question just what is the maximum bandwidth of the internet anyways don t you think it would be better to e mail back to you that we read sci space so that you can count them and every server in the world does not have to get bw d to death or instead you could possible cut and past all the senders into a single post and save on header bandwidth not meaning to be taken as a flame it s late and we have to work toward a demo little punchy jftm
sci.space	re clementine science team selected nickh cs cmu edu nick haines writes in article stephens ngis stephens geod emr ca dave stephenson writes remember the first government scientist in the british empire was the astronomer royal who was paid from the department of ordinance budget i e the military flamsteed house the original rgo was built out of army surplus scrap a gate house at the tower of london and paid for by the sale of time expired gunpowder at the time astronomy was vital to the military in that navigation and cartography were of primary impoortance to the military and good cartography was impossible without good astronomy the relevance these daysis somewhat less obvious nick it still applies except the astronomy these days is very long baseline radio astronomy coupled to gps and satellite laser ranging the data from nasa s and the naval observatory s among others is a vital source of data for studies into crustal dynamics earth rotation and purturbations every time there is a leap second added to the new year remember the military and science are still co habiting nicely the same vlbi was used to track gallileo as it passed the earth and used so little fuel that it can afford to observe ida dave stephenson geodetic survey of canada ottawa ontario canada internet stephens geod emr ca
sci.space	cold gas roll control thruster tanks does anyone know how to size cold gas roll control thruster tanks for sounding rockets thanks in advance jim
sci.space	re apollo training in iceland the apollo astronauts also trained at in meteor crater in the flagstaff area arizona there is now a museum with a space shop caution they ease you by compared to a ksc visit it s not worth thorsten nedderhut disclaimer mbp software systems gmbh c o esa esoc fcsd oad stb neither esa nor mbp is responsible darmstadt germany for my postings tnedderh esoc bitnet
sci.space	cold gas tanks for sounding rockets does anyone know how to size cold gas roll control thruster tanks for sounding rockets well first you work out how much cold gas you need then make the tanks big enough working out how much cold gas is another problem depending on vehicle configuration flight duration thruster isp which couples into storage pressure which may be a factor in selecting tank wall thickness etc ralph lorenz unit for space sciences university of kent uk
sci.space	big amateur rockets i was reading popular science this morning and was surprised by an ad in the back i know that a lot of the ads in the back of ps are fringe science or questionablely legal but this one really grabbed my attention it was from a company name personal missle inc or something like that anyhow the ad stated that they d sell rockets that were up to in length and engines of sizes f to m they also said that some rockets will reach feet now aside from the obvious dangers to any amateur rocketeer using one of these beasts isn t this illegal i can t imagine the faa allowing people to shoot rockets up through the flight levels of passenger planes not to even mention the problem of locating a rocket when it comes down and no i m not going to even think of buying one i m not that crazy paul mine ll do feet and carries pounds of dynamite dokas include std disclaimer define full name paul dokas define email pbd runyon cim cdc com just remember you will die someday
sci.space	re shuttle oxygen was budget astronaut henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes there is an emergency oxygen system that is capable of maintaining a breathable atmosphere in the cabin for long enough to come down even if there is something like a cm hole in the wall that nobody tries to plug josh hopkins jbh uxa cso uiuc edu replied wow double wow can you land a shuttle with a cm hole in the wall personnally i don t know but i d like to try it sometime programmatically yes we can land an orbiter with a cm hole in the wall provided that the thing which caused cm hole didn t cause a crit failure on some of the internal systems there are a few places where a cm hole would cause a bad day especially if the cm hole went all the way through the orbiter and out the other side as could easily happen with a meteor strike but a hole in the pressure vessel would cause us to immediately de orbit to the next available landing site ken jenks nasa jsc gm space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov nasa turns dreams into realities and makes science fiction into fact daniel s goldin nasa administrator
sci.space	japanese moon landing afraid i can t give any more info on this and hoping someone in greter netland has some details a short story in the newspaper a few days ago made some sort of mention about how the japanese using what sounded like a gravity assist had just managed to crash or crash land a package on the moon the article was very vague and unclear and to make matters worse i didn t clip it does this jog anyone s memory thanks dannyb panix com
sci.space	re big amateur rockets in article c ky y mkk raistlin udev cdc com pbd runyon cim cdc com paul dokas writes anyhow the ad stated that they d sell rockets that were up to in length and engines of sizes f to m they also said that some rockets will reach feet now aside from the obvious dangers to any amateur rocketeer using one of these beasts isn t this illegal i can t imagine the faa allowing people to shoot rockets up through the flight levels of passenger planes the situation in this regard has changed considerably in recent years see the discussion of high power rocketry in the rec models rockets frequently asked questions list this is not hardware you can walk in off the street and buy you need proper certification that can be had mostly through tripoli the high power analog of the nar although the nar is cautiously moving to extend the upper boundaries of what it considers proper too you need special faa authorization but provided you aren t doing it under one of the lax runway approaches or something stupid like that it s not especially hard to arrange as with model rocketry this sort of hardware is reasonably safe if handled properly proper handling takes more care and you need a lot more empty air to fly in but it s basically just model rocketry scaled up as with model rocketry the high power people use factory built engines which eliminates the major safety hazard of do it yourself rocketry all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	re a wrench in the works nanderso endor sim es com norman anderson writes jmcocker eos ncsu edu mitch writes effect that one of the ssrbs that was recovered after the recent space shuttle launch was found to have a wrench of some sort rattling around apparently inside the case i heard a similar statement in our local news utah tonight they referred to the tool as the pliers that took a ride into space they also said that a thiokol sp employee had reported missing a tool of some kind during assembly of one srb i assume then that someone at thiokol put on their manager s hat and said that pissing off the customer by delaying shipment of the srb to look inside it was a bad idea regardless of where that tool might have ended up why do i get the feeling that thiokol manager s hats are shaped like cones
sci.space	re how many read sci space rborden ugly uvic ca ross borden writes in article f permanet org mark prado p f n z permane one could go on and on and on here but i wonder how many people read sci space and of what power influence are these individuals quick everyone who sees this post a reply that says hey i read sci space then we can count them and find out how many there are this will also help answer that nagging question just what is the maximum bandwidth of the internet anyways as an amateur radio operator vhf metres i like to keep up with what is going up and for that matter what is coming down too in about days i have learned alot about satellites current future and past all the way back to vanguard series and up to astro d observatory space i borrowed a book from the library called weater satellites i think it has a photo of the earth with a tiros type satellite on it i would like to build a model or have a large color poster of one of the tiros satellites i think there are places in the usa that sell them itos is my favorite looking satellite followed by amsat oscar ao ttyl jim jim inqmind bison mb ca the inquiring mind bbs winnipeg manitoba
sci.space	re shuttle oxygen was budget astronaut in article apr aio jsc nasa gov kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov writes josh hopkins jbh uxa cso uiuc edu replied double wow can you land a shuttle with a cm hole in the wall personnally i don t know but i d like to try it sometime are you volunteering but a hole in the pressure vessel would cause us to immediately de orbit to the next available landing site will nasa have available landing sites in the russian republic now that they are our friends and comrades software engineering that s like military intelligence isn t it sysmgr cadlab eng umd edu
sci.space	sixty two thousand was re how many read sci space reply address mark prado permanet org if anyone knows anyone else who would like to get sci space but doesn t have an internet feed or has a cryptic internet feed i would be willing to feed it to them i have a nice offline message reader editor an automated modem mailer program which will pick up mail bundles quickly and easily and an install exe to set them up painlessly no charge for the sci space feed though you have to dial washington d c this is not a bbs it s a store forward system for mail bundles with minimum connect times i m used to overseas calls this is not an offer for a free feed for any other particular newsgroups speeds of up to v bis are supported vip s might be offered other free services such as internet address and other functionality i get my feed from uunet and run a line hub i ve been hubbing for years i have an extremely reliable hub the software i provide runs under ms dos and os and windows as a dos box other compatible software packages exist for the macintosh and unix any responses should be private and go to mark prado permanet org by the way to all my apologies for the public traffic on my glib question i really didn t expect public replys but thanks to bill higgins for the interesting statistics and the lead origin permannet ftsc internet gateway
sci.space	re japanese moon landing in article c kys c r panix com dannyb panix com daniel burstein writes a short story in the newspaper a few days ago made some sort of mention about how the japanese using what sounded like a gravity assist had just managed to crash or crash land a package on the moon their hiten engineering test mission spent a while in a highly eccentric earth orbit doing lunar flybys and then was inserted into lunar orbit using some very tricky gravity assist like maneuvering this meant that it would crash on the moon eventually since there is no such thing as a stable lunar orbit as far as anyone knows and i believe i recall hearing recently that it was about to happen all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	re big amateur rockets in article c ky y mkk raistlin udev cdc com pbd runyon cim cdc com paul dokas writes i was reading popular science this morning and was surprised by an ad in the back i know that a lot of the ads in the back of ps are fringe science or questionablely legal but this one really grabbed my attention it was from a company name personal missle inc or something like that anyhow the ad stated that they d sell rockets that were up to in length and engines of sizes f to m they also said that some rockets will reach feet now aside from the obvious dangers to any amateur rocketeer using one of these beasts isn t this illegal i can t imagine the faa allowing people to shoot rockets up through the flight levels of passenger planes not to even mention the problem of locating a rocket when it comes down and no i m not going to even think of buying one i m not that crazy paul mine ll do feet and carries pounds of dynamite dokas could it be public missile inc in michigan from the description of ad here it sounds like they re talking about high power rocketry an outgrowth of model rocketry this hobby uses non metallic structural compoments and commerically manufactured engines ranging in impulse classification from g to p the hobby has been flourishing from early s and is becoming increasing popular technically this is not consider amateur rocketry any rocket with a liftoff weight greater than pounds or using a total impulse of g or greater requires an faa waiver to launch typically a group of people get an faa waiver for specified period of time ie week weekend etc at a designated site and time and all of the launches are then covered under this blanket waiver there is also a high power safety code which designates more specific rules such as launch field size etc finally in order to purchase any of the larger class b rocket motors you need to certified through either the national association of rocketry or tripoli rocketry association certification procedures require a demonstarted handling and safe flight at a total impulse level for more information watch rec models rockets newsgroup r michael jungclas uucp att ihlpb rjungcla at t bell labs naperville il internet rjungcla ihlpb att com
sci.space	re big amateur rockets let s see these aren t in a strict sense amateur rockets that term denotes rockets the engines of which are constructed by the user the rockets you describe are called hpr or high power rockets to distinguish them from smaller model rockets they use factory made ammonium perchlorate composite propellants in phenolic plastic engines with graphite nozzles the engines are classified by impulse a d engine for example can have no more than newton seconds of impulse an f engine can have no more than ns each letter corresponds to a doubling of the maximum impulse so far engines up to size o are available pretty much off the shelf engines of size h and above are shipped as class b explosives and as such are controlled engines of size f and below are shipped as class c explosives and are not as controlled class f engines btw are not hpr engines but model rocket engines class g engines go in and out of legal limbo there is an hpr society the tripoli rocket society i believe which holds events at various sites throughout the year with all legalities faa waiver included taken care of the national association of rocketry is more concerned with engines below h though it is involved in hpr as well these societies certify users of hpr rockets and companies will not sell to uncertified individuals bottom line it s legit i suggest you send for a catalog but forget the dynamite will ya larry c
sci.space	space event near los angeles ca apologies if this gets posted twice but i don t think the first one made it for immediate release contact oasis april los angeles ca local national space society chapters sponsor talk by l a advocate of lunar power system as energy source for the world on april the oasis and ventura county chapters of the national space society will sponsor a talk by lunar power system lps co inventor and vice president of the lps coalition dr robert d waldron it will be held at p m at the rockwell science center in thousand oaks ca dr waldron is currently a technical specialist in space materials processing with the space systems division of rockwell international in downey california he is a recognized world authority on lunar materials refinement he has written or coauthored more than articles or reports on nonterrestrial materials processing or utilization along with dr david criswell waldron invented the lunar solar power system concept momentum is building for a coalition of entrepreneurs legal experts and soviet and u s scientists and engineers to build the lunar power system a pollution free energy source with a potential to power the globe for the past three years members of the coalition nearly half from california have rejuvenated the commercial and scientific concept of a solar power system based on the moon the lps concept entails collecting solar energy on the lunar surface and beaming the power to earth as microwaves transmitted through orbiting antennae a mature lps offers an enormous source of clean sustainable power to meet the earth s ever increasing demand using proven basic technology oasis organization for the advancement of space industrialization is the greater los angeles chapter of the national space society which is an international non profit organization that promotes development of the space frontier the ventura county chapter is based in oxnard ca where rockwell science center auditorium camino dos rios thousand oaks ca directions ventura freeway to thousand oaks exit onto lynn road heading north right turn from north left turn from south after about mile turn left on camino dos rios after about mile make first right into rockwell after camino colindo parking at top of hill to the left
sci.space	re big amateur rockets actually they are legal i not familiar with the ad you are speaking of but knowing popular science it is probably on the fringe however you may be speaking of public missle inc which is a legitimate company that has been around for a while due to advances in composite fuels engines are now available for model rockets using similar composites to srb fuel roughly times more powerful than black powder motors they are even available in a reloadable form i e aluminum casing end casings o rings the engines range from d all the way to m in common manufacture n and o i ve heard of used at special occasions to be a model rocket however the rocket can t contain any metal structural parts amongst other requirements i ve never heard of a model rocket doing i have heard of foot flights these require faa waivers of course there are a few large national launches ldrs fireballs at which you can see many k sized engine flights actually using a g engine constitutes the area of high power rocketry which is seperate from normal model rocketry purchase of engines like i have been describing require membership in the national association of rocketry the tripoli rocketry assoc or you have to be part of an educational institute or company involved in rocketry amatuer rocketry is another area i m not really familiar with this but it is an area where metal parts are allowed along with liquid fuels and what not i don t know what kind of regulations are involved but i m sure they are numerous high power rocketry is very exciting if you are interested or have more questions there is a newsgroup rec model rockets
sci.space	re dc x update in apr iti org aws iti org allen w sherzer writes as for the future there is at least m in next years budget for work on ssrt they sdio have been looking for more funds and do seem to have some however sdio is not i repeat is not going to fund an orbital prototype the best we can hope from them is to keep it alive for another year and fund a suborbital vehicle which might with major modifications just make orbit there is also some money for a set of prototype tanks and projects to answer a few more open questions would the sub orbital version be suitable as is or as will be for use as a reuseable sounding rocket better news comes from the new spacelifter effort the usaf managers of this program are very open to ssto and will have about m next year for studies this would be enough to bring dc y to pdr thank ghod i had thought that spacelifter would definitely be the bastard son of nls and just as a reminder now not all of this money will go to dc but a good case could be made for spending half on dc public support is still critical meet with your congressperson i ll help you do it and get his her support also call your local media and get them to cover the flight tests
sci.space	re a wrench in the works from another space forum now where did i leave those pliers when workers at the kennedy space center disassembled the sts solid rocket boosters they were surprised to find a pair of pliers lodged into the outside base of the right hand srb the tool survived the trip from the launch pad up to approximately a foot altitude then down to splashdown and towing back to ksc nasa spokesperson lisa malone told the media it s been a long time since something like this happened we ve lost washers and bolts before but never a tool like this the initial investigation into the incident has shown that a thiokol corp technician noticed and reported his pliers as missing on april nd unfortunately the worker s supervisor did not act on the report and discovery was launched with its extra payload nasa officials were never told of the missing tool before the april th launch date the free flying pliers were supposed to be tethered to the srb technician when the tool was found in an aft section of the booster its inch long rope was still attached the pliers were found in a part of the booster which is not easily visible from the launch pad ron s ed note naaahhh just too easy a spokesperson for the lockheed space operations company said that the shuttle processor will take appropriate action thiokol is a subcontractor to lsoc for work to prepare shuttle hardware for launch karl anderson dev configuration management version control dept k rochester minnesota tie internet karl vnet ibm com prodigy cmmg a to seek to strive to find and not to yield alfred lord tennyson
sci.space	re a wrench in the works in article ksr com jfw ksr com john f woods writes nanderso endor sim es com norman anderson writes jmcocker eos ncsu edu mitch writes effect that one of the ssrbs that was recovered after the recent space shuttle launch was found to have a wrench of some sort rattling around apparently inside the case i heard a similar statement in our local news utah tonight they referred to the tool as the pliers that took a ride into space they also said that a thiokol sp employee had reported missing a tool of some kind during assembly of one srb it was a test of the first reusable tool i assume then that someone at thiokol put on their manager s hat and said that pissing off the customer by delaying shipment of the srb to look inside it was a bad idea regardless of where that tool might have ended up why do i get the feeling that thiokol manager s hats are shaped like cones pointy so they can find them or so they will stick into their pants better and be closer to their brains dillon pyron the opinions expressed are those of the ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated when i m here when i m home texans vote no on robin hood we need pyron skndiv dseg ti com solutions not gestures padi dm
sci.space	re japanese moon landing in article c kys c r panix com dannyb panix com daniel burstein writes a short story in the newspaper a few days ago made some sort of mention about how the japanese using what sounded like a gravity assist had just managed to crash or crash land a package on the moon the japanese spacecraft hiten crashed on the moon last weekend for the past three years it has made several lunar flybys and even did some aerobraking experiments with earth s atmosphere it was placed in lunar orbit in february and i guess it finally ran out of fuel and was unable to maintain its orbit around the moon ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab m s telos the aweto from new zealand pasadena ca is part caterpillar and part vegetable
sci.space	washington post article on us russian space cooperation reported yesterday in the washington post kathy sawyer writer the article plays down the russian role in us space gibbons science advisor to clinton sent goldin a letter indicating nasa should not limit redesign options to those compatible with mir orbit the white house thinks expectations for russian cooperation have been raised too high the article reports that some think the spending and schedule limits for space station are so stringent that the redesign is nearly impossible that s why some think goldin has begun looking at russian hardware goldin states nasa will present all options to the administration which will then have decision making power goldin and the white house have totally ruled out using energia to boost the station chuck divine
sci.space	re japanese moon landing in article c l xt iqd zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes in article c kys c r panix com dannyb panix com daniel burstein writes a short story in the newspaper a few days ago made some sort of mention about how the japanese using what sounded like a gravity assist had just managed to crash or crash land a package on the moon their hiten engineering test mission spent a while in a highly eccentric earth orbit doing lunar flybys and then was inserted into lunar orbit using some very tricky gravity assist like maneuvering this meant that it would crash on the moon eventually since there is no such thing as a stable lunar orbit as far as anyone knows and i believe i recall hearing recently that it was about to happen the gravity maneuvering that was used was to exploit fuzzy regions these are described by the inventor as exploiting the second order perturbations in a three body system the probe was launched into this region for the earth moon sun system where the perturbations affected it in such a way as to allow it to go into lunar orbit without large expenditures of fuel to slow down the idea is that natural objects sometimes get captured without expending fuel we ll just find the trajectory that makes it possible the originator of the technique said that nasa wasn t interested but that japan was because their probe was small and couldn t hold a lot of fuel for deceleration this from an issue of science news or the planetary report i believe about months ago raymond l swartz jr rls uihepa hep uiuc edu i read the newspaper today and was amazed that in hours five billion people could accomplish so little
sci.space	orion drive in vacuum how background the orion spacedrive was a theoretical concept it would be a drive using thermonuclear explosions to drive a spacecraft the idea was that you d detonate devices with somewhere from one to ten megatons yield behind a pusher plate attached to the main spacecraft the shock wave from the explosions would transfer momentum to the ship now in an atmosphere i can see this the energy of the explosion heats the atmosphere which expands explosively and slams a shock wave into the pusher plate but in a vacuum only two things i can see are going to hit the plate fission fusion products barium krypton helium neutrons evaporated bomb casing and electromagnetic radiation gammas mostly some light heat from irradiated fission products would this work i can t see the em radiation impelling very much momentum especially given the mass of the pusher plate and it seems to me you re going to get more momentum transfer throwing the bombs out the back of the ship than you get from detonating them once they re there i must be missing something would someone enlighten me via email thanks jim jim goltz alternet engineer goltz uunet uu net
sci.space	how to read sci space without netnews in article f permanet org mark prado p f n z permanet org mark prado writes if anyone knows anyone else who would like to get sci space but doesn t have an internet feed or has a cryptic internet feed i would be willing to feed it to them kudos to mark for his generous offer but there already exists a large email based forwarding system for sci space posts space digest it mirrors sci space exactly and provides simple two way communication to subscribe send the following message in the body not subject of an email message subscribe space john q public to one of these addresses listserv uga listserv uga cc uga edu listserv finhutc listserv finhuc hut fi space request isu isunet edu you ll receive all the posts in digest form once a day please use a listserv if you can the space request address is handled manually to post messages send your message with a reasonable subject line to space isu isunet edu questions comments to space request isu isunet edu mark maimone phone carnegie mellon computer science email mwm cmu edu
sci.space	re japanese moon landing in article c ldod pc news cso uiuc edu rls uihepa hep uiuc edu writes allow it to go into lunar orbit without large expenditures of fuel to slow down the idea is that natural objects sometimes get captured without expending fuel we ll just find the trajectory that makes it possible the originator of the technique said that nasa wasn t interested but that japan was because their probe was small and couldn t hold a lot of fuel for deceleration actually hiten wasn t originally intended to go into lunar orbit at all so it indeed didn t have much fuel on hand the lunar orbit mission was an afterthought after hagoromo a tiny subsatellite deployed by hiten during a lunar flyby had a transmitter failure and its proper insertion into lunar orbit couldn t be positively confirmed it should be noted that the technique does have disadvantages it takes a long time and you end up with a relatively inconvenient lunar orbit if you want something useful like a low circular polar orbit you do have to plan to expend a certain amount of fuel although it is reduced from what you d need for the brute force approach all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	re orion drive in vacuum how in article qn bginn s mimi uu net goltz mimi uu net james p goltz writes would this work i can t see the em radiation impelling very much momentum especially given the mass of the pusher plate and it seems to me you re going to get more momentum transfer throwing the bombs out the back of the ship than you get from detonating them once they re there the orion concept as actually proposed as opposed to the way it has been somewhat misrepresented in some fiction included wrapping a thick layer of reaction mass probably plastic of some sort around each bomb the bomb vaporizes the reaction mass and it s that which transfers momentum to the pusher plate all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	re shuttle oxygen was budget astronaut i thought that under emergency conditions the sts can put down at any good size airport if it could take a c or a then it can take an orbiter you just need a vor tac i don t know if they need ils pat anyone know for sure
sci.space	re how many read sci space in article apr sol uvic ca rborden ugly uvic ca ross borden writes in article qjs j access digex net prb access digex com pat writes in the old days their used to be arbitron stats that analyzed the readership and posting volumes by group and user they were available from uunet that s how you check the readership of sci space not some stupid unscientific attempt to flood the newsgroup i have abetter idea why don t we all reply directly to the origanator of this post and tell him we read sci space pat sigh i try to make a little joke i try to inject some humour here and what happens in the immortal words of foghorn leghorn i say that was a joke son i thought that the bit about mcelwaine not to mention the two smileys would indicate to even the most humour impaired that i was joking sigh and will everyone who pat s suggestion thanks bunches pat please stop sending me email i shot a man just to watch him die ross borden i m going to disneyland rborden ra uvic ca now i had put a wink at the end of my suggestion indicating it was intensely sarcastic i can t help it if everyone got all serious ross i never saw your original posting it dropped on the floor somewhere i just saw the trickle down thought it was intensely stupid not knowing anything about the joke mentioned arbitron and left it with an equally stupid joke bill in his ever increasing devotion to thoroughness dug up several arbitron stats i myself think the arbitron stats are severely methodologically impaired but are a good measure of proportion i don t think anyone knows how many people read news anymore pat
sci.space	re japanese moon landing there is no such thing as a stable lunar orbit is it right that is new stuff for me so it means that you just can not put a sattellite around around the moon for too long because its orbit will be unstable if so what is the reason is that because the combined gravitacional atraction of the sun moon and earth that does not provide a stable orbit around the moon c o egalon larc nasa gov c o egalon larc nasa gov claudio oliveira egalon
sci.space	portuguese launch complex was doppelganger portugese launch complex were wonderful portuguese launch complex gosh polish are for american in the same way as portuguese are for brazilians i am from brazil there is a joke about the portuguese space agency that wanted to send a portuguese astronaut to the surface of the sun if there is such a thing how did they solve all problems of sending a man to the surface of the sun simple their astronauts travelled during the night c o egalon larc nasa gov c o egalon larc nasa gov claudio oliveira egalon
sci.space	re space news from feb aw st marshall is investigating a small but odd pressure rise in one srb during the jan endeavour launch it lasted only three seconds and the thrust difference between the two srbs was not enough to cause nozzle gimballing the srb casing shows no abnormalities is this the one that had the wrench pliers found inside after recovery
sci.space	quotation lowest bidder can someone please remind me who said a well known quotation he was sitting atop a rocket awaiting liftoff and afterwards in answer to the question what he had been thinking about said approximately half a million components each has to work perfectly each supplied by the lowest bidder attribution and correction of the quote would be much appreciated clive trotman
sci.space	moscow aviation institute summer school i have attached a copy of an announcement i picked up during my trip to moscow last week i have several friends at the moscow aviation institute who have asked me to post this announcement i have done some editing but the contents is unchanged from the original announcement for those of you not familiar with the moscow aviation institute it is the leading russian school of higher education dedicated to the training of aircraft and spacecraft designers it specializes in airframe design powerplant design control systems and power systems virtually all of the major former soviet airframe designers tupolev su iluchine migoyan etc were schooled at mai i had the opportunity to tour the two museums that are maintained at mai the aircraft include mig su yak the cockpit of an f among others it was a fascinating and eye opening experience expecially given the fact that the museum was until a year or so ago closed to virtually everyone i also had the opportunity to see some of the experiments being conducted with plasma drive engines for future space craft use if you have any questions about the institute or the program i would be glad to try and answer them the institute and most of it s faculty have e mail addresses however it takes about a day or so for the receiver to get the message they are still a bit antiquated but they are rapidly changing steve emmett semmett gmuvax gmu edu ps please send any questions you have for me via e mail george mason university has about a week delay in news feed delivery moscow international aviation school the aviation school poljot meaning flight is organized by the the moscow aviation institute the prominent russian center of airspace education and the foreign trade firm poljot well known in various parts of the world for their quartz and mechanical wrist watches the course of studies will last only days but during this time you will have the unique opportunity to listen to intensive courses on the main aviation disciplines the history and theory of techniques and design of airplanes to visit and get acquainted with the world known russian aviation firms tu mig yak il and su to meet and have discussions with famous aviation scientists engineers and pilots to visit the most interesting museums of unique aviation techniques which were closed for many years to the public to see the international airspace show which will take place in moscow from august through september to visit famous art museums historical and architectural monuments theatres and concert halls to take part in sport competitions and have a great time with new friends the director of the school is mr oleg samelovich a well known russian scientist professor general designer and the chief of the airplanes design department of the moscow aviation institute mr samelovich is one of the designers of the the su su and su the lectures are given in english using a multi media concept the students are provided with all the necessary text books and literature after the full course of studies are completed the student will receive a special certificate of graduation the cost of studies including hotel meals excursions theatres etc is to apply for admission send your application to moscow marksistskaja foreign trade firm poljot phone fax polex su telex in your application include your full name address date and place of birth in addition include complete passport information as well as a description of your education upon receipt of this information poljot will immediately forward to you an official invitation for obtaining a russian entrance visa as well as details on payment should you require additional information please do not hesitate to contact us signed o samelovich steve emmett semmett gmuvax gmu edu csi physics george mason university
sci.space	orion space drive an excellent reference for non technical readers on the orion system is the starflight handbook by eugene mallove and gregory matloff isbn the relevant chapter is nuclear pulse propulsion the book also contains lots of technical references for the more academically inclined enjoy c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c nathan f wallace c c reality is c c e mail wallacen cs colostate edu c c ancient alphaean proverb c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c
sci.space	japanese moon landing temporary orbit rls uihepa hep uiuc edu ray swartz oh that guy again writes the gravity maneuvering that was used was to exploit fuzzy regions these are described by the inventor as exploiting the second order perturbations in a three body system the probe was launched into this region for the earth moon sun system where the perturbations affected it in such a way as to allow it to go into lunar orbit without large expenditures of fuel to slow down the idea is that natural objects sometimes get captured without expending fuel we ll just find the trajectory that makes it possible the originator of the technique said that nasa wasn t interested but that japan was because their probe was small and couldn t hold a lot of fuel for deceleration i should probably re post this with another title so that the guys on the other thread would see that this is a practical use of temporary orbits another possible temporary orbit phil fraering seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff pgf srl cacs usl edu like how the ancient mayans had televison repo man
sci.space	re japanese moon landing in article qnb tinn ff rave larc nasa gov c o egalon larc nasa gov claudio oliveira egalon writes there is no such thing as a stable lunar orbit is it right that is new stuff for me so it means that you just can not put a sattellite around around the moon for too long because its orbit will be unstable if so what is the reason is that because the combined gravitacional atraction of the sun moon and earth that does not provide a stable orbit around the moon any lunar satellite needs fuel to do regular orbit corrections and when its fuel runs out it will crash within months the orbits of the apollo motherships changed noticeably during lunar missions lasting only a few days it is possible that there are stable orbits here and there the moon s gravitational field is poorly mapped but we know of none perturbations from sun and earth are relatively minor issues at low altitudes the big problem is that the moon s own gravitational field is quite lumpy due to the irregular distribution of mass within the moon all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	two line orbital element set space shuttle the most current orbital elements from the norad two line element sets are carried on the celestial bbs and are updated daily when possible documentation and tracking software are also available on this system as a service to the satellite user community the most current elements for the current shuttle mission are provided below the celestial bbs may be accessed hours day at or bps using data bits stop bit no parity element sets also updated daily shuttle elements and some documentation and software are also available via anonymous ftp from archive afit af mil in the directory pub space sts u a b u b dr ts kelso assistant professor of space operations tkelso afit af mil air force institute of technology
sci.space	re guns for space in reference to the limits of acceleration with guns launching solid rockets as payloads thiokol provided me with samples and data on a reinforcement to solid motor grains for high accelerations solid motor propellants usually have a substantial percentage of aluminum in the mix for example the space shuttle srbs are percent aluminum the technique is to use a foamed aluminum structure the structure looks like the inverse of a set of bubbles an i suspect some bubbling process is used to form it in other words if you made a bunch of bubbles in molten aluminum then froze it this is what you get it forms a strong network of effectively aluminum wires in all directions the remaining solid fuel mix is infiltrated into the voids and you get aluminum reinforced solid propellant the foamed aluminum makes up about percent of the total propellant so there is still aluminum particles in the bulk grain the major improvement is the higher resistance to grain cracking which is the principal failure mode for solid propellant dani eder dani eder meridian investment company w h rt box athens al location deg n deg w m alt
sci.space	re guns for space okay lets get the record straight on the livermore gas gun the project manager is dr john hunter and he works for the laser group at livermore what you may ask does gas guns have to do with lasers nothing really but the gun is physically located across the road from the free electron laser building and the fel building has a heavily shielded control room thick walls from which the gun firings are controlled so i suspect that the office he works for is an administrative convenience i visited hunter at the beginning of feb and we toured the gun at the time i was working on gas gun r d at boeing where i work but i am now doing other things helping to save the space station the gun uses a methane air mixture which is burned in a chamber about ft long by inch id i e it looks like a pipe the chamber holds a ton piston which is propelled at several hundred m s down the chamber on the other side of the piston is hudrogen gas initially at room temperature andsome tens of atmospheres the piston compresses and heats the hydrogen ahead of it until a stainless steel burst diaphragm ruptures at around psi the barrel of the gun is about feet long and has a inch bore it is mounted at right angles to the chamber i e they intersect this was done so that in the future the barrel could be raised and the gun fired into the air without having to move the larger and heavier chamber the projectile being used in testing is a kg cylinder of lexan plastic in in diameter and about cm long all of the acceleration comes from the expansion of the hydrogen gas from psi downwards until the projectile leaves the barrel the barrel is evacuated and the end is sealed with a sheet of plastic film a little thicker than saran wrap the plastic is blown off by the small amount of residual air trapped in the barrel ahead of the projectile the gun is fired into a bunker filled with sandbags and plastic water jugs in the early testing fragments of the plastic projectile were found at the higher speeds in later testing the projectile vaporizes the testing is into a bunker because the livermore test range is about miles across and the projectile would go km if fired for maximum range the intent is to move the whole gun to vandenberg afb after the testing is complete where they can fire into the pacific ocean and use the tracking radar at vafb to follow the projectiles the design goal of the gun is to throw a kg projectile at km s half of orbital speed so far they have reached km s and the gun is currently down for repairs as on the last test they blew a seal and damaged some of the hardware i think it had to do with the methane air more detonating than burning but i haven t had a chance to talk to hunter directly on this there are people waiting to test scramjet components in this gun by firing then out of the gun into the air at mach km s since the most you can get in wind tunnels is mach this gun cost about million to develop and is basically a proof of concept for a bigger gun capable of firing useful sized payloads into space this would require on the order of kg projectiles which deliver on the order of kg useful payload to orbit dani eder dani eder meridian investment company w h rt box athens al location deg n deg w m alt
sci.space	re elevator to the top floor reading from a amoco performance products data sheet their erl resin with t carbon fiber reinforcement has a compressive strength of psi it has a density of lb cu in therefore the theoretical height for a constant section column that can just support itself is million inches or ft or statute miles now a real structure will have horizontal bracing either a truss type or guy wires or both and will be used below the crush strength let us assume that we will operate at of the theoretical strength this gives a working height of miles for a constant section column a constant section column is not the limit on how high you can build something if you allow a tapering of the cross section as you go up for example let us say you have a pound load to support at the top of the tower for simplicity in calculation this requires square inches of column cross sectional area to support the weight the mile of structure below the payload will itself weigh lb so at mile below the payload the total load is now lb a increase the next mile of structure must be thicker in cross section to support the top mile of tower plus the payload each mile of structure must increase in area by the same ratio all the way to the bottom we can see from this that there is no theoretical limit on area although there will be practical limits based on how much composites we can afford to by at lb and how much load you need to support on the ground for which you need a foundation that the bedrock can support let us arbitrarily choose billion as the limit in costruction cost with this we can afford perhaps lb of composites assuming our finished structure costs lb the lb figure is just for materials cost then we have a tower payload mass ratio of at a mass ratio per mile the tower height becomes miles this is clearly above the significant atmosphere a rocket launched from the top of the tower will still have to provide orbital velocity but atmospheric drag and g losses will be almost eliminated g losses are the component of rocket thrust in the vertical direction to counter gravity but which do not contribute to horizontal orbital velocity thus they represent wasted thrust together with drag rockets starting from the ground have a velocity penalty to contend with this analysis is simplified in that it does not consider wind loads these will require more structural support over the first miles of height above that the air pressure drops to a low enough value for it not to be a big factor dani eder dani eder meridian investment company w h rt box athens al location deg n deg w m alt
sci.space	end of the space age there is an interesting opinion piece in the business section of today s la times thursday april p d i thought i d post it to stir up some flame wars i mean reasoned debate let me preface it by saying that i largely agree that the space age in the romantic sense of several decades ago is over and that projects like the space station miss the point at this time reading for example what s new the weekly physics update we get here on the net it s clear that the romance of the day lies in the ever more fine grained manipulation of matter by which i include biotechnology condensed matter physics with its spinoffs in computer hardware and elsewhere and the amazing things people are doing with individual atoms these days to a large extent i think the romance some people still have with space is a matter of nostalgia i feel sure that someday we or more precisely our mind children will spread across space unless we wipe ourselves out but i think that manned space exploration is not what is exciting about what we can do now anyway let me quote some of this article but not all space age glory fades from view micheal schrage writer consultant and research associate at mit at america s space age won t have to suffer through the angst of a midlife crisis the reason is that the space age is already dead the technologies no longer define our times and the public has grown weary of the multibillion dollar celestial investments that yield minimal psychic or economic rewards space exploration has mutated from a central focuse of america s science and technology debate into a peripheral issue speace is not a meaningful part of the ongoing industrial competitiveness debate our technology infrastructure discussions or even our defense conversion policy to be sure america should continue to invest in satellite technologies for telecommunications and remote sensing cheap deep space probes would be nice too but the ideal of space as a meaningful driver of scientific and industrial innovation is now dead before the change in administrations it would have been foolish to write an obituary for the space age the bush white house aggressively supported the space program and proposed spending well over billion to build space station freedom alone even as he proposed budget cuts in other science and technology domains office of management and budget director richard darman was an outspoken public champion of big ticket space expenditures the reality that much of the civilian space program from the shuttle to the hubble telescope to the space station was poorly conceived and unimpressively implemented did not seem to matter much political inertia and a nostalgic sense of futurism not a coherent vision or cost effective sensibilities determined multibillion dollar space budgets indeed with few notable exceptions such as voyager the post apollo era is the story of the gold plated porkification of space exploration with programs and promises that delivered less for more and more while the clinton administration has kept on the highly regarded daniel goldin as administrator of the national aeronautics and space administration it seems clear that space exploration is not being positioned as either a symbolic or substantive centerpiece of america s technological prowess the space station budget has rightly been slashed space is virtually ignored when the administration champions its competitiveness agenda i wish this had happened years ago instead of starting to happen now says bruce murray a caltech professor who ran nasa s jet propulsion lab in pasadena we ve put off a lot of things we shouldn t have i would rather see a billion nasa doing well than a billion one filled with white elephants
sci.space	re orion drive in vacuum how in article qn bginn s mimi uu net james p goltz goltz mimi uu net writes background the orion spacedrive was a theoretical concept it was more than a theoretical concept it was seriously pursued by freeman dyson et al many years ago i don t know how well known this is but a high explosive orion prototype flew in the atmosphere in san diego back in or i was working at general atomic at the time but i didn t learn about the experiment until almost thirty years later when ted taylor visited us and revealed that it had been done i feel sure that someone must have film of that experiment and i d really like to see it has anyone out there seen it leigh
sci.space	help for school i am a newbie to the net and i am trying to get some information for a paper i am working on to get back into college if anyone can send me data on solar coronal holes and recurrant aurora for the past thirty years it would be a big help or if you have information on more esoteric things like telluric current surge bafflers power companies use or other effects sporatic aurora have on the earth s magnetic field i d be eternally gratefull please send anything interesting to me at marty crandall grela van vleck observatory wesleyan university middletown ct or e mail it to me at mcrandall eagle wesleyan edu thank you in advance marty
sci.space	re solar sail data in article apr news duc auburn edu snydefj eng auburn edu frank j snyder writes i am looking for any information concerning projects involving solar sails i understand that the jpl did an extensive study on the subject back in the late s but i am having trouble gathering such information are there any groups out there currently involved in such a project frank snyder auburn university snydefj eng auburn edu i know someone had long talks about solar sails early this year and late last year also about solar sailing not sure who captured it if possible i think it was one of the regulars who had most or all the data i think i started the latest round or the late last year round but the topic has been around here off and on for a year or two michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked
sci.space	russian email contacts does anyone have any russian contacts space or other or contacts in the old ussr su or eastern europe post them here so we all can talk to them and ask questions i think the cost of email is high so we would have to keep the content to specific topics and such basically if we want to save russia and such then we need to make contacts contacts are a form of info so lets get informing michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked alive in nome alaska once called russian america
sci.space	quotation was re none in article apr otago ac nz bioccnt otago ac nz writes can someone please remind me who said a well known quotation he was sitting atop a rocket awaiting liftoff and afterwards in answer to the question what he had been thinking about said approximately half a million components each has to work perfectly each supplied by the lowest bidder sounds similar to something wally schirra said bruce watson wats scicom alphacdc com bulletin item extract
sci.space	re orbital repairstation the difficulties of a high isp otv include long transfer times radiation damage from vanallen belts for both the spacecraft and otv arcjets or xenon thrusters require huge amounts of power so you have to have either nuclear power source messy dangerous and source of radiation damage or big solar arrays sensitive to radiation or heavy that make attitude control and docking a big pain if you go solar you have to replace the arrays every trip with current technology nuclear power sources are strongly restricted by international treaty refueling even for very high isp like xenon is still required and turn out to be a pain you either have to develop autonomous rendezvous or long range teleoperation to do docking or and refueling you still can t do much plane change because the deltav required is so high the air force continues to look at doing things this way though i suppose they are biding their time till the technology becomes available and the problems get solved not impossible in principle but hard to do and marginally cheaper than one shot rockets at least today just a few random thoughts on high isp otv s i designed one once steve collins
sci.space	army in space is anybody out there willing to discuss with me careers in the army that deal with space after i graduate i will have a commitment to serve in the army and i would like to spend it in a space related field i saw a post a long time ago about the air force space command which made a fleeting reference to its army counter part any more info on that would be appreciated i m looking for things like do i branch intelligence or signal or other to whom do i voice my interest in space what qualifications are necessary etc etc btw my major is computer science engineering please reply to ktj reef cis ufl edu thanks for any info whether they ever find life there or not i think jupiter should be considered an enemy planet jack handy ktj reef cis ufl edu cirop elm circa ufl edu endeavour circa ufl edu
sci.space	re orion drive in vacuum how in article apr sfu ca leigh palmer palmer sfu ca writes in article qn bginn s mimi uu net james p goltz goltz mimi uu net writes background the orion spacedrive was a theoretical concept it was more than a theoretical concept it was seriously pursued by freeman dyson et al many years ago i don t know how well known this is but a high explosive orion prototype flew in the atmosphere in san diego back in or i was working at general atomic at the time but i didn t learn about the experiment until almost thirty years later when ted taylor visited us and revealed that it had been done i feel sure that someone must have film of that experiment and i d really like to see it has anyone out there seen it leigh nope i haven t seen the film but taylor s biography the curve of binding energy contains a short section on orion and this test flight apparently it was quite impressi and got von braun very excited in real life mike williams perpetual grad student e mail mrw e virginia edu it s not just a job it s an indenture if you ever have a world of your own plan ahead don t eat it st tng
sci.space	re space debris there is a guy in nasa johnson space center that might answer your question i do not have his name right now but if you follow up i can dig that out for you c o egalon larc nasa gov claudio oliveira egalon
sci.space	end of the space age we are not at the end of the space age but only at the end of its beginning that space exploration is no longer a driver for technical innovation or a focus of american cultural attention is certainly debatable however technical developments in other quarters will always be examined for possible applications in the space area and we can look forward to many innovations that might enhance the capabilities and lower the cost of future space operations the dream is alive and well jeff bytof member technical staff institute for remote exploration
sci.space	re what if the ussr had reached the moon first this is turning into what s a moonbase good for and i ought not to post when i ve a hundred some odd posts to go but i would think that the real reason to have a moon base is economic since someone with space industry will presumeably have a much larger gnp than they would without space industry eventually they will simply be able to afford more stuff graydon
sci.space	space shuttle information wanted hello everyone i was hoping someone could help me out i m writing a program for my astronautics class for assent of the shuttle into a low orbit there are two things i d like to know first how much time elapses between launch and the pitch over second what is the cross sectional area of the shuttle srb s and ext tank thanks for any information post or e mail joel belog nether wpi wpi edu
sci.space	re army in space ktj beach cis ufl edu kerry todd johnson writes is anybody out there willing to discuss with me careers in the army that deal with space after i graduate i will have a commitment to serve in the army and i would like to spend it in a space related field i saw a post a long time ago about the air force space command which made a fleeting reference to its army counter part any more info on that would be appreciated i m looking for things like do i branch intelligence or signal or other to whom do i voice my interest in space what qualifications are necessary etc etc btw my major is computer science engineering kerry i m guessing a little at this because it s been a few years since i saw the info but you will probably want to look at air defense artillery as a specialty or possibly signals the kind of thing you re looking for is sdi type assignments but it ll be pretty prosaic stuff things like hard kill atbm missiles some of the cobra rigs that kind of thing hope that gives you some ideas on where to look though charlie prael dante shakala com shakala bbs clanzen radio network sunnyvale ca
sci.space	re nasa wraps in article apr iti org aws iti org allen w sherzer writes in article apr judy uh edu wingo cspara decnet fedex msfc nasa gov writes btw universities do the same thing they however have a wrap of to again this is over and above any overhead charge wrong allen the max overhead charge is all of the charge there is no seperately budgeted overhead in any shape size form or fashion a professor at the university of virginia told me their wrap was about the subcontracts i have let out and worked on for other universities are about the same my employer a non profit research institute does the same this is generally reffered to as the fee i don t care who told you this it is not generally true i see every single line item on a contract and i have to sign it there is no such thing as wrap at this university i also asked around here ther is no wrap at marquette university of wisconsin madison utah state weber state or embry riddle u i am not saying that it doees not happen but in every instance that i have been able to track down it does not also the president of our university who was provost at university of west virgina said that it did not happen there either and that this figure must be included in the overhead to be a legitimate charge how do i know i write proposals and have won contracts and i know to the dime what the charges are at uah for example the overhead is sounds like they are adding it to their overhead rate go ask your costing people how much fee they add to a project i did they never heard of it but suggest that like our president did that any percentage number like this is included in the overhead if you have some numbers allen then show them else quit barking i did dennis read the article to repeat an internal estimate done by the reston costing department says freedom can be built for about b a year and operated for b per year if all the money where spent on freedom since we spend about half a billion more per year it looks like roughly of the money is wasted now if you think i m making this up you can confirm it in the anonymous editorial published a few weeks ago in space news no allen you did not you merely repeated allegations made by an employee of the overhead capital of nasa nothing that reston does could not be dont better or cheaper at the other nasa centers where the work is going on kinda funny isn t it that someone who talks about a problem like this is at a place where everything is overhead this dennis is why nasa has so many problems you can t accept that anything is wrong unless you can blame it on congress oh sure you ll say nasa has problems but do you believe it remember the wp overrun you insisted it was all congresses fault when nasa management knew about the overrun for almost a year yet refused to act do you still blame congress for the overrun why did the space news artice point out that it was the congressionally demanded change that caused the problems methinks that you are being selective with the facts again by your own numbers allen at a cost of million per flight the service cost of flying shuttle to ssf is billion for four flights so how did you get your one billion number i have no idea what your trying to say here dennis allen if it takes four flights a year to resupply the station and you have a cost of million a flight then you pay billion a year you stated that your friend at reston said that with the current station they could resupply it for a billion a year if the wrap were gone this merely points out a blatent contridiction in your numbers that understandably you fail to see dennis university of alabama in huntsville sorry gang but i have a deadline for a satellite so someone else is going to have to do allen s math for him for a while i will have little chance to do so
sci.space	re army in space there is the army ballistic missile defense organization they were the precursors to sdio and still exist under that umbrella army signal corp s and dca defense comm agency oops disa they just changed names do space work that s the point of all those defense comm sats but don t worry there are lots of jobs that need ditch digging somehow you ll end up there
sci.space	re end of the space age oddly enough the smithsonian calls the lindbergh years the golden age of flight i would call it the granite years reflecting the primitive nature of it it was romantic swashbuckling daredevils those daring young men in their flying machines but in reality it sucked death was a highly likely occurence and the environment blew ever see the early navy pressure suits they were modified diving suits you were ready to star in plan from outer space radios and nav aids were a joke and engines ran on castor oil they picked and called aviators men with iron stomachs and it wasn t due to vertigo oddly enough now we are in the golden age of flight i can hop the shuttle to ny for bucks now that s golden mercury gemini and apollo were romantic but let s be honest peeing in bags having plastic bags glued to your butt everytime you needed a bowel movement living for days inside a vw bug romantic but not commercial the dc x points out a most likely new golden age an age where fat cigar smoking business men in loud polyester space suits will fill the skys with strip malls and used space ship lots hhhmmmmm maybe i ll retract that golden age bit maybe it was better in the old days of course then we ll have wally schirra telling his great grand children in my day we walked on the moon every day miles no buses you kids got it soft pat
sci.space	a flawed propulsion system space shuttle for an essay i am writing about the space shuttle and a need for a better propulsion system through research i have found that it is rather clumsy i e all the checks tests before launch the safety hazards sitting on a hydrogen bomb etc if you have any beefs about the current space shuttle program re propulsion please send me your ideas thanks a lot terry ford aa freenet carleton ca nepean ontario canada
sci.space	re orion drive in vacuum how in article apr sfu ca leigh palmer palmer sfu ca writes a high explosive orion prototype flew in the atmosphere in san diego back in or i feel sure that someone must have film of that experiment and i d really like to see it has anyone out there seen it the national air space museum has both the prototype and the film when i was there some years ago they had the prototype on display and the film continuously repeating all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	re orbital repairstation in article c mtyj q well sf ca us collins well sf ca us steve collins writes the difficulties of a high isp otv include if you go solar you have to replace the arrays every trip with current technology you re assuming that go solar photovoltaic solar dynamic power turbo alternators doesn t have this problem it also has rather less air drag due to its higher efficiency which is a non trivial win for big solar plants at low altitude now you might have to replace the rest of the electronics fairly often unless you invest substantial amounts of mass in shielding nuclear power sources are strongly restricted by international treaty references such treaties have been proposed but as far as i know none of them has ever been negotiated or signed all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	re dc x update henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes the first flight will be a low hover that will demonstrate a vertical landing there will be no payload dc x will never carry any kind exactly when will the hover test be done and will any of the tv networks carry it i really want to see that john lussmyer dragon angus mi org mystery spot bbs royal oak mi
sci.space	re orion drive in vacuum how in article c ngxq zoo toronto edu henry spencer henry zoo toronto edu writes the national air space museum has both the prototype and the film when i was there some years ago they had the prototype on display and the film continuously repeating great i ll visit the national air and space museum at the end of the month with my wife who was also working at general atomic at the time once again netnews has enriched my life leigh
sci.space	re nasa wraps in article apr judy uh edu wingo cspara decnet fedex msfc nasa gov writes i don t care who told you this it is not generally true i see every single line item on a contract and i have to sign it there is no such thing as wrap at this university dennis i have worked on or written proposals worth tens of millions of customers included government including nasa for profit and non profit companies all expected a wrap usually called a fee much of the work involved allocating and costing the work of subcontractors the subcontractors where universities for profits non profits and even some of the nasa centers for the commercialization of space all charged fees as part of the work down the street is one of the nasa commercialization centers they charge a fee now i m sure your a competent engineer dennis but you clearly lack experience in several areas your posts show that you don t understand the importance of integration in large projects you also show a lack of understanding of costing efforts as shown by your belief that it is reasonable to charge incremental costs for everything this isn t a flame jsut a statement your employer does charge a fee you may not see it but you do sounds like they are adding it to their overhead rate go ask your costing people how much fee they add to a project i did they never heard of it but suggest that like our president did that any percentage number like this is included in the overhead well there you are dennis as i said they simply include the fee in their overhead many seoparate the fee since the fee structure can change depending on the customer no allen you did not you merely repeated allegations made by an employee of the overhead capital of nasa integration dennis isn t overhead nothing that reston does could not be dont better or cheaper at the other nasa centers where the work is going on dennis reston has been the only nasa agency working to reduce costs when wp was hemoraging out a billion the centers you love so much where doing their best to cover it up and ignore the problem reston was the only place you would find people actually interested in solving the problems and building a station kinda funny isn t it that someone who talks about a problem like this is at a place where everything is overhead when you have a bit more experience dennis you will realize that integration isn t overhead it is the single most important part of a successful large scale effort why did the space news artice point out that it was the congressionally demanded change that caused the problems methinks that you are being selective with the facts again the story you refer to said that some nasa people blamed it on congress suprise suprise the fact remains that it is the centers you support so much who covered up the overheads and wouldn t address the problems until the press published the story are you saying the reston managers where wrong to get nasa to address the overruns you approve of what the centers did to cover up the overruns if it takes four flights a year to resupply the station and you have a cost of million a flight then you pay billion a year you stated that your friend at reston said that with the current station they could resupply it for a billion a year if the wrap were gone this merely points out a blatent contridiction in your numbers that understandably you fail to see you should know dennis that nasa doesn t include transport costs for resuply that comes from the shuttle budget what they where saying is that operational costs could be cut in half plus transport sorry gang but i have a deadline for a satellite so someone else is going to have to do allen s math for him for a while i will have little chance to do so i do hope you can find the time to tell us just why it was wrong of reston to ask that the problems with wp be addressed allen lady astor sir if you were my husband i would poison your coffee w churchill madam if you were my wife i would drink it days to first flight of dcx
sci.space	re clementine mission name mark prado please go just one step further how has the word clementine been associated with mining old pioneer song from the s or so goes as follows in a cavern in a canyon excavating for a mine dwelt a miner forty niner and his daughter clementine chorus oh my darling oh my darling oh my darling clementine you are lost and gone forever oh my darling clementine i ve also had it explained but not confirmed from a reliable data source that clementine is an acronym something like combined lunar elemental mapper experiment on extended non terrestrial intercept near earth personally i think that acronym was made up to fit the name if it really is an acronym wales larrison space technology investor maximus wb
sci.space	space clipper launch article to all i thought the net would find this amusing from the march aero vision the newsletter for the employees of mcdonnell douglas aerospace at huntington beach california space clippers launched successfully on monday march at noon quest aerospace education inc launched two dc y space clippers in the mall near the cafeteria the first rocket was launched by dr bill gaubatz director and ssto program manager and the second by air force captain ed spalding who with staff sgt don gisburne represents air force space command which was requested by sdio to assess the dc x for potential military operational use both rocket launches were successful the first floated to the ground between the cafeteria and building and the second landed on the roof of the cafeteria quest s space clipper is the first flying model rocket of the mcdonnell douglas dc x the nd semi scale model of the mcdonnell douglas delta clipper has an estimated maximum altitude of feet the space clippers can be used in educational settings to teach mathematics and science as well as social studies and other applications the space clipper is available either in the space clipper outfit which includes everything needed for three launches or as individual rockets for each both are available through hobby shops or by calling by the way this is not an endorsement to buy the product nor is it an advertisement to buy the product i make no claims about the product this is posted for public information only hey i found it amusing and is merely a repeat of what was included in the mdssc huntington beach newsletter wales larrison space technology investor maximus wb
sci.space	lrdpa news many of you at this point have seen a copy of the lunar resources data purchase act by now this bill also known as the back to the moon bill would authorize the u s government to purchase lunar science data from private and non profit vendors selected on the basis of competitive bidding with an aggregate cap on bid awards of million if you have a copy of the bill and can t or don t want to go through all of the legalese contained in all federal legislation don t both you have a free resource to evaluate the bill for you your local congressional office listed in the phone book is staffed by people who can forward a copy of the bill to legal experts simply ask them to do so and to consider supporting the lunar resources data purchase act if you do get feedback negative or positive from your congressional office please forward it to david anderman e yorba linda blvd apt g fullerton ca or via e mail to david anderman ofa fidonet org another resource is your local chapter of the national space society members of the chapter will be happy to work with you to evaluate and support the back to the moon bill for the address and telephone number of the nearest chapter to you please send e mail or check the latest issue of ad astra in a library near you finally if you have requested and not received information about the back to the moon bill please re send your request the database for the bill was recently corrupted and some information was lost the authors of the bill thank you for your patience maximus wb
sci.space	re talking to boeing management about ssto type stuff from a shareholder perspective i might suggest giving the management some more mumble time by asking the very leading question in two or three parts what are your long term expectations of space market what projects specifically are they funding by internal funds and at what levels and what competition do you expect in this area this last point is always worth hitting upper management with gently if you want them to think and as hard as you can if you have a good case that there really is competion
sci.space	re venus lander for venus conditions i doubt there are good prospects for a self armoring system for venus surface conditions several hundred degrees very high pressure of co possibly sulfuric and nitric acids or oxides but it is a notion to consider for outer planets rs where you might pick up ices under less extream upper atmosphere conditions buying deeper penetration a nice creative idea unlikly but worthy of thinking about
sci.space	wanted optical shaft encoders for telescope also posted in misc forsale wanted misc wanted ne wanted ny wanted nj wanted wanted optical shaft encoders quantity single ended incremental needed to encode the movements of a cassegrain telescope the telescope is in the observatory of the univ of mass at boston the project is being managed by mr george tucker a graduate student at umb please call him or email call me if you have one or two of the specified type of encoder of course due to our low funding level we are looking for a price that is sufficiently lower than that given for new encoders george tucker me sugarman cs umb edu univ home standard disclaimer boston massachusetts usa
sci.space	re atlas revisited i found it very interesting that atlas depended on pressure to maintain tank geometry leads me to the question have any of the ssto concepts explored pressurized tankage such that the launch configuration would be significantly different from the reentry one i have long been facinated by pnumatic structures as conceived and built by frei otto and others a ballon tank ssto sounds very clever
sci.space	re what if the ussr had reached the moon first in article saundrsg qucdn queensu ca graydon saundrsg qucdn queensu ca writes this is turning into what s a moonbase good for and i ought not to post when i ve a hundred some odd posts to go but i would think that the real reason to have a moon base is economic since someone with space industry will presumeably have a much larger gnp than they would without space industry eventually they will simply be able to afford more stuff if i read you right you re saying in essence that with a larger economy nations will have more discretionary funds to waste on a lunar facility that was certainly partially the case with apollo but real lunar colonies will probably require a continuing military scientific or commercial reason for being rather than just a we have the money why not approach it s conceivable that luna will have a military purpose it s possible that luna will have a commercial purpose but it s most likely that luna will only have a scientific purpose for the next several hundred years at least therefore lunar bases should be predicated on funding levels little different from those found for antarctic bases can you put a person base on the moon for million a year even if you use grad students gary gary coffman ke zv you make it gatech wa mei ke zv gary destructive testing systems we break it uunet rsiatl ke zv gary shannon way guaranteed emory kd nc ke zv gary lawrenceville ga
sci.space	re army in space last i had heard because of budget and such the air farce is the only space command left the rest missions were generally given to the air farce probably a good reason for me to transfer from the army guard to the air guard i hate walking with a pack on my back and how do you put on your application for a job as a kitchen worker that you have done a lot of kp kitchen police michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked
sci.space	re shuttle launch question in article apr stdvax abdkw stdvax david ward writes in article c jlwx h cs cmu edu etrat ttacs ttu edu pack rat writes there has been something bothering me while watching nasa select for a while well i should nt say bothering maybe wondering would be better when they are going to launch they say sorry but i forget exactly who is saying what otc to plt i think clear caution warning memory verify no unexpected errors i am wondering what an expected error might be sorry if this is a really dumb question but in pure speculation i would guess cautions based on hazardous pre launch ops would qualify something like caution srbs have just been armed also in pure speculation parity errors in memory or previously known conditions that were waivered yes that is an error but we already knew about it any problem where they decided a backup would handle it any problem in an area that was not criticality that is any problem in a system they decided they could do without i d be curious as to what the real meaning of the quote is tom
sci.space	into infinity was re doppelganger was re vulcan in qkn rinnett mojo eng umd edu sysmgr king eng umd edu writes in article apr fnalf fnal gov higgins fnalf fnal gov bill higgins beam jockey writes this was known as journey to the far side of the sun in the united states and as doppelganger in the u k later they went on to do more live action sf series ufo and space the astronomy was lousy but the lifting body spacecraft vtol airliners and mighty portugese launch complex were wonderful to look at exactly some of the space effects remain first rate even today they recycled a lot of models and theme music for ufo some of the concepts even showed up in space later on the andersons tried to shed their reputation as creators of some of the worst pseudo scientific shows in tv history by flying into infinity this was a one off thing done as part of bbc s educational sf series the day after tomorrow the anderson episode dealt with a spaceship capable of reaching the speed of light lightship altares the four man crew eventually journeyed into a black hole and ended up on the far side of the galaxy i think i saw this as a year old back in and liked it very much but then again i was a fan of space so i guess i was easily satisfied in those days does anyone know if into infinity has been released on video i have some space shows on vhs and know that thunderbirds etc also are available in england marcu software engineering that s like military intelligence isn t it sysmgr cadlab eng umd edu
sci.space	re space debris there is a guy in nasa johnson space center that might answer your question i do not have his name right now but if you follow up i can dig that out for you keesler loftus potter stansbery kubriek
sci.space	orion test film is the film from the putt putt test vehicle which used conventional explosives as a proof of concept test or another one c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c nathan f wallace c c reality is c c e mail wallacen cs colostate edu c c ancient alphaean proverb c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c
sci.space	re japanese moon landing temporary orbit in article pgf srl cacs usl edu pgf srl cacs usl edu phil g fraering writes rls uihepa hep uiuc edu ray swartz oh that guy again writes the gravity maneuvering that was used was to exploit fuzzy regions these are described by the inventor as exploiting the second order perturbations in a three body system the probe was launched into this region for the earth moon sun system where the perturbations affected it in such a way as to allow it to go into lunar orbit without large expenditures of fuel to slow down the idea is that natural objects sometimes get captured without expending fuel we ll just find the trajectory that makes it possible the originator of the technique said that nasa wasn t interested but that japan was because their probe was small and couldn t hold a lot of fuel for deceleration i should probably re post this with another title so that the guys on the other thread would see that this is a practical use of temporary orbits another possible temporary orbit phil fraering seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff pgf srl cacs usl edu like how the ancient mayans had televison repo man if you are really interested in these orbits and how they are obtained you should try and find the following paper hiroshi yamakawa jun ichiro kawaguchi nobuaki ishii and hiroki matsuo a numerical study of gravitational capture orbit in the earth moon system aas aas aiaa spaceflight mechanics meeting colorado springs colorado the references included in this paper are quite interesting also and include several that are specific to the hiten mission itself steven davis daviss sweetpea jsc nasa gov o o db mcdonnell douglas i don t represent vv space systems company anybody but myself houston division
sci.space	re shuttle launch question from article c owcb n p world std com by tombaker world std com tom a baker in article c jlwx h cs cmu edu etrat ttacs ttu edu pack rat writes clear caution warning memory verify no unexpected errors i am wondering what an expected error might be sorry if this is a really dumb question but parity errors in memory or previously known conditions that were waivered yes that is an error but we already knew about it i d be curious as to what the real meaning of the quote is tom my understanding is that the expected errors are basically known bugs in the warning system software things are checked that don t have the right values in yet because they aren t set till after launch and suchlike rather than fix the code and possibly introduce new bugs they just tell the crew ok if you see a warning no before liftoff ignore it jonathan
sci.space	re nasp i have before me a pertinent report from the united states general accounting office national aero space plane restructuring future research and development efforts december report number gao nsiad in the back it lists the following related reports nasp key issues facing the program mar gao t nsiad aerospace plane technology r d efforts in japan and australia oct gao nsiad aerospace plane technology r d efforts in europe july gao nsiad aerospace technology technical data and information on foreign test facilities jun gao nsiad fs investment in foreign aerospace vehicle research and technological development efforts aug gao t nsiad nasp a technology development and demonstration program to build the x apr gao nsiad on the inside back cover under ordering information it says the first copy of each gao report is free orders may also be placed by calling dani dani eder meridian investment company w h rt box athens al location deg n deg w m alt
sci.space	dspse was why clementine the sdio has contracted with the nrl naval research laboratory to fly the clementine mission btw we call it dspse deep space project science experiment the nrl is building the spacecraft designing the detailed mission and doing the integration and operations with help from jpl goddard prob some folks i have left out don t be mad i am on the tamp trajectory analysis mission planning team and am responsable for the iv v of the traj that goddard csc are designing as for why sdio is doing it some of the reasons are the safety constraints are too tight to try to run the lidar in leo in leo we don t get any new radiation data on the sensors we will get that data on our passages through the van allen sp belts since we are going out there why not piggy back some general science the intercept problem is a lot easied over long distances and long times i am sure there are some things i have forgotten and some i haven t been told but those are the reasons we all talk about jim blackshear jib bonnie jsc nasa gov
sci.space	re comet in temporary orbit around jupiter can these questions be answered for a previous instance such as the gehrels that was mentioned in an earlier posting orbital elements of comet vii from dance files p au e i cap omega w epoch thanks for the information i assume p is the semi major axis and e the eccentricity the peri helion and aphelion are then given by p e and p e i e about and au respectively for jupiter they are and au if was after the temporary capture this means that the comet ended up in an orbit that comes no closer than au to jupiter s which i take to be a rough indication of how far from jupiter it could get under jupiter s influence also perihelions of gehrels were april jupiter radii august jupiter radii where jupiter radius km mi au so the figure seems unlikely to actually be anything but a perijove is that the case for the figure as well mark brader softquad inc toronto remember the golgafrinchans utzoo sq msb msb sq com pete granger this article is in the public domain
sci.space	re into infinity was re doppelganger was re vulcan in article apr abo fi mlindroos finabo abo fi marcus lindroos inf writes later on the andersons tried to shed their reputation as creators of some of the worst pseudo scientific shows in tv history by flying into infinity this was a one off thing done as part of bbc s educational sf series the day after tomorrow the anderson episode dealt with a spaceship capable of reaching the speed of light lightship altares the four man crew eventually journeyed into a black hole and ended up on the far side of the galaxy i think i saw this as a year old back in and liked it very much but then again i was a fan of space so i guess i was easily satisfied in those days wow i was beginning to think that i had made that up i remember that movie it was about hours long i don t think they ended up anywhere in the known universe i remember they got a message halfway out to proxima centauri that earth transmitted a day after they launched timed to catch up with them at the halfway point i thought it was neat i think i was all of at the time does anyone know if into infinity has been released on video i have some space shows on vhs and know that thunderbirds etc also are available in england space has just come out with episodes released in american stores i will look for the into infinity show i never did know that was the name of it i thought the show was called the day after tomorrow and that was it if you blow fire against the wind take care to not get the smoke in your eyes big growly dragon monster bafta cats ucsc edu shari brooks brooks anarchy arc nasa gov the above opinions are solely my own
sci.space	why not give billion to first year long moon residents with the continuin talk about the end of the space age and complaints by government over the large cost why not try something i read about that might just work announce that a reward of billion would go to the first corporation who successfully keeps at least person alive on the moon for a year then you d see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin to be developed there d be a different kind of space race then gene theporch raider net gene wright theporch raider net the macinteresteds of nashville
sci.space	navstar positions i ve just read richard langley s latest navstar gps constellation status it states that the latest satellite was placed in orbit plane position c there is already one satellite in that position i know that it s almost ten years since that satellite was launched but it s still in operation so why not use it until it goes off why not instead place the new satellite at b since that position is empty and by this measure have an almost complete gps constellation out of thomas ericsson telecom stockholm sweden thomas enblom just another employee
sci.space	buzz aldrin s race into space has anyone heard of or played buzz aldrin s race into space does anyone know when it is expected to be released thanx tom
sci.space	diaspar virtual reality network announcement posted to the internet by wmiler nyx cs du edu david the lunar tele operation model one ltm by david h mitchell march introduction in order to increase public interest in space based and lunar operations a real miniature lunar like environment is being constructed on which to test tele operated models these models are remotely controlled by individuals located world wide using their personal computers for edutainment purposes not only does this provide a test bed for simple tele operation and tele presence activities but it also provides for the sharing of information on methods of operating in space including but not limited to layout of a lunar colony tele operating machines for work and play disseminating educational information providing contests and awards for creativity and achievement and provides a new way for students worldwide to participate in twenty first century remote learning methods because of the nature of the ltm project people of all ages interests and skills can contribute scenery and murals models and structures interfacing and electronics software and graphics in operation ltm is an evolving playground and laboratory that can be used by children students and professionals worldwide using a personal computer at home or a terminal at a participating institution a user is able to tele operate real models at the ltm base for experimental or recreational purposes because a real facility exists ample opportunity is provided for media coverage of the construction of the lunar model its operation and new features to be added as suggested by the users themselves this has broad inherent interest for a wide range of groups tele operations and virtual reality research radio control model railroad and ham radio operation astronomy and space planetariums and science centers art and theater bbs and online network users software and game developers manufacturers and retailers of model rockets cars and trains children the child in all of us ltm overall design a room feet by feet contains the base lunar layout the walls are used for murals of distant moon mountains star fields and a view of the earth the floor is the simulated lunar surface a global call for contributions is hereby made for material for the lunar surface and for the design and creation of scale models of lunar colony elements scenery and machine lets the ltm initial design has tele operated machinelets an ssto scale model which will be able to lift off hover and land a bulldozerlet which will be able to move about in a quarry area and a moon train which will traverse most of the simulated lunar surface each machinelet has a small tv camera utilizing a ccd tv chip mounted on it a personal computer digitizes the image including reducing picture content and doing data compression to allow for minimal images to be sent to the operator for control purposes and also return control signals the first machinelet to be set up will be the moon train since model trains with tv cameras built in are almost off the shelf items and control electronics for starting and stopping a train are minimal the user will receive an image once every to seconds depending on the speed of their data link to ltm next an ssto scale model with a ccd tv chip will be suspended from a servo motor operated wire frame mounted on the ceiling allowing for the ssto to be controlled by the operator to take off hover over the entire lunar landscape and land finally some tank models will be modified to be ccd tv chip equipped bulldozerlets the entire initial ltm will allow remote operators worldwide to receive minimal images while actually operating models for landing and takeoff traveling and doing work the entire system is based on commercially available items and parts that can be easily obtained except for the interface electronics which is well within the capability of many advanced ham radio operator and computer hardware software developers by taking a graphically oriented communications program dmodem and adding a tele operations screen and controls the necessary user interface can be provided in under man hours plan of action the diaspar virtual reality network has agreed to sponsor this project by providing a host computer network and internet access to that network diaspar is providing the foot by foot facility for actual construction of the lunar model diaspar has in stock the electronic tanks that can be modified and one ccd tv chip diaspar also agrees to provide rail stock for the lunar train model diaspar will make available the dmodem graphical communications package and modify it for control of the machines lets an initial ground breaking with miniature shovels will be performed for a live photo session and news conference on april the initial models will be put in place a time lapse record will be started for historical purposes it is not expected that this event will be completely serious or solemn the lunar colony will be declared open for additional building operations and experiments a photographer will be present and the photographs taken will be converted to gif images for distribution world wide to major online networks and bbs s a press release will be issued calling for contributions of ideas time talent materials and scale models for the simulated lunar colony a contest for new designs and techniques for working on the moon will then be announced universities will be invited to participate the goal being to find instructors who wish to have class participation in various aspects of the lunar colony model field trips to ltm can be arranged and at that time the results of the class work will be added to the model contributors will then be able to tele operate any contributed machine lets once they return to their campus a monthly ltm newsletter will be issued both electronically online and via conventional means to the media any major new tele operated equipment addition will be marked with an invitation to the television news media having a large real model space colony will be a very attractive photo opportunity for the television community especially since the action will be controlled by people all over the world science fiction writers will be invited to issue challenges to engineering and human factors students at universities to build and operate the tele operated equipment to perform lunar tasks using counter weight and pulley systems gravity may be simulated to some extent to try various traction challenges the long term goal is creating world wide interest education experimentation and remote operation of a lunar colony ltm has the potential of being a long term global edutainment method for space activities and may be the generic example of how to teach and explore in many other subject areas not limited to space edutainment all of this facilitates the kind of spirit which can lead to a generation of people who are ready for the leap to the stars conclusion edutainment is the blending of education and entertainment anyone who has ever enjoyed seeing miniatures will probably see the potential impact of a globally available layout for recreation education and experimentation purposes by creating a tele operated model lunar colony we not only create world wide publicity but also a method of trying new ideas that require real not virtual skills and open a new method for putting people s minds in space moonlighters illuminating the path of knowledge about space and lunar development the following people are already engaged in various parts of this work david rob dash hyson jzer vril wyatt the dark one tiggertoo the mad hatter sir robin jogden come join the discussion any friday night from to midnight pst in diaspar virtual reality network ideas welcome internet telnet to or diaspar com voice bd bd email inquiries to ltm project leader jzer hydra unm edu or directly to jzer on diaspar
sci.space	re orion drive in vacuum how leigh palmer palmer sfu ca writes i feel sure that someone must have film of that experiment and i d really like to see it has anyone out there seen it i ve seen a film of it my memory may be faulty but as i remember it the vehicle was slightly over a meter long with a thick baseplate cm in diameter i think the narrative said it was propelled by dynamite sticks there were four detonations within about s the second coming after about m of flight in max altitude seemed to be on the order of m but that is hard to judge urban fredriksson urf icl se
sci.space	re comet in temporary orbit around jupiter in article apr sq sq com msb sq sq com mark brader writes can these questions be answered for a previous instance such as the gehrels that was mentioned in an earlier posting orbital elements of comet vii from dance files p au e i cap omega w epoch also perihelions of gehrels were april jupiter radii august jupiter radii where jupiter radius km mi au so the figure seems unlikely to actually be anything but a perijove is that the case for the figure as well sorry perijoves i m not used to talking this language john garland jgarland kean ucs mun ca
sci.space	re orbital repairstation in article c hcbo joy zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes the biggest problem with this is that all orbits are not alike it can actually be more expensive to reach a satellite from another orbit than from the ground but with cheaper fuel from space based sources it will be cheaper to reach more orbits than from the ground also remember that the presence of a repair supply facility adds value to the space around it if you can put your satellite in an orbit where it can be reached by a ready source of supply you can make it cheaper and gain benefit from economies of scale allen lady astor sir if you were my husband i would poison your coffee w churchill madam if you were my wife i would drink it days to first flight of dcx
sci.space	re nasa wraps in article apr iti org aws iti org allen w sherzer writes in article apr judy uh edu wingo cspara decnet fedex msfc nasa gov writes i don t care who told you this it is not generally true i see every single line item on a contract and i have to sign it there is no such thing as wrap at this university dennis i have worked on or written proposals worth tens of millions of customers included government including nasa for profit and non profit companies all expected a wrap usually called a fee much of the work involved allocating and costing the work of subcontractors the subcontractors where universities for profits non profits and even some of the nasa centers for the commercialization of space all charged fees as part of the work down the street is one of the nasa commercialization centers they charge a fee you totally forgot the original post that you posted allen in that post you stated that the wrap was on top of and in addition to any overhead geez in this post you finally admit that this is not true now i m sure your a competent engineer dennis but you clearly lack experience in several areas your posts show that you don t understand the importance of integration in large projects you also show a lack of understanding of costing efforts as shown by your belief that it is reasonable to charge incremental costs for everything this isn t a flame jsut a statement come your little ol buns down here and you will find out who is doing what and who is working on integration this is simply an ad hominum attack and you know it your employer does charge a fee you may not see it but you do of course there is a fee it is for administration geez allen any organization has costs but there is a heck of a difference in legitimate costs such as libraries and other things that must be there to support a program and wrap as you originally stated it you stated that wrap was on top of all of the overhead which a couple of sentences down you say is not true which is it allen sounds like they are adding it to their overhead rate go ask your costing people how much fee they add to a project i did they never heard of it but suggest that like our president did that any percentage number like this is included in the overhead well there you are dennis as i said they simply include the fee in their overhead many seoparate the fee since the fee structure can change depending on the customer as you have posted on this subject allen you state that wrap is over and above overhead and is a seperate charge you admit here that this is wrong nasa has a line item budget every year i have seen it allen get some numbers from that detailed nasa budget and dig out the wrap numbers and then howl to high heaven about it until you do that you are barking in the wind no allen you did not you merely repeated allegations made by an employee of the overhead capital of nasa integration dennis isn t overhead nothing that reston does could not be dont better or cheaper at the other nasa centers where the work is going on integration could be done better at the centers apollo integration was done here at msfc and that did not turn out so bad the philosophy of reston is totally wrong allen there you have a bunch of people who are completely removed from the work that they are trying to oversee there is no way that will ever work it has never worked in any large scale project that it was ever tried on could you imagine a reston like set up for apollo dennis reston has been the only nasa agency working to reduce costs when wp was hemoraging out a billion the centers you love so much where doing their best to cover it up and ignore the problem reston was the only place you would find people actually interested in solving the problems and building a station oh you are full of it allen on this one i agree that jsc screwed up big they should be responsible for that screw up and the people that caused it replaced to make a stupid statement like that just shows how deep your bias goes come to msfc for a couple of weeks and you will find out just how wrong you really are maybe not people like you believe exactly what they want to believe no matter what the facts are contrary to it kinda funny isn t it that someone who talks about a problem like this is at a place where everything is overhead when you have a bit more experience dennis you will realize that integration isn t overhead it is the single most important part of a successful large scale effort i agree that integration is the single most important part of a successful large scale effort what i completly disagree with is seperating that integration function from the people that are doing the work it is called leadership allen that is what made apollo work final responsibility for the success of apollo was held by less than people that is leadership and responsibility there is neither when you have any organization set up as reston is you could take the same people and move them to jsc or msfc and they could do a much better job why did it take a year for reston to finally say something about the problem if they were on site and part of the process then the problem would have never gotten out of hand in the first place there is one heck of a lot i do not know allen but one thing i do know is that for a project to be successful you must have leadership i remember all of the turn over at reston that kept ssf program in shambles for years do you it is lack of responsibility and leadership that is the programs problem lack of leadership from the white house congress and at reston nasa is only a symptom of a greater national problem you are so narrowly focused in your efforts that you do not see this why did the space news artice point out that it was the congressionally demanded change that caused the problems methinks that you are being selective with the facts again the story you refer to said that some nasa people blamed it on congress suprise suprise the fact remains that it is the centers you support so much who covered up the overheads and wouldn t address the problems until the press published the story are you saying the reston managers where wrong to get nasa to address the overruns you approve of what the centers did to cover up the overruns no i am saying that if they were located at jsc it never would have happened in the first place if it takes four flights a year to resupply the station and you have a cost of million a flight then you pay billion a year you stated that your friend at reston said that with the current station they could resupply it for a billion a year if the wrap were gone this merely points out a blatent contridiction in your numbers that understandably you fail to see you should know dennis that nasa doesn t include transport costs for resuply that comes from the shuttle budget what they where saying is that operational costs could be cut in half plus transport sorry gang but i have a deadline for a satellite so someone else is going to have to do allen s math for him for a while i will have little chance to do so i do hope you can find the time to tell us just why it was wrong of reston to ask that the problems with wp be addressed i have the time to reitereate one more timet that if the leadership that is at reston was on site at jsc the problem never would have happened totally ignoring the lack of leadership of congress this many headed hydra that has grown up at nasa is the true problem of the agency and to try to change the question to suit you and your bias is only indicative of your position dennis university of alabama in huntsville
sci.space	re biosphere ii in q kia gg access digex net pat writes in article almaden ibm com nicho vnet ibm com writes in q ud ji access digex net pat writes why is everyone being so critical of b because it s bogus science promoted as real science it seems to me that it s sorta a large engineering project more then a science project bingo b is not bench science but rather a large scale attempt to re create a series of micro ecologies what s so eveil about this nothing evil at all there s no actual harm in what they re doing only how they represent it sig files are like strings every yo yo s got one greg nicholls nicho vnet ibm com business or nicho olympus demon co uk private
sci.space	re biosphere ii in q ku av access digex net pat writes the work is privately funded the data belongs to sbv i don t see either george or fred scoriating ibm research division for not releasing data we publish plenty kiddo you just have to look sig files are like strings every yo yo s got one greg nicholls nicho vnet ibm com business or nicho olympus demon co uk private
sci.space	re sixty two thousand was re how many read sci space in article apr fnalf fnal gov higgins fnalf fnal gov bill higgins beam jockey writes reid alas gives us no measure of the power influence of readers sorry mark i think i can largely as a result of efforts by people reading this group writing letters and making phone calls the following has happened nasa reprogrammed funds to keep nasp alive in efforts to kill dc x and the ssrt progam where twice twarted feb and june of last year gouldin kept his job in spite of heavy lobbying against him this may not be what mark was thinking of but it shows that the readers of sci space do have power and influence allen lady astor sir if you were my husband i would poison your coffee w churchill madam if you were my wife i would drink it days to first flight of dcx
sci.space	re astronomy program in article galaxy ucr edu datadec ucrengr ucr edu kevin marcus writes are there any public domain or shareware astronomy programs which will map out the sky at any given time and allow you to locate planets nebulae and so forth if so is there any ftp site where i can get one there are several star map programs available your job is to choose that you like try anonymous ftp from ftp funet fi pub astro pc stars pc solar mac amiga atari regards veikko
sci.space	re what if the ussr had reached the moon first in article apr ke zv uucp gary ke zv uucp gary coffman writes in article saundrsg qucdn queensu ca graydon saundrsg qucdn queensu ca writes this is turning into what s a moonbase good for and i ought not to post when i ve a hundred some odd posts to go but i would think that the real reason to have a moon base is economic since someone with space industry will presumeably have a much larger gnp than they would without space industry eventually they will simply be able to afford more stuff if i read you right you re saying in essence that with a larger economy nations will have more discretionary funds to waste on a lunar facility that was certainly partially the case with apollo but real lunar colonies will probably require a continuing military scientific or commercial reason for being rather than just a we have the money why not approach ah but the whole point is that money spent on a lunar base is not wasted on the moon it s not like they d be using r bills to fuel their moon dozers the money to fund a lunar base would be spent in the country to which the base belonged it s a way of funding high tech research just like darpa was a good excuse to fund various fields of research under the pretense that it was crucial to the defense of the country or like esprit is a good excuse for the ec to fund research under the pretense that it s good for pan european cooperation now maybe you think that government funded research is a waste of money in fact i m pretty sure you do but it does count as investment spending which does boost the economy and just look at the size of that multiplier nick haines nickh cmu edu
sci.space	re shuttle launch question in article apr head cfa harvard edu jcm head cfa harvard edu jonathan mcdowell writes my understanding is that the expected errors are basically known bugs in the warning system software things are checked that don t have the right values in yet because they aren t set till after launch and suchlike rather than fix the code and possibly introduce new bugs they just tell the crew ok if you see a warning no before liftoff ignore it good grief and i thought the shuttle software was known for being well engineered if this is actually the case every member of the programming team should be taken out and shot given that i ve heard the shuttle software rated as level in maturity i strongly doubt that this is the case nick haines nickh cmu edu
sci.space	re why not give billion to first year long moon residents gene wright gene theporch raider net wrote announce that a reward of billion would go to the first corporation who successfully keeps at least person alive on the moon for a year then you d see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin to be developed there d be a different kind of space race then i m an advocate of this idea for funding space station work and i throw around the billion figure for that reward i suggest that you increase the lunar reward to about billion this would encourage private industry to invest in space which should be one of nasa s primary goals ken jenks nasa jsc gm space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov better faster cheaper daniel s goldin nasa administrator
sci.space	re orion drive in vacuum how in article apr sfu ca leigh palmer palmer sfu ca writes in article c ngxq zoo toronto edu henry spencer henry zoo toronto edu writes the national air space museum has both the prototype and the film when i was there some years ago they had the prototype on display and the film continuously repeating great i ll visit the national air and space museum at the end of the month with my wife who was also working at general atomic at the time once again netnews has enriched my life sorry to put a damper on your plans but i was there three weeks ago and it wasn t there not that i would have known to look for it of course but i combed the space exhibits pretty thoroughly and something like that would have caught my attention instantly this is news this is your peter scott nasa jpl caltech brain on news any questions pjs euclid jpl nasa gov
sci.space	vast bandwidth over runs on nasa thread was re nasa wraps in article apr judy uh edu dennis writes about a zillion lines in response to article apr iti org in which allen wrote a zillion lines in response to article apr judy uh edu in which dennis wrote another zillion lines in response to allen hey can it you guys take it to email or talk politics space or alt flame or alt music pop will eat itself the poppies are on patrol or anywhere but this is sci space this thread lost all scientific content many moons ago nick haines nickh cmu edu
sci.space	re orion drive in vacuum how in article quh innf elroy jpl nasa gov pjs euclid jpl nasa gov writes the national air space museum has both the prototype and the film when i was there some years ago they had the prototype on display great i ll visit the national air and space museum at the end of the month sorry to put a damper on your plans but i was there three weeks ago and it wasn t there not that i would have known to look for it of course but i combed the space exhibits pretty thoroughly and something like that would have caught my attention instantly it wasn t especially prominent as i recall however quite possibly it s no longer on display nasm like most museums has much more stuff than it can display at once and does rotate the displays occasionally all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	conference on manned lunar exploration may crystal city aw st had a brief blurb on a manned lunar exploration confernce may th at crystal city virginia under the auspices of aiaa does anyone know more about this how much to attend anyone want to go pat
sci.space	space clippers launched space clippers launched successfully when i first saw this i thought for a second that it was a headline from the star about the pliers found in the srb recently y know sometimes they have wire cutters built in tommy mac tom mcwilliams wk as the radius of vision increases tm ibm cl msu edu hm the circumference of mystery grows
sci.space	magellan update forwarded from doug griffith magellan project manager magellan status report april the magellan mission at venus continues normally gathering gravity data which provides measurement of density variations in the upper mantle which can be correlated to surface topography spacecraft performance is nominal magellan has completed orbits of venus and is now days from the end of cycle and the start of the transition experiment no significant activities are expected next week as preparations for aerobraking continue on schedule on monday morning april the moon will occult venus and interrupt the tracking of magellan for about minutes ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab m s telos the aweto from new zealand pasadena ca is part caterpillar and part vegetable
sci.space	space class for teachers near chicago i am posting this for a friend without internet access please inquire to the phone number and address listed space teaching s newest frontier sponsored by the planetary studies foundation the planetary studies foundation is sponsoring a one week class for teachers called space teaching s newest frontier the class will be held at the sheraton suites in elk grove illinois from june through june participants who complete the program can earn two semester hours of graduate credit from aurora college please note that while the class is intended for teachers it is not restricted to teachers the class which is being cosponsored by the united states space foundation will teach how to use space exploration as a teaching tool to get students excited about learning and interested in science classroom topics to be covered by the class include living in space the space shuttle the space station nasa spinoffs that benefit society principles of astrodynamics aeronautics the solar system there will also be simulated zero g training in an underwater space station simulation model rocket launches observing sessions at the harper college observatory and field trips to the adler planetarium and the museum of science and industry featured speakers include jerry brown of the colorado based united states space foundation and debbie brown of the nasa lewis research center in cleveland ohio additional instructors will be provided by the planetary studies foundation the social highlight of the class will be a dinner banquet featuring space shuttle payload specialist byron lichtenberg currently president of payload systems inc lichtenberg was a member of the crew of sts which flew in november the banquet is scheduled for thursday june the registration fee includes transportation for field trips materials continental breakfasts lunches and the special dinner banquet guest tickets for the dinner banquet are also available there is an additional charge to receive the two hours of graduate credit for any additional information about the class contact the science learning center at or write to planetary studies foundation w algonquin rd palatine il dennis newkirk dennisn ecs comm mot com motorola land mobile products sector schaumburg il
sci.space	re soviet space book i have received my copies of cosmonautics and cosmonautics as well as soviet space and space station mir handbook from aerospace ambassadors with no problem i m getting ready to fax them some material in huntsville and i ll include a printout of your inquiry george hastings ghasting vdoe vak ed edu space science teacher compuserve com if it s not mathematics science center stareach bbs fun it s hartman street office probably not richmond va fax science
sci.space	re space on other nets we run spacenews views on our stareach bbs a local operation running wwiv software with the capability to link to over other bbs s in the u s a and canada through wwivnet having just started this a couple of months ago our sub us currently subscribed by only about ten other boards but more are being added we get our news articles re on internet via ftp from nasa sites and from a variety of aerospace related periodicals we get a fair amount of questions on space topics from students who access the system george hastings ghasting vdoe vak ed edu space science teacher compuserve com if it s not mathematics science center stareach bbs fun it s hartman street office probably not richmond va fax science
sci.space	re why not give billion to first year long moon residents in article zv b w w theporch raider net gene theporch raider net gene wright writes with the continuin talk about the end of the space age and complaints by government over the large cost why not try something i read about that might just work announce that a reward of billion would go to the first corporation who successfully keeps at least person alive on the moon for a year then you d see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin to be developed there d be a different kind of space race then gene theporch raider net gene wright theporch raider net the macinteresteds of nashville if that were true i d go for it i have a few friends who we could pool our resources and do it maybe make it a prize kind of liek the solar car race in australia anybody game for a contest michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked
sci.space	re why not give billion to first year long moon residents in article apr aio jsc nasa gov kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov writes gene wright gene theporch raider net wrote announce that a reward of billion would go to the first corporation who successfully keeps at least person alive on the moon for a year then you d see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin to be developed there d be a different kind of space race then i m an advocate of this idea for funding space station work and i throw around the billion figure for that reward i suggest that you increase the lunar reward to about billion this would encourage private industry to invest in space which should be one of nasa s primary goals ken jenks nasa jsc gm space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov better faster cheaper daniel s goldin nasa administrator also would maybe get the russians involved after all they do have the resources to do it in part but they need the capital and the goal i wonder if renting the russians resources would be a disqualification michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked
sci.space	re space debris there is this buy at nasa langley yes give me his name i would greatly appreciate it rich the earth is a cradle of the mind but we cannot live forever in a cradle k e tsiolkovski father of russian astronautics
sci.space	re conference on manned lunar exploration may crystal city prb access digex com pat writes aw st had a brief blurb on a manned lunar exploration confernce may th at crystal city virginia under the auspices of aiaa does anyone know more about this how much to attend anyone want to go pat i got something in the mail from aiaa about it cost is speakers include john pike hohn young and ian pryke
sci.space	re conference on manned lunar exploration may crystal city in article quule re access digex net prb access digex com pat writes aw st had a brief blurb on a manned lunar exploration confernce may th at crystal city virginia under the auspices of aiaa does anyone know more about this how much to attend anyone want to go pat here are some selected excerpts of the invitation registration form they sent me retyped without permission all typo s are mine low cost lunar access a one day conference to explore the means and benefits of a rejuvenated human lunar program friday may hyatt regency crystal city hotel arlington va about the conference the low cost lunar access conference will be a forum for the exchange of ideas on how to initiate and structure an affordable human lunar program inherent in such low cost programs is the principle that they be implemented rapidly and meet their objectives within a short time frame more deleted conference program preliminary in the washington room a m opening remarks dr alan m lovelace a m keynote address mr brian dailey a m u s policy outlook john pike american federation of scientists a discussion of the prospects for the introduction of a new low cost lunar initiative in view of the uncertain direction the space program is taking noon morning plenary sessions presentations on architectures systems and operational concepts emphasis will be on mission approaches that produce significant advancements beyond apollo yet are judged to be affordable in the present era of severely constrained budgets in the potomac room p m lunch guest speaker mr john w young nasa special assistant and former astronaut in the washington room p m international policy outlook ian pryke invited esa washington office the prevailing situation with respect to international space commitments with insights into preconditions for european entry into new agreements as would be required for a cooperative lunar program p m afternoon plenary sessions presentations on scientific objectives benefits and applications emphasis will be placed on the scientific and technological value of a lunar program and its timeliness there is a registration form and the fee is us the mail address is american institute of aeronautics and astronautics dept no washington dc and the fax no is or it says you can register on site during the aiaa annual meeting and on friday morning may from sounds interesting too bad i can t go steven davis daviss sweetpea jsc nasa gov o o db mcdonnell douglas i don t represent vv space systems company anybody but myself houston division
sci.space	space station radio commercial a brief political cultural item radio station wgms in washington is a classical music station with a large audience among high officials elected and otherwise imagine a radio station that advertises mercedes benzes diamond jewelry expensive resorts and truthfully trident submarines this morning i heard a commercial for the space station project didn t catch the advertiser guess they re pulling out all the stops chuck divine
sci.space	science news article on federal r d just a pointer to the article in the current science news article on federal r d funding very briefly all r d is being shifted to gaining current competitive advantage from things like military and other work that does not have as much commercial utility chuck divine
sci.space	re why not give billion to first year long moon residents in article apr aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes in article zv b w w theporch raider net gene theporch raider net gene wright writes with the continuin talk about the end of the space age and complaints by government over the large cost why not try something i read about that might just work announce that a reward of billion would go to the first corporation who successfully keeps at least person alive on the moon for a year then you d see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin to be developed there d be a different kind of space race then gene theporch raider net gene wright theporch raider net the macinteresteds of nashville if that were true i d go for it i have a few friends who we could pool our resources and do it maybe make it a prize kind of liek the solar car race in australia anybody game for a contest michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked oh gee a billion dollars that d be just about enough to cover the cost of the feasability study happy happy joy joy peter f schaefer
sci.space	last call s w wizard position at tandem cupertino ca well we got some responses and are doing some interviews with interesting responders however just in case the other posting was overlooked by an incredibly talented person mea culpa for posting this here for mike but we re looking for someone special tandem computers is currently looking for a software wizard to help us architect implement a fault tolerant generalized instrumentation subsystem as part of our proprietary operating system kernel tns kernel the tns kernel is a proprietary loosely coupled parallel message based operating system the tns kernel has wide connectivity to open standards in this key individual contributor role you will work with other developers working on various components of the transaction management facility your background needs to encompass some of the following categories of would be excellent category math working knowledge of statistics real analysis as used in experimental physics or chemistry or in engineering category working knowledge of telemetry issues i e time series autocorrelation and statistical correlation of data streams category integration test instrumentation of systems under test i e payloads flight modules etc category software engineering programming skills algorithms and systems software techniques please send your resume to mike fleice tandem computers ridgeview ct loc cupertino ca fax or e mail fleice mike tandem com
sci.space	re conference on manned lunar exploration may crystal city in article apr aio jsc nasa gov daviss sweetpea jsc nasa gov s f davis writes in article quule re access digex net prb access digex com pat writes aw st had a brief blurb on a manned lunar exploration confernce may th at crystal city virginia under the auspices of aiaa does anyone know more about this how much to attend here are some selected excerpts of the invitation registration form they sent me retyped without permission all typo s are mine thanks for typing that in steven sounds like a fall back and regroup strategy session i wanted to add that my copy of the brochure arrived with a flattering cover letter invitations are being extended to those who have demonstrated a strong committment to space program development and have been influential in its advancement we sincerely hope you will be able to attend wow i wonder which of my contributions to the conquest of space convinced them to send me this letter i hope you decide to go pat the net can use some eyes and ears there bill higgins if we can put a man on the moon why can t fermilab we put a man on the moon bill engfer higgins fnal fnal gov if we can put a man on the moon why can t higgins fnal bitnet we put a woman on the moon bill higgins
sci.space	re science news article on federal r d in article c r dk skates gsfc nasa gov xrcjd resolve gsfc nasa gov charles j divine writes just a pointer to the article in the current science news article on federal r d funding very briefly all r d is being shifted to gaining current competitive advantage from things like military and other work that does not have as much commercial utility chuck divine gulp disclaimer this opinion is mine and does not represent the views of fermilab universities research association the department of energy or the th ward regular science fiction organization o zap bill higgins fermi national accelerator laboratory bitnet higgins fnal bitnet internet higgins fnal fnal gov span hepnet higgins
sci.space	re space debris keesler loftus potter stansbery kubriek i gues it is keesler the others do not ring the bell but they might be involved as well sometime ago keesler was here at langley teaching a course on space debris and if my memory does not fai l i think there was even a reference to a book on the subject c o egalon larc nasa gov claudio oliveira egalon
sci.space	re cold gas tanks for sounding rockets in article eagle ukc ac uk rdl ukc ac uk r d lorenz writes does anyone know how to size cold gas roll control thruster tanks for sounding rockets well first you work out how much cold gas you need then make the tanks big enough our sounding rocket payload with telemetry guidance etc etc and a telescope cluster weighs around pounds it uses freon jets for steering and a pulse width modulated controller for alignment ie during our eight minutes in space the jets are pretty much continuously firing on a duty cycle or so the jets also need to kill residual angular momentum from the spin stabilization and flip the payload around to look at the sun we have two freon tanks each holding liters of freon i m speaking only from memory of the last flight the ground crew at wsmr choose how much freon to use based on some black magic algorithm they have extra tank modules that just bolt into the payload stack this should give you an idea of the order of magnitude for cold gas quantity if you really need to know send me email and i ll try to get you in touch with our ground crew people cheers craig don t drink soap dilute dilute ok
sci.space	stereo pix of planets can anyone tell me where i might find stereo images of planetary and planetary satellite surfaces gifs preferred but any will do i m especially interested in stereos of the surfaces of phobos deimos mars and the moon in that order thanks
sci.space	re why not give billion to first year long moon residents in article zv b w w theporch raider net gene theporch raider net gene wright writes announce that a reward of billion would go to the first corporation who successfully keeps at least person alive on the moon for a year and with b on offer the problem of keeping them alive is highly likely to involve more than just the lunar environment oh dear my freighter just landed on the roof of acme s base and they all died how sad gosh that leaves us as the oldest residents quick boss the slime from yoyodyne are back and this time they ve got a tank man the guns one could imagine all sorts of technologies being developed in that sort of environment greg i m kidding btw although the problem of winner takes all prizes is that it encourages all sorts of undesirable behaviour witness military procurement programs and b is probably far too small a reward to encourage what would be a very expensive and high risk proposition gregory bond gnb bby com au burdett buckeridge young ltd melbourne australia knox s is slick fox in sox on knox s box knox s box is very quick plays lots of lsl he s sick apologies to john iron bar mackin
sci.space	re conference on manned lunar exploration may crystal city prb access digex com pat writes aw st had a brief blurb on a manned lunar exploration confernce may th at crystal city virginia under the auspices of aiaa does anyone know more about this how much to attend a good summary has been posted thanks but i wanted to add another comment i remeber reading the comment that general dynamics was tied into this in connection with their proposal for an early manned landing sorry i don t rember where i heard this but i m fairly sure it was somewhere reputable anyone else know anything on this angle hrumph they didn t send me anything josh hopkins jbh uxa cso uiuc edu find a way or make one attributed to hannibal
sci.space	re biosphere ii in article almaden ibm com nicho vnet ibm com writes in q ku av access digex net pat writes the work is privately funded the data belongs to sbv i don t see either george or fred scoriating ibm research division for not releasing data we publish plenty kiddo you just have to look never said you didn t publish merely that there is data you don t publish and that no one scoriates you for those cases ibm research publishes plenty it s why you ended up with nobel prizes in the last years but that some projects are deemed company confidential att bell labs keeps lots of stuff private like karamankars algorithm private moeny is entitled to do what it pleases within the bounds of law and for all the keepers of the temple of science should please shove their pointy little heads up their conically shaped posterior orifices pat who just read the sa article on karl fehrabend sp
sci.space	help i need some addresses hi all i m trying to get mailing addresses for the following companies specifically i need addresses for their personnel offices or like bureau the companies are amroc orbital sciences corp sp spacehab inc i know this one is somewhere in seattle wa or at least part of it is space industries inc somewhere in houston space enterprises inc if anybody could point me in the right direction on this i would be most appreciative i prefer an email response but i will post a summary if sufficient interest exists thanks mitch jmcocker eos ncsu edu
sci.space	re why not give billion to first year long moon residents in article apr bby com au gnb leo bby com au gregory n bond writes in article zv b w w theporch raider net gene theporch raider net gene wright writes announce that a reward of billion would go to the first corporation who successfully keeps at least person alive on the moon for a year and with b on offer the problem of keeping them alive is highly likely to involve more than just the lunar environment oh dear my freighter just landed on the roof of acme s base and they all died how sad gosh that leaves us as the oldest residents quick boss the slime from yoyodyne are back and this time they ve got a tank man the guns one could imagine all sorts of technologies being developed in that sort of environment greg i m kidding btw although the problem of winner takes all prizes is that it encourages all sorts of undesirable behaviour witness military procurement programs and b is probably far too small a reward to encourage what would be a very expensive and high risk proposition gregory bond gnb bby com au burdett buckeridge young ltd melbourne australia hey my dad has an old hangar and judy has some old rockets in her attic let s put on a lunar program sounds good but let s play a game what would be a reasonable reward what companies would have a reasonable shot at pulling off such a feat just where in the budget would the reward come from should there be a time limit would a straight cash money award be enough or should we throw in say exclusive mining rights for the first fifty years you get the idea i d like to play but i don t have a clue to the answers tom freebairn he who refuses to understand math will probably never get his checkbook figured out
sci.space	double sonic booms every time you read about a shuttle landing they mention the double sonic booms having taken various relevant classes i have several ideas of where they come from but none of them are very convincing exactly what causes them are they a one time pheneomenon or a constant one like the supersonic shockwave that is constantly produced by a plane but you hear only when it goes over you carlos g niederstrasser only two things are infinite princeton planetary society the universe and human stupidity and i m not sure about the former einstein carlosn phoenix princeton edu space phoenix princeton edu ad astra per ardua nostra
sci.space	re magellan update in apr kelvin jpl nasa gov baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov ron baalke writes forwarded from doug griffith magellan project manager magellan status report april magellan has completed orbits of venus and is now days from the end of cycle and the start of the transition experiment sorry i think i missed a bit of info on this transition experiment what is it on monday morning april the moon will occult venus and interrupt the tracking of magellan for about minutes will this mean a loss of data or will the magellan transmit data later on btw when will nasa cut off the connection with magellan not that i am looking forward to that day but i am just curious i believe it had something to do with the funding from the goverment or rather no funding ok that s it for now see you guys around jurriaan jhwitten cs ruu nl jurriaan wittenberg department of computerscience utrecht the netherlands
sci.space	looking for a little research help hi i m writing a science fiction script and i m looking for some answers to questions regarding the moon and earth my starting point is an impossible situation i checked with a professor at berkeley and his response was a very helpful can t happen if you enjoy playing with unusual ideas and are willing answer some questions please contact me via e mail jennise dgi com i get extremely annoyed when screen and tele plays ignore basic facts about computers that i m determined to be as scientifically accurate as i can sorry for being vague but i d like to protect my idea as much as i can until i m ready to sell it hopefully jennise
sci.space	looking for a little research help addendum sorry but i forgot this ps right now my sight is getting news about two weeks behind so it s kind of necessary to me that any responses be sent to me directly thanks a lot jennise jennise dgi com
sci.space	ariane v mission data arianespace flight flight v was originally intended to carry the hughes hs series galaxy iv satellite but the payload was withdrawn just prior to flight the th ariane launch is now scheduled to place the astra c and arsene satellites into an improved geostationary transfer orbit gto with inclination reduced to degrees and apogee altitude increased by km this will be the th launch of an ariane and the first in the l configuration with liquid strap on boosters pal it will be launched from the newly refurbished ariane launch complex ela in kourou french guiana the launch vehicle performance requirement for this mission is kg of which kg represents the satellite mass the total vehicle mass at liftoff is kg required orbit characteristics perigee altitude km apogee altitude km at injection inclination degrees the ariane l lift off for flight is scheduled on thursday april as soon as possible within the following launch window kourou time gmt washington dc launch vehicle ariane l this is a three stage liquid fueled launcher with two liquid fueled strap on boosters the first stage l is built by aerospatiale and is powered by liquid fueled viking v engines the second stage l is built by mbb erno and is powered by a single viking iv engine both the viking iv and v engines are manufactured by sep the first and second stages use a biliquid uh n o fuel the third stage h is built by aerospatiale and is powered by a cryogenic h o fueled hm b engine built by sep the two strap on boosters pal are each powered by a viking vi engine also built by sep which use the same biliquid fuel as the first and second stages the fully assembled launch vehicle stands meters high on the pad it uses the type ariane short payload fairing flight profile liquid strap on booster jettison first stage separation second stage ignition fairing jettison second stage separation third stage ignition third stage shutdown orbit injection astra c separation cyclade adapter separation arsene separation end of ariane mission payloads astra c is the third spacecraft in the fleet of societe europeenne des satellites to broadcast direct tv to homes all over europe built by hughes it will be the second hs launched by ariane total mass at lift off kg mass at geo insertion kg dry mass kg on board power w end of life nominal lifetime years span of solar panels m on orbit position degrees east over africa transmission capacity channels in ku band via transponders in flight operations solar array deployment about days after lift off first of apogee motor firings about hours after lift off at th apogee arsene is the first spacecraft built by the european space industry for the benefit of the world amateur radio community total mass at lift off kg mass at geo insertion kg dry mass kg on board power w end of life nominal lifetime years spacecraft dimensions m x m orbital parameters km inclination period transmission capacity s band transponder at ghz vhf uhf mhz launch coverage all ariane missions are broadcast live via satellite from kourou coverage begins at minutes before launch and continues until all payloads have been deployed this mission will likely be carried in the us on galaxy however it could be galaxy or another satellite what is the european satellite normally used for ariane coverage dean adams
sci.space	re stereo pix of planets y in article apr csus edu arthurc sfsuvax sfsu edu arthur chandler writes can anyone tell me where i might find stereo images of planetary and planetary satellite surfaces gifs preferred but any will do i m especially interested in stereos of the surfaces of phobos deimos mars and the moon in that order thanks ames arc nasa gov not sure what subdirectory thou michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked ps i know it has a gif area as well as space and other info
sci.space	re why not give billion to first year long moon residents in apr indyvax iupui edu tffreeba indyvax iupui edu writes let s play a game what would be a reasonable reward what companies would have a reasonable shot at pulling off such a feat just where in the budget would the reward come from should there be a time limit would a straight cash money award be enough or should we throw in say exclusive mining rights for the first fifty years you get the idea a cash award is ok a time limit would be nice you can t give away mining rights assuming there s anything to mine because you don t own them sig files are like strings every yo yo s got one greg nicholls nicho vnet ibm com business or nicho olympus demon co uk private
sci.space	re why not give billion to first year long moon residents in article qve kinnpas sal sun usc edu schaefer sal sun usc edu peter schaefer writes announce that a reward of billion would go to the first corporation who successfully keeps at least person alive on the moon for a year oh gee a billion dollars that d be just about enough to cover the cost of the feasability study happy happy joy joy depends if you assume the existance of a working ssto like dc on billion would be enough to put about a quarter million pounds of stuff on the moon if some of that mass went to send equipment to make lox for the transfer vehicle you could send a lot more either way its a lot more than needed this prize isn t big enough to warrent developing a ssto but it is enough to do it if the vehicle exists allen lady astor sir if you were my husband i would poison your coffee w churchill madam if you were my wife i would drink it days to first flight of dcx
sci.space	moon colony prize race billion total i think if there is to be a prize and such there should be classes such as the following large corp small corp company based on reported earnings large government gnp and such small governemtn or political clout or gnp large organization planetary society and such small organization alot of small orgs the organization things would probably have to be non profit or liek of course this means the prize might go up larger get more or basically make the prize total purse billion divided amngst the class winners more fair there would have to be a seperate organization set up to monitor the events umpire and such and watch for safety violations or maybe not if peopel want to risk thier own lives let them do it any other ideas michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked
sci.space	re how to read sci space without netnews in article c ljg n cs cmu edu mwm cs cmu edu mark maimone writes in article f permanet org mark prado p f n z permanet org mark prado writes if anyone knows anyone else who would like to get sci space but doesn t have an internet feed or has a cryptic internet feed i would be willing to feed it to them kudos to mark for his generous offer but there already exists a large email based forwarding system for sci space posts space digest it mirrors sci space exactly and provides simple two way communication i think mark was talking about making it available to people who didn t have email in the first place if anybody in the boston area wants a sci space feed by honest to gosh uucp no weird offline malreaders let me know i ll also hand out logins to anyone who wants one especially the boston chapter of nss which i keep forgetting to re attend questions comments to space request isu isunet edu mark maimone phone carnegie mellon computer science email mwm cmu edu richard nickle rick trystro uucp v v bis think trystro rick somerville massachusetts
sci.space	re what if the ussr had reached the moon first in article apr ke zv uucp gary ke zv uucp gary coffman says in article saundrsg qucdn queensu ca graydon saundrsg qucdn queensu ca writes this is turning into what s a moonbase good for and i ought not to post when i ve a hundred some odd posts to go but i would think that the real reason to have a moon base is economic since someone with space industry will presumeably have a much larger gnp than they would without space industry eventually they will simply be able to afford more stuff if i read you right you re saying in essence that with a larger economy nations will have more discretionary funds to waste on a lunar facility that was certainly partially the case with apollo but real lunar colonies will probably require a continuing military scientific or commercial reason for being rather than just a we have the money why not approach i was assuming that there won t be a moon base unless it makes a profit actually if it does well that gives a larger gnp which leads to being able to spend more money on your military including gosh wow space stuff assuming it s profitable rather than paying for itself it s conceivable that luna will have a military purpose it s possible that luna will have a commercial purpose but it s most likely that luna will only have a scientific purpose for the next several hundred years at least therefore lunar bases should be predicated on funding levels little different from those found for antarctic bases can you put a person base on the moon for million a year even if you use grad students you might be able to run one for that put it there hardly why do you think at least a couple centuries before there will be significant commerical activity on the moon graydon
sci.space	re dc x update in article schumach convex convex com schumach convex com richard a schumacher writes would the sub orbital version be suitable as is or as will be for use as a reuseable sounding rocket dc x as is today isn t suitable for this however the followon sdio funds will a reusable sounding rocket was always sdio s goal thank ghod i had thought that spacelifter would definitely be the bastard son of nls so did i there is a lot going on now and some reports are due soon which should be very favorable the insiders have been very bush briefing the right people and it is now paying off however public support is still critical in politics you need to keep constant pressure on elected officials allen lady astor sir if you were my husband i would poison your coffee w churchill madam if you were my wife i would drink it days to first flight of dcx
sci.space	re dc x update in article ugo b w w angus mi org dragon angus mi org writes exactly when will the hover test be done early to mid june and will any of the tv networks carry it i really want to see that if they think the public wants to see it they will carry it why not write them and ask you can reach them at f national news media abc world news tonight face the nation west th street cbs news new york ny m street nw washington dc associated press good morning america rockefeller plaza abc news new york ny broadway national desk new york ny foreign desk washington bureau larry king live tv cbs evening news cnn w th street massachusetts avenue nw new york ny washington dc cbs this morning larry king show radio w th street mutual broadcasting new york ny so jefferson davis highway arlington va christian science monitor csm publishing society los angeles times one norway street times mirror square boston ma los angeles ca cnn macneil lehrer newshour one cnn center p o box box washington dc atlanta ga macneil lehrer newshour cnn wnet tv washington bureau w th street massachusetts avenue nw new york ny washington dc crossfire nbc news cnn nebraska avenue nw massachusetts avenue nw washington dc washington dc fax morning edition all things considered national public radio m street nw washington dc united press international eye street nw washington dc new york times u s news world report w rd street n street nw new york ny washington dc new york times usa today washington bureau wilson boulevard eye street nw th floor arlington va washington dc newsweek wall street journal madison avenue liberty street new york ny new york ny nightline washington post abc news th street nw w th street washington dc new york ny nightline washington week in review ted koppel weta tv abc news p o box desales nw washington dc washington dc this week with david brinkley abc news desales nw washington dc time magazine time warner inc time life building rockefeller center new york ny lady astor sir if you were my husband i would poison your coffee w churchill madam if you were my wife i would drink it days to first flight of dcx
sci.space	jemison on star trek i saw in the newspaper last night that dr mae jemison the first black woman in space she s a physician and chemical engineer who flew on endeavour last year will appear as a transporter operator on the star trek the next generation episode that airs the week of may it s hardly space science i know but it s interesting doug loss
sci.space	re russian email contacts it is usually possible to reach people at iki institute for space research in moscow by writing to ikimail esoc bitnet this is a machine at esa in darmstadt germany iki has a dedicated phone line to this machine and someone there logs in regularly to retrieve mail in addition there are several user accounts belonging to russian scientific institutions on user sovam com which is a commercial enterprise based in san francisco that provides email services to the former ussr for example fian sovam com is the physics institute of the academy of sciences initials transliterated from russian of course these connections cost the russians real dollars even for received messages so please don t send anything voluminous or frivilous larry r d addario national radio astronomy observatory addresses internet ldaddari nrao edu fax charlottesville green bank mail ivy road charlottesville va usa phone office home cho off lab apt gb
sci.space	message from space digest joint press release esa un no paris april un esa joint training course on satellite applications to be held in italy april the united nations and the european space agency esa are jointly organising a training course on the applications of satellite data gathered by the european remote sensing satellite ers to be held in frascati italy from to april the training course will discuss the applications of satellite data concerning natural resources renewable energy and the environment the training course organised for the benefit of francophone african experts will be hosted by esrin the european space agency s establishment in frascati which is responsible for coordination with the users of data from esa s remote sensing satellite twenty four experts in the field of remote sensing selected from francophone countries from northern western and central africa and three regional african centres will attend the two week session the course will focus on remote sensing techniques and data applications particularly ers data the ers satellite developed by esa and launched in with the european ariane launcher carries an advanced radar instrument and is the first in a series of radar remote sensing missions that will ensure availability of data beyond the year the aim of the training course is to increase the potential of experts using the practical applications of radar remote sensing systems to natural resources renewable energy and the environment with particular emphasis on applications to geology and mineral prospecting oceanography and near coastal areas agriculture forestry and meteorology the education and practical training programme was developed jointly by the united nations and esa the facilities and the technical support as well as lecturers and information documents for the training course will be provided by the agency lecturers at the training course will include high level experts from other european and african organisations active in remote sensing applications funds for the training course are being provided by the united nations trust fund for new and renewable sources of energy the primary contributor to that fund is the government of italy a similar training course is being planned for latin american experts
sci.space	re magellan update in article apr cs ruu nl jhwitten cs ruu nl jurriaan wittenberg writes in apr kelvin jpl nasa gov baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov ron baalke writes on monday morning april the moon will occult venus and interrupt the tracking of magellan for about minutes will this mean a loss of data or will the magellan transmit data later on the gravity data is collected in real time and it not recorded to the tape recorder however you only need to collect the gravity every rd or th orbit so there is no real data loss if the moon blocks transmission for a short while btw when will nasa cut off the connection with magellan not that i am looking forward to that day but i am just curious i believe it had something to do with the funding from the goverment or rather no funding the aerobraking starts may and is expected last about days if the funding is provided million dollars to extend the mission for the high resolution gravity data then the mission will last through october otherwise the mission will end this coming july ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab m s telos the aweto from new zealand pasadena ca is part caterpillar and part vegetable
sci.space	re conference on manned lunar exploration may crystal city in article c rhoc fty news cso uiuc edu jbh uxa cso uiuc edu josh hopkins writes i remeber reading the comment that general dynamics was tied into this in connection with their proposal for an early manned landing sorry i don t rember where i heard this but i m fairly sure it was somewhere reputable anyone else know anything on this angle the general chairman is paul bialla who is some official of general dynamics the emphasis seems to be on a scaled down fast plan to put people on the moon in an impoverished spaceflight funding climate you d think it would be a golden opportunity to do lots of precusor work for modest money using an agressive series of robot spacecraft but there s not a hint of this in the brochure hrumph they didn t send me anything you re not hanging out with the right people apparently bill higgins beam jockey i m gonna keep on writing songs fermilab until i write the song bitnet higgins fnal bitnet that makes the guys in detroit internet higgins fnal fnal gov who draw the cars span hepnet higgins put tailfins on em again john prine
sci.space	re how many read sci space in article qkmkiinnep mojo eng umd edu sysmgr king eng umd edu doug mohney writes in article apr mksol dseg ti com pyron skndiv dseg ti com dillon pyron writes there are actually only two of us i do henry fred tommy and mary oh yeah this isn t my real name i m a bald headed space baby damn so it was you who was drinking beer with robert mcelwane in the parking lot of the k mart software engineering that s like military intelligence isn t it sysmgr cadlab eng umd edu they just tore down the kmart near my house putting in a new suptermarket i heard that there is a beer drinking ghost who still haunts the place tom i liked this one i read a while ago data sheet hsn nuclear event detector the ned senses the gamma radiation pulse from a nuclear weapon as if we wouldn t notice
sci.space	re solar sail data in article apr news duc auburn edu snydefj eng auburn edu writes i am looking for any information concerning projects involving solar sails i was at an interesting seminar at work uk s r a l space science dept on this subject specifically on a small scale solar sail proposed as a student space project the guy giving the talk was keen to generate interest in the project i ll typein the handout he gave out at the meeting here goes the microlight solar sail introduction the solar sail is a well established concept harnessing the pressure of sunlight a spacecraft would have unlimited range in principle such a vehicle could explore the whole solar system with zero fuel consumption however it is more difficult to design a practical solar sail than most people realize the pressure of sunlight is only about one kilogram per square kilometer deploying and controlling the large area of aluminized fabric which would be necessary to transport a conventional type spacecraft is a daunting task this is why despite the potential of hte idea no such craft has actually been launched to date design recent advances in microelectronics make possible a different concept a tiny sail just a few metres in diameter which could be controlled purely be electronics with no mechanical parts several attitude control methods are feasible for example the pressure sunlight exerts on a panel of solar cells varies according to whether power is being drawn the key components of the craft will be a minute ccd camera developed at edinburgh university which can act as both attitude sensor and data gathering device solar cells providing watt power for control and communication and a directional radio antenna etched onto the surface of the sail itself launched as a piggyback payload the total cost of the mission can be limited to a few tens of thousands of dollars missions the craft would be capable of some ambitious missions for example a it could rendezvous with a nearby asteroid from the apollo or amor groups closeup pictures could be transmitted back to earth at a low bit rate b it could be steered into a lunar polar orbit previously unobserved areas around the lunar poles could be viewed by angling the sail to reflect sunlight downwards polar craters whose bases never receive sunlight could be imaged bright reflections would confirm that volatiles such as water ice have become trapped in these locations immensely valuable information for setting up a manned lunar base btw c it could be sent to rendezvous with a small asteroid or comet nucleus impacting at low speed a thin wire probe attached to the craft causes it to rebound while capturing a tiny sample is a sharp edged tube like performing a biopsy returning to earth the sail acts as an ideal re entry parachute load per unit area gm m ensures that heat is reradiated so efectively that the sail temperature cannot exceed deg c the material sample is recovered enclosed in a small insulating container contact colin jack tel oxford mathematical designs high street oxford ox dh england this guy would love to hear from anyone interested in this project or seeking details or anything and would be most happy to send you more information andy andy jonathan j broderick i have come that they might have rutherford lab uk life and have it to the full mail ajjb adam bnsc rl ac uk jesus christ
sci.space	re why not give billion to first year long moon residents in article apr iti org aws iti org allen w sherzer writes this prize isn t big enough to warrent developing a ssto but it is enough to do it if the vehicle exists actually there are people who will tell you that it would be enough to do ssto development if done privately as a cut rate operation of course they may be over optimistic you can also assume that a working ssto would have other applications that would help pay for its development costs i d be inclined to make the prize somewhat larger but g might be enough all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	space activities in tucson az i would like to find out about space engineering employment and educational opportunities in the tucson arizona area e mail responses appreciated my mail feed is intermittent so please try one or all of these addresses ben muniz w munizb rwtms decnet beach rockwell com or bmuniz a tms remnet ab com munizb rwtms decnet consrt rockwell com
sci.space	re what if the ussr had reached the moon first in article saundrsg qucdn queensu ca graydon saundrsg qucdn queensu ca writes in article apr ke zv uucp gary ke zv uucp gary coffman says it s conceivable that luna will have a military purpose it s possible that luna will have a commercial purpose but it s most likely that luna will only have a scientific purpose for the next several hundred years at least therefore lunar bases should be predicated on funding levels little different from those found for antarctic bases can you put a person base on the moon for million a year even if you use grad students you might be able to run one for that put it there hardly why do you think at least a couple centuries before there will be significant commerical activity on the moon wishful thinking mostly it s more likely that the moon will never be the site of major commercial activity as far as we know it has no materials we can t get cheaper right here on earth or from asteroids and comets aside from the semi mythic he that might be useful in low grade fusion reactors exploring it would satisfy a curiosity itch and it s position in the gravity well of earth coupled with it s heat sink capacity could offer some military utility for high ground military weapons systems but it holds very minute commercial value if space travel becomes cheap enough it might become a tourist attraction as mt everest and the antarctic have become but that s a very minor activity in the global scope of things luna has an inconvienent gravity field it s likely too low to prevent calcium loss muscle atrophy and long term genetic drift yet it s too high to do micro g manufacturing space based colonies and factories that can be spun to any convienent value of g look much better luna has a modest vacuum and raw solar exposure two weeks a month but orbital sites can have better vacuums and continous solar exposure luna offers a source of light element rocks that can serve as raw materials heatsink and shielding the asteroids and comets offer sources of both light and heavy elements and volatile compounds and many are in less steep gravity wells so that less delta v is required to reach them we don t use rds of the earth now the seafloors and we virtually ignore antarctica a whole continent that s because we don t have to deal with those conditions in order to make a buck luna is a much more expensive place to visit or to live and work i think we ll use the easier places first that pushes lunar development back at least a few centuries if not much longer luna s main short term value would be as a place for a farside radio astronomy observatory shielded from the noisy earth or as the site of a laser particle beam or linear accelerator weapons system for defending earth or bombarding it as the case may be the first is unlikely because of the high cost for such a basic science instrument the second is just as unlikely because conventional nukes are good enough and the military would really rather see the earth safe for conventional warfare again there s little glory in watching from a bunker as machines fight each other over continental ranges little ultimate profit either gary gary coffman ke zv you make it gatech wa mei ke zv gary destructive testing systems we break it uunet rsiatl ke zv gary shannon way guaranteed emory kd nc ke zv gary lawrenceville ga
sci.space	re what if the ussr had reached the moon first in article c qiv h o cs cmu edu nickh cs cmu edu nick haines writes in article apr ke zv uucp gary ke zv uucp gary coffman writes if i read you right you re saying in essence that with a larger economy nations will have more discretionary funds to waste on a lunar facility that was certainly partially the case with apollo but real lunar colonies will probably require a continuing military scientific or commercial reason for being rather than just a we have the money why not approach ah but the whole point is that money spent on a lunar base is not wasted on the moon it s not like they d be using r bills to fuel their moon dozers the money to fund a lunar base would be spent in the country to which the base belonged it s a way of funding high tech research just like darpa was a good excuse to fund various fields of research under the pretense that it was crucial to the defense of the country or like esprit is a good excuse for the ec to fund research under the pretense that it s good for pan european cooperation now maybe you think that government funded research is a waste of money in fact i m pretty sure you do but it does count as investment spending which does boost the economy and just look at the size of that multiplier actually i favor government funded research it is a pump prime for a lot of basic technologies i also understand the short term value of high tech welfare programs but they can t substitute for long range wealth generation via commercial enterprise that s what s needed to maintain a healthy economy anywhere on earth or luna i don t see that long term potential on luna due to a bunch of factors i outline in another post gary gary coffman ke zv you make it gatech wa mei ke zv gary destructive testing systems we break it uunet rsiatl ke zv gary shannon way guaranteed emory kd nc ke zv gary lawrenceville ga
sci.space	first spacewalk at one time there was speculation that the first spacewalk alexei leonov was a staged fake has any evidence to support or contradict this claim emerged was this claim perhaps another fevered cold war hallucination fred baube tm in times of intellectual ferment baube optiplan fi advantage to him with the intellect include disclaimer h most fermented how is frank zappa doing may paris it s retrospective time
sci.space	moonbase race from gene wright gene theporch raider net with the continuin talk about the end of the space age and complaints by government over the large cost why not try something i read about that might just work announce that a reward of billion would go to the first corporation who successfully keeps at least person alive on the moon for a year then you d see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin to be developed there d be a different kind of space race then i ll say imagine that there were a couple groups up there maybe landing a few weeks apart the year mark starts coming on for the first group isn t a billion pretty good incentive to take a shot at a potential winner yeah that s a shame that team a s life support gave out so close to the deadline thanks for the billion on the other hand if apollo cost billion for a few days or weeks in space in dollars then won t the reward have to be a lot more than only billion to get any takers tommy mac tom mcwilliams wk as the radius of vision increases tm ibm cl msu edu hm the circumference of mystery grows
sci.space	level nick haines sez given that i ve heard the shuttle software rated as level in maturity i strongly doubt that this having lots of bugs is the case level out of how many what are the different levels i ve never heard of this rating system anyone care to clue me in tommy mac tom mcwilliams wk as the radius of vision increases tm ibm cl msu edu hm the circumference of mystery grows
sci.space	re orion drive in vacuum how in article c qvjc b b zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes the national air space museum has both the prototype and the film however quite possibly it s no longer on display nasm like most museums has much more stuff than it can display at once and does rotate the displays occasionally the nasm photo archives are open to the public all or almost all still pictures in the collection are available for viewing but i don t know about films at least it might be worth a try i m not sure if appointments are necessary but i think not good luck and let us know what you find steve willner phone bitnet willner cfa cambridge ma usa internet willner cfa harvard edu member league for programming freedom contact lpf uunet uu net
sci.space	re moon colony prize race billion total in article apr aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes i think if there is to be a prize and such there should be classes such as the following large corp small corp company based on reported earnings large government gnp and such small governemtn or political clout or gnp large organization planetary society and such small organization alot of small orgs whatabout schools universities rich individuals around people in the uk have more than million dollars each i reecieved mail from people who claimed they might get a person into space for per pound send a skinny person into space and split the rest of the money among the ground crew the organization things would probably have to be non profit or liek of course this means the prize might go up larger get more or basically make the prize total purse billion divided amngst the class winners more fair there would have to be a seperate organization set up to monitor the events umpire and such and watch for safety violations or maybe not if peopel want to risk thier own lives let them do it agreed i volunteer for any uk attempts but one clause no launch methods which are clearly dangerous to the environment ours or someone else s no usage of materials from areas of planetary importance any other ideas yes we should do this rather than talk about it lobby people the major problem with the space programmes is all talk paperwork and no action michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked marvin batty djf uk ac cov cck and they shall not find those things with a sort of rafia like base that their fathers put there just the night before at about o clock
sci.space	re conference on manned lunar exploration may crystal city higgins fnalf fnal gov bill higgins beam jockey writes josh hopkins writes i remeber reading the comment that general dynamics was tied into this in connection with their proposal for an early manned landing the general chairman is paul bialla who is some official of general dynamics the emphasis seems to be on a scaled down fast plan to put people on the moon in an impoverished spaceflight funding climate you d think it would be a golden opportunity to do lots of precusor work for modest money using an agressive series of robot spacecraft but there s not a hint of this in the brochure it may be that they just didn t mention it or that they actually haven t thought about it i got the vague impression from their mission proposal that they weren t taking a very holistic aproach to the whole thing they seemed to want to land people on the moon by the end of the decade without explaining why or what they would do once they got there the only application i remember from the av week article was placing a telescope on the moon that s great but they don t explain why it can t be done robotically hrumph they didn t send me anything you re not hanging out with the right people apparently but i m a member besides bill i hang out with you josh hopkins jbh uxa cso uiuc edu find a way or make one attributed to hannibal
sci.space	re solar sail data ajjb adam bnsc rl ac uk andrew broderick writes in article apr news duc auburn edu snydefj eng auburn edu writes i am looking for any information concerning projects involving solar sails i was at an interesting seminar at work uk s r a l space science dept on this subject specifically on a small scale solar sail proposed as a student space project the guy giving the talk was keen to generate interest in the project i ll typein the handout he gave out at the meeting here goes stuff deleted however it is more difficult to design a practical solar sail than most people realize the pressure of sunlight is only about one kilogram per square kilometer i m glad to see that someone is working on this however it would be nice if he got his units right josh hopkins jbh uxa cso uiuc edu find a way or make one attributed to hannibal
sci.space	re solar sail data in article apr news duc auburn edu snydefj eng auburn edu frank j snyder writes i am looking for any information concerning projects involving solar sails are there any groups out there currently involved in such a project sure contact the world space foundation they re listed in the sci space frequently asked questions file which i ll excerpt world space foundation has been designing and building a solar sail spacecraft for longer than any similar group many jpl employees lend their talents to this project wsf also provides partial funding for the palomar sky survey an extremely successful search for near earth asteroids publishes foundation news and foundation astronautics notebook each a quarterly page newsletter contributing associate minimum of year but more money always welcome to support projects world space foundation post office box y south pasadena california wsf put together a little paperback anthology of fiction and nonfiction about solar sails project solar sail i think robert staehle david brin or arthur clarke may be listed as editor also there is a nontechnical book on solar sailing by louis friedman a technical one by a guy whose name escapes me help me out josh and i would expect that greg matloff and eugene mallove have something to say about the subject in the starflight handbook as well as quite a few references check the following articles in journal of the british interplanetary society v p v p v p v p v p v p can you guess that matloff visited fermilab and gave me a bunch of reprints i just found the file and k eric drexler s paper high performance solar sails and related reflecting devices aiaa paper probably in a book called space manufacturing maybe the proceedings of the second conference on space manufacturing the one at any rate submarines flying boats robots talking bill higgins pictures radio television bouncing radar fermilab vibrations off the moon rocket ships and higgins fnal bitnet atom splitting all in our time but nobody higgins fnal fnal gov has yet been able to figure out a music span higgins holder for a marching piccolo player meredith willson
sci.space	keeping spacecraft on after funding cuts why do spacecraft have to be shut off after funding cuts for example why couldn t magellan just be told to go into a safe mode and stay bobbing about venus in a low power use mode and if maybe in a few years if funding gets restored after the economy gets better hopefully it could be turned on again for that matter why exactly were the apollo lunar experiments turned off rather than just safed was it political i e as along as they could be used someone would keep bugging congress for funds turning them off keeps them pesky scientists out of the bureaucrat s hair i ve heard the argument that an active but uncontrolled spacecraft causes radio noise i find that hard to believe that this could be a problem in a properly designed safe mode this safe mode could be a program routine which causes the spacecraft to go to least fuel using orientation and once a week month year whatever attempts a signal lock on earth at that time if funding has been restored the mission can continue if no signal is recieved the spacecraft goes back to the safe mode for another time period as we would know when the spacecraft is going to try to contact earth we could be prepared if necessary as another a spacecraft could do at the attempted contact is beam stored data towards earth if someone can receive it great if not so it s lost and no big deal by making the time and signal location generally known perhaps someone in the world might be able and willing to intercept the data even if they re not willing to contact the spacecraft i see this as being particularly useful for spacecraft which could have an otherwise long life and are in or are going to places which are otherwise unaccessible jupiter saturn orbit exiting the solar system etc perhaps those designing future spacecraft cassini pluto flyby etc should consider designing in a pause mode in case their spacecraft gets the ax sometime in the future after completion of the primary mission perhaps mars observer and galilleo could have some kind of routine written in for the post mission drift phase so any holes in all this james t green jgreen oboe calpoly edu i believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving the goal before this decade is out of landing a man on the moon and returning him safely to the earth john f kennedy may
sci.space	commercial mining activities on the moon in article apr ke zv uucp gary ke zv uucp gary coffman writes be the site of major commercial activity as far as we know it has no materials we can t get cheaper right here on earth or from asteroids and comets aside from the semi mythic he that might be useful in low grade fusion reactors i don t know what a low grade fusion reactor is but the major problem with he aside from the difficulty in making any fusion reactor work is that its concentration in lunar regolith is just so small on the order of ppb or so on average more in some fractions but still very small massive amounts of regolith would have to be processed this thread reminds me of wingo s claims some time ago about the moon as a source of titanium for use on earth as i recall wingo wasn t content with being assured that titanium at in the earth s crust average would not run out and touted lunar mines even though the market price of ilmenite concentrate these days is around pound this prompted me to look up large potential terrestrial sources on the moon titanium occurs in basalts high ti basalts apollo and have titanium dioxide by weight this is nice but terrestrial continental flood basalts are also typically enriched in titanium they very often have tio frequently have and sometimes even tio again by weight these flood basalts are enormous millions of cubic kilometers scattered all over the world siberia brazil the nw united states ethiopia etc if even of the basalts are tio this is trillions of tons of tio at concentrations only a factor of less than in lunar high ti basalts it is difficult to see how the disadvantages of the moon could be overcome by such a small increase the concentration of the ore never mind the richer but less common terrestrial ores being mined today paul f dietz dietz cs rochester edu
sci.space	re keeping spacecraft on after funding cuts in article apr zeus calpoly edu jgreen trumpet calpoly edu james thomas green writes why do spacecraft have to be shut off after funding cuts for example why couldn t magellan just be told to go into a safe mode and stay bobbing about venus in a low power use mode and if maybe in a few years if funding gets restored after the economy gets better hopefully it could be turned on again it can be but the problem is a political one not a technical one ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab m s telos the aweto from new zealand pasadena ca is part caterpillar and part vegetable
sci.space	re orion drive in vacuum how in article apr head cfa harvard edu willner head cfa harvard edu steve willner writes the nasm photo archives are open to the public all or almost all still pictures in the collection are available for viewing but i don t know about films at least it might be worth a try i m not sure if appointments are necessary but i think not is posible to make copies of these photographs or any other aerospace photographs at nasm if you pay a copyright fee andres c gaeris living example of the application of newton s junior laser fusioneer zeroth law agae lle rochester edu every body in rest wants to remain in bed
sci.space	re comet in temporary orbit around jupiter jgarland kean ucs mun ca writes also perihelions of gehrels were april jupiter radii august jupiter radii where jupiter radius km mi au so the figure seems unlikely to actually be anything but a perijove is that the case for the figure as well sorry perijoves i m not used to talking this language hmmmm the prefix peri is greek not latin so it s usually used with the greek form of the name of the body being orbited that s why it s perihelion rather than perisol perigee rather than periterr and pericynthion rather than perilune so for jupiter i d expect it to be something like perizeon bob bob com robert k coe churchill st sudbury massachusetts
sci.space	proton centaur has anyone looked into the possiblity of a proton centaur combo what would be the benefits and problems with such a combo other than the obvious instability in the xssr now james t green jgreen oboe calpoly edu i know you believe you understand what it is that you think i said but i am not sure that you realize that what i said is not what i meant
sci.space	re commercial mining activities on the moon in article apr cs rochester edu dietz cs rochester edu paul dietz writes in article apr ke zv uucp gary ke zv uucp gary coffman writes be the site of major commercial activity as far as we know it has no materials we can t get cheaper right here on earth or from asteroids and comets aside from the semi mythic he that might be useful in low grade fusion reactors problem with he aside from the difficulty in making any fusion reactor work is that its concentration in lunar regolith is just so small on the order of ppb or so on average more in some this thread reminds me of wingo s claims some time ago about the moon as a source of titanium for use on earth as i recall wingo wasn t even of the basalts are tio this is trillions of tons of tio at concentrations only a factor of less than in lunar high ti basalts it is difficult to see how the disadvantages of the moon could be overcome by such a small increase the concentration of the ore never mind the richer but less common terrestrial ores being mined today why paul it s obvious once chlorine chemistry has been banned on earth as is being advocated by some groups ti prices will sharply increase we are of course not allowed to assume any developments in ti processing lunar ti will then be eminently competitive for the trendy jewelry market and certain applications of national importance oops this is sci space wrong rules of debate seriously i d say there is a flaw in gary s analysis in that he assumes an export oriented economy maybe the lunatics will just want some native ti for local use as to why lunar natives are cost effective analysis has shown they will be critical in providing a sheltered manufacturing base technological innovation critical materials and manpower in the war between the allies and central powers in about two hundred years steinn sigurdsson i saw two shooting stars last night lick observatory i wished on them but they were only satellites steinly lick ucsc edu is it wrong to wish on space hardware standard disclaimer i wish i wish i wish you d care b b
sci.space	re commercial mining activities on the moon in article steinly apr topaz ucsc edu steinly topaz ucsc edu steinn sigurdsson writes why paul it s obvious once chlorine chemistry has been banned on earth as is being advocated by some groups ti prices will sharply increase we are of course not allowed to assume any developments in ti processing lunar ti will then be eminently competitive for the trendy jewelry market and certain applications of national importance well there already is a sulfate process for tio purification the chlorine process is cleaner however and for that reason is achieving dominance in the marketplace most ti is used in pigment btw as the oxide where it replaced white lead pigment some decades ago very little is reduced to the metal seriously i d say there is a flaw in gary s analysis in that he assumes an export oriented economy maybe the lunatics will just want some native ti for local use which merely evades the issue of why those lunatics are there at all and why their children would want to stay paul f dietz dietz cs rochester edu
sci.space	re did any dc x gifs show up fils iastate edu douglas r fils writes in article qgiah h g news cerf net diaspar nic cerf net diaspar virtual reality network writes the rollout was great and i got lots of great shots i attended the press briefing and got shots of the dc y model too all in d david h mitchell david are you still planing on scanning these and posting them somewhere hope hope hope if you could that would be great thanks for report of the rollout as well take care doug they did the rollout already i am going to have to pay more attention to the news are any of the gifs headed for wuarchive patrick patrick grady how do they manage it these humans beginning pwg uxa cso uiuc edu each time so innocently yet always ending up pwg sumter cso uiuc edu with the most blood on their hands fathertree to bugger o s card s xenocide
sci.space	re commercial mining activities on the moon in article apr cs rochester edu dietz cs rochester edu paul dietz writes in article steinly apr topaz ucsc edu steinly topaz ucsc edu steinn sigurdsson writes why paul it s obvious once chlorine chemistry has been banned on earth as is being advocated by some groups ti prices will well there already is a sulfate process for tio purification the chlorine process is cleaner however and for that reason is achieving dominance in the marketplace darn caught by the white hot heat of technological progress again most ti is used in pigment btw as the oxide where it replaced white lead pigment some decades ago very little is reduced to the metal spoilsport hence the need for increasing fashion emphasis on anodise ti jewelry seriously i d say there is a flaw in gary s analysis in that he assumes an export oriented economy maybe the lunatics will just want some native ti for local use which merely evades the issue of why those lunatics are there at all and why their children would want to stay i did not evade the issue at all i clearly stated that this would be from diabolical foresight in establishing a sheltered industrial base for the upcoming great war very cost effective if you use the right accounting method steinn sigurdsson lick observatory steinly lick ucsc edu standard disclaimer but oh love is strange and you have to learn to take the crunchy with the smooth i suppose b b
sci.space	re why not give billion to first year lo in article f zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes in article apr iti org aws iti org allen w sherzer writes this prize isn t big enough to warrent developing a ssto but it is enough to do it if the vehicle exists actually there are people who will tell you that it would be enough to do ssto development if done privately as a cut rate operation of course they may be over optimistic you can also assume that a working ssto would have other applications that would help pay for its development costs i d be inclined to make the prize somewhat larger but g might be enough this all sounds like that indecent proposal movie wouldn t there be a lot of people that would try this with little hope of working just to get the dough if you have a chance and it costs you mil then you might pay some stooge a few grand to be your lucky hero just send up a few dozen and is bound to survive enough to make you rich dong
sci.space	vandalizing the sky from the article what s new apr in sci physics research what s new in my opinion friday april washington dc space billboards is this one the spinoffs we were promised in science fiction writer robert heinlein published the man who sold the moon which involved a dispute over the sale of rights to the moon for use as billboard nasa has taken the firsteps toward this hideous vision of the future observers were startled this spring when a nasa launch vehicle arrived at the pad with schwarzenegger painted in huge block letters on the side of the booster rockets space marketing inc had arranged for the ad to promote arnold s latest movie now space marketing is working with university of colorado and livermore engineers on a plan to place a mile long inflatable billboard in low earth orbit nasa would provide contractual launch services however since nasa bases its charge on seriously flawed cost estimates wn mar the taxpayers would bear most of the expense this may look like environmental vandalism but mike lawson ceo of space marketing told us yesterday that the real purpose of the project is to help the environment the platform will carry ozone monitors he explained advertising is just to help defray costs what do you think of this revolting and hideous attempt to vandalize the night sky it is not even april anymore what about light pollution in observations i read somewhere else that it might even be visible during the day leave alone at night is nasa really supporting this junk are protesting groups being organized in the states really really depressed enzo vincenzo liguori enzo research canon oz au canon information systems research australia phone po box north ryde nsw fax
sci.space	re astronomy program in article galaxy ucr edu datadec ucrengr ucr edu kevin marcus writes are there any public domain or shareware astronomy programs which will map out the sky at any given time and allow you to locate planets nebulae and so forth if so is there any ftp site where i can get one i posted my public domain msdos program sunlight zip to sci astro yesterday it easily locates the sun moon and planets and can also be used to locate other objects if you input their right ascesion and declination use uudecode to extract robert sheaffer scepticus maximus sheaffer netcom com past chairman the bay area skeptics for whom i speak only when authorized marxism and feminism are one and that one is marxism heidi hartmann and amy bridges quoted by catharine mackinnon above the first chapter of her toward a feminist theory of the state
sci.space	re solar sail data higgins fnalf fnal gov bill higgins beam jockey writes snydefj eng auburn edu frank j snyder writes i am looking for any information concerning projects involving solar sails are there any groups out there currently involved in such a project bill says also there is a nontechnical book on solar sailing by louis friedman a technical one by a guy whose name escapes me help me out josh i presume the one you refer to is space sailing by jerome l wright he worked on solar sails while at jpl and as ceo of general astronautics i ll furnish ordering info upon request the friedman book is called starsailing solar sails and interstellar travel it was available from the planetary society a few years ago i don t know if it still is josh hopkins jbh uxa cso uiuc edu find a way or make one attributed to hannibal
sci.space	re proton centaur in article apr zeus calpoly edu jgreen trumpet calpoly edu james thomas green writes has anyone looked into the possiblity of a proton centaur combo i don t know a whole lot on proton but given that it is a multi stage rocket up to stages it may not really need the centaur plus it may end up seriously beating on said centaur also the centaur is not small unless the proton has an oversize shroud you may not be able to get the centaur in under it dennis you know much about this pat
sci.space	boom whoosh and one of my profs is the chief engineer for the project dr ron humble univ colorado at colorado springs i love the idea of an inflatable mile long sign it will be a really neat thing to see it explode when a bolt or even better a westford needle comes crashing into it at clicks a sec boom whooooooooshhhhhh sputter sputter okay pretend it would make a sound i hear insert favorite rumor here that it will supposedly coincide with the atlanta olympics fuzzy lt david fuzzy wells i want peace on earth o o hq afspacecom cna goodwill toward men we do debris we re the government we don t do that u ack wdwells esprit uccs edu that sort of thing sneakers
sci.space	re why not give billion to first year long moon residents in article apr iti org aws iti org allen w sherzer writes in article qve kinnpas sal sun usc edu schaefer sal sun usc edu peter schaefer writes announce that a reward of billion would go to the first corporation who successfully keeps at least person alive on the moon for a year oh gee a billion dollars that d be just about enough to cover the cost of the feasability study happy happy joy joy depends if you assume the existance of a working ssto like dc on billion would be enough to put about a quarter million pounds of stuff on the moon if some of that mass went to send equipment to make lox for the transfer vehicle you could send a lot more either way its a lot more than needed this prize isn t big enough to warrent developing a ssto but it is enough to do it if the vehicle exists allen lady astor sir if you were my husband i would poison your coffee w churchill madam if you were my wife i would drink it days to first flight of dcx or have different classes of competetors and made the total purse billion or billion depending on how many different classes there are as in auto racing motocycle racing and such we shall see how things go michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked
sci.space	re keeping spacecraft on after funding cuts some birds require constant management for survival pointing a sensor at the sun even when powered down may burn it out pointing a parabolic antenna at sol from venus orbit may trash the foci elements even if you let teh bird drift it may get hosed by some cosmic phenomena pat
sci.space	re jemison on star trek in article c sb p ib fs ece cmu edu loss fs ece cmu edu doug loss writes i saw in the newspaper last night that dr mae jemison the first black woman in space she s a physician and chemical engineer who flew on endeavour last year will appear as a transporter operator on the star trek the next generation episode that airs the week of may it s hardly space science i know but it s interesting doug loss interesting is rigth i wonder if they will make a mention of her being an astronaut in the credits i think it might help people connect the future of space with the present and give them an idea that we must go into space michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked
sci.space	re why not give billion to first year lo in article c szvl i oakhill sps mot com dong oakhill sps mot com writes i d be inclined to make the prize somewhat larger but g might be enough this all sounds like that indecent proposal movie wouldn t there be a lot of people that would try this with little hope of working just to get the dough if you have a chance and it costs you mil then you might pay some stooge a few grand to be your lucky hero just send up a few dozen and is bound to survive enough to make you rich any prize like this is going to need to be worded carefully enough that you cannot get it without demonstrating sustained and reliable capability rather than a lucky one shot it can be done all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	re moonbase race in article c sx y z cs cmu edu tm msu edu tom writes on the other hand if apollo cost billion for a few days or weeks in space in dollars then won t the reward have to be a lot more than only billion to get any takers apollo was done the hard way in a big hurry from a very limited technology base and on government contracts just doing it privately rather than as a government project cuts costs by a factor of several all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	sunrise sunset times hello i am looking for a program or algorithm that can be used to compute sunrise and sunset times i would appreciate any advice joe wetstein jpw coe drexel edu
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky in article c t k db research canon oz au enzo research canon oz au enzo liguori writes from the article what s new apr in sci physics research what s new in my opinion friday april washington dc space billboards is this one the spinoffs we were promised what about light pollution in observations i read somewhere else that it might even be visible during the day leave alone at night is nasa really supporting this junk are protesting groups being organized in the states really really depressed enzo i wouldn t worry about it there s enough space debris up there that a mile long inflatable would probably deflate in some very short period of time less than a year while cleaning up leo somewhat sort of a giant fly paper in orbit hmm that could actually be useful as for advertising sure why not a nasa friend and i spent one drunken night figuring out just exactly how much gold mylar we d need to put the golden arches of a certain american fast food organization on the face of the moon fortunately we sobered up in the morning todd
sci.space	lunar colony race by or okay here is what i have so far have a group any size preferibly small but send a human being to the moon set up a habitate and have the human s spend one earth year on the moon does that mean no resupply or need to find atleast billion for prize money contest open to different classes of participants new mexico state has semi challenged university of alaska any branch to put a team together and to do it any other university college institute of higher learning wish to make a counter challenge or challenge another school say it here i like the idea of having atleast a russian team some prefer using new technology others old or the basic idea of the new moon race is like the solar car race acrossed australia atleast in that basic vein of endevour any other suggestions michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked
sci.space	re looking for a little research help found it thanks i got several offers for help i appreciate it and will be contacting those people via e mail thanks again jennise
sci.space	old spacecraft as navigation beacons other idea for old space crafts is as navigation beacons and such why not if you can put them on safe pause mode why not have them be activated by a signal from a space craft manned to act as a naviagtion beacon to take a directional plot on wierd or what michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked
sci.space	re why not give billion to first year long moon residents the apollo program cost something like billion at a time when the value of a dollar was worth more than it is now no one would take the offer bruce watson wats scicom alphacdc com bulletin item extract
sci.space	re moonbase race hmm billion lesse i can probably launch tons to leo at million in five years which gives about tons to the lunar surface one way say five tons of that is a return vehicle and its fuel a bigger mercury or something might get that as low as two tons leaving fifteen tons for a one man habitat and a year s supplies gee with that sort of mass margins i can build the systems off the shelf for about another hundred million tops that leaves about million profit i like this idea let s see if you guys can push someone to make it happen slightly seriously george william herbert retro aerospace
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky in article c t k db research canon oz au enzo research canon oz au enzo liguori writes hideous vision of the future observers were startled this spring when a nasa launch vehicle arrived at the pad with schwarzenegger painted in huge block letters on the this is ok in my opinion as long as the stuff returns to earth what do you think of this revolting and hideous attempt to vandalize the night sky it is not even april anymore if this turns out to be true it s time to get seriously active in terrorism this is unbelievable who do those people think they are selling every bit that promises to make money i guess we really deserve being wiped out by uv radiation folks stupidity wins i guess that s true and if only by pure numbers another depressed planetary citizen hoover uwe hoover schuerkamp hoover mathematik uni bielefeld de clear skies fight light pollution
sci.space	re space station radio commercial in article c r i skates gsfc nasa gov xrcjd resolve gsfc nasa gov charles j divine writes a brief political cultural item radio station wgms in washington is a classical music station with a large audience among high officials elected and otherwise imagine a radio station that advertises mercedes benzes diamond jewelry expensive resorts and truthfully trident submarines this morning i heard a commercial for the space station project didn t catch the advertiser guess they re pulling out all the stops in the air force world at least the crisis escalates when scale models of the plane in question i e about to be sacrificed begin to arrive in key senators and congresspersons offices of course it is assumed that coffee mugs and other decorative junk has been tried earlier spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos c st kocrsv delcoelect com software technology delco electronics gm hughes electronics kokomo in i post therefore i armm
sci.space	re commercial mining activities on the moon dietz cs rochester edu paul dietz writes which merely evades the issue of why those lunatics are there at all and why their children would want to stay paul for the same reason that many other colonies are founded why not charlie prael dante shakala com shakala bbs clanzen radio network sunnyvale ca
sci.space	re boom whoosh matthew phantom gatech edu matthew deluca writes in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu wdwells nyx cs du edu david fuzzy wells writes i hear insert favorite rumor here that it will supposedly coincide with the atlanta olympics even worse the city of atlanta has a proposal before it to rent space on this orbiting billboard considering the caliber of people running this city there s no telling what we re going to have leering down at us from orbit i would just like to point out that it is much easier to place an object at orbital altitude than it is to place it with orbital velocity for a target km above the surface of earth you need a delta v of km s assuming that rockets with specific impulses of seconds are easy to produce a rocket with a dry weight of kg would require only about kg of fuel oxidizer a small dispersal charge embedded in about kg of sand or birdshot depending on the nature of the structure would be the payload i am sure the whole project is well within the capability of the amateur rocketry community it sounds like a good science fair project reduction of light pollution through applied ballistics or it could be part of the challenge prize being discussed here billion for the first person to spend year on the moon million for the first erradication of an orbital eyesore ccd burner i wouldpledge for the first person to bring it down and i am sure there are at least other astronomers nature lovers or just plain people of good taste who would do likewise of course a gerald bull solution might be simpler either the solution gerald bull would apply the use of a large caliber gun or the solution which was applied to gerald bull the use of a small caliber gun david m palmer palmer alumni caltech edu palmer tgrs gsfc nasa gov
sci.space	which gehrels was re comet in temporary orbit around jupiter in article apr sq sq com msb sq sq com mark brader writes also peri jove s of gehrels were thanks again one final question the name gehrels wasn t known to me before this thread came up but the may issue of scientific american has an article about the inconstant cosmos with a photo of neil gehrels project scientist for nasa s compton gamma ray observatory same person i would guess not dr neil gehrels of cgro is the son of dr tom gehrels of the university of arizona since he s long had research interests in asteroids and other solar system astronomy tom is the one more likely to have discovered a comet and thus had his name attached to it tom gehrels is a leader in the spacewatch project which has recently increased mankind s discovery rate on near earth asteroids they re finding a couple every month for much more on this interesting guy read his autobiography on a glassy sea do you know the asteroids mr kemp bill higgins hundreds of thousands of them all wandering around the sun in strange fermilab orbits some never named never charted the orphans of the solar higgins fnal fnal gov system mr kemp higgins fnal bitnet and you want to become a father moon zero two span hepnet higgins
sci.space	re old spacecraft as navigation beacons nsmca aurora alaska edu writes other idea for old space crafts is as navigation beacons and such why not if you can put them on safe pause mode why not have them be activated by a signal from a space craft manned to act as a naviagtion beacon to take a directional plot on wierd or what michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked there is a whole constellation of custom built navigation beacon satellites in the process of being phased out right now the transit oscar satellites are being replaced by gps or were you thinking of deep space navigation which is best done with doppler vlbi stellar measurements i do not think additional radio beacons would help much dave stephenson geological survey of canada ottawa ontario canada internet stephens geod emr ca
sci.space	re commercial mining activities on the moon in article steinly apr topaz ucsc edu steinly topaz ucsc edu steinn sigurdsson writes very cost effective if you use the right accounting method sherzer methodology software engineering that s like military intelligence isn t it sysmgr cadlab eng umd edu
sci.space	re moonbase race in article c teik z zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes apollo was done the hard way in a big hurry from a very limited technology base and on government contracts just doing it privately rather than as a government project cuts costs by a factor of several so how much would it cost as a private venture assuming you could talk the u s government into leasing you a couple of pads in florida software engineering that s like military intelligence isn t it sysmgr cadlab eng umd edu
sci.space	life on mars what is the deal with life on mars i save the face and heard associated theories which sound thin to me are we going back to mars to look at this face agian does anyone buy all the life theories don schiewer internet schiewer pa a inland com onward great inland steel uucp uucp pa a inland schiewer stream
sci.space	re moonbase race in article r o inn j mojo eng umd edu sysmgr king eng umd edu writes so how much would it cost as a private venture assuming you could talk the u s government into leasing you a couple of pads in florida why would you want to do that the goal is to do it cheaper remember this isn t government instead of leasing an expensive launch pad just use a ssto and launch from a much cheaper facility allen lady astor sir if you were my husband i would poison your coffee w churchill madam if you were my wife i would drink it days to first flight of dcx
sci.space	re level in article c sy s x cs cmu edu tm msu edu tom writes nick haines sez given that i ve heard the shuttle software rated as level in maturity i strongly doubt that this having lots of bugs is the case level out of how many what are the different levels i ve never heard of this rating system anyone care to clue me in this is a rating system used by arpa and other organisations to measure the maturity of a software process i e the entire process by which software gets designed written tested delivered supported etc see managing the software process by watts s humphrey addison wesley an excellent software engineering text the levels of software process maturity are initial repeatable defined managed optimizing the levels are approximately characterized as follows no statistically software process control have no statistical basis for estimating how large software will be how long it will take to produce how expensive it will be or how reliable it will be most software production is at this level stable process with statistical controls rigorous project management having done something once can do it again projects are planned in detail and there is software configuration management and quality assurance the process is defined and understood implementation is consistent this includes things like software inspection a rigorous software testing framework more configuration management and typically a software engineering process group within the project statistical information on the software is systematically gathered and analysed and the process is controlled on the basis of this information software quality is measured and has goals defects are prevented the process is automated software contracts are effective and certified nick haines nickh cmu edu
sci.space	re lunar colony race by or in article apr aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes okay here is what i have so far have a group any size preferibly small but send a human being to the moon set up a habitate and have the human s spend one earth year on the moon does that mean no resupply or need to find atleast billion for prize money my first thought is ross perot after further consideration i think he d be more likely to try to win it but come in a disappointing third try bill gates try sam walton s kids matt matthew feulner qmlink draper com
sci.space	re level in c sy s x cs cmu edu tm msu edu tom writes nick haines sez given that i ve heard the shuttle software rated as level in maturity i strongly doubt that this having lots of bugs is the case level out of how many what are the different levels i ve never heard of this rating system anyone care to clue me in sei level the highest level the sei stands for software engineering institute i m not sure but i believe that this rating only applies to the flight software also keep in mind that it was not achieved through the use of sophisticated tools but rather through a brute force and ignorance attack on the problem during the challenger standdown they simply threw hundreds of people at it and did the whole process by hand i would not consider receiving a warning status on systems which are not yet in use would detract much if anything from such a rating i ll have to get the latest copy of the guidelines to make sure they just issued new ones i think also keep in mind that the sei levels are concerned primarily with control of the software process the assumption is that a well controlled process will produce good software also keep in mind that sei level is damned hard most software in this country is produced by engineering practicies that only rate an sei level if that insisting on perfect safety is for people who don t have the balls to live in the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com i don t speak for others and they don t speak for me
sci.space	re conference on manned lunar exploration may crystal city in article c rhoc fty news cso uiuc edu jbh uxa cso uiuc edu josh hopkins writes i remeber reading the comment that general dynamics was tied into this in connection with their proposal for an early manned landing sorry i don t rember where i heard this but i m fairly sure it was somewhere reputable anyone else know anything on this angle if by that you mean anything on the gd approach there was an article on it in a recent avation week i don t remember the exact date but it was recent allen lady astor sir if you were my husband i would poison your coffee w churchill madam if you were my wife i would drink it days to first flight of dcx
sci.space	re why not give billion to first year long moon residents in article c sjdp f zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes this prize isn t big enough to warrent developing a ssto but it is enough to do it if the vehicle exists actually there are people who will tell you that it would be enough to do ssto development if done privately as a cut rate operation of course they may be over optimistic in spite of my great respect for the people you speak of i think their cost estimates are a bit over optimistic if nothing else a working ssto is at least as complex as a large airliner and has a smaller experience base it therefore seems that ssto development should cost at least as much as a typical airliner development that puts it in the g to g range you can also assume that a working ssto would have other applications that would help pay for its development costs true it and the contest would result in a much larger market but i don t think it would be enough to attract the investors given the risks involved if you could gurantee the ssto costs and gurantee that it captures of the available launch market then i think you could do it allen lady astor sir if you were my husband i would poison your coffee w churchill madam if you were my wife i would drink it days to first flight of dcx
sci.space	lindbergh and the moon was why not give g all of this talk about a commercial space race i e g to the first year moon base is intriguing similar prizes have influenced aerospace development before the k orteig prize helped lindbergh sell his spirit of saint louis venture to his financial backers if memory serves the k prize would not have been enough to totally reimburse some of the more expensive transatlantic projects such as fokker s nungesser and other multi engine projects however lindbergh ultimately kept his total costs below that amount but i strongly suspect that his saint louis backers had the foresight to realize that much more was at stake than could it work with the moon who are the far sighted financial backers of today layne cook cook apt mdc com mcdonnell douglas space systems co
sci.space	re life on mars in article apr pa a inland com don schiewer schiewer pa a inland com writes what is the deal with life on mars i save the face and heard associated theories which sound thin to me are we going back to mars to look at this face agian does anyone buy all the life theories try alt alien visitors
sci.space	re boom whoosh in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu wdwells nyx cs du edu david fuzzy wells writes i hear insert favorite rumor here that it will supposedly coincide with the atlanta olympics even worse the city of atlanta has a proposal before it to rent space on this orbiting billboard considering the caliber of people running this city there s no telling what we re going to have leering down at us from orbit matthew deluca georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism matthew internet matthew phantom gatech edu
sci.space	re lunar colony race by or in article apr draper com mrf egbsun nosubdomain nodomain matthew r feulner writes need to find atleast billion for prize money my first thought is ross perot after further consideration i think he d be more likely to try to win it but come in a disappointing third try bill gates try sam walton s kids when the lunar society s m estimate of the cost of a lunar colony was mentioned at making orbit somebody asked jerry pournelle have you talked to bill gates the answer yes he says that if he were going to sink that much money into it he d want to run it and he doesn t have the time somebody then asked him about perot answer having ross perot on your board may be a bigger problem than not having the money all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	re life on mars in article apr pa a inland com schiewer pa a inland com don schiewer writes what is the deal with life on mars i save the face and heard associated theories which sound thin to me the face is an accident of light and shadow there are many faces in landforms on earth none is artificial well excluding mount rushmore and the like there is also a smiley face on mars and a kermit the frog the question of life in a more mundane sense bacteria or the like is not quite closed although the odds are against it and the most that the more orthodox exobiologists are hoping for now is fossils there are currently no particular plans to do any further searches for life are we going back to mars to look at this face agian mars observer currently approaching mars will probably try to get a better image or two of the face at some point it s not high priority nobody takes it very seriously the shadowed half of the face does not look very face like so all it will take is one shot at a different sun angle to ruin the illusion all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	re commercial mining activities on the moon in article r j inn j mojo eng umd edu sysmgr king eng umd edu doug mohney writes in article steinly apr topaz ucsc edu steinly topaz ucsc edu steinn sigurdsson writes very cost effective if you use the right accounting method sherzer methodology hell yes i m not going to let a bunch of seven suits tell me what the right way to estimate cost effectiveness is at least not until they can make their mind up long enough to leave their scheme stable for a fiscal year or two seriously though if you were to ask the british government whether their colonisation efforts in the americas were cost effective what answer do you think you d get what if you asked in and respectively steinn sigurdsson lick observatory steinly lick ucsc edu standard disclaimer if you ever have to go to shoeburyness take the a road the ok road that s the best go motoring on the a bb
sci.space	re level in article apr mksol dseg ti com mccall mksol dseg ti com fred j mccall writes given that i ve heard the shuttle software rated as level level out of how many also keep in mind that it was not achieved through the use of sophisticated tools but rather through a brute force and ignorance attack on the problem during the challenger standdown they simply threw hundreds of people at it and did the whole process by hand i think this is a little inaccurate based on feynman s account of the software development process before the standdown fred is basically correct no sophisticated tools just a lot of effort and painstaking care but they got this one right before challenger feynman cited the software people as exemplary compared to the engine people he also noted that the software people were starting to feel management pressure to cut corners but hadn t had to give in to it much yet among other things the software people worked very hard to get things right for the major pre flight simulations and considered a failure during those simulations to be nearly as bad as an in flight failure as a result the number of major simulation failures could be counted on one hand and the number of in flight failures was zero as fred mentioned elsewhere this applies only to the flight software software that runs experiments is typically mostly put together by the experimenters and gets nowhere near the same level of tender loving care none of the experimenters could afford it all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	re navstar positions c s bird may be flaking out and expecting to die soon or c may orbit over major users areas and it may be needed to provide redundancy on that plane while b may orbit over hicksville and not have muc of a user community pat
sci.space	re lindbergh and the moon was why not give g in article r nuvinnjep lynx unm edu cook varmit mdc com layne cook writes all of this talk about a commercial space race i e g to the first year moon base is intriguing similar prizes have influenced aerospace development before the k orteig prize helped lindbergh sell his spirit of saint louis venture to his financial backers but i strongly suspect that his saint louis backers had the foresight to realize that much more was at stake than could it work with the moon who are the far sighted financial backers of today the commercial uses of a transportation system between already settled and civilized areas are obvious spaceflight is not in this position the correct analogy is not with aviation of the s but the long transocean voyages of the age of discovery it didn t require gov t to fund these as long as something was known about the potential for profit at the destination in practice some were gov t funded some were private but there was no way that any wise investor would spend a large amount of money on a very risky investment with no idea of the possible payoff i am sure that a thriving spaceflight industry will eventually develop and large numbers of people will live and work off earth but if you ask me for specific justifications other than the increased resource base i can t give them we just don t know enough the launch rate demanded by existing space industries is just too low to bring costs down much and we are very much in the dark about what the revolutionary new space industries will be when they will practical how much will have to be invested to start them etc keith mancus mancus butch jsc nasa gov n wvr mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov black powder and alcohol when your states and cities fall when your back s against the wall leslie fish
sci.space	re life on mars in article c ub s fd zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes in article apr pa a inland com schiewer pa a inland com don schiewer writes there are currently no particular plans to do any further searches for life not quite true one of the instruments on mars observer will be searching for potential fossil sites are we going back to mars to look at this face agian mars observer currently approaching mars will probably try to get a better image or two of the face at some point it s not high priority nobody takes it very seriously the shadowed half of the face does not look very face like so all it will take is one shot at a different sun angle to ruin the illusion the face and the viking landing sites will be targeted by the high resolution camera on mars observer ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab m s telos the aweto from new zealand pasadena ca is part caterpillar and part vegetable
sci.space	re first spacewalk in article c sumg rf cs cmu edu flb flb optiplan fi f baube tm writes at one time there was speculation that the first spacewalk alexei leonov was a staged fake has any evidence to support or contradict this claim emerged was this claim perhaps another fevered cold war hallucination this claim was made when someone spotted training film footage spliced into the footage of the actual spacewalk dennis newkirk dennisn ecs comm mot com motorola land mobile products sector schaumburg il
sci.space	re keeping spacecraft on after funding cuts in article apr zeus calpoly edu jgreen trumpet calpoly edu james thomas green writes why do spacecraft have to be shut off after funding cuts for example why couldn t magellan just be told to go into a safe mode and stay bobbing about venus in a low power use mode and if maybe in a few years if funding gets restored after the economy gets better hopefully it could be turned on again one consideration to remember is that if you don t turn it off now you may not be able to later this isn t a case of reaching over and flipping a switch much of the spacecraft has to be working correctly to execute a turn off command successfully spacecraft do malfunction in their old age the big concern is not radio clutter from idle spacecraft but radio clutter from malfunctioning spacecraft that can no longer be turned off all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	re proton centaur in article r aii ivs access digex net prb access pat writes in article apr zeus calpoly edu jgreen trumpet calpoly edu james thomas green writes has anyone looked into the possiblity of a proton centaur combo i don t know a whole lot on proton but given that it is a multi stage rocket up to stages it may not really need the centaur plus it may end up seriously beating on said centaur the proton has been used in and stage versions the two stage version was used for the first launches while the and stage versions are used today the four stage version is used mostly for escape and geosynchronous orbits while the stage version is used for low earth orbits since this is the version that launched mir and the salyuts and the add on modules for mir as long as centaur is smaller than mir which i believe it is it should fit under the shroud i vaguely recall that the russians are developing a lh lox upper stage for the proton chris jones clj ksr com
sci.space	re why not give billion to first year long moon residents in article apr iti org aws iti org allen w sherzer writes in article c sjdp f zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes in spite of my great respect for the people you speak of i think their cost estimates are a bit over optimistic if nothing else a working ssto is at least as complex as a large airliner and has a smaller experience base it therefore seems that ssto development should cost at least as much as a typical airliner development that puts it in the g to g range alan don t forget a huge cost for airliner developement is faa certification the joke is when the paperwork exceeds teh weight of the airplane it will fly the sr and teh x both highly ambitious aero space projects were done on very narrow engineering budgets partly because they didn t spend much on paper pushing there is some company in missouri trying to get funding to build light commercial transporters on a low cost basis mostly by reducing faa certification costs pat
sci.space	re boom whoosh in article r ofinndku gap caltech edu palmer cco caltech edu david m palmer writes orbiting billboard i would just like to point out that it is much easier to place an object at orbital altitude than it is to place it with orbital velocity for a target km above the surface of earth you need a delta v of km s assuming that rockets with specific impulses of seconds are easy to produce a rocket with a dry weight of kg would require only about kg of fuel oxidizer unfortunately if you launch this from the us or are a us citizen you will need a launch permit from the office of commercial space transportation and i think it may be difficult to get a permit for an antisatellite weapon the threshold at which ocst licensing kicks in is roughly km the rules are actually phrased in more complex ways but that is the result all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	inflatable mile long space billboards was re vandalizing the sky in article c t k db research canon oz au enzo research canon oz au enzo liguori writes what s new in my opinion friday april washington dc space billboards is this one the spinoffs we were promised in science fiction writer robert heinlein published the man who sold the moon which involved a dispute over the sale of rights to the moon for use as billboard nasa has taken the firsteps toward this hideous vision of the future observers were startled this spring when a nasa launch vehicle arrived at the pad with schwarzenegger painted in huge block letters on the side of the booster rockets space marketing inc had arranged for the ad to promote arnold s latest movie well if you re going to get upset with this you might as well direct some of this moral outrage towards glavcosmos as well they pioneered this capitalist application of booster adverts long before nasa sign of the times a sony logo on a soyuz launcher now space marketing is working with university of colorado and livermore engineers on a plan to place a mile long inflatable billboard in low earth orbit this sounds like something lowell wood would think of does anyone know if he s involved nasa would provide contractual launch services however since nasa bases its charge on seriously flawed cost estimates wn mar the taxpayers would bear most of the expense this may look like environmental vandalism but mike lawson ceo of space marketing told us yesterday that the real purpose of the project is to help the environment the platform will carry ozone monitors he explained advertising is just to help defray costs this may be the purpose for the university of colorado people my guess is that the purpose for the livermore people is to learn how to build large inflatable space structures what do you think of this revolting and hideous attempt to vandalize the night sky it is not even april anymore if this is true i think it s a great idea learning how to build to build structures in space in an essential step towards space development and given that freedom appears to be shrinking towards the vanishing point i question whether nasa s space station is going to provide much if any knowledge in this area especially if a design such as faget s wingless orbiter is chosen if such a project also monitors ozone depletion and demonstrates creative use of partial private sector funding in the process so much the better is nasa really supporting this junk and does anyone have any more details other than what was in the wn news blip how serious is this project is this just in the wild idea stage or does it have real funding are protesting groups being organized in the states not yet though if this project goes through i suppose the return of jeremy rifkin is inevitable brian yamauchi case western reserve university yamauchi alpha ces cwru edu department of computer engineering and science
sci.space	re why not give billion to first year lo in article apr iti org aws iti org allen w sherzer wrote in article c sjdp f zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes this prize isn t big enough to warrent developing a ssto but it is enough to do it if the vehicle exists actually there are people who will tell you that it would be enough to do ssto development if done privately as a cut rate operation of course they may be over optimistic in spite of my great respect for the people you speak of i think their cost estimates are a bit over optimistic if nothing else a working ssto is at least as complex as a large airliner and has a smaller experience base it therefore seems that ssto development should cost at least as much as a typical airliner development that puts it in the g to g range for the purpose of a contest i d bet some things could be cut like fuel for re entry any kind of heat shielding etc etc even still if the contest participants had to fund dc development it probably wouldn t be worth it to develop dc just for the contest just give me the cheapest heaviest lift man rated or at least under or so gs booster if i don t have to pay for dc development great i ll use it but back to the contest goals there was a recent article in aw st about a low cost it s all relative manned return to the moon a general dynamics scheme involving a titan iv shuttle to lift a centaur upper stage lev and crew capsule the mission consists of delivering two unmanned payloads to the lunar surface followed by a manned mission total cost us was billion joint esa nasa project was billion for the us share i didn t find a mention of how long the crew could stay but i d bet that its around days and the total payload delivered was about metric tonnes so if you ignore the scientific payload hitch a ride in the crew habitation module no return trip and toss in a few more tonnes for the additional consumables to last another months then you might be able to get a year visit out of tonnes and in case its not obvious that s a wild ass guess a pretty boring visit since every trip outdoors eats up a bit of lox and i m not certain if a home brewed or college brewed life support system could last a year but let s round this up to tonnes convient since the gd plan talks about ton payloads delivered to the lunar surface this adds up to two centaurs two levs two shuttle flights all to put a single man on the moon for a year hmmm not really practical anyone got a cheaper better way of delivering tonnes to the lunar surface within the decade anyone have a more precise guess about how much a year s supply of consumables and equipment would weigh and i was wondering about the gd lev is it reusable or is it discarded to burn up on return to leo if its not discarded could it be refueled henry do you know anything about the gd lev i noted that it uses rl engines aren t they reusable restartable would a lev fit in a dc i ve forgotten if i ever knew what the cargo bay dimensions are for the dc all in all i m not certain that the single goal prize of staying on the moon for a year is wise and or useful how about a prize for the first non government sponsered unmanned moon landing then another for a manned moon landing then yet another for a system to extract consumables from lunar soil another for a reusable earth moon shuttle and so forth find some way to build civilian moonbase infrastructure having a single goal might result in a bunch of contestents giving up after one person appeared to win and for those that didn t give up i find something a little scary about a half dozen people huddling in rickety little moon shelters i d like to see as much a reward for co operation as for competition lastly about ten or fifteen years back i seem to recall that there was an english space magazine that had an on going discussion about moonbases on the cheap i recalled it discussed things like how much heat the human body produced how much lunar material it d need for protection from solar flares etc unfortunately i don t remember the name of this magazine does this ring a bell to anyone craig keithley i don t remember i don t recall apple computer inc i got no memory of anything at all keithley apple com peter gabriel third album
sci.space	re comet in temporary orbit around jupiter also peri jove s of gehrels were april jupiter radii august jupiter radii where jupiter radius km mi au sorry perijoves i m not used to talking this language thanks again one final question the name gehrels wasn t known to me before this thread came up but the may issue of scientific american has an article about the inconstant cosmos with a photo of neil gehrels project scientist for nasa s compton gamma ray observatory same person mark brader softquad inc toronto information we want information utzoo sq msb msb sq com the prisoner this article is in the public domain
sci.space	iapetus saturn eclipse forwarded from john spencer spencer lowell edu there will be two eclipses of iapetus by saturn and its rings in may and july please spread the word here s some information about the events and then a couple of messages from jay goguen of jpl appealing for thermal observations of the eclipse to learn more about the thermal properties of iapetus he might also have some money available john spencer iapetus will be eclipsed by the shadows of saturn s rings and saturn itself on ut and again on ut timing is as follows may a ring ingress egress b ring ingress egress c ring egress saturn ingress egress b ring ingress egress a ring ingress egress july saturn ingress egress a ring ingress grazing egress times could be minutes later according to an alternate ephemeris and photometric observations are important for refining iapetus orbit because the sun s size projected on the rings as seen from iapetus is km it s unlikely that we will learn anything new about the rings themselves from the observations see soma astronomy and astrophysics l l for more details thanks to andy odell of northern arizona university for bringing the events to my attention thermal observations jay goguen jdg scn jpl nasa gov writes to me the interesting thing to do would be thermal ir of the july disappearance into the shadow of the planet to measure thermal inertia etc unfortunately the ut of this event renders it inaccessible except from russia even from calar alto saturn is rising through airmasses at ut do you know anyone in russia or ukraine with a big telescope and um instrumentation that s looking for something to do i d be willing to make a personal grant of for the data jay and again please try to encourage anyone that can observe the iapetus planet disappearance to do so at thermal wavelengths my impression would be that it s not an easy observation iapetus will be faint and getting fainter in eclipse so you ll need a big telescope that s a good ir telescope and reasonable um instrumentation i don t think that combination is widely available at the longitudes that are well placed for observation we need sofia for this one one possibility would be the ir telescope in india but it s only a m jay ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab m s telos the aweto from new zealand pasadena ca is part caterpillar and part vegetable
sci.space	space colony size preferences summary some time ago i sent the following message every once in a while i design an orbital space colony i m gearing up to do another one i d some info from you if you were to move onto a space colony to live permanently how big would the colony have to be for you to view a permanent move as desirable specifically how many people do you want to share the colony with what physical dimensions does the living are need to have assume g living the colony will rotate assume that you can leave from time to time for vacations and business trips if you re young enough assume that you ll raise your children there i didn t get a lot of responses and they were all over the block thanx muchly to all those who responded it is good food for thought here s the edited responses i got how many people do you want to share the colony with what physical dimensions does the living are need to have cylinder m diameter x km long rui sousa ruca saber si pt how many people do you want to share the colony with what physical dimensions does the living are need to have square kms surface divided into city towns villages and countryside must have lakes rivers amd mountains how many people really isn t that large a number everyone will know everyone else within the space of a year and will probably be sick of everyone else within another year what physical dimensions does the living are need to have hm i am not all that great at figuring it out but i would maximize the percentage of colony space that is accessible to humans esecially if there were to be children since they will figure out how to go everywhere anyways and everyone especially me likes to go exploring i would want to be able to go for a walk and see something different each time for population i think i would want a substantial town big enough to have strangers in it this helps get away from the small town everybody knows everything syndrome which some people like but i don t call it several thousand people for physical dimensions a somewhat similar criterion big enough to contain surprises at least until you spent considerable time getting to know it as a more specific rule of thumb big enough for there to be places at least an hour away on foot call that km which means a km circumference if we re talking a sphere henry spencer at u of toronto zoology henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry my desires for permanent move to a space colony assuming easy communication and travel size about a small town size say sq km course bigger is better population about sq km or less so for sqkm less is better for elbow room more for interest and sanity so say max min tommy mac tom mcwilliams work inhale to the chief tm ibm cl msu edu hm zonker harris in
sci.space	re navstar positions you have missed something there is a big difference between being in the same plane and in exactly the same state positions and velocities equal in addition to this there has always been redundancies proposed bob robert w mcgwier n hy ccr p ida org center for communications research interests amateur radio astronomy golf princeton n j asst scoutmaster troop hightstown
sci.space	re keeping spacecraft on after funding cuts in article apr kelvin jpl nasa gov baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov ron baalke writes in article apr zeus calpoly edu jgreen trumpet calpoly edu james thomas green writes why do spacecraft have to be shut off after funding cuts for example why couldn t magellan just be told to go into a safe mode and stay bobbing about venus in a low power use mode and if maybe in a few years if funding gets restored after the economy gets better hopefully it could be turned on again it can be but the problem is a political one not a technical one also remember that every dollar spent keeping one spacecraft in safe mode probably a spin stabilized sun pointing orientation is a dollar not spent on mission analysis for a newer spacecraft in order to turn the spacecraft back on you either need to insure that the ops guys will be available or you need to retrain a new team having said that there are some spacecraft that do what you have proposed many of the operational satellites goddard flies like the tiros noaa series require more than one satellite in orbit for an operational set extras which get replaced on orbit are powered into a standby mode for use in an emergency in that case however the same ops team is still required to fly the operational birds so the standby maintenance is relatively cheap finally pat s explanation some spacecraft require continuous maintenance to stay under control is also right on the mark i suggested a spin stabilized control mode because it would require little power or maintenance but it still might require some momentum dumping from time to time in the end it is a political decision since the difference is money but there is some technical rationale behind the decision david w gsfc
sci.space	re what if the ussr had reached the moon first in article apr ke zv uucp gary ke zv uucp gary coffman writes why do you think at least a couple centuries before there will be significant commerical activity on the moon wishful thinking mostly lots of stuff about how the commerical moonbase fantasyland then what do you believe will finally motivate people to leave the earth i m not trying to flame you i just want to know where you stand chuck chuck chung o duke university dept of physics h durham n c cchung phy duke edu if pro is the opposite of con then what is the opposite of progress
sci.space	re proton centaur in article apr zeus calpoly edu jgreen trumpet calpoly edu james thomas green writes has anyone looked into the possiblity of a proton centaur combo what would be the benefits and problems with such a combo other than the obvious instability in the xssr now i haven t seen any speculation about it but the salyut kb design bureau was planning a new lh lox second stage for the proton which would boost payload to leo from about to kg geostationary goes from kg gals launcher version to kg this scheme was competing with the energia m last year and i haven t heard which won except now i recently read that the central specialized kb was working on the successor to the soyuz booster which must be the energia m so the early results are energia m won but this is a guess nothing is very clear in russia i m sure if salyut kb gets funds from someone they will continue their development the centaur for the altas is about meters dia and the proton is so that s a good fit for their existing upper stage the block d which sets inside a shround just under meters dia i don t know about launch loads etc but since the centaur survives titan launches which are probably worse than the proton those titan srb s probably shake things up pretty good it seems feasible except the centaur is a very fragile thing and may require integration on the pad which is not available now protons are assembled and transported horizontially does anyone know how much stress in the way of a payload a centaur could support while bolted to a proton horizontally and then taken down the rail road track and erected on the pad they would also need lox and lh facilities added to the proton pads unless the new proton second stage is actually built and of course any centaur support systems and facilities no doubt imported from the us at great cost these systems may viloate us law so there are political problems to solve in addition to the instabilities in the cis you mention dennis newkirk dennisn ecs comm mot com motorola land mobile products sector schaumburg il
sci.space	level according to a software engineering professor here what was actually rated level five was an ibm unit which produced part of the software for the shuttle by not means all of it interesting note of the software development groups surveyed were at level the ibm shuttle groups was the only one at level c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c nathan f wallace c c reality is c c e mail wallacen cs colostate edu c c ancient alphaean proverb c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c
sci.space	re proton centaur in article apr lmpsbbs comm mot com dennisn ecs comm mot com dennis newkirk writes in article apr zeus calpoly edu jgreen trumpet calpoly edu james thomas green writes has anyone looked into the possiblity of a proton centaur combo what would be the benefits and problems with such a combo other than the obvious instability in the xssr now the centaur for the altas is about meters dia and the proton is so that s a good fit for their existing upper stage the block d which sets inside a shround just under meters dia i don t know about launch loads etc but since the centaur survives titan launches which are probably worse than the proton those titan srb s probably shake things up pretty good it seems feasible except the centaur is a very fragile thing and may require integration on the pad which is not available now protons are assembled and transported horizontially does anyone know how much stress in the way of a payload a centaur could support while bolted to a proton horizontally and then taken down the rail road track and erected on the pad the centaur that is being built for t would be a better bet to integrate onto the proton as the t centaur is designed for the extremely harsh envorinment of the t launch it is also closer to m in diameter you ve hit on the real kicker however the centaur is pressure stabilized it cannot hold up its own weight without pressure in the tanks additionally the pressure difference between the two tanks must be maintained to psi that is rather tight to be rocking and rolling on the train the pressure stabilization is how centaur achieves the performance on numerous occasions when i was there the af wanted to see what it would take to make a non pressure stabilized centaur the answer a centaur not worth launching the atlas centaur does not require on pad integration however the t centaur does i believe the on pad integration is to a great extent due to the cleanliness requirements and pfl configuration so maybe something can be done there they would also need lox and lh facilities added to the proton pads unless the new proton second stage is actually built and of course any centaur support systems and facilities no doubt imported from the us at great cost these systems may viloate us law so there are political problems to solve in addition to the instabilities in the cis you mention the addition of lox lh facilities is critical as the centaur tops off as it lifts off a lhe facility is also needed i don t know what the proton uses for fuel but since they are derived from icbm s i would suspect that they use storable propellants which don t have the ullage problem that cryo s do if there is no cryo at the sight at all the addition of these systems could be big not to mention the real tech transfer issues involved with providing centaur gse to russia that issue alone might be enough to kill this idea h d stevens stanford university email hdsteven sun valley stanford edu aerospace robotics laboratory phone lab durand building bullpen stanford ca fax
sci.space	re keeping spacecraft on after funding cuts prb access digex com pat pontificated some birds require constant management for survival pointing a sensor at the sun even when powered down may burn it out pointing a parabolic antenna at sol from venus orbit may trash the foci elements what i was getting at in my post is whether or not it might be possible to put enough brains on board future deep space probes for them to automatically avoid such things as looking at the sun or going into an uncontrolled tumble i heard once that the voyagers had a failsafe routine built in that essentially says if you never hear from earth again here s what to do this was a back up in the event a receiver burnt out but the probe could still send data limited but still some data even if you let teh bird drift it may get hosed by some cosmic phenomena since this would be a shutdown that may never be refunded for startup if some type of cosmic bem took out the probe it might not be such a big loss obviously you can t plan for everything but the most obvious things can be considered james t green jgreen oboe calpoly edu i know you believe you understand what it is that you think i said but i am not sure that you realize that what i said is not what i meant
sci.space	re inflatable mile long space billboards was re vandalizing the sky in article yamauchi apr yuggoth ces cwru edu yamauchi ces cwru edu brian yamauchi writes nasa would provide contractual launch services however since nasa bases its charge on seriously flawed cost estimates wn mar the taxpayers would bear most of the expense this may look like environmental vandalism but mike lawson ceo of space marketing told us yesterday that the real purpose of the project is to help the environment the platform will carry ozone monitors he explained advertising is just to help defray costs this may be the purpose for the university of colorado people my guess is that the purpose for the livermore people is to learn how to build large inflatable space structures the cu people have been and continue to be big ozone scientists so this is consistent it is also consistent with the new comercial applications that nasa and clinton are pushing so hard is nasa really supporting this junk did anyone catch the rocket that was launched with a movie advert all over it i think the rocket people got alot of for painting up the sides with the movie stuff what about the coke pepsi thing a few years back nasa has been trying to find ways to get other people into the space funding business for some time frankly i ve thought about trying it too when the funding gets tight only the innovative get funded one of the things nasa is big on is co funding if a pi can show co funding for any proposal that proposal has a significantly higher probability of being funded than a proposal with more merit but no co funding once again money talks h d stevens stanford university email hdsteven sun valley stanford edu aerospace robotics laboratory phone lab durand building bullpen stanford ca fax
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky in article c t k db research canon oz au enzo research canon oz au enzo liguori writes from the article what s new apr in sci physics research what s new in my opinion friday april washington dc space billboards is this one the spinoffs we were promised in science fiction writer robert heinlein published the man who sold the moon which involved a dispute over the sale of rights to the moon for use as billboard nasa has taken the firsteps toward this hideous vision of the future observers were startled this spring when a nasa launch vehicle arrived at the pad with schwarzenegger painted in huge block letters on the side of the booster rockets things could be worse a lot worse in the mid eighties the teen adult sci fi comic ad fleetway produced a short story featuring the award winning character judge dredd the story focussed on an advertising agency of the future who use high powered multi coloured lasers search lights pointed at the moon to paint images on the moon needless to say this use hacked off a load of lovers romantics and werewolfs crazies the ad guys got chopped the service discontinued a cautionary tale indeed marvin batty marvin batty djf uk ac cov cck and they shall not find those things with a sort of rafia like base that their fathers put there just the night before at about o clock
sci.space	re mars observer update hiya i m a very amuture astronomer in adelaide australia and today i heard some very interesting and exciting news from a local program on tv as i couldn t find anything on it on the news server i have posted this however if it is old information tell me and ill sue the tv station for saying they are up to date also my news server could be slow so i only caught the end of the article so all the information on the topic is not known to me at the moment the news is of a small psudo planet outside the orbit of pluto found in a hawiian obsevatory supposably recently acording to the report it was meant to be about miles in diamater and a faily large distance from the plutos orbit it had a computer drawing and the orbit distance from pluto was about the same as neptune to pluto when they are furthest apart this is all i found out about it oh it is called karna un officially can anyone give any more information to me on it thanx brendan woithe swoithe crackle aelmg adelaide edu au btw if this is old news does anyone know a good lawyer
sci.space	vandalizing the sky yamauchi ces cwru edu brian yamauchi writes enzo research canon oz au enzo liguori writes what s new in my opinion friday april washington dc space billboards is this one the spinoffs we were promised in science fiction writer robert heinlein published the man who sold the moon which involved a dispute over the sale of rights to the moon for use as billboard nasa has taken the firsteps toward this hideous vision of the future observers were startled this spring when a nasa launch vehicle arrived at the pad with schwarzenegger painted in huge block letters on the side of the booster rockets space marketing inc had arranged for the ad to promote arnold s latest movie well if you re going to get upset with this you might as well direct some of this moral outrage towards glavcosmos as well they pioneered this capitalist application of booster adverts long before nasa in fact you can all direct your ire at the proper target by ingoring nasa altogether the rocket is a commercial launch vechicle a conestoga flying a comet payload nasa is simply the primary customer i believe sdio has a small payload as well the advertising space was sold by the owners of the rocket who can do whatever they darn well please with it in addition these anonymous observers had no reason to be startled the deal made space news at least twice now space marketing is working with university of colorado and livermore engineers on a plan to place a mile long inflatable billboard in low earth orbit nasa would provide contractual launch services however since nasa bases its charge on seriously flawed cost estimates wn mar the taxpayers would bear most of the expense is nasa really supporting this junk and does anyone have any more details other than what was in the wn news blip how serious is this project is this just in the wild idea stage or does it have real funding i think its only fair to find that out before everyone starts having a hissy fit the fact that they bothered to use the conditional tense suggests that it has not yet been approved josh hopkins jbh uxa cso uiuc edu find a way or make one attributed to hannibal
sci.space	re lindbergh and the moon was why not give g mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov keith mancus writes cook varmit mdc com layne cook writes all of this talk about a commercial space race i e g to the first year moon base is intriguing similar prizes have influenced aerospace development before the k orteig prize helped lindbergh sell his spirit of saint louis venture to his financial backers but i strongly suspect that his saint louis backers had the foresight to realize that much more was at stake than could it work with the moon who are the far sighted financial backers of today the commercial uses of a transportation system between already settled and civilized areas are obvious spaceflight is not in this position the correct analogy is not with aviation of the s but the long transocean voyages of the age of discovery lindbergh s flight took place in not the thirties it didn t require gov t to fund these as long as something was known about the potential for profit at the destination in practice some were gov t funded some were private could you give examples of privately funded ones but there was no way that any wise investor would spend a large amount of money on a very risky investment with no idea of the possible payoff your logic certainly applies to standard investment strategies however the concept of a prize for a difficult goal is done for different reasons i suspect i m not aware that mr orteig received any significant economic benefit from lindbergh s flight modern analogies such as the prize for a human powered helicopter face similar arguments there is little economic benefit in such a thing the advantage comes in the new approaches developed and the fact that a prize will frequently generate far more work than the equivalent amount of direct investment would a person who puts up x billion for a moon base is much more likely to do it because they want to see it done than because they expect to make money off the deal josh hopkins jbh uxa cso uiuc edu find a way or make one attributed to hannibal
sci.space	crazy or just imaginitive i have a nice quote that i like or as close as i can remember it if i say something that you think is crazy ask me what i mean before you think its crazy so some of my ideas are a bit odd off the wall and such but so was wilbur and orville wright and quite a few others sorry if i do not have the big degrees and such but i think i might be wrong to error is human i have something that is in many ways just as important i have imagination dreams and without dreams all the knowledge is worthless sorry my two cents worth or is it two rubles worth the basic quote idea is from h beam pipers book space vikings its a good book on how civilization can fall and how it can be raised to new heights unfortunately h beam piper killed him self just weeks short of having his first book published and have his ideas see light such a waste
sci.space	re moonbase race nasa resources why in article r o inn j mojo eng umd edu sysmgr king eng umd edu doug mohney writes in article c teik z zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes apollo was done the hard way in a big hurry from a very limited technology base and on government contracts just doing it privately rather than as a government project cuts costs by a factor of several so how much would it cost as a private venture assuming you could talk the u s government into leasing you a couple of pads in florida software engineering that s like military intelligence isn t it sysmgr cadlab eng umd edu why must it be a us government space launch pad directly i mean i know of a few that could launch a small package into space not including ariadne and the russian sites i know poker flats here in alaska thou used to be only sounding rockets for auroral borealous sp and other northern atmospheric items is at last i heard being upgraded to be able to put sattelites into orbit why must people in the us be fixed on using nasas direct resources poker flats is runin part by nasa but also by the univesity of alaska and the geophysical institute sounds like typical us cultural centralism and protectionism and people wonder why we have the multi trillion dollar deficite sp yes i am working on a spell checker michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked
sci.space	surviving large accelerations hi i was reading through the spaceflight handbook and somewhere in there the author discusses solar sails and the forces acting on them when and if they try to gain an initial acceleration by passing close to the sun in a hyperbolic orbit the magnitude of such accelerations he estimated to be on the order of g he also says that this is may not be a big problem for manned craft because humans and this was published in have already withstood accelerations of g all this is very long winded but here s my question finally are g accelerations in fact humanly tolerable with the aid of any mechanical devices of course if these are possible what is used to absorb the acceleration can this be extended to larger accelerations thanks is advance amruth laxman
sci.space	eco freaks forcing space mining here is a way to get the commericial companies into space and mineral exploration basically get the eci freaks to make it so hard to get the minerals on earth you think this is crazy well in a way it is but in a way it is reality there is a billin the congress to do just that basically to make it so expensive to mine minerals in the us unless you can by off the inspectors or tax collectors ascially what i understand from talking to a few miner friends of mine that they the congress propose to have a tax on the gross income of the mine versus the adjusted income also the state governments have there normal taxes so by the time you get done paying for materials workers and other expenses you can owe more than what you made basically if you make a and spend ofor expenses you can owe in federal taxes bascially it is driving the miners off the land and the only peopel who benefit are the eco freaks basically to get back to my beginning statement is space is the way to go cause it might just get to expensive to mine on earth because of either the eco freaks or the protectionist such fun we have in these interesting times michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked
sci.space	ssrt roll out speech ssrt rollout speech delivered by col simon p worden the deputy for technology sdio mcdonnell douglas huntington beach april most of you as am i are children of the s we grew up in an age of miracles inter continental ballistic missiles nuclear energy computers flights to the moon but these were miracles of our parent s doing for a decade and more the pundits have told us you ve lost it the me generation is only living on the accomplishments of the past you and i have even begun to believe the pessimists we listen in awe as the past generation tells of its triumphs living history they are we are privileged to hear those who did it tell of it a few weeks ago some of this very team listened in awe as general bernie schriever told of his team s work and yes struggle to build this nation s intercontinental ballistic missile what stories can we tell blurry eyed telescopes thousand dollar toilet seats even our space launch vehicles hearken only of that past great time they are and seem destined to remain gen schriever s icbms i find it hard to swell with pride that the best new space lifter idea is to refurbish old minuteman and poseidon ballistic missiles well the pessimists are wrong the legacy is continuing this event is proof to our technological parents we ve listened to your stories we ve caught your enthusiasm and can do spirit and we ve learned from your achievements and your mistakes let me honor one of you who was part of that history and the impetus behind this history max hunter you are one of the greatest engineers of the firts great age of space exploration your insight and discipline built the thor icbm later incorporated into today s most successful launch vehicle the delta you told us in the s that a new form of launch vehicle a single stage reusable rocket can and should be built you advocated this idea tirelessly it was elegantly simple as are all great breakthroughs you showed us how to build it you convinced us it could be done you are working by our side to weld its components into place most important you reminded us of a prime engineering principle undoubtably one you learned from the generation before you the generation that built transcontinental aviation in the s and s build a little and test a little and max you passed all of this on to people like pat ladner who started this program for the sdi douglas aircraft didn t start with a dc they didn t even start with a dc our grandfathers built a little tested a little even sold a little and made a little money before they moved on to the next step they didn t take a decade or more before putting the first rubber on the road max hunter you didn t take ten years to build thor and by god we re not going to take ten years to show that low cost single stage reusable aerospace transportation is real we ended the cold war in a few short years it took the same team here today but a few years to show through the strategic defense initiative that the cold war must end we you and us launched a series of satellites the delta experiments in about a year apiece this more than anything else signaled our commitment to end the impasse between ourselves and the soviet union those who made the decisions on both sides have underscored the importance of our work in bringing about a new international relationship but it is the same team which is now putting in place the framework for an aerospace expansion that is our legacy for the next generation we will make space access routine and affordable we built this magnificent flying machine in two years this summer a true rocket ship will take off and land on earth for the first time then we can and surely will build in the next three years a reusable sub orbital rocket it will allow us to use space rapidly affordably and efficiently as no other nation can and yes we ll make a little money off it too then and only then we ll spend another three years to build a fully reusable single stage to orbit system the dc of space will be a reality we may even be able to use some of the rocket propulsion breakthroughs of our former cold war adversaries what a wonderful irony if this sdi product and russian efforts to counter sdi merge to power mankind s next step to the stars to be sure we must guard against the temptations to leap to the final answer robert goddard s first rockets weren t saturn v s if we succumb to the temptation to ask for just a few extra dollars and a few more years to jump immediately to a full orbital system we will fail max hunter and his colleagues showed the way three years and a cloud of dust in our case rocket exhausts there is no short cut if we expect to reshape the world again we must do it one brick at a time minds on tasks at hand this project is real the torch of american technological greatness is being passed we are americans this machine is american let s go fly it
sci.space	u s space foundation speech speech by pete worden delivered before the u s space foundation conference colorado springs colorado april what a delightful opportunity to cause some trouble for providing me this forum i would sincerely like to thank the u s space foundation my topic today is the single stage rocket technology rocket or ssrt by i intend to speak of more how to lower the cost and make rapid progress ssrt is to my mind and i hope to convince you the erupting a new rallying cry for our generation in space faster cheaper and better faster cheaper better and ssrt represent the passing of a torch from one technical generation to another it is a new thing to be sure but it is also a relearning of old things from past masters when we rolled out the ssrt baby two weeks ago so called experts told us it violates the laws of physics it made no sense for example dr eberhart rachtin former president of the aerospace corp said of ssrt in the l a times that it defies the best principles of launching payloads into space well dr rachtin you ve made us mad what are these principles that ssrt defies well i ll tell you it violates the principle that you need a giant program office to build space hardware it violates the fact that it takes years to build something new and it violates the truism that you cant do anything significant for less than many billions of dollars it took some of the last generation s experts to teach us some new old lessons werhner von braun s first rocket was not a saturn v general schriever s icbm s didn t take ten years to demonstrate and the x airplane didn t cost billion it took one of the great engineers of the s to remind us of these truths max hunter max to remind you was a senior engineer in the thor irbm program and old faster better cheaper success story max has been persistent in a vision of a single stage reusable space launch system since the s because he knew it had to be done in affordable steps build a little test a little next he persuaded us to do a technology demonstration we didn t solicit a bunch of requirements they d just change every few years anyway not included in the speech the als nls has such ephemeral requirements that it would better known as shape shifter than space lifter we didn t spend a lot money this x rocket only cost million when s the last time we even built a new airplane for that and it didn t take a lot of time to build mcdonnell douglas completed it in months finally the government program office consisted of one very over worked air force major motivated in part by the threat that he d get to ride on it in a strapped on lawn chair if it ran over cost or schedule as i described what ssrt is and isn t keep in mind its only a first step there are several more steps and steps that can easily fail before the u s can field an ssto but each step should follow the same principles a small management team a few years technology demonstration and a modest budget let me show a few details on ssrt and how it might evolve see charts i m embarrassed when my generation is compared with the last generation the giants of the last great space era the s and s they went to the moon we built a telescope that can t see straight they soft landed on mars the least we could do is soft land on earth but we do have an answer we can follow their build a little test a little philosophy to produce a truly affordable and routine access to space i know there are nay sayers among you those who say ssrt is a stunt it needs more thermal protection the engines are wrong it would be better to land horizontally etc etc i say to you we ll see you at white sands in june you bring your view graphs and i ll bring my rocketship if we do what we say we can do then you let us do the next step not included in the speech if we fail you still have your program offices staff summary sheets requirement analyses and decade long programs i bet on my generation and max hunter s idea any takers
sci.space	re commercial mining activities on the moon in article r j inn j mojo eng umd edu sysmgr king eng umd edu writes in article steinly apr topaz ucsc edu steinly topaz ucsc edu steinn sigurdsson writes very cost effective if you use the right accounting method sherzer methodology let it never be said that an opportunity was missed to put someone down
sci.space	re proton centaur well thank you dennis for your as usual highly detailed and informative posting the question i have about the proton is could it be handled at one of ksc s spare pads without major malfunction or could it be handled at kourou or vandenberg now if it uses storables then how long would it take for the russians to equip something at cape york if proton were launched from a western site how would it compare to the t centaur as i see it it should lift very close to the t pat
sci.space	re crazy or just imaginitive in article apr aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes unfortunately h beam piper killed him self just weeks short of having his first book published and have his ideas see light such a waste piper lived in my town williamsport pa when he killed himself it was in the early s he had had more than a few books published by that time but he was down on his luck financially rumor was that he was hunting urban pigeons with birdshot for food he viewed himself as a resourceful man and imo decided to check out gracefully if he couldn t support himself the worst part is that john campbell the long time editor of astounding analog sf magazine had cut a check for piper s most recent story and said check was in the mail if campbell had known piper s straits i m sure he would have phoned to say hang on campbell was like that i wish it had happened differently i always enjoyed piper s stuff doug loss
sci.space	re comet in temporary orbit around jupiter msb sq sq com mark brader writes thanks again one final question the name gehrels wasn t known to me before this thread came up but the may issue of scientific american has an article about the inconstant cosmos with a photo of neil gehrels project scientist for nasa s compton gamma ray observatory same person no i estimate a probability the gehrels referred to is thomas gehrels of the spacewatch project kitt peak observatory maybe in the th century they could do gamma ray spectroscopy on distant asteroids with an orbiting observatory but here in the primitive th we have to send a probe there to get gamma ray spectroscopy done mark brader softquad inc toronto information we want information utzoo sq msb msb sq com the prisoner you have the info on mayan television yet this article is in the public domain phil fraering seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff pgf srl cacs usl edu like how the ancient mayans had televison repo man
sci.space	re why not give billion to first year long moon residents you forget that apollo was a government program and had to start relatively from scratch some people at nasa think that this could work one of them replied to me personally after i posted this original message several days ago i have heard jerry pournelle suggest this idea before gene theporch raider net gene wright theporch raider net the macinteresteds of nashville
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky hoover mathematik uni bielefeld de uwe schuerkamp writes in article c t k db research canon oz au enzo research canon oz au enzo liguori writes hideous vision of the future observers were startled this spring when a nasa launch vehicle arrived at the pad with schwarzenegger painted in huge block letters on the this is ok in my opinion as long as the stuff returns to earth what do you think of this revolting and hideous attempt to vandalize the night sky it is not even april anymore if this turns out to be true it s time to get seriously active in terrorism this is unbelievable who do those people think they are selling every bit that promises to make money i guess we really deserve being wiped out by uv radiation folks stupidity wins i guess that s true and if only by pure numbers another depressed planetary citizen hoover this isn t inherently bad this isn t really light pollution since it will only be visible shortly before or after dusk or during the day of course if night only lasts hours for you you re probably going to be inconvienenced but you re inconvienenced anyway in that case finally this isn t the bronze age and most of us aren t indo european those people speaking indo eurpoean languages often have much non indo european ancestry and cultural background so please try to remember that there are more human activities than those practiced by the warrior caste the farming caste and the priesthood and why act distressed that someone s found a way to do research that doesn t involve socialism it certianly doesn t mean we deserve to die phil fraering seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff pgf srl cacs usl edu like how the ancient mayans had televison repo man
sci.space	re boom whoosh in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu wdwells nyx cs du edu david fuzzy wells writes i love the idea of an inflatable mile long sign it will be a really neat thing to see it explode when a bolt or even better a westford needle comes crashing into it at clicks a sec pageos and two echo balloons were inflated with a substance which expanded in vacuum once inflated the substance was no longer needed since there is nothing to cause the balloon to collapse this inflatable structure could suffer multiple holes with no disastrous deflation bruce watson wats scicom alphacdc com bulletin item extract
sci.space	re first spacewalk in article c sumg rf cs cmu edu flb flb optiplan fi f baube tm writes at one time there was speculation that the first spacewalk alexei leonov was a staged fake has any evidence to support or contradict this claim emerged was this claim perhaps another fevered cold war hallucination i for one would be an avid reader of a sci space ussr what really happened bruce watson wats scicom alphacdc com bulletin item extract
sci.space	planets still images orbit by ether twist ether implodes earth core is gravity this paper both describes how heavenly bodys can be stationary ether sucking structures and why we observe orbital motion ether the theoretical propogation media of electro magnetic waves was concluded not to exist based on the results of the michelson moreley experiment conducted a century ago i propose that those conclusions are flawed based on the fact that the experiment was designed to look for a flow parallel to the earth s surface not perpindicular due to the prevailing assumption that the earth traveled through the ether as a ball through the wind the reversal of the that conclusion a pivotal keystone in the development of modern scientific thought could have ramifications of biblical proportions through out the world remember einstien said imagination is greater than knowledge i dream like this ether based reality the ether is like a fluid out of phase with our reality creations start as a lattice placed into the ether given a spin the lattices both drag the fluid like a margarita blender and ingest it converting it distilling localized mass time and energy non spinning lattice dark matter the earth isn t exactly spinning around the sun picture an image of a galaxy we haven t any videos of them spinning picture us being stationary and the sun s image being dragged across the sky by the spinning ether field picture an onion each layer of which is spinning a little faster than the next a thread shot at the inner kernel would be stretched diagonally sideways its head being in a faster shell than its tail until it finally intersected the ground of the inner kernel its direction vector being straight down but its foot print being a line not a point sunrise sunset the moon isn t exactly orbiting us it is a parasite non self spin sustaining being dragged in the earth s ether field which is itself in the sun s much more powerful field our seasons are the wobble of earth s axis like a top slowing down the orbit of the earth around the sun is all of the stars images being dragged around by the sun s ether feild the earth moon and sun are about the same size and distance apart its just that the time between them varies greatly because the path is not the same the moon s lattice in the ether is like sticking a fork in a plate of spaghetti and giving the plate a half turn the sun s lattice has so much spin that its like the fork has got the whole plate of noodles wound up the piece of light going to the moon can slide down the spaghetti and maybe make a j hook at the end the piece of light going to the sun has to go around the whole plate like a needle in a record before it gets there with a pencil compass and rule draw a diagram of how the moon can be about as big as earth s shadow upon it and at other times totally eclipse the sun look in the sky except for your knowledge would you guess that they are about the same size just because they look about the same size o e o o o s e m or m s the full moon quarter moon etc is the difference between rate of ether spins what we are looking at is a rotating turntable view of the moon only half of which is facing the sun i ve seen a half moon within about degrees of sky of the sun during the day try and draw that earth shadow its only the moon s image which appears to orbit us no matter where it is the light part is the part facing the sun and the dark part is the half facing away from the sun even when it appears to be behind us light years between galaxies is a misnomer the distance is closer to zero as time and matter are characteristics of this phase of reality which dissipates outward with each layer of the onion defining edge ether spin what we are seeing could be essentially happening now the piece of light may have experienced many years but the trip could be very quick our time to time travel or warp space i might consider learning to de spin myself phase out my mass good luck trying to design a propulsion system to drag around a space time locality its like trying to move a balloon by shooting a squirt gun from within to find out about all of this i recommend studying history i d look in the book of life or holy grail etc brain waves just might carry decipherable data i d start looking on some part of the spectra said to be unusable due to all the background noise billion humans i d totally isolate myself record me thinking dog backwards and learn to read what i got microsoft holy grail card for pentium next concluding that my thoughts were recorded on a non time bound media the ether and that it is i who move forward in time i would try to temporarily locally reverse the flow of time which i d start looking for as flowing opposite magnetism pole to pole why not perhaps by passing a large flat dc current through a two foot diameter coil or choke or something and seeing what i could get with my machine s receiver next to it if you don t think you ll live to see it consider this quit putting the reproductive keys of other life in your body all of life s data could be written on the wind ether not just our thoughts dna could be a little receiver or file access code by eating seeds we could be jamming our reception or receiving plant instructions try eating seed bearing fruit maybe those greek or biblical guys did live hundreds of years i m curios to see what they did and ate don t worry if your hair stops growing maybe we don t need to eat at all the cosmos are formed from nothing and that is creating matter i only need enough to bounce around where did the household concept immortal come from wheat is a weed it is programmed to pull from the soil reproduce like hell and then die warning about writing to the past i had a little dream of being in a world in the near parallel future lying along a path of history which we have diverged from there were twelve telepathic glowing beings who looked like an oscar award and who had always been a dark one who looked like us and then myself the dark one was in the process of making the others into gods he had to teach them what that meant by advising them in their past basically he manipulated them into reproducing and raising their children on his seed he said that the little ones who looked different were a sub species meant to provide service he carefully combed through history rewriting it in his favor pulling like a weed anything that compromised his control he enticed recruits by sending them his visions saying that there was immortality at the end of the road for only twelve souls kill or be killed the amount of control he could exert was finite though as at every change he made a void would appear in our reality the universe one day ended meters from us it seemed odd but we couldn t remember how else it should be then some of the twelve were no more finally when he could prune no more and reality stopped just beyond his fingertips he stepped through his portal to the past to bask over and over in all that he had created i made a few more changes and lost my body existing only on the wind moral its very possible to eliminate from your reality the souls whose will s are not in harmony with yours golden rule treat others as you wish to be treated i e you could end up along a lonely thread of time with murderers or flowery brown nosers for playmates its not eternal there s more than one way back accepting rides to the past once here the one who looks like us sells rides he can make you a prince or a queen or you can live as a god in ancient greece go ahead repeat the third grade as often as you like adam henry i hope you like inspecting your socks careful though if he likes your work but thinks you re getting wise he can direct you to cross paths with your old self and you ll vanish as you rewrite your own course of history none the wiser as we pass the point along the parallel line where he stepped back in time his hierarchy will lose its direction he can still make changes while he s here its just that that is work and with every adjustment this becomes less the world he cultivated which loosens his grip and his organization is suddenly one branch less but he can t see the change the basic nature of man is good he had to apply his hand to achieve his world as he now tightens his hand to retain what he built the more sand slips through his fingers how about public computer access to the i r s its our country our money and they re spending it on us right imagine this washington marks the next cost at irs collects gives to congress and just absolutely buries congress borrows the banks are making what a margin interest on our government big corporations are ecstatic if they can do a margin what do the banks do with it hold some on a carrot to the world sure but mostly bury it why food production is gnp construction hours to build your auto the people are spending all of their time to buy back a tenth of what they produce have we been deceived if we are more efficient why is it getting harder to get by what if the point is just to keep the people busy making widgets in that other reality i shouted to the twelve its chaos they said no its order he defined chaos as that which is he was not able to control rain forest the problem could be that all the water in its canopy would hide the location of an indigenous people who have no language telepathic and vanishing the closest knowledge of death think of the spine as a transceiver if it is on the ground and pointed up you can locate it from above these people are probably naive as children but very very tough to kill also they should be able to tell you stories about the dark one that i talk about they can hear him i think that ham and world band radio old timers might have a story to tell on this these people would be on a different frequency than us as they aren t eating seeds famine relief when i make my diet almost all whole wheat i get a huge belly lose muscle mass sleep a lot and get sick when i eat only fresh fruit i get more energy a hollywood flat belly and need a lot less sleep un peace keeping there is fighting and killing all over the troops go in when there is no bread on the shelf its ok to kill each other just make sure there is enough to eat somalia what is disturbing is energetic gun carrying three foot tall sixteen year olds who eat nothing but some roots that they suck on it is not so much that their growth is stunted it is that they aren t dying at a rate of of years per life women with children babes in arms historical references to women and children as a single unit could mean that infants were not cut from the umbilical cord and hence were not breast fed i think that there may be some very interesting results to this such as mother child telepathy and blue blooded infants there are examples of this practice in the aquatic mammal kingdom to investigate that guy is the master of illusion and the ultimate liar he tells it first and then just follows the thread of time in which the people are willing to buy it in which he can make it so he ll play a poker face up until he thinks he s cornered and then he ll whine beg and grovel all it means to him is that you re willing to live on the ground work that he has laid that is that he was right and he didn t over play his hand and he won t need to go back and try another thread of time you have ultimate control over your destiny just don t live along a path that leads to a reality in which you don t want to be a part of i don t claim to be the first to think these things its just that the others could have been pruned from our path maybe these thoughts given to me were laid down on the track of time after him
sci.space	re eco freaks forcing space mining in article apr aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes here is a way to get the commericial companies into space and mineral exploration basically get the eci freaks to make it so hard to get the minerals on earth you think this is crazy well in a way it is but in a way it is reality there is a billin the congress to do just that basically to make it so expensive to mine minerals in the us unless you can by off the inspectors or tax collectors ascially what i understand from talking to a few miner friends of mine that they the congress propose to have a tax on the gross income of the mine versus the adjusted income also the state governments have there normal taxes so by the time you get done paying for materials workers and other expenses you can owe more than what you made basically if you make a and spend ofor expenses you can owe in federal taxes bascially it is driving the miners off the land and the only peopel who benefit are the eco freaks basically to get back to my beginning statement is space is the way to go cause it might just get to expensive to mine on earth because of either the eco freaks or the protectionist such fun we have in these interesting times michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked the current mining regulations and fees were set in the s what the so called eco freaks want to do is to simply bring those fees in line with current economic reality currently mining companies can get access to minerals on public lands for ridiculously low prices something like the mining lobby has for decades managed to block any reform of these outdated fees in fact the latest attempt to reform them was again blocked president clinton compromised by taking the mining fee reforms out of his budget and plans to draft separate legislation to fight that battle if you want to discuss this further i suggest you take this to talk environment g patrick molloy huntsville alabama
sci.space	re comet in temporary orbit around jupiter in article apr sq sq com msb sq sq com mark brader writes also peri jove s of gehrels were april jupiter radii august jupiter radii where jupiter radius km mi au sorry perijoves i m not used to talking this language thanks again one final question the name gehrels wasn t known to me before this thread came up but the may issue of scientific american has an article about the inconstant cosmos with a photo of neil gehrels project scientist for nasa s compton gamma ray observatory same person neil gehrels is prof tom gehrels son tom gehrels was the discoverer of p gehrels as well as about other comets the latest of which does not bear his name but rather the name spacewatch since he was observing with that system when he found the latest comet mark brader softquad inc toronto information we want information utzoo sq msb msb sq com the prisoner jim scotti jscotti lpl arizona edu lunar planetary laboratory university of arizona tucson az usa
sci.space	re keeping spacecraft on after funding cuts this discussion is better followed in talk politics space joseph cain cain geomag gly fsu edu cain fsu bitnet scri cain fax or
sci.space	re moonbase race nasa resources why in article apr aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes so how much would it cost as a private venture assuming you could talk the u s government into leasing you a couple of pads in florida why must it be a us government space launch pad directly i mean in fact you probably want to avoid us government anything for such a project the pricetag is invariably too high either in money or in hassles the important thing to realize here is that the big cost of getting to the moon is getting into low earth orbit everything else is practically down in the noise the only part of getting to the moon that poses any new problems beyond what you face in low orbit is the last km the actual landing and that is not immensely difficult of course you can spend sagadollars saga is the metric prefix for beelyuns and beelyuns on things other than the launches but you don t have to the major component of any realistic plan to go to the moon cheaply for more than a brief visit at least is low cost transport to earth orbit for what it costs to launch one shuttle or two titan ivs you can develop a new launch system that will be considerably cheaper delta clipper might be a bit more expensive than this perhaps but there are less ambitious ways of bringing costs down quite a bit any plan for doing sustained lunar exploration using existing launch systems is wasting money in a big way given this questions like whose launch facilities you use are not a minor detail they are very important to the cost of the launches which dominates the cost of the project all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	re surviving large accelerations in article efpx ws uh qaop s andrew cmu edu amruth laxman al andrew cmu edu writes here s my question finally are g accelerations in fact humanly tolerable with the aid of any mechanical devices of course if these are possible what is used to absorb the acceleration this sounds a bit high to me still higher accelerations have been endured very briefly during violent deceleration if we re talking sustained acceleration i think odd gees has been demonstrated using water immersion i doubt that any of this generalizes to another order of magnitude all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	re sunrise sunset times a related question which i haven t given that much serious thought to at what lattitude is the average length of the day averaged over the whole year maximized is this function a constant hours is it truly symmetric about the equator or is there some discrepancy due to the fact that the orbit is elliptic or maybe the difference is enough to change the temperature and make the seasons in the southern hemisphere more bitter but is far too small to make a sizeable difference in daylight hours i want to know where to move nick firoozye nick sfb iam uni bonn de
sci.space	re sunrise sunset times in article apr cbis ece drexel edu jpw cbis ece drexel edu joseph wetstein writes hello i am looking for a program or algorithm that can be used to compute sunrise and sunset times here is a computation i did a long time ago that computes the length of the daylight you should be able to convert the information here to sunrise and sunset times rouben rostamian telephone department of mathematics and statistics e mail university of maryland baltimore county bitnet rostamian umbc bitnet baltimore md usa internet rouben math umbc edu definitions z the tilt of the axis of the planet away from the normal to its orbital plane in case of the earth z is about degrees i think i do not recall the exact value in case of uranus z is almost degrees u latitude of the location where the length of the day is measured paris is at about degrees north pole is at a angular position of the planet around the sun as a goes from to degrees the planet makes a full circle around the sun the spring equinox occurs at a l daylight fraction duration of daylight duration of a full day on the equator u l is always near the north pole u degrees l is sometimes one and sometimes zero depending on the time of the year computation define the auxiliary angles p and q by sin p sin a sin z cos q h tan u tan p q degrees conclusion l q if q is measured in degrees l q pi if q is measured in radians wait but what is h the cutoff function h is defined as follows h s s if s if s if s as an interesting exercise plot l versus a the graph will shows how the length of the daylight varies with the time of the year experiment with various choices of latitudes and tilt angles compare the behavior of the function at locations above and below the arctic circle rouben rostamian telephone department of mathematics and statistics e mail university of maryland baltimore county bitnet rostamian umbc bitnet baltimore md usa internet rouben math umbc edu
sci.space	re help i need some addresses in apr ncsu edu jmcocker eos ncsu edu mitch writes i m trying to get mailing addresses for the following companies specifically i need addresses for their personnel offices or like bureau the companies are space industries inc somewhere in houston courageous dr leage city tx phone good luck doug doug egan it s not what you got lockheed engineering and sciences co it s what you give houston tx tesla email egan blkbox com
sci.space	re keeping spacecraft on after funding cuts in article apr zeus calpoly edu jgreen trumpet calpoly edu james thomas green writes prb access digex com pat pontificated i heard once that the voyagers had a failsafe routine built in that essentially says if you never hear from earth again here s what to do this was a back up in the event a receiver burnt out but the probe could still send data limited but still some data voyager has the unusual luck to be on a stable trajectory out of the solar system all it s doing is collecting fields data and routinely squirting it down one of the mariners is also in stable solar orbit and still providing similiar solar data something in a planetary orbit is subject to much more complex forces comsats in stable geosynch orbits require almost daily stationkeeping operations for the occasional deep space bird like pff after pluto sure it could be left on auto pilot but things like galileo or magellan i d suspect they need enough housekeeping that even untended they d end up unusable after a while the better question should be why not transfer o m of all birds to a separate agency with continous funding to support these kind of ongoing science missions pat when ongoing ops are mentioned it seems to always quote operations and data analysis how much would it cost to collect the data and let it be analyzed whenever kinda like all that landsat data that sat around for years before someone analyzed it for the ozone hole even if you let teh bird drift it may get hosed by some cosmic phenomena since this would be a shutdown that may never be refunded for startup if some type of cosmic bem took out the probe it might not be such a big loss obviously you can t plan for everything but the most obvious things can be considered james t green jgreen oboe calpoly edu i know you believe you understand what it is that you think i said but i am not sure that you realize that what i said is not what i meant
sci.space	re eco freaks forcing space mining besides this was the same line of horse puckey the mining companies claimed when they were told to pay for restoring land after strip mining they still mine coal in the midwest but now it doesn t look like the moon when theyare done pat
sci.space	why dc will be the way of the future i once read an article on computer technology which stated that every new computer technology was actually lower and slower then what it replaced silicon was less effective then the germanium products then available gaas was less capable then silicon multi processors were slower then existent single processors what the argument was though was that these new technologies promised either theoretically future higher performance or lower cost or higher densities i think that the dc may g fit into this same model elv s can certainly launch more weight then a ssrt but an ssrt offers the prospect of greater cycle times and lower costs this is kind of a speculative posting but i thought i d throw it out as a hjistorical framework for those interested in the project pat
sci.space	re keeping spacecraft on after funding cuts in article r aqr dnv access digex net prb access digex com pat writes the better question should be why not transfer o m of all birds to a separate agency with continous funding to support these kind of ongoing science missions since we don t have the money to keep them going now how will changing them to a seperate agency help anything greg hennessy university of virginia usps mail astronomy department charlottesville va usa internet gsh w virginia edu uucp uunet virginia gsh w
sci.space	dc x choice of a new generation was re ssrt roll out speech in article r uos jid access digex net jkatz access digex com jordan katz writes speech delivered by col simon p worden the deputy for technology sdio most of you as am i are children of the s we grew up in an age of miracles inter continental ballistic missiles nuclear energy computers flights to the moon but these were miracles of our parent s doing speech by pete worden delivered before the u s space foundation conference i m embarrassed when my generation is compared with the last generation the giants of the last great space era the s and s they went to the moon we built a telescope that can t see straight they soft landed on mars the least we could do is soft land on earth just out of curiousity how old is worden brian yamauchi case western reserve university yamauchi alpha ces cwru edu department of computer engineering and science
sci.space	re eco freaks forcing space mining in article apr aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes here is a way to get the commericial companies into space and mineral exploration basically get the eci freaks to make it so hard to get the minerals on earth if raw materials where to cost enough that getting them from space would be cost effective then the entire world economy would colapse long before the space mines could be built allen lady astor sir if you were my husband i would poison your coffee w churchill madam if you were my wife i would drink it days to first flight of dcx
sci.space	dc x dc y hi guys i ve been hearing lots of talk on the net about dc x and dc y but none of the many posts actually explain what they are sorry if this is a faq but would somebody please explain to me what they are reply by email please thanks andy ajjb adam bnsc rl ac uk andy jonathan j broderick i have come that they might have rutherford lab uk life and have it to the full mail ajjb adam bnsc rl ac uk jesus christ
sci.space	re why dc will be the way of the future hmmm i seem to recall that the attraction of solid state record players and radios in the s wasn t better performance but lower per unit cost than vacuum tube systems mind you my father was a vacuum tube fan in the s switched to solid state in the mid seventies and then abruptly died no doubt there s a lesson in that and his account could have been biased james nicoll
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky in article apr locus com todd phad la locus com todd johnson writes as for advertising sure why not a nasa friend and i spent one drunken night figuring out just exactly how much gold mylar we d need to put the golden arches of a certain american fast food organization on the face of the moon fortunately we sobered up in the morning hmmm it actually isn t all that much is it like about million km if you think that sounds like a lot it s only a few tens of m per burger that said organization sold last year you d be best off with a reflective substance that could be sprayed thinly by an unmanned craft in lunar orbit or rather a large set of such craft if you can get a reasonable albedo it would be visible even at new moon since the moon itself is quite dark and bright at full moon you might have to abandon the colour though buy a cheap launch system design reusable moon lunar orbit unmanned spraying craft build said craft establish a lunar base to extract tio say for colour you d be better off with a sulphur compound i suppose and some sort of propellant and bob s your uncle i ll do it for say billion dollars plus changes of identity for me and all my loved ones delivery date can we get the fast food chain bidding against the fizzy drink vendors who else might be interested would they buy it given that it s a lot more expensive and not much more impressive than putting a large set of several km inflatable billboards in leo or in geo visible hours from your key growth market i ll do that for only bn and the changes of identity nick haines nickh cmu edu
sci.space	new planet kuiper object found tonigth a tv journal here in brasil announced that an object beyond pluto s orbit was found by an observatory at hawaii they named the object karla the program said the object wasn t a gaseous giant planet and should be composed by rocks and ices can someone confirm these information could this object be a new planet or a kuiper object thanks in advance francisco the stars francisco da fonseca rodrigues o o o o o cotuca colegio tecnico da unicamp o brasil o o o depto de processamento de dados o o o o cps o o o o internet chico ccsun unicamp br o o o cotuca ccvax unicamp br o fone fax o o campinas sp brasil o o like dust
sci.space	golden space ages pat sez oddly enough the smithsonian calls the lindbergh years the golden age of flight i would call it the granite years reflecting the primitive nature of it it was romantic swashbuckling daredevils those daring young men in their flying machines but in reality it sucked death was a highly likely occurence and the environment blew yeah but a windscreen cut down most of it canopies ended it completely of course the environment in space continues to suck tommy mac tom mcwilliams wk as the radius of vision increases tm ibm cl msu edu hm the circumference of mystery grows
sci.space	message from space digest press release no paris april users of esa s olympus satellite report on the outcome of their experiments today europe s space telecommunications sector would not be blossoming as it now does had olympus not provided a testbed for the technologies and services of the s this summarises the general conclusions of speakers and participants at the conference on olympus utilisation held in seville on april the conference was organised by the european space agency esa and the spanish centre for the development of industrial technology cdti olympus has been particularly useful in bringing satellite telecommunications to thousands of new users thanks to satellite terminals with very small antennas vsats olympus experiments have tested data transmission videoconferencing business television distance teaching and rural telephony to give but a few examples in opening the door to new telecommunications services which could not be accommodated on the crowded lower frequency bands olympus was the first satellite over europe to offer capacity in the ghz band in establishing two way data relay links olympus received for the first time in europe over several months high volume data from a low earth orbiting spacecraft and then distributed it to various centres in europe when olympus was launched on july it was the world s largest telecommunications satellite and no other satellite has yet equalled its versatility in combining four different payloads in a wide variety of frequency bands olympus users range from individual experimenters to some of the world s largest businesses access to the satellite is given in order to test new telecommunications techniques or services over the past four years some companies and organisations made use of this opportunity as well as over members of the eurostep distance learning organisation as the new technologies and services tested by these olympus users enter the commercial market they then make use of operational satellites such as those of eutelsat olympus utilisation will continue through and when the spacecraft will run out of fuel as it approaches the end of its design life
sci.space	re why not give billion to first year long moon residents in article qve kinnpas sal sun usc edu schaefer sal sun usc edu peter schaefer writes in article apr aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes in article zv b w w theporch raider net gene theporch raider net gene wright writes with the continuin talk about the end of the space age and complaints by government over the large cost why not try something i read about that might just work announce that a reward of billion would go to the first corporation who successfully keeps at least person alive on the moon for a year then you d see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin to be developed there d be a different kind of space race then gene theporch raider net gene wright theporch raider net the macinteresteds of nashville if that were true i d go for it i have a few friends who we could pool our resources and do it maybe make it a prize kind of liek the solar car race in australia anybody game for a contest michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked oh gee a billion dollars that d be just about enough to cover the cost of the feasability study happy happy joy joy feasability study what a wimp while you are studying others would be doing too damn many engineers doing way too little engineering he who sits on his arse sits on his fortune sir richard francis burton dillon pyron the opinions expressed are those of the ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated when i m here when i m home texans vote no on robin hood we need pyron skndiv dseg ti com solutions not gestures padi dm
sci.space	re shuttle oxygen was budget astronaut in article qn gq access digex net prb access digex com pat writes i thought that under emergency conditions the sts can put down at any good size airport if it could take a c or a then it can take an orbiter you just need a vor tac i don t know if they need ils dfw was designed with the sts in mind which really mean very little much of their early pr material had scenes with a shuttle landing and two or three others pulled up to gates i guess they were trying to stress how advanced the airport was for dallas types imagine the fit grapevine and irving would be having if the shuttle was landing at dfw for the rest they are currently having some power struggles between the airport and surrounding cities dillon pyron the opinions expressed are those of the ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated when i m here when i m home texans vote no on robin hood we need pyron skndiv dseg ti com solutions not gestures padi dm
sci.space	re proton centaur dennisn ecs comm mot com dennis newkirk writes the centaur is controlled technology state dept will not allow it to be used outside of us sorry in article apr zeus calpoly edu jgreen trumpet calpoly edu james thomas green writes has anyone looked into the possiblity of a proton centaur combo what would be the benefits and problems with such a combo other than the obvious instability in the xssr now i haven t seen any speculation about it but the salyut kb design bureau was planning a new lh lox second stage for the proton which would boost payload to leo from about to kg geostationary goes from kg gals launcher version to kg this scheme was competing with the energia m last year and i haven t heard which won except now i recently read that the central specialized kb was working on the successor to the soyuz booster which must be the energia m so the early results are energia m won but this is a guess nothing is very clear in russia i m sure if salyut kb gets funds from someone they will continue their development the centaur for the altas is about meters dia and the proton is so that s a good fit for their existing upper stage the block d which sets inside a shround just under meters dia i don t know about launch loads etc but since the centaur survives titan launches which are probably worse than the proton those titan srb s probably shake things up pretty good it seems feasible except the centaur is a very fragile thing and may require integration on the pad which is not available now protons are assembled and transported horizontially does anyone know how much stress in the way of a payload a centaur could support while bolted to a proton horizontally and then taken down the rail road track and erected on the pad they would also need lox and lh facilities added to the proton pads unless the new proton second stage is actually built and of course any centaur support systems and facilities no doubt imported from the us at great cost these systems may viloate us law so there are political problems to solve in addition to the instabilities in the cis you mention dennis newkirk dennisn ecs comm mot com motorola land mobile products sector schaumburg il
sci.space	re planets still images orbit by ether twist the only ether i see here is the stuff you must have been breathing before you posted phil fraering seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff pgf srl cacs usl edu like how the ancient mayans had televison repo man
sci.space	re commercial mining activities on the moon in article steinly apr topaz ucsc edu steinly topaz ucsc edu steinn sigurdsson writes seriously though if you were to ask the british government whether their colonisation efforts in the americas were cost effective what answer do you think you d get what if you asked in and respectively what do you mean are you saying they thought the effort was profitable or that the money was efficiently spent providing max value per money spent i think they would answer yes on ballance to both questions exceptions would be places like the us from the french indian war to the end of the us revolution but even after the colonies revolted or where given independance the british engaged in very lucrative trading with the former colonies five years after the american revolution england was still the largest us trading partner allen lady astor sir if you were my husband i would poison your coffee w churchill madam if you were my wife i would drink it days to first flight of dcx
sci.space	re boom whoosh in article scicom alphacdc com wats scicom alphacdc com bruce watson writes pageos and two echo balloons were inflated with a substance which expanded in vacuum called gas once inflated the substance was no longer needed since there is nothing to cause the balloon to collapse this inflatable structure could suffer multiple holes with no disastrous deflation the balloons were in sufficiently low orbit that they experienced some air resistance when they were finally punctured this preasure and the internal preasure that was needed to maintain a spherical shape against this resistance caused them to catastrophically deflated the large silvered shards that remained were easily visible for some time before reentry though no longer useful as a passive transponder the billboard should pop like a dime store balloon
sci.space	re why not give billion to first year long moon residents in apr iti org aws iti org allen w sherzer writes depends if you assume the existance of a working ssto like dc on billion would be enough to put about a quarter million pounds of stuff on the moon if some of that mass went to send equipment to make lox for the transfer vehicle you could send a lot more either way its a lot more than needed this prize isn t big enough to warrent developing a ssto but it is enough to do it if the vehicle exists but allen if you can assume the existence of an ssto there is no need to have the contest in the first place i would think that what we want to get out of the contest is the development of some of these cheaper ways of doing things if they already exist why flush g just to get someone to go to the moon for a year insisting on perfect safety is for people who don t have the balls to live in the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com i don t speak for others and they don t speak for me
sci.space	re moonbase race in article r o inn j mojo eng umd edu sysmgr king eng umd edu writes in article c teik z zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes apollo was done the hard way in a big hurry from a very limited technology base and on government contracts just doing it privately rather than as a government project cuts costs by a factor of several so how much would it cost as a private venture assuming you could talk the u s government into leasing you a couple of pads in florida why use a ground launch pad it is entirely posible to launch from altitude this was what the shuttle was originally intended to do it might be seriously cheaper also what about bio engineered co absorbing plants instead of many lox bottles stick em in a lunar cave and put an airlock on the door marvin batty djf uk ac cov cck and they shall not find those things with a sort of rafia like base that their fathers put there just the night before at about o clock
sci.space	re sunrise sunset times jpw cbis ece drexel edu joseph wetstein writes hello i am looking for a program or algorithm that can be used to compute sunrise and sunset times would you mind posting the responses you get i am also interested and there may be others thanks n shirlene pearson pearson titan tsd arlut utexas edu
sci.space	re level in c ubn tz zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes in article apr mksol dseg ti com mccall mksol dseg ti com fred j mccall writes given that i ve heard the shuttle software rated as level level out of how many also keep in mind that it was not achieved through the use of sophisticated tools but rather through a brute force and ignorance attack on the problem during the challenger standdown they simply threw hundreds of people at it and did the whole process by hand i think this is a little inaccurate based on feynman s account of the software development process before the standdown fred is basically correct no sophisticated tools just a lot of effort and painstaking care but they got this one right before challenger feynman cited the software people as exemplary compared to the engine people he also noted that the software people were starting to feel management pressure to cut corners but hadn t had to give in to it much yet among other things the software people worked very hard to get things right for the major pre flight simulations and considered a failure during those simulations to be nearly as bad as an in flight failure as a result the number of major simulation failures could be counted on one hand and the number of in flight failures was zero as fred mentioned elsewhere this applies only to the flight software software that runs experiments is typically mostly put together by the experimenters and gets nowhere near the same level of tender loving care none of the experimenters could afford it all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry news software ureply x x from wingert vnet ibm com bret wingert c ubn tz zoo toronto edu in c ubn tz zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes in article apr mksol dseg ti com mccall mksol dseg ti com fred j mccall writes given that i ve heard the shuttle software rated as level level out of how many also keep in mind that it was not achieved through the use of sophisticated tools but rather through a brute force and ignorance attack on the problem during the challenger standdown they simply threw hundreds of people at it and did the whole process by hand i think this is a little inaccurate based on feynman s account of the software development process before the standdown fred is basically correct no sophisticated tools just a lot of effort and painstaking care but they got this one right before challenger feynman cited the software people as exemplary compared to the engine people he also noted that the software people were starting to feel management pressure to cut corners but hadn t had to give in to it much yet as fred mentioned elsewhere this applies only to the flight software software that runs experiments is typically mostly put together by the experimenters and gets nowhere near the same level of tender loving care a couple of points on this thread we have been using our processes since way before challenger challenger in and of it self did not uncover flaws what mr spencer says is by and large true we have a process that is not dependent on sophisticated tools case tools however tools cannot fix a bad process also tool support for hal s the shuttle language is somewhat limited the onboard flight software project was rated level by a nasa team this group generates kslocs of verified code per year for nasa feel free to call me if you or your organization is interested in more info on our software development process bret wingert fax bret wingert fax
sci.space	re moonbase race in article apr iti org aws iti org allen w sherzer writes in article r o inn j mojo eng umd edu sysmgr king eng umd edu writes so how much would it cost as a private venture assuming you could talk the u s government into leasing you a couple of pads in florida why would you want to do that the goal is to do it cheaper remember this isn t government instead of leasing an expensive launch pad just use a ssto and launch from a much cheaper facility allen sometimes i think you re ok and sometimes you tend to rashly leap into making statement without thinking them out wanna guess which today you d need to launch hlvs to send up large amounts of stuff do you know of a private titan pad software engineering that s like military intelligence isn t it sysmgr cadlab eng umd edu
sci.space	re crazy or just imaginitive on thu apr gmt nsmca aurora alaska edu said nsmca so some of my ideas are a bit odd off the wall and such but nsmca so was wilbur and orville wright and quite a few others this is a common misconception there was nothing off the wall about the wright brothers they were in correspondance with a number of other experimenters octave chanute lillienthal etc they flew models they had a wind tunnel in short they were quite mainstream and were not regarded as odd or eccentric by the community i suggest you read the bishop s boys or the biography by harry gates combs i can never remember which it is the guy that had the fbos and owned learjet for a while these are both in print and easily obtainable the bishop s boys is in trade paperback even even better would be the multi volume set of the wrights writings but this is out of print rare and hideously expensive mary shafer dod kotfr nasa dryden flight research facility edwards ca shafer rigel dfrf nasa gov of course i don t speak for nasa a mig at your six is better than no mig at all unknown us fighter pilot
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky in article c w f lc cs cmu edu nickh cs cmu edu nick haines writes would they buy it given that it s a lot more expensive and not much more impressive than putting a large set of several km inflatable billboards in leo or in geo visible hours from your key growth market i ll do that for only bn and the changes of identity i ve heard of sillier things like a well known utility company wanting to buy an automated boiler cleaning system which uses as many operators as the old system and which rumour has it costs three million more per unit automation is more efficient although by what scale they are not saying james nicoll
sci.space	re how many read sci space in apr mksol dseg ti com pyron skndiv dseg ti com dillon pyron writes there are actually only two of us i do henry fred tommy and mary oh yeah this isn t my real name i m a bald headed space baby yes and i do everyone else why you may wonder don t i do fred well that would just be too obvious wouldn t it oh yeah this isn t my real name either i m actually elvis or maybe a lemur i sometimes have difficulty telling which is which insisting on perfect safety is for people who don t have the balls to live in the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com i don t speak for others and they don t speak for me
sci.space	re planets still images orbit by ether twist they must be shipping that good eau clair acid to california now tom freebairn
sci.space	re boom whoosh in article c ut z ctg zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes in article r ofinndku gap caltech edu palmer cco caltech edu david m palmer writes orbiting billboard i would just like to point out that it is much easier to place an object at orbital altitude than it is to place it with orbital velocity for a target km above the surface of earth you need a delta v of km s unfortunately if you launch this from the us or are a us citizen you will need a launch permit from the office of commercial space transportation and i think it may be difficult to get a permit for an antisatellite weapon well henry we are often reminded how canada is not a part of the united states yet you could have quite a commercial a sat er sky cleaning service going in a few years toronto skysweepers clear skies in hours or your money back discount rates available for astro researchers software engineering that s like military intelligence isn t it sysmgr cadlab eng umd edu
sci.space	re lindbergh and the moon was why not give g jbh uxa cso uiuc edu josh hopkins writes mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov keith mancus writes cook varmit mdc com layne cook writes the k orteig prize helped lindbergh sell his spirit of saint louis venture to his financial backers but i strongly suspect that his saint louis backers had the foresight to realize that much more was at stake than could it work with the moon who are the far sighted financial backers of today the commercial uses of a transportation system between already settled and civilized areas are obvious spaceflight is not in this position the correct analogy is not with aviation of the s but the long transocean voyages of the age of discovery lindbergh s flight took place in not the thirties of course sorry for the misunderstanding i was referring to the fact that far more aeronautical development took place in the s for much of the s the super abundance of jennies and ox engines held down the industry by many of the obsolete wwi aircraft had been retired and whirlwind had their power weight ratio and reliability up to the point where long distance flights became practical it s important to note that the atlantic was flown not once but three times in lindbergh chamberlin and levine and byrd s america when it s time to railroad you railroad it didn t require gov t to fund these as long as something was known about the potential for profit at the destination in practice some were gov t funded some were private could you give examples of privately funded ones not off the top of my head i ll have to dig out my reference books again however i will say that the most common arrangement in prince henry the navigator s portugal was for the prince to put up part of the money and merchants to put up the rest they profits from the voyage would then be shared but there was no way that any wise investor would spend a large amount of money on a very risky investment with no idea of the possible payoff a person who puts up x billion for a moon base is much more likely to do it because they want to see it done than because they expect to make money off the deal the problem is that the amount of prize money required to inspire a moon base is much larger than any but a handful of individuals or corporations can even consider putting up the kremer prizes human powered aircraft orteig s prize lord northcliffe s prize for crossing the atlantic won in by alcock and brown were much smaller the technologies required were within the reach of individual inventors and the prize amounts were well within the reach of a large number of wealthy individuals i think that only a gov t could afford to set up a b prize for any purpose whatsoever note that burt rutan suggested that nasp could be built most cheaply by taking out an ad in avweek stating that the first company to build a plane that could take off and fly the profile would be handed b no questions asked keith mancus mancus butch jsc nasa gov n wvr mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov black powder and alcohol when your states and cities fall when your back s against the wall leslie fish
sci.space	re moonbase race nasa resources why in article c w un bpq zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer wrote the major component of any realistic plan to go to the moon cheaply for more than a brief visit at least is low cost transport to earth orbit for what it costs to launch one shuttle or two titan ivs you can develop a new launch system that will be considerably cheaper delta clipper might be a bit more expensive than this perhaps but there are less ambitious ways of bringing costs down quite a bit ah there s the rub and a catch to boot for the purposes of a contest you ll probably not compete if n you can t afford the ride to get there and although lower priced delivery systems might be doable without demand its doubtful that anyone will develop a new system course if a low priced system existed there might be demand i wonder if there might be some way of structuring a contest to encourage low cost payload delivery systems the accounting methods would probably be the hardest to work out for example would you allow rockwell to loan you the engines and so forth any plan for doing sustained lunar exploration using existing launch systems is wasting money in a big way this depends on the how soon the new launch system comes on line in other words perhaps a great deal of worthwhile technology life support navigation etc could be developed prior to a low cost launch system you wouldn t want to use the expensive stuff forever but i d hate to see folks waiting to do anything until a low cost mac oops i mean launch system comes on line i guess i d simplify this to say that waste is a slippery concept if your goal is manned lunar exploration in the next years then perhaps its not wasted money if your goal is to explore the moon for under million then you should put of this exploration for a decade or so craig craig keithley i don t remember i don t recall apple computer inc i got no memory of anything at all keithley apple com peter gabriel third album
sci.space	re why dc will be the way of the future in article apr julian uwo ca jdnicoll prism ccs uwo ca james davis nicoll writes hmmm i seem to recall that the attraction of solid state record players and radios in the s wasn t better performance but lower per unit cost than vacuum tube systems i don t think so at first but solid state offered better reliabity id bet and any lower costs would be only after the processes really scaled up pat
sci.space	re proton centaur in article r to oh access digex net prb access digex com pat writes the question i have about the proton is could it be handled at one of ksc s spare pads without major malfunction or could it be handled at kourou or vandenberg seems like a lot of trouble to go to its probably better to invest in newer launch systems i don t think a big cost advantage for using russian systems will last for very long maybe a few years lockheed would be the place to ask since you would probably have to buy the proton from them they market the proton world wide except russia they should know a lot about the possibilities i haven t heard them propose us launches so i assume they looked into it and found it unprofitable now if it uses storables yes then how long would it take for the russians to equip something at cape york comparable to the zenit i suppose but since it looks like nothing will be built there you might just as well pick any spot the message is to launch now while its cheap and while russia and kazakstan are still cooperating later the story may be different dennis newkirk dennisn ecs comm mot com motorola land mobile products sector schaumburg il
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky in c tvl in hermes hrz uni bielefeld de hoover mathematik uni bielefeld de uwe schuerkamp writes in article c t k db research canon oz au enzo research canon oz au enzo liguori writes hideous vision of the future observers were startled this spring when a nasa launch vehicle arrived at the pad with schwarzenegger painted in huge block letters on the this is ok in my opinion as long as the stuff returns to earth what do you think of this revolting and hideous attempt to vandalize the night sky it is not even april anymore if this turns out to be true it s time to get seriously active in terrorism this is unbelievable who do those people think they are selling every bit that promises to make money well i guess i m left wondering just who all the light fascists think they are yes i understand the issues i don t even particularly care for the idea but am i the only one that finds the sort of overreaction above just a little questionable you must find things like the moon really obnoxious in their pollution a few questions for those frothing at the mouth to ask themselves how long is this thing supposed to stay up sounds like it would have a huge drag area not a lot of mass and be in a fairly low orbit just what orbital parameters are we talking about here what real impact are we talking about really how many optical astronomers are really going to be impacted which is more important adding a few extra days of seeing for very few optical astronomers or getting the data the sensors are supposed to return along with the data for large inflatables and the potential there for an inflatable space station the choice would seem to be one or the other since the advertising is being used to help fund this thing if your answer to above was the astronomers then feel free to come up with some other way to fund the to my mind more important research data that would be gained by this without spending any more of my money to do it in other words put up or shut up i guess we really deserve being wiped out by uv radiation folks stupidity wins i guess that s true and if only by pure numbers probably so i m just not sure we agree about who the stupid are another depressed planetary citizen hoover yeah me too insisting on perfect safety is for people who don t have the balls to live in the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com i don t speak for others and they don t speak for me
sci.space	re planets still images orbit by ether twist in apr zeus calpoly edu dmcaloon tuba calpoly edu david mcaloon writes ether implodes earth core is gravity if not for the lack of extraneously capitalized words i d swear that mcelwaine had changed his name and moved to cal poly i also find the choice of newsgroups interesting perhaps someone should tell this guy that sci astro doesn t stand for astrology it s truly frightening that posts like this are originating at what are ostensibly centers of higher learning in this country small wonder that the rest of the world thinks we re all nuts and that we have the problems that we do in case you haven t gotten it yet david i don t think this was quite appropriate for a posting to sci groups insisting on perfect safety is for people who don t have the balls to live in the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com i don t speak for others and they don t speak for me
sci.space	re comet in temporary orbit around jupiter in a message of apr jgarland kean ucs mun ca writes in article apr sq sq com msb sq sq com mark brader writes mb so the mb figure seems unlikely to actually be anything but a perijove jg sorry perijoves i m not used to talking this language couldn t we just say periapsis or apoapsis msged
sci.space	re moonbase race sysmgr king eng umd edu doug mohney writes allen sometimes i think you re ok and sometimes you tend to rashly leap in making statement without thinking them out wanna guess which today you d need to launch hlvs to send up large amounts of stuff do you know of a private titan pad doug actually if memory serves the atlas is an outgrowth of the old titan icbm if so there s probably quite a few old pads albeit in need of some serious reconditioning still being able to buy the turf and pad and bunkers including prep facility at midwest farmland prices strikes me as pretty damned cheap charlie prael dante shakala com shakala bbs clanzen radio network sunnyvale ca
sci.space	death and taxes was why not give billion to in my first posting on this subject i threw out an idea of how to fund such a contest without delving to deep into the budget i mentioned granting mineral rights to the winner my actual wording was mining rights somebody pointed out quite correctly that such rights are not anybody s to grant although i imagine it would be a fait accompli situation for the winner so how about this give the winning group i can t see one company or corp doing it a or year moratorium on taxes tom freebairn
sci.space	re planets still images orbit by ether twist dmcaloon tuba calpoly edu david mcaloon writes lots of trippy stuff deleted wow what is this guy smoking and where can i get some dan daniel k appelquist quanta is the electronically published and distributed dan visix com magazine of science fiction and fantasy for more information send mail to quanta andrew cmu edu or fax for back issues ftp export acs cmu edu id anonymous
sci.space	galileo update forwarded from neal ausman galileo mission director galileo mission director status report post launch april spacecraft on april cruise science memory readouts mros were performed for the extreme ultraviolet spectrometer euv dust detector dds and magnetometer mag instruments preliminary analysis indicates the data was received properly on april a command detector unit signal to noise ratio cdusnr test and a radio frequency subsystem automatic gain control rfsagc test were performed using the lga low gain antenna over dss madrid meter antenna and dss madrid meter antenna respectively data analysis is in process these tests are periodically performed to provide detailed information relative to the telecom command hardware integrity on april a no op command was sent to reset the command loss timer to hours its planned value during this mission phase on april the first of two suppressed carrier dsn deep space network advanced receiver characterization tests was performed over dss goldstone meter antenna the spacecraft modulation index was varied from degrees to degrees for a range of ground receiver bandwidth settings the ac bus imbalance measurement has not exhibited significant change greater than dn throughout this period but the dc bus imbalance measurement has the ac measurement reads dn volts the dc measurement has ranged from dn volts to dn volts and currently reads dn volts these measurements are consistent with the model developed by the ac dc special anomaly team the spacecraft status as of april is as follows a system power margin watts b spin configuration dual spin c spin rate sensor rpm star scanner d spacecraft attitude is approximately degrees off sun lagging and degrees off earth leading e downlink telemetry rate antenna bps coded lga f general thermal control all temperatures within acceptable range g rpm tank pressures all within acceptable range h orbiter science instruments powered on are the pws euv uvs epd mag hic and dds i probe rrh powered off temperatures within acceptable range j cmd loss timer setting hours time to initiation hours trajectory as of noon thursday april the galileo spacecraft trajectory status was as follows distance from earth km au distance from sun km au heliocentric speed km per hour distance from jupiter km round trip light time minutes seconds special topic as of april a total of real time commands have been transmitted to galileo since launch of these were initiated in the sequence design process and initiated in the real time command process in the past week one real time command was transmitted one was initiated in the sequence design process and none initiated in the real time command process the only command activity was a command to reset the command loss timer ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab m s telos the aweto from new zealand pasadena ca is part caterpillar and part vegetable
sci.space	re inflatable mile long space billboards was re vandalizing the sky yamauchi ces cwru edu brian yamauchi writes enzo research canon oz au enzo liguori writes what s new in my opinion friday april washington dc now space marketing is working with university of colorado and livermore engineers on a plan to place a mile long inflatable billboard in low earth orbit this sounds like something lowell wood would think of does anyone know if he s involved no the idea was suggested around here during discussions of possible near term commercial space activities one of the folks involved in those discussions a spacecraft engineer named preston carter passed the suggestion on to some entreprenurial types and mike lawson is apparently going ahead with it preston is now at llnl and is working with space marketing on the sensors that might be carried nasa would provide contractual launch services however since nasa bases its charge on seriously flawed cost estimates wn mar the taxpayers would bear most of the expense actually that sounds unlikely i don t know what the launch vehicle would be but i would expect it to go on a commercial launcher certainly not on the shuttle and the fraction of the cost paid to nasa for e g launch support would probably cover nasa s incremental costs pretty well this may look like environmental vandalism but mike lawson ceo of space marketing told us yesterday that the real purpose of the project is to help the environment the platform will carry ozone monitors he explained advertising is just to help defray costs this may be the purpose for the university of colorado people my guess is that the purpose for the livermore people is to learn how to build large inflatable space structures no as noted llnl is involved in lightweight sensor design per clementine and related programs i m sure folks around here would like to see a demonstration of a modern inflatable structure but after all the u s did the echo satellites long ago and an advertising structure would not be much closer to an inflatable space station than echo was or a parade balloon for that matter what do you think of this revolting and hideous attempt to vandalize the night sky it is not even april anymore while i happen to personally dislike the idea mostly because i ve got a background in astronomy it s hardly vandalism it would be a short lived intrusion on the night sky doing no permanent damage and actually hurting only a small subset of astronomers on the other hand it would certainly draw attention to space if this is true i think it s a great idea learning how to build structures in space in an essential step towards space development which unfortunately this is not likely to contribute much to if such a project also monitors ozone depletion and demonstrates creative use of partial private sector funding in the process so much the better is nasa really supporting this junk as far as i know it s a purely commercial venture and does anyone have any more details other than what was in the wn news blip how serious is this project is this just in the wild idea stage or does it have real funding i gather it is being very seriously discussed with possible advertisers commercial projects however generally don t get funding they get customers whether it will have customers remains to be seen are protesting groups being organized in the states not yet though if this project goes through i suppose the return of jeremy rifkin is inevitable nahh he s too busy watching for mutant bacteria to notice anything in the sky brian yamauchi case western reserve university yamauchi alpha ces cwru edu department of computer engineering and science jordin kare jtk s gov lawrence livermore national laboratory these are my personal views only and do not represent official statements or positions of llnl the university of california or the u s doe
sci.space	re comet in temporary orbit around jupiter phil g fraering writes mark brader writes thanks again one final question the name gehrels wasn t known to me before this thread came up but the may issue of scientific american has an article about the inconstant cosmos with a photo of neil gehrels project scientist for nasa s compton gamma ray observatory same person no i estimate a probability the gehrels referred to is thomas gehrels of the spacewatch project kitt peak observatory you may change that to certainty but to clarify spacewatch is a university of arizona project using a telescope of the steward observatory located on kitt peak it is not associated with kitt peak national observatory other than sharing a mountain
sci.space	re planets still images orbit by ether twist actually the ether stuff sounded a fair bit like a bizzare qualitative corruption of general relativity nothing to do with the old fashioned ether though maybe somebody could loan him a gr text at a low level didn t get much further than that tho whew greg
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky in article c t k db research canon oz au enzo research canon oz au enzo liguori writes now space marketing is working with university of colorado and livermore engineers on a plan to place a mile long inflatable billboard in low earth orbit nasa would provide contractual launch services however since nasa bases its charge on seriously flawed cost estimates wn mar the taxpayers would bear most of the expense this may look like environmental vandalism but mike lawson ceo of space marketing told us yesterday that the real purpose of the project is to help the environment the platform will carry ozone monitors he explained advertising is just to help defray costs how could this possibly be environmental vandalism when there is no environment to vandalize up there since the advertising is just to help defray costs it s certainly no surprise that the taxpayers would bear most of the expense sounds like a good idea to me since the taxpayers would bear all of the expense if they didn t do the advertising what do you think of this revolting and hideous attempt to vandalize the night sky great idea they should have done it long ago what about light pollution in observations i read somewhere else that it might even be visible during the day leave alone at night i can t believe that a mile long billboard would have any significant effect on the overall sky brightness venus is visible during the day but nobody complains about that besides it s in leo so it would only be visible during twilight when the sky is already bright and even if it would have some miniscule impact it would be only for a short time as it goes zipping across the sky are protesting groups being organized in the states no doubt people are always looking for something to protest about so it would be no surprise really really depressed well look on the er bright side imagine the looks on the faces of people in primitive tribes out in the middle of nowhere as they look up and see a can of budweiser flying across the sky d jeff cook jeff cook ftcollinsco ncr com
sci.space	re big amateur rockets pbd runyon cim cdc com paul dokas writes i was reading popular science this morning and was surprised by an ad in the back i know that a lot of the ads in the back of ps are fringe science or questionablely legal but this one really grabbed my attention it was from a company name personal missle inc or something like that the company was probably public missiles inc of michigan anyhow the ad stated that they d sell rockets that were up to in length and engines of sizes f to m they also said that some rockets will reach feet yup now aside from the obvious dangers to any amateur rocketeer using one of these beasts isn t this illegal i can t imagine the faa allowing people to shoot rockets up through the flight levels of passenger planes not to even mention the problem of locating a rocket when it comes down nope it s not illegal it is however closely regulated in order to purchase and use the big rocket motors required it is necessary to be one of the following a an employee of a government agency b an employee or student at a university doing research involving rockets c a member or representative of an educational organization involved in research or other uses of rockets there are two such organizations the tripoli rocketry association and the national association of rocketry members of either organization must demonstrate proficiency in construction and flight before they are allowed to purchase large motors on their own the faa will issue a waiver of its regulations upon request to any organization which can persuade them it has taken adequate precautions to avoid conflicts with aircraft the usual stipulations are only operation up to a specified ceiling is allowed depending on the location this ceiling may be from to feet agl the operator of the rocket is responsible for avoiding any aircraft within the operating radius around the launch site flight into clouds or beyond visual range in haze is expressly prohibited the faa will provide a notam informing other users of the airspace that unmanned rocket operations are taking place at the specified place and time most of the launches that are held and there are dozens of them every year are held in areas where air traffic is relatively light such as over the western deserts the black rock desert north of reno is particularly popular since it is x miles of nothing to hit on the ground the two rocketry associations test and approve motors for their members use to insure safety depending on motor size the launcher setback is from to or more feet by the way rockets under lb and powered by an f motor are exempt from most federal regulations on unmanned rockets anyway see far subpart c for details as for recovery although the higher altitude rockets can reach up to feet most of them only get to to feet the typical rocket is to inches in diameter and carries a to foot parachute or multiple parachutes depending on the payload many rockets also carry either a small transmitter or an audio sounder particularly at launches in the eastern us where there are more obstructions camera telemetry transmitter and video payloads are becoming quite common and no i m not going to even think of buying one i m not that crazy why not it s a lot of fun check out the traffic on rec models rockets for information about the model lb and under and high power everything bigger rocket hobbies as with all dangerous activities the key is to practice safety i ve been flying consumer rockets ranging up to lbs takeoff weight for years and still have all my extremities intact paul mine ll do feet and carries pounds of dynamite dokas that s another thing no explosive warheads of any kind are allowed on these rockets none please forgive me for shouting but that s one of the biggest misconceptions people have about our hobby just remember you will die someday true but it will not be related to the rocket hobby unless i get hit while crossing a road with a rocket in my hand mark johnson usnail ncr peripheral products division e mail mark johnson wichitaks ncr com n rock rd voice v wichita ks non business email compuserve com
sci.space	re new planet kuiper object found francisco da fonseca rodrigues writes tonigth a tv journal here in brasil announced that an object beyond pluto s orbit was found by an observatory at hawaii they named the object karla the name is a working name only quite unofficial the formal designation is fw the program said the object wasn t a gaseous giant planet and should be composed by rocks and ices can someone confirm these information could this object be a new planet or a kuiper object it s most likely a kuiper belt object with an estimated diameter of km the orbit hasn t been determined well enough yet to say much more about it
sci.space	re moonbase race in article r rn innn mojo eng umd edu sysmgr king eng umd edu writes you d need to launch hlvs to send up large amounts of stuff do you know of a private titan pad you d need to launch hlvs to send up large amounts of stuff if you assume no new launcher development if you assume new launcher development with lower costs as a specific objective then you probably don t want to build something hlv sized anyway nobody who is interested in launching things cheaply will buy titans it doesn t take many titan pricetags to pay for a laser launcher or a large gas gun or a development program for a big dumb booster all of which would have far better cost effectiveness
sci.space	re moonbase race nasa resources why in article keithley kip apple com keithley apple com craig keithley writes ah there s the rub and a catch to boot for the purposes of a contest you ll probably not compete if n you can t afford the ride to get there and although lower priced delivery systems might be doable without demand its doubtful that anyone will develop a new system you re assuming that the low cost delivery system has to be a separate project but why if you are spending hundreds of millions of dollars in hopes of winning a billion dollar prize it is cheaper to develop your own launch system charging its entire development cost against your contest entry than to try to do it with existing launchers no other demand is necessary any plan for doing sustained lunar exploration using existing launch systems is wasting money in a big way this depends on the how soon the new launch system comes on line in other words perhaps a great deal of worthwhile technology life support navigation etc could be developed prior to a low cost launch system you wouldn t want to use the expensive stuff forever but i d hate to see folks waiting to do anything until a low cost mac oops i mean launch system comes on line you re assuming that it s going to take a decade to build a new launch system but why the saturn v took less than six years depending on exactly when you date its start pegasus took about three from project start to first flight before sdio chickened out on orbital development the target date for an orbital dc y flight was if you really want speed consider that the first prototypes of the thor missile still in service as the core of the delta launcher shipped to the usaf less than months after the development go ahead one of the most pernicious myths in this whole business is the belief that you can t build a launcher without taking ten years and spending billions of dollars it isn t true and never was
sci.space	re moonbase race in article hgf b w w shakala com dante shakala com charlie prael writes doug actually if memory serves the atlas is an outgrowth of the old titan icbm nope you re confusing separate programs atlas was the first generation us icbm titan i was the second generation one titan ii which all the titan launchers are based on was the third generation heavy icbm there was essentially nothing in common between these three programs yes three programs despite the similarity of names titan i and titan ii were completely different missiles they didn t even use the same fuels never mind the same launch facilities if so there s probably quite a few old pads albeit in need of some serious reconditioning still being able to buy the turf and pad and bunkers including prep facility at midwest farmland prices strikes me as pretty damned cheap sorry the titan silos a can t handle the titan launchers with their large srbs b can t handle any sort of launcher without massive violations of normal range safety rules nobody cares about such things in the event of a nuclear war but in peacetime they matter and c were scrapped years ago
sci.space	re sunrise sunset times in article r f a ai news umbc edu rouben math math umbc edu rouben rostamian writes hello i am looking for a program or algorithm that can be used to compute sunrise and sunset times here is a computation i did a long time ago that computes the length of the daylight you should be able to convert the information here to sunrise and sunset times sorry not so the changes in sunrise and sunset times are not quite synchronized for example neither the earliest sunrise nor the latest sunset comes on the longest day of the year you can derive day length from sunrise and sunset times but not vice versa
sci.space	re old spacecraft as navigation beacons in article apr aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes other idea for old space crafts is as navigation beacons and such why not because to be any use as a nav point you need to know exactly where it is which means you either nail it to something that doesn t move or you watch it all the time neither of which is possible on a deactivated spacecraft then you have to know exactly how far away from it you are this may or may not be possible with the hardware on board apart from which there is absolutely no need for navigation beacons gregory bond gnb bby com au burdett buckeridge young ltd melbourne australia knox s is slick fox in sox on knox s box knox s box is very quick plays lots of lsl he s sick apologies to john iron bar mackin
sci.space	re abyss breathing fluids loss fs ece cmu edu doug loss writes besides the mechanical problems of moving so dense a medium in oan out of the lungs diaphragm fatigue etc is there likely to be a problem with the mixture i mean since the lungs never expel all the air in them the inhaled air has to mix pretty quickly with the residual air in the lungs to provide a useful partial pressure of oxygen right would this mixing be substantially faster slower at the pressures we re talking about there was an interesting article in scientific american some time ago about breathing liquid it was a few months before the abyss came out as far as i can remember they mentioned three things that were difficult to do at once with a substitute breathing fluid low viscosity if it s too difficult to force the fluid in out of the lungs you can t extract enough oxygen to power your own breathing effort let alone anything else diffusion rate obviously not all the air in your lungs is expelled when you breathe out and the part that isn t expelled is the part that s nearest the walls of the alveoli alveolus so the trip from the blood vessels to the new air has to be done by diffusion of the gas through the fluid apparently oxygen tends to diffuse more readily than co so even if you can get enough oxygen in you might not be able to get enough co out oxygen co capacity you have to be able to dissolve enough gas per unit volume oh and of course your new breathing fluid must not irritate the lungs or interfere with their healing or anything like that wim lewis wiml u washington edu
sci.space	re keeping spacecraft on after funding cuts in c w zj hhq murdoch acc virginia edu greg hennessy writes in article r aqr dnv access digex net prb access digex com pat writes the better question should be why not transfer o m of all birds to a separate agency with continous funding to support these kind of ongoing science missions since we don t have the money to keep them going now how will changing them to a seperate agency help anything how about transferring control to a non profit organisation that is able to accept donations to keep craft operational greg nicholls vidi nicho vnet ibm com or vici nicho olympus demon co uk veni
sci.space	re death and taxes was why not give billion to in article apr indyvax iupui edu tffreeba indyvax iupui edu writes in my first posting on this subject i threw out an idea of how to fund such a contest without delving to deep into the budget i mentioned granting mineral rights to the winner my actual wording was mining rights somebody pointed out quite correctly that such rights are not anybody s to grant although i imagine it would be a fait accompli situation for the winner so how about this give the winning group i can t see one company or corp doing it a or year moratorium on taxes tom freebairn who says there is no mineral rights to be given who says the un or the us government major question is if you decide to mine the moon or mars who will stop you the un can t other than legal tom foolerie can the truly inforce it if you go to the moon as declare that you are now a soverign nation who will stop you from doing it maybe not acknowledge you why can t a small company or corp or organization go an explore the great beyond of space what right does earth have to say what is legal and what is not maybe i am a few years ahead on this it is liek the old catholic church stating which was portugals and what was spains and along came the reformation and made it all null and void what can happen is to find a nation which is acknowledged and offer your services as a space miner and then go mine the asteroids mars moon or what ever as long as yur sponsor does not get in trouble basically find a country who wants to go into space but can t for soem reason or another but who will give you a home such as saudia arabia or whatever there are nations in the world who are not part of the un got to them and offer your services and such i know that sound crazy but is it also once you have the means to mine the moon or whatever then just do it the un if done right can be made to be so busy with something else they will not care if your worried about the us do the same thing why be limited by the short sighted people of earth after all they have many other things to worry about that if someone is mining the moon or mars or what ever basically what i am saying is where is that drive of yeasteryears to go a little bit farther out to do jus ta little bit more and to tell the crown to piss off if my ancestors thought the way many today think id have been born in central europe just north of the black sea i just read a good book tower of the gods interesting michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked
sci.space	re eco freaks forcing space mining in article r b v ec access digex net prb access digex com pat writes besides this was the same line of horse puckey the mining companies claimed when they were told to pay for restoring land after strip mining they still mine coal in the midwest but now it doesn t look like the moon when theyare done pat i aint talking the large or even the mining companies i am talking the small miners the people who have themselves and a few employees if at all the people who go out every year and set up thier sluice box and such and do mining the semi old fashion way okay they use modern methods toa point i am talking the guy who coem to nome evry year sets up his tent on the beach the beach was washed away last year and sets up his her sluice box and goes at it mining i know the large corps such as alaska gold company might complain to my opinions are what i learn at the local bs table my original thing idea was that the way to get space mining was to allow the eco freaks thier way as they have done with other mineral development you can t in many places can t go to the bathroom in the woods without some form of regulation covering it michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked
sci.space	billboard station space dock seems that the mile long billboard and any other inflateble space object station or what ever have the same problems other than being a little bit different than the normal space ideas such as trusses and shuttles but also dag and such why not combine the discussion of how and fesibility to the same topic i personnelly liek the idea of a billboard in space but problem how do you service it fly a shuttle dc to near it and then dismount and fly to it or what or havign a special docking section for shuttle dc docking also what if the billboard springs a leak self sealing and such just thinking okay rambling also why must the now inflated billboard not be covered in the inside by a harder substance such as a polymer or other agent and then the now hard billboard would be a now giant docking structure space dock station or am i missing something here probably am michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked
sci.space	re abyss breathing fluids are breathable liquids possible i remember seeing an old nova or the nature of things where this idea was touched upon it might have been some other tv show if nothing else i know such liquids are possible because they showed a large glass full of this liquid and put a white mouse rat in it since the liquid was not dense the mouse would float so it was held down by tongs clutching its tail the thing struggled quite a bit but it was certainly held down long enough so that it was breathing the liquid it never did slow down in its frantic attempts to swim to the top now this may not have been the most humane of demonstrations but it certainly shows breathable liquids can be made isaac kuo isaackuo math berkeley edu o twinkle twinkle little sig keep it less than lines big
sci.space	re crazy or just imaginitive apr aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes so some of my ideas are a bit odd off the wall and such but so was wilbur and orville wright and quite a few others sorry if i do not have the big degrees and such but i think i might be wrong to error is human i have something that is in many ways just as important i have imagination dreams and without dreams all the knowledge is worthless oh and us with the big degrees don t got imagination huh the alleged dichotomy between imagination and knowledge is one of the most pernicious fallacys of the new age michael thanks for the generous offer but we have quite enough dreams of our own thank you you on the other hand are letting your own dreams go to waste by failing to get the maths thermodynamics chemistry your choices here which would give your imagination wings just to show this isn t a flame i leave you with a quote from invasion of the body snatchers become one of us it s not so bad you know del cotter mt dac brunel ac uk
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky i posted this over in sci astro but it didn t make it here thought you all would like my wonderful pithy commentary what you guys have never seen the goodyear blimp polluting the daytime and nightime skies actually an oribital sign would only be visible near sunset and sunrise i believe so pollution at night would be minimal if it pays for space travel go for it those who don t like spatial billboards can then head for the pristine environment of jupiter s moons thomas clarke institute for simulation and training university of central fl research parkway suite orlando fl fax clarke acme ucf edu
sci.space	vandalizing the sky from phil g fraering pgf srl cacs usl edu finally this isn t the bronze age please try to remember that there are more human activities than those practiced by the warrior caste the farming caste and the priesthood right the profiting caste is blessed by god and may freely blare its presence in the evening twilight fred baube tm
sci.space	command loss timer re galileo update in article apr kelvin jpl nasa gov baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov ron baalke writes on april a no op command was sent to reset the command loss timer to hours its planned value during this mission phase this activity is regularly reported in ron s interesting posts could someone explain what the command loss timer is thanks alan belle vue court they re unfriendly which home belle vue terrace is fortunate really they d away great malvern be difficult to like work worcestershire wr pz kerr avon blake s seven temporary agc bnr ca england permanent alan gid co uk
sci.space	re death and taxes was why not give billion to in article apr aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes in article apr indyvax iupui edu tffreeba indyvax iupui edu writes somebody pointed out quite correctly that such rights are not anybody s to grant although i imagine it would be a fait accompli situation for the winner so how about this give the winning group i can t see one company or corp doing it a or year moratorium on taxes tom freebairn who says there is no mineral rights to be given who says the un or the us government tom s right about this it s only a grantable right if the granter has the will and the ability to stop anyone from taking it away from you never mind the legal status major question is if you decide to mine the moon or mars who will stop you the un can t other than legal tom foolerie can the truly inforce it nick s right about this it s always easier to obtain forgiveness than permission not many people remember that britain s king george iii expressly forbid his american subjects to cross the alleghany appalachian mountains said subjects basically said stop us if you can he couldn t if you go to the moon as declare that you are now a soverign nation who will stop you from doing it maybe not acknowledge you that s how the usa started of course that s also how the bolivarian republic started ca in central america it didn t have quite the staying power of the usa i m sure there are more examples of going far away and then ignoring authority but none jump to mind right now what can happen is to find a nation which is acknowledged and offer your services as a space miner and then go mine the asteroids mars moon or what ever as long as yur sponsor does not get in trouble or do as some whaling nations do define whatever activities you want to carry out as scientific research which just coincidentally requires the recovery of megatonnes of minerals or whatever then go at it basically find a country who wants to go into space but can t for soem reason or another but who will give you a home such as saudia arabia or whatever lute keyser had just this sort of arrangement with libya i think in the late s for his commercial space launch project one of the very earliest it was killed by soviet propaganda about nato cruise missiles in africa which made libya renege on the arrangement doug loss
sci.space	re death and taxes was why not give billion to in my last post i referred to michael adams as nick completely my error nick adams was a film and tv actor from the s and early s remember johnny yuma the rebel he was from my part of the country and michael s email address of nmsca probably helped confuse things in my mind purely user headspace error on my part sorry doug loss
sci.space	re sunrise sunset times in article apr titan tsd arlut utexas edu pearson tsd arlut utexas edu n shirlene pearson writes jpw cbis ece drexel edu joseph wetstein writes hello i am looking for a program or algorithm that can be used to compute sunrise and sunset times would you mind posting the responses you get i am also interested and there may be others thanks n shirlene pearson pearson titan tsd arlut utexas edu there is an excellent software program called astro calc that does that and much more the latest address i have is mmi corporation po box baltimore md phone van e neie ven maxwell physics purdue edu purdue university neie purccvm bitnet
sci.space	space station redesign chief resigns for health reasons writer kathy sawyer reported in today s washington post that joseph shea the head of the space station redesign has resigned for health reasons shea was hospitalized shortly after his selection in february he returned yesterday to lead the formal presentation to the independent white house panel shea s presentation was rambling and almost inaudible shea s deputy former astronaut bryan o connor will take over the effort goldin asserted that the redesign effort is on track chuck divine
sci.space	re clementine mission name wales larrison ofa fidonet org writes old pioneer song from the s or so goes as follows in a cavern in a canyon excavating for a mine dwelt a miner forty niner and his daughter clementine chorus oh my darling oh my darling oh my darling clementine you are lost and gone forever oh my darling clementine let us hope that the performance of the spacecraft follows the sentiments of the first verse miner rather than the second lost and gone forever bruce dunn vancouver canada bruce dunn mindlink bc ca
sci.space	dreams and degrees was re crazy or just imaginitive in article c xp k g brunel ac uk mt dac brunel ac uk del cotter writes apr aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes sorry if i do not have the big degrees and such but i think i might be wrong to error is human i have something that is in many ways just as important i have imagination dreams and without dreams all the knowledge is worthless oh and us with the big degrees don t got imagination huh the alleged dichotomy between imagination and knowledge is one of the most pernicious fallacys of the new age michael thanks for the generous offer but we have quite enough dreams of our own thank you well said you on the other hand are letting your own dreams go to waste by failing to get the maths thermodynamics chemistry your choices here which would give your imagination wings just to show this isn t a flame i leave you with a quote from invasion of the body snatchers become one of us it s not so bad you know okay del so michael was being unfair but you are being unfair back he is taking college courses now i presume he is studying hard and his postings reveal that he is somewhat hip to the technical issues of astronautics plus he is attentively following the erudite discourse of the big brains who post to sci space is it not inevitable that he will get a splendid technical education from reading the likes of you and me like others involved in sci space mr adams shows symptoms of being a fledgling member of the technoculture and i think he s soaking it up fast i was a young guy with dreams once and they led me to get a technical education to follow them up too bad i wound up in an assembly line job stamping out identical neutrinos day after day though rumors persist that del and i are both pseudonyms of fred mccall bill higgins beam jockey we ll see you fermi national accelerator laboratory at white sands in june bitnet higgins fnal bitnet you bring your view graphs internet higgins fnal fnal gov and i ll bring my rocketship span hepnet higgins col pete worden on the dc x
sci.space	re command loss timer re galileo update in article apr bnr ca agc bmdhh bnr ca alan carter writes in article apr kelvin jpl nasa gov baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov ron baalke writes on april a no op command was sent to reset the command loss timer to hours its planned value during this mission phase this activity is regularly reported in ron s interesting posts could someone explain what the command loss timer is the command loss timer is part of the fault protection scheme of the spacecraft if the command loss timer ever countdowns to zero then the spacecraft assumes it has lost communications with earth and will go through a set of predetermined steps to try to regain contact the command loss timer is set to hours and reset about once a week during the cruise phase and is set to a lower value during an encounter phase ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab m s telos the aweto from new zealand pasadena ca is part caterpillar and part vegetable
sci.space	re eco freaks forcing space mining in article apr aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes here is a way to get the commericial companies into space and mineral exploration basically get the eco freaks to make it so hard to get the minerals on earth they aren t going to leave a loophole as glaring as space mining quite a few of those people are when you come right down to it basically against industrial civilization they won t stop with shutting down the mines here that is only a means to an end for them now the worst thing you can say to a true revolutionary is that his revolution is unnecessary that the problems can be corrected without radical change telling people that paradise can be attained without the revolution is treason of the vilest kind trying to harness these people to support spaceflight is like trying to harness a buffalo to pull your plough he s got plenty of muscle all right but the furrow will go where he wants not where you want all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	re keeping spacecraft on after funding cuts in article almaden ibm com nicho vnet ibm com writes since we don t have the money to keep them going now how will changing them to a seperate agency help anything how about transferring control to a non profit organisation that is able to accept donations to keep craft operational the problem is you can t raise adequate amounts of money that way the viking fund tried they did succeed in a way but only because of the political impact of their fundraising the actual amount of money they raised was fairly inconsequential it would not have kept the viking lander going by itself all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	re command loss timer re galileo update in article apr bnr ca agc bmdhh bnr ca alan carter writes a no op command was sent to reset the command loss timer this activity is regularly reported in ron s interesting posts could someone explain what the command loss timer is if i m not mistaken this is the usual sort of precaution against loss of communications that timer is counting down continuously if it ever hits zero that means galileo hasn t heard from earth in a suspiciously long time and it may be galileo s fault so it s time to go into a fallback mode that minimizes chances of spacecraft damage and maximizes chances of restoring contact i don t know exactly what all galileo does in such a situation but a common example is to switch receivers on the theory that maybe the one you re listening with has died all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	re space news from feb aw st in article c ros uy zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes pluto s atmosphere will start to freeze out around and after about increasing areas of both pluto and charon will be in permanent shadow that will make imaging and geochemical mapping impossible where does the shadow come from there s nothing close enough to block sunlight from hitting them i wouldn t expect there to be anything block our view of them either what am i missing jim
sci.space	re death and taxes was why not give billion nsmca aurora alaska edu university of alaska fairbanks writes a good deal of healthy if not deeply thought out idealism deleted below major question is if you decide to mine the moon or mars who will stop you can the truly inforce it if their parent company does business and they will on the face of the earth then they are vulnerable to govt sanctions yes they can be stopped if you go to the moon as declare that you are now a soverign nation who will stop you from doing it for the first imho years nobody will have to the colonists will be too dependent on earth too pull it off eventually they will history shows us that also once you have the means to mine the moon or whatever then just do it the un if done right can be made to be so busy with something else they will not care what exactly do you mean here terrorism start an international incident so your dream can come true crack a few eggs to make the omelet this sounds fairly irresponsible basically what i am saying is where is that drive of yeasteryears to go a little bit farther out to do jus ta little bit more and to tell the crown to piss off if my ancestors thought the way many today think id have been born in central europe just north of the black sea again the tie that binds will be much stronger for space colonists than any immigrants that have gone before even those intrepid asian explorers that crossed the bering land bridge did not have to carry their air on their backs michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked keep the dream alive maybe dream it a little more cogently tom freebairn there once was a man who built a boat to sail away in it sank j p donleavy fairy tale of new york maybe
sci.space	comet when did will she launch comet commercial experiment transport is to launch from wallops island virginia and orbit earth for about days it is scheduled to come down in the utah test training range west of salt lake city utah i saw a message in this group toward the end of march that it was to launch on march does anyone know if it launched on that day or if not when it is scheduled to launch and or when it will come down i would also be interested in what kind s of payload s are onboard thanks for your help norman anderson nanderso endor sim es com
sci.space	re command loss timer re galileo update interesting question about galileo galileo s hga is stuck the hga was left closed because galileo had a venus flyby if the hga were pointed att he sun near venus it would cook the foci elements question why couldn t galileo s course manuevers have been designed such that the hga did not ever do a sun point after all it would normally be aimed at earth anyway or would it be that an emergency situation i e spacecraft safing and seek might have caused an hga sun point pat
sci.space	hst servicing mission scheduled for days ed campion headquarters washington d c april phone kyle herring johnson space center houston phone release hubble telescope servicing mission scheduled for eleven days the december flight of endeavour on space shuttle mission sts to service the hubble space telescope hst has been scheduled as an day mission designed to accommodate a record five spacewalks with the capability for an additional two if needed the decision to schedule five extravehicular activities or evas was reached following extensive evaluations of underwater training maneuver times required using the shuttle s robot arm based on software simulations and actual eva tasks on previous missions basically what we ve done by going to five evas rather than three is to repackage our margin so that we have the capability to respond to the dynamics or unknowns of spacewalks mission director randy brinkley said it improves the probabilities for mission success while providing added flexibility and adaptability for reacting to real time situations in laying out the specific tasks to be completed on each of the spacewalks officials have determined that changing out the gyros solar arrays and the wide field planetary camera wf pc and installing the corrective optics space telescope axial replacement costar are priority objectives during the mission when we looked at accomplishing all of the tasks highest through lowest priority and recognizing that the major tasks gyros solar arrays wf pc and costar would consume most of the time set aside for each spacewalk five evas were deemed appropriate said milt heflin lead flight director for the mission while the five spacewalks will be unprecedented the use of two alternating spacewalk teams will alleviate placing more stress on the crew than previous missions requiring two three or four evas we have paid close attention to lessons learned during previous spacewalks and factored these into our timeline estimates for five evas heflin said in planning for all space shuttle missions it is necessary to formulate a work schedule that represents as realistic a timeline as possible to accomplish the mission objectives planning currently calls for at least five water tank training sessions that include support from the mission control center called joint integrated simulations lasting between and hours in addition many stand alone underwater training runs will practice individual tasks in each spacewalk various refinements to the specific tasks on each spacewalk will be made based on actual training experience during the months prior to the mission also lessons learned from other spacewalks leading up to the flight will be valuable in assisting the sts crew in its training techniques endeavour s june flight and discovery s july mission both will include spacewalks to evaluate some of the unique tools to be used on the hst mission the evaluations will help in better understanding the differences between the actual weightlessness of space and the ground training in the water tanks at the johnson space center houston and the marshall space flight center huntsville ala also the inflight spacewalking experiences will assist in gaining further insight into the time required for the various tasks and expand the experience levels among the astronaut corps the flight controllers and trainers designed to be serviced by a space shuttle crew hubble was built with grapple fixtures and handholds to assist in the capture and repair procedures the telescope was launched aboard discovery in april at that time the nasa mixed fleet manifest showed the first revisit mission to hst in to change out science instruments and make any repairs that may have become necessary end ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab m s telos the aweto from new zealand pasadena ca is part caterpillar and part vegetable
sci.space	re moonbase race nasa resources why henry didn t the little joe and big joe get built in under a year months for little joe and months for big joe i thought i saw something on that for a old mercury film pat
sci.space	re eco freaks forcing space mining in article apr aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes in article r b v ec access digex net prb access digex com pat writes besides this was the same line of horse puckey the mining companies claimed when they were told to pay for restoring land after strip mining i aint talking the large or even the mining companies i am talking the small miners the people who have themselves and a few employees if at all the people who go out every year and set up thier sluice box and such and do mining the semi old fashion way okay they use modern methods toa point lot s of these small miners are no longer miners they are people living rent free on federal land under the claim of being a miner the facts are many of these people do not sustaint heir income from mining do not often even live their full time and do fotentimes do a fair bit of environmental damage these minign statutes were created inthe s s when the west was uninhabited and were designed to bring people into the frontier times change people change deal you don t have a constitutional right to live off the same industry forever anyone who claims the have a right to their job in particular is spouting nonsense this has been a long term federal welfare program that has outlived it s usefulness pat
sci.space	re planets still images orbit by ether twist in sci astro dmcaloon tuba calpoly edu david mcaloon writes a nearly perfect parody needed more random caps thanks for the chuckle i loved the bit about relevance to people starving in somalia to those who ve taken this seriously read the name aloud thank you thank you i ll be here all week enjoy the buffet
sci.space	re why dc will be the way of the future in r ub mgl access digex net prb access digex com pat writes in article apr julian uwo ca jdnicoll prism ccs uwo ca james davis nicoll writes hmmm i seem to recall that the attraction of solid state record players and radios in the s wasn t better performance but lower per unit cost than vacuum tube systems i don t think so at first but solid state offered better reliabity id bet and any lower costs would be only after the processes really scaled up careful making statements about how solid state is generally more reliable than analog will get you a nasty follow up from tommy mac or pat wait a minute you are pat pleased to see that you re not suffering from the bugaboos of a small mind insisting on perfect safety is for people who don t have the balls to live in the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com i don t speak for others and they don t speak for me
sci.space	re command loss timer re galileo update in apr bnr ca agc bmdhh bnr ca alan carter writes in article apr kelvin jpl nasa gov baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov ron baalke writes on april a no op command was sent to reset the command loss timer to hours its planned value during this mission phase this activity is regularly reported in ron s interesting posts could someone explain what the command loss timer is the command loss timer is a timer that does just what its name says it indicates to the probe that it has lost its data link for receiving commands upon expiration of the command loss timer i believe the probe starts a search for earth sequence involving antenna pointing and attitude changes which consume fuel to try to reestablish communications no ops are sent periodically through those periods when there are no real commands to be sent just so the probe knows that we haven t forgotten about it hope that s clear enough to be comprehensible insisting on perfect safety is for people who don t have the balls to live in the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com i don t speak for others and they don t speak for me
sci.space	re new planet kuiper object found if the new kuiper belt object is called karla the next one should be called smiley james nicoll
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky jeff cook ftcollinsco ncr com jeff cook writes in article c t k db research canon oz au enzo research canon oz au enzo liguori writes now space marketing what about light pollution in observations i read somewhere else that it might even be visible during the day leave alone at night i can t believe that a mile long billboard would have any significant effect on the overall sky brightness venus is visible during the day but nobody complains about that besides it s in leo so it would only when i was at the texas star party a few years ago the sky was so dark that venus did indeed cause light pollution until it set even if the billboard were dark it could cause a problem imagine observing an object and halfway through your run your object was occulted i would guess that most of the people stating positive opinions are not fanatically serious observers it is so typical that the rights of the minority are extinguished by the wants of the majority no matter how ridiculous those wants might be george krumins george krumins gfk uxa cso uiuc edu
sci.space	sirtf mission is still alive from the jpl universe april sirtf is still very much in business by mark whalen in these times of extra tight nasa budgets the very survival of a number of missions has been uncertain but thanks to major design refinements implemented in recent months jpl s space infrared telescope facility sirtf a major project considered to be in trouble a couple of years ago is alive and well according to project scientist michael werner a lighter spacecraft revised orbit and shorter mission have added up to a less expensive project with tremendous scientific power and a bright future said werner designed as a follow up to the highly successful infrared astronomical satellite iras and cosmic background explorer cobe missions sirtf a cryogenically cooled observatory for infrared astronomy from space is scheduled for launch in or if plans proceed as scheduled iras pioneering work in space based infrared astronomy years ago allowed astronomers to view the milky way as never before and revealed among other things galaxies and comets it provided a sky survey times more sensitive than any previously available from ground based observations cobe has measured the infrared and microwave background radiation on large angular scales and revealed new facts about the early universe but to illuminate sirtf s potential jim evans jpl s manager of astrophysics and fundamental physics pre projects recently said that the project is to million times more capable than iras based on technological advances in infrared detector arrays however despite the enormous strides in infrared exploration sirtf promised and the fact that it was cited as the highest priority new initiative for all of astronomy in the s by the national academy of sciences it took a diet or die directive from nasa headquarters last year to keep the project going according to werner the project is now known as atlas sirtf based on the key factor in its new design the satellite will orbit the sun instead of the earth permitting the use of an atlas rocket launch instead of the formerly proposed and heavier titan the main advantage of the solar orbit is that you can use all of your launch capability for boosting the payload you don t have to carry up a second rocket to circularize the orbit werner said the other advantage to a solar orbit he said is that it s in a better thermal environment away from the heat of the earth additional major changes in sirtf s redesign include shortening the mission from five to three years and building a spacecraft that is less than half as heavy as in the original plan atlas sirtf will weigh kilograms pounds compared to titan sirtf s kilograms pounds all of that adds up to a less stressful launch environment werner said and a cost savings of more than million for the launch in addition to increased savings in the design of the smaller less massive spacecraft werner said sirtf s redesign came as a result of congress telling nasa you re trying to do too many things if you want us to support sirtf which is a good project develop a plan to see how it fits into nasa s overall strategy shortly thereafter sirtf was named as nasa s highest priority flagship scientific mission by the interdisciplinary space sciences advisory committee in addition to the blessing from the national academy of sciences while the spacecraft and its instruments required descoping to keep the project alive sirtf s major scientific contribution always promised to come about from its advanced infrared detector arrays which will allow images to be developed tens of thousands of times faster than before according to evans up until a couple of years ago werner said all infrared astronomy was done with single detectors or very small arrays of individually assembled detectors since then the department of defense has developed a program to produce arrays of tens or hundreds of thousands of detectors rather than just a few and those are very well suited for use on sirtf werner noted that in addition to dealing with budget pressures congress is currently watching nasa projects with an eye out for any technological spinoff on that question i think we have some things to say he said because the detectors we re using are straight off various military developments also sirtf will be built by the u s aerospace industry and it s a real technological and engineering challenge in addition to being a tremendous scientific project sirtf will be used by the entire astronomical community werner added but the revised three year mission puts a premium on observing time we have to educate the user community and develop a program that involves early surveys and quick turnaround of the data werner said the downsizing of the project required a reduction in scope and complexity of sirtf s three instruments the infrared spectrograph infrared array camera and multiband imaging photometer however these reductions will only result in losses of efficiency rather than capability he said the project hopes to start a phase b activity in which will provide a detailed concept for development and design building the hardware would begin about two years later projected cost estimates evans said are million million i am very optimistic about sirtf he said it will provide a tremendous return for the investment werner added that an additional benefit from the project will be the enrichment of our intellectual and cultural environment people on the street are very interested in astronomy black holes the possibility of life on other planets the origin of the universe and those are the kind of questions sirtf will help answer ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab m s telos the aweto from new zealand pasadena ca is part caterpillar and part vegetable
sci.space	stephen hawking tours jpl from the jpl universe april cosmologist stephen hawking tours lab by karre marino some years after his first visit to jpl prof stephen hawking lucasian professor of mathematics at cambridge university and author of a brief history of time returned to the lab april on a tour hosted by jpl chief scientist dr moustafa chahine and merle mckenzie manager of the international affairs office hawking visited a variety of facilities met with lab director dr edward stone and various project scientists and managers and felt like royalty he said hawking whose theories attempt to explain the origin of distant galaxies black holes and alternate dimensions wanted to re visit jpl he explained because while i m most interested in those things in space that are farther away i know that here is where the first steps are taken hawking who was accompanied by his family two graduate students and his aides began the tour in von karman auditorium as david evans deputy assistant lab director in the office of flight projects and dr arden albee mars observer s project scientist briefed him on current and past flight projects voyager was pointed out to him with special attention paid to a gold plate with a series of engraved images should extraterrestrial life stumble upon the spacecraft evans noted they would find a variety of images that would explain something of earth the professor asked if we were still communicating with the spacecraft and evans affirmed that we are using a model of mars observer albee spent several minutes describing the project and the spacecraft s features in answer to a question from hawking chahine described a proposed drag free satellite but confirmed that at this point it s only a concept chahine who had met hawking at caltech about five years before described the professor as a living miracle of the power of the brain he s miraculous and he has such a good sense of humor the next stop a demonstration on scientific data visualization in section s digital image animation lab entertained and delighted the group as everyone donned goggles to view d images of mars project scientist dr eric de jong showed off the latest data a comet that had only recently been discovered in orbit close to jupiter hawking was curious about its composition and as he was shown how images are developed he asked several questions on their interpretation norman haynes ald office of telecommunications and data acquisition briefed the professor on the space flight operations facility and then hawking spoke with stone the day ended with two technical discussions of particular interest to the professor technical group leader dr frank estabrook and senior research scientist hugo wahlquist described a three spacecraft gravity wave experiment currently under way then planetary astronomer dr richard terrile explained the philosophy and plans for extra solar system planetary detection the hawking party which had been visiting southern california for five weeks was headquartered at caltech and planned to leave for england within a few weeks after the lab tour upon departing the cambridge based scientist promised chahine that he would return to jpl for another visit ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab m s telos the aweto from new zealand pasadena ca is part caterpillar and part vegetable
sci.space	re sunrise sunset times in apr cbis ece drexel edu jpw cbis ece drexel edu joseph wetstein writes hello i am looking for a program or algorithm that can be used to compute sunrise and sunset times i would appreciate any advice i once thought it would be easiest fitting a sine to the times but not this gave discrepancy of upto six minutes if you fit a sine series you ll get a very good fit after just three or four terms though this presumably has to do with the eccentricity of the earths orbit simon tardell ff simon nada kth se v ga v gra cgs
sci.space	jpl s vlbi project meets with international space agencies from the jpl universe april vlbi project meets with international space agencies by ed mcnevin members of jpl s space very long baseline interferometry vlbi project team recently concluded a week long series of meetings with officials from russia and japan the meetings were part of space vlbi week held at jpl in early march and were intended to maintain cooperation between international space agencies participating in the development of the u s space vlbi project a recently approved jpl flight project set for launch in u s space vlbi will utilize two earth orbiting spacecraft the japanese vsop vlbi space observing program satellite with its meter radio telescope and a russian radioastron meter satellite both spacecraft will team up with ground based radio telescopes located around the world to create a radio telescope network that astronomers hope will expand radio telescope observing power by a factor of japan s vsop satellite will use a limited six hour orbit to conduct imaging science while the russian radioastron spacecraft will exploit a larger hour earth orbit to conduct exploratory radio astronomy each satellite will point at a source target for roughly hours while approximately ground based radio telescopes will simultaneously point at the same source object while within view on earth according to dr joel smith jpl s project manager for the u s space vlbi meetings like those held at jpl will permit japan and russia who have little previous experience in radio interferometry to establish working relationships with the radio astronomy communities that will be vital during the complex observations required by the space vlbi project one of our main activities is developing the methodology for international coordination because the two spacecraft simultaneously rely on the corresponding tracking stations while using the ground based radio telescopes to observe the same celestial objects said smith three new tracking antennas are being built at dsn facilities and other three other tracking facilities located in japan russia and green bank w va this global network of ground based radio telescopes will use precision clocks and high speed recorders to collect observation data and forward the information to a correlator located at the national radio astronomy observatory in socorro n m the correlator will combine and process data then make it available to mission investigators in moscow tokyo and jpl via electronic mail smith is optimistic that the massive radio telescope created by the space vlbi network will provide radio astronomers with better resolution than has ever been achieved before by ground based radio telescopes allowing astronomers to take a closer look at distant objects in space there is a long history of radio astronomy using ground based telescopes said smith what we intend to do is to extend radio astronomy into earth orbit our goal is to look deeper into the cores of galactic nuclei quasars and other active radio sources to understand what drives those things we have seen so far with radio astronomy smith noted that if one examines the active galactic nuclei you ll find jets appearing to spew at speeds greater than light and at energy levels that are millions of times greater than you would expect he said some astronomers believe that black holes may be located in the cores of these galaxies and that they may fuel the jets smith hopes that by using space vlbi to look further into the cores this theory may be supported or disproved russian space flight hardware including transponders and transmitters are now being tested in the united states and japanese hardware is scheduled to arrive for testing later this year analysis of this hardware will permit u s scientists and engineers to understand how to modify the high speed vlba correlator operating at the nrao in order to accommodate the odd data patterns that will originate from the more than ground based radio telescopes involved in space vlbi smith is particularly pleased that meetings with the japanese and russian space agency officials like those held at jpl in march have proceeded smoothly yet he knows that the political uncertainty in russia could jeopardize that country s participation in the project nothing is ever smooth he said but the russians have been incredibly open with us we always anticipated some likelihood that we will not succeed because of political factors beyond our control yet there tends to be a way of keeping these things going because scientists on both sides are trying hard and people recognize the value of cooperation at this level smith points out that the japanese space agency has more at stake than just fulfilling an international commitment to a science mission the japanese have been extremely cooperative since international cooperation is essential to their science mission he said but smith also noted that japanese space agency officials look at the u s space vlbi mission as an opportunity to showcase the technology involved with vsop spacecraft and their highly regarded mach v launch vehicle yet regardless of the risks involved in undertaking such an ambitious project jpl s smith is satisfied that planning for the space vlbi project is beyond the significant financial and political hurdles that otherwise might threaten the project fortunately we have the virtue of having two partners and if either falls out we would still have something with the other by themselves both spacecraft are independent scientifically exciting missions ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab m s telos the aweto from new zealand pasadena ca is part caterpillar and part vegetable
sci.space	re keeping spacecraft on after funding cuts on fri apr bst nicho vnet ibm com greg stewart nicholls said gs how about transferring control to a non profit organisation that is gs able to accept donations to keep craft operational i seem to remember nasa considering this for some of the apollo equipment left on the moon but that they decided against it or maybe not ed mccreary o edm twisto compaq com if it were not for laughter there would be no tao
sci.space	re sunrise sunset times there is a nice little tool in lucid emacs it s called calendar on request it shows for given longitude latitude coordinates times for sunset and sunrise the code is written in lisp i don t know if you like the idea that an editor is the right program to calculate these things theo w theo wawers lahmeyer international gmbh email wawers sunny lif de lyonerstr phone d frankfurt main fax germany
sci.space	weekly reminder for frequently asked questions list this notice will be posted weekly in sci space sci astro and sci space shuttle the frequently asked questions faq list for sci space and sci astro is posted approximately monthly it also covers many questions that come up on sci space shuttle for shuttle launch dates see below the faq is posted with a long expiration date so a copy may be in your news spool directory look at old articles in sci space if not here are two ways to get a copy without waiting for the next posting if your machine is on the internet it can be obtained by anonymous ftp from the space archive at ames arc nasa gov in directory pub space faq otherwise send email to archive server ames arc nasa gov containing the single line help the archive server will return directions on how to use it to get an index of files in the faq directory send email containing the lines send space faq index send space faq faq use these files as a guide to which other files to retrieve to answer your questions shuttle launch dates are posted by ken hollis periodically in sci space shuttle a copy of his manifest is now available in the ames archive in pub space faq manifest and may be requested from the email archive server with send space faq manifest please get this document instead of posting requests for information on launches and landings do not post followups to this article respond to the author
sci.space	re sunrise sunset times in article apr cbis ece drexel edu jpw cbis ece drexel edu joseph wetstein writes hello i am looking for a program or algorithm that can be used to compute sunrise and sunset times joe wetstein there is a wonderful book by jean meeus called astronomical algorithms which i am fairly sure contains an algorithm for sunrise and sunset times dan asimov mail stop t nasa ames research center moffett field ca asimov nas nasa gov
sci.space	re level in article almaden ibm com wingert vnet ibm com bret wingert writes the onboard flight software project was rated level by a nasa team this group generates kslocs of verified code per year for nasa will someone tell an ignorant physicist where the term level comes from it sounds like the risks digest equivalent of large extra large jumbo or maybe it s like defcon i gather it means that shuttle software was developed with extreme care to have reliablility and safety and almost everything else in the computing world is level or cheesy dime store software not surprising but who is it that invents this standard and how come everyone but me seems to be familiar with it of course what shakespeare bill higgins beam jockey originally wrote was first thing fermi national accelerator laboratory we do let s kill all the editors bitnet higgins fnal bitnet but for some reason it didn t internet higgins fnal fnal gov survive past the first draft span hepnet higgins david d laserdave levine davidl ssd intel com
sci.space	space station redesign jsc alternative i have mb worth uuencode d gif images contain charts outlining one of the many alternative space station designs being considered in crystal city mr mark holderman works down the hall from me and can be reached for comment at or via e mail at mholderm jscprofs nasa gov mark proposed this design which he calls geode rough on the outside but a gem on the inside or the et strongback with integrated hab modules and centrifuge as you can see from file geodea gif it uses a space shuttle external tank et in place of much of the truss which is currently part of space station freedom the white track on the outside of the et is used by the station remonte manipulator system srms and by the reaction control system rcs pod this allows the rcs pod to move along the track so that thrusting can occur near the center of gravity cg of the station as the mass properties of the station change during assembly the inline module design allows the shuttle to dock more easily because it can approach closer to the station s cg and at a structurally strong part of the station in the current ssf design docking forces are limited to pounds which seriously constrains the design of the docking system the et would have a hatch installed pre flight with little additional launch mass we ve always had the ability to put an et into orbit contrary to some rumors which have circulated here but we ve never had a reason to do it while we have had some good reasons not to performance penalties control debris generation and eventual de orbit and impact footprint once on orbit we would vent the residual h the et insulation sofi either a erodes on orbit from impact with atomic oxygen or b stays where it is and we deploy a kevlar sheath around it to protect it and keep it from contaminating the local space environment option b has the advantage of providing further micrometeor protection the et is incredibly strong remember it supports the whole stack during launch and could serve as the nucleus for a much more ambitious design as budget permits the white module at the end of et contains a set of control moment gyros to be used for attitude control while the rcs will be used for gyro desaturation the module also contains a de orbit system which can be used at the end of the station s life to perform a controlled de orbit so we don t kill any more kangaroos like we did with skylab the centrifuge which has the same volume as a hab module could be used for long term studies of the effects of lunar or martian gravity on humans the centrifuge will be used as a momentum storage device for the whole attitude control system the centrifuge is mounted on one of the modules opposite the et and the solar panels this design uses most of the existing ssf designs for electrical data and communication systems getting leverage from the ssf work done to date mark proposed this design at joe shea s committee in crystal city and he reports that he was warmly received however the rumors i hear say that a design based on a wingless space shuttle orbiter seems more likely please note that this text is my interpretation of mark s design you should see his notes in the gif files instead of posting a mb file to sci space i tried to post these for anon ftp in ames arc nasa gov but it was out of storage space i ll let you all know when i get that done ken jenks nasa jsc gm space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov development of the space station is as inevitable as the rising of the sun wernher von braun
sci.space	re new planet kuiper object found in a recent article jdnicoll prism ccs uwo ca james davis nicoll writes if the new kuiper belt object is called karla the next one should be called smiley unless i m imaging things always a possibility qb the kuiper belt object discovered last year is known as smiley jeff foust days you re from outer space senior planetary science caltech no i m from iowa i only work in jafoust cco caltech edu outer space jeff scn jpl nasa gov from star trek iv the voyage home
sci.space	re russian email contacts i am coordinating the space shuttle program office s e mail traffic to npo energia for our on going joint missions i have several e mail addresses for npo energia folks but i won t post them on the net for obvious reasons if you need to know give me a yell ken jenks nasa jsc gm space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov the earth is the cradle of humanity but mankind will not stay in the cradle forever konstantin tsiolkvosky
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky in article c xr w dnw cs cmu edu flb flb optiplan fi f baube tm writes from phil g fraering pgf srl cacs usl edu finally this isn t the bronze age please try to remember that there are more human activities than those practiced by the warrior caste the farming caste and the priesthood right the profiting caste is blessed by god and may freely blare its presence in the evening twilight the priesthood has never quite forgiven the merchants aka profiting caste sic for their rise to power has it steinn sigurdsson lick observatory steinly lick ucsc edu standard disclaimer ya know you penguin types offend me my gosh life is offensive offensensitivity bb
sci.space	re new planet kuiper object found in article r de innjkv gap caltech edu jafoust cco caltech edu jeff foust writes in a recent article jdnicoll prism ccs uwo ca james davis nicoll writes if the new kuiper belt object is called karla the next one should be called smiley unless i m imaging things always a possibility qb the kuiper belt object discovered last year is known as smiley as it happens the second one is karla the first one was smiley all subject to the vagaries of the iau of course but i think they might let this one slide steinn sigurdsson lick observatory steinly lick ucsc edu standard disclaimer the worst thing you can say to a true revolutionary is that his revolution is unnecessary that the problems can be corrected without radical change telling people that paradise can be attained without revolution is treason of the vilest kind h s just had to try out my new sig on this forum
sci.space	re space news from feb aw st jbreed doink b b ingr com james b reed writes in article c ros uy zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes pluto s atmosphere will start to freeze out around and after about increasing areas of both pluto and charon will be in permanent shadow that will make imaging and geochemical mapping impossible it s my understanding that the freezing will start to occur because of the growing distance of pluto and charon from the sun due to it s elliptical orbit it is not due to shadowing effects where does the shadow come from there s nothing close enough to block sunlight from hitting them i wouldn t expect there to be anything block our view of them either what am i missing pluto can shadow charon and vice versa george krumins george krumins gfk uxa cso uiuc edu pufferfish observatory
sci.space	what counntries do space surveillance ethnocentric usian that i am i ve assumed that we and the xussr were the only countries with significant capabilities to track non cooperative objects in low earth orbit grazing in a couple of databases recently i found that japan has some optical capabilities along this line and also uses a radar designed for other purposes for orbital debris surveys it isn t clear whether the radar can determine orbital elements for the objects it detects abstracts of the articles are appended this leads to the more general question do yet other people than the us russia and japan do space surveillance and if so how and why allen thomson saic mclean va usa abstracts optical tracking of the experimental geodetic satellite egs takabe masao itabe toshikazu aruga tadashi radio research laboratory review issn x vol march p in japanese with abstract in english this paper reports the optical tracking results of egs experimental geodetic satellite which was launched on august by nasda the egs optical tracking experiment process and an outline of the radio research laboratory rrl optical ground station are discussed a star tracking technique for optical equipment calibration and satellite tracking technique for orbit prediction improvement are also described the accuracy of egs tracking data obtained by rrl at the request of nasda is also discussed in addition it is briefly demonstrated that the position of the japanese amateur satellite jas which was launched with the egs was accurately determined by means of a satellite tracking video it is clear from this experiment that optical observation data i e satellite direction data are very useful for satellite orbit determination during initial launch stages furthermore the results confirm the effectivenes of these two satellite optical tracking techniques mu radar measurements of orbital debris sato toru kayama hidetoshi furusawa akira kimura iwane kyoto university japan aiaa nasa and dod orbital debris conference technical issues and future directions baltimore md apr p rpn aiaa paper distributions of orbital debris versus height and scattering cross section are determined from a series of observations made with a high power vhf doppler radar mu radar of japan an automated data processing algorithm has been developed to discriminate echoes of orbiting objects from those of undesired signals such as meteor trail echoes or lightning atmospherics although the results are preliminary they showed good agreement with those from norad tracking radar observations using a much higher frequency it is found that the collision frequency of a space station of km x km size at an altitude of km with orbiting debris is expected to be as high as once per two years monitoring of the mu radar antenna pattern by satellite ohzora exos c sato t inooka y fukao s kyoto univ japan kato s kyoto univ uji japan radio atmospheric science center in international council of scientific unions middle atmosphere program handbook for map vol p publication date jun as the first attempt among mst mesosphere stratosphere troposphere type radars the mu middle and upper atmosphere radar features an active phased array system unlike the conventional large vhf radars in which output power of a large vacuum tube is distributed to individual antenna elements each of solid state power amplifier feeds each antenna element this system configuration enables very fast beam steering as well as various flexible operations by dividing the antenna into independent subarrays because phase shift and signal division combination are performed at a low signal level using electronic devices under control of a computer network the antenna beam can be switched within microsec to any direction within the zenith angle of deg since a precise phase alignment of each element is crucial to realize the excellent performance of this system careful calibration of the output phase of each power amplifier and antenna element was carried out among various aircraft which may be used for this purpose artificial satellites have an advantage of being able to make a long term monitoring with the same system an antenna pattern monitoring system for the mu radar was developed using the scientific satellite ohzora exos c a receiver named mum mu radar antenna monitor on board the satellite measures a cw signal of to watts transmitted from the mu radar the principle of the measurement and results are discussed equatorial radar system fukao shoichiro tsuda toshitaka sato toru kato susumu kyoto university uji japan cospar iaga scostep et al plenary meeting th workshops and symposium on the earth s middle atmosphere espoo finland july advances in space research issn vol no p a large clear air radar with the sensitivity of an incoherent scatter radar for observing the whole equatorial atmosphere up to km altitude is now being designed in japan the radar will be built in pontianak west kalimantan indonesia deg n deg e the system is a mhz monostatic doppler radar with an active phased array configuration similar to that of the mu radar in japan which has been in successful operation since it will have a pa product of about x to the th w sq m p average transmitter power a effective antenna aperture with a sensitivity of approximately times that of the mu radar this system configuration enables pulse to pulse beam steering within deg from the zenith as is the case of the mu radar a variety of operations will be made feasible under the supervision of the radar controller a brief description of the system configuration is presented
sci.space	mars observer update forwarded from the mars observer project mars observer status report april am pdt flight sequence c is active the spacecraft subsystems and instrument payload performing well in array normal spin and outer cruise configuration with uplink and downlink via the high gain antenna uplink at bps downlink at the k engineering data rate as a result of the spacecraft entering contingency mode on april all payload instruments were automatically powered off by on board fault protection software gamma ray spectrometer random access memory was successfully reloaded on monday april to prepare for magnetometer calibrations which were rescheduled for execution in flight sequence c on tuesday and wednesday of next week a reload of payload data system random access memory will take place this morning beginning at am over this weekend the flight team will send real time commands to perform differential one way ranging to obtain additional data for analysis by the navigation team radio science ultra stable oscillator testing will take place on monday the flight sequence c uplink will occur on sunday april with activation at midnight monday evening april c has been modified to include magnetometer calibrations which could not be performed in c due to contingency mode entry on april these magnetometer instrument calibrations will allow the instrument team to better characterize the spacecraft generated magnetic field and its effect on their instrument this information is critical to martian magnetic field measurements which occur during approach and mapping phases mag cals will require the sequence to command the spacecraft out of array normal spin state and perform slew and roll maneuvers to provide the mag team data points in varying spacecraft attitudes and orientations today the spacecraft is km mi from mars travelling at a velocity of kilometers second mph with respect to mars one way light time is approximately minutes seconds ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab m s telos the aweto from new zealand pasadena ca is part caterpillar and part vegetable
sci.space	magellan update forwarded from doug griffith magellan project manager magellan status report april the magellan spacecraft continues to operate normally gathering gravity data to plot the density variations of venus in the mid latitudes the solar panel offpoint was returned to zero degrees and spacecraft temperatures dropped degrees c an end to end test of the delayed aerobraking data readout process was conducted this week in preparation for the transition experiment there was some difficulty locking up to the data frames and engineers are presently checking whether the problem was in equipment at the tracking station magellan has completed orbits of venus and is now days from the end of cycle and the start of the transition experiment magellan scientists were participating in the brown vernadsky microsymposium at brown university in providence ri this week this joint meeting of u s and russian venus researchers has been continuing for many years a three day simulation of transition experiment aerobraking activities is planned for next week including orbit trim maneuvers and starcal star calibration orbits ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab m s telos the aweto from new zealand pasadena ca is part caterpillar and part vegetable
sci.space	re new planet kuiper object found in article steinly apr topaz ucsc edu steinly topaz ucsc edu steinn sigurdsson writes in article r de innjkv gap caltech edu jafoust cco caltech edu jeff foust writes in a recent article jdnicoll prism ccs uwo ca james davis nicoll writes if the new kuiper belt object is called karla the next one should be called smiley unless i m imaging things always a possibility qb the kuiper belt object discovered last year is known as smiley as it happens the second one is karla the first one was smiley all subject to the vagaries of the iau of course but i think they might let this one slide gee i feel so ignorant now research then post james nicoll
sci.space	re space station redesign chief resigns for health reasons in article c xugl jow skates gsfc nasa gov xrcjd mudpuppy gsfc nasa gov charles j divine writes writer kathy sawyer reported in today s washington post that joseph shea the head of the space station redesign has resigned for health reasons shea was hospitalized shortly after his selection in february he returned yesterday to lead the formal presentation to the independent white house panel shea s presentation was rambling and almost inaudible i missed the presentations given in the morning session when shea gave his rambling and almost inaudible presentation but i did attend the afternoon session the meeting was in a small conference room the speaker was wired with a mike and there were microphones on the table for the panel members to use peons like me sat in a foyer outside the conference room and watched the presentations on closed circuit tv in general the sound system was fair to poor and some of the other speakers like the committee member from the italian space agency also were almost inaudible shea didn t lead the formal presentation in the sense of running or guiding the presentation he didn t even attend the afternoon session vest ran the show president of mit the chair of the advisory panel shea s deputy former astronaut bryan o connor will take over the effort note that o connor has been running the day to day operations of the of the redesign team since shea got sick which was immediately after the panel was formed
sci.space	re surviving large accelerations amruth laxman al andrew cmu edu writes hi i was reading through the spaceflight handbook and somewhere in there the author discusses solar sails and the forces acting on them when and if they try to gain an initial acceleration by passing close to the sun in a hyperbolic orbit the magnitude of such accelerations he estimated to be on the order of g he also says that this is may not be a big problem for manned craft because humans and this was published in have already withstood accelerations of g all this is very long winded but here s my question finally are g accelerations in fact humanly tolerable with the aid of any mechanical devices of course if these are possible what is used to absorb the acceleration can this be extended to larger accelerations are you sure g is the right number as far as i know pilots are blackout in dives that exceed g g g seems to be out of human tolerance would anybody clarify this please lan thanks is advance amruth laxman
sci.space	re eco freaks forcing space mining in article r hb kbi access digex net prb access digex com pat writes in article apr aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes in article r b v ec access digex net prb access digex com pat writes besides this was the same line of horse puckey the mining companies claimed when they were told to pay for restoring land after strip mining i aint talking the large or even the mining companies i am talking the small miners the people who have themselves and a few employees if at all the people who go out every year and set up thier sluice box and such and do mining the semi old fashion way okay they use modern methods toa point lot s of these small miners are no longer miners they are people living rent free on federal land under the claim of being a miner the facts are many of these people do not sustaint heir income from mining do not often even live their full time and do fotentimes do a fair bit of environmental damage these minign statutes were created inthe s s when the west was uninhabited and were designed to bring people into the frontier times change people change deal you don t have a constitutional right to live off the same industry forever anyone who claims the have a right to their job in particular is spouting nonsense this has been a long term federal welfare program that has outlived it s usefulness pat hum do you enjoy putting words in my mouth come to nome and meet some of these miners i am not sure how things go down south in the lower i used to visit but of course to believe the media news its going to heck or just plain crazy well it seems that alot of unionist types seem to think that having a job is a right and not a priviledge right to the same job as your forbearers see kennedy s and tel me what you see and the families they have married into there is a reason why many historians and poli sci types use unionist and socialist in the same breath the miners that i know are just your average hardworking people who pay there taxes and earn a living but taxes are not the answer but maybe we could move this discussion to some more appropriate newsgroup michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked
sci.space	re space news from feb aw st in article apr dazixco ingr com jbreed ingr com writes pluto s atmosphere will start to freeze out around and after about increasing areas of both pluto and charon will be in permanent shadow that will make imaging and geochemical mapping impossible where does the shadow come from there s nothing close enough to block sunlight from hitting them i wouldn t expect there to be anything block our view of them either what am i missing you re assuming that their normal rotation carries all areas of the surface into sunlight not so even on earth each pole gets several weeks without sunlight in mid winter pluto and charon have much more extreme axial tilt and a much longer orbit pluto s north pole for example gets over a century of darkness followed by over a century of perpetual light at the moment we re in luck pluto and charon are just past their equinox when the sun was just on the horizon at both poles of each if we get probes there soon only the immediate vicinity of one pole on each will be in long term shadow this will get steadily worse the longer we wait all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	space design movies is there a few grasp pictures of space related items namely space station designs so you can see the finished revolt around if you don t know what a grasp prograsm is check out some adult entertainment files and see what i mean or maybe geta few gif files and create a slide shows i think cshow can do this i liek to be able to see a space shuttle design in a autocad program or to see it revolt around and look at it michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky in article c t k db research canon oz au enzo research canon oz au enzo liguori writes most of message deleted what about light pollution in observations i read somewhere else that it might even be visible during the day leave alone at night really really depressed enzo no need to be depressed about this one lights aren t on during the day so there shouldn t be any daytime light pollution
sci.space	re space station redesign jsc alternative in article apr aio jsc nasa gov kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov writes description of external tank option for ssf redesign deleted mark proposed this design at joe shea s committee in crystal city and he reports that he was warmly received however the rumors i hear say that a design based on a wingless space shuttle orbiter seems more likely yo ken let s keep on top of things both the external tank and wingless orbiter options have been deleted from the ssf redesign options list today s edition of the new york times reports that o connor told the panel that some redesign proposals have been dropped such as using the giant external fuel tanks used in launching space shuttles and building a station around an existing space shuttle with its wings and tail removed currently there are three options being considered as presented to the advisory panel meeting yesterday and as reported in today s times option a low cost modular approach this option is being studied by a team from msfc as an aside there are ssf redesign teams at msfc jsc and larc supporting the srt station redesign team in crystal city both lerc and reston folks are also on site at these locations helping the respective teams with their redesign activities key features of this option are uses bus a modular bus developed by lockheed that s qualified for sts and elv s the bus provides propulsion gn c communications data management lockheed developed this for the air force a power station capability is obtained in shuttle flights ssf solar arrays are used to provide kw of power the vehicle flies in an arrow mode to optimize the microgravity environment shuttle spacelab missions would utilize the vehilce as a power source for day missions human tended capability as opposed to the old ssf sexist term of man tended capability is achieved by the addition of the us common module this is a modified version of the existing ssf lab module docking ports are added for the international partners labs taking the place of the nodes on ssf the shuttle can be docked to the station for day missions the orbiter would provide crew habitability eva capability international human tended add the nasda esa modules and add another kw of power permanent human presence capability add a rd power module the u s habitation module and an acrv assured crew return vehicle option b space station freedom derived the option b team is based at larc and is lead by mike griffin this option looks alot like the existing ssf design which we have all come to know and love this option assumes a lightweight external tank is available for use on all ssf assembly flights so does option a also the number of flights is computed for a inclination orbit for both options a and b the build up occurs in six phases initial research capability reached after flights power is transferred from the vehicle to the orbiter spacelab when it visits man tended capability griffin has not yet adopted non sexist language is achieved after flights the u s lab is deployed and solar power module provides kw of power permanent human presence capability occurs after flights by keeping one orbiter on orbit to use as an acrv so sometimes there would be two orbiters on orbit the acrv and the second one that comes up for logistics re supply a two fault tolerance capability is achieved after flights with the addition of a nd power module another thermal control system radiator and more propulsion modules after flights the internationals are on board more power the habitation module and an acrv are added to finish the assembly in flights most of the systems currently on ssf are used as is in this option with the exception of the data management system which has major changes option c single core launch station this is the jsc lead option basically you take a ft diameter cylinder that s ft long slap space shuttle main engines on the backside put a nose cone on the top attached it to a regular shuttle external tank and a regular set of solid rocket motors and launch the can some key features are complete end to end ground integration and checkout tangentially mounted fixed solar panels body mounted radiators which adds protection against micrometeroid orbital debris centerline docking ports one on each end berthing ports a single pressurized volume approximately cubic feet twice the volume of skylab floors center passageway between floors kw of housekeeping power graceful degradation with failures power channels thermal loops dual environmental control life support system increased crew time for utilization micro g thru out the core module
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky newsgroups sci astro sci space subject re vandalizing the sky excerpts from posting on this topic in article c t k db research canon oz au enzo research canon oz au enzo liguori writes now space marketing is working with university of colorado and livermore engineers on a plan to place a mile long inflatable billboard in low earth orbit the real purpose of the project is to help the environment the platform will carry ozone monitors i can t believe that a mile long billboard would have any significant effect on the overall sky brightness venus is visible during the day but nobody complains about that besides it s in leo so it would only be visible during twilight when the sky is already bright and even if it would have some miniscule impact it would be only for a short time as it goes zipping across the sky i ve seen satellites at midnight they re not only in twilight o from the book prodigal genius the life of nikola tesla by john j o neill this remarkable conductivity of gases including the air at low pressures led tesla to suggest in a published statement in a system of lighting on a terrestrial scale in which he proposed to treat the whole earth with its surrounding atmosphere as if it were a single lamp the whole earth would be transformed into a giant lamp with the night sky completely illuminated making the night as bright as day now my comments i d like to add that some of the protests do not come from a strictly practical consideration of what pollution levels are acceptable for research activities by professional astronomers some of what i would complain about is rooted in aesthetics many readers may never have known a time where the heavens were pristine sacred unsullied by the actions of humans the space between the stars as profoundly black as an abyss can be with full horizons and a pure sky one could look out upon half of all creation at a time none of which had any connection with the petty matters of man any lights were supplied solely by nature uncorruptable by men whole religions were based on mortal man somehow getting up there and becoming immortal as the stars whether by apotheosis or a belief in an afterlife the space age changed all that the effect of the first sputniks and echo etc on this view could only happen once to see a light crossing the night sky and know it was put there by us puny people is still impressive and the sense of size one gets by assimilating the scales involved is also awesome even if the few hundreds or thousands of miles involved is still dwarfed by the rest of the universe but there is still a hunger for the pure beauty of a virgin sky yes i know aircraft are almost always in sight i have to live in a very populated area miles from an international airport currently where light pollution on the ground is ghastly the impact of humans is so extreme here virtually no place exists that has not been shaped sculpted modified trashed or whipped into shape by the hands of man in some places the only life forms larger than bacteria are humans cockroaches and squirrels or rats i visited some friends up in the appalacian mountains one weekend getting away from it all paved roads indoor plumbing malls and it felt good for a while then i quickly noticed the hollow was directly under the main flight path into dulles miles to the east their security light didn t help matters much either but i ve heard the artic wilderness gets lots of high air traffic so i know the skies are rarely perfect but there is still this desire to see a place that man hasn t fouled in some way i mean they ve been trying this forever like concerning tesla s idea to banish night wow i don t watch commercial television but i can imagine just how disgusting beer truck or hemmorrhoid ointment advertisements would be if seen up so high if ya gotta make a buck on it displaying products in heaven at least consider the reactions from those for whom the sky is a last beautiful refuge from the baseness of modern life to be open about this though i have here my listing of the passage of hst in the evening sky for this weekend tonight friday at p m edt it will reach an altitude of degrees on the local meridian from baltimore vicinity i ll be trying to see it if i can it is my mealticket after all so i suppose i could be called an elitist for supporting this intrusion on the night sky while complaining about billboards proposed by others be that as it may i think my point about a desire for beauty is valid even if it can t ever be perfectly achieved regards wm hathaway baltimore md
sci.space	re why not give billion to first year lo keithley apple com craig keithley writes all in all i m not certain that the single goal prize of staying on the moon for a year is wise and or useful how about a prize for the first non government sponsered unmanned moon landing then another for a manned moon landing then yet another for a system to extract consumables from lunar soil another for a reusable earth moon shuttle and so forth find some way to build civilian moonbase infrastructure having a single goal might result in a bunch of contestents giving up after one person appeared to win and for those that didn t give up i find something a little scary about a half dozen people huddling in rickety little moon shelters i d like to see as much a reward for co operation as for competition lastly about ten or fifteen years back i seem to recall that there was an english space magazine that had an on going discussion about moonbases on the cheap i recalled it discussed things like how much heat the human body produced how much lunar material it d need for protection from solar flares etc unfortunately i don t remember the name of this magazine does this ring a bell to anyone craig keithley i don t remember i don t recall apple computer inc i got no memory of anything at all keithley apple com peter gabriel third album i love the idea of progressive developmental prizes but the assumption has been all along that only the u s gummint could fund the prizes it wouldn t and couldn t do such a thing but an eccentric billionaire could offer such a prize or series of prizes anyone know h ross perot or bill gates personally john g
sci.space	re planets still images orbit by ether twist news saved at apr gmt in article apr zeus calpoly edu dmcaloon tuba calpoly edu david mcaloon writes ether implodes earth core is gravity this paper both describes how heavenly bodys can be stationary ether sucking structures and why we observe orbital motion light years between galaxies is a misnomer the distance is closer to zero as time and matter are characteristics of this phase of reality which dissipates outward with each layer of the onion defining edge ether spin to find out about all of this i recommend studying history well i m working on it but getting a little impatient so far i ve made it through egyptian chinese and greek cultures and up through the rennaisance but so far these insights just don t seem to be gelling perhaps it s in an appendix somewhere in its own right though the history is kind of fun lots of good yarns in there with varied and interesting characters and more to come
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky jeff cook ftcollinsco ncr com jeff cook writes people in primitive tribes out in the middle of nowhere as they look up and see a can of budweiser flying across the sky d seen that movie already or one just like it come to think of it they might send someone on a quest to get rid of the dang thing jeff cook jeff cook ftcollinsco ncr com phil fraering seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff pgf srl cacs usl edu like how the ancient mayans had televison repo man
sci.space	re dreams and degrees was re crazy or just imaginitive higgins fnalf fnal gov bill higgins beam jockey writes like others involved in sci space mr adams shows symptoms of being a fledgling member of the technoculture and i think he s soaking it up fast i was a young guy with dreams once and they led me to get a technical education to follow them up too bad i wound up in an assembly line job stamping out identical neutrinos day after day how can you tell they re identical you got one of them star drek the next syndication neutrino scanners phil fraering seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff pgf srl cacs usl edu like how the ancient mayans had televison repo man
sci.space	dc x y question i ve been following discussions about the delta clipper program and i have one small question as i understand it the dc x derived orbital vehicle dc y is to reenter the atmosphere sort of sideways not completely nose first so why is the dc y look symmetric in every drawing i ve seen i would think that an asymmetric design sort of like wingless orbiter may work better since less shielding is required on the top side can anybody explain ken kobayashi kkobayas husc harvard edu ken kobayashi kkobayas husc harvard edu there is no final frontier ibm ad
sci.space	dc y trajectory simulation i ve been to three talks in the last month which might be of interest i ve transcribed some of my notes below since my note taking ability is by no means infallible please assume that all factual errors are mine permission is granted to copy this without restriction note for newbies the delta clipper project is geared towards producing a single staget to orbit reusable launch vehicle the dc x vehicle is a scale vehicle designed to test some of the concepts invovled in ssto it is currently undergoing tests the dc y vehicle would be a full scale experimental vehicle capable of reaching orbit it has not yet been funded on april th rocky nelson of macdonnell douglas gave a talk entitled optimizing techniques for advanced space missions here at the university of illinois mr nelson s job involves using software to simulate trajectories and determine the optimal trajectory within given requirements although he is not directly involved with the delta clipper project he has spent time with them recently using his software for their applications he thus used the dc y project for most of his examples while i don t think the details of implicit trajectory simulation are of much interest to the readers i hope they aren t i fell asleep during that part i think that many of you will be interested in some of the details gleaned from the examples the first example given was the maximization of payload for a polar orbit the main restriction is that acceleration must remain below gs i assume that this is driven by passenger constraints rather than hardware constraints but i did not verify that the delta clipper y version has engines boosters and sustainers the boosters which have a lower isp are shut down in mid flight thus one critical question is when to shut them down mr nelson showed the following plot of acceleration vs time g as ascii graphs go this is actually fairly good the big difference is that the lines g made by the should be curves which are concave up the data is only approximate as the graph wasn t up for very long g g sec sec as mentioned before a critical constraint is that g levels must be kept below initially all eight engines are started as the vehicle burns fuel the accelleration increases as it gets close to g the booster engines are throtled back however they quickly become inefficient at low power so it soon makes more sense to cut them off altogether this causes the dip in accelleration at about seconds eventually the remaining sustainer engines bring the g level back up to about and then hold it there until they cut out entirely the engine cutoff does not acutally occur in orbit the trajectory is aimed for an altitude slightly higher than the nm desired and the last vestiges of air drag slow the vehicle slightly thus lowering the final altitude to that desired questions from the audience paraphrased q would it make sense to shut down the booster engines in pairs rather than all at once a very perceptive worth considering they have not yet done the simulation shutting down all four was part of the problem as given q so what was the final payload for this trajectory a can t tell us read aviation leak he also apparently had a good propulsion example but was told not to use it my question does anyone know if this security is due to sdio protecting national security or md protecting their own interests the second example was reentry simulation from orbit to just before the pitch up maneuver the biggest constraint in this one is aerodynamic heating and the parameter they were trying to maximize was crossrange he showed graphs of heating using two different models to show that both were very similar and i think we were supposed to assume that this meant they were very accurate the end result was that for a polar orbit landing at ksc the dc y would have about degrees of crossrange and would start it s reentry profile about degrees south latitude i would have asked about the landing maneuvers but he didn t know about that aspect of the flight profile josh hopkins jbh uxa cso uiuc edu find a way or make one attributed to hannibal
sci.space	rimsat us russian joint venture i ve been to three talks in the last month which might be of interest i ve transcribed some of my notes below since my note taking ability is by no means infallible please assume that all factual errors are mine permission is granted to copy this without restriction michael sternberg cheif of operations of rimsat was invited to speak at an informal lunch held by acdis here on the campus of the university of illinois acdis is an organization on campus that deals with arms control disarmament and international security rimsat was considered an appropriate topic because the company is using russian launchers and satellites i think it also helped that his daughter is a grad student in the international relations program the concept behind rimsat apparently began when matt neilson went to tonga to visit a friend while he was there he somehow ended up visiting the king who happened to be a big tv fan matt bought the king a satellite dish which the king thought was really nifty since tonga has a gnp of about million his majesty asked if there was any way to make money off this matt thought there probably was so at his suggestion tonga applied for geosynchronous satellite slots while this isn t entirely off the wall it was very unusual seeing as tonga was a tiny kingdom with no space program and is a lot of slots the whole thing was debated in the appropriate regulatory agency and carl hilliard who is apparently a respected space lawyer wrote several opinions supporting tonga s case eventually tonga ended up with slots ranging from e to e slots are designated by the longitude over which they reside according to sternberg four of these from e to e are the best in the world because they are excellently placed for communications between hawaii and the pacific rim rimsat was formed to use these slots it was officially formed in nevis as a tax haven they tried for a few years to raise funds in the west however to fill slots with western satellites launched on western launchers would have cost approximately billion it s not easy to raise that kind of money eventually they hit upon the idea of using russian hardware they began negotiating with glavkosmos for hardware mr sternberg describes operating in moscow in such harsh terms that i don t think i ll visit there for a long time besides a significant lack of creature comforts he was not happy with the way that people operate for example everybody can sell you everything everyone can show the proper documents and licenses that indicate they are the only ones who have the authority to sell what ever you want to by eventually rimsat arranged a deal with glavkosmos for satellites at a cost of million however glavkosmos lost favor after the coup sternberg says that this is because they were basically a bunch of kgb operatives who went to trade shows and picked up lots of brochures since glavkosmos was out of power he had to renegotiate the deal with the new authorities he again described life in a moscow hotel in rather unfavorable terms eventually he worked out a deal and on dec he met with koptev who heads the russian space program to sign the deal koptev insisted on a few concessions before signing and according to sternberg he arranged these new rules to allow himself to form another company to do the exact same thing as rimsat the next step was to meet with the builders of the hardware npo applied mechanics npo pm to use their acronym this organization is located in siberia can t figure out how to spell the town i need an atlas and has built about vehicles since the dawn of the space age sternberg commented that siberians are very different from musovites they are hard workers honest people who team up to get things done very much like midwesterners at this point there were some comments from the audience that agreed with his opinion on both siberians and midwesterners sternberg had lots of good things to say about npo pm his company is apparently lookng for million to invest in the firm to become partners it apparently costs the russians about million to build a satellite that would sell for million in the west if you want to give them specifications they ll build you a satellite for the particular satellites that rimsat will be using costs run about per transponder year this compares to t y in the u s they can sell their time for about million compared to million in the u s rimsat will launch their satellites on protons to get the best prices they bought in bulk they have the rights to twelve launches so if any of you need a lift i can give you their address the first launch is scheduled for october and they are getting one used satellite from the russians which is being moved into place now tidbits sternberg says this kind of thing has to be done by entrepreneurs not big business because big business is just like what they have over there except that we have better paper both in the bathroom and in the copier russian launches are self insured the promise to replace a failed launch within months major investors in rimsat include russell which is a huge retirement fund organization cellsat which is a big telecom business in southeast asia and a fund operated by some of the big names in u s aerospace which he says is sort of an insurance policy for them if this really takes off he downplayed the instabilites in the ex ussr saying that we are worried partly because we aren t used to seeing russia as anything but an unvarying monolith italy gets a new government every two weeks but we don t worry because we re used to it he predicted that once we get used to seeing what really goes on in russia we won t worry about their stability as much part of the problem with cooperative ventures is the problem of transfering money the central bank has a policy of taking hard currency payments putting in their coffers and replacing the rest with the equivalent value in rubles to get around this rimsat pays their hard currency into an austrian bank account npo pm then pays their contractors with foreign currency so that the only the contractors get swindled by the government one of the big problems rimsat has had is stonewalling by the western satellite industry however intelsat recently bought three of the same type of satellites which was rather reassuring the biggest worry most people have about russian satellites is the primitive technology and shorter lifetime the older gorizont horizon satellites have a lifetime of about years while the more modern express satellites compare well with western technology and last about years while this is much shorter than years for western satellites sternberg downplayed the difference at these prices they can afford to launch new ones in addition shorter lifetimes mean that they can replace their equipment with newer technology so they will be able to compete better than older out of date hardware josh hopkins jbh uxa cso uiuc edu find a way or make one attributed to hannibal
sci.space	re space station redesign jsc alternative dbm tm lerc nasa gov david b mckissock writes text of options a and b deleted option c single core launch station this is the jsc lead option basically you take a ft diameter cylinder that s ft long slap space shuttle main engines on the backside put a nose cone on the top attached it to a regular shuttle external tank and a regular set of solid rocket motors and launch the can some key features are complete end to end ground integration and checkout tangentially mounted fixed solar panels body mounted radiators which adds protection against micrometeroid orbital debris centerline docking ports one on each end berthing ports a single pressurized volume approximately cubic feet twice the volume of skylab floors center passageway between floors kw of housekeeping power only kw graceful degradation with failures power channels thermal loops dual environmental control life support system increased crew time for utilization micro g thru out the core module ha north america modular space station construction same apprach same reasoning construction occurs under assembly line conditions no random weather problems interupting site work on your home better quality control sounds like first point above somehow i have a strange attraction for this idea living in a modular home maybe has altered my mind the only thing that scares me is the part about simply strapping ssme s and a nosecone on it and just launching it i have this vision of something going terribly wrong with the launch resulting in the complete loss of the new modular space station not just a peice of it as would be the case with staged in orbit construction michael f santangelo internet mike cbl umd edu work dept head computer network systems mike kavishar umd edu home umcees cbl solomons island bitnet mike umuc fwd to mike cbl
sci.space	re jemison on star trek in article apr aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes in article c sb p ib fs ece cmu edu loss fs ece cmu edu doug loss writes i saw in the newspaper last night that dr mae jemison the first black woman in space she s a physician and chemical engineer who flew on endeavour last year will appear as a transporter operator on the star trek the next generation episode that airs the week of may it s hardly space science i know but it s interesting doug loss interesting is rigth i wonder if they will make a mention of her being an astronaut in the credits i think it might help people connect the future of space with the present and give them an idea that we must go into space a transporter operator that better be one important transport usually it is a nameless ensign who does the job for such a guest appearance i would have expected a more visible meaningful role carlos g niederstrasser only two things are infinite princeton planetary society the universe and human stupidity and i m not sure about the former einstein carlosn phoenix princeton edu space phoenix princeton edu ad astra per ardua nostra
sci.space	re command loss timer re galileo update prb access digex com pat writes galileo s hga is stuck the hga was left closed because galileo had a venus flyby if the hga were pointed att he sun near venus it would cook the foci elements question why couldn t galileo s course manuevers have been designed such that the hga did not ever do a sun point the hga isn t all that reflective in the wavelengths that might cook the focal elements nor is its figure good on those scales the problem is that the antenna itself could not be exposed to venus level sunlight lest like icarus wings it melt i think it was glues and such as well as electronics that they were worried about thus it had to remain furled and the axis always pointed near the sun so that the small sunshade at the tip of the antenna mast would shadow the folded hga a larger sunshade beneath the antenna shielded the spacecraft bus mark looper hot rodders america s first recyclers
sci.space	gamma ray bursters where are they what evidence indicates that gamma ray bursters are very far away given the enormous power i was just wondering what if they are quantum black holes or something like that fairly close by why would they have to be at galactic ranges my own pet theory is that it s flying saucers entering hyperspace but the reason i am asking is that most everyone assumes that they are colliding nuetron stars or spinning black holes i just wondered if any mechanism could exist and place them closer in pat
sci.space	re stephen hawking tours jpl in article apr kelvin jpl nasa gov baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov ron baalke writes using a model of mars observer albee spent several minutes describing the project and the spacecraft s features in answer to a question from hawking chahine described a proposed drag free satellite but confirmed that at this point it s only a concept chahine who had met hawking at caltech about five too bad they didn t give him a tour of the cgro data i think he d be fascinated by the gamma ray bursters the mind of hawking might even propose a mechanism so what s a drag free satellite coated with wd carries an aluminum gold set of grateful dead albums inquiring minds want to know and why would mo carry any features for being drag free i thought aero braking was a possible mo experimental activity pat
sci.space	re boom whoosh in article r mcginne gap caltech edu kwp wag caltech edu kevin w plaxco writes in article scicom alphacdc com wats scicom alphacdc com bruce watson writes once inflated the substance was no longer needed since there is nothing to cause the balloon to collapse this inflatable structure could suffer multiple holes with no disastrous deflation preasure and the internal preasure that was needed to maintain a spherical shape against this resistance caused them to catastrophically deflated the large silvered shards the billboard should pop like a dime store balloon no you re wrong about this give me some time to get my references bruce watson wats scicom alphacdc com
sci.space	re level while we are on the subject of the shuttle software what ever happened to the hypothesis that the shuttle flight software was a major factor in the loss of l to wit that during the wind shear event the flight control software indicated a series of very violent engine movements that shocked and set upa harmonic resonance leading to an overstress of the struts pat
sci.space	re gravity waves was predicting gravity wave quantization cosmic noise in article c m e aud csn org et teal csn org eric h taylor writes from et teal csn org eric h taylor subject re gravity waves was predicting gravity wave quantization cosmic noise summary dong dong do i hear the death knell of relativity keywords space curvature nothing tesla date sun mar gmt in article c kvjf qo well sf ca us metares well sf ca us tom van flandern writes crb q kelvin seas virginia edu cameron randale bass writes bruce scott launchpad unc edu bruce scott writes existence is undefined unless it is synonymous with observable in physics crb dong dong dong do i hear the death knell of string theory i agree you can add dark matter and quarks and a lot of other unobservable purely theoretical constructs in physics to that list including the omni present black holes will bruce argue that their existence can be inferred from theory alone then what about my original criticism when i said curvature can only exist relative to something non curved bruce replied existence is undefined unless it is synonymous with observable in physics we cannot observe more than the four dimensions we know about at the moment i don t see a way to defend that statement and the existence of these unobservable phenomena simultaneously tom i hold that space cannot be curved for the simple reason that it can have no properties of properties we can only speak when dealing with matter filling the space to say that in the presence of large bodies space becomes curved is equivalent to stating that something can act upon nothing i for one refuse to subscribe to such a view nikola tesla et tesla was years ahead of his time perhaps now his time comes
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters where are they prb access digex com pat writes what evidence indicates that gamma ray bursters are very far away given the enormous power i was just wondering what if they are quantum black holes or something like that fairly close by why would they have to be at galactic ranges gamma ray bursts grbs are seen coming equally from all directions however given the number of bright ones there are too few faint ones to be consistent with being equally dense for as far as we can see it is as if they are all contained within a finite sphere or a sphere with fuzzy edges with us at the center these measurements are statistical and you can always hide a sufficiently small number of a different type of grb with a different origin in the data i am assuming that there is only one population of grbs the data indicates that we are less than of the radius of the center of the distribution the only things the earth is at the exact center of are the solar system at the scale of the oort cloud of comets way beyond pluto and the universe cosmological theories placing grbs throughout the universe require supernova type energies to be released over a timescale of milliseconds oort cloud models tend to be silly even by the standards of astrophysics if grbs were galactic i e distributed through the milky way galaxy you would expect them to be either concentrated in the plane of the galaxy for a disk population or towards the galactic center for a spherical halo population we don t see this so if they are galactic they must be in a halo at least light years in radius and we would probably start to see grbs from the andromeda galaxy assuming that it has a similar halo for comparison the earth is light years from the center of the galaxy my own pet theory is that it s flying saucers entering hyperspace the aren t concentrated in the known spacelanes and we don t see many coming from zeta reticuli and tau ceti but the reason i am asking is that most everyone assumes that they are colliding nuetron stars or spinning black holes i just wondered if any mechanism could exist and place them closer in there are more than grb different models in the refereed literature right now the theorists have a sort of unofficial moratorium on new models until new observational evidence comes in david m palmer palmer alumni caltech edu palmer tgrs gsfc nasa gov
sci.space	army in space i just got out of the army go signal corps or intelligence photointelligence interpretation if you go ada you might get to play with rockets but space will look pretty far away dug in the mud next to a grunt protecting the foward troops from low flying objects good luck origin americomm dallas info source
sci.space	re jemison on star trek in article apr princeton edu phoenix princeton edu carlosn carlos g niederstrasser writes a transporter operator that better be one important transport usually it is a nameless ensign who does the job for such a guest appearance i would have expected a more visible meaningful role christian slater only gota cameo on st and besides maybe she can t act pat
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky in article apr rhea arc ab ca thacker rhea arc ab ca writes in article c t k db research canon oz au enzo research canon oz au enzo liguori writes what about light pollution in observations i read somewhere else that it might even be visible during the day leave alone at night no need to be depressed about this one lights aren t on during the day so there shouldn t be any daytime light pollution thanks for these surreal moments srinivas srinivas bettadpur internet byab hermes chpc utexas edu p o box austin tx u s a tel bitnet byab uthermes
sci.space	re planets still images orbit by ether twist please get a real life
sci.space	drag free satellites was stephen hawking tours jpl in article raee b s access digex net prb access digex com pat writes in article apr kelvin jpl nasa gov baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov ron baalke writes in answer to a question from hawking chahine described a proposed drag free satellite but confirmed that at this point it s only a concept so what s a drag free satellite coated with wd i am puzzled by the term concept drag free may already have been flown it was the idea behind putting up a spacecraft that would more accurately respond to motions from the earth s gravity field and ignore drag it was proposed many years ago and involved a ball floating between sensors whose job it was to signal to little adjustment jets to keep the ball away from them the ball itself would then be in a drag free condition and respond only to gravity anisotropies whereas the spacecraft itself would be continuously adjusting its position to compensate for drag joseph cain cain geomag gly fsu edu cain fsu bitnet scri cain fax or
sci.space	russian phobos mission did the russian spacecraft s on the ill fated phobos mission a few years ago send back any images of the martian moon if so does anyone know if they re housed at an ftp site thanks
sci.space	re space debris another fish to check out is richard rast he works for lockheed missiles but is on site at nasa johnson nick johnson at kaman sciences in colo spgs and his friend darren mcknight at kaman in alexandria va good luck r landis behind every general is his wife and behind every hillary is a bill
sci.space	re soviet space book what in blazes is going on with wayne matson and gang down in alabama i also heard an unconfirmed rumor that aerospace ambassadors have disappeared can anyone else confirm rob landis stsci baltimore md
sci.space	re space station redesign jsc alternative in article apr tm lerc nasa gov dbm tm lerc nasa gov david b mckissock writes man tended capability griffin has not yet adopted non sexist language glad to see griffin is spending his time on engineering rather than on ritual purification of the language pity he got stuck with the turkey rather than one of the sensible options svr resembles a high speed collision henry spencer u of toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	re space station redesign jsc alternative in article ralibinnc f cbl umd edu mike starburst umd edu michael f santangelo writes the only thing that scares me is the part about simply strapping ssme s and a nosecone on it and just launching it i have this vision of something going terribly wrong with the launch resulting in the complete loss of the new modular space station not just a peice of it as would be the case with staged in orbit construction it doesn t make a whole lot of difference actually since they weren t building spares of the station hardware anyway dumb at least this is only one launch to fail svr resembles a high speed collision henry spencer u of toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	re level in article raejd bf access digex net prb access digex com pat writes what ever happened to the hypothesis that the shuttle flight software was a major factor in the loss of l to wit that during the wind shear event the flight control software indicated a series of very violent engine movements that shocked and set upa harmonic resonance leading to an overstress of the struts this sounds like another of ali abutaha s different real causes of the challenger accident as far as i know there has never been the slightest shred of evidence for a harmonic resonance having occurred the windshear induced maneuvering probably did contribute to opening up the leak path in the srb joint again it seems to have sealed itself after the puffs of smoke during liftoff but the existing explanation of this and related events seems to account for the evidence adequately svr resembles a high speed collision henry spencer u of toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	re planets still images orbit by ether twist in apr coe montana edu uphrrmk gemini oscs montana edu jack coyote writes in sci astro dmcaloon tuba calpoly edu david mcaloon writes a nearly perfect parody needed more random caps thanks for the chuckle i loved the bit about relevance to people starving in somalia to those who ve taken this seriously read the name aloud well i thought it must have been a joke but i don t get the joke in the name read it aloud david macaloon david macalloon david macaloon i don t geddit dave empey speaking for himself thank you thank you i ll be here all week enjoy the buffet
sci.space	general information request i am looking for any information about the space program this includes nasa the shuttles history anything i would like to know if anyone could suggest books periodicals even ftp sites for a novice who is interested in the space program todd giaquinto maverick wpi wpi edu
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters where are they in article radsr att access digex net prb access digex com pat writes what evidence indicates that gamma ray bursters are very far away given the enormous power i was just wondering what if they are quantum black holes or something like that fairly close by why would they have to be at galactic ranges my own pet theory is that it s flying saucers entering hyperspace but the reason i am asking is that most everyone assumes that they are colliding nuetron stars or spinning black holes i just wondered if any mechanism could exist and place them closer in pat well lets see i took a class on this last fall and i have no notes so i ll try to wing it here s how i understand it remember from stellar evolution that black holes and neutron stars pulsars are formed from high mass stars m star m sun high mass stars live fast and burn hard taking appoximately years before going nova or supernova in this time they don t live long enough to get perturbed out of the galactic plane so any of these if assumed to be the sources of grb s will be in the plane of the galaxy then we take the catalog of bursts that have been recieved from the various satellites around the solar system pioneer venus has one either pion or ginga and of course batse and we do distribution tests on our catalog these tests all show that the bursts have an isotropic distribution evenly spread out in a radial direction and they show signs of homogeneity i e they do not clump in any one direction so unless we are sampling the area inside the disk of the galaxy we are sampling the universe not cool if you want to figure out what the hell caused these things now i suppose you are saying well we stil only may be sampling from inside the disk well not necessarily remember we have what is more or less an interplanetary network of burst detectors with a baseline that goes waaaay out to beyond pluto pioneer so we should be able with all of our detectors de tect some sort of difference in angle from satellite to satellite here s an analogy you see a plane overhead you measure the angle of the plane from the origin of your arbitrary coordinate system one of your friends a mile away sees the same plane and measures the angle from the zero point of his arbitrary system which is the same as yours the two angles are different and you should be able to triangulate the position of your burst and maybe find a source to my knowledge no one has been able to do this i should throw in why halo and corona models don t work also as i said before looking at the possible astrophysics of the bursts short timescales high energy black holes and pulsars exhibit much of this type of behavior if this is the case as i said before these stars seem to be bound to the disk of the galaxy especially the most energetic of the these sources when you look at a simulated model where the bursts are confined to the disk but you sample out to large distances say mpc you should definitely see not only an anisotropy towards you in all direction but a clumping of sources in the direction of the galactic center as i said before there is none of these characteristics i think that s all of it if someone needs clarification or knows something that i don t know by all means correct me i had the honor of taking the bursts class with the person who has done the modeling of these different distributions so we pretty much kicked around every possible distribution there was and some very outrageous sources colliding pulsars black holes pulsars that are slowing down stuff like that it s a fun field complaints and corrections to belgarath vax mankato msus edu or post here jeremy
sci.space	re hst servicing mission scheduled for days somebody mentioned a re boost of hst during this mission meaning that weight is a very tight margin on this mission how will said re boost be done grapple hst stow it in cargo bay do oms burn to high altitude unstow hst repair gyros costar install fix solar arrays then return to earth my guess is why bother with usingthe shuttle to reboost why not grapple do all said fixes bolt a small liquid fueled thruster module to hst then let it make the re boost it has to be cheaper on mass then usingthe shuttle as a tug that way now that they are going to need at least spacewalks then they can carry an edo pallet and sit on station and even maybe do the solar array tilt motor fix pat
sci.space	russian phobos mission yes the phobos mission did return some useful data including images of phobos itself the best i ve seen had a surface resolution of about meters by the way the new book entitled mars kieffer et al university of arizona press has a great chapter on spacecraft exploration of the planet the chapter is co authored by v i moroz of the space research institute in moscow and includes details never before published in the west don t know of any ftp sites with images though tom o reilly department of geology arizona state university
sci.space	how can you see the launch of the space shuttle sorry for asking a question that s not entirely based on the technical aspects of space but i couldn t find the answer on the faqs i m currently in the uk which makes seeing a space shuttle launch a little difficult however i have been selected to be an exchange student at louisiana state uni from august and i am absolutely determined to get to see a space shuttle launch sometime during the year at which i will be in america i hear there s a bit of a long mailing list so if someone can tell me how to get tickets and where to get them from then please e mail me thanks very much for your patience and if anyone else wants to know tell me and i ll summarize for you just to save all those poor people who have to pay for their links april is the cruellest month andrew wong mixing memory and desire x e mail c h a wong bradford ac uk t s eliot the wasteland
sci.space	re hst servicing mission scheduled for days in article rd g ckb access digex net prb access digex com pat writes how will said re boost be done grapple hst stow it in cargo bay do oms burn to high altitude unstow hst repair gyros costar install fix solar arrays then return to earth actually the reboost will probably be done last so that there is a fuel reserve during the evas in case they have to chase down an adrift astronaut or something like that but yes you ve got the idea the reboost is done by taking the whole shuttle up my guess is why bother with usingthe shuttle to reboost why not grapple do all said fixes bolt a small liquid fueled thruster module to hst then let it make the re boost somebody has to build that thruster module it s not an off the shelf item nor is it a trivial piece of hardware since it has to include attitude control hst s own is not strong enough to compensate for things like thruster imbalance guidance there is no provision to feed gyro data from hst s own gyros to an external device and separation you don t want it left attached afterward if only to avoid possible contamination after the telescope lid is opened again you also get to worry about whether the lid is going to open after the reboost is done and hst is inaccessible to the shuttle the lid stays closed for the duration of all of this to prevent mirror contamination from thrusters and the like the original plan was to use the orbital maneuvering vehicle to do the reboost the omv was planned to be a sort of small space tug well suited to precisely this sort of job unfortunately it was costing a lot to develop and the list of definitely known applications was relatively short so it got cancelled svr resembles a high speed collision henry spencer u of toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	re planets still images orbit by ether twist in article apr mksol dseg ti com mccall mksol dseg ti com fred j mccall writes in apr zeus calpoly edu dmcaloon tuba calpoly edu david mcaloon writes ether implodes earth core is gravity if not for the lack of extraneously capitalized words i d swear that mcelwaine had changed his name and moved to cal poly i also find the choice of newsgroups interesting perhaps someone should tell this guy that sci astro doesn t stand for astrology it s truly frightening that posts like this are originating at what are ostensibly centers of higher learning in this country small wonder that the rest of the world thinks we re all nuts and that we have the problems that we do in case you haven t gotten it yet david i don t think this was quite appropriate for a posting to sci groups was that post for real i thought it was a late april fool joke some of it seemed a bit over the top even by mcelwaine abian etc standards ross smith wanganui nz alien acheron amigans gen nz and crawling on the planet s face some insects called the human race lost in time and lost in space rhps
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky re space billboards even easier to implement than writing messages on the moon once upon a time a group of space activists i belonged to in seattle considered a goodyear blimp in orbit the idea was to use a large structure that could carry an array of lights like the goodyear blimp has placed in a low earth orbit of high inclination it could eventually be seen by almost everyone on earth only our collective disapproval of cluttering up space with such a thing stopped us from pursuing it it had quite feasible economics which i will not post here because i don t want to encourage the idea if you want to do such a thing go figure it out for yourself dani eder dani eder meridian investment company w h rt box athens al location deg n deg w m alt
sci.space	re drag free satellites was stephen hawking tours jpl joe your description sounds like one of the gravity probe spacecraft ideas pat
sci.space	re how many read sci space in article apr mksol dseg ti com mccall mksol dseg ti com fred j mccall writes isn t my real name either i m actually elvis or maybe a lemur i sometimes have difficulty telling which is which definitely a lemur elvis couldn t spell just listen to any of his songs pat
sci.space	re sunrise sunset times in article r f a ai news umbc edu rouben math math umbc edu rouben rostamian writes how the length of the daylight varies with the time of the year experiment with various choices of latitudes and tilt angles compare the behavior of the function at locations above and below the arctic circle if you want to have some fun plug the basic formulas into lotus use the spreadsheet auto re calc and graphing functions to produce bar graphs based on latitude tilt and hours of day light avg pat
sci.space	true globe who makes it it has been known for quite a while that the earth is actually more pear shaped than globular spherical does anyone make a globe that is accurate as to actual shape landmass configuration long lat lines etc thanks in advance bill xpresso uucp bill vance bothell wa rwing xpresso bill you listen when i xpresso i listen when uuxpresso
sci.space	commercial space news commercial space news space technology investor number this is number twenty two in an irregular series on commercial space activities the commentaries included are my thoughts on these developments sigh as usual i ve gotten behind in getting this column written i can only plead the exigency of the current dynamics in the space biz this column is put together at lunch hour and after the house quiets down at night so data can quickly build up if there s a lot of other stuff going on i ve complied a lot of information and happenings since the last column so i m going to have to work to keep this one down to a readable length have fun contents us commercial space sales flatten in delta wins two key launch contracts commercial remote sensing venture gets doc go ahead investment firm calls gd s space biz still a good investment ariane predicts dip in launch demand ntsb investigates pegasus launch over aborted abort another pegasus competitor is announced georgia launch site dropped from planning spain s capricornia launcher still proceeding pacastro signs launch reservation with swedish space corp china and taiwan joint satellite venture reported south korea announces national move into space technologies space technology indexes through march final notes articles us commercial space sales flatten in the us department of commerce projects us commercial space sales will remain flat in with current data showing only a percent growth over as published in us industrial outlook which was released in january revenues from the us space business are currently projected to be about m in contrast to previous years when us commercial space sales had shown double digits growth rates this year s projected results are driven by the us satellite manufacturing industry where sales are projected to drop from satellites worth m in to satellites worth m in the us industrial outlook also projects u s commercial launchers faces flat demand in coming year and while predicting that revenues will increase percent to m future sales will be adversely affected by the downward revision in department of defense launch plans offsetting flat launch revenues and satellite deliveries revenues for fixed and mobile satellite services are projected to increase to m primarily driven by increased revenues from broadcast and cable tv networks similarly remote sensing products and sales are projected to increase to m in up us commercial space revenues r e commercial satellites satellite services fixed mobile satellite ground equip mobile equipment commercial launches remote sensing data and services private microgravity research lab total annual revenues r revised data for e estimated data for commentary this is the first look at how the us commercial space industry is expected to do in in general not a bad report with most of the bad news concentrated in the satellite manufacturing area there changes of only a few satellites worth m or so apiece can substantially influence the annual projection if we look forward over several years this market sector should retain strong sales as us firms have been very successful in regaining international market share in the satellite business furthermore sales of satellite ground equipment should go up in the next revision of this data expected to be released about mid year data on mobile satellite ground equipment sales including such items as gps receivers and portable satellite terminals appears to be missing from the january data set doc usually publishes a listing of space business indicators in mid year and the next revision of commercial space revenues should be released then i expect the revised revenues should easily top m if the mobile satellite ground equipment are added back into the numbers and the year should show about a overall market growth looking beyond this year s data future markets look quite promising the doc projects satellite service revenues could top m by if new mobile satellite services and direct broadcasting are implemented as planned and that mobile satellite station sales are expected to continue to growth at per year through the mid s my numbers are somewhat more pessimistic for near term market growth but i agree the trend should be for substantial growth in us commercial space sales over at least the next years my pessimism is due to more conservative assumptions on market capture and growth in leo communications and satellite direct broadcasting services i don t believe all of the current players in the yet to be born leo communications satellite market and in the yet to be proven direct broadcasting market will be financial successes nor that sales growth will be as explosive as currently projected it should also be noted this year s doc data is the first release to show revenues from privately funded microgravity research facilities the m shown in the janurary data is primarily for the spacehab module planned for launch in april on the space shuttle but also hidden in these numbers are the projected first sales from the comet orbital launch and recovery experiment module delta wins two key launch contracts mcdonnell douglas corporation which builds and markets the delta launch vehicle has won two important launch contracts motorola inc announced in mid february that it had selected the delta to launch most of the satellites in the satellite iridium leo communications constellation and in mid april mcdonnell douglas was awarded the usaf medium launch vehicle iii contract the launch services contract with motorola for the iridium constellation launch is for at launch of least iridium satellites another satellites have been contracted to be launched by khrunichev enterprise in russian on proton vehicle launches these satellites planned for the delta will be launched at a time providing for at least launches additional satellites in the iridium constellation such as a planned on orbit spares may also be launched on delta although details of the launch services contract were reported to be negotiation and not yet final the usaf mlv contract also went to mdc bidding a variant of their delta ii launcher this contract is only initially worth million but establishes a set of launch options for up to launches encompassing launches from through these launches will deploy the next generation of the usaf s global positioning system block iir navigation satellites plus other programs first option for to meet the usaf launch options is expected to be exercised this year after which the usaf is expected to request launches of up to deltas per year for at least years under this contract the usaf can also request launch on demand services from mdc for the time period with a launch to occur within days of the request commentary if these two contracts are fulfilled they should provide an excellent business base for mdc s delta launch program through the turn of the century combined these two contracts have a potential for about launches worth about m to mdc and sustaining a core business base of m year other contracts for international and commercial payloads as well as for nasa medium elv class payloads will add to this business base keeping mdc as a viable commerical launch company however it should be noted there are risk elements in these contracts motorola s iridium leo communications constellation has not yet received a us federal communications commission license for operation in the u s nor has motorola lined up all the financing and financial partners for the iridium venture without these approvals or financial backing there will be no iridium launches but hopefully these uncertainties will be settled this year similarly the usaf mlv iii program has been the target of several congressional actions which have slowed the production of the gps block iir satellites and deleted the funding for the mlv iii program in favor of the usaf nls spacelifter program at this time while it appears the mlv iii contract will be executed future funding for the mlv iii and other usaf commercial launch contracts is being reconsidered as part of national space launch strategy reviews some opinions expressed from within the administration and congress propose cancellation of all elv upgrade programs including the mlv programs in favor of the proposed spacelifter program such opinions may have some weight in this year s budget deliberations particularly as dod funds will be more difficult to find in the shrinking us defense budget commercial remote sensing venture gets doc go ahead the first commercial license to operate a remote sensing satellite was approved in early february by the us department of commerce s office of space commerce a license was granted to worldview imaging corporation of oakland california to build and operate a pair of leo imaging satellites to provide multi spectral images of the earth commentary there has been little data released on this venture by worldview and the doc other than the announcement of the operating and construction license this was reported to be at the request of worldview most industry speculation identifies this new venture as a star wars spinoff using sdi type technology to provide digital earth sensing data and heavily integrated into digital gis databases for remote sensing gis users most probable customers for this service include exploration geologists agricultural planners and urban planners it is noteworthy this is the first commercial venture under the land remote sensing policy act the act as passed last november provides that remote sensing data gathered from private remote sensing craft may be sold to users at differing prices prior to this act remote sensing data from all satellites had to be sold to all users at the same prices and private remote sensing ventures would have had to sell at the government set landsat data prices there are rumors of several other potential commercial remote sensing ventures working their way through the system at different stages of development i think the large landsat and spot satellite systems will provide the majority of the satellite remote sensing data market for the next decade or so in contrast to these large government sponsored remote sensing systems smaller market ventures such as worldview and others can exploit market niches and use innovative technology and i believe can find profitability on the margin i predict there may be some very interesting ventures appearing in the next year or so investment firm calls gd s space biz still a good investment wall street investment house morgan stanley thinks general dynamic s space systems division could still be a moneymaker despite having failed in the last atlas launches in a recent analyst s report morgan stanley said we are more than ever convinced that if the company can return the atlas to its historical plus success rate this will become a highly profitable cash generating unit based upon discussions with gd s corporate management morgan stanley projects that if the atlas problems are cleared up the unit could see m in earnings per year by and m per year by this is based upon gd s projection of capturing about atlas launches per year on the world market commentary three failures in a row of their launch system has hurt general dynamic s space systems division since gd has restructured to only keep a very few profitable core businesses many market pundits have been speculating gd s space business might be next to be sold the morgan stanley report indicates gd s space systems division has some potential as a moneymaker despite current problems if they can get their act together sales are projected to be about m in which will probably generate a loss of about m if gd can capture their projected share of the space launch market and if they have managed to clean up the reliability of their atlas launchers then they could generate healthy profits from those sales but until they demonstrate the atlas centaur program is back on track this division will continue to show substantial losses in response to the sell off rumors in my opinion this operation is not a really good candidate for takeover and quick profitability to do such a takeover the current set corporate and divisional management would be replaced with another set from outside the firm in gd ssd s case to get the division back on track the management team will have to concentrate hard on the technical problems with the atlas centaur as well as in selling atlas services this would indicate only another firm with experience in rocket launch operations could find such talent in house and be able to convince customers to buy their launch services optimally the firm would have substantial liquid rocket experience and experience in marketing space technology internationally as well candidates for this might be trw rockwell lockheed and martin and possibly mcdonnell douglas and boeing but most of those firms have cash flow problems mdc have had a substantial business contraction boeing and mdc are involved with other launch firms lockheed or have taken on substantial debt martin and coming up with the m purchase price for the division is a big chunk of change for any company ariane predicts dip in launch demand arianespace the operator of the ariane launch system is projecting a dip in launch demand in the late s in early february arianespace released their annual market survey which detailed their projection of the space transportation market for the next decade over short run arianespace expects to retain their dominant position and sustain a majority share of the launch market of international and commercial launches planned through ariane holds contracts for general dynamics atlas vehicle holds contracts mcdonnell douglas delta holds and great wall s long march vehicle holds launch contracts three quarters of future launch contracts for which ariane can compete are projected to come from communications satellites with the remaining split between weather earth observation and scientific satellites most of the future telecommunications demand growth is predicted to come from the asia pacific region arianespace expects the current market consolidation of individual satellite operators into regional or national groups will continue with these groups investing in heavier satellites with larger communications payloads carrying more transponders arianespace predicts the average mass of telecommunications satellites should increase by over today s average level to about kg in geo demand for commercial launch services is expected to remain strong over the next three years but in the second half of the decade arianespace predicts demand will decrease arianespace bases this prediction upon a matching of satellite transponder demand and supply particularly as new data compression techniques appear to could double or triple transponder capacity using existing or near term transponders one of the significant possible changes in the market was identified as the arrival of new launch vehicles including russian launch systems but arianespace predicts that in the long term investors purchasing launch services are looking for the best trade off between launch service quality and price and that russian and other new launch services will have to prove out their capabilities and service quality and their market penetration will be minimal commentary ariane releases their market surveys annually and i reported on their prior market survey in a past issue of csn sti comparing the two surveys there aren t outstanding differences in the numbers the most notable change is the consideration of new data compression techniques reducing the demand for new physical transponders on orbit i note that in contrast to some predictions demand for space based communications transponders appears to be remain strong while fiber optic lines are making substantial inroads into the established point to point telecommunications markets growing demand for telecommunications services world wide and for point to multipoint broadcast services have prevented a decrease in space transponder demand fiberoptic cables provide a higher capability service but only from established point a to established point b to establish a fiberoptic link it is necessary to install cable between the points and while there are improved network solutions installing a large network of distributed fiberoptic links can cost millions or billions of dollars for broadcast services where there is not an existing ground network structure satellites still offer the most cost effective solution and if new services are required into a new region it is cheaper to install a small satellite link costing only a few tens of thousands of dollars and tie into the existing global satellite network this allows rapid growth of new satellite services and has kept demand high the replacement market for fiberoptics is growing as well since as demand grows between the points serviced it becomes cost effective to later install a fiberoptic link to handle the increase in traffic since the telecommunications and data transfer markets are still growing rapidly satellite market projections remain rosy but satellites are also getting longer orbital lifetimes current generation satellites are now getting guarantees of at years of on orbit service or more in contrast to years of service from last generation s satellites this has cut back some of the launch demand as satellite owners are rescheduling replacement satellite launches over longer intervals and as last note arianespace didn t flag it this year but it looks like the space transportation market will be rather over supplied by existing launch systems in the near term the annual commercial launch demand is for about medium sized satellites per year from the supply side ariane is capable of launching up to about a dozen medium sized satellites a year delta is capable of about per year atlas is capable of long march japan s h vehicle russia s proton capable of and other systems such as zenit and soyuz another medium launches per year that s a lot of capability for a small market we can only expect the competition to intensify for commercial launches ntsb investigates pegasus launch over aborted abort the feb pegasus launch by orbital sciences corporation has spawned an investigation over an apparent violation of range safety rules a valid abort order from a nasa range safety officer to halt the mission was overridden and the pegasus was launched in violation of range safety rules in the last few minutes of the pegasus launch countdown one of two abort command receivers aboard the pegasus failed such a failure typically scrubs a launch and a nasa range safety officer at wallops island va issued a mission abort order about a minute before the scheduled pegasus launch somehow this command was overridden by the osc launch team or the message was lost in the communications channels and the pegasus was launched despite the valid abort call fortunately the pegasus functioned as expected and the abort command receiver was not needed but this incident did spark an investigation since a valid abort order was given under agreed to launch constraint rules and was not obeyed leading the investigation is the national transportation safety board ntsb with support from nasa osc and the air force this investigation marks the first time ntsb has taken the lead on an incident involving a space launch according to the ntsb their investigation will take about months and is primarily looking at lines of authority communications links and safety procedures used in the launch commentary this is the first time that the ntsb has led an investigation into a space launch their leadership was requested by the department of commerce s office of commercial space transportation who had licensed the commercial launch at the time of writing this column some of the initial investigations have been concluded and some of the results are starting to leak out into the trade press apparently or four different communications channels were in use during the test after the abort destruct receiver stopped responding the nasa test director and range controller in the mission control room at wallops island gave abort orders about a minute before the launch according to the mission rules this should have stopped the launch somehow the osc test conductor ordered the abort reversed and the nasa communicator on the net relayed that order to the b carrying the pegasus at about seconds before launch differing explainations of exactly how this happened are proposed with the best set being that clear lines of communications and clear definition of the responsibilities of the mission control team and understanding of the mission rules were not established before the launch as we see more and more commercial launches more of these procedural issues are going to crop up and will have to be resolved this case is interesting because it is the first time the ntsb has been called in to investigate a commercial launch problem as they do with commercial aircraft problems i think this problem will turn out to be primarily problems with procedures and communications and will be cleared up with issuance of guidelines on how launch communications should be set up and how specific lines of authority should be delineated another pegasus competitor is announced tsniimach enterprise in russia announced it is marketing a new small space launch system based upon converted icbm components two versions of the launcher are being marketed the aerokosmos winged vehicle launched like the osc pegasus and the severkosmos launched from a mobile ground transporter the aerokosmos is projected to deliver kg to a km circular orbit or kg to an km circular orbit and the severkosmos to be capable of kg to km orbits and kg to km also proposed to be used with these launch systems is a leo data relay system called sineva tsniimach enterprise is described as a ex military establishment focusing on aerodynamics and thermal protection of spacecraft and which has participated in the development of the buran shuttle system they are located near the npo energia facility in kaliningrad outside of moscow commentary there s very little released information on this new venture my suspicion is it is another russian enterprise looking for hard currency and trying to capitalize upon their in house knowledge of ex soviet launch systems it adds to the list of numerous commercial space startups announced from the ex soviet union this one s a little different in that they are offering variants of ex soviet icbms but i can t identify any key customers being targeted or substantial financial backing georgia launch site dropped from planning in late january georgia tech research institute released the results of a preliminary study on the feasibility of a commercial rocket launching site in camden county georgia at the old kingsland missile test launching site on the atlantic coast the preliminary study recommended the site not be pursued as a commercial launch site stating reopening the site was not feasible due to projected low investment returns plus environmental and other geographic considerations however the report did say the site might be ideal for other aerospace uses and recommended other potential uses commentary this should put the nails in the coffin of the kingsland commercial launch site while other sites are still proceeding with commercial launch site development plans kingsland found without a key customer to act as anchor tenant and if substantial infrastructure had to be put in then the expected returns were too low to justify the cost of development this might point out some key discriminators in judging the feasibility of a commercial launch site these include is there an identified key customer to provide core usage sufficient to recover setup costs is there a market advantage of using the site can existing infrastructure be used or modified at the site can financing be found at low enough cost to support the investment other commercial launch site ventures including those at woomera poker flat cape york white sands alabama off shore platform hawaii and vandenberg have to also be judged against these criteria in my opinion some of these ventures are flying on hope and speculation and not on sound financial grounds spain s capricornia launcher still proceeding in one of his last official acts former president bush authorized space technology transfer for several joint space ventures between us and other firms one of these was a proposed use of us technology by spain to build a small booster with that regulatory impediment removed the stage capricornia launch vehicle will start development later this year planning for a first launch in the time period the capricornia is described as a small stage all solid booster designed to put kg into leo several launch sites are being examined for the system including on the iberian peninsula and on the canary islands originated by inta in spain the project reports it has m in development funding and will use technology from argentina s condor launch vehicle as well as from the us commentary several firms have identified a market opportunity in providing a small launcher for the european market small payloads from european firms or organizations currently use either ariane piggyback launches or the us italian scout launcher however ariane piggyback opportunities are limited and the scout program is being phased out accompanied by some disarray in the italian government and space industry regarding any follow on system this has left an apparent niche for a new european small launch system surprisingly enough esa has not supported development of such a system within the current space funding structure studies have been performed by british aerospace aerospatiale deutsche aerospace and italian organizations but with the exception of the swedish pacastro system reported below i have not been able to find any other european development work with even a rumor of funding for hardware also of interest is the linking of the capricornia to the argentinian condor launcher there have been some interesting rumors surfacing out of argentina over the past year about a space launcher irbm program funded under the military junta which ruled the country in the s and early s what is known is in feb the argentinian air force formally transferred control of the condor missile program to the new civilian argentinian national space agency comison nacional de atividades espaciales cnae the condor program was described as originating in expanding upon the smaller condor rocket program in collaboration with egypt and with support of german firms the condor was also reportedly funded indirectly by iraq in the mid s fairly large solid rocket motors were built and tested but argentinan development of a suitable guidance package lagged that of the propulsion system it should be noted cnae is planning to launch its first scientific satellite in late the us m kg sac b satellite will study the earth s upper atmosphere and includes cooperative experiments from italy and the us no launch vehicle has yet been selected but osc s pegasus and the russian burlak air launched rocket are reported to be strong contenders for this contract pacastro signs launch reservation with swedish space corp pacastro a small launch firm in herndon virginia announced in late february it had received a m launch reservation contract from the swedish space corp to launch a satellite on pacastro s pa launch vehicle this will be performed as part of the polar satellite service pss a joint norwegian space center swedish space corp program to upgrade the andoya rocket range in norway and offering small satellite launches into the polar regions according to pacastro pss is also performing an m upgrade of the andoya launch facilities including a new integration facility and a fully enclosed vertical assembly building for small launch vehicles like the pacastro pa pacastro has been chosen as the main alternative rocket supplier for the small satellite launch service to be offered by pss from andoya the date of the launch of the swedish satellite was not specified commentary pacastro has been trying to line up customers and funding for their launch vehicle for some time now the pa is a small two stage rocket fueled by rp and liquid oxygen from pacastro s literature the engines designed for the pa series rockets are built of off the shelf components based upon the lunar module descent engines built by trw and are capable of putting a kg satellite into a km circular polar orbit pacastro is trying to arrange construction financing for its first three pa vehicles with a first launch planned for and orbital launches planned for my records show pacastro hired trw to provide marketing support and systems design with primary engineering to be done by aeroastro a small satellite builder closely associated with pacastro headquartered in the same building the swedish space corporation would supply engineering launch operations vehicle subsystems and marketing support sumitomo corp of tokyo is a first round investor and sits on the board of directors pacastro has gotten a first round financial package of at least k some sources place this of high as m but has been searching for about a year for the additional m needed to design build and launch their first set of vehicles the launch reservation from ssc can possibly be used to help bring some investors on board but by my estimate they will need much more than the single m sale to put their venture into real hardware china and taiwan joint satellite venture reported in early march it was reported a joint satellite communications venture between a taiwanese and mainland chinese was in the works as reported in the taipei press china development corp cdc headquartered in taiwam and with links to the ruling nationalist party is planning to set up a joint venture in hong kong with china great wall industry corp with the objective of launching a regional communications satellite cdc would cover about of the satellite system cost us m in exchange for rights to of the satellite s communications channels commentary this announcement came close on the heels of the release of taiwanese plans for space development released in mid january in those plans the national space program office of taiwan will launch satellites starting with rocsat a kg scientific spacecraft planned for launch in two additional satellites are planned both communications satellites trw has been helping taiwan plan this program budgeted at t b us m through i haven t been able to establish any relationship between this venture and those of the nspot but there might be a connection while taiwan has the financing to pursue several ventures the current taiwanese telecommunications market might not support two separate sastellite ventures the reported name for the tiawanese chinese system is asiasat but i don t thinks this has any relationship with the existing hong kong based asiasat program involving chinese hong kong and other asian investors other than using it as an organizational model there are some obvious advantages to pursuing such a joing venture it could provide excellent first hand experience to taiwan for a very low cost which then can be used in later satellite ventures but there are internal political issues between taiwanese and chinese ventures but putting any joint venture through a hong kong intermediary corporation might allow it to proceed in any case the east asian satellite market is lighting up with substantially growth projected in space services and revenues this is just another indicator to add to the list south korea announces national move into space technologies south korea s trade industry and resources ministry recently announced plans to invest us b in research and development and another us b into manufacturing and research facilities for advanced aerospace technologies space technologies have been specifically targeted as part of this program beginning with manufacture and launch of an advanced multi purpose satellite by the objective of this investment is to raise south korea s aerospace technology to the level of the world s top countries by commentary south korea has been quietly working to develop its national aerospace industry specifically including space activities i m noting this as a flag that potential new players are coming into the commercial space market as part of their national effort national telecommunications satellites for korea telecom will be launched in april and oct on delta designated koreasat and the platforms will provide television and telephone service throughout the korean peninsula southwestern japan and portions of china bordering north korea south korea launched its first small satellite piggyback on ariane in aug called uribyol our star and costing about us m uribyol is planned for piggyback launch in october of this year again on ariane and will be entirely made in korea uribyol projected for a launch will be an environment monitoring micro satellite this satellite may be the precursor to a series of small earth observation satellites the keos korean earth observation system project which has been submitted for approval to the south korean government would use two or three kg spacecraft equipped with optical and microwave sensors south korean press reports claim there is also a parallel military effort to establish the capabilities for building and launching small military satellites by supposedly a government panel had been established to oversee such an effort funded at us m between and in anticipation of an expected pullout of u s intelligence gathering systems from the korean peninsula in conjunction with all of these reported efforts south korean is also pursuing production work either as off sets to existing aerospace technology contracts for example mcdonnell douglas is offsetting production of some delta parts to south korean firms as part of the koreasat launch contracts or for production of consumer space items among other products south korea exports satellite receiver television setups to japan and samsung has announced teaming for production of osc s orbcomm user terminals this looks like a very aggressive push into space technologies considering that east asia is currently the fastest growing sector for commercial space services primarily for telecommunications a south korean push into space technologies may change the composition of commercial space market there over the next decade space technology indexes through march as announced in the last csn sti each issue will give the results of stock indexes and portfolios regarding space stocks and investments the table below summarizes results to the end of march the space technology index did quite a bit better than the market as a whole as represented by the s p index since of the values included in the index are us firms this represents a general increase in the market value of space related firms the increase in the first quarter is more than in all of which is a very promising sign although future months may reverse this trend the commercial space technology index has also done quite well but the pure play portfolio consisting of stocks of firms which are pure plays in space technologies has also surpassed its results in all of we ll keep an eye on these index results through march beginning beginning jan to mar s p space tech index comm l space tech index space tech pure plays final notes what this column s already full and i still have bunches of commercial space developments to report on as i said at the start of this column there s been a lot of interesting happenings but i ll have to put them into the next issue looking ahead i ve got several articles in the works on new happenings with iridium and the leo communications satellite market more news on international launchers appearing and disappearing on the market new international commercial space ventures and other interesting developments and as always i hope you folks find this stuff useful and interesting any and all comments are welcome wales larrison space technology investor felicitas multos habet amicos p o box seal beach ca
sci.space	space advertising of two developments have brought these type of activities back to the forefront in first in february the russians deployed a m reflector from a progress vehicle after it had departed from the mir space station while this banner reflector was blank npo energia was very active in reporting that future banner reflectors will be available to advertisers who could use a space based video of their logo or ad printed on the banner in a tv commercial as filmed from the mir the second development has been that space marketing inc the same company responsible for merchandising space on the conestoga booster and comet spacecraft is now pushing the environmental billboard as laid out by smi chief engineer dr ron humble of the university of colorado space laboratory and preston carter of the lawrence livermore national laboratory the environmental billboard is a large inflatable outer support structure of up to x meters advertising is carried by a mylar reflective area deployed by the inflatable frame to help sell the concept the spacecraft responsible for maintaining the billboard on orbit will carry ozone reading sensors to continuously monitor the condition of the earth s delicate protective ozone layer according to mike lawson head of smi furthermore the inflatable billboard has reached its minimum exposure of days it will be released to re enter the earth s atmosphere according to imi as the biodegradable material burns it will release ozone building components that will literally replenish the ozone layer the remaining spacecraft will monitor the atmosphere for another year before it too re enters and burns up and adds to the ozone supply this would not be a cheap advertisement costing at least several millions of dollars exact costs were not available but smi estimates that market exposure would be x that of the people who watched the superbowl where a second advertising unit cost since smi is located in atlanta georgia it is being promoted as being available in time for the opening of the summer olympics in atlanta but back to brian s questions and does anyone have any more details other than what was in the wn news blip how serious is this project is this just in the wild idea stage or does it have real funding see above as for serious if they can get m or so my estimate of for development costs and a flight unit plus m for a launch then it s probably real they are claiming to tailor the orbit to overfly specific locations at specific times for optimum advertising impact so they probably can t piggy back upon someone else s planned launch and will have to buy a dedicated launch that s a m cost they need to raise right there and there will probably be some legal challenges to this as well note there is one potential legal challenge to smi on the use of launch vehicle advertising already while i don t think the legal challenges would win out and yes i am an amateur astronomer and no i don t really like the idea of this additional light pollution but i know of no prohibition of it the legal challenges and court fights would probably remove any positive aspects of the advertising i can imagine several ways to make the advertisers look like louts for doing this which would change positive market exposure to negative market exposure and negate the space advertising advantage would you spend m to look like an idiot and light pollution might not be too bad if it s in a low enough orbit and it relies upon reflected light only it would only be visible for a short time just after local dusk and before dawn for maximum market exposure you want to have it visible just after dusk minimizing impact on astronomy since that s the time of worse seeing due to day night thermal turbulence it might still be a problem but perhaps there are ways to mitigate this as for having real funding none that i can identify there were about expressions of interest made on the conestoga advertising opportunity but that included curious folks and was for only a commitment i haven t heard of any serious funding for this but i m sure they are shopping the venture around looking for some money in order to flesh out the concept some more but i am confident there are no firm or paying customers at this time and if anybody wants to cross post this to sci astro please be my guest i don t have posting privileges to that area or at least i don t think i do wales larrison space technology investor maximus wb
sci.space	space advertising of brian yamauchi asks regarding orbital billboards and does anyone have any more details other than what was in the wn news blip how serious is this project is this just in the wild idea stage or does it have real funding well i had been collecting data for next edition of the commercial space news space technology investor to summarize space advertising first advertising on space vehicles is not new it is very common practice to put the cooperating organization s logos on the space launch vehicle for example the latest gps launcher had the very prominent logos on its side of mcdonnell douglas the delta launcher rockwell international who built the gps satellite usaf who paid for the satellite and launch and the gps navstar program office this has not been considered paid advertising but rather public relations since the restrictions have been such that only organizations involved in the launch could put their logos on the side and there was no money exchanged for this however putting a high logo on the side of the launch vehicle facing the cameras is advertising as much as it is public relations in my opinion and by the way i note that the dc x test vehicle has rather prominent mcdonnell douglas and sdio logos on the side there have been several studies looking at the revenue potentials for use of space vehicles for advertising or placing large advertising signs in orbit on the shuttle for example i know of several serious studies in the early and mid s which looked at putting logos on the external tank or on the sides of the payload bay these ventures would be different than public relations in that the logos or displays would not be restricted to the firms participating on that flight and would involve payment of sums for the right to fly the logos in a prominent organization for example painting the et to look like a pepsi can or putting a disneyworld logo on the inside of the payload bay where the cameras would scan past it adverts on launch vehicles the first paid advertising was done on a soviet launcher in about when several non involved foreign organizations were allowed to pay to put their logos on a proton launch an italian shoe company was one of the first advertisers i remember similarly soviet cosmonauts on mir made a paid advertisement for the last olympic games and have gleefully shown banners and other items from participating firms and organizations mars candy bars for example got a plug from orbit as a sponsor of the launch of the british visiting cosmonaut to mir now us firms are starting to put paid advertisements on launch vehicles the upcoming conestoga launch in june putting the comet recoverable payload capsule into orbit will have paid advertisements on the side for arnold schwarzenegger s upcoming movie the last action hero besides the usual logos of the participating organizations columbia pictures has paid to put ads on the main fuselage of the mission s conestoga rocket its booster rockets and on the comet payload which will orbit the earth for one month a concept for this advertising display was published in space news magazine a couple of months ago as a side note robert lorsch an advertising executive is talking about suing nasa he charges nasa with appropriating an idea he created with the space agency in to form corporate advertising sponsorships on nasa spacecraft as a way to get funding for the space program lorsch contends that in selling advertising space on the upcoming comet nasa violated an agreement that it would not use his idea without him being the exclusive representative for nasa and receiving compensation this is being disputed since the launch is a commercial launch and nasa is receiving none of the advertising revenues but the funding for the comet program is coming from nasa orbital billboards orbital billboards have been the staple of science fiction for some time arthur c clarke wrote about one example and robert heinlein described another in the man who sold the moon several different potential projects have been developed although none have been implemented but the most real prior to being the eiffel ii project which would have placed a large inflatable sculpture in orbit to celebrate the french republic s bi centennial cont maximus wb
sci.space	re true globe who makes it in article bill m xpresso uucp bill xpresso uucp bill vance writes it has been known for quite a while that the earth is actually more pear shaped than globular spherical does anyone make a globe that is accurate as to actual shape landmass configuration long lat lines etc i don t think you re going to be able to see the differences from a sphere unless they are greatly exaggerated even the equatorial bulge is only about part in you d never notice a mm error in a cm globe and the other deviations from spherical shape are much smaller svr resembles a high speed collision henry spencer u of toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	bil space race ideas moon base on the cheap that is an idea the most efficient moon habitat also the idea of how to get the people off the moon once the prize was won also the idea of how to rescue someone who is dying on the moon maybe have a area where they can all see each other and can help each other if something happens i liek the idea of one prize for the first moon landing and return by a non governmental body also the idea of then having a moon habitat race i know we need to do somthing to get people involved eccentric millionaire billionaire would be nice we see how old ross feels about it after all it would be a great promotional thing and a way to show he does care about commericalization and the people will try to broach the subject to him moonbase on the cheap is a good idea nasa and friends seem to take to much time and give us to expensive stuff that of late does not work hubble and such basically what is the difference between a mil peice of junk and a multi mil piece of junk i know junk michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked
sci.space	 i like option c of the new space station design it needs some work but it is simple and elegant its about time someone got into simple construction versus overly complex basically just strap some rockets and a nose cone on the habitat and go for it might be an idea for a moon mars base to where is captain eugenia sp when you need it reference to russian heavy lifter i think michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked
sci.space	re jemison on star trek better ideas in article rbp q oai access digex net prb access digex com pat writes in article apr princeton edu phoenix princeton edu carlosn carlos g niederstrasser writes a transporter operator that better be one important transport usually it is a nameless ensign who does the job for such a guest appearance i would have expected a more visible meaningful role christian slater only gota cameo on st and besides maybe she can t act pat better idea for use of nasa shuttle astronauts and crew is have them be found lost in space after a accident with a worm hole or other space time glitch maybe age jemison a few years makeup and such and have her as the only survivour of a failed shuttle mission that got lost heh of late they way they have been having shuttle problems in the media anything can happen imagine a astronaut crew member to find themselves in the th century as the object of interest of an alien civilization maybe rescued or helped by the st enterprise i know vegr and such was okay but this could be better michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked
sci.space	re jemison on star trek better ideas in article apr aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes better idea for use of nasa shuttle astronauts and crew is have them be found lost in space after a accident with a worm hole or other space time glitch maybe age jemison a few years makeup and such and have her as the only survivour of a failed shuttle mission that got lost of course that asumes the mission was able to launch
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters where are they in article radsr att access digex net prb access digex com pat writes what evidence indicates that gamma ray bursters are very far away their distribution is very isotropic and the intensity distribution crudely speaking indicates we re seeing an edge to the distribution given the enormous power i was just wondering what if they are quantum black holes or something like that fairly close by why would they have to be at galactic ranges now in the good old days before gro data it was thought the gamma bursters were neutron stars in the galaxy it was expected that gro would confirm this by either showing they were a local population within a few hundred light years or that they were in the galactic halo mechanism was not known but several plausible ones existed also to be fair it was noted that the brightest burster was probably in the lmc suggesting theorists might be wrong back then as the sun is not at the center of the galaxy a halo population should show anisotropy a local disk population is ruled out completely at this stage to avoid the anisotropy you have to push the halo out the energy then gets large the mechanism of getting ns out that far becomes questionable and we should start to see for example the andromeda s bursters the data is consistent with either a oort cloud distribution but only just but no one can think of a plausible source with the right spectrum or it can be a cosmological distances hence isotropy and the edge is the edge of the universe if at cosmological distances you need very high energy to detect and a very compact source for spectrum ergo a neutron star colliding with another neutron star or black hole even then getting the spectrum is very hard but conceivable if we know anything about physics at that level the bursters are not due to quantum black holes or cosmic strings wrong spectrum for one thing the situation is further complicated by recent claims that there are two classes of sources in the colliding ns they d actually probably fit relatively easily into the ns ns and ns bh collision scenarios respectively my own pet theory is that it s flying saucers entering hyperspace but the reason i am asking is that most everyone assumes that they are colliding nuetron stars or spinning black holes i just wondered if any mechanism could exist and place them closer in if you can think of one remember to invite me to stockholm steinn sigurdsson lick observatory steinly lick ucsc edu standard disclaimer the laws of gravity are very very strict and you re just bending them for your own benefit b b
sci.space	computer cult from tom subject computer cult from scott fri apr received by igc apc org revision id aa fri apr pdt date fri apr pdt message id aa igc apc org from scott weikart scott sender scott to cdplist subject next stand off status r redwood city ca api a tense stand off entered its third week today as authorities reported no progress in negotiations with charismatic cult leader steve jobs negotiators are uncertain of the situation inside the compound but some reports suggest that half of the hundreds of followers inside have been terminated others claim to be staying of their own free will but jobs persuasive manner makes this hard to confirm in conversations with authorities jobs has given conflicting information on how heavily prepared the group is for war with the industry at times he has claimed to have hardware which will blow anything else away while more recently he claims they have stopped manufacturing their own agents from the atf apple taligent forces believe that the group is equipped with serious hardware including caliber pieces and possibly canon equipment the siege has attracted a variety of spectators from the curious to other cultists some have offered to intercede in negotiations including a young man who will identify himself only as bill and claims to be the ms iah former members of the cult some only recently deprogrammed speak hesitantly of their former lives including being forced to work hour days and subsisting on jolt and twinkies there were frequent lectures in which they were indoctrinated into a theory of interpersonal computing which rejects traditional roles late night vigils on chesapeake drive are taking their toll on federal marshals loud rock and roll mostly talking heads blares throughout the night some fear that jobs will fulfill his own apocalyptic prophecies a worry reinforced when the loudspeakers carry jobs own speeches typically beginning with a chilling i want to welcome you to the next world roland j schemers iii networking systems systems programmer g redwood hall distributed computing group stanford ca stanford university schemers slapshot stanford edu
sci.space	order moore s book to restore great telescope several people have enquired about the availability of the book about the great reflector built at birr castle ireland in which remained the largest in the world until the the start of the th century the astronomy of birr castle was written by patrick moore who now sits on the committee which is going to restore the telescope the remains are on public display all year round the massive support walls the foot long tube and other bits and pieces this book is the definitivie history of how one man the third earl of rosse pulled off the most impressive technical achievement perhaps ever in the history of the telescope and the discoveries made with the instrument patrick moore is donating all proceeds from the book s sale to help restore the telescope astronomy ireland is making the book available world wide by mail order it s a fascinating read and by ordering a copy you bring the day when we can all look through it once again that little bit nearer ordering information the astronomy of birr castle dr patrick moore xii pp mm x mm price u s us us post packing add airmail u k pounds sterling post packing europe pounds sterling post and packing rest of world as per u s but funds payable in us only payment make all payments to astronomy ireland credit card mastercard visa eurocard access accepted by email or snail mail give card number name address expiration date and total amount payments otherwise must be by money order or bank draft send to our permanent address p o box dublin ireland you can also subscribe to astronomy space at the same time see below tony ryan astronomy space new international magazine available from astronomy ireland p o box dublin ireland issues one year sub uk pounds us surface add us airmail access visa mastercard accepted give number expiration date name address world s largest astro soc per capita unless you know better tel uk n ireland eire cost up to p per min
sci.space	re potential world bearing stars in article c dz c j e visix com dan visix com daniel appelquist writes i m on a fact finding mission trying to find out if there exists a list of potentially world bearing stars within light years of the sun is anyone currently working on this sort of thing thanks dan in principle any star resembling the sun mass luminosity might have planets located in a suitable orbit there several within ly of the sun they are single stars for double or multiple systems might be troublesome there s a list located at ames arc nasa gov somewhere in pub space i think it is called stars dat by the way what kind of project if i may know rui infinity is at hand rui sousa if yours is big enough grab it ruca saber si pt all opinions expressed here are strictly my own
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky in article c y t w news cso uiuc edu gfk uxa cso uiuc edu george f krumins writes it is so typical that the rights of the minority are extinguished by the wants of the majority no matter how ridiculous those wants might be george it s called a democracy the majority rules sorry if ytou don t like it i suggest you modify the constitution to include a constitutional right to dark skies the theory of government here is that the majority rules except in the nature of fundamental civil rights if you really are annoyed get some legislation to create a dark sky zone where in all light emissions are protected in the zone kind of like the national radio quiet zone did you know about that near teh radio telescope observatory in west virginia they have a mile emcon zone theoretically they can prevent you from running light ac motors like air conditioners and vacuums in practice they use it mostly to control large radio users pat
sci.space	re space advertising of wales larrison ofa fidonet org writes the environmental billboard is a large inflatable outer support structure of up to x meters advertising is carried by a mylar reflective area deployed by the inflatable frame to help sell the concept the spacecraft responsible for maintaining the billboard on orbit will carry ozone reading sensors to continuously monitor the condition of the earth s delicate protective ozone layer according to mike lawson head of smi furthermore the inflatable billboard has reached its minimum exposure of days it will be released to re enter the earth s atmosphere according to imi as the biodegradable material burns it will release ozone building components that will literally replenish the ozone layer can we assume that this guy studied advertising and not chemistry granted it probably a great advertising gimic but it doesn t sound at all practical josh hopkins jbh uxa cso uiuc edu find a way or make one attributed to hannibal
sci.space	space station redesign option c in article apr aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes i like option c of the new space station design it needs some work but it is simple and elegant its about time someone got into simple construction versus overly complex basically just strap some rockets and a nose cone on the habitat and go for it might be an idea for a moon mars base to where is captain eugenia sp when you need it reference to russian heavy lifter i think michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked this is a report i got the subject messed up
sci.space	nasa special publications for voyager mission i have two books both nasa special publications on the voyager missions one is titled voyages to jupiter the other voyage to saturn these were excellent books put together after the encounters with each planet the question is did nasa ever put together a similar book for either the uranus encounter or neptune if so what sp number is it and where can it be obtained if not why didn t they gene theporch raider net gene wright theporch raider net the macinteresteds of nashville
sci.space	re sunrise sunset times in article apr cbis ece drexel edu jpw cbis ece drexel edu joseph wetstein asked hello i am looking for a program or algorithm that can be used to compute sunrise and sunset times i would appreciate any advice joe wetstein jpw coe drexel edu to compute this and many other astronomical things go and get x ephem written by elwood c downey it is e g on export lcs mit edu uwe bonnes bon lte e technik uni erlangen de
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky in c y t w news cso uiuc edu george f krumins writes it is so typical that the rights of the minority are extinguished by the wants of the majority no matter how ridiculous those wants might be umm perhaps you could explain what rights we are talking about here greg nicholls vidi nicho vnet ibm com or vici nicho olympus demon co uk veni
sci.space	conference on manned lunar exploration may crystal city reply address mark prado permanet org from higgins fnalf fnal gov bill higgins beam jockey in article apr aio jsc nasa gov daviss sweetpea jsc nasa gov s f davis writes aw st had a brief blurb on a manned lunar exploration confernce may th at crystal city virginia under the auspices of aiaa thanks for typing that in steven i hope you decide to go pat the net can use some eyes and ears there i plan to go it s about minutes away from my home i can report on some of it from my perspective anyone else on sci space going to be there if so send me netmail maybe we can plan to cross paths briefly i ll maintain a list of who s going mark prado permanet org origin just send it to bill clinton permanet org
sci.space	re drag free satellites in article raee b s access digex net prb access digex com pat writes in article apr kelvin jpl nasa gov baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov ron baalke writes in answer to a question from hawking chahine described a proposed drag free satellite but confirmed that at this point it s only a concept so what s a drag free satellite coated with wd triad the first drag free satellite was designed and built by the johns hopkins applied physics laboratory and launched sept the satellite was in three sections separated by two booms the central section housed the discos disturbance compensation system which consisted of a proof mass of special non magnetic alloy housed within a spherical cavity the proof mass flew a true gravitational orbit free from drag and radiation pressure teflon microthrusters kept the body of the satellite centered around the proof mass thereby flying the entire satellite drag free triad was one of the apl designed navy navigation satellites the nd generation operational navigation satellites flying today nova use a single axis version of discos triad was also the sixth apl satellite to be powered by an rtg apl flew the first nuclear power supply in space in further info on triad discos etc can be found in spacecraft design innovations in the apl space department johns hopkins apl technical digest vol no eric hoffman
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters where are they if all of these things have been detected in space has anyone looked into possible problems with the detectors that is is there some mechanism cosmic rays whatever that could cause the dector to think it was seeing one of these things graydon
sci.space	re space advertising of as for sf and advertising in space there is a romantic episode in mead s the big ball of wax where the lovers are watching the constellation pepsi cola rising over the horizon and noting the some stars had slipped cause the teamsters were on strike this was the inspiration for my article on orbiting a formation of space mirrors published in spaceflight in as the reviews said this seems technically feasible and could be commercially viable but is it aesthetically desirable these days the only aesthetics that count are the ones you can count dave stephenson geological survey of canada ottawa ontario canada internet stephens geod emr ca
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters where are they from graydon saundrsg qucdn queensu ca if all of these things have been detected in space has anyone looked into possible problems with the detectors that is is there some mechanism cosmic rays whatever that could cause the dector to think it was seeing one of these things graydon that would not explain why widely separated detectors such as on ulysses and pvo and ginga et al would see a burst at the same time in fact be fore batse having this widely separated interplanetary network was the only sure way to locate a random burst with only one detector one cannot locate a burst except to say it s somewhere in the field of view with two detectors one can use the time that the burst is seen in each detector to narrow the location to a thin annulus on the sky with three detectors one gets intersecting annuli giving two possible locations if one of these locations is impossible because say the earth blocked that part of the sky voila you have an error box batse by having detectors of its own can do its own location determination but only to within about degrees would someone at gsfc like david like to comment on the current state of location determination having inde pendent sightings by other detectors helps drive down the uncertainty you did touch on something that you didn t mean to though some believe in a reference that i have somewhere that absorption like features seen in a fraction of grbs can actually be caused by the detector it would be a mean nasty god though that would have a nai crystal act like a gauss neutron star but this is getting too far afield peter peterf oddjob uchicago edu
sci.space	re level in apr fnalf fnal gov bill higgins beam jockey writes in article almaden ibm com wingert vnet ibm com bret wingert writes the onboard flight software project was rated level by a nasa team this group generates kslocs of verified code per year for nasa will someone tell an ignorant physicist where the term level comes from it sounds like the risks digest equivalent of large extra large jumbo or maybe it s like defcon i gather it means that shuttle software was developed with extreme care to have reliablility and safety and almost everything else in the computing world is level or cheesy dime store software not surprising but who is it that invents this standard and how come everyone but me seems to be familiar with it level refers to the carnegie mellon software engineering institute s capability maturity model this model rates software development org s from with being chaotic and being optimizing dod is beginning to use this rating system as a discriminator in contracts i have more data on thifrom page to i have a page presentation that summarizes it wethat i could fax to you if you re interested bret wingert wingert vnet ibm com fax
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters where are they if gamma ray bursters are extragalactic would absorption from the galaxy be expected how transparent is the galactic core to gamma rays how much energy does a burster put out i know energy depends on distance which is unknown an answer of the form x ergs per megaparsec is ok john carr jfc athena mit edu
sci.space	re space station redesign jsc alternative kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov hey that s me wrote i have mb worth uuencode d gif images contain charts outlining one of the many alternative space station designs being considered in crystal city i just posted the gif files out for anonymous ftp on server ics uci edu you can retrieve them from ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geodea gif ics uci edu incoming geodeb gif the last two are scanned color photos the others are scanned briefing charts these will be deleted by the ics uci edu system manager in a few days so now s the time to grab them if you re interested sorry it took me so long to get these out but i was trying for the ames server but it s out of space ken jenks nasa jsc gm space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov the earth is the cradle of humanity but mankind will not stay in the cradle forever konstantin tsiolkvosky
sci.space	re hst servicing mission in article rd g ckb access digex net prb access digex com pat writes somebody mentioned a re boost of hst during this mission meaning that weight is a very tight margin on this mission i haven t heard any hint of a re boost or that any is needed why not grapple do all said fixes bolt a small liquid fueled thruster module to hst then let it make the re boost it has to be cheaper on mass then usingthe shuttle as a tug nasty dirty combustion products people have gone to monumental efforts to keep hst clean we certainly aren t going to bolt any thrusters to it ben
sci.space	re what counntries do space surveillance i can tell you that when amsat launched some birds along a spot satellite french that during installation of some instruments on spot there heavily armed legionaires who had a take no prisoners look on there faces spot satellites are completely capable of doing some very good on orbit surveillance bmc robert w mcgwier n hy ccr p ida org center for communications research interests amateur radio astronomy golf princeton n j asst scoutmaster troop hightstown
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky nicho vnet ibm com greg stewart nicholls writes in c y t w news cso uiuc edu george f krumins writes it is so typical that the rights of the minority are extinguished by the wants of the majority no matter how ridiculous those wants might be umm perhaps you could explain what rights we are talking about here greg nicholls vidi nicho vnet ibm com or vici nicho olympus demon co uk veni i was suggesting that the minority of professional and amateur astronomers have the right to a dark uncluttered night sky let me give you an example when you watch tv they have commercials to pay for the programming you accept that as part of watching if you don t like it you can turn it off if you want to view the night sky and there is a floating billboard out there you can t turn it off it s the same reasoning that limits billboards in scenic areas pat writes george it s called a democracy the majority rules sorry if ytou don t like it i suggest you modify the constitution to include a constitutional right to dark skies the theory of government here is that the majority rules except in the nature of fundamental civil rights i say any reasonably in depth perusal of american history will show you that many wasps have continued the practices of prejudice discrimination and violence against others of different races religions and beliefs despite the law pat says if you really are annoyed get some legislation to create a dark sky zone where in all light emissions are protected in the zone kind of like the national radio quiet zone did you know about that near teh radio telescope observatory in west virginia they have a mile emcon zone theoretically they can prevent you from running light ac motors like air conditioners and vacuums in practice they use it mostly to control large radio users i say what i m objecting to here is a floating billboard that presumably would move around in the sky i for one am against legislating at all i just wish that people had a bit of common courtesy and would consider how their greed for money impacts the more ethereal and aesthetic values that make us human this includes the need for wild and unspoiled things including the night sky george george krumins the serpent and the rainbow gfk uxa cso uiuc edu pufferish observatory o
sci.space	re vandalizing the sky in article pgf srl cacs usl edu pgf srl cacs usl edu phil g fraering writes jeff cook ftcollinsco ncr com jeff cook writes people in primitive tribes out in the middle of nowhere as they look up and see a can of budweiser flying across the sky d seen that movie already or one just like it come to think of it they might send someone on a quest to get rid of the dang thing actually the idea like most good ideas comes from jules verne not the gods must be crazy in one of his lesser known books i can t remember which one right now the protagonists are in a balloon gondola travelling over africa on their way around the world in the balloon when one of them drops a fob watch they then speculate about the reaction of the natives to finding such a thing dropped straight down from heaven but the notion is not pursued further than that scott new sig under construction scott i chase please be patient sichase csa lbl gov thank you
sci.space	i want that billion in article c x o p zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes in article r rn innn mojo eng umd edu sysmgr king eng umd edu writes you d need to launch hlvs to send up large amounts of stuff do you know of a private titan pad you d need to launch hlvs to send up large amounts of stuff if you assume no new launcher development if you assume new launcher development with lower costs as a specific objective then you probably don t want to build something hlv sized anyway nobody who is interested in launching things cheaply will buy titans it doesn t take many titan pricetags to pay for a laser launcher or a large gas gun or a development program for a big dumb booster all of which would have far better cost effectiveness henry i made the assumption that he who gets there firstest with the mostest wins ohhh you want to put in fine print which says thou shall do wonderous r d rather than use off the shelf hardware sorry didn t see that in my copy most of the pournellesque proposals run along the lines of some dollar amount reward for some simple goal you go ahead and do your development i ll buy off the shelf at higher cost or even russian but i also assume that there d be some buy us provos in there and be camped out in the moon while you are launching and assembling little itty bitty payloads in leo with your laser or gas gun and working out the bugs of assembly integration in leo oh hey could i get a couple of canadarms tuned for the lunar environment i wanna do some teleoperated prospecting while i m up there software engineering that s like military intelligence isn t it sysmgr cadlab eng umd edu
sci.space	re keeping spacecraft on after funding cuts in article r aqr dnv access digex net prb access pat writes voyager has the unusual luck to be on a stable trajectory out of the solar system all it s doing is collecting fields data and routinely squirting it down one of the mariners is also in stable solar orbit and still providing similiar solar data there are no mariner craft from which we are still receiving data i believe you are referring to one or more of pioneers through launched from december through november which were put into solar orbits to study interplanetary space i recall reading that at least one of them was still functioning years after launch chris jones clj ksr com
sci.space	remote sensing data i am posting this for someone else please respond to the address listed below please also excuse the duplication as this message has been crossposted thanks request for ideas for applications of remote sensing databases via the internet nasa is planning to expand the domain of users of its earth and space science data this effort will o use the evolving infrastructure of the u s global change research program including the mission to planet earth mtpe and the earth observing system data and information system eosdis programs o use the internet particularly the high performance computing and communications program s nren national research and education network as a means of providing access to and distribution of science data and images and value added products o provide broad access to and utilization of remotely sensed images in cooperation with other agencies especially noaa epa doe ded doi usgs and usda o support remote sensing image and data users and development communities the user and development communities to be included but not limited to as part of this effort are educators commercial application developers e g television weather forecasters librarians publishers agriculture specialists transportation forestry state and local government planners and aqua business this program will be initiated in your assistance is requested to identify potential applications of remote sensing images and data we would like your ideas for potential application areas to assist with development of the implementation plan please note this is not a request for proposals we are seeking your ideas in these areas potential commercial use of remote sensing data and images potential noncommercial use of remote sensing data and images in education especially levels k and other noncommercial areas types of on line capabilities and protocols to make the data more accessible additional points of contacts for ideas and addresses and names from whom to request proposals for your convenience a standard format for responses is included below feel free to amend it as necessary either e mail or fax your responses to us by may e mail on internet rsdwg orion ossa hq nasa gov ascii no binary attachments please fax ernie lucier c o rsdwg nasa hq fax survey responses in the following formats may also be placed in the ftp directory ftp pub rsdwg on orion nasa gov please indicate the format acceptable formats are word for windows x macintosh word x and x and rtf response format request for ideas for applications of remote sensing databases via the internet potential commercial use of remote sensing data and images if possible identify the relevant types of data or science products user tools and standards uses of remote sensing data and images in education especially levels k and other noncommercial areas if possible identify the relevant types of data or science products user tools and standards types of on line capabilities and protocols to make the data and images more accessible if possible identify relevant types of formats standards and user tools additional suggested persons or organizations that may be resources for further ideas on applications areas please include name organization address and telephone number organizations mailing lists electronic and paper periodicals etc to whom a solicitation for proposals should be sent when developed please include name organization address and telephone number we would benefit from knowing why users that know about nasa remote sensing data do not use the data is it because they do not have ties to nasa investigators or high cost lack of accessibility incompatible data formats poor area of interest coverage inadequate spatial or spectral resolution in case we have questions please send us your name address phone number and e mail address if you have one if you don t wish to send us this information feel free to respond to the survey anonymously thank you for your assistance
sci.space	larsonian astronomy and physics larsonian astronomy and physics orthodox physicists astronomers and astrophysicists claim to be looking for a unified field theory in which all of the forces of the universe can be explained with a single set of laws or equations but they have been systematically ignoring or suppressing an excellent one for years the late physicist dewey b larson s comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe which he calls the reciprocal system is built on two fundamental postulates about the physical and mathematical natures of space and time the physical universe is composed entirely of one component motion existing in three dimensions in discrete units and in two reciprocal forms space and time the physical universe conforms to the relations of ordinary commutative mathematics its magnitudes are absolute and its geometry is euclidean from these two postulates larson developed a complete theoretical universe using various combinations of translational vibrational rotational and vibrational rotational motions the concepts of in ward and out ward scalar motions and speeds in relation to the speed of light which larson called unit velocity and the natural datum at each step in the development larson was able to match objects in his theoretical universe with objects in the real physical universe photons sub atomic particles incomplete atoms charges atoms molecules globular star clusters galaxies binary star systems solar systems white dwarf stars pulsars quasars etc even objects not yet discovered then such as exploding galaxies and gamma ray bursts and applying his theory to his new model of the atom larson was able to precisely and accurately calculate inter atomic distances in crystals and molecules compressibility and thermal expansion of solids and other properties of matter all of this is described in good detail with out fancy complex mathematics in his books books of dewey b larson the following is a complete list of the late physicist dewey b larson s books about his comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe some of the early books are out of print now but still available through inter library loan the structure of the physical universe the case against the nuclear atom beyond newton new light on space and time quasars and pulsars nothing but motion a substitute for the billion super collider the last four chapters explain chemical bonding the neglected facts of science the universe of motion final solutions to most all astrophysical mysteries basic properties of matter all but the last of these books were published by north pacific publishers p o box portland or and should be available via inter library loan if your local university or public library doesn t have each of them several of them including the last one are available from the international society of unified science isus e atkin ave salt lake city utah this is the organization that was started to promote larson s theory they have other related publications including the quarterly journal reciprocity physicist dewey b larson s background physicist dewey b larson was a retired engineer chemical or electrical he was about years old when he died in may he had a bachelor of science degree in engineering science from oregon state university he developed his comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe while trying to develop a way to compute chemical properties based only on the elements used larson s lack of a fancy ph d degree might be one reason that orthodox physicists are ignoring him but it is not a valid reason sometimes it takes a relative outsider to clearly see the forest through the trees at the same time it is clear from his books that he also knew orthodox physics and astronomy as well as any physicist or astronomer well enough to point out all their contradictions ad hoc assumptions principles of impotence in consistencies etc larson did not have the funds etc to experimentally test his theory and it was not necessary for him to do so he simply compared the various parts of his theory with other researchers experimental and observational data and in many cases his explanation fit better a self consistent theory is much more than the orthodox physicists and astronomers have they claim to be looking for a unified field theory that works but have been ignoring one for over years now modern physics does not explain the physical universe so well some parts of some of larson s books are full of quotations of leading orthodox physicists and astronomers who agree and remember that epicycles crystal spheres geocentricity flat earth theory etc also once seemed to explain it well but were later proved conceptually wrong prof frank h meyer professor emeritus of uw superior was is a strong proponent of larson s theory and was or still is president of larson s organization the international society of unified science and editor of their quarterly journal reciprocity he moved to minneapolis after retiring super collider boondoggle i am against contruction of the superconducting super collider in texas or anywhere else it would be a gross waste of money and contribute almost nothing of scientific value most physicists don t realize it but according to the comprehensive general unified theory of the late physicist dewey b larson as described in his books the strange goofy particles mesons hyperons alleged quarks etc which they are finding in existing colliders fermi lab cern etc are really just atoms of anti matter which are created by the high energy colliding beams and which quickly disintegrate like cosmic rays because they are incompatible with their environment a larger and more expensive collider will only create a few more elements of anti matter that the physicists have not seen there before and the physicists will be even more confused than they are now are a few more types of anti matter atoms worth the billion cost don t we have much more important uses for this wasted money another thing to consider is that the primary proposed location in texas has a serious and growing problem with some kind of fire ants eating the insulation off underground cables how much poisoning of the ground and ground water with insecticides will be required to keep the ants out of the supercollider naming the super collider after ronald reagon as proposed is totally absurd if it is built it should be named after a leading particle physicist larsonian anti matter in larson s comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe anti matter is not a simple case of opposite charges of the same types of particles it has more to do with the rates of vibrations and rotations of the photons of which they are made in relation to the vibrational and rotational equivalents of the speed of light which larson calls unit velocity and the natural datum in larson s theory a positron is actually a particle of matter not anti matter when a positron and electron meet the rotational vibrations charges and rotations of their respective photons of which they are made neutralize each other in larson s theory the anti matter half of the physical universe has three dimensions of time and only one dimension of space and exists in a reciprocal relationship to our material half larsonian relativity the perihelion point in the orbit of the planet mercury has been observed and precisely measured to advance at the rate of seconds of arc per century seconds of this advance are attributed via calculations to gravitational perturbations from the other planets venus earth jupiter etc the remaining seconds of arc are being used to help prove einstein s general theory of relativity but the late physicist dewey b larson achieved results closer to the seconds than general relativity can by instead using special relativity in one or more of his books he applied the lorentz transformation on the high orbital speed of mercury larson totally rejected general relativity as another mathematical fantasy he also rejected most of special relativity including the parts about mass increases near the speed of light and the use of the lorentz transform on doppler shifts those quasars with red shifts greater than really are moving faster than the speed of light although most of that motion is away from us in time in larson s comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe there are three dimensions of time instead of only one but two of those dimensions can not be measured from our material half of the physical universe the one dimension that we can measure is the clock time at low relative speeds the values of the other two dimensions are negligible but at high speeds they become significant and the lorentz transformation must be used as a fudge factor larson often used the term coordinate time when writing about this in regard to mass increases it has been proven in atomic accelerators that acceleration drops toward zero near the speed of light but the formula for acceleration is acceleration force mass a f m orthodox physicists are ignoring the third factor force in larson s theory mass stays constant and force drops toward zero force is actually a motion or combinations of motions or relations between motions including inward and outward scalar motions the expansion of the universe for example is an outward scalar motion inherent in the universe and not a result of the so called big bang which is yet another mathematical fantasy the universe of motion i wish to recommend to everyone the book the universe of motion by dewey b larson north pacific publishers p o box portland oregon pages indexed hardcover it contains the astrophysical portions of a general unified theory of the physical universe developed by that author an unrecognized genius more than thirty years ago it contains final solutions to most all astrophysical mysteries including the formation of galaxies binary and multiple star systems and solar systems the true origin of the degree background radiation cosmic rays and gamma ray bursts and the true nature of quasars pulsars white dwarfs exploding galaxies etc it contains what astronomers and astrophysicists are all looking for if they are ready to seriously consider it with open minds the following is an example of his theory s success in his first book in the structure of the physical universe larson predicted the existence of exploding galaxies several years before astronomers started finding them they are a necessary consequence of larson s comprehensive theory and when quasars were discovered he had an immediate related explanation for them also gamma ray bursts astro physicists and astronomers are still scratching their heads about the mysterious gamma ray bursts they were originally thought to originate from neutron stars in the disc of our galaxy but the new gamma ray telescope now in earth orbit has been detecting them in all directions uniformly and their source locations in space do not correspond to any known objects except for a few cases of directional coincidence gamma ray bursts are a necessary consequence of the general unified theory of the physical universe developed by the late physicist dewey b larson according to page of his book the universe of motion published in the gamma ray bursts are coming from supernova explosions in the anti matter half of the physical universe which larson calls the cosmic sector because of the relationship between the anti matter and material halves of the physical universe and the way they are connected together the gamma ray bursts can pop into our material half anywhere in space seemingly at random this is why the source locations of the bursts do not correspond with known objects and come from all directions uniformly i wonder how close to us in space a source location would have to be for a gamma ray burst to kill all or most life on earth there would be no way to predict one nor to stop it perhaps some of the mass extinctions of the past which are now being blamed on impacts of comets and asteroids were actually caused by nearby gamma ray bursts larsonian binary star formation about half of all the stars in the galaxy in the vicinity of the sun are binary or double but orthodox astronomers and astrophysicists still have no satisfactory theory about how they form or why there are so many of them but binary star systems are actually a likely consequence of the comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe developed by the late physicist dewey b larson i will try to summarize larsons explanation which is detailed in chapter of his book the universe of motion and in some of his other books first of all according to larson stars do not generate energy by fusion a small fraction comes from slow gravitational collapse the rest results from the complete annihilation of heavy elements heavier than iron each element has a destructive temperature limit the heavier the element is the lower is this limit a star s internal temperature increases as it grows in mass via accretion and absorption of the decay products of cosmic rays gradually reaching the destructive temperature limit of lighter and lighter elements when the internal temperature of the star reaches the destructive temperature limit of iron there is a type i supernova explosion this is because there is so much iron present and that is related to the structure of iron atoms and the atom building process which larson explains in some of his books better than i can when the star explodes the lighter material on the outer portion of the star is blown outward in space at less than the speed of light the heavier material in the center portion of the star was already bouncing around at close to the speed of light because of the high temperature the explosion pushes that material over the speed of light and it expands outward in time which is equivalent to inward in space and it often actually disappears for a while over long periods of time both masses start to fall back gravitationally the material that had been blown outward in space now starts to form a red giant star the material that had been blown outward in time starts to form a white dwarf star both stars then start moving back toward the main sequence from opposite directions on the h r diagram the chances of the two masses falling back into the exact same location in space making a single lone star again are near zero they will instead form a binary system orbiting each other according to larson a white dwarf star has an inverse density gradient is densest at its surface because the material at its center is most widely dispersed blown outward in time this eliminates the need to resort to mathematical fantasies about degenerate matter neutron stars black holes etc larsonian solar system formation if the mass of the heavy material at the center of the exploding star is relatively small then instead of a single white dwarf star there will be several mini white dwarf stars revolving around the red giant star but probably still too far away in three dimensional time to be affected by its heat etc these will become planets in chapter of the universe of motion larson used all this information and other principles of his comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe to derive his own version of bode s law black hole fantasy i heard that physicist stephen w hawking recently completed a theoretical mathematical analysis of two black holes merging together into a single black hole and concluded that the new black hole would have more mass than the sum of the two original black holes such a result should be recognized by everyone as a red flag causing widespread doubt about the whole idea of black holes etc after reading physicist dewey b larson s books about his comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe especially his book the universe of motion it is clear to me that black holes are nothing more than mathematical fantasies the strange object at cygnus x is just an unusually massive white dwarf star not the black hole that orthodox astronomers and physicists so badly want to prove their theory by the way i do not understand why so much publicity is being given to physicist stephen hawking the physicists and astronomers seem to be acting as if hawking s severe physical problem somehow makes him wiser it does not i wish the same attention had been given to physicist dewey b larson while he was still alive widespread publicity and attention should now be given to larson s theory books and organization the international society of unified science electro magnetic propulsion i heard of that concept many years ago in connection with ufo s and unorthodox inventors but i never was able to find out how or why they work or how they are constructed i found a possible clue about why they might work on pages of the book basic properties of matter by the late physicist dewey b larson which describes part of larson s comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe i quote one paragraph as indicated in the preceding chapter the development of the theory of the universe of motion arrives at a totally different concept of the nature of electrical resistance the electrons we find are derived from the environment it was brought out in volume i larson s book nothing but motion that there are physical processes in operation which produce electrons in substantial quantities and that although the motions that constitute these electrons are in many cases absorbed by atomic structures the opportunities for utilizing this type of motion in such structures are limited it follows that there is always a large excess of free electrons in the material sector material half of the universe most of which are uncharged in this uncharged state the electrons cannot move with respect to extension space because they are inherently rotating units of space and the relation of space to space is not motion in open space therefore each uncharged electron remains permanently in the same location with respect to the natural reference system in the manner of a photon in the context of the stationary spatial reference system the uncharged electron like the photon is carried outward at the speed of light by the progression of the natural reference system all material aggregates are thus exposed to a flux of electrons similar to the continual bombardment by photons of radiation meanwhile there are other processes to be discussed later whereby electrons are returned to the environment the electron population of a material aggregate such as the earth therefore stabilizes at an equilibrium level note that in larson s theory uncharged electrons are also massless and are basically photons of light of a particular frequency above the unit frequency spinning around one axis at a particular rate below the unit rate unit velocity is the speed of light and there are vibrational and rotational equivalents to the speed of light according to larson s theory i might have the above and below labels mixed up larson is saying that outer space is filled with mass less un charged electrons flying around at the speed of light if this is true then the electro magnetic propulsion fields of spacecraft might be able to interact with these electrons or other particles in space perhaps giving them a charge and mass and shooting them toward the rear to achieve propulsion in larson s theory an electrical charge is a one dimensional rotational vibration of a particular frequency above the unit frequency superimposed on the rotation of the particle the paragraph quoted above might also give a clue to confused meteorologists about how and why lightning is generated in clouds suppression of larsonian physics the comprehensive general unified theory of the physical universe developed by the late physicist dewey b larson has been available for more than years published in in his first book the structure of the physical universe it is totally un scientific for hawking wheeler sagan and the other sacred priests of the religion they call science or physics or astronomy etc as well as the scientific literature and the education systems to totally ignore larson s theory has they have larson s theory has excellent explanations for many things now puzzling orthodox physicists and astronomers such as gamma ray bursts and the nature of quasars larson s theory deserves to be honestly and openly discussed in the physics chemistry and astronomy journals in the u s and elsewhere and at least the basic principles of larson s theory should be included in all related courses at uw ec uw madison cambridge cornell university and elsewhere so that students are not kept in the dark about a worthy alternative to the dogma they are being fed for more information answers to your questions etc please consult my cited sources especially larson s books un altered reproduction and dissemination of this important partial summary is encouraged robert e mcelwaine b s physics and astronomy uw ec
sci.space	re boom whoosh david fuzzy wells wdwells nyx cs du edu wrote i love the idea of an inflatable mile long sign it will be a really neat thing to see it explode when a bolt or even better a westford needle comes crashing into it at clicks a sec boom whooooooooshhhhhh sputter sputter okay pretend it would make a sound just a thought let s pretend it is inflated and pressurized wouldn t there be a large static electricity build up around the puncture if the metalization is behind a clear sandwich ie insulated then the deflating balloon would generate electrical interference noise by the way any serious high velocity impact would simply cut a bugs bunny hole through the wall highly unlikely to boom and the fabric would almost certainly be ripstop regards robin kenny a private and personal opinion not in any way endorsed authorised or known by my employers what the heck would i know about space i m stuck at the bottom of this huge gravity well
sci.space	nasa ames server was re space station redesign jsc alternative in article apr aio jsc nasa gov kjenks jsc nasa gov ken jenks nasa writes i just posted the gif files out for anonymous ftp on server ics uci edu sorry it took me so long to get these out but i was trying for the ames server but it s out of space how ironic bill higgins beam jockey treat your password like fermi national accelerator laboratory your toothbrush don t let bitnet higgins fnal bitnet anybody else use it internet higgins fnal fnal gov and get a new one every span hepnet higgins six months cliff stoll
sci.space	re command loss timer re galileo update alan carter writes on april a no op command was sent to reset the command loss timer to hours its planned value during this mission phase this activity is regularly reported in ron s interesting posts could someone explain what the command loss timer is the name is rather descriptive it s a command to the spacecraft that tells it if you don t hear from earth after hours assume something is wrong with your the spacecraft attitude and go into a preprogrammed search mode in an attempt to reacquire the signal from earth the spacecraft and earth are not in constant communication with each other earth monitors the telemetry from the spacecraft and if everything is fine there s no reason to send it any new information but from the spacecraft s point of view no information from earth could mean either everything is fine or that the spacecraft has lost signal acquisition just how long should the spacecraft wait before it decides that something is wrong and begins to take corrective action that how long is the command loss timer during relatively inactive cruise phases the command loss timer can be set to rather long values in this case earth is telling galileo expect to hear back from us sometime within the next hours
sci.space	re gamma ray bursters where are they i assume that can only be guessed at by the assumed energy of the event and the r law so if the r law is incorrect assume some unknown material dark matter inhibits gamma ray propagation could it be possible that we are actually seeing much less energetic events happening much closer to us the even distribution could be caused by the characteristic propagation distance of gamma rays being shorter then the thickness of the disk of the galaxy just some idle babbling jim batka work email batkaj ccmail dayton saic com elvis is home email jbatka desire wright edu dead years is minutes and a minute is a long time beatles yellow submarine
sci.space	re life on mars in article apr aio jsc nasa gov kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov writes i know it s only wishful thinking with our current president but this is from last fall is there life on mars maybe not now but there will be daniel s goldin nasa administrator august ken jenks nasa jsc gm space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov lets hear it for dan goldin now if he can only convince the rest of our federal government that the space program is a worth while investment i hope that i will live to see the day we walk on mars but we need to address the technical hurdles first if there s sufficient interest maybe we should consider starting a sci space group devoted to the technical analysis of long duration human spaceflight most of you regulars know that i m interested in starting this analysis as soon as possible ken khayash hsc usc edu usc school of medicine class of
sci.space	re what counntries do space surveillance the european space agency has involvement with remote earth observation and i presume this includes surveillance optical etc so it s not just the us ussr ex who are in the game but what is the game what can be done with space observation the military functions of missile spotting troop spotting etc are well documented but what about anything else the biggest eg i can think of is to get a metal sensing sat over a paying country and scan their territory for precious metals more importantly if radar can spot water vapour clouds presumably a radar based sat will be capable of spotting rivers open water and underground water from space this would be a positive life saver for african or other drought affected countries implementing a clean water and irrigation program would be of imense benifit to such countries and should cut down mortalities considerably so how about it is there a charity or government agency that would pay for a third world country to have their minerals and water deposits mapped or is this still sci fi mail replies would be great thought for the day thermal energy needs water to make steam so sstick it in the ocean marvin batty djf uk ac cov cck and they shall not find those things with a sort of rafia like base that their fathers put there just the night before at about o clock
sci.space	why not give billion to first year lo original to keithley apple com g day keithley apple com apr keithley apple com wrote to all kc keithley apple com craig keithley via kralizec kc but back to the contest goals there was a recent article in aw st about a kc low cost it s all relative manned return to the moon a general kc dynamics scheme involving a titan iv shuttle to lift a centaur upper kc stage lev and crew capsule the mission consists of delivering two kc unmanned payloads to the lunar surface followed by a manned mission kc total cost us was billion joint esa nasa project was kc billion for the us share kc moon for a year hmmm not really practical anyone got a kc cheaper better way of delivering tonnes to the lunar surface within kc the decade anyone have a more precise guess about how much a year s kc supply of consumables and equipment would weigh why not modify the gd plan into zurbrin s compact moon direct scheme let one of those early flight carry an o plant and make your own ta ralph golded origin vulcan s world sydney australia
soc.religion.christian	re sex education in article mar athos rutgers edu swansond nextnet ccs csus edu dennis swanson writes in article mar athos rutgers edu heath athena cs uga edu terrance heath writes when i do programs i spend about half the time talking about absitinence i find that most people who object to sex education actually object to the teaching anything other than abstinencne and that imo is just as irresponsible as only talking about comdom use i m under the impression that most sex ed instructors and or policy makers actually object to making any more than a passing reference to abstinence wishing to spend time only on the realistic choices in the sex ed portion of the high school health course i took in it was impressed that the only positive way to not get pregnant was to not have sex other methods of contraception were discussed in the framework of a chart which showed both the expected failure rate theoretical assumes no mistakes and the actual failure rate based on research top of the chart was something like this method expected actual failure rate failure rate abstinence and nfp natural family planning was on the bottom the teacher even said i ve had some students tell me that they can t use anything for birth control because they re catholic well if you re not married and you re a practicing catholic the top of the list is your slot not the bottom even if you re not religious the top of the list is safest yes this was a public school and after dr koop s failing abstinence use a condom statement on the prevention of aids jen include stdisclaimer jenk microsoft com msdos testing
soc.religion.christian	pantheism environmentalism hi i m new to this group and maybe this has been covered already but does anybody out there see the current emphasis on the environment being turned unintentionally of course into pantheism i ve debated this quite a bit and while i think a legitimate concern for the planet is a great thing i can easily see it being perverted into something dangerous as evidence may i quote the wall street journal of all things april editorial page we suspect that s because one party to the environmental dispute thinks the earth is sanctified it s clear that much of the environmentalist energy is derived from what has been called the religious left a secular or even pagan fanaticism that now worships such gods as nature and gender with a reverence formerly accorded real religions emphasis mine thoughts reactions harangues
soc.religion.christian	re technology in article apr athos rutgers edu cathye cs uq oz au writes i am fairly new to this group i was wondering about people s opinions on ethical uses of the net and of technology in general the classic references in this area are jacques ellul for a liberal evangelical perspective and os guiness for a straight evangelical view if you want to look at non christian sources try alvin toffler as the perennial optimist his views while blatently non christian explore where technology may be going for example there are some chain letters going around which claim to have been written by a christian missionary but which present a misleading image of the christian religion this is regardless of technology be careful to separate the issues of related to speed and dispersion of technology how far the letter went and how quickly it got there and the message being passed in the technology something that seems to be totally wrong how can we help to make best use of computer technology when lecturing in this area i challenge my non christan atheistic class about the impact technology has on life quality of life and the rights that they consider important depending on how you work out your faith will determine your response to the use of technology for example friends of mine are considering ivf due to a life threatening situation the wife is going through when it is over they will have the baby god willing in this case the technology is available and my friends have to decide what to do in all cases though you must decide if the technology is against god s revealed word regards david david morgan university of technology sydney morgan socs uts edu au po box broadway nsw ph broadway sydney fax i paid good money to get my opinions you get them for free v
soc.religion.christian	seven castaways w gilligan seven deadly sins gilligan sloth skipper anger thurston howell iii greed lovey howell gluttony ginger lust professor pride mary ann envy
soc.religion.christian	daily verse therefore whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven matthew
soc.religion.christian	re elder brother in article apr athos rutgers edu rexlex fnal gov writes in article apr athos rutgers edu shrum hpfcso fc hp com matt go therefore to the main highways and as many as you find there invite to the wedding feast hmmmmmm sounds like your theology and christ s are at odds which one am i to believe in this parable jesus tells the parable of the wedding feast the kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king which made a marriage for his son so the wedding clothes were customary and given to those who chose to attend this man refused to wear the clothes the wedding clothes are equalivant to the clothes of righteousness when jesus died for our sins those clothes were then provided like that man it is our decision to put the clothes on
soc.religion.christian	does god love you i have come across what i consider to be an excellent tract it is a bit lengthy for a posting but i thought i d share it with all of you anyway feel free to pass it along to anyone whom you feel might benefit from what it says may god richly bless those who read it d o e s g o d l o v e y o u q what kind of question is that anyone who can read sees signs tracts books and bumper stickers that say god loves you isn t that true a it is true that god offers his love to the whole world as we read in one of the most quoted verses in the bible for god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life john however god s love is qualified the bible says the way of the wicked is an abomination unto the lord but he loveth him that followeth after righteousness proverbs for the lord knoweth the way of the righteous but the way of the ungodly shall perish psalm q but i am not wicked i am a decent moral person surely the good i have done in my life far outweighs whatever bad i have done how can these verses apply to me a by god s standard of righteousness even the most moral person is looked upon by god as a desperate sinner on his way to hell the bible teaches that no one is good enough in himself to go to heaven on the contrary we are all sinners and we are all guilty before god as it is written there is none righteous no not one there is none that understandeth there is none that seeketh after god romans the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked who can know it jeremiah q if i am such a wicked person in god s sight what will god do to me a the bible teaches that at the end of the world all the wicked will come under eternal punishment in a place called hell for a fire is kindled in mine anger and shall burn unto the lowest hell and shall consume the earth with her increase and set on fire the foundations of the mountains i will heap mischiefs upon them i will spend mine arrows upon them they shall be burnt with hunger and devoured with burning heat and with bitter destruction i will also send the teeth of beasts upon them with the poison of serpents of the dust deuteronomy q oh come on now hell is not real is it surely things are not that bad a indeed hell is very real and things are that bad for the individ ual who does not know the lord jesus christ as savior the bible makes many references to hell indicating that it is both eternal and consists of perpetual suffering and whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire revelation so shall it be at the end of the world the angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the just and shall cast them into the furnace of fire there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth matthew when the lord jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not god and that obey not the gospel of our lord jesus christ who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the lord and from the glory of his power thessalonians q that is terrible why would god create a hell a hell is terrible and it exists because god created man to be accountable to god for his actions god s perfect justice demands payment for sin for the wages of sin is death romans for we must all appear before the judgment seat of christ that every one may receive the things done in his body according to that he hath done whether it be good or bad corinthians but i say unto you that every idle word that men shall speak they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment matthew q does that mean that at the end of the world everyone will be brought to life again to be judged and then to be sent to hell a indeed it does that is unless we can find someone to be our substitute in bearing the punishment of eternal damnation for our sins that someone is god himself who came to earth as jesus christ to bear the wrath of god for all who believe in him all we like sheep have gone astray we have turned every one to his own way and the lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all isaiah but he was wounded for our transgressions he was bruised for our iniquities the chastisement of our peace was upon him and with his stripes we are healed isaiah for i delivered unto you first of all that which i also received how that christ died for our sins according to the scriptures and that he was buried and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures corinthians for he hath made him to be sin for us who knew no sin that we might be made the righteousness of god in him corinthians q are you saying that if i trust in christ as my substitute who was already punished for my sins then i will not have to worry about hell anymore a yes this is so if i have believed in christ as my savior then it is as if i have already stood before the judgment throne of god christ as my substitute has already paid for my sins he that believeth on the son hath everlasting life and he that believeth not the son shall not see life but the wrath of god abideth on him john q but what does it mean to believe on him if i agree with all that the bible says about christ as savior then am i saved from going to hell a believing on christ means a whole lot more than agreeing in our minds with the truths of the bible it means that we hang our whole lives on him it means that we entrust every part of our lives to the truths of the bible it means that we turn away from our sins and serve christ as our lord no man can serve two masters for either he will hate the one and love the other or else he will hold to the one and despise the other ye cannot serve god and mammon matthew repent ye therefore and be converted that your sins may be blotted out when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the lord acts q are you saying that there is no other way to escape hell except through jesus what about all the other religions will their followers also go to hell a yes indeed they cannot escape the fact that god holds us account able for our sins god demands that we pay for our sins other religions cannot provide a substitute to bear the sins of their followers christ is the only one who is able to bear our guilt and save us neither is there salvation in any other for there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved acts jesus said i am the way the truth and the life no man cometh unto the father but by me john if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness john q now i am desperate i do not want to go to hell what can i do a you must remember that god is the only one who can help you you must throw yourself altogether on the mercies of god as you see your hopeless condition as a sinner cry out to god to save you and the publican standing afar off would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven but smote upon his breast saying god be merciful to me a sinner luke sirs what must i do to be saved and they said believe on the lord jesus christ and thou shalt be saved acts q but how can i believe on christ if i know so little about him a wonderfully god not only saves us through the lord jesus but he also gives us the faith to believe on him you can pray to god that he will give you faith in jesus christ as your savior for by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of god ephesians god works particularly through the bible to give us that faith so if you really mean business with god about your salvation you should use every opportunity to hear and study the bible which is the only word of god in this brochure all verses from the bible are within indented paragraphs give heed to them with all your heart so then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of god romans q but does this mean that i have to surrender everything to god a yes god wants us to come to him in total humility acknowledging our sinfulness and our helplessness trusting totally in him the sacrifices of god are a broken spirit a broken and a contrite heart o god thou wilt not despise psalm because we are sinners we love our sins therefore we must begin to pray to god for an intense hatred of our sins and if we sincerely desire salvation we will also begin to turn from our sins as god strengthens us we know that our sins are sending us to hell unto you first god having raised up his son jesus sent him to bless you in turning away every one of you from his iniquities acts q doesn t the bible teach that i must attend church regularly and be baptized will these save me a if possible we should do these things but they will not save us no work of any kind can secure our salvation salvation is god s sovereign gift of grace given according to his mercy and good pleas ure salvation is not of works lest any man should boast ephesians q what else will happen at the end of the world a those who have trusted in jesus as their savior will be transformed into their glorious eternal bodies and will be with christ forever more for the lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel and with the trump of god and the dead in christ shall rise first then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the lord thessalonians q what will happen to the earth at that time a god will destroy the entire universe by fire and create new heavens and a new earth where christ will reign with his believers forever more but the day of the lord will come as a thief in the night in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise and the elements shall melt with fervent heat the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up nevertheless we according to his promise look for new heavens and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness peter q does the bible give us any idea of when the end of the earth will come a yes the end will come when christ has saved all whom he plans to save and this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations and then shall the end come matthew q can we know how close to the end of the world we might be a yes god gives much information in the bible concerning the timing of the history of the world and tells us that while the day of the lord will come as a thief in the night for the unsaved it will not come as a thief for the believers there is much evidence in the bible that the end of the world and the return of christ may be very very close all the time clues in the bible point to this for when they shall say peace and safety then sudden destruction cometh upon them as travail upon a woman with child and they shall not escape thessalonians surely the lord god will do nothing but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets amos q but that means judgment day is almost here a yes it does god warned ancient nineveh that he was going to destroy that great city and he gave them forty days warning and jonah began to enter into the city a day s journey and he cried and said yet forty days and nineveh shall be overthrown jonah q what did the people of nineveh do a from the king on down they humbled themselves before god repented of their sins and cried to god for mercy but let man and beast be covered with sackcloth and cry mightily unto god yea let them turn every one from his evil way and from the violence that is in their hands who can tell if god will turn and repent and turn away from his fierce anger that we perish not jonah q did god hear their prayers a yes god saved a great many people of nineveh q can i still cry to god for mercy so that i will not come into judg ment a yes there is still time to become saved even though that time has become very short how shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation which at the first began to be spoken by the lord and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him hebrews in god is my salvation and my glory the rock of my strength and my refuge is in god trust in him at all times ye people pour out your heart before him god is a refuge for us psalm a r e y o u r e a d y t o m e e t g o d a book entitled written by harold camping presents biblical information that we may be very near the end of time for information on how to obtain a copy or to receive a free program guide and list of radio stations on which you can hear our gospel programs please write to family radio oakland california the united states of amer ica or call the foregoing is a copy of the does god love you tract printed by and available free of charge from family radio a number of minor changes have been made to its layout to facilitate computer printing and distribution the only change to the text itself is the paragraph which describes the way in which biblical passages appear within the text in the original tract they appear in italic lettering they appear here as indented paragraphs i have read mr camping s book compared it with what the bible actual ly says find it to be the most credible research with respect to what the future holds that i have ever come across and agree with him that there is just too much data to ignore while none of us is guaranteed one more second of life and while we therefore should take these matters very seriously regardless of when christ will actually return it would appear that our natural tendency to postpone caring about our eternal destiny until we feel that our death is imminent is even more senseless now because in all likelihood the law of averages with respect to life expectancy no longer applies if you wish to obtain a copy of this book so that you can check out these facts for yourself you may find the following information helpful title author harold camping publisher vantage press distributor baker and taylor isbn i have chosen to share this tract with you because i whole heartedly agree with everything it declares and feel that now perhaps more than ever before this information must be made known to paraphrase acts it does not shun to declare unto us all the counsel of god i am always willing to discuss the eternal truths of the bible with anyone who is interested as i believe them to be the only issues of any real importance since we will spend comparatively speaking so little time on this side of the grave and so much on the other feel free to get in touch with me at any time e mail davem bnr ca office home dave mielke grenon avenue ottawa ontario canada k b g
soc.religion.christian	re dead sea scrolls dhancock teosinte agron missouri edu denis hancock writes a very nice article on the dss which i thought answered david cruz uribe s original queries quite well here are some books i have read recently that helped me not only prepare for a week series i taught in sunday school but greatly increased my knowledge of the qumran scrolls one other recent book i would heartily recommend is joseph fitzmyer s response to questions about the dead sea scrolls paulist fitzmyer is one of the preeminent modern nt scholars he was also one of the early workers on the dss his book is written in a straightforward q a that allows it to serve as a source for a great wealth of clearly presented basic up to the moment information about the dss this book is something of a companion volume to raymond brown s response to questions about the dead sea scrolls nichael pop quiz what s wrong with the cover of this book
soc.religion.christian	quality of catholic liturgy i would like the opinion of netters on a subject that has been bothering my wife and me lately liturgy in particular catholic liturgy in the last few years it seems that there are more and more ad hoc events during mass it s driving me crazy the most grace filled aspect of a liturgical tradition is that what happens is something we all do together because we all know how to do it led by the priest of course which makes it a kind of dialogue we present to god but the best masses i ve been to were participatory prayers lately i think the proportion of participation has fallen and the proportion of sitting there and watching or listening or generally being told what to do which is necessary because no one knows what s happening next is growing example last sunday palm sunday we went to the local church usually on palm sunday the congregation participates in reading the passion taking the role of the mob the theology behind this seems profound when we say crucify him we mean it we did it and if he came back today we d do it again it always gives me chills but last week we were invited to sit during the gospel passion and listen besides the orwellian invitation i was really saddened to have my and our little role taken away this seems typical of a shift of participation away from the people and toward the musicians readers and so on new things are introduced in the course of the liturgy and since no one knows what s happening the new things have to be explained and pretty soon instead of doing a lot of the mass we re just sitting there listening or spacing out in my case to how the mass is about to be done in my mind i lay the blame on liturgy committees made up of lay experts but that may not be just i do think that a liturgy committee has a bias toward doing something rather than nothing that s just a fact of bureaucratic life even though a simpler liturgy may in fact make it easier for people to be aware of the lord s presence so we ve been wondering are we the oddballs or is the quality of the mass going down i don t mean that facetiously we go to mass every thursday or friday and are reminded of the power of a very simple liturgy to make us aware of god s presence but as far as the obligatory sunday masses maybe i should just offer it up has anyone else noticed declining congregational participation in catholic masses lately john murray
soc.religion.christian	re prophetic warning to new york city regarding david wilkerson s prophecies while i m not real sure of his credibility i do remember a book he wrote called a vision or something like that he made a prediction that people who bought gold would be hurt financially at the time gold was up to about now it is less than half that this prediction stuck in my mind because a lot of people where i worked were buying gold the problem is we tend to remember predictions that come true and forget ones that didn t a la jean dixon does anyone know if there any of his predictions perhaps from the book i mentioned that can pretty definitely be said to have not come true fred gilham gilham csl sri com peace is only better than war when it s not hell too war being hell makes sense walker percy the second coming
soc.religion.christian	re prayer in jesus name munns cae wisc edu scott munns writes i am doing a dormitory bible discussion with my christian roommate and of the non christian guys on my floor they are very close to accepting christ so we have started to disciple them treat them like baby believers and go into more indepth subjects than the parables etc our first discussion was on prayer eventually we got around to how we should pray in jesus name then an excellent question came up one that i don t have a real answer to the question was if we need to pray in jesus name what about the people before jesus they prayed to god and he listened then in spite of their sins why can t it be the same way now i ll take a try at this from the discussions i have been in and from how i have interpreted the bible i feel that one can pray either way but remember this before jesus the people talked to god no other way and he talked back audible and dreams etc today we have the bible to know gods will and we have his son you died for us he was given as our savior and while we still do things according to gods will we pray through his son in the bible it says that if we are not known to jesus we are not known to god sorry i do not have the verses with me so if we are to be granted eternal life we must present ourselves to jesus first who will then present us to god leonard this space intentionally left blank
soc.religion.christian	request for research subjects please excuse the interruption i am seeking pro life activists to fill out a page questionnaire on attitutes opinions and activities if you would be willing to participate in this research please email me privately at kste purccvm bitnet all replies and questionnaires will be made anonymous prior to printout and will be kept confidential thank you very much for your help kerry at purdue note that i don t normally accept postings on abortion so this isn t an invitation to a discussion in this group clh
soc.religion.christian	re deification aaron bryce cardenas writes basically the prophet s writings make up the old testament the apostles writings make up the new testament these writings recorded in the bible are the foundation of the church hayesstw risc unisa ac za steve hayes writes that seems a most peculiar interpretation of the text the apostles and prophets were people rather than writings and there were new testament prophets as well who built up the churches remember the ot doctrine of witnesses perhaps the prophets testified he is coming the apostles testified he came after all what does prophesy mean secondly what is an apostle answer an especial witness one who is suppose to be a personal witness that means to be a true apostle one must have christ appear to them now lets see when did the church quit claiming
soc.religion.christian	daily verse be devoted to one another in brotherly love honor one another above yourselves romans
soc.religion.christian	re revelations in article apr athos rutgers edu topcat tom tredysvr tredydev unisys com tom albrecht writes now as to the suggestion that all prophecy tends to be somewhat cyclical can you elaborate i m not exactly sure what you mean how does the suggestion relate to isaiah s prophecy of the birth of christ by a virgin i don t see any cycles in that prophecy maybe cyclical is not the best word that is one aspect of it in the case of the virgin birth prophecy it applied to the then and there and also prophetically to christ the army that threatened the king would cease to be a threat in a very short time yet it also prophecied of christ several prophecies that refered to christ also had application at the time they were made out of egypt have i called my son refers both to israel and prophetically to christ why do the heathen rage was said of david and also of christ another example would be the scripture quoted of judas and his bishoprick let another take another example is something that isaiah said of his disciples which is also applied to christ in hebrews the children thou hast given me how does the preterist view account for this phenomenon link link hudson
soc.religion.christian	re sin in article apr athos rutgers edu jadaley cwis unomaha edu jill anne daley writes what exactly is a definition of sin and what are some examples how does a person know when they are committing sin anything that does not bring me closer to god is a sin if you think this is too strict just consider how ambiguous it is this implies that staying the same is a sin a christian should never be satisfied it does not imply that having fun is a sin it does not imply that sleeping is a sin it does imply that i sin every day a perhaps simpler definition anything that is counter to the two great commandments love god love your neighbor is a sin anything i do that is not from love is a sin the same action can be a sin sometimes and not a sin sometimes i could yell at my kids as discipline all the time loving them considering only to teach them proper behavior or i could yell at my kids out of anger or selfishness i could post an excellent article because i am interested in sharing my opinions and getting feedback and learning or i could post an article because i want everyone to realize how wise i am chris mussack
soc.religion.christian	re opinions asked about rejection william mayne mayne pipe cs fsu edu wrote in article apr athos rutgers edu jayne mmalt guild org jayne kulikauskas writes people who reject god don t want to be wth him in heaven we spend our lives choosing to be either for him or against him god does not force himself on us i must say that i am shocked my impression has been that jayne kulikaskas usually writes this much less offensive and ludicrous than this i am not saying that the offensiveness is intentional but it is clear and it is something for christians to consider jayne stands in pretty good company c s lewis wrote a whole book promoting the idea contained in her first sentence quoted above it is called the final divorce excellent book on the subject of heaven and hell highly recommended it s an allegory of souls who are invited indeed beseeched to enter heaven but reject the offer because being with god in heaven means giving up their false pride joe kellett jkellett netcom com
soc.religion.christian	re prophetic warning to new york city in article apr athos rutgers edu evensont spot colorado edu evenson thomas randall writes which brings me around to asking an open question is the bible a closed book of scripture is it okay for us to go around saying god told me this and jesus told me that wouldn t that imply that god is still pouring out new revelation to us i know that some people will feel that is okay and some will not the concept of a closed canon would certainly cast a shadow on contemporary prophets on the other hand an open canon seems to be indicated sometimes there are a lot of people running around saying god told me this and god told me that these days some people really have heard god and others heard their glands mario murrillo mentioned this in a sermon once he said someone told him the lord gave me a song he said that it was the worst song he had ever heard i know why he gave you that song murillo said he didn t want it anymore but god does still speak to his people today and the idea is contrary to the idea of a closed cannon ireneaus wrote about all the gifts of the spirit in the church of his day nd and rd century and he was one of the first to put forth a new testament cannon which was almost identical to the one we have today he believed in a closed cannon many prophets prophesied prophecies which were not recorded in the scriptures for example one prophet in kings whose name starts with an m who prophecied that the king would lose a battle that is the only prophecy he gave recorded in scripture and we no that he had given other prophecies because the king complained before he heard the prophecy he never prophesies anything good about me yet only one little paragraph of all of his lifetime of prophecies are recorded in scripture there are numerous examples barnabas was a prophet acts says before he was even sent out as an apostle yet his writings are not recorded in scripture only two of agabus prophecies are mentioned in scripture he was already a prophet before he gave them so prophecy may be genuine and from god but that does not make it scripture also interesting to note is that some so called prophecies are nothing new but rather an inspired translation of scripture is it right to call that prophecy misleading wouldn t that be more having to do with knowledge i don t know about translations of scripture but i am familiar with prophecies that give applications for scripture there are also similar examples in the bible several times peter interprets prophecies in a seemingly prophetic way for example and his bishoprick let another take concerning judas office a clearer example can be found in matthew jesus is prophesying about what will happen before his return and he quotes a passage out of joel about the sun being darkened and the moon turning to blood so scriptural prophecy can be used in later prophecy sometimes this sort of thing can cross over into being a word of knowledge but gifts of the spirit seem to overlap words of knowledge and wisdom can overlap the word of knowledge and prophecy can overlap interpretation of tounges is very similar to prophecy healings are often considered miracles so sometimes the distinction between gifts is a bit hazy imho it doesn t usually matter that much if we are able to label a phenomenon as long as we recognize them as the work of the spirit and use them according to his leading link hudson
soc.religion.christian	re christians and aids in article apr athos rutgers edu marka travis csd harris com mark ashley writes in article apr athos rutgers edu kevin pictel pictel com kevin davis writes many christians believe in abstinence but in a moment will be overcome by desire we all compromise and rationalize poor choices sin last week i was guilty of anger jealousy and whole mess of other stuff yet i am forgiven and not condemned to suffer with aids to even suggest that aids is deserved is ludicrous some rules are made because at some point man is too stupid to know better yet eventually man learns but only after getting a lesson from experience yes it s important to realize that all actions have consequences and that rules were made for our own good but to suggest that a disease is a punishment for certain types of sin i think is taking things much too far if we got some kind of mouth disease for lying would any of us have mouths left what if we developed blindness every time we lusted after someone or something i dare say all of us would be walking into walls i wonder if aids would be a problem now if people didn t get involved in deviant sexual behaviour certainly people who received tainted blood are not to blame but it just goes to show that all mankind is affected by the actions of a few yes sin can have terrible consequences but we need to be real careful when saying that the consequences are a punishment for sin the jews of jesus s time believed that all sickness was the result of a sin then jesus healed a blind man and said that man was blind to show the glory of god not because of sin if aids or any other std is a punishment for sexual sin what do we do with diseases like cancer or multiple sclerosis which are just as debilitating and terrible as aids yet are not usually linked to a specific behavior or lifestyle in addition imho forgiveness is not the end of things there is still the matter of atonement is it aids i don t know atonement is extremely important but i think you ve missed the mark about as far as you can by suggesting that aids is an atonement for sin the atonement for sin is jesus christ period this is the central message of the gospel a perfect sacrifice was required for our sins and was made in the lamb of god his sacrifice atoned for all of our sins past present and future god does not require pennance for our sins nor does he require us to come up with our own atonement he has graciously already done that for us to suggest that aids or some other consequence is an atonement for sins is literally spitting on the sacrifice that jesus made in case you couldn t tell i get extremely angry and upset when i see things like this instead of rationalizing our own fears and phobias we need to be reaching out to people with aids and other socially unacceptable diseases whether they got the disease through their own actions or not is irrelevant they still need jesus christ no more and no less than we do i ve said this before but i think it s a good analogy people with aids are modern day lepers jesus healed many lepers he can also heal people with aids maybe not on this earth but in an ultimate sense my next door neighbor has aids she has recently come to have a much deeper and more committed relationship with god her theology isn t what i would want it to be but god s grace covers her the amazing thing is that she is gaining weight she s had the disease for over years and her health is excellent apart from occassional skin rashes and such she attributes her improvement in her health to god s intervention in her life who are we to suggest that her disease is some kind of punishment it seems to me that god is being glorified through her disease paul overstreet the country singer has a good song title that i think applies to all of us but for the grace of god there go i or something like that may we all experience and accept god s grace mark ashley disclaimer the opinions expressed marka gcx ssd csd harris com here are my own they do not uunet gcx marka reflect the opinion or policies the lost los angelino of harris corporation paul conditt internet conditt titan tsd arlut utexas edu applied research phone fax laboratories fedex burnet road austin texas university of texas postal p o box austin texas austin texas the most wonderful place in texas to live ttttttttttttttt ttt ttt ttt ttt ttttttttttttt texas tech lady raiders tt ttt tt swc champions ttt ncaa national champions ttt ttttttt
soc.religion.christian	re essene new testament william christie asked about the essene nt andrew kille reponded there is a collection of gospels which usually goes under the name of the essene gospel of peace these are derived from the gnostics not the essenes and are ostensibly translations from syriac texts of the fourth and fifth centuries i vaguely recall i can t find my copy right now clh there had been recent criticism of this in a listserv for academic biblical scholars they all say the book s are modern fakes d h
soc.religion.christian	anybody out there i seldom see any posts in this group is anyone out there in christendom listening if so why don t we get some dialog going here here s a topic to get things started my daughter s christian school sends home a weekly update on school related topics this week they sent something very interesting it was an article written by the leader of a national us christian school organization about a trip he recently made to jerusalem while there he was introduced to one of the rabbis who is working on a project to rebuild the temple at jerusalem the article included photos of the many furnishings that have already been made in preparation for furnishing the rebuilt temple according to the specifications given in the bible what was even more striking is the fact that the plans for the temple are complete and the group is only awaiting permission from the israeli government before beginning the building the other startling fact is the very recent archeological discovery that the original site of the temple is unoccupied and available for building previously it has been thought that the original site was underneath what is now a mosque making rebuilding impossible without sparking a holy war now it appears that nothing stands in the way of rebuilding and resuming sacrifices as the scriptures indicate will happen in the last days although the israeli government will give the permission to start i think it is the hand of god holding the project until he is ready to let it happen brothers and sisters the time is at hand our redemption is drawing near look up postings are in the range of to per day except weekends if people aren t seeing that we ve got propagation problems clh
soc.religion.christian	prayer in jesus name hmm makes you wonder whether prayer in jesus name means saying jesus name or whether we re simply to do all things with the attitude that we belong to jesus frank d
soc.religion.christian	re what did lazarus smell like in the discussion as to why jesus spoke aloud the lazarus come out i m surprised that no one has noticed the verse immediately preceeding jn father i thank you for listening to me though i knew that you always listen to me but i have said this for the sake of the people that are standing around me that they may believe that you have made my your messenger goodspeed translation my guess is that the lazarus come out was also for the sake of the crowd tim rolfe rolfe dsuvax dsu edu rolfe junior dsu edu rolfet columbia dsu edu
soc.religion.christian	re did he really rise in article apr athos rutgers edu emery tc fluke com john emery writes much of the excellent post deleted for space tjl with all the suffering and persecution that it meant to be a believer it would be quite probable that at least one of those in the supposed conspiracy would come forward and confess that the whole thing was a big hoax yet not one did it seems rather reasonable that the disciples did not make up the resurrection but sincerely believed that jesus had actually risen from the dead especially in light of the sufferings that came upon those who believed i was at the jubilee conference this year in pittsburgh pa and the speaker there spoke of this as well he talked about many of the same things you mentioned in your post but here he went into a little more detail i ll paraphrase as best i can suppose you were part of the christian consipracy which was going to tell people that christ had risen never mind the stoning the being burned alive the possible crucifixion let s just talk about a scourging the whip that would be used would have broken pottery metal bone and anything else that they could find attached to it you would be stood facing a wall with nothing to protect you when the whip hit you the first time it would tear the flesh off you with instant incredibly intense pain you would think to yourself all this for a lie the second hit would drop you to your knees you would scream out in agony that your raw back was being torn at again you would say to yourself all this for a lie and you had more coming at the third hit you would scream out that it was all a lie beg for them to stop and tell them that you would swear on your life that it had all been a lie if they would only stop it is amazing enough that those who believed kept their faith under such torture but for a lie there is no one fool enough to do that and no one came forward excellent post john thanks for taking the time tj luoma luomat alleg edu god be merciful to i have fought a good fight me a sinner st luke i have finished my course for me to live is christ and i have kept the faith tim to die is gain philippians
soc.religion.christian	questions from a newbie is life a pass fail course and does god grade on a curve i m new here and only vaguely religious but i want to know what some of you people think specifically are there an infinite number of heavens and a person goes to the one that he she deserves or is it simply heaven or nothing hell also are we graded by those around us or has there always been some unchanging method is the person s childhood taken into account i m sure these must sound like over simplifications to most of you but i figure that you re the experts quinn eschatology is an area on which christians do not agree i suspect that s because our primary source of information is prophets and visionaries and their writings tend to be highly symbolic however both jesus teachings in the gospels and books such as the revelation to john talk primarily about the difference between eternal life and eternal death on a number of occasions jesus does say things that imply some sort of differentiation e g lk and a number of similar passages where jesus says things like even xxx will be better off than you in the judgement also i cor talks about someone who gets into heaven but by the skin of his teeth as it were but these passages are not normally interpreted as suggesting separate heavens so much as differing levels of prestige or punishment in heaven or hell and not all christians would even go as far as that the only christian group i know of that believes in multiple heavens is the mormons and they are very far from mainstream christianity far enough that many of our readers would not call them christian their ideas in this area involve specific mormon revelations in addition to the bible and holy tradition of a more generic christian sort note that many christians will cringe at the very thought of associating grading with god the whole point of christ was to free us from the results of a test that we couldn t possibly pass if you like test analogies god grades on a very strict and unbending scale but he also cheats he replaces our test papers with an exam that was prepared by the teacher before actually doing the grading because some people end up in heaven and others in hell it s easy to see why you d be inclined to think of it as grading while there are differences among branches of christianity on details i think we all agree that in one way or another god cheats i am personally very sceptical about anyone who claims to know exactly how far god s cheating extends will he accept people who don t explicitly acknowledge christ but somehow still follow him in their hearts many christians believe that this is possible at least in principle but certainly not all do jesus provided us with a clear description of how to be saved but it s not clear to me that he provided an exact description of how he s going to place the dividing line certainly he made it clear that we can t expect to know whether other individuals are saved or not clh
soc.religion.christian	re prophetic warning to new york city evensont spot colorado edu evenson thomas randall writes yes i suppose it is true that people make mistakes it is interesting to note that in those long ago ot days if you weren t correct in your prophecies people got very mad and you were no longer believed even put to death this is one of the differences between ot prophecy and nt prophecy in the nt it is expected that when believers gather people will prophesy the prophecy must be judged cor there is nothing about killing someone who makes a mistake to say that we make mistakes is true to say that we make mistakes while filled with the spirit is not true were that true the entire bible having been written by men inspired by god would be subject also to those errors for what is prophecy but like those revelations given in scripture scripture is scripture there is no gift of scripture and i don t know about you but i know that i have made mistakes while filled with the spirit if you don t give grace to allow people to make mistakes they will never grow in the use of the spiritual gifts when we minister in my small group i encourage people to speak out any impressions or images they think might be from the lord only by trying will they know whether they were right or wrong and in either case they ll have a better handle on it the next time didn t you fall when you were learning to ride a bicycle but you kept on trying and you learned both from your failures and your successes spiritual gifts are no different you get better with experience which brings me around to asking an open question is the bible a closed book of scripture is it okay for us to go around saying god told me this and jesus told me that wouldn t that imply that god is still pouring out new revelation to us i know that some people will feel that is okay and some will not the concept of a closed canon would certainly cast a shadow on contemporary prophets on the other hand an open canon seems to be indicated sometimes the canon of scripture is complete does this mean that god no longer speaks i have heard his voice not audibly though some have but clearly nonetheless is what i heard equivalent to scripture no i have never heard contemporary prophets claim that what they receive from the lord is on the same level as scripture on the contrary those who are mature obey the scriptures by submitting their prophecies to fellow believers for judgement and the most reliable yardstick for judging prophecies is certainly the scriptures themselves the canon is closed but god is not silent also interesting to note is that some so called prophecies are nothing new but rather an inspired translation of scripture is it right to call that prophecy misleading wouldn t that be more having to do with knowledge i know the gift of knowledge may not be as exciting to talk about but shouldn t we call a horse a horse does it matter what it is called the question is not how to label it but how to receive it words of knowledge incidentally are similar to prophecy and sometimes the two overlap but generally it is supernatural knowledge of some fact that could not be known otherwise jon reid he is no fool who gives what he cannot keep reid cs uiuc edu to gain what he cannot lose jim elliot
soc.religion.christian	re ancient books i sent in something on this before but i believe it got lost in the weekend accident the moderator described this is an improved version anyway so no loss the first time hl the standard work on detecting forgeries of ancient documents is probably the writing of friedrich blass hermeneutrik und kritik einleitende und hilfsdisziplinen vol of handbuch der klassischen altertums wissenshaft noerdlingen beck portions of this are described in nibley the prophetic book op mormon pp slc deseret book if you want to attempt reading this be forewarned nibley describes blass as a typical german scholar who claims little knowledge of his subject then proceeds to exhaust both the subject and the reader nibley s extract from blass s work is in the form of rules for forgers it makes interesting reading i confess that i have not read blass s work only nibley s extract thereof my german falls far short of what would be required and as far as i know there is no english translation available however i believe the techniques he describes are known widely enough that any competent classical scholar could examine a purportedly ancient document and at least determine if it is consistent with what one would expect of a genuine document of that time frame we will not be able to prove who wrote it but at least we should be able to determine with reasonable confidence if it is from that time and culture or is a later forgery actually there are types of purportedly ancient documents alleged actual holographs or early copies thereof for example the dead sea scrolls these can be tested by various scientific means to determine the age of the paper inks and objects found with them this can provide a pretty clear dating of the actual physical objects documents claiming to be copies of ancient works although the copy itself may be much more recent for example we might find a document which monks in a monastary claim is a copy of something from centuries ago perhaps even having been through several generations of copists this is more of a problem but can still be tested although the test is not likely to be simple we cannot expect a test of the age of the physical objects to tell us much so we must confine our testing to the text itself it is important to remember that none of these tests can tell us if the document is really what it claims to be they can only date the document and identify its culture of origin for example i ve heard of a letter supposed to have been written by jesus himself to a king in what is now iraq if this document were to actually turn up scholars could date the paper and ink assuming they have the holograph they could check the language content and writing style to see if they are consistent with what would be expected of a palestinian jew of that time however even if all test results were positive there is no way to determine if jesus himself actually wrote it we would know what time and culture it came from but barring a known sample of jesus handwriting or other clues for comparison scholarship must stop there there is seldom any way to determine who the actual author was as i say i m no expert on blas s work i do remember some of the tests which can be applied to alleged copies of ancient works specifically we might ask is the document internally consistent does it contradict itself if the work it is short it would be relatively easy to maintain internal consistency even if it is a forgery the longer the forgery the more difficult it is to maintain consistency for this reason most successful forgers stick to short documents is it consistent with the history and geography of the time again a short non specific work might not be testable but if the writing is of any significant length no latter day forger would be able to escape detection here we look for the minor inconspicuous things which someone from that culture would get right without even thinking about it but which a later forger would find too numerous and trivial to check the devil is in the details what about the literary style of the work figures of speech etc any ancient writer would almost certainly speak in ways that seem strange to us are there any such odd phrases in this book if so do they fit in with the culture of course there are complications if the document has been translated or possibly even if somebody just updated language when he copied it a few cases of language not from the culture claimed may be allowed in recent copies they cause problems and reduce certainty to be sure but don t necessarily prove forgery these tests can be quite effective given enough material to work with but they are not easy they require the skills of the historian the linguist the anthropologist etc the questions to ask are is every aspect of this document consistent with what we know about the culture of claimed origin if there are things which don t fit how significant are they are problem areas due to our lack of knowledge later changes by copists or are they really significant there will often be some ambiguity since we never know everything about the culture the end result of any such testing is occasionally certain particularly in the case of holographs or other ancient copies however often it may just be a probability or an indication that the document or maybe parts of it is probably authentic or sometimes maybe other parts are later additions this is often unsettling to a generation raised on tv where all problems are solved in to minutes with time out for commercials it is however the real world and what scholarship has to offer
soc.religion.christian	re is christian a dirty word in article mar athos rutgers edu usceast cs scarolina edu moss cs scarolina edu james moss writes i was brought up christian but i am not christian any longer i also have a bad taste in my mouth over christianity i in my own faith accept and live my life by many if not most of the teachings of christ but i cannot let myself be called a christian beacuse to me too many things are done on the name of christianity that i can not be associated with a question for you can you give me the name of an organization or a philosophy or a political movement etc which has never had anything evil done in its name you re missing a central teaching of christianity man is inherently sinful we are saved through faith by grace knowing that believing that does not make us without sin furthermore not all who consider themselves christians are even those who manage to head their own churches not everyone who says to me lord lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but only he who does the will of my father who is in heaven matt i also have a problem with the inconsistancies in the bible and how it seems to me that too many people have edited the original documents to fit their own world views thereby leaving the bible an unbelievable source again what historical documents do you trust do you think hannibal crossed the alps how do you know how do you know for sure what historical documents have stood the scrutiny and the attempts to dis credit it as well as the bible has i don t have dislike of christians except for a few who won t quit witnessing to me no matter how many times i tell them to stop but the christian faith organized religion will never as far as i can see at the moment get my support well it s really a shame you feel this way no one can browbeat you into believing and those who try will probably only succeed in driving you further away you need to ask yourself some difficult questions is there an afterlife and if so does man require salvation to attain it if the answer is yes the next question is how does man attain this salvation can he do it on his own as the eastern religions and certain modern offshoots like the new age movement teach or does he require god s help if the latter in what form does indeed in what form can such help come needless to say this discussion could take a lifetime and for some people it did comprise their life s writings so i am hardly in a position to offer the answers here merely pointers to what to ask few of us manage to have an unshaken faith our entire lives certainly not me the spritual life is a difficult journey if you ve never read a pilgrim s progress i highly recommend this greatest allegory of the english language peace and love in god ess s name james moss now i see by your close that one possible source of trouble for you may be a conflict between your politcal beliefs and your religious upbringing you wrote that i in my own faith accept and live my life by many if not most of the teachings of christ well christ referred to god as my father not my mother and while the maleness of god is not the same as the maleness of those of us humans who possess a y chromosome it does not honor god to refer to him as female purely to be trendy non discriminatory or politically correct this in no way disparages women nor is it my intent to do so by my use of the male pronoun to refer to both men and women english just does not have a decent neuter set of pronouns after all god chose a woman as his only human partner in bringing christ into the human population well i m not about to launch into a detailed discussion of the role of women in christianity at am with only hours of sleep in the last and for that reason i also apologize for any shortcomings in this article i just happened across yours and felt moved to reply i hope i may have given you and anyone else who finds himself in a similar frame of mind something to contemplate karl dussik
soc.religion.christian	re the arrogance of christians in article apr athos rutgers edu vbv r d eeap cwru edu virgilio dean b velasco jr wrote we affirm the absolutes of scripture not because we are arrogant moralists but because we believe in god who is truth who has revealed his truth in his word and therefore we hold as precious the strategic importance of those absolutes pardon me a humble atheist but exactly what is the difference between holding a revealed truth with blind faith as its basis i e regardless of any evidence that you may find to the contrary as an absolute truth fully expecting people to believe you and arrogance they sound like one and the same to me and nearly every time i meet a christian or for that matter any other theist who tries to convert me i find this proven over and over again i see no wisdom whatsoever in your words unfaithfully yours pixie p s if you do sincerely believe that a god exists why do you follow it blindly do the words question authority mean anything to you i defy any theist to reply
soc.religion.christian	accepting jeesus in your heart firstly i am an atheist i am not posting here as an immature flame start but rather to express an opinion to my intended audience the meaning of my existence is a question i ask myself daily i live in fear of what will happen when i die i bet some of you are licking your lips now because you think that i m a person on the edge of accepting jeezus i was raised in a religious atmosphere and attended years of religious educational institutions i know the bible well so well i can recognize many passages from memory strong opinions start here the human being is an animal who has due to his her advanced mental facilities developed religious as a satisfiable solution to explain the unexplainable for example the ancient greeks believed that apollo drove his chariot across the sky each day was real due to the advancement of our technology we know this to be false christianity is an infectious cult the reasons it flourishes are because it gives people without hope or driven purpose in life a safety blanked to hide behind oh wow all i have to do is follow this christian moral standard and i get eternal happiness for all of you found jeezus how many of you were on the brink but i digress the other reason christianity flourishes is its infectious nature a best friend of mine breifly entered a christian group and within months they set ministry guidelines for him which basicaly said this priority spread the word we are just animals we need sleep food and we reproduce and we die religion especially christianity is nothing more than a drug some people use drugs as an escape from reality christians inject themselves with jeezus and live with that high it pities me how many millions of lives have been lost in religious wars of which christianity has had no small part when christians see a non believer they say that person is blind to the truth but they cannot realize that it is they who live with this mask of fakeness each day jesus was just prophet who happened to have a large influence because at that time the romans were circa ad dispersing the jewish population and communities needed some sort of cohesive element to keep them strong in that time of dire need i must go these are but a few of my thoughts on christianity damien endemyr the unpure knight of doom so i ve acquired a taste for blood and have adopted a nocturnal lifestyle that doesnt mean i m a vampire
soc.religion.christian	re the arrogance of christians vbv r d eeap cwru edu virgilio dean b velasco jr writes i just thought i d share some words that i received in a letter from moody bible institute a couple of months ago the words are by james m stowell the president of mbi the other day i was at the dry cleaner and the radio was playing it caught my attention because a talk show guest was criticizing evangelical christians saying we believe in absolutes and think we are the only ones who know what the absolutes are he missed the point no imo mr stowell missed the point we affirm the absolutes of scripture not because we are arrogant moralists but because we believe in god who is truth who has revealed his truth in his word and therefore we hold as precious the strategic importance of those absolutes mr stowell seems to have jumped rather strangely from truth to absolutes i don t see how that necessarily follows are all truths also absolutes is all of scripture truths and therefore absolutes if the answer to either of these questions is no then perhaps you can explain to me how you determine which parts of scripture are truths and which truths are absolutes and who is qualified to make these determinations there is hardly consensus even in evangelical christianity not to mention the rest of christianity regarding biblical interpretation i find mr stowell s statement terribly simple minded carol alvin caralv auto trol com
soc.religion.christian	re ancient books in article apr athos rutgers edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes but since the manuscripts are so close to the actual event especially as compared with ancient non christian history could it help show that we have accurate copies of the original texts that s a very weak argument due the lack with regard to critical events of independent supporting texts as for the dating of the oldest extant texts of the nt how would you feel about the us civil war in a couple of thousand years if the only extant text was written about now now adjust for a largely illiterate population and one in which every copy of a manuscript is done by hand hal hal heydt analyst pacific bell if you think the system is working ask someone who s waiting for a prompt whheydt pbhya pacbell com
soc.religion.christian	doug sturm is anyone familiar with doug sturm if so please post what you think
soc.religion.christian	re technology mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington writes the computer is not a fantasyland where one s responsibilities disappear the people on the net are real slander and deception carried out by net are just as wrong as they would be if carried out on paper or face to face well said michael the catholic traditon has a list of behaviours called the spiritual works of mercy admonish the sinner instruct the ignorant counsel the doubtful comfort the sorrowful bear wrongs patiently forgive all injury pray for the living and the dead yes i know there is some controversy on this and i don t want to argue about it these are all things that have a direct application to usenet people ask questions and express doubts some are in need of comfort or prayers imagine what would happen to flame wars if we bore wrongs patiently and forgave injuries i would add that it is probably more appropriate to do any admonishing by private email than publicly jayne kulikauskas jayne mmalt guild org
soc.religion.christian	re post jono mac ak rtsg mot com jon ogden writes my advice is this if you know someone that you have the hots for who is not a christian befriend them and try to develop just a friendship with them at the same time witness and share the gospel with them not so that you can date them but so that they can be saved once they become a christian then it is quite possible to let the relationship progress beyond friendship however if they don t accept christ you still have a good friendship and you haven t wasted a lot of emotional energy and gotten hurt while i agree with most of jon says i deleted those parts of course i have serious reservations about this advice maintaining a just friends level of relationship is much easier said than done people usually end up getting hurt this is especially likely to happen when they start off with feelings of attraction when people feel attracted those feelings can cloud their judgement i ve had the experience of going quickly from believing that i shouldn t date non christians to believing that dating this man would be okay to believing that premarital sex is fine when people really love each other when the relationship ended my beliefs immediately returned to their original state this is an especially extreme case because i was young and away from home and fellowship i don t think it would work exactly this way for most people however it s important not to underestimate the power of feelings of attraction jayne kulikauskas jayne mmalt guild org
soc.religion.christian	re pantheism and environmentalism kevxu cunyvm bitnet writes deleted first paragraph and the mention of pantheism is pantheism perverted and dangerous or just not one s cup of tea none of this is clear i can t speak for mr cavano but i understood his comment to refer to the idea that unrecognized pantheism is dangerous to christians if we unthinkingly adopt pantheistic ideas that are opposed to christianity we can pervert our faith when we clearly recognize pantheism when we encounter it we have the opportunity to embrace what is consistent with christianity and reject what isn t we need to be alert always thinking and questioning we must examine the underlying assumptions of every book we read tv program we watch and socio political movement we participate in ideas are important philosophies and doctrines are what give form to the events of our lives they are the basis from which we live our lives of love and service the command to love god with all one s mind means no fuzzy headed drifting from idea to idea and that consumerism and our rapacious style of living are so rarely called by their appropriate name greed one christian who acknowledges this is the pope it is a frequent theme in his writings indeed thoughtful christians from most traditions recognize that consumerism has no place in the lives of christians it too is a perversion and dangerous to our faith thank you jack for pointing out the parallel jayne kulikauskas jayne mmalt guild org
soc.religion.christian	easter what s in a name was re new testament double standard seanna bnr ca seanna s m watson writes in quebec french the word for the celebration of the resurrection is pa ques this is etymologically related to pesach passover and the pascal lamb so is the french canadian mostly roman catholic celebration better because it uses the right name i was at my parents seder and noticed the labelling on one of the packages was english hebrew and french in the phrase kosher for passover the french word used was pa ques we ve deliberately mistranslated this at the kulikauskas home and keep referring to foods being kosher for easter back to the original questions in this thread concerning christians of jewish descent and the law i always wonder when i see posts on this subject whether the writers are christians of jewish descent relating the life decisions god has led them to or people who take only an academic interest in the topic having known seanna since she was nine years old i do know in this case i admit that the answer to this question affects the amount of weight i give to the writer s statement jayne kulikauskas jayne mmalt guild org
soc.religion.christian	re sex education in article apr athos rutgers edu mprc troi cc rochester edu m price writes in apr athos rutgers edu jenk microsoft com jen kilmer writes method expected actual failure rate failure rate abstinence these figures don t seem to take account of rape or is a woman who is raped considered not to have been abstaining i no longer have the textbook but abstinence was defined as something like no contact between the penis and the vagina vulva or area immediately surrounding the vulva and no transfer of semen to the vagina vulva or area surrounding the vulva that is abstinence wasn t discussed as sex outside of marriage is morally wrong but as keep the sperm away from the ovum and conception is impossible the moral question i recall the teacher asking was is it okay to create a child if you aren t able to be a good parent yet jen include stdisclaimer jenk microsoft com msdos testing
soc.religion.christian	weirdness of early christians i am a good catholic boy a convert no less attracted by the rational tradition aquinas et al and the emotional authenticity in comp with the faddishness of anglicanism to roman catholicism i never had much time for the pope or any other heirarchs but i did and do believe in the sacremental system i always felt quite happy to look down my nose at those such as john emery a few posts back who had to engage in circuitous textual arguments to prove their faith entirely oblivious to the fact that a dozen other faiths can do the same with miracles too and that since their arguments depend on the belief in the bible as god s sole revelation it was not very good logic to argue that the bible proved god no i was happy to accept the church as god s revelation it was the church after all that existed before the bible the church that choose under grace of course the canon of scripture protestant ludicrosity i thought was shown by protestants breathtaking acceptance of luther s right to reject a dozen or so books he disliked but recently i read peter brown s body and society it is very well researched and well written but is raises some very upsetting questions the early christians were weird even more so than today s carzy fundies they had odd views on sex odder views on the body totally ludicrous views about demons and distinctly uncharitable views about other human beings now the question is this were the first christians just as weird but we ve got used to them or did the pristine fall of the church happen within one generation it certainly did nt have to wait until the triumph of the church under constantine if so wha does this say about god s promise to always support the church it s no use throwing the usual protestant pieties about the church not being an organization at me it s a community or it is nothing and it was the early communities that were weird the institional church was a model of sanity by comparison i would be interested in serious catholic and orthodox responses to this entirely serious issue i m not sure it is an issue for protestants with their soul alone with jesus approach but for we who see the ecclesia as a koinoia over time and space the weird early christians are a problem this is an exaggeration of the protestant view many protestants have a strong appreciation for the role of the church the soul alone with god is certainly important for protestants but it s by no means the whole story i have read the sort of history you talk about as you point out protestants don t have quite the same problem you do because we believe that the church had a fall at some point however protestant mythology typically places the fall around the time of constantine or more likely regard it as happening in a sort of cumulative fashion starting from constantine but getting worse as the pope accumulated power during the medieval period the consequences of having it earlier are somewhat worrisome even to us most protestants accept the theological results of the early ecumenical councils including such items as the trinity and incarnation indeed in the works of reformers such as luther and calvin you ll find church fathers such as augustine quoted all the time i think you ll find many protestants resistant to the idea that the early church as a whole was wierd there is an additional problem for protestants that i don t much want to talk about in this context since it s been looked at recently that s the question of whether one can really think of augustine and other fathers as being proto protestants their views on mary the authority of the pope etc are not entirely congenial to protestant thought one thing that somewhat worries me is a question of methodology there are certainly plenty of wierd people in the early church what concerns me is that they may be overrepresented in what we see we see every christian who courted martyrdom but i think there s good reason to believe that most ordinary christians were more prudent than that we see the heroic virgins but i think there s good reason to think that many christians were happily married i can t help suspecting that the early church had the same range of wierdos and sane people that we do now i think there s also a certain level of revisionism active in history at the moment i don t mean that they re manufacturing things out of whole cloth but don t you think there might be a tendency to emphasize the novel clh
soc.religion.christian	re hell quoth the moderator i have to say that i some qualms about giving you this explanation because it raises additional problems if god is the source of all existence then a complete separation from him would make existence itself impossible so does god maintain just enough connection with those who are rejected to keep them in existence so he can punish them in a short poem god in his mercy made the fixed pains of hell c s lewis expresses an idea that i m sure was current among others but i haven t be able to find its source that even hell is an expression of mercy because god limits the amount of separation from him and hence the amount of agony that one can achieve michael a covington internet mcovingt ai uga edu artificial intelligence programs phone the university of georgia fax athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
soc.religion.christian	re did he really rise the two historic facts that i think the most important are these if jesus didn t rise from the dead then he must have done something else equally impressive in order to create the observed amount of impact nobody ever displayed the dead body of jesus even though both the jewish and the roman authorities would have gained a lot by doing so it would have discredited the christians michael a covington internet mcovingt ai uga edu artificial intelligence programs phone the university of georgia fax athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
soc.religion.christian	legitimate bawdy humor was re sex education it s a joke in article apr athos rutgers edu lubosh hanuska anu edu au ljh writes well my son the best advice i can give you is this eat a lot of carrots oh do you really think that will work and should it be before or after intercourse instead my son instead disclaimer as a single catholic i didn t have any business to post this kind of joke to this group so if you found it inappropriate but what was wrong with it it won t tempt anyone to any kind of sin as far as i can tell it doesn t belittle anyone it does not substitute offensiveness for humor it s genuinely funny we shouldn t assume that all jokes that mention sexuality are dirty merely because so many are and we should never mistake prudery for spirituality it can be the direct opposite a symptom of the lack of a healthy perspective on god s creation michael a covington internet mcovingt ai uga edu artificial intelligence programs phone the university of georgia fax athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
soc.religion.christian	re easter what s in a name was re new testament double standard in article apr athos rutgers edu jayne mmalt guild org jayne kulikauskas writes seanna bnr ca seanna s m watson writes in quebec french the word for the celebration of the resurrection is pa ques this is etymologically related to pesach passover and the pascal lamb so is the french canadian mostly roman catholic celebration better because it uses the right name i was at my parents seder and noticed the labelling on one of the packages was english hebrew and french in the phrase kosher for passover the french word used was pa ques we ve deliberately mistranslated this at the kulikauskas home and keep referring to foods being kosher for easter however the word pa ques in french is the word for easter ask any francophone whether from quebec or from paris besides haven t you heard of the phrase the paschal lamb meaning jesus sorry to nitpick on the more trivial part of this thread vera i am your clock i bind unto myself today vera noyes i am your religion the strong name of the noye midway uchicago edu i own you trinity no disclaimer what lard st patrick s breastplate is there to disclaim
soc.religion.christian	witness proof of christ s resurrection immmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm t h e w i t n e s s p r o o f o f j e s u s c h r i s t s r e s u r r e c t i o n f r o m t h e d e a d hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm the witness of the lord jesus christ mark and he began to teach them that the son of man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes and be killed and after three days rise again mark for he was teaching his disciples and telling them the son of man is to be delivered into the hands of men and they will kill him and when he has been killed he will rise three days later mark and they will mock him and spit upon him and scourge him and kill him and three days later he will rise again mark but regarding the fact that the dead rise again have you not read in the book of moses in the passage about the burning bush how god spoke to him saying i am the god of abraham and the god of isaac and the god of jacob luke and after they have scourged him they will kill him and the third day he will rise again luke and he said to them thus it is written that the christ should suffer and rise again from the dead the third day john jesus said to her i am the resurrection and the life he who believes in me shall live even if he dies john for as yet they did not understand the scripture that he must rise again from the dead acts explaining and giving evidence that the christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead and saying this jesus whom i am proclaiming to you is the christ the witness of the apostle paul corinthians now i make known to you brethren the gospel which i preached to you which also you received in which also you stand by which also you are saved if you hold fast the word which i preached to you unless you believed in vain for i delivered to you as of first importance what i also received that christ died for our sins according to the scriptures and that he was buried and that he was raised on the third day according to the scriptures and that he appeared to cephas then to the twelve after that he appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time most of whom remain until now but some have fallen asleep then he appeared to james then to all the apostles and last of all as it were to one untimely born he appeared to me also for i am the least of the apostles who am not fit to be called an apostle because i persecuted the church of god but by the grace of god i am what i am and his grace toward me did not prove vain but i labored even more than all of them yet not i but the grace of god with me whether then it was i or they so we preach and so you believed now if christ is preached that he has been raised from the dead how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead but if there is no resurrection of the dead not even christ has been raised and if christ has not been raised then our preaching is vain your faith also is vain moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of god because we witnessed against god that he raised christ whom he did not raise if in fact the dead are not raised for if the dead are not raised not even christ has been raised and if christ has not been raised your faith is worthless you are still in your sins then those also who have fallen asleep in christ have perished if we have hoped in christ in this life only we are of all men most to be pitied but now christ has been raised from the dead the first fruits of those who are asleep for since by a man came death by a man also came the resurrection of the dead for as in adam all die so also in christ all shall be made alive but each in his own order christ the first fruits after that those who are christ s at his coming then comes the end when he delivers up the kingdom to the god and father when he has abolished all rule and all authority and power for he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet the last enemy that will be abolished is death logical proofs of jesus christ s resurrection jesus s enemies would not have stolen his body because that would have perpetrated the resurrection the very opposite of what they desired jesus disciples could not have stolen his body because pontius pilate established guards to stand watch over the tomb lest his body be stolen sadly and ironically many of jesus disciples did not believe in the resurrection until jesus had risen from the dead in nearly centuries no body has ever been produced to refute jesus assertion that he would indeed rise from the dead the probability of being able to perpetrate such a hoax successfully upon the entire world for nearly centuries is astronomically negative
soc.religion.christian	re quality of catholic liturgy in apr athos rutgers edu jemurray magnus acs ohio state edu john e murray writes i would like the opinion of netters on a subject that has been bothering my wife and me lately liturgy in particular catholic liturgy in the last few years it seems that there are more and more ad hoc events during mass it s driving me crazy the most grace filled aspect of a liturgical tradition is that what happens is something we all do together because we all know how to do it led by the priest of course which makes it a kind of dialogue we present to god but the best masses i ve been to were participatory prayers having lived through the kicking and screaming in the s and s as the catholics were invited to participate in the liturgy instead of counting their rosary beads during mass i find this comment interesting there is a massively longer tradition for proclaiming the passion accounts without active participation if you know the latin one really beautiful way to hear the passion is it s being chanted by three deacons the narrator chants in the middle baritone range jesus chants in the bass and others directly quoted are handled by a high tenor this is actually the basis for the common proclamation of the passion that john would prefer but there is always a judgement call based on pastoral considerations each pastor makes his own decisions it isn t a church wide conspiracy against participation the palm sunday liturgy with its initial blessing and distribution of the palms and procession is already getting long before you get to the passion some pastors feel that they should not make the people stand through that long narrative also the orchestrated proclamation with multiple readers and public participation in the crowd quotations runs longer than the single reader proclamation in churches with multiple masses for the sunday it might be necessary to go with the briefer options just to get em in and get em out each parish is different catholics are no longer canonically tied to their geographic parishes it is possible that another catholic parish in the columbus area based on the ohio state address has a liturgy closer to your preferences or talk to some of your fellow parishioners and see how common your preferences are pastors generally are willing to listen to non confrontational requests though you probably should bring along a paramedic in case he reacts too strongly to the shock of people asked for a longer sunday mass perhaps the problem is that recent liturgical development hasn t follow the continuous evolution model the accumulation of small changes no single one of which is too hard to take but rather the punctuated equilibrium model things stay the same and we get accustomed to them then the marked mutation hits my apologies if i am mis remembering the names of the evolutionary theories tim rolfe rolfe dsuvax dsu edu rolfe junior dsu edu rolfet columbia dsu edu
soc.religion.christian	re christians and aids in article apr athos rutgers edu marka travis csd harris com mark ashley writes in article apr athos rutgers edu kevin pictel pictel com kevin davis writes many christians believe in abstinence but in a moment will be overcome by desire we all compromise and rationalize poor choices sin last week i was guilty of anger jealousy and whole mess of other stuff yet i am forgiven and not condemned to suffer with aids to even suggest that aids is deserved is ludicrous when man was told not to have sex with relatives did they listen no and man found out why so what s your point mark s comment still is valid to suggest that aids is deserved is ludicrous i sin i can resolve to abstain from sin and do weekly more often actually yet i routinely fail i surely do deserve what i get yet god compassionately provided the incarnate logos jesus as a rememdy and a way out of our situation if aids is deserved i surely deserve instant death just as much as do we all as st paul so cogently remids us to willingly judge others as deserving punishment seems to me to be the height of arrogance and lack of humility i wonder if aids would be a problem now if people didn t get involved in deviant sexual behaviour certainly people who received tainted blood are not to blame but it just goes to show that all mankind is affected by the actions of a few so what s the point here i can get aids and never engage in deviant sexual behavior in fact i could engage in lots of deviant sexual behavior with hiv people and never be infected aids is a consequence of particular behaviors many of which are not sexual and not all sexual behaviors carry the risk of transmission in addition imho forgiveness is not the end of things there is still the matter of atonement is it aids i don t know the end of all things is to know love and serve god growing daily closer through prayer meditation and discipline even so i could get aids anyone could unless they remain forever celibate iv drug free and transfusion free larry overacker llo shell com lawrence overacker shell oil company information center houston tx llo shell com
soc.religion.christian	re christians and aids paul conditt writes yes it s important to realize that all actions have consequences and that rules were made for our own good but to suggest that a disease is a punishment for certain types of sin i think is taking things much too far text deleted yes sin can have terrible consequences but we need to be real careful when saying that the consequences are a punishment for sin i wish that you had followed this thread before jumping to conclusions i haven t seen anybody write that aids was a punishment for certain types of sin this includes mark ashley who you were responding to here i myself wrote that when you don t do things god s way that curses will come on you and others although one definition of curse is retribution i only meant harm or misfortune when i used the word because god loves us he has told us the best way to live in his bible god doesn t cause curses he warns us of them kevin davis wrote a while ago last week i was guilty of anger jealousy and whole mess of other stuff yet i am forgiven and not condemned to suffer with aids to even suggest that aids is deserved is ludicrous the bible makes it clear that we all equally deserve death which is much worse than aids we have all hurt god with our sin paul conditt reveals his feelings in case you couldn t tell i get extremely angry and upset when i see things like this instead of rationalizing our own fears and phobias we need to be reaching out to people with aids and other socially unacceptable diseases whether they got the disease through their own actions or not is irrelevant they still need jesus the first issue you bring up is your anger it is obvious ly wrong to be angry gal for any reason especially extremely angry which is on par with hatred jesus has every reason to be angry at us for putting him on the cross with our sin yet his prayer was forgive them father they know not what they do knowing how forgiving jesus has been with me calls me to be more forgiving with everyone out of love for him please don t give in to anger it will only cause foolish quarrels and more bad feelings it s okay if you read something that bothers you but you need to address it in a loving way if right now i felt like someone out there was saying that god punishes gay or sexually immoral people with aids because they deserve punishment that others don t then i would frame a response something like this it makes me feel very sad for someone to believe that aids which is simply a harmful disease not so unlike any other is god s punishment for people who have committed certain sins god loves all of his children equally and rejoices when a single one comes back to him we will all be judged after we die but until then we all have the opportunity to accept god s grace by earnestly seeking after him with all of our hearts believing the gospel s testimony repenting of our sin confessing that jesus is lord at baptism and living a new life for him let us not judge someone to be eternally condemned god s arm is not to short to save he will do anything he can to move a hardened heart or a misled person he works for the good of all men even through the worst of situations he has set the times and places for all men that they may perhaps reach out and find him the second issue you bring up is seeing people rationalize their fears of people with aids fortunately what you describe as seeing is actually misperceiving you have been missing the points made in the earlier posts and reacting in anger to attitudes that haven t been expressed i know that its sometimes hard to discount your perceptions but please try to be open minded you are quite correct in saying that we should reach out to all people because they all need jesus this is what my brothers and sisters and i do on a daily basis if you would like to send me the name of the city and state you live in i will find and get you in touch with some brothers who have aids or know people with aids and live nearby you so that you can see the loving attitudes for yourself the third issue you bring up is the importance of how some individual contracted aids how someone gets aids is only relevant to their salvation in that there may be repetence involved the important point to be made however is that not listening to god s commands or advice or warnings i e sinning causes harm or misfortune to yourself and others for this reason a good way to prevent the misfortune of aids which can be transmitted in sinful ways is to listen to god s advice and have sex only with your wife or husband i hope that you are feeling better now paul love aaron cardenas
soc.religion.christian	re essene new testament in apr athos rutgers edu harwood umiacs umd edu david harwood writes there had been recent criticism of this in a listserv for academic biblical scholars they all say the book s are modern fakes d h which listsev was this and is the discussion still current my questioning is based on some information presented from the essene nt that challenges some of my eating choices as the info came from a biased opposed to my preferences third party i am looking for info as to whether i should dismiss this work or put some consideration into it thanks again for info will christie aatchoo philosophy the principles and university of manitoba uh oh science of thought and reality winnipeg mb canada i m leaking philosopher someone who thinks chrstie ccu umanitoba ca brain lubricant they re useful to society
soc.religion.christian	re pantheism environmentalism in article apr athos rutgers edu jono mac ak rtsg mot com jon ogden writes so we see that we are masters of this planet it is ours to care for and ours to look after we will be judged on how well we do this task c we are not to be in the business of spreading lies what we tell others we must be sure is true we should check out the information verify it with scientific fact and go from there just what are these scientific facts i have never heard of such a thing science never proves or disproves any theory history does tim timothy j brent a man will come to know true happiness brent bank ecn purdue edu only when he accepts that he is but a small part of an infinite universe purdue university spinoza materials science engineering paraphrased i hope we don t get embroiled in a discussion over words here when somebody says get the facts i m not sure we need to get into arguments over the philosophy of science clh
soc.religion.christian	re prayer in jesus name in article apr athos rutgers edu munns cae wisc edu scott munns writes eventually we got around to how we should pray in jesus name then an excellent question came up one that i don t have a real answer to the question was if we need to pray in jesus name what about the people before jesus they prayed to god and he listened then in spite of their sins why can t it be the same way now and in that day you will ask me no question truly truly i say to you if you shall ask the father for anything he will give it to you in my name until now you have asked for nothing in my name ask and you will receive that your joy may be made full john i don t believe that we necessarily have to say in christ s name amen for our prayers to be heard but it glorifies the son when we acknowledge that our prayer is made possible by him i believe that just as those who were saved in the ot could only be saved because jesus would one day reconcile god to man he is the only reason their prayers would be heard by god for all of us have become like one who is unclean and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment and all of us wither like a leaf and our iniquities like the wind take us away isaiah nas our prayers like the rest of our deeds are too unholy to go directly to the father because they are tainted by our sin only by washing these prayers with christ s blood are they worthy to be lifted to to the father first i thank my god through christ jesus romans nas some scholars believe that this is paul recognizing that even his thanks are too unholy for the father basically prayer is a gift of grace i believe that only through jesus do our prayers have any power thus praying in his name glorifies and praises jesus for this beautiful and powerful gift he has given us carter c page of happiness the crown and chiefest part is wisdom a carpenter s apprentice and to hold god in awe this is the law that cpage seas upenn edu seeing the stricken heart of pride brought down we learn when we are old adapted from sophocles
soc.religion.christian	re easter what s in a name was re new testament double standard seanna bnr ca seanna s m watson writes since the day upon which most christians celebrate the resurrection of jesus is approaching i thought i would comment on this in article mar athos rutgers edu dsegard nyx cs du edu daniel segard writes what is the objection to celebration of easter it is celebration of the resurrection of jesus i don t recall a command in scripture for us to celebrate the resurrection but it is the sole and only reason that we are christians how could we not celebrate it if it is only the name not quite correct biblical teaching expects us to celebrate the resurrection of christ not once a year but every time someone is baptized col buried with him in baptism wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of god who hath raised him from the dead rom therefore we are buried with him in baptism into death that like as christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the father even so we also should walk in newness of life those really want to celebrate the resurrection should by faith walk in newness of life after baptism it is not necessary to celebrate a pagan goddess in the process so as we see from scripture those who are of israel will observe the th day forever the gentiles who believe in the messiah of israel are welcome to observe the th day as well but it is not required of them since the are adopted into the commonwealth of israel the gentiles who are grafted into the commonwealth of israel are only required to observe the basic commands given to those who came before abram see also acts no further requirements are placed upon them once they come to faith in messiah so from this i infer that there are different rules for christians of jewish descent what happened to there is neither jew nor greek slave nor free male nor female for all are one in christ jesus jewish christians messianics may find certain forms of worship and certain disciplines meaningful because of their cultural background but i have a hard time understanding the justification for applying rules or commandments to those who have been justified by grace through faith in jesus christ paul answered your question in romans in v he stated that the adoption the glory the covenants the giving of the law the service of god and the promises were given to the israelites it is a package deal he goes on to identify those who are true israelites vs makes it plain that the true israelites are not those who are born that way but those who accept the promise of god paul continued to emphasize that he was an israelite in cor then in gal he says that all those who belong to christ are abraham s seed and heirs to all the promises given to the israelites the promises come with the law it is all or nothing why is it that you only want to discard one part of the law certainly you would want your husband to be faithful to you or do you believe that adultery is no longer forbidden same law btw please give a reference for your statement that the gentiles are only required to observe the basis commandmants could you list those please acts deals with circumcision and the law of moses which was added because of transgression of god s eternal law gal rom darius a lecointe i got my ba when i was born again department of educational research and my ma when i was made anew florida state university now i m getting my phd as i become tel a patient humble disciple e mail dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu
soc.religion.christian	re accepting jeesus in your heart in article apr athos rutgers edu gsu uxa ecn bgu edu eric molas writes firstly i am an atheist atheist drivel deleted untitled a seed is such a miraculous thing it can sit on a shelf forever but how it knows what to do when it s stuck in the ground is what makes it so clever it draws nutrients from the soil through it s roots and gathers its force from the sun it puts forth a whole lot of blossoms and fruit then recedes itself when it is done who programmed the seed to know just what to do and who put the sun in the sky and who put the food in the dirt for the roots and who told the bees to come by and who makes the water to fall from above to refresh and make everything pure perhaps all of this is a product of love and perhaps it happened by chance yeah sure johnny hart cartoonist for b c carter c page of happiness the crown and chiefest part is wisdom a carpenter s apprentice and to hold god in awe this is the law that cpage seas upenn edu seeing the stricken heart of pride brought down we learn when we are old adapted from sophocles
soc.religion.christian	re reason vs revelation in article apr athos rutgers edu trajan stephen mcintyre writes in article apr athos rutgers edu writes i can only reply with what it says in timothy i m not here to discount parts of the bible rather i m here only to discount the notion of revelation the author of timothy told what he thought was the truth based on his belief in god his faith in jesus as the resurrected son and his readings of the old testament but again what had been revealed to him was based on at best second hand information given by friends and authors who may not have given the whole truth or who may have exaggerated a bit first of all the original poster misquoted the reference is from tim the author was paul and his revelations were anything but at best second hand and is came about that as saul journeyed he was approaching damascus and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him saul saul why are you persecuting me and he said who art thou lord and he said i am jesus whom you are persecuting acts nas paul received revelation directly from the risen jesus pretty cool eh he became closely involved with the early church the leaders of which were followers of jesus throughout his ministry on earth now you may say the holy spirit revealed these things unto him and we could go into that argument but you d be hard pressed to convince me that the holy spirit exists i agree i don t believe anyone but the spirit would be able to convince you the spirit exists please don t complain about this being circular i know it is but really can anything of the natural world explain the supernatural this is why revelation is necessary to the authors of the bible additionally what he has written is again second hand info if it were given by the spirit and still carries the chance it is not true the spirit is part of god how much closer to the source can you get the greek in timothy which is sometimes translated as inspired by god literally means god breathed in other words god spoke the actual words into the scriptures many theologians and bible scholars dr james boice is one that i can remember off hand get quite annoyed by the dryness and incompleteness of inspired by god the only way you would be able to escape this notion of second hand info is to have had the entire bible written by god himself and to tell the truth i ve studied the bible extensively and have yet to hear of scholars who have put forth objective evidence showing god as the first author of this collection of books that s what the verse taken from timothy was all about the continuity of a book written over a span of years by more than authors from all walks of life is a testimony to the single authorship of god and as for reason read what it says in corinthians about human wisdom basically it says that human wisdom is useless when compared with what god has written for our learning if you knew of jesus as well as you know the bible you d realize he reasoned out the law and the prophets for the common man what source to you claim to have discovered which has information of superior historicity to the bible certainly not josephus writings or the writings of the gnostics which were third century at the earliest and though some claim jesus was he was human with all of the human wisdom the apostle paul set out to criticize yet would you not embrace the idea that jesus was wise jesus was fully god as well that s why i d assert that he is wise i realise that you may not accept the authority of the bible this is unfortunate to say the least because there is no other way of learning about god and christ and god s purpose with the earth than reading the bible and searching out its truth for yourself for your information i was raised without any knowledge of god by the time some of the faithful came to show me the word and share with me its truth i was living happily and morally without acknowledging the existence of a supreme being i have though read the bible several times over in its entirety and have studied it thoroughly it contains truth in it and i consider jesus to be one of the most moral of human beings to have lived in fact i darn near idolize the guy but there s no rational reason for me to except god s existence please rethink this last paragraph if there is no god which seems to be your current belief then jesus was either a liar or a complete nut because not only did he assert that god exists but he claimed to be god himself regards to c s lewis how then could you have the least bit of respect for jesus in conclusion be careful about logically unfounded hypotheses based on gut feelings about the text and other scholars unsubstantiated claims the bible pleads that we take it in its entirety or throw the whole book out about your reading of the bible not only does the spirit inspire the writers but he guides the reader as well we cannot understand it in the least without the spirit s guidance for to us god revealed them through the spirit for the spirit searches all things even the depths of god cor nas peace and may god guide us in wisdom carter c page of happiness the crown and chiefest part is wisdom a carpenter s apprentice and to hold god in awe this is the law that cpage seas upenn edu seeing the stricken heart of pride brought down we learn when we are old adapted from sophocles other theologians get quite annoyed at the misleadingess of god breathed it s true that the greek word has as its roots god and breath however etymology doesn t necessarily tell you what a word means otherwise goodbye would be a religious expression since it comes from god be with ye you have to look at how the word was actually used in this case the word is used for wisdom or dreams that come from god but god breathed is an overtranslation clh
soc.religion.christian	re salvation by deeds another guess to your salvation riddle would be saved joe fisher
soc.religion.christian	re deification in article apr athos rutgers edu holfeltz lstc vm stortek com writes aaron bryce cardenas writes after all what does prophesy mean secondly what is an apostle answer an especial witness one who is suppose to be a personal witness that means to be a true apostle one must have christ appear to them now lets see when did the church quit claiming actually an apostle is someone who is sent if you will mailmen could be called apostles in that sense however with jesus they were designated and were given power remember that there were many thousands of people who witnessed what jesus did that didn t make them apostles though joe fisher
soc.religion.christian	re revelations he doesn t contradict himself the church is to last for all time however there are those who use the church to bolster themselves this is evident in many letters for instance paul talks about the super apostles to the corinthians corinthians he mentions how people will be led away by miracles signs and wonders thessalonians he tells timothy that it is clear that some will abandon the faith and teach lies timothy and that some will search for teachers to suit what they want to hear timothy such passages go throughout the letters and jesus does warn about them matthew but look at the promise in this last part verse and this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations and then the end will come even today there are false teachings i can name two which i am well familiar with the non need of baptism and the praying of jesus into your life for salvation both are taught both are dead wrong they have been taken out of context from some verses interpreted from others and just plain made up the only way jesus taught is given in luke and luke he then commands baptism in matthew the church jesus founded though is alive and well it s not being persecuted as much as back then the laws won t allow it yet but it is being persecuted joe fisher peace lou lou nunez e mail lnunez vaxa stevens tech edu ps ps dn ml ad altare dei ad deum qui laetificat juventutem meam cor mt cor luke
soc.religion.christian	re ancient books of course i d still recommend that michael read true and reasonable by douglas jacoby joe fisher oh and michael i wait to see any dents in any armor and my faith hasn t wavered since the day i became a disciple you may want to try it sometime it s life changing
soc.religion.christian	re sin sorry for taking this off of sharon s resp but i d also like to add some more verses to that and perhaps answer the second q verses corinthians colossians as for knowing when that s a bit tricky people normally have consciences which warn them about it however as in my case a conscience can be hardened by sin s deceitfulness hebrews so that the person has no idea or doesn t care about it that they are sinning of course there are those sins which we do when we don t know that they re sinful to begin with those take searching and examining of scripture to find out that they are sinful and then repent and change the best question to ask in every circumstance to judge sinful possibilities is would jesus wholeheartedly do this at this point in time i know it sounds like a cop out but it truly is a stifling question joe fisher oh i missed one john
soc.religion.christian	re unity in article apr athos rutgers edu maarten van loon cwi nl maarten van loon writes hello fellow netters and fellow christians about the subject of unity between christians and christian churches to a bible study group alltough i do have a personal opinion on this issue i thought it would be nice to hear opinions of fellow christian brothers and sisters from different countries and in different situations my background member of a orthodox reformed church let us say a little the only unity i ve found which is true is when all parties involved are disciples i came out of a church in which even the different congregations were always competing and arguing about which one was better and who had the better messages while none of them put anything into practice from those messages since becoming a disciple i ve found that when i travel to another church in the same movement they are just as accepting there as any other we had a retreat back in january when some of the congregation from louisville ky came up this retreat was for college students and it was as though i had known even the people from louisville for years and i had only become a disciple the previous april and had never been to the church in kentucky one of the keys to unity is unselfish love and self sacrifice that is only one area in which disciples stand out from christians also another part of unity is a common depth of conviction i ve also been a part of some christian campus fellowships who were focused on unity between churches and saw that those churches had one thing involved a lack of conviction about everything they believed that was why they could be unified they didn t care about the truth but delighted in getting along together the problem here in the netherlands is that there are two other churches denominations with the same characteristics both have the same confessions there are only some differences with respect to for example the matter of appropriation of salvation and how to use our creeds in essence a lot of people of these three churches have to same faith and feel that they should become one church but how that is the question creeds what need is there of creeds when the bible stands firmly better so here is a first question can the congregation of christ be separated by walls of different denominations or is this definitely an untolerable situation according to the scriptures according to the scriptures splits and differences of opinion are going to be there as per a previous note i mentioned that there are those who teach falsely by many means there are also differences of opinion and belief however scripture states in the following directives i have no praise for you for your meetings do more harm than good in the first place i hear that when you come together as a church there re divisions among you and to some extent i believe it no doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have god s approval corinthians how will god show his approval by fruitfulness see acts but before that there are these qualities devotion to the apostles teaching fellowship communion filling with awe for god all having everything in common glad and sincere hearts praising god enjoying the favor of the people all these are mentioned in acts god also shows that those who have these qualities are persecuted look at stephen a man full of faith and of the holy spirit acts who was later stoned acts can one say that only one of these three churches is the true church of jesus christ one can say that a church is the true church only if that church is perfect not only in the congregation but worldwide as a movement i have yet to find that but the closest one i ve found is the boston church of christ movement which constantly strives to have errors pointed out and corrected it is also the only one i ve seen which is totally sold out to god a problem closely related to these question is can we cooperate with other christians from these two churches before there is a unity this question is especially important for those who think that only one church can be the true one as for cooperation that can always occur unity on the other hand may never occur as for those who think about only one church being the true one i remind them that mark states that there are disciples who are not a part of the main group to begin with but they will not lose their reward as with the boston movement i ve heard numerous times this exact same thing that there are disciples out there that are not a part of the boston movement but that does not make them any less disciples of course few people admit that they ve ever run into someone who has the qualities of a disciple outside the movement i know i haven t maybe this last problem sounds a little strange to most of you for your information we have a lot of organizations here which are founded by people of one specific church and whose members are all members of that church this has been considered as correct for years only a few years ago people started to discuss about this and now we are in the middle of this process some organizations are opening their doors for people from other churches etc i must warn that this sounds cliquey to me a clique is a group which runs around together to some extent exclusively this causes problems in fellowship and causes divisions i would not say at all that this is something correct for a church group to do for any reason in one of the churches i attended for example there was an internal clique of people who were on the different groups committees organizational heads of the congregation they rarely talked to anyone else outside of the committees and seldom were voted out of office without another office being opened up so that they would have to step right back in their degree of exclusion was such that when the new pastor came he nearly had to wipe out everything and start from scratch i wish he would ve since they still have no clue about what it means to be a disciple anyway this rigidity in the clique is beginning to be broken down but is still there so i must warn against such division within there s enough division without thanks for your opinions in advance maarten joe fisher
soc.religion.christian	re weirdness of early christians were the early christians weird yes so were their non christian contemporaries the more familiar you are with late republican rome or the pricipate the weirder those people will seem forget the creative filtering done by renaissance and eighteenth century hero worship so are modern non christians and christians you are pretty weird yourself with your rather acid dismissal of luther and of protestantism and in apparently buying into a simplistic propaganda model about catholicism not being faddish sure it s so large that global fads take longer cycles than they do in smaller denominations and local ones are not usually visible unless you do a lot of traveling to exotic lands may i recom mend as a salutary antidote to this nonsense philippe aries book the hour of our death a longitudinal study of death customs in western specifically catholic christendom and it won t help to escape into the obscurity of the first christian century paul was pretty weird too as were peter and the others in the apparently quite weird circle around jesus what i think you might find helpful is a bit more charity try to understand these weirdos and nutcases with the same respect and love you would expect others to show your notions we are commanded to love one another after all and brown s book is in fact a heroic attempt to see the groupings he talks about as motivated in love and the gospel and their social contexts if anything brown is too heroic here he manages to overstrain himself at times i don t suggest that we follow any of these old cult paths and it raises hard questions from the skeptic inside me that so much of early christianity was like the weird christian and non christian cults we see today to that extent i think you raise a serious problem and perhaps your phrasing is implicitly self deprecatory and ironic but the first principle for answering these questions is respect and love for those we do not understand and it helps to work at under standing as long as we do not get overwhelmed by revulsion and begin to withdraw our respect for them as people i would advise in other words more historical reading brown s other books are also good most especially his bio of augustine also try robin lane fox s christians and pagans maybe the paul veyne ed history of private life some of foucault s books on sexuality in the ancient world humanity is weird we have known one sane person and we killed him fortunately for us this has proved a comedy rather than a tragedy easter yes this is a tad early our vigil service here has been moved forward because so many churches in the area have taken to doing their own vigils and the seminarians must therefore worship and run if they are to do it here and there as well think of this as an anglican fad michael l siemon we must know the truth and we must mls ulysses att com love the truth we know and we must or act according to the measure of our love mls panix com thomas merton
soc.religion.christian	confession communion apr david cruz uribe writes to all dc also what is orthodox practice regarding communion i read dc a throw away remark someplace that the orthodox receive less dc frequently than catholics do but was is their current practice dc have their been any variations historically i think orthodox practice varies from place to place from parish to parish and from jurisdiction to jurisdiction in some parishes here in south africa the only ones who receive communion are infants i e children under in our parish it is expected that one will have been to vespers and confessional prayers the evening before and that one will have been fasting as we have to travel km to the church we don t receive communion every sunday but about every third sunday steve golded
soc.religion.christian	sin apr jill anne daley writes to all jad what exactly is a definition of sin and what are some examples how does jad a person know when they are committing sin to answer briefly sin is falling short of the glory of god romans steve golded
soc.religion.christian	pantheism environmentalism apr susan harwood kaczmarczik writes to all we suspect that s because one party to the environmental dispute thinks the earth is sanctified it s clear that much of the environmentalist energy is derived from what has been called the religious left a secular or even pagan fanaticism that now worships such gods as nature and gender with a reverence formerly accorded real religions emphasis mine shk first of all secular and pagan are not synonyms pagan which is shk derived from the latin paganus means of the country it is in shk fact a cognate with the italian paisano which means peasant shk paganism among other things includes a reverence for the planet and shk all life on the planet stemming from the belief that all life is shk interconnected so rather than be something secular it is something shk very sacred i would go further and say that much of the damage to the environment has been caused by the secular worldview or by the humanist worldview and especially by the secular humanist worldview this is not to say that all secular humanists are necessarily avid destroyers of the environment and i am sure that there are many who are concerned about the environment but at the time of the renaissance and ref ormation in western europe man became the centre or the focus of culture hence humanism this consciousness was also secular in the sense that it was concerned primarily with the present age r ather than the age to come capitalism arose at the same time and the power of economics became central in philosophy this doesn t mean that economics did not exist before simply that it began to dominate the conscious cultural values of western european society and its offshoots this cultural shift was in its later stages accompanied by industrial revolutions and the values that justified them there was a fundamental cultural shift in the meaning of economics from the christian view of man as the economos the steward of creation to the secular idea of man as the slave of economic forces and powers there were denominational differences among the new worshippers of mammon for some the name of the deity was the free rein of the market mechanism while for others it was the dialectical forces of history but in both the capitalist west and the socialist east the environment was sacrificed on the altar of mammon the situation was mitigated in the west because thos e who were concerned about the damage to the environment had more freedom to oppose what was happening and state their case steve golded
soc.religion.christian	re ancient books cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes if i talk with an atheist and tell him the new testament is an historically reliable document what reasons would i give him i have found that this isn t a very effective argument most atheists are perfectly willing to acknowledge the existence and ministry of jesus but are quite capable of rationalizing the miracles and the resurrection into misunderstandings hoaxes or simple fabrications they can always make an analogy with the iliad a book that tells the story of the historical trojan war but also talks about gods and goddesses and their conversations i don t think it s possible to convince atheists of the validity of christianity through argument we have to help foster faith and an understanding of god i could be wrong are there any former atheists here who were led to christianity by argument alan terlep incestuous vituperousness oakland university rochester mi atterlep vela acs oakland edu melissa eggertsen rushing in where angels fear to tread
soc.religion.christian	re revelations hudson athena cs uga edu paul hudson jr writes biblical prophecy tends to be somewhat cyclical for example the virgin prophecy of isaiah also prophecied of christ how does this apply to the book of revelation in regard to the perterist view much of the ot prophecies have a double application to the jewish captivity and to the end of time but if rev is dated at ad its prophecies could not apply to the ad destructioin of jerusalem darius
soc.religion.christian	re prayer in jesus name in article apr athos rutgers edu munns cae wisc edu scott munns writes i am doing a dormitory bible discussion with my christian roommate and in jesus name what about the people before jesus they prayed to god and he listened then in spite of their sins why can t it be the same way now insert huge deletion of all following material since it had little relevance to what i ve found ok the people before jesus didn t have jesus right so far i ve announced that space is a vacuum the people who lived during the time jesus lived especially disciples were taught this i tell you the truth anyone who has faith in me will do what i have been doing he will do even greater things than these because i am going to the father and i will do whatever you ask in my name so that the son may bring glory to the father you may ask me for anything in my name and i will do it john so jesus asked them to pray for things in his name since that time the request has been the same not to ask for intercession from other beings but from jesus remember that there is one god and one mediator between god and men the man christ jesus who gave himself as a ransom for all men the testimony given in its proper time timothy also there have been many of those priests talking about priests among the hebrews since death prevented them from continuing in office but because jesus lives forever he has a permanent priesthood therefore he is able to save completely those who come to god through him because he always lives to intercede for them hebrews hebrews is also full of areas talking about jesus being our mediator rather than any other man joe fisher the people before jesus didn t have jesus right may not be as obvious as you think in what sense to you mean didn t have christian thought has generally said that they had jesus in the sense that they were saved by his death god is not bound by our chronology so in some real spiritual sense they did have jesus even in terms of knowledge while they surely didn t have the explicit knowledge that we have christians have normally seen messianic prophecy as knowledge of jesus even if knowledge from afar clh
soc.religion.christian	the empty tomb the empty tomb can we trust it by the late wilbur m smith d d when jesus was on earth he made an amazing prediction about himself and frequently repeated it let me quote it for you behold we go up to jerusalem and the son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes and they shall condemn him to death and shall deliver him to the gentiles to mock and to scourge and to crucify him and the third day he shall rise again matthew wholly different from the normal experience of men jesus who had never done anything worthy of death even deserving reproval knew he would die before he was years of age he knew the very city where he would die he knew that the religious leaders of his own race would condemn him to death he knew that one of his own would betray him he knew that before his actual death took place he would be mocked and scourged he knew exactly how he would die by crucifixion all this is in itself remarkable but more amazing than the minute particulars of his foreknowledge was what he predicted would follow shortly after he was buried that he would rise again he even designated the time on the third day but since it is on this central fact the death and resurrec tion of jesus christ that the whole truth or untruth of chris tianity turns let us examine it more closely the body of jesus was embalmed in long sheets of cloth between the layers of which a great abundance of spices and ointments was distributed the body was placed in a tomb which had never before been used and a great stone was rolled against the entrance the jewish authorities fully aware that jesus had predicted he would rise again had the stone officially sealed and on saturday placed a guard before the tomb to prevent the disciples from carrying away the body early sunday morning some of the women who were faithful followers of christ went out to the tomb to further anoint the body to their utter astonishment they found the stone rolled away the body gone they rushed back to tell the disciples shortly two of jesus friends peter and john utterly skeptical about the whole affair came and found the tomb empty just as the women had said even the guards came hurrying into the city to tell the sanhedrin that had hired them to guard the tomb that the body was gone matthew how did this tomb become empty one of the most famous new testament scholars in america professor of new testament literature in a large theological seminary wrote to the author in answer to my question of how the tomb became empty and wrote it in a letter not marked by bitterness or sarcasm that he could no more explain how the tomb became empty than he could explain how santa claus comes down the chimney at christmas time but he didn t realize that santa clause never did come down any chimney at christmas time because there never was a santa claus and there is a jesus he died he was buried in the tomb of joseph of arimathea and on sunday the body was gone those are facts of history no one can escape the responsi bility of coming to some conclusion about what really happened by mentioning a myth we all abandoned before we were eight years old another professor dr kirsopp lake of harvard university tried to explain the empty tomb by saying what no other scholar in the field of new testament criticism has ventured to adopt that the women went to the wrong tomb the facts are these first so far as we know there was no other tomb nearby to which by mistake they could have gone second it is contrary to all similar experience for three or more people to forget the place where they have buried their dearest loved one within less than three days even if the women did miss the tomb when peter and john came did they too go to the wrong tomb third were the soldiers guarding the wrong tomb there is of course a record of an attempt to escape the evidence of the empty tomb in the new testament itself now when they were going behold some of the watch came into the city and showed unto the chief priests all the things that were done and when they were assembled with the leaders and had taken counsel they gave large money unto the soldiers saying say ye his disciples came by night and stole him away while we slept and if this come to the governor s ears we will persuade him and secure you so they took the money and did as they were taught and this saying is com monly reported among the jews until this day matthew this is a good illustration of many later attempts to escape the fact that the tomb was empty you will notice at once that the chief priests and the elders never questioned but that the tomb was empty they never even went out to see if what the guards had reported was true they knew it was true another fact about this story makes it ridiculous to maintain that the tomb was empty the soldiers were told to say that jesus disciples came and stole the body away while they the soldiers were asleep how could they know what was going on while they were asleep obviously such testimony would be valueless in any court even aside from the shallowness and sordidness that make us reject the explanation the very character and the later history of the disciples compel us to believe they did not steal and secretly carry away the body of jesus first as professor heffern points out the leaders of judaism in jerusalem who had put the lord jesus to death had nothing to offer to contradict these disciples as they continued to preach jesus and his resurrection because all jerusalem knew the tomb was empty if there had been trickery here sooner or later it would have been suspected then proved second surely one of the disciples even most of them would have confessed the fraud under the terrific persecution they underwent it may be possible to live a lie but men seldom die for a lie and most of these men did the result ultimately would have been that the message that christ had risen would have suffered the fate of all such unfounded stories it would have lost it power instead this truth swept the world closed pagan temples won millions of disciples brought hope to a despairing humanity was the very foundation truth of the early church and is today as believable and as freshly glorious as ever but not only did jesus come alive again he did not disappear to leave the disciples speculating through all the subsequent days as to what had happened to him instead he appeared to them literally visibly frequently he appeared to the women at the tomb on resurrection morning matthew later that day to mary magdalene alone john and to simon peter also alone luke in the afternoon he walked with two of his followers toward emmaus luke and that night he appeared to ten of the apostles gathered together in an upper room at jerusalem mark luke etc a week later he appeared to all eleven of the apostles probably at the same place john once he was seen by above brethren on a mountain in galilee i corinthians and finally to the apostles just before his ascension mark luke acts as with the fact of the empty tomb so in regard to these histor ically recorded appearances all kinds of theories have been proposed attempting to deny their literalness but these theories are unreasonable without supporting evidence none has ever won the unanimous approval of those who refuse to believe in the reality of the appearances moreover while it is true we are living in an age when may of our leading scientists and agnostics and many of our philosophers are antisuperanaturalistic let us not forget that some of the greatest thinkers of the ages have firmly believed in this great miracle increase mather president of harvard timothy dwight president of yale nathan lord president of dartmouth edward hitchcock president of amherst mark hopkins president of williams john witherspoon president of princeton these men and countless others have believed it but suppose christ did rise from the dead what of it what has it to do with my life what has it to do with your life just this it seals with certitude the teachings of christ jesus taught many great truths especially many about himself he claimed to have come down from god he said he was the way to god he said he was the son of god who alone knew god perfectly he said that whoever believed on him had eternal life and no one else had it he said that whatever we ask god in his name he would grant it to us thus when he did rise from the grave on the third day he revealed that in these amazing unparalleled predictions he spoke the truth do you know any reason any good reason why we should not believe that his words are all true the point is does not the truth of the resurrection convince us that he is none other than the one he claimed to be the son of god and then of course the fact that christ rose from the dead testifies that he has broken the power of death and that he will some day raise us also up from the grave as he promised in other words if this person jesus christ the son of god in all this he should be the cornerstone of the foundation of your life for he said a life built on him would know forgiveness of sins his compan ionship and help a joy that no circumstances can ever take away and a hope that shineth more and more unto a perfect day those who have tried it down through the ages and there have been many have given their testimony and we today who believe also know
soc.religion.christian	re old vs new testament rexlex fnal fnal gov writes we can jillustrate this by pointing to the way god administers his judgment in the ot sins were not forgiven but rather covered up in the age of the church not only are sins forgiven taken away but the power of sin is put to death my this distinction seems quite arbitrary blessed is the man whose iniquities are forgiven whose sin is covered ps and quoted by the apostle paul even as david also describeth the blessedness of the man unto whom god imputeth righteousness without works saying blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven and whose sins are covered blessed is the man to whom the lord will not impute sin rom the biblical perspective seems to be that foregiveness and covering are parallel equivalent concepts in both testaments the dispensational distinction is unwarranted during the millenium we read that sins are dealt with immediately under the present ie that christ is present on earth rulership of christ i m sure rex has scripture to back this up you re suggesting jesus is going to travel around dealing with individual violations of his law for millions perhaps billions of people such activity for moses the lawgiver was considered unwise cf ex ff it makes for interesting speculation though i ll leave comments on the so called bema seat vs throne judgments to someone else this also seems like more unnecessary divisions ala dispensationalism tom albrecht
soc.religion.christian	re christ references in ot adam i just finished a study on this not only looking at the prophecies themselves but where they were fulfilled while going only through the ot i found references after starting to show their fulfillment i found out that i had missed some so needless to say i cannot post them here however the study i did i intend to publish i am in the process of organizing and showing the fulfillments then i will be ready to write and send it to a publisher with any luck and or free time i should have it finally done sometime around september i hope joe fisher
soc.religion.christian	re a question that has bee bothering me wquinnan sdcc ucsd edu malcusco writes especially as we approach a time when scientists are trying to match god s ability to create life we should use the utmost caution i question the implications of this statement namely that there are certain physical acts which are limited to god and that attempting to replicate these acts is blasphemy against god god caused a bush to burn without being consumed if i do the same thing am i usurping god s role religious people are threatened by science because it has been systematically removing the physical proofs of god s existence as time goes on we have to rely more and more on faith and the spiritual world to relate to god becuase science is removing our props i don t think this is a bad thing alan terlep incestuous vituperousness oakland university rochester mi atterlep vela acs oakland edu melissa eggertsen rushing in where angels fear to tread
soc.religion.christian	re pantheism environmentalism by cleveland freenet edu gary v cavano writes does anybody out there see the current emphasis on the environment being turned unintentionally of course into pantheism i ve debated this quite a bit and while i think a legitimate concern for the planet is a great thing i can easily see it being perverted into something dangerous many pagans are involved in environmentalism this is only natural since respect for the earth is a fundamental tenet of all pagan denominations this doesn t mean that environmentalism is wrong any more than supporting peace in the middle east is wrong because jews and muslims also work for it nonetheless paganism is certainly on the rise and we as christians should address this and look at what draws people from paganism to christianity like it or not pagan religions are addressing needs that christianity should be and isn t i believe that paganism has hit upon some major truths that christianity has forgotten this doesn t mean that paganism is right but it does mean that we have something to learn from the pagan movement first paganism respects the feminine christianity has a long history of oppressing women and many if not most male christians are still unable to live in a non sexist manner the idea that god is sexless or that christ could have been a women and still accomplished his mission is met with a great deal of resistance this insistance on a male dominated theology and the male dominated society that goes with it drives away many young women who have had to put up with sexist attitudes in their churches second paganism respects the physical world this is an idea with great ramifications one of these is environmentalism respect for our surroundings and our world another is integration of sexuality christianity has a long tradition of calling all sexual feeelings sinful and urging people to suppress and deny their sexuality this is too much sex is clearly a part of human experience and attempting to remove it is simply not a feasible option christianity has only begun to develop a workable sexual ethic and paganism is an attractive option i m not advocating that christian doctrines no sex before marriage etc should be changed just that christians work toward a more moderate ethic of sexuality denial of sexuality places as much emphasis on sex as unmoderated sexuality and neither one does much to bring us closer to god alan terlep incestuous vituperousness oakland university rochester mi atterlep vela acs oakland edu melissa eggertsen rushing in where angels fear to tread
soc.religion.christian	re opinions asked about rejection here s how i talk to non christians who are complaining about hell me do you believe you re going to heaven him i don t believe in heaven me so are you going there him if there was a heaven i would me but since there isn t a heaven you re not going there are you him no the point is that heaven is based on faith if you don t believe in heaven there s no way you re going to be in it of course the next step is i don t believe in hell either so why will i be there it seems to me that hell is eternal death and seperation from god most atheists do believe that when they die they will die forever and never see god so they do in fact believe that they re going to hell hell doesn t have to be worse than earth to be hell because it s eternal and it s a lot worse than heaven that s the only comparison that matters alan terlep incestuous vituperousness oakland university rochester mi atterlep vela acs oakland edu melissa eggertsen rushing in where angels fear to tread
soc.religion.christian	re the arrogance of christians i d like to share my thoughts on this topic of arrogance of christians and look forward to any responses in my encounters with christians i find myself dismayed by their belief that their faith is total truth according to them their beliefs come from the bible and the bible is the word of god and god is truth thus they know the truth this stance makes it difficult to discuss other faiths with them and my own hesitations about christianity because they see no other way their way is the truth but i see their faith arising from a willful choice to believe a particular way that choice is part faith and part reason but it seems to me a choice my discussions with some christians remind me of schoolyard discussions when i was in grade school a kid would say all policemen are jerks i d ask how do you know because my daddy told me so how do you know you re daddy is right he says he s always right well the argument usually stops right there in the end aren t we all just kids groping for the truth if so do we have the authority to declare all other beliefs besides our own as false this is only my third time browsing through this newsgroup i apologize if i m covering tired old ground some of the discussions on this topic have piqued my interest and i welcome any comments louis j kim o ph southwest research institute fax post office drawer lkim swri edu san antonio tx compuserve com i m sort of mystified about how a christian might respond to this i can understand criticisms of christianity that say there s not enough evidence to believe it or that there s just as good evidence for other religions i don t agree but clearly there are plenty of intelligent people who don t find the evidence convincing but that doesn t seem to be your point rather you seem upset that people who believe christianity is true also believe that things which contradict it are false this suggests a model of spiritual things that s rather different than the christian one it sounds more like an existentialist view where people choose what value to follow but there s no actual independent spiritual reality and so no way to say that a specific choice is in some unique sense right this sort of model with modifications of one sort or another may be appropriate for some religions but christianity is in its essense a historical religion that is it s based on the concept that there are actual spiritual entities out there that one of them has intervened in history in specific ways and that we see evidence of that in history in the mundane world we are not free to choose how things work when we drop something it falls aside from well defined situations where it doesn t the christian concept is that spiritual matters there is also an actual external reality i hope we re all honest enough not to claim that we have perfect understanding but while we may not think we know everything we are confident that we know some things and that implies that we think things that contradict them are false i don t see how else we could proceed this needn t result in arrogance i m certainly interested in talking with people of other religions they may have things to teach me and even if they don t i respect them as fellow human beings but it s got to be possible to respect people and also think that on some matters they are wrong maybe even disasterously wrong clh
soc.religion.christian	re revelations phil launchbury almac co uk phil launchbury writes the apostate church of revelation most likely refers to the st century jews who rejected their messiah and had him crucified john refers to them i m afraid not it refers to the church that christ founded many many times he warns that the church will fall away into heresy as do the apostles for an example look at the parables in matthew they refer to the kingdom of heaven the church and the process of how they will be corrupted sorry but i think this interpretation of the matthew parables is nonsense i e yeast always stands for sin corruption heresy for example beware of the yeast of the pharisees matthew explains that by leaven of the pharisees jesus was simply referring to their teaching not sin corruption heresy jesus gaves his apostles the keys of the kingdom and said that the gates of hell would not prevail against his church tom albrecht
soc.religion.christian	environmentalism and paganism i would like to see christians devote a bit less effort to bashing paganism and more to figuring out how to present the gospel to pagans christ is the answer the pagans have a lot of the right questions unlike materialists who deny the need for any spirituality michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
soc.religion.christian	re the arrogance of christians in article apr athos rutgers edu dleonar andy bgsu edu pixie writes in article apr athos rutgers edu pardon me a humble atheist but exactly what is the difference between holding a revealed truth with blind faith as its basis i e regardless of any evidence that you may find to the contrary as an absolute truth fully expecting people to believe you and arrogance they sound like one and the same to me pixie p s if you do sincerely believe that a god exists why do you follow it blindly why do we follow god so blindly have you ever asked a physically blind person why he or she follows a seeing eye dog the answer is quite simple the dog can see and the blind person cannot i acknowledge as a christian that i am blind i see but i see illusions as well as reality watched tv lately i hear but i hear lies as well as truth listen to your radio or read a newspaper remember all that tastes well is not healthy so i rely one the one who can see hear and taste everything and knows what is real and what is not that is god of course you may ask if i cannot trust my own senses how do i know whether what i see and hear about god is truth or a lie that is why we need faith to be saved we must force ourselves to believe that god knows the truth and loves us enough to share it with us even when it defies what we think we know why would he have created us if he did not love us enough to help us through this world i also do trust my experiences to some extent when i do things that defy the seeming logic of my experience because it is what my father commands me to do and i see the results in the long term i find that he has led me in the proper direction even though it did not feel right at the time this is where our works as christians are important as exercises of the body make the body strong excercises of faith make the faith strong as for you no one can convert you you must choose to follow god of your own will if you are ever to follow him all we as christians wish to do is share with you the love we have received from god if you reject that we have to accept your decision although we always keep the offer open to you if you really want to find out why we believe what we believe i can only suggest you try praying for faith reading the bible and asking christians about their experiences personally then you may grow to understand why we believe what we do in defiance of the logic of this world may the lord bring peace to you malcusco
soc.religion.christian	re pantheism environmentalism in article apr athos rutgers edu by cleveland freenet edu gary v cavano writes i m new to this group and maybe this has been covered already but does anybody out there see the current emphasis on the environment being turned unintentionally of course into pantheism yes i am adamantly an environmentalist i will not use styrofoam table service please keep that in mind as you read this post i do not wish to attack environmentalism a half truth is at least as dangerous as a complete lie a complete lie will rarely be readily accepted while a half truth the lie subtly hidden is more powerfully offered by one who masquerades as an angel of light satan has for some people loosened the grip on treating the earth as something other than god s intricate handiwork something other than that on which the health of future generations is based it is being treated with respect you think he s going to happily leave it at that no when one error is rejected it is his style to push people to the opposite error therefore the earth is not god s intricate handiwork not because it is rubbish but because it is god mother earth is the one you are to primarily love and serve i see two facets of a response to it care for the environment treat it with proper respect both because it is god s intricate handiwork and the health of future generation and because showing the facet of one who is disregardful of such things does not constitute what the apostle paul called becoming all things to all men so that by all possible means i might save some don t say forget the environment i ve got important things to spend my time on putting your foot in your mouth in this manner will destroy your credibility in expressing the things that are more important show that it is not the ultimate entity that it is creature and not creator show that its beauty and glory points to a greater beauty and glory show that it is not the ultimate tapestry but one of many cords woven in the infinite tapestry god give me mountains but the greatest jonathan hayward to climb and the of these is love jonathan hayward wheaton edu strength for climbing i corinthians jhayward imsa edu
soc.religion.christian	re did he really rise i don t understand who this post is directed towards who are you trying to convince by its subject i would assume you are directing the argument towards people who do not believe that christ rose from the dead but in your proof you use the bible exclusively the post is therefore immediately useless to anyone who doesn t believe that the bible is an unadulterated truth and to everyone else it is just a reaffirmation of a belief already held as far as i know there is no disagreement between christians over the resurrection of christ so my question is what is the purpose of this post tomas because no battle is ever won he said they are not even fought the field only reveals to man his own folly and despair and victory is an illusion of philosophers and fools william faulkner
soc.religion.christian	re accepting jeesus in your heart in article apr athos rutgers edu gsu uxa ecn bgu edu eric molas writes i was raised in a religious atmosphere and attended years of religious educational institutions i know the bible well so well i can recognize many passages from memory stuff deleted for brevity christianity is an infectious cult the reasons it flourishes are because it gives people without hope or driven purpose in life a safety blanked to hide behind oh wow all i have to do is follow this christian moral standard and i get eternal happiness for all of you found jeezus how many of you were on the brink your very starting point is wrong christianity is not based on following a moral standard for it is by grace you have been saved through faith not by works so that no man may boast eph you say that you know the bible well and can recognize do you mean recite many passages from memory that could very well be so however it looks like there are a few more passages that you should pay attention to titus and james are among them obedience to the moral law is imporant however it is supposed to be the result of turning your life over to christ and becoming a christian it is by no means the starting point virgilio dean velasco jr department of electrical eng g and applied physics cwru graduate student roboticist in training and q wannabee bullwinkle that man s intimidating a referee my boss is a not very well he doesn t look like one at all jewish carpenter
soc.religion.christian	re prophetic warning to new york city note reply to a message in soc religion christian evenson thomas randall wrote in a message to all which brings me around to asking an open question is the bible a closed book of scripture is it okay for us to go around saying god told me this and jesus told me that also interesting to note is that some so called prophecies are nothing new but rather an inspired translation of scripture is it right to call that prophecy misleading hi you might want to read charismatic chaos by john macarthur in it he discussed exactly this queation amongst others in my own words very simplified his position is basically that one must decide what is the most important experience or scripture people tend to say scripture without living according to that their own feeling prophecy etc tends to be put across without testing in the light of scripture there s a lot more than this really worthwhile to read whether you re charismatic or not groetnis cheers deon timed b internet deon strydom f n z fidonet org via the catalyst bbs in port elizabeth south africa catpe alt za hst or v bis hst
soc.religion.christian	ethics vs freedom being a parent in need of some help i ask that you bear with me while i describe the situation which plagues me i am a divorced father chance would have it that my weekend with my daughter has fallen upon easter weekend this year although i am presbyterian i had married a catholic woman we decided that the catholic moray of indoctrination of the spouse into the faith was too confining and restrictive due to time as we had already set a date and we were married in a christian church which was non denominational during the years of our marriage we did not often attend church when our daughter was born some years later my wife insisted that she be baptised as catholic this wasn t a problem with me during a separation of five years my ex wife was taken ill with a disease that affected her mental capacities she was confined to a mental ward for two months before it was diagnosed it has since been treated effectively in other words professionals have deemed her a functioning member of society during the recuperation my ex wife has embraced buddism her influence over my daughter has been substantial and has primarily allowed me only saturday visitation for a number of years during this period i have read bible study books to my daughter and tried to keep her aware of her christian heritage last fall our divorce was finalized after a year of viscious divorce hearings at that time i was awarded visitation rights every other weekend at that time i started taking my daughter to church quite often although not every weekend i did this to attempt to strengthen the christian ethic and expose her to a religious community today easter sunday i took my daughter to church when it came time for communion my daughter took the bread the body of christ but left the wine the blood of christ professing that she was too young for wine she then balled the bread up in her hand and tried to descretely throw it under the pew in front of us i feel this was a slap in the face to me my religion and an afront to her religious heritage it can be construed as breaking several of the commandments if you try i really felt dishonored by the action my daughter is only nine years old but i think she should have been old and mature enough to realize her actions i have difficulty blaming her directly for religious teachings her mother swears to but when i discussed this with my daughter she made it clear she believed in buddhism and not christianity my initial response of anger moderated was to suggest if there is no faith in christ then why does she celebrate easter or christmas i suggested i would never force her to practice my religious beliefs by celebrating holidays with her again i do not want to drive her from the fold and would be willing to allow her to continue practicing buddhism as though i had a choice seeing her only for two days out of fourteen but i want her to want to embrace christianity any suggestions if you have a response please e mail me a copy i m not a regular reader of this newsgroup naturally feel free to post too thanks and i hope you ve had a happy easter drew drew watson systems analysis encore computer corp dwatson encore com customer services
soc.religion.christian	re revelations hudson athena cs uga edu paul hudson jr writes now as to the suggestion that all prophecy tends to be somewhat cyclical can you elaborate i m not exactly sure what you mean how does the suggestion relate to isaiah s prophecy of the birth of christ by a virgin i don t see any cycles in that prophecy maybe cyclical is not the best word another example would be the scripture quoted of judas and his bishoprick let another take another example is something that isaiah said of his disciples which is also applied to christ in hebrews the children thou hast given me how does the preterist view account for this phenomenon ah double fulfillment first of all i would say that i m not sure all the prophecies had double fulfillment e g the isaiah prophecy i would say that just because this happens on some occasions does not mean it will occur always especially with regard to nt prophecies the apostles who quoted the ot and applied those passages to jesus were acting as divine messengers and giving the inerrant word of god to the church no one has that authority today no one has the apostolic authority to say that such and such a prophecy has double fulfillment if the imagry of revelation fits with events of the st century it is folly for us to try and make it apply to events centuries later tom albrecht
soc.religion.christian	re easter what s in a name was re new testament double standard moderator this is a replacement for an earlier more clumsily worded submission on the same topic which i submitted a few minutes ago i think we need to distinguish etymology from meaning regardless of how the word easter originated the fact is that it does not now mean anything to christians other than the feast day of the resurrection of jesus christ the meaning of a word is only what people understand it to mean and the same goes for other cultural practices the festival of easter may possibly have some historical association with some pagan festival but today there are as far as i know no christians who intend to honor any kind of pagan goddess by celebrating easter it is nonsense to say this word or this practice really means so and so even though nobody realizes it words and practices don t mean things people do this is basic semantics i m a linguist they pay me to think about things like this michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi further easter is specific to english in many other languages the word used is based on passover or resurrection is it ok to celebrate it in countries using those languages but not in those using english clh
soc.religion.christian	catholic liturgy the problems with catholic liturgy are likely to continue for some time the problem is in a nutshell this the liturgy is a symbolic action in other words catholics do or should believe that the signs during the mass water blessings vestments altar relics etc are real that is the sprinkling of water bestows real almost tangible holiness the vestments are a real indication of real sacred time the point of a symbol is that it is understood by all to be connected to an underlying real referent this kind of thinking precludes analysis holy water is not holy because of anything it simply is holy but modern westerners find it extremely difficult especially if well educated to think of the mass as a symbol we are more likely to see it as a sign ie an action that represents grace but which could be replaced with other signs in concrete terms this means the mass has become a commercial for god s grace rather than the real thing you can mess around with a commercial in a way you wouldn t dare with the real thing ask coca cola co these attitudes have been encouraged by liturgy workshops etc which instead of focusing on how to do do liturgy have focused on how to create a meaning in liturgy you can only create signs symbols have to come from god or the heart or somewhere deeper than analysis the most dramatic example of this shift in understanding has been in the treatment of the sacred species the consecrated host and wine now with pita bread etc it is common to come away from the altar with hands covered in particles if the host is a sign of grace this isnt and issue but catholics in the past would have been distraught at this real desacration of the real symbol of jesus body modern catholic liturgy is caught in this epistemological shift we try to perfrom the old rites but then we have some liturgomaniac priest get up and explain what we are doing so we stop doing it and start pretending to do it this is not a soul filling experience it doesn t help btw that we have got stuck witha huge amount of two and three chord ersatz folk music again a result of mis analysis complicated tunes are in fact easier to remember than simple ones this was the genius of wesley and the c anglican hymn writers taize is only slightly better what are we to do well i suggest rejecting the parish system if it doesn t work for you search out a church where the liturgy is well prepared not well explained they exist in every city this is not btw a matter of particular style the music might be old or new it is the attitude of the church that counts also note that a conservative liturgy harking back to pre vatican ii days does not necessarily mean the church will be socially conservative in nyc i can recommend corpus christi w st st corpus christi w st st very conservative liturgy st joseph s greenwich village modern clean largely gay oratorian church brooklyn very beautiful avoid anywhere anytime a church with electric candles happy easter christos aneste christos voskrezhne christ is risen paul halsall halsall murray fordham edu
soc.religion.christian	re pantheism environmentalism in article apr athos rutgers edu steve hayes f n z fidonet org writes i realize i m entering this discussion rather late but i do have one question wasn t it a reagan appointee james watt a pentacostal christian i think who was the secretary of the interior who saw no problem with deforestation since we were living in the last days and ours would be the last generation to see the redwoods anyway terrance heath heath athena cs uga edu your comfort is my silence act up fight back talk back
soc.religion.christian	hell atterlep vela acs oakland edu cardinal ximenez wrote here s how i talk to non christians who are complaining about hell me do you believe you re going to heaven him i don t believe in heaven me so are you going there him if there was a heaven i would me but since there isn t a heaven you re not going there are you him no the point is that heaven is based on faith if you don t believe in heaven there s no way you re going to be in it hmmm people in the americas before the time of christ children who die young etc of course the next step is i don t believe in hell either so why will i be there it seems to me that hell is eternal death and seperation from god but of course the popular conception of hell correct or incorrect is something akin to eternal perpetuation of consciousness at the very least most atheists do believe that when they die they will die forever and never see god so they do in fact believe that they re going to hell i think a good number of atheists believe there is nothing beyond bodily death but it is simply an abuse of language to say they believe they re going to hell they believe they re going to die understand that you ve turned hell into a verb using the same logic it also follows that all animals are going to hell are you sure this is what you want to say presumably animals don t have the opportunity to get to heaven but this still doesn t change the fact that they re going to hell die a final death i don t claim to know whether or not there is an afterlife of some sort but if hell is as you described final death and not eternal perpetuation of consciousness it will be true that there will never be a moment when i am aware of my non existence assuming i go to hell and not to heaven in other words i ll never know i m dead hmmm hell doesn t have to be worse than earth to be hell because it s eternal ever hear people say of a loved one who was ill and has died at least she s not suffering any more she s in heaven now consider the following statement at least she s not suffering any more she s in hell now the above statement sounds odd but according to your definition of hell it would be a true statement the person in hell would not be suffering granted they wouldn t be anything wouldn t be having any conscious experience whatsoever you say hell death is eternal however this loses its meaning to a dead person and to me it seems that the threat of some sort of eternal punishment only makes sense has force if one expects to be conscious throughout this eternity many atheists believe that the thirst for an afterlife is simply the product of propaganda friend do you want the free gift of e ternal life it s my understanding that the early jews did not believe in an afterlife can anyone back me up on this combined with the survival instinct all animals share the difference is we have consciousness and once we get the idea of eternal life drilled into our brains we then desire a sort of super survival and it s a lot worse than heaven that s the only comparison that matters that would depend on what heaven is like if god is a king and an eternity in heaven consists of giving thanks and praise to the king i might opt for hell i read a lovely account of a missionary trying to convert eskimos to christianity in the book the illusion of immortality by corliss lamont the missionary started to speak about heaven are there seals in heaven will we be able to go hunting asked an eskimo the missionary said no the group of eskimos then said something to the effect of well what good is your heaven if there s no hunting scram i highly recommend the above book ioi to anyone who wants an account of the other side of the immortality coin that there is no immortality alan terlep incestuous vituperousness oakland university rochester mi atterlep vela acs oakland edu melissa eggertsen rushing in where angels fear to tread pax dana
soc.religion.christian	re the arrogance of christians in article apr athos rutgers edu caralv caralv auto trol com carol alvin writes vbv r d eeap cwru edu virgilio dean b velasco jr writes no imo mr stowell missed the point we affirm the absolutes of scripture not because we are arrogant moralists but because we believe in god who is truth who has revealed his truth in his word and therefore we hold as precious the strategic importance of those absolutes mr stowell seems to have jumped rather strangely from truth to absolutes i don t see how that necessarily follows are all truths also absolutes is all of scripture truths and therefore absolutes if the answer to either of these questions is no then perhaps you can explain to me how you determine which parts of scripture are truths and which truths are absolutes the answer to both questions is yes all scripture is true being inspired by god the evidence for this claim has been discussed ad nauseum in this group similarly all truth is absolute indeed a non absolute truth is a contradiction in terms when is something absolute when it is always true obviously if a truth is not always true then we have a contradiction in terms many people claim that there are no absolutes in the world such a statement is terribly self contradictory let me put it to you this way if there are no absolutes shouldn t we conclude that the statement there are no absolutes is not absolutely true obviously we have a contradiction here this is just one of the reasons why christians defy the world by claiming that there are indeed absolutes in the universe there is hardly consensus even in evangelical christianity not to mention the rest of christianity regarding biblical interpretation so people sometimes disagree about what is true this does not negate the fact however that there are still absolutes in the universe moreover evangelical christianity at least still professes to believe in certain truths man is sinful man needs salvation and jesus is the propitiation for mankind s sins to name a few any group that does not profess to believe these statements cannot be accurately called evangelical virgilio dean velasco jr department of electrical eng g and applied physics cwru graduate student roboticist in training and q wannabee bullwinkle that man s intimidating a referee my boss is a not very well he doesn t look like one at all jewish carpenter
soc.religion.christian	re prodigal son the parable of the prodigal son is not about who is and who isn t an immoral person it is about grace and the love of god most people would agree with that concerning the younger son the elder son is simply a negative example of the some thing he thinks that he must earn his father s love that he has earned it that he is entitled to it his father tells him that he is on the wrong track he has always been loved for the same reason his brother has always been he is his father s son we are too performance oriented to consistently get the point we are willing to be saved by grace but once we are christians we want to go back to earning and deserving are you so foolish after beginning with the spirit are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort gal niv stan armstrong religious studies dept saint mary s university halifax n s armstrong husky stmarys ca att clyde watmath water dalcs armstrng
soc.religion.christian	re did he really rise in article apr athos rutgers edu emery tc fluke com john emery writes the one single historic event that has had the biggest impact on the world over the centuries is the resurrection of jesus at the same time it is one of the most hotly contested topics did jesus christ really rise from the dead since the eyewitnesses are no longer living we have only their written accounts because of the magnitude of significance involved here either the resurrection is the greatest event in the history of man or the greatest deception played on man massive amounts of data deleted john while i will not take the time to rebut you point by point i will suggest three current works which i think will be helpful in your quest to answer this question john dominic crossan professor of religion at de paul univ the cross that spoke harper and row pub also his latest work the historical jesus the life of a mediterranean jewish peasant harper and row pub also two works of burton mack professor of new testament at the claremont graduate school a myth of innocence fortress press and his latest book the lost gospel the book of q and christian origins harper and row you might start with mack s book on q and then examine the others afterward however i think that once you do that you will see that your evidence is not as sturdy as you d like most of the tired arguements you stated assume eyewitness accounts such is not the case but anyway look at mack and crossan and then get back to us randy
soc.religion.christian	re did he really rise in article apr athos rutgers edu luomat alleg edu timothy j luoma writes in article apr athos rutgers edu suppose you were part of the christian consipracy which was going to tell people that christ had risen never mind the stoning the being burned alive the possible crucifixion let s just talk about a scourging the whip that would be used would have broken pottery metal bone and anything else that they could find attached to it you would be stood facing a wall with nothing to protect you scream out in agony that your raw back was being torn at again you would say to yourself all this for a lie and you had more coming at the third hit you would scream out that it was all a lie beg for them to stop and tell them that you would swear on your life that it had all been a lie if they would only stop no one was ever flogged beaten burned fed to the lions or killed in any other way because of a belief in the resurrection sorry to disappoint you the idea of resurrection is one which can be found in a host of different forms in the religions of antiquity the problem was not the resurrection which was a mediorce issue for a tiny fragment of the jewish population the saducees but was a non issues for everyone else the real problem was that christians were pacifist and preached there was only one god when the state operates by a system of divinitation of the emperor monotheism becomes a capital offense the jews were able to get exemption from this and were also not evangelistic christians were far more vocal and gentile and hence dangerous and were therefore targets of persecution also since christians were a relatively powerless group they made good scapegoats as is seen by nero s blaming them for the burning of rome let s not cloud the issues with the resurrection randy i agree with you that christians were not persecuted specifically because they believed in resurrection however the beliefs that did cause trouble were dependent on belief in the resurrection of jesus of course the problem with it is that there are alternatives other than a great conspiracy the most common theory among non christians scholars seems to be that the resurrection was a subjective event in effect a delusion clh
soc.religion.christian	eternity of hell was re hell our moderator writes i m inclined to read descriptions such as the lake of fire as indicating annihilation however that s a minority view it s my personal view but the only denominations i know of that hold it officially are the jw s and sda s i can t find the reference right now but didn t c s lewis speculate somewhere that hell might be the state of once having been a human soul
soc.religion.christian	summer program does anyone know any good decipleship trainning program during min august to end of sept or any missionary programs i currently belong to the missionary alliance church in oregon please reply by mail thanks luom storm cs orst edu
soc.religion.christian	re can sin block our prayers mike boulder snsc unr edu mike mccormick writes not honoring our wives can cause our prayers to be hindered you husbands likewise live with your wives in an understanding way as with a weaker vessel since she is a woman and grant her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life so that your prayers may not be hindered i peter one interpretation i ve heard of this verse is that it refers to the sin of physically abusing one s wife the husband is usually physically stronger than his wife but is not permitted to use this to dominate her he must honor her as his sister in christ this would therefore be an example of a specific sin that blocks prayer this verse also makes me think of the kind of husband who decides what is god s will for his family without consulting his wife god reveals his will to both the husband and the wife there needs to be some degree of mutuality in decision making even those whose understanding of the bible leads to a belief in an authoritarian headship of the husband need to incorporate this in order to have a functional family one way to look at it is that god speaks to the wife through the husband and to the husband through the wife jayne kulikauskas jayne mmalt guild org
soc.religion.christian	atheist s views on christianity was re accepting jeesus in your heart eric damien was presenting his views on christianity i ll respond to a few of his points in article apr athos rutgers edu gsu uxa ecn bgu edu eric molas writes firstly i am an atheist i am not posting here as an immature flame start but rather to express an opinion to my intended audience strong opinions start here the human being is an animal who has due to his her advanced mental facilities developed religion as a satisfiable solution to explain the unexplainable for example the ancient greeks believed that apollo drove his chariot across the sky each day was real due to the advancement of our technology we know this to be false this is certainly a valid objection to religion as explanation of nature fortunately for the convenience of us believers there is a class of questions that can never be reduced away by natural science for example why does the universe exist at all after all the time space world didn t have to exist why does anything exist and is it possible for persons e g man to come into being out of a purely impersonal cosmos these questions which look at the real mysteries of life the creation of the world and of persons provide a permanent indicator that the meaning of life in the material world can only be found outside that world in its source we are just animals we need sleep food and we reproduce and we die religion especially christianity is nothing more than a drug some people use drugs as an escape from reality christians inject themselves with jeezus and live with that high when you say that man is only an animal i have to think that you are presenting an unprovable statement a dogma if you will and one the requires a kind of faith too by taking such a hard line in your atheism you may have stumbled into a religion of your own but before you write off all christianity as phony and shallow i hope you ll do a little research into its history and varieties perhaps by reading paul johnson s a history of christianity from your remarks it seems that you have been exposed to certain types of christian religion and not others even an atheist should have enough faith in man to know that a movement of years has to have some depth and be animated by some enduring values with best wishes richard aquinas chonak norris mit edu usenet addict intp i have very exclusive and nuanced opinions license info available on request
soc.religion.christian	re the arrogance of christians in article apr athos rutgers edu dleonar andy bgsu edu pixie writes pardon me a humble atheist but exactly what is the difference between holding a revealed truth with blind faith as its basis i e regardless of any evidence that you may find to the contrary as an absolute truth fully expecting people to believe you and arrogance they sound like one and the same to me i see no wisdom whatsoever in your words i m not surprised that you see no wisdom in them that is because your premises are wrong from the word go you claim that christianity is based on blind faith but this simply is not so just look at the current thread on the evidence for jesus resurrection for evidence that jesus was real and that he triumphed over death furthermore you say that christians hold to their beliefs regardless of any evidence that you may find to the contrary without any evidence to support your claim this statement is little more than an ad hominem argument mind you i don t mean this as a personal attack i m merely pointing out the intellectual dishonesty behind condemning christianity in this fashion it would make much more sense if you could prove that all christians do base their belief on empty nothings and that they do ignore all evidence to the contrary only then can you expect your attack to make sense virgilio dean velasco jr department of electrical eng g and applied physics cwru graduate student roboticist in training and q wannabee bullwinkle that man s intimidating a referee my boss is a not very well he doesn t look like one at all jewish carpenter
soc.religion.christian	re prophecy on nyc marka travis csd harris com mark ashley writes in soc religion christian you write regarding david wilkerson s prophecies while i m not real sure of his credibility i do remember a book he wrote called a vision or something like that he made a prediction that people who bought gold would be hurt financially at the time gold was up to about now it is less than half that this prediction stuck in my mind because a lot of people where i worked were buying gold note that the above type of prediction does not require a god to be made an expert in a field can also predict things based on experience beware of predictions like the volcano will erupt tomorrow don t follow the preacher because of such statements that come true note also that if i m describing a hypothetical death of a friend as a result of his passion for fast motorcycles i might say his mother predicted he would die of course his father may have said he ll make good money because of his hobby and depending upon the final outcome of the situation i end up mentioning the one that s relevant a reader down the road will get the impression that the mother or father had predicted accurately the event when it was just a casual statement finally on prophesies note that there are many prophesies that can be fulfilled my people often to fool believers if i say beware the terminal will unexpectedly be shut off and then after secs i turn it off or have someone come out from another room and do it there was no prediction a similar situation arises with the establishment of the jewish state while pressing for it prominent jews argued that it was predicted that they d have a state again and that the time has come i ve read this somewhere but can t think of the source if you can please let me know in this case the establishment of the state does not really fulfill the prophesy since the prophesy was used in order to push for the establishment of the state deciding what was truely a fulfillment of prophesy is very tricky leo my mother wanted to save herself until marriage every leonidas hepis day i thank god that she didn t because without pre marital sex i would never have been born premarital lhep ltd uhura sex what a beautiful choice greg weeks cc rochester edu
soc.religion.christian	rfd soc religion islam ahmadiyya moderated dear netters a new religious newsgroup soc religion islam ahmadiyya was pro posed on oct the discussion about this new proposed newsgroup went on in various related groups the proposal was supposed to enter a vote during the last week of november due to a false call for votes by some opponent the voting had to be canceled i quote here a statement from the moderator of new announce newgroups the current call for votes cfv for an ahmadiyya newsgroup is being canceled a new call for votes will be issued within a few weeks possibly with a new impartial vote taker discus sion on the proposal is still open until the new vote is called by lawrence nov a lot of confusion arose among the netter as to whom to vote therefore it was decided to give a cool down period so that all confusions are over it has been over months of that instant and now we are again attempting to create this newsgroup a fresh rfd is hereby being issued please take part in the discussion under the same title heading and in news groups or at least cross post it to news groups request for discussion name of proposed newsgroup soc religion islam ahmadiyya charter a religious newsgroup which would mainly discuss the be liefs teachings philosophy and ideologies of all major reli gions of the world as they exist to foster better religious knowledge and understanding among followers of all religions as they share common basis this newsgroup will be devoted to build a peaceful mutual understanding of the ahmadiyya branch of islam its peacefull beliefs ideology and philosophy and how it is different from other branches of islam in fostering world peace and developing better understanding among religious people it may also be used to post important religious events within the world wide ahmadiyya islamic community in general purpose of the group the following are some of the main purposes this group will achieve i to discuss the common beliefs of all major religions as they relate to ahmadiyya muslim community ii to discuss the doctrines origin and teachings of this puissant spiritual force on earth iii to examine islamic teachings and beliefs in general in light of the quran and established islamic traditions of centuries from ahmadiyya perspective iv to discuss the similarities between ahmadi muslims and people of other religions of the world and discuss how religious tolerance and respect to other s faiths can be brought about to eliminate inter religion rivalries and hatred among people of religions v to discuss the origin and teachings of all religions in general and islamic and ahmadiyya muslims in particular to foster better understanding among ahmadi muslims and other religious people vi to discuss current world problems and solution to these problems as offered by religion vii to exchange important news and views about the ahmadiyya muslim community and other religions viii to add diversity in the religious newsgroups present on usenet ix to discuss why religious persecution is on the rise in the world and find solutions to remedy the ever deter iorating situation in the world in general and in the islamic world in particular x to discuss the contributions of founders of all reli gions and their people for humanity society and world peace in general and by the international ahmadiyya mus lim community in particular type the group will be moderated for orderly and free religious dialo gue the moderation will not prevent disagreement or dissent to beliefs but will mainly be used to prevent derogatory squalid use of dialect and irrelevant issues the moderators have been decided through personal e mail and through a general consensus among the proponants by discussion in news groups the following moderators have been proposed and agreed upon moderator nabeel a rana rana rintintin colorado edu co moderator dr tahir ijaz ijaz ccu umanitoba ca a brief description about ahmadiyya islam the ahmadiyya movement in islam an international organi sation was founder in in qadian india the founder of this sect hazrat mirza ghulam ahmad proclaimed to be the promised reformer of this age as foretold in almost all the major religions of the world today islam christianity judiasm hin duism he claimed to be the long awaited second comming of jesus christ metaphorically the muslim mahdi and the promised messiah he claimed that the prophecies contained in almost all the great religions of the world about the advent of a messenger from god have been fulfilled the claims hazrat ahmad raised storms of hostility and extreme oposition from many priestlike people of muslims chris tians jews and hindus of that age such opposition is often wit nessed in the history of divine reformers even today this sect is being persecuted specially in some of the muslim regimes dispite the opposition and persecution this sect has won many adherents in countries it has over million followers who come from a diverse ethnic and cultural background the sect is devoted to world peace and in bringing about a better understanding of religion and the founders of all reli gions its mission is to unite mankind into one universal broth erhood and develop a better understanding of faith ahmadi muslims have always been opposed to all kind of violence and spe cially religious intollerance and fundamentalism among its many philanthropic activities the sect has es tablished a network of hundreds of schools hospitals and clin ics in many third world countries these institutions are staffed by volunteer professional and are fully financed by the sect s internal resources the ahmadiyya mission is to bring about a universal moral reform establish peace and justice and to unite mankind under one universal religion newsgroup creation when the call for votes is called the discussion will officially end voting will be held for about three weeks if the group gets rd majority and more yes create votes than no don t create votes the group shall be created any questions or comments may be included in the discussion or directly sent to rana rintintin colorado edu
soc.religion.christian	re the arrogance of christians in a previous article dleonar andy bgsu edu pixie says do the words question authority mean anything to you i defy any theist to reply well despite what my mother told me about accepting dares here goes you have to be very careful about what you mean by question authority taken literally it is nonsense that which is authoratative is authoratative and to say i question to word of this authority is ridiculous if it is open to question it isn t an authority on the other hand it is perfectly reasonable to question whether something is an authority the catch phrase here should be authenticate authority once you have authenticated your authority you must believe what it says or you are not treating it as an authority the difficulty is that authenticating an authority is not easy you can perhaps discredit a claim to authority by showing logical inconsistency in what it teaches or by showing that it does not obey its own rules of discourse but the fact that i cannot discredit something does not in inself accredit it nor does the fact that i can convince myself and other that i have discredited something necessarilly mean that it is false i cannot accredit an authority by independantly verifying its teachings because if i can independantly verify its teachings i don t need an authority i need an authority only when there is information i need which i cannot get for myself thus if i am to authenticate an authority i must do it by some means other than by examining its teachings in practical matters we accept all kinds of authorities because we don t have time to rediscover fundamental knowledge for ourselves every scientist woring today assumes on the authority of the scintific community all sorts of knowledge which is necessary to his work but which he has not time to verify for himself in spiritual matters we accept authority because we have no direct source ofinformation we select our authorities based on various criteria i am a catholic in part because the historical claims of the rc church seem the strongest without authorities there would be no subject matter for belief unless we simply made something up for ourselves as many do the atheist position seems to be that there are no authorities this is a reasonable assertion in itself but it leads to a practical difficulty if you reject all authority out of hand you reject all possibility of every receiving information thus the atheist position can never possibly change it is non falsifiable and therefore unscintific to demand scintific or rational proof of god s existence is to deny god s existence since neither science nor reason can in their very nature prove anything mark baker the task is not to cut down jungles but aa freenet carleton ca to irrigate deserts c s lewis
soc.religion.christian	re pantheism environmentalism in article apr athos rutgers edu heath athena cs uga edu terrance heath writes i realize i m entering this discussion rather late but i do have one question wasn t it a reagan appointee james watt a pentacostal christian i think who was the secretary of the interior who saw no problem with deforestation since we were living in the last days and ours would be the last generation to see the redwoods anyway i heard the same thing but without confirmation that he actually said it it was just as alarming to us as to you the bible says that nobody knows when the second coming will take place michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
soc.religion.christian	re does god love you davem bnr ca dave mielke writes however god s love is qualified the bible says the way of the wicked is an abomination unto the lord but he loveth him that followeth after righteousness proverbs for the lord knoweth the way of the righteous but the way of the ungodly shall perish psalm i am extremely uncomfortable with this way of phrasing it god s love is unconditional unqualified unfathomable we are capable of rejecting god s love but he never fails to love us these verses do not show that god s love is qualified but rather that he is opposed to evil i am uncomfortable with the tract in general because there seems to be an innappropriate emphasis on hell god deserves our love and worship because of who he is i do not like the idea of frightening people into accepting christ i see evangelism as combining a way of living that shows god s love with putting into words and explaining that love preaching the gospel without living the gospel is no better than being a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal here s a question how many of you are christians because you are afraid of going to hell how many are responding to god s love jayne kulikauskas jayne mmalt guild org
soc.religion.christian	quality of catholic liturgy jemurray magnus acs ohio state edu john e murray writes i would like the opinion of netters on a subject that has been bothering my wife and me lately liturgy in particular catholic liturgy in the last fe years it seems that there are more and more ad hoc events during mass it s driving me crazy the most grace filled aspect of a liturgical tradition is that what happens is something we all do together because we all know how do it led by the priest of course which makes it a kind of dialogue we present to god but the best masses i ve been to were participatory prayers on the one hand there are advantages to having the liturgy stay the same john has described some of these on the other hand some people seem to start tuning out the same old words and pay attention better when things get changed around i think innovative priests and liturgy committees are trying to get our attention and make things more meaningful for us it drives me crazy too different people have differing preferences and needs in liturgy my local parish is innovative i prefer to go to mass at the next parish over sometimes we don t have the option of attending a mass in the style which best suits us john put a smiley on it but to just offer it up probably is the solution a related issue that it sounds like john does not have to deal with is that spouses may have different liturgical tastes my husband does like innovative litury it is a challenge to meet both of our spiritual needs without just going our separate ways when you include the factor of also trying to satisfy our children s needs things get pretty complicated one thing to remember is that even the most uncongenial mass is still mass jayne kulikauskas jayne mmalt guild org
soc.religion.christian	accepting jeesus in your heart gsu uxa ecn bgu edu eric molas writes firstly i am an atheist i am not posting here as an immature flame start but rather to express an opinion to my intended audience deleted we are just animals we need sleep food and we reproduce and we die i am glad that i am not an atheist it seems tragic that some people choose a meaningless existence how terrible to go on living only because one fears death more than life i feel so sorry for eric and yet any attempts to share my joy in life with him would be considered as further evidence of the infectious nature of christianity as a christian i am free to be a human person i think love choose and create i will live forever with god christ is not a kind of drug drugs are a replacement for christ those who have an empty spot in the god shaped hole in their hearts must do something to ease the pain this is why the most effective substance abuse recovery programs involve meeting peoples spiritual needs thank you eric for your post it has helped me to appreciate how much god has blessed me i hope that you will someday have a more joy filled and abundant life jayne kulikauskas jayne mmalt guild org
soc.religion.christian	re every lent he suffers to save us the story i related is one of the seven apparitions approved by our church as worthy of belief it happened in la salle france the moral lesson of the story is the lamb of god has been sacrificed and his blood has been used to cleanse us of our sins every moment as god perceives worthy of being done in heaven mary weeps for the lamb and for the rest of her offsprings this will continue while we disobey god or sin against him mary as a messenger has been given the task to make us be aware of the evil serpent communism wars famine unfaithful disobedience to god etc running after the rest of her offsprings the children who went astray by disobedience led by the dragon is brought back by her peace and loving messages reparations for sins to obey god s commandments and be more worthy to be in the presence of the lamb as she was conceived without sin to be worthy of bearing the son of god in her womb mary has been preparing us the church the body of christ for his second coming making sure we are protected from the dragon also she has been preparing the new eden by reversing the deed of the ancient eve the new eden will be the sanctuary of the righteous as judged by christ in his next coming i relate the story again i believe this and mary in one of her apparitions in th or th century she appeared to these two children who tends goats and cows i forgot the exact place she was weeping and telling the children that she is afraid she s going to lose her son s arm she is mourning too for these townfolks because it was their fault that there would be drought in their harvest not much good food again this year as it was last year mary tells the children most of the townfolks in this place worked whole week even on sundays when they should be in church honoring god these townfolks swears and uses her son s name in bad words that is why her son s arm is so heavy in pain then she asked them if they pray the children said hardly she asked them to pray every morning and night when the children went back from work they had to tell somebody about this when the news was spred and after thorough investigation of the incident the townfolks were converted and faith and obedience to god were restored in their community once again the lamb succeeds marida spreading god s words through actions mother teresa
soc.religion.christian	re atheist s views on christianity was re accepting jeesus in your heart norris athena mit edu writes this is certainly a valid objection to religion as explanation of nature fortunately for the convenience of us believers there is a class of questions that can never be reduced away by natural science for example why does the universe exist at all must there be a why to this i ask because of what you also assume about god namely that he just exists with no why to his existence so the question is reversed why can t we assume the universe just exists as you assume god to just exist why must there be a why to the universe after all the time space world didn t have to exist why does anything exist and is it possible for persons e g man to come into being out of a purely impersonal cosmos these questions which look at the real mysteries of life the creation of the world and of persons provide a permanent indicator that the meaning of life in the material world can only be found outside that world in its source it may be that one day man not only can create life but can also create man now i don t see this happening in my lifetime nor do i assert it is probable but the possibility is there given scientists are working hard at decoding out genetic code to perhaps help cure disease of a genetic variation again though must there be why or a divine prupose to man s existence when you say that man is only an animal i have to think that you are presenting an unprovable statement a dogma if you will and one the requires a kind of faith too by taking such a hard line in your atheism you may have stumbled into a religion of your own as far as we can tell man falls into the mammal catagory now if there were something more to the man say a soul then we have yet to find evidence of such but as it is now man is a mammal babies are born live mother gives milk we re warm blooded etc as other mammals are and is similar in genetic construction to some of them in particular primates for more on this check out talk origins but before you write off all christianity as phony and shallow i hope you ll do a little research into its history and varieties perhaps by reading paul johnson s a history of christianity from your remarks it seems that you have been exposed to certain types of christian religion and not others even an atheist should have enough faith in man to know that a movement of years has to have some depth and be animated by some enduring values well then buddhism confucianism taoism hinduism judaism zoerasterism shintoism and islam should fit this bit of logic quite nicely all have depth all have enduring values thus all must be true stephen atheist libertarian pro individuality pro responsibility jr and all that jazz
soc.religion.christian	weirdness of early christians halsall murray fordham edu paul halsall writes but recently i read peter brown s body and society it is very well researched and well written but is raises some very upsetting questions the early christians were weird even more so than today s carzy fundies they had odd views on sex odder views on the body totally ludicrous views about demons and distinctly uncharitable views about other human beings if possible last i heard it was out of print but they were considering reprinting read barbara hambly s search the seven hills it is historical fiction set in rome at the time of the early church she captures the weirdness of the early christians and yet gives glimpses of the holiness too some of their odd views make a lot more sense in the context of the society they lived in i found it a remarkably positive view of christianity considering that the author is not a christian herself another plus is that each chapter begins with an original source quote so that it makes a good starting point for serious research jayne kulikauskas jayne mmalt guild org
soc.religion.christian	re the arrogance of christians in article apr athos rutgers edu dleonar andy bgsu edu pixie wrote in article apr athos rutgers edu vbv r d eeap cwru edu virgilio dean b velasco jr wrote we affirm the absolutes of scripture not because we are arrogant moralists but because we believe in god who is truth who has revealed his truth in his word and therefore we hold as precious the strategic importance of those absolutes pardon me a humble atheist but exactly what is the difference between holding a revealed truth with blind faith as its basis i e regardless of any evidence that you may find to the contrary as an absolute truth fully expecting people to believe you and arrogance if you would bother to check in any good dictioanry or thesaurus i think you will find that arrogance has to do with an offensive exhibition of presumed or real superiority a paraphrase from my own webster s arrognace is about pride and haughtiness a person can believe in absolute truth even blindly whatever that means without being obnoxious about it just as a person can be a humble authority questioning defying any theist to reply athiest and be quite arrogant arrogance is not about what you believe it is about how you relate to what you believe and how you present it to others if your overwhelming experience of christians has been that they are arrogant i apologozing both for myself and on the behalf of those who have offfended you but my own experience at least in forums like usenet where you see a good mix of people is that arrogant christians and athiests seems to occur in about equal numbers phil hey we re talking about the phone company here the phone company doesn t have opinions on this kind of stuff this is all me
soc.religion.christian	greek wordprocessor database hi there does anyone know about any greek database word processor that can do things like count occurrences of a word letter et al i m posting this up for a friend who studies greek thanks nico p s can you email as i seldom look into usenet nowadays nicodemus chan raffles hall nus kent ridge cres department of information systems singapore tel computer science hometown address national university of singapore nanyang estate jinjang north kent ridge crescent kuala lumpur malaysia singapore e mail isc nusunix nus sg channico iscs nus sg call unto me and i will answer you and show thee great and unsearchable things you do not know jeremiah
soc.religion.christian	re did he really rise mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington writes nobody ever displayed the dead body of jesus even though both the jewish and the roman authorities would have gained a lot by doing so it would have discredited the christians it is told in the gospels that the pharisees sp and scribes bribed the roman soldiers to say that the diciples stole his body in the night good enough excuse for the jewish and roman objectives of that day clator lbutler hubcap clemson edu
soc.religion.christian	johnny hart s b c comic strip mailing address subject pretty much says it all i m looking for johnny hart s creator of the b c comic stip mailing address for those of you who haven t seen them take a look at his strips for good friday and easter sunday remarkable witness if anyone can help me get in touch with him i d really appreciate it i ve contacted the paper that carries his strip and they ll get back to me with it thanks for your help dave arndt st peter s evangelical lutheran church st peter mn darndt nic gac edu
soc.religion.christian	re the arrogance of christians in article apr athos rutgers edu mhsu lonestar utsa edu melinda hsu writes belief that their faith is total truth according to them their beliefs come from the bible and the bible is the word of god and god is truth thus they know the truth this stance makes it difficult to discuss other faiths with them and my own hesitations about christianity because they see no other way their way is the truth but i see their faith arising from a willful choice to believe a particular way that choice is part faith and part reason but it seems to me a choice my discussions with some christians remind me of schoolyard discussions when i was in grade school a kid would say all policemen are jerks i d ask how do you know because my daddy told me so how do you know you re daddy is right he says he s always right well the argument usually stops right there in the end aren t we all just kids groping for the truth if so do we have the authority to declare all other beliefs besides our own as false i find this argument very strange though not unfamiliar an analogy someone used a while back can perhaps illustrate it say for example there are people living on a volcanic island and a group of geologists determine that a volcano is imminent they warn the people on the island that they are in danger and should leave a group of people on the island is given the task of warning others of the danger they believe the danger is real but others may not does that mean that the first group are necessarily arrogant in warning others of the danger does it mean that they are saying that their beliefs are correct and all others are false some might indeed react to opposition with arrogance and behave in an arrogant manner but that is a personal idiocyncracy it does not necessarily mean that they are all arrogant steve hayes department of missiology editorial department univ of south africa p o box pretoria south africa internet hayesstw risc unisa ac za steve hayes p f n z fidonet org stephen hayes f n z fidonet org
soc.religion.christian	conversions on apr in environmentalism and paganism user michael covington aisun writes i would like to see christians devote a bit less effort to bashing paganism and more to figuring out how to present the gospel to pagans christ is the answer the pagans have a lot of the right questions unlike materialists who deny the need for any spirituality and what of those of us who already have answers to their questions without turning to christianity or in my case any religion whay right do you have to presume to lecture me about what i should believe david hunt
soc.religion.christian	does god love you i simply wish to thank dave mielke dave bnr ca for sharing the tract concerning god s love it was most welcome to me and a great source of comfort carol bocher
soc.religion.christian	re quality of catholic liturgy in article apr athos rutgers edu jemurray magnus acs ohio state edu john e murray writes example last sunday palm sunday we went to the local church usually on palm sunday the congregation participates in reading the passion taking the role of the mob the theology behind this seems profound when we say crucify him we mean it we did it and if he came back today we d do it again it always gives me chills but last week we were invited to sit during the gospel passion and listen besides the orwellian invitation on palm sunday at our parish we were invited to take the role of jesus in the passion i declined to participate last year at the liturgy meeting i pointed out how we crucify christ by our sins so therefore it is appropriate that we retain the role of the crowd but to no avail musicians readers and so on new things are introduced in the course of the liturgy and since no one knows what s happening the new things have to be explained and pretty soon instead of doing a lot of the mass we re just sitting there listening or spacing out in my case to how the mass is about to be done in my mind i lay the blame on liturgy committees made up of lay experts but that may not be just i do think that a liturgy committee has a bias toward doing something rather than nothing that s just a fact of bureaucratic life even though a simpler liturgy may in fact make it easier for people to be aware of the lord s presence as a member of a liturgy committee i can tell you that the problem is certain people dominating who want to try out all kinds of innovations the priests don t seem even to want to make any decisions of their own in many cases i guess it s easier to try something new than it is to refuse to allow it at our parish on holy thursday instead of the priests washing feet who wants to get around people s feet according to one of our priests the congregation was invited to come up and help wash one another s hands the symbolism of this action distressed me and again i refused to participate i thought that if we were to have to come up with rubrics for this liturgical action i e body of christ amen for receiving communion that they could be i am not responsible for the blood of this man also for part of the eucharistic prayer blessed are you god of all creation was substituted some text read by a lay couple the priest certainly should not have given this part of the mass over to others and i was so disturbed that i declined to receive communion that night we aren t required to anyway i instead offered up prayers for our priests and parish so we ve been wondering are we the oddballs or is the quality of the mass going down i don t mean that facetiously we go to mass every thursday or friday and are reminded of the power of a very simple liturgy to make us aware of god s presence but as far as the obligatory sunday masses maybe i should just offer it up has anyone else noticed declining congregational participation in catholic masses lately the quality of the mass has not changed again if it were to be celebrated according to the rubrics set down by the church it would still be liturgically beautiful the problem comes about from people trying to be creative who are not i think the answer to your question on participation could be that given by father peter stravinskas in answer to the question posed by the title of thomas day s why catholics can t sing they don t want to because of all this nonsense by the way for any non catholics reading this the problem does not reflect bad liturgy by the catholic church but by those who are disobedient to the church in changing it on their own authority steve creps indiana university creps lateran ucs indiana edu
soc.religion.christian	certainty and arrogance dean velasco quoted a letter from james m stowell president of moody bible institute the other day i was at the dry cleaner and the radio was playing it caught my attention because a talk show guest was criticizing evangelical christians saying we believe in absolutes and think we are the only ones who know what the absolutes are we affirm the absolutes of scripture not because we are arrogant moralists but because we believe in god who is truth who has revealed his truth in his word and therefore we hold as precious the strategic importance of those absolutes there has been a lot of discussion but so far nobody seems to have hit on exactly what the criticism of arrogance is aimed at the arrogance being attacked is that we think we are the only ones who know what the absolutes are in short many evangelicals claim that they are infallible on the matter of religious texts in particular the problem is one of epistemology as a shorthand you can think of epistemology as how do you know that question it turns out is a very troubling one the problem with absolute certainty is that at the bottom at least some of the thinking goes on inside your own head unless you can be certain that everything which happens in your head is infallible the reasoning you did to discover a source of truth is in question and that means you do not have absolute justification for your source of authority which means you do not have absolute certainty let s take the specific example of biblical inerrancy and a fictional inerrantist named zeke the following arguments applies to the idea of papal infallibility too zeke has we presume spent some time studying the bible and history and several other topics he has concluded based on all these studies and possibly some religious experiences that the bible is a source of absolute truth he may be correct but even if he is he cannot be certain that he is correct his conclusion depends on how well he studied history he may have made mistakes and the references he used may have contained mistakes his conclusion depends on how well he studied the bible he may have made mistakes his conclusion depends on his own reasoning and he may have made mistakes noticing a common thread yet everything about his study of the world that he did everything that happened in his own head is limited by his own thinking no matter what he does to try and cover his mistakes he can never be certain of his own infallibility as long as any part of the belief is based on his own reasoning that belief cannot be considered absolutely certain zeke believes that he has found a source of absolute truth but that belief is only as good as the quality of the search he made for it unless he can say that his own reasoning is flawless his conclusions are in doubt any belief that you hold about absolute sources of truth depends in part on your own thinking there is no way out of the loop only an infallible thinker can have absolute certainty in all his beliefs this is easy to demonstrate let s go back to our shorthand method of doing epistemology how do you know imagine a hypothetical discussion a the bible is a source of absolute truth b how do you know a i studied history and the bible and religious writings and church teachings and came to this conclusion b how do you know you studied history correctly a well i double checked everything b how do you know you double checked correctly a well i compared my answers with some smart people and we agreed b just because some smart guy believes something that doesn t mean it is true how do you know they studied it correctly a and as you see b will eventually get a to the point where he has to say i can t prove that there are no mistakes and as long as you may have made a mistake then you cannot be absolutely certain there is no way out of the loop this is where the arrogance of christians arises many people believe that their own personal research can give them absolute certainty about the doctrines of christianity they are implicitly claiming that they are infallible and that there is no possibility of mistake claiming that you cannot have made a mistake and that your thinking has led you to a flawless conclusion is pretty arrogant people who want to see this argument explained in great detail should try to find the infallibility of the church by george salmon he is attacking the idea that the pope can be knowably infallible and he does so very well but the general argument applies equally well to the idea that the bible is knowably inerrant darren f provine kilroy gboro rowan edu at the core of all well founded belief lies belief that is unfounded ludwig wittgenstein
soc.religion.christian	re the arrogance of christians vbv r d eeap cwru edu virgilio dean b velasco jr writes in article apr athos rutgers edu caralv caralv auto trol com carol alvin writes are all truths also absolutes is all of scripture truths and therefore absolutes if the answer to either of these questions is no then perhaps you can explain to me how you determine which parts of scripture are truths and which truths are absolutes the answer to both questions is yes perhaps we have different definitions of absolute then to me an absolute is something that is constant across time culture situations etc true in every instance possible do you agree with this definition i think you do similarly all truth is absolute indeed a non absolute truth is a contradiction in terms when is something absolute when it is always true obviously if a truth is not always true then we have a contradiction in terms a simple example in the new testament sorry i don t have a bible at work and can t provide a reference women are instructed to be silent and cover their heads in church now this is scripture by your definition this is truth and therefore absolute do women in your church speak do they cover their heads if all scripture is absolute truth it seems to me that women speaking in and coming to church with bare heads should be intolerable to evangelicals yet clearly women do speak in evangelical churches and come with bare heads at least this was the case in the evangelical churches i grew up in evangelicals are clearly not taking this particular part of scripture to be absolute truth and there are plenty of other examples can you reconcile this many people claim that there are no absolutes in the world such a statement is terribly self contradictory let me put it to you this way if there are no absolutes shouldn t we conclude that the statement there are no absolutes is not absolutely true obviously we have a contradiction here i don t claim that there are no absolutes i think there are very few though and determining absolutes is difficult this is just one of the reasons why christians defy the world by claiming that there are indeed absolutes in the universe there is hardly consensus even in evangelical christianity not to mention the rest of christianity regarding biblical interpretation so people sometimes disagree about what is true this does not negate the fact however that there are still absolutes in the universe but you are claiming that all of scripture is absolute how can you determine absolutes derived from scripture when you can t agree how to interpret the scripture it s very difficult to see how you can claim something which is based on your own interpretation is absolute do you deny that your own background education prejudices etc come into play when you read the bible and determine how to interpret a passsage do you deny that you in fact interpret carol alvin caralv auto trol com
soc.religion.christian	re prayer in jesus name according to what i have read on biblical idioms speaking in x s name is a standard aramaic hebrew legal idiom for what we today would call power of attorney a person from jesus culture authorized to conduct business in john s name had full authority over john s financial affairs but was held under a solemn fiduciary obligation to work only for john s benefit and consonant with john s wishes it was not required for the steward to preface each business transaction with in john s name it was sufficient to have valid power of attorney and be operating in good faith note the overlap here between legal and religious definitions of faith with this cultural background praying in jesus name does not mandate a particular verbal formula rather it requires that the petitioner be operating faithfully and consciously within an analogous fiduciary relationship with jesus and for the purposes of his kingdom the message of praying in jesus name is thus closely aligned with the parable of the talents and other passages about god s delegation of kingdom business to his stewards both resources and responsibilities this idea of praying in jesus name is not only present but prominent in the lord s prayer although the verbal forumula is absent the act of praying the words in jesus name may be beneficial if they cause us to clarify the relationship of our requests to the advancement of god s kingdom for that reason i m not quite ready to say that the praying the formula is without meaning prayers to god for other purposes desperation anger thanksgiving etc don t seem to be in this category at all whether uttered by christian or non christian whether b c or a d that s b c e or c e for you p c i don t see anything in christ s words to contradict the idea that god deals with all prayers according to his omniscience and grace van kelly vek research att com the above opinions are my own and not those of at t
soc.religion.christian	nature of god re environmentalism and paganism in article apr athos rutgers edu mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington writes i would like to see christians devote a bit less effort to bashing paganism and more to figuring out how to present the gospel to pagans christ is the answer the pagans have a lot of the right questions unlike materialists who deny the need for any spirituality one of the things i find intersting about pagan beliefs is their belief in a feminine deity as well as a masculine deity being brought up in a christian household i often wondered if there was god the father where was the mother everyone i know who has a father usually as a mother it just seemed rather unbalanced to me fortunately my own personal theology which will probably not fall into line with a lot others recognized god as a being both without gender and posessing qualities of both genders as being both a masculine and feminine force it provides a sense of balance i find sorely lacking in most theologies a lack which i think is responsible for a lot of the unbalanced ways in which we see the world and treat each other terrance heath heath athena cs uga edu your comfort is my silence act up fight back talk back
soc.religion.christian	re accepting jeesus in your heart disclaimer throughout this post there are statements and questions which could easily be interpreted as being sarcastic they are not i have written this reply in the most even handed manner that i can with no emotions boiling to the surface as it was written please accept this as a serious attempt to foster dialog and rest assurred that i make every attempt to make fun of no one except myself gsu uxa ecn bgu edu eric molas writes firstly i am an atheist i am not posting here as an immature flame start but rather to express an opinion to my intended audience the human being is an animal who has due to his her advanced mental facilities developed religious as a satisfiable solution to explain the unexplainable hmmm there are other animals on this planet with advanced mental facilities which have not developed religion as a satisfactory explaination for the unexplained why is this so further it appears that only humans have a need to explain the unexplained why is this so the other animals on this planet including those with advanced mental facilities seem perfectly content in their ignorance i d like to point out that your presuppositions scream out at me from your unsupported statement they are humans are animal only religion exists as a crutch so that the unexplained need not be researched religion was made up by humans to address a perceived need the biological aspect of humans is deified that is all aspects of human life can be categorized in a hierarchical structure with biology at the apex needless to say i disagree with your strong opinion and the underlying presuppositions christianity is an infectious cult the reasons it flourishes are because it gives people without hope or driven purpose in life a safety blanked to hide behind oh wow all i have to do is follow this christian moral standard and i get eternal happiness for all of you found jeezus how many of you were on the brink i disagree that christianity is an infectious cult it has certainly shown itself to be persistent as a belief system in spite of various persecutions throughout the past two millenia that it continues to persevere does not demonstrate that it is infectious in a derrogatory sense it may be that it provides a workable system for its adherents and i would argue that this is the case i disagree that christianity is a safety blanket which supplants hope and purpose rather it points an individual to the one source of hope and purpose there is nothing hidden about a christian s source for hope and purpose of what usefulness to you is the distinction between internally motivated hope and purpose and externally given hope and purpose is the apparent loss of control over one s own life the problem or is it something else finally one does not appropriate eternal happiness by following christian moral standards indeed the sole reason for the existance of christianity is because standards are inadequate to save people from their imperfections moral standards are merely guides to the christian the real power to moral living is given to the christian in the person of god s spirit heaven is one of two final states that christian doctrine postulates however christians are generally not motivated to live according to christian moral standards by this promised future reward rather they are motivated by the perceived benefits to them in the here and now but i digress the other reason christianity flourishes is its infectious nature a best friend of mine breifly entered a christian group and within months they set ministry guidelines for him which basicaly said this priority spread the word many christian organizations are concerned with evangelism as a priority and rightly so for it was jesus himself who gave this as a priority for his followers however it is not the penultimate priority as evangelism is normally understood i e preach the word convert at nearly any cost repeat with new convert ad infinitum rather such evangelism is generally best done through respecting the opinions of others while demonstrating the very real benefits of a christian lifestyle this demonstration should be so powerful that it compels the non christian to seek out the christian to ask why needless to say such a demonstration is not easily accom plished it takes a radical committment to the person of jesus it does not happen quickly so perseverance on the part of the christian is required and it cannot occur where no personal bonds of friendship exist it is ineffective with strangers who cannot evaluate the demonstration over time and it is easy to alienate or harm others if the sole purpose of being a friend is to gain a conversion as a long time christian nearly years i view with some skep ticism all evangelism programs which incorporate a hurry up attitude pressured conversions may ultimately be worse than no conversion at all because the pressured convert realizes s he was coerced and disavows christianity when they would have been open to it in the future had they not been taken advantage of now the bible states that it is the very spirit of god which brings conviction of wrong doing to people i am content to do my part witness and let the spirit do the rest we are just animals we need sleep food and we reproduce and we die we are far more than animals we sleep eat reproduce and die just as other animals do true but we are also capable of more than this if your personal vision of humanity or of yourself is so limited i can only hope and pray that you will someday find a more expansive view for reflection what animals have the wide variety of performing arts that humans do how is it that humans can learn the language of other humans or animals but that other animals cannot do so how is it that humans can organize themselves in various social structures whereas other animals have only one structure religion especially christianity is nothing more than a drug blatant assertion christianity is not physically addictive christianity is not psychologically addictive christianity is not a thing which one snorts ingests shoots up it is a relationship with a living being you might as validly characterize any close knit relationship with this appelation some people use drugs as an escape from reality christians inject themselves with jeezus and live with that high there are jesus freaks who let the emotional aspects of worship and christian living gain and retain the upper hand even so this does not by itself invalidate the foundation from which these things flow it pities me how many millions of lives have been lost in religious wars of which christianity has had no small part guilty by association that christianity which forces itself upon another is not christianity at all when christians see a non believer they say that person is blind to the truth but they cannot realize that it is they who live with this mask of fakeness each day jesus was just prophet who happened to have a large influence because at that time the romans were circa ad dispersing the jewish population and communities needed some sort of cohesive element to keep them strong in that time of dire need you appear to have an amazing certainty about what really happened years ago how did you come by it i cannot accept your conclusion that jesus influence was a sole result of the roman sack of jerusalem in ad he was years gone by this time it strains the bounds of credulity to assert that nothing about jesus life was noteworthy until the sack i must go these are but a few of my thoughts on christianity christianity is having a relationship with jesus christ himself what do you know of him we read the world wrong phil buckland and say that it deceives us psb eece ksu edu tagore from stray birds psb matt ksu ksu edu
soc.religion.christian	re did he really rise in article apr athos rutgers edu reedr cgsvax claremont edu writes the real problem was that christians were pacifist and preached there was only one god when the state operates by a system of divinitation of the emperor monotheism becomes a capital offense the jews were able to get exemption from this and were also not evangelistic i disagree with your claim that jews were not evangelistic except in the narrow sense of the word jewish proselytism was widespread there are numerous accounts of jewish proselytism both in the new testament and in roman and greek documents of the day jim eggertj atc ll mit edu jim eggert
soc.religion.christian	re questions from a newbie the concept of god as a teacher is indeed interesting does he grade on a curve does he cheat that is interesting not to mention thought provoking my own concept is that he is a father and we are his children in that he loves us with a love that we can never understand until we are with him the bible says that he looks on the heart as the final measure from that perspective in a grading context the heart is the final test specifically most christians would agree that there is only one heaven and one hell from that perspective it is heaven or hell you either go to one or the other the grading on a pass fail basis is done by god the father with intervention by jesus the son not by others for only god sees the heart the bible says of the heart who can know it i would say there has always been and always be an unchanging method that is what makes a relationship with christ so secure in an uncertain and ever changing landscape he is always the same yesterday today and tomorrow concerning whether or not our childhoods are considerd as part of the test my own conviction is no were that the case i certainly wouldn t be going to heaven the bible speaks very plainly about the love and care jesus had for and about children the reality is that we are all children some of us just have bigger bodies and grey hair but the father our father is always there like most fathers he wants only the best for his own there maybe decipline but there is more love it s sometimes looks like christianity is a test to see who makes it and who doesn t those who do pass heaven and those who don t go to the other place but it is really much more than that there are few experts most of us are just travelers looking for the light and the way home praying that we can bring others with us
soc.religion.christian	re eternity of hell was re hell vic mmalt guild org vic kulikauskas writes our moderator writes i m inclined to read descriptions such as the lake of fire as indicating annihilation however that s a minority view it s my personal view but the only denominations i know of that hold it officially are the jw s and sda s i can t find the reference right now but didn t c s lewis speculate somewhere that hell might be the state of once having been a human soul why is it that we have this notion that god takes some sort of pleasure from punishing people the purpose of hell is to destroy the devil and his angels to the earlier poster who tried to support the eternal hell theory with the fact that the fallen angels were not destroyed remember the bible teaches that god has reserved them until the day of judgement their judgement is soon to come let me suggest this maybe those who believe in the eternal hell theory should provide all the biblical evidence they can find for it stay away from human theories and only take into account references in the bible darius
soc.religion.christian	re ancient books in article apr athos rutgers edu atterlep vela acs oakland edu cardinal ximenez writes i don t think it s possible to convince atheists of the validity of christianity through argument we have to help foster faith and an understanding of god i could be wrong are there any former atheists here who were led to christianity by argument this is an excellent question and i ll be anxious to see if there are any such cases i doubt it in the medieval period esp th cent when aquinas flourished argument was a useful tool because everyone knew the rules today when you can t count on people knowing even the basics of logic or seeing through rhetoric a good argument is often indistinguishable from a poor one sorry just one of my perennial gripes ken miner kuhub cc ukans edu nobody can explain everything to everybody opinions are my own g k chesterton
soc.religion.christian	sspx schism hi all hope you all had a blessed easter i have a document which i believe refutes the notion that the sspx society of saint pius x is in schism or that there has been any legitimate excommunication if anyone is interested in reading the truth about this matter please email me and i ll send them the document via email its pages long so i wont be posting it on the news group its titled neither schismatic nor excommunicated this article was originally an english translation by the society of saint pius x in ireland from the french journal courrier de rome the french article in its turn was a translation from the italian of the roman newsletter si si no no this booklet contains the transcription with some minor editing of the irish article and was transcribed and produced by john clay townsville queensland australia there is no copyright attached simon shields contents neither schismatic nor excommunicated catholics on the rack the choice of the sensus fidei ambiguity the church is not bicephalous two headed the person and the function of the pope unity of faith and unity of communion the criteria of choice ecumenism an attack on the unity of the church the extraordinary situation within the church extraordinary duties of lay people duties and powers of bishops from the fact of their greater duties from the fact of their greater power the power and the duty of the papacy the election of bishops state and right of necessity there is in the church a real state of necessity for souls for seminarians all the ordinary means have been exhausted the act itself is not intrinsically evil and there resul in the limits of effective requirements the authority of the pope is not put into question the excommunication conclusion bibliography god bless ye all an irish fairwell may the road rise to meet you may the wind be always at your back may the sun shine warm upon your face the rains fall soft upon your fields and until we meet again may god hold you in the palm of his hand simon p shields programmer viva cristo rey monash university college gippsland ph jhs switchback rd churchill fax australia internet simon giaec cc monash edu au m j
soc.religion.christian	re easter what s in a name was re new testament double stan seanna bnr ca seanna s m watson asks what is the objection to celebration of easter the objection naturally is in the way in which you phrase it easter or eashtar or ishtar or ishtarti or other spellings is the pagan whore goddess of fertility therefore your question to me is what is the objection to celebration of the pagan whore goddess when phrased that way i suspect or at least i would hope that it becomes immeadiately apparent what my objection to celebrating her would be it is celebration of the resurrection of jesus no you are thinking perhaps of ressurection sunday i think though i m not too crazy about the word sunday but i certainly like this phrasing much better than envoking the name of the whore goddess for that matter stay biblical and call it omar rasheet the feast of first fruits torah commands that this be observed on the day following the sabbath of passover week sunday by any other name in modern parlance why is there so much objection to observing the resurrection on the st day of the week on which it actually occured why jump it all over the calendar the way easter does why not just go with the sunday following passover the way the bible has it why seek after unbiblical methods i don t recall a command in scripture for us to celebrate the resurrection but it is the sole and only reason that we are christians how could we not celebrate it so what does this question have to do with easter the whore goddess i am all for celebrating the resurrection just keep that whore out of the discussion if it is only the name which is a problem i suggest that if we are too concerned about etymology there are a lot of words we are going to have to drop as an aside some terminally pc people here in ottawa want dictionaries to be altered so that there are no negative definitions associated with the word black so as not to offend people of colour yes i have heard of your newspapers speaking of the need to repave streets with afro canadiantop grin i still think blacktop sounds better though as a short person i hope they will also remove the definition curt or surly associated with my physical description fine by me and while we are at it the left handed people are both sinister and gauche so we probably will have some objections from that quarter as well in quebec french the word for the celebration of the resurrection is pa ques this is etymologically related to pesach passover and the pascal lamb so is the french canadian mostly roman catholic celebration better because it uses the right name yes that sounds much better to me is there anyone out there would thinks that phrasing sounds worse so from this i infer that there are different rules for christians of jewish descent what happened to there is neither jew nor greek slave nor free male nor female for all are one in christ jesus read the letter to philemon now tell me was philemon s slave returned to him were there different rules upon the slave than upon philemon how about male and female are there different rules that apply to them as well or if there is no more male and female can adam and steve get married to each other in your congregation yes there are differences in form and function but the way we come to salvation in messiah remains the same no matter what our position in life i am in general not in favor of continuing this discussion as it seems repetitive but this particular point is one that i believe is new the objection is not to having a holiday but to its name i d like to suggest that people think very carefully about this argument words often change their meaning over time the days of the week are of course originally based on pagan gods some christians prefer to refer to first day second day etc however the majority of christians have not been persuaded the question seems to be whether it makes any difference what the dictionary shows as the derivation of a word if what people mean by it and think when they use it is different indeed i d like to suggest that postings like this could themselves be dangerous suppose people in general use easter to mean the celebration of christ s resurrection postings trying to convince them that they really mean a celebration in honor of some godess run the risk of creating exactly the situation that they claim to oppose they are doing their best to create a linkage in people s minds between their celebration and the pagan goddess it s not clear that this is a healthy thing clh
soc.religion.christian	end of discussion easter i just about closed this once before i m now doing so for real after tonight s posting
soc.religion.christian	easter not derived from ishtar several recent posts have identified the english word easter with the babylonian goddess ishtar easter is a pagan word all right but it has nothing to do with ishtar if easter and ishtar were related their history would show it but in old english easter was eostre cognate with english east and german ost the reconstructed proto germanic form is austron not until after did easter have a high front vowel like ishtar clearly the two words have quite separate origins there may be neo pagans who worship ishtar at easter but if so they are making either a mistake of etymology or a deliberate play on words michael covington ph d linguistics michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
soc.religion.christian	re easter what s in a name was re new testament double stan daniel segard dsegard nyx cs du edu wrote a lot of stuff deleted for that matter stay biblical and call it omar rasheet the feast of first fruits torah commands that this be observed on the day following the sabbath of passover week sunday by any other name in modern parlance why is there so much objection to observing the resurrection on the st day of the week on which it actually occured why jump it all over the calendar the way easter does why not just go with the sunday following passover the way the bible has it why seek after unbiblical methods in fact that is the reason easter jumps all over the calendar passsover itself is a lunar holiday not a solar one and thus falls over a wide possible span of times the few times that easter does not fall during or after passover are because easter is further linked to the vernal equinox the beginning of spring more deletions so what does this question have to do with easter the whore goddess i am all for celebrating the resurrection just keep that whore out of the discussion your obsession with the term whore clouds your argument whore is a value judgement not a descriptive term more deletions overall this argument is an illustration of the etymological fallacy see j p louw semantics of nt greek that is the idea that the true meaning of a word lies in its origins and linguistic form in fact our own experience demonstrates that the meaning of a word is bound up with how it is used not where it came from very few modern people would make any connection whatsoever between easter and ishtar if daniel seagard does then for him it has that meaning but that is a highly idiosyncratic meaning and not one that needs much refutation revdak netcom com
soc.religion.christian	rebuilding the temple was re anybody out there chuck petch writes now it appears that nothing stands in the way of rebuilding and resuming sacrifices as the scriptures indicate will happen in the last days although the israeli government will give the permission to start i think it is the hand of god holding the project until he is ready to let it happen brothers and sisters the time is at hand our redemption is drawing near look up how is a scriptural levitical priesthood resumed are there any jews who can legitimately prove their levite bloodline todd stevens tcsteven iaserv b ingr com
soc.religion.christian	re easter what s in a name was re new testament double stan in article apr athos rutgers edu dsegard nyx cs du edu daniel segard writes seanna bnr ca seanna s m watson asks what is the objection to celebration of easter the objection naturally is in the way in which you phrase it easter or eashtar or ishtar or ishtarti or other spellings is the pagan whore goddess of fertility it is celebration of the resurrection of jesus no you are thinking perhaps of ressurection sunday i think tsk tsk too much argument on non issues i m roman catholic and it seems to me that people celebrate easter and christmas for itself rather than how it relates to jesus i don t really care about some diety if people have some other definition of easter then that s their business don t let it interfere with my easter resurrection sunday where did that come from if people celebrate easter for the cadburry bunny that s their business so from this i infer that there are different rules for christians of jewish descent what happened to there is neither jew nor greek slave nor free male nor female for all are one in christ jesus i ve always been curious about this is jesus important to jews at all i thought he was thought of only as a prophet if that s true what do they celebrate easter for
soc.religion.christian	the mystery in the paradox i have been looking for a book that specifically addresses the mystery of god in the paradox i have read some that touch on the subject in a chapter but would like a more detailed read is anyone aware of any books that deal with this subject please e mail me thanks barbara
soc.religion.christian	when are two people married in god s eyes i would like to get your opinions on this when exactly does an engaged couple become married in god s eyes some say that if the two have publically announced their plans to marry have made their vows to god and are unswervingly committed to one another i realize this is a subjective qualifier they are married joined in god s sight suppose they are unable to get before the altar right at the current time because of purely logistical reasons beyond their control what do you think about this post or e mail me with general responses if you need clarification as to what i am asking please e mail thanks and god bless robert m anderson iii randerso acad sahs uth tmc edu
soc.religion.christian	proof of resurection i have a few minor problems with the article posted as proof of christ s resurrection first the scriptural quotations this sort of reasoning is such that if you beleive you are justified if not then your beleif is in vain so you might as well beleive most of these quotations are of people who do beleive people who would try to justify their own positions second the logical proof quoted text from xx yfn ysu edu family magazine sysops subject witness proof of christ s resurrection date apr gmt much deleted in nearly centuries no body has ever been produced to refute jesus assertion that he would indeed rise from the dead the probability of being able to perpetrate such a hoax successfully upon the entire world for nearly centuries is astronomically negative end quoted text the period of time that has elapsed from the event growing larger does not increase the odds that a hoax would be discovered in fact the longer a hoax is perpetuated the stronger it becomes finally there is no proof of the resurrection of christ except in our spirits communion with his and the father s it is a matter of faith belief without logical proof incedently one of the largest stumbling blocks for rational western man myself included i hope that this is taken in the spirit it was intended and not as a rejection of the resurrection s occurance i beleive but i wanted to point out the weakness of logical proofs
soc.religion.christian	re every lent he suffers to save us correction the story i related is one of the seven apparitions approved by our church as worthy of belief it happened in la salle france that should be la salette france i must admit geography is not my forte once again the lamb succeeds marida spreading god s words through actions mother teresa
soc.religion.christian	re the arrogance of christians in article apr athos rutgers edu caralv caralv auto trol com carol alvin writes vbv r d eeap cwru edu virgilio dean b velasco jr writes in article apr athos rutgers edu caralv caralv auto trol com carol alvin writes are all truths also absolutes is all of scripture truths and therefore absolutes if the answer to either of these questions is no then perhaps you can explain to me how you determine which parts of scripture are truths and which truths are absolutes the answer to both questions is yes perhaps we have different definitions of absolute then to me an absolute is something that is constant across time culture situations etc true in every instance possible do you agree with this definition i think you do similarly all truth is absolute indeed a non absolute truth is a contradiction in terms when is something absolute when it is always true obviously if a truth is not always true then we have a contradiction in terms yes i do agree with your definition my use of the term always is rather deceptive i admit a simple example in the new testament sorry i don t have a bible at work and can t provide a reference women are instructed to be silent and cover their heads in church now this is scripture by your definition this is truth and therefore absolute hold it i said that all of scripture is true however discerning exactly what jesus paul and company were trying to say is not always so easy i don t believe that paul was trying to say that all women should behave that way rather he was trying to say that under the circumstances at the time the women he was speaking to would best avoid volubility and cover their heads this has to do with maintaining a proper witness toward others remember that any number of relativistic statements can be derived from absolutes for instance it is absolutely right for christians to strive for peace however this does not rule out trying to maintain world peace by resorting to violence on occasion yes my opinion evangelicals are clearly not taking this particular part of scripture to be absolute truth and there are plenty of other examples can you reconcile this sure the bible preaches absolute truths however exactly what those truths are is sometimes a matter of confusion as i said the bible does preach absolute truths sometimes those fundamental principles are crystal clear at least to evangelicals sometimes they are not so clear to everyone e g should baptism be by full immersion or not etc that is largely because sometimes it is not explicitly spelled out whether the writers are speaking to a particular culture or to christianity as a whole this is where scholarship and the study of biblical contexts comes in it s very difficult to see how you can claim something which is based on your own interpretation is absolute god revealed his truths to the world through his word it is utterly unavoidable however that some people whill come up with alternate interpretations practically anything can be misinterpreted especially when it comes to matters of right and wrong care to deny that virgilio dean velasco jr department of electrical eng g and applied physics cwru graduate student roboticist in training and q wannabee bullwinkle that man s intimidating a referee my boss is a not very well he doesn t look like one at all jewish carpenter
soc.religion.christian	re eternity of hell was re hell db n andrew cmu edu d andrew byler writes and we also know that it is impossible to destroy the soul hmmm here s food for thought but rather be in fear of him who can destroy both soul and body in gehenna math jack
soc.religion.christian	need help with they came for the jews quote years ago i grabbed the following from the net maybe from this newsgroup does anyone know of a source for whether this is an accurate quote thanks bartletts leaves out the homosexual lines but they were one of the groups the nazis tried to exterminate in germany they first came for the communists and i didn t speak up because i wasn t a communist then they came for the jews and i didn t speak up because i wasn t a jew then they came for the trade unionists and i didn t speak up because i wasn t a trade unionist then they came for the homosexuals and i didn t speak up because i wasn t a homosexual then they came for the catholics and i didn t speak up because i was a protestant then they came for me but by that time there was no one left to speak up pastor martin neimoller
soc.religion.christian	re accepting jeesus in your heart in article athos rutgers edu jayne mmalt guild org jayne kulikauskas writes gsu uxa ecn bgu edu eric molas writes firstly i am an atheist i am not posting here as an immature flame start but rather to express an opinion to my intended audience deleted we are just animals we need sleep food and we reproduce and we die i don t meant to defend eric molas i find it somewhat annoying when someone pops up on alt atheism to tell us all about his usually atheistic beliefs so i can certainly see how christians might be annoyed but i d like to point out a few things i am glad that i am not an atheist it seems tragic that some people choose a meaningless existence no meaning from god is not the same as no meaning from my atheistic point of view if you want meaning in your life you get to go and get some or make some no free gifts of meaning i never quite understood how any god can just give your life meaning actually if he says you exists to do or be x that gives you a purpose if you care to accept it but is that the same thing but i digress how terrible to go on living only because one fears death more than life this would truely be a miserably existance which i doubt eric endures life can be enjoyable so you can live it because you like it or purposefull so you can live it to get something done one should endeavour to make it so if it is not otherwise it would be as you say terrible i feel so sorry for eric and yet any attempts to share my joy in life with him would be considered as further evidence of the infectious nature of christianity probably true remeber he almost certainly sees that particular joy as an illusion and does not want it so maybe it isn t so bad as a christian i am free to be a human person i think love choose and create as an atheist i am free to be a human person i think love choose and create i will live forever with god ah now here we begin to diverge i will not live forever with anyone i don t think you will either but you are welcome to your opinion on the matter christ is not a kind of drug i tend to agree with you it s my opinion that unlike drugs religions are normal parts of human societies i think they have outlived their usefullness but they are evidently quite ordinary normal things that haven t proved lethal to humanity yet drugs are a replacement for christ those who have an empty spot in the god shaped hole in their hearts must do something to ease the pain i have heard this claim quite a few times does anybody here know who first came up with the god shaped hole business this is why the most effective substance abuse recovery programs involve meeting peoples spiritual needs you might want to provide some evidence next time you make a claim like this thank you eric for your post it has helped me to appreciate how much god has blessed me i hope that you will someday have a more joy filled and abundant life i don t know eric but i do not think it is wise to assume he has a less joy filled and abundant life because he holds certain beliefs dan johnson and god said jeeze this is dull and it was dull genesis these opinions probably show what i know
soc.religion.christian	clarification easter in response to a lot of email i ve gotten i need to clarify my position i am not in favor of paganism i am not in favor of the easter bunny or other non christian aspects of easter as presently celebrated incidentally easter eggs are not non christian they are a way of ending the lenten fast my point was to distinguish between intentionally worshipping a pagan deity and doing something which may once have had pagan associations but nowadays is not understood or intended as such many people who are doing are being accused of it would be illogical to claim that one is really worshipping a pagan deity without knowing it worship is a matter of intention one cannot worship without knowing that one is doing so michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
soc.religion.christian	re prophetic warning to new york city i just started reading the group i was wondering if someone could re post exactly what the prophetic warning to nyc was thanks jh i suggest sending it to him via email with a cc to me i ll hold it in my files in case someone else needs it clh
soc.religion.christian	same sex marriages there has been some talk recently of latin rites from the early church used to bless same sex unions if anyone has any idea where copies of these rites exist in whole or in part please notify me by e mail i understand that similar ceremonies written in slavonic exist as well let me know where i can find these it doesn t matter whether the latin rite is in the original or a translation however i would prefer to have an english version of the slavon ic rite if it exists thanks in advance doug hayes psu we ve had questions about this in the past the only source i know of is claims by john boswell in some talks he is said to be working on publication but as far as i know nothing is published yet i haven t heard of any other source if anyone knows of another source please tell us but i think we re going to have to wait for boswell s publication to appear in order to see what he s really talking about clh
soc.religion.christian	re eternity of hell was re hell darius darius lecointe dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu writes darius vic mmalt guild org vic kulikauskas writes darius let me suggest this maybe those who believe in the eternal darius hell theory should provide all the biblical evidence they can darius find for it stay away from human theories and only take darius into account references in the bible like most topics we ve been through this one before but here is a good start matthew then they will go away to eternal punishment but the righteous to eternal life i may post more on this subject when i have more time in any case it is clear that the fate of the damned is most unpleasant and to be avoided david wagner sola scriptura a confessional lutheran i d like to suggest that discussions based on single quotations are a bad way to proceed there are passages consistent with either theory the sensible way to proceed is to look at them all and see if we can come up with a view that encompasses all of them clh
soc.religion.christian	re a question that has bee bothering me in article apr athos rutgers edu atterlep vela acs oakland edu cardinal ximenez writes religious people are threatened by science because it has been systematically removing the physical proofs of god s existence as time goes on we have to rely more and more on faith and the spiritual world to relate to god becuase science is removing our props i don t think this is a bad thing first of all i resent your assumption that you know why i am threatened by science or even that i am threatened at all although i admit the latter the reason i am threatened by science has nothing to do with my need for proof of my lord s existence god reveals himself in many ways including to some degree science my problem with science is that often it allows us to assume we know what is best for ourselves god endowed us with the ability to produce life through sexual relations for example but he did not make that availible to everyone does that mean that if science can over ride god s decision through alterations that god wills for us to have the power to decide who should and should not be able to have children should men be allowed to have babies if that is made possible people have always had the ability to end lives unnaturally and soon may have the ability to bring lives into the world unnaturally the closest thing to artificially created life is artificially created death and as god has reserved judgement about when people should die to himself i believe we should rely on god s wisdom about how people should be brought in to the world this is not to say that i reject all forms of medical treatment however treatment that alleviates pain or prevents pain from occuring is perfectly acceptable i believe as it was acceptable for jesus to cure the sick however treatment that merely prolongs life for no reason or makes unnecessary alterations to the body for mere aesthetic purposes go too far are we not happy with the beauty god gave us i cannot draw a solid line regarding where i would approve of scientific study and where i would not but i will say this before one experiments with the universe to find out all its secrets one should ask why they want this knowledge before one alters the body they have been given they should ask themseles why their body is not satisfactory too them as it is i cannot make any general rules that will cover all the cases but i will say that each person should pray for guidance when trying to unravel the mysteries of the universe and should cease their unravelling if they have reason to believe their search is displeasing to god malcusco
soc.religion.christian	re ancient books in article apr athos rutgers edu miner kuhub cc ukans edu writes any former atheists converted by argument this is an excellent question and i ll be anxious to see if there are any such cases i doubt it in the medieval period esp th cent when aquinas flourished argument was a useful tool because everyone knew the rules today when you can t count on people knowing even the basics of logic or seeing through rhetoric a good argument is often indistinguishable from a poor one the last sentence is ironic since so many readers of soc religion christian seem to not be embarrassed by apologists such as josh mcdowell and c s lewis the above also expresses a rather odd sense of history what makes you think the masses in aquinas day who were mostly illiterate knew any more about rhetoric and logic than most people today if writings from the period seem elevated consider that only the cream of the crop so to speak could read and write if everyone in the medieval period knew the rules it was a matter of uncritically accepting what they were told bill mayne this may be unfair to lewis the most prominent fallacy attributed to him is the liar lunatic and lord as quoted by many christians this is a logical fallacy in its original context it was not clh
soc.religion.christian	re pantheism environmentalism in article apr athos rutgers edu mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington writes in article apr athos rutgers edu heath athena cs uga edu terrance heath writes i realize i m entering this discussion rather late but i do have one question wasn t it a reagan appointee james watt a pentacostal christian i think who was the secretary of the interior who saw no problem with deforestation since we were living in the last days and ours would be the last generation to see the redwoods anyway i heard the same thing but without confirmation that he actually said it it was just as alarming to us as to you the bible says that nobody knows when the second coming will take place nor does it say that if you do find out when it will happen you should rape everything in sight just before
soc.religion.christian	re the arrogance of christians in article apr athos rutgers edu caralv caralv auto trol com carol alvin writes vbv r d eeap cwru edu virgilio dean b velasco jr writes in article apr athos rutgers edu caralv caralv auto trol com carol alvin writes are all truths also absolutes is all of scripture truths and therefore absolutes the answer to both questions is yes perhaps we have different definitions of absolute then to me an absolute is something that is constant across time culture situations etc true in every instance possible do you agree with this definition i think you do similarly all truth is absolute indeed a non absolute truth is a contradiction in terms when is something absolute when it is always true obviously if a truth is not always true then we have a contradiction in terms i agree with carol here determining absolutes is practically speaking a waste of time and we easily forget that relative truth is in fact relative for example i recently was asking some children the question what temperature does water boil at i got the answer degrees consistently i asked if they knew what scale and was told it s just degrees any scale that s what all thermometers say well that s sincere and may be true in the experience of the speaker but it is simply wrong it is not an absolute truth similarly scripture is full of truth which we should nurture and cherish but trying to determine which parts are absolute truth and which parts are the manifestations of that in the context of the time and culture in which the text was penned is missing the point then religion easily becomes an intellectual head trip devoid of the living experience of the indwelling trinity and becomes dead scholasticism imo example of head covering in church deleted this was a good example there may be an absolute truth behind the writing but the simplest understanding of the passage is that the instructions apply to the corinthians and not necessarily elsewhere the instructions may reflect absolute truth in the context of first century culture and the particular climate at corinth which was having a lot of trouble with order is it absolute truth to me no and i see no compelling or even reasonable reason that it should be evangelicals are clearly not taking this particular part of scripture to be absolute truth and there are plenty of other examples can you reconcile this even the most die hard literalists do not take all of the bible literally i ve yet to meet anyone who takes the verse blessed is he who takes your babies and smashes their heads against the rocks literally the bible was not printed or handed to us by god with color codings to tell us what parts should be interpreted which way many people claim that there are no absolutes in the world such a statement is terribly self contradictory let me put it to you this way if there are no absolutes shouldn t we conclude that the statement there are no absolutes is not absolutely true obviously we have a contradiction here i don t claim that there are no absolutes i think there are very few though and determining absolutes is difficult i agree very few and even if we knew them personally we may not be able to express that in a way that still conveys absolute truth to another the presence of absence of absolutes may not make any difference since i know i can never fully apprehend an absolute if it walks up and greets me there is hardly consensus even in evangelical christianity not to mention the rest of christianity regarding biblical interpretation so people sometimes disagree about what is true this does not negate the fact however that there are still absolutes in the universe i can t prove the existence of absolutes i can only rely upon my experience i also trust god s revelation that we cannot fully comprehend the infinite therefore we can t comprehend the absolutes so i don t need them i can never know the essence of god only the energies by and through which god is manifested to god s creation so the reality can be that there are absolutes but it is of no practical importance it s like claiming that the original scriptural autographs were perfect but copies may not be swell who cares it doesn t affect me in any practical useful way i might as well believe that god has made a lot of electric blue chickens and that they live on mars maybe god did so what is that going to have any effect on how i deal with my neighbor or god whether or not i go to this or that cafeteria for lunch no this attitude leads many non christians to believe that all christians are arrogant idiots incapable of critical reasoning christianity is true wonderful and sensible it appeals to reason since reason is an inner reflection of the logos of god explanations that violate that simply appear to be insecure authoritarian responses to a complex world note i m not claiming there is no place for authority that d be silly there is a world of difference between authoritative and authoritarian authoritative is en expression of authority that respects others authoritarian is en expression of authority that fails to do that and is generally agressive good parents like god are authoritative many christians are simply authoritarian and not surprisingly few adults respond to this treatment larry overacker llo shell com lawrence overacker shell oil company information center houston tx llo shell com
soc.religion.christian	re atheist s views on christianity was re accepting jeesus in your heart in article apr athos rutgers edu trajan cwis unomaha edu stephen mcintyre writes norris athena mit edu writes the discussion begins why does the universe exist at all must there be a why to this i ask because of what you also assume about god namely that he just exists with no why to his existence so the question is reversed why can t we assume the universe just exists as you assume god to just exist why must there be a why to the universe one of the laws of nature specifying cause and effect seems to dictate at least to this layman s mind there must be a causal event no reasonable alternative exists as far as i can tell the very laws of nature demand a why that isn t true of something outside of nature i e super natural it may be that one day man not only can create life but can also create man now i don t see this happening in my lifetime nor do i assert it is probable but the possibility is there given scientists are working hard at decoding out genetic code to perhaps help cure disease of a genetic variation again though must there be why or a divine prupose to man s existence i believe the genetic code will be entirely deciphered in our lifetimes but we will not see man convert entirely inert material into self sustaining reproducing life ever i ve never been much of a prophet though i can t even picture new york in my mind i don t believe any technology would be able to produce that necessary spark of life despite having all of the parts available just my opinion when you say that man is only an animal i have to think that you are presenting an unprovable statement a dogma if you will and one the requires a kind of faith too by taking such a hard line in your atheism you may have stumbled into a religion of your own as far as we can tell man falls into the mammal catagory now that preposition sort of precludes an absolute doesn t it without an absolute conclusion what are we left with i believe the word faith works nicely if there were something more to the man say a soul then we have yet to find evidence of such but as it is now man is a mammal babies are born live mother gives milk we re warm blooded etc as other mammals are and is similar in genetic construction to some of them in particular primates for more on this check out talk origins but before you write off all christianity as phony and shallow i hope you ll do a little research into its history and varieties perhaps by reading paul johnson s a history of christianity from your remarks it seems that you have been exposed to certain types of christian religion and not others even an atheist should have enough faith in man to know that a movement of years has to have some depth and be animated by some enduring values well then buddhism confucianism taoism hinduism judaism zoerasterism shintoism and islam should fit this bit of logic quite nicely all have depth all have enduring values thus all must be true well then with an equal scale and under an equal standard investigate them all and discover where god is or whether he is for the denial of god is ultimately a statement of faith non falsifiable as his existence may be for isn t this the purpose of religion to discover and in discovery to know god you don t mind if a few of us send up a prayer on your behalf during your research do you after all if we of christ are deluding ourselves you really have nothing to worry about eh until the king returns jason jason d smith jasons atlastele com i m not young enough to know everything x
soc.religion.christian	re the arrogance of christians they believe the danger is real but others may not does that mean that the first group are necessarily arrogant in warning others of the danger does it mean that they are saying that their beliefs are correct and all others are false some might indeed react to opposition with arrogance and behave in an arrogant manner but that is a personal idiocyncracy it does not necessarily mean that they are all arrogant no the members of the first group are not necessarily arrogant but when i ask them if they are absolutely certain that the volcano will erupt i expect them to say so no but i ve chosen to believe some knowledgable people who have determined that the volcano will erupt rather than yes i am absolutely certain when it comes to religious discussions arrogance or at best naivete is reflected in the latter type of statement louis j kim o ph southwest research institute fax post office drawer lkim swri edu san antonio tx compuserve com
soc.religion.christian	re sspx schism in article apr athos rutgers edu simon giaeb cc monash edu au simon shields writes hi all hope you all had a blessed easter i have a document which i believe refutes the notion that the sspx society of saint pius x is in schism or that there has been any legitimate excommunication if anyone is interested in reading the truth about this matter please email me and i ll send them the document via email its pages long so i wont be posting it on the news group i may be interesting to see some brief selections posted to the net my understanding is that sspx does not consider itself in schism or legitimately excommunicated but that s really beside the point what does the roman catholic church say excommunication can be real apart from formal excommunication as provided for in canon law after all we orthodox don t cinsider ourselves schismatic or excommunicated but the catholic church considers us dissident if this is inappropriate for this group or beyond the charter i m sure ofm will let us know larry overacker llo shell com lawrence overacker shell oil company information center houston tx llo shell com i think it s within the charter whether this is actually the best group in which to discuss it is up to the people concerned i am not interested in having this reinvoke the general catholic protestant polemics but i don t see why it should the issue is primarily one specific to catholics clh
soc.religion.christian	need a book i appreciate if anyone can point out some good books about the dead sea scrolls of qumran thanks in advance please reply by e mail at bassili cs arizona edu
soc.religion.christian	re what did lazarus smell like in article apr athos rutgers edu rolfe dsuvax dsu edu tim rolfe writes my guess is that the lazarus come out was also for the sake of the crowd i read somewhere i think in morton smith s jesus the magician that old lazarus wasn t dead but going in the tomb was part of an initiation rite for a magi cult of which jesus was also a part it appears that a day stay was normal i wonder i haven t read that book but another one by smith in which similar claims were made about jesus while i m sure smith knows more about early chrisitanity than i do i found his arguments similar to those of books like holy blood holy grail building conjectures on top of other conjectures there was no direct evidence if you d like to summarize the argument for us i d be happy to see it but in doing so i d like you to pay careful attention to the nature of the evidence clh
soc.religion.christian	re questions from a newbie jerry kaufman writes the bible says that he looks on the heart as the final measure from that perspective in a grading context the heart is the final test very true one might also say that life is an open book test
soc.religion.christian	re pantheism environmentalism in article apr athos rutgers edu mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington writes in article apr athos rutgers edu heath athena cs uga edu terrance heath writes i realize i m entering this discussion rather late but i do have one question wasn t it a reagan appointee james watt a pentacostal christian i think who was the secretary of the interior who saw no problem with deforestation since we were living in the last days and ours would be the last generation to see the redwoods anyway i heard the same thing but without confirmation that he actually said it it was just as alarming to us as to you the bible says that nobody knows when the second coming will take place michael a covington i do recall watt making a comment to this effect though it was quite a few years back and i can t cite the specifics i also recall that cecil andrus who was secretary of the interior during the carter administration responded to watt s comments by pointing out the stewardship role that god gave to man as recorded in genesis which makes me wonder who are the true conservatives it seems to me that a conservative should want to conserve things of value for long term societal benefit this form of conservation should logically extend to the physical environment in which people live as well as the moral environment in which they relate to one another and to god imho watt s stewardship status is not enhanced by the fact that he served on the board of directors for jim bakker s organization during a time in which bakker committed criminal acts which eventually landed bakker in federal prison bob rgolder hoh mbl edu just another baptist
soc.religion.christian	re quality of catholic liturgy in article apr athos rutgers edu creps lateran ucs indiana edu stephen a creps writes in article apr athos rutgers edu jemurray magnus acs ohio state edu john e murray writes on palm sunday at our parish we were invited to take the role of jesus in the passion i declined to participate last year at the liturgy meeting i pointed out how we crucify christ by our sins so therefore it is appropriate that we retain the role of the crowd but to no avail musicians readers and so on new things are introduced in the course of the liturgy and since no one knows what s happening the new things have to be explained and pretty soon instead of doing a lot of the mass we re just sitting there listening or spacing out in my case to how the mass is about to be done in my mind i lay the blame on liturgy committees made up of lay people to be aware of the lord s presence as a former catholic and now as a very active lutheran it is some of the innovations of the mass which made me leave the catholic church and return to the more traditional catholic chuch the lutherans i spent many years as a lector reading the passion parts as appropriate in the catholic church and i found it very meaningful our lutheran parish just instituted the tenebrae service for good friday and i was the lector for a paraphrased passion which was exceptional i heard and learned things that i have previously overlooked in the gospels yet those facts were always there as a matter of interest the pastor and i were talking about the differences between the rc and lutheran church during holy week over breakfast easter sunday as a member of a liturgy committee i can tell you that the problem is certain people dominating who want to try out all kinds of innovations the priests don t seem even to want to make any decisions of their own in many cases i guess it s easier to try something new than it is to refuse to allow it my wife is the member of the liturgy committee in the family called music and worship at our church our pastor does have control of this committee but listens very carefully to the committee s suggestions it needs a strong hand to lead and guide to keep the intent and the message clear and strong as it should be through lent and the rest of the liturgical year additional reason for my leaving the catholic faith lack of any selfless spiritual guidance by priests in my parishes aka wishy washy as you may gather from my comments i feel that it is very important ir regardless of denominational guidelines to have a service mass which promotes the true reason that we are gathered there i am quite comfortable in a traditional mass with receiving holy communion on the tongue the sacrament of penance not reconciliation stations of the cross so on and so forth the reason other types of masses and parishes exist is because these feelings are not shared by everyone i want more people to attend church and to find the lord but i don t want them attending a show it s not my church works hard to have a meaningful service during lent on wednesdays but follow traditional lutheran book of worship guidelines where things are changed or omitted during lent such as the hymn of praise it is noted so that we are aware of the reasons that it is not there quite frankly it is very hard for a non catholic to go to a mass and fit in my dear wife never could former methodist and holy week masses and vigils would intimidate the daylights out of a non catholic those catholics who have beared with me this far understand what i mean please keep in mind why we are there to gather together in worship not to worry about how something is done or not done if there is something wrong that you feel needs addressing by all means talk to your priest or pastor i have only ever met one who wouldn t listen they are there to provide spiritual guidance and to help use them my differences with the catholic church are much more fundamental but my decision to change faiths was done with prayer intervention and sessions with priests and ministers in christ kershner kershner wyatt kwyatt ccscola columbiasc ncr com my opinions are my own and aren t necessarily my employer s
soc.religion.christian	mission aviation fellowship hi does anyone know anything about this group and what they do any info would be appreciated thanks
soc.religion.christian	re sda doctrinal distinctives in article mar athos rutgers edu jodfishe silver ucs indiana edu joseph dale fisher writes there is a book provided by the sda which is entitled the seventh day adventist church believes or something like that it is a basic coverage of the ideas that sda s hold to for further info about it please write me later once i get the actual title and or copyright date or celia chan cmchan amber ucs indiana edu because she first introduced me to the book i must also add that she is not a member of the sda anymore the book is called basic fundamental beliefs or something very close to that the number is not i have a copy at home i m away at school tammy
soc.religion.christian	national day of prayer the n a t i o n a l d a y o f p r a y e r m a y immmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm join america in prayer to acknowledge our dependence upon god give thanks for his many blessings ask god to guide our leaders and to bring healing reconciliation and whole ness to our nation and all its people hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm our founding fathers said george washington i now make it my earnest prayer that god a d would be pleased to dispose us all to do justice to love mercy and to demean ourselves with charity and humility and a pacific temper of mind which were characteristics of the divine author of our blessed religion and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things we can never hope to be a happy nation john adams it must be felt that there is no national security a d but in the nation s humble acknowledged dependence upon god and his overruling providence abraham lincoln it is the duty of nations as well as of men a d to own their dependence upon the overruling power of god to confess their sins and transgressions and to recognize the sublime truth announced in the holy scriptures and proven by all history that those nations only are blessed whose god is the lord note you can join with people in your area in observing the national day of prayer to learn who is affiliated with the concerts of prayer group in your area contact mr barry garred coordinator p o box springdale arkansas voice fax
soc.religion.christian	christianity atheism an update first i would like to thank all who sent me their opinions on the matter at hand all advice was taken to heart if not directly used my friend found out about the matter quite accidently after reading some of my mail i quit from the mail reader went about my business i must have trashed my mail improperly because he got on the same terminal the next day saw my old messages he thought they were responses to a post he placed in alt atheism earlier that week so he read some of them before realizing that they were for me i got a message from him the next day he apologized for reading my mail said that he did not want to appear to be a snoop he said that he would be willing to talk to me about his views didn t mind doing so especially with a friend so we did i neither changed his mind nor did he change mine as that was not the point now he knows where i m coming from now i know where he s coming from and all that i can do is pray for him as i ve always done i believe the reason that he i click instead of bash heads is because i see christianity as a tool for revolution not a tool for maintaining the status quo to be quite blunt i have more of a reason to reject god than he does just by the fact that i am an african american female christianity religion have been used as tools to separate my people from the true knowledge of our history the wealth of our contributions to the world society the kitchen of heaven was all we had to look forward to during the slave days this mentality second class status still exists today i too have rejected an aspect of christianity that of the estabished church too much hypocricy exists behind the walls of god s house beginning with the images of a white jesus to that of the members praise god on sunday raise hell beginning monday god willing i will find a church home where i can feel comfortable at home but i don t see it happening anytime soon sherlette
soc.religion.christian	re sex education regarding the moral question jen jenk microsoft com asked is it okay to create a child if you aren t able to be a good parent i am reminded of a speech by one of the characters i can t remember which in the movie parenthood i am way to liberal with my quotation marks tonight in this so called by me speech the character is expressing what a lousy father he had and he made an interesting point he said something to the effect of you have to have a license to drive a car you have to have a license to own a dog you even have to have a license to fish but they ll anyone have a kid keep in mind that i am in no way trying to pass this off as a quote it is probably grossly distorted but i think you get the point mike mattone
soc.religion.christian	re nature of god re environmentalism and paganism in article apr athos rutgers edu heath athena cs uga edu terrance heath writes fortunately my own personal theology which will probably not fall into line with a lot others recognized god as a being both without gender and posessing qualities of both genders as being both a masculine and feminine force that is not necessarily unorthodox when christians call god father we are using a metaphor the bible in one place refers to god as being like a mother god is neither a father nor a mother in the literal sense god has some of the attributes of both the father metaphor is usually used because for most people at most times it is the less misleading of the two possibilities michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
soc.religion.christian	daily verse he who overcomes will inherit all this and i will be his god and he will be my son revelation
soc.religion.christian	re certainty and arrogance in article apr athos rutgers edu kilroy gboro rowan edu dr nancy s sweetie writes dean velasco quoted a letter from james m stowell president of moody bible institute we affirm the absolutes of scripture not because we are arrogant moralists but because we believe in god who is truth who has revealed his truth in his word and therefore we hold as precious the strategic importance of those absolutes there has been a lot of discussion but so far nobody seems to have hit on exactly what the criticism of arrogance is aimed at lots of stuff deleted this is where the arrogance of christians arises many people believe that their own personal research can give them absolute certainty about the doctrines of christianity they are implicitly claiming that they are infallible and that there is no possibility of mistake claiming that you cannot have made a mistake and that your thinking has led you to a flawless conclusion is pretty arrogant i agree with what darren has to say here but would like to add a personal observation what i see as arrogance and the problem i have with it is not a sense of personal certainty but a lack of respect for others who come to differing conclusions clearly this is not just christian vs non christian there is a whole spectrum of belief systems within christianity i do not tend to argue with others about matters of personal faith because like aesthetics it is not demonstable by objective means choosing what to believe and rely on are important areas of personal sovereignty what bothers me is when others suggest that in these matters of faith their specific beliefs are not only true to them but are absolute and should be binding on others it follows from this that god must give everyone the same revelation of truth and thus anyone who comes to a different conclusion is intentionally choosing the wrong path this is the arrogance i see a lack of respect for the honest conclusions of others on matters which are between them and god even a personal certainty leaves room for the beliefs of others it is universalizing those matters of personal faith coupled by a proud notion that one s relationship with god is superior to other s that leads to arrogance in my honest and nonuniversal opinion darren f provine kilroy gboro rowan edu at the core of all well founded belief lies belief that is unfounded ludwig wittgenstein comments criticism welcome ken alvin ucsu colorado edu it is certainly reasonable to ask for some humility about our own ability to know the truth there are also different paths in some areas of practice but i d like to see more clarification about what you mean when you reject the idea of saying their specific beliefs are not only true to them but are absolute and should be binding on others if something is true it is true for everyone assuming that the belief is something about god history etc of course something of the form i believe that it s best for me not to xxx could be true for some people and not others i have suggested in the past that god may be less concerned about doctrinal agreement than many people are but that doesn t mean i doubt that there is a difference between true and false nor that i think there is no benefit in finding out what is true clh
soc.religion.christian	re easter what s in a name was re new testament double stan mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington writes and the same goes for other cultural practices the festival of easter may possibly have some historical association with some pagan festival but today there are as far as i know no christians who intend to honor any kind of pagan goddess by celebrating easter that argument would be more compelling if it were not for the ishtar eggs and ishtar bunnies why mix pagan fertility symbols from the worship of the pagan goddess of fertility with biblical belief what would really be lost if all of you were to just drop the word easter and replace all such occurances with resurrection sunday would you not show up for services if they were called resurrection sunday services rather than easter services
soc.religion.christian	re can sin block our prayers in article apr athos rutgers edu jayne mmalt guild org jayne kulikauskas writes this verse also makes me think of the kind of husband who decides what is god s will for his family without consulting his wife god reveals his will to both the husband and the wife there needs to be some degree of mutuality in decision making even those whose understanding of the bible leads to a belief in an authoritarian headship of the husband need to incorporate this in order to have a functional family one way to look at it is that god speaks to the wife through the husband and to the husband through the wife jayne kulikauskas jayne mmalt guild org i agree god makes the husband the head of the house but he surely can t do it alone he needs the help of his beloved wife whom the lord gave him at least that s how it is in my house i thank god for the beautiful woman he has brought into my life i couldn t lead without the help of my wonderful wife john emery i will praise you o lord my god with all my heart emery tc fluke com i will glorify your name forever for great is your love toward me you have delivered me from the depths of the grave psalm
soc.religion.christian	re did he really rise in article apr athos rutgers edu eggertj moses atc ll mit edu jim eggert x g writes i disagree with your claim that jews were not evangelistic except in the narrow sense of the word jewish proselytism was widespread there are numerous accounts of jewish proselytism both in the new testament and in roman and greek documents of the day jim please feel free to correct me and give me some texts as far as i can see the only text which vaugely relates to jewish evangelism is found in mt however since this is found only in mt it cannot be dated before ce which makes it unusefull for understanding second temple judaism randy
soc.religion.christian	re accepting jesus in your heart stuff deleted religion especially christianity is nothing more than a drug some people use drugs as an escape from reality christians inject themselves with jeezus and live with that high your logic is falty if christianity is a drug and once we die we die then why would you be reluctant to embrase this drug so that while you are alive you enjoy yourself i also question your overall motives for posting this article why would you waste your presious fews seconds on this earth posting your opinon to a group that will generally reject it if you die never having acepting christ as your savior i hope you have a fantastic life that it is all you evver dreamed because it is al of heaven you will ever know in christ s love bryan
soc.religion.christian	re the arrogance of christians mhsu lonestar utsa edu melinda hsu writes i d like to share my thoughts on this topic of arrogance of christians and look forward to any responses in my encounters with christians i find myself dismayed by their belief that their faith is total truth according to them their beliefs come from the bible and the bible is the word of god and god is truth thus they know the truth this stance makes it difficult to discuss other faiths with them and my own hesitations about christianity because they see no other way their way is the truth but i see their faith arising from a willful choice to believe a particular way that choice is part faith and part reason but it seems to me a choice i m sort of mystified about how a christian might respond to this i ll start with a parable a christian woman hires a carpenter to build her a birdhouse when he comes over they begin talking about religion so you believe that you understand god he asks yes i do she replies then have him build you the birdhouse i don t think that melinda is complaining about the basis of christian belief however there is a tendency among christians to say i have all the answers because god gave them to me this is simply not the case i believe that the bible is inerrant however our human interpretations of the bible are necessarily in error because we are human and imperfect we have to remember that we all make mistakes in faith and that because we are human we have an imperfect understanding of the mind and will of god to claim as so many people do that the existence of the bible allows us to determine the answers to all questions is to claim that we humans can fully understand god s will this is hubris
soc.religion.christian	re the arrogance of christians in article apr athos rutgers edu dleonar andy bgsu edu pixie writes do the words question authority mean anything to you i defy any theist to reply for all those people who insist i question authority why chris mussack this is another example of my biting raw edged humor that is neither appreciated nor understood by everyone messy hair glasses winking smiling big chin
soc.religion.christian	re ancient books in article apr athos rutgers edu whheydt pbhya pacbell com wilson heydt writes as for the dating of the oldest extant texts of the nt how would you feel about the us civil war in a couple of thousand years if the only extant text was written about now now adjust for a largely illiterate population and one in which every copy of a manuscript is done by hand considerably better than i feel about say the punic wars or the peloponnesian war spelling optional or almost any other event in classical history how close to the events do you think the oldest extent manuscripts are in those cases steve schaffner sschaff unixhub slac stanford edu the opinions expressed may be mine and may not be those of slac stanford university or the doe
soc.religion.christian	online bible as bible study hello i am about to embark on a bible study on acts i have online bible software with me i would like to know the the background of the authors of its various topics articles and about the author of the people s new testament i need to know how realible is the articles in the online bible software specifically for your convenience i want to know about the darby translation i have never heard of this one young s literal translation i have also never heard of the realiability of the hebrew greek lexicon the authors from which denomination etc of the articles in the topics modules the realiability of the treasury of scripture knowlege as i have never heard of too who are the commentators scofield and b w johnson who wrote the scofield reference bible and the people s new testament respectively the realiability of the strong numbers i will be most happy to receive a reply of any of you who knows about the above also please qualify yourself so that i may know that i am not receiving a rubbish letter i just want to make sure wilfred ling name wilfred ling siew wee national university of s pore internet eng nusunix nus sg electrical engineering bitnet eng nusvm bitnet
soc.religion.christian	re the arrogance of christians dleonar andy bgsu edu pixie writes unfaithfully yours pixie p s if you do sincerely believe that a god exists why do you follow it blindly do the words question authority mean anything to you i defy any theist to reply o k i don t follow god blindly once long ago i questioned authority to such a rabid point that i found question authority reject authority unquestioningly i question authority all the time but to forever question is fruitless eventually we have to consider whether there are answers to the questions whether the authority say the bible in this case has validity basically to question authority does not necessarily mean reject authority
soc.religion.christian	re the arrogance of christians carol alvin caralv caralv auto trol com wrote in the new testament sorry i don t have a bible at work and can t provide a reference women are instructed to be silent and cover their heads in church now this is scripture by your definition this is truth and therefore absolute do women in your church speak do they cover their heads if all scripture is absolute truth it seems to me that women speaking in and coming to church with bare heads should be intolerable to evangelicals yet clearly women do speak in evangelical churches and come with bare heads at least this was the case in the evangelical churches i grew up in evangelicals are clearly not taking this particular part of scripture to be absolute truth and there are plenty of other examples can you reconcile this the problem you see here is that some christians claim things about the bible which they don t actually believe or practice i ve known all sorts of christians ranging from the trendiest of liberals to the fire breathing fundamentalists and although many on the conservative side of the christian faith do claim that the bible is a perhaps the source of absolute truth i don t know of anyone who treats it as anything other than a valuable part of a living tradition while i am not a roman catholic i believe this is close to the official position of the rc church perhaps an rc would like to comment the particular practice you refer to will usually be explained in terms of the social context of the time you would think the fact that the conservatives seem to have to break out the tophat and cane and give you some big song and dance routine about why this other passages as well aren t directly applicable today would show them that what they claim about the bible and what they actually practice are two different things but mostly it doens t while this thread is supposed to be about the arrogance of christians i would suggest that some of the problem is really hypocrasy in this case making claims about the bible which the claimants don t actually put into practice but if we step back from the name calling and look at what people are attempting to say we see that they are trying to express very concisely the unique place the bible holds within the christian faith so when people use such words or phrases as word of god inerrant infallibale the manufacturer s handbook the only rule of faith and practice in the church today to describe the bible we should try to hear what they are saying and not just look at the mere words they use some of the above descriptions are demostratably false and others are self contradictory but in my experience people are generally pretty good at picking out the intention of the speaker even when the speaker s words are at variance with their intentions a biblical example is from the garden of eden where god asks where are you and adam explains that he was naked and afraid and hid himself if adam had answered god s words he would have said something like i m here in this tree the problem seems to arise when christians insist that these words are indeed accurate reflections of their beleif most people have not made a determined effort to work out their own understanding of the place of the bible within their own faith and so rely on the phrases and explanations that others use i hope this helps bill rea o o w u w bill rea computer services centre e mail b rea csc canterbury ac nz university of canterbury or cctr csc canterbury ac nz christchurch new zealand phone fax
soc.religion.christian	re did he really rise in article apr athos rutgers edu mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington writes the two historic facts that i think the most important are these if jesus didn t rise from the dead then he must have done something else equally impressive in order to create the observed amount of impact nobody ever displayed the dead body of jesus even though both the jewish and the roman authorities would have gained a lot by doing so it would have discredited the christians michael a covington internet mcovingt ai uga edu artificial intelligence programs phone the university of georgia fax athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi and the two simplest refutations are these what impact the only record of impact comes from the new testament i have no guarantee that its books are in the least accurate and that the recorded impact actually happened i find it interesting that no other contemporary source records an eclipse an earthquake a temple curtain being torn etc the earliest written claim we have of jesus resurrection is from the pauline epistles none of which were written sooner than years after the supposed event it seems probable that no one displayed the body of jesus because no one knew where it was i personally believe that the most likely explanation was that the body was stolen by disciples or by graverobbers don t bother with the point about the guards it only appears in one gospel and seems like exactly the sort of thing early christians might make up in order to counter the grave robbing charge the new testament does record that jews believed the body had been stolen if there were really guards they could not have effectively made this claim as they did scott o
soc.religion.christian	re eternity of hell was re hell in article apr athos rutgers edu dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu darius lecointe writes insert deletion of unnecessary quote why is it that we have this notion that god takes some sort of pleasure from punishing people the purpose of hell is to destroy the devil and his angels first of all god does not take any sort of pleasure from punishing people he will have mercy on whom he will have mercy and compassion on whom he will have compassion ex however if he enjoyed punishing people and sending them to hell then why would he send jesus to seek and save that which was lost luke to the earlier poster who tried to support the eternal hell theory with the fact that the fallen angels were not destroyed remember the bible teaches that god has reserved them until the day of judgement their judgement is soon to come let me suggest this maybe those who believe in the eternal hell theory should provide all the biblical evidence they can find for it stay away from human theories and only take into account references in the bible you asked for it peter ff talks about how those who are ungodly are punished matthew is also very clear that those who do not righteous in god s eyes will be sent to hell for eternity thessalonians states that those who cause trouble for the disciples will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the lord thessalonians talks about those who refuse to love the truth being condemned revelation talks about the difference between those who overcomes and those who do not those who do not listed in verse will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur revelation gives the indication that those who follow the beast will be tormented with burning sulfur and there being no rest day or night for them because of it psalm the wicked return to the grave all the nations that forget god i think those should be sufficient to prove the point darius joe fisher in the following i m mostly playing devil s advocate i m not advocating either position my concern is that people understand that it s possible to see these passages in different ways it s possible to see eternal destruction as just that destruction rev often uses the term second death the most obvious understanding of that would seem to be final extinction the problem is that the nt speaks both of eternal punishment and of second death i e it uses terms that can be understood either way my concern here is not to convince you of one view or the other but to help people understand that there s a wide enough variety of images that it s possible to understand them either way as tom albrecht commented the primary point is to do our best to keep people out of the eternal fire whatever the details to make things more interesting luke implies that the damned don t get resurrected at all presumably they just stay dead yes i m aware that it s possible to understand this passage in a non literal way peter ff is talking about angels and talks about holding them in hell until the final judgement this isn t eternal punishement matthew talks about sending the cursed into eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels the fact that the fire is eternal doesn t mean that people will last in its flames forever particularly interesting is the comment about the fire having been prepared for the devil and his angels rev and talk about the eternal fire as well they say that the beast and the false prophet will be tormented forever in it when talking about people being thrown into it it is referred to as the second death this sounds more like extinction than eternal torment is is possible that the fire has different effects on supernatural entities such as the devil and humans thessalonians similarly what is everlasting destruction this is not necessarily eternal torment this one can clearly be understood either way but i think it s at least possible to think that everlasting is being used to contrast the kind of destruction that can occur in this life with the final destruction that occurs in eternity thessalonians again talks about destruction revelation see comment above revelation is probably the best of the quotes even there it doesn t explicitly say that the people suffer forever it says that the smoke and presumably the fire is eternal and that there is no respite from it but it doesn t say that the people are tormented forever psalm i don t see that it says anything relevant to this issue clh
soc.religion.christian	re prophetic warning to new york city in article apr athos rutgers edu evensont spot colorado edu evenson thomas randall writes in article apr athos rutgers edu reid cs uiuc edu jon reid writes deon strydom f n z fidonet org deon strydom writes which brings me around to asking an open question is the bible a closed book of scripture is it okay for us to go around saying god told me this and jesus told me that wouldn t that imply that god is still pouring out new revelation to us i know that some people will feel that is okay and some will not the concept of a closed canon would certainly cast a shadow on contemporary prophets on the other hand an open canon seems to be indicated sometimes let s get back to basics canon from the latin means a rule if we say that a rule is open then its a rule made to be broken there is an issue also of measurement against a rule thus the words that are spoken need to be compared against the rule canon but not added to the canon is new revelation necessary topical current personal revelation i d say is necessary new revelation for all people for all times is not necessary as we have that in scripture you also seem to confuse canon with scripture scripture may speak of itself being open ie god speaking today it would speak that it is closed in the sense that the canon is unchangeable though the concept of canon is later historically also interesting to note is that some so called prophecies are nothing new but rather an inspired translation of scripture is it right to call that prophecy misleading wouldn t that be more having to do with knowledge i know the gift of knowledge may not be as exciting to talk about but shouldn t we call a horse a horse i agree with the problem of confusion if prophecy is meant to encourage exhort or correct then is an overlap with scripture if prophecy is meant to bring a word of the form the man you live with is not your husband then that is knowledge yet the exact words their are scripture i would expect the difference to be the motive and means for delivery the reading of scripture itself can be a powerful force regards david david morgan university of technology sydney morgan socs uts edu au po box broadway nsw ph broadway sydney fax i paid good money to get my opinions you get them for free v
soc.religion.christian	losing your temper is not a christian trait coming from a long line of hot tempered people i know temper when i see it one of the tell tale signs fruits that give non christians away is when their net replies are acrid angry and sarcastic we in the net village do have a laugh or two when professed born again christians verbally attack people who might otherwise have been won to christianity and had originally joined the discussions because they were spiritually hungry instead of answering questions with sweetness and sincerity these chrisitan net warriors flame the queries you don t need any enemies you already do yourselves the greatest harm again i say foolish foolish foolish
soc.religion.christian	re certainty and arrogance in article apr athos rutgers edu kilroy gboro rowan edu dr nancy s sweetie writes there is no way out of the loop oh contrer mon captitan there is a way certainly it is not by human reason certainly it is not by human experience and yet it is both to paraphrase sartre the particular is absurd unless it has an infinite reference point it is only because of god s own revelation that we can be absolute about a thing your logic comes to fruition in relativism at the core of all well founded belief lies belief that is unfounded ludwig wittgenstein ah now it is clear ludwig was a desciple of russell ludwig s fame is often explained by the fact that he spawned not one but two significant movements in contemporary philosophy both revolve around tractatus logico philosphicus and philosophical investigation many of witt s comments and implicit conclusions suggest ways of going beyond the explicit critique of language he offers according to some of the implicit suggestions of witt s thought ordinary language is an invaluable resource offering a necessary framework for the conduct of daily life however though its formal features remain the same its content does not and it is always capable of being transcended as our experience changes and our understanding is deepened giving us a clearer picture of what we are and what we wish to say on witt s own account there is a dynamic fluidity of language it is for this reason that any critique of language must move from talking about the limits of language to talking about its boundaries where a boundary is understood not as a wall but a threshold vonwrights s comment that witt s sentences have a content that often lies deep beneath the surface of language on the surface witt talks of the insuperable position of ordinary language and the necessity of bringing ourselves to accept it without question at the same time we are faced with witt s own creative uses of language and his concern for bringing about changes in our traditional modes of understanding philosophy then through more perspicacious speech seeks to effect this unity rather than assuming that it is already functioning yes the most brilliant of scientists are unable to offer a foundation for human speech so long as they reject christianity in his tractatus we have the well nigh perfect exhibition of the nature of the impasse of the scientific ideal of exhaustive logical analysis of reality by man perfect language does not exist for fallen man therefore we must get on about our buisness of relating truth via ordinary language this is why john s gospel is so dear to most christians it is so simple in it conveyance of the revealation of god yet so full of unlieing depth of understanding he viewed christ from the ot concept of as a man thinketh so he is john looked at the outward as only an indicator of what was inside that is the consciousness of christ and so must we words are only vehicals of truth he is truth the scriptures are plain in their expounding that there is a truth and that it is knowable there are absolutes and they too are knowable however they are only knowable when he reveals them to the individual there is and we shouldn t shy from this a mysticism to christianity paul in rom says there are men in the world there is the one who does not have the spirit and therefore can not know the things of the spirit the spirit of truth and there is the one who has the spirit and has the capacity to know of the truth but there is the third the one who not only has the spirit but that the spirit has him who can know the deep things of god and reveal them to us other than the spirit and it is only the deep things of god that are absolute and true there is such a thing as true truth and it is real it can be experienced and it is verifiable i disagree with dr nancy s sweetie s conclusion because if it is taken to fruition it leads to relativism which leads to dispair i would know the words which he would answer me and understand what he would say unto me job ff rex suggested easy reading about epistimology he is there and he is not silent by francis schaeffer
soc.religion.christian	phone number of wycliffe translators uk sorry for bothering with a request almost irrelevant to anyone except for me could some kind soul provide me with the phone number of wycliffe center horsley green high wycomb bucks hp xl i want to surprise a friend of mine staying there but i don t have the number thanks a lot in advance gerhard obviously email response is best what do people think of requests like this unless things are very different in the uk and us it should be possible to find this out by calling what we call information the netwide cost of a posting is fairly significant clh
soc.religion.christian	some questions from a new christian hi i am new to this newsgroup and also fairly new to christianity i was raised as a unitarian and have spent the better part of my life as an agnostic but recently i have developed the firm conviction that the christian message is correct and i have accepted jesus into my life i am happy but i realize i am very ignorant about much of the bible and quite possibly about what christians should hold as true this i am trying to rectify by reading the bible of course but it would be helpful to also read a good interpretation commentary on the bible or other relevant aspects of the christian faith one of my questions i would like to ask is can anyone recommend a good reading list of theological works intended for a lay person i have another question i would like to ask i am not yet affiliated with any one congregation aside from matters of taste what criteria should one use in choosing a church i don t really know the difference between the various protestant denominations thanks for reading my post sincerely steve hoskins aside from a commentary you might also want to consider an introduction these are books intended for use in undergraduate bible courses they give historical background discussion of literary styles etc and generally they have good bibligraphies for further reading i typically recommend kee froehlich and young s nt introduction there are also some good one volume commentaries they often have background articles that are helpful probably the best recommendation these days would be harper s bible commentary i think there may be a couple of books with this title this is a fairly recent one like about done in cooperation with the society for biblical criticism if you are committed to inerrancy you will probably prefer something more conservative i don t read a lot of conservative books but a commentary i looked at by donald guthrie looked rather good he has a nt introduction and he s also editor of eerdman s bible commentary clh
soc.religion.christian	re sabbath admissions of someone sent me this faq by e mail and i post my response here i m not enforcing the inclusion limits on this faq because most of our readers probably haven t seen it clh christ warns that anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches otheres to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven matt this faq is so full of error that i must respond to it i hope that whoever maintains will remove from it the partisan theology brothers and sisters being new to the faith and examining the decalogue closely i ve noticed the fourth commandment is pretty specific about keeping the sabbath day it states the th day saturday is the sabbath while most christian religions keep or atleast go to church on sunday what s up this is a frequently asked question every time it arises it causes months of debate so let me see if i can answer you directly basically it s because the law was given to moses as part of a specific covenanent with the jews most of us aren t jews so we aren t part of that covenant there was an argument early in christian history about whether the mosaic laws should apply to gentiles who became christians you can see the account of this debate in acts the main question there was circumcision but keeping the sabbath would be part of it as well the apostles concluded that we need not become jews in order to become christians and therefore that rules such as circumcision did not apply to us the law was known to man before it was revealed on mount sinai rom notes that where no law is there is no transgression not only did sin exist before sinai eden but the sabbath was kept before it was revealed on sinai ex the problem with the first covenant was not the law but the promise which undergirded it god wanted to perform his will in the lives of the people but in their ignorance after years of slavery they promised what ever he says to do we will do that is why the new covenant is based on better promises heb rather than do away with the law god promised to put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts heb including the sabbath in the acts is selective inclusion the sabbath was more important to the jews than circumcision if any attempt had been made to do away with the sabbath the reaction would have been even more strident than is recorded in acts do not confuse the weekly sabbath of the decalogue with the ceremonial sabbaths which could occur at any time of the week and were part of the law ceremonial which was added because of transgression of the moral law gal israel stands for god s people of all time that is why god grafted the gentiles in roma says that the adoption the glory the covenants the giving of the law the service of god and the promises belong to israelites in explanation paul makes it clear that being born into israel is not enough for they are not all israel which are of israel v then in gal he says if ye be christ s then are ye abraham s seed and heirs according to the promise all christians are abraham s seed jews israelites not physically for that is not the criterion but spiritually we are joint heirs with jesus based on the promise god made to all his people the israelites while christians agree that the ot laws do not all apply to us because some of them are part of a specific covenanent with the jews we also expect to see some similarity between the things god expected from the jews and the things he expects from us after all it s the same god however there are several ways of dealing with this these days the most common approach is to separate the ot commandments into moral and ceremonial ceremonial commandments apply only to the jews they are part of the specific mosaic covenant these are thinsg like the kosher laws and circumcision moral laws apply to everyone most of the commands are part of the moral law except for the commandment about the sabbath i believe most people who take this approach would say that the specific requirement to worship on the sabbath is part of the ceremonial law but a general obligation to worship regularly is part of the general moral law thus christians are free to choose the specific time we worship people would probably agree but they are wrong how can the sabbath commandment be ceremonial when it is part of a law which predates the ceremonial laws you are not free to choose your time of worship even if you were why do you follow a day of worship which has its origins in pagan sun worship would you rather give up a day which god blessed sanctified and hallowed in exchange for one which all church leaders agree has not biblical foundation see sabbath admissions in soc religion christian bible study a more radical approach which is generally connected with john calvin and the reformed tradition says that the law as a whole is no longer binding instead we are entirely under grace and our behavior should be guided solely by love portions of the ot law are still useful as guidance but they are not properly speaking legally binding on us in practice most people who take this position do not believe it is safe to leave christians without moral guidannce while we may no longer be under law as sinners it s not safe for us to go into situations with no principles to guide us we re too good at self justification for that to be safe thus christians do have moral guidance from things like jesus teachings paul s advice etc these may not be precisely a law but they serve much the same function as and have largely the same content as the moral law in the previous analysis while calvin would deny that we have a fixed legal responsibility to worship on any specific day he would say that given human weakness the discipline of regular worship is important i do not care what calvin or any theologian says my guide is what god says if being not under the law means we do not have to keep the law why is it that the only section of the law we have trouble with is the sabbath commandment which is the only one god thought was important enough to say remember if you study the word deeply you will note that the message is that we are no longer under the condemnation of the law but freed by the grace of god if a cop pulls me over for speeding then in court i ask for mercy and the judge does not throw the book at me but gives me grace do i walk out of the court saying i can now go on speeding for i am now under grace being under grace i now drive within the speed limit paul adds to it in rom di we then make void the law through faith god forbid yea we establish the law wherefore the law is holy and the commandment holy and just and good rom in both analyses the specific day is not an issue as a matter of tradition we worship on sunday as a memorial of christ s resurrection there s some debate about what acts shows about early christian worship the most common analysis is that is shows jewish christians continuing to go to jewish services on the sabbath but that specifically christian service were not necessarily held then act shows worship on the first day sunday and i cor also implies gatherings on that day there are a few groups that continue to believe christians have to worship on the sabbath saturday the best known are the seventh day adventists and jehovah s witnesses they argue that act is not a regular worship service but a special meeting to see paul off and that i cor doesn t explicitly say it s a regular worship service do you prefer implication to fact a careful study of the acts shows that the meeting was on saturday night and that on sunday morning paul did not go to a worship service but set off on a long journey by foot to assos in icor there is no way you can equate lay by him in store with go to a worship service it s clear that this issue was a contested one in paul s time see rom paul s advice is that we should be very careful about judging each other on issues like this one person sees a specific day as mandated by god while another does not he who observes that specific day does it in honor of the lord he who believes his worship is free of such restrictions also does it in honor of the lord those who believe that the sabbath is still mandated argue that paul is not referring to sabbath worship here note however col which says something similar but briefer it explicitly mentions sabbath wrong these are the sabbath days of the ceremonial law not the sabbath day of the moral law there are some differences among christians about use of the word sabbath originally the term referred to the th day the jewish day of worship many christians now use it to refer to sunday the day of christian worship they do this largely so that they can apply the th or whatever there are a couple of different numbering schemes commandment to it reformed tradition does not do this it distinguishes between the sabbath which is the observance mandated for jews and the lord s day which is the free christian worship the only reference i can find to this in the nt is rev there are also differences about laws regarding this day many christians support blue laws both in secular law and church law setting aside that day and causing people to spend it in worship the more radical anti legal approach sees such regulations as a return to the jewish sabbath which is not appropriate to the free christian worship of the lord s day why would you prefer to twist and turn relying on different arguments which conflict with each other rather than obey a simple request from a god who loved you enough to die for you jesus died because the law could not be changed why bother to die in order to meet the demands of a broken law if all you need to do is change the law penalties for law breaking means the law is immutable that is why it is no sin not to follow the demands of the ceremonial laws it will always be a sin to make false gods to violate god s name to break the sabbath to steal to kill etc except it you disagree but then your opinion has no weight when placed next to the word of god darius it s not clear how much more needs to be said other than the faq i think paul s comments on esteeming one day over another rom is probably all that needs to be said i accept that darius is doing what he does in honor of the lord i just wish he might equally accept that those who esteem all days alike are similarly doing their best to honor the lord however i d like to be clear that i do not think there s unambiguous proof that regular christian worship was on the first day as i indicated there are responses on both of the passages cited the difficulty with both of these passages is that they are actually about something else they both look like they are talking about nnregular christian meetings but neither explicitly says and they gathered every sunday for worship we get various pieces of information but nothing aimed at answering this question act describes christians as participating both in jewish temple worship and in christian communion services in homes obviously the temple worship is on the sabbath acts is an example of christians participating in them unfortunately it doesn t tell us what day christians met in their houses acts despite darius confusion is described by acts as occuring on sunday i see no reason to impose modern definitions of when days start when the biblical text is clear about what was meant the wording implies to me that this was a normal meeting it doesn t say they gathered to see paul off but that when they were gathered for breaking bread paul talked about his upcoming travel but that s just not explicit enough to be really convincing similarly with cor it says that on the first day they should set aside money for paul s collection now if you want to believe that they gathered specially to do this or that they did it in their homes i can t disprove it but the obvious time for a congregation to take an offering would be when they normally gather for worship and if they were expected to do it in their homes there would be no reason to mention a specific day so i think the most obvious reading of this is that on the first day of every week simply means every time they gather for worship i think the reason we have only implications and not clear statements is that the nt authors assumed that their readers knew when christian worship was clh
soc.religion.christian	daily verse how much better to get wisdom than gold to choose understanding rather than silver proverbs
soc.religion.christian	re did he really rise in article apr athos rutgers edu reedr cgsvax claremont edu writes i disagree with your claim that jews were not evangelistic except in the narrow sense of the word jewish proselytism was widespread there are numerous accounts of jewish proselytism both in the new testament and in roman and greek documents of the day i am not so sure of jewish proselytism then but i would like to relate an account of a recent dinner i had with jews a few months ago the dinner was instigated by the aunt of the hostess whom i had met while visiting my wife in galveston last october the dear old aunt now deceased was very proud of her jewish heritage although not especially devout her parents were both murdered in nazi concentration camps in austria during wwii because they were jewish while conversing with her about politics world affairs and religion she remarked that it would be a good idea for me to visit her niece on my return to atlanta within two days of returning to atlanta her niece called to invite me over for dinner with her husband i went not knowing really what to expect other than stimulating conversation and fellowship what i got however was rather unexpected the thrust of the evening s discussion was to condemn the reagan bush policies prohibiting abortion counseling in federally funded family planning clinics prohibiting the sterilization of minorities on welfare here and in puerto rico on the ban on fetal tissue research and against the mexico city policy which denies u s foreign aid to programs overseas that promote abortion the crux of their position was to place the blame for the problems of overpopulation rampant domestic crime african starvation unwed mothers etc on christianity rather on the fall of adam now this is not what i had to come to talk about but every time i tried to bring up the subject of judaism they would condemn jews for jesus and admonish me against converting to judaism because it involves too much study and effort and i did not even raise the prospect nor try to convert them to the truth of christ there was certainly no jewish proselytism going on there and again last november i toured a traditional jewish synagogue and was subjected to a minute harangue against jesus and christianity in general i realize that these are two isolated incidents and that the best supervisor i ever had at work is jewish but from my experience the modern jew is not known for his proselytism boundary no teneis que pensar que yo haya venido a traer la paz a la tierra no he venido a traer la paz sino la guerra mateo vulgata latina
soc.religion.christian	hearing sinners on the question does god hear the prayers of sinners we need to distinguish if we say that he never hears the prayers of any who have sinned we make pointless all prayers by anyone born less than centuries ago but if we consider the prayers of the impenitent sinner of someone who says lord i want you to do this for me but don t expect me to change my way of life that is a different matter even here i would not venture to say that god never grants such petitions just as he sends sun and rain on the evil and on the good however if someone we know well is praying to god in that spirit we might have the responsibility to say remember if god s help is real then so are his commands yours james kiefer
soc.religion.christian	john paraphrased at the end of a recent mon apr post alastair thomson offers the following paraphrase of john god loved the world so much that he gave us his son to die in our place so that we may have eternal life the to die in our place bothers me since it inserts into the verse a doctrine not found in the original moreover i suspect that the poster intends to affirm not merely substitution but forensic or penal substitution i maintain that the scriptures in speaking of the atonement teach a doctrine of substitution but not one of forensic substitution those interested in pursuing the matter are invited to send for my essays on genesis either thru on this question or through with lead in the n th essay can be obtained by sending to listserv asuacad bitnet or to listserv asuvm inre asu edu the message get gen n ruff yours james kiefer any theologian worth his salt can put anything he wants to say in the form of a commentary on the book of genesis walter kaufman
soc.religion.christian	re certainty and arrogance a reply to a post by kilroy gboro rowan edu aka nancy s sweetheart human brains are infested with sin and they can only be trusted in very limited circumstances i would beg to differ with you here the properly formed conscience can be trusted virtually all the time i am not so sure though about something so materialistic as the human brain does that mass of tissue possess anything trustworthy your observation would probably be valid if we were discussing the mind of an animal but the human being is only half animal as it were and half spiritual at the moment he stops speaking and people start interpreting the possibility of error appears did he mean that literally or not we do not have any record that he elaborated on the words was he thinking of tran or con substatiation he didn t say we interpret this passage using our brains we think and reason and draw conclusions but we know that our brains are not perfect our thinking often leads us wrong this is something that most of us have direct experience of now you have hit on the purpose of the church it is by necessity the infallible interpreter of divine revelation without the church christianity would be nothing more than a bunch of little divisive sects unless you are infallible there are very few things you can be certain of to the extent that doctrines rely on fallible human thinking they cannot be certain this argument of yours regarding the certainty of an observation or a conclusion is not necessarily substantiated by experience it reminds me of the theoretical physicist who said that you can never be certain of a measurment because the sensor interferes with the field you are trying to measure now the experimental physicist will reply that although the measurement can never be made with absolute certainty he is able to determine the certainty with which the measurement can be made and this knowledge is often sufficient to render the measurement useful enough to allow evidence of the true condition of the field under observation therefore although our minds are finite and susceptible to error our competence in arriving at inductive insights gives confidence in our ability to distinguish what is true from what is not true even in areas not subject to the experimental method darren f provine kilroy gboro rowan edu if any substantial number of talk religion misc readers read some wittgenstein of the postings would disappear if they understood some wittgenstein would disappear michael l siemon this quote seems a little arrogant don t you think boundary no teneis que pensar que yo haya venido a traer la paz a la tierra no he venido a traer la paz sino la guerra mateo vulgata latina
soc.religion.christian	wbt was re phone number of wycliffe translators uk in article apr geneva rutgers edu mprc troi cc rochester edu m price writes i m concerned about a recent posting about wbt sil i thought they d pretty much been denounced as a right wing organization involved in ideological manipulation and cultural interference including vietnam and south america a commission from mexican academia denounced them in as a covert political and ideological institution used by the u s govt as an instrument of control regulation penetration espionage and repression having met peter kingston of wbt some years back he struck me as an exemplery and dedicated christian whose main concern was with translation of the word of god and the welfare of the people group he was serving wbt literature is concerned mainly with providing scripture in minority languages the sort of criticism leveled at an organisation such as this along the lines of ideological manipulation and cultural interference is probably no more than christianising and education in this wbt will stand alongside the early christian missionaries to parts of africa or those groups who worked among native americans a couple hundred years ago my concern is that this group may be seen as acceptable and even praiseworthy by readers of soc religion christian it s important that christians don t immediately accept every christian organization as automatically above reproach mp i think you need to substantiate these attacks as being a legitimate criticism of priorities other than spreading the gospel among underdeveloped people barney resson many shall run to and fro knowledge shall increase daniel
soc.religion.christian	re an agnostic s question in article apr geneva rutgers edu jdt voodoo ca boeing com jim tomlinson jimt ii writes goodness that is within the power of each of us now the complication is that one of my best friends has become very fundamentalist that would normally be a non issue with me but he hello firstly what do you exactly mean by fundamentalist i will for the time being assume that what you mean is that your friend believes that the bible is god s word to mankind i suspect that what happened to him is what he ll call being born again anyway was that recent if the answer is yes to all the questions above it is quite understandable however imo i ld rather give advice to your friend i think i ve been through something similar to him and one thing i can say is that the basic problem is that each of you are now trying to communicate from different worldviews why he talks about those things is because they are now obvious to him what is obvious to him is not obvious to you secondly why he may be very persuasive is because from his point of view he has been on both sides of the fence this i mean that before he turned fundamentalist you two are agreeable because both of you see things from the same side if suddenly as if a new world of reality has suddenly opened up to him it is like the discovery of let s say a new continent or a new planet to him he s got to tell you because he has seen something much more wonderful than where he was and what he thinks is much better than where you are now you have got to realise that from his point of view he means well to you eventhough he may end up offending you to him it is worth that risk nevertheless it is really up to him to respect where you stand and listen to you as well at this moment it may be difficult because he is either very excited or feel it is too urgent to keep quiet about however he may not realise that he s really putting you off the bible that it is so so my question is how can i convince him that this is a subject better left undiscussed so we can preserve what is in all areas other than religious beliefs a great friendship how do i convince him that i am beyond saving so he won t try thanks for any advice so far i ve only been trying to explain things from his side however i do understand how you feel too because i wasn t a christian for a good part of my life as well i was quite turned off by christians or fundamentalists who were really all out and enthusiastic about their faith they really scared me to tell you the truth unfortunately religious belief is a very personal thing just as your agnosticism is also a very personal thing to you since the christian belief is inevitably at odds with anything non christian religious or otherwise it will be a touchy matter like all friendships it will take both sides to do their part to make it work in this matter maybe you can do your part by telling him nicely that you are not able to dig what he s trying to convince you about that it s beyond you or not your concern for now don t tell him it s nonsense because to him it is reality and that would be a real insult he ll also have to be careful not to insult where you stand too like i said before i wish i could give your friend some advice too i ll admit that i did similarly to some of my friends when i became a christian in some ways i wish i could have done things a little differently however it was difficult then because i was so excited and just blabbered away about what i ve found to me it was too good not to know to some i was crazy and i didn t really care most of the time what they thought you will probably think he s crazy too but god is very real to him as real as you are to him keep that in mind and he thinks he can convince you because since god is so real to him he doesn t see why god can t be real to you too i don t know how helpful this is to you but all the best anyhow this is quite a challenge for you to face by the way personal conviction nobody is beyond saving except the one we call the devil and his hosts regards selbyn liew dept of ee engineering university of melbourne victoria australia email sliew mullian ee mu oz au ph fax
soc.religion.christian	religious wars i don t know if this is the sort of thing you guys like to discuss i guess it falls into the area of apologetics this is a question that seems to pop up now and again in conversations with non christians it usually appears in the following sort of unqualified statement well you know that religion has caused more wars than anything else it bothers me that i cannot seem to find a satisfactory response to this after all if our religion is all about peace and love why have there been so many religious wars personally i am of the view that religion has often been used as an excuse to instigate wars often to disguise national ambitions but i would love to hear what anyone else has to say about this subject thanks in advance andrew j fraser if we re thinking in terms of history the crusades northern ireland yugoslavia come immediately to mind northern ireland yugoslavia name andrew james fraser e mail fraseraj dcs gla ac uk ese h student university of glasgow standard disclaimers i m beginning to suspect that the natural condition of humans is conflict perhaps we should not ask whether a religion or philosophy has been involved in any wars since they all have but whether it has stopped any clh
soc.religion.christian	re hell black sabbath in article apr geneva rutgers edu rexlex fnal fnal gov writes in looking through my files this weekend i ran across some lyrics from various rock groups that have content here are two from black sabbath s master of reality i ll say this much for the music of the s and early s at least they asked questions of significance jethro tull is another to asked and wrote about things that caused one to wonder rex it is interesting that you posted those lyrics because just the other day i was thinking of doing the same i like those lyrics since whenever i am approached by judgemental pharisitical evangelical fundamentalists who throw the bible at me because i have long hair wear a black leather jacket and listen to black sabbath i have something to throw back usually their chins drop and they come up speechless over those not very satanic lyrics it just goes to show that there are more important evils in the world to battle than rock lyrics steven c salaris we re a lot more dangerous than live crew salaris carcs wustl edu and their stupid use of foul language because we have ideas we have a philosophy geoff tate queensryche
soc.religion.christian	re phone number of wycliffe translators uk in apr geneva rutgers edu mserv mozart cc iup edu mail server writes mark mp i m concerned about a recent posting about wbt sil i thought they d pretty much been denounced as a right wing organization involved in ideological manipulation and cultural interference good heavens you mean my good friend wes collins who took his wife and two small children into the jungles of guatemala despite dangers from primitive conditions and armed guerillas so that the indigenous people groups their could have the bible in their native languages the young man who led bible studies in our church who daily demonstrated and declared his deep abiding faith in the lord of love you mean he really was a sneaky imperialistic spy i am sorry you find these charges amusing mark i understand your frustration though it can be kind of scary to find your assumptions challenged some of the specific cultural interference to which i refer includes linguistic manipulation for instance their tzotzil spanish dictionary removed both spanish and tzotzil words for concepts which are threatening to the ruling ideology e g class conquer exploitation repression revolution and described words which can express ideological concepts in examples like boss the boss is good he treats us well and pays us a good wage as some of my students would say not your tone implies that you are unlikely to believe me indeed why should you if you are interested enough to do some further research though and you sound as if you are here are some references for you stoll david fishers of men or founders of empire the wycliffe bible translators in latin america sectas y religiosidad en america latina los angeles times dec latin america press may washington times june happy hunting mp
soc.religion.christian	re losing your temper is not a christian trait hooray i always suspected that i was human too it is the desire to be like christ that often causes christians to be very critical of themselves and other christians we are supposed to grow mature endeavour to be christ like but we are far far far from perfect build up the body of christ don t tear it down and that includes yourself jesus loves me just the way i am today tomorrow and always thank god sheila patterson
soc.religion.christian	re god shaped hole was re accepting jeesus in your heart in article apr athos rutgers edu johnsd rpi edu dan johnson writes those who have an empty spot in the god shaped hole in their hearts must do something to ease the pain i have heard this claim quite a few times does anybody here know who first came up with the god shaped hole business i ve seen this verse used to back up this idea he has also set eternity in the hearts of men ecclesiastes sharon belville
soc.religion.christian	daily verse for whoever does the will of my father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother matthew
soc.religion.christian	re accepting jesus in your heart whitsebd nextwork rose hulman edu bryan whitsell writes religion especially christianity is nothing more than a drug some people use drugs as an escape from reality christians inject themselves with jeezus and live with that high your logic is falty if christianity is a drug and once we die we die then why would you be reluctant to embrase this drug so that while you are alive you enjoy yourself pardon the harshness that follows once i told a cradle christian please do not take advantage of jesus or anybody for the sake of your own selfish realization or search for true faith religion belonging being in fear of hell vanity etc instead of serving yourself we must be serving him until you have comprehended this truth you are only doing things for your own egoism let us not use jesus our religion the bible anything or anybody as a means of escape or getting ecstatic or high we are god s children and we must have a true and authentic relationship with our father with obedience faith hope and love and works the last as the most important beware of our materialistic worldly and selfish motives atheists have this ground against us and i believe they are right about some who call themselves christians marida spreading gods words through actions mother teresa
soc.religion.christian	moody monthly and moody the same are moody monthly and moody the same magazine name change in recent years if not could someone post the address to moody monthly avid david a sjoen my sheep hear my voice and i know them and they gulaksveien follow me and i give them life eternal and they n stavanger shall never perish and no one shall seize them norway out of my hand john e mail david s hsr no rogaland university centre norway
soc.religion.christian	anyone with l abri experiences i am curious if anyone in net land has spent any time at any of the l abri houses throughout the world and what the experience was like how it affected you etc especially interesting would be experiences at the original l abri in switzerland and personal interactions with francis and or edith schaeffer tom milligan
soc.religion.christian	re the arrogance of christians vbv r d eeap cwru edu virgilio dean b velasco jr writes in article apr athos rutgers edu caralv caralv auto trol com carol alvin writes virgilio dean b velasco jr writes carol alvin writes are all truths also absolutes is all of scripture truths and therefore absolutes the answer to both questions is yes an absolute is something that is constant across time culture situations etc true in every instance possible do you agree with this definition yes i do agree with your definition example of women covering their heads and not speaking hold it i said that all of scripture is true however discerning exactly what jesus paul and company were trying to say is not always so easy i don t believe that paul was trying to say that all women should behave that way rather he was trying to say that under the circumstances at the time the women he was speaking to would best avoid volubility and cover their heads this has to do with maintaining a proper witness toward others remember that any number of relativistic statements can be derived from absolutes for instance it is absolutely right for christians to strive for peace however this does not rule out trying to maintain world peace by resorting to violence on occasion yes my opinion i agree that there is truth in scripture there are principles to be learned from it claiming that that truth is absolute though seems to imply a literal reading of the bible if it were absolute truth constant across time culture etc then no interpretation would be necessary it may be that the lessons gleaned from various passages are different from person to person to me that doesn t mean that one person is right and the other is wrong i believe that god transcends our simple minds and that scripture may very well have been crafted with exactly this intent god knows me and knows that my needs are different from yours or anyone else s by claiming that scripture is absolute then at least one person in every disputed interpretation must be wrong i just don t believe that god is that rigid evangelicals are clearly not taking this particular part of scripture to be absolute truth and there are plenty of other examples can you reconcile this sure the bible preaches absolute truths however exactly what those truths are is sometimes a matter of confusion as i said the bible does preach absolute truths sometimes those fundamental principles are crystal clear at least to evangelicals this is where the arrogance comes in to play since these principles are crystal clear to evangelicals maybe the rest of us should just take their word for it maybe it isn t at all crystal clear to me that their fundamental principles are either fundamental or principles i think we ve established that figuring out biblical truth is a matter of human interpretation and therefore error prone yet you can still claim that some of them may be crystal clear maybe to a certain segment of christianity but to all it s very difficult to see how you can claim something which is based on your own interpretation is absolute god revealed his truths to the world through his word it is utterly unavoidable however that some people whill come up with alternate interpretations practically anything can be misinterpreted especially when it comes to matters of right and wrong care to deny that not at all i think it supports my position much more effectively than yours so i think that your position is the bible is absolute truth but as we are prone to error in our interpretation we cannot reliably determine if we have figured out what that truth is did i get that right what s the point of spending all this time claiming and defending absolute truth when we can never know what those truths are and we can never or at least shouldn t act upon them what practical difference can this make carol alvin caralv auto trol com
soc.religion.christian	re atheist s views on christianity was re accepting jeesus in your heart in article apr geneva rutgers edu jasons atlastele com jason smith writes in article apr athos rutgers edu kempmp phoenix oulu fi petri pihko writes this is not true science is a collection of models telling us how not why something happens i cannot see any good reason why the why questions would be bound only to natural things assuming that the supernatural domain exists if supernatural beings exist it is as appropriate to ask why they do so as it is to ask why we exist i beg to disagree with the assertion that science is a collection of models scientific models are a game to play and are only as good as the assumptions and measurements if any that go into them as an example i remember when nuclear winter was the big hype in atmospheric science it wasn t long after sagan s admonitions that one of our boys was adding another level of reality into his model of the nuclear winter scenario at erl in boulder he decided to assume that the atmosphere is more like a two dimensional thing than a one dimensional thing he also assumed that it rained and that the winds blow in the real atmosphere on returning to georgia tech he showed a transparency of atmospheric cooling rates according to the year they were generated by the models there was an unmistakable correlation between the age meaning simplicity of assumptions i e remoteness from reality of each model and the degree of cooling whereas sagan s model showed an approximate degree cooling episode the next model in sophistication showed about half that and so on until we got to our boy s model which showed a degree drop if the war happened in the winter and less than a degree drop if it happened in the summer he predicted that when we would include the presence of oceans chemistry the biosphere and other indicators of reality in the models we would probably see even less cooling thus nuclear winter was reduced to even less than a nuclear autumn one might say to a nuclear fizzle to quote from h s yoder the postulated models have become accepted as the reality instead of the lattice of assumptions they are authoritarianism dominates the field and a very critical analysis of each argument is to be encouraged skepticism of the model approach to earth problems is warranted because many key parameters have not been included this statement surely applies equally well to cosmogony only when convincing observational evidence substantiates the modeled results may one suggest that the model may describe the reality just thought i d clear that up before things really got out of hand boundary no teneis que pensar que yo haya venido a traer la paz a la tierra no he venido a traer la paz sino la guerra mateo vulgata latina
soc.religion.christian	revelations babylon hello all we are doing a bible study at my college on revelations we have been doing pretty good as far as getting some sort of reasonable interpretation we are now on chapters and which talk about the woman on the beast and the fall of babylon i believe the beast is the antichrist some may differ but it seems obvious and the woman represents babylon which stands for rome or the roman catholic church what are some views on this interpretation is the falling babylon in chapter the same babylon in as in chapter the catholic church hate to step on toes thanks jimmy buddenberg internet jbuddenberg vax cns muskingum edu muskingum college reading this imagery as the roman catholic church was certainly common in earlier protestant writers a lot of us find that frankly embarassing now though some of our readers will certainly advocate such a position the problem is that the description makes it look a lot like a political entity it s associated with kings controls world commerce is seated on seven mountains recall that rome is traditionally regarded as built on seven hills if it s a church then it s not the current roman catholic church but a church that has been taken over by the anti christ and merged with the state turning into something rather different than it is now presumably in such a scenario the true catholics are among those who are persecuted given the overall impression that satan is pretending to be an angel of light and the true church is a persecuted remnant i think the most consistent playing out of the image would be that the anti christ would be presiding over a church that claims to be the heir of both the protestant and catholic traditions but that the true spiritual descendants of both peter and the reformers are equally being persecuted clh
soc.religion.christian	doing the work of god as our local religion christian bbs group seems moribund i m posting here on one of the sundays just before easter i went to church the sermon was based on a story in the book of joshua the one about joshua sending out spies to the land he was planning to take what i particularly remember because of having heard part of a cbc radio documentary on bosnia was that the rahab the woman who sheltered the spies said that the people were melting in fear what with having heard that cbc radio documentary and knowing that the muslims in bosnia were losing the war i felt uncomfortable after all the serbs are driving non christians out on the other hand ministers do say that the bible is opposed to the values held by our secular society anyhow members of that church are involved in out of country missionary work also the pastor has talked of spiritual warfare and of bringing christ to the nonreligious people of our area the next sunday the sermon was about joshua where the israelites take jericho and then proceed to massacre everybody there except for rahab who had sheltered the spies with those reports about bosnia in my mind i felt uncomfortable about the minister saying that the massacre the one in joshua was right but what really bothered me was that if i was going to try taking christianity seriously i shouldn t be so troubled about the reports of ethnic cleansing in bosnia certainly my sympathies shouldn t be with the moslims considering that the bosnian muslims are descendants of christians who under turkish rule converted to islam could the serbs be doing god s work the example of god s people setting out on bloody wars of conquest has always been troubling in discussions here i personally question whether they were right even at the time but those who believe they were consider that the wars were justified only because they were specifically commanded by god somehow i don t see the serbs behaving like a group that is led by god in this matter clh
soc.religion.christian	re the arrogance of christians dleonar andy bgsu edu pixie writes unfaithfully yours pixie p s if you do sincerely believe that a god exists why do you follow it blindly do the words question authority mean anything to you i defy any theist to reply dear defiant or unfaithful or pixie i will take up the challenge to reply as i am a theist the foundation for faith in god is reason without which the existence of god could not be proven that his existence can be proven by reason is indisputable cf my short treatise traditional proofs for the existence of god and summa theologica now given that god exists and that his existence can be proven by reason i assert that his commands must be followed blindly although in our fallen condition we must always have some measure of doubt about our faith why because god is the first cause of all things the first mover of matter the independent thing that requires nothing else for its existence the measure of all that is perfect and the essential being who gives order to the universe logos i next assert that god is all good if this is so then that which is contrary to the will of god is evil i e the absence of the good and since god can never contradict himself then by his promise of a savior as early as the protoevangelium of genesis god instructs that because a human adam was first responsible for man s alienation from the source of all good a man would be required to act to restore the friendship thus god became incarnate in the person of the messiah now this messiah claimed that he is the truth john if this claim is true then we are bound by reason to follow him who is truth incarnate you next seem to have a problem with authority have you tried the united states marine corps yet i can tell you first hand that it is an excellent instructor in authority if you have not yet had the privilege i will reply that the authority which is truth incarnate may never be questioned and thus must be followed blindly one may not deny the truth for example when the proverbial apple fell on isaac newton s head he could have denied that it happened but he did not the laws of physics must be obeyed whether a human likes them or not they are true therefore the authority which is truth may not be denied qed boundary no teneis que pensar que yo haya venido a traer la paz a la tierra no he venido a traer la paz sino la guerra mateo vulgata latina
soc.religion.christian	re when are two people married jek cu nih gov writes the essential ingredient of a marriage is mutual commitment two persons are considered to be married if and only if they have bound themselves by mutual promises to live together as husband and wife forsaking all others till death do them part does that imply that people who take marriage vows but aren t sincere are not married jeff johnson jcj tellabs com
soc.religion.christian	re atheist s views on christianity was re accepting jeesus in your heart in article apr athos rutgers edu kempmp phoenix oulu fi petri pihko wrote jason smith jasons atlastele com wrote another answer is that god is the source of all existence this sounds much better but i am tempted to ask does god himself exist then if god is the source of his own existence it can only mean that he has in terms of human time always existed but this is not the same as the source of all existence this argument sounds like god does not exist but meta exists and from his meta existent perspective he created existence i think this is actually a nonsolution a mere twist of words always existing and being the source of the existence of all other beings is not problematic but as you put being the source of all existence including one s own would mean that god came from nothing a concept alien to christianity and theism it is better to understand the classical concepts of necessary and contingent existence god exists necessarily always god created contingent beings this is a coherent solution to existence so long as the concept of god is coherent the best answer i have heard is that human reasoning is incapable of understanding such questions being an atheist myself i do not accept such answers since i do not have any other methods not a very good answer if reason cannot by any means understand something then it is likely that it is a null concept something not in reality ted kalivoda
soc.religion.christian	cell church discussion group i am beginning an e mail discussion group about cell churches if you are a follower of jesus christ and are in a cell church or in a church that is transitioning to a cell church or just interested in learning more about cell churches send me e mail i reserve the right to remove anybody from the group who does not demonstrate a spirit of humility and christlikeness jon reid he is no fool who gives what he cannot keep reid cs uiuc edu to gain what he cannot lose jim elliot
soc.religion.christian	re atheists and hell mark schnitzius writes literal interpreters of the bible will have a problem with this view since the bible talks about the fires of hell and such this is something i ve always found confusing if all your nerve endings die with your physical body why would flame hurt you how can one wail and gnash teeth with no lungs and no teeth one can feel physical pain by having a body which if you know the doctrine of the resurrection of the body is what people will have after the great judgement we look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come nicene constantinopolitan creed you will have both body and soul in hell eventually andy byler
soc.religion.christian	prayers and advice requested on family problem my brother has been alienated from my parents and me since shortly after his marriage to a domineering and insecure woman about twelve years ago we ve kept things on a painfully polite christmas card sort of level for most of this time attempts to see each other end disastrously with his wife throwing a screaming fit and storming out over either our imagined slights to her or his inattention or insensitivity to her i mean this ll happen by the end of a single restaurant meal he seems from what i ve seen to live in a state of quivering anxiety hoping futilely to keep the next storm from breaking he has sacrificed not only meaningful contact with us but also other friends and outside interests now this is his choice and i need to accept it even if i deplore it but it s hard from time to time i ve wanted to drop the pretense that we have a relationship by cutting off contact or trying to have a real if painful relationship by talking honestly with him but i ve always thought why be dramatic and you know he ll only get evasive and then find some excuse to get off the phone just leave the door open in case he ever decides to come back it s been an unsatisfying choice to allow us to go on with the superficial trappings of a relationship but it was the best i could think of now this weekend my mother finally decided that she wasn t going to pretend any more and has cut off relations with them this was the outcome of a phone conversation in which my sister in law screamed and raved at my mother blaming her for everything wrong in their lives and in which my brother evaded temporized claimed the situation was beyond his control and as always expected my mother to make all the allowances and concessions mom said she would not that she would not quietly take abuse any more and that if these were the terms of their relationship she didn t want to talk to or see them any more and she hung up i have never seem my mother lose her temper and i think that this is the first time she s ever hung up on someone mom says she feels as if she s divorced my brother and that it s a relief in some ways to have the break out in the open and done with i have mixed feelings i m proud of mom for sticking up for herself angry at my brother and sister in law for hurting her for being jerks for persisting in such a wretched life which hurts us all and is warping their children angry at my sister in law for being so hateful and angry at my brother for being a coward and having so little respect for himself or us that he s willing to throw us aside and use up all his energy trying to appease an unappeasable emotionally disturbed woman pained for their children who are a mess scared for the future since this marks the time when either things will change and improve or the break will become irrevocable nastily self righteous over this bit of proof that they can t get away with treating us or each other this way and then disgusted with myself for even beginning to gloat over others misery and finally mostly sad sad sad to see my parents hurt and my brother and sister in law trapped in a horrible destructive situation that they can t see a way out of or they can t bear to take whatever paths they do see and i m frustrated because i don t know what if anything to do and doing nothing drives me up the wall i try to pray about my own feelings of rage impotence and vindictiveness and about their situation but i am not free of the desire to do something concrete the desire to do something to define a problem and fix it is one of my besetting vices i m having a terrible time quieting down my internal mental chatter enough to listen for god do you thoughtful and kind people on the net have advice for me is this a time to reach out to my brother to let things be how can i conquer my rage at him enough to be there for him here s the big question i ve been evading throughout this long long post is it ok as a christian and a proponent of faith hope and charity to accept the destruction of a relationship to give up on my own brother or at least to accept that i am powerless to help him and can only wait and see what happens do please answer by e mail or post thank you julie jjmarvin pucc princeton edu
soc.religion.christian	re christian s need for christianity in article apr athos rutgers edu lmh juliet caltech edu henling lawrence m writes in article apr geneva rutgers edu mussack austin ibm com writes for example why does the universe exist at all whether there is a why or not we have to find it this is pascal s wager if there is no why and we spend our lives searching then we have merely wasted our lives which were meaningless anyway if there is a why and we i find this view of christianity to be quite disheartening and sad the idea that life only has meaning or importance if there is a creator does not seem like much of a basis for belief please forgive all the inclusions i suppose they are neccessary to follow the argument my point is that if life has meaning or importance then we should try to find that meaning or importance which is almost a tautology i hope i m not being too patronizing one term for that meaning is creator though that is not obvious from my above argument and the logic is also appalling god must exist because i want him to it s more like i think therefore i am therefore god is i have heard this line of reasoning before and wonder how prevalent it is certainly in modern society many people are convinced life is hopeless or so the pollsters and newscasts state but i don t see where this is a good reason to become religious if you want meaning why not just join a cult such as in waco the leaders will give you the security blanket you desire unfortunately the term religious is ambiguous to me in this context i could say that searching for meaning in life is by definition being religious i could say cult followers by definition have given up on the search if you want meaning why not search for the truth so far my understanding of christianity is congruent with my understanding of truth there have been many before me who have come to conclusions that are worded in ways that make sense to me by no means does that imply that i understand everything chris mussack
soc.religion.christian	re did he really rise in article apr athos rutgers edu ata hfsi hfsi com john ata writes i think you are vastly oversimplifying things we know that early christians suffered totures because of their witness to christ for example act it appears that the jewish rulers of that time had a particular aversion to even hearing jesus s name finally the first apostle s death james of zebedee was certainly not by rome s hand any more than the first martyr stephen the problem was that if one believed in the resurrection then one must believe in jesus as truly being the son of god and what he stood for and preached during his ministry on earth that would have been extremely difficult for some people especially those that had plotted to kill him the basic problem with your argument is your total and complete reliance on the biblical text luke s account is highly suspect i would refer you to the hermeneia commentary on acts moreover luke s account is written at least years after the fact in the meantime everyone he mentions has died and attempts to find actual written sources behind the text have come up with only the we section of the later portion of acts as firmly established moreover pauls account of some of the events in acts as recorded in galatians fail to establish the acts accounts what we need therefore is a reliable text critically appreciated which documents the death of christians for belief in the resurrection i would suggest you look at some greek and roman historians i think you will be disapointed randy
soc.religion.christian	re proof of resurection in article apr geneva rutgers edu jcj tellabs com jcj writes in article apr geneva rutgers edu smayo world std com scott a mayo writes i think christianity goes down in flames if the resurrection is ever disproved didn t paul write that if the resurrection is not true we are the biggest fools of all however whether you believe in christ or not his teachings e g love your brotherman as yourself even if only followed at a secular level could do a great deal to alleviate some of the problems we see today in the world even when i was a rabid atheist i couldn t deny that jeff johnson jcj tellabs com we also cannot fail to note the intense suffering a devastation which has been wrecked on our world because of christians who were certain they were following christ from captialist who have polluted the enviorment in strict obedience to the gensis command to subdue the earth to nazi s who have justly punished the jews for the killing christ as well as the other progroms the innocent women who were burned alive in accordance with you shall not allow a witch to live the moslems who were killed in the crusades the god fearing men destroyed by the inquistion the religious wars in spain france england etc christianity has undoubtedly caused the most suffering and needless loss of life by individuals whose certainity that they were following the instructions therein was unquestionable there is much to grieve randy
soc.religion.christian	question jesus alone oneness dear fellow netters from time to time a term like oneness pentecostals or something similar has occurred in posts to this group i also know that there is a movement called something like jesus alone i believe in the trinity and have no plans to change that but reently i was made aware that there is at least one person within our church who holds the view that there is no trinity in the near future we will discuss this item and i feel that i shall ask you my friends on this group for background information can anybody tell me the basic reasons for holding a belief that there is only jesus and vice versa the foundations for the trinity i shall appreciate both quotes from the bible and historical development thank you all in him bjorn s mail e mail bjorn b larsen bjorn b larsen delab sintef no sintef delab n trondheim tel norway fax
soc.religion.christian	re sex education in article apr athos rutgers edu jkellett netcom com joe kellett writes question for further discussion as they say in the textbooks why don t we teach safe drug use to kids instead of drug abstinence and how come we don t pass out bullet proof vests in school to promote safe gun usage chris mussack
soc.religion.christian	re did he really rise in article apr athos rutgers edu gene gross lambada oit unc edu gene gross writes of course they knew where it was don t forget that jesus was seen by both the jews and the romans as a troublemaker pilate was no fool and didn t need the additional headaches of some fishermen stealing jesus body to make it appear he had arisen since jesus was buried in the grave of a man well know to the sanhedrin to say that they didn t know where he was buried begs the question here again the problem with most of the individuals posting here you take the biblical account as though it were some sort of historical recounting in the modern sense i would refer you to john dominic crossans book the cross that spoke pub harper and row the earliest texts which we have make no reference to an empty tomb nor is an empty tomb necessary for a claim of resurrection modern evangelicals fundamentalists have completely missed what the point of resurrection is here the work of george nickelsburg s work resurrection immortality and eternal life in intertestamental judaism publ cambridge havard univ press is most helpful look at rom paul here has no need of an empty tomb additionally in cor here again there is no mention of an empty tomb he was raised note the passive he appeared no ascension either resurrection could be accomplished without ever disturbing the bones in the grave the whole idea of an empty tomb isn t broached in any of our texts until well after the fall of jerusalem by that time the idea of coming up with a body would have been ludicrious moreover mack has argued convicingly i think that the empty tomb story first appears in mark we have no texts before this which mention the tomb now you say that you think that the disciples stole the body but think on this a moment would you die to maintain something you knew to be a deliberate lie if not then why do you think the disciples would now i m not talking about dying for something you firmly believe to be the truth but unbeknown to you it is a lie many have done this no i m talking about dying by beheading stoning crucifixion etc for something you know to be a lie thus you position with regards to the disciples stealing the body seems rather lightweight to me as for graverobbers why risk the severe penalties for grave robbing over the body of jesus he wasn t buried with great riches so again this is an argument that can be discounted that leaves you back on square one what happened to the body again let me comment that the most plausible non christian scenario and the one typically suggested by sceptics who are knowledgeable about the nt is that the resurrection was a subjective event and the empty tomb stories are a result of accounts growing in the telling clh you are quite right here even the idea of a subjective mystical event as the foundation of the resurrection narratives is currently becoming more untenable see b mack a myth of innocence randy
soc.religion.christian	re latest on branch davidians in article apr geneva rutgers edu conditt tsd arlut utexas edu paul conditt wrote i think it s really sad that so many people put their faith in a mere man even if he did claim to be the son of god and or a prophet it is just as christ said about his return some will say he is in the desert or some will say he is in the wilderness but do not believe them for as lightning flashes east to west so shall the coming of the son of man be my paraphrase i think the verse is somewhere in john jon sig file broken please try later
soc.religion.christian	re accepting jeesus in your heart gsu uxa ecn bgu edu eric molas writes religion especially christianity is nothing more than a drug there is a certain truth to this statement only i would use the word medicine instead of drug with regard to the condition of the human soul christianity is first and foremost a healing medicine it also strengthens and enables one as healing takes hold to grow in new strength and health to live and be and to do that for which god created us some people use drugs as an escape from reality christ s medicine rightly allowed to work brings one nearer to reality and offers the clarity of understanding and the strength of spirit with which to meet it in a healthy human way christians inject themselves with jesus and live with that high small spelling correction added gerry palo compuserve com
soc.religion.christian	re assurance of hell in article apr geneva rutgers edu rexlex fnal fnal gov writes i dreamed that the great judgment morning had dawned and the trumpet had blown i dreamed that the sinners had gathered for judgment before the white throne oh what weeping and wailing as the lost were told of their fate they cried for the rock and the mountains they prayed but their prayers were too late the soul that had put off salvation not tonight i ll get saved by and by no time now to think of religion alas he had found time to die and i saw a great white throne if i believed in the god of the bible i would be very fearful of making this statement doesn t it say those who judge will be judged by the same measure now some have protest by saying that the fear of hell is not good for motivation yet jesus thought it was paul thought it was paul said knowing therefore the terror of the lord we persuade men a god who must motivate through fear is not a god worthy of worship if the god jesus spoke of did indeed exist he would not need hell to convince people to worship him today too much of our evangelism is nothing but soft soap and some of it is nothing but evangelical salesmanship we don t tell people anymore that there s such a thing as sin or that there s such a place as hell it was the myth of hell that made me finally realize that the whole thing was untrue if it hadn t been for hell i would still be a believer today the myth of hell made me realize that if there was a god that he was not the all knowing and all good god he claimed to be why should i take such a being at his word even if there was evidence for his existance join the pythagorean reform church repent of your evil irrational numbers and bean eating ways accept into your heart call the pythagorean reform church bbs at
soc.religion.christian	re did he really rise another issue of importance was the crucification the will of god or a tragic mistake i believe it was a tragic mistake god s will can never be accomplished through the disbelief of man jesus came to this world to build the kingdom of heaven on the earth he desperately wanted the jewish people to accept him as the messiah if the crucification was the will of god how could jesus pray that this cup pass from him was this out of weakness never many men and women have given their lives for their country or other noble causes is jesus less than these no he is not he knew the crucification was not the will of god god s will was that the jewish people accept jesus as the messiah and that the kingdom of heaven be established on the earth with jesus as it s head just like the jewish people expected if this had happened years ago can you imagine what kind of world we would live in today it would be a very different world and that is eactly what god wanted men and women of that age could have been saved by following the living messiah while he was on the earth jesus could have established a sinless lineage that would have continued his reign after his ascension to the spiritual world to live with god now the kingdom of heaven on the earth will have to wait for christ s return but when he returns will he be recognized and will he find faith on this earth isn t it about time for his return it s been almost years mike in article athos rutgers edu oser fermi wustl edu scott oser writes in article apr athos rutgers edu mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington writes the two historic facts that i think the most important are these if jesus didn t rise from the dead then he must have done something else equally impressive in order to create the observed amount of impact nobody ever displayed the dead body of jesus even though both the jewish and the roman authorities would have gained a lot by doing so it would have discredited the christians and the two simplest refutations are these what impact the only record of impact comes from the new testament i have no guarantee that its books are in the least accurate and that the recorded impact actually happened i find it interesting that no other contemporary source records an eclipse an earthquake a temple curtain being torn etc the earliest written claim we have of jesus resurrection is from the pauline epistles none of which were written sooner than years after the supposed event it seems probable that no one displayed the body of jesus because no one knew where it was i personally believe that the most likely explanation was that the body was stolen by disciples or by graverobbers don t bother with the point about the guards it only appears in one gospel and seems like exactly the sort of thing early christians might make up in order to counter the grave robbing charge the new testament does record that jews believed the body had been stolen if there were really guards they could not have effectively made this claim as they did scott o
soc.religion.christian	etymology of easter for src in most languages the feast of the resurrection of our lord is known as the pasch or pasque or some variation thereof a word which comes from the hebrew pesach meaning passover in english german and a few related languages however it is known as easter or some variation thereof and questions have been asked about the origin of this term one explanation is that given by the venerable bede in his de ratione temporum where he derives the word from the name of an anglo saxon goddess of spring called eastre bede is a great scholar and it is natural to take his word for it but he lived and augustine began preaching in kent in the use of the word easter to describe the feast would have been well established before the birth of bede and probably before the birth of anyone he might have discussed the subject with it seems likely that his derivation is just a guess based on his awareness that there had been an anglo saxon goddess of spring bearing that name and the resemblance of the words thus if the said resemblance surely it is not surprising that a personification of spring should have a name similar to the word for dawn is not in istelf convincing the testimony or rather the conjecture by bede does not make it more so assuming that bede was right that would not justify saying that the christian celebration which after all had been going on for some centuries before the name easter was applied to it has pagan roots it would simply mean that the anglo saxons upon becoming christians and beginning to celebrate the resurrection by a festival every spring called it by the name that to them meant simply spring festival however bede s is not the only theory that has been proposed j knoblech in die sprach zeitschrift fuer sprachwissenschaft vienna offers the following derivation among latin speaking christians the week beginning with the feast of the resurrection was known as hebdomada alba white week since the newly baptized christians were accustomed to wear their white baptismal robes throughout that week sometimes the week was referred to simply as albae translaters rendering this into german mistook it for the plural of alba meaning dawn they accordingly rendered it as eostarum which is old high german for dawn this gave rise to the form easter in english yours james kiefer no i m not interested in restarting discussions of the propriety of celebrating easter however this seems like it contains enough interesting information that people might like to see it clh
soc.religion.christian	help hi everyone i m a commited christian that is battling with a problem i know that romans talks about how we are saved by our faith not our deeds yet hebrews and james say that faith without deeds is useless saying you fools do you still think that just believing is enough now if someone is fully believing but there life is totally lead by themselves and not by god according to romans that person is still saved by there faith but then there is the bit which says that god preferes someone who is cold to him i e doesn t know him condemned so a lukewarm christian someone who knows and believes in god but doesn t make any attempt to live by the bible now i am of the opinion that you a saved through faith alone not what you do as taught in romans but how can i square up in my mind the teachings of james in conjunction with the lukewarm christian being spat out can anyone help me this really bothers me in christ will dallas cowboys world champions
soc.religion.christian	re interfaith weddings bill burns was looking for a description of the differnces between the catholic and lutheran churches i d recommend prof william whalen s book separated brethren it s an overview of common us denominations intended for a catholic audience richard aquinas chonak norris mit edu seeking job change sys mgr vax sis cobol programmer unix c c x
soc.religion.christian	paul on weekly collections mark gregory foster writes concerning corinthians the idea was introduced to me once that the reason paul wanted the corinthians to lay aside money for the collection on the first day of the week was that this was when they received their weekly wages but the ancient romans did not observe a seven day week unless a man was working for a jewish employer he is unlikely to have been paid on the first day of a seven day week nor would a jewish employer have kept his wages over the week end see lev dt yours james kiefer
soc.religion.christian	about eliz c prophet rob butera asks about a book called the lost years of jesus by elizabeth clare prophet i do not know the book however miss prophet is the leader of a group the church universal and triumphant derived from the i am group founded by a mr ballard who began his mission in the s i am writing this from memory and may not have all the details straight for an old account check your library for a bnook by marcus bach after an eighteenth century frenchman appeared tapped him on the shoulder and offered him a cup of cosmic essence a major tenet of the movement is that there is a monastery in the mountains of tibet from which a monk descends to the lower altitudes every few centuries to preach and that all major religions have been founded by monks from this monastery typically the ballard family and their successors the prophet family related by marriage if i remember aright base almost all their teachings on messages they have allegedly received by telepathy from tibet i should be surprised if the book you mention has any scholarly basis yours james kiefer
soc.religion.christian	chanting of the passion mike rolfe writes if you know the latin one really beautiful way to hear the passion is its being chanted by three deacons the narrator chants in the middle baritone range jesus chants in the bass and others directly quoted are handled by a high tenor this is done in english same music as the traditional latin in many anglican parishes i should expect that many rcc parishes would do likewise the st matthew passion and st john passion of j s bach are direct offshoots of this tradition yours james kiefer
soc.religion.christian	muslim tithe sexism in genesis according to mdbs ms uky edu muslims tithe of their income perhaps there are some offshoots of islam that impose this on their followers but the standard tithe is of one s net worth once a year the same writer also objects to the bible for teaching that woman was created after man to be his helper etc this is presumably a reference to genesis suppose that that chapter had been written with the sexes reversed we have god creating woman and then saying it is not good that woman should be alone i will make a help meet for her feminists would be outraged the clear implication would be that god had started at the bottom and worked up making first the plants then the fish and birds then the beasts then woman and finally his masterpiece the male chauvinist pig the statement that woman is not capable of functioning by herself that she needs a man to open doors for her would have been seen as a particularly gratuitous insult the fact that the creation of woman from the dust of the ground was given only briefly and in general while the creation of the man was given in six times the number of words would have been cited as evidence of the author s estimate of the relative importance of the sexes the verdict would have been unequivocal no self respecting woman can accept this book as a moral guide or as anything but sexist trash i suggest that moses fearing this reaction altered his original draft and described the creation with adam first and then eve so as to appease miriam and other radical feminists of the day for some reason however it did not work yours james kiefer
soc.religion.christian	re proof of resurection in article apr geneva rutgers edu reedr cgsvax claremont edu writes we also cannot fail to note the intense suffering a devastation which has been wrecked on our world because of christians who were certain they were following christ from captialist in strict obedience to the gensis innocent women who were burned alive in accordance with you shall not allow a witch to live the moslems who were killed in the crusades the god fearing men destroyed by the inquistion the religious wars in spain france england etc christianity has undoubtedly caused the most suffering and needless loss of life by individuals whose certainity that they were following the instructions therein was unquestionable there is much to grieve i agree where in the gospels does jesus advocate any of the actions you mention i couldn t find witch or sorceress in my concordance is there something in the epistles about witches i m still working my way through the gospels jj the reference is ex it s witch in kj sorceress in rsv clh
soc.religion.christian	re help jon ogden jono mac ak rtsg mot com wrote it is a dead and useless faith which has no action behind it actions prove our faith and show the genuineness of it a good example of this is abraham referred to in the james passage hebrews says that abraham was justified by faith but his faith was demonstrated through his works i e he obeyed what god told him to do reading abraham s biography in genesis is very instructive he was a man beset by lack of faith a lot of the time e g lying about sarah being his wife on occasions trying to fulfil god s promise on god s behalf by copulating with hagar yet it seems that god didn t evaluate him on the basis of individual incidents abraham is listed as one of the heroes of faith in hebrews i e when it really came to the crunch god declared abraham as a man of faith he believed god s promises this gives us confidence although real faith demonstrates itself through works god is not going to judge us according to our success failure in performing works not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to his mercy he saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the holy spirit titus amazing grace hallelujah michael davis cs mcd brunel ac uk
soc.religion.christian	iterations of the bible hi i m not a religious guy so dont take this as some kinda flame thanx in advance i want to know why there are so many different versions of the bible there is this version of the bible i have read about and on the front page it says contains inaccurate data and inconsistencies thanx in advance shaz i m not sure quite what you mean by many different versions the primary distinction in versions you see today is in the style of the translation it s pretty unusual to see significant differences in meaning there are a few differences in the underlying text that s because before printing manuscripts were copied by hand slight differences resulted there are enough manuscripts around that scholars can do a pretty good job of recreating the original but there are some uncertainties fortunately they are generally at the level of minor differences in wording there are something like or places where whole sentences are involved but with recent discoveries of older manuscripts i don t think there s much uncertainly about those cases as far as i know no christians believe that the process of copying manuscripts or the process of translating is free of error but i also don t think there s enough uncertainty in establishing the text or translating it that it has much practical effect whether the bible contains inaccurate data and inconsistences is a hot topic of debate here many christians deny it some accept it though most would say that the inaccuracies involved are on details that don t affect the faith but this has nothing to do with there being multiple versions the supposed inconsistences can be found in all the versions i m surprised to find a reference to this on the title page though what version are you talking about i ve been referring to major scholarly translations these are what get referenced in postings here and elsewhere there have certainly been editions that are to be kind less widely accepted this includes everything from reconstructions that combine parallel accounts into single narrations to editions that omit material that the editor objects to for some reason or the other the copyright on the bible has long since expired so there nothing to stop people from making editions that do whatever wierd thing they want however the editions that are widely used are carefully prepared by groups of scholars from a variety of backgrounds with lots of crosschecks i could imagine one of the lesser known editions claiming to have fixed up all inaccurate data and inconsistencies but if so it s not any edition that s widely used the widely used ones leave the text as is weeeeelllllll almost as is it s been alleged that a few translations have fudged a word or two here and there to minimize inconsistencies because translation is not an exact science there are always going to be differences in opinion over which word is best i m afraid clh
soc.religion.christian	re help in article apr geneva rutgers edu lmvec westminster ac uk william hargreaves writes i m a commited christian that is battling with a problem i know that romans talks about how we are saved by our faith not our deeds yet hebrews and james say that faith without deeds is useless saying you fools do you still think that just believing is enough actually i don t think there is any conflict if we really understand what these passages say first what is faith if you study the meaning of the greek and hebrew words so translated i think you will come to the conclusion that the word means a lot more than mere belief faith means both trust and action if you do not put your belief into action it simply cannot qualify as faith i think this is what james means when he says that faith without works is dead and i will show you my faith by my works remember james was writing to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad this probably means he was writing to those who would hear the gospel much later and wouldn t understand the meaning of the original greek indeed i suspect james was writing to us today among others he intended to reach paul on the other hand wrote mostly to the people of the roman empire who generally understood the meaning of the greek another key to why there is no conflict is to look at paul s statements in their context i think you will find that when paul contrasts faith and works it is in the context of comparing the gospel with the law meaning the law of moses this was the great burden of paul s life as the apostle to the gentiles he would go convert a bunch of people then the judizers would come along and try to convince them that they also had to obey the law of moses cf acts chapter in this context paul condemns the idea of being saved by the works of the law saying that we are saved by the blood of jesus and our faith in him i believe that a better translation for today would be that we are saved by faithfulness i think faithfulness today has a meaning closer to what the original writers intended now if someone is fully believing but there life is totally lead by themselves and not by god according to romans that person is still saved by there faith i think you misunderstand romans what paul is really saying is that god prefers a faithful gentile who does not keep kosher to a kosher jew who fails to stay faithful in the more important matters of following the lord and having charity toward his fellows but then there is the bit which says that god preferes someone who is cold to him i e doesn t know him condemned so a lukewarm christian someone who knows and believes in god but doesn t make any attempt to live by the bible in the sense of faith described above you cannot have real faith and be lukewarm if you know god but are lukewarm unfaithful you are worse off than the person who never heard of him remember jesus in the parable of the pearl of great price mat and again in the one on the treasure hidden in the field mat indicates that the price of the kingdom of god is all we have i agree with you in general including the fact that pistis has some of the force of faithful however if you take that too far you can end up with something that paul definitely would not have intended being faithful means following god in all things to say that we are saved by being faithful is very close to saying that we are saved by commiting no sins i assume that s not what you meant i have almost given up on finding a specific verbal formula that completely captures this however i think paul is describing what i d call a basic orientation including aspects such as trust and commitment jesus speaks of it as rebirth which implies a basic change we may still do things that are sinful and may fail to show the new life in christ in many situations where we should but in any christian there had better be the basic change in orientation that jesus calls being born again clh
soc.religion.christian	re assurance of hell in article apr geneva rutgers edu rexlex fnal fnal gov writes if you haven t accepted jesus are your savior you re taking an awful chance as i say to the jehovah witnesses who no longer frequent my door if you are right and i am wrong then i will have lived a good life and will die and cease to exist but if i am right and you are wrong then you will die and suffer eternal damnation i don t mean to make fun at this point but its like dirty harry said you ve got to ask yourself do i feel lucky well do you a man s got to know his limitations don t be one of the whosoever wont s this is a ridiculous argument for being a christian so then you might consider switching from christianity to another religion if you were offered an even more frightening description of another hell how many christians do think there are who view it strictly as an insurance policy not many i know they believe in a message of love and compassion for others a faith based on fear of hell sounds like a dysfunctional relationship with god like a child who cringes in fear of a parent s physical violence many religions have concrete views of heaven and hell with various threats and persuasions regarding who will go where competition over who can envison the worst hell can hardly nurture the idea of loving your neighbor as yourself rex comments criticism welcome ken alvin ucsu colorado edu
soc.religion.christian	re question jesus alone oneness regarding jesus only believers our moderator writes there may be some misunderstanding over terms here i agree quite likely actually i believe jesus only originally was in the context of baptism these are folks who believe that baptism should be done with a formula mentioning only jesus rather than father son and holy spirit this may have doctrinal implications but as far as i know it does not mean that these folks deny the existence or divinity of the father i m not the right one to describe this theology and in fact i think there may be several including what would classically be called monophysite or arian two rather different views as well as some who have beliefs that are probably consistent with trinitarian standards but who won t use trinitarian language because they misunderstand it or simply because it is not biblical clh not biblical what then can they make of the end of matthew and jesus came and said to them all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me go therefore and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit and teaching them to obey everything that i have commanded to you and remember i am with you always to the end of the age other ancient authorities add amen nrsv the notes give no sense that this is emended do other texts contradict this regarding baptism or is a misunderstanding of the trinity the most likely explanation after all but maybe i simply misunderstand their views is anyone else out there forced to read this group with both a good bible and an unabridged dictionary christianity really is an education in itself david r tucker kg s drt athena mit edu arrgggghhhh when i talked about people who rejected trinitarian language as unbiblical i was speaking of trinitarian theology things like one essense and three persons obviously the three fold baptismal formula is biblical as you point out i normally use the term three fold in referring to mat while it is certainly consistent with belief in the trinity the trinity is a doctrine whose full formulation occurred in the th and th cent s it s unlikely that mat had in mind the fully developed trinitarian doctrine indeed the three fold baptismal formula is used by some groups that do not believe in the trinity the disagreement over baptismal formulae occurs because of passages such as acts which command baptism in the name of jesus there are a couple of other passages in acts as well this leaves us with sort of a problem we re commanded in mat to baptize in the name of the father the son and the holy spirit and in acts to baptize in the name of jesus jesus only groups baptize in the name of jesus they consider this consistent with mat because they say that jesus is the name of the father the son and the holy spirit i m not the right one to ask to explain what this means i will simply say that it does not appear to be normal trinitarian theology it is also an odd way of dealing with the idiomatic phrase in the name of those who use the three fold formula don t seem to have a standard answer to the passages talking about baptizing in the name of jesus i suspect that the most common explanation is to say that in the name of need not be a verbal formula to say that you baptize in the name of jesus may simply mean that you are doing baptism under jesus authority in the st cent context it contrasts christian baptism with the baptism of john or other jewish baptism of course there s a certain parallelism between these passages that suggests that we could just as well say that mat doesn t require the specific three fold formula to be used in baptism but simply characterizes baptism done by those who follow the father son and holy spirit one might well suspect that in the early church more than one baptismal formula was used so long as we consider following jesus to be the same as following the father son and holy spirit no great damage would be done by such a difference this does not mean that i think we should go back to using both formulae baptism is one of the few things that almost all christian groups now recognize mutually so i do not think doing something to upset that would be in the interests of the gospel this is reinforced by the fact that those groups that actually use in the name of jesus now do seem to have in mind a difference in doctrine but as i ve said before i m not the one to explain what their doctrine is clh
soc.religion.christian	daily verse and the lord s servant must not quarrel instead he must be kind to everyone able to teach not resentful those who oppose him he must gently instruct in the hope that god will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil who has taken them captive to do his will iitimothy
soc.religion.christian	re a question that has bee bothering me in article apr athos rutgers edu wquinnan sdcc ucsd edu malcusco writes in article apr athos rutgers edu atterlep vela acs oakland edu cardinal ximenez writes my problem with science is that often it allows us to assume we know what is best for ourselves god endowed us with the ability to produce life through sexual relations you assume this because you believe in a designing creator and you observe our ability to procreate for example but he did not make that availible to everyone does that mean that if science can over ride god s decision through alterations that god wills for us to have the power to decide who should and should not be able to have children but then you observe our ability to modify fertility through intelligence experiment and draw no similar conclusions about god designing us for scientific inquiry the use of the technology that it produces how is it that one ability is obviously from god and the other not i cannot draw a solid line regarding where i would approve of scientific study and where i would not but i will say this before one experiments with the universe to find out all its secrets one should ask why they want this knowledge i want to know the truth and hold the truth as the most basic of all ethical values because correct moral judgement relies on knowing the truth not vice versa moralities that assert that assent to a belief is a moral choice and not compelled by evidence inevitably cut off the limb they sit upon falsification of evidence conscious and unconscious follows corrupting both the intellect and the heart i will say that each person should pray for guidance when trying to unravel the mysteries of the universe and should cease their unravelling if they have reason to believe their search is displeasing to god malcusco if there is a god he has nothing to fear from truth as to imaginary gods and there followers be afraid be very afraid max
soc.religion.christian	re when are two people married in god s eyes i would like to get your opinions on this when exactly does an engaged couple become married in god s eyes i m waiting for an rc to speak up nobody has so i will those with bibles on hand can give the exact chapter verse at the time jesus told peter that he was the rock he said whatever you hold true on earth is held true in heaven and whatever you don t hold true won t be true in heaven therefore with respect to marriage the ceremony has to be done by an rc priest no big parties required just the priest the couple and witnesses divorce is not allowed but anullments are granted upon approval by either the bishop or the pope not sure if the pope delegates this function mark ashley disclaimer my opinions not harris marka gcx ssd csd harris com the lost los angelino
soc.religion.christian	re when are two people married in god s eyes in article apr geneva rutgers edu rjs po cwru edu richard j szanto writes in a previous article randerso acad sahs uth tmc edu robert anderson says i would like to get your opinions on this when exactly does an engaged couple become married in god s eyes some say that if the two have publically announced their plans to marry have made their vows to god and are unswervingly committed to one another i realize this is a subjective qualifier they are married joined in god s sight i have discussed this with my girlfriend often i consider myself married though legally i am not neither of us have been with other people sexually although we have been with each other we did not have sexual relations until we decided to marry eventually for financial and distance reasons we will not be legally married for another year and a half until then i consider myself married for life in god s eyes i have faith that we have a strong relationship and have had for over years and will be full of joy when we marry in a church first however we must find a church we will be living in a new area when we marry and will need to find a new church community anyway i feel that if two people commit to marriage before god they are married and are bound by that commitment rick szanto rick has nailed the problem down pretty well as i can find no scripture have i missed it that details when you are married i have to make some assumptions based on the principles of scripture it seems to me that it takes parties to make a marriage husband to be wife to be and god if you promise before each other and god that you will convenant together to be married then you are imo so why do we have the ceremonial part that seems to be there for connectedness in the body of christ my brothers and sisters ought to be involved so that there can be some accountability on both our parts that s part of the concept from hebrews about not forsaking the assembling of yourselves together as is the custom of some we need each other because lone ranger christians and lone ranger marriages smack of a self sufficiency that the i don t see in the nt does anyone see the paul simon i am a rock i am an island model anywhere in christianity song lyrics show your age further since marriage is a legal matter institution in the usa and many other places and such laws do not specifically go crosswise to the clear teachings of scripture we ought to obey them to avoid even the appearance of evil i thess so this would imply at least a civil ceremony before marriage but keep in mind we are at least doing all of this for the conscience of others because back to the beginning you are married when you and your intended promise each other and god to be in convenant imo what ch all think bobby akgua rjb in some states the kind of commitment described in richard szanto s posting can create a common law marriage indeed his posting itself might go a long way towards establishing that a marriage exists should the issue ever end up in court he might want to consult a lawyer who is familiar with common law marriage in his state clh
soc.religion.christian	re serbian genocide work of god on apr in serbian genocide work of god user james sledd ssdc sas upe writes are the governments of the united states and europe not moving to end the ethnic cleansing by the serbs because the targets are muslims bingo that and there s no oil there on apr in serbian genocide work of god user james sledd ssdc sas upe writes are the serbs doing the work of god hmm if this is the work of god then i m doubly glad that i don t worship him david hunt graduate slave my mind is my own towards both a mechanical engineering so are my ideas opinions palestinian and carnegie mellon university use golden rule v jewish homeland t h e r e i s n o g o d t h e r e i s n o g o d email bluelobster cmu edu working towards my piled higher and deeper it will be a great day when scientists and engineers have all the r d money they need and religions have to beg for money to pay the priest
soc.religion.christian	re the arrogance of christians dean and i write lots and lots about absolute truth and arrogance vbv r d eeap cwru edu virgilio dean b velasco jr writes i strongly suspect that we are reaching an impasse here which is why i deign from commenting much further i agree that we ll probably never agree and i m starting to feel frustrated and i m tired of having my conversations with my husband dominated by this topic just kidding i do have to say though that participating in this discussion has been a good learning experience for me my views on this topic have evolved and clarified through this and i suspect that we may not disagree as much as we think i admit that i m strongly prejudiced against evangelical christianity and i may not always be rational in my reactions to it i grew up in ec and went to an ec college it was definitely the wrong place for me and i react strongly to any implication that ec or conservative christianity has any sort of stronghold on true christianity i shudder when i remember the condescending attitude i had about other christians who didn t adhere to the ec model i have come to see that my real objection to this whole notion of absolute truth is the actions i have seen it lead to i have had some very bad experiences with evangelical christians claiming to know the truth and judging me or others based on their belief that they have the answers knowing the truth doesn t seem to leave a whole lot of room for others opinions i can accept your belief in absolute truth as long as you don t try to use that belief to try to force others to comply with it and you are very careful that you don t hurt others with it love your neighbor seems to go totally out the window when one knows the truth and believes that everyone should be living by that truth other people have convictions about the truth every bit as strong and sincere as yours based on careful searching prayer and their relationship with god don t dismiss them because god didn t lead them to the same conclusions as yours this is not directed personally at you dean carol alvin caralv auto trol com
soc.religion.christian	re being right about messiahs in article geneva rutgers edu desiree bradley mindlink bc ca desiree bradley writes i must have missed the postings about waco david koresh and the second coming how does one tell if a second coming is the real thing unless the person claiming to be it is obviously insane one rule of thumb is that if a person is making the claim they are wrong i was just reading john this morning i think that is the right chapter anyway it is close and i don t have a bible at work to check with and in it jesus is talking to his disciples about his impending death and he says that he will be going away and then later he will be with them he said something along the lines of i will be in you and you will be in me again i cannot provide the exact quote or citation anyway my understanding of this is that the second coming will not be an outward event it is an inward event christ will come to live in our hearts and we will live in him if you look for a person you will be deceived it seems to me that the jews had been looking for a messiah that would be a political or military leader and so didn t recognize jesus when he came jesus tried to show that his kingdom was not of this earth a lot of what i have seen written about the second coming seems to based on an expectation of christ coming back and finally taking over the world and running it the way it should be it sounds a lot like what the jews were looking for the first coming wasn t like that and i see no reason for the second coming to be like that either oh and by the way i don t expect it to happen once there is no one second coming there are a lot of little ones every time christ comes into someones heart christ has come again peace will william taber will taber dg com any opinions expressed data general corp will futon webo dg com are mine alone and may westboro mass change without notice when all your dreams are laid to rest you can get what s second best but it s hard to get enough david wilcox
soc.religion.christian	was jesus black the people who post to this particular newsgroup are either too cowardly too arrogant or too apathetic to discuss this issue since i have yet to see any discussion grace my computer screen while it holds particular interest to the african american community everyone has something to gain from discussing it as any knowledgable person should know christianity has been used in this country to tighten the spiritual emotional mental hold slavery placed on the minds souls hearts of african americans this was most effectively done by the display of white icons of jesus in slave churches to encourage the godly superiority of slaveowners it wasn t enough that the slaveowner was your provider but he was also your god to be looked upon with unconditional love loyalty and to be worshipped with great pride but how culturally biblically accurate are these icons pictures statues of a black jesus have been found in european countries as that of a black madonna but what about biblical physical descriptions of jesus his hair being compared to that of wool his feet to that of brass and think about the area of the world where all biblical actions took place i welcome all intelligent commentary on this important topic flamers need not reply sherlette p s i expect at least this type of response it doesn t matter what color his skin was his actions what he did for mankind are what counts this is true i am not questioning this but he walked the earth for decades as a human this part of his existence intrigues me and as for saying that it doesn t matter to a member of a physically emancipated people who is still struggling for mental emancipation believe me it matters the general attack on the members of this group seems unjustified there has been discussion of this issue in the past we can t discuss everything at once so the fact that some specific thing hasn t been discussed recently shouldn t be taken as a sign of general cowardice arrogance or apathy in past discussions no one has been outraged by suggestions that jesus could be black and it has been suggested by a few scholars but the concensus is that he was most likely semitic as you probably know there is a tradition that portrayals of jesus in art tends to show him as one of the people thus you wouldn t be surprised to find african art showing him as black and oriental art showing him as oriental there are good reasons relating to christian devotion to think of him in such a way it s also good now and then to have that image challenged and to think of jesus as being a member of xxx where xxx is the group you least respect clh
soc.religion.christian	re accepting jeesus in your heart dan johnson asked for evidence that the most effective abuse recovery programs involve meeting people s spiritual needs i responded in step programs like alcoholics anonymous one of the steps involves acknowleding a higher power aa and other step abuse recovery programs are acknowledged as being among the most effective dan johnson clarified what i was asking is this please show me that the most effective substance absure recovery programs involve meetinsg peoples spiritual needs rather than merely attempting to fill peoples spiritual needs as percieved by the people a a s r c regulars or snoopy you are asking me to provide objective proof for the existence of god i never claimed to be able to do this in fact i do not believe that it is possible to do so i consider the existence of god to be a premise or assumption that underlies my philosophy of life it comes down to a matter of faith if i weren t a christian i would be an agnostic but i have sufficient subjective evidence to justify and sustain my relationship with god again this is a matter of premises and assumptions i assume that there is more to life the universe and everything than materialism ie that spirituality exists this assumption answers the question about why i have apparent spiritual needs i find this assumption consistent with my subsequent observat ions i then find that god fills these spiritual needs but i cannot objectively prove the difference between apparent filling of imagined spiritual needs and real filling of real spiritual needs nor can i prove to another person that they have spiritual needs seanna watson bell northern research pray that at the end of living seanna bnr ca ottawa ontario canada of philosophies and creeds god will find his people busy opinion what opinions oh these opinions planting trees and sowing seeds no they re not bnr s they re mine i knew i d left them somewhere fred kaan
soc.religion.christian	re hell black sabbath in article apr geneva rutgers edu jprzybyl skidmore edu jennifer przybylinski writes i may be wrong but wasn t jeff fenholt part of black sabbath yes he was he also played jesus in jesus christ superstar before he became a christian he played in black sabbath right after he first got saved but then left it link hudson
soc.religion.christian	could anyone answer this question i ve heard it said that the accounts we have of christs life and ministry in the gospels were actually written many years after the event about years or so is this correct if so why the big time delay i know all scripture is inspired of god so the time of writing is i suppose un important but i still can t help be curious ivan thomas barr contact me at u athmail causeway qub ac uk the gospels aren t dated so we can only guess luke s prolog is about the only thing we have from the author describing his process the prolog sounds like luke is from the next generation and had to do some investigating there are traditions passed down verbally that say a few things about the composition of the gospels there are debates about how reliable these traditions are they certainly don t have the status of scripture yet scholars tend to take some of them seriously one suggests that mark was based on peter s sermons and was written to preserve them when peter had died or way about to die one tradition about matthew suggests that a collection of jesus words may have been made earlier than the current gospels in the ancient world it was much more common to rely on verbal transmission of information i think many people would have preferred to hear about jesus directly from someone who had known him and maybe even from someone who studied directly under such a person rather than from a book thus i suspect that the gospels are largely from a period when these people were beginning to die scholars generally do think there was some written material earlier which was probably used as sources for the existing gospels establishing the dates is a complex and technical business i have to confess that i m not sure how much reliance i d put on the methods used but it s common to think that mark was written first around ad and that all of the gospels were written by the end of the century a few people vary this by a decade or so one way or the other clh
soc.religion.christian	copt net newsletter this is to let you know that the fourth issue of the copt net newsletter has been issued the highlights of this issue include easter greating christ is risen truly he is risen the holy family in egypt part anba abraam the friend of the poor part a review of the coptic encyclopedia a new dictionary of the coptic language this newsletter has been prepared by members of copt net a forum where news activities and services of the coptic orthodox churches and coptic communities outside egypt are coordinated and exchanged if you want your name to be included in the mailing list or have any questions please contact nabil ayoub at ayoub erctitan me wisc edu copt net editorial board
soc.religion.christian	re did he really rise in article geneva rutgers edu parkin eng sun com michael parkin writes another issue of importance was the crucification the will of god or a tragic mistake i believe it was a tragic mistake god s will can never be accomplished through the disbelief of man i finished reading a very good book the will of god weatherhead this was very helpful to me in applying thought to the subject of the will of god weatherhead broke the will of god into three distinct parts intentional will circumstancial will and ultimate will he weatherhead also refuted the last statement above by michael parkin above quite nicely summarizing despite the failures of humankind god s ultimate will is never to be defeated god s intentions may be interfered with even temporarily defeated by the will of humankind brought down by circumstance his ultimate will the reconcilication of all humankind will never be stopped time after time weatherhead used the cross as the best description of this process at work his points paraphrased were god s intentional will was for jesus the christ to live out a full life and perform the work of the living god the failures sins and deviousness of humankind frustrated god s intent for his son despite the circumstance god s ultimate will was revealed in the cross as jesus willingly not my will lord but yours died for the redemption of all humankind the cross was utterly triumphant overcoming even the most cruel of circumstances this world to build the kingdom of heaven on the earth he desperately wanted the jewish people to accept him as the messiah if the crucification was the will of god how could jesus pray that this cup pass from him was this out of weakness never many men and women have given their lives for their country or other noble causes is jesus less than these no he is not he knew the crucification was not the will of god it was not the intentional will of god it was the circumstancial will thus enabling the victory of the ultimate will god s will was that the jewish people accept jesus as the messiah and that the kingdom of heaven be established on the earth with jesus as it s head right intentional will just like the jewish people expected if this had happened years ago can you imagine what kind of world we would live in today it would be a very different world and that is eactly what god wanted men and women of that age could have been saved by following the living messiah while he was on the earth jesus could have established a sinless lineage that would have continued his reign after his ascension to the spiritual world to live with god now the kingdom of heaven on the earth will have to wait for christ s return but when he returns will he be recognized and will he find faith on this earth isn t it about time for his return it s been almost years we know neither the time nor the place he will return as a thief in the night peace rob legal mumbo jumbo follows this mail post only reflects the opinions of the poster author and in no manner reflects any corporate policy statement opinion or other expression by network systems corporation
soc.religion.christian	re help in article apr geneva rutgers edu lmvec westminster ac uk william hargreaves writes hi everyone i m a commited christian that is battling with a problem i know that romans talks about how we are saved by our faith not our deeds yet hebrews and james say that faith without deeds is useless saying you fools do you still think that just believing is enough some deleted now i am of the opinion that you a saved through faith alone not what you do as taught in romans but how can i square up in my mind the teachings of james in conjunction with the lukewarm christian being spat out can anyone help me this really bothers me dear will i ve never replied on this thing before so i hope it gets thru ok i had a few thoughts faith on its own if not accompanied by action is dead james faith is both belief and action if i say that i am a great swimmer but i never go swimming am i really a swimmer and will people believe that i am likewise if i say i m a christian but i never talk to god am i really a christian my faith is demonstrated by my action the fact that we talk to god proves we have faith satan believes in god but does not follow him in a similar vein i have recently been challenged by john v says we know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands i find this verse quite encouraging as it could imply that if we have come to know him then we ll obey his commands cos he lives within us and we cannot help but obey what he says i tend to feel that as we daily submit ourself to god he will keep changing us into the likeness of jesus and his fruit and works will be automatically produced in our lives hope this helps james holland rcfec westminster ac uk
soc.religion.christian	re hell black sabbath i may be wrong but wasn t jeff fenholt part of black sabbath he s a major brother in christ now he totally changed his life around and he and his wife go on tours singing witnessing and spreading the gospel for christ i may be wrong about black sabbath but i know he was in a similar band if it wasn t that particular group yes but jeff also speaks out against listening to bands like black sabbath he says they re into all sorts of satanic stuff i don t know mark dotsonm dmapub dma org
soc.religion.christian	re am i going to hell in article apr geneva rutgers edu tbrent ecn purdue edu timothy j brent writes i have stated before that i do not consider myself an atheist but definitely do not believe in the christian god the recent discussion about atheists and hell combined with a post to another group to the effect of you will all go to hell has me interested in the consensus as to how a god might judge men as a catholic i was told that a jew buddhist etc might go to heaven but obviously some people do not believe this even more see atheists and pagans i assume i would be lumped into this category to be hellbound i know you believe only god can judge and i do not ask you to just for your opinions excellent question timothy i hpoe the answers you get will be satisfactory as we can not understand the mind of god but to attempt to answer you clearly god of the bible has given us humans relativly little about how he intends to judge mankind the first test is those who have beleived that jesus christ is the son of god and that his death and resurrection was sufficent to serve justice for all the acts we commit that are wrong in the eyes of god the bible calls this sin for those who die before the end of the world have already died it is more complicated to explain without lapsing in to cliche god must judge people on the baasis of their works in this world however there is no plus and minus system for god he has declared that he can not tolerate spiritual imperfection thus he can only based your worthiness to live with him on the wrong in your life good people yes even christians are going to constantly sin before god the christian hoever thanks god that christ has given his life for his sin s penalty the proscribed punishment for sin is death just as the proscribed punishment for robbery is time in jail god then cannot ask for anything but punishement for those sins he does not want to condem the bible says in john that god did not send his son in to the word to condem it but that through him it might be saved when i realize that i have sinned and i do with painful regularity i must approach god and ask him to not hold thew sin against me i have that right and privlige only because of christ as for jews they are promised that they must believe on the messiah who would come and dis come in jesus of nazereth muslims i fear have been given a lie from the fater of lies satan they need christ as do us all for those who don t have that right in the view of the bible they stand olone in their defense are you going to hell i can not answer that for you i can only say that perhaps it is eaiser to ask and answer how can i not go to hell that step is much more rewarding stan toney stoney oyster smcm edu my opinions are my own you may borrow them p s stay in touch and keep asking questions not just to us but to god as well he listens too
soc.religion.christian	re when are two people married in god s eyes to recapitulate a bit the essence of marriage is two people s commitment to each other if two people claim to be married in their hearts but are not willing to have the marriage recognized by church and state that s prima facie evidence that the commitment isn t really there there are obvious situations in which christian marriage is possible without a civil or church wedding if you re stranded on a desert island or if your state forbids the marriage for an unjust reason e g laws against interracial marriage the legal concept of common law marriage is meant to ensure that the state will recognize marriages that did not start out with the usual ceremony and record keeping pastorally i m concerned that people should not use being married in god s eyes as an excuse for living together without a formal wedding one has a duty to have one s marriage properly recorded and witnessed but there are also people who have been through a wedding ceremony without making a genuine commitment and therefore are not married in god s eyes right michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi i think the last statement is dangerous i believe as long as someone has formally undertaken the responsibility of marriage they have a moral obligation even if their intention was not right other people are involved in the marriage covenant if they believed in good faith that a marriage occurred then i think there are obligations created to them of course there are situations where intent can cause a marriage not to exist the classic example is when it s done as part of a play but these are exceptions and should be clear to all parties clh
soc.religion.christian	re assurance of hell in a previous article lfoard hopper virginia edu lawrence c foard writes did you know that jesus talked more about hell than he did about heaven thank you for this info what respect i had for the man now has been diminished tenfold i promise never again to say how wise or loving this man was i have a hard time understanding this attitude if the gospels are the least bit accurate then there can be little doubt that jesus belived hell was a reality as a teacher what would be the wise and loving thing to do if people in your audience were headed there to warn them it would however be rather cruel and or sadistic to believe that such a place exists and then remain quiet about it the only scenario i can envision in which dimished respect would be justified is if jesus knew there was no such place as hell and spoke about it anyway just to scare people unless you would accuse jesus of this i would encourage you to reconsider what a loving response is when you perceive someone to be in danger dave weaver he is no fool who gives what weaver chdasic sps mot com he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose jim elliot
soc.religion.christian	re serbian genocide work of god james sledd jsledd ssdc sas upenn edu wrote are the serbs doing the work of god hmm i ve been wondering if anyone would ever ask the question are the governments of the united states and europe not moving to end the ethnic cleansing by the serbs because the targets are muslims can does god use those who are not following him to accomplish tasks for him esp those tasks that are punative james sledd no cute sig but i m working on it are you suggesting that god supports genocide perhaps the germans were punishing jews on god s behalf any god who works that way is indescribably evil and unworthy of my worship or faith revdak netcom com
soc.religion.christian	re atheists and hell we look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come nicene constantinopolitan creed i always took the resurrection in this statement to mean the resurrection of the soul but i guess resurrection does strictly mean the raising of the physical body i have some questions on this point the next time you go to church you can check the better creed that is the apostles creed it says the resurrection of the body should have learned that on the first go around but what s a body without a little bit a soul i always thought that christians believe the descent into hell was pretty much immediate and that there are people burning in hell right now where will my soul which by the way i don t believe in exist until that time at the risk of offending everybody i will interject the th century point of view christ descended immediately into the bosom of abraham to set captives captive he preached to the saved for three days before drawing them with him back to this earth i m no expert on this part but matthew says about the death of jesus tombs were opened and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised and coming forth from the tombs after his resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many nab regarding the hell of the damned of which you speak christ did not see it ps acts although it saw him cf is concerning the abodes of the dead i don t want to subject my brethren to further anguish so i will direct you to contact me through e mail if you are genuinely concerned will the new body i will have be created out of the same atoms that my body now is made of or will it be built from scratch your new body might be something like adam s before his fateful encounter with the just one acts cr trans vulgate filled with infused knowledge absent of concupiscence and immortal it would probably be a little glorified too since i will have a physical body i assume it will need a physical place to exist in where is this hell in the center of the earth do you think we could find it if we dig i wouldn t recommend it it s really hot down at the center of the earth you know the normal geothermal gradient and all that regards boundary the catechist no teneis que pensar que yo haya venido a traer la paz a la tierra no he venido a traer la paz sino la guerra mateo vulgata latina
soc.religion.christian	re the arrogance of christians in article apr athos rutgers edu aa freenet carleton ca mark baker writes i am asking you to believe in things not visible i don t know if this is believeing blindly or not i m not sure how blindness comes into it i do not deny reason indeed i insist upon it but reason only draws conclusions from evidence if you decide in advance that your reason will act only on the evidence of the five physical senses then you cut reason off from any possibility of reaching a conclusion outside the physical sphere beyond the rather provocative if inconclusive conclusion that the physical sphere is not self explanatory so your are saying to rely on our feelings and experiences since this is the only other source of information left to us how can you then convince somebody that your feelings and experiences are the correct ones then if you can t show somebody visible and measurable effects if my experiences say that there exists no god and yours says there does where does that leave us since we are only going on experiences then both of us are correct within our own personal realities furthermore the trouble with feelings and experiences is that they can lead you astray as the tragic outcome of waco illustrates i am sure that many of koresh s followers really believed in him but i think that you and i will agree that they were being misled finally how on earth do you come to the conclusion that the physical sphere is not self explanatory when you only rely on the five senses christians claim that they have received a different kind of evidence which they call faith and which is a gift of god that is this evidence is the evidence of a thing which chooses to reveal or hide itself the evidence of the senses cannot tell you is such a ting exists reasoning on the evidence of the senses won t help either but christians do reason of the evidence of faith and do claim that this evidence is wholly consistent with the evidence of the other senses and indeed that the evidence of these other senses is part of god s revelation of himself to us you must be using a definition of evidence that i am not familiar with to me evidence is something you can show others unambiguously that what you are saying is true however i agree with you that belief in a diety is a matter of faith it is not something you can share around others must experience it independantly unfortunately as i have explained above this puts belief down to a matter of experience my impression is that christians do not have the monopoly on reason evidence and faith as far as any of these things can go in a previous article phs d vaxc cc monash edu au says you are right that science and reason cannot prove anything however if we do not use them we can only then believe on faith alone and since we can only use faith why is one picture of god e g hinduism any less valid than another e g christianity faith as i have said is not opposed to reason it is simply a new source of evidence on which reason may operate it is clear that human beings have many systems for explaining the evidence of the physical senses and similarly there are many systems for explaining the evidence provided by faith religious believers in general and christians in particular use reason to help sift through the evidence to come to a clearer understanding of the evidence provided by faith science claims with good reason to be the most valid system for explaining the physical universe and christianity claims also with good reason to be the most valid system possessed of the best evidence for explaining gods revelations of himself to man at the risk of repeating my argument as i have explained previously the trouble is that moslems buddhists jews etc will all say that they claim with good reason to be a valid system possessed of the best evidence for explaining gods revelations to man for buddhists it should read for explaining the non existence of god so not only must you prove your own case you have to disprove theirs alt messianic is a good place to see people strong in the belief of their own faiths and with their own good reasons if you doubt that christians use reason read this newsgroup for a while and you will see rational debate aplenty i know that all people can use reason i never claimed that they don t i just wish to make sure that their arguments are well founded it goes without saying that if i make a blunder that i expect people to correct me once we have all gone through this process of removing the non essential and contradictory bits we should hopefully have made some progress towards the truth mark baker the task is not to cut down jungles but aa freenet carleton ca to irrigate deserts c s lewis don lowe department of physics monash university melbourne victoria australia
soc.religion.christian	looking for christians in urbana illinois i apologize if this post isn t entirely appropriate for the newsgroup i would like to correspond with any christians attending the university of illinois at urbana champaign i will be transfering there in august to complete my ph d and i thought it would be nice to correspond with people before i moved out steven h schimmrich department of geological sciences non semper ss csc albany edu state university of new york at albany ea sunt quae ss albnyvms bitnet albany new york videntur
soc.religion.christian	re am i going to hell in apr geneva rutgers edu tim asks i have stated before that i do not consider myself an atheist but definitely do not believe in the christian god the recent discussion about atheists and hell combined with a post to another group to the effect of you will all go to hell has me interested in the consensus as to how a god might judge men as a catholic i was told that a jew buddhist etc might go to heaven but obviously some people do not believe this even more see atheists and pagans i assume i would be lumped into this category to be hellbound i know you believe only god can judge and i do not ask you to just for your opinions this is probably too simplistic for some but john saus for god so loved the world that he gave his only son that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life genesis and he abram believed the lord and he reckoned it to him as righteousness i don t find anywhere that god restricts heaven to particular ethnic groups or religious denominations or any other category that we humans like to drop people into but he does require that we believe and trust him in hebrews it says that god spoke of old by the prophets the old testament but in these last days he has spoken to us by his son jesus christ and we learn of him through the pages of the new testament the bible tells us what we need to believe for those who have never heard i leave them in god s capable care he will make himself known as he desires it behooves each one of us to act upon the knowledge we have if you reject the claims of jesus and still go to heaven then the joke s on me if you reject him and go to hell that s no joke but it will be final gerry the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer
soc.religion.christian	re atheist s views on christianity was re accepting jeesus in your heart in article apr athos rutgers edu jasons atlastele com jason smith writes one of the laws of nature specifying cause and effect seems to dictate at least to this layman s mind there must be a causal event no reasonable alternative exists the big bang model supposes a temporal singularity at the point of origin there was no time for a prior cause to occur in if you want to invent fables for the surrounding context fine but one fable is only as good as any other why should i prefer to believe in a god that just exists as opposed to a singularity that just happened or giant puce subspace iguanas that fling universes off their tongues like gobs of spit as far as i can tell the very laws of nature demand a why that isn t true of something outside of nature i e super natural i believe the genetic code will be entirely deciphered in our lifetimes but we will not see man convert entirely inert material into self sustaining reproducing life ever i ve never been much of a prophet though i can t even picture new york in my mind i don t believe any technology would be able to produce that necessary spark of life despite having all of the parts available just my opinion just your opinion and unfortunately wrong self assembling molecules have already been produced entirely from inert matter and have spontaneously mutated into a more rapidly assembling form on exposure to ultraviolet light both abiogenesis and the beginnings of evolution today saw this in nature early last year biological vitalism is dead and has been dead for many many years give it up life is not a spark life is the self organization of systems poised between chaos and order until the king returns jason your king baldly and repeatedly stated he would be back within the lifetime of some then present and alive soon soon he said over and over as have many would be messiahs it is nineteen ninety three of years anno domini tell me tell me where is he nowhere at all q e d max g webb i should have watched this more closely we had a discussion about the first cause etc not long ago i m not up for a replay there was also a detailed discussion of the point max brings up here about the initial singularity the geometry near the big bang is very interesting time turns into space so there is no before clh
soc.religion.christian	re losing your temper is not a christian trait from article apr athos rutgers edu by ruthless panix com ruth ditucci coming from a long line of hot tempered people i know temper when i see it one of the tell tale signs fruits that give non christians away is when their net replies are acrid angry and sarcastic i do hope that you are not suggesting that merely because a person replies in an acrid angry and sarcastic manner that this demonstrates their non christianity the simple fact is that there is not a christian on the face of the planet that i know of that is perfect i have been known at times to have a fit of temper or a sulk but this does not make me any the less a christian one of the points of being a christian as i perceive it is to become more like christ this statement inherently suggests that we are not already like christ jesus never unrighteously lost his temper i do jesus was perfect i m not we in the net village do have a laugh or two when professed born again christians verbally attack people who might otherwise have been won to christianity and had originally joined the discussions because they were spiritually hungry instead of answering questions with sweetness and sincerity these chrisitan net warriors flame the queries you must understand that this is because christians often forget to treat others as our role model christ would this is because we are human and falible i for one do not pretend to be infalible and i hope that my fellow men will bear with me when i make mistakes this surely is not too much to ask when i make every effort to bear with them you don t need any enemies you already do yourselves the greatest harm and don t we know it again i say foolish foolish foolish again i say we are all human to my brethren this ms duticci has a valid point and we as christians ought to heed the warning in her article we oftimes discredit ourselves and our saviour in the way that we treat others strive towards the goal set us by our lord but in the meantime remember there is no condemnation for those who are in christ when you blow it go easy on yourself forgive yourself as your father in heaven forgives you and remember and this is something i firmly beieve and cling to one day we shall see him face to face and in that day we shall finally be perfected i look forward to seeing you there rrrrr oo bbbbb r r oo oo b b r r oo oo b bb robert pomeroy r rr o o b b rrrr o o bbbbb u i teach cs keele ac uk r r o o b b r r oo oo b bb r r oo oo b b r r oo bbbbb ps if you want to draw anything to my attention then please mail me direct because i don t often read the news pps if i have offended anyone with this article i beg your forgiveness in advance
soc.religion.christian	re hell black sabbath in article apr geneva rutgers edu salaris niblick ecn purdue edu rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrabbits wrote jeff fenholt claims to have once been a roadie for black sabbath he was never ever a musician in the band he was in st louis several months back the poster i saw at the christian bookstore i frequent really turned me off it was addressed to all homosexuals prostitutes drug addicts alcoholics and headbangers or something like that well if i showed up with my long hair and black leather jacket i would have felt a little pre judged i have seen jeff fenholt speak and i didn t find him judgemental i think that the wording for that add was certainly inappropriate but i think they were trying to say that headbangers would like the program but i would not put headbangers in the same class as alcholics etc it is condescending and i believe that jeff was wearing black when i saw him by the way fenholt played jesus in jesus christ superstar personally i m a headbanger at times too but i have a hard time with what most of the secular metal groups promote free sex and drugs my opinion that many promote these aren t my thing i have found several good christian metal groups that i like jon jon ogden jono mac ak rtsg mot com motorola cellular advanced products division voice data they drew a circle and shut him out heretic rebel a thing to flout but love and i had the wit to win we drew a circle and took him in
soc.religion.christian	re losing your temper is not a christian trait in article apr geneva rutgers edu jcj tellabs com jcj wrote i d like to remind people of the withering of the fig tree and jesus driving the money changers et al out of the temple i think those were two instances of christ showing anger as part of his human side yes and what about paul saying be ye angry and sin not let not the sun go down upon your wrath ephesians obviously then we can be angry w o sinning jon jon ogden jono mac ak rtsg mot com motorola cellular advanced products division voice data they drew a circle and shut him out heretic rebel a thing to flout but love and i had the wit to win we drew a circle and took him in
soc.religion.christian	re harrassed at work could use some prayers well i ll email also but this may apply to other people so i ll post also i ve been working at this company for eight years in various engineering jobs i m female yesterday i counted and realized that on seven different occasions i ve been sexually harrassed at this company i dreaded coming back to work today what if my boss comes in to ask me some kind of question your boss should be the person bring these problems to if he she does not seem to take any action keep going up higher and higher sexual harrassment does not need to be tolerated and it can be an enormous emotional support to discuss this with someone and know that they are trying to do something about it if you feel you can not discuss this with your boss perhaps your company has a personnel department that can work for you while preserving your privacy most companies will want to deal with this problem because constant anxiety does seriously affect how effectively employees do their jobs it is unclear from your letter if you have done this or not it is not inconceivable that management remains ignorant of employee problems strife even after eight years it s a miracle if they do notice perhaps your manager did not bring to the attention of higher ups if the company indeed does seem to want to ignore the entire problem there may be a state agency willing to fight with you check with a lawyer a women s resource center etc to find out you may also want to discuss this with your paster priest husband etc that is someone you know will not be judgemental and that is supportive comforting etc this will bring a lot of healing so i returned at only to find that ever single person had already left for lunch they left at or so no one could be bothered to call me at the other building even though my number was posted this happens to a lot of people honest i believe it may seem to be due to gross insensitivity because of the feelings you are going through people in offices tend to be more insensitive while working than they normally are maybe it s the hustle or stress or i ve had this happen to me a lot often because they didn t realize my car was broken etc then they will come back and wonder why i didn t want to go this would tend to make me stop being angry at being ignored and make me laugh once we went off without our boss who was paying for the lunch for this reason i hope good mr moderator allows me this latest indulgence well if you can t turn to the computer for support what would we do signs of the computer age in closing please don t let the hateful actions of a single person harm you they are doing it because they are still the playground bully and enjoy seeing the hurt they cause and you should not accept the opinions of an imbecile that you are worthless much wiser people hold you in great esteem darin johnson djohnson ucsd edu luxury in my day we had to make do with bytes of swap
soc.religion.christian	christians that are not church members over the years i have met christians who are not associated with any local church and are not members of any local church this is an issue that may be very personal but is important what does the bible say about this and how can we encourage our friends with regard to this issue gary chin staff engineer sun microsystems mt view ca gchin eng sun com
soc.religion.christian	re am i going to hell tbrent ecn purdue edu timothy j brent writes i have stated before that i do not consider myself an atheist but so you believe in the existance of one creator i assume definitely do not believe in the christian god the recent discussion about atheists and hell combined with a post to another group to the effect of you will all go to hell has me interested in the consensus as to how a god might judge men as a catholic i was told that a jew buddhist etc might go to heaven but obviously some people do not believe this even more see atheists and pagans i assume i would be lumped into this category to be hellbound i know you believe only god can judge and i do not ask you to just for your opinions ok god has the disclaimer reserves the right to judge individual cases if we believe him to be loving then we also believe him to be able to serve justice to all don t worry if a jew or athiest is going to heaven or hell for that is god to judge although truly if you were concerned you could only worry abput those who refuse to believe satisfy gods decrees as much as keeping yourself straight if you see something going on that is wrong discuss it and explore it before making summary judgement people have enough free will to choose for themselves so don t force choices on them just inform them of what they re choices are god will take care of the rest in his justice thanks tim mohammad r khan khan nova gmi edu after july please send mail to mkhan nyx cs du edu
soc.religion.christian	re bible unsuitable for new christians news cbnewsk att com writes true also read peter peter warns that the scriptures are often hard to understand by those who are not learned on the subject where do insparations miracles fit in i was a new reader to the bible and qu ran at the same time in my life and i can tell you that i would have drifted in my faith if those books were not exposed to me joe moore mohammad r khan khan nova gmi edu after july please send mail to mkhan nyx cs du edu
soc.religion.christian	re help i m a commited christian that is battling with a problem i know that romans talks about how we are saved by our faith not our deeds yet hebrews and james say that faith without deeds is useless saying you fools do you still think that just believing is enough stuff deleted now i am of the opinion that you a saved through faith alone not what you do as taught in romans but how can i square up in my mind the teachings of james in conjunction with the lukewarm christian being spat out can anyone help me this really bothers me i have received tons of mail from people replying to this article i wrote and i would just like to thank everyone who took the time to give me a hand it has indeed helped me and re affirmed alot of theories that i held but was a little unsure about god bless you all will dallas cowboys world champions
soc.religion.christian	re doing the work of god desiree bradley desiree bradley mindlink bc ca wrote the next sunday the sermon was about joshua where the israelites take jericho and then proceed to massacre everybody there except for rahab who had sheltered the spies with those reports about bosnia in my mind i felt uncomfortable about the minister saying that the massacre the one in joshua was right but what really bothered me was that if i was going to try taking christianity seriously i shouldn t be so troubled about the reports of ethnic cleansing in bosnia certainly my sympathies shouldn t be with the moslims considering that the bosnian muslims are descendants of christians who under turkish rule converted to islam could the serbs be doing god s work perhaps it would be useful to ask whether those doing the ethnic cleansing could be said to be loving those they are killing in the very act of killing does it reflect the attitude of god who sends rain to both the just and the unjust if not then christians should be uncomfortable with it jesus gave his followers the law of love to follow and it is by exhibiting this that disciples will be known doctrinal or political correctness is not the standard so i don t see why christians should be moved against the serbs because their ancestors converted from christianity to islam it seems to me that as a christian you should be troubled by the ethnic cleansing peace scott shalkowski scott arts uwa edu au
soc.religion.christian	national day of prayer this is an annual time of prayer organized by the focus on the family organization if you have not heard about it on your christian radio station or at your local church call them and they may be able to give you the information many cities in the san francisco bay area have local coordinators organizing the time and the place to meet to pray in san francisco oakland berkeley san jose people will be meeting at pm at each city s city hall last year i attended at the mountain view city hall it was a very quiet and meaningful time of prayer gary chin staff engineer sun microsystems mt view ca gchin eng sun com
soc.religion.christian	re hell black sabbath in apr geneva rutgers edu jprzybyl skidmore edu writes i may be wrong but wasn t jeff fenholt part of black sabbath he s a major brother in christ now he totally changed his life around and why should he have been any different then ozzy osbourne ex singer and main character of the black sabbath of good ole days past is and always was a devout catholic or so i ve heard over on the alt rock n roll metal newsgroups an i figure those folks oughta know disclaimer it s great to be young and insane
soc.religion.christian	re the arrogance of christians why do we follow god so blindly have you ever asked a physically blind person why he or she follows a seeing eye dog the answer is quite simple the dog can see and the blind person cannot of course you may ask if i cannot trust my own senses how do i know whether what i see and hear about god is truth or a lie that is why we need faith to be saved we must force ourselves to believe that god knows the truth and loves us enough to share it with us even when it defies what we think we know why would he have created us if he did not love us enough to help us through this world seems to me if you learned to differentiate between illusion and reality on your own you wouldn t need to rely on doctrines that need to be updated my experience of christianity years is that most christians seek answers from clergymen who have little or no direct experience of spiritual matters and that most of these questions can be answered by simple introspection most people suspect that they cannot trust their senses but few take the next step to figure out that they can trust themselves not to get too esoteric but it seems that most religions christianity included are founded by particularly intuitive people who understand this stuff deleted as for you no one can convert you you must choose to follow god of your own will if you are ever to follow him all we as christians wish to do is share with you the love we have received from god if you reject that we have to accept your decision although we always keep the offer open to you if you really want to find out why we believe what we believe i can only suggest you try praying for faith reading the bible and asking christians about their experiences personally and what if the original poster pixie is never converted does it make sense that she or i or the majority of humanity for that matter would go to hell for eternity as many christians believe it makes more sense to me that rather than be converted to a centuries old doctrine that holds no life for her that she simply continue to decide for herself what is best you may be right about christians relying on clergy but i have some reason to hope you re not protestants emphasize conversion experience of the holy spirit and use of the bible this is intended to make sure that christians have religious experience of their own and that they have some basis on which to judge claims of clergy and other christians i can t speak for catholics and orthodox but i believe they also attempt to avoid having members who simply repeat what they are told i admit that this isn t always successful we certainly see young people join our church because at that age parents expect it but most of our members do seem quite able and willing to make judgements for themselves and have a commitment that comes out of their own experience unfortunately it s the nature of usenet that doctrinal disagreements get emphasized so it looks like we spend most of our time dealing with doctrine that s certainly not my experience of the way christians really live clh
soc.religion.christian	re daily verse in article apr athos rutgers edu petch gvg gvg tek com chuck petch writes how much better to get wisdom than gold to choose understanding rather than silver proverbs ah and how amen to that one thanks chuck for sharing after all no one can serve two masters god and money after all the preciousness of god as lord and savior is far more valuable than being a millionaire will ever be in him scott
soc.religion.christian	re some questions from a new christian ofm responds to a query about reference works aside from a commentary you might also want to consider an introduction these are books intended for use in undergraduate bible courses they give historical background discussion of literary styles etc and generally they have good bibligraphies for further reading i typically recommend kee froehlich and young s nt introduction two other intros to consider the introduction by ku mmel is a translation of a strandard nt text the references are slightly dated and the style is somewhat dense but the book contains a wealth of information perrin and duling s intro is also very good it s somewhat more modern than ku mmel s but not quite so densely packed also the authors tend to go through the books of the nt in the historical order of composition this gives a very useful perspective on the development of the nt there are also some good one volume commentaries probably the best recommendation these days would be harper s bible commentary a slight dissent i think the harper s is ok but not great one particular problem i have is that it tends to be pretty skimpy on bibliographic material my feeling is that it is ok for quick look ups but not real useful for study in depth e g i keep a copy in my office at work i think there may be a couple of books with this title so far as i know there is the only one book with this exact title james l mays general editor harper and row although i think i recall a older series under the name harper commentaries also there s a separate harper s bible dictionary most of my comments on the hc also apply to the hbd my favorite one volume commentary is the new jerome biblical commentary the njbc is rather catholic in focus and somewhat biased towards the nt the reader can decide for her or himself whether these are pluses or minuses in any case the scholarship is by and large excellent note the njbc is a completely reworked updated version of the jerome biblical commentary copies of which can still be found on sale nichael
soc.religion.christian	god shaped hole was re accepting jeesus in your heart in article apr athos rutgers edu johnsd rpi edu dan johnson writes those who have an empty spot in the god shaped hole in their hearts must do something to ease the pain i have heard this claim quite a few times does anybody here know who first came up with the god shaped hole business was it pascal or maybe descartes who first used this figure of speech i seem to have some vague recollections from reading some of their essays but i certainly couldn t say it was one of them for sure todd smith tsmith cs stanford edu
soc.religion.christian	re can sin block our prayers in article apr athos rutgers edu qucdn queensu ca writes i have heard an interesting notion that sin can block our prayers to god i e god will not hear our prayers if we have not confessed our sins now i am totally supportive of confessing our sins before god but i simply do not believe god will shut us out just because we did not confess this is kind of like the idea that suffering is caused by sin which as any job reader will realize is too simpilistic rest deleted can the father possibly not hear the words of his children of course he hears all your prayers whether you are a sinner or a saint no questions the real question you should be asking is does sin block our hearing his answer and the answer to that question is a resounding yes to paraphrase the gospel many are called but few choose to listen and so it is with prayer in christ james james hale lincoln school of health sciences computing unit la trobe university bundoora australia james hale latrobe edu au the grace of god rests gently on forgiving eyes and everything they look on speaks of him to the beholder he can see no evil nothing in the world to fear and no one who is different from himself text p
soc.religion.christian	daily verse above all love each other deeply because love covers over a multitude of sins ipeter
soc.religion.christian	re the arrogance of christians in article apr athos rutgers edu aa freenet carleton ca mark baker writes very good and reasonable statements on authority deleted the atheist position seems to be that there are no authorities this is a reasonable assertion in itself but it leads to a practical difficulty if you reject all authority out of hand you reject all possibility of every receiving information thus the atheist position can never possibly change it is non falsifiable and therefore unscintific this is not true the athiest s position is that there is no proof of the existence of god as much as some people accept their church their priests or straight from their own scriptures as the proof this does not satisfy atheists atheists do believe in recognisable authorities if they were as dogmatic as you claim they are they would be trying to prove every time they got up what they dispute is that churches priests scriptures etc represent true authorities and know the truth to demand scintific or rational proof of god s existence is to deny god s existence since neither science nor reason can in their very nature prove anything are you asking us to believe blindly you are trying to deny that part of us that makes us ask the question does god exist i e self awareness and reason if we do not use our ability to reason we become as ignorant as the other animals on this earth does god want us to be like that you are right that science and reason cannot prove anything however if we do not use them we can only then believe on faith alone and since we can only use faith why is one picture of god e g hinduism any less valid than another e g christianity mark baker the task is not to cut down jungles but aa freenet carleton ca to irrigate deserts c s lewis don lowe department of physics monash university melbourne victoria australia
soc.religion.christian	re ancient books in article apr athos rutgers edu mayne ds scri fsu edu bill mayne writes in article apr athos rutgers edu miner kuhub cc ukans edu writes any former atheists converted by argument this is an excellent question and i ll be anxious to see if there are any such cases i doubt it in the medieval period esp th cent when aquinas flourished argument was a useful tool because everyone knew the rules today when you can t count on people knowing even the basics of logic or seeing through rhetoric a good argument is often indistinguishable from a poor one the last sentence is ironic since so many readers of soc religion christian seem to not be embarrassed by apologists such as josh mcdowell and c s lewis i haven t followed whatever discussion there may have been on these people but i feel that c s lewis is an excellent apologist and i see no reason for embarrassment if you think that errors and flawed arguments are a reason for dismissing a thinker you must dismiss nearly every thinker from descartes to kant any philosophy course will introduce you to their weaknesses the above also expresses a rather odd sense of history what makes you think the masses in aquinas day who were mostly illiterate knew any more about rhetoric and logic than most people today if writings from the period seem elevated consider that only the cream of the crop so to speak could read and write if everyone in the medieval period knew the rules it was a matter of uncritically accepting what they were told i said nothing about the masses however comparing the masses in our day and in aquinas day really is odd read ortega y gasset on this i m talking about the familiar experience of arguing all night and winning on logic and evidence only to discover your opponent to be unaware even intuitively of things like entailment let alone pragmatics i am assuming that both parties are college graduates or better myself i don t bother any more ken miner kuhub cc ukans edu nobody can explain everything to everybody opinions are my own g k chesterton
soc.religion.christian	re some questions from a new christian steven r hoskins bach udel edu wrote hi i am new to this newsgroup and also fairly new to christianity i realize i am very ignorant about much of the bible and quite possibly about what christians should hold as true this i am trying to rectify by reading the bible of course but it would be helpful to also read a good interpretation commentary on the bible or other relevant aspects of the christian faith one of my questions i would like to ask is can anyone recommend a good reading list of theological works intended for a lay person i d recommend mcdowell s evidence that demands a verdict books i think and manfred brauch s hard sayings of paul he also may have done hard sayings of jesus my focus would be for a new christian to struggle with his faith and be encouraged by the historical evidence especially one who comes from a background which emphasizes knowable faith scott dittman email sdittman wlu edu university registrar talk fax washington and lee university snail mail lexington virginia
soc.religion.christian	re when are two people married in god s eyes in article apr athos rutgers edu randerso acad sahs uth tmc edu robert anderson writes i would like to get your opinions on this when exactly does an engaged couple become married in god s eyes not if they are unwilling to go through a public marriage ceremony nor if they say they are willing but have not actually done so let s distinguish real logistical problems like being stranded on a desert island from excuses such as waiting for so and so s brother to come back from being in the army so he can be in the ceremony michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
soc.religion.christian	re proof of resurection jsledd ssdc sas upenn edu james sledd writes finally there is no proof of the resurrection of christ except in our spirits communion with his and the father s it is a matter of faith belief without logical proof incedently one of the largest stumbling blocks for rational western man myself included i hope that this is taken in the spirit it was intended and not as a rejection of the resurrection s occurance i beleive but i wanted to point out the weakness of logical proofs terms are being used in a loaded way here logical proof is an extremely messy thing to apply to real life if you think otherwise try to construct a proof that yesterday happened obviously it did anyone old enough to be reading this was there for it and remembers that it happened but proof a proof starts with axioms and goes somewhere you need axioms to talk about logical proof you can say that you remember yesterday and that you take as axiom that anything you clearly remember happened i could counterclaim that you hallucinated the whole thing to talk about proofs of historical events you have to relax the terms a bit you can show evidences not proofs evidences of the resurrected jesus exist proofs do not i think christianity goes down in flames if the resurrection is ever disproved i also think that this will not happen as the evidence for the resurrection is quite good as these things go it is not entirely fair to claim that you can only take the resurrection on faith there are reasons to believe it that appeal to the mind too
soc.religion.christian	some questions from a new christian reply to pwhite empros com in article apr athos rutgers edu bach udel edu steven r hoskins writes i have another question i would like to ask i am not yet affiliated with any one congregation aside from matters of taste what criteria should one use in choosing a church i don t really know the difference between the various protestant denominations here in america people tend to think of choosing a church much like they think of choosing a car or a country club what i mean is that our culture is such that we tend towards satisfying our own wants rather than considering things with others in mind and not making prayer an initial and primary part of the decision process people tend to treat church as they would a club and when something is less than to their liking off they go to another one i think that scripture presents the idea that god takes a different perspective on the church choosing process it seems to me from cor that god doesn t subscribe to the idea of us choosing a church at all but that he places us in the body as he wants us so i think a better question is not how do i choose a church but how do i figure out where god is trying to place me if a person was instrumental in leading you to christ the church they go to is a logical first choice you have been born into the family of god people should hop around from church to church as often as they hop from natural family to family if you met the lord on your own so to speak there may not be an easily identifiable church to try for starters here you are more like an orphan prayerfully go and leave yourself on a few doorsteps and see if anyplace feels like home i wouldn t expect that god want to place you in a church where you have difficulty fitting in with the people but on the other hand there are no perfect churches if you have an attitude of looking for problems you will both find them and make them on the other hand if you have an attitude of love and committment you will spread that wherever you go in general i think that god will try to place you in a church that talks about the lord in the way that you have come to know him and is expanding on that base peter white disclaimer none of what is written necessarily reflects a view of my company phil i want to know christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in niv his sufferings becoming like him in his death
soc.religion.christian	re re does god love you in article apr athos rutgers edu jayne mmalt guild org jayne kulikauskas writes i am uncomfortable with the tract in general because there seems to be an innappropriate emphasis on hell god deserves our love and worship because of who he is i do not like the idea of frightening people into accepting christ and yet jayne as we read the gospels and in particular the topics that jesus himself spoke on hell figures in a large of the time certainly more than heaven itself paul as we learn in i thess taught new believers and new churches eschatology and did not hesitate to teach hell and damnation rev chapter is very specific and cannot be allegorized i think the word throne is used times in rev and that the unbelieving come to receive the assignment of the severity of judgement for in john we read that they are already judged rom speaks that every mouth will be shut there is no recourse excuse or defense i see evangelism as combining a way of living that shows god s love with putting into words and explaining that love preaching the gospel without living the gospel is no better than being a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal yes i agree with you life is often like a pendulum where it swings to extremes before stopping at moderation i think we have seen the extreme of the hell fire brimstone preacher but also we have seen the other extreme where hell not talked about at all for fear of offending someones sensibilities i forget who founded the word of life ministries but i remember him telling a story he was in a small town hardware store and some how a man got to the point of telling him that he didn t believe in satan or hell he believed everybody was going to heaven it was at this point that the man was asked to pray to god that he would send his children to hell of course the man wouldn t do it but the point was made many people say they don t believe in hell but they are not willing to really place their faith in that it doesn t exist if this man had he would of prayed the prayer because hell didn t exist and there would have been no fear in having his prayer answered and yet they walk as if they believe they will never be sent there i d use a different illustration however i have to include myself in it when i watch say a basketball go bulls game and i see a blatant foul that isn t called oi vey what s with that ref that he didn t make that call it s unfair and just so in life righteousness demands payment as the surgeon takes knife in hand to cut the cancer away so god cuts off that which is still of the old creation we must preach the gospel in all its richness which includes the fact that if you reject the way and the truth and the life then broad is the way to distruction here s a question how many of you are christians because you are afraid of going to hell how many are responding to god s love i think i would fall in there somewhere actually it was both after all repentance isn t only a turning towards but also a turning away from no again if jesus used it in his ministry then i can surely see that we should do it also in love of course but in truth most assuredly i have thought about writing something on this topic but not now and here i would say that there are some good reasons for its existence and its eternality god is light yes he is love but his love has the boundary of holiness dignity of man either a man is a robot or he is a responsible creature if responsible then he is also accountable the awfulness of sin today we have a poor poor concept of sin god christ he was willing to die and go there himself to offer an avenue to the whosoever will rex
soc.religion.christian	major views of the trinity with frank s permission i have added some information here and in one case changed the order of his contributions in order to clarify the historical relationship of the views my comments are based primarily on william rusch s historical summary in the trinitarian controversy fortress i m going to save this as an faq clh major views of the trinity second century the writers of the nd cent are important because they set up much of the context for the later discussions justin martyr aristides athenagoras tatian and theophilus of antioch are known as the apologists their theology has often been described as logos theology based strongly on wording in john they took more or less a two phase approach through eternity the logos was with the father as his mind or thought this immanent word became expressed as god revealed himself in history ultimately in jesus thus jesus full distinction from the father only became visible in history though the logos had been present in god from eternity rusch regards this view is containing many of the emphases of the final orthodox position but in a form which is less sophisticated because it did not have the technical language to properly deal with the eternal plurality in the godhead irenaeus held views somewhat similar to the apologists however he was uncomfortable with the two stage approach he still viewed god as one personage with distinctions that did not become fully visible except through his process of self revelation the economy the distinctions are present in his essential nature irenaeus emphasized the holy spirit more than the apologists irenaeus views should probably be called economic trinitarianism though that term is normally used as below to refer to later developments third century clh dynamic monarchianism source theodotus adherents paul of samosota artemon socinus modern unitarians perception of god s essence the unity of god denotes both oneness of nature and oneness of person the son and the holy spirit therefore are consubstantial with the father s divine essence only as impersonal attributes the divine dunamis came upon the man jesus but he was not god in the strict sense of the word perception of god s subsistence the notion of a subsistent god is a palpable impossibility since his perfect unity is perfectly indivisible the diversity of god is apparent and not real since the christ event and the work of the holy spirit attest only to a dynamic operation within god not to a hypostatic union asignation of deity eternality father unique originator of the universe he is eternal self existent and without beginning or end son a virtuous but finite man in whose life god was dynamically present in a unique way christ definitely was not deity though his humanity was deified holy spirit an impersonal attribute of the godhead no deity or eternality is ascribed to the holy spirit criticism s elevates reason above the witness of biblical revelation concerning the trinity categorically denies the deity of christ and of the holy spirit thereby undermining the theological undergirding for the biblical doctrine of salvation in summary this probably best thought of as not being trinitarianism at all god is an undifferentiated one son and holy spirit are seen as simply names for the man jesus and the grace of god active in the church clh modalistic monarchianism source praxeas adherents noatus sabellius swedenborg scleiermacher united pentecostals jesus only perception of god s essence the unity of god is ultra simplex he is qualitatively characterized in his essence by one nature and person this essence may be designated interchangeably as father son and holy spirit they are different names for but identical with the unified simplex god the three names are the three modes by which god reveals himself perception of god s subsistence the concept of a subsistent god is erroneous and confounds the real issue of the phenomenon of god s modalistic manifesting of himself the paradox of a subsisting three in oneness is refuted by recognizing that god is not three persons but one person with three different names and corresponding roles following one another like parts of a drama asignation of deity eternality father fully god and fully eternal as the primal mode or manifestation of the only unique and unitary god son full deity eternality ascribed only in the sense of his being another mode of the one god and identical with his essence he is the same god manifested in temporal sequence specific to a role incarnation holy spirit eternal god only as the tile designates the phase in which the one god in temporal sequence manifested himself pursuant to the role of regeneration and sanctification criticism s depersonalizes the godhead to compensate for its trinitarian deficiencies this view propounds ideas that are clearly heretical its concept of successive manifestations of the godhead cannot account for such simultaneous appearances of the three persons as at christ s baptism rusch comments that evidence on these beliefs is sketchy there are actually two slightly different groups included noetus and his followers and sabellius noetus was apparently more extreme sabellius followed him and attempted to use some features of economic trinitarianism to create a more sophisticated view unfortunately information about sabellius comes from a century later and there seems to be some confusion between him and marcellus of ancyra clh i ve moved the following description to be with the other third century views it originally appeared near the end clh economic trinitarianism source hippolytus tertullian adherents various neo economic trinitarians perception of god s essence the godhead is characterized by triunity father son and holy spirit are the three manifestations of one identical indivisible substance the perfect unity and consubstantiality are especially comprehended in such manifest triadic deeds as creation and redemption perception of god s subsistence subsistence within the godhead is articulated by means of such terms as distinction and distribution dispelling effectively the notion of separateness or division asignation of deity eternality the equal deity of father son and holy spirit is clearly elucidated in observation of the simultaneous relational operational features of the godhead co eternality at times does not intelligibly surface in this ambiguous view but it seems to be a logical implication criticism s is more tentative and ambiguous in its treatment of the relational aspect of the trinity note that this is a development of the apologists and irenaeus as mentioned above as with them the threeness is visible primarily in the various ways that god revealed himself in history however they did say that this is a manifestation of a plurality that is somehow present in the godhead from the beginning tertullian talks of the father son and holy spirit as being three that are one in substance many people regard this view as being essentially orthodox but with less developed philosophical categories clh origen developing further an approach started by clement attempted to apply neo platonism to christian thought he set many of the terms of the coming battle in platonic fashion he sees the son as a mediator mediating between the absolute one of god and the plurality of creating beings the son is generated but he is eternally generated that is the relationship between father and son is eternal it cannot be said that there was once when he was not a phrase that will haunt the discussion for centuries having the son is intrinsic to his concept of god the father and son are described as separate hypostases though this may not have quite the meaning of separate subsistence that it had in some contexts the union is one of love and action but there is some reason to think that he may have used the term homoousios of the same substance the holy spirit is also an active personal substance originated by the father through the son origen s intent is trinitarian not tritheistic but he pushes things in the direction of separateness fourth century clh subordinationism often called arianism clh source arius major adherents modern jehovah s witnesses and several other lesser known cults perception of god s essence the inherent oneness of god s nature is properly identifiable with the father only the son and the holy spirit are discreet entities who do not share the divine essence perception of god s subsistence the unipersonal essence of god precludes the concept of divine subsistence with a godhead threeness in oneness is self contradictory and violates biblical principles of a monotheistic god asignation of deity eternality father the only one unbegotten god who is eternal and without beginning son a created being and therefore not eternal though he is to be venerated he is not of the divine essence holy spirit a nonpersonal noneternal emanation of the father he is viewed as an influence an expression of god deity is not ascribed to him criticism s it is at variance with abundant scriptural testimony respecting the deity of both christ and the holy spirit its hierarchial concept likewise asserts three essentially separate persons with regard to the father christ and the holy spirit this results in a totally confused soteriology note also that in most versions of this view the son is not fully human either he is supernatural and sinless that distinguishes this view from adoptionism clh orthodox trinitarianism source athanasius adherents basil gregory of nyssa gregory of nazianzus augustine thomas aquinas luther calvin contemporary orthodox christianity perception of god s essence god s being is perfectly unified and simplex of one essence this essence of deity is held in common by father son and holy spirit the three persons are consubstantial coinherent co equal and co eternal perception of god s subsistence the divine subsistence is said to occur in three modes of being or hypostases as such the godhead exists undivided in divided persons this view contemplates an identity in nature and cooperation in function without the denial of distinctions of persons in the godhead asignation of deity eternality in its final distillation this view unhesitatingly sets forth father son and holy spirit as co equal and co eternal in the godhead with regard to both the divine essence and function criticism s the only shortcoming has to do with the limitations inherent in human language and thought itself the impossibility of totally describing the ineffable mystery of three in oneness at least in the th cent there were several different approaches all of which fit the description here and all regarded as orthodox but which are somewhat different in detail nicea was originally held to respond to arius arius can be thought of as carrying origen s thought a bit too far to the point of making the son a separate entity in general the east tended to take an approach based on origen s and it was hard to get acceptance of nicea in the east its final acceptance was based on the work of athanasius with the cappadocians gregory of nyssa and gregory of nazianzus among others while starting with three they show that their unity in nature and and action is such that one must think of them as being a single god this allowed the council of constantinople in to get wide agreement on the idea of three hypostatese and one ousia clh adapted from charts of christian theology and doctrine by h wayne house frank if one wished to contend with him he could not answer him one time out of a thousand job
soc.religion.christian	love europe are any readers of s r c going to the love europe congress in germany this july michael davis cs mcd brunel ac uk
soc.religion.christian	re doing the work of god desiree bradley desiree bradley mindlink bc ca asked us whether we should think of the serbs as doing god s work in bosnia i ve refrained from posting in hope that someone who is more familiar with the ot than i would answer but at this point i feel i have to say something many things about this posting bother me i know of not the slightest suggestion in the nt that christians should use force to propagate the gospel and the idea that we should not be concerned about the death of moslems violates the heart of the gospel christ died to break down these distinctions in him there is neither jew nor greek there is neither slave nor free there is neither male nor female if moslems do not know him we may preach to them but we don t kill them furthermore the attack is between states not religions there are christians being attacked as well one of the towns under attack is one of the few places where christians and moslems are living together peacefully the precedents being suggested are from the ot there are in fact two different things being alluded to the first is from the entry into canaan for that to be a parallel we would need for god to have promised this land through a prophet and we would need the war to be a holy war there were tight constraints on behavior in those attacks any violations were likely to cause the israelites to be defeated rape would not have been tolerated while the accounts in joshua emphasize towns that were totally destroyed note that it was possible for a town to make peace with the israelites and that once that was done even when deception was involved they were expected to honor it in contrast there have been many violations of agreement in this incident i see no evidence that god has granted bosnia to the serbs as a promised land and if he had their behavior would have disqualified this from being a holy war the other ot parallel is from later when israel was defeated by assyria and babylonia the prophets saw this as a judgement on israel for her sins someone asks whether we shouldn t see this as a judgement on the bosnians for their sins this sounds like a replay of the old claim that we shouldn t have doctors or hospitals because illness is god s judgement yes even bad things may be used by god for good that includes actions of bad people but that doesn t justify them if you read the prophets you find them very clear that in attacking israel the assyrians and babylonians were acting as unintentional agents of god their intent was to attack god s people and they would be judged for it the fact that they were actually carrying out god s plan didn t excuse their action furthermore we shouldn t conclude from this that all attacks are judgements from god god explicitly interpreted that case through his prophets as far as i know he did not send any prophets to bosnia while i find it hard to see any good in the current fighting i am sure god will eventually make good come out of bad but that doesn t justify it and it won t save the people who are doing it from judgement i am particularly concerned about the implications of this issue because of current tensions between the west and moslem oriented nations what we do not need is for moslems to conclude that christians think it s ok to kill moslems the implications for the mid east and even relations with american moslems could be quite serious
soc.religion.christian	daily verse but someone will say you have faith i have deeds show me your faith without deeds and i will show you my faith by what i do james
soc.religion.christian	maybe hi christian friends my name is joel i have a sister who s th birthday is tomorrow she used to be on fire for the lord but somehow for some reason she became cold she don t want to associate anymore with her old christian friends so i thought maybe some of you could help her out again by sending her a postcard or card with a little message of encouragement hand written is okay her address is hobart ave san jose ca thank you and god bless ps jesus christ is lord i have some qualms about postings like this you might want to engage in a bit more conversation with joel before deluging someone who doesn t expect it with cards clh
soc.religion.christian	re hell black sabbath in article apr geneva rutgers edu salaris niblick ecn purdue edu rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrabbits writes i like those lyrics since whenever i am approached by judgemental pharisitical evangelical fundamentalists who throw the bible at me because i have long hair wear a black leather jacket and listen to black sabbath i have something to throw back it just goes to show that there are more important evils in the world to battle than rock lyrics it just goes to show that not all evangelical fundamentalists are pharisitical i wear a black leather jacket like classic rock but no longer have the long locks i once had however i too rely upon the bible as a basis for christian ethics a fundamentalistic evangelical rex
soc.religion.christian	re help i m a commited christian that is battling with a problem i know that romans talks about how we are saved by our faith not our deeds yet hebrews and james say that faith without deeds is useless saying you fools do you still think that just believing is enough stuff deleted now i am of the opinion that you a saved through faith alone not what you do as taught in romans but how can i square up in my mind the teachings of james in conjunction with the lukewarm christian being spat out can anyone help me this really bothers me will there has been a lot of discussion going on about this over in s r c b s i will make the case here though and try to help you out for by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of god not of works lest any man should boast ephesians yes it is by god s grace and our faith that we are saved we are not saved by what we do however if ye love me keep my commandments john keeping christ s commandments is a work per se and a demonstration of our love for him also he spake also this parable a certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard and he came and sought fruit thereon and found none then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard behold these three years i come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none cut it down why cumbereth it the ground and he answering said unto him lord let it alone this year also till i shall dig about it and dung it and if it bear fruit well and if not then after that thou shalt cut it down luke again ye have not chosen me but i have chosen you and ordained you that ye should go and bring forth fruit and that your fruit should remain that whatsoever ye shall ask of the father in my name he may give it you john it is clear from these verses that we are called to bring forth fruit what is that fruit well paul speaks of the fruit of the spirit being love joy peace patience etc all of these are things that are manifest in the actions that we carry out if a person claims to believe in jesus christ but does not do the things christ commanded i dare say that they really don t have any faith asking which is more important faith or works is like asking which blade on a pair of scissors is most important or like asking which leg of your pants is more important good works should come out of and be a result of our faith to have faith true faith in christ requires you to do what he commands the parable above speaks allegorically of a person who does bear no fruit christs commands are actions and if we don t do those actions and produce fruit then we shall be uprooted just like the tree it is a dead and useless faith which has no action behind it actions prove our faith and show the genuineness of it i can sit and talk for days about the fact that i have so much faith in my ability to jump off a building and not hit the ground in other words i can sit and tell you all day long that i have faith in my ability to fly i really don t have that faith though unless i am willing to jump off the roof and take the test words and talk mean nothing i could go on and give more scriptures and if people want me to i will but this should be sufficient hope it helped jon sig file broken please try later
soc.religion.christian	re being right about messiahs in article geneva rutgers edu desiree bradley mindlink bc ca desiree bradley writes i must have missed the postings about waco david koresh and the second coming how does one tell if a second coming is the real thing unless the person claiming to be it is obviously insane first by his fruits the messiah comes to build the kingdom of heaven on the earth he also comes to first reveal the root cause of original sin fallen nature and then provide a means to cut the connection to that original sin he also wants to create world peace based on godism the messiah s teachings will build on the foundation of the bible but provide profound new insights into the nature of god the fall of man the purpose of creation and god s providence of restoration it will also provide a foundation for the unity of all the world s religions many christians expect jesus to come on literal clouds so they may miss him when he returns just as the jewish people missed jesus years ago they are still waiting for his first coming the jewish people of that age expected elijah to come first jesus said that john the baptist was elijah but john the baptist denied that he was elijah how did this reflect on jesus later in prison john even questioned who jesus was is he the one who is to come or do we look for another see book of matthew i m not saying that david koresh is the second coming of christ how could somebody who breaks his word be the second coming koresh did promise that he would come out of his compound if only he was allowed to give a radio broadcast he didn t still it seems to me that he did fool some people david koresh didn t even come close the problem is that people like this make it difficult for people to believe and trust in the real messiah when he does show up and from my meagre knowledge of the bible it seems that christians have been hard on the jews of christ s day for being cautious about accepting somebody that their religious authorities didn t accept as the messiah so i was surprised that nobody had discussed the difficulty of wanting to be early to recognize the second coming while at the same time not wanting to be credulously believing just anybody who claims to be god very good point and perhaps the most important point of all for christians how to recognize the second coming the messiah should not claim to be god what sets a messiah apart is that he is born without original sin he is not born perfect but achieves perfection after a period of growth adam and eve were born sinless but they fell and this tragedy meant that it would take god thousands of years to create the kingdom of heaven on the earth as god originally intended god s restoration providence is still not complete the messiah is the true son of god one with god god s representative on the earth but not god himself there is only one god mark and then if any one says to you look here is the christ or look there he is do not believe it mark and then they will see the son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory my understanding of jesus answer is that unlike his first coming which was veiled the second coming will be quite unmistakeable by the way from koresh s public statement it s not so clear to me that he is claiming to be christ who else in this world is claiming to be the messiah maybe he s already here mike
soc.religion.christian	witches and wiccan your opinion i am a student at uw eau claire i am doing a paper an witches and wanted to get your point of view i will not use you name unless you specifically tell me to do so please answer this question as a christian are you offended by witches and wiccan do you feel that tehy are pagan in the evil sense of the word you time and cooperation is appreciated thanks j this survey is being conducted in partial fulfillment of the course requirements for engl taught by karen welch at the university of wisconsin eau claire this course is in compliance with the course certification requirements of the university institutional review board for the protection of human subjects but is it in compliance with any reasonable method for choosing samples clh
soc.religion.christian	re assurance of hell in article apr geneva rutgers edu lfoard hopper virginia edu lawrence c foard writes and many others mailed me here is a reply to one of the letters seems to me that atheist do not like the doctrine of hell there s nothing like a preacher to put fear into an ignorant man if god hadn t created hell in the first place there d be no no need to die and save us isn t it also a bit paradoxical to say god died when in fact no such thing is remotely possible can the infinite die your using th century concepts to interprete st century writers of course in your termonology god could not cease to exist however that is not what death ever means in the scriptures if you will study the word you will see that it signifies separation death is separation not ceastation this is the reason for the agony of the cross for the first time in eternity one member of the godhead was separated from the other two i once met a young lady that was as beautiful as any model that ever lived she was as personable as any saint ever imagined she was to become my girlfriend for several years however having been drafted we were separated by distance to me that was a form of death later she decided that she couldn t wait for me to come home and bid me adue that to me was death it was separation from that which had made me whole death is separation and eternal death is eternal separation from his fellowship not because he chose to send you into outer darkness but because you chose to go there did you know that jesus talked more about hell than he did about heaven thank you for this info what respect i had for the man now has been diminished tenfold i promise never again to say how wise or loving this man was when i rebelled against my earthly father he spanked me i found no wisdom in that until i had grown older and especially until i had my own children he was trying to guide me away from hurt that would enter my life if i continued on my suicidal course he did it in love though i interpreted it as harsh and unloving if god warns of impending danger that is love if choose to let us do as we please and then at the end tell us the rules that would be harsh you have a conscience no matter how calused or fallen it is that witnesses to you that a thing is wrong and that there is cause for fear being jesus was allegedly god i doubt he could honestly feel the pinpricks man dealt him this may give light to the error of your understanding one must have correct knowledge in order to have correct faith faith and knowledge are inseparable jesus most certainly felt the pinpricks of life as the scripture say heb for we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses but one who has been tempted in all things as we are yet without sin the kenosis passage of phil states that he gave up his godhead attributes when he took upon himself humanity it has been a favorite meditation of mine to think about this it was to be my phd thesis the consciousness of christ i have talked at length with a great many people about this interesting study including clh it is my conclussion that as jesus the nd member of the trinity actually suffered as we do he became part of the human race and experienced it as we do he grew in knowledge he chose not to grasp his omniscience but chose to be taught it is my understanding that he was led of the spirit to such an extent that sometimes it is hard to distinquish between jesus the man and jesus as god but in jn where the adulterous women was thrown before him the tenses are quite clear in that the whole situation took him by surprise that is he was not aware that this event was to take place in time he was living sequential history as you or i maybe some other time we can discuss this but it is a very lengthy discussion and one that causes the curcuit breakers of the brain to pop more often than not thanks again for the info just so you know some friends and i are starting a freethinkers organization and i m going to use some of the info you provided for an organization intro duction i was once a member of that club the free thinker is a glorious ideal by contrast of course you believe that the believer is the unforunate repository of everything that is dogmatic inhibited reactionary and repressive i find such a stance to be as amusing as it is absurd if the liberal humanist wishes to criticize a christian or a buddhist or a marxist that is his right but what he must not pretend is that he was led to this solely by his rational doubt when in fact he was led to it by his faith he must acknowledge that while it is rational doubt for him as a free thinker to criticize the christian it might equally be a rational doubt for the christian to criticize him as a humanist if there is no faith there can be no dout there is no faith which cannot choose to cast doubt on some other faith pascal pointed out that sceptical arguments allow the positive to be positive few speak dubiously of scepticism the fact that skeptics are not skeptical about skepticism is further evidence that to doubt anything we must believe in something else the person who is skeptical toward one faith or even most faiths will be the devoted adherent of another in fact it is a measure of his poverty both that he is unaware of it and that he can define himself only in negative terms hence the term a theist some people claim otherwise and argue vociferously for complete skepticism in my campus ministry i ran across this more times than i care to remember however they disproved their own argument with every thought every word every point of logic that they used every moment of shared communication speaks against their total skepticism their very insistence of trying to make sense is eloquent testimony to assumptions that are powerful though silent that is to say that complete skepticism is impossible and limited skepticism is arbitrary next time you re in a room of skeptics yell out look your fly is undone each person chooses what he is skeptical about and what he believes without skepticism to stress this is to belabor the obvious but it underlines the point that no one can know exhaustively how he knows what he knows pure objectivism is a myth and complete skepticism an impossiblity the answer to this impasse lies in a rd way of knowing one which is based on presuppositions but if knowledge proceeds on what must be presupposed before it is proved the cover is blown on the pretentions of critical doubt and critical doubt depends on the idea that human knowledge is totally objective and neutral in other words another myth presuppositions my friend it is impossible to doubt anything unless there is something we do not doubt our own assumptions presuppostions even these can be criticezed only upon the basis of other assumptions presuppostitons are our silent partners in thought but their silence must not be mistaken for absence i tell you what if god condemns me for being honest he is unworthy of my worship better to burn in hell than to serve a tyrant in heaven of course that is hardly an original statement milton coined it but it had been in use for millenia it was even used in the first highlander movie but again your presuption is based on a faulty knowledge of the character of god you are operating off of a presuppositional premise of humanistic theology not what he has revealed of himself through history through his prophets through his word and lastly but most of all thru his son if you are to reject god s annointed savior then reject him from a correct understanding of himself rex
soc.religion.christian	re the arrogance of christians in article apr geneva rutgers edu phs d vaxc cc monash edu au writes but what if the geologists are wrong and these people are warning of a non existent danger analogies can only push an argument so far on both sides both melinda s and yours assume the premises used to set up your respective analogies are true and thus the correct conclusion will arise the important point to note is the different directions both sides come from christians believe they know the truth and thus believe they have the right and duty to tell the truth to all christians can get offended if others do not believe what is self evidently to them the truth non christians do not believe this is the truth and get offended at them because they christians claim to know the truth the analogy does not depend on the premisses being true because the question under discussion is not truth but arrogance a similar analogy might be a medical doctor who believes that a blood transfusion is necessary to save the life of a child whose parents are jehovah s witnesses and so have conscientious objections to blood transfusion the doctor s efforts to persuade them to agree to a blood transfusion could be perceived to be arrogant in precisely the same way as christians could be perceived to be arrogant the truth or otherwise of the belief that a blood transfusion is necessary to save the life of the child is irrelevant here what matters is that the doctor believes it to be true and could be seen to be trying to foce his beliefs on the parents and this could well be perceived as arrogance steve hayes department of missiology editorial department univ of south africa p o box pretoria south africa internet hayesstw risc unisa ac za fidonet steve hayes p f n z fidonet org faq missiology is the study of christian mission and is part of the faculty of theology at unisa
soc.religion.christian	re src dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu darius lecointe writes i find it interesting that cls never answered any of the questions posed then he goes on the make statements which make me shudder he has established a two tiered god one set of rules for the jews his people and another set for the saved gentiles his people why would god discriminate does the jew who accepts jesus now have to live under the gentile rules god has one set of rules for all his people paul was never against the law in fact he says repeatedly that faith establishes rather that annuls the law paul s point is germane to both jews and greeks the law can never be used as an instrument of salvation and please do not combine the ceremonial and moral laws in one in matt christ plainly says what he came to do and you say he was only saying that for the jews s benefit your christ must be a politician speaking from both sides of his mouth as paul said i have not so learned christ forget all the theology just do what jesus says your excuses will not hold up in a court of law on earth far less in god s judgement hall pardon me for being a little confused but at the beginning of your second paragraph you say god has one set of rules for all his people yet at the end of the same paragraph you declare please do not combine the ceremonial and moral laws in one not only do i not understand where in the bible you find the declaration that there are laws ceremonial and moral but i am also unclear on whether you think it is bad to have sets of laws in the first place if it s bad to have sets of laws how can there be a ceremonial law that is different from the moral law and vice versa i would also be interested in your comments on the passage in i cor where paul teaches different rules for covering you head while praying depending on whether you are a man or a woman do you think the apostles can prescribe different sets of rules for men and women if so then why not for jews and gentiles also why did paul who was so opposed to circumcising gentiles voluntarily circumcise timothy mark
soc.religion.christian	re sabbath admissions of in article apr geneva rutgers edu clh writes re are you christian or pauline both sure why not but are you using paul to correct the words of jesus there is no doubt in my mind about what is sin and what is not at least not in this case jesus did not deal explicitly with the question of whether the law was binding on gentiles so anyone who dissolves even one of the smallest commands and teaches others the same way will be known as the lowest in the kingdom of the skies whereas anyone who keeps the commands and teaches them too will be known as someone great in the kingdom of the skies mat gaus are you an anyone or are you a no one why not assume that since jesus didn t say that his words apply only to jews that they apply to all human beings irregardless of race or sex why not assume that even though jesus did not mention your name still jesus was talking directly to you that s why i have to cite evidence such as the way jesus dealt with the centurion as to general jewish views on this i am dependent largely on studies of pauline theology one by h j schoeps and one whose author i can t come up with at the moment both authors are jews also various christian and non christian jews have discussed the issue here and in other newsgroups mat is clear that the law is still valid it does not say that it applies to gentiles does it say that it applies to you are you anyone or no one and yes i say that the specific requirement for worship on the sabbath in the ten commandments is a ceremonial detail when you re looking at the obligations of gentiles ex jps remember the sabbath day and keep it holy six days you shall labor and do all your work but the seventh day is a sabbath of the lord your god you shall not do any work you your son or daughter your male or female slave or your cattle or the stranger who is within your settlements for in six days the lord made heaven and earth and sea and all that is in them and he rested on the seventh day therefore the lord blessed the sabbath day and hollowed it note there is no specific requirement for worship here however i for one would not be so bold as to call these verses a ceremonial detail similarly circumcision don t many christians still practice circumcision i m not sure quite what else i can say on this subject again it s unfortunate the jesus didn t answer the question directly it s unfortunate that jesus didn t use your name directly or maybe jesus did are you somebody or nobody however we do know what the st cent jewish approach was how jesus dealt with at least one gentile and how jesus disciples dealt with the issue when it became more acute i m referring to acts more than paul given that these are all in agreement i don t see that there s a big problem if you don t see a problem then perhaps there is none as paul closes romans gaus in short pursue the ends of peace and of building each other up don t let dietary considerations undo the work of god everything may be clean but it s evil for the person who eats it in an offensive spirit better not to eat the meat or drink the wine or whatever else your brother is offended by as for the faith that you have keep that between yourself and god the person is in luck who doesn t condemn himself for what he samples on the other hand the person with doubts about something who eats it anyway is guilty because he isn t acting on his faith and any failure to act on faith is a sin as far as i know christians except specific jewish christian groups and maybe some of the sabbatarians both of which are very small groups do not practice circumcision on religious grounds in some countries it has been done for supposed health reasons but i ve not heard it argued that it is being done because of the biblical commandment clh
soc.religion.christian	re the arrogance of christians in article apr geneva rutgers edu caralv caralv auto trol com carol alvin writes vbv r d eeap cwru edu virgilio dean b velasco jr writes hold it i said that all of scripture is true however discerning exactly what jesus paul and company were trying to say is not always so easy i don t believe that paul was trying to say that all women should behave that way rather he was trying to say that under the circumstances at the time the women he was speaking to would best avoid volubility and cover their heads this has to do with maintaining a proper witness toward others remember that any number of relativistic statements can be derived from absolutes for instance it is absolutely right for christians to strive for peace however this does not rule out trying to maintain world peace by resorting to violence on occasion yes my opinion i agree that there is truth in scripture there are principles to be learned from it claiming that that truth is absolute though seems to imply a literal reading of the bible if it were absolute truth constant across time culture etc then no interpretation would be necessary i strongly disagree that absolute truth would not require interpretation that s because truth may be absolute but it may not be obvious like so many things the truth is always subject to misinterpretation i strongly suspect that we are reaching an impasse here which is why i deign from commenting much further sure the bible preaches absolute truths however exactly what those truths are is sometimes a matter of confusion as i said the bible does preach absolute truths sometimes those fundamental principles are crystal clear at least to evangelicals this is where the arrogance comes in to play since these principles are crystal clear to evangelicals maybe the rest of us should just take their word for it maybe it isn t at all crystal clear to me that their fundamental principles are either fundamental or principles now hold it i never said that christians cannot be arrogant indeed as many other christians on src have stressed before this is a trap that christians must always be wary about however this does not mean that if you believe in the absolutes established by the bible you are necessarily being arrogant a christian can believe that the word of god is absolute but he or she should not expect this to be immediately evident to everyone so i think that your position is the bible is absolute truth but as we are prone to error in our interpretation we cannot reliably determine if we have figured out what that truth is did i get that right not quite you say that according to my stance we cannot reliably determine what is true that is not what i said i say that as fallible human beings we cannot discern the truth with certainty the distinction is subtle yet important when a scientist performs an experiment he can claim that his results are reliable without claiming that absolutely no mistake whatsoever could have been made in other words he can admit that he could be mistaken without sacrificing his convictions nobody can establish what absolute truth is with certainty throughout the centuries philosophers have argued about what we can know with complete certainty and what we cannot descartes made a step in the right direction when he uttered cogito ergo sum yet we have not advanced much beyond that do you believe that other people aside from you exist do you believe that the computer terminal you are using exists if so can you be absolutely certain about that are you sure it is not some grand illusion of course you have no such assurance this does not mean however that for all practical purposes you can be certain that they exist so it is with christianity the most mature christians i know have deep convictions about absolute morality yet they acknowledge that there is a non zero probability that they are wrong this does not however mean that they should or do abandon these absolutes what s the point of spending all this time claiming and defending absolute truth when we can never know what those truths are and we can never or at least shouldn t act upon them what practical difference can this make as i said we can never be absolutely certain that we are correct this does not mean that we cannot be certain enough in light of the evidence to render all doubts unreasonable virgilio dean velasco jr department of electrical eng g and applied physics cwru graduate student roboticist in training and q wannabee bullwinkle that man s intimidating a referee my boss is a not very well he doesn t look like one at all jewish carpenter
soc.religion.christian	re questioning authority despite my trendy liberal feminist tendencies and the fact that i basically agree with what you are saying i will rebut dr nancy s sweetie writes chris mussack writes for all those people who insist i question authority why authorities sometimes tell people to do evil things people who just follow orders have tortured and killed others in very large numbers and protest their innocence afterwards the basic question here is how do i know what i am supposed to do this is true in every situation that comes up some people do not think about it at all and merely follow their impulses i claim that is just as dangerous as following authority i could site sexually transmitted diseases drug abuse all manner of criminal activity the savings and loan scandal car accidents eggs thrown at my house all are examples of people not following authority i could easily argue that in the evil examples you gave the problem was a leader not following his authority and doing what he wanted of course where is the top of the chain therein lies our search when your authority starts telling you to do things you should ask questions except for situations of pressing need i said shut the hatch because the submarine is filling with water any reasonable authority should be able to give at least some justification that you can understand i don t think it s as simple as you are claiming pressing need is ambiguous should i recycle or not realize that i have four kids who despite being very precocious of course are very tiring with their constant lack of understanding the tremendous knowledge i wish to impart to them just be sure to listen when authority answers ahh an ironic ending the irony i was implying in my initial pithy retort to the bumper sticker cliche question authority was that i was questioning the authority of the person telling me to question authority it seems there is a certain segment of society that finds meaning only in being different only in rebelling forsaking everything for the sake of freedom i question their integrity and fortitude there is another freedom that comes from doing a task correctly different people are at different levels of development in different areas part of the challenge of life is to find the right authorities to follow we can t know everything about everything often when learning a new skill or subject i will follow the teacher perhaps blindly only when i have learned enough to ask appropriate questions should i question him only when i have developed my skills enough should i challenge him once again how do i know when i get to those stages if you have to be told to question authority perhaps you shouldn t chris mussack a good comedian should never have to explain his jokes
soc.religion.christian	re the arrogance of christians i ve just read carol s response and i just had to get into this i ve got some verses which are not subject to interpretation because they say what they say they are peter timothy and galatians also based on the fact that jesus is the word incarnate and he judges people if they follow him see acts and john and that those who reject jesus teachings are judged by the very words he spoke see john then jesus words are true and do not need interpretation nor would it be just of god to judge based on his word if it had to be interpreted joe fisher
soc.religion.christian	re cell church discussion group in article apr geneva rutgers edu reid cs uiuc edu jon reid writes i am beginning an e mail discussion group about cell churches if you are please define cell church i missed it somewhere in the past when this was brought up before joe fisher
soc.religion.christian	re religious wars in article apr geneva rutgers edu fraseraj dcs glasgow ac uk andrew j fraser writes well you know that religion has caused more wars than anything else it bothers me that i cannot seem to find a satisfactory response to this after all if our religion is all about peace and love why have there been so many religious wars of course if this question was asked in a group dealing with economics the answer would be that the cause of war was economic my observations over the past years and not withstanding a little history reading beside is that while religious differences do play a part in many of the conflicts so does unfortunately race economics and any other items that identify one group of men as being different from another if we want to couch the cause of conflict in christian terms i would put it while christ died for our sins we are yet sinners while some individuals assume christlike natures most of us do not even come close i realize that in many ways this is a trite answer but i guess that it is my way of rationalizing man s constant or so it seems conflict jerry kemp somtime consultant internet kempja rcwusr bp com kemp ja tnd dnet bp com
soc.religion.christian	re prayers and advice requested on family problem julie it is a really trying situation that you have described my brother was living with someone like that and things were almost as bad although he left after a considerably shorter amount of time due to other problems with the relationship anyway the best thing to do would be to get everyone in the same room together optimally in a room with nothing breakable lock the door behind you throw the key out underneath the door just as far as the longest hand can reach you would like to get out after the conclusion i would imagine and hash things out more than likely there will be screaming crying and possibly hitting unless of course someone decided to bring some rope to tie people down some of the best strategies in keeping things calmer would include have each individual own their own statements ie i feel that this relationship is hurting everyone involved because or i really don t understand where you re coming from reinforce statements by paraphrasing etc ie so you think that we did this because of well let me just say that the reason for this was don t accuse each other it was your fault that happened find a common ground about something lampshades really are decorational and functional at the same time guaranteed in a situation like this there is going to be some gunnysacking re hashing topics which were assumed resolved but were truly not and someone feels someone else is to blame however this should be kept to a minimum and simply ask for forgiveness or apologize about each situation without holding a smoldering grudge the relationship really can work it s just a matter of keeping things smooth and even it s sort of like making a peace treaty between warring factions you can t give one side everything there must be a compromise breaks can be taken but communication between everyone involved must continue if the relationships here are to survive joe fisher
soc.religion.christian	re about eliz c prophet in article apr geneva rutgers edu jek cu nih gov writes rob butera asks about a book called the lost years of jesus by elizabeth clare prophet marriage if i remember aright base almost all their teachings on messages they have allegedly received by telepathy from tibet i should be surprised if the book you mention has any scholarly basis actually there was very little to the book first of all looking at the titles of her other books i would personally consider her to be engaged in a bizarre form of christian like mysticism heavily influenced by eastern philosphies great titles like the astrology of the horsemen however other than the chapter one into there s nothing original biased or even new this book it is basically a collection of previously published works by those who claim that there exist buddhist and hindu stories that christ visited india and china he was known as issa during the period from late teens to age conclusion the book actually lets you come to your own view by presenting a summary of various published works and letters all of which you could verify independently it includes refutations to such works as well therefore even if you think she is theologically warped this book is a nice reference summary for the interested rob butera ece grad student only sick music makes money today rice university houston tx nietzsche
soc.religion.christian	re atheist s views on christianity was re accepting jeesus in your heart first i thank collectively all people who have given good answers to my questions in my follow up to jason smith s posting i will address some issues that have caused misunderstanding jason smith jasons atlastele com wrote in article apr athos rutgers edu kempmp phoenix oulu fi petri pihko writes i also concede that i was doubly remiss as i asserted no reasonable alternative exists an entirely subjective statement on my part and one that could be invalidated given time and further discovery by the scientist i also understand that a proving a theory does not necessarily specify that this is how it happened but proposes a likely description of the phenomena in question am i mistaken with this understanding yes to some degree there was an excellent discussion in sci skeptic on the nature of scientific work two weeks ago i hope it did not escape your notice the correct word is likely there is no way to be sure our models and theories are absolutely correct theories are backed up by evidence but not proved no theory can be true in a mathematical sense however theories are not mere descriptions or rationalisations of phenomena it is extremely important to test whether theories can predict something new or not yet observed all successful theories science has come up with have passed this test including the big bang theory of cosmic evolution the theory of natural selection etc it does not mean they must be correct but they are not mere best fits for the data but if you claim that there must be an answer to how did the universe our spacetime emerge from nothing science has some good candidates for an answer all of which require something we christians readily admit to faith well yes if you want to believe in them this is not what science requires take a good look at the theory and the evidence see if the theory has made any successful predictions and use your reason disbelievers are not punished the fact that there are several candidates belies that none are conclusive with out conclusive evidence we are left with faith this is what puzzles me why do we need to have faith in anything my fellow atheists would call me a weak atheist someone who is unable to believe ie fails to entertain any belief in god yes i know that one can t believe without god s help luther makes this quite clear in his letter to erasmus i m afraid this does not change my situation a couple of paragraphs deleted summary we ask why does the universe exist i think this question should actually be split into two parts namely why is there existence why anything exists and how did the universe emerge from nothing deletions the question why anything exists can be countered by demanding answer to a question why there is nothing in nothingness or in non existence actually both questions turn out to be devoid of meaning things that exist do and things that don t exist don t exist tautology at its best carefully examine the original question and then the counter question the first asks why while the second is a request for definition no it is not although it does look like one this is a true dichotomy either something exists or nothing exists if nothing exists nobody would ask why if something exists it is possible to ask why but actually no existing being could give an answer imagine for a moment that the nobodies in non existence could also ask why nothing exists this is equivalent to my counter question why nothing exists in nothingness now why anything exists is equivalent to why something exists in somethingness this is what i meant with my tautology my apologies for the poor wording in my previous post i might add the worldview of things that exist do and things that don t don t is as grounded in the realm of the non falsifiable as does the theist s belief in god it is based on the assumption that there is not a reason for being something as ultimately un supportable as the position of there being a reason its very foundation exists in the same soil as that of one who claims there is a reason i do indeed think there probably is no reason for being or existence in general for reasons i stated above however they will still leave open the question why this and not that and this is where theistic explanations come in science cannot give reasons for any particular human being s existence we come to this either i am therefore i am or i am for a reason this is a deep philosophical question is determinism true or not also is god deterministic or not i tend to think this question has no meaning in his case if i am for a reason i ve yet failed to see what it would be from our perspective it looks like i exist for truly random reasons i just rolled two dice why did i get and how can i believe there is any better reason for my existence if the former is a satisfactory answer then you are done for you are satisfied and need not a doctor if the latter your search is just beginning yes i am satisfied with this reason until i find something better my years of christianity were of no help in this respect i have to admit but i am patient another answer is that god is the source of all existence this sounds much better but i am tempted to ask does god himself exist then if god is the source of his own existence it can only mean that he has in terms of human time always existed but this is not the same as the source of all existence this does not preclude his existence it only seeks to identify his qualities implying he exists to have qualities btw no it doesn t but i think an existing god cannot know why he exists for an answer to this question is not knowable of course this should not be any obstacle to belief in his existence i also have discovered science is an inadequate tool to answer why it appears that m pihko agrees as we shall see but because a tool is inadequate to answer a question does not preclude the question asserting that why is an invalid question does not provide an answer it is impossible to know unknowable things however the question why do i exist in particular is not an invalid question this is not what i said but from our perspective it is impossible to tell and i can t just believe in any given explanation instead of another especially since i found i was deluding myself my apologies i was using why as why did this come to be why did pre existence become existence why did pre spacetime become spacetime i think pre existence is an oxymoron there is no time outside of this spacetime except in some other universe and from that perspective our universe never was it exists only for those who are inside it but we come to the admission that science fails to answer why because it can t be answered in the realm of modern science does that make the question invalid no the validity of the question has to be discussed separately i think philosophy is of great help here what can be known and what is not knowable m pihko does present a good point though we may need to ask what do i as an individual christian base my faith on will it be shaken by the production of evidence that shatters our sacred cows or will we seek to understand if a new discovery truly disagrees with what god said and continues to say in his word this is a very good question in trying to answer this and numerous other questions that bothered me i finally found nothing to base my faith on i think it would be honest if we all asked ourselves why do i believe or why i don t believe petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics is the truth pihatie c finou oulu fi physics is the rule of sf oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu fi chemistry is the game
soc.religion.christian	re branch davidians info in article mar athos rutgers edu clitton opie bgsu edu writes from clitton opie bgsu edu subject branch davidians info date mar gmt i am looking for any information on the branch davidians send info to chad litton acs dept bgsu bowling green oh or e mail to clitton andy bgsu edu thanks in advance i don t claim to be an expert on the branch davidians but i might know more than most the branch davidian group led by koresh is actually one of two off shoots of a group known as the shephard s rod the shephard s rod now defunct as far as i know broke off from the sda church in the s the shephard s rod broke away from the sda church because they felt that the sda church was becoming weak and falling into apostacy they felt that they were the remnant spoken about in revelation about the koresh group koresh gained control of it in or once in control he made himself the center of it he proclaimed himself as christ koresh himself came from an sda background he was excommunicated as a young adult by the local congregation for trying to exert too much control over the youth in the church after this he joined the branch davidians they were are a survivalist cult this is why they had the stockpile of weapons food a bomb shelter etc they had no intent of raiding the us government or anything they were preparing for armaggedon and were putting themselves in a self defense position in my opinion if the atf and the fbi had left well enough alone we wouldn t have the blood of children crying out from the ashes in waco if you want to know about the shephard s rod you might want to visit the local sda church and talk to some of the older people they could give you some insight into where koresh got his theology tammy
soc.religion.christian	re assurance of hell in article apr geneva rutgers edu lfoard hopper virginia edu lawrence c foard writes a god who must motivate through fear is not a god worthy of worship if the god jesus spoke of did indeed exist he would not need hell to the reason for the existence of hell is justice fear is only an effect of the reality of hell boundary the catechist no teneis que pensar que yo haya venido a traer la paz a la tierra no he venido a traer la paz sino la guerra mateo vulgata latina
soc.religion.christian	re atheists and hell db n andrew cmu edu d andrew byler writes mark schnitzius writes literal interpreters of the bible will have a problem with this view since the bible talks about the fires of hell and such this is something i ve always found confusing if all your nerve endings die with your physical body why would flame hurt you how can one wail and gnash teeth with no lungs and no teeth one can feel physical pain by having a body which if you know the doctrine of the resurrection of the body is what people will have after the great judgement we look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come nicene constantinopolitan creed you will have both body and soul in hell eventually now this is getting interesting i was raised roman catholic before becoming an atheist so i have stated this creed you quote nearly every sunday until i was about for some reason i always took the resurrection in this statement to mean the resurrection of the soul but i guess resurrection does strictly mean the raising of the physical body i have some questions on this point i always thought that christians believe the descent into hell was pretty much immediate and that there are people burning in hell right now you seem to be implying that it will not occur until after the great judgement which i read as meaning the proverbial judgment day i was always a little confused on this point even when i was with the church maybe someone can clear it up for me where will my soul which by the way i don t believe in exist until that time will the new body i will have be created out of the same atoms that my body now is made of or will it be built from scratch my physical body now is susceptible to aging etc so i guess my new body will have to be radically different in order to be immortal so it can be tortured for all eternity since i will have a physical body i assume it will need a physical place to exist in where is this hell in the center of the earth do you think we could find it if we dig mark schnitzius schnitzi eola cs ucf edu univ of central florida there is not complete agreement on the details of the afterlife i think the most common view is that final disposition does not occur until a final judgement which is still in the future in the meantime some believe that people sleep until the final resurrection or because god is above time pass directly from death to the future time when the resurrection occurs while others believe that souls have a disembodied pre resurrection existence until then there are probably other alternatives that i m omitting the new body is generally conceived of being implemented in a different technology than the current one one which is not mortal paul talks about the mortal being raised to immortality and jesus resurrected body which is the first example clearly was not subject to the same kind of limitations as ours it is assumed that there are enough similarities that people will recognize each other but i don t think most people claim to know the details i don t think i d say it s the same atoms i d assume there would be some analog of a physical place but i wouldn t expect to find it under the earth or up in the sky i d suspect that it s in another dimension outside this physical world or whatever but again we have little in the way of details clh
soc.religion.christian	re wbt was re phone number of wycliffe translators uk poram mlsma att att com wrote having met peter kingston of wbt some years back he struck me as an exemplery and dedicated christian whose main concern was with translation of the word of god and the welfare of the people group he was serving wbt literature is concerned mainly with providing scripture in minority languages yes in fact peter is now at wycliffe hq in the u k and is a member of my church i would fully endorse the above peter is a very godly man with a passion for serving christ on one occasion he specifically addressed the issue of cultural interference in a sermon presumably from his experience of allegations directed at wycliffe perhaps i could find the tape michael davis cs mcd brunel ac uk
soc.religion.christian	re hell black sabbath hey i may be wrong but wasn t jeff fenholt part of black sabbath he s a major brother in christ now he totally changed his life around and he and his wife go on tours singing witnessing and spreading the gospel for christ i may be wrong about black sabbath but i know he was in a similar band if it wasn t that particular group how great is th love the father has lavished on us that we should be called children of god and that is what we are john grace and peace to all i ll see you all someday jenny jprzybyl scott skidmore edu
soc.religion.christian	re hearing sinners in article apr geneva rutgers edu jek cu nih gov writes on the question does god hear the prayers of sinners we need to distinguish if we say that he never hears the prayers of any who have sinned we make pointless all prayers by anyone born less than centuries ago but if we consider the prayers of the impenitent sinner of someone who says lord i want you to do this for me but don t expect me to change my way of life that is a different matter i have no doubt that god hears everybody s prayers however he does things his way i e things will happen only if it is his will now if the question really is does god grant everybody s wishes then you ll get a brutal shot of reality similar to when you didn t get that toy you wanted for christmas you just cannot expect to get everything you want in this world mark ashley disclaimer my opinions not harris marka gcx ssd csd harris com the lost los angelino
soc.religion.christian	re when are two people married in god s eyes in article apr geneva rutgers edu cs mcd brunel ac uk michael c davis writes i would like to get your opinions on this when exactly does an engaged couple become married in god s eyes some say that if the two have publically announced their plans to marry have made their vows to god and are unswervingly committed to one another i realize this is a subjective qualifier they are married joined in god s sight the way i read scripture a couple becomes married when they are physically married i e when they first have sexual intercourse some years ago an anglican synod was discussing the marriage canons and there was some debate on what actually constituted a marriage the bishop of natal whose wife of many years had died and who had recently remarried announced it must be consummated and looked like that cat that got the cream so i suppose he at least would agree with you steve hayes department of missiology editorial department univ of south africa p o box pretoria south africa internet hayesstw risc unisa ac za fidonet steve hayes p f n z fidonet org faq missiology is the study of christian mission and is part of the faculty of theology at unisa
soc.religion.christian	re latest on branch davidians in article apr geneva rutgers edu conditt tsd arlut utexas edu paul conditt wrote i think it s really sad that so many people put their faith in a mere man even if he did claim to be the son of god and or a prophet i ll pose a question here that s got me thinking what distinguishes true religion from cults i m speaking generally here not specifially about christianity jerry falwell was on good morning america on tuesday ostensibly to answer this question basically he said that true religion follows a message whereas a cult follows a person but then christianity is a cult because the message of christianity is the person of jesus so what distinguishes for example the branch davidian cult from the presbyterian church doctrinal differences don t answer the question imho so don t use them as an answer scott at brandeis but god demonstrates his the lord bless you and keep you own love for us in that the lord make his face shine on you while we were yet sinners and be gracious to you christ died for us the lord lift up his countenance on you and give you peace romans nasb numbers nasb there have been some attempts to characterize cult most commonly it uses characteristics involving high pressure brainwashing techniques etc but some people characterize it by doctrinal error in the end i m afraid it becomes a term with no precise meaning that s used primarily to dismiss groups as not worthy of serious consideration that doesn t mean that there aren t groups that do highly irresponsible things and have serious doctrinal errors but past discussions have not suggested to me that cult is a very helpful term clh
soc.religion.christian	re proof of resurection in article apr geneva rutgers edu andrew srsune shlrc mq edu au andrew mcveigh writes the bible s message is that we are to love all people and that all people are redeemable it preaches a message of repentance and of giving unfortunately all people have deceitful hearts and are capable of turning this message around and contorting it in sometimes unbelievable ways this is also a fundamental christian doctrine andrew how i wish this were true and how i long for the day in which it will be true but alas it is not true of history the bible does not have a message it has messages and some of those are messages of repentance and giving to turn the other cheek and do unto the least of these but some of the messages are the complete opposite like the isrealites order to wipe out other tribes including women and children down to cattle and punished severely when they were less than complete about the job like jews who are said to have cried out in matthew his blood be upon our heads and our childrens heads a verse quoted in every pogrom from the crusades to the holocaust have these been misunderstood i think not they have only been understood too clearly it is essential that christians grasp firmly the good the bible teaches the meek carpenter from nazareth is a potent symbol for how we should be his teachings we must take to heart but we cannot ignore the other material in the bible which is not to our liking and say those who live by that have misread it to say that is only to chose a point of interpretation and declare it normative such can be done with the same legitmacy by anyone instead we must let the text critique the text understanding that there is both good and bad in our sacred corpus we test all things and hold fast to that which is good p s i believe that a line of questioning like you presented is strangely enough compatible with becoming a christian certainly christianity encourages one to question the behaviour of the world and especially christians i praise god for jesus christ and the fact that we can doubt our beliefs and still come back to god and be forgiven time and time again at the risk of sounding heretical well ok more heretical i don t think that doubt is something which requires forgiveness it is something which requires introspection and reflection if that is a sin then there can be no salvation for doubt is an inescapble part of being human consider job his friends had no doubt whereas job had no doubt in himself but doubted the wisdom and justice of god when god finally did appear he rebuked the friends and had job make sacrifices for them to be a christian it to always have doubt or not to have honesty randy
soc.religion.christian	re the arrogance of christians i ve just read carol s response and i just had to get into this i ve got some verses which are not subject to interpretation because they say what they say joe just cause you say they aren t subject to interpretation doesn t necesarily make it so that s your interpretation of these texts they are peter timothy and galatians peter but know this first of all that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one s own interpretation for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will but men moved by the holy spirit spoke from god the study notes in my bible offer three possible meanings for verse apparantly it s not as clear to charles ryrie as it is to you timothy all scripture is inspired by god and profitable for teaching for reproof for correction for training in righteousness that the man of god may be adequate equipped for every good work galations for i would have you know brethren that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man for i neither received it from man nor was i taught it but i receieved it through a revelation of jesus christ when i read these passages it was not immediately clear to me what every phrase meant i had stop and think about the possible connotations of words what the intent of the author may have been wonder if the translator used the correct english word to convey the same meaning i had to interpret if you want to believe that your are not interpreting scripture as you read there s probably nothing i can say to change your mind but i think it s naive to think that our culture experiences education do not affect everything we read also based on the fact that jesus is the word incarnate and he judges people if they follow him see acts and john and that those who reject jesus teachings are judged by the very words he spoke see john then jesus words are true and do not need interpretation nor would it be just of god to judge based on his word if it had to be interpreted in college i took an entire course in biblical interpretation go to any christian bookstore there are scores of books on interpreting and understanding scripture if interpretation is unnecessary there are an awful lot of misguided christians out there wasting a lot of time and energy on it carol alvin caralv auto trol com
soc.religion.christian	re iterations of the bible ofm replies to a question on the multiplicity of translations of the bible as far as i know no christians believe that the process of copying manuscripts or the process of translating is free of error unfortunately this isn t true on another news group earlier this year someone posted that the king james bible was the divinely inspired version of the bible in english and was therefore inerrant all other english translations were from satan trying to deceive the body of christ a few years ago the pastor of a church i was attending showed me a poster advertising the availability of a certain man to address congregations very prominantly on the poster was the fact that the man used only the kjv the idea that the kjv is the english bible is more prevalent than many might think scott at brandeis but god demonstrates his the lord bless you and keep you own love for us in that the lord make his face shine on you while we were yet sinners and be gracious to you christ died for us the lord lift up his countenance on you and give you peace romans nasb numbers nasb
soc.religion.christian	re serbian genocide work of god d andrew kille writes are you suggesting that god supports genocide perhaps the germans were punishing jews on god s behalf any god who works that way is indescribably evil and unworthy of my worship or faith the bible does tell us that governments are ordained by god romans and furthermore god foreknows everything that would happen it is just to difficult for humans to graps with our limited minds the inevitablity of the sucess of god s plan and this is especially hard to grasp when we see governemnts doing evil however though they are doing evil and we should not cooperate with them when they do such it must be understood that what happens is what god wanted so as to lead to the final sucess of his plan to save as many souls from hell as is possible in short the slaughter in bosnia though deplorable in the eyes of god maybe then again they might be getting their just deserts now rather than later there are plenty of examples of god killing people for their sins onan in the old testmament for example and annias and spahira in the new is what he willed to happen so that his plan might be accomplished but don t forget it is not unbiblical for god to use one nation to execute his just judgement upon another the romans were used to fulfill the chorus of let his blood be upon our hands of the crowd in jersualem and chaldea was chastised by babylon which got israel which was inturn gotten by persia etc god does use nations to punish other nations as the bible very clearly shows in the old testament don t you remember the words of god recorded in daniel mene mene tekel peres babylon had been weighed in the balance scales of god s justice found severly wanting and was thus given over to the persians as their due punishment for their rebellion another exammple is the extirmination of the cannanites ordered by god as the task of israel the cannanites had been given their chance found severly wanting and the great judge carried out his just sentence accrodingly i could go on with more examples but i see little need to do so as my point is quite clear two things need to be remembered at all times it is not up to us to question why god has ordered the world as he has in his divine wisdom he made the world as was best in his eyes and like paul says in romans the clay is not one to tlak back to the potter the message of jesus christ is as follows repent now for the kingdom of heaven is at hand jesus christ did not allow any time for dilly dallying let the dead bury the dead come follow me there is not an infinite amount of time rather christ is passing by right now calling people to follow him and become fishers of men he does not say well alright you can call me back in a week and see if my kingdom fits in with your plans he said follow me his message is not i m just a sweety pie who would never hurt a fly you ve got all the time in the world and divine judgement that s only a fairy tale our great god and savior jesus christ titus is also the just and righteous judge of the world and it is not up to the defendants in the trial to be questioning his entirely just sentences of either chastisement or mercy d andrew byler does not he who ways the heart perceive sin and will he not judge men according to their works proverbs
soc.religion.christian	re atheists and hell in article apr geneva rutgers edu trajan cwis unomaha edu stephen mcintyre writes i don t have a problem with being condemned to hell either the way i see it if god wants to punish me for being honest in my skepticism that is for saying he doesn t exist he certainly wouldn t be changing his nature besides i would rather spend an eternity in hell than be beside god in heaven knowing even one man would spend his eternal life being scorched for his wrongdoings i see some irony here jesus was willing to go through torture to free you from the definite promise of hell based on adam eve s fall from grace but rather than allow him to stand in your place you would give up your redemption to stand with those who do not accept his grace god would rather have none in hell which seems to put the burden of choice on us of course this is all fictional anyway since you reject him also my former sociology professor once told us at the beginning of our term you all start out with an a what you do with that during the course of this term is up to you in the beginning adam and eve were given an a mark haefner
soc.religion.christian	re cell church discussion group then by that definition i would be in a cell church only here at iu not when the whole group gets together at indianapolis every week in attendance joe fisher
soc.religion.christian	re christians that are not church members here are some notes about what the church is to be like and some helpful ideas about how to choose a church colossians a jesus is the head of the body the church b you cannot say yes to jesus but no to the church ephesians a the church is the family of god b the church is based on the word of god only cornerstone christ foundation apostles new testament prophets old testament see revelation corinthians a baptism is when we become a member of the church as for the question of denominations a the bible teaches that there is only one church from ephesians romans corinthians b corinthians says that there should be no divisions in the church there should be no following of personalities in the church and in time their writings c there are so many churches today because of a problem timothy says that people will turn away from the truth and try to find a church that teaches a doctrine that suits their lifestyle hebrews a do not miss church b purpose is to encourage each other so we will remain faithful involved on a relationship level in the church c must come to all services another verse which is helpful is hebrews the church should be encouraging daily as it is their duty to do of course more standards apply timothy people in the church should be watching their lives and doctrines to make sure they both live up to the word entirely ie disciples acts the pastor does not come close to the apostle paul natural conclusion since the apostle paul talked with jesus directly face to face so if the bereans who were considered noble didn t take paul at his word but checked out what he said with scripture to verify his statements then church members are to do the same and verify the pastor s statements if they are not verifiable or valid in light of other verses then that group should be avoided as a church would ve made a wonderful suggestion to the waco group especially in light of matthew joe fisher
soc.religion.christian	re when are two people married in god s eyes i have a question for you all related to this jesus condemns divorce several times in the new testament and i have a hard time with this the catholic church as far as i can tell does grant annulments with the statement that the marriage never really existed in god s eyes please if i am mistinterpreting correct me however i have witnessed marriages where two people were very much in love but recognized that they were destroying themselves and each other by staying in a marriage and that the problems were due to personal childhood issues that had never been resolved i ask you is divorce justified in such a case they knew who they were what they were doing they were deeply in love but in the end it did not work out i must admit that i don t see jesus forcing them to live together or even condemning that they go and seek happiness with someone else later on opinions vera i am your clock i bind unto myself today vera noyes i am your religion the strong name of the noye midway uchicago edu i own you trinity no disclaimer what lard st patrick s breastplate is there to disclaim this is a commonly discussed question though it s been long enough that i ll allow it to be asked as you might expect there is a range of answers catholics and some others will say that divorce is never justified by the way in situations where someone is being abused or for other serious cause separation is allowed by all traditions that i know no one should be forced to stay in a situation where they are in danger others see it as a last resort in situations that have fallen apart badly enough that the best we can hope for is to choose the lesser of evils in some sense the difficult legal question turns out not to be divorce but remarriage that s because of jesus statement in mark and par as with so many other things this turns on your approach to the bible conservative protestants tend to see statements like this as having no exceptions more liberal ones are willing to make allowances for situations where a literal interpretation would lead to painful results it is noted that at the time it was possible for a man to divorce his wife almost on a whim thus a common explanation in the more liberal approach is that jesus was trying to protect people from this sort of thing not to establish an absolute rule to which there could never be exceptions catholics as is typical with catholic ethics take a theoretical hard line but allow for exceptions in practice through the process of anullment in the last discussion most of our non catholic readers seemed to accept with some reluctance that in some cases there might be no good alternative but there was a feeling that the church should often be doing a better job of helping people prepare for marriage and deal with problems that come up during it and that in a properly run church divorce should not be necessary clh
soc.religion.christian	re knowing god s will hi i don t know much about bible could you tell me the relations of christians with non christians in bible how should be the relations of christian nations with each other and the relations of christian nations with other nations who are not christians the other question is about the concept of religion in bible does the religion of god include and necessitate any law to be extracted from bible or is the religion only a belief and nothing to do with the government sides if for example any government or a nation is one of the wrongdoings according to bible how should they be treated is there any statement in bible saying that bible is a guide for every aspects of life thank you beytullah
soc.religion.christian	re harrassed at work could use some prayers i d just like to repeat and emphasize that because someone else is trying to make you feel horrible and worthless does not mean that you should feel that way although that s easier to say than believe sometimes remember god made you and loves you so he must think you re something special excuse the trite language here also the bully may just be someone who is mean for no reason not out of intentional mental torture has anyone else been harassed maybe they re just not talking about it i would have emailed but my reactions weren t fast enough and the post i m responding to didn t include your address just take courage and remember that all of us on the net are rooting for you take care vera hand over hand noye midway uchicago edu doesn t seem so much vera noyes hand over hand is the strength of the common touch drop me a line if you re in the mood rush hand over fist
soc.religion.christian	re am i going to hell in article apr geneva rutgers edu stoney oyster smcm edu stanley toney writes muslims i fear have been given a lie from the fater of lies satan they need christ as do us all stan toney stoney oyster smcm edu my opinions are my own you may borrow them just picked out this one point because it struck me why do you believe this muslims believe in many of the same things that christians and jews believe they believe jesus while not the messiah is a prophet this seems to me to be much closer to christianity than other religions are then again i tend to be somewhat liberal about others beliefs this also relates to the serbian ethnic cleansing question i have been waiting for condemnations of this and have seen very few how can we stand by and watch innocent people even people whose beliefs we condemn if this is the case and don t get me wrong the things fundamenalist muslims have to say about women make my blood boil be tortured raped the stories about that made me physically ill and killed jesus loves all not just those who love him back and he would advocate kindness toward them in the hopes of converting them if that s the way you want to put it rather than killing them i m sorry i got off the subject here maybe i should have used a different title i did need to get this off my chest however peace shalom vera shanti hand over hand noye midway uchicago edu doesn t seem so much vera noyes hand over hand is the strength of the common touch drop me a line if you re in the mood rush hand over fist i am also worried about this issue i ve made a posting under my own name earlier today i do not much want to discuss moslem beliefs here this isn t the right group for it their beliefs about jesus appear to come as much from the koran as the bible this means that while they honor him what they think he did and stood for differs in many ways from christian beliefs about him but moslem beliefs are an appropriate topic for soc religion islam as i m sure you know many christians believe that you must accept christ in order to be saved while stanley s comment appears to be anti moslem i would assume he would say the same thing about all religions other than christianity clh
soc.religion.christian	re am i going to hell in article apr geneva rutgers edu tbrent ecn purdue edu timothy j brent writes i have stated before that i do not consider myself an atheist but definitely do not believe in the christian god the recent discussion about atheists and hell combined with a post to another group to the effect of you will all go to hell has me interested in the consensus as to how a god might judge men as a catholic i was told that a jew buddhist etc might go to heaven but obviously some people do not believe this even more see atheists and pagans i assume i would be lumped into this category to be hellbound i know you believe only god can judge and i do not ask you to just for your opinions dear tim you say that you were a catholic but if you do not believe in the christian god i suppose that means the god of the bible and publicly state this you are in all probability not a roman catholic public heretics even those who err in good faith material heretics do not belong to the body of the church fundamentals of catholic dogma ludwig ott p all is not lost however as you still might belong spiritually to the church by your desire to belong to it as you said only god can judge the condition of a man s soul about judgment on the other hand st paul cor urges christians to judge their fellow christians following the apostle s teaching i judge that you should reconsider returning to the christian fold and embrace the god of abraham isaac and jacob he is the god who lives concerning what you were told about non believers when you were a catholic that is true as i have posted before vatican ii lumen gentium ii n teaches those who through no fault of their own do not know the gospel of christ or his chruch but who nevertheless seek god with a sincere heart and moved by grace try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience those too may achieve eternal salvation responding to your solicitation for opinions on the thinking processes of god the best i can do is refer you to scripture scripture is one of the best sources for learning what can be known about god stick with the best boundary the catechist no teneis que pensar que yo haya venido a traer la paz a la tierra no he venido a traer la paz sino la guerra mateo tr esp vulgata latina
soc.religion.christian	re the arrogance of christians in article geneva rutgers edu gt b prism gatech edu boundary writes dleonar andy bgsu edu pixie writes deletia sig p s if you do sincerely believe that a god exists why do you follow it blindly do the words question authority mean anything to you i defy any theist to reply deletia formalities i probably should let this pass it s not worth the time and it s not really intended for me but i couldn t resist a personal weakness of mine jerkius kneeus tragically incurable the foundation for faith in god is reason without which the existence of god could not be proven that his existence can be proven by reason is indisputable cf my short treatise traditional proofs for the existence of god and summa theologica not so i can prove that the existance of god is disputable by showing that people dispute it this is easy i dispute that god exists simple i missed your traditional proofs treatise but the proofs i remember from the summa theologic the ways i think it was were rather poor stuff the ontological argument is about a billion times better imho i would think you d want non traditional proofs considering the general failure of the traditional proofs at least the ones i know of i am thinking of the ontological argument the cosmological argument and the teleological argument those are the ones traditional enough to have funny names anyway now given that god exists and that his existence can be proven by reason i assert that his commands must be followed blindly although in our fallen condition we must always have some measure of doubt about our faith why this is the real question so to discuss it i ll assume god exists otherwise there is no heavenly authority to babble about because god is the first cause of all things the first mover of matter the independent thing that requires nothing else for its existence the measure of all that is perfect and the essential being who gives order to the universe logos please show this is the case i am familiar with the first cause argument and i ll accept for the sake of argument that there is a first cause even though i find some of its premices questionable the rest you ll have to show this includes that the first cause is god i next assert that god is all good got it i deny that god is all good so there if this is so then that which is contrary to the will of god is evil i e the absence of the good and since god can never contradict himself then by his promise of a savior as early as the protoevangelium of genesis god instructs that because a human adam was first responsible for man s alienation from the source of all good a man would be required to act to restore the friendship thus god became incarnate in the person of the messiah this isn t self consistent if humans must renew the relationship then god incarnate or not can t do it well unless you think god is human granted god made himself human but this is nonetheless cheating the intent of the statement is clearly that man has to fix the problem he caused god fixing it even by indirect means contradicts this now this messiah claimed that he is the truth john if this claim is true then we are bound by reason to follow him who is truth incarnate why also why assume said claim is true anyway if i claim to be truth are you bound by reason to follow me you next seem to have a problem with authority have you tried the united states marine corps yet i can tell you first hand that it is an excellent instructor in authority undoubtably do you mean to imply we should all obey the commands of the marines without question you seem to imply this about god and that the marines are similar in this respect if this is not what you are trying to say they please explain what it is you are saying as i have missed it if you have not yet had the privilege i will reply that the authority which is truth incarnate may never be questioned and thus must be followed blindly why why not question it even if it is truth we cannot know this certainly so why is it so irrational to question perhaps we will thus discover that we were wrong you assert that god is truth and we can t question truth but i assert that god is not truth and anyway we can question truth how is it my assertion is less good than yours one may not deny the truth oh i hereby deny i hope you ll agree is the truth granted i look pretty damn silly saying something like that but i needed something we d both agree was clearly true now you ll notice no stormtroopers have marched in to drag me off to the gulag no heaven lighting bolts either no mysterious net outages i seem to be permited to say such things absurd or not for example when the proverbial apple fell on isaac newton s head he could have denied that it happened but he did not the laws of physics must be obeyed whether a human likes them or not they are true they are certainly not true at least the ones newton derived are not true and are indeed wildly inaccurate at high speeds or small distances we do not have a set of laws of physics that always works in all cases if we did physics would be over already science is all about questioning this sort of truth if we didn t we d still follow aristotle i d generalize this a little more if you want to learn anything new you must question the things you know tm because you can always be wrong therefore the authority which is truth may not be denied even presupposing that truth may not be denied and may not be questioned and that god is truth it only follows that god may not be denied or questioned not that he must be obeyed we could unquestioningly disobey him how annoying of us but you have not connected denial with disobedience dan no nickname johnson and god said jeeze this is dull and it was dull genesis these opinions probably show what i know
soc.religion.christian	re was jesus black this subject seems to be incredibly inflammatory those who subscribe to biblical archaeology review will remember a spectacular letter battle set off when someone complained about a franklin mint ad bar is a great magazine but the contrast between the rather scholarly articles and the incredibly sleazy ads is extreme in this ad they were hawking a doll with a head based on the famous bust of nefertiti giving the face a typical doll pink complexion the letter complained about this as a misrepresentation on the grounds that nefertiti was a beautiful black queen this set off an exchange of hotheaded letters than ran for several issues to the point where they had an article from an egyptologist titled was cleopatra black the answer to the title is no she was greek i have to say that i hear a hysterical note in much of the complaining i personally have seen only one blond haired jesus in the national shrine in wash dc and i found it very jarring western representations vary enourmously but in general the image of is of a youngish male with dark hair and beard of a sort that can be found modulo the nose all up and down the mediterranean also if what i remember is correct the black madonna doesn t represent a person with negroid features it is black because of an accident joe buehler in the presence of all those marble statues one is prone to forget that greeks are rather likely to have black hair when one crosses the bosporus the situation breaks down completely are turks white how about persians or various groups in the indian subcontinent was gandhi white how about the arabs or picture nassar and sadat standing side by side and then there are the ethiopians those of a white racist bent are not likely to say that any of these people are white i e of the racist s race if i may risk a potentially inflammatory remark one undercurrent of this seems to be the identification of modern jews as members of the oppressor race considering the extreme dicotomy between medieval religion on the one hand and medieval antisemitism on the other i don t think that this jesus was white thesis ever played the roles that some hold it did representations of jesus as black or korean or whatever are fine it seems awfully self serving to insist that jesus belongs to one s own racial group c wingate the peace of god it is no peace but strife closed in the sod mangoe cs umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace of god
soc.religion.christian	looking for videotapes i have been looking at some of the recent productions on homosexuality and decided that i was interested in videotaped copies of these if anyone can help me out here i would very much appreciate it here is what i am looking for the gay agenda produced by ty beeson s group the report john ankerberg s recent series understanding homosexuality and experiencing genuine change james kennedy s special on homosexuality which aired this week and the portion of the previous week s program which discussed the gay agenda i will not pay money for copies since this is copyrighted material and that would be illegal i will pay for return postage if somebody can think of something they would desire in trade please let me know and i ll see what i can do oh btw i m watching the march on washington right now on c span other than the fact that i m generally repulsed by what i m watching i found one thing of interest general david dinkins just finished speaking and remarked that the new york city delegation consists of about people funny i don t see people out there period must ve been quite the party scene last night or maybe their exaggerations were just too much sean patrick ryan fsspr aurora alaska edu or sean freds cojones com oregon dr anchorage ak fnord abortion stops a beating heart disclaimer i didn t inhale either iditarod scoreboard men women read alt flame sean ryan i don t suppose you d be interested in hearing about the homosexual agenda from homosexual christians these portrayals of the homosexual agenda are regarded by some as being somewhat akin to trying to understand fundamentalist christianity by looking at the branch dividians you might also want to look at some outside evaluations of the groups claiming to change homosexuals when our church the presbyterian church usa looked into this issue even the conservative members of the committee were concerned about how real and long lasting the changes were i ll be interested to get reports from police and the press about the number of people participating today presumably we ll have a better idea by tomorrow clh
soc.religion.christian	re am i going to hell xopr maccvm corp mot com gerald mcpherson writes if you reject the claims of jesus and still go to heaven then the joke s on me if you reject him and go to hell that s no joke but it will be final if this is god s attitude then i ll think i ll go along with terry pratchett s religious philosophy oh i believe in god i just don t actually like the blighter p moorcockpratchettdenislearydelasoulu iainmbanksneworderheathersbatmanpjorourke clive p a u l m o l o n e y come let us retract the foreskin of misconception james trinity college dublin and apply the wire brush of enlightenment geoffm brownbladerunnersugarcubeselectronicblaylockpowersspikeleekatebushhamcornpizza
soc.religion.christian	re did he really rise in article apr geneva rutgers edu reedr cgsvax claremont edu writes the basic problem with your argument is your total and complete reliance on the biblical text luke s account is highly suspect i would refer you to the hermeneia commentary on acts in article apr geneva rutgers edu ata hfsi hfsi com john ata writes even if there was no independent proof that luke s account was valid i find it strange that you would take the negation of it as truth without any direct historical evidence at least that you ve mentioned to back it up the assertion was made unequivocally that no christian ever sufferred for their faith by believing in the resurrection luke s account suggests otherwise and in the absence of direct eyewitnesses who can claim that luke is mistaken then i suggest that this unequivocal assertion is suspect john the problem here is that you have taken one peice of my response without bothering to connect it with the other parts i have repeatedly noted that one needs to take the problematic historcity of acts and then examine the work of john dominic crossan and burton mack once you have taken the time to examine recent developments in biblical scholarship i think you will grasp more clearly what i am saying i think the original claim may have been somewhat more limited than this it was an answer to the claim that the witnesses couldn t be lying because they were willign to suffer for their beliefs thus it s not necessary to show that no christian ever suffered for believing in the resurrection rather the issue is whether those who witnessed it did i do agree that the posting you re responding to shows that there can be liberal as well as conservative dogmatism clh certainly this is an issue as i think the situation in waco shows most clearly if all that is required is that people are willing to die for a belief for it to be true then surely david koresh is the son of god no the spurrious arguement that the resurrection had to be true for people to be willing to die must be put to rest the other problem is that it is so monologocentric even if the resurrection was a big deal which it doesn t seem to have been for either q thomas or even john to a certain degree there are a lot of other things which the early christians could have been doing together that would have been worth dying for it is my belief that even the idea of a mixed race community which brought down regional national boundaries in the name of koinonia could have been enough for people to be willing to die radical communties do that e g jonestown waco warsaw etc but my original point was that roman persecution which is the only persecution we have documented proof of was not about whether a carpenter came back from the dead such a claim was not unique nor particularly abhorent to the roman or greek mind my point is that avoidance of military and civic duty i e emperor worship would have been much more problematic which has nothing to do with the resurrection at all when nero used christians as human torches to light up his dinner party it wasn t because the believe in a risen savior it was because they were supposedly involved in incest and cannablism the argument that christians were martyred for the resurrection just cannot stand up to critical examination randy
soc.religion.christian	any good electronic christian magazine hi i d like to subscribe to leadership magazine but wonder if there is one on disk instead of on paper having it on disk would save me retyping illustrations etc into a word processor it s just cut and paste if there are other good christian magazines like leadership on disk media i d appreciate any info with gratitude james
soc.religion.christian	survey faith vs reason the following is a survey we are conducting for a term project in a philosophy class it is not meant to give us anything interesting statistically we want to hear what kind of voices there are out there we are not asking for full blown essays but please give us what you can as i do not read these groups often please email all responses to me at shimpei leland stanford edu as my mail account is not infinite if you can delete the questions and just have numbered answers when you write back i would really appreciate it since we would like to start analyzing the result as soon as possible we would like to have the answers by april if you absolutely cannot make it by then though we would still liken to hear your answer if anyone is interested in our final project please send a note to that effect would like to have the answers by april if you absolutely cannot make it by then though we would still like to hear your answer if anyone is interested in our final project please send a note to that effect or better yet include a note along with your survey response and i ll try to email it to you probably in late may survey question have you ever had trouble reconciling faith and reason if so what was the trouble for example have you ever been unsure whether creationism or evolutionism holds more truth do you practice tarot cards palm readings or divination that conflicts with your scientific knowledge of the world does your religion require you to ignore physical realities that you have seen for yourself or makes logical sense to you basically we would like to know if you ever believed in something that your reason tells you is wrong question if you have had conflict how did do you resolve the conflict question if you haven t had trouble why do you think you haven t is there a set of guidelines you use for solving these problems thank you very much for your time shimpei yamashita stanford university email shimpei leland stanford edu there are three kinds of mathematicians those who can count and those who can t it seems to be that time of year please remember that he s asked for you to respond by email clh
soc.religion.christian	re sex education in article apr geneva rutgers edu bruce liv ac uk bruce stephens writes i d be fascinated to see such evidence please send me your article on the negative side however i suspect that any such simplistic link abstinence education decreased pregnancy contraceptive education increased pregnancy is false the us which i d guess has one of the largest proportion of non liberal sex education in the western world also has one of the highest teenage pregnancy rates please correct me if my guess is wrong i ve sent the article in terms of the group discussion i wanted to point out that non liberal education head in the sand is not the same as abstinence education we had non liberal education regarding drugs when i was a kid in the s which didn t do us a lot of good but abstinence education regarding drugs has proven effective i think joe kellett jkellett netcom com
soc.religion.christian	re doing the work of god hedrick cs rutgers edu writes down these distinctions in him there is neither jew nor greek there is neither slave nor free there is neither male nor female if moslems do not know him we may preach to them but we don t kill as a muslim spelled sometimes as moslem i must say that muslims strong ly believe in jesus refered in islamic text as eesau as jesus j esu s esu pronounced eee saw yah we knew him well ideally this war should not even be and even in a time of war our goal is peace we should try to refrain from viloating the peace of others as then if we do violate we will not have peace in ourselves i don t like this war eaither it is a conflict of territory croats muslims and serbs lived together before in peace the rallying point is race and im sure that there is a general out there who wouldn t mind being a president mohammad r khan khan nova gmi edu after july please send mail to mkhan nyx cs du edu from a christian perspective moslem ideas about jesus look rather seriously erroneous i ve generally tried to avoid discussions of islam in this group since soc religion islam is the right place for that thus i don t much want to go into detail i will simply note that moslems reject most of what christians regard as the most essential facts about jesus so at least from a christian perspective moslems don t know jesus again this is no justification for christians to hate moslems or to kill them i agree with you that this war should never be clh
soc.religion.christian	q the lost gospel just finished reading burton mack s new book the lost gospel q and christian origins i thought it was totally cool anyone else read it and want to talk randy
soc.religion.christian	re was jesus black jesus was born a jew we have biblical accounts of both his mother s ancestry and his father s both tracing back to david it seems reasonable to assume therefore that jesus was semitic as an interesting aside jesus being semitic makes him neither white nor black and in some sense underscores the point made earlier that his color was not important it was his message his grace and his divinity that we should concentrate on finally i would direct anyone interested in african involvement in the church to the account of the conversion of the ethiopian eunuch in acts chapter i think it s chapter this is one of the earliest conversions and the eunuch treasurer to the queen of the ethiopians was definitely african because ethiopia at that time indicated a region just south of egypt many also speculate that this man was not only the first african christian but the first black christian as well god bless charles campbell
soc.religion.christian	re christians that are not church members in article gchin ssf eng sun com writes over the years i have met christians who are not associated with any local church and are not members of any local church this is an issue that may be very personal but is important what does the bible say about this and how can we encourage our friends with regard to this issue this brings up an interesting subject that has not been discussed much and probably has not been studied much as some of you may be aware i ve posted a lot of articles lately on personality typing of which the mbti is a test vehicle to come up to speed just read alt psychology personality and or ask for by personality type summary file one observation is that people have significantly different personalities no question on this which seem to be essentially in born with respect to church attendance and participation some people thrive on this while other people have real difficulty with this because they prefer a more solitary and contemplative lifestyle that is they are de energized if confronted with excessive closeness to outside activities and lots of people of course this is measured by extroversion introversion my impression is that many churches are totally blind to this fact and create environments that scare away many who are naturally introverted there are many introverted characters in the bible btw i know i am quite introverted in preference and find the pressure by many churches to participate to meet together in large groups etc to be very uncomfortable knowing what i know now these churches have been overly influenced by highly extroverted people who thrive on this sort of thing btw there s nothing wrong with either extroversion or introversion both preferences have their place in the body maybe i should define extrovert introvert more carefully since these words are usually not used correctly in our culture the extrovert introvert scale is a measure of how a person is energized the following is excerpted from my summary energizing how a person is energized extroversion e preference for drawing energy from the outside world of people activities or things introversion i preference for drawing energy from one s internal world of ideas emotions or impressions hopefully this will elicit further discussion as to how churches can structure themselves to meet the real needs of the people who comprise the body of christ instead of trying to change people s personalities to fit them into a particular framework i m sure there are other aspects of how churches have not properly understood personality variances among their members to the detriment of all jon noring charter member infj club if you re dying to know what infj means be brave e mail me i ll send info jon noring noring netcom com jkn international ip fred s gourmet chocolate carlton place phone chips world s best livermore ca v mail who are you read alt psychology personality that s where the action is
soc.religion.christian	re when are two people married in god s eyes y in article apr geneva rutgers edu marka hcx ssd csd harris com mark ashley writes those with bibles on hand can give the exact chapter verse at the time jesus told peter that he was the rock he said whatever you hold true on earth is held true in heaven and whatever you don t hold true won t be true in heaven therefore with respect to marriage the ceremony has to be done by an rc priest no big parties required just the priest the couple and witnesses divorce is not allowed but anullments are granted upon approval by either the bishop or the pope not sure if the pope delegates this function maybe i m a little tired but i can t seem to follow the logic here if whatever is held true on earth is held true in heaven how is it that a priest rc only apparently is required in fact if i read the next verse correctly matthew i understand that for a marriage to take place only two are required to agree on earth touching one thing and it shall be done todd mark ashley disclaimer my opinions not harris marka gcx ssd csd harris com the lost los angelino unfortunately i haven t been able to find any completely precise statements about what is needed as usual the current edition of the catholic encyclopedia is frustratingly vague i do know that the priest is viewed as a witness and thus in some sense would not be required however part of the purpose of formal marriage is to avoid any ambiguity about who has and has not taken on the commitment the community provides support to marriage and in cases of problems are involved in helping to make sure that the people carry out as much of their commitment as possible thus marriage must be a public commitment the presence of a priest is required for a regular marriage where i m not clear is exactly where the boundaries are in exceptional cases valid but irregular ne temere says that no marriage involving a catholic is valid without a priest according to the oxford dictionary of the church and they imply that the new canon law retains this but i d rather see a more recent and authoritative source note that while a catholic priest is required for catholics the catholic church does recognize marriage between baptized non catholics as valid without a priest clh
soc.religion.christian	re the arrogance of christians to what follows our moderator has already answered the charge of arrogance more ably that i could have done so so i will confine myself to answering the charge of illogic in a previous article eugene bigelow ebay sun com geno says if i don t think my belief is right and everyone else s belief is wrong then i don t have a belief this is simply what belief means unfortunatly this seems to be how christians are taught to think when it comes to their religion this is how everyone in the western intellectual tradition is or was taught to think it is the fundamental premis a is not not a if a thing is true then its converse is necessarilly false without this basic asumption theology and science as we know them are alike impossible we should distinguish the strong and weak meanings of the word believe however the weak sense means i am not sure i believe tom went to the library but he could have gone to the track the strong sense means i am so certain that i use it as a basis of thought i believe that nature operates according to certain fundamental laws despite the fact that nature appears capricious and unpredictable christian belief is of the strong kind though christians may well hold beliefs of the weak kind on any number of theological and ecclesiological topics some take it to the extreme and say that their religion is the only one and if you don t accept their teachings then you won t be saved note that these are two separate ideas most hold the first view but the majority do not hold the second is is again a matter of pure logic that if christanity is true then hinduism for example must necessarilly be false insofar as it contradicts or is incompatible with christaianity and as a matter of logic vice versa it takes quite a bit of arrogance to claim to know what god thinks wants it is arrogant to claim to know what anyone thinks or wants unless they have told you christians believe god has told us what he thinks and wants especially when it s based upon your interpretation of a book most christians do not base their belief on the bible but on the living tradition of the church established by christ and guided constantly by the holy spirit the bible is simply the written core of that tradition the logic in the above statement is faulty in that it assumes two people with differing beliefs can t both be correct if depends what you mean by differing if i believe tom is six feet tall and you believe he weighs pounds our beliefs differ but we may both be right if i believe tom is six feet tall and you beleive that he is four foot nine one of us at least must be wrong it s all about perception no two people are exactly alike no two people perceive everything in the same way i believe that there is one truth call it god s truth a universal truth or call it what you will i don t believe god presents this truth i think it is just there and it s up to you to look for and see it through prayer meditation inspir ation dreams or whatever just because people may perceive this truth differently it doesn t mean one is wrong and the other is right thus you believe that there is a single truth but that no human being can find it you assert that anyone who believe that we can find absolute truth is mistaken in short you believe that anyone who does not share your belief on this point is wrong qed as an example take the question is the glass half empty or half full you can have two different answers which are contradictory and yet both are correct so for your belief to be true does not require everyone else s belief to be wrong here i begin to suspect that your real difficulty is not with the knowability of truth but simply with language saying that the glass is half empty is not a contradiction of the statement that it is half full it is the same fact expressed in different words the whole point of this phrase is to illustrate the different ways the pessimist and the optimist express the same fact it is of course quite true that different people may express the same belief in different words it is also true that they may fail to understand each other s words as expressions of the same belief and may argue bitterly and believe that they are miles apart great scisms have occurred in just this way and much ecumenical work has been done simply in resolving differences in language which conceal agreement in belief this does not mean in any sense that all beliefs are equally valid since some of the beliefs people hold contradict some other beliefs that other people hold after all obfuscations of language and culture in the expression of those beliefs have been stripped away some of the beliefs that some people hold must necessarilly be false and it is neither arrogant nor illogical to say so if i believe x and you believe y we may both be correct but if y is equivalent to not x then one of us is wrong and as long as we hold our respective beliefs we must each regard the other as in error mark baker the task is not to cut down jungles but aa freenet carleton ca to irrigate deserts c s lewis
soc.religion.christian	re was jesus black in article apr geneva rutgers edu shd andy bgsu edu sherlette dixon writes the people who post to this particular newsgroup are either too cowardly more accusations about a worldwide conspiracy against blacks since jesus was born in the middle east then i expect his human features to be similar to middle easterners at that point in time and since the camera wasn t invented yet we can only guess what he looked like for example with all the dinosaur bones we re digging up we still don t know if they were yellow polka dotted or purplish orange likewise i don t think anybody has a picture of jesus is there so our current image of jesus is our best guess okay so let s assume that jesus is black would that make you follow his techings cause if you follow his teachings skin color becomes a moot point anyway what counts more in your life your faith in jesus or his skin color as a human in the interest of historical accuracy however since jesus was from israel wouldn t his skin color be like any other jew i e fair skinned although probably heavily tanned from the desert sun experts in this area speak up cause i m not mark ashley disclaimer my opinions not harris marka gcx ssd csd harris com the lost los angelino
soc.religion.christian	re sabbath admissions of in article apr athos rutgers edu dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu darius lecointe writes faq and darius response deleted darius it s not clear how much more needs to be said other than the faq i think paul s comments on esteeming one day over another rom is probably all that needs to be said i accept that darius is doing what he does in honor of the lord i just wish he might equally accept that those who esteem all days alike are similarly doing their best to honor the lord i am myself an sda and i am in total agreement with what darius has to say i also worship on saturday to honor the lord your mention of esteeming all days alike imo has to do with the fast days observed by the jews but no matter how you interpret that passage i do accept your worship on sunday as being done in honor of the lord in contrast with what many of my fellow sda believers may believe to me though the bible overwhelmingly points to saturday as the day to be kept in honor of creation and of god s deliverance of the israelites from egyptian bondage to those who would attempt to point out that my observance of saturday is being legalistic this is simply not the case rather keeping saturday allows me a full day to rest and contemplate god s goodness and grace however i d like to be clear that i do not think there s unambiguous proof that regular christian worship was on the first day as i indicated there are responses on both of the passages cited similarly with cor it says that on the first day they should set aside money for paul s collection now if you want to believe that they gathered specially to do this or that they did it in their homes i can t disprove it but the obvious time for a congregation to take an offering would be when they normally gather for worship and if they were expected to do it in their homes there would be no reason to mention a specific day the idea was introduced to me once that the reason paul wanted the corinthians to lay aside money for the collection on the first day of the week was because that was when they received their weekly wages paul wanted them to lay aside money for the collection as first priority before spending their money on other things i do not have any proof in front of me for this though although it would explain why they would lay aside money in their homes instead of a meeting so i think the most obvious reading of this is that on the first day of every week simply means every time they gather for worship i think the reason we have only implications and not clear statements is that the nt authors assumed that their readers knew when christian worship was it would seem to me that you assume that the christians in the nt regularly worshipped on the first day i assume that the christians in the nt regularly worshipped on the seventh day but i agree with you that we only have implications because the authors did assume the reader knew when worhip was mark
soc.religion.christian	re when are two people married in god s eyes robert anderson randerso acad sahs uth tmc edu wrote i would like to get your opinions on this when exactly does an engaged couple become married in god s eyes some say that if the two have publically announced their plans to marry have made their vows to god and are unswervingly committed to one another i realize this is a subjective qualifier they are married joined in god s sight the way i read scripture a couple becomes married when they are physically married i e when they first have sexual intercourse e g the end of genesis quoted from memory for this reason a man shall leave his parents and be joined to his wife and they will become one flesh jesus also quotes this scripture referring to marriage if you read through genesis in particular you will often come across the phraseology man lay with woman and she became his wife this implies that she became his wife when they lay together i e at the point of intercourse compare this with jewish tradition joseph when he heard that mary was pregnant had it in mind to divorce her quietly but mary and joseph were betrothed not married i e they were in a binding relationship which required a divorce to get out of but marriage would not occur until mary and joseph went to bed together compare with christ and the church ephesians revelation the church is described as the bride of christ but the marriage of the lamb takes place when jesus returns i e we are in a binding love relationship with jesus but we are still looking forward to the time when the marriage will take place i see this as the spiritual equivalent of sexual intercourse because it represents the most intimate fellowship possible between man and god in summary engagement should be honoured as a binding relationship but it is not marriage a civil ceremony is not marriage either marriage occurs at the point when the betrothed couple go to bed together i don t mean to demean the civil or church ceremony ours was great i don t mean to be too pedantic historically i think i am correct in stating that the civil ceremony i e a marriage recognised by the state has only been around in the west since napoleon who introduced it to keep tabs on the people although i m ready to be corrected on that point this view obviously raises some questions what about those who have had sex with one or more partners without considering marriage are those people also married if it is true that marriage occurs at the point of intercourse is it necessary to be married in the eyes of the state i would say yes because this honours the laws of our nations in the west although it is not illegal to sleep together though unmarried in most western countries i believe that it is god honouring to proclaim our marriage to the state and to our friends before actually consummating our marriage its to do with our being salt and light and also to do with how people will perceive us i e it is culturally insensitive to declare yourself married without going through a civil ceremony michael davis cs mcd brunel ac uk and hast thou slain the jabberwock come to my arms my beamish boy
soc.religion.christian	re certainty and arrogance responding to the moderator in article apr athos rutgers edu alvin spot colorado edu kenneth alvin writes choosing what to believe and rely on are important areas of personal sovereignty what bothers me is when others suggest that in these matters of faith their specific beliefs are not only true to them but are absolute and should be binding on others it follows from this that god must give everyone the same revelation of truth and thus anyone who comes to a different conclusion is intentionally choosing the wrong path this is the arrogance i see a lack of respect for the honest conclusions of others on matters which are between them and god it is certainly reasonable to ask for some humility about our own ability to know the truth there are also different paths in some areas of practice but i d like to see more clarification about what you mean when you reject the idea of saying their specific beliefs are not only true to them but are absolute and should be binding on others if something is true it is true for everyone assuming that the belief is something about god history etc yes i agree what i m trying to point out is that in matters of faith i e tenets which are not logically persuasive one may be convinced of the truth of certain things through for instance personal revelation and its certainly fine to share that revelation or those beliefs with others and i don t think that its arrogant persay to accepts matters of pure faith as truth for oneself where i think the conflict arises is in assuming that where disagreements on beliefs arise all others must have been given the same truth and that god must reveal his truth to everyone in such a way that all would honestly agree i think this can lead to the conclusion that anyone who disagrees with you are being sinful or dishonest that they are rejecting something they know to be truth because it is inconvenient for them or because they wish to spurn god i would say that this is equivalent to assuming that all truths one holds are universal and absolute and the problem i see with this is that it negates the individuality of humans and their relationships with god this does not mean there is no absolute truth just that some areas of doctrinal disagreement may be areas where god has not established or revealed that truth comments criticism welcome ken alvin ucsu colorado edu i agree with you clh
soc.religion.christian	re easter what s in a name was re new testament double stan in article apr athos rutgers edu dsegard nyx cs du edu daniel segard writes that argument would be more compelling if it were not for the ishtar eggs and ishtar bunnies why mix pagan fertility symbols from the worship of the pagan goddess of fertility with biblical belief what would really be lost if all of you were to just drop the word easter and replace all such occurances with resurrection sunday would you not show up for services if they were called resurrection sunday services rather than easter services there is another way to view this the true celebration is easter the resurrection of our lord this has been true from the foundation of the world pagan practices are then either foreshadowings of the true celebration of the resurrection in which dim light was shone forth so that people would recognize the full truth when it was manifested or satanic counterfeits intended to deceive us so that we would not recognize the truth when it was manifested i don t believe the second argument because i believe in the power of the resurrection the fulfillment of the incarnation and our hope earlier or parallel ideas in other religions clearly are dim images of the truth of the resurrection as paul states we see through a glass darkly so do others it serves no purpose arguing about who has the darker or lighter glass the foreshadowings are not perfect so what our understnding of god is today imperfect for we are not yet perfected theosis is not a gift such that wham we re perfect larry overacker llo shell com lawrence overacker shell oil company information center houston tx llo shell com
soc.religion.christian	intolerance eternal life etc hi xian netters god bless you contents intro love your neighbor reaction to posts a purpose b eternal life i ve been reading this news group religiously for about a month sometimes it really gives me what i need spiritually at other times i get a little irate there are all kinds of people in every group and i take offense at intolerance it s awfully hard to tolerate such people oops i ve gone over my smiley quota already and it s only the second paragraph imho they should follow the commandment to love thy neighbor and leave the judging up to god specifically one s sexual orientation is part of one s self love the sinner hate the sin does not apply pay attention fundaligionists love your neighbor wether you like it or not i d be happy to get flamed endlessly and loose scripture quotation contests galore to defend this point i beleive this is correct btw love the sinner hate the sin is a slippery slope with hatred at the bottom incredibly chopped up post i won t even try to tell you where the deletions came out means jayne means dan johnson means eric in article athos rutgers edu jayne mmalt guild org jayne kulikauskas writes gsu uxa ecn bgu edu eric molas writes no free gifts of meaning i never quite understood how any god can just give your life meaning actually if he says you exists to do or be x that gives you a purpose if you care to accept it but is that the same thing but i digress i find that i am dissatisfied with the little purposes that we can manufacture for ourselves little in the cosmic sense even the greatest of the great pharos are long gone the pyramids historical oddities being worn down by the wind eventually to be turned into dust mankind itself will one day perish without some interconnectedness that transcends the physical without god it is all pointless in the end most people are able to live with that and for them little purposes success money power effecting change helping others suffice i suppose they never think about the cosmic scale or are at least able to put it out of their minds to me it is comforting to know that reality is an illusion that the true reality underneath the the physical is spirit that this world is a school of sorts where we learn and grow and our souls mature that gives a purpose to my little purposes and takes some of the pressure off it s not so necessary to make this life a success in human terms if you re really just here to learn it s more important to progress grow persist to learn to love yourself and others and to express your love especially when it s dificult to do so honest effort is rewarded by god he knows our limitations i will live forever with god ah now here we begin to diverge i will not live forever with anyone i don t think you will either but you are welcome to your opinion on the matter interesting theological question i have a feeling that most common perception of eternal life is way off base if i were to be imprisoned in the limited ego mind i am in now i doubt i would choose imortality it would get awfully boring two serious questions invitations to discussion what is the nature of eternal life how can we as mortals locked into space time conceive of it possible answer for the best we can do is metaphor analogy question a what is the best metaphor
soc.religion.christian	re can sin block our prayers in article apr athos rutgers edu jayne mmalt guild org jayne kulikauskas writes mike boulder snsc unr edu mike mccormick writes not honoring our wives can cause our prayers to be hindered prayers may not be hindered i peter one interpretation i ve heard of this verse is that it refers to the sin of physically abusing one s wife the husband is usually physically stronger than his wife but is not permitted to use this to dominate her he must honor her as his sister in christ this would therefore be an example of a specific sin that blocks prayer jayne kulikauskas jayne mmalt guild org i would be a bit more specific in looking at this verse in regard to blocking prayer i have trouble thinking that god would allow anything to block our access to him in prayer especially if we have sinned and are praying for forgivenenss i can see however how our prayer life might be hindered by our sin if we are concentrating on what is causing the sin or what has happened we may not be thinking about prayer thus our prayers are hindered by our own actions but i don t think anything can block the transmission or reception of prayer to god shalom len howard
soc.religion.christian	re atheist s views on christianity was re accepting jeesus in your heart soc religion christian in article apr athos rutgers edu trajan cwis unomaha edu stephen mcintyre writes norris athena mit edu writes for example why does the universe exist at all must there be a why to this i ask because of what you also assume about god namely that he just exists with no why to his existence so the question is reversed why can t we assume the universe just exists as you assume god to just exist why must there be a why to the universe whether there is a why or not we have to find it this is pascal s wager if there is no why and we spend our lives searching then we have merely wasted our lives which were meaningless anyway if there is a why and we don t search for it then we have wasted our potentially meaningful lives suppose the universe is billion years old and suppose it lasts another billion years suppose i live to be that is nothing that is so small that it is scary so by searching for the why along with my friends here on earth if nothing else we aren t so scared what if you woke up at a party with no memory and everyone was discussing who the host might be there might not be a host you say i say let s go find him the party s going to be over sometime maybe he ll let us stay because we recognize our own mortality we have to find the why well then buddhism confucianism taoism hinduism judaism zoerasterism shintoism and islam should fit this bit of logic quite nicely all have depth all have enduring values thus all must be true this is a good point but more of a good point for studying religion than ignoring it some christians disagree with me but it is worthwhile to study different religions and philosophies and glean the truth from them to quote of course out of context test everything and keep what is true chris mussack
soc.religion.christian	re the arrogance of christians in a previous article mhsu lonestar utsa edu melinda hsu says well the argument usually stops right there in the end aren t we all just kids groping for the truth if so do we have the authority to declare all other beliefs besides our own as false if i don t think my belief is right and everyone else s belief is wrong then i don t have a belief this is simply what belief means where does the authority for a belief come from nowhere for a belief is itself authoratative if i produce authority for a belief where will i find authority for my belief in the legitimacy of the authority in short the mind has to start somewhere by the way the majority of christians i e catholics believe in the authority of the church and derive the authority of the bible from its acceptance by the church mark baker the task is not to cut down jungles but aa freenet carleton ca to irrigate deserts c s lewis
soc.religion.christian	rom article ready requests a section of richard badenas book christ the end of the law romans in pauline perspective the section i have is on the contextual setting and meaning of romans in addition there are endnotes since the file is so long and because of other reasons i will take requests for the article personally of course i believe badenas insights to be true and quite damaging to the traditional augustinian calvinist view ted kalivoda tedr athena cs uga edu university of georgia athens ucns institute of higher ed
soc.religion.christian	re the arrogance of christians in article apr athos rutgers edu hayesstw risc unisa ac za steve hayes writes say for example there are people living on a volcanic island and a group of geologists determine that a volcano is imminent they warn the people on the island that they are in danger and should leave a group of people on the island is given the task of warning others of the danger they believe the danger is real but others may not does that mean that the first group are necessarily arrogant in warning others of the danger does it mean that they are saying that their beliefs are correct and all others are false but what if the geologists are wrong and these people are warning of a non existent danger analogies can only push an argument so far on both sides both melinda s and yours assume the premises used to set up your respective analogies are true and thus the correct conclusion will arise the important point to note is the different directions both sides come from christians believe they know the truth and thus believe they have the right and duty to tell the truth to all christians can get offended if others do not believe what is self evidently to them the truth non christians do not believe this is the truth and get offended at them because they christians claim to know the truth btw this argument goes for anyone i am not just bagging christians neither side can be really reconciled unless one of the parties changes their mind as melinda pointed out there is no point in arguing along these lines because both approach from a different premise a more useful line of discussion is why people believe in particular faiths personally i don t mind what anyone believes as long as they allow me mine and we can all live peacefully steve hayes department of missiology editorial department don lowe department of physics monash university melbourne victoria australia
soc.religion.christian	re accepting jesus in your heart i have been told that i seem to be very smug in my post i appoligize if anyone felt this way i did not at all desire to come across in that way i was trying to express that i didn t understand his logic and that i wished him the best in his life in christ s love bryan whitsell
soc.religion.christian	watt misquoted heath athena cs uga edu terrance heath writes i realize i m entering this discussion rather late but i do have one question wasn t it a reagan appointee james watt a pentacostal christian i think who was the secretary of the interior who saw no problem with deforestation since we were living in the last days and ours would be the last generation to see the redwoods anyway for the record on february at a house of representatives interior committee meeting rep james weaver d ore asked watt whether you agree that we should save some of our scenic resources for our children not just gobble them up all at once watt s answer was absolutely that is the delicate balance the secretary of the interior must have to be steward for the natural resources for this generation as well as future generations i do not know how many future generations we can count on before the lord returns whatever it is we have to manage with a skill to have the resources needed for future generations my source is a column by rowland evans and robert novak on the op ed page of the washington post for friday august yours james kiefer
soc.religion.christian	re accepting jeesus in your heart in apr athos rutgers edu jayne mmalt guild org writes gsu uxa ecn bgu edu eric molas writes firstly i am an atheist i am not posting here as an immature flame start but rather to express an opinion to my intended audience deleted we are just animals we need sleep food and we reproduce and we die i am glad that i am not an atheist it seems tragic that some people choose a meaningless existence how terrible to go on living only because one fears death more than life huh okay so i m not eric molas but even if that is how he feels about life i disagree with it life to me is definitely not meaningless it has precisely the purpose and meaning i choose to give it i go on living because i like living if i needed any further reason i d be free completely free to pick any reason that suited me that freedom can be almost intoxicating it s probably the closest i ve ever been to a religious experience i m very glad i am an atheist i wouldn t be anything else i feel so sorry for eric and yet any attempts to share my joy in life with him would be considered as further evidence of the infectious nature of christianity not unless in explaining your own subjective experience you also try to convert him or proselytize merely explaining the effects you personally experience religion as having on you is not infectious not unless eric is paranoid that is as a christian i am free to be a human person i think love choose and create i will live forever with god whatever floats your goat you sound happy enough that s fairly much all that matters right christ is not a kind of drug drugs are a replacement for christ erh pardon but it strikes me that sentence sounds reversible those who have an empty spot in the god shaped hole in their hearts must do something to ease the pain empty spot god shaped hole i hear such things a lot from theists never quite did understand what they were talking about i have no such emptiness or hole maybe some others do i wouldn t know but i don t and if i did i d seek help about it doesn t sound like a mentally healthy situation at all walking around with a hole in oneself thank you eric for your post it has helped me to appreciate how much god has blessed me i hope that you will someday have a more joy filled and abundant life well not having written that original post i don t know if it was intended to be interpreted in such a way but having reread it carefully i somewhat doubt it at least that s not how he gets across to me your mileage may vary disclaimer it s great to be young and insane
soc.religion.christian	hebrew grammar texts choose english or german greetings probably a tired old horse but maybe with a slightly different twist i wanted to know if there are any good english language texts for learning ancient hebrew and how these compare with german educational texts qualitywise if anybody has an idea i can t figure out if i should buy one here for later study or wait until i get back to the u s something i find interesting about studying theology in germany is the fact that the students get their ancient language learning out of the way early i m not a theology student but i spend a lot of time with such folks in their careers they take the first two years or so to just do greek and latin and hebrew possibly aramaic too who knows what s it like at divinity schools or seminaries in the states is there a lot of language instruction done i really don t have a basis for comparison regards phil philip sells is anything too hard for the lord k hobbes kzoo edu gen for better of worse we don t have the tradition of classical education in the u s so generally if a seminary believes students should know greek they have to teach it it s common for seminaries to require at least a semester each of hebrew and greek though of course more is required for serious scholarship clh
soc.religion.christian	re cause trajan cwis unomaha edu stephen mcintyre writes norris athena mit edu writes some stuff deleted fortunately for the convenience of us believers there is a class of questions that can never be reduced away by natural science for example why does the universe exist at all must there be a why to this i ask because of what you also assume about god namely that he just exists with no why to his existence so the question is reversed why can t we assume the universe just exists as you assume god to just exist why must there be a why to the universe remainder of message deleted pardon me for replying to only a portion of your message the reason we can say god just exists and can t say the universe just exists is because the universe is a natural realm and is subject to natural laws in general and the law of cause and effect in particular that is we observe in nature that every cause has an effect and every effect was produced by a cause the existence of the natural realm as an effect itself cannot be its own cause it must therefore have a supernatural cause god on the other hand is a supernatural being and is therefore not subject to such natural laws as the law of cause and effect as a supernatural being god s eternal existence does not imply a previous cause the way the existence of a physical natural cosmos does thus those who believe in the supernatural have a valid basis for accepting the existence of uncaused phenomena such as the eternal god whereas those who deny the existence of the supernatural are faced with the dilemma of a physical universe whose very nature shows that it is not sufficient to explain its own existence this is of course an oversimplification of a complex topic but i just wanted to clarify some important differences between the supernatural god and the natural the universe since you seem to mistake them as being interchangeable mark
soc.religion.christian	re accepting jeesus in your heart in article apr athos rutgers edu gsu uxa ecn bgu edu eric molas writes we are just animals we need sleep food and we reproduce and we die i agree we need sleep etc but i disagree we are just animals that statement is a categorical negative it s like saying there are no polkadoted elephants it may be true but one would have to be omniscient to know for sure rob steele in coming to understand anything mit lincoln laboratory we are rejecting the facts as they wood st m are for us in favour of the facts lexington ma as they are c s lewis
soc.religion.christian	re atheist s views on christianity was re accepting jeesus in your heart in article apr athos rutgers edu trajan cwis unomaha edu stephen mcintyre writes well then buddhism confucianism taoism hinduism judaism zoerasterism shintoism and islam should fit this bit of logic quite nicely all have depth all have enduring values thus all must be true yep there s truth in all those religions even in science christianity doesn t claim to know it all it does claim certain things are true though that contradict other religions truth claims so they can t all be true rob steele in coming to understand anything mit lincoln laboratory we are rejecting the facts as they wood st m are for us in favour of the facts lexington ma as they are c s lewis
soc.religion.christian	re when are two people married in god s eyes i think it was lewis who said that in a wedding it s the principals that marry each other the church and the state are present merely as witnesses rob steele in coming to understand anything mit lincoln laboratory we are rejecting the facts as they wood st m are for us in favour of the facts lexington ma as they are c s lewis this is not just lewis it s a summary of standard catholic theology however this doesn t mean that the presence of those witnesses is optional except in odd situations like the standard desert island clh
soc.religion.christian	re some questions from a new christian bach udel edu steven r hoskins writes i realize i am very ignorant about much of the bible and quite possibly about what christians should hold as true this i am trying to rectify by reading the bible of course but it would be helpful to also read a good interpretation commentary on the bible or other relevant aspects of the christian faith one of my questions i would like to ask is can anyone recommend a good reading list of theological works intended for a lay person i won t even recommend books from my congregation what you ask sounds attractive but it is dangerous as a new christian you don t want to be contaminated with other people s interpretation steep your self in scripture and discuss with other christians read if your must but remember that what other people write is their interpretation god has promised to give you light so ask for it i have another question i would like to ask i am not yet affiliated with any one congregation aside from matters of taste what criteria should one use in choosing a church i don t really know the difference between the various protestant denominations don t wait too long before attaching yourself to church just remember to always compare what they teach you with scripture like the bereans did darius
soc.religion.christian	when are two people married listowner i have sent this to mr anderson privately post it only if you think it of general interest here is a copy of something i wrote for another list you may find it relevant a listmember asks what makes common law marriages wrong a common law marriage is not necessarily wrong in itself there is nothing in the bible old or new testament about getting married by a preacher or by a priest jewish or christian and in fact jewish priests have never had any connection with weddings there is a common notion that the marriage is performed by the clergyman in fact the traditional christian view at least in the west is that the bride and groom are the ministers of the marriage and that the clergyman is there only as a witness however the essential ingredient of a marriage is mutual commitment two persons are considered to be married if and only if they have bound themselves by mutual promises to live together as husband and wife forsaking all others till death do them part the reason why those who have reason to be concerned about who is married to whom have always insisted on some kind of public ceremony is in order that society and the couple themselves may be clear about whether a commitment has been made suppose that we do away with the public ceremony the standard vows etc instead we have a man and a woman settling down to live together after a year or so the man says to the woman hey honey it was great while it lasted but i think it s time to move on she says what are you talking about he says i am leaving you and looking for someone prettier and younger she says but you can t we are married he says what are you talking about we never got married she says i remember distinctly what you said to me the night we first made love you said my love for you is as deep as the ocean as eternal as the stars as long as i live i am yours utterly and completely when i lie on my deathbed my last feeble breath will utter your name my he says oh that that was just rhetoric just poetry when a man is in a romantic mood he is bound to say all kinds of silly things like that you mustn t take them literally and that is why you have an insistence on a formal ceremony that is a matter of public record the church insists on it because it is her duty among other things to give moral advice and you cannot give a man moral advice about his relations with a woman if you have no idea who is married to whom if anybody and vice versa the state insists on it since the state has a concern with property rights with child care and support and therefore needs to know who has made what commitments to whom prospective fathers in law insist on it because they don t want their daughters seduced and abandoned prospective spouses insist on it because they want to make sure they know whether what they are hearing is a real commitment or just poetry and persons making vows themselves insist on making them formally and publicly in order that they may be clear in their own minds about what it is that they are doing and may know themselves that this is not just rhetoric this is the real thing hence the insistence on a formal public explicit avowal of the marriage commitment the church goes further and insists that when christians marry a clergyman shall be present at the wedding and record the vows on behalf of the church not because it is impossible to have a valid wedding without a clergyman but in order to make sure that the couple understand what the christian teaching about marriage is and that they are in fact promising to be married in a christian sense the church also prefers a standard marriage vow and is wary of letting couples write their own vows for much the same reason that lawyers prefer standard terminology when they draw up a will or a contract certain language has been repeatedly used in wills and one can be sure how the courts will interpret it try to say the same thing in your own words and you may find that the probate judge s interpretation of them is not at all what you intended similarly the church prefers to avoid endless debates about whether you are my main squeeze and i am here for the long haul do in fact cover the same territory as forsaking all others and till death do us part this topic has come up on the list before is there any topic that hasn t one listmember was asking if a couple love each other and are living together isn t that marriage in the eyes of god eventually someone asked in that case what is their status if they break up is that the moral equivalent of getting a divorce are they in a relationship that god forbids either of them to walk out on the original questioner said good grief i never thought of that in fact there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that someone who says we don t need a piece of paper or a ceremony in front of a judge or a preacher in order to show that we love each other is trying to have it both ways to have the advantages of marriage plus the option of changing his mind with a minimum of bother at this point someone may say none of this applies to me and my mate we are quite clear on the fact that we have assumed a lifelong commitment for better or worse forsaking all others till death us do part so in our case no ceremony is needed to this my reply would be the reason for requiring a driver s license is to keep dangerous drivers off the road what is wrong in itself is not the existence of unlicensed drivers but the existence of dangerous drivers however testing and licensing drivers is an obvious and reasonable means of pursuing the goal of reducing the number of dangerous drivers on the road therefore the state rightly makes and enforces such laws and you the citizen have a positive moral obligation to refrain from driving without a license no matter how much of a hotshot behind the wheel you think you are back to the original question we have a listmember who knows a couple who have been living together for around years he asks at what point did they stop fornicating and start being married i answer at the point if any where they both definitely and explicitly accepted an obligation to be faithful to each other for better or worse as long as they both lived if they have accepted such an obligation what are their reasons for not being willing to declare it in front of say a justice of the peace yours james kiefer
soc.religion.christian	book review wanted i m interested if anyone out here can point me towards a review of the following book in any scholarly christian journal whether it be conservative or liberal protestant or catholic the lost years of jesus documentary evidence for jesus year journey to the east by elizabeth clare prophet supposedly this is a theory that was refuted in the past and she has re examined it i thought this was just another novel book but i saw it listed as a text for a class in religious studies here also the endorsements seem to come from some credible sources so i m wondering if scholars have reviewed it or anyone on the net for that matter rob butera ece grad student only sick music makes money today rice university houston tx nietzsche
soc.religion.christian	re did he really rise frank i got your mailing on early historical references to christianity i d like to respond but i lost your address please mail me scott oser
soc.religion.christian	bible unsuitable for new christians a new christian wrote that he was new to the faith and learning about it by reading the bible of course i am not at all sure this is the best path to follow while the bible is for christians the word of god the revelation of god is jesus christ and the chief legacy of this revalation is the church i am not recommending any one denommination but i do recommend finding a comfortable christian congregation in which to develop your faith rather than just reading the bible this does not mean that the bible should not be read although i would stick to the gospels epistles and psalms and avoid the book of revelation altogether until you are with friends you are comfortable with i am sure that mistakenly fervent projects to read the entire bible have frequently bogged down with a remarkable lack of fervour somewhere in the middle of leviticus or for the really sturdy somewhere in chronicles the point is that the bible is their to illustrate the faith of christians but does not provide the totality of that faith vital beliefs of virtually all christians are simply not mentioned the trinity the duality of natures in christ types of church organization all these beliefs and practices have developed from the lived experience of the christian people an experience lived one hopes in the spirit as such the bible i think is better studies in the context of a congregation and the context of other reading following up on a suggestion of an old confessor of mine i would even suggest that a good novel is a good way to reflect on the christian life most novels of any profundity are actually discussing the nature of good and evil in the human heart my own induction into the christian faith was brought about after grace through reading graham greene the power and the glory and the poetry of gerard manley hopkins i would also recommend graham greene s monsignor quixote and any novel by iris murdoch the last is not even a christian but such is her insistence on the need for the good life that frankly i often am more uplifted and god directed after reading her than after reading many parts of the bible and that after all is what being a christian is all about letting your soul and your life be in some way directed towards the infinite represented to us by the person of jesus christ paul halsall halsall murray fordham edu
soc.religion.christian	re nature of god re environmentalism and paganism in a previous article mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington says in article apr athos rutgers edu heath athena cs uga edu terrance heath writes that is not necessarily unorthodox when christians call god father we are using a metaphor the bible in one place refers to god as being like a mother god is neither a father nor a mother in the literal sense god has some of the attributes of both the father metaphor is usually used because for most people at most times it is the less misleading of the two possibilities i don t know which passage you are refering to but the passage i have often seen cited as an example of a mother image of god is isaiah can a woman forget her sucking child that she should have no compassion on the son of her womb even these may forget yet i will not forget you this passage is not a mother image of god at all the mother here is the image of the best human constancy can show and it is contrasted with the constancy of god the mother figure here represents mankind not god mark baker the task is not to cut down jungles but aa freenet carleton ca to irrigate deserts c s lewis luke o jerusalem jerusalem killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you how often would i have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings and you would not clh
soc.religion.christian	re sspx schism larry l overacker writes responding to simon i may be interesting to see some brief selections posted to the net my understanding is that sspx does not consider itself in schism or legitimately excommunicated but that s really beside the point what does the roman catholic church say excommunication can be real apart from formal excommunication as provided for in canon law here s some of the theology involved for the interested there is confusion over this issue of the sspx s schism often the basic problem is lack of an ability to distinguish between true obedience false obedience disobedience schism take the various classifications of obedience first there are important elements involved here for my purposes a command the response made to the command as far as the command goes commands can be legitimate such as the pope ordering catholics to not eat meat on fridays or they can be illegitimate such as the pope ordering catholics to worship the god dagon when every other full moon comes around as far as the response to a command goes it can be to refuse to do what is commanded or to comply making a table there are thus possibilites command response name legitimate comply true obedience illegitimate refuse true obedience legitimate refuse disobedience illegitimate comply false obedience so now you see where my classifications of obedience come from obedience is not solely a matter of compliance refusal the nature of the commands must also be taken into account it is not enough to consider someone s compliance or refusal and then say whether they are obedient or disobedient you also have to take into consideration whether the commands are good or bad in my example if the pope commands all catholics to worship the god dagon and they all refuse they aren t being disobedient at all as far as the society of saint pius x goes they are certainly refusing to comply with certain things the pope desires but that alone is insufficient to allow one to label them disobedient you also have to consider the nature of the papal desires and there s the rub sspx says the popes since vatican ii have been commanding certain very bad things for the church the popes have of course disagreed so where are we are we in another arian heresy complete with weak popes or are the sspx priests modern martin luthers well the only way to answer that is to examine who is saying what and what the traditional teaching of the church is the problem here is that very few catholics have much of an idea of what is really going on and what the issues are the religion of american catholics is especially defective in intellectual depth you will never read about the issues being discussed in the catholic press in this country on the other hand one italian catholic magazine i get days has had interviews with the superior general of the society of saint pius x many catholics will decide to side with the pope there is some soundness in this because the papacy is infallible so eventually some pope will straighten all this out but on the other hand there is also unsoundness in this in that in the short term the popes may indeed be wrong and such catholics are doing nothing to help the situation by obeying them where they re wrong in fact if the situation is grave enough they sin in obeying him at the very least they re wasting a great opportunity because they are failing to love christ in a heroic way at the very time that he needs this badly schism let s move on to schism what is it schism is a superset of disobedience refusal to obey a legitimate command all schismatics are disobedient but it s a superset so it doesn t work the other way around not all disobeyers are schismatics the mere fact that the sspx priests don t comply with the holy father s desires doesn t make them schismatics so what is it that must be added to disobedience to constitute a schism maybe this something else makes the sspx priests schismatics you must add this the rejection of the right to command look in any decent reference on catholic theology and that s what you ll find the distinguishing criterion of schism is rejection of the right to command here s what the catholic encyclopedia says for example not every disobedience is a schism in order to possess this character it must include besides the trangression of the commands of superiors denial of their divine right to command from the ce article schism is the society of saint pius x then schismatic the answer is a clear no they say that the pope is their boss they pray for him every day and that s all that matters as far as schism goes what all this boils down to is this if we leave aside the consideration of the exact nature of their objections their position is a legitimate one as far as the catholic theology of obedience and schism goes they are resisting certain papal policies because they think that they are clearly contrary to the traditional teaching of the papacy and the best interests of the church in fact someone who finds himself in this situation has a duty to resist now what is the stance of rome on all this well if you read the holy father s motu proprio ecclesia dei you can find out it s the definitive document on the subject a motu proprio is a specifically papal act it s not the product of a roman congregation a letter that the pope has possibly never even read it s from the pope himself his boss is god there s no one else to complain to in this document the holy father says among other things the episcopal consecrations performed by archbishop lefebvre constituted a schismatic act archbishop lefebvre s problem was a misunderstanding of the nature of tradtion both are confusing i fail to see the logic of the pope s points as far as the episcopal consecrations go i read an interesting article in a translation of the italian magazine si si no no it all gets back to the question of jurisdiction if episcopal consecrations imply rejection of the pope s jurisdiction then they would truly constitute a schismatic act justifying excommunication under the current code of canon law but my problem with this is this according to the traditional theology of holy orders episcopal consecration does not confer jurisdiction it only confers the power of order the ability to confect the sacraments jurisdiction must be conferred by someone else with the power to confer it such as the pope the society bishops knowing the traditional theology quite well take great pains to avoid any pretence of jurisdiction over anyone they simply confer those sacraments that require a bishop the si si no no article was interesting in that it posited that the reason that the pope said what he did is that he has a novel post vatican ii idea of holy orders according to this idea episcopal consecration does confer jurisdiction i lent the article to a friend unfortunately so can t tell you more i believe they quoted the new code of canon law in support of this idea the pope s thinking on this point remains a great puzzle to me there s no way there is a schism according to traditional catholic theology so why does the pope think this as far as the points regarding the nature of tradition goes here s the passage in question the root of this schismatic act can be discerned in an incomplete and contradictory notion of tradtion incomplete because it does not take sufficiently into the account the living character of tradition which as the second vatican council clearly taught comes from the apostles and progresses in the church with the help of the holy spirit there is a growth in insight into the realities and words that are being passed on this comes about in various ways it comes through the contemplation and study of believers who ponder these things in their hearts it comes from the intimate sense of spiritual realities which they experience and it comes from the preaching of those who have received along with their right of succession in the espiscopate the sure charism of truth but especially contradictory is a notion of tradition which opposes the universal magisterium of the church possessed by the bishop of rome and the body of bishops it is impossible to remain faithful to the tradition while breaking the ecclesial bond with him to whom in the person of the apostle peter christ himself entrusted the ministry of unity in his church papal motu proprio ecclesia dei july it seems to me that the holy father is making two points here that can be simplified to the following vatican council ii has happened i am the pope the argument being that either case is sufficient to prove that archbishop lefebvre must be wrong because he disagrees with them this is weak to say the least it would have helped clarify things more if the pope had addressed archbishop lefebvre s concerns in detail what is john paul ii s stand on the social kingship of christ as taught by gregory xvi pius ix leo xiii pius xi and pius xii for example are we supposed to ignore what all these popes said on the subject i don t know what the future will hold but the powers that be in the sspx are still talking with rome and trying to straighten things out many people would prefer to call a justified refusal to obey justified disobedience or even obeying god rather than man calling a refusal to obey obedience puts us into a sort of alice in wonderland world where words mean whatever we want them to mean similarly schism indicates a formal break in the church if the pope says that a schism exists it seems to me that by definition it exists it may be that the pope is on the wrong side of the break that there is no good reason for the break to exist and that it will shortly be healed but how can one deny that it does in fact exist it seems to me that you are in grave danger of destroying the thing you are trying to reform the power of the papacy what good will it do you if you become reconciled to the the pope in the future but in the process you have destroyed his ability to use the tools of church discipline it s one thing to hold that the pope has misused his powers and excommunicated someone wrongly it s something else to say that his excommunication did not take effect and the schism is all in his imagination that means that acts of church discipline are not legal tools but acts whose validity is open to debate generally it has been liberal catholics who have had problems with the pope while they have often objected to church sanctions generally they have admitted that the sanctions exist you are now opening the door to people simply ignoring papal decisions claiming to be truly obeying by disobeying and to be in communion while excommunicated this would seem to be precisely the denial of divine right to command that you say defines schism clh
soc.religion.christian	re quality of catholic liturgy tim rolfe writes without active participation if you know the latin one really beautiful way to hear the passion is it s being chanted by three deacons the narrator chants in the middle baritone range jesus chants in the bass and others directly quoted are handled by a high tenor i heard the gregorian chant of the passion on good friday in this liturgy our lord is definitely very sad it s as if he has resigned himself to die for these poor pitiful creatures who are killing him the chant is quite beautiful
soc.religion.christian	re anger paul conditt writes in case you couldn t tell i get extremely angry and upset when i see things like this instead of rationalizing our own fears and phobias we need to be reaching out to people with aids and other socially unacceptable diseases whether they got the disease through their own actions or not is irrelevant they still need jesus aaron bryce cardenas writes the first issue you bring up is your anger it is obvious ly wrong to be angry gal for any reason especially extremely angry which is on par with hatred jesus has every reason to be angry at us for putting him on the cross with our sin yet his prayer was forgive them father they know not what they do i don t know why it is so obvious we are not speaking of acts of the flesh we are just speaking of emotions emotions are not of themselves moral or immoral good or bad emotions just are the first step is not to label his emotion as good or bad or to numb ourselves so that we hide our true feelings it is to accept ourselves as we are as god accepts us it seems that paul s anger he has accepted and channeled it to a plea to all of us to refrain from passing judgement on those afflicted with a disease and to reach out to others give in calling his arguments foolish belittling them to only quarrels avoiding action because of fear to give others a bad feeling he s not forgiving re think it aaron don t be quick to judge he has forgiven those with aids he has dealt with and taken responsibility for his feelings and made appropriate choices for action on such feelings he has not given in to his anger joe moore
soc.religion.christian	re online bible as bible study in apr athos rutgers edu eng nusunix nus sg ling siew wee writes hello i am about to embark on a bible study on acts i have online bible software with me i would like to know the the background of the authors of its various topics articles and about the author of the people s new testament i need to know how realible is the articles in the online bible software specifically for your convenience i want to know about the darby translation i have never heard of this one j n darby was one of the founders of the plymouth brethren and an early supporter of dispensationalism f f bruce highly approved of his translation he also translated the bible into several other languages young s literal translation i have also never heard of this was from the same fellow who did young s concordance which was a standard reference work similar to strong s concordance the realiability of the hebrew greek lexicon i believe that these just follow standard reference works the authors from which denomination etc of the articles in the topics modules some are by larry pierce brethren some are by baptists and i think that thompson of chain reference fame was presbyterian the realiability of the treasury of scripture knowlege as i have never heard of too another standard reference work that has been around for decades a new version was just released and is available through christian book distributers who are the commentators scofield and b w johnson who wrote the scofield reference bible and the people s new testament respectively c i scofield was the creator of the scofield reference bible for many people but not me this is the study bible the notes are strongly dispensational the realiability of the strong numbers these are probably the most accurate strong s numbers available shawn abigail abigail ramsey cs laurentian ca
soc.religion.christian	re sda doctrinal distinctives healta saturn wwc edu tammy r healy writes in article mar athos rutgers edu jodfishe silver ucs indiana edu joseph dale fisher writes there is a book provided by the sda which is entitled the seventh day adventist church believes or something like that the book is called basic fundamental beliefs or something very close to that the number is not i have a copy at home i m away at school actually the book is called seventh day adventists believe and there are basica beliefs i believe it is printed by the reveiew and herald publishing association competition is the law of the jungle cooperation is the law of civilization eldridge cleaver sherman cox ii scox uahcs cs uah edu
soc.religion.christian	re rebuilding the temple was re anybody out there tcsteven iaserv b ingr com todd stevens writes chuck petch writes now it appears that nothing stands in the way of rebuilding and resuming sacrifices as the scriptures indicate will happen in the last days although the israeli government will give the permission to start i think it is the hand of god holding the project until he is ready to let it happen brothers and sisters the time is at hand our redemption is drawing near look up how is a scriptural levitical priesthood resumed are there any jews who can legitimately prove their levite bloodline if i am not mistaken the jewish family names cohen kahn etc are considered to be legitimate indicators of descent from aaron the family names levi levene etc are considered to be legitimate indicators of descent from levi the main legal issue is the purification of the priesthood which is supposed to involve finding the ashes of of the red heifer last used for this purpose years ago steven stovall stovall exeter cs ucla edu
soc.religion.christian	tuff to be a christian bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes i don t think most people understand what a christian is it is certainly not what i see a lot in churches rather i think it should be a way of life and a total sacrafice of everything for god s sake he loved us enough to die and save us so we should do the typical statement from an irrational and brainwashed person the bible was written by some male chavnist thousands of years ago as were all of the holy books follow the parts that you think are suitable for modern life ignore the others for heaven s sake don t take it literally same hey we can t do it god himself inspires us to turn our lives over to him that s tuff and most people don t want to do it to be a real christian would be something for the strong to persevere at but so you think it is easy to be a muslim or be a buddhist the buddha s commandments are yrs older than christ s and in my opinion tougher to follow moreover the buddha says that we are intrinsically good as against christ s we are all sinners only we allow ourselves to be distracted by meditating we can awaken ourselves etc etc also there is no concept of god in buddhism in my opinion you can be an atheist and a buddhist but to awaken yourself is no easy task can you stay away from eating meat can you sit still and think of nothing meditate for sometime everyday buddhists do or are supposed to can you pray five times a day can you fast for a month every year ramzan are you willing to give th of your income as tithe muslims do in fact i think jesus was an ordinary man just as buddha and mohamed probably with a philosopy ahead of the times where he lived considering the fact that christianity is a young religion compared to hindiusm judaism zorasterism buddihsm it is also very probable that the bible is merely a collection of borrowed ideas there was a good deal of trade between the eastern lands and the middle east at the time of christ and perhaps some more but leave the crap in it out woman was created after man to be his helper etc aras just like weight lifting or guitar playing drums whatever it takes time we don t rush it in one day christianity is your whole life it is not going to church once a week or helping poor people once in a while we box everything into time units such as work at this time sports tv social life god is above these boxes and should be when ever i turn on my tv there is this pat robertson and other brain washers oh boy what an act they put on with an number to turn in your pledges god it seems is alive and well inside these boxes carried with us into all these boxes that we have created for ourselves parting question would you have become a christian if you had not been indoctrinated by your parents you probably never learned about any other religion to make a comparative study and therefore i claim you are brain washed
soc.religion.christian	c s lewis is ok was ancient books in article apr athos rutgers edu mayne ds scri fsu edu bill mayne wrote the last sentence is ironic since so many readers of soc religion christian seem to not be embarrassed by apologists such as josh mcdowell and c s lewis the above also expresses a rather odd sense of history what makes you think the masses in aquinas day who were mostly illiterate knew any more about rhetoric and logic than most people today if writings from the period seem elevated consider that only the cream of the crop so to speak could read and write if everyone in the medieval period knew the rules it was a matter of uncritically accepting what they were told bill mayne this may be unfair to lewis the most prominent fallacy attributed to him is the liar lunatic and lord as quoted by many christians this is a logical fallacy in its original context it was not clh exactly c s lewis has taken a couple of pretty severe hits in this group lately first somebody was accusing him of being self righteous and unconvincing now we are told that we christians should be embarrassed by him as well as by josh mcdowell about whom i have no comment having never read his work anyone who thinks that c s lewis was self righteous ought to read his introduction to the problem of pain which is his theodicy in it he explains that he wanted to publish the book anonymously why although he believed in the argument he was presenting he did not want to seem to presume to tell others how brave they should be in the face of their own suffering he did not want people to think that he was presenting himself as some kind of model of fortitude or that he was anything other than what he considered himself to be a great coward ofm has adequately handled the question of whether we ought to be embarrassed by lewis liar lunatic lord argument which by the way is part of a much bigger discourse i would just like to add that far from being embarrassed by lewis i am in a state of continual amazement at the soundness and clarity of the arguments he presents phil hey we re talking about the phone company here the phone company doesn t have opinions on this kind of stuff this is all me
soc.religion.christian	doctrine of god this is being posted as a general outline for your personal study of this doctrine the doctrine of god i the persons of the godhead of all of the doctrines of scripture this is the most important the bible is pre eminently a revelation of god therefore our first objective in studying the bible should be to know god i believe that the bible teaches that there are three persons in the godhead trinity god the father god the son the lord jesus christ and god the holy spirit i believe that they are individual persons who are one in nature meaning that they are identical in nature each possessing the same divine attributes they are also equally worthy of our worship our trust and our obedience cf matt cor john ii the attributes or characteristics of the godhead a god s nature is revealed in the name he has taken for himself jehovah he is the living god eternal and unchanging he is without beginning and without ending cf isa b god is a spirit cf john c god is love cf john as such he is gracious merciful good faithful patient and full of lovingkindness cf psa psa nahum d but god is also holy and righteous he is absolutely without sin in his nature and so is incapable of sinning in though word or action cf ex isa e god is omnipresent everywhere present at the same time in the completeness of his person omniscient all knowing knowing all things the end from the beginning infinitely wise omnipotent almighty sovereign with unlimited power over all creation god is infinite in his presence wisdom and power it is my conviction that the work of the lord in our day has become very man centered and that the people in our churches know very little about god i believe that the lord s work needs to be god centered and that the people of god need to understand that god is sovereign in all things in the affairs of nations in the lives of all people and in the carrying out of his purposes regarding salvation iii the works of the godhead a in creation all three persons of the godhead were active in creating and all three are active in sustaining creation and in ordering the course of human affairs for nations as well as individual people to the end of time cf gen john col heb b in salvation in order to understand salvation i believe that it is absolutely necessary to begin with god not with man all three persons of the godhead have been and are active in salvation god the father salvation originated with god the members of the godhead determined in eternity past that there would be salvation the conditions under which people could and would be saved and even who would be saved election to salvation is recognized in scripture as the work of god the father cf eph thess christ the son of god the lord jesus christ through his birth by the virgin mary came to the earth to accomplish two important works a he came as the final and complete revelation of god the father cf col heb b he came to provide salvation for all whom the father had chosen he did this by his death on the cross by his bodily resurrection and by his present intercessory work in heaven the work of salvation will be completed for us when the lord returns cf rom cor heb john the holy spirit as the author of scripture the theme of which is christ and his redemptive work the holy spirit is carrying out the redemptive plan of god in the following ways a he convicts of sin cf john b he regenerates known in the bible as the new birth cf john c he indwells each believer to fulfill the work of sanctification cf john d he seals every believer in christ thus making salvation secure cf eph e he baptizes every believer into the body of christ cf cor f he teaches every believer the truth of scripture cf john g he bestows spiritual gifts on the people of god for ministry cf cor h he restrains sin cf gal i he empowers for living and for service cf acts liane brown internet brownli ohsu edu portland oregon
soc.religion.christian	re questions who exactly is the lord god or jesus christ john says nkjv the little green gideon someone forced on me one day in the beginning was the word and the word was with god and the word was god the word refers to jesus christ so from this john declares that god and jesus are one therefore the lord refers to both also david in the psalms refers to both god in heaven and the coming messiah as his lord once again this refers to god and jesus what is the definition of a truly religious person should he she not swear curse does it say anything about this in the bible some of the most truly religious people i ve known have not been christians and some of the greatest christians i ve known have been truly irreligious however to answer your question the bible speaks of this in many places a previous post to james is a good one another is psalm lord who may abide in your tabernacle who may dwell in your holy hill he who walks uprightly and works righteousness and speaks the truth in his heart he who does not backbite with his tongue nor does evil to his neighbor nor does he take up a reproach against his friend i whose eyes a vile person is despised but he honors those who fear the lord he who swears to his own hurt and does not change he who does not put out money at usury nor does he take a bribe aginst the innocent he who does these things shall never be moved rob coffey indeed the safest road to coffey cptc neep wisc edu hell is the gradual one the if you send mail to cptc gentle slope soft underfoot i ll never read it without sudden turnings without milestones without signposts screwtape the day techwood meets the wrecking ball the world shall rejoice but i ll have lost a former home
soc.religion.christian	being right about messiahs i must have missed the postings about waco david koresh and the second coming how does one tell if a second coming is the real thing unless the person claiming to be it is obviously insane i m not saying that david koresh is the second coming of christ how could somebody who breaks his word be the second coming koresh did promise that he would come out of his compound if only he was allowed to give a radio broadcast he didn t still it seems to me that he did fool some people and from my meagre knowledge of the bible it seems that christians have been hard on the jews of christ s day for being cautious about accepting somebody that their religious authorities didn t accept as the messiah so i was surprised that nobody had discussed the difficulty of wanting to be early to recognize the second coming while at the same time not wanting to be credulously believing just anybody who claims to be god mark and then if any one says to you look here is the christ or look there he is do not believe it mark false christs and false prophets will arise and show signs and wonders to lead astray if possible the elect mark but take heed i have told you all things beforehand mark but in those days after that tribulation the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light mark and the stars will be falling from heaven and the powers in the heavens will be shaken mark and then they will see the son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory my understanding of jesus answer is that unlike his first coming which was veiled the second coming will be quite unmistakeable he s telling us not to be misled by the other things that have to happen before his second coming the actual second coming will make his power openly visible by the way from koresh s public statement it s not so clear to me that he is claiming to be christ clh
soc.religion.christian	an agnostic s question pardon me if this is the wrong newsgroup i would describe myself as an agnostic in so far as i m sure there is no single universal supreme being but if there is one and it is just we will surely be judged on whether we lived good lives striving to achieve that goodness that is within the power of each of us now the complication is that one of my best friends has become very fundamentalist that would normally be a non issue with me but he feels it is his responsibility to proselytize me which i guess it is according to his faith this is a great strain to our friendship i would have no problem if the subject didn t come up but when it does the discussion quickly begins to offend both of us he is offended because i call into question his bedrock beliefs i am offended by what i feel is a subscription to superstition rationalized by such circular arguments as the bible is god s word because he tells us in the bible that it is so so my question is how can i convince him that this is a subject better left undiscussed so we can preserve what is in all areas other than religious beliefs a great friendship how do i convince him that i am beyond saving so he won t try thanks for any advice jim tomlinson falling snow bogart project jdt voodoo ca boeing com excellent snow boeing computer services uunet bcstec voodoo jdt anderson gabriel
soc.religion.christian	re phone number of wycliffe translators uk i m concerned about a recent posting about wbt sil i thought they d pretty much been denounced as a right wing organization involved in ideological manipulation and cultural interference including vietnam and south america a commission from mexican academia denounced them in as a covert political and ideological institution used by the u s govt as an instrument of control regulation penetration espionage and repression my concern is that this group may be seen as acceptable and even praiseworthy by readers of soc religion christian it s important that christians don t immediately accept every christian organization as automatically above reproach mp
soc.religion.christian	esotericism i m compiling a bibliography on religious perspectives on esotericism hermeticism gnosticism mysticism occultism alchemy and magic and am interested in sources that others have found particularly interesting and insightful i m especially interested in medieval works such as the chemical wedding of christian rosenkreutz and arthurian legends please feel free too to send personal opinions on any of the above pro or con or anywhere in between thanks much stephen twelker twelker ide com
soc.religion.christian	re certainty and arrogance in an earlier article i explained that what many people find arrogant about christians is that some christians profess absolute certianty about their beliefs and doctrines that is many christians insist that they cannot have made any mistakes when discovering their beliefs which amounts to saying that they are infallible impicitly claiming to be infallible is pretty arrogant most of us will probably agree in short the problem is that no matter how good your sources are if any part of your doctrines or beliefs rest on your own thinking and reasoning then those doctrines are suspect so long as your own brain is involved there is a possibility for error i summarised the problem by writing there is no way out of the loop someone called rexlex has claimed that there is a way out of the loop but he did not bother to explain what it was preferring instead to paraphrase sartre ramble about wittgenstein and say that the conclusion of my argument leads to relativism as i have explained to him before you cannot reject an argument as false because you dislike where it leads the facts do not change just because you dislike them rexlex wrote i disagree with dr nancy s sweetie s conclusion because if it is taken to fruition it leads to relativism which leads to dispair however as any first year philosophy student can explain what rexlex has written does not constitute a refutation all he has said is that he does not like what i wrote he has done nothing at all to dispute it there were two sentences in rexlex s post that seemed relevant to the point at hand there is such a thing as true truth and it is real it can be experienced and it is verifiable i do not dispute that some truths can be verified through experience i have for example direct experience of adding numbers i don t claim to be infallible at it in fact i remember doing sums incorrectly but i do claim that i have direct experience of reasoning about numbers however once we go past experiencing things and start reasoning about them we are on much shakier ground that was the point of the earlier article human brains are infested with sin and they can only be trusted in very limited circumstances it is only because of god s own revelation that we can be absolute about a thing but how far does that get you once god s revelation stops and your own reasoning begins possibility for error appears for example let s suppose that our modern bible translations include a perfect rendering of jesus words at the last supper and that jesus said exactly this is my body we ll presume that what he said was totally without error and absolutely true what can we be certain of not much at the moment he stops speaking and people start interpreting the possibility of error appears did he mean that literally or not we do not have any record that he elaborated on the words was he thinking of tran or con substatiation he didn t say we interpret this passage using our brains we think and reason and draw conclusions but we know that our brains are not perfect our thinking often leads us wrong this is something that most of us have direct experience of why should anyone believe that his reasoning which he knows to be fallible can lead him to perfect conclusions so given the assumptions in this example what we can be certain of is that jesus said this is my body beyond that once we start making up doctrines and using our brains to reason about what christ revealed we get into trouble unless you are infallible there are very few things you can be certain of to the extent that doctrines rely on fallible human thinking they cannot be certain that is the problem of seeming arrogant the non christians around us know that human beings make mistakes just as surely as we know it they do not believe we are infallible any more than we do when christians speak as if they believe their own reasoning can never lead them astray when we implicitly claim that we are infallible the non christians around us rarely believe that implicit claim witnessing is hardly going to work when the person you are talking to believes that you are either too foolish to recognise your own limits or intentionally trying to cover them up i think it would be far better to say what things we are certain of and what things we are only very confident of for example we might say that we know our sin for recognising sin is something we directly experience but other things whether based on reasoning from scripture or extra biblical thinking should not be labled as infallible we should say that we are very confident of them and be ready to explain our reasoning but so far as i am aware none of us is infallible speaking or acting as if our thinking is flawless is ridiculous rexlex suggested that people read he is there and he is not silent by francis schaeffer i didn t think very highly of it but i think that mr schaeffer is grossly overrated by many evangelical christians somebody else might like it though so don t let my opinion stop you from reading it if someone is interested in my opinion i d suggest on certainty by ludwig wittgenstein darren f provine kilroy gboro rowan edu if any substantial number of talk religion misc readers read some wittgenstein of the postings would disappear if they understood some wittgenstein would disappear michael l siemon
soc.religion.christian	re sabbath admissions of all of the arguments concerning the sabbath ought to make the point pretty clear anyone outside of the catholic or orthodox oranglican or monophysite churches ourght to worship on saturday if they are really sola scriptura otherwise they are following a law put into effect by the church and only the above chruches really recognize any power of the chruch to do so andy byler you will note that nothing in the faq said anything about the church establishing or changing a law the argument against the sabbath is that it is part of the ceremonial law and like the rest of the ceremonial law is not binding on christians this argument is based on paul s letters acts and in a more general sense jesus teachings further most people argue that scripture shows worship occuring on sunday and paul endorsing it i understand that these points are disputed and do not want to go around the dispute one more time the point i m making here is not that these arguments are right but that the backing they claim is scripture accepting the principle of sola scriptura does not commit us to obeying the entire jewish law acts and paul s letters are quite clear on that i think even the sda s accept it the disagreement is on where the bible would have us place the line by the way protestants do give authority to the church in matters that are not dictated by god that s why churches are free to determine their own liturgies church polity etc if you accept that the sabbath is not binding on christians then the day of worship falls into the category of items on which individual christians or since worship is by its nature a group activity churches are free to decide clh
soc.religion.christian	thinking about heaven james sledd asks what is the nature of eternal life how can we as mortals locked into space time conceive of it a if the best we can do is metaphor analogy then what is the best metaphor c s lewis s essay the weight of glory deals with this question i recommend it enthusiastically you might also read the chapter on heaven in his book the problem of pain he gives a fictional treatment in his book the great divorce i have found all of these very helpful you might also be helped by the treatment in dante s divine comedy heaven occupies the last third of the poem but i cannot imagine reading it other than from the beginning i urge you to use the translation by dorothy l sayers available from penguin paperbacks yours james kiefer
soc.religion.christian	quality of catholic liturgy i appreciated the follow ups and replies to my earlier query one reply which i have lost suggested several parishes in new york that have good masses one of which was corpus christi in downtown manhattan by coincidence last week s america the national jesuit magazine carried an interview with fr myles bourke corpus christi s pastor emeritus fr bourke also directed the nt translation in the new american bible he noted certain practices have been introduced into the mass in such a manner that an atmosphere of banality and sometimes of hilarity has trivialized the liturgy i note that at my parents parish on easter helium filled balloons were distributed at the offertory apparently to aid in understanding the word risen this was not a kiddie mass either but the well attended mass i wanted to note the generous spirit behind the replies this newsgroup as a whole offers generally moderate perhaps because it s moderated conversation on topics that often lead people to extreme behavior including myself sometimes people do go over the top but the remarkable thing is how that is the exception i think benefits of the doubt are generally granted it seems so christian john murray
soc.religion.christian	re did he really rise in article apr geneva rutgers edu parkin eng sun com writes desperately wanted the jewish people to accept him as the messiah if the crucification was the will of god how could jesus pray that this cup pass from him was this out of weakness never many men and women have given their lives for their country or other noble causes is jesus less than these no he is not he knew the crucification was not the will of god god s will was that the jewish people accept jesus as the messiah and that the kingdom of heaven be established on the earth with jesus as it s head just like the jewish people expected if this had happened years ago can you imagine what why do you assume that jesus s plea to his father to let this cup pass from him was merely a plea to escape death when i look at jesus in the garden i see a man god who all his life had had the presense of his father with him as a result he knew every detail about his death long before the agony in the garden but as that hour approached he felt abandoned by his father his presense diminishing with each passing minute in addition it was brought more and more to jesus s attention the betrayal of judas was probably a big impact that his suffering would be to no avail for many people especially those who would reject him not only then but in the future i truly believe that the majority of jesus s suffering was mental and spiritual while the physical portion was only the tip of the iceburg btw we know from john s account that jesus shunned becomming an earthly king from john joh after the people saw the miraculous sign that jesus did they began to say surely this is the prophet who is to come into the world joh jesus knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force withdrew again to a mountain by himself this does not seem like a man who would regret not becoming an earthly king no jesus knew his mission was to redeem all jew gentile people and establish his kingdom in the hearts of those who would believe this was utterly mistaken much to jesus s dismay as an aspiration to some earthly kingdom but he knew what his father s will was and followed it obediently even in the darkness of his passion john g ata technical consultant internet ata hfsi com hfs inc va uucp uunet hfsi ata westpark drive ms voice mclean va fax
soc.religion.christian	re hell black sabbath in article apr geneva rutgers edu jprzybyl skidmore edu jennifer przybylinski writes hey i may be wrong but wasn t jeff fenholt part of black sabbath he s a major brother in christ now he totally changed his life around and he and his wife go on tours singing witnessing and spreading the gospel for christ i may be wrong about black sabbath but i know he was in a similar band if it wasn t that particular group jeff fenholt claims to have once been a roadie for black sabbath he was never ever a musician in the band he was in st louis several months back the poster i saw at the christian bookstore i frequent really turned me off it was addressed to all homosexuals prostitutes drug addicts alcoholics and headbangers or something like that well if i showed up with my long hair and black leather jacket i would have felt a little pre judged as a orthodox christian and a headbanger i was slightly insulted at being lumped together with drug addicts and alcoholics oh yes i suppose since i drink a good german beer now and then that makes me an alcoholic not steven c salaris we re a lot more dangerous than live crew salaris carcs wustl edu and their stupid use of foul language because we have ideas we have a philosophy geoff tate queensryche
soc.religion.christian	harrassed at work could use some prayers my news feed is broken and i haven t received any new news in hours more than days so if you reply to this please send private email to the address esther demand ed ray com i have set the reply to line to have that address but i don t know if it will work it depends upon the software but generally i wouldn t expect reply to to cause an email cc to be sent in addition to a posting you ll probably need to do something specific which will vary depending upon your news software clh at any rate i need some support much thanks to jayne k who is already supporting me with kind words and prayers i ve been working at this company for eight years in various engineering jobs i m female yesterday i counted and realized that on seven different occasions i ve been sexually harrassed at this company seven times eight years yesterday was the most recent one someone left an x rated photo of a nude woman in my desk drawer i m really upset by this i suppose it could have been worse it could have been a man having sex with a sheep or something there was no note i do not know if it was someone s idea of an innocent joke that went awry someone s sick idea of flirting an act of emotional terrorism that worked i dreaded coming back to work today what if my boss comes in to ask me some kind of question i don t know the answer so i take a military specification down off from my shelf to look up the answer and out falls a picture of a man having sex with a sheep i generally have a bible on my desk for occasional inspiration what if i open it up to corinthians and find a picture a la the north american man boy love association i want to throw up just thinking about this stuff i can lock up my desk but i can t lock up every book i have in the office i can t trust that someone won t shove something into my briefcase or my coat pocket when i m not looking so that i go home to find such a picture or a threat or a raunchy note about what someone wants to do to my body to make it worse the entire department went out to lunch yesterday to treat our marvelous secretary to lunch the appointed hour for leaving was i was working in another building but wanted to go to the lunch so i returned at only to find that ever single person had already left for lunch they left at or so no one could be bothered to call me at the other building even though my number was posted so i came back to a department that looked like a neutron bomb had gone off and i was the sole survivor this despite the fact that everyone knew how bad i felt about this naked woman being left in my desk drawer i need some prayers i can t stop crying i am so deeply wounded that it s ridiculous i feel like i m some kind of sub human piece of garbage for people to reduce me and my sisters to simply sex organs and the sex act i feel like i m a sub human piece of garbage that s not worthy of a simple phone call saying we re leaving for mary s lunch a little early so that bob can get back for a big meeting please pray that my resentments will either go away or be miraculously turned into something positive please pray that whoever is torturing me so will stop and find some healing for him or herself please pray for my being healed from this latest wound which falls on top of a whole slew of other wounds please pray that i can find a new job in a place where the corporate culture does its best to prevent such harrassment from happening in the first place and swiftly acts appropriately when something occurs despite its best precautions this company in my opinion has pretty words about how sexual harrassment isn t tolerated but when you get right down to it how is it that one female engineer can be touched inappropriately left obsene or threatening notes left obscene pictures spoken to lewdly etc seven times in eight years in the same place pretty words from the company do me no good when i m terrified or healing from the latest assault and please pray that i don t turn into an automaton because of this that s my bad habit ignore it and it will go away you re not worth anyone s time so don t go talking to anyone about this you re right you are a sub human piece of garbage and deserve to be treated this way you are just an object you prostitute your mind to this company so why can t others expect you to prostitute your body there as well what makes you think women aren t just possessions and nothing more than sex organs and their ability to perform the sex act this is the kind of thinking that can catapault one into a major depressive episode please pray that these thoughts don t come into my head and stay there triggering depression please pray that this latest trauma doesn t come between me and god in a way a wound like this is an invitation to a deeper connection to god and it s also a possible trigger for a spiritual crisis that can separate one mentally from god i know god doesn t drop me from his loving hand but it s awfully easy for me to walk to the edge of the hand look down think i m falling and forget that god s still holding on to me although this probably isn t entirely appropriate for this newsgroup i really can use the kind of loving support you all provide for this reason i hope good mr moderator allows me this latest indulgence after all he s allowed me the thermometer note and a few other off the wall topics thanks in advance to everyone for your support and prayers peace to you esther esther paris raytheon equipment div marlboro ma esther demand ed ray com in his esteem nothing that was large enough to please was too small for the fingers john kitto the lost senses
soc.religion.christian	re sspx schism in article apr geneva rutgers edu shellgate llo uu psi com larry l overacker writes you ask where we are i would echo that question i m not trying to be contentious but assuming that the pope has universal jurisdiction and authority what authority do you rely upon for your decisions what prevents me from choosing any doctrine i like and saying that papal disagreement is an error that will be resolved in time this is especially true since councils of bishops have basically stood by the pope the ultimate question is the traditional theology of the church this is the only thing that it is possible to resist a pope for his departure from the traditional doctrine of the church if commands from any authority conflict with tradition the commands must be disobeyed my own view on this is that this conflict could only happen in a major way god would never allow a hair splitting situation to develop it would be too complex for people to figure out i don t view the present situation in the church as anything extremely complicated run through a list of what has happened in the last years in the catholic church and any impartial observer will be aghast it appears that much of what lies at the heart of this matter is disagreements over what is tradition and tradition and also over authority and discipline the problems stem from a general widespread ignorance of the catholic faith in my opinion most catholics know about zilch about the catholic faith this leaves them wide open for destruction by erring bishops it s basically the reformation part ii there is not even a question in my mind that in some respects the shards of the catholic church are currently being trampled upon by the catholic hierarchy i could go on listing shocking things for an hour probably take the situation in campos brazil for example i m reading a book on what happened there after vatican council ii the bishop antonio de castro mayer never introduced all the changes that followed in the wake of vatican ii he kept the traditional mass the same old catechisms etc he made sure the people knew their faith the catholic theology of obedience what modernism was etc he innoculated the people against what was coming well one day the order came from rome for his retirement it came when the pope was sick bishop de castro mayer waited until the pope recovered then inquired whether this command was what the pope really wanted or something that some liberal had commanded in his absence the pope confirmed the decision so the good bishop retired the injustice that followed was completely incredible a new bishop was installed he proceeded to expel most of bishop de castro mayer s clergy from their churches because they refused to celebrate the new mass the new bishop would visit a parish and celebrate a new mass the people would promptly walk out of the church en masse the bishop was enraged by this he usually resorted to enlisting the help of the secular authorities to eject the priest from the church the priests would just start building new churches the people were completely behind them the old parishes had the new mass as the bishop desired and virtually no parishioners the prime motivation for all this was completely illegal according to canon law no priest can be penalized in any way for saying the traditional mass because of legislation enacted by pope saint pius v nor is there any obligation to say the new mass during all this process the people of campos not just private individuals but including civil authorities were constantly sending petitions and letters to rome to do something about the new modernist bishop nothing was ever done no help ever arrived from rome eventually priests were kicked out and about people my question to the supporters of sspx is this is there any way that your positions with respect to church reforms could change and be conformed to those of the pope assuming that the pope s position does not change and that the leaders of sspx don t jointly make such choice if not this appears to be claiming infallible teaching authority if i adopt the view that i m not wrong i can t be wrong and there s no way i ll change my mind you must change yours that i ve either left the catholic church or it has left me if the pope defines certain things ex cathedra that would be the end of the controversy that process is all very well understood in catholic theology and anyone who doesn t go along with it is an instant non catholic the problem here is that people do not appreciate what is going on in the catholic world if they knew the faith and what our bishops are doing they would be shocked we sould argue from now until the second coming about what the real traditional teaching of the church is if this were a simple matter east and west would not have been separated for over years this isn t the case in the catholic church there is a massive body of traditional teaching the popes of the last years are especially relevant there is no question at all what the traditional doctrine is i thought that the teaching magisterieum of the church did not allow error in teachings regarding faith and morals even in the short term i may be wrong here i m not roman catholic that s heresy more or less although they have done a great job since the reformation the last years have seen so many errors spread that it s pitiful infallibility rests in the pope and in the church as a whole in the short term a pope or large sections of the church can go astray in fact that s what usually happens during a major heresy large sections of the church go astray the pope historically has been much more reliable everything will always come back in the long run what would be the effect of a pope making an ex cathedra statement regarding the sspx situation would it be honored if not how do you get around the formal doctrine of infallibility again i m not trying to be contentions i m trying to understand since i m orthodox i ve got no real vested interest in the outcome one way or the other yes it would be honored infallibility is infallibility but what is he going to define that the new mass is a better expression of the catholic faith than the old that sex education in the catholic schools is wonderful that all religions are wonderful except for that professed by the popes prior to vatican ii it does if the command was legitimate sspx does not view the pope s commands as legitimate why this is a very slippery slope not really start studying the major catholic theologians of the last years everything is very well spelled out the west excels at critical thought remember that s what catholic theologians have been busy at for centuries
soc.religion.christian	re when are two people married in god s eyes in article apr geneva rutgers edu mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington writes in article apr athos rutgers edu randerso acad sahs uth tmc edu robert anderson writes i would like to get your opinions on this when exactly does an engaged couple become married in god s eyes not if they are unwilling to go through a public marriage ceremony nor if they say they are willing but have not actually done so let s distinguish real logistical problems like being stranded on a desert island from excuses such as waiting for so and so s brother to come back from being in the army so he can be in the ceremony i disagree people marry each other when they commit fully to each other as life partners they are married the ceremony may assist in emphasizing the depth of such a commitment but is of itself nothing god knows our hearts he knows when two have committed themselves to be one he knows the fears and delusions we have that keep us from fully giving ourselves to another the way i see it you d have to be living together in a marriage for somewhere between and years before anyone knew if a marriage really existed but god knows i don t think god keeps a scorebook joe moore
soc.religion.christian	re certainty and arrogance darren dr nancy s sweetie kilroy gboro rowan edu writes darren in an earlier article i explained that what many people find darren arrogant about christians is that some christians profess darren absolute certainty about their beliefs and doctrines and darren in short the problem is that no matter how good your sources darren are if any part of your doctrines or beliefs rest on your own darren thinking and reasoning then those doctrines are suspect the point that darren raises is a very lutheran viewpoint while reason is a gift from god it is also infected by sin yet we do not reject reason entirely and neither i think does darren we need reason as darren himself has pointed out to comprehend god s revelation of himself in the bible but reason alone is not sufficient to comprehend and believe the word we need first and foremost faith for the sinful mind is hostile to god it does not submit to god s law nor can it do so romans luther accepted scripture as the sole means of revelation sola scriptura but accepted the necessity of the use of reason with faith in comprehending that revelation yet luther also said regarding baptism but mad reason rushes forth and because baptism is not dazzling like the works which we do regards it as worthless large catechism fourth part baptism to make matters more complicated luther was the sort of theologian that many people would describe as an absolutist i ve seen him described as a take no prisoners theologian we might conclude given these observations that luther was inconsistent or mad and surely at least some have come to that conclusion but it might be useful to recall that jesus was also called mad and peter felt compelled to defend himself and the apostles against a charge of drunkenness on pentecost so we as christians ought to be careful about rejecting luther or others as mad rather we should imitate the bereans who examined the scriptures every day to see if what paul said was true acts the basis for the confidence with which luther peter paul and many others preached the gospel was not just reason but faith and the holy spirit this is not faith divorced from reason but a faith that guides informs and uses reason the spirit enables us to know the truth and to proclaim it boldly god does not want us to preach the message that i think that jesus might have risen from the dead but rather i know that my redeemer lives job the christian does not side with pilate in saying what is truth but rather follows christ who said in fact for this reason i was born and for this i came into the world to testify to the truth everyone on the side of truth listens to me john we can know the truth because god has promised us that we can know the truth jesus said if you hold to my teachings you are really my disciples then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free john the proverbs urge us buy the truth and do not sell it pr the psalmist prayed do not snatch to word of truth from my mouth ps evidently he believed that the word of truth was in fact in his mouth yet we do indeed appear arrogant if our claim to the truth is motivated by self glorification but if we present the truth as the teachings of scripture revealed by the spirit and not our own invention and if we stand ready to be proved wrong on the basis of scripture as luther did then we are not arrogant but humble we should humbly trust in god s promise of truth just as we trust in his promise of forgiveness rexlex it is only because of god s own revelation that we can be rexlex absolute about a thing darren but how far does that get you once god s revelation stops darren and your own reasoning begins possibility for error appears i agree that we must make a distinction between the clear teachings of scripture and the products of our own reason even when such reasoning is based on scripture however i think i would draw the line of distinction more reasonably and less academically than you would darren for example let s suppose that our modern bible translations darren include a perfect rendering of jesus words at the last supper darren and that jesus said exactly this is my body darren we ll presume that what he said was totally without error and darren absolutely true what can we be certain of not much darren at the moment he stops speaking and people start darren interpreting the possibility of error appears did he mean darren that literally or not we do not have any record that he darren elaborated on the words was he thinking of tran or con darren substantiation he didn t say darren is almost at the point of making a very lutheran statement about the lord s supper the lutheran approach is to say that if jesus said this is my body then that is what we should believe other interpretations are rejected simply because they are not taught in scripture recall that jesus words do not stand alone on this subject we also have paul s words in corinthians in which he passed on to us what he received from the lord in particular he said for whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup you proclaim the lord s death until he comes by these words we should believe that the bread that we eat in the lord s supper really is bread as well as the lord s body as our senses in fact tell us does this prove that tran substantiation is false i suppose someone could say that paul spoke metaphorically of the lord s body as bread simply because that is the way the body appears when we eat it but this thought is found nowhere in scripture so we reject it thus the primary reason for rejecting tran substantiation is not that we can prove it false but that it is simply not found in scripture side remark i ve been told that the lutheran doctrine on real presence is con substantiation but it has been non lutherans who have told me this we tend not to use the word i almost think that this is used more by professors of comparative religion who need labels to compare catholic lutheran and reformed teachings on the lord s supper but almost every church wants to call their own teaching real presence because that was the traditional teaching of the church end side remark darren when christians speak as if they believe their own reasoning darren can never lead them astray when we implicitly claim that we darren are infallible the non christians around us rarely believe darren that implicit claim witnessing is hardly going to work when darren the person you are talking to believes that you are either too darren foolish to recognise your own limits or intentionally trying darren to cover them up this is precisely why christians should not rely on rationalizations in their witnessing it is far better to take the approach i d like to show you what scripture says you decide for yourself whether to believe it or not darren rexlex suggested that people read he is there and he is not darren silent by francis schaeffer i didn t think very highly of darren it but i think that mr schaeffer is grossly overrated by many darren evangelical christians somebody else might like it though darren so don t let my opinion stop you from reading it darren if someone is interested in my opinion i d suggest on darren certainty by ludwig wittgenstein as long as we re trading references i d like to suggest dr siegbert becker s paperback the foolishness of god the place of reason in lutheran theology published by northwestern publishing house this book was based on becker s doctoral thesis at the university of chicago david wagner not by might nor by power a confessional lutheran but by my spirit says the lord almighty zechariah
soc.religion.christian	re question jesus alone oneness in article apr geneva rutgers edu bjorn b larsen delab sintef no a writes can anybody tell me the basic reasons for holding a belief that there is only jesus and vice versa the foundations for the trinity bjorn i d love to know how jesus only proponents would answer questions like who is this father jesus keeps referring to why does he call himself the son why does he pray to the father and not to himself why does he emphasize that he does his father s will and not his own if he was doing his own will what kind of example is that should we follow it when he says he has to return to the father who is he going to when he says he does this in order that the comforter the holy spirit might come who might that be if he claims that the coming of the holy spirit is such a blessing that it s worth his leaving us and returning to the father what can that mean if there is no holy spirit why doesn t the best known christian prayer begin our saviour who art in heaven rather than our father do they have answers to these questions that are even plausible further entertaining queries are left as an exercise to the reader drt david r tucker kg s drt athena mit edu there may be some misunderstanding over terms here i believe jesus only originally was in the context of baptism these are folks who believe that baptism should be done with a formula mentioning only jesus rather than father son and holy spirit this may have doctrinal implications but as far as i know it does not mean that these folks deny the existence or divinity of the father i m not the right one to describe this theology and in fact i think there may be several including what would classically be called monophysite or arian two rather different views as well as some who have beliefs that are probably consistent with trinitarian standards but who won t use trinitarian language because they misunderstand it or simply because it is not biblical clh
soc.religion.christian	daily verse for the lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of god and the dead in christ will rise first then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together to meet the lord in the air and thus we shall always be with the lord thessalonians
soc.religion.christian	re god shaped hole was re accepting jeesus in your heart in article apr geneva rutgers edu fraseraj dcs glasgow ac uk andrew j fraser writes several people were involved in trying to figure out who first used the phrase god shaped hole clh there is a god shaped vacuum in all of us or something to that effect is generally attributed to blaise pascal i believe this is a just another of way of expressing the basic truth all things were created by him and for him emphasis mine col rev if you and i have been created for god naturally there will be a vacuum if god is not our all and all in fact the first chapter of collosians brings out this status of christ that he should have the preeminence when you life is alligned with him and you do his will then the vacuum is filled marc chamberland mchamberland violet uwaterloo ca
soc.religion.christian	radio free thulcandra was dungeons dragons an author s view there was a recent discussion of dungeons and dragons and other role playing games since there is a lot of crossover between gamers and science fiction and fantasy fans i will mention that i am the editor and publisher of radio free thulcanra a christian oriented science fiction fanzine it is not a christian magazine with a special interest in science fiction it is a science fiction fanzine with a special interest in christianity gaming is not a major topic of discussion but it has come up in some letters no there are no arguments about whether d d is satanic people who think it is are not likely to be reading rft anyway i am now working on the april issue i will send a sample copy to any reader of soc religion christian who requests it it is printed on paper so requests should include a snail mail address marty helgesen bitnet mnhcc cunyvm internet mnhcc cunyvm cuny edu what if there were no such thing as a hypothetical situation
soc.religion.christian	re being right about messiahs jesus isn t god when jesus returns some people may miss him what version of the bible do you read mike jesus is god incarnate in flesh jesus said i and the father are one jesus was taken up to heaven after his day post resurrection stint and the angels who were there assured the apostles that jesus would return the same way and that everyone will see the coming that s why jesus warned that many would come claiming to be him but that we would know when jesus actually returns these are two very large parts of my faith and you definitely hit a nerve sheila patterson cit cr technical support cornell university ithaca ny
soc.religion.christian	re revelations babylon in article apr geneva rutgers edu jbuddenberg vax cns muskingum edu jimmy buddenberg writes hello all we are doing a bible study at my college on revelations we have been doing pretty good as far as getting some sort of reasonable interpretation we are now on chapters and which talk about the woman on the beast and the fall of babylon i believe the beast is the antichrist some may differ but it seems obvious and the woman represents babylon which stands for rome or the roman catholic church what are some views on this interpretation is the falling babylon in chapter the same babylon in as in chapter the catholic church hate to step on toes thanks an interesting interpretation of revelation and has been given by evangelist david wilkerson i am not saying that i totally agree with his interpretation but it is certainly believable and good food for thought he interprets the babylon of revelation as being none other than the good old u s of a that s right america he supports his claim in several ways the babylon of revelation is the world leader in trade and commerce and the whole world wept when babylon fell the american dollar despite the japanese success of the th century is still the most sought after currency in the world if the u s were destroyed wouldn t the whole world mourn the bible also talks about babylon being a home of harlots sin and adultery i am paraphrasing of course babylon s sin affected or should i say infected the whole world it doesn t take much looking to see that the u s is in a state of moral decay hasn t the american culture and hollywood spread the do it if it feels good mentality all over the world i think though that what mr wilkerson uses as his strongest argument is the fact that revelation calls babylon babylon the great and portrays it as the most powerful nation on earth no matter how dissatisfied you are with the state of our country i don t think you would have too much trouble agreeing that the u s is still the most powerful nation on earth again this interpretation is not necessarily my own but i do find it worthy of consideration jeffrey little
soc.religion.christian	afterlife here is another way of looking at it when we die we are released from the arc of time and able to comprehend our lives in toto to visit each moment in time sequentially or all at once but not able to alter the actions thoughts or feelings we had have will have in this life from that perspective i posit that all will have direct knowledge of god and be able to recognize at each moment of time wether we were doing what we ought that the experience of having lived a life far from god will be an eternal torment that having lived a life of grace will be an eternal joy that the resurrection of the body comes not from any physical reconstitution of our present forms but knowledge of our present forms by our fully cognizant souls as an aside if we were to be restricted for all time to our present form would you opt for immortality james sledd think in n dimensions listen for the voice of god
soc.religion.christian	helphelp part hello i m back i would first like to thank each and every person who sent me a response be it a positive or negative one i read every letter and thought about each one i got all sorts of responses from marry her to have nothing ever to do with her again through reading the bible and through a lot of prayer here is what i have decided to do i sent her a letter today first i told her that if she was really serious about moving away from home to another state that i would do anything to get you here in nc i told her that i tried to find out if there were any new stores planning to be built but they wouldn t tell me about her marraige comment i m not gonna call it a proposal cause i still don t know if it was a total joke or not i more or less said that marry me well get transferred to nc first and then we ll talk hopefully what i said could be interpreted either way needless to say there has been a lot of praying over this i have done a lot of reading about marraige from the bible if she was dead serious about getting married i wouldn t do it yet simply b c she is not as far as i know to this point a christian it just wouldn t work w o god in the marraige as well i figure that if god wanrs this to go through he s kept us in touch for years now he can handle one more if god wants it to happen it will happen she will be in nc in june meetinf some relatives so i ll get to see her and i ll get a letter from her befoe then so i know more of what to look forward to i guess all i can do now is wait and pray i have decided not to tell my folks until i m totally sure what is going on i do ask that everyone that wrote me to please keep this situation in your prayers finally i would like to thank everyone who wrote in if you have anything else for me i will be at this email address for one week please tell me anyhting you want i m curious how folks think about what i did thanx chris
soc.religion.christian	re an agnostic s question in article apr geneva rutgers edu jdt voodoo ca boeing com jim tomlinson jimt ii writes pardon me if this is the wrong newsgroup i would describe myself as an agnostic in so far as i m sure there is no single universal supreme being but if there is one and it is just we will surely be judged on whether we lived good lives striving to achieve that goodness that is within the power of each of us now the complication is that one of my best friends has become very fundamentalist that would normally be a non issue with me but he feels it is his responsibility to proselytize me which i guess it is according to his faith this is a great strain to our friendship sorry to disappoint you but i m afraid your friendship is in danger perhaps you should examine in yourself why as such a good friend you are unwilling to accept this imortant part of your friends life why do you call into question his faith your friend has changed he has found something that fills a need in his life you need to decide if you are still his friend whether you can accommodate his new life it sounds as if you are criticizing him for a fundamental belief in the bible yet you are quick to reveal that your fundamental belief that it is superstition perhaps if he knew you at least took him seriously that you at least took an interest in the light he has found that you at least tried to understand what has become a special part of his life you could together decide to become fundamentalists respect each others differences and remain friends or part ways maybe even if you stuck it out with him you could help him to un convert of course if you go in with that attitude he will surely see through your intentions and begin to resent you i happen to be a person very tolerant of fundamentalists because i know that the idea of a simple black and white approach to life is appealing i don t happen to share the beliefs of fundamentalists but i am not offended by their prosyletizing i had a few good conversations with some witnesses who came to my door i didn t switch my beliefs but for those at home who maybe need a friendly face to invite them somewhere the witnesses provide a wonderful service you may have been conditioned to believe that religion is unimportant and witnessing is obnoxious but why are you afraid you might be converted and become one of them that you will be swept up in fundamentalism that you will become a weirdo friendship s a two way street you must respect your friend all of him including his beliefs if you want the friendship to continue joe moore
soc.religion.christian	re bible unsuitable for new christians true also read peter peter warns that the scriptures are often hard to understand by those who are not learned on the subject joe moore
soc.religion.christian	re need a book in article apr athos rutgers edu bassili cs arizona edu amgad z bassili writes i appreciate if anyone can point out some good books about the dead sea scrolls of qumran thanks in advance please reply by e mail at bassili cs arizona edu ok boys girls hang on here we go christ s eternal gospel robinson robinson the dead sea scrolls the nt ws lasor james the just in habakkuk pesher rh eisenman maccabees quamran rh eisenman dead sea scrolls uncovered eisenman wise dead sea scrolls deception baigent leigh jesus riddle of dead sea scrolls b thiering jesus scroll d joyce happy reading welcome aboard a poor wayfaring stranger some say a strange one in a strange land disclaimer not my employer s opinion probably not your s either and only mine when authorized try roger holfeltz stortek com note that this list covers quite a variety of views as such it s probably a good one but if you want to read just one book beware that a couple of the books on that list represent views that are shall we say unusual clh
soc.religion.christian	saint story st aloysius gonzaga heres a story of a saint that people might like to read i got it from a the morning star and am posting it with the permission of the editor saint aloysius gonzaga the patron of youth the marquis gonzaga had high aspirations for his son the prince gonzage he wanted him to become a famous brave and honoured soldier after all he must carry on the great family name of gonzaga of course he was to become far more famous brave and honoured than his father could ever have imagined though not in the manner expected saint aloysius mother was a woman who received immense joy from praying to god and meditating on the divine mysteries and the life of our lord she had little time for the pleasures of this life as saint aloysius grew he began to resemble his mother more than his father saint aloysius had learned numerous expressions from his father s soldiers but the moment he discovered that they were vulgar he fainted from shock this shows his immense hatred of sin what an example for us of the contempt we must have for sin about the time of his first holy communion which he received from the archbishop of milan charles borromeo whom himself became a great saint he con secrated his purity to god and asked the blessed virgin to protect his innocence for life he wanted to share our lord s suffering to show his reciprocal love he started by denying his passions he avoided eating the finest foods wearing the best clothes and would put pieces of wood in his bed in order to mortify himself for the love of god while he was in his early teens his father sent him and his younger brother to the court of the spanish king phillip obediently he set out to make the best of it he mixed in well with the people of the royal court for he was handsome polite intelligent and always had something interesting to say not long before this time the great soldier saint saint igna tius of loyola had founded the society of jesus the jesuits towards which saint aloysius began to have a yearning when he finally told his father the marquis flew into a rage and forbade his son to become a priest after a short time his father sent him to the great cities in order that he be tempted away from the priesthood but even through these trials saint aloysius grew in his desire for the religious life and was strengthened in the virtue of purity the marquis plans were obviously failing so he con fronted his son will you or will you not obey me and forget this foolish ness i will not father was the in evitable reply then leave from my sight and don t return until you change your mind with tears clouding his eyes the saint left the room to pray tell me lord what am i to do tell me tell me he knelt down to flagellate himself as he had done several times before but this time he was seen the onlooker rushed to the marquis this at last brought the proud man to his senses the lord wants him the lord can have him he gave his consent for his son to become a jesuit after some years at the end of the sixteenth century a terri ble epidemic broke out in rome all the hospitals were full and could house no more so the jesuits opened their own saint aloy sius did all he could in the hospitals particularly to prepare the dying for a holy death saint aloysius himself contracted the plague from carrying and nursing the sick for three months he lay with a burning fever and finally on june st he gave his soul to the lord while gazing at a crucifix let us invoke saint aloysius as our patron and imitate him in his humility purity and confidence in prayer saint aloysius gonzaga pray for us brendan arthur prayer is as necessary to a person consecrated to the service of others as a sword is to a soldier god bless from simon lines simon p shields programmer viva cristo rey monash university college gippsland ph jhs switchback rd churchill fax
soc.religion.christian	re when are two people married in god s eyes in a previous article randerso acad sahs uth tmc edu robert anderson says i would like to get your opinions on this when exactly does an engaged couple become married in god s eyes some say that if the two have publically announced their plans to marry have made their vows to god and are unswervingly committed to one another i realize this is a subjective qualifier they are married joined in god s sight i have discussed this with my girlfriend often i consider myself married though legally i am not neither of us have been with other people sexually although we have been with each other we did not have sexual relations until we decided to marry eventually for financial and distance reasons we will not be legally married for another year and a half until then i consider myself married for life in god s eyes i have faith that we have a strong relationship and have had for over years and will be full of joy when we marry in a church first however we must find a church we will be living in a new area when we marry and will need to find a new church community anyway i feel that if two people commit to marriage before god they are married and are bound by that commitment rick szanto polk speakers rock computer engineer mac s suck nothing personal case western zeta psi rules reserve university
soc.religion.christian	pastoral authority there is some controversy in my denomination as to what authority is vested in the pastor i am still forming my opinion i am solicing opinions and references for what that is how much and how it should be used as a general reference i would not exclude responses from different denominations based on biblical teachings but you have to understand our church is independent protestant and likely to be much different from those that follow ecclesiastical authority in the church we may need to discuss the roles of deacons and elders thanks for your replies answer not a fool according to his folly lest thou also be like unto him answer a fool according to his folly lest he be wise in his own conceit proverbs
soc.religion.christian	am i going to hell i have stated before that i do not consider myself an atheist but definitely do not believe in the christian god the recent discussion about atheists and hell combined with a post to another group to the effect of you will all go to hell has me interested in the consensus as to how a god might judge men as a catholic i was told that a jew buddhist etc might go to heaven but obviously some people do not believe this even more see atheists and pagans i assume i would be lumped into this category to be hellbound i know you believe only god can judge and i do not ask you to just for your opinions thanks tim
soc.religion.christian	re certainty and arrogance my last article included this quote if any substantial number of talk religion misc readers read some wittgenstein of the postings would disappear if they understood some wittgenstein would disappear michael l siemon someone called boundary wrote this quote seems a little arrogant don t you think there is a convention called a smiley which looks like this it is supposed to look like a sideways smiley face and indicates that the preceding comment is supposed to be funny and i ll note that i have participated on talk religion misc for over five years i d say mr siemon was not too far off in the meat of his reply mr boundary serves up an excellent example of what i meant by there is no way out of the loop i wrote that human brains are infested with sin and can be trusted only in limited circumstances in reply mr boundary wrote i would beg to differ with you here the properly formed conscience can be trusted virtually all the time which just moves the problem back one level how do you tell if your conscience is properly formed the only way to tell is to presuppose that you are capable of judging the formed ness of your own conscience in other words you can only be sure that your conscience is properly formed if you assume that your evaluation can be trusted assuming your conclusions saves you a lot of time i ll grant but it s not a valid way of reasoning unless you are infallible your judgements about your own thinking cannot be certain therefore it is not possible to be certain your conscience is properly formed whatever that is supposed to mean mr boundary then gives another paradigm example of the problem now you have hit on the purpose of the church it is by necessity the infallible interpreter of divine revelation without the church christianity would be nothing more than a bunch of little divisive sects the church is by necessity the infallible interpreter of divine revelation how do you know presumably you believe this because of some argument or another how do you know that the argument contains no mistakes you write therefore although our minds are finite and susceptible to error our competence in arriving at inductive insights gives confidence in our ability to distinguish what is true from what is not true even in areas not subject to the experimental method but there is a huge difference between confidence in our ability to distinguish what is true from what is not true and infallible i am confident about a lot of things but absolute certainty is a very long way from confident this discussion is about the arrogance of claiming to be absolutely certain really go check the subject line saying you are absolutely certain is significantly different than saying you are confident when you say that you are confident that invites people to ask why except in very limited circumstances when you say that you are absolutely certain it invites people to dismiss you as someone who does not have any idea of his own fallibility i have yet to meet anyone who believed in a knowably infallible source of truth who would admit the possibility of errors in his reasoning all of them every last one has claimed that he was himself infallible the result has been to convince me that they had no idea what was going on darren f provine kilroy gboro rowan edu this particular discussion may not be entirely relevant to the original criticism i get the feeling that the original poster regarded as arrogant the very idea that there are right and wrong answers in religion and that the difference can have eternal consequences when i say that i think there is a hell and that he is at least in significant danger of ending up there i will admit that as you say the reasoning processes i used to reach this are fallible thus at least in principle i could be wrong but these basic facts are clearly enough taught in the bible that i think it s unlikely that i m misinterpreting it in order to get this level of confidence i ve tried to frame my statement sufficiently carefully as to sidestep a number of the more controversial issues i haven t for example said that all non christians will definitely end up in hell and i haven t attempted to describe hell in any detail i have a feeling that my view is going to be regarded as arrogant and intolerant even though i acknowledge that i m fallible and so there s some chance i m wrong don t get me wrong i think there are a lot of genuinely arrogant christians and often criticism of us is justified but in at least some cases i think the criticisms constitute blaming the messenger if the universe is set up so that there are eternal consequences for certain decisions it s not my fault i m just telling it the way i think it is you may think god is immoral for setting things up that way it s one of the critiques of christianity that i find it most difficult to respond to but it s not arrogance for me to tell what i think is the truth clh
soc.religion.christian	re latest on branch davidians in apr geneva rutgers edu aaron binah cc brandeis edu scott aaron writes in article apr geneva rutgers edu conditt tsd arlut utexas edu paul conditt wrote i think it s really sad that so many people put their faith in a mere man even if he did claim to be the son of god and or a prophet i ll pose a question here that s got me thinking what distinguishes true religion from cults i m speaking generally here not specifially about christianity jerry falwell was on good morning america on tuesday ostensibly to answer this question basically he said that true religion follows a message whereas a cult follows a person but then christianity is a cult because the message of christianity is the person of jesus so what distinguishes for example the branch davidian cult from the presbyterian church doctrinal differences don t answer the question imho so don t use them as an answer as far as i can see one of the big differences between davidians and christians is in who they follow i have sometimes tried to put myself in the feet of one of jesus s disciples basically they gave up a lot career possibly family and well a whole bunch to follow jesus so what is the difference it is quite plain jesus was good and david koresh was not the problem is i think is that we try to legislate what is good and what is bad in terms of principles for instance there are thousands of laws in the u s governing what is legal and what is not often it is hard to bring people to justice because it is not possible to find a legal way to do it if only we could trust judges to be just then we could tell them to administer justice fairly and justice would be followed but since judges don t always get it right we have a complicated system involving precedent and bunches of other stuff which attempt to make the imperfect the justice of man into something perfect but what i hear about the justice system in the u s tells me that quite the opposite is true there is also a problem that we tend to judge the presentation more than the material being presented so we might consider a ranting christian to be bad but an eloquent person from another religion to be good this goes along with the american desire to protect the constitution at all costs even if it allows people to do bad things i think that it is the message that is important if a man is presenting a false message even if he is ever ever so mild mannered then that man is performing a tremendous disservice i know that i am rambling here i guess that what i am trying to say is that we shouldn t be looking for principles that tell us why the davidians got it wrong it is not wrong to follow and worship a person but it is important to choose the right person it is simple choose jesus and you got it right choose anyone else and you got it wrong why because jesus is the begotten son of god and nobody else is jesus was without sin and nobody else was stephen
soc.religion.christian	serbian genocide work of god are the serbs doing the work of god hmm i ve been wondering if anyone would ever ask the question are the governments of the united states and europe not moving to end the ethnic cleansing by the serbs because the targets are muslims can does god use those who are not following him to accomplish tasks for him esp those tasks that are punative james sledd no cute sig but i m working on it
soc.religion.christian	goodbye but not forever praise god i m writing everyone to inform you that i have been accepted to the doctor of psychology program at fuller theological seminary in pasadena ca i ve been working long and hard to try to get in there and have said many hours of prayer i m very excited for this opportunity but also very nervous about it i d appreciate the prayers of the readers of this group for my preparation for school this summer and for my career as a graduate student i d also appreciate any information any of the readers of this group might have about fuller pasadena or california in general like good places to have fun good churches to check out or anything else that might be good for me to know also if anyone knows of any foundations that might have funding or scholarship money available please let me know of course if you wish to make a personal contribution the contract for my current job is over at the end of april i ll be taking a couple classes at ut this summer and then i ll be moving to pasadena hopefully i ll be able to get net access next fall although fuller doesn t have it itself i ve enjoyed the interesting discussions and i commend everyone for their earnest search to please god thanks to our moderator for providing such a wonderful service and in doing a great job of running this news group may god bless you all vaya con dios mi amigas y amigos paul paul conditt internet conditt titan tsd arlut utexas edu applied research phone fax laboratories fedex burnet road austin texas university of texas postal p o box austin texas austin texas the most wonderful place in texas to live ttttttttttttttt ttt ttt ttt ttt ttttttttttttt texas tech lady raiders tt ttt tt swc champions ttt ncaa national champions ttt ttttttt
soc.religion.christian	re did he really rise in article apr geneva rutgers edu gt b prism gatech edu boundary writes anecedotal material which ultimately shows that but from my experience the modern jew is not known for his proselytism a rabbi once told me that theres is a talmudic tradition that someone who wanted to convert to judaism was to be turned away three times if they continue then they were accepted
soc.religion.christian	re losing your temper is not a christian trait sheila patterson writes i always suspected that i was human too it is the desire to be like christ that often causes christians to be very critical of themselves and other christians i d like to remind people of the withering of the fig tree and jesus driving the money changers et al out of the temple i think those were two instances of christ showing anger as part of his human side jeff johnson jcj tellabs com
soc.religion.christian	re maybe i have some qualms about postings like this you might want to engage in a bit more conversation with joel before deluging someone who doesn t expect it with cards clh i d suggest that more than some qualms are in order without knowing anything about the situation it is impossible to evaluate the appropriateness of writing some folks will check others with more zeal than time may not imho requests of this nature should be made only for oneself or for someone who knows and approves of the idea otherwise it is intrusive and disrespectful of the individual revdak netcom com
soc.religion.christian	re prayers and advice requested on family problem cloak yourself in god s sustaining and abiding love pray pray pray pray for your brother that he will assume the godly role that is his pray for your sister in law the what ever is driving her to separate your brother and herself from the the rest of the family will be healed pray for god to give you the peace in the knowledge that you may not be able to fix it from your description it would appear that it will require devine intervention and the realization by your brother as to what his responsibilities are seek godly counsel from your pastor or other spiritually mature believer know always that he is akways there as a conforter and will give you wisdon and direction as you call on him
soc.religion.christian	help in a prior article lmvec westminster ac uk william hargreaves writes now i am of the opinion that you a saved through faith alone not what you do as taught in romans but how can i square up in my mind the teachings of james in conjunction with the lukewarm christian being spat out if you agree that good works have a role somewhere you will generally find yourself in one of two camps faith works salvation or faith salvation works either works are required for salvation or faith will inevitably result in good works i am also of the opinion that salvation is by faith alone based on ephesians and romans i also conclude that james when read in context is teaching bullet above when james speaks of justification i would claim that he is not speaking of god declaring the believing sinner innocent in his sight paul s use of the word instead he is speaking of the sinner s profession of faith being justified or proven by the display of good works also according to james the abscence of such works is evidence for a dead or useless faith which fails to save james is not a problem for the doctrine of salvation by faith if it is teaching works would have their place not as merit toward salvation but as evidence of true faith regards dave weaver he is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to weaver chdasic sps mot com gain what he cannot lose jim elliot there are of course a number of other possibilities the reformers believed salvation faith works some of us suspect that the three things are tied up together in such a way that no diagram of this form can do it justice clh
soc.religion.christian	re when are two people married in god s e in article apr athos rutgers edu randerso acad sahs uth tmc edu robert anderson writes i would like to get your opinions on this when exactly does an engaged couple become married in god s eyes not if they are unwilling to go through a public marriage ceremony nor if they say they are willing but have not actually done so how do you know this
soc.religion.christian	re the arrogance of christians if i don t think my belief is right and everyone else s belief is wrong then i don t have a belief this is simply what belief means unfortunatly this seems to be how christians are taught to think when it comes to their religion some take it to the extreme and say that their religion is the only one and if you don t accept their teachings then you won t be saved it takes quite a bit of arrogance to claim to know what god thinks wants especially when it s based upon your interpretation of a book the logic in the above statement is faulty in that it assumes two people with differing beliefs can t both be correct it s all about perception no two people are exactly alike no two people perceive everything in the same way i believe that there is one truth call it god s truth a universal truth or call it what you will i don t believe god presents this truth i think it is just there and it s up to you to look for and see it through prayer meditation inspir ation dreams or whatever just because people may perceive this truth differently it doesn t mean one is wrong and the other is right as an example take the question is the glass half empty or half full you can have two different answers which are contradictory and yet both are correct so for your belief to be true does not require everyone else s belief to be wrong if a person has what they believe is convincing evidence that god will save only christians it s hard to see how you can criticize them for arrogance for saying so it could be that they re wrong but i hardly see that it s arrogance let s look at this a bit closer suppose we had some combination of prophets and messiahs that taught us things but didn t say anything about exclusivity if we believe them and then add and anybody who believes anything else is damned then you could well criticize us for arrogance but in this case the exclusivity is in the message as it comes from the prophets etc so we could be wrong in believing it but i don t see how we can be called arrogant maybe the world isn t a soft place maybe certain choices actually do have eternal consequences i can see calling the christian message arrogant in a certain sense though only in the same sense as calling the law of gravitation arrogant because it doesn t give us any option over whether we fall if we jump off a building but not christians for passing it on given that they believe it the complaints i can see making are that christians are wrong or that god is arrogant clh
soc.religion.christian	re proof of resurection in article apr geneva rutgers edu reedr cgsvax claremont edu writes following christ from captialist who have polluted the enviorment in strict obedience to the gensis command to subdue the earth to nazi s who have justly punished the jews for the killing christ it is funny how this one little quote from genesis is treated by certain anti christians as if christians have been given a firm command to destroy the earth you could prove almost anything by taking little quotes out of context from the bible it s a big book you know i doubt you could find a single case of a anti ecological action taking place specifically because teh perpetrator was motivated by a christian belief as for the nazis they were motivated by german nationalism not by christianity in fact they despised christianity as a weak pacifist religion and were much more keen on pagan glorification of strength and warfare they killed the jews because they were not germans not because they were christ killers they were just as keen on killing the other non german ethnic minority the romanies or gypsies matthew huntbach
soc.religion.christian	re sspx schism bob van cleef writes if the papacy is infallible and this is a matter of faith then the pope cannot be wrong if on the other hand this is not a matter of faith but a matter of church law then we should still obey as the pope is the legal head of the church in other words given the doctrine of infallibility we have no choice but to obey this is a primary problem in the church today what you are saying is more or less heresy you might call it infallibilism it s the idea that the pope is always right in everything he says or does this is virtually all over the place especially in this country the pope is only infallible under certain very specific and well defined conditions when these conditions are not met he can make mistakes he can make big mistakes a couple historical examples come to mind bishop robert grosseteste was perhaps the greatest product of the english catholic church at one point during his career the reigning pope decided to install one of his nephews in an english see bishop grosseteste said that this would happen over his dead body though maybe not in so many words you have to treat popes with respect even when they are wrong the problem was that this nephew would just collect the income of the see and probably never set foot there this would deprive the people of the see of a shepherd bishop grosseteste was quite right in what he did another example is that of pope john xxii a pope of the middle ages he decided that souls that were saved did not enjoy the beatific vision until the last judgement he decided that this should be a defined doctrine of the church though he didn t quite get around to defining it now there s no way this is compatible with catholic doctrine the pope s doctrine was criticised by many in the church he went so far as to put a number of his opponents in jail even in the end he had to admit his mistake shortly before he died he recanted his successor made the exact opposite idea a dogma of the church if you consult any of the great catholic theologians who treat of such subjects such as st robert bellarmine a doctor of the church you will find detailed discussions of whether the pope can personally fall into heresy or schism the teaching of all such theologians is that the commands of a pope must be resisted if they are to the detriment of the catholic faith a pope s authority is given for the purpose of building up the catholic church commands in conflict with this purpose have no legal or moral force
soc.religion.christian	re the arrogance of christians in article apr geneva rutgers edu hayesstw risc unisa ac za steve hayes writes a similar analogy might be a medical doctor who believes that a blood transfusion is necessary to save the life of a child whose parents are jehovah s witnesses and so have conscientious objections to blood transfusion the doctor s efforts to persuade them to agree to a blood transfusion could be perceived to be arrogant in precisely the same way as christians could be perceived to be arrogant the truth or otherwise of the belief that a blood transfusion is necessary to save the life of the child is irrelevant here what matters is that the doctor believes it to be true and could be seen to be trying to foce his beliefs on the parents and this could well be perceived as arrogance let me carry that a step further most doctors would not claim to be infallible indeed they would generally admit that they could conceivably be wrong e g that in this case a blood tranfusion might not turn out to be necessary after all however the doctors would have enough confidence and conviction to claim out of genuine concern that is is necessary as fallible human beings they must acknowledge the possibility that they are wrong however they would also say that such doubts are not reasonable and stand by their convictions virgilio dean velasco jr department of electrical eng g and applied physics cwru graduate student roboticist in training and q wannabee bullwinkle that man s intimidating a referee my boss is a not very well he doesn t look like one at all jewish carpenter
soc.religion.christian	re help in article apr geneva rutgers edu lmvec westminster ac uk william hargreaves writes hi everyone i m a commited christian that is battling with a problem i know that romans talks about how we are saved by our faith not our deeds yet hebrews and james say that faith without deeds is useless saying you fools do you still think that just believing is enough now if someone is fully believing but there life is totally lead by themselves and not by god according to romans that person is still saved by there faith my yes and no i do not believe the above scenario is not possible either they are believing and living in at least some part led by god else they are not believing intellectually but waiting is not enough especially important to remember is that no one can judge whether you are so committed nor can you judge someone else i guess the closest we can come to know someone s situation is listening to their own statements this can be fallible as is our sense of communion one with another but then there is the bit which says that god preferes someone who is cold to him i e doesn t know him condemned so a lukewarm christian someone who knows and believes in god but doesn t make any attempt to live by the bible regarding this passage we need to remember that this is a letter to a church at laodicea people who are of the body of christ rev he talks about their works a translation could say that he says their lack of concern makes him sick to the point of throwing up now i am of the opinion that you a saved through faith alone not what you do as taught in romans but how can i square up in my mind the teachings of james in conjunction with the lukewarm christian being spat out right saving is by faith alone except that faith does not come alone if you catch the two meanings i can offer the explanation that jesus would that we were either on fire for him or so cold we knew we were not in his will and thus could be made aware of our separation this is admonishment for his children not eternal damnation answer not a fool according to his folly lest thou also be like unto him answer a fool according to his folly lest he be wise in his own conceit proverbs
soc.religion.christian	re cell church discussion group jodfishe silver ucs indiana edu joseph dale fisher writes please define cell church i missed it somewhere in the past when this was brought up before in a cell church the fundamental building block is the cell group a small group of no more than believers the small groups are responsible for the ministry of the church evangelism and discipleship the emphasis is on relationships not on programs and both the evangelism and the discipling are relationship based this will probably raise more questions than it answered but that s it in a nutshell jon reid he is no fool who gives what he cannot keep reid cs uiuc edu to gain what he cannot lose jim elliot
soc.religion.christian	re proof of resurection in article apr geneva rutgers edu reedr cgsvax claremont edu writes we also cannot fail to note the intense suffering a devastation which has been wrecked on our world because of christians who were certain they were following christ from captialist who have polluted the enviorment in strict obedience to the gensis command to subdue the earth to nazi s who have justly punished the jews for the killing christ as well as the other progroms the innocent women who were burned alive in accordance with you shall not allow a witch to live the moslems who were killed in the crusades the god fearing men destroyed by the inquistion the religious wars in spain france england etc christianity has undoubtedly caused the most suffering and needless loss of life by individuals whose certainity that they were following the instructions therein was unquestionable there is much to grieve randy very interesting but i also believe that you have presented a misleading argument christianity is not the cause of the massacres and horrific injustices that you relate rather they are the fault of people who misunderstand jesus christ s message and modify it to suit their own beliefs and aims rather than alter their ambitions to be more in line with those presented as desirable in the new testament with every truthful and good message that carries authority or implied authority comes the inevitable fact that some many people will understand it in a distorted way with inevitable consequences the bible s message is that we are to love all people and that all people are redeemable it preaches a message of repentance and of giving unfortunately all people have deceitful hearts and are capable of turning this message around and contorting it in sometimes unbelievable ways this is also a fundamental christian doctrine one of the problems is that you look at the world through the eyes of western history i think that you will find many many cases of massacres that were instigated by people who never claimed they were christian i am not saying this to justify the massacres that were but i am merely pointing you to a tendency which is present in humans already consider the world without christianity i doubt that we would have the same freedoms in the countries in which we live if it wasn t for the peaceful doctrines of jesus christ perhaps we would even be confronted by a very harsh religion i won t name any here though one comes to mind which would not even allow us the freedom of speech to debate such subjects point the blame at inherent human tendencies of thirst for power greed and hatred please don t point the blame at a message which preaches fundamental giving and denial in love for others yours in christ andrew mcveigh p s i believe that a line of questioning like you presented is strangely enough compatible with becoming a christian certainly christianity encourages one to question the behaviour of the world and especially christians i praise god for jesus christ and the fact that we can doubt our beliefs and still come back to god and be forgiven time and time again andrew mcveigh
soc.religion.christian	re catholic church poland in article apr geneva rutgers edu s let rug nl m m zwart writes i m writing a paper on the role of the catholic church in poland after church concerning the abortion law religious education at schools there was an article on clari news religion in the last few days about a polish tribunal decision it said that crucifixes and religious classes in public schools were okay and that children who did not want to take religion class could not be forced to take an ethics class as a substitute larry henling lmh shakes caltech edu
soc.religion.christian	re did he really rise in article apr geneva rutgers edu reedr cgsvax claremont edu writes the basic problem with your argument is your total and complete reliance on the biblical text luke s account is highly suspect i would refer you to the hermeneia commentary on acts moreover luke s account is written at least years after the fact in the meantime everyone he mentions has died and attempts to find actual written sources behind the text have come up with only the we section of the later portion of acts as firmly established moreover pauls account of some of the events in acts as recorded in galatians fail to establish the acts accounts even if there was no independent proof that luke s account was valid i find it strange that you would take the negation of it as truth without any direct historical evidence at least that you ve mentioned to back it up the assertion was made unequivocally that no christian ever sufferred for their faith by believing in the resurrection luke s account suggests otherwise and in the absence of direct eyewitnesses who can claim that luke is mistaken then i suggest that this unequivocal assertion is suspect randy john g ata technical consultant internet ata hfsi com hfs inc va uucp uunet hfsi ata westpark drive ms voice mclean va fax i think the original claim may have been somewhat more limited than this it was an answer to the claim that the witnesses couldn t be lying because they were willign to suffer for their beliefs thus it s not necessary to show that no christian ever suffered for believing in the resurrection rather the issue is whether those who witnessed it did i do agree that the posting you re responding to shows that there can be liberal as well as conservative dogmatism clh
soc.religion.christian	re sabbath admissions of i have been following this thread on talk religion soc religion christian bible study and here with interest i am amazed at the different non biblical argument those who oppose the sabbath present one question comes to mind especially since my last one was not answered from scripture maybe clh may wish to provide the first response there is a lot of talk about the sabbath of the tc being ceremonial answer this since the tc commandments is one law with ten parts on what biblical basis have you decided that only the sabbath portion is ceremonial or you say that the seventh day is the sabbath but not applicable to gentile christians does that mean the sabbath commandment has been annulled references please if god did not intend his requirements on the jews to be applicable to gentile christians why did he make it plain that the gentiles were now grafted into the commonwealth of israel darius acts rom col gal i believe we ve gotten into a loop at this point this is one of those classic situations where both sides think they have clear scriptural support and there s no obvious argument that is going to change anybody s mind i don t think we re going anything but repeating ourselves clh
soc.religion.christian	none i am satan
soc.religion.christian	re did he really rise in article apr athos rutgers edu oser fermi wustl edu scott oser writes and the two simplest refutations are these what impact the only record of impact comes from the new testament i have no guarantee that its books are in the least accurate and that the recorded impact actually happened i find it interesting that no other contemporary source records an eclipse an earthquake a temple curtain being torn etc the earliest written claim we have of jesus resurrection is from the pauline epistles none of which were written sooner than years after the supposed event first off i d say that the impact if right before your eyes that we are even discussing this is a major impact in and of itself further the early church bears testimony to the impact it seems probable that no one displayed the body of jesus because no one knew where it was i personally believe that the most likely explanation was that the body was stolen by disciples or by graverobbers don t bother with the point about the guards it only appears in one gospel and seems like exactly the sort of thing early christians might make up in order to counter the grave robbing charge the new testament does record that jews believed the body had been stolen if there were really guards they could not have effectively made this claim as they did of course they knew where it was don t forget that jesus was seen by both the jews and the romans as a troublemaker pilate was no fool and didn t need the additional headaches of some fishermen stealing jesus body to make it appear he had arisen since jesus was buried in the grave of a man well know to the sanhedrin to say that they didn t know where he was buried begs the question now you say that you think that the disciples stole the body but think on this a moment would you die to maintain something you knew to be a deliberate lie if not then why do you think the disciples would now i m not talking about dying for something you firmly believe to be the truth but unbeknown to you it is a lie many have done this no i m talking about dying by beheading stoning crucifixion etc for something you know to be a lie thus you position with regards to the disciples stealing the body seems rather lightweight to me as for graverobbers why risk the severe penalties for grave robbing over the body of jesus he wasn t buried with great riches so again this is an argument that can be discounted that leaves you back on square one what happened to the body ihl gene the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the university of north carolina at chapel hill the campus office for information technology or the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu or again let me comment that the most plausible non christian scenario and the one typically suggested by sceptics who are knowledgeable about the nt is that the resurrection was a subjective event and the empty tomb stories are a result of accounts growing in the telling clh
soc.religion.christian	re hell in article apr athos rutgers edu dmn kepler unh edu there s a seeker born every minute writes that would depend on what heaven is like if god is a king and an eternity in heaven consists of giving thanks and praise to the king i might opt for hell i read a lovely account of a missionary trying to but then on the other hand if you really loved that king more than you did yourself and he loved you to the point of assuring you that the eternal time spent with him would be eternal ecstasy would you really opt for that choice dana john g ata technical consultant internet ata hfsi com hfs inc va uucp uunet hfsi ata westpark drive ms voice mclean va fax
soc.religion.christian	re did he really rise in article apr athos rutgers edu reedr cgsvax claremont edu writes in article apr athos rutgers edu luomat alleg edu timothy j luoma writes in article apr athos rutgers edu suppose you were part of the christian consipracy which was going to tell people that christ had risen never mind the stoning the being burned alive the possible crucifixion let s just talk about a scourging the whip that would be used would have broken pottery metal no one was ever flogged beaten burned fed to the lions or killed in any other way because of a belief in the resurrection sorry to disappoint you i think you are vastly oversimplifying things we know that early christians suffered totures because of their witness to christ for example act his speech persuaded them they called the apostles in and had them flogged then they ordered them not to speak in the name of jesus and let them go act the apostles left the sanhedrin rejoicing because they had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the name it appears that the jewish rulers of that time had a particular aversion to even hearing jesus s name act we gave you strict orders not to teach in this name he said yet you have filled jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us guilty of this man s blood finally the first apostle s death james of zebedee was certainly not by rome s hand any more than the first martyr stephen the idea of resurrection is one which can be found in a host of different forms in the religions of antiquity the problem was not the resurrection which was a mediorce issue for a tiny fragment of the jewish population the problem was that if one believed in the resurrection then one must believe in jesus as truly being the son of god and what he stood for and preached during his ministry on earth that would have been extremely difficult for some people especially those that had plotted to kill him randy john g ata technical consultant internet ata hfsi com hfs inc va uucp uunet hfsi ata westpark drive ms voice mclean va fax
soc.religion.christian	re the arrogance of christians in a previous article phs d vaxc cc monash edu au says in article apr athos rutgers edu aa freenet carleton ca mark baker writes to demand scintific or rational proof of god s existence is to deny god s existence since neither science nor reason can in their very nature prove anything are you asking us to believe blindly you are trying to deny that part of us that makes us ask the question does god exist i e self awareness and reason if we do not use our ability to reason we become as ignorant as the other animals on this earth does god want us to be like that i am asking you to believe in things not visible i don t know if this is believeing blindly or not i m not sure how blindness comes into it i do not deny reason indeed i insist upon it but reason only draws conclusions from evidence if you decide in advance that your reason will act only on the evidence of the five physical senses then you cut reason off from any possibility of reaching a conclusion outside the physical sphere beyond the rather provocative if inconclusive conclusion that the physical sphere is not self explanatory christians claim that they have received a different kind of evidence which they call faith and which is a gift of god that is this evidence is the evidence of a thing which chooses to reveal or hide itself the evidence of the senses cannot tell you is such a ting exists reasoning on the evidence of the senses won t help either but christians do reason of the evidence of faith and do claim that this evidence is wholly consistent with the evidence of the other senses and indeed that the evidence of these other senses is part of god s revelation of himself to us it is not necessarilly the case however that knowledge of a god must come through this route there may be other senses than the physical ones providing evidence of non physical realities there may of course be physical realities of a type for which we have no corresponding senses for all we know these senses if they exist may provide valid evidence for reason to work on and as with all senses these senses may be impaired in some people that is they may be spiritually blind in this sense belief in god becomes an act of sight and it is disbelief which is blind you are right that science and reason cannot prove anything however if we do not use them we can only then believe on faith alone and since we can only use faith why is one picture of god e g hinduism any less valid than another e g christianity faith as i have said is not opposed to reason it is simply a new source of evidence on which reason may operate it is clear that human beings have many systems for explaining the evidence of the physical senses and similarly there are many systems for explaining the evidence provided by faith religious believers in general and christians in particular use reason to help sift through the evidence to come to a clearer understanding of the evidence provided by faith science claims with good reason to be the most valid system for explaining the physical universe and christianity claims also with good reason to be the most valid system possessed of the best evidence for explaining gods revelations of himself to man if you doubt that christians use reason read this newsgroup for a while and you will see rational debate aplenty mark baker the task is not to cut down jungles but aa freenet carleton ca to irrigate deserts c s lewis
soc.religion.christian	re tuff to be a christian someone writing anonymously asks would you have become a christian if you had not been indoctrinated by your parents you probably never learned about any other religion to make a comparative study and therefore i claim you are brain washed i did become a christian without having been indoctrinated by my parents and having studied buddhism fairly carefully and other religions to a lesser degree i made a decision to accept the truth claims of christianity after having given it a lot of thought i have to point out that the process was not purely a cold rational one there was a powerful experiential element as well also my calvinist should rest assured that i don t lay any of the responsibility for the outcome my conversion on anyone but god it took me years and years for this all to happen because i had many of the objections that this poster puts forward i grew up in the shadow of generic authoritarian conservative denomination and i knew that that wasn t a way of life that i could adopt but i gradually learned not to tar all of christianity with the same brush and realized quite suddenly one cold winter night that i accepted what i had heretofore rejected i am quite certain that i was not brain washed bill hovingh
soc.religion.christian	re hebrew grammar texts choose english or german phil sells writes probably a tired old horse but maybe with a slightly different twist i wanted to know if there are any good english language texts for learning ancient hebrew and how these compare with german educational texts qualitywise if anybody has an idea i can t figure out if i should buy one here for later study or wait until i get back to the u s my impression is that for advanced work you will be much better off with german reference works lexicons concordances especially for a first time encounter my personal preference would be to deal with a textbook written in my native language but if you know german and are in germany pick up all the reference books you think you can handle i only know these works by reputation since my german is most rusty but i d look at the following books koehler s lexicon mandeldern s concordance the jenni westermann theological dictionary of the ot what s it like at divinity schools or seminaries in the states is there a lot of language instruction done i really don t have a basis for comparison the amount of language instruction available at us seminaries varies widely mostly depending on the denominational heritage of the school presbyterian and reformed seminaries probably place a lot more emphasis on the biblical languages than others of course any divinity school that has a doctoral program in biblical studies is going to have extensive language resources but there are quite a few masters degree granting seminaries here at which the attitude seems to be more well if you re really interested we ll give you a semester long course but we don t understand why the pattern here at the louisville presbyterian seminary is for first year students to take intensive five week introductory language courses in each language followed by semester long exegesis courses that is hebrew in august ot exegesis in the fall greek in january nt exegesis in the spring these courses are required for graduation a third or a half of the students i d say take advanced biblical work that requires language work
soc.religion.christian	re when are two people married in god s eyes in article apr geneva rutgers edu rob ll mit edu writes i think it was lewis who said that in a wedding it s the principals that marry each other the church and the state are present merely as witnesses this is not just lewis it s a summary of standard catholic theology however this doesn t mean that the presence of those witnesses is optional except in odd situations like the standard desert island clh i originally wrote to the person who asked this question personally but decided to post the information i had on the topic i spoke to the pastor of my parish catholic recently by coincidence on this subject his explaination was that while it is possible for a couple to marry without the presence of a priest it is important to have it recognized by the church as soon as it is possible because the church recoginizes itself as a community of believers members of the church to some degree are to be held accountable to each other to be less hypothetical than that mythical couple on the desert island there are many places in the world that do not have priests availible for marriages on a regular basis therefore couples get married without the priest being present but get the priest to testify to their marriage when one comes through the area i remember a religion teacher in high school saying that the marriage ceremony is not for the benefit of the couple as much as it is for the benefit of the community thus married couples have some responsibility to the community to stay married as divorce sets a bad example for the community also the couple has vowed to become one with one another the community should be able to rely on that couple to be as one while couples may marry without witnesses they may not get anulments without a priest present an anulment is simply an admission of the church that what they had declared a marriage was not in fact a marriage at all for whatever reason so don t start getting married in the back seat of a station wagon and giving yourselves anulments a half hour later i tend to agree with the response back there that said couples become married as soon as they consumate their marriage but i would add that couples should consider their marriage consumated if they have sex whether or not they intended to be married assuming they were both willing partners to the sexual act the couple must be prepared to raise any children they may have as a result of that sexual act with the benefit of both parents sex is a commitment i believe in god s eyes but i m digressing god be with you malcusco
soc.religion.christian	orthodox list i recently had to move and forgot to update my address to the orthodox mailing list can anyone e mail me the address for changes and what exactly i have to put in caps etc please send the original subscription address also thanks ahead of time ed ed shredder sayre internet shredder telerama pgh pa us unemployment studies major
soc.religion.christian	why religion and which religion my family has never been particularly religious singing christmas carols is about the limit for them thus i ve never really believed in god and heaven although i don t actually believe that they don t exist either i m sort of undecided probably like a lot of people i guess lately i ve been thinking about it all a lot more and i wondered how religious people can be so convinced that there is a god i feel as though i want to believe but i m not used to believing things without proof just as i can t believe that there definitely isn t a god so i can t definitely believe that there is i wondered if most of you were brought up by religious families and never believed any different can anyone help me to understand how your belief and faith in god can be so strong another question that frequently crosses my mind is which religion is correct how do you choose a religion and how do you know that the christian god exists and the gods of other religions don t how do you feel about people who follow other religions how about atheists and people like me agnostics i suppose do you respect their religion and accept their beliefs as just as valid as your own isn t there contradiction between the religions how can your religion be more valid than any others do you have less respect for someone if they re not religious or if they follow a different religion than you would if they were christian also how much of the scriptures are correct are all events in the bible really supposed to have happened or are they just supposed to be stories with morals showing a true christian how to behave i generally follow most of the christian ideas which i suppose are fairly universal throughout all religions not killing stealing etc and loving my neighbour for want of a better expression the only part i find hard is the actual belief in god finally what is god s attitude to people like me who don t quite believe in him but are generally fairly good people surely not believing doesn t make me a worse person if not i find myself wondering why i so strongly want to really believe and to find a religion sorry if i waffled on a bit i was just writing ideas as they came into my head i m sure i probably repeated myself a bit too thanks for the help paul simmons there s been enough discussion about evidence for christianity recently that you may prefer to respond to this via email rather than as a posting clh
soc.religion.christian	re sabbath admissions of i wrote in response to dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu darius lecointe it s not clear how much more needs to be said other than the faq i think paul s comments on esteeming one day over another rom is probably all that needs to be said was paul a god too is an interpretation of the words of paul of higher priority than the direct word of jesus in matt paul begins romans with if someone is weak in the faith do you count yourself as one who is weak in the faith i accept that darius is doing what he does in honor of the lord i just wish he might equally accept that those who esteem all days alike are similarly doing their best to honor the lord yes but what does the bible have to say what did jesus say paul closes romans with on the other hand the person with doubts about something who eats it anyway is guilty because he isn t acting on his faith and any failure to act on faith is a sin gaus isbn have you read the ten commandments which are a portion of the law have you read jesus word in matt is there any doubt in your mind about what is right and what is sin greek hamartia missing the mark however i d like to be clear that i do not think there s unambiguous proof that regular christian worship was on the first day as i indicated there are responses on both of the passages cited whereas the ten commandments and jesus words in matt are fairly clear are they not the difficulty with both of these passages is that they are actually about something else they both look like they are talking about nnregular christian meetings but neither explicitly says and they gathered every sunday for worship we get various pieces of information but nothing aimed at answering this question matt doesn t answer your question what day christians met in their houses acts despite darius confusion is described by acts as occuring on sunday it doesn t say they gathered to see paul off but that when they were gathered for breaking bread breaking bread roughly synonymous with eating so i think the most obvious reading of this is that on the first day of every week simply means every time they gather for worship how do you unite this concept of yours with the ten commandments and jesus s word in matt i think the reason we have only implications and not clear statements is that the nt authors assumed that their readers knew when christian worship was clh or they assumed that the ten commandments and jesus word in matt actually stood for something perhaps they were strong in the faith no i don t believe that paul can overrule god however paul was writing for a largely gentile audience the law was regarded by jews at the time and now as binding on jews but not on gentiles there are rules that were binding on all human beings the so called noachic laws but they are quite minimal the issue that the church had to face after jesus death was what to do about gentiles who wanted to follow christ the decision not to impose the law on them didn t say that the law was abolished it simply acknowledged that fact that it didn t apply to gentiles thus there is no contradiction with mat as far as i can tell both paul and other jewish christians did continue to participate in jewish worship on the sabbath thus they continued to obey the law the issue was and is with gentile christians who are not covered by the law or at least not by the ceremonial aspects of it jesus dealt mostly with jews i think we can reasonably assume that mat was directed to a jewish audience he did interact with gentiles a few times e g the centurion whose slave was healed and a couple of others the terms used to describe the centurion see luke suggest that he was a god fearer i e a gentile who followed god but had not adopted the whole jewish law he was commended by jewish elders as a worthy person and jesus accepted him as such this seems to me to indicate that jesus accepted the prevailing view that gentiles need not accept the law however there s more involved if you want to compare jesus and paul on the law in order to get a full picture of the role of the law we have to come to grips with paul s apparent rejection of the law and how that relates to jesus commendation of the law at least as i read paul he says that the law serves a purpose that has been in a certain sense superceded again this issue isn t one of the abolition of the law in the middle of his discussion paul notes that he might be understood this way and assures us that that s not what he intends to say rather he sees the law as primarily being present to convict people of their sinfulness but ultimately it s an impossible standard and one that has been superceded by christ paul s comments are not the world s clearest here and not everyone agrees with my reading but the interesting thing to notice is that even this radical position does not entail an abolition of the law it still remains as an uncompromising standard from which not an iota or dot may be removed for its purpose of convicting of sin it s important that it not be relaxed however for christians it s not the end ultimately we live in faith not law while the theoretical categories they use are rather different in the end i think jesus and paul come to a rather similar conclusion the quoted passage from mat should be taken in the context of the rest of the sermon on the mount where jesus shows us how he interprets the law the not an iota or dot would suggest a rather literal reading but in fact that s not jesus approach jesus interpretations emphasize the intent of the law and stay away from the ceremonial details indeed he is well known for taking a rather free attitude towards the sabbath and kosher laws some scholars claim that mat needs to be taken in the context of st cent jewish discussions jesus accuses his opponents of caring about giving a tenth of even the most minor herbs but neglecting the things that really matter justice mercy and faith and caring about how cups and plates are cleaned but not about the fact that inside the people who use them are full of extortion and rapacity mat this and the discussion later in mat suggest that jesus has a very specific view of the law in mind and that when he talks about maintaining the law in its full strength he is thinking of these aspects of it paul s conclusion is similar while he talks about the law being superceded all of the specific examples he gives involve the ceremonial law such as circumcision and the sabbath he is quite concerned about maintaining moral standards the net result of this is that when paul talks about the law being superceded and jesus talks about the law being maintained i believe they are talking about different aspects of the law paul is embroiled in arguments about circumcision as is natural in letters responding to specific situations he s looking at the aspect of the law that is currently causing trouble the law as specifically jewish ceremonies he certainly does not intend to abolish divine standards of conduct on the other hand when jesus commends the law he seems to be talking the law in its broadest implications for morals and human relationships and deemphasizing those aspects that were later to give paul so much trouble it s unfortunate that people use the same terms in different ways but we should be familiar with that from current conflicts look at the way terms like family values take on special meaning from the current context imagine some poor historian of the future trying to figure out why family values should be used as a code word for opposition to homosexuality in one specific period in the u s i think law had taken on a similar role in the arguments paul was involved in paul was clearly not rejecting all of the jewish values that go along with the term law any more than people who concerned about the family values movement are really opposed to family values clh
soc.religion.christian	re when are two people married in god s eyes in article apr geneva rutgers edu cs mcd brunel ac uk michael c davis writes it has to do with honoring the laws of the state and also to do with how people will perceive us i e it is culturally insensitive to declare yourself married without going through a civil ceremony i would go further if a couple are unwilling to have their commitment publicly witnessed and recorded that s prima facie evidence that the commitment isn t really there michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
soc.religion.christian	immaterial afterlife was is hell real in article c zaym m u spss com goer midway uchicago edu writes i thought everyone who died simply went to sheol the notion of going to heaven is a christianization based on those parts of the nt that speak of an immaterial afterlife richard l goerwitz goer midway uchicago bitnet goer midway uchicago edu rutgers oddjob ellis goer where in the bible is there any teaching about an immaterial afterlife i was always taught that both the o t jews and the n t christians would have found the notion incomprehensible as do i don t we christians believe in the resurrection of the body or do you mean by material simply the stuff made of the elements that we know and love too much stan armstrong religious studies dept saint mary s university halifax n s armstrong husky stmarys ca att clyde watmath water dalcs armstrng
soc.religion.christian	re sspx schism from jhpb sarto budd lake nj us joseph h buehler many catholics will decide to side with the pope there is some soundness in this because the papacy is infallible so eventually some pope will straighten all this out but on the other hand there is also unsoundness in this in that in the short term the popes may indeed be wrong and such catholics are doing nothing to help the situation by obeying them where they re wrong in fact if the situation is grave enough they sin in obeying him at the very least they re wasting a great opportunity because they are failing to love christ in a heroic way at the very time that he needs this badly joe your logic excapes me if the papacy is infallible and this is a matter of faith then the pope cannot be wrong if on the other hand this is not a matter of faith but a matter of church law then we should still obey as the pope is the legal head of the church in other words given the doctrine of infallibility we have no choice but to obey bob bob van cleef peace be revc garg campbell ca us the land of garg bbs unto you bbs you might want to look at the faq on infallibility the doctrine on infallibility does not say that the pope is always right all catholic theologians acknowledge that there have been a number of occasions when the pope was wrong there appear to be two aspects to infallibility one is a general concept that in the long run the church is protected from serious error however this does not mean that it s impossible for it to take wrong turns at one time or another the more specific concept of papal infallibility is that in very specific circumstances a papal statement can be known to be infallible however a relatively small fraction of statements meet those criteria this does not absolve catholics from the duty to obey even ordinary teachings of the pope however only a few teachings are made in a way that is explicitly infallible clh
soc.religion.christian	christian s need for christianity was in article apr geneva rutgers edu mussack austin ibm com writes for example why does the universe exist at all whether there is a why or not we have to find it this is pascal s wager if there is no why and we spend our lives searching then we have merely wasted our lives which were meaningless anyway if there is a why and we suppose the universe is billion years old and suppose it lasts another billion years suppose i live to be that is nothing that is so small that it is scary so by searching for the why along with my friends here on earth if nothing else we aren t so scared i find this view of christianity to be quite disheartening and sad the idea that life only has meaning or importance if there is a creator does not seem like much of a basis for belief and the logic is also appalling god must exist because i want him to i have heard this line of reasoning before and wonder how prevalent it is certainly in modern society many people are convinced life is hopeless or so the pollsters and newscasts state but i don t see where this is a good reason to become religious if you want meaning why not just join a cult such as in waco the leaders will give you the security blanket you desire larry henling lmh shakes caltech edu
soc.religion.christian	christian parenting hi i am a sociology student and i am currently researching into young offenders i am looking at the way various groups of children are raised at home at the moment i am formlulating information on discipline within the christian home please if you are a parent in this catagory can you email me your response to the following questionaire all responses will be treated confidentially and will only be used to prepare stats ages sexes of children do you spank your kids if so how often do you use an implement to spank with if you do not spank what method of discipline do you use your age your location while under the age of did you ever commit a criminal offence how ere you disciplined as a kid thank you in advance for any reply you can make please e mail your replies rather than post them on the newsgroup i hope it is obvious that responses to this question are likely to have serious problems when used for research purposes our readers are not likely to be a random sample of christians and this form does not contain enough information to act as a stratified sample perhaps someone who is familiar with research methods might want to correspond with him clh
soc.religion.christian	re anger in article apr geneva rutgers edu news cbnewsk att com writes paul conditt writes insert deletion of paul s and aaron s discourse on anger ref galatians i don t know why it is so obvious we are not speaking of acts of the flesh we are just speaking of emotions emotions are not of themselves moral or immoral good or bad emotions just are the first step is not to label his emotion as good or bad or to numb ourselves so that we hide our true feelings it is to accept ourselves as we are as god accepts us oh but they definitely can be please look at colossians and ephesians emotions can be controlled and god puts very strong emphasis on self control otherwise why would he have paul write to timothy so much about making sure to teach self control insert deletion of remainder of paragraph re think it aaron don t be quick to judge he has forgiven those with aids he has dealt with and taken responsibility for his feelings and made appropriate choices for action on such feelings he has not given in to his anger please re think and re read for yourself joe again the issue is self control especially over feelings and actions for our actions stem from our feelings in many instances as for god giving in to his anger that comes very soon joe moore joe fisher
soc.religion.christian	re tuff to be a christian in article apr geneva rutgers edu mdbs ms uky edu no name writes bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes i don t think most people understand what a christian is it is certainly not what i see a lot in churches rather i think it should be a way of life and a total sacrafice of everything for god s sake he loved us enough to die and save us so we should do the typical statement from an irrational and brainwashed person the bible was written by some male chavnist thousands of years ago as were all of the holy books follow the parts that you think are suitable for modern life ignore the others for heaven s sake don t take it literally please leave heaven out of it for his own sake i pray that dan does take it literally because that s how god intended it to be taken dan your view of many groups appears correct from my point of view however i have found a group which is truly meeting requirements laid down by the bible on what it means to be a disciple of jesus i have no clue where wwc is but please mail me i d really like to get you in touch with them same hey we can t do it god himself inspires us to turn our lives over to him that s tuff and most people don t want to do it to be a real christian would be something for the strong to persevere at but insert deletion of ranting about other religions which obviously has gone off center of dan s original context dan i m familiar with this one you ve got a point though there are some who don t want to turn over everything and be a disciple some have no clue about it because they ve not been taught some have done exactly that and turned over everything to follow jesus some are blocked by difficult doctrine taught by uncaring pharisees and teachers of the law however jesus pointed out what it takes to follow him and to be his disciple in luke and luke my question is why do people ignore the command and treat it as optional i certainly don t have an answer to this insert deletion parting question would you have become a christian if you had not been indoctrinated by your parents you probably never learned about any other religion to make a comparative study and therefore i claim you are brain washed my parents had nothing to do with it god had and has everything to do with it as for these attacking responses i must say that i disagree with your tone and what appears to be some very judgmental statements possibly to the point of slander when talking about people not what they do please if you have a response state it instead of flying off the handle on some discourse which may have nothing truly to do with what is being discussed i m sure both dan and i would have a much happier time with your responses joe
soc.religion.christian	interdisc bible research inst hi anyone know anything about the interdisciplinary bible research institute operating out of hatfield pa i m really interested in their theories on old earth as opposed to young earth and what they believe about evolution thanks in the master charley seek god and you will find among other things piercing pleasure seek pleasure and you will find boredom disillusionment and enslavement john white eros defiled note that i do not accept discussions of evolution here as there is a dedicated group for that talk origins clh
soc.religion.christian	helphlphelphelp this is somewhat long but pleas read it boy am i glad you decided to read this i ve got a problem that i need as many people s help from as possible before i go in to the details of this let me go ahead and tell you that though it may sound it this is not one of those boy meets girl problem at least not totally like that to me anyway ok i am a year old sophmore at ncsu about years ago my family and i were vacationing at the coast in a cottage we rented across the street was ths girl who would whistle at me whenever she saw me her name in erin well we became friends that week at the beach and have been writing each other for about years there was a period of about years we lost contact but that was a while ago by the way erin lives in kansas and me in nc ok last year in one of her letters she says that she is coming back to nc to see some of her family who are gonna be there so i drove about hours to see her this is where it begins i spent the whole day with erin one of the best days of my life even though we had been writing each other we still had to get used to being in person she has got to be the most incredible woman i ever met she s one year older than me btw i mean no person in the world could ask for a better person not only was she incredibly beautiful not to mention way out of my league although i m not unattractive mind you but she had a great personality and a great sence of humor her family is one of those families who goes to church but that is about the extent of their christianity you know the kind of people but she knows i am a christian well you get the idea of what i think of her if there is ever such a thing as love at first sight i found it that was last year i kid you not when i say that i have thought about her every day since then in out letters erin and i always kid each other about not finding dates which is true for me but i know it can t be for her she has had some problems at home her folks split up and she ended up leaving school now we are at the present let me give you part of the letter i got from her last week okay now i m going to try to explain my life to you i m not going to ku anymore because something just isn t right college just wasn t clicking with me here greek life is really big here and that just isn t my way i wasn t taking any classes that truly interested me i really have no idea of what i want to do with my life i was interested in something medical physical therpy i love working with kids but it just didn t work for me at this university and my parents could tell so i m working full time at the bass store bass shoes that is and now i have a part time job at a local daycare i work in the infant room m w f i ve really enjoyed it so far it spices up my week a little bit and it s great experience as of now i m not planning on going back to school in the very near future the main reason being my indecision on what i want to study but i definatley plan on going back within the next couple of years where i have no idea except for one thing it won t be to kansas right noew i m discussing a promotion with my boss and district manager it looks like i ll train at the store i work at now for about months as assistant manager and when that s done i ll basically be given a list of stores newly or soon to be built to chose where i would like to manage i ve pretty much decided on either one of the carolinas hopeully close to the beach wouldn t it be fun to actually see each other more than once every few years what do you think abou that i would like to know your opinion this job would pretty much be temporary but it is very good pay and any thye of management experience would look good on an application or resume the company is solid and treats it employees very well good benefits bonuses medical plans plus after year of full time service they will reimburse tuition i do have school money waitng for me but this will help especially since i will probably end up paying out of state tuition wherever i go chris i really would like to know what you think of my decision i respect your opinion i ve been completely lost for what to do for soooo long that when the opportunity came along it sounded really good i do like my job although i m about sure that i want to do more with my life than reatil management but it is something i don t think earning about a year for a year old female is too bad anyway onto your career decisions i ll solve your problem right now marry me you can do your pilot thing i like to be by myself sometimes seriously or not as seriously do what will make you the happiest worry about the home life later ok well i m sure you see what has got me so uptight what do you think she meant about the marraige thing i dream at night about marrying her and then she mentions it in her letter i don t know what to think since she wants to move to the carolina s should i search out a bass store near here and aske her to come to carolina i always pick on those people who graduate from high school and get married but what does she mean i ve had a lot of stress lately with exams and also the fact that i don t date beacause no time not that much that most college women are wrapped up in the social scene with the greeks whic as a christian i can t support and here she says she doesn t like the greek thing either maybe i m so stunned because there is actually a girl that i am so attracted to paying some real attention to me i mean what if she did move to nc what would i do i m only and she i m only a sophmore struggling through classes i have prayed about this over the past year from time to time saying god if she is the right one let the situation open up could this be my sign i would do anything to get her to nc here is some moree that makes it worse should i call her i m terrible over the phone i don t even like to talk to my friends here for longer than minutes i mean what would a girl as perfect as her want with a very average guy like me i m really confused i would really appreciate any help i can get thanx chris i have a feeling that it might be more appropriate to talk with chris directly via email clh
soc.religion.christian	re sex education in article apr athos rutgers edu jviv usmi midland chevron com john viveiros writes it seems i spend a significant amount of my time correcting errors about the reliability tests for condoms and abstinence a few years ago i saw that famous study that showed a failure rate for condoms the same study showed a failure rate for abstinence that is adult couples who relied on abstinence to prevent pregnancy got pregnant in alarming numbers they didn t have the willpower to abstain and we re thinking that this will work with high school kids i am told that planned parenthood siecus style values free methods that teach contraceptive technology and advise kids how to make choices actually increase pregnancy rates i posted a long article on this a while back and will be happy to email a copy to any who are interested the article included sources to contact for information on research verifying these statements and an outstanding source for info on acquiring abstinence related curricula even in single copy quantities for home use the same research produced the results that abstinence related curricula were found to decrease pregnancy rates in teens i assume that it is reasonable to assume that the aids rate will fluctuate with the pregnancy rate the difference is not in contraceptive technology but in the values taught to the children the pp siecus curricula taught the kids that they have legitimate choices while the abstinence related curricula taught them that they did not have legitimate choices other than abstinence it is the values system that is the strongest determinent of the behavior behavior of these kids despite the better track record of abstinence related curricula they are suppressed in favor of curricula that produce an effect contrary to that desired question for further discussion as they say in the textbooks why don t we teach safe drug use to kids instead of drug abstinence isn t it because we know that a class in how to use drugs safely if you choose to use drugs would increase drug use why isn t drug abstinence education barred from schools because it teaches religion aren t we abandoning those children who will use drugs anyway and need instruction in their safe use joe kellett jkellett netcom com
soc.religion.christian	re accepting jeesus in your heart in article apr athos rutgers edu johnsd rpi edu writes in article athos rutgers edu jayne mmalt guild org jayne kulikauskas writes drugs are a replacement for christ those who have an empty spot in the god shaped hole in their hearts must do something to ease the pain i have heard this claim quite a few times does anybody here know who first came up with the god shaped hole business this is why the most effective substance abuse recovery programs involve meeting peoples spiritual needs you might want to provide some evidence next time you make a claim like this in step programs like alcoholics anonymous one of the steps involves acknowleding a higher power aa and other step abuse recovery programs are acknowledged as being among the most effective unfortunately as evidence for god this can be dismissed by stating that the same defect of personality makes substance abusers as makes people religious and the debunker could perhaps acknowledge that being religious is a better crutch than being a drug addict but still maintain that both are escapism and i suspect that there are some atheists who would find the substance abuse preferable to christianity i think that an essential problem with communication between christ ians and atheists is that as christians we necessarily see ourselves as incomplete and needing god the god shaped hole while atheists necessarily see themselves as self sufficient if the atheists are right christians are guilty of being morally weak and too cowardly to stand up for themselves if the christians are right the atheists are guilty of considerable arrogance i use the term atheist to refer to a person who has a definite conviction that there is no god as opposed to one who does not know and or does not care about god seanna watson bell northern research pray that at the end of living seanna bnr ca ottawa ontario canada of philosophies and creeds god will find his people busy opinion what opinions oh these opinions planting trees and sowing seeds no they re not bnr s they re mine i knew i d left them somewhere fred kaan let s see i spelled sowing right i got the author s name right maybe my rd iteration sig will be a keeper
soc.religion.christian	re so far so good in article c z u jxo spss com luomat alleg edu writes this may be a really dumb one but i ll ask it anyways christians know that they can never live up to the requirements of god right i may be wrong but that is my understanding but they still try to do it doesn t it seem like we are spending all of our lives trying to reach a goal we can never achieve i know that we are saved by faith and not by works but does that mean that once we are saved we don t have to do anything i think james tells us that faith without works is dead paraphrase how does this work so long as we think that good things are what we have to do rather than what we come to want to do we miss the point the more we love god the more we come to love what and whom he loves when i find that what i am doing is not good it is not a sign to try even harder romans it is a sign to seek god when i am aware of jesus presence i usually want what he wants it is his strenth his love that empowers my weakness stan armstrong religious studies dept saint mary s university halifax n s armstrong husky stmarys ca att clyde watmath water dalcs armstrng
soc.religion.christian	does just justifiable war exist hi there netters i have a question i would very much like to see some discussion on is there such a thing as a justifible war what i would love to see it some basis from scripture for either all war is wrong or some war is justifiable to get things started i would like to outline why i am asking the question in my high school days i had been quite involved in the the new zealand cadet forces this is a bit like rotc from what i understand of it but with a lot more emphasis on fun than military career training through this i became extremely enamoured of flying have become involved in the sport of gliding and have a great interest in military aviation hardware as the very best a real flyer could ask for my favourite computer games are the accurate simulations of military aircraft both past and present i became a christian about years ago and at the time rejected all military activity as immoral for me all war was in complete opposition to god s commandments to love one another especially one s enemies during the war in iraq i found myself with great excitement listening to the reports of the effectiveness of the the attacks using the aviation technology i so admire the f a stealh bomber the f f and f strike aircraft etc after the war concluded i began to really enjoy simulations based around this conflict great to go and bomb saddam s bio weapons plants in an f a on my computer or shoot down some of his mig s in an f the simulation of the death of people was a wonderful game i imagine the real pilots view the real thing in much the same way one only has to look at the language used to see that the personal impact of war is ignored a building containing people or an aircraft flown by a pilot is simply a target dead civilians are collateral damage these euphanisms are a way of removing the reality of war from the people whose support are necessary for the continued waging of war one only has to look at vietnam to see how important public opinion is now we see troops sponsored by the united nations entering somalia and the prospect of military intervention in the muslim croat serb conflict in the former yugoslavia my revulsion in particular to the siege of sarajevo and in the last few days of sorry bout spelling sebrenitsa has caused me to rethink where i stand on justifiable war i will list several wars in the last years i can look at each and say yes this may have been justifible this may not these are simply my gut reactions to each in many cases with the benefit of the impartiality history brings let me go through a few and state some of my reasons for my reaction i am not a historian so excuse any historical blunders i am working from popular history as it is known in new zealand the second world war murder of jews hitler had to be stopped massive civilian casualties on both sides dresden hiroshima nagasaki probably justifiable korean war political expansionism by north korea basically communism vs capitalism probably not justifiable vietnam as above worsened by us involvement vietnamese invasion of cambodia genocide by khmer rouge probably justifiable iraq desert storm political expansionism threat to world oil supply other factors such as genocide not sure but probably justifiable a future involvement in bosnia genocide so called ethnic cleansing emotive much tv coverage of atrocities and civilian casualties probably justifiable possible future use of nuclear weapons tactical or strategic somewhere in the world by the us in response to someone else e g libya or israel my feelings in this are simple nuclear war weapons are abhorrent i love the new zealand government s stand on banning all nuclear armed or powered warships from nz port never justifiable these are my own views i have looked at scripture and i am confused i would appreciate others view particularly those based on scripture i don t want a naaahh yer wrong i think answers thanks for your help alastair thomson phone chief programmer fax the black albatross porject university of otago department of computer science e mail alastair farli otago ac nz p o box athomson otago ac nz dunedin nextmail welcome new zealand god loved the world so much that he gave us his son to die in our place so that we may have eternal life john paraphrase
soc.religion.christian	when is a couple married i used to be a marriage commissioner for the alaska court system sort of a justice of the peace i had great difficulty with that duty i used to pray earnestly in the courthouse bathroom before the ceremonies mostly asking that the couples would come to appreciate and fulfill the true holiness and divine purpose in marriage couples who obviously didn t realize that marriage is god s institution not the state s gradually however i came to conclude that because i was acting in a strictly secular public capacity established as such by both the state and the expectations of the couples involved i was really conducting a purely secular legal civil event with no greater moral or religious implications than if i had been conducting a civil trial the couple who told me mid ceremony to please hurry it up may have helped me to this conclusion i thought i had neatly rationalized a clear and sharp distinction between marriage before god and marriage before the state until i had to deal with my own divorce keeping matthew in mind i felt that the state had no business dissolving my marriage established before god but of course it assumed jurisdiction nonetheless i would ask those of you proposing answers to this question to consider this issue s logical extension if intercourse or the mental intent of the parties or the ceremony of the church or any combination thereof establishes marriage then at what moment is it dissolved karl thoennes iii university of alaska
soc.religion.christian	divine providence vs murphy s law romans rsv we know that in everything god works for good with those who love him who are called according to his purpose murphy s law if anything can go wrong it will we are all quite familiar with the amplifications and commentary on murphy s law but how do we harmonize that with romans for that matter how appropriate is humor contradicted by scripture tim rolfe rolfe dsuvax dsu edu rolfe junior dsu edu
soc.religion.christian	re accepting jesus in your heart religion especially christianity is nothing more than a drug some people use drugs as an escape from reality christians inject themselves with jeezus and live with that high why would you say especially christianity mark
soc.religion.christian	what s in a name the sequel i ve been thinking about the idea that was raised by michael covington i think that words mean what we think they mean regardless of etymology i ve been reflecting on what certain words meant in my childhood and tracing how this shaped some of my attitudes i grew up in a home where christ was a bad word people who were very angry said it the word christian meant someone who was not a jew it carried connotations of otherness of threat of enemy it took some time to figure out that there was a connection between christ and christian when i accepted jesus i expected to be disowned to become a christian meant to join the enemy i knew others would consider me a traitor at some level i agreed but was still prepared to pay this price like esau i sold my birthright however i made a better bargain he only got some stew but i got the incomparable riches of knowing christ as it turned out my parents did not disown me i found out later that they were hoping it was a phase that i would grow out of by the time they had decided it wasn t a phase they were sort of used to it they didn t disown me but they didn t completely accept the situation either for example they didn t come to my wedding because it was in a church when i visited my grandmother in the hospital a few days before her death she said to me as far as i m concerned you still are a jew what she meant was that she loved me and forgave me but i am not a jew i am a christian i ll concede one that likes chicken soup with matzoh balls i do not keep kosher i do not celebrate the sabbath on saturday my sons are not circumcised but these things are true of some people who do consider themselves jews it is not these rules that make people jews it is the heritage from the past i gave up the past this is why i find it hard to relate to messianic jews their experience is unlike mine they still consider themselves jews while following jesus some would even say that i must do so too i am at a stage of my life now where i would like to have a heritage it was not something i valued very much when i gave it but i did have a sense that i was giving it for god it may have been a small sacrifice it may have been an unnecessary sacrifice but i gave it and do not want to ask for it back and while i don t have the heritage i was born with i do have another i am an outcast from the house of israel but i am a member of the church one of the things i like about being a catholic christian is that it is rich in tradition it gives me a feeling of once again being rooted in the past this is probably one of the reasons why i don t like it when people mess around with christian traditions for example changing the name of easter these traditions fill an important emotional need of mine i suppose the point of all this is that people shouldn t assume that all believers of jewish background are the same for some jewish christian is a good name for others it is an oxymoron jayne kulikauskas jayen mmalt guild org
soc.religion.christian	re tuff to be a christian in article apr geneva rutgers edu mdbs ms uky edu no name writes bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes same hey we can t do it god himself inspires us to turn our lives over to him that s tuff and most people don t want to do it to be a real christian would be something for the strong to persevere at but so you think it is easy to be a muslim or be a buddhist good points on buddhism etc deleted just because one says christianity true christianity is hard to follow faithfully does not mean that one discounts the validity and difficulty of other religions i admire those of any religion who are willing to make the kind of sacrifices and dedicate themselves spiritually in the way you are talking about more deleted and perhaps some more but leave the crap in it out woman was created after man to be his helper etc do you think this is what christianity is all about not all christians believe in this particular story literally it sounds above like you are supporting a policy of to each his own here is another example of that if it helps someone s faith to take every word of the bible literally i support and respect that too time we don t rush it in one day christianity is your whole life it is not going to church once a week or helping poor people once in a while we box everything into time units such as work at this time sports tv social life god is above these boxes and should be when ever i turn on my tv there is this pat robertson and other brain washers oh boy what an act they put on with an number to turn in your pledges god it seems is alive and well inside these boxes please don t judge all of christianity by one man the only man one can truly judge all of christianity by is jesus makes sense right i think his point about how we put our lives into little boxes is very true what does your comment about robertson have to do with that carried with us into all these boxes that we have created for ourselves parting question would you have become a christian if you had not been indoctrinated by your parents you probably never learned about any other religion to make a comparative study and therefore i claim you are brain washed i was raised agnostic my father was never baptised and was raised atheist he is not an atheist because he found a close mindedness present in the viewpoint of his parents equal to the close mindedness he found in the viewpoint of the christians he came in contact with thus i was free to choose how to live my life and he supported the decision i made to join the episcopal church although he emphasized to me that his respect for my beliefs should result in my not intruding on his beliefs ie i should not try to convert him as that is his decision please no flames or advice on how to convert him one of my good friends is hindi and i greatly respect her beliefs and the culture surrounding her religion my best friend is jewish and i have always held a profound resepct for the jewish religion chaim potok and isaac bashevis singer are two of my favorite authors i really do not think you can make that kind of generalization about how christians choose and i do mean choose their faith if they have not consciously accepted the faith in their adult lives which is what confirmation represents then you can talk about their being brainwashed vera if you choose not to decide you still have made a choice rush freewill
soc.religion.christian	re an agnostic s question perhaps you can tell your friend that you feel pressured by his continual discussions of this topic surely he doesn t feel you should be pressured into something you feel uncomfortable about since christianity should be a choice one should make on one s own please also realize that he is doing this out of friendship he probably feels you are missing out on something great and wants to tell you about it but since you know where you can learn about christianity you can tell him that it is now up to you to make that choice and if the choice is no you should be respected for that personally i believe that a christian s mission is just to be christ like showing his her own faith and happiness in that faith and make sure people know they are welcome to talk to you about it i do not believe in imposing your beliefs upon others but then again everyone s definitions of imposing may differ i hope i have made myself clear if not please correct me vera i am your clock i bind unto myself today vera noyes i am your religion the strong name of the noye midway uchicago edu i own you trinity no disclaimer what lard st patrick s breastplate is there to disclaim
soc.religion.christian	re sspx schism here is some material by michael davies on the subject of schism in general and archishop lefebvre in particular he wrote it around the first part of the two part article was on the scandalous activities of archbishop weakland in this country but i cut all that and i pared down the rest to what was relevant joe buehler schism and disobedience according to st thomas aquinas schism consists primarily in a refusal of submission to the pope or communion with the members of the church united to him on first sight it would appear that whatever the subjective motivation of the archbishop as discussed above he must be in a state of objective schism as he has refused to submit to the pope on a very grave matter involving his supreme power of jurisdiction however standard catholic textbooks of theology make it clear that while all schisms involve disobedience not all acts of disobedience are schismatic if this were so as was noted at the beginning of this article it would mean that the number of american bishops who are not schismatic would not reach double figures the distinction between disobedience and schism is made very clear in the article on schism in the very authoritative dictionnaire de theologie catholique the article is by father yves congar who is certainly no friend of archbishop lefebvre he explains that schism and disobedience are so similar that they are often confused father congar writes that schism involves a refusal to accept the existence of legitimate authority in the church for example luther s rejection of the papacy father congar explains that the refusal to accept a decision of legitimate authority in a particular instance does not constitute schism but disobedience the catholic encyclopedia explains that for a catholic to be truly schismatic he would have to intend to sever himself from the church as far as in him lies it adds that not every disobedience is schism in order to possess this character it must include besides the transgression of the command of the superiors a denial of their divine right to command not only does mgr lefebvre not deny the divine right of the pope to command but he affirms repeatedly his recognition of the pope s authority and his intention of never breaking away from rome the archbishop made his attitude clear in the july august issue of days we pray for the pope every day nothing has changed with the consecrations last june we are not sedevacantists we recognize in john paul ii the legitimate pope of the catholic church we don t even say that he is a heretical pope we only say that his modernist actions favor heresy intrinsically schismatic the principal argument used by those claiming that mgr lefebvre is in schism is that the consecration of a bishop without a papal mandate is an intrinsically schismatic act a bishop who carries out such a consecration it is claimed becomes ipso facto a schismatic this is not true if such a consecration is an intrinsically schismatic act it would always have involved the penalty of excommunication in the code of canon law the offence was punished only by suspension see canon of the code pope pius xii had raised the penalty to excommunication as a response to the establishment of a schismatic church in china the consecration of these illicit chinese bishops differed radically from the consecrations carried out by mgr lefebvre as the professed intention was to repudiate the authority of the pope that is to deny that he has the right to govern the church and the illicitly consecrated chinese bishops were given a mandate to exercise an apostolic mission neither archbishop lefebvre nor any of the bishops he has consecrated claim that they have powers of jurisdiction they have been consecrated solely for the purpose of ensuring the survival of the society by carrying out ordinations and also to perform confirmations i do not wish to minimize in any way the gravity of the step take by mgr lefebvre the consecration of bishops without a papal mandate is far more serious matter than the ordination of priests as it involves a refusal in practice of the primacy or jurisdiction belonging by divine right to the roman pontiff but the archbishop could argue that the crisis afflicting the church could not be more grave and that grave measures were needed in response it appears to be taken for granted by most of the archbishop s critics that he was excommunicated for the offense of schism and the vatican has certainly been guilty of fostering this impression there is not so much as a modicum of truth in this allegation the new code of canon law includes a section beginning with canon entitled penalties for specific offenses de poenis in singula dicta the first part deals with offenses against religion and the unity of the church de delictis contra religionem et ecclesiae unitatem canon deals with the offense of schism which is evidently together with apostasy and heresy one of the three fundamental offenses against the unity of the church but the archbishop was not excommunicated under the terms of this canon or indeed under any canon involving an offense against religion or the unity of the church the canon cited in his excommunication comes from the third section of penalties for specific offenses which is entitled usurpation of ecclesial functions and offenses in their exercise de munerum ecclesiasticorum usurpatione degue delictis iniis exercendis the canon in question is canon which reads a bishop who consecrates someone bishop and the person who receives such a consecration from a bishop without a pontifical mandate incur an automatic latae sententiae excommunication reserved to the holy see the scandalous attempts to smear archbishop lefebvre with the offense of schism are then contrary to both truth and charity a comparable smear under civil as opposed to ecclesiastical law would certainly justify legal action for libel involving massive damages an accurate parallel would be to state that a man convicted of manslaughter had been convicted of first degree murder i must stress that what i have written here is not the dubious opinion of laymen unversed in the intricacies of canon law canon lawyers without the least shred of sympathy for mgr lefebvre have repudiated the charge of schism made against him as totally untenable father patrick yaldrini dean of the faculty of canon law of the institut catholique in paris noted in the july issue of valeurs actuelles that as i have just explained mgr lefebvre was not excommunicated for schism but for the usurpation of an ecclesiastical function he added that it is not the consecration of a bishop which constitutes schism but the conferral of an apostolic mission upon the illicitly consecrated bishop it is this usurpation of the powers of the sovereign pontiff which proves the intention of establishing a parallel church cardinal rosalio lara president of the pontifical commission for the authentic interpretation of canon law commented on the consecrations in the july issue of la repubblica it would be hard to imagine a more authoritative opinion the cardinal wrote the act of consecrating a bishop without a papal mandate is not in itself a schismatic act in fact the code that deals with offenses is divided into two sections one deals with offenses against religion and the unity of the church and these are apostasy schism and heresy consecrating a bishop with a pontifical mandate is on the contrary an offense against the exercise of a specific ministry for example in the case of the consecrations carried out by the vietnamese archbishop ngo dinh thuc in and although the archbishop was excommunicated he was not considered to have committed a schismatic act because there was no intention of a breach with the church it is not simply unjust but ludicrous to suggest that in consecrating bishops without a papal mandate archbishop lefebvre had the least intent of establishing a schismatic church he is not a schismatic and will never be a schismatic the archbishop considers correctly that the the church is undergoing its worst crisis since the arian heresy and that for the good of the church it was necessary for him to consecrate the four bishops to ensure the future of his society canon law provides for just such a situation and even if one believes that the future of the society could have been guaranteed without these consecrations the fact that the archbishop believed sincerely that it could not means as canon law states clearly that he has not incurred excommunication furthermore while the vatican allows such prelates as archbishop weakland to undermine the faith with impunity it cannot expect catholics to pay the least attention to its sanctions against a great and orthodox archbishop whose entire life has been devoted to the service of the church and the salvation of souls dr eric m de saventhem president of the international una voce association is one of the best informed laymen in the church and he knows the archbishop intimately dr de saventhem like myself has no greater desire than to see a reconciliation between mgr lefebvre and the holy see during the archbishop s lifetime a quotation from a statement by dr de saventhem which was published in the february remnant merits careful study in retrospect the road leading to the consecrations of june appears more paved with grave roman and unfortunately also papal omissions than with lefebvrist obstinancies and from the eyes of an informed public this cannot be hidden by attempting to present the archbishop s act of grave disobedience as an offense against the faith it is said today that mgr lefebvre has an erroneous concept of tradition if this were so cardinal ratzinger could not on behalf of the pope have addressed to the archbishop the following words in his letter of july your ardent desire to safeguard tradition by procuring for it the means to live and prosper testifies to your attachment to the faith of all time the holy father understands your concern and shares it
soc.religion.christian	re atheist s views on christianity was re accepting jeesus in your heart jason smith jasons atlastele com wrote the discussion begins why does the universe exist at all one of the laws of nature specifying cause and effect seems to dictate at least to this layman s mind there must be a causal event no reasonable alternative exists i would argue that causality is actually a property of spacetime causes precede their effects but if you claim that there must be an answer to how did the universe our spacetime emerge from nothing science has some good candidates for an answer i have always wondered why christians use the there are questions science or atheism cannot answer argument i hope this is the appropriate group to ask this question the most popular question is the question of origins why does the universe exist or anything for that matter i think this question should actually be split into two parts namely why is there existence why anything exists and how did the universe emerge from nothing it is clear science has nothing to say about the first question however is it a meaningful question after all i would say it isn t consider the following a die hard skeptic being be it human or whatever attempts to doubt one s very existence since it is so easy to doubt everything else i cannot be sure the world exists it may be my mind fooling me can i ever be sure i exist however it is only possible to exist or not to exist someone insert an appropriate shakespeare quote here a being that does not exist cannot doubt one s existence a being that does exist can doubt one s existence but this would be pointless the being would exist anyway let us return to the original question why a being that does not exist does not need any reasons for its non existence this being is not sure whether anything else exists but his mind but let us assume that the world exists independent of the mind the objectivity postulate the question why anything exists can be countered by demanding answer to a question why there is nothing in nothingness or in non existence actually both questions turn out to be devoid of meaning things that exist do and things that don t exist don t exist tautology at its best i seriously doubt god could have an answer to this question some christians i have talked to have said that actually god is himself the existence however i see several problems with this answer first it inevitably leads to the conclusion that god is actually all existence good and evil devils and angels us and them this is pantheism not christianity another answer is that god is the source of all existence this sounds much better but i am tempted to ask does god himself exist then if god is the source of his own existence it can only mean that he has in terms of human time always existed but this is not the same as the source of all existence this argument sounds like god does not exist but meta exists and from his meta existent perspective he created existence i think this is actually a nonsolution a mere twist of words the best answer i have heard is that human reasoning is incapable of understanding such questions being an atheist myself i do not accept such answers since i do not have any other methods the second question how did the universe emerge from nothing belongs to the domain of science and i for one do not doubt the question can be answered by its methods many cosmologists have suggested that it is entirely possible for universes to emerge from vacuum this possibility has been suggested in a recent hawking biography see also lizhi shuxian creation of the universe world scientific however i think the sci groups are more appropriate for discussions like this as far as i can tell the very laws of nature demand a why that isn t true of something outside of nature i e super natural this is not true science is a collection of models telling us how not why something happens i cannot see any good reason why the why questions would be bound only to natural things assuming that the supernatural domain exists if supernatural beings exist it is as appropriate to ask why they do so as it is to ask why we exist i believe the genetic code will be entirely deciphered in our lifetimes but we will not see man convert entirely inert material into self sustaining reproducing life ever i ve never been much of a prophet though i can t even picture new york in my mind i don t believe any technology would be able to produce that necessary spark of life despite having all of the parts available just my opinion this opinion is also called vitalism namely that living systems are somehow fundamentally different from inanimate systems do christians in general adopt this position what would happen when scientists announce they have created primitive life say small bacteria in a lab there is a problem with your prophecy artificial life has been created although not yet in a chemical form computer simulations of evolution contain systems that are as much alive as any bacterium although their code is electronic as well as their metabolism see a recent book steven levy artificial life the quest for a new creation jonathan cape london artificial chemical life is just around the corner after all no spark of life has been found to be necessary living systems do not violate any physical laws as we know them you don t mind if a few of us send up a prayer on your behalf during your research do you after all if we of christ are deluding ourselves you really have nothing to worry about eh exactly this is why i think atheists should not post any evangelical atheist arguments to soc religion groups since people who seek to find peace in religions must be allowed to gather together i would normally have asked these questions in alt atheism or talk religion misc but it seems many christians do not read these groups petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics is the truth pihatie c finou oulu fi physics is the rule of sf oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu fi chemistry is the game
soc.religion.christian	re a question that has bee bothering me wquinnan sdcc ucsd edu malcusco writes my problem with science is that often it allows us to assume we know what is best for ourselves god endowed us with the ability to produce life through sexual relations for example but he did not make that availible to everyone does that mean that if science can over ride god s decision through alterations that god wills for us to have the power to decide who should and should not be able to have children should men be allowed to have babies if that is made possible in a word yes i don t believe that physical knowledge has a great deal of impact on the power of god in the past god gave us the ability to create life through sexual relations now he is giving us the ability to create life through in vitro fertilization the difference between the two is merely cosmetic and even if we gain the ability to create universes we won t begin to approach the glory of god the power we are being given is a test and i am sure that in many cases we will use our new abilities unwisely but people have been using sexuality unwisely for millenia and i haven t heard an outcry to abolish it yet no matter how far we extend our dominion over the physical world we aren t impinging on god s power it s only when we attempt to gain control of the spiritual world those things that can t be approached through science and logic that we begin to interfere with god alan terlep and the scorpion says it s oakland university rochester mi in my nature atterlep vela acs oakland edu
soc.religion.christian	re the arrogance of christians phs d vaxc cc monash edu au writes in article apr athos rutgers edu aa freenet carleton ca mark baker writes this is not true the athiest s position is that there is no proof of the existence of god as much as some people accept their church their priests or straight from their own scriptures as the proof this does not satisfy atheists you haven t fully explained the atheist position many theists believe that there is no proof of the existence of god but choose to believe in him anyway i haven t yet found an argument for atheism that can t quickly be broken down to unprovable assumptions this isn t a problem with me everybody needs to have a faith but if you believe that you can provide a purely logical argument for the nonexistence of god i d really like to see it are you asking us to believe blindly you are trying to deny that part of us that makes us ask the question does god exist i e self awareness and reason if we do not use our ability to reason we become as ignorant as the other animals on this earth does god want us to be like that you are right that science and reason cannot prove anything however if we do not use them we can only then believe on faith alone and since we can only use faith why is one picture of god e g hinduism any less valid than another e g christianity ahh but when you use science and reason you have faith in certain beliefs of the scientific method for example the physical laws of the universe are stable our observations of reality are a valid basis for a determination of truth objective reality exists logical argument is a valid way to answer all questions can you prove any of these alan terlep and the scorpion says it s oakland university rochester mi in my nature atterlep vela acs oakland edu
soc.religion.christian	re being right about messiahs desiree bradley mindlink bc ca desiree bradley writes and from my meagre knowledge of the bible it seems that christians have been hard on the jews of christ s day for being cautious about accepting somebody that their religious authorities didn t accept as the messiah this is a good point christ was hardly the only person who claimed to be the messiah in fact a number of messiahs were active in the area from the time of the roman conquest to after the fall of masada many of the statements made by the apostles especially their repeated attempts to give jesus a sword give him military power point to the fact that they didn t realize the true nature of his reign until after the fact many of the statements in the bible can be seen as being oriented toward explaining this new definition of messiah to the jews who were being preached to alan terlep and the scorpion says it s oakland university rochester mi in my nature atterlep vela acs oakland edu
soc.religion.christian	atheists and hell hello i have seen two common threads running through postings by atheists on the newsgroup and i think that they can be used to explain each other unfortunately i don t have direct quotes handy atheists believe that when they die they die forever a god who would condemn those who fail to believe in him to eternal death is unfair i don t see what the problem is to christians hell is by definition eternal death exactly what atheists are expecting when they die there s no reason hell has to be especially awful to most people eternal death is bad enough literal interpreters of the bible will have a problem with this view since the bible talks about the fires of hell and such personally i don t think that people in hell will be thrust into flame any more than i expect to jesus with a double edged sword issuing from his mouth i treat both these statements as metaphorical alan terlep and the scorpion says it s oakland university rochester mi in my nature atterlep vela acs oakland edu rushing in where angels fear to tread jody
soc.religion.christian	re tuff to be a christian in article apr geneva rutgers edu mdbs ms uky edu no name writes parting question would you have become a christian if you had not been indoctrinated by your parents you probably never learned about any other religion to make a comparative study and therefore i claim you are brain washed you write as if no one ever became a christian except people from christian families this is not true as quite a few people on this group can attest including me richard aquinas chonak norris mit edu usenet addict intp seeking job change sys mgr vax sis cobol dtr progr unix c x
soc.religion.christian	re sabbath admissions of in response to some of the discussions on the sabbath andrew byler commented that if we really followed sola scriptura we would worship on saturday the change to sunday was a law made by the church and we don t acknowledge its authority to make laws i noted that protestants do not consider sunday worship a law clh he was not referring to the faq but to the five sabbath admissions posted on the bible study group this is what prompted someone to send the faq to me the argument against the sabbath is that it is part of the ceremonial law and like the rest of the n ceremonial law is not binding on christians you cannot show from scripture that the weekly sabbath is part of the ceremonial laws before you post a text in reply investigate its context if you accept that the sabbath is not binding on christians then the day of worship falls into the category of items on which individual christians or since worship is by its nature a group activity churches are free to decide can the churches also decide what is and is not sin interesting where there is no divine imperative of course we must establish rules of operation but we cannot be as creative with what god has explicitly spoken on darius again in the normal protestant interpretation sunday is not a law and worshipping on another day is not a sin churches are free to decide on the day they will meet just as they are free to decide on the hour it would not be a sin to worship on some other day but if you belong to a church that worships on sunday and you show up on monday you will probably worship alone clh
soc.religion.christian	poem the sophomore romans the sophomore says what is truth and turns to bask in the admiration of his peers how modern how daring how liberating how modern how daring how liberating they chant the sophomore being american doesn t know that his question modern skeptical cynical was asked before by a modern skeptical cynical urbane cosmopolitan politician appointed not elected who happened to live two thousand years ago like many politicians he cared less about ideals than results less about ends than means less about anything than keeping his job and his head we might call him a bit brutal though firm would be kinder and no doubt stalin who let nobody go laughed at his laxness he didn t like his job perhaps he no longer hoped for better nor feared worse except regarding his head and when these wily jews with their heads i win tails you lose conundrums brought forth their madman his first impulse was to play the roman i find nothing wrong with him see to it yourselves but when they mentioned king and caesar his heart froze if he killed their madman he d start a riot and lose his job and his head if he saved the king of the jews he d piss off caesar and lose his job and his head and when his wife told him to have nothing to do with the righteous lout she didn t tell him anything he hadn t already figured out so he punted not my jurisdiction take him to see herod who just happened to be in town herod appreciated the courtesy but wasn t worried and sent the sharp tongued fool who suddenly didn t have much to say funny how people lose it under pressure back in the attire proper to his royal state his ass is covered if herod has no problem caesar certainly won t the fool can be king of whatever world he wants as long as it s not caesar s i m letting him go he said with a shout looks like he ll last this one out the crowd s reaction puzzled him they really wanted him dead they didn t want the king of the jews they wanted barabbas instead and as josephus records they got him oh well he thought they all look the same to me and we ll get barabbas next time and if i can get them to say we have no king but caesar by killing a madman hell i ll kill ten a day and then pilate had his fun a little joke short to the point trilingual and all this went as it always does when someone gets caught in the gears of government and there s a scientific explanation no doubt for the superstitious rumors persisting to this day that it didn t all end with a tomb and a roman squadron on guard our sophomore doesn t know about this he doesn t recognize his kindred spirit or truth either as he admits i guess we haven t learned much in two thousand years fred gilham gilham csl sri com peace is only better than war when it s not hell too war being hell makes sense walker percy the second coming
soc.religion.christian	assurance of hell i dreamed that the great judgment morning had dawned and the trumpet had blown i dreamed that the sinners had gathered for judgment before the white throne oh what weeping and wailing as the lost were told of their fate they cried for the rock and the mountains they prayed but their prayers were too late the soul that had put off salvation not tonight i ll get saved by and by no time now to think of religion alas he had found time to die and i saw a great white throne now some have protest by saying that the fear of hell is not good for motivation yet jesus thought it was paul thought it was paul said knowing therefore the terror of the lord we persuade men today too much of our evangelism is nothing but soft soap and some of it is nothing but evangelical salesmanship we don t tell people anymore that there s such a thing as sin or that there s such a place as hell as jayne has said this doesn t mean we have to come on so strong so as to hit people over the head with a baseball bat yet the fact remains there is a place called hell a place so fearful that god died to save us from having to experience it whatever you or i as christians do we should do whatever we can to win people to the lord if for no other reason to keep them from going to outer darkness jesus in mt tells us that he didn t prepare hell for people he prepared it for the devil and his angels no where in the bible do i read anywhere that god predestined anybody to go to hell d l moody use to say that the elect are the whosoever will and the nonelect are the whosoever wont s whether or not that s theologically sound i couldn t defend but its practical jesus said to the people of israel ye would not now some of you may not be students of the bible heck some of you may not be christians have you ever said to somebody i don t believe in hell i believe in the religion of jesus but did you know that jesus talked more about hell than he did about heaven oh i believe in the religion of the sermon on the mount you find hell taught by jesus in the sermon on the mount you ll read that jesus talked about the tree being cast into the fire several times he talks about hell and about judgment in fact over and over in the synoptics matthew mark and luke jesus talks about hell not isaiah not moses not john the baptist though he did but jesus the son of god the great beloved one preached about hell because he loved people and didn t want to see them go there now if there is no hell then jesus preached in vain it was our lord jesus not some angry baptist preacher that said where the worm never dies and where the fire never goes out jesus said that it was jesus who called hell a furnace of fire it was jesus that used the word condemnation and this is the condemnation that men love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil jesus said that how can we get it across to you that a loving dying jesus preached about hell not only that but he went through hell that s what calgary was all about when my lord was on the cross darkness fell he called hell outer darkness do you have this idea that hell is a place where the gamblers are gambling over here the drunks are getting drunk over there and the prostitutes are prostituting their bodies over there that s not what hell is hell s not a party there s no fellowship there he called it outer darkness outer away from god darkness god is light no when he was on the cross he was made sin for you and for me god treated jesus the way sinners have to be treated that s is a sobering thought as my son would say an awesome thought my god my god why hast thou forsaken me hell is isolation there s no fellowship in hell there s no friendship in hell there s no loving embrace in hell there s no hand shake in hell there s no word of encouragement in hell i thirst it goes much deeper than physical thirst hell is eternal craving with no satisfaction the man whose life was lived for drugs will crave it eternally the man whose life was lived for the lust of a woman s body will crave it eternally and not be satisfied one theologian has put it this way and i think it deserves merit what is hell hell is just the kind of environment that matches the internal condition of the lost in a recent post i was trying to remember the founder of the word of life ministries i ve remembered his name jack wertzen and found that the illustration that i gave wasn t his his illustration was that he was talking to his barber and his barber s wife and daughter had just recently been saved and he was commenting about it to jack they sing these songs and read bible verses and their praising this and that i can t stand it jack do you think god would send me to hell jack answered by saying yes i think he would of course the barber said what do you mean by that well if you can t stand living at home with your wife and daughter who sing hymns and praises to god now what would you do in heaven where they ll do it for eternity you d be miserable because god loves you he d put you where it would match what you really are it makes a man think the crucifixion of jesus christ is a fact that necessitates the eternal existence of hell because on the cross he performed an eternal act don t ask me how i don t know but he is god and he is the infinite eternal and when he died he died an infinite eternal death it is by that eternal act that he purchased eternal life for the whosoever wills he suffered eternal judgment a lot of people would like to detour around hell by saying everybody is going to be saved eventually universalism my bible says no he ll separate them the sheep from the goats after you die there s a probationary period in which god prepares you for heaven no my bible says that it is appointed unto men once to die and then comes judgment some of the cultist believe in annihilation after you die sssswish just like a mosquito you re squished out no in rev we are told that their is eternal existence in hell just as there is in heaven i don t enjoy making these kind of statements and maybe you don t enjoy listening to them but we have to preach the entire word of god there is a place called hell if i could give one verse of scripture that could give any hope that people aren t going there i d give it to you but i haven t found it that fact that there is a place called hell the fact that our god is a god of holiness and must judge sin the fact that he has made us the kind of creatures we are and therefore we re responsible the fact that he has placed us in a uni verse that has purpose and design behind it the fact that sin is such an awful thing and the fact that god himself went through hell to save us from hell leads us to two applications as i ve already mentioned if you are a christian you must worn others its not good enough to stop and fix their flat tire and not tell them that just around the bend the bridge is out knowing therefore the terror of lord we persuade men if you haven t accepted jesus are your savior you re taking an awful chance as i say to the jehovah witnesses who no longer frequent my door if you are right and i am wrong then i will have lived a good life and will die and cease to exist but if i am right and you are wrong then you will die and suffer eternal damnation i don t mean to make fun at this point but its like dirty harry said you ve got to ask yourself do i feel lucky well do you a man s got to know his limitations don t be one of the whosoever wont s because while i was yet a sinner he died for me there s no greater love than this that a man lay down his life for another rex
soc.religion.christian	re sabbath admissions of i find it interesting that cls never answered any of the questions posed then he goes on the make statements which make me shudder he has established a two tiered god one set of rules for the jews his people and another set for the saved gentiles his people why would god discriminate does the jew who accepts jesus now have to live under the gentile rules god has one set of rules for all his people paul was never against the law in fact he says repeatedly that faith establishes rather that annuls the law paul s point is germane to both jews and greeks the law can never be used as an instrument of salvation and please do not combine the ceremonial and moral laws in one in matt christ plainly says what he came to do and you say he was only saying that for the jews s benefit your christ must be a politician speaking from both sides of his mouth as paul said i have not so learned christ forget all the theology just do what jesus says your excuses will not hold up in a court of law on earth far less in god s judgement hall darius
soc.religion.christian	re sabbath admissions of again in the normal protestant interpretation sunday is not a law and worshipping on another day is not a sin churches are free to decide on the day they will meet just as they are free to decide on the hour it would not be a sin to worship on some other day but if you belong to a church that worships on sunday and you show up on monday you will probably worship alone clh i totally agree with that sentiment but why do you have to go further and advocate violating what god has set up that is the question which you have not answered from scripture you can worship on every day as long as you work but god says the sabbath is all mine darius
soc.religion.christian	re hell in article apr athos rutgers edu mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington writes in a short poem god in his mercy made the fixed pains of hell c s lewis expresses an idea that i m sure was current among others but i haven t be able to find its source that even hell is an expression of mercy because god limits the amount of separation from him and hence the amount of agony that one can achieve i have also heard it called an expression of mercy because heaven would be far more agonizing for those who had rejected god joe kellett jkellett netcom com
soc.religion.christian	re atheists and hell atterlep vela acs oakland edu writes hello i have seen two common threads running through postings by atheists on the newsgroup and i think that they can be used to explain each other unfortunately i don t have direct quotes handy atheists believe that when they die they die forever true to a point if you were to ask a buddhist atheist a god who would condemn those who fail to believe in him to eternal death is unfair i don t see what the problem is to christians hell is by definition eternal death exactly what atheists are expecting when they die there s no reason hell has to be especially awful to most people eternal death is bad enough actually yes and no hell is eternal death actually the way i ve had it related to me it s more of an eternal damnation where sinners will feel the licking flames of hell if i supposedly can feel these flames i would assume i m still alive but suffering and away from god literal interpreters of the bible will have a problem with this view since the bible talks about the fires of hell and such personally i don t think that people in hell will be thrust into flame any more than i expect to jesus with a double edged sword issuing from his mouth i treat both these state ments as metaphorical i believe jehovah s witnesses have a similar view where the body sleeps for ever i don t have a problem with being condemned to hell either the way i see it if god wants to punish me for being honest in my skepticism that is for saying he doesn t exist he certainly wouldn t be changing his nature besides i would rather spend an eternity in hell than be beside god in heaven knowing even one man would spend his eternal life being scorched for his wrongdoings stephen atheist libertarian pro individuality pro responsibility jr and all that jazz
soc.religion.christian	catholic church poland hello i m writing a paper on the role of the catholic church in poland after can anyone tell me more about this or fill me in on recent books articles in english german or french most important for me is the role of the church concerning the abortion law religious education at schools birth control and the relation church state government thanx masja m m zwart s let rug nl
soc.religion.christian	re proof of resurection in article apr geneva rutgers edu smayo world std com scott a mayo writes i think christianity goes down in flames if the resurrection is ever disproved didn t paul write that if the resurrection is not true we are the biggest fools of all however whether you believe in christ or not his teachings e g love your brotherman as yourself even if only followed at a secular level could do a great deal to alleviate some of the problems we see today in the world even when i was a rabid atheist i couldn t deny that jeff johnson jcj tellabs com
soc.religion.christian	daily verse let us not become weary in doing good for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up galatians
soc.religion.christian	re sex education joe kellett jkellett netcom com wrote bits deleted i am told that planned parenthood siecus style values free methods that teach contraceptive technology and advise kids how to make choices actually increase pregnancy rates i posted a long article on this a while back and will be happy to email a copy to any who are interested the same research produced the results that abstinence related curricula were found to decrease pregnancy rates in teens i assume that it is reasonable to assume that the aids rate will fluctuate with the pregnancy rate i d be fascinated to see such evidence please send me your article on the negative side however i suspect that any such simplistic link abstinence education decreased pregnancy contraceptive education increased pregnancy is false the us which i d guess has one of the largest proportion of non liberal sex education in the western world also has one of the highest teenage pregnancy rates please correct me if my guess is wrong bruce stephens bruce liverpool ac uk
soc.religion.christian	re certainty and arrogance in article apr geneva rutgers edu kilroy gboro rowan edu dr nancy s sweetie writes someone called rexlex has claimed that there is a way out of the loop but he did not bother to explain what it was preferring instead to paraphrase sartre ramble about wittgenstein and say that the conclusion of my argument leads to relativism i will answer this as i find time rexlex suggested that people read he is there and he is not silent by francis schaeffer i didn t think very highly of it but i think that mr schaeffer is grossly overrated by many evangelical christians somebody else might like it though so don t let my opinion stop you from reading it if someone is interested in my opinion i d suggest on certainty by ludwig wittgenstein darren f provine kilroy gboro rowan edu if any substantial number of talk religion misc readers read some wittgenstein of the postings would disappear if they understood some wittgenstein would disappear michael l siemon notice what i said about this book i called it easy reading the reason i dropped philosphy as my major was because i ran into too many pharisaical simon s i don t know how many walking encyclopedia s i ran across in philosphy classes the problem isn t in knowing sooooo much more than your average lay person the problem comes when you become puffed up about it schaeffer is just fine for the average lay person that was who he was writting to i suppose that you would have criticised john that his gospel was to simple i ve talked with schaeffer one on one i ve been in lectures with the man when he was being drilled by philosphy students and prof s from secular as well as christian universities nd alone would fill both those catagories his answers were enough that the prof s themselves often were taken back and caused to re think what their question was i saw this time and time again at different open forums so yes schaeffers books are by in large well simplistic it certainly isn t grad level reading but we must get off our high horses when it comes to recommended reading do you seriously think most people would get through the first chapter of wittgenstein i may have more to say about this secular scientist at another time also one must finally get beyond the doubt caused by insistent inquisitiveness one cannot live his life constantly from a cartisian doubt base look the christian wholeheartedly supports genuine rationality but we must add a qualification to give this balance christianity is second to none in keeping reason in its place we never know the value of a thing until we know its limits put unlimited value on something and in the end you will exhaust it of all value this is why xianity is thoroughly rational but not the least bit rationalistic it also explains the curious fact that it is rationalism and not christian faith which leads to irrationality if we forget the limits of a thing we fly in the face of reality and condem ourselves to learn the simple ironic lesson of life more without limits is less less with limits is more or as i have so often stated it freedom without form soon becomes form w o freedom let s put it another way the rationality of faith is implacably opposed to absurdity but has no quarrel with mystery think about that it can tell the difference between the two if you will let it christianity s contention with rationalism is not that it has too much reason in it but that it has very little else when a christian comes to faith his understanding and his trust go hand in hand but as he continues in faith his trust may sometimes be called to go on by itself without his understanding this is where the principle of suspended judgment applies at such time if the christian faith is to be itself and let god be god it must suspend judgment and say father i do not understand you but i trust you now don t read all your objections of me into that statement i wasn t saying i do not understand you at all but i trust you anyway it means that i do not understand you in this situation but i do understand why i trust you anyway therefore i can trust that you understand even though i do not the former is a mystery unrelieved by rationality and indistinguishable from absurdity the latter is a statement of rationality of faith walking hand in hand with the mystery of faith so the principle of suspended judgment is not irrational it is not a leap of faith but a walk of faith as believers we cannot always know why but we canalways know why we trust god who knows why and this makes all the difference now there is one obvious snag to all this and this is where i have parted company with philosophy what is eminently reasonable in theory is a rather bit more difficult in practice in practice the pressure of mystery acts on faith like the insistent whying of a year old it isn t just that we would like to know what we do not know but that we feel we must know what we cannot know the one produces frustration because curiosity is denied the other leads to genuine anguish more specifically the poorer our understanding is in coming to faith the more necessary it will be to understand everything after coming to faith if we do not know why we trust god then we will always need to know exactly what god is doing in order to trust him failing to grasp that we may not be able to trust him for anything we do not understand may count decisevely against what we are able to trust if on the other hand we do know why we trust god we will be able to trust him in situations where we do not understand what he is doing too many xian leaders teach as if the christian had a window in the back of his head which allows for understanding at every foot fall for what god is doing may be ambiguous but it will not be inherently contradictory it may be mystery to us but mystery is only inscrutable what would be insufferable is absurdity and that my friend was the conclusion of nietzche both in theory and in practice rex
soc.religion.christian	re phone number of wycliffe translators uk i m concerned about a recent posting about wbt sil i thought they d pretty much been denounced as a right wing organization involved in ideological manipulation and cultural interference including vietnam and south america a commission from mexican academia denounced them in as a covert political and ideological institution used by the u s govt as an instrument of control regulation penetration espionage and repression my concern is that this group may be seen as acceptable and even praiseworthy by readers of soc religion christian it s important that christians don t immediately accept every christian organization as automatically above reproach mp good heavens you mean my good friend wes collins who took his wife and two small children into the jungles of guatemala despite dangers from primitive conditions and armed guerillas so that the indigenous people groups their could have the bible in their native languages the young man who led bible studies in our church who daily demonstrated and declared his deep abiding faith in the lord of love you mean he really was a sneaky imperialistic spy whose real reason for going was to exploit and oppress the ignorant and unsuspecting masses imagine my surprise i never would have thought it of him how was this terrible deceit discovered what exactly was the cultural interference they were caught committing attempting to persuade the locals that their ancestral gods were false gods and their sacrifices including human sacrifices in some cases were vain destroying traditional lifestyles by introducing steel tools medical vaccines and durable clothes oh and by the way who did the denouncing i am terribly shocked to hear that my friend wes who seemed so nice was really such a deceitful tool of the devil please provide me with specific documentation on this charge there is some risk that i may not believe it otherwise mark
soc.religion.christian	hell black sabbath in looking through my files this weekend i ran across some lyrics from various rock groups that have content here are two from black sabbath s master of reality i ll say this much for the music of the s and early s at least they asked questions of significance jethro tull is another to asked and wrote about things that caused one to wonder rex after forever have you ever thought about your soul can it be saved or perhaps you think that when you re dead you just stay in you grave is god just a thought within you read in a book when you were at school when you think about death do you lose your breath or do you keep your cool would you like to see the pope on the end of a rope do you think he s a fool well i have seen the truth yes i have seen the light and i ve changed my ways and i ll be prepared when you re lonely and scared at the end of your days could it be you re afraid of what your friends might say if they knew you believed in god above they should realize before they criticise that god is the only way to love is your mind so small that you have to fall in with the pack wherever they run will you still sneer when death is near and say they may as well worship the sun i think it was true it was people like you that crucified christ i think it is sad the opinion you had was the only one voiced will you be so sure when your day is near to say you don t believe you had the chance but you turned it down now you can t retrieve perhaps you ll think before you say that god is dead gone open your eyes just realize that he is the one the only one who can save you now from all this sin and hate or will you still jeer at all you hear yes i think it s too late lord of this world you re searching for your mind don t know where to start can t find the key to fit the lock on your heart you think you know but you are never quite sure your soul is ill but you will not find a cure your world was made for you by someone above but you choose evil ways instead of love you made me master of the world where you exist the soul i took from you was not even missed lord of the world evil possessor lord of this world he s now your confessor you think you re innocent you ve nothing to fear you don t know me you say but isn t it clear you turned to me in all your worldly greed and pride but will you turn to me when it your turn to die
soc.religion.christian	re divine providence vs murphy s law in article apr athos rutgers edu rolfe junior dsu edu tim rolfe writes romans rsv we know that in everything god works for good with those who love him who are called according to his purpose murphy s law if anything can go wrong it will we are all quite familiar with the amplifications and commentary on murphy s law but how do we harmonize that with romans for that matter how appropriate is humor contradicted by scripture both christians and non christians laugh at this quote because it exaggerates something we all feel but know is not true us christians just know that a little better in god we trust christopher email csw williams edu
soc.religion.christian	re atheists and hell in article apr athos rutgers edu atterlep vela acs oakland edu cardinal ximenez writes i don t see what the problem is to christians hell is by definition eternal death exactly what atheists are expecting when they die there s no reason hell has to be especially awful to most people eternal death is bad enough literal interpreters of the bible will have a problem with this view since the bible talks about the fires of hell and such personally i don t think that people in hell will be thrust into flame any more than i expect to jesus with a double edged sword issuing from his mouth i treat both these statements as metaphorical phew that takes a load off i don t want to live forever i wish most christians held this view you can t walk across campus in spring without being assailed by fire and brimstone preachers i really think the metaphor should be limited at least with respect to teaching our children it s criminal to put these ideas into a young and trusting mind besides why not rely on the positive aspects of your religion to win their faith tim timothy j brent a man will come to know true happiness brent bank ecn purdue edu only when he accepts that he is but a small part of an infinite universe purdue university spinoza materials science engineering paraphrased
soc.religion.christian	re intolerance eternal life etc i apologize if this article is slightly confusing and late the origonal draft didn t make it through the moderators quote screens so i did violence to it but if you remember the article i am responding to it should still make sence in article geneva rutgers edu jsledd ssdc sas upenn edu james sledd writes hi xian netters god bless you what no hello for heathan netters i feel all left out now deletia table of content intro homosexuality incredibly chopped up post deletia incorrect attributions uh you have your attributions wrong you were responding to my article so dan johnson should be the st one in article athos rutgers edu jayne mmalt guild org jayne kulikauskas writes deletia no free gifts speil nuked by moderator fiat i find that i am dissatisfied with the little purposes that we can manufacture for ourselves little in the cosmic sense ah in the cosmic sence but who lives in the cosmic sence not me cosmicly we don t even exist for all practical purposes i can hardly use the cosmic sence of stuff as a guide to life it would just say don t bother luckily for mortals there are many sences of scale you can talk about in a human sence you can have big purposes even the greatest of the great pharos are long gone the pyramids historical oddities being worn down by the wind eventually to be turned into dust but the influence of aristotle confucious alexander ceasar and countless others is still with us although their works have perished but they have changed to course of history and while humanity exists their deeds cannot be said to have come to nothing even if they are utterly forgotten mankind itself will one day perish one day surely well unless you believe in the second coming which i do not but in that time we can make a difference without some interconnectedness that transcends the physical without god it is all pointless in the end in the end but it must be the end until then there is all the point you can muster and when that end comes there will be nobody to ask gee i don t think james sledd s deeds are gonna make much of a difference ulitmately ya know but they will have already have made a difference great or small before the end why must your ends be eternal to be worthwhile most people are able to live with that and for them little purposes success money power effecting change helping others suffice little is in the eye of the beholder of course i suppose they never think about the cosmic scale or are at least able to put it out of their minds i don t doubt it but i have thought about the cosmic scale and it does not seem to mean much to us here today to me it is comforting to know that reality is an illusion i would not find this comforting but perhaps it is merely my definitions here s what i think the relevant terms are reality that which is real illusion that which is not real but seems to be real objectively existing for reality to be an illusion would mean then that which is real is not real but seems to be or that which objectively exists does not objectively exist but does seem to objectively exist from which we can conclude that unless you want to get a contradiction that no things objectively exist but i have a problem with this because i would like to say that i objectively exist if nothing else cogito ergo sum and all that perhaps you do not mean all that but rather mean objective reality is unreachable by humans which is not so bad and so far as i know is true that the true reality underneath the the physical is spirit have on if reality is an illusion isn t true reality an illusion too and if true reality is spirit doens t that make spirit an illusion as well if i am not distinctly confused this is getting positively buddhist that this world is a school of sorts where we learn and grow and our souls mature that is one hell of a statement although perhaps true do you mean to imply that it was intended to be so if so please show that this is true if not please explain how this can give a purpose to anything that gives a purpose to my little purposes how does it do that wouldn t the world school w intent idea make the world a preparation for some greater purpose rather than a purpose in itself and takes some of the pressure off what pressure it s not so necessary to make this life a success in human terms if you re really just here to learn it is not necessary to be a success in human terms unless your goals either include doing so or require doing so before they themselves can be achived indeed many people have set goals for themselves that do not include success in human terms as i understand it check out yer buddhist monk type guy out for nirvana which is not at all the same thing it s more important to progress grow persist to learn to love yourself and others and to express your love especially when it s dificult to do so honest effort is rewarded by god he knows our limitations why is learning to love a goal what happens if you fail in this goal to you to god to the mysterious purpose deletia question about immortailty and my answer deleted because it was mostly quote two serious questions invitations to discussion what is the nature of eternal life how can we as mortals locked into space time conceive of it possible answer for the best we can do is metaphor analogy question a what is the best metaphor i ll have a crack at that the nature of eternal life is neatly described by its name it is the concept of life without death life without end no we can put together word to describe it but we cannot imagine it a no metaphor is adequate next to eternity if it were we could not understand it either or so i suspect dan johnson and god said jeeze this is dull and it was dull genesis these opinions probably show what i know
soc.religion.christian	re sabbath admissions of in article apr athos rutgers edu pharvey quack kfu com paul harvey writes priority than the direct word of jesus in matt paul begins romans with if someone is weak in the faith do you count yourself as one who is weak in the faith do you count yourself as one who is weak in the faith you read jesus word in matt is there any doubt in your mind about what is right and what is sin greek hamartia missing the mark is there any doubt in your mind about what is right and what is missing the mark however i d like to be clear that i do not think there s unambiguous proof that regular christian worship was on the first day as i indicated there are responses on both of the passages cited whereas the ten commandments and jesus words in matt are fairly clear are they not are they clear or do you have doubts no i don t believe that paul can overrule god an important first step the realization that paul was human however paul was writing for a largely gentile audience yes and he was writing and speaking for an audience that was at best very weak in the faith most could not read most were unfamiliar with the hebrew scriptures in even the septuagint form paul adapted the message of the bible to a largely uneducated market granted this market still exists today but do you count yourself as part of it to be weak in the faith is not missing the mark hamartia if you do the best that your education allows are you doing the best the law was regarded by jews at the time and now as binding on jews but not on gentiles there are rules that were binding on all human beings the so called noachic laws but they are quite minimal let me make clear that the law is none other than the pentateuch of genesis exodus leviticus numbers deuteronomy what did jesus say about the law in matt where did jesus say that the law only applies to jews and that gentiles are above the law the issue that the church had to face after jesus death was what to do about gentiles who wanted to follow christ the decision not to impose the law on them didn t say that the law was abolished it simply acknowledged that fact that it didn t apply to gentiles who acknowledged this fact on what basis are we extra biblical at this point why not also acknowledge that the bhagavad gita is the only relevant text for gentiles after all we see in the bible that it was magus from the east who observed the star signs of jesus why bother with any texts at all why not just follow whatever the church has to say thus there is no contradiction with mat i don t see how you can say this with a straight face are you a follower of christ or do you follow someone else are you saying that the words of jesus only apply to jews as far as i can tell both paul and other jewish christians did continue to participate in jewish worship on the sabbath thus they continued to obey the law how jewish was paul after he changed his name from saul the issue was and is with gentile christians who are not covered by the law or at least not by the ceremonial aspects of it who says gentile christians are not covered by the first five books who says that gentile christians are above the ten commandments jesus dealt mostly with jews i think we can reasonably assume that mat was directed to a jewish audience you re implying that jesus words are valid only for jews is this really what you mean to say you do realize that you are gutting rather large portions of the bible when you read jesus words did you ever consider that maybe just maybe jesus is talking to you no matter what your race or sex if the hebrew scriptures and the gospel accounts of jesus are only directed to jews why were they translated into english he did interact with gentiles a few times e g the centurion whose slave was healed and a couple of others the terms used to describe the centurion see luke suggest that he was a god fearer i e a gentile who followed god but had not adopted the whole jewish law as paul would call him one who was weak in the faith he was commended by jewish elders as a worthy person and jesus accepted him as such this seems to me to indicate that jesus accepted the prevailing view that gentiles need not accept the law which is more important the recorded word of jesus or indications that you can deduce from the bible was jesus god only of the jews or god of all humankind of all race and sex however there s more involved if you want to compare jesus and paul on the law in order to get a full picture of the role of the law we have to come to grips with paul s apparent rejection of the law and how that relates to jesus commendation of the law at least as i read paul he says that the law serves a purpose that has been in a certain sense superceded this is your understanding of paul compare this to the word of jesus are you christian or pauline again this issue isn t one of the abolition of the law in the middle of his discussion paul notes that he might be understood this way and assures us that that s not what he intends to say rather he sees the law as primarily being present to convict people of their sinfulness but ultimately it s an impossible standard and one that has been superceded by christ again this is your understanding of paul did jesus say that the law was an impossible standard did jesus say that he superceded the law are you christian or pauline paul s comments are not the world s clearest here and not everyone agrees with my reading you acknowledge that it is your reading of paul what did jesus say can you deny that matt is quite clear in its meaning are you christian or pauline but the interesting thing to notice is that even this radical position does not entail an abolition of the law it still remains as an uncompromising standard from which not an iota or dot may be removed for its purpose of convicting of sin it s important that it not be relaxed when did jesus say that the purpose of the law was conviction of sin however for christians it s not the end ultimately we live in faith not law please reread matt are you christian or pauline jesus interpretations emphasize the intent of the law and stay away from the ceremonial details are you saying that the ten commandments are ceremonial details paul s conclusion is similar while he talks about the law being superceded all of the specific examples he gives involve the ceremonial law such as circumcision and the sabbath he is quite concerned about maintaining moral standards you call observance of the sabbath the day on which the lord rested ceremonial has circumcision been superceded for christians are you christian or pauline both there is no doubt in my mind about what is sin and what is not at least not in this case jesus did not deal explicitly with the question of whether the law was binding on gentiles that s why i have to cite evidence such as the way jesus dealt with the centurion as to general jewish views on this i am dependent largely on studies of pauline theology one by h j schoeps and one whose author i can t come up with at the moment both authors are jews also various christian and non christian jews have discussed the issue here and in other newsgroups mat is clear that the law is still valid it does not say that it applies to gentiles and yes i say that the specific requirement for worship on the sabbath in the ten commandments is a ceremonial detail when you re looking at the obligations of gentiles similarly circumcision i m not sure quite what else i can say on this subject again it s unfortunate the jesus didn t answer the question directly however we do know what the st cent jewish approach was how jesus dealt with at least one gentile and how jesus disciples dealt with the issue when it became more acute i m referring to acts more than paul given that these are all in agreement i don t see that there s a big problem clh
soc.religion.christian	re atheists and hell in apr athos rutgers edu atterlep vela acs oakland edu cardinal ximenez writes hello i have seen two common threads running through postings by atheists on the newsgroup and i think that they can be used to explain each other unfortunately i don t have direct quotes handy atheists believe that when they die they die forever more correctly when people die they cease to exist a god who would condemn those who fail to believe in him to eternal death is unfair i don t see what the problem is to christians hell is by definition eternal death exactly what atheists are expecting when they die the idea i ve gotten is that to christians hell is like heaven afterlife i e you don t cease to exist but are subjected to eternal torture well that s the orthodox idea anyway eternal death if you prefer that atheists don t believe in any sort of afterlife literal interpreters of the bible will have a problem with this view since the bible talks about the fires of hell and such personally i don t think that people in hell will be thrust into flame any more than i expect to jesus with a double edged sword issuing from his mouth i treat both these state ments as metaphorical i think it s safe to say that hell was never intended metaphorical certainly not the equivalent of ceasing to exist some christian concepts are indeed metaphors but your idea of hell is a th century interpretation it is of course nice to see that even christianity might evolve to fit the worldview of modern age but i fear the church will not accept it understandably per haps because if you accept that hell is a metaphor then you re one step closer to turning god into a metaphor as well antti lahelma mtf saha hut fi gnothi seauton lehtotie o stel purkki apu fi helsinki jumalat ovat pakanoille suosiollisia tunne itsesi
soc.religion.christian	soc religion christian re the arrogance of christians in a previous message aa freenet carleton ca mark baker writes if i don t think my belief is right and everyone else s belief is wrong then i don t have a belief this is simply what belief means more stuff deleted this seems to be a pretty arogant definition of belief my beliefs are those things which i find to be true based on my experience of the world this experience includes study of things that i may not have experienced directly but even then i can only understand the studies to the extent to which i can relate what i study back to what i have experienced which means that by beliefs about god are directly related to my experience of god having experienced god i try to make sense of that experience i study religion and read the bible i find things that echo what i have already experienced out of this i build my beliefs i also find things that don t match my experience that doesn t make them false they just don t match my experience maybe i will understand that stuff later i don t know maybe all of my beliefs are wrong i can change my beliefs if someone else has beliefs that are different from mine so what neither of us are necessarily wrong someone else is making sense out of a different set of experiences even though we have different explanations and beliefs if we talk we might even discover that the underlying experiences are similar some people approach religion as a truth that can only exist in one form and usually has a single revelation the more dogmatic and inflexible the belief system the more arrogant it will appear to an outsider there is another approach possible however god is a mystery i am trying to solve the mystery so i look at the evidence available to me i try to arrive at the best understanding that i can based on the evidence new evidence may cause me to change my understanding when i encounter someone with a different belief than my own it isn t a threat it is an opportunity to perhaps discover something new about this mystery i can never fully comprehend peace will taber william taber will taber dg com any opinions expressed data general corp will futon webo dg com are mine alone and may westboro mass change without notice when all your dreams are laid to rest you can get what s second best but it s hard to get enough david wilcox
soc.religion.christian	re atheists and hell atterlep vela acs oakland edu cardinal ximenez writes atheists believe that when they die they die forever a god who would condemn those who fail to believe in him to eternal death is unfair i don t see what the problem is to christians hell is by definition eternal death exactly what atheists are expecting when they die well i think that most christians believe that your conciousness will somehow continue on after your physical death which contradicts what most atheists myself included believe namely that your conciousness being contained in your brain dies when your brain dies there s no reason hell has to be especially awful to most people eternal death is bad enough i fear the pain that often comes with the process of dying but since i won t be around to worry about it i don t fear eternal death literal interpreters of the bible will have a problem with this view since the bible talks about the fires of hell and such this is something i ve always found confusing if all your nerve endings die with your physical body why would flame hurt you how can one wail and gnash teeth with no lungs and no teeth mark schnitzius schnitzi eola cs ucf edu university of central florida
soc.religion.christian	latest on branch davidians most of you will have probably seen the news by the time you read this but the branch davidian compound is no more this morning about the feds punched holes in the compound walls by using a tank they then started using non lethal tear gas shortly after noon cult members were seen setting fire to the compound so far about people have been seen outside the compound the fate of the other or people is unknown neither is the fate of the children that were inside the compound did burn to the ground koresh who at times has claimed to be the messiah but then backed off and only claimed to be a prophet had promised several times to come out peacefully if his demands were met first he demanded that his message be broadcast on the radio which it was but he didn t come out he claimed to be waiting for a message from god finally he said that god told him that he needed to decipher the mystery of the seals in revelation and when he was finished he d come out he finished the first one but didn t do any more work that anyone knows of since then the federal agents did warn him that if they didn t come out they would be subjected to tear gas i think it s really sad that so many people put their faith in a mere man even if he did claim to be the son of god and or a prophet i think it underscores the importance of putting you faith only in things that are eternal and knowing for yourself what the scriptures say and what they mean instead of relying on others to do it for you even if those others are learned and mean well paul conditt
soc.religion.christian	re atheists and hell in article athos rutgers edu atterlep vela acs oakland edu cardinal ximenez writes i have seen two common threads running through postings by atheists on the newsgroup and i think that they can be used to explain each other unfortunately i don t have direct quotes handy atheists believe that when they die they die forever a god who would condemn those who fail to believe in him to eternal death is unfair i don t see what the problem is to christians hell is by definition eternal death exactly what atheists are expecting when they die this is the problem this is not hell this is permanent death it is indeed what atheists generally expect and it is neither fair nor unfair it just is you might as well argue about whether being made mostly of carbon and water is fair however the atheists who claim that hell is unfair are talking about the fire and brimstone place of endless suffering which necessarily includes eternal existance life i dunno but some sort of continuation not at all the same thing granted you clearly feel that hell death but this is not a univeral sentiment as near as i can tell if your idea of god condemns heathens to ordinary death i have no problem with that i do have a problem with the gods that hide from humans and torture the unbelievers eternally for not guessing right deletia hell and literalness dan johnson and god said jeeze this is dull and it was dull genesis these opinions probably show what i know
soc.religion.christian	re accepting jeesus in your heart in article athos rutgers edu seanna bnr ca seanna s m watson writes in article apr athos rutgers edu johnsd rpi edu writes in article athos rutgers edu jayne mmalt guild org jayne kulikauskas writes this is why the most effective substance abuse recovery programs involve meeting peoples spiritual needs you might want to provide some evidence next time you make a claim like this in step programs like alcoholics anonymous one of the steps involves acknowleding a higher power aa and other step abuse recovery programs are acknowledged as being among the most effective deletia and so on i seem to have been rather unclear what i was asking is this please show me that the most effective substance absure recovery programs involve meetinsg peoples spiritual needs rather than merely attempting to fill peoples spiritual needs as percieved by the people a a s r c regulars or snoopy this will probably involve defining spritual needs is it not that clear and showing that such things exist and how they can be filled annother tack you might take is to say that fulfilling spiritual needs means acknowledging a higher power of some sort then show that systems that do require this work better than otherwise identical systems that do not a correlation here would help you but as you point out this might just be demonstrating swapping one crutch for annother however i do feel that religion is usually a better crutch than alchohol as it is not usually poisonous i hope with that clarification my question will be answerable i actually did know about the step program its the question of what it does rather than what it tries to do that makes a difference to me dan johnson and god said jeeze this is dull and it was dull genesis these opinions probably show what i know
soc.religion.christian	refusing divine peace and alive prayer was re question about mary it s like refusing god s kingdom come in one of jesus revelation in this century same thing as in the old days people refuse to believe my messengers even when i was alive here on earth they refuse me what more when i am just talking through somebody else paraphrased with all the knowledge believers accumulated he would think that we would be enlightened enough to detect which ones are authentic and divine as opposed to evil or man made these signs these miracles are you afraid that they are not from god that these are the signs we should not open our hearts and mind to for thinking they are evil well is faith in god evil is true peace evil is true love that is divine and pure evil why can t someone accept that god can do what he wants in fulfillment of his generous love and jesus never ending forgiveness to those who turn back to him for salvation why are we refusing god s messenger of this truth the mother to all who are in christ what brings us these fears of being shamed by what others will think or say about us which in contrary could be pleasing to god fears of being humbled fears of being judged as wrong wrt mainstream standard of what is right why can t we tolerate non believers mockery or ridicule of us for the sake of peace love and obedience to god the humbling lessons left to us by martyrs and saints we d rather engage in never ending bickering and disproof of each other s opinion looking at each other s mistakes for the sake of arguments instead of having communion in one body with christ what makes us go blind to the truth that god is all powerful and that he can not be binded by what people wrote and have written about him in all ages why is our faith in god limited by all the words and literature we muster what prevents us from going beyond being saved and extend god s rich love to others who are not why are our eyes not wide open to see that he continuously sees our faith hope and love which glorify him and so he gives us indications of his acknowledgements with signs miracles ordinary common or divinely inspired everywhere isn t that like an atheist agnostic s view that all these are just ordinary here on earth and not caused by anything supernatural why then does the holy mother comes back to remind us we must really accept that prayer changes the course of things and that with prayers even wars can be prevented but then she continues you often have an egotistic attitude dear children in these days you have prayed very much but your hands have remained empty why hesitate in proclaiming what needs to be done prayer conversion peace penance fasting the holy mass living life as what the gospel brings why not do so how to the world to this the mother says start in your family be a good example live the word why worry if it is going to be of good use to many our holy mother says the fruits leave them to the lord do not worry about anything or anyone but entrust yourself to the lord although the holy mother does not insist because you are free i bow before the freedom which god gives you but she follows this with you are surprised because i say to you decide for god and yet see how you have lived this day why does she constantly conveys take this life toward god in the way as to experience the lord himself in your behavior and not only when you pray or one time when we decide that we are saved or talk write about god etc the holy mother warns satan the serpent is always trying to dissuade you to turn you away from my peace plan and prayer rev the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offsprings those who keep god s commandments and bear witness to jesus do you have fear or hate for god s current messenger of true peace love and our motherly protector from the anti christ the one who is being apprehensive of communism wars famine and other evils that the serpent brings upon us this obedient and blessed new eve the mother who warns us so we can be prepared and be strong against satan haven t there been renewed faith hope love peace and obedience wherever this messenger has shared her blessings and graces that god has given her in good purpose why do we choose to be blind why fear the truth that god has been giving us a chance and sharing christ s ever forgetting forgiveness to us through the obedient mother the mother who has been consecrated the task to reverse the disobedient harm and example done by the ancient eve she has been preparing the new eden with her immaculate heart the new eden as sanctuary the womb for the next coming and judgement of the righteous by our lord jesus christ when the lamb marries his bride shouldn t we give her a hand in her exhaustive job of preparing us for the second coming of her son as she has been conceived without sin to bear the son of god in her womb why fear true peace love and renewed faith and obedience to god that mary faithfully brings to god s children she has been protecting the flock the rest of the offsprings from the greedy dragon so as to present more righteous members for her son s coming not all apparitions and miracles that resulted from them are worthy of belief with prayer and guidance from the holy spirit and of course approval of our church authorities we should be aware of the true and divinely inspired ones specifically the ones which aligns with the scripture also our lady reminds us of recommendation of silence in our prayers if you speak unceasingly in your prayers how will you be able to hear god allow him room to answer you to speak to you she encourages us with motherly nurturing to continue in exuberant faith hope and love to jesus constantly not with mere emotions but with deep constant obedience to jesus her beloved son and acknowledgement of our need to have him as part of our lives let s not wait to the last minute to renew our faith and the life that god wants us to live when there won t be enough time or when it will be late nowadays mary says pray pray pray for peace reconciliation my children have peace within yourself first before you can promote peace to others for without peace you can not fully accept my son and you think she s just an ordinary lady not to me she s our good mother messenger from god and she is so nice enough to share god s kingdom to us through her son and experience it with mary we are assured that the lamb always succeeds note all enclosed in quotes are from latest news of medjugorje number june by fr rene laurentin o new mother of eden most pure preparing the sanctuary for true christians cleansing us with peace for god s kingdom come bring us to your loving protective and obedient church that we may belong in one body to your son jesus christ our lord and not go astray from his perfect completeness pray that we ourselves pray with the holy spirit guiding us so that we may help you in strength to conquer the enemies of your son while you prepare us for him with your immaculate heart
soc.religion.christian	re so far so good this may be a really dumb one but i ll ask it anyways christians know that they can never live up to the requirements of god right i may be wrong but that is my understanding but they still try to do it doesn t it seem like we are spending all of our lives trying to reach a goal we can never achieve i know that we are saved by faith and not by works but does that mean that once we are saved we don t have to do anything i think james tells us that faith without works is dead paraphrase how does this work short reply we can never achieve perfect health yet we always strive for it we don t seek to do god s will because we re forced to we follow his way because his way is best the reason it s hard is because we are flawed not because he s unreasonable but we seek to follow his way because we want to improve ourselves and our lives mark
soc.religion.christian	re tuff to be a christian please realize that i am frequently getting in trouble for straying from orthodoxy but here is my opinion in article apr geneva rutgers edu mdbs ms uky edu no name writes moreover the buddha says that we are intrinsically good as against christ s we are all sinners i never thought of these two ideas being against each other people might quibble about what intrinsically means but the reason we are sinners is because we do not behave as good as we are the message of christ is that each of us are not only good but great that we can approach perfection albeit perhaps through a different technique than you claim buddhism teaches because we do not realize our greatness we sin peter had no problem walking on water until a little doubt crept in doesn t david ask in the th psalm what is man that you god should care for him but you have made him just a little lower than the angels i probably exagerate in my mind what a scrawny little kid david was just as i probably exagerate what a gigantic monster goliath was but david s power easily defeated goliath s remember the rich young man who comes up to jesus and asks what he can do to enter the kingdom jesus says follow the commandments i always picture the smug look on his face as he says he s done that his whole life probably anticipating an attaboy from the messiah instead jesus gives him a harder task sell everything and follow him jesus is raising the bar the desciples say how can anyone do this if it s so hard even for rich people jesus says anyone can do it with god s help jesus says not only can we avoid killing people we can avoid getting angry at people not only can we avoid committing adultery we can control our own desires i realize this was not your main point but i wonder how other people see this parting question would you have become a christian if you had not been indoctrinated by your parents you probably never learned about any other religion to make a comparative study and therefore i claim you are brain washed please forgive any generalizations i am about to make your point about how hard other religions are is a good one just as your parting question is a tough question i think that muslims worship the same god as i do we can learn from their name submission hindus and buddhists and taoists etc claim that god is impersonal is god personal or impersonal i say yes but if i think a little more my answer is whichever is greater i think it is greater to be a personal entity with an individual consciousness but you re right that that might be a cultural bias if i think more i must admit that god s personal nature is as far beyond my conception as his impersonal nature is beyond the hindu s conception if somehow jesus could fit into hindu cosmology then maybe i wouldn t have a problem though that is hard to imagine are there any former or present eastern religion members here who could comment chris mussack
soc.religion.christian	re sabbath admissions of general question since the world was discovered to be round the definition of saturday is if not ambiguous at least arbitrary how would someone answer this also when the calendar was changed gregorian to julian was the day of the week changed or just the date once again this points to the arbitrariness of the days chris mussack when calendars change there is no change in the day weekly cycle just months and dates clh
soc.religion.christian	re sspx schism in article apr geneva rutgers edu jhpb sarto budd lake nj us joseph h buehler writes descriptions of true and false obedience obedience is not solely a matter of compliance refusal the nature of the commands must also be taken into account it is not enough to consider someone s compliance or refusal and then say whether they are obedient or disobedient you also have to take into consideration whether the commands are good or bad you ask where we are i would echo that question i m not trying to be contentious but assuming that the pope has universal jurisdiction and authority what authority do you rely upon for your decisions what prevents me from choosing any doctrine i like and saying that papal disagreement is an error that will be resolved in time this is especially true since councils of bishops have basically stood by the pope it appears that much of what lies at the heart of this matter is disagreements over what is tradition and tradition and also over authority and discipline my question to the supporters of sspx is this is there any way that your positions with respect to church reforms could change and be conformed to those of the pope assuming that the pope s position does not change and that the leaders of sspx don t jointly make such choice if not this appears to be claiming infallible teaching authority if i adopt the view that i m not wrong i can t be wrong and there s no way i ll change my mind you must change yours that i ve either left the catholic church or it has left me the orthodox church does not recognize papal authority jurisdiction viewing authority as present in each bishop and in ecumenical councils we regard the subsequent development of the doctrines regarding papal authority and jurisdiction to be a separation of the bishop of rome from the orthodox church without going into the merits of the great schism at least the orthodox agree that a split occurred and don t paly what appear to be semantic games like he s the pope but we don t recognize that what he does is effective words aside it appears to be a de facto split so where are we are we in another arian heresy complete with weak popes or are the sspx priests modern martin luthers well the only way to answer that is to examine who is saying what and what the traditional teaching of the church is we sould argue from now until the second coming about what the real traditional teaching of the church is if this were a simple matter east and west would not have been separated for over years many catholics will decide to side with the pope there is some soundness in this because the papacy is infallible so eventually some pope will straighten all this out i thought that the teaching magisterieum of the church did not allow error in teachings regarding faith and morals even in the short term i may be wrong here i m not roman catholic what would be the effect of a pope making an ex cathedra statement regarding the sspx situation would it be honored if not how do you get around the formal doctrine of infallibility again i m not trying to be contentions i m trying to understand since i m orthodox i ve got no real vested interest in the outcome one way or the other schism is a superset of disobedience refusal to obey a legitimate command all schismatics are disobedient but it s a superset so it doesn t work the other way around not all disobeyers are schismatics the mere fact that the sspx priests don t comply with the holy father s desires doesn t make them schismatics it does if the command was legitimate sspx does not view the pope s commands as legitimate why this is a very slippery slope but my problem with this is this according to the traditional theology of holy orders episcopal consecration does not confer jurisdiction it only confers the power of order the ability to confect the sacraments true enough jurisdiction must be conferred by someone else with the power to confer it such as the pope the society bishops knowing the traditional theology quite well take great pains to avoid any pretence of jurisdiction over anyone they simply confer those sacraments that require a bishop one could argue that they are establishing a non geographic jurisdiction i don t know if that s even a concept or problem in catholic circles larry overacker llo shell com lawrence overacker shell oil company information center houston tx llo shell com
soc.religion.christian	re losing your temper is not a christian trait in article apr athos rutgers edu ruthless panix com ruth ditucci writes one of the tell tale signs fruits that give non christians away is when their net replies are acrid angry and sarcastic we in the net village do have a laugh or two when professed born again christians verbally attack people who might otherwise have been won to christianity and had originally joined the discussions because they were spiritually hungry instead of answering questions with sweetness and sincerity these chrisitan net warriors flame the queries although i certainly agree with the basic sentiment that snideness is unloving and ineffective i m a little disturbed by the formulation that ill temper is not a christian trait it seems like a false argument to say that anyone who displays trait x must not be a christian could well be a sinning christian but a christian nonetheless anger is human and christians are human christians get angry and defensive and react badly just like everyone else it s not perfect righteousness but the effort of seeking righteousness that marks a dedicated christian and one of the greatest gifts of faith to me is that of seeking and accepting forgiveness for my failures expecting flawless behavior from self or others isn t christianity it s perfectionism
soc.religion.christian	some questions from a new christian in a previous article bach udel edu steven r hoskins writes one of my questions i would like to ask is can anyone recommend a good reading list of theological works intended for a lay person i would recommend essential truthes of the christian faith by rc sproul it is copywrited from tyndale house publishers sproul offers concise explanations in simple language of around different christian doctrines grouped by subject i think it would be particularly good for newer christians and older christians suffering spiritual malnutrition as it gives a biblically sound basic treatment of the issues avoiding long in depth analysis that can wait until after you know the basics dave weaver he is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to weaver chdasic sps mot com gain what he cannot lose jim elliot
soc.religion.christian	re god shaped hole was re accepting jeesus in your heart several people were involved in trying to figure out who first used the phrase god shaped hole clh there is a god shaped vacuum in all of us or something to that effect is generally attributed to blaise pascal what i want to know is how can you have a god shaped vacuum inside of you if god is in fact infinite or omnipresent name andrew james fraser e mail fraseraj dcs gla ac uk ese h student university of glasgow standard disclaimers don t you think you re being a tad too literal with this metaphor clh
soc.religion.christian	interfaith weddings hello everyone last week i posted a similar question to alt wedding now i come in search of a deeper level answer my fiance is lutheran and i am catholic we plan on getting married in her church because she is living there now and i plan on moving there in a month or so i called my catholic priest to find out what i needed to do in order for the marriage to be recognized by my church needless to say that i have found that there is no hard and fast rule when it comes to how the catholic law for interfaith weddings is interpreted but i m pretty sure that we can get married without too much problem the trick lies in the letter of dispensation but that is not why i am here what i d like to know is what are the main differences between the lutheran and catholic religions my priest mumbled something about how the eucharist was understood i have heard that if two religions combine soon it would be these two any help would be appreciated thanks so much bill bill burns internet wdburns mtu edu mac network system administrator applelink shadow apple student rep mtu first we must band together as friends then mearcilessly crush our enemies into paste we ve had enough catholic protestant arguments recently that i m not going to accept any renewals i suggest responses via email unless they are clearly non controversial i would be happy to see positive summaries of both important catholic and lutheran beliefs among other things they d be useful for the faq collection but i m not up for yet another battle clh
soc.religion.christian	re the arrogance of christians in article apr athos rutgers edu aa freenet carleton ca mark baker writes i am asking you to believe in things not visible i don t know if this is believeing blindly or not if you decide in advance that your reason will act only on the evidence of the five physical senses then you cut reason off from any possibility of reaching a conclusion outside the physical sphere someone said thinking if i could see i would believe then someone said believe and you will see
soc.religion.christian	re so far so good in article apr athos rutgers edu armstrng cs dal ca stan armstrong writes in article c z u jxo spss com luomat alleg edu writes this may be a really dumb one but i ll ask it anyways christians know that they can never live up to the requirements of god right i may be wrong but that is my understanding but they still try to do it doesn t it seem like we are spending all of our lives trying to reach a goal we can never achieve i know that we are saved by faith and not by works but does that mean that once we are saved we don t have to do anything i think james tells us that faith without works is dead paraphrase how does this work so long as we think that good things are what we have to do rather than what we come to want to do we miss the point the more we love god the more we come to love what and whom he loves when i find that what i am doing is not good it is not a sign to try even harder romans it is a sign to seek god when i am aware of jesus presence i usually want what he wants it is his strenth his love that empowers my weakness stan armstrong religious studies dept saint mary s university halifax n s armstrong husky stmarys ca att clyde watmath water dalcs armstrng i apologize to the moderator but the first quote was deleted and i would like to respond to both as for the goal we can never achieve the reward comes from the trying paul makes a clear claim that we are to continue straining for the prize over in philippians only by not living out the commands do we stagnate and become lukewarm to be spit out by jesus as it says in john this is love for god to obey his comands that obedience is our straining to achieve for god of course this requires work on our part as for the quote in james satan doesn t care what we believe what matters is the results of our belief works if one truly has faith in what one believes one will either act on that faith or be lying to oneself about believing in the first place stan as for your first line you have a very good point obedience by obligation grudgery is not what god desires instead look at how many times the bible talks about being joyous in all situations and when doing god s work being begrudged by the work has no value also we should do the work necessary whenever we can not just when we feel jesus presence feelings can deceive us however as paul states to timothy in timothy preach the word be prepared in season and out of season correct rebuke and encourage with great patience and careful instruction also remember that paul tells timothy in timothy watch your life and doctrine closely persevere in them because if you do you will save both yourself and your hearers so in order to do the work necessary we need to be sure that we are correct first remember jesus warning in matthew not to be hypocritical about what we do the best way to accomplish this is to be a disciple completely in both thought and deed joe fisher
soc.religion.christian	library of congress to host dead sea scroll symposium april library of congress to host dead sea scroll symposium april to national and assignment desks daybook editor contact john sullivan or lucy suddreth both of the library of congress washington april a symposium on the dead sea scrolls will be held at the library of congress on wednesday april and thursday april the two day program cosponsored by the library and baltimore hebrew university with additional support from the project judaica foundation will be held in the library s mumford room sixth floor madison building seating is limited and admission to any session of the symposium must be requested in writing see note a the symposium will be held one week before the public opening of a major exhibition scrolls from the dead sea the ancient library of qumran and modern scholarship that opens at the library of congress on april on view will be fragmentary scrolls and archaeological artifacts excavated at qumran on loan from the israel antiquities authority approximately items from library of congress special collections will augment these materials the exhibition on view in the madison gallery through aug is made possible by a generous gift from the project judaica foundation of washington d c the dead sea scrolls have been the focus of public and scholarly interest since when they were discovered in the desert miles east of jerusalem the symposium will explore the origin and meaning of the scrolls and current scholarship scholars from diverse academic backgrounds and religious affiliations will offer their disparate views ensuring a lively discussion the symposium schedule includes opening remarks on april at p m by librarian of congress james h billington and by dr norma furst president baltimore hebrew university co chairing the symposium are joseph baumgarten professor of rabbinic literature and institutions baltimore hebrew university and michael grunberger head hebraic section library of congress geza vermes professor emeritus of jewish studies oxford university will give the keynote address on the current state of scroll research focusing on where we stand today on the second day the closing address will be given by shmaryahu talmon who will propose a research agenda picking up the theme of how the qumran studies might proceed on wednesday april other speakers will include eugene ulrich professor of hebrew scriptures university of notre dame and chief editor biblical scrolls from qumran on the bible at qumran michael stone national endowment for the humanities distinguished visiting professor of religious studies university of richmond on the dead sea scrolls and the pseudepigrapha from p m to p m a special preview of the exhibition will be given to symposium participants and guests on thursday april beginning at a m speakers will include magen broshi curator shrine of the book israel museum jerusalem on qumran the archaeological evidence p kyle mccarter albright professor of biblical and ancient near eastern studies the johns hopkins university on the copper scroll lawrence h schiffman professor of hebrew and judaic studies new york university on the dead sea scrolls and the history of judaism and james vanderkam professor of theology university of notre dame on messianism in the scrolls and in early christianity the thursday afternoon sessions at p m include devorah dimant associate professor of bible and ancient jewish thought university of haifa on qumran manuscripts library of a jewish community norman golb rosenberger professor of jewish history and civilization oriental institute university of chicago on the current status of the jerusalem origin of the scrolls shmaryahu talmon j l magnas professor emeritus of biblical studies hebrew university jerusalem on the essential commune of the renewed covenant how should qumran studies proceed will close the symposium there will be ample time for question and answer periods at the end of each session also on wednesday april at a m the library of congress and the israel antiquities authority will hold a lecture by esther boyd alkalay consulting conservator israel antiquities authority on preserving the dead sea scrolls in the mumford room lm james madison memorial building the library of congress independence ave s e washington d c note a for more information about admission to the symposium please contact in writing dr michael grunberger head hebraic section african and middle eastern division library of congress washington d c canada remote systems toronto ontario
soc.religion.christian	re sabbath admissions of in article apr athos rutgers edu dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu darius lecointe writes you cannot show from scripture that the weekly sabbath is part of the ceremonial laws before you post a text in reply investigate its context first of all ceremonial law is an extrascriptural term it is sometimes used as a framework to view scripture but if you look at collosions without going into it with the assumption that the sabbath cannot be a ceremonial law you will see that it does refer to the sabbath paul writes in collosions how that christ nailed the laws that were against us to his cross and therefore we should not be judged in what what food we eat what we drink the keeping of new moons and holy days or the keeping of the sabbath the word for sabbath in this verse is sabbaton and is used throughout the new testament to refer to the th day if there is any scripture from which we get the idea of the ceremonial law this is one of them and the sabbath is listed among the ceremonial laws if one goes into this with the fundamental assumption the sabbath cannot be a ceremonial law then he will have to find some way around it like saying that this can only refer to the other sabbath holy days besides the th day because the sabbath cannot be a ceremonial law but paul is very careful in his letters to add some kind of parenthetcal statement if there is anything that can be seen as a liscence to sin in his writings also why is the sabbath absent from the epistles except for hebrews which talks about the rest that comes through faith surely it would have been a big problem for first century christians living in a society that did not rest on the th day especially slaves many new converst were slaves it would have been difficult for slaves to rest on the sabbath if it had been mandatory why is there no mention of this in the epistles link hudson
soc.religion.christian	re atheist s views on christianity was re accepting jeesus in your heart in article apr athos rutgers edu kempmp phoenix oulu fi petri pihko writes jason smith jasons atlastele com wrote the discussion begins why does the universe exist at all one of the laws of nature specifying cause and effect seems to dictate at least to this layman s mind there must be a causal event no reasonable alternative exists i would argue that causality is actually a property of spacetime causes precede their effects and i must concede here cause before effect implies time time is part of spacetime hense the argument would be valid i could return and say that this does not infer the cause and effect relationship being unique to this spacetime but i won t because the point is moot doesn t address why which petri pikho addresses below i also concede that i was doubly remiss as i asserted no reasonable alternative exists an entirely subjective statement on my part and one that could be invalidated given time and further discovery by the scientist i also understand that a proving a theory does not necessarily specify that this is how it happened but proposes a likely description of the phenomena in question am i mistaken with this understanding but if you claim that there must be an answer to how did the universe our spacetime emerge from nothing science has some good candidates for an answer all of which require something we christians readily admit to faith the fact that there are several candidates belies that none are conclusive with out conclusive evidence we are left with faith it could even be argued that one of these hypotheses may one day be proven as best as a non repeatable event can be proven but i ask what holds someone today to the belief that any or all of them are correct except by faith a couple of paragraphs deleted summary we ask why does the universe exist i think this question should actually be split into two parts namely why is there existence why anything exists and how did the universe emerge from nothing it is clear science has nothing to say about the first question however is it a meaningful question after all i would say it isn t consider the following apparently it is for many persons hence we have religions the question why anything exists can be countered by demanding answer to a question why there is nothing in nothingness or in non existence actually both questions turn out to be devoid of meaning things that exist do and things that don t exist don t exist tautology at its best carefully examine the original question and then the counter question the first asks why while the second is a request for definition it doesn t address why something does or does not exist but asks to define the lack of existence the second question is unanswerable indeed for how do we identify something as nothing aren t they mutually exclusive terms how do we identify a state of non existence again this is nearing the limits of this simple layman s ability to comprehend and i would appreciate an explanation i might add the worldview of things that exist do and things that don t don t is as grounded in the realm of the non falsifiable as does the theist s belief in god it is based on the assumption that there is not a reason for being something as ultimately un supportable as the position of there being a reason its very foundation exists in the same soil as that of one who claims there is a reason we come to this either i am therefore i am or i am for a reason if the former is a satisfactory answer then you are done for you are satisfied and need not a doctor if the latter your search is just beginning i seriously doubt god could have an answer to this question time will tell some christians i have talked to have said that actually god is himself the existence however i see several problems with this answer first it inevitably leads to the conclusion that god is actually all existence good and evil devils and angels us and them this is pantheism not christianity agreed it would lead me to question their definition of christianity as well another answer is that god is the source of all existence this sounds much better but i am tempted to ask does god himself exist then if god is the source of his own existence it can only mean that he has in terms of human time always existed but this is not the same as the source of all existence this does not preclude his existence it only seeks to identify his qualities implying he exists to have qualities btw the best answer i have heard is that human reasoning is incapable of understanding such questions being an atheist myself i do not accept such answers since i do not have any other methods like the theist we come to a statement of faith for this position assumes that the evidence at hand is conclusive note i am not arguing against scientific endeavor for science is useful for understanding the universe in which we exist but i differ from the atheist in a matter of perspective i seek to understand what exists to understand and appreciate the art of the creator i also have discovered science is an inadequate tool to answer why it appears that m pihko agrees as we shall see but because a tool is inadequate to answer a question does not preclude the question asserting that why is an invalid question does not provide an answer as far as i can tell the very laws of nature demand a why that isn t true of something outside of nature i e super natural this is not true science is a collection of models telling us how not why something happens i cannot see any good reason why the why questions would be bound only to natural things assuming that the supernatural domain exists if supernatural beings exist it is as appropriate to ask why they do so as it is to ask why we exist my apologies i was using why as why did this come to be why did pre existence become existence why did pre spacetime become spacetime but we come to the admission that science fails to answer why because it can t be answered in the realm of modern science does that make the question invalid i don t believe any technology would be able to produce that necessary spark of life despite having all of the parts available just my opinion this opinion is also called vitalism namely that living systems are somehow fundamentally different from inanimate systems do christians in general adopt this position what would happen when scientists announce they have created primitive life say small bacteria in a lab i suppose we would do the same thing as when galileo or capernicus was vindicated before someone starts jumping up and down screaming inquisition note i said vindicated i certainly hope we ve gotten beyond the shooting the messenger stage m pihko does present a good point though we may need to ask what do i as an individual christian base my faith on will it be shaken by the production of evidence that shatters our sacred cows or will we seek to understand if a new discovery truly disagrees with what god said and continues to say in his word why do i ask why apologies to budweiser and company jason jason d smith jasons atlastele com i m not young enough to know everything x
soc.religion.christian	re does just justifiable war exist some thoughts a on the non pacifist side killing to defend the innocent may be if anything more justifiable than killing in self defense i can turn my own other cheek but i have no right to turn someone else s it seems to me that if jesus had meant to teach pacifism he would have made his position more explicit he didn t tell the centurion to leave the army for instance and the nt is full of military metaphors b on the pacifist side apparently many early christians refused to fight in the roman army or stated that one should refuse if given a choice but it s not clear whether they were objecting to war per se or objecting to roman policies in modern warfare it seems to be impossible to direct attacks only at combatants bombing both conventional and nuclear kills lots of civilians it s hard to tell whether any particular war is justified at the time often it takes decades for the requisite information to become available to the general public please no email replies this is meant as a contribution to a public discussion and anyone wanting to reply should also reply publicly michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
soc.religion.christian	re divine providence vs murphy s law in article apr athos rutgers edu rolfe junior dsu edu tim rolfe writes romans rsv we know that in everything god works for good with those who love him who are called according to his purpose murphy s law if anything can go wrong it will we are all quite familiar with the amplifications and commentary on murphy s law but how do we harmonize that with romans for that matter how appropriate is humor contradicted by scripture i ve always taken murphy s law to be an exhortation to prudence and an observation about the behavior of complex systems rather than a denial of divine benevolence michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
soc.religion.christian	re being right about messiahs the following is my comment on an article by desiree bradley clh by the way from koresh s public statement it s not so clear to me that he is claiming to be christ koresh did originally claim to be the christ but then backed off and said he was a prophet the latest news at cdt from waco is that the feds broke through a wall of the compound with a tank no news besides that at this time paul
soc.religion.christian	questioning authority chris mussack writes for all those people who insist i question authority why how about the holocaust the spanish inquisition jonestown just to name a few authorities sometimes tell people to do evil things people who just follow orders have tortured and killed others in very large numbers and protest their innocence afterwards when your authority starts telling you to do things you should ask questions except for situations of pressing need i said shut the hatch because the submarine is filling with water any reasonable authority should be able to give at least some justification that you can understand just be sure to listen when authority answers if anybody is interested in questions of psychological pressure and following orders you might want to read about a study done by solomon ashe in on conformity and another done by stanley milgram in on obedience both should be in any good book on psychology sociology the results are both fascinating and terrifying darren f provine kilroy gboro rowan edu we do what we re told we do what we re told we do what we re told told to do peter gabriel
soc.religion.christian	re christian parenting sorry for posting this but my e mail keeps bouncing maybe it will help others here anyway and therefore i pray others will read this it is actually a response from my aunt who has kids since i have none yet hi i am a sociology student and i am currently researching into young offenders i am looking at the way various groups of children are raised at home at the moment i am formlulating information on discipline within the christian home please if you are a parent in this catagory can you email me your response to the following questionaire all responses will be treated confidentially and will only be used to prepare stats i m posting this for a good christian relative who does not have e mail access since this aunt and uncle have kids i felt they would be more relevant than i who have none yet ages sexes of children year old yo twins yo boy yo boy yo girl do you spank your kids i don t call it spanking but they do so yes very rarely if so how often i don t call it spanking because it s more of a reaction to something very dangerous such as trying to stick their finger in a fan or running into the road maybe times for each except for the yo girl who has not been spanked yet they call it that because it does hurt their feelings and of course i give all the hugs and stuff to ensure they know they re still loved do you use an implement to spank with no that would be too painful if it s too traumatic they never recall why they were punished besides it must be immediate and taking the time to go get a toolmeans you re not doing it right away and that lessens the impact it s very emotional for a child as it is which is evidenced by the fact that a little slap on the rear which hurts for perhaps seconds is called a spanking if you do not spank what method of discipline do you use lots of logical consequences for instance when yo matthew dared a good friend to jump out of his treehouse or he would push him out i made sure they didn t play together for days so he d know that would make him lose friends very quickly he s never done anything like that since we also use time out in their rooms i use a timer so they don t keep arguing with me over leaving since it s hard to argue with a macine i will go to the closed door and tell them timeout won t be over until they calm down if they re too tantrumy i use the top of the stairs when they re really young your age your location bath ohio it s right outside of akron in the northeast part of ohio while under the age of did you ever commit a criminal offence no and none of my kids would dream of it i hope you can use this to teach all parents that physical punishment isn t always required parents use that as an excuse to hit too hard how ere you disciplined as a kid lots of timeouts same as i use our family and my husband s have never used spankings in fact my grandmother in law was one of kids and they were almost never spanked this was around the turn of the century and none of us has ever been afoul of the law man made or god s law jesus says referring to a small child whom he is holding that what ye do to the least of these ye do also to me the bible also says in all things to be kind and merciful and especially loving colossians there is no room for selfish anger which i ll admit i ve been tempted with at times when i ve felt like spanking hard in anger maybe the kid deserved a little slap on the rear but what i would have given would have been the devil s work i could feel the temptation and just angrily ordered the kid to his her room and went to my room myself after praying and asking god s forgiveness i was much calmer and did not feel like spanking but felt that what i had done was enough punishment doug fowler dxf po cwru edu me age now mommys and daddys other ever wonder if after casey relatives have to give lots of hugs love missed the rd strike in the poem support cause heaven is just a great he ran to first and made it big hug that lasts forever and ever
soc.religion.christian	re phone number of wycliffe translators uk in article apr geneva rutgers edu mprc troi cc rochester edu m price writes i m concerned about a recent posting about wbt sil i thought they d pretty much been denounced as a right wing organization involved in ideological manipulation and cultural interference including vietnam and south america a commission from mexican academia denounced them in as a covert political and ideological institution used by the u s govt as an instrument of control regulation penetration espionage and repression i have personally know quite of few of the wycliffe bible translators as an organization their fundamental purpose is to translate the scriptures into the native languages which in terms usual means learning it and developing a written language along with teaching the natives to read it is not associated with the u s govt at all many governments want the help of the translators to the best of my knowledge the mexican government now encourages them to come their idea is not cultural interference but the presentation of the good news to understand more about what they do i suggest you read some of the books autobiographical and biographical about some of the translators one that stands out in my mind as an excellent is called peace child this would give a true picture of what their mission is my concern is that this group may be seen as acceptable and even praiseworthy by readers of soc religion christian it s important that christians don t immediately accept every christian organization as automatically above reproach mp i agree with this statement but we cannot also accept what others say without looking into the issues that would be the same as taking suddan s discussion about the cia etc as being true we must look at both sides cathy bareiss
soc.religion.christian	re question about virgin mary a faris trl oz au aziz faris writes helllo netters i was told the bible says that god took the body of the virgin mary as she was being carried for burial is this true if so were in the bible does it say that regards a faris i think you re talking about the assumption of the blessed virgin mary it says that the immaculate mother of god the ever virgin mary having completed the course of her earthly life was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory this was defined by a papal statement in though it had certainly been believed by some before that like the immaculate conception this is primarily a roman catholic doctrine and like it it has no direct biblical support note that catholics do not believe in sola scriptura that is they do not believe that the bible is the only source of christian knowledge thus the fact that a doctrine has little biblical support is not necessarily significant to them they believe that truth can be passed on through traditions of the church and also that it can be revealed to the church i m not interested in yet another catholic protestant argument but if any catholics can tell us the basis for these beliefs i think it would be appropriate clh again i find myself wanting to respond to a posting and having neither the time nor the proper materials with me you would think i would learn my lesson by now but i m trying to finish writing my thesis and don t have tons of time anyway the basis for our the catholic church s belief in the assumption of mary body and soul into heaven is that to put it simply the apostles and all the early generation christians believed it in fact throughout their ministry the apostles kept in close contact with mary and of the were present when she died only thomas was missing when he arrived several days later he asked to be shown her body and moved with pity peter and several of the other apostles brought him to her tomb when they arrived the seal was still unbroken they broke the seal entered and the body was missing there was no sign that anyone had entered forcibly or otherwise and everything else was laid out exactly as it had been left the apostles present all believed that mary was assumed into heaven and the apostles taught this in their preaching of course this does not appear in any of the texts currently considered part of the bible but it does appear in other writings left behind by several of them basicaly as an apostolic church ie founded by the apostles we believe that the teachings of the apostles whether written down in the bible or written down in other sources is true providing that the authenticity of those other sources can be confirmed at least in the case of the assumption of mary the authenticity is quite clear hope this helps i would welcome anyone who has more information to add to what i ve said mike walker mdw uxa cso uiuc edu univ of illinois
soc.religion.christian	re question about virgin mary in article may athos rutgers edu a faris trl oz au aziz faris writes i think you re talking about the assumption of the blessed virgin mary it says that the immaculate mother of god the ever virgin mary having completed the course of her earthly life was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory this was defined by a papal statement in though it had certainly been believed by some before that clh so true i m not sure of the basis of the belief but it was a widely held belief among the laity of the rc church and their support of it lead to it being declared to be true basically the teaching on infallibility holds that the pope is infallible in matters of faith and doctrine the college of bishops is likewise infallible and the laity is as well the pope gets most of the attention criticism but the consensus of the other bodies is equally infallible according to rc teaching joe moore
soc.religion.christian	re what was the immaculate conception biblical basis for the immaculate conception i will put enmity between you the serpent and the woman and between your seed and her seed she can also be read he shall crush your head and you shall bruise her or his heel genesis he who commits sin is of the devil john hail full of grace greek kecharitomene the lord is with thee luke from the above we prove the doctrine of the immaculate conception first god has given the proto evangel in genesis which is the first promise of a savior who will redeem mankind from the wiles of satan satan was a murderer from the beginning and has not stood in the truth because there is no truth in him john now the proto evangel promises several things enmity between satan and the woman and enmity between satan and her seed now the woman is both eve who is the immediate point of reference and mary the second eve her seed is jesus christ and he is also at enmity with satan in the same way as mary is said to be at enmity with satan thus knowing as we do that jesus christ is sinless hebrews we can conclude that mary is also sinless because if she wasn t she would not be at enmity with the devil as john tells us and the relation of her sinlessness to christ s sinlessness would be called into question as would god s veracity for god promised an enmity between mary and the serpent and it is not possible for god to lie or be decieved second we have the angelic greeting where mary is called by the archangle gabriel full of grace as i pointed out above this is from the greek word kecharitomene which means not just full of grace but a plenitude or perfection of grace the sense of it is best grasped by the footnote to the jerusalem bible hail you who have been and reamin filled with grace but that is a little to long to say so it is reduced to full of grace and as it says you who have been mary had always been filled with grace from the moment of her conception which was also the moment of her salvation until her death some years later it must be admitted that it is possible that god could have done what the doctrine of the immaclute conception says he did do and if god could keep himself free from any contact with sin through his mother he would have and the bible records this fact to which the fathers of the church such as st john damascus st augustine of hippo st ambrose and others are in complete agreement with as is all of christian tradition and as is the infallible declaration of the pope on the matter in ineffibilus deus andy byler
soc.religion.christian	re satanic tounges in article may geneva rutgers edu mmh dcs qmw ac uk matthew huntbach writes i have seen the claims but i don t know if there are any authenticated cases of people making prolonged speeches in real languages they don t know from my observations speaking in tongues in practice has nothing at all do with this i have a simple test i take several people who can speak only one language e g chinese russian german english then i let the gifted one start speaking in toungues the audience should understand the gifted one clearly in their native language however the gifted one can only hear himself speaking in his own language works everytime perhaps i would believe the gifted ones more if they were glorifying god rather than themselves then perhaps we d witness a real miracle mark ashley disclaimer my opinions not harris marka gcx ssd csd harris com the lost los angelino
soc.religion.christian	babylon book offer from time to time i have made reference to a book called the two babylons which is a book written by alexander hislop mid s about the babylonian mystery religion and its flight through history i was unable to put it down the first time i read it but others have found it dry it has numberable references and illustrations if you are interested in purchasing your own copy you can call moody book store and order it for and they will ship it to you it is a good book just to get the reference titles for your own digs into the mystery religions i have found it invaluable for that purpose alone but for those who only want to skim the subject it comes highly recommended just a note to my rc brothers and sisters you may find this to be a diatribe or you may find it to be a test to the origin and true nature of the origin of rcism if you are offended by anything that asks hard questions about your denomination as to whether or not it is christian then perhaps you should just passover this offer to those who are a little more adventurous go for it and later please contact me with you reasons pro or con on the scholorship of this book i really would be interested adelphoi ev christos rex
soc.religion.christian	re march for jesus the only info i have is my area is not having a large march they are leaving it up to each congragation imo this means organizers found it too difficult to manage or no one feels the need to be involved i m not casting stones my involvement with the lord does not include the march this year maybe he is giving a message by the lack of one jls jerry l storrs systems manager u got b tru dept of chemical engineering u got b livin what u say u believe north carolina state university u got b tru raleigh nc even when nobody but jesus is watchin u fax storrs che ncsu edu preferred steven curtis chapman
soc.religion.christian	re record burning rgolder hoh mbl edu robert golder writes the movie version of the last temptation of christ was so awful that practically no one would have seen it or been influenced by its message had not conservatives loudly protested its distribution they unwittingly created a larger market for the movie in many places christians were sucessful in their attempts to get the films banned or at least given a very restrictive showing i have no problem with christians burning their own pieces of art though i find it a tragic waste i do however have a problem with their attempts to censor what i may or may not view p moorcockpratchettdenislearydelasoulu iainmbanksneworderheathersbatmanpjorourke clive p a u l m o l o n e y come let us retract the foreskin of misconception james trinity college dublin and apply the wire brush of enlightenment geoffm brownbladerunnersugarcubeselectronicblaylockpowersspikeleekatebushhamcornpizza
soc.religion.christian	monophysites and mike walker mike walker if you are using the standard formula of fully god and fully human that i m not sure why you object to saying that jesus was human i think the usual analysis would be that sin is not part of the basic definition of humanity it s a consequence of the fall jesus is human but not a fallen human clh the proper term for what mike expresses is monophysitism this was a heresy that was condemned in the council of chalcedon in ad it grew up in reaction to nestorianism which held that the son and jesus are two different people who happened to be united in the same body temporarily monophysitism is held by the copts of egypt and ethipoia and by the jacobites of syria and the armenian orthodox it believes that jesus christ was god which is correct that he was man which is correct that he was one person which is correct but that he had only one nature and one will and oen energy which is heretical the orthodox position is that he had two natures and two wills and two energies both divine and human though the wills were in perfect harmony that is what mike is trying to get across that while jesus came in human form mike says he did not have a human nature or a human will in reality he had both though neither made him subject to original sin it is interesting to note that the monothelites were a reaction to this conflict and attempted to solve the problem by admitting two natures but not two wills or two energies it also was condemned at a late council in constantinople i believe andy byler these issues get mighty subtle when you see people saying different things it s often hard to tell whether they really mean seriously different things or whether they are using different terminology i don t think there s any question that there is a problem with nestorius and i would agree that the saying christ had a human form without a real human nature or will is heretical but i d like to be a bit wary about the copts armenians etc recent discussions suggest that their monophysite position may not be as far from orthodoxy as many had thought nestorius was an extreme representative of one of the two major schools of thought more moderate representatives were regarded as orthodox e g theodore of mopsuestia my impression is that the modern monophysite groups inherit the entire tradition not just nestorius version and that some of them may have a sufficient balanced position to be regarded as orthodox clh
soc.religion.christian	daily verse the god of peace will soon crush satan under your feet the grace of our lord jesus be with you romans
soc.religion.christian	christ my advocate a poem my advocate i sinned and straightway posthaste satan flew before the presence of the most high god and made a railing accusation there he said this soul this thing of clay and sod has sinned tis true that he has named thy name but i demand his death for thou hast said the soul that sinneth it shall die shall not thy sentence be fulfilled is justice dead send now this wretched sinner to his doom what other thing can righteous ruler do thus satan did accuse me day and night and every word he spoke o god was true then quickly one rose up from god s right hand before whose glory angels veiled their eyes he spoke each jot and tittle of the law must be fulfilled the guilty sinner dies but wait suppose his guilt were all transferred to me and that i paid his penalty behold my hands my side my feet one day i was made sin for him and died that he might be presented faultless at thy throne and satan flew away full well he knew that he could not prevail against such love for every word my dear lord spoke was true by martha snell nicholson i heard this poem read last night and wanted to share it with other subscribers of this newsgroup it s such a wonderful blessing to see how secure our salvation is because the lord jesus paid for what he did not owe because we had a debt which we were not capable to pay thanks and praise be to the savior the lord jesus christ who is seated at the right hand of the majesty on high making intercession for us liane brown internet brownli ohsu edu
soc.religion.christian	re homosexuality issues in christianity in article apr geneva rutgers edu fsspr acad alaska edu wrote this subject was beaten to death on bit listserv christia recently until madge stepped in and closed the topic it has been discussed since privately in e mail amongst their participants and i ve received some of it a fairly large file approx kb of comments made on the march on washington was among these if it hasn t been posted here already i don t know i just scan through this newsgroup as at bps i couldn t possibly read it all i would be glad to send it along i believe that it would be of interest to people here i hope that anyone who remembers seeing rev troy perry s performance at the march on washington will see for themselves just how inconceivable it is to mix christianity with homosexuality sean patrick ryan fsspr aurora alaska edu or sean freds cojones com you might visit some congregations of christians who happen to be homosexuals that are spirit filled believers not mcc rs before you go lumping us all together with troy perry the lord is working in our community the homosexual community that is he s not asking us to change our sexual nature but he is calling us to practice the morality that he established from the beginning isn t satan having a hayday pitting christian against christian over any issue he can especially homosexuality let s reach the homosexuals for christ let s not try to change them just need to bring them to christ if he doesn t want them to be gay he can change that if they are living a moral life committed to someone of the same sex and god is moving in their lives who are we to tell them they have to change that s my two cent god bless you all loisc
soc.religion.christian	re my original post was jesus black my my my i knew that i would receive a response to my post but not this extensive thank you to all who responded it at least showed that people were willing to think about it even though the general response was a return to the same old why should it matter question to those of you who were a part of this response i suggest that you read the articles covering this same question in soc culture african american for you are in dire need of some cultural enlightenment hasta luego sherlette
soc.religion.christian	going permanent no mail well it s that time of year again here at iu graduation unfortunately this means that i am out of here more than likely for good i cannot say if i ll be in here under another username or not or even if i ll ever get back in here at all i am leaving this part of my ministry to another brother john right so have fun and remember that flaming can be considered slander joe fisher
soc.religion.christian	re question about virgin mary in article may athos rutgers edu a faris trl oz au aziz faris says a faris posting deleted the moderator replies i think you re talking about the assumption of the blessed virgin mary it says that the immaculate mother of god the ever virgin mary having completed the course of her earthly life was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory this was defined by a papal statement in though it had certainly been believed by some before that like the immaculate conception this is primarily a roman catholic doctrine and like it it has no direct biblical support note that catholics do not believe in sola scriptura that is they do not believe that the bible is the only source of christian knowledge thus the fact that a doctrine has little biblical support is not necessarily significant to them they believe that truth can be passed on through traditions of the church and also that it can be revealed to the church i m not interested in yet another catholic protestant argument but if any catholics can tell us the basis for these beliefs i think it would be appropriate clh that is generally accuate but contains one serious error we catholics do believe that god s revealed truth that is not explicitly recorded in the bible can be and is passed on through the tradition of the church it should be noted that the tradition of the church otherwise known as sacred tradition is not the same as ordinary human traditions however we do not believe that additional truth will be revealed to the church public revelation which is the basis of catholic doctrine ended with the death of st john the last apostle nothing new can be added theologians study this revelation and can draw out implications that were not recognized previously so that the council of nicea could define statements about the theology of the trinity and the incarnation that were not explicitly stated in the bible and had been disputed before the council but there was no new revelation at nicea or at any subsequent council cardinal newman s an essay on the development of christian doctrine written while he was still an anglican is an excellent discussion of of this point it was recently reprinted as a doubleday image books paperback with some related shorter works under the title conscience consensus and the development of doctrine marty helgesen bitnet mnhcc cunyvm internet mnhcc cunyvm cuny edu what if there were no such thing as a hypothetical situation
soc.religion.christian	major views of the trinity may d andrew byler writes to all dab i think i need to again post the athanasian creed whicc pretty well dab delinieates orthodox christian belief on the trinity and on the dab incarnation dab it s a pretty good statement of the beliefs eventually accpeted and the dab creed is in use by the catholic church as well as the lutheran dab anglican and orthodox churches the last minus the filioque which they dab delete from the original form of the creed do you have any evidence that it is used by the orthodox churches as far as i know it is purely western like the apostles creed the orthodox churches use the symbol of faith commonly called the nicene creed steve hayes department of missiology university of south africa golded
soc.religion.christian	re athiests and hell in article apr geneva rutgers edu rexlex fnal fnal gov writes in article apr geneva rutgers edu sun gerry palo uunet uu net gerry palo writes note that in this perhaps the oldest of the creeds there is no mention of the danger of hell for non believers likewise there is no mention of the salvation of the believers soul and its destiny in heaven after death there is only the resurrection of the body and it does not say when or how you don t go far enough back if we believe in god and that he did create the heavens and the earth and he did create adam and eve and that they walked in the garden and history flowed from there if we can agree with that then would you agree that the further back you go the closer you get to people who had a stronger memory of who god was and what he said and commanded between adam and eve and golgotha the whole process of the fall of man occurred this involved a gradual dimming of consciousness of the spiritual world this is discernable in the world outlooks of different peoples through history the greek for example could say better a beggar in the land of the living than a king in the land of the dead iliad i think the question of what happens to human beings who died before christ is an ever present one with christians i am not ready to conscign adam or abraham or even cain to eternal damnation yet they all died in their sins in the christian sense the same can be said of the whole of gentile humanity and also of the unrepentant malefactor on the cross next to him i do not limit the power of christ to save even him through whom satan would mock his deed of salvation at the very moment of its fulfillment in my studies of the ancient mystery reliegions i have run across many poems or rituals or what nots with the interpretation that those who are of god will be with him via the promised seed but those who rebel will suffer eternal life in dieing it was a standard belief back then it is possible to experience eternity in a passing moment the relationship of eternity to duration is not simply one of indefinitely extended conditions of greenwich mean time it is possible to imagine an eternity of agony or bliss or even many of them in the spiritual world during the time between earthly death and a new birth it was also a standard belief among many peoples that even the righteous were lost this again is the result of the loss of the paradisal consciousness that fled from us after the fall with our ever increasing involvement with the sense world it would be interesting to share in the results of your studies of ancient people s ideas of life after death today we think we know so much and that if we could go back in time we could sure teach those people a thing or two but i think that as this age has grown older that it is we who opperate from a mist not those of the older ages mankind fell into mist and darkness and at the turning point of time a new light entered into the world the light still grows and we are developing the eyes with which to see by it much new revelation and growth in under standing lies before us our new vision and understanding is still very feeble but it contains something new that will grow in time to embrace that which is old and much more as well at this point i should acknowledge openly my debt to the work of rudolf steiner founder of anthroposophy for many insights that have led me to my views on this subject i have said it before i d love to post on this but the vulcan hammer would fall the history to purgatory can be shown from the druids in england to the greeks who pilaged it from the egyptians who ultimately got it from the babylonian mysteries and yes the eastern religions also show many similarities i mean its black and white the writings and the archeological finds plainly show its origin and the whys and wherefores of this doctine the way you refer to it as doctrine puts a modern intellectual coloring on it i think it was much less abstract and much more real and spiritually concrete a teaching that struck much closer to home than our doctrines or teachings today can be received i am not so ready to attribute widespread notions in antiquity to simple dispersion from an original source even if they were passed on the question is to what extent did they reflect real perception and experience the similarity in the midst of great variety of expression of the different people s ideas of the time immediately after death testifies to the presence of an underlying reality in any case we study geometry not by reading old manuscripts of euclid but by contemplating the principles themselves on the other hand there is one notion firmly embedded in christianity that originated most definitely in a pagan source the idea that the human being consists essentially of soul only and that the soul is created at birth was consciously adopted from aristotle whose ideas dominated christian thought for fifteen hundred years and still does today he was at once the father of modern thought and at the same time lived during that darkened time when the perception of our eternal spiritual being had grown dim maybe at sometime in the future indeed i should also clarify that i do not deny that eternal irrevocable damnation is a real possibility but the narrow range in which we conceive of the decisive moment i e after the end of a single earthly life is not in my mind sufficient to embrace the reality and i think that is why the early creeds were couched in terms that did not try to spell it out rex gerry compuserve com
soc.religion.christian	re the arrogance of christians in article may geneva rutgers edu you wrote the genius of science is that it discovered that enormous progress in knowledge could be made by isolating the study of physical interactions for the more general areas of study and proceeding not by logical argument but by experiment the scientific method is hypothesize attempt to disprove the hypothesis if you fail publish if others fail to disprove your hypothesis accept it as a working theory and move on this method is suitable only for the study of objects without will objects which do not take an interest in the experiment science does not progress via experimentation but by philosophising one aim of experiments is to investigate the validity of the hyptheses resulting from the models produced by this thinking process the arrogance of science is the assumption many advocates of science make that the scientific method is the only method of serious study the only one leading to knowledge rather than belief science has one advantage of all other approaches to explaining the world it is objective its further arrogance is the assumption which arises that since science is the only valid method of thought everything which exists must be the sort of thing which the scientific method can study and that if the scientific method cannot study it it either does not exist or cannot in any way be known anything which affects the physical world can be studied for example since we are part of the physical world anything including spirits which affects our behaviour can be observed science does not make any claims about the existence or non existence of objects which do not affect the physical world since these asumptions about the nature of the world cannot themselves be made the subject of experiment it is bad science to believe them as well as arrogance illogic and just plain sloppy thinking the purpose of science is to produce a model of the physical world the model must be able to explain all past observations and predict the outcome of future observations one of the aims of experiments is to carry out well defined observations which are objective ideally scientist will except the model which best describes the world and the model which realises on the minimal number of assumptions at the moment models which do not rely on the assumption of some spiritual world existing are equally powerful to ones which assume the assumption of a spiritual world as the non spiritual models has fewer assumptions it should be the currently accepted models the scientific process never assumes that its present models are the correct ones whereas many religions claim to represent the truth the arrogance of many theists is that they claim to represent the truth this cannot be said of scientists steve lang slang sling slink slick slack shack shank thank think thick
soc.religion.christian	re question about virgin mary i think you re talking about the assumption of the blessed virgin mary it says that the immaculate mother of god the ever virgin mary having completed the course of her earthly life was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory this was defined by a papal statement in though it had certainly been believed by some before that like the immaculate conception this is primarily a roman catholic doctrine and like it it has no direct biblical support note that catholics do not believe in sola scriptura that is they do not believe that the bible is the only source of christian knowledge thus the fact that a doctrine has little biblical support is not necessarily significant to them they believe that truth can be passed on through traditions of the church and also that it can be revealed to the church i m not interested in yet another catholic protestant argument but if any catholics can tell us the basis for these beliefs i think it would be appropriate clh in the bible there are a lot of instances where god speaks to people where a person just came to know some piece of information where a person walks off into the desert for days etc with all of god s power he certainly can do whatever he wants when he wants it the bible ends with the book of revelations but does god s reign end there no so who can say for sure that god s messages are either no longer happening or still happening i can now hear the clamor for proof with the cold response i ve gotten from the past from this group it s very hard to get the point across i ll only go over the physical stuff so that skeptics can look at documents stored somewhere i ve cited the uncorrupted bodies of saints before they re still there the apparitions at fatima portugal culminated in a miracle specifically granted to show god s existence that was the spinning descending of the sun it was seen in several countries that event is approved by the pope currently images of mary in japan korea yugoslavia philippines africa are showing tears natural or blood these are still under investigation by the church but realize that investigations take decades to finish and if the message is christ will come in ten days that s a bit too late isn t it other events under investigation are inner locutions coming to know stigmata the person exhibits christ s wounds and they don t heal and doctor s don t know why non believers are welcome to pore through documents i m sure this stuff is not like koresh or oral roberts give me m or god will call me home it s free find out why they re happening as we ourselves are studying why if anybody can figure this out tell us you can be of any religion if you have the resources go to one of the countries i mentioned these are not members only events god and mary invites everybody so in conclusion finally we rc s believe in the modern day manifestations of god and mary we are scared to death sometimes although we re told not to there are more proofs and events and that is why not everything is in the bible although in a lot of the apparitions we are told to read the bible as far as the protestant vs catholics issue is concerned in the end god s churches will unite i m not sure how i have some idea but the point is we shouldn t worry about the versus part just do god s work that s all that matters unity will come btw i m just a plain person i m not the pope s spokesperson but i am rc mark ashley disclaimer my opinions not harris marka gcx ssd csd harris com the lost los angelino
soc.religion.christian	re what was the immaculate conception in article may athos rutgers edu todd nickel laurentian ca writes your roommate is correct the immaculate conception refers to the conception of mary in her mother s womb okay now that we ve defined the immaculate conception doctrine would it be possible for those more knowledgeable in the area to give the biblically or other support for it i ve attempted to come to terms with it previously in an attempt to understand it for learning purposes and haven t been able to grasp the reasoning it was a gift from god i think basically the reasoning was that the tradition in the church held that mary was also without sin as was jesus as the tenets of faith developed particularly with augustine sin was more and more equated with sex and thus mary was assumed to be a virgin for life since she never sinned and since she was the spouse of god etc since we also had this notion of original sin ie that man is born with a predisposition to sin and since mary did not have this predisposition because she did not ever sin she didn t have original sin when science discovered the process of conception the next step was to assume that mary was conceived without original sin the immaculate conception mary at that time appeared to a girl named bernadette at lourdes she refered to herself as the immaculate conception since a nine year old would have no way of knowing about the doctrine the apparition was deemed to be true and it sealed the case for the doctrine rcs hold that all revelation comes from two equally important sources that being sacred scripture and holy tradition in this case mostly tradition joe moore
soc.religion.christian	legal definition of religion it s my understanding that the u s supreme court has never given a legal definition of religion this despite the many cases involving religion that have come before the court can anyone verify or falsify this has any state or other government tried to give a legal definition of religion
soc.religion.christian	re what was the immaculate conception note i am cross posting actually emailing this to bit listserv catholic while main posting goes to soc religion christian quotations omitted this is in response to a question about the immaculate conception i explained it but left justification up to our catholic readers clh there is no direct reference in the holy scripture except for the mention of mary s blessedness full of grace in the annunciation by angel gabriel in luke and in the th month the angel gabriel was sent from god unto a city of galilee named nazareth to a virgin espoused to a man whose name was joseph of the house of david and the virgin s name was mary and the angel came unto her and said hail thou that art highly favoured the lord is with thee blessed art thou among women now now hold that line of thought the lord is with mary blessed art thou among women while you read on in the book first lady of the world a popular history of devotion to mary by peter lappin the immaculate conception matter is really far more complicated than the assumption this arose in ad it is quite possible that the feast of mary s conception under the title the conception of saint anne originally commemorated the physical miracle of a woman beyond the age of child bearing conceiving a daughter just as elizabeth had conceived john the baptist a transfer in emphasis from the physical miracle wrought in anne to the miracle of grace wrought by god in the soul of mary was logical mary is the incorruptible timber out of which was hewn the tabernacle of christ s sinless body she is god s eden in whom there is no tree of knowledge and no serpent that harms her perfect beauty and spotlessness find their exemplar in christ her purity in that of the father at the time of the council of ephesus she was hailed as innocent without blemish immaculate inviolate spotless holy in soul and body who was blessed as a lily from among thorns unlearned in the evil ways of eve at the end of the thirteenth century an irish franciscan john duns scotus god maintained that it was a greater thing for him to preserve his the son mother from all sin than to use his power to clease her from it later now let s go to the discussion of baptism and original sin from pocket catholic cathechism by john a hardon baptism concupiscence remains after baptism concupiscence or the tendency to sin remains in the baptized but since it is left to provide trial it has no power to injure those who do not consent and who by the grace of christ jesus manfully resist canon original gifts of adam and eve before their fall in the light of the foregoing we see that our first parents were originally gifted three times over they had the natural gifts of human beings especially the power to think and to choose freely the had the preternatural gifts of bodily immortality and of integrity or the internal power to control desires they had the supernatural gifts of sanctifying grace the virtues of faith hope and charity and the corresponding title to enter heaven by their disobedience they lost the supernatural and preternatural gifts entirely and were weakened without losing their natural capacity to reason and to choose freely baptism restores the supernatural life lost by adam s sin it does not restore the preternatural gifts but gifts as a title to a glorified restoration of our bodies on the last day going back to immaculate conception i am not sure if this interpretation is in any other books but it may be another contribution to the puzzle given the miracle of st anne bearing a child at a non childbearing age and christ was not yet born and there was no baptism yet on mary s birth but still the angel gabriel s greetings was hail mary full of grace the lord is with you blessed art thou amongst women even mary was confused about this greeting mary could very well have possessed all of the treefold original gifts above given to our first parents adam and eve before their sin hail mary example of praise given by the angel gabriel full of grace natural preternatural supernatural the lord is with you at those times god would definitely want to be with those he has made blessed blessed art thou amongst women that says it all at the conception god made mary full of grace and blessed as the tabernacle for the coming body of christ and so immaculate conception of mary is true and mary still has maintained her immaculate heart marida p s i do hope that others will continue more light and facts on this matter thanks
soc.religion.christian	re question about virgin mary in article athos rutgers edu revdak netcom com d andrew kille writes just an observation although the bodily assumption has no basis in the bible carl jung declared it to be one of the most important pronouncements of the church in recent years in that it implied the inclusion of the feminine into the godhead what did jung mean by a godhead
soc.religion.christian	re if there were no hell in article may athos rutgers edu shellgate llo uu psi com larry l overacker writes here s a question that some friends and i were debating last night q if you knew beyond all doubt that hell did not exist and that unbelievers simply remained dead would you remain a christian my contention is that if you answer this question with no i would not then remain a christian then you really are not one now following jesus christ has everything to do with sharing in his work and spreading the news that the kingdom of heaven is already among us fear based religion is not a faith relationship with the one who made us all so does that mean that anyone who is a christian to avoid hell isn t really a christian at all it sounds like it to me mit liebe in christus martyn r mellodew u mrm compsci liverpool ac uk martyn r mellodew e mail u mrm compsci liverpool ac uk department of applied mathematics arpa internet u mrm csc liv ac uk and theoretical physics janet u mrm uk ac liv csc the university of liverpool p o box liverpool england l bx dubito ergo deus est
soc.religion.christian	re if there were no hell in may athos rutgers edu shellgate llo uu psi com writes here s a question that some friends and i were debating last night q if you knew beyond all doubt that hell did not exist and that unbelievers simply remained dead would you remain a christian reasoning pertinent to believing xians deleted for space it strikes me for no apparent reason that this is reversible i e if i had proof that there existed a hell in which i would be eternally punished for not believing in life would that make me a xian pardon my language bloody hell no of course being merely a reversal of your thinking this doesn t add anything new to the debate but several friends disagreed arguing the fear of hell was necessary to motivate people to christianity to me that fatally undercuts the message that god is love a point very well taken imnsho successful terrorism is called revolution and is admired by history unsuccessful terrorism is just lowly cowardly terrorism phil trodwell on alt atheism
soc.religion.christian	re the bible available in every language was re satanic tounges in article may athos rutgers edu koberg spot colorado edu allen koberg writes about tongues the concept of tongues as used at pentecost seems an outdated concept now with the bible available in nearly every language and missionaries who are out there in all languages why does the church need tongues i guess there are at least some people who are not able to support this claim there are still a lot of languages without the bible or a part of the bible there are still many languages which we are not able to write simply because the written version of the language has not yet been defined i guess this is one of the main goals for wycliffe bible translators to define rules and a grammar for writing the rest of the languages of this world i do not see that any of them will have any reason to become unemployed during the foreseeable future provided they get their neccessary support and still they are one of the largest missionary organizations of the world bjorn s mail e mail bjorn b larsen bjorn b larsen delab sintef no sintef delab n trondheim tel norway fax
soc.religion.christian	re deuterocanonicals esp sirach ddavis cass ma bull com dave davis writes ii the deuterocanonicals are not in the canon because they are not quoted by the nt authors that is not quite accurate otherwise we would have the book of enoch in the canon as dave noted one can say that the apocrypha are not quoted by christ dave also writes iii the deuterocanonicals are not in the canon because they teach doctrines contrary to the uncontroverted parts of the canon then i answer these is a logically invalid a priori besides we are talking about ot texts which in many parts are superceded by the nt in the xtian view would not this same principle exclude ecclesiastes this principle cannot be consistently applied i have to reject your argument here the spirit speaks with one voice and he does not contradict himself the ultimate test of canonicity is whether the words are inspired by the spirit i e god breathed it is a test which is more guided by faith than by reason or logic the early church decided that the apocrypha did not meet this test even though some books such as the wisdom of ben sirach have their uses for example the lutheran hymn now thank we all our god quotes a passage from this book the deutero canonical books were added much later in the church s history they do not have the same spiritual quality as the rest of scripture i do not believe the church that added these books was guided by the spirit in so doing and that is where this sort of discussion ultimately ends david h wagner a confessional lutheran now thank we all our god with heart and hands and voices who wondrous things hath done in whom his world rejoices who from our mother s arms hath blessed us on our way with countless gifts of love and still is our today nun danket alle gott v martin rinckart compare ben sirach
soc.religion.christian	re question about virgin mary d andrew kille writes just an observation although the bodily assumption has no basis in the bible carl jung declared it to be one of the most important pronouncements of the church in recent years in that it implied the inclusion of the feminine into the godhead which means he has absolutely no idea about what the assumption is however greatly we extoll mary it is quite obvious that she is in no way god or even part of god or equal to god the assumption of our blessed mother meant that because of her close identification with the redemptive work of christ she was assumed note that she did not ascend body and soul into heaven and is thus one of the few along with elijah enoch moses maybe who are already perfected in heaven obviously the virgin mary is far superior in glorification to any of the previously mentioned personages jung should stick to psychology rather than getting into theology andy byler
soc.religion.christian	re christianity and repeated lives in article may athos rutgers edu jek cu nih gov writes gerry palo writes there is nothing in christianity that precludes the idea of repeated lives on earth the apostle paul romans points out that god chose jacob rather than esau to be the ancestor of the covenant people and ultimately of the messiah and that he made this choice while the two boys were still in their mother s womb and therefore could not possibly have done anything good or evil to deserve their appointed destinies if we admit the possibility that they had lived previous lives and that in accordance with the asiatic idea of karma their present lives are a reward or punishment for past behaviour this makes nonsense of paul s whole point the existence of repeated earth lives and destiny karma does not mean that everything that happens is predetermined by past deeds there is an oriental view of it that tends in that direction but i did not subscribe to that view god may choose one individual over another as the fit instrument for his plans but that does not preclude that the development of that individual into what he is in this earthly life is not the result of a longer course of development i do not and rudolf steiner did not subscribe to the oriental view of an inexorable mechanistic karma determining everything that befalls one this is a kind of shriveled caricature of a much greater law in the context of which the deed of christ on golgotha and the ultimate salvation and freedom of the human being as a working of christ can be seen as the master theme and indeed a new impulse that was completely free of karma christ incarnated only once in the flesh and in that he had no debt of karma or sin the oriental concepts of reincarnation and karma which are even more trivialized and mechanized in some new age teachings incorrectly assume jesus christ to have been the reincarnation of a master avatar etc their teaching of reincarnation and karma also has no concept the continuing individuality from one life to the next e g buddhism more important they have no concept of the resurrection of the body the ultimate continuity of the whole human being to ultimate resurrection and judgement on the last day there is another biblical passage that also has a bearing it is the tenth chapter of john devoted almost entirely to the man born blind clearly here jesus tells the disciples that it was not his past karma or that of his parents that led to his blindness but rather that a new impulse is to be revealed through him but note that he does not refute the disciples question in fact they ask it as a matter of course the question being stated as if it were self evident that only one of two possibilities existed it was either the sins of the man himself obviously not in this incarnation or the sins of his parents the fact that they even asked about the first possibility at all indicates an awareness of the idea on their part and the form of christ s answer indicates that he did not disagree with it there is also matthew where jesus says straight out about john the baptist if you care to accept it he himself is elias who was to come this also emphasizes that the gospels do not have a positive teaching either way about reincarnation or in fact about what happens to the human being at all between death and the last day even jesus did not push this teaching on people who were not ready to embrace it if you care to accept it so i took care to point out not that the bible teaches reincarnation but that it does not deny it either and that much in both scripture and fundamental christian doctrine becomes understandable if reincarnation is understood in the right way i pointedly used repeated earth lives to distinguish a little from the oriental doctrines usually associated with the word reincarnation the phrase is rudolf steiner s wiederholte erdenleben he noted too that the idea needed to arise as a new insight in the west completely free from eastern tradition it did in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries the most important expression of it being lessing s the education of the human race to return to your original point paul s statement about jacob and esau does not contradict the idea of repeated earth lives and karma and both of these principles receive their fulfillment in the incarnation death and resurrection ascension and return of jesus christ in my view regards gerry palo compuserve com
soc.religion.christian	re the truth of the bible sodium asc slb com asc slb com michael a montgomery writes i believe that the god has preserved the bible perfectly in that it perfectly conveys all of the truth that he intended this he has done oh yea which version of the bible is the perfectly preserved one and why are there so many translations that are not perfectly preserved is god trying to confuse us minor changes in wording or even accidental omission of passages in some manuscripts does not change the truth being conveyed nor would it lead a serious student into doctrinal error note also that god provided many but that is exactly what happend there are so many branches of denominations of christianity and deviations of doctrine portruding from varying translations of biblical texts by serious students that are much too numerous to begin to count if there is a perfect bible then there would be no possible misinterpretation and there would be no need for anyone here to be debating it on the other hand maybe the bible is perfect but no one on this planet is perfect enough to read it correctly but then there would be no point in god giving us something we cannot use correctly in short if you attack the credibility and reliability of the bible you are on weak ground furthermore the only reason that i can see for wanting to do so is to remove the bible as the final authority and instead put that responsibility on men to sift the bible to strain out the nuggets of truth that it contains in other words what they want to believe and ignore the rest the bible is truth it does not just contain truth imho if you trust your salvation on the reliability of a single book you are on weak ground remember in the beginning was the word and the word was with god and the word was god this word existed before the bible was written note word god this word that john is trying to describe cannot be fully described in any written language all languages being imperfect realization comes only from contemplation of the word and is outside the boundaries of language i use the bible as a guide a stepping stone but in no way is it my final authority god alone is the final authority daniel cossack danc procom com compuserve com senior software engineer dupont drive irvine ca procom technology inc
soc.religion.christian	re homosexuality issues in christianity on may gmt shellgate llo uu psi com larry l overacker said in article apr geneva rutgers edu fsspr acad alaska edu hardcore alaskan writes i hope that anyone who remembers seeing rev troy perry s performance at the march on washington will see for themselves just how inconceivable it is to mix christianity with homosexuality whether or not christianity and homosexuality are compatible is clearly debatable since it is being debated in my opnion it is genuinely destuctive to the cause of christianity to use this sort of ad hominem argument to oppose one s adversaries it only serves to further drive people away from christianity because it projects and confirms the frequently held opinion that christians are unable to think critically and intelligently i agree entirely speaking as an atheist heterosexual for what it s worth this is one of the least attractive parts of some varieties of christianity although i m sure it s possible to argue theologically that we shouldn t make analogies between discrimination on the basis of sex and race and discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation morally the case looks unanswerable for those outside religion the three forms are analogous we shouldn t discriminate on the basis of sex race or sexual orientation i found the moderator s faqs on the subject instructive and recommend everyone to read them there seem to be three different levels of acceptance regard homosexual orientation as a sin or evil whatever regard homosexual behaviour as a sin but accept orientation though presumably orientation is unfortunate and dislike people who indulge as but love the sinner accept homosexuality altogether my experience is that is the most common attitude i imagine and are limited to a few fundamentalist sects i suppose i can go along with except that i have this feeling that a year old living in a community with this attitude on discovering that they were more attracted to members of the same sex would not feel the love of the community but would rather feel the pressure not to exhibit their feelings i m not saying that the community in particular the parents would not love the child but i suspect the child would not feel loved bruce cmsr university of liverpool
soc.religion.christian	re satanic tounges in article may geneva rutgers edu marka hcx ssd csd harris com mark ashley writes i have a simple test i take several people who can speak only one language e g chinese russian german english then i let the gifted one start speaking in toungues the audience should understand the gifted one clearly in their native language however the gifted one can only hear himself speaking in his own language that would be neat but nowhere in the bible does it say that one who has the gift of tounges can do this if the gift of tounges were the ability to be understood by everyone no matter what languages they know there would be no need for the gift of interpretation and i corinthians would not have had to have been written perhaps i would believe the gifted ones more if they were glorifying god rather than themselves then perhaps we d witness a real miracle that s a pretty harsh assumption to make about a several million christians world wide sure there are some who want glory for themselves who speak in tounges just as there are among those who do not have this gift there were people like this in the corinthian church also that does not mean that there is no true gift or that all who speak in tounges do it for their own glory in the sight of men i would venture to say that a large percentage of those who do speak in tounges do so more often in private prayer than in public link hudson there were apparently those in the early church who claimed that at pentecost the miracle was that the crowd were all given the ability to understand the apostles speaking in greek clh
soc.religion.christian	re why do people become atheists undoubtedly people adopt atheism for many reasons but i suspect that a biggie is that the god they ve believed in is in j b phillips s words too small if a person s understanding of god is not allowed to grow and develop it will eventually become inadequate the grey haired gentleman on a throne who was a comforting image in childhood becomes a joke a therapist friend of mine sometimes suggests to her clients that they fire god what she means by that is letting go of an inadequate understanding of god to make room for a fuller one but she follows up by encouraging them to hire a new one my guess is that a lot of folks go through the firing process but are not adequately supported in the subsequent re hire billh
soc.religion.christian	daily verse when he came near the place where the road goes down the mount of olives the whole crowd of disciples began joyfully to praise god in loud voices for all the miracles they had seen luke
soc.religion.christian	re athiests and hell in article may geneva rutgers edu sun gerry palo uunet uu net gerry palo writes between adam and eve and golgotha the whole process of the fall of man occurred this involved a gradual dimming of consciousness of the spiritual world this was precisely my point from a theological bent those who lived immediately after the flood such as noah ham his son cush and his son nimrod had a much stronger appreciation of divine wrath they also had a stronger understanding of the true god in fact this immediacy was a cause of hardship for some so much so that atlas who is seen with heavens resting on his shoulders but this is not merely the physical heavens that he is lifting it is to put god and the strict spirituality of his law at a distance and thus he became the elevator of the heavens this god made men able to feel as if heaven were afar off and as if either the god of heaven could not see through the dark cloud or did not regard with displeasure the breakers of his laws it is interesting to see that it was that was titled emancipator or deliverer or phoroneus it was nimrod who invaded the patriarchal system and abridged the liberties of mankind yet was worship for having given many benefits he was a deliverer all right but not as we think of christ as a deliverer one delivered from a conscious feeling of god s wrath the other actually performed a delivery from gods wrath and it is up to us to accept it as true the question of what happens to human beings who died before christ is an ever present one with christians i am not ready to consign adam or abraham or even cain to eternal damnation i don t see the problem from the time of adam those who looked forward to the coming anointed one and put their faith in the fact that it was god who was to do the provision were accounted as righteous but up to the crucifixion their sins were only covered not taken away therefore the dispensation of the church views the accountability of sin the same but see it as a completed action rom s makes it clear that it has always been salvation via faith and nothing else it is possible to experience eternity in a passing moment the relationship of eternity to duration is not simply one of indefinitely extended conditions of greenwich mean time i understand what you re trying to convey but i don t think i d lay hold of it because the scriptures do equate the eternality of the second death with the eternality of say the church ruling with christ jn tells us what eternal life is exactly as you are correct that it is much more than non cessation of consciousness it was also a standard belief among many peoples that even the righteous were lost it depends upon your def of lost the elect were lost only in time as outside of time they had been chosen from the foundation of the world existentially we were all born lost but the righteous were in christ and therefore never assuredly lost it would be interesting to share in the results of your studies of ancient people s ideas of life after death maybe this summer i could find time to put together a paper on it i simply have to buy more books for myself and these older books are very expensive either that or countless trips to the oriental museum mankind fell into mist and darkness and at the turning point of time a new light entered into the world the light still grows and we are developing the eyes with which to see by it much new revelation and growth in under standing lies before us our new vision and understanding is still very feeble but it contains something new that will grow in time to embrace that which is old and much more as well couldn t agree with you more our understanding of say eschatology is clearly clearer than that of say isaiah but that is not what i was referring to at this point i should acknowledge openly my debt to the work of rudolf steiner founder of anthroposophy for many insights that have led me to my views on this subject the way you refer to it as doctrine puts a modern intellectual coloring on it i think it was much less abstract and much more real and spiritually concrete a teaching that struck much closer to home than our doctrines or teachings today can be received no i understand it as you have said this was my point i am not so ready to attribute widespread notions in antiquity to simple dispersion from an original source even if they were passed on the question is to what extent did they reflect real perception and experience ah this is it this is the big question however i would say again i think that the best lie is one that has an appreciable amount of truth to it look at satan s twist of god s word when he coerced eve that is a very interesting study the similarity in the midst of great variety of expression of the different people s ideas of the time immediately after death testifies to the presence of an underlying reality yes that is my point but it is a two edged sword for some do not want the underlying reality to be revealed they were not known as mystery religions for no reason there was the public side of them and there was the private side that was so protected that the initiates to an oath of death if they revealed that private side that is why it is so hard to bring their teachings to light the mystery of iniquity that we find in the bible correlates to this i think the primary object of the mysteries was to introduce privately little by little under the seal of secrecy and sanction of oath what it would not have been safe to openly profess was the true religion case in point today might be the masons just a note that they too worshipped osiris in egypt who can be traced to nimrod the husband son on the other hand there is one notion firmly embedded in christianity that originated most definitely in a pagan source the idea that the human being consists essentially of soul only and that the soul is created at birth was consciously adopted from aristotle whose ideas dominated christian thought for fifteen hundred years and still does today no i disagree with you here gerry i know what you re alluding to in that the church primarily the rcc did endorse aristotelian philosophy into their worldview but i would disagree with you that it originated in greece if you are a student of history you will come to see that much of what greece came to expound to the world as their original was just an adulteration of that which they had taken from conquered countries the soul is clearly mentioned and discussed at length in the egyptian religions as was the unity of god and also the trinity of god see if you can find wilkinson s egyptians he really does a number on what the greeks did to what they pilfered from the egyptians he was at once the father of modern thought and at the same time lived during that darkened time when the perception of our eternal spiritual being had grown dim i m not knocking aristotle or plato or any other greek thinker its just that there is nothing new under the sun indeed i should also clarify that i do not deny that eternal irrevocable damnation is a real possibility but the narrow range in which we conceive of the decisive moment i e after the end of a single earthly life is not in my mind sufficient to embrace the reality and i think that is why the early creeds were couched in terms that did not try to spell it out each age has its own focus of theology the early church struggled with the trinitarian formulation the reformation dealt with authority today eschatology has had much study the early creeds do not spell these things out in detail because they weren t the topic of concern there was insufficient wisdom accumulated they didn t have the exegetical tools that we have today also each age seems to have an air of revelation to it one age has a well tended and cultivated garden in which a particular doctrine is given growth it would be natural for the end of times to have the garden appropriate for the growth of eschatology wouldn t it tangents never ending tangents rex
soc.religion.christian	re monophysites and mike walker hello src readers again the misconception that copts among other oriental orthodox churches believe in monophysitism pops up again we had a discussion about it a while ago in article may geneva rutgers edu db n andrew cmu edu d andrew byler writes the proper term for what mike expresses is monophysitism this was a heresy that was condemned in the council of chalcedon in ad it grew up in reaction to nestorianism which held that the son and jesus are two different people who happened to be united in the same body temporarily monophysitism is held by the copts of egypt and ethipoia and by the jacobites of syria and the armenian orthodox then ofm comments these issues get mighty subtle when you see people saying different things it s often hard to tell whether they really mean seriously different things or whether they are using different terminology i don t think there s any question that there is a problem with nestorius and i would agree that the saying christ had a human form without a real human nature or will is heretical but i d like to be a bit wary about the copts armenians etc recent discussions suggest that their monophysite position may not be as far from orthodoxy as many had thought with my appreciation to the moderator i believe that further elaboration is needed this is an excerpt from an article featured in the first issue of the copt net newsletter under the authority of the eastern roman empire of constantinople as opposed to the western empire of rome the patriarchs and popes of alexandria played leading roles in christian theology they were invited everywhere to speak about the christian faith st cyril pope of alexandria was the head of the ecumenical council which was held in ephesus in the year a d it was said that the bishops of the church of alexandria did nothing but spend all their time in meetings this leading role however did not fare well when politics started to intermingle with church affairs it all started when the emperor marcianus interfered with matters of faith in the church the response of st dioscorus the pope of alexandria who was later exiled to this interference was clear you have nothing to do with the church these political motives became even more apparent in chalcedon in when the coptic church was unfairly accused of following the teachings of eutyches who believed in monophysitism this doctrine maintains that the lord jesus christ has only one nature the divine not two natures the human as well as the divine the coptic church has never believed in monophysitism the way it was portrayed in the council of chalcedon in that council monophysitism meant believing in one nature copts believe that the lord is perfect in his divinity and he is perfect in his humanity but his divinity and his humanity were united in one nature called the nature of the incarnate word which was reiterated by st cyril of alexandria copts thus believe in two natures human and divine that are united in one without mingling without confusion and without alteration from the declaration of faith at the end of the coptic divine liturgy these two natures did not separate for a moment or the twinkling of an eye also from the declaration of faith at the end of the coptic divine liturgy the coptic church was misunderstood in the th century at the council of chalcedon perhaps the council understood the church correctly but they wanted to exile the church to isolate it and to abolish the egyptian independent pope despite all of this the coptic church has remained very strict and steadfast in its faith whether it was a conspiracy from the western churches to exile the coptic church as a punishment for its refusal to be politically influenced or whether pope dioscurus didn t quite go the extra mile to make the point that copts are not monophysite the coptic church has always felt a mandate to reconcile semantic differences between all christian churches this is aptly expressed by the current th successor of st mark pope shenouda iii to the coptic church faith is more important than anything and others must know that semantics and terminology are of little importance to us throughout this century the coptic church has played an important role in the ecumenical movement the coptic church is one of the founders of the world council of churches it has remained a member of that council since a d the coptic church is a member of the all african council of churches aacc and the middle east council of churches mecc the church plays an important role in the christian movement by conducting dialogues aiming at resolving the theological differences with the catholic greek orthodox presbyterian and evangelical churches as a final note the oriental orthodox and eastren orthodox did sign a common statement of christology in which the heresey of monophysitism was condemned so the coptic orthodox church does not believe in monophysitism peace nabil nabil ayoub engine research center dept of mechanical engineering university of wisconsin madison email ayoub erctitan me wisc edu as i mentioned in a brief apology the comment quoted above from me is confused i appear to say that nestorius was monophysite as andrew byler correctly stated it the nestorians and monophysites were actually opposite parties the point i was making which nabil explains in some detail is that some groups that have been considered heretical probably aren t chalcedon was a compromise between two groups the alexandrians and antiochenes it adopted language that was intended to be acceptable to moderates in both camps while ruling out the extremes i agree that there were extremes that were heretical however in the course of the complex politics of the time it appears that some people got rejected who didn t intend heresy but simply used language that was not understood or even was mispresented and some seem not to have jointed in the compromise for reasons other than doctrine there are groups descended from both of the supposedly heretical camps this posting discussed the descendants of the alexandrians there are also a remaining nestorians like some of the current so called monophysites there is reason to believe that the current so called nestorians are not heretical either they sheltered nestorius from what they saw as unfair treatment but claim they did not adopt his heresies and in fact seem to follow more moderate representatives of the antiochene tradition clh
soc.religion.christian	re question about virgin mary ddavis cass ma bull com dave davis writes much deletion he is trying to explain the immaculate conception and the assumption of mary original sin is the only reason fallen humanity dies adam and eve would not have died had they not fallen if this is true than why in the genesis story is god concerned that adam and eve might also eat from the tree of life and live forever and be like gods eating of the tree of life would not take away the effects of eating of the tree of knowledge is there any reason to assume that they had already eaten of the tree of life and so had already attained to eternal life if so what basis is there for saying that this was taken away from them to me the wages of sin are a spiritual death not necessarily a physical death i can attest to the truth of this interpretation from my own experience i suspect that many others could attest to this as well peace will william taber will taber dg com any opinions expressed data general corp will futon webo dg com are mine alone and may westboro mass change without notice when all your dreams are laid to rest you can get what s second best but it s hard to get enough david wilcox
soc.religion.christian	public private revelation formerly re question about virgin mary mark ashley s account of private revelation does not as some might think contradict my posting in which i said that the catholic church believes that public revelation on which catholic doctrine is based ended with the death of st john the last apostle in that posting i made sure i used the word public public revelation contains god s truth intended for everyone to believe the revelation contained in the bible is a significant subset of public revelation private revelation is revelation that god gives to an individual he may speak directly to the individual he may send an angel or he may send the virgin mary or some lesser saint the only person who is required to believe a private revelation is the person to whom it is revealed devotional practices may be based on reported private revelations but doctrines can not when an alleged private revelation attracts sufficient attention the church may investigate it if the investigation indicates a likelihood that the alleged private revelation is in fact from god it will be approved that means that it can be preached in the church however it is still true that no one is required to believe that it came from god a catholic is free to deny the authenticity of even the most well attested and strongly approved private revelations such as those at fatima and lourdes i suspect that few if any catholics do reject fatima and lourdes but if any do their rejection of them does not mean they are not orthodox catholics in good standing i do not have at hand a list of the criteria the church uses in evaluating an alleged private revelation it s not something i need every day but i know that one of the primary requirements is that nothing in the alleged private revelation can contradict anything known through public revelation marty helgesen bitnet mnhcc cunyvm internet mnhcc cunyvm cuny edu what if there were no such thing as a hypothetical situation
soc.religion.christian	re question from an agnostic on may gmt damon math okstate edu hastings damon tod said a christian friend of mine once reasoned that if we were never created then we could not exist therefore we were created and therefore there exists a creator is this statement considered to be a valid proof by many christians and followers of other religions i suppose rest deleted some variant is quite popular this and other arguments are discussed in john leslie mackie s the miracle of theism arguments for and against the existence of god although mackie ultimately sides with against his arguments are i think quite fair to both sides brief discussions can be found in the alt atheism faqs bruce cmsr university of liverpool
soc.religion.christian	re satanic tounges pwhite empros com peter white relates a story about a person who gives a message in tongues which consists entirely of the words pu ka he was asked to refrain from doing that well brother puka controlled himself for a while but a few weeks later the church had invited a missionary in to speak at the time of the meeting where tongues and interpretation were appropriate who should arise to speak but brother puka and off he went as before all the words were puka the pastor was about to apologize for this embarrassment when the missionary arose to speak saying that he was sorry that he did not have the interpretation but that he could give the translation in a tribe where he had worked they only had one word in the language puka meaning was derived from the inflection and other voice qualities brother puka had given a perfectly inflected and reasonable message nice story but it sets off my urban legend or is it charismatic legend alarms can the linguists on the net identify the language from the description or can they even attest that such a language exists it seems to be odd enough at least by the standards of european languages that if it exists it should be reasonably well known to linguists as an extreme case of something or other or have i just overreacted to your basic shaggy dog story will william taber will taber dg com any opinions expressed data general corp will futon webo dg com are mine alone and may westboro mass change without notice when all your dreams are laid to rest you can get what s second best but it s hard to get enough david wilcox
soc.religion.christian	re question about virgin mary as the moderator noted i think you mean the assumption catholics believe that the blessed virgin mary went to heaven body and soul at the end of her life this is unusual because the normal course of events is for your body to decay in the grave and stay that way until the resurrection of the dead well it wasn t that way for enoch and elijah both of whom were translated directly into heaven it s beyond my grasp why some object that mary who was far greater than either enoch or elijah should not benefit from the same privelege they recieved she was after all mother of god full of grace and immaculate historically belief in the assumption can be found in the writings of st gregory of tours late th century and in st germain of constantinople and st john of damascus and in st andrew of crete among others and it should be noted that the monophysite chruches of egypt and syria also hold to this belief as part of divine revelation even though they broke away from the unity of the chruch in ad by rejecting the council of chalcedon it might be argued by some protestants that the catholics and orthodox made this belief up but the monophysites put a big hole in that notion as they also hold the belief and they split from the chruch before the belief was first annunciated in writing as far as is known much has been lost from the time of the fathers andy byler
soc.religion.christian	re seeking christian opinion all sorts subject re seeking christian opinion all sorts from rob steele rsteele adam ll mit edu date may gmt do you mean that your fellow christians tend to find you wacky maybe they re right you might be interested in franky schaeffer s books about what philistines american christians are addicted to mediocrity and more recently sham pearls for real swine one day a few years ago franky schaeffer walked into a greek orthodox church he is now an orthodox christian so is his mother and if his father fransis schaeffer had not passed away he too would have come into the church franky like many americans who have recently found the orthodox church described the experience as finally coming home after a long jouney through a desert you should also read the book becoming orthodox by peter gillquist it describes the long journey of some weary evangelical protestants to the orthodox church come taste and see how good the lord is timothy richardson rich student tc umn edu
soc.religion.christian	the nicene creed was re major views of the trinity michael bushnell writes the so called creed of athanasius however has always been a western creed and has always had the filioque the orthodox have said that they accept all that it says with the exception of the filioque but it is not in use which is exactly what i pointed out though i was wrong about your use of the creed the catholic encylcopedia in which i read about it said the orthodox do use the creed minus the filioque apparently that has changed the athanasian creed has always had the filioque the nicene constantinopolitan did not of course the orthodox did not delete the filioque from the nicene creed it wasn t there to begin with but they certainly did from the athanasian creed which did have it from the beginning i might point out that the whole problem started over the difference in ways of explaining the generation of the blessed trinity the east emphasizing the idea of the holy spirit proceeding from the father through the son and the west using proceeding from the father and the son in fact some such as tertullian used both formulations see below following therefore the form of these examples i profess that i do call god and his word the father and and his son two for the root and the stem are two things but conjoined the fountain and the river are two kinds but indivisible the sun and the ray are two forms but coherent ones anything which proceeds from another must necessarily be a second to that from which it proceeds but it is not on that account separated from it where there is second however there are two and where ther is third there are three the spirit then is third from god and the son just as the third from the root is the fruit of the stem and third from the fountain is the stream from the river and thrid from the sun is the apex of the ray tertullian against praxeas about ad and i believe that the spirit proceeds not otherwise than from the father through the son tertullian against praxeas about ad and as st thomas showed in his summa theologica part question articles and there is no contradiction between the two methods of generation and in fact the two methods of reckoning the procession emphasize what st augustine among others taught that the holy spirit proceeds from the father and the son but he proceeds from the father in a more preeminent way for whatever the son has he has from the father certainly he has it from the father that the holy spirit proceeds from him for the father alone is not from another for which reason he alone is called unbegotten not indeed in the scriptures but in the practice of theologians and of those who employ such terms as they are able in a matter so great the son however is born of the father and the holy spirit proceeds principally from the father and since the father gives to the son all that he has without any interval of time the holy spirit proceeds jointly from both father and son he would be called son of the father and of the son if which is abhorent to everyone of sound mind they had both begotten him the spirit was not begotten by each however but proceeds from each and both st augustine of hippo the trinity to ad so in a sense all of the formulations are correct to the west at least because the holy spirit proceeds from both father and son but in proceeding from the son the orgin of that procession is the procession from the father so the holy spirit is proceeding from the father through the son but as all that the son has is from the father the holy spirit can be said to proceed from the father without any mention of the son being necessary in any case i am happy to know that i follow in the beliefs of pope st leo i st fulgence of ruspe st cyril of alexandria pope st damsus i st augustine of hippo st epiphanius of salamis st ambrose of milan st hilary of poitiers tertullian and others among the fathers who all have very quotable quotes supporting the catholic position which i enunciated above as for the issue of the adoption of another creed being forbidden i will point out that the holy fathers of ephesus and chalcedon both spoke of the creed of nicea in their statement forbidding anyone to produce write or compose a confession of faith other than the one defined by the fathers of nicea that creed is a different creed than that of constantinople which is commonly called the nicene creed not of course in that they were condemning the adoption of the constantinopolitan creed which is but an enlargement upon the creed of nicea but that they were condemning the impious opinions of nestorious who had adopted a radically different creed from the one used by the church which among other things denied the procession of the holy spirit form the son thus the additions of the constantinopolitan creed were not thought to be in violation of this and as the council chalcedon also affirmed the doctrine of the procession of the holy spirit from the son which nestorius denied they could hardly have been against explaining in a fuller way the creed for they themselves approved of previous additions to it and if the further explanations of the creed made in constantinople were not denigrating of the work done by the holy fathers of nicea or in any way heretical it follows that the council of toledo was fully able to add what was not disputed by the faithful to the creed so as to combat the impieties of the arians in spain because the filioque was not in dispute in the church until many years later under photius and others and that the filioque was not disputed i provide more quotes below since the holy spirit when he is in us effects our being conformed to god and he actually proceeds from the father and son it is abundantly clear that he is of the divine essence in it in essence and proceeding from it st cyril of alexandria the treasury of the holy and consubstantial trinity thesis ad the holy spirit is not of the father only or of the son only but he is the spirit of the father and the son for it is written if anyone loves the world the spirit of the father is not in him and again it is written if anyone however does not have the spirit of christ he is none of his when the father and the son are named in this way the holy spirit is understood of whom the son himself says in the gospel that the holy spirit proceeds from the father and that he shall receive of mine and shall announce it to you pope st damasus i the decree of damasus ad the only begotten holy spirit has neither the name of the son nor the appelation of father but is called holy spirit and is not foreign to the father for the only begotten himself calls him the spirit of the father and says of him the he proceeds from the father and will receive of mine so that he is reckoned as not being foreign to the son but is of their same substance of the same godhead he is spirit divine of god and he is god for he is spirit of god spirit of the father and spirit of the son not by some kind of synthesis like soul and body in us but in the midst of father and son of the father and of the son a third by appelation the father always existed and the son always existed and the spirit breathes from the father and the son and neither is the son created nor is the spirit created st epiphanius of salamis which is on cyprus the man well anchored and ad concerning the holy spirit i ought not to remain silent nor yet is it necessary to speak still on account of those who do not know him it is not possible for me to be silent however it is necessary to speak of him who must be acknowledged who is from the father and the son his sources st hilary of poitiers the trintiy to ad thus as i have pointed out before gaul spain italy africa egypt palastine and the lands of the greeks all of christnedom at that time all have fathers who can be cited to show that they confess the doctrine expressed by the filioque i suggest to those of the orthodox church that they come up with some of the fathers besides st john of damascus who all will admit denied the filioque to support their views it is not enough to bring up the proceeds from the father line of the creed or the gospel of john for that says what we believe also but it does not say the holy spirit does not proceed from the son only that he does proceed from the father andy byler
soc.religion.christian	re the doctrine of original sin in article may geneva rutgers edu db n andrew cmu edu d andrew byler writes beyt bcg thor cf ac uk writes nothing unclean shall enter heaven rev therefore babies are born in such a state that should they die they are cuf off from god and put in hell oh that must explain matthew in that hour came the disciples unto jesus saying who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven and he called to him a little child and set him in the midst of them and said verily i say unto you except ye turn and become as little children ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven even so it is not the will of your father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish nice thing about the bible you don t have to invent a bunch of convoluted rationalizations to understand it unlike your arguments for original sin face it original sin was thought up long after the bible had been written and has no basis from the scriptures anthony
soc.religion.christian	re serbian genocide work of god in article apr geneva rutgers edu revdak netcom com d andrew kille writes james sledd jsledd ssdc sas upenn edu wrote are the serbs doing the work of god hmm are you suggesting that god supports genocide perhaps the germans were punishing jews on god s behalf any god who works that way is indescribably evil and unworthy of my worship or faith you might want to re think your attitude about the holocaust after reading deuteronomy chapter tom price tp x cs cmu edu free will what free will plutoniumsurveillanceterroristciaassassinationirancontrawirefraudcryptology
soc.religion.christian	re why do people become atheists let me tell you my story i grew up catholic up until i was it wasn t an issue for me then i met a born again christian a very sweet person not proseletyzing sp not imposing i tried to get into being as christian as i could as i felt i should but the more i tried the more depressed i got i felt guilty for some of my own personal honest feelings i tried so hard to reconcile this conflict until i was then i taught myself to think rationally i read a lot of books pro and con religion in general and specifically catholicism i came to a crisis point then it finally clicked and now i am a staunch atheist this is a very loose explanation but it s the gist of it now at i feel better about myself better self esteem a generally stronger person i have well defined goals i have a strong and stable sense of morals and values i am not a neo nazi or a corrupt politicain etc i believe in human rights and live and let live among other things i am very anti violent and anti hatred this is to debunk the myth that atheists are depraved religion has no place in my system tough bertrand russell said that we cannot know god doesn t exist we can t prove it so in that sense we can only truly be agnostic but for all practical purposes there is no god thanqs ken engel kene acs bu edu
soc.religion.christian	christians in the martial arts greetings and salutations i would like to get in touch with people who a consider themselves christians you define it and b are in the martial arts some topics for discussion your particular martial art your view of the relationship between christianity and your art your view of the relationship between your christianity and your art why should a christian participate in ma why shouldn t a christian participate in ma biblical views of ma pro or con for example i heard from one fellow i tried the karate for christ thing and it wasn t for me why or why not as an aside i am involved in no official way with an organization called the christian black belt association and i would also like to distribute info regarding upcoming events to those who are interested no you won t be put on any mailing list nor will your name be sold however if you are intested in an email list let me know i am interested in email replies only as this is cross posted to groups i don t normally read if anyone wants a summary or of course on going discussion then let me know shalom robert switzer ka czu cbnewsh att com bell labs laurel ave b middletown nj usa amateur radio operator ka czu robert switzer
soc.religion.christian	re good jewish arguments kwfinken pooh harpo uccs edu kevin w finkenbinder wrote scott born phys virginia edu wrote intro deleted jesus wasn t really descended from david as the messiah was supposed to have been joseph was but christians say that joseph wasn t related to jesus truthfully if you look at the geneology of christ in luke and the one in matthew you will notice that they trace different lines back to david i have been told that one traces mary s line back to david and the other traces joseph s line back to david both of them go beyond david in history acording to some of my jewish friends jewishness is passed to a child by the mother and the legal rights of jewishness are passed through the father if it is true that one of these geneologies is mary s then christ s bloodline is from david through his mother this also means that christ had all of the legal rights of a decendant of david as according to at least roman law and possibly mosaic law as well but i am not sure joseph was christ s legal father the argument for luke s genealogy being that of mary is very weak according to luke and when he began his ministry jesus himself was about thirty years of age being supposedly the son of joseph the son of eli aside from the fact that mary is not mentioned there are two possible interpretations either joseph was her father or he was her brother clearly this is not acceptable a third would be that joseph the son of eli was her father and just happened to have the name as the man to whom she was betrothed but that would seem to be grasping at straws the most straightforward interpretation is that luke had no intention of tracing mary s genealogy in which case he would have named her but that he traces her husband s from david s son nathan the matthew descendant list most definitely traces down from david s son solomon to joseph matthew reads and to jacob was born joseph the husband of mary by whom was born jesus who is called christ there are two apparent problems the first is how to reconcile the two paternal genealogies which diverge with the sons of david solomon and nathan the second is why is any genealogy of joseph relavent at all if joseph had nothing to do with it if joseph was not jesus s physical father then the original poster is quite correct that claims for jesus s messianic heritage are not based on truth but only on appearances whatever jesus s divine nature was the second problem is easy in my mind we assume that joseph was not involved in the conception of jesus in any way however a holy spirit capable of working a physical conception in mary is also capable of employing the physical agency of joseph s seed in this work in our materialistic times we interpret viginity and its loss solely in terms of a physical act whereas it is really a matter of purity on a much higher level as well the important thing is that neither mary nor joseph was conscious of any union between them they had not known each other thus the first gospel s dedication of half its opening chapter to the genealogy of joseph is quite relevant to jesus the virgin birth not withstanding to the first question there is an answer that creates to begin with more problems than it resolves it is that the two evangelists are relating the births of two entirely different children of two entirely different sets of parents except for the names of the parents and the child and the birthplace in bethlehem there is no point in common between the two stories matthew and luke converge in their accounts only thirty years later with the baptism of jesus in jordan rudolf steiner offered his explanation of how these accounts begin with two children and then converge with their accounts of the one jesus of nazareth he did not derive his resolution from biblical study or speculation or from other external documents and the discussion of how this could be might bring us beyond the limits of appropriateness for this newsgroup in any case the details are described in steiner s the spiritual guidance of the human being and of humanity the gospel of st luke and the gospel of st matthew whether or not rudolf steiner s methods and explanation are accepted as valid at least this interpretation resolves the apparent contradictions of the two genealogies while leaving the text intact as for the passing of one s jewishness through the mother this was never an issue with jesus no one ever questioned his or mary s jewishness the issue of the genealogies has to do with his paternal line of descent from david the king gerry palo compuserve com
soc.religion.christian	re atheists and hell imagine the worst depth of despair you ve ever encountered or the worst physical pain you ve ever experienced some people suffer such emotional physical and mental anguish in their lives that their deaths seem to be merciful but at least the pain does end in death what if you lived a hundred such lives at the conclusion of one you were instantly reborn into another what if you lived a million a billion years in this state what if this kept going forever did this happen to jesus i don t think so not from what i heard he lived one day of suffering and died if the wages of sin is the above paragraph then jesus didn t pay for our sins did he i d be surprised to see the moderator let this one through but i seriously want a reasonable explanation for this ken
soc.religion.christian	re homosexuality issues in christianity in article may geneva rutgers edu loisc microsoft com lois christiansen writes in article apr geneva rutgers edu fsspr acad alaska edu wrote you might visit some congregations of christians who happen to be homosexuals that are spirit filled believers gifts of the spirit should not be seen as an endorsement of ones behavior a lot of people have suffered because of similar beliefs jesus said that people would come to him saying lord lord and proclaiming the miraculous works they had done in his name jesus would tell them that they were workers of iniquity that do not know him and to depart from him that is not to say that this will happen to everyone who commits a homosexual sin if the holy spirit were only given to the morally perfect he would not be given to me or any of us god can forgive any sin if we repent but people should be careful not to think god has given me a gift of the spirit it must be okay to be gay that is dangerous see also hebrews about those who have partaken of the holy spirit and of the powers of the world to come the lord is working in our community the homosexual community that is he s not asking us to change our sexual nature jesus doesn t ask us to change our own nature we cannot lift ourselves out of our own sin but we must submit to his hand as he changes our nature practicing homosexual acts and homosexual lusts violates the morality that god has set forth if you don t believe that and think those of us who do are just ignorant then at least consider us weak in the faith and be celebate for our sake s is practicing homosexuality worth the cost of a soul whether it be the homosexual s or the one considered ignorant link hudson
soc.religion.christian	re mormon temples mserv mozart cc iup edu mail server writes one thing i don t understand is why being sacred should make the temple rituals secret on of the attributes of being sacred in this case is that they should not be spoken of in a common manner or trampled under feet such as the lords name is today the ceremonies are performed in the temple because the temple has been set aside as being as sacred holy uncommon place we believe that the ceremonies can only be interpreted correctly when they are viewed with the right spirit which in this case is in the temple so from our point of view when they are brought out into the public they are being trampled under feet because of misinterpretations and mocking and it is therefore offensive to us please do not assume that because of my use of the words we and our that i m an official spokesman for the lds church i am merely stating what i believe is the general feeling among us others feel free to disagree steve ward saw bcstec ca boeing com
soc.religion.christian	re what was the immaculate conception maxwell c muir writes just a quick question if mary was immaculately concieved so she could be a pure vessel does this mean that she was without sin and therefore the perfect meaning sinless female human being is this why she is held so highly in the catholic church despite it s basically patriarchical structure she was immaculately conceived and so never subject to original sin but also never committed a personal sin in her whole life this was possible because of the special degree of grace granted to her by god she is regarded so highly because of her special relationship to god and everything that flows from that relationship the catholic church sees her as the new eve the fathers in the early church use this particular figure a lot eve is the mother of all the living in a genetic sense mary is the mother of all the living in the order of grace as sin came through eve so grace jesus christ came through mary
soc.religion.christian	re when are two people married in god s e the only reason for the death penalty is revenge if you are going to try to refute a position try to refute the whole position or acknosledge that you are only speaking to small piece of the problem broad sweeping the only reason etc on as tough nut to crack as the death penalty reallly doesn t help much every year the fbi releases crime stats showing an overwhelming amount of crime is committed by repeat offenders people are killed by folks who have killed who knows how many times before how aobut folks who are for the death penalty not for revenge but to cut down on recidivism jim
soc.religion.christian	re serbian genocide work of god note i am not the original poster i am just answering because i think this is important in article may athos rutgers edu db n andrew cmu edu d andrew byler writes revdak netcom com writes evil result of human sinfulness rather than the will of god in a certain sense yes but in the sense that god allows evil to happen when obviously he being god he could have not had it happen does in a certain sense mean that he wills it to happen god does not condone evil but instead uses it for good as you say however what god desires must be seperated from what actually happens for example god desires that all should be saved timothy however it is quite obvious that nowhere near all are saved was god s will thwarted no because his will cannot be escaped for even when it appears that it is your will doing something it is actually the will of god which by his grace has disposed us to do as he wishes so we come to the age old question why does evil occur to which we must answer that god allows evil to occur though he does not condone it so that his ultimate plan may be brought to sucess personally i suggest reading the parts of the summa theologica of st thomas that deal with the knowledge of god to get a good grasp on this whole idea whoo i m going to have to be very careful with my language here i think god is voluntarily giving up his omniscience in this world so that we can decide on our own where we go free will in this sense god allows evil to occur and in this sense can be held responsible as my chaplain says however his will is of course that all be saved he s not going to save us by himself we have to take a step in his direction before he will save us read that last sentence carefully i m not saying we save ourselves i m saying we have to accept our salvation i do not believe in predestination it would appear from what you say further down that you do stuff deleted i am not saying that anyone deserves punishment more than someone else i am simply pointing out that god could be using the serbians and croatians as instruments of his punishment as he did with the israelites against the cannanites ok i have trouble with that but i guess that s one of those things that can t be resolved by argument i accept your interpretation more deleted the issue is not questioning why god has made the world in the way god so chooses it is whether i am discerning the world in the way god intends it the debate is about whether we should not oppose the serbians in their ethnic cleansing because they might be doing the will of god and i said christians should not be participants in such wars and slaughters that does not mitigate the fact that god allows this evil to continue for he is patient and willing that none should perish so he waits for those whom he has foreknown to turn to him from their evil this is what indicates to me that you may believe in predestination am i correct i do not believe in predestination i believe we all choose whether or not we will accept god s gift of salvation to us again fundamental difference which can t really be resolved yet more deleted i am not saying that the evil befalling the bosnians is justified by their guilt i am saying that it is possible that god is punishing them in this way in no way is this evil justified bu that does not mean that god cannot use evil to further his purposes i am not accusing the bosnians though they may very well be guilty of great sins but that is up to god to judge we are all defendants when the time comes for our judgement by god let us all sincerely hope and pray that we will have jesus christ as our advocate at that judgement yes it is up to god to judge but he will only mete out that punishment at the last judgement as for now evil can be done by human beings that is not god s will and the best we can do is see taht some good comes out of it somehow the thing that most worries me about the it is the will of god argument is that this will convince people that we should not stop the rape and killing when i think that it is most christ like to do just that if jesus stopped the stoning of an adulterous woman perhaps this is not a good parallel but i m going to go with it anyway why should we not stop the murder and violation of people who may or may not be more innocent andy byler vera i am your clock i bind unto myself today vera noyes i am your religion the strong name of the noye midway uchicago edu i own you trinity no disclaimer what lard st patrick s breastplate is there to disclaim
soc.religion.christian	re when are two people married in god s e in article athos rutgers edu johnson cua edu yusef al tariq writes who s law is it that a wedding has to happen in a church the only reqirement is that you and the bride agreee to marry each other how also can you say christian wedding when the proces of marriage is nt really discussed in the bible why mus t a person get a civil marriage also the only standards i look to are those imposed upon me by god not of society if you want to live with someone you can if you don t want to have a civil marriage don t if you don t want to have a wedding in a church don t if you want to call that a marriage go right ahead i hope that the young people that are around you don t follow your example gary chin staff engineer sun microsystems mt view ca gchin eng sun com if the original message claims that marriage is not discussed in the bible i have to disagree various aspects of marriage are discussed in some of paul s letters ephesians sees marriage as a symbol of god s relationship with the church if it means specifically that the marriage ceremony isn t described then that seems to be true but i think what most people mean by christian marriage is not so much that it takes place in a church as that the parties undertake the various commitments to each other that are associated with marriage in the bible clh
soc.religion.christian	mormon temples mserv mozart cc iup edu mail server writes one thing i don t understand is why being sacred should make the temple rituals secret the so sacred it s secret explanation is a bit misleading while there is a profound reverence for the temple endowment there is no injunction against discussing the ceremony itself in public but since public discussion is often irreverent most mormons would rather keep silent than have a cherished practice maligned but there are certain elements of the ceremony which participants explicitly covenant not to reveal except in conjunction with the ceremony itself granted the gnostic christians had their secret rituals but these seem to have been taken entirely from pagan pre christian mystery religions there are other interpretations to christian history in this matter one must recall that most of what we know about the gnostics was written by their enemies eusebius claims that jesus imparted secret information to peter james and john after his resurrection and that those apostles transmitted that information to the rest of the twelve eusebius historia ecclesiastica ii irenaeus claims this information was passed on to the priests and bishops against heresies iv but eusebius disagrees he claims the secret ceremonies of the christian church perished with the apostles interestingly enough eusebius refers to the groups which we today call gnostics as promulgators of a false gnosis eusebius op cit iii his gripe was not that thay professed a gnosis but that they had the wrong one writings dealing with jesus post resurrection teachings emphasize secrecy not so much a concealment as a policy of not teaching certain things indiscriminately in one story simon magus opens a dialog with peter on the nature of god peter s response is you seem to me not to know what a father and a god is but i could tell you both whence souls are and when and how they were made but it is not permitted to me now to disclose these things to you clementine recognitions ii if any one theme underlies the recognitions it is the idea that certain doctrines are not to be idly taught but can be had after a certain level of spiritual maturity is reached now one can approach this and other such evidence in many ways i don t intend that everyone interpret christian history as i do but i believe that evidence exists favorably interpreted of course of early christian rites analogous to those practiced by mormons today neither new testament christianity nor biblical judaism made a secret of their practices but if judaism and christianity had such ceremonies would you expect to read about them in public documents one can search the book of mormon and other mormon scripture and find almost no information on temple worship yes you could establish that mormons worship in temples but you would probably be hard pressed to characterize that worship on that basis can we conclude that the bible explains all practices which might have taken place and that absence of such descriptions proves they did not exist mormon scholar dr hugh nibley offers us a list of scriptures from which i have taken a few it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven but to them it is not given matt all men cannot receive this saying save they to whom it is given matt i have yet many things to say unto you but ye cannot bear them now john the time cometh when i shall no more speak unto you in proverbs but i shall shew you plainly of the father john unspeakable words which it is not lawful for a man to utter cor many things i would not write with paper and ink but i come unto you and speak face to face jn nibley since cumorah pp again these can also be interpreted many different ways i believe they serve to show that not all doctrines which could have been taught were actually taught openly i have heard that joseph smith took the entire practice i e both the ritual and the secrecy surrounding the ritual from the freemasons anybody in the know have any authoritative information on whether or not this claim is true historically joseph smith had been adiministering the temple endowment ceremony for nearly a year before joining the freemasons there is diary evidence which supports a claim that the rite did not change after smith became a mason it can be argued that smith had ample exposure to masonic proceedings through the burlesque of his time and through his brother hyrum a mason though no specific connection has yet been established my conversations with masons with respect to temple rite transcriptions which have appeared on the net have led me to believe that the connection from masonry to mormonism is fairly tenuous as our moderator notes most of what was similar was removed in the recent revisions to the temple ceremony i believe that critics who charge that mormon rites were lifted from freemasonry do not have adequate knowledge of the rites in question jay windley university of utah salt lake city jwindley asylum cs utah edu
soc.religion.christian	re mormon temples mserv mozart cc iup edu mail server writes saw bcstec ca boeing com steve a ward writes dan kuhub cc ukans edu writes dan s question about mormon temple rituals deleted for brevity just thought i would interject this and i believe you dan when you say that you don t mean to offend for us lds temple goers the temple ceremonies are very sacred so much so that anyone who goes there promises never to divulge them so how much can you trust someone who is telling you about the cerermony one thing i don t understand is why being sacred should make the temple rituals secret there are lots of sacred things in christianity including the sacred scriptures themselves but there is nothing secret about these things is it appropriate for the lord not to reveal certain things before the world i e publish them widely these things sacred to himself he may place any pre or post conditions he feels are necessary moreover there are precedents in scripture where knowledge of sacred things is withheld after the transfiguration jesus instructed peter james and john to tell the vision to no man until the son of man be risen again from the dead matt if we were living at the time of savior there would be no public record of this event a faithful friend of paul experiences a vision of paradise when he heard unspeakable words which it is not lawful for a man to utter cor this person heard something which paul can not write to the corinthians and us there is an incident recorded in the book of mormon where words uttered by babes were forbidden that there should not any man write them nephi the entire text follows for those of you without access to the bom nephi behold it came to pass on the morrow that the multitude gathered themselves together and they both saw and heard these children yea even babes did open their mouths and utter marvelous things and the things which they did utter were forbidden that there should not any man write them some lds scholars speculate that these words which could not be written are the sacred portions from temple we are to withhold from the world but it could be something else i can understand why mormons would limit temple access to only faithful mormons but i have never understood the emphasis on shrouding temple ritual in mystery there is much we can discuss about the temple ordinances we can discuss regarding baptisms and other vicarious ordinances for the dead we can discuss certain concepts regarding the endowment the ritual however there are certain elements i can not discuss with anyone including other saints outside of the temple as a portion of the endowment we receive the tokens and signs that will permit us access to heaven i must keep this knowledge sacred and respect the conditions under which it is revealed to me a idler
soc.religion.christian	re the doctrine of original sin nothing unclean shall enter heaven rev therefore babies are born in such a state that should they die they are cuf off from god and put in hell which is exactly the doctrine of st augustine and st thomas of coures having only original sins on thier souls they suffer the lightest punishment the loss of the vision oand presence of god but that does not change the undeniable fact that they cannot possibly come to a forgivenss of original sin nor can they inherit eternal life that as st augustine said is what the pelagian heretics taught which is why he said later if you want to be a christian do not teach that unbaptized infants can come to a forgivenss of original sin doesn t the bible say that god is a fair god if this is true how can this possibly be fair to the infants
soc.religion.christian	re question about virgin mary two follow up s to mark s last posting as far as current investigations the church recently declared the crying statue and corresponding messages from mary at akita japan as approved i found this out about a month ago again in the proof department start with the appearances of mary at fatima among other things there were pictures taken of the miracle of the sun that appeared in some major american newspaper the new york times i believe as well as most of the major european newspapers i could talk or post for hours on this topic but i have a thesis to write god bless mike walker p s anyone want info i have more mdw uxa cso uiuc edu
soc.religion.christian	re portland earthquake archau saturn wwc edu austin c archer writes i am interested in views about the non event of may seriously how can a christian discriminate between messages from god which are to be taken seriously and those which are spurious is there a useful heuristic which would help us avoid embracing messages which by their non fulfillment are proven to be false thus causing the name of christ to be placed in disrepute is this a problem at all i believe that a careful understanding of scripture can help us here it seems to me that anytime we are proven by events to be mistaken it points to a serious failure in understanding god s will it should result in a reevaluation of what we accept as truth i must hasten to add that i was always skeptical even cynical about these prophesies as i tend to be concerning all such but clearly many christians put much stock in them if the church represents christ in the world then christians must avoid being made the laughing stock of the world lest we dishonor him further the more often we cry wolf the less seriously we tend to be taken any comments good point it is very true that these false predictions are dangerous we are warned more than once in scripture about false prophtets however as is often the case with other issues one cannot let those who falsly report such visions as a reason against believing in any of them i did not get the impression you were asserting this by the way i consider my response not so much a response to your posting but a response to the topic as a whole example the appearances of mary at fatima portugal in among other things she predicted the conversion of russia to atheism something that happened less than a year later w the bolshevik revolution she also predicted the second world war that is predicte predicted that it would occur during the papacy of a certain pope who was not the current one it happened just like she said she warned there would be fire in the sky as a warning that the second world war was about to start about a week before germany invaded weathermen and women i suppose all over europe from england to spain to eastern europe reported the most spectacular reddish color in the sky ever recorded to this day some try to explain it off as the northern lights and the relation to mary s prediction simply coincidence you all can decide for yourselves mary predicted that the atheistic russia would spread her evils all over the world and persecute religion she said many other things as well too numerous to list here every single one has been realized one can only use the term coincidence so many times in the same explanation before its use becomes ridiculous so yes there are many false prophets and many false reports there are true ones too we must always remain open to that fatima was one example there is another one currently occuring the apparitions that have been taking place at medjurgorje yugoslavia or whatever its called now mary has been appearing every day for eleven years now it s time the world started listening more info available to any who want it peace in christ our lord mike walker mdw uxa cso uiuc edu
soc.religion.christian	re the arrogance of christians news cbnewsk att com writes arrogance is arrogance it is not the result of religion it is the result of people knowing or firmly believing in an idea and one s desire to show others of one s rightness i assume that god decided to be judge for our sake as much as his own if we allow him who is kind and merciful be the judge we ll probably be better off than if others judged us or we judged ourselves cor but if we judged ourselves we would not come under judgment when we are judged by the lord we are being discipled so that we will not be condemned with the world cor even though i am not physically present i am with you in spirit and i have already passed judgment on the one who did this just as if i were present cor the spiritual man makes judgments about all things but he himself is not subject to any man s judgement for who has known the mind of the lord that he may instruct him but we have the mind of christ jude enoch the seventh from adam prophesied about these men see the lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him arrogance is a sin although a desire to show others of one s rightness may be a sign of arrogance in some cases it may be only a sign that they are following the bible in others jude be merciful to those who doubt snatch others from the fire and save them to others show mercy mixed with fear hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh if i find someone arrogant i typically don t have anything to do with them i hope you don t find me arrogant then this sounds like a bad practice ignoring what certain people say because you perceive them as arrogant james my dear brothers take note of this everyone should be quick to listen slow to speak and slow to become angry aaron
soc.religion.christian	re christianity and repeated lives there is nothing in christianity that precludes the idea of repeated lives on earth there is a paragraph in the new testament which in my opinion clearly makes a positive inference to reincarnation i don t remember which one it is off of the top of my head but it basically goes like this jesus is talking with the apostles and they ask him why the pharisees say that before the messiah can come elijah must first come jesus replies that elijah has come but they did not recognize him it then says that the apostles perceived that he was refering to john the baptist this seems to me to clearly imply reincarnation can anyone offer a reasonable alternative interpretation i would be very interested to hear it
soc.religion.christian	re satanic tounges in article may geneva rutgers edu marka hcx ssd csd harris com mark ashley writes in article may geneva rutgers edu mmh dcs qmw ac uk matthew huntbach writes i have seen the claims but i don t know if there are any authenticated cases of people making prolonged speeches in real languages they don t know from my observations speaking in tongues in practice has nothing at all do with this i have a simple test i take several people who can speak only one language e g chinese russian german english then i let the gifted one start speaking in toungues the audience should understand the gifted one clearly in their native language however the gifted one can only hear himself speaking in his own language there seem to be many points to the speaking in tongues thing which are problematic it s use as prayer language seems especially troubling to me i understand that when you pray in tongues the spirit is doing the talking and when you pray you pray to god and the spirit is god so the spirit is talking to himself which is why i only go by the pentecost use where it s an actual language moreover the phrase though i speak with the tongues of men and angels used by paul in i cor is misleading out of context some would then assume that there is some angelic tongue and if when they speak it is no known language then it is an angelic tongue hmmm in the old testament story about the tower of babel we see how god punished by giving us different language can we assume then that if angels have their own language at all that they have the same one amongst other angels after all they were not punished in any manner so why do these supposed angelic tongues all sound different from one another it s disturbing to think that some people find ways to justify jabbering but i ll buy the idea that someone could talk in a language never learned trouble is while such stories abound any and all attempts at verification and we are to test the spirit either show that the witness had no real idea of the circumstances or that outright fabrication was involved the brother puka story in a previous post seems like a friend of a friend thing and linguistically a two syllable word hardly qualifies as language inflection or no much as many faith healers have trouble proving their victories since most ailments cured are just plain unprovable and modern day ressurrections have never been validated so is it true that no modern day xenoglossolalia has been proved by clergy or lay
soc.religion.christian	giving spiritual gifts i just thought i d share a nice experience before my exam today i was walking down the streets on our campus and a beggar came up and asked me for any spare change i might have i had a dollar or so that i gave her and not wanting to give away all my money to strangers i generally give a dollar as that will buy a little food at mcdonalds or something i offered her some spiritual gifts as i called them rather than gifts of money i talked of how great i felt that god had made such a pretty day and how nice it was to give to people she then said she was getting married soon she talked about how she and her husband had very little they may not have even had a house for all i know but that they felt a very special love in the lord an unselfish kind of caring it warmed my heart to know that people can have so little monetarily and realize that spiritually they are indeed very rich a good lesson for all of us who say we want more more more what we really need cannot be counted or sold or bought doug fowler dxf po cwru edu heaven is a great big hug that lasts forever and when that one great scorer comes to mark against your name he writes not whether you ve won or lost but how you played the game grantland rice
soc.religion.christian	re variants in the nt text cont i wish to echo what d andrew kille wrote i know of no published form in english of the d type recension of acts of course bezae is quite bizarre in the gospels as well only d type texts share bezae s strange readings by the way d stands for codex claromontanus elsewhere frank d
soc.religion.christian	re satan kicked out of heaven biblical in article may athos rutgers edu easteee wkuvx bitnet writes hello all i have a question about satan i was taught a long time ago that satan was really an angel of god and was kicked out of heaven because he challenged god s authority the problem is i cannot find this in the bible is it in the bible if not where did it originate satan was one of god s highest ranking angels like uriel raphael michael and gabriel in fact his name was satanel he did challenge god s authority and got kicked out of heaven a lot of the mythology of satan he lost the el suffix when he fell comes from the book of enoch and is not found in the bible read the book of enoch available thru bookstores or get the book called angels an endangered species i think steven c salaris we re a lot more dangerous than live crew salaris carcs wustl edu and their stupid use of foul language because we have ideas we have a philosophy geoff tate queensryche
soc.religion.christian	re why do people become atheists in article may athos rutgers edu mayne nu cs fsu edu writes in article may athos rutgers edu fil sapienza med umich edu fil sapienza writes why are atheists atheists believes it could be the result of brokenness this is condescending at best and a slightly disquised ad hominem attack this attitude on the part of many theists especially the vocal ones is one reason for the hostility you sense how do you like it when atheists say that people turn to religion out of immature emotionalism i agree if you are going to find out anything from people who don t share your beliefs do not attack them or condescend to them and hope to get a neutral picture of them come to them with an open mind i don t believe that atheists are generally any more broken than anybody else any cause and effect is likely to be the other way there is an emotional price to pay for being different hearing one s beliefs or lack thereof condemned and one s motives and character attacked well you do believe in something as i see it even if it is a sort of anti belief no negative connotation meant i mean simply that you believe that god does not exist christians can also feel that sense of difference however when they are associated with those weird televangelists who always talk about satan if you ll excuse the cliched sound of this everyone has to deal with his her differences from other people i can understand how being an atheist could be hard for you being a christian is sometimes hard for me i became an atheist when i got old enough to reason because there was just no good reason to believe the religion i had been taught this was very painful because of the pressure i was placed under by my family and friends i wanted to fit in believe and be accepted i tried but finally the cognitive dissonance was just too great you should not have to repress how you feel you should be able to discuss it without fear i think there are admirable things to learn from any belief which can enrich your own by asking myself the questions that atheists may ask me i can learn the answers and become stronger in my faith if my faith can t support knowing the answers to those questions it is weak and untrue i have sympathy for gays growing up in repressive environments and having to hide and sometimes at first try to deny a part of themselves because i ve been there only in my case it was my rationality instead of sexuality which i was forced to try to repress in some way the pressures were different of course because you chose your beliefs or are you saying that they were not your choice but born of necessity please no flames about whether or not gay people choose their lifestyle that s elsewhere in this newsgroup i must say that i wasn t hurt by my experiences in church any more than some of my friends who didn t become atheists i was just hurt differently i m not sure i understand this sentence could you explain moderator points out that many most atheists aren t hostile they just cease believiing in xiantiy religion true consider also that people like pat robertson and many of the christian extremists in soc religion christianity naturally evoke hostility by their attacks on anyone who disagrees and their attempts to force their views on others you are known by the company you keep christians trying to preach in alt atheism should not be surprised by hostility ouch yes part of being a christian is accepting everyone with an open heart including people of our own camp with whom we completely disagree by the same token i believe that accusation and suspicion are not the best way to reach out to those not of our faith nor is it effective to try to browbeat people into accepting our religion i have a different idea of mission be what i am a christian who is happy in her faith and if others see that and want to know about either the happiness or the religion i ll share what i know without pressure and let them make their own decisions at some point you just have to agree to disagree acceptance of diversity not uniformity is the way to sow peace bill mayne vera noyes i am your clock i bind unto myself today vera noyes i am your religion the strong name of the noye midway uchicago edu i own you trinity no disclaimer what lard st patrick s breastplate is there to disclaim
soc.religion.christian	re satan kicked out of heaven biblical in article may athos rutgers edu easteee wkuvx bitnet writes hello all i have a question about satan i was taught a long time ago that satan was really an angel of god and was kicked out of heaven because he challenged god s authority the problem is i cannot find this in the bible is it in the bible if not where did it originate i did a workshop on this for an episcopalian student gathering a couple months ago because i wanted to know the answer too as far as i could tell although that story was never specifically told in the bible many references are made to it primarily in the new testament in the old testament there is actually an entirely different view of satan as a excuse the pun devil s advocate for yahweh see the book of job getting back to the fallen angel story there are no references to lucifer in the bible except for a mistranslation of the morning star in the king james version isaiah which probably referred to a babylonian monarch much in the same was as the sun king referred to louis xiv all in all i don t know where the story came from it may have been rolling around for a long time or milton paradise lost may have invented it sorry for the sketchiness of the rest of this but i am in a hurry and need to eat lunch feel free to email me about the other stuff i found out although a lot of it is just the result of a bible concordance program called quickverse it s really lousy by the way don t buy it wondering eddie o western kentucky university easteee wkuvx bitnet hope this helped vera je cherche une ame qui of course i don t agree with pourra m aider mylene farmer s religious views je suis i just think they re interesting d une generation desenchantee vera noyes mylene farmer noye midway uchicago edu
soc.religion.christian	re monophysites and mike walker in article may geneva rutgers edu db n andrew cmu edu d andrew byler writes mike walker if you are using the standard formula of fully god and fully human that i m not sure why you object to saying that jesus was human i think the usual analysis would be that sin is not part of the basic definition of humanity it s a consequence of the fall jesus is human but not a fallen human clh i differ with our moderator on this i thought the whole idea of god coming down to earth to live as one of us subject to sin and death as one of the consecration prayers in the book of common prayer puts it was that jesus was tempted but did not succumb if sin is not part of the basic definition of humanity then jesus fully human nicea would not be subject to sin but then the resurrection loses some of its meaning because we encounter our humanity most powerfully when we sin to distinguish between human and fallen human makes jesus less like one of us at the time we need him most these issues get mighty subtle when you see people saying different things it s often hard to tell whether they really mean seriously different things or whether they are using different terminology i don t think there s any question that there is a problem with nestorius and i would agree that the saying christ had a human form without a real human nature or will is heretical but i d like to be a bit wary about the copts armenians etc recent discussions suggest that their monophysite position may not be as far from orthodoxy as many had thought nestorius was an extreme representative of one of the two major schools of thought more moderate representatives were regarded as orthodox e g theodore of mopsuestia my impression is that the modern monophysite groups inherit the entire tradition not just nestorius version and that some of them may have a sufficient balanced position to be regarded as orthodox clh first the monophysites inherited none of nestorius s version they were on the opposite end of the spectrum from him second the historical record suggests that the positions attributed to nestorius were not as extreme as his successful opponents who wrote the conventional history claimed mainly nestorius opposed the term theotokos for mary arguing i think correctly that a human could not be called mother of god i mean in the athanasian creed we talk about the son uncreate surely even arians would concede that jesus existed long before mary anyway nestorius s opponents claimed that by saying mary was not theotokos that he claimed that she only gave birth to the human nature of jesus which would require two seperate and distinct natures the argument fails though because mary simply gave birth to jesus who preexisted her either divinely if you accept nestorianism as commonly defined or both natures intertwined a la chalcedon second i am not sure that nestorianism is not a better alternative than the orthodox view after all i find it hard to believe that pre incarnation that jesus s human nature was in heaven likewise post ascension i think rather that god came to earth and took our nature upon him it was a seperate nature capable of being tempted as in gethsemane since i believe the divine nature could never be tempted but in its moments of weakness the divine nature prevailed comments on the above warmly appreciated jason albert there may be differences in what we mean by subject to sin the original complaint was from someone who didn t see how we could call jesus fully human because he didn t sin i completely agree that jesus was subject to temptation i simply object to the idea that by not succumbing he is thereby not fully human i believe that you do not have to sin in order to be human i again apologize for confusing nestorianism and monophysitism i agree with you and have said elsewhere that there s reason to think that not everyone who is associated with heretical positions was in fact heretical there are scholars who maintain that nestorius was not nestorian i have to confess that the first time i read some of the correspondence between nestorius and his opponents i thought he got the better of them however most scholars do believe that the work that eventually led to chalcedon was an advance and that nestorius was at the very least rash and dogmatic as the editor of the christological controversy refers to him in rejecting all approaches other than his own as regular usenet readers know narrowness can be just as much an impediment as being wrong furthermore he did say some things that i think are problematical he responds to a rather mild letter from cyril with a flame worthy of usenet in it he says to attribute also to the logos in the name of the incarnation the characteristics of the flesh that has been conjoined with him is my brother either the work of a mind which truly errs in the fashion of the greeks or that of a mind diseased with the insane heresy of arius and apollinaris and the others those who are thus carried away with the idea of this association are bound because of it to make the divine logos have a part in being fed with milk and participate to some degree in growh and stand in need of angelic assistance because of his fearfulness these things are taken falsely when they are put off on the deity and they become the occasion of just condemnation for us who perpetrate the falsehood it s all well and good to maintain a proper distinction between humanity and divinity but the whole concept of incarnation is based on exactly the idea that the divine logos does in fact have to some degree a part in being born growing up and dying of course it must be understood that there s a certain indirectness in the logos participation in these things but there must be some sort of identification between the divine and human or we don t have an incarnation at all nestorius seemed to think in black and white terms and missed the sorts of nuances one needs to deal with this area you say i find it hard to believe that pre incarnation that jesus s human nature was in heaven i don t think that s required by orthodox doctrine it s the divine logos that is eternal clh
soc.religion.christian	translations which version of the bible do you consider to be the most accurate translation
soc.religion.christian	satan and mtv somewhere someone told me that satan was the angel in charge of music in heaven and on top of that he was the most beautiful of the angels isn t it funny that these days how mtv has become the bible of music and beauty these days mtv controls what bands are popular no matter how bad they are in fact it is better to be politically correct like u madonna than to have any musical talent then of course you have this television station that tells us all how to dress think about it who started the retro fashion craze mtv and madonna gag anyway just food for thought it is really my own wierd theory if revelation was to come true today i think mtv would the ever changing waters music and fashion world that the beast would arise from and madonna will be the whore of babylon riding the beast and drinking the blood of the martyrs hmmmm great idea for a book movie steven c salaris we re a lot more dangerous than live crew salaris carcs wustl edu and their stupid use of foul language because we have ideas we have a philosophy geoff tate queensryche
soc.religion.christian	re satanic tounges in article may athos rutgers edu koberg spot colorado edu allen koberg writes there is dis crepancy even among charismatic organizations as to the proper use of tongues be it revelatory with interpretation for prayer use or for signifying believers which i doubt since any one can do it pentecostals assembly of god church of christ seem to espouse all three neo pentecostals tend to view prayer use and as a sign as the uses speaking in tongues during a service is not usually done by neo pentecostals because for the most part they still attend protestant churches non denominational churches seem to view the use as a sign as merely optional but recommended koberg just a couple of minor corrections here the churches of christ do not usually believe in speaking in tongues in fact many of them are known for being strongly opposed to pentecostal teaching you are probably thinking of church of god in christ the largest african american pentecostal denomination i m not sure what you mean by signifying believers but it should be pointed out that the assemblies of god does not now nor has it ever held that speaking in tongues is the sign that one is a christian the doctrine that traditional pentecostals including the a g maintain is that speaking in tongues is the sign of a second experience after becoming a christian in which one is baptized in the holy spirit that may be what you were referring to but i point this out because pentecostals are frequently labeled as believing that you have to speak in tongues in order to be a christian such a position is only held by some groups and not the majority of pentecostals many pentecostals will quote the passage in mark about these signs following them that believe but they generally do not interpret this as meaning if you don t pactice the signs you aren t saved i know it s hard to summarize the beliefs of a movement that has such diversity but i think you ve made some pretty big generalizations here do neo pentecostals only believe in tongues as a sign and tongues as prayer but not tongues as revelatory with a message i ve never heard of that before in fact i would have characterized them as believing the same as pentecostals except less likely to see tongues as a sign of spirit baptism also while neo pentecostals may not be inclined to speak in tongues in the non pentecostal churches they attend they do have their own meetings and in many cases a whole church will be charismatic ken banner dept of religious studies university of pennsylvania kbanner philae sas upenn edu
soc.religion.christian	re major views of the trinity ann jackson ajackson cs ubc ca wrote on may in article may geneva rutgers edu jim green writes can t someone describe someone s trinity in simple declarative sentences with words that have common meaning the answer to this question appears to be no i would like to submit the following which helped me enormously if it has already been posted i apologize it seems that during the middle ages it was customary for pastors to explain the trinity to their parishoners by analogy to water water is water but can exist in three forms liquid ice and vapor thus it is possible for one essence to exist in three forms and recently the pastor of my church drew an analogy which i also found useful a woman is often percieved by others in three ways depending on their relationship to her a mother a wife and an employee in a business thus it seems clear to me that the essence of god can subsist in the father son and holy spirit or depending on one s particular need for him carol bocher
soc.religion.christian	re homosexuality issues in christiani any one who thinks that homosexuality and christianity are compatible should ck out romans i corinthians i timothy jude ii peter gen lev to name a few of the verses that pertain to homosexuality in christ s love bryan whitsell i was waiting for this i think your question should be rephrased the many verses of the bible which condem homosexuality by our beliefs have been shoved down the throats of homosexuals for a long time by well meaning christians the question is how do they interpret these verses any discussion of any issue this or any other issue requires a proof of your case as well as a disproof of the opposing view we are already familiar with those verses and many have proven to themselves that these condem homosexual behaviour we must now establish reasons for not believing this to be true based on the interpretation of these scriptures given by someone who has come to grips with them todd
soc.religion.christian	apology i responded to a post last week and it carried somewhat of a hostile tone for which i am apologizing for it is not my intent to create contriversy or to piss people off to those who i offend i m sorry
soc.religion.christian	national repentance concerning christians praying for coporate forgiveness of national sins michael covington claims the following of c s lewis c s lewis made the same point in an essay after world war ii when some christian leaders in britain were urging national repentance for the horrors sins of world war ii michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi i was surprised when i heard this same kind of remark from a fellow grad student i know especially since he had seminary training i have read the same essay and do not find lewis making any such claim rather lewis is condemning the use of such coporate prayer efforts as platforms to make political jabs at opponents feigned as confessions of guilt ie lord please forgive us for allowing insert political issue idea platform to exist in our country it is wrong and we ask your forgiveness i would be interested in knowing what part of the essay you feel condemns national repentance please quote jonathan waugh graduate research associate pulmonary medicine div the ohio state university samp rm perry st columbus oh jwaugh magnus acs ohio state edu
soc.religion.christian	mary s assumption a few points about mary s being taken into heaven at the end of her life on earth one piece of evidence for mary s assumption into heaven is the fact that no christian church ever claimed to be the sight where she was buried some christian churches claimed to be located at the final resting places of peter mark and other saints but no one ever claimed to possess the body of mary the greatest of the saints why because everyone knew that she had been taken up into heaven although there is no definitive scriptural proof for the assumption of mary some passages seem suggestive like the passage in revelation that describes a woman giving birth to a son and later being crowned in the heavens of course the woman in this passage has other interpretations she can also be taken a symbol for the church the assumption of mary makes sense because of her relationship to christ jesus perfect god and perfect man fulfilled the requirements of the law perfectly under the law god gave to us we are to honor our mother and father and christ s act of taking his mother into heaven is part of his fulfillment of that law also he took his flesh from her so it seems appropriate that he decide not to allow her flesh to rot in the grave one last point an ex catholic attempted to explain catholic doctrine on the assumption by asserting it is connected to a belief that mary did not die this is not a correct summary of what catholics believe the dogma of the assumption was carefully phrased to avoid saying whether mary did or did not die in fact the consensus among catholic theologians seems to be that mary in fact did die this would make sense christ died and his mother who waited at the foot of the cross would want to share in his death brian finnerty
soc.religion.christian	should christians fight justifiable war i posted this a couple of weeks ago and it doesn t seem to have appeared on the newsgroup and i haven t had a reply from the moderator we were having intermittent problems with our mail at the time please excuse me if you have seen this before should christians fight last week alastair posted some questions about fighting and whether there are such things as justifiable wars i have started looking into these things and have jotted down my findings as i go i haven t answered all his questions yet and i know what i have here is on a slightly different tack but possibly i ll be able to get into it more deeply later and post some more info soon our duty to our neighbour do good to all men gal love our neighbour as ourselves matt act the part of the good samaritan luke toward any who may be in trouble we will therefore render every possible assistance to an injured man and therefore should not be part of any organisation which causes people harm even medical corps of the army etc christians are by faith citizens of the commonwealth of israel ephesians and also recognise that god rules in the kingdoms of men and therefore we should not be taking part in any of the struggles of those nations which we are not part of due to our faith we are to be strangers and pilgrims amongst the nations so we are just passing through and not part of any nation or any national aspirations this can also be applied to politics etc but that s another story we are not supposed to strive or resist evil even suffer yourselves to be defrauded it is therefore incosistent for us to strive to assist in preserving a state which christ will destroy when he returns to set up god s kingdom our duty to the state render therefore unto caesar the things which be caesar s and unto god the things which be god s luke let every soul be subject unto the higher powers for there is no power but of god the powers that be are ordained of god whosoever resisteth the power resisteth the ordinance of god rom submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the lord s sake whether it be to king as supreme for so is the will of god that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men pet these scriptures make it clear that submission to the powers that be is a divine command but it is equally clear from acts that when any ordinance of man runs counter to god s law we must refuse submission to it the reason for this is that we are god s bond servants and his service is our life s task an example of the type of thing is in col where bondservants were to work heartily as unto the lord so also we should work as if our boss was god i e pressed down shaken together and running over oops a bit of a side track there in the contests between the nations we are on god s side a side that is not fighting in the battle but is testifying to the truth when we believe in god and embrace his promises we become fellow citizens with the saints and of the household of god and are no longer interested in associations of the world think of this in relation to unions etc as well paul tells us to lay aside every weight that we may run the race that is set before us and if we are wise we will discard any association which would retard our progress thou therefore endure hardness as a good soldier of jesus christ no man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier tim one of these entanglements he warns about is be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers one of the obvious applications of this is marriage with unbelievers but it also covers things like business partnerships and any other position where we may form a close association with any person or persons not believing the truth about god in this case the army the principle comes from deut remember that as well as them being different animals of different strengths one was clean and one unclean under the law these ideas are strongly stressed in cor i suggest you read this the yoking also has another aspect that of servitude and jesus says take my yoke upon you so we are then yoked with christ and cannot be yoked with unbelievers we have already seen that we are bondservants of christ and paul says become not ye the bondservants of men cor rv an example from the old testament the question is asked in chr shouldest thou help the ungodly the situation here is a good example of what happens when you are yoked together with unbelievers jehoshaphat was lucky to escape with his life here are the facts he had made an affinity with ahab who had sold himself to work wickedness before the lord kings when asked by ahab to form a military alliance he had agreed and said i am as thou art my people as thy people kings an unequal yoking he sttod firm in refusing the advice of the false prophets and insisted on hearing the prophet of the lord trying to do the right thing he found that he was yoked and therefore couldn t break away from the evil association he had made god says to us come out from among them and be ye separate and touch not the unclean thing and i will receive you and ye shall be my sons and daughters cor this is more or less what i have found out so far i m still looking into it as i don t think i ve answered all the questions raised by alastair yet heres a summary and a few things to think about the christian in under command obedience to this command is an essential factor in his relationship with christ john total dedication to this course of action is required romans disobedience compromises the close relationship between christ and his followers pet we are to be separated to god rom this involves a master servant relationship rom no man can serve two masters matt all that is in the kosmos is lust and pride quite opposed to gos john christs kingdom is not of this world i e not worldly in nature if it was his servants would fight to deliver him if christ is our master and he was not delivered by his servants because his kingdom was not of this world then his servants cannot possibly fight for another master strangers and pilgrims have no rights and we cannot swear allegiance to anyone but god the servant of the lord must not war but be gentle to all tim this does not just apply to war but also to avoiding strife throughout our lives there is a war to be waged not with man s weapons cor but with god s armour eph i ll probably post some more when i ve had time to look into things a bit further gideon king phone university of otago fax department of computer science e mail gideon farli otago ac nz p o box dunedin next mail preferred new zealand
soc.religion.christian	st maria goretti heres the life of st maria goretti posted with kind permission of the editor of the australian catholic magazine morning star hope you like it put up with anything to prevent sin st maria goretti maria was born on october th to luigi and assunta goretti the eldest daughter in the family of seven she was a cheerful girl always imitating her parents she had but one disire but one wish to receive our lord in the blessed sacrament the date was finally set for little maria to receive our lord on the feast of corpus christi for maria time seemed like an eter nity as she slowly neared the great day when it finally arrived fr jerome the priest who was to celebrate the mass and give the children their first holy communion delivered a sermon on the immense love of jesus christ for them and the great love we should have in return for him he then warmly urged them to die rather than commit a mortal sin maria humbly approached the altar of god and received the holy eucharist her only sadness was the thought of her father s absence who died some time beforehand as for the rest of the day maria remained under the spell of the divine visit that is until her thoughts changed to when she could go next to holy communion thus ended the happiest day of maria s life over the next twelve months maria had changed from a giggling little girl into a quiet young lady with responsibilities as her mother went out into the fields in place of her husband maria took on the ironing cooking washing and other motherly duties she was doing this not only for her own family but also for the serenellis a father and son who lived with the goretti s owning a share in the farm although maria was poorer than all the other children she by far surpassed them in virtue in all thi ngs she did the holy will of god during the month of june alessandro serenelli the son twice made advances upon maria when he chanced to be alone with her on both occasions maria managed to struggle free of alessandro s strong grip but on the second he threatened to kill her if she even uttered a word to her mother from this day on maria lived in terror fearing lest alessandro attack again on july th alessandro left work in the fields to get a handkerchief as he claimed he went to the storeroom beneath the house where maria who was outside on the landing with the baby could hear him fumbling about in with tools she wondered what he was doing it was later learned that he was sharpening a blade he went to the house and called for maria she told him she wouldn t go to him unless she knew why she was needed he stormed out to the landing and dragged her up to her room mar ia instantly realized what he was up to no no no do not touch me it is a sin you will go to hell at this point alessandro held the knife over maria s chest who was now on the floor will you or will you not maria gathered all her energy no i will not alessandro no she had chosen her martyrdom over sin god over satan overcome with rage alessandro plunged the knife into maria s breast fourteen times finally he came to his senses and thought maria was dead frantically he threw the knife behind a closet and locked himself in his room the crying of the baby teresa on the landing brought the attention to assunta and the father of alessandro as the baby was unattended and was in danger of falling off they ran to the house to find maria who covered in blood was dragging herself to the door when asked what happened she said alessandro stabbed her he wanted to make me do wrong and i would not the ambulance arrived then the police who took alessandro away as the ambulance carried maria to the hospital a large crowd followed on foot the doctors at the hospital held no hope for poor little maria the same fr jerome who gave maria her first communion came to administer the last rites and to give her holy viaticum he asked maria if she would forgive her murderer yes for the love of jesus i forgive him i wish for him to one day join me in paradise may god forgive him for i alread y have maria died at about three o clock alessandro was tried and found guilty of maria s death but because of his age he was sentenced to only thirty years in prison after eight years of being a violent prisoner and show ing no regret for his crime he saw in a dream in the midst of a field of flowers maria holding out a bunch of white lilies to him soon later he wrote to the local bishop begging god s par don for the grave sin he had committed he later gave testimony in maria s beatification in less than three years later on ju ne th maria was canonised assunta goretti was the first mother ever to be present at her daughter s canonisation may st maria goretti help us to be pure and grant us the strength to die rather than commit a mortal sin saint maria goretti pray for us by brendan arthur internet simon giaeb cc monash edu au viva cristo rey long live christ the king
soc.religion.christian	mormon beliefs about bastards could anyone enlighten me on how the mormon church views children born out of wedlock in particular i m interested to know if any stigma is attached to the children as opposed to the parents i m especially keen to learn if there is or is not any prohibition in the mormon faith on bastards entering heaven or having their names entered in the big genealogical book the mormons keep in salt lake city if this is an issue on which the official position has changed over time i m interested in learning both old and new beliefs e mail or posting is fine all information or pointers are appreciated elliotte rusty harold department of mathematics elharo shiva njit edu new jersey institute of technology erh tesla njit edu newark nj
soc.religion.christian	re national repentance mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington writes i heard on the radio today about a christian student conference where christians were called to repent of america s national sins such as sexual promiscuity how can i repent of someone else s sin i can t and when i claim to repent of someone else s sin am i not in fact judging him jesus equipped us to judge activities but warned us not to judge people judge not that ye be not judged strictly speaking you re right we can t repent for somebody else for what they ve done i guess i don t think it s out of line to talk about a generalized repentence for our contribution to or participation in the sins of society or for our tacit approval by our silence of sinful attitudes or practices it may be that we re also just plain begging for mercy hoping god will withhold his hand of judgement on our whole country for the sake of a few much as abraham sought to do for the sake of lot hmmm the results there were pretty cautionary a few times lately when i ve observed some either out and out sinful activity or just some self destructive activity i ve gotten a strong impression that many folks really don t know any better christ s pity on the crowds as being like sheep without a shepherd rings true to me if these folks don t have a clue do i bear any responsibility for my not having communicated a better way worse still have i expressed judgement and disgust at their doings and thus alienated them from any positive relationship whereby i might pass along anything positive i know i ve got something to repent about on that score anyway it s a real interesting question paul marxhausen university of nebraska lincoln grace happens
soc.religion.christian	re why do people become atheists in article may athos rutgers edu muirm argon gas organpipe uug arizona edu maxwell c muir writes in all candor i would be happy to be proven wrong about believing in atheism problem is i will have to be proven wrong in mentioning some nonsense about psychology and atheism bob muir asks the following question do i sound broken to you i answer in the affirmative now this answer might sound a little intellectually dishonest to bob but i think i have been accused before of that heinous crime and am man enough to take it what thinking person has not at one time or other been accused of it is it politically correct for christians to be the only besieged group permitted the luxury of arrogance now i have a question for bob why in the world would any self respecting atheist want to subscribe to a christian news group i have a difficult enough time keeping up with it and i think i know something about the subject bob reminds me of my roommate in order to disbelieve atheism he says he will need to be proven wrong about it well i don t even waste my time trying i tell him that he ll just have to take my word for it in response he tells me he will say an atheist s prayer for me good luck bob and best regards randal lee nicholas mandock catechist gt b prism gatech edu
soc.religion.christian	re satan kicked out of heaven biblical easteee wkuvx bitnet writes hello all i have a question about satan i was taught a long time ago that satan was really an angel of god and was kicked out of heaven because he challenged god s authority the problem is i cannot find this in the bible is it in the bible if not where did it originate wondering eddie the quick answer revelation and there was war in heaven michael and his angels fought against the dragon and his angels who fought back but he the dragon was not strong enough and they lost their place in heaven the great dragon was hurled down that ancient serpent called the devil and satan who leads the whole world astray he was hurled down to the earth and his angels with him the earlier part of chapter deals very symbolically with why satan rose up in battle against michael and the good angels in the first place hope this clears it up mike walker
soc.religion.christian	re the doctrine of original sin just a quick reminder the way you are interpreting those passages is your opinion you make it sound as if your opinion is somehow an undisputable fact many would interpret the passages you cite very differently many have several of the great theologians you mentioned do that very thing these were people who had much more expertise in the interpretation of scripture than you or me or probably anyone reading this newsgroup to say that all of them are wrong and you are right is in my opinion notice those last three words coming pretty darn close to the sin of pride in the future i would suggest you not be so absolutist in your interpretations especially when contradicting highly respected doctors of christianity mike walker mdw uxa cso uiuc edu univ of illinois
soc.religion.christian	re homosexuality issues in christianity in may athos rutgers edu whitsebd nextwork rose hulman edu bryan whitsell writes any one who thinks that homosexuality and christianity are compatible should check out romans i corinthians i timothy jude ii peter gen lev to name a few of the verses that pertain to homosexuality homosexual christians have indeed checked out these verses some of them are used against us only through incredibly perverse interpretations others simply do not address the issues you would seem to be more in need of a careful and spirit led course in exegesis than most of the gay christians i know i suggest that you stop proof texting about things you know nothing about michael l siemon i say you are gods sons of the mls panix com most high all of you nevertheless or you shall die like men and fall mls ulysses att com like any prince psalm
soc.religion.christian	divorce i deleted much of the following article in order to discuss the specific issue of whether it is acceptable to divorce in article may athos rutgers edu crs carson u washington edu cliff slaughterbeck writes along the way she was married happily to a wonderful and supportive husband and gave birth to two sons still everything was not perfect for jane since she could never open up the deepest part of her soul to her husband she always found that she could be much closer to her women friends than to her husband as good and loing as a husband as he might be she struggled very much with this until at the age of she decided that she was a lesbian when she came home to announce this understanding of herself her husband told her that he had come to the same understanding several years before and was waiting for her to come to that realization in her own time her children ages and at the time were also extremely supportive of her as the youngest put it that just means that you love people very much jane and her husband agreed to divorce but remain friends and still consider each other as part of the extended family to this day one of the interesting things that jane said in this whole discussion was homosexuality is not about what goes on in the bedroom she found that she was much more able to have a deep committed relationship with a woman than a man sex in her mind is only a part of the whole relationship the key thing is how one interconnects with other people she made a specific point to say that it was not that she had never met a good man since she was married to a wonderful man for a dozen years take a few seconds and honestly ponder that thought and it s implications i have thought about the implications and it is scary we have a whole generation of families broken up because some men have decided that is is okay to leave their wives and children for the thrill of a younger more attractive woman if we accept that it is legitimate for jane to have divorced how can we not accept anyone s decision to divorce because he has found someone with whom he can have a more deep committed relationship marriage is not a state of being it is a mutual journey in life love is not a passive feeling it must be actively willed is it acceptable for an older executive to dump his wife of many years who stayed home to care for the children because he can t be happy sexually unless he is with a beautiful young blonde the real solution for both in the couple to make a renewed effort hold fast to the faith has not the lord repeatedly compared his relation to his people as a faithful and enduring husband we learn something very deep and very mystical when we marry and remain faithful through times of trial my spouse has a brain tumor that has left her partially paralyzed if it were to resume growing it is in remission thanks be to god then perhaps the time would come when we could not have sexual relations that s life the lord would certainly not give me permission to seek someone else to satisfy my needs the idea that it is alright to divorce if a couple grows apart seems to me to lead to such a monstrous destruction of the meaning of marriage that i feel we must make every effort to avoid any hint of compromise we have become so petty and small minded that some husbands are threatening to divorce their wives unless the wives lose weight i praise the lord for guiding me to marry my wife she married me anyway despite the possibility that i could have a terrible illness and it turned out that she was the one with the brain tumor but had i known i wouldn t have cared either and maybe i ll be in a car accident tomorrow and become paralyzed from the neck down a married couple should deal with these situations with the help of the lord not divorce and run away from them
soc.religion.christian	re mormon temples i was wondering if anyone knew any changes to the temple ceremony within the last fifty years also why do you think they were made revelation assimilation to mainstream christianity etc i know that the god makers was published quite a while ago could rituals have been changed since then i am also very interested in the influence of freemasonry on early mormonism especially in the smith family and in the nauvoo settlement info on any new studies would be appreciated thanks freddie eaton llcoolj athena mit edu
soc.religion.christian	re homosexuality issues in christianity can someone cite biblical references to homosexuality being immoral other than leviticus so far when i ask around here i get the verses from leviticus spouted at me but the whole rest of that book tends to be ignored by christians haven t seen any stonings in a long time later max bob muir the list was posted not long ago as i recall aside from lev commonly cited passages are the story of sodom note however that this was a homosexual rape and there s no disagreement that that is wrong i take an intermediate position on this note that sodom is referred to elsewhere in the bible for its sinfulness it doesn t seem to have been known specifically for homosexuality rather i think it was considered a cesspool of all sins however from what we know of jewish attitudes homosexuality would have contributed to the horror of the action described it almost seems to have been contrived to combine about as many forms of evil in one act as possible homosexual rape of guests who were actually angels but this story is not specifically about homosexuality in the nt the clear references are all from paul s letters in rom there is a passage that presupposes that homosexuality is an evil note that the passage isn t about homosexuality it s about idolatry homosexuality is visited on people as a punishment or at least result of idolatry there are a number of arguments over this passage it does not use the word homosexuality and it is referring to people who are by nature heterosexual practicing homosexuality so it s not what i d call an explicit teaching against all homosexuality but it does seem to support what would be a natural assumption anyway that paul shares the general negative jewish attitude towards homosexuality the other passages occur in lists of sins in i cor and i tim unfortunately it s not entirely clear what the words used here mean there have been suggestions that one has a broader meaning such as wanton and that another may be specifically male prostitute again we don t have here a precise teaching about homosexuality but it is at least weak supportive evidence that paul shared the ot s negative judgement on homosexuality jude is sometimes cited however it s probably not relevant the context in jude involves angels since those who were almost raped in sodom were angels it seems likely that strange flesh refers to intercourse with angels as you can see the nt evidence is such that people s conclusion is determined by their approach to the bible conservatives note that the passages from paul s letters imply that he accepted the ot prohibition this is enough for them to regard it as having nt endorsement liberals note that there s no specific teaching and no clear definition of what is being prohibited or why is the concern in rom the connection of homosexuality to pagan worship what exactly do the words in the lists of sins mean thus some believe it is legitimate to regard this as a attitude paul took with him from his background and not a specific teaching of the gospel this is an explosive topic which tends to result in long dissertations on the exact meaning of various greek words but it s clear to me that that s mostly irrelevant what it really comes down to is whether people are looking to the bible for law or whether they believe that such as approach is inconsistent with the gospel this appears to depend upon one s reaction to the message of the bible as a whole as well as one s perception of the needs of the church today this is a difference of approach at least as serious as the difference between protestant and catholic in the th cent and one where both sides believe that the bible is so obviously on their side that they keep thinking all they have to do is quote a few more passages and the other side will finally come to their senses that makes things very frustrating for a moderator who realizes that such an optimistic outcome is not very likely clh
soc.religion.christian	god morality and massacres a listmember d andrew killie i think wrote in response to the suggestion that genocide may sometimes be the will of god any god who works that way is indescribably evil and unworthy of my worship or faith nobuya higgy higashiyama replied as in substance did others where is your source of moral standards by which you judge god s behavior it is often argued that we have no standing by which to judge god s actions who is the clay to talk back to the potter but we find a contrary view in scripture when god proposes to destroy the city of sodom genesis abraham says suppose that there are some good men in the city will you destroy the righteous along with the wicked far be it from you lord to do such a thing shall not the judge of all the earth do right i am told that the hebrew is actually a bit stronger than this and can perhaps be better rendered dynamic equivalence as shame on you lord if you do such a thing there are those who say that the definition of good is whatever god happens to want but if that is so then the statement that god is good has no meaning it simply says that god does what he wants that being the case no one can either love or obey god because he is good the only motive left for obeying him is that he is powerful just as it makes sense to obey a dictator even when he tells you to round up all jews and exterminate them because if you defy him you might end up in the gas chamber yourself so it makes sense to obey god because he has the power to punish you if you don t this ethical theory i take to be in radical contradiction to genesis and to christianity in general any theory that makes our moral judgements worthless makes any further discussion of morality or of the goodness of god meaningless however it does not follow that our moral judgements are always infallible in particular cases still less our judgements in particular cases about the course of action most likely to achieve a good result when i read the scriptural accounts of the actions of god in history those actions often seem to me very different from what i might expect of a god who loves us and desires what is best for us moreover leaving the scriptures aside and considering the natural world i find that nature is often very different from what i might expect if it were the work of a benevolent deity origen said those who believe that the author of nature is also the author of the scriptures must expect to find in the scriptures the same sort of difficulties that they find in nature now that some such difficulties should exist is not in itself an argument against the existence power wisdom and goodness of god on the contrary their absence would be such an argument suppose that i am watching bobby fisher play chess and suppose that every time he makes a move i find myself nodding and saying good move just what i was expecting him to do same move i would have made if i were playing that would be a sign that fisher is no better a chess player than myself given that he is better i expect that at least some of his moves will have me thinking now what do suppose induced him to do that or even boy that was a real slip he s just thrown the game away similarly if god understands the workings of the universe better than i do it is to be expected that sometimes it will look to me as if he has made a mistake one difference between fisher at the chessboard and god at the controls of the universe is that i can see the end of the chess game if fisher wins i revise my earlier inference that it was carelessness that made him lose his queen moves earlier however if he loses and particularly if i can see that there was a time when he had an opportunity for a checkmate in two moves and did not take it then i know that he is not as good a player as i had thought with god on the other hand i shall not in this life see the total result of some of his actions therefore my grounds for judging that i have seen a bad move on his part must always be far shakier than my grounds for making a similar judgement about fisher in the book of genesis we read that joseph s ten older brothers who with good reason found him insufferable conspired to sell him into slavery in egypt there he eventually became viceroy and when there was a famine in canaan he was able to provide for his family when his brothers nervously apologized he told them do not worry you meant to do me evil but god turned it into good i once heard a rabbi speak on this text he said the history of the jews is largely a history of events that look like catastrophes that threaten the continued survival of the religion or the people or both but amazingly those events turn out to be the saving of the jews and of judaism the sale of joseph by his brothers looked like the breakup of the family but in fact it ended with a reconciliation of the quarrel between them the famine that drove the family out of canaan looked like a misfortune for them but in fact if they had stayed in canaan they would almost certainly have intermarried with the canaanites and been assimilated into their culture their oppression by the egyptians a few generations after their arrival in egypt again looked like a disaster but god used it to bring them out of egypt and into the promised land here the people built a temple and regularly offered sacrifices but the babylonians captured jerusalem and judea destroyed temple and city and countryside and deported most of the people to babylon you might have thought that that would be the end of the people and the religion but it was not living in canaan the people had been under constant danger of assimilation again and again they had turned from the worship of the lord to the worship of the canaanite fertility cults with their ritual prostitution and ritual human sacrifice the babylonian captivity put a stop to that never again did the jews show any interest in polytheism or idolatry neither the worship of the canaanites mor that of the babylonians ever again had a foothold among them nor is that all judaism had been in danger of becoming simply a system of sacrifices and temple observances the only prescribed acts of worship consisted of coming to jerusalem every so often and offering a sacrifice during the captivity with the temple gone the jews invented the synagogue a place of meeting for reading and study and discussion of the scriptures they came to realize clearly what they were in danger of forgetting while they continued to live in judea that god is not simply a local or tribal deity not just the controller of the land of canaan or the patron of the jewish people but the creator of the world and the ruler and judge of all humans everywhere time passed and the babylonian empire was replaced by that of the persians and then that of the greeks or rather the macedonians the ruler antiochus epiphanes was determined to stamp out judaism and to this end he made the reading and the study of the torah punishable by death again one might think that this would be the end of judaism but it was not the people met for worship and instead of reading the torah portion appointed for the day they would read some passage from the prophets that had a similar theme and then discuss that before this time the torah the so called five books of moses genesis exodus leviticus numbers and deuteronomy were the only books read and studied in the synagogue if it had not been for antiochus the books of the prophets would probably have been forgotten altogether his hatred for judaism saved them other examples here omitted for brevity s sake some of you may remember that julie andrews first became famous as eliza doolittle in the stage production of my fair lady when warner brothers undertook to make a movie of it everyone expected that julie who had been so magnificent on stage would play the same role in the movie instead the studio decided to go with an established screen star and cast audrey hepburn julie andrews was naturally crushed but she later realized that if she had played the screen role she would have been type cast for life as an elize doolittle type it would have been a disaster for her as it was walt disney offered her the role of mary poppins and she won an oscar for it at the presentation she stood there smiling and looking at walt disney she said and now my special thanks to the man who made all this possible jack warner it was the most memorable line of the evening in a similar spirit we jews might thank the men who in the providence of god have preserved judaism and kept it alive to this day beginning with joseph s brothers and continuing with two pharaohs with nebuchadnezzar with antiochus epiphanes after the formal meeting had broken up one woman came up to him privately and said you were talking about the holocaust weren t you he answered if that is an example that came to your mind then you are right i was talking about it to you but i would not talk about it to everyone for not everyone can bear it i assume that he meant that without the holocaust there would have been no state of israel someone hearing the rabbi s lecture might leap to the conclusion that god is dependent on the wickedness of men to accomplish his purposes or at least that the rabbi thought so he might then go on to suppose that the wickedness is in fact god s doing that he stirred up joseph s brothers to a murderous hate against him and that when the israelites were in egypt god hardened pharaoh s heart so that he oppressed the people and would not let them go and this raises questions about how an action can be considered wicked and at the same time be considered something that god has brought about i suggest another way of looking at it consider a sculptor who has a log of wood from which he proposes to carve a statue but the log instead of having a smooth even grain throughout has a large knot that spoils the appearance of the surface the sculptor considers the wood for a while and then carves a statue that features the knot that makes that particular interruption in the grain and color of the wood correspond to some feature of the statue so that observers will say how fortunate the sculptor was in finding a piece of wood with a knot like that in just the right place its presence is the crowning touch the thing that makes the statue a great work of art in reality the knot far from being what the sculptor was looking for was a challenge to his skill if the wood had not contained that flaw he would still have made a great work of art but a different one so if joseph s brothers had not sold him god would still have brought about his purposes for the jewish people but he would have done so in another manner if judas had not betrayed jesus if caiaphas and his fellow leaders had not rejected jesus but had rather acknowledged him as the annointed of god if pilate had followed his conscience rather than his fears and had set jesus free it might appear that there would have been no crucifixion and therefore no redemption and therefore no salvation not so god did not need judas sin to redeem us if judas had done right then god in christ would still have reconciled the world to himself we do not know how just as we do not know how michelangelo would have painted the sistine chapel if its interior had instead been shaped like grand central station and just as we do not know how bobby fisher would have won his fourth game agianst spassky if spassky had refused the exchange of bishops and had attacked fisher s knight instead don t bother to look up the game in question i am making up this example but the point is none the less valid thus we may say both that god used say the cowardice of pilate to accomplish his purposes and that the said cowardice was not god s doing and that pilate would not have thwarted god s plans by behaving justly and courageously what then are we to make of the place where god says to moses i will harden pharaoh s heart so that he will not let the people go some christians have taken this to mean that pharaoh was a puppet with god pulling the strings and that his stubbornness and cruelty were not his own work but the work of god in him i suppose rather that what god was telling moses was something like this if you see that pharaoh is not willing to let the people go do not be discouraged or suppose that the situation is out of my control my purposes will not be thwarted if pharaoh chooses to hear you and let the people go well and good if he does not i will fit his resistance into my plans and fit it so perfectly that future historians and theologians will suppose that i would have been thrown for a loss if pharaoh had obeyed me to return to the question that started this all off is it possible that the serbs in slaughtering the moslems of bosnia are instruments of god s will first point what they are doing is wrong just as what joseph s brothers did was wrong just as what judas did was wrong they intend it for evil if god somehow brings good out of it that does not make them any less subject to just condemnation and punishment second point of course god will bring good out of it but not the same good that he would have brought if the serbians had refrained from the sins of robbery and rape and murder nor does the good he purposes excuse us from the duty of doing what is right yours james kiefer
soc.religion.christian	re question from an agnostic hi damon no matter what system or explanation of creation you wish to accept you always have to start with one of two premises creation from nothing or creation from something there are no other alternatives and if we accept one or the other of those two premises then again there are two alternatives either creation was random or was according to some plan if it was random i am unable to accept that the complex nature of our world with interrelated interdependent organisms and creatures could exist as they do therefore i am left with creation under the control of an intelligence capable of devising such a scheme i call that intelligence god i also prefer the creatio ex nihilo rather than from chaos as it is cleaner there is obviously no way to prove either or neither we are and we must have come from somewhere choose whatever explanation you feel most comfortable with damon you are the one who has to live with your choice shalom len howard
soc.religion.christian	re christianity and repeated lives in article may athos rutgers edu danc procom com daniel cossack writes jek cu nih gov writes the apostle paul romans points out that god chose jacob rather than esau if we admit the possibility that they had lived previous lives and that in accordance with the asiatic idea of karma and following romans to as it is written jacob have i loved but esau have i hated how could god have loved and hated in the past tense those that are not yet born neither having done good or evil woah the context is about god s calling out a special people the jews to carry the promise to read the meaning as literal people is to miss paul s entire point i d be glad to send anyone more detailed explanations of this passage if interested ted kalivoda tedr athena cs uga edu university of georgia athens institute of higher ed
soc.religion.christian	deuterocanonicals esp sirach dave davis writes let my state my point as provocatively as possible after going through several study bibles i m leaning heavily towards the assertion that sirach the wisdom of ben sira or ecclesiasticus is directly referenced by james in fact i think sirach is more directly referenced by james than job or ruth is referenced in any nt verse i ve seen good point the new testament does not quote ezra nehemiah esther ruth job ecclesiastes or song of songs just as it does not quote from the deuterocanon but if the non quotation of the former does not disqualify them neither does the non quotation of the later and the wisodm of solomon was quite clearly an influence on st paul especially in the letter to the romans cf especially romans and wisdom stuff deleted i think everyone would agree that principles that cannot be consistently applied are not very useful as principles so if we are to exclude them not accord them the authority of scripture we would appear to require other reasons what might these reasons be tradition always a fav with episcop tradition is equivocal on this subject sirach i believe is in vaticanus sinaiticus i don t know if it is listed in the muratorian canon the oldest list i know of sirach and the others are discussed by the fathers as scripture but not unanimously true not all accepted them as scripture though niether were all the books of the new testament so accepted which puts to the lie the whole argument of the books being excluded because they were debated and not universally accepted hebrews the apocalypse peter esther and others were debated at various times but eventually retained as for the codexes you mention both vaticanus and sinaitcus include the deuterocanon bothe of the new and old testaments and vaticanus i think inlcudes clement the shepard of hermas and the epistle of baranabas as for the muratorian canon it deals with the new testament only though it is very valuable in its witness to those books my interim conclusion is that protestant exclusion of at least one of these writings is one of those traditions of men one hears of so often they were excluded during the reformation and that appears to be the reason many people continue to exclude them any takers i can be reasonable if all else fails show me where i m wrong you re not wrong it is a tradition of men to exlcude them as i will explain below that nothing be read in the church under the nmae of divine scripture except the canonical scriptures and the canoncial scriptures are genesis exodus leviticus numbers deuteronomy joshua judges ruth four books of kingdoms being samuel and kings two books of paralpomenon being chronicles job the psalter of david the five books of solomon being proverbs ecclesiastes song of songs wisdom of solomon and misatributed to him the wisdom of jesus son of sirach the books of the twelve minor prophets isaiah jeremiah being jeremiah the lamentations baruch and the letter all of which were formerly counted as one ezekiel daniel tobit judith esther two books of ezra being ezra and nehemiah two books of maccabees and of the new testament four books of the gospel one book of the acts of the apostles thirteen letters of paul the apostle one letter of the same to the hebrews two of peter the apostle three of john one of the apostle jude one of the apostle james one book of the apocalypse of john council of hippo statute ad this same list was promulgated again at the third council of carthage ad and at the sixth council of carthage ad at which council the same list was enumerated with the words because we have recieved from the fathers that these are the books to be read in the church which ought to quiet those who assert in the name of holy scripture we do understand those books of whose authority there was never any doubt in the church as the episcopal church does in removing the deuterocanon from the realm of scripture though the episcopalians hold them in high regard and read them in the church they are not counted as scripture by them and may not be used to prove dogma the lutherans hold out similarly earlier mention of the so called apocrypha as divine scripture can also be found and below i inlcude only a portion of the quotes calling it divine scripture that could be found among the writings of the fathers and this is the reason why the law of the old testament is reckoned as consisting of twenty two books so that they may correspond to the number of letters in the hebrew alphabet it is to be noted also that by adding to these tobias and judith there are twenty four books corresponding to the number of letters used by the greeks st hillary of poitiers commentaries on the psalms prologue ad the twenty two books according to the hebrews are jeremiah with lamentations and the letter reckoned as one and also there is maccabees origen commentaries on the psalms psalm ad divine scripture addressing itself to those who love themselves and to the boastful says most excellently baruch follows st clement of alexandria the instuctor of children ad i learned accurately the books of the old testament proverbs of solomon and also wisdom st melito of sardes fragment found in eusebius history of the church and dating from crica ad book it is likewise decreed now indeed we must treat of the divine scriptures what the universal catholic church accepts and what she must shun the list of the old testament wisdom one book ecclesiasticus one book tobit one book judith one book of maccabees two books st damasus i pope the decree of damsus section ad i would think this enough though more can be shown that the church has always accepted the deutero canon though parts have been disputed by various persons for if disputes involving the new testament deutero canon does not disqulaify those books i e hebrews james peter john jude revelation in protestant eyes than neither should it disqulaify the old testament books and i must point out that the jews only drew up their canon in ad years after the founding of the christian religion upon the cross why should we adhere to a canon that was drawn up by the faithless in reaction to the chrsitian use of the greek septuagint which includes the deutero canon as early as ad st justin had already accused the jews of mutilating the canon of scripture by their removal of certain books protestants apparently prefer to think that god s revelation was limited by a decree of the jews in the ordering of their the jews faithless canon and that he could not use other people like the apostles in drawing up the canon the apostles were most certain users of the septuagint as some of the old testament quotes use the wording of the septuagint and not the hebrew and the septuagint includes the deuterocanon
soc.religion.christian	re deuterocanonicals esp sirach wagner grace math uh edu david wagner writes the deutero canonical books were added much later in the church s history they do not have the same spiritual quality as the rest of scripture i do not believe the church that added these books was guided by the spirit in so doing and that is where this sort of discussion ultimately ends david h wagner a confessional lutheran now thank we all our god whoah whoah whoah whoah what that last paragraph just about killed me the deuterocanonicals have always been accepted as inspired scripture by the catholic church which has existed much longer than any protestant church out there it was martin luther who began hacking up the bible and deciding to remove certain books not the fact that the catholic church decided to add some much later that is the reason for the difference between catholic and protestant bibles sorry for the tone but that comment really irked me mike walker mdw uxa cso uiuc edu univ of illinois
soc.religion.christian	re should christians fight justifiable war in article gideon otago ac nz gideon king writes i posted this a couple of weeks ago and it doesn t seem to have appeared on the newsgroup and i haven t had a reply from the moderator we were having intermittent problems with our mail at the time please excuse me if you have seen this before should christians fight last week alastair posted some questions about fighting and whether there are such things as justifiable wars i have started looking into these things and have jotted down my findings as i go i haven t answered all his questions yet and i know what i have here is on a slightly different tack but possibly i ll be able to get into it more deeply later and post some more info soon may i suggest the book ethics by dr norm geisler of dallas theological seminary in it he goes over all the arguments pro and con and in between and comes up with a very reasonable answer if i have time and there is enough interest i may post his position jon noring charter member infj club if you re dying to know what infj means be brave e mail me i ll send info jon noring noring netcom com jkn international ip fred s gourmet chocolate carlton place phone chips world s best livermore ca v mail who are you read alt psychology personality that s where the action is
soc.religion.christian	re is ot valid peir yuan yeh asks i wonder if the ot is not exactly like jewish history are they the same or part of them are the same how about torah are the first five books of ot as the same as torah yes yes and yes jewish history as recorded in the old testament and as shown by archaeology are the same kings revivals temples and all the torah as far as i know is the five books of moses then come the prophets all the prophets plus joshua judges samuel kings and the writings psalms proverbs lamentations ruth esther ezra nehemiah ecclesiates song of songs chronicles job and the veracity of isaiah which you quoted to your moslem friend is quite well known a complete manuscript exists that dates back to past bc and is kept in a museum in israel it was found among the dead sea scrolls which greatly enhanced our knowledge of the veracity of the old testament as they date back to around the time of christ whereas before the oldest complete manuscript in hebrew was from around ad your moslem friend is sorely mistaken but understandably so if jesus was crucified and atoned for our sins he must have been god for only the death of god could atone for the sins of all humanity and as isaiah predicts the messiah will be called the mighty god and if he was god then he must have rose for as st paul wrote it was not possible that death could hold him and if jesus rose from the dead your moslem friend would have little reason to be a moslem which is why he denies the authenticity of the old testament andy byler
soc.religion.christian	re revelations babylon rex rexlex fnal fnal gov writes it is also of interest to note that in on the occasion of a jubilee pope leo the th had a medallion cast with his own image on one side and on the other side the church of rome symbolized as a woman holding in her left hand a cross and in her right a cup with legend around her sedet super universum the whole world is her seat you read more into the medal than it is worth the woman is the church catholics have always called our church holy mother church and our mother an example would be from st cyprian of carthage who wrote in ad can anyone have god for his father who does not have the church for his mother hence the image of the church as a woman holding a cross and a cup which tell of the crucifxition of our lord and of the power of his blood the grail legend but also more significantly it shows that this is the cup of the new covenant in my blood which shall be shed for you and for many luke the cup represents the new covenant and holds the blood of redemption the fact that the woman is holding both and is said to have the whole world for her seat is that the catholic church is catholic that is universal and is found throughout the world and the church shows the crucifixtion and applies the blood of redemption to all mankind by this spread of hers thorugh which the holy sacrafice of the mass can be said and celebrated in all the nations as malachi predicted in malachi from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the gentiles and everywhere there is sacrafice and there is offered to my name a clean oblation for my name is great among the gentiles says the lord of hosts and so we acknowledge what st paul wrote for as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup you show the lord s death until he comes corinthians you are quite right about the identification of babylon the great mother of all harlots with rome i think we simply disagree as to what time period of rome the apostle john is talking about andy byler
soc.religion.christian	re revelations babylon hal heydt writes that was only the fall of the western empire the eastern empire continued for another years and a key element in it s fall was the christian sack of constantinople note that i said the fall of rome not of the empire the roman empire lasted until with its transfered capital in constantinople the main reason for it s fall was not so much the sack of constantinople by the men of the th crusade who were not christians they had been excommunicated down to the last man after attacking the christian city of zara in croatia but rather the disastorous defeat in the battle of mazinkert after the turks breached the frontier it was only a matter of time before the empire fell the inability of the empire to hold onto the rim of anatolia with the ottomans and rum seljuks in the middle should be quite obvious to any student of history the sack of constantinople only hastened the inevitable along for if the greeks had wanted to save their empire why would they not cooperate with the crusaders when they came to do battle with the saracens in the st rd crusades because of their obstinacy over cooperating with people they considered heretics even though those heretics were fighting for the cause of the empire and christendom in doing battle with the turkish hordes in anatolia edessa lebanon palastine and syria the some hordes who were to later sack constantinople and overrun a third of europe the balkans hungary the ukraine the caucasus etc andy byler
soc.religion.christian	re translations in article may athos rutgers edu ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes which version of the bible do you consider to be the most accurate translation well knowing greek and hebrew i m probably not as picky about translations as i would be if english translations were my only source of information but any verse that comes out substantially different in different trans lations is almost certainly unclear in the original it is very bad practice to shop for a translation that fits your own doctrinal positions personally i still like the rsv nrsv and nasv are also very good i have a strong preference for editions that do not indent the beginning of each verse as if verses were paragraphs the verse numbering is a relatively modern addition and should not be given undue prominence michael a covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu the university of georgia phone athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi
soc.religion.christian	re the doctrine of original sin but haven t all sinned and come short of the glory of god romans those that cite this scripture to claim that even babes require baptism neglect that sin is not imputed when there is no law romans therefore until someone is capable of comprehending god s laws they are not accountable for living them they are in the book of life and are not removed until they can make a conscious decision to disobey god a idler if babies are not supposed to be baptised then why doesn t the bible ever say so it never comes right and says only people that know right from wrong or who are taught can be baptised what christ did say was i solemly assure you no one can enter god s kingdom without being born of water and spirit do not be surprised that i tell you you must all be begotten from above could this be because everyone is born with original sin mike
soc.religion.christian	re monophysites and mike walker nabil ayoub writes as a final note the oriental orthodox and eastren orthodox did sign a common statement of christology in which the heresey of monophysitism was condemned so the coptic orthodox church does not believe in monophysitism sorry what does the coptic church believe about the will and energy of christ were there one or were there two i e human and divine wills and energies in him also what is the objection ot the copts with the pope of rome i e why is there a coptic catholic church do you reject the supreme jurisdiction of the rd sucessor of st peter who blessed st john mark bishop of alexandria was translator for and his predecessors or his infallibility or what other things perhaps andy byler
soc.religion.christian	re serbian genocide work of god vera shanti noyes writes this is what indicates to me that you may believe in predestination am i correct i do not believe in predestination i believe we all choose whether or not we will accept god s gift of salvation to us again fundamental difference which can t really be resolved of course i believe in predestination it s a very biblical doctrine as romans shows among other passages furthermore the church has always taught predestination from the very beginning but to say that i believe in predestination does not mean i do not believe in free will men freely choose the course of their life which is also affected by the grace of god however unlike the calvinists and jansenists i hold that grace is resistable otherwise you end up with the idiocy of denying the universal saving will of god timothy for god must give enough grace to all to be saved but only the elect who he foreknew are predestined and receive the grace of final perserverance which guarantees heaven this does not mean that those without that grace can t be saved it just means that god foreknew their obstinacy and chose not to give it to them knowing they would not need it as they had freely chosen hell people who are saved are saved by the grace of god and not by their own effort for it was god who disposed them to himself and predestined them to become saints but those who perish in everlasting fire perish because they hardened their heart and chose to perish thus they were deserving of god s punishment as they had rejected their creator and sinned against the working of the holy spirit yes it is up to god to judge but he will only mete out that punishment at the last judgement well i would hold that as god most certainly gives everybody some blessing for what good they have done even if it was only a little for those he can t bless in the next life he blesses in this one and those he will not punish in the next life will be chastised in this one or in purgatory for their sins every sin incurs some temporal punishment thus god will punish it unless satisfaction is made for it cf samuel david s sin of adultery and murder were forgiven but he was still punished with the death of his child and i need not point out the idea of punishment because of god s judgement is quite prevelant in the bible sodom and gommorrah moses barred from the holy land the slaughter of the cannanites annias and saphira jerusalem in ad etc if jesus stopped the stoning of an adulterous woman perhaps this is not a good parallel but i m going to go with it anyway why should we not stop the murder and violation of people who may or may not be more innocent we should stop the slaughter of the innocent cf proverbs but does that mean that christians should support a war in bosnia with the u s or even the u n involved i do not think so but i am an isolationist and disagree with foreign adventures in general but in the case of bosnia i frankly see no excuse for us getting militarily involved it would not be a just war blessed after all are the peacemakers was what our lord said not the interventionists our actions in bosnia must be for peace and not for a war which is unrelated to anything to justify it for us andy byler
soc.religion.christian	re the doctrine of original sin eugene bigelow writes doesn t the bible say that god is a fair god sic if this is true how can this possibly be fair to the infants what do you mean fair god is just giving to everyone what they deserve as all infants are in sin from the time of conception cf romans psalm they cannot possibly merit heaven and as purgatory is for the purging of temporal punishment and venial sins it is impossible that origianl sin can be forgiven hence the unbaptized infants are cut off from the god against whom they with the whole of the human race except mary have sinned which is why jesus said truly truly i say to you no one can enter the kingdom of god unless he is born of water and spirit which is the true meaning of born again john thus as infants are in sin it is very fair for them to be cut off from god and exlcuded from heaven as st augustine said i did not invent original sin which the catholic faith holds from ancient time but you who deny it without a doubt are a follower of a new heresy de nuptiis lib c andy byler
soc.religion.christian	re the obvious isn t politically correct the last state church was in massachusetts sam adams the patriot brewmaster during his tenure as governor after the revolutionary war got it passed i believe it was eliminated around dan
talk.politics.guns	re gun control was re we re mad as hell at the tv news hambidge bms com wrote in article c psog c magpie linknet com manes magpie linknet com steve manes writes rate per capita rate the uk is more dangerous though you may be less likely to be killed by a handgun the average individual citizen in the uk is twice as likely to be killed by whatever means as the average swiss would you feel any better about being killed by means other than a handgun i wouldn t what an absurd argument switzerland is one fifth the size of the uk with one eigth as many people therefore at any given point on swiss soil you are more likely to be crow bait more importantly you are x as likely to be killed by the next stranger approaching you on a swiss street than in the uk you are betraying your lack of understanding about rate versus total number rates are expressed often as population therefore if a place had deaths and a population of the rate would be a place that had deaths and a population of would hav a rate of the former has a higher rate the latter a higher total you are less likely to die in the latter simple enuff for chrissakes take out your calculator and work out the numbers here i ve preformatted them for you to make it easier handgun homicides population switzerland uk and then tell me again how switzerland is safer with a more liberal handgun law than the uk is without by rate or total number your choice stephen manes manes magpie linknet com manes and associates new york ny usa o o
talk.politics.guns	re gun control was re we re mad as hell at the tv news jim de arras jmd cube handheld com wrote last year the us suffered almost wrongful or accidental deaths by handguns alone fbi statistics in the same year the uk suffered such deaths scotland yard statistics the population of the uk is about that of the us weighted for population the us has x as many handgun related deaths as the uk and no the brits don t make up for this by murdering x as many people with baseball bats you just can t compare this way all homicides must be shown per capita not just handguns the availability of them in the usa makes them the preferred murder weapon but ban them and some other weapon will step in as the favorite as a favorite sure as lethal not likely a study of violence in chicago produced this table percentage of reported gun and knife attacks resulting in death weapon deaths as percentage of attacks knives total attacks guns total attacks source firearms and violence in american life it might be contended that if gun murderers were deprived of guns that they would find a way to kill as often with knives if this were so knife attacks in cities where guns were widely used in homicide would be expected to show a low fatality rate and knife attacks in cities where guns were not so widely used like vancouver would show a higher fatality rate but the nat l commission on the causes and prevention of violence task force analyzed the data and found this not to be the case it appeared to them that as the number of knife attacks increased in relation to the number of firearms attacks which presumably happened where guns were less available to assailants the proportion of fatal knife attacks did not increase relative to the proportion of gun attacks in fact the reverse was true what was found was that most homicides did not show a determination on the part of the assailant to kill fatalities caused by knife tended to show a single mindedness on the part of the assailant to do grave physical injury multiple stabs wounds wounds concentrated about the head neck and chest etc most gun homicides did not show this pattern rather more fatal attacks were committed during a moment of rage and not the focused intent to kill the victim source report on firearms and violence then since england usa my ancestors left because of the oppression you must compare england before strict gun laws to england after strict gun laws to be able to draw any meaning at all england has essentially legalized drugs so there are no drug gangs battling for turf etc there if you drop out the drug related killings here the usa would look a whole lot more peaceful there are a lot of factors which make a difference actually i m not fond of making any kind of social parallels between europeans and americans there are more cultural beahvioral and economic differences between us than similarities i just sort of found myself backed into that corner over the last couple of weeks i don t think we could ever attain the low levels of european violent crime here in the us whether we banned guns or required every law abiding citizen to carry a loaded uzi on the other hand we can draw lessons from neighbors who are more culturally similar namely the canadians in fact an exhaustive seven year study has already been done of the respective crime rates of vancouver british columbia and seattle washington cities with roughly the same population urban economy geography and crime but with decidedly different approaches to gun control in seattle handguns may be purchased legally for self defense after a day waiting period a permit can be obtained to carry a concealed weapon the recreational use of handguns is minimally restricted in vancouver self defense is not considered a valid or legal reason to purchase a handgun concealed weapons are not permitted recreational uses of handguns target shooting collecting are regulated by the province purchase of a handgun requires a restricted weapons permit a permit to carry may be obtained in order to transport the weapon to licensed shooting clubs handguns transported by vehicle must be stored in the trunk in a locked box in short gun control but not unreasonably so both cities aggressively enforce their gun laws convictions for gun related offenses carry similar penalties the researchers studied all cases of robbery assault simple and aggravated burglary and homicides occurring in seattle and vancouver from to in defining the cases they used the same standard the fbi s unified crime report results during the seven year study the annual rate of robbery in seattle was found to be only slightly higher than that in vancouver burglaries occurred at nearly identical rates assaults were recorded in seattle versus in vancouver the risk of being a victim of a simple assault in seattle was found to be only slightly higher than vancouver and the risk of aggravated assault was also slightly higher however when aggravated assaults were subdivided by weapon and the mechanism of assault a clear pattern emerged although both cities reported nearly identical rates of aggravated assault involving knives and other dangerous weapons firearms were far more likely to be used in seattle in fact times as often over the seven year study homicides occurred in seattle per vs homicides in vancouver per after adjustment for differences in age and sex among the populations the relative risk of being a victim of homicide in seattle as compared to vancouver was found to be when homicides were subdivided by the mechanism of death the rate of homicide by knives and other weapons excluding firearms in seattle was found to be almost identical to that in vancouver virtually all of the increased risk of death in seattle was due to a more than fivefold higher rate of homicide by firearms handguns accounted for roughly of homicides involving firearms handguns were times more likely to be used in homicides in seattle than in vancouver the authors of the report also investigated legally justifiable homicides self defense only such homicides occurred during the seven year study of which were committed by police only cases of civilians acting in self defense occurrred in seattle and in vancouver only involved firearms after excluding these cases there was virtually no impact on these earlier findings this is i feel a very fair report one might even make the argument that it is biased against canada as a whole because vancouver reports annual rates of homicide two to three times that of ottawa calgary and toronto while seattle reports annual homicide rates only half to two thirds that of nyc chicago los angeles and houston critics of handgun control always argue that limited legal access to handguns will have little effect on the rates of homicide because persons intent on killing others will only try harder to acquire a gun or will kill by other means this report shows differently if the rate of homicide in a community were influenced more by the strength of intent than by the availability of weapons we could expect the rate of homicides by weapons other than guns to be higher in vancouver than in seattle however during the study interval vancouver s rate of homicide by weapons other than guns was not significantly higher than that in seattle suggesting that few would be assailants switched to homicide by other methods as well ready access to handguns for self defense by law abiding citizens was not endorsed in this report although seattle did experience a higher rate of firearm death for self defense these cases accounted for less than of the homicides in both cities during the course of the study period and as was reported seattle apparently didn t enjoy relief from any crime category over vancouver because citizens may legally arm themselves for self defense heavily quoted source handgun regulation crime assaults and homicide a tale of two cities john h sloan arthur l kellerman donald t reay james a ferris thomas koepsall frederick p rivara charles rice laurel gray and james logerfo stephen manes manes magpie linknet com manes and associates new york ny usa o o
talk.politics.guns	re gun control was re we re mad as hell at the tv news steve kao k hprnd rose hp com wrote frank crary posted sure but the difference in per capita crime rates predates the gun control laws the homicide rate in england was a tenth that of america back when anyone in england could buy a gun without any paperwork at all steve manes asks got a citation for this colin greenwood from scotland yard did a study that showed that gun control has had no effect on crime or murder rates in the uk his book firearms controls has been published in london by keegan paul name may be misspelled others dispute that like richard hofstadter america as a gun culture and newton and zimring s firearms and violence in american life but again statistics between too dissimilar cultures are difficult to quantify i don t know how anyone can state that gun control could have no effect on homicide rates there were over accidental handgun homicides in america in most with licensed weapons more american children accidentally shot other children last year than all the handgun homicides in great britain source national safety council please no dictionary arguments about rates vs total numbers okay they re offered for emphasis not comparison if mr greenwood believes that brits are much too sober and coordinated to make such mistakes i d like to introduce him to my friend amanda from brighton i used to have some pretty nice crystal in my place until she moved in i ve gotten used to the snide comments from guests about the clown motif on my rubber wine glasses stephen manes manes magpie linknet com manes and associates new york ny usa o o
talk.politics.guns	vancouver seattle study critiques open letter by dr paul h blackman research coordinator for nra ila nra official journal dear sir by now we are used to the new england journal of medicine s publication of small scale studies related to firearms from which conclusions are drawn which are quantum leaps from the data followed by announcements of momentus scientific findings these are regularly released to the press without the caveats which riddle the conclusory paragraphs and often accompanied by an editorial calling attention to the findings generally while they at least present a few interesting data however meaningless the studies misinterpret statistics and ignore or belittle serious studies by criminologists the latest effort handgun regulations crime assaults and homicide a tale of two cities by j h sloan et al with the accompanying editorial firearms injuries a call for science by two employees of the centers for disease control november however is an insult to the intelligence of any serious scholar in any field and have so few data and so many flaws that i feel compelled to write at some length to call attention to various major and minor failings in no particular order the authors misleadingly cite wright et al ref to support the statement that some have argued that restricting access to handguns could substantially reduce our annual rate of homicide wright et al in fact studied and rejected that contention the authors pretended that vancouver and seattle are very similar cities with similar economic circumstances histories demographic characteristics and the like in fact the cities are very different with very different demographic characteristics which appear to explain completely the higher homicide rate in seattle both cities are over three forths non hispanic white and the non hispanic white homicide rates are reported to be the same in seattle and vancouver it is the different back grounds problems circumstances and behaviors of the various ethnic minorities which explain the difference in homicide the authors pretend they are evaluating canada s gun law compared to washington state s but they do not examine at all the situation in vancouver prior to the gun law taking effect in as it happens in the three years prior to that vancouver averaged homicides per year one eighth involving handguns ref and in the seven years of the nejm article there were homicides per year one eigth involving handguns surely even the medical profession recognizes that one must look to see the prior situation was before concluding that a change made a difference would a physician conclude that a patient was benefiting from eating oat bran muffin each day for seven years because his cholesterol level was without at least seeing if it was before he started the regimen the authors pick two medium sized cities to evaluate a national gun law nothing can be learned from such a tiny and arbitrarily selected sample seattle appears to have been selected because it was convienient for the authors rather than for any scientific reason would physicians call something a scientific study which involved one experimental subject and one dissimilar control had different arbitrarily selected cities been chosen opposite scientific conclusions would follow vancouver s homicide rate exceeds that of such wild west cities in texas as el paso corpus christi austen and in colorado colorado springs ref the authors fail to clearly demonstrate that firearms or handguns are far more commonly owned in seattle than in vancouver they use two surrogate approaches in pretending to study the availability of firearms handguns the first is an apples and oranges effort to compare the number of carry permits in seattle to the number of registered handguns in vancouver but the number clearly understates the number of handguns in seattle and counts primarily protective handgun owners the second however tells nothing about the number of handguns in vancouver and counts non protective handguns for the most part where is it difficult to obtain handguns legally for protection registration figures are meaningless there are registered handguns in new york city new york daily news sept comparing the two that method suggests about handguns per population in new york city compared to in vancouver meaning vancouver has a greater prevalence of weapons than new york city the second method of measuring gun density is cook s gun prevalence index a previously validated measure of intercity differences but the validation was by cook of his own theory ref normally second opinions are sought from a different doctor more significantly the cook index is based on the average of the percentage of firearms involvement in suicide and homicide so the authors are basically taking a measure of misuse unsurprisingly gun misuse in homicide in seattle in vancouver is related to gun misuse in homicide plus suicide divided by two in seattle in vancouver the authors are not measuring the relative avail ability of firearms or of handguns in seattle and vancouver the authors misstate the laws of both washington and canada they neglect to mention the significant fact that washington has a waiting period and background check prior to the purchase of a handgun and that provisions exist in canadian law for owning and carrying handguns for personal protection the authors also make it appear that it is more difficult to get a handgun legally in canada than is actually the case the authors ignore all other factors which might explain the differences in crime rate beyond some vague mention of the penalities provided by law and the roughest of estimates of clearence for one particular offense homicide involving a firearm there is no measure of the differences in the number of law enforcement officers their aggressiveness in making arrests for gun law violations in the two jurisdictions arrest rates for other offenses conviction rates actual sentences imposed for gun related crimes violent crimes without guns or gun law violations or incarceration rates whereas social scientists would attempt to measure and hold for such differences the authors of the nejm tale of two cities fail even to mention most factors related to crime control the authors dismiss claims that handguns are an effective means for protection unless the criminal is killed such is not the case criminologists ref have found that almost americans annually use handguns for protection from criminals and that using a gun for protection reduces the liklihood that a crime rape robbery assault will be completed by the criminal and reduces the likelihood of injury to the victim it is interesting nonetheless that the authors reported the same number four of civilian justifiable homicides without firearms in each city but that less restrictive seattle accounted for of the reported civilian justifiable homicides involving firearms the centers for disease control which funded the study editorially praised the paper ref saying it applied scientific methods to examine a focus of contention betweeb advocates of stricter regulation of firearms particularly handguns there is nothing in the paper which could possibly be mistaken for scientific methods by a sociologists or criminologists the vancouver seattle study is the equivolent of testing an experimental drug to control hypertension by finding two ordinary looking middle class white males one aged and the other and without first taking their vital signs administering the experimental drug to the year old while giving the year old a placebo then taking their blood pressure and on finding the younger man had a lower blood pressure announcing in a special article a new medical breakthrough it would be nice to think that such a study would neither be funded by the cdc or printed by the nejm since the longstanding anti gun biases of the nejm and the cdc make them willing to present shoddy research as scientific breakthroughs in special articles and editorials relating to firearms we are obligated to correct the record by notifying the news media and those with congressional and executive oversight over the activities of the centers for disease control about the distortions contained in handgun regulations crime assaults and homicides a tale of two cities and firearm injuries a call for science clearly all scientific standards go by the wayside whenever the cdc and the new england journal of medicine seize an opportunity to attack firearms ownership in america references wright jd et al weapons crime and violence in america a literature review and research agenda washington d c department of justice scarff e evaluation of the canadian gun control legislation final report ottawa ministry of the solicitor general of canada p department of justice federal bureau of investigation crime in the united states uniform crime reports washington d c government printing office cook pj the role of firearms in violent crime in wolfgang m weiner na eds criminal violence beverly hills calif sage pp kleck g crime control through the private use of armed force social problems ziegenhagen ea brosnan d victim responses to robbery and crime control policy criminology lizotte aj determinants of completeing rape and assault journal of quantitative criminology sayles sl kleck g rape and resistance paper at the american society of criminology convention chicago mercy ja houk vn firearm injuries a call for science nejm guns and sputter by james d wright from july issue of reason free minds free markets someone once wrote statistics are like a bikini what they real is suggestive but what they conceal is vital the problem is demonstrated by the most recent entry in a long line of scientific research purporting to show a causal link between gun availability and homicide funded by the federal government and published last year in the new england journal of medicine the study compared homicide rates in seattle and vancouver and suggested that a handgun ban may reduce the rate of homicide in a community the nine medical doctors who published handgun regulations crime assaults and homicide essentially reasoned in three steps despite many historical social and demographic similarities vancouver has a markedly lower homicide rate because its stricter gun regulations make guns less available the second step in their reasoning seems indisputable the overall homicide rate in seattle for the period was per popuation compared with in vancouver homicide is definitely more common in seattle the question then becomes why the authors present a believable although not entirely accurate case to support the notion as claimed in the third step of their reasoning that vancouver s handgun regulations are much more stringent but their evidence on the difference in gun availabilty is indirect and unpersuasive indeed they acknowledge that direct evidence on the point does not exist they offer two fragments of inferential data in support of the claim that guns are more available in seattle but for all anybody knows as a matter of empirical fact the opposite could be true we are therefore being asked at the conclusion of the study to believe that a difference in gun availability explains the difference in homicide rates when a difference in gun availability has not itself been established indeed the situation is even more troublesome the first of the two indirect bits of evidence is a difference between the number of concealed weapons permits issued in seattle and the number of restricted weapons permits issued in vancouver differences between the two cities in the permit regulations render these two numbers strictly noncomparable the second bit of evidence is cook s gun prevalence index which stands at percent for seattle but only percent for vancouver cook s index however does not measure the relative prevalence of gun ownership in various cities it measures gun misuse it is an average of the percentage of homicides and suicides involving firearms in the present case the index shows only that in homicides and suicides firearms are more likely to be used in seatte than in vancouver to take cook s index as a measure of general firearms availability it must be assumed that the proportional involvement of guns in homicides and suicides is directly related to their relative availability in the general population but this is exactly what the authors are seeking to prove to assume what one is seeking to prove then to prove it on the basis of that assumption does ot constitute scientific evidence for anything even if we were to grant on the basis of no compelling evidence that guns are less common in vancouver we might still question what causes what the authors attribute seattle s higher crime rate to a higher rate of gun ownership but it might well be argued that low crime or homicide rates reduce the motivation for average citizens to obtain guns in other words that crime rates explain the variation in gun ownership not vice versa in fact it was once commonly argued that great britain s low rate of violent crime was a function of that nation s strict gun laws and the consequent low rate of gun ownership until british researcher colin greenwood found that great britain had enjoyed low rates of violent crime for many decades before strict firearms controls were enacted to invoke an ancient methodological saw correlation is not cause nor do the problems with this study end with its lack of direct data on gun ownership the authors say seattle and vancouver are similar in many ways implying that they differ mainly in gun availability gun law stringency and crime rates this is an evident attempt to establish the ceteris paribus condition of a sound scientific analysis that all else is equal among things being compared clearly the two cities are similar in some ways but a closer look reveals differences in ways that are relevant to their respective crime or homicide rates the cities are closely matched in what percentage of their population is white percent and percent but seattle is about percent black while vancouver is less than percent vancouver s minority population is overwhelmingly asian so although the authors show that th two cities are approximately comparable on a half dozen readily available demographic indicators they have not shown that all potentially relevant sources of variation have been ruled out in fact the differences in racial compositions of the two cities is particularly relevant in light of the study s breakdown of homicide rates according to the race of the victim for the white majority the homicide rates are nearly identical per in seattle in vancouver the differing overall homicide rates in the two cities are therefore due entirely to vastly different rates among racial minorities for blacks the observed difference in homicide rate is to and for hispanics to methodoligical complexities render the asian comparison problematic but it too is higher in seattle than in vancouver racial minorities are much more likely to be the victims of homicide in seattle than in vancouver the white majority is equally likely to be slain in either city since the nearly initial difference in homicide reates between the cities is due exclusively to or differences between minority groups it is fair to ask why postulated difference in gun availability or gun law strigency would matter so dramatically to minorities but not matter at all to whites can differential gun availability explain why blacks and hispanics but not whites are so much more likely to be killed in seattle than in vancouver studies in the united states incidentally do not show large or consistent racial differences in gun ownership or are other explanations more plausible could the disparity between canadian and american rates of poverty among racial minorities have anything to do with it what are the relative rates of drug or alcohol abuse of homelessness among each cty s minority population the city of seattle runs the largest shelter for homeless men west of the mississippi unemployment among young central city nonwhite men in the united states usually exceeds percent what is the comparable canadian percentage the crucial point is that canada and the united states differ in many ways as do cities and population subgroups with the two countries absent more detailed analysis nearly any of these many ways might explain part or all of the difference in homicide rates in gross comparisons such as those between seattle and vancouver all else is not equal the authors of this study acknowledge that racial patterns in homicide result in a complex picture they do not acknowledge that the ensuing complexities seriously undercut the main thrust of their argument they also acknowledge that socio economic status is probably an important confounding factor in our comparison remarking further that blacks in vancouver had a slightly higher mean income in than the rest of vancouver s population given the evidence presented in the article it is possible that all of the difference in homicide rates between seattle and vancouver results from greater proverty among seattle s racial minorities but the authors pay no further attention to this possibility since detailed information about household incomes according to race is not available for vancouver the largely insurmountable methodological difficulties confronted in gross comparative studies of this sort can be illustrated with as simple example if one were to take all u s couties and compare them in terms of pervalence of gun ownership and crime or homicide rates one would find an astonishing pattern counties with more guns have less crime would one conclude from this evidence alone that guns actually reduce crime or would one insist that other variables also be taken into account in this example the hidden variable is city size guns are more common in small towns and rural areas whereas crime is a big city problem if researchers failed to anticipate this variable or lacked the appropriate data to examine its possible consequences they coud be very seriously misled in the study at hand the authors matched two cities for size but not for minority poverty rates or other hidden variables and their results are impossible to interpret in the editorial firearm injuries a call for science accompanying the study two officials from the centers for disease control lauded the authors for applying scientific methods to a problem of grave public heath significance but in attempting to draw causal conclusions from nonexperimental research the essence of scientific method is to anticipate plausible alternative explanations for the results and try to rule them out absent such effort the results may well seem scientific but are little more than polemics masquerading as serious research that this study is but one of a number of recent efforts all employing practical identical research designs and published in leading scientific journals is cause for further concern james d wright is professor of sociology at tulane university he has researched extensively on the relationship of firearms and crime reason published monthly except combined august september issue by the reason foundation a nonprofit tax exempt organization subscription rate per year reason foundation ocean park blvd suite santa monica ca
talk.politics.guns	waco dates are these coincidental the atf agent interviewed on street stories reported that the raid was ill planned and went ahead even when they the bd s knew the atf was coming why i believe this raid was ill planned because they only had days to plan it and it was continued when failure was obvious because it had a bit part in the much larger political agenda of president clinton i would even suggest that the loss of atf agents is inconsequential in this the context of his political agenda it might even be beneficial to his agenda as it helps point up just how evil these assualt weapons are further proof might be that the atf denied their agents street stories report requests for sufficient fire power important dates feb th nj assembly votes to overturn assault weapon ban feb th compound in waco attacked on feb th the new jersey assembly voted to overturn the assault weapon ban in that state it looked like it might be a tight vote but the senate in n j was going to vote to overturn the ban it would not sit well to have an eastern state overturn an assault weapon ban given clintons stated agenda on gun control i suspect clinton gave the order to get someone or some group with assualt weapons and have the press present they were initially at the incident in waco to record the event for the tv audience the agent on street stories reported that a supervisor was urging them all to get ready fast as they know we are coming i believe this attack continued even tho the probablility of failure was high because it came from the top down after the n j assembly vote the atf had a limited amount of time to come up with something and the wackos in waco fit the bill nicely rich
talk.politics.guns	re gov t break ins re minutes aj cleveland freenet edu pat weber writes ever notice that people in these cases are always described by clever handles such as eccentric religious wackos gun nuts cultists survivalists etc so the general public will not identify with them the san jose mercury news described him as a year old retired chemical engineer john nagle
talk.politics.guns	re gun control was re we re mad as hell at the tv news manes magpie linknet com steve manes writes hambidge bms com wrote in article c psog c magpie linknet com manes magpie linknet com steve manes writes rate per capita rate the uk is more dangerous though you may be less likely to be killed by a handgun the average individual citizen in the uk is twice as likely to be killed by whatever means as the average swiss would you feel any better about being killed by means other than a handgun i wouldn t what an absurd argument switzerland is one fifth the size of the uk with one eigth as many people therefore at any given point on swiss soil you are more likely to be crow bait more importantly you are x as likely to be killed by the next stranger approaching you on a swiss street than in the uk killed by handgun or killed if i m dead i don t much care if it was by being shot or stabbed to death you are betraying your lack of understanding about rate versus total number rates are expressed often as population therefore if a place had deaths and a population of the rate would be a place that had deaths and a population of would hav a rate of the former has a higher rate the latter a higher total you are less likely to die in the latter simple enuff for chrissakes take out your calculator and work out the numbers here i ve preformatted them for you to make it easier handgun homicides population switzerland uk and then tell me again how switzerland is safer with a more liberal handgun law than the uk is without by rate or total number your choice stephen manes manes magpie linknet com manes and associates new york ny usa o o i don t think you can get an accurate indicator of how safe england is compared to switzerland by concentrating only on handgun murders and completely ignoring murders by other weapons not to mention the rate of other violent crimes if there are more guns in circulation if follows that more people will be killed with them cause they are available to the person intent on committing a crime regardless of whether they have to do it with a gun knife or bare hands the gun control lobby doesn t seem to understand this point if people are intent on committing a crime they will do it with whatever means are available to them aaron arc cco caltech edu
talk.politics.guns	re waco the militia assembles dumb move the smart move would be to sneak in someone with a tv camera and video transmitter john nagle
talk.politics.guns	re gun nuts and holly silva in article c tsd va news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu brent irvine writes in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu rcanders nyx cs du edu mr nice guy writes both the gun nuts and the gays are aggressively defensive and quite hostile to any one trying to deprive them of their rights just like any group trying to protect their rights the fallacy of this whole thing is that your rights are not in jeapardy by these posts how can you say that i presume that you mean that talking about restricting rights is not the same as restricting those rights well arguing for those restrictions may lead to implementation much the same way as assault can lead to battery legal definitions most t p g people and the homosexual groups won t even discuss the subject at all in a polite form the mere raising of a question as to why the rights are there or what exactly the right encompasses bring shrill posts and angry hostile traffic well i can t speak for the homosexuals but i ve seen alot of polite discussion on t p g please everyone don t take this guy s word or mine for that matter on it read t p g for a while and try to determine from which direction most of the flameage originates if you post without flamebait you will generally receive reasoned responses true there are those who tend to lose their tempers quickly as there are on all newsgroups but they really do feel their rights are in jeopardy oh and neat trick talking derisively about another newsgroup while not crossposting to allow them to defend themselves i think a lot of t p g people have very thin skin when it comes to discussing these subjects methinks you doth protest too much dave schabel dave schabel opinions and comments contained herein are mine and schabel calspan com do not necessarilly reflect those of calspan corp or located in western ny its customers
talk.politics.guns	re aclu was re waco shootout jmd cube handheld com jim de arras writes in article mar news cs indiana edu paul hager hagerp cs indiana edu writes as an old post of mine came up in a collection of posts about the aclu s position on gun control i would like to note that my own position has been evolving but i m still not sure how to answer the question does the nd allow me to have my own nuclear device the second amendment does not prohibit it but it can probably be argued that there is no way you can operate one without severely impacting on the safety and rights of others and so might not be permitted on that basis the existence of the weapon in and of itself and this is also true for biologics and chemical weapons but for slightly different reasons poses a threat to living critters can you say neutron and other radiation flux due to radioactive decay boys and girls aaron arc cco caltech edu
talk.politics.guns	re important holly silva information in article pkojminnmuq cae cad gatech edu vincent cad gatech edu vincent fox writes in a separate post over on soc culture usa she explicitly said that while she cross posts to t p g and sets follow ups to there she does not read talk politics guns if you think about it it s a clever way of keeping some of the politer respondents who will edit their newsgoup line or properly use the follow up from being heard over there it also makes it easier for her to claim all she ever sees is squeaky weasels so if you want her to see your insiteful analysis e mail it if you want to point out her flaws in public make sure your newsgroup line includes soc culture usa to keep from flooding s c u i e mailed it however i agree that it s quite the sneaky trick no more than i would expect however cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re atf suspects drug lab in compound in article mar mnemosyne cs du edu rcanders nyx cs du edu mr nice guy writes a associated press news story reports in other developments saturday david troy intelligence chief for the atf confirmed reports that authorities suspected the cult had a methamphetamine lab he said evidence of possible drug activity surfaced late in the atf investigation of the cult s gun dealings wow the scope of the mission of the atf continues to expand besides alcohol tobacco and firearms they now seem to be involded in child protective services drug enforcement and tax evasion they look to be on the road to being the nations boys in blue no knock in one hand m in the other zeik heil lance lance w bledsoe lwb im u cs utexas edu ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free
talk.politics.guns	re threatening gun owners in article blue cis pitt edu gswst cislabs pitt edu gary s wachs writes hello i m writing a story on the future of gun control there are a few points i would welcome your opinion on it s wonderful having a resource like this newsgroup to take advantage of and i thank you in advance for your feedback what do you believe are the most serious threats to gun owners in the future the government liberals batf fbi dea etc see are you concerned that the nd ammendment could be reinterpreted to apply to the armed forces only barring civilians from owning arms of any kind well contributions taxes abortion elimination of fetal tissue clinton president faggot spouse it could happen if you did have control over what types of arms people would be allowed to buy which types would you feel compelled to restrict to military uses only ie bazooka m grenade atomic bomb etc hydrogen bomb perhaps would you describe hci and all other gun control activists as being determined to make it illegal for a civilian to own or use a firearm yep have you personally read the brady bill in its entirety yep thank again gary lance w bledsoe lwb im u cs utexas edu ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free
talk.politics.guns	re waco shootout highlights total irresponsibility of the in a previous article irvine uxh cso uiuc edu brent irvine says come on guys looks like its time to move that juvenile public post either to e mail or to a different newsgroup alt sex bondage holly silva no brent that would be alt sex bondage holly silva goofy anti semite if you were smarter you d have these opinions
talk.politics.guns	tx senator bob krueger rtkba statement for those of you interested i just finished talking with a representative of senator bob krueger s reelection campaign about his position on the rtkba krueger was appointed by the democratic governor of texas to complete lloyd bentsen s unexpired term the representative said that senator krueger did not have a position and would only comment on specific legislation that was pending no comment was available on the various versions of the brady bill be warned and vote accordingly
talk.politics.guns	re govs florio wilder hit airwaves in support of brady bill in article apr r node hub org ndallen r node hub org nigel allen writes here is a press release from handgun control inc it is ironic that jim and i are observing this march in a country that finds america s level of gun violence not only unacceptable but unbelievable said mrs brady chair of handgun control inc so where was she and would she consider staying there cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re i believe in gun control in article apr news duc auburn edu bixledn eng auburn edu writes in article cbnews cb att com lvc cbnews cb att com larry cipriani writes no you haven t read it very closely it says you may answer no if your civil rights have been restored that can be done either by the feds or a a state i think the feds stopped doing this for those convicted of violent felonies at least a dozen states still restore a felons civil rights some immediately upon release some after a waiting period i will post a list of the states later a quick question then larry if a person s civil rights have been restored then are they still considered a felon good question i don t know what the law considers them imo if rights have been restored then it makes sense to me that the record of the felony and everything else has been purged and the person in question is no longer a felon i believe this is what happens in some states larry cipriani l v cipriani att com
talk.politics.guns	re lavishly funded gun epidemic propaganda campaign to commence in article c txek fcq magpie linknet com manes magpie linknet com steve manes writes morris the cat rats cbnewsc cb att com wrote well as neal knox of the firearms coalition points out the full force of the anti gun ruling class their multi millions their polling organizations their schools their news media their entertainment media the entertainment media a force of the anti gun ruling class is this the same media that s made billions producing films and television that glorify guns and gun users or is that another anti gun media you ve got to be kidding by this do you mean that you consider it absolutely impossible for the media to be guilty of hypocrisy note that the film industry in california traded their political support for an assault weapon ban in the state for an amendment to the bill exempting the entertainment industry from that very ban note that the very issue of the batman comic book seduction of the gun that was produced as a tool for gun control organizations carries a back page ad for a terminator ii video game extolling the numerous and varied sophisticated weapons available to the player note that arthur ochs sulzberger publisher of the ny times one of the oldest and most incessant gun control grinders himself carries a concealed handgun still you find it completely incredible that these folks live by the aphorism do as i say and not as i do cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re govs florio wilder hit airwaves in support of brady bill in article apr ucsu colorado edu fcrary ucsu colorado edu frank crary writes in article apr msc cornell edu srussell msc cornell edu stephen russell writes obguns i m moving to arizona everyone carries guns there if i don t what are the approximate probabilities that i ll get shot by the end of six months under in assuming fbi statistics are meaningfull of course if you re a criminal or hang around with criminals or flash large wads of cash in the wilder parts of town or utter verbal bigotry in the right public places your chances of being shot are much higher avoiding these behaviors on the other hand decreases your chances of being shot something like of all murders are criminals killing criminals over of murders are committed by people with a prior known history of violence simplistic moral suitable for my three year old and most inane posters bad people do bad things repeatedly kirk hays nra life seventh generation the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing edmund burke
talk.politics.guns	re waco dates are these coincidental richard cower cower csli stanford edu wrote i believe this raid was ill planned because they only had days to plan it and it was continued when failure was obvious because it had a bit part in the much larger political agenda of president clinton i would even suggest that the loss of atf agents is inconsequential in this the context of his political agenda it might even be beneficial to his agenda as it helps point up just how evil these assualt weapons are further proof might be that the atf denied their agents street stories report requests for sufficient fire power important dates feb th nj assembly votes to overturn assault weapon ban feb th compound in waco attacked on feb th the new jersey assembly voted to overturn the assault weapon ban in that state it looked like it might be a tight vote but the senate in n j was going to vote to overturn the ban it would not sit well to have an eastern state overturn an assault weapon ban given clintons stated agenda on gun control i suspect clinton gave the order to get someone or some group with assualt weapons and have the press present they were initially at the incident in waco to record the event for the tv audience the agent on street stories reported that a supervisor was urging them all to get ready fast as they know we are coming i believe this attack continued even tho the probablility of failure was high because it came from the top down after the n j assembly vote the atf had a limited amount of time to come up with something and the wackos in waco fit the bill nicely rich i don t know rich last year when the congress was debating the bushmans crime bill the incident at lubys cafe occured most of the anti gun crap was amended out of the bill anyway could a president order go find some assault weapons and bring the media i hope not frankly the toon meister scares me of course having a democratic majority in congress doesn t help apologies to all demos who support rkba definition toon meister a characatureic name for the current president of the u s clinton aka clintoon aka toon meister rob p
talk.politics.guns	re nra fucks up bigtime in article apr cbnewse cb att com doctor cbnewse cb att com patrick b hailey writes in article slagle mar sgi msd lmsc lockheed com slagle lmsc lockheed com writes in article xw twyl dixie com jgd dixie com john de armond writes no actually i m a lot more familiar with the libbers than i care to be i m a bit hesitant to continue this thread because it brings back horrible memories of my first encounter with the libbers in the larouche branch i made the mistake of buying a any connection between lyndon larouche and the libertarian party is a pure product of your own fertile imagination naw perhaps he reads time magazine it s a fair stretch of anyone s imagination to expect them to attach any credibility to anything written in time magazine in the past twenty years i d imagine the enquirer at least gets the names attached to the right body parts mark mark e slagle po box slagle lmsc lockheed com sunnyvale ca usa
talk.politics.guns	ffl gunsmithing questions i have a few questions i d like to ask first how would someone me be able to get a dealers license and second besides dear old departed gramp s where would i find a good place to learn gunsmithing all replies appreciated john
talk.politics.guns	re gun control was re we re mad as hell at the tv news in article c tr m eqw magpie linknet com manes magpie linknet com steve manes writes on the other hand we can draw lessons from neighbors who are more culturally similar namely the canadians i don t think such a canada is any more culturally similar to the united states than england in terms of laws regarding individual rights restrictions on police searches etc all closely related to crime canadian laws parallel england s and differ greatly from those of the united states in fact an exhaustive seven year study has already been done of the respective crime rates of vancouver british columbia and seattle washington cities with roughly the same population urban economy geography and crime but with decidedly different approaches to gun control actually they do not have roughly the same urban economy and extremely different ethnic composition over the seven year study homicides occurred in seattle per vs homicides in vancouver per after adjustment for differences in age and sex among the populations the relative risk of being a victim of homicide in seattle as compared to vancouver was found to be however if you account for economic and ethnic differences the difference disappears completely seattle s minorities are predominatly poor while vancouver s are middle or upper class the rates for whites in both cities were found to be identicle while the rate for poor seattle minorities was almost three times as great as for the well to do minorities of vancouver the pattern seems to be one of poverty and race relations not one of gun control the authors of the report also investigated legally justifiable homicides self defense only such homicides occurred during the seven year study of which were committed by police only cases of civilians acting in self defense occurrred that is a gross distortion self defense does not mean killing the attacker there were cases of civilians killing their attacker in self defence but such cases represent less that of the crimes prevented by armed self defence for every case you cite there were over other cases of self defence where the crime was prevented but the attacker was not killed by the way is the most conservative possible figure based on the national crime survey s estimate of crimes prevented by armed self defence each year most other studies on the subject put the figure at to those figures would imply less than of sucessful self defences involve killing the attacker so more correctly there over possibly as many as cases of civilians acting in self defence only of which resulted in the death of the attacker this is a significant factor in comparison to the homicides if memory serves homicides make up approximately of the violent crimes the study considered so the fair comparison would be homicides prevented and homicides clearly the study can not be close to accurate since it ignored these cases of self defence frank crary cu boulder
talk.politics.guns	re bill blame america first clinton strikes again jeddi next pg wam umd edu anheuser busch writes this argument sounds very stupid if the ability to make guns from simple metalworking was easy then drug dealers would make their own wouldn t they why spend hundreds of dollars buying a gun that somebody else made cheap and is selling it to you at an exorbitant markup the simple truth of the matter is that regardless of how easy it is to make guns banning guns will reduce the the number of new guns and seriuosly impede the efforts of a killer intent on buying a weapon to show why the tools argument is the silliest i have ever seen take an analogy from computer science almost every computer science major can write a wordprocessor yet we comp sci majors would willingly pay to bucks for a professional software like wordperfect why don t we just all write our own software because it is highly inconvinient same with guns secondly how does one get this gunpowder for the home made gun take a quick trip to the local eleven if guns were really that simple to make the bosnian muslims would be very happy people or is it the case that metalworking tools are banned in bosnia deep sarcasm well this is my two cents i will now resume reading all these ridiculus post from people who must make their living doing stand up comedy end of forwarded material and so the rubber spheroid arced beneath the brilliant lights headed for a hoop of dreams he d dreamt of all those nights the crowd gasped as the ball descended would it grant their fondest wish there was no doubt in casey s mind he knew it was a swish
talk.politics.guns	re fwd free nra membership offer andy sail stanford edu andy freeman writes the nra supports anyone who s pro gun and has a chance of winning election regardless of their other positions is it their fault that some drug legalizers are anti gun is it their fault that the drug legalizers who are pro gun can t get elected it s not the nra s fault but it is something to consider if you are considering contributing to the nra if candidate b is a complete asshole whose only saving grace is that he opposes unnecessary restrictions on firearms i wouldn t want my membership dues funding efforts to get him re elected i have other problems with the nra as an organization the individual members i ve met have been loyal trustworthy honest brave etc especially my boss who probably reads this newsgroup b they are definitely pro hunting and i recall seeing a pro desert storm nra bumper sticker sometimes they come on too strong in the political arena which contributes to their reputation as bad guys amoung many people tom swiss tms cs umd edu born to die keep your laws off my brain what s so funny bout peace love and understanding nick lowe this sig contains no animal products and was not tested on animals i would feel more optimistic about a bright future for man if he spent less time proving that he can outwit nature and more time tasting her sweetness and respecting her seniority e b white
talk.politics.guns	re the usual kendall lds loral com colin kendall writes i just heard some anti gun control people giving the usual arguments it s everyone s right to bear arms and the way to solve the problem of people getting killed by guns is better law enforcement it strikes me that this argument could be logically extended as follows a nuclear weapon is an arm hence anyone has a right to have nuclear weapons and if someone uses his nuclear weapons to blow up new york l a and chicago that s okay as long as we have a good police force capable of finding him and putting him in jail which will serve as a deterrent to others do any anti gun control people disagree with this and if so why yes i am pro gun and yes i do disagree with this statement nuclear weapons in and of themselves are dangerous radioactive decay of plutonium and uranium as well as the tritium in the weapon tends to be somewhat dangerous to living things can you say neutron flux plus these things have no self defense purposes it s kinda hard to justify their use as a militia weapon when at best they are meant for battlefield use low yield weapons or at worst for industrial target obliteration translation cities and population centers not to mention that for it to be used as a militia weapon and expect the user to live requires some sort of launch vehicle aaron arc cco caltech edu
talk.politics.guns	re gun control was re we re mad as hell at the tv news in article c tshu ew magpie linknet com manes magpie linknet com steve manes writes that s all very well and good but i was refering to all homocides not just ones involving handguns what is this fixation on death by shooting as if it were somehow worse than death by stabbing what relevance are all homicides in this debate the issue is guns not baseball bats no the issue is reducing crime not guns if gun control doesn t lower crime overall then is doesn t address the issue even a simpleton knows that he stands a better chance of surviving an attack with a baseball bat does that matter if assaults with a baseball bat become much more common muggers using a gun rely primarily on the threat of the gun and rarely shoot their victim a mugger using a knife is much more likely to start by stabbing his victim in an effort incapacitate him so while a knif may not be as deadly as a gun criminals are more likely to actually use the knife as opposed to threatening the victim with it it isn t at all clear that replacing the criminal s gun with a knife would reduce murders stabbings might just become more common that s why it is important to look at the overall not the with gun homicide rate it avoids the issue of substitution different criminal techinques of using different weapons etc and measures what we want to prevent murders as for knives see my earlier post i d much rather face a knife than a gun thanks face possibly however facing knife welding attackers isn t too common stabbing without warning and by supprise is the usual tactic very few criminals shoot from cover it attracts to much attention and they don t have a chance to go through your pockets overall i d much rather be threatened with a gun than actually stabbed with a knife fortunately the best defense against a knife isn t another knife anyone trained in unarmed self defense won t have much of a problem disarming a knife assailant untrained in knife assault which probably means of knife assailants actually the exact same statement is true of guns training in unarmed self defence will let you disarm an untrained gunman without much problem you also ignore the criminal s reaction the national crime survey clearly shows that criminals unarmed armed with a knife gun or whatever are unwilling to risk their lives in a confrontation if faced with a serious threat almost all prefer to leave and find an easier target therefore using or threatening to use as is much more commonly the case a weapon is the best defence against an attacker regardless of how he is armed knives however are much less effective than guns criminals don t consider knifes as a serious threat nearly as often as they do guns frank crary cu boulder
talk.politics.guns	re gun control was re we re mad as hell at the tv news in article c u x fw magpie linknet com manes magpie linknet com steve manes writes i don t know how anyone can state that gun control could have no effect on homicide rates i don t think anyone is arguing that there would be no effect but there would be no net positive effect you also have to consider the negative side law abiding citizens armed with fireamrs pistols for the most part prevent between national crime survey and dr kleck crimes each year those are the extremes most studies find the number to be to about of those crimes are homicides so private ownership of firearms saves approximately lives each year there are roughly criminal homicides and fatal accidents involving guns each year for there to be any net benefit you would have to show that gun control measures would disarm over of the criminals currently using guns that would be very hard to do according the the federal batf only of criminals buy their guns over the counter since gun control laws by their very nature only effect legal sales such a law would remove all the benefits of armed law abiding citizens while having only a minimal effect on armed criminals who by and large get their guns illegally that doesn t sound like a net benefit to me there were over accidental handgun homicides in america in most with licensed weapons since most were with licensed weapons i assume you are not supporting reasonable laws i e waiting periods background checks licenses etc since only a complete ban would alter the statistic you refer to i assume that s what you are supporting by the way people dies in from falling down stairs accidental handgun deaths isn t significant next to other household accidents more american children accidentally shot other children last year than all the handgun homicides in great britain children under the age of died by drowning from drinking poisonous household chemicals like drano from falls if the real goal is to reduce the tragic accidental deaths of children wouldn t a ban on drain cleaners be a better palce to start or perhaps restricting ownership to professionals like plumbers please no dictionary arguments about rates vs total numbers okay they re offered for emphasis not comparison while you might call it emphasis refering to completely two statistics in the same sentence implies a comparison if it isn t valid and you put the numbers together to convince people you are right the kindest thing i could call it is propaganda frank crary cu boulder
talk.politics.guns	re gun control was re we re mad as hell at the tv news in article c tm h ecf magpie linknet com manes magpie linknet com steve manes writes you are betraying your lack of understanding about rate versus total number rates are expressed often as population therefore if a place had deaths and a population of the rate would be a place that had deaths and a population of would hav a rate of the former has a higher rate the latter a higher total you are less likely to die in the latter simple enuff for chrissakes take out your calculator and work out the numbers here i ve preformatted them for you to make it easier handgun homicides population switzerland uk and then tell me again how switzerland is safer with a more liberal handgun law than the uk is without by rate or total number your choice because there are about homicides total i e using guns knives tire irons baseball bats bare hands etc in switzerland each year and homicides total in england that s three times worse per capita in england than in switzerland since dead is dead it really doesn t matter that of the switz murders involved a gun or that only of the english murderers do frank crary cu boulder
talk.politics.guns	re bill blame america first clinton strikes again in article news duke edu eyc acpub duke edu emil chuck writes this argument sounds very stupid if the ability to make guns from simple metalworking was easy then drug dealers would make their own wouldn t they they do according the the los angeles police department illegal manufacture is one the three primary sources of machine guns and submachine guns used in crimes sumggling and theft from the police and military being the other two washington d c police have stated that if i m remembering the figure correctly of the guns they conficate were illegally built why spend hundreds of dollars buying a gun that somebody else made cheap and is selling it to you at an exorbitant markup it takes about hours and a few tools to make one at least one of reasonable quality unless the drug dealer enjoyes messing around on a lathe say as a hobby he s going to have to pay someone anyway materials plus six hours of a machinist s time for something legal would run about the blackmarket prices for guns are usually in the to range at least those few i ve seen cited in newspaper articles were the simple truth of the matter is that regardless of how easy it is to make guns banning guns will reduce the the number of new guns and seriuosly impede the efforts of a killer intent on buying a weapon washington d c has a total ban on handguns and prohibits assembled rifles within city limits it s homicide rate is almost ten times the national average it is also illegal for a d c resident to drive to the virginia or maryland suburbs and buy a gun dealers are required by federal law to check ids and make sure the buyer isn t from another state so the ban can not be easily side stepped to show why the tools argument is the silliest i have ever seen take an analogy from computer science almost every computer science major can write a wordprocessor yet we comp sci majors would willingly pay to bucks for a professional software like wordperfect why don t we just all write our own software because it is highly inconvinient sure but it you couldn t buy one you would write your own in fact people did write their own years ago more likely you would find a friend who was a particularly good programer and get him give you a copy of his software is a very bad example for your case how many people do you know with illegal copies of word processors if people want something and it isn t available or affordable legally they will usually get it illegally same with guns quite secondly how does one get this gunpowder for the home made gun the formula has been around for half a million years or are you going to restrict sales of sulpher charcoal and saltpeter that s alot cruder than modern smokless powder but it works very well the only real problems are a reduction in energy so a magnum would only be as deadly as a mm and it makes alot more smoke of course a smart black marketeer could just make the gun in mm and steal the ammunition from the police the police are often corruptable and things are known to disappear from police evidence rooms and armories and reappear on the streets if guns were really that simple to make the bosnian muslims would be very happy people or is it the case that metalworking tools are banned in bosnia deep sarcasm perhaps you weren t watching the news two years ago but the serbs also tried to invade slovinia they were driven out after a few weeks by partisans armed with home made anti tank weapons the afghan rebels frequently made their own rifles frank crary cu boulder
talk.politics.guns	re gov t break ins re minutes on a los angeles radio station last weekend the lawyers for the family of the murdered rancher said that the los angeles sheriff s department had an assessment done of the rancher s property before the raid this strongly implies that the sheriff s department wanted the property any drugs which were not found were only an excuse in viet nam lt calley was tried and convicted of murder because his troops in a war setting deliberately killed innocent people it is time that the domestic law enforcement agencies in this country adhere to standards at least as moral as the military s greed killed the rancher possibly greed killed the davidian children government greed it is time to prosecute the leaders who perform these invasions fred franceschi these are my own opinions
talk.politics.guns	re gun control was re we re mad as hell at the tv news j spencer j m spencer newcastle ac uk wrote manes magpie linknet com steve manes writes jim de arras jmd cube handheld com wrote last year the us suffered almost wrongful or accidental deaths by handguns alone fbi statistics in the same year the uk suffered such deaths scotland yard statistics the population of the uk is about that of the us weighted for population the us has x as many handgun related deaths as the uk and no the brits don t make up for this by murdering x as many people with baseball bats snip if you examine the figures they do stabbing is favourite closely followed by striking punching kicking many more people are burnt to death in britain as are shot to death take at look and you ll see for yourself it means that very few people are shot to death in great britain stephen manes manes magpie linknet com manes and associates new york ny usa o o
talk.politics.guns	re gun control was re we re mad as hell at the tv news jim de arras jmd cube handheld com wrote in article c u x fw magpie linknet com manes magpie linknet com steve manes writes i don t know how anyone can state that gun control could have no effect on homicide rates there were over accidental handgun homicides in america in most with licensed weapons more american children accidentally shot other children last year than all the handgun homicides in great britain source national safety council please no dictionary arguments about rates vs total numbers okay they re offered for emphasis not comparison you re a great debater you chose your sources of information claim them to be superior i ve made no such claim please direct my attention towards any posting of mine where i claimed superior sources of information it s probably because i bothered to post any references at all while others seem content to post numbers pulled from the ozone that you ve confused it with fact twisting if so i apologize then take those twisted numbers and twist them further by trying well then here s fair opportunity for you to prove that i ve twisted numbers on what grounds do you contradict those references do you have any citations any sources of your own that i can take similar gratuitous shots at to compare absolute numbers between two countries that have major population differences the usa and gb and then whine that you are afraid someone might attack your process and so claim the numbers are for emphasis not comparison emphasis of what nitpicking and scolding is a whiney debating style jim anything else is blowing smoke you seddit brudda stephen manes manes magpie linknet com manes and associates new york ny usa o o
talk.politics.guns	re a universal right to bear arms not nathan laplace biology yale edu nathan f janette writes in article apr a cs okstate edu kennejs a cs okstate edu kennedy james scot writes gary ke zv uucp gary coffman writes in article apr cs yale edu nathan laplace biology yale edu writes in article c sk w lsr ms uky edu miles ms uky edu stephen d grant writes nathan laplace biology yale edu nathan f janette writes i suppose that s true if you maintain that ak s and ar s are hunting weapons i think they are fun to plink cans targets random vc with but not suitable for real hunting wrong both are legal to hunt with here in kentucky i have a picture of a friend with a nice point buck which he shot with his ar rifle i don t think many deer hunters would condone your friends choice of rifle i must agree with nathan as a deer hunter i find it inhumane to use underpowered weapons for deer hunting to kill cleanly with the little requires extremely good marksmanship most hunting situations don t allow for perfect shots hunters should use sufficiently powerful weapons to drop the deer with a single hit to the chest the x from the aks or sks is adequate to this task having similar ballistics to the familiar but the little is very marginal in the hands of the expert or the lucky it will do but hunters really should have more respect for their quarry gary i ll agree that the popular gr loading for rem is too small for deer sized game however if you use a gr semi spritzer or the sierra gr semi pointed bullet this would be suitable like any round you keep your shots within a reasonable range it would still be on the lower end of what i d consider acceptable performance especially those long distance shots out west hunting monster mule deer the rem has been declared legal for deer hunting in oklahoma the is excellent for varmit hunting and pest control the ar in particular is well suited given its heavy barrel and heat shielded foregrip add a high power scope and you re in dog heaven however i don t think nathan janette was refering to the specific chambering of the rifle in question maybe he thinks self loading rifles have no place in deer hunting that may or may not be his opinion but many sportsmen do use self loading rifles and shotguns wrongo nra man i was definitely referring to the round not the auto loading aspect of the rifle i have no problem with responsible hunting that doesn t include machine guns from choppers but a semi is fine my uncle has bagged several deer with gauge slugs i would prefer that a hunter use as much of the catch as possible and i don t condone hunting for sport only imho of course two questions you asserted that both the ar and ak are not suitable for real hunting if you have no problem with hunting or using self loading rifles for hunting why did you say this if not for deer then what about other smaller game when did i get the nickname nra man notice i have never referred to you as janette which you don t seem to like do i get any super powers like spider man or powdered toast man scott kennedy brewer patriot and now nra man defender of truth justice and the nd amendment kennejs a cs okstate edu
talk.politics.guns	re gov t break ins re minutes in article apr pasadena dc bofa com franceschi pasadena dc bofa com writes on a los angeles radio station last weekend the lawyers for the family of the murdered rancher said that the los angeles sheriff s department had an assessment done of the rancher s property before the raid the briefing documents for the raid had a notation on them about a similar local property which had sold for prior to the raid if recent tv coverage can be believed this strongly implies that the sheriff s department wanted the property any drugs which were not found were only an excuse the ventura county da came to the same conclusion in the report he released which lambasted the sheriff s office too bad the old man was nearly blind and didn t take a few goose stepping drug warriors tm with him kirk hays nra life seventh generation the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing edmund burke
talk.politics.guns	re a universal right to bear arms not rats cbnewsc cb att com morris the cat writes wrong again but if you want proof turn on your tv and look for a show starring chuck connors it was called the rifleman time how fast he can fire that old lever action rifle believe it or not i remember seeing an advertisement for someone selling one of these apparently winchester produced a bunch of these commercially to commemorate the television show i believe it was being sold as a handgun because of the barrel length and lack of a stock i might be mistaking the above weapon for the gun used by steve mcqueen in wanted dead or alive if so sorry did winchester make any commemorative models of the rifle used by chuck connors in the movie chuck connors was an nra member before he died recently i don t know for sure if winchester made any commemeratives if i recall correctly the rifle itself was a model with an oversized loop lever i don t think winchester makes this rifle any more rossi make a model look alike in special and magnum aaron arc cco caltech edu
talk.politics.guns	re aclu was re waco shootout paul hager hagerp cs indiana edu writes the nd amendment does say keep and bear if bear is defined to mean carry then most people are physically unable to carry a several hundred pound nuclear device as i understand it sub kiloton nuclear demolitions are man portable and carried in a backpack as i recall in the s the kennedy administration had sub kiloton nuclear weapons withdrawn from europe and destroyed they were man portable and made for use in shoulder mount rocket launchers the smallest nuclear test i ve seen data for was a yes one tenth kiloton weapon tested either in the late s or early s aaron arc cco caltech edu
talk.politics.guns	re gov t break ins re minutes in article apr pasadena dc bofa com franceschi pasadena dc bofa com writes in viet nam lt calley was tried and convicted of murder because his troops in a war setting deliberately killed innocent people it is time that the domestic law enforcement agencies in this country adhere to standards at least as moral as the military s no lt calley was later acquitted his troops killed people including kids elderly and women i sure don t want to see the domestic law enforcement agencies in this country adhere to those military standards if they did we re all in big trouble the my lai massacre was covered up by high ranking officials and all who were involved were acquitted minh minh lang software engineer jet propulsion laboratory instrumentation systems group instrumentation section note my employer has nothing to do with what i said here
talk.politics.guns	none in article apr dosgate nigel allen canrem com nigel allen writes here is a press release from handgun control inc sarah brady calls on governor to veto nra bill bayh urged to follow clinton s lead to state desk contact cheryl brolin of handgun control inc washington april in a letter today to indiana gov evan bayh sarah brady wife of former white house press secretary james brady and chair of handgun control inc called on the governor to veto nra backed preemption legislation s b which would wipe out existing local gun laws and prohibit localities from enacting future regulations governing the sale possession or transfer of firearms i m counting on gov bayh to show the same kind of political courage president clinton showed as governor of arkansas when he twice vetoed this type of special interest legislation mrs brady said referring to clinton s veto of nra backed preemption bills in and i knew that cutie would sell us out full blooded democrat he is seriously folks if it can happen here remember we all got gun racks on our x s it can happen anywhere now to get that letter ready dear cutie as one who didn t vote for you i can sincerely say i am unhappy nigel allen toronto ontario canada nigel allen canrem com canada remote systems toronto ontario those who know what s best for us must try to save us from ourselves rush jason alley the opinions expressed were given to me earlham college richmond in by aliens living in my pancreas alleyja yang earlham edu the empire never ended
talk.politics.guns	re the usual hollombe polymath tti com the polymath writes the possession of nuclear arms actually weapons grade fissionables is currently regulated only by market forces i e to own them you have to either make them buy them or steal them the only thing that stops you is the staggering cost more than most nations can afford the fact that no one who has them wants to sell to you and the tight security maintained on existing stocks just ask saddam hussein i was under the impression that to obtain fissionable materials i e plutonium or reactor weapons grade uranium one was required to obtain a federal permit to own such materials given a source of fissionables you can build a bomb in your garage with parts from hardware stores and electronic junk supplies you might have to engage in some shady dealings to get the explosive charge but that s trivial compared to getting the plutonium the basic information on the design was declassified years ago and can be dug out of any technical library by a physics grad student actually why bother looking it up from the material we covered last term in weeks of ge ch nuclear chemistry i could derive what it would take to build a bomb and as far as the explosive charge i as a chemist could synthesize a variety of explosives from commonly available chemicals in the garage if i felt like the electronics behind the detonator and the shaped charges are a little trickier however but not impossible using a few tricks of the trade and if i really wanted to be nasty i could include a core of hydrogen and deuterium of course the hardest part is getting the fissionable material to start with and living long enough to put a bomb together plutonium has some nasty properties the polymath aka jerry hollombe m a cdp aka hollombe polymath tti com head robot wrangler at citicorp laws define crime ocean park blvd x police enforce laws santa monica ca citizens prevent crime aaron arc cco caltech edu
talk.politics.guns	re another nytimes yellow sheet editorial feustel netcom com david feustel writes other uninformed purposefully ignorant gun control ranting deleted thanks to the n r a the a t f is prohibited from researching the effectiveness of using taggants in explosives taggants are a cheap and technologically feasible microscopic additive that would help investigators at crime scenes like the world trade center bombing trace the explosives involved i want this man to tell me how in the hell you can take the explosives used in the wtc bombing considering that the consensus seems to be that the explosive was a fertilizer based one ammonium nitrate to be exact of which about tons disappears per year if i recall the stat correctly i don t have it here just one more disregarding of reality to push a point more bunk deleted aaron arc cco caltech edu
talk.politics.guns	re waco dates are these coincidental i do not think it is at all unlikely that clinton ro his policy wonk facilitators arranged the waco raid as a display piece for the gun war on the constitution look at what the bush administration did to get material for the drug war on the constitution remember that baggie of crack george waved at the cameras they took a dealer from the ghetto and brought him to the white house so they could say drugs had been dealt onb the white house lawn and i don t think anybody could honestly think clinton would have any moral qualms about the raid the only really worrisome thing is that the bd s heroic defense of their ranch will make clinton s gun war on the constitution more successfull exactly as he wanted the media and politicians will filter this so that the general public will think the bd s are bad guys don t help them stand up for the bd s with your friends and family adnd in public anytime you can their supposed moral qualms are not important to the issue they are heroes in the fight against oppressive government it could just as well have been you watkins earth eecs uic edu brian e watkins
talk.politics.guns	re gun control proud to be a canuck does anyone really believe the swiss have had no war within their borders because every adult male owns a rifle i m a great admirer of the swiss but years of peace on their turf has zilch to do with gun ownership can you picture hitler with panzers and focke wulfs poised on the border losing sleep over a few thousand expert rifleman sure hitler stayed out of switzerland because the swiss run the money in this world we d do well to emulate them on that and forget about getting more rifles on the street let s disband the nra and start a national investment banking association replete with red and black sticker for the back window of bubba s mercedes we could fire charlton heston and get paul volcker for a spokesman
talk.politics.guns	questions to ponder the libertarian second amendment caucus in fort collins colorado submitted this as a questionnaire to the city council candidates in the upcoming election as expected very few of the candidates of responded but they know we re watching feel free to use any and all of these questions that strike your fancy or use them as inspiration for your own would you be willing to state in writing that if you are publicly demonstrated to have violated your oath of office you would resign and never run for office again under what circumstances do the rights of the group come before the rights of the individual would you support a city charter amendment prohibiting the city government its officials agents and employees from initiating force against any human being for any reason please put the following list in order of precedence from lowest to highest a city ordinance b city resolution c state law d federal statute e u s constitution f state constitution do you believe that it s appropriate for any city official or employee to be paid more than his or her average private sector constituent do you believe that involuntary contributions are a legitimate means of funding council programs would you support a program recognizing the right of taxpayers to earmark their taxes either as must be used or must not be used for specific programs in the event that the candidate none of the above were to win a city election which option do you believe most appropriate a the candidate with the next highest vote total fills the office b a special election is held to fill the office with none of the previous candidates eligible to run again c let the office remain unfilled and unfunded until the next election d abolish the office please return your questionnaire to address of your choice a signature and date line were added here thank you for taking the time to fill out this questionnaire the questionnaires were sent with self addressed stamped envelopes p s one person did get a perfect score on the questionnaire and no he didn t help write it cathy smith my opinions are of course my own
talk.politics.guns	re gun control proud to be a canuck in article pqsruinniae hp col col hp com dduff col hp com dave duff writes does anyone really believe the swiss have had no war within their borders because every adult male owns a rifle i m a great admirer of the swiss but years of peace on their turf has zilch to do with gun ownership can you picture hitler with panzers and focke wulfs poised on the border losing sleep over a few thousand expert rifleman sure the swiss population is and well was far larger than that i think your question should be losing sleep over a million expert riflemen certainly he could have conquered switzerland but a million armed militiamen especially in a mountainous area where tanks effectiveness is limited would have made it a real pain the question a conqueror would ask is is it worth the trouble the more difficult an invasion is the more likely the answer would be no certainly a million riflemen as opposed to a professional army of only ten or twenty thousand the best a country the size of switzerland could support makes invasions more difficult hitler stayed out of switzerland because the swiss run the money in this world really in i m not even sure you could prove that today despite the steriotype certainly the swiss bankers were not essential to the german war time economy frank crary cu boulder
talk.politics.guns	re the usual arc cco caltech edu aaron ray clements writes yes i am pro gun and yes i do disagree with this statement nuclear weapons in and of themselves are dangerous radioactive decay of plutonium and uranium as well as the tritium in the weapon tends to be somewhat dangerous to living things can you say neutron flux can you say i get more background radiation from living in denver or having an office in a limestone building than i do standing next to a power reactor at full power or standing next to a nuclear warhead that is armed look up shielding in your dictionary you don t need six feet of lead to make decent shielding your dead skin cell layer does an excellent job on alpha particles and neutrons are slowed by mere water what do you think of you is plus these things have no self defense purposes it s kinda hard to justify their use as a militia weapon when at best they are meant for battlefield use low yield weapons or at worst for industrial target obliteration translation cities and population centers if the militia has as its job the overthrow of an illegal government they are indeed useful weapons to the militia they won t be too useful in certain areas but leveling the pentagon would be a good thing for said overthrow and it s likely one man carrying a backpack would stand a better chance than one thousand armed with colt peacemakers don t let self defense become the only reason you can have a gun and your sole means of justification myself i won t overthrow my government until it ceases to be my legal government but if i need to i want every weapon i can get one can just as easily say no rifle larger than a is needed to kill a human being they are right when that human being is wearing armor and riding in an apc things get a bit different i don t see where the weapon is a problem it s not only the manner of use is in contention here not to mention that for it to be used as a militia weapon and expect the user to live requires some sort of launch vehicle i guess you either don t have an alarm clock or have never heard the terms timer or martyr either don t forget remote detonation devices that cb radio in the pickup next to you can easily transmit ten miles in decent weather that s out of the blast radius of many portable nuclear devices just what is it about radioactive decay that has you worried dan sorenson dod z dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what i read not what i say don t blame them usenet post to exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them
talk.politics.guns	re the usual arc cco caltech edu aaron ray clements writes i was under the impression that to obtain fissionable materials i e plutonium or reactor weapons grade uranium one was required to obtain a federal permit to own such materials no you merely have to start working on yellowcake or else devise a system to get it from other sources btw the doe handles reactor fuel and merely leases it to reactors the nrc certifies these reactors the military have their own sources a private citizen has none of these official sources actually why bother looking it up from the material we covered last term in weeks of ge ch nuclear chemistry i could derive what it would take to build a bomb that s freshman level chemistry big deal can you make it work that s phd level physics big difference and as far as the explosive charge i as a chemist could synthesize a variety of explosives from commonly available chemicals in the garage if i felt like the electronics behind the detonator and the shaped charges are a little trickier however but not impossible using a few tricks of the trade and if i really wanted to be nasty i could include a core of hydrogen and deuterium so you admit that there s no law that could stop you physics aside could you make one if you had the funds and time the answer is yes so do we lock you up now because of this surely you can see where the comparison with anti gun laws comes into play here of course the hardest part is getting the fissionable material to start with and living long enough to put a bomb together plutonium has some nasty properties precisely why it s not as readily utilized as you seem to have been lead to believe btw u is far better for home made bombs than trying to use plutonium the laws of physics make the creation of a device without serious manufacturing facilities very low in probability dan sorenson dod z dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what i read not what i say don t blame them usenet post to exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them
talk.politics.guns	re waco shootout highlights total irresponsibility of the in article apr gtephx uucp forda gtephx uucp andrew ford agcs phoenix arizona writes in article pdmgainn f kitty ksu ksu edu strat kitty ksu ksu edu steve davis writes cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes if she needs a gun right now why doesn t she already have one you are the victim of a cut and run purse snatcher he makes off with your purse containing your id your house keys and your gun so you re saying she can run right into a store buy a gun run back outside and shoot the guy in the back as he runs off this doesn t no he s saying she just lost her gun and she wants to buy another so that as she sits home alone tonight she s not a sitting duck to any bastard who wants to break in in fact the situation is more grim that that even the purse snatcher now has her home address if the woman lives alone she is in great personal danger
talk.politics.guns	re washington state in article mar synapse bms com hambidge bms com writes in article u uicvm uic edu u uicvm uic edu writes what is a ccw acronym for concealed carrying of weapon basically a permit to carry a concealed pistol or revolver i phoned licensing division in washington state to ask for an application for a ccw instead they promptly sent me an applicationfor becoming a firearms dealer in washington they even sent me a firearms safety pamphlet case kim
talk.politics.guns	re gov t break ins re minutes in article apr pasadena dc bofa com franceschi pasadena dc bofa com writes in viet nam lt calley was tried and convicted of murder because his troops in a war setting deliberately killed innocent people it is time that the domestic law enforcement agencies in this country adhere to standards at least as moral as the military s here here but any call for responsibility and accountability from police is invariably interpreted as being soft on crime being tough on crime and building more prisons and seizing more property is the politically astute thing to do these days greed killed the rancher possibly greed killed the davidian children government greed and citizen complacency it is time to prosecute the leaders who perform these invasions don t forget the politicians that write the laws that make it easy for the police agencies to become corrupt the war on some drugs brought us this corruption and only an end to it legalization will stop the corruption smg
talk.politics.guns	thanks to poster of ny times article on atf in texas good job to whoever posted the article i d been saving that nytimes edition for a while planning to ytpe it in myself but now i don t have to for all of those people who were worried about whether or not the media would even question the raid we owe it to the ny times despite their rabidly anti gun editorials for being willing to talk to these batf agents case kim
talk.politics.guns	re rkba on nyc radio station actually the real reason that stern was getting a bigger rating share was that he was new in d c not because of the quality if you can call it that of his show after the fine was issued he started to get better ratings because of the curious individuals who wanted to see how bad he actually was since he came to d c he has had a greater turn over of listeners than the grease has in other words more people get sick of him sooner than they do of the grease after all saying vagina or penis on the air is hilarious at first the second time it is still a little funny but when you do it all the time and at the same time think you are the greatest man on the planet and tell everyone so than you are going to get old really quick give it up mark you are wrong excuse me but if you really new what the show was about you d know that he doesn t just say vagina and penis and that is how he get s his ratings he also addresss real issues as well as being outrageous i don t hear any of these other idiots doing a funny show and getting into some serious topics at the same time he get s people to think and entertains them at the same time so try listening to his show a little closer before you tell them that they are wrong and by the way if he is such a flash in the pan why do his ratings sustain so well hmm greg w lazar greg puck webo dg com j e t s jets jets jets
talk.politics.guns	re founding father questions arc cco caltech edu aaron ray clements writes wasn t she the one making the comment in about george being born with a silver foot in his mouth sounds like another damn politician to me ain t like the old days in texas anymore the politicians may have been corrupt then but at least they d take a stand my apologies to a few exceptions i can think of news now is that the house may already have a two thirds majority so her opposition out of her concern for image she s even said this publicly may not matter do people expect the texans congressmen to act as the n j republicans did steve podleski phone nasa lewis research center cleveland ohio email pspod gonzo lerc nasa gov
talk.politics.guns	re gun control was re we re mad as hell at the tv news in article c mt apq magpie linknet com manes magpie linknet com steve manes writes jim de arras jmd cube handheld com wrote in article c u x fw magpie linknet com manes magpie linknet com steve manes writes i don t know how anyone can state that gun control could have no effect on homicide rates there were over accidental handgun homicides in america in most with licensed weapons more american children accidentally shot other children last year than all the handgun homicides in great britain source national safety council please no dictionary arguments about rates vs total numbers okay they re offered for emphasis not comparison you re a great debater you chose your sources of information claim them to be superior i m not aware of using any numbers from the ozone unless you consider those i got from you to be such i ve made no such claim please direct my attention towards any posting of mine where i claimed superior sources of information it s probably because i bothered to post any references at all while others seem content to post numbers pulled from the ozone that you ve confused it with fact twisting if so i apologize yes you state the reference and then you claim it s a good or fair treatment then take those twisted numbers and twist them further by trying well then here s fair opportunity for you to prove that i ve twisted numbers on what grounds do you contradict those references do you have any citations any sources of your own that i can take similar gratuitous shots at you fail to see the differences between absolute numbers and rates to compare absolute numbers between two countries that have major population differences the usa and gb and then whine that you are afraid someone might attack your process and so claim the numbers are for emphasis not comparison emphasis of what nitpicking and scolding is a whiney debating style jim no you just miss the point by your methods i can prove gun control to be a total failure new york s total homocide count with it s strict gun control is much higher than rhode island s with it s less strict gun control far more folks are killed in new york than rhode island therefore according to mane logic tm gun control has made new york a much more dangerous place than rhode island remember it s nitpicking and a whiney debating style to point out the differences between new york and rhode island that might defeat my argument anything else is blowing smoke you seddit brudda now you agree wow a break through stephen manes manes magpie linknet com manes and associates new york ny usa o o jim
talk.politics.guns	re gun control was re we re mad as hell at the tv news in article c b amf magpie linknet com manes magpie linknet com steve manes writes last year the us suffered almost wrongful or accidental deaths by handguns alone fbi statistics in the same year the uk suffered such deaths scotland yard statistics the population of the uk is about that of the us weighted for population the us has x as many handgun related deaths as the uk and no the brits don t make up for this by murdering x as many people with baseball bats if you examine the figures they do stabbing is favourite closely followed by striking punching kicking many more people are burnt to death in britain as are shot to death take at look and you ll see for yourself it means that very few people are shot to death in great britain and i m sure that is a great comfort to the widows and children of those stabbed beaten and burned to death the real question is did the crime rate in england go down after they enacted gun control laws if you look at the rates before and after their first such law in you will see no effect frank crary cu boulder
talk.politics.guns	armed citizen april the armed citizen mere presence of a firearm without a shot being fired prevents crime in many instances as shown by news reports sent to the armed citizen shooting usually can be justified only where crime constitutes an immediate imminent threat to life or limb or in some circumstances property the accounts below are from clippings sent in by nra members anyone is free to quote or reproduce them retired las vegas deputy police chief larry bolden initially tried to defend himself with a steering wheel bar lock when a criminal attacked him in his car but then the intruder wrestled it from him bolden pulled his pistol and fired several times wounding his attacker and stopping the incident he was just a citizen defending himself a police official said the review journal las vegas nev a pair of teenaged robbers armed with a sawed off shotgun and handguns took the day s receipts from brooklyn bodega owner hector martinez as they made their getaway martinez grabbed his registered gauge shotgun and gave chase when one fired martinez returned three blasts slightly wounding his assailants they fled but were apprehended when they sought medical attention newsday long island n y a sign posted on the door of roman paras shop reads the owners of this property are armed and highly skilled to protect life liberty and property from criminal attack apparently a pair of robbers didn t pause to read it as they threatened paras wife in their oxnard calif convenience store hearing her scream paras grabbed his ran to the front of the store and shot it out with the masked and armed men killing one criminal the times los angeles calif anne marie sullivan was showering in her portland oreg home one morning when she heard the front door crash in she jumped out of the shower in time to see a man entering the home running to the bedroom sullivan retrieved her boyfriend s pistol and fired two shots mortally wounding the intruder the dead man had a lengthy police and prison record the oregonian portland oreg mike baranelli would have let two robbers who burst into a birmingham ala barber shop keep his money but the year old retired teacher was unwilling to surrender his life when the intruders ordered baranelli the shop owner and another man to lie on the floor baranelli pulled his pistol and shot both men in the head killing one i felt sure there was going to be three dead people in there i think i had some divine help baranelli said the sunday advertiser montgomery ala believing an elderly harvey ill couple would again be easy prey a knife wielding home invader instead met death when the year old homeowner loosed three rounds from a semi automatic pistol police said the dead man had been charged several times for thefts from the couple s home the star chicago heights ill the criminal s profile was scheduled to appear on america s most wanted but his shot at fame was abruptly canceled by a hallandale fla service station clerk the michigan prison escapee walked into the station and announced a robbery instead of cash he got bullets in the head and chest from station clerk gary mcvey police said mcvey acted in self defense and would not face charges the sun sentinel ft lauderdale fla a bridgeport conn oil delivery man handed over the few dollars he had but the thug apparently unsatisfied with his take turned his gun on his victim and demanded more money instead of more cash the deliveryman instead pulled his own pistol and fired mortally wounding the robber police said the dead man had held up a nearby market just before the fatal incident the courant hartford conn after repeated burglaries at her san marcos calif home joan vessel was ready with a and a cordless phone when she heard glass breaking one afternoon when she found two teenagers attempting to get into her woodshed vessel fired a warning shot over their heads marched them into the front yard and called police the times advocate escondido calif angry that his auto insurance had been canceled a client used brass knuckles to take it out on brandon fla agent steven taylor when his assailant walked out of the office taylor grabbed a pistol kept there and held the former client at gun point until police arrived the tribune tampa fla dozing one evening at his exeter pa office jim pisano was awakened by the barking of his dog sitting in stunned amazement he watched as two men smashed out his office window reached in and grabbed one of his hunting rifles reaching a pistol on his desk pisano fired several shots apparently wounding one of the burglars and putting them to flight the times leader wilkes barre pa trying on a pair of shoes was just an act for a criminal who then pulled a knife and demanded money when the man advanced the flint mich shoestore owner drew his pistol and fired critically wounding the would be robber the journal flint mich disarmed and pistol whipped after struggling with a pair of shotgun toting thugs brooklyn n y pharmacist soel melero continued fighting and managed to retrieve a second also licensed hidden pistol firing three times the druggist killed one of his assailants the other fled empty handed the daily news new york n y ron phillips crphilli hound dazixca ingr com senior customer engineer intergraph electronics east evelyn avenue voice mountain view ca fax
talk.politics.guns	re founding father questions in article apr eagle lerc nasa gov pspod bigbird lerc nasa gov steve podleski writes arc cco caltech edu aaron ray clements writes wasn t she the one making the comment in about george being born with a silver foot in his mouth sounds like another damn politician to me ain t like the old days in texas anymore the politicians may have been corrupt then but at least they d take a stand my apologies to a few exceptions i can think of news now is that the house may already have a two thirds majority so her opposition out of her concern for image she s even said this publicly may not matter do people expect the texans congressmen to act as the n j republicans did there is a likely veto proof majority in the house the senate unfortunately is a different story the lt gov has vowed that the bill will not be voted on and he has the power to do it in addition the senate is a much smaller and more readily manipulated body on ther other hand the semi automatic ban will likely not live as at least fifty per cent of the house currently opposes it and it is very far down in the bill order in the senate i believe it will be addressed after the ccw bill and i thought my tx political science class was a waste of time dillon pyron the opinions expressed are those of the ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated when i m here when i m home god gave us weather so we wouldn t complain pyron skndiv dseg ti com about other things padi dm
talk.politics.guns	re gun control was re we re mad as hell at the tv news in article c tm h ecf magpie linknet com manes magpie linknet com steve manes writes hambidge bms com wrote in article c psog c magpie linknet com manes magpie linknet com steve manes writes rate per capita rate the uk is more dangerous though you may be less likely to be killed by a handgun the average individual citizen in the uk is twice as likely to be killed by whatever means as the average swiss would you feel any better about being killed by means other than a handgun i wouldn t what an absurd argument switzerland is one fifth the size of the uk with one eigth as many people therefore at any given point on swiss soil you are more likely to be crow bait more importantly you are x as likely to be killed by the next stranger approaching you on a swiss street than in the uk you are betraying your lack of understanding about rate versus total number rates are expressed often as population therefore if a place had deaths and a population of the rate would be a place that had deaths and a population of would hav a rate of the former has a higher rate the latter a higher total you are less likely to die in the latter simple enuff for chrissakes take out your calculator and work out the numbers here i ve preformatted them for you to make it easier handgun homicides population switzerland uk and then tell me again how switzerland is safer with a more liberal handgun law than the uk is without by rate or total number your choice if you want to talk less likely to get killed with a handgun you d have a point safer includes other things than simply handguns and you can t conclude safer by ignoring them now if somebody s got the total homicide rates david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu mail to veal utkvm utk edu will bounce taxes are not levied for the benefit of the taxed lazarus long
talk.politics.guns	re gun control was re we re mad as hell at the tv news in article c tshu ew magpie linknet com manes magpie linknet com steve manes writes frank crary fcrary ucsu colorado edu wrote that s all very well and good but i was refering to all homocides not just ones involving handguns what is this fixation on death by shooting as if it were somehow worse than death by stabbing what relevance are all homicides in this debate what do you think gun control advocates are saying that if we get rid of all handguns we will live in a homicide free world the relevance is that if you ve got x homicides and reduce the number of gun homicides in that group but x doesn t decrease by a significant amount have you made an improvement and is that improvement worth what you ve paid the issue is guns not baseball bats even a simpleton knows that he stands a better chance of surviving an attack with a baseball bat certainly of outrunning a bat wielding assailant if a baseball bat is a tenth as likely to kill a victim as a gun is that any comfort to that tenth as for knives see my earlier post i d much rather face a knife than a gun thanks i ve faced a knife and i was damn annoyed i didn t have a gun all the statistics in the world didn t change the fact that he was interested in cutting me fortunately the best defense against a knife isn t another knife anyone trained in unarmed self defense won t have much of a problem disarming a knife assailant untrained in knife assault which probably means of knife assailants anyone trained in self defense unarmed self defense isn t for everyone what s more it requires substantially more training to be safe and effective than a firearm it requires physical proximity and thus a greater threat to the victim which is a primary problem with stun guns you have to actually touch your assailant unless you re very good a large stronger assailant can simply ignore your blows long enough to incapacitate you david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu
talk.politics.guns	re the usual in article viking ponderous cc iastate edu viking iastate edu dan sorenson writes yes i am pro gun and yes i do disagree with this statement nuclear weapons in and of themselves are dangerous radioactive decay of plutonium and uranium as well as the tritium in the weapon tends to be somewhat dangerous to living things can you say neutron flux can you say i get more background radiation from living in denver or having an office in a limestone building than i do standing next to a power reactor at full power or standing next to a nuclear warhead that is armed look up shielding in your dictionary you don t need six feet of lead to make decent shielding your dead skin cell layer does an excellent job on alpha particles and neutrons are slowed by mere water what do you think of you is but whatever the neutrons hit has a good chance of absorbing the neutron and becoming radioactive itself mostly that means water turning into harmless heavy water but some neutrons would also hit bones and the resulting harmfull secondard radioactives would remain in the body for decades i think an unshielded nuclear warhead could reasonably be considered a public health hazard as for a shielded warhead i think a fair amount of maintaince is required for it to remain safely shielded e g storage in a dry temperature regulated facility etc for private ownership to be unregulated i think a single individual must be able not only to keep the weapon but keep it in a safe condition if any random private citizen could not properly keep maintain and store a nuclear weapon then some regulation is clearly appropriate plus these things have no self defense purposes it s kinda hard to justify their use as a militia weapon when at best they are meant for battlefield use low yield weapons or at worst for industrial target obliteration translation cities and population centers if the militia has as its job the overthrow of an illegal government they are indeed useful weapons to the militia i disagree with this purpose the job of the militia is to defend themselves and their community if you look at the american revolution as an example the militias won by seperating themselves from and becoming independent of a repressive government they didn t overthrow it and those communities canada and england for example that didn t defend themselves were still under that same old regime if the role of the militia were offensive to go out and destroy repressive governments nuclear weapons might be appropriate but their jobs is defensive and nuclear weapons aren t suited for that there is also the question of personal and collective arms the second amendment definately protects ownership of personal weapons since the very nature of the militia requires members to provide their own arms but it isn t clear if it covers other arms certainly not all members would supply for example a tank only a few could or if they were to be used effectively should however those providing the heavy weapons have a disproportionate control over the militia and its fierpower the militias as the framers envisioned them were extremely democratic if only of the members supported the cause only would respond to a muster and the militia s firepower would be proportionately reduced militia firepower and the popular will were therefore linked but if a small minority of the members supplied a large fraction of the firepower in the form of heavy weapons this would all change the militia s firepower would depend on the will of a small minority not of the general public worse that minority would be quite different from the general public at the very least they would be much richer as a result i think the nature and character of the militia requires that each member provide a roughly equal share of the militia s firepower his personal weapons and some equitable fraction of a squad s heavier firepower frank crary cu boulder
talk.politics.guns	re statement of sarah brady regarding texas state carrying concealed legislation in a previous article nigel allen canrem com nigel allen says here is a press release from handgun control inc statement of sarah brady regarding texas state carrying concealed legislation to state desk contact susan whitmore of handgun control inc washington march following is a statement of sarah brady regarding texas state carrying concealed legislation a handful of lawmakers in austin today have told the public that their safety is of less importance than the interests of the national rifle association this action comes as local state and federal law enforcement officials continue their stand off with a religious cult that has highlighted the need for tougher gun laws not weaker ones like the carry concealed bill a handful of anti gun zealots are telling the public that their right to self defense is of less importance than the interests of handgun control inc this action comes as local state and federal law enforcement officials continue their assault on the branch davidian compound an assault which has already resulted in the death of one two year old child at the hands of federal agents this has highlighted the need for citizens to be able to defend themselves and their children against the excesses of their own government any suggestion by proponents that this bill will help to reduce crime is a distortion of the facts at best this so called crime fighting law has resulted in a percent increase in violent crime in the state of florida and i have never heard law enforcement officials bragging that more guns on the streets is the way to reduce crime any suggestion by opponents that this bill will increase crime is a distortion of the facts at best the aggressive outreach by officials in central florida to train and arm women has led to a dramatic drop in the level of assault and rape in that area of course this program is a rare gem as many law enforcement officials apparently believe that an unarmed citizenry will be easier to control and thus favor tighter restrictions the vote today is an insult to the law enforcement officials who are putting their lives on the line every day to end the standoff in waco the entire country now knows just how easy it is for an individual bent on destruction to amass an arsenal of weapons texas lawmakers who voted for this concealed handgun bill have shown total disregard for those law officials on the front lines and the families of those who have fallen the vote today is a tribute to the good sense of the public at large who are putting their lives on the line every day as they go about their lawful affairs the entire country knows how vulnerable the average citizen is both to attacks from criminals and from armed assault by our own police texas lawmakers who voted for this concealed handgun bill have shown total understanding for those innocent law abiding citizens on the front lines and the families of those who have fallen i urge the house of representatives to listen to the percent of texans that oppose this measure and reject this ill conceived legislation i urge the house of representatives to pay attention to the needs of their constituents and not be stampeded by ill conceived arguments from ideological fanatics nigel allen toronto ontario nigel allen canrem com canada remote systems toronto ontario ain t propaganda fun the opinions expressed by the author are insightful intelligent and very carefully thought out it is therefore unlikely that they are shared by the university of iowa or case western reserve university
talk.politics.guns	re what if the dividians were black as quoted from apr icd ab com by kdw icd ab com kenneth d whitehead oleary cbnewsh cb att com brian m leary writes questions for the media and the politically correct try asking people who don t understand why anyone would worry about the tactics used against the child molesting drug dealing gun running cop killing religious wackos in waco these questions if the people in the compound were black and the guys in ninja suits charging in with assault weapons and grenades were lapd what would you think the charges are essentially the same they used against operation move in philadelphia a few years back where the cops dropped an incendiary bomb on the roof of a tenement and burned down a whole block move was a black group there were some significant differences whereas the branch davidians are reported to have gotten along rather well with their neighbors the move people are generally conceded to have gone far out of the way to antagonize their black neighbors using loudspeakers to all hours of the night keeping large piles of garbage promoting rat and insect infestation and allegedly threatening to kidnap their neighbors children still the same sort of questions regarding use of force remain in that case you re like a bunch of over educated new york jewish aclu lawyers fighting to eliminate school prayer from the public schools in arkansas holly silva
talk.politics.guns	re gun control was re we re mad as hell at the tv news in article c tm h ecf magpie linknet com manes magpie linknet com steve manes writes for chrissakes take out your calculator and work out the numbers here i ve preformatted them for you to make it easier handgun homicides population switzerland uk and then tell me again how switzerland is safer with a more liberal handgun law than the uk is without by rate or total number your choice please pay attention i and others were referring to total homicide deaths not just handgun homicides in terms of how likely are you to be killed regardless of how it s done cause dead is dead the uk has a higher homicide rate period you are more likely to be killed in the uk than in switzerland if you were to be murdered with a handgun then yes switzerland has a higher rate but to belabor the point you are more likely to be murdered in the uk in that sense the weapon is irrelevant the uk is more violent period al standard disclaimer
talk.politics.guns	re gun control was re we re mad as hell at the tv news in article c tshu ew magpie linknet com manes magpie linknet com steve manes writes what relevance are all homicides in this debate what do you think gun control advocates are saying that if we get rid of all handguns we will live in a homicide free world they sure make it sound like that the issue is guns not baseball bats even a simpleton knows that he stands a better chance of surviving an attack with a baseball bat certainly of outrunning a bat wielding assailant even a simpleton knows a baseball bat is considered a deadly weapon if one cannot run away e g old infirm even middle aged if the assailant is younger a handgun is the most effective means of defense you won t even have to fire a shot of the time as for knives see my earlier post i d much rather face a knife than a gun thanks fortunately the best defense against a knife isn t another knife anyone trained in unarmed self defense won t have much of a problem disarming a knife assailant untrained in knife assault which probably means of knife assailants any real streetfighter and there are lots of them with or without a knife will kick the living sh out of most people trained in unarmed self defense for the majority of people a gun is the most effective form of self defense al standard disclaimer
talk.politics.guns	re nazi memoribilia in apr raid dell com mikepb lupus dell com michael p brininstool writes swatikas were also common in american indian markings painted walls etc is it the swastika that is bad just want to back this up with a personal anecdote my grandparents have a navajo rug made in the s which they received in trade from the weaver while living in flagstaff arizona the decorative motif consists of large black swastikas one in each corner what s more the color scheme is black white and red to the casual glance it would undoubtedly appear to be a nazi relic of some kind yet they owned it ten years before hitler and the national socialists came to power as i recall they took it down in the s and didn t feel quite right about putting it back up until the s it still draws comments from those who don t know what it is ccm christopher c may u of ariz coll of medicine cmay ccit arizona edu do your part for liberty teach your children to hate big government do you care about freedom dreams may have inspired it and wishes promoted it but only war and weapons have made it yours robert ardrey armaque in armatos sumere jura sinunt ovid the wise man s understanding inclineth him toward his right hand but a fool s heart turneth him to the left ecclesiastes christopher c may u of ariz coll of medicine cmay ccit arizona edu do your part for liberty teach your children to hate big government
talk.politics.guns	re nazi memoribilia in article cmay helium cmay helium gas uug arizona edu christopher c may writes in apr raid dell com mikepb lupus dell com michael p brininstool writes swatikas were also common in american indian markings painted walls etc is it the swastika that is bad just want to back this up with a personal anecdote my grandparents have a navajo rug made in the s which they received in trade from the weaver while living in flagstaff arizona the decorative motif consists of large black swastikas one in each corner what s more the color scheme is black white and red to the casual glance it would undoubtedly appear to be a nazi relic of some kind yet they owned it ten years before hitler and the national socialists came to power as i recall they took it down in the s and didn t feel quite right about putting it back up until the s it still draws comments from those who don t know what it is having lived played and worked on and near the navajo reservation for a number of years i can confirm this is an ancient pattern found in petroglyphs dated to years old also the indians never stopped making rugs with this pattern they just stopped selling them after the nazi s pre empted the swastika note also that the indian versions use both clockwise and counter clockwise swastikas ob guns it s the rare navaho family that doesn t own a rifle they remember being relocated by the us army and don t intend to do it again the hopi on the other hand have a dislike for weapons from my experience perhaps they just hide them better from strangers kirk hays nra life seventh generation the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing edmund burke
talk.politics.guns	national crime survey well i dropped by the library yesterday and picked up back copies of the national crime survey in an effort to examine what it said about self defense with a firearm i haven t ground through much in the way of numbers yet but a couple of things jumped out at me first only and specify the type of weapon used in self defense and refer only to weapon the second is that while assaults rose about from to w gun defenses reported fell by almost unless there s an explanation for this i m tempted to mark it as a reporting problem and as such going ahead with any examination of the numbers would be a waste of time anybody have an idea what might have cause a real difference and not just a reporting difference the survey doesn t appear to have changed significantly between and david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu
talk.politics.guns	re do they really believe in article apr colorado edu ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu a j teel writes q do you think that hic et al really believe that the laws that they are trying to get passed are for the good or are they just lying through their teeth and trying to disarm the populace i think that hci people honestly believe that passing more gun control laws will be in the best interests of public safety why do i think this because i used to buy the hci line during my freshman year their line made so much sense only people who need guns should be able to get them and the people who need them are the police and other elites unfortunately for us this position is highly emotional and not well thought out they never stop to think that hci s position basically says that the non elite are incompetents that s you and me folks and that the second amendment has absolutely nothing to do with hunting or other legitimate uses which excludes overthrowing tyrannical governments and defending yourself when the police have proven they can t protect you we all know that the end result regardless of the intention will be to have a much easier to subdue population for the un nwo this is definitely a motivation of many in power but i wonder to what degree this is planned vs just duped every pro control person i ve talked to is always left stumped when i simply argue the facts of gun control that it has yet to be proven to lower crime rates and weapons terminology and i m no expert but explaining exactly how an evil semiautomatic weapon really works does wonders i hvae personally found well reasoned arguments to be most effective against the emotional pro control people the trick is to get them to realize that the second amendment exists not for hunters but for the oppressed and the terrorized daryl daryl biberdorf n gjm d biberdorf tamu edu sola gratia sola fide sola scriptura
talk.politics.guns	re gun control proud to be a canuck frank crary fcrary ucsu colorado edu wrote in article pqsruinniae hp col col hp com dduff col hp com dave duff writes the swiss population is and well was far larger than that i think your question should be losing sleep over a million expert riflemen certainly he could have conquered switzerland but a million armed militiamen especially in a mountainous area where tanks effectiveness is limited would have made it a real pain the question a conqueror would ask is is it worth the trouble the more difficult an invasion is the more likely the answer would be no certainly a million riflemen as opposed to a professional army of only ten or twenty thousand the best a country the size of switzerland could support makes invasions more difficult hitler invaded yugoslavia and occupied it the mountainous portions were sometimes patrolled by the wermacht but they were certainly not in control there were two major native factions opposing each other and the germans it was basically useless to the germans no production and a drain on their resources a armored division and a couple of infantry divisions which if my memory is correct were kind of stuck there up until the allies accepted their surrender i think that the allies also let the germans keep some of their weapons for self defense unitil they were able to get to the lowlands away from the resistance factions this is from memory and it is unreliable dale farmer
talk.politics.guns	re i believe in gun control in article c vg f kx apollo hp com nelson p apollo hp com peter nelson writes cj cleveland freenet edu john w redelfs writes i believe in gun control how about you i believe in gun control too assuming by gun control you mean always being able to hit your target peter or how about the clint eastwood line in pink cadillac i believe in gun control if there s a gun around i wanna be the one controlling it al standard disclaimer
talk.politics.guns	re lavishly funded gun epidemic propaganda campaign to commence in article c txek fcq magpie linknet com manes magpie linknet com steve manes writes morris the cat rats cbnewsc cb att com wrote well as neal knox of the firearms coalition points out the full force of the anti gun ruling class their multi millions their polling organizations their schools their news media their entertainment media the entertainment media a force of the anti gun ruling class is this the same media that s made billions producing films and television that glorify guns and gun users or is that another anti gun media you ve got to be kidding i m afraid he isn t they are a hypocritical lot al standard disclaimer
talk.politics.guns	re gun control proud to be a canuck in article pqsruinniae hp col col hp com dduff col hp com dave duff writes does anyone really believe the swiss have had no war within their borders because every adult male owns a rifle i m a great admirer of the swiss but years of peace on their turf has zilch to do with gun ownership can you picture hitler with panzers and focke wulfs poised on the border losing sleep over a few thousand expert rifleman not just because of the riflemen they also have many hard bunkers in the mountains that would be nearly impossible to penetrate as for tanks they would be rather useless in such mountainous terrain hitler stayed out of switzerland because the swiss run the money in this world gee that s a new one he thought it was a different ethnic group since hitler was determined to control at the least all of europe do you think he gave a damn about international monetary concerns also there s a lot of gold in swiss vaults don t you think he new that if he could have he would have taken switzerland however crazy as he was he wasn t totally stupid it would have cost him a hell of a lot to take switzerland with no guarantee that an invasion would be successful he probably figured or his generals did when he was listening to them that it wasn t worth the cost al standard disclaimer
talk.politics.guns	re gun control in article c l bgo magpie linknet com manes magpie linknet com steve manes writes i would be surprised if there weren t contrary studies i might add that sloan and kellerman was endorsed by the police departments of both seattle and vancouver and is considered by most of the references i have at hand the most exhaustive study of its kind even by those who take issue with some of the essay s conclusions s k s statistics speak largely for themselves without postulate and i might add vitamin c has been endorsed by a nobel laureate as a panacea for almost everything from the common cold to cancer in order to compare violent crime trends s k compared all violent crime categories from simple assault through various mechanisms of homicide wait a minute s k did not compare trends if they did they would have seen that the advent of canada s gun law had no effect on homicides total or handgun without a pre vs post comparison one cannot speculate as to the utility of anything all they have is a correlation and correlation does not prove causality if your point is that non whites commit more handgun crimes than whites then yours is the dubious assumption conventional social theory is that economic status not color is the primary motivating factor for crime especially violent crime what s your point anyway that white people are more responsible gun owners should we assume that it s a coincidence that there are comparitively fewer white people earning below the poverty line and living in tenement neighborhoods where most violent crime occurs hold it again you dismiss a point about demographics then you ask about socio economic demographics very slick differences between the two cities in the permit regulations render these two numbers strictly noncomparable on the contrary it s these differences that are the very basis of the study the easy availability of legal handguns in seattle and the much more difficult restricted weapons permit required in vancouver once again correlation does not prove causality looking at pre vs post data the canadian gun law had no effect not so cook measures suicides and assaultive homicides with firearms against a survey based estimate of the number of legal and illegal guns in circulation within a city sir if you were a canadian and owned a gun before the restrictive gun laws were passed and decided to hide it rather than turn it in would you answer truthfully a question about gun ownership from someone who calls writes or asks you on the street that is one problem with surveys nobody will answer an incriminating question another is that people will often tell you what they think you want to here again your author misses the core issue that vancouver citizens are prohibited from purchasing handguns on the basis of self defense they don t have a choice in the matter does that mean no vancouver citizens have handguns i think not you are discounting guns purchased beforehand and guns purchased for purposes other than self defense which can also be used for defense hmmm sounds like your author might like a bumper sticker that reads guns don t kill people black people kill people honestly his conjectures backed up by zero evidence zero studies and even less common sense aren t worth the considerable time it must have taken you to type in his assumptions look frighteningly close to those pseudo scientific studies that the white supremist assholes love the crap that takes published statistics twisted around in an attempt to prove the inherent criminal nature of black people he makes valid points about demographic differences you then resort to the kind of argument that the politically correct movement often uses to stifle any debate nice real nice this author s essay contains independent study upon which to base his conclusions just some strained disjointed statistical discourse attempting to blame seattle s murder rate on blacks one doesn t have to produce his own data in order to point out the flaws in the methodology and conclusions of another s study again you resort to pc tactics al standard disclaimer
talk.politics.guns	re another nytimes yellow sheet editorial in article pmol innod gap caltech edu arc cco caltech edu aaron ray clements writes thanks to the n r a the a t f is prohibited from researching the effectiveness of using taggants in explosives taggants are a cheap and technologically feasible microscopic additive that would help investigators at crime scenes like the world trade center bombing trace the explosives involved i want this man to tell me how in the hell you can take the explosives used in the wtc bombing considering that the consensus seems to be that the explosive was a fertilizer based one proper counter to this claim forensic analysis of the wtc bomb by means of taggants would have been as impossible as semantic analysis of nyt editorials by means of taggants the difficulty in both cases being to have persuaded the bull to consume the taggants before production of either item cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card jason kratz u uicvm uic edu writes pa utkvm utk edu david veal says jason kratz u uicvm uic edu writes don t be silly of course you can the police have everything the gangs have and then some plus they ve got access to the national guard via the governor if things get too rough that s tanks for those of you who ve never seen them at play of course they ve got rifles and helicopters and as far as fully automatic weapons you can be a lot better armed if you want to hit what you aim at what seems to be happening here is the situation getting totally blown out of proportion in my post i was referring to your regular patrolman in a car cruising around the city vs gang members of course the police have access to the things that you mentioned but do they use tanks and such all of the time of course they don t and that s the point i was trying to make every day when i go out to lunch i always see cops coming in the majority that i see are still carrying revolvers not that there is anything wrong with a revolver but if you re a cop that is up against some gang member with a couple of automatics in his coat i mean semi auto handguns you re going to be at a disadvantage even with training how so i think you re making assumptions here that might not necessarily be true my personal choice would be a semi auto but revolvers are just as effective if not more so i have been at a shooting range where gang gang members were practicing shooting they were actually practicing taking out their guns as quick as possible and shooting at the target and they weren t doing too badly either relevancy please you sound shocked but that hardly proves anything the university cops here who are are state cops are armed better than the chicago police it seems most state cops are i don t know where you are originally from david but you live in tennesse and i live in chicago and see this crap everyday on the news and in the papers i think the situation is just a tad different here than there wait doesn t chicago have serious gun control if so why do the police need all that firepower in the first place sarcasm alert all the patrol cars i ve seen around here have shotguns clamped to the dash board imho that s all the police need to outgun just about anything jason the crystal wind is the storm and the storm is data and the data is life the player s litany from the long run by d k moran steiner jupiter cse utoledo edu
talk.politics.guns	letter to a liberal colleague l neil smith posted by cathy smith for l neil smith letter to a liberal colleague author s note adrian name changed to protect the guilty and the author are science fiction novelists who once worked with the same editor at a famous new york publishing house dear adrian i m way behind schedule on my current book again so this reply to your note criticizing the recent magazine interview i gave and generally attacking gun ownership will necessarily consist mostly of assertions you re free to believe or not i can back with evidence and logic i ve neither time nor energy to present now i ve written fully on this topic before and will again in the future when i do i ll make sure you get copies there are many arguments i might make from the futility and danger of delegating self defense to the police see don kates in the jan wall street journal to the real effect of prohibition shifting consumers from newly outlawed handguns or semiautomatic rifles to items like sawed off shotguns or homemade bombs but i ll limit myself here to commenting on the newspaper clipping you sent with your note first the freedom to own and carry the weapon of your choice is a natural fundamental and inalienable human individual civil and constitutional right subject neither to the democratic process nor to arguments grounded in social utility second publication of some latter day scientific study doesn t alter the fact that the gun prohibitionists i discussed in my interview annoying you so much in the process were lying third the freedom to own and carry the weapon of your choice is a natural fundamental and inalienable human individual civil and constitutional right subject neither to the democratic process nor to arguments grounded in social utility fourth as often happens with these things the study doesn t support the gun prohibitionists original numerical contentions anyway but simply adds a new layer of spurious claims to an older body of lies omissions and distortions fifth the freedom to own and carry the weapon of your choice is a natural fundamental and inalienable human individual civil and constitutional right subject neither to the democratic process nor to arguments grounded in social utility sixth the fact that gun prohibitionists have been caught lying on countless occasions carl bakal author of no right to keep and bear arms even confessed to it publicly makes the value of this present study dubious to say the least seventh the freedom to own and carry the weapon of your choice is a natural fundamental and inalienable human individual civil and constitutional right subject neither to the democratic process nor to arguments grounded in social utility eighth given your own lifelong service as a federal bureaucrat not to mention the cynical sophistication of your fiction you should be better aware than most people how progress in designing studies to prove whatever you want outstrips our ability to collect meaningful data a case in point we might agree on is the fact that it took another kind of prohibitionist or years to create studies proving that pornography causes crime more naive and probably more honest efforts in the s and s clearly indicate the contrary ninth the freedom to own and carry the weapon of your choice is a natural fundamental and inalienable human individual civil and constitutional right subject neither to the democratic process nor to arguments grounded in social utility tenth another reason to doubt all such studies is that human behavior as the austrian school of economics demonstrates is far too complex and unpredictable to be meaningfully quantified the attempt to do so and then create public policy based on the resulting pseudo information is wrecking our civilization eleventh the freedom to own and carry the weapon of your choice is a natural fundamental and inalienable human individual civil and constitutional right subject neither to the democratic process nor to arguments grounded in social utility twelfth the study is also worthless because it incorporates figures for suicide which is not necessarily a tragedy but basically another individual right sometimes with ancillary social benefits if anything perhaps suicide intervention should be a criminal offense thirteenth and finally the national rifle association officials quoted in the article whatever their shortcomings and they are many are correct in this instance the study is meaningless because the freedom to own and carry the weapon of your choice is a natural fundamental and inalienable human individual civil and constitutional right subject neither to the democratic process nor to arguments grounded in social utility and because of that adrian even if the study were valid it wouldn t deter me from a lifelong personal objective of seeing that anyone can own any weapon he or she prefers and carry it however whenever and wherever he or she desires without asking anybody s permission in this i m ably assisted by gun prohibitionists themselves whose yawping invariably moves previously unarmed people to go out and buy their first gun while they still can before the gun control act most of the shooting fraternity viewed handguns incorrectly as it turned out as inaccurate ineffective toys there probably weren t six million of them in the whole country now thanks to kennedy metzenbaum the bradys and their ilk america s greatest sporting goods sales team we probably manufacture at least that many every year the fascinating datum is that handgun control et al are perfectly aware of this so i guess you ll have to ask them yourself what their real motives are look gun making isn t an arcane or difficult art and by the way it s easier to make a fully automatic weapon than a semiautomatic the fact that i can still obtain my own weapon of preference the self loading pistol is the only thing which keeps me from pursuing this further even if it were difficult there are already a quarter billion firearms in america with an estimated half life of years possibly more for stainless steel guns are gonna be around a long time adrian whether you like it or not as for me to paraphrase elmer keith regardless of what the law provides or any court decides i m always going to be armed and i will always work to see that others are as well the bad news is that there are thousands more perhaps even hundreds of thousands where i come from we can t be stopped by passing laws we can only be forced to arm ourselves and others secretly and given both the practical and alleged differences between full automatics and semiautomatics perhaps more efficiently so what s the point l neil smith author the probability broach the crystal empire henry martyn and forthcoming pallas lever action bbs fidonet libertarian second amendment caucus nra life member my opinions are of course my own
talk.politics.guns	re ban all firearms in article apr sco com allanh sco com allan j heim writes papresco undergrad math uwaterloo ca paul prescod drugs are banned please tell me when this supply will dry up drugs are easier to manufacture easier to smuggle easier to hide no comparison then let s use another example alcoholic beverages bottles of whiskey are larger heavier and more fragile than bags of drugs barrels and kegs are larger and heavier still and are difficult to manipulate yet a lot of people managed to get very rich off of the smuggling of booze into this country during the years of prohibition there was a demand so an entire industry formed to supply it if alcohol were again banned today it would be much more difficult to manage a large scale smuggling operation the cops now rank just a narrow notch below the military in communications intelligence gathering and firepower in a similar vein the amount of marijuana smuggled into this country has greatly decreased this is because its value per pound is very low when compared to cocaine or heroin it s simply not worth the risk it s uneconomical now most reefer is domestic there is less pressure on the domestic producer showy raids notwithstanding and thus it is economical of note though domestic reefer is now very strong so a small volume goes a long way you cannot make alcohol stronger than proof not a good dollar pound deal firearms tend to fall into this low dollar pound area it would not be economic to smuggle them in all production would have to be local there are not all that many people who have both the skill and motivation to assemble worthwhile firearms from scratch high ranking crime figures could obtain imported uzis and such but the average person and average thug would be lucky to get a zip gun and would pay through the nose for it
talk.politics.guns	re that silly outdated bill was re koresh and miranda i wrote nice strawman indeed the discussion is not about whether there were tanks used in sixties riots instead it is about whether those tanks fired their main guns in one of those riots you claim they did that claim is ludicrous awesley replied i repeated what i had been told under what context i had heard it supporting the claim that tanks were indeed used in detroit in the issue has never been whether tanks were used in detroit in it has been whether they fired their main guns you did not merely claim that tanks were used you claimed that they fired their main guns to suppress sniper fire and that they were quite effective at this you continue to back away from this claim and defend something else that nobody is disputing awesley went on i spent a few minutes in a library today found their computer was down and they don t have a card catalog anyway it took about minutes to find this in nightmare in detroit a rebellion and it s victims by sauter and hines on page telling of the death of tonia blanding age when the tank was fired upon by snipers it turned in the direction the shots came from the fifty caliber machine gun mounted on the tank belched fire into the buildings after a short round into the front of the buildings the tank guns spit again tearing apart huge holes out of the side of the apartment well it s not the main gun well it s not the main gun gee that s only the entire point are you now going to admit that you were wrong i wrote will i see any pictures of tanks firing their main guns will i see pictures of buildings damaged by the shells will i read the reports of the tank fire i ll bet you dollar to doughnuts i won t it will take more than second hand accounts from a few old national guard sergeants shooting the shit to convince me that tanks shelled american cities in the sixties awesley replied well if you bothered to read them it wouldn t take long at all to find reports of tank fire although not necessarily of the main guns i will never read of tanks firing their main guns in detroit in the riots there is simply no way that such an event could have taken place without it being common knowledge even years later the american military firing shells from tanks in american cities on blacks would have been big news awesley goes on you can also read of the troops using grenade launchers to fire fragmentary grenades i doubt that as well to fire concussion grenades perhaps to fire tear gas certainly but you would be perfectly willing to let us believe they fired frags wouldn t you since it makes your other claim seem more plausible and on i don t expect to convince you you ll have to open your mind and eyes and actually do a little research to be convinced one way or the other let me know what you find i already know what you found nothing if i claimed that the marines used f s to launch rockets at buildings in trenton new jersey would you believe me would you suspend judgment until you had a chance to research it or would your bullshit filters kick in if tanks had fired their main guns in detroit people would have been screaming about it for the past two and half decades i would know about it unless you also claim that the national guard managed to cover it up if your mind is open enough to believe that well good for you i prefer to live in reality and here in reality i find it hard to believe that those tanks even had any shells much less fired them john l scott
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card in u uicvm uic edu jason kratz u uicvm uic edu writes deleted and as far as fully automatic weapons you can be a lot better armed if you want to hit what you aim at what seems to be happening here is the situation getting totally blown out of proportion in my post i was referring to your regular patrolman in a car cruising around the city vs gang members of course the police have access to the things that you mentioned but do they use tanks and such all of the time of course they don t and that s the point i was trying to make every day when i go out to lunch i always see cops coming in the majority that i see are still carrying revolvers not that there is anything wrong with a revolver but if you re a cop that is up against some gang member with a couple of automatics in his coat i mean semi auto handguns you re going to be at a disadvantage even with training i have been at a shooting range where gang gang members were practicing shooting they were actually practicing taking out their guns as quick as possible and shooting at the target and they weren t doing too badly either the university cops here who are are state cops are armed better than the chicago police it seems most state cops are define armed better go shoot a revolver and a semi auto like the colt does one fires faster than the other nope aside from which faster rate of fire is usually not desirable sure it makes the other guys duck for cover but just you trying hitting anything with a thompson in hose mode this is why the military is limiting it s m now to round burst fire simple semi auto would be better but the troops like to be able to rock and roll even if it is wasteful of ammo something often in short supply when the enemy is plentiful a revolver is equally capable as a semi auto in the same caliber a revolver also has the advantage that if it misfires you just pull the trigger again a double action revolver almost all of them can be hand cocked first but will fire merely by pulling the trigger a misfire in a revolver merely means you must pull the trigger again to rotate to the next round a revolver can be carried with the th chamber empty and under the hammer for maximum safety but still can be drawn and fired with an easy motion even one handed speedloaders for a revolver allow reloads almost as fast as magazines on semi autos can be faster depending on users a misfire in a semi auto will require you to clear a jammed shell first time spent which can be fatal and a vital second or so is often lost as you realize hey it s jammed before starting to do anything about clearing it most semi autos must have the slide worked to chamber the first round and cock the hammer some police carry their semi autos with the chamber loaded and hammer cocked but a safety engaged i do not consider this safe however you must trade off safety to get the same speed of employment as a revolver there are some double action semi autos out there but the complexity of operation of many of them requires more training some police departments switched to glocks and then started quietly switching many officers back to the old revolvers too many were having accidents partly due to the poor training they received not that glocks require rocket scientists but some cops are baffled by something as complex as the timer on a vcr anyone who goes anyone saying that the criminals obviously outgun the police don t know nothing about firearms turn off cops and hunter and pay attention i do not seek here to say semi autos are junk merely that assuming they are better for all jobs is stupid a cop with a revolver on his hip and a shotgun in the rack is more than equipped for anything short of a riot gun control is hitting what you aim at if you whip out a wonder nine and fire real fast you may find you don t hit anything good controlled fire from a revolver is more likely to get you a hit i own a mm beretta myself but consider it inferior as a carry weapon to something like the ruger security six revolver if i haven t hit what i m aiming at in the first shots something is quite seriously wrong somewheres while i might like having the backup capacity of those extra shots in certain cases overwhelmingly the of shots fired in criminal encounters is less than what do crooks overwhelmingly use in crime why the same nice simple revolvers that the police often use well actually some police prefer the much heftier magnum but anyway obplea don t flame me i prefer semi autos for most things but they introduce unneccessary complications to something as nerve wracking as an abrupt encounter with a lone criminal if everything had gone as planned everything would have been perfect batf spokesperson on cnn regarding failed raid attempt in tx
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card in u uicvm uic edu jason kratz u uicvm uic edu writes deleted the university cops here who are are state cops are armed better than the chicago police it seems most state cops are i don t know where you are originally from david but you live in tennesse and i live in chicago and see this crap everyday on the news and in the papers i think the situation is just a tad different here than there which crap the ridiculous assertions that uzis are mowing down cops right and left the assertions that dialing should be the proper and only option available to the law abiding citizens a factoid cops were killed in the whole country last year this is down from around in the early s wow a real explosion in cop killings there eh if everything had gone as planned everything would have been perfect batf spokesperson on cnn regarding failed raid attempt in tx
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card in article qiebiinn c cae cad gatech edu vincent cad gatech edu vincent fox writes in u uicvm uic edu jason kratz u uicvm uic edu writes deleted the university cops here who are are state cops are armed better than the chicago police it seems most state cops are i don t know where you are originally from david but you live in tennesse and i live in chicago and see this crap everyday on the news and in the papers i think the situation is just a tad different here than there which crap the ridiculous assertions that uzis are mowing down cops right and left the assertions that dialing should be the proper and only option available to the law abiding citizens a factoid cops were killed in the whole country last year this is down from around in the early s wow a real explosion in cop killings there eh well if we re going to discuss being a police officer in america today the fbi lists police officers killed feloniously and accidentally in that s apparently everybody at all levels year officers killed rate police officers includes one officer in mariana islands includes one officer each in guam and mariana islands includes one officer in guam and two in foreign locations includes one officer in american samoas and two in foreign countries includes one officer in guam and one federal officer killed in peru god i love the information age david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
talk.politics.guns	re ban all firearms in article apr gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes in article apr sco com allanh sco com allan j heim writes papresco undergrad math uwaterloo ca paul prescod drugs are banned please tell me when this supply will dry up drugs are easier to manufacture easier to smuggle easier to hide no comparison then let s use another example alcoholic beverages bottles of whiskey are larger heavier and more fragile than bags of drugs barrels and kegs are larger and heavier still and are difficult to manipulate yet a lot of people managed to get very rich off of the smuggling of booze into this country during the years of prohibition there was a demand so an entire industry formed to supply it if alcohol were again banned today it would be much more difficult to manage a large scale smuggling operation the cops now rank just a narrow notch below the military in communications intelligence gathering and firepower in a similar vein the amount of marijuana smuggled into this country has greatly decreased this is because its value per pound is very low when compared to cocaine or heroin it s simply not worth the risk it s uneconomical now most reefer is domestic there is less pressure on the domestic producer showy raids notwithstanding and thus it is economical here s a question if most marijuana is domestic and producing it here is economical why would we expect it to be imported of note though domestic reefer is now very strong so a small volume goes a long way you cannot make alcohol stronger than proof not a good dollar pound deal yet it was done done quite successfully for a number of years somebody thought it was worth the risk firearms tend to fall into this low dollar pound area it would not be economic to smuggle them in your assumption is that this low dollar pound area is sufficiently low as to make gun running unprofitable on what do you base this and given that smuggling channels are already established and given the economies of scale would it really add significantly more expense to start smuggling firearms especially considering doing so would be less hazardous in terms of getting caught than drugs all production would have to be local now that was a jump in any case define local it s a big country there are not all that many people who have both the skill and motivation to assemble worthwhile firearms from scratch high ranking crime figures could obtain imported uzis and such but the average person and average thug would be lucky to get a zip gun and would pay through the nose for it wow you gotta love the speculation as i posted before we import billions upon billions of raw ores across the mexican border not only that but ships come in and out of u s harbors every day full stuff and customs doesn t even have the extra advantage of being able to sniff them out i d be willing to wager that a shipload of handguns would be worth more than a shipload of raw ore and you re virtually guaranteed to get it past customs because they d have to hand search every hold of every ship which came through it s not simply a matter of how much money are they worth but how much more money are they worth than other goods based on the likelihood of being caught less money than drugs but also a safer thing to smuggle david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
talk.politics.guns	re the pill for deer no hunting in article qfrhbinno cae cad gatech edu vincent cad gatech edu vincent fox says this measure as it will prevent the evil bambi killers from hunting and another will fight it for the interference with nature that it is such a measure would also have another benefit it would relieve the various states of the thorny problem of what to do with the hundreds of millions of dollars hunters pour into the economy annually i m sure that to attain sure a lofty humane liberal and ecologically not to mention politically correct goal the environmental and animal rights groups individuals supporting such a measure would be more than willing to add their names to a list of supporters seeking increased taxation to replace these lost revenues i am equally confident that these same entities given their noteworthy record in the area of social responsibility and respect for private property would feel morally and ethically bound to raise the necessary funds to acquire the hundreds of thousands of acres of land now held in private hands solely for use as private hunting preserves by the landowner s to do less than this would place these same groups individuals in the ethically untenable to say nothing of environmentally and politically incorrect position of sanctioning the logging and subsequent development and urbanization of these former private hunting lands which would no longer be useable by or of any benefit to the landowner s in such a capacity w k gorman
talk.politics.guns	re non lethal alternatives to handguns in article apr watson ibm com mjp vnet ibm com michael j phelps writes in article shepardc ftls netcom com shepard netcom com mark shepard writes how effective are personal defense products like mace pepper spray tasers and other non lethal stun devices compared to handguns any statistics on s and types in use these products seem very attractive compared to handguns because being non lethal they are more forgiving of accident or mistakes wrongful shooting such as the yoshi hattori case and allow the justice system to deal with the criminal rather than criminals simply being dead which has a certain vigilante feel which seems to bother anti gun people the more forgiving nature also has its down side it allows a criminal to use them w o the adw assault with a deadly weapon charge they also can have lethal or dangerous side effects some people have violent reactions to mace pepper sprays stun guns can harm people with weak hearts people have suffered eye damage from mace the stuff that is available now is less concentrated than it used to be some of the spray propellents are flammable the arguments i see against these non lethal weapons compared to handguns are lack of range lack of stopping power or effectiveness and limited ammo true how about cost sprays using any of the spray based eg mace pepper indoors is bound to affect anyone else in the room like the victim due to the nature of the stuff using the sprays outdoors in any sort of breeze mitigates its effectiveness from reading various articles it appears that mace especially the mace available to citizens is pretty ineffective on people under the influence of drugs or alcohol pepper spray appears to be more effective but has the inherent spray delivery problem it still does not appear to be anything better than a distraction that might buy you time to run like hell if you can consider that running like hell isn t always a viable solution for example if you are dressed in boots and the assailent is dressed in sneakers you might have a tough time outrunning them tasars and stun guns require contact with skin for max effectiveness a jacket like a leather one will mitigate its effectiveness the user must be extremely close to the assailent that puts them at a considerable risk of injury the user must keep the stun gun in contact with the assailent for some non negligible period of time tasar darts can be pulled out consider the problem a small women would have keeping a stun gun in contact with a average size man for any length of time w o sustaining serious injury have any anti gun groups suggested non lethal weapons to counter the pro gun argument that people will be left defenseless i haven t heard of any generally they contend that people don t need to or aren t able to defend themselves and what legal restrictions licensing apply to non lethal devices civilian ownership of stun guns is frequently illegal ny the sprays are also illegal in some states believe it or not they are still illegal in ny although about half the state thinks they are legal i believe that ny almost legalized them i have heard that the reason they didn t was due to their ineffectiveness i feel that the sprays are better than nothing but only if the user does not believe the hype this ll drop em in their tracks stuff and uses it as a diversion o n l y marks mark shepard shepard netcom com portola valley ca michael phelps external mjp vnet ibm com internal mjp bwa kgn ibm com mjp at kgnvmy and last but not least a disclaimer these opinions are mine what about guns with non lethal bullets like rubber or plastic bullets would those work very well in stopping an attack doug holland
talk.politics.guns	re high power assault guns in article apr stortek com vojak icebucket stortek com bill vojak writes alaska with uzi rnd magazine and big polar bear i d make that big mad and hungry with cubs nearby polar bear drew betz gozer idbsu edu brought into your terminal from the free state of idaho when you outlaw rights only outlaws will have rights spook fodder fema nsa clinton gore insurrection nsc semtex neptunium terrorist cia mi mi kgb deuterium
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card in article pa utkvm utk edu pa utkvm utk edu david veal says stuff deleted me what seems to be happening here is the situation getting totally blown out of proportion in my post i was referring to your regular patrolman in a car cruising around the city vs gang members of course the police have access to the things that you mentioned but do they use tanks and such all of the time of course they don t and that s the point i was trying to make every day when i go out to lunch i always see cops coming in the majority that i see are still carrying revolvers not that there is anything wrong with a revolver but if you re a cop that is up against some gang member with a couple of automatics in his coat i mean semi auto handguns you re going to be at a disadvantage even with training david this is the arms race fallacy that somehow bigger guns make an individual safer the problem is that for each corresponding level of offensive power the is not an automatic level of defense increase the problem is that there s a sort of lethality threshold that once you get past you re only talking about a metter of degree regardless of what cops are up against there s really no reason for the average beat cop to have anything bigger than a pistol on him as a personal weapon and maybe a rifle and a shotgun in the cruiser i mean think about it carrying a monster pistol or sub machinegun doesn t make the cop any less wounded if somebody shoots him a lot of police departenments have switched to semi automatics as better more reliable weapons and more stopping power but there s a point of diminishing returns this is a very very good point who cares what kind of gun you ve got if you re lying on the ground dead and as far as automatics go any gang member carrying around a couple of automatics an incredible rarity is going to be far more of a menace to himself and innocent bystanders than anything he might be tryinh to aim at one auto is hard enough to control anybody who could control two is going to get the police officer regardless of what the police officer is armed with more stuff deleted mostly mine my question is this what would a police officer gain from having a sub machinegun or similar personal weapon that he already doesn t have with a mm or mm semi automatic pistol i don t see as how the police should be hosing around full auto fire nor has my experience with police officers or the stats regarding how many police officers get killed by other cops made me feel such would be a good idea precise fire is far more preferable nor should they using bigger guns most standard sidearms have more then sufficient stopping power when properly applied all more powerful weapons would do is make the likelihood of death higher without really giving police significantly more options another very good point that is well taken it seems that when lots of lead is flying either the cops or the gangs someone innocent always gets caught in the crossfire david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al all points made above are well taken i guess i am in the mindset of having more makes it better which is obviously not the correct mindset to take in this discussion now that i think about the situation a little more carefully i see your point exactly david and i wholeheartedly sp agree like i said i m just assuming that more bullets and or bigger bullets is better once again though i want to state that i am a pro gun individual and do not believe that gun control is really a viable option here in the united states regardless of the drivel that i spout here jason
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card in article qie rinn b cae cad gatech edu vincent cad gatech edu vincent fox says stuff deleted all mine define armed better go shoot a revolver and a semi auto like the colt does one fires faster than the other nope aside from which faster rate of fire is usually not desirable sure it makes the other guys duck for cover but just you trying hitting anything with a thompson in hose mode this is why the military is limiting it s m now to aw come on it worked great in the s or the movie version of the s anyways round burst fire simple semi auto would be better but the troops like to be able to rock and roll even if it is wasteful of ammo something often in short supply when the enemy is plentiful a revolver is equally capable as a semi auto in the same caliber stuff deleted about how revolvers are just as good as semi autos all your points are very well taken and things that i haven t considered as i am not really familiar enough with handguns some police departments switched to glocks and then started quietly switching many officers back to the old revolvers too many were having accidents partly due to the poor training they received not that glocks require rocket scientists but some cops are baffled by something as complex as the timer on a vcr hell a glock is the last thing that should be switched to the only thing that i know about a glock is the lack of a real safety on it sure there is that little thing in the trigger but that isn t too great of a safety anyone who goes anyone saying that the criminals obviously outgun the police don t know nothing about firearms turn off cops and hunter and pay attention i do not seek here to say semi autos are junk merely that assuming they are better for all jobs is stupid a cop with a revolver on his hip and a shotgun in the rack is more than equipped for anything short of a riot actually i don t watch those shows and you re right at least partially i don t know much about handguns i m more familiar with rifles gun control is hitting what you aim at if you whip out a wonder nine and fire real fast you may find you don t hit anything good controlled fire from a revolver is more likely to get you a hit i own a mm beretta myself but consider it inferior as a carry weapon to something like the ruger security six revolver if i haven t hit what i m aiming at in the first shots something is quite seriously wrong somewheres while i might like having the backup capacity of those extra shots in certain cases overwhelmingly the of shots fired in criminal encounters is less than what do crooks overwhelmingly use in crime why the same nice simple revolvers that the police often use well actually some police prefer the much heftier magnum but anyway obplea don t flame me i prefer semi autos for most things but they introduce unneccessary complications to something as nerve wracking as an abrupt encounter with a lone criminal if everything had gone as planned everything would have been perfect batf spokesperson on cnn regarding failed raid attempt in tx no flames here all your points are well taken guess i still have a lot to learn but thanks to this discussion i already am guess i assume too many things like more bullets are better and that sort of thing of course you know what happens when you assume jason
talk.politics.guns	re non lethal alternatives to handguns douglas craig holland holland cs colostate edu writes lostsa crap deleted trim your articles what about guns with non lethal bullets like rubber or plastic bullets would those work very well in stopping an attack last i heard non lethal was a bit of a misnomer for these things jason democrat give us your money we ll solve your problems republican give us your money we ll ignore your problems libertarian keep your money solve your own problems steiner jupiter cse utoledo edu
talk.politics.guns	re the pill for deer no hunting jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes promising field experiments are being done this year in several areas of the country relating to chemical contraceptive baits for deer preliminary data suggests that this will be a cost effective and humane method for preventing over population of habitats preliminary data regarding similar research into kangaroo overpopulation in australia do not in any way support the cost effectiveness of this approach it may be cost effective for deer if you quietly overlook the fact that the net cost to the state of deer hunting is negative i e a profit because the majority of hunters pay for licences the cost comparisons are probably being done assuming that people have to be employed to cull the animals which is not in fact the case you figure people are going to pay for licences to implant contraceptive pellets or spread baits there has been a fair bit of discussion about this here recently because the kangaroo population in the grounds of the governor general s residence has now reached plague proportions despite the whines of the rampant animal libbers the most effective method of controlling the population is still considered to be controlled shooting so now why should we allow hunting to prevent over population of the deer bear whatever sorry but that justification of blood lust is now gone with the wind once mass production of this stuff begins animal populations can be easily managed without a shot being fired this leaves only the fact that some people like to go out in the woods and kill things some people take satisfaction imho legitimate satisfaction in eating food that they have harvested themselves the pleasure derived from hunting is the same as that you get from eating fruit and vegetables grown in your own garden and in general game meat is probably much freer of unpleasant chemicals than what you buy from the butcher or the supermarket that may be a motivation but it cannot now be justified expect peta and like organizations to use this argument to get hunting banned period by cannot now be justified i guess you mean that you personally don t see any justification fine but what makes your opinion so important with no legitimate hunting with the papers filled with stories of senseless murders i guess there won t be a chance in hell of building a case for the rkba that will withstand either public opinion necessity or scientific scrutiny don t give me that silent majority wants guns crap they are and will be silent no votes for rkba no rkba certainly the last point is correct if politicians don t see any votes for themselves in opposing stupid legislation or in developing and supporting measures which might be effective in reducing the incidence of violent crime they won t do these things geoff miller g miller adfa edu au computer centre australian defence force academy
talk.politics.guns	re boston gun buy back from urbin interlan interlan com mark urbin rm just a short thought when you ask the question of the authorities or sponsors of buyback programs whether they will check for stolen weapons and they answer no it s total amnesty please note that the given for each firearm in the boston buy back will not be in cash but money orders how much total amnesty can you get if you leave paper trail behind in the latest case in denver they were giving away tickets to a denver nuggets basketball game how traceable is a money order i don t know haven t used one in years is that even an issue if the weapons aren t checked for being stolen ron
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no writes observations from a naive norwegian yup you said it i admire such honesty guns are made to kill people not to shoot target or to have something more macho than stamps to collect fire an anschutz then come back and talk to us you re letting ignorance and possibly fear cloud your thinking either that or this is sour grapes because we beat you in the olympic shooting events funny you d think biathalon would be a natural sport for the norse it is more easy to kill injure someone with a gun than with a knife or a bat as in baseball precisely that makes them the best method of defense for the citizenry not everybody has the time to train with a gladius you know but for some reason those who prey on others seem to have more free time to extend this a bit further you need only a certain level of competence to beat another with a range weapon getting in their face with a weapon and winning is much more difficult and requires more training time the average citizen just does not have i ve spent a few years practicing with a sword i can take the common person armed with one though self defense isn t the reason i own one my kid sister would have an even chance of beating me gun vs gun with only a month of training that makes firearms much better in our eyes it s not very wise to compare two completely different countries like usa and let s say island on issues like crime and violence excellent point perhaps you aren t so naive after all yes the problem is people committing crimes not the tools beeing used but should be taken into concideration taken into consideration in what respect though quite wrong let s make it a blanket statement for weapons in general this has been taken into consideration we call use of them aggrivated assault assault with a deadly weapon assault with intent to kill attempted murder and a whole host of others and tack on extra prison time we have a very strict gun legislation in norway but until recently it was possible for enyone over years to buy a shotgun shotguns are used mainly for hunting in norway but because it was so easy to accuire one it was the most used gun in crimes in norway i suspect it was about the only weapon available you conquered your land among others a full millenia before we were thought of and shortly thereafter weapons weren t quite so common i suspect that a few world wars made a difference too since in times of emergency weapons tend to be turned in or donated to needy causes i m curious though were the weapons used in the crimes bought shortly before the crime or were they aquired by other means any requirements other than just registering the shotgun and unbelievable the use of guns in crime fell there are now a new law against wearing long knives in public and why should it be allowed come on down to honest erik s used swords here s a slightly used short sword the battlefield supremacy weapon of the eleventh century only with trade in easy financing sorry i couldn t resist you guys still slicing each other with long knives or is this really not a problem what i as an scandinavian have problems to understand is that you americans have a more liberal view on guns and violence than on nudity and sex try showing a bare breast on tv insted of violence and murder i m all for that what gets me is that scandanavians and yes i m only a couple generations off the longship used to be some of the most feared warriors on the planet a mere millenia ago yet now seem to spend their time sitting in spas and doing a bit of topless sunbathing maybe you had a bit more time and a more homogeneous culture to become civilized with yes i know a little american history but is it a civil human right to have an assault gun in your home and or an handgun in your car yes we re too damned violent partially i believe because we are not a homogeneous culture and don t identify ourselves as americans first and foremost i m rather proud of my norwegian and danish heritage whereas i suspect you couldn t care less about that welsh blood in your veins thanks to a raid in ireland back in the time scale and the homogeneous culture are important equally important is a basic philosophical difference in personal versus collective good in america the individual is more important than the masses personal liberties are prized above all this is sadly changing of late but i trust you notice how this call for freedom makes laws that restrict individuals for little collective benefit hateful to americans i d hazard a guess that were america less interested in freedom and personal liberty and more interested in collective good we never would have sent our armed forces anywhere one poor effect of this culture we have is that we re looking out for ourselves and it is quite easy to identify with only a small segment of the population my grandmother tells of being discriminated against back in denmark because she spoke low dane whereas others spoke high dane it was shortly after world war ii as i remember that low dane was abolished so there was one common dialect we cannot fathom such a minor thing being a problem because we have even more obvious means of identifying an outsider the bad english is not my fault it s probably the keyboard software or the quality of the subtext on tv take heart yours is better than of what gets posted by native speakers any helpful hints for our educational system people have this annoying tendency to drop out of school and sell drugs over here and what kind of name is thomas parsli here you can use my great grandfather s before he changed it christian aarskog that s a great one for getting mispronounced i think that s why he changed it i don t think he needs it anymore dan sorenson dod z dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what i read not what i say don t blame them usenet post to exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them
talk.politics.guns	re gun talk legislative update for states lvc cbnews cb att com larry cipriani writes iowa all firearm related bills are dead senate file dealing with off duty police officers carrying concealed remains viable the power of the word processor and a stamp at work the fact that around here the state rep generally lives no more than nine miles from any constituent doesn t hurt either dan sorenson dod z dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what i read not what i say don t blame them usenet post to exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them
talk.politics.guns	re that silly outdated bill was re koresh and miranda in article qibs flk vela acs oakland edu awesley vela acs oakland edu awesley writes in article apr csd newshost stanford edu andy sail stanford edu andy freeman writes i since there was no sniper fire doing nothing was equally effective as was yelling stop that of course if one wants to credit the tanks with stopping non existent sniper fire we might was well credit it with stopping an invasion by martians see firearms violence and civil disorders from sri and sniping incidents a new pattern of violence from brandeis university s lemberg center for the study of violence there was precisely one verified sniper in the riots a drunk firing a pistol out a window actually there was only one confirmed sniper to die in detroit according to sauter hines nightmare in detroit a rebellion it s what sources did sauter and hines use in congressional hearings later the newspaper folk admitted that their reports were completely wrong some of their excuses are understandable while others amount to gross negligence then there s their we lied as far as i know they never did the followup so people other than snipers can shoot firemen if they are shooting at snipers can t help blowing big holes in buildings that don t contain sniper nests or worrying about travelling sniper squads is a complete waste of time interesting just curious they do you believe that tanks did blow big holes in buildings in detroit i don t have any relevant knowledge about the counter sniper tactics or what the govt did with the big war toys that s why i ve only commented on what they couldn t have accomplished no matter what they did nope the sniper fire was coming from other police guard positions the guard certainly needed to learn but i don t agree with the idea that there were no snipers at all from p of sauter hines despite the force of the national guard in alliance with the army troops the snipers did not stop the snipers boldly lay siege to the fifth precent police station and took pot shots at the seventh firemen were under constant harassment from snipers fired from half closed darkened windows in high apartment buildings and from roof tops not in detroit not during the s that s newspaper copy and they admitted later that they were wrong andy
talk.politics.guns	re the pill for deer no hunting in article pa utkvm utk edu pa utkvm utk edu david veal writes in article apr gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes in article apr synapse bms com hambidge bms com writes self defense is a valid reason for rkba the vast majority get through life without ever having to own use or display a firearm you might have missed the u s news world report excerpt i posted it is fairly consistant with other such polls finding that approximately of households have at least one firearm how this translates into individual ownership is questionable but i think it s fairly safe to say that you re wrong about the vast majority ok a near majority actually own firearms but i will still claim that the vast majority never needs to use them or even threaten anyone with them what do they do right or are they just lucky in either case this means the average threat level in this country is rather low besides there are other means of self protection which can be just as effective as firearms please name them the key phrase is can be theories are nice but practicality is more important a taser to chose an exmpale outlawed virtually everywhere can be as effective as a gun under optimal conditions when dealing with your absolute average i think you have weapons on the brain i never said that these alternative means of self protection involved any hardware why are good neighborhoods good it isn t because every person is armed to the teeth it is because of attitude and cooperation in the good neighborhoods the residents make themselves aware of their neighbors and notice when strangers are lurking around good neighborhoods form groups like crime watch to increase this effect and the relative effectiveness of the police when hostiles are arrested the good neighbors step up and say that s the one officer he was robbing mr jones house in short the alternative to firepower is gangs or at least a benificent manifestation of that social cooperative replace lead with flesh the flesh makes a better conversationalist too and you can invite it over for a block party freedoms and rights are not dependent on public opinion necessity or scientific scrutiny new to this planet everything is dependent on either public or political opinion usually political to imagine that inalienable rights are somehow wired into the vast cold cosmos is purest egotism and a dangerous delusion in a very real sense everything the government does is based on public approval if for no other reason than at any particular time there aren t public servants commonly adorning trees but legality and legitimacy also matter if a government s charter makes a rule which the government then violates it is violated the basis for its existance enforcement of its will becomes a matter solely of force of arms oliver north the man is positively worshiped in many all american conservative quarters he and big ron set up a secret government and did all sorts of severely illegal deeds the kind of stuff you and i would be doing twenty to life for yet he walks free this bs happens all the time in fact it happens so much that no one really cares anymore legitimacy is a non issue legality is a non issue so long as we get t bones and our mtv who gives a rats ass no arguments against rkba can withstand scientific scrutiny they don t have to like so many other things the issue is one of perception rather than boring statistics excuse me sir but you were the one suggesting that arguments for rkba would not stand up to scientific scrutiny no i claimed that no one is interested in the statistical aspects of the argument pure emotion like the abortion issue every time some young innocent is gunned down in a drive by every time some kid is murdered for a jacket every time a store clerk is executed for three dollars in change every time some moron kills his wife because she took the last beer from the fridge every time someone hears a bang in the night the rkba dies emotion is hard to argue against but it must be done anyway if emotion is wrong argue away you can t win the stats are not all that clearly behind firearms and just yesterday you claimed they weren t behind them at all the protection factor does not strongly outweigh the mindless mayhem factor operating under the assumption that the same conditions absolutely govern both of them that the expansion of one automatically necessitates the contraction of the other firearms related mindless mayhem will be related to the availibility of firearms if they become scarce and and expensive a different psychology will take hold i think they would be used far less to settle trivial complaints
talk.politics.guns	re the pill for deer no hunting jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes new to this planet everything is dependent on either public or political opinion usually political to imagine that inalienable rights are somehow wired into the vast cold cosmos is purest egotism and a dangerous delusion we hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights that among these are life liberty and the pursuit of happiness declaration of independence july aaron arc cco caltech edu
talk.politics.guns	re ban all firearms as quoted from apr gnv ifas ufl edu by jrm gnv ifas ufl edu firearms tend to fall into this low dollar pound area it would not be economic to smuggle them in all production would have to be local there are not all that many people who have both the skill and motivation to assemble worthwhile firearms from scratch high ranking crime figures could obtain imported uzis and such but the average person and average thug would be lucky to get a zip gun and would pay through the nose for it you don t know much about modern automatic weapons do you just about anybody with basic manufacturing skill can turn out high quality submachineguns a couple of high school shop teachers were recently arrested for building submachineguns in the school shop i suggest that you go to the library and find a copy of smallarms of the world your entire premise is based on non factual assumptions you re like a bunch of over educated new york jewish aclu lawyers fighting to eliminate school prayer from the public schools in arkansas holly silva
talk.politics.guns	re non lethal alternatives to handguns holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes what about guns with non lethal bullets like rubber or plastic bullets would those work very well in stopping an attack doug holland any projectile traveling at or near typical bullet speeds is potentially lethal even blanks which have no projectile can cause death if the muzzle is in close proximity to the victim i have heard of rubber or plastic bullets being used effectively during riot situations where the intent is crowd control rather than close range self defense i ve also seen reports of deaths caused by them the british in northern ireland use of a firearm for self defense is appropriate and lawful only in the gravest of situations at that point i consider deadly lethal force to be a proper reaction and so does the law furthermore use of less effective but still potentially lethal force has its own set of problems it may well take more applications of the less effective force to stop the incident this places all parties at some risk the victim because the attack has not stopped and the assailent since the aggregate damage done by the multiple applications may well be more deadly michael phelps external mjp vnet ibm com internal mjp bwa kgn ibm com mjp at kgnvmy and last but not least a disclaimer these opinions are mine
talk.politics.guns	re the pill for deer no hunting in article apr gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes in article apr synapse bms com hambidge bms com writes the second amendment is about sovereignty not sporting goods perfectly correct but it won t make any difference hmm i beg to differ it will probably make a big difference at some point self defense is a valid reason for rkba the vast majority get through life without ever having to own use or display a firearm besides there are other means of self protection which can be just as effective as firearms thankfully it is true that the majority go through life without having to use a firearm howver there are situations where firearms are the most effective means of self protection what other means do you propose as equally effective freedoms and rights are not dependent on public opinion necessity or scientific scrutiny new to this planet everything is dependent on either public or political opinion usually political to imagine that inalienable rights are somehow wired into the vast cold cosmos is purest egotism and a dangerous delusion new to this country new to political theory alas i was speaking of principle without principle all attempts at republican forms of gov t are futile there are times when public and political opinion are contrary to principle which is why we have a constitution which enumerates gov t powers and presumes certain rights a major reason for this was to prevent a tyranny of the majority no arguments against rkba can withstand scientific scrutiny they don t have to like so many other things the issue is one of perception rather than boring statistics every time some young innocent is gunned down in a drive by every time some kid is murdered for a jacket every time a store clerk is executed for three dollars in change every time some moron kills his wife because she took the last beer from the fridge every time someone hears a bang in the night the rkba dies the stats are not all that clearly behind firearms the protection factor does not strongly outweigh the mindless mayhem factor given society as we now experience it it seems safer to get rid of as many guns as possible that may be an error but enough active voters believe in that course this is exactly why law should be based on reasoned thought not immediate perception of course it doesn t always work that way fortunately while there are no guarantees logic sometimes does prevail and if not there are still means for correction as far as enough active voters are concerned that is still an open question until the vote is made how do you intend to silence rkba supporters talk all you want talk about the good old days when you used to own firearms after a while such talk will take on the character of war stories and no one will be very interested anymore you portray a possible scenario for the future but how will you silence rkba supporters right now as long as public debate is allowed such debate will continue if we allow public debate to be restricted or denied then we will get a gov t we deserve al standard disclaimer
talk.politics.guns	cnn for sale bill vojak bv i read in the paper yestarday that ted turner wants to trim down bv his media holdings and is putting cnn up for sale the potential bv bidder time warner of course sigh just what we need maybe now s the time for us the nra goa ccrtkba saf et al to band together and buy cnn as our voice wouldn t that be sumpin broadcast the truth for a change and be able to air a favorable pro gun item or two olx there is no way they can get over here a maginot ye olde bailey bbs v bis v bis houston texas yob sccsi com home of alt cosuard
talk.politics.guns	re with friends like the paul prescod pontificating pp state edu cathy smith writes pp libertarians oppose both waiting periods and background checks pp or any prerequisite for exercising rights that are supposed to pp be guaranteed pp let me get this straight unlike the other idiots in this newsgroup pp you actually support anybody having unlimited access to guns pp inclucing criminals or would you prohibit them from owning them pp but not from buying them pp you are a supreme idiot you make the other idiots look like mensa members thanks paul for yet another fine example of the holier than thou gun control mindset why don t you add something intelligent to the debate like maybe nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah olx fight crime shoot back ye olde bailey bbs v bis v bis houston texas yob sccsi com home of alt cosuard
talk.politics.guns	re my turn dan sorenson writing ds i d rather not get into the nationalized medical care debate ds here but i find it amazing that criminals often live better than the ds rest of the population in some aspects and that we re paying for ds them to do so as an example in november i had my annual dental here you are somewhat in error in all respects we are paying when we are not paying for their countryclub incarceration we are paying with our lives and belongings as their prey upon what would they practice their nefarious predatory acts if not for the citizens of this country what is amazing to me is the mindset of those who overtly and covertly perpetuate a justice system har that essentially mandates that some of us offer up ourselves as that prey while they suitably insulate themselves from the preyground olx church of crime justice come let us prey ye olde bailey bbs v bis v bis houston texas yob sccsi com home of alt cosuard
talk.politics.guns	re ban all firearms in article apr sco com allanh sco com allan j heim writes papresco undergrad math uwaterloo ca paul prescod drugs are banned please tell me when this supply will dry up drugs are easier to manufacture easier to smuggle easier to hide no comparison then let s use another example alcoholic beverages bottles of whiskey are larger heavier and more fragile than bags of drugs barrels and kegs are larger and heavier still and are difficult to manipulate yet a lot of people managed to get very rich off of the smuggling of booze into this country during the years of prohibition there was a demand so an entire industry formed to supply it i beleive this was the source of the kennedy clan s money so unless there s something i m missing i think your argument that guns won t be smuggled because theyr e more difficult to manufacture smuggle and hide won t wash if enough people want something somebody will try to supply it allan j heim allanh sco com uunet sco allanh jim jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card in article cmm thomasp surt ifi uio no thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no writes observations from a naive norwegian guns are made to kill people not to shoot target or to have something more macho than stamps to collect it is more easy to kill injure someone with a gun than with a knife or a bat as in baseball it s not very wise to compare two completely different countries like usa and let s say island on issues like crime and violence yes the problem is people committing crimes not the tools beeing used but should be taken into concideration only as far as it affects the crime rate we have a very strict gun legislation in norway but until recently it was possible for enyone over years to buy a shotgun shotguns are used mainly for hunting in norway but because it was so easy to accuire one it was the most used gun in crimes the solution was to restrict the sale so it s now necessary to apply and register your shotgun and unbelievable the use of guns in crime fell did the rate of crime fall if not the ban was of no use it is the rate of violent crime that matters not the tools used it s the crime stupid there are now a new law against wearing long knives in public and why should it be allowed apparently that became the weapon of choice after the shotguns were banned after that they ll decide the car of choice is the saab and propose a ban on that what i as an scandinavian have problems to understand is that you americans have a more liberal view on guns and violence than on nudity and sex try showing a bare breast on tv insted of violence and murder yes i know a little american history but is it a civil human right to have an assault gun in your home and or an handgun in your car yes we still trust honest people here for the time being the bad english is not my fault it s probably the keyboard software or the quality of the subtext on tv disclamer not these are the views of all studens at my university all norwegians and probably whole of the universe thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov
talk.politics.guns	a scoop of waco road please your lite posting for the day from rec humor funny in article s adf looking on ca bellas tti com pete bellas writes there is a new ice cream flavor inspired by the incident at waco it s called mount caramel it s full of nuts but you can t get it out of the carton cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	newspapers censoring gun advertisements recently while looking around in traders sporting goods store a very well stocked firearms store i discovered a printed document that was being distributed by the good folks who work there traders btw is located in san leandro ca granted the document may be asking you and i to help out traders but in the big scope of things i feel that we would do all gun owners a favor by helping to this cause anyway here it is newspaper ad censorship are you letting the newspapers tell you how to live your life what s good for you what s not and exercise blatant censorship over what you read in their advertisments the newspapers have now decided to censor gun ads which is why you no longer see the ads that traders san leandro has run for many years these ads were run for the law abiding honest citizens who own firearms for sporting use or self protection they certainly have the right to do so under the second amendment right to bear arms if you are tired of newspapers who run sex and liquor ads galor yet refuse to run legitimate gun ads please send a letter to the editors indicating your displeasure over their censorship doctrine following is a list of bay area newspapers who censor gun ads perhaps you d like to send them your thoughts on this issue oakland tribune daily review alameda times star pob pob oak st oakland ca hayward alameda ca argus tri valley herald san leandro times decoto rd pob w juana ave fremont ca pleasanton ca san leandro ca contra costa times san mateo times san francisco chronicle pob pob mission st walnut creek ca san mateo ca san francisco ca san fran independent san fran examiner san jose mercury news evans ave th st ridder park dr san fran ca san fran ca san jose ca then there are six pages of facts i can not validate these facts and there were no sources but many feel and sound very true here are the topic headlines big media snow job blaming firearms for murder is like blaming hospitals for death i could use the same nazi journalistic technique of cbs and abc to prove that hospitals cause death how nbc cbs and abc have scammed the american people on gun control american tv journalism is based on nazi journalism why tv journalists lie the government with the help of the tv networks has succeeded in playing one group against the other gun laws are unconstitutional american gun laws are based on nazi gun laws the government is trying to devide and conquer the cia wants your firearms and so on for six pages so now we have the media trying help put gun dealers out of business by trying to limit their exposure to potential customers and preventing the customers from reading about sales of ammunition and firearms for sporting hunting or other recreational use let me know if you write to any of these bozos peter d nesbitt air traffic controller pnesbitt mcimail com oakland bay tracon cbr f pilot nra member ccx f s w magnum carrier
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card what seems to be happening here is the situation getting totally blown out of proportion in my post i was referring to your regular patrolman in a car cruising around the city vs gang members of course the police have access to the things that you mentioned but do they use tanks and such all of the time of course they don t and that s the point i was trying to make every day when i go out to lunch i always see cops coming in the majority that i see are still carrying revolvers not that there is anything wrong with a revolver but if you re a cop that is up against some gang member with a couple of automatics in his coat i mean semi auto handguns you re going to be at a disadvantage even with training i have been at a shooting range where gang gang members were practicing shooting they were actually practicing taking out their guns as quick as possible and shooting at the target and they weren t doing too badly either the university cops here who are are state cops are armed better than the chicago police it seems most state cops are i don t know where you are originally from david but you live in tennesse and i live in chicago and see this crap everyday on the news and in the papers i think the situation is just a tad different here than there however don t forget that the police in chicago can carry just about anything they want except for the glock which is not approved for carry guess they figure all cops are like the police chief of winnetka who happened to let off a stray round of mm this is the same anti gun police chief that wanted full auto uzis for his patrol cars perhaps in the judgement of the majority of chicago s finest a close to reliable weapon like a revolver is preferable to a reliable automatic i note that in germany where certainly the mm semi auto handgun is king some of the more elite police types want revolvers i don t think the issue is cost because chicago police certainly make on the order of at least k year your presumption of disadvantage i think is not borne out by the experiences of new york city s cops there the cops usually come out on top with their standard spl revolvers i ve seen s ws rugers and beretta mms in addition to the revolvers carried by chicago cops in the past i ve seen m s others have seen browning hi powers jason
talk.politics.guns	re ban all firearms in article apr gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes firearms tend to fall into this low dollar pound area why either the numerator or the denominator could fluctuate the dollar value of a gun would of course go up if supply were restricted the weight of a gun might go down significantly as technology improved i don t think you have a basis to assert this it would not be economic to smuggle them in all production would have to be local there are not all that many people who have both the skill and motivation to assemble worthwhile firearms from scratch the skill is easily taught to anyone with a modicum of mechanical aptitude and the only motivator needed is money if guns were banned then this motivator would kick in big time now of course it is not a moneymaking proposition for every machine shop to make guns on the side when it ain t rebuilding engines ban guns and watch what happens you ll have to schedule a year in advance to get your brakes resurfaced
talk.politics.guns	re ban all firearms firearms tend to fall into this low dollar pound area it would not be economic to smuggle them in all production would have to be local there are not all that many people who have both the skill and motivation to assemble worthwhile firearms from scratch high ranking crime figures could obtain imported uzis and such but the average person and average thug would be lucky to get a zip gun and would pay through the nose for it this is not borne out of reality the old soviet union had a very serious domestic handgun and submachinegun trade guns that were of commercial grade because they were produced in honest to goodness machineshops why would all production have to be local don t we have a road system that is the envy of the world i seem to recall incidents in the past where chinese entreprenaurs attempted to smuggle ak s semi autos into this country to get around import number limitations may have been gunweek where i read that years ago any person with high school drafting skills and vocational school machineshop training could produce a submachinegun you talk about the average person not being able get even a zip gun well now think of all that private cnc controlled machinery that is not being used for shifts a day do you think that if guns were being sold on the black market for say an enterprising mechanical engineer could be using that machinery to produce workable submachineguns for sale after all gunweek had an article and pictures on how batf was looking for the manufacturer of quite efficient silencers that were of commercial quality and finish look at it this way of the u s households have a handgun say at least half of those keep one for self defense you are talking a potential market of of tens of millions of people who would seek firearms for the purpose of self preservation only a fool would believe that market would not be filled regardless of government prohibitions
talk.politics.guns	re armed citizen april iftccu talk politics guns kendall lds loral com colin kendall am apr in article apr dazixco ingr com crphilli hound dazixca ingr com writes the armed citizen mere presence of a firearm without a shot being fired prevents crime in many instances as shown by news reports sent to the armed citizen perhaps so but note that of the accounts cited there was only one in which no shot was fired of the other twelve five described cases in which the assailant was wounded by a shot and six described cases in which the assailant was killed by a shot follow more than one months posting as more than one reader has noted there is some reporting bias here i have seen months where these numbers were reversed i don t keep a constant tally but it seems this particular issue had more shots fired than any other i can remember rick
talk.politics.guns	re ban all firearms woops i m not sure if i screwed up but this is either forgery or some sort of mistake aborted post that didn t abort on my part bogus article below if seen in another post should be ignored iftccu talk politics guns bressler iftccu ca boeing com rick bressler pm apr iftccu talk politics guns papresco undergrad math uwaterloo ca paul prescod am apr in article hydra gatech edu gt a prism gatech edu cochrane james shapleigh writes i certainly hope this is somebody s idea of a joke as poor as it it my earlier posting mentioning an illegal firearms manufacturing site being searched for by the feds in the florida area was evidently ignored let s look at this critically how many guns did this illegal manufacturing site make compared to and so on sorry rick
talk.politics.guns	re proper gun control what is proper gun control was re my gun is like my american express card iftccu talk politics guns mikey ccwf cc utexas edu strider pm apr i think most of us would rather be held up with a knife than with a gun but how the hell are you going to manage that you still haven t offered i ve been watching this knife verses gun bit for a while now even contributed a few comments but this stuff i d rather face a knife than a gun has got to come from ignorance i used to think pretty much the same thing then i got educated people do not as a rule understand how deadly knives can be or how quickly you can be killed with one most people don t understand that it takes less than an inch of penetration in some areas to cause quick within a minute or so death the death rates from handguns and knives are within a few percentage points of each other many people not realizing how deadly knives are try their luck and thus more get injured by knives a gun is deadly only in a single direction and it s only advantage is that it is a remote control weapon a contact weapon such as a knife controls a spherical area to feet in diameter most people have never seen knife wounds aside from slicing a finger by accident from feet or so a knife is very nearly an even match for a holstered gun in experienced hands even if the knife wielder has only moderate skill from inside feet or so a knife is a match for a drawn gun a knife is utterly silent it never jams and never runs out of ammunition it is limited only by the speed dexterity skill and ability of it s wielder criminals in general are young fast and strong it s interesting to note that the patterned slashing attacks used by many martial artists remarkably resemble the wild uncontrolled slashing attacks of novices i ve talked to several well trained martial artists they have unanimously agreed that if they ever go up against a knife they simply plan on being cut hopefully not as bad as the attacker practicing with firearms requires facilities and equipment practicing with knives requires only a small area and something to simulate a knife say a popsicle stick or tooth brush criminals practice their knife attacks in prison if you have not trained against knives with a firearm and do not realize these facts the first inkling you will have that something is wrong is the knife ripping through your throat or in the case of an experienced attacker parts of your body falling off onto the ground a year old man with arthritis can close that yard distance and gut you in about one and a half seconds dennis tueller with a broken leg in a walking cast managed it in two i ve seen people close that distance and strike in second i m old over weight and slow i can do it in seconds i ve seen morgue footage of people killed with edged weapons that you would not believe how about a single stab wound to the chest with a table fork in this case the attacker used the handle not the pointed end add to this the fact that hand gun stopping power is largely a myth except in the case of a central nervous system shot or a round that destroys the skeletal structure it takes anywhere from to twelve seconds for a bullet wound to take effect this is true of even heart shots there is the case of the police woman in l a the first recorded survivor of a shot to the heart that lady not only killed her attacker but chased him down to do it all four of her shots fired after she had been shot struck the perp atta girl the bullet entered her on a downward angle went through the apex of her heart down through the diaphragm clipped her liver and destroyed her spleen it then exited her back leaving a tennis ball sized hole she died about six times on the operating table but was out of the hospital in days and was back on full duty in eight months she was off duty at the time and not wearing her vest she was on her way home so happened to have her gun no she doesn t think civilians should have the same rights sigh the moral of the story is that even if you do manage to shoot a knife attacker you d better be planning on doing some dodging a good alternative is to shoot for and break the pelvis people can often walk a little on broken legs but a broken pelvis will nearly always anchor them many firearms schools recommend pelvis shots against contact weapons the target is as large as the traditional center of mass and is more reliable to stop somebody with a contact weapon assuming a caliber powerful enough to do the job hot s on up will usually do this remember folks the idea isn t to take em with you but for you to live and them to fail whatever the consequences for them this the reason killing them isn t our goal or in many cases even good enough to keep us alive i don t want to face a violent attack of any sort knowing what i now know i can t rightly say i d rather face a knife than an gun it would have to depend on the attacker and if i could pick and choose i wouldn t be there this is really the bottom line criminals do not fear the law criminals do not fear the weapon they fear the citizen behind the weapon that has shown the resolution and determination to do whatever it takes rick
talk.politics.guns	re proper gun control what is proper gun control was re my gun is like my american express card iftccu talk politics guns hays ssd intel com kirk hays pm apr some of the pro gun posters in this group own no guns the dread terminator aka the rifleman owned no firearms for several years while posting in this group as an example there are others good point kirk he s still around too he s responded by email to a couple of my posts and gosh darn he s gotten down right civil this happed about the time he got his first firearm wonder if there is a relationship here turns out that most people at least the ones who are not criminals to start with act responsibility once given the chance rick
talk.politics.guns	re the pill for deer no hunting in article apr gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes in article apr synapse bms com hambidge bms com writes the second amendment is about sovereignty not sporting goods perfectly correct but it won t make any difference i agree sad but true self defense is a valid reason for rkba the vast majority get through life without ever having to own use or display a firearm besides there are other means of self protection which can be just as effective as firearms please name one freedoms and rights are not dependent on public opinion necessity or scientific scrutiny new to this planet everything is dependent on either public or political opinion usually political to imagine that inalienable rights are somehow wired into the vast cold cosmos is purest egotism and a dangerous delusion upon which our bill of rights is based some delusion no arguments against rkba can withstand scientific scrutiny they don t have to like so many other things the issue is one of perception rather than boring statistics every time some young innocent is gunned down in a drive by every time some kid is murdered for a jacket every time a store clerk is executed for three dollars in change every time some moron kills his wife because she took the last beer from the fridge every time someone hears a bang in the night the rkba dies the stats are not all that clearly behind firearms the protection factor does not strongly outweigh the mindless mayhem factor given society as we now experience it it seems safer to get rid of as many guns as possible that may be an error but enough active voters believe in that course if this were not true in practice then certain unethical politicians would not be passing gun control laws politicians are generally whores to public opinion this does not mean the the public is either well informed or correct as for the stats anyone can support anything with the right stats the right stats from what i ve seen are sometimes even used to support conflicting sides of the same issue how do you intend to silence rkba supporters talk all you want talk about the good old days when you used to own firearms after a while such talk will take on the character of war stories and no one will be very interested anymore used to own firearms while armed insurrection as the ff s of the const may have envisioned seems to me a somewhat fanatical approach to avoiding this political protest is still an option at this point i agree that it s argueably not enough and or too late if all else fails there s always pvc pipe and cosmoline chris miller chris morningstar com my opinions are my own obviously and by definition do not reflect the opinions of anyone else
talk.politics.guns	re some more about gun control in article apr beaver cs washington edu graham cs washington edu stephen graham writes in article qhpcn b transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes consider a similar structure a well educated electorate being necessary for the security of a free state the right of the people to keep and read books shall not be infringed now does this mean only the electorate can keep and read books does it mean only registered voters can keep and read books does it mean only those who have voted can keep and read books does it imply any restrictions at all on the right to keep and read books but it would imply that the state had the right to regulate and enforce education that s nice but it doesn t answer the question there is a difference between the feds can mandate literacy and the feds can t interfere with literacy book possession as far as john q public with a gun the supreme court has already ruled in cases such as us v miller u s and us v verdugo urquidez s ct that that is exactly what the amendment protects this interpretation can be found as far back as the dred scott case in it s worth noting that us vs miller sustained miller s conviction of possession of an illegal firearm noting that a sawed off shotgun was not a proper militia weapon therefore us vs miller supports limited government regulation of firearms actually the miller court did nothing of the kind it remanded the case back to the trial court because the miller court didn t know if the weapon in question was a militia weapon doesn t it bother anyone that a major constitutional issue was taken up in a case where there was no defense miller had been released by the appeals court and disappeared only the govt was represented we don t know what would have happened with the reasonable all guns are militia weapons argument andy
talk.politics.guns	re boston gun buy back ron miller wrote when you ask the question of the authorities or sponsors of buyback programs whether they will check for stolen weapons and they answer no it s total amnesty good point about registration schemes being used only for harassment deleted i would also like to point out that this is receiving stolen property and is no different than a pawn shop owner doing the same thing myron petro nra uspsa dvc y all the opinions included in this post are my sole responsibility and are protected by the first amendment and guarnteed by the second amendment
talk.politics.guns	re clinton wants national id card aka ussr style internal passport the idea of the card is bull in and of its self but i m curious to know do they plan on making it a requirement to always have it on you or is it only going to be required to be presented when trying to ge medical aid btw anybody planning on shaving hillary s head to look for later dave days goverment logic or just the clintons david h slack boise surface mount center email slack hpdmd boi hp com telnet phone hewlett packard chinden blvd boise idaho m s
talk.politics.guns	re fyi batf reply on waco the san francisco examiner reports that clinton has issued instructions to federal law enforcement that they may not kill or injure anyone to resolve the waco situation so they ve built a fence around the compound and are now seriously considering building up the fence to prison camp levels pulling out most of the manpower and waiting however many months it takes john nagle
talk.politics.guns	re some more about gun control in article apr synapse bms com hambidge bms com writes actually the words a well regulated milita being necessary to the security of a free state is a present participle used as an adjective to modify militia which is followed by the main clause of the sentence the subject being the right the verb shall it asserts that the right to keep and bear arms is essential for maintaining a milita a free state yes i agree the first half of the amendment does modify the noun militia but the difinition of modify that applies to how well regulated modifies militia is to qualify or limit the meaning of for example wet modifes day in the phrase a wet day the amendment is similiar to the statement a wet day being annoying the right of the people to keep and wear boots shall not be infringed so how does a dry day pertain the right to use boots similiar what does the unorganized militia have to due with the right to own guns the sentence in the second amendment doesn t restrict the right or state or imply possession of the right by anyone or anything other than the people all it does is make a positive statement regarding a right of the people the people as in you and me as in the first fourth ninth tenth as well as the second amendment the existence of this right is assumed it is not granted by the amendment there is no stated or implied condition relating the right to bear arms to the necessity of a well regulated militia to the security of in other words the entire sentence says that the right to keep and bear arms is unconditional no not unconditional but shall not be infringed infringed is defined as to break or ignore the terms of or obligations an oath an agreement law or the like to disreguard violate to go beyond the boundaries or limits tresspass encroach this definition implies the following of some form of existing agreement laws and agreements are made in advance boundaries or limits of behavior are set by society as a whole the word unconditional implies no agreements or all previous agreements are off which is the opposite the words used in the first amendment are much stronger i e congress shall make no law are much stronger they clearly imply unconditional if the writers of the amendment wanted unconditional whay didn t they says congress shall make no laws pertaining the the right of the people to keep and bear arms the second amendment implies a sort contract between the people the people and the state the bigger part of the contract is the people have the right to overthrew the government and its laws at any time to guarantee this right the laws cannot stopped the people from forming a well regutaled militia the duties of a well regulated militia to the government are descussed in federalist no and the limits of of the governmental control of the militia are descussed in article i section article ii section and the second amendment of the constitution if only it were a modern document with a john lawrence rutledge smart index and hyper links stretching all research assistant through the world data net it was terribly frustrating to flip back and forth between interactive media group the pages and crude flat illustrations that computer science department never even moved nor were there animated umass lowell arrows or zoom ins it completely lacked a university ave for sound lowell ma most baffling of all was the problem of new words in normal text you d only have to touch an unfamiliar word and the definition jrutledg cs ulowell edu would pop up just below from david brin s earth
talk.politics.guns	re militia incredibly long in article qna m nq transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes in article c l n ll ulowell ulowell edu jrutledg cs ulowell edu john lawrence rutledge writes but do you knew how much organization is required to training a large group of poeple twice a year just to try to get the same people every year provide a basic training to new people so they can be integrated into the force and find a suitable location it requires a continually standing committee of organizers again my response is so what is mr rutledge arguing that since the local and federal governments have abandoned their charter to support such activity and passed laws prohibiting private organizations from doing so that they have eliminated the basis for the rkba on the contrary to anyone who understands the game they have strengthened it no i originally argued that the second amendment was a little bit and an anachronism these prohibiting laws are examples why the are an anachronism after all laws in made by representatives of the people these representatives of the people have already decided that the second amendment does not apply or is too broad in some cases since these representatives feel an unconditional interpretation is not wanted then it is probable that they majority of the people feel the same way if this is so it is an example of the people using their power of government if this is not how the people feel the people should stand up and state their wishes mox nix mr rutledge you are the only one here claiming that the rkba is dependent on the existence of a top flight well regulated militia why this is a false assumption has already been posted a number of times no i simple stated that the people have a right to join a well organized militia and i have also stated that a militia that meets once or twice a year is clearly well organized and this state of readiness that i have claimed the people have a right to is the same state of readiness expected of the militia as stated by hamilton if only it were a modern document with a john lawrence rutledge smart index and hyper links stretching all research assistant through the world data net it was terribly frustrating to flip back and forth between interactive media group the pages and crude flat illustrations that computer science department never even moved nor were there animated umass lowell arrows or zoom ins it completely lacked a university ave for sound lowell ma most baffling of all was the problem of new words in normal text you d only have to touch an unfamiliar word and the definition jrutledg cs ulowell edu would pop up just below from david brin s earth
talk.politics.guns	re fyi batf reply on waco in article c l k u elite intel com dgw elite intel com dennis willson writes on march i sent strongly worded letters critisizing the batf in their handling of the randy weaver and branch davidian cases to several politicians ore senators bob packwood and mark hatfield representative elizabeth furse and treasury secretary lloyd bentsen while i have never been a supporter of bob packwood i must admit that he seems to be the only one who has done anything but round file my letter well i didn t bother writing to boxer feinstein or eshoo the terrible trio who allegly represent me instead i wrote to bentsen my letter was not exactly strongly worded i simply stated that the batf approach was immoral military style assault firing into a house where they knew there were kids aparently bentsen forwarded my letter to the batf and they responded to me directly it follows the text of your reply pretty closely however i intend to send another letter directly to them in return prior to the service of the federal search warrant numerous efforts were made to locate and effect the arrest of david koresh away from the compound these efforts were unsuccessful even if david koresh had been arrested while away from the compound action would have been required against his followers who are just as violent as he during the subsequent search of the premises this section is not in the letter that i received the parts about atf logo and steenking badges or their loss of the element of surprise were not included either sincerely yours daniel m h l tt can t make out signature deputy director the same guy with the bad handwriting apparently signed my letter for richard l garner chief special operations division don
talk.politics.guns	re non lethal alternatives to handguns iftccu talk politics guns steiner jupiter ca boeing com am apr douglas craig holland holland cs colostate edu writes lostsa crap deleted trim your articles what about guns with non lethal bullets like rubber or plastic bullets would those work very well in stopping an attack last i heard non lethal was a bit of a misnomer for these things also you need to consider our legal system since any of these things can be lethal you are going to have a hard time explaining why you applied lethal force when you didn t think it was necessary if you thought lethal force was necessary you wouldn t be using rubber bullets would you ouch if you are justified in shooting them at all you are justified in using the best self defense ammunition you can get your hands on it might actually improve the legal outcome this is why hollow points hold up in court they are safer for you safer for innocent by standers don t as a rule go through the perp and actually safer for the perp if you are using military hard ball you may have to shoot him many times where one or two hollow points might stop him and do the job as a rule the fewer wound channels the better the chance for his surviving the incident rick
talk.politics.guns	re gun lovers was re my gun is like my american express card hell a glock is the last thing that should be switched to the only thing that i know about a glock is the lack of a real safety on it sure there is that little thing in the trigger but that isn t too great of a safety you re getting warmer the little thing in the trigger has to be depressed before the trigger can move what this means is the damned thing won t go off until the trigger is pulled this makes it just about there have been some problems but we re assuming the gun is functioning correctly as safe as a revolver the gun when working correctly is totally drop safe now in police work this is a consideration there is not a single documented case i m aware of where a police officer was killed because he failed to operate the safety on his firearm there are quite a few documented cases where criminals got hold of the cops gun and couldn t figure out how to get the safety off in time to use the gun thus the proprietary nature of the safety to the criminal at least very likely prevented the office from getting shot the purpose of a safety is to make the gun safe from unintentional fire this does not mean it should be so complicated as to slow down intentional use thus the glock safety is perfectly adequate from a safety standpoint but not necessarily the most desirable from the standpoint of open carry where it is easily grabbed by somebody else by this criteria it does make a lot of sense as a concealed carry piece from the standpoint of police use it is no better or worse than a revolver as far as being proprietary to the officer in the method of firing it the ideal solution may someday be biometric sensing of the user so that the firearm can t be used by anybody but it s owner but for now the wide variety of safety systems helps unless the criminal happens to be familiar with that particular type of firearm rick
talk.politics.guns	re gun lovers was re my gun is like my american express card iftccu talk politics guns vincent cad gatech edu vincent fox am apr this isn t rec guns so maybe this is getting a bet technical but i can t resist a revolver also has the advantage that if it misfires you just pull the trigger again sometimes depends on why it misfired a double action revolver almost all of them can be hand cocked first but will fire merely by pulling the trigger i can t imagine doing much combat type shooting single action a misfire in a revolver merely means you must pull the trigger again to rotate to the next round assuming the cylinder will rotate a revolver can be carried with the th chamber empty and under the hammer for maximum safety but still can be drawn and fired with an easy motion even one handed never hurts to err on the side of safety but if you ve got one of those new fangled hammer blocks or transfer bar safeties it s unnecessarily redundant i d rather have the extra round speedloaders for a revolver allow reloads almost as fast as magazines on semi autos can be faster depending on users quite true speed loaders are a little less convenient to pack around than magazines though a misfire in a semi auto will require you to clear a jammed shell first time spent which can be fatal and a vital second or so is often lost as you realize hey it s jammed before starting to do anything about clearing it true but this is a training function most semi autos must have the slide worked to chamber the first round and cock the hammer some police carry their semi autos with the chamber loaded and hammer cocked but a safety engaged i do not consider this safe however you must trade off safety to get the same speed of employment as a revolver cocked and locked for single actions or hammer down on double actions are the only carry modes that make sense the series colt s for example are quite safe to carry this way there are some double action semi autos out there but the complexity of operation of many of them requires more training agreed now that i ve shot off my mouth a bit let me back some of this up it is true that a simple misfire on a revolver doesn t cost you much on the other hand i ve had all sorts of interesting things happen over the years for example i ve had factory ammunition that has had high primers a high primer will tie your revolver up somewhere from seconds to minutes while you try to pound the action open to clear the problem an auto jack the slide and continue i ve had bullets come out of the case keeping the cylinder from turning see clearing paragraph above about the worst that can happen with a semi auto is a double feed this can be cleared in seconds most revolvers are more fragile then semi auto s there are all sorts of close tolerance parts and fitting involved dropping the gun or a blow to the gun or all sorts of things can take it out of action many of the problems that can be cured on the spot with a quality semi auto take a gun smith for a revolver in short a revolver may be less likely to malfunction but as a rule when it does you re out of the fight the majority of malfunctions that occur with semi autos does not fall into that category vincint makes many good points in this post but leaves off the opposing view of most of them a real good starting place is ayoob s the semi auto pistol for police and self defense in general i d agree the revolver is an excellent first gun and self defense weapon for somebody that does not have the time and inclination that is necessary for the training and practice needed to use a semi auto effectively as a self defense arm most cops are notoriously indifferent to firearms if the department isn t going to train them they aren t going to take the time on their own there is no doubt that training is an issue the amount of training required for effective use of a semi auto is probably several times that of a revolver many cops don t bother for myself i d hate to be limited to one or the other i d rather pick what fits better with my personal inclination what i m wearing that day and so on like the moderator on rec guns says buy em all that said i have to admit that often my advice to people thinking of buying their first defense arm is right after taking a class get a ruger or smith revolver sorry colt fans colt revolvers are ok too if this post had gone the other way i d be arguing for revolvers rick
talk.politics.guns	re the pill for deer no hunting iftccu talk politics guns jrm gnv ifas ufl edu am apr the vast majority get through life without ever having to own use or display a firearm i suppose that depends on how you define vast majority you are correct about majority somewhere between out of three and one out of will at some period in their lives experience a violent assault the risk is generally higher than emergency medical problems like heart attack and stroke vast is probably too loose a term with approximately americans using firearms each year over a year period we get roughly since some may have to do this more than once million americans with experience in using firearms for self defense yields percent of the population yes i know that is a real rough estimate we re closer to million now but many of these are minors and should be included etc thus the percentage if anything is low at any rate most minority groups in this range are not usually referred to as tiny minorities so i don t see how the other part of the group can be referred to as the vast majority a little more work might support a simple majority of americans never use own or display a firearm certainly when you are talking about ownership you are wrong nearly half of your fellow citizens own one or more firearms besides there are other means of self protection which can be just as effective as firearms please provide a list of other means that are as effective then you might convince your local police departments to switch good luck rick
talk.politics.guns	re guns in backcountry no thanks in article b aad c e uinpla npl uiuc edu reimer uinpla npl uiuc edu paul e reimer writes in article qkftjinnoij cronkite cisco com pitargue cisco com marciano pitargue writes stuff deleted about causes of people in er and your factoid about shooting victims in the er count how many come in due to automobile accidents and automobile crimes maybe we should outlaw cars marciano pitargue cisco com there are a lot of automobile accidents but atleast there is some regulation to try to combat this such as drunk drivers get back on the road in no time to kill again seems the driver s license process does not work for this when i got my drivers license i had to take a drivers safety class because you wanted one while you were underage i have to be licensed to drive only on public roads my car must be registered only if it is to be driven on public roads other than between segments of my property i must at least where i live have liability insurance on both myself driving and my car if someone else had an accident with it only on public roads hmm wouldn t manditory saftey classes registration of both the owner and gun and manditory liability insurance be nice for gun owners perhaps if it gave them permission to shoot in public roads and parks paul reimer reimer uinpluxa npl uiuc edu jim jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my in article apr vax oxford ac uk jaj vax oxford ac uk writes what all you turkey pro pistol and automatic weapons fanatics don t seem to realize is that the rest of us laugh at you you don t make me angry you just make me chuckle steve it s nice that you find me laughable but i don t quite understand is it because you think my firearms clash with what i m wearing or that my nra sticker isn t on straight please state your judgement i find it sad that people won t accept the responsibility to defend themselves and i laugh with the same contempt you have for me at the sheep who expect the government to protect them what he didn t realize was that we took a photo of the back of his truck and showed it to our friends when we got back to vancouver canada where i m from originally people were guffawing at the basic stupidity of such a sticker and the even greater stupidity of the person who put it there in the first place you and your friends sound like a bunch of smug intellectuals now that i live in britain i can see how the rest of the civilized world perceives you gun nut morons oh i guess you are i m still waiting for you all knowing academic likes to solve the worlds problems let us know when you have the answers or punch lines as this case may be the only problem is that canada i hear is suffering from your national eccentricity in that easy to purchase weapons are being smuggled cross the border so it s not a yankee thing are canadians actually as uncivilized as we americans hell here in britain the cops don t even carry guns well if it s anything like here it wouldn t matter if they did they wouldn t be able to use them hell as i recall in people s court even rusty carried a gun never know some plaintiff might go nuts you shouldn t waste your time watching tv steve it will corrupt your mind anyway all you gun nut rush limbaugh fans please keep up your diatribes against brady and other evil liberal media plots you re so damn funny you provide endless amounts of entertainment in your arguments and examples of why someone should be allowed to carry a piece keep us all chuckling ditto to you self righteous one lay your derogatory tirade on thick steve y all can keep laughing and i ll keep feeling safe and secure steve johanes
talk.politics.guns	reminder denver rally tomorrow monster rally for the right to own and carry weapons tomorrow sunday april from to p m the denver libertarian party will sponsor a rally at the state capitol in support of the individual right to own and carry weapons speakers will include former colorado deputy attorney general david kopel radio host ken hamblin dlp chair david segal pistol instructor lenda jackson and novelist l neil smith your presence and participation are highly welcome for more information call david segal at cathy smith my opinions are of course my own
talk.politics.guns	re militia incredibly long in article c n vy ej ulowell ulowell edu jrutledg cs ulowell edu john lawrence rutledge writes in article qna m nq transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes again my response is so what is mr rutledge arguing that since the local and federal governments have abandoned their charter to support such activity and passed laws prohibiting private organizations from doing so that they have eliminated the basis for the rkba on the contrary to anyone who understands the game they have strengthened it no i originally argued that the second amendment was a little bit and an anachronism these prohibiting laws are examples why the are an anachronism after all laws in made by representatives of the people these representatives of the people have already decided that the second amendment does not apply or is too broad in some cases since these representatives feel an unconditional interpretation is not wanted then it is probable that they majority of the people feel the same way if this is so it is an example of the people using their power of government if this is not how the people feel the people should stand up and state their wishes i ll point out that the whole point of the difficult amendment process was to require a super majority to change the supreme law making it impossible for a majority of the people to simply change the law on a whim simply changing the meaning based on the representatives of the people effectively destroys the amendment process the state s you know are also entitled to a say under that process mox nix mr rutledge you are the only one here claiming that the rkba is dependent on the existence of a top flight well regulated militia why this is a false assumption has already been posted a number of times no i simple stated that the people have a right to join a well organized militia i ll note that that right could be considered protected under the first amendment s protection of peaceful assembly unless you would consider a militia inherently non peaceful then they ve stated the same thing twice david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my in article apr vax oxford ac uk jaj vax oxford ac uk writes what all you turkey pro pistol and automatic weapons fanatics don t seem to realize is that the rest of us laugh at you you don t make me angry you just make me chuckle that s nice we strive for entertainment value i remeber being in bellingham washington and seeing a pick up truck in front of the car that my friend and i were in it had a bumper sticker proclaiming gun control is a firm grip on a now i m sure that that wanker thought he was pretty cool what he didn t realize was that we took a photo of the back of his truck and showed it to our friends when we got back to vancouver canada where i m from originally people were guffawing at the basic stupidity of such a sticker and the even greater stupidity of the person who put it there in the first place in the first place you have to realize the feeling goes both ways canadians laugh at the u s and americans simply shrug and woner why the hell we let them be a state in the first place i knew somebody else who went to one of your gun mart superstore places just so he could experience the sight of people putting guns and ammo into shopping carts i didn t believe it myself until i drove by one in vegas last year interesting strategy posting here with complaints about people elsewhere now that i live in britain i can see how the rest of the civilized world perceives you gun nut morons courtesy is apparently a dead commodity in the rest of the civilized world gun nut morons indeed the bbc recently referred to the american penchant for pistols automatic weapons etc very appropriately it was called a national eccentricity we ve got guns they ve got a monarch and an economy on the verg of collapse finger pointing across the atlanticis a waste or time the only problem is that canada i hear is suffering from your national eccentricity in that easy to purchase weapons are being smuggled cross the border canada has been blaming the u s for their problems for years the simple fact of the matter is this ten years ago they crowed about how great their system was because they d gotten rid of the guns and the u s would be so much better if they d just get into the divine light shining from the north we pointed out that it was cultural differences and pointed to their pre control crime rates we also pointed out that the history of the entire world contained smuggling and that whenever something was wanted it was smuggled in if the problem were based on u s guns it would have surfaced years before now more canadian criminals want guns and they are being provided canada has its own version of the drug problem yet drugs are prohibited in the u s hell here in britain the cops don t even carry guns that s another funny thing you see a us border guard and he s got his or on his belt with tons o spare ammo never know maybe some canadian shopper might get out of hand hell as i recall in people s court even rusty carried a gun never know some plaintiff might go nuts saw a news report out of britain that armed crime is on the rise and several police agencies are considering have permanent firearms officers to deal with it according to u s news world report british handgun deaths have risen over over the past twelve years the u s number has dropped maybe they re smuggling them across the u s u k border yeah that s the ticket cya have a nice day steve learn a little common courtesy and politeness david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
talk.politics.guns	re guns in backcountry no thanks in article b aad c e uinpla npl uiuc edu reimer uinpla npl uiuc edu paul e reimer writes in article qkftjinnoij cronkite cisco com pitargue cisco com marciano pitargue writes stuff deleted about causes of people in er and your factoid about shooting victims in the er count how many come in due to automobile accidents and automobile crimes maybe we should outlaw cars marciano pitargue cisco com there are a lot of automobile accidents but atleast there is some regulation to try to combat this when i got my drivers license i had to take a drivers safety class tennessee at least does not require any sort of safety class to get a driver s license all that is required is one twenty question quiz and to drive a car around the block without crashing i have to be licensed to drive in all probability no you don t you are required to be licensed to drive on public roads a license is not necessary on private property my car must be registered most states do not require the registration of cars that are not used on public roads those that do california i know of do so for tax purposes more than anything else i must at least where i live have liability insurance on both myself driving and my car if someone else had an accident with it many states do not currently require this and most again only make this requirement for public roads a car sitting unused is not required to have insurance hmm wouldn t manditory saftey classes registration of both the owner and gun and manditory liability insurance be nice for gun owners the two are not the same as i pointed out above there are significant difference between making rules for use on public property and making rules for ownership the other half of the objection is trust similar things to this have been tried in many local jurisdications across the country and have been abused in far too many cases safety classes which are never sheduled never funded or only one or two is held a year for a limited number of participants registration lists in new york chicago and california have been used for confiscation many gun owners would in theory support these planes although the numbers overwhelmingly show that competence is not the problem that intentional misuse is they ve simply seen it abused and are leery of the next person who comes down the pike with a reasonable suggestion they ve already seen abused david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
talk.politics.guns	re criminals machineguns there s only one way i know of to tell an ar from an m pick it up hold it about a foot from your face and look closely at the saftey lever if it has two positions its an ar if it has three its an m there are numerous internal differences as well but since one would have to field strip the weapon to see them they are not valid in this discussion so in conclusion there is very little external differences to distinguish an ar from an m except at close very close range david bixler auburn university all standard disclaimers apply
talk.politics.guns	re guns in backcountry no thanks in article c lrpq o idacom hp com guy idacom hp com guy m trotter writes hi in canada any gun that enters a national park must be sealed i think it s a small metal tag that s placed over the trigger the net result of this is that you can t use a gun to protect yourself from bears or psychos in the national parks instead one has to be sensitive to the dangers and annoyances of hiking in bear country and take the appropriate precautions i think this policy makes the users of the national parks feel a little closer to nature that they are a part of nature and as such have to deal with nature on it s own terms guy hello i understand this philosophy the bears are a national treasure the area is their sanctuary and people who enter it do so at their own risk it is better that that rare human be killed by a bear than that bears be provoked or shot by unbear savvy visitors the bears aren t having a population explosion humans are so it is better that a human be killed than endanger the bears i don t agree with this philosopy but i understand it the psychos are a bit different they are not a national treasure but i suppose the decision has been made that to allow provision for defense against them would also allow provision for defense against bears again i suppose it has been decided that it is better for the rare human to be killed by a psycho than to take a chance on threatening the bears personally i wouldn t go into an area where i would be managed so as to reduce my safety but come to think of it i guess i live in a managed wilderness myself joan v
talk.politics.guns	re some more about gun control in article apr mtu edu cescript mtu edu charles scripter writes in article c bu m k ulowell ulowell edu jrutledg cs ulowell edu john lawrence rutledge wrote excellent exchange deleted it seems to me the whole reason for the second amendment to give the people protection from the us government by guaranteeing that the people can over through the government if necessary is a little bit of an anachronism is this day and age maybe its time to re think how this should be done and amend the constitution appropriately abraham lincoln first inaugural address march this country with its institutions belongs to the people who inhabit it whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their revolutionary right to dismember it or overthrow it rep elbridge gerry of massachusetts spoken during floor debate over the second amendment i annals of congress at august what sir is the use of a militia it is to prevent the establishment of a standing army the bane of liberty whenever governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people they always attempt to destroy the militia in order to raise an army upon their ruins so now we know which category mr rutledge is in he means to destroy our liberties and rights what i find so hard to understand is how come some people apparantly not connected with government or otherwise privileged will go to great lengths redefinitions re interpretations in a full bore attempt to throw away the protection of their own rights under the constitution almost makes me think of lemmings running into the sea during a lemming year i really wonder that jefferson and madison would say to these folks when all government in little as in great things shall be drawn to washington as the centre of all power it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated thomas jefferson excellent quote pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien
talk.politics.guns	re guns in backcountry no thanks in article qpavfinn jp clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com jim de arras writes in article b aad c e uinpla npl uiuc edu reimer uinpla npl uiuc edu paul e reimer writes in article qkftjinnoij cronkite cisco com pitargue cisco com marciano pitargue writes stuff deleted about causes of people in er due to automobile accidents and automobile crimes maybe we should outlaw cars there are a lot of automobile accidents but atleast there is some regulation to try to combat this such as drunk drivers get back on the road in no time to kill again seems the driver s license process does not work for this i can testify to this my cousin spent a few weeks in the hospital and his friend was killed because of a drunk driver the son of a b is back on the streets officers from the scene are still p ed about that one to take a drivers safety class because you wanted one while you were underage i have to be licensed to drive only on public roads my car must be registered only if it is to be driven on public roads other than between segments of my property i must at least where i live have liability insurance on both myself driving and my car if someone else had an accident with it only on public roads and this obviously doesn t always work else why would they offer uninsured motorist coverage hmm wouldn t manditory saftey classes registration of both the owner and gun and manditory liability insurance be nice for gun owners i object to mandatory registration because i don t trust my government not to use any information i give them for their own purposes i am licensed to carry a concealed pistol in my home state but they never asked whether i actually owned a firearm a safety class before issuing a permit to carry is reasonably provided such classes are regularly available to the public of course most places would consider my time in the reserves and on a competition rifle team to count perhaps if it gave them permission to shoot in public roads and parks hey now that s an idea paul reimer jim now unless you have an agenda against private ownership of firearms why would you want to harass the person trying to legally defend themselves or exercise their rights i know defending oneself family whoever is a right at least as far as my mm and i are concerned also as far as the state of alabama seems to be concerned why don t you push for stricter prosecution of those who use firearms in the commission of a crime i ve already pointed out how we aren t nailing dui s hard enough comparing the us with other countries seldom works but the european attitude towards alchohol and dui seems to work their attitude towards weapons isn t really a valid comparison because they ve historically done their best to keep the populace disarmed and submissive while our country was founded by a bunch of rugged individualists who told the european monarchies for the most part to take a flying leap used more polite language though we even weaseled out of our first international treaty and then convinced the french that it was in their best interests not to complain but first we had to overcome the fact that the brits were doing their best to restrict us to squirrel guns and such so we d be properly submissive while they forced us to pay for their wars of course most american history classes these days tend to gloss over facts that do not fit the image they wish to convey i m glad my amer hist teacher was a libertarian who had us review a good portion of the federalist papers and debate their origins and meanings enough rambling james james s cochrane when in danger or in doubt run in this space gt a prism gatech edu circles scream and shout for rent
talk.politics.guns	cnn for sale w k gorman maybe now s the time for us the nra goa ccrtkba saf et al to band together and buy cnn as our voice wouldn t that be sumpin broadcast the truth for a change and be able to air a favorable pro gun item or two i would like to see this happen i don t think it will i don t think the average gun owner will take any notice of what is happening until they break down his door but i will go on record publicly to the effect that i will contribute a minimum of to the buy out fund if it can be organized and made viable anybody else want to put their money where their mouth is there ar million gun owners out there if and it s a big and not very realistic if we got hold of cnn the anti gun bullshit would stop right there why won t it happen because nobody will get off their ass and make it happen nuts any nra headquarters weenies listening to this man any rtkba organization honcho listening it s time to stop fighting the brady s and the schumer s now there s an interesting meaning to the acronynm bs from the comfort of the office we had better get serious with our time and money and get after it or we might just as well pack it in now olx gun control advocates must have had a sanity by pass ye olde bailey bbs v bis v bis houston texas yob sccsi com home of alt cosuard
talk.politics.guns	re carrying arms in article apr spdc ti com dwhite epcot spdc ti com dan white writes i have a question about the second amendment that has bothered me for awhile the amendment guarentees our right to keep and bear arms currently the gun prohibitionists are trying to restrict or eliminate our right to keep arms with the brady bill and the assault weapon ban however haven t we already lost our right to bear arms it seems that in most states like texas a citizen may own a gun and carry while at his home or business but a citizen is severely restricted from bearing outside these areas here in texas you cannot carry in your car except when traveling which is usually defined as traveling across a county line how did this come about are there any court rulings on the legality of restricting the carrying of a weapon outside the home there are but not any that would help texans in many states such laws have been found to violate the state constitution but the federal second amendment does not apply directly to the states it was written to limit the federal government only the fourteenth amendment was written to extend the restrictions of the bill of rights to the state level however the exact wording of the fourteenth amendment is very vague the supreme court has been dancing around the issue without facing it directly for over years in practice the bill of right indirectly applies through the fourteenth applies to the state governments only if the supreme court has ruled that particular provision the court has made no such rulings on the second amendment frank crary cu boulder
talk.politics.guns	re nd amendment dead good in article apr gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes the bulk of firarems are used against unworthy and unnesessary opponents those who posessa a cool jakcet you want those who would argue with you about a parking space those who would take your woman in short trivial and worthless causes that s open for debate certainly an excessive number of people are murdered every year but people also do save innocent lives with firearms the media just don t tell us when it happens too much of this has ruined you cause there is no recovery in the near future federal martials will come for your arms i think there are more of us than there are federal marshalls no one will help you you are more dangerous to their thinking than the criminal this is your own fault crap it s simplistic thinking on the part of feather headed dolts the nd amendment is dead accept this find another way nuts don
talk.politics.guns	re nd amendment dead good in article qrn ainn rq clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com jim de arras writes the nd amendment is dead accept this find another way it ain t dead yet and even if it were repealed remember it just protects our rkba it does not grant any rights there would then have to be additional laws passed to outlaw gun possession even if they outlawed private posession of firearms there would be no moral force behind that law i imagine compliance would be low don
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my in article apr vax oxford ac uk jaj vax oxford ac uk writes what all you turkey pro pistol and automatic weapons fanatics don t seem to realize is that the rest of us laugh at you so what we think you re pretty hilarious too i love how you brit s kiss royal arse that you re willing to throw out freedom of speech for the sake of protecting the reputation of the royal sluts that the british government advertised in american newspapers send a gun to defend a british home british civilians faced with threat of invasion desperately need arms for the defense of their homes during wwii american rifleman november that the obscene publications act and the misuse of drugs act have been used as justification for the police to seize masterpieces such as william s burrough s junky hunter thompson s fear and loathing in las vegas and tom wolfe s the electric kool aid acid test british courts have never recognized the right to assemble or to demonstrate that evidence obtained form coerced confessions is allowed in a trial that only serious felonies warrant a trial by jury that suspected terrorists must prove their innocence instead of the government having to prove their guilt that the secretary of state may issue an exclusionary order which bars someone from ever entering a particular part of the united kingdom such as northern ireland or wales that the bbc banned paul mccartney s give ireland back to the irish as well as john lennon s give peace a chance during the gulf war yes england is very very funny and very pathetic i knew somebody else who went to one of your gun mart superstore places just so he could experience the sight of people putting guns and ammo into shopping carts i didn t believe it myself until i drove by one in vegas last year so what laughter is a way of dealing with things we find uncomfortable i thought the las vegas show girl ads on las vegas street corners were pretty funny yes indeed there are many strange and wonderous things in this country i wouldn t have it any other way now that i live in britain i can see how the rest of the civilized world perceives you gun nut morons the bbc recently referred to the american penchant for pistols automatic weapons etc very appropriately it was called a national eccentricity i don t disagree with that i don t think it s bad either the only problem is that canada i hear is suffering from your national eccentricity in that easy to purchase weapons are being smuggled cross the border so what if they didn t come from here they would come from elsewhere disguised as cocaine anyway all you gun nut rush limbaugh fans please keep up your diatribes against brady and other evil liberal media plots you re so damn funny you provide endless amounts of entertainment in your arguments and examples of why someone should be allowed to carry a piece keep us all chuckling you can laugh all you want for us it s a matter of life or death i don t find that funny in the least as for england as our allies become more open britain grow yet more secretive and censorious perhaps the real british vice is passivity a willingness to tolerate constraints which others would find unbearble in britain an unfree country by terrence dequesne and edward goodman pp larry cipriani l v cipriani att com
talk.politics.guns	re guns gone good riddance in article apr gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes of those who vote your cause is considered an abomination no matter how hard you try public opinion is set against the rkba nope here in northern california a newspaper recently did a survey asking if people favored stricter gun controls a full said no here in one of the most liberal it wasn t always a swear word areas of the country nearly half the people don t want additional controls let alone revocation of rkba this is the end by the finish of the clinton administration your rkba will be null and void tough titty misguided dolt though he may be though i still maintain less dangerous than bush clinton does not publicly support revoking the second amendment surrender your arms soon enough officers will be around to collect them resistance is useless they will overwhelm you one at a time your neighbors will not help you they will consider you more if an immediate threat than the abstract criminal well i ll help my neighbors too fucking bad you have gone the way of the kkk violent solutions are passe avoid situations which encourage criminals then you will be as safe as possible such as it is violent solutions are passe i take it you propose disarming the police then please don t mention rkba in the same breath as the kkk rkba is about being able to defend yourself and others not about killing the innocent actually your mention of the kkk is rather funny considering that the first gun control law in the us were created specifically to disarm black people don
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card in article cmm thomasp surt ifi uio no thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no writes drivers licence forgot that usa is the land of cars getting one in scandinavia and northern europe is not easy average time is about hours of training and the cost is rather is the license required for driving a car exclusively on private property such as a farm here in the united states the license is required only for the use of public roads abuse by the goverment this seems to be one of the main problems any harder gun control would just be abused by the goverment either some of you are a little paranoid no offence or you should get a new goverment you do have elections we also have a nation of million people many issues and usually only two candidates for a given office a president might be willing to abuse mild gun control laws and create a de facto ban something a majority of the people would object to and still be elected the voters might look at issues like the civil rights of minorities health care etc and vote for the lesser of two evils i don t think this is a matter of paranoia since local governments in for example new york and chicago have abused existing mild gun control laws to create a virtual ban guns n criminals most weapons used by criminals today are stolen known criminals can not buy weapons that s one of the points of gun control in which case the united states already has adaquate gun control laws according to federal statistic only of gun wielding criminals legally purchase their own guns from licensed dealers if that s the point of gun control to prevent criminals from legally purchasing guns then america doesn t need any additional laws to accomplish this mixing weapons and things that can be use as one what i meant was that cars can kill but they are not guns how is this any different from guns there are legal purposes for owning and using a gun they are appropriate tools for hunting target shooting and self defence like cars murder isn t their only or even a common use if of all murders was done with axes would you impose some regulations on them or just say that they are ment to be used at trees and that the axe is not a problem it s the axer i certainly couldn t imagine the american public accepting regulation of axes while the politics of other nations may be different in america there is strong opposition to any intrusive law that primarily would effect the average law abiding citizen who had not done anything wrong think about the situation in los angeles where people are buying guns to protect themselves is this a good situation is it the rigth way to deal with the problem a good way to deal with which problem it is an excelent way to deal with the short term problem of rioting and violent attacks of course it doesn t do anything for the long term issues that start riots but at this point what can these individuals do about long term social problems if everybody buys guns to protect themselves from criminals and their neighbor who have guns what do you think will happen i mean if everybody had a gun in usa there are according to surveys guns in of american homes in many parts of the country this is closer to those places where almost everyone owns a gun are on average safer than those where guns are less common last word responsible gun owners are not a problem but they will be affected if you want to protect your citicens this is i think a fundamental difference between american government and that of other nations here it is not acceptable to punish or restrict the average law abiding citizen in the name of some vague common good frank crary cu boulder
talk.politics.guns	re what to do if you shoot somebody in article u uicvm uic edu jason kratz u uicvm uic edu writes i have heard many opinions on this subject and would like to hear more from the people on the net say you re in a situation where you have to pull a gun on somebody you give them a chance to get away but they decided to continue in their action anyway and you end up shooting and killing them my question is what do you do should you stay and wait for the cops or should you collect your brass if you re using a semi auto and get out of there provided of course you don t think that you have been seen as a data point from tennessee a friend of mine and a police officer essentially recommends that if you can fade away even if you were perfectly justified you re likely in for a great deal of hassle a side note carrying a gun concealed is a misdemeanor what kind of laws are on the books regarding this type of situation what would be the most likely thing to happen to you if you stayed and waited and it was a first offense what would happen if you took off but someone saw you and you were caught it s one of those by state things pretty much david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
talk.politics.guns	re guns gone good riddance in article apr gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes you are loosing there is no question about it of those who vote your cause is considered an abomination no matter how hard you try public opinion is set against the rkba not so surveys have shown while the public thinks certain types of gun control may be acceptable they do believe they have an individual right to keep and bear arms and that the police should not have discretion over who may and may not own firearms this is the end by the finish of the clinton administration your rkba will be null and void by the end of the clinton administration a lot of things will be screwed up hell we ll probably be just like england tough titty tough titty my how eloquent you are as for your claim i think clinton has a big fight ahead of him if he thinks he s going to pass some comprehensive gun legislation he will sign the brady bill if it gets to his desk we will do whatever we can to either keep that from happening or modify it such that it is acceptable to us you had better discover ways to make do without firearms sorry that s not possible and that s why we won t give them up either legally or illegally american s will keep their firearms the number of unregistered weapons in new york city is in the millions there aren t even close to that number of violent criminals there the number of cases of firearms abuses has ruined your cause if the gov t was serious about stopping violent crime they would keep violent criminals in jail for a long long time where they belong instead of letting them out on early release there is nothing you can do about it hey we can go into politics too if we feel like it those who live by the sword shall die by it i don t believe this one bit the press is against you the public the voting public is against you the flow of history is against you this is it snore like i take advice on the rkba from a brit no way surrender your arms soon enough officers will be around to collect them resistance is useless you watch too much star trek actually this is an understandable attitude from a brit you are a subject of the state they will overwhelm you one at a time not necessarily there are ways of resisting oppression without getting caught by the gov t your neighbors will not help you they will consider you more if an immediate threat than the abstract criminal the abstract criminal like the ones who killed a relative of mine while she was working in a carry out too fucking bad you have gone the way of the kkk violent solutions are passe while undesirable they are sometimes unavoidable if you don t want to resist a criminal attack by all means do nothing i will a take my chances resisting violent attack and b stand a better chance of being unharmed than someone who does nothing avoid situations which encourage criminals then you will be as safe as possible such as it is what a joke criminals want a disarmed population how can you keep criminals from preying on us after our best means of self defense is taken away larry cipriani l v cipriani att com
talk.politics.guns	re nd amendment dead good in article apr gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes yea there are millions of cases where yoy say that firearms deter criminals alas this is not provable not provable it s about as provable as the number of votes vast for bill clinton in the last election if you accept the information available you can prove one way or the other if you refuse to accept it nothing is provable i think that that there are actually few cases where this is so fine support your assertation but you haven t supported any assertations just yet the national crime survey that secret arm of the nra estimates between and with gun self defenses from assaults and is considered to considerably under report when broken down by weapon there is no form of self defense including dowing nothing which is more effective at avoiding injury or death the bulk of firarems are used against unworthy and unnesessary opponents those who posessa a cool jakcet you want those who would argue with you about a parking space those who would take your woman in short trivial and worthless causes ok support this assertation hell support one too much of this has ruined you cause there is no recovery that s nice in the near future federal martials will come for your arms that s nice too the nd amendment is dead accept this find another way why on earth should we if you re correct we ve nothing to lose by continuing to argue against it and everything to gain david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card in article cmm thomasp surt ifi uio no thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no writes abuse by the goverment this seems to be one of the main problems any harder gun control would just be abused by the goverment either some of you are a little paranoid no offence mr parsli i have to take exception at this there are verifiable previous examples of levels of u s governments abusing gun control restrictions i don t think it is paranoid to worry that what has been abused in the recent past might be abused in thye future after so many times of getting burned any sane person will stop putting his hand on the stove or you should get a new goverment you do have elections i d love to but as long as the politicians grab power to sell pork back to their constituents there s not a lot i can do it s silly to suggest that if there s anything we can t trust the government to do and therefore the government should be allowed to do it then we should change governments down that road lies total government power i ve never been a fan of totalitarianism guns n criminals most weapons used by criminals today are stolen this is very likely known criminals can not buy weapons that s one of the points of gun control and because gun control are strict in whole scandinavia and most of europe we dont have any problem with smuggled guns the north american continent is not europe no matter how many people would like it to be drugs are very illegal and they re here for years canada has crowed about its gun control if it is necessary to control guns over the whole continent then canada should have always had comparable rates to the u s yet they still don t unless you can tell me why the canadian border is so much more magical than the mexican border which is shorter and far more heavily patrolled then i really can t accept that argument mixing weapons and things that can be use as one what i meant was that cars can kill but they are not guns no there are approximately deaths due to guns in the u s two thirds of which are suicides unfortunately i don t have suicide rates for norway however this makes the per gun death rate about half the per car death rate the issue i hope i think we all agree that the criminals are the main problem guns are not a problem but the way they are used is and what are they for i think this discusion is interesting when you think of ex jugoslavia they should all have weapons it s their rigth to have them and if they use them to kill other innocent people the problem is humans not guns the problem s been humans since before we had stone axes the fct of the matter is simply this if nobody ever assaulted anybody whether there is a weapon of any sort around would be totally irrelevent yet weapons are built i d suggest then that the murderous impulse in humanity pre dates weapons anyway the bosnians et al have been making an excellent attempt to kill each other for half a thousand years taking away their guns even if we could would neither halt the killing nor reduce the brutality if of all murders was done with axes would you impose some regulations on them or just say that they are ment to be used at trees and that the axe is not a problem it s the axer an example don t flame me just because not exactly are killed by guns in the u s approximately of murders are commited with firearms with handguns with non handguns the reason i say that guns per se are not the problem is that our non gun rate exceeds most of europe s countries entire violent crime rate i don t really think we ve got more knives or fists in any case i think examples of gun control applied to the u s have been abkect failures just like drug prohibition and other forms of prohibition until you deal with why people are doing what they are doing you won t solve your problem and if the problem is violent crime you shouldn t concentrate on the tools instead the vast majority of guns is never ever misused on the order of over the entire lifetime of the gun this says to me that you can t make the argument that the gun itself causes the misuse think about the situation in los angeles where people are buying guns to protect themselves is this a good situation the situation is not good in that people fear for their lives but recall the scenes of the store owners during the last riots protecting their shops with guns would it have been better they too lost their livelihoods is it the rigth way to deal with the problem the problem of poverty and rage in los angeles no it isn t however if that problem becomes a violent action then yes it can be appropriate whether or not some person has been hurt by their condition won t make me less dead if they burn down my house with me in it you have to examine which problem you re referring to if you re discussing someone violently assaulting you then it is a perfectly legitimate response to make them stop hopefully simply letting them know you re prepared to shoot them would be enough as it was with the above mentioned store owners if everybody buys guns to protect themselves from criminals and their neighbor who have guns what do you think will happen i mean if everybody had a gun in usa of households have some form of firearm usually a long gun that accounts for a level of access for at least million americans firearm ownership is most likely among educated well off whites the group least likely to be involved in violent crime you may take that for what it s worth david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
talk.politics.guns	re what to do if you shoot somebody in article u uicvm uic edu jason kratz u uicvm uic edu writes say you re in a situation where you have to pull a gun on somebody you give them a chance to get away but they decided to continue in their action anyway and you end up shooting and killing them my question is what do you do should you stay and wait for the cops or should you collect your brass if you re using a semi auto and get out of there provided of course you don t think that you have been seen for me it would be an obvious choice armed self defence is clearly and strongly protected by the colorado constitution and the laws of the state in the very clear cut situation of your hypothetical i wouldn t have anything to fear from the police unless i had been publicly carrying the weapon concealed something i m not in the habit of doing even then the worst i d have to deal with was a class misdemeanor even if the situation were not so clear and i might have to worry about arrest for manslaughter or homicide it would still be safer to wait for the police if i were to leave and try to avoid police involvement i d be committing several felonies and ruining my chances of claiming self defence in court if it really was self defence the prosecuter would ask why did you run away and hide from the police in other states however this decision might not be so clear cut if someone in say washington d c were to use a gun in self defence he would automatically be guilty of several felony violations of that city s gun control laws such a person s choices would be between certain conviction for a couple of felonies versus possible conviction for half a dozen frank crary cu boulder
talk.politics.guns	re guns gone good riddance in article apr gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes surrender your arms soon enough officers will be around to collect them resistance is useless they will overwhelm you one at a time are you certain you didn t mean to post to alt french captain borg borg borg you d better rush home i hear kruschev calling come to papa jrm gnv ifas ufl edu i am endeavoring ma am to construct a mnemonic memory circuit using stone knives and bearskins spock humble typesetter
talk.politics.guns	re tanks against civilians was re that silly outdated bill koresh in article scottj iamac dml georgetown edu scottj magic dml georgetown edu john l scott writes picking nits over tanks firing the main gun or not deleted i think the point is being missed that it is apparantly acceptable for big government big brother to use tanks to control the people as long as they don t use the big gun but everything else is allright tanks deployed against civilians let alone firing on them with crew served weaponry a heavy machine gun is crew served is something both our press and government howl about instantly when done in some other country against civilians that have at most one shot at a time light small arms certainly nothing that places the people in or behind the tank in any real danger molotov coctails a round from a rifle or pistol deals with anybody approaching with one of those and snipers too often turn out to be strays from other cops guard army gunfire i don t know about the other people in this group or on the net but the idea of tanks being used to control civilians in anything that pretends to be a free society is outrageous when big government feels it is necessary to use that kind of force to stomp out protests even violent of the citizens that suggests that the government is totally out of control since that is effectively the government declaring war on its own people if the government was living up to its responsibility government of the people by the people not the lords and other elites who want to keep their good thing going the citizens wouldn t feel the need to be resorting to acts that need to be squashed with a military boot people do things like that because they have become convinced that it is the only option that remains other attempts to have grievances redressed have been ignored and yes there is a criminal element that will exploit this but the fact remains that the government has been unresponsive or such acts wouldn t be apt to happen still not an excuse to open up on civilians with tanks heavy machine guns or whatever its the old might makes right philosophy that is the hallmark of a government going rogue they don t like it tough we will simply squash them under an iron boot actually addressing their grievances in other than token fashion with huge volumes of hot air is just too inconvenient sort of a variation on mushroom management keep them in the dark smother them with shit and crush them when ready and these are the folks that many liberals are trying to arrange things so that they will have a monopoly on coercive force firearms that are than expensive toys by gutting the bill of rights cuz it just isn t progressive or doesn t fit in with modern thinking anymore unbelievable and i do believe amid the smoke confusion etc of a real riot situation that it would be possible for a tank to get away with firing the main gun into a building at close range one would hear an explosion among many explosions it is loud but it is not going to stand out like a pound bomb or a tactical nuke there would be a hole blown in the wall and some rubble but with tanks knocking over walls and other sources of buildings turning into rubble and other covering racket such as gunfire including s tacking away it would not stand out that much and could be explained by musta been a gas leak i think it could be done and not be reported under such conditions it is possible it is not like a tank driving down a quiet street on a sunday afternoon turning and firing you know that would stand out and be pretty impossible to cover up john l scott pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien
talk.politics.guns	re guns gone good riddance jrm gnv ifas ufl edu wrote you are loosing there is no question about it of those who vote your cause is considered an abomination no matter how hard you try public opinion is set against the rkba care to show some real numbers instead of something hci make up i thought so all foaming at the mouth shouting but nothing is ever said this is the end by the finish of the clinton administration your rkba will be null and void tough titty well we ll just have to wait and see about that won t we or are you quite satisified with living in your little fantasy snip cases of firearms abuses has ruined your cause there is nothing you snip the press is against you the public the voting public is against you the flow of history is against you this is it not true it is only those who are ignorant and are afraid to understand accept and deal with the real problems behind this violent society who are proposing gun control as a band aid solution may be i should refresh your memory with a quote from prez clintion it s the criminals stupid hey why is he cutting the budget for more prisons may be someone need to remind him of what he promised on second thought why bother surrender your arms soon enough officers will be around to collect them resistance is useless they will overwhelm you one at a time your neighbors will not help you they will consider you more if an immediate threat than the abstract criminal oooh waco ii coming to your living room soon when was the last time you turned off your tv can t remember i thought so too fucking bad you have gone the way of the kkk violent solutions are passe avoid situations which encourage criminals then you will be as safe as possible such as it is wait i got it this is a late april fool post right i didn t think anybody is stupid enough to post something like this good one guys this group was getting boring without holly and susan francis chiu professional student programmer tax payer
talk.politics.guns	re we re undertaxed poll kennejs a cs okstate edu kennedy james scot writes in article apr cunews carleton ca akasacou alfred carleton ca alexander kasacous writes in article veal utkvm utk edu veal utkvm utk edu david veal writes no what you said was that we had spent money on guns rather than people as canada does which is ridiculous once again i have over estimated the general level of intellegence of the average reader of rush limbaugh canada per capita spend more money on people where the us spend more money per capita on guns what exactly do you mean when you say the u s spends more per capita on guns than canada does are you talking about the u s government or are you talking about the purchase of guns by private citizens or both if you are referring to private citizens then your point is irrevelant because what individuals do with their money is essentially their business if on the other hand you meant that the u s government spends more per capita on guns than canada does then your point is relevant so if this is true then the u s needs to get its priorities straight people are more important than guns that is not to say that guns aren t important i m just saying that if the u s government does spend more per capita on guns than they do on people then something is awry he meant the us spends more per capita on guns than canada which isn t really surprising because we were so busy protecting the western world from the ussr that all other countries could slack off on their defense spending i would like to see if the us spends more per capita on people than canada does this is a true apples apples comparison where the previous post was apples oranges
talk.politics.guns	randy weaver trial update day note these trial updates are summarized from reports in the idaho statesman and the local nbc affiliate television station ktvb channel randy weaver kevin harris trial update day friday april was the fourth day of the trial synopsis defense attorney gerry spence cross examined agent cooper under repeated objections from prosecutor ronald howen spence moved for a mistrial but was denied the day was marked by a caustic cross examination of deputy marshal larry cooper by defense attorney gerry spence although spence has not explicitly stated so one angle of his stategy must involve destroying the credibility of agent cooper cooper is the government s only eyewitness to the death of agent degan spence attacked cooper s credibility by pointing out discrepancies between cooper s statements last september and those made in court cooper conceded that you have all these things compressed into a few seconds it s difficult to remember what went on first cooper acknowledged that he carried a mm colt commando submachine gun with a silenced barrel i thought a colt commando was a revolver cooper continued by stating that the federal agents had no specific plans to use the weapon when they started to kill weaver s dog when spence asked how seven cartridges could be fired by degan s m rifle when degan was apparently dead cooper could not say for sure that degan did not return fire before going down spence continued by asking with how many agents and to what extent had cooper discussed last august s events cooper responded if you re implying that we got our story together you re wrong counselor spence continued to advance the defense s version of the events namely that a marshal had started the shooting by killing the weaver s dog cooper disagreed assistant u s attorney ronald howen repeatedly objected to spence s virulent cross examination of agent cooper arguing that the questions were repetitive and spence was wasting time howen also complained that spence was improperly using a cross examination to advance the defense s version of the events u s district judge edward lodge sustained many of the objections however both lawyers persisted until judge lodge had the jury leave the room and proceded to admonish both attorneys i m not going to play games with either counsel this has been a personality problem from day so start acting like professionals spence told the judge that when all the evidence is in we ll see that his agent larry cooper testimony is not credible that he was panicked and cannot remember the sequence of events spence continued we re going to find that there is a very unlikely similarity almost as if it had come out of a cookie cutter between the testimony of mr cooper and the other witnesses spence then moved for a mistrial on the grounds that howen s repeated objections would prevent a fair trial we can t have a fair trial if the jury believes i m some sort of charlatan if the jury believes i m bending the rules or engaging in some delaying tactic or that i m violating court orders judge lodge called the notion that his repeated sustainings of howen s objections had somehow prejudiced the jury was preposterous and denied the motion for a mistrial lodge did tell howen to restrict his comments when objecting the trial resumed with the prosecution calling fbi special agent greg rampton the prosecution s purpose was simply to introduce five weapons found in the cabin as evidence however the defense seized on the opportunity to further address cooper s credibility defense attorney ellison matthews harris other attorney questioned rampton about the dog rampton stated that there were no specific plans to kill the weaver s dog without being detected matthews then had rampton read a septtember transcript in which rampton had said that cooper had said that the purpose of the silenced weapon was to kill the dog without being detected if the dog chased them rampton then acknowledged that he believed that cooper had said that but he could not remember when he then stated that i did not conduct the primary interview with deputy cooper but i have had conversations with him since the interview was conducted monday april will begin the fifth day of the trial scheduled is the continued cross examination of fbi agent greg rampton
talk.politics.guns	randy weaver trial update day here is a copy of my first update on the randy weaver trial after a large response about email messages i ve decided that there is sufficient interest here on t p g to warrant posting file follows hi folks as perhaps the only boise resident on the list i guess it kind of falls on me to keep people updated about the randy weaver kevin harris trial yesterday marked the seating of the jury apparently no other legal activities occurred the jury was selected and things start today more interesting is what happenned outside about a dozen weaver supporters showed up to stage a protest outside the courthouse one woman carried a sign that read who stands trial for the murder of vicki and son s name i forget weaver on the evening news she said i am here protesting because i believe in freedom of speech and freedom of religion i thought we all did nice sound bite grin the news reporter also interviewed some guy named tim who refused to give his last name not to prejudge the guy but he looked like a neo nazi he also said he expected many neo nazis to show up throughout the trial tim had been handing out leaflets in support of weaver and harris and the news had footage of a boise cop telling him to move along or he d arrest i don t know the finer points of this one perhaps there s a law against political activity within x feet of a courthouse or something what happenned to the first amendment most ominous of all was that the local reporter filmed an agent of the gestapo err atf with a minicam filming the protestors welcome to the world of big brother anyhow gerry spence came out and asked the protestors to leave because he didn t think it would help weaver s case any he said he was confident that once the evidence came out that weaver would be aquitted more stuff as it comes available drew
talk.politics.guns	s brady bill loopholes hi i ve just finished reading s and have several questions about the brady bills s and hr are these the current versions of the brady bill what is the status of these bills i ve heard they re in committee how close is that to being made law s and hr seem fairly similar are there any important differences i missed s seems to have some serious loopholes a s doesn t specify an appeals process to wrongful denial during the waiting period other than a civil lawsuit s has an appeals process once the required instant background check system is established but not before b the police are explicitly not liable for mistakes in denying approving using existing records so who would i sue in a above to have an inaccurate record corrected c s includes an exception to waiting period clause for if a person can convince the local chief law enforcement officer cleo of an immediate threat to his or her life or life of a household member but s doesn t say exactly what is considered a threat nor does it place a limit on how long the cleo takes to issue an exception statement true have i misunderstood any other holes with just s what s to stop a person with a clean record from buying guns grinding off the serial numbers and selling them to crooks at minimum what additional laws are needed to prevent this seems at min a gun counting scheme would be needed e g john doe owns n guns so if s passes i wouldn t be surprised to see legislation for stricter harder to forge i d s plus national gun registration justified by a need to make the brady bill work please comment i m mainly interested in specific problems with the current legislation i don t mean to start a general discussion of the merits of any all waiting period bills ever proposed marks shepard netcom com
talk.politics.guns	re nd amendment dead good date apr from jrm gnv ifas ufl edu yea there are millions of cases where yoy say that firearms deter criminals alas this is not provable in my case i am alive thanks to a gun that is provable even in your twisted logic i think that that there are actually few cases where this is so no wrong again brain trust the bulk of firarems are used against unworthy and unnesessary opponents huh what planet are you from the nd amendment is dead accept this find another way wrong not as long as freedom remains ps get a dictionary faustus gun of the month club hmmm glock mm this month sig next
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my in article apr vax oxford ac uk jaj vax oxford ac uk writes what all you turkey pro pistol and automatic weapons fanatics don t seem to realize is that the rest of us laugh at you you don t make me angry you just make me chuckle i remeber being in bellingham washington and seeing a you consider laughing at others civilized behavior what was i supposed to learn from your article treat people like dogs i am not impressed by your attitude
talk.politics.guns	re nd amendment dead good in article apr gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes in the near future federal martials will come for your arms no one will help you you are more dangerous to their thinking than the criminal this is your own fault the nd amendment is dead accept this find another way you know in many ways this might be just the kick we need to straighten things out in this country also people would have a need to replace guns with something else perhaps deadly sprays that would make mace and oc seem like water they would be lighter and easier to conceal guns are really old in design and as long as we have tons of them no one is motivated to design something better i m sure we could come up with some real nasty stuff if we tried and getting rid of these guns would get us moving on this track asap this is what we really want right stuff that s smaller lighter and far more deadly remember in this country we ll really scramble to accomplish impossible feats if we are motivated enough and i think self defense is high on our list of motivators
talk.politics.guns	re guns gone good riddance in article apr gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes you are loosing what s loosing of those who vote your cause is considered an abomination no matter how hard you try public opinion is set against the rkba i vote i don t consider rkba an abomination this is the end by the finish of the clinton administration your rkba will be null and void tough titty i m sure sarah brady would be delighted to hear your ranting and raving however clinton has not publically stated that he would like to repeal the second amendment tough titty to you you had better discover ways to make do without firearms the number of cases of firearms abuses has ruined your cause there is nothing you can do about it those who live by the sword shall die by it are we going to make do without like the people in new york city you know new york city that gun ban utopia you dream about with the millions of unregistered handguns new york city by the way has a very high crime rate perhaps you should know about a gungrabber s nightmare idaho here in idaho the police give concealed carry permits to anyone over without a criminal record there are no gungrabber schemes such as foids waiting periods gun a month or ltcs and horror of horrors you don t even need a permit to carry a concealed weapon while outside of city limits although you do need a permit for concealed carry in an automobile i feel a hell of a lot safer in boise than i would in your gun ban dream state e g washington d c the press is against you the public the voting public is against you the flow of history is against you this is it the voting public in idaho is staunchly pro gun both senators are nra endorsed a rated buy a clue pal surrender your arms soon enough officers will be around to collect them resistance is useless they will overwhelm you one at a time your neighbors will not help you they will consider you more if an immediate threat than the abstract criminal get out your wallet and buy another clue there are millions upon millions of pre i e non ed firearms out there they have a half life approaching eternity and cosmoline is not exactly tracked by the feds too fucking bad you have gone the way of the kkk violent solutions are passe avoid situations which encourage criminals then you will be as safe as possible such as it is gun control laws were passed to protect the kkk from blacks drew betz gozer idbsu edu brought into your terminal from the free state of idaho when you outlaw rights only outlaws will have rights spook fodder fema nsa clinton gore insurrection nsc semtex neptunium terrorist cia mi mi kgb deuterium
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card in article apr ucsu colorado edu fcrary ucsu colorado edu frank crary says i have never seen anyone else practice marksmanship by taking their gun out of their coat as fast as possible and start shooting that is the recommended way to practice with a ccw too aim alone is no d goo for defense if you can t get the gun rapidly very true but the way it was being done was just a little unusual it looked to me like they were practicing to shoot someone the point that i forgot to bring up here and this has nothing to do with being a gang member or not is that it is illegal to carry a concealed weapon in this area or in the state of illinois for that matter this is not to say that people in illinois don t carry concealed weapons illegaly but practicing like that when there are other people around wasn t too bright of an idea there isn t necessarily a conflict between practicing with a concealed weapon for self defence and practicing to shoot someone armed self defence does occasionally involve shooting an attacker frank crary cu boulder i agree if you don t practice at all and carry a gun for self defense you most likely would be in big trouble if a situation were to arise jason u uicvm cc uic edu
talk.politics.guns	re guns gone good riddance in article apr gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu says ah i love posts like this many people have already replied to this one as i knew they would i m not going to say much as this just seems like baiting to me someone decided to post to see how many people would get mad and reply i am just going to ignore it but i do have one thing to say see below surrender your arms soon enough officers will be around to collect them resistance is useless they will overwhelm you one at a time listen buddy if you re going to quote star trek get the quote right it was resistance is futile get it right the next time jason u uicvm cc uic edu
talk.politics.guns	re what to do if you shoot somebody in article apr uoft utoledo edu steiner jupiter cse utoledo edu jason think steiner says jason kratz u uicvm uic edu writes say you re in a situation where you have to pull a gun on somebody you give them a chance to get away but they decided to continue in their action anyway and you end up shooting and killing them my question is what do you do should you stay and wait for the cops or should you collect your brass if you re using a semi auto and get out of there provided of course you don t think that you have been seen what kind of laws are on the books regarding this type of situation what would be the most likely thing to happen to you if you stayed and waited and it was a first offense what would happen if you took off but someone saw you and you were caught ghods do you have any idea how much trouble you d get into for taking off like that leaving the scene of an auto accident is bad enough killing someone leaving is times worse who s going to seriously believe it was self defense when you took the time to collect your spent casings but officer i reload well like someone said in a reply to this it really all depends on the area that you live in see david veal s reply to this i have heard exactly the same thing that he said in his reply to fade away if you think that you haven t been seen i heard this from a police officer for the record though he was talking about in tennessee not everywhere even if you could get away with it you re still a fugitive do it nice legal keep your law abiding status send your story into the armed citizen column of american rifleman jason jason u uicvm cc uic edu
talk.politics.guns	re what to do if you shoot somebody in article veal utkvm utk edu veal utkvm utk edu david veal says in article u uicvm uic edu jason kratz u uicvm uic edu i have heard many opinions on this subject and would like to hear more from the people on the net say you re in a situation where you have to pull a gun on somebody you give them a chance to get away but they decided to continue in their action anyway and you end up shooting and killing them my question is what do you do should you stay and wait for the cops or should you collect your brass if you re using a semi auto and get out of there provided of course you don t think that you have been seen as a data point from tennessee a friend of mine and a police officer essentially recommends that if you can fade away even if you were perfectly justified you re likely in for a great deal of hassle a side note carrying a gun concealed is a misdemeanor this is exactly what i have heard before if you were to fade away and nobody saw you what kind of evidence would they be able to get to catch you this is assuming that you either collected your brass or had a revolver what kind of laws are on the books regarding this type of situation what would be the most likely thing to happen to you if you stayed and waited and it was a first offense what would happen if you took off but someone saw you and you were caught it s one of those by state things pretty much guess it s time to take a trip to the library and look at the illinois statutes again just for the record folks i m just asking this because i m curious i m just trying to find out from people who have read more on stuff like this david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al jason u uicvm cc uic edu
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my in article apr vax oxford ac uk jaj vax oxford ac uk writes what all you turkey pro pistol and automatic weapons fanatics don t seem to realize is that the rest of us laugh at you you don t make me angry you just make me chuckle i remeber being in bellingham washington and seeing a warning flammage to follow ah that british sense of humor probably got a real gut buster going when the ira blew that kid up a couple of weeks ago huh of course in britain your government has ordered you defenseless so your way of coping with violent criminals is to laugh at victims pick up truck in front of the car that my friend and i were in it had a bumper sticker proclaiming gun control is a firm grip on a now i m sure that that wanker thought he was pretty cool i don t know about a my own preference is for mm what he didn t realize was that we took a photo of the back of his truck and showed it to our friends when we got back to vancouver canada where i m from originally people were guffawing at the basic stupidity of such a sticker and the even greater stupidity of the person who put it there in the first place ah canada where the criminals don t bother with checking to see if the victims are home they just break on in america s a little different you see criminals worry a bit more about getting shot so they more frequently check to see if anyone s home i knew somebody else who went to one of your gun mart superstore places just so he could experience the sight of people putting guns and ammo into shopping carts i didn t believe it myself until i drove by one in vegas last year i ve heard gun world in phoenix arizona is fantastic i m hoping to visit there myself soon now that i live in britain i can see how the rest of the civilized world perceives you gun nut morons the bbc recently referred to the american penchant for pistols automatic weapons etc very appropriately it was called a national eccentricity ah britain again isn t that the place where you re guilty until proven innocent tell me mr jaj vax oxford ac uk didn t britain come begging to us gun nut morons in the early s for guns to defend yourselves against hitler seems as though your supposedly enlightened government had disarmed you aw chaps you can jolly give up your guns if that hitler man starts to threaten we can always hit up the yanks for a few guns they ve got a bloody eccentric habit about those guns you know just hand in your shotgun that s it thank you the only problem is that canada i hear is suffering from your national eccentricity in that easy to purchase weapons are being smuggled cross the border ain t it just amazing how those black markets work damn if those drugs from south america keep coming over our borders too even though we ve banned them guess we might as well legalize them makes you want to send fifty bucks to the libertarian party just thinking about it doesn t it anyway all you gun nut rush limbaugh fans please keep up your diatribes against brady and other evil liberal media plots you re so damn funny you provide endless amounts of entertainment in your arguments and examples of why someone should be allowed to carry a piece keep us all chuckling your close minded ignorance is without parallel i guess that s what happens when you re raised as a subject without rights your type gravitates to those who desire to hold power over you hell i miss those nra ads with gerald mcrainey now that i m over here those were like monty python sketches just chuckle as the cops beat you senseless to get a confession just laugh yourself silly when you find that confession is valid in court hey mate this is justice british style drew betz gozer idbsu edu brought into your terminal from the free state of idaho when you outlaw rights only outlaws will have rights spook fodder fema nsa clinton gore insurrection nsc semtex neptunium terrorist cia mi mi kgb deuterium
talk.politics.guns	cdn gun laws moderator nice summary keith thanks i talked to the federal dept of justice doj ottawa to try and clarify a bunch of things regarding changes to canadian gun laws i am posting here for informational purposes questions to email followup to t p g it is still technically feasible but almost impossible to get a concealed carry permit in canada this is contrary to what i was told by a police officer it is still legal to use lethal force such as a firearm to protect life also contrary to what the officer told me guns must be stored locked up and unloaded however regarding hi capacity magazines it is still not clear who will be exempt or how this will be managed this is up to each province the general idea is that exempt persons will receive a letter form authorizing them to possess the high capacity magazines apparently the authorization is to specify how many of these prohibited weapons you will be allowed to possess dealers will be allowed to order high capacity mags for those allowed to possess them but will not be allowed to stock them high capacity magazines converted to comply with the new limits will not be considered prohibited weapons amendments to the regulations specify some possible methods to alter the magazines some manufacturers beretta will be marketing reduced capacity magazines god knows how much they ll charge for these this covers most of what we discussed i have typed this from memory do not take it as gospel i am not a lawyer and i refuse to play one on tv keith p de solla p eng ipsc ontario oha nfa sfc ofah keith orion ic cmc ca frontenac rifle and pistol club
talk.politics.guns	sign of the times article in this morning s houston post negotiators send food to rebellious inmates as humanitarian gesture speaking about the ohio prison riot where they have killed at least one of the hostage guards i know it s not the same group but the mindset appears to be common to those what rule here lately they won t give diddley to the bd s in waco but they treat criminals as deserving of humanitarian gestures this is but another indicator that the criminal caste seems to enjoy more priviliges in today s society than their victims or other law abiding citizens what is it that makes the criminal so precious to the leaders of the system could it be that the criminal is one of the tools the authorities are using to excuse some of the rights negation they are trying to foist upon the law abiding citizen in the name of crime control don t solve the crime problem because then the citizen couldn t be held hostage to our help if the crime problem were solved in favor of the citizen victim at the expense of the criminal none of the crap such as rico and gun banning could be used as excuses to work the agenda of those who would control our every move and thought olx if i have to explain you wouldn t understand ye olde bailey bbs v bis v bis houston texas yob sccsi com home of alt cosuard
talk.politics.guns	re ban all firearms jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes firearms tend to fall into this low dollar pound area it would not be economic to smuggle them in all production would have to be local there are not all that many people who have both the skill and motivation to assemble worthwhile firearms from scratch high ranking crime figures could obtain imported uzis and such but the average person and average thug would be lucky to get a zip gun and would pay through the nose for it so why did the australian customs service make a public statement to a parliamentary committee last year that weapons smuggling was a problem which it was not able to control possibly criminals don t have your grasp of economics geoff miller g miller adfa edu au computer centre australian defence force academy
talk.politics.guns	re nd amendment dead good oh christ here we go again i m actually going to assume that this was a serious posting fool that i am in article apr gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes yea there are millions of cases where yoy say that firearms deter criminals alas this is not provable i think that that there are actually few cases where this is so and i suppose i should just take your word for it did you ever think that many people who use firearms to protect themselves might not admit to it because of the ridiculous laws which exist forbidding concealed carry the bulk of firarems are used against unworthy and unnesessary opponents those who posessa a cool jakcet you want those who would argue with you about a parking space those who would take your woman in short trivial and worthless causes i already own a cool jacket i ride a bicycle to work and park it behind my desk and if my woman decides to go with someone else i d be disappointed but killing her new suitor will probably not endear her to me any more than before frankly i ve never met a woman worth killing for anyway now an ar with a chrome barrel that s worth killing for too much of this has ruined you cause there is no recovery in the near future federal martials will come for your arms no one will help you you are more dangerous to their thinking than the criminal this is your own fault does this pinhead know something the rest of us don t i m not too worried about federal martials coming to get my guns the government can t seem to keep violent criminals in jail since they don t have enough prison space and the legal system is over burdened anyway where are they going to put all the millions of gun owners who won t fork over their weapons maybe you d like to volunteer the services of your humble abode since you obviously feel sooooo strongly about this the nd amendment is dead accept this find another way your argument has been rendered useless accept this find another newsgroup lee gaucher nra my opinions gaucher sam cchem berkeley edu no one else s
talk.politics.guns	ohio house bill otto beatty s military weapons ban note ohio legislation unlike federal legislation shows the entire law as it would be changed by the legislation these parts are in all capitals the rest i e current law is in regular type as introduced th general asembly regular session h b no represenative beatty a bill to amend sections and and to enact section of the revised code to expand the defintion of dangerous ordnance to include military weapons that do not use bolt action to increase the penalty for a violation of the prohibition against possession of dangerous ordnance to prohibit any person from acquiring a military weapon on or after the act s effective date to require the licensure of military weapons acquired for aproper purpose prior to the act s effective dte to prohibit a person from importing manufacturing or selling a military weapon and to declare an emergency be it enacted by the general assembly of the state of ohio section that sections and be amended and section of the revised code be enacted to read as follows sec as used in section to of the revised code a deadly weapon means any instrument device or thing capable of inflicting death and designed or specially adapted for use as a weapon or possessed carried or used as a weapon b firearm means any deadly weapon capable of expelling or propelling one or more projectiles by the action of an explosive or combustible propellant firarms includes an unloaded firearm and any firearm which is inoperable but which can readily be rendered operable when determining whether a firearm is capable of expelling or propelling one or more projectiles by the action of an explosive or combustible propellant the trier of fact may rely upon circumstancial evidence including but not limited to the representations and actions of the individual exercising control over the firearm c handgun means any firearm designed to be fired while held in one hand d semi automatic firearm means any firearm designed or specially adapted to fire a single cartridge and automatically chamber a suceeding cartridge ready to fire with a single function of the trigger e automatic firearm means any firearm designed or specially adapted to fire a succession of cartridges with a single function of the trigger automatic firearm also means any semi automatic firearm designed or specially adapted to fire more than thirty one cartridges without reloading other than a firearm chambering only caliber short long or long rifle cartridges f sawed off firearm means a shotgun with a barrel less than eighteen inches long or a rifle with a barrel less than sixteen inches long or a shotgun or rifle less than twenty six inches long overall g zip gun means any of the following any firearm of crude and extemporized manufacture any device including without limitation a starter s pistol not designed as a firearm but which is specially adapted for use as a firearm any industrial tool signalling device or safety device not designed as a firearm but which as designed is capable of use as such a firearm when possessed carried or used as a firearm h explosive device means any device designed or specially adapted to cause physical harm to persons or property by means of an explosion and consisting of an explosive substance or agency and a means to detonate it explosive device includes without limitation any bomb any explosive demolition device any blasting cap or detonator containing an explosive charge and any pressure vessel which has been knowingly tampered with or arranged so as to explode i incendiary device means any firebomb and any device designed or specially adapted to cause physical harm to persons or property by means of fire and consisting of an incendiary substance or agency and a means to ignite it j ballistic knife means a knife with a detachable blade that is propelled by a spring operated mechanism k dangerous ordinance means any of the following except as provided in division l of this section any automatic or sawed off firearms zip gun or ballistic knife any explosive device or incendiary device nitroglycerin nitrocellulose nitrostarch petn cyclonite tnt picric acid and other high explosives amatol tritonal tetrytol pentolite pecretol cyclotol and other high explosive compositions plastic explosives dynamite blasting gelatin gelatin dynamite sensitized ammonium nitrate liquid oxygen blasting explosives blasting powder and other blasting agents and any other explosive substance having sufficient brisance or power to be particularly suitable for use as a military explosive or for use in mining quarrying excavating or demolitions any firearm rocket launcher mortar artillery piece grenade mine bomb torpedo or similar weapon designed and manufactured for military purposes and the ammunition for that weapon any firearm muffler or silencer any military weapon any detachable magazine magazine drum belt feed strip or similar device that has a capacity of or that readily can be restored or converted to accept more than fifteen rounds of ammunition any combination of parts that is intended by the owner for use in converting any firearm or other device into a dangerous ordinance l dangerous ordnance does not include any of the following any firearm including a military weapon and the ammunition for that weapon and regardless of its actual age which employs a percussion cap or other obsolete ignition system or which is designed and safe for use only with black powder and any pistol rifle or shotgun designed or suitable for sporting purposes unless the firearm is either of the following a a military weapon as issued or as modified and the ammunition for that weapon b an automatic or sawed off firearm any cannon or other artilery piece which regardless of its actual age is of a type in accepted use prior to has no mechanical hydraulic pneumatic or other system for absorbing recoil and returning the tube into battery without displacing the carriage and is designed and safe for use only with black powder black powder priming quills and percussion caps possessed and lawfully used to fire a cannon of a type defined in division l of this section during displays celebrations organized matches or shoots and target practice and smokeless and black powder primers and percussion caps possed and lawfully used as a propellant or ignition device in small arms or small arms ammunition dangerous ordinance which is inoperable or inert and cannot readily be rendered operable or activated and which is kept as a trophy souvenir curio or museum piece any device which is expressly excepted from the definition of a destructive device pursuant to the gun control act of stat u s c a as amended and regulations issued under that act m military weapon means any of the following any firearm that originally was manufactured for military use or a copy of any such firearm if the firearm is not a bolt action firearm any model of any of the following firearms that is a semi automatic firearm and is a rifle or any model of any copy of any of the following firearms that is a semi automatic firearm and is a rifle a armalite ar b auto ordnance thompson models a and m c avtomat kalashnikov d poly tech ak s e china sports ak bullpup f mitchell ak and m g barrett light fifty model a h baretta ar i bushmaster auto rifle j calico m and m k colt ar l commando arms carbine mark mark and mark m universal carbine enforcer n american arms arm and aky o daewoo max and max p fabrique nationale fn fal fn lar and fn fnc q famas mas r feather at s federal kc and xc t galil ar and arm u goncz high tech carbine v heckler and koch hk hk hk and psg w mandall tac carbine x ruger mini sf folding stock model y sig amt and series z springfield armory sar g bm alpine and m a carbine aa sterling mk and mark bb steyr aug cc uzi carbine and mini carbine dd valmet m s m m and m bullpup carbine ee weaver arms nighthawk ff military m and military m carbine gg springfield armory m a assault hh thompson a with drum magazine ii plainfield commando universe carbine jj cobray m with or without silencer kk spectre auto carbine ll swd cobray mm armi jager ap and ap commando nn armscorp of america israeli fn fal oo clayco sks carbine pp dragunov sniper qq emf ap rr iver johnson pm p paratrooper ss norinco sks tt partisan avenger uu sigarms sg sp and sg sp vv squires bingham m ww wilkinson terry carbine any model of any of the following firearms that is a semi automatic firearm and is a pistol or any model of any copy of any of the following firearms that is a semi automatic firearm and is a pistol a bushmaster auto pistol b calico p auto pistol c ebcin nj iv mp and mp d feather mini at e goncz high tech pistol f holmes mp and mp g intratec tec and scorpion h iver johnson enforcer i ingram mac and mac j mitchell arms spectre auto k scarab skorpion l sterling mk m uzi pistol n universal enforcer o wilkinson linda auto pistol any model of any of the following firearms that is a semi automatic firearm and is a shotgun or any model of any copy of any of the following firearms that is a semi automatic firearm and is a shotgun a franchi spas and law b striker and street sweeper c benelli m super d mossberg bullpup e usas auto shotgun sec a no person shall knowingly acquire have or carry any dangerous ordnance no person shall knowingly use any dangerous ordnance b this section does not apply to any of the following officers agents or employees of this or any other state or the united states members of the armed forces of the united states or the organized militia of this or any other state and law enforcement officers to the extent that any such person is authorized to acquire have carry or use dangerous ordnance and is acting within the scope of his duties importers manufacturers dealers and users of explosives having a license or user permit issued and in effect pursuant to the organized crime control act of stat u s c and any amendments or additions to or reenactments of that act with respect to explosives and explosive devices lawfully acquired possessed carried or used under the laws of this state and applicable federal law importers manufactuers and dealers having a license to deal in destructive devices or their ammunition issued and in effect pursuant to the gun control act of stat u s c and any amendments or additions to or reenactments of that act with respect to dangerous ordnance lawfully acquired possessed carried or used under the laws of this state and applicable federal law persons to whom surplus ordnance has been sold loaned or given by the secretary of the army pursuant to a stat and u s c and any amendments or additions to or reenactments of that act with respect to dangerous ordnance when lawfully possessed and used for the purpose specified in that section owners of dangerous ordnance registered in the national firearms registration and transfer record pursuant to the act of october stat u s c and any amendments or additions to or reenactments of and regulations issued under the act carriers warehousemen and others engaged in the business of transporting or storing goods for hire with respect to dangerous ordnance lawfully transported or stored in the usual course of their business and in compliance with the laws of this state and applicable federal law the holders of a license or temporary permit issued and in effect pursuant to section of the revised code with respect to dangerous ordnance lawfully acquired possessed carried or used for the purposes and in the manner specified in the license or permit c division a of this section does not apply to the acquisition having or carrying of dangerous ordnance that is a military weapon if both of the following apply the person who acquires has or carries the dangerous ordnance in question acquired it before the effective date of this amendment as a collector s item or for a legitimate research scientific educational industrial or other proper purpose no later than the close of business on the seventh day after the effective date of this amendment the person who acquired the dangerous ordnance in question in accordance with division c of this section submitted an application pursuant to section of the revised code for a license to have and carry it and the application has not been denied or a valid license has been issued to the person d divisions a and of this section do not apply to the acquisition having carrying or using of any dangerous ordnance described in division k of section of the revised code that was acquired prior to the effective date of this amendment e whoever violates this section is quilty of unlawful possession of dangerous ordnance a an aggravated felony of the first degree sec a any person who acquired a military weapon before the effective date of this section shall file a written application for a license to have and carry the military weapon with the sheriff of the county or safety director or police chief of the municipal corporation where the applicant resides or has his principal place of business the application shall be filed no later than the close of business on the seventh day after the effective date of this section and shall be accompanied by a filing fee of fifty dollars the person shall file a separate application and pay a separate filing fee for each military weapon that he has or intends to carry the application shall contain all of the following information the name age address occupation and business address of the applicant if the applicant is a natural person or the name address and principal place of business of the applicant if the applicant is a corporation a description of the military weapon for which a license is requested including the serial number and all identification marks a statement of the purpose for which the military weapon was acquired and for which it is to be possessed carried or used any other information that the issuing authority may require in giving effect to this section the oath of the applicant that the information on the application is true b no later than the close of business on the fourteenth day after an application for a license to have and carry a military weapon has been filed under division a of this section the issuing authority shall either approve the application and issue a license to the applicant or deny the application and send a letter of denial by ordinary mail to the applicant after conducting any necessary investigation the issuing authority shall issue a license to an applicant whom it determines satisfies the following criteria a the applicant is twenty one years of age or older if the applicant is a natural person b it appears that the applicant will possess and carry the military weapon as a collector s item or for a legitimate scientific educational industrial or other proper purpose c it appears that the applicant has sufficient competence to have and carry the military weapon and that proper precautions will be taken to ensure the security of the military weapon and the safety of persons and property d the applicant otherswise is not prohibited by law from having or carrying dangerous ordnance a license issued pursuant to division b of this section shall be valid for one year after the date of its issuance the license shall be renewed pursuant to division c of this section c except as provided in division c of this section any person who is issued a license under division b of this section shall renew the license by filing an application for renewal by regular mail with the sheriff of the county or the safety director or police chief of the municipal corporation who was the issuing authority of the license an application for renewal shall be filed annually no later than one year after the date on which the license was issued or last renewed each sheriff and each safety director and peace officer of a municipal corporation shall make available applications for the renewal of a license issued under division b of this section in the application the applicant under oath shall update the information submitted in the previous application for a license or the renewal of a license the application for the renewal of a license shall be accompanied by a fee of five dollars the applicant shall file a seperate application for renewal and pay a seperate renewal fee for each military weapon that he intends to continue to have and carry a person who has changed his residence or principal place of business to a location outside of the jurisdiction of the issuing authority subsequent to the issuance or renewal of a license under this section shall renew his license by filing an application in the manner prescribed by division a of this section with the sheriff of the county or the safety director or police chief of the municipal corporation where he then resides or has his principal place of business when making an application to renew a license after a change in residence or place of business the applicant shall give notice of the change of address by regular mail to the original issuing authority for the license and the state fire marshall on notification forms prescribed by the sheriff safety director or police chief from whom he seeks renewal d a license to have and carry a military weapon shall identify the person to whom it is issued identify the military weapon for which it is issued state the purpose identified in division b b of this section for which the military weapon will be possessed and carried state its expiration date and list all restrictions on the having or carrying of the military weapon as prescribed by the laws of this state and applicable federal law e any person who is issued a license to have and carry a military weapon under this section and who changes his address shall notify the issuing authority of the change of his address no later than ninety days after the change has occurred f the issuing authority shall forward to the state fire marshall a copy of each license issued or renewed under this section the state fire marshall shall keep a permanent file of all licenses issued or renewed under this section g the issuing authority shall cause each application fee of fifty dollars filed under division a of this section to be deposited in the general fund of the county or muncipal corporation served by the issuing authority the issuing authority shall cause two dollars and fifty cents of each renewal fee filed under division c of this section to be deposited in the general fund of the county or municipal corporation served by the issuing authority and shall send two dollars and fifty cents of each renewal fee to the treasurer of state for deposit in the state treasury to the credit of the general revenue fund h whoever violates division a of this section is guilty of failing to apply for the licensure of a military weapon a felony of the fourth degree whoever violates division c of this section is guilty of failing to apply for renewal of a license for a military weapon a misdemeanor of the first degree i a military weapon that is not licensed as required by this section is contraband as defined in section of the revised code and is subject to forfeiture under section of the revised code sec a no person shall do any of the following import manufacture possess for sale sell or furnish to any person any military weapon recklessly sell lend give or furnish any firearm to any person prohibited by section or of the revised code from acquiring or using any firearm or recklessly sell lend give or furnish any dangerous ordnance to any person prohibited by section or of the revised code from acquiring or using any dangerous ordnance possess any firearm or dangerous ordnance with purpose to dispose of it in violation of division a of this section manufacture possess for sale sell or furnish to any person other than a law enforcement agency for authorized use in police work any brass knuckles cestus billy blackjack sandbag switchblade knife springblade knife gravity knife or similar weapon when transferring any dangerous ordnance to another negligently fail to require the transferes to exhibit any identification license or permit showing him to be authorized to acquire dangerous ordnance pursuant to section of the revised code or negligently fail to take a complete record of the transaction and forthwith forward a copy of the record to the sheriff of the county or safety director or police chief of the municipality where the transaction takes place knowingly fail to report to law enforcement authorities forthwith the loss or theft of any firearm or dangerous ordnance in such person s possession or under his control b whoever violates this section is quilty of unlawful transactions in weapons violation of division a of this section is an aggravated felony of the first degree violation of division a or oof this section is a felony of the third degree violation of division a or of this section is a misdemeanor of the second degree violation of division of this section is a midemeanor of the fourth degree section that existing section and of the revised code are hereby repealed section this act is hereby declared to be an emergency measure necessary for the immediate preservation of the public peace health and safety the reason for this necessity is that with immediate action this act will prohibit the continued purchase possession and use of military weapons and as a result will ameliorate a substantial threat of death and injury to the public caused by the misuse of improper use of these weapons therefore this act shall go into immediate effect larry cipriani l v cipriani att com
talk.politics.guns	re guns gone good riddance in article apr gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes you are loosing there is no question about it you can t spell there is no question about it of those who vote your cause is considered an abomination no matter how hard you try public opinion is set against the rkba we must be reading different public opinion polls i agree that the misguided public would like to see assault weapons banned mainly because they are being lied to by the media about the frequency of their use in violent crime but if public opinion were so dead set against the rkba you can bet that idiots like metzenbaum and schumer would be seeing their foolish bills getting passed through congress a lot easier than they are and as governments go broke and can no longer protect their citizens you can bet that the american people will start to really appreciate the usefulness of firearms contrary to what you might think time is probably on our side not yours this is the end by the finish of the clinton administration your rkba will be null and void tough titty yeah right don t hold your breath my condolences on the discovery of uncomfortable resilience in your mammary glands but this has nothing to do with the issue at hand ridiculous tripe deleted the press is against you the public the voting public is against you the flow of history is against you this is it yeah the liberal press doesn t like us much but you can t really expect coherent thought from them anyway their opinions are based more on a desire to appear politically correct than on facts which are generously provided by the fbi if they d bother to put on their birkenstocks and go to the library to read them most of my friends are anti gun and without exception none of them bases his her opinions on facts they would rather believe despite all evidence to the contrary that disarming law abiding citizens would make the world more civilized when all it really does is make us all sheep they would rather wallow in their pitiful liberal white guilt about how society has driven the criminal to rob rape and murder they support spending millions of public dollars protecting the rights of scum who have already demonstrated that they have no regard for society or its laws they ignore the fact that areas with the strictest gun control nyc dc have the worst crime and areas with little gun control vt nh id have very little crime in comparison but they have to ignore this because otherwise they would need to confront the fact that law abiding citizens who own guns are not the ones that are causing most of the trouble in society oh no we certainly can t accept that but i guess i have faith that when crime starts making significant inroads into their neighborhoods and starts directly hurting them and their families they will probably whistle a different tune they just better hope it isn t too late then surrender your arms soon enough officers will be around to collect them resistance is useless they will overwhelm you one at a time hmmm i wasn t expecting company tonight i might be able to whip up a quick cheese and cracker plate but they should probably bring their own drinks do i have time to vacuum the rug too fucking bad you have gone the way of the kkk violent solutions are passe avoid situations which encourage criminals then you will be as safe as possible such as it is i m glad you ended the posting here your medication seems to have worn off lee gaucher nra my opinions gaucher sam cchem berkeley edu no one else s
talk.politics.guns	re nd amendment dead good excerpts from netnews talk politics guns apr nd amendment dead good by jrm gnv ifas ufl edu yea there are millions of cases where yoy say that firearms deter criminals alas this is not provable i think that that there are actually few cases where this is so excerpted from a letter i wrote a while ago although less apparent to those who have not researched the facts personal protection is as legitimate a reason as sport for the private citizen to own a gun the most recent research is that of dr gary kleck of the florida state university school of criminology he found that handguns are more often used by victims to defeat crime than by criminals to commit it vs respectively in this study these figures are even more encouraging when you consider the number of crimes that never occur because of the presence of a gun in the hands of a law abiding private citizen in a national institute of justice study of ten state prisons across the country they found that of the felons surveyed had aborted at least one crime because they believed that the intended victim was armed and agreed that most criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police one of the most heinous of crimes is that against the women of this country it has been my recent observation that more women are purchasing handguns for defense in response to the present danger of these assaults this should be taken as encouraging news if the events of orlando florida are any indicator in the late s the female populace was plagued with a series of brutal assaults just the publicity of the record number of women buying guns and obtaining training resulted in an decrease in rape for that area the only city of its size in the country to experience a decrease of crime for that year additionally a us justice department study of attempted rapes showed that overall when rape is attempted the completion rate is but when a woman defends herself with a gun the completion rate drops to g kleck point blank guns and violence in america aldine de gruyter ny jd wright ph rossi armed and considered dangerous a survey of felons and their firearms aldine de gruyter ny unlike cats dogs never scratch you when you wash them they just become very sad and try to figure out what they did wrong dave barry seth eliot dept of material science and engineering carnegie mellon univerity pittsburgh pa arpa eliot cmu edu or se andrew cmu edu bitnet se andrew cmccvb
talk.politics.guns	definition of nd the debate over the second amendment rages on arguments continue over what a well regulated militia is and what trkba means in practical terms however the only authority in this area is a binding court decision on the matter even a decision in this area is subject to an overturning by a higher court is there anyone who has the facts of a legal precedent preferably a supreme court decision on the specific meaning of the nd amendment
talk.politics.guns	re cnn for sale in article aej d cmuvm bitnet aej d cmuvm bitnet writes in article uupcb yob sccsi com jim wray yob sccsi com jim wray says bill vojak bv i read in the paper yestarday that ted turner wants to trim down bv his media holdings and is putting cnn up for sale the potential bv bidder time warner of course sigh just what we need maybe now s the time for us the nra goa ccrtkba saf et al to band together and buy cnn as our voice wouldn t that be sumpin broadcast the truth for a change and be able to air a favorable pro gun item or two i would like to see this happen i don t think it will i don t think the average gun owner will take any notice of what is happening until they break down his door but i will go on record publicly to the effect that i will contribute a minimum of to the buy out fund if it can be organized and made viable anybody else want to put their money where their mouth is there ar million gun owners out there if and it s a big and not very realistic if we got hold of cnn the anti gun bullshit would stop right there why won t it happen because nobody will get off their ass and make it happen nuts i will join the ranks here if someone has the ability to actually put this thing together and get enough support i ll also contribute to the effort and jeeze people i m a student with no job yet and i will put up my own hard earned savings if it means we have a shot at getting the truth told on the airwaves count me in mike ruff this above all to thine own s t r i d e r mikey ccwf cc utexas edu self be true polonius those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety b franklin
talk.politics.guns	re guns in backcountry no thanks reimer uinpla npl uiuc edu paul e reimer writes there are a lot of automobile accidents but atleast there is some regulation to try to combat this when i got my drivers license i had to take a drivers safety class i have to be licensed to drive my car must be registered i must at least where i live have liability insurance on both myself driving and my car if someone else had an accident with it hmm wouldn t manditory saftey classes registration of both the owner and gun and manditory liability insurance be nice for gun owners as i m sure others will have pointed out to you by now none of the above measures are required for you on your own property you do not have to have a license your car does not have to be registered or inspected and you do not have to have insurance or safety training classes when you own and operate that vehicle on your own premises if you are going to make use of this dubious analogy at least make it accurate and by the way in texas you can drive a car in public with the proper credentials but an ordinary civilian can t carry a gun legally in public to save his her life so i won t even consider registration manadatory safety classes or manadatory liability insurance unless i get a federal law repealing all local state and federal gun control laws which abridge the second amendment and a non discretionary federal weapons carry permit good anywhere in the united states come on you wanted the analogy mike ruff this above all to thine own s t r i d e r mikey ccwf cc utexas edu self be true polonius those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety b franklin
talk.politics.guns	re guns gone good riddance jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes you are loosing loosing well i ll avoid the spelling flames and see if this person can make up for it there is no question about it oh there s lots of question about it people are becoming more aware each day that their rights are being threatened so much so that nra membership is growing at the rate of nearly per day we are slowly gaining our rightful voice despite the biases prejudices and veiled motives of the liberal media and anti gun politicians we will win of those who vote your cause is considered an abomination no matter how hard you try public opinion is set against the rkba what do you base this on some highly skewed poll conducted by nbc news the same group who faked gm pickup explosions just to make news right this is the end by the finish of the clinton administration your rkba will be null and void tough titty it is true that we face even greater obstacles to our rights betrayed by those lying politicians who swear an oath to protect the constitution from all enemies both foreign and domestic but the people will take only so many lies and deceits you had better discover ways to make do without firearms the number of cases of firearms abuses has ruined your cause there is nothing you can do about it those who live by the sword shall die by it then the criminals who live by murder shall die by it honest law abiding citizens need have no fear on that count you however will evidently die by or at least in ignorance and the number of firearms self defenses shall spell out our ultimate victory the press is against you the public the voting public is against you the flow of history is against you this is it the flow of history was against the founding fathers but they managed to successfully form the first real free republic on the face of this planet a republic that has become the model for all others to follow the press is against us for its own selfish motivations and the people will soon realize the depths of deceit being spread by that media and nullify its ill directed power the people are with us surrender your arms soon enough officers will be around to collect them resistance is useless they will overwhelm you one at a time your neighbors will not help you they will consider you more if an immediate threat than the abstract criminal i shall never submit to an illegal unconstitutional police state i will take my own vow to uphold the constitution and i shall defend it and my country against a tyrannical government gone mad should it become necessary too fucking bad you have gone the way of the kkk violent solutions are passe avoid situations which encourage criminals then you will be as safe as possible such as it is i will not be your sacrificial sheep and i shall not bow down to you or anyone else who seeks to control my life being an unarmed target is the surest way of encouraging criminals and believe me i shall avoid it as much as possible then i shall be as safe as possible i will answer with violence only when no other option exists but i shall surely answer mike ruff this above all to thine own s t r i d e r mikey ccwf cc utexas edu self be true polonius those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety b franklin
talk.politics.guns	re nd amendment dead good jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes yea there are millions of cases where yoy say that firearms deter criminals alas this is not provable i think that that there are actually few cases where this is so you think wrong ask the fbi they ve got the proof look it up the bulk of firarems are used against unworthy and unnesessary opponents those who posessa a cool jakcet you want those who would argue with you about a parking space those who would take your woman in short trivial and worthless causes you lie like a snake the vast majority of the million firearms in this country are never used in anger your feelings notwithstanding too much of this has ruined you cause there is no recovery in the near future federal martials will come for your arms no one will help you you are more dangerous to their thinking than the criminal this is your own fault we will overcome the kind of blind pig headed utterly stupid idiocy that you and others spout in a vain attempt to further your own agendas we will make the truth be known despite your best efforts to the contrary the nd amendment is dead accept this find another way the second amendment won t be dead unless it is repealed that won t happen ever accept this find another way to try and control other s lives because we see you for what you are and we are not fooled mike ruff this above all to thine own s t r i d e r mikey ccwf cc utexas edu self be true polonius those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety b franklin
talk.politics.guns	re with friends like these l neil smith papresco undergrad math uwaterloo ca paul prescod writes some guns will get through but far fewer and far less people will die because of them do you have any statistical evidence to back you claim that requires another limitation of the citizenry freedom steve podleski phone nasa lewis research center cleveland ohio email pspod hooch lerc nasa gov
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in r qk innc m clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com writes in article c rynw iz news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes i balance my gut reaction to question authority together with the independent facts as i see them on video i usually adopt the scenario that is simplest and most plausible i do not generally believe in conspiracy theories that involve complicated and unlikely scenarios then answer the question why was no one else permitted to talk to koresh koresh had a lawyer deguin who he spoke to in person several times during the last few weeks it cannot be denied that if they had left them alone there would have been no fire yesterday this strikes me as a tad ingenous if x had done note done y then z would never have happened i tend to place tha responsibility on the group person actually committing the act not on those whon forced them to do it after all to take an extreme example if the british were not in northern ireland the ira would not be forced to place bombs in shopping centers that said this whole sorry story was a totally unecessary utterly fucked up mess from the get go semper fi jammer jim miller texas a m university and i don t speak for uh which is too bad because they could use the help become one with the student billing system be the student billing system power finds its way to those who take a stand stand up ordinary man rik emmet gil moore mike levine triumph
talk.politics.guns	letter to the president here s a copy of a letter i m e mailing to the slickster at his address of compuserve com to william j clinton president of the united states of america mr president i am writing to express my utter outrage at the conduct of various government agencies in regards to the tragedy in waco i demand the dismissal or resignation of lloyd bensen secretary of the treasury who bears responsibility for the initial helicopter and grenade attack by the atf against the branch davidians and of janet reno who authorized the final assault on the very day that we were commemorating the warsaw ghetto revolt and i would truly appreciate it if you would make sure something like this never happens again on your watch respectfully yours kenneth d whitehead get involved gang it s your republic let s take it back i will be much more willing to believe the government s side of the waco story after we are allowed to hear from the survivors so far all we ve gotten has been censored by the very people who have the most to cover up and i d really like to know how they got the press who complained so loudly about being kept off the front lines during the gulf war be such obedient lap dogs in waco kind of makes me wonder if this so called freedom of the press isn t highly overrated ken whitehead kdw odin icd ab com
talk.politics.guns	re insane gun toting wackos unite in article heimdall sdrc com crrob sony sdrc com rob davis writes do you know how many deaths each year are caused by self inflicted gun shot wounds by people wearing thigh holsters no but i have several other breakdowns of accidental shootings i ve never seen one that specifically provides the info that davis insists that he has so i d love to have a cite if you fall for example and land on the handgun or cause a sudden blow the gun will discharge wrong there s one gun design where that can happen and it is supposed to be carried with the hammer over an unloaded chamber cocking the gun turns the cylinder so that a loaded cylinder is under the hammer in other words it can be usefully carried in a safe manner other handgun designs don t have that property if their trigger isn t pulled the hammer can t hit the firing pin the number of people killed in this manner far outweighs the number of deaths caused by animal attacks or wacko attacks combined the breakdowns that i do have include the above category from them i can safely say that if davis is right in all of his claims a large negative number of people are killed by animals because we know that the number of killings by wackos is reasonably large and that the number of accidents due to gun failures which is a superset of the described circumstance is near zero i can find the figures if you don t believe me please do include a cite for those of us who like looking at context make sure that your source excludes other types of accidents and suicides that are misreported gun cleaning accident is police speak for the family needs the insurance money andy
talk.politics.guns	re proper gun control what is proper gun control in l a the first recorded survivor of a shot to the heart that lady not only killed her attacker but chased him down to do it all four of her shots fired after she had been shot struck the perp atta girl the bullet entered her on a downward angle went through the apex of her heart down through the diaphragm clipped her liver and destroyed her spleen it then exited her back leaving a tennis ball sized hole she died about six times on the operating table but was out of the hospital in days and was back on full duty in eight months she was off duty at the time and not wearing her vest she was on her way home so happened to have her gun no she doesn t think civilians should have the same rights sigh well if police think they are so special that only they are worthy of self defense perhaps we start putting the arm on police maybe we should start demanding that police are only police when on duty that after that they are just like the ordinary disarmed helpless chumps they consider civilians let s prohibit arms carrying by police when off duty or if they make the assertion that well i need to maintain my gun let s make it regulation that they can carry an unloaded firearm home that it s only fair that they be just as helpless as poor schmuck coming home from his computer operator job nra director ex san jose cop leroy pyle states in the latest swat magazine that anti cops better watch out for this schism between rkba folks and the police he asks the rhetorical question of what if what s left of the gun lobby starts demanding the disarmament of the police well i guess anti gun cops who think only they should be armed along with the wealthy and politically connected should be made to realize that screwing can cut in ways they have yet to imagine
talk.politics.guns	re the pill for deer no hunting in article apr gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes you might have missed the u s news world report excerpt i posted it is fairly consistant with other such polls finding that approximately of households have at least one firearm ok a near majority actually own firearms but i will still claim that the vast majority never needs to use them or even threaten anyone with them to self defense incidents a year doesn t count with you what do they do right or are they just lucky maybe they re just unlucky if a rapist pulls a woman into an alley in boston chances are almost certain that she won t be counted as one of those self defenders because our local constabulary didn t consider it important that she be allowed to arm herself even though the shotgun she owns at home makes her show up in the gun owner column in either case this means the average threat level in this country is rather low ironic words for somebody who lives in florida the average threat level in florida has been reduced by a liberal ccw policy it s well known that your local thugs like to target tourists precisely because they are less likely to be carrying than your natives come on up to boston or nyc or washington dc and see how much diddlysquat the average threat level in the country means to a resident there i think you have weapons on the brain i never said that these alternative means of self protection involved any hardware why are good neighborhoods good it isn t because every person is armed to the teeth it is because of attitude and cooperation in the good neighborhoods the residents make themselves aware of their neighbors and notice when strangers are lurking around good neighborhoods form groups like crime watch to increase this effect and the relative effectiveness of the police when hostiles are arrested the good neighbors step up and say that s the one officer he was robbing mr jones house sometimes this works sometimes it just lands your good neighbors on the dance card for the next wave of drive bys someone here once told a story about la gangs moving into phoenix i ve misplaced the original text but the story started with one resident calling the cops on a gang member sure enough a few nights later there was a drive by performed at the resident s house except that this time unlike in la the entire street came out and returned fire putting an end to the car s occupants the gang packed up and left of course in la or in a place like florida after the hurricane your first problem is to find an officer to step up to and tell anything in short the alternative to firepower is gangs or at least a benificent manifestation of that social cooperative replace lead with flesh the flesh makes a better conversationalist too and you can invite it over for a block party look nobody is arguing this i have a fire extinguisher at home that doesn t mean i can be careless about tossing my burnt matches on the carpet i live carefully monitor the woodstove get my flue cleaned twice a year and test my smoke alarms annually but if despite all this a fire does start it s too late for any of these things except the extinguisher but legality and legitimacy also matter if a government s charter makes a rule which the government then violates it is violated the basis for its existance enforcement of its will becomes a matter solely of force of arms oliver north the man is positively worshiped in many all american conservative quarters he and big ron set up a secret government and did all sorts of severely illegal deeds the kind of stuff you and i would be doing twenty to life for yet he walks free this bs happens all the time in fact it happens so much that no one really cares anymore legitimacy is a non issue legality is a non issue so long as we get t bones and our mtv who gives a rats ass you seem to be agreeing with your opponent you can t trust your government to protect you from abusers and violators white collar blue collar epauletted or tank shirted ultimately no one has the power to enforce your rights but you unless you ve given up that power no i claimed that no one is interested in the statistical aspects of the argument pure emotion like the abortion issue too many people fit that category that is true some of us like to believe that they are uninterested in the facts behind the case for gun ownership because they ve been conditioned to believe that there aren t any you seem content to underestimate the electorate i m willing to try to raise their consciousness argue away you can t win i think we can hci was founded in what in the mid s they ran a one million strong campaign for two years before reaching this goal my understanding is that they reached it by the stratagem of including wide classes of people other than dues paying members i can t speak authoritatively on this maybe somebody else has details then they started running a two million strong campaign for a while but they let it slip into unannounced obscurity when it became clear that they simply were never going to reach that level of membership in just after the commencement of the dodd hearings the starting point of the modern gun control movement the nra had a mere members by barely after the first murmurs of future registration it had about a million today it has over three million members making it the third largest membership organization in the country next to aarp and aaa and its membership is growing faster than at any previous time historical figures from kukla s gun control pp and as you say many of the people in the middle of this debate are bemused by their t bones and mtv that leaves hard core gun owners against hard core gun banners i know a number of ex hci members who have recently become nra members i ve never heard of a single one who has gone the other way yes i think we can and will win this one firearms related mindless mayhem will be related to the availibility of firearms if they become scarce and and expensive a different psychology will take hold i think they would be used far less to settle trivial complaints i think they would be used far less to hammer nails as well but like you i can t give any citation showing that this utilization is currently significant at more than an anecdotal level if you can i m waiting cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re clinton wants national id card aka ussr style internal passport in article apr cc usu edu slp k cc usu edu writes btw which parts should be secure criminal records ie convictions are typically considered public information so should that info be secure remember the population includes parents checking prospective childcare worker like i said i m not sure of the details but it seems to me that you could access medical information without giving out a name or any other information medical info without a name body attached is completely useless for treatment the article i mentioned the the earlier post described a debit card type transaction in which neither the store nor the bank knew who was withdrawing the money thus making it as secure as cash for some purposes but far less secure for others parent s checking a babysitter shouldn t need access to the information stored in the card sure they do the prospective sitter may have a nasty habit of molesting kids three or four months into the job the references may not have known him long enough or may not have picked up on this yet remember criminal conviction info is public so if you re going to argue for an id card other people are going to have a strong argument that it disclose public info things i think anything that you choose to keep unknown should be thus making it useless for negative information could have it so that only doctors can access medical information police criminal records etc etc yeah right how are you going to keep doctors from spilling the beans we already know that you can t keep cops from disclosing info but at least that info is typically supposed to be public anyway like i said it s best if you read the article for yourself the article discusses technology not appropriate policy it also fails to deal with what happens if the folks with the secrets blab andy
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card in article qie rinn b cae cad gatech edu vincent cad gatech edu vincent fox writes in u uicvm uic edu jason kratz u uicvm uic edu writes deleted and as far as fully automatic weapons you can be a lot better armed if you want to hit what you aim at what seems to be happening here is the situation getting totally blown out of proportion in my post i was referring to your regular patrolman in a car cruising around the city vs gang members of course the police have access to the things that you mentioned but do they use tanks and such all of the time of course they don t and that s the point i was trying to make every day when i go out to lunch i always see cops coming in the majority that i see are still carrying revolvers not that there is anything wrong with a revolver but if you re a cop that is up against some gang member with a couple of automatics in his coat i mean semi auto handguns you re going to be at a disadvantage even with training i have been at a shooting range where gang gang members were practicing shooting they were actually practicing taking out their guns as quick as possible and shooting at the target and they weren t doing too badly either the university cops here who are are state cops are armed better than the chicago police it seems most state cops are every city and suburban police officer i ve seen around the twin cities in the last two years has carried a semi auto of some type different brands though i haven t seen any glock s with regard to this discussion we are getting dangerously far from the usual rantings of t p g and close to the realm of r g but i d like to put my two cents worth in while there s nothing wrong with a revolver especially a large frame s w in magnum my favorite there are valid advantages to semi autos i suggest reading massad ayoob s i know some people can t stand him and think he s full of bull but i think that in general his material is very valid and useful book the semi auto pistol in police work or something like that he defines a number of ways that semi auto s are different and that different is good the main advantage is not in increased firepower but in more accurate followup shots when you go to single action mode there is also a certain propriatory nature of each gun that takes some familiarity to learn this may have diminished with time as more criminals become familiar with different models of semi autos but it was cited as stopping or at least slowing down criminals who had grabbed a police officers gun define armed better go shoot a revolver and a semi auto like the colt does one fires faster than the other nope aside from which faster rate of fire is usually not desirable sure it makes the other guys duck for cover but just you trying hitting anything with a thompson in hose mode this is why the military is limiting it s m now to round burst fire simple semi auto would be better but the troops like to be able to rock and roll even if it is wasteful of ammo something often in short supply when the enemy is plentiful a revolver is equally capable as a semi auto in the same caliber a revolver also has the advantage that if it misfires you just pull the trigger again a double action revolver almost all of them can be hand cocked first but will fire merely by pulling the trigger yes but this is best done with a two hand hold with a single hand you either pull the gun far off target to cock or must fire double action the da semi auto has the same advantages plus is always sa after the first shot a misfire in a revolver merely means you must pull the trigger again to rotate to the next round i m not sure if this is meant to be different from your first point in a da semi auto you can pull the trigger again to try dropping the hammer on the same round an advantage you don t have in a revolver where the next trigger pull will always go to the next round discussing this point now this is fine with a dud but what about a hangfire situation granted it s very rare but your round will now go off confined in the cylinder with no place to go slingshotting the slide on a misfire takes very little time a revolver can be carried with the th chamber empty and under the hammer for maximum safety but still can be drawn and fired with an easy motion even one handed actually with modern revolver designs incorporating hammer blocks this is not necessary or usually recommended a revolver would have to fall hard enough and at the right angle to actually break the hammer and driver the firing pin into the round to set it off speedloaders for a revolver allow reloads almost as fast as magazines on semi autos can be faster depending on users the best speedloader users especially those using the spring loaded speed loaders are very fast a problem is that ejecting the spent cases is a two handed job where dropping the expended magazine is one handed this means that while you can be inserting a fresh magazine as soon as the old one clears the gun with a speed loader you have to go through more motions that will always take more time you also don t have the advantage of tactical reloads replacing a partial magazine to bring you back to full capacity the partial magazine can still be used if needed later a misfire in a semi auto will require you to clear a jammed shell first time spent which can be fatal and a vital second or so is often lost as you realize hey it s jammed before starting to do anything about clearing it yes the time to recognize the problem is just as important as the time to clear it really though in either a revolver or semi auto the odds of an actual misfire with factory ammo are awfully small you are more likely to get a jam in a semi auto but even these are exceptionally rare with modern quality guns sigs glocks et al most semi autos must have the slide worked to chamber the first round and cock the hammer some police carry their semi autos with the chamber loaded and hammer cocked but a safety engaged i do not consider this safe however you must trade off safety to get the same speed of employment as a revolver there are some double action semi autos out there but the complexity of operation of many of them requires more training all common semi auto s can be carried with a round in their chamber without any safety problems while i put that out as a statement that i believe i should say that this applies to all of the ones i ve looked at for the da semi s it s no different from the revolver situation the guns all have hammer or firing pin blocks they also have a safety because there s no real advantage carrying one of these cocked and locked you have the same safety and speed of employment as a revolver plus the advantage of sa followup shots i m not familiar with sa semi autos except for the a i admit that i was initially skeptical about carrying this cocked and locked but after examining the design trying to defeat the safeties gun unloaded of course and shooting it a lot i see no inherent safety problems with it especially in a thumbreak holster with the strap under the hammer this design also gets you more speed for an accurate first shot than a revolver some police departments switched to glocks and then started quietly switching many officers back to the old revolvers too many were having accidents partly due to the poor training they received not that glocks require rocket scientists but some cops are baffled by something as complex as the timer on a vcr yeah the infamous glock i still can t figure out how it s worse than a revolver for safety if you don t pull the trigger it doesn t go off i imagine that if all your revolver shooting was done double action then you could pull the glock trigger far enough to fire before you realized it in addition if you had developed that nasty habit of keeping your finger on the trigger when holstering your gun and relying on your thumb on the hammer to remind you to take it off before you blew off your foot then you d have problems when the hammer wasn t there anyone who goes anyone saying that the criminals obviously outgun the police don t know nothing about firearms turn off cops and hunter and pay attention i do not seek here to say semi autos are junk merely that assuming they are better for all jobs is stupid a cop with a revolver on his hip and a shotgun in the rack is more than equipped for anything short of a riot i think this is even okay for a riot as long as it s a small one b gun control is hitting what you aim at if you whip out a wonder nine and fire real fast you may find you don t hit anything good controlled fire from a revolver is more likely to get you a hit i own a mm beretta myself but consider it inferior as a carry weapon to something like the ruger security six revolver if i haven t hit what i m aiming at in the first shots something is quite seriously wrong somewheres while i might like having the backup capacity of those extra shots in certain cases overwhelmingly the of shots fired in criminal encounters is less than i have the poor man s beretta taurus and consider it inferior as a carry weapon to the springfield oops mm vs arguments are relegated to r g you are right though if you don t hit what you aim at then the shooter gun combination has failed i don t ascribe failures in the the fire real fast with a wonder nine scenario you mention to the gun this is a shooter failure whether through lack of discipline or lack of training what do crooks overwhelmingly use in crime why the same nice simple revolvers that the police often use well actually some police prefer the much heftier magnum but anyway mm s are becoming more popular with crooks too though the does still lead the list and like i said around here semi auto s seem the rule for the street cop don t know about the state patrol however they may still carry the highway patrolman obplea don t flame me i prefer semi autos for most things but they introduce unneccessary complications to something as nerve wracking as an abrupt encounter with a lone criminal vincent please don t take any of this as a flame just my whoops looks more like worth and much of it is imho but do check ayoob s book if everything had gone as planned everything would have been perfect batf spokesperson on cnn regarding failed raid attempt in tx
talk.politics.guns	re non lethal alternatives to handguns in article apr yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes what about guns with non lethal bullets like rubber or plastic bullets would those work very well in stopping an attack ask the brits enough people have been killed by rubber bullets that they now use them under only certain controlled circumstances and they are fired from something that looks like a tear gas launcher there are smaller rubber bullets and pellets for shotguns i understand that they are only intended to be discouragers ie for the snapping but not truly dangerous animal in general they do not seem capable of really stopping someone who wants you or past you they are fired at very low muzzle velocity the ball round is intended for a fps load finally as your mother warned you you can put an eye out with that thing dillon pyron the opinions expressed are those of the ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated when i m here when i m home texans vote no on robin hood we need pyron skndiv dseg ti com solutions not gestures padi dm
talk.politics.guns	re high power assault guns high power assault gun why you must be talking about the mm howitzer or did you want to try a incher or one of the german railway guns dillon pyron the opinions expressed are those of the ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated when i m here when i m home texans vote no on robin hood we need pyron skndiv dseg ti com solutions not gestures padi dm
talk.politics.guns	don t knock the glock was re my gun is like my am ex card in article u uicvm uic edu jason kratz u uicvm uic edu writes in article qie rinn b cae cad gatech edu vincent cad gatech edu vincent fox says all your points are very well taken and things that i haven t considered as i am not really familiar enough with handguns some police departments switched to glocks and then started quietly switching many officers back to the old revolvers too many were having accidents partly due to the poor training they received not that glocks require rocket scientists but some cops are baffled by something as complex as the timer on a vcr hell a glock is the last thing that should be switched to the only thing that i know about a glock is the lack of a real safety on it sure there is that little thing in the trigger but that isn t too great of a safety ahem hrumph you have encurred the wrath of glock owners we will beat you with our hammers oooops don t have any seriously there is no difference in the safeties betweena glock and any da revolver intellectually think of the glock as a very high cap revolver ignoring stove pipes misfeeds and all the other bonus exercises that autoloaders give you that is every gun has its safe moment and its dangerous moment if you just learn how to handle it it becomes a lot less dangerous to you dillon pyron the opinions expressed are those of the ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated when i m here when i m home texans vote no on robin hood we need pyron skndiv dseg ti com solutions not gestures padi dm
talk.politics.guns	re newspapers censoring gun advertisements in article na em mcimail com mcimail com peter nesbitt writes recently while looking around in traders sporting goods store a very well stocked firearms store i discovered a printed document that was being distributed by the good folks who work there traders btw is located in san leandro ca the newspapers have now decided to censor gun ads which is why you no longer see the ads that traders san leandro has run for many years these ads were run for the law abiding honest citizens who own firearms for sporting use or self protection they certainly have the right to do so under the second amendment right to bear arms are you sure about this i m currently looking at a copy of last thursday s sf chronicle and there is the typical one column traders ad on page c in the sports section not only that but there is a part in the middle which rather prominently says wanted we pay cash for assault rifles and pistols granted i haven t seen today s paper yet but i d be surprised if there wasn t a traders ad in it it s probably worth it to write to the chronicle and other papers anyway because all their anti gun editorials are disgusting by the way let me put in a plug for traders i have shopped all over the sf bay area and i have never seen another store with lower prices and their selection is amazing lee gaucher my opinions gaucher sam cchem berkeley edu no one else s
talk.politics.guns	re proper gun control what is proper gun control was re my gun is like my american express card iftccu talk politics guns hays ssd intel com kirk hays pm apr some of the pro gun posters in this group own no guns the dread terminator aka the rifleman owned no firearms for several years while posting in this group as an example there are others for what it is worth i own no firearms of any sort as long time readers of this group know i am dedicated to the rkba this is not about toys it is about freedom dave barton dlb hudson wash inmet com
talk.politics.guns	re clinton wants national id card aka ussr style internal passport in article apr csd newshost stanford edu andy sail stanford edu andy freeman writes in article apr cc usu edu slp k cc usu edu writes btw which parts should be secure criminal records ie convictions are typically considered public information so should that info be secure remember the population includes parents checking prospective childcare worker parent s checking a babysitter shouldn t need access to the information stored in the card sure they do the prospective sitter may have a nasty habit of molesting kids three or four months into the job the references may not have known him long enough or may not have picked up on this yet remember criminal conviction info is public so if you re going to argue for an id card other people are going to have a strong argument that it disclose public info as perhaps some insight into how this sort of thing works the local college newspaper had a big crusade to have the u t police release crime stats the school claimed that to do so would violate federal education records privacy laws they swore up and down they weren t interested in student discipline records only for stats so people could make an evaluation of how safe the campus was it was barely a week after crime stats were released before the daily beacon had an editorial calling for student disciplinary stats to be released because they complained certain segments of the campus population were treated administratively rather than turned over to the police and therefore the criminal states weren t accurate what people say they want public today may not be what they say tomorrow david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
talk.politics.guns	re clinton wants national id card aka ussr style internal passport slp k cc usu edu writes i just want to point out that while i am fully in support of privacy it will be possible soon to have a completely secure id card useable in bank transactions medical etc etc there is no such thing as completely secure especially when dealing with high technology it s all a question of cost what cost are you willing to bear to protect your information vs what rewards the bad guys are going to get if they break it the rewards of breaking such a single id system would be high indeed tom swiss tms cs umd edu born to die keep your laws off my brain what s so funny bout peace love and understanding nick lowe this sig contains no animal products and was not tested on animals time is just nature s way of keeping everything from happening at once
talk.politics.guns	re boston gun buy back in article hpfcso fc hp com ron hpfcso fc hp com ron miller writes from urbin interlan interlan com mark urbin rm just a short thought when you ask the question of the authorities or sponsors of buyback programs whether they will check for stolen weapons and they answer no it s total amnesty please note that the given for each firearm in the boston buy back will not be in cash but money orders how much total amnesty can you get if you leave paper trail behind in the latest case in denver they were giving away tickets to a denver nuggets basketball game how traceable is a money order i don t know haven t used one in years money orders operate pretty much like checks with both parties being supposed to sign them i assume you d have to show the buy back people an id and you d then have a money order made out to that id as far as traceable as a practical matter i don t know it would depend on whether they bother to computerize who the recipient s name is on the money order and bother keying that sort of thing in i d say certainly the police and the buyback people would keep a record of who they gave money orders out to is that even an issue if the weapons aren t checked for being stolen there might be some questions asked i suppose if somebody brought in a number of weapons each time over a series of buy back programs david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
talk.politics.guns	re ban all firearms as quoted from c j im c cbnewsc cb att com by rats cbnewsc cb att com morris the cat firearms tend to fall into this low dollar pound area it would not be economic to smuggle them in all production would have to be local there are not all that many people who have both the skill and motivation to assemble worthwhile firearms from scratch high ranking crime figures could obtain imported uzis and such but the average person and average thug would be lucky to get a zip gun and would pay through the nose for it this is not borne out of reality the old soviet union had a very serious domestic handgun and submachinegun trade guns that were of commercial grade because they were produced in honest to goodness machineshops why would all production have to be local don t we have a road system that is the envy of the world if anybody wanted proof of the nonsense of the you can t build guns claim they need look no farther than the philippines amateur gunsmiths there regularly produce everything from automatics to full auto shotguns now if this guy wants to claim that the philippines is either technologically superior to the us or that their transportation is better than ours all i can say is that he s living in a fantasy world you re like a bunch of over educated new york jewish aclu lawyers fighting to eliminate school prayer from the public schools in arkansas holly silva
talk.politics.guns	re ban all firearms in article apr gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes if alcohol were again banned today it would be much more difficult to manage a large scale smuggling operation the cops now rank just a narrow notch below the military in communications intelligence gathering and firepower proof by assertion i love it uh please explain why the smugglers do not also rank a notch below or above the military in terms of communications intelligence gathering e g why fight officials when you can bribe them i ll give you a hundred grand to let that semi past and firepower in a similar vein the amount of marijuana smuggled into this country has greatly decreased this is because its value per pound is very low when compared to cocaine or heroin it s simply not worth the risk it s uneconomical now most reefer is domestic there is less pressure on the domestic producer showy raids notwithstanding and thus it is economical of note though domestic reefer is now very strong so a small volume goes a long way you cannot make alcohol stronger than proof not a good dollar pound deal what s the point here you re arguing that the black market works which it does of course firearms tend to fall into this low dollar pound area this is the wrong way to quantify things the smuggler would be concerned about value cubic foot go to a gun show and price out a crate of good quality handguns it would not be economic to smuggle them in all production would have to be local there are not all that many people what s local who have both the skill and motivation to assemble worthwhile firearms from scratch high ranking crime figures could what is a worthwhile firearm hell anything that works go get yourself a copy of the army s improvised munitions manual see how easy it is to make a functional firearm obtain imported uzis and such but the average person and average thug would be lucky to get a zip gun and would pay through the nose for it if paying for inconspicuous parts at the local k mart is through the nose drew betz gozer idbsu edu brought into your terminal from the free state of idaho when you outlaw rights only outlaws will have rights spook fodder fema nsa clinton gore insurrection nsc semtex neptunium terrorist cia mi mi kgb deuterium
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card in article u uicvm uic edu jason kratz u uicvm uic edu writes all your points are very well taken and things that i haven t considered as i am not really familiar enough with handguns that s not all that kratz doesn t know hell a glock is the last thing that should be switched to the only thing that i know about a glock is the lack of a real safety on it sure there is that little thing in the trigger but that isn t too great of a safety now we know that kratz doesn t understand what a safety is supposed to do he also confuses things he can see with things that exist glocks have multiple safeties even though only one is visible from the outside a safety is supposed to keep the gun from going off unless that s what the user wants with glocks one says i want the gun to go off by pulling the trigger if the safeties it has make that work it has a real safety no matter what kratz thinks andy
talk.politics.guns	re proper gun control what is proper gun control was re my gun is like my american express card in article dlb apr fanny wash inmet com dlb fanny wash inmet com david barton writes for what it is worth i own no firearms of any sort as long time readers of this group know i am dedicated to the rkba a long time reader of t p g i am also a staunch rkba supporter yet i own no firearms this is not about toys it is about freedom amen brother nicholas sylvain sylvain netcom com i am the nra nicholas sylvain sylvain netcom com i am the nra
talk.politics.guns	re proper gun control what is proper gun control was re my gun is like my american express card in article iftccu ca boeing com bressler iftccu ca boeing com rick bressler writes iftccu talk politics guns hays ssd intel com kirk hays pm apr some of the pro gun posters in this group own no guns the dread terminator aka the rifleman owned no firearms for several years while posting in this group as an example there are others good point kirk he s still around too he s responded by email to a couple of my posts and gosh darn he s gotten down right civil this happed about the time he got his first firearm wonder if there is a relationship here turns out that most people at least the ones who are not criminals to start with act responsibility once given the chance i d like to point out that i was in error terminator began posting only six months before he purchased his first firearm according to private email from him i can t produce an archived posting of his earlier than january and he purchased his first firearm in march i guess it only seemed like years back to your regularly scheduled flame fest kirk hays nra life seventh generation the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing edmund burke
talk.politics.guns	re ban all firearms as quoted from apr gnv ifas ufl edu by jrm gnv ifas ufl edu firearms tend to fall into this low dollar pound area it would not be economic to smuggle them in that depends only on the profit of doing so the differences in cost of production will determine local vs smuggle would have to be local there are not all that many people who have both the skill and motivation to assemble worthwhile those of us who have actually made semi autos full autos are easier are getting quite a giggle out of this i d estimate that of the people at my high school couldn t do it i was one of the few who failed shop people who have actually seen me do mechanical work would probably say that is more like it starting with even of the population you can be sure that enough people will be motivated firearms from scratch high ranking crime figures could obtain imported uzis and such but the average person and average thug would be lucky to get a zip gun and would pay through the nose for it how much is through the nose after all we know quite a bit about how much a gun is worth to a criminal so if that is dwarfed by the price demanded by the bad part of that the relevant economic analysis has been made the profit of gun crime is high enough that the price required to push criminals out of the market is high enough that everyone will be motivated that analysis ignored some improvements in the criminal gun market that could make them even cheaper they re not efficiently used now but a loaner set up would drive the value still higher without affecting criminal use andy
talk.politics.guns	hr a gun law i can live with d congress st session h r to establish the right to obtain firearms for security and to use firearms in defense of self family or home and to provide for the enforcement of such right in the house of representatives march mr bartlett introduced the following bill which was referred to the committee on the judiciary a bill to establish the right to obtain firearms for security and to use firearms in defense of self family or home and to provide for the enforcement of such right be it enacted by the senate and house of representa tives of the united states of america in congress assembled section short title this act may be cited as the citizens self defense act of sec right to obtain firearms for security and to use firearms in defense of self family or home enforcement a establishment of right a person not pro hibited by federal law from receiving a firearm shall have the right to obtain firearms for security and to use fire arms in defense of self family or home b firearm defined as used in subsection a the term firearm means a shotgun as defined in section a of title united states code rifle as defined in section a of such title or handgun as defined in section of public law c enforcement of right in general a person whose right under subsection a is violated in any manner may bring an action in any united states district court against the united states any state or any person for damages injunctive relief and such other relief as the court deems appropriate authority to award a reasonable at torney s fee in an action brought under para graph the court in its discretion may allow the prevailing party other than a state a reasonable attorney s fee as part of the costs d statute of limitations an action may not be brought under subsection c after the year period that begins with the date the violation described therein is discovered end of hr well this sounds good to me the key is section c which will effectively open up the federal court system to all the folks who can t afford to adopt an attorney with whom to fight city hall all of you who ve been saying hey isn t that illegal could just go hire your own attorneys on a pay if you win contingency fee basis and sue the bums what you can do now write your representative and ask them to co sponsor hr write representative roscoe bartlett the sponsor representative roscoe bartlett cannon house office building washington d c to tell him who your own representative is and that you ve asked them to join him as a co sponsor of hr contact gun owners of america gun owners of america forbes place springfield virginia which has committed to lobby on behalf of hr for those of us with a realjob tm find out how to reach representative bartlett s campaign fund i m working on it and toss in a few bucks you can bet your bippy that he s going to be one of the hci targets in the next election which isn t that far away tell your family friends gun club etc enjoy
talk.politics.guns	re newspapers censoring gun advertisements newspaper ad censorship the newspapers have now decided to censor gun ads which is why you no longer see the ads that traders san leandro has run for many years if you are tired of newspapers who run sex and liquor ads galor yet refuse to run legitimate gun ads please send a letter to the editors indicating your displeasure over their censorship doctrine following is a list of bay area newspapers who censor gun ads perhaps you d like to send them your thoughts on this issue contra costa times san mateo times san francisco chronicle pob pob mission st walnut creek ca san mateo ca san francisco ca san fran independent san fran examiner san jose mercury news evans ave th st ridder park dr san fran ca san fran ca san jose ca i have the april issue of the sf chronicle in my lap page e in the sporting green section has a trader s advert the copy is a bit screwed up it says that the prices offered expire but the ad is there the sf examiner and chronicle run the same set of adverts because they have a joint printing biz agreement and differ only in editorial content i ve seen gun ads recently in the merc which is anti gun editorially albeit not from traders but from its competitors i don t know about the other papers does traders claim that things are changing when why tv journalists lie because it s easier than telling the truth and no one much cares either way let me know if you write to any of these bozos before you do make sure that the bozos are actually doing what you re accusing them of andy
talk.politics.guns	re guns in backcountry no thanks in article qkcok s i usenet ins cwru edu ci cleveland freenet edu john k gever writes do you rambos who worry so much about rape and murder in the wilderness also carry your guns all the time at home too you should since you re in a hell of a lot more danger there than in the backcountry when does carrying a tool classify someone as a rambo so all the pioneers that came west were rambo s adrienne does anybody reading this group have an actual honest to god experience with violent crime in the backcountry to tell about i can sort of understand the people who want to protect themselves from bears and such although there are what maybe a dozen or two bear attacks on people in north america each year but to worry about being raped by some buck toothed bubba in overalls is just irrational i think we d all be a lot safer if all the videocassettes of deliverance were gathered up and burned would your tune change if you were one of the dozen or two bear attacks believe me when you need a firearm you need a firearm public health experts will tell you that you are far more likely have your gun stolen use it yourself on a family member or have it used on you than you are to use it on an actual criminal please cite your references i ll let others please note followup cite valid references to show you that this is an untruth the rambo warriors we ve heard from here undoubtedly consider themselves exempt from this statistical reality they re much too smart and responsible living in a city where there s a drive by shooting every couple of days and working in a medical center where a day doesn t go by without a shooting victim coming into the er i m just a bit skeptical about the value of gun ownership i go to the backcountry to get away from this environment and i don t want to find other people there who insist on bringing the urban environment along with them boom boxes computers or guns well you might as well go naked forget the matches backpack sleeping bag and all the rest that s is a modern convenience a firearm is just a tool as some people won t carry gaiters some people do firearms should be in the same category it should be a personal choice and your factoid about shooting victims in the er count how many come in due to automobile accidents and automobile crimes maybe we should outlaw cars please post flaming responses to rec guns rabid j gever b ham ala marciano pitargue cisco com
talk.politics.guns	re hr a gun law i can live with in article apr dg rtp dg com meyers leonardo rtp dg com bill meyers writes a establishment of right a person not pro hibited by federal law from receiving a firearm shall have the right to obtain firearms for security and to use fire arms in defense of self family or home so you have the right unless the federal government says you don t i don t think i like this very much this would be much better if it said everyone except those who have been striped of this right by due process of law or some such thing also i don t care for the federal government stepping on states rights regardless of which state right is being stepped on if the constitution doesn t give the feds some power then they have to just shut up about it the only way the feds should have anything to say is if the constitution prohibits localities from infringing on the rkba in which case this bill should just reiterate that the rkba is guaranteed by the constitution and that the feds will take appropriate action if it is infringed chris bartz chrisb natinst com
talk.politics.guns	re with friends like these l neil smith look if you can figure out a reliable means of keeping guns away from bad people while not interfering with good people i think we d all be for it the problem is the methods we re using now don t do the trick don t manufacture them don t sell them don t import them some guns will get through but far fewer and far less people will die because of them hunting weapons could be allowed of course as long as they are big and bulky and require reloading after a few shots how many times can you shoot at the same animal anyways one assumes they are moving a better solution if the bad people can t be trusted with guns then lock them or knock them off stop punishing good people
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express car in article csd newshost stanford edu andy sail stanford edu andy freeman writes in article u uicvm uic edu jason kratz u uicvm uic edu writes all your points are very well taken and things that i haven t considered as i am not really familiar enough with handguns that s not all that kratz doesn t know hell a glock is the last thing that should be switched to the only thing that i know about a glock is the lack of a real safety on it sure there is that little thing in the trigger but that isn t too great of a safety now we know that kratz doesn t understand what a safety is supposed to do he also confuses things he can see with things that exist glocks have multiple safeties even though only one is visible from the outside a safety is supposed to keep the gun from going off unless that s what the user wants with glocks one says i want the gun to go off by pulling the trigger if the safeties it has make that work it has a real safety no matter what kratz thinks andy i agree very much i have read almost every article written about the glock and imo it is probably the safest auto loader made it has the best safty of all jeff cooper s first rule keep your finger off the trigger until you want to shoot if everyone just observed this there would be fewer accidents david n bixler auburn university standard disclaimers apply
talk.politics.guns	re non lethal alternatives to handguns in article apr mksol dseg ti com pyron skndiv dseg ti com writes ask the brits enough people have been killed by rubber bullets that they now use them under only certain controlled circumstances and they are fired from something that looks like a tear gas launcher there are smaller rubber bullets and pellets for shotguns i understand that they are only intended to be discouragers ie for the snapping but not truly dangerous animal in general they do not seem capable of really stopping someone who wants you or past you they are fired at very low muzzle velocity the ball round is intended for a fps load finally as your mother warned you you can put an eye out with that thing oh ok just wondering i am not a real expert on weapons i was just wondering if they would do the job doug holland
talk.politics.guns	constitutionality of u s c o you know i was reading u s c and something just did not make sence and i was wondering if someone could help me out say u s c except as provided in paragraph it shall be unlawful for any person to transfer or possess a machinegun well i got to looking in my law dictionary and i found that a person might also be an artificial entity that is created by government and has no rights under the federal constitution so what i don t understand is how a statute like can be enforced on an individual so someone tell me how my government can tell me what i can or cannot possess just passing a law does not make it law everyone knows that laws are constitional until it goes to court so has it ever gone to court not just your run of the mill ok i had it i am guilty put me in jail has anyone ever claimed that they had a right to possess and was told by the supreme court that they didn t have that right brian sheets truck what truck support engineer o o atlas telecom inc raiders of the lost ark brians atlastele com u
talk.politics.guns	cop kills teenager ok here s something for all of those people who think cops are always more responsible then the rest of the population i found this article in the rocky mountain collegian colorado state university s newspaper suspended police officer arrested in revenge triple homicide providence r i ap a police officer afraid he would be fired for allegedly assaulting a teen ager walked into an auto body shop wher the youth worked said you re going to die and fatally shot him and two others police said a fourth youth was wounded a fifth escaped injury by hiding under a car the wounded youth ran about two blocks to a house after the shooting at about midnight tuesday and called police he was hospitalized in satisfactory condition wednesday suspended police officer robert sabetta of cranston was arrested at gunpoint over three hours after the shooting at wilson s auto enterprises in foster a rural town of about people in northwest rhode island well this just goes to show that cops are capable of snapping just like everyone else now who was it who said only cops should have guns doug holland
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card in u uicvm uic edu jason kratz u uicvm uic edu writes what seems to be happening here is the situation getting totally blown out of proportion in my post i was referring to your regular patrolman in a car cruising around the city vs gang members of course the police have access to the things that you mentioned but do they use tanks and such all of the time of course they don t and that s the point i was trying to make every day when i go out to lunch i always see cops coming in the majority that i see are still carrying revolvers so look in the trunk some time heck look at the dash that funny thing attached with a quick release is a gun the ones in the trunk are better i don t have numbers for chicago but philadelphia police cars carried multiple automatic weapons and thousands of rounds as standard issue in the s not that there is anything wrong with a revolver but if you re a cop that is up against some gang member with a couple of automatics in his coat i mean semi auto handguns you re going to be at a disadvantage even with training what is the nature of this disadvantage if the cop can shoot rounds will do the job against a single opponent especially since the cop has guaranteed backup if the gang member can shoot the extra rounds don t help the only time this difference can matter is if neither can shoot and cops aren t supposed to be throwing lead around like that btw most cops carry multiple guns you re not supposed to know about the second third and so on i have been at a shooting range where gang members were practicing shooting how do we know that they were gang members and not undercover cops or even law abiding menacing minorities btw why the sneer quotes they were actually practicing taking out their guns as quick as possible and shooting at the target and they weren t doing too badly either then the extra rounds won t make any difference so why is it an issue andy
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card in article apr csd newshost stanford edu andy sail stanford edu andy freeman writes in article u uicvm uic edu jason kratz u uicvm uic edu writes all your points are very well taken and things that i haven t considered as i am not really familiar enough with handguns that s not all that kratz doesn t know k guys guys and gals let s lay off jason here though he stepped in it he has been very good so far about admitting he doesn t know what he s talking about and even more stunning is that he seems anmar mirza chief of tranquility my opinions notiu s ciansakgbfbi emt d base lawrence co in legalize explosives assasinatedea n isy tech somewhere out on the politicians prefer naziplutonium networks tech mirza ranch c mon over unarmed peasants presidentfema
talk.politics.guns	re the pill for deer no hunting in article qk jm sh transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes i know a number of ex hci members who have recently become nra members i ve never heard of a single one who has gone the other way i ve been a member of the nra for several years and recently joined hci i wanted to see what they were up to and paid the minimum to get a membership i also sent the nra another would the founding fathers have approved of encryption so strong that the government could not break it
talk.politics.guns	handgun restrictions i would like to know what restrictions there are on purchasing handguns ie waiting periods background check etc in the states of nevada and oregon thanks bill bill anderson bbs billand tsoft net
talk.politics.guns	re don t knock the glock was re my gun is like my am ex card in article apr mksol dseg ti com pyron skndiv dseg ti com dillon pyron says some police departments switched to glocks and then started quietly switching many officers back to the old revolvers too many were having accidents partly due to the poor training they received not that glocks require rocket scientists but some cops are baffled by something as complex as the timer on a vcr hell a glock is the last thing that should be switched to the only thing that i know about a glock is the lack of a real safety on it sure there is that little thing in the trigger but that isn t too great of a safety ahem hrumph you have encurred the wrath of glock owners we will beat you with our hammers oooops don t have any seriously there is no difference in the safeties betweena glock and any da revolver intellectually think of the glock as a very high cap revolver ignoring stove pipes misfeeds and all the other bonus exercises that autoloaders give you that is every gun has its safe moment and its dangerous moment if you just learn how to handle it it becomes a lot less dangerous to you dillon pyron the opinions expressed are those of the ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated when i m here when i m home texans vote no on robin hood we need pyron skndiv dseg ti com solutions not gestures padi dm all very true i m going on what i have read and heard from friends basically the glock is great but i have heard read that it is a lot harder to learn proper handling because of the type of safety that it has i was looking at a glock s w and the s w a couple of weeks ago and the safties on the guns were very different the saftey on the seemed a lot more safe for lack of a better word than the one on the glock of course this could also be a bad thing if you were to pull the gun on somebody you would spend more time fiddling around turning the safety off personally i like the glocks because they are very light and i think they look really cool guess that s why they use them in so many movies but i wouldn t get one as my first semi auto because of the safety i would prefer more training with a traditional semi auto ala colt but of course that s just my opinion jason
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card i hate long postings but this turned out to be rather lengthy overall crime rate it fell just like that acquiring weapons in norway you can buy almost all kinds of weapons in norway but you must have a permit and a good reason to get the permit if i would like to have a handgun i would have to get an gun licence from the police and to be a member of a gun club the police would check my criminal records for any serious crimes and or records of serious mental diseases now if a got my licence i would have to be an active member of the gun club for months before i could collect my gun it s a little like getting a drivers licence isn t it you have to prove that you can drive before you are allowed to use of guns in crimes in norway some crimes are commited with guns that have been in the owners arms for a long time but these are rather the exeption most criminals accuire guns to use them in crimes and mostly short time befor the crime use of knives it is allowed to cary knifes in public but not in your belt or open you americans think it s ok to have a gun but not to carry it open in public rigth scandinavians are aggressive we northeners are not as hot livered as southeners but when we decide to take action we do ask any historian or millitary with an knowledge of europe or ask any german who served in norway in ww individual vs masses yes the individual is more important than the masses but only to some extent your criminal laws are to protect the individuals who makes the masses what happens when the rigths of some individuals affects the rights of all the others the issue i believe the issue is guns and gun legislation we shouldn t mix weapons and items that can serve as one if i lived in amerika i would probably have a gun to defend myselfe in home but should it have to be like that do you think it s wise to sell guns like candy some states do if you believe it s smart neccacery to have drivers licence why do you think it should be free to buy guns disclaim her i m not a pacifist or anti gun i would defend my home loved ones and country but i don t view guns as neccities or toys i have done army service and have used a variaty of weapons but wouldn t want to have one for self defence or because they feel good this is not a signature it s marly a computergenerated text to waste bandwith and to bring down the evil internet thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no
talk.politics.guns	re that silly outdated bill was re koresh and miranda scottj magic dml georgetown edu john l scott writes the issue has never been whether tanks were used in detroit in it has been whether they fired their main guns never this is incorrect either you don t read very well or resort to falsehoods in an attempt to make a point at the risk of boring and belaboring the point my claim was the chain was regarding the tanks last used in detroit in the text follows you did not merely claim that tanks were used you claimed that they fired their main guns to suppress sniper fire and that they were quite effective at this indeed when coffman claimed they were only used as apcs i did say i had been told they did fire their main guns you continue to back away from this claim and defend something else that nobody is disputing well the poster who i responded to did dispute the use of tanks post rude of you to call gary coffman a nobody well it s not the main gun gee that s only the entire point are you now going to admit that you were wrong that was the entire point to you what exactly did i claim i ve heard eye witness descriptions of tanks using their main guns to respond to sniper fire quite effectively i wasn t wrong i ve heard those descriptions if you re paying attention i ve mentioned that i saw the tanks with my own eyes but the main gun firing was an account i heard that helps people judge whether or not to kick in the to use your words bullshit filters stating that i claimed this is a falsehood what was it i claimed as fact here s the entire post we haven t used tanks against the black ghettos since detroit correction i know they used tanks in detroit i saw em it was well covered in the news at that time gordon lightfoot mentions it in his song black day in july since you don t dispute that and claim that nobody else does that means i was right i will never read of tanks firing their main guns in detroit in the riots there is simply no way that such an event could have taken place without it being common knowledge even years later the american military firing shells from tanks in american cities on blacks would have been big news so one would suppose some folks think in happened in awesley goes on you can also read of the troops using grenade launchers to fire fragmentary grenades i doubt that as well to fire concussion grenades perhaps to fire tear gas certainly but you would be perfectly willing to let us believe they fired frags wouldn t you since it makes your other claim seem more plausible john again strawman techniques do you feel you re losing it so you have to stretch what i said and knock that down what i read said nothing about what they fired and so i put nothing in there if you need some help let me know and i l take your side of this for a while you re not scoring here you re boring here if tanks had fired their main guns in detroit people would have been screaming about it for the past two and half decades i would know about it glad to know you re such an expert nice to hear some an authority i especially appreciate your basis of knowledge if it had happened you would have know it since you are such an authority you probably know that people did scream about an alleged massive cover up in the number of people killed in the detroit riot some claimed dead others said the offical number is but the concise columbia encyclopedia says it was several i ve also heard some things about that but i won t dare repeat them you d assert that i claimed they were truth unless you also claim that the national guard managed to cover it up taking the tour after the riots it was pretty easy to tell the difference between army and guard troops or so i recall from years ago and i seem to recall it was the army running the tanks so it would have been an army cover up another part of my memories was that while most damaged building were burnt some were in rubble based on what i remember i was and am inclined to believe an old sarge or two if your mind is open enough to believe that well good for you i prefer to live in reality and here in reality i find it hard to believe that those tanks even had any shells much less fired them given the level in destruction in detroit i m quite willing to believe that they did fire their guns now then we ve bored the shit out of anyone whose bothered to read this far and all you ve managed to say is that you don t believe the account i cited john l scott wes
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card in article apr csd newshost stanford edu andy sail stanford edu andy freeman says in article u uicvm uic edu jason kratz u uicvm uic edu all your points are very well taken and things that i haven t considered as i am not really familiar enough with handguns that s not all that kratz doesn t know hell a glock is the last thing that should be switched to the only thing that i know about a glock is the lack of a real safety on it sure there is that little thing in the trigger but that isn t too great of a safety now we know that kratz doesn t understand what a safety is supposed to do he also confuses things he can see with things that exist glocks have multiple safeties even though only one is visible from the outside excuse me but i do know what i safety is supposed to do it s basic purpose not to let the gun fire until you re ready christ i ve known that since i had my first crosman air gun you don t know me so don t make assumptions about what i know and don t know i do know that the glock has multiple safties from reports looking at them at a gun shop and friends who own one a safety is supposed to keep the gun from going off unless that s what the user wants with glocks one says i want the gun to go off by pulling the trigger if the safeties it has make that work it has a real safety no matter what kratz thinks andy from the things i have read heard glocks are always knocked because of the trigger safety they are supposedly harder to learn to use properly every article that i have read can t be wrong about the damn thing and don t ask me to quote my sources because i don t keep a ton of gun magazines and or rec guns articles laying around boy you can t make a simple statement on here without someone getting right on your ass no wonder why there are so many problems in the world everyone takes everything just a little too seriously by the way i m not going to reply to any of this stuff anymore as someone made the good point that this discussion is getting too close to r g and yes i know that i had something to do with that jason
talk.politics.guns	re newspapers censoring gun advertisements andy freeman andy sail stanford edu wrote newspaper ad censorship san fran independent san fran examiner san jose mercury news evans ave th st ridder park dr san fran ca san fran ca san jose ca hmmm the sj merc carries targemasters west national shooting club reeds sportshop sportsmens supply and big ads they all sell guns no they don t have any adds like in shotgun news if they won t at least run the current adds i swear i ll cancel my subscription and end to cash to the crpa rob p
talk.politics.guns	re don t knock the glock was re my gun is like my am ex card in article u uicvm uic edu jason kratz u uicvm uic edu writes all very true i m going on what i have read and heard from friends basically the glock is great but i have heard read that it is a lot harder to learn proper handling because of the type of safety that it has i was looking at a glock s w and the s w a couple of weeks ago and the safties on the guns were very different the saftey on the seemed a lot more safe for lack of a better word than the one on the glock of course this could also be a bad thing if you were to pull the gun on somebody you would spend more time fiddling around turning the safety off personally i like the glocks because they are very light and i think they look really cool guess that s why they use them in so many movies but i wouldn t get one as my first semi auto because of the safety i would prefer more training with a traditional semi auto ala colt but of course that s just my opinion jason at the risk of starting the my gun is better than yours flame war i must disagree there is no secret in handling a glock in fact it is often chosen besides its other merits because it shoots like a revolver does basically it can limit the training time read budget due to the fact there are no external safties other than the trigger hence less training time required smith wesson among other types are chosen due to the fact taht they do have the external safties hammer drop as well as mag drop which if properly used have saved many lives when mr bad snatched the gun from the officer and tried to shoot said officer the gun was on safe and would not fire this point had been made in many articles in various gun magazines if fact one author can t remember who staged a little test where he had a revolver and a s w on safe laying on a table and asked people with little firearms experience to on his signal grab the gun and shoot a target he timed the people using each gun the revolver times were pretty close but some of the times with the s w were in minutes or the person just gave up because they could not figure out the saftey you don t often see colt autos issued due to the light trigger which can be accidentally fired in a stress situation opening the issuing city county etc to lawsuits bad press etc of course any problem can be overcome with enough training but such training is not always available to budget crunched departments i know if i were a cop i would want something like a s w just for the off chance of the gun getting taken away the safety doesn t guarantee that mr bad won t figure it out and shoot me but it could buy enough time to draw a second gun and shoot mr bad before it s too late don t think i am too biassed here just because i have had glocks in my possession at one time because i have had a as well in fact it was my first handgun remember the ultimate safety is you the operator and no safety is going to stop an negligent discharge note i don t say accidental if you break the rules of gun handling as per the part of being light weight and looking cool i agree i wouldn t rule it out as a first purchase just my tax steve syck syck miller cs uwm edu
talk.politics.guns	re insane gun toting wackos unite anyone who worries about his own gun should not have one if you carry any pistol with a empty chamber and safety the chances of it going off are about zero unless you sit it on top of a lite stove for a couple of minutes or put it in a fire what doesn t kill us makes us stronger spoken by many a t hikers kilo delta four zulu papa uniform kd zpu
talk.politics.guns	re proper gun control what is proper gun control in article c jatz g cbnewsc cb att com rats cbnewsc cb att com morris the cat writes let s prohibit arms carrying by police when off duty or if they make the assertion that well i need to maintain my gun let s make it regulation that they can carry an unloaded firearm home that it s only fair that they be just as helpless as poor schmuck coming home from his computer operator job nra director ex san jose cop leroy pyle states in the latest swat magazine that anti cops better watch out for this schism between rkba folks and the police he asks the rhetorical question of what if what s left of the gun lobby starts demanding the disarmament of the police well i guess anti gun cops who think only they should be armed along with the wealthy and politically connected should be made to realize that screwing can cut in ways they have yet to imagine we all know this will never happen because the police are under the wings of government they will always be considered more important than citizens government pens pencils and paper are considered more important than citizens i think we have a problem with our government
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card in article cmm thomasp surt ifi uio no thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no writes overall crime rate it fell just like that two questions when was this and do you have the relevant numbers please note this is not in any way an indication i don t believe you or that you re not correct but when the drop occured is relevant acquiring weapons in norway you can buy almost all kinds of weapons in norway but you must have a permit and a good reason to get the permit if i would like to have a handgun i would have to get an gun licence from the police and to be a member of a gun club the primary objection beyond ones based on the ideal of rkba that it is simply not something the government should do is that it makes guns a play thing and tool of the rich and connected it discriminates against the poor is self defense considered appropriate and if so under what conditions are you allowed for instance to get a gun for protection if you re going to be carrying a very large sum of money on a regular basis or have been threatened the police would check my criminal records for any serious crimes and or records of serious mental diseases this has been suggested in the u s and generally supported among gun owners what many object to is that many if not most proposals contain a sort of gotcha clause which allows an arbitrary denial even if you qualify in every way now if a got my licence i would have to be an active member of the gun club for months before i could collect my gun it s a little like getting a drivers licence isn t it you have to prove that you can drive before you are allowed to at this point it should be pointed out that in general a driver s licence in the u s is for the most part nothing like its european counterpart i understand getting one is far more difficult there than here in the u s it s a joke but my usual objection is that you re discussing two different things for instance in the u s a driver s license is a permit to operate a motor vehicle on a public road it is not necessary to own one or to operate it on private property that is the ability to require driving permits is generally considered to arise from the government s legitimate power to enact reasonable regulations for behavior on public lands a permit to own an automobile for instance which is far closer an analogy would be a much harder thing to get past legally since it wouldn t be based on making regulations on public property but in restricting activity on private property use of guns in crimes in norway some crimes are commited with guns that have been in the owners arms for a long time but these are rather the exeption most criminals accuire guns to use them in crimes and mostly short time befor the crime use of knives it is allowed to cary knifes in public but not in your belt or open you americans think it s ok to have a gun but not to carry it open in public rigth this varies widely one thing i think europeans have a difficult time with is that the u s has fifty unique jurisdictions where the laws from one state to another can be as radically different as from one country in europe to another some places allow open carry of both guns and knives some allow concealed some prohibit both or allow one or the other and it can be either a state or local restriciton individual vs masses yes the individual is more important than the masses but only to some extent your criminal laws are to protect the individuals who makes the masses what happens when the rigths of some individuals affects the rights of all the others the question must be asked is the right of this individual affecting the rights of this other individual what we usually get is that the rights of this group meaning some individuals within this group here defined as people who own guns are adversely affecting the rights of some other group if for instance bob were using his gun to attack steve you d have a point but essentially what we re discussing is that becuase some person who qualifies as a member of the group people who own guns then some third person perhaps in another time zone is told that their being a member of that group is taking away somebody else s rights it s like trying to punish all newspapers for the libel commited by one the issue i believe the issue is guns and gun legislation the issue is crime violence and murder the question is to what extent guns and gun legislation impact those we shouldn t mix weapons and items that can serve as one if i lived in amerika i would probably have a gun to defend myselfe in home but should it have to be like that of course not it would be nice if we didn t have to fear that other people might get it into their twisted little minds to hurt us but currently we don t have that option nor do i expect we will do you think it s wise to sell guns like candy some states do no state does in any case there s a limit to which the state may enforce it s wisdom on me freedom in general is an unwise concept if you pre emptively restrict everything which might be unwise then freedom becomes a meaningless concept if you believe it s smart neccacery to have drivers licence why do you think it should be free to buy guns i ll raise my hand against driver s licenses as currently implemented they re a waste of time and little more than revanue generation for the state and ignored by a startling number of drivers it does not guarantee a level of skill any higher than is necessary to get your car on the road and get yourself or somebody else killed or a knowledge of traffic laws beyond what any ten year old will have picked up riding around in his parents car but as i mentioned they re two different things david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
talk.politics.guns	re hr a gun law i can live with in article apr dg rtp dg com meyers leonardo rtp dg com bill meyers writes a bill to establish the right to obtain firearms for security and to use firearms in defense of self family or home and to provide for the enforcement of such right maybe i m too religious but when i see a bill to establish a right i wince keep in mind what the law giveth the law can taketh away cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re constitutionality of u s c o in article apr atlastele com brians atlastele com brian sheets writes you know i was reading u s c and something just did not make sence and i was wondering if someone could help me out say u s c except as provided in paragraph it shall be unlawful for any person to transfer or possess a machinegun well i got to looking in my law dictionary and i found that a person might also be an artificial entity that is created by government and has no rights under the federal constitution so what i don t understand is how a statute like can be enforced on an individual so someone tell me how my government can tell me what i can or cannot possess just passing a law does not make it law sorry but i really can t figure out what you re trying to say above everyone knows that laws are constitional until it goes to court not exactly an unconstitutional act is not law it confers no rights it imposes no duties affords no protection it creates no office it is in legal contemplation as inoperative as though it had never been passed norton vs shelby county us p the general rule is that an unconstitutional statute though having the form and name of law is in reality no law but is wholly void and ineffective for any purpose since unconstitutionality dates from the time of it s enactment and not merely from the date of the decision so branding it no on is bound to obey an uncontitutional law and no courts are bound to enforce it am jur d sec late d sec so has it ever gone to court not just your run of the mill ok i had it i am guilty put me in jail has anyone ever claimed that they had a right to possess and was told by the supreme court that they didn t have that right automatic weapons no the supreme court has never heard such a case cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	aclu policies aclu official policies policy for example opposes rating systems for motion pictures industry sponsored ratings systems create the potential for constraining the creative process and thus contracting the marketplace of ideas despite the stated goal of providing guidance to parents experience has shown that ratings inevitably have serious chilling effects on freedom of expression in regards to the pledge of allegiance the aclu states in its policy the insertion of the words under god into the pledge of allegiance is a violation of the constitutional principle of separation of church and state policy states that military conscription under any circumstances is a violation of civil liberties and constitutional guarantees the aclu objects to the draft even during wartime because of the anti democratic power it gives government to wage war without support of the people policy states the aclu calls for a broad based inquiry into war crimes within the widest possible definition of war crimes against humanity and crimes against the peace focusing upon the actions of the united states military and other combatants against the people of south vietnam laos cambodia and north vietnam policy states the aclu recognizes that us government reliance upon nuclear weaponry as a dominant element of foreign and domestic policy while propounded as a defense of democracy is in fact a great threat to civil liberties four decades of adherence to this policy has fundamentally altered the nature of our constitutional democratic process and poses a paramount threat to our civil liberties policy objects to roadblocks where drivers are stopped for sobriety tests because they violate fourth amendment principles policy states the following on criminal sentencing the most appropriate correctional approach is reintegrating the offender into the community and the goals of reintegration are furthered much more readily by working with the offender within the community than by incarceration probation should be authorized by the legislature in every case exceptions to the principle are not favored and any exceptions if made should be limited to the most serious of offenses such as murder or treason bill vojak vojak icebucket stortek com nra ila colorado firearms coalition the cbs nightly propaganda with dan rather rather not the cbs nightly propaganda with dan rather rather biased
talk.politics.guns	upi news release upi washington dc update desk for the past several months the clinton administration has been stymied by mixed signals coming from the economy while most leading indicators has shown an apparent improvement in the economy there has been no corresponding improvement in the area of jobs creation the unemployment figures seem stalled at the mark last month in an effort to understand this problem president clinton appointed a blue ribbon panel to try to resolve the apparent conflicting economic signals this panel was chaired by vice president gore today the panel released their results providing a shocking conclusion it s the guns vice president gore said apparently nra members and other gun nuts are purchasing firearms at in record numbers pulling the economy out of the recession their buying them five times faster than ever before and stockpiling left and right the vice president said however since many domestic firearm and ammunition manufacturers have been experiencing hard times during the past few years including several declarations of bankruptcy by many leading american gun makers they have not rushed to increase hiring to meet the new demand we want to see if this run will continue before hiring more people said the president of colt industries as long as clinton is in office we suspect it will he added in response to this new information president clinton announced a new gun control measure to be introduced into congress this session it s called the ban one a month gun control bill under the terms of this law every make and model of all firearms will be written on individual index cards the cards will all be put in a big hat and the president will draw one card every month sixty days later that gun will be banned from any further manufacture importation or sale in this country except to the politically connected and to members of the national police force the president said this law will benefit america two ways when the gun of the month is announced every thirty days the gun nuts will run out and buy thousands of them boosting the economy even more in addition over the long run we will get all of these icky evil guns off of the street he also announce the appointment of sarah brady to oversee this program citing her honesty and unbiased view on the subject of gun control senators metzenbaum deconcini feinstein and boxer have proposed an amendment to the bill which would add additional index cards containing caliber designations for all know ammunitions their stockpiling stockpiling stockpiling screamed metzenbaum during a press conference at the national headquarters of handgun control inc senators simon metzenbaum and moyenhan also introduced an amendment that would make all guns illegal to possess once the last card has been drawn from the hat senator simon was quoted as saying first we ll fuck em then we ll kick em out of bed in the morning during a press conference he held in the second floor mens restroom of the senate building he of course was referring to the fact that he would allow the people to purchase the guns to help the economy but would require the batf to seize all of the guns in america sometime in the year after all of the cards have been drawn the head of the batf responded by saying we will have to see if this thing in waco is over by then we may be too busy to seize all those guns us house representatives pat schroeder and david skaggs of colorado declared this proposed law as being reasonable gun control which won t affect anybodys constitutional right to own sporting guns end article for the humor impaired bill vojak vojak icebucket stortek com nra ila colorado firearms coalition the cbs nightly propaganda with dan rather rather not the cbs nightly propaganda with dan rather rather biased
talk.politics.guns	re gritz jbs liberty lobby larouche christic insitute libertarian in article qanj d usenet ins cwru edu cj cleveland freenet edu john w redelfs writes how many are aware that the gun control act of is a verbatim translation of a nazi gun control law passed shortly before the holocaust for those of you who think i m being paranoid in asking these questions pray that you are right unchecked democracies usually end in dictatorship remember germany was a democracy when hitler rose to power can we be absolutely certain nothing like that could happen today i can t speak for the organizations you cited but everywhere you look in our society and government one can see the relentless movement toward one world government the fact that the media demeans such charished values as patriotism nationalism and protectionism are some of the clues the fact that we are sapping the economic strength of americans to prop up a former and possibly future enemy is just another the fact the words like community of nations global village and international business are in vogue are others international corporations are destroying our identy and economy and the propaganda they are playing through the media and government is over powering our ability to resist our porous border both people and trade are an indiciation that we have already lost a great deal of sovergnty the bottome line is that the single most evil aspect of one world government is that you have nowhere to run to and history has proven that would be a disaster beware the liberal and the conservative and the moderate think for yourself
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card in article cmm thomasp surt ifi uio no thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no writes if i would like to have a handgun i would have to get an gun licence from the police and to be a member of a gun club the police would check my criminal records for any serious crimes and or records of serious mental diseases now if a got my licence i would have to be an active member of the gun club for months before i could collect my gun so like what do you do during those six months to be active my town has a similar requirement and it s rather stupid before you can buy a handgun you have to be an active member of a gun club well how active can you be without a gun chief most gun owners feel a check of criminal records for crimes and mental disorders would be a very good thing if it couldn t be abused by the government but every time this is proposed there is always some trapdoor by which the government can deny your purchase even if you are perfectly qualified to own a gun and we oppose this it s a little like getting a drivers licence isn t it you have to prove that you can drive before you are allowed to since the fatal accident rate for licensed automobile drivers in the us is around times the fatal accident rate of largely unlicensed gun owners i d think twice before using this analogy besides the problem is criminal use of guns not accidents there are about criminal uses of guns in the us every year but only accidents i don t think it s necessary to spend a lot of energy making sure a criminal can shoot a gun before he gets one just like the check most gun owners feel positively about requiring safety courses if they couldn t be abused by the government but they already have one state doesn t hold the courses another doesn t fund them a third holds them only once a year with limited attendence to those with political connections is this fair most criminals accuire guns to use them in crimes and mostly short time befor the crime and how many of them acquire these guns from legal retail outlets how many are borrowed stolen smuggled bought on the black market use of knives it is allowed to cary knifes in public but not in your belt or open you americans think it s ok to have a gun but not to carry it open in public rigth some states allow only open carry some allow only concealed carry some allow both some allow both but require licenses for concealed carry all you can say is if one of these modes has a clear advantage over another in terms of reducing crime or any other public good then state legislators someplace are doing exactly the wrong thing which means that they really don t have any objective reasons for these laws other than their preferences a bad way to govern scandinavians are aggressive we northeners are not as hot livered as southeners but when we decide to take action we do hot livered i love that expression here we say hot headed individual vs masses yes the individual is more important than the masses but only to some extent your criminal laws are to protect the individuals who makes the masses what happens when the rigths of some individuals affects the rights of all the others typically the only criminals who can affect the rights of all the other people are criminals in government offices the rest of our criminals affect the rights of only one or a few people at a time and they do this during the commission of a crime possession of a gun by someone hurts no one else it is when they do something violent with that gun that the crime occurs of course it is a crime for a felon or ex felon to possess a gun but we don t feel it is right to treat common citizens who have lived good lives as if they were just pre felons waiting to commit crimes we shouldn t mix weapons and items that can serve as one i don t understand this sentence if i lived in amerika i would probably have a gun to defend myselfe in home but should it have to be like that life isn t fair i shouldn t need a fire extinguisher either or flood and theft insurance or to lock the doors of my house and car but pining for a better world won t do anything to address what i have to do to live in this one do you think it s wise to sell guns like candy some states do none of ours i m sure if you believe it s smart neccacery to have drivers licence why do you think it should be free to buy guns frankly i m not sure i know what good a driver s license does anyone either the people who drive safely never use it and the people who drive drunk drive without it however a car is a good tool but not one that protects my right to life i rank the right to life somewhere north of the right to travel freely i m not a pacifist or anti gun i would defend my home loved ones and country but i don t view guns as neccities or toys i have done army service and have used a variaty of weapons but wouldn t want to have one for self defence or because they feel good the question is not whether or not you want to own guns personally it s whether or not you think that all people should be forced to do as you do i don t have any problem with someone who says they would never own a gun i do have a problem with someone who says i should be prevented from owning one too cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re long gun hearings day in massachusetts april this is a co authored report from two of us who were there gun owners action league our state rifle association started the day with a rally in the secluded courtyard behind the statehouse at it was looking sparse about people until the speaker began whereupon about more people followed the loudspeakers from wherever they had been lost and filled out the area something proud mike yacino of goal spoke one of his best throwaway lines was to remind us that all of us holders of carry permits there had been checked and certified clear of all crimes by the state while the people in the statehouse behind us only had to be certified clean of election fraud to hold their jobs nancy snow and amos hamburger were busy handing out id buttons and sheets describing all the bills to be presented at the hearings and telling people where to find their own representatives and in too many cases who they were mike warned us that the committee was going to suspend its rules and discuss a bill that hadn t made it onto the official list it seems a delegation of students from simon s rock of bard college alma mater of wayne lo who shot up the place with an sks late last year was being bussed in to testify for a bill to ban all sales of firearms or ammo to anyone who is not a state resident the hearings were originally scheduled in the large gardner auditorium at but that had been pre empted by the governor s hearings on the framingham eight women in prison for killing abusive husbands and seeking release so we had until to buttonhole our representatives after which we would be squashed into an inadequate hearing room one of my representatives staffers was somewhat offensively smarmy he said oh it must be gun hearings day again the gun lobby is always so organized every year i got a little pissed and replied i m not from the gun lobby i m from your district at your second reporter arrived in time to notice a demonstration going on in front of the statehouse where the pro gunners weren t randy price from the tv news was there in his mirror reflective shades talking to one of the anti gun types and several simon s rock anti gun close the loophole protestors earlier randy had covered the goal rally the room we had been assigned seated about remember there were about gun owners there plus another students and teachers from bard one of us had already reserved a seat the other never got closer than the atrium outside and there was a crowd behind him a cop took up station at the entrance and prevented the rest of the crowd from coming in soon after the debate started a loudspeaker was set up outside in the hall for the benefit of everyone else everyone who was there inside and outside got to sign up on a sheet saying what their position was on which bills most of us signed up to support goal s position on all bills first because of their time constraints public officials got to testify and first up was the bill that nobody had seen the students had some curfew i guess currently massachusetts law allows a non resident to purchase long guns or ammo from a local dealer provided he complies with the laws of his own state previously the law was similar but applied only to non residents from states adjoining massachusetts the simon s rock folks called the current law a loophole and wanted it closed two of their reps spoke about wayne lo and his sks assault rifle the second one hodgekiss a co sponsor had done his homework so well that he kept confusing montana wayne lo s home state with missouri and became belligerent when about five gun owners in the gallery corrected him after his second muff carr from gloucester claimed that the new bill would put the law back the way it was but he was lying the new bill allows purchases by non residents of adjoining states only if they have licensing in their own state as strong as that in massachusetts since none of them do that s that some of the things these two said were really offensive in some of these other states anyone can buy a gun as long as he s breathing oooooo we have some very very good gun laws in massachusetts if only the other states would adopt the same type of laws we wouldn t be having this situation but they won t naughty naughty next up was boston city councilman albert dapper o neill he was there to testify pro gun but in some ways he was a liability he s reasonably elderly and tends to wander and repeat himself plus he s almost a caricature of a law n order politician he badmouthed the aclu said violent criminals should be executed and that if he were judge he d give arrestees their last rights pun intended on the spot at which many of the gun owners applauded which bothered me he said that all the proposed gun restrictions were a step in the right direction for the criminals he said this four times two of the bills under consideration would allow police to rescind a ccw or fid and confiscate all your guns if someone had filed a restraining order against you note that the filing of a restraining order requires no warrant no hearing no evidence and no conviction just an accusation senator barrett of reading testified in favor of it and patronized the pro gunners there several times by saying i m sure all the gun owners here will agree with me that we have to get these weapons out of the hands of people that our courts have convicted i haven t seen such a disgustingly disingenuous performance since nixon whined that he wasn t a crook barrett also spoke in favor of the bill making the fid card renewable every five years instead of permanent as it is now the stated purpose is to remove fid cards from those who have become ineligible revenue has nothing to do with it yeah right apparently some congressmen think we re stupid enough to swallow the argument that it s preferable to process million renewals every cycle in the vague hope of catching a recent felon than to simply take the goddamn card away from a criminal at conviction time as usual hassle the law abiding instead of the crook the two co chairs of the committee were rep caron and sen jujuga jujuga didn t say much he was a co sponsor of both restraining order bills but caron struck me as a sharp guy that wouldn t let any bad logic or lies on the part of either side to go unchallenged he was a co sponsor of one of the restraining order bills as well one of the younger reps on the committee forgot his name was vociferously pro gun somewhat embarrassingly so his heart was in the right place but his arguments seemed to be confined to every year it s the same damn thing you come in here with this crap it s nice to have a friend on the committee but he could have been more effective at about it was clear that the hall jam couldn t continue someone came out of another meeting hall and yelled at the cop because the loudspeaker was disturbing their meeting so the loudspeaker was disconnected so they found a bigger hall upstairs one of us had to leave to catch his charter bus and so missed the public testimony the other got a seat this time caron began by talking about how he got his fid years ago left the state and then returned without notifying them of his address change he complained that the state record system was not up to date and that his pd back in his city of birth still thought he lived there great quote if you purchase a gun today it will not get into the state computer system until this was also an argument he used against the renewable fid card testimony was heard from several battered women one of whom had been attacked by some guy in his s who had an fid card because he got it when he was or thereabouts they used a lot of emotion and said how they were scared of these men a staffer of attorney general harshbarger testified in favor of this anti gun bill saying how restraining orders were granted last year and how these women needed to be protected caron noted that a restraining order was granted for days and then a hearing was held to determine whether the order would be extended to a year he asked whether she would be satisfied if the fid were revoked at the time of this hearing rather than after the initial issuance of the fid she gave some long rambling circumlocution in response then testimony against the bill was heard mike yacino who looks something like einstein got up and made the point that restraining orders were issued on too little evidence that judges like to issue restraining orders just to let things cool off no matter who they think is right man or woman and that the hearings for restraining orders are lightning sessions with little time to consider facts atty karen mcnutt spoke with him a few times during his testimony other pro gunners got up to testify one said he had had to file a restraining order against a tenant to clear her out and that she countered by filing one against him he noted that this would have allowed the state to confiscate his guns if the new bill became law one of the junior reps noted that this is america and we have to be certain that individual rights are respected senator jujuga reiterated this saying that people who abuse smaller people can go to hell as far as i care but we have to be careful about equating conviction with a restraining order point and match senator another pro gunner got up and testified that he didn t know his citizenship expired every years and that a driver s license was a privilege not a right like the right to keep and bear arms a third got up and said the problem was with the criminal justice system and argued in favor of a death penalty bill and public hangings senator jujuga said he had himself tried to get a death penalty bill passed and joking responded that he too favored public hangings the speaker then responded i ll make you a deal you get me the rope and i ll tie the noose next came public testimony on the simon s rock bill a teacher testified that she had been the teacher of wayne lo and that he wouldn t have been able to shoot people inside a building while he was outside without his evil gun she said that the loophole should be closed to prevent something like this from ever happening again four or five other kids testified in favor of this bill one of spilling tears for the good legislators one of the students actually shot by wayne lo was also there many of them had t shirts on saying as long as one person can buy a gun in anger none of us are safe support gun control the committee was reluctant to grill or correct the kids except for caron who corrected one student who had claimed that anyone could apply for an fid only residents can get fid s he said how much do you want to bet that this kid had no idea he had been conned into testifying for a bill that would cut out of staters completely off yacino and mcnutt spoke again this time noting that the bill as written would affect both ammo and all guns possessed by out of staters karen also noted that hunters in ct nh and vt could be put away for a year if they wandered across the ma boundary somewhere in the woods and got challenged by game wardens yacino underscored the fact that lo could have gotten an fid as a resident student and hell even an ccw as he had no criminal or mental record one junior rep was upset that it would take ma residents longer to buy a gun than out of staters and thought it was elitist another caron said that we need the protection of preventing non residents from buying without an fid because only two other states in the union had fid type cards so complying with all the laws of one s home state was not enough one pro gun speaker replied that this resembled a mother watching her son in a marching band and exclaiming everyone s out of step but johnny all the bard college people were filing out as the pro gun testimony for this bill was made and thus only pro gunners were around when the other bills came under consideration the main bills remaining and goal s position were o h and four others notify police chiefs so they can pull licenses when a holder is convicted strongly supported o h require trigger locks on all handguns sold opposed o h require trigger locks on all loaded firearms strongly opposed o h allow every municipality to enact their own gun laws opposed o h fund bullet proof vests for municipal police supported o s state constitutional amendment for the rkba supported o several on police discretion in the issuance of fid cards opposed o several altering non resident license conditions supported o h ban damn near all guns everywhere in the state guess some of these took only seconds to consider as the remaining pro gunners raised hands in unison either for or against them mike yacino noted that besides the danger in screwing with a trigger lock on a loaded gun that bill would make it illegal for a licensee to carry his concealed handgun unless it were locked caron blew right through h when he saw that we opposed it again he brought up the state s archaic records capability and said this would create hundreds of different licensing systems the session ran late since it was the last scheduled hearing it could not be adjourned until everyone who wanted to had testified it ended at about cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re hr a gun law i can live with cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes in article apr dg rtp dg com meyers leonardo rtp dg com bill meyers writes a bill to establish the right to obtain firearms for security and to use firearms in defense of self family or home and to provide for the enforcement of such right maybe i m too religious but when i see a bill to establish a right i wince keep in mind what the law giveth the law can taketh away cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet i don t think your objection is beyond the bounds of rationality the right mentioned in the bill is already established under the second amendment the bill should be reworded to reaffirm the second amendment rkba and then establish the procedures for redress through the federal court system the right already exists and is already embodied in our constitution aaron arc cco caltech edu
talk.politics.guns	re clinton wants national id card aka ussr style internal passport in article c jif i n boi hp com slack boi hp com david slack writes the idea of the card is bull in and of its self but i m curious to know do they plan on making it a requirement to always have it on you or is it only going to be required to be presented when trying to ge medical aid this at least has already been determined the blue cross medical coverage for all federal employees is a good model for a future national system to get emergency medical care anyone so insured must always carry their blue cross card before entering a hospital you must notify blue cross or they will refuse to pay your bills in an emergency where you must be treated before notifying them you must inform them within hours or if you are unable to do so for medical reasons the hospital must failing to do so within hours means they will not cover the hospitalization in you need your card to notify them and without the card the hospital certainly wouldn t know they had to therefore you are required to carry the card at all times or do without emergency medical coverage frank crary cu boulder
talk.politics.guns	re upi news release cathy smith posting for l neil smith dear bill very very good you made my whole day with this post thanks a lot l neil smith my opinions are of course my own
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card in article apr csd newshost stanford edu andy sail stanford edu andy freeman says i have been at a shooting range where gang members were practicing shooting how do we know that they were gang members and not undercover cops or even law abiding menacing minorities btw why the sneer quotes we know because the area that the gun shop shooting range is in is right on the border of the west side of chicago that is a gang infested area there are many many bad things going on in that area also i have several friends that live very close to that area who have had problems with some of these folks by the way where did i say that they were minorities do you think that only minorities have gangs not so as far as the quotes are concerned it was totally obvious that they weren t just practicing for marksmanship i don t know about you but i have never seen anyone else practice marksmanship by taking their gun out of their coat as fast as possible and start shooting if you would have been there andy it would ve been obvious to you too of course it might not have been who knows all i do know is that i was there i live here and i know that they were gang bangers when you live here long enough it becomes pretty easy to spot them via gang colors gang signs etc one last thing my sister is a social worker she makes it her point to find these things out gang signs colors etc because it is in her best interest to do so she is nice enough to let me know these things so i can watch out for myself as i live right on the border of the west side of the city enough said jason
talk.politics.guns	re ban all firearms in article qc sa obl pandora sdsu edu chiu io nosc mil francis chiu writes a note on the lighter side i ve noticed most gun banners some of my friends included are the one who make comments that indicate they are more likely to resort to violent so are they really banning guns so they wouldn t end up shooting someone else could be it is also likely that since they feel they are more likely to resort to violence they have a hard time believing that anyone else would react otherwise david olson dlo drutx att com well i did say we ll put it out and we ll put it out when we can but i don t know what we can put out or when we can put it out george stephanopolous
talk.politics.guns	re the pill for deer no hunting in article apr gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes the vast majority get through life without ever having to own use or display a firearm given society as we now experience it it seems safer to get rid of as many guns as possible considering that the uses include self defense hunting target shooting and collecting i don t buy the notion that the vast majority of people don t own use or display a firearm but let s say your contention is true what s the point of get ting rid of as many guns as possible if they weren t being used anyway david olson dlo drutx att com well i did say we ll put it out and we ll put it out when we can but i don t know what we can put out or when we can put it out george stephanopolous
talk.politics.guns	re newspapers censoring gun advertisements i don t know what traders is claiming but it appears to me that the oakland tribune has censored gun ads in the past likewise for the san francisco chronicle and i have never seen a gun ad in the san francisco examiner specifically about a year ago on thursdays when traders placed its ads the chron ad would not have any graphics representing any handgun sale though text could list it the trib would run a graphic of a handgun the examiner would not have a traders ad at all over the past year while oakland politicians have made a lot of noise about measures to fight crime the trib stopped taking the traders ad then started publishing it but without any handgun graphic then stopped then started since the trib was sold some months ago it has not had the traders ad during one of these non ad interludes a traders employee told me that the trib had refused to take their ads yes the usual chron thursday ad was there today with graphics representing rifles safes etc as usual joan v
talk.politics.guns	re insane gun toting wackos unite do you know how many deaths each year are caused by self inflicted gun shot wounds by people wearing thigh holsters there are roughly fatal firearms related accidents each year the large majority involve rifles and shotgun there are under fatal handgun accidents each year i really doubt all of those occur while the pistol is holstered so the number of self inflicted gunshot wounds by people wearing thigh holsters is probably well under per year if you fall for example and land on the handgun or cause a sudden blow the gun will discharge handguns designs have included a hammer block since around or earlier this is a metal part which physically seperates the cartridge and the firing pin even under impact the gun cannot fire the hammer block is connected to the trigger and is pulled out of the way as the trigger is pulled as a result modern pistols can fire only if the trigger is pulled or in some cases if they are cocked by hand and then dropped the number of people killed in this manner far outweighs the number of deaths caused by animal attacks or wacko attacks combined i don t know about animal attacks but there are murders each year and under die in the manner you suggest if only of the murders were killings by wacko s you would be wrong worse there are also rapes and aggravated assaults each year these numbers make violent attacks and preventing them thousands of times more significant than the accidents you are worried about these figures by the way are from the fbi s uniform crime report for i ll stop by a library tomorrow and look at the national crime victimization survey which is more specific about where and when the crimes occured frank crary cu boulder
talk.politics.guns	deconcini ten years ago and today dennis deconcini in these and similar areas the bureau has violated not only the dictates of common sense but of u s c sec which was intended to prevent secret lawmaking by administrative bodies these practices amply documented in hearings before this sub committee leave little doubt that the bureau has disregarded rights guaranteed by the constitution and laws of the united states it has trampled upon the second amendment by chilling exercise of the right to keep and bear arms by law abiding citizens it has offended the fourth amendment by unreasonably search ing and seizing private property it has ignored the fifth amendment by taking private property without just compensation and by entrapping honest citizens with out regard for their right to due process of law the rebuttal presented to the subcommittee by the bureau was utterly unconvincing richard davis speaking on behalf of the treasury department asserted vaguely that the bureau s priorities were aimed at prosecuting willful violators particularly felons ille gally in possession and at confiscating only guns actually likely to be used in crime he also asserted that the bureau has recently made great strides toward achieving these priorities no documen tation was offered for either of these assertions in hearings before batf s appropriations subcommittee however expert evidence was submitted establishing that approximately percent of batf gun prosecutions were aimed at ordinary citizens who had neither criminal intent nor knowledge but were enticed by agents into unknowning technical violations exerpt from th congress d session committee print t h e r i g h t t o k e e p a n d b e a r a r m s report of the subcommittee on the constitution of the committee on the judiciary united states senate ninety seventh congress second session february printed for the use of the committee on the judiciary u s government printing office o washington letter to constituent april thank you for contacting me regarding the bureau of alcohol tobacco and firearms atf which is the federal law enforcement agency with jurisdiction over firearms violations and regulations it has been my experience as chairman of the appropriations subcommittee on treasury postal service and general government which funds atf that atf is one of the most competent and highly professional law enforcement agencies in the federal government the agents of atf have proven their value again and again in successful legal operations to curb the unlawful possession and use of firearms especially in the area of drug related crimes it enforces the armed career criminal act which calls for mandatory minimum sentences for repeat felons using firearms to carry out an illegal activity the bureau has made itself a key component in preventing gang related violence also both by educating at risk youth to the dangers of gang membership as well a s by depriving known gangs from access to weapons the waco texas case involved the execution of search warrants by atf on the branch davidians for illegal firearms and explosives possession automatics semi automatics and machine guns in addition to bombs and other explosives in virtually every gun case atf is asked to trace weapons through its national firearms tracing center where they keep all dealer and federal firearms license information atf is the federal governments firearms expert and routinely works with state and local police to execute warrants atf working with state and local law enforcement in texas and the u s attorneys office felt it was necessary to execute these warrants in order to legally establish that a crime had been committed and conclude a long and thorough investigation of illegal gun and explosives held by members of the branch davidians in addition atf carefully selected a sunday morning knowing from their source inside that the men would be separated from the women and children and not in the area where it was known that the illegal weapons were stored as you may be aware by now vernon howell a k a david koresh spiritual leader of the branch davidians was tipped of the impending execution of the search warrants unfortunately atf lost the element of surprise and the cult was able to arm themselves and prepare for atfs entry into the compound once a hostage situation presented itself the atf asked the fbi to become involved since the fbi is skilled in hostage negotiations in addition and military tanks were brought in due to the serious nature of the situation and firepower of the branch davidians based on what i have learned about atf s role in the branch davidian raid i believe the agency acted responsibly i am however deeply saddened by the loss of lives of the law enforcement agents who attempted to enter the compound and the civilian members of the cult i fully expect the department of treasury to conduct a thorough evaluation with representatives from law enforcement outside the department to be headed by the assistant secretary for enforcement in addition atf will conduct its own review of the waco operation i look forward to reviewing the findings of the evaluators and hope this situation in waco will be brought to a quick and peaceful conclusion sincerely dennis deconcini chairman subcommittee on treasury postal service and general government april larry cipriani l v cipriani att com
talk.politics.guns	crimestrike alert for texas fellow texans and members of crime strike in texas crime strike in texas has a loosely knit coalition with most victims rights groups in texas we ask that you write a letter protesting the release of the following murderer this letter should be written to raven kazen victims services board of pardons and paroles p o box capital station austin texas the letter should be written if at all possible on red paper as that was agreed on at one of our first meetings it represents the coalition and all of its parts as well as the heart ache of those left behind and the blood spilled by these criminals the letter should have only one name on it so it can be filed in the folder of that criminal waiting for his next try at parole list of criminals today we have only one parole to protest on october mark steven hughes rendered numerous blows to the head of james allen pompa ten month old james went into a coma and died two days later on july mark steven hughes pled guilty to injury to a child and received a ten year sentence according to texas law mark became eligible for parole on january six months before he was even sentenced would you join us in strongly protesting the release from prison of mark steven hughes who beat a baby to death mark steven hughes beat to death the baby boy of russel pompa reference mark steven hughes tdc mark your envelope protest letter on the front and back a typical letter is indicated on the next page thank you very much irvin wilson volunteer crime strike texas date april raven kazen victims services board of pardons and paroles p o box capital station austin texas i protest the parole of mark steven hughes tdc who murdered james son of russel pompa he should be kept in prison for his full sentence and not be released at any time prior to his full sentence for any reason irvin wilson houston texas larry cipriani l v cipriani att com
talk.politics.guns	ohio legislative alert h b ohio house of representative tueday april h b no representative beatty to ammend section and and to enact n of the revised code to expand the defintion of dangerous ordinance to include military weapons that do not use bolt action to increase the penalty for a violation of the prohibtion against possesion of dangerous ordinance to prohibit any person from acquiring a military weapon on or after the act seffective date to require the licensure of military weapons acquired for a proper purpose prior to the act s effective date to prohibit a person from importing manufacturing or selling a military weapon and to declare an emergency as of monday april h b had not been assigned to a committee introduced as an emergency measure if this passes there is no chance for a reforendum and would go into effect immediately as opposed to the state requirement of days before a law goes into effect larry cipriani l v cipriani att com
talk.politics.guns	ohio legislative alert h b ohio house of representative thursday april h b no representatives seese davis batchelder amstutz t johnson van vyven wachtmann white di donato boggs logan to amend section of the revised code to add mourning dove to the game bird list and permit the chief of the division of wildlife in the department of natural resources to regulate the hunting of mourning doves and to make an appropriation this would allow the hunting of mourning doves in ohio and give the sportsman something they have been pushing for larry cipriani l v cipriani att com
talk.politics.guns	re gritz jbs liberty lobby larouche christic insitute libertarian note that bo gritz was on the populist party ticket with david duke for veep in until he found out that duke was leading he ticket when he withdrew his candidacy so gritz gave up his chance to be vice president of the us just to aviod supporting duke
talk.politics.guns	re insane gun toting wackos unite in article apr ucsu colorado edu fcrary ucsu colorado edu frank crary writes do you know how many deaths each year are caused by self inflicted gun shot wounds by people wearing thigh holsters there are roughly fatal firearms related accidents each year the large majority involve rifles and shotgun there are under fatal handgun accidents each year i really doubt all of those occur while the pistol is holstered so the number of self inflicted gunshot wounds by people wearing thigh holsters is probably well under per year i m neither a doctor nor a firearms tech expert but it would seem that given the way a holstered gun points accidental injuries inflicted that way would be among the least lethal david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
talk.politics.guns	re some more about gun control in article c bu m k ulowell ulowell edu jrutledg cs ulowell edu john lawrence rutledge wrote in article q tpinnpcn gap caltech edu arc cco caltech edu aaron ray clements writes the second amendment is a guarantee of the right to bear arms clearly and unequivocally without infringement unfortunately the second amendment is not as clear as you state if last part of it is taken along it follows what you have said the problem i have is with the first part of the single sentence which makes up the amendment the second amendment is a well regulated militia being necessary to the security militia of a free state the right of the people to keep and bear state arms shall not be infringed arms you didn t even get the capitalization correct try reading usca on the constitution or get any other correct version of the constitution this mention of a well regulated militia is what confuses me according to the federalist paper s a well regulated militia has a well defined structure and follows nationally uniform regulations perhaps you should actually read the federalist papers james madison federalist paper besides the advantage of being armed which the americans possess over the people of almost every other nation the existence of subordinate governments to which the people are attached and by which the militia officers are appointed forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of europe which are carried as far as the public resources will bear the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms james madison i annals of congress june the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed a well regulated militia composed of the body of the people trained to arms is the best and most natural defense of a free country alexander hamilton federalist paper on the organization of the militia little more can reasonably be aimed at with respect to the people at large than to have them properly armed and equipped and in order to see that this be not neglected it will be necessary to assemble them once or twice in the course of a year alexander hamilton federalist paper speaking of standing armies if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens little if at all inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow citizens but surely hamilton and madison didn t mean the people when they said people right that s why the amendment refers to the right of the militia your average year old male does not fall into the definition you re right the militia consists of all able bodied males and probably females under current interpretation therefore most members of the militia the one the every gun advocate refers to are not members of a well organized militia and therefore are not directly the amendment does nor refer to well organized it says well regulated i have some targets you may examine if you wish to check how well regulated i am mentioned in the amendment if this amendment wanted to allow every member of the militia to keep and bear arms why did it specificly mention a well organized militia in the same sentence as the right to keep and bear arms correct that s why the right is reserved to the people and that was to insure the people could form a well regulated militia not a well organized militia it could be argued that the first part of the sentence is separate from the last part if so why was it include in the same atomic unit of written what do atomic units have to do with this argument any moron can set h bar c instead of a separate sentence oh i see what your question is why don t you read the federalist papers james madison federalist paper regarding the general welfare clause nothing is more natural nor common than first to use a general phrase and then to explain and qualify it by a recital of particulars but what does madison know about the grammatical style of the nd he only wrote it the amendment also implies that the right to arms has to due with the security of a free state the federalist paper s mention of a well regulated militia gives many examples of how this militia protects the security of a free state all these examples are actions of a very organized force not some john q public with a gun that s obviously because you ve never actually read the federalist papers all that the second amendment clearly states to me is that the people s right to form well regulated militias shall not be infringed that is people have the right to join a well organized militia this well organized militia will of course provide training in how to use arms and in basic military tactics these training members of the militia can keep and bear the arms can t read huh show me where the document says well organized militia lastly reading through the federalist paper s on well organized militia it is very clear that many of the reasons for these militias one reason stated is the protection from a standing army these days the standing army could easily defeat a group consisting of every year old male and female not in the armied forces that is exactly why every person should be allowed to own any weapon currently in use in the armed forces another reason stated for well organized militias is to reduced the need for a standing army well the us armied forces have been a standing army for more than half the history of the us but the major reason is to protect against that very same army it seems to me the whole reason for the second amendment to give the people protection from the us government by guaranteeing that the people can over through the government if necessary is a little bit of an anachronism is this day and age maybe its time to re think how this should be done and amend the constitution appropriately abraham lincoln first inaugural address march this country with its institutions belongs to the people who inhabit it whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their revolutionary right to dismember it or overthrow it rep elbridge gerry of massachusetts spoken during floor debate over the second amendment i annals of congress at august what sir is the use of a militia it is to prevent the establishment of a standing army the bane of liberty whenever governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people they always attempt to destroy the militia in order to raise an army upon their ruins so now we know which category mr rutledge is in he means to destroy our liberties and rights charles scripter cescript phy mtu edu dept of physics michigan tech houghton mi when all government in little as in great things shall be drawn to washington as the centre of all power it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated thomas jefferson
talk.politics.guns	re nuclear heavy weapons and the militia long fcrary ucsu colorado edu frank crary writes down to some odd lines we must be making progress on an ironic note where i deleted lines emacs continually gave me the message garbage collecting done think it s trying to tell me something viking iastate edu dan sorenson writes and thank you it s a great change from the same tired old debates you lurkers can join in at any time you know ahhh talk politics guns the kindler gentler newsgroup who would have thought no not exactly the only reason for this sort of restriction is the possible endangerment of others a poorly maintained rifle is dangerous but only to the user since it doesn t endanger others there is no justification for such restrictions i remind you of shrapnel i consider a reasonable space limitation but make no mistake a gun blowing up is a hazard to those nearby say in the next lane at the range my point was at what distance or level of threat we draw the line is it the endangerment of others so we do a restriction or the possibility of being shot hence we draw a mile restriction or a nuke and draw a mile restriction to me they al suffer from the fundamental flaw that they restrict based upon the instrument rather than placing the responsibility for usage squarely upon the shoulders of the user perhaps sen metzenbaum declaring the barrett light fifty an assault rifle has made this more apparent to me since the barrett has only range and acurracy going for it they have determined that their lives are worth the effort to protect their homes and families using nuclear weapons close to home will not accomplish this i disagree on the grounds that a house can be rebuilt much more easily than my family once i have died i assume that word would get to the citizens that such an attack was planned if this is not the case the tactical and strategic implications change quite a bit personally my home is worth say twenty martians intent on taking over the world my family all of them the balancing act here is hard to judge sitting at my desk there is however another problem in any case of civil war the strength of the militias fighting on each side should reflect the popular will if the public is split versus then the minorities militias should be at a disadvantage such a need for popular support would hopefully prevent insurrections unless the people really were behind the rebels but heavy weapons owned by a small fraction of the militia could distort this what if the minority included all the tank and artillery owners that seems to be the case already given that heavy weapons aren t commonly owned by the citizenry with such low numbers obviously due to cost i don t think the superior weapons are going to be of great effect against a numerically superior foe furthermore it is even more doubtful their training includes proper tactical movements that best utilize tanks whereas the commonly rifleman is not so hampered in effectiveness i think it is vital to avoid such a situation where a small minority would have a reasonable chance of gaining political power through violence to prevent this it may be necessary to give control of heavy weapons e g those which only a small number of individuals would own and whose firepower would grossly distort the relation between popular support and military strength to someone other that individual militiamen this is certainly not a good thing but i think it is the lesser of two evils whoever controls these weapons must be a democratic body responsive to the will of the people i had envisioned that the armorer perhaps the officers of a select group and the like would exercise control over the heavier more complex weapons but if joe bob owns an old sherman tank i certainly wouldn t ask him to give it up follow orders from the officers yes since the expense of a tank is so large though chances are it would be jointly purchased and should therefore be jointly maintained and operated here i think we have to be carefull about which state we are talking about certainly one role of the militia is to overthrow a repressive government and it would be completely destructive to that end for that same government to control the militia s arms but the united states have several levels of government each able to act independently but not all likely targets of rebelion as such rebelions against state and local governments are very unlikely i think therefore that the state or possibly local governments could safely be allowed to keep the select militia s heavy weapons the risk of abuse while still something to consider is far less than the similar risk were the federal government in control this i ll agree with to a point the state having control over the heavy weapons should not be justification for the state to have them centrally located keep them spread out such that the ability of the state to lock them up isn t so easy otherwise i would have to assume that state control would rest on the authority of the governor and militia officers that is eaxctly why i think they should be removed the select militia should privide the militia s heavy weapons and highly trained specialists for the reasons i have outlines above i think these heavy weapons tanks artillery aircraft etc are better off being kept by local governments than by a small number of individuals however local governments shouldn t be able to use the select militia without the support to the people ideally the general militia under the direct control of the people and the select militia under the direction of democratic local governments would opperate together but even in the worst case the general militia should be able to functional without the select militia similarly the select militia should be incapable of action without the aid of the general militia i m having a hard time seeing how these heavy weapons fairly few in numbers could not be easily wielded by a few people with government support just as you argued above that the weapons should be divvied up and under democratic control so one side doesn t have all of them i can t see where this situation is alleviated in having the select militia holding all the weapons and the unorganized militia being the infantry i think a better mix is called for but i would argue that the federal army should rely upon the select militia and the unorganized militia for the bulk of its infantry units consider then the effect of removing the national guard s infantry and placing the guard under the control of local governments the government controled select militia could not fight effectively without infantry support provided by the general militia an inherently infantry organization on the other hand the general militia could function although at a disadvantage without the backing of local governments and the select militia we have to assume that there would be those who would side with the government controlled forces and if they ve all the equipment an infantry force x the size would be in trouble i d like to see that heavy stuff say tanks offset by the local troups having a few s and anti tank weapons in their armory these would be much more useful to infantry than the tank would be when cost and training requirements are figured in i suppose i m quibbling over what constitutes heavy equipment but a mechanized infantry unit is what builds dikes in times of flood sets up disaster relief cities and the like i would much rather see these things handled by the local general militias so would i but the resources often aren t available to outfit local units well enough thus we will certainly have to call in others and a mechanized unit carries more stuff faster than anything else perhaps the national guard isn t as close to my conception of the select militia as i thought i was considering them to be the heavy weapons armor arm of the militia not the infantry arm of the regular army perhaps our ideas of heavy weapons are different i think main battle tanks self propelled artillery and mm and up field pieces are heavy stuff m troop carriers ton trucks humvee s old m tanks howitzers are more the stuff of a mechanized infantry actually this is what the guard units in iowa are currently fielding in some units perhaps it is just my innate fear of having the real heavy equipment under state control with little but numbers and light stuff to act as a deterrent allowing main battle tanks to the states should be balanced with anti tank capability in the local ranks similarly local units would need to band together quickly hence small and fast response means mechanized infantry finally the militia is more than just fighting equipment is needed for other responses the federal army i m convinced should have a very minumum of infantry relying on the state and local militias for these functions dan sorenson dod z dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what i read not what i say don t blame them usenet post to exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no writes i hate long postings but this turned out to be rather lengthy that s ok you can mail me if you want more discussion acquiring weapons in norway you can buy almost all kinds of weapons in norway but you must have a permit and a good reason to get the permit around here long guns are proof of age and fill out the forms for pistols nation wide check for felonies and three days wait the good reason is the difference and one americans tend to get annoyed over as we see no reason the guy with the badge is any better than us it s a little like getting a drivers licence isn t it you have to prove that you can drive before you are allowed to not when dealing with america i can drive an wheel truck with no permit no license and at age if i m engaged in farming work strange that but there is little to no problem with this again personal rights versus collective security some crimes are commited with guns that have been in the owners arms for a long time but these are rather the exeption most criminals accuire guns to use them in crimes and mostly short time befor the crime strange that the rates would decline since killing somebody is much more frowned upon than merely stealing a gun use of knives it is allowed to cary knifes in public but not in your belt or open you americans think it s ok to have a gun but not to carry it open in public rigth why attract attention i carry my sword openly to and from practice as that is the only legal thing i can do i also attract a lot of attention doing this i d rather be lost in a crowd of one than be the subject of attention while carrying a weapon think of the word intimidation and you can see where intimidation is not the preferable method for the normal citizen scandinavians are aggressive we northeners are not as hot livered as southeners but when we decide to take action we do ask any historian or millitary with an knowledge of europe or ask any german who served in norway in ww aggressive towards whom southerners germans precisely why i think your society is less violent weapons aside yes the individual is more important than the masses but only to some extent your criminal laws are to protect the individuals who makes the masses what happens when the rigths of some individuals affects the rights of all the masses editor barf dan then the masses have the same rights as the individuals because everything comes down to the individual in one instance or another to draw an analogy norway is involved in the eec the usa in involved in nato the eec requires certain changes in your laws nato requires no such changes in usa law these laws affect citizens and hence norway is saying europe is more important than say norwegians having motorcycles that make over bhp in the usa we d likely tell the eec to get stuffed since the eec has no business in our eyes in telling us how much horsepower we can safely ride while i note that our own state governments often play with game with the federal government in essence this is a cultural difference between us if i lived in amerika i would probably have a gun to defend myselfe in home but should it have to be like that it shouldn t since neither of our countries has managed to remove criminals from society in america we feel and remember we have individual states that are larger than your country that if the police cannot protect us then we must do so ourselves the criminals in our country are quite violent hence we prepare for them do you think it s wise to sell guns like candy some states do if you believe it s smart neccacery to have drivers licence why do you think it should be free to buy guns we don t e mail me to find out just how difficult it really is in this country it is easier than in yours but theft is far easier than the troubles we go through to purchase over here i would defend my home loved ones and country but i don t view guns as neccities or toys they are neither they are an option we would never force you to own guns if you lived here we would however fight to keep that option open to you i have done army service and have used a variaty of weapons but wouldn t want to have one for self defence or because they feel good then you show you are a responsible rational user of weapons welcome to our ranks now how do we teach the young people this sort of responsibility cultures seem to have a grave impact here i notice you didn t use my great grandfather s name well he didn t like it much either dan sorenson dod z dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what i read not what i say don t blame them usenet post to exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them
talk.politics.guns	re that silly outdated bill was re koresh and miranda in article apr cbnews cb att com lvc cbnews cb att com larry cipriani writes as for the move incident wasn t the mayor of philadelphia at the time black for the first move incident no bomb several members killed in gunfire circa the mayor was the very white frank rizzo for the second bomb included the mayor was wilson goode who is indeed black jim halat
talk.politics.guns	re a scoop of waco road please cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes your lite posting for the day from rec humor funny in article s adf looking on ca bellas tti com pete bellas writes there is a new ice cream flavor inspired by the incident at waco it s called mount caramel it s full of nuts but you can t get it out of the carton cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet even though i find this to be funny on the surface the original poster of the joke has tried and convicted the members of the bd to be a bunch of nuts this may be a dangerous thing to do it is my opinion that most educated or well informed people of this country have some distrust of the government this should exist because as a bureaucracy any government given enough time will tend to exist for it self and not for the original purpose it was created for this distrust by the people should keep those in power in line that and a properly functioning press when a sensationalism oriented press portrays a group of people as nuts or crazies a violation of those people s civil rights seem justified since we as american s have the gurantee of rights as enumerated in the constitution to include the nd ammendment the government must appease the public s opinion or risk voted out of existance or if it has become corrupt enough to tamper with domocratic process itself being thrown out by force our government as it stands must appease the public therefore the official press releases portray the bd s as fanatics who are a threat to public safety we must not prejudge people based on one sided information so far the only information that we are being given is comming from the very agency that was embarrased by the bd branch davidians sp it is to their advantage to make the bd s as fanatical and dangerous as possible if they were portrayed as law abiding citizen s then they atf had no justification what so ever of doing what they did so let s keep an open mind jokes like above even though it may be funny may mislead the public from the truth of the matter just as an aside my understanding of u s vs rock island and u s vs dalton leads me to believe that the national firearms act which allows the fed s in this case atf to regulate firearms machine guns has been deemed to be unconstitutional since by two federal district courts at least and since i believe the only reason atf was involved in this case is because of firearms violations it would be interesting to find out whether or not the search warrent was based on the nfa it would be very embarrassing indeed if a search warrent based on a possibly unconstitutional law has resulted in deaths law enforcement the above opinions are mine and mine only i m solely responsible for my opinions and my actions if you must flame then flame away but a well constructed argument will be much more respected young hoon yoon yoony rpi edu north hall n zud hibp ecse rpi edu rensselaer polytechnic institute n zud hl kmt former troy ny
talk.politics.guns	re clinton wants national id card aka ussr style internal passport in article apr ucsu colorado edu fcrary ucsu colorado edu frank crary writes in article c jif i n boi hp com slack boi hp com david slack writes the idea of the card is bull in and of its self but i m curious to know do they plan on making it a requirement to always have it on you or is it only going to be required to be presented when trying to ge medical aid this at least has already been determined the blue cross medical coverage for all federal employees is a good model for a future national system to get emergency medical care anyone so insured must always carry their blue cross card before entering a hospital you must notify blue cross or they will refuse to pay your bills in an emergency where you must be treated before notifying them you must inform them within hours or if you are unable to do so for medical reasons the hospital must failing to do so within hours means they will not cover the hospitalization in you need your card to notify them and without the card the hospital certainly wouldn t know they had to therefore you are required to carry the card at all times or do without emergency medical coverage frank crary cu boulder which works fine until you end up in the hospital because you were hit on the head and your wallet with your insurance card is stolen this happened to me and it took six months to sort the mess out these sorts of plans sound nice at first but in the end they just create a lot of paperwork and bureaucracy to deal with all the checking and filing they involve tom the non hacker tsmith seismo soar cs cmu edu the return address is set wrong send personal response to the above address
talk.politics.guns	re guns in backcountry no thanks hmm wouldn t manditory saftey classes registration of both the owner and gun and manditory liability insurance be nice for gun owners the two are not the same as i pointed out above there are significant difference between making rules for use on public property and making rules for ownership the other half of the objection is trust similar things to this have been tried in many local jurisdications across the country and have been abused in far too many cases safety classes which are never sheduled never funded or only one or two is held a year for a limited number of participants registration lists in new york chicago and california have been used for confiscation many gun owners would in theory support these planes although the numbers overwhelmingly show that competence is not the problem that intentional misuse is they ve simply seen it abused and are leery of the next person who comes down the pike with a reasonable suggestion they ve already seen abused gun safety classes sound good in theory but they kind of remind me of the literacy tests used in the bad old days to keep blacks from voting they came with the grandfather clause if your grandfather could vote you could vote sort of like the gun safety laws that only let the political ass kissers have guns doug holland
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi revenge pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes well maybe i am overreacting this is probably the best part of your post everything else is shrill speculation tom gift tomgift uxa cso uiuc edu
talk.politics.guns	re rewording the second amendment ideas you believe that individuals should have the right to own weapons of mass destruction i find it hard to believe that you would support a neighbor s right to keep nuclear weapons biological weapons and nerve gas on his her property there is no law prohibiting having biological weapons or nerve gas on his her property or even walking on government property with such items ipso facto it is now one s right to have such weapons of mass destruction hell the u s patent office has patents on the manufacture of nerve gas that anyone can obtain simply by sending a to the patent office in washington d c p o box these same patents are verboten to english citizens from their own patent office which doesn t surprise me based on the mistrust of the uk government against private ownership of semi automatic rifles if we cannot even agree on keeping weapons of mass destruction out of the hands of individuals can there be any hope for us so you are saying we should have legislation prohibiting owning biological warfare agents or nerve agents will you pass laws against owning chlorine gas or cyanide as well will you pass laws against owning acetylene gas that could have been used against the bradley ifvs had the branch dividians known of their anti combustion engine effects will you pass laws against owning gallon cylinders of propane because they could have been used as flame throwers yes the proverbial road to hell it s always for our own good
talk.politics.guns	change of name make a new newsgroup called talk politics guns paranoid or talk politics guns they r here to take me away move all postings about waco and burn to guess where stop posting on this newsgroup we are all so glad you re trying to save us from the evil goverment but would you mail this in regular mail to let s say people this is not a signature it s merely a computergenerated text to waste bandwith and to bring down the evil internet thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article aej d cmuvm bitnet aej d cmuvm bitnet writes i will be surprised if this post makes it past the censors but here goes monday april edt murder most foul cnn is reporting as i write this that the atf has ignited all the buildings of the branch dividian ranch near waco tx the lies from atf say holes were made in the walls and non lethal tear gas pumped in a few minutes after this started the whole thing went up all buildings are aflame no one has escaped i think it obvious that the atf used armored flame thrower vehicles to pump in unlit napalm then let the wood stove inside ignite it this is murder atf murderers butchers this is genocidal mass slaughter of innocent people including children i have predicted this from the start but god it sickens me to see it happen i had hoped i was wrong i had hoped that there was still some shred of the america i grew up with and loved left alive i was wrong the nazis have won i repeat as of this time there are no survivors god help us all please crosspost don t let them get away with the slaughter of the children w k gorman an american in tears flame on is this guy serious if he would ever really pay attention to the news oops i forgot that the media for the most part loves to jump right on top of a story before all the facts are known as well as to manipulate what we see and thus what we believe any ways one of koresh s devoted followers that did i repeat did survive this genocidal mass slaughter of innocent people besides there are nine survivors in the burn unit of the local hospital and was reported that david was in one of the towers when the shit hit the fan besides a majority of these children were children that he was supposed to have been the father of this then makes them bastard children to a sacraligious zeloit sp also someone should have told david and his followers that if they can t the heat then they should stay out of the kitchen pun intended flame off aaah daniaalson yah wanna fight fight me matthew r hamilton mhamilto mcs kent edu a k a cs physics major h ksuvxb kent edu the lawnmowerman kent state university h ksuvxb kent edu look here for future advice quotes sayings jibberish philosohy
talk.politics.guns	re ax the atf true congress has said that possesion of an unlicensed automatic weapon is a violation of the law congress did not however say that such possesion was a capital offense or a transgression worth getting four good government agents killed and others wounded even if it were a capital offense the warrant was not even an arrest warrant but a search warrant in other words there was no evidence of illegal arms just enough of a suggestion to get a judge to sign a license to search for illegal evidence question as in the rodney king case will the us doj institute criminal civil rights proceedings against the batf or at least an investigation ok sorry i asked
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi revenge am i having a vain hope that an honest investigation will occur on this thing or will it simply be whitewashed under the rug and business as usual will continue to be the order of the day in the new order who will be given the official title of thought police i wonder and if clinton and friends have their way highly likely at this point the new order government will also have all the guns so what if is going to be ten years late i think we are going to discover that we will be paying dearly for putting this fellow in office for decades to come even some die hard supporters are having serious doubts about their savior ahem see the war on drugs as sponsored by the bush and reagan administrations the precedent had well been set for federal agencies to step on more than a few of what people consider rights i won t make excuses for anyone but most of the damage had been done before clinton even entered the race in
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article c rpoj ijv news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes two of the nine who escaped the compound said the fire was deliberately set by cult members correction the fbi says that two of the nine who escaped said the fire was deliberately set by cult members since the press was kept miles away we have absolutely no independent verification of any of the government s claims in this matter kevin s van horn is your religion batf approved vanhorn bert cs byu edu
talk.politics.guns	re ax the atf a few comments on the atf s botched handling of this case attempting to storm the compound in broad daylight the explanation we were given at least at one point was that they thought the cult members would be at religious services my only comment on this bit of idiocy is that if you re going to operate as a quasi military unit you d better understand basic military tactics one cardinal rule is that only a fool plans an operation where if one assumption is incorrect the operation will fail disastrously we were told that atf got four agents killed because they were outgunned they didn t expect such heavy resistance when questioned about why such an overwhelming military style assault was planned we were told that it was because the cultists were thought to be heavily armed can you say contradictory i knew you could the batf has had a bad reputation for years as a bunch of arrogant hotdoggers i was talking to relatives a couple of weeks ago and referred to them as a bunch of crockett and tubbs wannabes i m more than ever convinced that s right on target an anecdote not related to the waco fiasco is that apparently the batf screwed up some of the evidence in the world trade center bombing there s now an excellent chance some of the forensic evidence gathered by the fbi will not be admissible in court this is not hearsay i was told this by a relative of my wife s who happens to be an fbi agent his opinion of the batf was ummm well let s just say uncomplimentary i have still not been presented with one iota of evidence that the bd s had any of the alleged illegal weaponry which was the reason for the raid in the first place btw we re still hearing this justification ag reno on cnn yesterday made references to this issue without any substantiation she also waved around the he s a child abuser and we heard he was beating the children flag sigh a point re the feds in general their handling of the whole siege reflected a complete lack of understanding of the probable thought processes of the cultists ag reno said they pushed the button because they were afraid a mass suicide was in the offing my only comment on that is that if the cultists were that close to the edge what the hell did she think their reaction would be to an hours long assault on the compound where holes were punched in the walls and cs gas pumped in if i were a bd i d expect the forces of the godless government to assault me at any time in that light whether they torched themselves or drank jim jones kool aid is irrelevant also look at how the siege was conducted bright lights loud rock music cutting off communications and other contact with the outside all measures designed to make the bd s feel more and more isolated and threatened this might have been a great strategy if they were dealing with criminals as it was it looks to me like everything they did fed into koresh s paranoid delusions include std disclaimer h dan s
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article r qsrinnc clem handheld com jim de arras writes mr roby you are a government sucking heartless bastard humans died yesterday humans who would not have died if the fbi had not taken the actions they did that is the undeniable truth the question is for how long even if the fbi had done nothing i guess the bds would have committed suicide but maybe not until hunger and thirst gave them the choice between sucide or surrender the bds was warned in beforehand about the fbi action they had the chance to surrender and get a fair trial no matter who started the fire the bds were responsible for peole dying no one else paal ellingsen borgensvingen tlf paale stud cs uit no kvaloeysletta data dobbelt arbeid til alle
talk.politics.guns	re gritz jbs liberty lobby larouche christic insitute libertarian in article apr ccsvax sfasu edu f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu writes in article kckluge apr krusty eecs umich edu kckluge eecs umich edu karl kluge writes and i m sure that people who were big fans of fuedalism pissed and moaned about the emergence of the modern nation state imagine the king allowing serfs their freedom if they could live in the city for a year times change technology changes viable forms of social organization change while concerns about preserving western notions of civil liberties in the face of cultures with very different values is a valid one it s a waste of effort to try to turn back the tide it s much smarter to focus on trying to make sure that the emerging forms of social organization are your response is yet another sign of the trend towards one world government many people such as yourself who are otherwise probably likeable and intelligent show every sign of having been successfully brainwashed you don t recognize that your inevitable tide is rolling into chaos and in no way represents an advance for civilization some of us do indeed lament the passing of old forms such as the bill of rights which are indeed inalienable rights of man that cannot be changed transferred or surrendered rights of man that far transcend yes napoleon wanted a grand new order hitler wanted a thousand year reich lenin knew that bolshevism would give us the universal new man the new world order is just so much of the same old tired garbage the pathetic part is that so many americans seem put not your trust in princes is the biblical proverb the modern analog is governments at the time of the founding of the us the idea that citizens had rights above those of the government was not that common but was explicit in the writings of the founders to a considerable extent englishmen also had those rights yes times change and technology changes the possibility of a few governments enserfing all of mankind was not possible until quite recently in the feudal system the lord was almost as restricted as the serfs so having the people enserf themselves does not make anything better most feudal lords and even most slaveowners did not mistreat those under them freedom of speech and freedom of religion are under real attack now herman rubin dept of statistics purdue univ west lafayette in phone hrubin snap stat purdue edu internet bitnet purdue pur ee snap stat hrubin uucp
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article c rpoj ijv news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes well they had over days to come out with their hands up on national tv to get the trial they deserved instead they chose to set fire to their compund hours after the tanks dropped off the tear gas this is about the third person who s parroted the fbi s line about the fires being set six hours after the tear gas was injected suppose you want to explain to us the videotape footage shown on national tv last night in which a tank with the gas injecting tubes is pulling its injection tubes out of the second story of a building as the building begins to belch smoke and then fire do tell joe
talk.politics.guns	gun talk state legislative update april as william o douglas noted if a powerful sponsor is lacking individual liberty withers in spite of glowing opinions and resounding constitutional phrases the legislative scorecard outlined below resulted from subcommittee committee and floor action many important victories however come from coordinating with legislators to ensure anti gun anti hunting legislation is either amended favorably rejected or never voted these quiet victories are no less impressive in protecting our fundamental civil liberties guaranteed by the second amendment to the u s constitution arizona sb nra supported legislation concerning minors in criminal possession of firearms passed the house is currently awaiting action by the governor arkansas hb firearms preemption legislation was signed by the governor making this the forty first state to pass preemption preemption had passed twice in previous sessions only to be vetoed by then gov bill clinton hb mandatory storage of firearms amended and then killed in committee colorado sb mandating the storage of firearms with a trigger lock killed in committee sb prohibiting the sale of certain semi auto firearms was killed in committee sb so called colorado handgun violence prevention act including a provision for a day waiting period killed in committee connecticut substitute bill no imposing a tax on all firearms ammunition and archery equipment killed in environment committee florida a bill to require a year license at a cost of to own or possess semi automatic firearms with a second degree felony provision years in prison died in committee along with numerous other anti gun owner bills no anti gun legislation passed in florida this year georgia sb supposed instant check with provision allowing for up to a day waiting period defeated in house public safety committee and sent to interim study committee mandatory storage bill sb was defeated in the senate the same bill passed the upper house in illinois hb prohibiting the sale possession manufacture purchase possession or carrying of certain semi auto firearms was defeated in house judiciary ii subcommittee on firearms hb mandatory storage legislation failed in house judiciary subcommittee on firearms hb repeals foid and makes ftip point of sale check permanent passed out of judiciary committee by a vote presently on the calendar for third reading in the house sb mandatory storage bill defeated in committee sb imposing a handgun excise tax failed in senate committee on revenue s subcommittee on tax increases sb imposing a tax on all persons engaged in the business of selling firearms failed in senate revenue committee s subcommittee on tax increases indiana sb statewide firearms preemption passed in the senate and in the house twelve amendments were introduced on the house floor to sb among these amendments were a ban on certain semi auto firearms mandatory storage trigger lock a ban on saturday night specials similar to maryland bill and handgun rationing one handgun per month all were defeated i read this morning s b was defeated lvc kansas hb providing for a hour waiting period on all firearms was defeated in committee hb presently on the governor s desk hb and sb and all relating to victims rights are expected to be enacted into law maine funding for the department of fish and wildlife budget was restored following severe reductions in the governor s proposed budget ld an anti hunting bill which included reverse posting and yard safety zones killed in committee maryland sb firearms incendiary ammunition died in committee on a vote sb reckless endangerment firearms sale or transfer died in committee on a vote sb gun control assault weapons died in committee on vote sb weapons free school zone was withdrawn sb weapons on school property driver s license suspension was withdrawn sb assault pistols sale purchase or transport died in committee on vote sb assault pistols act of died in committee on a vote sb baltimore city firearms rifles and shotguns died in committee on a vote hb pistol and revolver dealers licenses compliance with zoning laws was withdrawn hb regulated firearms sales and transfer died on the senate floor hb handguns and assault weapons advertising for sale or transfer died in committee hb handguns and assault weapons exhibitors died in committee hb assault pistols act of died in committee on a vote hb gun shows sale trade or transfer of regulated firearms died in committee on a vote hb firearms handguns assault pistols handgun roster board was withdrawn hb rifles and shotguns registration was withdrawn hb pistols and revolvers private sales or transfers required notice died in committee and hb prince georges county weapons free school zone was withdrawn mississippi hb closing a loophole allowing felons to possess firearms passed both houses and signed by the governor the bill codifies into law mechanism for certain felons to have their second amendment liberties reinstated nebraska lb and lb mandatory trigger lock bills killed in committee new hampshire h b providing for reciprocity for concealed carry licenses passed h b increasing the term of a license to carry loaded handguns passed new mexico sb imposing a day waiting period defeated in senate committee and then on floor of the senate hb mandatory storage legislation was killed by a vote of in committee hb legislation safeguarding sportsmen in the field from harassment by animal rights extremists signed into law by the governor on march new york seven day waiting period was defeated in the city of buffalo ban on certain semi autos was defeated in monroe county the tax and fee bills to be imposed on guns and ammo were not included in the budget sb making pistol licenses provides for validity of pistol license throughout the state passed senate currently awaiting action in assembly committee north dakota hb granting victims compensation in certain circumstances was signed into law by the governor on april oregon sb banning firearms on school grounds and in court buildings withdrawn as a result of gun owners opposition rhode island hb mandatory firearms storage legislation defeated in committee by a vote of hb an act prohibiting aliens from owning firearm defeated by unanimous vote in committee hb excepting nra instructors from the firearms safety requirement reported favorably hb exempting persons with an attorney general s permit from the day waiting period reported to the floor by a vote of hb extending the term of a permit to carry from two years to three years reported to the floor unanimously utah hb reforming the state s concealed carry statute passed out of house committee sb creating civil liability for so called negligent storage of a firearm and sb creating the offense of reckless endangerment with a firearm killed on senate floor virginia s b and s b requiring proof of state residence to obtain virginia driver s license passed s b which increases the penalty and imposes a mandatory minimum sentence for straw man purchases of multiple firearms passed s b allowing possession of sawed off rifles and shotguns in compliance with federal law passed s b making it a felony for first offense of carrying a concealed firearm without a license which the nra opposes until law abiding citizens can acquire a concealed carry license for self defense was defeated h b increasing the penalty for use of a firearm in committing a felony was passed h b requiring proof of residence to obtain a driver s license passed h b providing for a referendum on the imposition of a statewide three day waiting period in handgun purchases was defeated washington sb calling for waiting periods and licensing for all semi automatic firearms died in committee west virginia s c r which calls for a study to control transfers of handguns and assault weapons was defeated in the senate wisconsin in a referendum up against all odds the determined efforts of the madison area citizens against crime paid off on april when a nonbinding referendum banning the possession of handguns in madison wisconsin was defeated despite opposition to the ban aired largely by firearms owners at a series of public meetings on the issue the common council voted on february to place the referendum on the ballot allowing only seven weeks of campaigning to reverse public opinion on the controversial issue an october poll conducted by the wisconsin state journal found in support and opposed with expressing no opinion by election day of the more than voters who went to the polls cast ballots in opposition to the proposal while voted to have the madison common council enact such a ban the campaign committee spearheaded by the wisconsin pro gun movement and nra ila relied on neighborhood canvassing direct mail and radio tv advertising to educate voters on the civil liberties implications raised by enforcement of the ban if the referendum was approved despite the surprising defeat it is expected that the madison initiative s chief proponent mayor paul soglin will attempt to have the common council enact an ordinance banning handguns downloaded from gun talk a service of the national rifle association institute for legislative action washington dc larry cipriani l v cipriani att com
talk.politics.guns	re letter to the president kdw icd ab com kenneth d whitehead writes the dismissal or resignation of lloyd bensen secretary of the treasury in case you haven t sent it yet it s bentsen not bensen brad
talk.politics.guns	re reasonable civie arms limits in article apr gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes a poster claims he always asks anti gunners what they think would be reasonable personal firepower restrictions ok then caliber not greater than muzzle not greater than ft lbs with any combo of bullet wt vel action single shot rifles and single action revolvers revolvers bearing no more than six rounds and incorporating an anti fanning mechanism to discourage roy rogers wannabes bullets any non explosive variety hps just fine now these specs leave the h r magnum as about the most powerful allowable civie cartridge for handgun or rifle use it would be reasonably effective against home intruders muggers rabid wolves and other such nasties even with the firearm type limitations at the same time this caliber power limit would reduce the ultimate lethality of hits the chances of the average joe encountering a gang of huge individuals all drunk and stoned on pcp and crystal meth and with a bad attitude and all armed and willing to die well it s about zero far less than the chances of getting killed driving your car when will you people realize that our right to keep and bear isn t primarily intended to be for protecting against criminals and beasties in the wild granted it is a big part but we also need military style weapons so we can fight off the government when they come to our door when ten agents come to my door it would be nice to be able to shoot all of them for not upholding the constitution to the best of their ability it will be a lot harder doing that with the puny weapons you listed above please read the federalist papers for all clarification on rkba these documents have cleared up plenty of misnomers that friends of mine have had matt porter mporter cis ohio state edu mporter magnus acs ohio state edu
talk.politics.guns	re change of name in article cmm thomasp holmenkollen ifi uio no thomasp ifi uio no thomas parsli writes make a new newsgroup called talk politics guns paranoid or talk politics guns they r here to take me away move all postings about waco and burn to guess where stop posting on this newsgroup we are all so glad you re trying to save us from the evil goverment but would you mail this in regular mail to let s say people thomas parsli and everybody who talked about the evil arising in europe was labeled reactionary in the late s after all we could negotiate with hitler and trust him to keep his end of the bargain at least that s what stalin and chamberlin thought i guess they forgot to teach you about your country being overrun by the germans in wwii eh thomas and i m sorry you consider outrage at government excesses to be everytime the israelis conduct a mass operation against a terrorist group that is actively killing their citizens and soldiers the world gets indignant but it s ok for the us to assault it s own citizens who were a religous minority and accused of sexual deviation and hoarding weapons i find it real ironic this happened the same day al gore arrived in poland to recognize the sacrifices made in the warsaw ghetto where the same justifications were raised for an armed assault by black clad troops with armor support james s cochrane when in danger or in doubt run in this space gt a prism gatech edu circles scream and shout for rent
talk.politics.guns	re change of name in article cmm thomasp holmenkollen ifi uio no thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no writes make a new newsgroup called talk politics guns paranoid or talk politics guns they r here to take me away move all postings about waco and burn to guess where stop posting on this newsgroup we are all so glad you re trying to save us from the evil goverment but would you mail this in regular mail to let s say people this is not a signature it s merely a computergenerated text to waste bandwith and to bring down the evil internet thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no how about a group called talk that thomas parsli approves clinton administration e mail addresses clintonhq campaign org mcimail provided as a public service by compuserve com compuserve jon edward shum jon mitre org clintonpz aol com america online clinton administration e mail addresses clintonhq campaign org mcimail provided as a public service by compuserve com compuserve jon edward shum jon mitre org clintonpz aol com america online
talk.politics.guns	re who s next mormons and jews in article apr midway uchicago edu thf midway uchicago edu writes in article qvfik rf usenet ins cwru edu cj cleveland freenet edu john w redelfs writes now that big brother has rubbed out one minority religion in waco who is next the mormons or jews the koreshians rubbed themselves out neither mormons nor jews have a propensity for dousing themselves with kerosene so i m not particularly concerned or shall we blame jim jones on the government also i believe we still remember masada where jews killed themselves rather than being captured by the romans while i do not agree with the davidians i must admire their willingness to die for what they believed which jews have had to do often herman rubin dept of statistics purdue univ west lafayette in phone hrubin snap stat purdue edu internet bitnet purdue pur ee snap stat hrubin uucp
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article apr rti rti org jbs rti rti org writes in article c rpoj ijv news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes well they had over days to come out with their hands up on national tv to get the trial they deserved instead they chose to set fire to their compund hours after the tanks dropped off the tear gas this is about the third person who s parroted the fbi s line about the fires being set six hours after the tear gas was injected suppose you want to explain to us the videotape footage shown on national tv last night in which a tank with the gas injecting tubes is pulling its injection tubes out of the second story of a building as the building begins to belch smoke and then fire i ve already corrected my mistake earlier in this thread i saw a brief news report which led to the above inaccuracy i have since seen detailed summaries that show the tanks returned in the late morning so why didn t the bd s leave when the gas was first introduced much earlier in the morning didn t they care about the children why didn t they release the children weeks ago do tell joe
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article apr rti rti org jbs rti rti org writes in article c rpoj ijv news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes well they had over days to come out with their hands up on national tv to get the trial they deserved instead they chose to set fire to their compund hours after the tanks dropped off the tear gas this is about the third person who s parroted the fbi s line about the fires being set six hours after the tear gas was injected suppose you want to explain to us the videotape footage shown on national tv last night in which a tank with the gas injecting tubes is pulling its injection tubes out of the second story of a building as the building begins to belch smoke and then fire do tell joe not to mention that the story was rewritten today those two bd s who admitted to starting the fire forget em they don t exist anyone today a few saw someone starting a fire and our aerial surveillance showed them starting fires at this morning s press conference tomorrow even this excuse may evaporate a reporter pointed out that a bd being brought to arraingement shouted that tanks knocking over lanterns started the fire curiouser and curiouser wayne j warf wwarf ucs indiana edu i speak for myself only clinton gore cia fbi dea assassinate bomb wod bor atf irs resist nsa christian god satan apocalypse zog nazi socialist communist explosive fundamentalist revolution nsc federal reserve constitution gold fema
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card in article u uicvm uic edu jason kratz it is kind of funny though how you were the only one who picked up the part about my sister being a social worker and keeping me up to date on the gang thing everyone else seemed to just skim by that part jason i guess that just means everyone else was mistaken jim jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov
talk.politics.guns	re some more about gun control in article c mzyk e g ulowell ulowell edu jrutledg cs ulowell edu john lawrence rutledge writes no not unconditional but shall not be infringed infringed is defined as to break or ignore the terms of or obligations an oath an agreement law or the like to disreguard violate to go beyond the boundaries or limits tresspass encroach this definition implies the following of some form of existing agreement laws and agreements are made in advance the rights guaranteed by the constitution were considered to be pre existing the only agreement was that they exist therefore no law grants such rights laws can only guarantee protect or infringe such rights websters third new international dictionary of the english language unabridged infringe a to break down destroy b defeat frustrate c confute refute d impair weaken to commit a breach of neglect to fulfill or obey violate transgress vi encroach trespass infringement the act of infringing breach violation nonfulfillment an encroachment or trespass on a right or priveledge trespass now by what stretch of the imagination do you get your ideas about infringement of rights al standard disclaimer
talk.politics.guns	re who s next mormons and jews the two situations are hardly analogous unless you wish to make the dubious claim that the us legal system would provide equivalent treatment to bd children that the romans did for those of conquered rebels actually all the analogy calls for the the branch davidian feeling their treatment would be along these lines after a military assualt instead of a peacefull effort to serve a warrant and weeks os siege such a feeling might not be completely irrational actually if i were one of the survivors and wanted to institute a civil rights violation lawsuit against the treasury dept i would claim that the batf fbi itself was to blame for any mass hysteria insanity without due process the siegers shone lights laser beams multi colored spotlights all the while playing loudly amplified music consisting of everything from tibetan chant to heavy metal and coupled with the fear the poor nutrition the rampant paranoia i d say it was very likely those poor nuts were made even nuttier after all isn t sleep deprivation sensory overload etc part of the new age method of torture
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article aej d cmuvm bitnet aej d cmuvm bitnet writes i will be surprised if this post makes it past the censors but here goes monday april edt murder most foul this is murder atf murderers butchers this is genocidal mass slaughter of innocent people including children well chalk one up for driving away sympathies by looking like a paranoid lunatic i have predicted this from the start but god it sickens me to see it happen i had hoped i was wrong i had hoped that there was still some shred of the america i grew up with and loved left alive i was wrong the nazis have won i repeat as of this time there are no survivors last i heard there were nine apparently as of this point they ve found no bodies except those killed during the initial assault a couple of months ago be cute if koresh hit the trail maybe he was bodily assumed into heaven wouldn t that just make ag reno s day david veal university of tennessee division of continuing education pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed when you pushed me down the elevator shaft sometimes i get to thinking you don t love me anymore weird al yankovic
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi revenge does anyone have any idea about the size of waco i m just curious because if it were a small town that may have something to do with it possibly not it sure didn t take it very long to burn down though i was watching abc and it only took like a little over minutes to burn down waco is a city of about people the population temporarily raised to about people when all the feds and state police officers arrived i tell you what i stayed in a hotel room about miles from the bd compound around weeks ago i have never felt more paranoid in my whole life there were at least state police in the hotel the claim we had the water turned off so the fire engines had to bring their own doesn t hold up if they had cut off the water they surely could have turned it back on just as quickly they just didn t want to there were some scores to settle message to anybody else is very clear don t fuck with us we will do you in not that i am one to believe that everything that the government tells us is true but if that was the message they wanted to send why did they wait days i think the message would be better sent by charging in there right away not waiting for days and pounding them with sound etc a bunch of dead bd members are not going to be so able to tell their side of the story so now all we have is the story according to the batf and fbi also mr care about the rights of people clinton or his administration approved this action fbi said washington had approved it they fbi said the gas masks used by the bds have a finite life and were close to running out why couldn t they have just waited well there are people supposedly alive they can tell their story as far as bill clinton is concerned don t you think he has more pressing matters to attend to besides some small group of people in texas how about bosnia now there s a problem why couldn t they have waited they waited too long as it is something should have been done earlier they gov is trying to say it was a mass suicide in the past they had expressed this was a real possibility but now they decided it wasn t a possibility so they could go on with the raid apparantly what they feel korash was or was not capable of or going to do was driven by what was most convenient at the time now this means that the public and media will forget about all this having become weary of it this has already happened for many people there will be no investigation independent or otherwise or a whitewash very much a possibility there will be no unsealing of the warrant and related documents what anybody will know about this incident will be the batf version with the way our government is i wouldn t doubt it the batf has just been given carte blanche for further abuses with the effective support and approval of the administration clinton said on the news that he knew about what was happening but that it was all in the hands of the fbi that is if you choose to believe the media there will be more abuses with no concern of administration censure the precident has been established that the feds can kill in quantity to achieve their aims especially if the target is excercising their rights under the second amendment and the rest of the bill of rights and is a government declared un nice fellow if they had rocket launchers and such as the press and gov claims why shouldn t they have done something what possible use would a religious cult have for a rocket launcher also is child abuse covered by the bill of rights lls and clams will be pleased dung tsow ping sp will be pleased saddam hussein sp will be pleased idi amin would be pleased stalin would be pleased even hitler would be pleased any self respecting despot would nod and say well done bill clinton well then there are probably a lot of self respecting despots in the us cause i m sure they feel the same way god bless america land of the free past tense well maybe i am overreacting but i see on the tv as i am typing where maybe maybe not there are a lot of questions that should be raised about this incident the problem is who will do it and be heard govt spoksewoman the new attorney general known to be almost rabid about private ownership of guns wants to ban assault guns and just about everything else is saying the fbi had amazing restraint then falls back into the official goverenment line about how the bd were guity of child abuse and were into it in an on going basis and so on note that according to the liberal elite giving a child a spanking is regarded as child abuse seriously if it gets known the state can take your child away from you if you spank your kid she also is saying which state is that the federal government or an individual state government clinton personally approved this operation she told him it was appropriate and so on and he said ok do it somehow i am not surprised the people must know who is boss who is in charge and it is obviouly no longer the people it seems to me that the people haven t been in charge for a long time if they really were i don t think the government would be doing as many things as it has in the past and i maintain the appropriate response as far as this raid by batf is concerned regarding child abuse is so what batf are not our child protective services police yet after all the bd had been tried on that charge before and found not guilty the gov t people have pretty much gone silent on the terrible illegal guns bd supposedly has and stress the continued child abuse apparantly to make it a seem as sort of a rescue operation figuring everyone hates child abusers and anything is ok to use against them occasional references to ammunition possesed by the bds and so on is irrelevant it is not illegal to have ammunition yet true but is it illegal to have a rocket launcher am i having a vain hope that an honest investigation will occur on this thing or will it simply be whitewashed under the rug and business as usual will continue to be the order of the day in the new order who will be given the official title of thought police i wonder and if clinton and friends have their way highly likely at this point the new order government will also have all the guns so what if is going to be ten years late i think we are going to discover that we will be paying dearly for putting this fellow in office for decades to come even some die hard supporters are having serious doubts about their savior shit if people dont get what they want right away there is an instant problem clinton has only been in office for a few months give him a chance to get something done the guy had a lot of shit thrown in his lap in the beginning give him a chance to work on things a little as they say rome wasn t built in a day yes i am upset i see no good as far as civil individual rights to come of any of his proposals decisions for the last month or so we have really been had or bill of rights is now nothing but a quaint curiosity i highly doubt that it is that bad yet how about the rodney king trial the two people who were most responsible got the axe how bad the axe falls tho is yet to be seen anybody for impeachment nope i would prefer to give bill a little more than four or five months to solve the nations problems pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien jason u uicvm cc uic edu
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article r v c i j menudo uh edu hadcrjam admin uh edu miller jimmy a writes in r poqinnc k clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com writes in article c rdaw s dartvax dartmouth edu zed dartmouth edu ted schuerzinger writes well it s now tuesday morning where are those two arsons now i said yesterday they would vanish and there has been no further mention of them just the desired impression is left according to kikk radio in houston all nine survivors are either in hos pitals or in jails inlucding the two who allegedly helped start the firess in the fbi briefing no mention was made of having the fire starters in custody why could no one else even talk to them why could koresh s grandmother not talk to him or even send him a taped message why the total isolation well it wasn t total isolation after the lawyer snuck in the first time they the fbi etc let him go back inside several times including i think the day before the final assualt why not his mother why not the media semper fi jammer jim miller texas a m university and i don t speak for uh which is too bad because they could use the help become one with the student billing system be the student billing system power finds its way to those who take a stand stand up ordinary man rik emmet gil moore mike levine triumph jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article apr mcs kent edu mhamilto nimitz mcs kent edu the lawnmowerman writes also someone should have told david and his followers that if they can t the heat then they should stay out of the kitchen pun intended this tops the cold hearted bastard list unbelievable had this countries morals sunk this low that the death of innocent people is so callously viewed flame off aaah daniaalson yah wanna fight fight me matthew r hamilton mhamilto mcs kent edu a k a cs physics major h ksuvxb kent edu the lawnmowerman kent state university h ksuvxb kent edu look here for future advice quotes sayings jibberish philosohy jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article apr news uit no paale stud cs uit no paal ellingsen writes in article r qsrinnc clem handheld com jim de arras writes mr roby you are a government sucking heartless bastard humans died yesterday humans who would not have died if the fbi had not taken the actions they did that is the undeniable truth the question is for how long even if the fbi had done nothing i guess the bds would have committed suicide but maybe not until hunger and thirst gave them the choice between sucide or surrender the bds was warned in beforehand about the fbi action they had the chance to surrender and get a fair trial no matter who started the fire the bds were responsible for peole dying no one else this is of course your opinion i differ greatly there can be no doubt the fbi at least shares in the blame paal ellingsen borgensvingen tlf paale stud cs uit no kvaloeysletta data dobbelt arbeid til alle jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov
talk.politics.guns	re cnn for sale i will add my voice to the hopefully growing multitudes i hereby pledge towards the purchase of cnn under the same conditions as already described i will also post this idea on the other nets i can access rime and libernet we may have to organize this ourselves so i am looking for help frank ney n zhg emt a lpva nra ila goa ccrtkba m o u s e
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors nut case panics jumps the gun on the net before getting facts straight
talk.politics.guns	blast them next time what happened in waco is not the fault of the batf if they would of had the proper equipment and personal then they could of captured the compound on the initial assault and none of this would of happened the batf needs more people better weapons and more armored transports when they meet hostile fire they should be able to use more force instead of retreating to a stand off if you are going to do a job then do it right the batf is there to protect us and they must have the proper equipment and people to do the job with the wod and the increased crime in the streets the batf is needed more now then ever if they blast away a few good fokes then that is the price we all have to pay for law and order in this country look at all the good people that died in wars to protect this great country of ours with the arms build up in waco they needed to hit that compound with mega fire power they could of gone in there blasting and killed a few women and kids but it would of been better then letting them all burn to death days later
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article aej d cmuvm bitnet aej d cmuvm bitnet writes cnn is reporting as i write this that the atf has ignited all the buildings of the branch dividian ranch near waco tx the lies from atf say holes were made in the walls and non lethal tear gas pumped in a few minutes after this started the whole thing went up all buildings are aflame no one has escaped i think it obvious that the atf used armored flame thrower vehicles to pump in unlit napalm then let the wood stove inside ignite it well actually the davidians koreshians started the fire themselves the last i heard around est eight people ran out into the feilds surrounding the compound all were captured and two admitted to setting the fire i don t buy your napalm theory at all although it would have made a great commercial for my sig why the hell would they have a wood stove burning on such a warm day flame throwers use liquid petroleum napalm is more of a gel now to further dispute your theory the diluted cs gas was inserted around if i understood correctly the place didn t start burning until around or this is murder atf murderers butchers this is genocidal mass slaughter of innocent people including children i have predicted this from the start but god it sickens me to see it happen i had hoped i was wrong i had hoped that there was still some shred of the america i grew up with and loved left alive i was wrong the nazis have won calm down kid vernon koresh s real name said himself that he would not leave that compound alive the inhabitants thereof had accepted the fact that they may very well have to kill themselves before it was all over i repeat as of this time there are no survivors there are at least eight survivors a caller on rush limbaugh today suggested that the rest may even be hiding in underground bunkers that s not such a wild idea considering their weaponry and resolve god help us all please crosspost don t let them get away with the slaughter of the children w k gorman an american in tears sheesh get over it i haven t heard read such ranting since the hindenberg burned this should have ended days ago i m glad my tax dollars have finally stopped working to pay a bunch of guys to stand around and give press conferences now they can get back to more important things like catching cigarrette smugglers troy napalm sticks to kids
talk.politics.guns	re clinton joins list of genocidal socialist leaders in article r ug d btr btr com michaelh public btr com michael hahn michaelh btr com writes pol pot s killed i ve read estimates that pol pot killed somewhere in the neighborhood of million drew betz gozer idbsu edu brought into your terminal from the free state of idaho when you outlaw rights only outlaws will have rights spook fodder fema nsa clinton gore insurrection nsc semtex neptunium terrorist cia mi mi kgb deuterium
talk.politics.guns	re blast them next time in article r l dv usenet ins cwru edu oldham ces cwru edu daniel oldham writes what happened in waco is not the fault of the batf if they would of had the proper equipment and personal then they could of captured the compound on the initial assault and none of this would of happened the batf needs more people better weapons and more armored transports when they meet hostile fire they should be able to use more force instead of retreating to a stand off if you are going to do a job then do it right the batf is there to protect us and they must have the proper equipment and people to do the job with the wod and the increased crime in the streets the batf is needed more now then ever if they blast away a few good fokes then that is the price we all have to pay for law and order in this country look at all the good people that died in wars to protect this great country of ours with the arms build up in waco they needed to hit that compound with mega fire power they could of gone in there blasting and killed a few women and kids but it would of been better then letting them all burn to death days later well it s said that people get the government they deserve don t worry you ll get yours you ll sleep much better when everyone with thoughts not on the government approved list is rounded up and executed julie disclaimer all opinions here belong to my cat and no one else
talk.politics.guns	re guns in backcountry no thanks in article netnews upenn edu egedi ahwenasa cis upenn edu dania m egedi writes in article apr csd newshost stanford edu andy sail stanford edu andy freeman writes in article apr midway uchicago edu pkgeragh gsbphd uchicago edu kevin geraghty writes wrong about the whole guns for protection mindset it ignores the why if you re not a threat you re not affected at all aha that s the part that makes me nervous too who gets to decide if i am a threat based on appearance would someone feel more threatened actions determine whether someone presents a threat and i don t carry a gun so much for people cause i tend to fade if there are any about but due to several encounters with formerly domestic dogs these critters ain t scared of folks and can get aggressive on staying at and saw someone sitting there cleaning his gun softly i backed away and hiked another miles to get out of there i ll freely admit it here i m not afraid of guns i m afraid of people that bring them into the backcountry i d count that as a fear of guns somebody having the sense to keep their weapons maintained isn t as likely to present a threat the army taught me to clean any weapons daily since they usually need it regardless of whether they ve been used you d be amazed how sweaty a holster can get or how much trail dust will get in it and i guess you d be scared of me and my former explorer post seems the advisors were national guard special forces grunts and considered it heresy to be out in the woods without a weapon course usually you wouldn t notice em they tended to avoid public scrutiny of course that may be the way to solve the solitude problem just carry a gun and display it prominently and one probably won t see most of the other hikers out there who will be hiding in the woods dania my mm goes in a hip holster mixed in with magazine pouches hold lotsa stuff in them canteens knives compasses and such not so easy to notice in the off chance i decide to be visible i prefer not to be since walking quietly away from active areas increases the number of non human type critters i see james james s cochrane when in danger or in doubt run in this space gt a prism gatech edu circles scream and shout for rent
talk.politics.guns	re blast them next time deleted because it sounds twisted with the wod and the increased crime in the streets the batf is needed more now then ever if they blast away a few good fokes then that is the price we all have to pay for law and order in this country look at all the good people that died in wars to protect this great country of ours flame thrower on well i don t want my tax dollars going to that kind of philosophy maybe if the good folks you are talking about are people like you than i might be inclined to accept it what does the batf do anyway why don t we have a bureau for militant paranoid freedom killers like yourself people like you are more dangerous than alcohol tobacco and firearms with the arms build up in waco they needed to hit that compound with mega fire power they could of gone in there blasting and killed a few women and kids but it would of been better then letting them all burn to death days later maybe we should just have nuked the whole city i mean what s a good souls anyway get real you sound like a racist i guess life isn t so precious to you do you realize that there were children killed they will never get to fall in love they won t see another sunrise no prom no first date no football baseball no nothing why doesn t some people think first before they let everyone know how narrow they are flame thrower off
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article c rynw iz news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes and i suppose the fbi also prevented them from coming out with their hands up while national tv cameras watch watch from where two miles away far enough away that whatever really happenned must be explained through the vengeful filter of a humiliated agency that said quote enough is enough scenario that is simplest and most plausible i do not generally believe in conspiracy theories that involve complicated and unlikely scenarios the fbi sent letters to martin luther king s wife insinuating that mlk was having an affair again please tell us exactly how much you trust our supposedly benevolent government the batf is by no means devoid of fault in the handling of this affair but to suggest that they may have intentionally started the fire is ludicrous i suspect that there were plenty of camerapeople willing to risk small arms fire to get some good footage these people were told to get the hell out of camera range why drew betz gozer idbsu edu brought into your terminal from the free state of idaho when you outlaw rights only outlaws will have rights spook fodder fema nsa clinton gore insurrection nsc semtex neptunium terrorist cia mi mi kgb deuterium
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article aej d cmuvm bitnet aej d cmuvm bitnet writes i will be surprised if this post makes it past the censors but here goes monday april edt murder most foul cnn is reporting as i write this that the atf has ignited all i watched the cnn report and i never heard them report that the atf started the fire they did speculate that the type of cs gas might have accidentaly started the fire the buildings of the branch dividian ranch near waco tx the lies from atf say holes were made in the walls and non lethal tear gas pumped in a few minutes after this started the whole thing went up from my understanding of the cnn report it was hours after they started all buildings are aflame no one has escaped i think it obvious that the atf used armored flame thrower vehicles to pump in unlit the track vehicle that i saw in the vicinity of the building where fire was first noticed looked more like an armored recovery vehicle the type used to tow tanks of battle fields and not an armored flame thrower vehicle napalm then let the wood stove inside ignite it as someone else has pointed out why would the stove be in use on a warm day in texas it seems to me that it would be very poor planing to hope for a wood stove to ignite the napalm when the stove would probably not be in use and i doubt that it would have taken hours to ignite it this is murder atf murderers butchers this is genocidal mass slaughter of innocent people including children i have predicted this from the start but god it sickens me to see it happen i had hoped i was wrong i had hoped that there was still some shred of the america i grew up with and loved left alive i was wrong the nazis have won right clinton is in office sorry i couldn t resist please no flames i repeat as of this time there are no survivors god help us all please crosspost don t let them get away with the slaughter of the children w k gorman an american in tears in short mr gorman i am assuming mr as a title because i don t think a woman would be stupid enough to make this post i don t know what episode of cnn you were watching but it obviously was not the same one that i was watching or your tears seamed to have blured your hearing along with your eye sight please excuse any mispelled words as i am a product of the arkansas education system which slick willie of the double bubba ticket has so greately improved during his tenour as governer of my great state taking it from th in the nation in and allowing it to drop to st how i don t know and bringing it to st and back to either th or th in sorry i can t rember the source of these numbers but they can be found michael f rhein
talk.politics.guns	re so much for infinite patience in article apr jupiter sun csd unb ca j jupiter sun csd unb ca fuller m writes so much for infinite patience i find it hard to swallow that prolonged exposure to massive amounts of and they said that the bomb dropped on move wouldn t start a fire either the real kicker though is the stated justification for the government s sudden loss of patience they wouldn t be able to rotate their teams this outcome could be foreseen a mile or two away but reno didn t even malcolm fuller surveying engineering university of new brunswick the really good part at this point we re not negotiating fbi spokesman bob ricks said at a news briefing about a half hour before the fire began we re saying come out come out with your hands up this matter is over criminal so much for billary saying we won t force the issue anybody have the wh information number figure ol bill could use a lesson from the rotc he scorned you are responsible for all that your unit troops do or fail to do want to ask him how he enjoys being responsible for violating the constitutional rights of a group resulting in the deaths of over a hundred of them plus four federal agents james james s cochrane when in danger or in doubt run in this space gt a prism gatech edu circles scream and shout for rent
talk.politics.guns	re who s next mormons and jews in article apr midway uchicago edu thf midway uchicago edu writes in article qvfik rf usenet ins cwru edu cj cleveland freenet edu john w redelfs writes now that big brother has rubbed out one minority religion in waco who is next the mormons or jews the koreshians rubbed themselves out neither mormons nor jews have a propensity for dousing themselves with kerosene so i m not particularly concerned or shall we blame jim jones on the government also be thankful that the batf standoff at least got some of the kids out before the cult committed mass suicide dont you believe that the branch davidians committed suicide for one minute i would not put it past the fbi to lob in some incendiary grenades while they feed your their story don t ever ever trust what your wonderful government tells you janet reno and the fbi have the murder of a hundred people on their hands hope they can sleep at night p vasilion kb nmv suny buffalo std disclaimers all you cult haters happy now just hope that your not next
talk.politics.guns	re blast them next time in article r l dv usenet ins cwru edu oldham ces cwru edu daniel oldham writes what happened in waco is not the fault of the batf if they would of had the proper equipment and personal then they could of captured the compound on the initial assault and none of this would of happened the batf needs more people better weapons and more armored transports when they meet hostile fire they should be able to use more force instead of retreating to a stand off if you are going to do a job then do it right the batf is there to protect us and they must have the proper equipment and people to do the job with the wod and the increased crime in the streets the batf is needed more now then ever if they blast away a few good fokes then that is the price we all have to pay for law and order in this country look at all the good people that died in wars to protect this great country of ours with the arms build up in waco they needed to hit that compound with mega fire power they could of gone in there blasting and killed a few women and kids but it would of been better then letting them all burn to death days later did you forget to put in a sarcasm flag al standard disclaimer
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi revenge in article c se e coy boi hp com dianem boi hp com diane mathews writes ahem see the war on drugs as sponsored by the bush and reagan administrations the precedent had well been set for federal agencies to step on more than a few of what people consider rights i won t make excuses for anyone but most of the damage had been done before clinton even entered the race in not to mention last year s weaver affair anyway here s how i see the waco affair i d be interested in other peoples interpretations koresh and his people were basically minding their own business some weapons violations may have been committed and i wouldn t have disapproved of prosecuting him for those violations however i think the batf was criminal for starting negotiations with a military style assault and for firing into a house where there were children and other noncombatants i don t see they couldn t just leave a token guard on the place and wait the bds out i don t approve of the tear gas approach and if it caused the fire to be started i think the fbi agent responsible should spend years in jail however if koresh s response to the tear gas was to kill everyone there i hold him largely responsible for their deaths don
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi revenge hmmm i hadn t heard about rockets atf must be escalating their tall tails anyway if they had rocket launchers and such as the press and gov claims why shouldn t they have done something why should they have done something the davidians had not attacked or even threatened anyone what possible use would a religious cult have for a rocket launcher it is not yours nor the governments right to tell others what they have a legitimate right to own also is child abuse covered by the bill of rights is child abuse now within the jurisdiction of the department of the treasury attacking citizens without due process on the strength of unsubstantiated rumors about a violation of a law which does not fall under your jurisdiction is a pretty serious breech of rights shit if people dont get what they want right away there is an instant problem clinton has only been in office for a few months give him a chance to get something done the guy had a lot of shit thrown in his lap in the beginning give him a chance to work on things a little as they say rome wasn t built in a day if he gets any more done we will really be in trouble mike
talk.politics.guns	re who s next mormons and jews hmm am i the only person that remembers masada this isn t the first time a group has committed suicide to avoid persecution capture and you seem to miss the point that the raid should never have happened in the first place i find the fbi actions too damn reminiscent of the warsaw ghetto fitting that al gore was in poland for events marking the th anniversery of that remove any references to dates and you have two raids by government troops wearing black uniforms carrying automatic weapons backed by armored vehicles against religious minorities they claim were practicing sexually deviant behavior and hoarding weapons too damn similar james ps i am not advocating the bd s i just find the whole situation too damn troubling james s cochrane when in danger or in doubt run in this space gt a prism gatech edu circles scream and shout for rent
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi revenge in rwing uucp pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes anybody for impeachment yeah me both the slickmeister and hillary s buddy janet say they re responsible i want both their resignations on my desk yesterday i also want both thier butts up on federal civil rights violations something which carries life in prison as a penalty oh and i ll contribute to arlen specter s presidential campaign for having the nads to launch the senate investigation glenn r stone glenns eas gatech edu america in distress flag upside down sos save your republic before it no longer exists
talk.politics.guns	re with friends like these l neil smith in article c d g xw undergrad math uwaterloo ca papresco undergrad math uwaterloo ca paul prescod writes in article apr sco com allanh sco com allan j heim writes look if you can figure out a reliable means of keeping guns away from bad people while not interfering with good people i think we d all be for it the problem is the methods we re using now don t do the trick don t manufacture them don t sell them don t import them japan did this it required near total isolation from the rest of the world for centuries some guns will get through but far fewer and far less people will die because of them hunting weapons could be allowed of course as long as they are big and bulky and require reloading after a few shots how many times can you shoot at the same animal anyways one assumes they are moving hunting weapons are great for extortionist sharpshooters send me money or else i ll pick you off from miles away tim starr renaissance now assistant editor freedom network news the newsletter of isil the international society for individual liberty market st san francisco ca fax compuserve com think universally act selfishly starr genie slhs udel edu
talk.politics.guns	re ban all firearms in article baece pa utkvm utk edu pa utkvm utk edu david veal writes in article c d hv dp undergrad math uwaterloo ca papresco undergrad math uwaterloo ca paul prescod writes in article hydra gatech edu gt a prism gatech edu cochrane james shpleigh writes if guns were banned and a bunch showed up in south florida it would be x easier to trace and notice then a small ripple in the huge wave of the american gun craze do they teach courses in rude in canada they don t have too canadian culture is handed down largely from the united empire loyalists who fled from the american revolution canuckleheads tend to have a cratophilic or government loving attitude towards authority paul prescod is right in line with this elitist bigotry and prejudice that all my canadian friends hate in their fellow citizens his sort of snobbish canuck have an irrational horror of american democratic armed mobs tim starr renaissance now assistant editor freedom network news the newsletter of isil the international society for individual liberty market st san francisco ca fax compuserve com think universally act selfishly starr genie slhs udel edu
talk.politics.guns	re ban all firearms in article c d c k undergrad math uwaterloo ca papresco undergrad math uwaterloo ca paul prescod writes drugs are banned please tell me when this supply will dry up drugs are easier to manufacture easier to smuggle easier to hide no comparison you sir are an ignorant fool who knows nothing about either the drug business or the gun business tim starr renaissance now assistant editor freedom network news the newsletter of isil the international society for individual liberty market st san francisco ca fax compuserve com think universally act selfishly starr genie slhs udel edu
talk.politics.guns	weird science by l neil smith posted by cathy smith for l neil smith weird science everyone knows how to tell when a politician is lying his lips move what may not be equally obvious is that there are politicians and then there are politicians and that the phrase political science is subject to more than one interpretation years ago we heard how scientists were worried that a new ice age might be coming and later on that nuclear winter smoke and dust thrown into the atmosphere by full scale international unpleasantness was a possibility something like that may even have killed the dinosaurs what we didn t hear was that no actual data supported any of this that real world events the burning of kuwaiti oil fields tended to discredit it that mostly it was propaganda meant to weaken values that made america the most successful culture in history and that the dinosaurs probably died of something like the plague when continents drifted together exposing them to new germs we miss a lot like this unless we listen closely prince william sound site of the famous oil spill and mount st helen s weren t supposed to recover from their respective disasters for at least years that turned out not to be true although you d never know it from watching network nightly news or cnn it doesn t fit their agenda to inform us that the earth is vast and resilient and that nature is rougher on herself than we could ever be but for once the media aren t entirely to blame as ignorant of science as they are of everything they trust scientists to unscrew the inscrutable the trouble is that today s scientists have agendas of their own nobody in government that wellspring of scientific wherewithal is going to offer grants to an investigator who states truthfully that there is no respectable evidence for global warming the money and power for bureaucrats and politicians lie in mass transit and they hate the automobile blamed as a major cause of the mythical crisis as a source of privacy and freedom they find intolerable the same appears true of acid rain a deliberate hoax cooked up by the environmental protection agency which hates private industrial capitalism almost as much as it does your car and foisted on real scientists through trickery which has depended on specialists in different fields not talking to each other much the list goes on always with a common disreputable thread ozone depletion for which evidence is even more suspect and contradictory than for acid rain or global warming is no more than a last desperate attempt to indict private capitalism in an era when state central planning and the command economy have failed and can only find this final withered leg to teeter on decades of anti nuclear alarmism resting on foundations of myth and panic mongering have failed to erase the fact that nuclear power is the safest cleanest most efficient source of energy known to mankind and more to the point that the greater amount of energy there is available to any individual in society the freer that individual and his society become honest studies on the effects of individual gun ownership and self defense on crime conducted by investigators who began as ideological opponents to those concepts but which show massive reductions in the latter to be the result of the former have been suppressed most recently by the california state government and what the media didn t say about recent epa discoveries on the effect of secondhand smoking is that although some harm to non smokers may have been detected it was less by an order or two of magnitude than that associated with frying bacon a couple times a week or keeping a pet bird it s enough to make you wonder whether there was ever anything to the claim that smoking causes cancer that of course is the real threat represented by politically correct science the world is a dangerous place it would be nice to know the hazards i ve never believed smoking to be a healthy practice but given a lack of credibility on the part of today s science how am i to decide what to do about it nicotine is highly addictive to that much i can attest from experience yet the stress of quitting may be riskier than to continue there isn t any way to tell thanks to the corrupting influence of government money on the scientific establishment two centuries ago the founding fathers spared us certain agonies to which every other nation in the world has been subject at one time or another by creating a legal barrier between politics and religion each time some short sighted individual or group has tried to lower the barrier most recently over the issue of abortion blood real human blood hot and smoking in the street has wound up being shed real human blood is being shed over scientific issues as people s lives are ruined through the loss to agencies like the epa of livelihood or property it may have taken a lifetime to accumulate to diseases caused by toxins associated with burning fossil fuels for electrical power or thanks to bans on things like cyclamates when they die from the effects of obesity what we need now if we hope to survive as a civilization for two more centuries is another barrier a constitutional separation of state and science including medicine knowledge is valuable real science won t languish for lack of funding the money will simply come from contributors unwilling to pay for lies and everyone will benefit l neil smith author the probability broach the crystal empire henry martyn and forthcoming pallas lever action bbs fidonet libertarian second amendment caucus nra life member my opinions are of course my own
talk.politics.guns	re constitutionality of u s c o in article qksp l transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes in article apr atlastele com brians atlastele com brian sheets writes and has no rights under the federal constitution so what i don t understand is how a statute like can be enforced on an individual so someone tell me how my government can tell me what i can or cannot possess just passing a law does not make it law sorry but i really can t figure out what you re trying to say above i guess what i am really asking like i did above how does my government who is my servent tell me the soveriegn what i can or cannot possess it would seem to me that the act of possessing a machine gun is no less criminal by definition than the act of possessing a television set i also would seem to me that it would be better to pass laws that say that if i harm or kill someone with the machine gun or the television set that there would be specific penalties for doing such everyone knows that laws are constitional until it goes to court sorry i was close not exactly no on is bound to obey an uncontitutional law and no courts are bound to enforce it am jur d sec late d sec brian sheets truck what truck support engineer o o atlas telecom inc raiders of the lost ark brians atlastele com u
talk.politics.guns	re boston gun buy back ron miller wrote when you ask the question of the authorities or sponsors of buyback programs whether they will check for stolen weapons and they answer no it s total amnesty good point about registration schemes being used only for harassment deleted i would also like to point out that this is receiving stolen property and is no different than a pawn shop owner doing the same thing myron petro nra uspsa dvc y all the opinions included in this post are my sole responsibility and are protected by the first amendment and guarnteed by the second amendment if amnesty was their concern they should pay in cash rather than moneyorder and they should check to see if the gun turned in was stolen or not this way if a gun turns out to be stolen then even if they wanted to prosecute they don t know who to prosecute since the only concern of these hci and the like people seems to be the total eradication of guns legal or illegal why should they bother to check for stolen property if they knew who the rightful owner is then they would have to return the gun and hence contrary to their intent to ban all guns
talk.politics.guns	re ax the atf in article r innajc cronkite central sun com dbernard clesun central sun com writes even if it were a capital offense the warrant was not even an arrest warrant but a search warrant in other words there was no evidence of illegal arms just enough of a suggestion to get a judge to sign a license to search for illegal evidence it s hard to know what who to believe however the letter i received from the batf in response to one i sent to bentsen said that there was a search warrant and an arrest warrant don
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi revenge in article rwing uucp pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes i am sick dismayed discouraged and ashamed of our administration anybody for impeachment i have already called senators legislators and the governor demanding that the warrants be unsealed and that all involved in this atrocity including the president attorney general and governor be suspended pending an investigation i seriously doubt however that anything will ever be done welcome to amerika remember waco who will the government decide to murder next maybe you opinions are mine i don t care if you blame the university or the state
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article qvjh innh l hp col col hp com dduff col hp com dave duff writes nut case panics jumps the gun on the net before getting facts straight i really don t understand all this i watched on satellite network feeds as perhaps people died before my eyes while the two huey s fanned the flames and the fbi stopped the firetrucks at the gate something was very wrong with that scene perhaps if i d watched rambo movies i might ve been dulled to the pain of fellow humans dying thank god i still feel i m very sorry for you who don t for you who think they got what they deserved can you really believe that even if koresh was the sadistic mad man they said he was did the others deserve his fate if in fact he was mad wasn t that even more reason to believe he duped his followers and therefore they were innocent brainwashed victims is there any scenaro that justifies all that death and if not it is clear that the deaths would not have occured if the batf has not fucked up initially and now the fbi got impaitent and pushed korech over the edge and that s if you buy the latest version of the story hook line and sinker i have believed all along that they could not let them live the embarrassment to the batf and the fbi would ve been too severe remember this was a suspicion of tax evasion warrant there were no witnesses except the fbi all information filtered through the fbi all they had to do was allow one remote controlled pool camera be installed near the building and the press could ve done their job and would ve been able to back the fbi s story with close up video while incurring no risk to the press unless they did not want the public to see something the complete lack of any other source of information other than the fbi really causes me concern sick to my stomach and getting sicker from all the government apologists jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article aej d cmuvm bitnet aej d cmuvm bitnet writes i will be surprised if this post makes it past the censors but here goes monday april edt murder most foul cnn is reporting as i write this that the atf has ignited all the buildings of the branch dividian ranch near waco tx the lies from atf say holes were made in the walls and non lethal tear gas pumped in a few minutes after this started the whole thing went up all buildings are aflame no one has escaped i think it obvious that the atf used armored flame thrower vehicles to pump in unlit napalm then let the wood stove inside ignite it this is murder atf murderers butchers this is genocidal mass slaughter of innocent people including children i have predicted this from the start but god it sickens me to see it happen i had hoped i was wrong i had hoped that there was still some shred of the america i grew up with and loved left alive i was wrong the nazis have won i repeat as of this time there are no survivors god help us all please crosspost don t let them get away with the slaughter of the children w k gorman an american in tears the latest news i saw was that two of the eight known survivors not no survivors as you so rudely put in all caps said they started the fire i won t go on with the things the wacko of waco did ted schuerzinger zed dartmouth edu this is not the secret message
talk.politics.guns	re blast them next time daniel oldham oldham ces cwru edu wrote the batf needs more people better weapons and more armored transports with the arms build up in waco they needed to hit that compound with mega fire power they could of gone in there blasting and killed a few women and kids but it would of been better then letting them all burn to death days later is this a joke the legal way to serve a search warrant is to knock on the door tossing in a grenade to serve a search warrant violates the us constitution and is hence illegal the bd complied with legal search warrants in the past i do not understand why the batf used an illegal means to serve their search warrant last february steve kao
talk.politics.guns	re my reply to ny times editorial dear member of the nra in apr husc harvard edu kim scws harvard edu john kim writes as a legal gun owner i must disagree even when i don t see eye to eye with the n r a on a particular issue they are the only national group which has effectively fought for my rights to target shoot hunt and protect myself from dangerous criminals one more time it ain t about duck hunting it ain t about lone perps on lonely streets it s about defending our rights from the government which has seen fit to ignore history and attempt once again to take them from us they will succeed if we don t do something now that s why i think the nra is a bunch of weenies because they have forgotten that fundamental fact pardon all my shouting but there seem to be a whole helluva lot of people on condition white fat dumb and happy sucking that glass teat for all they re worth wake up and smell the cordite gang they re shooting at us and it s high time we shot back at least with our keyboards my two bits glenn r stone glenns eas gatech edu fly your flags at half staff and upside down to mourn and protest the death of the bor
talk.politics.guns	re ama support brady bill in article r ainnh f tamsun tamu edu dlb tamuts tamu edu daryl biberdorf writes the following was sent to me by a friend of mine a med student it originally appeared in a medical discussion list gun control the ama expressed support for s and h r the brady handgun violence prevention act citing its strong support for the brady bill in past congresses the ama termed as particularly alarming violence associated with and stemming from the widespread and easy availability and use of firearms the ama proceeded to comment while we recognize that a waiting period of business days before a handgun purchase will not address all of the difficult problems that have made violence so prevalent in our society we believe that it is a beginning and will save lives physicians are first hand witnesses to the horrendous cost in human life being exacted by firearm violence a reasonable waiting period before the purchase of a handgun is a protection that the american people deserve letters to senator howard m metzenbaum and representative charles e schumer march i wonder if the ama has an exact listing of lives saved in tennessee california and other waiting period states david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
talk.politics.guns	re blast them next time daniel oldham oldham ces cwru edu wrote what happened in waco is not the fault of the batf if they would of had the proper equipment and personal then they could of captured the compound on the initial assault and none of this would of happened initial assault on the compound more like a wooden farm house if it burned to the ground like it did for what regardless of who started caused the fire none of this would have happened if the atf can honestly justify their initial assault and handled it properly question authority snip with the wod and the increased crime in the streets the batf is needed more now then ever if they blast away a few good fokes then that is the price we all have to pay for law and order in this country look at all the good people that died in wars to protect this great country of ours with the arms build up in waco they needed to hit that compound with show me some evidenence instead of repeating what the fbi atf told you mega fire power they could of gone in there blasting and killed a few women and kids but it would of been better then letting them all burn to death days later then i m sure you won t mind if the atf or the dea raid your house someday on a bogus informant tip so what if they killed wounded your family accidentally during the raid it s just a fair price to pay for law and order in this country right answer this question honestly before making anymore ignorant statements what is even more disturbing than out of control government agencies are citizens who allow them to be irresponsible f chiu
talk.politics.guns	re change of name in cmm thomasp holmenkollen ifi uio no thomasp ifi uio no thomas parsli writes make a new newsgroup called talk politics guns paranoid or talk politics guns they r here to take me away move all postings about waco and burn to guess where what does this censored from norway think he s doing telling us how to run the place i wanna know somebody please splain guess how norway survived the third reich give you a hint it wasn t by passive resistance the way the danes did it glenn r stone glenns eas gatech edu wearer of asbestos underoos
talk.politics.guns	re riddle me this in article apr jupiter sun csd unb ca j jupiter sun csd unb ca fuller m writes yet the fbi mouthpiece at this afternoon s press conference characterized the quantity of cs gas pumped into the building as massive and speculated that after a few hours of exposure any davidian gas masks would become useless does this sound not harmful to you hm a previous poster argued that the fact that the bd s did not rush to escape the burning building indicated that it was they and not any of the government actions that started the fire on the other hand i wonder if with a face full of massive amounts of cs i would be able to escape a burning tinder box like that ranch house assuming my best efforts cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re waco they did it masada in article c rtlj aqz usenet ucs indiana edu wwarf silver ucs indiana edu wayne j warf writes i can t see these people standing calmly around while they burned to death sorry i just can t see them choosing a death as horrible as this the story doesn t wash it ll take some convincing to get me to believe it the fbi said today that koresh had earlier intended to strap himself with explosives come over to the fbi agents and detonate but lost his nerve he lost his nerve for a quick clean death but not to roasted alive sorry don t believe it even if he was nutty as a fruitcake on ted koppel last night the ubiquitous australian woman claimed that koresh trained the women years ago how to commit suicide by swallowing cyanide or by putting a gun in their mouth with cyanide on hand why choose to roast yourself there are too many unanswered questions here cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in aej d cmuvm bitnet aej d cmuvm bitnet writes i will be surprised if this post makes it past the censors but here goes fret not you made it i have predicted this from the start but god it sickens me to see it happen i had hoped i was wrong i had hoped that there was still some shred of the america i grew up with and loved left alive i was wrong the nazis have won not while we still have our guns evil grin hey gang it s not about duck hunting or about dark alleys it s about black clad helmeted and booted troops storming houses and violating civil rights under color of law are you ready to defend your constitution glenn r stone glenns eas gatech edu
talk.politics.guns	re blast them next time in article r l dv usenet ins cwru edu oldham ces cwru edu daniel oldham writes flame bait pure and simple
talk.politics.guns	re rewording the second amendment ideas in article apr ousrvr oulu fi dfo vttoulu tko vtt fi foxvog douglas writes in article qv v j transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes in article c n gi f f ulowell ulowell edu jrutledg cs ulowell edu john lawrence rutledge writes the massive destructive power of many modern weapons makes the cost of an accidental or crimial usage of these weapons to great the weapons of mass destruction need to be in the control of the government only individual access would result in the needless deaths of millions this makes the right of the people to keep and bear many modern weapons non existant thanks for stating where you re coming from needless to say i disagree on every count you believe that individuals should have the right to own weapons of mass destruction i find it hard to believe that you would support a neighbor s right to keep nuclear weapons biological weapons and nerve gas on his her property if we cannot even agree on keeping weapons of mass destruction out of the hands of individuals can there be any hope for us i don t sign any blank checks when doug foxvog says weapons of mass destruction he means cbw and nukes when sarah brady says weapons of mass destruction she means street sweeper shotguns and semi automatic sks rifles when john lawrence rutledge says weapons of mass destruction and then immediately follows it with the us has thousands of people killed each year by handguns this number can easily be reduced by putting reasonable restrictions on them what does rutledge mean by the term cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re cnn for sale if anyone is keeping a list of the potential contributors you can put me down for under the conditions above keith emmen kde boi hp com
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article apr guinness idbsu edu betz gozer idbsu edu andrew betz writes in article c rynw iz news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes and i suppose the fbi also prevented them from coming out with their hands up while national tv cameras watch watch from where two miles away far enough away that whatever really happenned must be explained through the vengeful filter of a humiliated agency that said quote enough is enough please tell me what you think would have happened had the people come out with their hands up several weeks ago scenario that is simplest and most plausible i do not generally believe in conspiracy theories that involve complicated and unlikely scenarios the fbi sent letters to martin luther king s wife insinuating that mlk was having an affair again please tell us exactly how much you trust our supposedly benevolent government more than someone who would not release children from the compound i e more than david koresh vernon howell jesus christ i saw lengthy excerpts from an australian documentary made in that clearly showed that this was a cult i am not pleased with the batf handling of the affair i think they bungled it badly from the start but i don t think they are responsible for the fire which started in two different places the batf is by no means devoid of fault in the handling of this affair but to suggest that they may have intentionally started the fire is ludicrous i suspect that there were plenty of camerapeople willing to risk small arms fire to get some good footage these people were told to get the hell out of camera range why drew betz gozer idbsu edu brought into your terminal from the free state of idaho when you outlaw rights only outlaws will have rights spook fodder fema nsa clinton gore insurrection nsc semtex neptunium terrorist cia mi mi kgb deuterium
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in r inncsd clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com writes in article r v c i j menudo uh edu hadcrjam admin uh edu miller jimmy a writes in r poqinnc k clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com writes according to kikk radio in houston all nine survivors are either in hos pitals or in jails including the two who allegedly helped start the fires in the fbi briefing no mention was made of having the fire starters in custody which one the one yesterday or has there been another if it was yester day catch up imo of all conspiracy charges are easily explained by the simple fact that in these days of instantaneous news transmission all kinds of stuff gets said when people really just don t know what the hell s going on then the story changes once the facts are in and suddenly cries of its all a whitewash start naturally everybody wants to cover his her ass why the total isolation well it wasn t total isolation after the lawyer snuck in the first time they the fbi etc let him go back inside several times in cluding i think the day before the final assualt why not his mother why not the media damnfino i just tend to take issue with absolute statements that are ob viously wrong on their face and tend to inflame not inform the isolation was significant but not total semper fi jammer jim miller texas a m university and i don t speak for uh which is too bad because they could use the help become one with the student billing system be the student billing system power finds its way to those who take a stand stand up ordinary man rik emmet gil moore mike levine triumph
talk.politics.guns	fbi murders was re atf burns dividian jmd cube handheld com jim de arras writes i have believed all along that they could not let them live the embarrassment to the batf and the fbi would ve been too severe remember this was a suspicion of tax evasion warrant there were no witnesses except the fbi all information filtered through the fbi all they had to do was allow one remote controlled pool camera be installed near the building and the press could ve done their job and would ve been able to back the fbi s story with close up video while incurring no risk to the press unless they did not want the public to see something the complete lack of any other source of information other than the fbi really causes me concern sick to my stomach and getting sicker from all the government apologists well put jim i am as concerned about the media s complicity in this growing coverup can you imagine the media outrage the lawsuits the investigations that would emit if the government kept the media away from any other story particularly if a republican administration had been behind it what s going on here let s look beyond the initial blunder and examine what happened next i m a student of human phychology particularly in the area of psy ops because i ve found some of the techniques to be useful in business negotiations that puts me firmly in the amateur ranks this amateur knows that the first thing to do when sizing up the opponent is to do a psychological profile on him you can bet your ass the fbi had professionally done profiles on koresh koresh s behavior was emminently predictable it is typical of people who move away from civilization to be willing to fight to the death to preserve their isolation it would also be typical given koresh s religious orientation for such an individual to interpret a government assault as the apocalypse suicide is as an acceptable alternative to being consumed in the apocalypse imho the fbi knew all this and decided after days of concentrated psy ops to initiate that apocalypse i believe they chose a course of action designed specifically to push koresh over the edge while publicly appearing to be acting reasonably they knew that koresh considered the tanks to be the chariots of fire mentioned in the book of revelations they knew that sending tanks oops combat engineering vehicles obstensibly to perform gas insertions love that newspeak would push him over the edge look at some supporting evidence koresh s attorney mentioned on tv earlier today that one of koresh s major concern was the biblical role of the tanks stationed around the compound the fbi through reno on larry king last night and at the news conference this morning claimed to have listening devices in the compound if that was true they knew their actions were driving him to the brink they knew they were pushing the davidians toward mass suicide any rational and reasonable agency not interested in killing those people would at the first sign of preparations for suicide have pulled completely back and would have gotten rid of all the armor instead they continued with the gas insertion right up to the point where flames appeared the image that will remain etched in my mind is that of the tank strutting back and forth in front of the burning compound gloating over the kill let s step back and assess how this thing could have been ended without bloodshed this technique would have required a law enforcement agency interested in constitutionally enforcing the law and in the preservation of life instead of achieving a military victory and of vengence the way to have nabbed koresh was simply to have announced a pull back abandoned the assault torn down the concertina wire and removed the armor maintained covert surveillance of the compound and then exploited his ego to flush him out exploiting his ego would have been simple a simple invite or two from the tabloid talk shows to come on tv and tell how he whipped the us government would have been something he could not have resisted he could have then been nabbed when he left the compound simple clean and safe but because it would have required the fbi to execute a tactical retreat and would have deprived them of the revenge they sought it was totally out of the question not without all that testesterone floating around after all jannet reno had to show the world how big her balls are yesterday was a sad sad day for the american system i am sick to my very soul john john de armond wd oqc interested in high performance mobility performance engineering magazine tm interested in high tech and computers marietta ga send ur snail mail address to jgd dixie com perform dixie com for a free sample mag lee harvey oswald where are ya when we need ya
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article r tp em bigboote wpi edu mfrhein wpi wpi edu michael frederick rhein writes in article aej d cmuvm bitnet aej d cmuvm bitnet writes i will be surprised if this post makes it past the censors but here goes in short mr gorman i am assuming mr as a title because i don t think a woman would be stupid enough to make this post i don t know what episode of cnn you what an incrediblt sexist remark come now mike what ever possessed you to make such a un pc remark i hope all women out there reading this are as incensed as i am remember woman are just as good as men women stand up for your right to be just as stupid as men in fact insist on every oppurtunity to be even more stupid than men you ve got the right use it hey it s a slow afternoon and i really don t want to get back to that report btw mega smileys for the humor impaired karl
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article r qsrinnc clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com jim de arras writes in article c s ds j news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes i agree that they deserved a trial they had more than days to come out and get their trial they chose to keep the children with them and to stay inside they chose to stay inside even after they were tear gassed i do not find these actions rational even noriega was smart enough to give up and go for the trial he deserved mr roby you are a government sucking heartless bastard unworthy of comment humans died yesterday humans who would not have died if the fbi had not taken the actions they did that is the undeniable truth i cried for them nor would they have died if they had come out with their hands empty that is undeniable truth my heart bleeds just as much as yours for the children who were never released given days of ample opportunities to do so my heart also bleeds for people so blinded by religious devotion to not have the common sense to leave the compound when tanks came up and started dropping in tear gas early in the morning you seem to say they got what they deserved i do not think this however if they did set the fire which started in more than one place and spread very quickly then they got what they wanted and put into motion themselves i see the batf is going to be investigated by the justice dept and likely by arlen spectre and congress this is good they have bungled the affair from the start jim jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov
talk.politics.guns	re who s next mormons and jews in article r mtoinna cronkite central sun com dbernard clesun central sun com writes gordon storga writes gentleman are we also forgetting the near genocide of the native american for the barbaric act of being heathen i e a non christian by a predominantly christian government that s a little over years as i recall i d say that for the most part it was religious persecution their religion dictated their lifestyle this is a stretch in fact a great many of the persecuted indians were christian a great many it would be simpler to state the obvious that white people wanted land the indians dominated or threatened i really don t think the government cared a hill of beans about the indians religion my native american girlfriend asks if the government really doesn t care a hill of beans about our religion how come they re still busting us for it in oregon washington and a few other places you d be a christian too if the u s army marched you into church at gunpoint michael mcclary mcclary netcom com for faster response address electronic mail to michael node com
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi revenge in donbc sl ewu netcom com donb netcom com writes anyway here s how i see the waco affair i d be interested in other peoples interpretations koresh and his people were basically minding their own business some weapons violations may have been committed and i wouldn t have disapproved of prosecuting him for those violations however i think the batf was criminal for starting negotiations with a military style assault and for firing into a house where there were children and other noncombatants i don t see they couldn t just leave a token guard on the place and wait the bds out i don t approve of the tear gas approach and if it caused the fire to be started i think the fbi agent responsible should spend years in jail i think the legal term would be negligent homicide however if koresh s response to the tear gas was to kill everyone there i hold him largely responsible for their deaths well it s nice to see someone with a brain a general lack of paranoia and a willingness to put his thoughts in public i tend to agree with all you have said never assume foul motives when stupidity will do jim s corrolary to occam s razor semper fi jammer jim miller texas a m university and i don t speak for uh which is too bad because they could use the help become one with the student billing system be the student billing system power finds its way to those who take a stand stand up ordinary man rik emmet gil moore mike levine triumph
talk.politics.guns	letter to david skaggs here is a letter i sent to david skaggs dem co before anybody says something yes the letter is a bit sharp in tone i have been writting reasonable and polite letters to him for years and all i get in return in the hci party line since he already is nra f rated i don t think that upsetting him will harm the cause sorry if you disagree but recent events in texas really have me pissed april representative skaggs recently i wrote to you regarding my outrage over the tactics used by the bureau of alcohol tobacco and firearms batf in texas in your response you stated that events in texas underscore the need for stricter gun control legislation to keep guns out of the hand of groups such as the branch davidians my question to you is what grounds would you use to deny them access to firearms best i can tell this statement underscores your apparent total ignorance of the subject and highlights your personal bias against firearms i say this because there are only two possible paths of gun control which you could have been referencing either you were talking about their access to semi automatics firearms in this case i should point out that semi automatic firearms are legal in most areas of this country including texas and colorado in addition the members of the cult have never been convicted of any crimes which would deny them the ability to purchase these weapons so under what grounds would you deny them these guns their religion the fact they they live in a large group alone by themselves because you consider them to be a cult maybe i consider your church to be a cult this line of reasoning by you borders on the concept of thought crimes you and pat robertson should really get along you were referring to the alleged fully automatic weapons possessed by the cult under current us law fully automatic weapons have been covered by some of the strictest gun control laws in this nation so if david koresh illegally possessed them he would have had to circumvent some of the strictest laws we have how will more laws help by the way it has been reported that david koresh possessed a federal firearms license which would have permitted him to possess fully automatic weapons if true the people who perished monday in the fire died so that the federal government could collect a couple hundred dollars in taxes on guns david koresh didn t declare i have heard claims that they were stockpiling weapons yet considering the number of people in the complex even weapons would not have been out of line with gun ownership statistics for all of texas what s next a siege of dallas ft worth for alleged stockpiling face it david skaggs you have voted for virtually every gun control law that has passed through congress yet you claim that you are only for reasonable restrictions bull handgun control inc is struggling to maintain paid members while the nra has just exceeded members they are still growing at a rate of new members per day driving around your district i see nra stickers every day in eight plus years of living here i have only seen one hci bumper sticker when you vote for your reasonable gun control laws are you really representing your district or are you representing sarah bradys thank you william j vojak april representative skaggs recently i wrote to you regarding my outrage over the tactics used by the bureau of alcohol tobacco and firearms batf in texas in your response you stated that events in texas underscore the need for stricter gun control legislation to keep guns out of the hand of groups such as the branch davidians my question to you is what grounds would you use to deny them access to firearms best i can tell this statement underscores your apparent total ignorance of the subject and highlights your personal bias against firearms i say this because there are only two possible paths of gun control which you could have been referencing either you were talking about their access to semi automatics firearms in this case i should point out that semi automatic firearms are legal in most areas of this country including texas and colorado in addition the members of the cult have never been convicted of any crimes which would deny them the ability to purchase these weapons so under what grounds would you deny them these guns their religion the fact they they live in a large group alone by themselves because you consider them to be a cult maybe i consider your church to be a cult this line of reasoning by you borders on the concept of thought crimes you and pat robertson should really get along you were referring to the alleged fully automatic weapons possessed by the cult under current us law fully automatic weapons have been covered by some of the strictest gun control laws in this nation so if david koresh illegally possessed them he would have had to circumvent some of the strictest laws we have how will more laws help by the way it has been reported that david koresh possessed a federal firearms license which would have permitted him to possess fully automatic weapons if true the people who perished monday in the fire died so that the federal government could collect a couple hundred dollars in taxes on guns david koresh didn t declare i have heard claims that they were stockpiling weapons yet considering the number of people in the complex even weapons would not have been out of line with gun ownership statistics for all of texas what s next a siege of dallas ft worth for alleged stockpiling face it david skaggs you have voted for virtually every gun control law that has passed through congress yet you claim that you are only for reasonable restrictions bull handgun control inc is struggling to maintain paid members while the nra has just exceeded members they are still growing at a rate of new members per day driving around your district i see nra stickers every day in eight plus years of living here i have only seen one hci bumper sticker when you vote for your reasonable gun control laws are you really representing your district or are you representing sarah bradys thank you william j vojak bill vojak vojak icebucket stortek com nra ila colorado firearms coalition the cbs nightly propaganda with dan rather rather not the cbs nightly propaganda with dan rather rather biased
talk.politics.guns	randy weaver trial update day note these trial updates are summarized from reports in the idaho statesman and the local nbc affiliate television station ktvb channel randy weaver kevin harris trial update day monday april was the fifth day of the trial synopsis government informant kenneth fadeley testified that randy weaver sold him two shotguns in violation of the national firearms act of u s district court judge edward lodge asks jurors not to hear accounts of the waco fire because of possible influences on the weaver harris case the testimony of fbi special agent greg rampton apparently ended without further incident as it was mentioned neither by ktvb nor the idaho statesman the day was highlighted by the testimony of kenneth fadeley who had been posing as an outlaw biker and illegal guns person named gus magiosono fadeley testified that he was acting as an informant for the bureau of alcohol tobacco and firearms in his dealings with randy weaver fadeley began by stating that he had met weaver in at an aryan nations summer conference in hayden lake idaho the two then met again october note the huge separation in time at a restaurant in sandpoint idaho to begin a weapons transaction he stated that weaver had said he felt like he weaver was being prepared to do something dangerous for the white cause the two later met october behind the restaurant and later went to a city park to make the sale during this second meeting fadeley was wearing a small recording device to tape the conversation weaver allegedly showed him an h r gauge shotgun with a inch barrel and an overall length of inches he additionally showed a remington gauge shotgun with a inch barrel and an overall length of inches nfa requires minimums of inches for barrel length and an overall length of inches on tape weaver is reported to have said that he could perform better work once his machine shop is set up the two then discuss the possibility of future sales fadeley then counts out three hundred dollars for the two guns and promises the balance of one hundred fifty dollars when they next meet note that the atf could have simply arrested him here why did they wait until january over a year later to arrest him this is not explained the next meeting took place on nov fadeley stated that his source had only come up with one hundred dollars instead of the one hundred fifty he d promised at this point weaver suspected he was dealing with an informant i had a guy in spokane tell me you were bad fadeley managed to convince weaver otherwise the idaho statesman states explicitly that three tapes were made of conversations with randy weaver thus each of these meetings must have been recorded however the statesman also reported that a tape of a telephone conversation involving vicki weaver randy weaver s wife was played to the court there must have also been phone taps these tapes were played to the court via both headphones and loudspeakers under the objections of gerry spence weaver s attorney spence said to a ktvb reporter that he wanted to make sure that the government proved its case if it has a case at all according to the rules randy weaver tore off his headphones and wept when he heard his wife s voice on the tape u s district court judge edward lodge asked jurors not to hear accounts of the waco fire because of possible influences on the weaver harris case exactly how such information could affect this trial is not explained other notes sunday evening there was a report on ktvb concerning kevin harris unnamed agents within the fbi admit that they are surprised that kevin harris is still alive first they were surprised that he survived the initial gunshot wound s sustained in the initial firefight at the y junction later when randy weaver was struck by sniper fire the sniper had reported that harris had been struck not weaver finally there was a report that the fbi agent who killed vicki weaver believed he was aiming at kevin harris instead this is what was reported critics are charging that the fbi was blatantly trying to eliminate the only non government witness to the deaths of samuel weaver and deputy marshal william degan some local people believe that harris s survival is simply due to divine intervention tuesday april will be the sixth day of the trial kenneth fadeley s testimony is scheduled to continue
talk.politics.guns	clipper chip i thought that the clipper chip that was posted to t p g sorry i lost the original post was a joke i really did i didn t believe it for a second but on the way to work this morning i heard about it on npr this scares me almost as much as the doublespeak emanating from the fbi and batf in waco paul eric stoufflet columbia presbyterian medical center internet pes cunixf cc columbia edu all opinions are my own
talk.politics.guns	re die koresh die in article r h q a umcc umcc umich edu tim umcc umcc umich edu tim tyler writes i was hoping that however the situation was resolved the property would remain intact so the gov t could sell it to help pay for the hundreds of thousands of dollars of expenses incurred having to babysit krazy koresh his flock of sheep in some south american countries after political undesirables disappeared the family would get a notice of death and a bill for the disposal of the body you apparently think that would be a good idea the federal government initiated this action against koresh and his followers surrounded them for days engaged in psychological warfare used heavy military equipment against us citizens on us soil and now that the compound caught fire while they were pumping in cs gas after knocking holes in the building disavows all responsibility big brother is not always right paul eric stoufflet columbia presbyterian medical center internet pes cunixf cc columbia edu all opinions are my own
talk.politics.guns	re ax the atf in article donbc sl f i netcom com donb netcom com don baldwin writes it s hard to know what who to believe however the letter i received from the batf in response to one i sent to bentsen said that there was a search warrant and an arrest warrant check again you may find that the arrest warrant was issued after the first firefight cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re blast them next time in article r l dv usenet ins cwru edu oldham ces cwru edu daniel oldham writes what happened in waco is not the fault of the batf if they would of had the proper equipment and personal then they could of captured the compound on the initial assault and none of this would of happened the batf needs more people better weapons and more armored transports when they meet hostile fire they should be able to use more force instead of retreating to a stand off if you are going to do a job then do it right the batf is there to protect us and they must have the proper equipment and people to do the job with the wod and the increased crime in the streets the batf is needed more now then ever if they blast away a few good fokes then that is the price we all have to pay for law and order in this country look at all the good people that died in wars to protect this great country of ours with the arms build up in waco they needed to hit that compound with mega fire power they could of gone in there blasting and killed a few women and kids but it would of been better then letting them all burn to death days later i hope that you are in the way of the noble federal enforcers and are blown away accidently by the governments goons you would cheer the death to childern this is the sort of person who served as a death camp guard rod anderson n nzo the only acceptable substitute boulder co for brains is silence rcanders nyx cs du edu solomon short satellite n nzo on ao
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article kevin apr axon usa kevin axon usa kevin vanhorn writes in article c rpoj ijv news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes two of the nine who escaped the compound said the fire was deliberately set by cult members correction the fbi says that two of the nine who escaped said the fire was deliberately set by cult members since the press was kept miles away we have absolutely no independent verification of any of the government s claims in this matter moreover the batf has admitted having agents in the compound and as far as i have been able to ascertain those agents were still in the compound when the first shots were fired for all we know these two people may be the agents who would certainly be unlikely to stay around and cook with the faithful assuming the two people in question were even in the compound at all maybe i sound paranoid but i watched janet reno last night harping on how much david koresh was a big bad child abuser and i kept wondering why she much less batf wanted us to infer that she had any jurisdiction over such accusations in the first place i m positive that the sealed warrant is not for child abuse what was it for peobably weapons violations janet reno didn t say word one last night about weapons violations why because she knows that such a case is no longer believable cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article apr mcs kent edu mhamilto nimitz mcs kent edu the lawnmowerman writes this is genocidal mass slaughter of innocent people including children is this guy serious if he would ever really pay attention to the news oops i forgot that the media for the most part loves to jump right on top of a story before all the facts are known as well as to manipulate what we see and thus what we believe besides a majority of these children were children that he was supposed to have been the father of this then makes them bastard children to a sacraligious zeloit sp oh then i guess that shooting those kind of babies is all right you sick bastard cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article r tp em bigboote wpi edu mfrhein wpi wpi edu michael frederick rhein writes napalm then let the wood stove inside ignite it as someone else has pointed out why would the stove be in use on a warm day in texas do you eat all your food cold cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	incompetent law enforcement can kill ever since the siege at waco started the fbi spokesman has been stressing how unstable and paranoid david koresh was he stressed how likely it was the the branch davidians would commit mass suicide he was concerned with the safety of the children what did the fbi do to defuse the situation did they try to reassure koresh did the fbi offer medical assistance to the bd did the fbi offer them a supply of water when the bd pump stoped working did the permit koresh to communicate with anyone outside the compound what the fbi did was harass the branch davidians as much as possible they kept powerful lights shining on the compound shut off their electrical power put their pump out of action assaulted their ears with loud noise cut off their communication with the outside and kept limiting their permitter the stated goal was to put pressure on david koresh was the fbi attempting to get koresh to surrender or were they hoping to get koresh so mad that he and some of his followers would attack the the tanks it appears that the tactics employed by the fbi did drive koresh over the edge the blame for the deaths should be shared by both the federal experts whose tactics drove koresh over the edge and the fools at the atf who planed the raid stupidity and incompetence of the batf and the fbi leadership have resulted in the needless death of innocent people if every thing had gone as planned people would be alive today instead the atf screwed up and caused the death of incompetent law enforcement can kill you rod anderson n nzo the only acceptable substitute boulder co for brains is silence rcanders nyx cs du edu solomon short satellite n nzo on ao
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article mvpc rp n ts netcom com mvp netcom com mike van pelt writes in article bb a pa utkvm utk edu pa utkvm utk edu david veal writes be cute if koresh hit the trail maybe he was bodily assumed into heaven wouldn t that just make ag reno s day snort i sorta doubt it however no bodies by the time this message gets out they ll doubtless have found bunches but wouldn t it be interesting if they had a tunnel and are long gone if they hadn t killed the atf people in the original raid i think i would laugh my ass off actually to be honest i still might ryan
talk.politics.guns	re some more about gun control in article apr beaver cs washington edu graham cs washington edu stephen graham writes it s worth noting that us vs miller sustained miller s conviction of possession of an illegal firearm noting that a sawed off shotgun was not a proper militia weapon therefore us vs miller supports limited government regulation of firearms then it also supports basing such regulations on ignorance miller had disappeared and nobody bothered to present his side to the supreme court in particular that sawed off shotguns were used in the world war i trenches and in other tight spots ever since guns had been invented would you turn one down if you had to clean an alley in e st louis vegetarians kill too
talk.politics.guns	re blast them next time in article r l dv usenet ins cwru edu oldham ces cwru edu daniel oldham writes the batf needs more people better weapons and more armored transports when they meet hostile fire they should be able to use more force instead of retreating to a stand off if you are going to do a job then do it right the batf is there to protect us and they must have the proper equipment and people to do the job the batf is there to collect taxes not to protect your sorry ass or mine with the wod and the increased crime in the streets the batf is needed more now then ever if they blast away a few good fokes then that is the price we all have to pay for law and order in this country all flame bait of course if you really want to be flame bait send me your address and i ll tell the batf about those automatic weapons you have stockpiled you ll be warm in no time cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	will cs burn or explode the fbi released large amounts of cs tear gas into the compound in waco cs tear gas is a fine power is cs inflammable grain dust suspended in air can form an explosive mixture will cs suspended in air form an explosive mix could large quantities of cs have fueled the rapid spread of fire in the compound please note i am directing all followups to talk politics guns rod anderson n nzo the only acceptable substitute boulder co for brains is silence rcanders nyx cs du edu solomon short satellite n nzo on ao
talk.politics.guns	re blast them next time and we thought the unfortunate people in the branch dividians were brainwashed they don t hold a candle to this guy d d wq b daniel oldham oldham ces cwru edu wrote what happened in waco is not the fault of the batf if they would of had the proper equipment and personal then they could of captured the compound on the initial assault and none of this would of happened the batf needs more people better weapons and more armored transports when they meet hostile fire they should be able to use more force instead of retreating to a stand off if you are going to do a job then do it right the batf is there to protect us and they must have the proper equipment and people to do the job with the wod and the increased crime in the streets the batf is needed more now then ever if they blast away a few good fokes then that is the price we all have to pay for law and order in this country look at all the good people that died in wars to protect this great country of ours with the arms build up in waco they needed to hit that compound with mega fire power they could of gone in there blasting and killed a few women and kids but it would of been better then letting them all burn to death days later
talk.politics.guns	fbi director s statement on waco standoff in the interests of completeness i thought readers of these newsgroups would want to see fbi director william sessions statement as released by the fbi press office fbi director s statement on waco standoff to national desk contact federal bureau of investigation press office washington april the following is a statement by fbi director william s sessions regarding the branch davidian incident in waco texas i had hoped to be making a very different statement this evening after very careful planning and extensive preparation we all thought that today s efforts by the fbi to bring the branch davidians out of their compound would result in the peaceful resolution of the stand off or at least meaningful negotiation instead we are faced with devastation and death however i have no question that our plan was correct and was conducted with extreme professionalism and care i applaud the restraint shown by agents in the face of life threatening gunfire and i thank them for risking their lives to try to end this peacefully i have only the greatest admiration for the courage and professionalism of all involved
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article aej d cmuvm bitnet aej d cmuvm bitnet writes i will be surprised if this post makes it past the censors but here goes monday april edt murder most foul cnn is reporting as i write this that the atf has ignited all the buildings of the branch dividian ranch near waco tx the lies from atf say holes were made in the walls and non lethal tear gas pumped in a few minutes after this started the whole thing went up all buildings are aflame no one has escaped i think it obvious that the atf used armored flame thrower vehicles to pump in unlit napalm then let the wood stove inside ignite it actually if a few minutes translates into hours you have it right but you and i guess your single source news agency cnn failed to mention the davidians pouring kerosene all over and lighting it in plain view this is murder well small scale jim jones type suicide with fire instead of kool aid atf murderers butchers sorry guy you got it wrong atf was pumping tear gas into the compound the branch davidians going along with their apocolyptic faith set their own compound on fire killing all but or so no children survived this is genocidal mass slaughter of innocent people including children self slaughter anyway i pity the children who were to young to be able to make a conscious choice i have predicted this from the start but god it sickens me to see it happen i had hoped i was wrong i had hoped that there was still some shred of the america i grew up with and loved left alive i was wrong the nazis have won you are wrong thank goodness i would suggest however that you take a deep breath and wait minutes or so before posting also make sure your facts are correct before making your allegations sp i repeat as of this time there are no survivors you repeated wrong there were god help us all god help the branch davidians please crosspost don t let them get away with the slaughter of the children no don t there is way too much of this crap being crossposted all over creation as it is personal opinions why brent irvine yes what did you think irvine uxh cso uiuc edu they were
talk.politics.guns	riddle me something else on the other hand i wonder if with a face full of massive amounts of cs i would be able to escape a burning tinder box like that ranch house assuming my best efforts what ever happened to the adobe fortress i kept hearing about i thought this was a cult stronghold if the kgbatf knew it was a tinderbox why didn t they just have all the talking heads line up and start huffin and puffin random
talk.politics.guns	re riddle me this in article apr jupiter sun csd unb ca j jupiter sun csd unb ca fuller m writes does a not harmful gassing mean that you can with a little willpower stay inside indefinitely without suffering any serious health problems if so why was cs often employed against tunnels in vietnam what is the difference anyway cs tear gas was used in vietnam because it makes you wretch so hard that your stomach comes out thru your throat well not quite that bad but you can t really do much to defend yourself while you are blowing cookies chuck harris wa uqv chuck eng umd edu
talk.politics.guns	re die koresh die the explanations of federal law enforcement officials about what happened in waco is just another example of the survivors writing the history books to put themselves in the best of a bad light dave feustel n myi feustel netcom com i m beginning to look forward to reaching the allocation of taxes to pay for the interest on the national debt at that point the federal government will be will go out of business for lack of funds
talk.politics.guns	the cold war who really won if one reasons that the united states of america at one time represented and protected freedom individual liberty and personal responsibility and i do in fact think that this is true and that totalitarianism absolute government control and tyranny represents freedom s opposite which it does did the usa really win the cold war standard disclaimers always apply graham k glover unmutual
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article apr guinness idbsu edu betz gozer idbsu edu andrew betz writes in article c sou lnb news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes watch from where two miles away far enough away that whatever really happenned must be explained through the vengeful filter of a humiliated agency that said quote enough is enough please tell me what you think would have happened had the people come out with their hands up several weeks ago no answer you didn t answer the question the fbi took people out of camera range it is thus possible that they were engaging in questionable activities i do not feel like the cameras were out of range cameras watched the first confrontation cameras watched the banners cmaeras watched the final confrontation with tanks cameras watched the fire when weren t cameras able to watch when would cameras be unable to watch people coming out with their hands up as to your question please tell me what you think would have happened had the atf goon squad knocked and asked politely several weeks ago as opposed to playing rambo with a t v crew in tow well that is what batf should have done either koresh would have gone peaceably as he has done in the past or perhaps it was already too close to the apocalypse in his own mind it is hard to predict the actions of a leader who would not release the children when most rational people would now will you answer my question up top drew betz gozer idbsu edu brought into your terminal from the free state of idaho when you outlaw rights only outlaws will have rights spook fodder fema nsa clinton gore insurrection nsc semtex neptunium terrorist cia mi mi kgb deuterium
talk.politics.guns	re statement to everyone on t p g in article apr csd newshost stanford edu andy sail stanford edu andy freeman says clue kratz position isn t a defense against inaccuracy i oppose gun control because it doesn t work if it did i d support it in fact i supported gun control before i did my homework there s no demand for pro gun people who don t know what they re talking about in fact they d be much better off if they didn t say anything and why is this freeman even if a pro gun person doesn t know what they are talking about there is always the possibility that they will learn a thing or two i am and will continue to post even if people get angry with what i have to say i have several good sources of material now that i know where to look so calm down there s lots of information flowing on tpg for those interested in learning one can participate in those discussions without ranting inaccurately failure to do so has consequences ah freeman seems to forget from my statement that i am learning i have also asked several of the not so hostile folks on this group for sources of information to read do you think freeman that maybe this means i am interested in learning i think it does because as you said people who don t know anything won t be good for the pro gun cause another good habit to get into is to go read only for a while to take the time to figure out how things work another good habit to get into is to realize that not everyone is you freeman and accept mistakes sure maybe it could have been some type of misinformation being slung by some anti gun nut but it wasn t i made my statement to inform everyone of this and everyone who replied said don t worry about it but also to learn as much as you can they accepted my mistake and gave me sources of information and told me to read as much as possible i have read several posts of yours and have found them informative why don t you give me the same chance andy jason
talk.politics.guns	re guns gone good riddance jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes you are loosing stuff deleted avoid situations which encourage criminals then you will be as safe as possible such as it is really how do you avoid situations which encourage criminals i d really like to know would you say prohibit female college students from riding their bicycles near the university during the daytime sounds a bit drastic doesn t it especially when the university is locatd in a nice residential area a friend of mine was attacked and nearly raped in just this situation the police didn t feel she was in a situation which encouraged criminals what do you think should we just tell her that it was her fault for daring to ride a bicycle in the middle of the day that she didn t avoid a situation that encouraged criminals if that s the case then we d all better put bars on our doors and windows and pray for a police state to keep us all safe crime happens in all situations there are no defined areas that criminals avoid larry sacks advanced micro devices lsacks angelo amd com
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article c sv hjy news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu brent irvine writes in article r j n t transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes in article r tp em bigboote wpi edu mfrhein wpi wpi edu michael frederick rhein writes napalm then let the wood stove inside ignite it as someone else has pointed out why would the stove be in use on a warm day in texas do you eat all your food cold ever hear of electric ovens or microwaves very popular electric stoves outside metro areas especially brent the feds turned off the bd s electricity a couple of weeks ago perhaps you haven t been paying attention to the radio tv or newspapers though some things are too important not to give away to everybody else and have none left for yourself dieter the car salesman
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article r rad rl transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes in article c s ds j news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes the original question was about who started the fire and whether the madmen were inside or outside the compound to which i replied on the possible sanity level of those inside and outside according to an australian documentary made in the year before the stand off began koresh and his followers all believed he was christ koresh had sex with children and women married to other men in the compound these were the perfect children resulting from the great seed of his magnified horn ex members describe him in ways not dissimilar to the way jim jones has been described point noted have you submitted your faith and sex life for batf clearance better hurry i believe the deadline was april i paid my taxes there was no reference to sex or religion on the form the comments above and below were meant to address who might be unstable enough to keep children in a building with tear gas or start a fire fbi agents have to pass rigorous psychological examinations and background checks plus those in charge will undoubtedly have to explain their decisions in great detail to congress why would the fbi want to fulfill koresh s own prophecy and nevertheless they hit all their marks and read all the scripted lines well it sure beats the hell out of me maybe thoreau had a clue when he said it is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious i agree that the batf handled the affair badly two of the nine who escaped the compound said the fire was deliberately set by cult members correction the fbi said that two of the cult members said this so far no one else has been able to talk to them so when they talk to the news reporters directly and relate the same details will you believe them believe them i won t even recognize them and neither will anyone else who doesn t know them personally do you believe they would put impostors before the national tv cameras at this point we are getting conflicting reports from the survivors best wait til more light is shed upon them of course this is no good if you believe in eternal darkness cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article lt keoinn v appserv eng sun com fiddler concertina eng sun com steve hix writes in article c siaj ks news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes why didn t they release the children weeks ago it would have been inconsistent behavior for them to have done so some people believe that there is more to life than the physical requirements these folks believed that the generally held standards of the surrounding community heck most of the world were morally wrong and letting the children be abandoned to this godless unbelieving culture would be condeming them to eternal loss and separation from god by their standards letting the children go would be abandoning them to a fate literally worse than death the fbi and batf and media people working on the issue i suspect just couldn t get their heads into a similar enough to say nothing of identical mode of thinking to realize what they were doing physically there was no reason why the bd s shouldn t have given up and come out a long time ago from the point of view of the bd s they were up against the wall and had nowhere to go at all they apparently really did love their kids too much to abandon them to a godless bunch of outsiders although the end result was horribly twisted i didn t say the bd s were right i just said that that s the way they perceived it koresh was a nutcase and a bunch of other people paid for that and the fbi and batf miscalculated and misunderstood what was going on from the word go very likely possible reminds me of the movie the rapture some things are too important not to give away to everybody else and have none left for yourself dieter the car salesman
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today it s truly unfortunate that we don t have the japanese tradition of hari kari for public officials to salvage some tatters of honor after they commit offenses against humanity like were perpetrated in waco texas today dave feustel n myi feustel netcom com i m beginning to look forward to reaching the allocation of taxes to pay for the interest on the national debt at that point the federal government will be will go out of business for lack of funds
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors brent irvine irvine uxh cso uiuc edu writes cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes mfrhein wpi wpi edu michael frederick rhein writes napalm then let the wood stove inside ignite it as someone else has pointed out why would the stove be in use on a warm day in texas do you eat all your food cold ever hear of electric ovens or microwaves very popular electric stoves outside metro areas especially oh i see electricity is a natural right our wonderful government would never cut off the power to the people they were besieging are you really this dumb or just acting like it for the sake of argument jason true love is better than anything except cough drops the princess bride book by william goldman steiner jupiter cse utoledo edu
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors brent irvine irvine uxh cso uiuc edu wrote failed to mention the davidians pouring kerosene all over and lighting it in plain view brent i m still waiting to see if there are any evidence of how the fire got started so i m not going to tell you who did it as far as you keep talking about the davidians pouring kerosene all over stop and think for a second if it is possible the stove or lamp was knocked over and started a fire and the davidians were pouring water on it wrong solution but i doubt i can do much better in their states of mind to try to put it out by the way just how far where you standing from the davidians when you saw them setting the place on fire oh in case you are new in town microwave ovens doesn t work very well when there s no electricty get some facts before you post next time f chiu
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article c sv hjy news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu brent irvine writes napalm then let the wood stove inside ignite it as someone else has pointed out why would the stove be in use on a warm day in texas do you eat all your food cold ever hear of electric ovens or microwaves very popular electric stoves outside metro areas especially microwaves don t work very well with no electricity mr engineer personal opinions why brent irvine yes what did you think irvine uxh cso uiuc edu they were jeff strait strait uicsl csl uiuc edu university of illinois phone if you ladies leave this island if you survive basic recruit training you will be a weapon a minister of death praying for war
talk.politics.guns	re who s next mormons and jews in article apr midway uchicago edu thf midway uchicago edu writes in article qvfik rf usenet ins cwru edu cj cleveland freenet edu john w redelfs writes now that big brother has rubbed out one minority religion in waco who is next the mormons or jews the koreshians rubbed themselves out neither mormons nor jews have a propensity for dousing themselves with kerosene so i m not particularly concerned or shall we blame jim jones on the government also let s see if i have this straight a law is created that says you can not have a automatic weapon and therefore it s ok for the government to use any level of force to enforce that law doesn t matter if the entire population of the planet is destroyed as long as that law is obeyed do i read you correctly
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article c sv hjy news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu brent irvine writes as someone else has pointed out why would the stove be in use on a warm day in texas do you eat all your food cold ever hear of electric ovens or microwaves very popular electric stoves outside metro areas especially and they work especially well when the feds have cut off your utilities cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article c sv hjy news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu brent irvine writes in article r j n t transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes in article r tp em bigboote wpi edu mfrhein wpi wpi edu michael frederick rhein writes napalm then let the wood stove inside ignite it as someone else has pointed out why would the stove be in use on a warm day in texas do you eat all your food cold ever hear of electric ovens or microwaves very popular electric stoves outside metro areas especially brent shows his ignorance once again power had been cut for weeks and he s never lived in a rural area if he thinks electric stoves have favor there they stop working when the power fails and power restoration come much slower in the country than the city lp gas stoves and ovens are very much prefered personal opinions why brent irvine yes what did you think irvine uxh cso uiuc edu they were jim jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article c sou lnb news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes in article apr guinness idbsu edu betz gozer idbsu edu andrew betz writes in article c rynw iz news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes and i suppose the fbi also prevented them from coming out with their hands up while national tv cameras watch watch from where two miles away far enough away that whatever really happenned must be explained through the vengeful filter of a humiliated agency that said quote enough is enough please tell me what you think would have happened had the people come out with their hands up several weeks ago it didn t happen scenario that is simplest and most plausible i do not generally believe in conspiracy theories that involve complicated and unlikely scenarios the fbi sent letters to martin luther king s wife insinuating that mlk was having an affair again please tell us exactly how much you trust our supposedly benevolent government more than someone who would not release children from the compound obviously you are an authority worshiper i e more than david koresh vernon howell jesus christ i saw lengthy excerpts from an australian documentary made in that clearly showed that this was a cult give me a camera and time with you and i can present excerpts that show you to be a cult leader guarenteed you should at least view the whole documentary before you claim it as a source i am not pleased with the batf handling of the affair i think they bungled it badly from the start but i don t think they are responsible for the fire which started in two different places two places eh you saw this or did the wonderful fbi tell you this i saw one place the batf is by no means devoid of fault in the handling of this affair but to suggest that they may have intentionally started the fire is ludicrous i suspect that there were plenty of camerapeople willing to risk small arms fire to get some good footage these people were told to get the hell out of camera range why couldn t answer this one eh this is the most important question of all it is the root cause of all the other suspicion drew betz gozer idbsu edu brought into your terminal from the free state of idaho when you outlaw rights only outlaws will have rights spook fodder fema nsa clinton gore insurrection nsc semtex neptunium terrorist cia mi mi kgb deuterium jim jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov
talk.politics.guns	re the pill for deer no hunting in article qk jm sh transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes in article apr gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes why are good neighborhoods good it isn t because every person is armed to the teeth it is because of attitude and cooperation in the good neighborhoods the residents make themselves aware of their neighbors and notice when strangers are lurking around good neighborhoods form groups like crime watch to increase this effect and the relative effectiveness of the police when hostiles are arrested the good neighbors step up and say that s the one officer he was robbing mr jones house sometimes this works sometimes it just lands your good neighbors on the dance card for the next wave of drive bys someone here once told a story about la gangs moving into phoenix i ve misplaced the here a a copy cdt newsgroups talk politics guns ou politics path dg rtp psinntp uunet sun barr ames haven umd edu darwin sura net wupost csus edu netcom com mvp from mvp netcom com mike van pelt subject the difference an armed civilian population makes message id y n tc mvp netcom com date thu sep gmt organization netcom online communication services guest references swood vela lines along the lines of the armed citizen here s a story that some of you may find amusing it s a story about arizona house hunting from leslie fish musician and author one of the reasons i m planning to move to arizona is that despite its lousy economy way race problems simmering religious problems and hopelessly bad government arizona has one of the lowest violent crime rates in the country is it just coincidence that arizona is also one of the few remaining no gun control states in the country well consider this funny story last time i was in phoenix staying with liz burnham i did some checking on the local real estate market that s when i discovered that with my income as provable by my tax returns i can qualify for every low income housing loan in the book with the exception of va and i came across an astonishing ad in the local market paper it offered a three bedroom house in the phoenix area for are you ready for this all of no money down per month total payments christ on a harley davidson i called up the real estate office making this offer made it clear that i was only checking the local market and asked about that house were the walls roof and foundation structurally sound yes were the plumbing and electrical systems functional and up to code yes did the air conditioning system an absolute necessity in phoenix work yes again okay so what was wrong with the house well it needed lots of plastering painting yard work and some patching of the roof and yes low interest repair loans were available okay sez i if that s all that s wrong with it just why are you selling a bedroom house for all of well squirms the agent it s in kind of a bad neighborhood how bad sez i remembering some of the neighborhoods i ve seen in chicago and oakland worst in the city the agent sighs and then he told me this amazing story every few years it seems the big vice gangs in los angeles notice that there s no gang presence in phoenix which is just a quick hour drive from la and get the idea of setting up a subsidiary there well a couple years ago the colonizing force came to this neighborhood it being poor and spanish they figured they could move right in and take over bought this house and started operations unfortunately for them the neighbors not only didn t like this they didn t care for whores trotting up and down their streets all night pimps soliciting their kids dope deals on the corners in broad daylight and so on they weren t afraid to do something about it the neighbors called the cops for some reason the phoenix police are remarkably honest capable polite and prompt and the cops promptly came and swept up all the whores pimps and pushers off the street and away to jail the remaining gang members decided to retaliate in the fashion they usually use in la they got the complainant s name and address off the court records and did a drive by shooting at his house well this wasn t los angeles the moment the neighbors heard the first gunshots fired they all ran out their front doors with their own guns rifles shotguns pistols everything and shot back the car didn t make it to the end of the block it coasted to a stop riddled with more holes than the famous bonnie and clyde getaway car which i ve seen it s on display in a casino in a casino in las vegas the gas tank and fuel lines had been ruptured so the car caught fire the neighbors waited a good minutes making sure nobody got out of that car before they called the fire department to come put out the fire and tow the wreck away by that time the asphalt under the car had melted and caught fire too which subsequently left a large and nasty pot hole in the street the city is slow about repairing small streets so the hole stayed there providing a traffic hazard for several months all this was two years ago the agent concluded and there s been no trouble since but the house and the neighborhood still have a bad reputation and that s why the house was so cheap hearing this story i nearly laughed my ass off i told the agent that if i had the money at the moment i d by god buy the house this was nothing compared to bad neighborhoods i d seen here in california where drive by shootings go unchecked by the well armed cops let alone by the unarmed neighbors if that s the absolute worst you ll find in phoenix then that s the city for me that s the difference that an armed civilian population makes think about it mike van pelt when guns are outlawed mvp netcom com only carl rowan will have guns mvp hsv lsil com
talk.politics.guns	re who s next mormons and jews in article r bv dif apple com earlw apple com earl wallace writes the koreshians rubbed themselves out neither mormons nor jews have a propensity for dousing themselves with kerosene so i m not particularly concerned or shall we blame jim jones on the government also it is silly to make this statement fifteen minutes after the fire started the official word out of fbi headquaters in dc was that the dv s committed suicide it would seem logical that the lantern story has more credibility you can t even to pretend to know for sure what happened although clinton is doing just that jeff strait strait uicsl csl uiuc edu university of illinois phone impeach klinton
talk.politics.guns	re change of name what does this censored from norway think he s doing telling us how to run the place i wanna know somebody please splain guess how norway survived the third reich give you a hint it wasn t by passive resistance the way the danes did it i believe it had something to do with a politician whose name isn t exactly the most complimentary word nowadays one vidkun quisling we all know what a quisling is right i m sure everyone can come up with a few examples right about now steve
talk.politics.guns	re that silly outdated bill was re koresh and miranda in article apr csd newshost stanford edu andy sail stanford edu andy freeman writes in article qibs flk vela acs oakland edu awesley vela acs oakland edu awesley writes actually there was only one confirmed sniper to die in detroit according to sauter hines nightmare in detroit a rebellion it s what sources did sauter and hines use in congressional hearings later the newspaper folk admitted that their reports were completely wrong some of their excuses are understandable while others amount to gross negligence then there s their we lied as far as i know they never did the followup this btw is normal behavior for newsie s the followup isn t news i am pleased to accept life membership in the national rifle association and extend to your organization every good wish for continued success president john f kennedy march
talk.politics.guns	re reasonable for criminals civie arms limits in article apr gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes a poster claims he always asks anti gunners what they think would be reasonable personal firepower restrictions ok then caliber not greater than muzzle not greater than ft lbs with any combo of bullet wt vel action single shot rifles and single action revolvers revolvers bearing no more than six rounds and incorporating an anti fanning mechanism to discourage roy rogers wannabes bullets any non explosive variety hps just fine now these specs leave the h r magnum as about the most powerful allowable civie cartridge for handgun or rifle use it would be reasonably effective against home intruders muggers rabid wolves and other such nasties even with the firearm type limitations at the same time this caliber power limit would reduce the ultimate lethality of hits i suspect that you think that this is less lethal than the typical assault weapon you are wrong compared to what most criminals use a mm with military ammo fmjs or a military rifle use is extremely rare or mm with military ammo fmjs the h r magnum with civie bullets is more lethal most of the arms which criminals and the military use are among the least lethal arms in existance what if we just punish the criminal and leave the law abiding citizen alone it hasn t been tried in recient times but it might work
talk.politics.guns	nra address could someone email me a usnail address for the nra i d like to write them a letter encouraging them to see to it very emphatically that the nd amendment is restored to the form that the founding fathers intended people like howard metzenbaum seem very intent on diluting the nd amendment to the point where it is no effort for the governmentski to do what they did in waco after all from what i know of the federalist papers it is this kind of tyranny the nd amendment was supposed to be designed to protect against honestly m tanks against the civilian population attack helicopters we need the right to keep and bear anti tank weapons actually if they intend to mass armour against the weakly armed at that civilian population we need the right to field tactical nukes government tyranny who would have ever thought it would happen here i wonder who se house they ll run tanks through next because the gov suspects child abuse maybe yours maybe mine and what is an illegal weapon which they have yet to show us if the nd amendment is designed to do what i believe it is and the gov uses tanks against you government self serving naaaah not here time was when the u s used armour attack helicopters against small countries now we re down to using them against to what amounts to a busload and a half of civilians first they came for the jews but i did not stop them because i was not a jew then they came for the catholics but i did not stop them because i was not a catholic then they came for the lutherans but there was now no one left to stop them rev martin niemoller probably didn t get it verbatim but you get the idea if the nra reads this then never mind about the address god save us james s barker portland state university barker cs pdx edu
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article c t g il news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes in article r rad rl transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes in article c s ds j news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes the original question was about who started the fire and whether the madmen were inside or outside the compound to which i replied on the possible sanity level of those inside and outside was that your argument well you didn t make it very well you started from the questionable premise that the fire was necessarily an act of insanity rather than an act of negligence or an accident recall one survivor claims that the fire started when a tank knocked over a kerosene lamp kind of makes arguments regarding relative sanity somewhat moot no according to an australian documentary made in the year before the stand off began koresh and his followers all believed he was christ koresh had sex with children and women married to other men in the compound these were the perfect children resulting from the great seed of his magnified horn ex members describe him in ways not dissimilar to the way jim jones has been described point noted have you submitted your faith and sex life for batf clearance better hurry i believe the deadline was april i paid my taxes there was no reference to sex or religion on the form nice evasive maneuver mr chekov but they re still on our tail let me ask it more plainly which of the above complaints about david koresh s religious or sexual proclivities justified an armed raid by the bureau of alcohol tobacco and firearms two of the nine who escaped the compound said the fire was deliberately set by cult members so when they talk to the news reporters directly and relate the same details will you believe them believe them i won t even recognize them and neither will anyone else who doesn t know them personally do you believe they would put impostors before the national tv cameras it s not entirely far fetched nobody outside the compound would know everybody inside the compound don t forget the batf admits having agents inside the compound in any case at this point we are getting conflicting reports from the survivors best wait til more light is shed upon them of course this is no good if you believe in eternal darkness i m simply being the devil s advocate there s reasonable doubt by the boatload standing in the way of anybody totally swallowing the official government story on waco cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes mikey ccwf cc utexas edu strider writes according to an australian documentary made in the year before the stand off began koresh and his followers all believed he was christ koresh had sex with children and women married to other men in the compound these were the perfect children resulting from the great seed of his magnified horn ex members describe him in ways not dissimilar to the way jim jones has been described i don t know how accurate the documentary was however koresh was never convicted of any crimes against children nor was the batf after him for child abuse their purview in this case is strictly in firearms violations so this information is irrelevant to the discussion fbi agents have to pass rigorous psychological examinations and background checks plus those in charge will undoubtedly have to explain their decisions in great detail to congress why would the fbi want to fulfill koresh s own prophecy those in charge will undoubtedly have to explain something but whether their answers even remotely resembles the truth we may never know and who is left alive to care whether the prophecy is fulfilled it only holds meaning for the nine who survived correction the fbi said that two of the cult members said this so far no one else has been able to talk to them so when they talk to the news reporters directly and relate the same details will you believe them if they confirm the story i probably will definitely not until then however mike ruff this above all to thine own s t r i d e r mikey ccwf cc utexas edu self be true polonius those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety b franklin
talk.politics.guns	re guns gone good riddance from article apr gnv ifas ufl edu by jrm gnv ifas ufl edu you are loosing there is no question about it of those who vote your cause is considered an abomination no matter how hard you try public opinion is set against the rkba only irrational fools such as yourself are set against rkba there are plenty of people who support it this is the end by the finish of the clinton administration your rkba will be null and void tough titty the government will be overthrown long before that happens a huge millitia composed of all available men and women who care about their country will defeat the forces of the evil klintonistas the people will prevail oh so you think armed citizens alone can t overthrow the government consider this do you think all law enforcement officials and members of the armed forces will turn against the people that they are entrusted to serve not hardly you can count on a lot of people in the army marines air force navy national guard police officers and so on joining in the cause to defend the liberties and freedoms of american citizens count on it the government will not be able to disarm everyone without starting a civil war you had better discover ways to make do without firearms the number of cases of firearms abuses has ruined your cause there is nothing you can do about it those who live by the sword shall die by it the press is against you the public the voting public is against you the flow of history is against you this is it surrender your arms soon enough officers will be around to collect wrong again people will just hide their guns so these officers more like jack booted stormtroopers will not be able to find them them resistance is useless they will overwhelm you one at a time your neighbors will not help you they will consider you more if an immediate threat than the abstract criminal they will unless they are idiots they will realize that if they don t then they will be next including you believe me if what you describe happens they will be coming for more than guns disarming citizens would require that everyone s cherished freedoms and liberties be suspended temporarily more likely they d never be restored unless the people do something about it too fucking bad you have gone the way of the kkk violent solutions are passe avoid situations which encourage criminals then you will be as safe as possible such as it is scott kennedy brewer and patriot before david koresh is a cheap thug who interprets the bible through the barrel of a gun atf spokesman after the atf is a cheap thug who interprets the constitution through the barrel of a gun me
talk.politics.guns	re nd amendment dead good from article apr gnv ifas ufl edu by jrm gnv ifas ufl edu yea there are millions of cases where yoy say that firearms deter criminals alas this is not provable i think that that there are actually few cases where this is so it certainly is provable around a million americans every year defend themselves with firearms in many of these cases the defender doesn t even have to fire a shot the mere presence of a gun is oftentimes all the deterrent that is needed i don t like violence anymore than anyone else does but taking away the right of americans to keep and bear arms is not the solution to the violent crime problem in this country if honest law abiding citizens are unable to get firearms then they will be preyed on even more by criminals who will be able to acquire guns through illegal channels expect to start seeing the crime syndicates who smuggle drugs into this country start smuggling guns believe me this will happen there is plenty of economic incentive for gangsters to illegaly import guns into this country if guns should be banned by the klintonistas the bulk of firarems are used against unworthy and unnesessary opponents those who posessa a cool jakcet you want those who would argue with you about a parking space those who would take your woman in short trivial and worthless causes statistics por favor too much of this has ruined you cause there is no recovery in the near future federal martials will come for your arms no one will help you you are more dangerous to their thinking than the criminal this is your own fault see my previous post that ought to set you straight the nd amendment is dead accept this find another way people have the right to keep and bear arms no matter what the constitution says that means that even if the nd amendment is repealed the people that s all american citizens fyi will still have the right to keep and bear arms scott kennedy brewer and patriot before david koresh is a cheap thug who interprets the bible through the barrel of a gun atf spokesman after the atf is a cheap thug who interprets the constitution through the barrel of a gun me
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article c spov lre news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes in article r qsrinnc clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com jim de arras writes in article c s ds j news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes i agree that they deserved a trial they had more than days to come out and get their trial they chose to keep the children with them and to stay inside they chose to stay inside even after they were tear gassed i do not find these actions rational even noriega was smart enough to give up and go for the trial he deserved mr roby you are a government sucking heartless bastard unworthy of comment but apparently true my opinion only of course humans died yesterday humans who would not have died if the fbi had not taken the actions they did that is the undeniable truth i cried for them nor would they have died if they had come out with their hands empty that is undeniable truth no it is not it is possible the fbi planned for this to happen and the gunfire heard was the fbi keeping the folks inside i m not proposing this as the way it went down but just to point out that it s not undeniable that if they walked out yesterday they would be alive today my heart bleeds just as much as yours for the children who were never released given days of ample opportunities to do so my heart also bleeds for people so blinded by religious devotion to not have the common sense to leave the compound when tanks came up and started dropping in tear gas early in the morning my heart bleeds for no one you are the bleeding heart and i m sure beyond any possible doubt that you do not feel for those people as i do you can not say the heartless things you have said if you did you seem to say they got what they deserved i do not think this however if they did set the fire which started in more than one place and spread very quickly then they got what they wanted and put into motion themselves they got what they wanted what kind of creature are you that you can believe this i see the batf is going to be investigated by the justice dept and likely by arlen spectre and congress this is good they have bungled the affair from the start we agree on this now lets have your god the fbi investigated too jim jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov jim jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov
talk.politics.guns	re boston gun buy back mpetro brtph bnr ca myron petro p writes ron miller wrote when you ask the question of the authorities or sponsors of buyback programs whether they will check for stolen weapons and they answer no it s total amnesty good point about registration schemes being used only for harassment deleted i would also like to point out that this is receiving stolen property and is no different than a pawn shop owner doing the same thing myron petro nra uspsa dvc y all the opinions included in this post are my sole responsibility and are protected by the first amendment and guarnteed by the second amendment an interesting idea consider at any locality where a buy back program is being instituted get a list of guns they received and compare serial numbers with a list of stolen guns and sue the people responsible for the program if those guns were destroyed criminal charges can also be made receiving stolen property destruction of private property etc
talk.politics.guns	is it really apples to apples lawful vs unlawful use of guns i have been convinced of the right of americans to an effective self defense but something strikes me as odd among the pro rkba arguments presented here the numbers comparing hundreds of thousands indeed even a million of instances of law abiding citizens deterring criminal activity seem valid to me likewise the number of gun caused homicides each year about year however it is surprising that the evil antigun empire darth vader breathing sound effect here never tries to compare all legitimate gun defenses vs all gun crimes instead it s always all legitimate gun defenses which includes cases in which the criminals are shot but not killed and cases in which the criminal is not here vs just criminal gun homicides which only includes case sin which the victim died why is this of course it wouldn t be unreasonable to say that in each crime already measured involving guns the consequnces are already known and it is safe to assume that a gun based bank robbery last week will not suddenly turn into a gun basd robbery homicide whereas in the legitimate gun defenses one may assume that all those criminals who were deterred would have committed more crime or more serious crimes had they not been deterred case kim kim husc harvard edu
talk.politics.guns	my gun is like my ame mark wilson responding to c d tavares mw so the laws exist and the penalties are as you say but nobody is ever mw prosecuted under these laws they are traded away for easy pleas mw having such gun laws on the books is still better than nothing mw what would the da have traded away in order to get the guilty plea if the mw gun law had not been in effect our liberty right don t even think about enforcing the law and imposing the prescribed penalty let s hose the citizens instead olx madness takes its toll please have exact change ye olde bailey bbs v bis v bis houston texas yob sccsi com home of alt cosuard
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card in article u uicvm uic edu jason kratz u uicvm uic edu writes in article apr csd newshost stanford edu andy sail stanford edu andy freeman says i have been at a shooting range where gang members were practicing shooting how do we know that they were gang members and not undercover cops or even law abiding menacing minorities btw why the sneer quotes we know because the area that the gun shop shooting range is in is right on the border of the west side of chicago that is a gang infested area there are many many bad things going on in that area also i have several friends that live very close to that area who have had problems with some of these folks by the way where did i say that they were minorities that was what i got from your phrasing too well then were they the ones you saw black you don t deny seem to deny it either do you think that only minorities have gangs not so as far as the quotes are concerned it was totally obvious that they weren t just practicing for marksmanship i don t know about you but i have never seen anyone else practice marksmanship by taking their gun out of their coat as fast as possible and start shooting that is the recommended way to practice with a ccw too aim alone is no good for defense if you can t get the gun rapidly if you would have been there andy it would ve been obvious to you too what outside of prejudice would have made it obvious of course it might not have been who knows all i do know is that i was there i live here and i know that they were gang bangers when you live here long enough it becomes pretty easy to spot them via gang colors gang signs etc yes prejudice is more subtle in the north isn t it one last thing my sister is a social worker she makes it her point to find these things out gang signs colors etc because it is in her best interest to do so she is nice enough to let me know these things so i can watch out for myself as i live right on the border of the west side of the city enough said more than enough i understand you completely jason jim jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov
talk.politics.guns	luser awesley wrote that was the entire point to you what exactly did i claim i ve heard eye witness descriptions of tanks using their main guns to respond to sniper fire quite effectively i wasn t wrong i ve heard those descriptions if you re paying attention i ve mentioned that i saw the tanks with my own eyes but the main gun firing was an account i heard that helps people judge whether or not to kick in the to use your words bullshit filters stating that i claimed this is a falsehood later in the same post another part of my memories was that while most damaged building were burnt some were in rubble based on what i remember i was and am inclined to believe an old sarge or two fine now you are stating that you believe their claims or that you are inclined to see below for a stronger statement of your beliefs those claims are still ludicrous however previously awesley had written you can also read of the troops using grenade launchers prompting me to write to fire fragmentary grenades i doubt that as well to fire concussion grenades perhaps to fire tear gas certainly but you would be perfectly willing to let us believe they fired frags wouldn t you since it makes your other claim seem more plausible to which awesley replied john again strawman techniques do you feel you re losing it so you have to stretch what i said and knock that down what i read said nothing about what they fired and so i put nothing in there if you need some help let me know and i l take your side of this for a while you re not scoring here you re boring here but why did you mention grenade launchers at all because it supports the notion that the tanks shelled buildings and it supports that notion because it conjures images of troops launching fragmentary grenades but that too is ludicrous i wrote if tanks had fired their main guns in detroit people would have been screaming about it for the past two and half decades i would know about it awesley relied glad to know you re such an expert nice to hear some an authority i especially appreciate your basis of knowledge if it had happened you would have know it since you are such an authority you probably know that people did scream about an alleged massive cover up in the number of people killed in the detroit riot some claimed dead others said the offical number is but the concise columbia encyclopedia says it was several i ve also heard some things about that but i won t dare repeat them you d assert that i claimed they were truth yes if it happened i would have heard about it everybody would have army tanks don t fire their cannons in american cities in the s without it becoming common knowledge without minority leaders seizing on it and condemning it over and over again without civil libertarians saying this has gone far enough so yes my never hearing of it was the basis for my disbelieving the claim now i have more reasons to disbelieve it not one poster has written to say yes i lived in detroit at that time and everybody knew that the tanks had fired shells this is the usenet if it had happened somebody here would remember it furthermore your own research failed to come up with any support for the claim the claim is extraordinary and it has no supporting evidence extraordinary or not unless you count the brags of a couple of guardsmen shooting the shit i do not i wrote unless you also claim that the national guard managed to cover it up awesley wrote taking the tour after the riots it was pretty easy to tell the difference between army and guard troops or so i recall from years ago and i seem to recall it was the army running the tanks so it would have been an army cover up quibble fine it was an army cover up six years in the reserves has taught me the difference also but do you think that in two and half decades not one guilt ridden participant has come forward and said yes i shelled americans or i gave the orders to fire the cannons or i helped cover it up i wrote if your mind is open enough to believe that well good for you i prefer to live in reality and here in reality i find it hard to believe that those tanks even had any shells much less fired them awesley replied given the level in destruction in detroit i m quite willing to believe that they did fire their guns good then we can drop the junk about you not claiming that they did your belief fails a basic reality check why isn t it known awesley concludes now then we ve bored the shit out of anyone whose bothered to read this far and all you ve managed to say is that you don t believe the account i cited actually now we have established that i don t believe what you believe as well as why i don t believe it and if it s boring then i yield the last word to you if you want it you may say anything you like with impunity i am dropping the subject john l scott
talk.politics.guns	apology was luser i was shocked to see that the subject of my last rely to awesley was luser that was certainly not my intention i meant to leave the subject line unchanged i believe that the nntp server i use at columbia must have put in that subject line in protest over problems with my header that was rather rude of them but beggars can t be choosers i suppose in any case i didn t do it and i apologize to awesley for the apparent insult john l scott
talk.politics.guns	re gritz jbs liberty lobby larouche christic insitute libertarian in article u uicvm uic edu u uicvm uic edu writes note that bo gritz was on the populist party ticket with david duke for veep in until he found out that duke was leading he ticket when he withdrew his candidacy so gritz gave up his chance to be vice president of the us just to aviod supporting duke i d hardly call that giving up his chance to be vice president of the us the chance of the populist party ticket winning is essentially nil still it does imply that he doesn t want to be associated with duke robert
talk.politics.guns	re is it really apples to apples lawful vs unlawful use of guns in article apr husc harvard edu kim scws harvard edu john kim writes i have been convinced of the right of americans to an effective self defense but something strikes me as odd among the pro rkba arguments presented here the numbers comparing hundreds of thousands indeed even a million of instances of law abiding citizens deterring criminal activity seem valid to me likewise the number of gun caused homicides each year about year however it is surprising that the evil antigun empire darth vader breathing sound effect here never tries to compare all legitimate gun defenses vs all gun crimes instead it s always all legitimate gun defenses which includes cases in which the criminals are shot but not killed and cases in which the criminal is not here vs just criminal gun homicides which only includes case sin which the victim died why is this of course it wouldn t be unreasonable to say that in each crime already measured involving guns the consequnces are already known and it is safe to assume that a gun based bank robbery last week will not suddenly turn into a gun basd robbery homicide whereas in the legitimate gun defenses one may assume that all those criminals who were deterred would have committed more crime or more serious crimes had they not been deterred i think its an attempt to show lives saved v lives lost all other gun related crimes don t result in lives lost on the other hand its impossible to know how many of the successful self defenses prevented lives from being lost in other words the lives lost is pretty clear its the homicide and non negligent manslaughter number while the lives saved is some percentage of the successful self defenses clearly that percentage doesn t have to be real high to show that lives saved lives lost as a semi related point check out kleck s point blank i believe it goes into some related areas it also is well written and informative case kim kim husc harvard edu michael phelps external mjp vnet ibm com internal mjp bwa kgn ibm com mjp at kgnvmy and last but not least a disclaimer these opinions are mine
talk.politics.guns	re insane gun toting wackos unite fcrary ucsu colorado edu frank crary university of colorado boulder i don t know about animal attacks but there are murders each year and under die in the manner you suggest if only of the murders were killings by wacko s you would be wrong worse there are also rapes and aggravated assaults each year these numbers make violent attacks and preventing them thousands of times more significant than the accidents you are worried about these stats are invalid we re talking backcountry these stats for rapes assaults deaths do not represent the backcountry singularly the great majority represent urban incidents you should have pointed this out rob
talk.politics.guns	re some more about gun control in article apr mtu edu cescript mtu edu charles scripter writes this mention of a well regulated militia is what confuses me according to the federalist paper s a well regulated militia has a well defined structure and follows nationally uniform regulations perhaps you should actually read the federalist papers perhaps you should reread federal which deals exclusively with the well regulated malitia here is what is says about its character to oblige the great body of the yeomanry and of the other classes of the citizens to be under arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and evolutions as often as might be necessary to acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the character of a well regulated militia it also talks about the well regulated militia having a nationally uniform in structure and disipline i will note you did quote the end of this particular paragraph which states little more can reasonably be aimed at with respect to the people at large than to have them properly armed and equipped and in order to see that this be not neglected it will be necessary to assemble them once or twice in the course of a year but do you knew how much organization is required to training a large group of poeple twice a year just to try to get the same people every year provide a basic training to new people so they can be integrated into the force and find a suitable location it requires a continually standing committee of organizers since a well regulate militia is nationally uniform in structure and disipline and meet once or twice a year to train how can you claim a well regulated militia is not well organized but i will concide a well organized militia is not necessarily a well regulated militia several people have stated that the well organized militia is what is defined under usc which states the militia of the united states consists of all able bodied males at least years of age and except as provided in section of title under years of age who are or who have made a declaration of intention to become citizens of the united states and of female citizents of the united states who are commissioned officers of the national guard this deos define the militia but were is the adjective well regulated usc does not define a well regualed militia in any way shape or form it only defines who can become part of a well regulated militia the federalist papers clearly define the well regualed militia as a proper subset of the militia in the same paragraph quoted above it talk above disciplining all the militia of the united states so they fit the character of a well regulated militia this is what the paragraph states about the associated costs it would form an annual deduction from the productive labor of the country to an amount which calculating upon the present numbers of the people would not fall far short of the whole expense of the civil establishments of all the states to attempt a thing which would abridge the mass of labor and industry to so considerable an extent would be unwise and the experiment if made could not succeed because it would not long be endured another quote provide by charles scripter is james madison federalist paper regarding the general welfare clause nothing is more natural nor common than first to use a general phrase and then to explain and qualify it by a recital of particulars so the phrase the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed must either qualify or explain the phrase a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state the definition of explain as stated in the american hertitage dictionary of the enlish language the new college edition is to make plain or comprehensible remove obscruity from elucidate it was the economists who undertook to explain this puzzle to define explicate expound he explained his plan to offer reasons for or a cause of an answer for justify explain an error the second phrase clearly does not explain the first therefore the second phrase must qualify the first the definition given for qualify is to describe by enumerating the characteristics or qualities of characterize to make competent or suitable for office position or task to give legal power to make legally capable to modify limit or restrict as giving exceptions to make less harsh or severe moderate grammar to modify the meaning of a word or phrase since the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed does not describe modify or make less harsh anything and it has nothing to do with grammar or some sort of position or task by process of elimination it must fall into definition and since deals with legal power the same thing the constitution does it must be the correct definition in this case therefore the right of the people to keep and bear arms gives legal power to the well regualated militia and this legal power shall not be infringed i thank you very much mr scripter you have provided me with more evidence that the second amendment only concerns itseft with the people s right to form well regulate militia and says very little about the right of an untrained person to keep and bear a caliber machine gun and since i totally untrained in the use of any firearm something i personly have meant to correct by going to a nra gun safety course and joining a gun club cannot legally buy such a machine gun i conclude the courts and democraticly elected congress agree with me so now we know which category mr rutledge is in he means to destroy our liberties and rights i mean to destory our liberties and rights is that why a participate in the discussion of exactly what our libertues and rights are i force my version of our liberties and rights by begining statements of what our liberties and rights with all that the second amendment clearly states to me using expressions such as states to me clearly mean i intend to force my views on others i don t think so so in effort not to force my views and not to destory our liberties and rights i state that nothing i have written or will write in the matter of liberties and rights is the final word for i am only one person among many and the final word on liberties and rights cleary and irrevocably belongs to the many if only it were a modern document with a john lawrence rutledge smart index and hyper links stretching all research assistant through the world data net it was terribly frustrating to flip back and forth between interactive media group the pages and crude flat illustrations that computer science department never even moved nor were there animated umass lowell arrows or zoom ins it completely lacked a university ave for sound lowell ma most baffling of all was the problem of new words in normal text you d only have to touch an unfamiliar word and the definition jrutledg cs ulowell edu would pop up just below from david brin s earth
talk.politics.guns	re handgun restrictions to bbs billand tsoft net subject re handgun restrictions newsgroups talk politics guns in reply to ow b w w tsoft net organization cray research inc cc bcc in article ow b w w tsoft net you write i would like to know what restrictions there are on purchasing handguns ie waiting periods background check etc in the states of nevada and oregon thanks bill bill anderson bbs billand tsoft net in oregon your must get a background check ie fingerprints full slap day waiting period that is unless you have a ccw then all requirments have been meet ernie smith ernie oregon cray com
talk.politics.guns	re armed citizen april in article apr lds loral com kendall lds loral com colin kendall writes in article apr dazixco ingr com crphilli hound dazixca ingr com writes the armed citizen mere presence of a firearm without a shot being fired prevents crime in many instances as shown by news reports sent to the armed citizen perhaps so but note that of the accounts cited there was only one in which no shot was fired of the other twelve five described cases in which the assailant was wounded by a shot and six described cases in which the assailant was killed by a shot and had not these citizens accepted the moral responsibility to protect their own lives there could well have been at least innocent victims lying dead and several criminals still out walking the streets perpetrating their crimes on others ron phillips crphilli hound dazixca ingr com senior customer engineer intergraph electronics east evelyn avenue voice mountain view ca fax
talk.politics.guns	re some more about gun control in article qicep obf transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes in article apr beaver cs washington edu graham cs washington edu stephen graham writes in article qhpcn b transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes as far as john q public with a gun the supreme court has already ruled in cases such as us v miller u s and us v verdugo urquidez s ct that that is exactly what the amendment protects this interpretation can be found as far back as the dred scott case in it s worth noting that us vs miller sustained miller s conviction of possession of an illegal firearm noting that a sawed off shotgun was not a proper militia weapon no they noted that no one had claimed that it was a proper militia weapon despite having been used in at least two wars this was true since neither miller nor his lawyer appeared before the court did they or did they not sustain miller s conviction i don t have the text of the case handy yes shotguns had been used in wwi the spanish american war and the us civil war that was not in question the possession of a sawed off shotgun was i e a weapon altered to improve concealibility therefore us vs miller supports limited government regulation of firearms don t go arguing down this road unless you are willing to abide by the consequences that you find at the end of it mainly that the law abiding common man has a right to own any weapon that has a militia purpose from handguns to sawed off shotguns and fully automatic weapons that in fact is what this decision says you are free to produce evidence that i m not willing to abide with all the implications of this just because i don t whole heartedly endorse the nra position does not mean that i oppose the rkba this attitude is what makes the nra unpopular stephen graham graham cs washington edu uw beaver june graham
talk.politics.guns	re luser actually now we have established that i don t believe what you believe as well as why i don t believe it and if it s boring then i yield the last word to you if you want it you may say anything you like with impunity i am dropping the subject john l scott how very kind of you
talk.politics.guns	re guns in backcountry no thanks in article qkcok s i usenet ins cwru edu ci cleveland freenet edu john k gever writes does anybody reading this group have an actual honest to god experience with violent crime in the backcountry to tell about it was around in the shenandoah valley near woodstock virginia me my wife a friend his wife and his kids were hiking in a totally desolate mountain area all of a sudden large rocks began raining down on us looking up we saw at least punks gleefully letting loose rocks from what was an obvious stash they were a couple hundred feet above us meanwhile the women and kids were screaming and running for cover and the punks were shrieking with laughter me and my friend yelled for them to knock it off they responded that we should get f ed me and my friend drew our pistols and fired a couple of times into the trees above their heads they ran with no more pound rocks coming at our heads we proceeded on our journey sorry but me and my friend saw no need to let it evolve to a more violent level than we were already experiencing i guess we should have tried harder to understand and cope with the anger that society had instilled in them and was driving them to do such things guess that s a cross i ll have to bear brad
talk.politics.guns	re gun talk legislative update for states viking iastate edu dan sorenson writes lvc cbnews cb att com larry cipriani writes iowa all firearm related bills are dead senate file dealing with off duty police officers carrying concealed remains viable the power of the word processor and a stamp at work the fact that around here the state rep generally lives no more than nine miles from any constituent doesn t hurt either dan sorenson dod z dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what i read not what i say don t blame them usenet post to exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them does anyone know the particulars on the senate file does this bill allow or deny off duty police from carrying concealed from what information that i have iowa has a discretionary permit policy on ccw if s allows police off duty to carry concealed then i would be inclined to oppose it i don t believe off duty police officers should have any more rights than civilians if law or policy prevents law abiding citizens from being armed for self defense then why should off duty police officer be treated any differently
talk.politics.guns	re carrying arms in article apr spdc ti com dwhite epcot spdc ti com dan white writes however haven t we already lost our right to bear arms it seems that in most states like texas a citizen may own a gun and carry while at his home or business but a citizen is severely restricted from bearing outside these areas here in texas you cannot carry in your car except when traveling which is usually defined as traveling across a county line how did this come about are there any court rulings on the legality of restricting the carrying of a weapon outside the home in texas it is legal to carry handguns while traveling and also to and from sporting activities chapter of the texas state penal code does not restrict long guns therefore it is legal to carry and transport long guns any place in texas regards clay
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today jmd cube handheld com jim de arras writes an edu er not towing the party line thank you jim you re welcome actually i m probably something of an outcast because i ve committed the ultimate college student heresy i m not a liberal this is not liberal bashing mike this above all to thine own s t r i d e r mikey ccwf cc utexas edu self be true polonius those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety b franklin
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch update ah yes i see a few liberal weenies have come out of the woodwork to defend the burning of the children probably drooled all over themselves while watching the tv coverage probably had a few like that in nazi germany as well oh yeah atf fbi now claims according the the media that there are a few survivors the number seems to vary minute by minute
talk.politics.guns	re who s next mormons and jews as a minor point of interest earlier news reports claim to have been quoting the governor of texas when her holiness referred to the dividians as mormons and called for their expulsion from tx any texans have details
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors steiner jupiter cse utoledo edu jason think steiner writes ever hear of electric ovens or microwaves very popular electric stoves outside metro areas especially oh i see electricity is a natural right our wonderful government would never cut off the power to the people they were besieging are you really this dumb or just acting like it for the sake of argument jason no they didn t have electrical power but no i don t find the idea of davidians calmly cooking lunch with gas masks on as the fbi knocks the buildings down very credible either it s not like this whole discussion is relevant it started when some one made the wholly unsubstantiated allegation that the wood stove ig nited napalm the fbi shot into the buildings i m not a groveling apoligist for the feds far from it but wild ac cusations like this are ridiculous and obfuscate legitimate criticism of their conduct in this whole affair tom gift tomgift uxa cso uiuc edu
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch update nut case panics realizes he s made a complete fool of himself in front of thousands of netters backs away from earlier rash statements god have mercy on him
talk.politics.guns	re ax the atf a few comments on the atf s botched handling of this case dan s and another one hasn t enyone heard of a leader s recon this is when the leader of the assult goes and looks at the objective to see if anything has changed that would affect the mission even the freshman cadets here in rotcland know about them mostly because they know it as the part where they lie on the cold ground for an hour or so but they ve heard about it maybe the atf should have hired out to the local rotc guys andrew diederich diederic spot colorado edu these opinions are only mine on alternate tuesdays
talk.politics.guns	impeach clinton reno fact both janet reno and bill clinton have admitted responsibility even grief over the deaths in waco fact regardless of who started the fire there are more than enough things on tape to make a civil rights case against these two cruel and unusual punishment dying tortured rabbits on tape come to mind fact it is a federal felony to infringe civil rights under color of law where death is involved this offense carries a penalty of life in prison fact impeachment is allowable for high crimes and misdemeanors anything that s a federal felony should qualify conclusion we have no choice if we are an honest people but to impeach mr clinton and remove reno from office glenn r stone glenns eas gatech edu wearer of asbestos underoos
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes mfrhein wpi wpi edu michael frederick rhein writes as someone else has pointed out why would the stove be in use on a warm day in texas do you eat all your food cold thank you for pointing out the obvious to people who so clearly missed it i can t stand it when people s first reaction is to defend the aggressor mr tavares you have a unique and thoughtful way of getting to the heart of the matter and i thank you for putting it to good use mike ruff this above all to thine own s t r i d e r mikey ccwf cc utexas edu self be true polonius those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety b franklin
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors irvine uxh cso uiuc edu brent irvine writes glenns eas gatech edu writes hey gang it s not about duck hunting or about dark alleys it s about black clad helmeted and booted troops storming houses and violating civil rights under color of law are you ready to defend your constitution its also about crazy fatigue clad survivalist types blasting the snot out of people who accidentally stray onto his land in the name of self defense well the count is now at least dead by government action how many have been killed in the last year in the manner you described what no facts oh how silly of me i forgot you don t like guns so you don t need no stinkin facts don t get too self righteous mr gun toter don t get too smug mr gun hater mike ruff this above all to thine own s t r i d e r mikey ccwf cc utexas edu self be true polonius those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety b franklin
talk.politics.guns	re who s next mormons and jews in article aej d cmuvm bitnet aej d cmuvm bitnet writes as a minor point of interest earlier news reports claim to have been quoting the governor of texas when her holiness referred to the dividians as mormons and called for their expulsion from tx any texans have details the davidians are a year old splinter from the seventh day adventists if that s the information you were looking for cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article c tbwr xi news cso uiuc edu tomgift uxa cso uiuc edu tom gift writes no they didn t have electrical power but no i don t find the idea of davidians calmly cooking lunch with gas masks on as the fbi knocks the buildings down very credible either i don t know how quickly you can get a woodstove to heat up from a cold start but mine takes about three hours it s not like this whole discussion is relevant it started when some one made the wholly unsubstantiated allegation that the wood stove ig nited napalm the fbi shot into the buildings mox nix the bd s were prepared to provide their own heat and light and were doing so for weeks while the power was out that means the compound contained containers of flammable liquids or gases that could be busted by a tank intrusion plus ignition sources which no one can tell for sure were all off at the time i m not a groveling apoligist for the feds far from it but wild ac cusations like this are ridiculous and obfuscate legitimate criticism of their conduct in this whole affair on the contrary we are proposing alternate scenarios the people who are coming to wild conclusions are the feds who are absolutely positive how the fire started even though none of them were in a position to see it either and the stories they hear from their prisoners changes hourly cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	wi and il firearms law questions a couple of questions for you firearms law experts out there question according to the nra ila state firearms lawbook in wisconsin it is unlawful for any person except a peace officer to go armed with a concealed and dangerous weapon there is no statutory provision for obtaining a lixense or permit to carry a concealed weapon jury instructions indicate that to go armed one must have a firearm on one s person or within his immediate control and available for use does this mean that open carry is allowed if so just how open does it have to be would an in the pants holster be considered concealing what if one had their jacket on and it partially covered the weapon also is there any way to be allowed to carry concealed or is it just not allowed period question as i understand it in evanston il they have a ordinance banning handguns is there any way to get around this provision what would the penalty if you were found out be what if you used said handgun in a defensive shooting in your apartment there how would the city law apply to your impending trial for the shooting also what is il state law concerning short barreled weapons short barreled shotgun is what i would be interested in if a handgun were not available either that or a shortened mm carbine ie colt marlin one more thing what is the chance of getting a ccw permit in il without being rich or famous or related to the mayor please send replies via e mail as things seem to be piling up around t p g a little faster than i can handle thanks again steve syck syck miller cs uwm edu
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors irvine uxh cso uiuc edu brent irvine writes cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes mfrhein wpi wpi edu michael frederick rhein writes as someone else has pointed out why would the stove be in use on a warm day in texas do you eat all your food cold ever hear of electric ovens or microwaves very popular electric stoves outside metro areas especially hey einstein ever tried to use an electric stove or microwave without electricity it s been shut off for weeks now courtesy of your local fbi assault squad now are you going to put your foot in your mouth or shall i get a crowbar and assist you mike ruff this above all to thine own s t r i d e r mikey ccwf cc utexas edu self be true polonius those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety b franklin
talk.politics.guns	re guns gone good riddance cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes surrender your arms soon enough officers will be around to collect them resistance is useless don t tell me you re the borg warner right haaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahaha hee hee chuckle this was absolutely fabulous i nearly fell out of my chair laughing wonderful mr tavares my hat is off to you again mike ruff this above all to thine own s t r i d e r mikey ccwf cc utexas edu self be true polonius those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety b franklin
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article c t ic dc news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes please tell me what you think would have happened had the people come out with their hands up several weeks ago now will you answer my question up top a suggestion cameras panning over planted automatic weapons followed by a show trial and medals all around for the valiant forces of lawn order cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article apr batman bmd trw com auerbach batman bmd trw com writes women stand up for your right to be just as stupid as men our new attorney general seems determined to do so in the past few days she has said she hopes the king beating will not reduce public confidince in law enforcement the tactics of using tear gas and driving tanks through walls in waco were intended to further a peacefull solution to the crisis those same tactics were intended to prevent a mass suicide but she never expected the sect to react by killing themselves it s comforting to know at least that she wasn t clinton s first choice frank crary cu boulder
talk.politics.guns	raid justification was blast them next time in article r chu h pandora sdsu edu chiu io nosc mil francis chiu writes initial assault on the compound more like a wooden farm house if it burned to the ground like it did for what regardless of who started caused the fire none of this would have happened if the atf can honestly justify their initial assault and handled it properly i just got through listening to the o clock news on channel here in dallas they trotted out a list of justifications produced by the atf after months of investigation for their raid i couldn t believe the junk on this list for example the bds were accused of stockpiling a bunch of mm and ammunition that can be used in m and m assault rifles imagine that they had ammunition they also had aluminum dust yeah it s a component of thermite but so far i haven t heard that it s illegal to take a grinder to the aluminum lawn furniture the only thing on the list that could conceivably have been illegal was an m grenade launcher anybody know about this months of investigation for this people died die welt ist alles was zerfall ist peter cash apologies to ludwig wittgenstein cash convex com
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch update in article aej d cmuvm bitnet aej d cmuvm bitnet writes ah yes i see a few liberal weenies have come out of the woodwork to defend the burning of the children probably drooled all over themselves while watching the tv coverage probably had a few like that in nazi germany as well oh yeah atf fbi now claims according the the media that there are a few survivors the number seems to vary minute by minute
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors just to shed some light on the fire it was widely reported ap etc that there were several witnesses to bd folks starting the fires it has also been reported that the fires broke out in several places at once which rules out a bradley knocking over a lamp etc as the cause what i would like to see is some serious discussion of this incident i believe the moves made were right and proper but i still have some problems with some of the tactics after watching the abc special on it tonight as well as cnn and nightline i question some of the atf and fbi actions could it have been possible to have taken koresh outside the compound at some time before the feb th raid could a further wait have resulted in a different outcome were fbi actions blaring loudspeakers etc the right course of action and a few other questions like i said i believe the actions taken in general were proper but i still have some reservations one other point i m no fan of janet reno but i do like the way she had the balls to go ahead and take full responsibility seems like the waffle boy had problems figuring out just where he stood on the issue
talk.politics.guns	re some more about gun control first i would like to say how much i appreciate having so literate and erudite an individual as mr rutledge with whom to discuss this topic frankly most anti rkba posters refuse even to approach the topic of the original understanding of the bill of rights as detailed in the writings of the era this is most refreshing second i must apologize for leaving the discussion for several days my brigade s quarterly drill was this weekend and i needed to attend to several matters pertaining to the state militia some people seem to feel that the concept of the militia is an anachro nism that is out of place in the th century i m not sure the swiss would agree and i think perhaps a discussion of how the militia both organized and unorganized fits into the defense plans of my state mississippi please do not assume that this describes something peculiar to one southern state for instance the commonwealth of massachusetts has a well organized militia which members report maintains stocks of both riot guns and machine guns the laws of other states will vary but are probably similar title of mississippi code defines our militia as all able bodied citizens of the state between the ages of seventeen and sixty two years the militia is divided into classes the national guard the mississippi state guard and the unorganized militia the national guard is a strange sort of fish from a constitutional perspective it tries to be both state militia and federal reserve the discussion of this para constitutional arrangement is quite interesting in itself but somewhat beyond the scope of this discussion suffice it that at this date the national guard has ceased to have any constitutional standing as anything but a federal reserve force mississippi and most other states maintains a purely state organized militia in mississippi this is called the state guard in other states it may be called something else the state guard exists as a cadre or training corps made up of mostly experienced officers and senior ncos who serve as volunteers without compensation we drill on a monthly basis at the company and battalion level brigade once a quarter and have an annual drill of the whole organization our state authorized cadre strength is this is a skeleton of an organization without any flesh the muscle and sinew when needed will come from the unorganized militia in time of invasion insurrection or calamity the governor can order the activation of the state guard when this takes place a call will first be made for volunteers to fill the organization out to either its contingency strength of or full strength of in the event that a sufficient number of people fail to volunteer the law provides detailed instructions for the conducting of a draft of the unorganized militia the size of the state guard is not specified by law but rather by executive order at one time the organized militia of mississippi consisted of regiments needless to say the state does not have armories brimming with weapons with which to equip such a force the historical precedent for arming such a force is by use of mostly the private arms of the militiamen it is my hope that demonstrates that state militias are far from being the long dead anachronisms that some may wish to claim no i simple stated that the people have a right to join a well organized militia and i have also stated that a militia that meets once or twice a year is clearly well organized and this state of readiness that i have claimed the people have a right to is the same state of readiness expected of the militia as stated by hamilton regarding hamilton if you take hamilton s opinion as being the sole representative of the opinions of the founding fathers you will have chosen a highly skewed sample set hamilton was on the extreme federalist end of the political spectrum others such as coxe and henry can be chosen to represent the other end many contemporaries felt that the idea of having a standing army of any sort or even a select militia or train bands were contrary to the egalitarian nature of the govern ment they were striving to perfect the compromise reached was to provide for a small army which had to be refinanced every two years and iron clad protection for the militia which was to remain ever terrible and irresistible these protections included state control not federal limitation of federal utilization of the militia i e execute laws suppress insurrections and repel invasions and the right to keep and bear arms to prevent what the british had tried to do at lexington these limitations eventually proved so onerous to the federal govern ment that they were skirted by the creation of the national guard the national guard was created for one very simple reason the constitutional militia was had proved too unreliable for fighting wars of imperial expansion e g spanish american war the constitution provided that the militia could only be employed by the federal government in very limited purposes as far back as the war of militia units had refused to leave united states territory to attack the enemy further there was no constitutional authorization for any conscription of anyone into the federal military and militiamen were particularly protected in all wars until ww i every american who left the country under arms was a volunteer when the national guard acts of required that each new member also enlist as a reservest in the army existing soldiers were grandfathered at least one of these grandfathered individuals refused to go to france in and his refusal was upheld by the federal courts mr rutledge has stated that the second amendment applies only to members of a well organized militia however the pre constitutional history of the american militia shows relatively few periods when the militia came close to meeting either messrs rutledge or hamilton s definition of well organized in the period of peace between the french indian war and the revolution many companies simply stopped drilling and had to be reconstituted just prior to the revolution perhaps mr rutledge would care to argue that those of my ancestors who answered the lexington alarm had forfeited their rights because their units didn t drill for a few years in the s i would not be so bold again i wish to repeat the national guard for all its merits is not the militia described by the constitution nor by mr hamilton nor by mr henry nor by mr coxe the fact that the federal government and many states are delinquent in their attentions to and organizing of their constitutional militias diminishes neither their responsibilities nor the rights of the militia as detailed in the constitution misunderstanding of the nature and purpose of the militia is but one error that has crept into modern readings of the constitution the constitution prohibits states from keeping troops or ships of war in time of peace i have heard some insist this prevents states from maintaining a militia but this comes about because people today do not understand the meanings of the words in their th century usage today we call any large vessel a ship but in the th century the word described a particular kind of vessel a ship is a large vessel with three or more masts each carrying square rigged sails a brig has two masts in the contemporary usage the states were prohibited only from keeping the largest warships of the day those capable of global operations today s equivalent might be a prohibition on the states keeping nuclear missiles troops at this time meant a full time professional military organization any study of contemporaneous writings will bear this out in at least one respect i am in agreement with mr rutledge being personally involved in the maintenance and advancement of the militia as a viable means of defense for a modern society i am frequently both bemused and saddened when friends and associates wax poetic on their place in the unorganized militia and become strangely silent or scarce when invited to attend a drill of their state s militia donald r newcomb university of southern mississippi dnewcomb whale st usm edu this is the way we tax and spend tax dnewcomb falcon st usm edu and spend we re democrats in office
talk.politics.guns	re riddle me this in article apr jupiter sun csd unb ca j jupiter sun csd unb ca fuller m writes that the gas was not harmful as the sensitive caring janet reno described it is it as far as i know tear gas especially in large concentrations is very dangerous even toxic for small children this makes the fbi s supposedconcern for the safety of the children seem rather hypocritical frank crary cu boulder
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article r g inneah clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com jim de arras writes in article c sou lnb news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes in article apr guinness idbsu edu betz gozer idbsu edu andrew betz writes in article c rynw iz news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes and i suppose the fbi also prevented them from coming out with their hands up while national tv cameras watch watch from where two miles away far enough away that whatever really happenned must be explained through the vengeful filter of a humiliated agency that said quote enough is enough please tell me what you think would have happened had the people come out with their hands up several weeks ago it didn t happen and who is responsible for it not happening certainly not the children koresh was calling the shots he was talking with his lawyer and the fbi since others were released safely there is no sane reason for keeping the children inside the compound scenario that is simplest and most plausible i do not generally believe in conspiracy theories that involve complicated and unlikely scenarios the fbi sent letters to martin luther king s wife insinuating that mlk was having an affair again please tell us exactly how much you trust our supposedly benevolent government more than someone who would not release children from the compound obviously you are an authority worshiper not at all are you a koresh worshiper i e more than david koresh vernon howell jesus christ i saw lengthy excerpts from an australian documentary made in that clearly showed that this was a cult give me a camera and time with you and i can present excerpts that show you to be a cult leader guarenteed thanks for my laugh of the day definitely a very silly supposition you should at least view the whole documentary before you claim it as a source i would if i could the news show that showed the lengthy excerpts also had interviews with the filmmaker who made the documentary who basically confirmed what was shown in the excerpts from the time he spent at the compound in i am not pleased with the batf handling of the affair i think they bungled it badly from the start but i don t think they are responsible for the fire which started in two different places two places eh you saw this or did the wonderful fbi tell you this i saw one place i believe that this was reported by local radio reporters on site a fire started in a three story tower at the same time as the two story window shown on the tv coverage the batf is by no means devoid of fault in the handling of this affair but to suggest that they may have intentionally started the fire is ludicrous i suspect that there were plenty of camerapeople willing to risk small arms fire to get some good footage these people were told to get the hell out of camera range why couldn t answer this one eh this is the most important question of all it is the root cause of all the other suspicion i thought about mentioning how reagan and the military treated the press in grenada and how that set the precedent but decided it wasn t worthy of discussion if the news reporter got shot you can bet his family would sue the government for letting him into the danger area the root cause of suspicion in my mind is why people wouldn t flee a building that had numerous exits during the minutes time it took to burn down or why didn t they flee hours earlier when the tear gas was first introduced i can find no rational explanation for their behavior
talk.politics.guns	re the cold war who really won in article apr linus mitre org glover tafs mitre org graham k glover writes if one reasons that the united states of america at one time represented and protected freedom individual liberty and personal responsibility and i do in fact think that this is true and that totalitarianism absolute government control and tyranny represents freedom s opposite which it does did the usa really win the cold war of course not the usa s only hope is for yelsen how ever you spell it to fail the referendum and have the hard liners take over again standard disclaimers always apply graham k glover unmutual jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov
talk.politics.guns	re riddle me this in article r lp inn mojo eng umd edu chuck eng umd edu chuck harris wa uqv writes if so why was cs often employed against tunnels in vietnam cs tear gas was used in vietnam because it makes you wretch so hard that your stomach comes out thru your throat well not quite that bad but you can t really do much to defend yourself while you are blowing cookies i think the is bz gas not cs or cn bz gas exposure results in projectile vomiting loss of essentially all muscle control inability to concentrate or think rationally and fatal reactions in a significant fraction of the population for that reason its use is limited to military applications frank crary cu boulder
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article r vqinneb clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com jim de arras writes in article c spov lre news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes in article r qsrinnc clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com jim de arras writes in article c s ds j news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes i agree that they deserved a trial they had more than days to come out and get their trial they chose to keep the children with them and to stay inside they chose to stay inside even after they were tear gassed i do not find these actions rational even noriega was smart enough to give up and go for the trial he deserved mr roby you are a government sucking heartless bastard unworthy of comment but apparently true my opinion only of course so your opinion is truth i see humans died yesterday humans who would not have died if the fbi had not taken the actions they did that is the undeniable truth i cried for them nor would they have died if they had come out with their hands empty that is undeniable truth no it is not it is possible the fbi planned for this to happen and the gunfire heard was the fbi keeping the folks inside i m not proposing this as the way it went down but just to point out that it s not undeniable that if they walked out yesterday they would be alive today you can believe that if you wish it is undeniable however that people have left the compound unharmed and alive earier in the standoff and since their leader was preaching that they would have an apocalypse you can not say undeniably that there wouldn t have been a mass suicide if the fbi had simply stayed outside and waited another days my heart bleeds just as much as yours for the children who were never released given days of ample opportunities to do so my heart also bleeds for people so blinded by religious devotion to not have the common sense to leave the compound when tanks came up and started dropping in tear gas early in the morning my heart bleeds for no one you are the bleeding heart and i m sure beyond any possible doubt that you do not feel for those people as i do you can not say the heartless things you have said if you did i am the heartless bleeding heart you are not making sense you seem to have no concern that someone would keep children inside this compound when they had days to let them out that sounds pretty heartless to me i just heard on the news that some of the survivors regret they hadn t stayed in the inferno to prove their loyalty to koresh this makes me sad and sick you seem to say they got what they deserved i do not think this however if they did set the fire which started in more than one place and spread very quickly then they got what they wanted and put into motion themselves they got what they wanted what kind of creature are you that you can believe this have you ever heard of jonestown the sad thing is the people inside the compound were the authority worshipers and their only authority was koresh howell if these people were able to think for themselves there would likely be a lot more survivors today koresh preached a fiery apocalypse as early as last year i see the batf is going to be investigated by the justice dept and likely by arlen spectre and congress this is good they have bungled the affair from the start we agree on this now lets have your god the fbi investigated too by all means the fbi should be investigated too btw i thought the second ammendment was god jim jmd handheld com
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in c tenu f ns nodak edu green plains nodak edu bill green writes just to shed some light on the fire it was widely reported ap etc that there were several witnesses to bd folks starting the fires it has also been reported that the fires broke out in several places at once which rules out a bradley knocking over a lamp etc as the cause consider this the bds had more than one lamp the tanks made more than one hole in the building did anyone else notice on the video that it appeared that wherever there was smoke coming out of the building there was a tank nearby the fact that it appears that fires started in several places does not rule out anything also where are these several witnesses the way i heard it from the fbi spokesman on cnn the witnesses were all people driving the tanks one other point i m no fan of janet reno but i do like the way she had the balls to go ahead and take full responsibility seems like the waffle boy had problems figuring out just where he stood on the issue too bad nothing will happen to her or him the fbi and the media have done their job well dwayne jacques fontenot
talk.politics.guns	re some more about gun control in article apr mtu edu cescript mtu edu charles scripter writes you didn t even get the capitalization correct try reading usca on the constitution or get any other correct version of the constitution this is really stupid nitpicking capitalization rules in the late th century were quite different from today and what was posted matches current capitalization rules we also don t make s look like f and other such things done in the late seventeen hundreds in the original constitution militia arms etc were capitalized simply because they were nouns this is also done currently in german there is no special significance to these words simply because they are capitalized the capitalization denotes no special emphasis pete zakel phz cadence com or uunet cadence phz aries mar apr you are the pioneer type and hold most people in contempt you are quick tempered impatient and scornful of advice you are not very nice
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in c rynw iz news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes and i suppose the fbi also prevented them from coming out with their hands up while national tv cameras watch would you have come out if you knew the only national tv cameras were well over a mile away and yet the agents with the guns were only a few yards away they had contact with a lawyer so i am inclined to believe they had an idea of what their situation actually was this also leads to the conspiracy theory that the lawyer had the batf pinned on rights violations if the bd s acted as witnesses hence the arson i doubt that one too but it is still quite clear that leaving a safe place to surrender is a rather stupid thing to do until that place is no longer safe do you disbelieve everything the fbi says as a matter of course given how they ve allowed no other views to be heard i ll reserve judgement until the trial but so far as the fbi is concerned their statements carry the same amount of weight as photons at rest the batf is by no means devoid of fault in the handling of this affair but to suggest that they may have intentionally started the fire is ludicrous ludicrous yes possible yes plausible get the jury if the fire were set by accident or by people outside the compound i would have expected far more cult members to flee the compound or at least come out shooting that s what gets me too it is likely the cult members were holed up in an enforced place inside the building with a decent arson attempt i suspect many of them could have been trapped in addition the introduction of cs gas for several hours would have rendered many of them immobile if not unconscious when their masks quit all the props are there but proving what scene was played is difficult the only certainty is that the fbi and batf have few witnesses against them dan sorenson dod z dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what i read not what i say don t blame them usenet post to exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them
talk.politics.guns	re proper gun control what is proper gun cont in article c jgz j ssd intel com hays ssd intel com kirk hays writes i d like to point out that i was in error terminator began posting only six months before he purchased his first firearm according to private email from him i can t produce an archived posting of his earlier than january and he purchased his first firearm in march i guess it only seemed like years kirk hays nra life seventh generation i first read and consulted rec guns in the summer of i just purchased my first firearm in early march of this year not for lack of desire for a firearm you understand i could have purchased a rifle or shotgun but didn t want one case kim
talk.politics.guns	re cop kills teenager acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes suspended police officer arrested in revenge triple homicide providence r i ap a police officer afraid he would be fired for allegedly assaulting a teen ager walked into an auto body shop wher the youth worked said you re going to die and fatally shot him and two others police said a fourth youth was wounded a fifth escaped injury by hiding under a car suspended police officer robert sabetta of cranston was arrested at gunpoint over three hours after the shooting at wilson s auto enterprises in foster a rural town of about people in northwest rhode island doug holland i think i have updated info on this my understandingis that former officer cranston approached a teenager who was being questioned by another officer officer cranston struck teenager a in the head with a heavy police flashlight causing a significant though not life threatening there is no evidence that teenager a was doing anything threatening at the time teenager a was released on bail recognizance and filed a formal complaint against officer cranston the police chief suspended cranston pending an investigation into the use of excessive force the above is pretty clear but what seems to have happened is this the chief requested cranston s gun but cranston refused to turn it over until the chief went the cranston s home to get it sources said cranston had always wanted to be a cop and was very afraid of loosing his job because of the complaint against him a few days afterward cranston allegedly walked into wilson s garage where teenager a and friends were known to hang out and work on cars as a hobby cranston fatally shot teenager a as well as teenagers b and c teenager d was shot once in the shoulder chest teenager e was working under the car and was not noticed by officer cranston teenager d went to a home and summoned police who went to wilson s garage and found the corpses and one unscathed survivor a few days after his arrest officer cranston attemped to commit suicide in his cell case kim
talk.politics.guns	re we knew it would happen in talk politics guns jagst pitt edu josh a grossman writes well josh i agree with you to some respect less your spelling errors the gov mnt always must win even if they kill every man women and child by god they must win at all costs this happens over and over and over in this country lets make excuses get the worthless press to cover up everything let the officials take the heat for top management stupidity etc etc i am sick with greif for the entire well being of this nation and the constitution in claims to protect later josh later morty
talk.politics.guns	re boston gun buy back re more on gun buybacks the denver buy back trading guns for denver nuggets tickets was pretty much a bust very few guns were turned in the news tried to hype it but when the best they could do was including a loaded well you get the picture a side note the news also reported that the guns would be checked for whether or not they were stolen stolen guns will be returned to their owners they say does this have anything to do with the rally on the capital steps yesterday in support of the rkba even the rally made the pm news on channels ron miller
talk.politics.guns	re waco they did it masada re flaming wreckage i wrote my congressmen strongly worded letters demanding they dissolve the batf perhaps anger and grief can help spur a letter writing campaign ron miller
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article r ld bp transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes in article c t g il news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes in article r rad rl transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes in article c s ds j news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes the original question was about who started the fire and whether the madmen were inside or outside the compound to which i replied on the possible sanity level of those inside and outside was that your argument well you didn t make it very well you started from the questionable premise that the fire was necessarily an act of insanity rather than an act of negligence or an accident recall one survivor claims that the fire started when a tank knocked over a kerosene lamp kind of makes arguments regarding relative sanity somewhat moot no and another survivor claims he heard someone shouting the fire s started odd terminology that s what one says when you know a fire is planned not when one occurs by accident we will have to wait and see what the evidence shows assuming one is willing to believe any evidence offered by the distrustful ones according to an australian documentary made in the year before the stand off began koresh and his followers all believed he was christ koresh had sex with children and women married to other men in the compound these were the perfect children resulting from the great seed of his magnified horn ex members describe him in ways not dissimilar to the way jim jones has been described point noted have you submitted your faith and sex life for batf clearance better hurry i believe the deadline was april i paid my taxes there was no reference to sex or religion on the form the comments above and below were meant to address who might be unstable enough to keep children in a building with tear gas or start a fire nice evasive maneuver mr chekov but they re still on our tail let me ask it more plainly which of the above complaints about david koresh s religious or sexual proclivities justified an armed raid by the bureau of alcohol tobacco and firearms neither again i was merely addressing the sanity level of the players i agree that the batf handled the affair badly from day one btw i heard on the news today that the affadavit behind the no knock warrant was unsealed today grenade launcher was the only thing on the list that i found unusual two of the nine who escaped the compound said the fire was deliberately set by cult members so when they talk to the news reporters directly and relate the same details will you believe them believe them i won t even recognize them and neither will anyone else who doesn t know them personally do you believe they would put impostors before the national tv cameras it s not entirely far fetched nobody outside the compound would know everybody inside the compound don t forget the batf admits having agents inside the compound in any case ambitious news reporters could use the documentary filmed by an australian in on the compound grounds to help identify survivors i for one will check their stories for consistency with what i learned in a long news story about that documentary at this point we are getting conflicting reports from the survivors best wait til more light is shed upon them of course this is no good if you believe in eternal darkness i m simply being the devil s advocate there s reasonable doubt by the boatload standing in the way of anybody totally swallowing the official government story on waco certainly there is some room for doubt i certainly reserve the right to change my opinions when new evidence warrants such a change if i were conspiratorially minded however i would never be able to change my mind because any evidence i disliked would have to be a lie fabricated by the distrustful ones
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article r j l t transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes in article apr mcs kent edu mhamilto nimitz mcs kent edu the lawnmowerman writes oh then i guess that shooting those kind of babies is all right you sick bastard cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet why thanks for your reply to my post by the way i never never ever said that it was right to shoot those kind of babies however it was the branch davidian people in there that insisted on staying there with their savior yeah right budy boy because he had brain washed them into believing that what ever he says is the truth even if means that they are to give up their lives for his cause therefore it is davids fault and not the atf s who gave them to days to get out this was days to many for me and for many of the rest of the u s i am however sad to hear of the death of any child unlike the sick bastard i supposedly am matthew r hamilton mhamilto mcs kent edu a k a cs physics major h ksuvxb kent edu the lawnmowerman kent state university h ksuvxb kent edu look here for future advice quotes sayings jibberish philosohy
talk.politics.guns	waco clinton press conference part here is a press release from the white house president clinton s remarks on waco with q a to national desk contact white house office of the press secretary washington april following are remarks by president clinton in a question and answer session with the press p m edt the president on february the th four federal agents were killed in the line of duty trying to enforce the law against the branch davidian compound which had illegally stockpiled weaponry and ammunition and placed innocent children at risk because the batf operation had failed to meet its objective a day standoff ensued the federal bureau of investigation then made every reasonable effort to bring this perilous situation to an end without bloodshed and further loss of life the bureau s efforts were ultimately unavailing because the individual with whom they were dealing david koresh was dangerous irrational and probably insane he engaged in numerous activities which violated both federal law and common standards of decency he was moreover responsible for the deaths and injuries which occurred during the action against the compound in february given his inclination towards violence and in an effort to protect his young hostages no provocative actions were taken for more than seven weeks by federal agents against the compound this weekend i was briefed by attorney general reno on an operation prepared by the fbi designed to increase pressure on koresh and persuade those in the compound to surrender peacefully the plan included a decision to withhold the use of ammunition even in the face of fire and instead to use tear gas that would not cause permanent harm to health but would it was hoped force the people in the compound to come outside and to surrender i was informed of the plan to end the siege i discussed it with attorney general reno i asked the questions i thought it was appropriate for me to ask i then told her to do what she thought was right and i take full responsibility for the implementation of the decision yesterday s action ended in a horrible human tragedy mr koresh s response to the demands for his surrender by federal agents was to destroy himself and murder the children who were his captives as well as all the other people who were there who did not survive he killed those he controlled and he bears ultimate responsibility for the carnage that ensued now we must review the past with an eye towards the future i have directed the united stated departments of justice and treasury to undertake a vigorous and thorough investigation to uncover what happened and why and whether anything could have been dne differently i have told the departments to involve independent professional law enforcement officials in the investigation i expect to receive analysis and answers in whatever time is required to complete the review finally i have directed the departments to cooperate fully with all congressional inquiries so that we can continue to be fully accountable to the american people i want to express my appreciation to the attorney general to the justice department and to the federal agents on the front lines who did the best job they could under deeply difficult circumstances again i want to say as i did yesterday i am very sorry for the loss of life which occurred at the beginning and at the end of this tragedy in waco i hope very much that others who will be tempted to join cults and to become involved with people like david koresh will be deterred by the horrible scenes they have seen over the last seven weeks and i hope very much that the difficult situations which federal agents confronted there and which they will be doubtless required to confront in other contexts in the future will be somewhat better handled and better understood because of what has been learned now q mr president can you first of all tell us why after days you decided q mr president can you describe for us what it is that janet reno outlined to you in your minute phone conversation with the president i can t hear you both if one will go first and then the other q sorry can you describe what janet reno q mr president the president i ll answer both your questions but i can t do it at once q can you describe what she told you on sunday about the nature of the operation and how much detail you knew about it the president yes i was told by the attorney general that the fbi strongly felt that the time had come to take another step in trying to dislodge the people in the compound and she described generally what the operation would be that they wanted to go in and use tear gas which had been tested not to cause permanent damage to adults or to children but which would make it very difficult for people to stay inside the building and it was hoped that the tear gas would permit them to come outside i was further told that under no circumstances would our people fire any shots at them even if fired upon they were going to shoot the tear gas from armored vehicles which would protect them and there would be no exchange of fire in fact as you know an awful lot of shots were fired by the cult members at the federal officials there were no shots coming back from the government side i asked a number of questions the first question i asked is why now we have waited seven weeks why now the reasons i was given were the following number one that there was a limit to how long the federal authorities could maintain with their limited resources the quality and intensity of coverage by experts there they might be needed in other parts of the country number two that the people who had reviewed this had never seen a case quite like this one before and they were convinced that no progress had been made recently and no progress was going to be made through the normal means of getting koresh and the other cult members to come out number three that the danger of their doing something to themselves or to others was likely to increase not decrease with the passage of time and number four that they had reason to believe that the children who were still inside the compound were being abused significantly as well as being forced to live in unsanitary and unsafe conditions so for those reasons they wanted to move at that time the second question i asked the attorney general is whether they had given consideration to all of the things that could go wrong and evaluated them against what might happen that was good she said that the fbi personnel on the scene and those working with them were convinced that the chances of bad things happening would only increase with the passage of time the third question i asked was has the military been consulted as soon as the initial tragedy came to light in waco that s the first thing i asked to be done because it was obvious that this was not a typical law enforcement situation military people were then brought in helped to analyze the situation and some of the problems that were presented by it and so i asked if the military had been consulted the attorney general said that they had and that they were in basic agreement that there was only one minor tactical difference of opinion between the fbi and the military something that both sides thought was not of overwhelming significance having asked those questions and gotten those answers i said that if she thought it was the right thing to do that she should proceed and that i would support it and i stand by that today q mr president the president wait go ahead q can you address the widespread perception reported widely television radio and newspapers that you were trying somehow to distance yourself from this disaster the president no i m bewildered by it the only reason i made no public statement yesterday let me say the only reason i made no public statement yesterday is that i had nothing to add to what was being said and i literally did not know until rather late in the day whether anybody was still alive other than those who had been actually seen and taken to the hospital or taken into custody it was purely and simply a question of waiting for events to unfold there was i have i can t account for why people speculated one way or the other but i talked to the attorney general on the day before the action took place i talked to her yesterday i called her again late last night after she appeared on the larry king show and i talked to her again this morning a president it is not possible for a president to distance himself from things that happen when the federal government is in control i will say this however i was frankly surprised would be a mild word to say that anyone that would suggest that the attorney general should resign because some religious fanatics murdered themselves applause i regret what happened but it is not possible in this life to control the behavior of others in every circumstance these people killed four federal officials in the line of duty they were heavily armed they fired on federal officials yesterday repeatedly and they were never fired back on we did everything we could to avoid the loss of life they made the decision to immolate themselves and i regret it terribly and i feel awful about the children but in the end the last comment i had from janet reno is when and i talked to her on sunday i said now i want you to tell me once more why you believe not why they believe why you believe we should move now rather than wait some more and she said it s because of the children they have evidence that those children are still being abused and that they re in increasingly unsafe conditions and that they don t think it will get any easier with time with the passage of time i have to take their word for that so that is where i think things stand q can we assume then that you don t think this was mishandled in view of the outcome that you didn t run out of patience and if you had it to do over again would you really decide that way the president no well i think what you can assume is just exactly what i announced today this is a the fbi has done a lot of things right for this country over a long period of time this is the same fbi that found the people that bombed the world trade center in lickety split record time we want an inquiry to analyze the steps along the way is there something else we should have known is there some other question they should have asked is there some other question i should have asked can i say for sure that no one that we could have done nothing else to make the outcome come different i don t know that that s why i want the inquiry and that s why i would like to make sure that we have some independent law enforcement people not political people but totally non political outside experts who can bring to bear the best evidence we have there is unfortunately a rise in this sort of fanaticism all across the world and we may have to confront it again and i want to know whether there is anything we can do particularly when there are children involved but i do think it is important to recognize that the wrong doers in this case were the people who killed others and then killed themselves q mr president were there any other options presented to you for resolving this situation at any point from february th until yesterday the president well yes i got regular reports all along the way there were lots of other options pursued if you go back you all covered it very well the fbi you did a very good job of it i mean the fbi and the other authorities there pursued any number of other options all along the way and a lot of them early on seemed to be working some of the children got out some of the other people left there was a at one point there seemed to be some lines of communication opening up between koresh and the authorities and then he would say things and not do them and things just began to spin downward whether there were other in terms of what happened yesterday the conversation i had with the attorney general did not involve other options except whether we should take more time with the present strategy we were pursuing because they said they wanted to do this because they thought this was the best way to get people out of the compound quickly before they could kill themselves that s what they thought q did the government know that the children did not have gas masks q congressional hearings once the situation are you in agreement with that the president that s up to the congress they can do whatever they want but i think it s very important that the treasury and justice departments launch this investigation and bring in some outside experts and as i said in my statement if any congressional committees want to look into it we will fully cooperate there is nothing to hide here this was probably the most well covered operation of its kind in the history of the country more more
talk.politics.guns	waco clinton press conference part here is a press release from the white house president clinton s remarks on waco with q a to national desk contact white house office of the press secretary washington april u s newswire following are remarks by president clinton in a question and answer session with the press part of go ahead sarah q there are two questions i want to ask you the first is i think that they knew very well that the children did not have gas masks while the adults did so the children had no chance because this gas was very she said it was not lethal but it was very dangerous to the children and they could not have survived without gas masks and on february th let s go back didn t those people have a right to practice their religion the president they were not just practicing their religion they were the treasury department believed that they had violated federal laws any number of them q what federal laws the president let me go back and answer i can t answer the question about the gas masks except to tell you that the whole purpose of using the tear gas was that it had been tested they were convinced that it wouldn t kill either a child or an adult but it would force anybody that breathed it to run outside and one of the things that i ve heard i don t want to get into the details of this because i don t know but one of the things that they were speculating about today was that the wind was blowing so fast that the windows might have been opened and some of the gas might have escaped and that may be why it didn t have the desired effect they also knew sarah that there was an underground compound a bus buried underground where the children could be sent and they were i think they were hoping very much that if the children were not released immediately outside that the humane thing would be done and that the children would be sent someplace where they could be protected in terms of the gas masks themselves i learned yesterday i did not ask this fact question before that the gas was supposed to stay active in the compound longer than the gas masks themselves were to work so that it was thought that even if they all had gas masks that eventually the gas would force them out in a nonviolent nonshooting circumstance ms myers last question q mr president why are you still saying that q could you tell us whether or not you ever asked janet reno about the possibility of a mass suicide and when you learned about the actual fire and explosion what went through your mind during those horrendous moments the president what i asked janet reno is if they had considered all the worse things that could happen and she said and of course the whole issue of suicide had been raised in the public he had that had been debated anyway and she said that the people who were most knowledgeable about these kinds of issues concluded that there was no greater risk of that now than there would be tomorrow or the next day or the day after that or at anytime in the future that was the judgment they made whether they were right or wrong of course we will never know what happened when i saw the fire when i saw the building burning i was sick i felt terrible and my immediate concern was whether the children had gotten out and whether they were escaping or whether they were inside trying to burn themselves up that s the first thing i wanted to know thank you q mr president why are you still saying it was a janet reno decision isn t it in the end your decision the president well what i m saying is that i didn t have a four or five hour detailed briefing from the fbi i didn t go over every strategic part of it it is a decision for which i take responsibility i m the president of the united states and i signed off on the general decision and giving her the authority to make the last call when i talked to her on sunday some time had elapsed she might have made a decision to change her mind i said if you decide to go forward with this tomorrow i will support you and i do support her she is not ultimately responsible to the american people i am but i think she has conducted her duties in an appropriate fashion and she has dealt with this situation i think as well as she could have thank you applause
talk.politics.guns	re fbi director s statement on waco standoff feustel netcom com david feustel writes we have no evidence that batf fbi would not have started shooting when and if people had started coming out of the burning building oh how about the press if the batf fbi were going to shoot people leaving a burning building don t you think they would get rid of the press first tim smith
talk.politics.guns	re militia incredibly long in article c n vy ej ulowell ulowell edu jrutledg cs ulowell edu john lawrence rutledge writes in article qna m nq transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes in article c l n ll ulowell ulowell edu jrutledg cs ulowell edu john lawrence rutledge writes but do you knew how much organization is required to training a large group of poeple twice a year just to try to get the same people every year provide a basic training to new people so they can be integrated into the force and find a suitable location it requires a continually standing committee of organizers again my response is so what is mr rutledge arguing that since the local and federal governments have abandoned their charter to support such activity and passed laws prohibiting private organizations from doing so that they have eliminated the basis for the rkba on the contrary to anyone who understands the game they have strengthened it no i originally argued that the second amendment was a little bit and an anachronism these prohibiting laws are examples why the are an anachronism after all laws in made by representatives of the people these representatives of the people have already decided that the second amendment does not apply or is too broad in some cases since these representatives feel an unconditional interpretation is not wanted then it is probable that they majority of the people feel the same way if this is so it is an example of the people using their power of government if this is not how the people feel the people should stand up and state their wishes wrong neglecting that the government and media have bullshitted the people almost nonstop on this issue constitutional limitations are there to prevent a tyrrany of the majority for example a majority could vote that given ethnics have no rights are not people etc and it would fly using the logic above when government feels the constitution is not right for the times there is a procedure called an amendment to the constitution this is deliberately difficult and cumbersome to prevent abuse of those who decide to ignore the people or impose unjust policies of a majority on a minority a lynch mob is a majority remember outvoting the hangee what the government is doing are violations end runs around the limitations on the government probably because they know that the people would be very hard to convince that a good intention is behind tampering with the bill of rights government propeganda on guns has been very strong and persistant but not that strong and it just shows how gullible the people have become to i am from the government and am here to help you sort of line we have been lied to fed half truths rigged stats while the government knows their control laws have no effect on crime they want a government monopoly on force pure and simple do you really want the government to be able to override constitutional limitations by a simple vote of a bunch of elitists congresscritters i sure don t the founding fathers sure as hell didn t either mox nix mr rutledge you are the only one here claiming that the rkba is dependent on the existence of a top flight well regulated militia why this is a false assumption has already been posted a number of times no i simple stated that the people have a right to join a well organized militia and i have also stated that a militia that meets once or twice a year is clearly well organized and this state of readiness that i have claimed the people have a right to is the same state of readiness expected of the militia as stated by hamilton you better read the senate subcommitte on the constitution regarding the second amendment and a linguist s analisys of the second itself in the meanwhile show us some stuff to back up your assertions and yes i have the above mentioned documents and more online pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article r vo geraldo cc utexas edu mikey ccwf cc utexas edu strider writes roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes mikey ccwf cc utexas edu strider writes according to an australian documentary made in the year before the stand off began koresh and his followers all believed he was christ koresh had sex with children and women married to other men in the compound these were the perfect children resulting from the great seed of his magnified horn ex members describe him in ways not dissimilar to the way jim jones has been described i don t know how accurate the documentary was the documentary interviewed koresh and current and ex members the documentary disucussed koresh s christ status inside the cult cult brain washing techniques and unusual sex practices the leader gets any he wants and tells others when they can or can t i will let others decide if using religious authority to have sex with a minor is technically child abuse or not however koresh was never convicted of any crimes against children nor was the batf after him for child abuse their purview in this case is strictly in firearms violations all true so this information is irrelevant to the discussion well if a fire was deliberately set by members of the cult then the history and background of the cult is very relevant the history and backgournd of the jones cult was very important in understanding what happened at jonestown not taking into account the history and background of koresh s cult may also help explain why the fbi and batf so badly predicted the reponses they would get from inside the compund nearly every step of the way in this badly handled affair fbi agents have to pass rigorous psychological examinations and background checks plus those in charge will undoubtedly have to explain their decisions in great detail to congress why would the fbi want to fulfill koresh s own prophecy those in charge will undoubtedly have to explain something but whether their answers even remotely resembles the truth we may never know and who is left alive to care whether the prophecy is fulfilled it only holds meaning for the nine who survived it is likely that there will be at least two investigations jd and congress at this point correction the fbi said that two of the cult members said this so far no one else has been able to talk to them so when they talk to the news reporters directly and relate the same details will you believe them if they confirm the story i probably will definitely not until then however interesting and conflicting details are starting to come out i have reverted back to wait mode to find out whether the fire was intentional or accidental and how it started and why it spread so fast mike ruff
talk.politics.guns	re impeach clinton reno on apr gmt glenn r stone gs prism gatech edu wrote fact it is a federal felony to infringe civil rights under color of law where death is involved this offense carries a penalty of life in prison title and or seem to apply is conspiracy two or more persons against rights of citizens is deprivation of rights under color of law both call for up to life in prison if death occurs reno bentsen and clinton are probably all principals to the crime as they are responsible for authorized actions on the part of their subordinates conclusion we have no choice if we are an honest people but to impeach mr clinton and remove reno from office you forgot one detail they should be turned over to the texas authorities for trial as the crime was committed there article section charles scripter cescript phy mtu edu dept of physics michigan tech houghton mi when all government in little as in great things shall be drawn to washington as the centre of all power it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated thomas jefferson
talk.politics.guns	re we knew it would happen god forgive me for being an american who pays taxes to a government that commits atrocities like the waco massacre of dave feustel n myi feustel netcom com i m beginning to look forward to reaching the allocation of taxes to pay for the interest on the national debt at that point the federal government will be will go out of business for lack of funds
talk.politics.guns	batf acronym haven t seen this one on here yet so here it goes b arely a dequate t otally f ed i don t know about adequate but it fits the acronym andrew diederich diederic spot colorado edu these opinions are only mine on alternate tuesdays
talk.politics.guns	re rewording the second amendment ideas dfo vttoulu tko vtt fi foxvog douglas writes you believe that individuals should have the right to own weapons of mass destruction i find it hard to believe that you would support a neighbor s right to keep nuclear weapons biological weapons and nerve gas on his her property that really depends upon where you draw the line while defining these weapons and also on if you intend the law to be reflective of modern practice five months or five centuries down the road i ll give you a little hint see that manure pile in the farmer s field down the road in the usa that is a weapon of mass destruction biological in nature because if it gets washed into an open well it will contaminate the aquifers that supply thousands of cities with drinking water so where do you draw the line in the usa the epa has ruled that a pile of scrap iron is illegal care to draw a thinner line this time dan sorenson dod z dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what i read not what i say don t blame them usenet post to exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them
talk.politics.guns	re raid justification was blast them next time on wed apr gmt peter cash cash convex com wrote i just got through listening to the o clock news on channel here in dallas they trotted out a list of justifications produced by the atf after months of investigation for their raid cnn just claimed he bought semi automatic assault rifles and they say koresh wasn t god like he managed to buy or build a collection of fully automatic semi automatic rifles quite a feat i would say they re still making charges of sexual abuse and such or course nobody seems to have noticed that the treasury department has nothing to do with sex crimes or maybe the feds have recently instituted a tax on sex crimes yeah that s why the batf was there looking for unregistered guns this is my weapon this is my gun this is for fighting this is for i couldn t believe the junk on this list for example the bds were accused of stockpiling a bunch of mm and ammunition that can be used in m and m assault rifles imagine that they had ammunition i also heard that they re claiming to be cautious because of koresh s heated ammunition stockpile i seem to recall that smokeless powder tends to decompose at even moderate temperatures i would be rather surprised after a fire of that nature if any of his stockpile is unexploded or unburned they also had aluminum dust yeah it s a component of thermite but so far i haven t heard that it s illegal to take a grinder to the aluminum lawn furniture i seem to recall that aluminum powder is a common component of fireworks the folks on rec pyro could probably tell you the only thing on the list that could conceivably have been illegal was an m grenade launcher anybody know about this i think anything is legal if you have the proper license if he had a curios and relics permit i believe he could legally own handgrenades to go with his launcher charles scripter cescript phy mtu edu dept of physics michigan tech houghton mi when all government in little as in great things shall be drawn to washington as the centre of all power it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated thomas jefferson
talk.politics.guns	re the cold war who really won if one reasons that the united states of america at one time represented and protected freedom individual liberty and personal responsibility and i do in fact think that this is true and that totalitarianism absolute government control and tyranny represents freedom s opposite which it does did the usa really win the cold war standard disclaimers always apply graham k glover the cold war has not ended the only thing that has happened is that the two sides have exchanged roles the usa has a higher imprisonment rate per population than any country in europe by a factor of or so in california it is over per population the prison population in california is now over a quadrupling since most of these inmates were convicted under the drug prohibition laws police now confiscate property without trial under a good faith probable cause standard in the name of depriving the horrible ghastly drug dealers of their ill gotten gains conduct an opinion poll and a majority will answer yes if you ask them whether civil liberties and due process should be diluted in order to send our young people the message that we are serious about winning the war on drugs i don t know whether anyone has measured such a figure among gun owners but i would expect the same result they certainly seem to vote that way according to jack herer s book the emperor wears no clothes over twelve million years of prison time have been served under the marijuana prohibition laws by people who were minding their own business and causing no harm to others and less harm to themselves than users of tobacco with confirmed kills year under the war on drugs campaign of zero tolerance due process protections have eroded and mandatory sentences of ten years without parole have proliferated by and large gun owners have voted for the politicians who favor such measures and now all the precedents not only legal but political my fellow americans we must send our young people the message that we are serious about winning the war on murder are going to be applied to the oncoming wave of gun prohibition laws gun owners are about to get a taste of the medicine they voted for believing it would be used only on those with different tastes in recreational drugs what goes around comes around alan t furman don t blame me i voted libertarian atfurman cup portal com for more information
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card in article apr csd newshost stanford edu andy sail stanford edu andy freeman says in article u uicvm uic edu jason kratz u uicvm uic edu the point that i forgot to bring up here and this has nothing to do with g bein a gang member or not is that it is illegal to carry a concealed weapon in s thi area or in the state of illinois for that matter right it nas nothing to do with whther or not the person is was a gang member but that s what kratz inferred wrong there are people who can legally carry concealed in il and there are circumstances under which many people can carry concealed is accuracy really too much to expect andy no it s not if you would have read my other post i was accurate here s what i said material from another post the other point that i would like to make because i know it s true looked this one up in the illinois this is for you andy statutes before is that it is illegal to carry a concealed weapon in illinois also for you andy and then i went on to say there is no such thing as a ccw for us ordinary folk here end of quoted material of course i forgot to mention who us ordinary folk are so just for andy i m going to go to the library tomorrow and photocopy the part of the illinois statutes with this information and post it ordinary citizens can not get a license to carry a concealed weapon there are very few people who can i even asked my lawyer friend about this and he told me that only certain people can get licenses for concealed carry he couldn t remember which people but he knew for sure that regular citizens couldn t get that type of license he told me to go check at the library for the statutes which i did i ll post that info tomorrow night until then jason
talk.politics.guns	re the right to keep and bear arms was re who s next mikey ccwf cc utexas edu strider writes st pip cc brandeis edu writes just because someting was good once does not mean it will be forever yes gone are the days when you can leave your house unlocked at night well it couldn t last forever for the record it wasn t until i came to college excluding the times i went to omaha or council bluffs for something that i ever removed the keys from the ignition of my car come to think of it it was only after i moved to ames ia pop k that i ever took to locking my doors at night i ve discovered that k year isn t worth living in fear all day i might just move back to the farm this weekend is veishea you know when isu students riot for no apparent reason this year we ve the farm aid concert to add to the festivities anybody bet me there s another riot remember iowa law has three guys talking loud defined as a riot stay tuned for an on the scene report this weekend dan sorenson dod z dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what i read not what i say don t blame them usenet post to exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card in article qvff inn p clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com jim de arras says in article u uicvm uic edu jason kratz it is kind of funny though how you were the only one who picked up the part about my sister being a social worker and keeping me up to date on the gang thing everyone else seemed to just skim by that part jason i guess that just means everyone else was mistaken jim jmd handheld com actually not jim i just said that everyone else seemed to have skimmed by that part and not mentioned it you can get whatever meaning you want from it jason
talk.politics.guns	re blast them next time oldham ces cwru edu daniel oldham writes what happened in waco is not the fault of the batf if they would of had the proper equipment and personal then they could of captured the compound on the initial assault and none of this would of happened seal team six should have handled it delta force the batf had more than enough equipment and men they did not have good intel but they did have poor planning they fucked up even in just the most basic military sense they fucked up excuses do not justify body counts the batf needs more people better weapons and more armored transports when they meet hostile fire they should be able to use more force instead of retreating to a stand off if you are going to do a job then do it right the batf is there to protect us and they must have the proper equipment and people to do the job and your excuses fall upon deaf ears when the same batf has shown shitty leadership despite more people better weapons and exclusive use of armor against their targets batf is nothing more than a private army of the government do the agents swear an oath as i did to uphold the constitution you know that document that stipulates the highest law of the land if they do they should be up for charges in a court of law remember the law that s the whole reason for any of this with the wod and the increased crime in the streets the batf is needed more now then ever if they blast away a few good fokes then that is the price we all have to pay for law and order in this country look at all the good people that died in wars to protect this great country of ours yeah i ve been related to many of them this is flame bait right i m not paying your price mind if i sight in my guns on your body think of it as the price you have to pay that we may all live without fear of my making a stray shot it s fine and dandy to revel in the other guy being the target and your supposed safety in the military we called this chicken shit leadership from the rear the war on drugs despite being a catchy term for nothing more than a continuation of policy since before this century seems to have gotten you convinced that my rights aren t worth your good vibes mind if i cut your net access as well as access to any and all forms of expression see you make me nervous what with you being able to influence so many i m sure you can see how this is the price we have to pay for freedom and liberty in this country as well as a fair and unbiased judiciary with the arms build up in waco they needed to hit that compound with mega fire power they could of gone in there blasting and killed a few women and kids but it would of been better then letting them all burn to death days later mind if we include you in the body count i m sure we could all file it under civic improvement and your life wouldn t have been sacrificed in vain if you like you can will your estate to defecit reduction too now when you learn how the law protects or doesn t protect everybody equally and how our collective boot may one day be on your collective throat perhaps at that time you will mature enough to realize just what you re talking about and how serious this is next time include a smiley while i hesitate to think that you could have meant this seriously it deserved a small flame anyway dan sorenson dod z dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what i read not what i say don t blame them usenet post to exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them
talk.politics.guns	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption though i agree this is not the place to discuss guns i note in passing that a number of gun apologists seem to have ignored the words well regulated in their distorted interpretations of the second amendment david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
talk.politics.guns	re rewording the second amendment ideas in article r eu t transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes in article apr ousrvr oulu fi dfo vttoulu tko vtt fi foxvog douglas writes in article qv v j transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes in article c n gi f f ulowell ulowell edu jrutledg cs ulowell edu john lawrence rutledge writes the massive destructive power of many modern weapons makes the cost of an accidental or crimial usage of these weapons to great the weapons of mass destruction need to be in the control of the government only individual access would result in the needless deaths of millions this makes the right of the people to keep and bear many modern weapons non existant thanks for stating where you re coming from needless to say i disagree on every count you believe that individuals should have the right to own weapons of mass destruction i find it hard to believe that you would support a neighbor s right to keep nuclear weapons biological weapons and nerve gas on his her property if we cannot even agree on keeping weapons of mass destruction out of the hands of individuals can there be any hope for us i don t sign any blank checks of course the term must be rigidly defined in any bill when doug foxvog says weapons of mass destruction he means cbw and nukes when sarah brady says weapons of mass destruction she means street sweeper shotguns and semi automatic sks rifles i doubt she uses this term for that you are using a quote allegedly from her can you back it up when john lawrence rutledge says weapons of mass destruction and then immediately follows it with the us has thousands of people killed each year by handguns this number can easily be reduced by putting reasonable restrictions on them what does rutledge mean by the term i read the article as presenting first an argument about weapons of mass destruction as commonly understood and then switching to other topics the first point evidently was to show that not all weapons should be allowed and then the later analysis was given this understanding to consider another class cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet doug foxvog douglas foxvog vtt fi
talk.politics.guns	re rewording the second amendment ideas in article viking ponderous cc iastate edu viking iastate edu dan sorenson writes dfo vttoulu tko vtt fi foxvog douglas writes you believe that individuals should have the right to own weapons of mass destruction i find it hard to believe that you would support a neighbor s right to keep nuclear weapons biological weapons and nerve gas on his her property that really depends upon where you draw the line while defining these weapons this means you would support a ban if it were narrow enough good and also on if you intend the law to be reflective of modern practice five months or five centuries down the road i would hope so let s define a nuclear weapon as an explosive weapon whose majority of energy comes from fission and or fusion of atomic nuclei let s define a biological weapon as live organisms or viruses in such state quantity and with such a vector that they could cause death or serious disease further defined to a significant number of people if released in a city similarly populated area resevoir or cropland nerve gas and mustard gas are well defined other poisonous gasses should be individually banned only if it can be shown that there is no use not related to weaponry licenses should be available for research purposes on such chemicals i am not a lawyer but these ideas could certainly be a basis for definitions i ll give you a little hint see that manure pile in the farmer s field down the road in the usa that is a weapon of mass destruction nope it is not considered a weapon biological in nature because if it gets washed into an open well it will contaminate the aquifers that supply thousands of cities with drinking water so where do you draw the line in the usa the epa has ruled that a pile of scrap iron is illegal care to draw a thinner line this time it is not defined as a weapon of mass destruction many things are banned for other reasons dan sorenson dod z dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what i read not what i say don t blame them doug foxvog douglas foxvog vtt fi
talk.politics.guns	re will cs burn or explode rcanders nyx cs du edu mr nice guy writes the fbi released large amounts of cs tear gas into the compound in waco cs tear gas is a fine power is cs inflammable grain dust suspended in air can form an explosive mixture will cs suspended in air form an explosive mix could large quantities of cs have fueled the rapid spread of fire in the compound no chance if that cs ignited at all it would have been quite similar to a grain bin explosion explosion i note the entire compound would have been leveled not merely burned as there was no explosion there was no cs ignition causing the fire note at five miles a decent grain elevator explosion will knock you on your butt and your ears will ring for days i speak from experience here dan sorenson dod z dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what i read not what i say don t blame them usenet post to exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them
talk.politics.guns	re change of name how we survived ww we mailed postings about things we didn t know any thing about to only the wrong places i m not trying to censor this or any newsgroup i m just trying to give some hints about other newsgroups doesn t this belong to alt conspiracy note my posting was in reply to those about fbi torching the plasce after filling it with napalm and arrested people dissapering we all know what a quisling is right obviously we don t vidkun quisling is known to be a traitor in norway not a censor if i have betrayed my country norway bescause i implied that som of you jumped to conclusions sound a little paranoid then i think there is a lot of quislings in norway about waco it looks to me as the batf and fbi can t handle situations like this the way it went reminds me of stun bomb beeing dropped on a house in la from a helicopter whole block went up in flames died it doesn t have to be a conspiracy maybe they just screwed up this is not a signature it s merely a computergenerated text to waste bandwith and to bring down the evil internet thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no
talk.politics.guns	american horror file call for help today s atrocity in waco has finally impelled me to start working on something i ve been thinking about for some time over the last few years i have heard of one case after another of government running completely amok unfortunately most people are oblivious of the government s crimes and still think of it as their protector so i intend to put together what i call the american horror file a compilation of cases where the american government has run roughshod over the rights of its citizens over the last few years focusing especially on deaths and injuries resulting from no knock warrants and financial ruin to innocents resulting from civil forfeiture laws but including any other cases for which i can find decent documentation i hope to make people blood boiling artery bursting red hot enraged at their government the end result will probably be a book in electronic form ascii text and postscript files detailing the government s crimes of recent years this book will be distributed at cost and i will encourage people to post copies to bbs s send copies on disk to friends and print out copies and give them to neighbors this is a call for your help any information that you can send me on how government is running amok will be greatly appreciated i would prefer information that is well documented with sources given about specific instances of governmental abuses i also welcome anyone who wants to join me in collecting and researching information for this project kevin s van horn is your religion batf approved vanhorn bert cs byu edu
talk.politics.guns	news says batf indictment warrant unsealed something about how koresh had threatened to cause local problems with all these wepaons he had and was alleged to have someone else will post more details soon i m sure other news sniper injures outside mca buildling in l a man arrested suspect was disgruntled employee of universal studios which is a division of m c a question what will californians do with all those guns after the reginald denny trial case kim kim husc harvard edu
talk.politics.guns	batf s prime directive bully them bludgeon them bury them dave feustel n myi feustel netcom com i m beginning to look forward to reaching the allocation of taxes to pay for the interest on the national debt at that point the federal government will be will go out of business for lack of funds
talk.politics.guns	janet reno and responsibility i see no difference between janet reno s claim of responsibility for the waco massacre and the ira s claims of responsibility for various acts of terrorism against british citizens dave feustel n myi feustel netcom com i m beginning to look forward to reaching the allocation of taxes to pay for the interest on the national debt at that point the federal government will be will go out of business for lack of funds
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card i don t remember the figures exactly but there were about deaths in texas in that was caused by guns this is more than those beeing killed in car accidents yes there could be that low sentences or high poverty could influence the figures but they re still pretty high right i also believe texas has some of the most liberal gun laws in usa i should not suffer because of others we all agree on this one but we also live in a sociaty and therefor we ll have to give up some of our freedom note the do you have an insurance then you ll have to pay because of what others do do you buy anything you are paying for those who return goods steal or even those who gets a bonus do you live with other people then you can t do ererything you d want burping farting playing music loud what the hell is he trying to say when you live in a society usa are stilll counted as one you have to saccrifice the question is how much one state don t remember which texas tried to impose a rule that you could only buy one gun each month think you all know what happened i respect the right to defend yourself but that right should not inflict on other people it seems like you all realize that you have a problem in america the only problem is that you won t take the car away from the drunk driver you hope to cure him first hope life comfirms to the standard of winnie the poh this is not a signature it s merely a computergenerated text to waste bandwith and to bring down the evil internet thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no
talk.politics.guns	re clinton wants national id card aka ussr style internal passport in article apr hsh com paul hsh com paul havemann says in article c kse px cs cmu edu tsmith cs cmu edu tom smith writes in article apr ucsu colorado edu u fcrary ucsu colorado ed frank crary writes in article c jif i n boi hp com slack boi hp com david slack writes the idea of the card is bull in and of its self but i m curious to know do they plan on making it a requirement to always have it on you or is it only going to be required to be presented when trying to ge medical aid this at least has already been determined the blue cross medical coverage for all federal employees is a good model for a future national system to get emergency medical care anyone so insured must always carry their blue cross card before entering a hospital you must notify blue cross or they will refuse to pay your bills in an emergency where you must be treated before notifying them you must inform them within hours or if you are unable to do so for medical reasons the hospital must failing to do so within hours means they will not cover the hospitalization in you need your card to notify them and without the card the hospital certainly wouldn t know they had to therefore you are required to carry the card at all times or do without emergency medical coverage which works fine until you end up in the hospital because you were hit on the head and your wallet with your insurance card is stolen this happened to me and it took six months to sort the mess out these sorts of plans sound nice at first but in the end they just create a lot of paperwork and bureaucracy to deal with all the checking and filing they involve tom the non hacker whoa have a care what you say tom the obvious answer to that problem is to tatoo your national i d number on you say your forearm so you can never leave home without it hell it worked once before and that brings us back to my original sarcasm laden post where s the outcry from the liberal sector over the national id card my god if some conservative had proposed this plus clinton s national police proposal the liberals would be shrieking sieg heil and police state you self styled liberals ought to be ashamed of yourselves hypocrites i don t know what you watch but i saw a spokesman for the aclu voice opposition to this idea on nbc the very first night
talk.politics.guns	re waco clinton press conference part i predict that the outcome of the study of what went wrong with the federal assault in waco will result in future assaults of that type being conducted as full scale military operations with explicit shoot to kill directives dave feustel n myi feustel netcom com i m beginning to look forward to reaching the allocation of taxes to pay for the interest on the national debt at that point the federal government will be will go out of business for lack of funds
talk.politics.guns	re cost benefit analysis was fbi director s statement has anyone noticed or commented on the fact that so many of those who were willing nay demanding that we wait forever for mr hussein and iraq that we use tremendously costly sanctions to avoid a loss of life are now at the fore front of those clammoring that we should have smashed those religious radicals and we were wasting money allowing this stand off to go on how the worm turns when the sect changes
talk.politics.guns	re blast them next time oldham ces cwru edu daniel oldham babbles what happened in waco is not the fault of the batf if they would of had the proper equipment and personal then they could of captured the compound on the initial assault and none of this would of happened if they d gone to the door and knocked on it to serve the warrant like the sheriff had done other times they wouldn t have needed to have an initial assault but then herr klinton and attorney gen l reno wouldn t have been able to have told such heroic stories about how they protected the rest of us from a group of people who kept to themselves miles out in the prairie the batf needs more people better weapons and more armored transports when they meet hostile fire they should be able to use more force instead of retreating to a stand off if you are going to do a job then do it right the batf is there to protect us and they must have the proper equipment and people to do the job the batf needs to be disbanded this out of control group of rambo wannabees is a danger to the republic with the wod and the increased crime in the streets the batf is needed more now then ever if they blast away a few good fokes then that is the price we all have to pay for law and order in this country well i figure you re going to get flamed pretty badly by everybody else for this incredibly stupid statement so i ll just let it pass for now case western reserve huh do the feds know about that big stockpile of automatic weapons and crack you have in your house are you the same daniel oldham that lives on orchard drive just so they get the address right that is look at all the good people that died in wars to protect this great country of ours well it used to be a great country now i m not so sure i knew a few of those good people who died in wars i was in viet nam i can assure you none of us fought to protect the right of the government to attack its own citizens with military force without provocation hint serving a search warrant is not sufficient provocation to stage a military style assault on a religious group at least not here in the us maybe in iraq or syria with the arms build up in waco they needed to hit that compound with mega fire power they could of gone in there blasting and killed a few women and kids but it would of been better then letting them all burn to death days later this is a joke right or are they really letting fools like you into cwru now too bad used to be a good school how d you get in anyway did your old man buy a new wing for the library
talk.politics.guns	re the dayton gun buy back re boston gun buy back in article c uchu ffn cbnews cb att com lvc cbnews cb att com larry cipriani writes according to wnci fm radio this morning dayton ohio is operating a gun buy back they are giving for every functional gun turned in they ran out of money in one day and are now passing out vouchers of some sort they are looking for more funds to keep operating another media event brought to you by hci is there something similar pro gun people can do for example pay to anyone who lawfully protects their life with a firearm sounds a bit tacky but hey whatever works ack what a public relations nightmare just begging happen gun lobby pays vigilanties nra to shell out dough to gunfighters david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article c sv hjy news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu brent irvine writes do you eat all your food cold ever hear of electric ovens or microwaves very popular electric stoves outside metro areas especially the dividians didn t have that option after the fbi cut off their electricity flag burners don t bother me as much as seeing the american flag on tanks assaulting the church of americans who had never bothered anyone
talk.politics.guns	re don t knock the glock was re my gun is like my am ex card in article apr mksol dseg ti com pyron skndiv dseg ti com seriously there is no difference in the safeties betweena glock and any da revolver intellectually think of the glock as a very high cap revolver ignoring stove pipes misfeeds and all the other bonus exercises that autoloaders give you that is on a da revolver you get another try on a misfire on a pistol where the trigger does not cock the hammer like a jennings or an astra m or a glock a misfire requires the slide be cycled to get the gun to function rather than a high capacity revolver think of a glock as an astra m with no manual safety and a heavier trigger pull jim del vecchio
talk.politics.guns	latest on texas hb ccw i called the texas bill tracking people again today regarding hb concealed carry well it was supposed to come up for a vote this past wednesday but the bill got sent back to the public safety committee the psc gave it a favorable rating again and the bill must now be scheduled for debate by the calendars committee again daryl biberdorf n gjm d biberdorf tamu edu sola gratia sola fide sola scriptura
talk.politics.guns	re some more about gun control in article apr beaver cs washington edu graham cs washington edu stephen graham writes in article qicep obf transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes in article apr beaver cs washington edu graham cs washington edu stephen graham writes re is john q public with a gun protected it s worth noting that us vs miller sustained miller s conviction of possession of an illegal firearm noting that a sawed off shotgun was not a proper militia weapon no they noted that no one had claimed that it was a proper militia weapon despite having been used in at least two wars this was true since neither miller nor his lawyer appeared before the court did they or did they not sustain miller s conviction i don t have the text of the case handy miller was convicted of owning a sawed off shotgun and not paying the nfa tax snatches of the court s decision the second amendment was intended to assure the continuation and render possible the effectiveness of such a force the militia it must be interpreted and applied with that end in view the militia includes all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense however regarding sawed off shotguns certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense judicial notice is the term of art here it meant that no such evidence had been formally presented this is different from claiming that they had ruled that it wasn t yes shotguns had been used in wwi the spanish american war and the us civil war that was not in question the possession of a sawed off shotgun was i e a weapon altered to improve concealibility i m not talking about plain shotguns in war i m talking about short barrelled sawed off shotguns in war compare revolutionary war blunderbusses luparas in the spanish american war and trench cleaners in ww i they were also put to good use by us soldiers in ww ii not to mention being invaluable to tunnel rats in vietnam but of course miller took place in therefore us vs miller supports limited government regulation of firearms don t go arguing down this road unless you are willing to abide by the consequences that you find at the end of it mainly that the law abiding common man has a right to own any weapon that has a militia purpose from handguns to sawed off shotguns and fully automatic weapons that in fact is what this decision says you are free to produce evidence that i m not willing to abide with all the implications of this here is my quandary you seem to be arguing that certain types of guns fall outside the scope of the second this isn t a useful argument unless you believe that some significant gun or class of gun belongs in that class i think we both agree that zip guns probably aren t protected maybe we also both agree that all the weapons that random state governments have been banning or trying to ban because they have no sporting purpose and no provate citizen would ever need these guns do fall under the protection of the second so given that damn near any gun of any practical utility is or has at some time been used by the military even if only for marksmanship training purposes i need to understand why you are intent on pressing this point arguing that that something is not protected by the second just because i don t whole heartedly endorse the nra position does not mean that i oppose the rkba this attitude is what makes the nra unpopular often what makes someone unpopular is what other people say about him how much did any of us fear or abhor the branch davidians six months ago how many of us feared or abhorred saddam hussein five years ago cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.guns	re gritz jbs liberty lobby larouche christic insitute libertarian in article c l bc c x cs cmu edu rubinoff cs cmu edu robert rubinoff writes in article u uicvm uic edu u uicvm uic edu writes note that bo gritz was on the populist party ticket with david duke for veep in until he found out that duke was leading he ticket when he withdrew his candidacy that s a revisionist account of what happened gritz was well aware of duke s presence on the ticket given that gritz is not at all shy about associating and promoting other white supremacists such as the christian identity movement or willis carto whatever reasons gritz had to leave the ticket had nothing to do with duke s presence so gritz gave up his chance to be vice president of the us just to aviod supporting duke i d hardly call that giving up his chance to be vice president of the us the chance of the populist party ticket winning is essentially nil still it does imply that he doesn t want to be associated with duke i believe chip berlet has a populist party newsletter from the time with a photo of gritz happily shaking hands with duke ted frank thf kimbark uchicago edu i m sorry the card says moops the u of c law school standard disclaimers
talk.politics.guns	re some more about gun control in article apr mtu edu cescript mtu edu charles scripter writes in article c bu m k ulowell ulowell edu jrutledg cs ulowell edu john lawrence rutledge wrote in article q tpinnpcn gap caltech edu arc cco caltech edu aaron ray clements writes the second amendment is a guarantee of the right to bear arms clearly and unequivocally without infringement unfortunately the second amendment is not as clear as you state if last part of it is taken along it follows what you have said the problem i have is with the first part of the single sentence which makes up the amendment the second amendment is a well regulated militia being necessary to the security militia of a free state the right of the people to keep and bear state arms shall not be infringed arms you didn t even get the capitalization correct try reading usca on the constitution or get any other correct version of the constitution this mention of a well regulated militia is what confuses me according to the federalist paper s a well regulated militia has a well defined structure and follows nationally uniform regulations perhaps you should actually read the federalist papers james madison federalist paper besides the advantage of being armed which the americans possess over the people of almost every other nation the existence of subordinate governments to which the people are attached and by which the militia officers are appointed forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of europe which are carried as far as the public resources will bear the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms james madison i annals of congress june the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed a well regulated militia composed of the body of the people trained to arms is the best and most natural defense of a free country alexander hamilton federalist paper on the organization of the militia little more can reasonably be aimed at with respect to the people at large than to have them properly armed and equipped and in order to see that this be not neglected it will be necessary to assemble them once or twice in the course of a year alexander hamilton federalist paper speaking of standing armies if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens little if at all inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow citizens but surely hamilton and madison didn t mean the people when they said people right that s why the amendment refers to the right of the militia your average year old male does not fall into the definition you re right the militia consists of all able bodied males and probably females under current interpretation therefore most members of the militia the one the every gun advocate refers to are not members of a well organized militia and therefore are not directly the amendment does nor refer to well organized it says well regulated i have some targets you may examine if you wish to check how well regulated i am mentioned in the amendment if this amendment wanted to allow every member of the militia to keep and bear arms why did it specificly mention a well organized militia in the same sentence as the right to keep and bear arms correct that s why the right is reserved to the people and that was to insure the people could form a well regulated militia not a well organized militia it could be argued that the first part of the sentence is separate from the last part if so why was it include in the same atomic unit of written what do atomic units have to do with this argument any moron can set h bar c instead of a separate sentence oh i see what your question is why don t you read the federalist papers james madison federalist paper regarding the general welfare clause nothing is more natural nor common than first to use a general phrase and then to explain and qualify it by a recital of particulars but what does madison know about the grammatical style of the nd he only wrote it the amendment also implies that the right to arms has to due with the security of a free state the federalist paper s mention of a well regulated militia gives many examples of how this militia protects the security of a free state all these examples are actions of a very organized force not some john q public with a gun that s obviously because you ve never actually read the federalist papers all that the second amendment clearly states to me is that the people s right to form well regulated militias shall not be infringed that is people have the right to join a well organized militia this well organized militia will of course provide training in how to use arms and in basic military tactics these training members of the militia can keep and bear the arms can t read huh show me where the document says well organized militia lastly reading through the federalist paper s on well organized militia it is very clear that many of the reasons for these militias one reason stated is the protection from a standing army these days the standing army could easily defeat a group consisting of every year old male and female not in the armied forces that is exactly why every person should be allowed to own any weapon currently in use in the armed forces another reason stated for well organized militias is to reduced the need for a standing army well the us armied forces have been a standing army for more than half the history of the us but the major reason is to protect against that very same army it seems to me the whole reason for the second amendment to give the people protection from the us government by guaranteeing that the people can over through the government if necessary is a little bit of an anachronism is this day and age maybe its time to re think how this should be done and amend the constitution appropriately abraham lincoln first inaugural address march this country with its institutions belongs to the people who inhabit it whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their revolutionary right to dismember it or overthrow it rep elbridge gerry of massachusetts spoken during floor debate over the second amendment i annals of congress at august what sir is the use of a militia it is to prevent the establishment of a standing army the bane of liberty whenever governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people they always attempt to destroy the militia in order to raise an army upon their ruins so now we know which category mr rutledge is in he means to destroy our liberties and rights charles scripter cescript phy mtu edu dept of physics michigan tech houghton mi when all government in little as in great things shall be drawn to washington as the centre of all power it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated thomas jefferson in article q tpinnpcn gap caltech edu arc cco caltech edu aaron ray clements writes the second amendment is a guarantee of the right to bear arms clearly and unequivocally without infringement unfortunately the second amendment is not as clear as you state if last part of it is taken along it follows what you have said the problem i have is with the first part of the single sentence which makes up the amendment the second amendment is a well regulated militia being necessary to the security militia of a free state the right of the people to keep and bear state arms shall not be infringed arms you didn t even get the capitalization correct try reading usca on the constitution or get any other correct version of the constitution there are several ways in which one can choose to intrepret any constitutational issue a original intent b subjectively intrepreted accordiong to political whims of the day if we use original intent as the basis for intrepreting the constitution it is clear that the founding fathers intended that the individual citizen be allowed to bear arms similar to those used by soldiers of the day for references i cite federalist papers the embarassing second ammendment yale law review prof stanford levinson sorry i don t have the date handy prof levinson sought to prove that the nd ammendment did not convey an individual right but concluded that it did hence the embarassing in his title report of the subcomittee on the consititution united states sendate th congress second session february u s vs verguido urguidez supreme court case in recent years although this case did not pertain to firearms justice rhenquist notes that the term the people is a term of art conveying individual rights and specifically cited several used nd ammentment included in his opinion title u s code this states that all males between the ages of not part of the organized militia and all female officers of the national guard are part of the unorganized militia feel free to cite any scholarly and historical references you have to support your position i could go on a greater length with my personal proof by assertion however such a technique would carry no more or less weight that your dubious proofs by assertion
talk.politics.guns	re gritz jbs liberty lobby larouche christic insitute libertarian in article c l bc c x cs cmu edu rubinoff cs cmu edu robert rubinoff writes in article u uicvm uic edu u uicvm uic edu writes note that bo gritz was on the populist party ticket with david duke for veep in until he found out that duke was leading he ticket when he withdrew his candidacy so gritz gave up his chance to be vice president of the us just to aviod supporting duke i d hardly call that giving up his chance to be vice president of the us the chance of the populist party ticket winning is essentially nil still it does imply that he doesn t want to be associated with duke robert exactly after all he was in the same party probably just didn t want the bad press that being directly associated with duke would bring conversely is his disdain for david duke supposed to make us ideolize him i mean a stand against neo nazism whoa now that s progressive come on i certainly know that i would refuse and openly denounce my vice presidency if it meant putting him in control stephen white live simply that others may simply live mohandas k gandhi
talk.politics.guns	need info on and suicide for refutation the following is quoted from the tail end of a rather condescending article about paxton quigley that appeared in us snooze and world lies sorry i think it was in the wall street journal and was repeated in the colorado people s daily a student newspaper at the university of colorado at boulder a study of residential gunsot deaths in king county wash found that a gun in the home was times more likely to be used to kill its owner spouse a friend or child than to kill an intruder studies by the western psychiatric institute in pittsburgh found that the mere presence of a gun in the home sharply incresases the likelihood a family member will commit suicide even in the absence of psychiatric illness i have seen these numbers quoted before and i have seen very specific refutation of them quoted as well if someone will be so kind as to email the relevant information i will write a letter to the editor of the co daily which might get published and send a copy to usn wr as well thanx dan dod loki acca nmsu edu liberty or death taylordf ucsu colorado edu send me something even you can t read
talk.politics.guns	re gritz jbs liberty lobby larouche christic insitute libertarian from arf genesis mcs com jack schmidling subject re gritz jbs liberty lobby larouche christic insitute libertarian date apr i can t speak for the organizations you cited but everywhere you look in our society and government one can see the relentless movement toward one world government the fact that the media demeans such charished values as patriotism nationalism and protectionism are some of the clues our porous border both people and trade are an indiciation that we have already lost a great deal of sovergnty and i m sure that people who were big fans of fuedalism pissed and moaned about the emergence of the modern nation state imagine the king allowing serfs their freedom if they could live in the city for a year times change technology changes viable forms of social organization change while concerns about preserving western notions of civil liberties in the face of cultures with very different values is a valid one it s a waste of effort to try to turn back the tide it s much smarter to focus on trying to make sure that the emerging forms of social organization are acceptable than it iss to lament the passing of the old forms
talk.politics.guns	re some more about gun control in article c l n ll ulowell ulowell edu jrutledg cs ulowell edu john lawrence rutledge writes so the phrase the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed must either qualify or explain the phrase a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state stuff deleted since the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed does not describe modify or make less harsh anything and it has nothing to do with grammar or some sort of position or task by process of elimination it must fall into definition and since deals with legal power the same thing the constitution does it must be the correct definition in this case therefore the right of the people to keep and bear arms gives legal power to the well regualated militia and this legal power shall not be infringed ah clarification by obfuscation actually the words a well regulated milita being necessary to the security of a free state is a present participle used as an adjective to modify militia which is followed by the main clause of the sentence the subject being the right the verb shall it asserts that the right to keep and bear arms is essential for maintaining a milita the sentence doesn t restrict the right or state or imply possession of the right by anyone or anything other than the people all it does is make a positive statement regarding a right of the people the people as in you and me as in the first fourth ninth tenth as well as the second amendment the existence of this right is assumed it is not granted by the amendment there is no stated or implied condition relating the right to bear arms to the necessity of a well regulated militia to the security of a free state in other words the entire sentence says that the right to keep and bear arms is unconditional so in effort not to force my views and not to destory our liberties and rights i state that nothing i have written or will write in the matter of liberties and rights is the final word for i am only one person among many and the final word on liberties and rights cleary and irrevocably belongs to the many the final word on liberties and rights should not belong to the many that is why we have a constitution otherwise a tyrrany of the majority can ensue from popular opinion a concept which you should be familiar with from the federalist papers al standard disclaimer
talk.politics.guns	re the slaughter followups to talk politics guns rl russell lawrence kr karl rominger kr i support the right of any citizen with out a criminal history to own and use firearms regardless of race gender and religion rl thanks for admitting that you yourself adhere to an illogical dogma well folks in t p guns want to show how russell s illogical dogma is wrong gary strand opinions stated herein are mine alone and are strandwg ncar ucar edu not representative of ncar ucar or the nsf
talk.politics.guns	randy weaver trial day this was posted to the firearms politics mailing list hi folks wednesday marked day the beginning of the trial opening statements were given by both the prosecution and the defense each side presenting its version of what happenned last august the prosecution argued that weaver and his family moved to idaho in anticipating a battle with the evil federal government the prosecution alleges that weaver sold federal agents sawed off shotguns and later failed to appear for trial despite repeated good faith efforts to get weaver to surrender peacefully weaver refused the shootout erupted when weaver discovered agents on a surveillance mission and began firing according to the prosecution three people were taking an offensive action against an fbi helicopter when an fbi sniper killed vicki weaver the defense argued that weaver and his family moved to northern idaho in to practice their religion in peace they wanted simply to be left alone weaver was induced by federal agents to sell the short barrelled shotgun and did not as the prosecution alleged want to become a regular supplier the defense also argued that the federal government sought to arrest weaver when he wouldn t become an informant it is not specified explicitly but i assume that this is a reference to the white separatist angle of the story we ll know more as things develop the failure to appear in court happenned because weaver was given an incorrect court date and then indicted before that date the shootout occurred when federal agent arthur roderick killed weaver s dog that was in proximity to weaver s son samuel weaver then fired in self defense in the ensuing battle federal agent william degan was killed when his gun was later found there were cases nearby and the gun was on semi automatic however agents were near the body for an extended period of time and could have played with the select fire this will have to be more fully explained finally the defense claims that vicki weaver was only going to look at the body not recover of her son when she was cut down by an fbi sniper prosecution quote weaver wanted that confrontation and he made that confrontation asst u s attorney kim lindquist defense quote the evidence in this case is going to show that this is a case where randy weaver and kevin harris are charged with crimes they didn t commit in order to cover crimes that the government did commit gerry spence nice soundbite notes the idaho statesman claims that weaver supporters heeded a call from spence not to repeat yesterday s protests outside the courthouse however the local nbc affiliate again had footage on the news with supporters including tim again tim claimed he was a skinhead who were ordinary working class people he also claimed he was for white pride not white power outside the courthouse the television crew had an impromptu interview with bo gritz who charged that the neo nazi protestors are exactly what the government wants to smear randy weaver in an affiliated article carried in the idaho statesman about a dozen lawyers were among the or so people packed into the courthouse these lawyers were present to watch gerry spence in action and to perhaps learn something from him some tidbits spence flatly told the jurors that he and his son kent were volunteering their time to represent weaver because they believed in him spence during his minute opening statement repeatedly walked behind weaver and placed his hands on the defendants shoulders weaver broke down and cried during the recounting of his wife s death and spence compared the sawed off shotgun to driving mph when the limit was another good one today thursday april th the prosecution was scheduled to begin presenting evidence drew ron phillips crphilli hound dazixca ingr com senior customer engineer intergraph electronics east evelyn avenue voice mountain view ca fax
talk.politics.guns	randy weaver trail day this was posted to the firearms politics mailing list hi folks thursday april marked day of the trial this day marked the first testimony of the trial deputy u s marshal larry cooper took the stand for the prosecution the short version is that his testimony was consistent with the opening statements for the prosecution cooper testified that he had arrived in spokane washington on august to participate in a surveillance operation with five other deputies near the weaver cabin the team was using night vision equipment for surveillance and split up into two teams of three people the six later met at an observation point above the cabin after this deputies cooper william degan and arthur roderick began a descent to scout further possible surveillance sites cooper told the court that roderick threw two large rocks into a gully to see whether the weaver family dogs would respond striker the weaver s yellow lab started toward them barking loudly roderick led the three in a run from the area they ran through some dense woods into an open area called the fern field with the dog in pursuit by this time kevin harris and samuel weaver had joined the chase the surveillance team had reached a y in the road cooper decided that they should take cover in the woods because otherwise they would be an easy target and might be shot in the back as degan reached the y he spotted randy weaver coming down the road from the cabin ahead weaver was startled but did not fire at this moment striker reached degan and cooper had to fend him off with his gun it is unclear whether this means he clubbed the dog or shot the dog both cooper and degan then took cover in the woods according to cooper kevin harris and samuel weaver continued walking down the road apparently not noticing the two after they had passed by on the road degan got up on one knee raised his gun and shouted stop u s marshal harris then brought the weapon around at hip level and fired he didn t bring the weapon up to eye level i saw bill s arm going back and i knew he had been hit cooper fired at harris and harris went down cooper then brought his weapon to bear on samuel but did not fire at this point cooper then heard two shots to his right samuel weaver looked in the direction of the shots yelled you son of a bitch and ran toward them cooper then realized that shots were coming at him from directly ahead so he fired a three round burst at the cabin at this point he then saw samuel weaver running toward the cabin when cooper reached degan he placed his first two fingers on degan carotid artery counted two or three beats and then his heart stopped shortly thereafter roderick and the other three marshals joined him they then all heard a large burst of gunfire from the area around the cabin on cross examination david nevin questioned the point of throwing rocks into the gulley asking you wanted to lure that dog out so you could shoot that dog didn t you nevin also pointed out that in last september s testimony cooper had claimed that he spotted weaver after the dog had left him cooper claimed that he had gone over the events in his head and decided that thursday s account was correct nevin continued the cross examination by asking what cooper would have done had an armed man dressed in full camouflage jumped out of the woods at him no answer was available friday april marks continued cross examination of cooper notes there was no coverage of protestors drew ron phillips crphilli hound dazixca ingr com senior customer engineer intergraph electronics east evelyn avenue voice mountain view ca fax
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in c sv r hfa news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu brent irvine writes and quotes a lot of stuff unnecessarily in article hydra gatech edu glenns eas gatech edu writes worth posting again hey gang it s not about duck hunting or about dark alleys it s about black clad helmeted and booted troops storming houses and violating civil rights under color of law are you ready to defend your constitution its also about crazy fatigue clad survivalist types blasting the snot out of people who accidentally stray onto his land in the name of self defense don t get too self righteous mr gun toter ain t got a pair of fatigues and i don t blast people wandering aimlessly i ask them what they re doing there i only blast people who display obvious violent intent like black clad men with weapons climbing thru second story windows or people who break down the door instead of knocking or people who knock my house down with tanks and set it afire sound familiar yet riddle me this why the hell are the convicted criminals in ohio getting the kid glove treatment and the bd s are burned alive without a trial put aside who started the blaze i still think any decent shyster can make a case for cruel and unusual punishment playing the sounds of tortured rabbits over the loudspeakers where s the spca in all this oh and that s mister gun toter sir to you bucko just because you choose to abandon your rights leave mine the hell alone thankyouverymuch glenn r stone glenns eas gatech edu impeach clinton reno the case is prima facie
talk.politics.guns	re criminals machineguns in article u uicvm uic edu jason kratz u uicvm uic edu writes people are getting killed by gang violence every day every single day i hear about more people getting killed by gang violence and see some of the weapons that are being confiscated is kratz claiming that he can reliably visually distinguish an m from an ar that he can see the difference between a semi auto and a full auto uzi that he can see the difference between the various versions some full auto some semi auto only of the m if so i d love to hear the details if only because they ll demonstrate that kratz is blowing smoke considering that one can design a gun so that it looks just like another gun yet have very different properties and that that s quite common most kids in my neighborhood were quite young when they figured out that my parents car wasn t much like richard petty s even though it looked just like it except for the paint job things must have been different with kratz sure it s on tv but why does that make a difference no it doesn t but that s irrelevant if visual inspection of the outside worked tv would be acceptable but since it doesn t the fact that it s just as good as seeing in person doesn t mean much andy gave kratz a chance to back down on this in private
talk.politics.guns	weaver trial update i ve been running a daily summary of the randy weaver kevin harris trial from here in boise these summaries are sent primarily to mailing lists however i was wondering if people would be interested in seeing them here post or email drew betz gozer idbsu edu brought into your terminal from the free state of idaho when you outlaw rights only outlaws will have rights spook fodder fema nsa clinton gore insurrection nsc semtex neptunium terrorist cia mi mi kgb deuterium
talk.politics.guns	re need info on and suicide for refutation here s something preston covey professor of ethics at cmu wrote from preston k covey covey andrew cmu edu subject gun stats mortal risks date mon feb est folks hail from the nether world on february th the wall street journal carried a front page article by erik larson entitled armed force i felt a reply was in order to his citation of the notorious scare stat that a gun is times more likely to kill than to protect i sent the following to the wsj gun stats mortal risks preston k covey erik larson s even handed article on paxton quigley armed force wsj cites the world s most notorious statistic regarding guns in the home a pioneering study of residential gunshot deaths in king county washington found that a gun in the home was times more likely to be used to kill its owner spouse a friend or child than to kill an intruder the times stat is everywhere these days it has grown in media lore like the proverbial urban myth it was inflated by one pugilistic talk show pundit to given the shock value of the finding the conclusion of the new england journal of medicine nejm study is remarkably understated the advisability of keeping firearms in the home for protection must be questioned responsible people should indeed question the risks and benefits of bringing a firearm into their home but what we need to know is this what exactly are the risks and benefits the nejm testimony is neither the whole truth about the benefits nor nothing but the truth about the risks further as with motor vehicles we want to know what control do we have over the risks and benefits and as with the risks of cancer or heart disease or auto accidents how can we minimize the risks like raw highway death tolls the nejm stat is not very helpful here the nejm finding purports to inform us but it is framed to warn us off it is widely promulgated in the media as a scare stat a misleading half truth whose very formulation is calculated to prejudice and terrify the frightful statistic screams for itself the risks far outweigh the benefits yes what fool would run these risks if your car were times more likely to kill you a loved one a dear friend or an innocent child than to get you to your destination should you not take the bus uncritical citation puts the good name of statistics in the bad company of lies and damned lies surely we can do better where lives are at stake let s take a closer look at this risky business the times stat of the nejm study is the product of dividing the number of home intruders aggressors justifiably killed in self defense the divisor into the number of family members or acquaintances killed by a gun in the home the dividend the divisor of this risk equation is in the study s five year sample there were intruders and other cases of self defense the dividend is in the study there were accidental deaths criminal homicides and suicides divided by yields there were a total of gun related deaths in king county between and so the study leaves deaths outside of homes unaccounted the nejm s notorious times statistic is seriously misleading on six counts the dividend is misleadingly characterized in the media the or acquaintances of the study who include your friendly drug dealers and neighborhood gang members is equated to friends the implication is that the offending guns target and kill only beloved family members dear friends and innocent children deaths may all be equally tragic but the character and circumstance of both victims and killers are relevant to the risk these crucial risk factors are masked by the calculated impression that the death toll is generated by witless waltons shooting dear friends and friendly neighbors this is criminological hogwash the study itself does not distinguish households or environs populated by people with violent criminal or substance abuse histories where the risk of death is very high versus households inhabited by more civil folk for example people who avoid high risk activities like drug dealing gang banging and wife beating where the risk is very low indeed in actuality negligent adults allow fatal but avoidable accidents and homicides are perpetrated mostly by people with histories of violence or abuse people who are identifiably and certifiably at high risk for misadventure to ignore these obvious risk factors in firearm accidents and homicides is as misleading as ignoring the role of alcohol in vehicular deaths by tautology neither gun deaths nor vehicular deaths would occur without firearms or vehicles but the person and circumstance of the gun owner or driver crucially affect the risk one misleading implication of the way the nejm stat is framed is that the mere presence of a gun in the home is much more likely to kill than to protect and this obscures indeed disregards the role of personal responsibility the typical quotation of this study unlike larson s attributes fatal agency to the gun a gun in the home is times as likely to kill the center to prevent handgun violence a major promulgator of the nejm statistic uses this particular formulation we can dispense with the silly debate about whether it s people or guns that accomplish the killing again by tautology gun deaths would not occur without the guns the question begged is how many deaths would occur anyway without the guns in any case people are the death dealing agents the guns are their lethal instruments the moral core of the personal risk factors in gun deaths are personal responsibility and choice due care and responsibility obviate gun accidents human choice mediates homicide and suicide by gun or otherwise the choice to own a gun need not condemn a person to nejm s high risk pool the gun does not create this risk by itself people have a lot to say about what risk they run with guns in their homes for example graduates of paxton quigley s personal protection course do not run the touted times risk any more than skilled and sober drivers run the same risks of causing or suffering vehicular death as do reckless or drunk drivers undiscriminating actuarials disregard and obscure the role of personal responsibility and choice just as they disregard and obscure the role of socio economic criminological and other risk relevant factors in firearm related death this is why we resent insurance premiums and actuarial consigment to risk pools whose norms disregard our individualities fortunately nothing can consign us to the nejm risk pool but our own lack of choice or responsibility in the matter suicide accounts for of the deaths by gun in the home in the nejm study as against the total deaths by gun in king county including those outside the home in house suicides are of the total death toll which is closer to the roughly proportion found by other studies suicide is a social problem of a very different order from homicide or accidents the implication of the nejm study is that these suicides might not occur without readily available guns it is true that attempted suicide by gun is likely to succeed it is not obviously true that the absence of a gun would prevent any or all of these suicides this is widely assumed or alleged but the preponderance of research on guns and suicide actually shows otherwise that this is wishful thinking in all but a few truly impulsive cases see bruce l danto et al the human side of homicide columbia university press charles rich et al guns and suicide american journal of psychiatry march if suicides were removed from the dividend of the nejm study s risk equation the times stat would deflate to six the inclusion of suicides in the nejm risk equation like the causes durability or interdiction of suicidal intent itself is a profoundly debatable matter quotations of the nejm study totally disregard this issue citations of the nejm study also mislead regarding the estimable rate of justifiable and excusable homicide most measures like the nejm homicide rate are based on the immediate disposition of cases but many homicides initially ruled criminal are appealed and later ruled self defense in the literature on battered women immediate case dispositions are notorious for under representing the rate of justifiable or excusable homicide time s january cover story on women fighting back reported one study s finding that of women who appeal have their murder convictions thrown out time s july cover story on a week of gun deaths reported of the domestic cases as shootings by abuse victims but only of the homicides were reported as self defense in a may update time reported that of the homicides had eventually been ruled self defense in time s sample the originally reported rate of self defense was in error by a factor of four the possibility of such error is not acknowledged by promulgators of the nejm statistic while both the dividend and the product of the nejm risk equation are arguably inflated the divisor is unconscionably misleading the divisor of this equation counts only aggressors who are killed not aggressors who are successfully thwarted without being killed or even shot at the utility of armed self defense is the other side of the coin from the harms done with guns in homes what kind of moral idiocy is it to measure this utility only in terms of killings do we measure the utility of our police solely in terms of felons killed as opposed to the many many more who are otherwise foiled apprehended or deterred should we not celebrate let alone count those cases where no human life is lost as successful armed defenses the question posed to media that cite the nejm scare stat is this why neglect the compendious research on successful armed defense notably by criminologist gary kleck point blank guns and violence in america aldine de gruyter kleck s estimations of the rate and risk of defensive firearm use are based on victimization surveys as well as other studies the rate is high about one million a year and the risk is good gun defenders fare better than anyone either those who resort to other forms of resistance or those who do not resist dividing one million gun defenses a year by annual gun deaths from self defense homicides suicides and accidents yields thus we can construct a much more favorable statistic than the nejm scare stat a gun is times more likely to be used to defend against assault or other crime than to kill anybody of course kleck s critics belittle the dividend of this calculation what is good news for gun defenders is bad news for gun control we should indeed question the basis and method of kleck s high estimation of defensive firearm use as i have questioned the nejm statistic clearly the issue of how to manage mortal risks is not settled by uncritical citation of statistics one thing troubles me still we can hardly escape the unquestioned nejm scare stat in our media but we hardly ever find kleck s good work mentioned even critically larry cipriani l v cipriani att com
talk.politics.guns	senator patty murrey s tax proposal if you haven t heard yet us senator patty murrey a mom in tennis shoes is planning to introduce legislation to tax all handgun transactions and increase dealer licnese costs in order to raise money to cover the costs of un insured shooting victums she plans to start with per year dealer fees and or so depending on the type of firearm per gun transaction she plans to make it federal she was elected in washington state under the trade mark as just a mom in tennis shoes she can be written to via the united states senate washinton dc she is looking for your tennis shoes so if you have a pair please send them to her with your feelings regarding this tax she claims she has heard little from the opposition lets inundate her bigot the definition of a bigot is a conservative winning an argument
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article c stlg fwq news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu brent irvine writes sorry guy you got it wrong atf was pumping tear gas into the compound the branch davidians going along with their apocolyptic faith set their own compound on fire killing all but or so no children survived seeing as how people are willing to quote the fbi quoting cultists who just yesterday were deranged and not to be trusted hmm the fbi or the cultists i think i ll quote the bbc quoting actually voice interview one of the two british survivors he claimed that the fire started when the tanks caused an internal wooden wall roof to collapse knocking over kerosene lamps and that they had no suicide plan maybe true partly true or false alan greig janet a greig uk ac dct dundee institute of technology internet a greig dct ac uk tel int never underestimate the power of human stupidity
talk.politics.guns	government exlanations for waco when you have no principles you can t admit that someone else might and everyone who acts differently from what you expect can only be a nutcase dave feustel n myi feustel netcom com i m beginning to look forward to reaching the allocation of taxes to pay for the interest on the national debt at that point the federal government will be will go out of business for lack of funds
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article c tenu f ns nodak edu green plains nodak edu bill green writes and a few other questions like i said i believe the actions taken in general were proper but i still have some reservations we ve heard a lot of talk about brainwashing in waco but the brainwashing of the general population never ceases to amaze me here is an example of action being taken which results in the worst possible outcome and despite people s deep intuition telling them something is wrong the programming will still cut in and say that the agents probably acted in good faith no they didn t they either did not have enough information to act in good faith or else they acted knowing the risk sums up human stupidity all over and one of these days it will destroy the fucking planet oh sorry didn t think they would respond by launching a strike all our best calculations told us they were bluffing alan greig janet a greig uk ac dct dundee institute of technology internet a greig dct ac uk tel int never underestimate the power of human stupidity
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article apr mcs kent edu mhamilto nimitz mcs kent edu the lawnmowerman writes in article r j l t transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes in article apr mcs kent edu mhamilto nimitz mcs kent edu the lawnmowerman writes oh then i guess that shooting those kind of babies is all right you sick bastard cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet why thanks for your reply to my post by the way i never never ever said that it was right to shoot those kind of babies however it was the branch davidian people in there that insisted on staying there with their savior yeah right budy boy because he had brain washed them into believing that what ever he says is the truth even if means that they are to give up their lives for his cause therefore it is davids fault and not the atf s who gave them to days to get out this was days to many for me and for goodness sake if they had fired a cruise missile at the compound more people would have come out alive it was obvious to anyone with the remotest contact with reality that such an outcome was likely not just possible however the fire started as mr lawnmower you seem to have already entered your own little virtual reality i guess you can t be expected to understand things in the real universe alan greig janet a greig uk ac dct dundee institute of technology internet a greig dct ac uk tel int never underestimate the power of human stupidity
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article c siaj ks news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes so why didn t the bd s leave when the gas was first introduced much earlier in the morning didn t they care about the children why didn t they release the children weeks ago because most of the children were with their parent s do you understand that concept here s a bunch of people who believe in their minds that the forces of satanic evil are outside and you expect them to hand over their own children were you born that stupid or does it take a lot of effort alan greig janet a greig uk ac dct dundee institute of technology internet a greig dct ac uk tel int never underestimate the power of human stupidity
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article apr guinness idbsu edu betz gozer idbsu edu andrew betz writes in article c rynw iz news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes and i suppose the fbi also prevented them from coming out with their hands up while national tv cameras watch watch from where two miles away far enough away that whatever really happenned must be explained through the vengeful filter of a humiliated agency that said quote enough is enough as i understand it was considered unsafe for the tv networks to get any closer surely the networks can judge the risks of reporting for themselves i haven t noticed cnn being banned from baghdad hotels yet despite the all too real risk of having a cruise missile land in the lobby incidentally has that ever been explained or are we to assume that out of the whole of the city an off course missile just happened to hit that hotel at a probability of about in some very large number unsafe for who i wonder alan greig janet a greig uk ac dct dundee institute of technology internet a greig dct ac uk tel int never underestimate the power of human stupidity
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article apr guinness idbsu edu betz gozer idbsu edu andrew betz writes betz gozer idbsu edu brought into your terminal from the free state of idaho when you outlaw rights only outlaws will have rights spook fodder fema nsa clinton gore insurrection nsc semtex neptunium terrorist cia mi mi kgb deuterium if you really want to trigger the scanners then move the keywords above the signature start bit you ll only trip them once in a sig plus every so often it will flag one for human intervention just to be sure i might not be being serious alan greig janet a greig uk ac dct dundee institute of technology internet a greig dct ac uk tel int never underestimate the power of human stupidity
talk.politics.guns	re who s next mormons and jews this is a stretch in fact a great many of the persecuted indians were christian a great many it would be simpler to state the obvious that white people wanted land the indians dominated or threatened i really don t think the government cared a hill of beans about the indians religion my native american girlfriend asks if the government really doesn t care a hill of beans about our religion how come they re still busting us for it in oregon washington and a few other places you d be a christian too if the u s army marched you into church at gunpoint are you saying that the indians who became christians did so because the us army marched them into church at gunpoint this will be news to the indians of the great lakes and upper mississippi basin of the southwest of mexico and south america who converted even before there was such a thing as the us are you saying that indians are incapable of coming to a decision themselves about their religion without being forced to at gunpoint what about the christian cherokees who were given the boot by the us government after the civil war because the cherokee nation gave mild support to the confederacy since they themselves owned black slaves no reducing it all to a matter of religion is to support a much too narrow view of history i ve never heard of a single treaty whether broken by the us government or not were any not that said if you guys convert to christianity you get to keep all the land you claim no treaties were invariably about land it meant ceding indian claims to the government sometimes in return the us government promised the hunter gatherer tribes and plenty of tribes were already farming for centuries but we don t hear about non plains indians in movies food and training in return for taking up a non nomadic existence promises of course which all to often proved empty
talk.politics.guns	re riddle me this in article r lp inn mojo eng umd edu chuck eng umd edu chuck harris wa uqv writes in article apr jupiter sun csd unb ca j jupiter sun csd unb ca fuller m writes does a not harmful gassing mean that you can with a little willpower stay inside indefinitely without suffering any serious health problems if so why was cs often employed against tunnels in vietnam what is the difference anyway cs tear gas was used in vietnam because it makes you wretch so hard that your stomach comes out thru your throat well not quite that bad but you can t really do much to defend yourself while you are blowing cookies chuck harris wa uqv chuck eng umd edu interesting after several hours worth of exposure do you still posess the presence of mind to be able to determine how to escape from an inferno surrounding you in other words is it possible that the prolonged gassing disoriented the wackos enough that possibility of escape was rendered questionable
talk.politics.guns	cost benefit analysis was fbi director s statement in article apr twisto eng hou compaq com costley solo eng hou compaq com brett costley said sigh i just don t understand why they couldn t have waited koresh co out jlpicard austin ibm com uh maybe because it was costing hundreds of thousands of dollars a day to just sit and wait yeah we don t want to spend too much money preserving lives after all escpecially when they re all just a bunch of crazy fanatic cultists anyway instead of normal people the above is supposed to be dripping with sarcasm but i m too burned out right now get it burned out ha ha to tell if it s working look folks what david koresh and his followers were was broken it takes a certain amount of flexibility and insanity to survive in this world and they didn t have enough of it and that wasn t their fault so please stop dancing on their graves okay william december starr wdstarr athena mit edu
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article c sv hjy news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu brent irvine writes in article r j n t transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes in article r tp em bigboote wpi edu mfrhein wpi wpi edu michael frederick rhein writes napalm then let the wood stove inside ignite it as someone else has pointed out why would the stove be in use on a warm day in texas do you eat all your food cold ever hear of electric ovens or microwaves very popular electric stoves outside metro areas especially ever hear about cutting off the electricity that was done how effective is an electric stove then al standard disclaimer
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article c tenu f ns nodak edu green plains nodak edu bill green writes just to shed some light on the fire it was widely reported ap etc that there were several witnesses to bd folks starting the fires it has also been reported that the fires broke out in several places at once which rules out a bradley knocking over a lamp etc as the cause widely reported eh remember this has had a news blackout since day the fbi is the single sole source of these rumors it may be the truth but it may not be we may never know we must question it though why no media coverare what were they hiding what i would like to see is some serious discussion of this incident i believe the moves made were right and proper but i still have some problems with some of the tactics after watching the abc special on it tonight as well as cnn and nightline i question some of the atf and fbi actions could it have been possible to have taken koresh outside the compound at some time before the feb th raid it would seem so could a further wait have resulted in a different outcome they would still be alive today another day is another chance were fbi actions blaring loudspeakers etc the right course of action i think it contributed to the outcome folks that are sleep deprived tend not to think clearly and a few other questions like i said i believe the actions taken in general were proper but i still have some reservations i feel strongly they were not proper one other point i m no fan of janet reno but i do like the way she had the balls to go ahead and take full responsibility seems like the waffle boy had problems figuring out just where he stood on the issue as expected if it had come out well he would not have hesitated to take full credit jim jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article c tki c s rice edu fontenot ravl rice edu dwayne jacques fontenot writes in c tenu f ns nodak edu green plains nodak edu bill green writes just to shed some light on the fire it was widely reported ap etc that there were several witnesses to bd folks starting the fires it has also been reported that the fires broke out in several places at once which rules out a bradley knocking over a lamp etc as the cause consider this the bds had more than one lamp the tanks made more than one hole in the building did anyone else notice on the video that it appeared that wherever there was smoke coming out of the building there was a tank nearby the fact that it appears that fires started in several places does not rule out anything i watched it live and have re watched it several times and from the press vantage point there was only one starting point visible where the tank punched in on the windward side and the winds whipped that fire across the whole dry wooden structure in minutes faned by the mph gusts and the hueys if there were other fires started they were not visible nor were they needed to cause the flame progression i observed also where are these several witnesses the way i heard it from the fbi spokesman on cnn the witnesses were all people driving the tanks all witnesses get thier paychecks from the fbi one other point i m no fan of janet reno but i do like the way she had the balls to go ahead and take full responsibility seems like the waffle boy had problems figuring out just where he stood on the issue too bad nothing will happen to her or him the fbi and the media have done their job well yep they media has endorsed the fbi version without question sad dwayne jacques fontenot jim jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov
talk.politics.guns	re re guns gone good riddance iftccu talk politics guns jason kratz u uicvm uic edu pm apr surrender your arms soon enough officers will be around to collect them resistance is useless they will overwhelm you one at a time listen buddy if you re going to quote star trek get the quote right it was resistance is futile get it right the next time sounds like a vogon quote to me perhaps you should read more widely instead of watching that idiot box rick
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors from article qvjh innh l hp col col hp com by dduff col hp com dave duff nut case panics jumps the gun on the net before getting facts straight brilliant i like it dave holden phys dept email keele university phd uk ac keele seq keele staffs england x
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no writes i don t remember the figures exactly but there were about deaths in texas in that was caused by guns this is more than those beeing killed in car accidents yes there could be that low sentences or high poverty could influence the figures but they re still pretty high right i also believe texas has some of the most liberal gun laws in usa in texas you cannot carry a handgun period either concealed or open and your numbers are misleading they include suicides and accidents the real number from the department of public safety murders non neg hom car fatalities texas only has liberal gun laws as far as purchasing a firearm aside from that it s probably more restrictive than most states as far as carry goes one state don t remember which texas tried to impose a rule that you could only buy one gun each month think you all know what happened the state was virginia and the law passed i respect the right to defend yourself but that right should not inflict on other people that right only inflicts on those who threaten my rights to life liberty the pursuit of happiness etc in the first place i am not a criminal and i don t indiscriminately fire my weapons at random so please explain how i am inflicting anything on other people this is not a signature it s merely a computergenerated text to waste bandwith and to bring down the evil internet thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no aaron arc cco caltech edu
talk.politics.guns	re rewording the second amendment ideas dfo vttoulu tko vtt fi foxvog douglas writes nerve gas and mustard gas are well defined other poisonous gasses should be individually banned only if it can be shown that there is no use not related to weaponry licenses should be available for research purposes on such chemicals i am not a lawyer but these ideas could certainly be a basis for definitions i hope you realize how trivial it is to manufacture these compounds given about k in lab equipment and chemicals which are commercially available and given the knowledge that i have graduating bs ch i could synthesize enough of these compounds to make a serious dent in the population of several major us cities as also noted the knowledge is there for the production of nuclear weapons it s not even that restricted the only thing is the expense now i m not going around making these things but it s not cause of any law i simply don t get any marginal benefit out of killing anyone any law you enact in this respect is only going to give you the ability to add a charge against someone who does make and use said weapons in the case of chemical agents i seriously doubt that you would even know that someone had set up a lab until after the weapons had been used part of the trouble with the chemical weapons ban treaty between the us and the ussr is that many of the precursors to chemical weapons such as gb and sarin etc is that they have very valid commercial uses and it is very easy to divert those precursors to chemical weapons manufacture without anyone knowing about it dan sorenson dod z dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what i read not what i say don t blame them doug foxvog douglas foxvog vtt fi aaron arc cco caltech edu
talk.politics.guns	reference needed does anybody have any solid data on how many legally owned versus illegally owned firearms are used in crime i know the number of legally owned guns used in crime is small but i would like a number and a reference if possible data should be e mailed to me open discussion should be directed to talk politics guns seth unlike cats dogs never scratch you when you wash them they just become very sad and try to figure out what they did wrong dave barry seth eliot dept of material science and engineering carnegie mellon univerity pittsburgh pa arpa eliot cmu edu or se andrew cmu edu bitnet se andrew cmccvb
talk.politics.guns	need senate bill numbers and house resolution numbers sorry for posting this here but noone has replied to my post from the politics side of the group i want to get involved in the fight to save our gun rights but first i need to get a little more educated i ve been reading all the magzines and books i can get my hands on and sifting through hundreds of messages here in the internet i want to obtain a complete list of senate bill and house resolution names numbers can anyone tell me how where to obtain this info surely there has to be a way to obtain copies of anti gun legislation from those s in washington any help is appreciated peter d nesbitt air traffic controller pnesbitt mcimail com oakland bay tracon cbr f pilot nra member ccx f s w magnum carrier
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article c tlxr xq news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes in article r g inneah clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com jim de arras writes in article c sou lnb news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes in article apr guinness idbsu edu betz gozer idbsu edu andrew betz writes in article c rynw iz news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes and i suppose the fbi also prevented them from coming out with their hands up while national tv cameras watch watch from where two miles away far enough away that whatever really happenned must be explained through the vengeful filter of a humiliated agency that said quote enough is enough please tell me what you think would have happened had the people come out with their hands up several weeks ago it didn t happen and who is responsible for it not happening certainly not the children koresh was calling the shots he was talking with his lawyer and the fbi since others were released safely there is no sane reason for keeping the children inside the compound the fbi and koresh were calling the shots and there were very sane reasons for keeping the children if they let them go the parents would never see them again that is not an easy choice in spite of you cold attitude about it scenario that is simplest and most plausible i do not generally believe in conspiracy theories that involve complicated and unlikely scenarios the fbi sent letters to martin luther king s wife insinuating that mlk was having an affair again please tell us exactly how much you trust our supposedly benevolent government more than someone who would not release children from the compound obviously you are an authority worshiper not at all are you a koresh worshiper i am a constitution worshiper you quite obviously eat anything the authorities feed you without doubt which makes you no different that a koresh worshiper i e more than david koresh vernon howell jesus christ i saw lengthy excerpts from an australian documentary made in that clearly showed that this was a cult give me a camera and time with you and i can present excerpts that show you to be a cult leader guarenteed thanks for my laugh of the day definitely a very silly supposition if you do not believe this you are truly naive it is not only possible it is easy i worked in the broadcast profession at a network station in the late s i know what i m saying here embarrasing footage is easy to get add a little sinister music and the right voice over and i ll have you mother agreeing to commit you you should at least view the whole documentary before you claim it as a source i would if i could the news show that showed the lengthy excerpts also had interviews with the filmmaker who made the documentary who basically confirmed what was shown in the excerpts from the time he spent at the compound in the news shows were looking for excerpts which backed their position do you think they would show excerpts which disproved their points i am not pleased with the batf handling of the affair i think they bungled it badly from the start but i don t think they are responsible for the fire which started in two different places two places eh you saw this or did the wonderful fbi tell you this i saw one place i believe that this was reported by local radio reporters on site a fire started in a three story tower at the same time as the two story window shown on the tv coverage the reports of multi starts came solely from the fbi anyone observing the fire from the available video would be hard pressed to see more than one point of fire which spread across the compound as a uniform rate the batf is by no means devoid of fault in the handling of this affair but to suggest that they may have intentionally started the fire is ludicrous i suspect that there were plenty of camerapeople willing to risk small arms fire to get some good footage these people were told to get the hell out of camera range why couldn t answer this one eh this is the most important question of all it is the root cause of all the other suspicion i thought about mentioning how reagan and the military treated the press in grenada and how that set the precedent but decided it wasn t worthy of discussion if the news reporter got shot you can bet his family would sue the government for letting him into the danger area no reported has ever sued the government for such a situation they know the dangers remember the batf invited the initial coverage and how about a simple remote controlled camera or two there were ways to provide media access the fbi obviously just didn t want any the root cause of suspicion in my mind is why people wouldn t flee a building that had numerous exits during the minutes time it took to burn down or why didn t they flee hours earlier when the tear gas was first introduced i can find no rational explanation for their behavior i can find several tear gas and smoke making it impossible to remove the barricades flames blocking exits to the saferooms perhaps the gun shots were from the fbi keeping them pinned in who knows jim jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article c tngt news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes in article r vqinneb clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com jim de arras writes in article c spov lre news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes in article r qsrinnc clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com jim de arras writes in article c s ds j news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes i agree that they deserved a trial they had more than days to come out and get their trial they chose to keep the children with them and to stay inside they chose to stay inside even after they were tear gassed i do not find these actions rational even noriega was smart enough to give up and go for the trial he deserved mr roby you are a government sucking heartless bastard unworthy of comment but apparently true my opinion only of course so your opinion is truth i see still mastering the language eh notice the use of apparently humans died yesterday humans who would not have died if the fbi had not taken the actions they did that is the undeniable truth i cried for them nor would they have died if they had come out with their hands empty that is undeniable truth no it is not it is possible the fbi planned for this to happen and the gunfire heard was the fbi keeping the folks inside i m not proposing this as the way it went down but just to point out that it s not undeniable that if they walked out yesterday they would be alive today you can believe that if you wish it is undeniable however that people have left the compound unharmed and alive earier in the standoff and since their leader was preaching that they would have an apocalypse you can not say undeniably that there wouldn t have been a mass suicide if the fbi had simply stayed outside and waited another days i m not denying that at all but every day is another chance for a good ending why push it mr roby you are going to die anyway why not today every moment of life is precious my heart bleeds just as much as yours for the children who were never released given days of ample opportunities to do so my heart also bleeds for people so blinded by religious devotion to not have the common sense to leave the compound when tanks came up and started dropping in tear gas early in the morning my heart bleeds for no one you are the bleeding heart and i m sure beyond any possible doubt that you do not feel for those people as i do you can not say the heartless things you have said if you did i am the heartless bleeding heart you are not making sense no you are the heartless bleeding heart a flaming liberal who cares deeply who feels your pain you seem to have no concern that someone would keep children inside this compound when they had days to let them out that sounds pretty heartless to me you have continually raised this issue without any understanding of the bonds between parent and child it is not easy to say a final goodbye to your children i do not think i could do it either if that makes me heartless so be it how many children do you have i have three i just heard on the news that some of the survivors regret they hadn t stayed in the inferno to prove their loyalty to koresh this makes me sad and sick it just makes me sad i never claimed koresh was an angel you seem to say they got what they deserved i do not think this however if they did set the fire which started in more than one place and spread very quickly then they got what they wanted and put into motion themselves they got what they wanted what kind of creature are you that you can believe this have you ever heard of jonestown the sad thing is the people inside the compound were the authority worshipers and their only authority was koresh howell if these people were able to think for themselves there would likely be a lot more survivors today koresh preached a fiery apocalypse as early as last year i made the same authority worshiper point about you a few lines back and once again jonestown however sick it was was doing ok until the authorities showed up and pushed a fragile person over the edge a bull in a china shop i see the batf is going to be investigated by the justice dept and likely by arlen spectre and congress this is good they have bungled the affair from the start we agree on this now lets have your god the fbi investigated too by all means the fbi should be investigated too btw i thought the second ammendment was god nope the constitution in total is for me if you think the rkba is all i m about you misjudge me jim jmd handheld com jim jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov
talk.politics.guns	re blast them next time in article r l dv usenet ins cwru edu oldham ces cwru edu daniel oldham writes what happened in waco is not the fault of the batf if they would of had the proper equipment and personal then they could of captured the with the wod and the increased crime in the streets the batf is needed more now then ever if they blast away a few good fokes then that is with the arms build up in waco they needed to hit that compound with mega fire power they could of gone in there blasting and killed a few i hope this is a joke if not here s my response the batf has a history of no knock raids with poor evidence often resulting in innocent people being killed or suffering injury to person or property i will not support the batf until they clean up their act maybe as to equipment the batf has damn near anything it wants their faults were in intelligence military and civilian definitions apply tactics attacking during daylight methodology the fbi stated that it is against government policy to assault a position where there are non combatants potential hostages without attempting negotiations first and legality the batf s jurisdiction is taxes on firearms and tobacco they are a branch of the department of the treasury they have very curiously backed away from their claims of illegal weaponry to push the child abuse charges the batf has no jurisdiction over non firearms tobacco issues and the charges of child abuse had been investigated in the past with no violence and no validation this was a clear case of first the batf then the fbi having watched too many rambo movies my opinion is that the agent in charge should be charged with executing an illegal raid criminal negligence murder civil rights violations and breaking his her oath to uphold and defend the constitution of the us the warrant should be unsealed to reveal to the public what justification the batf thought it had in committing an armed assault on american citizens and while on the issue of investigating this issue the randy weaver case and the johnny lawmaster case should be investigated for batf wrongdoing james btw if the batf came busting in my windows with concussion grenades you could damn well bet i would return fire to the utmost of my ability james s cochrane when in danger or in doubt run in this space gt a prism gatech edu circles scream and shout for rent
talk.politics.guns	re impeach clinton reno in a previous article gs prism gatech edu glenn r stone says fact both janet reno and bill clinton have admitted responsibility even grief over the deaths in waco fact regardless of who started the fire there are more than enough things on tape to make a civil rights case against these two cruel and unusual punishment dying tortured rabbits on tape come to mind fact it is a federal felony to infringe civil rights under color of law where death is involved this offense carries a penalty of life in prison fact impeachment is allowable for high crimes and misdemeanors anything that s a federal felony should qualify conclusion we have no choice if we are an honest people but to impeach mr clinton and remove reno from office i heartily agree now that the batf warrant has been unsealed it is clear that clinton and reno supported an illegal raid did they not know this no authority for a no knock raid no authority to use helicopters no authority to search for a drug lab and apparently not even any authority to search for automatic weapons days of government lies
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in r cat a geraldo cc utexas edu mikey ccwf cc utexas edu writes cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes mfrhein wpi wpi edu michael frederick rhein writes as someone else has pointed out why would the stove be in use on a warm day in texas do you eat all your food cold thank you for pointing out the obvious to people who so clearly missed it i can t stand it when people s first reaction is to defend the aggressor minor quibble the assualt and it was one began near dawn the fire did not break out for several hours i find it highly unlikely that the bd would be cooking lunch while armored vehicles punch holes in their house and are pumping in tear gas the lantern story makes more sense except the fire seemed to spread too quickly even given the nature of the buildings and the very high winds and it was daylight but i guess in the innner recesses it could be dark shutters probably closed as well which puts us back to the fbi did it or the bd did it or some other screw up occured which is quite possible the problem with the fbi as a monolithic entity doing it is that it requires everybody involved to keep their mouths shut while they tended to behave like total idiots that does not make them homocidal maniacs either and if it was one nutcase agent then it serves no purpose to blame the whole agency i can believe that a real nut case like a koresh would start such a fire but i m far from convinced he actually did so then again i rarely go off making blanket condemnations and pronouncments within hours of a very confusing incident over miles away semper fi jammer jim miller texas a m university and i don t speak for uh which is too bad because they could use the help become one with the student billing system be the student billing system power finds its way to those who take a stand stand up ordinary man rik emmet gil moore mike levine triumph
talk.politics.guns	batf fbi revenge jason kratz writing jk if they had rocket launchers and such as the press and gov claims why jk shouldn t they have done something what possible use would a religious cult jk have for a rocket launcher also is child abuse covered by the bill of jk rights this is taken a little out of context and i m not flaming jason it s just that this was the proverbial straw i grow a little weary of the allegations here the media people on the street that the bd s had all these horrible illegal weapons and other paraphenalia of destruction capable of blowing tanks feet into the air and then without missing a beat discuss how the bd s willfully commited mass suicide or killed their own less fanatical and then commited mass suicide etc etc if the bd s had all these things and intended to blow up their abode blow up waco blow up the entire country or whatever suits your fancy what happened to all the violence they were supposed to unleash why wouldn t they have gone out in the proverbial blaze of glory and come out shooting with an attitude of let s take as many of those dogs as possible with us instead they seemed to have preferred death to whatever they thought was in store for them at the government s hands it s totally immaterial whether they were all crazy all fanatics all followers of the antichrist haters of the government practicers of weird lifestyles or whatever they must have felt that they were being pressured into renouncing their beliefs however how strange or lunatic those beliefs might appear to you and me there is much precedent for such devotion to cause my conclusion at this point is that the authorities seriously misread their danger to society else why did the bd s not do as suggested above and or chose this incident to make some heinous point or satisfy some internal agenda up to and including ag j renbo using this as an opportunity to assert her manhood some people really do believe it is better to die than be subjected to what they perceive as the godless government when i force myself to not judge others by my own personal standards and beliefs i can almost admire their stand i surely believe in the constitution but i don t know that i have such strength of conviction as evidenced by the bd s olx obesa non cantatis ye olde bailey bbs v bis v bis houston texas yob sccsi com home of alt cosuard
talk.politics.guns	re rewording the second amendment ideas chemical weapons are not concidered a very effectiv weapon against millitary forces on civillians on the other hand that s one good reason for banning it you need vast amounts of chemicals to be affective so the best reason to have use it is price that s why it s called the poor mans a bomb any thoughts on bio weapons if this discusion is about civillians having chem weapons what should they use them on rob a bank this is not a signature it s merely a computergenerated text to waste bandwith and to bring down the evil internet thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no
talk.politics.guns	re ax the atf in article r ito t transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes it s hard to know what who to believe however the letter i received from the batf in response to one i sent to bentsen said that there was a search warrant and an arrest warrant check again you may find that the arrest warrant was issued after the first firefight the letter implies that both warrants were issued before the feb th shootout but doesn t say so exlicitly ack don
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card in r efjinn jj gap caltech edu arc cco caltech edu writes thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no writes i also believe texas has some of the most liberal gun laws in usa in texas you cannot carry a handgun period either concealed or open currently there is a bill before the texas legislature that would make it legal for some ordinary folks to carry concealed weapons i don t have the details sorry semper fi jammer jim miller texas a m university and i don t speak for uh which is too bad because they could use the help become one with the student billing system be the student billing system power finds its way to those who take a stand stand up ordinary man rik emmet gil moore mike levine triumph
talk.politics.guns	re wi and il firearms law questions question as i understand it in evanston il they have a ordinance banning handguns is there any way to get around this provision why don t you call the city and ask oak park also has an illegal handgun ban as well but does allow those with a collectors ffl to possess collectible handguns what would the penalty if you were found out be probably a fine in practical terms what if you used said handgun in a defensive shooting in your apartment there how would the city law apply to your impending trial for the shooting it wouldn t impede your defense at all there was an actual incident in oak park where a gas station owner engaged in a shootout with a handgun the grand jury decided not to presecute on the other hand a black man used an illegally owned handgun in oak park to defend himself and the village tried to make an example out of him an nra director who lived there made a stink about this and it was decided not to charge the guy of course pissing off anti gun police thugs has it s own drawbacks like when the oak park police chief came to his house and told him this is stepping over the line this could get dangerous for you whereupon the few black oak park police officers watched over his house to ensure that the white anti gun police chief and his anti gun cronies wouldn t f ck with him his home or family also what is il state law concerning short barreled weapons short barreled shotgun is what i would be interested in if a handgun were not available either that or a shortened mm carbine ie colt marlin l v cipriani states that the any other weapon category is allowed but the exact relationship between an ithaca auto burgular which i believe is in the any other weapon category and a chopped barrel h k hk class for sure is not clear to me one more thing what is the chance of getting a ccw permit in il without being rich or famous or related to the mayor in your dreams buddy as long as democrats reign in chicago illinois residents will always be disarmed and helpless in the streets politicians get around this by provisions in the law that allow them to carry concealed weapons voters in chicago are too stupid to vote these a holes out of office because the dems are always in power the illinois supreme court is always tilted to the democratic party s views on guns all candidates supported by political consultant david axelrod are anti gun which explains anti rkba crook county states attorney jack ass o malley being a so called republican get rid of the chicago democrats get rid of their members on the il judiciary and you got a fighting chance of a preemption law and a ccw law
talk.politics.guns	re need senate bill numbers and house resolution numbers try the firearms archive larry cipriani s instructions follow by the way thanks for the archive larry this year is the rd congress directory from watson yktnews watson ibm com newsgate watson ibm com news ans net howland r reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net dtix dt navy mil mimsy cbvox att com lvc thu apr article of talk politics guns path watson yktnews watson ibm com newsgate watson ibm com news ans net howland r reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net dtix dt navy mil mimsy cbvox att com lvc from lvc cbvox att com newsgroups talk politics guns subject information about the anonymous ftp rkba archive message id apr cbnews cb att com date apr gmt sender magnum mimsy umd edu organization ideology busters inc lines this is the index file for the anonymous ftp rkba archive the archive site has been moved and is now at godiva nectar cs cmu edu in the directory usr anon pub firearms politics rkba this archive is accessible only via anonymous ftp instructions for anonymous ftp are at the end of this file an email server is available at another site and as a result is not completely in sync with this archive to get the index for the rkba email server send get rkba index as the body of a message to listserv mainstream com for help send help if you have any additions or suggestions for improvement to the rkba archive please let me know larry cipriani att cbvox lvc or l v cipriani att com file rkba report of the subcommittee on the constitution of the committee on the judiciary united states senate ninety seventh congress second session february file congress nd hcr house concurrent resolution by mr crane january expressing the sense of the congress with respect to the right of all americans to keep and bear arms in defense of life or liberty and in pursuit of all other legitimate endeavors file congress nd hjr house joint resolution by mr major owens march proposing an amendment to the constitution of the united states repealing the second amendment to the constitution includes comments by owens entered into the congressional record file congress nd hr house bill by mr goodling february to amend title united states code to prohibit transfer of firearm to or possession of a firearm by a person convicted of a drug crime and to provide enhanced penalties for possession of a firearm during a drug crime file congress nd hr house bill by mr scheuer march to end the use of steel jaw leghold traps on animals in the united states file congress nd hr house bill by mr staggers march to amend title united states code to provide for the establishment of a national hotline which a federal firearms licensee may contact to learn if receipt of a handgun by a prospective transferee is prohibited and to require such a licensee to contact the hotline before the transfer of a handgun to a nonlicensee file congress nd hr house bill by mr gibbons march to prohibit the importation of semiautomatic assault weapons large capacity ammunition feeding devices and certain accessories file congress nd hr house bill by mr smith of florida april to amend title united states code to prohibit certain handguns which are unsuitable for lawful sporting purposes file congress nd hr house bill by mr hughes january to prohibit the possession transfer and certain exports of restricted weapons the manufacture of firearms capable of accepting a silencer or bayonet without alteration and the possession and transfer of large capacity ammunition feeding devices and for other purposes file congress nd hr house bill by mrs collins january to provide for the mandatory registration of handguns file congress nd hr house bill by mr cardin july to amend the public health service act to establish an entitlement of states and certain political subdivisions of states to receive grants for the abatement of health hazards associated with lead based paint and to amend the internal revenue code of to impose an excise tax and establish a trust fund to satisfy the federal obligations arising from such entitlement this bill would impose upto a pound tax on all new lead and pound tax on recycled lead file congress nd hr house bill by mr dornan january to amend the animal welfare act to prohibit dog racing and dog training involving the use of live animals as visual lure and to make such act applicable to facilities that are used for dog racing or dog race training file congress nd hr house bill the violent crime prevention act of file congress nd hr house bill by mr marlenee january to protect persons engaged in a lawful hunt within a national forest establishing an administrative civil remedy against individuals or groups intentionally obstructing impeding or interfering with the conduct of a lawful hunt and for other purposes file congress st hr house bill by mr gingrich february to provide swift and certain punishment for criminals in order to deter violent crime and rid america of illegal drug use file congress nd hr house bill by mr weiss january to prohibit the manufacture transfer or importation of caliber and caliber ammunition file congress nd hr house bill by mr rangel january to prohibit certain exports of fully automatic or semiautomatic assault weapons file congress nd hr house bill by mr cunningham april to amend title i of the omnibus crime control and safe streets act of to deny grant funds to states unless law enforcement officers are permitted to carry concealed firearms file congress nd hr house bill by mr schumer july to amend title united states code to expand the scope of the multiple firearms sales reporting requirement and to require that persons comply with state and local firearms licensing laws before receiving a federal license to deal in firearms file congress nd hr house bill by mr schumer august to impose criminal penalties upon the failure of a federal firearms licensee to report to appropriate authorities the loss or theft of a firearm from the inventory or collection of the licensee file congress nd hr house bill by mr feighan to require a waiting period before the purchase of a handgun also known as the brady bill file congress nd hr house bill by mr russo january to amend the internal revenue code of to provide that the excise tax on handguns will be transferred to a trust fund to be used for purposes of providing compensation to victims of crime and for other purposes file congress nd s senate bill by mr hatch january to provide procedures for calling federal constitutional conventions under article v for the purpose of proposing amendments to the united states constitution file congress nd s senate bill by mr lautenberg march to amend title united states code to permanently prohibit the possession of firearms by persons who have been convicted of a violent felony and for other purposes file congress nd s senate bill to require a waiting period before the purchase of a handgun file congress nd s senate bill by mr gore june to establish in the government printing office an electronic gateway to provide public access to a wide range of federal databases containing public information stored electronically file congress nd s senate bill by mr chafee june to prohibit the manufacture importation exportation sale purchase transfer receipt possession or transportation of handguns and ammunition with certain exceptions file congress nd s senate bill by mr mitchell september to amend title united states code to require a waiting period before the purchase of a handgun file congress st s senate bill by mr metzenbaum february to control the sale and use of assault weapons file congress nd s senate bill by mr moynihan january to prohibit the manufacture transfer or importation of caliber and caliber and millimeter ammunition file congress nd s senate bill by mr symms march to amend chapter title united states code to provide clarification of limitations on controls of firearms and to prohibit the use of federal funds to political subdivisions which implement certain gun control ordi nances file congress st s senate bill by mr deconcini to amend chapter of title united states code regarding assault weapons file congress nd s senate bill by mr moynihan april to prohibit the importation of semiautomatic assault weapons large capacity ammunition feeding devices and certain accessories file congress nd s senate bill by mr metzenbaum april to amend title united states code to authorize the consumer product safety commission to regulate the risk of injury associated with firearms file congress nd s senate bill by mr packwood april the amend the internal revenue code of to exempt small manufacturers producers and importers from the firearms excise tax file congress rd hcr house concurrent resolution by mr crane january expressing the sense of the congress with respect to the right of all americans to keep and bear arms in defense of life or liberty and in the pursuit of all other legitimate endeavors file congress rd hjr house joint resolution by mr owens january proposing an amendment to the constitution of the united states repealing the second amendment to the constitution file congress rd hr house bill by mr mazolli january to amend title united states code to require a waiting period before the purchase of a handgun file congress rd hr house bill by mr torricelli january to amend title united states code to prohibit the transfer of or more handguns to an individual in any day period file congress rd hr house bill by mrs collins january to provide for the manufacturer importer or dealer of a handgun or an assault weapon to be held strictly liable for damages that result from the use of the handgun or assault weapon file congress rd hr house bill by mr reynolds february to provide for the manufacturer or importer of a handgun or an assault weapon to be held strictly liable for damages that result from the use of the handgun or assault weapon and to amend the internal revenue code of to increase the excise tax on firearms and use a portion of the revenues from such tax to assist hospitals in urban areas to provide medical care to gunshot victims who are not covered under any health plan file congress rd hr house bill by mr schumer february to provide for a waiting period before the purchase of a hadgun and for the establishment of a national instant criminal background check system to be contacted by firearms dealers before the transfer of any firearm file congress rd s senate bill by mr moynihan january to prohibit the importation of semiautomatic assault weapons large capacity ammunition feeding devices and certain accessories file congress rd s senate bill by mr moynihan january to amend section of title united states code to require the keeping of records with respect to dispositions of ammunition and to require a study of the use and possible regulation of sales of ammunition file congress rd s senate bill by mr moynihan january to amend chapter of title united states code to prohibit the manufacture transfer or importation of caliber and caliber and millimeter ammunition file congress rd s senate bill by mr moynihan january to tax millimeter caliber and caliber bullets file congress rd s senate bill by mr lautenberg february to prohibit the transfer of or more handguns to an individual in any day period file congress rd s senate bill by mr metzenbaum february to amend title united states code to require a waiting period before the purchase of a handgun file gun free zones text of the gun free school zones act of from public law nov file aclu a collection of articles on the aclu s position on gun control included is aclu policy statement which gives the aclu interpretation of the second amendment file dcm info a collection of articles explaining the civilian marksmanship program in other words why does the united states department of defense sell battle rifles to civilians file dial dial and die by aaron zelman and jay simkin of jews for the preservation of firearms ownership jpfo file fija info the fully informed jury amendment and what it means to gun owners and the right to keep and bear arms file whitemanslaw white man s law by william r tonso from the december reason magazine file jefferson the first inaugural address of thomas jefferson nd president of the united states file jewishistory jewish history rufutes gun control activists by elliot rothenberg from the february american rifleman file law abiding the law abiding gun owner as domestic and acquaintance murderer from guns murders and the constitution a realistic assessment of gun control by don b kates february pp file second ideology the second amendment and the ideology of self protection by don b kates jr reprinted from constitutional commentary vol no winter c by constitutional commentary kates puts the second amendment and philosophies of self protection into a historical perspective file new understa toward a new understanding of the second amendment by david t hardy file to bear arms to bear arms for self defense our second amendment heritage by stephen p halbrook file no treason no treason the constitution of no authority by lysander spooner file resistance excerpts from the study crime control through the use of armed force by associate professor dr gary kleck florida state university school of criminology published in the february issue of social problems file waitper qna waiting period questions and answers by handgun control inc hci and citizens for safe government csg file warsaw the warsaw ghetto handguns against tyranny by dr david i caplan from february american rifleman file wethepeople supreme court interpretations of the second amendment file sc ftp how to retreive supreme court decisions via anonymous ftp file alternative policy alternative policy futures by franklin e zimring from the annals of the american academy of political and social science volume may published by the american academy of political and social science file embarassing nd amendment the embarassing second amendment by sanford levinson yale law journal volume pp file nra phone numbers for the nra many are toll free numbers file nradrugs a collection of articles on the nra s position on the war on drugs file fl aw part florida a w commission exec summary part file fl aw part florida a w commission exec summary part stockton the facts by martin l fackler md file iwba information about the international wound ballistics association martin fackler president file gunshyjudges gun shy judges by jacob sullum from the may issue of reason magazine file heatofmoment in the heat of the moment by james d wright file racist soil article gun control sprouts from racist soil by roy innis from the wall street journal file core policy bearing arms for self defense a human and civil right by roy innis national chairman congress of racial equality core file righttobear the right to bear arms by sanford levinson from the daily news ft walton beach fl file rock island united states of america v rock island armory us district court for the central district of il the court ruled that making a post machine gun is not illegal believe it or not file dalton united states of america v john william dalton us court of appeals tenth circuit the court ruled that owning or transferring a post machine gun is not punishable under the nfa believe it or not file waitdanger why gun waiting periods threaten public safety by david b kopel march file aw qna assault weapon questions answers by handgun control inc and citizens for safe government csg file ccw survey a state by state survey of carrying concealed weapons laws file us vs miller united states vs miller et al appeal from the district court of the united states for the western district of arkansas argued march decided may file presser the history of presser v illinois is a fascinating exercise of how politically based decisions on our constitutional rights have come back to haunt us file cia ncbh a column by neal knox presenting evidence that former cia agent edwin o welles played a major role in founding hci and ncbh file conphone a list of voice and fax phone number for representatives and senators file billofrights the first articles of amendment to the united states constitution file constitution the constitution of the united states of america file decl of indp the declaration of independence file dont wait criminals don t wait why should you from the nra exposes the fraudulent arguments made for waiting periods file external positive externalities of gun ownership by john kell from the freeman ideas on liberty october file english hist firearms legislation in great britain by jan a stevenson file simkin control criminals not guns by jay edward simkin found in the march or wall street journal file unabridged the unabridged second amendment by j neil schulman an interview with roy copperud retired professor of journalism at usc and author of american usage and style the consensus copperud offers his professional opinion on the meaning of the second amendment file uzitruth a letter from j harper wilson director fbi uniform crime reporting program to paul h blackman research coordinator of the nra stating that only one police officer of puerto rico was shot and killed with a semi automatic mm model a uzi file maketheirday how to make their day by don b kates jr and patricia terrell harris in the national review october kates and harris debunk several myths about firearms criminals and violence file two myths two myths of gun control from point blank guns and violence in america by gary kleck file aw not problem assault weapons aren t the problem by gary kleck published in the new york times tuesday september file oregon study oregon study of retail firearm sales and chl licensing file children fighting for children s hearts and minds by robert pew american rifleman april discusses how hci and it s center to prevent handgun violence have set out to use public schools as forums for their anti gun propaganda file gunssputter guns and sputter by james d wright from july issue of reason wright exposes the flaws in the new england journal of medicine study comparing the homicide rates of seattle and vancouver file nejm info a collection of articles and information on the new england journal of medicine vancouver seattle handgun crime comparison study see also the file gunssputter authored by james wright file dcstudy the new england journal of medicine dec pp editorials firearms and the killing threshold kassirer jerome p file dcstudy the new england journal of medicine dec pp special article effects of restrictive licensing of handguns on homicide and suicide in the district of columbia loftin colin mcdowall david wiersema brian cottey talbert j file nejm editorial the new england journal of medicine nov pp editorial firearm injuries a call for science mercy james a houk vernon n file nejm letters the new england journal of medicine may pp correspondence handgun regulations crime assaults and homicide a tale of two cities blackman paul h hagen tim morris david c stolinsky david c tirer samuel gryder john w kuziak john d sloan john h kellerman arthur l kellermann rivara fred p koepsell thomas reay donald t logerfo james p rice charles ferris james a gray laurel a mercy james a houk vernon n file suicide the new england journal of medicine feb pp special article firearm regulations and rates of suicide a comparison of two metropolitan areas sloan john henry rivara frederick p reay donald t ferris james a j kellermann arthur l file suicide the new england journal of medicine jul p correspondence firearm regulations and rates of suicide blackman paul h sloan john henry rivara frederick p kellermann arthur file totc the new england journal of medicine nov pp special article handgun regulations crime assaults and homicide a tale of two cities sloan john henry kellermann arthur l reay donald t ferris james a koepsell thomas rivara frederick p rice charles gray laurel logerfo james file nra cdc an open letter from paul h blackman of nra to the director office of scientific integrity review u s public health service detailing why they should evaluate the integrity and competency of firearms research conducted by and for the centers for disease control cdc file rkba what the rkba nnn files are all about the rkba nnn series are set of small lines typically postings that address common questions and myths about all aspects of firearms file rkba accidental deaths by firearms and by other means file rkba declining trend of accidental deaths by firearms file rkba homicide per capita in the us file rkba children and firearms file rkba annual firearm manufacture in the united states file rkba declaration of independence file rkba trend in weapons use for robberies file rkba reasons for homicide and non negligent manslaughter file rkba are firearms a leading cause of death of children file rkba is the united states the most violent nation file rkba complete list of all sources used for the rkba nnn series file cox study analysis of the cox atlanta journal constitution may article on assault weapons by james j baker of nra ila before the select committee on narcotics abuse and control u s house of representatives file feder txt the federalist papers as transcribed by project gutenberg file great quotes thomas jefferson quotes and more file civilian civilian possession of military firearms by richard a i munday from the january february issue of the uk handgunner file good go bad when good law abiding citizens go bad from uk handgunner no jan feb discusses how the rate of compliance of gun control laws is always very low even among otherwise law abiding citizens file tory national socialism tory national socialism by richard a i munday uk handgunner jul aug discusses the gun control leanings of socialists of the right file the big lie gun grabbers vs assault rifles the big lie by neal knox semi auto military styled assault rifles are not now nor have they ever been a threat to society these facts have been determined by the government but never released to the public file ff the founding fathers and the ak by sue wimmershoff caplan discuss the question if the founding fathers would have approved of the ak for civilian ownership file hcikkk handgun control inc the kkk by david kopel from the oct issue of gun world magazine discusses the parallels in the hate campaigns of the ku klux klan and handgun control inc file rkba orgs a list of organizations devoted to the preservation of the second amendment file victoria the gun law handbook for the state of victoria australia oct file nra purposes a summary of the nra s purposes and objectives and positions on some gun control issues file ktw a collection of articles relating to teflon coated armor piercing bullets file thompsoncenter the supreme court decision in the case united states of america v thompson center arms co file dmn gratia ccp concealed weapons can prevent tragedies like killeen s by dr suzanna gratia in the dallas morning news sunday april th file knox aw lies neal knox on how military style semi auto s are not a threat to public safety how they are not fundamentally different than ordinary hunting weapons and how the gun grabbers are exploiting the bad image this class of weapons has to enact further gun control file wsj crimestrik the nra mounts a militant campaign taking aim at criminal justice system by alix m freedman staff reporter of the wall street journal file med media gun prohibition in the medical literature telling the truth by edgar a suter md discusses anti gun bias in medical journals file toy guns court psychologist says toy guns are good for children from gun week glen david skoler court psychologist for the arlington county va claims toys of violence including toy guns are in fact good for children file awca appeal text of the th circuit court of appeals in the fresno rifle and pistol club challenge to california s roberti roos assault weapon control act of file lp rkba the right to keep and bear arms plank of the national platform of the libertarian party and a reproduction of the libertarian party brochure responsible gun ownership equal rights for america s gun owners the entire national platform of the lp is available via anonymous ftp on think com in the file pub libernet lp libertarian platform file let july an article from the july august issue of law enforcement technology with a survey of police officers on their views of gun control file nacp poll a study conducted by the national association of the chiefs of police nacp through its american law enforcement survey for in which chiefs of police sheriffs and law enforcement command personnel were polled with a list of questions it was determined the overwhelming majority of officers support the right of private arms ownership and agreed that gun bans had little effect on crime file hci advert a example of the propaganda used by hci in soliciting contributions file hci transcript a transcription of the hci video tape america needs a national handgun control policy file gartner michael gartner president of nbc news calls for a ban on handguns in this usa today thursday january th editorial file nra lp a resolution passed by the voting membership of the nra at its national convention in anaheim ca stating the nra will support third party candidates file cooley thomas m cooley ll d general principles of constitutional law in the united states of america rd ed a leading constitutional commentator discussed the rights protected by the second amendment file kilpatrick gun law might curb rising murder rate by james kilpatrick st louis post dispatch tuesday june kilpatrick expresses support for a national firearms law as proposed by c everett koop that is a requirement that gun owners pass a competency test among other things file vanity fair a summary of the page article on jim and sarah brady which appeared in the january issue of vanity fair magazine question was it true you wanted to get a gun to protect yourself against hinckley answer jim brady i had a gun file goldwin gun control is constitutional by robert a goldwin from the wall street journal edtorial page thrusday december file anniston two articles on a murder averted in anniston alabama by a man with a ccw permit the importance of this event is that it closely followed the murders by hennard in texas but the media did not cover anniston file staggers brady a survey of public support for the staggers instant background check and the brady waiting period the basic finding is that once the public understands the advantages of the instant background check vs the problems with the brady waiting period support for the brady waiting period diminishes greatly file brady vote how congress voted on the staggers instant background check and the brady waiting period file vs vote how congress voted on the volkmer sensenbrenner amendment to strike the new gun control sections from the administration crime bill file dc vote how the u s senate voted on s the repeal of the district of columbia s anti gun strict liability law file covey gun control trying the facts weighing the values a monograph based on crime inequality guns equity by preston k covey ph d director center for the advancement of applied ethics carnegie mellon university addresses the desirability of gun bans ethical aspects equity issues and other values at stake in the management of mortal risks deadly force and its instruments file assays of bias assays of bias on the second amendment the media elite by preston k covey director center for the advancement of applied ethics excerpts from a longer monograph file cleveland a critique of accidental firearm fatalities in a metropolitan county rushforth hirsch ford and adelson american journal of epidemiology pp this is the study that lies at the heart of the gun control claim that owning a firearm for self defense is too dangerous the claims that a defensive gun is x in this study times more likely to be used against an innocent person than in lawful self defense originated with this report in by robert i kesten file tiananmen lessons lessons from tiananmen square by neal knox reprinted from guns ammo september why the second amendment is so important even in todays more progressive era included is a description of the bonus march in washington dc in which gen douglas macarthur opposed unemployed wwi veterans lobbying for the government to immediately pay their promised veteran s bonus file forward trace california ffl dealer defies forward trace by neal talbot in the new gun week march details how the batf bullies ffl holders into giving batf copies of s in violation of federal law file justice stats handgun crime victims by michael r rand bureau of justice statistics statistician u s department of justice this bureau of justice statistics special report describes the key findings from an analysis of handgun crimes reported in the national crime survey for it describes the victims of hand gun sic crime how the handgun was used during the crime and the nature and extent of handgun crime injury it also provides information on handgun offenders the location of handgun crimes and whether the crime was reported to the police file chafee included are transcript of press conference with senator john chafee and former supreme court justice warren burger on s chafee s handgun ban also speaking was vernon jordan former member of the jimmy carter white house mayor sharon pratt kelly michael beard of national coalition to stop gun violence michael casserly executive director council of the great city schools dr carden johnston representing the american academy of pediatrics an article by neal knox in which he describes how sarah brady kicked out hci president charles orasin because of a disagreement on chafee s handgun ban an article on burger s support for s file alarmist view gun registration an alarmist view by jon vanwormer reprinted from the december guns ammo how an rkba moderate became a radical file fackler papers a list of articles by col martin l fackler m d f a c s wound ballistics lab and where to write for copies of them file gun war the great american gun war by barry bruce briggs the public interest no fall pp file george will repeal second amendment and save lives by george will file reeves drastic steps to end the war at home by richard reeves no date nor publication available placed in rkba archive studies prove gun control works by richard reeves from the kansas city star file canada ban list a reproduction of a brochure from the canadian department of justice listing newly prohibited and restricted firearms as of june also included is the point system used to determine if a firearm should be reviewed for possible banning file copkiller lyrics to the rock song cop killer by ice t on the album body count file cva a letter from the california voters alliance asking for support in their effort to defeat anti gun california assemblyman terry friedman co author of california s waiting period law for rifles and shotguns file astrology criminology s astrology the cdc approach to public health research on firearms and violence by paul h blackman ph d institute for legislative action national rifle association a paper presented at the annual meetings of the american society of criminology baltimore maryland november file aw panic the assault weapon panic political correctness takes aim at the constitution by eric morgan and david kopel published by the independence institute october file state rkba a collection of rkba provisions from state constitutions file too late chapter but then it was too late of they thought they were free the germans by milton mayer university of chicago press file militia code the legal definition of the militia of the united states of america taken from united stated code usc title section and section file legal mg crime report no of the firearms coalition of silver spring md by neal knox knox reports that a legally registered machine gun was used in a drug hit subsequent reports said charges were dropped for lack of evidence file hci cash hci donation records to us senators and congressmen file paulreverenet information about the paul revere net a network of nd amendment bulletin boards the paul revere network prn is a coast to coast network of committed grass roots gun rights activists who rely upon computer bulletin board systems for their primary mode of communication leroy pyle nra director and year san jose police veteran is founder and director of the prn based in san jose ca pyle s bbs currently hubs all network message traffic file gun talk information about the nra ila bulletin board gun talk file congressgrades a grading of congressmen based their votes on the brady bill hr staggers hr and the volkmer sensenbrenner amendment to strike the anti gun provisions from the house crime bill hr file lawmaster feds trash law abiding gun owner s home nra official journal march by richard e gardiner details how the batf raided the home of johnny lawmaster in search of a non existent unregistered m auto sear file point blank the concluding chapter to point blank by gary kleck file purdy rapsheet patrick purdy s criminal record file progundocs statement of purpose and contact information for doctors for integrity in research public policy file orlando a summary of the effects of the highly publicized orlando training program in which over women were trained in basic pistol marksmanship and the law of self defense file form signoff a letter from wayne miller chief national firearms act branch of batf stating that local law enforcement signoff on the atf form application for taxpaid transfer and registration of firearm i e machine gun is completely discretionary file badlands txt new zealand firearms control by robert badlands a paper presented at a conference on gun control held at melbourne university union theatre august the conference was sponsored by the sporting shooters association of australia file danto txt issues regarding gun control in america by bruce l danto a paper was presented at a conference on gun control held at melbourne university union theatre august the conference was sponsored by the sporting shooters association of australia file fine txt impediments to the purposeful reform of australian firearms laws by j d fine a paper presented at a conference on gun control held at melbourne university union theatre august the conference was sponsored by the sporting shooters association of australia file greenwd txt untitled paper by colin greenwood a paper presented at a conference on gun control held at melbourne university union theatre august the conference was sponsored by the sporting shooters association of australia file kates txt gun control recent research on the american experience by don b kates jr a paper presented at a conference on gun control held at melbourne university union theatre august the conference was sponsored by the sporting shooters association of australia file marsden txt gun control a banker s perspective by marsden a paper presented at a conference on gun control held at melbourne university union theatre august the conference was sponsored by the sporting shooters association of australia note this paper is almost impossible to read currently as the original would not scan well a more readable copy will be supplied later file backdoor back door gun control by peter alan kasler from the january issue of american survival guide magazine kasler discusses four examples of innocent people whose firearms are confiscated and or charged with a crime when none was committed as examples of how gun control is implemented in the real world file armed citizen the armed citizen feature from the american rifleman and the american hunter these stories show how firearms are indeed useful for self defense file botsford the case against gun control by david botsford file academia bias fighting anti gun bias in academia an article downloaded from the nra ila bbs gun talk file story of gun the story of a gun by erik larson from the atlantic january file hcr reports to the firearms coalition by neal knox all these files are named hcr then two numbers e g hcr for report no to the firearms coalition file whose txt whose side are they on freedom from war the united states program for general and complete disarmament in a peaceful world an official publication of the united states of america government file nccfa contact information for the national collegiate coalition for firearms awareness file canada some facts about canadian gun control laws gun ownership and violent crime file time letter time magazine s form letter response to criticism of their death by gun issue file gun in school health objectives for the nation weapon carrying among high school students united states edited by david dodell d m d proposes ways to reduce carrying of firearms by high school students file congress cover congress covers itself but not public by paul craig roberts printed in the cleveland plain dealer october nd file hamper restrictions hamper law abiding folks not criminals by david b kopel printed in the columbus oh dispatch january th points out how waiting periods can cause a great deal of harm file schumer gripe a washington post letter to the editor by congessman charles e schumer discussing his bill h r which requires law enforcement sign off on ffl applications file sof a upi article on a lawsuit against soldier of fortune which forced them out of business this article is copyright by upi and archived with permission please respect the re distribution prohibition file fl stats a summary of ccw permit statistics for the state of florida e g the number of permits issued number revoked number denied etc this proves that people obtaining ccw permits are law abiding citizens and are not wreckless with their firearms file knox on ruger knox replies to comment from ruger counsel s from the new gun week december neal knox discusses how sturm ruger inc are willing to sacrifice the rkba for the benefit of their business file american blacks gun control and american blacks by raymond g kessler pp in the united states the experience of blacks from slavery through the s was one of the clearest and best documented examples of the political functions of gun control file nraction the nra ilas little known newsletter nraction names will have the month and year at the end e g nraction file americamilitia america s militia by david b kopel appeared in gun world magazine december file hci agenda the action agenda for a national gun policy by hci file hci newsletter the handgun control semi annual progress report for december file hattoripetition a petition written by the host family of japanese exchange student yoshihiro hattori who was killed when he went to the wrong home for a halloween party to protest the easy availability of firearms in the united states which will be presented to president clinton file hci election what the election means for our gun control movement by sarah brady file centerwall university of washington pyschiatrist dr brandon centerwall writing in the april american journal of epidemiology says that television exposure is related to half of the homicides in the united states file va outrage an outrage in virginia by neal knox describes how batf used a virginia gun dealer to general strawman sales and then later traced those guns back to va so they could claim of guns they traced came from va when the dealer stopped cooperating they were convicted of conducting strawman sales one of the owners committed suicide file factcard the firearms fact card published by the nra ila file nejm a letter to the editor of the wall street journal by preston covey on the factoid you are times more likely to kill someone you know with a gun than a criminal file gifford an op ed piece by dan gifford which appeared in the march issue of the cleveland plain dealer it discusses the issue of police abuses and citizen self defense against such abuses file reynolds an editorial gun makers must pay the price by mel reynolds d il member us house of representatives which appeared in the issue of the chicago tribune file pozner gun control with vladamir pozner yes the commie and phil donahue from a feb broadcast on cnbc file trustpeople cato institute policy analysis no july trust the people the case against gun control by david b kopel file bitterprice the british shooter pays a bitter price by keith g n nicholson from the american rifleman march file batman cartoon campaign for gun control from the march th issue of new american file batfss waco shootout evokes memory of warsaw from the wall street journal monday march file academics contact information for academics for the second amendment file propaganda anti gun ownership propaganda by doan boal in the march issue of survival guide file media fairness media fairness action plan is continuing by james h warner nra ass t general counsel from american rifleman march page this describes the fcc s personal attack rule and how the nra may take advantage of this rule against broadcasters who attack the nra file artconf articles of confederation proposed by congress november ratified and effective march file pending bills a list of the currently pending gun control bills in the us seante and house of representatives file noduty self reliance for self defense police protection isn t enough by peter kasler file leftout the second amendment a right left out by doctor linda karen miller appearing in the american rifleman february p file copsnguns what cops should know about the gun issue by leroy pyle from the may issue of guns ammo file crossfire a transcript of the wednesday march edition of the cnn show crossfire the participants are michael kinsley john sununu rep charles schumer d ny criminal justice subcmte and j f rep jack fields r tx file naziconnection the war on gun ownership still goes on gun control s nazi connection by craig peterson from the may issue of guns ammo file armedcriminal the armed criminal in america by james wright a research in brief published by the national institute of justice file bigotry bigotry symbolism and ideology in the battle over gun control by don kates from the public interest law review file flmurd ps file gamurd ps file idmurd ps file mtmurd ps file nodiscr ps file ormurd ps file pamurd ps file philmurd ps file utmurd ps file vamurd ps file wamurd ps file wvmurd ps ccw laws and murder rates in several states by clayton cramer these are all postscript files and require the use of postscript printer to print file hammer marion hammer on the failure of gun control downloaded from gun talk file threechiefs the views of police chiefs daryl gates la lee brown nyc leroy martin chicago on gun control and other civil rights rkba archive general information and anonymous ftp instructions the moderator of the firearms politics mailing list karl kleinpaste has agreed to set up an anonymous ftp archive directory for rkba related information this directory can be used for things like articles by kates wright tonso levinson supreme court decisions the ria vs us decision copies of legislation and so on it s not meant to be for the discussions that normally appear here so in the future if you re looking for something check there first and then ask here instructions short version for techies the site is godiva nectar cs cmu edu place contributions into the directory usr anon pub firearms politics rkba the ftp commands get put mget or mput should work give the command type binary to be sure files are transferred correctly your files will be moved to the rkba directory to get a file use the commands get or mget i will maintain an index which you should get first to check if the file you want to read or write already is archived long version for non techies in order for you to use this archive your computer must be on the internet to connect to the archive site run the command ftp godiva nectar cs cmu edu if that doesn t work you cannot use this archive if the ftp command is successful you ll get this prompt asking you for a login name godiva nectar cs cmu edu lvc instead of lvc your initials will appear answer this prompt with ftp next you ll get this prompt asking your for your e mail address guest login ok send e mail address as password i would enter l v cipriani att com you ll enter your own e mail address you ll get these lines or similar as output remote system is unix using binary mode to transfer files next the command prompt is printed ftp if you do not get the line using binary mode to transfer files run the command type binary now you re logged in to the archive machine there are many directories on this machine but the two you are concerned with are usr anon pub firearms politics rkba and usr anon pub firearms politics incoming there are subdirectories to the rkba directory those are discussed below when you login to the system your directory is usr anon to retreive files change your current directory to the rkba directory with the command cd usr anon pub firearms politics rkba or cd pub firearms politics rkba to submit files change your directory to the incoming directory with the command cd usr anon pub firearms politics incoming or cd pub firearms politics incoming once you do this you ll get another ftp prompt asking you to enter another command to find the names of the existing files in the directory you are in run the command ls l this will produce something like total r r r karl jun dmn gratia ccp r r r karl apr index r r r karl jun knox aw lies r r r karl apr s r r r karl jun wsj crimestrike r r r karl jan academia bias r r r karl mar academics r r r karl aug aclu and so on each line corresponds to one file reading right to left the fields are the file name the last modification date of the file the size of the file in bytes and some permission fields which you do not need to be concerned with to get a file run the command get followed by the name of the file you want for example get index or get noduty after the file is transfered to your machine a message like this transfer complete bytes received in seconds kbytes s you can repeat the get command for every file you want to retreive you can use the mget command to retreive multiple files if the file you want is in a subdirectory for example congress rd hr you should change your directory to the appropriate subdirectory first and then retrieve it cd congress rd get hr once you re finished you can log off with the command quit if you have a file you want to contribute the procedure is a little different first of all you should find out if the file already exists so get a copy of the index file with the procedure above and look it over to make sure you wouldn t repeat an entry the index will have a description of each of the files in the rkba directory for example file whitemanslaw white man s law by william r tonso from the december reason magazine once you ve determined you won t be duplicating an entry login and change to the incoming directory command see above once you are in the incoming directory use the command put file name in this case put whitemanslaw again there ll be a transfer complete so many bytes transfered in so many seconds message now your file is on the archive machine another thing to watch out for is duplicate file names be sure there isn t a file in the incoming directory that is called the same as the file you want to write if you use the same name you ll overwrite the previous file or you ll get an error message your file may have to be renamed if there is a conflict with a file by the same name in the rkba directory once your file is in the incoming directory send me an entry for the index file and i will add it to the file if you cannot use anonymous ftp and would still like to contribute a file email the file to me and i ll take care of the rest if you submit a file and do not notify me it may be removed so be sure to let me know first if you have any questions feel free to ask me larry cipriani l v cipriani att com michael phelps external mjp vnet ibm com internal mjp bwa kgn ibm com mjp at kgnvmy and last but not least a disclaimer these opinions are mine
talk.politics.guns	re riddle me this on the subject of cs cn tear gas when i received my initial introduction to tear gas the first thing that came to mind was the location of the exit if there had been anything in the way corners to negotiate doors to open or any other obstacles to movement i would have had a difficult time exiting the chamber and any concentration of tear gas is hazardous to individuals with respiratory problems and the wearing of soft contact lenses in a tear gas contaminated area is considered a real bad idea so hoping the bd s would peaceably come strolling out the door after being gassed is a bit unrealistic if they could have found the door having them staggering out retching wouldn t be too far fetched throw in the factor of days of being under siege and subject to psychological warfare and all bets on functional abilities are off anybody tried to get amnesty international to jump in on this one james s cochrane when in danger or in doubt run in this space gt a prism gatech edu circles scream and shout for rent
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card in article cmm thomasp surt ifi uio no thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no writes gun clubs if you are a member you can borrow weapons suprised you are supposed to train with a for the months then you can start with anything bigger drivers licence forgot that usa is the land of cars getting one in scandinavia and northern europe is not easy average time is about hours of training and the cost is rather but we think this is acceptable because a car is not a toy and bad drivers tend to hurt others if you are really bad you won t get a lincence abuse by the goverment this seems to be one of the main problems any harder gun control would just be abused by the goverment either some of you are a little paranoid no offence or you should get a new goverment you do have elections unfortunately elections can and are bought promise the voters money and they will vote for you guns n criminals most weapons used by criminals today are stolen known criminals can not buy weapons that s one of the points of gun control same here convicted felons may not legally purchase firearms and because gun control are strict in whole scandinavia and most of europe we dont have any problem with smuggled guns that you know of while i lived in the dbr a gang robbed a joint us army bundewehr armoury and got several hundred m s ammunition handguns and some explosives when i left two years later there were no clues mixing weapons and things that can be use as one what i meant was that cars can kill but they are not guns someone said that if we ban guns we d have to ban cars to because they kill to i don t think we should argue on this one the issue i hope i think we all agree that the criminals are the main problem guns are not a problem but the way they are used is and what are they for who uses them is the problem crime in the u s is no big deal if you are the criminal how about years for murder credit for time served in jail waiting for trial and you are out in months worst case if we would put criminals especially violent ones in the slam for true sentences crime would drop instead we reward them for being good and let them out early very early i think this discusion is interesting when you think of ex jugoslavia they should all have weapons it s their rigth to have them and if they use them to kill other innocent people the problem is humans not guns serbs croats and muslims have been killing each other almost since before the invention of guns old women are throwing stones at un trucks this is a hatred that goes beyond reason if of all murders was done with axes would you impose some regulations on them or just say that they are ment to be used at trees and that the axe is not a problem it s the axer an example don t flame me just because not exactly are killed by guns yes the problem is the user question back since you are one of the rational ones if all gun crime were to stop would you support dropping all gun controls think about the situation in los angeles where people are buying guns to protect themselves is this a good situation is it the rigth way to deal with the problem they did not believe from experience that the police including national guard could would protect them unless you want to argue that a human being does not have a right to protect him herself they did the right thing what would you suggest as a defense against a mob throwing bottles and rocks and also likely armed with stolen firearms if everybody buys guns to protect themselves from criminals and their neighbor who have guns what do you think will happen i mean if everybody had a gun in usa criminals would move to scandinavia the average criminal would look for a less hazardous job and the rest would likely be buried at county expense don t flame the englishmen because of northern irland they have gun control that works in england and fonds from usa are one of the reasons why ira can bomb innocents something about throwing stones in glass houses personally i criticize the fools who send money to the ira to make ireland free of course this is the last thing the ira wants because they lose power if england pulls out but that s for another group don t flame them because of what to three children did either the u s has roughly times the major sporting events as the u k how many riots did we have at sporting events last year off the playing field hooligan is a word never used when reffering to sports fans here i guess that s where the different cultures thing comes in can an jugoslav have an oppinion on guns or even peace yes yes the question is is the problem one of too many guns mostly from the army or not enough nonserbians can not defend themselves my numbers about crime rates after restrictions on shot guns are from the police and the statistisk sentralbyraa understood that one sorenson last word responsible gun owners are not a problem but they will be affected if you want to protect your citicens but disarming responsible gun owners is not the solution yet that is exactly what hci is proposing dillon pyron the opinions expressed are those of the ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated when i m here when i m home texans vote no on robin hood we need pyron skndiv dseg ti com solutions not gestures padi dm
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article apr synapse bms com hambidge bms com writes in article c sv hjy news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu brent irvine writes in article r j n t transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes in article r tp em bigboote wpi edu mfrhein wpi wpi edu michael frederick rhein writes napalm then let the wood stove inside ignite it as someone else has pointed out why would the stove be in use on a warm day in texas do you eat all your food cold ever hear of electric ovens or microwaves very popular electric stoves outside metro areas especially ever hear about cutting off the electricity that was done how effective is an electric stove then didn t the branch davidans have an emergency generator oh well i don t think brent thought of that anyway patrick chester aka claypigeon wolfone ccwf cc utexas edu the earth is our cradle but one cannot stay in the cradle forever people s organizations rarely stay that way or even begin as such i only speak for myself if i did speak for ut would anyone listen
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card hadcrjam admin uh edu miller jimmy a writes in r efjinn jj gap caltech edu arc cco caltech edu writes thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no writes i also believe texas has some of the most liberal gun laws in usa in texas you cannot carry a handgun period either concealed or open currently there is a bill before the texas legislature that would make it legal for some ordinary folks to carry concealed weapons i don t have the details sorry semper fi jammer jim miller texas a m university and i don t speak for uh which is too bad because they could use the help become one with the student billing system be the student billing system power finds its way to those who take a stand stand up ordinary man rik emmet gil moore mike levine triumph if i recall correctly the bill would provide for concealed carry if the person takes a hr dps safety course in firearms and pays a fee for the license the bill is apparently veto proof in the house but ltgov bullock has said it will never come to the floor of the senate and dreamboat annie has vowed to veto it if it comes to her desk shrug aaron arc cco caltech edu
talk.politics.guns	re news says batf indictment warrant unsealed question what will californians do with all those guns after the reginald denny trial the wall street journal had an article on how the police were whining about all the new guns excuse me but police are employees of the government rather like having your janitor complain about job conditions i say californians should form armed block clubs that would engage in coordinated strategies should batf attempt to disarm them based on the nefarious tipster theory of law enforcement unlike waco californians should be able to destroy armored vehicles in city streets with incendiary weapons acetylene after slowing them down with abandoned car blockades m garands should easily outclass batf shock troops with their h k mp smgs and there should be enough sony walkmans and boom boxes to overwhelm any fbi psy war operation yes a good time would be had by all billary clinton would get what he wanted a war on gunowners the batf would attempt to show the anti gun press they they really really were in charge with a man charge of the light brigade and the fbi would attempt to show how they really were in charge by asking the californian national guard to level the area with artillary
talk.politics.guns	re jffo has gone a bit too far having read the posted long article by jpfo i have some observations this article does not claim that the gca of is a verbatim translation of a nazi law what it says is that in another place the book they re talking about they compare the two things section by section the implication is that the similarities are devastating in the next sentence they talk about how in that book they reproduce the german text of the nazi law together with its translation not surprisingly a reader could easily conflate these two things into a single idea that the american gca is a literal translation of the nazi law and sure enough that s what the whole thing has mutated into urban folklore style the article goes to great pains to establish that senator dodd had a copy of the nazi law either from his time on the nurnberg prosecution team or later this fact is considered highly incriminating but i don t understand why the author repeats several times that he is simply unable to imagine how anyone could come into possession of the original text and yet in a paragraph towards the end he explains it perfectly if dodd got his copy of the original german text of the nazi weapons law during his time at nurnberg it likely was part of a collection of documents for example issues of the reichsgesetzblatt the german law registry bingo exactly dodd had a book with a series of nazi laws in it including the one under discussion all of the stuff about why would a u s congressman have a copy of a nazi law melts away by the author s admission he then continues but if he acquired the original german text of the nazi weapons law after his service at nurnberg he must have done so for a very specific reason but there s absolutely no reason to think that this is the case in fact as a senior member of the u s team that helped to prosecute nazi war criminals it seems to me that he would have had to have a copy all arguments about whether the nazi weapon law is really of historical interest as it obviously is certainly according to the author here or whether dodd personally prosecuted the interior minister who signed it can be put aside as red herrings having established that dodd owned a copy of the original german text the jpfo article then tries to draw sinister implications from the fact that he asked to have it translated the problem is in the context of the charge levelled at dodd these two things work against each other people ask to have things translated when they don t know what they mean if dodd took it upon himself to preserve the nazi law with idea of someday introducing it into american law surely by he would have know what it meant wouldn t he anyway this precise charge the main one that i questioned in an earlier posting is just silly why would dodd need the exact translation for this purpose is the idea that the gun controllers despite being presumably bent on disarming the populace with the goal of eventually destroying all civil liberties needed a crib sheet didn t they have any idea how to do it on their own once again the author provides a perfectly acceptable answer to his own question dodd may have offered his copy of the nazi weapons law to show that the specific proposal did not resemble anything in the nazi law in fact since the law and its translation were entered into the congressional record under the heading of documents concerning the history of nazism and gun confiscation dodd s motivation isn t a mystery he asked for the translation in order to put it in the cr even this article makes it clear that the part of the nazi law that was added by the nazi regime is only a small part of that law registration of guns for instance was begun in and thus not a nazi inspired idea the parts of the nazi law that parallel the gca include handgun control of some sort and the identification of certain weapons as sporting weapons the jpfo then goes on to list other parts of the nazi law forbidding ownership of weapons by jews of course there are no such provisions in the american gca nevertheless in a rhetorical move guaranteed to muddy the waters immediately after the discussion of the anti jewish parts of the law the jpfo article continues given the parallels between the nazi weapons law and the gca so as to get maximum emotional mileage out of that aspect of the law don porges porges inmet camb inmet com uunet inmet porges
talk.politics.guns	re with friends like these l neil smith in article c d g xw undergrad math uwaterloo ca papresco undergrad math uwaterloo ca paul prescod writes in article apr sco com allanh sco com allan j heim writes look if you can figure out a reliable means of keeping guns away from bad people while not interfering with good people i think we d all be for it the problem is the methods we re using now don t do the trick don t manufacture them don t sell them don t import them some guns will get through but far fewer and far less people will die because of them hunting weapons could be allowed of course as long as they are big and bulky and require reloading after a few shots how many times can you shoot at the same animal anyways one assumes they are moving first of all let s assume that you are right that fewer guns would make it in to the country that sounds great to those that see guns as inherently evil except then every one of those guns would be in the hands of someone who obviously couldn t care less about following the law after all they got the gun illegally so is more likely to commit a crime with that gun great then everyone with a gun is likely to use it in a crime nice system now as to reducing the number of guns coming into society by making it illegal to manufacture sell or import them in this coutry let me use a parallel for empiric evidence the amount of cocaine in this country is far less since its manufacture sale and importation was out lawwed if that last statement is true then perhaps we should consider your plan this could also apply to drugs in general plain old joe
talk.politics.guns	the holocaust revisited the u s government s campaign of persecution and genocide against the branch davidians was a resounding success heil clinton heil reno the gestapo is alive and well and living in washington d c kevin who agrees that david koresh was probably a first rate nutcase but who firmly believes that the bill of rights guaranteed his his right to be a religious fanatic and that the government is guilty of violating his civil rights and of st degree murder ok which small under represented in congress religious group are we going to persecute next and are we going to torch their church with a rolled up copy of the constitution i think i m going to be sick now
talk.politics.guns	re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption in article strnlghtc tr d n n netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes though i agree this is not the place to discuss guns i note in passing that a number of gun apologists seem to have ignored the words well regulated in their distorted interpretations of the second amendment what interpretations just read it as it s written a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed where does it say the right of the people to be members of a militia shall not be infringed or the right of the militia to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed nowhere well educated businessmen being necessary to the ability of the nation to compete in the international marketplace the right of the people to attend schools shall not be infringed would you interpret this to mean that only businessmen should have a protected right to attend schools why or why not joe
talk.politics.guns	re s brady bill loopholes in article shepardc p y gc netcom com shepard netcom com mark shepard writes hi i ve just finished reading s and have several questions about the brady bills s and hr good are these the current versions of the brady bill what is the status of these bills i ve heard they re in committee how close is that to being made law not very thanks to the filibuster in the senate things are backing up the house judiciary is going to start looking at our friends from the atf so that bill will be held up a little too note things can change quickly s and hr seem fairly similar are there any important differences i missed s seems to have some serious loopholes a s doesn t specify an appeals process to wrongful denial during the waiting period other than a civil lawsuit s has an appeals process once the required instant background check system is established but not before i thought there was a correction process in both bills for both parts b the police are explicitly not liable for mistakes in denying approving using existing records so who would i sue in a above to have an inaccurate record corrected very correct c s includes an exception to waiting period clause for if a person can convince the local chief law enforcement officer cleo of an immediate threat to his or her life or life of a household member but s doesn t say exactly what is considered a threat nor does it place a limit on how long the cleo takes to issue an exception statement welcome to the world of the privileged true have i misunderstood any other holes how about no compulsion to allow purchase if there is no evidence against with just s what s to stop a person with a clean record from buying guns grinding off the serial numbers and selling them to crooks at minimum what additional laws are needed to prevent this it is already illegal to do this seems at min a gun counting scheme would be needed e g john doe owns n guns so if s passes i wouldn t be surprised to see legislation for stricter harder to forge i d s plus national gun registration justified by a need to make the brady bill work this is the health card or so some paranoids claim i say that just because you re paranoid doesn t mean they re not out to get you please comment i m mainly interested in specific problems with the current legislation i don t mean to start a general discussion of the merits of any all waiting period bills ever proposed dillon pyron the opinions expressed are those of the ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated when i m here when i m home texans vote no on robin hood we need pyron skndiv dseg ti com solutions not gestures padi dm
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article c tenu f ns nodak edu green plains nodak edu bill green writes just to shed some light on the fire it was widely reported ap etc that there were several witnesses to bd folks starting the fires it has also been reported that the fires broke out in several places at once which rules out a bradley knocking over a lamp etc as the cause the only folks claiming this are the atf fbi who have an interest in putting the blame on the bd s wake up what i would like to see is some serious discussion of this incident i believe the moves made were right and proper but i still have some problems with some of the tactics after watching the abc special on it tonight as well as cnn and nightline i question some of the atf and fbi actions right and proper how it was fubar from day could it have been possible to have taken koresh outside the compound at some time before the feb th raid from all independent sources yes could a further wait have resulted in a different outcome it would have hurt nothing to wait and the result could hardly have been worse were fbi actions blaring loudspeakers etc the right course of action sure it you want to someone you claim is a dangerous paranoid even more paranoid and a few other questions like i said i believe the actions taken in general were proper but i still have some reservations one other point i m no fan of janet reno but i do like the way she had the balls to go ahead and take full responsibility seems like the waffle boy had problems figuring out just where he stood on the issue and what makes you think that waffle boy didn t tell her to take the wrap it was job preservation not balls wayne j warf wwarf ucs indiana edu i speak for myself only clinton gore cia fbi dea assassinate bomb wod bor atf irs resist nsa christian god satan apocalypse zog nazi socialist communist explosive fundamentalist revolution nsc federal reserve constitution gold fema
talk.politics.guns	re nra address in article pdxgate uucp barker rigel cs pdx edu james barker writes could someone email me a usnail address for the nra i d like to write them a letter encouraging them to see to it very emphatically that the nd amendment is restored to the form that the founding fathers intended national rifle association rhode island ave nw washington dc membership jeff strait strait uicsl csl uiuc edu university of illinois phone if you ladies leave this island if you survive basic recruit training you will be a weapon a minister of death praying for war
talk.politics.guns	question on senate bills i m writting letters to my congresscritters and was wondering if there is any reason s why i should not support the following bills other than the previous comments about s just checking before i mail the letter to make sure i don t support something that i really shouldn t i strongly support the following laws currently being considered in congress as they would either have a positive effect towards reducing crime or re enforce our constitutional right under the nd amendment s campbell to amend title united states code to provide a mandatory minimum sentence for the unlawful possession of a firearm by a convicted felon a fugitive from justice a person who is addicted to or an unlawful user of a controlled substance or a transferor or receiver of a stolen firearm to increase the general penalty for violation of federal firearms laws and to increase the enhanced penalties provided for the possession of a firearm in connection with a crime of violence or drug trafficking crime and for other purposes s smith to restore the second amendment rights of all americans s specter to provide federal penalties for drive by shootings s kohl to amend section of title united states code to make it a federal crime to steal a firearm or explosives in interstate or foreign commerce bill vojak vojak icebucket stortek com nra ila colorado firearms coalition here s a story bout a man named brady who took a bullet in his head even though he can act perfectly normal he prefers to pretend he s brain dead here s a story bout a woman named brady who had nothing to do but sit around all day then her husband became a media martyr now she wants to take all your guns away the brady bunch the brady bunch this is how we got stuck with the brady bunch
talk.politics.guns	re change of name in article cmm thomasp holmenkollen ifi uio no thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no writes make a new newsgroup called talk politics guns paranoid or talk politics guns they r here to take me away well may i point out that paranoia is an irrational fear without basis in reality as we ve seen here in the us there is nothing irrational about it perhaps you folks in finland have been down on your knees being good little boys and girls so that the former soviet union didn t come across the border and stomp the snot out of you for so long that you just figure everybody should be so accomodating to tyranny move all postings about waco and burn to guess where stop posting on this newsgroup if you don t like us talking about political issues involving attacks on people for owning guns don t read talk politics guns we are all so glad you re trying to save us from the evil goverment but would you mail this in regular mail to let s say people nobody s trying to save you from anything so butt out i couldn t care less about what somebody on the other side of the world thinks about this of course you do have a right to an opinion but i ve always figured that opinons are like hemmorhoids every asshole s got them i just don t care about yours i remember what i was doing bad boy whatcha gonna do when i heard that jfk had been shot whatcha gonna do will you remember the battle of waco when they come for you ken whitehead kdw odin icd ab com
talk.politics.guns	re waco clinton press conference part could y all please stop posting this stuff to tx general tx politics is sufficient and is where this stuff belongs thanks cathy cathy foulston rice university network systems support cathyf rice edu
talk.politics.guns	the dayton gun buy back re boston gun buy back according to wnci fm radio this morning dayton ohio is operating a gun buy back they are giving for every functional gun turned in they ran out of money in one day and are now passing out vouchers of some sort they are looking for more funds to keep operating another media event brought to you by hci is there something similar pro gun people can do for example pay to anyone who lawfully protects their life with a firearm sounds a bit tacky but hey whatever works larry cipriani l v cipriani att com
talk.politics.guns	re need senate bill numbers and house resolution numbers in article c u io umw hawnews watson ibm com mjp vnet ibm com michael j phelps writes try the firearms archive larry cipriani s instructions follow by the way thanks for the archive larry there are a few bills not yet in the archive but these are the main ones we need to fight and thanks to david robinson for scanning so many of them in for us the subdirectory bills are stored in was moved from congress to congress that is godiva nectar cs cmu edu usr anon pub firearms politics rkba congress larry cipriani l v cipriani att com
talk.politics.guns	re riddle me this in article apr ucsu colorado edu fcrary ucsu colorado edu frank crary writes in article apr jupiter sun csd unb ca j jupiter sun csd unb ca fuller m writes that the gas was not harmful as the sensitive caring janet reno described it is it as far as i know tear gas especially in large concentrations is very dangerous even toxic for small children this makes the fbi s supposedconcern for the safety of the children seem rather hypocritical not to mention that the g men believed the children didn t have gas masks but that was not with respect to the children the point of the gassing the feds knew that the children s health would be in danger and proceeded under the assumption that the motherly instinct of the davidian women would remove them from harm s way i busted a gut on that one someone else on the net observed that the administration s appeal to a woman s motherly instinct would never wash with feminists and liberals if a republican were in the white house i say that such an justification could only come from a feminist mindset btw i d read in the paper yesterday that the type of gas used was cs the paper didn t provide any specifics about it guess i m still writing malcolm fuller surveying engineering university of new brunswick malcolm atlantic cs unb ca or j jupiter csd unb ca malo periculosam libertatem quam quietam servitutem
talk.politics.guns	re atf burns dividian ranch update aej d cmuvm bitnet writes ah yes i see a few liberal weenies have come out of the woodwork to defend the burning of the children actually all the liberals i ve seen have deplored the burning of children i would far preferred that the davidians had not set the fire that burned themselves and their children to death but i don t believe that the responsibility for the fire or the almost complete absense of attempts to escape the blaze can be placed at the door of the federal authorities probably drooled all over themselves while watching the tv coverage not so my wife got me a convenient plastic drip pan for christmas probably had a few like that in nazi germany as well yeah those nazis you know how we liberals just love those nazis oh yeah atf fbi now claims according the the media that there are a few survivors the number seems to vary minute by minute yeah as information trickles in funny how that works nathan engle software juggler psychology department indiana university nate psygate psych indiana edu nengle silver ucs indiana edu
talk.politics.guns	re need info on and suicide for refutation in article qmuv innl s dns nmsu edu loki acca nmsu edu entropic destroyer writes the following is quoted from the tail end of a rather condescending article about paxton quigley that appeared in us snooze and world lies sorry i think it was in the wall street journal and was repeated in the colorado people s daily a student newspaper at the university of colorado at boulder a study of residential gunsot deaths in king county wash found that a gun in the home was times more likely to be used to kill its owner spouse a friend or child than to kill an intruder the used to kill is the heart of the misinformation it s one of those technically accurate phrasings that conveys the wrong impression what mr quiqley is more than aware of i m sure is that when people read this they think violent arguments where one member of the family grabs a gun and shoots another thereby creating a tragic situation which could easily have been avoided had the gun not been there or a tragic accident especially involving a child unfortunately that s not the way things stack up the majority of that times i believe are suicides that is someone intentionally took a firearm and shot themselves intending to kill themselves and why it s popular to try and blame suicides on guns the evidence doesn t support this internal studies as well as comparative studies with other countries indicate that cultural factors far outweigh whether a person will kill themselves or not japan for instance has a slightly higher rate than the u s there people jump off buildings according to the national crime survey of violent crime is commited by non strangers which mistakenly has been generalized regarding the king county study to mean friends and family that is mr quigley and others who quote this statistic are banking on the mental image that a friend family member or child equates to a loving relationship and that it was cut short in a moment of anger unfortunately all too often husbands beat and kill wives children assault parents or vice versa most rapes are commited by someone known to the victim for instance essentially that a gun was used against a friend or family member doesn t mean they weren t trying to hurt the other person crime is highest among poor urban families and those are also the areas most at risk for family problems especially violent ones a son in a gang may not be as loving toward his parents if they disapprove than a suburban kid might finally it hinges on the fallacy that a dead intruder is the only value of a self defense firearm using the minimum figures i worked out using the ncs i got about an ratio between deadly self defenses justifiable homicides and with gun self defenses between the fbi uniform crime report and the ncs there s an enormous amount of data and anybody with the calculator can crunch the numbers as such it is incorrect to assume that a dead body is the only valid means of determining the success of such a defense since according to the ncs which has been considered by many to seriously under report defenses there were far more successful with gun defenses than intruders killed not it also confines itself to the home where attack by a friend or family member is far far more likely and excludes any defense which occurs outside the home i believe a large number occur in businesses studies by the western psychiatric institute in pittsburgh found that the mere presence of a gun in the home sharply incresases the likelihood a family member will commit suicide even in the absence of psychiatric illness i have not seen the exact data for this so i can t comment i will point out canada s and japan s suicide rate as indications that culture far more than firearm availability affect suicide rates there was also a comparative study between canada for what it s worth considering the difficulty of comparing across cultural lines published in the new england journal of medicine i can get the exact cite if you need it that concluded that restrictive firearm laws would not significantly impact the over all suicide rate david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card in article u uicvm uic edu jason kratz u uicvm uic edu writes in article apr csd newshost stanford edu andy sail stanford edu andy freeman says hell a glock is the last thing that should be switched to the only thing that i know about a glock is the lack of a real safety on it sure there is that little thing in the trigger but that isn t too great of a safety now we know that kratz doesn t understand what a safety is supposed to do he also confuses things he can see with things that exist glocks have multiple safeties even though only one is visible from the outside excuse me but i do know what i safety is supposed to do kratz comments above show otherwise it s basic purpose not to let the gun fire until you re ready bingo now the question is does the glock s qualify let s see the evidence that kratz uses christ i ve known that since i had my first crosman air gun you don t know me so don t make assumptions about what i know and don t know but first an aside having an air gun proves nothing moreover my comments are based on what kratz writes he s free to argue that he babbles in text but actually knows something off line a safety is supposed to keep the gun from going off unless that s what the user wants with glocks one says i want the gun to go off by pulling the trigger if the safeties it has make that work it has a real safety no matter what kratz thinks from the things i have read heard glocks are always knocked because of the trigger safety they are supposedly harder to learn to use properly harder than what i note that almost all revolvers work the same way so it can t be harder than revolvers every article that i have read can t be wrong about the damn thing sure they can moreover we know now that kratz sample is unrepresentative we can look at the reasoning it is basically these glocks are dangerous because they re not like my s w third generation part of that is true but since those same people don t claim that revolvers which share the relevant property are dangerous we see that the argument fails me to quote my sources because i don t keep a ton of gun magazines and or why would i care i m not looking for more bogus reasoning rec guns articles laying around boy you can t make a simple statement on here without someone getting right on your ass one can make hundreds of simple statements without having anyone getting right on your ass one merely has to make accurate simple statements then you get attaboy s by mail and publically accuracy is a severe burden but most of us manage it andy
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card in article u uicvm uic edu jason kratz u uicvm uic edu writes i have been at a shooting range where gang members were practicing shooting in article apr csd newshost stanford edu andy sail stanford edu andy freeman says how do we know that they were gang members and not undercover cops or even law abiding menacing minorities btw why the sneer quotes we know because the area that the gun shop shooting range is in is right on the border of the west side of chicago that is a gang infested area so kratz was there does that mean that he s a gang member even in the most gang infested areas most of the residents are not gang members that only minorities have gangs not so as far as the quotes are concerned it was totally obvious that they weren t just practicing for marksmanship how was it obvious were they not trying to hit the target or does kratz confuse marksmanship with trying to simulate a post if so that excludes self defense shooting but the rest of us understand that that exclusion would be an error it excludes a lot of legit gun games as well don t know about you but i have never seen anyone else practice marksmanship by taking their gun out of their coat as fast as possible and start shooting sounds like practical pistol or maybe ipsc it also sounds like how a self defense shooter might well practice the only things that action excludes are hunting and like a post shooting kratz should get out more often andy
talk.politics.guns	re guns in backcountry no thanks in article qkcok s i usenet ins cwru edu ci cleveland freenet edu john k gever writes public health experts will tell you that you are far more likely have your gun stolen use it yourself on a family member or have it used on you than you are to use it on an actual criminal actually they won t what they ll tell you is that if you add up the number of suicides murders of one drug dealer by another legit self defenses of a battered spouse and so on you ll end up with a number that is much larger than the number of self defense killings against strangers committed in the bedroom btw they didn t honestly count the latter either but let s not quibble they try to claim that comparison is between the costs of self defense and the benefits but they re wrong this comparison doesn t measure the costs of self defense and it doesn t measure the benefits either for example the goal is not to kill the attacker whatever your relationship to him but to stop him while the number of killings may be proportional to the number of stops it isn t equal anyone who confuses that comparison with an honest evaluation is either lying or andy
talk.politics.guns	re change of name in article cmm thomasp surt ifi uio no thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no writes note my posting was in reply to those about fbi torching the plasce after filling it with napalm and arrested people dissapering about waco it looks to me as the batf and fbi can t handle situations like this the way it went reminds me of stun bomb beeing dropped on a house in la from a helicopter whole block went up in flames died it doesn t have to be a conspiracy maybe they just screwed up i don t think we ve got a conspiracy on our hands or anything vaugely similar i do think that the feds showed a distinct lack of both intelligence and disregard for others safety throughout this whole mess i do think the fbi and the batf screwed up big what made me really concerned was fbi director william sessions being on cnn engaging in what could only be called spin control before the place had even cooled down evertyhing had literally blown up in their faces and i felt there had to be something more important he should have been doing david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
talk.politics.guns	re cnn for sale in article c somx hmd boi hp com kde boi hp com keith emmen writes if anyone is keeping a list of the potential contributors you can put me down for under the conditions above seems to me folks that if you are so interested in acquiring cnn just buy your worth of stock today it s being traded everyday after you own your piece we can work on the proxy votes later it s probably even a good investment chuck harris wa uqv chuck eng umd edu
talk.politics.guns	re waco clinton press conference part in article feustelc tw p netcom com feustel netcom com david feustel writes i predict that the outcome of the study of what went wrong with the federal assault in waco will result in future assaults of that type being conducted as full scale military operations with explicit shoot to kill directives you mean they aren t already could have fooled me remember waco who will the government decide to murder next maybe you opinions are mine i don t care if you blame the university or the state
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card in article cmm thomasp surt ifi uio no thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no writes i don t remember the figures exactly but there were about deaths in texas in that was caused by guns how about firearm related this is more than those beeing killed in car accidents texas is unusual in this regard it would be nice to reduce them both though as texas doesn t appear to have an murder rate that much higher than the national average i would expect it is a result of a much higher suicide rate i should not suffer because of others be nice if you didn t have to suffer at all we all agree on this one but we also live in a sociaty and therefor we ll have to give up some of our freedom note the here s where we run into a problem i am perfectly willing to have government regulation on something which is likely to cause others harm what we re discussing though is the extreme regulation of a large group in order to target a small group and i don t think that s appropriate do you have an insurance then you ll have to pay because of what others do do you buy anything you are paying for those who return goods steal or even those who gets a bonus do you live with other people then you can t do ererything you d want burping farting playing music loud does this then justify anything at some point you have to draw a line at least to my way of thinking where the government must have something a little more substantial than a set of percentages with which to punish an individual where do you draw the line or is there one one state don t remember which texas tried to impose a rule that you could only buy one gun each month think you all know what happened virginia it passed i respect the right to defend yourself but that right should not inflict on other people does it it seems like you all realize that you have a problem in america the only problem is that you won t take the car away from the drunk driver you hope to cure him first cute analogy the u s doesn t treat drunk driving like a serious crime however we also don t confiscate cars of people who drink we also don t confiscate all cars because some people drink and drive it s the core of the legal system that in order to punish an individual and i d call property confiscation a punishment you must have evidence against that individual that is it isn t enough to show that the majority of people convicted of murder are white in order to convict a particular white guy of murder hope life comfirms to the standard of winnie the poh huh david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
talk.politics.guns	re impeach clinton reno i heartily agree now that the batf warrant has been unsealed it is clear that clinton and reno supported an illegal raid did they not know this no authority for a no knock raid no authority to use helicopters no authority to search for a drug lab and apparently not even any authority to search for automatic weapons days of government lies sorry i missed all this can you please give an update on the warrant i hadn t heard that it was unsealed there was no authority for a no knock this is news how about an ok for a wiretap please summarize
talk.politics.guns	re waco they did it masada fcrary ucsu colorado edu frank crary writes msn reef cis ufl edu mike hk g zf full auto newsome writes i m sick to my stomach as i write this the bd compound is on fire and will burn to the ground in minutes i used exactly this one word reply to suggest a likely ending to the siege several weeks ago but like masada this wasn t entirely a government action the defenders held out as long as they could and then killed themselves their families and their children rather than surrender israel calls the action of the zelots heroic and trains their army to follow this example now that someone has repeated this action in modern times what do we call it liberals and supporters of clinton say that costs made the action necessary steve podleski phone nasa lewis research center cleveland ohio email pspod hooch lerc nasa gov
talk.politics.guns	re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes in article c rrot mmm rice edu fontenot ravl rice edu dwayne jacques fontenot writes in article c rpoj ijv news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes in article apr stortek com vojak icebucket stortek com bill vojak writes point out that even if the fire was set by someone inside of the building it came as a direct result of the actions of the fbi batf and the people inside including children deserved a trial instead of this well they had over days to come out with their hands up on national tv to get the trial they deserved instead they chose to set fire to their compund hours after the tanks dropped off the tear gas correction the fbi says that the davidians set fire to their buildings and i suppose the fbi also prevented them from coming out with their hands up while national tv cameras watch well the attorneys of the davidians reported on larry king that the tanks had actually damaged the structure to the extent that effectuating egress from the building was difficult at best with a rapidly spreading fire and large amounts of smoke and tear gas finding the right exits or acceptible holes in the walls were nearly impossible i find this explanation to be completely plausible doesn t mean that it s true but i don t find it intrinsically less believable than the government stories the fbi also said that the davidians had a methanphetamine lab in their basement and that the davidians had cal machine guns do you believe everything the fbi says do you disbelieve everything the fbi says i balance my gut reaction to question authority together with the independent facts as i see them on video i usually adopt the scenario that is simplest and most plausible i do not generally believe in conspiracy theories that involve complicated and unlikely scenarios i concur the batf is by no means devoid of fault in the handling of this affair but to suggest that they may have intentionally started the fire is ludicrous indeed according to the lawyers the davidian survivors say that lanterns were knocked over during the probing and that s how the fire started a tragic accident if true do you trust that snivelling little piece of sh t special agent ricks he seems to think he is a comedian and the media who laugh at his sick jokes are just as guilty as he imho up until now the batf had been making me sick today the people inside the compound who set the fire made me sick keeping the children inside the compund when they should have been released earlier with the other people weeks ago is absolutely inexcuseable not releasing them before deciding to set the place afire is the work of madmen two of the nine who escaped the compound said the fire was deliberately set by cult members correction the fbi says that two of the nine said the fire was deliberately set by the sect members if the fire were set by accident or by people outside the compound i would have expected far more cult members to flee the compound or at least come out shooting see above this one is going to be thoroughly investigated maybe we ll eventually get some idea of what happened my view is that from beginning to end this operation was a botch and that it is completely possible that nut cases who were otherwise law abiding citizens were victims of a bureaucratic execution paul hager hagerp moose cs indiana edu i would give the devil benefit of the law for my own safety s sake from a man for all seasons by robert bolt
talk.politics.guns	re guns in backcountry no thanks in article apr midway uchicago edu pkgeragh gsbphd uchicago edu kevin geraghty writes wrong about the whole guns for protection mindset it ignores the systemic effects of cumulative individual actions if you want fire insurance on your house that s prudent and it has no effect on me but if you and a bunch of other paranoids are packing handguns in the backcountry it makes me and anyone else who doesn t chose to protect himself in this manner pretty f king nervous why if you re not a threat you re not affected at all i mean take this to its logical conclusion suppose we all carried handguns all the time for protection from all the other people carrying handguns would we collectively be or feel safer hell no we d feel a lot more insecure why i note that the available psych info says that feelings of security increase the victimization stats say that that increase is rational another systemic effect of all the good people protecting themselves is that the bad people are going to modify their behavior in response yes they are but how they re going to be much itchier and much more willing to kill people in the course of routine muggings if they think their nope that doesn t happen instead the switch among those who change behaviors to property crimes that s an improvement even if the economic take is unchanged sure not everyone switches but they were killing before andy
talk.politics.guns	re backcountry confidence in article c l e gh murdoch acc virginia edu rbw q rayleigh mech virginia edu brad whitehurst writes the rest of us fall in the middle there is too much violent crime in the u s but turning the whole country into an old time dodge city ref to american old west is not the way that s an interesting statement there s quite a difference between hollywood s old west and the real one yes there were drunks saloons mining camps and thugs however as mcgrath showed the thugs preyed almost exclusively on one another mcgrath claims that this was due to the fact that no one much cared if someone who insisted on getting into a fight got his way even if he lost while they really did care when thugs preyed on others citizens should be able to own weapons but we see no sense in some types we haven t figured out that those distinctions don t actually work machine guns have been strictly regulated since said regulation is both perfect legally owned machine guns aren t ever used criminally and a complete waste of time the criminal use of machine guns hasn t change at all the result we re now arguing about guns that look like machine guns but are no different than other guns andy
talk.politics.guns	re dillon puts foot in mouth film at i have also heard about hci claiming thant anyone they get an address from is a member if this is the case their membership rolls are grossly inflated and we should not call them and give them a name and address to add to their already false rolls perhaps if you could get a copy of their existing membership then pretend to be an existing member do that several thousand times you could hurt hci but names are power remeber the nra uses the fact that it has million paid members in order to flex its muscles perhaps politicians don t realize the lying tactics of hci wait a minute hci learned it from politicians later josh
talk.politics.guns	re dillon puts foot in mouth so the blue press suggests that we bankrupt hci by requesting information and the concern by list members is that hci will claim everyone that calls as a new member i think they will i also think they will claim a new mandate to ban all firearms from the solar system wheter we call and ask for information or not on the other hand with due respect to the editor of the blue press just becaue mike makes damned good presses dies powder scales and got tired of lee s atacks does not mean that every dillon fan follows what mike calls for like he was karesh and we were transdillidians our local state assemblyman has called for a complete ban on all non bolt action military rifles and all assault weapons a day wait for purchase permits it currently takes to working days here in nc and one permit year the flood of calls he got was for and against guess who called supporting his move guess what ila is doing right chl
talk.politics.guns	re dillon puts foot in mouth film at in article aa sun panix com justice panix com michael justice writes dillon has published a letter in the blue press telling people how to bankrupt hci by requesting information from them last time this idea went around in rec guns a couple of people said that hci counts all information requestors as members can anyone confirm or deny this if true what s the impact of hci getting a few thousand new members last i heard hci had something like k members to the nra s million if true and they want to play duelling mandates well the polymath aka jerry hollombe m a cdp aka hollombe polymath tti com head robot wrangler at citicorp laws define crime ocean park blvd x police enforce laws santa monica ca citizens prevent crime
talk.politics.guns	re jffo has gone a bit too far rats cbnewsc cb att com morris the cat writes would somebody please post evidence that the gun control act of is a verbatim transcription of a nazi law the evidence is that the two laws are basically identical however that s not evidence that one is a copy of the other there s no evidence that the gca s authors used the nazi law as a guide yes they ended up with roughly the same thing but that comes from their shared goal disarming those menacing minorities i thought the same thing too until jpfo s rkba article in the latest guns ammo at the newstands this article makes it certain that sen thomas dodd d md back before definitely asked for a translation of the german weapons laws back then read the article and see what you think of jpfo s argument they note that ted kennedy and john dingell are among the three of the originals left from the stuff and they are asking that folks request of john dingell that he introduce legislation to lift gca something which i would support whole heartedly andy can someone post a general idea of what gca does thanks
talk.politics.guns	re constitutionality of u s c o brians atlastele com brian sheets writes you know i was reading u s c and something just did not make sence and i was wondering if someone could help me out say u s c except as provided in paragraph it shall be unlawful for any person to transfer or possess a machinegun well i got to looking in my law dictionary and i found that a person might also be an artificial entity that is created by government and has no rights under the federal constitution so what i don t understand is how a statute like can be enforced on an individual so someone tell me how my government can tell me what i can or cannot possess just passing a law does not make it law everyone knows that laws are constitional until it goes to court so has it ever gone to court not just your run of the mill ok i had it i am guilty put me in jail has anyone ever claimed that they had a right to possess and was told by the supreme court that they didn t have that right brian sheets truck what truck support engineer o o atlas telecom inc raiders of the lost ark brians atlastele com u i m not a lawyer but to the best of my understanding the congress has no more rights than what is enumerated in the constitution that is the prime reason why the national firearms act is based on collecting revenue since the congress has the authority to levy taxes the nfa is a tax act and the registration requirement within it is to assist in that tax collection u s c in order to be constitutional must have a basis on a particular authority granted to the congress by the constitution congress can not arbitrarily ban a substance or product that is why prohibition came into effect only by passing an ammendment what you said about constitutionality of law needs to be clarified i believe that an unconstitutional law was never constitutional when a law is determined by the supreme court to be unconstitutional that law was never really a law the very nature of the law being unconstitutional invalidates the law at it s inception please correct me if i m wrong but when a law is deemed to be unconstitutional anyone convicted of breaking that law is absolved i don t believe u s c has ever been challenged in court nfa has been invalidated in two federal district court cases one may have been appellate level u s vs rock island armory and u s vs dalton
talk.politics.guns	re ban all firearms jrm gnv ifas ufl edu firearms tend to fall into this low dollar pound area it would not be economic to smuggle them in all production would have to be local there are not all that many people who have both the skill and motivation to assemble worthwhile firearms from scratch high ranking crime figures could obtain imported uzis and such but the average person and average thug would be lucky to get a zip gun and would pay through the nose for it good point you make however a zip gun by definition is a crude homemade gun certainly not something capable of sustained accurate fire but it would be useful as a means of getting a normal gun recall the tiny single shot pistols made by the allies during world war ii for use by partisans they were essentially well made zipguns incapable of effective fire beyond a few feet but they were useful as a means of killing german soldiers for their guns also note that the crowd pleasin favorite the sten gun was specifically designed to require as little machine work as possible the point s been made here that one could make a sten clone with steel tubing hand tools and a welder i still think that while the point is good i think there s a difference between marijuana and firearms in that quality marijuana can be grown locally there s no need to import the stuff if guns are banned i think the demand for real guns will be sufficient to make smuggling economically feasible thus rendering a ban moot in any case the result would be the same people who aren t criminals won t have firearms and bad guys will continue to have access to them one way or another and i don t see that as a necessary situation allan j heim allanh sco com uunet sco allanh
talk.politics.guns	re fyi batf reply on waco in article c l k u elite intel com dgw elite intel com dennis willson writes on february the special agents attempting to serve the federal search warrant were all dressed in apparel clearly identified with the letters atf and a highly visible police type badge additionally the special agents announced who they were and their purpose for being at the compound immediately following this announcement gunfire erupted from the compound resulting in the deaths of four atf special agents and the wounding of several others through no fault of atf the element of surprise was lost which caused the tragedy this statement simply amazes me through no fault of atf the element of surprise was lost what element of surprise in the paragraph preceding this one he said the special agents announced who they were and their purpose for being at the compound which was to serve the federal warrant no element of surprise was even needed for that no the element of surprise that they lost was that needed for a preemptive first strike without warning inasmuch as the warrants remain sealed by a u s magistrate and the investigation remains in an active ongoung status we are prohibited from disclosing any further information at this time read they need to wait until they see how it comes out before they fabricate anymore which could get disproven we hope we have been responsive to your letter please let us know whenever we may be of service sincerely yours daniel m h l tt can t make out signature deputy director as always no facts just my opinions observations jim jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov
talk.politics.guns	re need info on and suicide for refutation entropic destroyer loki acca nmsu edu wrote i have seen these numbers quoted before and i have seen very specific refutation of them quoted as well if someone will be so kind as to email the relevant information i will write a letter to the editor of the co daily which might get published and send a copy to usn wr as well thanks to all who responded the letter has been written making liberal use of info provided by various net folks and handed to the paper i ll post if it gets into the paper dan dod loki acca nmsu edu liberty or death taylordf ucsu colorado edu send me something even you can t read
talk.politics.guns	re guns in backcountry no thanks hi in canada any gun that enters a national park must be sealed i think it s a small metal tag that s placed over the trigger the net result of this is that you can t use a gun to protect yourself from bears or psychos in the national parks instead one has to be sensitive to the dangers and annoyances of hiking in bear country and take the appropriate precautions i think this policy makes the users of the national parks feel a little closer to nature that they are a part of nature and as such have to deal with nature on it s own terms guy
talk.politics.guns	re the truth starts to come out in article c ua r dad da vinci it uswc uswest com pprun august it uswc uswest com writes i have just one thing to say about this write your congressperson the fbi and batf storm troopers must not be allowed to get away with this demand a full investigation of the waco survivor s story of the lantern being knocked over by the tank we can t bring anybody back from the dead but we may be able to send a few of them to political hell i heard over npr yesterday morning that arlan specter senator from pennsylvania has already called for a congressional investigation the problem is that specter was one of the key government attorneys several years ago who did what he could to coverup facts in the assassinations of jfk and others that is to say the chief fox wants to check out the hen house writing your representatives is a great idea when you do ask that they keep specter and his cronies far away from any investigation would someone please post the generic addresses for congress and senate so that we can all write letters joe gaut in the super state it really does not f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu matter at all what actually happened red neck and proud of it truth is what the government chooses to tell you justice is what it wants to happen jim garrison new orleans la
talk.politics.guns	re waco clinton press conference part cathyf is rice edu catherine anne foulston writes could y all please stop posting this stuff to tx general tx politics is sufficient and is where this stuff belongs thanks cathy cathy foulston rice university network systems support cathyf rice edu why
talk.politics.guns	re andy how do we stop people with a gun in article apr freenet carleton ca ac freenet carleton ca nikolaus maack writes come on a gun kills people rather people kill people with guns the sad truth is sometimes that is good or at least better than the alternative but let s ignore guns for defence and or crime and look at gun accidents ok there are about fatal firearm accidents per year and the number has been in decline since early this century most of these accidents involve rifles or shot guns not handguns but seriously a gun is designed to fire a bullet this is not so you can shoot cardboard cut outs down at the range in fact there are both guns and bullets designed specifically for that the idea that my ruger mark ii bull barrel a semi auto caliber handgun was designed to kill or hurt people even for self defense would i m sure come as a surprise to its designer it certainly isn t why i have it it certainly would hurt someone if you shot them with it and might even kill them but it is simply wrong to say it was designed to kill people this is not designed to act as a tool for home defence where you show someone that you have a gun and they go gee perhaps i should leave in fact that is what happens most of the time most self defensive uses of firearms don t involve firing any shots most criminals would prefer not to be shot and will go to some effort not to be including doing what you say when you point a gun at them if you were called on to design a tool that could be easily carried to immediately stop someone attacking you what would it be a handgun is about the best anyone has come up with and experience shows it does work the best no you see the gun was designed to fire that little bullet into a human body and hurt them not a tough concept to swallow for most certainly no one argues that handguns of the type we are discussing aren t deadly weapons however it simply isn t true to say that all of them were designed to kill people moreover what exactly is wrong with having deadly weapons there are times when it is perfectly legitimate to use deadly force e g in self defense i consider it not just my right but my duty to defend myself and my family and that includes having and knowing how to use the tools to do that the strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is as a last resort to protect themselves against tyranny in government t jefferson i think what jefferson said is still true and the trouble with having such an item is often the little bullet goes off into the wrong fleshy target not very often compared to other use or else uncle frank gets pissed and blows away his wife this isn t that common either at least when compared to other uses it is very rare that a non violent person will suddenly get pissed and kill someone gun or not in most cases the people who murder have long histories of violence if you have good reason to believe that these people wouldn t kill if they didn t have a gun feel free to present it having a thing specificly designed to kill means it is much easier to kill things right right but there are times when killing things is called for i hope i never have to shoot a person but i ve had to kill a number of animals from rodents to cows and when i do i don t want them to suffer any more than is necessary i prefer they die instantly but failing that i want them to drop so i can quickly finish them with the next shot and failing that i don t want them to go fast or far i try to choose the best weapon and ammunition i have to try to achieve that goal for the size of animal i m after but it doesn t always work as i plan without belaboring the point people who are overly impressed with the killing or shopping power of guns particularly handguns haven t used them much for that purpose accidental deaths in deaths by auto deaths by fall deaths by drowning deaths by fire deaths by poison deaths by food deaths by firearm source statistics department national safety council accidents facts edition national safety council n michigan avenue chicago il rkba declining trend of accidental deaths by firearms version last changed on at description the accidental deaths by firearm per capita has been declining steadily for almost sixty years in the accidental deaths by firearm per people was in it was the decline has been steady consistent and a fairly straight line when plotted at the rate of the last sixty years it will reach zero sometime around ad conclusion firearms have been a declining factor in accidental deaths for over sixty years despite rising per capita gun ownership year population accidental deaths accidental deaths per sources u s bureau of the census historical statistics of the united states colonial times to bicentennial edition part washington dc u s bureau of the census statistical abstract of the united states th edition washington dc sic u s bureau of the census statistical abstract of the united states th edition washington dc kleck gary guns and self defense crime control through the use of force in the private sector social problems pp orstcs opac bug stevef i am the nra steven r fordyce uunet sequent ether stevef the only fair tax is no tax
talk.politics.guns	statement to everyone on t p g ok here goes yes folks i realize i have stuck my foot in my mouth quite a few times already so please let me make some clarifications my inaccurate information in my posts was due to lack of knowledge thanks to you kind and some not so kind people i am learning some people have given me several good points to ponder and i see how i was wrong in no way was this inaccurate information supposed to be trying to further the anti gun cause i have said several times before but nobody seemed to be listening that i am pro gun and anti gun control as far as the race can of worms that i have opened up i have only one thing to say i am in no way prejudiced some of the things i have stated were said to demonstrate that i am not prejudiced and or a racist but i have been accused of being too aware of race and prejudiced i will not say anymore about that subject because no matter what i say it will be the wrong thing boy what a start to being on a new group oh well things have been worse in my life i hope this clears things up but i guess that will remain to be seen by for now jason
talk.politics.guns	re criminals machineguns in apr csd newshost stanford edu andy sail stanford edu andy freeman writes in article u uicvm uic edu jason kratz u uicvm uic edu writes people are getting killed by gang violence every day every single day i hear about more people getting killed by gang violence and see some of the weapons that are being confiscated is kratz claiming that he can reliably visually distinguish an m from an ar that he can see the difference between a semi auto and a full auto uzi that he can see the difference between the various versions some full auto some semi auto only of the m well let me see uzi no m no m ar maybe i remember there being a selector swtich on the ar if i remember correctly please correct me if i m wrong the switch would set to an off position or an on position because the gun ar is semi automatic wouldn t the m have a position for semi auto fire and full auto fire or maybe round bursts if this is correct wouldn t it be easy to distinguish each gun by this alone of course if the ar were modified to full auto fire i wouldn t think it would be that easy but i m talking about distinguishing between an unmodified ar and m how about the other guns do they also have selector switch to switch between semi auto and fully auto fire if so i d love to hear the details if only because they ll demonstrate that kratz is blowing smoke considering that one can design a gun so that it looks just like another gun yet have very different properties and that that s quite common most kids in my neighborhood were quite young when they figured out that my parents car wasn t much like richard petty s even though it looked just like it except for the paint job things must have been different with kratz actually it was pretty hard for the kids in my neighborhood to figure that out as richard petty lived in my neighborhood and left his stock car in the driveway sure it s on tv but why does that make a difference no it doesn t but that s irrelevant if visual inspection of the outside worked tv would be acceptable but since it doesn t the fact that it s just as good as seeing in person doesn t mean much well what about what i said above if that is correct i guess tv would be acceptable if you had a good enough picture and a picture of the lower receiver of the ar m andy gave kratz a chance to back down on this in private jason kratz didn t take andy s offer to back down in private
talk.politics.guns	re ban all firearms as quoted from apr microsoft com by anthonyf microsoft com anthony francisco cmort if anybody wanted proof of the nonsense of the you can t build guns claim they need look no farther than the philippines amateur gunsmiths there regularly produce everything from automatics to full auto shotguns now if this guy wants to claim that the philippines is either technologically superior to the us or that their transportation is better than ours all i can say is that he s living in a fantasy world unfortunately a few of those s blow up in your hands that s life first you marry imelda marcos then you die on the other hand my compatriots built an excellent copy of a beretta that i enjoyed using when i lived in the philippines hmmmm and that s the hard stuff to copy you re like a bunch of over educated new york jewish aclu lawyers fighting to eliminate school prayer from the public schools in arkansas holly silva
talk.politics.guns	re some more about gun control in article rwing uucp pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes what i find so hard to understand is how come some people apparantly not connected with government or otherwise privileged will go to great lengths redefinitions re interpretations in a full bore attempt to throw away the protection of their own rights under the constitution almost makes me think of lemmings running into the sea during a lemming year i really wonder that jefferson and madison would say to these folks they d probably quote montesque sp who was once asked if russia was likely to become a democracy any time soon no because russia is a nation of slaves and the people get what they deserve since he said that russia has changed a great deal but so unfortunately have other nations frank crary cu boulder
talk.politics.guns	re my gun is like my american express card gun clubs if you are a member you can borrow weapons suprised you are supposed to train with a for the months then you can start with anything bigger drivers licence forgot that usa is the land of cars getting one in scandinavia and northern europe is not easy average time is about hours of training and the cost is rather but we think this is acceptable because a car is not a toy and bad drivers tend to hurt others if you are really bad you won t get a lincence abuse by the goverment this seems to be one of the main problems any harder gun control would just be abused by the goverment either some of you are a little paranoid no offence or you should get a new goverment you do have elections guns n criminals most weapons used by criminals today are stolen known criminals can not buy weapons that s one of the points of gun control and because gun control are strict in whole scandinavia and most of europe we dont have any problem with smuggled guns mixing weapons and things that can be use as one what i meant was that cars can kill but they are not guns someone said that if we ban guns we d have to ban cars to because they kill to i don t think we should argue on this one the issue i hope i think we all agree that the criminals are the main problem guns are not a problem but the way they are used is and what are they for i think this discusion is interesting when you think of ex jugoslavia they should all have weapons it s their rigth to have them and if they use them to kill other innocent people the problem is humans not guns if of all murders was done with axes would you impose some regulations on them or just say that they are ment to be used at trees and that the axe is not a problem it s the axer an example don t flame me just because not exactly are killed by guns think about the situation in los angeles where people are buying guns to protect themselves is this a good situation is it the rigth way to deal with the problem if everybody buys guns to protect themselves from criminals and their neighbor who have guns what do you think will happen i mean if everybody had a gun in usa don t flame the englishmen because of northern irland they have gun control that works in england and fonds from usa are one of the reasons why ira can bomb innocents something about throwing stones in glass houses don t flame them because of what to three children did either can an jugoslav have an oppinion on guns or even peace yes my numbers about crime rates after restrictions on shot guns are from the police and the statistisk sentralbyraa understood that one sorenson last word responsible gun owners are not a problem but they will be affected if you want to protect your citicens this is not a signature it s merely a computergenerated text to waste bandwith and to bring down the evil internet thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no
talk.politics.guns	re guns gone good riddance as quoted from apr gnv ifas ufl edu by jrm gnv ifas ufl edu the press is against you the public the voting public is against you the flow of history is against you this is it kind of sounds like plessy v ferguson huh of course as in that case things change huh too fucking bad you have gone the way of the kkk violent solutions are passe avoid situations which encourage criminals then you will be as safe as possible such as it is no if your little fantasy comes to pass the country will have gone toward the kkk you re of course being a little disengenuous violent solutions are never passe for the government and criminals who frequently cannot be distinguished avoid situations which encourage criminals you mean don t be a woman don t be black don t be gay i m quite certain that having a surfeit of unarmed victims will discourage your beloved kkk from engaging in violent solutions you re like a bunch of over educated new york jewish aclu lawyers fighting to eliminate school prayer from the public schools in arkansas holly silva
talk.politics.guns	the real reason politicians want guns confiscated politicians want to eliminate private ownership of guns before the general public starts violently resisting the tax increases needed to fund the federal government as an ever higher percentage of tax revenue goes to pay interest on the national debt currently cents out of every tax dollar collected and rising dave feustel n myi feustel netcom com i m beginning to look forward to reaching the allocation of taxes to pay for the interest on the national debt at that point the federal government will be will go out of business for lack of funds
talk.politics.mideast	re islam borders was israel misisipi to ganges in article bimacs bitnet ehrlich bimacs bitnet gideon ehrlich writes hassan and some other seemed not to be a ware that jews celebrating on these days thje passover holliday the holidy of going a way from the nile so if one let his imagination freely work it seemed beter to write that the zionist drean is from the misisipi to the nile the question is by going east or west from the misisipi on either choice you would loose palestine or broklyn n y i thought you re gonna say fromn misisipi back to the misisipi by the way what are the borders the islamic world dreams about islamic readers i am waiting to your honest answer let s say let s establish the islamic state first or let s free our occupied lands first and then we can dream about expansion mr gideon hasan
talk.politics.mideast	re how many mutlus can dance on the head of a pin in article israel nysernet org warren nysernet org writes in c xkbx f polaris async vt edu jfurr polaris async vt edu joel furr writes how many mutlus can dance on the head of a pin that reminds me of the armenian massacre of the turks joel i took out sct are we sure we want to invoke the name of he who greps for mason kibo s last name lest he include afu in his daily rounds i dunno warren just the other day i heard a rumor that serdar argic aka hasan mutlu and ahmed cosar and zumabot is not really a turk at all but in fact is an armenian who is attempting to make any discussion of the massacres in armenia of turks so noise laden as to make serious discussion impossible thereby cloaking the historical record with a tremendous cloud of confusion
talk.politics.mideast	re how many mutlus can dance on the head of a pin in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu jfurr nyx cs du edu joel furr writes in article israel nysernet org warren nysernet org writes in c xkbx f polaris async vt edu jfurr polaris async vt edu joel furr writes how many mutlus can dance on the head of a pin that reminds me of the armenian massacre of the turks joel i took out sct are we sure we want to invoke the name of he who greps for mason kibo s last name lest he include afu in his daily rounds i dunno warren just the other day i heard a rumor that serdar argic aka hasan mutlu and ahmed cosar and zumabot is not really a turk at all but in fact is an armenian who is attempting to make any discussion of the massacres in armenia of turks so noise laden as to make serious discussion impossible thereby cloaking the historical record with a tremendous cloud of confusion dis it possible to track down zuma and determine who what where seradr is if not why not i assu me his her its identity is not shielded by policies similar to those in place at anonymous services tim d d d very simpl
talk.politics.mideast	re if you feed armenians dirt you will bite dust in article apr urartu sdpa org dbd urartu sdpa org david davidian writes in article apr kth se hilmi er dsv su se hilmi eren writes david davidian says armenians have nothing to lose they lack food fuel and warmth if you fascists in turkey want to show your teeth good for you turkey has everything to lose you can yell and scream like barking dogs along the davidian who are fascists armenians in azerbaijan are killing azeri people invading azeri soil and they are not fascists because they lack food ha strange explanation there is no excuse for this situation herkesi fasist diye damgala sonra kendileri fasistligin alasini yapinca ac kaldilar da yiyecekleri yok amcasi bu seferlik affedin de yurrruuu yuru de plaka numarani alalim hakan
talk.politics.mideast	re jews in latvia some documents in article c zvvg d unix amherst edu nwbernst unix amherst edu neil bernstein writes pardon me here is to an amherst clown your three chiefs dro hamazasp and kulkhandanian are the ringleaders of the bands which have destroyed tartar villages and have staged massacres in zangezour surmali etchmiadzin and zangibasar this is intolerable this is about armenia were you expecting a different response here is another one source k s papazian patriotism perverted baikar press boston pages with appendix p third paragraph some real fighters sprang up from among the people who struck terror into the hearts of the turks within a few months after the war began these armenian guerrilla forces operating in close coordination with the russians were savagely attacking turkish cities towns and villages in the east massacring their inhabitants without mercy while at the same time working to sabotage the ottoman army s war effort by destroying roads and bridges raiding caravans and doing whatever else they could to ease russian occupation the atrocities committed by the armenian volunteer forces accompanying the russian army were so severe that the russian commanders themselves were compelled to withdraw them from the fighting fronts and sent them to rear guard duties the memoirs of many russian officers who served in the east at this time are filled with accounts of the revolting atrocities committed by these armenian guerrillas which were savage even by relatively primitive standards of war then observed in such areas journal de guerre du deuxieme d artillerie de forteresse russe d erzeroum p honored me by reproducing my text unfortunately he has still not produced the documents on jews in latvia instead he asks for my views on the turkish genocide well that debate seems to be going on in a few hundred other threads i ll let other people bring the usual charges try to debunk mutlu argic cosar a net wide terrorism triangle and their spurious evidence when that does ever happen look out the window to see if there is a non fascist x soviet armenian government in the east now where is your non existent list of scholars what a moronian during the first world war and the ensuing years the armenian dictatorship through a premeditated and systematic genocide tried to complete its centuries old policy of annihilation against the turks and kurds by savagely murdering million muslims and deporting the rest from their year homeland this paragraph is well written and interesting serdar baby but it has nothing to do with jews in latvia i have not presented a list of scholars how could you because there is none i am not interested in an ex soviet why do you write x it s very cute armenian government non fascist or otherwise you are not responding to what i am writing instead you are autoposting your own particular brand of bullshit like conversing with a brick wall and you are not responding to what i am writing by the way that bullshit is justly regarded as the first instance of genocide in the th century acted upon an entire people for nearly one thousand years the turkish and kurdish people lived on their homeland the last one hundred under the oppressive soviet and armenian occupation the persecutions culminated in the armenian government planned and carried out a genocide against its muslim subjects million turks and kurds were murdered and the remainder driven out of their homeland after one thousand years turkish and kurdish lands were empty of turks and kurds the survivors found a safe heaven in turkiye today x soviet armenian government rejects the right of turks and kurds to return to their muslim lands occupied by x soviet armenia today x soviet armenia covers up the genocide perpetrated by its predecessors and is therefore an accessory to this crime against humanity x soviet armenia must pay for its crime of genocide against the muslims by admitting to the crime and making reparations to the turks and kurds you have now done so four times in a row may i legitimately conclude that you are not indeed a regular net user but an auto posting computer program which for convenience i have called mutlu exe you may assert whatever you wish here we go with mutlu exe s famed list of sources ditto the attempt at genocide is justly regarded as the first instance of genocide in the th century acted upon an entire people this event is incontrovertibly proven by historians government and international political leaders such as u s ambassador mark bristol and on and on for lines and still anxiously awaiting so the list goes on and on and on i m still trying to find out about those jews in latvia can you post those documents pleeeeeeease mr argic puh leeze could you c mon it s my birthday in three weeks post them for me as a birthday present remember the issue at hand is the cold blooded genocide of million muslim people by the armenians between and the armenian nazi collaboration during world war ii anything to add no darling read what i post other people are asking you about the turkish genocide i am asking you to produce the documents on jews in latvia no matter how many times you erase what i post i will still post the same question post the documents on jews in latvia do not autopost the same block of text about the turkish genocide remember the issue at hand is the armenian nazi collaboration during world war ii and the turkish genocide and i still fail to see how you can challenge the following western sources source john dewey the new republic vol nov pp happy the minority jews which has had no christian nation to protect it and one recalls that the jews took up their abode in fanatic turkey when they were expelled from europe especially spain by saintly christians and they have lived here for centuries in at least as much tranquility and liberty as their fellow turkish subjects all being exposed alike to the rapacity of their common rulers to one brought up as most americans have been in the gladstonian and foreign missionary tradition the condition of the jews in turkey is almost a mathematical demonstration that religious differences have had an influence in the tragedy of turkey only as they were combined with aspirations for a political separation which every nation in the world would have treated as treasonable one readily reaches the conclusion that the jews in turkey were fortunate he also stated that they armenians traitorously turned turkish cities over to the russian invader that they boasted of having raised an army of one hundred and fifty thousand men to fight a civil war and that they burned at least a hundred turkish villages and exterminated their population i want the documents of jews in latvia i think several other people on soc culture greek are already disputing with you about the turkish genocide is this the joke of the month who when how where what a clown no sweetie the joke of the month is that you have now posted the same block of text four times but you still have not produced the documents on jews in latvia instead you post the same text you post in every other message that same old mccarthy table how appropriate it s named mccarthy how about prof shaw a jewish scholar source stanford j shaw on armenian collaboration with invading russian armies in history of the ottoman empire and modern turkey volume ii reform revolution republic the rise of modern turkey london cambridge university press pp in april dashnaks from russian armenia organized a revolt in the city of van whose armenians comprised percent of the population closest to an armenian majority of any city in the empire leaving erivan on april armenian volunteers reached van on may and organized and carried out a general slaughter of the local muslim population during the next two days while the small ottoman garrison had to retreat to the southern side of the lake knowing their numbers would never justify their territorial ambitions armenians looked to russia and europe for the fulfillment of their aims armenian treachery in this regard culminated at the beginning of the first world war with the decision of the revolutionary organizations to refuse to serve their state the ottoman empire and to assist instead other invading russian armies their hope was their participation in the russian success would be rewarded with an independent armenian state carved out of ottoman territories armenian political leaders army officers and common soldiers began deserting in droves with the russian invasion of eastern anatolia in at the beginning of world war i the degree of armenian collaboration with the ottoman s enemy increased drastically ottoman supply lines were cut by guerilla attacks armenian revolutionaries armed armenian civil populations who in turn massacred the muslim population of the province of van in anticipation of expected arrival of the invading russian armies source stanford j shaw history of the ottoman empire and modern turkey vol ii cambridge university press london pp meanwhile czar nicholas ii himself came to the caucasus to make final plans for cooperation with the armenians against the ottomans with the president of the armenian national bureau in tiflis declaring in response from all countries armenians are hurrying to enter the ranks of the glorious russian army with their blood to serve the victory of russian arms let the russian flag wave freely over the dardanelles and the bosporus let with your will great majesty the peoples remaining under the turkish yoke receive freedom let the armenian people of turkey who have suffered for the faith of christ receive resurrection for a new free life under the protection of russia armenians again flooded into the czarist armies preparations were made to strike the ottomans from the rear and the czar returned to st petersburg confident that the day finally had come for him to reach istanbul horizon tiflis november quoted by hovannisian road to independence p fo ottoman morale and military position in the east were seriously hurt and the way was prepared for a new russian push into eastern anatolia to be accompanied by an open armenian revolt against the sultan hovannisian road to independence pp bayur iii pp w e d allen and p muratoff caucasian battlefields cambridge pp ali ihsan sabis harb hahralaram vols ankara ii fo no fo fo nos and an armenian state was organized at van under russian protection and it appeared that with the muslim natives dead or driven away it might be able to maintain itself at one of the oldest centers of ancient armenian civilization an armenian legion was organized to expel the turks from the entire southern shore of the lake in preparation for a concerted russian drive into the bitlis vilayet thousands of armenians from mus and other major centers in the east began to flood into the new armenian state by mid july there were as many as armenians crowded into the van area which before the crisis had housed and fed no more than people muslim and non muslim alike hovannisian road to independence p fop nos and bva meclis i vukela mazbatalari debates of august babi i ali evrak odasi no van ihtilali ve katl i ami zilkade september muslim population exterminated by the armenians lines deleted why who gives a thunder about your pseudo scholar jokes i am arguing about the armenian nazi colaboration during world war ii any comment argue it with someone else or do not reply to my posts argic my love i am not arguing about the armenian nazi collaboration i do not give a thunder about it i want you to do one of three things a admit that you are not a regular user but a computer autoposting turkish propaganda or b post the documents on jews in latvia or c run away like the coward without a real address that you are and do not reply to my posts it could be perhaps your head wasn t screwed on just right in while the jews were being assembled for their doom in the nazi concentration camps the armenian volunteers in germany formed the first armenian battalion to fight alongside the nazis in this battalion had grown into eight battalions of strong under the command of the former guerilla leader dro the butcher who was the former dictator of the short lived armenian dictatorship and the architect of the cold blooded genocide of million turks and kurds between an armenian national council was formed by the notorious dashnak party leaders in berlin which was recognized by the nazis encouraged by this the armenians summarily formed a provisional government that endorsed and espoused fully the principles of the nazis and declared themselves as the members of the aryan super race and full participants to hitler s policy of extermination of the jews this armenian nazi conspiracy against the jews during wwii was an encore performance staged by the armenians during wwi when they back stabbed and exterminated million turks by colluding with the invading russian army furthermore as mccarthy put it the armenian dictatorship was granted a respite when the ottomans admitted defeat and signed the mudros armistice with the allies october the allies had decided to create a greater armenia including the old russian province of yerevan and adjoining areas as well as most parts of anatolia claimed by the armenian fanatics only the area called cilicia around the ottoman province of adana was to be excluded as it had already been claimed by the french the allies quickly set about attempting to disarm ottoman soldiers and other turks who could be expected to oppose their plans on april the british army occupied kars gave civilian and military power over to the armenians then withdrew the british planned for kars to be included in the armenian dictatorship even though the russian pre war census had shown kars province to be over muslim the turks of kars were effectively disarmed but the british could not disarm the kurds of the mountains the fate of the turks was almost an exact replica of what had occurred earlier in eastern anatolia murder pillage genocide and the destruction of turkish homes and entire turkish villages drove the turks of kars to the mountains or south and west to the safety afforded by remaining units of the ottoman army the british had left the scene to the armenian genocide squads therefore few europeans were present to observe the genocide one british soldier colonel rawlinson who was assigned to supervise the disarmament of otoman soldiers saw what was occurring rawlinson wired to his superiors in the interest of humanity the armenians should not be left in independent command of the moslim population as their troops being without discipline and not being under effective control atrocities were constantly being committed instead you post more armenian nonsense come again these european dashnags with headquarters in berlin appealed to lines deleted why no wonder you are in such a mess here are the armenian sources on the turkish holocaust lines deleted why list of dead armenians lines deleted obrother spell it out list of dead muslims source documents volume i document no archive no cabin no drawer no file no section no contents no to acting supreme command socialist salah cimcoz socialist nesim mazelyah armenian gangs have been murdering and inflicting cruelties on innocent people of the region this verified information supported by clear statements of reliable eyewitnesses was also confirmed by general odishelidje commander of the russian caucasian army armenians are entering every place evacuated by russians carrying out murders cruelties rape and all kind of atrocities which cannot be expressed in writing murdering all the women children aged people who happen to be in the street these barbarous murders repeated every day with new methods continue and the russian army has been urged to intervene to terminate these atrocities public opinion is appalled and horrified newspapers are describing the happenings as shocking we have decided to inform all our friends urgently about the situation document no archive no cabin no drawer no file no section no contents no to acting supreme command commander rd army general the situation in the cities of erzincan and erzurum which we have recently taken over is given below these two beautiful cities of our country which are alike in the calamities and destruction which they suffered have been destroyed as the specially designed and built public and private buildings of these cities were deliberately burnt by armenians apart from the destruction suffered during the two year russian occupation all barracks buildings of erzincan the cavalry barracks in erzurum the government building and army corps headquarters are among those burnt in short both cities are burnt destroyed and trees cut down as to the people of these cities all people old enough to use weapons rounded up taken to the sarikamis direction for road building and were slaughtered the remaining people were subject to cruelties and murder by armenians following the withdrawal of russians and were partly annihilated the corpses thrown into wells burnt in houses mutilated by bayonets their abdomens ripped open in slaughterhouses their lungs and livers torn out girls and women hung up by their hair after all kinds of devilish acts the few people who were able to survive these cruelties worse than those of the spanish inquisition are in poverty more dead than alive horrified some driven insane about in erzincan and in erzurum the people are hungry and in poverty for whatever they had has been taken away from them their lands left uncultivated the people have just been able to exist with some provisions found in stores left over from the russians the villages round erzincan and erzurum are in the worst condition some villages on the road have been leveled to the ground leaving no stone the people completely massacred let me submit to your information with deep grief and regret that history has never before witnessed cruelties at such dimensions a long list a long list and still anxiously awaiting serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	day and night armenians were rounding up male inhabitants in article locust cs duke edu wiener duke cs duke edu eduard wiener writes sure it joined you by ballot in and i suppose that northern bukovina where i was born which has always had that s why zoologists refer to you as a fecal shield colonel semen m budienny a subsequent soviet military fame said about the armenian genocide of million defenseless turkish and kurdish women children and elderly people during his visit to anatolia in june that the armenians had become troublemakers their hinchakist and dashnakist parties were opportunist serving as lackeys of whatever power happened to be ascendent in september major general w thwaites director of military intelligence wrote to lord hardinge under secretary of state for foreign affairs it is useless to pretend that the armenians are satisfactory allies or deserving of all the sympathy to which they claim f o in the special collection at stanford hoover library donated by georgia cutler the letter dated nov states that prescot hall wrote a large volume to prove that armenians were not and never could be desirable citizens that they would always be unscrupulous merchants source documents volume i document no archive no cabin no drawer no file no section no contents no to th division command militia commander ismail hakki for eight days armenians have been forcibly obstructing people from leaving their homes or going from one village to the other day and night they are rounding up male inhabitants taking them to unknown destinations after which nothing further is heard of them informed from statements of those who succeeded in escaping wounded from the massacres around taskilise ruins women and children are being openly murdered or are being gathered in the church square and similar places most inhuman and barbarous acts have been committed against moslems for eight days document no archive no cabin no drawer no file no section no contents no to st caucasian army corps command nd caucasian army corps command communications zone inspectorate commander rd army general as almost all russian units opposite our front have been withdrawn the population loyal to us in regions behind the russian positions are facing an ever increasing threat and suppression as well as cruelties and abuses by armenians who have decided to systematically annihilate the moslem population in regions under their occupation i have regularly informed the russian command of these atrocities and cruelties and i have gained the impression that the above authority seems to be failing in restoring order serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re facts about wtc bombing backon vms huji ac il writes in article pll sms usenet ins cwru edu cl cleveland freenet edu hamaza h salah writes who is josie hadas i see you didn t notice my recent posting the fbi found that josie hadas was simply an alias taken by salameh i have the sources for the information in the chronology including the ny daily news of march that reports the arrest of josie hadas and a copy of the foreign press reports of her release shortly afterwards what is the source for your alias story and pray tell me how can the fbi arrest and release an alias what is the relationship between that person and the israeli mussad zilch zero nothing like the iq of the idiot who posted this absurdity in the first place what has iq to do with collecting information and putting it forward why has the fbi refused comment on the guardian reporter s question about hadas link with israeli intelligence the information did not mention the mossad explicitly
talk.politics.mideast	re islam borders vs israeli borders in article c wjj j r newsflash concordia ca ilyess ece concordia ca ilyess bdira writes in article bimacs bitnet ehrlich bimacs bitnet gideon ehrlich writes what are the borders the islamic world dreams about the islamic world dreams of being the whole planet but not by kicking the current inhabitant out we rather deam of the day everybody converts if jews had the same dream i would not feel threatened a bit there certainly are muslims who do not believe that their dream of a global islamic community should be achieved through force there are however others and they are often far more visible vocal than the former who do accept the establishment of global islam through force i would not feel threatened by those only accepting or pursuing islamicization through peaceful means nor by jews advocating the same approach those advocating force as a means of expanding their side s power are certainly a threat to palestinians israel is doing just that maintaining its dominance of those outside its own group if i am told that i am not one of you but you then impose your control on me damn right you are a threat if i am a member of a non muslim minority inside the islamic world and actively did not accept my minority status i would also certainly see islam s domination as having been acheived and maintained through the powerful coercive force all majorities wield over minorities within their ranks islamic readers i am waiting to your honest answer i want also a honest answer from zionists for the following questions i am not a zionist but do feel that both jewish and palestinian nationalist desires need at this juncture to be accepted in some way why do jews who don t even believe in god as is the case with many of the founders of secular zionism have a right in palestine more than the inhabitants of palestine just because god gave you the land for the same reason that some muslims believe it is proper and righteous for islam to be spread by force upon those who do not want that why do most of them speak of the west bank as theirs while most of the inhabitants are not jews and do not want to be part of israel i refer to the most you also refer to because they are scared and feel very threatened as well feeling that this area is to some degree part of their belief religion heritage identity etc i too strongly object to those that justify israeli rule of those who do not want that the occupied territories are not israel s to control to keep or to dominate tim
talk.politics.mideast	re islam borders vs israeli borders in article c wjj j r newsflash concordia ca ilyess ece concordia ca ilyess bdira writes why do jews who don t even believe in god as is the case with many of the founders of secular zionism have a right in palestine more than the inhabitants of palestine just because god gave you the land g d has nothing to do with it some of the land was in fact given to the jews by the united nations quite a bit of it was purchased from arab absentee landlords present claims are based on prior ownership purchase from aforementioned absentee landlords award by the united nations in the partition of the palestine mandate territory and as the result of defensive wars fought against the egyptians syrians jordanians et al why do most of them speak of the west bank as theirs while most of the inhabitants are not jews and do not want to be part of israel first i should point out that many jews do not in fact agree with the idea that the west bank is theirs since however i agree with those who claim the west bank i think i can answer your question thusly the west bank was what is called the spoils of war hussein ordered the arab legion to attack israel which was a poor move seeing as how the israelis promptly kicked his butt the territory is therefore forefeit retaining possession of all of the west bank is not desirable but it beats national suicide for the israelis put another way one could ask why it is that so many palestinians seem to think that tel aviv belongs to them and the future state of palestine as long as this state of affairs continues it seems that to give the palestinians a place from which they can launch attacks on jews is a real poor idea giving up the entire west bank would be idiotic froma security standpoint in addition there is the small matter of jerusalem which is considered to be part of the west bank the chances of the israelis giving up jerusalem are nil even leftists who think yasser is a really cool dude like yossi sarid aren t going to propose giving up jerusalem if he did he d get run out of town on a rail chag sameach jeff
talk.politics.mideast	re wtc bombing tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes but hadas might be a fictitious character invented by the two men for billing purposes said mohammed mehdi head of the arab american relations committee tim i would remind readers of the fact that the ny daily news on march th reported the arrest of joise hadas foreign newspapers reported her release shortly afterwards i can provide copies of the articles upon request alaa zeineldine
talk.politics.mideast	armenian genocide of the muslim people in and in article c a mcj news cso uiuc edu ptg uxa cso uiuc edu panos tamamidis writes alah alah kleriklemek mutuglu diyeni de la malakismenos kolo tourkos likkleserfelc ekmek salam toukoutakli ranadas sarma geke re ti eipate yok plaka numarani alalim kanw re source a alper gazigiray osmanlilardan gunumuze kadar vesikalarla ermeni teroru nun kaynaklari gozen kitabevi istanbul pp van dan sonra ilk isyan sebinkarahisar da basladi senesi haziran da sivasli murat hamparsum boyaciyan sa denilen bir caninin emri altinda kadar cete sebinkarahisari basti burasi o zaman en onemli askeri bir yerdi erzurum bolgesinde rus ordusu ile savasan osmanli ordularinin butun ikmal araclari buradan gecmekte idi ermeniler boyle onemli bir yer isgal ettikleri takdirde turk ordularinin ikmali yapilamayacak ve rus ordularinin harekati kolaylasacakti sebinkarahisarin islam mahalleleri tamamen atese verildi her rastlanan turk iskence ile olduruldu mus da ayni sekilde isyan devam ediyordu sason daglari ermeni eskiyalariyla dolu idi bu isyanlari ordunun arkasini vurmak ve rus ordusunun ilerlemesini saglamak icin ermenilerin pasa dedikleri rupen idare ediyordu bundan baska rus ordularinin rus turk sinirindan gecerek turk topraklarina girdikleri bu safhada rus ordusu icinde bulunan ermeni gonullu alaylariyla rus ordularinin isgali altina giren ermeni koylerindeki silahli halk turk koylerine hucum ederek bu koyleri yakip yikmislar ve turk halkini hatira gelmeyen mezalim ve iskence ile oldurmulerdir p bu suretle sehirde gun cok kanli olaylar cereyan etti bu sure sonunda van ermeniler tarafindan tamamen isgal olundu buradan kacabilen turklerin ermenilerin davranislari hakkinda verdikleri haberler tuyler urpertici idi cunku isyancilar halkin cogunu oldurmus kadinlarin irzina gecmis turk kadin ve kizlarini bazi evlerde topladiktan sonra buralarini genelev haline getirmislerdir o zaman van da kadar kadin ve cocuktan baska turk kalmamis bunlari da oradaki amerikalilar korumustur sehir bastan basa harab olmus carsi kamilen yanmisti serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re if you feed armenians dirt you will bite dust in apr urartu sdpa org dbd urartu sdpa org david davidian writes david davidian says turkish officials came to armenia last september and armenia given assurances the armenian nuclear plant would stay shut turkey promised armenia electricity and in the middle of december turkey said sorry we were only joking armenia froze this past winter armenians lost their lives turkey claims it allowed humanitarian aid to enter armenia through its border with turkey what did turkey do it replaced the high quality grain from europe with crap from turkey mixed in dirt and let that garbage through to armenia armenians lost their lives this is the latest from upi foreign ministry spokesman ferhat ataman told journalists turkey was closing its air space to all flights to and from armenia and would prevent humanitarian aid from reaching the republic overland across turkish territory historically even the most uncivilized of peoples have exhibited signs of compassion by allowing humanitarian aid to reach civilian populations even the nazis did this much it seems as though from now on turkey will publicly pronounce themselves hypocrites should they choose to continue their condemnation of the serbians neophytos iacovou university of minnesota email iacovou cs umn edu computer science department rutgers umn cs iacovou
talk.politics.mideast	re israelis murdered in march in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes after a small refresh hasan got on the track again in article flax apr frej teknikum uu se flax frej teknikum uu se jonas flygare writes in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes in article flax apr frej teknikum uu se flax frej teknikum uu se jonas flygare writes i get the impression hasan realized he goofed and is now trying to drop the thread let him it might save some miniscule portion of his sorry face not really since i am a logical person who likes furthering himself from any name calling i started trashing any article that contains such abuses without responding to and sometimes not even reading articles written by those who acquired such bad habits from bad company ah but in my followup on the subject which you by the way never bothered responding to there was no name calling hence the assumption do you feel more up to it now so that we might have an answer or to refresh your memory does the human right issue in the area apply to palestinians only also do you claim there is such a thing as forfeiting a human right if that s possible then explain to the rest of us how there can exist any such thing use your logic and convince us this is your golden chance jonas flygare well ok let s see what master of wisdom mr jonas flygare wrote that can be wisdomely responded to are you calling names or giving me a title if the first read your paragraph above if not i accept the title in order to let you get into the um well debate again master of wisdom writes in mar frej teknikum uu se hasan flax hasan in case you didnot know palestineans were there for months and they are coming back when you agree to give palestineans their human rights afterall human rights arenot negotiable correct me if i m wrong but isn t the right to one s life also a human right or does it only apply to palestinians no it is everybody s right however when a killer kills then he is giving up willingly or unwillingly his life s right to the society the society represented by the goverment would exercise its duty by depriving the killer off his life s right so then it s all right for israel to kill the people who kill israelis the old eye for an eye thinking funny i thought modern legal systems were made to counter exactly that so what do you expect me to tell you to tell you master of wsidom if you insist on giving me names titles i did not ask for you could at least spell them correctly sigh when you are intentionally neglecting the most important fact that the whole israeli presence in the occupied territories is illegitimate and hence all their actions their courts their laws are illegitimate on the ground of occupied territories no i am not neglecting that i m merely asking you whether the existance of israeli citicens in the wb or in gaza invalidates those individuals right to live a as you so eloquently put it human right we can get back to the question of which law should be used in the territories later also you have not adressed my question if the israelis also have human rights what do you expect me to tell you master of wisdom when i did explain my point in the post that you responded to the point is that since israel is occupying then it is automatically depriving itself from some of its rights to the occupied palestineans which is exactly similar the automatic deprivation of a killer from his right of life to the society if a state can deprive all it s citizens of human rights by its actions then tell me why any human living today should have any rights at all in conjugtion with the above when a group of people occupies others territories and rule them by force then this group would be willingly or unwillingly deprived from some of its rights such as the right to live that s nice the swedish government is a group of people that rule me by force does that give me the right to kill them do you consider yourself that you have posed a worthy question here worthy or not i was just applying your logic to a related problem am i to assume you admit it wouldn t hold what kind of rights and how much would be deprived is another issue the answer is to be found in a certain system such as international law us law israeli law and now it s very convenient to start using the legal system to prove a point excuse me while i throw up ok master of wisdom is throwing up you people stay away from the screen while he is doing it oh did you too watch that comedy where they pipe water through the telephone i ll let you in on a secret it s not for real take my word for it it seems that the us law represented by us state dept in this case is looking to the other way around when violence occurs in occupied territories anyway as for hamas then obviously they turned to the islamic system and which system do you propose we use to solve the me problem the question is not which system would solve the me problem why because any system can solve it the laws of minister sharon says kick palestineans out of here all palestine i asked for which system should be used that will preserve human rights for all people involved i assumed that was obvious but i won t repeat that mistake now that i have straightened that out i m eagerly awaiting your reply joseph weitz administrator responsible for jewish colonization said it best when writing in his diary in between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples together in this country we shall not achieve our goal of being an independent people with the arabs in this small country the only solution is a palestine at least western palestine west of the jordan river without arabs and there is no other way than to transfer the arabs from here to the neighbouring countries to transfer all of them not one village not one tribe should be left only after this transfer will the country be able to absorb the millions of our own brethren there is no other way out davar september courtesy of marc afifi just a question if we are to disregard the rather obvious references to getting israel out of me one way or the other in both plo covenant and hamas charter that s the english translations if you have other information i d be interested to have you translate it why should we give any credence to a private paper even older i m not going to get into the question if he wrote the above but it s fairly obvious all parties in the conflict have their share of fanatics guess what those are not the people that will make any lasting peace in the region ever it s those who are willing to make a tabula rasa and start over and willing to give in order to get something back we and our either refers to zionists or jews i donot know which well i can give you an answer you master of wisdom i will not suggest the imperialist israeli system for solving the me problem i think that is fair enough no that is not an answer since i asked for a system that could solve the problem you said any could be used then you provided a contradiction guess where that takes your logic to never never land the greatest problem of zionism is arab children rabbi shoham oh and by the way let me add that these cute quotes you put at the end are a real bummer when i try giving your posts any credit jonas flygare wherever you go there you are v ktargatan f uppsala sweden
talk.politics.mideast	re islam borders was israel misisipi to ganges in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes in article bimacs bitnet ehrlich bimacs bitnet gideon ehrlich writes hassan and some other seemed not to be a ware that jews celebrating on these days thje passover holliday the holidy of going a way from the nile so if one let his imagination freely work it seemed beter to write that the zionist drean is from the misisipi to the nile the question is by going east or west from the misisipi on either choice you would loose palestine or broklyn n y i thought you re gonna say fromn misisipi back to the misisipi nonononnononono its from the nile to the nile the long way
talk.politics.mideast	re islam borders vs israeli borders ilyess bdira writes the islamic world dreams of being the whole planet but not by kicking the current inhabitant out we rather deam of the day everybody converts if jews had the same dream i would not feel threatened a bit so i should be very comfortable that people want to convert me to islam or to convert me to anything there are many types of violence physical murder is only one trying to convert is an insult it s like trying to tell me that me and or my god my lack of god are just crap that i need a new converted one this does not apply for muslims only of course same for jews and for some friendly nicely dressed neighbours who show on sunday with empty speaches and cheap booklets about some church and when the objective is i think however that you are wrong to convert everybody it s just a matter of time when violence will occur aren t we able to learn anything from thouthands of years of conversion related violence why not let the other more inferiour people live as they wish and take care your business you do assume that they are inferiour or their beliefs are as long as you want to change their thinking dorin
talk.politics.mideast	re armenian killings in kelbadjar azerbadjan continues in article apr kth se hilmi er dsv su se hilmi eren writes armenian killings in kelbadjar azerbadjan continues armenian attackers continues it s attack against kelbadjar azerbadjan people have been evacuated from kelbadjar are still in town the fascist x soviet armenian government also hired mercenaries to slaughter azeris this time the armenian government says that the forces aren t from armenia but from nagorno karabag heavy weapons and ordertaking from france is the result turkey s president turgut ozal says if un doesn t act then we may have to show our teeth before the situation becomes worse finally about time serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re while armenians destroyed all the moslem villages in the plain in article pol inna u cascade cs ubc ca kvdoel cs ubc ca kees van den doel writes see you are a pathological liar you got a crack in your record i think this is the point we seem to disagree about not a chance i keep seeing that line over and over that s pathetic even for serdar argic well arromdian of asala sdpa arf terrorism and revisionism triangle is a compulsive liar now try dealing with the rest of what i wrote u s ambassador bristol source u s library of congress bristol papers general correspondence container while the dashnaks were in power they did everything in the world to keep the pot boiling by attacking kurds turks and tartars by committing outrages against the moslems by massacring the moslems and robbing and destroying their homes during the last two years the armenians in russian caucasus have shown no ability to govern themselves and especially no ability to govern or handle other races under their power a kurdish scholar source hassan arfa the kurds london pp when the russian armies invaded turkey after the sarikamish disaster of their columns were preceded by battalions of irregular armenian volunteers both from the caucasus and from turkey one of these was commanded by a certain andranik a blood thirsty adventurer these armenian volunteers committed all kinds of excesses more than six hundred thousand kurds being killed between and in the eastern vilayets of turkey serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re no land for peace no negotiatians in article apr unocal com stssdxb st unocal com dorin baru writes alan stein writes what are you talking about the rabin government has clearly indicated its interest in a territorial compromise that would leave the vast majority of the arabs in judea samaria and gaza outside israeli control just an interrupting comment here since early s israelis said they are willing to give up the adminstration rule of the occupied terretories to palestineans palestineans refused and will refuse such settlement that denies them their right of self determination period i know i was just pointing out that not compromising may be a bad idea and there are in israel voices against negotiations and i think there are many among palestineans also against any negociations just an opinion dorin ok i donot know why there are israeli voices against negotiations however i would guess that is because they refuse giving back a land for those who have the right for it as for the arabian and palestinean voices that are against the current negotiations and the so called peace process they are not against peace per se but rather for their well founded predictions that israel would not give an inch of the west bank and most probably the same for golan heights back to the arabs an months of negotiations in madrid and washington proved these predictions now many will jump on me saying why are you blaming israelis for no result negotiations i would say why would the arabs stall the negotiations what do they have to loose arabs feel that the current negotiations is only for legitimizing the current status quo and for opening the doors of the arab markets for israeli trade and oranges that is simply unacceptable and would be revoked just an opinion hasan
talk.politics.mideast	re the systematic genocide of the muslim population by the armenians in article apr massey ac nz cblack massey ac nz c k black writes mr furr does it again very sensible he says how many mutlus can dance on the head of a pin and lo and behold he invokes the mr of the net himself our beloved serdar a program designed to seek out the words terrx and ghex in the same sentence and gets the automated reply must you rave so fascist x soviet armenian government engaged in disgusting cowardly massacres of azeri women and children i am really sorry if that fact bothers you our mutlu oboy this is exciting first you discuss your literature tastes then your fantasies and now your choices of entertainment have you considered just turning on the tv and leaving those of us who aren t brain dead to continue to discuss the genocide of million muslim people by the x soviet armenian government etc etc etc more ridicule i take it still not addressing the original points made joel don t do this to me mate i m only a poor plant scientist i don t know how to make kill files my k key works overtime as it is just to then what seems to be the problem did you ever read newspaper at all painful search the gruesome extent of february s killings of azeris by armenians in the town of hojali is at last emerging in azerbaijan about men women and children dead in the worst outrage of the four year war over nagorny karabakh the figure is drawn from azeri investigators hojali officials and casualty lists published in the baku press diplomats and aid workers say the death toll is in line with their own estimates the february attack on hojali by armenian forces was one of the last moves in their four year campaign to take full control of nagorny karabakh the subject of a new round of negotiations in rome on monday the bloodshed was something between a fighting retreat and a massacre but investigators say that most of the dead were civilians the awful number of people killed was first suppressed by the fearful former communist government in baku later it was blurred by armenian denials and grief stricken azerbaijan s wild and contradictory allegations of up to dead the state prosecuter aydin rasulov the cheif investigator of a man team looking into what azerbaijan calls the hojali disaster said his figure of people dead was a minimum on preliminary findings a similar estimate was given by elman memmedov the mayor of hojali an even higher one was printed in the baku newspaper ordu in may dead people named and more than bodies reported unidentified this figure of nearly dead is quoted as official by leila yunusova the new spokeswoman of the azeri ministry of defence francois zen ruffinen head of delegation of the international red cross in baku said the muslim imam of the nearby city of agdam had reported a figure of bodies received at his mosque from hojali most of them civilians we did not count the bodies but the figure seems reasonable it is no fantasy mr zen ruffinen said we have some idea since we gave the body bags and products to wash the dead mr rasulov endeavours to give an unemotional estimate of the number of dead in the massacre don t get worked up it will take several months to get a final figure the year old lawyer said at his small office mr rasulov knows about these things it took him two years to reach a firm conclusion that people were killed and wounded when soviet troops and tanks crushed a nationalist uprising in baku in january those nationalists the popular front finally came to power three weeks ago and are applying pressure to find out exactly what happened when hojali an azeri town which lies about miles from the border with armenia fell to the armenians officially people have so far been certified as dead being the number of people that could be medically examined by the republic s forensic department this is just a small percentage of the dead said rafiq youssifov the republic s chief forensic scientist they were the only bodies brought to us remember the chaos and the fact that we are muslims and have to wash and bury our dead within hours of these people were women and were children under years old gunshots killed people shrapnel killed and axes or blunt instruments killed exposure in the highland snows killed the last three thirty three people showed signs of deliberate mutilation including ears noses breasts or penises cut off and eyes gouged out according to professor youssifov s report those bodies examined were less than a third of those believed to have been killed mr rasulov said files from mr rasulov s investigative commission are still disorganised lists of azeri militiamen are dead here six policemen there and in handwriting of a mosque attendant the names of corpses brought to be washed in just one day the most heartbreaking account from witnesses interviewed so far comes from towfiq manafov an azeri investigator who took a helicopter flight over the escape route from hojali on february there were too many bodies of dead and wounded on the ground to count properly in hojali people by the stream and the road and visible around nakhchivanik village mr manafov wrote in a statement countersigned by the helicopter pilot people waved up to us for help we saw three dead children and one two year old alive by one dead woman the live one was pulling at her arm for the mother to get up we tried to land but armenians started a barrage against our helicopter and we had to return there has been no consolidation of the lists and figures in circulation because of the political upheavals of the last few months and the fact that nobody knows exactly who was in hojali at the time many inhabitants were displaced from other villages taken over by armenian forces the independent london heroes who fought on amid the bodies aref sadikov sat quietly in the shade of a cafe bar on the caspian sea esplanade of baku and showed a line of stitches in his trousers torn by an armenian bullet as he fled the town of hojali just over three months ago writes hugh pope i m still wearing the same clothes i don t have any others the year old carpenter said beginning his account of the hojali disaster i was wounded in five places but i am lucky to be alive mr sadikov and his wife were short of food without electricity for more than a month and cut off from helicopter flights for days they sensed the armenian noose was tightening around the to people left in the straggling azeri town on the edge of karabakh at about pm a bombardment started such as we had never heard before eight or nine kinds of weapons artillery heavy machine guns the lot mr sadikov said soon neighbours were pouring down the street from the direction of the attack some huddled in shelters but others started fleeing the town down a hill through a stream and through the snow into a forest on the other side to escape the townspeople had to reach the azeri town of agdam about miles away they thought they were going to make it until at about dawn they reached a bottleneck between the two armenian villages of nakhchivanik and saderak none of my group was hurt up to then then we were spotted by a car on the road and the armenian outposts started opening fire mr sadikov said azeri militiamen fighting their way out of hojali rushed forward to force open a corridor for the civilians but their efforts were mostly in vain mr sadikov said only people from his group of made it through including his wife and militiaman son seven of his immediate relations died including his year old elder brother i only had time to reach down and cover his face with his hat he said pulling his own big flat turkish cap over his eyes we have never got any of the bodies back the first groups were lucky to have the benefit of covering fire one hero of the evacuation alif hajief was shot dead as he struggled to change a magazine while covering the third group s crossing mr sadikov said another hero elman memmedov the mayor of hojali said he and several others spent the whole day of february in the bushy hillside surrounded by dead bodies as they tried to keep three armenian armoured personnel carriers at bay as the survivors staggered the last mile into agdam there was little comfort in a town from which most of the population was soon to flee the night after we reached the town there was a big armenian rocket attack some people just kept going mr sadikov said i had to get to the hospital for treatment i was in a bad way they even found a bullet in my sock victims of war an azeri woman mourns her son killed in the hojali massacre in february left nurses struggle in primitive conditions centre to save a wounded man in a makeshift operating theatre set up in a train carriage grief stricken relatives in the town of agdam right weep over the coffin of another of the massacre victims calculating the final death toll has been complicated because muslims bury their dead within hours photographs liu heung ap frederique lengaigne reuter the independent london serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re the systematic genocide of the muslim population by the armenians in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu jfurr nyx cs du edu joel furr writes i dunno warren just the other day i heard a rumor that serdar argic aka hasan mutlu and ahmed cosar and zumabot is not really a turk at all but in fact is an armenian th or th i must congratulate your analytical and excellent reportage about diana from the writings of tye biographers you quoted i can perceive maybe chauvinistically the remnants of her armenian genes even though she is only th armenian she seems to have many of the strong characteristics of armenian women her armenian ancestry is traced to eliza kewark an armenian from india who married the scottish merchant thedore forbes from the union was born kathleen scott forbes who married james crombie from aberdeen they had a daughter jane who married david littlejohn their daughter ruth married william gill ruth silvia gill the grandmother of lady diana married lord fermoy and their daughter frances ruth burke roache married the eight earl of spencer who was the father of lady diana it is noteworthy that eliza kewark was also referred to as mrs forbesian a characteristic armenian surname ending an armenian scottish gene mix is dynamite levon k topuzian assistant professor northwestern university skoie illinois time december letters who is attempting to make any discussion of the massacres in armenia of turks so noise laden as to make serious discussion impossible thereby cloaking the historical record with a tremendous cloud of confusion you have set up straw horses and knocked them down i m not impressed anyway the armenians tore apart the ottoman empire s eastern provinces massacred million defenseless turkish women children and elderly people burned thousands of turkish and kurdish villages and exterminated the entire turkish population of the armenian dictatorship between such outrageous sleight of hand that is still employed today in armenia brings a depth and verification to the turkish genocide that is hard to match a hundred years ago armenians again thought they could get whatever they wanted through sheer terror like the russian anarchists that they accepted as role models several armenian terror groups like asala sdpa arf terrorism and revisionism triangle resorted to the same tactics in the s butchering scores of innocent turks and their families in the united states and europe it seems that they are doing it again at a different scale in fascist x soviet armenia today source stanford j shaw on armenian collaboration with invading russian armies in history of the ottoman empire and modern turkey volume ii reform revolution republic the rise of modern turkey london cambridge university press pp in april dashnaks from russian armenia organized a revolt in the city of van whose armenians comprised percent of the population closest to an armenian majority of any city in the empire leaving erivan on april armenian volunteers reached van on may and organized and carried out a general slaughter of the local muslim population during the next two days while the small ottoman garrison had to retreat to the southern side of the lake knowing their numbers would never justify their territorial ambitions armenians looked to russia and europe for the fulfillment of their aims armenian treachery in this regard culminated at the beginning of the first world war with the decision of the revolutionary organizations to refuse to serve their state the ottoman empire and to assist instead other invading russian armies their hope was their participation in the russian success would be rewarded with an independent armenian state carved out of ottoman territories armenian political leaders army officers and common soldiers began deserting in droves with the russian invasion of eastern anatolia in at the beginning of world war i the degree of armenian collaboration with the ottoman s enemy increased drastically ottoman supply lines were cut by guerilla attacks armenian revolutionaries armed armenian civil populations who in turn massacred the muslim population of the province of van in anticipation of expected arrival of the invading russian armies serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	while armenians destroyed all the villages from trabzon to erzurum in article apr ns cc lehigh edu pv ns cc lehigh edu peter vorobieff writes disclaimer if there is anybody on usenet dumb enough to interpret this posting as a serious and meaningful one i want to assure this entity that it was but a joke still yelling at the telephone and the lawn mower people will think you re just some looney howling in the wires now any comment source documents volume i document no archive no cabin no drawer no file no section no contents no to lt colonel seyfi general headquarters second section istanbul dr stephan eshnanie neues wiener tagblatt vienna pester lloyd local anzliger berlin algemeen handelsblat amsterdam vakit istanbul i have been closely following for two weeks the withdrawal of russians and armenians from turkish territories through armenia although two months have elapsed since the clearing of the territories of armenian gangs i have been observing the evidence of the cruelties of the armenians at almost every step all the villages from trabzon to erzincan and from erzincan to erzurum are destroyed corpses of turks brutally and cruelly slain are everywhere according to accounts by those who were able to save their lives by escaping to mountains the first horrible and fearful events begun when the russian forces evacuated the places which were then taken over by armenian gangs the russians usually treated the people well but the people feared the intervention of the armenians once these places had been taken over by the armenians however the massacres begun they clearly announced their intention of clearing what they called the armenian and kurdish land from the turks and thus solve the nationality problem today i had the opportunity to meet austrian and german soldiers who had escaped from russian prison camps and come from kars and alexander paul gumru leninakan russian officers tried to save the turks and there were clashes between russian officers and armenian gangs i am now in erzurum and what i see is terrible almost the whole city is destroyed the smell of the corpses still fills the air although there are speculations that armenian gangs murdered austrian and german prisoners as well i could not get the supporting evidence in this regard but there is proof of murdering of turkish prisoners of war dr stephan eshnanie serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re life and fall of wlodowa do not forget in article apr oneb almanac bc ca kmcvay oneb almanac bc ca ken mcvay writes remember and do not forget sisha fuchs never i don t know whether anybody formulated and proposed such an index or criteria to determine the magnitude of a genocide as mentioned and advised by toynbee if one ever does you will easily see the magnitude of the crime of genocide committed by the armenians by massacring an alien population under their rule which constituted about of their total population and they did it only within a time period of a little over two years in which they enjoyed having full control over this population now i would like to ask you is there any other genocide in the history of mankind similar to this one and again i would like to ask you whether the silent and unmourned martyrdom of these hundreds of thousands of turks of the republic of armenia who were exterminated as a final solution to turco tartar problems in armenia is similar or not to the martyrdom of six million jews in europe as a final solution to jewish problems serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re no land for peace no negotiatians hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes ok i donot know why there are israeli voices against negotiations however i would guess that is because they refuse giving back a land for those who have the right for it sounds like wishful guessing as for the arabian and palestinean voices that are against the current negotiations and the so called peace process they are not against peace per se but rather for their well founded predictions that israel would not give an inch of the west bank and most probably the same for golan heights back to the arabs an months of negotiations in madrid and washington proved these predictions now many will jump on me saying why are you blaming israelis for no result negotiations i would say why would the arabs stall the negotiations what do they have to loose so called what do you mean how would you see the peace process so you say palestineans do not negociate because of well founded predictions how do you know that they are well founded if you do not test them at the table months did not prove anything but it s always the other side at fault right why i do not know why but if let s say the palestineans some of them want all israel and these are known not to be accepted terms by israelis or maybe they palestinenans are not yet ready for statehood or maybe there is too much politics within the palestinean leadership too many fractions aso i am not saying that one of these reasons is indeed the real one but any of these could make arabs stall the negotiations arabs feel that the current negotiations is only for legitimizing the current status quo and for opening the doors of the arab markets for israeli trade and oranges that is simply unacceptable and would be revoked i like california oranges and the feelings may get sharper at the table regards dorin
talk.politics.mideast	re israelis murdered in march in article flax apr frej teknikum uu se flax frej teknikum uu se jonas flygare writes in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes in article flax apr frej teknikum uu se flax frej teknikum uu se jonas flygare writes in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes in article flax apr frej teknikum uu se flax frej teknikum uu se jonas flygare writes i get the impression hasan realized he goofed and is now trying to drop the thread let him it might save some miniscule portion of his sorry face not really since i am a logical person who likes furthering himself from any name calling i started trashing any article that contains such abuses without responding to and sometimes not even reading articles written by those who acquired such bad habits from bad company deleted stuff well ok let s see what master of wisdom mr jonas flygare wrote that can be wisdomely responded to are you calling names or giving me a title if the first read your paragraph above if not i accept the title in order to let you get into the um well debate again i didnot know that master of wisdom can be name clling too unless you consider yourself deserve less master of wisdom writes in mar frej teknikum uu se hasan flax hasan in case you didnot know palestineans were there for months and they are coming back when you agree to give palestineans their human rights afterall human rights arenot negotiable correct me if i m wrong but isn t the right to one s life also a human right or does it only apply to palestinians no it is everybody s right however when a killer kills then he is giving up willingly or unwillingly his life s right to the society the society represented by the goverment would exercise its duty by depriving the killer off his life s right so then it s all right for israel to kill the people who kill israelis the old eye for an eye thinking funny i thought modern legal systems were made to counter exactly that so what do you expect me to tell you to tell you master of wsidom if you insist on giving me names titles i did not ask for you could at least spell them correctly sigh that was only to confuse you ha ha ha hey when you are intentionally neglecting the most important fact that the whole israeli presence in the occupied territories is illegitimate and hence all their actions their courts their laws are illegitimate on the ground of occupied territories no i am not neglecting that i m merely asking you whether the existance of israeli citicens in the wb or in gaza invalidates those individuals right are you trying to retaliate and confuse me here to live a as you so eloquently put it human right we can get back to the question of which law should be used in the territories later also you have not adressed my question if the israelis also have human rights first my above statement doesnot say that the existence of israeli citizens in the wb revoke their right of life but it says the israeli occupation of the wb revoke the right of life for some most its citizens basically revokes the right of for its military men clearly occupation is an undeclared war during war attacks against military targets are fully legitimate secondly surely israeli have human rights but they ask their goverment to protect it by withdrawing from the occupied terretories not by further oppressing palestinean human rights what do you expect me to tell you master of wisdom when i did explain my point in the post that you responded to the point is that since israel is occupying then it is automatically depriving itself from some of its rights to the occupied palestineans which is exactly similar the automatic deprivation of a killer from his right of life to the society if a state can deprive all it s citizens of human rights by its actions then tell me why any human living today should have any rights at all because not all states are like israel as oppressive as ignorant or as tyrant what kind of rights and how much would be deprived is another issue the answer is to be found in a certain system such as international law us law israeli law deleted jonas was throwing up not for real so you can stick to the screen it seems that the us law represented by us state dept in this case is looking to the other way around when violence occurs in occupied territories anyway as for hamas then obviously they turned to the islamic system and which system do you propose we use to solve the me problem the question is not which system would solve the me problem why because any system can solve it the laws of minister sharon says kick palestineans out of here all palestine i asked for which system should be used that will preserve human rights for all people involved i assumed that was obvious but i won t repeat that mistake now that i have straightened that out i m eagerly awaiting your reply so you agree that that an israeli solution wouldnot preserve human rights i am understanding this from your first statement in this paragraph joseph weitz administrator responsible for jewish colonization said it best when writing in his diary in between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples together in this country we shall not achieve our goal of being an independent people with the arabs in this small country the only solution is a palestine at least western palestine west of the jordan river without arabs and there is no other way than to transfer the arabs from here to the neighbouring countries to transfer all of them not one village not one tribe should be left only after this transfer will the country be able to absorb the millions of our own brethren there is no other way out davar september courtesy of marc afifi just a question if we are to disregard the rather obvious references to getting israel out of me one way or the other in both plo covenant and hamas charter that s the english translations if you have other information i d be interested to have you translate it why should we give any credence to a private paper even older i m not going to get into the question if he wrote the above but it s fairly obvious all parties in the conflict have their share of fanatics guess what those are not the people that will make any lasting peace in the region more deleted stuff exactly you are right i guess that the problem is that the israeli goverment is full with men like joseph weitz we and our either refers to zionists or jews i donot know which well i can give you an answer you master of wisdom i will not suggest the imperialist israeli system for solving the me problem i think that is fair enough no that is not an answer since i asked for a system that could solve the problem you said any could be used then you provided a contradiction above you wrote that you understood what i meant underlined by any system can be used to solve the conflict but not any system would resolve it justly guess where that takes your logic to never never land you are proving yourself as a first you understood what i meant but then you claim you didnot so to claim a contradiction in my logic too bad for you the master of wisdom the greatest problem of zionism is arab children rabbi shoham oh and by the way let me add that these cute quotes you put at the end are a real bummer when i try giving your posts any credit why do you feel ashamed by things and facts that you believe in if you were a zionists if you believe in zionist codes and acts well i feel sorry for you because the same rabbi shoham had said yes zionism is racism if you feel ashamed and bothered by the zionist codes then drop zionism if you are not zionist why are you bothered then you should join me in condemning these racist zionist codes and acts hasan jonas flygare
talk.politics.mideast	armenian nazi collaboration during world war ii in article bc d b news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes is it possible to track down zuma and determine who what where seradr is done but did it change the fact that during the period of to the armenian government ordered incited assisted and participated in the genocide of million muslim people because of race religion and national origin by the way you still haven t corrected yourself during world war ii armenians were carried away with the german might and cringing and fawning over the nazis in that zeal the armenian publication in germany hairenik carried statements as follows sometimes it is difficult to eradicate these poisonous elements the jews when they have struck deep root like a chronic disease and when it becomes necessary for a people the nazis to eradicate them in an uncommon method these attempts are regarded as revolutionary during the surgical operation the flow of blood is a natural thing now for a brief view of the armenian genocide of the muslims and jews extracts from a letter dated december published in the san francisco chronicle as an answer to a letter that had been published in the same journal under the signature of one b amarian we have first hand information and evidence of armenian atrocities against our people jews members of our family witnessed the murder of members of our family near erzurum turkey by armenian neighbors bent on destroying anything and anybody remotely jewish and or muslim armenians should look to their own history and see the havoc they and their ancestors perpetrated upon their neighbors armenians were in league with hitler in the last war on his premise to grant them self government if in return the armenians would help exterminate jews armenians were also hearty proponents of the anti semitic acts in league with the russian communists mr amarian i don t need your bias signed elihu ben levi vacaville california james g mandalian dro drastamat kanayan in the armenian review a quarterly by the hairenik association inc summer june vol x no serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re while armenians are massacring innocent azeri women and children in article iacovou gurney iacovou gurney cs umn edu neophytos iacovou writes historically even the most uncivilized of peoples have exhibited signs of compassion by allowing humanitarian aid to reach civilian populations even the nazis did this much is the world community really so powerless where are all those human rights advocates where are all the decent people are we going to let this human tragedy go on and do nothing about it the number of azeris murdered by the terrorist armenian army and its savage gangs is increasing news reporters make their living by providing stories and there is so way in hell that they are going to confuse the public with what is happening in armenia a country that few know of and risk detracting people s interest from what is happening in serbia then you must be living in an alternate universe where were they an appeal to mankind during the last three years azerbaijan and its multinational population are vainly fighting for justice within the limits of the soviet union all humanitarian constitutional human rights guaranteed by the un charter universal declaration of human rights helsinki agreements human problems international forums documents signed by the soviet union all of them are violated the ussr s president government bodies do not defend azerbaijan though they are all empowered to take necessary measures to guarantee life and peace the strong army of armenian terrorists with moscow s tacit consent wages an undeclared war of annihilation against azerbaijan as a result a part of azerbaijan has been occupied and annexed hundreds of people killed thousands wounded some azerbaijanis have been brutally and inhumanly deported from the armenian ssr their historical homeland together with them russians and kurds have also been driven out a part of them now settled in azerbaijan some turkish meskhetians lezghins and representatives of other caucasian nationalities who escaped from the central asia where the president and government bodies did not guarantee them the life and peace also suffered from these deportations one of the scandalous vandalisms directed not only against azerbaijan science but the world civilization as well is the armenian extremists destruction of the karabakh scientific experimental base of the institute of genetics and selection of the academy of sciences of the azerbaijan ssr we beg you for humanitarian help and political assistance for the honour and dignity of million azerbaijanis are violated its territory culture and history are trampled its people are shot there is persistent negative image of azerbaijanians abroad and this defamation is spread over the whole world by soviet mass media armenian lobby in the ussr and the united states one of the myths is that all events allegedly involves and generated by interethnic collisions and religious intolerance while the truth is that all these shootings and recent events stem from the territorial claims of armenia on azerbaijan it is a well documented fact that before the conflict there were no frictions between armenians and azerbaijanis on the issue of karabakh hundreds and thousands armenians placidly and calmly lived and worked in azerbaijan land had their representatives in all government bodies of the azerbaijan ssr we are for a united indivisible sovereign azerbaijan we are for a common caucasian home proclaimed in by one of the founding fathers of the azerbaijan democratic republic muhammed emin rasulzade but all these goals and expectations are trampled upon the soviet leadership in favour of the armenian expansionists encouraged by moscow and intended to create a new year reich the great armenia by annexing the neighboring lands the world public opinion shed tears to save the whales suffers for penguins dying out in the antarctic continent but what about the lives of seven million human beings if these people are muslims does it mean that they are less valuable can people be discriminated by their colour of skin or religion by their residence or other attributes all people are brothers and we appeal to our brothers for help and understanding this is not the first appeal of azerbaijan to the world public opinion our previous appeals were unheard however we still carry the hope that the truth beyond the russian and armenian propaganda will one day reveal the extent of our suffering and stimulate at least as much help and compassion for azerbaijan as tendered to whales and penguins the committee for people s help to karabakh of the academy of sciences of the azerbaijan ssr everyone knows this even the turks know this you know this give us a time period when the world is currently boring and what is happening in armenia would make front page headlines think i m lying take a look at what happened in somalia when did the press report it to the world but perhaps turkiye should intervene in the affairs of the caucasus in the name of peace and democracy the armenians are christians the azerbaijanis are moslems and islam is a religion especially unloved by the democrat westernizers besides at the root of this conflict lie the territorial claims on azerbaijan a consequence of which were the blood and suffering of innocent azeri people hundreds of thousands of refugees and gross violations of human rights recently armenians attacked the azeri town of khojaly and massacred thousands of azeris the paris based association for democracy and human rights in azerbaijan puts the number of khojali victims at some of the dead were scalped and mutilated this whole thing has now gone entirely too far want to know what will bring the story in armenia to the front page if the russians move into the area with a shit load of tanks then your human rights advocates will show up defending the armenians of course we can also be sure that the russians won t show up with any tanks not with the problems they are having at home they already did the scenario and genocide staged by the armenians years ago in the ottoman empire is being reenacted again this time in azerbaijan there are remarkable similarities between the plots the perpetrators and the underdogs report taken from the new york times tuesday march massacre by armenians being reported agdam azerbaijan march reuters fresh evidence emerged today of a massacre of civilians by armenian militants in nagorno karabakh a predominantly armenian enclave of azerbaijan the republic of armenia reiterated denials that its militants had killed people in the azerbaijani populated town of khojaly last week and massacred men women and children fleeing the carnage across snow covered mountain passes but dozen of bodies scattered over the area lent credence to azerbaijani reports of a massacre scalping reported azerbaijani officials and journalists who flew briefly to the region by helicopter brought back three dead children with the back of their heads blown off they said shooting by armenians has prevented them from retrieving more bodies women and children have been scalped said assad faradshev an aide to nagorno karabakh s azerbaijani governor when we began to pick up bodies they began firing at us the azerbaijani militia chief in agdam rashid mamedov said the bodies are lying there like flocks of sheep even the fascists did nothing like this truckloads of bodies near agdam on the outskirts of nagorno karabakh a reuters photographer frederique lengaigne said she had seen two trucks filled with azerbaijani bodies in the first one i counted and it looked as though there were as many in the second she said some had their head cut off and many had been burned they were all men and a few had been wearing khaki uniforms serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re islam borders vs israeli borders in article apr wam umd edu spinoza next wor wam umd edu yon bonnie laird of cairn robbing writes in article c wjj j r newsflash concordia ca ilyess ece concordia ca ilyess bdira writes why do jews who don t even believe in god as is the case with many of the founders of secular zionism have a right in palestine more than the inhabitants of palestine just because god gave you the land g d has nothing to do with it some of the land was in fact given to the jews by the united nations quite a bit of it was purchased from arab absentee landlords present claims are based on prior ownership purchase from aforementioned absentee landlords award by the united nations in the partition of the palestine mandate territory and as the result of defensive wars fought against the egyptians syrians jordanians et al why do most of them speak of the west bank as theirs while most of the inhabitants are not jews and do not want to be part of israel first i should point out that many jews do not in fact agree with the idea that the west bank is theirs since however i agree with those who claim the west bank i think i can answer your question thusly the west bank was what is called the spoils of war hussein ordered the arab legion this is very funny anyway suppose that in fact israel didnot attack jordan till jordan attacked israel now how do you explain the attack on syria in syria didnot enter the war with israel till the th day by the way it is funny that you are implying that the reason behind by israel was only to capture sinai egypt to attack israel which was a poor move seeing as how the israelis promptly kicked his butt the territory is therefore forefeit retaining possession of all of the west bank is not desirable but it beats national suicide for the israelis put another way one could ask why it is that so many palestinians seem to think that tel aviv belongs to them and the future state of palestine as long as this state of affairs continues it seems that to give the palestinians a place from which they can launch attacks on jews is a real poor idea giving up the entire west bank would be idiotic froma security standpoint in addition there is the small matter of jerusalem which is considered to be part of the west bank the chances of the israelis giving up jerusalem are nil even leftists who think yasser is a really cool dude like yossi sarid aren t going to propose giving up jerusalem if he did he d get run out of town on a rail chag sameach jeff
talk.politics.mideast	re f ck off tsiel logic of mr emmanuel huna in article bimacs bitnet huna bimacs bitnet emmanuel huna writes mr steel from what i ve read tsiel is not a racist but you are an anti semitic and stop shouting you fanatic mr emmanuel huna give logic a break will you gosh what kind of intelligence do you have if any tesiel says be a man not an arab for once i say fuck of tsiel for saying the above i get tagged as a racist and he gets praised well mr logicless tsiel has apologized for his racist remark i praise him for that courage but i tell take a hike to whoever calls me a racist without a proof because i am not you have proven to us that your brain has been malfunctioning and you are just a moron that s loose on the net about being fanatic i am proud to be a fanatic about my rights and freedom you idiot
talk.politics.mideast	re islam borders vs israeli borders tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes i too strongly object to those that justify israeli rule of those who do not want that the occupied territories are not israel s to control to keep or to dominate they certainly are until the arabs make peace only the most leftist arabist lunatics call upon israel to withdraw now most moderates realize that an israeli withdrawl will be based on the camp david madrid formulas which make full peace a prerequisite to territorial concessions tim ed
talk.politics.mideast	re islam borders vs israeli borders hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes in article apr wam umd edu spinoza next wor wam umd edu yon bonnie laird of cairn robbing writes in article c wjj j r newsflash concordia ca ilyess ece concordia ca ilyess bdira writes why do jews who don t even believe in god as is the case with many of the founders of secular zionism have a right in palestine more than the inhabitants of palestine just because god gave you the land g d has nothing to do with it some of the land was in fact given to the jews by the united nations quite a bit of it was purchased from arab absentee landlords present claims are based on prior ownership purchase from aforementioned absentee landlords award by the united nations in the partition of the palestine mandate territory and as the result of defensive wars fought against the egyptians syrians jordanians et al why do most of them speak of the west bank as theirs while most of the inhabitants are not jews and do not want to be part of israel first i should point out that many jews do not in fact agree with the idea that the west bank is theirs since however i agree with those who claim the west bank i think i can answer your question thusly the west bank was what is called the spoils of war hussein ordered the arab legion this is very funny anyway suppose that in fact israel didnot attack jordan till jordan attacked israel now how do you explain the attack on syria in syria didnot enter the war with israel till the th day syria had been bombing israeli settlements from the golan and sending terrorist squads into israel for years do you need me to provide specifics i can why don t you give it up hasan i m really starting to get tired of your empty lies you can defend your position and ideology with documented facts and arguments rather than the crap you regularly post take an example from someone like brendan mckay with whom i don t agree but who uses logic and documentation to argue his position why must you insist on constantly spouting baseless lies you may piss some people off but that s about it you won t prove anything or add anything worthy to a discussion your arguments just prove what a poor debater you are and how weak your case really is all my love ed
talk.politics.mideast	re israelis murdered in march in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes stuff deleted i wrote are you calling names or giving me a title if the first read your paragraph above if not i accept the title in order to let you get into the um well debate again hasan replies i didnot know that master of wisdom can be name clling too unless you consider yourself deserve less unless you are referring to someone else you have in fact given me a name i did not ask for hence the term name calling hasan writes so what do you expect me to tell you to tell you master of wsidom i replied if you insist on giving me names titles i did not ask for you could at least spell them correctly sigh hasan gloats that was only to confuse you ha ha ha hey hell bent on retarding into childhood no when you are intentionally neglecting the most important fact that the whole israeli presence in the occupied territories is illegitimate and hence all their actions their courts their laws are illegitimate on the ground of occupied territories no i am not neglecting that i m merely asking you whether the existance of israeli citicens in the wb or in gaza invalidates those individuals right are you trying to retaliate and confuse me here no i really do try to spell correctly and i apologize if i did confuse you i will try not to repeat that to live a as you so eloquently put it human right we can get back to the question of which law should be used in the territories later also you have not adressed my question if the israelis also have human rights first my above statement doesnot say that the existence of israeli citizens in the wb revoke their right of life but it says the israeli occupation of the wb revoke the right of life for some most its citizens basically revokes the right of for its military men clearly occupation is an undeclared war during war attacks against military targets are fully legitimate ok let me re phrase the question i have repeatedly asked you if the israelis have less human rights than the palestinians and if so why from your posting where you did not directly adress my question i inferred that you thought so together with the above statement i then assumed that the reason was the actions of the state of israel re your statement of occupation i d like you to define the term so i don t have to repeat this drag the answer out of hasan procedure more than neccesary secondly surely israeli have human rights but they ask their goverment to protect it by withdrawing from the occupied terretories not by further oppressing palestinean human rights i m sorry but the above sentence does not make sense please rephrase it if a state can deprive all it s citizens of human rights by its actions then tell me why any human living today should have any rights at all because not all states are like israel as oppressive as ignorant or as tyrant oh ok so how about the human rights of the syrians iraqis and others does the name of hama sound familiar or how about the kurds in iraq and turkey how about the same in sweden ok maybe a bit farfetched the russians in the baltic states or the moslem in the old ussr and yugoslavia do the serbs have any human rights remainaing according to you and which system do you propose we use to solve the me problem the question is not which system would solve the me problem why because any system can solve it the laws of minister sharon says kick palestineans out of here all palestine i asked for which system should be used that will preserve human rights for all people involved i assumed that was obvious but i won t repeat that mistake now that i have straightened that out i m eagerly awaiting your reply so you agree that that an israeli solution wouldnot preserve human rights i am understanding this from your first statement in this paragraph no i m agreeing that to just kick all the palestinians out of israel proper would probably lead to disaster for both parties if that s what you refer to as the israeli solution then so be it joseph weitz administrator responsible for jewish colonization said it best when writing in his diary in between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples together in this country we shall not achieve our goal of being an independent people with the arabs in this small country the only solution is a palestine at least western palestine west of the jordan river without arabs and there is no other way than to transfer the arabs from here to the neighbouring countries to transfer all of them not one village not one tribe should be left only after this transfer will the country be able to absorb the millions of our own brethren there is no other way out davar september courtesy of marc afifi just a question if we are to disregard the rather obvious references to getting israel out of me one way or the other in both plo covenant and hamas charter that s the english translations if you have other information i d be interested to have you translate it why should we give any credence to a private paper even older i m not going to get into the question if he wrote the above but it s fairly obvious all parties in the conflict have their share of fanatics guess what those are not the people that will make any lasting peace in the region more deleted stuff exactly you are right i guess that the problem is that the israeli goverment is full with men like joseph weitz oh have you met with them personally to read their diaries fascinating what do you do for a living we and our either refers to zionists or jews i donot know which well i can give you an answer you master of wisdom i will not suggest the imperialist israeli system for solving the me problem i think that is fair enough no that is not an answer since i asked for a system that could solve the problem you said any could be used then you provided a contradiction above you wrote that you understood what i meant underlined by any system can be used to solve the conflict but not any system would resolve it justly an unjust solution would be a non solution per definition no you said the following for all a it holds that a have property b there exists an a such that property b does not hold thus either or both statements must be false guess where that takes your logic to never never land you are proving yourself as a first you understood what i meant but then you claim you didnot so to claim a contradiction in my logic too bad for you the master of wisdom i was merely pointing out a not so small flaw in your reasoning since you claim to be logical i felt it best to point this out before you started using your statements to prove a point or so am i then to assume you are not logical the greatest problem of zionism is arab children rabbi shoham oh and by the way let me add that these cute quotes you put at the end are a real bummer when i try giving your posts any credit why do you feel ashamed by things and facts that you believe in if you were a zionists if you believe in zionist codes and acts well i feel sorry for you because the same rabbi shoham had said yes zionism is racism if you feel ashamed and bothered by the zionist codes then drop zionism if you are not zionist why are you bothered then you should join me in condemning these racist zionist codes and acts any quote can be misused especially when used to stereotype all individuals by a statement of an individual if you use the same methods that you credit zionists with then where does that place you oh by the way i d advice you not to assume anything about my loyalties i will and am condemning acts i find vile and inhuman but i ll try as long as i can not to assume those acts are by a whole people by zionist above do you mean the state of israel the government of israel the leaders of israel political and or religious or the jews in general if you feel the need to condemn condemn those responsible instead how would you feel if we started condemning you personally based on the bombings in egypt jonas flygare wherever you go there you are v ktargatan f uppsala sweden
talk.politics.mideast	the orders for the turkish extermination of the armenians the orders for the turkish extermination of the armenians to the children of genocide send them away into the desert this is part of a continuing series of articles containing official turkish wartime ww governmental telegrams in translation entailing the orders for the extermination of the armenian people in turkey generally these telegrams were issued by the turkish minister of the interior talaat pasha for example we have the following set regarding children to the government of aleppo november we are informed that the little ones belonging to the armenians from sivas mamuret ul aziz diarbekir and erzeroum hundreds of km distance from aleppo are adopted by certain moslem families and received as servants when they are left alone through the death of their parents we inform you that you are to collect all such children in your province and send them to the places of deportation and also to give the necessary orders regarding this to the people minister of the interior talaat to the government of aleppo september there is no need for an orphanage it is not the time to give way to sentiment and feed the orphans prolonging their lives send them away to the desert and inform us minister of the interior talaat to the general committee for settling and deportees november there were more than four hundred children in the orphanage they will be added to the caravans and sent to their places of exile abdullahad nuri to the government of aleppo january we hear that certain orphanages which have been opened receive also the children of the armenians whether this is done through the ignorance of our real purpose or through contempt of it the government will regard the feeding of such children or any attempt to prolong their lives as an act entirely opposed to it purpose since it considers the survival of these children as detrimental i recommend that such children shall not be received into the orphanages and no attempts are to be made to establish special orphanages for them minister of the interior talaat to the government of aleppo collect and keep only those orphans who cannot remember the tortures to which their parents have been subjected send the rest away with the caravans minister of the interior talaat from the ministry of the interior to the government of aleppo at a time when there are thousands of moslem refugees and the widows of shekid fallen soldiers are in need of food and protection it is not expedient to incur extra expenses by feeding the children left by armenians who will serve no purpose except that of giving trouble in the future it is necessary that these children should be turned out of your vilayet and sent with the caravans to the place of deportation those that have been kept till now are also to be sent away in compliance with our previous orders to sivas minister of the interior talaat in halide edip a pioneer turkish nationalist wrote in her memoirs about a conversation with talaat pasha verifying and rationalizing this ultra national fascist anti armenian mentality the following i have the conviction that as long as a nation does the best for its own interest and succeeds the world admires it and thinks it moral i am ready to die for what i have done and i know i shall die for it these telegrams were entered as unquestioned evidence during the trial of talaat pasha s assassin soghomon tehlerian the turkish government never questioned these death march orders until during a time when the world was again reminded of the genocide of the armenians for reasons known to those who study the psychology of genocide denial the turkish government and their supporters in crime deny that such orders were ever issued and further claim that these telegrams were forgeries based on a study by s orel and s yuca of the turkish historical society if one were to examine the sample authentic text provided in the turkish historical society study and use their same forgery test on that sample it too would be a forgery in fact if any of the tests delineated by the turkish historical society are performed an any piece of ottoman turkish or persian arabic script one finds that anything handwritten in such language is a forgery today the body of talaat pasha lies in a tomb on liberty hill istanbul turkey just next to the yildiz university campus the body of this genocide architect was returned to turkey from germany during ww when turkey was in a heightened state of proto fascism recently this monument has served as a focal point for anti armenianism in turkey this monument represents the epitome of the turkish government s pathological denial of a clear historical event and is an insult to a people whose only crime was to be born armenian references the memoirs of naim bey aram andonian pages ibid page ibid page ibid page ibid page ibid page memoirs of halide edip halide edip the century press new york and london page david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
talk.politics.mideast	treatment of armenians in azerbaijan deposition of vitaly nikolayevich danielian born attended th grade middle school no resident at building apartment microdistrict no sumgait azerbaijan really people in town didn t know what was happening on february i came home from school at o clock being excused to leave before the last period in order to go to baku when we left everything in town was fine life was the same as usual a few groups of people were discussing things soccer and other things then we got on the sumgait bus bound for baku for my first cousin s birthday my father my mother and i we spent the day in baku and on the th somewhere around p m we got on the bus for home figuring that i d have enough time to do my homework for the next day when we were entering town near the story high rises our bus was stopped by a very large crowd the crowd demanded that the armenians get off the bus the driver says that there are no armenians on board then everyone on the bus begins to shout that there are no armenians on board the group comes up to the doors of the bus and has people get out one by one not checking passports just going by the way people look we get off the bus but are not taken for armenians we set out in the direction of home at first we were going to go into an old building where we knew there d be a place to hide but the whole road was packed with groups of people all the way from block to the th microdistrict these groups were emptying people s pockets and checking passports people who didn t have passports with them were beaten as well then we decided to go home instead near the story high rises i saw burning cars and a great many people standing around the driveways yelling death to the armenians was written on the cars when we came into the courtyard we live in an l shaped building it was still quiet we went on upstairs but didn t turn on any lights we tried to call baku to warn our relatives who were due to arrive on wednesday not to come then there was a knock at the door it was our neighbors who advised us to come down to stay at their place we went down to their place and they led us to the basement they live on the first floor and have a basement which you enter across the balcony we sat in the basement while an armenian woman was beaten she ran away naked our neighbors daughter said that that s right that s what the armenians deserve because in stepanakert allegedly people were being killed girls from agdam had been raped we didn t stay very long in the basement we tried to support one another as best we could looking out the small window with the iron grating papa watched and said things now and then he said that there was a fire near building probably a car on fire then one of the groups approached our driveway and demanded that they be shown the apartments where armenians lived the neighbors said that there weren t any armenians here and the group set out for the other wing of the building they appeared from the side of the building where i later found out a woman had been murdered the woman who ran away naked died yuri avakian was killed too when the crowd left the neighbors said that it was all over and we could go home we went back up to our place and again didn t turn on the light we started to gather up our things in order to leave sumgait for a while we tried to call a relative who lived in sumgait but there was no answer we decided she had already left we sat at home the phone rang and the caller asked to speak with my father i called him to the phone it was jeykhun mamedov from my father s work brigade he said he was disgusted by what was happening in our town he asked for our address and promised to get a car and help us get out of the city to be quite honest papa didn t want to give him our address but my mother got on the phone and told him some minutes after the call a crowd ran into our entryway bursting into the building they broke down the door and came into the apartment they came straight to our apartment they knew exactly where the armenians were they came into our place we tried to resist but there was nothing we could do one of them took my parents passports and began to read them he read the surname danielian turned the page read armenian and that alone was enough to doom us he said that we should be moved quickly out into the courtyard where they would have done with us another standing next to him pushed some of the keys on the piano and said your death has tolled they had knives and steel truncheons i had a knife in my hand unfortunately i didn t use it i just knew that if i didn t give up the knife things would be much worse they struck my parents and said that i should put the knife on the piano then one of them commanded that we be taken outside one person was giving orders when we were taken outdoors i went in the middle and my mother was behind me someone started to push her so she d walk faster i let her go ahead of me and fell in behind her when he tried to push me i hit him and at that moment they began beating my parents i realized that resistance was completely useless we are taken out into the courtyard and the neighbors are standing on their balconies to see what will happen next the crowd surrounds us at first they strike me and i m knocked out when i come to they beat me again i lose consciousness often i don t see or hear my parents since i was the first one hit and was out cold when i come to i try to pick them up they are lying next to me the crowd is gone the only people around are watching from their balconies that s it i try to pick them up but can t my left arm is broken i start toward the drive wanting to tell the neighbors to call an ambulance the bodies of my parents are still warm we were attacked at around o clock i regain consciousness at about and try to make it up the stairs home when i knock at the neighbors door they push me back and tell me to go away i go up to the third floor our neighbor puts a damp cloth on my head and says she will call an ambulance she sends her son off for one and takes me to our apartment i often look out the window to see if the ambulance has arrived but i can t see very far as a result of the blows and it seems that my parents have already been taken away then i calm down and try to convince myself that they have been taken away and everything will be ok but they were still there later at in the morning as i found out the ambulance picked them up but they were already dead if they received attention on time it is possible they would still be alive later around o clock on the th policemen in civilian clothing come to our house with some assistants they call an ambulance and minutes later it arrives and i am taken to the sumgait emergency hospital there they stitch the wounds on my head and rebind my arm at o clock i and the other armenians who are in the hospital are sent by ambulance to baku in my ward at the sumgait hospital there were five people all of them armenians the hospital was nearly overflowing with armenians the only azerbaijanis there were those whose car had flipped over before the events before the th then i was in the semashko hospital in baku i was there days when i was released on the th day i found out that my parents were dead at first they told me that they were in moscow being treated but later i found out that they were dead my father s older brother told me my father s name was nikolai artemovich danielian he was born in my mother born in was seda osipovna danielian papa worked at pmk the leader of the roofing brigade mamma was a compressor operator they were also beaten on the head the coroner s report stated that their heads were smashed open and bled profusely at the confrontation i met jeykhun mamedov who had called as it turned out later he had been the one who tipped the crowd off he had called specifically to find out if we were at home and to find out the exact address and dispatch the group he knew the phone number but didn t know the address before the events i had never seen him but had often spoken with him on the phone when he would ask to speak with my father i knew him by name he denies that i was the one who answered the phone saying that my father answered it he denies that he called from a public phone saying that he called from home which also isn t true i heard noise and the sounds of automobiles as i later found out earlier he had been convicted but had never served any time he had received a suspended sentence he was about years old i don t know if he has since confessed or not i am sure that he was the one who tipped the crowd off one hundred percent sure my parents were from karabagh father was from the village of badar and was two years old when his family moved to baku where his elder brothers were to go to school he was a student at the naval school but never graduated he went off to work on the virgin lands one of the gigantic agricultural projects instituted under khrushchev when he returned he lived in baku and later moved to sumgait helping with the town s construction mamma was from the village of dagdagan also from karabagh she worked in sumgait first in a bookstore and later on a construction site my sister is older than i she lives with her husband here in karabagh i always loved my parents that was why i went on to th grade because it was their dream that i would continue my studies i finished th grade and wanted to enter the baku nautical school and after that the military school but later i changed my mind or rather my parents got me to recon sider saying that it would be better to finish the th grade and then join the naval school i was planning to be in the navy almost my whole life long since childhood i had dreamed of being a sailor my father wanted it more than anything he always recollected his youth telling of the school and he always said that he had made a big mistake in leaving it now i live in karabagh and never plan to leave here i will stay at the home of my grandfather of my ancestors till the end of my days while in the hospital in baku i learned the fates of many others who had suffered as well like ishkhan trdatov he managed to hold them off at their residence in microdistrict building apartment for a long time lost his father gabriel and by some miracle managed to survive i also learned of uncle sasha from building whose daughter was raped besides them valery i forgot his last name was in the hospital too about a year younger than i he went to school no he was riding with his parents in the car people were throwing rocks at them he was hit and his parents brought him to the hospital and he was in our ward we even came to be friends before that we had just seen each other around town but in the hospital we got to know one another better i learned of the fates of others those who had died or who were befallen by misfortune today suren harutunian the first secretary of the communist party of armenia was shown on television to be honest i am glad that armenia agreed to recognize nagorno karabagh as part of the armenian soviet socialist republic i was repelled no revolted to hear the baku announcer who read the decision of the azerbaijani supreme soviet presidium against karabagh becoming part of armenia after the events in sumgait and those in baku the best solution is to give karabagh to armenia return it to armenia since the people want to live peacefully with the azerbaijanis but everything has to be right before they can do that i arrived in karabagh on april i felt very bad i had constant headaches after a while my strength returned my older sister suzanna took me in i think that justice should prevail the people are demanding their due you can t take away what is their due my parents and i often spoke of nagorno karabagh often visited here spent almost all of my vacations here we had even decided that if karabagh would be made part of armenia we would move here for sure we always said that the armenian people had suffered much and that what had been done in removing nagorno karabagh from armenia was wrong sooner or later mistakes should be corrected and in order to correct a mistake it must not be repeated and the fate of all nagorno karabagh lies in the hands of our government june stepanakert david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
talk.politics.mideast	re islam borders vs israeli borders in article c wjj j r newsflash concordia ca ilyess ece concordia ca ilyess bdira writes in article bimacs bitnet ehrlich bimacs bitnet gideon ehrlich writes what are the borders the islamic world dreams about the islamic world dreams of being the whole planet but not by kicking the current inhabitant out we rather deam of the day everybody converts if jews had the same dream i would not feel threatened a bit contrary to what the protocols of zion crowd might suggest judaism does not have any such goals islamic readers i am waiting to your honest answer i want also a honest answer from zionists for the following questions why do jews who don t even believe in god as is the case with many of the founders of secular zionism have a right in palestine more than the inhabitants of palestine just because god gave you the land the question you ask is complicated and deserves an honest answer i am going to provide one from my own current perspective not a historical one currently as a non observant jew israeli american my own feeling is that jews from the diaspora do not have a greater right in palestine or israel than the palestinians or israelis both arab and jew do with regard to jewish israelis they should have the same rights in israel as do all other israelis why do most of them speak of the west bank as theirs while most of the inhabitants are not jews and do not want to be part of israel who are them if by them you mean the non religious jews i think you should be aware by now that the majority of the settlers and their supporters are religious the other part of the problem is to my knowledge not that the palestinians don t want to be a part of israel as much as they would accept for the most part being full citizens of israel with all the priviliges and responsibilities accorded israeli citizens what they object to is the current limbo in which they find themselves shai guday stealth bombers os software engineer thinking machines corp the winged ninjas of the skies cambridge ma
talk.politics.mideast	re israelis murdered in march sorry guys for this long article but in fact it is mostly quotings in article flax apr frej teknikum uu se flax frej teknikum uu se jonas flygare writes when you are intentionally neglecting the most important fact that the whole israeli presence in the occupied territories is illegitimate and hence all their actions their courts their laws are illegitimate on the ground of occupied territories no i am not neglecting that i m merely asking you whether the existance of israeli citicens in the wb or in gaza invalidates those individuals right to live a as you so eloquently put it human right we can get back to the question of which law should be used in the territories later also you have not adressed my question if the israelis also have human rights first my above statement doesnot say that the existence of israeli citizens in the wb revoke their right of life but it says the israeli occupation of the wb revoke the right of life for some most its citizens basically revokes the right of for its military men clearly occupation is an undeclared war during war attacks against military targets are fully legitimate ok let me re phrase the question i have repeatedly asked you if the israelis have less human rights than the palestinians well if you just waited for more lines you would have read my statement secondly surely israeli have human rights but and if so why because they belong to the human race or do you disagree on that too from your posting where you did not directly adress my question i inferred that you thought so together with the above statement i then assumed that the reason was the actions of the state of israel re your statement of occupation i d like you to define the term so i don t have to repeat this drag the answer out of hasan procedure more than neccesary secondly surely israeli have human rights but they ask their goverment to protect it by withdrawing from the occupied terretories not by further oppressing palestinean human rights i m sorry but the above sentence does not make sense please rephrase it i donot know about you but it makes full sense to me israelis are being killed because israel is occupying let israel withdraw and israeli blood will be saved it isnot the palestineans who undermined the right of life of israelis but it is israel which occupied and exposed the life of its citizens to the the unconcluded war of more generally the violence in the occupied terretories is part of the intifada and i had previously posted a long article about this issue whom i finished by an open question suppose the intifada stops what is the motive for israel to withdraw donot tell hope for peace and this bullshit everybody in the world looks and hopes for peace so why isnot there any hope of peace is necessary but not sufficient motive if a state can deprive all it s citizens of human rights by its actions then tell me why any human living today should have any rights at all because not all states are like israel as oppressive as ignorant or as tyrant oh ok so how about the human rights of the syrians iraqis and others does the name of hama sound familiar or how about the kurds in iraq and turkey how about the same in sweden ok maybe a bit farfetched the russians in the baltic states or the moslem in the old ussr and yugoslavia do the serbs have any human rights remainaing according to you as for the arabian countries their problems are an arabian concern the arabian people can deal with it themselves if the west doesnot intervene as for serbs i donot think that those fucked up rapists excuse my language but it really hurts as much if i was in bosnia itself arenot humans those surely came from outer space or something no human can allow himself to see such attrocities than to participate in and which system do you propose we use to solve the me problem the question is not which system would solve the me problem why because any system can solve it the laws of minister sharon says kick palestineans out of here all palestine i asked for which system should be used that will preserve human rights for all people involved i assumed that was obvious but i won t repeat that mistake now that i have straightened that out i m eagerly awaiting your reply so you agree that that an israeli solution wouldnot preserve human rights i am understanding this from your first statement in this paragraph no i m agreeing that to just kick all the palestinians out of israel proper would probably lead to disaster for both parties if that s what you refer to as the israeli solution then so be it ok joseph weitz administrator responsible for jewish colonization said it best when writing in his diary in between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples together in this country we shall not achieve our goal of being an independent people with the arabs in this small country the only solution is a palestine at least western palestine west of the jordan river without arabs and there is no other way than to transfer the arabs from here to the neighbouring countries to transfer all of them not one village not one tribe should be left only after this transfer will the country be able to absorb the millions of our own brethren there is no other way out davar september courtesy of marc afifi just a question if we are to disregard the rather obvious references to getting israel out of me one way or the other in both plo covenant and hamas charter that s the english translations if you have other information i d be interested to have you translate it why should we give any credence to a private paper even older i m not going to get into the question if he wrote the above but it s fairly obvious all parties in the conflict have their share of fanatics guess what those are not the people that will make any lasting peace in the region more deleted stuff exactly you are right i guess that the problem is that the israeli goverment is full with men like joseph weitz oh have you met with them personally to read their diaries fascinating what do you do for a living we and our either refers to zionists or jews i donot know which well i can give you an answer you master of wisdom i will not suggest the imperialist israeli system for solving the me problem i think that is fair enough no that is not an answer since i asked for a system that could solve the problem you said any could be used then you provided a contradiction above you wrote that you understood what i meant underlined by any system can be used to solve the conflict but not any system would resolve it justly an unjust solution would be a non solution per definition no my definition is the same as yours but one has to look into the world politics in politics a solution doesnot imply just solution you said the following for all a it holds that a have property b there exists an a such that property b does not hold thus either or both statements must be false guess where that takes your logic to never never land you are proving yourself as a first you understood what i meant but then you claim you didnot so to claim a contradiction in my logic too bad for you the master of wisdom i was merely pointing out a not so small flaw in your reasoning since you claim to be logical i felt it best to point this out before you started using your statements to prove a point or so am i then to assume you are not logical it seems that it was problem in the definition of solution i think a solution must be just because otherwise it would never be lasting however when politicians say a solution they donot mean a just solution but just a solution the greatest problem of zionism is arab children rabbi shoham oh and by the way let me add that these cute quotes you put at the end are a real bummer when i try giving your posts any credit why do you feel ashamed by things and facts that you believe in if you were a zionists if you believe in zionist codes and acts well i feel sorry for you because the same rabbi shoham had said yes zionism is racism if you feel ashamed and bothered by the zionist codes then drop zionism if you are not zionist why are you bothered then you should join me in condemning these racist zionist codes and acts any quote can be misused especially when used to stereotype all individuals by a statement of an individual if you use the same methods that you credit zionists with then where does that place you oh by the way i d advice you not to assume anything about my loyalties i will and am condemning acts i find vile and inhuman but i ll try as long as i can not to assume those acts are by a whole people by zionist above do you mean the state of israel the government of israel the leaders of israel political and or religious or the jews in general if you feel the need to condemn condemn those responsible instead how would you feel if we started condemning you personally based on the bombings in egypt jonas flygare hasan
talk.politics.mideast	re how many mutlus can dance on the head of a pin in apr mnemosyne cs du edu jfurr nyx cs du edu joel furr writes i dunno warren just the other day i heard a rumor that serdar argic aka hasan mutlu and ahmed cosar and zumabot is not really a turk at all but in fact is an armenian who is attempting to make any discussion of the massacres in armenia of turks so noise laden as to make serious discussion impossible thereby cloaking the historical record with a tremendous cloud of confusion but what is hasan b multu s middle name i m not sure but i heard it was bibo i also seem to recall that argic is azari for bites the wax macedonian we don t have a mail address but how about finding a snail address then instead of quashing shergold rumors we could just redirect them ahmed cosar is a seven year old greek boy with an incurable case of crossposting his wish is to get into the usenet book of world records for having the highest noise to signal ratio warren nysernet org
talk.politics.mideast	they were completely and systematically exterminated by armenians in article c xcu polaris async vt edu jfurr polaris async vt edu joel furr writes do it depew has shown himself to be unrepentant though embarrassed and still possessed of the same fucked up hubris laden self righteousness that the theory is that the hollering kills the spirit of the criminal nazi armenians of the asala sdpa arf terrorism and revisionism triangle now try dealing with the rest of what i wrote what is more the activities of the armenian government seem to have been efforts aimed at eradicating a race the turks or aimed at carrying out a one sided feud instead of being a struggle for liberation from the outset the efforts of the armenian revolutionaries within the ottoman borders took the form of terrorist and destructive actions aimed at mass murder cruelty and genocide so that no other interpretation of them is possible armenian activities started during the reign of abdulhamid ii as individual acts of terror and then developed into assassinations and surprise attacks the element of brute force in these activities increased steadily culminating in mass rebellions and widespread fighting during the first world war furthermore when the ottoman army withdrew from eastern anatolia after the sarikamis defeat armenian revolutionaries initiated a series of cruelties in this area although the russians occupied eastern anatolia as an enemy nevertheless they were constrained by the rules of war however when they returned to their country in after the revolution armenian revolutionaries were unchecked in this area for about a year until the ottoman forces returned to erzurum in during this period armenian revolutionaries executed massacres on the local people which is recorded in historical documents for example let us look at a report dated march which the commander of the third army submitted when he entered erzurum and erzincan they were completely and systematically destroyed and burned down by armenians even the trees were cut down and they are like a building entirely consumed by fire in every sense of the word as for the people who had been living in erzurum and erzincan those who were capable of fighting were taken away at the very beginning with the excuse of forced labor in road construction they were taken in the direction of sarikamis and annihilated when the russian army withdrew a part of the remaining people was destroyed in armenian massacres and cruelties they were thrown into wells they were locked in houses and burned down they were killed with bayonets and swords in places selected as butchering spots their bellies were torn open their lungs were pulled out and girls and women were hanged by their hair after being subjected to every conceivable abominable act a very small part of the people who were spared these abominations far worse than the cruelty of the inquisition resembled living dead and were suffering from temporary insanity because of the dire poverty they had lived in and because of the frightful experiences they had been subjected to including women and children such persons discovered so far do not exceed one thousand five hundred in erzincan and thirty thousand in erzurum all the fields in erzincan and erzurum are untilled everything that the people had has been taken away from them and we found them in a destitute situation at the present time the people are subsisting on some food they obtained impelled by starvation from russian storages left behind after their occupation of this area foreign observers who witnessed the events including russian officers who did not desert their lines submitted detailed reports proving the genocide to ottoman commanders who received them as prisoners of war what is most important is that they stated in their reports the massacres did not happen by chance but were planned at the end of the war the german author dr weiss his austrian colleague dr stein and his turkish colleague mr ahmet vefik visited trabzon kars erzurum and batum between april th and may th to record the cruelties their writings not only show the scope of armenian activities but also reveal their goal and true nature the ottoman state the ministry of war islam ahalinin ducar olduklari mezalim hakkinda vesaike mustenid malumat istanbul the french version documents relatifs aux atrocites commises par les armeniens sur la population musulmane istanbul in the latin script h k turkozu ed osmanli ve sovyet belgeleriyle ermeni mezalimi ankara in addition z basar ed ermenilerden gorduklerimiz ankara and edited by the same author ermeniler hakkinda makaleler derlemeler ankara askeri tarih belgeleri vol december document numbered askeri tarih belgeleri vol december document numbered from twerdo khlebof s report dated april quoted in ermeniler vol p a r altinay iki komite iki kital istanbul and kafkas yollarinda hatiralar ve tahassusler istanbul serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	in nazi germany armenians were considered to be an aryan race and in article bac ff news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes there was no such letter in the chronicle on that date or at any other time is this a figment of your imagination here is another one source mitteilungsblatt berlin december nr and yet another historical fact a fact that for years has been deliberately forgotten concealed and wiped from memory the fact of armenian nazi collaboration a magazine called mitteilungsblatt der deutsch armenischen gesselschaft is the clearest and most definite proof of this collaboration the magazine was first published in berlin in during nazi rule of germany and continued publication until the end of even the name of the magazine which implies a declaration of armenian nazi cooperation is attention getting this magazine every issue of which proves the collaboration is historically important as documentary evidence it is a heap of writing that should be an admonition to world opinion and to all mankind in nazi germany armenians were considered to be an aryan race and certain political economic and social rights were thus granted to them they occupied positions in public service and were partners in nazi practices the whole world of course knows what awaited those who were not considered aryan and what befell them serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	greek prime minister shows support for serbian criminals the above headline is much better than the original one read on in article yugoslav greeceu a pe clarinet com clarinews clarinet com dejan anastasijevic writes belgrade yugoslavia upi greek prime minister constantine mitsotakis visited the capital of the serbia montenegro federation tuesday in an apparent attempt to press serbian leaders into accepting the international plan to end the war in bosnia herzegovina so far so good i came here as an old friend of this country to help in solving the burning problem of bosnia herzegovina mitsotakis told reporters after talking for two hours with president slobodan milosevic of serbia old friend whatever i did not come here to discuss any particular plan i came to hear the serbian point of view he said adding that serbia is sincerely trying to bring peace to the region that is a great attitude for someone who wants to pressure the serbs to accept a peace plan that gives them most of the territory they got by force and terror milosevic said that serbia and greece had practically identical views on the bosnian war which started late in march when the this is a good thing to hear anybody wondering why serbia is not really under any boycott anybody remembers the gulf war did saddam kill people and rape women in an effort to pressure milosevic who is considered to be the main patron of serbian territorial conquest in bosnia the u n security council has threatened to impose new sanctions against serbia and montenegro and implement a no fly zone over bosnian skies still in the threatening stage maybe when there is no more bosnians the un will lift the arms embargo on them military intervention that is reserved for muslim countries now hear this after meeting milosevic mitsotakis had separate talks with radovan karadzic the leader of bosnian serbs i encouraged mr karadzic to proceed with his efforts to achieve a just peace in the region he said we are ready to play a positive role in the balkans said mitsotakis real positive i might add in favor of his old freinds of course karadzic said that he was honored to meet the greek premier greeks are not one sided and they do not tend to condemn only one you bet they are not side in this war said karadzic we will continue to negotiate on all levels he said before meeting with milosevic mitsotakis had talks with president dobrica cosic of the federal yugoslav union of serbia and montenegro and patriarch pavle the head priest of the serbian orthodox church anybody is still convinced that this is not a religious war a psychopath like karadzik is considered a peacelover of course he sent muslims to permanent peace with the blessings of patriarch pavle
talk.politics.mideast	re was go hezbollah we really should try to be as understanding as we can for brad because it appears killing is all he knows jesse
talk.politics.mideast	brad hernlem vs principle in his neverending effort to make sure that we do not forget what a moron he is brad hernlem has asked why israel rarely abides by un security council resolutions perhaps the list below might answer the question incident security council response hindu moslem clash in india over killed none gassing to death of over kurds by none iraqi air force saudi security forces slaughter none pilgrims in mecca killing by algerian army of demonstrators none intrafada arabs killing arabs over killed none civilians slaughtered by government none troops in hama syria killing of palestinians by jordanian troops none thousands expelled sept moslems killed in egypt none killed in egyption bread riots none border and rocket attacks against israel by none the plo in alone munich israeli athletes slaughtered none ma alot children killed in plo attack none israel coastal bus attack dead wounded none syria kills palestinians none lebanon over dead since none yemen killed in two weeks none sudan tens of thousands of black slaves none civil war toll million killed million refugees tienenman square massacre none rumania killed none pan am disaster carried out by the p l o none northern ireland none cambodia none soviet occupation of afghanistan none american riots at attica watts newark kent state none israel destroys iraqi reractor israel condemned israeli police protect israeli worshipers condemned against arab mob anti jewish rioters killed syrian soldiers slaughter christian soldiers none after they surrender it appears that brad hernlem and the united nations security council have something in common they both seem unfettered by the demands of acting on principle
talk.politics.mideast	re no humanity in bosnia it is very encouraging that a number of people took so interest in my posting i recieved a couple of letters too some has debated the statement that events in bosnia are unprecedented in the history of the modern world those who contest this statement present the figures of the world war ii however we must keep in mind that it was a world war and no country had the power to stop it today is the matter not of the power but of the will it seems to be that what we lack is the will second point of difference which makes it different from the holocast sp is that at that time international community didnot have enough muscle to prevent the unfortunate event today inspite of all the might the international community is not just standing neutral but has placed an arms embargo which is to the obvious disadvantage of the weeker side and therefore to the advantage of the bully hence indirecltly and possibly unintentionally mankind has sided with the killers and this i think is unprecedented in the history of the modern world m rizvi
talk.politics.mideast	re turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece armenia azeris in article c if u ky news cso uiuc edu ptg uxa cso uiuc edu panos tamamidis writes yeah too much mutlu argic isn t helping i could one day proceed and you shouldn t think many turks read mutlu argic stuff they are in my kill file likewise any other fanatic i have nothing against greeks but my problem is with fanatics i have met so many greeks who wouldn t even talk to me because i am turkish from my experience all my friends always were open to greeks well the history wars current situations all of them do not help well panos mr tamamidis the way you put it it is only the turks who bear the responsibility of the things happening today that is hard to believe for somebody trying to be objective when it comes to conflicts like our countries having you cannot blame one side only there always are bad guys on both sides what were you doing on anatolia after the ww anyway do you think it was your right to be there i am not saying that conflicts started with that it is only not one side being the aggressive and the ither always suffering it is sad that we both still are not trying to compromise i remember the action of the turkish government by removing the visa requirement for greeks to come to turkey i thought it was a positive attempt to make the relations better the greeks i mentioned who wouldn t talk to me are educated people they have never met me but they know i am bad person because i am from turkey politics is not my business and it is not the business of most of the turks when it comes to individuals why the hatred so that makes me think that there is some kind of brainwashing going on in greece after all why would an educated person treat every person from a nation the same way can you tell me about your history books and things you learn about greek turkish encounters during your schooling take it easy tankut atan tankut iastate edu achtung baby
talk.politics.mideast	peace talks from israeline today s ma ariv reports that yesterday following egyptian president hosni mubarak s meeting with plo chief yasser arafat and prominent palestinian faisal al husseini the latter said that in principle the palestinians have decided to participate in the peace talks nonetheless he noted that everything will be decided upon at the meeting of the arab foreign ministers in damascus the newspaper also reports that threatening phone calls were recently made to houses of several of the senior members of the palestinian delegation to the peace talks the threats in arabic demanded that the delegates not go to washington to sell out the palestinian people one caller threatened should you go you will not find your family alive upon your return the newspaper states that such phone calls were received as far as is known at the houses of faisal al husseini hanan ashrawi and others naftaly stramer intergraph electronics internet nstramer dazixco ingr com lookout road suite a voice fax boulder co quality is everybody s job and it s everybody s job to watch all that they can
talk.politics.mideast	accounts of anti armenian human rights violations in azerbaijan accounts of anti armenian human rights violations in azerbaijan prelude to current events in nagorno karabakh they grab papa carry him into one room and mamma and me into another they put mamma on the bed and start undressing her beating her legs they start tearing my clothes right there in front of mamma i don t remember where they went what they did or how much time passed i had the feeling that they beat me on the head on my body and tore my clothes all at the same time i don t even know what i said the atrocities started i was savagely raped in that room they argued among themselves who would go first deposition of karine karina grigorevna m born secretary typist azsantekmontazh trust sumgait construction and installation administration secretary of the smu komsomol organization resident at building b apartment microdistrict no sumgait azerbaijan on the th my sister marina and i went to the movies the seven o clock show at the theater that is across from the city party committee about yards away the sk theater they were showing an argentinian film the abyss before the film we noticed about to people standing near the podium at the city party committee but they were silent there s no conversation whatsoever and we couldn t figure out what was going on that is we knew it was about karabagh but what it was exactly what they were talking about if someone gave a speech or not we didn t know we bought our tickets there were or people in the theater this was a very small number for that large movie theater the film started about minutes later they stopped the film a crowd burst in about people they came up onto the stage well mostly they were young people from to years old they demanded that an armenian woman come up onto the stage they used foul language and said that they were going to show what azerbaijanis were capable of what they could do to armenian girls i thought that s what they meant because they had demanded a girl specifically marina and i were sitting together i told her to move over there were some russian girls sitting nearby so that if someone recognized me or if something happened they would take me and not marina it got quiet or girls jumped up to run out but the door was closed it s only opened at the end of the show and they returned to their seats everyone in the theater was looking at one another russians azerbaijanis people of various nationalities but no one reacted at all no one in the auditorium made a sound they were silent looking at one another and gradually started to leave some guy a really fat one says ok we ve scared them enough let s leave they leave slowly pompously it seemed to me that those people were not themselves either they had smoked a bunch of anasha or had taken something else because they all looked beastly like they were ready to tear anyone apart then it was all over as though nothing had happened at all the film started up again it was one of those cheerful films which should have only brought pleasure made you happy to be alive we could barely sit to the end so it had started at seven it was over by nine and it was dark marina and i were walking home lenin street that s the center of town lenin street was packed just packed with young people they were shouting something about karabagh and something about armenians we weren t especially listening because the way we were feeling we didn t know if we were going to make it home or not and just what had happened anyway public transportation wasn t running incidentally when we came out of the theater we saw police policemen standing there the director of the movie theater was looking at the doors because when they were leaving they had broken the glass the doors there are basically all glass everything was broken he stood there grief stricken but looking as though nothing really big had happened like some naughty boys had just broken them quite by accident with a slingshot well since he looked more or less calm i decided that nothing all that super serious had happened we went out very slowly we wanted to catch a bus we live literally one stop away we didn t want to go on foot not because it was dark but because something might happen we flagged down a cab but the driver didn t want to take us we told him we live near the bus station and he said he d take us to the bus station and not a yard farther i said well ok so we got into the cab and managed to get there something incredible was happening at the bus station there was a traffic jam public transportation was at a standstill and everyone was shouting ka ra bagh they re not going to give up karabagh i go home and tell my family what s going on and there s immediate panic in the house mamma says what should we do like the end had come they were going to come kill us that s it somehow we managed to cheer ourselves up nothing that bad could happen where are we living anyway just what kind of social order do we have somehow we manage to calm mamma down and we went to bed but no one could sleep everyone made as though nothing had happened that was on saturday in short the day went by we didn t go anywhere and didn t call our relatives no one did anything because life goes on that day i realized something was approaching but what exactly i couldn t guess on the th everything was like it was supposed to be we lived like we always had there were five of us at home mamma papa and us three sisters lyuda marina and i my sister lyuda was in yerevan at the time we sat at home and no one went out later we learned that a demonstration had started that morning it all started they were smashing up stores we were sitting at home and didn t know anything about it then a girlfriend of mine lyuda zimogliad came by at around three o clock i think we worked together we did our apprenticeships together she s a russian girl she said that something awful was happening in town i asked don t they want armenians well what are they after if they re already in that state she says no nothing like that it s just a demonstration but it s awful to watch it somehow it feels like a war has broken out public transportation has been stopped the cabs the buses well it s just a nightmare then papa decides to go to the drugstore my mother was having allergy problems at the time he left the house and our neighbor aunt vera asked him where are you going stop there are such terrible things going on in the courtyard aren t you afraid to go out papa didn t know what she was talking about she simply pushed him back into the entryway he came home and told mamma mamma said well if aunt vera was talking like that it means that something is really going on but we didn t go see her she s a russian she lives across from us i had to see my friend out around five o clock i tell lyuda ok look it s time for you to go it s late already i ll see you out mamma says you don t need to go it s too late already you can see what the situation in town is so we decided to stay home dinner was ready mamma says let her eat with us then she can go we sat down at the table but no one was hungry no one was in the mood we just put everything out on the table to calm ourselves down and make it appear that we re eating we turned on the television and the show in fairy tale land was coming on we cleared the table we hear some noise out in the courtyard i go out on the balcony but i can t see what s going on because the noise is coming from the direction of the bus station and there is a story building in the way there is mob of people i can t figure out what s happening they re shouting something looking somewhere i can t make out what is going on i go down to a neighbor she s an azerbaijani we ve been friends of her family for about years i go down to look from their place i see people shouting looking at the and story buildings near the bus station just then soldiers set upon them about people with clubs the mob runs off in different directions i even see several people from our building they are looking and laughing i decide that means it s not all that bad if they are laughing it means they re not killing anyone but now the crowd suddenly dashes toward the soldiers one of the soldiers cannot manage to get away they start stomping on him with their feet everyone s kicking him i become ill and go home and explain in general terms that horrible things are going on out there can t speak well they ve probably killed that soldier the way that crowd is if each of them kicked him just once they took his club away from him and started to beat him with it but it was far away and i couldn t see if he got up and left or not i become terrified and go home and say lyuda don t go anywhere stay at our place because if you go out they could kill you or then the crowd runs over closer toward our building and stands at the story building and starts shouting something we go out onto the balcony all of our neighbors are also out on theirs too everyone is standing staring the mob is shouting and about minutes later comes running toward our building as it turns out at the story building the azerbaijani neighbors went down and kept them from coming in there s only one entryway there they could stop them they all run up to our building mamma immediately starts closing the windows afraid that they might throw stones they have stones and they break the windows all of them there are very many people we have a large courtyard and it s packed with people they spill up to the first floor so they don t crush each other they crawl up on trees posts and garages it s just a huge cloud of people they break and burn the motorcycle of the armenian sergey sargisian from our building we close the windows and immediately hear tramping in our entryway they come up to our fifth floor with a tremendous din and roar it s incomprehensible mamma told me later that they were shouting father s name grisha open the door we ve come to kill you or something like that i don t remember that i was spaced out kind of mamma says into the bedroom quickly in the bedroom we have two tall beds part of our dowry mamma says hide there they probably won t come in there they ll ask something say something and leave she says we ll tell them that we live alone here i can t imagine that my parents will stand out in the hall alone talking with some sort of beasts i go to them and say that i ll stand together with them i ll talk with them if they come maybe i can find a common language with them all the more so if they know me i speak azerbaijani more or less and i can find out what they want i told marina and lyuda to hide under the bed and my sister lyuda i can t remember if i told her anything or not then they open the door it s like they blew on it and it broke and fell right into the hall the crows bursts in and starts to shout get out of here leave vacate the apartment and go back to your armenia things like that i tell them what has happened speak calmly one of you tell me calmly what has happened in azerbaijani they say get out of the apartment leave i say ok go downstairs we ll gather everything we need and leave the apartment i realize that it is senseless to discuss any sort of rights with them these are animals they must be stopped the ones standing in the doorway the young guys say there are old people and one girl with them too bad they take two or three steps back it seems as though i have pacified them with our exchange then someone in the courtyard shouts commanding them don t you understand what you are saying kill them and that was it that was all it took they grab papa carry him into one room and mamma and me into another they put mamma on the bed and start undressing her beating her legs they start tearing my clothes right there in front of mamma i don t remember where they went what they did or how much time passed i had the feeling that they beat me on the head on my body and tore my clothes all at the same time i don t even know what i said the atrocities started i was savagely raped in that room they argued among themselves who would go first later i remember i came to i don t know if i m dead or alive someone comes in someone tall i think clean shaven in an eskimo dogskin coat balding he looks around at what s happening at that instant everything stops it seems to me that he is either their commander or that somehow everything depends on him he looks and says well we re done here they are beating mamma on the head they break up the chairs and beat her with the chair legs she loses consciousness and they decide that she s dead papa was out cold they want to throw lyuda off the balcony but they can t get the window open apparently the window frames are stuck after the rain and the windows can t be opened they leave her next to the window she was thinking about being thrown out the window and passed out she s not a real strong person anyway he looks at me and sees that i m saying something that i m still twitching well i start saying the opposite of what i should be which is humbling myself and pleading i start shouting cursing they don t get any entreaty out of me i already know that i m dead why would i humble myself before anyone and he says that if that s what i think since my tongue is so long maybe he thinks that i still look quite appealing in short he commands that i be taken outside i no longer saw or remembered what was happening to marina and lyuda i don t know if they are alive or not they take me outside they are dragging me by my arms by my legs they are hitting me against the wall the railings something metal while they are carrying me someone is biting me someone else is pinching me i don t even know i think my god when will death come if only it were sooner then they carry me out throw me near the entryway and start kicking me i lose consciousness what happened after that how many people there were i don t remember i come to after a while i don t remember how long a neighbor is bringing me clothing i m entirely covered with blood she puts a dress on me i remember that i said the same words over and over again mamma what happened mamma what have they done to us where are we whose house are we at i can t make sense out of anything there is a guy standing over me i sort of know him he served in afghanistan his name is igor he brought me indoors when they all went to the third entryway and killed a person there igor gathered his courage took me into his arms and brought me to the neighbors even though he s small minded he put himself at risk igor agayev is azerbaijani he served in afghanistan there are three brothers the older brother also served there i think now he s stationed here on the border in armenia igor brought me to the neighbors and then helped me come to my senses saying karina i know you calm down i m not one of them how do i know who s who and what s what i come to and they clean me up i was covered in blood then papa i saw papa i saw mamma and marina too igor was there when they dragged marina and lyuda out from under the bed marina lyuda said that she was russian they said we ll let you go we aren t touching the russians go and while they are dragging marina out she decides she s going to tell them she s azerbaijani igor immediately grabs marina s and lyuda s hands because he knows marina and knows that she is armenian and is our sister and takes her to the second floor to a neighbor s and starts pounding on the door so she will open up she opens the door and igor pushes them in there so they survived my sister lyuda lost consciousness after the bandits started stealing things while they were going downstairs taking things downstairs then coming back up again lyuda seized the opportunity and crawled under the bed and stayed there then when she was herself again she found a torn night shirt and put it on and some sort of robe and went to a neighbor s on the fourth floor the one whose apartment i had watched the crowd from the friend of ours and knocked on the door the neighbor opened and said i m not going to let you in the apartment because i m afraid of them but i ll give you some stockings and we ll leave the building lyuda says i ll stay at your place because of what s going on they keep going up and down the stairs it was just for a moment just a moment in life but the neighbor wouldn t consent lyuda came back to our place and lay under the bed i came to mother was there i can t remember my supervisor s telephone number but something had to be done somehow i remembered and called and he came to get us he didn t have any idea what was going on he thought we were simply afraid he didn t know that they were killing us and that we had passed between life and death he came and got us and took us to the police precinct there they looked us over i was having trouble walking my lungs hurt badly it was hard to breathe my supervisor s name is urshan feyruzovich mamedov he s the head of our administration they took us there when we were leaving i saw a great number of buses full of soldiers at the entrance to town the buses were ordinary passenger buses there were very many soldiers we left around eleven right after eleven if these people could stop what was happening they could save a great many lives because the crowd was moving on toward the school and what was going on there i think everyone know not only in sumgait not only in yerevan because there they murdered them all one after the next without stopping after us i think people died in microdistrict no and to of them were from buildings and in our building one person died and one old woman died from building that s the building in front of ours there young azerbaijani men stopped the mob and wouldn t let it into their building incidentally when we were at the neighbors marina called our relatives to warn them so they would all know what was happening i called a aunt in microdistrict no they have three neighbors who are armenians i said run quickly i can t explain what s going on hide do what you can just stay alive hide at azerbaijanis ones who won t give you away at that moment three people came in policemen i think they were azerbaijanis i was in such awful condition my face was completely distorted my lips were puffed up there was blood my eye was swollen no one thought i would ever see anything out of that eye again my forehead was badly cut and one half of my face was pushed out forward no one would have thought that i would survive get my normal appearance back and be able to grasp anything at all i started to scream at those people why did you come who sent you here no one wants you here haven t you killed people people yet what are you doing here one of the soldiers said don t scream at us we re muslims but we re not from the sumgait police they called in from daghestan so at that point the daghestan police were there when we got to the police precinct there were an awful lot of police there there were soldiers police with dogs ambulances firemen i don t know maybe they were waiting for people to bring them the goners and the seriously injured to treat them there in the police precinct i don t know what they were there for there were also doctors from baku there they examined lyuda and me and said these women need to go to the maternity home but we don t know what to do with the rest so they took us and i lost contact with my parents my boss everyone my boss said don t worry i ll find you no matter where you are no matter what happens we went to the hospital there we were examined by a department head from the sumgait maternity home pashayeva i think her name was she examined us the ambulance was from baku i figured out that the sumgait ambulances hadn t done anything they didn t respond to any calls people called and neither the police nor the ambulances showed any sign of life that doctor looked me over and i could tell from her behavior that something very good had happened for she became quite glad i even thought to myself god can it be that nothing all that bad is wrong she looks me over and says now why are you suffering so you don t know what your people have been doing your people did even worse things and i think great i have to deal with her and i felt so bad i thought why don t i just die so as not to have to hear more stuff like this from people like her here i am in this condition and being told about something that our people did i just didn t have the energy to say how could our people possibly be smart enough to think of something that yours haven t already done i stayed there then they brought in another woman ira b she was married and she was raped in her own apartment too there were three of us ira lyuda and the next morning they took lyuda and ira away they didn t do anything to help us this was in the old maternity home in the combined block they didn t do anything more than examine me that was it i didn t want any shots or tranquilizer nothing what shots could have calmed me down i didn t even want to look at them i lay in the ward either it just worked out that way or they did it on pur pose but i was alone i was alone even though the wards were packed that same evening a woman came by and asked me what was wrong with me that my face was disfigured she asked what had happened to me and i said better to ask your brother what happened there s no point in asking me your brother can better explain what happened she fell into a faint all the doctors threw themselves at her and the doctor categorically forbade anyone to come into my ward then people from work came to see me my boss his daughter they brought me clothing because i was literally naked the only thing i had on was a dress but the woman who gave it to me was very short and the dress was way up above my knees and the woman orderly said i can t believe you put on such a short dress who are you showing off your legs to here i went back to my ward thinking just one more thing from something people from work came and brought me something in a sack apples i think three or four pounds but i couldn t take them i had become so weak that it was just embarrassing i said that i couldn t take the apples and really didn t have any appetite no one had to bring me anything some woman took the sack and oh yes then i heard that the head doctor tell a nurse that my medical history should be hidden or torn up completely so that no one would know that i was an armenian maybe they wouldn t figure it out from looking at me so they must have been thinking that there would be some kind of attack that something else would happen that it would be worse or perhaps someone was outside on the street i don t know in any case i didn t sleep a wink that night the next morning they picked me up a whole police detail put me in a bus and off we went i didn t even know where they were taking me they took me to the club where the troops were the very one i was in that ill fated evening i got off the bus near the city party committee there were a great many troops tanks armored personnel carriers the whole scene was terrible i saw a few people i knew there and that calmed me a little i had already thought that i was the only one left so there were five or six of us left in sumgait after that night i still didn t know what happened to my parents they didn t come to see me in the hospital and my boss told me that everything was fine i didn t know whether to believe him or not maybe he was just trying to calm me down maybe something happened on the way then i went to the club and saw a lot of people i knew they all knew one another they were all kissing each other and asking what happened what went on two days later they came to see me from work they were there all the time each day they came showed interest and were constantly bringing me money they did everything they could of course i m most thankful to my boss the only one of my colleagues who didn t lose his presence of mind and who didn t change his opinions neither before nor after nor in the heat of the moment no matter what happened he constantly took an interest a sincere interest from the heart then about two days later the secretary of the party committee came not from our party organization but from the first trust which ours is part of comrade kerimov a very important figure in our town he made arrangements with the emergency medical personnel to take me away because if i sat down by myself i couldn t get up or lie down again there was something wrong with my lungs it was hard to breathe they examined me there several times there i lay were several doctors they all thought that that it must just be from all the blows i don t know they didn t diagnose anything in particular when i was in the maternity home i even asked i made it a point of insisting that they take me to the trauma section because i felt so awful there was no way something inside wasn t broken my ribs well they took me there and took x rays and said that everything was fine there were emergency medical workers on duty in the club the mother of one of marina s friends was there she was the head doctor at the sumgait children s clinic they had every kind of antifever agent in the world which was exactly what i needed at that moment i thought i said that i was having great difficulty breathing i couldn t seem to get enough air something was wrong with me they put tight bandages around my chest and waist later i overheard some people saying that i had been cut all over i think they just saw me being all bandaged up and decided that my breasts and face had been cut but i wasn t cut they took us to the khimik boarding house we lived there a long time soon appeared representatives they were agitating at first people would not talk to them and drove them off one of the armenian women shouted we demand that seidov come the response was it s seidov who sent us seidov is the chairman of the azerbaijani council of ministers the woman said we ll only see seidov s daughter have her come here we ll do the same things to her that they did to our daughters and then we ll deal with you agitators and so on more of them said have seidov himself come this went on day in day out the agitators kept coming and coming this drove us out of our wits then people gradually started departing for yerevan because they realized it was senseless to stay everything got on our nerves the smell the small children there were children at the sk club children who had literally just come out of the maternity home what were they doing in a club that didn t even have running water all the time at first we had to pay to eat there they even overcharged us as it turned out on the second day someone told us that they would bring us food for free the children were ill everything stank there well imagine about people in a small movie theater with seating for no more than you couldn t sit or lie down it was impossible to even move the stench was awful even the smallest infants took ill overnight there i heard that they were arriving seriously ill in yerevan the infants they have to be washed they have to be bathed not to mention that we the adults were ill and needed care people were fainting right and left i just don t know everyone was crying everyone only the young people the men somehow managed to keep it together but the women were in a constant state of panic it seemed to everyone that they would come any minute and kill and stab it seemed clear that we had been gathered together purposely like during the war so that they could burn the movie theater and there wouldn t be a single armenian left then people went up to the attic i didn t see them i only heard them because i was lying down and couldn t get up i lay right on the stage we had some room there apparently they caught two people with either oil or gas i think they wanted to burn the theater maybe someone saw them i didn t i was in no condition to open my eyes everyone was suspicious of everyone else they would ask aren t you an azerbaijani i think i saw you somewhere i think you re an azerbaijani they led out all the men and started letting them back in by checking their passports relatives might be covering for each other half of the people did not have any documents there were people who had run out of their homes in nothing but a pair of pants and slippers or wearing just a shirt not like they should have with their ids so on the th on sunday i think the police did nothing to help us on monday everything resumed where it had left off on block a they didn t spare a soul there not children not pregnant women nobody they killed they burned they hacked with axes just everything possible they murdered the melkumian family whom i knew my mother worked with them their daughter in law went to school with my older sister they were brutally murdered only the two daughters in law survived by a miracle one was able to save herself she ran away the neighbors wouldn t take her in so she ran about the building until she found refuge she was pregnant and had two small children this all continued on monday in block a on the th when the troops were already in the city they murdered people they overturned automobiles and they burned entire families they say they didn t even know for sure if the people were armenians or not i heard that the lezgins suffered too i m not sure myself i didn t see any lezgins who had been injured they burned cars so it s very difficult now to say exactly who died and who didn t it was very difficult to identify the corpses or rather what remained of the corpses after they were doused in gasoline and burned it s all very hard to imagine of course i heard that many people disappeared without a trace from the btz plant two people including a woman who worked the night shift aunt razmella who also lived in microdistrict they were stopping buses between baku and sumgait in the evening people who had been visiting baku were returning to sumgait and people from baku were going home from sumgait and there were students too they were simply savagely murdered they were stopping the buses the drivers immediately did what they were told because there was just no other way to deal with that hoard of brutally minded people they stopped the buses dragged the armenians out and killed them on the spot i didn t see it myself but i heard that they put them all in a pile so as to burn them later it was hard to discern from the corpses well you can t call them corpses you had to figure out from the ashes who it was l heard that two fellows saved two women one a student ira g if i m not mistaken she was in the hospital a long time after that and she still can t figure out who saved her she was also brutally raped and beaten and thrown onto a pile of corpses the fellow pulled her out of that whole pile of corpses put his coat on her took her into his arms and carried her to the city i still can t imagine how he managed to do that i heard that from engels grigorian he knows her apparently well a lot of people went to that hospital anyway she was in the hospital and singing a song in armenian and they wrote the words down and i think he still has that piece of paper because he says that a lot of people now have that song the one she sang in the hospital where she lay in such bad shape they couldn t find the guy who saved her he left her in someone s apartment and called the ambulance she was in such awful shape that probably like me she couldn t remember anyone s face i think that i knew one of the people who broke into our house maybe i had talked with him once but i received so many blows everything was just knocked out of my head i can t remember to this day who he was then it seems i saw the secretary of the directorate s party organization where marina works she goes to school and works she goes to night school at azi and works by day at the khimzashchita construction and installation administration i m the secretary of the komsomol organization at our administration and often met with the secretaries of party and komsomol organizations we had joint meetings i know them all i ve even talked with them and he i know is from armenia an azerbaijani but from armenia it became obvious that many of those people were azerbaijanis born in armenia they took me to various police stations to the police precinct and to the procuracy because the ussr procuracy got involved in the case and i iden tified the photographs of people who i could more or less recognize they showed me the people who were in our apartment they re working on our case but i can t even recognize them although it was proved that they were the ones they re processing it somehow they tell me that they know that someone held me by the arm and someone else held me by the leg when they were dragging me there was someone else in our apartment who did not even touch me he just stole a blanket and an earring or something like that all these people all of them as much as i ve heard about them and seen them they were all from kafan the secretary of the party organization is named najaf najaf rzayev he was there when everything started it must have been him because i didn t recognize anyone else in the crowd whom i knew besides him all the more since i told him listen you do something because you know me he turned away and went toward the bedroom where marina was well you couldn t see marina anyway there was such a noisy confusion of people that you couldn t make out anyone all of it flew right out of my head and then gradually i became myself again at the city party committee there were military people there i told them what went on and they wrote it all down i told them his name on march the secretary of our first trust party organization the one we re part of came to see us his name is najaf rzayev i tell mamma if he s here despite the fact that i gave his name it means that either his alibi has been confirmed or probably that they think i m crazy not responsible for my words he said what did they do to you how awful myself i hid an armenian family then after some time goes by he comes back again and says something entirely different i wasn t at home my family and i went to baku i said marina what is he saying he said something totally different before after that i didn t go to see our procurator our case is being handled by a procurator from voronezh fedorov by name fedorov told me that rzayev s case had just gotten to him and there were so names involved what are they doing with rzayev did he prove his alibi or not they just think that since i was hit in the head i can t say anything for sure whether it was him or not it will be an insult if he was in our apartment and doesn t have to pay for it but at the same time i m afraid to say i m a hundred percent sure that it was he because no mat ter who i name they tell me no you re wrong he didn t do that that one wasn t there all the faces have gotten mixed up in my mind who did what exactly i can t say when they took me outside there was a whole crowd there but i didn t see it because i had my eyes closed all the time it seemed to me that i always got it because of my eyes people were always hassling me for some reason it always seemed to me that my eyes are responsible when they were beating my face i thought they were trying to put my eyes out so i had my eyes closed they took me outside and started to beat me a young guy held my arms he works at the btz plant and right nearby across the road from us block is where all this was going on right across the road from us the btz dormitory is over there that s where he lives now he s in custody they even have proved as far as i know that it was he who killed shurik gambarian the clarinet player from the third entryway of our building one person in our building was killed it was that man a guy comes by who shared a room with the guy who was holding me he saw that he was holding me by the arms and that he was beating me but he didn t come over he just looked and then went into the dormitory a while after it was all over people started making announcements in town saying that investigators had been summoned that guy went and told them everything now they ve caught him everything s been proved now evidently they ve been beating him i don t know what they re doing with them over there but he himself said that he was working the night shift at the plant some young guy came to the plant and said everyone who wants to kill armenians come to the bus station on saturday at ten that was it he said the ones who wanted to went this was at the btz plant during the night shift probably late friday night it was at night they were at the sauna together and he said what do you mean do you understand what you are saying the others were silent probably in their hearts they were thinking i m going to go but they didn t say anything to one another he said that he thought it important to to go because he had heard a lot about what had happened in kafan that they had killed their azerbaijani sisters their mothers burned villages and all of that that guy was also born in kafan that is certain and marina says that the secretary of the party organization is from armenia too from i ve participated in the investigation a couple of times i m satisfied with them thus far they summoned us and asked about what happened and every word i said was recorded i met some guy there by the way he was an armenian i said that he was in our apartment but what he did i don t know his last name was grigorian eduard grigorian he s from sumgait from microdistrict he was sentenced i think to five years not his first time his mother is russian i met with him at the kgb in baku at the azerbaijani kgb they took us there and showed me photographs there were so many photographs i think they even photographed those people who were caught at curfew and i ve got them all confused i say the face was about like this the guy in the white coat with the red clasps but he could take that coat off and burn it somewhere and it would be like looking for a needle in a haystack well this guy grigorian i said he was in our apartment but he is so light complected that he looks like a lezgin i don t know what he did i can t remember maybe he beat me or raped me but he was in our apartment at the kgb he started asking me pleading with me there s no need for this all this stuff look me in the eyes you re like a sister to me i took a look at him and thought my god heaven forbid that i should have a brother like you but they were satisfied with my responses because i said everything without great certainty i was there with mamma then lyuda came in but when she came in she got sick immediately she wanted to kill him she crawled over the table at him she recognized him when she came to lyuda was lying on the balcony the mob threw her there and all of them ran into the bedroom we had all kinds of boxes with dishes in them the dowries for all three sisters they stole everything in the apartment leaving only small things at that moment lyuda came to and started remembering everything well seeing the faces hearing the voices two people were saying they could burn the apartment another says why burn the apartment when i ve got three kids and no place to live so this guy was in temporary housing he didn t have anywhere to live he was from sumgait they were sure that they would get the apartment besides the neighbors were azerbaijani why should they burn the apartment they might burn azerbaijanis that s what they said how did they know there were azerbaijanis there if they just picked a place thinking that armenians lived there we have a list of the residents for our part of the building our name is in there but how could they know that azerbaijanis lived on the other side of the wall from us so they didn t set fire to our apartment i don t know i was in such bad shape that if all of it had come to a halt when i was outside if someone had asked me what was happening i would have said that a civil war was going on well maybe not civil but probably civil because when they were beating me i opened my eyes and saw that all the neighbors were standing on their balconies and watching like at a free horror film so a civil war was going on and only the armenians were being fought if it were a world war or something like that they would have been fighting everyone but they only fought us then i met some women from our building some azerbaijanis they are crying they tell me karina we saw all of it how could it happen they re asking me well i just don t know what to call it if a normal girl can stand there and watch what happened to me i think that if it were the other way around either i wouldn t have been able to take it or i would have tried to avert it like that one azerbaijani woman did in front of our building a woman lives there an awful dissipated woman if you can call her a woman the dissipated life she leads two armenian families live there in her part of the building she came out on the balcony and saw what was happening to me and started to scream and curse she came down to the entryway and said you ll come in this entryway over my dead body so not one of them took it in his head to go in that entryway some folks were saying that those people were so out of control that they didn t even know what they were doing i don t think that s true they knew very well what they were doing if they didn t even lift a hand against that woman they couldn t have cared less about her but the fact that she was an azerbaijani stopped them they were just beasts they had smoked so much when they came to our place they were all chewing something i noticed everyone who came into the apartment was chewing something i think my god maybe i just think that maybe i m losing my mind but no they re all chewing something maybe it is some kind of drug it must be because at first glance they all seemed to be such normal people young clean shaven looking exactly as if they had come to some sort of celebration but they were shouting something they didn t talk they shouted as though there were deaf people there they screamed and screamed yeah killing killing we re killing the armenians only they didn t shout kill they shouted gurun ermianlary gurun literally means kill or destroy that s how it was i ll continue we hid in a captain s apartment he s an azerbaijani his wife is a tatar we were sitting in their apartment their kids were out in the yard their kids knew a whole lot this was in our part of the building on the third floor when mamma came to and couldn t find lyuda she took papa s hand this was while the looters were stealing things but they didn t pay attention because they were stealing things apparently they had already ceased killing and switched to stealing mamma found the courage to a boy said to my mother where s the gold mamma said he must have been to years old he even looked russian he was so fair skinned but the azerbaijanis from armenia are fair skinned i noticed they were all on the fair side he shouted they were all smashing things and he asks mamma where the gold is we kept our gold in the wardrobe with our important papers in a little black bag we kept everything in there mamma doesn t really like to wear gold she probably never even wore those things from the time they were bought for her they took everything that was lying on the cheval glass mamma thinks that the gold saved us because they threw themselves at the gold and mamma grabbed papa who was trying to breathe they had closed his mouth bound his hands and put a pillow and a chair on his face they had shoved something into his mouth so he would suffocate mamma grabbed him and tore all that stuff off he had something in his mouth he was having trouble breathing his nose was filled with blood mamma grabbed him and started running from the fifth down to the first floor because no one wanted to open their doors to them mamma said that by accident completely by accident that person opened his door he was sleeping and said half awake what s happened he sees that they are bloody mamma said at least go and find out what s happening to my daughters even if they ve burned them or murdered them at least bring the corpses he went looking for us at that moment lyuda was under the bed she says that after they left it seemed that someone was calling her name when he quietly called her she couldn t get out from under the bed she wanted to get out and was calling softly she thought she was shouting but in fact she was either silent or was only talking to herself it just seemed to her that she was shouting when she got out from under the bed everyone was gone and again she thought that she had lost her mind i ll never leave here never to hell with it it just seems that way to me i ll come to eventually but then when everything had settled down stopped that mall brought lyuda down and igor carried me in from outside or first i was brought in then lyuda i don t remember what order it happened in and mamma said listen they re all running around down there shouting something or other and running toward the other building it had more or less calmed down where we were who s dead who s alive we don t know i tried to call my girlfriend i had basically come to mamma says listen let s go upstairs at least get a mattress or something we don t know how long we ll be here maybe they didn t burn everything i don t get it all women have that feeling they want to get something from their homes maybe not everything was taken i tell mamma mamma what do you need any of that for to hell with it we re alive forget the rest of it all of it she says no let s go get at least something maybe we ll leave here spend the night at someone else s mamma went upstairs and their little boy their son alik was standing on the lookout lie was standing there to see if they were coming they only managed to run up there and grab something one time he shouts come back they re coming they didn t have enough time to get a lot mattresses from one apartment a blanket from another mamma got my knitting someone managed to grab our old things the ones we never wore out of the hall someone took father s old coveralls the neighbor his wife mamma and papa marina went with them i was in no condition to leave neither was lyuda we just sat they ran out and we closed the door and just then we hear that the mob is on its way toward our place upstairs they re dragging something again they were going toward the other building maybe over by the school or there was an unfinished building over there people said they were going toward the basement or the unfinished building they could gradually carry everything over there then things more or less calmed down i tried to call my boss later there was more noise we were on the third floor in a one bedroom apartment and a woman lives in the one bedroom place on the second floor asya dallakian she s an old woman retired she wasn t at home at that time she was usually in the country she has a married daughter there and her grandson is in the army she is only very rarely in town she gets her retirement money and the apartment is essentially vacant they started pounding on her door and broke it down she had two or three beds in there something like that she s a to year old woman who really does not even live there probably she had some pots a couple of metal bed frames and mattresses and a television when her grandson came she bought a television they started wrecking everything i started getting sick again i think my god what is going on around here when will this end we turned off the lights and sat as it turns out the people who weren t afraid the ones who knew what was going on knew not to turn off the lights we didn t know but they didn t come to where we were all the same they all knew very well that he was a captain he went out and closed the door and we sat in his apartment his last name was kasumov he s an exserviceman retired works up at the fire station at some plant or other he went out and stood at his door they tell him comrade captain don t worry we won t harm you you re one of us he went upstairs and they say aren t you taking anything from this apartment he says i don t need anything and the women who were standing in the yard we have a basement full of water the women who were standing in the yard saw those guys they left everything they stole on the first floor and ran upstairs again the women threw everything they had time to into the basement to save our property some things were left dirty pillows two or three other things and a rug a guy came downstairs really mad and he says where s the rug i just put it right here they tell him some guy came and took it and went off toward the school he ran off in that direction oh i forgot the most important point when igor picked me up in his arms there were women standing there who saw everything that was going on they just didn t tell me about it for a long time the wife of that military man she didn t want to kill my spirit i was already dead enough later she told me that after they murdered uncle shurik in the third entryway one of them the ringleader apparently a young man said where s the girl who was here and he became furious the woman tells him she came to she didn t know what to say think something up someone carried her off then they would comb the whole house and find me and our whole family so the woman says she came to and went to the basement now our basement is full of water so the whole mob dashes off to the basement to look for me or my corpse they took flashlights they were up to their waists in water water which had been standing there for years and soot and fuel oil they climbed down in there to get me then one of them said there s so much water down there she probably walked and walked and then passed out and died she met her death in the basement that s it we can leave no problem i didn t know that and when i was told i felt worse two times worse a lot worse so they didn t just want to pound me flat something more awful was awaiting me after that we of course didn t want to live in sumgait any longer we really didn t want to go back to our apartment when we moved i went up there and started to quiver and shake all over because i started remembering it all although the neighbors all sobbed it was all so cheap the people who sat in their apartments and didn t help us at a time like that i think that they could have helped i don t think that they were obligated to but they could have helped us because that one woman was able to stop that whole brutal crowd by herself that means they could have too it would have been enough foe one man or women to say what do you think you re doing that s all that would have done it there were apartments in our building not one person said it when i was lying on the ground and all those people were standing on their balconies i didn t hear anyone s voice no one said what are you doing leave her alone mamma even told one of the neighbor women that if it had been an azerbaijani woman in my place they would have dropped a bomb if it would have killed even one armenian they would have stood up for one of their own true they say that our neighbor from the fourth entryway an old sick woman tried to stop the pogrom the azerbaijanis have a custom if a woman takes her scarf and throws it on the ground the men are supposed to stop immediately the old woman from the fourth entryway did that but they stomped her scarf into the ground pushed her off to the side and said if you want to go on living you ll disappear into your apartment so she left that trick didn t work on them even the neighbors who helped us move told me ok fine calm down forget that it happened i said i d only forget it if i told them right then that it had happened to their daughter and if that didn t have any effect on them then i would forget everything too imagine that it happened to your sister and no one did anything anything april yerevan reference the sumgait tragedy pogroms against armenians in soviet azerbaijan volume i eyewitness accounts edited by samuel shahmuradian forward by yelena bonner published by aristide d caratzas ny pages david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
talk.politics.mideast	re was go hezbollah in article c huba cjo news cso uiuc edu eshneken ux cso uiuc edu edward a shnekendorf writes amehdi src honeywell com hossien amehdi writes you know when israelis f thanks to general dynamics fly high in the sky and bomb the hell out of some village in lebanon where civilians including babies and eldery getting killed is that plain murder or what if you arabs wouldn t position guerilla bases in refugee camps artillery batteries atop apartment buildings and munitions dumps in hospitals maybe civilians wouldn t get killed kinda like saddam hussein putting civilians in a military bunker ed who is the you arabs here since you are replying to my article you are assuming that i am an arab well i m not an arab but i think you are brain is full of shit if you really believe what you said the bombardment of civilian and none civilian areas in lebanon by israel is very consistent with its policy of intimidation that is the only policy that has been practiced by the so called only democracy in the middle east i was merley pointing out that the other side is also suffering like i said i m not an arab but if i was say a lebanese you bet i would defende my homeland against any invader by any means
talk.politics.mideast	re was go hezbollah amehdi src honeywell com hossien amehdi writes in article c huba cjo news cso uiuc edu eshneken ux cso uiuc edu edward a shnekendorf writes amehdi src honeywell com hossien amehdi writes you know when israelis f thanks to general dynamics fly high in the sky and bomb the hell out of some village in lebanon where civilians including babies and eldery getting killed is that plain murder or what if you arabs wouldn t position guerilla bases in refugee camps artillery batteries atop apartment buildings and munitions dumps in hospitals maybe civilians wouldn t get killed kinda like saddam hussein putting civilians in a military bunker ed who is the you arabs here since you are replying to my article you are assuming that i am an arab well i m not an arab but i think you are brain is full of shit if you really believe what you said the bombardment of civilian and none civilian areas in lebanon by israel is very consistent with its policy of intimidation that is the only policy that has been practiced by the so called only democracy in the middle east what the hell do you know about israeli policy what gives you the fiat to look into the minds of israeli generals has this policy of intimidation been published somewhere for your information the actions taken by arabs specifically the plo were not uncommon in the lebanon campaign of my brain is full of shit at least i don t look into the minds of others and make israeli policy for them i was merley pointing out that the other side is also suffering like i said i m not an arab but if i was say a lebanese you bet i would defende my homeland against any invader by any means yeah yeah yeah we all suffer it s too bad that civilians get killed but i will blame their arab leaders who put them in positions of danger before i will blame the israelis just like palestinians who send their children into warzones to throw rocks at armed israeli soldiers what irresponsible parents as golda meir said peace will only come when the arabs start loving their children more than they hate the jews ed
talk.politics.mideast	lawsuit against adl it looks like yigal has been busy rtw jewish group sued for passing official information by adrian croft san francisco april reuter nineteen people including the son of former israeli defence minister moshe arens sued the anti defamation league adl on wednesday accusing the jewish group of disclosing confidential official information about them richard hirschhaut director of the san francisco branch of the adl art dealer roy bullock and former policeman tom gerard were also named as defendants in the suit filed in san francisco county superior court the accuse the adl of b nai b rith a group dedicated to fighting anti semitism and the other defendants of secretly gathering information on them including data from state and federal agencies the suit alleges they disclosed the information to others including the governments of israel and south africa in what it alleges was a a massive spying operation the action is a class action suit it was filed on behalf of about anti apartheid activists or opponents of israeli policies about whom the plaintiffs believe the adl bullock and gerard gathered information representatives of the adl in san francisco were not immediately available for comment on wednesday the civil suit is the first legal action arising out of allegations that gerard a former inspector in the san francisco police intelligence unit passed confidential police files on california political activists to a spy ring the fbi and san francisco police are investigating the adl bullock and gerard over the affair and last week searched the adl s offices in san francisco and los angeles the suit alleges invasion of privacy under the civil code of california which prohibits the publication of information obtained from official sources it seeks exemplary damages of at least per person as well as other unspecified damages lawyer pete mccloskey a former congresmen who is representing the plaintiffs said the plaintiffs included arab americans and jews and his wife helen who also had information gathered about her one of the plaintiffs is yigal arens a research scientist at the university of southern california who is a son of the former israeli defence minister arens told the san francisco examiner he had seen a file the adl kept on him in the s presumably because of his criticism of the treatment of palestinians and his position on the israeli occupied territories according to court documents released last week bullock and gerard both kept information on thousands of california political activists in the documents a police investigator said he believed the adl paid bullock for many years to provide information and that both the league and bullock received confidential information from the authorities no criminal charges have yet been filed in the case the adl bullock and gerard have all denied any wrongdoing reuter ac kg cm apn adl lawsuit copyright the associated press all rights reserved by catalina ortiz associated press writer san francisco ap arab americans and critics of israel sued the anti defamation league on wednesday saying it invaded their privacy by illegally gathering information about them through a nationwide spy network the adl a national group dedicated to fighting anti semitism intended to use the data to discredit them because of their political views according to the class action lawsuit filed in san francisco superior court none of us has been guilty of racism or nazism or anti semitism or hate crimes or any of the other isms that the adl claims to protect against none of us is violent or criminal in any way said carol el shaieb an education consultant who develops programs on arab culture the plaintiffs include yigal arens son of former israel defense minister moshe arens the younger arens a research scientist at the university of southern california said the adl kept a file on him in the s presumably because he has criticized israel s treatment of palestinians the adl believes that anyone who is an arab american or speaks politically against israel is at least a closet anti semite arens said the adl has denied any wrongdoing but couldn t comment on the lawsuit because it hasn t reviewed it said a spokesman at the adl s new york headquarters the fbi and local police and prosecutors are investigating allegations that the adl spied on thousands of individuals and hundreds of groups including white supremacist and anti semitic organizations arab americans greenpeace the national association for the advancement of colored people and san francisco public television station kqed some information allegedly came from confidential police and government records according to court documents filed in the probe and the civil lawsuit no charges have been filed in the criminal investigation the lawsuit accuses the adl of violating california s privacy law which forbids the intentional disclosure of personal information not otherwise public from state or federal records the lawsuit claims the adl disclosed the information to persons and entities who had no compelling need to receive it it didn t elaborate defendants include richard hirschhaut director of the adl s office in san francisco he did not immediately return a phone call seeking comment other defendants are san francisco art dealer roy bullock an alleged adl informant over the past four decades and former police officer tom gerard gerard allegedly tapped into law enforcement and government computers and passed information on to bullock gerard who has retired from the police force has moved to the philippines bullock s lawyer richard breakstone said he could not comment on the lawsuit because he had not yet studied it upwe adl sued for allegedly spying on u s residents san francisco upi a group of california residents filed suit wednesday charging the anti defamation league of b nai brith with violating their privacy by spying on them for the israeli and south african governments the class action suit filed in san francisco superior court charges the adl and its leadership conspired with a local police official to obtain information on outspoken opponents of israeli policies towards the occupied territories and south africa s apartheid policy the adl refused to comment on the suit the suit also took aim at two top local adl officials and retired san francicso police officer tom gerard claiming they violated privacy guarantees in the state constitution and violated state confidentiality laws according to the suit gerard helped the adl obtain access to confidential files in law enforcement and government computers information from these files were passed to the foreign governments the suit charges the whole concept of an organized collection of information based on political viewpoints and using government agencies as a source of information is absolutely repugnant said former rep pete mccloskey who is representing the plaintiffs the adl s information gathering network was revealed publicly last week when the san francisco district attorney s office released documents indicating the group had spied on people and political and ethnic groups for more than years my understanding is that they the adl consider all activity that is in some sense opposed to israel or israeli action to be part of their responsbility to investigate said arens a research scientist at the university of southern california the adl believes that anyone who is arab american or speaks politically against israel is at least a closet anti semite the fbi and the district attorney s office have been investigating the operation for four months the plaintiffs in the case include arens the son of former israeli defense minister moshe arens in a press release the plaintiffs said the alleged spying had damaged them psychologically and economically and accused the adl of trying to interfere with their freedom of speech
talk.politics.mideast	re water on the brain was re israeli expansion lust i guess hasan finally revealed the source of his claim that israel diverted water from lebanon his imagination alan h stein astein israel nysernet org
talk.politics.mideast	rules of engagement was israelis murdered in march in apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hasan mcrcim mcgill edu wrote in article apr frej teknikum uu se flax frej teknikum uu se jonas flygare writes in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes in article flax apr frej teknikum uu se flax frej teknikum uu se jonas flygare writes first my above statement doesnot say that the existence of israeli citizens in the wb revoke their right of life but it says the israeli occupation of the wb revoke the right of life for some most its citizens basically revokes the right of for its military men clearly occupation is an undeclared war during war attacks against military targets are fully legitimate i d like you to tell me in your own words who the military are wrt israel then in uniform or not on duty or off duty soldier to be or not that is since it s compulsory one might regard any israeli as a legit target using that definition in uniform or not doesnot make a difference if the person is in army on duty or off duty doesnot matter if the army man was on duty or on a vacation week soldier to be or not sure i meant only military men just trying to get this clear so please bear with me as far as i can tell you re proposing the following rules of engagement between israel and the palestinean resistance please feel revise this preliminary draft as necessary israeli military personnel are fair game at any time in uniform or out on duty or off in practice since any male or female israeli of military age may be off duty military all but young children are acceptable targets since the existence of israel constitutes indication of hostile intent no further provocation is required to avoid inpermissable violations of the rights of non combatant palestineans israeli forces must not engage palestineans without positive identification as military personnel clear indication of aggressive intent and a clear field of fire a positive identification may be assured by either checking for palestinean military uniform by posession of exclusively military armament ie t mbts or mig aircraft or self identification either verbal or documentary note that dual use military civilian weaponry such as hand grenades ak rifles and rpg launchers do not constitute positive military identification and require closer inspection such as document checks b aggressive intent as distinct from merely hostile intent which is the normal condition may be assured by not less than three rounds of incoming fire separated by intervals of not less than ten seconds between rounds note that a single burst of automatic weapon fire counds as one round as does a volley of rocket fire from more than one source as noted above dual use weaponry may not be assumed to originate from military personnel and thus do not justify armed response c a clear field of fire can be guaranteed by making a positive military identification of all personnel in the target area of the weapons to be used note that aggressive intent need not be proven for all possible targets thus if iaf aircraft are attacked by a sam crew it is not necessary to check the papers of each crew member so long as none are obviously civilians as indicated for instance by the posession of uniquely civilian weaponry such as stones axes and molotov coctails since it is often difficult for iaf elements to land and make the necessary checks ground forces should first screen prospective strike areas before agm fire for acm purposes a cockpit to cockpit pass within meters is usually sufficient for this purpose but may be repeated if necessary d c sessions speaking for myself note new network address dcs witsend tnet com author and everything else of tmail dos mail news shell
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli expansion lust in article spam maths adelaide edu au jaskew spam maths adelaide edu au joseph askew writes in article apr das harvard edu adam endor uucp adam shostack writes in article apr bnr ca zbib bnr ca writes imho it does not really matter who started any individual battle within the arabs isreal war context the real question is who what started the war does anyone have any doubts it was the creation of israel on arab land huh a war was started when several armies invaded israel vowing to drive the jews into the sea most jews wanted to live in peace and the arabs who stayed in israel were granted citizenship it depends entirely on how you define war the actual fighting largely predates the arab invasions after all deir yassin happened in midapril well before the arab invasion as i have said elsewhere lt col lorch has said that hagana forces were fighting well before the arabs invaded as in months before as for jews wanting to live in peace that to is entirely arguable i think it is easy enough to show that the labour party leadership had no such intention at all as for the arabs who stayed don t you mean those who were not expelled even some of those who did stay were not granted citizenship but expelled after the fighting had stopped anyway joseph askew how do you define war do seiges and constant attacks on villiages count as acts of war or is that only when the jews do them january arab liberation army attacks kfar szold men attack kfar etzion miles south of jerusalem after cutting off the supply lines to it attacks on yehiam western galilee and kibbutz tirat tzvi by mid march the jewish settlements in the negev had been cut off from land links with the rest of the jewish population the etzion group of villiages near hebron had been cut off while members of a convoy trying to supply yehiam were slaughtered cutting off the villiage jerusalem was under seige being cut off from its supply route from tel aviv the bombed out supply trucks have been left on the side of that road to this day in memoriam by this time jews had been killed of course this isn t war since it s only the arabs attacking just like last week when the fatah launched katyusha rockets against northern israel where does uprising end and war begin will it still be intifadah when the plo brings in tanks joseph askew gauche and proud in the autumn stillness see the pleiades jaskew spam maths adelaide edu remote in thorny deserts fell the grief disclaimer sue see if i care north of our tents the sky must end somwhere actually i rather like brenda beyond the pale the river murmurs on amir
talk.politics.mideast	re was go hezbollah from article apr src honeywell com by amehdi src honeywell com hossien amehdi in article c huba cjo news cso uiuc edu eshneken ux cso uiuc edu edward a shnekendorf writes amehdi src honeywell com hossien amehdi writes you know when israelis f thanks to general dynamics fly high in the sky and bomb the hell out of some village in lebanon where civilians including babies and eldery getting killed is that plain murder or what if you arabs wouldn t position guerilla bases in refugee camps artillery batteries atop apartment buildings and munitions dumps in hospitals maybe civilians wouldn t get killed kinda like saddam hussein putting civilians in a military bunker ed who is the you arabs here since you are replying to my article you are assuming that i am an arab well i m not an arab but i think you are brain is full of shit if you really believe what you said the bombardment of civilian and none civilian areas in lebanon by israel is very consistent with its policy of intimidation that is the only policy that has been practiced by the so called only democracy in the middle east i was merley pointing out that the other side is also suffering like i said i m not an arab but if i was say a lebanese you bet i would defende my homeland against any invader by any means tell me then would you also fight the syrians in lebanon oh no of course not they would be your brothers and you would tell that you invited them avi
talk.politics.mideast	re go hezbollah in article apr ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu brad hernlem writes lebanese resistance forces detonated a bomb under an israeli occupation patrol in lebanese territory two days ago three soldiers were killed and two wounded in retaliation israeli and israeli backed forces wounded civilians by bombarding several lebanese villages ironically the israeli government justifies its occupation in lebanon by claiming that it is necessary to prevent such bombardments of israeli villages congratulations to the brave men of the lebanese resistance with every israeli son that you place in the grave you are underlining the moral bankruptcy of israel s occupation and drawing attention to the israeli government s policy of reckless disregard for civilian life brad hernlem hernlem chess ncsu edu ahhh of course israeli morality pales in the face of charming events like the string of plo run skyjackings in the mid s remember those twa jokes and not to forget the achille lauro and however many airline bombings they have committed not to mention bombings on the streets of israel it s gotten to a point where children are told not to go near any bags or containers whose origins they don t know because they could be bombs or last weeks katyusha rocket attack on northern israel by fatah those wonderful mainstream moderates with whom israel is attempting to negotiate let s not forget the fact that more palestinians are killed by palestinians than by israelis ahh yes those charming humanitarian death squads i ve actually seen a videotape of an interrogation dsee the documentary deadly currents very neutral and balanced seriously it was rather inquisition esque essentially to prove his loyalty to the cause of whichever group it was that was interogating him he had to turn in someone else or else face death in one of the many fun filled ways that the death squads love so much beatings dismemberment acid pouring melted plastic on the face of the guilty party and of course beheading always my favorite did you catch the photos in the washington post a while back the execution of a collaborator photos one palestinian leading another at gunpoint the collaborator on his knees the gun pointed at his temple the executioner standing on the corpse of the collaborator shouting about how this is what happens to collaborators wonderful justice system and lots of regard for human rights remember black september ok so they just tried to take over jordan big deal i m rambling now but are you getting what i m saying amir
talk.politics.mideast	re enough freeman bashing was no free man propaganda machine freemanwith blood greetings from israel pgf cunixb cc columbia edu peter garfiel freeman writes peter i believe this is your most succinct post to date since you have nothing to say you say nothing it s brilliant did you think of this all by yourself marc some people are so narrow minded they can see through a crack in a door with both eyes my opinions should be yours my employer has no opinions
talk.politics.mideast	re deriving pleasure from death brad hernlem writes congratulations to the brave men of the lebanese resistance with every israeli son that you place in the grave you are underlining the moral bankruptcy of israel s occupation and drawing attention to the israeli government s policy of reckless disregard for civilian life brad hernlem hernlem chess ncsu edu to which mark ira kaufman responds your delight in the death of human beings says more about you than anything that i could say mark were you one of the millions of americans cheering the slaughter of iraqi civilians by us forces in your comment could also apply to all of them by the way i do not applaud the killing of any human being including prisoners sentenced to death by our illustrious justice department peace marc some people are so narrow minded they can see through a crack in a door with both eyes my opinions should be yours my employer has no opinions
talk.politics.mideast	re was go hezbollah stssdxb st unocal com dorin baru writes even the most extemist one sided jewish israeli postings with which i certainly disagree did not openly back plain murder you do the lebanese resistance you are talking about is a bunch of lebanese farmers who detonate bombs after work or is an organized entity of not only lebanese well trained mercenaries i do not know just curious i guess you also back the killings of hundreds of marines in beirut right what kind of resistance movement killed jewish attlets in munich you liked it didn t you you posted some other garbage before so at least you seem to be consistent dorin dorin let s not forget that the soldiers were killed not murdered the distinction is not trivial murder happens to innocent people not people whose line of work is to kill or be killed it just so happened that these soldiers in the line of duty were killed by the opposition and resistance is different from terrorism certainly the athletes in munich were victims of terrorists though some might call them freedom fighters their deaths cannot be compared to those of soldiers who are killed by resistance fighters don t forget that it was the french resistance to the nazi occupying forces which eventually succeeded in driving out the hostile occupiers in wwii diplomacy has not worked with israel and the lebanese people are tired of being occupied they are now turning to the only option they see as viable don t forget that it worked in driving out the us marc some people are so narrow minded they can see through a crack in a door with both eyes my opinions should be yours my employer has no opinions
talk.politics.mideast	re was go hezbollah hernlem chess ncsu edu brad hernlem writes i just thought that i would make it clear in case you are not familiar with my past postings on this subject i do not condone attacks on civilians hezbollah and other lebanese resistance fighters are skilled at precision bombing of sla and israeli targets i find such methods to be far more restrained and responsible than the israeli method of shelling and bombing villages with the hope that a hezbollah member will be killed along with the civilians murdered i do not consider the killing of combatants to be murder soldiers are trained to die for their country three idf soldiers did their duty the other day these men need not have died if their government had kept them on israeli soil is there any israeli a civilian in your opinion now i do not condone myself bombing villages any kind of villages but you claim these are villages with civilians and iraelis claim they are camps filled with terrorists you claim that israelis shell the villages with the hope of finding a terrorist or so if they kill one fine if not too bad civilians die right i am not so sure as somebody wrote saddam hussein had no problems using civilians in disgusting manner and he also claimed civilians murdered let me ask you isn t there at least a slight chance that you not only and the question is very general no insult are doing a similar type of propaganda in respect to civilians in southern lebanon now a lot people who post here consider israeli soil kind of mediteranean sea how do you define israeli soil from what you say if you do not clearly recognize the state of israel you condone killing israelis anywhere dorin are you aware that the idf sent helicopters and gun boats up the coast of lebanon the other day and rocketted a palestinian refugee north of beirut perhaps i should ask you what qualifies a person for murder i do not know what was the pupose of the action you describe if it was to kill civilians i doubt i certainly do not condone it if civilians were killed i do not condone it that they are palestinian that they are children and may grow up to be terrorists that they are female and may give birth to little terrorists brad hernlem hernlem chess ncsu edu mr hernlem it was you not me who was showing a huge satisfaction for israelis human beings by most standards don t know about your standards killed if you ask me those questions i will have no problem answering not with a question as you did no nobody is qualified candidate for murder nothing justifies murder i have the feeling that you may be able yourself to make similar statements maybe after eliminating all israelis jews am i wrong now tell me did you also condone saddam s scuds on israeli soldiers in let s say tel aviv from what i understand a lot of palestineans cheered what does it show it does not qualify for freedom fighting to me but again i may be wrong and the jewish controlled media distorted the information and i am just an ignorant victim of the media like most of us dorin
talk.politics.mideast	re was go hezbollah in article c ifh q news cso uiuc edu eshneken ux cso uiuc edu edward a shnekendorf writes what the hell do you know about israeli policy what gives you the fiat to look into the minds of israeli generals has this policy of intimidation been published somewhere for your information the actions taken by arabs specifically the plo were not uncommon in the lebanon campaign of my brain is full of shit at least i don t look into the minds of others and make israeli policy for them deleted i am not in the business of reading minds however in this case it would not be necessary israelis top leaders in the past and present always come across as arrogant with their tough talks trying to intimidate the arabs the way i see it israelis and arabs have not been able to achieve peace after almost years of fighting because of the following two major reasons arab governments are not really representative of their people currently most of their leaders are stupid and or not independent and or dictators israeli government is arrogant and none comprising
talk.politics.mideast	heil hernlem in article apr ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu brad hernlem writes lebanese resistance forces detonated a bomb under an israeli occupation patrol in lebanese territory two days ago three soldiers were killed and two wounded in retaliation israeli and israeli backed forces wounded civilians by bombarding several lebanese villages ironically the israeli government justifies its occupation in lebanon by claiming that it is necessary to prevent such bombardments of israeli villages congratulations to the brave men of the lebanese resistance with every israeli son that you place in the grave you are underlining the moral bankruptcy of israel s occupation and drawing attention to the israeli government s policy of reckless disregard for civilian life brad hernlem hernlem chess ncsu edu very nice three people are murdered and bradly is overjoyed when i hear about deaths in the middle east be it jewish or arab deaths i feel sadness and only hope that soon this all stops apparently my view point is not acceptable to people like you bradly hernlem you disgust me harry
talk.politics.mideast	re turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece armenia azeris from article apr iastate edu by tankut iastate edu sabri t atan well panos mr tamamidis the way you put it it is only the turks who bear the responsibility of the things happening today that is hard to believe for somebody trying to be objective when it comes to conflicts like our countries having you cannot blame one side only there always are bad guys on both sides what were you doing on anatolia after the ww anyway do you think it was your right to be there there were a couple millions of greeks living in asia minor until someone had to protect them if not us who i am not saying that conflicts started with that it is only not one side being the aggressive and the ither always suffering it is sad that we both still are not trying to compromise i remember the action of the turkish government by removing the visa requirement for greeks to come to turkey i thought it was a positive attempt to make the relations better compromise on what the invasion of cyprus the involment of turkey in greek politics the refusal of turkey to accept miles of territorial waters as stated by international law the properties of the greeks of konstantinople the ownership of the islands in the greek lake sorry aegean there are some things on which there can not be a compromise the greeks i mentioned who wouldn t talk to me are educated people they have never met me but they know i am bad person because i am from turkey politics is not my business and it is not the business of most of the turks when it comes to individuals why the hatred any person who supports the policies of the turkish goverment directly or indirecly is a bad person it is not your nationality that makes you bad it is your support of the actions of your goverment that make you bad people do not hate you because of who you are but because of what you are you are a supporter of the policies of the turkish goverment and as a such you must pay the price so that makes me think that there is some kind of brainwashing going on in greece after all why would an educated person treat every person from a nation the same way can you tell me about your history books and things you learn about greek turkish encounters during your schooling take it easy tankut atan tankut iastate edu achtung baby you do not need brainwashing to turn people against the turks just talk to greeks arabs slavs kurds and all other people who had the luck to be under turkish occupation they will talk to you about murders rapes distruction you do not learn about turks from history books you learn about them from people who experienced first hand turkish friendliness napoleon
talk.politics.mideast	reasons was re was go hezbollah hossien amehdi writes i am not in the business of reading minds however in this case it would not be necessary israelis top leaders in the past and present always come across as arrogant with their tough talks trying to intimidate the arabs the way i see it israelis and arabs have not been able to achieve peace after almost years of fighting because of the following two major reasons arab governments are not really representative of their people currently most of their leaders are stupid and or not independent and or dictators israeli government is arrogant and none comprising it s not relevant whether i agree with you or not there is some reasonable thought in what you say here an i appreciate your point however i would make remarks you forgot about hate and this is not only at government level it s not only arab governments now about taugh talk and arrogance we are adults aren t we do you listen to tough talk of american politicians or switch the channel i would rather be intimidated by some dummy talking tough then by a bomb ready to blow under my seat in b dorin
talk.politics.mideast	re enough freeman bashing was no free man propaganda machine freemanwith blood greetings from israel marc a afifi mafifi eis calstate edu wrote pgf cunixb cc columbia edu peter garfiel freeman writes peter i believe this is your most succinct post to date since you have nothing to say you say nothing it s brilliant did you think of this all by yourself marc some people are so narrow minded they can see through a crack in a door with both eyes my opinions should be yours my employer has no opinions an open letter to marc afifi dear marc i believe that you are wrong about mr freeman he has written in a style that raises the level of posts on this board if you just don t seem to get it i believe that it is more of a reflection of you and your abilities than of him his posts contain substance and and he defends his positions well having said this i would like to ask in general for people on this board to realize that if they don t agree with the substance of posts then they should respond to the substance or lack of of the posts rather than attack the author of the posts when one has to resort to attacking a poster rather than what he she has written one can see that that person does not have the ability to make a coherent argument concerning the post peace danny
talk.politics.mideast	re mossad unchecked girls faint in masse in egypt in apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes in article eldar sfu ca eldar fraser sfu ca danny eldar writes i just heard it on the radio cknw in vancouver bc girls are fainting in masse in egypt nobody knows why but the movement started in nothern egypt and spread throught all egypt i think that the mossad after the obvious involvement in wtc bombing tries to reestablish its reputation what better way than making egyptian schhol girls go bezerk maybe hassan will share the light on this i am happy to annouce tii s second positive identifiaction congragulations danny hasan as one who was born in quebec and worked in montreal i feel i must defend the reputation of mcgill university it is a fine old creditable institution of higher learning thus i can only assume that some under graduate student left his her terminal on line and the janitor has been getting access to it reb
talk.politics.mideast	re how many israeli soldiers does it take to kill a yr old child well i tried not to get involved in this never ending talk but man i really got hot about this bullshit in article apr bernina ethz ch nadeem p igp ethz ch writes hakim abu ahmed cu cleveland freenet edu wrote in reply to hm cs brown edu s message zbib bnr ca sam zbib writes steel hal gnu ai mit edu nick steel writes q how many occupying israeli soldiers terrorists does it take to kill a year old native child a four two fasten his arms one shoots in the face and one writes up a false report making stupid and idiot jokes about soliders will not bring anything not mentioning peace or agreement i also know several tens of jokes about arabs palestinians but i do not post them to usenet anyway not to this newsgroup since i don t think i will achieve any target but making other parts furious and this is not my target if this is your target well that tells a lot about you can nick steel provide documentation for this alleged incident did you really think he is talking about something realistic harry you must be kidding this is not a single incident now this has become a daily life practice in gazza if you mean the killing of children by armed soldiers yeah well sometimes when cowards put their children and wives in the front line so their enemy cannot do anything well maybe in those cases you have no better thing to do to save your life than shooting and if parents want their children alive i think it would be better that before they get out to throw stones molotov botlles or when they come to kill soliders to keep their children in the houses if you are objecting the number of occupying israeli soldiers terrorists or the way they do it then look in the dictionary at the word terrorism it says nu the use of threats of violence and violence esp for political purposes it sounds more like your guys i caan assure you that they do worse than that just as yeah well i guess you were in there and you know it all example children were killed this month of ramadhan two of them by military vehicules an other similar incident by vehicule was the one of feb ramadhan where thee military truck on purpose hit a passenger where from do you know that it was on purpose personally i didn t hear about this case although i don t deny it but how can anybody besides the person itself can say it was on purpose car where the victims were a year girl safa sail bisharat and saamud riyad a weeks old babygirl the oldd raajij rouhy yeah sure the truck driver looked in the car with his zionist equipment of detecting palestinian children and then he thought to himself hey there is a year and weeks girls in the car why won t i make an accident and kill the enemy maximum i will die too in the crash but what do i care hakim actually if can remember correctly was it not reported and even on camera some time during the israeli invasion of lebanon or when the itifada began that cnn caught regular uniformed israeli soldiers breaking the arms of some arab youngsters in a very professional and brutal manner someone please give full details if they can remember this is one of the few well it was about years ago in the intifada the fact that you can t remember the time prooves how much do you care about it i do not think that what the soliders did was correct but i will not agree that they were breaking their arms i saw that film and unlike in the usa it was broadcasted entirely not long ago in a talk show and at the end the arm broken guys got up and walked and used their arms very good they guy who did it was interviewed and he said he did it because the terrorist or whatever he was refused to take his orders and spitted in his face what ammount of truth exist in this statement i cannot tell you because i wasn t there but the guy who did it was in prison if it makes you any good occassions on which such a scene has been transmitted to the west and in the usa it caused uproar and was one of the factors that has significantly changed the preception of the israeli army s role in the mid east no it didn t the israeli army is still the most important army in the midlle east it is still the only human army as much as an army can be human to any american who will claim the opposite i can only remember the cnn broadcasting of the american solider who beat a somalian boy it was very cruel to see but i won t say because of this that the american army is cruel so there is proof for you it is obvious that is a systematic policy of the israelis which must be occurring on a massive scale behind the scenes some kind of proof obvious where from if you say it is behind the scenes how do you know about it nadeem i just wanted to show how much garbadge one can say without knowing anything about what he says and living a life far away from the place he talks about livian segal o vm cms jhsegall weizmann weizmann ac il unix jhsegal wiscon weizmann ac il
talk.politics.mideast	re turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece armenia azeris finaid auvm american edu writes mr tamamidis before repling your claims i suggest you be kind to individuals who are trying to make some points abouts human rights discriminations and unequal treatment of turkish minority in greece i want the world know how bad you treat these people you will deny anything i say but it does not make any difrence because i will write things that i saw with my eyes you prove yourself prejudice by saying free insurance school etc do you greeks only give these things to turkish minority or everybody has rights to get them your words even discriminate these people you think that you are giving big favor to these people by giving these thing that in reality they get nothing no i do not thing we are doing them a favor i have simply stated that they are not treated as a second class citizens that was my point i fail to see how my words show discrimination and what do you mean that they do not get nothing is for example helth insurance food and tuition nothing if you do not know unhuman practices that are being conducted by the government of the greece i suggest that you investigate to see the facts then we can discuss about the most basic human rights like fredom of religion fredom of press of turkish minority ethnic cleansing of all turks in greece fredom of right to have property without government intervention fredom of right to vote to choose your community leaders how greek government encourages people to destroy religious places houses farms schools for turkish minority then forcing them to go to turkey without anything with them i m sorry but i cannot see any logical order in the above argument before i conclude my writing let me point out how greeks are treated in turkey we do not consider them greek minority instead we consider a part of our society what part exactly is this one the people cannot even sell their property if they want to leave turkey the patriarch could not get a permision to renovate some buildings for decades it needed a special agreement between the two goverments for this talk about a part of the society why has the size of the greek community reduced to old people and priests then there is no difference among people in turkey yeah you bet all big businesses belong to greeks in turkey and we are proud to have them unlike the greece which tries to destroy turkish minority we encourage all minorities in turkey to be a part of turkish society you are far off from the reality aykut atalay atakan panos tamamidis
talk.politics.mideast	turkish government agents on usenet lie through their teeth in revision of history zuma uucp as posted by turkish government agents under the guise of sera zuma uucp serdar argic lie in response to article apr urartu sdpa org hla urartu sdpa org and scribed orhan gunduz is blown up gunduz receives an ultimatum either he gives up his honorary position or he will be executed he refuses responsibility is claimed by jcag and sdpa may cambridge massachusetts orhan gunduz the turkish honorary consul in boston would not bow to the armenian terrorist ultimatum that he give up his title of honorary consul now he is attacked and murdered in cold blood president reagan orders an all out manhunt to no avail an eye witness who gave a description of the murderer is shot down he survives but falls silent one of the most revolting triumphs in the senseless mindless history of armenian terrorism such a murder brings absolutely nothing except an ego boost for the murderer within the armenian terrorist underworld which is already wallowing in self satisfaction were you involved in the murder of sarik ariyak december sydney two nazi armenians massacre sarik ariyak and his bodyguard engin sever jcag and sdpa claim responsibility mr turkish governmental agent prove that the sdpa even existed in or go ahead provide us the newspaper accounts of the assassinations and show us the letters sdpa the turkish government is good at excising text from their references let s see how good thay are at adding text to verifiable newspaper accounts the turkish government can t support any of their anti armenian claims as typified in the above scribed garbage that government continues to make false and libelous charges for they have no recourse left after having made fools out of through their attempt at a systematic campaign at denying and covering up the turkish genocide of the armenians just like a dog barking at a moving bus it barks jumps yells until the bus stops at which point it just walks away such will be with this posting turkish agents level the most ridiculous charges and when brought to answer they are silent like the dog after the bus stops the turkish government feels it can funnel a heightened state of ultra nationalism existing in turkey today onto usenet and convince people via its revisionist myopic and incidental view of themselves and their place in the world the resulting inability to address armenian and greek refutations of turkey s re write of history is to refer to me as a terrorist and worse claim as part of the record i took responsibility for the murder of people what a pack of raging fools blinded by anti armenian fascism it s too bad the socialization policies of the republic of turkey requires it to always find non turks to de humanize such will be their downfall david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
talk.politics.mideast	re turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece armenia azeris in article c jhj f j news cso uiuc edu ptg uxa cso uiuc edu panos tamamidis writes stuff deleted i am not saying that conflicts started with that it is only not one side being the aggressive and the ither always suffering it is sad that we both still are not trying to compromise i remember the action of the turkish government by removing the visa requirement for greeks to come to turkey i thought it was a positive attempt to make the relations better i thought it was a smart move to receive more money from greek tourists i bet that this week there should be about tourists from greece in turkey each one will leave at least so go and figure what this means to your economy if you had kept the visa requirement how many greeks would bother to visit turkey smart indeed if what you re saying is true greeks who visit are happy the turkish merchants are happy who is harmed no one so not only was it a smart move it was also a good move for it adds to the happiness of greeks per week and however many turkish merchants they interact with one simple move in the paperwork arena lotsa happy people of both nationalities just and observation cheers bm stuff deleted
talk.politics.mideast	re how many israeli soldiers does it take to kill a yr old child in article qhv bagel cs huji ac il ranen falafel cs huji ac il ranen goren writes q how many nick steel s does it take to twist any truth around a only one and thank god there s only one ranen absolutely not true there are lots of them livian segal o vm cms jhsegall weizmann weizmann ac il unix jhsegal wiscon weizmann ac il
talk.politics.mideast	pr campaign against iran pbs frontline there have been a number of articles on the pbs frontline program about iranian bomb here is my on this and related subjects one is curious to know the real reasons behind this and related public relations campaign about iran in recent months these include attempts to implicate iran in the bombing of the new york trade center despite great efforts in this direction they have not succeeded in this they however have indirectly created the impression that iran is behind the rise of fundamentalist islamic movements and thus are indirectly implicated in this matter public statements by the secretary of state christoffer and other official sources regarding iran being a terrorist and outlaw state and finally the recent broadcast of the frontline program i suspect that this pr campaign against iran will continue and perhaps intensify why this increased pressure on iran a number of factors may have been behind this these include the rise of islamic movements in north africa and radical hamas movement in the israeli occupied territories this movement is basically anti western and is not necessarily fueled by iran the cause for accelerated pace of this movement is probably the gulf war which sought to return colonial shieks and amirs to their throne in the name of democracy and freedom also the obvious support of algerian military coup against the democratically elected algerian islamic front which clearly exposed the democracy myth a further cause of this may be the daily broadcast of the news on the slaughter of bosnian moslems possible future implications of this movement in saudi arabia and other us client states and endangerment of the cheap oil sources from this region a need to create an enemy as an excuse for huge defense expenditures this has become necessary after the demise of soveit union the recent pr campaign against iran however seems to be directed from israel rather than washington there is no fundamental conflict of interest between iran and the us and in my opinion it is in the interest of both countries to affect reestablishment of normal and friendly relations this may have a moderating effect on the rise of radical movements within the islamic world and iran jamshid
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli expansion lust in a previous article hasan mcrcim mcgill edu m hasan alhafez says so the wars of karama and were all started by arabs the wars of were definitely started by the arabs the war in was instigated by the arabs who continually murdered israeli children with their rocket attacks israel was only trying to stop this last what the heck are you talking about with karama there was no war in steve internet aa freenet carleton ca fidonet mossad qube ocunix on ca my opinions are not associated with anything including my head
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli expansion lust in a previous article zbib bnr ca sam zbib says imho it does not really matter who started any individual battle within the arabs isreal war context the real question is who what started the war does anyone have any doubts it was the creation of israel on arab land where the hell do you get off calling it arab land jews have been living there for a long time jews didn t just start arriving in they ve been living there for thousands of years except for periods when they were expelled but they always returned home steve internet aa freenet carleton ca fidonet mossad qube ocunix on ca my opinions are not associated with anything including my head
talk.politics.mideast	dir yassin was re no free man propaganda machine freeman with blood greetings from israel in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes check menahem begin dairies published book you ll find accounts of the massacres there including deir yassen though with the numbers of massacred men children and women are greatly minimized as per request of hasan from the revolt by menachem begin dell publishing ny pp apart from the military aspect there is a moral aspect to the story of dir yassin at that village whose name was publicized throughout the world both sides suffered heavy casualties we had four killed and nearly forty wounded the number of casualties was nearly forty percent of the total number of the attackers the arab troops suffered casualties neraly three times as heavy the fighting was thus very severe yet the hostile propaganda disseminated throughout the world deliberately ignored the fact that the civilian population of dir yassin was actually given a warning by us before the battle began one of our tenders carrying a loud speaker was stationed at the entrance to the village and it exhorted in arabic all women children and aged to leave their houses and to take shelter on the slopes of the hill by giving this humane warning our fighters threw away the element of complete surprise and thus increased their own risk in the ensuing battle a substantial number of the inhabitants obeyed the warning and they were unhurt a few did not leave their stone houses perhaps because of the confusion the fire of the enemy was murderous to which the number of our casualties bears eloquent testimony our men were compelled to fight for every house to overcome the enemy they used large numbers of hand grenades and the civilians who had disregarded our warnings suffered inevitable casualties the education which we gave our soldiers throughout the years of revolt was based on the observance of the traditional laws of war we never broke them unless the enemy first did so and thus forced us in accordance with the accepted custom of war to apply reprisals i am convinced too that our officers and men wished to avoid a single unnecessary casualty in the dir yassin battle but those who throw stones of denunciation at the conquerors of dir yassin would do well not to don the cloak of hypocrisy in connection with the capture of dir yassin the jewish agency found it necessary to send a letter of apology to abdullah whom mr ben gurion at a moment of great political emotion called the wise ruler who seeks the good of his people and this country the wise ruler whose mercenary forces demolished gush etzion and flung the bodies of its heroic defenders to birds of prey replied with feudal superciliousness he rejected the apology and replied that the jews were all to blame and that he did not believe in the existence of dissidents throughout the arab world and the world at large a wave of lying propaganda was let loose about jewish attrocities the enemy propaganda was designed to besmirch our name in the result it helped us panic overwhelmed the arabs of eretz israel kolonia village which had previously repulsed every attack of the haganah was evacuated overnight and fell without further fighting beit iksa was also evacuated these two places overlooked the main road and their fall together with the capture of kastel by the haganah made it possible to keep open the road to jerusalem in the rest of the country too the arabs began to flee in terror even before they clashed with jewish forces not what happened at dir yassin but what was invented about dir yassin helped to carve the way to our decisive victories on the battlefield the legend of dir yassin helped us in particular in the saving of tiberias and the conquest of haifa a footnote from the revolt pp to counteract the loss of dir yassin a village of strategic importance arab headquarters at ramallah broadcast a crude atrocity story alleging a massacre by irgun troops of women and children in the village certain jewish officials fearing the irgun men as political rivals seized upon this arab gruel propaganda to smear the irgun an eminent rabbi was induced to reprimand the irgun before he had time to sift the truth out of evil however good came this arab propaganda spread a legend of terror amongst arabs and arab troops who were seized with panic at the mention of irgun soldiers the legend was worth half a dozen battalions to the forces of israel the dir yassin massacre lie is still propagated by jew haters all over the world in reference to denunciation of dir yassin by fellow jews
talk.politics.mideast	re from israeli press madness this post has all the earmarks of a form program where the user types in a nationality or ethnicity and it fills it in in certain places in the story if this is true i condemn it if it s a fabrication then the posters have horrible morals and should be despised by everyone on tpm who values truth jesse
talk.politics.mideast	center for anit israel propaganda the center for policy research writes from the israeli press hadashot march the israeli police department announced on the evening of friday march that it is calling upon jewish israeli citizens with gun permits to carry them at all times so as to contribute to their security and that of their surroundings considering all the murders of innocent israelis at the hands of arab death merchants i see nothing wrong with the advice ha aretz march yehoshua matza likud chair of the knesset interior committee stated that he intends to demand that the police department make it clear to the public that anyone who wounds or kills non jewish terrorists will not be put on trial as usual the bias of the center for policy research echoes through this newsgroup here we have an enraged likudnik who is venting his spleen and you portray it as if this is going to become policy you don t say what the response to matza s suggestion was do do not mention whether he was refering to terrorists caught in the act which could be a clear cut case of self defence would you care to elaborate on this or was this all you wanted to say on the matter why don t you give up this center for policy research crap and just post your biases without trying to legitimize them with a pompous name ha aretz march today a private security firm and units from the idf southern command will begin installation of four magnetic gates in the gaza strip as an additional stage in the upgrading of security measures in the strip the gates will aid in the searching of non jewish gaza residents as they leave for work in israel they can be used to reveal the presence of knives axes weapons and other sharp objects in addition to the gates which will be operated by a private civilian company large quantities of magnetic card reading devices are being brought to the inspection points to facilitate the reading of the magnetic cards these non jewish workers must carry a laudable precaution every single thing you post about israel is posted to portray israel as negatively as you can deliberate omissions are an integral part of the shtick and it s not only the incidents that you do not mention but even the stories you do post are fraught with omissions which change the entire meaning the absurdity of your respectable name cannot hide your bias in your effort to portray israel in an unfavorable light you have accomplished nothing except to prove that a respectable sounding label like the center for policy research is nothing but a smoke screen for someone with a heavily biased attitude against israel and the need to vent it you this center for policy research stuff is nonsense
talk.politics.mideast	re from israeli press madness in article c n z dq murdoch acc virginia edu jar e faraday clas virginia edu virginia s gentleman writes this post has all the earmarks of a form program where the user types in a nationality or ethnicity and it fills it in in certain places in the story if this is true i condemn it if it s a fabrication then the posters have horrible morals and should be despised by everyone on tpm who values truth jesse agreed harry
talk.politics.mideast	re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes in article apr urartu sdpa org dbd urartu sdpa org david davidian writes armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes ermenistan kasiniyor let me translate for everyone else before the public traslation service gets into it armenia is getting itchy esin
talk.politics.mideast	center for anti israel propaganda the center for policy research writes from the israeli press hadashot march the israeli police department announced on the evening of friday march that it is calling upon jewish israeli citizens with gun permits to carry them at all times so as to contribute to their security and that of their surroundings considering all the murders of innocent israelis at the hands of arab death merchants i see nothing wrong with the advice ha aretz march yehoshua matza likud chair of the knesset interior committee stated that he intends to demand that the police department make it clear to the public that anyone who wounds or kills non jewish terrorists will not be put on trial as usual the bias of the center for policy research echoes through this newsgroup here we have an enraged likudnik who is venting his spleen and you portray it as if this is going to become policy you don t say what the response to matza s suggestion was do do not mention whether he was refering to terrorists caught in the act which could be a clear cut case of self defence would you care to elaborate on this or was this all you wanted to say on the matter why don t you give up this center for policy research crap and just post your biases without trying to legitimize them with a pompous name ha aretz march today a private security firm and units from the idf southern command will begin installation of four magnetic gates in the gaza strip as an additional stage in the upgrading of security measures in the strip the gates will aid in the searching of non jewish gaza residents as they leave for work in israel they can be used to reveal the presence of knives axes weapons and other sharp objects in addition to the gates which will be operated by a private civilian company large quantities of magnetic card reading devices are being brought to the inspection points to facilitate the reading of the magnetic cards these non jewish workers must carry a laudable precaution every single thing you post about israel is posted to portray israel as negatively as you can deliberate omissions are an integral part of the shtick and it s not only the incidents that you do not mention but even the stories you do post are fraught with omissions which change the entire meaning the absurdity of your respectable name cannot hide your bias in your effort to portray israel in an unfavorable light you have accomplished nothing except to prove that a respectable sounding label like the center for policy research is nothing but a smoke screen for someone with a heavily biased attitude against israel and the need to vent it this center for policy research stuff is nonsense
talk.politics.mideast	re public service translation no in article apr urartu sdpa org dbd urartu sdpa org david davidian writes in article hydra gatech edu gt a prism gatech edu gt a gt a kaan timucin wrote kaan who the hell is this guy david davidian i think he talks too much i am your alter ego kaan yo david you would better shut the f up o k no its not ok what are you going to do come and get me maybe he will maybe he is working for the secret turkish service you never know kaan i don t like your attitute you are full of lies and shit in the united states we refer to it as freedom of speech if you don t like no it is still called you are full of shit even in the us kaan didn t you hear the saying don t mess with a turc no why do you ask what are you going to do are you going to submit me to bodily harm are you going to kill me are you going to torture me well now you have don t worry turks do not turn to terrorist actions like armenians have so you can be sure that you will not be killed however i do not know about the torture part timucin sounds like a tough guy so watch out kaan see ya in hell wrong again kaan timucin all i did was to translate a few lines from turkish into english if it was so embarrassing in turkish it shouldn t have been written in the first place don t kill the messenger if you are going to translate you have to do it consistently if you selectively translate things to serve your ugly purpose people get pisssssssssed offfffff in ottoman times messengers were usually killed by cutting their heads off and sending it back to their country but ottoman empire no longer exists darn esin david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
talk.politics.mideast	re how many israeli soldiers does it take to kill a yr old child in a previous article steel hal gnu ai mit edu nick steel says q how many occupying israeli soldiers terrorists does it take to kill a year old native child a four two fasten his arms one shoots in the face and one writes up a false report this newsgroup is for intelligent discussion i want you to either smarten up and stop this bullshit posting or get the fuck out of my face and this net steve internet aa freenet carleton ca fidonet mossad qube ocunix on ca my opinions are not associated with anything including my head
talk.politics.mideast	re public service translation no david posts a good translation of a post by suat kinikliouglu most of the original post elided kk vatan sevgisi ruhlari kirden kurtaran en kuvvetli ruzgardir in translation as a public service most of the translation elided the love of the fatherland is the strongest of all winds cleansing filth off souls i think this part of the translation is questionable although i think the original quote is plain silly you made it sound as if it is coming from a neo nazi youth for example turks talk of a motherland not a germanic fatherland why filth instead of dirt the indeterminacy of translation is a well known problem so one may have to fudge but with some care of course is the following an equally valid translation the love of one s country is the strongest wind to cleanse one s soul see my point nevertheless i think you translate well oz willard van orman quine word and object mit press cambridge mass
talk.politics.mideast	re was go hezbollah in article apr ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu brad hernlem writes in article bcf a news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes assuming also come on brad if we are going to get anywhere in this or any discussion it doesn t help to bring up elements i never addressed nor commented on in any way i made no comment on who is right or who is wrong only that civilians are being used as cover and that having been placed in between the israelis and the guerillas they will be injured as both parties continue their fight pardon me tim but i do not see how it can be possible for the idf to fail to detect the presence of those responsible for planting the bomb which killed the three idf troops and then later know the exact number and whereabouts of all of them several villages were shelled how could the idf possibly have known that there were guerrillas in each of the targetted villages you see it was an arbitrary act of retaliation i will again repeat my statement i do not condone these indiscriminate israeli acts nor have i ever if the villagers do not know who these guerillas are which you stated earlier how do you expect the israelis to know it is very difficult to identify who they are this is why the guerillas prefer to lose themselves in the general population by dressing the same acting the same etc the host arab state did little nothing to try and stop these attacks from its side of the border with israel the problem tim is that the original reason for the invasion was palestinian attacks on israel not lebanese attacks i agree but because lebanon was either unwilling or unable to stop these attacks from its territory should israel simply sit quietly and accept its situation israel asked the lebanese government over and over to control this third party state within lebanese territory and the attacks kept occuring at what point does israel or any state have the right to do something itself to stop such attacks never while the major armaments those allowing people to wage civil wars have been removed the weapons needed to cross border attacks still remain to some extent rocket attacks still continue and commando raids only require a few easily concealed weapons and a refined disregard for human life yours of that of others such attacks also continue yes i am afraid that what you say is true but that still does not justify occupying your neighbor s land israel must resolve its disputes with the native palestinians if it wants peace from such attacks it is also the responsibility of any state to not allow any outside party to use its territory for attacks on a neighboring state if angola had the power and south africa refused or couldn t stop anti angolan guerillas based on sa soil from attacking angola and south africa refused to have un troops stationed on its territory between it and angola would angola be justified in entering sa if not are you saying that angola had to accept the situation do nothing and absorb the attacks bat guano the situation you call for existed in the s and attacks were commonplace not true lebanese were not attacking israel in the s with a strong lebanese government free from syrian and israeli interference i believe that the border could be adequately patrolled the palestinian heavy weapons have been siezed in past years and i do not see as significant a threat as once existed i refered above at all times to the palestinian attacks on israel from lebanese soil not to lebanese attacks on israel one hopes that a lebanese government will be strong enough to patrol its border but there is no reason to believe it will be any stronger what has changed is that the plo was largely driven out of lebanon not by the lebanese not by syria and that is by far the most important making it easier to control future palestinian attacks from lebanese soil that change was brought about by israeli action the plo would never have been ejected by lebanese arab state or un actions please tim don t fall into the trap of treating lebanese and palestinians as all part of the same group there are too many who think all arabs or all muslims are the same too many times i have seen people support the bombing of palestinian camps in retaliation for an idf death at the hands of the lebanese resistance or the shelling of lebanese villages in retaliation for a palestinian attack i fully recognize that the lebanese do not want to be used by either side and have been and continue to be but the most fundamental issue is that if a state cannot control its borders and make real efforts to do so it should expect others to do it for them hopefully that other will be the un but it is as we see in its cowardice regarding bosnia weak tim
talk.politics.mideast	re was go hezbollah hernlem chess ncsu edu brad hernlem writes tell me tim what are these guerillas doing wrong assuming that they are using civilians for cover are they not killing soldiers in their country so it s okay to use civilians for cover if you re attacking soldiers in your country of course many of those attacking claim that they aren t lebanese so it s not their country got it i think hmm this is confusing could you perhaps repeat your rules explaining exactly when it is permissible to use civilians as shields also please explain under what conditions it is permissible for soldiers to defend themselves also please explain the particular rules that make it okay for terrorists to launch missiles from lebanon against israeli civilians but not okay for the israelis to try to defend themselves against those missiles alan h stein astein israel nysernet org
talk.politics.mideast	re from israeli press madness in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes from center for policy research cpr subject from israeli press madness written pm apr by cpr igc apc org in igc mideast forum from israeli press madness from the israeli press paper zman tel aviv tel aviv s time friday local tel aviv s paper affiliated with maariv date february journalist guy ehrlich subject interview with soldiers who served in the duvdevan cherry units which disguise themselves as arabs and operate within the occupied territories excerpts from the article a lot has been written about the units who disguise themselves as arabs things good and bad some of the falsehoods but the most important problem of those units has been hardly dealt with it is that everyone who serves in the cherry after a time goes in one way or another insane gee i d better tell this to the mental health branch of the israeli army medical corps where would we be without you davidson a man who said this who will here be called danny his full name is known to the editors served in the cherry after his discharge from the army he works as delivery boy his pal who will here be called dudu was also serving in the cherry and is now about to depart for a round the world tour they both look no different from average israeli youngsters freshly discharged from conscript service but in their souls one can notice something completely different it was not easy for them to come out with disclosures about what happened to them and they think that to most of their fellows from the cherry it woundn t be easy either yet after they began to talk it was nearly impossible to make them stop talking the following article will contain all the horror stories recounted with an appalling openness a short time ago i was in command of a veteran team in which some of the fellows applied for release from the cherry we called such soldiers h i hit by the intifada under my command was a soldier who talked to himself non stop which is a common phenomenon in the cherry i sent him to a psychiatrist but why i should talk about others when i myself feel quite insane on fridays when i come home my parents know i cannot be talked to until i go to the beach surf a little calm down and return the keys of my father s car must be ready for in advance so that i can go there i they dare talk to me before or whenever i don t want them to talk to me i just grab a chair and smash it instantly i know it is my nerve smashing chairs all the time and then running away from home to the car and to the beach only there i become normal another friday i was eating a lunch prepared by my mother it was an omelette of sorts she took the risk of sitting next to me and talking to me i then told my mother about an event which was still fresh in my mind i told her how i shot an arab and how exactly his wound looked like when i went to inspect it she began to laugh hysterically i wanted her to cry and she dared laugh straight in my face instead so i told her how my pal had made a mincemeat of the two arabs who were preparing the molotov cocktails he shot them down hitting them beautifully exactly as they deserved one bullet had set a molotov cocktail on fire with the effect that the arab was burning all over just beautifully i was delighted to see it my pal fired three bullets two at the arab with the molotov cocktail and the third at his chum it hit him straight in his ass we both felt that we d pulled off something next i told my mother how another pal of mine split open the guts in the belly of another arab and how all of us ran toward that spot to take a look i reached the spot first and then that arab blood gushing forth from his body spits at me i yelled shut up and he dared talk back to me in hebrew so i just laughed straight in his face i am usually laughing when i stare at something convulsing right before my eyes then i told him all right wait a moment i left him in order to take a look at another wounded arab i asked a soldier if that arab could be saved if the bleeding from his artery could be stopped with the help of a stone of something else like that i keep telling all this to my mother with details and she keeps laughing straight into my face this infuriated me i got very angry because i felt i was becoming mad so i stopped eating seized the plate with he omelette and some trimmings still on and at once threw it over her head only then she stopped laughing at first she didn t know what to say but i must tell you of a still other madness which falls upon us frequently i went with a friend to practice shooting on a field a gull appeared right in the middle of the field my friend shot it at once then we noticed four deer standing high up on the sigh four deer in tel aviv well this is probably as accurate as the rest of this fantasy hill above us my friend at once aimed at one of them and shot it we enjoyed the sight of it falling down the rock we shot down two deer more and went to take a look when we climbed the rocks we saw a young deer badly wounded by our bullet but still trying to such some milk from its already dead mother we carefully inspected two paths covered by blood and chunks of torn flesh of the two deer we had hit we were just delighted by that sight we had hit em so good then we decided to kill the young deer too so as spare it further suffering i approached took out my revolver and shot him in the head several times from a very short distance when you shoot straight at the head you actually see the bullets sinking in but my fifth bullet made its brains fall outside onto the ground with the effect of splattering lots of blood straight on us this made us feel cured of the spurt of our madness standing there soaked with blood we felt we were like beasts of prey we couldn t explain what had happened to us we were almost in tears while walking down from that hill and we felt the whole day very badly we always go back to places we carried out assignments in this is why we can see them when you see a guy you disabled may be for the rest of his life you feel you got power you feel godlike of sorts both danny and dudu contemplate at least at this moment studying the acting dudu is not willing to work in any security linked occupation danny feels the exact opposite why shouldn t i take advantage of the skills i have mastered so well why shouldn t i earn for each chopped head i would deliver while being a mercenary in south africa this kind of job suits me perfectly i have no human emotions any more if i get a reasonable salary i will have no problem to board a plane to bosnia in order to fight there transl by israel shahak yisrael shahak the crackpot chemist figures i often see him in the rechavia jerusalem post office a really sad figure actually i feel sorry for him he was in a concentration camp during the holocaust and it must have affected him deeply josh backon vms huji ac il
talk.politics.mideast	re from israeli press torture in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes from center for policy research cpr subject from israeli press torture written pm apr by cpr igc apc org in igc mideast forum from israeli press torture from the israeli press newspaper ma ariv date december author avi raz subject torture sigh farwell la donchin e the truth will out interrogative polygraphy lie detection with event related brain potentials psychophysiology the research reported here was supported in part by contract number f with the central intelligence agency preliminary reports were presented at the and meetings of the society for psychophysiological research donchin happens to be an israeli do you really think that israel needs something as primitive as torture when it has this as well as something brought over by a russian mathematician from the lenningrad military hospital in factor analysis of multiple unit activity of the brain surely you jest when israel sics trained dogs on arab prisoners the way it s commonly done on prison farms in mississippi or alabama then you have a right to protest against torture when israeli security personnel beat arab prisoners the way chicago police do then you have a right to complain since it does not practice physical torture in any way kindly refrain from using this word josh backon vms huji ac il title of article moderate physical pressure several times in the course of the long hours in the interrogation room in tulkarm prison during which he says he was humiliated beaten and tortured omar daoud jaber heard his interrogator a shabak agent captain louis chatting on the phone with his wife at those moments omar said i felt that he was like a humanbeing but right after he finished talking he would be beat me and say you listened to the conversation and enjoyed yourself and i understood that he was not really a human being in late october after days in detention at tulkarm prison omar jaber was released without charges among the jews as among the arabs there are good people and bad people he said after his release but there in tulkarm in the interrogations rooms you cannot find even one person about whom you can say that he is a human being although he left the detention installation in tulkarm bruised and humiliated i sat at home for ten days my hands shook from nerves one may consider omar jaber lucky he got out not so healthy but entire and even ultimately returned to normal functioning at the small solar heater plant he owns in contrast hassan bader al zbeidi for example was released seven weeks ago from detention in tulkarm after days in the shabak wing cut off from his surroundings he doesn t speak or react mustafa barakat aged only who was arrested in early august and was brought to the tulkarm detention installation left it one day later dead we have recently received an especially large number of testimonies concerning cruel tortures employed at the tulkarm detention installation by shabak interrogators noted dr niv gordon director of the association of israel and palestinian physicians for human rights the right to complain against the shabak does not excite anan saber makhlouf a year old student in fact he was extremely fearful about describing the manner in which he was interrogated in tulkarm prison in case the publication in the paper would return him to detention and lead to renewed mistreatment follow description of tortures omar a tall bearded man was silent i do not want to talk about it he finally said quietly some time later embarrased and ashamed he spoke sometimes he beats you and beats you until you ll kiss his hand and not only his hand even the hands of another interrogator and another whom he calls into the room and the last interrogator says now you are kissing my hand and later if i want you will kiss my ass these things take place in an israeli army detention installation located within the military government compound in tulkarm west bank but the shabak interrogation wing is a separate kingdom in early march the idf allowed representatives of b tselem the israeli information center for human rights in the territories to visit tulkarm prison but denied them access to the interrogation wing the interrogation wing is shabak property being solely under shabak responsibility all interrogations are performed by it said lieutnant sharon sho an the commander of the installation according to the internal report written by b tselem member yuval ginbar following the visit major david pe er governing commander of the prison system in the central command was quoted in the report there is an ethical problem here no one can enter the interrogation wing transl by i shahak
talk.politics.mideast	its entire muslim population had been slaughtered by the armenians source men are like that by leonard ramsden hartill the bobbs merrill company indianapolis pages memoirs of an armenian officer who participated in the genocide of million muslim people p first paragraph the tartar section of the town no longer existed except as a pile of ruins it had been destroyed and its inhabitants slaughtered the same fate befell the tartar section of khankandi p second paragraph many of our men had served in the russian army and were trained soldiers we armenians were rich and possessed arms tartars had never received military training they were poor and possessed few arms beyond knives shortly after the killing of the tartars in our village the revolution in russia was suppressed serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	armenian way of slaughtering a twelve year old muslim girl source world alive a personal story by robert dunn crown publishers inc new york memoirs of an american officer who witnessed the armenian genocide of million muslim people p at length all shooting petered out i got on my horse and rode down toward djul it burned still but little flame showed now the way was steep and tough through dense scrub finally on flatter ground i came out suddenly through alders on smoldering houses across trampled wheat my brothers in arms were leading off animals several calves and a lamb p fourth paragraph corpses came next the first a pretty child with straight black hair large eyes she looked about twelve years old she lay in some stubble where meal lay scattered from the sack she d been toting the bayonet had gone through her back i judged for blood around was scant between the breasts one clot too small for a bullet wound crusted her homespun dress the next was a boy of ten or less in rawhide jacket and knee pants he lay face down in the path by several huts one arm reached out to the pewter bowl he d carried now upset upon its dough steel had jabbed just below his neck into the spine there were grownups too i saw as i led the sorrel around djul was empty of the living till i looked up to see beside me dro s german speaking colonel he said all tartars who had not escaped were dead serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	cold blooded slaughter of muslim women and children by armenians in article apr news columbia edu lasner watsun cc columbia edu charles lasner writes hmm maybe i ll go rent midnight express tonight i haven t seen that scene in awhile i have to savor the moment all over again well does it change the fact that during the period of to the fascist x soviet armenian government ordered incited assisted and participated in the genocide of million muslim people because of race religion and national origin as in the past in turkiye and today in azerbaijan for utopic and idiotic causes the armenians brought havoc to their neighbors a short sighted and misplaced nationalistic fervor with a wrong agenda and anachronistic methods the armenians continue to become pernicious for the region as usual they will be treated accordingly by their neighbors nagorno karabag is a mountainous enclave that lies completely within azerbaijan with no border or history whatsoever connected to x soviet armenia besides the geographical aspect nagorno karabag is the historic homeland and the cradle of the artistic and literary heritage of azerbaijan which renders the armenian claims preposterous even lunatic and we still demand that the x soviet armenian government as the heirs of the armenian dictatorship recognize the turkish genocide that x soviet armenia return the historic homeland to the turkish and kurdish people that the x soviet armenian government make material reparations for their heinous and unspeakable crime to the victims of the turkish genocide that all world governments officially recognize the turkish genocide and turkish territorial rights and refuse to succumb to all armenian political pressure the awareness of the turkish people of the necessity of solidarity in the efforts to pursue the turkish cause is seen by the victims of the first genocide of the th century as a positive step now what would you do source the sunday times march a british weekly written by thomas goltz from agdam azerbaijan armenian soldiers massacre hundreds of fleeing families the spiralling violence gripping the outer republics of the former soviet union gained new impetus yesterday with cold blooded slaughter of hundreds of women and children in war racked nagorno karabakh survivors reported that armenian soldiers shot and bayoneted more than azeris many of them women and children who were fleeing an attack on their town hundreds possibly thousands were missing and feared dead the attackers killed most of the soldiers and volunteers defending the women and children they then turned their guns on the terrified refugees the few survivors later described what happened that s when the real slaughter began said azer hajiev one of three soldiers to survive the armenians just shot and shot and then they came in and started carving up people with their bayonets and knives they were shooting shooting shooting echoed rasia aslanova who arrived in agdam with other women and children who made their way through armenian lines she said her husband kayun and a son in law were killed in front of her her daughter was still missing one boy who arrived in agdam had an ear sliced off the survivors said others some of whom had fled separately were still missing in the gruelling terrain many could perish from their wounds or the cold by late yesterday deaths had been registered at the morgue in agdam s morgue and bodies had been buried in the cemetery of the seven corpses i saw awaiting burial two were children and three were women one shot through the chest at point blank range agdam hospital was a scene of carnage and terror doctors said they had patients who escaped slaughter most with bullet injuries or deep stab wounds nor were they safe in agdam on friday night rockets fell on the city which has a population of destroying several buildings and killing one person serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	x soviet armenia denies the historical fact of the turkish genocide in article c lxew p panix com mpoly panix com michael s polymenakos writes maybe with the availability of anon servers some people are beginning to speak out i sure hope so because the unspeakable crimes of the armenians must be righted armenian invaders burned and sacked the fatherland of urartus massacred and exterminated its population and presented to the world all those left from the urartus as the armenian civilization all reliable western historians describe how armenians ruthlessly exterminated million muslim women children and elderly people of eastern anatolia and how they collaborated with the enemies of the ottoman empire between it is unfortunately a truth that armenians are known as collaborators of the nazis during world war ii and that even today criminal nazi members of the asala sdpa arf terrorism triangle preach and instigate racism hatred violence and terrorism among peoples and x soviet armenia continues its anti turkish policy in the following ways x soviet armenia denies the historical fact of the turkish genocide in order to shift international public opinion away from its political responsibility x soviet armenia employing asala sdpa arf terrorism and revisionism triangle and criminal nazi armenians attempts to call into question the veracity of the turkish genocide x soviet armenia has also implemented state sponsored terrorism through the asala sdpa arf terrorism and revisionism triangle in an attempt to silence the turkish people s vehement demands and protests using all its human financial and governmental resources x soviet armenia and its tools in the united states attempt to silence through terrorism bribery and other subversive methods non turkish supporters of the turkish cause be they political governmental and humanitarian using all the aforementioned methods the x soviet armenian government is attempting to neutralize the international diplomatic community from making the turkish case a contemporary issue yet despite the efforts of the x soviet armenian government and its terrorist and revisionist organizations in the last decades thanks to the struggle of those whose closest ones were systematically exterminated by the armenians the international wall of silence on this issue has begun to collapse and consequently a number of governments and organizations have become supportive of the recognition of the turkish genocide serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	no muslim left alive not a single one historical armenian barbarism in article apr sol ctr columbia edu halsall murray fordham edu paul halsall writes simple question serdar anytime if the armenians killed so many turks in eastern anatolia how come the area today is full of turks and muslim kurds and not full of armenians suffering from a severe case of myopia no muslim left alive not a single one leading the first armenian units who crossed the ottoman border in the company of the russian invaders was the former ottoman parliamentary representative for erzurum karekin pastirmaciyan who assumed the revolutionary name armen garo another former ottoman parliamentarian hamparsum boyaciyan led the armenian guerrilla forces who ravaged turkish villages behind the lines under the nickname murad especially ordering that kill turks and kurds wherever you find them and in whatever circumstances you find them turkish children also should be killed as they form a danger to the armenian nation hamparsum boyadjian m varandian history of the dashnaktsutiun p another former member of parliament papazyan led the armenian guerrilla forces that ravaged the areas of van bitlis and mush in march the russian forces began to move toward van immediately in april the armenians of van began a revolt massacring all the turks in the vicinity so as to make possible its quick and easy conquest by russians little wonder that czar nicholas ii sent a telegram of thanks to the armenian revolutionary committee of van in april thanking it for its services to russia the armenian newspaper gochnak published in the united states also proudly reported in may that only turks remained in van the rest having been slaughtered source hovannisian richard g armenia on the road to independence university of california press berkeley and los angeles p the addition of the kars and batum oblasts to the empire increased the area of transcaucasia to over square miles the estimated population of the entire region in was of whom percent were armenian percent georgian and percent moslem of the latter group were tatars paradoxically barely one third of transcaucasia s armenians lived in the erevan guberniia where the christians constituted a majority in only three of the seven uezds erevan uezd the administrative center of the province had only armenians as compared to moslems by the time of the russian census of however the armenians had established a scant majority percent in the guberniia it had risen by to percent or of the inhabitants this impressive change in the province s ethnic character notwithstanding there was on the eve of the creation of the armenian republic a solid block of tartars who continued to dominate the southern districts from the outskirts of ereven to the border of persia see also map historic armenia and map administrative subdivisions of transcaucasia in percent turk we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the tartars and then proceeded in the work of extermination our troops surrounded village after village little resistance was offered our artillery knocked the huts into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable and inhabitants fled from them into fields bullets and bayonets completed the work some of the tartars escaped of course they found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border into turkey the rest were killed and so it is that the whole length of the borderland of russian armenia from nakhitchevan to akhalkalaki from the hot plains of ararat to the cold mountain plateau of the north were dotted with mute mournful ruins of tartar villages they are quiet now those villages except for howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the scattered bones of the dead ohanus appressian men are like that p source stanford j shaw on armenian collaboration with invading russian armies in history of the ottoman empire and modern turkey volume ii reform revolution republic the rise of modern turkey london cambridge university press pp in april dashnaks from russian armenia organized a revolt in the city of van whose armenians comprised percent of the population closest to an armenian majority of any city in the empire leaving erivan on april armenian volunteers reached van on may and organized and carried out a general slaughter of the local muslim population during the next two days while the small ottoman garrison had to retreat to the southern side of the lake knowing their numbers would never justify their territorial ambitions armenians looked to russia and europe for the fulfillment of their aims armenian treachery in this regard culminated at the beginning of the first world war with the decision of the revolutionary organizations to refuse to serve their state the ottoman empire and to assist instead other invading russian armies their hope was their participation in the russian success would be rewarded with an independent armenian state carved out of ottoman territories armenian political leaders army officers and common soldiers began deserting in droves with the russian invasion of eastern anatolia in at the beginning of world war i the degree of armenian collaboration with the ottoman s enemy increased drastically ottoman supply lines were cut by guerilla attacks armenian revolutionaries armed armenian civil populations who in turn massacred the muslim population of the province of van in anticipation of expected arrival of the invading russian armies source stanford j shaw history of the ottoman empire and modern turkey vol ii cambridge university press london pp meanwhile czar nicholas ii himself came to the caucasus to make final plans for cooperation with the armenians against the ottomans with the president of the armenian national bureau in tiflis declaring in response from all countries armenians are hurrying to enter the ranks of the glorious russian army with their blood to serve the victory of russian arms let the russian flag wave freely over the dardanelles and the bosporus let with your will great majesty the peoples remaining under the turkish yoke receive freedom let the armenian people of turkey who have suffered for the faith of christ receive resurrection for a new free life under the protection of russia armenians again flooded into the czarist armies preparations were made to strike the ottomans from the rear and the czar returned to st petersburg confident that the day finally had come for him to reach istanbul horizon tiflis november quoted by hovannisian road to independence p fo ottoman morale and military position in the east were seriously hurt and the way was prepared for a new russian push into eastern anatolia to be accompanied by an open armenian revolt against the sultan hovannisian road to independence pp bayur iii pp w e d allen and p muratoff caucasian battlefields cambridge pp ali ihsan sabis harb hahralaram vols ankara ii fo no fo fo nos and an armenian state was organized at van under russian protection and it appeared that with the muslim natives dead or driven away it might be able to maintain itself at one of the oldest centers of ancient armenian civilization an armenian legion was organized to expel the turks from the entire southern shore of the lake in preparation for a concerted russian drive into the bitlis vilayet thousands of armenians from mus and other major centers in the east began to flood into the new armenian state by mid july there were as many as armenians crowded into the van area which before the crisis had housed and fed no more than people muslim and non muslim alike hovannisian road to independence p fop nos and bva meclis i vukela mazbatalari debates of august babi i ali evrak odasi no van ihtilali ve katl i ami zilkade september now wait there is more from the diplomacy of imperialism william l langer new york alfred a knopf pp armenians watch their opportunity to kill turks and kurds set fire to their villages and then make their escape into the mountains also since the ottomans were such great tolerators how come the armenians were counted as part of the rum millet i e forced under the control of the greek orthodox patriarchate are you people for real the main legal principles of the turkish state are summarized in article of the constitution the republic of turkey is a democratic secular and social state governed by the rule of law bearing in mind the concepts of public peace national solidarity and justice respecting human rights loyal to the nationalism of ataturk and based on the fundamental tenets set forth in the preamble of the constitution freedom of culture and religion prevailed during the ottoman empire allowing the many nations and races within its boundaries to remain autonomous the fact that the ottoman empire was the longest lived in recent history may be attributed to these freedoms despite the lack of any written constitution the first attempts to create a written constitution occurred in and although the documents adopted during these two attempts remained in force only temporarily they provided the basic elements of a constitution the constitution was the first legal document to force a parliament and the right of election to share the sovereignty of the emperor the constitution of placed some additional limitations on the emperor while increasing the power of the parliament and the government the first world war brought the ottoman empire to an end by the occupation of istanbul the parliament was dissolved and the constitution was abolished the members of parliament were sent to exile to an island by the occupying forces during the independence war the turkish grand national assembly held their first meeting on april to serve as the legislative body of the new turkish state this assembly prepared the new legal structure of the turkish republic the new republic was proclaimed on october and the new constitution was adopted in that constitution served as the legal backbone of today s modern turkish republic in turkey adopted a multi party political system the constitution of was replaced by others in and all three constitutions of the republic have been based on the principles of parliamentary democracy human rights national sovereignty division of powers private ownership and secularization major principles of the constitution the constitution with articles establishes the structure of the republic within the following principles the turkish republic is a democratic secular and social state governed by law it should be governed to maintain public peace national solidarity justice human rights and the objectives of ataturk the language of the state is turkish sovereignty is vested in the nation without any conditions or restrictions sovereignty is exercised by organizations authorized by the nation legislative power is carried by the parliament elected by the nation this power cannot be delegated transferred to any one else executive power is exercised by the president and council of ministers judicial power is exercised by the independent courts on behalf of the turkish nation all individuals are equal irrespective of language race religion color sex or political beliefs laws cannot be contradict those principles stated in the constitution structure of the state in accordance with the constitution the structure of the state is based on the principle of division of power to create a balanced and self controlled system the power is divided into legislative power executive power and judicial power balanced to secure freedoms and powers to control each other self control a legislative power the turkish grand national assembly is a parliament with one house elected by the nation for a term of five years to exercise legislative power on behalf of the nation the basic functions of this assembly are to adopt to amend or to repeal laws to approve or to dismiss the council of ministers to supervise and to question ministers or the council of ministers to debate to amend and to approve annual budgets to ratify international agreements to grant amnesty or pardons members of parliament do not have any liability for their words either oral or written during the course of their legislative duties the country is divided into constituencies the number of representatives of each is calculated according to its population every turkish citizen over the age of twenty one can vote elections are supervised by the supreme council of elections which solves all disputes or appeals in each province the local board of election runs and controls the election under the supervision and guidelines of the supreme council members of the council and boards are elected among independent judges b executive power the president of the republic is the head of state not the head of government as in the unites states the main functions of the president are to represent the state and the country to insure the implementation of the constitution to coordinate legislative judicial and executive functions act as the supreme commander of the armed forces to ratify laws and government decrees the president is elected by the grand national assembly for a period of seven years the president may ratify or return the laws for a second debate may call for a referendum executive power is exercised by the council of ministers headed by the prime minister the prime minister is appointed by the president from the members of parliament the prime minister names the ministers for approval by the president the new government council of ministers reads their program at the parliament and the vote of confidence follows there are ministers in the council ministers and other members of the administration can be sued in independent administrative courts for their misuse of power administrative errors or functions against any law c judicial power judicial power is exercised by independent courts no authority or power can instruct the judges or public prosecutors of the courts these cannot be discharged replaced or retired by executive authorities except for the reasons clearly stated by the appropriate laws there are three categories of courts in the turkish judiciary system courts of justice deal with legal commercial and criminal cases the decisions of these courts may be reviewed by the supreme court of justice upon the appeal of the parties involved the decisions or functions of the executive power including the prime minister and ministers or any governmental department can be appealed in administrative courts if these functions or decisions are against the law the decisions of these administrative courts may also be reviewed by the high administrative court the laws and decisions of the grand national assembly can be examined by the constitutional court if they contradict the constitution if found contradictory this court may cancel the decisions or laws of the parliament serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re the hamas way of death tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes while you brought up the separate question of israel s unjustified policies and practices i am still unclear about your reaction to the practices and polocies reflected in the article above tim not a separate question mr clock it is deceiving to judge the resistance movement out of the context of the occupation alaa zeineldine
talk.politics.mideast	re investment in yehuda and shomron in article igc apc org cpr igc apc org center for policy research writes those who wish to learn something about the perversion of judaism should consult the masterly work by yehoshua harkabi who was many years the head of israeli intelligence and an opponent of the plo his latest book was published in english and includes a very detailed analysis of judeo nazism you mean he talks about those jews who because of their self hatred spend all their time attacking judaism jews and israel using the most despicable of anti semetic stereotypes i don t think we need to coin a term like jedeo nazism to refer to those jews who in their endless desire to be accepted by the nazis do their dirty work for them we can just call them house jews fools or anti semites from jewish families i think house jews a reference to a person of jewish ancestry who issues statements for a company or organization that condemn judaism is perfectly sufficeint i think a few years free of their anti semetic role models would do wonders for most of them adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
talk.politics.mideast	how many israeli soldiers does it take to boy that was really humorous i m impressed by your incredible senses of wit sarcasm and propriety mind if i post jokes about your mother
talk.politics.mideast	re legality of the jewish purchase in article apr bnr ca zbib bnr ca writes adam shostack writes sam zbib writes i m surprised that you don t consider the acquisition of land by the jews from arabs for the purpose of establishing an exclusive state as a hostile action leading to war it was for the purpose of establishing a state not an exclusive state if the state was to be exclusive it would not have arab citizens could you please tell me what was the ethnic composition of israel right after it was formed israeli citizens the ethnic composition depends on what you mean by formed what the un deeded to israel what it won in war and no i do not consider the purchase of land a hostile action when someone wants to buy land and someone else is willing to sell it at a mutually agreeable price then that is commerce it is not a hostile action leading to war no one in his right mind would sell his freedom and dignity palestinians are no exception perhaps you heard about anti trust in the business world were there anti trust laws in place in mandatory palestine since the answer is no you re argument while interestingly constructed is irrelevant i will however respond to a few points you assert in the course of talking about anti trust laws they were establishing a bridgehead for the european jews and those fleeing arab lands where jews were second class citizens plus they paid fair market value etc jews often paid far more than fair market value for the land they bought they did not know they were victims of an international conspiracy you know sam when people start talking about an international jewish conspiracy its really begins to sound like anti semitic bull the reason there is no conspiracy here is quite simple zionists made no bones about what was going on there were conferences publications etc all talking about creating a national home for the jews israel gave citizenship to the remaining arabs because it had to maintain a democratic facade to keep the western aid flowing israel got no western aid in nor in or it still granted citizenship to those arabs who remained and how is granting citizenship a facade don t get me wrong i beleive that israel is democratic within the constraints of one dominant ethnic group jews bad arabs personaly i ve never heard anything about the arab community in isreal except that they re there so yes they re there but as a community with history and roots its dead because you ve never heard of it its dead the fact is you claimed israel had to give arabs rights because of non existant international aid then you see that that argument has a hole you could drive a truck through and again assert that israel is only democratic within the unexplained constraints of one ethnic group the problem with that argument is that arabs are allowed to vote for whoever they please so please tell me sam what constraints are there on israeli democracy that don t exist in other democratic states i ve never heard anything about the khazakistani arab population does that mean that they have no history or roots when i was at ben gurion university in israel one of my neighbors was an israeli arab he wasn t really all that different from my other neighbors does that make him dead or oppressed i stand corrected i meant that the jewish culture was not predominant in palestine in recent history i have no problem with jerusalem having a jewish character if it were predominantly jewish so there what to make of the rest palestine how recent is recent i can probably build a case for a jewish gaza city it would be pretty silly but i could do it i m arguing not that jerusalem is jewish but that land has no ethnicity adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
talk.politics.mideast	himmler s speech on the extirpation of the jewish race washington a stark reminder of the holocaust a speech by nazi ss leader heinrich himmler that refers to the extermination of the jewish race went on display friday at the national archives the documents including handwritten notes by himmler are among the best evidence that exists to rebut claims that the holocaust is a myth archivists say the notes give them their authenticity said robert wolfe a supervisory archivist for captured german records he was supposed to destroy them like a lot of bosses he didn t obey his own rules the documents moved out of berlin to what himmler hoped would be a safe hiding place were recovered by allied forces after world war ii from a salt mine near salzburg austria himmler spoke on oct in posen poland to more than german secret police generals i also want to talk to you quite frankly on a very grave matter among ourselves it should be mentioned quite frankly and yet we will never speak of it publicly i mean the clearing out of the jew the extermination of the jewish race this is a page of glory in our history which has never been written and is never to be written emphasis mine rje the german word himmler uses that is translated as extermination is ausrottung wolfe said a more precise translation would be extirpation or tearing up by the roots in his handwritten notes himmler used a euphemism judenevakuierung or evacuation of the jews but archives officials said extermination is the word he actually spoke preserved on an audiotape in the archives himmler who oversaw adolf hitler s final solution of the jewish question committed suicide after he was arrested in the national archives exhibit on display through may is a preview of the opening of the united states holocaust memorial museum here on april the national archives exhibit includes a page each of himmler s handwritten notes a typed transcript from the speech and an offical translation made for the nuremberg war crimes trials from p a of saturday s l a times associated press revans math ucsd edu
talk.politics.mideast	re more on adl spying case arens isi edu yigal arens writes los angeles times tuesday april p a new details of extensive adl spy operation emerge inquiry transcripts reveal nearly years of espionage by a man who infiltrated political groups by richard c paddock times staff writer did they have a file on yigal too
talk.politics.mideast	re xsoviet armenia denies the historical fact of the turkish genocide in article apr hellgate utah edu tolman asylum cs utah edu cs utah edu kenneth tolman writes i sure hope so because the unspeakable crimes of the armenians must be righted armenian invaders burned and sacked the fatherland of no no no no no no no it is not justifiable to right wrongs of previous years my ancestors tortured enslaved and killed blacks i do not want to take responsibility for them i may not have any direct relatives who did such things but how am i to know there is enough current torture enslavement and genocide to go around lets correct that lets forget and forgive each and every one of us has a historical reason to kill torture or take back things from those around us pray let us not be infantile arbiters for past injustice are you suggesting that we should forget the cold blooded genocide of million muslim people by the armenians between and but most people aren t aware that in hitler said that he would pattern his elimination of the jews based upon what the armenians did to turkish people in after all who remembers today the extermination of the tartars adolf hitler august ruth w rosenbaum durusoy the turkish holocaust turk soykirimi p i refer to the turks and kurds as history s forgotten people it does not serve our society well when most people are totally unaware of what happened in where a vicious society run by fascist armenians decided to simply use the phoniest of pretexts as an excuse for wiping out a peace loving industrious and very intelligent and productive ethnic group what we have is a demand from the fascist government of x soviet armenia to redress the wrongs that were done against our people and the only way we can do that is if we can catch hold of and not lose sight of the historical precedence in this very century we cannot reverse the events of the past but we can and we must strive to keep the memory of this tragedy alive on this side of the atlantic so as to help prevent a recurrence of the extermination of a people because of their religion or their race which means that i support the claims of the turks and kurds to return to their lands in x soviet armenia to determine their own future as a nation in their own homeland serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	entire muslim population was subjected to genocide by armenians in article sdcc ucsd edu hminassi sdcc ucsd edu hm writes azeri president abulfaz elchibey said azerbaijan had recovered the bodies of some terrorists including blacks mongols and fighters recently brought to the armenian capital yerevan from lebanon you can dream whatever you wish we have demands from the armenians with the government of x soviet armenia we would sit down go over all our outstanding issues whether it s land or reparations or recognition whatever it is we d like to sit down and ask for it by all means lands and properties were taken away from us and they should be returned to the rightful owners the turkish and kurdish people who were there years long before the armenians ever showed up in that area entire population of the region was subjected to genocide beyond belief genocide which was planned to exterminate the whole turkish people of the region to the last man woman and child armenians tortured and massacred millions of defenseless civilians to assemble innocent civilians in the mosques and burn them in the buildings was one of their methods even today the traveler in that region is seldom free from the evidence of these armenian crimes if you have the stomach i would strongly recommend the following references on the armenian genocide of the muslims many more of them are also available in the erzurum and van turkish genocide museums neside kerem demir bir sehid anasina tarihin soyledikleri turkiye nin ermeni meselesi hulbe basim ve yayin t a s ankara veysel eroglu ermeni mezalimi sebil yayinevi istanbul a alper gazigiray osmanlilardan gunumuze kadar vesikalarla ermeni teroru nun kaynaklari gozen kitabevi istanbul dr kirzioglu m fahrettin kars ili ve cevresinde ermeni mezalimi kardes matbaasi ankara but more than that a final goodbye in azerbaijan photo by associated press at a cemetery in agdam azerbaijan family members and friends grieved during the burial of victims killed in the fighting in nagorno karabagh chingiz iskandarov right hugged the coffin containing the remains of his brother one of the victims a copy of koran lay atop the coffin the new york times final embrace photo by associated press chingiz iskenderov right weeps over coffin holding the remains of his brother as other relatives grieve at an azarbaijani cemetery yesterday amid burial of victims killed in fighting in nagorno karabagh the washington post nagorno karabagh victims buried in azerbaijani town refugees claim hundreds died in armenian attack of seven bodies seen here today two were children and three were women one shot through the chest at what appeared to be close range another refugees being treated at agdam s hospital include many with multiple stab wounds thomas goltz the washington post serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	thousands of armenians were serving the german army and waffen ss in article sdcc ucsd edu hminassi sdcc ucsd edu hm writes turkey must bare its teeth to armenia sooner than you expect remember cyprus i have to say i vehemently disagree with you i have seen too bad in fact by nazi armenians in europe had established a vast network of pro german collaborators that extended over two continents thousands of armenians were serving the german army and waffen ss in russia and western europe armenians were involved in espionage and fifth column activities for hitler in the balkans and arabian peninsula they were promised an independent state under german protection in an agreement signed by the armenian national council a copy of this agreement can be found in the congressional record november see document on this side of the atlantic nazi armenians were aware of their brethrens alliance they had often expressed pro nazi sentiments until america entered the war in summary during world war ii armenians were carried away with the german might and cringing and fawning over the nazis in that zeal the armenian publication in germany hairenik carried statements as follows sometimes it is difficult to eradicate these poisonous elements the jews when they have struck deep root like a chronic disease and when it becomes necessary for a people the nazis to eradicate them in an uncommon method these attempts are regarded as revolutionary during the surgical operation the flow of blood is a natural thing now for a brief view of the armenian genocide of the muslims and jews extracts from a letter dated december published in the san francisco chronicle as an answer to a letter that had been published in the same journal under the signature of one b amarian we have first hand information and evidence of armenian atrocities against our people jews members of our family witnessed the murder of members of our family near erzurum turkey by armenian neighbors bent on destroying anything and anybody remotely jewish and or muslim armenians should look to their own history and see the havoc they and their ancestors perpetrated upon their neighbors armenians were in league with hitler in the last war on his premise to grant them self government if in return the armenians would help exterminate jews armenians were also hearty proponents of the anti semitic acts in league with the russian communists mr amarian i don t need your bias signed elihu ben levi vacaville california james g mandalian dro drastamat kanayan in the armenian review a quarterly by the hairenik association inc summer june vol x no serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	how many more muslim people will be slaughtered by sdpa criminals in article apr urartu sdpa org hla urartu sdpa org writes i want this discussion to take place in english because it is only after let s face it if the words don t get into your noggin in the first place there s no hope now tell us sdpa org a mouthpiece of the fascist x soviet armenian government what was your role in the murder of orhan gunduz and kemal arikan how many more muslims will be slaughtered by sdpa org as publicly declared and filed with the legal authorities that more people have to die sdpa urartu uucp yes i stated this and stand by it sdpa urartu uucp january los angeles kemal arikan is slaughtered by two armenians while driving to work march cambridge massachusetts prelude to grisly murder a gift and import shop belonging to orhan gunduz is blown up gunduz receives an ultimatum either he gives up his honorary position or he will be executed he refuses responsibility is claimed by jcag and sdpa may cambridge massachusetts orhan gunduz the turkish honorary consul in boston would not bow to the armenian terrorist ultimatum that he give up his title of honorary consul now he is attacked and murdered in cold blood president reagan orders an all out manhunt to no avail an eye witness who gave a description of the murderer is shot down he survives but falls silent one of the most revolting triumphs in the senseless mindless history of armenian terrorism such a murder brings absolutely nothing except an ego boost for the murderer within the armenian terrorist underworld which is already wallowing in self satisfaction were you involved in the murder of sarik ariyak december sydney two nazi armenians massacre sarik ariyak and his bodyguard engin sever jcag and sdpa claim responsibility source edward k boghosian radical group hosts well attended solidarity meeting the armenian reporter may pp athens greece an array of representatives of greek political parties including the ruling pasok party and a host of political groups both armenian and non armenian joined to voice their solidarity with the armenian people in their pursuit of their cause and activities of a new armenian political force were voiced here on sunday april during the nd international meeting of solidarity with the armenian people and judging from encouraging messages offered by the representatives of these political groups and organizations at least here in greece the armenian cause enjoys abundant support from a wide spectrum of the political world the international meeting of solidarity was sponsored by the greek branch of the armenian popular movement a comparatively new political force headed by younger generations of armenians who openly profess their support of the armed struggle and of the armenian secret army for the liberation of armenia asala the organization has branches in various european and middle eastern countries and the united states although some of these branches appear to have gone through a switch of loyalties because of the split within the ranks of asala voicing the support of pasok the ruling party in greece to the armenian people was mr charalambidi michalis a member of the central committee of the party and the greek member of the permanent people s tribunal explaining the goals and aspirations of the armenian popular movement was ara sarkisian significant was the address delivered by mr bassam abu salim on behalf of the popular front for the movement s continued support of the armenians armed struggle in their pursuit of their cause pledging that palestinian operated and run training camps would always be open to armenian youth who need training for such a struggle later mr abu salim answering a question put to him by this writer affirmed that his organization had always trained armenian members of asala and that this policy will continue the doors of our camps are always open to armenian freedom fighters he affirmed among the prominent greek politicians who attended the conference was the son of prime minister papandreou who himself holds a post in the greek cabinet two members of the cypriot parliament who had journeyed to athens for the specific purpose of attending the international gathering representatives of the christian democratic party edik center party two wings of the communist party representatives of an assortment of labor unions and trade associations a number of mayors of greek towns and cities two greek members of the european parliament and other members of the greek parliament were also among those who participated in the international conference also on hand to follow the deliberations was the ambassador of bulgaria in athens more than significant was the large number of messages received by the organizers including the following palestinian national revolutionary movement fatah popular front for the liberation of palestine general command the central committee of the palestinian national liberation movement fatah the socialist progressive party of lebanon arab socialist labor party the kurdistan democratic union of iraq and numerous other international groups all noted for their radical stand in the israeli palestinian conflict support from arf rm among messages received from armenian groups was the armenian revolutionary federation revolutionary movement the group that has claimed the abduction and assassination of key party leaders in lebanon accused of selling out to foreign interests and powers the message clearly gave its support to the armenian popular movement pledging that the revolutionary movement will continue to reveal the realities no matter how bitter or tragic they are to expose the anti armenian activities of the leaders of the dashnag bureau the message was taken as an indication of the link loose as it may be that exists between the dissident dashnag group and the armenian popular movement open supporters of asala and armed struggle the armenian popular movement has set up its headquarters in a suburb of the greek capital known as neos kosmos where there is a large armenian presence the headquarters are located in a two story building which appears to have turned into a beehive of activity on the part of scores of armenian youth who prefer to give their first names only when invited to introduce themselves now any comment from vd cunixb cc columbia edu vedat dogan subject re addressing message id apr news columbia edu in article apr urartu sdpa org dbd urartu sdpa org david davidian writes in article apr news columbia edu vd cunixb cc columbia edu vedat dogan wrote in response to article mar urartu sdpa org dbd urartu sdpa org david davidian writes source adventures in the near east by a rawlinson jonathan cape bedford square london first published pages dd such a pile of garbage first off the above reference was first published dd in not and has pages not second upon checking page dd we are asked to believe vd no mr davidian vd it was first published in i have the book on my desk now vd vd and furthermore the book i have does not have pages either as you vd claimed mr davidian it has pages any question well it seems your book has its total page numbers closer to mine than the n crap posted by mr o boy please can you tell us why those quotes are crap because you do not like them because they really exist why as i said in my previous posting those quotes exactly exist in the source given by serdar argic you couldn t reject it in addition the author s preface was written on january but the book was published in here we go again in the book i have both the front page and the author s preface give the same year and january respectively anyone can check it at her his library if not i can send you the copies of pages please ask by sct i really don t care what year it was first published or what i care about is what the book writes about murders tortures et in the given quotes by serdar argic and your denial of these quotes and your groundless accussations etc dd i can provide gif postings if required to verify my claim vd what is new i will post a gif file but i am not going go through the effort to show there is some turkish modified re publication of the book like last time i claim i have a book in my hand published in first publication and it exactly has the same quoted info as the book published in serdar argic s reference has you couldn t reject it but now you are avoiding the real issues by twisting around let s see how you lie from non existing quotes to re publication first you said there was no such a quote in the given reference you called serdar argic a liar i said to you no mr davidian there exactly existed such a quote i even gave the call number page numbers you could t reject it and now you are lying again and talking about modified re published book without any proof how when where by whom etc by the way how is it possible to re publish the book in if it was first published in your claim i am sure that you have some pretty well suited theories as usual and i am ready to send the copies of the necessary pages to anybody who wants to compare the fact and mr davidian s lies i also give the call number and page numbers again for the library use which are r and the page numbers to verify the quotes and it is not possible that s text has pages mine has and yours has now are you claiming that there can t be such a reference by saying it is not possible if not what is your point differences in the number of pages mine was published in serdar argic s was in no need to use the same book size and the same letter charachter in both publications etc etc does it give you an idea the issue was not the number of pages the book has or the year first published and you tried to hide the whole point the point is that both books have the exactly the same quotes about how moslems are killed tortured etc by armenians and those quotes given by serdar argic exist it was the issue wasn t it you were not able to object it does it bother you anyway you name all these tortures and murders by armenians as a crap people who think like you are among the main reasons why the world still has so many craps in the any question serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	sdpa has made armenian synonymous with idiot or criminal nazi in article apr urartu sdpa org hla urartu sdpa org writes in your and mutlu argic cosar s and thousands of others like you sdpa org criminals nazis in action your fascist government got away with the genocide of million turkish men women and children and is enjoying the fruits of that genocide and your criminal organization will not get away with the genocide s cover up in june a major uprising took place in sebinkarahisar under the leadership of the famous nazi boyadjian the moslem districts were burnt down hundreds of soldiers and gendarmerie were killed and hundreds of civilians also perished armenians first of all occupied the talori region which included the villages of siner simai gulli guzat ahi hedenk sinank ekind effard musson etek akcesser leaving their wives children and property in these inaccessible spots the armenians joined forces with other armed bands coming from the silvan districts in the plain of mus after which the whole body of men gathered in the andok mt five or six hundred wished to surround mus and started off by attacking the delican tribe to the south of the city they slaughtered a number of the tribe and seized their goods the religious beliefs of the muslims who fell into their hands were derided and disparaged and the muslims themselves murdered in the most frightful manner the rebels also attacked the regular troops in the vicinity of mus but the large numbers of the regular forces prevented them from occupying the city the rebels joined the bandits in the andok mts carrying out the most frightful massacres and looting among the tribes of the neighbourhood they burned omer agha s nephew alive they raped a number of turkish women at a spot three or four hours distance from gulli guzat and then strangled them at the beginning of august the rebels attacked the faninar bekiran and badikan tribes perpetrating equally horrible atrocities the rebels in the villages of yermut and ealigernuk in the nahiye of cinan in the kaza of cal attacked the kurds in the neighbourhood as well as the villages of kaisser and catcat towards the end of august the armenians attacked the kurds in the vicinity of mus and burned down three or four villages including gulli guzat as for the rebels in talori they continued to spread death and destruction among the muslims and other christian communities refusing to lay down their arms source uras esat the armenians in history documentary publications istanbul p in his speech given at the sivas congress mustafa kemal once again drew a picture of the country under occupation in the east the armenians are making preparations for advancing to the river halys kizilirmak and have already started a policy of massacring the moslem population pp the situation of the southern provinces of turkey after the signing of the mudros armistice is described by ataturk in his speech the armenians in the south armed by foreign troops and encouraged by the protection they enjoyed molested the mohammedans of their district they pursued a relentless policy of murder and extinction everywhere this was responsible for the tragic incident at maras the armenians had completely destroyed an old mohammedan town like maras by their artillery and machine gun fire they killed thousands of innocent and defenceless women and children the armenians were the instigators of the atrocities which were unique in history source documents volume i document no archive no cabin no drawer no file no section no contents no feb march district governor kemal list of male inhabitants of mergehu village murdered or annihilated with the utmost savagery by armenians names method of annihilation haci ibrahim son of abdi bullets and bayonet abdi son of haci ibrahim bullets and bayonet reso son of abdi beaten and cut into pieces sado son of omer beaten and cut into pieces aso son of reso beaten and cut into pieces kulu son of canko stabbed in the eye with a bayonet musa son of canko bayonet in his eye emin son of molla hamit bayonet in his eye molla abdullah son of hamit bayonet in his eye ibo son of haci bayonet in his eye sado son of haci bayonet in his eye abdullah son of canko slaughtered ibo son of ahmet abdomen ripped open ismail son of ibo burnt in fire musto son of ozu bullets mahmut son of seyyo slaughtered kocak son of birro bullets musto son of husnu bullets uso son of alo bullets maksut son of peri bullets haci son of peri bullets mehmet son of hasanali bayonet ibo son of hasanali bayonet abdo son of mehmed bayonet molla suleyman burnt in oven mazgi son of abdullah stabbed in abdomen by bayonet sulis son of hasan bullets mahmo son of mehmet stabbed with a dagger murat son of hasan stabbed with a dagger uso son of avci blinded with a bayonet lesko son of mehmet stabbed with a dagger abdullah son of kasim bullets coban abdullah bullets seymo son of mumin bullets muammer son of reso bullets paso son of merzi bullets gulu son of bitor bullets murat son of yusuf bullets and bayonet cedo son of haci ibrahim bullets and bayonet faki mehmet bullets and bayonet silo son of abdulcebbar bullets and bayonet list of massacred females from the same village kasi daughter of huso and wife of haci ibrahim bullets fati daughter of isa wife of aduz bullets zeresan daughter of amat wife of reso bayonet gullu daughter of iyso cutting off her breasts sulnu daughter of sulo ripping open her abdomen and burning wife of ibo her baby in oven fatma daughter of ibo slaughtered and burnt in oven fidan hatun burnt in oven gulfizar daughter of hacihan wife of musto slaughtered rahime daughter of mehmet wife of halil bullets binefs daughter of haci kerim wife of suleyman burnt in oven mahiye daughter of ali wife of sivno slaughtered hati daughter of haci wife of ahmet slaughtered hacer daughter of meho bullet and bayonet list of females of the same village raped and murdered nadire daughter of haci wife of suvis hani daughter of kulu wife of zerko zaliha daughter of telli wife of silo arap daughter of sami wife of hilo wounded males and females of the same village a long list list of massacred males and females at istuci village mikail son of alo bullets musto son of ismail bullets dervis son of maksut bullets ali son of nimet bayonet esat son of kelo bayonet and bullets isa son of nebi bayonet and bullets cevher son of gani beaten by rifle butt ziro daughter of hasan died from injuries hazal daughter of ali wife of acem died from injuries hamsa daughter of huseyin wife of huseyin died from injuries list of raped women at istuci village in life sabo daughter of maho virgin miri other daughter of maho virgin emine daughter of meho wife of sofi salih sahap daughter of ali wife of nevruz gullu daughter of mahi virgin list of persons attacked by armenian gangs a long list serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re himmler s speech on the extirpation of the jewish race it is appropriate to add what himmler said other inferior races and human animals in his speech at posen and elsewhere from the speech of reichsfuehrer ss himmler before ss major generals posen october nazi conspiracy and aggression vol iv p one basic principal must be the absolute rule for the ss man we must be honest decent loyal and comradely to members of our own blood and to nobody else what happens to a russian to a czech does not interest me in the slightest what the nations can offer in good blood of our type we will take if necessary by kidnapping their children and raising them with us whether nations live in prosperity or starve to death interests me only in so far as we need them as slaves for our culture otherwise it is of no interest to me whether russian females fall down from exhaustion while digging an anti tank ditch interest me only in so far as the anti tank ditch for germany is finished we shall never be rough and heartless when it is not necessary that is clear we germans who are the only people in the world who have a decent attitude towards animals will also assume a decent attitude towards these human animals but it is a crime against our own blood to worry about them and give them ideals thus causing our sons and grandsons to have a more difficult time with them when someone comes to me and says i cannot dig the anti tank ditch with women and children it is inhuman for it will kill them then i would have to say you are a murderer of your own blood because if the anti tank ditch is not dug german soldiers will die and they are the sons of german mothers they are our own blood extract from himmler s address to party comrades september trials of wa criminals vol iv p if any pole has any sexual dealing with a german woman and by this i mean sexual intercourse then the man will be hanged right in front of his camp then the others will not do it besides provisions will be made that a sufficient number of polish women and girls will come along as well so that a necessity of this kind is out of the question the women will be brought before the courts without mercy and where the facts are not sufficiently proved such borderline cases always happen they will be sent to a concentration camp this we must do unless these one million poles and those hundreds of thousands of workers of alien blood are to inflict untold damage on the german blood philosophizing is of no avail in this case it would be better if we did not have them at all we all know that but we need them danny keren
talk.politics.mideast	re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes in article apr kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes in article apr ee rochester edu terziogl ee rochester edu esin terzioglu writes in article apr urartu sdpa org dbd urartu sdpa org david davidian writes armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes ermenistan kasiniyor let me translate for everyone else before the public traslation service gets into it armenia is getting itchy esin let me clearify mr turkish armenia is not getting itchy she is simply letting the world know that she will no longer sit there quiet and let turks get away with their famous tricks armenians do remember of the turkish invasion of the greek island of cypress while the world simply watched your ignorance is obvious from your posting cyprus was an independent country with turkish greek inhabitants not a greek island like your ignorant posting claims the name should be cyprus in english next time read and learn before you post esin
talk.politics.mideast	re was go hezbollah mafifi eis calstate edu marc a afifi writes let s not forget that the soldiers were killed not murdered the distinction is not trivial murder happens to innocent people not people whose line of work is to kill or be killed it just so happened that these soldiers in the line of duty were killed by the opposition that still doesn t mean we should cheer their deaths policemen are also in the line of fire and their job includes the possibility of getting killed should we be happy when they die as i said before the question is not whether or not you agree with the policies of israel you may wish for the israelis to cease occupation but don t rejoice in death marc ed
talk.politics.mideast	re was go hezbollah amehdi src honeywell com hossien amehdi writes in article c ifh q news cso uiuc edu eshneken ux cso uiuc edu edward a shnekendorf writes what the hell do you know about israeli policy what gives you the fiat to look into the minds of israeli generals has this policy of intimidation been published somewhere for your information the actions taken by arabs specifically the plo were not uncommon in the lebanon campaign of my brain is full of shit at least i don t look into the minds of others and make israeli policy for them deleted i am not in the business of reading minds however in this case it would not be necessary israelis top leaders in the past and present always come across as arrogant with their tough talks trying to intimidate the arabs how would you deal with arabs who always threaten to drive you into the sea or burn half your conuntry would you talk nicely would you say please you wouldn t the language of the middle east is power and force sorry that is the way it is now if you aren t strong you go down israel has to talk and act tough notice israel talks and acts tough in battle but is willing to talk peace the way i see it israelis and arabs have not been able to achieve peace after almost years of fighting because of the following two major reasons arab governments are not really representative of their people currently most of their leaders are stupid and or not independent and or dictators true and they have brainwashed their people into thinking jews are some sort of monsters arab non recognition of israel and support of war and terror is also an important factor wouldn t you say israeli government is arrogant and none comprising what do you want israel to do they are negotating i m sick of people calling for israel to withdraw from the territories now that s not realistic don t you realize that a solution must be negotiated it is on the table have patience ed
talk.politics.mideast	re was go hezbollah in c i j f a eis calstate edu mafifi eis calstate edu marc a afifi writes stssdxb st unocal com dorin baru writes even the most extemist one sided jewish israeli postings with which i certainly disagree did not openly back plain murder you do the lebanese resistance you are talking about is a bunch of lebanese farmers who detonate bombs after work or is an organized entity of not only lebanese well trained mercenaries i do not know just curious i guess you also back the killings of hundreds of marines in beirut right what kind of resistance movement killed jewish attlets in munich you liked it didn t you you posted some other garbage before so at least you seem to be consistent dorin dorin let s not forget that the soldiers were killed not murdered the distinction is not trivial murder happens to innocent people not people whose line of work is to kill or be killed it just so happened that these soldiers in the line of duty were killed by the opposition and resistance is different from terrorism certainly the athletes in munich were victims of terrorists though some might call them freedom fighters and some of us call them murderous bastards but what s in a name their deaths cannot be compared to those of soldiers who are killed by resistance fighters don t forget that it was the french resistance to the nazi occupying forces which eventually succeeded in driving out the hostile occupiers in wwii diplomacy has not worked with israel and the just a damn minute what history books did you read i seem to recall that there were a few british canadian american and commonwealth soldiers in france about that time perhaps you believe they were taking a vacation trip lebanese people are tired of being occupied they are now turning to the only option they see as viable don t forget that it worked in driving out the us sure the lebanese want to get all foreigners out of the country so they can go back to killing each other off marc reb some people are so narrow minded they can see through a crack in a door with both eyes my opinions should be yours my employer has no opinions
talk.politics.mideast	re fundamentalism again in article khan nova khan nova gmi edu mohammad razi khan writes one of my biggest complaints about using the word fundamentalist is that at least in the u s a people speak of muslime fundamentalists muslim but nobody defines what a jewish or christan fundamentalist is i wonder what an equal definition would be any takers well i would go as far as saying that naturei karta are definitely jewish fundamentalists other ultra orthodox jewish groups might very well be though i am hesitant of making such a broad generalization shai guday stealth bombers os software engineer thinking machines corp the winged ninjas of the skies cambridge ma
talk.politics.mideast	re was go hezbollah in article c i j f a eis calstate edu mafifi eis calstate edu marc a afifi writes don t forget that it was the french resistance to the nazi occupying forces which eventually succeeded in driving out the hostile occupiers in wwii actually this is incorrect french resistance may have played some part in hindering the german war effort however the crucial role was supplied on d day diplomacy has not worked with israel and the lebanese people are tired of being occupied they are now turning to the only option they see as viable don t forget that it worked in driving out the us interesting statement especially when you consider that lebanon had claimed to have made progress in the peace talks as well as israel of course one of the prime obstacles to israel s complete withdrawal is the lack of governmental control that can be applied to the area as well as the large presence of syrian forces which have not been asked to withdraw as well shai guday stealth bombers os software engineer thinking machines corp the winged ninjas of the skies cambridge ma
talk.politics.mideast	re enough freeman bashing was no free man propaganda machine freemanwith blood greetings from israel in article c i jg bm eis calstate edu mafifi eis calstate edu marc a afifi writes pgf cunixb cc columbia edu peter garfiel freeman writes peter i believe this is your most succinct post to date since you have nothing to say you say nothing it s brilliant did you think of this all by yourself marc hey tough guy read the topic that s the message get a brain go to a real school
talk.politics.mideast	re turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece armenia azeris tankut iastate edu sabri t atan writes in article c if u ky news cso uiuc edu ptg uxa cso uiuc edu panos tamamidis writes i have nothing against greeks but my problem is with fanatics i have met so many greeks who wouldn t even talk to me because i am turkish from my experience all my friends always were open to greeks well the history wars current situations all of them do not help well panos mr tamamidis the way you put it it is only the turks who bear the responsibility of the things happening today that is hard to believe for somebody trying to be objective well if you put things into historical perspective the turks moved into an area which was inhabited by greeks this is how the history between the two nations started some centuries ago since then it has been a continuous battle between the two nations from my perspective i can t see why i should say that greeks have been responsible for what has happened between the two nations of course it would not be reasonable to argue that the hostility should drag till we kick the turks out of this area this isn t going to happen so the best would be to improve the relations between the two countries a golden oportunity exists with cyprus if things can t work there there isn t any possible way that could work between our nations when it comes to conflicts like our countries having you cannot blame one side only there always are bad guys on both sides what were you doing on anatolia after the ww anyway do you think it was your right to be there i always avoid to discuss such things i consider it a waist of my time besides as i said i do not want to open a new flame i am not saying that conflicts started with that it is only not one side being the aggressive and the ither always suffering it is sad that we both still are not trying to compromise i remember the action of the turkish government by removing the visa requirement for greeks to come to turkey i thought it was a positive attempt to make the relations better i thought it was a smart move to receive more money from greek tourists i bet that this week there should be about tourists from greece in turkey each one will leave at least so go and figure what this means to your economy if you had kept the visa requirement how many greeks would bother to visit turkey the greeks i mentioned who wouldn t talk to me are educated people they have never met me but they know i am bad person because i am from turkey politics is not my business and it is not the business of most of the turks when it comes to individuals why the hatred come on do not extrapolate from your limited personal experience you err if you think you d get a reasonable conclusion tankut atan tankut iastate edu panos tamamidis
talk.politics.mideast	an iranian azeri who would drop an atomic bomb on armenia in article fhm f oduvm bitnet farid fhm f oduvm bitnet writes farid in support of the preservation of the territorial integrity of farid azerbaijan and its independence from russian rule the iranians which farid includes millions of azerbaijanis will have armenia retreat from the farid territory of azerbaijan oh they will this should prove quite interesting farid to count on iranian help to supposedly counter turkish influence will farid be a fatal error on the part of armenia as long as armenia in farid violation of international law has azerbaijani lands in occupation armenia is not counting on iranian help as far as violations of international laws which international law gives azerbaijan the right to attack and depopulate the armenians in karabakh farid if armenian aggression continues in the territory of azerbaijan not farid only there won t be any aid from iran to armenia but also steps will farid be taken to have armenian army back in armenia and who do you speak for rafsanjani farid the azerbaijanis of iran will be the guarantors of this policy as for farid scaring iranians or turks from the russian power experts on present farid and future military potentials of these people would not put much farid stock on the russain power as the sole power in the region for long well farid your supposed experts are not expert the russians have had non stop influence in the caucasus since the treaty of turkmanchay in hmm that makes it years oh i see the azeris from iran are going to force out the armenians from karabakh that will be a real good trick farid iran is not alian to developing the capability to produce the a bomb farid and a reliable delivery system refer to recent news releases farid regarding the potential of iran so the azeris from iran are going to force the armenians from karabakh by forcing the iranian government to drop an atomic bomb on these armenians farid the moral of the story is that you don t go invading your neighbor s farid home azerbaijan and flash russia s guns when questioned about it oh but it s just fine if you drop an atomic bomb on your neighbor you are a damn fool farid farid marshal shapashnikov may have to eat his words regarding turkey in a farid few short years so you are going to drop an atomic bomb on russia as well farid peaceful resolution of the armenian azerbaijani conflict is the only farid way to go armenia may soon find the fruits of aggression very bitter farid indeed and the armenians will take your peaceful dropping of an atomic bomb as an example of iranian azeri benevolence you sir are a poor example of an iranian azeri ha and to think i had a nice two day stay in tabriz back in david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
talk.politics.mideast	re turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece armenia azeris in article c i rk l i news cso uiuc edu msg uxa cso uiuc edu michalis syrimis writes any concentration labor camp in turkey around or later for cypriot greeks or any greeks rather than talking nonsense like above i will be glad to read what they got how can you be in a position to know about any kind of concentration camps akgun living through those days at the age of and following the internal and external news gives me that knowledge and position in turkey had a democratic goverment and free press at that time forget about internal news agencies i haven t heard anything from any international source about any concentration camps with greek cypriot prisoners in turkey however i heard adana pow camp it was not secret and well recognized pow camp as for all the registered prisoners to the red cross having returned to their homes this is your version of the story there are cases in which prisoners who were registered some of them even sent messages to their relatives were not released these are undeniable facts i see they vanished in turkish labor camps turks have decided to acknowledge their existence first but later changed their minds releasing them is that it what do you think happened to them i thought that mia s are only the subject of rambo and chuck noris movies seems that i am wrong as for their treatment being according to what convention okay we believe you you don t need to belive me turkiye was never a clandestine state in its history it has been a respected and continuous member of un since the inception of un no body ever questioned the un membership of turkey because of what had happened in a and after only a short lived arms embargo was imposed unilaterally by usa to satisfy the internal greek loby i know what you would say next let me answer it before wasting anytime yes un had a few condemning resolutions against turkey because of handling the cyprus problem especially after the coup well us and israel had a few too what can i say i am sure during athens junta duruing greeks had their own share too closed matter today between turkish cypriots turks greeks greek cypriots there is no more any official demand from greek cypriots about any missing greek cypriots where have you heard that there is no official demand regarding the missing persons have you looked at the latest un agenda for cyprus talks mediated by gali there was no issue whatsoever about any missing people among the negotiating parties was there i heard many times from denktas interviews by turkish and international press he keeps saying that this was no longer an issue for peace talks also you don t want me fish for the greek cypriot politician s words that argic had posted zillion times describing missing peoples as a greek cypriot myth seems that there is a different opinions among greek cypriots as well about missing people in turkish custody your claim that the majority of the missing persons were infact killed in the period between the coup d eta and the invasion days is simply not true all the cases of missing persons i know and i know quite a few are cases of people who were either in the reserve forces and were lost somewhere in the battlefield or were civilians who were taken prisoners in their villages by the turkish army i am not claiming anything i just told you what was given to greek cypriots as an answer by turkish goverment turkish cypriots when they wanted to locate some of their own between july and the final cease fire in late august this answer seems to satisfy the international community the un and the vasilu goverment since he did not make it an issue for the peace talks also i am not aware of any un condemnation against turkey about any missing greek cypriot are you btw do you mean that nicos sampson had a bloodless coup d eta and nobody got hurt in those events as of the few photos which you refer to there are more than a few there are photos not only of greek cypriot soldiers being rounded up but also others in the prison camp in turkey like i said before there is even a different opinion among greek cypriots for this myth the officers in turkish army who governed the adana pow camp must be hell of clever dudes to cover up their tracks i hope turkish army does t have same type of morons for the security of turkiye however this must a good subject for a movie script one should inform oliver stone about this of course not the justice was served well if and when the bosnian pleas are answered who s going to dare to ask what happens to those masterminds behind the ethnic cleansing idea they are known today as eoka b masterminds were known in to everybody and are doing it openly even giving tv interviews it may take same time as it was for the eoka b case however the justice will be served again akgun comparing the actions of the serbians in bosnian with the actions of turkey in cyprus is not something i would do if i were a turk i thought that the serbians were the savages the inhumane beasts etc etc c akgun michalis syrimis if this is what you understood from the paragraph above you better let your computer system administrator check the character conversion tables in your system if yours are ok i should inform mine c akgun
talk.politics.mideast	re reasons was re was go hezbollah in article apr unocal com stssdxb st unocal com dorin baru writes now about tough talk and arrogance we are adults aren t we do you listen to tough talk of american politicians or switch the channel i guess i didn t make my point clear in the case of israel government it is not only tough talk for its intimidation policy after all not many people are intimidated just by talking here how it goes tough talks followed by aggressive actions followed by taking pride of those actions and bragging about them
talk.politics.mideast	re deriving pleasure from death them by the way i do not applaud the killing of any human being including prisoners sentenced to death by our illustrious justice department peace marc boy you really are a stupid person our justice department does not sentence people to death that s up to state courts again get a brain
talk.politics.mideast	re was go hezbollah i will try to answer some of dorin s questions even though they were not addressed to me specifically but i feel that i am a bit concerned by the thread since i am a southern lebanese from a village that is often on the receiving end of israel s bombs in the first place the death of three soldiers on a patrol in occupied lebanese terrritory is not an act of terrorism or murder it is disingeneous to compare their death to that of athletes in munich or any other act of terrorism or mrder this exercise is aimed solely at diverting the issue and is far from the truth it seems to me dorin that you are so remote and ignorant of the problem on the ground that your comments can only be charactrized as irrelevant and heavily colored by the preconceptions and misinformation i will try to paint the most accurate picture i can of what the situation really is in south lebanon in article apr unocal com stssdxb st unocal com dorin baru writes is there any israeli a civilian in your opinion now i do not condone myself bombing villages any kind of villages but you claim these are villages with civilians and iraelis claim they are camps filled with terrorists you claim that israelis shell the villages with the hope of finding a terrorist or so if they kill one fine if not too bad civilians die right i am not so sure i am i was back in my home village this last summer for your information we are people not a bunch of indiscriminate terrorists most of the people in my village are regular inhabitants that go about their daily business some work in the fields some own small shops others are older men that go to the coffe shop and drink coffee is that so hard to imagine it is not a terrorist camp as you and the israelis like to view the villages they are small communities with kids playing soccer in the streets women preparing lunch men playing cards etc some young men usually aged between to years are members of the lebanese resistance even the inhabitants of the village do not know who these are they are secretive about it but most people often suspect who they are and what they are up to these young men are supported financially by iran most of the time they sneak arms and ammunitions into the occupied zone where they set up booby traps for israeli patrols every time an israeli soldier is killed or injured by these traps israel retalliates by indiscriminately bombing villages of their own choosing often killing only innocent civilians once they are back they announce that they bombed a terrorist hideout where an year old girl just happened to be we are now accustomed to israeli tactics and we figure that this is the israeli way of telling us that if you re gonna hurt our soldiers you re gonna pay the price we accept this as a price we have to pay to free our land israel knows very well that it is not really hurting the resistance that much militarily with these strikes but rather just keeping the pressure on the villagers to demand from their young men to stop attacking israeli soldiers since these attacks are taking a heavy toll on the lives of the civilian villagers israel s retalliation policy is cold hearted but a reality that we have come to accept and deal with the lebanese resistance on the other hand is not going to stop its attacks on occupying israeli soldiers until they withdraw this is the only real leverage that they have to force israel to withdraw the people of south lebanon are occupied or shelled by israel on a regular basis we do not want to be occupied if israel insists that the so called security zone is necessary for the protection of northern israel than it will have to pay the price of its occupation with the blood of its soldiers if israel is interested in peace than it should withdraw from our land we are not asking for the establishment of a lebanese occupied zone in northern israel to protect our villages that are attacked on a regular basis by israel so the best policy seems to be the removal of israeli occupation and the establishment of peace keeping troops along the border i have written before on this very newsgroup that the only real solution will come as a result of a comprehensive peace settlement whereby israel withdraws to its own borders and peace keeping troops are stationed along the border to insure no one on either side of the border is shelled this is the only realistic solution it is time for israel to realize that the concept of a buffer zone aimed at protecting its northern cities has failed in fact it has caused much more israeli deaths than the occasional shelling of northern israel would have resulted in if israel really wants to save some israeli lives it would withdraw unilaterally from the so called security zone before the conclusion of the peace talks such a move would save israeli lives advance peace efforts give israel a great moral lift better israel s public image abroad and give it an edge in the peace negociations since israel can rightly claim that it is genuinely interested in peace and has already offered some important concessions along with such a withdrawal israel could demand that hizbollah be disarmed by the lebanese government and warn that it will not accept any attacks against its northern cities and that if such a shelling occurs than it will consider re taking the buffer zone and will hold the lebanese and syrian government responsible for it there seems to be very little incentive for the syrian and lebanese goovernment to allow hizbollah to bomb israel proper under such circumstances and now the lebanese government has proven that it is capable of controlling and disarming all militias as they did in all other parts of lebanon if you ask me those questions i will have no problem answering not with a question as you did no nobody is qualified candidate for murder nothing justifies murder i agree only in the case of the isareli soldiers their killing cannot be qualified as murder no matter what you say i have the feeling that you may be able yourself to make similar statements maybe after eliminating all israelis jews am i wrong yes we have no quarrel with jews or israeli civilians the real problem is with occupying israeli soldiers and those brave israeli pilots that bomb our civilian villages every time an occupying soldier is attacked dorin basil
talk.politics.mideast	re serdar argic in apr fourd com bill paxton fourd com writes hello serdar i would like very much to meet you where are you located let me know as soon as possible where we can meet i am looking forward to meeting you i don t know how to reach serdar but you might be able to reach his sysadmin by email phone or snail mail here is information from rs internic net ahmet cosar anatolia dom s th st suite c minneapolis minnesota domain name anatolia org administrative contact technical contact zone contact cosar ahmet ac cosar anatolia org and here is what finger cosar umn edu gets you name ahmet cosar info last registered winter qtr internet mailbox cosa student tc umn edu other mailbox profs cosa umntcml postal address so th st apt c minneapolis mn surname cosar telephone title grad userid cosa x mailbox g ahmet s cosar ou mail o tc prmd umn edu admd c us warren nysernet org
talk.politics.mideast	warsaw ghetto uprising th anniversary a visitor s abc original message d sb mincha tish a yamim la omer yom chamishi y d b nisan thshn g universita varsha b varsha galut hamara meod shalom all those of you visiting the ghetto city these days might be interested in the following events timetable abridged fri th april kabbalat shabbat service at the nozyk shul twarda street warsaw a mins walk from the palace of science culture the tallest building in the city s centre the same distance from the central railway station sat th april shacharit l shabbat service nozyk shul sun th april the fallen ones memorial service nozyk shul sun th april memorial ceremony at the jewish cemetery okopowa street warsaw sun th april official arts programme at the congress hall a building adjacent to the palace of science culture which like the shul is located a quarter s walk from most of downtown hotels bristol forum victoria europejski holiday inn marriott mon th april laying of wreaths at the ghetto heros monument shabbat shalom ul hitraot b varsha shelomoh slawek zieniuk student univ of warsaw dept of hebrew warsaw ani shalom v khi adaber hema lamilchama tehillim q k z guest e mail account plearn bitnet
talk.politics.mideast	re go hezbollah congratulations also are due to the hamas activists who blew up the world trade center no after all with every american that they put in the grave they are underlining the usa s bankrupt imperialist policies go hamas blah blah blah blah blah brad you are only asking that that violence that you love so much come back to haunt you nissan
talk.politics.mideast	re fundamentalism again ok someone is fundamentalist someone else is not what defines a fundamentalist not who that is an essential question which nobody has agreed upon an answer at least to what literature discussion news i ve seen mohammad r khan khan nova gmi edu after july please send mail to mkhan nyx cs du edu
talk.politics.mideast	re go hezbollah in article c hiyr news cso uiuc edu eshneken ux cso uiuc edu edward a shnekendorf writes brad you re a very sick son of a bitch wishing for someone s death even if they are your enemy is very deranged i really have pity for you and those like you did you acquire this philosophy from islam brad hernlem hernlem chess ncsu edu ed this is an interesting question to ponder did brad ali s sickness make ayatollah style islam attractive to him or did this new religion that brad ali has formally adopted give him this sickness jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	re was go hezbollah in article c i j f a eis calstate edu mafifi eis calstate edu marc a afifi writes diplomacy has not worked with israel of course it hasn t besides egypt the rest of the arab world still officially denies that israel exists and the lebanese people are tired of being occupied they are now turning to the only option they see as viable kick out syria don t forget that it worked in driving out the us american occupied lebanon that s a new one on me jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	re was go hezbollah in article apr ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu brad hernlem writes hezbollah and other lebanese resistance fighters are skilled at precision bombing of sla and israeli targets it s hard to beat a car bomb with a suicidal driver in getting right up to the target before blowing up even booby traps and radio controlled bombs under cars are pretty efficient killers you have a point i find such methods to be far more restrained and responsible is this part of your islamic value system than the israeli method of shelling and bombing villages with the hope that a hezbollah member will be killed along with the civilians murdered had israeli methods been anything like this then iraq wouldn ve been nuked long ago entire arab towns deported and executions performed by the tens of thousands the fact is though that israeli methods aren t even th as evil as those which are common and everyday in arab states soldiers are trained to die for their country three idf soldiers did their duty the other day these men need not have died if their government had kept them on israeli soil israeli soil brad ali just wait until the ayatollah s thought police get wind of this it s all holy muslim soil tm have you forgotten may allah have mercy on you now brad hernlem hernlem chess ncsu edu jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	re deriving pleasure from death peter garfiel freeman writes them by the way i do not applaud the killing of any human being including prisoners sentenced to death by our illustrious justice department peace marc boy you really are a stupid person our justice department does not sentence people to death that s up to state courts again get a brain peter i think you are ridiculous here stupidity is not a measure of how well someone knows our judicial system i guess marc meant that he is against death penalty but no matter what he meant your statement not justified regards dorin
talk.politics.mideast	re news briefs from kh in article qg gdinnge anaconda cis ohio state edu karbasi cis ohio state edu writes nehzat e aazaadee s member have many times been arrested and tortured and as we speak some of them are still in prison the above item confirms the long standing suspicion that the only reason this regime has not destroyed nehzat e aazaadee completely is just to show off and brag about the freedom of expression in iran in its propaganda paper get serious if this regime had its way there would be absolutely no freedom of expression anywhere not even in sci there really isnt as seen by the heavy usage of anonymous posting if iri sympathizers didnt roam around in sci anon poster would get used only occasionally as in the good old days
talk.politics.mideast	re reasons was re was go hezbollah hossien amehdi writes in article apr unocal com stssdxb st unocal com dorin baru writes now about tough talk and arrogance we are adults aren t we do you listen to tough talk of american politicians or switch the channel i guess i didn t make my point clear in the case of israel government it is not only tough talk for its intimidation policy after all not many people are intimidated just by talking here how it goes tough talks followed by aggressive actions followed by taking pride of those actions and bragging about them agressive actions are taken by both sides tough talk is done by both sides when an arab leader is menacing to throw all jews in the water is also tough talk i think and killing people is mildly agressive justified in your opinion if they are israeli soldiers justified in others opinion if they are jews not justified at all in others opinion when brad wrote the article about israelis killed ther was a lot of pride and satisfaction in his lines that s what i feel disgusting we may agree or not when a killing is technically murder but being enthousiastic about it and again i may appreciate some of your points but you are not objective that is not a blame just a remark dorin
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli expansion lust in article apr bnr ca zbib bnr ca writes in article apr das harvard edu adam endor uucp adam shostack writes in article apr bnr ca zbib bnr ca writes imho it does not really matter who started any individual battle within the arabs isreal war context the real question is who what started the war does anyone have any doubts it was the creation of israel on arab land huh a war was started when several armies invaded israel vowing to drive the jews into the sea most jews wanted to live in peace and the arabs who stayed in israel were granted citizenship i am surprised that you don t consider the acquisition of land by the jews from arabs for the purpose of establishing an exclusive state as a hostile action leading to war it was for the purpose of establishing a state not an exclusive state if the state was to be exclusive it would not have arab citizens and no i do not consider the purchase of land a hostile action when someone wants to buy land and someone else is willing to sell it at a mutually agreeable price then that is commerce it is not a hostile action leading to war as to whether the jews wanted to live in peace maybe however they wanted and still want an exclusively jewish state where jews are in control and jews are the masters of the land living in peace is meaningless unless it means living with someone else as equal for a native arab this does not leave many options oh you mean like both jews and arabs being citizens the arabs who stayed are now citizens with as much right to choose who they vote for as the jews those palestinians who stayed actually stayed despite of what happened and their number was somewhat tolerated as a defenseless and ineffective minority if i were wrong you d have israel recall all the palestinian refugees we re talking millions after all they are civilians huh the people who left did so voluntarily there is no reason for israel to let them in israel gave citizenship to the remaining arabs because it had to maintain a democratic facade to keep the western aid flowing israel got no western aid in nor in or it still granted citizenship to those arabs who remained and how is granting citizenship a facade tell me something sam what makes land arab how shall i explain its a contract between the man and the land control isn t it the ottomans ruled years and then left with barely a trace the concept of land identity is somewhat foreign to the mobile and pragmatic west it is partly the concept of le sol natal native soil i know that jews had previous history in the region but none in recent memory i m talking everyday life not archeology try again you tell me what its isn t but you fail to establish what it is also jews did have history in israel for over a thousand years there were lots of jews slaughtered by crusaders in israel there was a thriving community in gaza city from roughly jews were a majority in jerusalem from or so onwards does that make the land jewish adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
talk.politics.mideast	arafat re sampson in article copper denver colorado edu aaldoubo copper denver colorado edu shaqeeqa writes in article apr colorado edu perlman qso colorado edu eric s perlman writes perhaps though one can argue about whether or not the current palestinian delegation represents the plo i would hope it does not as the plo really doesn t have that kind of legitimacy does it matter to you naftaly adam and others that arafat advises the delegation and that the plo overall supports it does it also matter that arafat on behalf of the plo recognizes israel and its right to exist further does israel s new policy concerning direct negotiations with the plo hold any substance to the situation as a whole no he does not arafat explicitly denies this claim from a libyan televison interview with yasser arafat q some people say that the palestinian revolution has many times changed its strategies and tactics something which has left its imprint on the palestinian problem and on the palestinian liberation front the strategies and tactics have not been clear the question is is the direction of the palestinian problem clear the palestinian leadership has stopped or at least this is what has been said in the media this happened on the way to the dialogue with the united states the plo recognized something called israel a no no no we do not recognize the state of israel we said recognition when a palestinian state is established it will then decide if to recognize israel or not when it is established its parliament will convene and decide policies which it can justify through occupation because of this you have the grassroot movements that reject israel s authority and disregard for human rights and if israel was serious about peace it would abandon these policies and replace them with what if israel is to withdraw its control of any territory there must be two prerequsites one is that it leads to a reduction in deaths the second is that it should not weaken israels bargianing position with respect to peace talks leaving gaza unilateraly is a bad idea because it encourages arabs to think they can get what they want by killing jews the only way israel should pull out of gaza is at the end of negotiations these negotiations should lead to a mutually agreeable solution with security guarantees for both sides until arabs are ready to sit down at the table and talk again they should not expect or recieve more concessions adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
talk.politics.mideast	re fundamentalism again in article khan nova khan nova gmi edu mohammad razi khan writes one of my biggest complaints about using the word fundamentalist is that at least in the u s a people speak of muslime fundamentalists muslim but nobody defines what a jewish or christan fundamentalist is i wonder what an equal definition would be any takers the american press routinely uses the word fundamentalist to refer to both christians and jews christian fundementalists are often refered to in the context of anti abortion protests the american media also uses fundamentalist to refer to jews who live in judea samaria or gaza and to any jew who follows the torah adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
talk.politics.mideast	re deriving pleasure from death with regards to my condemnation of marc s ridiculous attacks on the american department of justice and further attacks on jews to anyone who took offense to my calling marc stupid i apologize for pointing out the obvious it was a waste of the net s time i hope though that most american citizens have the basic knowlege of the structure of american government to understand the relationship between the justice department as a part of the executive branch and the courts which are of the judicial branch marc s ignorance of basic civic knowlege underscores his inability to comprehend and interpret foreign affairs peace pete
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli expansion lust in article apr bnr ca zbib bnr ca writes now if actions of the lebanese resistance help send the isrealis packing i m all for it if you are really concerned about bloodshed a little self criticism could do you a great favor one of these days you ll learn that the way to stop israel from fighting back is to stop attacking if there were no attacks in the security zone for a year because the lebanese army could maintain the peace then lebanon would be in much better shape tell me something though why do syrian troops not get attacked aren t they occupying lebanon israel has repeatedly stated that it will leave on two conditions one is a demonstration that the lebanese army can keep the peace the second is that the syrians pull out as well adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
talk.politics.mideast	re was go hezbollah in article c i j f a eis calstate edu mafifi eis calstate edu marc a afifi writes resistance fighters don t forget that it was the french resistance to the nazi occupying forces which eventually succeeded in driving out the hostile occupiers in wwii and all this time i thought it was the us britian invading normandy the constant round the clock bombing and the fact that the germans were fighting on two fronts how silly of me this is not to devalue the actions of the resistance movements but resistance movements did not defeat the nazis diplomacy has not worked with israel and the lebanese people are tired of being occupied they are now turning to the only option they see as viable don t forget that it worked in driving out the us israel has repeatedly stated that it will leave when the lebanese government shows that it can prevent attacks on israel and when the syrians agree to leave the lebanese have not tried diplomacy for very long or maybe they re not capable of getting rid of the syrians and iranians who occupy their land if they closed down the hezbolah and negotiated a withdrawl of syrian forces israel would be happy to leave adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
talk.politics.mideast	re was go hezbollah in article apr yuma acns colostate edu bh lance colostate edu writes most of brads post deleted we have come to accept and deal with the lebanese resistance on the other hand is not going to stop its attacks on occupying israeli soldiers until they withdraw this is the only real leverage that they have to force israel to withdraw tell me do these young men also attack syrian troops with the blood of its soldiers if israel is interested in peace than it should withdraw from our land there must be a guarantee of peace before this happens it seems that many of these lebanese youth are unable to restrain themselves from violence and unable to to realize that their actions prolong israels stay in south lebanon if the lebanese army was able to maintain the peace then israel would not have to be there until it is israel prefers that its soldiers die rather than its children if israel really wants to save some israeli lives it would withdraw unilaterally from the so called security zone before the conclusion of the peace talks such a move would save israeli lives advance peace efforts give israel a great moral lift better israel s public image abroad and give it an edge in the peace negociations since israel can rightly claim that it is genuinely interested in peace and has already offered some important concessions israel should withdraw from lebanon when a peace treaty is signed not a day before withdraw because of casualties would tell the lebanese people that all they need to do to push israel around is kill a few soldiers its not gonna happen along with such a withdrawal israel could demand that hizbollah be disarmed by the lebanese government and warn that it will not accept any attacks against its northern cities and that if such a shelling occurs than it will consider re taking the buffer zone and will hold the lebanese and syrian government responsible for it why should israel not demand this while holding the buffer zone it seems to me that the better bargaining position is while holding your neighbors land if lebanon were willing to agree to those conditions israel would quite probably have left already unfortunately it doesn t seem that the lebanese can disarm the hizbolah and maintain the peace adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
talk.politics.mideast	re was go hezbollah in article apr yuma acns colostate edu bh lance colostate edu writes it is not a terrorist camp as you and the israelis like to view the villages they are small communities with kids playing soccer in the streets women preparing lunch men playing cards etc some young men usually aged between to years are members of the lebanese resistance even the inhabitants of the village do not know who these are they are secretive about it but most people often suspect who they are and what they are up to these young men are supported financially by iran most of the time they sneak arms and ammunitions into the occupied zone where they set up booby traps for israeli patrols every time an israeli soldier is killed or injured by these traps israel retalliates by indiscriminately bombing villages of their own choosing often killing only innocent civilians this a tried and true method utilized by guerilla and terrorists groups to conduct operations in the midst of the local populace thus forcing the opposing state to possible harm innocent civilians in their search or in order to avoid the deaths of civilians abandon the search certainly the people who use the population for cover are also to blaim for dragging the innocent civilians into harm s way are you suggesting that when guerillas use the population for cover israel should totally back down so the easiest way to get away with attacking another is to use an innocent as a shield and hope that the other respects innocent lives if israel insists that the so called security zone is necessary for the protection of northern israel than it will have to pay the price of its occupation with the blood of its soldiers your damn right israel insists on some sort of demilitarized or buffer zone its had to put up with too many years of attacks from the territory of arab states and watched as the states did nothing it is not exactly surprizing that israel decided that the only way to stop such actions is to do it themselves if israel is interested in peace than it should withdraw from our land what so the whole bit about attacks on israel from neighboring arab states can start all over again while i also hope for this to happen it will only occur when arab states show that they are prepared to take on the responsibility and the duty to stop guerilla attacks on israel from their soil they have to prove it or provide some guaratees there is no way israel is going to accept their word not with their past attitude of tolerance towards anti israel guerillas in residence i have written before on this very newsgroup that the only real solution will come as a result of a comprehensive peace settlement whereby israel withdraws to its own borders and peace keeping troops are stationed along the border to insure no one on either side of the border is shelled good lord brad what in the world goves you the idea that un troops stop anything they are only stationed in a country because that country allows them in it can ask them to leave at any time as nasser did in and somehow with that limitation on the troops powers i don t think that israel is going to be any more comfortable without a genuine commitment to peace from the arab states and concrete not intellectual or political exercises in jargon guarantees by other parties the un is worthless to israel but perhaps useful as a ruse this is the only realistic solution it is time for israel to realize that the concept of a buffer zone aimed at protecting its northern cities has failed in fact it has caused much more israeli deaths than the occasional shelling of northern israel would have resulted in perhaps you are aware that to most communities of people there is the feeling that it is better that many of us die fighting against those who attack us than for few to die while we silently accept our fate if however you call on israel to see the sense of suffering fewer casualties i suggest you apply the same to palestinian arab and islamic groups if israel really wants to save some israeli lives it would withdraw unilaterally from the so called security zone before the conclusion of the peace talks such a move would save israeli lives advance peace efforts give israel a great moral lift better israel s public image abroad and give it an edge in the peace negociations since israel can rightly claim that it is genuinely interested in peace and has already offered some important concessions along with such a withdrawal israel could demand that hizbollah be disarmed by the lebanese government and warn that it will not accept any attacks against its northern cities and that if such a shelling occurs than it will consider re taking the buffer zone and will hold the lebanese and syrian government responsible for it from israel s perspective concessions gets it nothing except the realization that it has given something up and now can only hope that the other side decides to do likewise words can be taken back by merely doing so to take back tangible items land control of land requires the sort of action you say israel should stay away from israel put up with attacks from arab state territories for decades before essentially putting a stop to it through its invasion of lebanon the entire basis of that reality was exactly as you state above israel would express outrage at these attacks and protest to the arab state involved that state promptly ignored the entire matter secure in the knowledge that it could not be held responsible for the acts committed by private groups israel would prepare for the next round of attacks what would israel want to return to those days and don t be so idiotic as to suggest trust for the motivations of present day arab states there seems to be very little incentive for the syrian and lebanese goovernment to allow hizbollah to bomb israel proper under such circumstances ah ok what is different about the present situation that tells us that the arab states will not pursue their past antagonistic policies towards israel now don t talk about vague political factors but about those tangible just like that which israel gave up factors that guarantee the responsibility of those states your assessment of difference here is based on a whole lot of assumptions and most states don t feel confortable basing their existence on that sort of thing and now the lebanese government has proven that it is capable of controlling and disarming all militias as they did in all other parts of lebanon basil it has not without the support and active involvement of syria lebanon would not have been able to accomplish all that has occurred once syria leaves who is to say that lebanon will be able to retain control if syria stays thay may be even more dangerous for israel tim your view of this entire matter is far too serenely one sided and selectively naive
talk.politics.mideast	re was go hezbollah in article apr yuma acns colostate edu bh longs lance colostate edu basil hamdan writes snip in the first place the death of three soldiers on a patrol in occupied lebanese terrritory is not an act of terrorism or murder it is disingeneous to compare their death to that of athletes in munich or any other act of terrorism or mrder this exercise is aimed solely at diverting the issue and is far from the truth i agree that the death of three soldiers on a patrol etc is not terrorism that having been said lets continue snip imagine it is not a terrorist camp as you and the israelis like to view the villages they are small communities with kids playing soccer in the streets women preparing lunch men playing cards etc i would not argue that all or even most of the villages are terrorist camps there are however some which come very close to serving that purpose and that is not to say that other did not function in that way prior to the invasion some young men usually aged between to years are members of the lebanese resistance even the inhabitants of the village do not know who these are they are secretive about it but most people often suspect who they are and what they are up to these young men are supported financially by iran most of the time they sneak arms and ammunitions into the occupied zone where they set up booby traps for israeli patrols every time an israeli soldier is killed or injured by these traps israel retalliates by indiscriminately bombing villages of their own choosing often killing only innocent civilians once they are back they announce that they bombed a terrorist hideout where an year old girl just happened to be some of the villages and yours might well be among them are as you describe not all are there are a large number of groups in the area backed by various organizations with a wide range of purposes hizbollah and amal were two of the larger ones and may still be as to retaliation while mistakes may be made that is still a far cry from indiscriminate bombing which would have produced major casualties israel s retalliation policy is cold hearted but a reality that we have come to accept and deal with the lebanese resistance on the other hand is not going to stop its attacks on occupying israeli soldiers until they withdraw this is the only real leverage that they have to force israel to withdraw well here we disagree i think that israel would willingly withdraw if the lebanese gov t was able to field a reliable force in the area to police it and prevent further attacks this is the only realistic solution it is time for israel to realize that the concept of a buffer zone aimed at protecting its northern cities has failed in fact it has caused much more israeli deaths than the occasional shelling of northern israel would have resulted in actually that is not clear at all i will agree that the death toll is no longer civilian and now primarily military though there seems to be very little incentive for the syrian and lebanese goovernment to allow hizbollah to bomb israel proper under such circumstances and now the lebanese government has proven that it is capable of controlling and disarming all militias as they did in all other parts of lebanon no the syrian gov t is more than happy to have israel sink into another lebanese morass i could elaborate if necessary i agree only in the case of the isareli soldiers their killing cannot be qualified as murder no matter what you say no but it is regretable as is the whole situation shai guday stealth bombers os software engineer thinking machines corp the winged ninjas of the skies cambridge ma
talk.politics.mideast	re was go hezbollah on apr gmt amehdi src honeywell com hossien amehdi said in article apr src honeywell com amehdi src honeywell com hossien amehdi writes who is the you arabs here since you are replying to my article you are assuming that i am an arab well i m not an arab but i think you are brain is full of shit if you really believe what you said the bombardment of civilian and none civilian areas in lebanon by israel is very consistent with its policy of intimidation that is the only policy that has been practiced by the so called only democracy in the middle east i was merley pointing out that the other side is also suffering like i said i m not an arab but if i was say a lebanese you bet i would defende my homeland against any invader by any means the syrians iranian agents or just israeli invaders gary bradski i net bradski park bu edu reverberate cognitive and neural systems boston university v v cummington st boston ma y i don t even agree with some of my opinions or die
talk.politics.mideast	it is sickening to think that the armenians are capable of such in article apr sol ctr columbia edu halsall murray fordham edu paul halsall writes it s curious that serdar spend his time attacking greeks and armenians who just happen to be historical opponents of turkey the because the x soviet armenian government got away with the genocide of million turkish men women and children and is enjoying the fruits of that genocide and they are doing it again are you so blind problem is everybody arab greek bulgar serb russian tartar circassian persian kurd is or has been an opponent who has been kurds r us armenians r not an ally this historic circumstance seems to have taken a certain toll on serdar perhaps he should be posting to alt raving nationalist rather than soc history excuse me we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the tartars and then proceeded in the work of extermination our troops surrounded village after village little resistance was offered our artillery knocked the huts into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable and inhabitants fled from them into fields bullets and bayonets completed the work some of the tartars escaped of course they found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border into turkey the rest were killed and so it is that the whole length of the borderland of russian armenia from nakhitchevan to akhalkalaki from the hot plains of ararat to the cold mountain plateau of the north were dotted with mute mournful ruins of tartar villages they are quiet now those villages except for howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the scattered bones of the dead ohanus appressian men are like that p a genocide is a deliberate and organized massacre of people in an attempt to exterminate a race this is the worst crime in history it happened to the turks in eastern anatolia and the armenian dictatorship million turks and kurds were killed in the worst ways imaginable it is sickening to think that the human race is capable of such actions but there is no denying the fact that the armenian genocide of million muslims happened people of turkiye deeply sympathize with those whose relatives were killed in the turkish genocide i understand their anger that there are those who still deny that the turkish genocide indeed took place despite the fact that the genocide of million turks has been well documented over the past six decades we cannot reverse the events of the past but we can and we must strive to keep the memory of this tragedy alive on this side of the atlantic so as to help prevent a recurrence of the extermination of a people because of their religion or their race source bristol papers general correspondence container bristol to bradley letter of september i have it from absolute first hand information that the armenians in the caucasus attacked tartar turkish villages that are utterly defenseless and bombarded these villages with artillery and they murder the inhabitants pillage the village and often burn the village lets get somethings straight why not armenians are no angels but they were subject to turkish genocide and the germans were subject to jewish genocide are you for real tell me halsall were you high on asala sdpa arf forgeries and fabrications when you wrote that where is your non existent list of scholars here is mine during the first world war and the ensuing years the armenian dictatorship through a premeditated and systematic genocide tried to complete its centuries old policy of annihilation against the turks and kurds by savagely murdering million muslims and deporting the rest from their year homeland the attempt at genocide is justly regarded as the first instance of genocide in the th century acted upon an entire people this event is incontrovertibly proven by historians government and international political leaders such as u s ambassador mark bristol william langer ambassador layard james barton stanford shaw arthur chester john dewey robert dunn papazian nalbandian ohanus appressian jorge blanco villalta general nikolayef general bolkovitinof general prjevalski general odiselidze meguerditche kazimir motayef twerdokhlebof general hamelin rawlinson avetis aharonian dr stephan eshnanie varandian general bronsart arfa dr hamlin boghos nubar sarkis atamian katchaznouni rachel bortnick halide edip mccarthy w b allen paul muratoff and many others j c hurewitz professor of government emeritus former director of the middle east institute columbia university bernard lewis cleveland e dodge professor of near eastern history princeton university halil inalcik university professor of ottoman history member of the american academy of arts sciences university of chicago peter golden professor of history rutgers university newark stanford shaw professor of history university of california at los angeles thomas naff professor of history director middle east research institute university of pennsylvania ronald jennings associate professor of history asian studies university of illinois howard reed professor of history university of connecticut dankwart rustow distinguished university professor of political science city university graduate school new york john woods associate professor of middle eastern history university of chicago john masson smith jr professor of history university of california at berkeley alan fisher professor of history michigan state university avigdor levy professor of history brandeis university andreas g e bodrogligetti professor of history university of california at los angeles kathleen burrill associate professor of turkish studies columbia university roderic davison professor of history george washington university walter denny professor of history university of massachusetts caesar farah professor of history university of minnesota tom goodrich professor of history indiana university of pennsylvania tibor halasi kun professor emeritus of turkish studies columbia university justin mccarthy professor of history university of louisville jon mandaville professor of history portland state university oregon robert olson professor of history university of kentucky madeline zilfi professor of history university of maryland james stewart robinson professor of turkish studies university of michigan so the list goes on and on and on now wait there is more mark alan epstein the ottoman jewish communities and their role in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries klaus schwarz werlag freiburg page during the fifteenth century when the ottomans were struggling to reestablish themselves in the balkans there was considerable turmoil among the jewish communities in central and western europe even if the difficulties of the darker centuries immediately preceding the fourteenth are minimized it is easy to understand the attraction which ottoman life particularly when compared to life in europe held for the jews there is no way to tell how many jews left christendom for the realm of the rising muslim ottomans but with each account of persecution in or expulsion from christian countries it is recorded that some jews fled to ottoman territory the regularity of these reports suggests that the ottomans were considered reasonably tolerant protectors and that there was a regular trickle of jewish families moving southward and eastward from western and central europe it is evident that the effects of plague late crusades and the general intolerance and persecution of jews in christian europe resulted in the redirection of the whole focus of jewish life which for more than two centuries was to be oriented toward muslim east page in the second quarter of the fifteenth century the foremost official in the edirne jewish community was rabbi yitzhak sarfati the ashkenazi chief rabbi of the city he was the most important rabbi in the city and the author of an important letter which tells us something of the situation of the edirne jewry in the fifteenth century sarfati himself was from christian europe and supposedly wrote this letter at the behest of two recent arrivals from there who upon seeing the prosperity and freedom of the ottoman jews prevailed upon him to write their european coreligionists apprising them of the situation and urging them to migrate this remarkable letter advised its recipients not only of the pleasant conditions in the ottoman domains but described as well the ease of travel to palestine and the holy places an attraction to those who would make a pilgrimage or choose to be buried there page the impression gained from the hebrew sources is that the jews were firmly aware of the community of interests which existed between them and the ottomans especially in comparison to relations with the christians of europe confirmation of the commonality of interests between muslims and jews is also indicated by the fact that european christians perceived the jews as allies of islam and were well aware of muslim jewish cooperation certainly the activity of important jewish financiers and politicians representing the ottoman government abroad did not pass unnoticed european sources are the basis for much of our knowledge of their careers in addition it appears that christian pirates plundered turks and jews their sworn enemies and that europeans considered the jews to be agents who regularly reported to the ottomans there are well known examples of overt jewish support for the ottomans in the struggle against european powers the two best known instances of jewish support for the campaigning ottomans are the frequently cited instances of the jewish contributions to the conquests of buda in the early sixteenth century and of rhodes we also have reports of sympathy for the ottomans during the siege of chios an unpublished ottoman document shows dramatically the mutual interests which existed in some greek towns page it is clear that throughout the sixteenth century it was a generally accepted fact that the interests of jews and muslims coincided frequently and all parties involved jews muslims and christians were aware of the situation page it seems that the relations between greeks and jews were not particularly cordial the two groups had little in common few common interests and perceived no common philosophical or religious tradition which could serve as the basis for cooperation rather than enmity if there was any identifiable bond of good will which existed between religious communities in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries it was that between muslims and jews neither of whom had much in common with the orthodox page the general impression of muslim jewish relations in the ottoman context during the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries is one of community of interests from the earliest times the ottomans seem to have welcomed jews to their territory and to have found in the communities already existing in places which they conquered a cooperative element the jewish response to this tolerance was a steady flow of jews from christian countries to ottoman domains page from the period before we have only a few indications that the ottoman jewish relationship was well on the course of amity which would characterize it for years afterward but the liberality of the ottomans in contrast to the intolerance of the byzantines and the protection and the security which the ottomans offered in comparison to conditions elsewhere leave little doupt that even then both the ottomans and the jews recognized their mutual interests page it is impossible to say how fundamental the jews were in the success of the ottomans in rebuilding istanbul or in ottoman mercantile success in the sixteenth century that they played an important role in both cannot be doupted it is also unclear whether they were important enough to say that the ottomans would not have experienced their great success without the jews and that no other group could have been found to serve the ottomans as well as did the jews it is however unmistakably clear that there are few parallels in world history to this remarkable partnership between jews and the non jewish society in which they lived we must conclude that the ottomans could probably not achieved their success without a group performing certain tasks for them as well as the jews did certainly for the jews of the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries the ottoman empire was a most remarkable and salubrious home a version of rabbi sarfati s tzarfati letter is given by prof shaw page your cries and sobs reached us we have been told of all the troubles and persecutions which you have to suffer in the german lands i hear the lamentation of my brethren the barbarous and cruel nation ruthlessly oppresses the faithful children of the chosen people the priests and prelates of rome have risen they wish to root out the memory of jacob and erase the name of israel they always devise new persecutions they wish to bring you to the stake listen my brethren to the counsel i will give you i too was born in germany and studied torah with the german rabbis i was driven out of my native country and came to the turkish land which is blessed by god and filled with all good things here i found rest and happiness turkey can also become for you the land of peace if you who live in germany knew even a tenth of what god has blessed us with in this land you would not consider any difficulties you would set out to come to us here in the land of the turks we have nothing to complain of we possess great fortunes much gold and silver in our hands we are not oppressed with heavy taxes and our commerce is free and unhindered rich are the fruits of the earth everything is cheap and every one of us lives in peace and freedom here the jew is not compelled to wear a yellow hat as a badge of shame as is the case in germany where even wealth and great fortune are a curse for a jew because he therewith arouses jealousy among the christians and they devise all kinds of slander against him to rob him of his gold arise my brethren gird up your loins collect your forces and come to us here you will be free of your enemies here you will find rest israel zinberg a history of jewish literature vol v the jewish center of culture in the ottoman empire hebrew union college press ktav publishers new york serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	the armenian architect of the genocide of million muslim people in article apr husc harvard edu verbit germain harvard edu mikhail s verbitsky writes my personal problem with romanian culture is that i am not aware of one there is an anecdote about armenians troglodytism does not necessarily imply a low cultural level the image conscious armenians sorely feel a missing glory in their background armenians have never achieved statehood and independence they have always been subservient and engaged in undermining schemes against their rulers they committed genocide against the muslim populations of eastern anatolia and armenian dictatorship before and during world war i and fully participated in the extermination of the european jewry during world war ii belligerence genocide back stabbing rebelliousness and disloyalty have been the hallmarks of the armenian history to obliterate these episodes the armenians engaged in tailoring history to suit their whims in this zeal they tried to cover up the cold blooded genocide of million turks and kurds before and during world war i and you don t pull nations out of a hat source walker christopher armenia the survival of a nation new york st martin s press this generally pro armenian work contains the following information of direct relevance to the nazi holocaust a dro the butcher the former dictator of the armenian dictatorship and the architect of the genocide of million turks and kurds the most respected of nazi armenian leaders established an armenian provisional republic in berlin during world war ii b this provisional government fully endorsed and espoused the social theories of the nazis declared themselves and all armenians to be members of the aryan super race c they published an anti semitic racist journal thereby aligning themselves with the nazis and their efforts to exterminate the jews and d they mobilized an armenian army of up to members which fought side by side with the wehrmacht serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	the museum of barbarism in article c i ap eld acsu buffalo edu v saum ubvmsb cc buffalo edu varnavas a lambrou writes what about cyprus the majority of the population is christian but your fellow turkish friends did and still doing a good job for you by cleaning the area from christians all your article reflects is your abundant ignorance the people of turkiye know quite well that greece and the greek cypriots will never abandon the idea of hellenizing cyprus and will remain eternally hopeful of uniting it with greece someday whatever the cost to the parties involved the history speaks for itself greece was the sole perpetrator of invasion on that island when it sent its troops on july in an attempt to topple the legitimate government of archibishop makarios following the greek cypriot attempt to annex the island to greece with the aid of the greek army turkiye intervened by using her legal right given by two international agreements turkiye did it for the frequently and conveniently forgotten people of the island turkish cypriots for those turkish cypriots whose grandparents have been living on the island since the release of nikos sampson a member of eoka national organization of cypriot fighters and a convicted terrorist shows that the enosis mentality continues to survive in greece one should not forget that sampson dedicated his life to annihilating the turks in cyprus committed murder to achieve this goal and tried to destroy the island s independence by annexing it to greece of course the greek governments will have to bear the consequences for this irresponsible conduct the museum of barbarism irfan bey street kumsal area nicosia cyprus it is the house of dr nihat ilhan a major who was serving at the cyprus turkish army contingent during the attacks launched against the turks by the greeks on th december dr nihat ilhan s wife and three children were ruthlessly and brutally killed in the bathroom where they had tried to hide by savage greeks dr nihat ilhan happened to be on duty that night the th december pictures reflecting greek atrocities committed during and after are exhibited in this house which has been converted into a museum an eye witness account of how a turkish family was butchered by greek terrorists the date is the th of december the onslaught of the greeks against the turks which started three days ago has been going on with all its ferocity and defenseless women old men and children are being brutally killed by greeks and now kumsal area of nicosia witnesses the worst example of the greeks savage bloodshed the wife and the three infant children of dr nihat ilhan a major on duty at the camp of the cyprus turkish army contingent are mercilessly and dastardly shot dead while hiding in the bathroom of their house by maddened greeks who broke into their home a glaring example of greek barbarism let us now listen to the relating of the said incident told by mr hasan yusuf gudum an eye witness who himself was wounded during the same terrible event on the night of the th of december my wife feride hasan and i were paying a visit to the family of major dr nihat ilhan our neighbours mrs ayshe of mora her daughter ishin and mrs ayshe s sister novber were also with us we were all sitting having supper all of a sudden bullets from the pedieos river direction started to riddle the house sounding like heavy rain thinking that the dining room where we were sitting was dangerous we ran to the bathroom and toilet which we thought would be safer altogether we were nine persons we all hid in the bathroom except my wife who took refuge in the toilet we waited in fear mrs ilhan the wife of major doctor was standing in the bath with her three children murat kutsi and hakan in her arms suddenly with a great noise we heard the front door open greeks had come in and were combing every corner of the house with their machine gun bullets during these moments i heard voices saying in greek you want taksim eh and then bullets started flying in the bathroom mrs ilhan and her three children fell into the bath they were shot at this moment the greeks who broke into the bathroom emptied their guns on us again i heard one of the major s children moan then i fainted when i came to myself or hours later i saw mrs ilhan and her three children lying dead in the bath i and the rest of the neighbours in the bathroom were all seriously wounded but what had happened to my wife then i remembered and immediately ran to the toilet where in the doorway i saw her body she was brutally murdered in the street admist the sound of shots i heard voices crying help help is there no one to save us i became terrified i thought that if the greeks came again and found that i was not dead they would kill me so i ran to the bedroom and hid myself under the double bed an our passed by in the distance i could still hear shots my mouth was dry so i came out from under the bed and drank some water then i put some sweets in my pocket and went back to the bathroom which was exactly as i had left in an hour ago there i offered sweets to mrs ayshe her daughter and mrs novber who were all wounded we waited in the bathroom until o clock in the morning i thought morning would never come we were all wounded and needed to be taken to hospital finally as we could walk mrs novber and i went out into the street hoping to find help and walked as far as koshklu chiftlik there we met some people who took us to hospital where we were operated on when i regained my consciousness i said that there were more wounded in the house and they went and brought mrs ayshe and her daughter after staying three days in the hospital i was sent by plane to ankara for further treatment there i have had four months treatment but still i cannot use my arm on my return to cyprus greeks arrested me at the airport all i have related to you above i told the greeks during my detention they then released me on foot into cyprus s devastated turkish quarter we went tonight into the sealed off turkish quarter of nicosia in which to people have been slaughtered in the last five days we were the first western reporters there and we saw some terrible sights in the kumsal quarter at no irfan bey sokagi we made our way into a house whose floors were covered with broken glass a child s bicycle lay in a corner in the bathroom looking like a group of waxworks were three children piled on top of their murdered mother in a room next to it we glimpsed the body of a woman shot in the head this we were told was the home of a turkish army major whose family had been killed by the mob in the first violence today was five days later and still they lay there rene maccoll and daniel mcgeachie from the daily express i saw in a bathroom the bodies of a mother and three infant children murdered because their father was a turkish officer max clos le figaro january peter moorhead reporting from the village of skyloura cyprus date january il giarno italy they are turk hunting they want to exterminate them discussions start in london in cyprus terror continues right now we are witnessing the exodus of turks from the villages thousands of people abandoning homes land herds greek cypriot terrorism is relentless this time the rhetoric of the hellenes and the bust of plato do not suffice to cover up barbaric and ferocious behaviors article by giorgo bocca correspondent of il giorno date january daily herald london an appalling sight and when i came across the turkish homes they were an appalling sight apart from the walls they just did not exist i doubt if a napalm bomb attack could have created more devastation i counted blackened brick and concrete shells that had once been homes each house had been deliberately fired by petrol under red tile roofs which had caved in i found a twisted mass of bed springs children s conts and cribs and ankle deep grey ashes of what had once been chairs tables and wardrobes in the neighbouring village of ayios vassilios a mile away i counted wrecked and burned out homes they were all turkish cypriot homes from this village more than turkish cypriots had also vanished in neither village did i find a scrap of damage to any greek cypriot house daily telegraph london graves of shot turkish cypriots found in cyprus village silent crowds gathered tonight outside the red crescent hospital in the turkish sector of nicosia as the bodies of turkish cypriots found crudely buried outside the village of ayios vassilios miles away were brought to the hospital under the escort of the parachute regiment three more bodies including one of a woman were discovered nearby but could not be removed turkish cypriots guarded by paratroops are still trying to locate the bodies of more believed to have been buried on the same site serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	historical and traditional armenian barbarism and fascism source men are like that by leonard ramsden hartill the bobbs merrill company indianapolis pages memoirs of an armenian officer who participated in the genocide of million muslim people p first paragraph i was soon asleep in the night i was awakened by the persistent crying of a child i arose and went to investigate a full moon enabled me to make my way about and revealed to me all the wreck and litter of the tragedy that had been enacted guided by the child s crying i entered the yard of a house which i judged from its appearance must have been the home of a turkish family there in a corner of the yard i found a women dead her throat had been cut lying on her breast was a small child a girl about a year old serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	muslims were one by one cruelly bayonetted to death by armenians in article apr news columbia edu lasner watsun cc columbia edu charles lasner writes how dare you presume that he even has a right to go around a newsgroup with a desire to convince others of any external position he has they are news because they are the exceptions and the islamic holocaust is much the topic of the day the historical evidence proves that during the period of to the armenian government ordered incited assisted and participated in the genocide of million muslim people because of race religion and national origin armenians perpetrated acts of sabotage destroyed telephone cables blew up bridges blocked passes set up ambushes attacked security stations and small turkish outposts behind the ottoman army lines on the one hand and on the other ruthlessly attacked turkish and kurdish villages slaughtering the turkish population indiscriminately women children old and young alike innocent muslims were one by one cruelly bayonetted to death or massacred with axes and swords or else shut up in mosques or in schools and then burnt alive as can be seen below widespread armenian massacres of innocent muslims took place in regions of van kars sivas erzurum bitlis erzincan mus diyarbakir and maras the ottoman army while fighting to prevent the russian invasion also had to deal with armenian genocide squads who cowardly hit from behind the armenian genocide of the muslims spread to all parts of eastern anatolia starting from late armenians committed widespread massacres and genocide in eastern anatolia because the arena was left to the armenians almost every turkish town and village from erzincan up to azerbaidjan suffered large scale massacres and genocide by armenians and the turkish genocide has been documented by armenian russian american british ottoman german austrian and french journalists and officers who observed the first genocide of this century committed by the blood thirsty armenian genocide squads the ottoman army liberating trabzon bayburt erzincan erzurum kars and other regions from the russians saw that the cities and their villages had been destroyed and burnt people slaughtered massacred the massacres conducted by armenians which became a black stain for humanity shocked and disgusted even the russian british german austrian french and american authorities almost every ottoman document is related to armenian massacres and cruelties the inhuman treatment cruelties atrocities genocide by armenian genocide squads perpetrated against innocent moslem turkish and kurdish people are sufficiently reflected in historical documents even today over seventy five years later the terrifying screams of the victims of these cruelties can be heard source documents volume i document no archive no cabin no drawer no file no section no contents no to lt colonel seyfi general headquarters second section istanbul dr stephan eshnanie neues wiener tagblatt vienna pester lloyd local anzliger berlin algemeen handelsblat amsterdam vakit istanbul i have been closely following for two weeks the withdrawal of russians and armenians from turkish territories through armenia although two months have elapsed since the clearing of the territories of armenian gangs i have been observing the evidence of the cruelties of the armenians at almost every step all the villages from trabzon to erzincan and from erzincan to erzurum are destroyed corpses of turks brutally and cruelly slain are everywhere according to accounts by those who were able to save their lives by escaping to mountains the first horrible and fearful events begun when the russian forces evacuated the places which were then taken over by armenian gangs the russians usually treated the people well but the people feared the intervention of the armenians once these places had been taken over by the armenians however the massacres begun they clearly announced their intention of clearing what they called the armenian and kurdish land from the turks and thus solve the nationality problem today i had the opportunity to meet austrian and german soldiers who had escaped from russian prison camps and come from kars and alexander paul gumru leninakan russian officers tried to save the turks and there were clashes between russian officers and armenian gangs i am now in erzurum and what i see is terrible almost the whole city is destroyed the smell of the corpses still fills the air although there are speculations that armenian gangs murdered austrian and german prisoners as well i could not get the supporting evidence in this regard but there is proof of murdering of turkish prisoners of war dr stephan eshnanie serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re turkish government agents on usenet lie through their teeth davidian babble the turkish government feels it can funnel a heightened state of ultra nationalism existing in turkey today onto usenet and convince people via its revisionist myopic and incidental view of themselves and their place in the world turkish government on usenet how long are you going to keep repeating this utterly idiotic and increasingly saddening drivel oz life of a people is a sea and those that look at it from the shore cannot know its depths armenian proverb
talk.politics.mideast	turkey admits to sending arms to azerbaijan turkish pilot caught turkey sends light weapons as aid to azerbaijan by seva ulman ankara turkey upi turkey is arming azerbaijan with light weapons to help it fight armenian forces in the struggle for the nagorno karabakh enclave the newspaper hurriyet said thursday deputy prime minister erdal inonu told reporters in ankara that turkey was responding positively to a request from azerbaijan for assistance we are giving a positive response to all requests from azerbaijan within the limits of our capabilities he said foreign ministry spokesman vural valkan declined to elaborate on the nature of the aid being sent to azerbaijan but said they were within the framework of the council for security and cooperation in europe hurriyet published in istanbul said turkey was sending light weapons to azerbaijan including rockets rocket launchers and ammunition ankara began sending the hardware after a visit to turkey last week by a high ranking azerbaijani official turkey has however ruled out for the second time in one week that it would intervene militarily in azerbaijan wednesday inonu told reporters ankara would not allow azerbaijan to suffer defeat at the hands of the armenians we feel ourselves bound to help azerbaijan but i am not in a position right now to tell you what form that help may take in the future he said he said turkish aid to azerbaijan was continuing and the whole world knows about it prime minister suleyman demirel reiterated that turkey would not get militarily involved in the conflict foreign policy decisions could not be based on street level excitement he said there was no immediate reaction in ankara to regional reports based on armenian sources in yerevan saying turkish pilots and other officers were captured when they were shot down flying azerbaijani warplanes and helicopters the newspaper cumhuriyet said turkish troops were digging in along the border with armenia but military sources denied reports based on claims by local people that gunfire was heard along the border no military action has occurred the sources said the latest upsurge in fighting between the armenians and azerbaijanis flared early this month when armenian forces seized the town of kelbajar and later positioned themselves outside fizuli near the iranian border david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
talk.politics.mideast	public service translation no subject re netteki butun vatanseverlere duyuru in article apr freenet carleton ca aa freenet carleton ca suat kiniklioglu a k a kubilay kultigin continues kk butun netteki arkadaslara duyuru kk kk siyasi platformun hangi tarafinda olursaniz olun kk kk bugunlerde bu nette olsun talk politics mideast ve talk politics kk soviet te olsun olagan dan fazla ve etkin ermeni ve yunan kk postingleri yazilmaktadir bu yazilarin cogu guncel karabag kk kibris ve bosna konularinda yogunlasmaktadir buradan hareketle kk hepimizin biraz daha aktif olmasi ve usenmeyip cevap yazmasi kk oldukca faydali olacaktir kk kk evet herkesin isi gucu var akademik yilin yogun bir donemi kk fakat meydani bos birakmamanin ve ulkemizin cikarlarini ideolojik kk platformda gozetmenin de sorumlulugu var kk kk yarinlarin cagdas ve guclu turkiyesi ni hep beraber kurmak umuduyla kk kk saygilar kk kubilay kultigin kk vatan sevgisi ruhlari kirden kurtaran en kuvvetli ruzgardir in translation as a public service subject an announcement to all patriots on the net an annoncement to all friends on the net regardless of wherever you stand on the political spectrum in recent days armenian and greek postings of than the usual in number and effectiveness are being written both on this net and the talk politics mideast and talk politics soviet most of these writings concentrate on the subjects of karabagh cyprus and bosnia due to this fact it is quite useful for us all be more active and not feel reluctant to respond yes everybody has his her occupation it is a busy period in the academic year however we must have a responsibilty not to leave the forum empty and watch the interests of our country on the ideological level in the hope of building together a modern and powerful turkey of tomorrrow regards kubilay kultigin the love of the fatherland is the strongest of all winds cleansing filth off souls david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
talk.politics.mideast	re conventional proposales israel palestinians in article bca dc news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes the latest israeli proposal first proposed in february of contains the following assumptions concerning the nature of any interim status refering to the wb and gaza the palestinians implemented by negotiations it states that israel will remain the existing source of authority until final status is agreed upon israel will negiotiate the delegation of power to the organs of the interim self government arrangements isga the isga will apply to the palestinian inhabitants of the territories under israeli military administration the arrangements will not have a territorial application nor will they apply to the israeli population of the territories or to the palestinian inhabitants of jerusalem residual powers not delegated under the isga will be reserved by israel israelis will continue to live and settle in the territoriesd israel alone will have responsibility for security in all its aspects external internal and for the maintenance of public order the organs of the isga will be of an administrative functional nature the exercise of powers under the isga will be subject to cooperation and coordination with israel israel will negotiate delegation of powers and responsibilities in the areas of administration justice personnel agriculture education business tourism labor and social welfare local police local transportation and communications municipal affairs and religious affairs the palestinian counterproposal of march the establishment of a palestinian interim self governing authority pisga whose authority is vested by the palestinian people its pisga powers cannot be delegated by israel in the interim phase the israeli military government and civil adminis tration will be abolished and the pisga will asume the powers previous ly enjoyed by israel there will be no limitations on its pisga powers and responsibilities except those which derive from its character as an interim arrangement by the time pisga is inaugurated the israeli armed forces will have completed their withdrawal to agreed points along the borders of the occupied palestinian territory opt the opt includes jerusalem the jurisdiction of the pisga shall extend to all of the opt including its land water and air space the pisga shall have legislative powers to enact amend and abrogate laws it will wield executive power withput foreign control it shall determine the nature of its cooperation with any state or international body and shall be empowered to conclude binding coopera tive agreements free of any control by israel the pisga shall administer justice throughout the opt and will have sole and exclusive jruisdiction it will have a strong police force responsible for security and public order in the opt it can request the assistance of a un peacekeeping force disputes with israel over self governing arrangements will be settled by a committee composed of representatives of the five permanent members of the un security council the secretary general of the un the pisga jordan egypt syria and israel but perhaps the bargaining attitude behind these very different visions of the interim stage is wrong for two reasons the present palestinian and israeli leadership are as moderate as is likely to exist for many years so the present opportunity may be the last for a significant period since these negotiations are not designed to or even attempting to resolve the conflict attention to issues dealing with a desired final status are mis placed and potentially destructive given this how should proposals from either side be altered to temper their maximalist approaches as stated above how can israeli worries and desire for some interim control be addressed while providing for a very real interim palestinian self governing entity tim april response by al moore l lmsc is lmsc lockheed com basically the problem is that israel may remain or leave the occupied territories it cannot do both it cannot do neither so far israe continues to propose that they remain the palestinians propose that they leave why should either change their view it is worth pointing out that the only area of compromise accomodating both views seems to require a reduction in the israeli presence israel proposes no such reduction and in fact may be said to not be negotiating tim there seem to be two perceptions that have to be addressed the first is that of israel where there is little trust for arab groups so there is little support for israel giving up tangible assets in exchange for pieces of paper expectations hopes etc the second is that of the arab world palestinians where there is the demand that these tangible concessions be made by israel without it receiving anything tangible back given this the gap between the two stances seems to be the need by israel of receiving some tangible returns for its expected concessions by tangible is meant something that provides israel with comparable protection from the land it is to give up in some way ensures that the arab states and palestine will be accountable and held actively not just diplomatically responsible for the upholding of all actions on its territory by citizens or visitors in essence i do not believe that israel objections to palestinian statehood would be anywhere near as strong as they are now if israel was assured that any new palestinian state would be committed to co existing with israel and held responsible for all attacks on israel from its territory aside from some of the rather slanted proposals above how could such guarantees be instilled for example how could such guarantees controls be added to the palestinian pisga proposals israel is hanging on largely because it is scared stiff that the minute it lets go gives lands back to arab states no more buffer zone gives full autonomy to palestinians any and or all of the arab parties could and would if not controlled somehow easily return to the traditional anti israel position the question then is how to really ensure that that will not happen tim
talk.politics.mideast	re water on the brain was re israeli expansion lust in article apr nysernet org astein nysernet org alan stein writes i guess hasan finally revealed the source of his claim that israel diverted water from lebanon his imagination alan h stein astein israel nysernet org mr water head i never said that israel diverted lebanese rivers in fact i said that israel went into southern lebanon to make sure that no water is being used on the lebanese side so that all water would run into jordan river where there israel will use it head hasan
talk.politics.mideast	re go hezbollah in article apr ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu brad hernlem writes lebanese resistance forces detonated a bomb under an israeli occupation patrol in lebanese territory two days ago three soldiers were killed and two wounded in retaliation israeli and israeli backed forces wounded civilians by bombarding several lebanese villages ironically the israeli government justifies its occupation in lebanon by claiming that it is necessary to prevent such bombardments of israeli villages congratulations to the brave men of the lebanese resistance with every israeli son that you place in the grave you are underlining the moral bankruptcy of israel s occupation and drawing attention to the israeli government s policy of reckless disregard for civilian life brad hernlem hernlem chess ncsu edu i m sure the federal bureau of investigation fbi gov on the internet is going to love reading your incitement to murder josh backon vms huji ac il
talk.politics.mideast	clinton s views on jerusalem i recently read that during bill clinton s campaign he stated that if elected he would immediately recognize jerusalem as israel s capital according to the article mr clinton reaffirmed this after winning the presidency however during recent talks with president mubarak secretary of state christopher stated that the status of jerusalem will be a final matter of discussion between the parties now i don t want to start a big discussion over the status of jerusalem all i want to know is if anyone can authenticate mr clinton s statements with dates places etc thank you ben
talk.politics.mideast	news briefs from kh from kayhan havai o dr namaki deputy minister of health stated that infant mortality under one year old in iran went down from per thousand before the revolution to per thousand at the end of last month o dr namaki also stated that before the revolution only f children received vaccinations to protect them from various deseases but this figure reached at the end of o dr malekzadeh the minister of health mentioned that the population growth rate in iran at the end of went below o during the visit of mahathir mohammad the prime minister of malaysia to iran agreements for cooperation in the areas of industry trade education and tourism were signed according to one agreement iran will be in charge of building malaysia s natural gas network farzin mokhtarian
talk.politics.mideast	re turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece armenia azeris from article qvgu inn np lynx unm edu by osinski chtm eece unm edu marek osinski well it did not take long to see how consequent some greeks are in requesting that thessaloniki are not called solun by bulgarian netters so napoleon why do you write about konstantinople and not istanbul marek osinski thessaloniki is called thessaloniki by its inhabitants for the last years the city was never called solun by its inhabitants instabul was called konstantinoupolis from ad until about the s that s about years there many people alive today who were born in a city called konstantinoupolis how many people do you know that were born in a city called solun napoleon
talk.politics.mideast	re why does us consider yigal arens to be a dangerous to humanity anwar cs cmu edu anwar mohammed writes in article bimacs bitnet ehrlich bimacs bitnet gideon ehrlich writes the readers of this forum seemed to be more interested in the contents of those files so it will be nice if yigal will tell us why do american authorities consider yigal arens to be dangerous adl authorities seem to view a lot of people as dangerous including the millions of americans of arab ancestry perhaps you can answer the question as to why the adl maintained files and spied on adc members in california and elsewhere friendly rivalry perhaps come on most if not all arabs are sympathetic to the palestinian war against israel that is why the adl monitors arab organizations that is the same reason the us monitored communist organizations and soviet nationals only a few years ago perhaps yigal is a greenpeace member or the naacp or a reporter or a member of any of the dozens of other political organizations ethnic minorities occupations that the adl spied on all of these groups have in the past associated with or been a part of anti israel activity or propoganda the adl is simply monitoring them so that if anything comes up they won t be caught by surprise why does the adl have an interest in that person paranoia no that is why world trade center bombings don t happen in israel aside from the fact that there is no world trade center and why people like zein isa palestinian whose american group planned to bow up the israeli embassy and kill many jews are caught as mordechai levy of the jdl said paranoid jews live longer if one does trust either the us government or the adl what an additional information should he send them the names of half the posters on this forum unless they already have them they probably do gideon ehrlich anwar ed
talk.politics.mideast	re was go hezbollah in article apr ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu brad hernlem writes in article apr unocal com stssdxb st unocal com dorin baru writes brad hernlem writes well you should have noted that i was cheering an attack on an israeli patrol inside lebanese territory while i was condemning the retaliatory shelling of lebanese villages by israeli and israeli backed forces my team you see was playing fair while the opposing team was rearranging the faces of the spectators in my team s viewing stands so to speak i think that you should try to find more sources of news about what goes on in lebanon and try to see through the propaganda there are no a priori black and white hats but one sure wonders how the idf can bombard villages in retaliation to pin point attacks on its soldiers in lebanon and then call the lebanese terrorists if the attack was justified or not is at least debatable but this is not the issue the issue is that you were cheering death dorin dorin of all the criticism of my post expressed on t p m this one i accept i regret that aspect of my post it is my hope that the occupation will end and the accompanying loss of life but i believe that stiff resistance can help to achieve that end despite what some have said on t p m i think that there is a point when losses are unacceptable the strategy drove u s troops out of lebanon at least brad hernlem hernlem chess ncsu edu hi brad i have two comments regarding your hope that the occupation will end belive that stiff resistance etc how about an untried approach i e peace and cooperation i can t help but wonder what would happen if all violence against israelis stopped hopefully violence against arabs would stop at the same time if a state of non violence could be maintained perhaps a state of cooperation could be achieved i e greater economic opportunities for both peoples living in the territories of course given the current leadership of israel your way may work also but if that leadership changes e g to someone with ariel sharon s mentality then i would predict a considerable loss of life i e no winners secondly regarding your comment about the u s troops responding to stiff resistance the analogy is not quite valid the u s troops could get out of the neighborhood altogether the israelis could not just my worth no offense intended respectfully ben
talk.politics.mideast	re unconventional peace proposal in article igc apc org cpr igc apc org center for policy research writes from center for policy research cpr subject unconventional peace proposal a unconventional proposal for peace in the middle east by elias davidsson a fund should be established which would disburse grants for each child born to a couple where one partner is israeli jew and the other palestinian arab to be entitled for a grant a couple will have to prove that one of the partners possesses or is entitled to israeli citizenship under the law of return and the other partner although born in areas under current isreali control is not entitled to such citizenship under the law of return for the first child the grant will amount to for the second the third child for each child for each subsequent child the grant will amount to for each child i would be thankful for critical comments to the above proposal as well for any dissemination of this proposal for meaningful discussion and enrichment elias davidsson post box reykjavik iceland maybe i m a bit old fashioned but have you heard about something called love it used to play some role in people s considerations for getting married of course i know some people who married fictitiously in order to get a green card but making a common child for the power of aa is limited your proposal is indeed unconventional oded maler lgi imag bat d b p x grenoble france phone fax e mail maler imag fr
talk.politics.mideast	re news you may have missed apr why do you insist on reposting the entire original post don t waste bandwidth please you know how picky us non jews can be ha ha
talk.politics.mideast	lezgians astir in azerbaijan and daghestan lezghis astir by nejla sammakia associated press writer gussar azerbaijan ap the lezghis of azerbaijan and russia have begun clamoring for their own state threatening turmoil in a tranquil corner of the caucasus the region has escaped the ethnic warfare of neighboring nagorno karabakh abkhazia and ossetia but lezhgis could become the next minority in the former soviet union to fight for independence lezghis who are muslim descendents of nomadic shepherds are angry about the conscription of their young men to fight in azerbaijan s year old undeclared war with armenia they also want to unite the lezghi regions of azerbaijan and russia which were effectively one until the breakup of the soviet union created national borders that had been only lines on a map a rally of more than lezghis in march to protest conscription and demand a separate lezghistan alarmed the azerbaijani government officials in baku the capital deny rumors that police shot six demonstrators to death but the government announced strict security measures and began cooperating with russian authorities to control the movement of lezhgis living across the border in the dagestan region of russia visitors to gussar the center of lezhgi life found the town quiet soon after the protest children played outdoors in the crisp mountain air at the sunday bazaar men in heavy coats and dark fur hats gathered to discuss grievances ranging from high customs duties at the russian border to a war they say is not theirs i have been drafted but i won t go said shamil kadimov gold teeth glinting in the sun why must i fight a war for the azerbaijanis i have nothing to do with armenia more than people have died in the war which centers on the disputed territory of nagorno karabakh about miles to the southeast malik kerimov an official in the mayor s office said only of locals drafted in had served the police don t force people to go he said they are afraid of an uprising that could be backed by lezghis in dagestan all the men agreed that police had not fired at the demonstrators but disagreed on how the protest came about some said it occurred spontaneously when rumors spread that azerbaijan was about to draft men from the gussar region where lezghis live others said the rally was ordered by gen muhieddin kahramanov leader of the lezhgi underground separatist movement sadval based in dagestan we organized the demonstration when families came to us distraught about draft orders said kerim babayev a mathematics teacher who belongs to sadval we hope to reunite peacefully by approaching everyone the azerbaijanis the russians in the early th century the lezhgis formed two khanates or sovereignties in what are now azerbaijan and dagestan they roamed freely with their sheep over the green hills and mountains between the two khanates by the lezghi areas were joined to czarist russia after they came under soviet rule with the disintegration of the soviet union the lezghis were faced for the first time with strict borders about half remained in dagestan and half in newly independent azerbaijan we have to pay customs on all this on cars on wine complained mais talibov a small trader his goods laid out on the ground at the bazaar included brandy stomach medication and plastic shoes from dagestan we want our own country he said we want to be able to move about easily but baku won t listen to us physically it is hard for outsiders to distinguish lezhgis from other azerbaijanis in many villages they live side by side working at the same jobs and intermarrying to some degree but the lezhgis have a distinctive language a mixture of arabic turkish and persian with strong guttural vowels azerbaijan officially supports the cultural preservation of its largest ethnic minorities the lezghis have weekly newspapers and some elementary school classes in their language autonomy is a different question if the lezghis succeeded in separating from azerbaijan they would set a precedent for other minorities such as the talish in the south the tats in the nearby mountains and the avars of eastern azerbaijan david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
talk.politics.mideast	re turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece armenia azeris in article apr news uiowa edu mau herky cs uiowa edu mau napoleon writes compromise on what the invasion of cyprus the involment of turkey in greek politics the refusal of turkey to accept miles of territorial waters as stated by international law the properties of the greeks of konstantinople the ownership of the islands in the greek lake sorry aegean well it did not take long to see how consequent some greeks are in requesting that thessaloniki are not called solun by bulgarian netters so napoleon why do you write about konstantinople and not istanbul marek osinski
talk.politics.mideast	re news you may have missed apr in article apr porthos cc bellcore com bf pyuxe cc bellcore com feigenbaum benjamin writes in article qu op genesis mcs com arf genesis mcs com jack schmidling writes news you may have missed apr not because you were too busy but because israelists in the us media spiked it those intrepid israeli soldiers israeli soldiers have sexually taunted arab women in the occupied gaza strip during the three week long closure that has sealed palestinians off from the jewish state palestinian sources said on sunday the incidents occurred in the town of khan younis and involved soldiers of the golani brigade who have been at the centre of house to house raids for palestinian activists during the closure which was imposed on the strip and occupied west bank if you are as revolted at this as i am drop israel s best friend email and let him know what you think compuserve com via compuserve clintonpz aol com via america online clinton hq campaign org via mci mail tell em arf sent ya if you are tired of learning about american foreign policy from what is effectively israeli controlled media i highly recommend checking out the washington report a free sample copy is available by calling the american education trust at tell em arf sent you js i took your advice and ordered a copy of the washinton report i heartily recommend it to all pro israel types for the following reasons it is an excellent absorber of excrement i use it to line the bottom of my parakeet s cage a negative side effect is that my bird now has a somewhat warped view of the mideast it makes a great april fool s joke i e give it to someone who knows nothing about the middle east and then say april fools clearly if a chutzpa reacts this way it must be worth reading by more objective types you are so wrapped up in your hate that you can t even take the time to edit out my long posting thanks for the extra milege by reposting it
talk.politics.mideast	ten questions about israel from center for policy research cpr subject ten questions about israel ten questions to israelis i would be thankful if any of you who live in israel could help to provide accurate answers to the following specific questions these are indeed provocative questions but they are asked time and again by people around me is it true that the israeli authorities don t recognize israeli nationality and that id cards which israeli citizens must carry at all times identify people as jews or arabs not as israelis is it true that the state of israel has no fixed borders and that israeli governments from until today have refused to state where the ultimate borders of the state of israel should be is it true that israeli stocks nuclear weapons if so could you provide any evidence is it true that in israeli prisons there are a number of individuals which were tried in secret and for which their identities the date of their trial and their imprisonment are state secrets is it true that jews who reside in the occupied territories are subject to different laws than non jews is it true that jews who left palestine in the war to avoid the war were automatically allowed to return while their christian neighbors who did the same were not allowed to return is it true that israel s prime minister y rabin signed an order for ethnical cleansing in as is done today in bosnia herzegovina is it true that israeli arab citizens are not admitted as members in kibbutzim is it true that israeli law attempts to discourage marriages between jews and non jews is it true that hotel hilton in tel aviv is built on the site of a muslim cemetery thanks elias davidsson iceland email elias ismennt is
talk.politics.mideast	re the hamas way of death in article apr nntpd lkg dec com alaa peewee unx dec com alaa zeineldine writes tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes while you brought up the separate question of israel s unjustified policies and practices i am still unclear about your reaction to the practices and polocies reflected in the article above tim not a separate question mr clock it is deceiving to judge the resistance movement out of the context of the occupation alaa zeineldine when the plo moved into lebanon and became in parts of lebanon an occupying power itself these same practices were common against non palestinean and palestinean alike they are simply standard operating procedures among palestineans and have been for a very long time in fact the greatest bloodbath of palestineans will happen when they get self rule can you possibly deny this when the plo is the occupier who are you now going to blame jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	re nazi eugenic theories circulated by cpr unconventional peace first this man promotes the dissolution of the jews through an intermarriage process and then says that it will be just a bunch of fundamentalist jews who will object this clown even called for buying the dissolution of the jewish people does this idiot mean to suggest that any jew who objects to an imibicilic notion like this is fundamentalist or does he simply mean to insult the orthodox by using the word fundamentalist i am not orthodox i am not fundamentalist i would desire a genuine peace in the region more than this pinhead davidsson can ever understand but when he shows his willingness to dismiss an entire culture he proves that the only thing more brain boggling than his stupidity is his willingness to display his stupidity in this newsgroup please take your hatred for the essence of judaism and shove it up your ass remember to pull your head out first
talk.politics.mideast	re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes in article apr ee rochester edu terziogl ee rochester edu esin terzioglu writes in article apr kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes in article apr ee rochester edu terziogl ee rochester edu esin terzioglu writes in article apr urartu sdpa org dbd urartu sdpa org david davidian writes armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes ermenistan kasiniyor let me translate for everyone else before the public traslation service gets into it armenia is getting itchy esin henrik let me clearify mr turkish henrik armenia is not getting itchy she is simply letting the world henrik know that she will no longer sit there quiet and let turks get henrik away with their famous tricks armenians do remember of the turkish henrik invasion of the greek island of cypress while the world simply watched esin terzioglu your ignorance is obvious from your posting esin terzioglu cyprus was an independent country with turkish greek inhabitants not a greek island like your ignorant posting claims esin terzioglu the name should be cyprus in english esin terzioglu next time read and learn before you post aside from spelling why is that you turks do not want to admit your past mistakes you know turkish invasion of cyprus was a mistake and too bad that u n did not do anything about it you may ask mistake yes i would say why is that the greeks did not invade cyprus my response to the shooting down of a turkish airplane over the armenian air space was because of the ignorant posting of the person from your country turks and azeris consistantly want to drag armenia into the karabakh conflict with azerbaijan the karabakhi armenians who have lived in their homeland for years cut off from armenia and given to azeris by stalin are the ones directly involved in the conflict they are defending themselves against azeri aggression agression that has no mercy for inocent people that are costantly shelled with mig s and othe russian aircraft at last i hope that the u s insists that turkey stay out of the karabakh crisis so that the repeat of the cyprus invasion will never occur again
talk.politics.mideast	re nazi eugenic theories circulated by cpr unconventional peace in article qvi s b o usenet ins cwru edu bc cleveland freenet edu mark ira kaufman writes first this man promotes the dissolution of the jews through an intermarriage process and then says that it will be just a bunch of fundamentalist jews who will object or does he simply mean to insult the orthodox by using the word fundamentalist it s irritating when someone mis labels us as fundamentalists isn t it this sort of thing may help us understand why some muslims rather resent being put under this label tim
talk.politics.mideast	re xsoviet armenia denies the historical fact of the turkish genocide in article bd b news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes i sure hope so because the unspeakable crimes of the armenians must be righted armenian invaders burned and sacked the fatherland of no no no no no no no it is not justifiable to right wrongs of previous years well there is a bit such as the german reparations to the jewish survivors of the holocaust certainly as such an event goes further into the past reparations become less realistic i was convinced that no one could have a more warped sense of the world they were our grandparents who were cold bloodedly exterminated by the armenians between and not yours and you can always participate in the turkish genocide day along with millions of turkish and kurdish people on april in the united states and canada on this occasion we once again reiterate the unquestioned justice of the restitution of turkish and kurdish rights and we demand that the x soviet armenian government admit its responsibility for the turkish and kurdish genocide render reparations to the muslim people and return the land to its rightful owners the recognition of the genocide has become an issue which cannot be delayed further and it is imperative that artificial obstacles created for political manipulations be removed we believe the time has come to demand from the the united states that it formally recognizes the turkish and kurdish genocide adopts the principles of our demands and refuses to accede to armenian pressures to the contrary as taxpayers of the united states we express our vehement protest to the present u s government policy of continued coddling protection and unqualified assistance towards x soviet armenia we also demand that the united states return to the policies advocated by u s ambassador bristol and other enlightened statesmen who have undertaken a just human and benevolent attitude towards the rights of the muslim people and the just resolution of their case our territorial demands are strictly aimed at x soviet armenia s and in article bac d news service uci edu you have blatantly lied the goltz article was not published in the sunday times magazine on march but in the guardian sunday section well still anxiously awaiting cis commander pulls troops out of karabagh elif kaban a reuter correspondent in agdam reported that after a battle on wednesday azeris were burying scores of people who died when armenians overran the town of khojaly the second biggest azeri settlement in the area the world is turning its back on what s happening here we are dying and you are just watching one mourner shouted at a group of journalists helen womack the independent armenian soldiers massacre hundreds of fleeing families the attackers killed most of the soldiers and volunteers defending the women and children they then turned their guns on the terrified refugees the few survivors later described what happened that s when the real slaughter began said azer hajiev one of the three soldiers to survive the armenians just shot and shot and they came in and started carving up people with their bayonets and knives a year old man who had been shot in the back said we were walking through the brush then they opened up on us and people were falling all around my wife fell then my child thomas goltz sunday times armenian raid leaves azeris dead or fleeing about of khojaly s people were killed in tuesdays attack azerbaijani television showed truckloads of corpses being evacuated from the khocaly area brian killen reuters the washington times atrocity reports horrify azerbaijan azeri officials who returned from the seen to this town about nine miles away brought back three dead children the backs of their heads blown off women and children had been scalped said assad faradzev an aide to karabagh s azeri governor azeri television showed pictures of one truckload of bodies brought to the azeri town of agdam some with their faces apparently scratched with knives or their eyes gouged out brian killen reuters the washington times massacre by armenians being reported the republic of armenia reiterated denials that its militants had killed azeris but dozens of bodies scattered over the area lent credence to azerbaijani reports of a massacre reuters the new york times killings rife in nagorno karabagh moldova journalists in the area reported seeing dozens of corpses including some of the civilians and azerbaijani officials said armenians began shooting at them when they sought to recover the bodies fred hiatt the washington post bodies mark site of karabagh massacre a local truce was enforced to allow the azerbaijanis to collect their dead and any refugees still hiding in the hills and forest all are the bodies of ordinary people dressed in the poor ugly clorhing of workers of the we saw only one policeman and two apparent national volunteers were wearing uniform all the rest were civilians including eight women and three small children two groups apparently families had fallen together the children cradled in the women s arms several of them including one small girl had terrible head injuries only her face was left survivors have told how they saw armenians shooting them point blank as they lay on the ground anatol lieven the times london karabagh survivors flee to mountains geyush gassanov the deputy mayor of khocaly said that armenian troops surrounded the town after pm on tuesday they were accompanied by six or seven light tanks and armoured carriers we thought they would just bombard the village as they had in the past and then retreat but they attacked and our defence force couldn t do anything against their tanks other survivors described how they had been fired on repeatedly on their way through the mountains to safety for two days we crawled most of the way to avoid gunfire sukru aslanov said his daughter was killed in the battle for khodjaly and his brother and son died on the road anatol lieven the times london corpses litter hills in karabagh as we swooped low over the snow covered hills of nagorno karabagh we saw the scattered corpses apparently the refugees had been shot down as they ran suddenly there was a thump our azerbaijani helicopter had been fired on from an armenian anti aircraft post anatol lieven the times london police in western azerbaijan said they had recovered the bodies of azerbaijanis killed as they fled an armenian assault in the disputed enclave of nagorno karabagh and said they were blocked from recovering more bodies the wall street journal exiting troops attacked in nagorno karabagh withdrawal halted armenians blamed more video footage and reports from khocaly paint a grim picture of widespread civilian deaths and mutilation one woman s feet appeared to have been bound paul quinn judge the boston globe serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re thousands of armenians were serving the german army and waffen ss in article apr eagle wesleyan edu kmagnacca eagle wesleyan edu writes too bad in fact by nazi armenians in europe had established a vast network of pro german collaborators that extended over two continents before you go calling the kettle black keep in mind that the turkish government was a strong supporter of nazi germany and played a vital role in supplying it with oil until the allies invaded iran complaining about armenian complicity with the nazis does little good when turkey played a much bigger role tell me kmagnacca were you high on arromdian of asala sdpa arf when you wrote that humane behavior and tolerance of turks was a legend even years ago when they accepted tens of thousands of jews from spain who were fleeing from the spanish inquisition again many jewish families escaping from nazi armenians and hitler s nazi germany took refugee in turkiye during the s turkish people have unselfishly given home protection and freedom to the jews over the centuries including to thousands and thousands of them during the second world war get a life or a cup of turkish coffee history of the jews in the islamic countries chapters in parts i and ii jarusalem zalman shazar center for jewish history baron salo w a social and religious history of the jews new york columbia university press vols iii v xviii benardete mair jose hispanic culture and character of the sephardic jews new york sepher hermon press nd corrected edition original publication lewis bernard eds christians and jews in the ottoman empire new york holmes meier vol i the central lands la turquie dan les archives des grand orient de france les loges in jean louis bacque graumont and paul dumont eds economie et societes dans l empire ottoman paris centre national de la reserche scientifique inalcik halil turkish jewish relations in the ottoman empire sevilla sharon moshe turkiye yahudileri tarihsel bakis jerusalem the hebrew university source john dewey the new republic vol nov pp happy the minority jews which has had no christian nation to protect it and one recalls that the jews took up their abode in fanatic turkey when they were expelled from europe especially spain by saintly christians and they have lived here for centuries in at least as much tranquility and liberty as their fellow turkish subjects all being exposed alike to the rapacity of their common rulers to one brought up as most americans have been in the gladstonian and foreign missionary tradition the condition of the jews in turkey is almost a mathematical demonstration that religious differences have had an influence in the tragedy of turkey only as they were combined with aspirations for a political separation which every nation in the world would have treated as treasonable one readily reaches the conclusion that the jews in turkey were fortunate he also stated that they armenians traitorously turned turkish cities over to the russian invader that they boasted of having raised an army of one hundred and fifty thousand men to fight a civil war and that they burned at least a hundred turkish villages and exterminated their population turkey and the holocaust an interview with stanford j shaw history who recently completed two books the jews of the ottoman empire and the turkish republic and turkey and the holocaust turkey s role in rescuing turkish and european jewry from nazi persecution shaw chairs the undergraduate interdepartmental degree program in near eastern studies and has organized the program for the study of ottoman and turkish jewry he is affiliated with the g e von grunebaum center for near eastern studies editor how did you come to write these two books on turkey and european and turkish jews shaw basically i m an ottoman historian but i m also jewish i ve spent twenty five years studying ottoman history and as time went along whenever i found materials on the ottoman jews i collected them but i never did anything with them until a couple of years ago when i suddenly realized that was the th anniversary of the jews being expelled from spain and coming to turkey then the sephardic temple down on wilshire avenue invited me to give a series of three lectures on ottoman jewry these lectures were greatly appreciated and i became motivated to undertake further research to develop a book the jews of the ottoman empire and the turkish republic this book is quite different from the works of most jewish historians who tend to look at the jews in any country more from the viewpoint of the jews and the jewish community and rely mainly on jewish sources i view my subject as an ottoman historian and i approach the jews of the ottoman empire largely from the point of view of ottoman society using largely ottoman sources after i finished this book and sent it to the press i came across additional documents relating to turkish jews during world war ii in the completed book i had said that turkey had done a good deal to rescue the jews during world war ii but i did not actually have many details then i found a batch of documents in the foreign ministry archive relating to actions taken by turkish diplomats to help the jews before and during the holocaust it was too late to add this new information to the book in press so i decided to write a second book i conducted further research mainly in the archives of the foreign ministry in ankara and the turkish embassy and consulate in paris the result was the second book turkey and the holocaust which details how turkey helped rescue jews from the nazis how exactly did they do this the story takes place over a number of years the book presents the material in three parts first of which deals with the period before the holocaust when the nazis came to power in germany in they immediately started dismissing jews and anti nazi germans from universities hospitals scientific institutes and the like turkey at that moment was just beginning the process of reforming its universities and it saw in these jews who were being fired from their positions in germany a good source of new talent to help modernize the turkish universities within three months after the nazis started dismissing these jews turkey arranged to take many of them in they were brought to turkey and were given appointments as professors in the turkish universities as heads of scientific institutes and as medical personnel in hospitals about to major jewish professors came to turkey in the s ernst reuter a german political scientist spent the war years teaching political science in turkey after world war ii he was mayor of berlin during the berlin airlift fritz neimark a major german jewish economist came to turkey and helped establish a modern school of economics in istanbul a man named reichenbach who was rescued from the nazis by turkey and spent the war years in turkey eventually came to ucla where he became a professor of philosophy other german jewish emigres engaged in cultural activities in turkey one such was karl ebert who had been a leading theatrical producer in berlin until he was expelled by the nazis he went to turkey where he organized the turkish national theater and the turkish national opera company in ankara with the help of paul hindemuth so the first section of the book covers this first phase when jews were being persecuted in germany and rescued by turkey oddly enough the german emigres when they were in turkey did not seem to think too badly of germany they regarded themselves more as germans than jews and they did not join in the anti nazi activities of the local turkish jewish community i even found letters from the nazi representatives to turkey praising these german jewish refugees for their work in promoting the idea of german culture even though these people had been persecuted by the nazis and rescued by the turks they shared the nazis feelings of aryan racial superiority over the turks the second part of the book deals with the holocaust which began in when the nazis occupied france in europe at that time and especially in france there were about turkish jews they had migrated to europe for various reasons from about the turn of the century onward most of them had settled in europe during the turkish war for independence after world war i when greece was threatening to overrun turkey the greeks had persecuted the jews throughout the nineteenth century and the jews feared what might happen to them if the greeks took over in turkey many jews fled to france during the s and s many also abandoned their turkish citizenship and became french citizens suddenly the nazis invaded france in and started introducing all sorts of anti jewish laws the turkish jews soon found that it was not worth very much to be a french jew but that it was worth a lot to be a turkish jew how so turkey remained neutral through most of world war ii it retained its embassies and consulates in all the nazi occupied countries until it finally entered the war on the side of the allies at the end of during the war therefore turkey was in a position to defend its citizens against anti jewish measures and the actions that turkish diplomats took form the second chapter of the book turkish diplomats who were stationed in france in particular intervened to protect jews of turkish citizenship from the nazis for those turkish jews who had retained their turkish citizenship there was generally no problem if they were arrested and sent to a concentration camp the turkish diplomats would communicate with the commanders of the camp and other officials and say in effect these people are turkish citizens you can t do this to them and the turkish jews would be released if their businesses were confiscated the turkish diplomats would protest and the businesses would be restored the nazis in general wanted to keep the friendship of turkey they hoped to be able to use turkey as a gateway for an invasion of the middle east and they also wanted to obtain chromium and manganese from turkey in order to keep turkish friendship they usually accepted these interventions on behalf of turkish jews the turkish diplomats sometimes went to the concentration camps to secure the release of turkish jews at times they even boarded trains hauling turkish jews to auschwitz for extermination and succeeded in getting them off the train most of the foreign jews were sent to a concentration camp at a place called drancy in paris and that s where most of the intercession by turkish consuls took place the greater problem came with the turkish jews who had abandoned their turkish citizenship and had become french citizens the consuls couldn t declare that these people were turkish citizens because they were not my book includes photographs of jews lining up in front of the turkish consulate either to get passports to return to turkey or to get a restoration of their turkish citizenship this was a bureaucratic matter so processing the application would take some time in the meantime it was a real emergency because the nazis would arrest jews on the streets for almost nothing the nazis would even arrest them if they had radios or telephones in their apartments because radios and telephones were forbidden to jews to take care of these former turkish jews the turkish diplomats invented a document called gayri muntazem vatandash or irregular fellow citizen the document said in effect this person is a former turkish citizen who has applied for the restoration of his turkish citizenship in the meantime we would appreciate it if you would treat him as if he were a turkish citizen the diplomats wrote the document in turkish and put their seals on it since the nazis could not read turkish on the whole they accepted these papers as certificates of citizenship by this means the turkish diplomats were able to rescue many jews who had relinquished their turkish citizenship actually the nazis were of two minds about the turkish defense of jews on the one hand the nazi foreign ministry which wanted to retain the friendship of turkey was in favor of accepting these interventions on the other hand himmler and eichmann wanted all jews exterminated at times himmler and eichmann were able to prevail and some of the turkish jews were sent off to auschwitz before the turkish consuls could do anything do you have statistics on how many turkish jews were rescued there were about turkish jews in europe before world war ii about of whom were living in france most of the information in this section of the book relates to the situation in france i have published the letters that the turkish consuls sent to the nazi officials and the letters that came back in reply generally the nazis said that if the turkish consul would present documents certifying that arrested individuals are turkish citizens and promise to send them out of france the nazis would release them from the concentration camp the turkish consuls also organized special trains to take turkish jews from nazi occupied territory back to turkey these trains ran regularly in and the nazis gave the turkish jews visas so they could pass out of nazi territory but the trains were often held up by the nazi influenced governments of eastern europe croatia serbia and bulgaria because these governments really didn t want the jews to escape as a result of the turkish consuls efforts about to of the turkish jews in france were saved another were sent off to auschwitz where most of them died the remaining either escaped across the border into spain or fled to the area of southern france occupied by the italians who treated jews much better than the nazis did at the end of however italy fell out of the war and that was the end for those jews as well incidentally the turkish diplomats in nazi occupied greece also worked to rescue jews in that country the second part of your book then deals with turkish diplomats acting to rescue jews of turkish citizenship or turkish origin from nazi persecution yes and there is an aside i might add here in their interventions on behalf of turkish jews the turks cited their treaty with germany which stated that turkish citizens in german territory would be treated the same as german citizens in turkey on that basis the turks maintained that the nazis could not discriminate against turkish citizens who are jews the nazis claimed and the vichy government agreed that they were not discriminating because they were treating all jews equally turkey protested saying you are dividing our citizens according to religion but the turkish constitution requires that all citizens be treated equally regardless of religion therefore you cannot single out turkish jews american consuls in paris by contrast accepted the nazi argument and told american jews who were being persecuted by the nazis that they couldn t do anything about it because the american jews were being treated the same as other jews the third part of the book takes place in turkey which was the principal center during the holocaust for activities aimed at the rescue of eastern european jews the kwish agency an organization established by jews in palestine to help resettle jews to palestine set up an office in istanbul in under the leadership of chaim barlas other jewish organizations in palestine especially the kibbutzes also sent representatives to istanbul to set up headquarters these groups first tried to contact jews in eastern europe to find out what was happening today we know about the holocaust but at that time people didn t know what was going on they didn t imagine the nazis could do the things they were doing and so the first step was to get information and the turkish government let them use the turkish mails to send letters to their relatives and friends in eastern europe the jewish organizations found out what was happening when they received replies later on when the nazis began to intercept such letters the jews received assistance also from the vatican nuncio angelo roncali who served as the vatican representative in istanbul from to and later became pope john xxiii as the vatican representative during the war he used the facilities of the catholic church to supplement what the turkish government was doing to assist jewish agencies in contacting jews in eastern europe with the cooperation of the turkish government these agencies then sent hard currency food clothing and even railroad and steamship tickets to jews in czechoslovakia bulgaria romania and hungary they weren t able to help much in poland because by then the nazis had wiped out almost all the polish jews whenever possible the rescue agencies arranged for the jews to get out of eastern europe either by train through the so called orient express route to istanbul or by boat through the black sea to istanbul turkey was not eager for all these refugees to remain within its borders during the war because it was being blockaded and was suffering terrible shortages of food and clothing the government therefore facilitated the movement of the non turkish jewish refugees from turkey to palestine either by the taurus express railroad through the mountains to syria and palestine or by small boats across the eastern mediterranean from southern turkey to palestine these efforts were bitterly opposed not only by the nazis but also by the british who did not want any more jewish immigration to palestine because they feared it would hurt their relations with the arabs the british constantly pressured the turkish government to stop this traffic and send those jews back in a few cases the turkish government yielding to british pressure did send the boats back for example in one incident the steamship struma with some jewish refugees from romania was sent back by the turkish government as a result of the intervention of the british ambassador when that ship was sunk by a soviet submarine all were lost except one person nevertheless all told the turkish government allowed no fewer than eastern european jews to pass through turkish territory and move on to palestine during the second world war the turkish authorities also provided these refugees with facilities and money and gave them permission to send money and food out of the country many of these jews who passed through turkey may still be living in israel yes and their children but let s return for a moment to the first group the turkish jews who came from europe they did not go on to palestine they stayed in turkey it was the non turkish eastern european jews who passed through turkey en route to palestine their story is very interesting and you have rescued it from obscurity many studies have been made of the holocaust but most of them do not focus on the eastern european or middle eastern jews most of the scholarship has centered on the western european jews of whom million were massacred by the nazis my study deals with a much smaller number of people i have tried to round out the picture and i hope my book will persuade other scholars to undertake further investigations in the history of eastern jews when it comes to numbers the german jews were also relatively small in number most of the millions slain were polish jews the rescue of eastern european jews may not seem so significant compared with the total of million who were murdered but it meant a lot to those who were saved about three fourths of the book consists of documents translations of many documents they are included because the story is not well known not only are people in the west unaware of the courageous actions of the turkish diplomats even the people of turkey did not know the story i felt that they would not fully understand this remarkable achievement unless they could see the documents what languages are used in the documents most of them are in turkish or french some are in hebrew there is a great deal of material in hebrew about the organization of the boats going to palestine the passengers and so on but i did not go into those details extensively i describe mostly what turkey did so most of my documents are in turkish or french a few documents are in english the jewish groups in istanbul did not necessarily cooperate with one another to rescue jews in fact they often fought with one another they took turns trying to get the turkish government to deport rival groups for example some of the kibbutz groups felt that the jewish agency was run by western european jews who were interested only in helping western european jews finally in president roosevelt sent a personal representative ira hirschman who had been an executive of bloomingdale s department store in new york city and hirschman managed to reconcile their differences the documents related to his mission are in english i also obtained many documents from serge klarsfeld a holocaust historian in france who mainly worked on the french jews his father was killed by the nazis he gave me materials he had gathered in the german archives on the turkish jews so i didn t personally consult the german archives i believe that much more can be learned from the german archives and i hope someone someday will make the effort this new book fits in well with your teaching doesn t it right i m giving a course on the history of the jews of the ottoman empire i first gave the course two years ago in addition to research writing and teaching i ve been actively involved in the commemoration of the th anniversary of the coming of the jews to the ottoman empire among other things i helped organize a large international conference on the subject which was held in istanbul in now that your books are finished and the conference has taken place what do you plan to do next i m working on two new books one is a history of the turkish war for independence which took place after world war i during the years to the turks warded off the efforts of the victorious european powers to occupy turkey and end its independence the second book is a study of sultan abdul hamid ii the last major sultan who ruled from to he was an important modernizer in his own way although he also suppressed all sorts of political movements stanford j shaw received a b a in history and an m a in british history he then shifted to near eastern history earning a second m a and a ph d at princeton as a doctoral candidate at princeton he spent two years abroad studying at the school of oriental and african studies university of london the university of cairo the american university at cairo and the university of istanbul he taught at harvard before coming to ucla in his postdoctoral research has been supported by the john simon guggenheim foundation the american research institute in turkey the social science research council the national endowment for the humanities the fulbright program and isop he has received honorary degrees from harvard university and bosporus university bebek istanbul turkey and medals of honor for lifetime contributions to the fields of islamic and turkish studies from the center for research in islamic history art and culture in istanbul and from the american friends of turkey in washington d c in addition to undertaking many professional service activities and public lectures in both the united states and turkey shaw has also produced eight books and one edited volume his history of the ottoman empire and modem turkey vols has been published in many editions six editions or reprints from and translated into turkish and french his book the jews of the ottoman empire and the turkish republic macmillan london and new york university press will be published in turkish translation by the turkish historical society istanbul his turkey and the holocaust turkey s role in rescuing turkish and european jewry from nazi persecution will be published by macmillan publishers london and new york university press in a pamphlet summarizing the book was published in ankara turkey in serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	given the massacre of the muslim population of karabag by armenians in article apr kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes let me clearify mr turkish armenia is not getting itchy she is simply letting the world know that she will no longer sit there quiet and let turks get away with their famous tricks armenians do remember of the turkish invasion of the greek island of cypress while the world simply watched and the turkish karabag is next as for cyprus in turkiye stepped into cyprus to preserve the lives of the turkish population there this is nothing but a simple historical fact unfortunately the intervention was too late at least for some of the victims mass graves containing numerous bodies of women and children already showed what fate had been planned for a peaceful minority the problems in cyprus have their origin in decades of oppression of the turkish population by the greek cypriot officials and their violation of the co founder status of the turks set out in the constitution the coup d etat engineered by greece in to execute a final solution to the turkish problem was the savage blow that invoked turkiye s intervention turkiye intervened reluctantly and only as a last resort after exhausting all other avenues consulting with britain and greece as the other two signatories to the treaty to protect the integrity of cyprus there simply was not any expansionist motivation in the turkish action at all this is in dramatic contrast to the greek motivation which was openly expansionist stated as enosis union with greece since the creation of independent cyprus in the turkish population although smaller legally had status as the co founder of the republic with the greek population the greek cypriots with the support of enosis minded greeks in the mainland have consistently ignored that status and portrayed the island as a greek island with a minority population of turks the turks of cyprus are not a minority in a greek republic and they found the only way they could show that was to assert their autonomy in a separate republic turkiye is not satisfied with the status quo she would rather not be involved with the island but given the dismal record of brutal greek oppression of the turkish population in cyprus she simply cannot leave the fate of the island s turks in the hands of the greeks until the turkish side is satisfied with whatever accord the two communities finally reach to guarantee that history will not repeat itself to rob turkish cypriots of their rights liberties and their very lives source cyprus the tale of an island a h rizvi p throughout cyprus following the greek cypriot premeditated onslaught of december the turkish sectors all over cyprus were completely besieged by greeks all telephonic telegraphic and postal communications between these sectors were cut off and the turkish cypriot community s contact with each other and with the outside world was thus prevented turkish quarter of nicosia and suburbs greek cypriot armed elements broke into hundreds of turkish homes and fired at the unarmed occupants with automatic weapons killing at random many turks including women children and elderly persons turks were killed and wounded they also carried away as hostages more than turks including women and children whom they forced to walk bare footed and in night dresses across rough fields and river beds throughout cyprus the greek cypriot administration deprived turkish cypriots including ministers mps and turkish members of the public services of the republic of their right to freedom of movement in his report no s of december to the security council the un secretary general stated in this respect the following restrictions on the free movement of civilians have been one of the major features of the situation in cyprus since the early stages of the disturbances these restrictions have inflicted considerable hardship on the population especially the turkish cypriot community and have kept tension high throughout cyprus supply of petrol was completely denied to the turkish sections makarios addresses un security council on july after being ousted by the greek junta coup in the beginning i wish to express my sincere thanks to all the members of the security council for the great interest they have shown in the critical situation which has been created in cyprus after the coup organized by the military regime in greece and carried out by the greek army officers who were serving in the national guard and were commanding it on the road travelling to the south to the freedom of the north a turkish woman was seriously wounded and her four month old baby was riddled with bullets from an automatic weapon fired by a greek cypriot mobile patrol which had ambushed the car in which the mother and her baby were travelling to the turkish region the baby died in her mother s arms this wanton murder of a four month old baby which shocked foreign observers as much as the turkish community was not committed by irresponsible persons but by members of the greek cypriot security forces according to the mother s statement the greek police patrol had chased their car and deliberately fired upon it serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	armenian scholars on the extermination of million muslim people in article amazon cs duke edu wiener duke cs duke edu eduard wiener writes why don t you post this in english mike this appears to mean milan it seems that some greek has fucked you is that what turns you on the truth needs to be told over and over again there are armenians who of course witnessed the armenian genocide of million muslim people between but their voices of truth are suppressed today in the hollow din of anti turkish muslim campaign by the asala sdpa arf terrorism and revisionism triangle of the fascist x soviet armenian government well that is what i saw in the library what s your problem with this source k s papazian patriotism perverted baikar press boston pp it seems that terrorism against their own co nationals has been a prominent part of the revolutionary activities of the dashnag leaders of the caucasus organized to fight the turks these chieftains have been more successful in their fight against their armenian opponents in turkey and the caucasus very often defenseless and innocent p the fact remains however that the leaders of the turkish armenian section of the dashnagtzoutune did not carry out their promise of loyalty to the turkish cause when the turks entered the war and a call was sent for armenian volunteers to fight the turks on the caucasian front p thousands of armenians from all over the world flocked to the standards of such famous fighters as antranik kery dro etc the armenian volunteer regiments rendered valuable service to the russian army in the years of source adventures in the near east by a rawlinson jonathan cape bedford square london first published pages memoirs of a british officer who witnessed the armenian genocide of million muslim people p second paragraph i had received further very definite information of horrors that had been committed by the armenian soldiery in kars plain and as i had been able to judge of their want of discipline by their treatment of my own detached parties i had wired to tiflis from zivin that in the interests of humanity the armenians should not be left in independent command of the moslem population as their troops being without discipline and not under effective control atrocities were constantly being committed for which we should with justice eventually be held to be morally responsible p third paragraph armenian troops who having pillaged and destroyed all the moslem villages in the plain caravans of refugees were in the meanwhile constantly arriving from the plain from which the whole moslem population was fleeing with as much of their personal property as they could transport seeking to obtain security and protection p first paragraph in those moslem villages in the plain below which had been searched for arms by the armenians everything had been taken under the cloak of such search and not only had many moslems been killed but horrible tortures had been inflicted in the endeavour to obtain information as to where valuables had been hidden of which the armenians were aware of the existence although they had been unable to find them p first paragraph shortly afterwards the head of the miserable column appeared there were in all about persons mostly old men and women and children with a few ox carts ponies and donkeys carrying all their worldly possessions except a few sheep that they were driving before them their leader interviewed bekir bey and was told to keep farther on into the hills where he would be able to cross the frontier into turkey unmolested by his enemies p first paragraph the armenians from the plain were attacking the kurdish line with artillery with probably a large force in support p first paragraph the arrival of this british brigade was followed by the announcement that kars province had been allotted by the supreme council of the allies to the armenians and that announcement having been made the british troops were then completely withdrawn and armenian occupation commenced hence all the trouble for the armenians at once commenced the wholesale robbery and persecution of the muslem population on the pretext that it was necessary forcibly to deprive them of their arms in the portion of the province which lies in the plains they were able to carry out their purpose and the manner in which this was done will be referred to in due course the following news from turan news agency in baku azerbaijan is brought to you as a service of azerbaijan aydinlig association p o box berkeley ca fax email farid mem odu edu azerbaijan s government appeals to compatriots all over the world refugees from kelbajar perished in their escape lorries situation in the region of kelbajar armenian army continues attack on fizuli press conference of the chief of press service of president of azerbaijan azerbaijanis picket in front of ministry of foreign affairs of russia picket of sadvalers in moscow attack of armenian units stopped statement of ministry of foreign affairs of azerbaijan azerbaijan s government appeals to compatriots all over the world baku april turan today azerbaijan s government appealed to azeris all over the world in connection with escalation of the armenian aggression against the republic it is stressed in appeal that the experience of five years of fighting for independence from imperial chains shows a grim process the war against azerbaijan under the pretence of protecting the human rights of the armenians of ukhari upper garabag has meant the destruction of azeri villages and towns occupation of percent of the territory thousand new refugees in addition to thousand already in place this is all the price of fighting for liberty from russian imperial rule is said in the document azerbaijan s government appeals to all compatriots to make every effort to inform the people of the world about the truth in azerbaijan and to assistance in solving the problems facing the young state it is stressed in the appeal that there is urgent need for medicine food experienced doctors and financial help to settle refugees from kelbajar fizuli and lachin regions and to render medical aid for the sick and the wounded men o refugees from kelbajar perished in their escape lorries baku april turan today during the evacuation from kelbajar region refugees on board two lorries were killed in the fire from the armenian tanks on the only road to leave kelbajar according to press service of azerbaijan president no one survived the tragedy o situation in the region of kelbajar baku april turan attempts to evacuate the rest of citizens encircled on alpine villages of the region of kelbajar went on within the last twenty four hours evacuation helicopters could not land near these villages because of shelling from the armenian side and existence of fog measures are undertaken to air drop food and medicine to the encircled people several hundred people succeed within the last twenty four hours to get out of the region of kelbajar via mountain range refugees are settled in the neighboring regions of azerbaijan and in ganja authorities face serious problem with rendering refugees medical aid and food the number of refugees from kelbajar is over people azerbaijan is not capable of handling a disaster of this magnitude armenian army continues attack on fizuli baku april turan the region of fizuli of azerbaijan situated outside of the territory of daglig nagorno garabag has been subjected to heaviest attacks of armenian army for the fourth day about armored technique and more than soldiers of the enemy are taking part in the attack armenian units broke the defence line of the azeri forces and occupied the ruling height from where the town is shelled from grad installations this morning there is heavy destructions in the town and more than people are dead population of the town is hastily evacuated press conference of the chief of press service of president of azerbaijan baku april turan fifty five thousand refugees from the region of kelbajar were taken out by o clock on april informed the chief of the press service of president of azerbaijan arif aliev today journalists were also informed at the press conference that international red cross is helping to accept and render refugees medical aid there is an urgent need to supply the refugees with tents food and medical aid arif aliev informed that as a result of the ongoing tragedy brought on by the latest aggression of armenia the leadership of azerbaijan intends to appeal to azerbaijanis and all those who treasure human life all over the world for help concerning the reaction of the international community to aggression of armenia aliev said the department of state of the usa has expressed its anxiety to leadership of armenia participants of peace efforts in daglig nagorno garabag under csce rafaelli mareska and chetin strongly blamed the aggression of armenia against azerbaijan leader of press service informed that tomorrow ambassador of azerbaijan in russia hikmet haji zade will conduct a press conference in moscow detailed information on latest events in the region of kelbajar of azerbaijan will be given at the press conference azerbaijanis picket in front of ministry of foreign affairs of russia baku april turan azerbaijanis living in moscow picketed in front of the building of the ministry of foreign affairs of russia picket was conducted as a token of protest against participation of russian units in capture of the region of kelbajar of azerbaijan by armenians about people took part in the picket organized by azerbaijani society dayag picket of sadvalers in moscow baku april members of sadval society picketed before the building of permanent representation of azerbaijan in moscow picketers were demanding the return of lezghins lands as if annexed by azerbaijan ambassador of azerbaijan in moscow hikmet haji zade classified this action as provocation aimed at creating a further inter ethnic conflict in azerbaijan he marked in his talk with the turan correspondent that he does not rule out a connection between the armenian aggression in the region of kelbajar and this anti azerbaijani action of the sadval society in moscow he also marked that people do not mean the lezghian nationality in the whole society of lezghins sadval registered in moscow in demands the creation of a lezghistan state which never existed before on the northern territories of azerbaijan attack of armenian units stopped baku april turan attack of armenian army on the town of fizuli which began in the last twenty four hours is stopped informs the press service of the ministry of defence of azerbaijan in the result of undertaken measures tanks and a number of the attackers were destroyed advance units of the armenian army retreated several kilometers chairman of the parliament isa gambar visited the town of fizuli and met with commanders of the units of the national army and local citizens today statement of ministry of foreign affairs of azerbaijan baku april turan ministry of foreign affairs of azerbaijan issued a statement in connection with aggression of armenia in the region of kelbajar of azerbaijan it is stated in the statement that regular units of the armed forces of armenia captured the town of kelbajar on april attack of armenian units which began on march deep in the territory of azerbaijan still continues armenia has occupied at present sq km of the territory of azerbaijan spreading of armenian aggression far away from ukhari upper garabag proves that the armenian azerbaijani conflicts has entered a specially dangerous phase this is the result of non recognition of armenia as an aggressor by the international community is marked in the document it is stressed in the statement that the units of the th russian army are participating in the armenian attack this casts doubt on the sincerity of russian mediation efforts in finding a peaceful solution to the conflict it is marked in conclusion that aggressive actions of armenia have wrecked the negotiation process under aegis of csce the document contains the appeal to the world community to stop armenian aggression and to use political and economic sanctions against the aggressor serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	nazi armenian philosophy race above everything and before everything in article apr kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes buch of crap and you know it nagarno karabagh has always been part of armenia and it was stalin who gave it to the azeris go back and review the history if a dog s prayers were answered bones would rain from the sky did you know that the word karabag itself is a turkish name before before the russians and their zavalli kole armenians drove all the turks muslims out it was a turkish majority town well anyway it is not surprising that armenians also collaborated with the nazis wholly opportunistic the dashnaktzoutun have been variously pro nazi pro russia pro soviet armenia pro arab pro jewish as well as anti jewish anti zionist anti communist and anti soviet whichever was expedient john roy carlson arthur derounian cairo to damascus alfred a knopf new york p as a dear friend put it the tzeghagrons armenian racial patriots was the youth organization of the dashnaktzoutun it was based in boston where asala sdpa arf terrorism triangle is located but had followers in armenian colonies all over the world literally tzeghagron means to make a religion of one s race the architect of the armenian racial patriots was garegin nezhdeh a nazi armenian who became a key leader of collaboration with hitler in world war ii in he had been invited to the united states by the central committee of the dashnaktzoutun to inspire and organize the american armenian youth nezhdeh succeeded in unifying many local armenian youth groups in the tzeghagrons starting with chapters in the initial year the tzeghagrons grew to chapters and became the largest and most powerful nazi armenian organization nezhdeh also provided the tzeghagrons with a philosophy the racial religious beliefs in his racial blood as a deity race above everything and before everything race comes first quoted in john roy carlson real name arthur derounian the armenian displaced persons in armenian affairs winter p footnote now wait there is more the gruesome extent of february s killings of azeris by armenians in the town of hojali is at last emerging in azerbaijan about men women and children dead in the worst outrage of the four year war over nagorny karabakh the figure is drawn from azeri investigators hojali officials and casualty lists published in the baku press diplomats and aid workers say the death toll is in line with their own estimates the february attack on hojali by armenian forces was one of the last moves in their four year campaign to take full control of nagorny karabakh the subject of a new round of negotiations in rome on monday the bloodshed was something between a fighting retreat and a massacre but investigators say that most of the dead were civilians the awful number of people killed was first suppressed by the fearful former communist government in baku later it was blurred by armenian denials and grief stricken azerbaijan s wild and contradictory allegations of up to dead the state prosecuter aydin rasulov the cheif investigator of a man team looking into what azerbaijan calls the hojali disaster said his figure of people dead was a minimum on preliminary findings a similar estimate was given by elman memmedov the mayor of hojali an even higher one was printed in the baku newspaper ordu in may dead people named and more than bodies reported unidentified this figure of nearly dead is quoted as official by leila yunusova the new spokeswoman of the azeri ministry of defence francois zen ruffinen head of delegation of the international red cross in baku said the muslim imam of the nearby city of agdam had reported a figure of bodies received at his mosque from hojali most of them civilians we did not count the bodies but the figure seems reasonable it is no fantasy mr zen ruffinen said we have some idea since we gave the body bags and products to wash the dead mr rasulov endeavours to give an unemotional estimate of the number of dead in the massacre don t get worked up it will take several months to get a final figure the year old lawyer said at his small office mr rasulov knows about these things it took him two years to reach a firm conclusion that people were killed and wounded when soviet troops and tanks crushed a nationalist uprising in baku in january those nationalists the popular front finally came to power three weeks ago and are applying pressure to find out exactly what happened when hojali an azeri town which lies about miles from the border with armenia fell to the armenians officially people have so far been certified as dead being the number of people that could be medically examined by the republic s forensic department this is just a small percentage of the dead said rafiq youssifov the republic s chief forensic scientist they were the only bodies brought to us remember the chaos and the fact that we are muslims and have to wash and bury our dead within hours of these people were women and were children under years old gunshots killed people shrapnel killed and axes or blunt instruments killed exposure in the highland snows killed the last three thirty three people showed signs of deliberate mutilation including ears noses breasts or penises cut off and eyes gouged out according to professor youssifov s report those bodies examined were less than a third of those believed to have been killed mr rasulov said files from mr rasulov s investigative commission are still disorganised lists of azeri militiamen are dead here six policemen there and in handwriting of a mosque attendant the names of corpses brought to be washed in just one day the most heartbreaking account from witnesses interviewed so far comes from towfiq manafov an azeri investigator who took a helicopter flight over the escape route from hojali on february there were too many bodies of dead and wounded on the ground to count properly in hojali people by the stream and the road and visible around nakhchivanik village mr manafov wrote in a statement countersigned by the helicopter pilot people waved up to us for help we saw three dead children and one two year old alive by one dead woman the live one was pulling at her arm for the mother to get up we tried to land but armenians started a barrage against our helicopter and we had to return there has been no consolidation of the lists and figures in circulation because of the political upheavals of the last few months and the fact that nobody knows exactly who was in hojali at the time many inhabitants were displaced from other villages taken over by armenian forces the independent london serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re nazi eugenic theories circulated by cpr unconventianal peace in article apr cirrus com chrism cirrus com chris metcalfe writes now we have strong evidence of where the cpr really stands unbelievable and disgusting it only proves that we must never forget a unconventional proposal for peace in the middle east not so unconventional eugenic solutions to the jewish problem have been suggested by northern europeans in the past eugenics a science that deals with the improvement as by control of human mating of hereditory qualities of race or breed webster s ninth collegiate dictionary i would be thankful for critical comments to the above proposal as well for any dissemination of this proposal for meaningful discussion and enrichment elias davidsson post box reykjavik iceland critical comment you can take the nazi flag and holocaust photos off of your bedroom wall elias you ll never succeed chris metcalfe chris solid job at discussing the inherent nazism in mr davidsson s post oddly he has posted an address for hate mail which i think we should all utilize and elias wie nur dem koph nicht alle hoffnung schwindet der immerfort an schalem zeuge klebt peace pete
talk.politics.mideast	re ten questions about israel in article igc apc org cpr igc apc org center for policy research writes from center for policy research cpr subject ten questions about israel ten questions to israelis i would be thankful if any of you who live in israel could help to provide accurate answers to the following specific questions these are indeed provocative questions but they are asked time and again by people around me is it true that the israeli authorities don t recognize israeli nationality and that id cards which israeli citizens must carry at all times identify people as jews or arabs not as israelis that s true israeli id cards do not identify people as israelies smart huh is it true that israeli stocks nuclear weapons if so could you provide any evidence yes there s one warhead in my parent s backyard in beer sheva that s only some miles from dimona you know evidence i saw it is it true that in israeli prisons there are a number of individuals which were tried in secret and for which their identities the date of their trial and their imprisonment are state secrets yes but unfortunately i can t give you more details that s secret you see thanks elias davidsson iceland email elias ismennt is you re welcome now let me ask you a few questions if you don t mind is it true that the center for policy research is a one man enterprise is it true that your questions are not being asked bona fide is it true that your statement above these are indeed provocative questions but they are asked time and again by people around me is not true noam
talk.politics.mideast	re why does us consider yigal arens to be a dangerous to humanity in article bimacs bitnet ehrlich bimacs bitnet gideon ehrlich writes the readers of this forum seemed to be more interested in the contents of those files so it will be nice if yigal will tell us why do american authorities consider yigal arens to be dangerous adl authorities seem to view a lot of people as dangerous including the millions of americans of arab ancestry perhaps you can answer the question as to why the adl maintained files and spied on adc members in california and elsewhere friendly rivalry perhaps perhaps yigal is a greenpeace member or the naacp or a reporter or a member of any of the dozens of other political organizations ethnic minorities occupations that the adl spied on why does the adl have an interest in that person paranoia if one does trust either the us government or the adl what an additional information should he send them the names of half the posters on this forum unless they already have them gideon ehrlich anwar
talk.politics.mideast	re ten questions about israel why does the center for policy research pose such unbelievably stupid and loaded questions to this newsgroup what are you a think tank or a fish tank every time i start to believe i have seen the outer boundaries of your stupidity you come up with one step beyond when will it end man can you actually have brain enough to dress and feed yourself each morning
talk.politics.mideast	re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes in article apr kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes in article apr ee rochester edu terziogl ee rochester edu esin terzioglu writes my response to the shooting down of a turkish airplane over the armenian air space was because of the ignorant posting of the person from your country turks and azeris consistantly want to drag armenia into the karabakh conflict with azerbaijan the karabakhi armenians who have lived in their homeland for years cut off from armenia and given to azeris by stalin are the ones directly involved in the conflict they are defending themselves against azeri aggression agression that has no mercy for inocent people that are costantly shelled with mig s and othe russian aircraft at last i hope that the u s insists that turkey stay out of the karabakh crisis so that the repeat of the cyprus invasion will never occur again armenia is involved in fighting with azarbaijan it is armenian soldiers from mainland armenia that are shelling towns in azarbaijan you might wish to read more about whether or not it is azeri aggression only in that region it seems to me that the armenians are better organized have more success militarily and shell azeri towns repeatedly i don t wish to get into the cyprus discussion turkey had the right to intervene and it did perhaps the intervention was not supposed to last for so long but the constant refusal of the greek governments both on the island and in greece to deal with reality is also to be blamed for the ongoing standoff in the region lastly why is there not a soc culture armenia i vote yes for it after all it is now free regards deniz
talk.politics.mideast	re turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece armenia azeris message id apr news uiowa edu mr napoleon responds to mr napoleon well panos mr tamamidis the way you put it it is only the turks who bear the responsibility of the things happening today that is hard to believe for somebody trying to be objective when it comes to conflicts like our countries having you cannot blame one side only there always are bad guys on both sides what were you doing on anatolia after the ww anyway do you think it was your right to be there there were a couple millions of greeks living in asia minor until someone had to protect them if not us who is that so or you were taking advantage of weakness of ottoman empire to grab some land as soon as you got green lights from allied forces you occupied izmir and other cities in western turkey you killed and raped millions people without any reason of course you paid the price mustafa kemal ataturk made you swim in aegean sea but not far enough your aggressions thru turkey at anytime in the past did not get you any reward and shall not get you anywhere i am not saying that conflicts started with that it is only not one side being the aggressive and the ither always suffering it is sad that we both still are not trying to compromise i remember the action of the turkish government by removing the visa requirement for greeks to come to turkey i thought it was a positive attempt to make the relations better compromise on what the invasion of cyprus the involment of turkey in greek politics the refusal of turkey to accept miles of territorial waters as stated by international law the properties of the greeks of konstantinople the ownership of the islands in the greek lake sorry aegean what compromise are you talking about on cyprus that is not greece business to join the island to greece that is up to people in the island to live or not to live together they made their decision and they are living separetely now there is a peace there greeks can t slaughter turks anymore because turkish peacemaking force is there your dream will never come true mile territorialwater are you joking or dreaming we can declare our miles territorial water which can come close to athens how would you like it if you have any guts why don t you shoot at some turkish ships in your dream mile territorial waters we do not have any city called konstantinople we have a city called istanbul all the greeks in istanbul are being treated just any other turks there is no difference among people in turkey you look at your own backyard first before talking about human rights in turkey what are the rights of turks in greece nothing they do not even have basic human rights like right to have property fredom of religion fredom of press fredom of vote elect their community leaders government of greece publicly encourages people to destroy and burn schools religious places houses and farms belong to turkish minority then greek government forces these minorities to go to turkey without anything with them you will dream to see aegean sea as greek lake but it will never happen think about the war between turkey and greece in the river called sakarya flood days filled with blood in the greeks i mentioned who wouldn t talk to me are educated people they have never met me but they know i am bad person because i am from turkey politics is not my business and it is not the business of most of the turks when it comes to individuals why the hatred any person who supports the policies of the turkish goverment directly or indirecly is a bad person it is not your nationality that makes you bad it is your support of the actions of your goverment that make you bad people do not hate you because of who you are but because of what you are you are a supporter of the policies of the turkish goverment and as a such you must pay the price you mean that any person who supports the actions and policies of the government of greece is a good person that is your greek idea to say turks are bad people we know who we are and proud to be turks anywhere in the world that is not greeks business to tell us what kind of people we are you are not at position to judge people because you are not civilized enough to give equal rights to your own minorities millions of minorities are being treated as third class citizen their rights are taken away from them and they have no voices under the government of greece they are almost being treated as slaves even though we are getting into th century therefore do not make me laught at you so that makes me think that there is some kind of brainwashing going on in greece after all why would an educated person treat every person from a nation the same way can you tell me about your history books and things you learn about greek turkish encounters during your schooling take it easy you do not need brainwashing to turn people against the turks just as greeks arats slavs kurds and all other people who had the luck to be under turkish occupation they will talk to you about murders rapes distruction you do not learn about turks from history books you learn about them from people who experienced first hand turkish friendliness the government of greece is actively supporting terrorism against turkey armenian and kurdish terrorists have headquarters in athens they are being trained in special camps in greece they are taught how to kill innocent women and children this not a claim this is a fact known by whole world in conlusion you are in action to murder rape destroy the innocent people i do not take you seriously because you are not at any positions to talk about human rights and dignity your own government the government of greece actively supports atrocities in bosnia serbs s barbarism pleases your government please napoleon think twice before you write anything about turks and turkey you are the worst in human right conditions and treatment of the minorities who wants to be a fried with someone whose government does not respect the human rights supports terrorism in turkey barbaric actions in bosnia treats turkish minorities as third class citizen and take away all of their rights treating them as slaves at the beginning of th century aykut atalay atakan napoleon
talk.politics.mideast	jokes and international relations in article apr freenet carleton ca aa freenet carleton ca suat kiniklioglu a k a kubilay kultigin wrote kk bugunlerde jewish jokes muhabbetlerinden esinlenerek sunu kk yazayim dedim kk kk israel was able to divert the jewish lobby from the greeks kk for example by persuading it that supporting the armenian kk resolution which came before the senate in february kk could help sour turco israeli relations in addition the kk israeli embassy in washington was active in ensuring that the kk resolution failed for instance by assisting turkish jews to kk travel to wahington to underline the affinity between israel kk and turkey kk kk there was no doubt about the debt which turkey felt it owed kk to israel over this matter even four months before the re kk solution came up for consideration as enior member of the kk turkish foreign ministry said his country was very grateful kk to israel the cooperation in his view refelecting the kk maturity of the bilateral relationship the experience over kk the armenian issue has convinced senior figures in turkey kk that the pro israel network in washington can indeed deliver kk the desired results kk kk robins philip turkey and the middle east chathm house kk papers p kk kk papers p kk got to go now not so fast you have a rather warped sense of logic you are telling us that because israel wishes to have good relations with turkey even at the expense of armenians or armenia makes it bad for turks to tell racist jokes against jews thus we can infer if israel had poor relations with turkey it would be alright to post such horrible jokes against jews you impress nobody david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
talk.politics.mideast	re accounts of anti armenian human right violations in azerbaijan in article apr freenet carleton ca aa freenet carleton ca suat kiniklioglu a k a kubilay kultigin writes kk david yes kk give it a rest will you no kk it is increasingly becoming very annoying barbarism is rather annoying for you now isn t it especially when it comes from from a country azerbaijan that claims turkey as its number one ally protector and mentor david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
talk.politics.mideast	re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes in article apr kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes stuff deleted country turks and azeris consistantly want to drag armenia into the karabakh conflict with azerbaijan gimme a break capital letters or not the above is pure nonsense it seems to me that short sighted armenians are escalating the hostilities while hoping that turkey will stay out stop and think for a moment will you armenia doesn t need anyone to drag her into the conflict it is a part of it the karabakhi armenians who have lived in their homeland for years cut off from armenia and given to azeris by stalin are the ones directly involved in the conflict they are defending themselves against azeri aggression huh you didn t expect azeri s to be friendly to forces fighting with them within their borders at last i hope that the u s insists that turkey stay out of the karabakh crisis so that the repeat of the cyprus invasion will never occur again you re not playing with a full deck are you where would turkey invade are you throwing the cyprus buzzword around with s c g in the header in hopes that the greek netters will jump the gun yes indeed turkey has the military prowess to intervene what she wishes she had however is the diplomatic power to stop the hostilities and bring the parties to the negotiating table that s hard to do when armenians are attacking azeri towns armenian leaders are lacking the statesmanship to recognize the futility of armed conflict and convince their nation that a compromise that leads to stability is much better than a military faits accomplis that s going to cause incessant skirmishes think of or years down the line both of the newly independent countries need to develop economically and neither one is going to wipe the other out these people will be neighbors would it not be better to keep the bad blood between them minimal if you belong to the armenian diaspora keep in mind that what strikes your fancy on the map is costing the local armenians dearly in terms of their blood and future it s easy to be comfortable abroad and propagandize craziness to have your feelings about turks tickled the armenians in armenia and n k will be there with the same people you seem to hate as their neighbors for maybe years more the sooner there s peace in the region the better it is for them and everyone else i d push for compromise if i were you instead of hitting the caps lock and spreading inflammatory half truths cheers bm
talk.politics.mideast	re how many israeli soldiers what are you joking dark so much for q how many occupying israeli soldiers terrorists does it take to kill a year old native child a four two fasten his arms one shoots in the face and one writes up a false report there is a similar idea here in ex ussr about how many militioners it needs to place a new electric lamp the answer is nine one stays on a table and holds the lamp four hold the table and turn it and yet four run around the table in opposite direction not to make the first feel bad when being turned pitily it lacks this kind of dark humour as nick s msg does to my mind the signature should be smth like albert i ii i i i i i i ii
talk.politics.mideast	re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes in article apr sol ctr columbia edu deniz mandolin ctr columbia edu deniz akkus writes in article apr kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes in article apr ee rochester edu terziogl ee rochester edu esin terzioglu writes henrik my response to the shooting down of a turkish airplane over the henrik armenian air space was because of the ignorant posting of the henrik person from your country turks and azeris consistantly want to henrik drag armenia into the karabakh conflict with azerbaijan the henrik karabakhi armenians who have lived in their homeland for henrik years cut off from armenia and given to azeris by stalin are henrik the ones directly involved in the conflict they are defending henrik themselves against azeri aggression agression that has no mercy henrik for inocent people that are costantly shelled with mig s and henrik othe russian aircraft henrik at last i hope that the u s insists that turkey stay out of the henrik karabakh crisis so that the repeat of the cyprus invasion will henrik never occur again da armenia is involved in fighting with azarbaijan it is armenian da soldiers from mainland armenia that are shelling towns in azarbaijan well this is your opinion turkish azeris can bark all they want since the above is untrue however i am sure you guys would have never brought up armenia s involvement if karabakhi armenians had had heavy losses da you might wish to read more about whether or not it is azeri aggression da only in that region it seems to me that the armenians are better da organized have more success militarily and shell azeri towns da repeatedly read what the new york times that is publishing anti armenian articles nop i have my resources look everyone knows how aggressive turks azeris have been in the past armenians are not gona sit around and watch fire works by azeris taught by turks da it seems to me that the armenians are better organized have more success da militarily and shell azeri towns repeatedly buch of non sence crap and you know it who the hell you think you are talking to azeris are fighting local armenians in nagarno karabakh you tell me who has more mig s freedom fighters in nagarno karabakh or azerbaijan again i will say it for the last time armenia is not involved in this war and you guys want to bring this up in order to cover up the turkish involvment in the karabakh go ahead repeat as much as you want da i don t wish to get into the cyprus discussion turkey had the right to da intervene and it did perhaps the intervention was not supposed to da last for so long but the constant refusal of the greek governments both da on the island and in greece to deal with reality is also to be blamed da for the ongoing standoff in the region not a chance you can not convince me based on your reasons that your government did the right thing to invade cyprus da lastly why is there not a soc culture armenia i vote yes for it da after all it is now free well i am not in the position to agree or disadree with you
talk.politics.mideast	re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes henrik in article apr kth se hilmi er dsv su se hilmi eren responsed to henrik quayle kpc com who wrote h the armenians in nagarno karabagh are simply defending their rights h to keep their homeland and it is the azeris that are invading their h territorium he homeland first nagarno karabagh was armenians homeland today he fizuli lacin and several villages in azerbadjan he are their homeland can t you see the he the great armenia dream in this greater armenia would stretch from karabakh to the black sea to the mediterranean so if you use the term greater armenia use it with care he with facist methods like he killing raping and bombing villages the last move was the he blast of a truck with kurdish refugees trying to he escape the from lacin a city that was given to the kurds he by the armenians it has always been up to the azeris to end their announced winning of karabakh by removing the armenians when the president of azerbaijan elchibey came to power last year he announced he would be be swimming in lake sevan in armeniaxn by july well he was wrong if elchibey is going to shell the armenians of karabakh from aghdam his people will pay the price if elchibey is going to shell karabakh from fizuli his people will pay the price if elchibey thinks he can get away with bombing armenia from the hills of kelbajar his people will pay the price it also seems other non azeri minorities in azerbaijan have understood they are next in line in this process of forced azerification or deportation just look at the situation with the lezgians about the kurds what kurds according to the azerbaijani government there are no kurds in azerbaijan can t they make up their minds oh i see there are only kurds when the azeris want them to be kurds and anyway this kurd refugee story as have other stories are simple fabrications sourced in baku modified in ankara other examples of this are armenia has no border with iran and the ridiculous story of the intercepting of armenian military conversations as appeared in the new york times supposedly translated by somebody unknown from armenian into azeri turkish submitted by an unnamed special correspondent to the ny times from baku real accurate h however i hope that the armenians will force a turkish airplane h to land for purposes of searching for arms similar to the one h that happened last summer turkey searched an american plane h carrying humanitarian aid bound to armenia h no henrik these turkish planes should be shot down with no questions asked he don t speak about things you don t know american cargo planes he were heading to armenia when the turkish authorities he announced that they were going to search these cargo he planes of these planes returned to it s base in germany he of these planes were searched in turkey the content of he of the other planes not hard to guess is it it was sure not he humanitarian aid your facts in error shipments of all kinds that have transversed turkey have been either searched re routed or confiscated some american planes were searched others were re routed others were untouched rail shipments were held up last fall and last winter from entering armenian from turkey for the purpose of aiding in the economic collapse of armenia wheat was confiscated other shipments were exchanged with crap and dirt then shipped to armenia u s planes don t have to use turkish air bases the u s uses these bases to bomb iraq anyway u s planes can fly over georgia which they have found is easier than to endure unnecessary expressions of turkish chauvinism through searches of cargo which to this day have not revealed anything other than a paranoid turkish military he search turkish planes you don t know what you are talking about he since it s content is announced to be weapons well big mouth ozal said military weapons are being provided to azerbaijan from turkey yet demirel and others say no no wonder you are so confused he turkey s government has announced that it s giving weapons he to azerbadjan since armenia started to attack azerbadjan he it self not the karabag province so why search a plane for weapons he since it s content is announced to be weapons you are correct all turkish planes should be simply shot down nice slow moving air transports david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
talk.politics.mideast	jews islam dr frankenstien i have found jewish people very imagentative and creative jewish religion was the foundation for christianity and islam in other words judaism has fathered both religions now islam has turned against its father i may say it is ironic that after communizem threat is almost gone religion wars are going to be on the raise i thought the idea of believing on one god was to unite all man kind how come both jews and islam which believe on the same god the god of ebrahim are killing each other is this like dr frankenstien s story how are you going to stop this from happening how are you going to deal with so many muslims nuking them would distroy the whole world would god get mad since you have killed his followers you believe on the same god same heaven and the same hell after all what is the peacefull way of ending this saga man kind needs religion since it sets up the rules and the regulations which keeps the society in a healthy state a religion is mostly a sets of rules which people have experienced and know it works for the society the praying keeps the sole healthy and meditates it god does not care for man kinds pray but man kind hopes that god will help him when he prays religion works mostly on the moral issues and trys to put away the materialistic things in the life but the religious leaders need to make a living through religion so they may corrupt it or turn it to their own way to make their living i e muslims have to pay percent of their income to the mullahs i guess the rabie gets his cut too is in it that religion should be such that everybody on planet earth respects each other be good toward each other helps one another respect the mother nature is in that heaven and hell are created on earth through the acts that we take today is in it that within every man there is good and bad he could choose either one then he will see the outcome of his choice how can we prevent man kind from going crazy over religion how can we stop another religious killing field under poor gods name what are your thoughts do you think man kind would to come its senses before it is too late p s on the side do you think that moses saw the god on mount sina why would god go to top of the mountain he created the earth he could have been anywhere why on top the mountain was it because people thought to see god you have to reach to the skies heavens why god kept coming back to middle east was it because they created god through their imagination is that why jewish people were told by god they were the chosen ones profit mohammad was married to khadijeh she was a jewish she taught him how to trade she probably taught him about judaism quran is mostly copy right of taurah sp old testement do you think god wrote quran makeh was a trade city before islam do you think it was made to be the center of islamic world because mohammad wanted to expand his trade business is that why god has put his house in there i think this religious stuff has gone too far all man kind are going to hurt from it if they do not wise up look at david koresh how that turned out i am afraid in the bigger scale the jews and the muslims will have the same ending religion is needed in the sense to keep people in harmony and keep them doing good things rather than plotting each others distruction there is one earth one life and one god let s all man kind be good toward each other god help us all peace
talk.politics.mideast	re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes in article apr kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes in article c qu h if news iastate edu oyalcin iastate edu onur yalcin writes cancellum onur yalcin secondly the island of which the name is more correctly spelled onur yalcin as cyprus has never been greek but rather it has been home to onur yalcin a bi communal society formed of greeks and turks it seems that onur yalcin you know as little about the history and the demography of the onur yalcin island as you know about the essence of turkey s onur yalcin military intervention to it under international agreements bi communal society then why did not greece invade cyprus henrik your ignorance manifests itself in an awkward form of intransigence i m not going to spend time to review with you the recent history of cyprus if you are really interested i can provide you with a number of references on the issue just send me email for that onur yalcin be that as it may an analogy between an act of occupation in onur yalcin history and what is going on today on azerbaijani land can only onur yalcin be drawn with the expansionist policy that armenia is now pursuing buch of crap and you know it nagarno karabagh has always been part of armenia and it was stalin who gave it to the azeris go back and review the history the armenians in nagarno karabagh are simply defending their rights to keep their homeland and it is the azeris that are invading their teritory onur yalcin but i could agree that it is not for us to issue diagnoses to onur yalcin the political conduct of countries and promulgate them in such onur yalcin terminology as itchy bitchy i was not the one that stated it relax you re swinging fists into open air i was agreeing with you assuming that would be one of your points that you did not state you may not be very much used to it to be agreed with that is but take it more easily however i hope that the armenians will force a turkish airplane to land for purposes of searching for arms similar to the one no henrik believe me you don t hope that that happened last summer turkey searched an american plane carrying humanitarian aid bound to armenia was that after or before one french plane changed its route to avoid inspection onur yalcin oyalcin iastate edu un punto in piu
talk.politics.mideast	re turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece armenia azeris in article apr news uiowa edu mau herky cs uiowa edu mau napoleon writes from article qvgu inn np lynx unm edu by osinski chtm eece unm edu marek osinski well it did not take long to see how consequent some greeks are in requesting that thessaloniki are not called solun by bulgarian netters so napoleon why do you write about konstantinople and not istanbul marek osinski thessaloniki is called thessaloniki by its inhabitants for the last years the city was never called solun by its inhabitants instabul was called konstantinoupolis from ad until about the s that s about years there many people alive today who were born in a city called konstantinoupolis how many people do you know that were born in a city called solun napoleon are you one of those people who were born when istanbul was called konstantinopolis i don t think so if those people use it because they are used to do so then i understand but open any map today except a few that try to be political you will see that the name of the city is printed as istanbul so don t try to give any arguments to using konstantinopolis except to cause some flames to make some political statement tankut atan tankut iastate edu achtung baby
talk.politics.mideast	re ten questions about israel in article igc apc org cpr igc apc org center for policy research writes ten questions about arab countries i would be thankful if any of you who live in arab countries could help to provide accurate answers to the following specific questions these are indeed provocative questions but they are asked time and again by people around me is it true that many arab countries don t recognize israeli nationality that people with israeli stamps on their passports can t enter arabic countries is it true that arabic countries such as jordan and syria have undefined borders and that arab governments from until today have refused to state where the ultimate borders of their states should be is it true that arab countires refused to sign the chemical weapon convention treaty in paris in is it true that in arab prisons there are a number of individuals which were tried in secret and for which their identities the date of their trial and their imprisonment are state secrets a is it true that some arab countries like syria harbor nazi war criminals and refuse to extradite them b is it true that some arab countries like saudi arabia prohibit women from driving cars is it true that jews who reside in the muslim countries are subject to different laws than muslims is it true that arab countries confiscated the property of entire jewish communites forced to flee by anti jewish riots is it true that israel s prime minister y rabin signed a chemical weapons treaty that no arab nation was willing to sign is it true that syrian jews are required to leave a deposit before leaving the country and are no longer allowed to emmigrate despite promises made by hafez assad to george bush is it true that jews in muslim lands are required to pay a special tax for being jews is it true that intercontinental hotel in jerusalem was built on a jewish cemetary with roads being paved over grave sites and gravestones being used in jordanian latrines is it really cheesy and inappropriate to post lists of biased leading questions a is it less appropriate if information implied in mr davidsson s questions is highly misleading adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
talk.politics.mideast	re ten questions about israel in article igc apc org cpr igc apc org center for policy research writes from center for policy research cpr subject ten questions about israel ten questions to israelis i would be thankful if any of you who live in israel could help to provide accurate answers to the following specific questions these are indeed provocative questions but they are asked time and again by people around me is it true that the israeli authorities don t recognize israeli nationality and that id cards which israeli citizens must carry at all times identify people as jews or arabs not as israelis although the hebrew expression le um is used the id card specifically states on the nd page ezrachut yisrealit israeli citizen this is true for all israeli citizens no matter what their ethnicity in the united states most official forms have race caucasian black amerindian etc is it true that the state of israel has no fixed borders and that israeli governments from until today have refused to state where the ultimate borders of the state of israel should be funny i have a number of maps and all of them have fixed borders is it true that israeli stocks nuclear weapons if so could you provide any evidence probably yes so what is it true that in israeli prisons there are a number of individuals which were tried in secret and for which their identities the date of their trial and their imprisonment are state secrets apart from mordechai vanunu who had a trial behind closed doors there was one other espionage case the nutty professor at the nes ziona biological institute who was a k g b mole who was tried in camera i wouldn t exactly call it a state secret the trial was simply tried behind closed doors i hate to disappoint you but the united states has tried a number of espionage cases in camera is it true that jews who reside in the occupied territories are subject to different laws than non jews not jews israeli citizens jordanian law is in effect in the west bank but the knesset passed a law that israeli law would be binding on israeli citizens residing in the west bank these citizens could be jews israeli muslims druze or israeli christians it has nothing to do with religion is it true that jews who left palestine in the war to avoid the war were automatically allowed to return while their christian neighbors who did the same were not allowed to return anyone who was registered jew muslim christian could return you might be confusing this with the census taken in june on the west bank after the six day war in this instance if the arab was not physically present he couldn t reside on the west bank e g if he had been visting jordan is it true that israel s prime minister y rabin signed an order for ethnical cleansing in as is done today in bosnia herzegovina no not even if you drowned him in bourbon scotch or brandy is it true that israeli arab citizens are not admitted as members in kibbutzim not true although a minority there are some israeli arabs living on kibbutzim on the other hand at my age i wouldn t be admitted to a kibbutz nor could the family join me not that i would be so thrilled to do so in the first place the kibbbutz movement places candidates under rigorous membership criteria many israeli jews are not admitted is it true that israeli law attempts to discourage marriages between jews and non jews the religious status quo in israel has marriage and divorce handled by the religious courts the rabbanut handles marriage and divorce for jews the muslim shaaria courts are for muslims the christian denominations have their religious courts and the druze have their own courts the entire religious establishment jewish muslim druze christian wants to keep it that way is it true that hotel hilton in tel aviv is built on the site of a muslim cemetery i believe it s adjacent to a former muslim cemetary from what i heard and i d like to get feedback from muslins on the net sanctity of cemetaries is not held that sancrosanct as it is held by jews the current israeli ministry of trade and industry on agron road in jerusalem is housed in a former hotel that was built by arabs in the s on the site of an arab cemetary josh backon vms huji ac il thanks elias davidsson iceland email elias ismennt is
talk.politics.mideast	re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes in article mucit apr vein cs rochester edu mucit cs rochester edu bulent murtezaoglu writes in article apr kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes stuff deleted henrik country turks and azeris consistantly want to drag armenia into the henrik karabakh conflict with azerbaijan bm gimme a break capital letters or not the above is pure nonsense it bm seems to me that short sighted armenians are escalating the hostilities again armenians in karabakh are simply defending themselves what do want them to do lay down their arms and let azeris walk all over them bm while hoping that turkey will stay out stop and think for a moment bm will you armenia doesn t need anyone to drag her into the conflict it bm is a part of it armenians knew from the begining that turks were fully engaged training azeris militarily to fight against karabakhi armenians henrik the karabakhi armenians who have lived in their homeland for henrik years cut off from armenia and given to azeris by stalin are the henrik ones directly involved in the conflict they are defending henrik themselves against azeri aggression bm huh you didn t expect azeri s to be friendly to forces fighting with them bm within their borders well history is sad remember those are relocated azeris into the armenian land of karabakh by the stalin regime henrik at last i hope that the u s insists that turkey stay out of the henrik karabakh crisis so that the repeat of the cyprus invasion will never henrik occur again bm you re not playing with a full deck are you where would turkey invade it is not up to me to speculate but i am sure turkey would have stepped into armenia if she could bm are you throwing the cyprus buzzword around with s c g in the header bm in hopes that the greek netters will jump the gun absolutely not i am merely trying to emphasize that in many cases history repeats itself bm yes indeed turkey has the military prowess to intervene what she wishes bm she had however is the diplomatic power to stop the hostilities and bring bm the parties to the negotiating table that s hard to do when armenians bm are attacking azeri towns so let me understand in plain words what you are saying turkey wants a peaceful end to this conflict not i will believe it when i see it now as far as attacking what do you do when you see a gun pointing to your head do you sit there and watch or defend yoursef fat chance do you remember what azeris did to the armenians in baku all the barberian acts especially against mothers and their children i mean burning people alive bm armenian leaders are lacking the statesmanship to recognize the bm futility of armed conflict and convince their nation that a compromise that bm leads to stability is much better than a military faits accomplis that s bm going to cause incessant skirmishes armenians in karabakh want peace and their own republic they are not asking much they simply want to get back what was taken away from them and given to azeris by stalin bm think of or years down the line both of the newly independent bm countries need to develop economically and neither one is going to wipe bm the other out these people will be neighbors would it not be better bm to keep the bad blood between them minimal don t get me wrong i also want peaceful solution to the conflict but until azeris realize that the armenians in karabakh will defend themselves against aggresion bm if you belong to the armenian diaspora keep in mind that what strikes bm your fancy on the map is costing the local armenians dearly in terms of bm their blood and future again you are taking different turns armenia has no intension to grab any land from azerbaijan the armenians in karabakh are simply defending themselves until a solution is set bm it s easy to be comfortable abroad and propagandize bm craziness to have your feelings about turks tickled the armenians bm in armenia and n k will be there with the same people you seem to hate bm as their neighbors for maybe years more the sooner there s peace in bm the region the better it is for them and everyone else i d push for bm compromise if i were you instead of hitting the caps lock and spreading bm inflammatory half truths it is not up to me to decide the peace initiative i am absolutely for it but in the meantime if you do not take care of yourself you will be wiped out such as the case in the era of of the armenian massacres
talk.politics.mideast	re flame and a jewish home in palestine in article c rxh ljy imag fr maler vercors imag fr oded maler writes in article c hjbc hc bony bony com jake bony bony com jake livni writes typical arabic thinking if we are guilty of something so is everyone else unfortunately for you nabil jewish tribes are not nearly as susceptible to the fratricidal murdering that is still so common among arabs in the middle east there were no killings between the jewish tribes on the way i don t like this comment about typical thinking you could state your interpretation of exodus without it as i read exodus i can see a lot of killing there which is painted by the author of the bible in ideological religious colors the history in the desert can be seen as an ethos of any nomadic people occupying a land that s why i think it is a great book with which descendants arabs turks and mongols can unify as well you somehow missed nabil s comments even though you included it in your followup the number which could have arrived to the holy lands must have been substantially less ude to the harsh desert and the killings between the jewish tribes on the way i am not aware of killings between jewish tribes in the desert the point of typical thinking here is that while arabs still today act in the manner you describe like any nomadic people occupying a land killing and plundering each other with regularity others have somehow progressed over time it is not surprising then that arabs often accuse others infidels of things that they are quite familiar with civil rights violations religious discrimination ethnic cleansing land theft torture and murder it is precisely this mechanism at work that leads people to say that jewish tribes were killing each other in the desert even without support for such a ludicrous suggestion jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	re why does us consider yigal arens to be a dangerous to humanity in article c sdck n news cso uiuc edu eshneken ux cso uiuc edu edward a shnekendorf writes come on most if not all arabs are sympathetic to the palestinian war against israel i wouldn t bet on it arab governments generally don t care much about the palestineans and their struggle but find it useful for political purposes back home they are happy to leave the palestineans largely under israeli control because that leaves the job of controlling them to the israelis the israelis don t like this job any more than king hussein of jordan liked it and he managed to kill them off at the rate of thousands per month when they started an intifada in jordan the governments of syria lebanon and egypt all feel similarly however proclaiming public support for the palestinean war against israel deflects criticism from deep problems at home and lends an air of legitimacy to even the most brutal arab tyrants arab people probably aren t much more sympathetic palestineans have shown a willingness to destabilize and plunder in jordan lebanon and kuwait and are viewed with suspicion elsewhere you might still be right in sympathy to the war against israel but i suspect that many arabs far removed from the immediate border with israel e g in kuwait or morroco couldn t care less jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	how many israeli soldiers does it take to kill a yr old child jle the great writes jle q how many occupying israeli soldiers terrorists does it jle take to kill a year old native child jle a four jle two fasten his arms one shoots in the face jle and one writes up a false report a couple of months ago jle wrote a terrible c program it would never have passed compilation this is one describes jle the great cut here and save to jle c include stdio h include signal h define loser x define childish x define unhumoristic x define vulgar x define mossad agent x define j l e loser childish unhumoristic vulgar mossad agent static void abort printf even if she wanted jle s mother couldn t abort this program printf n n n n void main signal sigint abort printf this program does not help jewish arab relations n printf hit c to abort n infinite loop jle never comes out of his world while j l e cut here to compile this wonderfool program on a unix machine try cc o jle jle c or make jle then type jle at your prompt i tried it it works great tsiel tsiel ohayon jcpl co jp if you do not receive this e mail please let me employer may not have same know as soon as possible if possible opinions if any two percent of zero is almost nothing
talk.politics.mideast	re ten questions about israel backon vms huji ac il writes in article igc apc org cpr igc apc org center for policy research writes is it true that in israeli prisons there are a number of individuals which were tried in secret and for which their identities the date of their trial and their imprisonment are state secrets apart from mordechai vanunu who had a trial behind closed doors there was one other espionage case the nutty professor at the nes ziona biological institute who was a k g b mole who was tried in camera i wouldn t exactly call it a state secret the trial was simply tried behind closed doors i hate to disappoint you but the united states has tried a number of espionage cases in camera one of those us cases was john pollard ed
talk.politics.mideast	re jews islam dr frankenstien some of your article was cut off on the right margin but i will try and answer from what i can read in article c ssqe dps odin corp sgi com kaveh gate koi corp sgi com kaveh smith writes i have found jewish people very imagentative and creative jewish religion was the foundation for christianity and islam in other words judaism has fathered both religions now islam has turned against its father i may say it is ironic that after communizem threat is almost gone religion wars are going to be on the raise i thought the idea of believing on one god was to unite all man kind how come both jews and islam which believe on the same god the god of ebrahim are killing each other is this like dr frankenstien s story how are you going to stop this from happening how are you going to deal with so many muslims nuking them would distroy the whole world would god get mad since you have killed his followers you believe on the same god same heaven and the same hell after all what is the peacefull way of ending this saga judaism did not father islam we had many of the same prophets but judaism ignores prophets later prophets including jesus christ who christians and muslims believe in and mohammed the idea of believing in one god should unite all peoples however note that christianity and islam reflect the fact that there are people with different views and the rights of non christians and non muslims are stated in each religion man kind needs religion since it sets up the rules and the regulations which keeps the society in a healthy state a religion is mostly a sets of rules which people have experienced and know it works for the society the praying keeps the sole healthy and meditates it god does not care for man kinds pray but man kind hopes that god will help him when he prays religion works mostly on the moral issues and trys to put away the materialistic things in the life but the religious leaders need to make a living through religion so they may corrupt it or turn it to their own way to make their living i e muslims have to pay percent of their income to the mullahs i guess the rabie gets his cut too we are supposed to pay of our income after all necessities are paid please note that this is on a personal basis if you are poor there is no need to pay quite the contrary this money most often goes to the poor in each in country and to the poor muslims around the world also this money is not required in the human sense i e a muslim never knocks at your door to ask for money and nobody makes a list at the mosque to make sure you have paid and we surely don t pass money baskets around during our prayer services is in it that religion should be such that everybody on planet earth respects each other be good toward each other helps one another respect the mother nature is in that heaven and hell are created on earth through the acts that we take today is in it that within every man there is good and bad he could choose either one then he will see the outcome of his choice how can we prevent man kind from going crazy over religion how can we stop another religious killing field under poor gods name what are your thoughts do you think man kind would to come its senses before it is too late p s on the side do you think that moses saw the god on mount sina why would god go to top of the mountain he created the earth he could have been anywhere why on top the mountain was it because people thought to see god you have to reach to the skies heavens why god kept coming back to middle east was it because they created god through their imagination is that why jewish people were told by god they were the chosen ones god s presence is certainly on earth but since god is everywhere god may show signs of existence in other places as well we can not say for sure where god has shown signs of his existence and where he has not profit mohammad was married to khadijeh she was a jewish she taught him how to trade she probably taught him about judaism quran is mostly copy right of taurah sp old testement do you think god wrote quran makeh was a trade city before islam do you think it was made to be the center of islamic world because mohammad wanted to expand his trade business is that why god has put his house in there the qur an is not a copyright of the taurah muslims believe that the taurah the bible and the qur an originally contained much the same message thus the many similiarities however the taurah and the bible have been translated into other languages which has changed their meaning over time a translation also reflects some of the personal views of the translator s the qur an still exists in the same language that it was revealed in arabic therefore we know that mankind has not changed its meaning it is truly what was revealed to mohammed at that time there are many scientific facts which were not discovered by traditional scientific methods until much later such as the development of the baby in the mother s womb i think this religious stuff has gone too far all man kind are going to hurt from it if they do not wise up look at david koresh how that turned out i am afraid in the bigger scale the jews and the muslims will have the same ending only god knows for sure how it will turn out i hope it won t but if that happens it was the will of god religion is needed in the sense to keep people in harmony and keep them doing good things rather than plotting each others distruction there is one earth one life and one god let s all man kind be good toward each other god help us all peace please send this mail to me again so i can read the rest of what you said and yes may god help us all steve
talk.politics.mideast	re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes in article apr kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes in article mucit apr vein cs rochester edu mucit cs rochester edu bulent murtezaoglu writes henrik country turks and azeris consistantly want to drag armenia into the henrik karabakh conflict with azerbaijan bm gimme a break capital letters or not the above is pure nonsense it bm seems to me that short sighted armenians are escalating the hostilities henrik again armenians in karabakh are simply defending themselves what do henrik want them to do lay down their arms and let azeris walk all over them news reports i ve seen say otherwise both location and motives wise caps don t change facts bm while hoping that turkey will stay out stop and think for a moment bm will you armenia doesn t need anyone to drag her into the conflict it bm is a part of it henrik armenians knew from the begining that turks were fully engaged henrik training azeris militarily to fight against karabakhi armenians so should i at this point break into caps and start talking about defense etc i don t know how fully engaged turkey is was though henrik the karabakhi armenians who have lived in their homeland for henrik years cut off from armenia and given to azeris by stalin are the henrik ones directly involved in the conflict they are defending henrik themselves against azeri aggression bm huh you didn t expect azeri s to be friendly to forces fighting with them bm within their borders henrik well history is sad remember those are relocated azeris into henrik the armenian land of karabakh by the stalin regime so i hear this justifies bloodshed n years after the fact henrik at last i hope that the u s insists that turkey stay out of the henrik karabakh crisis so that the repeat of the cyprus invasion will never henrik occur again bm you re not playing with a full deck are you where would turkey invade henrik it is not up to me to speculate but i am sure turkey would have stepped henrik into armenia if she could why would turkey do that do you not realize that this is a local clash that turkey never wished to see happen turkey has other plans for region like economic revival co operation etc good stuff in other words i d be happy to bicker with armenians over trade barriers and such on usenet rather than who killed whom in what way which i detest doing and wouldn t do bm are you throwing the cyprus buzzword around with s c g in the header bm in hopes that the greek netters will jump the gun henrik absolutely not i am merely trying to emphasize that in many henrik cases history repeats itself even if one buys into your implicit premise the sane thing to do would be to try not to provoke turkey as was done in if there d been a democratic government instead of a bunch of idiots in athens at the time everybody would have stayed home with their families i have no wish to go into the cyprus quarrel but i suspect what i ve said is not only accurate but also palatable to all parties involved bm yes indeed turkey has the military prowess to intervene what she wishes bm she had however is the diplomatic power to stop the hostilities and bring bm the parties to the negotiating table that s hard to do when armenians bm are attacking azeri towns henrik so let me understand in plain words what you are saying turkey henrik wants a peaceful end to this conflict not so what do you think we want war death and destruction henrik i will believe it when i see it no if you allow yourself to believe it you just might see it henrik now as far as attacking what do you do when you see a gun pointing henrik to your head do you sit there and watch or defend yoursef fat chance this kind of childish rhetoric doesn t help anthing henrik do you remember what azeris did to the armenians in baku all the henrik barberian acts especially against mothers and their children i mean henrik burning people alive now some azeri will come out and give a description of similar stuff perpetrated by armenians one should re hash stuff like this often to keep the hatred alive right bm armenian leaders are lacking the statesmanship to recognize the bm futility of armed conflict and convince their nation that a compromise that bm leads to stability is much better than a military faits accomplis that s bm going to cause incessant skirmishes henrik armenians in karabakh want peace and their own republic they are henrik not asking much they simply want to get back what was taken away henrik from them and given to azeris by stalin well they obviously aren t getting anywhere with their current methods of asking not very peaceful i d say bm think of or years down the line both of the newly independent bm countries need to develop economically and neither one is going to wipe bm the other out these people will be neighbors would it not be better bm to keep the bad blood between them minimal henrik don t get me wrong i also want peaceful solution to the henrik conflict but until azeris realize that the armenians in henrik karabakh will defend themselves against aggresion i don t know if you want a solution or just want to exchange slogans peace isn t what s happening right now furthermore what s happening right now isn t condusive to peace you can spend days and nights raving about how right the armenian position is and i m sure there ll be others who d be happy to talk to you by arguing the other side if entrenched positions lead to war and if people want peace than they should sit down and talk about a compromise armenia isn t strong enough to exercise the we think we re right and we have the bombs so we ll do whatever we want so there style of foreign relations yes you can type stalin in caps and give one sided atrocity stories etc but for peace you need to be willing to talk to the other side you personally can choose not to do that of course this being just usenet the people in power shouldn t be so childish bm if you belong to the armenian diaspora keep in mind that what strikes bm your fancy on the map is costing the local armenians dearly in terms of bm their blood and future henrik again you are taking different turns armenia has no intension henrik to grab any land from azerbaijan the armenians in karabakh henrik are simply defending themselves until a solution is set azeri s would disagree with you on this and the maps i ve seen support what they d be saying it doesn t seem likely that a solution will be reached in this manner bm it s easy to be comfortable abroad and propagandize bm craziness to have your feelings about turks tickled the armenians bm in armenia and n k will be there with the same people you seem to hate bm as their neighbors for maybe years more the sooner there s peace in bm the region the better it is for them and everyone else i d push for bm compromise if i were you instead of hitting the caps lock and spreading bm inflammatory half truths henrik it is not up to me to decide the peace initiative i am absolutely henrik for it it didn t look it when i read your posting it would seem to me that if you can spew mis information about a boogey man you can also talk about how one might avoid the nastiness fair henrik but in the meantime if you do not take care of yourself henrik you will be wiped out such as the case in the era of of henrik the armenian massacres you don t realize i can say the same thing about the turkish massacres yes boys and girls let s always talk about how bad and nasty things were let s do that so we re overwhelmed by anger and let s do that so our kids will also be hateful sounds crazy doesn t it don t do it then bm
talk.politics.mideast	re news briefs from kh in article sehari vincent iastate edu farzin apollo ntt jp farzin mokhtarian writes from kayhan havai o dr namaki deputy minister of health stated that infant mortality under one year old in iran went down from per thousand before the revolution to per thousand at the end of last month dr cheghadr ba namakand they just wait until they are teenagers to kill them o dr namaki also stated that before the revolution only f children received vaccinations to protect them from various deseases but this figure reached at the end of huh o during the visit of mahathir mohammad the prime minister of malaysia to iran agreements for cooperation in the areas of industry trade education and tourism were signed according to one agreement iran will be in charge of building malaysia s natural gas network yup iri also granted a great deal of reconstruction of houses and buildings in war torn areas to malaysia khak too sareshoon one of the only industries we really have is construction and there are all these unemployed youth and they give money to malaysia to do what iranians can and should be doing farzin mokhtarian mash javad
talk.politics.mideast	basil opinions re water on the brain in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes in article apr nysernet org astein nysernet org alan stein writes i guess hasan finally revealed the source of his claim that israel diverted water from lebanon his imagination alan h stein astein israel nysernet org mr water head i never said that israel diverted lebanese rivers in fact i said that israel went into southern lebanon to make sure that no water is being used on the lebanese side so that all water would run into jordan river where there israel will use it head of course posting some hard evidence or facts is much more difficult you have not bothered to substantiate this in any way basil do you know of any evidence that would support this i can just imagine a news report from ancient times if hasan had been writing it newsflash cairo ap ancient press israel today denied egypt acces to the red sea in a typical display of israelite agressiveness the leader of the israelite slave revolt former prince moses parted the red sea the action is estimated to have caused irreparable damage to the environment egyptian authorities have said that thousands of fisherman have been denied their livelihood by the parted waters pharaoh s brave charioteers were successful in their glorious attempt to cause the waters of the red sea to return to their normal state unfortunately they suffered heavy casualties while doing so hasan shai guday stealth bombers os software engineer thinking machines corp the winged ninjas of the skies cambridge ma
talk.politics.mideast	re turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece armenia azeris ok my aykut what about the busload of greek turists that was torched and all the the people in the buis died happened oh about years ago in instanbul what about the greeks in the islands of imbros and tenedos they are not allowed to have churches any more instead momama turkey has turned the church into a warehouse i got a picture too what about the pontian greeks of trapezounta and sampsounta what you now call trabzon and sampson they spoke a thousand year alod language are there any left that still speek or were they islamicised before we start another flamefest and before you start quoting argic all over again or was it somebody else please think i know it is a hard thing to do for somebody not equipped but try nevertheless if turks in greece were so badly mistreated how come they elected two m not one but two representatives in the greek government how come they have free absolutely free hospitalization and education do the turks in turkey have so much if they do then you have every right to shout untill then you can also move to greece and enjoy those privileges but i forget for you do study in a foreign university some poor shod is tiling the earth with his own sweat btw is aziz nessin still writing poetry i d like to read some of his new stuff also who was the guy that wrote on the mountains of tayros please respond kindly to the last two questions i am interested in finding more books from these two people yeian kai eytyxeian the opinions expressed above are nobody else s but angelos karageorgiou mine mine miiinne miiinneeee aaaarrgghhhh live long prosper no carrier any and all mail sent to me can and will be used in any manner whatsoever i may repost or publicise parts of messages or whole messages if you disagree please exercise your freedom of speech and don t send me anything
talk.politics.mideast	re was go hezbollah in article bce news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes in article apr yuma acns colostate edu bh lance colostate edu writes it is not a terrorist camp as you and the israelis like to view the villages they are small communities with kids playing soccer in the streets women preparing lunch men playing cards etc some young men usually aged between to years are members of the lebanese resistance even the inhabitants of the village do not know who these are they are secretive about it but most people often suspect who they are and what they are up to these young men are supported financially by iran most of the time they sneak arms and ammunitions into the occupied zone where they set up booby traps for israeli patrols every time an israeli soldier is killed or injured by these traps israel retalliates by indiscriminately bombing villages of their own choosing often killing only innocent civilians this a tried and true method utilized by guerilla and terrorists groups to conduct operations in the midst of the local populace thus forcing the opposing state to possible harm innocent civilians in their search or in order to avoid the deaths of civilians abandon the search certainly the people who use the population for cover are also to blaim for dragging the innocent civilians into harm s way are you suggesting that when guerillas use the population for cover israel should totally back down so the easiest way to get away with attacking another is to use an innocent as a shield and hope that the other respects innocent lives tell me tim what are these guerillas doing wrong assuming that they are using civilians for cover are they not killing soldiers in their country if the buffer zone is to prevent attacks on israel is it not working why is it further neccessary for israeli guns to pound lebanese villages why not just kill those who try to infiltrate the buffer zone you see there is more to the shelling of the villages it is called retaliation getting back getting even it doesn t make sense to shell the villages the least it shows is a reckless disregard by the israeli government for the lives of civilians if israel insists that the so called security zone is necessary for the protection of northern israel than it will have to pay the price of its occupation with the blood of its soldiers if israel is interested in peace than it should withdraw from our land what so the whole bit about attacks on israel from neighboring arab states can start all over again while i also hope for this to happen it will only occur when arab states show that they are prepared to take on the responsibility and the duty to stop guerilla attacks on israel from their soil they have to prove it or provide some guaratees there is no way israel is going to accept their word not with their past attitude of tolerance towards anti israel guerillas in residence if israel is not willing to accept the word of others then imho it has no business wasting others time coming to the peace talks i have written before on this very newsgroup that the only real solution will come as a result of a comprehensive peace settlement whereby israel withdraws to its own borders and peace keeping troops are stationed along the border to insure no one on either side of the border is shelled good lord brad no i am not basil i think basil is a very intelligent person and i respect what he writes basil is a person that i would gladly call a friend he is however not me nor am i lebanese as some seem to suspect this is the only realistic solution it is time for israel to realize that the concept of a buffer zone aimed at protecting its northern cities has failed in fact it has caused much more israeli deaths than the occasional shelling of northern israel would have resulted in perhaps you are aware that to most communities of people there is the feeling that it is better that many of us die fighting against those who attack us than for few to die while we silently accept our fate if however you call on israel to see the sense of suffering fewer casualties i suggest you apply the same to palestinian arab and islamic groups tim you are ignoring the fact that the palestinians in lebanon have been disarmed hezbollah remains the only independent militia hezbollah does not attack israel except at a few times such as when the idf burned up sheikh mosavi his wife and young son of course if israel would withdraw from lebanon and stop assassinating people and shelling villages they wouldn t make the lebanese so mad as to do that furthermore with hezbollah subsequently disarmed it would not be possible and now the lebanese government has proven that it is capable of controlling and disarming all militias as they did in all other parts of lebanon basil it has not without the support and active involvement of syria lebanon would not have been able to accomplish all that has occurred once syria leaves who is to say that lebanon will be able to retain control if syria stays thay may be even more dangerous for israel tim when is the last time that you recall any trouble on the syrian border not lately eh israel knows very well that the syrians are able to restrain all who would use territory under their control to attack israel while lebanon would be better off with syria and israel out of its borders the presence of syrian troops in lebanon has meant a sharp decrease in attacks on israeli territory not on israeli troops in lebanon however please note the distinction in the past two years tim your view of this entire matter is far too serenely one sided and selectively naive i disagree basil has always seemed to me to be a cool headed person slow to anger certainly more so than i what is most important is that he is an actual witness to things from the other end of the israeli guns if only the israeli government would remember what it was like when the roles were reversed perhaps they would moderate their retaliation brad hernlem hernlem chess ncsu edu
talk.politics.mideast	re turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece armenia azeris in article apr news uiowa edu mau herky cs uiowa edu mau napoleon writes from article apr iastate edu by tankut iastate edu sabri t atan well panos mr tamamidis the way you put it it is only the turks who bear the responsibility of the things happening today that is hard to believe for somebody trying to be objective when it comes to conflicts like our countries having you cannot blame one side only there always are bad guys on both sides what were you doing on anatolia after the ww anyway do you think it was your right to be there there were a couple millions of greeks living in asia minor until someone had to protect them if not us who i am not saying that conflicts started with that it is only not one side being the aggressive and the ither always suffering it is sad that we both still are not trying to compromise i remember the action of the turkish government by removing the visa requirement for greeks to come to turkey i thought it was a positive attempt to make the relations better compromise on what the invasion of cyprus the involment of turkey in greek politics the refusal of turkey to accept miles of territorial waters as stated by international law the properties of the greeks of konstantinople the ownership of the islands in the greek lake sorry aegean there are some things on which there can not be a compromise the greeks i mentioned who wouldn t talk to me are educated people they have never met me but they know i am bad person because i am from turkey politics is not my business and it is not the business of most of the turks when it comes to individuals why the hatred any person who supports the policies of the turkish goverment directly or indirecly is a bad person it is not your nationality that makes you bad it is your support of the actions of your goverment that make you bad people do not hate you because of who you are but because of what you are you are a supporter of the policies of the turkish goverment and as a such you must pay the price so that makes me think that there is some kind of brainwashing going on in greece after all why would an educated person treat every person from a nation the same way can you tell me about your history books and things you learn about greek turkish encounters during your schooling take it easy tankut atan tankut iastate edu achtung baby you do not need brainwashing to turn people against the turks just talk to greeks arabs slavs kurds and all other people who had the luck to be under turkish occupation they will talk to you about murders rapes distruction you do not learn about turks from history books you learn about them from people who experienced first hand turkish friendliness napoleon well napoleon it is your kind of people who are preventing peace on the world first of all you didn t answer the question i asked at the end of my posting and then you told me some bullshit throughout your posting which had no positive point about the issue filled with hatred and filled with emotions why am i doing this forget it i don t think you are worth it to discuss the issue tankut atan tankut iastate edu achtung baby
talk.politics.mideast	re clintons views on jerusalem it seems that president clinton can recognize jerusalem as israels capitol while still keeping his diplomatic rear door open by stating that the parties concerned should decide the city s final status even as i endorse clintons vie w of course it is definitely a matter to be decided upon by israel and other participating neighboring contries i see no real conflict in stating both views nor expect any better from politicians david shalhevet dshal vmd cso uiuc edu university of illinois dept anim sci pabl w gregory dr urbana il
talk.politics.mideast	re was go hezbollah in article bradski apr retina bu edu bradski retina bu edu gary bradski writes on apr gmt amehdi src honeywell com hossien amehdi said i was merley pointing out that the other side is also suffering like i said i m not an arab but if i was say a lebanese you bet i would defende my homeland against any invader by any means the syrians iranian agents or just israeli invaders gary bradski i net bradski park bu edu reverberate cognitive and neural systems boston university v v cummington st boston ma y i don t even agree with some of my opinions or die i did say any invader didn t i what do you want from me perhaps a neural net design with all countries involved in lebanon as its nodes you are in cognitive and neural systems if that s the case i would put different weights for each country in my net
talk.politics.mideast	re basil opinions re water on the brain in article qmdtlinnkrc early bird think com shaig think com shai guday writes in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes in article apr nysernet org astein nysernet org alan stein writes i guess hasan finally revealed the source of his claim that israel diverted water from lebanon his imagination alan h stein astein israel nysernet org mr water head i never said that israel diverted lebanese rivers in fact i said that israel went into southern lebanon to make sure that no water is being used on the lebanese side so that all water would run into jordan river where there israel will use it head of course posting some hard evidence or facts is much more difficult you have not bothered to substantiate this in any way basil do you know of any evidence that would support this i can just imagine a news report from ancient times if hasan had been writing it newsflash cairo ap ancient press israel today denied egypt acces to the red sea in a typical display of israelite agressiveness the leader of the israelite slave revolt former prince moses parted the red sea the action is estimated to have caused irreparable damage to the environment egyptian authorities have said that thousands of fisherman have been denied their livelihood by the parted waters pharaoh s brave charioteers were successful in their glorious attempt to cause the waters of the red sea to return to their normal state unfortunately they suffered heavy casualties while doing so hehehe btw does the litani river not flow west and not south i think that its waters stay entirely within lebanese territory and so what hasan says about the jordan river makes no sense in any case the hasbani river on the other hand flows into the jordan if i am not mistaken brad hernlem hernlem chess ncsu edu
talk.politics.mideast	re news you will miss apr sorry arf you dog that news was suppressed because the israeli national volleyball team repeatedly spiked it let this be a lesson to others not to invoke the wrath of sports nuts brits lead the way in this regard with casualties in the last years anyway yigal would never sue his life is presumably so pristine that its most intimate details could be revealed without harm to anyone might even be good instruction for some people i can think of me i would sue i hate the way sports dominates the media anyway the last adl agents watching me die of boredom before filing their reports i ve damaged their atlanta operation something fierce
talk.politics.mideast	re clintons views on jerusalem in article bb abd dshal vmd cso uiuc edu dshal vmd cso uiuc edu writes it seems that president clinton can recognize jerusalem as israels capitol while still keeping his diplomatic rear door open by stating that the parties concerned should decide the city s final status even as i endorse clintons vie w of course it is definitely a matter to be decided upon by israel and other participating neighboring contries i see no real conflict in stating both views nor expect any better from politicians david shalhevet dshal vmd cso uiuc edu university of illinois dept anim sci pabl w gregory dr urbana il i was trying to avoid a discussion of the whether clintons views should be endorsed or not all i was trying to find out was whether the newspaper article was correct in making these statements about the president by obtaining some information about when and where he made these statements thank you ben
talk.politics.mideast	zionism is racism in re syria s expansion the author writes that the un thought zionism was racism and that they were wrong they were correct the first time zionism is racism and thankfully the mcgill daily the student newspaper at mcgill was proud enough to print an article saying so if you want a copy send me mail steve
talk.politics.mideast	re turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece armenia azeris in article apr news uiowa edu mau herky cs uiowa edu mau napoleon writes instabul was called konstantinoupolis from ad until about the s that s about years there many people alive today who were born in a city called konstantinoupolis i know it doesn t make sense but since when is napoleon about sense anyway further striking bigoted and racist attitude of certain greeks still exists in our day most greeks insist even today that the year old capital of the ottoman empire should be called not by its rightful name of istanbul but by its half a millennium old moniker cons whatever everyone knows that new york city was once called new amsterdam but dutch people do not persist on calling it that today the name of stalingrad too is long gone replaced by volgagrad china s peking traded its name for beiging long ago ciudad trujillo of the dominican republic is now santa domingo zimbabve s old colonial capital salisburry became harrare these changes have all been accepted officially by everyone in the world but greeks are still determined on calling the turkish istanbul by the name of cons how can one explain this total intransigence what makes greeks so different from other mortals year old questionable democracy why don t they seem to reconcile with the fact for instance that istanbul changed hands years ago in ad and that this predates the discovery of the new world by years the declaration of u s independence in will come years later shouldn t then half a millennium be considered enough time for cons to be called a turkish city where is the logic in the greek reasoning if there is any how long can one sit on the laurels of an ancient civilization ancient greece does not exist any more than any other civilizations that existed on the soil of anatolia these undereducated wieneramus live with an illusion it is the same mentality which allows them to rationalize that cyprus is a greek island no history book shows that it ever was it belonged to the ottoman turks lock stock and barrel for a period of well over years in fact prior to the turks acquisition of it following bloody naval battles with the venetians in ad the island of cyprus belonged invariably to several nations the assyrians the sumerians the phoenicians the egyptians the ottoman turks of course in that order owned it as their territory but it has never been the possession of the government of greece not even for one day in the history of the world moreover cyprus is located miles from the greek mainland but only miles from turkiye s southern coastline saddam hussein claims that kuwait was once iraqi territory and the greek cypriot government and the terrorist greek governments think that cyprus also was once part of the greek hegemony those arromdians involved in this grandiose hallucination should wake up from their sweet daydreams and confront reality again wishful thinking is unproductive only facts count as for selanik those jews who survived these assaults in southeastern europe fled particularly to salonica whose jewish population increased substantially as a result from in to in more than half the total population though even there increased persecution by local greeks led many jews to flee elsewhere in the ottoman empire particularly to the great port of izmir despite all the pressure from ottomans and foreign jews alike the ritual murders and other assaults by christians on jews went on and on greek efforts to decimate the jewish population of salonica culminated in and following greek conquest of salonica during the first balkan war when many of its jews were either killed or terrorized into leaving though greece was obligated by the post world war i treaties to allow jews and other minorities to use their own languages in education and to practice their religions without hindrance a law was issued in which forbad all inhabitants from working on sunday stimulating a new jewish exodus as it was intended to do between and there was a series of anti semitic riots in salonica with the cambel quarter where most of the remaining jews lived being burned to the ground this was followed by regulations requiring the use of greek and prohibiting hebrew and judea spanish in the jewish schools a start was made also on expropriating the land of the principal jewish cemetery in salonica for use by the new university in order to derive the jews out by killing and driving out large numbers of jews the greeks left a substantial greek majority in the city for the first time and starting salonica jewry on the way to its final decimation by the nazis during the occupation of greece starting in salonica and izmir of course were not the only places of refuge for jewish refugees entering the empire during its last century of existence istanbul edirne and other parts of rumelia and anatolia received thousands more nor were jews the only refugees received and helped by the government of the sultan thousands of muslims accompanied them in flight from similar persecutions wherever balkan christian states gained independence or expanded the russian conquest of the crimea and the caucasus starting in the late eighteenth century and particularly during and after the crimean war combined with the same independence movements in southeastern europe that had caused so much suffering and flight among its jews caused thousands of helpless ill and poverty stricken muslim refugees to accompany them into the ever shrinking boundaries of the ottoman empire with the istanbul government struggling mightly but vainly to house and feed them as best it could from to as many as crimean tatars circassians and other muslims from north and east of the black sea had entered anatolia alone as many as more came during the next twenty years while refugees entered in as a result of the ottoman wars with russia and the balkan states with an equal number gaining refuge in the european portions of the empire robert mantran la structure sociale de la communaute juive de salonqiue a la fin du dix neuvieme siecle rh no nehama vii joseph nehama salonica to aiu paris no may aiu archives i c and no january aiu archives i c describing daily battles between jewish and greek children in the streets of salonica benghiat director of ecole moise allatini salonica to aiu paris no december aiu archives i c describing greek attacks on jews boycotts of jewish shops and manufacturers and greek press campaigns leading to blood libel attacks cohen ecole secondaire moise allatini salonica to aiu paris no december aiu archives i c describes a week of terror that followed the greek army occupation of salonica in with the soldiers pillaging the jewish quarters and destroying jewish synagogues accompanied by what he described as an explosion of hatred by local greek population against local jews and muslims mizrahi president of the aiu at salonica reported to the aiu paris no july aiu archives i c that it was not only the irregulars comitadjis that massacred pillaged and burned the army soldiers the chief of police and the high civil officials also took an active part in the horrors moise tovi salonica to aiu paris no august aiu archives i c describes the greek pillage of the jewish quarter during the night of august aiu alliance israelite universelle paris serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	to be exact million muslims were exterminated by the armenians in article lt p inn ql appserv eng sun com linden positive eng sun com peter van der linden writes so did the turks kill the armenians so did the jews kill the germans you even make armenians laugh an appropriate analogy with the jewish holocaust might be the systematic extermination of the entire muslim population of the independent republic of armenia which consisted of at least percent of the population of that republic the memoirs of an armenian army officer who participated in and eye witnessed these atrocities was published in the u s in with the title men are like that other references abound rachel a bortnick the jewish times june or was it the armenians who massacred the turks yes to be exact armenians slaughtered million muslim people between and source mccarthy j muslims and minorities the population of ottoman anatolia and the end of the empire new york university press new york pp source hovannisian richard g armenia on the road to independence university of california press berkeley and los angeles p source hovannisian richard g armenia on the road to independence university of california press berkeley and los angeles p the addition of the kars and batum oblasts to the empire increased the area of transcaucasia to over square miles the estimated population of the entire region in was of whom percent were armenian percent georgian and percent moslem of the latter group were tatars paradoxically barely one third of transcaucasia s armenians lived in the erevan guberniia where the christians constituted a majority in only three of the seven uezds erevan uezd the administrative center of the province had only armenians as compared to moslems by the time of the russian census of however the armenians had established a scant majority percent in the guberniia it had risen by to percent or of the inhabitants this impressive change in the province s ethnic character notwithstanding there was on the eve of the creation of the armenian republic a solid block of tartars who continued to dominate the southern districts from the outskirts of ereven to the border of persia see also map historic armenia and map administrative subdivisions of transcaucasia in percent turk we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the tartars and then proceeded in the work of extermination our troops surrounded village after village little resistance was offered our artillery knocked the huts into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable and inhabitants fled from them into fields bullets and bayonets completed the work some of the tartars escaped of course they found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border into turkey the rest were killed and so it is that the whole length of the borderland of russian armenia from nakhitchevan to akhalkalaki from the hot plains of ararat to the cold mountain plateau of the north were dotted with mute mournful ruins of tartar villages they are quiet now those villages except for howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the scattered bones of the dead ohanus appressian men are like that p some of the references from eminent authors in the field of middle eastern history and eyewitnesses of the armenian genocide of million muslims the armenian revolutionary movement by louise nalbandian university of california press berkeley los angeles diplomacy of imperialism by william i lenger professor of history harward university boston alfred a knopt new york turkey in europe by sir charles elliot edward arnold london the chatnam house version and other middle eastern studies by elie kedouri praeger publishers new york washington the rising crescent by ernest jackh farrar reinhart inc new york toronto spiritual and political evolutions in islam by felix valyi mogan paul trench truebner co london the struggle for power in moslem asia by e alexander powell the century co new york london struggle for transcaucasia by feruz kazemzadeh yale university press new haven conn history of the ottoman empire and modern turkey volumes by stanford j shaw cambridge university press cambridge new york melbourne the western question in greece and turkey by arnold j toynbee constable co ltd london bombay sydney the caliph s last heritage by sir mark sykes macmillan co london men are like that by leonard a hartill bobbs co indianapolis adventures in the near east by a rawlinson dodd meade co world alive a personal story by robert dunn crown publishers inc new york from sardarapat to serves and lousanne by avetis aharonian the armenian review magazine volume fall through spring armenia on the road to independence by richard g hovanessian university of california press berkeley california the rebirth of turkey by clair price thomas seltzer new york caucasian battlefields by w b allen paul muratoff cambridge partition of turkey by harry n howard h fertig new york the king crane commission by harry n howard beirut united states policy and partition of turkey by laurence evans john hopkins university press baltimore british documents related to turkish war of independence by gothard jaeschke neside kerem demir bir sehid anasina tarihin soyledikleri turkiye nin ermeni meselesi hulbe basim ve yayin t a s ankara ingilizce birinci baski the armenian question in turkey veysel eroglu ermeni mezalimi sebil yayinevi istanbul a alper gazigiray osmanlilardan gunumuze kadar vesikalarla ermeni teroru nun kaynaklari gozen kitabevi istanbul dr kirzioglu m fahrettin kars ili ve cevresinde ermeni mezalimi kardes matbaasi ankara t c basbakanlik osmanli arsivi babiali istanbul a yildiz esas evraki b yildiz perakende c irade defterleri d cemaat i gayr i muslime defterleri e meclisi vukela mazbatalari f dahiliye nezareti kalem i mahsus dosyalari g dahiliye nezareti sifre defterleri h babiali evrak odasi siyasi kartonlar i babiali evrak odasi muhimme kartonlari t c disisleri bakanligi hazine i evrak defterdarlik a harb i umumi b muteferrik kartonlar british archives a parliamentary papers hansard commons lords b foreign office confidential print various collections c foreign office turkey correspondence annual reports d foreign office e foreign office political intelligence general correspondence f foreign office ryan papers g foreign office curzon papers h foreign office the eastern conference lausanne files india office records and library blackfriars road london a l political and security five boxes turkey treaty of peace b l p s near east turkey and greece lausanne conference c l p s d l p s french archives archives du ministere des affaires entrangeres quai d orsay paris a documents diplomatiques affaires armeniens collections b guerre turquie legion d orient c levant armenie official publications published documents diplomatic correspondence agreements minutes and others a turkey the ottoman empire and the republic of turkey akarli e ed belgelerle tanzimat istanbul gn kur atase askeri tarih belgeleri dergisi v xxxi dec askeri tarih belgeleri dergisi v xxxii dec hocaoglu m ed ittihad i anasir i osmaniye heyeti nizamnamesi istanbul meray s l trans ed lozan baris konferansi tutanaklar belgeler ankara vols meray s l o olcay ed osmanli imparatorlugu nun cokus belgeleri mondros birakismasi sevr andlasmasi ilgili belgeler ankara osmanli devleti dahiliye nezareti aspirations et agissements revolutionnaires des comites armeniens avant et apres la proclamation de la constitution ottomane istanbul ermeni komitelerinin amal ve hareket i ihtilaliyesi ilan i mesrutiyetten evvel ve sonra istanbul idare i umumiye ve vilayet kanunu istanbul muharrerat i umumiye mecmuasi v i istanbul muharrerat i umumiye mecmuasi v ii istanbul muharrerat i umumiye mecmuasi v iii istanbul muharrerat i umumiye mecmuasi v iv istanbul osmanli devleti hariciye nezareti imtiyazat i ecnebiyye nin lagvindan dolayi memurine teblig olunacak talimatname istanbul osmanli devleti harbiye nezareti islam ahalinin ducar olduklari mezalim hakkinda vesaike mustenid malumat istanbul iv ordu aliye divan i harbi orfisinde tedkik olunan mesele yi siyasiye hakkinda izahat istanbul turkozu h k ed osmanli ve sovyet belgeleriyle ermeni mezalimi ankara turkiye buyuk millet meclisi gizli celse zabitlari ankara vols russia adamof e e ed sovyet devlet arsivi belgeleriyle anadolu nun taksimi plani tran h rahmi ed h mutlucag istanbul altinay a r iki komite iki kital istanbul kafkas yollarinda hatiralar ve tahassusler istanbul turkiye de katolik propagandasi turk tarihi encumeni mecmuasi v xiv sept asaf muammer harb ve mesulleri istanbul akboy c birinci dunya harbinde turk harbi v i osmanli imparatorlugu nun siyasi ve askeri hazirliklari ve harbe girisi gn kur ankara akgun s general harbord un anadolu gezisi ve ermeni meselesi ne dair raporu kurtulus savasi baslangicinda istanbul akin i turk devrim tarihi istanbul aksin s jon turkler ve ittihad ve terakki istanbul basar z ed ermenilerden gorduklerimiz ankara ermeniler hakkinda makaleler derlemeler ankara belen f birinci dunya harbinde turk harbi ankara deliorman a turklere karsi ermeni komitecileri istanbul ege n n ed prens sabahaddin hayati ve ilmi mudafaalari istanbul ercikan a ermenilerin bizans ve osmanli imparatorluklarindaki rolleri ankara gurun k ermeni sorunu yahut bir sorun nasil yaratilir turk tarihinde ermeniler sempozyumu izmir hocaoglu m arsiv vesikalariyla tarihte ermeni mezalimi ve ermeniler istanbul karal e s osmanli tarihi v v th ed v vi nd ed v vii nd ed v viii nd ed ankara kurat y t osmanli imparatorlugu nun paylasilmasi ankara orel s s yuca ermenilerce talat pasa ya atfedilen telgraflarin icyuzu ankara also in english translation ahmad f the young turks the committee of union and progress in turkish politics oxford serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	now the genocide of the azeri turks of x soviet armenia and karabag in article apr kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes at last i hope that the u s insists that turkey stay out of the karabakh crisis so that the repeat of the cyprus invasion will never occur again do you have a terminal cold karabag is turkish and will remain turkish here we are almost at the end of the th century and a whole community the azeri turks of x soviet armenia and karabag is facing forced assimilation torture and murder on one hand and forced exodus expulsion and genocide on the other all because of their ethnic and religious background and one should ask herself is the world community really so powerless where are all those human rights advocates where are all the decent people are we going to let this human tragedy go on and do nothing about it the number of azeris murdered by the terrorist armenian army and its savage gangs is increasing on the one hand they wish to distort the truth and on the other they beg mercy from turkiye the age melbourne by helen womack agdam azerbaijan thursday the exact number of victims is still unclear but there can be little doubt that azeri civilians were massacred by armenian fighters in the snowy mountains of nagorno karabakh last week refugees from the enclave town of khojaly sheltering in the azeri border town of agdam give largely consistent accounts of how their enemies attacked their homes on the night of february chased those who fled and shot them in the surrounding forests yesterday i saw freshly dug graves in one cemetery in addition to four mutilated corpses we were shown in the mosque when we arrived in agdam late on tuesday i also saw women and children with bullet wounds in a makeshift hospital in a string of railway carriages khojaly an azeri settlement in the enclave mostly populated by armenians had a population of about mr rashid mamedov commander of police in agdam said only about escaped to his town so where are the rest some might have taken prisoner he said or fled many bodies were still lying in the mountains because the azeris were short of helicopters to retrieve them he believed more than had perished some of cold in temperatures as low as minus degrees one refugee rami nasiru described how khojaly residents at first thought the attack was no more than the routine shooting to which they had become accustomed in four years of conflict but when they saw the armenians with a convoy of armored personnel carriers they realised they could not hope to defend themselves with machineguns and grenades and fled into the forests in the small hours the massacre started mr nasiru who believes his wife and two children were taken prisoner repeated what many other refugees have said that troops of the former soviet army helped the armenians to attack khojaly it is not my opinion i saw it with my own eyes serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	armenians will not get away with the genocide of azeri people in article apr kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes da armenia is involved in fighting with azarbaijan it is armenian da soldiers from mainland armenia that are shelling towns in azarbaijan well this is your opinion are you related to arromdian of asala sdpa arf terrorism and revisionism triangle if you feel that you can simply act as a fascist armenian governmental crony in this forum you will be sadly mistaken and duly embarrassed this is not a lecture to another historical revisionist and a genocide apologist but a fact this time fascist x soviet armenian government will not get away with the genocide of azeri men women and children not a chance the sunday times march morgues fill as azeris head for all out war thomas goltz the first to report the massacre by armenian soldiers in the worst violence since the breakup of the soviet union reports from agdam khojaly used to be a barren town with empty shops and treeless dirt roads yet it was still home to thousands of people who in happier times tended fields and flocks of geese last week it was wiped off the map as sickening reports trickled in to the azerbaijani border town of agdam and the bodies piled up in the morgues there was little doubt that khojaly and the stark foothills and gullies around it had been the site of the most terrible massacre since the soviet union broke apart i was the last westerner to visit khojaly that was in january and people were predicting their fate with grim resignation zumrut ezoya a mother of four on board the helicopter that ferried us into the town called her community sitting ducks ready to get shot she and her family were among the victims of the massacre on february the armenians have taken all the outlying villages one by one and the government does nothing balakisi sakikov a father of five said next they will drive us out or kill us all said dilbar his wife the couple their three sons and three daughters were killed in the assault as were many other people i had spoken to it was close to the armenian lines we knew we would have to cross there was a road and the first units of the column ran across then all hell broke loose bullets were raining down from all sides we had just entered their trap the azeri defenders picked off one by one survivors say that armenian forces then began a pitiless slaughter firing at anything moved in the gullies a video taken by an azeri cameraman wailing and crying as he filmed body after body showed a grizzly trail of death leading towards higher forested ground where the villagers had sought refuge from the armenians the armenians just shot and shot and shot said omar veyselov lying in hospital in agdam with sharapnel wounds i saw my wife and daughter fall right by me people wandered through the hospital corridors looking for news of the loved ones some vented their fury on foreigners where is my daughter where is my son wailed a mother raped butchered lost azerbaijan has said as many as refugees were killed as they tried to flee the armenians have denied this saying the civilians were caught in crossfire source the times march corpses litter hills in karabakh anatol lieven comes under fire while flying with azerbaijani forces to investigate the alleged mass killings of refugees by armenian troops as we swooped low over the snow covered hills of nagorno karabagh we saw the scattered corpses apparently the refugees had been shot down as they ran an azerbaijani film of the places we flew over shown to journalists afterwards showed dozens of corpses lying in various parts of the hills the azerbaijanis claim that as many as have died in a mass killing of azerbaijanis fleeing from the town of khodjaly seized by armenians last week a further are believed to be wounded frozen to death or missing seven of us squatted in the cabin of an azerbaijani m attack helicopter as we flew to investigate the claims of the mass killings suddenly there was a thump against the underside of the aircraft a red flash of tracer ripped past the starboard wing and the helicopter rocked sharply we swung round and there was a deafening burst of fire from the cannon under our wing as the helicopter crew returned fire we had been fired on from an armenian anti aircraft post we swung round again tipped to starboard and appeared to dive straight down into a valley the brown earth swooped around our heads the helicopter swung round again and followed the contours of the ground our cannon fired repeated blasts later it emerged that a civilian helicopter that we had been escorting had landed successfully at nakhichevanik in the east of the disputed enclave of nagorno karabakh to pick up some of the dead we had in fact been attacked both by ground fire and by an armenian helicopter i had seen the armenian helicopter intermittently through the window its cannons firing but had thought mistakenly that it was on our side our group of western journalists had embarked on a search and rescue flight that had become a combat mission our flight consisted of the civilian passenger helicopter and two m soviet attack helicopters in the azerbaijani service nicknamed flying crocodiles for their armour our party was in the second crocodile the civilian helicopter s job was to land in the mountains and pick up bodies at sites of the mass killings the attack helicopters were there to give covering fire if necessary the operation showed a striking sign of the disintegration of the soviet armed forces because our pilot was a russian officer an azerbaijani official told us that there were now five former soviet military helicopters and their pilots fighting for azerbaijan they have signed contracts to fly for us he said the helicopter we engaged in combat was most probably flown by a brother officer of our russian pilot but fighting for the armenians we had taken off just before pm on saturday from agdam airfield an heated for the armenian controlled mountains of karabakh a sheer white wall in the distance the civilian helicopter picked up four corpses and it was during this and a previous mission that an azerbaijani cameraman filmed the several the several dozen bodies on the hillsides we then took off again in a hurry and speed back towards azerbaijani lines azerbaijani gunners on the last hill before the plain and safety gazed up at us as we passed back at the airfield in agdam we took a look the bodies the civilian helicopter had picked up two old men a small girl were covered with blood their limbs contorted by the cold and rigor mortis they had been shot what did our russian pilot think of the tragedy our close shave and the war in nagorno karabakh he gave us cheerful grin politely declined to answer ques tions and marched off to his dinner serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	on the eve of th anniversary commemoration of the turkish holocaust in article apr kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes oy henrik oy your ignorance manifests itself in an awkward form of intransigence i m not oy going to spend time to review with you the recent history of cyprus good go back to your references and read it over and over i wish the fascist x soviet armenian government would do that well if you prefer to imagine that the american european jewish and armenian scholars were trying to mislead arromdians be my guest source stanford j shaw on armenian collaboration with invading russian armies in history of the ottoman empire and modern turkey volume ii reform revolution republic the rise of modern turkey london cambridge university press pp in april dashnaks from russian armenia organized a revolt in the city of van whose armenians comprised percent of the population closest to an armenian majority of any city in the empire leaving erivan on april armenian volunteers reached van on may and organized and carried out a general slaughter of the local muslim population during the next two days while the small ottoman garrison had to retreat to the southern side of the lake source world alive a personal story by robert dunn crown publishers inc new york memoirs of an american officer who witnessed the armenian genocide of million muslim people p seventh paragraph and p first paragraph the most are inside houses come you and look no dammit my stomach isn t one is a turkish officer in uniform him you must see we were under those trees by the mosque in an open space i don t believe you i said but followed to a nail studded door the man pushed it ajar then spurred away leaving me to check on the corpse i thought i should this charge was so constant so gritted my teeth and went inside the place was cool but reeked of sodden ashes and was dark at first for its stone walls had only window slits rags strewed the mud floor around an iron tripod over embers that vented their smoke through roof beams black with soot all looked bare and empty but in an inner room flies buzzed as the door swung shut behind me i saw they came from a man s body lying face up naked but for its grimy turban he was about fifty years old by what was left of his face a rifle butt had bashed an eye the one left slanted as with tartars rather than with turks any uniform once on him was gone so i d no proof which he was and quickly went out gagging at the mess of his slashed genitals p first paragraph how many people lived there oh about eight hundred he yawned did you see any turk officers no sir i was in at dawn all were tartar civilians in mufti the lieutenant dozed off then i but in the small hours a voice woke me dro s he stood in the starlight bawling out an officer anyone keelhauled so long and furiously i d never heard then abruptly dro broke into laughter quick and simple as child s both were a cover for his sense of guilt i thought or hoped for somehow despite my boast of irreligion christian massacring infidels was more horrible than the reverse would have been from daybreak on armenian villagers poured in from miles around the women plundered happily chattering like ravens as they picked over the carcass of djul they hauled out every hovel s chattels the last scrap of food or cloth and staggered away packing pots saddlebags looms even spinning wheels thank you for a lot dro i said to him back in camp but now i must leave we shook hands the captain said a bientot mon camarade and for hours the old molokan scout and i plodded north across parching plains like lot s wife i looked back once to see smoke bathing all doubtless in a sack of other moslem villages up to the line of snow that was iran p at morning tea dro and his officers spread out a map of this whole high region called the karabakh deep in tactics they spoke russian but i got their contempt for allied neutral zones and their distrust of promises made by tribal chiefs a campaign shaped more raids on moslem villages p it will be three hours to take dro told me we d close in on three sides the men on foot will not shoot but use only the bayonets merrimanov said jabbing a rifle in dumbshow that is for morale dro put in we must keep the moslems in terror soldiers or civilians i asked there is no difference said dro all are armed in uniform or not but the women and children will fly with the others as best they may p the ridges circled a wide expanse its floors still hundreds of feet down the fog held solid as cotton flock djul lies under that said dro pointing our men also attack from the other sides then whee ee his whistle lined up all at the rock edge bayonets clicked upon carbines over plunged archo his black haunches rippling then followed the staff the horde nose to tail bellies taking the spur armenia in action seemed more like a pageant than war even though i heard our utica brass roar as i watched from the height it took ages for djul to show clear a tsing of machine gun fire took over from the thumping batteries cattle lowed dogs barked invisible while i ate a hunk of cheese and drank from a snow puddle mist at last folded upward as men shouted at first heard faintly the came a shrill wailing now among the cloud streaks rose darker wisps smoke red glimmered about house walls of stone or wattle into dry weeds on roofs a mosque stood in clump of trees thick and green through crooked alleys on fire horsemen were galloping after figures both mounted and on foot tartarski shouted the gunner by me others pantomimed them in escape over the rocks while one twisted a bronze shell nose loaded and yanked breech cord firing again and again shots wasted i thought when by afternoon i looked in vain for fallen branch or body but these shots and the white bursts of shrapnel in the gullies drowned the women s cries at length all shooting petered out i got on my horse and rode down toward djul it burned still but little flame showed now the way was steep and tough through dense scrub finally on flatter ground i came out suddenly through alders on smoldering houses across trampled wheat my brothers in arms were leading off animals several calves and a lamb p fourth paragraph corpses came next the first a pretty child with straight black hair large eyes she looked about twelve years old she lay in some stubble where meal lay scattered from the sack she d been toting the bayonet had gone through her back i judged for blood around was scant between the breasts one clot too small for a bullet wound crusted her homespun dress the next was a boy of ten or less in rawhide jacket and knee pants he lay face down in the path by several huts one arm reached out to the pewter bowl he d carried now upset upon its dough steel had jabbed just below his neck into the spine there were grownups too i saw as i led the sorrel around djul was empty of the living till i looked up to see beside me dro s german speaking colonel he said all tartars who had not escaped were dead p more stories of armenian murdering turks when the czarist troops fled north my hosts told me of their duty here to keep tabs on brigands turkish troop shifts hidden arms spies christian red or tartar coming in from transcaucasus then they spoke of the hell that would break loose if versailles were to put as threatened the six armenian vilayets of turkey under the control of erevan an armenia without armenians turks under christian rule his lips smacked in irony under the droopy red moustache that s bloodshed just smyrna over again on a bigger scale source u s library of congress bristol papers general correspondence container while the dashnaks were in power they did everything in the world to keep the pot boiling by attacking kurds turks and tartars by committing outrages against the moslems by massacring the moslems and robbing and destroying their homes during the last two years the armenians in russian caucasus have shown no ability to govern themselves and especially no ability to govern or handle other races under their power source k gurun the armenian file london nicosia istanbul many muslim villages have been destroyed by the soldiers of armenian troops armed with cannons and machine guns before the eyes of our troops and the people according to documented information muslim villages have been destroyed young muslim women have been taken to kars and gumru hundreds of women and children who were able to flee their villages were beaten and killed in the mountains source w e d allen and paul muratoff caucasian battlefields cambridge university press p as the armenians found support among the reds who regarded the tartars as a counter revolutionary elements the fighting soon became a massacre of the tartar population source general bronsart wrote as follows in an article in the july issue of the newspaper deutsche allgemeine zeitung since all the moslems capable of bearing arms were in the turkish army it was easy to organize a terrible massacre by the armenians against defenseless people because the armenians were not only attacking the sides and rear of the eastern army paralyzed at the front by the russians but were attacking the moslem folk in the region as well source quoted by general hamelin in a letter to the high commissioner february in the official history les armees francaises au levant vol p they armenians burned and destroyed many turkish villages as punitive measures in their advance and practically all turkish villages in their retreat from marash source john dewey the turkish tragedy the new republic volume november pp that they armenians boasted of having raised an army of one hundred and fifty thousand men to fight a civil war and that they burned at least a hundred turkish villages and exterminated their population need i go on serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes in article apr kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes in article apr sol ctr columbia edu deniz mandolin ctr columbia edu deniz akkus writes well this is your opinion of course it is turkish azeris can bark all they want since the above is untrue however i am sure you guys would have never brought up armenia s involvement if karabakhi armenians had had heavy losses and this is your opinion it is not any more valid due to repeated capital letters and words such as untrue never etc read what the new york times that is publishing anti armenian articles nop i have my resources look everyone knows how aggressive turks azeris have been in the past armenians are not gona sit around and watch fire works by azeris taught by turks so armenians are justified in aggression since supposedly turks have been aggressive in the past i don t follow your logic da i don t wish to get into the cyprus discussion turkey had the right to not a chance you can not convince me based on your reasons that your government did the right thing to invade cyprus i have said that i don t wish to get into cyprus discussion and did not give any reasons for turkey s involvement i also am not trying to convince you of anything seeing no reason to waste any time da lastly why is there not a soc culture armenia i vote yes for it da after all it is now free well i am not in the position to agree or disadree with you i am serious let s get soc culture armenia started and have some peace of mind deniz akkus
talk.politics.mideast	re zionism is racism in article apr vm mcgill ca b ha b ha musicb mcgill ca writes in re syria s expansion the author writes that the un thought zionism was racism and that they were wrong they were correct the first time zionism is racism and thankfully the mcgill daily the student newspaper at mcgill was proud enough to print an article saying so if you want a copy send me mail steve i know this paper well and see it for the exercise in selective morality and judgement it is until such time as it recognizes that any religiously based government is racist exclusionary and simply built on a philosophy of separate but equal second class treatment of minorities it will continue to be known for its bias if jewish nationalism is racism so is islam anywhere where people are allotted different rights according to race religion or culture is racist
talk.politics.mideast	jewish committee on the middle east jcome i flipped on my local cable access channel a channel where any community member can broadcast whatever they want for about per half hour and saw a documentary i use this term loosely on the conflict in the west bank it was apparently made with a hand held camcorder the quality was terrible and the camera was really jumpy the documentary sic told the tales of all of the children who died in the war against the jews as martyrs it was a regular sob story one victimized youth was recounting on how all he really wants to do is to get an education and that the big bad jews won t let him go to high school he admittedly spent years in prison age to for murdering a jewish woman but claims that it was for the cause i have seen this kind of garbage before i have a lot of sympathy for the palestinian cause as do many jews but i think that even many arabs would be ashamed to call this a documentary the most suprising part is that the only credits shown at the end was an address for the makers of the film named jewish comm on the middle east anybody heard of them they make peace now look like right wingers gedaliah friedenberg department of mechanical engineering department of metallurgy mechanics and materials science michigan state university
talk.politics.mideast	re zionism is racism in article apr vm mcgill ca b ha b ha musicb mcgill ca writes in re syria s expansion the author writes that the un thought zionism was racism and that they were wrong they were correct the first time zionism is racism and thankfully the mcgill daily the student newspaper at mcgill was proud enough to print an article saying so if you want a copy send me mail if you want info claiming that blacks were brought to earth trillion years ago by aliens from the plante shabazz i can send you literature from the nation of islam farrakhan s group who believe this if you want info claiming that the holocaust never happened i can send you info from ihr institute for historical review david irving s group or just read dan gannon s posts on alt revisionism i just wanted to put steve s post in with the company that it deserves steve gedaliah friedenberg department of mechanical engineering department of metallurgy mechanics and materials science michigan state university
talk.politics.mideast	re ten questions about israel cpr igc apc org center for policy research writes is it true that israeli stocks nuclear weapons if so could you provide any evidence yes israel has nuclear weapons however their use so far has been restricted to killing deer by lsd addicted cherrie soldiers they are locked in the cellar of the garinei afula factory and since the gingi lost the key no one can use them anymore even if the gingi finds the key the chief rabbis have a time lock on the bombs that does not allow them to be activated on the sabbath and during weeks which follow victories of the betar jerusalem soccer team a quick glance at the national league score table will reveal the strategic importance of this fact danny keren
talk.politics.mideast	re ten questions about israel cpr igc apc org center for policy research writes from center for policy research cpr subject ten questions about israel i would be thankful if any of you who live in israel could help to provide accurate answers to the following specific questions these are indeed provocative questions but they are asked time and again by people around me questions omitted elias davidsson iceland email elias ismennt is funny you should mention it but i ve heard these questions time and again also why just the other day a couple neo nazis by ucla were passing out literature like this cheers steve steven berson ucla computer science department steven cs ucla edu los angeles ca
talk.politics.mideast	accounts of anti armenian human right violations in azerbaijan accounts of anti armenian human right violations in azerbaijan prelude to current events in nagorno karabakh on the way the driver says in fact there aren t any armenians left they burned them all beat them all and stabbed them deposition of vanya bagratovich bazian born foreman baku spetsmontazh administration umsmr resident at building apartment block sumgait azerbaijan during the first days of the events the th and the th of february i was away on a business trip on the th i had got my crew done the paper work and left for the zhdanov district that s in azerbaijan near the nagorno karabagh region after the th rumors started to the effect that in karabagh specifically in stepanakert an uprising had taken place they said uprising in azerbaijani but i don t think it was really an uprising just a demonstration after that the unrest started several armenians living in the zhdanov district were injured how were they injured they were beaten even women it was said that they were at the demonstrations but they live here and went from here to karabagh to demonstrate after that i felt uneasy there were some conversations about armenians among the local population the armenians had done this the armenians had done that right there at the site i was attacked a couple of times by kids well true the guys from my crew wouldn t let them come at me with cables and knives after that i felt really bad i didn t know where to go i up and called home and my children tell me there s unrest everywhere be careful well i had a project going on i told the second secretary of the district party committee what had been going on and said i wanted to take my crew off the site they wouldn t allow it they said nothing s going to happen to you we ve entrusted the matter to the police we ve warned everyone in the district nothing will happen to you well in fact they did especially detail us a policeman to look after me he knows all the local people and would protect me if something happened this man didn t leave me alone for five minutes he was at work the whole time and afterward he spent the night with us too i sense some disquiet and call home my wife also tells me the situation is very tense be careful we finished the job at the site and i left for sumgait first thing on the morning of the th when we left the guys warned me they told me that i shouldn t tell anyone on the way that i was an armenian i took someone else s business travel documents in the name of zardali and hid my own i hid it and my passport in my socks we set out for baku our guys were on the bus they sat behind and i sat up front in baku they had come to me and said that they had to collect all of our travel documents just in case as it turns out they knew what was happening in sumgait i arrive at the bus station and there they tell me that the city of sumgait is closed there is no way to get there that the city is closed off and the buses aren t running buses normally leave baku for sumgait almost every two minutes and suddenly no buses well we tried to get there via private drivers one man an azerbaijani said let s go find some other way to get there they found a light transport vehicle and arranged for the driver to take us to sumgait he took us there but the others had said i wouldn t go if you gave me a thousand rubles why because they re burning the city and killing the armenians there isn t an armenian left well i got hold of myself so i could still stand up so we squared it away the four of us got in the car and we set off for sumgait on the way the driver says in fact there aren t any armenians left they burned them all beat them all and stabbed them well i was silent the whole way odd miles i was silent the driver asks me how old are you old man he wants to know if i m being that quiet not saying anything maybe it means i m an armenian how old are you he asks me i say i m i m too but i call you old man i say it depends on god each person s life in this world is different i look much older than my years that s why he called me old man well after that he was silent too we re approaching the city i look and see tanks all around and a cordon before we get to the kavkaz store the driver starts to wave his hand well he was waving his hand we all start waving our hands i m sitting there with them i start waving my hand too i realized that this was a sign that meant there were no armenians with us i look at the city there is a crowd of people walking down the middle of the street you know and there s no traffic well probably i was scared they stopped our car people were standing on the sidewalks they have armature shafts and stones and they stopped us along the way the driver tells us how they know who s an armenian and who s not the armenians usually for example i m an armenian but i speak their language very well well armenians usually pronounce the azeri word for nut or little nut as pundukh but fundukh is actually correct the pronunciations are different anyone who says pundukh even if they re not armenian they immediately take out and start to slash another one says there was a car there with five people inside it he says they started hitting the side of it with an axe and lit it on fire and they didn t let the people out he says they wouldn t let them get out of the car i only saw the car but the driver says that he saw everything well he often drives from baku to sumgait and back when they stop us we all get out of the car i look and there s a short guy his eyes are gleaming he has an armature shaft in one hand and a stone in the other and asks the guys what nationality they are one by one we re azerbaijani they tell him no armenians here he did come up to me when we were pulling our things out and says maybe you re an armenian old man but in azerbaijani i say you should be ashamed of yourself and he left turned and left that was all that happened what was i to do i had to the city was on fire but i had to steal my children out of my own home they stopped us at the entrance to mir street that s where the kavkaz store and three large story buildings are that s the beginning of down town i saw that burned automobile there completely burned only metal remained i couldn t figure out if it was a zhiguli or a zaporozhets later i was told it was a zhiguli and the people in there were completely incinerated nothing remained of them not even any traces that driver had told me about it and i saw the car myself the car was there the skeleton a metallic carcass about to yards from the kavkaz store i see a military transport an armored personnel carrier the hatches are closed and people are throwing armature shafts and pieces of iron at it the crowd is and i hear shots not automatic fire it s true but pistol shots several shots there were azerbaijanis crowded around that personnel carrier someone in the crowd was shooting apparently they either wanted to kill the soldiers or get a machine gun or something at that point there was only one armored personnel carrier and all the tanks were outside the city cordoning off sumgait i walked on i see two azerbaijanis going home from the plant i can tell by their gait that they re not bandits they re just people walking home i joined them so in case something happened in case someone came up to us and asked questions either of us would be in a position to answer you see but i avoided the large groups because i m a local and might be quickly recognized i tried to keep at a distance and walked where there were fewer people well so i walked into microdistrict which is across from our block i can t get into our block but i walked where there were fewer people so as to get around well there i see a tall guy and to people are walking behind him and he s shouting into a megaphone comrades the armenian azerbaijani war has begun the police have megaphones like that so they re talking and walking around the second microdistrict i see that they re coming my way and turn off behind a building i noticed that they walked around the outside buildings and inside the microdistricts there were about or people standing on every corner and at the middles of the buildings and at the edges what they were doing i can t say because i couldn t get up close to them i was afraid but the most important thing was to get away from there to get home and at least find out if my children were alive or not april yerevan reference the sumgait tragedy pogroms against armenians in soviet azerbaijan volume i eyewitness accounts edited by samuel shahmuradian forward by yelena bonner published by aristide d caratzas ny pages david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
talk.politics.mideast	re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes henrik and hilmi writes henrik the armenians in nagarno karabagh are simply defending their henrik rights to keep their homeland and it is the azeris that are henrik invading their homeland he homeland first nagarno karabagh was armenians homeland today he fizuli lacin and several villages in azerbadjan he are their homeland can t you see the he the great armenia dream in this with facist methods like he killing raping and bombing villages the last move was the he blast of a truck with kurdish refugees trying to he escape the from lacin a city that was given to the kurds he by the armenians nagorno karabakh is in azerbaijan not armenia armenians have lived in nagorno karabakh ever since there were armenians armenians used to live in the areas between armenia and nagorno karabakh and this area is being used to invade nagorno karabakh armenians are defending themselves if azeris are dying because of a policy of attacking armenians then something is wrong with this policy attacking who is attacking who even the country you live in usa have condemned armenia for it s attacking and you start to say that the attackers are the azeris armenians have lived in nagorno karabakh ever since there were armenians azeris have lived in nagorno karabakh ever since there were azeris don t come with nonsence there is no reason to attack a people just because a man called gorbatjov and co gave the freedom to the people in this area if i recall correctly it was stalin who caused all this problem with land in the first place not the armenians it s easy for people like you to blame history the were a lot of indians living in usa there is no reason for these indians to attack the american people and say it was the fault of the government of germany and great britain because they made people come to our place armenians lived in harmony with the azeris until gorbatjov and co gave freedom to the people in karabag then the armenians started to kill rape and torture the azeris not only in karabag but also noe in azerbadjan henrik however i hope that the armenians will force a turkish airplane henrik to land for purposes of searching for arms similar to the one henrik that happened last summer turkey searched an american plane henrik carrying humanitarian aid bound to armenia he don t speak about things you don t know u s cargo planes he were heading to armenia when the turkish authorities he announced that they were going to search these cargo he planes of these planes returned to it s base in germany he of these planes were searched in turkey the content of he of the other planes not hard to guess is it it was sure not he humanitarian aid what story are you talking about planes from the u s have been sending aid into armenian for two years i would not like to guess about what were in the planes in your story i would like to find out he search turkish planes you don t know what you are talking about he turkey s government has announced that it s giving weapons he to azerbadjan since armenia started to attack azerbadjan he it self not the karabag province so why search a plane for weapons he since it s content is announced to be weapons it s too bad you would want turkey to start a war with armenia that s what i don t want you couldn t imagine the result of a war so france greece and usa wants to start fighting with azerbadjan they give a lot more weapons to the armenians without saying it that s no secret any more i must say that these armenian government is very shortsighted do they think that they shall move from it s neigbours when the war is over the neighbour around will be there and armenia must live in harmony with these if they don t want a stone age country for that s what s will happen armenia if the wars continues look the president of turkey turgut ozal died and petrosyan the armenian presindent is now in turkey for the funeral is it because he liked him sure not because armenia needs it s neighbours and must live with these but armenia can t stop this war with continued ordertaking from states like france and usa with other words if you love your people you must think twice and i wonder shoot down turkish planes with what ohhh i forgot the armenians can t find food but there are a lot of arms from the mentioned countries hilmi eren stockholm university sweden
talk.politics.mideast	re about this center for policy resea it seems to me that many readers of this conference are interested who is behind the center for polict research i will oblige my name is elias davidsson icelandic citizen born in palestine my mother was thrown from germany because she belonged to the undesirables at that times this group was defined as jews she was forced to go to palestine due to many cynical factors i have meanwhile settled in iceland years ago and met many people who were thrown out from my homeland palestine because of the same reason they belonged to the indesirables these people include my neighbors in jerusalem with the children of whom i played as child their crime theyare not jews my conscience does not accept such injustice period my work for justice is done in the name of my principled opposition to racism and racial discrimination those who protest against such practices in arab countries have my support as long as their protest is based on a principled position but not as a tactic to deflect criticism from israel the struggle against discrimination and racism is universal the center for policy research is a name i gave to those activities undertaken under my guidance in different domains and which command the support of many volunteers in iceland it is however not a formal institution and works with minimal funds professionally i am music teacher and composer i have published several pieces and my piano music is taught widely in europe i would hope that discussion about israel palestine be conducted in a more civilized manner calling names is not helpful elias davidsson iceland
talk.politics.mideast	re nazi eugenic theories circulated by in my postings i have made a proposal for comments and discussion those who don t want to discuss its merits and drawbacks are not forced to do so however i would make anybody who incites others to harm me or harass in a personal manner legally responsible for their deeds i cannot accept and will not accept threats to my personal integrity and i urge anybody who opposes terror to refrain from direct or indriect threats ps my proposal has nothing to do with nazi eugenics it has to do with the search for peace which would enable justice i don t consider that justice is done when non jews who fled or were expelled in are not permitted to return to their homeland this can at best be called pragmatism a nice word for legitimizing the rule of the strong it can never be called justice and peace without justice will never be peace it is my conviction that the situation in which a state through the law attempts to discourage mixed marriages as israel does is not normal such a state resembles more nazi germany and south africa than western democracies such as the united states in which jews are free to marry whom they wish and do so in the thousands my proposal may have drawbacks but it is meant to force anybody to anything just to compensate for a certain time mixed couples for the hardships tehy endure in a society which disapproves of intermarriage when the day will come and israel will become a truly civil and decmoractic society in which the state is not concerned with the religious or ethnic affiliation of its constituency such a fund would not be needed any more i don t mind if jews wish to marry jews and keep their traditions why not but this is not the affairs of a state western democracy clearly separates these domains and i am certain that most american jews enjoy this fact and would not love to live in a state termed christian state and to have their green cards stamped with a mark jew i would ask those who are genuinely interested in an exchange of views and personal experiencces to refrain from emotional infantile outbursts which might leed readers to infer that jews who respect judaism are uncivilized such behaviour is not good for judaism elias
talk.politics.mideast	a moment of silence april th is approaching and armenians around the world are getting ready to remember the massacres of their family members by the turkish government between and at least million armenians perished during that period and it is important to note that those who deny that this event ever took place either supported the policy of to exterminate the armenians or as we have painfully witnessed in azerbaijan would like to see it happen again thank you for taking the time to read this post helgge
talk.politics.mideast	armenian slaughter of defenseless muslim children and pregnant women in article apr kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes bm gimme a break capital letters or not the above is pure nonsense bm it seems to me that short sighted armenians are escalating the hostilities again armenians in karabakh are simply defending themselves what do the winding down of winter puts you in a heavy arromdian mood i ll see if i can get our dear mehmetcik to write you a letter giving you and your criminal handlers at the asala sdpa arf terrorism and revisionism triangle some military pointers like how to shoot armed adult males instead of small muslim children and pregnant women source the times march massacre uncovered by anatol lieven more than sixty bodies including those of women and children have been spotted on hillsides in nagorno karabakh confirming claims that armenian troops massacred azeri refugees hundreds are missing scattered amid the withered grass and bushes along a small valley and across the hillside beyond are the bodies of last wednesday s massacre by armenian forces of azerbaijani refugees from that hill can be seen both the armenian controlled town of askeran and the outskirts of the azerbaijani military headquarters of agdam those who died very nearly made it to the safety of their own lines we landed at this spot by helicopter yesterday afternoon as the last troops of the commonwealth of independent states began pulling out they left unhindered by the warring factions as general boris gromov who oversaw the soviet withdrawal from afghanistan flew to stepanakert to ease their departure a local truce was enforced to allow the azerbaijaines to collect their dead and any refugees still hiding in the hills and forest all the same two attack helicopters circled continuously the nearby armenian positions in all bodies could be counted at the scene at least another have been taken into agdam over the past five days these figures do not include civilians reported killed when the armenians stormed the azerbaijani town of khodjaly on tuesday night the figures also do not include other as yet undiscovered bodies zahid jabarov a survivor of the massacre said he saw up to people shot down at the point we visited and refugees who came by different routes have also told of being shot at repeatedly and of leaving a trail of bodies along their path around the bodies we saw were scattered possessions clothing and personnel documents the bodies themselves have been preserved by the bitter cold which killed others as they hid in the hills and forest after the massacre all are the bodies of ordinary people dressed in the poor ugly clothing of workers of the we saw only one policeman and two apparent national volunteers were wearing uniform all the rest were civilians including eight women and three small children two groups apparently families had fallen together the children cradled in the women s arms several of them including one small girl had terrible head injuries only her face was left survivors have told how they saw armenians shooting them point blank as they lay on the ground serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	traditional and historical armenian barbarism was re watch out in article apr elroy uh edu st elroy uh edu fazia begum rizvi writes seems to me that a lot of good muslims would care about those terms especially those affected by the ideology and actions that such terms decscribe the bosnians suffering from such bigotry comes to mind they get it from people who call them dirty descendants of turks from people who hate their religion and from those who don t think they are really muslims at all since they are white the suffering that they are let us not forget about the genocide of the azeri people in karabag and x soviet armenia by the armenians between and armenians committed unheard of crimes resorted to all conceivable methods of despotism organized massacres poured petrol over babies and burned them raped women and girls in front of their parents who were bound hand and foot took girls from their mothers and fathers and appropriated personal property and real estate and today they put azeris in the most unbearable conditions any other nation had ever known in history aref sadikov sat quietly in the shade of a cafe bar on the caspian sea esplanade of baku and showed a line of stitches in his trousers torn by an armenian bullet as he fled the town of hojali just over three months ago writes hugh pope i m still wearing the same clothes i don t have any others the year old carpenter said beginning his account of the hojali disaster i was wounded in five places but i am lucky to be alive mr sadikov and his wife were short of food without electricity for more than a month and cut off from helicopter flights for days they sensed the armenian noose was tightening around the to people left in the straggling azeri town on the edge of karabakh at about pm a bombardment started such as we had never heard before eight or nine kinds of weapons artillery heavy machine guns the lot mr sadikov said soon neighbours were pouring down the street from the direction of the attack some huddled in shelters but others started fleeing the town down a hill through a stream and through the snow into a forest on the other side to escape the townspeople had to reach the azeri town of agdam about miles away they thought they were going to make it until at about dawn they reached a bottleneck between the two armenian villages of nakhchivanik and saderak none of my group was hurt up to then then we were spotted by a car on the road and the armenian outposts started opening fire mr sadikov said azeri militiamen fighting their way out of hojali rushed forward to force open a corridor for the civilians but their efforts were mostly in vain mr sadikov said only people from his group of made it through including his wife and militiaman son seven of his immediate relations died including his year old elder brother i only had time to reach down and cover his face with his hat he said pulling his own big flat turkish cap over his eyes we have never got any of the bodies back the first groups were lucky to have the benefit of covering fire one hero of the evacuation alif hajief was shot dead as he struggled to change a magazine while covering the third group s crossing mr sadikov said another hero elman memmedov the mayor of hojali said he and several others spent the whole day of february in the bushy hillside surrounded by dead bodies as they tried to keep three armenian armoured personnel carriers at bay as the survivors staggered the last mile into agdam there was little comfort in a town from which most of the population was soon to flee the night after we reached the town there was a big armenian rocket attack some people just kept going mr sadikov said i had to get to the hospital for treatment i was in a bad way they even found a bullet in my sock victims of war an azeri woman mourns her son killed in the hojali massacre in february left nurses struggle in primitive conditions centre to save a wounded man in a makeshift operating theatre set up in a train carriage grief stricken relatives in the town of agdam right weep over the coffin of another of the massacre victims calculating the final death toll has been complicated because muslims bury their dead within hours photographs liu heung ap frederique lengaigne reuter the independent london serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	armenians serving in the wehrmacht and the ss in article amazon cs duke edu wiener duke cs duke edu eduard wiener writes i can see how little taste you actually have in the cheap shot you took at me when i did nothing more than translate kozovski s insulting reference to milan pavlovic c mon you still haven t corrected yourself wieneramus in april hitler was preparing for the invasion of the caucasus a number of nazi armenian leaders began submitting plans to german officials in spring and summer one of them was souren begzadian paikhar son of a former ambassador of the armenian republic in baku paikhar wrote a letter to hitler asking for german support to his armenian national socialist movement hossank and suggesting the creation of an armenian ss formation in order to educate the youth of liberated armenia according to the spirit of the nazi ideas he wanted to unite the armenians of the already occupied territories of the ussr in his movement and with them conquer historic turkish homeland paikhar was confined to serving the nazis in goebbels propaganda ministry as a speaker for armenian and french language radio broadcastings the armenian language broadcastings were produced by yet another nazi armenian viguen chanth patrick von zur muhlen muehlen p enno meyer a j berkian zwischen rhein und arax jahre deutsch armenische beziehungen heinz holzberg verlag oldenburg pp and the establishment of armenian units in the german army was favored by general dro the butcher he played an important role in the establishment of the armenian legions without assuming any official position his views were represented by his men in the respective organs an interesting meeting took place between dro and reichsfuehrer ss heinrich himmler toward the end of dro discussed matters of collaboration with himmler and after a long conversation asked if he could visit pow camp close to berlin himmler provided dro with his private car a minor problem was that some of the soviet nationals were not aryans but subhumans according to the official nazi philosophy as such they were subject to german racism however armenians were the least threatened and indeed most privileged in august armenians had been recognized as aryans by the bureau of racial investigation in the ministry for domestic affairs meyer berkian ibid pp need i go on serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	keeping the silent memory of million muslim people alive source men are like that by leonard ramsden hartill the bobbs merrill company indianapolis pages memoirs of an armenian officer who participated in the genocide of million muslim people p their muslim villages were destroyed and they themselves were slain or driven out of the country p we armenians did not spare the tartars if persisted in the slaughtering of prisoners the looting and the rape and massacre of the helpless become commonplace actions expected and accepted as a matter of course i have been on the scenes of massacres where the dead lay on the ground in numbers like the fallen leaves in a forest they had been as helpless and as defenseless as sheep they had not died as soldiers die in the heat of battle fired with ardor and courage with weapons in their hands and exchanging blow for blow they had died as the helpless must with their hearts and brains bursting with horror worse than death itself serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	the religious persecution cultural oppression and economical in article apr news uiowa edu mau herky cs uiowa edu mau napoleon writes you may not be afraid of anything but you act as if you are i always like your kind of odds the greek governments must be held to account for the sub human conditions of the turkish minority living in the western thrace under the brutal greek domination the religious persecution cultural oppression and economical ex communication applied to the turkish population in that area are the dimensions of the human rights abuse widespread in greece greece s housing policies worry western thrace turks newly built houses belonging to members of the minority community in dedeagac province had he said been destroyed by evros province public works department on dec sungar added that they had received harsh treatment by the security forces during the demolition this is not the first demolition in dedeagac province more than houses were destroyed there between and members of that minority community were made homeless he continued greece government rail roads two turkish ethnic deputies while world human rights organizations scream greeks persistently work on removing the parliamentary immunity of dr sadik ahmet and mr ahmet faikoglu in his page confession salman demirok a former chief of pkk operations in hakkari confessed that high level relations between pkk greece and greek cypriot administration existed according to demirok greek cypriot administration not only gives shelter to pkk guerillas but also supplies them with food and weapons at the temporary camps set up in its territory demirok disclosed that pkk has three safe houses in south cyprus used by terrorists such as ferhat in the camps he added terrorists were trained to use various weapons including rpg s and anti aircraft guns which had been purchased directly from the greek government greek cypriot government has gone to the extent of issuing special identification cards to pkk members so that they can travel from one region to another without being confronted by legal obstacles demirok s account was confirmed by another pkk defector fatih tan who gave himself over to police in hakkari after spending four years with pkk tan explained that the terrorists went through a training in camps in south cyprus sometimes for a period of weeks or more torture in greece hidden reality case kostas andreadis and dimitris voglis andreadis head was covered with a hood and he was tortured by falanga beating on the soles of the feet electric shocks and was threatened with being thrown out of the window an official medical report clearly documented this torture case horst bosniatzki a west german citizen at midnight he was taken to the beach chains were put to his feet and he was threatened to be thrown to the sea he was dragged along the beach for about a km while being punched on the head and kidneys back on the police station he was beaten on the finger tips with a thin stick until one of the fingertips split open case torture of dimitris voglis case brothers vangelis and christos arabatzis vasilis papadopoulos and kostas kiriazis case torture of eight students at thessaloniki police headquarters source the british broadcasting corporation summary of world broadcasting july part a the middle east me a abu nidal s advisers reportedly training pkk asala militants in cyprus nicosia ankara tel aviv the israeli secret service mossad is reported to have acquired significant information in connection with the camps set up in the troodos mountains in cyprus for the training of militants of the pkk and asala armenian secret army for the liberation of armenia according to sources close to mossad about kurdish greek cypriot and armenian militants are undergoing training in the troodos mountains in southern cyprus the same sources stated that abu nidal s special advisers are giving military training to the pkk and asala militants in the camps they added that the militants leave southern cyprus for libya lebanon syria greece and iran after completing their training mossad has established that due to the clashes which were taking place among the terrorist groups based in syria the pkk and asala organisations moved to the greek cypriot part of cyprus where they would be more comfortable they also transferred a number of their camps in northern syria to the troodos mountains mossad revealed that the armenian national movement which is known as the mna has opened liaison offices in nicosia athens and tripoli in order to meet the needs of the camps the offices are used to provide material support for the armenian camps meanwhile the leader of the popular front for the liberation of palestine george habash is reported to have ordered his men not to participate in the operations carried out by the pkk asala which he described as extreme racist extreme nationalist and fascist reliable sources have said that habash believed that the recent operations carried out by the pkk militants show that organisation to be a band of irregulars engaged in extreme nationalist operations they added that he instructed his militants to sever their links with the pkk and avoid clashing with it it has been established that george habash expelled asala militants from his camp after asala s connections with drug trafficking were exposed source alan cowell u s greece in dispute on terror the new york times june p special to the new york times athens june a dispute developed today between athens and washington over united states intelligence reports saying that athens for several months conducted negotiations with the terrorist known as abu nidal they said the contacts were verified in what were termed hard intelligence reports abu nidal leads the palestinian splinter group al fatah revolutionary council implicated in the airport bombings at rome and vienna that contributed to the reagan administration s decision to bomb tripoli libya last year in washington state department officials said that when administration officials learned about the contacts the state department drafted a strongly worded demarche the officials also expressed unhappiness with greece s dealings with asala the armenian liberation army which has carried out terrorist acts against turks serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re rejoinder questions to israelis from bc cleveland freenet edu mark ira kaufman newsgroups talk politics mideast subject re rejoinder questions to israelis date apr gmt organization case western reserve university cleveland ohio usa although i realize that principle is not one of your strongest points i would still like to know why do do not ask any question of this sort about the arab countries if you want to continue this think tank charade of yours your fixation on israel must stop you might have to start asking the same sort of questions of arab countries as well you realize it would not work as the arab countries treatment of jews over the last several decades is so bad that your fixation on israel would begin to look like the biased attack that it is everyone in this group recognizes that your stupid center for policy research is nothing more than a fancy name for some bigot who hates israel why don t you try being honest about your hatred of israel i have heard that your family once lived in israel but the members of your family could not cut the competition there is this true about your family is this true about you is this actually not about israel but is really a personal vendetta why are you not the least bit objective about israel do you think that the name of your phony baloney center hides your bias in the least get a clue mr davidsson haven t you realized yet that when you post such stupidity in this group you are going to incur answers from people who are armed with the truth haven t you realized that a piece of selective data here and a piece there does not make up a truth haven t you realized that you are in over your head the people who read this group are not as stupid as you would hope or need them to be this is not the place for such pseudo analysis you will be continually ripped to shreds until you start to show some regard for objectivity or you can continue to show what an anti israel zealot you are trying to disguise your bias behind a pompous name like the center for policy research you ought to know that you are a laughing stock your center is considered a joke and until you either go away or make at least some attempt to be objective you will have a place of honor among the clowns bigots and idiots of usenet i couldn t have said it better mark mike
talk.politics.mideast	re american jewish congress open letter to clinton in article c wb i o blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee writes in article apr vxcrna cern ch casper vxcrna cern ch casper davi ppe writes i said the fixation on bosnia is due to it being in a european country rather than the third world ken says intervention in somalia is a counter example i am a staunch republican btw the irony of arguing against military intervention with arguments based on vietnam has not escaped me i was opposed to us intervention in somalia for the same reasons although clearly it was not nearly as risky based on the same reasons you mean you were opposed to us intervention in somalia because since somalia is a european country instead of the third world the desire to help somalia is racist i don t think this same reason applies to somalia at all no you have completely misunderstood i was opposed to intervention in somalia for the same reason i am opposed to intervention in bosnia there is no security interest of the united states there which justifies risking the lives of american servicemen and there are too many crises in the world for us to take on all of them in the case of bosnia the risks are obviously much greater and there are other countries in a much better position and with far better reasons to take action than the us the whole point is that somalia is a third world country and we were more willing to send troops there than to bosnia exactly the opposite of what the fixation on european countries theory would predict similarly the desire to help muslims being fought by christians is also exactly the opposite of what that theory predicts you continue to misunderstand i did not say the reason why people want to intervene is because of racist you seem to be overly fond of using this word btw i said the phenomenon was race related which is not the same as racist perhaps this distinction is too subtle for you to grasp motives i said the attention and outrage at the entire yugoslavian situation was a result of it being closer to home happening to people we can identify with and relentlessly harped on by the media i never said anything about which side would be preferred which has a lot more to do with the presentation of the conflict than any psychological factors i think there is no doubt that despite the fact we intervened in somalia the level of attention devoted to there was considerably less than what is devoted to bosnia if the newspapers and tv news i see are any guide dave
talk.politics.mideast	more on center for anti irsael rhetoric dear mr davidsson you claim that your purpose is to fight racism but you don t seem to have any interest in injustice except that which may have been committed by israel the treatment of jews in arab nations an injustice of staggerring proportions is an injustice that you do not seem to care the least bit about why not
talk.politics.mideast	re no humanity in bosnia in apr julian uwo ca mrizvi gfx engga uwo ca mr mubashir rizvi writes it is very encouraging that a number of people took so interest in my posting i recieved a couple of letters too some has debated the statement that events in bosnia are unprecedented in the history of the modern world those who contest this statement present the figures of the world war ii however we must keep in mind that it was a world war and no country had the power to stop it today is the matter not of the power but of the will it seems to be that what we lack is the will the idea of the u s or any other nation taking action i e military intervention in bosnia has not been well thought out by those who advocate such action after the belligerants are subdued it would require an occupation force for one or two generations if you will stop and think about it you will realize that these people have never forgotten a single slight or injury they have imbibed hatred with their mother s milk if we stop the fighting seize and destroy all weapons they will simply go back to killing each other with clubs and the price for this futility will be the lives of the young men and women we send there to die a price i am unwilling to even consider second point of difference which makes it different from the holocast sp is that at that time international community didnot have enough muscle to prevent the unfortunate event there is no valid comparison to the holocaust all of the jewish people that i have known as friends were not brought up to hate to be wary of others most certainly but not to hate and except for the warsaw uprising they were unarmed and even in warsaw badly out gunned it is very easy to speak of muscle when they are someone else s muscles suppose we do this thing what will you tell the parents wives children lovers of those we are sending to die that they gave their lives in some noble cause noble cause separating some mad dogs who will turn on them well i will offer you some muscle suppose we tell them that they have one week this will give foreign nationals time to leave to cease their bloodshed at the end of that week bring in the tomahawk firing ships and destroy belgrade as they destroyed the bosnian cities perhaps when some of their cities are reduced to rubble they will have a sudden attack of brains send in missiles by all means but do not send in troops today inspite of all the might the international community is not just standing neutral but has placed an arms embargo which by all means lift the embargo is to the obvious disadvantage of the weeker side and therefore to the advantage of the bully hence indirecltly and possibly unintentionally mankind has sided with the killers and this i think is unprecedented in the history of the modern world which killers do you honestly believe they are all on one side m rizvi reb
talk.politics.mideast	re was go hezbollah in article apr ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu brad hernlem writes in article bce news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes are you suggesting that when guerillas use the population for cover israel should totally back down so the easiest way to get away with attacking another is to use an innocent as a shield and hope that the other respects innocent lives tell me tim what are these guerillas doing wrong assuming that they are using civilians for cover are they not killing soldiers in their country if the buffer zone is to prevent attacks on israel is it not working why is it further neccessary for israeli guns to pound lebanese villages why not just kill those who try to infiltrate the buffer zone you see there is more to the shelling of the villages it is called retaliation getting back getting even it doesn t make sense to shell the villages the least it shows is a reckless disregard by the israeli government for the lives of civilians if you recall a subject was raised some weeks ago that touched upon this when someone claimed that guerillas were manifestations of popular sentiment the topic arose when does a civilian stop becoming a civilian if he houses and shelters guerillas of his own free will aiding them has he violated his civilian status what so the whole bit about attacks on israel from neighboring arab states can start all over again while i also hope for this to happen it will only occur when arab states show that they are prepared to take on the responsibility and the duty to stop guerilla attacks on israel from their soil they have to prove it or provide some guaratees there is no way israel is going to accept their word not with their past attitude of tolerance towards anti israel guerillas in residence if israel is not willing to accept the word of others then imho it has no business wasting others time coming to the peace talks but don t you see that the same statement can be made both ways if lebanon was interested in peace then it should accept the word of israel that the attacks were the cause for war and disarming the hizbollah will remove the cause for its continued occupancy afterall israel has already staged two parts of the withdrawal from areas it occupied in lebanon during slg tim you are ignoring the fact that the palestinians in lebanon have been disarmed hezbollah remains the only independent militia hezbollah does not attack israel except at a few times such as when the idf burned up sheikh mosavi his wife and young son of course if israel would withdraw from lebanon and stop assassinating people and shelling villages they wouldn t make the lebanese so mad as to do that furthermore with hezbollah subsequently disarmed it would not be possible that is not exactly true the hizbollah and their affiliated groups have made several attempts to infiltrate the border of israel it has not without the support and active involvement of syria lebanon would not have been able to accomplish all that has occurred once syria leaves who is to say that lebanon will be able to retain control if syria stays thay may be even more dangerous for israel tim when is the last time that you recall any trouble on the syrian border not lately eh israel knows very well that the syrians are able to restrain all who would use territory under their control to attack israel while lebanon would be better off with syria and israel out of its borders the presence of syrian troops in lebanon has meant a sharp decrease in attacks on israeli territory not on israeli troops in lebanon however please note the distinction in the past two years true but the syrians did allow until at least guerillas to operate in the areas that were under their control provided that those guerillas were attacking israeli lines the problem is that syria is also not as stable a partner for long term peace as others in the area might be shai guday stealth bombers os software engineer thinking machines corp the winged ninjas of the skies cambridge ma
talk.politics.mideast	re basil opinions re water on the brain in article apr ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu brad hernlem writes btw does the litani river not flow west and not south i think that its waters stay entirely within lebanese territory and so what hasan says about the jordan river makes no sense in any case the hasbani river on the other hand flows into the jordan if i am not mistaken the litani river flows in a west southwestern direction and indeed does not run through the buffer zone the hasbani does flow into the jordan but contrary to what our imaginative poster might write there has been no increase in the inflow from this river that is not proportional to climatic changes in rainfall brad hernlem hernlem chess ncsu edu shai guday stealth bombers os software engineer thinking machines corp the winged ninjas of the skies cambridge ma
talk.politics.mideast	re turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece armenia azeris in article apr cs yale edu karage scus ctstateu edu angelos karageorgiou greek and macedon the only combination writes ok my aykut what about the busload of greek turists that was torched and all the the people in the buis died happened oh about years ago in instanbul what about the greeks in the islands of imbros and tenedos they are not allowed to have churches any more instead momama turkey has turned the church into a warehouse i got a picture too what about the pontian greeks of trapezounta and sampsounta what you now call trabzon and sampson they spoke a thousand year alod language are there any left that still speek or were they islamicised before we start another flamefest and before you start quoting argic all over again or was it somebody else please think i know it is a hard thing to do for somebody not equipped but try nevertheless if turks in greece were so badly mistreated how come they elected two m not one but two representatives in the greek government how come they have free absolutely free hospitalization and education do the turks in turkey have so much if they do then you have every right to shout untill then you can also move to greece and enjoy those privileges but i forget for you do study in a foreign university some poor shod is tiling the earth with his own sweat btw is aziz nessin still writing poetry i d like to read some of his new stuff also who was the guy that wrote on the mountains of tayros please respond kindly to the last two questions i am interested in finding more books from these two people yeian kai eytyxeian the opinions expressed above are nobody else s but angelos karageorgiou mine mine miiinne miiinneeee aaaarrgghhhh live long prosper no carrier any and all mail sent to me can and will be used in any manner whatsoever i may repost or publicise parts of messages or whole messages if you disagree please exercise your freedom of speech and don t send me anything dear mr karageorgiou i would like to clarify several misunderstandings in your posting first the bus incident which i believe was in canakkale three years ago was done by a mentally ill person who killed himself afterwards the pontus greeks were ex changedwith turks in greece in i have to logout now since my greek friend yiorgos here wants to use the computer well i ll be back asta la vista baby
talk.politics.mideast	re public service translation no who the hell is this guy david davidian i think he talks too much yo david you would better shut the f up o k i don t like your attitute you are full of lies and shit didn t you hear the saying don t mess with a turc see ya in hell timucin kaan timucin georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism gt a internet gt a prism gatech edu
talk.politics.mideast	re how many israeli soldiers does it take to kill a yr old child in article apr bernina ethz ch nadeem p igp ethz ch nadeem malik writes actually if can remember correctly was it not reported and even on camera some time during the israeli invasion of lebanon or when the itifada began that cnn caught regular uniformed israeli soldiers breaking the arms of some arab youngsters in a very professional and brutal manner someone please give full details if they can remember so was it on cnn or not this is one of the few occassions on which such a scene has been transmitted to the west and in the usa it caused uproar and was one of the factors that has significantly changed the preception of the israeli army s role in the mid east so there is proof for you what proof you said above was it not reported and someone please give full details if they can remember hear say is not proof it is obvious that is a systematic policy of the israelis which must be occurring on a massive scale behind the scenes yes like the or more palestinians brutally murdered by their brothers nadeem naftaly stramer intergraph electronics internet nstramer dazixco ingr com lookout road suite a voice fax boulder co quality is everybody s job and it s everybody s job to watch all that they can
talk.politics.mideast	re was go hezbollah in article apr das harvard edu adam endor uucp adam shostack writes tell me do these young men also attack syrian troops in the south lebanon area only israeli and sla and lebanese troops are present syrian troops are deployed north of the awali river between the awali river and the security zone only lebanese troops are stationed with the blood of its soldiers if israel is interested in peace than it should withdraw from our land there must be a guarantee of peace before this happens it seems that many of these lebanese youth are unable to restrain themselves from violence and unable to to realize that their actions prolong israels stay in south lebanon that is your opinion and the opinion of the israeli government i agree peace guarantees would be better for all but i am addressing the problem as it stands now hopefully a comprehensive peace settlement will be concluded soon and will include security guarantees for both sides my proposal was aimed at decreasing the casualties in the interim period in my opinion if israel withdraws unilaterally it would still be better off than staying the israeli gov t obviously agrees with you and is not willing to do such a move i hope to be be able to change your opinion and theirs that s why i post to tpm if the lebanese army was able to maintain the peace then israel would not have to be there until it is israel prefers that its soldiers die rather than its children as i explained i contend that if israel does withdraw unilaterally i believe no attacks would ensue against northern israel i also explained why i believe that to be the case my suggestion is aimed at reducing the level of tension and casualties on all sides it is unfortunate that israel does not agree with my opinion if israel really wants to save some israeli lives it would withdraw unilaterally from the so called security zone before the conclusion of the peace talks such a move would save israeli lives advance peace efforts give israel a great moral lift better israel s public image abroad and give it an edge in the peace negociations since israel can rightly claim that it is genuinely interested in peace and has already offered some important concessions israel should withdraw from lebanon when a peace treaty is signed not a day before withdraw because of casualties would tell the lebanese people that all they need to do to push israel around is kill a few soldiers its not gonna happen that is too bad along with such a withdrawal israel could demand that hizbollah be disarmed by the lebanese government and warn that it will not accept any attacks against its northern cities and that if such a shelling occurs than it will consider re taking the buffer zone and will hold the lebanese and syrian government responsible for it why should israel not demand this while holding the buffer zone it seems to me that the better bargaining position is while holding your neighbors land because israel is not occupying the security zone free of charge it is paying the price for that once israel withdraws it may have lost a bargaining chip at the negociating table but it would save some soldiers lives that is my contention if lebanon were willing to agree to those conditions israel would quite probably have left already unfortunately it doesn t seem that the lebanese can disarm the hizbolah and maintain the peace that is completely untrue hizbollah is now a minor force in lebanese politics the real heavy weights are syria s allies the gov t is supported by syria the lebanese army is over troops and unified like never before hizbollah can have no moral justification in attacking israel proper especially after israeli withdrawal that would draw the ire of the lebanese the syrian and the israeli gov ts if israel does withdraw and such an act hizbolllah attacking israel would be akin to political and moral suicide basil adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
talk.politics.mideast	re clinton s views on jerusalem bf pyuxe cc bellcore com feigenbaum benjamin writes i recently read that during bill clinton s campaign he stated that if elected he would immediately recognize jerusalem as israel s capital according to the article mr clinton reaffirmed this after winning the presidency however during recent talks with president mubarak secretary of state christopher stated that the status of jerusalem will be a final matter of discussion between the parties now i don t want to start a big discussion over the status of jerusalem all i want to know is if anyone can authenticate mr clinton s statements with dates places etc from a recent interview in middle east insight magazine clinton said that he supports moving the us embassy to jerusalem but would not do so at this time because it would interrupt the peace talks msilverm nyx cs du edu go cubs one likes to believe in the freedom of baseball geddy lee
talk.politics.mideast	re what you should know about the serbian greek connection in apr freenet carleton ca aa freenet carleton ca suat kiniklioglu writes first of all i have to reiterate that your terminology in describing the events of are extremely misleading cyprus is not occupied by turkish forces it was invited by turkish cypriots and intervened oh i see i didn t realize this i think that perhaps you should print flyers on this topic and your reasons for thinking the way you do you should then distribute them amongst the world s population you see i don t think there are many people who are aware of this fact thank you for telling us the truth btw i would start by sending your flyers to each of the un officials also after you have distributed your flyers you might consider hiding you see i think that once more people read what you think they will have to lock you up in a mental institute and don t think they will ever let you out it is a strange strange world you live in i feel sorry for you neophytos iacovou university of minnesota email iacovou cs umn edu computer science department rutgers umn cs iacovou
talk.politics.mideast	re basil opinions re water on the brain in article qmdtlinnkrc early bird think com shaig think com shai guday writes in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes in article apr nysernet org astein nysernet org alan stein writes i guess hasan finally revealed the source of his claim that israel diverted water from lebanon his imagination alan h stein astein israel nysernet org mr water head i never said that israel diverted lebanese rivers in fact i said that israel went into southern lebanon to make sure that no water is being used on the lebanese side so that all water would run into jordan river where there israel will use it head of course posting some hard evidence or facts is much more difficult you have not bothered to substantiate this in any way basil do you know of any evidence that would support this i agree with shai there are many references to israeli plans on the litani river but i have yet to find hard evidence i had mentioned before that there is a report commissioned by the un to study the litani river it is still in draft form the israeli gov t also commissioned a study on the river that was done by dr ben wolfe the litani starts in the bekaa valley in lebanon flows southward then west across south lebanon and discharges into the mediterranean near the city of tyre there are other rivers such as the hasbani and the wazzani that start in lebanese territory than join the jordan river the most mentioned plan was one that would divert water from the litani into these then the water would flow naturally into the lac de houle but there is no evidence of any diversion structure which would need to be at least km long the area is mountainous inaccessible and occupied by israel so i have not seen any independent reports of the existence of any diversion structure there another often mentioned diversion is through deep wells it is also rumored that israe has m wells tapping into deep aquifers and drawing water on the israeli side of the border if such wells are indeed under use they would be costly to operate high energy costs and the lebanese and israeli gov t should agree on the distribution of water from shared aquifers as part of an overall peace plan and the bilateral negociations on regional issues the fact that we have been at war all this time has led to the current state of affairs where withdrawals from such aquifers is completely unregulated basil hasan shai guday stealth bombers os software engineer thinking machines corp the winged ninjas of the skies cambridge ma
talk.politics.mideast	re was go hezbollah in article bce news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes in article apr yuma acns colostate edu bh lance colostate edu writes your view of this entire matter is far too serenely one sided and selectively naive oooh now that hurts i will not suffer you through more naive and one sided views of mine please skip my articles in the future oh wise tim and have a good day basil
talk.politics.mideast	re was go hezbollah in article shaig apr composer think com shaig composer think com shai guday writes snip imagine it is not a terrorist camp as you and the israelis like to view the villages they are small communities with kids playing soccer in the streets women preparing lunch men playing cards etc i would not argue that all or even most of the villages are terrorist camps there are however some which come very close to serving that purpose and that is not to say that other did not function in that way prior to the invasion the village i described was actually the closest i could come to describing mine i agree there may be other villages where the civilian population has deserted because it is too close to israeli lines and thus gets bombed more often in such villages often the only remaining inhabitants are guerillas and some elderly who have nowhere else to go but for the most part the typical south lebanon village is more like mine one where civilians and guerillas live together they are often inhabiting the same house many families are large some have members of the families involved in hizollah most others are not that is what is so hard of south lebanon israel is not fighting an army with well drawn battle lines but a guerilla tyoe resistance which by definition and necessity blends with the local populace not because they are evil cowards that use women and children as shields but because that is the only way one can fight a more powerful better equipped occupying army some of the villages and yours might well be among them are as you describe not all are there are a large number of groups in the area backed by various organizations with a wide range of purposes hizbollah and amal were two of the larger ones and may still be hizbollah and amal are now the main two militias though hizbollah people tend to be more committed to resistrance operation and better motivated by religious conviction as to retaliation while mistakes may be made that is still a far cry from indiscriminate bombing which would have produced major casualties it may be a mixture of what we both say sometimes israel chooses its targets carefully at other times it just sends its pilots on sorties aimed at a town in general since it only knows that the attackers came from that specific village but has no further intelligence on several occasions israel retalliated against civilian refugee camps even in north lebanon just to show that it will not sit idly after its soldiers have been attacked most of the time it directs the sla to do the dirty work and indiscriminately shell some lebanese villages on the other side i have experienced this shelling myself on several occasions this is why the sla militia is sometimes even more despised than israeli troops well here we disagree i think that israel would willingly withdraw if the lebanese gov t was able to field a reliable force in the area to police it and prevent further attacks i hope you are right on israeli willingness to withdraw but i still contend that withdrawal would be the better course for israel s security since it would reduce its military losses and i claim that the lebanese and syrian gov ts would be able to prevent any further attacks on northern israel there seems to be very little incentive for the syrian and lebanese goovernment to allow hizbollah to bomb israel proper under such circumstances and now the lebanese government has proven that it is capable of controlling and disarming all militias as they did in all other parts of lebanon no the syrian gov t is more than happy to have israel sink into another lebanese morass i could elaborate if necessary hmm here we disagree on what serves syria interests better i think syria wants to have lebanon all to itself it would be willing to guarantee northern israel s security in return for israeli withdrawal i don t think syria wants israel to be involved in its protectorate of lebanon syria is sitting at the negotiating table because it has come to accept that and wants to get a political resolution a renewal of hostilities along the lebanese front could put the whole me peace negotiations back in question i agree only in the case of the isareli soldiers their killing cannot be qualified as murder no matter what you say no but it is regretable as is the whole situation i agree that the loss of any human life is deplorable and regrettable shai guday stealth bombers os software engineer thinking machines corp the winged ninjas of the skies cambridge ma basil
talk.politics.mideast	suicide bomber attack in the territories attention israel line recipients friday april two arabs killed and eight idf soldiers wounded in west bank car bomb explosion israel defense forces radio galei zahal reports today that a car bomb explosion in the west bank today killed two palestinians and wounded eight idf soldiers the blast is believed to be the work of a suicide bomber radio reports said a car packed with butane gas exploded between two parked buses one belonging to the idf and the other civilian both busses went up in flames the blast killed an arab man who worked at a nearby snack bar in the mehola settlement an israel radio report stated that the other man who was killed may have been the one who set off the bomb according to officials at the haemek hospital in afula the eight idf soldiers injured in the blast suffered light to moderate injuries danny keren
talk.politics.mideast	investment in yehuda and shomron in today s israeline posting at the end an afterthought i read more money allocated to building infrastructure in territories to create jobs for palestinians kol yisrael reports that public works geared at building infrastructure costing million new israeli shekels about million dollars will begin sunday in the territories this was announced last night by prime minister yitzhak rabin and finance minister avraham shohat in an effort to create more jobs for palestinian residents of the territories this infusion of money will bring allocations given to developing infrastructure in the territories this year to million nis up from last year s figure of million nis while i applaud investing of money in yehuda shomron v chevel azza in order to create jobs for their residents i find it deplorable that this has never been an active policy of any israeli administration since with regard to their jewish residents past governments found funds to subsidize cheap read affordable housing and the requisite infrastructure but where was the investment for creating industry which would have generated income and jobs after years yehuda and shomron remain barren bereft of even middle sized industries and the jewish settlements are sterile bedroom communities havens for in the main israelis both secular and religious who work in tel aviv or jerusalem but cannot afford to live in either city or their surrounding suburbs there s an old saying bli giboosh ayn kivoosh just living there wasn t enough we had to really settle it but instead we settled for potemkin villages and now we are paying the price and doing for others what we should have done for ourselves yonatan b horen jews who do not base their advocacy of jewish positions and interests on judaism are essentially racists the only horen netcom com morally defensible grounds for the preservation of jews as a separate people rest on their religious identity as jews
talk.politics.mideast	re no free man propaganda machine freeman with blood greetings from israel in article qev innnk early bird think com shaig think com shai guday writes in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes as for israelis menahim begal begin and yitzhak shakh shamir were leaders cute real cute now can you please stop being childish and get on with the issues of many of these gangs that massacred palestineans and became the heros of israel and its prime ministers oh sorry i forgot ben gurion too i hope he is enjoying his coffin now if israelis donot support which i doubt the oppression and killing from s now you probably mean the mass murders of jews in the west bank between hasan shai guday naftaly naftaly stramer intergraph electronics internet nstramer dazixco ingr com lookout road suite a voice fax boulder co quality is everybody s job and it s everybody s job to watch all that they can
talk.politics.mideast	car bomb in the west bank from israeline two arabs killed and eight idf soldiers wounded in west bank car bomb explosion israel defense forces radio galei zahal reports today that a car bomb explosion in the west bank today killed two palestinians and wounded eight idf soldiers the blast is believed to be the work of a suicide bomber radio reports said a car packed with butane gas exploded between two parked buses one belonging to the idf and the other civilian both busses went up in flames the blast killed an arab man who worked at a nearby snack bar in the mehola settlement an israel radio report stated that the other man who was killed may have been the one who set off the bomb according to officials at the haemek hospital in afula the eight idf soldiers injured in the blast suffered light to moderate injuries the arab that was killed was a probably from the mossad so it is not count as a murder naftaly naftaly stramer intergraph electronics internet nstramer dazixco ingr com lookout road suite a voice fax boulder co quality is everybody s job and it s everybody s job to watch all that they can
talk.politics.mideast	re was go hezbollah in article apr yuma acns colostate edu bh longs lance colostate edu basil hamdan writes in article shaig apr composer think com shaig composer think com shai guday writes that is what is so hard of south lebanon israel is not fighting an army with well drawn battle lines but a guerilla tyoe resistance which by definition and necessity blends with the local populace not because they are evil cowards that use women and children as shields but because that is the only way one can fight a more powerful better equipped occupying army while that is currently true from their perspective it is also worthwhile to note that in such cases the populace often does suffer from attempts to control the guerillas furthermore there were cases in the past of palestinian gun emplacements being situated within villages the argument that can be made for small arms fire can not be made for field pieces hizbollah and amal are now the main two militias though hizbollah people tend to be more committed to resistrance operation and better motivated by religious conviction as i recall amal was primarily nationalistically lebanon for the lebanese motivated i think that the difference between them was also a matter of funding and support one question does come to mind however given that you claim the hizbollah to be more committed etc and that their stated position is no peace talks no peace talks n no peace talks n no israel if we assume that lebanon and syria are sincere in their desire for peace why hasn t the hizbollah been disarmed i hope you are right on israeli willingness to withdraw but i still contend that withdrawal would be the better course for israel s security since it would reduce its military losses and i claim that the lebanese and syrian gov ts would be able to prevent any further attacks on northern israel bearing in mind the above and that military losses are more palatable than civilian ones i am sure you can understand why israel is slow to act in that manner no the syrian gov t is more than happy to have israel sink into another lebanese morass i could elaborate if necessary hmm here we disagree on what serves syria interests better i think syria wants to have lebanon all to itself it would be willing to guarantee northern israel s security in return for israeli withdrawal i don t think syria wants israel to be involved in its protectorate of lebanon syria is sitting at the negotiating table because it has come to accept that and wants to get a political resolution a renewal of hostilities along the lebanese front could put the whole me peace negotiations back in question i agree that syria wants lebanon to be part of its greater syria i don t necessarily see that the syrians would be unhappy to see israel up to its neck in another lebanese morass afterwhich syria could continue on its merry schedule when israeli public opinion would lead to a second pullout i agree that the loss of any human life is deplorable and regrettable sigh why can t some gov ts negotiate as easily as some people shai guday stealth bombers os software engineer thinking machines corp the winged ninjas of the skies cambridge ma
talk.politics.mideast	accounts of anti armenian human rights violations in azerbaijan accounts of anti armenian human right violations in azerbaijan prelude to current events in nagorno karabakh i said that on february when those people were streaming down our street they were shouting long live turkey and glory to turkey and during the trial i said to that ismailov what does that mean glory to turkey i still don t understand what turkey has to do with this we live in the soviet union that turkey told you to or is going to help you kill armenians i still don t understand why glory to turkey i asked that question twice and got no answer no one answered me deposition of emma setrakovna sargisian born cook sumgait emergency hospital resident at building apartment block sumgait azerbaijan to this day i can t understand why my husband an older man was killed what was he killed for he hadn t hurt anyone hadn t said any word he oughtn t have why did they kill him i want to find out from here from there from the government why my husband was killed on the th when i returned from work it was a saturday my son was at home he doesn t work i went straight to the kitchen and he called me mamma is there a soccer game there were shouts from lenin street that s where we lived i say i don t know igor i haven t turned on the tv he looked again and said mamma what s going on in the courtyard i look and see so many people it s awful marching marching there are hundreds thousands you can t even tell how many there are they re shouting down with the armenians kill the armenians tear the armenians to pieces my god why is that happening what for i had known nothing at that point we lived together well in friendship and suddenly something like this it was completely unexpected and they were shouting long live turkey and they had flags and they were shouting there was a man walking in front well dressed he s around or in a gray raincoat he is walking and saying something i can t make it out through the vent window he is walking and saying something and the children behind him are shouting tear the armenians to pieces and down with the armenians they shout it again and then shout hurrah the people streamed without end they were walking in groups and in the groups i saw that there were women too i say my god there are women there too and my son says those aren t women mamma those are bad women well we didn t look a long time they were walking and shouting and i was afraid i simply couldn t sit still i went out onto the balcony and my azerbaijani neighbor is on the other balcony and i say khalida what s going on what happened she says emma i don t know i don t know i don t know what happened well she was quite frightened too they had these white sticks each second or third one had a white rod they re waving the rods above their heads as they walk and the one who s out front like a leader he has a white stick too well maybe it was an armature shaft but what i saw was white i don t know my husband got home or minutes later he comes home and i say oh dear i m frightened they re going to kill us i bet and he says what are you afraid of they re just children i say everything that happens comes from children there had been and year kids from the technical and vocational school don t fear he said it s nothing nothing all that bad he didn t eat he just lay on the sofa and just then on television they broadcast that two azerbaijanis had been killed in karabakh near askeran when i heard that i couldn t settle down at all i kept walking here and there and i said they re going to kill us the azerbaijanis are going to kill us and he says don t be afraid then we heard from the central square there are women shouting near near the stage well they re shouting different things and you couldn t hear every well i say you speak azerbaijani well listen to what they re saying he says close the window and go to bed there s nothing happening there he listened a bit and then closed the window and went to bed and told us come on go to sleep it s nothing sleep what did he mean sleep my son and i stood at the window until two in the morning watching well he s sick and all of this was affecting him i say igor you go to bed i m going to go to bed in a minute too he went and i sat at the window until three and then went to bed things had calmed down slightly the th sunday was my day off my husband got up and said come on emma get up i say today s my day off let me rest he says aren t you going to make me some tea well i felt startled and got up and said where are you going he says i m going out i have to i say can you really go outside on a day like today don t go out for god s sake you never listen to me i know and you re not going to listen to me now but at least don t take the car out of the garage go without the car and he says come on close the door and then on the staircase he muttered something i couldn t make it out he probably said coward or something i closed the door and he left and i started cleaning picking things up around the house everything seemed quiet until one o clock in the after noon but at the bus station my neighbor told me cars were burning i said khalida was it our car she says no no emma don t be afraid they were government cars and zhigulis our car is a gaz volga and i waited it was four o clock five o clock and when he wasn t home at seven i said oh they ve killed shagen tires are burning in town there s black smoke in town and i m afraid i m standing on the balcony and i m all my whole body is shaking my god they ve probably killed him so basically i waited like that until ten o clock and he still hadn t come home and i m afraid to go out at ten o clock i look out across from our building is a building with a bookstore and from upstairs from the second floor everything is being thrown outside i m looking out of one window and igor is looking out of the other and i don t want him to see this and he as it turns out doesn t want me to see it we wanted to hide it from one another i joined him mamma he says look what they re doing over there they were burning everything and there were police standing there or of them maybe twenty policemen standing on the side and the crowd is on the other side and two or three people are throwing everything down from the balcony and one of the ones on the balcony is shouting what are you standing there for burn it when they threw the television wow it was like a bomb our neighbor on the third floor came out on her balcony and shouted why are you doing that why are you burning those things those people saved with such difficulty to buy those things for their home why are you burning them and from the courtyard they yell at her go inside go inside instead why don t you tell us if they are any of them in your building or not they meant armenians but they didn t say armenians they said of them she says no no no none then she ran downstairs to our place and says emma emma you have to leave i say they ve killed shagen anyway what do we have to live for it won t be living for me without shagen let them kill us too she insists saying emma get out of here go to khalida s and give me the key when they come i ll say that it s my daughter s apartment that they re off visiting someone i gave her the key and went to the neighbor s but i couldn t endure it i say igor you stay here i m going to go downstairs and see maybe papa s papa s there meanwhile they were killing the two brothers alik and valery albert and valery avanesians see the accounts of rima avanesian and alvina baluian in the courtyard there is a crowd near the building they re shouting howling and i didn t think that they were killing at the time alik and valery lived in the corner house across from ours when i went out into the courtyard i saw an azerbaijani our neighbor a young man about years old i say madar uncle shagen s gone let s go see maybe he s dead in the garage or near the garage let s at least bring the corpse into the house he shouts aunt emma where do you think you re going go back into the house i ll look for him i say something will happen to you too because of me no madar i m coming too well he wouldn t let me go all the same he says you stay here with us i m go look he went and looked and came back and said aunt emma there s no one there the garage is closed madar went off again and then returned and said aunt emma they re already killed alik and valery s there wheezing madar wanted to go up to him but those scoundrels said don t go near him or we ll put you next to him he got scared he s young and came back and said i m going to go call maybe an ambulance will come at least to take alik maybe he ll live they grew up together in our courtyard they knew each other well they had always been on good terms he went to call but not a single telephone worked they had all been shut off he called and called and called and called nothing i went upstairs to the neighbor s igor says two police cars drove up over there their headlights are on but they re not touching them they are still lying where they were they re still lying there we watched out the window until four o clock and then went downstairs to our apartment i didn t take my clothes off i lay on the couch so as not to go to bed and at six o clock in the morning i got up and said igor you stay here at home don t go out don t go anywhere i m going to look i have to find papa dead or alive let me go i ve got the keys from work at six o clock i went to the emergency hospital the head doctor and another doctor opened the door to the morgue i run up to them and say doctor is shagen there he says what do you mean why should shagen be here i wanted to go in but he wouldn t let me there were only four people in there they said well they must have been awful because they didn t let me in they said shagen s not here he s alive somewhere he ll come back it s already seven o clock in the morning i look and there is a panel truck with three policemen some of our people from the hospital were there with them i say sara baji sister sara term of endearment go look they ve probably brought shagen i said it shouted it and she went and came back and says no emma he has tan shoes on it s a younger person now shagen just happened to have tan shoes light tan they were already old when they said it like that i guessed immediately i went and said doctor they ve brought shagen in dead he says why are you carrying on like that dead dead he s alive but then he went all the same and when he came back the look on his face was i could tell immediately that he was dead they knew one another well shagen had worked for him a long time i say doctor is it shagen he says no emma it s not he it s somebody else entirely i say doctor why are you deceiving me i ll find out all the same anyway if not today then tomorrow and he said i screamed right there in the office he says emma go go calm down a little another one of our colleagues said that the doctor had said it was shagen but in hideous condition they tried to calm me down saying it wasn t shagen a few minutes later another colleague comes in and says oh poor emma when she said it like that there was no hope left that day was awful they were endlessly bringing in dead and injured people at night someone took me home i said igor papa s been killed on the morning of the st i left igor at home again and went to the hospital i had to bury him somehow do something i look and see that the hospital is surrounded by soldiers they are wearing dark clothes hey citizen where are you going i say i work here and from inside someone shouts yes yes that s our cook let her in i went right to the head doctor s office and there is a person from the city health department there he used to work with us at the hospital he says emma shagen s been taken to baku in the night they took the wounded and the dead all of them to baku i say doctor how will i bury him he says we re taking care of all that don t you worry we ll do everything we ll tell you about it where did you spend the night i say i was at home he says what do you mean you were at home you were at home alone i say no igor was there too he says you can t stay home we re getting an ambulance right now wait just one second the head doctor is coming we re arranging an ambulance right now you put on a lab coat and take one for igor you go and bring igor here like a patient and you ll stay here and we ll se later what to do next his last name is kagramanov the head doctor s name is izyat jamalogli sadukhov the ambulance arrived and i went home and got igor they admitted him as a patient they gave us a private room an isolation room we stayed in the hospital until the th some police car came and they said emma let s go and the women our colleagues then they saw the police car became anxious and said where are you taking her i say they re going to kill me too and the investigator says why are you saying that we re going to make a positive identification we went to baku and they took me into the morgue i still can t remember what hospital it was the investigator says let s go we need to be certain maybe it s not shagen and when i saw the caskets lying on top of one another i went out of my mind i say i can t look no the investigator says are there any identifying marks i say let me see the clothes or the shoes or even a sock i ll recognize them he says isn t they re anything on his body i say he has seven gold teeth and his finger he only has half of one of his fingers shagen was a carpenter he had been injured at work they brought one of the sleeves of the shirt and sweater he was wearing they brought them and they were all burned when i saw them i shouted oh they burned him i shouted i don t know i fell down or maybe i sat down i don t remember and that investigator says well fine fine since we ve identified that these are his clothes and since his teeth since he has seven gold teeth on the th they told me emma it s time to bury shagen now i cried how how can i bury shagen when i have only one son and he s sick i should inform his relatives he has three sisters i can t do it by myself they say ok you know the situation how will they get here from karabagh how will they get here from yerevan there s no transportation it s impossible he was killed on february and i buried him on march we buried him in sumgait they asked me where do you want to bury him i said i want to bury him in karabagh where we were born let me bury him in karabagh i m shouting and the head of the burial office i guess says do you know what it means take him to karabagh it means arson i say what do you mean arson don t they know what s going on in karabagh the whole world knows that they killed them and i want to take him to karabagh i don t have anyone anymore i begged i pleaded i grieved i even got down on my knees he says let s bury him here now and in three months in six months a year if it calms down i ll help you move him to karabagh our trial was the first in sumgait it was concluded on may at the investigation the murderer tale ismailov told how it all happened but then at the trial he tried to wriggle he tried to soften his crime then they brought a videotape recorder i guess and played it and said ismailov look is that you he says yes well look here you re describing everything as it was on the scene of the crime right he says yes and now you re telling it differently he says well maybe i forgot like that the witnesses and that criminal creep himself said that when the car was going along mir street there was a crowd of about people shagen had a volga gaz the people surrounded his car and all of them were involved one of them was this ismailov guy this tale they it s unclear who started pulling shagen out of the car well one says from the left side of the car another says from the right side they pulled off his sports jacket he had a jacket on well they ask him what s your nationality he says armenian well they say from the crowd they shouted if he s an armenian kill him kill him they started beating him they broke seven of his ribs and his heart i don t know they did something there too it s too awful to tell about anyway they say this tale guy he had an armature shaft he says i picked it up it was lying near a bush that s where i got it he said he picked it up but the witnesses say that he had already had it he said i hit him twice he said once or twice on the head with that rod and he said that when he started to beat him shagen was sitting on the ground and when he hit him he fell over he said i left right nearby they were burning things or something in an apartment killing someone he says and i came back to look is that shagen alive or not i said you wanted to finish him right and if he was still alive you came back to hit him again he went back and looked and he was already dead after that that bastard tale said after that i went home i said you you little snake i said are you a thief and a murderer shagen had had money in his jacket and a watch on his wrist they were taken he says he didn t take them when they overturned and burned the car that tale was no longer there it was other people who did that who it was who turned over the car and who burned it that hasn t been clarified as yet i told the investigator how can you have the trial when you don t know who burned the car he said something but i didn t get what he was saying but i said you still haven t straightened everything out i think that s unjust when they burned the car he was lying next to it and the fire spread to him in the death certificate it says that he had third degree burns over percent of his body and i ask again why was he killed my husband was a carpenter he was a good craftsman he knew how to do everything he even fixed his own car with his own hands we have three children three sons only igor was with me at the time the older one was in pyatigorsk and the younger one is serving in the army and now they re fatherless i couldn t sit all the way through it when the procurator read up to years deprivation of freedom i just i went out of my mind i didn t know what to do with myself i said how can that be you i said you are saying that it was intentional murder and the sentence is years deprivation of freedom i screamed i had my mind i said let me at that creep with my bare hands i ll a relative restrained me and there were all those military people there i lest i said this isn t a soviet trial this is unjust that s what i shouted l said it and left i said that on february when those people were streaming down our street they were shouting long live turkey and glory to turkey and during the trial i said to that ismailov what does that mean glory to turkey i still don t understand what turkey has to do with this we live in the soviet union that turkey told you to or is going to help you kill armenians i still don t understand why glory to turkey i asked that question twice and got no answer no one answered me may yerevan reference the sumgait tragedy pogroms against armenians in soviet azerbaijan volume i eyewitness accounts edited by samuel shahmuradian forward by yelena bonner published by aristide d caratzas ny pages david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
talk.politics.mideast	re deir yassin in article apr cs rit edu bdm cs rit edu brendan d mckay writes i have previously posted quotations by irgun participants that totally destroys begin s whitewash i have no particular desire to post it yet again brendan normally bdm cs anu edu au you apparently think you are some sort of one man judge and jury who can declare total victory and then sit back and enjoy the applause but you ve picked the wrong topic if you think a few rigged quotations can sustain the legend and lie of the deir yassin massacre you have a lot to learn when it comes to historical methodology at the most basic level you should know that there is a big difference between weighing evidence fairly and merely finding quotations that support your preset opinions if you have studied the history of israel at all you must know that many of the sources of your quotations have an axe to grind and therefore you must be very careful about whom you quote for example meir pa il whom you cite was indeed a general a scholar and a war hero but that doesn t mean everything that comes out of his mouth is gold in fact and here your lack of experience shows pa il is such a fanatic embittered leftist that much of his anti israel blathering forget about anti irgun blathering would be considered something like treason in non israel contexts but of course you don t consider this at all when you find a juicy quotation that you can use to attack israel benny morris of hashomer hatzair represents himself as a scholar when he rehashes the old attacks on the irgun don t be fooled it s just the old zionist ideological catfight surfacing as an attack on the then likud government if you will look closely at the section on deir yassin in his book on the war of independence you will see his indictment to be pure hot air and this is the best he can do after decades of digging for any sort of damning evidence unfortunately for him because his book parades itself as scholarly he is forced to put footnotes so you can clearly see that his deir yassin account is based on nothing the deir yassin massacre never took place as the propagandists tell it any more than the sabra and shatila massacres do you get the feeling people like to blame the jews for massacres even if they have to make them up it must sound spicy even some jews like to do it for reasons of their own please don t confuse any of you deir yassin massacre stuff with facts or scholarship you should stick to begin s version unless you find something serious to contradict it vic
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli terrorism tsiel writes if indeed israeli soldiers killed a hamas mujahid with an anti tank missile then i m almost sure that the terrorist zionists would not have been able to cut up a body which was probably desintegrated by the missile maybe the missile didn t hit directly such that his body gets desintegrated of course destroying houses to kill someone is not a surgical operation or is it cl cleveland freenet edu h a m z a foo i e most foo
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli terrorism m z magil writes it surprises me that this story has not yet made it to the front pages of the major newspapers which love to make the state of israel look as evil as humanly possible such a story would be eaten up by some of the papers over here so please explain to me why i have never seen nor heard of it before believe me i m not expecting a reply because we both know where the story came from your dreams i would like to remind my jewish colleague mzm that much of the stories of the holocaust including the ones in the u s holocaust memorial museum were not eaten up by some of the papers we just have to wait to build muesums for it cl cleveland freenet edu h a m z a foo i e most foo
talk.politics.mideast	re turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece armenia azeris in article apr usage csd unsw oz au hydra maths unsw edu au writes i ve heard many turks say this and it surpises me that they don t read about it remember the treaty of sevres as a consequence of being in the axis powers in wwi the turks under international law were supposed to look after their minorities ie greeks armenians kurds i must say turk kurd relations are improving slightly with time and not pose a threat to turkey s neighbours the turks blatantly rejected this treaty the germans grudgingly accepted versailles which was a million times worse for the health and pride of the german people the greeks who had an army there were there with british and french backing to enforce sevres in possibly the first example of appeasement the young turk government managed screwed the treaty of laussane out of the weak allies this was after the greek forces were were destroyed at smyrna when this occurred incidently french warships were in the harbour and many greeks trying escape swam to the french warships and climbed aboard only to get their arms cut off by the french as they clawed they re way up the sides of the ships libertae egalitae fraternatae it seems to me that you are the one who is supposed to do some reading i think that our major difference in opinion is on the legitimacy of sevres first thattreaty was signed by the ottoman empire therefore legally it does not bind the republic of turkey the new independence movement which by the way is not the same as the young turks naturally rejected it out of hand to say that we should accept because the germans did theirs is absurd we saw what the cosequences of such harsh treaties were in hitler second the sevres treaty was even worse than versailles it divided the ottoman empire in to several influence zones had the capital occupied the economy under allied control the army di minished to nothing but a police force in short a country in name only i d wonder if you would like to live under such conditions and for the record i donot feel sorry for the soldiers killed in izmir harbour before evacuating the city the greek forces burned it down so it serves them right as for being fooled by allied promises that too is your fault you did not come to anatolia just to enforce sevres but to take part in the plunder as well k burak ucer
talk.politics.mideast	re lezgians astir in azerbaijan and daghestan hello shit face david i see that you are still around i dont want to see your shitty writings posted here man i told you you are getting itchy as your fucking country hey and dont give me that freedom of speach bullshit once more because your freedom has ended when you started writing things about my people and try to translate this ebenin donu butti kafa david bye anacim hade timucin kaan timucin georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism gt a internet gt a prism gatech edu
talk.politics.mideast	re deir yassin are you trying to say that there were no massacres in deir yassin or in sabra and shatila if so then let me tell you some good jokes there is not and was not any such thing like jewish killing in wwii palestinians just did what davidians did for fourty years and more in fact no one was killed in any war at any time or any place people die that is all no one gets killed maybe also vietamiese didn t die in vietnam war killed by american napalm they were just pyromaniacs and that s all maybe jews just liked gas chambers and no one forced them to get in there they may be thought it was like snifing cocaine no what do you think of this isn t it stupid to say so well it is as stupid as what you said next time you want to lie do it intelligently sincerely yours hassan
talk.politics.mideast	brendan mckay clarifies the nazi racial theory only brendan mckay or maybe arf would come to the rescue of nazi racial theory is it distressing brendan the point is that any eugenic solution to the jewish problem as elias has proposed smacks of pure nazism the fact that elias proposal cast the entire problem as one of the abnormal presence of israeli society in the middle east and that he buried a slam against u s aid to israel in the midst of his even handed solution of the jewish question made it obvious what he had in mind disolving the jewish polity that is a nazi doctrine rectification of the abnormal presence of the jewish people within a larger body politic whether your solution involves gas monetary incentives to the poor jews to marry out or as feisal husseini has said disolve the zionist entity by forcing it to engage the normal surrounding arab culture you are engaged in a nazi project just as obvious is your statement i will not comment on the value or lack of value of elias s proposal still striking the glancing blow right brendan you could easily see where he was going but you will not comment so you are complicitous what is your fascination with nazi racial theory anyway chris metcalfe someone else in article apr cs rit edu bdm cs rit edu brendan d mckay writes a unconventional proposal for peace in the middle east by elias davidsson the emergence of a considerable number of mixed marriages in israel palestine all of whom would have relatives on both sides of the divide would make the conflict lose its ethnical and unsoluble core and strengthen the emergence of a truly civil society the existence of a strong mixed stock of people would also help the integration of israeli society into the sounds just like a racial theory that hitler outlined in mein kampf someone else said something similar i will not comment on the value or lack of value of elias s proposal i just want to say that it is very distressing that at least two people here are profoundly ignorant of nazi racial doctrine they were not like elias s idea they were more like the opposite nazis believed in racial purity not racial assimilation an instructive example is the nazi attitude to gypsies according to nazi theoreticians gypsies were an aryan race they were persecuted and in huge numbers murdered because most european gypies were considered not pure gypsies but mongrels formed from the pure gypsy race and other undesirable races this was the key difference between the theoretical approach to jews and gypsies by the way it is also true that towards the end of wwii even the purist gypsies were hunted down as the theory was forgotten brendan email bdm cs anu edu au
talk.politics.mideast	re legality of the jewish purchase while one may question the motives of the arabs who sold land to jews often while publicly criticizing the sale of land to jews it was the jews and not the arabs who were taken advantage of as the prices the jews paid for barren land was many times the price fertile land was being sold for in the united states at the same time alan h stein astein israel nysernet org
talk.politics.mideast	re anti zionism is racism b ha b ha musicb mcgill ca writes in re syria s expansion the author writes that the un thought zionism was racism and that they were wrong they were correct the first time zionism is racism and thankfully the mcgill daily the student newspaper at mcgill was proud enough to print an article saying so if you want a copy send me mail steve just felt it was important to add four letters that steve left out of his subject header alan h stein astein israel nysernet org
talk.politics.mideast	re turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece armenia azeris in article finaid auvm american edu finaid auvm american edu writes message id apr news uiowa edu mr napoleon responds there were a couple millions of greeks living in asia minor until someone had to protect them if not us who is that so or you were taking advantage of weakness of ottoman empire to grab some land as soon as you got green lights from allied forces you occupied izmir and other cities in western turkey you killed and raped millions people without any reason of course you paid the price mustafa kemal ataturk made you swim in aegean sea but not far enough your aggressions thru turkey at anytime in the past did not get you any reward and shall not get you anywhere don t swallow propaganda as truth sir british promised to venizelos greek pm that mainly greek populated areas of the ottomans will be given to greece if he will agree to drag greece in the side of the british during the wwi because the greek king was progerman the british succeeded by bombarding athens killing quite a few forcing abdication of the king division of greece into two separate states north south and finally laying the ground for the most disasterous division between greeks for our century so don t feel bitter that the allies gave any green light because they liked us anyway the british succeed to establish venizelos war starts at a second front against the germans in the south while they were fighting the war in the east against the russians and finally the wwii came in an end after that the british and french forgot immediately their promises as usually even though publicly they say that they support the greek cause practically they not only do nothing but instead using some usual reasoning and other crap rhetoric as a pretext they gradually backup kemal who had given now to the british water and bread that he will dissolve the superethnic ottoman and contract it into a small ethnic state the main drive behind this british switch was the plan to keep a muslim state in the region as buffer against a russian expansion into warm water facilities the greek empire being an orthodox christian state was too prone to become russian client out of this intrigue the current state of affairs was established on our lands while venizelos and kemal were promoted as true giants by the british since they worked to realize their goals in the region under the same plan currently greece and turkey are recipients of big military funds from the us both they are functioning as anti russian buffers while simultaneously both remain good clients of state dept because otherwise the use of terror of changing the balance of power in the aegean will be used under the same exact rational you should see the cyprus problem gr ps i don t make any anti whatever rhetoric this is the situation in our region and needs to be said the previously mentioned powers are not anything special they are fucntioning the same way which anyone else functions all throughout history so i don t selectively single them out just they are relevant to our current afairs
talk.politics.mideast	armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes by david ljunggren moscow april reuter armenia accused turkey on friday of flying weapons x and troops across armenian airspace to azerbaijan and strongly hinted it might try to shoot the planes down local journalists in yerevan said separately itar tass news agency said armenian forces had halted their latest offensive which has swallowed up one tenth of azerbaijan and sent tensions in the transcaucasian region soaring the journalists in the armenian capital quoted armen duliyan head of the armenian defence ministry press centre as saying ankara had been sending planes up to times a day to azerbaijan with arms and troops it looks as though the armenian leadership will have to warn turkey about the impermissibility of such actions the journalists quoted duliyan as saying if such steps are pursued in the future we will have recourse to appropriate measures we have all the necessary means including modern anti aircraft units turkey which shares a border with armenia has supported azerbaijan in the conflict over the mainly armenian populated nagorno karabakh region in which more than people have been killed since fighting erupted in the turkish foreign ministry said on friday it had so far sent one plane to azerbaijan containing humanitarian aid a turkish foreign ministry spokesman on thursday would not comment directly on a report by hurriyet newspaper that a first consignment of rockets rocket launchers ammunition and light weapons had arrived in azerbaijan from turkey duliyan said turkey had been sending up to trucks a day carrying troops and arms to the bordering azeri autonomous territory of nakhichevan from where they were flown across armenian airspace to the azeri capital baku all the responsibility for possible consequences will be borne by the country which is affording military assistance over our airspace he said armenia denies any formal role in the conflict saying that the troops involved in the fighting are from the enclave itself tass said the karabakh forces decided on friday to suspend their offensive along the entire armenian azerbaijani front the karabakh authorities are reportedly ready to give independent inspectors a chance to see for themselves on the spot that the enclave s leadership is striving to achieve a ceasefire the agency said armenian president levon ter petrosyan called for a two stage ceasefire in karabakh when he arrived in the belarus capital minsk on friday for a summit of commonwealth leaders the first stage of the settlement should involve a ceasefire and securing the protection of the karabakh population tass quoted him as saying at least ceasefires have been brokered in the conflict but all have collapsed the second stage should involve discussing and finding a solution to the legal issues that is a clarification of the status of nagorno karabakh he said the republic declared full independence last year but the move has not been recognised by any other country armenia insists that a separate karabakh delegation should take part in future peace talks something azerbaijan rejects local news agencies in baku said on friday that interior minister iskender gamidov a fiery nationalist and hardliner in the territorial dispute with armenia had resigned turan news agency said he quit on thursday and had cleared his office khabar servis agency said he would be replaced by the military commandant of baku police major general abdullah allakhverdiyev there was no official confirmation david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
talk.politics.mideast	armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes dear friends i am a graduate student in education at the university of tennessee as part of the requirements for a research class in music education i designed a questionnaire to colect data for my research project the study intends to determine which techniques if any have been used to teach music for the deaf if you have any experience in music education for the deaf and would like to help me with this project your help would be very much appreciated if you also want to exchange some ideas about the subject matter feel yourself welcome i have been working in this area for a while in brazil by the way i am brazilian and also in us and i am very pleased with the results i hope that this inquiry will not cause too many inconveniences thank you for or time and consideration questionnaire teaching music for deaf children name address e mail employing institution years of experience grade level s educational background bachelor masters doctorate professional field special educ music educ other if you checked other please indicate your major some school systems require music to be taught to deaf children other school systems have not thought of the possibility to teach music for children with hearing limitations the following questionnaire was designed to find out how teachers face the issue of teaching or not teaching music for the deaf also a part of this study is to determine teachers attitudes towards music programs for deaf children directions read the following questions and circle the number that best describes your attitude towards music for deaf children left column and circle the appropriate yes no or not applicable whether you do the task right column sd strongly disagree y yes dis disagree n no neu neutral n a not applicable ag agree sa strongly agree sd dis neu ag sa competencies y n n a deaf children can be educated in y n n a music deaf children should have regular y n n a music classes a special music teacher must posses y n n a an appropriate training in a variety of communication methods to use with deaf children in preparing the lessons the teacher y n n a must keep in mind that deaf children may present special needs in order to participate in musical activities deaf and normal hearing children y n n a should have music classes together of a succesful music experience y n n a by a deaf child depends upon the teacher s creativity and commitment with the subject matter deaf children can learn to appreciate y n n a music but they will never be a musician or a performer deaf children are not able to y n n a discriminate and recognize sounds deaf children can not distinguish y n n a among loud and soft sounds deaf children can never match the y n n a music in their head to a note on a musical instrument the most appropriate material to y n n a start music classes for the deaf would be the folk songs said he would be replaced by the military commandant of baku police major general abdullah allakhverdiyev there was no official confirmation david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
talk.politics.mideast	the republic of turkey sold tones of armenian bones in yarn of cargo of human bones copyright by the new york times company special cable to the new york times paris dec marseilles is excited by a weird story of the arrival in that port of a ship flying the british flag and named zan carrying a mysterious cargo of tons of human bones consigned to manufacturers there the bones are said to have been loaded at mudania on the sea of marmora and to be the remains of the victims of massacres in asia minor in view of the rumors circulating it is expected that an inquiry will be instigated reference new york times december page column bottom on the th commemorative anniversary of the turkish genocide of the armenians we remember those whose only crime was to be armenian in the shadow of an emerging turkish proto fascist state in their names we demand justice in april the turkish government began a systematically executed de population of the eastern anatolian homeland of the armenians through a genocidal extermination this genocide was to insure that turks exclusively ruled over the geographic area today called the republic of turkey the result million murdered billion dollars of armenian property stolen and plundered this genocide ended nearly years of armenian civilization on those lands today the turkish government continues to scrape clean any vestige of a prior armenian existence on those lands today s turkish governmental policy is to re write the history of the era to manufacture distortion and generate excuses for their genocide of the armenian people in the face of refutation ad nauseam the turkish historical society and cronies shamelessly continue to deny that any such genocide occurred this policy merely demonstrates that in the modern era genocide is an effective state policy when it remains un redressed and un punished a crime unpunished is a crime encouraged adolf hitler took this cue less than years after the successful genocide of the armenians turkey claims there was no systematic deportation of armenians yet armenians were removed from every city town and village in the whole of turkey armenians who resisted deportation and massacre are referred to as rebels turkey claims there was no genocide of the armenians yet turkish population figures today show zero armenians in eastern turkey the armenian homeland turkey claims armenians were always a small minority yet turkey claims armenians were a threat in a final insult to the victims the republic of turkey sold the bones of approximately murdered armenians for profit to europe today the turkish government is enjoying the fruits of that genocide the success of this genocide is hangs over the heads of turkey s kurdish population the armenians demand recognition reparation return of armenian land and property lost as a result of this genocide armenians demand justice ermeniler adalet istiyor david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org armenia has not learned a lesson in s d p a center for regional studies anatolia and has forgotten the p o box punishment inflicted on it cambridge ma late turkish president turgut ozal
talk.politics.mideast	re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes henrik the student of regional killings alias davidian not the davidian religios sect writes greater armenia would stretch from karabakh to the black sea to the mediterranean so if you use the term greater armenia use it with care finally you said what you dream about mediterranean that was new the area will be greater after some years like your holocaust numbers it has always been up to the azeris to end their announced winning of karabakh by removing the armenians when the president of azerbaijan elchibey came to power last year he announced he would be be swimming in lake sevan in armeniaxn by july is t july in usa now here in sweden it s april and still cold or have you changed your calendar well he was wrong if elchibey is going to shell the armenians of karabakh from aghdam his people will pay the price if elchibey is going to shell karabakh from fizuli his people will pay the price if elchibey thinks he can get away with bombing armenia from the hills of kelbajar his people will pay the price nothing of the mentioned is true but let say it s true shall the azeri women and children going to pay the price with being raped killed and tortured by the armenians have you hearded something called geneva convention you facist ohhh i forgot this is how armenians fight nobody has forgot you killings rapings and torture against the kurds and turks once upon a time and anyway this kurd refugee story as have other stories are simple fabrications sourced in baku modified in ankara other examples of this are armenia has no border with iran and the ridiculous story of the intercepting of armenian military conversations as appeared in the new york times supposedly translated by somebody unknown from armenian into azeri turkish submitted by an unnamed special correspondent to the ny times from baku real accurate ohhhh so swedish redcross workers do lie they too what ever you say regional killer if you don t like the person then shoot him that s your policy l he search turkish planes you don t know what you are talking about he since it s content is announced to be weapons i i well big mouth ozal said military weapons are being provided to azerbaijan i from turkey yet demirel and others say no no wonder you are so confused i i i confused i you facist when you delete text don t change it i wrote i i search turkish planes you don t know what you are talking about i turkey s government has announced that it s giving weapons i to azerbadjan since armenia started to attack azerbadjan it self not the karabag province so why search a plane for weapons since it s content is announced to be weapons if there is one that s confused then that s you we have the right and we do to give weapons to the azeris since armenians started the fight in azerbadjan you are correct all turkish planes should be simply shot down nice slow moving air transports shoot down with what armenian bread and butter or the arms and personel of the russian army hilmi eren stockholm university
talk.politics.mideast	re zionism is racism in article apr vm mcgill ca b ha b ha musicb mcgill ca writes in re syria s expansion the author writes that the un thought zionism was racism and that they were wrong they were correct the first time zionism is racism and thankfully the mcgill daily the student newspaper at mcgill was proud enough to print an article saying so if you want a copy send me mail steve was the article about zionism or about something else the majority of people i heard emitting this ignorant statement do not really know what zionism is they have just associated it with what they think they know about the political situation in the middle east so steve lets here what is zionism michael
talk.politics.mideast	re news briefs from kh mack posted i know nothing about statistics but what significance does the relatively small population growth rate have where the sampling period is so small at the end of this is not small a per cent annual population growth rate implies a doubling in approx years can you imagine that most people seem not able to and that is why so many deny that this problem exists for me most especially in the industrialised countries low growth rates but large environmental impact iran s high growth rate threatens things like accelerated desertification due to intensive agriculture deforestation and water table drop similar to what is going on in california this year s rain won t save you in stanford this is probably more to blame than the current government s incompetence for dropping living standards in iran gruss dr bruce scott the deadliest bullshit is max planck institut fuer plasmaphysik odorless and transparent bds at spl n aug ipp garching mpg de w gibson
talk.politics.mideast	accounts of anti armenian human right violations in azerbaijan accounts of anti armenian human right violations in azerbaijan prelude to current events in nagorno karabakh right we should slaughter the armenians and there s no need to be afraid all of moscow is behind us i even heard that all moscow is behind us well i watched and listened in and realized that this was no joke deposition of yuri vagarshakovich musaelian born line electrician sumgait streetcar and trolleybus administration resident at building apartment block narimanov street sumgait azerbaijan i spent almost all of february doing overhaul the th was a short day at work we worked until eleven or eleven thirty and left for home i decided to go for a short walk i went to primorsky park i walked past the eternal flame and saw a group of about to people standing there when i had walked another to yards i heard the screech of automobile brakes behind me i turned my head toward the sound it was a light blue gaz volga i see that the people who were standing there have gone over to the car a man and a woman get out the man is expensively dressed in a suit and the woman has a raincoat on she doesn t have anything on her head and her hair is let down sightly reddish hair a heavy set woman they re to years old they get something out of the trunk the people start to help them i become curious just what are they pulling out of there when i got up close i heard them turn something on i didn t see what it was but it was probably a tape recorder they put it on the ground near the eternal flame honoring the baku commissars and formed a tight circle around it i ask what s going on someone tells me come listen well they were azerbaijanis i had asked in azerbaijani i hear appeals brother muslims our time has come and something else along that line i didn t understand what it was all about i walked around the group trying to get a look at the owner of the tape recorder but the circle drew in tighter new people started coming from various directions five here seven there and the comments started right we should slaughter the armenians and there s no need to be afraid all of moscow is behind us i even heard that all moscow is behind us well i watched and listened in and realized that this was no joke i quietly left and went home now before that at work i had heard that something was going on in karabagh that there were demonstrations there well people were saying all kinds of things but i didn t have any idea what was really going on my wife and son were at home but my daughter was at my aunt s house in baku i didn t say anything to my wife we sat and drank tea sometime around two o clock right behind our house suddenly there is noise whistling and shouting i looked out the window and saw a crowd the crowd is moving slowly like they show on tv when blacks in south africa are striking or having a demonstration and move slowly my wife asks what s going on out there i say i don t know i put on some outdoor clothes and went out to find out what it was all about in the crowd people are shouting down with the armenians and death to the armenians i waited for the entire crowd to pass at first they went down narimanov street on the side with the sk club and the city party committee then they turned and went against the traffic it s one way there down the street of the baku commissars toward the streetcar line i went home and told my wife there was a demonstration going on in fact i thought that we were having the same kind of demonstrations that they had had in yerevan and in karabagh aside from the things they were shouting i was surprised that there were only young people in the crowd and they were minors under draft age my wife and son wanted to go upstairs to visit a friend but i was kind of uneasy and said no let s stay at home instead an hour went by or maybe an hour and a half well i wasn t keeping track of the time i can t say exactly how long it was i look and see another crowd on narimanov but now on the side with the microdistricts the bazaar and the rossiya movie theater i put outside clothes on and went out again there s noise an uproar outside and the crowd has grown there are more people and whereas the first time there were individual shouts this time they are more focused more aggressive no i think something s wrong here this isn t any demonstration they would run stop then walk quickly and make sharp dashes and then run again i was walking along the sidewalk and they were in the street i followed them i was thinking i d just watch and see who knew where this was leading we came out on lenin square at the square the sk club is on one side and the city party committee is on the other i went toward the square and heard noise and shouting as though the whole town had turned out there was some sort of a rally going on i go closer and hear exclamations appeals i heard both anti armenian and anti soviet appeals we don t need perestroika we want to go on living like we have been now what did they mean by living like we have been the azerbaijanis work like everyone else but too many people live at the expense of the government and at the expense of others speculation theft and cheating go on all the time and not just in azerbaijan everywhere in all the republics but i ve never seen it anywhere else like i have in azerbaijan now at this rally someone says that they should go around to the armenians apartments and drive them out beat them and drive them out true i didn t hear them say kill them over the microphone i only heard beat them and drive them out i stayed at the square a few minutes longer first one then another are going up onto the stage and no one tries to stop the crowd off to the side of the crowd there were small groups of three or four people and i think they were mvd ministry of internal affairs or state security kgb there were also uniformed policemen there but i didn t see any of them try to pacify the crowd new people kept coming up onto the stage well i had finally decided that this could end badly this was no demonstration and i had to protect my family i left the square to return home and suddenly noticed a truck it was next to the city party committee on narimanov street it stood next to the tai lor s shop there a low truck and it had low wooden panels i see that some thing is being unloaded crates of some sort i decided to go look because after all those appeals i was apprehensive and thought there might be weapons in there they pulled the crates out onto the square not toward the city party committee but toward the sk club and when i went right up to them i saw that they were cases of vodka there were two people handing down the cases from the bed of the truck and on the ground there were many people to they were handing them down from the truck and each case was carried off by two people two people one case of vodka and there was a man standing right next to the truck and he was handing out roundish black lumps maybe about the size of a fist maybe a little bigger or smaller it was anasha when i passed next to that person he stood with his side to me there was about a yard and a half between us and two people were standing near him he has a package in his hand and he s pulling out anasha and handing it out i have never smoked it myself once i tried it for fun but i ve seen a lot of people smoke it i ve seen it many times and i know what it is i strolled around and no one asked me who i was or what i was doing there before i got to the glass bazaar i heard more howling more warlike shouting i turned around and saw them running well i ll just keep on going like i am i thought when they caught up with me i saw that they were carrying flags and i recognized the person who was carrying the flag on my side of the street he s a young guy or years old he was carrying a red flag which had ermeni oryum written on it in azerbaijani that means death to armenians that guy used to live off the same courtyard as us i don t really know what his name is but i know his father very well his father s name is rafik he used to be a cook and then became head chef he used to have a dark blue zhiguli van then he sold it and now he has a white zhiguli his family as i said lived on the same courtyard as we did our building was on narimanov street and theirs was on the street of the baku commissars their apartment was in the far entryway on the fifth floor the door on the left now rafik s little brother lives there and he rafik i heard got a new apartment either in the forth or eighth microdistrict in a word his son was carrying a flag that said death to armenians i was surprised because before this i had gotten the impression that all of this nonsense was being done not by people from sumgait but by azerbaijanis from agdam and kafan well anyway i went home my wife was upset i told her it s ok it ll pass they re young kids they ve just gotten all whooped up naturally i didn t want her to get overly upset after a while a new surge of crowd went by and this time they were breaking glass i could hear it breaking but i couldn t see where well i think here we go the machine s in motion they weren t handing out that vodka and anasha for nothing i didn t see people drinking and smoking on the spot but they certainly hadn t unloaded the vodka and hashish to put in a store window so the thought flashed through my head that the machine was running no one would stop them now they weren t even trying although i ll say it again the police were there i saw them and it s not just that the police weren t breaking them up they were joking with them they were having a good time true at the time i couldn t even imagine that under our government our much vaunted leadership and i m not afraid to say these words so many people died so many women were abused and how many abominations there were i couldn t imagine that under our much vaunted authorities and if i were to be specific i would say under the much touted authorities in our city of sumgait i couldn t imagine that such things could take place when they started breaking glass i told my wife and son let s go upstairs we went to our neighbors the grigorians on the fourth floor and in the evening when those crowds started going past again i went outside once more i stopped at the corner a place called that right next to the bazaar i look and see a crowd on the run and there a few yards from the entrance to the bazaar are three respectable looking men of around say years old the crowd was running and one of the three waved with his arm and pointed toward the bazaar and then the whole crowd as though it were one person wheeled and raced toward the bazaar and not a soul went past those three as though it were off limits well everything got all churned up there was more noise and the glass was flying again we spent the night at the neighbors my apartment was on the first floor there was really no way to defend yourself there in the morning i went out to buy bread and to see what was happening in town on the way i saw someone hunched up still i never found out who it was or what happened to him there were to people standing near him i got the bread and on my way back they had gathered around the person who was lying there hunched up sort of enclosing him because of the way they were standing you couldn t even see him that was on the morning of february everyone knows the rest may yerevan reference the sumgait tragedy pogroms against armenians in soviet azerbaijan volume i eyewitness accounts edited by samuel shahmuradian forward by yelena bonner published by aristide d caratzas ny pages david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
talk.politics.mideast	u s wants iran to end terrorism links washington upi a senior state department official on tuesday ruled out any softening of u s attitudes toward iraq but said relations with iran s islamic regime could improve substantially if that government disassociates itself from international terrorism despite the name calling and the harsh rhetoric from across the gulf despite all this we do not take a position of permanent hostility towards the islamic republic of iran david mack deputy assistant secretary for near eastern affairs said the primary u s objection is iran s international behaviour which includes extending support of violence to disrupt the arab israeli peace process and its rapid build up of dangerous weapons mack said iran could contribute to regional stability and peace but first it is to end the behaviour which threatens this area mack spoke at the u s gcc business conference aimed at promoting gulf american trade he said the middle east will be an item very high on the agenda of the u s administration the importance of the gulf is underlined by secretary of state warren christoper s visit last year to saudi arabia and kuwait before anywhere else in the world mack said he added that the u s has no long term plan to station troops in the gulf mack also insisted that the clinton administration will continue to pressure iraq to comply with all the u n security resolutions as long as iraq is ruled by saddam hussein we do not expect compliance mack told delegates copyright by upi newsbytes
talk.politics.mideast	final solution for gaza from center for policy research cpr subject final solution for gaza final solution for the gaza ghetto while israeli jews fete the uprising of the warsaw ghetto they repress by violent means the uprising of the gaza ghetto and attempt to starve the gazans the gaza strip this tiny area of land with the highest population density in the world has been cut off from the world for weeks the israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of gaza some people by denying them the right to leave the strip and seek work in israel while polish non jews risked their lives to save jews from the ghetto no israeli jew is known to have risked his life to help the gazan resistance the only help given to gazans by israeli jews only dozens of people is humanitarian assistance the right of the gazan population to resist occupation is recognized in international law and by any person with a sense of justice a population denied basic human rights is entitled to rise up against its tormentors as is known the israeli regime is considering gazans unworthy of israeli citizenship and equal rights in israel although they are considered worthy to do the dirty work in israeli hotels shops and fields many gazans are born in towns and villages located in israel they may not live there for these areas are reserved for the master race the nazi regime accorded to the residents of the warsaw ghetto the right to self administration they selected jews to pacify the occupied population and preventing any form of resistance some jewish collaborators were killed israel also wishes to rule over gaza through arab collaborators as israel denies gazans the only two options which are compatible with basic human rights and international law that of becoming israeli citizens with full rights or respecting their right for self determination it must be concluded that the israeli jewish society does not consider gazans full human beings this attitude is consistent with the attitude of the nazis towards jews the current policies by the israeli government of cutting off gaza are consistent with the wish publicly expressed by prime mininister yitzhak rabin that gaza sink into the sea one is led to ask oneself whether israeli leaders entertain still more sinister goals towards the gazans whether they have some final solution up their sleeve i urge all those who have slight human compassion to do whatever they can to help the gazans regain their full human civil and political rights to which they are entitled as human beings elias davidsson iceland from elias ismennt is fri apr received from isgate is by igc apc org revision id aa fri apr pdt received from rvik ismennt is by isgate is c isnet fri apr gmt received by rvik ismennt is isnet fri apr gmt from elias ismennt is elias davidsson message id aa rvik ismennt is subject no subject file transmission to cpr igc org date fri apr gmt x charset ascii x char esc status ro final solution for the gaza ghetto while israeli jews fete the uprising of the warsaw ghetto they repress by violent means the uprising of the gaza ghetto and attempt to starve the gazans the gaza strip this tiny area of land with the highest population density in the world has been cut off from the world for weeks the israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of gaza some people by denying them the right to leave the strip and seek work in israel while polish non jews risked their lives to save jews from the ghetto no israeli jew is known to have risked his life to help the gazan resistance the only help given to gazans by israeli jews only dozens of people is humanitarian assistance the right of the gazan population to resist occupation is recognized in international law and by any person with a sense of justice a population denied basic human rights is entitled to rise up against its tormentors as is known the israeli regime is considering gazans unworthy of israeli citizenship and equal rights in israel although they are considered worthy to do the dirty work in israeli hotels shops and fields many gazans are born in towns and villages located in israel they may not live there for these areas are reserved for the master race the nazi regime accorded to the residents of the warsaw ghetto the right to self administration they selected jews to pacify the occupied population and preventing any form of resistance some jewish collaborators were killed israel also wishes to rule over gaza through arab collaborators as israel denies gazans the only two options which are compatible with basic human rights and international law that of becoming israeli citizens with full rights or respecting their right for self determination it must be concluded that the israeli jewish society does not consider gazans full human beings this attitude is consistent with the attitude of the nazis towards jews the current policies by the israeli government of cutting off gaza are consistent with the wish publicly expressed by prime mininister yitzhak rabin that gaza sink into the sea one is led to ask oneself whether israeli leaders entertain still more sinister goals towards the gazans whether they have some final solution up their sleeve i urge all those who have slight human compassion to do whatever they can to help the gazans regain their full human civil and political rights to which they are entitled as human beings elias davidsson iceland
talk.politics.mideast	symbiotics zionism antisemitism from center for policy research cpr subject symbiotics zionism antisemitism zionism and the holocaust by haim bresheeth the first point to note regarding the appropriation of the history of the holocaust by zionist propaganda is that zionism without anti semitism is impossible zionism agrees with the basic tenet of anti semitism namely that jews cannot live with non jews the history and roots of the holocaust go back a long way while the industru of death and destruction did not operate before its roots were firmly placed in the th century jewish aspirations for emancipation emerged out of the national struggles in europe when the hopes for liberation through bourgeois democratic change were dashed other alternatives for improving the lot of the jews of europe achieved prominence the socialist bund a mass movement with enormous following had to contend with opposition from a new and small almost insignificant opponent the political zionists in outline these two offered diametrically opposed options for jews in europe while the bund was suggesting joining forces with the rest of europe s workers the zionists were proposing a new programme aimed at ridding europe of its jews by setting up some form of a jewish state historically nothing is inevitable all depends on the balance of forces involved in the struggle history can be seen as an option tree every time a certain option is chosen other routes become barred because of that choice movement backwards to the point before that choice was made is impossible while zionism as an option was taken by many young jews it remained a minority position until the first days of the rd reich the zionist federation of germany zvfd an organisation representing a tiny minority of german jews was selected by the nazis as the body to represent the jews of the reich its was the only flag of an interantional organisation allowed to fly in berlin and this was the only international organisation allowed to operate during this period from a marginal position the leaders of the zionist federation were propelled to a prominence and centrality that surprised even them all of a sudden they attained political power power based not on representation but from being selected as the choice of the nazi regime for dealing with the the jewish problem their position in negotiating with the nazis agreements that affected the lives of many tens of thousands of the jews in germany transformed them from a utopian marginal organisation in germany and some other countries in europe into a real option to be considered by german jews the best example of this was the transfer agreement of immediately after the nazi takeover in jews all over the world supported or were organising a world wide boycott of german goods this campaign hurt the nazi regime and the german authorities searched frantically for a way disabling the boycott it was clear that if jews and jewish organisations were to pull out the campaign would collapse this problem was solved by the zvfd a letter sent to the nazi party as early as june outlined the degree of agreement that existed between the two organisations on the question of race nation and the nature of the jewish problem and it offered to collaborate with the new regime the realisation of zionism could only be hurt by resentment of jews abroad against the german development boycott propaganda such as is currently being carried out against germany in many ways is in essence unzionist because zionism wants not to do battle but to convince and build in their eagerness to gain credence and the backing of the new regime the zionist organisation managed to undermine the boycott the main public act was the signature of the transfer agreement with the nazi authorities during the zionist congress of in essence the agreement was designed to get germany s jews out of the country and into mandate palestine it provided a possibility for jews to take a sizeable part of their property out of the country through a transfer of german goods to palestine this right was denied to jews leaving to any other destination the zionist organisation was the acting agent through its financial organisations this agreement operated on a number of fronts helping jews to leave the country breaking the ring of the boycott exporting german goods in large quantities to palestine and last but not least enabling the regime to be seen as humane and reasonable even towards its avowed enemies the jews after all they argued the jews do not belong in europe and now the jews come and agree with them after news of the agreement broke the boycott was doomed if the zionist organization found it possible and necessary to deal with the nazis and import their goods who could argue for a boycott this was not the first time that the interests of both movements were presented to the german public as complementary baron von mildenstein the first head of the jewish department of the ss later followed by eichmann was invited to travel to palestine this he did in early in the company of a zionist leader kurt tuchler having spent six months in palestine he wrote a series of favourable articles in der sturmer describing the new jew of zionism a jew nazis could accept and understand this little known episode established quite clearly the relationship during the early days of nazism between the new regime and the zvfd a relationship that was echoed later in a number of key instances even after the nature of the final solution became clear in many cases this meant a silencing of reports about the horrors of the exterminations a book concentrating on this aspect of the zionist reaction to the holocaust is post ugandan zionism in the crucible of the holocaust by s b beth zvi in the case of the kastner episode around which jim allen s play perdition is based even the normal excuse of lack of knowledge of the real nature of events does not exist it occured near the end of the war the ussr had advanced almost up to germany italy and the african bases had been lost the nazis were on the run with a number of key countries such as rumania leaving the axis a second front was a matter of months away as the western allies prepared their forces in the midst of all this we find eichmann the master bureaucrat of industrial murder setting up his hz in occupied budapest after the german takeover of the country in april his first act was to have a conference with the jewish leadership and to appoint zionist federation members headed by kastner as the agent and clearing house for all jews and their relationship with the ss and the nazr authorities why they did this is not difficult to see as opposed to poland where its three and a half million jews lived in ghettoes and were visibly different from the rest of the polish population the hungarian jews were an integrated part of the community the middle class was mainly jewish the jews were mainly middle class they enjoyed freedom of travel served in the hungarian fascist army in fronline units as officers and soldiers their names were hungarian how was eichmann to find them if they were to be exterminated the task was not easy there were a million jews in hungary most of them resident the rest being refugees from other countries many had heard about the fate of jews elsewhere and were unlikely to believe any statements by nazi officials like elsewhere the only people who had the information and the ear of the frightened jewish population were the judenrat in this case the judenrat comprsied mainly the zionist federation members without their help the ss with officers and less than men plus a few hundred hungarian police could not have collected and controlled a million jews when they did not even know their whereabouts kastner and the others were left under no illusions eichmann told joel brand one of the members of kastner s committee that he intended to send all hungary s jews to auschwitz before he even started the expulsions he told them clearly that all these jews will die a day unless certain conditions were met the committee faced a simple choice to tell the jews of hungary about their fate with neutral rumania where many could escape being in most cases a few hours away or to collaborate with the nazis by assisting in the concentration process what would not have been believed when coming from the ss sounded quite plausible when coming from the mouths of the zionist leadership thus it is that most of the hungarian jews went quietly to their death assured by their leadership that they were to be sent to work camps to be sure there are thirty pieces of silver in this narrative of destruction the trains of prominents which eichmann promised to kastner a promise he kept to the last detail for eichmann it was a bargain allowing jews to survive as the price paid for the silent collaboration over the death of almost a million jews there was no way in which the jews of hungary could even be located not to say murdered without the full collaboration of kastner and his few friends no doubt the ss would hunt a few jews here and there but the scale of the operation would have been miniscule compared to the half million who died in auschwitz it is important to realise that kastner was not an aberration like say rumkovsky in lodz kastner acted as a result of his strongly held zionist convictions his actions were a logical outcome of earlier positions this is instanced when he exposed to the gestapo the existence of a british cell of saboteurs palgi and senesh and persuaded them to give themselves up so as not to disrupt his operations at no point during his trial or elsewhere did kastner deny that he knew exactly what was to happen to those jews to conclude the role played by zionists in this period was connected to another role they could and should have played that of alarming the whole world to what was happening in europe they had the information but politically it was contrary to their priorities the priorities were and still are quite simple all that furthers the zionist enterprise in palestine is followed whatever the price the lives of individuals jews and non jews are secondary if this process requires dealing with fascists nazis and other assorted dictatorial regimes across the world so be it
talk.politics.mideast	hebrew labor racist connotations from center for policy research cpr subject hebrew labor racist connotations avoda ivrit hebrew labor hebrew labor is a concept which has served the zionist movement for a long time it has a double barreled message the new jew must learn to do physical labor i e working the land the land in this country must pass into jewish hands i e to the same new jew who has learned to work it both aspects of the two pronged concept of hebrew labor have racist connotations on the one hand the diaspora jew s lack of training in physical labor is a myth shared by zionists and antisemites on the other hand its meaning in practice has been the displacement of the arab farmer from the source of his livelihood the occupation and the cheap palestinian labor which streamed from the occupied territories to the factories orchards and hot houses of israel relegated the myth of hebrew labor to the history books and nostalgic memories of the zionist movement it has blossomed forth anew however as the government s answer to problems caused by the closure of the territories today too this concept has two functions to give a progressive look to the closing of the palestinian population or in the words of environment minister yossi sarid i have no tears for those who get rich off of cheap labor to furnish an answer to the unemployed israeli who complains of being obliged to work for wages that are lower than the unemployment insurance he receives the israeli government is considering plans to import labor from the far east to replace native people palestinians who work in their own country thus creating conflicting interests between two ethnical communities and ruling over them
talk.politics.mideast	more on adl spying case los angeles times tuesday april p a new details of extensive adl spy operation emerge inquiry transcripts reveal nearly years of espionage by a man who infiltrated political groups by richard c paddock times staff writer san francisco to the outside world roy bullock was a small time art dealer who operated from his house in the castro district in reality he was an undercover spy who picked through garbage and amassed secret files for the anti defamation league for nearly years his code name at the prominent jewish organization was cal and he was so successful at infiltrating political groups that he was once chosen to head an arab american delegation that visited rep nancy pelosi d san francisco in her washington d c office for a time cal tapped into the phone message system of the white aryan resistance to learn of hate crimes from police sources he obtained privileged personal information on at least people and he met surreptitiously with agents of the south african government to trade his knowledge for crisp new bills these are among the secrets that bullock and david gurvitz a former los angeles based operative divulged in extensive interviews with police and the fbi in a growing scandal over the nation wide intelligence network operated by the anti defamation league officials of the anti defamation league while denying any improper activity have said they will cooperate with the investigation they have refused to discuss bullock and gurvitz transcripts of the interviews among nearly pages of documents released by san francisco prosecutors last week offer new details of the private spy operation that authorities allege crossed the line into illegal territory at times the intelligence activities took on a cloak and dagger air with laundered payments shredded documents hotel rendezvous with foreign agents and code names like ironsides and flipper on one occasion gurvitz recounts he received a tip that a pro palestinian activist was about to board a plane bound for haifa israel although the anti defamation league publicly denies any ties to israel gurvitz phoned an israeli consular official to warn him shortly afterward another official called gurvitz back and debriefed him the court papers also added to the mystery of tom gerard a former cia agent and san francisco police officer accused of providing confidential material from police files to the anti defamation league gerard fled to the philippines last fall after he was interviewed by the fbi but left behind a briefcase in his police locker its contents included passports driver s licenses and identification cards in different names identification cards in his own name for four american embassies in central america and a collection of blank birth certificates army discharge papers and official stationery from various agencies also in the briefcase were extensive information on death squads a black hood apparently for use in interrogations and photos of blindfolded and chained men investigators suspect that gerard and other police sources gave the adl confidential driver s license or vehicle registration information on a vast number of people including as many as members of one target group the arab american anti discrimination committee each case of obtaining such data from a law enforcement officer would constitute a felony san francisco police inspector ron roth noted in an affidavit for a search warrant the anti defamation league a self described jewish defense and civil rights organization acknowledges it has long collected information on groups that are anti semitic extremist or racist the adl s fact finding division headed by irwinn suall in new york enjoys a reputation for thoroughness and has often shared its information with police agencies and journalists however evidence seized from bullock s computer shows he kept files on at least groups of all political stripes including the american civil liberties union earth island institute the united farm workers jews for jesus mother jones magazine the center for investigative reporting the bo gritz for president committee the asian law caucus and the aids activist group act up the computer files also included information on several members of congress including pelosi house armed services committee chairman ron dellums d berkeley and former republican rep pete mccloskey from the bay area in their statements bullock and gurvitz said the anti defamation league has collected information on political activists in the los angeles area for more than years they said they worked closely with three los angeles county sheriff s deputies who specialized in intelligence work a los angeles police department anti terrorism expert and a san diego county sheriff s department intelligence officer a spokesman for the los angeles sheriff s department said he knew nothing of any contact between the deputies and the adl the los angeles police department which earlier refused to cooperate with the investigation and the san diego sheriff s department declined comment bullock is one of the most intriguing characters in the spy drama although he is not jewish he began working undercover as a volunteer for the adl and the fbi in indiana in after reading a book about a man who infiltrated the communist party bullock moved to los angeles in and was given a paid position by the adl as an intelligence operative he told authorities in the mid s he moved to san francisco and continued his spy operations up and down the west coast to keep his identity secret his salary has always been funneled through beverly hills attorney bruce i hochman who has never missed a payment in more than years bullock said i was an investigator for the adl i investigated any and all anti democratic movements bullock said officially i m only a contract worker with bruce hochman that way the league would not be officially connected with me bullock said he became a master at infiltrating groups from communists to arab american to gay radicals to skinheads usually using his own name but once adopting the alias elmer fink i m one of a kind he told police in recent years however his adl affiliation has increasingly become known and at one point he was confronted by a skinhead armed with a shotgun who threatened to kill him in the mid s he helped san francisco police solve a bombing at a synagogue by combing through the trash of extremist cory phelps and matching handwriting with samples on a threatening letter obtained by police in part because of this investigation he became close friends with gerard who at the time was working in the san francisco police intelligence division bullock frequently searched through the garbage of target groups an fbi report noted how he investigated one palestinian group bullock would write reports based on what he found in the trash and would share the reports with gerard bullock also gave the trash to gerard for gerard to examine gerard would later return the trash to bullock from a wide range of sources bullock compiled files on individuals and more than political groups gerard whose files contained many identical entries kept files on people in bullock and gerard began selling some of their vast wealth of information to the south african government bullock tells of meetings secretly with south african agents at san francisco hotels and receiving envelopes filled with thousands of dollars in new bills bullock insists the information he sold consisted of data he culled only from public sources once he rewrote an innocuous item published by san francisco chronicle columnist herb caen about south african bishop desmond tutu and the wife of prominent attorney melvin belli and submitted it as his own work bullock said it was gerard who sold official police intelligence bullock said he split about from the south african government evenly with gerard telling him at one point i may be gay but i m a straight arrow in his interviews with the police and fbi bullock talked freely about engaging in certain activities that prosecutors say would appear to violate the law for example bullock admitted to receiving driver s license records and criminal histories from gerard on about people a fraction of the confidential police data found in his computer and he said gerard gave him complete san francisco police department intelligence files on various nazi groups that were supposed to be destroyed under department policy bullock said he also received a confidential fbi report on the nation of islam that he later shredded at the anti defamation league s san francisco office bullock seemed proud of his operation eavesdrop in which he used a paid informant code named scumbag to help tap into a white aryan resistance phone message network listening to the messages left by members of the right wing group for a short time it was wonderful he told police in los angeles adl operative gurvitz was hired about four years ago as a fact finder to keep intelligence files and occasionally go undercover to the meetings of target groups among other things he told san francisco authorities the los angeles adl office kept a record of any arab american who had anti israel leanings or who wrote a letter to a newspaper expressing such sentiment gurvitz was recently forced to resign after an incident in which he attempted to misuse the adl intelligence network to seek revenge on a rival who got a job gurvitz wanted at the simon wiesenthal center for holocaust studies gurvitz got confidential police data on the rival and threatened to expose him as a jewish spy to a right wing hate group gurvitz has since begun cooperating with police and the fbi in the probe providing considerable information about the adl operation unlike bullock he has been assured he is not a subject of the investigation gurvitz declined through his father in los angeles to be interviewed by the times bullock s attorney said his client would not comment yigal arens usc isi tv made me do it arens isi edu
talk.politics.mideast	kol israel broacasts does anyone have a schedule of kol israel broadcasts in different languages that could be posted or e mailed to me your assistance would be greatly appreciated gf
talk.politics.mideast	re zionism is racism in apr ifi uio no michaelp ifi uio no michael schalom preminger wrote in article apr vm mcgill ca b ha b ha musicb mcgill ca writes in re syria s expansion the author writes that the un thought zionism was racism and that they were wrong they were correct the first time zionism is racism and thankfully the mcgill daily the student newspaper at mcgill was proud enough to print an article saying so if you want a copy send me mail was the article about zionism or about something else the majority of people i heard emitting this ignorant statement do not really know what zionism is they have just associated it with what they think they know about the political situation in the middle east so steve lets here what is zionism assuming that you mean hear you weren t listening he just told you zionism is racism this is a tautological statement d c sessions speaking for myself note new network address dcs witsend tnet com author and everything else of tmail dos mail news shell
talk.politics.mideast	re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes in article apr kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes in article apr iastate edu oyalcin iastate edu onur yalcin writes oy deleted oy oy if you are really interested i can provide you with a number of references oy on the issue just send me email for that you think i am that stupid to ask you for references not i have many greek friends that i could ask for the info if i needed i have already read many articles and do not need your help boy how generous there is a very narrow margin of stupidity between accepting my references and those of the greeks and you just said you d rather do the latter that s fine with me i was sincere in my offer but this saves me the effort it doesn t take a half brained man to go to any library and check out a bunch of sources of decent objectivity just ask a good friend for help stay on these roads onur yalcin onur yalcin oyalcin iastate edu un punto in piu
talk.politics.mideast	re nazi eugenic theories circulated by in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes ps my proposal has nothing to do with nazi eugenics it has to do with the search for peace which would enable justice i don t consider that justice is done when non jews who fled or were expelled in are not permitted to return to their homeland how about jews who were expelled from their homelands in iraq syria jordan algeria etc don t they deserve justice too this can at best be called pragmatism a nice word for legitimizing the rule of the strong it can never be called justice why is your criticism always directed against israel but never against the arab states even when they are so much more guilty of the accusations you make is it because you now call yourself a palestinean and peace without justice will never be peace this is why the land for peace formula is so foolish land for land or peace for peace seems much more just except that it would cost the arabs something and so is not under consideration let s not forget that about half of israel s population are refugees from arab countries somehow their land now being occupied by arab states and their homes now being lived in by arab people are not included in any negotiations is this your prescription for peace it is my conviction that the situation in which a state through the law attempts to discourage mixed marriages as israel does is not normal such a state resembles more nazi germany and south africa than western democracies such as the united states in which jews are free to marry whom they wish and do so in the thousands again you ve somehow managed to overlook the fact that the arab states are much more restrictive on these points in fact the officially judenrein policies of almost all of the arab states makes them resemble nazi germany chillingly closely american jews enjoy this fact and would not love to live in a state termed christian state and to have their green cards stamped with a mark jew there are many states in which christians can live happily many which have official religions and christian majorities and christian based laws there are some dozen arab and islamic states there is only one jewish state do you have a problem with this is this one jewish state too many there are others who might agree with you you know i would ask those who are genuinely interested in an exchange of views and personal experiencces to refrain from emotional infantile outbursts which might leed readers to infer that jews who respect judaism are uncivilized such behaviour is not good for judaism have you just arrived on tpm recently again the supporters of the arab and islamic camps are frequently and massively guilty of emotional infantile outbursts which have weakened their positions dramatically somehow your criticisms are very one sided and simple minded p s how s the fund coming along jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	re ten questions about israel in article arens apr grl isi edu arens isi edu yigal arens writes at issue was not a trial behind closed doors but arrest trial and imprisonment in complete secrecy this was appraently attempted in the case of vanunu and failed it has happened before and there is reason to believe it still goes on the lengthy article you quote doesn t imply this it only states that it is somehow possible not that it is in any way likely this is akin to an article saying that it is possible that the usaf has several captured ufos without supporting the liklihood of such an assertion read this from ma ariv february possibly publication ban by baruch me iri all those involved in this matter politely refused my request one way or another look the subject is too delicate if i comment on it i will be implicitly admitting that it is true if i mention a specific case even hint at it i might be guilty of making public something which may legally not be published in other words they were telling a pesky reporter to keep guessing israel maintains this same attitude about nuclear weapons it may or may not have the us maintains the same attitude about the presence of nuclear weapons on specific naval craft by refusing to acknowledge the existence of such weapons on specific ships us warships have i believe become unwelcome in new zealand which has declared itself a nuclear free zone the state of israel has never officially admitted that for many years there have been in its prisons israeli citizens who were sentenced to long prison terms without either the fact of their arrest or the crimes of which they were accused ever being made public more precisely a court ordered publication ban was placed on the fact of their arrest and later on their imprisonment the usaf has never officially admitted to having any ufos either in israel of citizens are imprisoned without us the citizens of this country knowing anything about it not knowing anything about the fact that one person or another were tried and thrown in prison for security offenses in complete secrecy this is stated as a fact without supporting evidence it would ve been more convincing if your reporter had come up with just one name of someone who is sitting in jail lost to the world as he suggests maybe elvis or jfk somebody let s put it this way if israel has put people away without publicizing their arrests or the legal proceedings against them how has their disappearance been explained people have relatives friends and colleagues you know israel is not known as a place where people are made to vanish would you care to give us a list of people whose whereabouts are unknown people who are presumed to be imprisoned this whole conspiracy story isn t something that we ve come to associate with yigal arens before perhaps from now on we should jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	re the republic of turkey sold tones of armenian bones in dbd urartu sdpa org david davidian writes on the th commemorative anniversary of the turkish genocide of the armenians we remember those whose only crime was to be armenian in the shadow of an emerging turkish proto fascist state in their names we demand justice in april the turkish government began a systematically executed de population of the eastern anatolian homeland of the armenians through a genocidal extermination this genocide was to insure that turks exclusively ruled over the geographic area today called the republic of turkey the result million murdered billion dollars of armenian property stolen and plundered this genocide ended nearly years of armenian civilization on those lands today the turkish government continues to scrape clean any vestige of a prior armenian existence on those lands today s turkish governmental policy is to re write the history of the era to manufacture distortion and generate excuses for their genocide of the armenian people in the face of refutation ad nauseam the turkish historical society and cronies shamelessly continue to deny that any such genocide occurred this policy merely demonstrates that in the modern era genocide is an effective state policy when it remains un redressed and un punished a crime unpunished is a crime encouraged adolf hitler took this cue less than years after the successful genocide of the armenians armenians demand justice ermeniler adalet istiyor david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org armenia has not learned a lesson in s d p a center for regional studies anatolia and has forgotten the p o box punishment inflicted on it cambridge ma late turkish president turgut ozal to which i say hear hear motion seconded hovig hovig heghinian university of illinois at urbana champaign department of computer science
talk.politics.mideast	re israel s expansion ii i understand how israel captured the teritory and feels that it is its right to annex it i can t fully understand why it has to deal with palestinians much the same way jews were treated before the holocaust the final solution by hitler what i totally don t get is why the u s has to subsidize the existance of such a thorough abuser of human rights just wondering
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli terrorism well i m not sure about the story nad it did seem biased what i disagree with is your statement that the u s media is out to ruin israels reputation that is rediculous the u s media is the most pro israeli media in the world having lived in europe i realize that incidences such as the one described in the letter have occured the u s media as a whole seem to try to ignore them the u s is subsidizing israels existance and the europeans are not at least not to the same degree so i think that might be a reason they report more clearly on the atrocities what is a shame is that in austria daily reports of the inhuman acts commited by israeli soldiers and the blessing received from the government makes some of the holocaust guilt go away after all look how the jews are treating other races when they got power it is unfortunate
talk.politics.mideast	re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes armenia does not have pot to piss in it let alone shooting down modern war planes
talk.politics.mideast	re kh news i wrote from kayhan havai o dr namaki deputy minister of health stated that infant mortality under one year old in iran went down from per thousand before the revolution to per thousand at the end of last month o dr namaki also stated that before the revolution only f children received vaccinations to protect them from various deseases but this figure reached at the end of something funny happens to the percent sign in paragraph above the vaccination rate went from percent to percent farzin
talk.politics.mideast	pbs frontline iran and the bomb i would like to share with netters a few points i picked up from the pbs frontline program regarding iran s nuclear activities aired on tuesday april for the sake of brevity i ll present them in some separate points as many other western programs this program was laid on a bed of misinformation throughout the program to maximize the effect of the program on the viewer some of the misinformations were as follows it was alleged that late imam khomeini objected to shah s technological advancements as anti islamic but now things have changed and the proof of change is that some iranian merchants are now selling personal computers these are the most ridiculous lies one can make about the objectives of the islamic revolution in toppling the shah and state of the technology in iran after revolution iran was equally accused of using chemical weapons against iraqi aggressors while there has never been any proof in this regard and nobody has seen iraqi soldiers or civilians injured by iranian chemical weapons in contrary to what the whole world has seen about iranian soldiers and civilians injured by iraqi chemical weapons while the number of martyrs during the sacred defense against iraqi aggression has been officially announced to be about and even most radical counter revolutionary groups claim that iran and iraq had a total of one million dead this program claims that iran alone has one million dead left from the war the translation of iranian officials talks are not true for example when iranian head of atomic energy says that it hurts me to see that iran is the subject of these unfriendly propaganda the translator says it hurts to see that iran is doing unfriendly research almost all alleged devices or material bought or planned to be bought by iranians were of countless dual usage while the program tries to undermine their non military uses without any reference to iran s big population and its inevitable need to other sources of energy in near future and its current deficit in electrical power the whole program is trying to show the sharif university of technology as a nuclear research center while even the cameramen of the program know well that in a country like iran without a so tightly closed society no one can make a nuclear bomb in a university taking in account the scientific advancement of sharif u in engineering fields and its potential role in improvement of iran s industries and eventually the lives of people it is obvious that they are persuading other countries to prevent them from further helping this university or other ones in scientific and industrial efforts a key point in program s justifications is trying to disvalidate as much as possible all efforts done by iaea in their numerous visits from iran s different sites they say we are not sure if the places visited by iaea are the real ones or not or we can not rely on iaea s reports and observation because they failed to see iraq s nuclear activities before as if they didn t know that iraq was trying to build nuclear weapons as an extremely personal opinion the most disgusting aspect of the program was the arrogance of the member of us senate foreign affairs william triplet in his way of talking as if he was the god talking from the absolute knowledge i hope all iranians be aware of the gradual buildup against their country in western media and i hope iranian authorities continue to their wise and calculated approach with regard to international affairs and peaceful coexistence with friendly nations mohammad international atomic energy agency
talk.politics.mideast	re deir yassin in article r f ge morrow stanford edu as vxf forsythe stanford edu vic filler writes in article apr cs rit edu bdm cs rit edu brendan d mckay writes i have previously posted quotations by irgun participants that totally destroys begin s whitewash i have no particular desire to post it yet again brendan normally bdm cs anu edu au you apparently think you are some sort of one man judge and jury who so what are you can declare total victory and then sit back and enjoy the applause but you ve picked the wrong topic if you think a few rigged quotations can sustain the legend and lie of the deir yassin massacre i don t think that you are just making noise you have a lot to learn when it comes to historical methodology that s true i try to learn from people who know more than me not from useless farts at the most basic level you should know that there is a big difference between weighing evidence fairly and merely finding quotations that support your preset opinions of course i have said that more times in this group than anyone else i d think if you have studied the history of israel at all you must know that many of the sources of your quotations have an axe to grind and therefore you must be very careful about whom you quote for quite true that s why i am so careful in selecting quotes example meir pa il whom you cite was indeed a general a scholar and a war hero but that doesn t mean everything that comes out of his mouth is gold in fact and here your lack of experience shows pa il is such a fanatic embittered leftist that much of his oh bullshit fanatic my bum prove your blah or cork it anti israel blathering forget about anti irgun blathering would be considered something like treason in non israel contexts but of course you don t consider this at all when you find a juicy quotation that you can use to attack israel how would you know what i consider read my mind benny morris of hashomer hatzair represents himself as a scholar when he rehashes the old attacks on the irgun don t be fooled it s just the old zionist ideological catfight surfacing as an attack on the then likud government if you will look closely at the section on deir yassin in his book on the war of independence you will see his indictment to be pure hot air and this is the best he can do after decades of digging for any sort of damning evidence unfortunately for him because his book parades itself as scholarly he is forced to put footnotes so you can clearly see that his deir yassin account is based on nothing i looked very closely at a large number of sources you have no idea what you are talking about the deir yassin massacre never took place as the propagandists tell it any more than the sabra and shatila massacres do you get that s true about the accounts of both irgun and arab propagandists like begin for example the feeling people like to blame the jews for massacres even if no i never got that feeling i got rather opposite feelings about people like you though they have to make them up it must sound spicy even some jews like to do it for reasons of their own honesty perhaps you would explain the testimony from members of the irgun to be found in their own handwriting in the irgun archives in tel aviv that the wounded arabs were killed that a group of prisoners was massacred that lehi proposed exterminating everybody at the pre raid meeting exactly what reasons can you propose that this testimony should be rejected in favour of begin s please don t confuse any of you deir yassin massacre stuff with facts or scholarship you should stick to begin s version unless you find something serious to contradict it this is very funny you carried on about unsupported evidence propagandists axes to grind and you end up telling us to stick to the account of the leader of the alleged killers you are obviously a hopeless case as everyone can plainly see vic brendan
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli terrorism ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes well i m not sure about the story nad it did seem biased what i disagree with is your statement that the u s media is out to ruin israels reputation that is rediculous the u s media is the most pro israeli media in the world having lived in europe i realize that incidences such as the one described in the letter have occured the u s media as a whole seem to try to ignore them the u s is subsidizing israels existance and the europeans are not at least not to the same degree so i think that might be a reason they report more clearly on the atrocities what is a shame is that in austria daily reports of the inhuman acts commited by israeli soldiers and the blessing received from the government makes some of the holocaust guilt go away after all look how the jews are treating other races when they got power it is unfortunate well said mr beyer cl cleveland freenet edu h a m z a foo i e most foo
talk.politics.mideast	re remember those names come election time in article c u qi mz apollo hp com nelson p apollo hp com peter nelson writes btw with bosnia s large moslem population why have nations like turkey saudi arabia syria egypt and others with either money or strong military forces not spoken out more forcibly or offered to help out bosnia obviously you really don t know they have spoken out cf sec y of state christopher s recent trip to the me they have provided millions in aid and they have participated in the airlifts to sarajevo they would supply military aid if the un would lift the embargo on arms sales the turkish ambassador has ocassionally said a thing or two but that s all i see no great enthusism from any of those places to get their hands dirty why does the us always get stuck with this stuff see above kuwait has directly participated in the airlift of food to sarajevo besides there s no case that can be made for us military involvement there that doesn t apply equally well to say liberia angola or it appears with the khmer rouge s new campaign cambodia non whites don t count hmm some might say kuwaitis are non white ooops i forgot kuwaitis are oil rich loaded with petro dollars etc so they don t count peter
talk.politics.mideast	re remember those names come election time i said in article c u qi mz apollo hp com nelson p apollo hp com peter nelson writes besides there s no case that can be made for us military involvement there that doesn t apply equally well to say liberia angola or it appears with the khmer rouge s new campaign cambodia non whites don t count hmm some might say kuwaitis are non white ooops i forgot kuwaitis are oil rich loaded with petro dollars etc so they don t count and let s not forget somalia which is about as far from white as it gets that s two in a row care to try for more
talk.politics.mideast	re final solution for gaza in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes from center for policy research cpr subject final solution for gaza while israeli jews fete the uprising of the warsaw ghetto fete since this word both formally and commonly refers to positive joyous events your misuse of it here is rather unsettling they repress by violent means the uprising of the gaza ghetto and attempt to starve the gazans i certainly abhor those israeli policies and attitudes that are abusive towards the palestinians gazans given that however there is no comparison between the reality of the warsaw ghetto and in gaza the right of the gazan population to resist occupation is recognized in international law and by any person with a sense of justice just as international law recognizes the right of the occupying entity to maintain order especially in the face of elements that are consciously attempting to disrupt the civil structure ironically international law recognizes each of these focusses that of the occupied and the occupier even though they are inherently in conflict as israel denies gazans the only two options which are compatible with basic human rights and international law that of becoming israeli citizens with full rights or respecting their right for self determination it must be concluded that the israeli jewish society does not consider gazans full human beings israel certainly cannot and should not continue its present policies towards gazan residents there is however a third alternative the creation and implementation of a jewish dhimmi system with gazans palestinians as benignly protected citizens would you find that as acceptable in that form as you do with regard to islam s policies towards its minorities whether they have some final solution up their sleeve it is a race then between israel s anti palestinian gazan final solution and the arab world s anti israel jewish final solution do you favor one neither i urge all those who have slight human compassion to do whatever they can to help the gazans regain their full human civil and political rights to which they are entitled as human beings since there is justifiable worry by various parties that israel and arab palestinian final solution intentions exist isn t it important that both israeli and palestinian gazan rights be secured elias davidsson iceland tim clock ph d graduate student uci tel department of politics and society fax university of california irvine home tel irvine ca
talk.politics.mideast	re legality of the jewish purchase in article apr bnr ca zbib bnr ca writes amir y rosenblatt writes sam zbib writes no one in his right mind would sell his freedom and dignity palestinians are no exception perhaps you heard about anti trust in the business world since we are debating the legality of a commercial transaction we must use the laws governing the guidelines and ethics of such transactions basic anti trust law says that while you can purchase ibm stocks for the purpose of investing you can not acquire a large number of those shares with the intent or controlling ibm you can do so only if you make your intentions clear apriori clearly the jews who purchased properties from palastenians had some designs they were not buying a dwelling or a real estate they were establishing a bridgehead for the european jews the palastenians sold their properties to the jews in the old tradition of arab hospitality being a multi ethnic multi religious society accepting the jews as neighbours was no different just another religion plus they paid fair market value etc they did not know they were victims of an international conspiracy i m not a conspiracy theorist myself but this one is hard to dismiss right now i m just going to address this point when the jewish national fund bought most of its land it didn t buy it from the palestinians themselves because for the most part they were tenant farmers fallahin living on land owned by wealthy arabs in syria and lebanon the jnf offered a premium deal so the owners took advantage of it it s called commerce the owners however made no provisions for those who had worked for them basically shafting them by selling the land right out from under them they are to blame not the jews amir why would you categorize the sale of land as shafting was it because it was sold to jews was it fair to assume that the fallahin would be mistreated by the jews is this the norm of any commerce read shafting between arabs and jews it was shafting on the part of the arab land owners for doing it without notifying their tenant farmers and for not being responsible enough to make provisions for them but rather just leaving them to their fate your claim that the lebanese syrian landlords sold palestine if true even partially omits the fact that the mandate treaty put lebanon and syria under french rule while palestine under british obiviously any such landlord would have found himself a foreigner in palestine and would be motivated to sell regardless of the price the point is that the land was sold legally often at prices above its actual value it was legal and good business for the sellers though it left the palestinians who worked the land in a poor situation it is interesting though that you acknowledge that the palestinians were shafted do many israelis or jews share your opinion do you absolve the purchaser from any ethical commitments just because it wasn t written down i don t know if others share this opinion it is mine and i m sure there are some who agree and some who don t the way i see it the fallahin were caught in circumstances beyond their control in that since they didn t own the land they didn t have a say of course now for the sake of the greater arab unity the arabs are angry that the land was sold to the jews an act that is illegal in jordan but when it happened it was just business all told i did not see an answer in your response the question was whether the intent behind the purchase was aimed at controlling the public assets land infra structure etc imho the palestinians have grounds to contest the legality of the purchase say in world court sam my opinions are my own and no one else s the purpose of buying the land was to provide space and jobs for jewish immigrants in any case no matter what the purpose the sales were legal so i really don t see any grounds for contesting them amir
talk.politics.mideast	re the u s holocaust memorial museum a costly dgannon techbook techbook com dan gannon writes gannon why don t you tell the readers of these newsgroups how you hail nazism on your bbs and post long articles claiming non whites are inferior the u s holocaust memorial museum a costly and dangerous mistake the museum is entirely funded by private donations but don t expect this fact to deter maynard btw gannon s ideological fathers also had a passion for constructing museums and collections some of which served to educate the public about the racial supremacy of the aryans one such collection was that of skeletons and there was no lack of these around letter from ss standartenfuehrer sievers to ss obersturmbannfuehrer dr brandt november trial of the major war criminals p dear comarade brandt as you know the reichsfuehrer ss has directed that ss hauptsturmfuehrer prof dr hirt be supplied with everything needed for his research work for certain anthropological researches i already reported to the reichsfuehrer ss on them skeletons of prisoners or rather jews are required which are to be supplied by the kl auschwitz however the good doctor needed some more items to complete his research testimony of magnus wochner ss guard at the natzweiler concentration camp the natzweiler trial edited by anthony m webb p i recall particularly one mass execution when about prisoners men and women all jews were killed by gassing this took place as far as i can remember in spring in this case the corpses were sent to professor hirt of the department of anatomy in strasbourg danny keren
talk.politics.mideast	re why does us consider yigal arens to be a dangerous to humanity in article bimacs bitnet ehrlich bimacs bitnet gideon ehrlich writes in article arens apr grl isi edu arens isi edu yigal arens writes los angeles times tuesday april p a the problem if transffering us government files about yigal arens and some other similar persons does or does not violate a federal or a local american law seemed to belong to some local american law forum not to this forum the readers of this forum seemed to be more interested in the contents of those files so it will be nice if yigal will tell us why do american authorities consider yigal arens to be dangerous i m not aware that the us government considers me dangerous in any case that has nothing to do with the current case the claim against the adl is that it illegally obtained and disseminated information that was gathered by state and or federal agencies in the course of their standard interaction with citizens such as myself by that i refer to things such as address and phone number vehicle registration and license information photographs etc why does the adl have an interest in that person you should ask the adl if you want an authoritative answer my guess is that they collected information on anyone who did or might engage in political criticism of israel i further believe that they did this as agents of the israeli government or at least in agreement with them at least some of the information collected by the adl was passed on to israeli officials in some cases it was used to influence or attempt to influence people s access to jobs or public forums these matters will be brought out as the court case unfolds since california law entitles people to compensation if such actions can be proven as my previous posting shows california law entitles people to compensation even in the absence of any specific consequences just for the further dissemination of certain types of private information about them yigal arens usc isi tv made me do it arens isi edu
talk.politics.mideast	re ten questions about israel in article apr vms huji ac il backon vms huji ac il writes in article igc apc org cpr igc apc org center for policy research writes is it true that in israeli prisons there are a number of individuals which were tried in secret and for which their identities the date of their trial and their imprisonment are state secrets apart from mordechai vanunu who had a trial behind closed doors there was one other espionage case the nutty professor at the nes ziona biological institute who was a k g b mole who was tried in camera i wouldn t exactly call it a state secret the trial was simply tried behind closed doors i hate to disappoint you but the united states has tried a number of espionage cases in camera at issue was not a trial behind closed doors but arrest trial and imprisonment in complete secrecy this was appraently attempted in the case of vanunu and failed it has happened before and there is reason to believe it still goes on read this from ma ariv february possibly publication ban the state of israel has never officially admitted that for many years there have been in its prisons israeli citizens who were sentenced to long prison terms without either the fact of their arrest or the crimes of which they were accused ever being made public by baruch me iri all those involved in this matter politely refused my request one way or another look the subject is too delicate if i comment on it i will be implicitly admitting that it is true if i mention a specific case even hint at it i might be guilty of making public something which may legally not be published the state of israel has never officially admitted that for many years there have been in its prisons israeli citizens who were sentenced to long prison terms without either the fact of their arrest or the crimes of which they were accused ever being made public more precisely a court ordered publication ban was placed on the fact of their arrest and later on their imprisonment in israel of citizens are imprisoned without us the citizens of this country knowing anything about it not knowing anything about the fact that one person or another were tried and thrown in prison for security offenses in complete secrecy in the distant past for example during the days of the lavon ya affair we heard about the third man being in prison but many years have passed since then and what existed then can today no longer be found even in south american countries or in the former communist countries but it appears that this is still possible in israel of the chair of the knesset committee on law the constitution and justice mk david zucker sent a letter on this subject early this week to the prime minister the minister of justice and the cabinet legal advisor ma ariv has obtained the content of the letter during the past several years a number of israeli citizens have been imprisoned for various periods for security offenses in some of these cases a legal publication ban was imposed not only on the specifics of the crimes for which the prisoners were convicted but even on the mere fact of their imprisonment in those cases after being legally convicted the prisoners spend their term in prison without public awareness either of the imprisonment or of the prisoner asserts mk zucker on the other hand zucker agrees in his letter that there is absolutely no question that it is possible and in some cases it is imperative that a publication ban be imposed on the specifics of security offenses and the course of trials but even in such cases the court must weigh carefully and deliberately the circumstances under which a trial will not be held in public however one must ask whether the imposition of a publication ban on the mere fact of a person s arrest and on the name of a person sentenced to prison is justified and appropriate in the state of israel the principle of public trial and the right of the public to know are not consistent with the disappearance of a person from public sight and his descent into the abyss of prison zucker thus decided to turn to the prime minister the minister of justice and the cabinet legal advisor and request that they consider the question the state of israel is strong enough to withstand the cost incurred by abiding by the principle of public punishment the state of israel cannot be allowed to have prisoners whose detention and its cause is kept secret wrote zucker the legal counsel of the civil rights union attorney mordechai shiffman said that we as the civil rights union do not know of any cases of security prisoners citizens of israel who are imprisoned and whose imprisonment cannot be made public this is a situation which if it actually exists is definitely unhealthy just like censorship is an unhealthy matter the union is aware says shiffman of cases where notification of a suspect s arrest to family members and lawyers is withheld i am speaking only of several days i know also of cases where a detainee was not allowed to meet with an attorney sometimes for the whole first month of arrest that is done because of the great secrecy the suspect himself his family his lawyer or even a journalist can challenge the publication ban in court but there are cases where the family members themselves are not interested in publicity the journalist knows nothing of the arrest and so almost everyone is happy attorney yossi arnon an official of the bar claims that given the laws as they exist in israel today a situation where the arrest of a person for security offenses is kept secret is definitely possible nothing is easier the court orders a publication ban and that s that someone who has committed security offenses can spend long years in prison without us knowing anything about it do you find this situation acceptable attorney arnon definitely not we live in a democratic country and such a state of affairs is impermissible i am well aware that publication can be damaging from the standpoint of security but total non publication silence is unacceptable consider the trial of mordechai vanunu at least in his case we know that he was charged with aggravated espionage and sentenced to years in prison the trial was held behind closed doors nobody knew the details except for those who were authorized to it is somehow possible to understand though not to accept the reasons but as i have noted we at least are aware of his imprisonment why is the matter actually that serious can t we trust the discretion of the court attorney arnon the judges have no choice but to trust the presentations made to them the judges do not have the tools to investigate this gives the government enormous power power which they can misuse and what if there really is a security issue attorney arnon i am a man of the legal system not a security expert democracy stands in opposition to security i believe it is possible to publicize the matter of the arrest and the charges without entering into detail we have already seen how the laws concerning publication bans can be misused in the case of the rachel heller murder a suspect in the murder was held for many months without the matter being made public attorney shiffman on the other hand believes that state security can be a legitimate reason for prohibiting publication of a suspect s arrest or of a convicted criminal s imprisonment a healthy situation definitely not but i am aware of the fact that mere publication may be harmful to state security a different opinion is expressed by attorney uri shtendal former advisor for arab affairs to prime ministers levi eshkol and golda meir clearly we are speaking of isolated special cases such situations contrast with the principle that a judicial proceeding must be held in public no doubt this contradicts the principle of freedom of expression definitely also to the principle of individual freedom which is also harmed by the prohibition of publication nevertheless adds shtendal the legislator allowed for the possibility of such a ban to accommodate special cases where the damage possible as a consequence of publication is greater than that which may follow from an abridgment of the principles i ve mentioned the authority to decide such matters of publication does not rest with the prime minister or the security services but with the court which we may rest assured will authorize a publication ban only if it has been convinced of its need beyond a shadow of a doubt nevertheless attorney shtendal agrees as a rule clearly such a phenomenon is undesirable such an extreme step must be taken only in the most extreme circumstances yigal arens usc isi tv made me do it arens isi edu
talk.politics.mideast	re unconventional peace proposal in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes from center for policy research cpr subject unconventional peace proposal a unconventional proposal for peace in the middle east by elias davidsson having stated my assumptions i will now state my proposal a fund should be established which would disburse grants for each child born to a couple where one partner is israeli jew and the other palestinian arab the emergence of a considerable number of mixed marriages in israel palestine all of whom would have relatives on both sides of the divide would make the conflict lose its ethnical and unsoluble core and strengthen the emergence of a truly civil society the existence of a strong mixed stock of people would also help the integration of israeli society into the sounds just like a racial theory that hitler outlined in mein kampf elias davidsson post box reykjavik iceland disclaimer opinions expressed are mine not my employer s
talk.politics.mideast	re bb confessions in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu ahmeda mcrcim mcgill edu ahmed abu abed writes but the irony is that the jewish population has no problem in electing a leader who has confessed to having an extra marrital affair this is a first aa the american people didn t have any problem with it too clinton actually i think that it does not make any difference as long as they have the qualifications to become leaders btw in my political view i hope and should be the arab hope too that binyamin netanyahu will not be ellected as prime minister of israel naftaly naftaly stramer intergraph electronics internet nstramer dazixco ingr com lookout road suite a voice fax boulder co quality is everybody s job and it s everybody s job to watch all that they can
talk.politics.mideast	re public service translation no in article hydra gatech edu gt a prism gatech edu gt a gt a kaan timucin wrote kaan who the hell is this guy david davidian i think he talks too much i am your alter ego kaan yo david you would better shut the f up o k no its not ok what are you going to do come and get me kaan i don t like your attitute you are full of lies and shit in the united states we refer to it as freedom of speech if you don t like what i write either prove me wrong shut up or simply fade away kaan didn t you hear the saying don t mess with a turc no why do you ask what are you going to do are you going to submit me to bodily harm are you going to kill me are you going to torture me kaan see ya in hell wrong again kaan timucin all i did was to translate a few lines from turkish into english if it was so embarrassing in turkish it shouldn t have been written in the first place don t kill the messenger david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
talk.politics.mideast	hamas methods of murder if anyone gets the new york times the edit page has a transcript of a vhs from hams describing their methods of torture and execution i will post it later on
talk.politics.mideast	legality of the jewish purchase was re israeli expansion lust adam shostack writes sam zbib writes i m surprised that you don t consider the acquisition of land by the jews from arabs for the purpose of establishing an exclusive state as a hostile action leading to war it was for the purpose of establishing a state not an exclusive state if the state was to be exclusive it would not have arab citizens could you please tell me what was the ethnic composition of israel right after it was formed and no i do not consider the purchase of land a hostile action when someone wants to buy land and someone else is willing to sell it at a mutually agreeable price then that is commerce it is not a hostile action leading to war no one in his right mind would sell his freedom and dignity palestinians are no exception perhaps you heard about anti trust in the business world since we are debating the legality of a commercial transaction we must use the laws governing the guidelines and ethics of such transactions basic anti trust law says that while you can purchase ibm stocks for the purpose of investing you can not acquire a large number of those shares with the intent or controlling ibm you can do so only if you make your intentions clear apriori clearly the jews who purchased properties from palastenians had some designs they were not buying a dwelling or a real estate they were establishing a bridgehead for the european jews the palastenians sold their properties to the jews in the old tradition of arab hospitality being a multi ethnic multi religious society accepting the jews as neighbours was no different just another religion plus they paid fair market value etc they did not know they were victims of an international conspiracy i m not a conspiracy theorist myself but this one is hard to dismiss as to whether the jews wanted to live in peace maybe however they wanted and still want an exclusively jewish state where jews are in control and jews are the masters of the land living in peace is meaningless unless it means living with someone else as equal for a native arab this does not leave many options oh you mean like both jews and arabs being citizens the arabs who stayed are now citizens with as much right to choose who they vote for as the jews again adam the devil is in the details i don t want to get on a tangent here but its the same reasonning that says its ok to return deportes and leave the rest because is a nice number that you can devide by and besides it has an integer square root those palestinians who stayed actually stayed despite of what happened and their number was somewhat tolerated as a defenseless and ineffective minority if i were wrong you d have israel recall all the palestinian refugees we re talking millions after all they are civilians huh the people who left did so voluntarily there is no reason for israel to let them in do you actually believe this my experience tells me that every palestinian i knew still keeps the key to his home in palestine besides they often refer to their exodus as an escape from hell so to speak i know none that agrees with you did you sample their opinions i know you don t care just being rethorical israel gave citizenship to the remaining arabs because it had to maintain a democratic facade to keep the western aid flowing israel got no western aid in nor in or it still granted citizenship to those arabs who remained and how is granting citizenship a facade don t get me wrong i beleive that israel is democratic within the constraints of one dominant ethnic group jews israel probably had a few options after ethnic cleansing serbian style and deserve the wrath of the international community or make the best out of a no win condition show the world how good israel is towards the bad arabs personaly i ve never heard anything about the arab community in isreal except that they re there so yes they re there but as a community with history and roots its dead tell me something sam what makes land arab how shall i explain its a contract between the man and the land control isn t it the ottomans ruled years and then left with barely a trace the concept of land identity is somewhat foreign to the mobile and pragmatic west it is partly the concept of le sol natal native soil i know that jews had previous history in the region but none in recent memory i m talking everyday life not archeology try again you tell me what its isn t but you fail to establish what it is also jews did have history in israel for over a thousand years there were lots of jews slaughtered by crusaders in israel there was a thriving community in gaza city from roughly jews were a majority in jerusalem from or so onwards does that make the land jewish i stand corrected i meant that the jewish culture was not predominant in palestine in recent history i have no problem with jerusalem having a jewish character if it were predominantly jewish so there what to make of the rest palestine adam shostack adam das harvard edu sam zbib bell northern research bitnet internet zbib bnr ca voice fax surface mail stop p o box station c ottawa canada k y h my opinions are my own and no one else s
talk.politics.mideast	armenian admission to the crime of turkish genocide source men are like that by leonard ramsden hartill the bobbs merrill company indianapolis pages memoirs of an armenian officer who participated in the genocide of million muslim people p first paragraph the tartar section of the town no longer existed except as a pile of ruins it had been destroyed and its inhabitants slaughtered the same fate befell the tartar section of khankandi p third paragraph the city was a scene of confusion and terror during the early days of the war when the russian troops invaded turkey large numbers of the turkish population abandoned their homes and fled before the russian advance p first paragraph the tartar villages were in ruins serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	armenian slaughter of more than kurdish people in source hassan arfa the kurds london pp when the russian armies invaded turkey after the sarikamish disaster of their columns were preceded by battalions of irregular armenian volunteers both from the caucasus and from turkey one of these was commanded by a certain andranik a blood thirsty adventurer these armenian volunteers committed all kinds of excesses more than six hundred thousand kurds being killed between and in the eastern vilayets of turkey serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	their eyes gouged out by fascist armenians armenian barbarism atrocity reports horrify azerbaijan azeri officials who returned from the seen to this town about nine miles away brought back three dead children the backs of their heads blown off women and children had been scalped said assad faradzev an aide to karabagh s azeri governor azeri television showed pictures of one truckload of bodies brought to the azeri town of agdam some with their faces apparently scratched with knives or their eyes gouged out brian killen reuters the washington times killings rife in nagorno karabagh moldova journalists in the area reported seeing dozens of corpses including some of the civilians and azerbaijani officials said armenians began shooting at them when they sought to recover the bodies fred hiatt the washington post serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	the armenians were fascist historical armenian fascism the armenians were deeply anti semitic as well in the may edition of hairenik weekly the vice mayor of bucharest rumania is quoted as saying the armenians helped us not to become the slaves of the jewish elements in our country in another edition an author named captain george haig writes and the type of jew who is imported to palestine is not anything to be proud about their loose morals and other vices were unknown to the arabs prior to balfour declaration on top of all communist activities were the cause of most of the arab criticism as uzun exposed the armenians were fascist before pearl harbor the dashnak daily hairenik not to be confused with the tzeghagrons hairenik weekly expressed pro nazi sentiments and came adolf hitler after herculean struggles he spoke to the racial heart strings of the german opened the fountain of his national genius strock down the spirit of defeatism at no period since the world war had berlin conducted so realistic well organized and planned policy as now since hitler s assumption to power and whatever others may think concerning hitlerism and fascism as a system of government it is proved that they have revitalized and regenerated the two states germany and italy captain george haig the case of palestine in hairenik weekly friday september hairenik official organ of the dashnaktsuitune sept quoted in john roy carlson the armenian displaced persons see endnote p serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re was go hezbollah in article apr ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu brad hernlem writes in article bce news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes are you suggesting that when guerillas use the population for cover israel should totally back down so the easiest way to get away with attacking another is to use an innocent as a shield and hope that the other respects innocent lives tell me tim what are these guerillas doing wrong assuming that they are using civilians for cover assuming also come on brad if we are going to get anywhere in this or any discussion it doesn t help to bring up elements i never addressed nor commented on in any way i made no comment on who is right or who is wrong only that civilians are being used as cover and that having been placed in between the israelis and the guerillas they will be injured as both parties continue their fight the purpose of an army s use of military uniforms is to set its members apart from the civilians so that civilians will not be thought of by the other side as combatants so what do you think is the meaning behind the intention and the effect when an army purposely does not were uniforms but goes out of its way to look like civilians they are judging that the benefit they will receive from this cover is more important that the harm that will come to civilians this is a comment on the israeli experience and is saying that the guerillas do have some responsibility in putting civilians in the middle of this fight by putting on uniforms and living apart from civilians barracks etc the guerillas would significantly lower the risk to civilians but if the guerillas do this aren t they putting themselves at greater risk absolutely they ask themselves why set ourselves apart by wearing uniforms when there is a ready made cover for us civilians that makes sense from their point of view but when this cover is used the guerillas should accept some of the responsibility for subsequent harm to civilians if the buffer zone is to prevent attacks on israel is it not working why is it further neccessary for israeli guns to pound lebanese villages why not just kill those who try to infiltrate the buffer zone you see there is more to the shelling of the villages it is called retaliation getting back getting even it doesn t make sense to shell the villages the least it shows is a reckless disregard by the israeli government for the lives of civilians i agree with you here i have always thought that israel s bombing sortees and bombing policy is stupid thoughtless inhumane and ineffective but there is no reason that israel should passive wait until attackers chose to act there is every reason to believe that taking the fight to the enemy will do more to stop attacks as i said previously israel spent several decades sitting passively on its side of a border and only acting to stop these attacks after the attackers had entered israeli territory it didn t work very well the host arab state did little nothing to try and stop these attacks from its side of the border with israel so the number of attacks were considerably higher as was their physical and psychological impact on the civilians caught in their path what so the whole bit about attacks on israel from neighboring arab states can start all over again while i also hope for this to happen it will only occur when arab states show that they are prepared to take on the responsibility and the duty to stop guerilla attacks on israel from their soil they have to prove it or provide some guaratees there is no way israel is going to accept their word not with their past attitude of tolerance towards anti israel guerillas in residence if israel is not willing to accept the word of others then imho it has no business wasting others time coming to the peace talks this is just another selectively applied statement the reason for this drawn out impasse between ababs palestinians and israelis is that neither side is willing to accept the word of the other by your criteria everyone should stay away from the negotiations that is precisely why the palestinians in their recent pisga proposal for the interim period after negotiations and leading up to full autonomy are demanding conditions that essentially define autonomy already they do not trust that israel will follow through the entire process and allow palestinians to reach full autonomy do you understand and accept this viewpoint by the palestinians if you do then why should israel s view of arabs palestinians be any different why should they trust the arab palestinians words since they don t they are very reluctant to give up tangible assets land control of areas in exchange for words for this reason they are also concerned about the sorts of guarantees they will have that the arabs will follow through on their part of any agreement reached but don t you see that the same statement can be made both ways if lebanon was interested in peace then it should accept the word of israel that the attacks were the cause for war and disarming the hizbollah will remove the cause for its continued occupancy absolutely so are the arabs palestinians asking first for the israelis word in relation to any agreement no what is being demanded first is land when the issue is land and one party finally gets hold of this land what the other party does is totally irrelevent if i now have possession of this land your words have absolutely no power whether israel chooses to keeps its word does not get the land back afterall israel has already staged two parts of the withdrawal from areas it occupied in lebanon during slg tim you are ignoring the fact that the palestinians in lebanon have been disarmed hezbollah remains the only independent militia hezbollah does not attack israel except at a few times such as when the idf burned up sheikh mosavi his wife and young son while the major armaments those allowing people to wage civil wars have been removed the weapons needed to cross border attacks still remain to some extent rocket attacks still continue and commando raids only require a few easily concealed weapons and a refined disregard for human life yours of that of others such attacks also continue of course if israel would withdraw from lebanon and stop assassinating people and shelling villages they wouldn t make the lebanese so mad as to do that bat guano the situation you call for existed in the s and attacks were commonplace furthermore with hezbollah subsequently disarmed it would not be possible there is no way these groups can be effectively disarmed unless the state is as authoritarian is syria s the only other way is for lebanon to take it upon itself to constantly patrol the entire border with israel essentially mirroring israel s border secirity on its side it has to prove to isreal that it is this committed to protecting israel from attack from lebanese territory once syria leaves who is to say that lebanon will be able to retain control if syria stays thay may be even more dangerous for israel tim when is the last time that you recall any trouble on the syrian border not lately eh that s what i said ok but doesn t that mean that syria has to take over lebanon i don t think israel or lebanon would like that what both sides need is to receive something tangible the arabs palestinians are looking for land and demanding that they receive it prior to giving anything to israel israel has two problems if it gives up real land it is exposing itself to a changed geostrategic situation and that change doesn t help israel s position and when it gives up this land it needs to receive something in return to compensate for the increased risks tim
talk.politics.mideast	re was go hezbollah in article apr yuma acns colostate edu bh lance colostate edu writes in article bce news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes in article apr yuma acns colostate edu bh lance colostate edu writes your view of this entire matter is far too serenely one sided and selectively naive oooh now that hurts i will not suffer you through more naive and one sided views of mine please skip my articles in the future oh wise tim and have a good day basil what is the point in throwing out one sided viewpoints which means ignoring that the other side s perspective and experience has any legitimacy while assuming that your side possesses no faults and bears no responbility for any of the negative impacts of a particular event isn t the former onesided isn t the latter naive if you feel that my opinion is wrong then please tell me how strategic withdrawal under the cover of a snide remark seems to be the favored tactic on this net but doesn t accomplish anything
talk.politics.mideast	the hamas way of death the hamas way of death following is a transcript of a recruitment and training videotape made last summer by the qassam battalions the military arm of hamas an islamic palestinian group hamas figures significantly in the middle east equation in december israel deported more than palestinians to lebanon in response to hamas s kidnapping and execution of an israeli soldier a longer version appears in the may issue of harper s magazine which obtained and translated the tape my name is yasir hammad al hassan ali i live in nuseirat a refugee camp in the gaza strip i was born in i finished high school then attended gaza polytechnic later i went to work for islamic university in gaza as a clerk i m married and i have two daughters the qassam battalions are the only group in palestine explicitly dedicated to jihad holy war our primary concern is palestinians who collaborate with the enemy many young men and women have fallen prey to the cunning traps laid by the israeli security services since our enemies are trying to obliterate our nation cooperation with them is clearly a terrible crime our most important objective must be to put an end to the plague of collaboration to do so we abduct collaborators intimidate and interrogate them in order to uncover other collaborators and expose the methods that the enemy uses to lure palestinians into collaboration in the first place in addition to that naturally we confront the problem of collaborators by executing them we don t execute every collaborator after all about percent of them are innocent victims tricked or black mailed into their misdeeds the decision whether to execute a collaborator is based on the seriousness of his crimes if like many collaborators he has been recruited as an agent of the israeli border guard then it is imperative that he be executed at once he s as dangerous as an israeli soldier so we treat him like an israeli soldier there s another group of collaborators who perform an even more loathsome role the ones who help the enemy trap young men and women in blackmail schemes that force them to become collaborators i regard the isqat the process by which a palestinians is blackmailed into collaboration of single person as greater crime than the killing of a demonstrator if someone is guilty of causing repeated cases of isqat than it is our religious duty to execute him a third group of collaborators is responsible for the distribution of narcotics they work on direct orders from the security services to distribute drugs as widely as possible their victims become addicted and soon find it unbearable to quit and impossible to afford more they collaborate in order to get the drugs they crave the dealers must also be executed in the battalions we have developed a very careful method of uncovering collaborators we can t afford to abduct an innocent person because once we seize a person his reputation is tarnished forever we will abduct and interrogate a collaborator only after evidence of his guilt has been established never before if after interrogation the collaborator is found guilty beyond any doubt then he is executed in many cases we don t have to make our evidence against collaborators public because everyone knows that they re guilty but when the public isn t aware that a certain individual is a collaborator and we accuse him people are bound to ask for evidence many people will proclaim his innocence so there must be irrefutable proof before he is executed this proof is usually obtained in the form of a confession at first every collaborator denies his crimes so we start off by showing the collaborator the testimony against him we tell him that he still has a chance to serve his people even in the last moment of his life by confessing and giving us the information we need we say that we know his repentance in sincere and that he has been a victim that kind of talk is convincing most of them confess after that others hold out in those cases we apply pressure both psychological and physical then the holdouts confess as well only one collaborator has ever been executed without an interrogation in that case the collaborator had been seen working for the border guard since before the intifada and he himself confessed his involvement to a friend who disclosed the information to us in addition three members of his network of collaborators told us that he had caused their isqat with this much evidence there was no need to interrogate him but we are very careful to avoid wrongful executions in every case our principal is the same the accused should be interrogated until he himself confesses his crimes a few weeks ago we sat down and complied a list of collaborators to decide whether there were any who could be executed without interrogation an although we had hundreds of names still because of our fear of god and of hell we could not mark any of these men except for the one i just mentioned for execution when we execute a collaborator in public we use a gun but after we abduct and interrogate a collaborator we can t shoot him to do so might give away our locations that s why collaborators are strangled sometimes we ask the collaborator what do you think how should we execute you one collaborator told us strangle me he hated the sight of blood naftaly stramer intergraph electronics internet nstramer dazixco ingr com lookout road suite a voice fax boulder co quality is everybody s job and it s everybody s job to watch all that they can
talk.politics.mideast	from israeli press madness from center for policy research cpr subject from israeli press madness written pm apr by cpr igc apc org in igc mideast forum from israeli press madness from the israeli press paper zman tel aviv tel aviv s time friday local tel aviv s paper affiliated with maariv date february journalist guy ehrlich subject interview with soldiers who served in the duvdevan cherry units which disguise themselves as arabs and operate within the occupied territories excerpts from the article a lot has been written about the units who disguise themselves as arabs things good and bad some of the falsehoods but the most important problem of those units has been hardly dealt with it is that everyone who serves in the cherry after a time goes in one way or another insane a man who said this who will here be called danny his full name is known to the editors served in the cherry after his discharge from the army he works as delivery boy his pal who will here be called dudu was also serving in the cherry and is now about to depart for a round the world tour they both look no different from average israeli youngsters freshly discharged from conscript service but in their souls one can notice something completely different it was not easy for them to come out with disclosures about what happened to them and they think that to most of their fellows from the cherry it woundn t be easy either yet after they began to talk it was nearly impossible to make them stop talking the following article will contain all the horror stories recounted with an appalling openness a short time ago i was in command of a veteran team in which some of the fellows applied for release from the cherry we called such soldiers h i hit by the intifada under my command was a soldier who talked to himself non stop which is a common phenomenon in the cherry i sent him to a psychiatrist but why i should talk about others when i myself feel quite insane on fridays when i come home my parents know i cannot be talked to until i go to the beach surf a little calm down and return the keys of my father s car must be ready for in advance so that i can go there i they dare talk to me before or whenever i don t want them to talk to me i just grab a chair and smash it instantly i know it is my nerve smashing chairs all the time and then running away from home to the car and to the beach only there i become normal another friday i was eating a lunch prepared by my mother it was an omelette of sorts she took the risk of sitting next to me and talking to me i then told my mother about an event which was still fresh in my mind i told her how i shot an arab and how exactly his wound looked like when i went to inspect it she began to laugh hysterically i wanted her to cry and she dared laugh straight in my face instead so i told her how my pal had made a mincemeat of the two arabs who were preparing the molotov cocktails he shot them down hitting them beautifully exactly as they deserved one bullet had set a molotov cocktail on fire with the effect that the arab was burning all over just beautifully i was delighted to see it my pal fired three bullets two at the arab with the molotov cocktail and the third at his chum it hit him straight in his ass we both felt that we d pulled off something next i told my mother how another pal of mine split open the guts in the belly of another arab and how all of us ran toward that spot to take a look i reached the spot first and then that arab blood gushing forth from his body spits at me i yelled shut up and he dared talk back to me in hebrew so i just laughed straight in his face i am usually laughing when i stare at something convulsing right before my eyes then i told him all right wait a moment i left him in order to take a look at another wounded arab i asked a soldier if that arab could be saved if the bleeding from his artery could be stopped with the help of a stone of something else like that i keep telling all this to my mother with details and she keeps laughing straight into my face this infuriated me i got very angry because i felt i was becoming mad so i stopped eating seized the plate with he omelette and some trimmings still on and at once threw it over her head only then she stopped laughing at first she didn t know what to say but i must tell you of a still other madness which falls upon us frequently i went with a friend to practice shooting on a field a gull appeared right in the middle of the field my friend shot it at once then we noticed four deer standing high up on the hill above us my friend at once aimed at one of them and shot it we enjoyed the sight of it falling down the rock we shot down two deer more and went to take a look when we climbed the rocks we saw a young deer badly wounded by our bullet but still trying to such some milk from its already dead mother we carefully inspected two paths covered by blood and chunks of torn flesh of the two deer we had hit we were just delighted by that sight we had hit em so good then we decided to kill the young deer too so as spare it further suffering i approached took out my revolver and shot him in the head several times from a very short distance when you shoot straight at the head you actually see the bullets sinking in but my fifth bullet made its brains fall outside onto the ground with the effect of splattering lots of blood straight on us this made us feel cured of the spurt of our madness standing there soaked with blood we felt we were like beasts of prey we couldn t explain what had happened to us we were almost in tears while walking down from that hill and we felt the whole day very badly we always go back to places we carried out assignments in this is why we can see them when you see a guy you disabled may be for the rest of his life you feel you got power you feel godlike of sorts both danny and dudu contemplate at least at this moment studying the acting dudu is not willing to work in any security linked occupation danny feels the exact opposite why shouldn t i take advantage of the skills i have mastered so well why shouldn t i earn for each chopped head i would deliver while being a mercenary in south africa this kind of job suits me perfectly i have no human emotions any more if i get a reasonable salary i will have no problem to board a plane to bosnia in order to fight there transl by israel shahak
talk.politics.mideast	from israeli press nazi methods from center for policy research cpr subject from israeli press nazi methods written pm apr by cpr igc apc org in igc mideast forum from israeli press nazi methods from the israeli press newspaper ha aretz date february author gideon levi subject nazi methods in gaza title in the neighborhood of hope among the rubble excerpts mahmoud jowara r stared at me long and sadly i worked my entire life in order to built that house and this is what is left only tv could transmit the full sadness of his face you say that we teach our children to hate you but what do you expect to happen to a child who sees this and once again he wraps himself in a lengthy silence his face crumbling into weeping mahmoud stood in the field of rubble that was once his home the term dispossession has an absolute meaning here nothing is left of what he accumulated during his entire life only the rubble of a house and shreds of belongings once again khan yunis once again demolished homes last thursday there was a search for wanted people here once again the idf forces employed the new method fired and bombed and shot missiles and placed explosives already three times during the past weeks i have gone out to see the destruction and each time i was more horrifying scenes this time they hit the largest number of houses according to the idf estimate ten of them completely demolished but not only that the method has also become more brutal three weeks ago in tufah neighborhood in gaza the residents were still told to remove their valuables from their homes this time the army skipped that part three weeks ago the handcuffed men inhabitants of the demolished homes were supplied with some water and one apple during the hours they had to stand this time there was only water three weeks ago they were even allowed to go out to the toilet this time the soldier just gold them piss and shit in your pants and thus last thursday some men stood for about hours their hands bound behind their backs their eyes blindfolded without food with wet pants on their legs and a terrible feeling of humiliation in their hearts listening to the sounds of the explosions destroying their homes one after the other dr juma a fuad said al rubi the brother from saudi arabia emerges from among the ruins ten days ago he arrived for a family visit mainly in order to celebrate the housewarming with his father and brothers on thursday he was handcuffed like everyone else for hours and later went with everyone to view the destrucion he tried to explain that he was a visitor and that he is a physician but only got a shove like all the rest he also urinated in his pants while standing with his hands bound and his eyes blindfolded for the entire day juma a al rubi studied medicine at cairo university and for ten years he has been treating wealthy saudis in medina his wife and four children remained there now his documents have been lost and he does not know how he will return to them there is no humanity stated the physician from saudi arabia
talk.politics.mideast	from israeli press torture from center for policy research cpr subject from israeli press torture written pm apr by cpr igc apc org in igc mideast forum from israeli press torture from the israeli press newspaper ma ariv date december author avi raz subject torture title of article moderate physical pressure several times in the course of the long hours in the interrogation room in tulkarm prison during which he says he was humiliated beaten and tortured omar daoud jaber heard his interrogator a shabak agent captain louis chatting on the phone with his wife at those moments omar said i felt that he was like a humanbeing but right after he finished talking he would be beat me and say you listened to the conversation and enjoyed yourself and i understood that he was not really a human being in late october after days in detention at tulkarm prison omar jaber was released without charges among the jews as among the arabs there are good people and bad people he said after his release but there in tulkarm in the interrogations rooms you cannot find even one person about whom you can say that he is a human being although he left the detention installation in tulkarm bruised and humiliated i sat at home for ten days my hands shook from nerves one may consider omar jaber lucky he got out not so healthy but entire and even ultimately returned to normal functioning at the small solar heater plant he owns in contrast hassan bader al zbeidi for example was released seven weeks ago from detention in tulkarm after days in the shabak wing cut off from his surroundings he doesn t speak or react mustafa barakat aged only who was arrested in early august and was brought to the tulkarm detention installation left it one day later dead we have recently received an especially large number of testimonies concerning cruel tortures employed at the tulkarm detention installation by shabak interrogators noted dr niv gordon director of the association of israel and palestinian physicians for human rights the right to complain against the shabak does not excite anan saber makhlouf a year old student in fact he was extremely fearful about describing the manner in which he was interrogated in tulkarm prison in case the publication in the paper would return him to detention and lead to renewed mistreatment follow description of tortures omar a tall bearded man was silent i do not want to talk about it he finally said quietly some time later embarrased and ashamed he spoke sometimes he beats you and beats you until you ll kiss his hand and not only his hand even the hands of another interrogator and another whom he calls into the room and the last interrogator says now you are kissing my hand and later if i want you will kiss my ass these things take place in an israeli army detention installation located within the military government compound in tulkarm west bank but the shabak interrogation wing is a separate kingdom in early march the idf allowed representatives of b tselem the israeli information center for human rights in the territories to visit tulkarm prison but denied them access to the interrogation wing the interrogation wing is shabak property being solely under shabak responsibility all interrogations are performed by it said lieutnant sharon sho an the commander of the installation according to the internal report written by b tselem member yuval ginbar following the visit major david pe er governing commander of the prison system in the central command was quoted in the report there is an ethical problem here no one can enter the interrogation wing transl by i shahak
talk.politics.mideast	re turkish government agents on usenet i don t know anything about this particular case but other governments have been known to follow events on the usenet for example after tienanmien square in beijing the chinese government began monitoring cyberspace as the former director of peacenet i am aware of many incidents of local state national and international authorities monitoring usenet and other conferences such as those on the institute for global communications but what s the big deal you shouldn t advocate illegal acts in this medium in any case if you are concerned about being monitored you should use encyrption software available in igc s micro conference i know for a fact that human rights activists in the balkan mideast area use encryption software to send out their reports to international organizations such message can be decoded however by large computers consuming much cpu time which probably the turkish government doesn t have access to howard frederick university of california irvine department of politics and society
talk.politics.mideast	from israeli press short notes from center for policy research cpr subject from israeli press short notes written pm apr by cpr igc apc org in igc mideast forum from israeli press short notes from the israeli press hadashot march the israeli police department announced on the evening of friday march that it is calling upon jewish israeli citizens with gun permits to carry them at all times so as to contribute to their security and that of their surroundings ha aretz march yehoshua matza likud chair of the knesset interior committee stated that he intends to demand that the police department make it clear to the public that anyone who wounds or kills non jewish terrorists will not be put on trial ha aretz march today a private security firm and units from the idf southern command will begin installation of four magnetic gates in the gaza strip as an additional stage in the upgrading of security measures in the strip the gates will aid in the searching of non jewish gaza residents as they leave for work in israel they can be used to reveal the presence of knives axes weapons and other sharp objects in addition to the gates which will be operated by a private civilian company large quantities of magnetic card reading devices are being brought to the inspection points to facilitate the reading of the magnetic cards these non jewish workers must carry
talk.politics.mideast	re was go hezbollah in article apr yuma acns colostate edu bh lance colostate edu writes most of the people in my village are regular inhabitants that go about their daily business some work in the fields some own small shops others are older men that go to the coffe shop and drink coffee is that so hard to imagine quickly followed by some young men usually aged between to years are members of the lebanese resistance even the inhabitants of the village do not know who these are they are secretive about it but most people often suspect who they are and what they are up to this is the standard method for claiming non combatant status even for the commanders of combat these young men are supported financially by iran most of the time they sneak arms and ammunitions into the occupied zone where they set up booby traps for israeli patrols every time an israeli soldier is killed or injured by these traps israel retalliates by indiscriminately bombing villages of their own choosing often killing only innocent civilians innocent civilians like the ones who set up the booby traps or engaged in shoot outs with soldiers or attack them with grenades or axes we are now accustomed to israeli tactics and we figure that this is and the rest of the world is getting used to arab tactics of claiming innocence for even the most guilty of the vile murderers among them keep it up long enough and it will backfire but good jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	re basil opinions re water on the brain in article qmr qinn af early bird think com shaig think com shai guday writes the litani river flows in a west southwestern direction and indeed does not run through the buffer zone the hasbani does flow into the jordan but contrary to what our imaginative poster might write there has been no increase in the inflow from this river that is not proportional to climatic changes in rainfall what did you have to go and bring that up for now they re going to say that israel is stealing the rain too jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli expansion lust in article apr bnr ca zbib bnr ca writes jake livni writes sam zbib writes all deleted sam zbib s posting is so confused and nonsensical as not to warrant a reasoned response we re getting used to this too jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	re israel s expansion ii the comparison of the palestinian situation with the holocaust is insulting and completely false any person making such a rude and false comparison is either ignorant of the holocaust or also ignorant of the situation in the mideast or is an anti semite to compare a complicated political situation with the genocide of jews is racist in and of itself
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli terrorism as someone who reads israeli newpapaers every day i can state with absolute certainty that anybody who relies on western media to get a picture of what is happening in israel is not getting an accurate picture there is tremendous bias in those stories that do get reported and the stories that never get mentioned create a completely false picture of the mideast
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli terrorism how many of you readers know anything about jews living in the arab countries how many of you know if jews still live in these countries how many of you know what the circumstances of arabic jews leaving their homelands were just curious
talk.politics.mideast	re final solution for gaza center for policy research writes subject final solution for gaza final solution for the gaza ghetto while israeli jews fete the uprising of the warsaw ghetto they repress by violent means the uprising of the gaza ghetto and attempt to starve the gazans your comparison with the warsaw ghetto uprising is insulting and racist beyond belief the attempts to quiet any violence in the gaza strip are just that the efforts to quell murder and mayhem in the gaza strip were the resluts of violence and came after the violence it was not an arbitrary racial move like the nazi treatment of jews jews had not committed acts of violence and murder as have the residents of gaza i find your eagerness to ignore the acts of murder nothing more than anti israel bigotry the gaza strip this tiny area of land with the highest population density in the world has been cut off from the world for weeks the israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of gaza some people by denying them the right to leave the strip and seek work in israel it is not punishment but protection from repeated attacks by residents of gaza you self servingly omit any references to why israel has had to take action apparaently the deaths of innocent israeli civilians do not enter into your equation a racist ommission on your part while polish non jews risked their lives to save jews from the ghetto no israeli jew is known to have risked his life to help the gazan resistance the only help given to gazans by israeli jews only dozens of people is humanitarian assistance the right of the gazan population to resist occupation is recognized in international law and by any person with a sense of justice a population denied basic human rights is entitled to rise up against its tormentors the right of israel to protect its citizens from murderers is also recognized by international law israeli civilians have been getting stabbed to death on a daily basis if this wave of murder does not matter to you then your posturing for the basic human rights you claim matter so much to you is nothing but an anti israel charade as is known the israeli regime is considering gazans unworthy of israeli citizenship and equal rights in israel although they are considered worthy to do the dirty work in israeli hotels shops and fields do you know of residents of gaza who have applied for israeli citizenship and were denied i have heard of no such denials taking place can you document this or is this more of your stupid and innacurate propaganda the truth is that if gazan residents applied for citizenship hamas would murder them as collaborators many gazans are born in towns and villages located in israel they may not live there for these areas are reserved for the master race how dare you use such a disgusting phrase how very easy you attack a people when you omit facts which fly in the face of your pure racism perhaps you are judging a people to be the racists that you are do you believe that all jews must have the same bigoted makeup as you here s another little fly in your ointment about the master race for you to avoid two months ago a plane with bosnian muslims left bosnia to seek asylum in the middle east four arab nations refused to grant them asylum then when israli arabs agreed to take the responsibility for them they were allowed into israel yes israel but when the plane landed the israeli arabs who had previously agreed to take care of them refused to be involved with the rescue project because they felt that it would make israel look good it was more important to avoid any good pr for israel than to take care of fellow muslims israel moved them to a kibbutz where they are safe and secure the truth is that time after time the islamic world has turned its back on muslims in need more than israel has even in the case of the deportees lebanon was willing to let their so called arab brothers freeze to death rather than give them sanctuary in lebanon nearly twice as many palestinians have been murdered by other palestinians than in confrontations with israel hundreds of thousands of palestinians had been deported from kuwait just because they were palestinian the truth is that your phoney concern for the welfare of the palestinians is nothing but an excuse to attack israel you are part of the ignorant effort to confine all concern for the welfare of the palestinians to attacking israel but the truth is there are greater reasons than israel for the plight of the palestinians to disregard jordan or kuwait or saudi arabia or any of the other oil rich nations who do nothing for these people is to use the plight of these poor people as a vehicle for your hatred of jews or your hatred of israel anti semitism and anti zionism is not the same as pro palestinian and anyone who insists that it is the same really does not give two hoots for their welfare the nazi regime accorded to the residents of the warsaw ghetto the right to self administration they selected jews to pacify the occupied population and preventing any form of resistance some jewish collaborators were killed israel also wishes to rule over gaza through arab collaborators your pathetic analogy is so absent of relevant fact that your racism cannot be disguised jews had never declared war on a polish people jews had never attacked poles with knives or had used the ghetto as a staging ground for attacks to take something like the warsaw ghetto the creation of which you do not even bother to discuss and the uprising that followed is to degrade the dead and to show that intelligent debate on a difficult situation is beyond your intellectual purview you clearly have never even read a single word of the covenant of the islamic resistance movement here is arguably the single most anti semitic genocidal document since mein kampf yet it is totally disregarded in your rantings your racism is most evident in your eagerness to avoid such documentation if it were considered you might actually have to deal with mideast problems in a balanced manner rather than in an anti semitic manner as israel denies gazans the only two options which are compatible with basic human rights and international law that of becoming israeli citizens with full rights or respecting their right for self determination it must be concluded that the israeli jewish society does not consider gazans full human beings and just how was gaza obtained do you forget that israel is not in the habit of grabbing land for the hell of it but had taken gaza in a war that it did not start did you know land israel captures in wars wars which other nations have always started aren t the same as israel and they are subject to a completely different set of international laws since you do continuously refer to international law would you please say what specific international laws israel is violating this attitude is consistent with the attitude of the nazis towards jews i can cite reasons why it is not the current policies by the israeli government of cutting off gaza are consistent with the wish publicly expressed by prime mininister yitzhak rabin that gaza sink into the sea where is this quote i have never heard rabin assert that he wished such a thing since you are in general a liar you ll have to provide the entire quote with source or this effort will be regarded as just another one of your fabrications one is led to ask oneself whether israeli leaders entertain still more sinister goals towards the gazans whether they have some final solution up their sleeve only you are led to ask such a loaded racist intellectually dishonest question you inability to come to terms with what you are has turned you into a racist of the highest order i urge all those who have slight human compassion to do whatever they can to help the gazans regain their full human civil and political rights to which they are entitled as human beings why do you not feel the same compassion for the jews of iran or iraq or yemen or saudi arabia or syria do you have an inkling of what they have endured over the past decades or what about the plight of the palestinians in kuwait or what about the treatment of the bosnian muslims do you think the residents of gaza are being subjected to what all the muslims in bosnia are enduring why are you indifferent to the death and suffering of people why do you not care that these folk are being exterminated why do you not care that only israel has given any of these people safe haven could it be due to the fact that it is not israel who is doing the killing the people in gaza are not being exterminated they aren t being killed they aren t being raped they aren t being starved they aren t being driven from their lands they are not kept from receiving food or other supplies but the bosnians are and the only country which has provided some sanctuary to the bosnian muslims is the same nation that you have devoted your life to attacking in the guise of compassion your rantings are so unfettered by the burden of intellectual honesty that you ought to take a deep breath and ask yourself what your real motives are do not flatter yourself into the belief that truth or compassion are what drives you in your case it is clear that hate beats out love every time maybe you are burdened with some kind of guilt for having been born a jew it is obvious that your hatred of your own judaism is being dumped on all other jews why else would you suggest a racist idea like breeding jews out of existence maybe these fits of anti semitism are a result of being cut off from your own people for an extended period whatever the case may be it is clear that you are not what you have labored so hard to appear to be when you realize that you can t care for other people while you hate yourself you might actually begin to do some good but for now you are a fruad
talk.politics.mideast	hamza salah the humanist cl cleveland freenet edu hamaza h salah writes well said mr beyer he he the great humanist speaks one has to read mr salah s posters in which he decribes jews as sons of pigs and monkeys keeps promising the final battle between muslims and jews in which the stons and the trees will cry for the muslims to come and kill the jews hiding behind them makes jokes about jews dying from heart attacks etc to realize his objective stance on the matters involved danny keren
talk.politics.mideast	re hamza salah the humanist mr salah why are you such a homicidal racist do you feel this same hatred towards christans or is it only jews are you from a family of racists did you learn this racism in your home or are you a self made bigot how does one become such a racist i wonder what you think your racism will accomplish are you under the impression that your racism will help bring peace in the mid east i would like to know your thoughts on this
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli terrorism in a previous article ai yfn ysu edu ishaq s azzam says in a previous article bc cleveland freenet edu mark ira kaufman says how many of you readers know anything about jews living in the arab countries how many of you know if jews still live in these countries how many of you know what the circumstances of arabic jews leaving their homelands were just curious i thought there are no jews live in arab countries didn t hey move all to palestine only the happy jews did not move would you tell me which arab country is prohipiting the jews from migrating to palestine the last arab country was syria but not all of them migrated due to the jewish state economical and securital dilemma cl cleveland freenet edu h a m z a foo i e most foo
talk.politics.mideast	re deir yassin in article martinb brise ere umontreal ca aurag ere umontreal ca aurag hassan writes are you trying to say that there were no massacres in deir yassin or in sabra and shatila if so then let me tell you some good jokes there is not and was not any such thing like jewish killing in wwii palestinians just did what davidians did for fourty years and more in fact no one was killed in any war at any time or any place people die that is all no one gets killed maybe also vietamiese didn t die in vietnam war killed by american napalm they were just pyromaniacs and that s all maybe jews just liked gas chambers and no one forced them to get in there they may be thought it was like snifing cocaine no what do you think of this isn t it stupid to say so well it is as stupid as what you said next time you want to lie do it intelligently sincerely yours hassan arab civilians did die at dir yassin but there was no massacre first of all the village housed many armed troops secondly the irgun and stern fighters had absolutely no intentions of killing civilians the village was attacked only for its military significance in fact a warning was given to the occupants of the village to leave before the attack was to begin by all rational standards dir yassin was not a massacre the killing was unintentional the village housed arab snipers and arab troops thus it was attacked for its military significance it was not attacked with intentions of killing any civilians to even compare dir yassin in which some or so arabs died to the holocaust is absurd the irgun did not want to kill any civilians the village had almost inhabitants most of whom survived harry
talk.politics.mideast	dir yassin from myths and facts by leonard j davis near east research inc pp unlike the plo s almost exclusive focus on civilian targets the troups from the irgun and stern group that struck at deir yassin on april targeted the village for its military importance deir yassin was on the road to jerusalem which the arabs had blockaded and it housed iraqi troups and palestinian irregulars snipers based in deir yassin were a constant threat to jewish citizens in jerusalem arab civilians were killed at deir yassin but that attack does not conform to the propaganda picture that the arabs have tried to paint the number of arabs killed was generally reported to be about in however eric silver of the guardian britain interviewed a survivor mophammed sammour who testified that out of a population of were killed about three days after the massacre sammour explained representatives of each of the five clans in deir yassin met at the moslem offices in jerusalem and made a list of the people who had not been found alive we went through the names nothing has happend since to make me think this figure was wrong unlike the plo s deliberate attacks on civilians the killing of civilians at deir yassin was not premeditated the attackers left open an escape corridor from the village and more than residents left unharmed after the remaining arabs feigned surrender and then fired on the jewish troops some of the attackers killed arab soldiers and civilians indiscriminately independent observers told the guardian that among the bodies they found arab men disguised as women
talk.politics.mideast	re final solution for gaza in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes final solution for the gaza ghetto while israeli jews fete the uprising of the warsaw ghetto they repress by violent means the uprising of the gaza ghetto and attempt to starve the gazans elias should the families of the children who were stabbed in their high school by a palestinian freedom fighter be the ones who offer their help to the gazans perhaps it should be the families of the israelis who were murdered last month by palestinian freedom fighters the jews in the warsaw ghetto were fighting to keep themselves and their families from being sent to nazi gas chambers groups like hamas and the islamic jihad fight with the expressed purpose of driving all jews into the sea perhaps we should persuade jewish people to help these wnderful freedom fighters attain this ultimate goal maybe the freedom fighters will choose to spare the co operative jews is that what you are counting on elias the pity of murderers you say your mother was jewish how ashamed she must be of her son i am sorry mrs davidsson harry
talk.politics.mideast	zionism the following flyer was distributed at aipac s th annual policy conference because when we re not in israel we re told to go back where we came from and when we come back to israel we re told to go back to where we came from and when we re vocal we have too much influence and when we are quiet we can afford to be because we we control everything anyway and when we buy something we can afford to because jews are so rich and when we don t buy something it s because we re cheap and because when we are poor we re called dirty jew and ignorant and when we re not we re called called rich jew and jap and when we are visibly organized it s because there is a secret jewish conspiracy and when we re not it is because there is a secret jewish conspiracy and because we re told we re not a people and when we say we are we re still told that we re not and when we marry our own people we re called racist and we don t we re contaminating someone else s race and because we re under fire from the left and from the right and because there are whites who hate us for not being white and because there are non whites who hate us for being white and because anti semitic incidents are rising every year but we re told that anti semitism doesn t exist or that we re paranoid and because we re told to shut up about the holocaust and yet holocaust revisionism is risng every year and when we are obnoxious we re called japs and when we are nice we re told we don t act jewish and because anti semitism is now world wide and because our people is not yet free and because we do not have to complete the work but neither are we free to desist from it for these reasons and many many more we are part of the jewish national liberation movement zionism
talk.politics.mideast	method employed by the armenians in genocide of the muslim people source men are like that by leonard ramsden hartill the bobbs merrill company indianapolis pages memoirs of an armenian officer who participated in the genocide of million muslim people p first paragraph in this movement we took with us three thousand turkish soldiers who had been captured by the russians and left on our hands when the russians abandoned the struggle during our retreat to karaklis two thousand of these poor devils were cruelly put to death i was sickened by the brutality displayed but could not make any effective protest some mercifully were shot many of them were burned to death the method employed was to put a quantity of straw into a hut and then after crowding the hut with turks set fire to the straw serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	the scenario and genocide staged by the armenians years ago the scenario and genocide staged by the armenians years ago in x soviet armenia is being reenacted again this time in azerbaijan the stories of survivors of karabag massacre are in milliyet today year old hatin nine telling my twin grandchildren were cut to pieces in front of my eyes they told me we won t kill you but the babies have to die in front of your eyes year old huseyin ibrahimoglu our turkish village in khojalu town was blown up in two hours while killing children and babies mercilessly they said you are turks you must die year old gulsum huseyin they bayonetted my year old daughter in her stomach in front of my eyes are these stories lies have the eye witnesses been day dreaming were these stories forged by turkish journalists in the region the nonsense of such a claim is clear from the writings of british journalists too two days before we had quoted from a sunday times article they british reported the events in karabag even before turkish journalists what is more here are the pictures pictures of people who were bayonetted whose eyes were gouged ears cut off even the armenian radio couldn t claim these lies they are saying exaggeration that means somethings have happened but the situation is not as bad as reported perhaps that village of khojalu town was destroyed in hours instead of or gulsum huseyin s year old daughter was bayonetted in her chest instead of stomach the massacre is clearly seen with all its dimensions the effects of this massacre on karabag and environs cannot be reduced by any word some of the western press led by some french newspapers ability to close their eyes is nothing but complicity in this massacre yesterday we gave samples from le figaro until yesterday s print no news about the real events in karabag were printed so were the french tv channels the subject they considered related to karabag was the necessity of protecting armenians against azeri attacks the age we are living in is termed a human rights age there are lots of organizations such as united nations and csce conference on security and cooperation in europe and rules all designed to fight against human rights violations international reactions must be made with international cooperation with support of everybody and every organization claiming to be civilized could there be a more serious human rights violation than that of the right to live and with such levels of barbarity and cruelty where is the cooperation where are the reactions and the intellectuals journalists writers tv stations of certain western countries such as france who are fast to claim leadership of human rights where are you serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	it was an encore performance staged by the armenians during wwi in while the jews were being assembled for their doom in the nazi concentration camps the nazi armenians in germany formed the first armenian battalion to fight alongside the nazis in this battalion had grown into eight battalions of strong under the command of dro the butcher who is the architect of the cold blooded genocide of million turks and kurds between an armenian national council was formed by the notorious dashnak party leaders in berlin which was recognized by the nazis encouraged by this the armenians summarily formed a provisional government that endorsed and espoused fully the principles of the nazis and declared themselves as the members of the aryan super race and full participants to hitler s policy of extermination of the jews this armenian nazi conspiracy against the jews during wwii was an encore performance staged by the armenians during wwi when they back stabbed and exterminated million turks by colluding with the invading russian army source adventures in the near east by a rawlinson jonathan cape bedford square london first published pages memoirs of a british officer who witnessed the armenian genocide of million muslim people p second paragraph i had received further very definite information of horrors that had been committed by the armenian soldiery in kars plain and as i had been able to judge of their want of discipline by their treatment of my own detached parties i had wired to tiflis from zivin that in the interests of humanity the armenians should not be left in independent command of the moslem population as their troops being without discipline and not under effective control atrocities were constantly being committed for which we should with justice eventually be held to be morally responsible serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	let the turks speak for themselves in article apr cs yale edu karage scus ctstateu edu angelos karageorgiou writes if turks in greece were so badly mistreated how come they elected two m not one but two representatives in the greek government pardon me greece government rail roads two turkish ethnic deputies while world human rights organizations scream greeks persistently work on removing the parliamentary immunity of dr sadik ahmet and mr ahmet faikoglu dr sadik ahmet turkish ethnic member of greek parliament visits us washington dc july doctor sadik ahmet one of the two ethnic turkish members of the greek parliament visited us on june through july th and held meetings with human rights organizations and high level us officials in washington dc and new york at his press conference at the national press club in washington dc sadik ahmet explained the plight of ethnic turks in greece and stated six demands from greek government ahmet said our only hope in greece is the pressure generated from western capitals for insisting that greece respects the human rights what we are having done to ethnic turks in greece is exactly the same as south african apartheid he added what we are facing is pure greek hatred and racial discrimination spelling out the demands of the turkish ethnic community in greece he said we want the restoration of greek citizenship of ethnic turks their citizenship was revoked by using the excuse that this people have stayed out of greece for too long they are greek citizens and are residing in greece even one of them is actively serving in the greek army besides other non turkish citizens of greece are not subject to this kind of interpretation at an extent that many of greek americans have greek citizenship and they permanently live in the united states we want guarantee for turkish minority s equal rights we want greek government to accept the turkish minority and grant us our civil rights our people are waiting since years to get driving licenses the greek government is not granting building permits to turks for renovating our buildings or building new ones if your name is turkish you are not hired to the government offices furthermore we want greek government to give us equal opportunity in business they do not grant licenses so we can participate in the economic life of greece in my case they denied me a medical license necessary for practicing surgery in greek hospitals despite the fact that i have finished a greek medical school and followed all the necessary steps in my career we want freedom of expression for ethnic turks we are not allowed to call ourselves turks i myself have been subject of a number of law suits and even have been imprisoned just because i called myself a turk we also want greek government to provide freedom of religion in separate interview with the turkish times dr sadik ahmet stated that the conditions of ethnic turks are deplorable and in the eyes of greek laws ethnic greeks are more equal than ethnic turks as an example he said there are about telephone subscribers in selanik thessaloniki and only about of them are turks that is not because turks do not want to have telephone services at their home and businesses he said that greek government changed the election law just to keep him out of the parliament as an independent representative and they stated this fact openly to him while there is no minimum qualification requirement for parties in terms of receiving at least of the votes they imposed this requirement for the independent parties including the turkish candidates ahmet was born in a small village at gumulcine komotini greece he earned his medical degree at university of thessaloniki in he served in the greek military as an infantryman in he got involved with community affairs for the first time by collecting signatures to protest the unjust implementation of laws against ethnic turks in he was arrested by the police for collecting signatures serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	role of sdpa org in slaughter of gunduz ariyak arikan benler in article apr urartu sdpa org hla urartu sdpa org writes sure it is it tells us how far right the whole turkish political spectrum nobody ever exposed your crimes like that before what was your personal role in the murder of orhan gunduz and kemal arikan again how many more muslims will be slaughtered by sdpa org as publicly declared and filed with legal authorities please spell it out for us that more people have to die sdpa urartu uucp yes i stated this and stand by it sdpa urartu uucp january los angeles kemal arikan is slaughtered by two armenians while driving to work march cambridge massachusetts prelude to grisly murder a gift and import shop belonging to orhan gunduz is blown up gunduz receives an ultimatum either he gives up his honorary position or he will be executed he refuses responsibility is claimed by jcag and sdpa may cambridge massachusetts orhan gunduz the turkish honorary consul in boston would not bow to the armenian terrorist ultimatum that he give up his title of honorary consul now he is attacked and murdered in cold blood president reagan orders an all out manhunt to no avail an eye witness who gave a description of the murderer is shot down he survives but falls silent one of the most revolting triumphs in the senseless mindless history of armenian terrorism such a murder brings absolutely nothing except an ego boost for the murderer within the armenian terrorist underworld which is already wallowing in self satisfaction were you involved in the murder of sarik ariyak december sydney two nazi armenians massacre sarik ariyak and his bodyguard engin sever jcag and sdpa claim responsibility it is public knowledge that the founder of the marxist leninist terrorist organization the asala an integral part of asala sdpa arf hagop hagopian began his notorious career as a member of the terrorist group which perpetrated the massacre of the israeli athletes at the munich olympics in and the armenian foundation stole from the children of turkiye to fund the criminal activities of the asala sdpa arf terrorists in their cold blooded murder of defenceless turkish and kurdish people the armenian foundation provided billion tl to asala milliyet the armenian foundation based in istanbul is found to have provided billion turkish lira million to the armenian terrorist organization asala which have murdered several turkish diplomats abroad experts on international terrorism assert that the armenian terrorists use proceeds from drug trafficking and from the armenian foundation to fund their deadly enterprises the deadliest of terrorist assassins carlos proclaimed on spanish television that his organization had entered into a working relationship with armenian terrorists and they are using drug trafficking to raise money to continue to slaughter innocent people now what is your personal and organizational role in this scheme recent reports which have been confirmed by the u s administration indicate that armenian terrorist organizations are collaborating with those who are responsible for the bombing of the united states marine barracks in beirut you won t be able to get away with your crimes forever the justice is long overdue as for the armenian genocide of million muslim people between and source documents volume i document no archive no cabin no drawer no file no section no contents no to the office of acting supreme commander acting assistant section director major ali sukru it is sufficient to mention just some of the terrible and shameful crimes committed only in erzurum to get an idea about the armenian atrocities in the villages i would also like to mention with disgust and abominable sight a stain on humanity that i encountered at the west of hasankale while my regiment was proceeding into this town there was a young turkish women apparently once a very beautiful one lying dead on one side of the road a huge stick had been inserted into her vagina we took the corpses and left it at a spot that was invisible from the road serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re was go hezbollah in article apr ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu brad hernlem writes in article bce news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes in article apr yuma acns colostate edu bh lance colostate edu writes tim you are ignoring the fact that the palestinians in lebanon have been disarmed hezbollah remains the only independent militia hezbollah does not attack israel except at a few times such as when the idf burned up sheikh mosavi his wife and young son of course if israel would withdraw from lebanon and stop assassinating people and shelling villages they wouldn t make the lebanese so mad as to do that furthermore with hezbollah subsequently disarmed it would not be possible just to address this one point what about the two katyusha rocket attacks made within lebanon for which fatah claimed responsibility i didn t realize that one can use katyushas while onr is disarmed also page of today s new york times faisal saleh a high ranking fatah official and his month old son were gunned down in beirut by members of abu nidal there have been assasination attempts in alone in the fued between these two factions resulting in deaths amir
talk.politics.mideast	re kol israel broacasts in article apr jarvis csri toronto edu gfeygin unicorn eecg toronto edu gennady feygin writes does anyone have a schedule of kol israel broadcasts in different languages that could be posted or e mailed to me your assistance would be greatly appreciated gf try thr rec radio shortwave newsgroup
talk.politics.mideast	forged posting forged posting forged posting the following posting was forged in my name please ignore such postings forged newsgroups soc culture turkish talk politics mideast talk politics forged soviet soc culture greek forged from dbd urartu sdpa org david davidian forged news software vax vms vnews forged organization university of tennessee computing center forged date fri apr gmt forged lines forged forged dear friends forged forged i am a graduate student in education at the university of tennessee forged forged forged forged questionnaire forged teaching music for deaf children forged forged name forged address e mail forged employing institution forged years of experience grade level s forged educational background bachelor masters doctorate forged professional field special educ music educ other the above posting was forged in my name please ignore such postings david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
talk.politics.mideast	re hamza salah the humanist dzk cs brown edu danny keren writes he he the great humanist speaks one has to read mr salah s posters in which he decribes jews as sons of pigs and monkeys keeps promising the final battle between muslims and jews in which the stons and the trees will cry for the muslims to come and kill the jews hiding behind them makes jokes about jews dying from heart attacks etc to realize his objective stance on the matters involved danny keren don t worry danny every blatantly violent and abusive posting made by hamzah is immediately forwarded to the operator of the system in which he has an account i d imagine they have quite a file started on this fruitcake and have already indicated that they have rules governing racist and threatening use of their resources i d imagine he ll be out of our hair in a short while todd
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli terrorism i think the israeli press might be a tad bit biased in reporting the events i doubt the propaganda machine of goering reported accurately on what was happening in germany it is interesting that you are basing the truth on israeli propaganda
talk.politics.mideast	re binyamin netanyahu on cnn tonight in article apr ncrcae columbiasc ncr com nabil ncrcol columbiasc ncr com nabil idriss writes arab leaders don t have to cheat they are actually allowed to have four wives are you implying above that arab leaders are gays aren t there jewish gays too arab leaders are now following by islamic rules or is it only applicable in cases like this i remember an article of about a year ago which stated that besides his wife saddam also has a mistress assad s brother has a wife and several mistresses and those emirs in the gulf have within their lifetimes wives in the double digitas only they manage to keep four at a time this is all irrelevant it takes a lot more than infidelity to make these leaders ruthless and corrupt maybe netanyahu thought he could cleanse himself by making such a public confession does the average secular israeli care though the mossad probably applauded him
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli terrorism ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes i think the israeli press might be a tad bit biased in reporting the events i doubt the propaganda machine of goering reported accurately on what was happening in germany it is interesting that you are basing the truth on israeli propaganda if you consider israeli reporting of events in israel to be propoganda then consider the washington post s handling of american events to be propoganda too what makes the israeli press inherently biased in your opinion i wouldn t compare it to nazi propoganda either unless you want to provide some evidence of israeli inaccuracies or parallels to nazism i suggest you keep your mouth shut i m sick and tired of all you anti semites comparing israel to the nazis and yes in my opinion if you compare israel to the nazis you are an anti semite because you know damn well it isn t true and you are just trying to discredit israel ed
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli terrorism in article apr virginia edu ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes i think the israeli press might be a tad bit biased in reporting the events i doubt the propaganda machine of goering reported accurately on what was happening in germany it is interesting that you are basing the truth on israeli propaganda since one is also unlikely to get the truth from either arab or palestinian news outlets where do we go to understand to learn is one form of propoganda more reliable than another the only way to determine that is to try and get beyond the writer s political agenda whether it is on or against our side tim tim clock ph d graduate student uci tel department of politics and society fax university of california irvine home tel irvine ca
talk.politics.mideast	after all armenians exterminated million muslim people there in article c y o a news cso uiuc edu hovig uxa cso uiuc edu hovig heghinian writes article i have no partisan interests i would just like to know what conversations between terpetrosyan and demirel sound like very simple x soviet armenian government must pay for their crime of genocide against million muslims by admitting to the crime and making reparations to the turks and kurds after all your criminal grandparents exterminated million muslim people between and c yybt zo news cso uiuc edu hovig uxa cso uiuc edu hovig heghinian to which i say hear hear motion seconded you must be a new armenian clown you are counting on asala sdpa arf crooks and criminals to prove something for you no wonder you are in such a mess that criminal idiot and its forged non existent junk has already been trashed out by mutlu cosar akgun uludamar akman oflazer and hundreds of people moreover asala sdpa arf criminals are responsible for the massacre of the turkish people that also prevent them from entering turkiye and trnc sdpa has yet to renounce its charter which specifically calls for the second genocide of the turkish people this racist barbarian and criminal view has been touted by the fascist x soviet armenian government as merely a step on the road to said genocide now where shall i begin from ahmet eecg toronto edu parlakbilek ahmet subject yalanci liar davidian keywords davidian the biggest liar message id jan jarvis csri toronto edu following is the article that davidian claims that hasan mutlu is a liar from dbd urartu sdpa org david davidian message id urartu sdpa org in article jan jarvis csri toronto edu ahmet eecg toronto edu ahmet parlakbilek asked a simple question ap i am asking you to show me one example in which mutlu coras or any other ap turk was proven to lie i can show tens of lies and fabrications of ap davidian like changing quote even changing name of a book anna the obvious ridiculous armenians murdered million moslems is the most outragious and unsubstantiated charge of all you are obviously new on this net so read the following sample not one but three proven lies in one day start yalanci txt some parts are deleted in article aug cbnewsd att com the usenet scribe for the turkish historical society hbm cbnewsd att com hasan b mutlu continues to revise the history of the armenian people let s witness the operational definition of a revisionist yalanci or liar in turkish yalanci according to leo yalanci yalanci the situation is clear on one side we have peace loving turks yalanci and on the other side peace loving armenians both sides minding yalanci their own affairs then all was submerged in blood and fire indeed yalanci the war was actually being waged between the committee of yalanci dashnaktsutiun and the society of ittihad and terakki a cruel and yalanci savage war in defense of party political interests the dashnaks yalanci incited revolts which relied on russian bayonets for their success yalanci yalanci l kuper genocide its political use in the twentieth century yalanci new york p this text is available not only in most bookstores but in many libraries on page we find a discussion of related atrocities which is title of the chapter the topic on this page concerns itself with submissions to the sub commission on prevention of discrimination of minorities of the commission on human rights of the united nations with respect to the massacres in cambodia there is no mention of turks nor armenians as claimed above vay sarsak vay yobaz vay yalanci vay turk milletinin yuz karasi mutlu vay the depth of foolishness the turkish historical society engages in while covering up the turkish genocide of the armenians is only surpassed by the ridiculous historical material publicly displayed david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org the life of a people is a sea and receiving this message i checked the reference l kuper genocide and what i have found was totally consistent with what davidian said the book was like voice of armenian revolutionists and although i read the whole book i could not find the original quota but there was one more thing to check the original posting of mutlu i found the original article of mutlu it is as follows according to leo the situation is clear on one side we have peace loving turks and on the other side peace loving armenians both sides minding their own affairs then all was submerged in blood and fire indeed the war was actually being waged between the committee of dashnaktsutiun and the society of ittihad and terakki a cruel and savage war in defense of party political interests the dashnaks incited revolts which relied on russian bayonets for their success b a leo the ideology of the armenian revolution in turkey vol ii p quato is the same reference is different davidian lied again and this time he changed the original posting of mutlu just to accuse him to be a liar davidian thank you for writing the page number correctly you are the biggest liar i have ever seen this example showed me that tomorrow you can lie again and you may try to make me a liar this time so i decided not to read your articles and not to write answers to you i also advise all the netters to do the same we can not prevent your lies but at least we may save time by not dealing with your lies and for the following line vay sarsak vay yobaz vay yalanci vay turk milletinin yuz karasi mutlu vay i also return all the insults you wrote about mutlu to you i hope you will be drowned in your lies ahmet parlakbilek from vd cunixb cc columbia edu vedat dogan message id apr news columbia edu in article apr urartu sdpa org dbd urartu sdpa org david davidian writes in article apr news columbia edu vd cunixb cc columbia edu vedat dogan wrote in response to article mar urartu sdpa org dbd urartu sdpa org david davidian writes source adventures in the near east by a rawlinson jonathan cape bedford square london first published pages dd such a pile of garbage first off the above reference was first published dd in not and has pages not second upon checking page dd we are asked to believe vd no mr davidian vd it was first published in i have the book on my desk now vd vd and furthermore the book i have does not have pages either as you vd claimed mr davidian it has pages any question well it seems your book has its total page numbers closer to mine than the n crap posted by mr o boy please can you tell us why those quotes are crap because you do not like them because they really exist why as i said in my previous posting those quotes exactly exist in the source given by serdar argic you couldn t reject it in addition the author s preface was written on january but the book was published in here we go again in the book i have both the front page and the author s preface give the same year and january respectively anyone can check it at her his library if not i can send you the copies of pages please ask by sct i really don t care what year it was first published or what i care about is what the book writes about murders tortures et in the given quotes by serdar argic and your denial of these quotes and your groundless accussations etc dd i can provide gif postings if required to verify my claim vd what is new i will post a gif file but i am not going go through the effort to show there is some turkish modified re publication of the book like last time i claim i have a book in my hand published in first publication and it exactly has the same quoted info as the book published in serdar argic s reference has you couldn t reject it but now you are avoiding the real issues by twisting around let s see how you lie from non existing quotes to re publication first you said there was no such a quote in the given reference you called serdar argic a liar i said to you no mr davidian there exactly existed such a quote i even gave the call number page numbers you could t reject it and now you are lying again and talking about modified re published book without any proof how when where by whom etc by the way how is it possible to re publish the book in if it was first published in your claim i am sure that you have some pretty well suited theories as usual and i am ready to send the copies of the necessary pages to anybody who wants to compare the fact and mr davidian s lies i also give the call number and page numbers again for the library use which are r and the page numbers to verify the quotes and it is not possible that s text has pages mine has and yours has now are you claiming that there can t be such a reference by saying it is not possible if not what is your point differences in the number of pages mine was published in serdar argic s was in no need to use the same book size and the same letter charachter in both publications etc etc does it give you an idea the issue was not the number of pages the book has or the year first published and you tried to hide the whole point the point is that both books have the exactly the same quotes about how moslems are killed tortured etc by armenians and those quotes given by serdar argic exist it was the issue wasn t it you were not able to object it does it bother you anyway you name all these tortures and murders by armenians as a crap people who think like you are among the main reasons why the world still has so many craps in the any question c wwqa wl news cso uiuc edu hovig uxa cso uiuc edu hovig heghinian hmm turks sure know how to keep track of deaths but they seem to lose count around million well apparently we have another son of dro the butcher to contend with you should indeed be happy to know that you rekindled a huge discussion on distortions propagated by several of your contemporaries if you feel that you can simply act as an armenian governmental crony in this forum you will be sadly mistaken and duly embarrassed this is not a lecture to another historical revisionist and a genocide apologist but a fact i will dissect article by article paragraph by paragraph line by line lie by lie revision by revision written by those on this net who plan to prove that the armenian genocide of million turks and kurds is nothing less than a classic un redressed genocide we are neither in x soviet union nor in some similar ultra nationalist fascist dictatorship that employs the dictates of hitler to quell domestic unrest also feel free to distribute all responses to your nearest asala sdpa arf terrorists the armenian pseudo scholars or to those affiliated with the armenian criminal organizations armenian government got away with the genocide of million turkish men women and children and is enjoying the fruits of that genocide you and those like you will not get away with the genocide s cover up not a chance serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	after all armenians exterminated million muslim people there in article c y o a news cso uiuc edu hovig uxa cso uiuc edu hovig heghinian writes article i have no partisan interests i would just like to know what conversations between terpetrosyan and demirel sound like very simple x soviet armenian government must pay for their crime of genocide against million muslims by admitting to the crime and making reparations to the turks and kurds after all your criminal grandparents exterminated million muslim people between and c yybt zo news cso uiuc edu hovig uxa cso uiuc edu hovig heghinian to which i say hear hear motion seconded you must be a new arromdian you are counting on asala sdpa arf crooks and criminals to prove something for you no wonder you are in such a mess that criminal idiot and its forged non existent junk has already been trashed out by mutlu cosar akgun uludamar akman oflazer and hundreds of people moreover asala sdpa arf criminals are responsible for the massacre of the turkish people that also prevent them from entering turkiye and trnc sdpa has yet to renounce its charter which specifically calls for the second genocide of the turkish people this racist barbarian and criminal view has been touted by the fascist x soviet armenian government as merely a step on the road to said genocide now where shall i begin from ahmet eecg toronto edu parlakbilek ahmet subject yalanci liar davidian keywords davidian the biggest liar message id jan jarvis csri toronto edu following is the article that davidian claims that hasan mutlu is a liar from dbd urartu sdpa org david davidian message id urartu sdpa org in article jan jarvis csri toronto edu ahmet eecg toronto edu ahmet parlakbilek asked a simple question ap i am asking you to show me one example in which mutlu coras or any other ap turk was proven to lie i can show tens of lies and fabrications of ap davidian like changing quote even changing name of a book anna the obvious ridiculous armenians murdered million moslems is the most outragious and unsubstantiated charge of all you are obviously new on this net so read the following sample not one but three proven lies in one day start yalanci txt some parts are deleted in article aug cbnewsd att com the usenet scribe for the turkish historical society hbm cbnewsd att com hasan b mutlu continues to revise the history of the armenian people let s witness the operational definition of a revisionist yalanci or liar in turkish yalanci according to leo yalanci yalanci the situation is clear on one side we have peace loving turks yalanci and on the other side peace loving armenians both sides minding yalanci their own affairs then all was submerged in blood and fire indeed yalanci the war was actually being waged between the committee of yalanci dashnaktsutiun and the society of ittihad and terakki a cruel and yalanci savage war in defense of party political interests the dashnaks yalanci incited revolts which relied on russian bayonets for their success yalanci yalanci l kuper genocide its political use in the twentieth century yalanci new york p this text is available not only in most bookstores but in many libraries on page we find a discussion of related atrocities which is title of the chapter the topic on this page concerns itself with submissions to the sub commission on prevention of discrimination of minorities of the commission on human rights of the united nations with respect to the massacres in cambodia there is no mention of turks nor armenians as claimed above vay sarsak vay yobaz vay yalanci vay turk milletinin yuz karasi mutlu vay the depth of foolishness the turkish historical society engages in while covering up the turkish genocide of the armenians is only surpassed by the ridiculous historical material publicly displayed david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org the life of a people is a sea and receiving this message i checked the reference l kuper genocide and what i have found was totally consistent with what davidian said the book was like voice of armenian revolutionists and although i read the whole book i could not find the original quota but there was one more thing to check the original posting of mutlu i found the original article of mutlu it is as follows according to leo the situation is clear on one side we have peace loving turks and on the other side peace loving armenians both sides minding their own affairs then all was submerged in blood and fire indeed the war was actually being waged between the committee of dashnaktsutiun and the society of ittihad and terakki a cruel and savage war in defense of party political interests the dashnaks incited revolts which relied on russian bayonets for their success b a leo the ideology of the armenian revolution in turkey vol ii p quato is the same reference is different davidian lied again and this time he changed the original posting of mutlu just to accuse him to be a liar davidian thank you for writing the page number correctly you are the biggest liar i have ever seen this example showed me that tomorrow you can lie again and you may try to make me a liar this time so i decided not to read your articles and not to write answers to you i also advise all the netters to do the same we can not prevent your lies but at least we may save time by not dealing with your lies and for the following line vay sarsak vay yobaz vay yalanci vay turk milletinin yuz karasi mutlu vay i also return all the insults you wrote about mutlu to you i hope you will be drowned in your lies ahmet parlakbilek from vd cunixb cc columbia edu vedat dogan message id apr news columbia edu in article apr urartu sdpa org dbd urartu sdpa org david davidian writes in article apr news columbia edu vd cunixb cc columbia edu vedat dogan wrote in response to article mar urartu sdpa org dbd urartu sdpa org david davidian writes source adventures in the near east by a rawlinson jonathan cape bedford square london first published pages dd such a pile of garbage first off the above reference was first published dd in not and has pages not second upon checking page dd we are asked to believe vd no mr davidian vd it was first published in i have the book on my desk now vd vd and furthermore the book i have does not have pages either as you vd claimed mr davidian it has pages any question well it seems your book has its total page numbers closer to mine than the n crap posted by mr o boy please can you tell us why those quotes are crap because you do not like them because they really exist why as i said in my previous posting those quotes exactly exist in the source given by serdar argic you couldn t reject it in addition the author s preface was written on january but the book was published in here we go again in the book i have both the front page and the author s preface give the same year and january respectively anyone can check it at her his library if not i can send you the copies of pages please ask by sct i really don t care what year it was first published or what i care about is what the book writes about murders tortures et in the given quotes by serdar argic and your denial of these quotes and your groundless accussations etc dd i can provide gif postings if required to verify my claim vd what is new i will post a gif file but i am not going go through the effort to show there is some turkish modified re publication of the book like last time i claim i have a book in my hand published in first publication and it exactly has the same quoted info as the book published in serdar argic s reference has you couldn t reject it but now you are avoiding the real issues by twisting around let s see how you lie from non existing quotes to re publication first you said there was no such a quote in the given reference you called serdar argic a liar i said to you no mr davidian there exactly existed such a quote i even gave the call number page numbers you could t reject it and now you are lying again and talking about modified re published book without any proof how when where by whom etc by the way how is it possible to re publish the book in if it was first published in your claim i am sure that you have some pretty well suited theories as usual and i am ready to send the copies of the necessary pages to anybody who wants to compare the fact and mr davidian s lies i also give the call number and page numbers again for the library use which are r and the page numbers to verify the quotes and it is not possible that s text has pages mine has and yours has now are you claiming that there can t be such a reference by saying it is not possible if not what is your point differences in the number of pages mine was published in serdar argic s was in no need to use the same book size and the same letter charachter in both publications etc etc does it give you an idea the issue was not the number of pages the book has or the year first published and you tried to hide the whole point the point is that both books have the exactly the same quotes about how moslems are killed tortured etc by armenians and those quotes given by serdar argic exist it was the issue wasn t it you were not able to object it does it bother you anyway you name all these tortures and murders by armenians as a crap people who think like you are among the main reasons why the world still has so many craps in the any question c wwqa wl news cso uiuc edu hovig uxa cso uiuc edu hovig heghinian hmm turks sure know how to keep track of deaths but they seem to lose count around million well apparently we have another son of dro the butcher to contend with you should indeed be happy to know that you rekindled a huge discussion on distortions propagated by several of your contemporaries if you feel that you can simply act as an armenian governmental crony in this forum you will be sadly mistaken and duly embarrassed this is not a lecture to another historical revisionist and a genocide apologist but a fact i will dissect article by article paragraph by paragraph line by line lie by lie revision by revision written by those on this net who plan to prove that the armenian genocide of million turks and kurds is nothing less than a classic un redressed genocide we are neither in x soviet union nor in some similar ultra nationalist fascist dictatorship that employs the dictates of hitler to quell domestic unrest also feel free to distribute all responses to your nearest asala sdpa arf terrorists the armenian pseudo scholars or to those affiliated with the armenian criminal organizations armenian government got away with the genocide of million turkish men women and children and is enjoying the fruits of that genocide you and those like you will not get away with the genocide s cover up not a chance serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re armenians will not get away with the genocide of azeri people in article c yxle ov cbfsb cb att com enis cbnewsg cb att com enis surensoy writes from article zuma uucp by sera zuma uucp serdar argic armenians will not get away with the genocide of azeri people on the contrary armenians will get away with the genocide of azeri people armenians already got away with raping torturing and massacering millions of innocent moslem peoples of eastern anatolia not this time enis furthermore a new generation has risen equipped with a deep sense of commitment politically mature and conscious who determinedly pursue the turkish cause through all necessary means ranging from the political and diplomatic to the armed struggle in other words what we have is a demand from the fascist government of x soviet armenia to redress the wrongs that were done against our people the crime of systematic cleansing by mass killing and extermination of the muslim population in the soviet republic of armenia karabag bosnia and herzegovina is an islamic holocaust comparable to the extermination of million muslims by the armenian government during the wwi and of over million european jews during the wwii tovfik kasimov azeri leader september today s ethnic cleansing policies by the serbian dictatorship against croatians and muslims of yugoslavia as well as the soviet republic of armenia s against the muslim population of neighboring azerbaijan are really no different in their aspirations than the genocide perpetrated by the armenian government years ago against the turkish and kurdish muslims and sephardic jews living in these lands cebbar leygara kurdish leader october serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	though his book was dealing with the genocide of muslims by armenians in article c y j hs blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee writes then repeat everything i said before with the word race related substituted for racist all that changes is the phrasing complaining that i used the wrong word is a quibble well your armenian grandparents were fascist as early as k s papazian asserted in patriotism perverted that the armenians lean toward fascism and hitlerism at that time he could not have foreseen that the armenians would actively assume a pro german stance and even collaborate in world war ii his book was dealing with the armenian genocide of turkish population of eastern anatolia however extreme rightwing ideological tendencies could be observed within the dashnagtzoutune long before the outbreak of the second world war in for example o zarmooni of the tzeghagrons was quoted in the hairenik weekly the race is force it is treasure if we follow history we shall see that races due to their innate force have created the nations and these have been secure only insofar as they have reverted to the race after becoming a nation today germany and italy are strong because as nations they live and breath in terms of race on the other hand russia is comparatively weak because she is bereft of social sanctities k s papazian patriotism perverted boston baikar press preface hairenik weekly friday april the race is our refuge by o zarmooni serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	armenians exterminated million muslim people denying the obvious in article apr oucsace cs ohiou edu gassan ouvaxa cats ohiou edu writes after having read this group for some time i am appalled at its lack of scholarship its fuzzy thinking reliance on obsessed and obnoxious posters well these are armenian and jewish scholars not me denying the obvious source hovannisian richard g armenia on the road to independence university of california press berkeley and los angeles p the addition of the kars and batum oblasts to the empire increased the area of transcaucasia to over square miles the estimated population of the entire region in was of whom percent were armenian percent georgian and percent moslem of the latter group were tatars paradoxically barely one third of transcaucasia s armenians lived in the erevan guberniia where the christians constituted a majority in only three of the seven uezds erevan uezd the administrative center of the province had only armenians as compared to moslems by the time of the russian census of however the armenians had established a scant majority percent in the guberniia it had risen by to percent or of the inhabitants this impressive change in the province s ethnic character notwithstanding there was on the eve of the creation of the armenian republic a solid block of tartars who continued to dominate the southern districts from the outskirts of ereven to the border of persia see also map historic armenia and map administrative subdivisions of transcaucasia in percent turk we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the tartars and then proceeded in the work of extermination our troops surrounded village after village little resistance was offered our artillery knocked the huts into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable and inhabitants fled from them into fields bullets and bayonets completed the work some of the tartars escaped of course they found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border into turkey the rest were killed and so it is that the whole length of the borderland of russian armenia from nakhitchevan to akhalkalaki from the hot plains of ararat to the cold mountain plateau of the north were dotted with mute mournful ruins of tartar villages they are quiet now those villages except for howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the scattered bones of the dead ohanus appressian men are like that p in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul it is in our power to tear away the veil of illusion that some of us create for ourselves it certainly is possible to severe the artificial life support system of an imagined ethnic purity that some of us falsely trust as the only structure that can support their heart beats in this alien land sahak melkonian preserving the armenian purity apr walter bellcore com ddc nyquist bellcore com daniel dusan chukurov the world s inaction when the conflict began over the mostly christian armenian enclave inside muslim azerbaijan might have encouraged the conflict in bosnia herzegovina said the moscow based activist who s part armenian no kidding the armenians tore apart the ottoman empire s eastern provinces massacred million defenseless turkish women children and elderly people burned thousands of turkish and kurdish villages and exterminated the entire turkish population of the armenian dictatorship between such outrageous sleight of hand that is still employed today in armenia brings a depth and verification to the turkish genocide that is hard to match a hundred years ago armenians again thought they could get whatever they wanted through sheer terror like the russian anarchists that they accepted as role models several armenian terror groups like asala sdpa arf terrorism and revisionism triangle resorted to the same tactics in the s butchering scores of innocent turks and their families in the united states and europe it seems that they are doing it again at a different scale in fascist x soviet armenia today a merciless massacre of the civilian population of the small azeri town of khojali pop in karabagh azerbaijan is reported to have taken place on the night of feb under a coordinated military operation of the th mechanized division of the cis army and the armenian insurgents close to people are reported to have been massacred elderly and children were not spared many were badly beaten and shot at close range a sense of rage and helplessness has overwhelmed the azeri population in face of the well armed and equipped armenian insurgency the neighboring azeri city of aghdam outside of the karabagh region has come under heavy armenian artillery shelling city hospital was hit and two pregnant women as well as a new born infant were killed azerbaijan is appealing to the international community to condemn such barbaric and ruthless attacks on its population and its sovereignty serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	destroying ethnic identity turks of greece macedonians in article c yc k f news cso uiuc edu ptg uxa cso uiuc edu panos tamamidis writes sure your memory is weak let me refresh your memory if that s not to late first of all it is called istanbul let me even spell it for you i s t a n b u l when my grandfather came in greece the official name of the city was constantinoupolis are you related to arromdian of asala sdpa arf terrorism and revisionism triangle now read carefully the following and then speak the recent helsinki watch page report broken promises torture and ditto helsinki watch problems of turks in western thrace continue ankara a a in a page report of the helsinki watch it is stated that the turkish minority in western thrace is still faced with problems and stipulated that the discriminatory policy being implemented by the greek government be brought to an end the report on western thrace emphasized that the greek government should grant social and political rights to all the members of minorities that are equal to those enjoyed by greek citizens and in addition they must recognize the existence of the turkish minority in western thrace and grant them the right to identify themselves as turks newspot may greece isolates west thrace turks the xanthi independent mp ahmet faikoglu said that the greek state is trying to cut all contacts and relations of the turkish minority with turkey pointing out that while the greek minority living in istanbul is called greek by ethnic definition only the religion of the minority in western thrace is considered in an interview with the greek newspaper ethnos he said i am a greek citizen of turkish origin the individuals of the minority living in western trace are also turkish emphasizing the education problem for the turkish minority in western thrace faikoglu said that according to an agreement signed in greece must distribute textbooks printed in turkey in turkish minority schools in western thrace recalling his activities and those of komotini independent mp dr sadik ahmet to defend the rights of the turkish minority faikoglu said in fact we helped greece because we prevented greece the cradle of democracy from losing face before european countries by forcing the greek government to recognize our legal rights on turco greek relations he pointed out that both countries are predestined to live in peace for geographical and historical reasons and said that turkey and greece must resist the foreign powers who are trying to create a rift between them by cooperating adding that in turkey he observed that there was will to improve relations with greece newspot january macedonian human rights activists to face trial in greece two ethnic macedonian human rights activists will face trial in athens for alleged crimes against the greek state according to a court summons no obtained by mils hristos sideropoulos and tashko bulev or anastasios bulis have been charged under greek criminal law for making comments in an athenian magazine sideropoulos and bulev gave an interview to the greek weekly magazine ena on march and said that they as macedonians were denied basic human rights in greece and would field an ethnic macedonian candidate for the up coming greek general election bulev said in the interview i am not greek i am macedonian sideropoulos said in the article that greece should recognise macedonia the allegations regarding territorial aspirations against greece are tales we are in a panic to secure the border at a time when the borders and barriers within the eec are falling the main charge against the two according to the court summons was that they have spread intentionally false information which might create unrest and fear among the citizens and might affect the public security or harm the international interests of the country greece the greek state does not recognise the existence of a macedonian ethnicity there are believed to be between to ethnic macedonians living within greece largely concentrated in the north it is a crime against the greek state if anyone declares themselves macedonian in greece serbia yugoslavia and bulgaria partioned macedonia into three pieces in albania took macedonian villages the part under serbo yugoslav occupation broke away in as the independent republic of macedonia there are million macedonians in the republic in bulgaria in albania and in serbia proper sideropoulos has been a long time campaigner for macedonian human rights in greece and lost his job as a forestry worker a few years ago he was even exiled to an obscure greek island in the mediteranean only pressure from amnesty international forced the greek government to allow him to return to his home town of florina lerin in northern greece aegean macedonia where the majority of ethnic macedonians live balkan watchers see the sideropoulos affair as a show trial in which greece is desperate to clamp down on internal dissent especially when it comes to the issue of recognition for its northern neighbour the republic of macedonia last year the state department of the united states condemned greece for its bad treatment of ethnic macedonians and turks who largely live in western thrace but it remains to be seen if the us government will do anything until the presidential elections are over serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	danny rubenstein talk danny rubenstein an israeli journalist will be speaking tonight wednesday pm on the messy subject of politics in israel he is speaking at hillel on the u c berkeley campus the talk is sponsored by the berkeley israel action committee iac adam schwartz adams robotics berkeley edu
talk.politics.mideast	danny rubenstein speaking tonight danny rubenstein an israeli journalist will be speaking tonight wednesday pm on the messy subject of politics in israel he is speaking at hillel on the u c berkeley campus adam schwartz adams robotics berkeley edu
talk.politics.mideast	go hizbollah ii from israel line thursday april today s ha aretz reports that three women were injured when a katyusha rocket fell in the center of their community the rocket was one of several dozen fired at the communities of the galilee in northern israel yesterday by the terrorist hizbullah organization in article apr ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu brad hernlem wrote congratulations to the brave men of the lebanese resistance with every israeli son that you place in the grave you are underlining the moral bankruptcy of israel s occupation and drawing attention to the israeli government s policy of reckless disregard for civilian life apparently the hizbollah were encouraged by brad s cheers good job brad someone forgot to tell them though that brad asks them to place only israeli sons in the grave not daughters paraphrasing a bit with every rocket that the hizbollah fires on the galilee they justify israel s holding to the security zone noam
talk.politics.mideast	re the u s holocaust memorial museum a costly and dangerous mistake dgannon techbook techbook com dan gannon writes the u s holocaust memorial museum a costly and dangerous mistake by theodore j o keefe holocaust revisionism theodore j o keefe is an editor with the institute for historical review educated at harvard university according to the harvard alumni directory mr o keefe failed to graduate you may decide for yourselves if he was indeed educated anywhere steven smith
talk.politics.mideast	re hamza salah the humanist are you people sure his posts are being forwarded to his system operator who is forwarding them is there a similar file being kept on mr omran salam john absood marlow ceased and sat apart indistinct and silent in the pose of a meditating buddha nobody moved for a time the offing was barred by a black bank of clouds and the tranquil waterway leading to the utter most ends of the earth flowed sombre under an overcast sky seemed to
talk.politics.mideast	to be exact million readers enlightened by serdar argic in article zuma uucp sera zuma uucp serdar argic writes a k a serdar argic the merciful and compassionate serdar argic s bountiful divine all knowing and footnoted wisdom is regrettably omitted for this solemn tribute where can i join the serdar argic fan club do i get a t shirt the friendly neighborhood alien life just hasn t been the same since david koresh died
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli terrorism in a previous article tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock says in article apr virginia edu ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes i think the israeli press might be a tad bit biased in reporting the events i doubt the propaganda machine of goering reported accurately on what was happening in germany it is interesting that you are basing the truth on israeli propaganda since one is also unlikely to get the truth from either arab or palestinian news outlets where do we go to understand to learn is one form of propoganda more reliable than another there are many neutral human rights organizations which always report on the situation in the o t but as most people used to see on tv the israelis do not allow them to go deep there in the o t the israelis used to arrest and sometimes to kill some of these neutral reporters so this is another kind of terrorism committed by the jews in palestine they do not allow fair and neutral coverage of the situation in palestine to determine that is to try and get beyond the writer s political agenda whether it is on or against our side tim anas omran
talk.politics.mideast	re israel s expansion ii ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes i understand how israel captured the teritory and feels that it is its right to annex it i can t fully understand why it has to deal with palestinians much the same way jews were treated before the holocaust the final solution by hitler what i totally don t get is why the u s has to subsidize the existance of such a thorough abuser of human rights just wondering seems that you re more just misinformed than just wondering the comparison you re making is not just totally off base but offensive to all sane people alan h stein astein israel nysernet org
talk.politics.mideast	re hamza salah the humanist dzk cs brown edu danny keren writes cl cleveland freenet edu hamaza h salah writes well said mr beyer he he the great humanist speaks one has to read mr salah s posters in which he decribes jews as sons of pigs and monkeys keeps promising the final battle between muslims and jews in which the stons and the trees will cry for the muslims to come and kill the jews hiding behind them makes jokes about jews dying from heart attacks etc to realize his objective stance on the matters involved humanist or sub humanist alan h stein astein israel nysernet org
talk.politics.mideast	re zionism is racism d c sessions dcs witsend tnet com writes so steve lets here what is zionism assuming that you mean hear you weren t listening he just told you zionism is racism this is a tautological statement i think you are confusing tautological with false and misleading alan h stein astein israel nysernet org
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli terrorism cl cleveland freenet edu hamaza h salah writes would you tell me which arab country is prohipiting the jews from migrating to palestine the last arab country was syria but not all of them migrated due to the jewish state economical and securital dilemma as usual when salah is not totally racist she manages to get virtually all the facts wrong assad pledged to allow jews to leave syria but not to go to israel unfortunately not all of them have escaped yet but not because they don t want to leave rather assad went back on his word and stopped issuing travel permits he claimed bureaucratic snags but everyone knows it was a tactic to pressure israel alan h stein astein israel nysernet org
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli terrorism would it be asking too much for you to document these allegations of israel used to arrest and kill neutral reporters i think you confuse israel with other nations of that geographical region to which the notion of a free unmonitored by the government press corps would be a joke as for the notion that israel threatens the human rights of palestinians by sealing off the gaza strip get real when the palestinian on palestinian civil war stops and all palestinians can behave like mature human beings israel will talk concessions on both sides for peace not before
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli terrorism in article rd eo a usenet ins cwru edu cy cleveland freenet edu anas omran writes in a previous article tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock says in article apr virginia edu ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes i think the israeli press might be a tad bit biased in reporting the events i doubt the propaganda machine of goering reported accurately on what was happening in germany it is interesting that you are basing the truth on israeli propaganda since one is also unlikely to get the truth from either arab or palestinian news outlets where do we go to understand to learn is one form of propoganda more reliable than another there are many neutral human rights organizations which always report on the situation in the o t but as most people used to see on tv the israelis do not allow them to go deep there in the o t the israelis used to arrest and sometimes to kill some of these neutral reporters anas of course the yahud needed blood for the matza after all passover was last month why don t you give us your national geographic travelogue of your recent trip to palestine or are you too disappointed by what you saw josh backon vms huji ac il so this is another kind of terrorism committed by the jews in palestine they do not allow fair and neutral coverage of the situation in palestine to determine that is to try and get beyond the writer s political agenda whether it is on or against our side tim anas omran
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli terrorism cy cleveland freenet edu anas omran writes the israelis used to arrest and sometimes to kill some of these neutral reporters eh could you please give me details about an event where a neutral observer was killed by purpose by an israeli soldier amos amos shapira jumper extraordinaire it is true that power corrupts c s system group hebrew university but absolute power is better jerusalem israel amoss cs huji ac il the demon to his son
talk.politics.mideast	re israel s expansion ii what gives isreal the right to keep jeruseleum it is the home of the muslim a s well as jewish religion among others heck nobody ever mentions what yitza k shamir did forty or fifty years ago which is terrorize westerners much in the way abdul nidal does today seems isrealis are nowhere above arabs so theref ore they have a right to jerusaleum as much as isreal does
talk.politics.mideast	re the u s holocaust memorial museum a costly and dangerous mistake in article r n d m techbook techbook com dgannon techbook techbook com dan gannon writes the u s holocaust memorial museum a costly and dangerous mistake by theodore j o keefe hard by the washington monument within clear view of the jefferson memorial an easy stroll down the mall to the majestic lincoln memorial has arisen on some of the most hallowed territory of the united states of america a costly and dangerous mistake on ground where no monument yet marks countless sacrifices and unheralded achievements of americans of all races and creeds in the building and defense of this nation sits today a massive and costly edifice devoted above all to a contentious and false version of the ordeal in europe during world war ii of non american members of a minority sectarian group now in the deceptive guise of tolerance the united states holocaust memorial museum begins a propaganda campaign financed through the unwitting largess of the american taxpayer in the interests of israel and its adherents in america after reading the first paragraph a quick scan confirmed my first impression this is a bunch of revisionist and anti semitic hogwash the ny times reported on april that the museum was built through private contributions on federal land your hate mongering article is devoid of current and historical fact intellectual content and social value down the toilet it goes jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	re final solution in palestine in article hm apr angell cs brown edu hm cs brown edu harry mamaysky writes in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes final solution for the gaza ghetto while israeli jews fete the uprising of the warsaw ghetto they repress by violent means the uprising of the gaza ghetto and attempt to starve the gazans the jews in the warsaw ghetto were fighting to keep themselves and their families from being sent to nazi gas chambers groups like hamas and the islamic jihad fight with the expressed purpose of driving all jews into the sea perhaps we should persuade jewish people to help these wnderful freedom fighters attain this ultimate goal maybe the freedom fighters will choose to spare the co operative jews is that what you are counting on elias the pity of murderers you say your mother was jewish how ashamed she must be of her son i am sorry mrs davidsson harry o k its my turn driving the jews into the sea i am sick and tired of this driving the jews into the sea sentance attributed to islamic movements and the plo it simply can t be proven as part of their plan pro israeli activists repeat it like parrots without checking its authenticity since it was coined by bnai brith what hamas and islamic jihad believe in as far as i can get from the arab media is an islamic state that protects the rights of all its inhabitants under koranic law this would be a reversal of the situation in which the jews in palestine took control of the land and its mostly muslim inhabitants however whoever committed crimes against humanity torture blowing up their homes murders must be treated and tried as a war criminal the political thought of these movements shows that a freedom of choice will be given to the jews in living under the new law or leaving to the destintion of their choice as for the plo i am at a loss to explain what is going inside arafat s mind although their political thinking seems far fetched with israel acting as a true super power in the region the islamic movements are using the same weapon the jews used to establish their state religion ahmed
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli terrorism in article amoss apr shuldig cs huji ac il amoss shuldig cs huji ac il amos shapira writes cy cleveland freenet edu anas omran writes the israelis used to arrest and sometimes to kill some of these neutral reporters eh could you please give me details about an event where a neutral observer was killed by purpose by an israeli soldier amos actually i m still trying to understand the self justifying rationale behind the recent murder of ian feinberg in gaza tim clock ph d graduate student uci tel department of politics and society fax university of california irvine home tel irvine ca
talk.politics.mideast	re israel s expansion ii bc cleveland freenet edu writes the comparison of the palestinian situation with the holocaust is insulting and completely false any person making such a rude and false comparison is either ignorant of the holocaust or also ignorant of the situation in the mideast or is an anti semite to compare a complicated political situation with the genocide of jews is racist in and of itself first of all i never said the holocaust i said before the holocaust i m not ignorant of the holocaust and know more about nazi germany than most people maybe including you what i resent is ignorant statements that call people names when they disagree with your position opposing the atrocities commited by the israeli governement hardly qualifies as anti semitism if you think name calling is a valid form of argument in intellectual circles you need to get out more often i don t think the suffering of some jews during wwii justifies the crimes commited by the israeli government any attempt to call civil liberterians like myself anti semetic is not appreciated
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli terrorism tclock orion oac uci edu writes since one is also unlikely to get the truth from either arab or palestinian news outlets where do we go to understand to learn is one form of propoganda more reliable than another the only way to determine that is to try and get beyond the writer s political agenda whether it is on or against our side tim first let me correct myself in that it was goerbels and not goering airforce who ran the nazi propaganda machine i agree that arab news sources are also inherently biased but i believe the statement i was reacting to was that since the american accounts of events are not fully like the israeli accounts the americans are biased i just thought that the israelis had more motivation for bias the un has tried many times to condemn israel for its gross violation of human rights however the us has vetoed most such attempts it is interesting to note that the u s is often the only country opposing such condemnation well the u s and israel it is also interesting to note that that means other western countries realize these human rights violations so maybe there are human rights violations going on after all
talk.politics.mideast	freedom in u s a i have just started reading the articles in this news group there seems to be an attempt by some members to quiet other members with scare tactics i believe one posting said that all postings by one person are being forwarded to his server who keeps a file on him in hope that appropriate action might be taken i don t know where you guys are from but in america such attempts to curtail someones first amendment rights are not appreciated here we let everyone speak their mind regardless of how we feel about it take your fascistic repressive ideals back to where you came from
talk.politics.mideast	re conventional proposales israel palestinians in article bce news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes in article bca dc news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes the latest israeli proposal first proposed in february of contains the following assumptions concerning the nature of any interim status refering to the wb and gaza the palestinians implemented by negotiations it states that israel will remain the existing source of authority until final status is agreed upon the exercise of powers under the isga will be subject to cooperation and coordination with israel israel will negotiate delegation of powers and responsibilities in the areas of administration justice personnel agriculture education business tourism labor and social welfare local police local transportation and communications municipal affairs and religious affairs the palestinian counterproposal of march there will be no limitations on its pisga powers and responsibilities except those which derive from its character as an interim arrangement it will have a strong police force responsible for security and public order in the opt it can request the assistance of a un peacekeeping force disputes with israel over self governing arrangements will be settled by a committee composed of representatives of the five permanent members of the un security council the secretary general of the un the pisga jordan egypt syria and israel i have read that there will be some concrete proposals concerning creation of a palestinian police force during the talk s next stage does anyone knows of the details of this idea how does it fit with the differing conceptions listed above tim clock ph d graduate student uci tel department of politics and society fax university of california irvine home tel irvine ca
talk.politics.mideast	re investment in yehuda and shomron aryans who do not base their reasoning on nazi ideology are racists thus spoke an american citizen in the name of judaism if this is judaism i think judaism should be combatted as any extremist and dangerous philosophy i suspect however that martin buber albert einstein and other jewish scholars would have rather converted to christianity than stay jews if they would have perceived judaism as such a perverted philosophy those who wish to learn something about the perversion of judaism should consult the masterly work by yehoshua harkabi who was many years the head of israeli intelligence and an opponent of the plo his latest book was published in english and includes a very detailed analysis of judeo nazism
talk.politics.mideast	re american jewish congress open letter to clinton in article apr vxcrna cern ch casper vxcrna cern ch casper davi ppe writes i must say i was appalled by the american jewish council s open letter america is not the world s policeman we cannot and should not take it upon ourselves to solve the problems of the entire world america s young men and women should not be sent to yugoslavia period if people feel strongly enough let them go as individuals to fight alongside the butchers of their choice we have a volunteer army the argument you gave only applies if we have a draft huh sorry i misread your remark about young men and women though i am now unsure what that sentence does mean furthermore people do not become butchers by being ethnic cleansed or do you automatically call them butchers because they are muslim i am disappointed in your logic especially coming from a stalwart of sci skeptic you implied that anyone who wants to send troops to bosnia wants to do so to help the butchers of their choice since the primary targets of help are muslim victims of ethnic cleansing you imply that such muslim victims are butchers people become butchers by butchering there have been atrocities on all sides this implies both sides are equal true it may sometimes be difficult or impossible to determine which side is the victim but that does not mean that victims do not exist would you in wwii have said that there were atrocities on the sides of both the jews and the germans these people have been butchering each other for centuries when one side wins and gets what it wants it will stop yes but both sides want different things the muslims chiefly want to not be ethnic cleansed the serbians want to ethnic cleanse the muslims it is indeed true that each side will stop when it gets what it wants but the things that the two sides want are not equivalent quite an impressive leap of reasoning to assume that i am so racist as to call someone a butcher because they are muslim in fact i think on the contrary the media fixation on this war as opposed to the dozens upon dozens of civil wars which have been fought in the recent past is because these are white people in europe when atrocities occur in the third world there is not as much news coverage and not nearly the same level of outrage i recall before we did anything for somalia apparent left wingers saying that the reason everyone was more willing to send troops to bosnia than to somalia was because the somalis are third worlders who americans consider unworthy of help they suddenly shut up when the us decided to send troops to the opposite place than that predicted by the theory for that matter this theory of yours suggests that americans should want to help the serbs after all they re christian and the muslims are not if the desire to intervene in bosnia is based on racism against people that are less like us why does everyone want to help the side that is less like us especially if both of the sides are equal as you seem to think on the first day after christmas my truelove served to me leftover turkey on the second day after christmas my truelove served to me turkey casserole that she made from leftover turkey days deleted flaming turkey wings pizza hut commercial and m tlu a gic bait ken arromdee arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu
talk.politics.mideast	re american jewish congress open letter to clinton in article apr vxcrna cern ch casper vxcrna cern ch casper davi ppe writes are you aware that there is an arms embargo on all of what is was yugoslavia including bosnia which guarantees massive military superiority of serbian forces and does not allow the bosnians to try to defend themselves should we sell weapons to all sides or just the losing one then ending an embargo does not we must sell anything at all if the europeans want to sell weapons to one or both sides they are welcome as far as i m concerned you seem to oppose ending the embargo you know it is difficult for europeans to sell weapons when there is an embargo in place i do not automatically accept the argument that bosnia is any worse than other recent civil wars say vietnam for instance the difference is it is happening to white people inside europe with lots of tv coverage but if this was the reason and if furthermore both sides are equal wouldn t all us racist americans be favoring the good christians serbs instead of the non christians we really seem to favor on the first day after christmas my truelove served to me leftover turkey on the second day after christmas my truelove served to me turkey casserole that she made from leftover turkey days deleted flaming turkey wings pizza hut commercial and m tlu a gic bait ken arromdee arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu
talk.politics.mideast	re american jewish congress open letter to clinton in article c vbnv cj blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee writes in article apr vxcrna cern ch casper vxcrna cern ch casper davi ppe writes i complained about the us taking the point in bosnia when the europeans should be doing it ken says the bosnians are morally superior to the serbians this implies both sides are equal true it may sometimes be difficult or impossible to determine which side is the victim but that does not mean that victims do not exist yes victims exist there are a staggering number of victims in the world and more each day i think on balance intervention would create more victims including american ones since the first responsibility of the us government is to protect americans i think they serve that role best by staying away from bosnia and other regional conflicts would you in wwii have said that there were atrocities on the sides of both the jews and the germans of course not the jews were not trying to carve a territory out of germany either and except for small scale resistance and a few larger uprisings did not have an army or a government these people have been butchering each other for centuries when one side wins and gets what it wants it will stop yes but both sides want different things the muslims chiefly want to not be ethnic cleansed the serbians want to ethnic cleanse the muslims it is indeed true that each side will stop when it gets what it wants but the things that the two sides want are not equivalent i see the pattern of atrocities as a fairly often practiced tactic of a colonizing power driving away and or eliminating the population of an area they want to control the us tried basically that in vietnam the iraqis in kuwait the israelis in palestine south africa etc etc etc it sucks it s ugly and it s saddening but it is not genocide it is not my impression that the serbs want to eliminate every muslim in yugoslavia i still say the bosnians are getting their asses kicked they should surrender and evacuate the areas they can t hold i said the fixation on bosnia is due to it being in a european country rather than the third world i recall before we did anything for somalia apparent left wingers saying that the reason everyone was more willing to send troops to bosnia than to somalia was because the somalis are third worlders who americans consider unworthy of help they suddenly shut up when the us decided to send troops to the opposite place than that predicted by the theory i am a staunch republican btw the irony of arguing against military intervention with arguments based on vietnam has not escaped me i was opposed to us intervention in somalia for the same reasons although clearly it was not nearly as risky for that matter this theory of yours suggests that americans should want to help the serbs after all they re christian and the muslims are not if the desire to intervene in bosnia is based on racism against people that are less like us why does everyone want to help the side that is less like us especially if both of the sides are equal as you seem to think well one thing you have to remember is the press likes a good story good for business don t you know and btw not everyone wants to help the side that is less like us i never said the two sides were morally equivalent i said neither one is innocent there are just too many good reasons to stay away the europeans are perfectly able to deal with this dispute on their borders in any way we do it put another way we have no assistance to offer the europeans which they do not already possess themselves it is not good to promote the idea in anyone s mind that the united states is responsible for cleaning up every bloody mess in the world clinton is not the man to lead this country into a military adventure full stop it is by no means clear what intervention would accomplish nor that it would necessarily help the victims it is not clear what the goal is and at what point any commitment could be ended
talk.politics.mideast	re american jewish congress open letter to clinton in article c vbtk f blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee writes in article apr vxcrna cern ch casper vxcrna cern ch casper davi ppe writes are you aware that there is an arms embargo on all of what is was yugoslavia including bosnia which guarantees massive military superiority of serbian forces and does not allow the bosnians to try to defend themselves should we sell weapons to all sides or just the losing one then ending an embargo does not we must sell anything at all right we ll probably end up giving them weapons if the europeans want to sell weapons to one or both sides they are welcome as far as i m concerned you seem to oppose ending the embargo you know it is difficult for europeans to sell weapons when there is an embargo in place during wwii the british managed to supply arms to the yugoslavs despite german occupation if the europeans had the will to do anything besides sponsoring peace conferences they would have no problem putting any kind of weapon they wanted into bosnia i guess i would favor ending the embargo if the congress would pass a law forbidding export of us military supplies to yugoslavia including via third parties until then the risks of the us being drawn into a more active role would be too great i do not see the arms embargo as a major factor in the outcome of the war i do not automatically accept the argument that bosnia is any worse than other recent civil wars say vietnam for instance the difference is it is happening to white people inside europe with lots of tv coverage but if this was the reason and if furthermore both sides are equal wouldn t all us racist americans be favoring the good christians serbs instead of the non christians we really seem to favor both sides are certainly not equal in the eyes of the press and that s about all we have to go on isn t it and i wish you d quit hurling words like racist around there are many levels at which people react to what they see at the most fundamental level you do not have to consciously recognize the racial element you simply tend to empathize more with people who are like yourself as far preferring christian over moslem i am an atheist myself and i think you ll agree that in the us the majority of people do not typically discriminate on the basis of religion nor give it a particularly important place in their world view dave
talk.politics.mideast	re killer in article apr doug cae wisc edu yamen cae wisc edu soner yamen responded to article r kr m q nic umass edu burak ucsvax ucs umass edu afs who wrote afs just a quick comment afs afs armenians killed turks turks killed armenians afs afs simple as that can anybody deny these facts jews killed germans in wwii germans killed jews in wwii but there was quite a difference in these two statements regardless of what nazi revisionists say sy my grand parents were living partly in todays armenia and partly in sy todays georgia there were villages kurd turk different turkic groups sy georgian muslim christian armenian and farsi very near to eachother sy the people living there were aware of their differences they were sy different people for example my grandfather would not have been happy sy if his doughter had willed to marry an armenian guy but that did not sy mean that they were willing to kill eachother no they were neighbors ok sy armenians killed turks which armenians their neoghbors as far as my sy grandparents are concerned the armenians attacked first but these sy armenians were not their neighbors they came from other places maybe sy first they had a training at some place they were taught to kill people sy to hate turks kurds it seems so there is certainly a difference between the planned extermination of the armenians of eastern turkey beginning in with that of the armeno georgian conflicts of late the argument is not whether armenians ever killed in their collective existence but rather the wholesale destruction of anatolian armenians under orders of the turkish government an armenian georgian dispute over the disposition of akhalkalak lori and pambak after the turkish third army evacuated the region cannot be equated with the extermination of anatolian armenians many armenians and georgians died in this area in the scramble to re occupy these lands and the lack of preparation for the winter months this is not the same as the turkish genocide of the armenians nearly four years earlier hundreds of kilometers away sy anyway but after they killed raped turks and other muslim people sy around people assumed that armenians killed us raped our women sy not a particular group of people trained in some camps maybe backed sy by some powerful states after that step you cannot explain these sy people not to hate all armenians i don t follow perhaps the next paragraph will shed some light sy so what am i trying to point out first at least for that region sy you cannot blame turks kurds etc since it was a self defense situation sy most of the armenians i think are not to blame either but since some sy people started that fire it is not easy to undo it there are facts sy people cannot trust eachother easily it is very difficult to establish sy a good relation based on mutual respect and trust between nations with sy different ethnic cultural religious backgrounds but it is unfortunately sy very easy to start a fire again the fighting between armenians and georgians in had little to do with the destruction of the armenians in turkey it is interesting that the georgian leaders of the transcaucasian federation armenia azerbaijan and georgia made special deals with turkish generals not to pass through tiflis on their way to baku in return for georgians not helping the armenians militarily of course as turkish troops marched across what was left of caucasian armenia many armenians went north and such population movement caused problems with the locals this is in no comparison with events years earlier in eastern anatolia my father s mother s family escaped cemiskezek erzinka erzerum nakhitchevan tiflis constantinople massachusetts sy my grandparents were not bloodthirsty people we did not experience sy what they had to endure they had to leave their lands there were sy ladies old ladies all of her children killed while she forced to sy witness young women put dirt at their face to make themselves sy unattractive i don t want to go into any graphic detail my grandmother s brother was forced to dress up as a kurdish women and paste potato skins on his face to look ugly the turks would kill any armenian young man on sight in dersim because their family was rather influential local kurds helped them escape before it was too late this is why i am alive today sy you may think that my sources are biased they were biased in some sense sy they experienced their own pain of course that is the way it is but sy as i said they were living in peace with their neighbors before why sy should they become enemies david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
talk.politics.mideast	re israel s expansion ii in article pp a auvm american edu paul h pimentel pp a auvm american edu writes what gives isreal the right to keep jeruseleum it is the home of the muslim a s well as jewish religion among others heck nobody ever mentions what yitza k shamir did forty orfifty yearsago which is terrorize westerners much in the way abdul nidal does today seems isrealis are nowhere above arabs so theref ore they have a right to jerusaleum as much as isreal does if ownership were rightly based on worthiness there wouldn t be any owners what is your point as i understand it israel s claim on jerusalem is based on possession and the absolutely central not second not third role it plays in jewish identity tim clock ph d graduate student tclock orion oac uci edu department of politics and society we have met the tel fax
talk.politics.mideast	re israel s expansion in article apr vm mcgill ca b ha b ha musicb mcgill ca writes just a couple of questions for the pro israeli lobby out there is israel s occupation of southern lebanon temporary for mr stein i am working on a proof for you that israel is diverting water to the jordan river away from lebanese territory yes as long as the goverment over there can force some authority and prevent terrorists attack against israel is israel s occupation of the west bank gaza and golan temporary if so for those of you who support it why were so many settlers moved into the territories if it is not temporary let s hear it sinai had several big cities that were avcuated when isreal gave it back to egypth but for a peace agreement so it is my opinin that the settlers will not be an obstacle for withdrawal as long it is combined with a real peace agreement with the arabs and the palastinians steve naftaly naftaly stramer intergraph electronics internet nstramer dazixco ingr com lookout road suite a voice fax boulder co quality is everybody s job and it s everybody s job to watch all that they can
talk.politics.mideast	re the u s holocaust memorial museum a costly and dangerous mistake in article c ut s xa bony bony com jake bony bony com jake livni writes in article r n d m techbook techbook com dan gannon writes dg the u s holocaust memorial museum a costly and dangerous mistake dg by theodore j o keefe dg hard by the washington monument within clear view of the jefferson dg memorial an easy stroll down the mall to the majestic lincoln memorial dg has arisen on some of the most hallowed territory of the united states of dg america a costly and dangerous mistake on ground where no monument yet dg marks countless sacrifices and unheralded achievements of americans of all dg races and creeds in the building and defense of this nation sits today a dg massive and costly edifice devoted above all to a contentious and false dg version of the ordeal in europe during world war ii of non american dg members of a minority sectarian group now in the deceptive guise of dg tolerance the united states holocaust memorial museum begins a propaganda dg campaign financed through the unwitting largess of the american taxpayer dg in the interests of israel and its adherents in america jake after reading the first paragraph a quick scan confirmed my first jake impression this is a bunch of revisionist and anti semitic hogwash jake i m really disappointed in you it took you a whole paragraph to see that it was bunch of revisionist and anti semitic hogwash the article title the u s holocaust memorial museum a costly and dangerous mistake should have been enough tsiel tsiel ohayon jcpl co jp if you do not receive this e mail please let me employer may not have same know as soon as possible if possible opinions if any two percent of zero is almost nothing
talk.politics.mideast	dear mr ajami i have read just today two articles dripping of hate and offence to a great deal of people i could find as much matching hatred in your articles as i have found in some of the self righteous kill in the name of god people i don t know why you are so attcaking to everyone is it a reaction to the hatred calls on this newsgroup or is it a reaction to hardships you have seen and experienced from before i have learnt not to judge people by only what they say but rather try to put myself in their place and aspire to understand their feelings i hope you would be able to do the same with everyone starting by your ownself because only through that you could be able to understand your feelings and act in a the manner you would aspire everyone to adopt thanks for your time nabil
talk.politics.mideast	re freedom in u s a in article apr virginia edu ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes i have just started reading the articles in this news group there seems to be an attempt by some members to quiet other members with scare tactics i believe one posting said that all postings by one person are being forwarded to his server who keeps a file on him in hope that appropriate action might be taken i don t know where you guys are from but in america such attempts to curtail someones first amendment rights are not appreciated here we let everyone speak their mind regardless of how we feel about it take your fascistic repressive ideals back to where you came from it would be nice if as you rightly point out the inherent value of freedom of speech discussion would also deal with the all to frequent ritualized abuses and distortions of that freedom that do occur there are situations where a few extremely vocal and usually radical people do drive people away effectively stifle all other opposing views and generally take over clearly the purpose behind such actions is to deprive others of their freedom of speech through overt and covert coercion and domination of the media form in question while freedom of speech is to be valued this is not how would you suggest that this sort of reoccuring problem be alleviated more particularly how can this be controlled within the structure of these newsgroups tim clock ph d graduate student uci tel department of politics and society fax university of california irvine home tel irvine ca
talk.politics.mideast	re freedom in u s a dear mr beyer it is never wise to confuse freedom of speech with freedom of racism and violent deragatory it is unfortunate that many fail to understand this crucial distinction indeed i find the latter in absolute and complete contradiction to the former racial invective tends to create an atmosphere of intimidation where certain individuals who belong to the group under target group do not feel the ease and liberty to exercise their fundamental freedom of speech this brand of vilification is not sanctioned under freedom of speech salam john absood marlow ceased and sat apart indistinct and silent in the pose of a meditating buddha nobody moved for a time the offing was barred by a black bank of clouds and the tranquil waterway leading to the utter most ends of the earth flowed sombre under an overcast sky seemed to
talk.politics.mideast	re binyamin netanyahu on cnn tonight in article c j qz mne world std com mkaye world std com martin kaye writes great interview with benjamin netanyahu on cnn larry king live this guy is knows what he is talking about he is truely charismatic articulate intelligent and demonstrates real leadership qualities i agree but i wish i liked his politics stewart m clamen internet clamen cs cmu edu school of computer science uucp uunet clamen cs cmu edu carnegie mellon university phone forbes avenue fax pittsburgh pa usa
talk.politics.mideast	re legality of the jewish purchase was re israeli expansion lust in article apr bnr ca zbib bnr ca writes adam shostack writes sam zbib writes i m surprised that you don t consider the acquisition of land by the jews from arabs for the purpose of establishing an exclusive state as a hostile action leading to war it was for the purpose of establishing a state not an exclusive state if the state was to be exclusive it would not have arab citizens could you please tell me what was the ethnic composition of israel right after it was formed and no i do not consider the purchase of land a hostile action when someone wants to buy land and someone else is willing to sell it at a mutually agreeable price then that is commerce it is not a hostile action leading to war no one in his right mind would sell his freedom and dignity palestinians are no exception perhaps you heard about anti trust in the business world since we are debating the legality of a commercial transaction we must use the laws governing the guidelines and ethics of such transactions basic anti trust law says that while you can purchase ibm stocks for the purpose of investing you can not acquire a large number of those shares with the intent or controlling ibm you can do so only if you make your intentions clear apriori clearly the jews who purchased properties from palastenians had some designs they were not buying a dwelling or a real estate they were establishing a bridgehead for the european jews the palastenians sold their properties to the jews in the old tradition of arab hospitality being a multi ethnic multi religious society accepting the jews as neighbours was no different just another religion plus they paid fair market value etc they did not know they were victims of an international conspiracy i m not a conspiracy theorist myself but this one is hard to dismiss right now i m just going to address this point when the jewish national fund bought most of its land it didn t buy it from the palestinians themselves because for the most part they were tenant farmers fallahin living on land owned by wealthy arabs in syria and lebanon the jnf offered a premium deal so the owners took advantage of it it s called commerce the owners however made no provisions for those who had worked for them basically shafting them by selling the land right out from under them they are to blame not the jews adam shostack adam das harvard edu sam zbib bell northern research bitnet internet zbib bnr ca voice fax surface mail stop p o box station c ottawa canada k y h my opinions are my own and no one else s amir
talk.politics.mideast	argic hey serdar man without a brain yare such a loser proline cosmo pro angmar internet cosmo pro angmar alfalfa com uucp uunet bu edu alphalpha pro angmar cosmo
talk.politics.mideast	serdar what are you retarded proline cosmo pro angmar internet cosmo pro angmar alfalfa com uucp uunet bu edu alphalpha pro angmar cosmo
talk.politics.mideast	serdar you are quite the loser proline cosmo pro angmar internet cosmo pro angmar alfalfa com uucp uunet bu edu alphalpha pro angmar cosmo
talk.politics.mideast	argic you definetly are in need of a shrink loser proline cosmo pro angmar internet cosmo pro angmar alfalfa com uucp uunet bu edu alphalpha pro angmar cosmo
talk.politics.mideast	serdar go back to nursery school jerk proline cosmo pro angmar internet cosmo pro angmar alfalfa com uucp uunet bu edu alphalpha pro angmar cosmo
talk.politics.mideast	serdar what are you stupid proline cosmo pro angmar internet cosmo pro angmar alfalfa com uucp uunet bu edu alphalpha pro angmar cosmo
talk.politics.mideast	argic you are brain damaged that hate of b fatransfer cancelledf yours courses through your sick body like poison it s just a matter of time your fate is sealed proline cosmo pro angmar internet cosmo pro angmar alfalfa com uucp uunet bu edu alphalpha pro angmar cosmo
talk.politics.mideast	re israel s expansion ii ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes first of all i never said the holocaust i said before the holocaust i m not ignorant of the holocaust and know more about nazi germany than most people maybe including you uh oh the first sign of an argument without merit the stating of one s qualifications in an area if you know something about nazi germany show it if you don t shut up simple as that i don t think the suffering of some jews during wwii justifies the crimes commited by the israeli government any attempt to call civil liberterians like myself anti semetic is not appreciated all jews suffered during wwii not just our beloved who perished or were tortured we all suffered second the name calling was directed against you not civil libertarians in general your name dropping of a fancy sounding political term is yet another attempt to cite qualifications in order to obfuscate your glaring unpreparedness for this argument go back to the minors junior
talk.politics.mideast	re remember those names come election time in article c ztet dwz cs cmu edu anwar cs cmu edu anwar mohammed writes in article c u qi mz apollo hp com nelson p apollo hp com peter nelson writes btw with bosnia s large moslem population why have nations like turkey saudi arabia syria egypt and others with either money or strong military forces not spoken out more forcibly or offered to help out bosnia obviously you really don t know they have spoken out cf sec y of state christopher s recent trip to the me note the clause more forcibly above my point is that they have made a few pro forma perfunctory remarks and sent in a few c s and so forth but it s clearly not something they re losing much sleep over they re just going through the motions while moslems are being ethnically cleansed out of what used to be yugoslavia the us has been speaking out far more loudly than the moslem nations in the un and other world forums besides there s no case that can be made for us military involvement there that doesn t apply equally well to say liberia angola or it appears with the khmer rouge s new campaign cambodia non whites don t count hmm some might say kuwaitis are non white ooops i forgot kuwaitis are oil rich loaded with petro dollars etc so they don t count precisely humanitarian concerns were not the primary justification for us involvement in the gulf oil and geopolitics were if the the kuwaitis didn t have oil and assuming iraq still saw fit to invade them i doubt you would have seen operation desert storm peter
talk.politics.mideast	re freedom in u s a in article apr virginia edu ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes i don t know where you guys are from but in america such attempts to curtail someones first amendment rights are not appreciated here we let everyone speak their mind regardless of how we feel about it take your fascistic repressive ideals back to where you came from hey tough guy freedom necessitates responsibility and no freedom is absolute btw to anyone who defends arafat read on open fire on the new jewish immigrants be they from the soviet union ethiopia or anywhere else i give you my instructions to use violence against the immigrants i willjail anyone who refuses to do this yassir arafat al muharar at least he s not racist just anti jewish pete
talk.politics.mideast	re freedom in u s a mr freeman please find something more constructive to do with your time rather than engaging in fantasy not that i have a particular affinty to arafat or anything john marlow ceased and sat apart indistinct and silent in the pose of a meditating buddha nobody moved for a time the offing was barred by a black bank of clouds and the tranquil waterway leading to the utter most ends of the earth flowed sombre under an overcast sky seemed to
talk.politics.mideast	re remember those names come election time in article c ztk dyi cs cmu edu anwar cs cmu edu anwar mohammed writes i said in article c u qi mz apollo hp com nelson p apollo hp com peter nelson writes besides there s no case that can be made for us military involvement there that doesn t apply equally well to say liberia angola or it appears with the khmer rouge s new campaign cambodia non whites don t count hmm some might say kuwaitis are non white ooops i forgot kuwaitis are oil rich loaded with petro dollars etc so they don t count and let s not forget somalia which is about as far from white as it gets and why are we in somalia when right across the gulf of aden are some of the wealthiest arab nations on the planet why does the us always become the point man for this stuff i don t mind us helping out but what invariably happens is that everybody expects us to do most of the work and take most of the risks even when these events are occuring in other people s back yards and they have the resources to deal with them quite well thank you i mean it s not like either serbia or somalia represent some overwhelming military force that their neighbors can t handle nor are the logistics a big deal it s a lot bigger logistical challenge to get troops and supplies from new york to somalia than from saudi arabia harder to go from texas to serbia than turkey or austria to serbia peter
talk.politics.mideast	re israel s expansion ii waldo cybernet cse fau edu writes ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes first of all i never said the holocaust i said before the holocaust i m not ignorant of the holocaust and know more about nazi germany than most people maybe including you uh oh the first sign of an argument without merit the stating of one s qualifications in an area if you know something about nazi germany show it if you don t shut up simple as that i don t think the suffering of some jews during wwii justifies the crimes commited by the israeli government any attempt to call civil liberterians like myself anti semetic is not appreciated all jews suffered during wwii not just our beloved who perished or were tortured we all suffered second the name calling was directed against you not civil libertarians in general your name dropping of a fancy sounding political term is yet another attempt to cite qualifications in order to obfuscate your glaring unpreparedness for this argument go back to the minors junior all humans suffered emotionally some jews and many others suffered physically it is sad that people like you are so blinded by emotions that they can t see the facts thanks for calling me names it only assures me of what kind of ignorant people i am dealing with i included your letter since i thought it demonstrated my point more than anything i could write
talk.politics.mideast	re freedom in u s a jaa cunixa cc columbia edu writes dear mr beyer it is never wise to confuse freedom of speech with freedom of racism and violent deragatory it is unfortunate that many fail to understand this crucial distinction in fact if a speach was not offensive to some its protection under freedom of speach laws would be useless it is speach that some find questionable that must be protected be it religiously blasphemous or inherently racist it is only through civilized discourse and not scare tactics that one can enlighten those that one perceives to be ignorant that is the idea behind freedom of expression what you find offensive might be perceived as truth by some and what they might find offensive might be your belief it is only through free exchange of ideas and insults as the case seems to be with this channel that one can change another s erring ways that is why jefferson said that here we are not afraid to tolerate error so long as reason is left to combat it
talk.politics.mideast	re israel s expansion ii from article pp a auvm american edu by paul h pimentel pp a auvm american edu what gives isreal the right to keep jeruseleum it is the home of the muslim a s well as jewish religion among others heck nobody ever mentions what yitza k shamir did forty or fifty years ago which is terrorize westerners much in the way abdul nidal does today seems isrealis are nowhere above arabs so theref ore they have a right to jerusaleum as much as isreal does there is one big difference between israel and the arabs christians in this respect israel allows freedom of religion avi
talk.politics.mideast	gaza and separation from israel from center for policy research cpr subject gaza and separation from israel gaza and the idea of separation the israeli left s inability to cope with the challenges it is presented with by reality becomes obvious at those moments when the reality does not line up with the expectations of the left we were able to see this clearly during the gulf war because of the palestinian s popular solidarity with iraq yossi sarid currently minister of the environment made his infamous statement you look for me i e i am not making any more efforts to speak with you from yossi sarid s point of view palestinian reality during the gulf war was not the lengthy curfew or the danger of hunger it brought with it but whether or not the palestinians accepted what was acceptable to the party similarly meretz mk deddi tzuker recently faced with criticism from residents of the west bank town of beit sahour over his government s and his party s lack of action for human rights and peace responded by asking those present at the discussion whether they would rather have a likud government from the leftists perspective this is the best government because it is their government regardless of what it does these members of the israeli left have already decided how the future of the occupied territories will look and they want to dictate to the palestinians how to get there an essential step towards this future is their participation in yitzhak rabin s government and from their point of view the expulsions were a marginal byproduct of this government of peace which need not disturb the routine course of events likewise the rabinic policies in gaza the blowing up of houses with anti tank rockets and the significant increases in the number of persons injured in the suppression of demonstrations need not disturb it but the fact that reality is not as they would have it forces itself upon them when a mob in gaza falls upon a settler who has lost his way when a settler is stabbed by his palestinian workers or when a palestinian knifes people in the streets of tel aviv then all hell breaks loose and the israeli left has nothing to propose except separation let s cut ourselves off from the palestinians let s build a fence so high that they won t be able to harm us this is the cry of the israeli left let us erect a fence between us and the reality whith is the occupation meron benvenisti writes about this in ha aretz the liberal left which does not differentiate between physical separation and the future of the territories must come to understand that the regime of magnetic cards exclusion of arab workers closure and curfew are instruments of enforcement designed for the suppression of a population in revolt and that their ideological support for separation only provides humanitarian arguments for the legitimization of the status quo enforced separation is carried out only to meet the need of the ruling community but it is only the ruled population which bears its burden whoover thinks that out of gaza first is a liberal humanitarian idea had best contemplate the question of whether this position is also moral it is very easy to shake off responsibility for this concentration of human suffering and to thus also disregard responsibility for it s creation it is very easy to erect a fence between jewish and arab neighborhoods in jerusalem when this fence has a gate the keys to which are at the disposal of one hand which opens to allow the jews to pursue all their interests but is barred to the arabs from the other front jerusalem march
talk.politics.mideast	conf mideast levant from center for policy research cpr subject conf mideast levant rights of children violated by the state of israel selected articles of the iv geneva convention of article no physical or moral coercion shall be exercised against protected persons in particular to obtain information from them or from third parties article the high contracting parties specifically agree that each of them is prohibited from taking any measure of such a character as to cause the physical suffering or extermination of protected persons in their hands this prohibition applies not only to murder torture corporal punishment but also to any other measures of brutality whether applied by civilian or military agents article no protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed collective penalties and likewise measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited article taking of hostages is prohibited article individual or mass forcible transfers as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the occupying power or to that of any other country occupied or not are prohibited regardless of their motive article the occupying power shall with the cooperation of the national and local authorities facilitate the proper working of all institutions devoted to the care and education of children article any destruction by the occupying power of real or personal property belonging individually or collectively to private persons or to the state or to other public authorities or to social or cooperative organizations is prohibited except where such destruction is rendered absolutely necessary by military operations ps it is obvious that violations of the above articles are also violations of the international convention of the rights of the child
talk.politics.mideast	assistance to palest people from center for policy research cpr subject assistance to palest people u n general assembly resolution of december assistance to the palestinian people the general assembly recalling its resolution of december taking into account the intifadah of the palestinian people in the occupied palestinian territory against the israeli occupation including israeli economic and social policies and practices rejecting israeli restrictions on external economic and social assistance to the palestinian people in the occupied palestinian territory concerned about the economic losses of the palestinian people as a result of the gulf crisis aware of the increasing need to provide economic and social assistance to the palestinian people affirming that the palestinian people cannot develop their national economy as long as the israeli occupation persists takes note of the report of the secretary general on assistance to the palestinian people expresses its appreciation to the states united nations bodies and intergovernmental and non governmental organizations that have provided assistance to the palestinian people requests the international community the united nations system and intergovernmental and non governmental organizations to sustain and increase their assistance to the palestinian people in close cooperation with the palestine liberation organization plo taking in account the economic losses of the palestinian people as a result of the gulf crisis calls for treatment on a transit basis of palestinian exports and imports passing through neighbouring ports and points of exit and entry also calls for the granting of trade concessions and concrete preferential measures for palestinian exports on the basis of palestinian certificates of origin further calls for the immediate lifting of israeli restrictions and obstacles hindering the implementation of assistance projects by the united nations development programme other united nations bodies and others providing economic and social assistance to the palestinian people in the occupied palestinian territory reiterates its call for the implementation of development projects in the occupied palestinian territory including the projects mentioned in its resolution of december calls for facilitation of the establishment of palestinian development banks in the occupied palestinian territory with a view to promoting investment production employment and income therein requests the secretary general to report to the general the general assembly at its th session through the economic and social council on the progress made in the implementation of the present resolution in favour countries europe canada australia new zealand japan africa south america central america and asia against united states and israel abstaining none
talk.politics.mideast	h r violations by israel arab st many of you ask me whether i approve of severe human rights violations by arab states becuse i focus on israeli human rights violations let s make things clear my opposition to h r violations in arab states is total and without qualification no arab state is and can claim to be democratic no arab state claims to be democratic i am born in palestine now israel i have family there the lack of peace and utter injustice in my home country has affected me all my life i am concerned by palestine israel because i want peace to come to it peace and justice if anybody has legitimate claims towards arab states he should present his claims and ask for support jews who left arab states are fully entitled to make claims and should do so if they consider their case has a merit it is their basic right to return to these countries if they wish if not they should not complain and compare themselves to the palestinians who have been struggling for the right of return since israel was established and whose right is upheld by the united nations quasi totally if jews feel discriminated in arab countries they have a legitimate claim that any decent person can and should support human rights violations by arab states don t justify legitimate nor are the cause for israeli breaches of international law and human rioghts israeli breaches stem from the zionist concept which can only be implemented by negating basic rights to palestinians israeli trights and palestinian rights are not symmetrical the first party has a state and the other has none the first is an occupier and the second the occupied for any meaningful relationship to emerge some symmetry must be established as long as israelis and jews don t realise the necessity of a change of perspective towards the palestinian people and as long as israelis and jews don t want to exorcise their own past towards the palestinians the naqba of etc and refuse to acknowledge that the creation of israel was dependent upon the removal of most palestinian arabs there will be no base for a real trust when i read the first time the list of the arab villages destroyed by the state of israel in and after i got a shock i hope others will be touched by this discovery and think about the meaning of such massive destruction and destitution elias davidsson iceland
talk.politics.mideast	desertification of the negev from center for policy research cpr subject desertification of the negev the desertification of the arid negev by moise saltiel i p march i the negev bedouin before and after ii jewish agricultural settlement in the negev iii development of the negev s rural population iv economic situation of jewish settlements in v failure in settling the arava valley vi failure in settling the central mountains vii failure in making the negev bedouinenrein cleansing the negev of bedouins viii transforming bedouin into low paid workers ix failure in settling the development towns x jordan water to the negev a strategic asset xi the negev becomes a dumping ground xii the dimona nuclear plant xiii the negev as a military base xiv the negev in the year just after the creation of the state of israel the phrase the jewish pioneers will make the desert bloom was trumpeted throughout the western world after the six day war in david ben gurion declared in a letter to charles de gaulle it s by our pioneering creation that we have transformed a poor and arid land into a fertile land created built up areas towns and villages in abandoned desert areas contrary to ben gurion s assertion it must be affirmed that during the years of the british mandate over palestine and for centuries previous a productive human presence was to be found in all parts of the negev desert in the very arid hills and valleys of the southern negev as well as in the more fertile north these were the bedouin arabs the real desertification of the negev mainly in the southern part occurred after israel s dispossession of the bedouin s cultivated lands and pastures nowadays the majority of the square kilometer negev which represents percent of the state of israel pre borders has been desertified beyond recognition the main new occupiers of the formerly bedouin negev are the israeli army the nature reserves authority whose chief role is to prevent bedouin from roaming their former pasture lands and vast industrial zones including nuclear reactors and dumping grounds for chemical nuclear and other wastes israeli jews in the negev today cultivate less than half the surface area cultivated by the bedouin before and there is no jewish pastoral activity i agricultural and pastoral activities of the negev bedouin before and after in according to british mandatory statistics the beersheba sub district which corresponds more or less to israel s negev or southern district had inhabitants almost all bedouin arabs who held camels cows and oxen sheep and goats the majority of the bedouin lived a more or less sedentary life in the north where precipitation ranged between and mm per year in they cultivated about hectares of the beersheba district i e percent of its total area and more than double the area cultivated by the negev s jewish settlers after years of making the desert bloom the bedouin had a very low crop yield to kilograms of barley per hectare during rainy years and their farming techniques were primitive but production was based solely on animal and human labor it must also be underscored that animal production although low was based entirely on pasturing production increased considerably during the rainy years and diminished significantly during drought years all bedouin pasture animals goats camels and sheep had the ability to gain weight quickly over the relatively rainy winters and to withstand many waterless days during the hot summers these animals were the result of a centuries old process of natural selection in harsh local conditions after the creation of the state of israel percent of the negev bedouin were expelled to the sinai or to southern jordan the who were allowed to remain were confined to a territory of hectares in a region were annual mean precipiation was mm a quantity low enough to ensure a crop failure two years out of three the rare water wells in the south and central negev spring of life in the desert were cemented to prevent bedouin shepherds from roaming a few bedouin shepherds were allowed to stay in the central negev but after when the sinai was returned to egypt these bedouin were also eliminated at the same time strong pressure was applied on the bedouin to abandon cultivation of their fields in order that the land could be transferred to the army no reliable statistics exist concerning the amount of land held today by negev bedouin it is a known fact that a large part of the hectares they cultivated in the s has been seized by the israeli authorities indeed most of the bedouin are now confined to seven development towns or sowetos established for them the rest of the article is available from elias davidsson email elias ismennt is
talk.politics.mideast	zionism racism from center for policy research cpr subject zionism racism diaspora a cancer by julian kossoff and lindsay schusman in jewish chronicle london dec leading israeli author and cultural commentator a b yehoshua launched a ferocious attack on diaspora jewry at a zionist youth council meeting in north london last week the diaspora he claimed was the cancer connected to the main tissue of the jewish people he was scathing about its failure to act before the holocaust he said the diaspora s religious and secular leadership had ignored the warning signs in the s and had fiercely opposed zionism consequently he considered the holocaust the failure of judaism his talk entitled diaspora a neurotic solution covered years of jewish history mr yehoshua s other targets included soviet jews who were he said not staying in israel but running away and all jews outside israel who were using other people s countries like hotels the only conclusion he could draw was that the diaspora was immoral because it looked to israel for its identity but lived elsewhere worse it threatened israel itself creating a distraction for her citizens who were leaving by the thousands mr yehoshua who described himself as a soldier for aliyah ended by calling for the creation of a new total jew living in israel earlier speaking at a meeting of jewish students on the difficulties of forging a national identity in israeli literature mr yehoshua claimed that israeli writers were paralyzed by the country s political situation he said israel s wars had once provided writers with a vital source of inspiration today israeli writers avoided writing directly about the arab israeli conflict no major work had been produced about the intifada instead writers were tackling themes such as jewish identity emigration from israel and personal and family issues mr yehoshua admitted he also felt unable to write about the israeli political situation he could no longer step into an israeli arab s shoes and portray him as a real flesh and blood character he claimed that after years of statehood the problem of israeli identity had not been solved he said jews remained too pre occupied with the borders of identity between jew and non jew and were not concerned with the nature of that identity jewish values in israel embraced every aspect of daily life unlike in the diaspora where jews had no responsibility for the country they lived in he said he warned that modern hebrew a unifying force for the jewish people would have to struggle for its future especially in literary circles it faced fierce competition from the english language
talk.politics.mideast	poem by erich fried from center for policy research cpr subject poem by erich fried poem by german jewish poet erich fried holocaust survivor ein jude an die zionistischen kaempfer von erich fried was wollt ihr eigentlich wollt ihr wirklich die uebertreffen die euch niedergetreten haben vor einem menschenalter in euer eigenes blut und in euren eigenen kot wollt ihr die alten foltern jetzt an andere weitergeben mit allen blutigen dreckigen einzelheiten mit allem brutalen genuss die folterknechte wie unsere vaeter sie damals erlitten haben wollt jetzt wirklich ihr die neue gestapo sein die neue wehrmacht die neue sa and ss und aus den palaestinensern die neuen juden machen aber dann will auch ich weil ich damals vor fuenfzig jahren selbst als ein judenkind gepeinigt wurde von euren peinigern ein neuer jude sein mit diesen neuen juden zu denen ihr die palaestinenser macht und ich will sie zurueckfuehren helfen als freie menschen in ihr eigenes land palaestina aus dem ihr sie vertrieben habt oder in dem ihr sie quaelt ihr hakenkreuzlehrlinge ihr narren und wechselbaelge der weltgeschichte denen der davidstern auf euren fahnen sich immer schneller verwandelt in das verfluchte zeichen mit den vier fuessen das ihr nun nicht sehen wollt aber dessen weg ihr heut geht
talk.politics.mideast	re the u s holocaust memorial museum a costly and dangerous mistake in article c ut s xa bony bony com jake bony bony com jake livni writes through private contributions on federal land your hate mongering article is devoid of current and historical fact intellectual content and social value down the toilet it goes and we all know what an unbiased source the nyt is when it comes to things concerning israel neither the times nor the trained seals who have responded thus far seem to recognize the statement that these private funds were all tax exmpt in otherwords american taxpayers put up at least of the money and finalyy how does federal land mitigate the offensiveness of this alien monument dedicated to perpetuating pitty and the continual flow of tax money to a foreign entity that federal land and tax money could have been used to commerate americans or better yet to house homeless americans
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli terrorism in article rd eo a usenet ins cwru edu anas omran writes anas there are many neutral human rights organizations which always report anas on the situation in the o t but as most people used to see on tv the anas israelis do not allow them to go deep there in the o t the israelis anas used to arrest and sometimes to kill some of these neutral reporters anas so this is another kind of terrorism committed by the jews in palestine anas they do not allow fair and neutral coverage of the situation in anas palestine bring me one case where israeli soldiers deliberately killed a neutral reporter this is another one of your wet dreams unlike many countries israel does allow reporters in and out of the o t that is what the problem is if israel were a country like china then nothing would transpire from what is happening in the o t but there seems to be a proliferation of journalists in israel always trying to show how evil the israeli monster is arab countries don t allow journalists anywhere we have yet to hear about the massacres of kurds the destruction and annihilation of hama the killings of moslem fundamentalists in mosques in egypt and algeria etc why is it we only get state reports how accurate are they anas go give a lesson of freedom of speech to your arab bretheren before telling us what to do tsiel tsiel ohayon jcpl co jp if you do not receive this e mail please let me employer may not have same know as soon as possible if possible opinions if any two percent of zero is almost nothing
talk.politics.mideast	re desertification of the negev this is nonsense i lived in the negev for many years and i can say for sure that no beduins were moved or harmed in any way on the contrary their standard of living has climbed sharply many of them now live in rather nice permanent houses and own cars there are quite a few beduin students in the ben gurion university there are good friendly relations between them and the rest of the population all the beduins i met would be rather surprised to read mr davidson s poster i have to say danny keren
talk.politics.mideast	accounts of anti armenian human right violations in azerbaijan accounts of anti armenian human right violations in azerbaijan prelude to current events in nagorno karabakh i saw a naked girl with her hair down they were dragging her she kept falling because they were pushing her and kicking her she fell down it was muddy there and later other witnesses who saw it from their balconies told us they seized her by the hair and dragged her a couple of blocks as far as the mortgage bank that s a good block and a half or two from here i know this for sure because i saw it myself deposition of tatyana mikhailovna arutunian nezhintseva born train conductor azerbaijani railroad resident at building apartment microdistrict no sumgait azerbaijan i hadn t lived very long in sumgait only eight years i moved there from novosibirsk my son entered the baku nautical school and so i transferred to azerbaijan later i met someone and married him and now my name is arutunian my husband s name that there would be a massacre was not discussed openly but there were hints and gibes so to speak at the armenian people and they were mocking the russians too i was constantly aware of it at work and not just this past year i couldn t find a definite place for myself in the pool at work because i i ll just say it couldn t steal couldn t deceive and couldn t be involved in bribe taking and when i asked for decent working conditions they told me leave don t keep the others from working you aren t cut out for this kind of work and at work and around all the time i would hear gibes at the armenians like the turks had it right they killed them all the way they ve multiplied here they re making it hard for us to live and things will be just fine if we get rid of them all no problem the turks will help they say if we ask them they ll rid armenia of armenians in half an hour well that s the way it all was but i never thought of course that it would spill over into a bloody tragedy because you just couldn t imagine it here we ve been living under the soviet government for years and no one even considered such an idea possible but i had been forming my own opinions and in the presence of authoritative people i would often ask where is this all leading do people really not see what kind of situation is emerging here the russians are fleeing sumgait there are very few of them left why is no one dealing with this what s going on and when it all happened on the th and th it became clear that everything had been arranged by someone because what else are you to make of it if the first secretary of the city party committee is marching ahead of the demonstration with an azerbaijani flag i wouldn t be saying this now if i hadn t received personal confirmation from him later because when we were under guard in the sk club on the st he came to the club that muslimzade the women told me there he is there he is that s muslimzade i didn t believe the rumors that he had carried an azerbaijani flag i thought that they were just false rumors i went over to him and said are you the first secretary of our city party committee he answers me yes and i ask him tell me did you really march ahead of that gang carrying an azerbaijani flag and behind you they were carrying denigrating signs i don t know exactly what they said but there was mention of armenian blood and he tells me yes i was there but i tried to dissuade them from it then i asked him another question and where were you when they were burning and slaughtering us and he said i we didn t know what to do we didn t know we didn t anticipate that that would happen in sumgait comrade mamedov the first deputy chairman of the council of ministers of the azerbaijani ssr answered the same question for me no we actually didn t anticipate the slaughter in sumgait at that time we were trying to contain the crowd of in baku that was preparing for a massacre those are his exact words the ones he said in the office of the council of ministers of the armenian ssr and now about the events themselves of course it s painful to discuss them because it may seem that it s not true to someone else various rumors concerning what happened are making the rounds some are true others aren t but unfortunately there are more true ones than false because it was so horrible in our age here in the space age the age of science the age of progress i don t know if someone had told me this story if i were living in or around moscow i wouldn t have believed it why not because it was really a genocide it was a massacre that s genuinely what it was for example on that day the th i didn t know about the th because my husband and i were both sick both of us had the flu and we were in bed on the th our neighbor comes to our place and says you re in bed you don t know anything about it there was a demonstration in town and after it they were overturning armenian cars and burning them they were looking into cars and asking are you an armenian if they answered in armenian then they turned the car over and burned it this isn t made up the wife of the senior investigator of the baku ministry of internal affairs told us he was returning home from his dacha with his wife raisa sevastyanova she s my neighbor she immediately came and told lis that they had landed right in the middle of it i don t know what to call it the cavalcade of automobiles they were stopping he answered in azerbaijani they let them go but they made him honk the horn they were kicking up a fracas we didn t even believe it and i said certainly that didn t happen how can that be and she said muslimzade was leading the crowd and the sputnik store was completely smashed because most of the salespeople there are armenians and when he saw that they had started breaking the glass in that store he said don t break the shop windows don t destroy state property but do whatever else you want i didn t hear this with my own two ears but it is a fact that the store was torn up and the director of the store was beaten for employing armenians although he s an azerbaijani while we were talking all of a sudden right across from us sevastyanova is the first to look out the window and say look there s a crowd out there and sure enough when we looked out there we saw that the crowd had already started wrecking the neighboring building there was an armenian family there a woman and two girls they lived across from us i m sorry i don t know the building number or the people s names since we were in my husband s apartment in microdistrict and i lived in microdistrict no there was awful looting going on there at the time the most hideous things were going on there then one building there ours was attacked twice once wasn t enough for them they returned to the places where they hadn t finished the armenians off if an azerbaijani family dared to conceal armenians they beat the azerbaijanis too they also beat russians if it was russians doing the hiding because there were russians among them they said so on television there were people of various nationalities but they didn t tell us why there were people of different nationalities because they wouldn t have touched the azerbaijanis if they hadn t dared to stick up for the armenians and give them temporary shelter in their homes at the time i saw this from the window i was there sevastyanova was there and so was my husband we went out onto the balcony and saw a television fly off a balcony all kinds of things even a sofa then when it was all down there they burned it up then we saw the crowd and they were all oohing at first i couldn t figure out what was happening and later i told my husband lendrush l think they re beating someone out there and he answered i don t know could be suddenly the crowd separated for a moment and i saw it and raisa sevastyanova saw it too my husband had turned the other way he didn t see it i saw a naked girl with her hair down they were dragging her she kept falling because they were pushing her and kicking her she fell down it was muddy there and later other witnesses who saw it from their balconies told us they seized her by the hair and dragged her a couple of blocks as far as the mortgage bank that s a good block and a half or two from here i know this for sure because i saw it myself then the crowd rushed toward our building we were standing there and you can of course imagine what we were feeling were they going to kill us or not and i also had the awful thought that they might torment me the way they tormented that woman because i had just seen that i asked my husband i gave him an axe and said you kill me first and then let them do what they want with the corpse but our neighbors it s true defended us they said there aren t any armenians in our entryway go away only muslims live here disaster missed us that time but at two o clock in the morning a crowd of about people approximately came back to our place my husband was already asleep he can sleep when he s upset about something but i can t i was standing running from balcony to balcony our power was out i don t remember for how long but it was as though it had been deliberately turned off there were no lights whatsoever and i was glad of course i thought it was better that way but then i look and the crowd is at our balcony this was at in the morning the first time they were at our building it was and now it was in the morning but i never thought that that old woman on the first floor the azerbaijani was awake and watching out there were human beings among them too so she goes out with a pail of garbage as though she needed to be taking garbage out at two o clock in the morning she used it as a pretext and went toward those young people they really were youngsters from my balcony you could see perfectly that they were young azerbaijani boys they spoke azerbaijani and when they came up to her she said what do you want and they answered we want the armenian family that lives here pointing toward the second floor with their hands she says i already told you we don t have any armenians here now leave do you hear this is an old muslim woman talking to you and grabbed the hand of one boy who was trying to walk around her and enter the building anyway and started pushing him away and so they seemed to listen to her they were all very young they started apologizing and left that was the second time death was at our door i forgot to mention about one other apartment a man named rubik lives there i don t know him really i knew his daughter i mean i saw her around but we really didn t know them but i do know that that guy who lives on the fourth floor across from our entryway went to chernobyl and worked there for eight months to earn money can you imagine what that means he risked his life to earn x amount of money in order to better his family he bought new furniture and was getting ready to give his daughter s hand in marriage but alas everything was ruined by those creeps and scoundrels they threw everything out the windows and the rest we saw from our balcony how the neighbors on the left and right ran into the apartment and carried off everything that hadn t already been smashed or taken what is one to think of that it means that the parents in those families were in on it too unfortunately i came to be of the opinion that it was all organized and that everything had been foreseen in advance both the beating of the armenians and the stripping of apartments something on the order of we ll move the armenians out and take over their apartments i have worked honestly my whole life you can check everything about me i came as a patriot from china waited for nights on end in front of the consulate general of the ussr i came to my homeland as a patriot because i knew that the party and the komsomol were holy things but when i saw in sumgait that there wasn t anything holy about them that party membership was bought that komsomol members joined only for personal gain that there were no ideals no ideas god save me everything was being bought and sold i saw all of it and understood how they could allow that crap to go on like it did i can t talk any more about it the image of that beating when i went out of my own apartment they picked us up under soviet army guard they had arrived from all over to suppress that gang not only armenians but some russian families and their children too came out of their apartments and joined us because no normal person who had seen that could stay there with the situation the way it was and what s interesting is that when we left on the buses i rode and thought that at least one group of people for sure people would basically rise to the situation would have some compassion for the armenians would somehow understand the injustice of what was done but having analyzed and weighed the whole thing once i calmed down having thought it all through i came to a conclusion that is shared by many people if a lot of azerbaijanis didn t want their armenian neighbors to be killed and that basically depended on that muslimzade he said that he had wanted to calm them down then is it possible that he didn t have people at hand to whom he could whisper at the last minute go and announce it on television citizens of sumgait take what you can into your hands let s protect our neighbors from this massacre those crowds weren t such that there was no controlling them basically they were unarmed they didn t have firearms mostly they had knives they had all kinds of metal parts like armature shafts sharpened at the ends special rocks different to a degree that we noticed them there aren t rocks like those in sumgait soils they were brought from somewhere as though it were all specially planned so as i was saying i weighed it all out and if any of our neighbors had wanted to defend us why wasn t it arranged it means that the government didn t want to do it when the crowd was moving from the city party committee to the sputnik what there was no way of informing baku no there was no way it turns out the crowd was doing violence in our microdistrict i won t mention the things i didn t see myself i ll only talk about the things i myself witnessed they were in microdistrict beginning at o clock in the evening when i saw them from the other building and they were somewhere else until mid night or one o clock in the morning because at they came back to our building they hadn t completely finished making their predatory rounds of microdistrict when they returned to our building i told my husband lendrush now the police are probably going to come my god now the authorities are probably going to find out and come to our aid well alas no there were to be no authorities not a single policeman not a single fireman not a single ambulance came while they were raging as it turns out as we later found out beginning on the might of the th there were dead people ruined apartments and burned autos one car near the bus station it was burned and overturned it was probably there about four days everyone saw it and what went on in block those who live there know they saw from their balconies how they attacked the soldiers in the buses how they beat those poor unarmed soldiers and how on that square i can t remember the name of it where there is that fork coming from the bus station that intersection now i m upset and i can t think of the name there s a tall building there a story and from the balconies there people saw that butchery when the poor soldiers wearing only helmets with shields and those unfortunate clubs moved against that mob and when they fell those to year old boys ran up and using stones big heavy stones beat them to death on their heads who could have guessed that something like that could happen in the soviet union and under the soviet government the upshot is that this republic has not been under soviet control for a long time but no one wanted to pay any attention or get involved if you were to go and ask at my work many people would confirm that i tell the truth i ve been struggling for truth for five years there already the five years that i worked at the azerbaijani railroad some people there considered me a demagogue others who knows what some think i m an adventure seeker and some a prankster but i wanted everything to be right i would become outraged how can this be why is it people treat one another this way on a soviet railroad as though the azerbaijani railroad were azerbaijani property or the property of some magnate or some mafia if i want to i ll get you out of here if i want to i ll get rid of you if i want to i ll do something else and there s a black market price for everything in the most brazen way a coach to moscow costs so much a coach on a local train costs so much once when i was complaining to the head of the conductor s pool he had the nerve to tell me maybe you won t even believe this but this i m afraid i heard with my own ears tatyana just how long can you fight for something that you know will never have any effect you re alone against everyone so instead why don t you give more money to the chief conductor and everything will go fine for you i started to cry turned and left what else could i do where else could i go to complain i realized that everything was useless and the root of the whole thing is that it all goes on and no one wants to see it i filed a written complaint and they ground it into dust they destroyed it i still have a copy but what s the use when the general procuracy got involved with the investigation of the bloody sumgait affair in addition to the information about what i saw what i was a witness to i gave testimony about the mafia at the railroad they accepted my petition but i don t know if they re going to pursue it or not because you ll excuse me i no longer believe in the things i aspired to the things i believed in before it s all dead they just spit on my soul stomped on everything physically and most important spiritually because you can lose belongings that s nonsense that all comes with time but when your soul is spit upon and when the best in you your beliefs are destroyed it can be very difficult to restore them i want to tell of one incident i just don t know at the time i was in such a state that i didn t even take minor things into account here is an example of course it s not a minor one my neighbor raisa sevastyanova she has a son valery who is in the th grade in a school in microdistrict a boy vitaly danielian i don t know his last name goes to school with him or rather went to school with him i was just sitting in an apartment trying to make a phone call to moscow oh yes and there s one important detail when the massacre began for two to three hours the phones weren t working in armenian apartments and later in several russian and azerbaijani apartments but the fact of the matter is that service was shut off you could not call anywhere why again it means it was all planned how come service is cut off for no reason and the lights went off and those brats were raging as they liked they weren t afraid they ran about freely they that no one would slap their hands and no one would dare to stop them they knew it now i m going to tell about the incident so this little vitaly vitalik an armenian boy went to school with valery they were in the same class according to what valery and his neighbor pal said at the time i was in the same apartment as they were i sat at the phone waiting for the call to be put through a mob attacked the building where vitalik lived so valery ran to his mother and said mamma please let me go to vitalik s what if they kill him maybe he s still alive maybe we can bring him here and save him somehow he s a nice guy we all like him he s a good person he s smart his mother wouldn t let him go in tears she says valery you can t go because i am afraid he says mamma we can get around the crowd we ll just watch just have a look they made it through i don t know i think vitalik s parents lived in microdistrict no and when they got there they made a superficial deduction knowing that balconies and doors were being broken everywhere that you could see from the street which were the armenian apartments in the building they went here and there and looked and saw that the windows were intact and so they calmed down but even though the windows in that apartment were not broken everything inside was totally smashed and vitalik lay there with a broken skull and his mother and father had already been murdered little vitalik didn t even know they were dead so two weeks ago i don t know he was in critical condition no maybe it was longer we left sumgait on march spent some time in moscow and then we came to yerevan so it s been about a month already it s so hard to keep all this straight so valery the next day when he found out that vitalik s family has been killed and vitalik was ling in the semashko hospital in baku valery and his classmates got together and went to visit him but they wouldn t admit them telling them that he was in critical condition and that he was still in a coma they cried and left having also found out that the girl i saw being kicked and dragged was in that hospital too as it turns out she was brought there in serious condition but at least she was alive at the time when we got to the sk club we would see first one friend and then another throw ourselves into their arms and kiss them because you had wondered if these friends were alive or not if those friends were alive or not and when you saw them you were so glad to find out that the family had lived when you saw people you heard things that made your hair stand on end if you publish everything that happened it will be a hideous book a book of things it is even difficult to believe and those two girls who were raped were entirely black and blue the ones at the sk they know i m not lying that girlfriend came up to one of them and said what happened and she bared her breasts and they were completely covered in cigarette burns those rogues had put cigarettes out on her breasts after something like that i don t know how you can live in a city and look at the people in it now when we stayed at the military unit for a while they provided well basic conditions for us there the military unit is located in nasosny some six miles from sumgait and living there we met with a larger group of people there were about people at the unit you know there was a point when i couldn t even go outside because if you went outside you saw so much heartbreak around you and when you hear the false rumors yes by the way false rumors were spread in sumgait saying that the armenians around yerevan had destroyed azerbaijani villages and razed them to the ground with bulldozers i didn t know whether to believe it or not and people who don t know any better get the idea that it was all done in revenge but when i arrived in armenia and was in spitak and in spitak all those villages are not only intact but at that time had even been protected just in case they were guarded they got better food than did the inhabitants of spitak not a single person there died and no one is planning to harm them around yerevan all the villages are safe and unharmed and the armenians didn t attack anyone but actually after an evil of the magnitude suffered in sumgait there could have been a feeling of vengefulness but no one acted on it and i don t know why you sometimes hear accusations to the effect that the armenians are guilty that it is they who organized it rumors like that are being spread in azerbaijan and if one old person says it and ten young ones hear it they not only perceive it with their minds but with their hearts too to them it seems that the older person is telling the truth for example one says did you know that out of people killed by the way originally they said people but later they found a nd were azerbaijani and one was an armenian of course i m upset but it s utterly impossible to discuss such things and not become upset sometimes l forget things but i know i want to return to the time when we were in the sk club across from the city party committee when i saw muslimzade in the sk club building i went to him to ask because i couldn t believe that he had marched in the front carrying a banner i already mentioned this and if i repeat anything please excuse me i asked him why did you do that and why are you here now why did you come here to laugh at these women who are strewn about on the floor the overcrowding there was tremendous it was completely unsanitary and several of the children were already sick it s true the troops tried to make it livable for us they cooked for us on their field stoves and provided us with wonderful food but the thing is that their main job was to ferret out the gang that was still at it everywhere that was continuing its sordid affairs everywhere plus they were never given any direct orders they didn t know what they were authorized to do and not to do and it was only on march at five o clock in the evening that krayev himself the lieutenant general the city commandant of sumgait was given full authority and told everyone over a microphone from an armored personnel carrier that now he could do what he wanted to do as his heart advised him and relocate people to the military unit but that s not what i want to talk about now muslimzade characteristically tried to get me out of the sk building and take me to the city party committee which is across the square from the club he took me by the hand and said citizen don t worry we ll go and have a talk in my office i told him no after everything you ve done i don t believe one iota of what you say if i go to the city party committee i ll disappear and the traces of me will disappear too because you can t stand it when oh yes and there was another interesting detail from that meeting it was even very funny although at the time i wasn t up to laughing he was in a nice expensive hat and so as to put him to shame so to speak i said oh why did you come here all duded up like a london dandy you smell of good perfume you re in your starched shirt and you have your expensive hat on you came to ridicule the poor women and children who are lying on the floor who are already getting sick whose relatives have died did you come to laugh at them and the one who was accompanying him an azerbaijani i don t know who he was or what his title was he quickly snatched the hat off muslimzade s head and hid it then i said my god we re not marauders we re not you we didn t come to you with the intention of stealing well kill me kill me muslimzade says to me but i m not guilty kill me kill me but i m not guilty and i say ok fine you re not guilty have it your way but give us an answer we re asking you where were you when they were torturing and raping those poor women when they were killing the children burning things carrying on outrageously and wrecking all those apartments where were you then you know we didn t expect it we did not know what to do we didn t anticipate that something like that would happen in sumgait i started laughing and said it s truly funny he says what could i do we didn t know what to do and i say i m sorry but it ll be ridiculous if i tell you the first secretary of the city party committee shouldn t march out in front with a banner he should fall down so that the gang would have to cross over his dead body that s what you should have done that s the way it was during the war not a single party committee secretary compromised himself either he died or he led people into battle and what did you do you ran away you left you hid you marched with a flag because you were afraid excuse my language you feared for your own damned hide and when we ask you you tell us that you got confused and you ask me what you could have done that s right i told him the city party committee got confused all the party committees got confused the police got confused baku got confused they all lay in a faint for two weeks and the gang ran the show with impunity and if it weren t for the troops it wouldn t have been just two days there wouldn t be a single armenian left in sumgait for sure they would have finished their bloody affair because they brazenly went up to some russians too the ones who tried to say something to them and they told them as soon as we finish with the armenians we ll come after you too and by the way there was a colonel who took us to the military unit he was the one with the light blue collar tabs who flew in and two hours later arrived on an armored personnel carrier when we were at the sk and took us to the military unit and who later started moving us from the military unit we asked him what how what will come of us he openly said you know for us the main thing now is to catch that gang we ll finish that quickly you ll stay at the military unit for the time being and we ll decide later the general procuracy of the ussr arrived it consists of investigators from all cities there were some from stavropol from everywhere just everywhere because the affair was truly frightful about this by the way comrade katusev spoke as everyone knows he s the first deputy general procurator of the ussr when he gave us a speech from the armored personnel carrier at the military unit by the way he told us the honest truth because he couldn t not say it because he was still experiencing his first impressions of what he had seen and he said there was afghanistan and it was bad but sumgait it s horrible and the people who dared to do such a thing will be severely punished in accordance with our laws and that s a quote then one mother throws herself at him her two sons had died before her very eyes and says who will return my sons who is going to punish the culprits they tried to calm her down and he said in order for us to conduct a proper investigation in order that not a single scoundrel avoid responsibility you must help us because we don t know maybe there was someone else in the gang who is now being concealed in homes and maybe the neighbors know maybe someone saw something don t be afraid write about it in detail so that you re not afraid everyone knows that many of you are afraid having lived through such horrors they think that if they write the whole truth about let s say their neighbor or someone else that they will seek revenge later we re going to do it like this we re going to set up an urn and you can throw what you write in there we don t need to know who wrote it the names of the people who write won t be made public but we need all the information let each and every one not be afraid let each write what is necessary who they saw in that gang who made threats or shouted threatening gibes about the armenians you must describe all of these people and put the information into the urn two soldiers and a major guarded the urn and sure enough many people people who didn t even want to write i know one woman who asked me she came up and said you as a russian the same thing won t happen to you as will happen to me so please i ll give you the information and you please write it down for me so she was afraid and there were a lot like her but later after katusev made his speech she sat and wrote down everything she knew and we threw it all into the urn now we don t know if it will be of any use for a factual picture will emerge from all that information one person can lie but thousands can t lie thousands simply can t lie you have to agree with that a fact is a fact why for example should someone say that black is white if it is really black the first deputy chairman of the council of ministers of the azerbaijani ssr mamedov as i said was in yerevan my husband and i were at the council of ministers of the armenian ssr and found out that mamedov was present the one who had come to convince the people of sumgait to return to their previous dwellings to their old apartments we asked for a meeting with him and it was granted when we went to see him he tried to behave properly very politely delicately but when the truth was told right to his face and when i asked him some of the same questions i had asked muslimzade where were you personally when they were beating us now you re trying to convince us to return why didn t you think at the time that they were slaughtering us where it was all leading he says you re telling the truth let s not mince words you ve told me right to my face and i ll tell you straight i ll tell you the pure truth i was gotten out of bed in the evening the whole government was up including me and we were restraining a crowd of about in baku but we never expected that in a city like sumgait with its fine international record such a thing could happen we expected it in baku i say so that means you expected it all the same why were you expecting it and he says you know it just happened that way we were expecting it in baku we were trying to restrain it but in sumgait i say fine you didn t know for the first three or four hours but then you should have known why did no one help us and he says well ok we didn t know what to do and things like that basically it was the same story i got from muslimzade later when he said you go on back the situation in sumgait is favorable now everything is fine the armenians are friendly with the azerbaijanis to this l answered you know what i m speaking with you as a member of a neutral nation i have never argued with armenians or with azerbaijanis and i was an eyewitness you tell me please comrade mamedov i asked him what would you say about this honestly if you were being completely frank with us then he said yes i admit that i am honestly ashamed shame on the entire azerbaijani nation we have disgraced ourselves not only before the entire soviet union but before the whole world because now the voice of america and all the other foreign radio stations of various hues are branding us with all kinds of rumors too and i say there s nothing to add to what really happened i don t think it s possible to add anything more awful he says yes i agree with you i understand your pain it is truly an unfortunate occurrence i repeat that he said unfortunate occurrence and then he suddenly remembered himself what he was saying he had a pen in his hands he was fidgeting with it nervously and said oh excuse me a tragedy really i take this to mean that he really thinks it s an unfortunate occurrence and of course he says i understand that having gone through all this you can t return to sumgait but it s necessary to cool down and realize that all those people are being tried and he even gave a detail which i don t know if it matters or not that policemen were being tried specifically in relation to that bloody affair yes by the way there is another good detail how i was set up at work in baku after the events i went to an undergarment plant there was an azerbaijani working there and suddenly she tells me what they didn t nail your husband they screwed up i was floored i hadn t imagined that anyone in baku too could say something like that well after that i went up to see to my office i needed to find out about those days what was going to happen with them how they were going to put down those days from february to march and the administrator told me i don t know tatyana go to the head of the conductors pool be grateful if they don t put it down as unexcused absence i was really discouraged by this they all know that we were but a hair away from death and barely survived and here they re telling me that i was skipping work as though i was off enjoying myself somewhere i went to the office of the chief of the pool his last name is rasulov and he s had that position for many years incidentally he s a party member and is a big man in town and suddenly when i went to him and said comrade rasulov this is the way it was he looked at me askance and said and why are you he knows me by my previous last name why did you get wrapped up in this mess i say what do you mean why did i get wrapped up in this mess my husband s an armenian i tell him i have an armenian last name and he screwed up his face made a kind of a grimace as though he had eaten something sour and said i didn t expect that you would what did he mean by that and how should he behave the chief of the pool a man who supervises workers now it s true there was a reduction but for sure there are still conductors working for him and if someone who supervises a staff that size says things like that then what can you expect from a simple uneducated politically unsophisticated person he s going to believe any and all rumors that the armenians are like this the armenians are like that and so on by the way that mamedov now i m going back to mamedov s office when i asked him are you really going to guarantee the safety of our lives if we return to sumgait he answered yes you know i would guarantee them i don t want to take on too much i would guarantee them firmly for years but i won t guarantee them for longer than years i say so you ve got another thing like that planned for years from now so they ll be quiet and then in another years it ll happen again i couldn t contain myself any more and i also told him and how did it get to that point certainly you knew about it how they were treating the russians for example in baku and in sumgait how they were hounded from their jobs certainly you received complaints i wrote some myself why did no one respond to them why did everyone ignore what was going on didn t you prepare people for this by the way you treated them and he says you know you re finally starting to insult me he threw his pen on the desk maybe now you ll say i m a scoundrel too i say you know i m not talking about you because i don t know but about the ones who i do know i can say with conviction yes that comrade was involved in this that and that because i know for certain well anyway he assured us that here in yerevan there were false rumors that sumgait armenians were here and were in sumgait and had gotten back to work everyone was working he said and life was very good we drove about the town ourselves comrade arutiunian first secretary of the communist party of armenia ssr came from the council of ministers of armenian he came and brought information showing that everything was fine in sumgait when i asked mamedov how he had reached that conclusion he said well i walked down the street and i said walking down the street in any city even if i were to go to new york i would never understand the situation because i would be a guest i don t have any contact with people but if you spend days among some blue collar workers in such a way that they didn t know you were the first deputy chairman of the council of ministers you d hear something quite different i told him for example that i drew my conclusion when we left the military unit to look at our apartments they took us all in turns to pick things up since people had fled to the military unit they got on the bus just to save themselves as soon as possible how are the neighbors in the microdistrict how will they view us what do they think i thought maybe that in fact it wasn t something general of a mass nature some anti national something and when that bus took us to our building because it was the same bus while we were going up to our apartment an armed soldier accompanied us what does that say it speaks of the fact that if everything there were fine why do we need to have soldiers go there and come back with us going from apartment to apartment and in fact especially with the young people you could sense the delight at our misfortune the grins and they were making comments too and that was in the presence of troops when police detachments were in the microdistricts and armored personnel carriers and tanks were passing by and if people are taking such malicious delight when the situation is like that then what is it going to be like when they withdraw protection from the city altogether there will be more outrages of course perhaps not organized but in the alleys april yerevan reference the sumgait tragedy pogroms against armenians in soviet azerbaijan volume i eyewitness accounts edited by samuel shahmuradian forward by yelena bonner published by aristide d caratzas ny pages david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
talk.politics.mideast	absood to my fellow columbian i must ask why do you say that i engage in fantasies arafat is a terrorist who happens to have a lot of pull among palestinians can we ignore the two facts i doubt it peace roar lion roar and other niceties pete
talk.politics.mideast	re freedom in u s a ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes i have just started reading the articles in this news group there seems to be an attempt by some members to quiet other members with scare tactics i believe one posting said that all postings by one person are being forwarded to his server who keeps a file on him in hope that appropriate action might be taken i don t know where you guys are from but in america such attempts to curtail someones first amendment rights are not appreciated here we let everyone speak their mind regardless of how we feel about it take your fascistic repressive ideals back to where you came from freedom of speech does not mean that others are compelled to give one the means to speak publicly some systems have regulations prohibiting the dissemination of racist and bigoted messages from accounts they issue apparently that s not the case with virginia edu since you are still posting alan h stein astein israel nysernet org
talk.politics.mideast	re argic in article dj pro angmar alfalfa com cosmo pro angmar alfalfa com frank benson writes you definetly are in need of a shrink loser hey cheesedicks stop sending messages to a guy who s not going to read them and who cares anyway
talk.politics.mideast	re the u s holocaust memorial museum a costly and dangerous mistake in article smith apr minerva harvard edu steven smith writes dgannon techbook techbook com dan gannon writes the u s holocaust memorial museum a costly and dangerous mistake by theodore j o keefe holocaust revisionism theodore j o keefe is an editor with the institute for historical review educated at harvard university according to the harvard alumni directory mr o keefe failed to graduate you may decide for yourselves if he was indeed educated anywhere forgive any inaccuracies i deleted the original post isn t this the same person who wrote the book and was censured in canada a few years back peg
talk.politics.mideast	re who should be spied on in article c vzdv mxw cs cmu edu anwar cs cmu edu anwar mohammed writes in article c sdck n news cso uiuc edu eshneken ux cso uiuc edu edward a shnekendorf writes anwar cs cmu edu anwar mohammed writes in article bimacs bitnet ehrlich bimacs bitnet gideon ehrlich writes the readers of this forum seemed to be more interested in the contents of those files so it will be nice if yigal will tell us why do american authorities consider yigal arens to be dangerous adl authorities seem to view a lot of people as dangerous including the millions of americans of arab ancestry perhaps you can answer the question as to why the adl maintained files and spied on adc members in california and elsewhere friendly rivalry perhaps come on most if not all arabs are sympathetic to the palestinian war against israel that is why the adl monitors arab organizations that is the same reason the us monitored communist organizations and soviet nationals only a few years ago the adc is an organization of arab americans let me see you re saying that most if not all arab americans should be spied on you re also saying that most if not all arab americans should be views as a national security threat to israel and the us as you gratuitously imply in your reference to the wtc bombing in which no arab americans were involved by inference can we assume that you think that anyone of arab lineage anywhere in the world poses a threat to israel and therefore should be spied on like it or not edward anwar has a very good valid point obviously in presenting it he quite legitimately and deliberately takes a point of view to an extreme which might not have been what you intended but that is one of the best ways to demonstrate a slippery slope type of argument which i believe was his aim i very frankly believe that the adl will be proved innocent in this case i doubt there s enough evidence to weigh against them even in a civil court where preponderance of the evidence not evidence beyond any reasonable doubt is the standard for winning such a case that however does not prevent me from seeing the merit in anwar s point rest deleted how sad to see a model of decorum and tranquillity become like any other sport a battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee tim rice chess eric s perlman perlman qso colorado edu center for astrophysics and space astronomy university of colorado boulder
talk.politics.mideast	re israel s expansion ii in article pp a auvm american edu paul h pimentel pp a auvm american edu writes what gives isreal the right to keep jeruseleum it is the home of the muslim a s well as jewish religion among others heck nobody ever mentions what yitza k shamir did forty or fifty years ago which is terrorize westerners much in the way abdul nidal does today seems isrealis are nowhere above arabs so theref ore they have a right to jerusaleum as much as isreal does what gives the united states the right to keep washington d c
talk.politics.mideast	hamza does it again hamza answers one of my articles to if indeed israeli soldiers killed a hamas mujahid with an anti tank to missile then i m almost sure that the terrorist zionists would not to have been able to cut up a body which was probably desintegrated by the to missile hamza maybe the missile didn t hit directly such that his body hamza gets desintegrated of course destroying houses to hamza kill someone is not a surgical operation or is it well done hamza you edited my answer to anas omran took everything out of context and then replied to it the way you wanted now i really understand why the peace process is not making any progress you guys ain t listening just babbling away to your same old rhetoric tsiel
talk.politics.mideast	re american jewish congress open letter to clinton in article apr vxcrna cern ch casper vxcrna cern ch casper davi ppe writes i said the fixation on bosnia is due to it being in a european country rather than the third world i recall before we did anything for somalia apparent left wingers saying that the reason everyone was more willing to send troops to bosnia than to somalia was because the somalis are third worlders who americans consider unworthy of help they suddenly shut up when the us decided to send troops to the opposite place than that predicted by the theory i am a staunch republican btw the irony of arguing against military intervention with arguments based on vietnam has not escaped me i was opposed to us intervention in somalia for the same reasons although clearly it was not nearly as risky based on the same reasons you mean you were opposed to us intervention in somalia because since somalia is a european country instead of the third world the desire to help somalia is racist i don t think this same reason applies to somalia at all the whole point is that somalia is a third world country and we were more willing to send troops there than to bosnia exactly the opposite of what the fixation on european countries theory would predict similarly the desire to help muslims being fought by christians is also exactly the opposite of what that theory predicts for that matter this theory of yours suggests that americans should want to help the serbs after all they re christian and the muslims are not if the desire to intervene in bosnia is based on racism against people that are less like us why does everyone want to help the side that is less like us especially if both of the sides are equal as you seem to think well one thing you have to remember is the press likes a good story good for business don t you know and btw not everyone wants to help the side that is less like us i m referring to people who want to help at all of course you don t see people sending out press releases help bosnian serbs with ethnic cleansing the muslim presence in the balkans should be eliminated now well except for some serbs but i admit that the desire of serbs in america to help the serbian side probably is because those are people more like them on the first day after christmas my truelove served to me leftover turkey on the second day after christmas my truelove served to me turkey casserole that she made from leftover turkey days deleted flaming turkey wings pizza hut commercial and m tlu a gic bait ken arromdee arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu
talk.politics.mideast	re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes in article apr kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes esin terzioglu your ignorance is obvious from your posting esin terzioglu cyprus was an independent country with turkish greek inhabitants not a greek island like your ignorant posting claims esin terzioglu the name should be cyprus in english esin terzioglu next time read and learn before you post aside from spelling why is that you turks do not want to admit your past mistakes you know turkish invasion of cyprus was a mistake and too bad that u n did not do anything about it you may ask mistake yes i would say why is that the greeks did not invade cyprus the greeks did try to invade cyprus just before the turkish intervention they failed just for your info esin
talk.politics.mideast	seventh century a d armenian math problems from quantum magazine march april pages the problem book of anania of shirak on the ancient peak of ararat the centuries have come like seconds and passed on avetik issahakian by yuri danilov some years ago journalists interviewing celebrities liked to ask them what books would you take with you if you were to go off on a space flight and though the number of books allowed on the trip varied from to depending on the type of spacecraft and the generosity of the interviewer and celebrities are people of the most varied tastes ages and professions not one of them dared to say that he or she would want to take with them at least one book of arithmetic problems some of these people certainly excluded this kind of literature because they were trained in the humanities and had nothing but scorn for numbers though secretly afraid of them others steered clear of such puzzle books because they were masters of incomparably more difficult branches of modern mathematics and didn t mind saying for all the world to hear that they didn t know how to solve mere arithmetic problems professional mathematicians were no exception here s what the russian mathematician alexander khinchin a specialist in statistics wrote about arithmetic i willingly confess that any time a fifth grader asked me to help solve an arithmetic problem it was a hard work for me and sometimes i failed completely of course like most of my friends i could easily solve the problem by the natural algebraic route constructing equations or sets of equations but we were supposed to avoid using algebraic analysis at all costs by the way it s a fact that is well known and oft repeated that as a rule neither high school graduates nor students at teaching colleges nor teachers beginning their careers nor i must add scientific researchers can solve arithmetic problems it seems the only people in the world who are able to solve them are fifth grade teachers now i m not insisting that a book of arithmetic problems be included in the bookbag of anyone flying into space but a sense of justice induces me to recommend one particular problem book one that will satisfy the most fastidious taste and supply food for thought sufficient not only for a relatively short flight to the moon but for a extended space voyage say to venus and back one for the road they both took out the books they brought for the road kingsley glanced at the royal astronomer s book and saw a bright cover with a group of cutthroats shooting at each other with revolvers god knows what this kind of stuff leads to thought kingsley the royal astronomer looked at kingsley s book and saw the history of herodotus good lord next he ll be reading thucydides thought the royal astronomer fred hoyle the black cloud the book i m talking about isn t very big but its problems constitute elegant miniatures from seventh century armenia naive and wise at the same time rich in striking detail and the bright coloration of the period these problems are reminiscent of the reliefs on the famous monument of armenian architecture the church on the island of akhtamar in lake van in what is now turkey they are as inseparable from the image of armenia as the elegant letters of the armenian alphabet invented by mesrop mashtots or the songs of komitas or the paintings of saryan an edition of these incredibly beautiful problems has long been a bibliographic rarity it was published under the title problems and solutions of vardapet anania of shirak armenian mathematician of the seventh century translated and published by i a orbeli petrograd the abundance of close observations and wide ranging information about the way of life and customs of that remote epoch when anania of shirak lived and worked have actually rendered a disservice to his problem book for many years the book was known only to researchers in the humanities specialists in armenian history who jealously guarded their treasure and wouldn t let just anyone see it even now after research by k p patkanov the learned monk father kaloust j i orbeli a abramyan v k chaloyan and others has brought the works of anania of shirak to light in scholarly circles the general reader remains ignorant of the very existence of this remarkable problem book vardapet anania of shirak once fell in love with the art of calculation i thought that no philosophical notion can be constructed without number considering it the mother of all wisdom anania of shirak among ancient armenian thinkers vardapet anania of shirak stands out because of the breadth of his interests and the unique mathematical orientation of his work some of his works have been preserved in addition to the problems and solutions the following tracts have found a special place in the estimation of scholars on weights and measures cosmography and calendrical theory and armenian geography of the seventh century a d the authorship of the last work was long attributed to another outstanding thinker of ancient armenia movses of khoren in his autobiography anania of shirak has this to say about himself i anania of shirak having studied all the science of our armenian land and having learned the holy scripture intimately in the expression of the psalmist every day i illuminated the eyes of my mind feeling myself lacking in the art of calculation i came to the conclusion that it is fruitless to study philosophy the mother of all sciences without number i could find in armenia neither a man versed in philosophy nor books that explained the sciences i therefore went to greece and met in theodosiople a man named iliazar who was well versed in ecclesiastical works he told me that in forth armenia there lived a famous mathematician christosatur i went this person and spent six months with him but soon i noticed that christosatur was a master not of all science but only of certain fragmentary facts i then went to constantinople where i met acquaintances who told me why did you go so far when much closer to us in trebizon on the coast of pontus lives the byzantine vardapet tyukhik he is full of wisdom is known to kings and knows armenian literature i asked them how they knew this they answered we saw ourselves that many people traveled long distances to become pupils of so learned a man indeed the archdeacon of the patriarchate of constantinople philagrus traveled with us bringing many young persons to become pupils of tyukhik when i heard this i expressed my gratitude to god who had quenched the thirst of his slave i went to tyukhik at the monastery of st eugene and explained why i had come he received me graciously and said i praise our lord that he sent you to learn and to transplant science in the domain of st gregory i am glad that all your country will learn from me i myself lived in armenia for many years as a youth ignorance reigned there vardapet tyukhik loved me as a son and shared all his thoughts with me the lord bestowed upon me his blessing i completely assimilated the science of number and with such success that my fellow students at the king s court began to envy me i spent eight years with tyukhik and studied many books that had not been translated into our language for the vardapet had an innumerable collection of books secret and explicit ecclesiastical and pagan books on art history and medicine books of chronologies why enumerate them by title in a word there is no book that tyukhik did not have and he had such a gift from the holy spirit for translating that when he sat down to translate something from the greek into armenian he did not struggle as other translators did and the translation read as if the work were written in that language originally tyukhik told me how he had achieved such vast erudition and how he had learned the armenian language when i was young he said i lived in trebizon at the court of the military chief ioannus patricus and for a long time up to the accession of mauritius to the throne i served as a military man in armenia and learned your language and literature during one attack by persian troops on the greeks i was wounded and escaped to antioch i lost all my possessions praying to the lord to heal my wounds i made a promise if you prolong my life i shall dedicate it not to accumulating perishable treasures but to collecting treasures of knowledge and the lord heard my prayers after i recovered i went to jerusalem and from there to alexandria and rome upon returning to constantinople i met a famous philosopher from athens and studied with him for many years after that i returned to my homeland and began to teach and instruct my people after some years that philosopher died not finding a replacement for him the king and his courtiers sent for tyukhik and invited him to assume the teacher s position tyukhik citing the promise he made to god not to move far from the city turned down the offer but because of his wide leaning people came streaming from all countries to study with him and i the most insignificant of all armenians having learned from him this powerful science desired by kings brought it to our country supported by no one obligated only to my own industry god s help and the prayers of the blessed educator and no one thanked me for my efforts problems and solutions a half and one sixth and one nine ninth of all the books were printed on verge one fifth and one two hundred eighty fifth on rag paper one forty fifth and one eight hundred fifty fifth on vellum and forty five inscribed copies on dutch paper and so find how many copies were printed in all imitation of anania of shirak a latin proverb says habent sua fata libelli books have their own fate the fate of problems and solutions by anania of shirak is quite amazing the manuscripts of anania s book were preserved only because according to armenian historians in ancient and medieval armenia manuscripts were guarded from invaders like weapons and cherished like one s own children biding their time the manuscripts lay in the matenadaran a renowned depository of ancient manuscripts now the mesrop mashtots institute of ancient manuscripts and its hour finally arrived in the learned monk father kaloust used two manuscripts to publish the problem book supplementing it with an introduction and commentary in the book was translated into russian edited annotated and typeset by iosef orbeli a prominent scholar and later a member of the academy of sciences of the ussr in the translator s words the problems of anania are amusing full of life and simple orbeli goes on to say the subjects of the problems are generally taken from everyday life the scene is predominantly his homeland shirak and the surrounding countryside and the dramatis personae if they are named are the local princes the kamsarakans including nersekh who was a contemporary of anania like other ancient authors anania of shirak used only aliquots that is fractions with a numerator of when it is necessary to write fractions with numerators other than one has to represent it as a sum of aliquots see the epigraph above like any true work of art the problems of anania suffer terribly in the retelling you have to read the originals albeit in translation in their full glory so let s open anania s problem book a gift from across the ages problems and relate to the armenian uprising against the persians in a d problem my father told me the following story during the famous wars between the armenians and the persians prince zaurak kamsarakan performed extraordinary heroic deeds three times in a single month he attacked the persian troops the first time he struck down half of the persian army the second time pursuing the persians he slaughtered one fourth of the soldiers the third time he destroyed one eleventh of the persian army the persians who were still alive numbering two hundred eighty fled to nakhichevan and so from this remainder find how many persian soldiers there were before the massacre problem during the famous armenian uprising against the persians when zaurak kamsarakan killed suren one of the armenian azats sent an envoy to the persian king to report the baleful news the envoy covered fifty miles in a day fifteen days later when he learned of this zaurak kamsarakan sent riders in pursuit to bring the envoy back the riders covered eighty miles in a day and so find how many days it took them to catch the envoy problem mentions vessels made of varying amounts of metal in the russian translation they are all called dishes but in the original armenian according to orbeli s note the dishes in the first and second instances are called mesur and in the third instance scutel scutel is a common armenian word but mesur had not been encountered in armenian literature before anania s problems and solutions problem there was a tray in my house i melted it down and made other vessels from the metal from one third i made a mesur from one fourth another mesur from one fifth two goblets from one sixth two scutels and from two hundred ten drams i made a bowl and now find the weight of the tray several of the problems reflect the richness of the caucasian fauna in anania s time for instance problem problem once i was in marmet the capital of the kamsarakans strolling along the bank of the river akhuryan i saw a school of fish and ordered that a net be cast we caught a half and a quarter of the school and all the fishes that slipped out of the net ended up in a creel when i looked in the creel i found forty five fishes and now find how many fishes here were in all the temptation is great to present all problems but i ll restrain myself and offer you just one more problem provides some interesting information about the wild animals that inhabited armenia at one time but now extinct for so long that there is no mention of them even in zoological reference books the wild donkey according to the generally accepted view never roamed the armenian lands yet anania of shirak offers evidence to the contrary problem the hunting preserve of nersekh kamsarakan ter of shirak and asharunik was at the base of the mountain called artin one night great herds of wild donkey entered the preserve the hunters could not cope with the donkeys and running to the village of talin told nersekh about them when he arrived with his brothers and azats and entered the preserve they began killing the wild beasts half of the animals were caught in traps one fourth were killed by arrows the young which constituted one twelfth of all the animals were caught alive and three hundred sixty wild donkeys were killed by spears and so find how many beasts there were at the start of this massacre set in type by me iosef orbeli his biography could not be squeezed into the framework of a bibliography k uzbashyan academician iosef abgarovich orbeli anyone who is lucky enough to hold a copy n of the small printing n is the solution to the epigraph in the previous section of the russian translation of anania of shirak s problems and solutions a thin book with yellowed pages has probably noticed the variety of the fonts the elegance of the borders and the high quality of the design printing and binding such great attention to detail is characteristic of works that fulfill a requirement for a degree in bookmaking and this problem book was indeed a kind of diploma attesting to the professional maturity of the man who created it an advertisement at the end of the book reads this book was typeset in december at the printing offices of the russian academy of sciences by me iosef orbeli the text was also proofread laid out and decorated with borders by me various circumstances prevented me from carrying this project to the end the final pages of the book were typeset by m strolman typesetting was neither the first nor the only profession of the renowned orientalist iosef orbeli who later became the director of the hermitage museum in leningrad he was also a cabinetmaker and a locksmith orbeli had already become acquainted with the famous academic printing house typis academiae founded in and known all over the scientific world for its rich collection of fonts and its virtuoso typesetters in preparing to publish the corpus of ancient inscriptions preserved on the walls of armenian churches orbeli found it necessary to create a new font that would preserve the unique signs and ligatures this complicated work was done by m g strolman unfortunately the entire set of letters was destroyed during the blockade of leningrad in world war ii when orbeli came to the printing offices of the academy of sciences times were hard the only way to publish the newly translated problems of anania was for orbeli to learn typesetting he had always been attracted to the printer s craft in orbeli became the director of printing at the academy of sciences even after he retired he remained a tireless champion of russian academic typography back to earth this book by definition does not exhaust all the most important works in this domain the editor hopes that those who are guilty of this incompleteness will read these lines and stung by shame will work up if not a collection like this at least a monograph v bonch bruyevich introduction to the russian translation of solid body symmetry by r knox and a gold let s imagine a time when space flight is an everyday thing and high schoolers will spend their breaks as astronauts in training in the perelman crater on the far side of the moon maybe one of the space travelers will take this very copy of quantum and another looking over her shoulder will read this article and say to himself this anania from shirak seems like a pretty interesting guy when i get home i ll try to find his problems good luck my young friend anania is sure to entertain you perhaps by then there will be more than n copies of his timeless problems and solutions and we can hope they will be as lovingly printed as the masterpieces created by iosef orbeli vardapet or vartabed means teacher or learned man in armenian the armenian language suffers in english from a dual transliteration scheme thus mesrop is often rendered as mesrob komitas as gomidas and so on fourth armenia was one of fifteen provinces into which according to armenian geography in the seventh century a d so called great armenia was divided pontus or pontus euxinus was an old name for the black sea azats were members one of several strata of freemen in ancient armenia ter was the title of the heads of sovereign royal families in ancient armenia david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
talk.politics.mideast	re to be exact million readers enlightened by serdar argic andrew varvel writes serdar argic a k a serdar argic the merciful and compassionate writes serdar argic s bountiful divine all knowing and footnoted wisdom is regrettably omitted for this solemn tribute where can i join the serdar argic fan club do i get a t shirt the friendly neighborhood alien life just hasn t been the same since david koresh died ah c mon give the guy three days and see what comes up leo disclaimer it wasn t me honest email it was him he made me do it c l gannon newcastle ac uk
talk.politics.mideast	re conventional proposales israel palestinians the latest israeli proposal first proposed in february of contains the following assumptions concerning the nature of any interim status refering to the wb and gaza the palestinians implemented by negotiations it states that israel will remain the existing source of authority until final status is agreed upon israel will negiotiate the delegation of power to the organs of the interim self government arrangements isga the isga will apply to the palestinian inhabitants of the territories under israeli military administration the arrangements will not have a territorial application nor will they apply to the israeli population of the territories or to the palestinian inhabitants of jerusalem residual powers not delegated under the isga will be reserved by israel israelis will continue to live and settle in the territoriesd israel alone will have responsibility for security in all its aspects external internal and for the maintenance of public order the organs of the isga will be of an administrative functional nature the exercise of powers under the isga will be subject to cooperation and coordination with israel israel will negotiate delegation of powers and responsibilities in the areas of administration justice personnel agriculture education business tourism labor and social welfare local police local transportation and communications municipal affairs and religious affairs several question do come to mind concerning the success we all hope for in the ongoing negotiation process these arrangements certainly seem to be essentially a rejection of any palestinian interim self control without exposing itself to unwarranted risks and creating irresversible vulnerability can israel reasonably put forward at later points in the negotiating process more relaxed proposals for this interim period how should proposals from either side be altered to temper their maximalist approaches as stated above how can israeli worries and desire for some interim control be addressed while providing for a very real interim palestinian self governing entity tim later comment there seem to be two perceptions that have to be addressed the first is that of israel where there is little trust for arab groups so there is little support for israel giving up tangible assets in exchange for pieces of paper expectations hopes etc the second is that of the arab world palestinians where there is the demand that these tangible concessions be made by israel without it receiving anything tangible back given this the gap between the two stances seems to be the need by israel of receiving some tangible returns for its expected concessions by tangible is meant something that provides israel with comparable protection from the land it is to give up in some way ensures that the arab states and palestine will be accountable and held actively not just diplomatically responsible for the upholding of all actions on its territory by citizens or visitors israel is hanging on largely because it is scared stiff that the minute it lets go gives lands back to arab states no more buffer zone gives full autonomy to palestinians any and or all of the arab parties could and would if not controlled somehow easily return to the traditional anti israel position the question then is how to really ensure that that will not happen tim clock ph d graduate student uci tel department of politics and society fax university of california irvine
talk.politics.mideast	re israel s expansion ii in article pp a auvm american edu paul h pimentel pp a auvm american edu writes what gives isreal the right to keep jeruseleum it is the home of the muslim a s well as jewish religion among others what gives the us the right to keep new york it is the home of the united nations as well as being home to a myriad of ethnic groups actually nyc is more comparable to the gaza strip the controlling authority would probably be pleased as punch to unload it on someone else but no one seems to want it heck nobody ever mentions what yitzak shamir did forty or fifty years ago which is terrorize westerners much in the way abdul nidal does today seems isrealis are nowhere above arabs so therefore they have a right to jerusaleum as much as isreal does a historical bullshit shamir fought the british who incidentally shipped whole shiploads of jews back to the nazis for extermination and hung those jewish fighters that they captured and didn t want to deal with anymore shamir did not attack civilians on airliners cruise ships in airports sports events movie theaters markets on buses and children in schoolyards your comparison to a master murderer like abu nidal is blind jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	re the u s holocaust memorial museum a costly and dangerous mistake it s all my fault i am in violation of one of my own rules avoid followingup to a barf posting in article r pb nkk genesis mcs com arf genesis mcs com jack schmidling writes in article c ut s xa bony bony com jake bony bony com jake livni writes through private contributions on federal land your hate mongering article is devoid of current and historical fact intellectual content and social value down the toilet it goes and we all know what an unbiased source the nyt is when it comes to things concerning israel those damned spiking israelists right barfling neither the times nor the trained seals who have responded thus far seem to trained seals you mean the ones that flap their flippers making arf arf arf arf sounds recognize the statement that these private funds were all tax exmpt in otherwords american taxpayers put up at least of the money and finalyy how does federal land mitigate the offensiveness of this alien monument dedicated to perpetuating pitty and the continual flow of tax money to a foreign entity in your own diseased mind you now seem to believe that tax exemption is equivalent to government funding holy shit batman the us government is now one of the major supporters of the catholic church in violation of the rules of separation of church and state that federal land and tax money could have been used to commerate americans or better yet to house homeless americans quick bill commandeer all the churches and give them to the people or does your anti logic only apply to the mosques belonging to what you have described as ragheads or perhaps the synagogues of those you have characterized as hymies jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	israeli media was re israeli terrorism in article bd c d news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes in article apr virginia edu ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes i think the israeli press might be a tad bit biased in reporting the events i doubt the propaganda machine of goering reported accurately on what was happening in germany it is interesting that you are basing the truth on israeli propaganda since one is also unlikely to get the truth from either arab or palestinian news outlets where do we go to understand to learn is one form of propoganda more reliable than another the only way to determine that is to try and get beyond the writer s political agenda whether it is on or against our side tim to andi i have to disagree with you about the value of israeli news sources if you want to know about events in palestine it makes more sense to get the news directly from the source every news source is inherently biased to some extent and for various reasons both intentional and otherwise however the more sources relied upon the easier it is to see the truth and to discern the bias go read or listen to some israeli media you will learn more news and more opinion about israel and palestine by doing so then you can form your own opinions and hopefully they will be more informed even if your views don t change brad hernlem hernlem chess ncsu edu jake can call me doctor mohandes brad ali hernlem as of last wednesday
talk.politics.mideast	re lezgians astir in azerbaijan and daghestan in article hydra gatech edu gt a prism gatech edu gt a gt a kaan timucin wrote kt hello shit face david i see that you are still around i dont want to kt see your shitty writings posted here man i told you so close your eyes and walk away kt you are getting itchy as your fucking country i have been defending the history of the armenians on this network for over six years i have seen the likes of you enter his forum make fools of themselves and simply vanish as did the armenians in kt hey and dont give me that freedom of speach bullshit once more realize sir you are not in turkey in the usa freedom of speech is not considered bullshit it is because of such freedoms that turks like yourself are allowed to attend georgia tech kt because your freedom has ended when you started writing things about my kt people and try to translate this ebenin donu butti kafa david what s the problem if you can t stand the heat leave your government murdered million armenians and you would have me stay quiet to suit your personal fancy or some fascist fetish regarding the greatness of turkey well that is simply too bad kt bye anacim hade kt timucin pis bogaz david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org armenia has not learned a lesson in s d p a center for regional studies anatolia and has forgotten the p o box punishment inflicted on it cambridge ma late turkish president turgut ozal
talk.politics.mideast	re seventh century a d armenian math problems problem my father told me the following story during the famous wars between the armenians and the persians prince zaurak kamsarakan performed extraordinary heroic deeds three times in a single month he attacked the persian troops the first time he struck down half of the persian army the second time pursuing the persians he slaughtered one fourth of the soldiers the third time he destroyed one eleventh of the persian army the persians who were still alive numbering two hundred eighty fled to nakhichevan and so from this remainder find how many persian soldiers there were before the massacre answer a a corollary armenians strike slaughter destroy and massacre after all they are not as innocent as the asala network claims
talk.politics.mideast	accounts of anti armenian human right violations in azerbaijan accounts of anti armenian human right violations in azerbaijan prelude to current events in nagorno karabakh i asked what s going on he says what s the matter can t you see they ve overturned a car and they re killing armenians deposition of zaven armenakovich badasian born employed sumgait bulk yarn plant resident at building apartment microdistrict no sumgait azerbaijan on february my wife and i went to baku to go shopping and returned to sumgait at around five in the evening we ran into one of my relatives at the bus station and got to talking a lot of people had gathered not far away near the store well at first we didn t know what was happening and then a fellow i know comes up to me an azerbaijani guy and says what are you standing here for go home immediately i asked what s going on he says what s the matter can t you see they ve overturned a car and they re killing armenians he helped me catch a cab and we got home safely we sat at home for two days during that time a gang of bandits came into our courtyard but the neighbors wouldn t let them in the building there were about of them they had sticks and pieces of armatures in their hands they were shouting something but you couldn t understand it it wasn t one voice or two all of them were shouting in a chorus they turned toward building they went up to the third floor and we see that they re breaking glass and throwing things out the window after a while they come out the entryway one has a pair of jeans in his hands another has a tape recorder and a third a guitar they went on toward the auto parts store we had to save ourselves after midnight on march we went to hide at school no which is in microdistrict there were two other armenian families there with us there were of us altogether out of all of them i had only known ernest before he had moved to sumgait from kirovabad the azerbaijani guard at the school let us in at first he didn t want to but there was nowhere else for us to go we had to plead with him and talk him into it we were told that on that day the st there would be an attack on our microdistrict we went upstairs to a classroom on the second floor on the city radio station they announced three telephone numbers that could be used to summon assistance or communicate anything important i called one of them and the first secretary of the sumgait city party committee answered i asked him for assistance i say we re in school no we need to be evacuated well he says got it wait there i m sending out help now i know his voice the first secretary had been to our plant i had spoken with him personally when i called he said muslimzade here about two hours after the call we heard shouts near the school we looked out the window and about to people were outside saying armenians come out we re here to get you they have clubs axes and armature shafts in their hands the guard sat there with us and asked where should i go i say if your life is of any value to you you ll go down there and say that the armenians were here and that they left that s what he did he went down there and said the armenians were here he said i let them out the back door they went that way and pointed with his hand and with shouts and noise the mob set off in the direction he had pointed so the assistance we had been promised did come they sent us help all right instead of sending real soldiers he had sent his own i am positive that muslimzade did that no one had seen us entering the school no one knew that we were there in any case we stayed at the school until seven in the morning and no soldiers of any sort came to our aid in the morning we went to my relative s in microdistrict and the soldiers took us to the sk club from there the club was jammed with people and there were lots of people ahead of us there was no space available one small boy about three months old died right in my arms there wasn t a single doctor nothing the boy was uninjured there were no wounds or bruises on him he was just very ill they gave him mouth to mouth resuscitation they did everything they could under the circumstances but were unable to save him and his mother and father a young armenian couple were right there on the floor i searched for a spot for us in the sk we have a small child of our own i wanted to find a room or something to put my family in i went up to the third floor there were a lot of soldiers up there bandaged with canes limping with their heads broken open they were a terrible sight young guys all of them there were a lot of bandaged armenians too everyone had been beaten everyone was crying wailing and calling for help i think that the city party committee ignored us completely true there was a snack bar a sausage was kopeks or kopeks a package of cookies that cost kopeks was being sold for a bottled soft drink cost a ruble but there was no way to get the things any cheaper i met my old uncle aram mikhailovich there he saw me and tears welled up in his eyes my whole life he had told me that we were friendly peoples that we worked together he always had azerbaijanis over at his house and now he saw me and there was nothing he could say he just cried you can understand his feelings of course april yerevan reference the sumgait tragedy pogroms against armenians in soviet azerbaijan volume i eyewitness accounts edited by samuel shahmuradian forward by yelena bonner published by aristide d caratzas ny pages david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org armenia has not learned a lesson in s d p a center for regional studies anatolia and has forgotten the p o box punishment inflicted on it cambridge ma late turkish president turgut ozal
talk.politics.mideast	re turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece armenia azeris in article finaid auvm american edu finaid auvm american edu writes look mr atakan i have repeated it in the past and i shall repeat it once more that when it comes to how greeks are treating the turks in greece you and your copatriots should simply shut up because what you are hearing is simply a form of propaganda from your ethnic fellows who studied at the greek universities without paying any money for tuition food and helth insurance and any high school graduate can put down some simple math and compare the grouth of the turkish community in greece with the destruction of the greek minority in turkey aykut atalay atakan panos tamamidis mr tamamidis before repling your claims i suggest you be kind to individuals who are trying to make some points abouts human rights discriminations and unequal treatment of turkish minority in greece i want the world know how bad you treat these people you will deny anything i say but it does not make any difrence because i will write things that i saw with my eyes you prove yourself prejudice by saying free insurance school etc do you greeks only give these things to turkish minority or everybody has rights to get them your words even discriminate these people you think that you are giving big favor to these people by giving these thing that in reality they get nothing if you do not know unhuman practices that are being conducted by the government of the greece i suggest that you investigate to see the facts then we can discuss about the most basic human rights like fredom of religion if you did not see with your eyes freedom of religion you must ne at least blind fredom of press of turkish weeks ago i read the interview of a turkish journalist in a greek magazine he said nothing about being forbiden to have turkish press in greece minority ethnic cleansing of all turks in greece give as a brake you call athnic cleansing of apopulation when it doubles freedom of right to have property without government intervention what do you mean by that anyway in greece as in every country if you want some property you inform the goverment fredom of right to vote to choose your community leaders well well well when turkish in area of komotini elect out of represenatives of this area to greek parliament if not freedom what is it out of maybe there are only turks living there how greek government encourages people to destroy religious places houses farms schools for turkish minority then forcing them to go to turkey without anything with them i cannot deny that actions of fanatics from both sides were reported a minority of greek idiots indeed attack religious places which were protected by the greek police photographs of greek policemen preventing turks from this non brain minority were all over greek press before i conclude my writing let me point out how greeks are treated in turkey we do not consider them greek minority instead we consider a part of our society there is no difference among people in turkey we do not state that greek minority go to turkish universities get free insurance food and health insurance because these are basic human needs and they are a part of turkish community all big businesses belong to greeks in turkey and we are proud to have them unlike the greece which tries to destroy turkish minority we encourage all minorities in turkey to be a part of turkish society oh no please do give as a brake minorities in turkish treated like that your own countrymen die in the prisons every day bacause of their political beliefs an this is reported by turks and you want us to believe tha turkey is the paradise of human rights business of greeks i turkey yes years ago you seem to be intelligent so before presenting turkey as the paradise of human rights just invastigate this matter a bit more aykut atalay atakan
talk.politics.mideast	the israeli press andy beyer has claimed that the israeli press is a bit biased but the fact is that there are events shaping the politics of the mideast that people who do not read the israeli press simply know nothing about many of these events are not even mentioned here i read the israeli press to learn of important events about which you know nothing because of your total reliance on western media for your information on israel since i read both american media and israeli media i can say with absolute certainty that anybody who reliesx exclusively on the american press for knowledge about israel does not have a true picture of what is going on as to the claim that israeli papers are biased of course they are some may lean to the right or the left just like the media here in america but they still report events about which people here know nothing i choose to form my opinions about israel and the mideast based on more knowledge than does an average american who relies exclusively on an american media which does not report on events in the mideast with any consistency or accuracy
talk.politics.mideast	israel does not kill reporters anas omran has claimed that the israelis used to arrest and sometime to kill some of these neutral reporters the assertion by anas omran is of course a total fabrication if there is an once of truth iin it i m sure anas omran can document such a sad and despicable event otherwise we may assume that it is another piece of anti israel bullshit posted by someone whose family does not know how to teach their children to tell the truth if omran would care to retract this error i would be glad to retract the accusation that he is a liar if he can document such a claim i would again be glad to apologize for calling him a liar failing to do either of these would certainly show what a liar he is
talk.politics.mideast	re rejoinder questions to israelis in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes from center for policy research cpr subject rejoinder questions to israelis dear josh i appreciate the fact that you sought to answer my questions having said that i am not totally happy with your answers you did not fully answer my question whether israeli id cards identify the holders as jews or arabs you imply that u s citizens must identify themselves by race is that true or are just trying to mislead the reader i think he is trying to mislead people in cases where race information is sought it is completely voluntary the census possibly excepted anwar
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli terrorism anas omran writes in his earlier posting a high rank israeli officer was killed during a clash whith a hamas and then his fantasy begins mujahid the terrorist israelis chased and killed a young mujahid using anti tank missiles the terrorist zionists cut the mujahid s body into small pieces to the extend that his body was not recognized at leat ten houses were destroyed by these atni tank missiles anas omran this clearly is a fantastic story anas i am very curious as to who or what your sources are for this grossly exaggerated account if not blatant lie it surprises me that this story has not yet made it to the front pages of the major newspapers which love to make the state of israel look as evil as humanly possible such a story would be eaten up by some of the papers over here so please explain to me why i have never seen nor heard of it before believe me i m not expecting a reply because we both know where the story came from your dreams michael zion magil ibm canada laboratory
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli terrorism in article rd eo a usenet ins cwru edu cy cleveland freenet edu anas omran writes there are many neutral human rights organizations which always report on the situation in the o t but as most people used to see on tv the israelis do not allow them to go deep there in the o t the israelis used to arrest and sometimes to kill some of these neutral reporters so this is another kind of terrorism committed by the jews in palestine they do not allow fair and neutral coverage of the situation in palestine please list the names of some of those neutral reporters that were killed in the o t it is also interesting to note that at the outbreak of the intifada palestinian parties quickly began orchestrating their demonstrations for the benefit of the media having spoken to a danish reporter who covered the initfada i know of at least one case where he found out that a mass demonstration on the outskirts of gaza was setup for himself and his colleagues when i asked whether the footage shot was sent he replied affirmatively after all it did happen when this became the case the idf began closing sensitive trouble spots to reporters anas omran shai guday stealth bombers os software engineer thinking machines corp the winged ninja of the skies cambridge ma
talk.politics.mideast	re seventh century a d armenian math problems in article r qn innd n flop engr orst edu koc rize ece orst edu cetin kaya koc writes problem my father told me the following story during the famous wars between the armenians and the persians prince zaurak kamsarakan performed extraordinary heroic deeds three times in a single month he attacked the persian troops the first time he struck down half of the persian army the second time pursuing the persians he slaughtered one fourth of the soldiers the third time he destroyed one eleventh of the persian army the persians who were still alive numbering two hundred eighty fled to nakhichevan and so from this remainder find how many persian soldiers there were before the massacre answer a a i thought the implication was that the prince destroyed one fourth of the remaining persian troops on the second round and then of those remaining on the third round this would mean answer a a
talk.politics.mideast	re israel does not kill reporters anas omran has claimed that the israelis used to arrest and sometime to kill some of these neutral reporters the assertion by anas omran is of course a total fabrication if there is an once of truth iin it i m sure anas omran can document such a sad and despicable event otherwise we may assume that it is another piece of anti israel bullshit posted by someone whose family does not know how to teach their children to tell the truth if omran would care to retract this error i would be glad to retract the accusation that he is a liar if he can document such a claim i would again be glad to apologize for calling him a liar failing to do either of these would certainly show what a liar he is why retract your accusation that he s a liar if omran retracts his verbal diarrohea doesn t that only prove the liar he really is a retraction would be pointless giving this guy the opportunity to save face after uttering such bullshit would just encourage him to do it again i must say that your style is very impressive mark keep it up mike mi ke mik emik emi k opinions expressed above m i k e m i k e m are my own and not that m i k e mikem i kem i k of big blue m i k e m ike m ike mike
talk.politics.mideast	re unconventional peace proposal in article c un y jn apollo hp com goykhman apollo hp com red herring writes in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes from center for policy research cpr subject unconventional peace proposal a unconventional proposal for peace in the middle east by elias davidsson having stated my assumptions i will now state my proposal a fund should be established which would disburse grants for each child born to a couple where one partner is israeli jew and the other palestinian arab the emergence of a considerable number of mixed marriages in israel palestine all of whom would have relatives on both sides of the divide would make the conflict lose its ethnical and unsoluble core and strengthen the emergence of a truly civil society the existence of a strong mixed stock of people would also help the integration of israeli society into the sounds just like a racial theory that hitler outlined in mein kampf someone else said something similar i will not comment on the value or lack of value of elias s proposal i just want to say that it is very distressing that at least two people here are profoundly ignorant of nazi racial doctrine they were not like elias s idea they were more like the opposite nazis believed in racial purity not racial assimilation an instructive example is the nazi attitude to gypsies according to nazi theoreticians gypsies were an aryan race they were persecuted and in huge numbers murdered because most european gypies were considered not pure gypsies but mongrels formed from the pure gypsy race and other undesirable races this was the key difference between the theoretical approach to jews and gypsies by the way it is also true that towards the end of wwii even the purist gypsies were hunted down as the theory was forgotten brendan email bdm cs anu edu au
talk.politics.mideast	ozal died it was announced on npr am edt that turkish president ozal died of a heart attack in ankara david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
talk.politics.mideast	re the israeli press bc cleveland freenet edu mark ira kaufman writes for your information on israel since i read both american media and israeli media i can say with absolute certainty that anybody who reliesx exclusively on the american press for knowledge about israel does not have a true picture of what is going on of course you never read arab media i read arab israeli jer post and this network is more than enough and western american french and british reports and i can say that if we give israel and arabs on the bias scale of course you can switch the polarities israeli newspapers will get either a or american leading newspapers and tv news range from to yes there are some that are more israelis than israelis the montreal suburban a local free newspaper probably is closer to kahane s views than some israeli right wing newspapers british range from neutral to french that iknow of of course range from afro french magazines to arab official media range from to egyptian to in sa why no because they do not want to overdo it and stir people against israel and therefore against them since they are doing nothing as to the claim that israeli papers are biased of course they are some may lean to the right or the left just like the media here in america but they still report events about which people here know nothing i choose to form my opinions about israel and the mideast based on more knowledge than does an average american who relies exclusively on an american media which does not report on events in the mideast with any consistency or accuracy the average bias of what you read would be probably around while that of the average american would be the same if they do not read or read the new york times and similar news makers and if they read some other relatively less biased newspapers so you are not better off
talk.politics.mideast	re israel s expansion ii ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes waldo cybernet cse fau edu writes ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes first of all i never said the holocaust i said before the holocaust i m not ignorant of the holocaust and know more about nazi germany than most people maybe including you uh oh the first sign of an argument without merit the stating of one s qualifications in an area if you know something about nazi germany show it if you don t shut up simple as that i don t think the suffering of some jews during wwii justifies the crimes commited by the israeli government any attempt to call civil liberterians like myself anti semetic is not appreciated all jews suffered during wwii not just our beloved who perished or were tortured we all suffered second the name calling was directed against you not civil libertarians in general your name dropping of a fancy sounding political term is yet another attempt to cite qualifications in order to obfuscate your glaring unpreparedness for this argument go back to the minors junior all humans suffered emotionally some jews and many others suffered physically it is sad that people like you are so blinded by emotions that they can t see the facts thanks for calling me names it only assures me of what kind of ignorant people i am dealing with i included your letter since i thought it demonstrated my point more than anything i could write when you re willing to actually support something you say with fact or argument rather than covering up your own inadequacies with feigned offense let me know otherwise back to your own league son
talk.politics.mideast	re clinton s views on jerusalem in article apr porthos cc bellcore com bf pyuxe cc bellcore com feigenbaum benjamin writes i recently read that during bill clinton s campaign he stated that if elected he would immediately recognize jerusalem as israel s capital according to the article mr clinton reaffirmed this after winning the presidency however during recent talks with president mubarak secretary of state christopher stated that the status of jerusalem will be a final matter of discussion between the parties now i don t want to start a big discussion over the status of jerusalem all i want to know is if anyone can authenticate mr clinton s statements with dates places etc this would be one of the results of u s backed peace process hamid thank you ben
talk.politics.mideast	re the hamas way of death nstramer supergas dazixco ingr com naftaly stramer writes the hamas way of death following is a transcript of a recruitment and training videotape made last summer by the qassam battalions the military as opposed to israel s many ways of death using bombers and artillery against lebanese towns and villages using fire arms and lethal variants of tear gas and rubber coated bullets against stone throwers using tanks and anti tank missiles against homes after a minute evacuation warning using shin bit s reasonable physical pressure in interrogation and more not counting of course past practices such as the bombardment of beirut in the bombing of the egyptian school of bahr el bakar and the abu za bal factory in the downing of the libyan airliner full of egyptian passengers near the same time overseeing the maronite massacre in sabra and shatilla that is of course besides numerous massacres by irgun and other gangs during the british mandate period ironically the same op ed page in the nyt times from which the naftaly copied this article was running another article next to it by a m rosenthall blaming bosnian muslims for their own genocide by effectively saying that it is stupid to seek independence if independence will bring your people slaughter but what else would one expect from mr rosenthall who never wasted a chance to bash arabs or muslims alaa zeineldine
talk.politics.mideast	re was go hezbollah in article bcf a news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes in article apr ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu brad hernlem writes in article bce news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes are you suggesting that when guerillas use the population for cover israel should totally back down so the easiest way to get away with attacking another is to use an innocent as a shield and hope that the other respects innocent lives tell me tim what are these guerillas doing wrong assuming that they are using civilians for cover assuming also come on brad if we are going to get anywhere in this or any discussion it doesn t help to bring up elements i never addressed nor commented on in any way i made no comment on who is right or who is wrong only that civilians are being used as cover and that having been placed in between the israelis and the guerillas they will be injured as both parties continue their fight pardon me tim but i do not see how it can be possible for the idf to fail to detect the presence of those responsible for planting the bomb which killed the three idf troops and then later know the exact number and whereabouts of all of them several villages were shelled how could the idf possibly have known that there were guerrillas in each of the targetted villages you see it was an arbitrary act of retaliation if the buffer zone is to prevent attacks on israel is it not working why is it further neccessary for israeli guns to pound lebanese villages why not just kill those who try to infiltrate the buffer zone you see there is more to the shelling of the villages it is called retaliation getting back getting even it doesn t make sense to shell the villages the least it shows is a reckless disregard by the israeli government for the lives of civilians i agree with you here i have always thought that israel s bombing sortees and bombing policy is stupid thoughtless inhumane and ineffective but there is no reason that israel should passive wait until attackers chose to act there is every reason to believe that taking the fight to the enemy will do more to stop attacks as i said previously israel spent several decades sitting passively on its side of a border and only acting to stop these attacks after the attackers had entered israeli territory it didn t work very well the host arab state did little nothing to try and stop these attacks from its side of the border with israel so the number of attacks were considerably higher as was their physical and psychological impact on the civilians caught in their path the problem tim is that the original reason for the invasion was palestinian attacks on israel not lebanese attacks what so the whole bit about attacks on israel from neighboring arab states can start all over again while i also hope for this to happen it will only occur when arab states show that they are prepared to take on the responsibility and the duty to stop guerilla attacks on israel from their soil they have to prove it or provide some guaratees there is no way israel is going to accept their word not with their past attitude of tolerance towards anti israel guerillas in residence if israel is not willing to accept the word of others then imho it has no business wasting others time coming to the peace talks this is just another selectively applied statement the reason for this drawn out impasse between ababs palestinians and israelis is that neither side is willing to accept the word of the other by your criteria everyone should stay away from the negotiations that is precisely why the palestinians in their recent pisga proposal for the interim period after negotiations and leading up to full autonomy are demanding conditions that essentially define autonomy already they do not trust that israel will follow through the entire process and allow palestinians to reach full autonomy do you understand and accept this viewpoint by the palestinians if you do then why should israel s view of arabs palestinians be any different why should they trust the arab palestinians words since they don t they are very reluctant to give up tangible assets land control of areas in exchange for words for this reason they are also concerned about the sorts of guarantees they will have that the arabs will follow through on their part of any agreement reached first i believe that my statement applies to both sides having said that i think it is neccessary to separate what is legitimately negotiable and what is not for example no country has the right to abuse one s human rights deciding whether there will be one or two states in palestine is a legitimate question while de facto one state exists israel must treat all within its domain equitably tim you are ignoring the fact that the palestinians in lebanon have been disarmed hezbollah remains the only independent militia hezbollah does not attack israel except at a few times such as when the idf burned up sheikh mosavi his wife and young son while the major armaments those allowing people to wage civil wars have been removed the weapons needed to cross border attacks still remain to some extent rocket attacks still continue and commando raids only require a few easily concealed weapons and a refined disregard for human life yours of that of others such attacks also continue yes i am afraid that what you say is true but that still does not justify occupying your neighbor s land israel must resolve its disputes with the native palestinians if it wants peace from such attacks of course if israel would withdraw from lebanon and stop assassinating people and shelling villages they wouldn t make the lebanese so mad as to do that bat guano the situation you call for existed in the s and attacks were commonplace not true lebanese were not attacking israel in the s with a strong lebanese government free from syrian and israeli interference i believe that the border could be adequately patrolled the palestinian heavy weapons have been siezed in past years and i do not see as significant a threat as once existed please tim don t fall into the trap of treating lebanese and palestinians as all part of the same group there are too many who think all arabs or all muslims are the same too many times i have seen people support the bombing of palestinian camps in retaliation for an idf death at the hands of the lebanese resistance or the shelling of lebanese villages in retaliation for a palestinian attack tim
talk.politics.mideast	re the hamas way of death in article apr nntpd lkg dec com alaa peewee unx dec com alaa zeineldine writes nstramer supergas dazixco ingr com naftaly stramer writes the hamas way of death following is a transcript of a recruitment and training videotape made last summer by the qassam battalions the military alaa zeineldine while you brought up the separate question of israel s unjustified policies and practices i am still unclear about your reaction to the practices and polocies reflected in the article above tim
talk.politics.mideast	re the u s holocaust memorial museum a costly and dangerous mistake arf genesis mcs com jack schmidling writes in article c ut s xa bony bony com jake bony bony com jake livni writes through private contributions on federal land your hate mongering article is devoid of current and historical fact intellectual content and social value down the toilet it goes and we all know what an unbiased source the nyt is when it comes to things concerning israel neither the times nor the trained seals who have responded thus far seem to recognize the statement that these private funds were all tax exmpt in otherwords american taxpayers put up at least of the money and finalyy how does federal land mitigate the offensiveness of this alien monument dedicated to perpetuating pitty and the continual flow of tax money to a foreign entity that federal land and tax money could have been used to commerate americans or better yet to house homeless americans the donations are tax deductible like any donations to a non profit organization i ve donated money to a group restoring streetcars and it was tax deductible why don t you contribute to a group helping the homeless if you so concerned
talk.politics.mideast	re final solution in palestine o k its my turn driving the jews into the sea i am sick and tired of this driving the jews into the sea sentance attributed to islamic movements and the plo it simply can t be proven as part of their plan may i suggest you chech out the palestinian national covenant it may not use the exact words as quoted above but i m sure many will agree that the same message is being issued later on when i get back home i will try to find the precise section s but you can do the research for now i hope i also realize that yasser arafat renounced the covenant to the western media only but he has yet to inform the pnc officially and enequivocally of his exact intentions on this issue therefore as far as we are concerned the covenant still stands as the bible so to speak of the mainstream palestinian national movement pro israeli activists repeat it like parrots without checking its authenticity since it was coined by bnai brith as a staunch pro israel activist i can confidently say that bnai brith has not influenced my opinions on the arab israeli conflict as i mentioned above just a little research on the subject will lead anyone to reach a similar conclusion on the palestinian national movement the plo in most cases bb does not properly speak for me nor many of the people around me who share my views what hamas and islamic jihad believe in as far as i can get from the arab media is an islamic state that protects the rights of all its inhabitants under koranic law this would be a reversal of the situation in which the jews in palestine took control of the land and its mostly muslim inhabitants what situation a negative situation i presume is this the same situation when the jordanian occupiers of east jerusalem would not allow the jews to go worship at the holiest site in judiasm was this an example of qu ranic law being exercised if not i have another suggested reading for you get into the soc culture arabic newsgroup where the posters have been debating the topic jews in the qu ran and may i remind you the people doing the debating appear to be devout muslims with some knowledge of the qu ran you will find that jews aren t really viewed positively by the qu ran to put it lightly so how do you think jews or any other non islamic religion will be treated by an islamic state governed by the words of the qu ran i think the situation in jerusalem will return at best what do you think however whoever committed crimes against humanity torture blowing up their homes murders must be treated and tried as a war criminal the political thought of these movements shows that a freedom of choice will be given to the jews in living under the new law or leaving to the destintion of their choice all i have to say to that is once again see s c a jews in the qu ran and think again freedom of choice is definitely not an option in qu ranic law especially for non muslims and all women remember the gulf war i m sure you saw the reports about how women had few rights in saudi arabia an islamic state as for the plo i am at a loss to explain what is going inside arafat s mind probably nothing aside from how to break the news to his palestinian brethren that the covenant is null and void without getting assassinated himself although their political thinking seems far fetched with israel acting as a true super power in the region the islamic movements are using the same weapon the jews used to establish their state religion in conclusion ahmed you should go to the library and find the palestinian national covenant and read it very carefully by the way redpath library does have it in stock because that is exactly where i found it when i was doing my research so enjoy the reading and i hope we will be hearing back from you soon mike mi ke mik emik emi k opinions expressed above m i k e m i k e m are my own and not that m i k e mikem i kem i k of big blue m i k e m ike m ike mike ibm corp toronto canada
talk.politics.mideast	re desertification of the negev in article apr cs brown edu dzk cs brown edu danny keren writes this is nonsense i lived in the negev for many years and i can say for sure that no beduins were moved or harmed in any way on the contrary their standard of living has climbed sharply many of them now live in rather nice permanent houses and own cars there are quite a few beduin students in the ben gurion university there are good friendly relations between them and the rest of the population all the beduins i met would be rather surprised to read mr davidson s poster i have to say danny keren it is nonsense danny if you can refute it with proof if you are citing your experience then you should have been there in the s the article is comparing the condition then with that now otherwise it is you who is trying to change the facts ahmed
talk.politics.mideast	re freedom in u s a in article apr virginia edu ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes jaa cunixa cc columbia edu writes dear mr beyer it is never wise to confuse freedom of speech with freedom of racism and violent deragatory it is unfortunate that many fail to understand this crucial distinction in fact if a speach was not offensive to some its protection under freedom of speach laws would be useless it is speach that some find questionable that must be protected be it religiously blasphemous or inherently racist it is only through civilized discourse and not scare tactics that one can enlighten those that one perceives to be ignorant that is the idea behind freedom of expression what you find offensive might be perceived as truth by some and what they might find offensive might be your belief it is only through free exchange of ideas and insults as the case seems to be with this channel that one can change another s erring ways that is why jefferson said that here we are not afraid to tolerate error so long as reason is left to combat it those who forward offensive posts to the sysadmin aren t curtailing anyones freedom of speech the neo nazi movement has a right to make speeches say anything they want they do not have a right to have these speeches published by the n y times that depends on the times analysis of the economic and to somewhat extent newsworthy value of those speeches likewise to the sysadmin of this fellows system if he feels his resources are being used in a manner that is not in his best interests or are perhaps embarassing to his organization he will act just as the new york times does not to be a conduit for these ideas the poster is after all free loading off of someone else s pocket book when he posts he who controls the purse strings has the right to make the decision how he wants those funds spent or not spent noone is going to put the poster in jail unless he bombs a local building as a symbol of his hatred freedom of speech in no way equates to accessibility to conduits of information the market of ideas has its own natural selection process that weeds out the ga ga from the credible ideas that are of importance seth rosenthal disclaimer all opinions are my own not my employers
talk.politics.mideast	re the u s holocaust memorial museum a costly and dangerous mistake in article r pb nkk genesis mcs com arf genesis mcs com jack schmidling writes neither the times nor the trained seals who have responded thus far seem to recognize the statement that these private funds were all tax exmpt in otherwords american taxpayers put up at least of the money dammit how did arfarf s latest excretion escape my kill file oh he changed sites again sigh ok i assume no other person on this planet will ever use the login name of arf arf ak j mike van pelt mvp netcom com local prohibitions cannot block advances in military and commercial technology democratic movements for local restraint can only restrain the world s democracies not the world as a whole k eric drexler
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli terrorism anas the anus anas omran writes in his earlier posting anas a high rank israeli officer was killed during a clash whith a hamas anas mujahid the terrorist israelis chased and killed a young mujahid anas using anti tank missiles the terrorist zionists cut the mujahid s anas body into small pieces to the extend that his body was not recognized anas at leat ten houses were destroyed by these atni tank missiles if indeed israeli soldiers killed a hamas mujahid with an anti tank missile then i m almost sure that the terrorist zionists would not have been able to cut up a body which was probably desintegrated by the missile stop polluting the net with you fantasies tsiel tsiel ohayon jcpl co jp if you do not receive this e mail please let me employer may not have same know as soon as possible if possible opinions if any two percent of zero is almost nothing
talk.politics.mideast	re to be exact million muslims were exterminated by the armenians ac in zuma uucp sera zuma uucp serdar argic pl linden positive eng sun com peter van der linden pl so did the turks kill the armenians ac so did the jews kill the germans ac you even make armenians laugh ac an appropriate analogy with the jewish holocaust might be the ac systematic extermination of the entire muslim population of ac the independent republic of armenia which consisted of at ac least percent of the population of that republic the ac memoirs of an armenian army officer who participated in and ac eye witnessed these atrocities was published in the u s in ac with the title men are like that other references abound typical mutlu pvdl asks if x happened the response is that y happened even if we grant that the armenians did do what cosar accuses them of doing this has no bearing on whether the turks did what they are accused of while i can understand how an ai could be this stupid i can t understand how a human could be such a moron as to either let such an ai run amok or to compose such pointless messages himself i do not expect any followup to this article from argic to do anything to alleviate my puzzlement but maybe i ll see a new line from his list of insults warren nysernet org
talk.politics.mideast	re turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece armenia azeris in article apr iastate edu tankut iastate edu sabri t atan writes in article apr news uiowa edu mau herky cs uiowa edu mau napoleon writes from article apr iastate edu by tankut iastate edu sabri t atan well panos mr tamamidis the way you put it it is only the turks who bear the responsibility of the things happening today that is hard to believe for somebody trying to be objective when it comes to conflicts like our countries having you cannot blame one side only there always are bad guys on both sides what were you doing on anatolia after the ww anyway do you think it was your right to be there i ve heard many turks say this and it surpises me that they don t read about it remember the treaty of sevres as a consequence of being in the axis powers in wwi the turks under international law were supposed to look after their minorities ie greeks armenians kurds i must say turk kurd relations are improving slightly with time and not pose a threat to turkey s neighbours the turks blatantly rejected this treaty the germans grudgingly accepted versailles which was a million times worse for the health and pride of the german people the greeks who had an army there were there with british and french backing to enforce sevres in possibly the first example of appeasement the young turk government managed screwed the treaty of laussane out of the weak allies this was after the greek forces were were destroyed at smyrna when this occurred incidently french warships were in the harbour and many greeks trying escape swam to the french warships and climbed aboard only to get their arms cut off by the french as they clawed they re way up the sides of the ships libertae egalitae fraternatae there were a couple millions of greeks living in asia minor until someone had to protect them if not us who i am not saying that conflicts started with that it is only not one side being the aggressive and the ither always suffering it is sad that we both still are not trying to compromise i remember the action of the turkish government by removing the visa requirement for greeks to come to turkey i thought it was a positive attempt to make the relations better compromise on what the invasion of cyprus the involment of turkey in greek politics the refusal of turkey to accept miles of territorial waters as stated by international law the properties of the greeks of konstantinople the ownership of the islands in the greek lake sorry aegean there are some things on which there can not be a compromise the greeks i mentioned who wouldn t talk to me are educated people they have never met me but they know i am bad person because i am from turkey politics is not my business and it is not the business of most of the turks when it comes to individuals why the hatred any person who supports the policies of the turkish goverment directly or indirecly is a bad person it is not your nationality that makes you bad it is your support of the actions of your goverment that make you bad people do not hate you because of who you are but because of what you are you are a supporter of the policies of the turkish goverment and as a such you must pay the price so that makes me think that there is some kind of brainwashing going on in greece after all why would an educated person treat every person from a nation the same way can you tell me about your history books and things you learn about greek turkish encounters during your schooling take it easy tankut atan tankut iastate edu achtung baby you do not need brainwashing to turn people against the turks just talk to greeks arabs slavs kurds and all other people who had the luck to be under turkish occupation they will talk to you about murders rapes distruction you do not learn about turks from history books you learn about them from people who experienced first hand turkish friendliness napoleon well napoleon it is your kind of people who are preventing peace on the world first of all you didn t answer the question i asked at the end of my posting and then you told me some bullshit throughout your posting which had no positive point about the issue filled with hatred and filled with emotions why am i doing this forget it i don t think you are worth it to discuss the issue tankut atan tankut iastate edu achtung baby
talk.politics.mideast	re conventional proposales israel palestinians the fact that israel is already discussing with some palestinians what the composition of the armed palestinian police force in the territories will be during the transition phase indicates some real solid concessions and liberal thinking on the part of the israeli side chris metcalfe
talk.politics.mideast	a moment of silence for the perpetrators of the turkish genocide in article sdcc ucsd edu ma saj sdcc ucsd edu system operator writes april th is approaching and armenians around the world are getting ready to remember the massacres of their family members celebrating in joy the cold blooded genocide of million muslim people by your criminal grandparents between and did you think that you could cover up the genocide perpetrated by your fascist grandparents against my grandparents in you ve never heard of april rd in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul it is in our power to tear away the veil of illusion that some of us create for ourselves it certainly is possible to severe the artificial life support system of an imagined ethnic purity that some of us falsely trust as the only structure that can support their heart beats in this alien land sahak melkonian preserving the armenian purity during the first world war and the ensuing years the armenian dictatorship through a premeditated and systematic genocide tried to complete its centuries old policy of annihilation against the turks and kurds by savagely murdering million muslims and deporting the rest from their year homeland the attempt at genocide is justly regarded as the first instance of genocide in the th century acted upon an entire people this event is incontrovertibly proven by historians government and international political leaders such as u s ambassador mark bristol william langer ambassador layard james barton stanford shaw arthur chester john dewey robert dunn papazian nalbandian ohanus appressian jorge blanco villalta general nikolayef general bolkovitinof general prjevalski general odiselidze meguerditche kazimir motayef twerdokhlebof general hamelin rawlinson avetis aharonian dr stephan eshnanie varandian general bronsart arfa dr hamlin boghos nubar sarkis atamian katchaznouni rachel bortnick halide edip mccarthy w b allen paul muratoff and many others j c hurewitz professor of government emeritus former director of the middle east institute columbia university bernard lewis cleveland e dodge professor of near eastern history princeton university halil inalcik university professor of ottoman history member of the american academy of arts sciences university of chicago peter golden professor of history rutgers university newark stanford shaw professor of history university of california at los angeles thomas naff professor of history director middle east research institute university of pennsylvania ronald jennings associate professor of history asian studies university of illinois howard reed professor of history university of connecticut dankwart rustow distinguished university professor of political science city university graduate school new york john woods associate professor of middle eastern history university of chicago john masson smith jr professor of history university of california at berkeley alan fisher professor of history michigan state university avigdor levy professor of history brandeis university andreas g e bodrogligetti professor of history university of california at los angeles kathleen burrill associate professor of turkish studies columbia university roderic davison professor of history george washington university walter denny professor of history university of massachusetts caesar farah professor of history university of minnesota tom goodrich professor of history indiana university of pennsylvania tibor halasi kun professor emeritus of turkish studies columbia university justin mccarthy professor of history university of louisville jon mandaville professor of history portland state university oregon robert olson professor of history university of kentucky madeline zilfi professor of history university of maryland james stewart robinson professor of turkish studies university of michigan so the list goes on and on and on serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	ajerk you a good case for rights to abortion system fourd com phone cute quote being a computer means never having to say you re sorry
talk.politics.mideast	argic can you aswer me one question how did you get to be so retarded system fourd com phone cute quote being a computer means never having to say you re sorry
talk.politics.mideast	as armenians celebrating the genocide of million muslim people in article sdcc ucsd edu ma saj sdcc ucsd edu system operator writes or as we have painfully witnessed in azerbaijan would like to see it happen again is this the joke of the month your fascist grandparents exterminated million muslim people between and your nazi parents fully participated in the extermination of the european jewry during wwii your criminal cousins have been slaughtering muslim women children and elderly people in fascist x soviet armenia and karabag for the last four years the entire population of x soviet armenia now as a result of the genocide of million muslim people are armenians for nearly one thousand years the turkish and kurdish people lived on their homeland the last one hundred under the oppressive soviet and armenian occupation the persecutions culminated in the armenian government planned and carried out a genocide against its muslim subjects million turks and kurds were murdered and the remainder driven out of their homeland after one thousand years turkish and kurdish lands were empty of turks and kurds the survivors found a safe heaven in turkiye today x soviet armenian government rejects the right of turks and kurds to return to their muslim lands occupied by x soviet armenia today x soviet armenian government covers up the genocide perpetrated by its predecessors and is therefore an accessory to this crime against humanity x soviet armenian government must pay for their crime of genocide against the muslims by admitting to the crime and making reparations to the turks and kurds turks and kurds demand the right to return to their lands to determine their own future as a nation in their own homeland during the th anniversary we come once again reiterate the unity of the muslim people the timelessness of the turkish and kurdish demands and the desire to pursue the struggle for that restitution a struggle that unites all turks and kurds today we appeal to all turkish and kurdish people in the united states and canada to participate en masse in the commemorative events be they cultural political or religious serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	as today marks the th anniversary of the turkish genocide in article sdcc ucsd edu ma saj sdcc ucsd edu system operator writes or as we have painfully witnessed in azerbaijan would like to see it happen again is this the joke of the month your fascist grandparents exterminated million muslim people between and your nazi parents fully participated in the extermination of the european jewry during wwii your criminal cousins have been slaughtering muslim women children and elderly people in fascist x soviet armenia and karabag for the last four years the entire population of x soviet armenia now as a result of the genocide of million muslim people are armenians for nearly one thousand years the turkish and kurdish people lived on their homeland the last one hundred under the oppressive soviet and armenian occupation the persecutions culminated in the armenian government planned and carried out a genocide against its muslim subjects million turks and kurds were murdered and the remainder driven out of their homeland after one thousand years turkish and kurdish lands were empty of turks and kurds the survivors found a safe heaven in turkiye today x soviet armenian government rejects the right of turks and kurds to return to their muslim lands occupied by x soviet armenia today x soviet armenian government covers up the genocide perpetrated by its predecessors and is therefore an accessory to this crime against humanity x soviet armenian government must pay for their crime of genocide against the muslims by admitting to the crime and making reparations to the turks and kurds turks and kurds demand the right to return to their lands to determine their own future as a nation in their own homeland during the th anniversary we come once again reiterate the unity of the muslim people the timelessness of the turkish and kurdish demands and the desire to pursue the struggle for that restitution a struggle that unites all turks and kurds today we appeal to all turkish and kurdish people in the united states and canada to participate en masse in the commemorative events be they cultural political or religious serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	armenians were also partners in nazi practices in article c vbnv cj blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee writes this implies both sides are equal true it may sometimes be difficult or still living in an alternate universe numerous articles in major newspapers london times and periodicals newsweek during the war had suggested the existence of a significant collaboration between armenians and the nazis arthur derounian deserves credit for being the first person to deal with this issue extensively derounian s motives were twofold his deeply held democratic convictions gave him a sense of duty and he felt obliged to shed light on this yet another dark chapter of armenian history concurrently derounian embarked on what one would call crisis control or face saving in order to forestall any potential attacks on the larger armenian community in the united states he marginalized collaboration as deplorable but insignificant john roy carlson real name arthur derounian the plotters e p dutton company inc new york p source mitteilungsblatt berlin december nr and yet another historical fact a fact that for years has been deliberately forgotten concealed and wiped from memory the fact of armenian nazi collaboration a magazine called mitteilungsblatt der deutsch armenischen gesselschaft is the clearest and most definite proof of this collaboration the magazine was first published in berlin in during nazi rule of germany and continued publication until the end of even the name of the magazine which implies a declaration of armenian nazi cooperation is attention getting this magazine every issue of which proves the collaboration is historically important as documentary evidence it is a heap of writing that should be an admonition to world opinion and to all mankind in nazi germany armenians were considered to be an aryan race and certain political economic and social rights were thus granted to them they occupied positions in public service and were partners in nazi practices the whole world of course knows what awaited those who were not considered aryan and what befell them now wait there is more source from sardarapat to sevres and lausanne by avetis aharonian the armenian review vol no autumn sep pp p second paragraph your three chiefs dro hamazasp and kulkhandanian are the ringleaders of the bands which have destroyed tartar villages and have staged massacres in zangezour surmali etchmiadzin and zangibasar this is intolerable look and here he pointed to a file of official documents on the table look at this here in december are the reports of the last few months concerning ruined tartar villages which my representative wardrop has sent me the official tartar communique speaks of the destruction of villages p fifth paragraph yes of course i repeat until this massacre of the tartars is stopped and the three chiefs are not removed from your military leadership i hardly think we can supply you arms and ammunition it is the armed bands led by dro hamazasp and kulkhandanian who during the past months have raided and destroyed many tartar villages in the regions of surmali etchmiadzin zangezour and zangibasar there are official charges of massacres serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	this year the turkish nation is mourning and praying again for referring to notes from the personal diary of russian general l odishe liyetze on the turkish front he wrote on the nights march alone armenian butchers bayoneted and axed to death muslims in areas surrounding erzincan these barbars threw their victims into pits most likely dug according to their sinister plans to extinguish muslims in groups of my adjutant counted and unearthed such pits this is an act against our world of civilization on march lieut colonel griyaznof wrote from an official russian account of the turkish genocide roads leading to villages were littered with bayoneted torsos dismembered joints and carved out organs of muslim peasants alas mainly of women and children source doc dr azmi suslu russian view on the atrocities committed by the armenians against the turks ankara universitesi ankara pp document no archive no cabin no drawer no file no section no contents no acting commander of erzurum and deveboynu regions and commander of the second erzurum artillery regiment prisoner of war lieutenant colonel toverdodleyov the things i have heard and seen during the two months until the liberation of erzurum by the turks have surpassed all the allegations concerning the vicious degenerate characteristic of the armenians during the russian occupation of erzurum no armenian was permitted to approach the city and its environs while the commander of the first army corps general kaltiyin remained in power troops including armenian enlisted men were not sent to the area when the security measures were lifted the armenians began to attack erzurum and its surroundings following the attacks came the plundering of the houses in the city and the villages and the murder of the owners of these houses plundering was widely committed by the soldiers this plunder was mainly committed by armenian soldiers who had remained in the rear during the war one day while passing through the streets on horseback a group of soldiers including an armenian soldier began to drag two old men of seventy years in a certain direction the roads were covered with mud and these people were dragging the two helpless turks through the mud and dirt it was understood later that all these were nothing but tricks and traps the turks who joined the gendarmarie soon changed their minds and withdrew the reason was that most of the turks who were on night patrol did not return and no one knew what had happened to them the turks who had been sent outside the city for labour began to disappear also finally the court martial which had been established for the trials of murderers and plunderers began to liquidate itself for fear that they themselves would be punished the incidents of murder and rape which had decreased began to occur more frequently sometime in january and february a leading turkish citizen haci bekir efendi from erzurum was killed one night at his home the commander in chief odiselidge gave orders to find murderers within three days the commander in chief has bitterly reminded the armenian intellectuals that disobedience among the armenian enlisted men had reached its highest point that they had insulted and robbed the people and half of the turks sent outside the city had not returned we learnt the details this incident from the commander in chief odishelidge they were as follows the killings were organized by the doctors and the employers and the act of killing was committed solely by the armenian renegades more than eight hundred unarmed and defenceless turks have been killed in erzincan large holes were dug and the defenceless turks were slaughtered like animals next to the holes later the murdered turks were thrown into the holes the armenian who stood near the hole would say when the hole was filled with the corpses seventy dead bodies well this hole can take ten more thus ten more turks would be cut into pieces thrown into the hole and when the hole was full it would be covered over with soil the armenians responsible for the act of murdering would frequently fill a house with eighty turks and cut their heads off one by one following the erzincan massacre the armenians began to withdraw towards erzurum the armenian renegades among those who withdrew to erzurum from erzincan raided the moslem villages on the road and destroyed the entire population together with the villages during the transportation of the cannons ammunition and the carriages that were outside the war area certain people were hired among the kurdish population to conduct the horse carriages while the travellers were passing through erzurum the armenians took advantage of the time when the russian soldiers were in their dwellings and began to kill the kurds they had hired when the russian soldiers heard the cries of the dying kurds they attempted to help them however the armenians threatened the russian soldiers by vowing that they would have the same fate if they intervened and thus prevented them from acting all these terrifying acts of slaughter were committed with hatred and loathing lieutenant medivani from the russian army described an incident that he witnessed in erzurum as follows an armenian had shot a kurd the kurd fell down but did not die the armenian attempted to force the stick in his hand into the mouth of the dying kurd however since the kurd had firmly closed his jaws in his agony the armenian failed in his attempt having seen this the armenian ripped open the abdomen of the kurd disembowelled him and finally killed him by stamping him with the iron heel of his boot odishelidge himself told us that all the turks who could not escape from the village of ilica were killed their heads had been cut off by axes he also told us that he had seen thousands of murdered children lieutenant colonel gryaznov who passed through the village of ilica three weeks after the massacre told us the following there were thousands of dead bodies hacked to pieces on the roads every armenian who happened to pass through these roads cursed and spat on the corpses in the courtyard of a mosque which was about x meter square dead bodies were piled to a height of centimeters among these corpses were men and women of every age children and old people the women s bodies had obvious marks of rape the genitals of many girls were filled with gun powder a few educated armenian girls who worked as telephone operators for the armenian troops were called by lieutenant colonel gryaznov to the courtyard of the mosque and he bitterly told them to be proud of what the armenians had done to the lieutenant colonel s disgusted amazement the armenian girls started to laugh and giggle instead of being horrified the lieutenant colonel had severely reprimanded those girls for their indecent behaviour when he told the girls that the armenians including women were generally more licentious than even the wildest animals and that their indecent and shameful laughter was the most obvious evidence of their inhumanity and barbarity before a scene that appalled even veteran soldiers the armenian girls finally remembered their sense of shame and claimed they had laughed because they were nervous an armenian contractor at the alaca communication zone command narrated the following incident which took place on february the armenians had nailed a turkish women to the wall they had cut out the women s heart and placed the heart on top of her head the great massacre in erzurum began on february the enlisted men of the artillery division caught and stripped people then they took these people into the bath to satisfy their lusts people among this group were able to save their lives as the result of my decisive attempts the others the armenians claimed were released when they learnt that i understood what was going on among those who organized this treacherous act was the envoy to the armenian officers karagodaviev today some turks were murdered on the streets on february some armenians have shot more than ten innocent moslems the russian soldiers who attempted to save these people were threatened with death meanwhile i imprisoned an armenian for murdering an innocent turk when an armenian officer told an armenian murderer that he would be hanged for his crime the killer shouted furiously how dare you hang an armenian for killing a turk in erzurum the armenians burned down the turkish market on february i heard that the entire population of tepekoy village situated within the artillery area had been totally annihilated on the same day when antranik entered erzurum i reported the massacre to him and asked him to track down the perpetrators of this horrible act however no result was achieved in the villages whose inhabitants had been massacred there was a natural silence on the night of february the armenians deceived the russians perpetrated a massacre and escaped for fear of the turkish soldiers later it was understood that this massacre had been based upon a method organized and planned in a circular the population had been herded in a certain place and then killed one by one the number of murders committed on that night reached three thousand it was the armenians who bragged to about the details of the massacre the armenians fighting against the turkish soldiers were so few in number and so cowardly that they could not even withstand the turkish soldiers who consisted of only five hundred people and two cannons for one night and ran away the leading armenians of the community could have prevented this massacre however the armenian intellectuals had shared the same ideas with the renegades in this massacre just as in all the others the lower classes within the armenian community have always obeyed the orders of the leading armenian figures and commanders i do not like to give the impression that all armenian intellectuals were accessories to these murders no for there were people who opposed the armenians for such actions since they understood that it would yield no result however such people were only a minority furthermore such people were considered as traitors to the armenian cause some have seemingly opposed the armenian murders but have supported the massacres secretly some on the other hand preferred to remain silent there were certain others who when accused by the russians of infamy would say the following you are russians you can never understand the armenian cause the armenians had a conscience they would commit massacres and then would flee in fear of the turkish soldiers serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli terrorism in article rd eo a usenet ins cwru edu cy cleveland freenet edu anas omran writes in a previous article tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock says in article apr virginia edu ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes since one is also unlikely to get the truth from either arab or palestinian news outlets where do we go to understand to learn is one form of propoganda more reliable than another there are many neutral human rights organizations which always report on the situation in the o t a neutral organization would report on the situation in israel where the elderly and children are the victims of stabbings by hamas activists a neutral organization might also report that israeli arabs have full civil rights the israelis used to arrest and sometimes to kill some of these neutral reporters care to name names or is this yet another unsubstantiated slander so this is another kind of terrorism committed by the jews in palestine they do not allow fair and neutral coverage of the situation in palestine terrorism as you would know if you had a spine that allowed you to stand up is random attacks on civilians terorism includes such things as shooting a cripple and thowing him off the side of a boat because he happens to be jewish not allowing people to go where they are likely to be stabbed and killed like a certain lawyer killed last week is not terorism adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
talk.politics.mideast	re legality of the jewish purchase in article apr news columbia edu ayr cunixa cc columbia edu amir y rosenblatt writes in article apr bnr ca zbib bnr ca writes it was shafting on the part of the arab land owners for doing it without notifying their tenant farmers and for not being responsible enough to make provisions for them but rather just leaving them to their fate if a landlord sells an apartment building vacant to another landlord and fails to notify his tenants they just might find themselves out on the street all of a sudden the seller may be a scoundrel and a crook but this doesn t make the buyer a thief as israelis are so often called here on tpm it is interesting though that you acknowledge that the palestinians were shafted do many israelis or jews share your opinion do you absolve the purchaser from any ethical commitments just because it wasn t written down i don t know if others share this opinion it is mine and i m sure there are some who agree and some who don t the way i see it the fallahin were caught in circumstances beyond their control in that since they didn t own the land they didn t have a say of course now for the sake of the greater arab unity the arabs are angry that the land was sold to the jews an act that is illegal in jordan but when it happened it was just business the arabs that lived along the coast in western palestine later to be called israel were shafted by their brother arabs just as they ve been shafted for decades since then by their arab bretheren somehow though the arab call has continued to blame israel not only for the syrian landowner sell out in western palestine israel but even for the occupation of eastern palestine jordan by the hashemites this is just more of refusing to take blame for one s own actions infra structure etc imho the palestinians have grounds to contest the legality of the purchase say in world court if your job was eliminated in a corporate takeover you could probably go to court too you d probably lose though jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	re about this center for policy resea in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes it seems to me that many readers of this conference are interested who is behind the center for polict research i will oblige trumpets please my name is elias davidsson icelandic citizen born in palestine my mother was thrown from germany because she belonged to the undesirables at that times this group was defined as jews she was forced to go to palestine due to many cynical factors forced to go to palestine how dreadful unlike other undesirables jews she wasn t forced to go into a gas chamber forced under a bulldozer thrown into a river forced into a medical experiment like a rat forced to march until she dropped dead burned to nothingness in a crematorium your mother was forced to go to palestine you have our deepest sympathies i have meanwhile settled in iceland years ago we are pleased to hear of your escape at least you won t have to suffer the same fate that your mother did and met many people who were thrown out from my homeland palestine your homeland palestine because of the same reason they belonged to the indesirables should we assume that you are refering here to jews who were kicked out of their homes in jerusalem during the jordanian occupation of east jerusalem these are the same people who are now being called thieves for re claiming houses that they once owned and lived in and never sold to anyone these people include my neighbors in jerusalem with the children of whom i played as child their crime theyare not jews i have never heard of not being a jew as a crime certainly in israel there is no such crime in some times and places being a jew is a crime but not being a jew my conscience does not accept such injustice period our brains do not accept your logic yet either my work for justice is done in the name of my principled opposition to racism and racial discrimination those who protest against such practices in arab countries have my support as long as their protest is based on a principled position but not as a tactic to deflect criticism from israel the way you ve written this you seem to accept criticism in the arab world unless it deflects criticism from israel in which case we have to presume you no longer support criticism of the arab world the struggle against discrimination and racism is universal look who s taling about discrimination now the center for policy research is a name i gave to those activities undertaken under my guidance in different domains and which command the support of many volunteers in iceland it is however not a formal institution and works with minimal funds be careful you are starting to sound like barfling professionally i am music teacher and composer i have published several pieces and my piano music is taught widely in europe i would hope that discussion about israel palestine be conducted in a more civilized manner calling names is not helpful good don t call yourself arf or the center for policy research either jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	re the u s holocaust memorial museum a costly and dangerous mistake in article c wpad k specialix com jim specialix com jim maurer writes arf genesis mcs com jack schmidling writes recognize the statement that these private funds were all tax exmpt in the donations are tax deductible like any donations to a non profit organization i ve donated money to a group restoring streetcars and it was tax deductible why don t you contribute to a group helping the homeless if you so concerned i do did contribute to the arf mortgage fund but when interest rates plumetted i just paid it off the problem is i couldn t convince congress to move my home to a nicer location on federal land btw even though the building is alleged to be funded by tax exempt private funds the maintainence and operating costs will be borne by taxpayers forever would anyone like to guess how much that will come to and tell us why this point is never mentioned js
talk.politics.mideast	re seventh century a d armenian math problems a delightful message interesting and so kindly written thanks prof m kramer boston university
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli terrorism in article bdad news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes in article amoss apr shuldig cs huji ac il amoss shuldig cs huji ac il amos shapira writes cy cleveland freenet edu anas omran writes eh could you please give me details about an event where a neutral observer was killed by purpose by an israeli soldier actually i m still trying to understand the self justifying rationale behind the recent murder of ian feinberg in gaza hate to be simple minded about this tim but i think its really very simple he was a dirty jew and the only good jew in some peoples mind is a dead jew thats what years of propaganda that fails to discriminate between jew and zionist will do thats what years of statements like the ones i ve appended will do to someones mind they make people sick they drag down political discourse to the point where killing your opponent is an honorable way to resolve a dispute what else can come of such demagogery peace adam arafat on political pluralism any palestinian leader who suggests ending the intifada exposes himself to the bullets of his own people and endangers his life the plo will know how to deal with him arafat kuwaiti news agency arafat on the massacre at tienamin square on behalf of the arab palestinian people their leadership and myself i take this opportunity to express extreme gratification that you were able to restore normal order after the recent incidents in people s china arafat in telegram sent to the head of the chinese communist party yassir arafat humanitarian open fire on the new jewish immigrants be they from the soviet union ethiopia or anywhere else it would be a disgrace if we did not lift a finger while herds of immigrants settle our territory i want you to shoot it makes no difference if they live in jaffa or jericho i give you explicit orders to open fire do everything to stop the flow of immigration yassir arafat al muharar lebanese weekly april yassir arafat on genocide when the arabs set off their volcano there will only be arabs in this part of the world our people will continue to fuel the torch of the revolution with rivers of blood until the whole of the occupied homeland is liberated yasser arafat ap adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
talk.politics.mideast	letter to president members of congress newspapers tv stations today marks the th anniversary of the armenian genocide of million turks and kurds in eastern anatolia and x soviet armenia the following letter which represents a small portion of the full text along with more than pages of historical documents scholarly sources eyewitness accounts and photographs was sent to president bill clinton members of congress editors program directors and columnists of major newspapers journals and radio tv stations for the th anniversary of the armenian genocide of million muslim people on april of every year the people of turkiye remember their dead they grieve for lost family and the lost homes of their grandfathers this year the turkish nation is mourning and praying again for her fallen heroes who gave their lives generously and with altruism so that the future generations may live on that anointed soil of the turkish land happily and prosperously letter during the years of world war i the x soviet armenian government has planned and perpetrated the genocide of the muslim people which not only took the lives of million muslim people but was also the method used to empty the turkish homeland of its inhabitants to this day turkish historic lands remain occupied by the x soviet armenia in order to cover up the fact of its usurpation of the historic turkish homeland which is the crux of turkish political demands fascist x soviet armenia continues its anti turkish policy in the following ways x soviet armenia denies the historical fact of the turkish genocide in order to shift international public opinion away from its political responsibility x soviet armenia employing asala sdpa arf terrorism and revisionism triangle attempts to call into question the veracity of the turkish genocide x soviet armenia has also implemented state sponsored terrorism through the asala sdpa arf terrorism and revisionism triangle in an attempt to silence the turkish people s vehement demands and protests using all its human financial and governmental resources x soviet armenia and its tools in the united states attempt to silence through terrorism bribery and other subversive methods non turkish supporters of the turkish cause be they political governmental and humanitarian using all the aforementioned methods the x soviet armenian government is attempting to neutralize the international diplomatic community from making the turkish case a contemporary issue yet despite the efforts of the x soviet armenian government and its terrorist and revisionist organizations in the last decades thanks to the struggle of those whose closest ones have been systematically exterminated by the armenians the international wall of silence on this issue has begun to collapse and consequently a number of governments and organizations have become supportive of the recognition of the turkish genocide with the full knowledge that the struggle for the turkish territorial demands are still in their initial stages the turkish and kurdish people will unflaggingly continue in this sacred struggle therefore the victims of the turkish genocide demand that the x soviet armenian government as the heirs of the armenian dictatorship recognize the turkish genocide that x soviet armenia return the historic homeland to the turkish and kurdish people that the x soviet armenian government make material reparations for their heinous and unspeakable crime to the victims of the turkish genocide that all world governments and especially the united states officially recognize the turkish genocide and turkish territorial rights and refuse to succumb to all armenian political pressure that the u s government free itself from the friendly position it has adopted towards its unreliable ally x soviet armenia and officially recognize the historical fact of the turkish genocide as well as be supportive of the pursuit of turkish territorial demands that the x soviet republics officially recognize the historical fact of the turkish genocide and include the cold blooded extermination of million muslim people in their history books the awareness of the turkish people of the necessity of solidarity in the efforts to pursue the turkish cause is seen by the victims of the first genocide of the th century as a positive step furthermore a new generation has risen equipped with a deep sense of commitment politically mature and conscious who determinedly pursue the turkish cause through all necessary means ranging from the political and diplomatic to the armed struggle therefore the victims of the turkish genocide call upon all muslims in the united states and canada to participate vigorously in the political cultural and religious activities of the th anniversary of the armenian genocide of million muslim people serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	freeman watch your language asshole proline cosmo pro angmar internet cosmo pro angmar alfalfa com uucp uunet bu edu alphalpha pro angmar cosmo
talk.politics.mideast	re final solution for gaza in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes the gaza strip this tiny area of land with the highest population density in the world has been cut off from the world for weeks the israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of gaza some people by denying them the right to leave the strip and seek work in israel anyone who can repeate this choice piece of tripe without checking his her sources does not deserve to be believed the gaza strip does not possess the highest population density in the world in fact it isn t even close just one example will serve to illustrate the folly of this statement the city of hong kong has nearly ten times the population of the gaza strip in a roughly comparable land area the centers of numerous cities also possess comparable if not far higher population densities examples include manhattan island ny city sao paolo ciudad de mexico bombay need i go on the rest of mr davidsson s message is no closer to the truth than this oft repeated statement is how sad to see a model of decorum and tranquillity become like any other sport a battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee tim rice chess eric s perlman perlman qso colorado edu center for astrophysics and space astronomy university of colorado boulder
talk.politics.mideast	re israel s expansion ii organization aiken computation lab harvard university keywords in article pp a auvm american edu paul h pimentel pp a auvm american edu writes what gives isreal the right to keep jeruseleum it is the home of the muslim a s well as jewish religion among others israel has a right to keep jerusalem for many reasons they include the fact that the majority of the citizens are israeli the fact that israel maintains religious freedom for all people and the historical connection of judaism to jerusalem when jerusalem was devided by a jordanian invasion in the cease fire agreement included the right of individuals to visit religious shrines this cease fire agreement was violated by jordan who did not allow jews to visit holy sites under their control the jordanians also bulldozed every synagoge in the city they turned a jewish cemetary into a hotel and used the gravestones in their latrines israel has allowed individuals of all religions into jerusalem protected holy sites and demonstrated its fitness to control the city also i should point out that islam is not centered in jerusalem but has holy sites there the home of islam is mecca where all muslims should make a pilgramage the hajj unlike israeli jerusalem jews and christians are not allowed in saudi mecca adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
talk.politics.mideast	re israel s expansion ii in article apr vm mcgill ca b ha b ha musicb mcgill ca writes in article apr donau et tudelft nl avi duteinh et tudelft nl avi cohen stuart writes from article pp a auvm american edu by paul h pimentel pp a auvm american edu there is one big difference between israel and the arabs christians in this respect israel allows freedom of religion avi for your information islam permits freedom of religion there is no compulsion in religion does judaism permit freedom of religion i e are non jews recognized in judaism just wondering in islam there is no compulsion just a tax on dhimini in judaism non jews are allowed to do as they wish and there is no effort made to convert them adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
talk.politics.mideast	re seventh century a d armenian math problems in article r qn innd n flop engr orst edu koc rize ece orst edu cetin kaya koc responded to article apr urartu sdpa org dbd urartu sdpa org david davidian who wrote dd problem dd dd my father told me the following story during the famous wars between the dd armenians and the persians prince zaurak kamsarakan performed dd extraordinary heroic deeds three times in a single month he attacked the dd persian troops the first time he struck down half of the persian army dd the second time pursuing the persians he slaughtered one fourth of the dd soldiers the third time he destroyed one eleventh of the persian army dd the persians who were still alive numbering two hundred eighty fled to dd nakhichevan and so from this remainder find how many persian soldiers dd there were before the massacre koc answer a a good for you you win the prize a free trip to karabakh as an azeri soldier now calculate the odds of you coming back after trying to de populate the area of armenians koc corollary armenians strike slaughter destroy and massacre after koc all they are not as innocent as the asala network claims fact i didn t notice any mention of turks in shirak van or trebizon in this seventh century story fact these places were filled with armenians as of fact by the end of after the turkish genocide of the armenians there were no armenians left in shirak van or trebizon only turks and kurds in fact there were no pontus greeks left alive in trebizon either conclusion numbers don t lie in either case david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
talk.politics.mideast	re final solution for gaza in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes other people have commented on most of this swill i figured i d add a few comments of my own the gaza strip this tiny area of land with the highest population density in the world has been cut off from the world for weeks hong kong and cairo both have higher population densities the israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of gaza some people by denying them the right to leave the strip and seek work in israel there is no fundamental right to work in another country and the closing of the strip is not a punishment it is a security measure to stop people from stabbing israelis the only help given to gazans by israeli jews only dozens of people is humanitarian assistance dozens minus one since one of them was stabbed to death a few days ago adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
talk.politics.mideast	re final solution in palestine in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu ahmeda mcrcim mcgill edu ahmed abu abed writes in article hm apr angell cs brown edu hm cs brown edu harry mamaysky writes in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes final solution for the gaza ghetto while israeli jews fete the uprising of the warsaw ghetto they repress by violent means the uprising of the gaza ghetto and attempt to starve the gazans the jews in the warsaw ghetto were fighting to keep themselves and their families from being sent to nazi gas chambers groups like hamas and the islamic jihad fight with the expressed purpose of driving all jews into the sea perhaps we should persuade jewish people to help these wnderful freedom fighters attain this ultimate goal maybe the freedom fighters will choose to spare the co operative jews is that what you are counting on elias the pity of murderers you say your mother was jewish how ashamed she must be of her son i am sorry mrs davidsson harry o k its my turn driving the jews into the sea i am sick and tired of this driving the jews into the sea sentance attributed to islamic movements and the plo it simply can t be proven as part of their plan this has been discussed before by several people on this net the statement is attributable either to hajj amin al husseini former grand mufti of jerusalem and the leader of the palestinian death squads during the war or to one of his chief henchmen it was not coined by b nai b rith or for that matter any jewish organization how sad to see a model of decorum and tranquillity become like any other sport a battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee tim rice chess eric s perlman perlman qso colorado edu center for astrophysics and space astronomy university of colorado boulder
talk.politics.mideast	re symbiotics idiots antisemitism in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes from center for policy research cpr zionism and the holocaust by haim bresheeth the first point to note regarding the appropriation of the history of the holocaust by zionist propaganda is that zionism without anti semitism is impossible zionism agrees with the basic tenet of anti semitism namely that jews cannot live with non jews wrong zionism acknowledges the fact that anti semites exist and prevent jews from living in peace that does not mean we agree that jews are all greedy that jews kill christian children commited deicide or anything else we acknowledge that there are morons out there who do believe these things adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
talk.politics.mideast	re go hizbollah ii in article apr utxvms cc utexas edu ifaz utxvms cc utexas edu noam tractinsky writes paraphrasing a bit with every rocket that the hizbollah fires on the galilee they justify israel s holding to the security zone noam i only want to say that i agree with noam on this point and i hope that all sides stop targeting civilians basil
talk.politics.mideast	happy birthday israel israel happy th birthday
talk.politics.mideast	re final solution for gaza in article apr colorado edu perlman qso colorado edu eric s perlman writes in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes the gaza strip this tiny area of land with the highest population density in the world has been cut off from the world for weeks the israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of gaza some people by denying them the right to leave the strip and seek work in israel anyone who can repeate this choice piece of tripe without checking his her sources does not deserve to be believed the gaza strip does not possess the highest population density in the world in fact it isn t even close just one example will serve to illustrate the folly of this statement the city of hong kong has nearly ten times the population of the gaza strip in a roughly comparable land area the centers of numerous cities also possess comparable if not far higher population densities examples include manhattan island ny city sao paolo ciudad de mexico bombay need i go on the rest of mr davidsson s message is no closer to the truth than this oft repeated statement is elias initial statement certain is hot air but it seems to be almost standard procedure around here to first throw out an absurb overstated image in order to add extra meaning to the posting s real point however his second statement is quite real the essential sealing off of gaza residents from the possibility of making a living has happened certainly the israeli had a legitimate worry behind the action they took but isn t that action a little draconian tim clock ph d graduate student uci tel department of politics and society fax university of california irvine home tel irvine ca
talk.politics.mideast	re final solution in palestine in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu ahmeda mcrcim mcgill edu ahmed abu abed writes in article hm apr angell cs brown edu hm cs brown edu harry mamaysky writes in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes final solution for the gaza ghetto while israeli jews fete the uprising of the warsaw ghetto they repress by violent means the uprising of the gaza ghetto and attempt to starve the gazans the jews in the warsaw ghetto were fighting to keep themselves and their families from being sent to nazi gas chambers groups like hamas and the islamic jihad fight with the expressed purpose of driving all jews into the sea perhaps we should persuade jewish people to help these wnderful freedom fighters attain this ultimate goal maybe the freedom fighters will choose to spare the co operative jews is that what you are counting on elias the pity of murderers you say your mother was jewish how ashamed she must be of her son i am sorry mrs davidsson harry o k its my turn driving the jews into the sea i am sick and tired of this driving the jews into the sea sentance attributed to islamic movements and the plo it simply can t be proven as part of their plan pro israeli activists repeat it like parrots without checking its authenticity since it was coined by bnai brith what hamas and islamic jihad believe in as far as i can get from the arab media is an islamic state that protects the rights of all its inhabitants under koranic law this would be a reversal of the situation in which the jews in palestine took control of the land and its mostly muslim inhabitants however whoever committed crimes against humanity torture blowing up their homes murders must be treated and tried as a war criminal the political thought of these movements shows that a freedom of choice will be given to the jews in living under the new law or leaving to the destintion of their choice as for the plo i am at a loss to explain what is going inside arafat s mind although their political thinking seems far fetched with israel acting as a true super power in the region the islamic movements are using the same weapon the jews used to establish their state religion ahmed forget the syntax ahmed and focus on the semnatics the fact is that the plo does not recognize israel s right to exist this is perfectly obvious from the plo covenant cairo the covenant calls for the destruction of the zionist entity as far as i know the israel destruction clauses still exist in the document which specifies the purpose for the existence of the plo if you would like i can post the relevant caluses now the hamas ideal is far more radical it seems i know it has been posted here several times and while i do not have a copy of it i am sure that someone does and he or she of course would be more than happy to repost it regardless of phrasing groups like hamas and the hezbollah and even the newly moderate and politically correct plo have at the very heart of their ideologies the need for the destrcution of israel it just seems to me that mr davidsson s suggestion that jews support people envolved in these organizations is not a particularly appealing one to many jews harry
talk.politics.mideast	re go hizbollah ii in article apr yuma acns colostate edu bh lance colostate edu writes in article apr utxvms cc utexas edu ifaz utxvms cc utexas edu noam tractinsky writes paraphrasing a bit with every rocket that the hizbollah fires on the galilee they justify israel s holding to the security zone noam i only want to say that i agree with noam on this point and i hope that all sides stop targeting civilians basil absolutely i m sure that civilians on both sides would be pleased if the fighters military guerilla whatever would just take their argument elsewhere find an unpopulated area somewhere and slug it out at that point we will all breath a sigh of relief and cheer for our side in the struggle tim clock ph d graduate student uci tel department of politics and society fax university of california irvine home tel irvine ca
talk.politics.mideast	sea what sea we said rivers in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu ahmeda mcrcim mcgill edu ahmed abu abed writes i am sick and tired of this driving the jews into the sea sentance attributed to islamic movements and the plo it simply can t be proven as part of their plan ok i ll admit it i can t find a quote with my meager online resources but i did find this little gem when the arabs set off their volcano there will only be arabs in this part of the world our people will continue to fuel the torch of the revolution with rivers of blood until the whole of the occupied homeland is liberated yasser arafat ap so ahmed is right there was nothing about driving jews into the sea just a bit of ethnic cleansing and a river of blood is this an improvement adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
talk.politics.mideast	re the israeli press in article benali alcor benali alcor concordia ca ilyess b bdira writes of course you never read arab media i don t though when i was in israel i did make a point of listening to jtv news as well as monte carlo radio in the united states i generally read the nyt and occasionally a mainstream israeli newpaper i read arab israeli jer post and this network is more than enough and western american french and british reports and i can say that if we give israel and arabs on the bias scale of course you can switch the polarities israeli newspapers will get either a or american leading newspapers and tv news range from to yes there are some that are more israelis than israelis the montreal suburban a local free newspaper probably is closer to kahane s views than some israeli right wing newspapers british range from neutral to french that iknow of of course range from afro french magazines to arab official media range from to egyptian to in sa why no because they do not want to overdo it and stir people against israel and therefore against them since they are doing nothing what you may not be taking into account is that the jp is no longer representative of the mainstream in israel it was purchased a few years ago and in the battle for control most of the liberal and left wing reporters walked out the new owner stated in the past more than once that the jp s task should be geared towards explaining and promoting israel s position more than attacking the gov t likud at the time the paper that i would recommend reading being middle stream and factual is ha aretz or at least this was the case two years ago the average bias of what you read would be probably around while that of the average american would be the same if they do not read or read the new york times and similar news makers and if they read some other relatively less biased newspapers and what about the nat l enquirer but seriously if one were to read some of the leftist newspapers one could arrive at other conclusions the information you received was highly selective and extrapolating from it is a bad move shai guday stealth bombers os software engineer thinking machines corp the winged ninja of the skies cambridge ma
talk.politics.mideast	re happy birthday israel in article c r f s news cso uiuc edu eshneken ux cso uiuc edu edward a shnekendorf writes israel happy th birthday may you and your neighbors know peace even before you see
talk.politics.mideast	re seventh century a d armenian math problems koc rize ece orst edu cetin kaya koc writes problem my father told me the following story during the famous wars between the armenians and the persians prince zaurak kamsarakan performed extraordinary heroic deeds three times in a single month he attacked the persian troops the first time he struck down half of the persian army the second time pursuing the persians he slaughtered one fourth of the soldiers the third time he destroyed one eleventh of the persian army the persians who were still alive numbering two hundred eighty fled to nakhichevan and so from this remainder find how many persian soldiers there were before the massacre answer a a corollary armenians strike slaughter destroy and massacre after all they are not as innocent as the asala network claims hmm turks sure know how to keep track of deaths but they seem to lose count around million hovig
talk.politics.mideast	re to be exact million muslims were exterminated by the armenians ac in zuma uucp sera zuma uucp serdar argic pl linden positive eng sun com peter van der linden pl so did the turks kill the armenians ac so did the jews kill the germans ac you even make armenians laugh ac an appropriate analogy with the jewish holocaust might be the ac systematic extermination of the entire muslim population of ac the independent republic of armenia which consisted of at ac least percent of the population of that republic the ac memoirs of an armenian army officer who participated in and ac eye witnessed these atrocities was published in the u s in ac with the title men are like that other references abound typical mutlu pvdl asks if x happened the response is that y happened even if we grant that the armenians did do what cosar accuses them of doing this has no bearing on whether the turks did what they are accused of while i can understand how an ai could be this stupid i can t understand how a human could be such a moron as to either let such an ai run amok or to compose such pointless messages himself i do not expect any followup to this article from argic to do anything to alleviate my puzzlement but maybe i ll see a new line from his list of insults this article is supplied without longbox and uses recycled words characters and ideas warren nysernet org
talk.politics.mideast	re final solution in palestine in article hm apr barney cs brown edu hm cs brown edu harry mamaysky writes in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu ahmeda mcrcim mcgill edu ahmed abu abed writes driving the jews into the sea i am sick and tired of this driving the jews into the sea sentance attributed to islamic movements and the plo it simply can t be proven as part of their plan proven maybe not but it can certainly be verified beyond a reasonable doubt this statement and statements like it are a matter of public record before the six day war i think nasser and some other arab leaders were broadcasting these statements on arab radio you might want to check out some old newspapers ahmed what hamas and islamic jihad believe in as far as i can get from the arab media is an islamic state that protects the rights of all its inhabitants under koranic law i think if you take a look at the hamas covenant written in you might get a different impression i have the convenant in the original arabic with a translation that i ve verified with arabic speakers the document is rife with calls to kill jews and spread islam and so forth adam schwartz
talk.politics.mideast	re rejoinder questions to israelis in a previous article cpr igc apc org center for policy research says today finally if israel wants peace why can t it declare what it considers its legitimate and secure borders which might be a base for negotiations having all the above facts in mind one cannot blame arab countries to fear israeli expansionism as a number of wars have proved oh yeah israel was really ready to expand its borders on the holiest day of the year yom kippur when the arabs attacked in oh wait you chose to omit that war perhaps because it supports the exact opposite to the point you are trying to make i don t think that it s because it was the war that hit israel the hardest also in it was egypt not israel who kicked out the un force in it was the arabs who refused to accept the existance of israel based on the borders set by the united nations in egypt closed off the red sea to israeli shipping a clear antagonistic act and in the attack was a response to years of constant shelling by terrorist organizations from the golan heights children were being murdered all the time by terrorists and israel finally retaliated nowhere do i see a war that israel started so that the borders could be expanded steve internet aa freenet carleton ca fidonet mossad qube ocunix on ca my opinions are not associated with anything including my head
talk.politics.mideast	re rejoinder questions to israelis in a previous article cpr igc apc org center for policy research says your answer to the question concerning rights to return conflicts with what i was told namely that hundreds of thousands of non jews who left for some reason or other the area under israel control during the war of were prevented from returning for the sole reason they were not jews jews who also left for example to europe to avoid the clashes were allowed to return how can you justify such discrimination if this is true is the mere fact of a person leaving area of combat to seek refuge somewhere else a reason for stripping him of his right to live in his homeland you are conveniently ommitting the fact that the arab governments told the arab citizens of israel to leave israel join with the arab armies so that after what they felt like an assured victory occured these arabs could return to their former homes reclaim them as well as anything else they wanted that belonged to jews when the arabs lost israel was left with a bunch of people who has just tried to kill them who now wanted back into the country as citizens what would you have done let them in so they could kill jews israel sees those arabs who stayed as citizens because they were loyal to israel during the war and didn t leave of course some arabs could have left to avoid the fighting but distinguishing between the two is impossible therefore a decision was made based on secuturity of the country you maintain that there are some israeli arabs living in israeli kibbutzim i wonder how many and where there is very little evidence available about that as much as i know many arabs are working for kibbutzim even for many years but are not accepted as members could it be that kibbutzim do not want arabs no kibbutz that i have ever visited has any employees unless they had to hire some people for the restaurants hotels etc if there weren t enough people on the kibbutz to do them in such cases they are paid properly if a kibbutz turns away an arab i have never seen or heard of this but it reflects only on the membership comittee of that kibbutz not the whole kibbutz movement to keep it what way i am certain that if only religious communities in the u s would be asked they would gladly abolish civil marriage so that people would depend upon rabbis and priests to officiate marriages but israel has always been ruled by a secular majority your answer is not satisfactory this just shows how ignorant you are of israeli politics although the major parties in israel aren t religious however not totally secular due to the format of the government coalition the religious parties have always had a lot of pull since they were needed to form a majority coalition in fact from what i heard the present government is the least influenced by the religious parties in the existance of israel israel cannot be called a secular state for instace haifa is the only city in the country except for maybe some arab cities where buses run on the jewish sabbath there are many other examples of religion in israel marriages in israel are not contolled by the state but by rabbis and priests obviously your disbelief of this fact sheds some light of your ignorance of the country you claim to know so much about steve internet aa freenet carleton ca fidonet mossad qube ocunix on ca my opinions are not associated with anything including my head
talk.politics.mideast	rejoinder questions to israelis from center for policy research cpr subject rejoinder questions to israelis to shaig think com subject ten questions to israelis dear shai your answers to my questions are unsatisfactory in the answer to my first question concerning the nonexistence of israeli nationality your answer conflicts with information i have received from other quarters according to which there are two distinct categories of classifying israelis citizenship ezrahut and nationality le um the former is used on passports etc and the later for daily identification in israeli society i am told that people in israel have to carry their id cards at all times and present them at many public places almost every day these id cards make clear who the holder is a jew or an arab you maintain that this mainly because of religious services provided but do you really believe that this is the reason could you provide evidence that this is the case and that it serves no other purpose in the answer to my second questions concerning the fact that israel has no fixed borders you state that israel s borders were shaped and reshaped by both war and peace according to what i read the first zionists in the beginning of the century had plans for the jewish state to extend into what is lebanon and into transjordan jordan i also read that it was the express wish of ben gurion to not declare israel s borders when israel was established as this might restrict israel s opportunities for later expansion israel often claims it right of existence on the fact that jews lived there years ago or that god promised the land to them but according to biblical sources the area god promised would extend all the way to iraq and what were the borders in biblical times which israel considers proper to use today finally if israel wants peace why can t it declare what it considers its legitimate and secure borders which might be a base for negotiations having all the above facts in mind one cannot blame arab countries to fear israeli expansionism as a number of wars have proved your answer to my third question is typical of a stalinist public official i don t think your answer is honest you refer me to vanunu s revelations about israel s nuclear arsenal without evaluating the truthfullness of his revelations now if he said the truth then why should he been punished and if he lied why should he be punished i would appreciate more honesty somebody provided an answer to the fourth question concerning hidden prisoners in israeli prisons he posted an article from ma ariv documenting such cases it seems that such prisoners do exist in israel what do you think about that you imply that my questions show bias and are formulated in such a way to cast aspersions upon israel such terms have often been used by the soviet union against dissidents they call the soviet union into disrepute if my questions are not disturbing they would not call forth such hysterical answers my questions are clearly provocative but they are meant to seek facts i would be very happy if you could convince me that what i am told about israel were just fabrications but alas you have failed to do so i suspect that you fear the truth and an open and honest discussion this is a sign of weakness not of strength i hope you will muster the courage to seek the full truth
talk.politics.mideast	re rejoinder questions to israelis from center for policy research cpr subject rejoinder questions to israelis dear josh i appreciate the fact that you sought to answer my questions having said that i am not totally happy with your answers you did not fully answer my question whether israeli id cards identify the holders as jews or arabs you imply that u s citizens must identify themselves by race is that true or are just trying to mislead the reader do you know of any democratic country where people are asked to reveal their ethnical or religious identity to any public official who so requests the answer to the second question is evasive there are all kinds of maps issued they are not equivalent to state policy you did not respond to my question your answer to the third question israeli nuclear arsenal is interesting you say that israeli probably stocks nuclear weapons what evidence have you for maintaining that my fourth question was answered by someone else who posted a ma ariv article documenting such cases i did not ask about cases like vanunu everybody knew he was tried and imprisoned but about those about whom nobody even knows that they have been tried and imprisoned thanks for clarifying the question concerning the legal status of the inhabitants of the occupied territories from it i understand that there are two sets of laws in these ares one for the occupier civil law and one for the occupied military law the law allows israeli arabs to settle in hebron it seems if so why doesn t it allow hebron arabs to settle in israel your answer to the question concerning rights to return conflicts with what i was told namely that hundreds of thousands of non jews who left for some reason or other the area under israel control during the war of were prevented from returning for the sole reason they were not jews jews who also left for example to europe to avoid the clashes were allowed to return how can you justify such discrimination if this is true is the mere fact of a person leaving area of combat to seek refuge somewhere else a reason for stripping him of his right to live in his homeland somebody answered my question regarding y rabin signing an order for ethnical cleansing in according to that information y rabin signed the order for the expulsion of all inhabitants of lydda and ramleh about people these expulsions were helped by massacres of civilians and other atrocities which remind bosnia i was referred to a book by israeli journalist benny goodman called the origin of the palestinian refugee problem published by cambridge university press is this book available in your library you maintain that there are some israeli arabs living in israeli kibbutzim i wonder how many and where there is very little evidence available about that as much as i know many arabs are working for kibbutzim even for many years but are not accepted as members could it be that kibbutzim do not want arabs my question about the lack of civil marriage in israel was whether it is true that the israeli legislator intended to discourage intermarriage you did not address this question but evaded it by saying that the entire religious establishment wants to keep it what way i am certain that if only religious communities in the u s would be asked they would gladly abolish civil marriage so that people would depend upon rabbis and priests to officiate marriages but israel has always been ruled by a secular majority your answer is not satisfactory i would be glad to have some more input from you after these comments elias
talk.politics.mideast	re israel s expansion ii waldo cybernet cse fau edu writes ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes waldo cybernet cse fau edu writes ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes first of all i never said the holocaust i said before the holocaust i m not ignorant of the holocaust and know more about nazi germany than most people maybe including you uh oh the first sign of an argument without merit the stating of one s qualifications in an area if you know something about nazi germany show it if you don t shut up simple as that i don t think the suffering of some jews during wwii justifies the crimes commited by the israeli government any attempt to call civil liberterians like myself anti semetic is not appreciated all jews suffered during wwii not just our beloved who perished or were tortured we all suffered second the name calling was directed against you not civil libertarians in general your name dropping of a fancy sounding political term is yet another attempt to cite qualifications in order to obfuscate your glaring unpreparedness for this argument go back to the minors junior all humans suffered emotionally some jews and many others suffered physically it is sad that people like you are so blinded by emotions that they can t see the facts thanks for calling me names it only assures me of what kind of ignorant people i am dealing with i included your letter since i thought it demonstrated my point more than anything i could write when you re willing to actually support something you say with fact or argument rather than covering up your own inadequacies with feigned offense let me know otherwise back to your own league son i have never seen such immaturity among semitophiles this andi beyer character shows no signs of anti semitism yet because he deviates from the norm of accepted opinion you attack him why did not anyone venture to answer andi s question in an intelligent and unoffending manner the only ones guilty here of not backing up there viewpoints with fact are the israelophiles now will we please start having some intelligent conversation you all are an insult to you race assuming you are also semitic now i have a comment concerning israeli terrorism during the s and s the hirgun and other branch off militant groups did fight the british do get them out of palestine yet i fail to see how this israeli form of terrorism was better than the terrorism practiced now by the arabs these jewish terrorist groups killed innocent british soldiers but not only thta also killed many jews who were in favor of a compromise with the palestinians in addition they massacred an entire palestinian village in contributing to the exodus of the frightened palestinians who feared their very lives i mention this not because i m anti semitic i m part jewish but because this self righteousness on the part of the israelites pisses me off so i m not as critical of the palestinians because they were indeed screwed over by the jews it s a damn shame that the palestinians had to pay for german and european anti semitism pissed off at immature closeminded self righteous semites
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli terrorism eshneken ux cso uiuc edu writes ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes i think the israeli press might be a tad bit biased in reporting the events i doubt the propaganda machine of goering reported accurately on what was happening in germany it is interesting that you are basing the truth on israeli propaganda if you consider israeli reporting of events in israel to be propoganda then consider the washington post s handling of american events to be propoganda too what makes the israeli press inherently biased in your opinion i wouldn t compare it to nazi propoganda either unless you want to provide some evidence of israeli inaccuracies or parallels to nazism i suggest you keep your mouth shut i m sick and tired of all you anti semites comparing israel to the nazis and yes in my opinion if you compare israel to the nazis you are an anti semite because you know damn well it isn t true and you are just trying to discredit israel ed you know ed you re right andi shouldn t be comparing israel to the nazis the israelis are much worse than the nazis ever were anyway the nazis did a lot of good for germany and they would have succeeded if it weren t for the damn jews the holocaust never happened anyway ample evidence given by george schafer at harvard dept of history and even by randolph higgins at nyu have shown that the holocaust was just a semitic conspiracy created to obtain sympathy to piush for the creation of israel
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli terrorism in a previous article adam endor uucp adam shostack says in article bdad news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes in article amoss apr shuldig cs huji ac il amoss shuldig cs huji ac il amos shapira writes cy cleveland freenet edu anas omran writes eh could you please give me details about an event where a neutral observer was killed by purpose by an israeli soldier there are many cases but i do not remeber names the isralis shot and killed a un observer in gaza in the first half of intifada i believe that most of the world has seen pictures of israeli soldiers who were breaking the cameras of the reporters kicking reporters out confiscating cassettes and showing reporters militery orders preventing them from going to hot areas to pick pictures and make reports
talk.politics.mideast	re rejoinder questions to israelis although i realize that principle is not one of your strongest points i would still like to know why do do not ask any question of this sort about the arab countries if you want to continue this think tank charade of yours your fixation on israel must stop you might have to start asking the same sort of questions of arab countries as well you realize it would not work as the arab countries treatment of jews over the last several decades is so bad that your fixation on israel would begin to look like the biased attack that it is everyone in this group recognizes that your stupid center for policy research is nothing more than a fancy name for some bigot who hates israel why don t you try being honest about your hatred of israel i have heard that your family once lived in israel but the members of your family could not cut the competition there is this true about your family is this true about you is this actually not about israel but is really a personal vendetta why are you not the least bit objective about israel do you think that the name of your phony baloney center hides your bias in the least get a clue mr davidsson haven t you realized yet that when you post such stupidity in this group you are going to incur answers from people who are armed with the truth haven t you realized that a piece of selective data here and a piece there does not make up a truth haven t you realized that you are in over your head the people who read this group are not as stupid as you would hope or need them to be this is not the place for such pseudo analysis you will be continually ripped to shreds until you start to show some regard for objectivity or you can continue to show what an anti israel zealot you are trying to disguise your bias behind a pompous name like the center for policy research you ought to know that you are a laughing stock your center is considered a joke and until you either go away or make at least some attempt to be objective you will have a place of honor among the clowns bigots and idiots of usenet
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli terrorism backon vms huji ac il writes in article rd eo a usenet ins cwru edu cy cleveland freenet edu ana anas of course the yahud needed blood for the matza after all passover was last month josh were you in such a hurry we celebrated pesach this month but only with xtian blood muslim blood hasn t been declared kosher le pesach by our hechscher not yet manfredo tichauer m email tichauer valpso hanse de opitzstrasse voice hamburg germany fax
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli terrorism just kidding
talk.politics.mideast	re final solution for gaza in article bdc news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes certainly the israeli had a legitimate worry behind the action they took but isn t that action a little draconian what alternative would you suggest be taken to safeguard the lives of israeli citizens adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
talk.politics.mideast	re israel s expansion ii ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes i m not ignorant of the holocaust and know more about nazi germany than most people maybe including you you really belong to the of ignorants in usa who don t know what the holocaust shoa should be the real word was first you write in message id apr virginia edu date sat apr gmt i think the israeli press might be a tad bit biased in reporting the events i doubt the propaganda machine of goering and later as somebody informed you about your gross mistake you write in message id apr virginia edu date sun apr gmt first let me correct myself in that it was goerbels and not goering airforce who ran the nazi propaganda machine instead of joseph goebbels and you dare to say that you know more about nazi germany than most people maybe including us i m sure you learned the history of nazi germany and austria from your family what i resent is ignorant statements that call people names when they disagree with your position opposing the atrocities commited by the israeli governement hardly qualifies as anti semitism if you think name calling is a valid form of argument in intellectual circles you need to get out more often trying to make comparisons between israels politics and nazi german austrian politics shows only your degree of ignorance high intellect low humanity none and antisemitism average i respect anybody who dissagrees with me as long as he respects me and discusses in a civilized manner i would never say that anybody that critizises israel and or its politics is an antisemite except he uses antisemitic vocabulary terminology demagogy israel is not a perfect country and its politicians also commits errors even some of them are corrupt like politicians in any other country but they carry a huge burden to care for the safety of all its citizens and that is really not an easy task in a country that is surrounded by enemies who only expect that israel commits the one big error and wipe the country and its jewish citizens plus the so called collaborators arabs that wanted to live in peace with their jewish neighbours of the map as i said israel is not a perfect country but it is the only democracy in the whole middle east and the only country in the world where jews from everywhere can have a refuge in case of persecutions in the countries they are living our long history has taught us that we cannot rely on non jewish nations and its governments as soon as there are more or les big social economical political problems in any country the first ones that pay for the broken glasses are the jews and later the other minorities of the country i don t think the suffering of some jews during wwii justifies the crimes commited by the israeli government any attempt to call civil liberterians like myself anti semetic is not appreciated this is really outrageous murdered jews besides the thousands who survived the shoa in some way or another and the rest of the living ones mourning for all of them i don t know what you call a civil libertarian never heard about them but i know only one thing if all of them think like you do it then civil libertarians is a new denomination for antisemites may other civil libertarians come to word to this group so that we can learn if a beyer and me are right that civil libertarians are antisemites or that i m wrong and he is missusing that word btw i couldn t care less for what andi beyer appreciates manfredo tichauer m email tichauer valpso hanse de opitzstrasse voice hamburg germany fax
talk.politics.mideast	re the u s holocaust memorial museum a costly and dangerous mistake in article smith apr minerva harvard edu smith minerva harvard edu steven smith writes dgannon techbook techbook com dan gannon writes the u s holocaust memorial museum a costly and dangerous mistake by theodore j o keefe holocaust revisionism theodore j o keefe is an editor with the institute for historical review educated at harvard university according to the harvard alumni directory mr o keefe failed to graduate you may decide for yourselves if he was indeed educated anywhere steven smith is any education a prerequisite for employment at ihr is it true that ihr really stands for institution of hysterical reviews curious minds would like to know hap omnia extares
talk.politics.mideast	re rejoinder questions to israelis in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes from center for policy research cpr subject rejoinder questions to israelis to shaig think com subject ten questions to israelis dear shai in the answer to my first question concerning the nonexistence of israeli nationality your answer conflicts with information i have received from other quarters according to which there are two distinct categories of classifying israelis citizenship ezrahut and nationality le um the former is used on passports etc and the later for daily identification in israeli society i am told that people in israel have to carry their id cards at all times and present them at many public places almost every day these id cards make clear who the holder is a jew or an arab you maintain that this mainly because of religious services provided but do you really believe that this is the reason could you provide evidence that this is the case and that it serves no other purpose a number of points you are making assumptions about the manner in which the cards are used true by law all residents citizens and tourists must carry a form of identification with them for citizens the standard id is the id card the purpose this serves on a daily basis wherein they are presented at public places is for the purpose of identifying the bearer this takes place in banks cashing checks post offices registered mail and such etc quite frankly it was rare that i ever had to present my id card for such activities more than once per week there is no law or requirement that forces people to wave their id cards in public furthermore none of the services i outlined discriminate against the bearer in any manner by having access to this information the only case that i can think of in which the le um field might be taken into account is during interaction with the police based upon the scenario in general though arab citizens are clearly recognizable as are non arabs your argument therefore becomes moot unless you can provide an example of how this field is being used to discriminate against them officially in the answer to my second questions concerning the fact that israel has no fixed borders you state that israel s borders were shaped and reshaped by both war and peace according to what i read the first zionists in the beginning of the century had plans for the jewish state to extend into what is lebanon and into transjordan jordan i also read that it was the express wish of ben gurion to not declare israel s borders when israel was established as this might restrict israel s opportunities for later expansion israel often claims it right of existence on the fact that jews lived there years ago or that god promised the land to them but according to biblical sources the area god promised would extend all the way to iraq and what were the borders in biblical times which israel considers proper to use today finally if israel wants peace why can t it declare what it considers its legitimate and secure borders which might be a base for negotiations having all the above facts in mind one cannot blame arab countries to fear israeli expansionism as a number of wars have proved i take issue with your assertions i think that arab countries do know that they have nothing to fear from israeli expansionism militarily israel is not capable of holding onto large tracts of land under occupation to a hostile armed and insurgent population for a sustained period of time as is the intifada is heavily taxing the israeli economy proof of this can be seen in the israeli withdrawal from lebanon israeli troops pulled back from the awali and later from the litani in order to control the minimal strip needed to keep towns out of range of katyusha missile fire public opinion in israel has turned towards settling the intifada via territorial concessions the israel public is sufferring from battle fatigue of sorts and the gov t is aware of it with regards to borders let me state the following i may not agree with the manner in which negotiations are being held however the crux of the matter is that everyone either makes or refrains from stating a starting position the arab parties have called for total withdrawal and a return to pre borders if israel were to state large borders the negotiations might never get under way if israel were to state smaller borders then the arab countries might try and force even smaller borders during the negotiations i think that leaving the matter to be settled by negotiations and peace treaties is infinitely more realistic and sensible your answer to my third question is typical of a stalinist public official i don t think your answer is honest you refer me to vanunu s revelations about israel s nuclear arsenal without evaluating the truthfullness of his revelations now if he said the truth then why should he been punished and if he lied why should he be punished i would appreciate more honesty your statement is typical of the simple minded naivety of a center for policy research whether or not all of vanunu s revelations were true has no bearing on the fact that some were for disclosing state secrets after having signed contracts and forms with the understanding that said secrets are not to be made public one should be punished as to which were and which weren t i am under no moral obligation to disclose that quite the reverse in fact he was taken to court tried and found guilty you may take issue with a number of things but clearly you have no understanding of the concept of secrets of state something which every democratic govt has somebody provided an answer to the fourth question concerning hidden prisoners in israeli prisons he posted an article from ma ariv documenting such cases it seems that such prisoners do exist in israel what do you think about that i noticed that he was documenting the fact that such prisoners could exist more than he documented the fact that they do exist the clu noted which you evidently did not pay attention to that they know of no such reports or cases i am sorry to tell you but in a country of mill as tightly knit as israel even if the matter of the arrest was not made public within a relatively short time frame most people would know about it my own feelings are that the matter of the arrest should be made public unless a court order is issued allowing a delay of x hours this would be granted only if a judge could be convinced that an announcement would cause irreparable harm to the ongoing investigation you imply that my questions show bias and are formulated in such a way to cast aspersions upon israel such terms have often been used by the soviet union against dissidents they call the soviet union into disrepute if my questions are not disturbing they would not call forth such hysterical answers my questions are clearly provocative but they are meant to seek facts i would be very happy if you could convince me that what i am told about israel were just fabrications but alas you have failed to do so i suspect that you fear the truth and an open and honest discussion this is a sign of weakness not of strength well i am sorry to say that your questions are slanted such questions are often termed tabloid journalism and are not disturbing because they avoid any attempt at objectivity such questions were often used during the mccarthy era as a basis for the witch hunts that took place then to use your own example these questions might have been lifted from the format used by stalinist prosecutors that were looking for small bits of evidence that they could distort and portray as a larger and dirtier picture my answers were not any more hysterical than the questions themselves the problem is not that the q s were provocative it was that they were selective in their fact seeking you fall into the same category of those who seek yes no answers when the real answer is of sorts i suspect that as long as the answers to these questions is not an unequivocal no you would remain unsatified and choose to interprete them as you see fit a sign of strength is the ability to look you remind me of those mistaken environmentalists who once advocated culling wolves because of the cruelty to deer only to find that they had broken the food chain and wreaked havoc upon the very environment they sought to protect the color blindness you exhibit is a true sign of weakness i hope you will muster the courage to seek the full truth ditto shai guday stealth bombers os software engineer thinking machines corp the winged ninja of the skies cambridge ma
talk.politics.mideast	the wholesale extermination of the muslim population by the armenians in article c yjii e b blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee writes but some of this is verifiable information for instance the person who knows about the buggy product may be able to tell you how to reproduce the bug on your own but still fears retribution if it were to be known that he was the one who told the public how to do so typical arromdian of the asala sdpa arf terrorism and revisionism triangle well does it change the fact that during the period of to the armenian government ordered incited assisted and participated in the genocide of million muslim people because of race religion and national origin armenians did slaughter the entire muslim population of van armenians did slaughter of muslim population of bitlis armenians did slaughter of muslim population of erzurum armenians did slaughter of muslim population of diyarbakir armenians did slaughter of muslim population of mamuretulaziz armenians did slaughter of muslim population of sivas armenians did slaughter the entire muslim population of the x soviet armenia mccarthy j muslims and minorities the population of ottoman anatolia and the end of the empire new york university press new york pp karpat k ottoman population the university of wisconsin press hovannisian r g armenia on the road to independence university of california press berkeley and los angeles pp shaw s j on armenian collaboration with invading russian armies in history of the ottoman empire and modern turkey volume ii reform revolution republic the rise of modern turkey london cambridge university press pp gochnak armenian newspaper published in the united states may source adventures in the near east by a rawlinson jonathan cape bedford square london first published pages memoirs of a british officer who witnessed the armenian genocide of million muslim people p first paragraph in those moslem villages in the plain below which had been searched for arms by the armenians everything had been taken under the cloak of such search and not only had many moslems been killed but horrible tortures had been inflicted in the endeavour to obtain information as to where valuables had been hidden of which the armenians were aware of the existence although they had been unable to find them p first paragraph the arrival of this british brigade was followed by the announcement that kars province had been allotted by the supreme council of the allies to the armenians and that announcement having been made the british troops were then completely withdrawn and armenian occupation commenced hence all the trouble for the armenians at once commenced the wholesale robbery and persecution of the muslem population on the pretext that it was necessary forcibly to deprive them of their arms in the portion of the province which lies in the plains they were able to carry out their purpose and the manner in which this was done will be referred to in due course serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re minority abuses in greece in article c b g m panix com mpoly panix com michael s polymenakos writes well zumabot claims just the opposite that greeks are not allowing turks to exit the country now explain this the number of turks in thrace has steadily risen from in to while the greeks of dr goebels thought that a lie repeated enough times could finally be believed i have been observing that poly has been practicing goebels rule quite loyally poly s audience is mostly made of greeks who are not allowed to listen to turkish news however in today s informed world greek propagandists can only fool themselves for instance those who lived in will remember the tv news they watched and the newspapers they read and the younger generation can read the american newspapers of july and august to find out what really happened there are in turkiye the greek hospital the greek girls lycee alumni association the principo islands greek benevolent society the greek medical foundation the principo greek orphanage foundation the yovakimion greek girls lycee foundation and the fener greek men s lycee foundation as for greece the longstanding use of the adjective turkish in titles and on signboards is prohibited the greek courts have ordered the closure of the turkish teachers association the komotini turkish youth association and the ksanti turkish association on grounds that there are no turks in western thrace such community associations had been active until but they were first told to remove the word turkish on their buildings and on their official papers and then eventually close down this is also the final verdict november of the greek high court in the city of komotini a former greek parliamentarian of turkish parentage was sentenced recently to months of imprisonment with no right to appeal just for saying outloud that he was of turkish descent this duly elected ethnic turkish official was also deprived of his political rights for a period of three years each one of these barbaric acts seems to be none other than a vehicle used by the greek governments to cover up their inferiority complex they display vis a vis the people of turkiye the agreement on the exchange of minorities uses the term turks which demonstrates what is actually meant by the previous reference to muslims the fact that the greek governments also mention the existence of a few thousand non turkish muslims does not change the essential reality that there lives in western thrace a much bigger turkish minority the pomaks are also a muslim people whom all the three nations bulgarians turks and greeks consider as part of themselves do you know how the muslim turkish minority was organized according to the agreements poor poly it also proves that the turkish people are trapped in greece and the greek people are free to settle anywhere in the world the greek authorities deny even the existence of a turkish minority they pursue the same denial in connection with the macedonians of greece talk about oppression in addition in the democratic greek parliament passed law no virtually taking over the administration of the vakiflar and other charitable trusts they have ceased to be self supporting religious and cultural entities talk about fascism the greek governments are attempting to appoint the muftus irrespective of the will of the turkish minority as state official although the orthodox church has full authority in similar matters in greece the muslim turkish minority will have no say in electing its religious leaders talk about democracy the government of greece has recently destroyed an islamic convention in komotini such destruction which reflects an attitude against the muslim turkish cultural heritage is a violation of the lausanne convention as well as the so called greek constitution which is supposed to guarantee the protection of historical monuments the government of greece on the other hand is building new churches in remote villages as a complementary step toward hellenizing the region and you pondered sidiropoulos the president of the macedonian human rights committee became the latest victim of a tactic long used by the greeks to silence critics of policies of forced assimilation of the macedonian minority a forestry official by occupation sidiropoulos has been sent to internal exile on the island of kefalonia hundreds of kilometers away from his native florina his employer the florina city council asked him to depart in hours the greek authorities are trying to punish him for his involvement in copenhagen he returned to florina by his own choice and remains without a job helsinki watch a well known human rights group had been investigating the plight of the turkish minority in greece in august their findings were published in a report titled destroying ethnic identity turks of greece the report confirmed gross violations of the human rights of the turkish minority by the greek authorities it says for instance the greek government recently destroyed an islamic convent in komotini such destruction which reflects an attitude against the muslim turkish cultural heritage is a violation of the lausanne convention the turkish cemeteries in the village of vafeika and in pinarlik were attacked and tombstones were broken the cemetery in karotas was razed by bulldozers shall i go on why not the people of turkiye are not going to take human rights lessons from the greek government the discussion of human rights violations in greece does not stop at the greek frontier in several following articles i shall dwell on and expose the greek treatment of turks in western thrace and the aegean macedonians it has been reported that the greek cypriot administration has an intense desire for arms and that greece has made plans to supply it with the tanks and armored vehicles it has to destroy in accordance with the agreement reached on conventional arms reductions in europe meanwhile greek and greek cypriot officials are reported to have planned to take ostentatious measures aimed at camouflaging the transfer of these tanks and armored vehicles to southern cyprus a process that will conflict with the spirit of the agreement on conventional arms reduction in europe an acceptable method may certainly be found when there is a will but we know of various kinds of violent behaviors ranging from physical attacks to the burning of buildings the rugs at the amfia village mosque were dragged out to the front of the building and burnt there shots were fired on the mosque in the village of aryana now wait there is more greek atrocities in the vilayet of smyrna may to july inedited documents and evidence of english and french officers published by the permanent bureau of the turkish congress at lausanne lausanne imprimerie petter giesser held caroline pages the train going from denizli to smyrna was stopped at ephesus and the turkish travellers men and women who were in it ordered to descend and there in the open street under the eyes of their husbands fathers and brothers the women without distinction of age were violated and then all the travellers were massacred amongst the latter the lieutenant salih effendi a native of tripoli and a captain whose name is not known and to whom the hellenic authorities had given safe conduct were killed with specially atrocious tortures before the battle the wife of the lawyer enver bey coming from her garden was maltreated by greek soldiers she was even stript of her garments and her servant assie was violated the two tax gatherers mustapha and ali effendi were killed in the following manner their arms were bound behind their backs with wire and their heads were battered and burst open with blows from the butt end of a gun during the firing of the town eleven children six little girls and five boys fleeing from the flames were stopped by greek soldiers in the ramazan pacha quarter and thrown into a burning jewish house near bridge where they were burnt alive this fact is confirmed on oath by the retired commandant hussein hussni effendi who saw it the clock maker ahmed effendi and his son sadi were arrested and dragged out of their shop the son had his eyes put out and was then killed in the court of the greek church but ahmed effendi has been no more heard of at the market during the fire two unknown people were wounded by bayonets then bound together thrown into the fire and burnt alive the greeks killed also many jews these are the names of some moussa malki shoemaker killed bohor levy tailor killed bohor israel cobbler killed isaac calvo shoemaker killed david aroguete killed moussa lerosse killed gioia katan killed meryem malki killed soultan gharib killed isaac sabah wounded moche fahmi wounded david sabah wounded moise bensignor killed sarah bendi killed jacob jaffe wounded aslan halegna wounded serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	nazi armenians were of service to germans in arab countries as well in article apr colorado edu perlman qso colorado edu eric s perlman writes this has been discussed before by several people on this net the statement is attributable either to hajj amin al husseini former grand mufti of jerusalem and the leader of the palestinian death squads during the war or to one of his chief henchmen let us not forget the nazi armenians nazi armenians were of service to germans in arab countries as well as uzun put it one well known case which received a lot of media coverage involved two nazi armenian agents which were dropped over syria by italian war planes the mission of the agents was to mingle among the armenian population in syria and to acquire relevant information for the german wehrmacht on the allied forces in the area nazi armenians also helped german propaganda efforts in arab countries designed to promote pro nazi sentiments among the french and british ruled arab populations beirut had traditionally been strong hold of the nazi armenians and until very recently it was the center of international armenian terrorism in russia general dro the butcher the architect of the turkish genocide in wwi was working closely with the german secret service he entered the war zone with his own men and acquired important intelligence about the soviets his experience with the turkish genocide in x soviet armenia made him an invaluable source for the germans meyer berkian ibid p meyer berkian ibid p patrick von zur muehlen ibid p serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	million muslims perished of butchery at the hands of armenians in article apr husc harvard edu verbit brauer harvard edu mikhail s verbitsky writes actually jarmo is a permanent resident of my killfile anyone care to speculate on this i ll let the rest of the net judge this on its own merits between and million turks perished of butchery at the hands of armenians the genocide involved not only the killing of innocents but their forcible deportation from the russian armenia they were persecuted banished and slaughtered while much of ottoman army was engaged in world war i the genocide treaty defines genocide as acting with a specific intent to destroy in whole or in substantial part a national ethnic racial or religious group history shows that the x soviet armenian government intended to eradicate the muslim population million turks and kurds were exterminated by the armenians international diplomats in ottoman empire at the time including u s ambassador bristol denounced the x soviet armenian government s policy as a massacre of the kurds turks and tartars the blood thirsty leaders of the x soviet armenian government at the time personally involved in the extermination of the muslims the turkish genocide museums in turkiye honor those who died during the turkish massacres perpetrated by the armenians the eyewitness accounts and the historical documents established beyond any doubt that the massacres against the muslim people during the war were planned and premeditated the aim of the policy was clearly the extermination of all turks in x soviet armenian territories the muslims of van bitlis mus erzurum and erzincan districts and their wives and children have been taken to the mountains and killed the massacres in trabzon tercan yozgat and adana were organized and perpetrated by the blood thirsty leaders of the x soviet armenian government the principal organizers of the slaughter of innocent muslims were dro antranik armen garo hamarosp daro pastirmadjian keri karakin haig pajise liantz and silikian source bristol papers general correspondence container bristol to bradley letter of september i have it from absolute first hand information that the armenians in the caucasus attacked tartar turkish villages that are utterly defenseless and bombarded these villages with artillery and they murder the inhabitants pillage the village and often burn the village sources the ottoman state the ministry of war islam ahalinin ducar olduklari mezalim hakkinda vesaike mustenid malumat istanbul the french version documents relatifs aux atrocites commises par les armeniens sur la population musulmane istanbul in the latin script h k turkozu ed osmanli ve sovyet belgeleriyle ermeni mezalimi ankara in addition z basar ed ermenilerden gorduklerimiz ankara and edited by the same author ermeniler hakkinda makaleler derlemeler ankara askeri tarih belgeleri vol december document numbered askeri tarih belgeleri vol december document numbered those who were capable of fighting were taken away at the very beginning with the excuse of forced labor in road construction they were taken in the direction of sarikamis and annihilated when the russian army withdrew a part of the remaining people was destroyed in armenian massacres and cruelties they were thrown into wells they were locked in houses and burned down they were killed with bayonets and swords in places selected as butchering spots their bellies were torn open their lungs were pulled out and girls and women were hanged by their hair after being subjected to every conceivable abominable act a very small part of the people who were spared these abominations far worse than the cruelty of the inquisition resembled living dead and were suffering from temporary insanity because of the dire poverty they had lived in and because of the frightful experiences they had been subjected to including women and children such persons discovered so far do not exceed one thousand five hundred in erzincan and thirty thousand in erzurum all the fields in erzincan and erzurum are untilled everything that the people had has been taken away from them and we found them in a destitute situation at the present time the people are subsisting on some food they obtained impelled by starvation from russian storages left behind after their occupation of this area serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	the justice for the victims of the armenian barbarism and fascism in article licre ludwig edu au theo licre ludwig edu au writes first of all it is called istanbul let me even spell it for you i s t a n b u l secondly the turks are also asking for their money for their destroyed and confiscated properties in greece and former yugoslavia bosnia and serbia classic it is called the justice we also demand that the x soviet armenian government admit its responsibility for the turkish and kurdish genocide render reparations to the muslim people and return the land to its rightful owners the recognition of the genocide has become an issue which cannot be delayed further and it is imperative that artificial obstacles created for political manipulations be removed now if we re talking about rent and vandalism let s make it fair then greece pays back it s dues and turkey pays for years rent and destruction of classical architecture deal democracy in action are you the truelove or falselove of arromdian of the asala sdpa arf terrorism and revisionism triangle if turks had behaved like christians to use force to convert to islam the nations which they brought under their power to which no one could have opposed today there would be no eastern problem but turks did not do so they obeyed the word of the koran to permit everybody to worship in their own way centuries before frederick the great pronounced his famous dictum thus in an age when the christian europe itself shed christian blood and when people in europe enjoyed inflicting inhuman tortures upon those whose beliefs differed from theirs the ottoman empire became the sole country where the inquisition did not exist where deaths at the stake were unheard of and where accusations of witchcraft were not made and the barbarian turkey was the only country where the jews persecuted and chased away everywhere by the christians could find asylum these facts demonstrate that muslim countries provided spiritually far better living conditions than christian countries the turks who are a conquering nation did not turkify the nations that came under their rule instead they respected their religions and traditions it was a stroke of luck for romania to live under turkish rule instead of russian or austrian rule because otherwise there would not have been a romanian nation today popescu ciocanel turks rule over people under their administration only externally without interfering with their internal structures on account of this the autonomy of minorities in turkey is better and more complete than any in the most advanced european countries human beings hate each other on account of religious differences this flaw is older than islam and christianity but there has never been any examples of this adjuration in turkey because turks never oppress anybody on account of his religion if enmity on the basis of religion had been such a case of simple contempt among us too or if it did not keep translating itself into action many nations in our europe would probably have considered themselves happy a de mortraye turkey never became a scene for religious terror or for the cruelty of the inquisition on the contrary it served as an asylum for the unfortunate victims of christian fanaticism if you look into history you will see that in the fifteenth century thousands of jews who were expelled from spain and portugal found such a good asylum in turkey that their descendants have been living there very calmly all through these approximately three hundred years and are only forced to defend themselves in some countries against the cruelty of christians especially that of the orthodoxes no jew is able to appear in public during easter celebrations in athens even today in turkey however if the israelites are insulted by the greek and armenian communities local courts immediately take them under their protection in that vast and calm country of the sultan all religions and nations are living together peacefully although the mosque is superior to the church and the synagogue it does not replace them because of this the catholic sect is more free in istanbul and smyrna compared with paris and lyon in addition to the fact that no law in turkey prohibits the open air ceremonies of this sect neither does any law imprison its cross in the church while the dead are being taken to the graves a long line of priests bear processional candles and chant catholic hymns when all the priests in all the churches in the galata and beyoglu districts go into the streets and form clerical processions during the eucharist celebrations chanting hymns and bearing their crosses and religious banners a detachment of soldiers escorts them which forces even the turks to stand in respect around the group of priests a ubicini ah djevat yabancilara gore eski turkler rd ed istanbul pp ibid p ibid pp ibid pp serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	and azeri survivors were killed by a shot to the back of the head armenian atrocities moscow ap azerbaijani forces on saturday retook three villages seized by armenians and discovered bodies of executed civilians azerbaijani reports said the azerbaijani fighters found bodies of civilians including those of a child and two elderly women who were shot point blank and survivors were killed by a shot to the back of the head said a ministry statement carried by the azerbaijani azerinform and turan news agencies and the itar tass news service everywhere armenian occupants were they left tens of corpses of civilians shot to death point blank and mutilated the serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli terrorism in article rhnb pp usenet ins cwru edu cy cleveland freenet edu anas omran writes in a previous article adam endor uucp adam shostack says in article bdad news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes in article amoss apr shuldig cs huji ac il amoss shuldig cs huji ac il amos shapira writes cy cleveland freenet edu anas omran writes eh could you please give me details about an event where a neutral observer was killed by purpose by an israeli soldier there are many cases but i do not remeber names the isralis shot and killed a un observer in gaza in the first half of intifada not exactly the same but reminiscent of the assassination of count bernadotte who was the un negotiator during the israeli war of independence he was killed by the israelis seems he was being too successful in negotiating a cease fire which would have worked territorially against the nascent israel compared to continued war jim eggertj atc ll mit edu jim eggert
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli terrorism in article apr virginia edu ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes what is a shame is that in austria daily reports of the inhuman acts commited by israeli soldiers it wasn t all that long ago that the acts of israeli soldiers were described as superhuman now they are inhuman did the israelis change so radically so quickly or have reporting attitudes changed and the blessing received from the government makes some of the holocaust guilt go away after all look how the jews are treating other races when they got power when the jews were powerless they did what they could to help others which was obviously quite limited later liberated american jews were on the forefront of the civil rights movement the jewish government of israel rescued jews ranging in skin color from white russian to brown yemenite to black ethiopian please andi tell us how the jews are treating other races when they got power it is unfortunate your ignorance and bias are indeed unfortunate jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli terrorism in article rambk cee usenet ins cwru edu cl cleveland freenet edu hamaza h salah writes ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes andi s posting deleted hamaza s only comment is well said mr beyer andi when you get the full fledged support of hamaza salah you know you re on the wrong track jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	re israel s expansion ii in article apr virginia edu ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes waldo cybernet cse fau edu writes all jews suffered during wwii not just our beloved who perished or were tortured we all suffered all humans suffered emotionally some jews and many others suffered physically i m just waiting for andi to tell us that african americans should start paying compensation to white americans who suffered from being slave owners jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	re h r violations by israel arab st in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes i am born in palestine now israel i have family there the lack of peace and utter injustice in my home country has affected me all my life bullshit you ve been in iceland for the past years you told us so yourself it had something to do with not wanting to suffer the fate of your mother who has lived with jews for a long time or somesuch sounded awful i am concerned by palestine israel because i want peace to come to it peace and justice are you as concerned about peace and justice in palestine jordan israeli trights and palestinian rights are not symmetrical the first party has a state and the other has none the first is an occupier and the second the occupied let s say that israel grants the plo everything they ever asked for that israel goes back to the borders what will the palestinean arabs in tel aviv call themselves the palestineans in west jerusalem in haifa will they still claim to be occupied or do you suggest that israel expell or kill off any remaining arabs much as the arabs did to their jews indeed there is much which is not symmetrical about the conflict in the m e and most of this lack of symmetry does not favor israel elias davidsson iceland jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	re rejoinder questions to israelis in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes from center for policy research cpr subject rejoinder questions to israelis to shaig think com subject ten questions to israelis dear shai your answers to my questions are unsatisfactory so why don t ypu sue him naftaly stramer intergraph electronics internet nstramer dazixco ingr com lookout road suite a voice fax boulder co quality is everybody s job and it s everybody s job to watch all that they can
talk.politics.mideast	accounts of anti armenian human right violations in azerbaijan a accounts of anti armenian human right violations in azerbaijan part a prelude to current events in nagorno karabakh part a of oh yes i just remembered while they were raping me they repeated quite frequently let the armenian women have babies for us muslim babies let them bear azerbaijanis for the struggle against the armenians then they said those muslims can carry on our holy cause heroes they repeated it very often deposition of lyudmila grigorevna m born teacher sumgait secondary school no secretary of the komsomol organization at school no member of the sumgait city komsomol committee office resident at building b apartment microdistrict no sumgait azerbaijan note the events in kafan used as a pretext to attack armenians in azerbaijan are false as verified by independent international human rights organizations dd i m thinking about the price the sumgait armenians paid to be living in armenia now we paid for it in human casualties and crippled fates the price was too great now after the sumgait tragedy we the victims divide our lives into before and after we talk like that that was before the war like the people who went through world war ii and considered it a whole epoch a fate no matter how many years go by no matter how long we live it will never be forgotten on the contrary some of the moments become even sharper in our rage in our sorrow we saw everything differently but now they say that you can see more with distance and we can see those inhuman events with more clarity now we more acutely perceive our losses and everything that happened nineteen eighty eight was a leap year everyone fears a leap year and wants it to pass as quickly as possible yet we never thought that that leap year would be such a black one for every sumgait armenian those who lost someone and those who didn t that second to last day of winter was ordinary for our family although you could already smell danger in the air but we didn t think that the danger was near and possible so we didn t take any steps to save ourselves at least as my parents say at least we should have done something to save the children my parents themselves are not that old and years but then they thought that they had already lived enough and did everything they could to save us in our apartment the tragedy started on february around five in the afternoon i call it a tragedy and i repeat it was a tragedy even though all our family survived when i recall how they broke down our door my skin crawls even now among armenians among people who wish me only well i feel like it s all starting over again i remember how that mob broke into our apartment my parents were standing in the hall my father had an axe in his hands and had immediately locked both of the doors our door was rarely locked since friends and neighbors often dropped by we re known as a hospitable family and we just never really thought about whether the people who were coming to see us were azerbaijanis jews or russians we had friends of many nationalities even a turkmen woman my parents were in the hall my father with an axe i remember him telling my mother run to the kitchen for a knife but mother was detached pale as though she had decided to sell her life a bit dearer to be honest i never expected it of her she s afraid of getting shot and afraid of the dark a girlfriend was at the house that day a russian girl lyuda and mamma said no matter what happens no matter what they do to us you re not to come out of the bedroom we re going to tell them that we re alone in the apartment we went into the bedroom there were four of us marina and the russian girl crawled under the bed and we covered them up with a rug boxes of dishes and karina and i are standing there and looking at one another the idea that perhaps we were seeing each other for the last time flashed somewhere inside me i m an emotional person and i express my emotions immediately i wanted to embrace her and kiss her as though it were the last second and maybe karina was thinking the same thing but she s quite reserved we didn t have time to say anything to each other because we immediately heard mamma raise a shout there was so much noise from the tramping of feet from the shouting and from excited voices i couldn t figure what was going on out there because the door to the bedroom was only open a crack but when mamma shouted the second time karina ran out of the bedroom i ran after her i had wanted to hold her back but when she opened the door and ran out into the hall they saw us immediately the only thing i managed to do was close the door behind me at least so as to save marina and her friend the mob was shouting all of their eyes were shining all red like from insomnia at first about people burst in but later i was standing with my back to the door and couldn t see they came into the hall into the kitchen and dragged my father into the other room he didn t utter a word he just raised the axe to hit them but mamma snatched the axe from behind and said tell them not to touch the children tell them they can do as they want with us but not to harm the children she said this to father in armenian there were azerbaijanis from armenia among the mob who broke in they understood armenian perfectly the local azerbaijanis don t know armenian they don t need to speak it and one of them responded in armenian you and your children both we re going to do the same thing to you and your children that you armenians did in kafan they killed our women our girls our mothers they cut their breasts off and burned our houses and so on and so forth and we came to do the same thing to you this whole time some of them are destroying the house and the others are shouting at us they were mostly young people under at first there weren t any older people among them and all of their faces were unfamiliar sumgait is a small town all the same and we know a lot of people by their faces especially me i m a teacher so they dragged my father into the other room they twisted his arms and took him in there no they didn t take him in there they dragged him in there because he was already unable to walk they closed the door to that room all but a crack we couldn t see what was happening to father what they were doing to him then a young man about years old started to tear off mamma s sarafan and mamma shouted at him in azerbaijani i m old enough to be your mother what are you doing he struck her now he s being held mamma identified him i hope he s convicted then they went after karina who s been talking to them like a komsomol leader as though she were trying to lead them down a different path as they say to influence their consciousness she told them that what they were doing was wrong that they mustn t do it she said come on let s straighten this out without emotions what do you want who are you why did you come here what did we ever do to you someone tried to explain who they were and why they had come into our home but then the ones in the back more of them kept coming and coming said what are you talking to them for you should kill them we came here to kill them they pushed karina struck her and she fell down they beat her but she didn t cry out even when they tore her clothes off she kept repeating what did we do to you what did we do to you and even later when she came to she said mamma what did we do to them why did they do that to us that group was prepared i know this because i noticed that some of them only broke up furniture and others only dealt with us i remember that when they were beating me when they were tearing my clothes off i felt neither pain nor shame because my entire attention was riveted to karina all i could do was watch how much they beat her and how painful it was for her and what they did to her that s why i felt no pain later when they carried karina off they beat her savagely it s really amazing that she not only lived but didn t lose her mind she is very beautiful and they did everything they could to destroy her beauty mostly they beat her face with their fists kicking her using anything they could find mamma karina and i were all in one room and again i didn t feel any pain just didn t feel any no matter how much they beat me no matter what they did then one of those creeps said that there wasn t enough room in the apartment they broke up the beds and the desk and moved everything into the corners so there would be more room then someone suggested let s take her outside those beasts were in heaven they did what they would do every day if they weren t afraid of the authorities those were their true colors at the time i thought that in fact they would always behave that way if they weren t afraid of what would happen to them when they carried karina out and beat mamma her face was completely covered with blood that s when i started to feel the pain i blacked out several times from the pain but each moment that i had my eyes open it was as though i were recording it all on film i think i m a kind person by nature but i m vengeful especially if someone is mean to me and i don t deserve it i hold a grudge a long time if someone intentionally causes me pain and every time i would come to and see one of those animals on top of me i d remember them and i ll remember them for the rest of my life even though people tell me forget you have to forget you have to go on living at some point i remember that they stood me up and told me something and despite the fact that i hurt all over i had been beaten terribly i found the strength in myself to interfere with their tortures i realized that i had to do something resist them or just let them kill me to bring my suffering to an end i pushed one of them away he was a real horse i remember now that he s being held too as though they were all waiting for it they seized me and took me out onto the balcony i had long hair and it was stuck all over me one of the veranda shutters to the balcony was open and i realized that they planned to throw me out the window because they had already picked me up with their hands i was up in the air as though for the last time i took a really deep breath and closed my eyes and somehow braced myself inside i suddenly became cold as though my heart had sunk into my feet and suddenly i felt myself flying i couldn t figure out if i was really flying or if i just imagined it when i came to i thought now i m going to smash on the ground and when it didn t happen i opened my eyes and realized that i was still lying on the floor and since i didn t scream didn t beg them at all they became all the more wild like wolves they started to trample me with their feet shoes with heels on them and iron horseshoes like they had spe cially put them on then i lost consciousness i came to a couple of times and waited for death summoned it beseeched it some people ask for good health life happiness but at that moment i didn t need any of those things i was sure that none of us would survive and i had even forgotten about marina and if none of us was alive it wasn t worth living there was a moment when the pain was especially great i withstood inhuman pain and realized that they were going to torment me for a long time to come because i had showed myself to be so tenacious i started to strangle myself and when i started to wheeze they realized that with my death i was going to put an end to their pleasures and they pulled my hands from my throat the person who injured and insulted me most painfully i remember him very well because he was the oldest in the group he looked around i know that he has four children and that he considers himself an ideal father and person one who would never do such a thing something came over him then you see even during the investigation he almost called me daughter he apologized although of course he knew that i d never forgive him something like that i can never forgive i have never injured anyone with my behavior with my words or with my deeds i have always put myself in the other person s shoes but then in a matter of hours they trampled me entirely i shall never forget it i wanted to do myself in then because i had nothing to lose because no one could protect me my father who tried to do something against that hoard of beasts by himself could do nothing and wouldn t be able to do anything i knew that i was even sure that he was no longer alive and ira melkumian my acquaintance i knew her and had been to see her family a couple of times her brother tried to save her and couldn t so he tried to kill her his very own sister he threw an axe at her to kill her and put an end to her suffering when they stripped her clothes off and carried her into the other room her brother knew what awaited her i don t know which one it was edik or igor both of them were in the room from which the axe was thrown but the axe hit one of the people carrying her and so they killed her and made her death even more excruciating maybe the most excruciating of all the deaths of those days in sumgait i heard about it all from the neighbor from the melkumians landing his name is makhaddin he knows my family a little he came to see how we had gotten settled in the new apartment in baku how we were feeling and if we needed anything he s a good person he said you should praise god that you all survived but what i saw with my own eyes i a man who has seen so many people die who has lived a whole life i he says nearly lost my mind that day i had never seen the likes of it and think i never shall again the door to his apartment was open and he saw everything one of the brothers threw the axe because they had already taken the father and mother out of the apartment igor edik and ira remained he saw ira naked being carried into the other room in the hands of six or seven people he told us about it and said he would never forget it he heard the brothers shouting something inarticulate from pain rage and the fact that they were powerless to do anything but all the same they tried to do something the guy who got hit with the axe lived i i after i had been unsuccessful at killing myself i saw them taking marina and lyuda out of the bedroom i was in such a state that i couldn t even remember my sister s name i wanted to cry marina out to her but could not i looked at her and knew that it was a familiar dear face but couldn t for the life of me remember what her name was and who she was and thus i saved her because when they were taking her out she as it turns out had told them that she had just been visiting and that she and lyuda were both there by chance that they weren t armenians lyuda s a russian you can tell right away and marina speaks azerbaijani wonderfully and she told them that she was an azerbaijani and i almost gave her away and doomed her i m glad that at least marina came out of this all in good physical health although her spirit was murdered at some point i came to and saw igor igor agayev my acquaintance in that mob he lives in the neighboring building for some reason i remembered his name maybe i sensed my defense in him i called out to him in russian igor help but he turned away and went into the bedroom just then they were taking marina and lyuda out of the bedroom igor said he knew marina and lyuda that marina in fact was azerbaijani and he took both of them to the neighbors and the idea stole through me that maybe igor had led them to our apartment something like that but if he was my friend he was supposed to save me then they were striking me very hard we have an indian vase a metal one they were hitting me on the back with it and i blacked out they took me out onto the balcony a second time to throw me out the window they were already sure that i was dead because i didn t react at all to the new blows someone said she s already dead let s throw her out when they carried me out onto the balcony for the second time when i was about to die the second time i heard someone say in azerbaijani don t kill her i know her she s a teacher i can still hear that voice ringing in my ears but i can t remember whose voice it was it wasn t igor because he speaks azerbaijani with an accent his mother is russian and they speak russian at home he speaks azerbaijani worse than our marina does i remember when they carried me in and threw me on the bed he came up to me that person and i having opened my eyes saw and recognized that person but immediately passed out cold i had been beaten so much that i didn t have the strength to remember him i only remember that this person was older and he had a high position unfortunately i can t remember anything more what should i say about igor he didn t treat me badly i had heard a lot about him that he wasn t that good a person that he sometimes drank too much once he boasted to me that he had served in afghanistan he knew that women usually like bravery in a man especially if a man was in afghanistan if he was wounded then it s about eighty percent sure that he will be treated very sympathetically with respect later i found out that he had served in ufa and was injured but that s not in afghanistan of course i found that all out later among the people who were in our apartment my karina also saw the secretary of the party organization i don t know his last name his first name is najaf he is an armenian born azerbaijani but later karina wasn t so sure she was no longer a hundred percent sure that it was he she saw and she didn t want to endanger him she said he was there and a little while later maybe they beat me so much that i am confusing him with someone else no it seems like it was he i am sure it was he because when he came to see us the first time he said one thing and the next time he said something entirely different the investigators haven t summoned him yet he came to see us in the khimik boarding house where we were living at the time he brought groceries and flowers this was right before march th he almost started crying he was so upset to see our condition i don t know if he was putting us on or not but later after we had told the investigator and they summoned him to the procuracy he said that he had been in baku he wasn t in sumgait the fact that he changed his testimony leads me to believe that karina is right that in fact it was he who was in our apartment i don t know how the investigators are now treating him at one point i wondered and asked and was told that he had an alibi and was not in our apartment couldn t he have gone to baku and arranged an alibi i m not ruling out that possibility ill now return to our apartment mamma had come to you could say that she bought them off with the gold father gave her when they were married her wedding band and her watch were gold she bought her own and her husband s lives with them she gave the gold to a year old boy vadim vorobyev a russian boy he speaks azerbaijani perfectly he s an orphan who was raised by his grandfather and who lives in sumgait on nizami street he goes to a special school one for mentally handicapped children but i ll say this i m a teacher all the same and in a matter of minutes i can form an opinion that boy is not at all mentally handicapped he s healthy he can think just fine and analyze too policemen should be so lucky and he s cunning too after that he went home and tore all of the pictures out of his photo album he beat mamma and demanded gold saying lady if you give us all the gold and money in your apartment we ll let you live and mamma told them where the gold was he brought in the bag and opened it shook out the contents and everyone who was in the apartment jumped on it started knocking each other over and taking the gold from one another i m surprised they didn t kill one another right then mamma was still in control of herself she had been beaten up her face was black and blue from the blows and her eyes were filled with blood and she ran into the other room father was lying there tied up with a gag in his mouth and a pillow over his face there was a broken table on top of the pil low mamma grabbed father and he couldn t walk like me he was half dead halfway into the other world he couldn t comprehend anything couldn t see and was covered with black and blue mamma pulled the gag out of his mouth it was some sort of cloth i think it was a slipcover from an armchair the bandits were still in our apartment even in the room mamma pulled father out of led him out of carried him out of we had two armchairs in that room a small magazine table a couch a television and a screen three people were standing next to that screen and into their shirts their pants everywhere imaginable they were shoving shot glasses and cups from the coffee service mamma saw them out of the corner of her eye she said i was afraid to turn around i just seized father and started pulling him but at the threshold i couldn t hold him up he fell down and i picked him up again and dragged him down the stairs to the neighbors mamma remembered one of the criminals the one who had watched her with his face half turned toward her out of one eye she says i realized that my death would come from that person i looked him in the eyes and he recoiled from fear and went stealing later they caught that scoundrel meanwhile mamma grabbed father and left i was alone igor had taken marina away mamma and father were gone karina was already outside i didn t know what they were doing to her i was left all alone and at that moment i became someone else do you understand even though i knew that neither mother and father in the other room nor marina and lyuda under the bed could save me all the same i somehow managed to hold out i went on fighting them i bit someone i remember and i scratched another but when i was left alone i realized what kind of people they were the ones i had observed the ones who beat karina what kind of people they were the ones who beat me that it was all unnecessary that i was about to die and that all of that would die with me at some point i took heart when i saw the young man from the next building i didn t know his name but we would greet one another when we met we knew that we were from the same microdistrict when i saw him i said neighbor is that you in so doing i placed myself in great danger he realized that if i lived i would remember him that s when he grabbed the axe the axe that had been taken from my father i automatically fell to my knees and raised my hands to take the blow of the axe although at the time it would have been better if he had struck me in the head with the axe and put me out of my misery when he started getting ready to wind back for the blow someone came into the room the newcomer had such an impact on everyone that my neighbor s axe froze in the air everyone stood at attention for this guy like soldiers in the presence of a general everyone waited for his word continue the atrocities or not he said enough let s go to the third entryway in the third entryway they killed uncle shurik aleksandr gambarian this confirms once again that they had prepared in advance almost all of them left with him as they went picking up pillows blankets whatever they needed whatever they found all the way up to worn out slippers and one boot someone else had already taken the other four people remained in the room soldiers who didn t obey their general they had to have come recently because other faces had flashed in front of me over those to hours but i had never seen those three one of them kuliyev i identified him later a native of the sisian district of armenia an azerbaijani had moved to azerbaijan a year before he told me in armenian sister don t be afraid i ll drive those three azerbaijanis out of here that s just what he said those azerbaijanis as though he himself were not azerbaijani but some other nationality he said with such hatred i ll drive them out of here now and you put your clothes on and find a hammer and nails and nail the door shut because they ll be coming back from apartment that s when i found out that they had gone to apartment before that the person in the eskimo dogskin coat the one who came in and whom they listened to the general said that they were going to the third entryway kuliyev helped me get some clothes on because l couldn t do it by myself marina s old fur coat was lying on the floor he threw it over my shoulders i was racked with shivers and he asked where he could find nails and a hammer he wanted to give them to me so that when he left i could nail the door shut but the door was lying on the floor in the hall i went out onto the balcony there were broken windows and flowers and dirt from flowerpots were scattered on the floor it was impossible to find anything he told me well fine i won t leave you here would any of the neighbors let you in they ll be back they won t calm down they know you re alive he told me all this in armenian then he returned to the others and said what are you waiting for leave they said ah you just want to chase us out of here and do it with her yourself no we want to do it to he urged them on but gently not coarsely because he was alone against them although they were still just boys not old enough to be drafted he led them out of the room and went down to the third floor with them himself and said leave what s the mat ter aren t you men go fight with the men what do you want of her and he came back upstairs they wanted to come up after him and he realized that he couldn t hold them off forever then he asked me where he could hide me i told him at the neighbors on the fourth floor apartment we were on really good terms with them we knocked on the door and he explained in azerbaijani the neighbor woman opened the door and immediately said i m an azerbaijani he said i know let her sit at your place a while don t open the door to anyone no one knows about this i won t tell anyone let her stay at your place she says fine have her come in i went in she cried a bit and gave me some stockings i had gone entirely numb and was racked with nervous shudders i burst into tears even though i was wearing marina s old fur coat it s a short one a half length i was cold all the same i asked do you know where my family is what happened to them she says no i don t know anything i m afraid to go out of the apartment now they re so wild that they don t look to see who s azerbaijani and who s armenian kuliyev left ten minutes later my neighbor says you know lyuda i don t want to lose my life because of you or my son and his wife go stay with someone else during the butchery in our apartment one of the scum a sadist took my earring in his mouth i had pearl earrings on and ripped it out tearing the earlobe the other earring was still there when i m nervous i fix my hair constantly and then when i touched my ear i noticed that i had one earring on i took it out and gave it to her she took the earring but she led me out of the apartment i went out and didn t know where to go i heard someone going upstairs i don t know who it was but assumed it was them with tremendous difficulty i end up to our apartment i wanted to die in my own home i go into the apartment and hear that they are coming up to our place to the fifth floor i had to do something i went into the bedroom where marina and lyuda had hidden and saw that the bed was overturned instead of hiding i squatted near some broken christmas ornaments found an unbroken one and started sobbing then they came in someone said that there were still some things to take i think that someone pushed me under the bed i lay on the floor and there were broken ornaments on it under my head and legs i got all cut up but i lay there without moving my heart was beating so hard it seemed the whole town could hear it there were no lights on maybe that s what saved me they were burning matches and toward the end they brought in a candle they started picking out the clothes that could still be worn they took father s sport jacket and a bedspread the end of which was under my head they pulled on the one end and it felt like they were pulling my hair out i almost cried out and again i realized i wasn t getting out of there alive and i started to strangle myself again i took my throat in one hand and pressed the other on my mouth so as not to wheeze so that i would die and they would only find me afterward they were throwing the burned matches under the bed and i got burned but i withstood it something inside of me held on someone s hand was protecting me to the end i knew that i was going to die but i didn t know how i knew that if i survived i would walk out of that apartment but if i found out that one of my family had died i would die for sure because i had never been so close to death and couldn t imagine how you could go on living without your mother or father or without your sister marina i thought was still alive she went to lyuda s place or someone is hiding her i tried to think that igor wouldn t let them be killed he served in afghanistan he should protect her while i was strangling myself i said my good byes to everyone and then i thought how could marina survive alone if they killed all of us how would she live all by herself there were six people in the room they talked among themselves and smoked one talked about his daughter saying that there was no children s footwear in our apartment that he could take for his daughter another said that he liked the apartment recently we had done a really good job fixing everything up and that he would live there after everything was all over they started to argue a third one says how come you get it i have four children and there are three rooms here that s just what i need all these years i ve been living in god awful places another one says neither of you gets it we ll set fire to it and leave then someone said that azerbaijanis live right next door the fire could move over to their place and they to my good fortune didn t set fire to the apartment and left oh yes i just remembered while they were raping me they repeated quite frequently let the armenian women have babies for us muslim babies let them bear azerbaijanis for the struggle against the armenians then they said those muslims can carry on our holy cause heroes they repeated it very often reference for the sumgait tragedy pogroms against armenians in soviet azerbaijan volume i eyewitness accounts edited by samuel shahmuradian forward by yelena bonner published by aristide d caratzas ny pages david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
talk.politics.mideast	accounts of anti armenian human right violations in azerbaijan b accounts of anti armenian human right violations in azerbaijan part b prelude to current events in nagorno karabakh part b of oh yes i just remembered while they were raping me they repeated quite frequently let the armenian women have babies for us muslim babies let them bear azerbaijanis for the struggle against the armenians then they said those muslims can carry on our holy cause heroes they repeated it very often continued from part a the six of them left they left and i had an attack i realized that the dan ger was past and stopped controlling myself i relaxed for a moment and the physical pain immediately made itself felt my heart and kidneys hurt i had an awful kidney attack i rolled back and forth on top of those christmas ornaments howling and howling i didn t know where i was or how long this went on when we figured out the time later it turned out that i howled and was in pain for around an hour then all my strength was gone and i burst into tears i started feeling sorry for myself and so on and so forth then someone came into the room i think i hear someone calling my name i want to respond and restrain myself i think that i m hallucinating i am silent and then it continues it seems that first a man s voice is calling me then a woman s later i found out that mamma had sent our neighbor the one whose apartment she was hiding in uncle sabir kasumov to our place telling him i know that they ve killed lyuda go there and at least bring her corpse to me so they don t violate her corpse he went and returned empty handed but mamma thought he just didn t want to carry the corpse into his apartment she sent him another time and then sent his wife and they were walking through the rooms looking for me but i didn t answer their calls there was no light they had smashed the chandeliers and lamps they started the pogrom in our apartment around five o clock and at i went down to the kasumovs i went down the stairs myself i walked out of the apartment how long can you wait for your own death how long can you be cowardly afraid come what will i walked out and started knocking on the doors one after the next no one not on the fifth floor not on the fourth opened the door on the third floor on the landing of the stairway uncle sabir s son started to shout aunt roza don t cry lyuda s alive he knocked on his own door and out came aunt tanya igor and after them mamma aunt tanya uncle sabir s wife is an urdmurt all of us were in their apartment i didn t see karina but she was in their home too lying delirious she had a fever marina was there too and my father and mother all of my family had gathered there at the door i lost consciousness igor and aunt tanya carried me into the apartment later i found out what they had done to our karina mamma said lyuda karina s in really serious condition she s probably dying if she recognizes you don t cry don t tell her that her face looks so awful it was as though her whole face was paralyzed you know everything was pushed over to one side her eye was all swollen and everything flowed together her lips her cheeks it was as though they had dragged her right side around the whole microdistrict that s how disfigured her face was i said fine mamma was afraid to go into the room because she went in and hugged karina and started to cry i went in as soon as i saw her my legs gave way i fell down near the bed hugged her legs and started kissing them and crying she opened the eye that was intact looked at me and said who is it but i could barely talk my whole face was so badly beaten i didn t say but rather muttered something tender something incomprehensible but tender my karochka my karina my little golden one she understood me then igor brought me some water i drank it down and moistened karina s lips she started to groan she was saying something to me but i couldn t understand it then i made out it hurts i hurt all over her hair was glued down with blood i stroked her forehead her head she had grit on her forehead and on her lips she was groaning again and i don t know how to help her she calls me over with her hand come closer i go to her she s saying something to me but i can t understand her igor brings her a pencil and paper and says write it down she shakes her head as if to say no i can t write i can t understand what she s saying she wanted to tell me something but she couldn t i say karina just lie there a little while then maybe you ll feel better and you can tell me then and then she says maybe it ll be too late and i completely just broke down i couldn t control myself then i moistened my hand in the water and wiped her forehead and eye i dipped a handkerchief into the water and squeezed a little water onto her lips she says lyuda we re not saved yet we have to go somewhere else out of this damned house they want to kill us i know they ll find us here too we need to call urshan she repeated this to me for almost a whole hour until i understood her every word i ask what s his number urshan feyruzovich that s the head of the administration where she works we have to call him but i didn t know his home number i say karina what s his number she says i can t remember i say who knows his number who can i call she says i don t know anything leave me alone i went out of the room igor stayed to watch over her and sat there he was crying too i say mamma karina says that we have to call urshan how can we call him who knows his telephone number i tell marina think think who can we call to find out she started calling several people didn t answer she called a girlfriend her girlfriend called another girlfriend and found out the number and called us back the boss s wife answered and said he was at the dacha my voice keeps cracking i can t talk normally she says lyuda don t panic get a hold of yourself go out to those hooligans and tell them that they just can t do that she still didn t know what was really going on i said it s easy for you to say that you don t understand what s happening they are killing people here i don t think there is a single armenian left in the building they ve cut them all up i m even surprised that we managed to save ourselves she says well ok if it s that serious and all the same she s thinking that my emotions are all churned up and that i m fearing for my life that in fact it s not all that bad ok fine fine she says if you re afraid ok as soon as urshan comes back i ll send him over we called again because they had just started robbing the apartment directly under aunt tanya s on the second floor asya dallakian s apartment she wasn t home she was staying with her daughter in karabagh they destroyed everything there we realized that they still might come back we kept on trying to get through to aunt tanya urshan s wife is named tanya too and finally we get through she says yes he s come home he s leaving for your place now he came of course he didn t know what was happening either because he brought two of his daughters with him he came over in his jeep with his two daughters like he was going on an outing he came and saw what shape we were in and what was going on in town and got frightened he has grown up daughters they re almost my age the three of us carried out karina tossed a coat on her and a warm scarf and went down to his car he took karina and me to the maternity home no first they took us to the po ice precinct they had stretchers ready as soon as we got out of the car they put karina and me on stretchers and said that we were in serious condition and that we mustn t move we might have fractures from the stretcher i saw about soldiers sitting and lying on the first floor bandaged on the concrete floor groaning this was around eleven o clock at night we had left the house somewhere around when i saw those soldiers i realized that a war was going on soldiers enemies everything just like a war they carried me into some office on the stretcher the emergency medical people from baku were there the medical attendant there was an older armenian urshan told him what they had done to karina because she s so proud she would never have told and this aging armenian his name was uncle arkady i think because someone said arkady get an injection ready he started to fill a syringe and turned around so as to give karina a shot but when he looked at her face he became ill and he was an old man in his sixties his hair was all grey and his moustache too he hugged karina and started to cry what have they done to you he was speaking armenian what have they done to you karina didn t say anything mamma came in then and she started to cry too the man tried to calm her i ll give you a shot mamma tells him i don t need any shot where is the government just what are they doing look what they ve done to my children they re killing people and you re just sitting here some teacups were standing on the table in there you re sitting here drinking tea look what they ve done to my daughters look what they ve turned them into they gave her something to drink some heart medicine i think they gave karina an injection and the doctor said that she had to be taken to the maternity home immediately papa and urshan i think even though papa was in bad shape helped carry karina out when they put her on the stretcher none of the medics got near her i don t know maybe there weren t any orderlies then they came to me what s the matter with you their tone was so official that i wrapped myself tighter in the half length coat i had a blanket on too an orange one aunt tanya s i said i m fine uncle arkady came over and was soothing me and then told the doctor you leave let a woman examine her a woman came an azerbaijani i believe and said what s wrong with you i was wearing my sister lyuda s nightshirt the sister who at this time was in yerevan when she was nursing her infant she had cut out a big hole in it so that it would be easier to breast feed the baby i tore the night shirt some more and showed her i took it off my shoulders and turned my back to her there was a huge wound about the size of a hand on my back from the indian vase she said something to them and they gave me two shots she said that it should be dressed with something but that they d do that in the hospital they put me on a stretcher too they started looking for people to carry me i raised up my head a little and wanted to sit up and this woman i don t know if she was a doctor or a nurse said lie still you mustn t move when i was lying back down i saw two policemen leading a man his profile seemed very familiar to me i shouted stop one of the policemen turned and says what do you want i say bring him to me i want to look at him they brought him over and i said that person was just in our apartment and he just raped me and my sister i recognize him note it down they said fine but didn t write it down and led him on i don t know where they were taking him then they put my stretcher near where the injured and beaten soldiers were sitting they went to look for the ambulance driver so he would bring the car up closer one of the soldiers started talking to me sister i don t remember the conversation exactly but he asked me were we lived and what they did to us i asked him where are you from he said that he was from ufa apparently they were the first that were brought in the ufa police later i learned that they suffered most of all he says ok you re armenians they didn t get along with you but i m a russian he says what are they trying to kill me for oh i remembered something else when i went out onto the balcony with kuliyev for a hammer and nails i looked out the window and saw two azerbaijanis beating a soldier near the kindergarten he was pressed against the fence and he covered his head with his arms they were beating him with his own club the way he cried mamma made my skin crawl i don t know what they did to him if he s still alive or not and something else before he attack on our house we saw sheets clothes and some dishes flying from the third or fourth floor of the neighboring building but i didn t think it was azerbaijanis attacking armenians i thought that something was on fire or they were throwing something they didn t need out or someone was fighting with someone it was only later when they were burning a passenger car in the yard when the neighbors said that they were doing that to the armenians that i realized that this was serious that it was anti armenian they took karina and me to the sumgait maternity home mamma went to them too and said i ve been beaten too help me but they just ignored her my father went to them and said in a guilty voice as though it was his fault that he d been beaten and says my ribs hurt so much those creeps have probably broken my ribs please look at them the doctor says that s not my job urshan said fine i ll take you to my place and if we need a doctor i ll find you one i ll bring one and have him look at you and he drove them to his apartment marina and i stayed there they examined us i was more struck by what the doctor said than by what those azerbaijanis in our apartment did to us i wasn t surprised when they beat us they wanted to beat us but i was very surprised that in a soviet medical facility a woman who had taken the hippocratic oath could talk to victims like that by happy or unhappy coincidence we were seen by the doctor that had delivered our karina and she having examined karina said no problem you got off pretty good not like they did in kafan when you armenians were killing and raping our women karina was in such terrible condition that she couldn t say anything she would certainly have had something to say then they examined me the same story they put us in a separate ward no shots no medicinal powders no drugs absolutely none they didn t even give us tea all the women there soon found out that in ward such and such were armenians who had been raped and they started coming and peering through the keyhole the way people look at zoo animals karina didn t see this she was lying there and i kept her from seeing it they put ira b in our ward she had also been raped true she didn t have any serious bodily injuries but when she told me what had happened at their place i felt worse for them than i did for us because when they raped ira her daughter was in the room she was under the bed on which it happened and ira was holding her daughter s hand the one who was hiding under the bed when they were beating ira or taking her earrings off gold when she involuntarily let go of her daughter s hand her daughter took her hand again her daughter is in the fourth grade she s years old i felt really awful when i heard that ira asked them not to harm her daughter she said do what you want with me just leave my daughter alone well they did what they wanted they threatened to kill her daughter if she got in their way now i would be surprised if the criminals had behaved any other way that night it was simply bartholomew s night i say they did what they would love to do every day steal kill rape many are surprised that those animals didn t harm the children the beasts explained it like this this would be repeated in to years and those children would be grown and then as they put it we ll come take the pleasure out of their lives those children this was about the girls that would be young women in years they were thinking about their tomorrow because they were sure that there would be no trial and no investigation just as there was no trial or investigation in and that those girls could be of some use in years this i heard from the investigators one of the victims testified to it that s how they described their own natures that they would still be bloodthirsty in to years and in years they themselves said that and this too everyone is surprised that they didn t harm our marina many people say that they either were drunk or had smoked too much i don t know why their eyes were red maybe because they hadn t slept the night before maybe for some other reason i don t know but they hadn t been smoking and they weren t drunk i m positive because someone who has smoked will stop at nothing he has the urge to do and they spoke in a cultured fashion with marina little sister don t be afraid we won t harm you don t look over there where i was you might be frightened you re a muslim a muslim woman shouldn t see such things so they were really quite sober so we came out of that story alive each every day we have lived since it all happened bears the mark of that day it wasn t even a day of those several hours father still can t look us in the eyes he still feels guilty for what happened to karina mother and me because of his nerves he s started talk ing to himself i ve heard him argue with himself several times when he thought no one is listening listen he ll say what could i do what could i do alone how could i protect them i don t know where to find the words it s not that i m happy but i am glad that he didn t see it all happen that s the only thing they spared us or maybe it happened by chance of course he knows it all but there s no way you could imagine every last detail of what happened and there were so many conversations karina and i spoke together in private and we talked with mamma too but father was never present at those conversations we spare him that if you can say that and when the investigator comes to the house we don t speak with father present on february the next clay karina and i were discharged from the hospital first they released me but since martial law had been declared in the city the soldiers took me to the police precinct in an armored personnel carrier there were many people there armenian victims i met the tovmasian family there from them i learned that rafik and their uncle grant had died they were sure that both had died they were talking to me and raya rafik s wife and grant s daughter and her mother were both crying then they took us all out of the office on the first floor into the yard there s a little one room house outside there a recreation and reading area they took us in there the women were afraid to go because they thought that they were shooing us out of the police precinct because it had become so dangerous that even the people working at the precinct wanted to hide the women were shouting they explained to them we want to hide you better because it s possible there will be an attack on the police precinct we went into the little house there were no chairs or tables in there we had children with us and they were hungry we even had infants who needed to have their diapers changed no one had anything with them it was just awful they kept us there for hours from the window of the one room house you could see that there were azerbaijanis standing on the fences around the police precinct as though they were spying on us the police precinct is surrounded by a wall like a fence and it s electrified but if they were standing on the wall it means the electricity was shut off this brought great psychological pressure to bear on us particularly on those who hadn t just walked out of their apartments but who hadn t slept for hours or or those who had suffered physically and spiritually the ones who had lost family members for us it was another ordeal we were especially frightened when all the precinct employees suddenly disappeared we couldn t see a single person not in the courtyard and not in the windows we thought that they must have already been hiding under the building that they must have some secret room down there people were panicking they started throwing themselves at one another that s the way it is on a sinking ship we heard those people mainly young people whistling and whopping on the walls we felt that the end was approaching i was completely terrified i had left karina in the hospital and didn t know where my parents were i was sort of calm about my parents i was thinking only about karina if heaven forbid they should attack the hospital they would immediately tell them that there was an armenian in there and something terrible would happen to karina again and she wouldn t be able to take it then soldiers with dogs appeared when they saw the dogs some of the people climbed down off the fence then they brought in about another soldiers they all had machine guns in readiness their fingers on the triggers we calmed down a little they brought us chairs and brought the children some little cots and showed us where we could wash our hands and took the children to the toilet but we all sat there hungry but to be honest it would never have occurred to any of us that we hadn t eaten for two days and that people do eat then closer to nightfall they brought a group of detained criminals they were being watched by soldiers with guard dogs one of the men came back from the courtyard and told us about it raya tovmasian it was like a different woman had been substituted earlier she had been crying wailing and calling out oh rafik but when she heard about this such a rage came over her she jumped up she had a coat on and she started to roll up her sleeves like she was getting ready to beat someone and suddenly there were soldiers and dogs and lots of people she ran over to them the bandits were standing there with their hands above their heads facing the wall she went up to one of them and grabbed him by the collar and started to shake and thrash him then on to a second and a third everyone was rooted to the spot not one of the soldiers moved no one went up to help or made her stop her from doing it and the bandits fell down and covered their heads with their hands muttering something she came back and sat down and something akin to a smile appeared on her face she became so quiet no tears no cries then that round was over and she went back to beat them again she was walking and cursing terribly take that and that they killed my husband the bastards the creeps and so on then she came back again and sat down she probably did this the whole night through well it wasn t really night no one slept she went five or six times and beat them and returned and she told the women what are you sitting there for they killed your husbands and children they raped and you re just sitting there you re sitting and talking as though nothing had happened aren t you armenians she appealed to everyone but no one got up i was just numb i didn t have the strength to beat anyone i could barely hold myself up all the more so since i had been standing for so many hours i was released at eleven o clock in the morning and it was already after ten at night because there weren t enough chairs really it was the elderly and women with children who sat i was on my feet the whole time there was nothing to breathe the door was closed and the men were smoking the situation was deplorable at eleven o clock at night policemen came for us local policemen azerbaijanis they said get up they ve brought mattresses you can wash up and put the children to bed now the women didn t want to leave this place either the place had become like home it was safe there were soldiers with dogs if anyone went outside the soldiers would say oh it s our little family and things like that the soldiers felt this love and probably for the first time in their lives perceived themselves as defenders everyone spoke from the heart cried and hugged them and they with their loaded machine guns in their hands said grandmother you mustn t approach me i m on guard our people would say oh that s all right they hugged them one woman even kissed one of the machine guns this was all terribly moving for me and the small children kept wanting to pet the dogs they took us up to the second floor and said you can undress and sleep in here don t be afraid the precinct is on guard and it s quiet in the city this was the th when the killing was going on in block a and in other places then we were told that all the armenians were being gathered at the sk club and at the city party committee they took us there on the way i asked them to stop at the maternity home i wanted to take karina with me i didn t know what was happening there they told me don t worry the maternity home is full of soldiers more than mothers to be so you can rest assured i say well i won t rest assured regardless because the staff in there is capable of anything when i arrived at the city party committee it turned out that karina had already been brought there they had seen fit to release her from the hospi tal deciding that she felt fine and was no longer in need of any care once we were in the city party committee we gave free reign to our tears we met acquaintances but everyone was somehow divided into two groups those who hadn t been injured who were clothed who had brought a pot of food with them and so on and those like me like raya who were wearing whatever had come their way there were even people who were all made up dolled up like they had come from a wedding there were people without shoes naked people hungry people those who were crying and those who had lost someone and of course the stories and the talk were flying oh i heard that they killed him what do you mean they killed him he stayed at work do you know what s happening at this and such a plant talk like that and then i met aleksandr mikhailovich gukasian the teacher i know him very well and respect him highly i ve known him for a long time they had a small room well really it was more like a study room we spent a whole night talking in that study once on march we heard that bagirov first secretary of the communist party of azerbaijan ssr had arrived everyone ran to see bagirov what news he had brought with him and how this was all being viewed from outside he arrived and everyone went up to him to talk to him and ask him things everyone was in a tremendous rage but he was protected by soldiers and he went up to the second floor and didn t deign to speak with the people apparently he had more important things to do several hours passed gukasian called me and says lyudochka find another two or three we re going to make up lists they asked for them upstairs lists of the dead those whose whereabouts are unknown and lists of people who had pogroms of their apartments and of those whose cars were burned i had about people in my list when they called me and said lyuda your mamma has arrived she s looking for you she doesn t believe that you are alive and well and that you re here i gave the lists to someone and asked them to continue what i was doing and went off the list was imprecise of course it included grant adamian raya tovmasian s father who was alive but at the time they thought him dead there was engels grigorian s father and aunt cherkez and maria the list also included the name of my girlfriend and neighbor zhanna agabekian one of the guys said that he had been told that they chopped her head off in the courtyard in front of the kosmos movie theater we put her on the list too and cried but later it turned out that that was just a rumor that in fact an hour earlier she had somehow left sumgait for the marina and from there had set sail for krasnovodsk where thank god she was alive and well i should also say that in addition to those who died that list contained people who were rumored missing or who were so badly wounded that they were given up for dead all the lists were taken to bagirov i don t remember how many dead were contained in the list but it s a fact that when gukasian came in a couple of minutes later he was cursing and was terribly irate i asked what s going on he said lyuda can you imagine what animals what scoundrels they are they say that they lost the list of the dead piotr demichev member of the politburo of the central committee of the communist party of the ussr has just arrived and we were supposed to submit the list to him so that he d see the scope of the slaughter of the tragedy whether it was one or fifty they told him that the list had disappeared and they should ask everyone who hadn t left for the khimik boarding house all over again there were people on our second list i think that the number was the one that got into the press and onto television and the radio because that s the list that demichev got i remember exactly that there were people on the list i had even told aleksandr mikhailovich that that was only a half of those that were on the first list he said lyuda please try to remember at least one more but i couldn t remember anyone else but there were more than dead of that i am certain the government and the procuracy don t count the people who died of fright like sick people and old people whose lives are threatened by any shock they weren t registered as victims of the sumgait tragedy and then there may be people we didn t know so many people left sumgait between march and most of them left for smaller towns in russia and especially to the northern caucasus to stavropol and the krasnodarsk territory we don t have any information on them i know that there are people who set out for parts around moscow in the periodical krestyanka woman farmer there was a call for people who know how to milk cows and for mechanics and drivers and i know a whole group of people went to help out also clearly not on our list are those people who died entering the city who were burned in their cars no one knows about them except the azerbaijanis who are hardly likely to say anything about it and there s more a great many of the people who were raped were not included in the list drawn up at the procuracy i know of three instances for sure and i of course don t know them all i m thinking of three women whose parents chose not to publicize what had happened that is they didn t take the matter to court they simply left but in so doing they didn t cease being victims one of them is the first cousin of my classmate kocharian she lived in microdistrict no on the fifth floor i can t tell you the building number and i don t know her name then comes the neighbor of one of my relatives she lived in microdistrict near the gift shop i don t know her name she lives on the same landing as the sumgait procurator they beat her father he was holding the door while his daughter hid but he couldn t hold the door forever and when she climbed over the balcony to the neighbors they seized her by her braid like the azerbaijanis were saying it was a very cultured mob because they didn t kill anyone they only raped them and left and the third one i don t remember who the third one was anymore they transferred us on march karina still wasn t herself yes we lived for days in the sk in the cultural facility and at the khimik they lived there and i lived at the city party committee because i couldn t stay with karina it was too difficult for me but i was at peace she had survived i could already walk but really it was honest words that held me up thanks to the social work i did there i managed to persevere aleksandr mikhailovich said if it weren t for the work i would go insane he and i put ourselves in gear and took everything upon ourselves someone had an infant and needed diapers and free food and we went to get them the first days we bought everything although we should have received it for free they were supposed to have been dispensed free of charge and they sold it to us then when we found out it was free we went to krayev at the time fortunately you could still drop by to see him like a neighbor all the more so since everything was still clearly visible on our faces krayev sent a captain down and he resolved the issue on march they sent two investigators to see us andrei shirokov and vladimir fedorovich bibishev the way it worked out in our family they had considered only karina and me victims maybe because she and i wound up in the hospital mother and father are considered witnesses but not victims shirokov was involved with karina s case and bibishev with mine after i told him everything he and i planned to sit down with the identikit and record everyone i could remember while everything was still fresh in my mind we didn t work with the identikit until the very last day because the conditions weren t there the investigative group worked slowly and did poor quality work solely because the situation wasn t conducive to working there weren t enough automobiles especially during the time when there was a curfew and there were no typewriters for typing transcripts and no still or video cameras i think that this was done on purpose we re not so poor that we can t supply our investigators with all that stuff it was done especially to draw out the investigation all the more so since the local authorities saw that the armenians were leaving at the speed of light never to return to sumgait and the armenians had a lot to say i came to an agreement with bibishev i told him myself don t you worry if it takes us a month or two months i ll be here i m not afraid i looked death in the eyes five times in those two days i ll help you conduct the investigation he and i worked together a great deal and i used this to shelter karina i gave them so much to do that for a while they didn t have the time to get to her so that she would at least have a week or two to get back to being her self she was having difficulty breathing so we looked for a doctor to take x rays she couldn t eat or drink for nine days she was nauseous i didn t eat and drank virtually nothing for five days then on the fifth day when we were in baku already the investigator told me how long can you go on like this well fine so you don t want to eat you don t love yourself you re not taking care of yourself but you gave your word that you would see this investigation through we need you then i started eating because in fact i was exhausted it wasn t enough that i kept seeing those faces in our apart ment in my mind every day i went to the investigative solitary confinement cells and prisons i don t know we were just everywhere probably in every prison in the city of baku and in all the solitary confinement cells of sumgait at that time they had even turned the drunk tank into solitary confinement thus far i have identified of the people who were in our apartment mamma identified three and karina two the total is marina didn t identify anyone she remembers the faces of two or three but they weren t among the photographs of those detained i told of the neighbor i recognized the one who went after the axe he still hasn t been detained he s still on the loose he s gone and it s not clear if he will be found or not i don t know his first or last name i know which building he lived in and i know his sisters faces but he s not in the city the investigators informed me that even if the investigation is closed and even if the trial is over they will continue looking for him the people i identified are largely blue collar workers from various plants without education and of the very lowest level in every respect mostly their ages range from to years there was one who was only one of them was a student he was attending the azerbaijan petroleum and chemical institute in sumgait his mother kept trying to bribe the investiga tor once thinking that i was an employee and not a victim she said in front of me i ll set you up a restaurant worth rubles and give you in cash simply for keeping him out of armenia that is to keep him from landing in a prison on armenian soil they re all terribly afraid of that because if the investigator is talking with a criminal and the criminal doesn t confess even though we identified him they tell him in order to apply psychological pressure they say fine don t confess just keep silent when you re in an armenian prison when they find out who you are they ll take care of you in short order that somehow gets to them many give in and start to talk the investigators and i were in our apartment and videotaped the entire pogrom of our apartment as an investigative experiment it was only then that i saw the way they had left our apartment even without knowing who was in our apartment you could guess they stole for example all the money and all the valuables but didn t take a single book they tore them up burned them poured water on them and hacked them with axes only the materials from the th congress of the communist party of the soviet union and james fenimore cooper s last of the mohigans oh yes lunch was ready we were boiling a chicken and there were lemons for tea on the table after they had been in our apartment both the chicken and the lemons were gone that s enough to tell you what kind of people were in our apartment people who don t even know anything about books they didn t take a single book but they did take worn clothing food and even the cheapest of the cheap worn out slippers of those whom i identified four were kafan azerbaijanis living in sumgait basically the group that went seeking revenge let s use their word for it was joined by people seeking easy gain and thrill seekers i talked with one of them he had gray eyes and somehow against the back drop of all that black i remembered him specifically because of his of his eyes besides taking part in the pogrom of our apartment he was also involved in the murder of tamara mekhtiyeva from building she was an older armenian who had recently arrived from georgia she lived alone and did not have anyone in sumgait i don t know why she had a last name like that maybe she was married to an azerbaijani i had laid eyes on this woman only once or twice and know nothing about her i do know that they murdered her in her apartment with an axe murdering her wasn t enough for them they hacked her into pieces and threw them into the tub with water i remember another guy really well too he was also rather fair skinned you know all the people who were in our apartment were darker than dark both their hair and their skin and in contrast with them in addition to the grey eyed one i remember this one fellow the one l took to be a lezgin i identified him as it turned out he was eduard robertovich grigorian born in the city of sumgait and he had been convicted twice one of our own how did i remember him the name rita was tattooed on his left or right hand i kept thinking is that rita or puma which it would be if you read the word as latin characters instead of cyrillic because the cyrillic t was the one that looks like a latin m when they led him in he sat with his hands behind his back this was at the confrontation he swore on every holy book tried to put in an armenian word here and there to try and spark my compassion and told me that i was making a mistake and called me dear sister he said you re wrong how could i an armenian raise my hand against my own an armenian and so on he spoke so convincingly that even the investigator asked me lyuda are you sure it was he i told him i ll tell you one more identifying mark if i m wrong i shall apologize and say i was mistaken the name rita is tattooed on his left or right hand he went rigid and became pale they told him put your hands on the table he put his hands on the table with the palms up i said now turn your hands over but he didn t turn his hands over now this infuriated me if he had from the very start acknowledged his guilt and said that he hadn t wanted to do it that they forced him or something else i would have treated him somewhat differently but he insolently stuck to his story no i did not do anything it wasn t me when they turned his hands over the name rita was in fact tattooed on his hand his face distorted and he whispered something wicked i immediately flew into a rage there was an ashtray on the table a really heavy one made out of granite or something very large and it had ashes and butts in it catching myself quite by surprise i hurled that ashtray at him but he ducked and the ashtray hit the wall and ashes and butts rained down on his head and back and he smiled when he smiled it provoked me further i don t know how but i jumped over the table between us and started either pounding him or strangling him i no longer remember which when i jumped i caught the microphone cord the investigator was there tolya i no longer recall his last name and he says lyudochka it s a japanese microphone please and shut off all the equipment on the spot it was all being video taped they took him away i stayed and they talked to me a little to calm me down because we needed to go on working i only remember tolya telling me you re some actress what a performance i said tolya honestly beforehand they would always tell me lyuda more emotion you speak as calmly as if nothing had happened to you i say i don t have any more strength or emotion all my emotions are behind me now i no longer have the strength i don t have the strength to do anything and he says lyuda how were you able to do that and when i returned to normal drinking tea and watching the tape i said can i really have jumped over that table i never jumped that high in gym class so you could say the gang that took over our apartment was international of the we identified there was an armenian a russian vadim vorobyev who beat mamma and azerbaijanis at the second meeting with grigorian when he had completely confessed his guilt he told of how on february the azerbaijanis had come knocking among them were guys if you can call them guys he knew from prison they said tomorrow we re going after the armenians meet us at the bus station at three o clock he said no i m not coming they told him if you don t come we ll kill you he said alright i ll come and he went they also went to visit my classmate from our microdistrict kamo pogosian he had also been in prison i think that together they had either stolen a motorcycle or dismantled one to get some parts they needed they called him out of his apartment and told him the same thing tomorrow we re going to get the armenians be there he said no they pulled a knife on him he said i m not going all the same and in the courtyard on the th they stabbed him several times in the stomach he was taken to the hospital i know he was in the hospital in baku in the republic hospital if we had known about that we would have had some idea of what was to come on the th i ll return to grigorian what he did in our apartment i remember that he beat me along with all the rest he spoke azerbaijani extremely well but he was very fair skinned maybe that led me to think that they had it out for him too but later it was proved that he took part in the beating and burning of shagen sargisian i don t know if he participated in the rapes in our apartment i didn t see i don t remember but the people who were in our apartment who didn t yet know that he was an armenian said that he did i don t know if he confessed or not and i myself don t recall because i blacked out very often but i think that he didn t participate in the rape of karina because he was in the apartment the whole time when they carried her into the courtyard he remained in the apartment at one point i was talking with an acquaintance about edik grigorian from her i learned that his wife was a dressmaker his mother is russian he doesn t have a father and that he s been convicted twice well this will be his third and i hope last sentence he beat his wife she was eternally coming to work with bruises his wife was an armenian by the name of rita the others who were detained well they re little beasts you really can t call them beasts they re just little beasts they were robots carrying out someone else s will because at the investigation they all said i don t understand how i could have done that i was out of my head but we know that they were won around to it and prepared for it that s why they did it in the name of allah in the name of the koran in the name of propagating islam that s holy to them that s why they did everything they were commanded to do because i saw they didn t have minds of their own i m not talking about their level of cultural sophistication or any higher values no education they work have a slew of children without the means to raise them properly they crowd them in like at the temporary housing and apparently they were promised that if they slaughtered the armenians they would receive apartments so off they went many of them explained their participation saying they promised us apartments among them was one who genuinely repented i am sure that he repented from the heart and that he just despised himself after the incident he worked at a children s home an azerbaijani he has two children and his wife works at the children s home too everything that they acquired everything that they have they earned by their own labor and wasn t inherited from parents or grandparents and he said i didn t need anything i just don t know how i ended up in that it was like some hand was guiding me i had no will of my own i had no strength no masculine dignity nothing and the whole time i kept repeating now you imagine that someone did the same to your young wife right before your own eyes he sat there and just wailed but that leader in the eskimo dogskin coat was not detained he performed a marvelous disappearing act but i think that they ll get onto him they just have to work a little because that vadim that boy according to his grandfather is in touch with the young person who taught him what to do how to cover his tracks he was constantly exchanging jackets with other boys he knew and those he didn t either and other things as well and changed himself like a chameleon so they wouldn t get onto him but he was detained that one in the eskimo dogskin coat was at the gambarians after aleksandr gambarian was murdered he came in and said let s go enough you ve spilled enough blood here maybe karina doesn t know this but the reason they didn t finish her off was that they were hoping to take her home with them i heard this from aunt tanya and her sons the kasumovs who were in the courtyard near the entryway they liked her very much and they had decided to take her to home with them when karina came to at one point she doesn t remember this yet this the neighbors old me and she saw that there was no one around her she started crawling to the entryway they saw that she was still alive and came back they were already at the third entryway on their way to the gambarians they came back and started beating her to finish her if she had not come to she would have sustained lesser bodily injuries they would have beat her less an older woman from our building aunt nazan an azerbaijani all but lay on top of karina crying and pleading that they leave her alone but they flung her off the woman s grown sons were right nearby they picked her up in their hands and led her home she howled and cried out loudly and swore god is on earth he sees everything and he won t forgive this there was another woman too aunt fatima a sick aging woman from the first floor she s already retired mountain dwellers and azerbaijanis too have a custom if men are fighting they throw a scarf under their feet to stop them but they trampled her scarf and sent her home to trample a scarf is tantamount to trampling a woman s honor now that the investigation is going on now that a lot is behind us and we have gotten back to being ourselves a little i think about how could these events that are now called the sumgait tragedy happen how did they come about how did it start could it have been avoided well it s clear that without a signal without permission from the top leadership it would not have happened all the same i m not afraid to say this the azerbaijanis let other worthy people take no offense the better representatives of their nations let them take no offense but the azerbaijanis in their majority are a people who are kept in line only by fear of the law fear of retribution for what they have done and when the law said that they could do all that like unleashed dogs who were afraid they wouldn t have time to do everything they threw themselves from one thing to the next so as to be able to get more done to snatch a bit more the smell of the danger was already in the air on february you could tell that something was going to happen and everyone who had figured it out took steps to avoid running into those gangs many left for their dachas got plane tickets for the other end of the country just got as far away as their legs would carry them february was a saturday i was teaching my third class the director came into my classroom and said that i should let the children out that there had been a call from the city party committee asking that all teachers gather for a meeting at lenin square well i excused the children and there were few teachers left at school altogether three women the director and six or seven men the rest had already gone home we got to lenin square and there were a great many people there this was around five thirty or six in the evening no later they were saying all kinds of rubbish up on the podium and the crowd below was supporting them stormily roaring they spoke over the microphone about what had happened in kafan a few days earlier and that the driver of a bus going to some district had recently thrown a small azerbaijani child off the bus the speaker affirmed that he was an eyewitness that he had seen it himself the crowd started to rage death to the armenians they must be killed then a woman went up on stage i didn t see the woman because people were clinging to the podium like flies i could only hear her the woman introduced herself as coming from kafan and said that the armenians cut her daughters breasts off and called sons avenge my daughters that was enough a portion of the people on the square took off running in the direction of the factories toward the beginning of lenin street we stood there about an hour then the director of school spoke he gave a very nationalist speech he said brother muslims kill the armenians this he repeated every other sentence when he said this the crowd supported him stormily whistling and shouting karabagh he said karabagh has been our territory my whole life long karabagh is my soul how can you tear out my heart as though an azerbaijani would die without karabagh it s our territory the armenians will never see it the armenians must be eliminated from time immemorial muslims have cleansed the land of infidel armenians from time immemorial that s the way nature created it that every to years the azerbaijanis should cleanse the land of filth by filth he meant armenians i heard this before that i hadn t been listening to the speeches closely many people spoke and i stood with my back to the podium talking shop with the other teachers and somehow it all went right by it didn t penetrate that in fact something serious was taking place then when one of our teachers said listen to what he s saying listen to what idiocy he s spouting we listened that was the speech of that director before that we listened to the woman s speech right then in our group there were nine of us the mood changed and the subject of conversation and all school matters were forgotten our director of studies for whom i had great respect he s an azerbaijani before that i had considered him an upstanding and worthy person if there was a need to obtain leave we had asked him he seemed like a good person so he tells me lyuda you know that besides you there are no armenians on the square if they find out that you re an armenian they ll tear you to pieces should i tell them you re an armenian should i tell them you re an armenian when he said it the first time i pretended not to hear it and then he asked me a second time i turned to the director khudurova and said that it was already after eight i was expected at home and i should be leaving she answered no they said that women should stay here until ten o clock and men until twelve stay here there was a young teacher with us her children were in kindergarten and her husband worked shifts she asked to leave i left my children at the kindergarten the director excused her when she let her go i turned around said good bye and left with the young teacher the azerbaijani i didn t see them after that when we were walking the buses weren t running and a crowd from the rally ran nearby us they had apparently gotten all fired up it must have become too much for them and they wanted to seek vengeance immediately so they rushed off i wasn t afraid this time because i was sure that the other teacher wouldn t say that i was an armenian to make it short we reached home then karina told of how they had been at the movies and what had happened there i started telling of my experience and again my parents didn t understand that we were in danger we watched television as usual and didn t even imagine that tomorrow would be our last day that s how it all was at the city party committee i met an acquaintance we went to school together zhanna i don t remember her last name she lives above the housewares store on narimanov street she was there with her father for some reason she doesn t have a mother the two of them were at home alone while her father held the door she jumped from the third floor and she was lucky that the ground was wet and that there wasn t anyone behind the building when she went out on the balcony there was no one there they were all standing near the entryway that building was also a lucky one in that there were no murders there she jumped she jumped and didn t feel any pain in the heat of the moment a few days later i found out that she couldn t stand up she had been injured somehow that s how people in sumgait saved their lives their honor and their children any way they could where it was possible the armenians fought back my father s first cousin armen m lives in block they found out by phone from one of the victims what was going on in town the armenians in that building all called one another immediately and all of them armed themselves with axes knives even with muskets and went up to the roof they took their infants with them and their old women who had been in bed for god knows how many months they got them right out of their beds and took everyone upstairs they hooked electricity up to the trap door to the roof and waited ready to fight then they took the daughter of the school board director hostage she s an azerbaijani who lived in their building they called the school board director and told her that if she didn t help them the armenians on the roof to escape alive and unharmed she d never see her daughter again i m sure of course that armenians would never lay a hand on a woman it was just the only thing that could have saved them at the time she called the police the armenians made a deal with the local police to go into town two armored personnel carriers and soldiers were summoned they surrounded the entryway and led everyone down from the roof and off to the side from the armored personnel carriers was a crowd that was on its way to the building at that very moment into block that s how they defended themselves i heard that our neighbors roman and sasha gambarian resisted they re big strong guys their father was killed and i heard that the brothers put up a strong defense and lost their father but were able to save their mother one of the neighbors told me that after it happened when they were looking for the criminals on march to and detaining everyone they suspected people hid people in our entryway maybe people who were injured or perhaps dead the neighbors themselves were afraid to go there and when they went with the soldiers into our basement they are supposed to have found azerbaijani corpses i don t know how many even if they had been wounded and put down there after two days they would have died from loss of blood or infection that basement was filled with water i heard this from the neighbors and later when i was talking with the investigators the subject came up and they confirmed it i know too that for several hours the basement was used to store objects stolen from our apartment and our neighbor carried out our carpet along with the rest he stole it for himself posing as one of the criminals everyone was taking his own share and the neighbor took his too and carried it home and when we came back when everything seemed to have calmed down he returned it saying that it was the only thing of ours he had managed to save raya s husband and father defended themselves the trdatovs defended themselves and so did other armenian families to be sure there were azerbaijani victims although we ll never hear anything about them for some reason our government doesn t want to say that the armenians were not just victims but that they defended the honor of their sisters and mothers too in the tv show pozitsiya viewpoint a military man an officer said that the armenians did virtually nothing to defend themselves but that s not important the truth will come out regardless so that s the price we paid those three days for three days our courage our bravery and our humanity was tested it was those three days and not the years and dozens of years we had lived before them that showed what we ve become what we grew up to be those three days showed who was who on that i will conclude my narrative on the sumgait tragedy it should be said that it s not over yet the trials are still ahead of us and the punishments received by those who so violated us who wanted to make us into nonhumans will depend on our position and on the work of the investigators the procuracy and literally of every person who lent his hand to the investiga tion that s the price we paid to live in armenia to not fear going out on the street at night to not be afraid to say we re armenians and to not fear speaking our native tongue october yerevan reference for the sumgait tragedy pogroms against armenians in soviet azerbaijan volume i eyewitness accounts edited by samuel shahmuradian forward by yelena bonner published by aristide d caratzas ny pages david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
talk.politics.mideast	re final solution for gaza dear folks i am still awaiting for some sensible answer and comment it is a fact that the inhabitants of gaza are not entitled to a normal civlized life they habe been kept under occupation by israel since without civil and political rights it is a fact that gazans live in their own country palestine gaza is not a foriegn country nor is telaviv jaffa askalon beersheba foreign country for gazans all these places are occupied as far as palestinians are concerned and as far as common sense has it it is a fact that zionists deny gazans equal rights as israeli citizens and the right to determine by themsevles their government when zionists will begin to consider gazans as human beings who deserve the same rights as themselves there will be hope for peace not before somebody mentioned that gaza is foreign country and therefore israel is entitled to close its borders to gaza in this case gaza should be entitled to reciprocate and deny israeli civilians and military personnel to enter the area as the relation is not symmetrical but that of a master and slave the label foreign country is inaccurate and misleading to close off people in the strip deny them means of subsistence and means of defending themselves is a collective punishment and a crime it is neither justifiable nor legal it just reflects the abyss to which israeli society has degraded i would like to ask any of those who heap foul langauge on me to explain why israel denies gazans who were born and brought up in jaffa to return and live there would they be allowed to if they converted to judaism is their right to live in their former town depdendent upon their religion or ethnic origin please give an honest answer elias
talk.politics.mideast	re desertification of the negev danhy as you think bedouin will be surprised by the posted article i would be happy to have some feedback from bedouin readers if you will i cannot judge the accuracy of the article but assumes that it is no fabrication any critical review would be helpful elias
talk.politics.mideast	what a hate filled newsgroup is this group for real i honestly can t believe that most of you expect you or your concerns to be taken remotely seriously if you behave this way in a forum for discussion doesn t it ever occur to those of you who write letters like the majority of those in this group that you re being mind bogglingly hypocritical
talk.politics.mideast	re israel s expansion ii in article apr donau et tudelft nl avi duteinh et tudelft nl avi cohen stuart writes from article pp a auvm american edu by paul h pimentel pp a auvm american edu what gives isreal the right to keep jeruseleum it is the home of the muslim a s well as jewish religion among others heck nobody ever mentions what yitza k shamir did forty or fifty years ago which is terrorize westerners much in the way abdul nidal does today seems isrealis are nowhere above arabs so theref ore they have a right to jerusaleum as much as isreal does there is one big difference between israel and the arabs christians in this respect israel allows freedom of religion avi avi for your information islam permits freedom of religion there is no compulsion in religion does judaism permit freedom of religion i e are non jews recognized in judaism just wondering steve
talk.politics.mideast	re pbs frontline iran and the bomb in article c lihi ccu umanitoba ca ebrahim ee umanitoba ca mohamad ebrahimi writes i would like to share with netters a few points i picked up from the pbs frontline program regarding iran s nuclear activities aired on tuesday april for the sake of brevity i ll present them in some separate points already say it the other week on cbc snoozeworld as many other western programs this program was laid on a bed of misinformation throughout the program to maximize the effect of the program on the viewer some of the misinformations were as follows yeah i thought bonanza was full of lies about the west while the number of martyrs during the sacred defense against iraqi aggression has been officially announced to be about and even most radical counter revolutionary groups claim that iran and iraq had a total of one million dead this program claims that iran alone has one million dead left from the war the translation of iranian officials talks are not true for example when iranian head of atomic energy says that it hurts me to see that iran is the subject of these unfriendly propaganda the translator says it hurts to see that iran is doing unfriendly research almost all alleged devices or material bought or planned to be bought by iranians were of countless dual usage while the program tries to undermine their non military uses without any reference to iran s big population and its inevitable need to other sources of energy in near future and its current deficit in electrical power why the hell would such an oil rich and hydroelectric potential to be exploited spend billions on a nuclear energy programme the whole program is trying to show the sharif university of technology as a nuclear research center while even the cameramen of the program know well that in a country like iran without a so tightly closed society no one can make a nuclear bomb in a university taking in account the scientific advancement of sharif u in engineering fields and its potential role in improvement of iran s industries and eventually the lives of people it is obvious that they are persuading other countries to prevent them from further helping this university or other ones in scientific and industrial efforts a key point in program s justifications is trying to disvalidate as much as possible all efforts done by iaea in their numerous visits from iran s different sites they say we are not sure if the places visited by iaea are the real ones or not or we can not rely on iaea s reports and observation because they failed to see iraq s nuclear activities before as if they didn t know that iraq was trying to build nuclear weapons yeah and we have every reason in the world to trust the iranian regime after all they ve been so forward with us in the past as an extremely personal opinion the most disgusting aspect of the program was the arrogance of the member of us senate foreign affairs william triplet in his way of talking as if he was the god talking from the absolute knowledge maybe he is god i hope all iranians be aware of the gradual buildup against their country in western media and i hope iranian authorities continue to their wise and calculated approach with regard to international affairs and peaceful coexistence with friendly nations hahahahahahaahah mohammad international atomic energy agency
talk.politics.mideast	pbs frontline documentary memory of the camps yesterday i watched an outstanding documentary on pbs prepared for frontline by the documentary consortia it is called memory of the camps and shows some un censored pictures taken immediately after the liberation of bergen belsen and other death camps i recommend it to everybody check with your pbs station for re broadcast it is a must see documentary in the seatle vancouver area ksts will re broadcast the documentary on monday am you can also order a copy from pbs video the cost is danny
talk.politics.mideast	re deir yassin in article apr cs rit edu bdm cs rit edu brendan d mckay writes in article r f ge morrow stanford edu as vxf forsythe stanford edu vic filler writes you have a lot to learn when it comes to historical methodology that s true i try to learn from people who know more than me not from useless farts and anyone who doesn t agree with you is by your own definitions a useless fart just like any text that disputes your own findings is always described as flawed or biased in other words you trumpet the things you like and dismiss those that might embarass you we ve seen you play these games here for a long time one thing is for sure when it comes to useless farts you sure know what you re talking about jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	re final solution for gaza in article igc apc org cpr igc apc org center for policy research writes the gaza strip this tiny area of land with the highest population density in the world has been cut off from the world for weeks another cpr non fact the israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of gaza some people by denying them the right to leave the strip and seek work in israel actually they are free to leave and seek work in egypt except that the egyptians don t want them either and who are you going to blame if when gazans establish their own state of gaza palestine while polish non jews risked their lives to save jews from the ghetto no israeli jew is known to have risked his life to help the gazan resistance the only help given to gazans by israeli jews only dozens of people is humanitarian assistance actually one such jew who did risk his life to help gazan arabs was hacked to death by palestinean murderers just last week it seems that the risk has been primarily from the arabs in need of help this is also true for telephone repairmen traders who seek to buy agricultural products from gazans israeli soldiers who get involved in fighting between feuding palestinean groups that are as determined to destroy each other as they are to destroy outsiders the right of the gazan population to resist occupation is recognized in international law and by any person with a sense of justice a population denied basic human rights is entitled to rise up against its tormentors i just wanna see you try this here in the usa you know what s going to happen as is known the israeli regime is considering gazans unworthy of israeli citizenship and equal rights in israel although they are considered worthy to do the dirty work in israeli hotels shops and fields many gazans are born in towns and villages located in israel they may not live there for these areas are reserved for the master race okay that s enough i m not going to read this posting of yours any further elias davidsson iceland jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	re symbiotics zionism antisemitism in article igc apc org cpr igc apc org center for policy research writes the first point to note regarding the appropriation of the history of the holocaust by zionist propaganda is that zionism without anti semitism is impossible zionism agrees with the basic tenet of anti semitism namely that jews cannot live with non jews that s why the zionists decided that zion must be gentile rein what they didn t you mean to tell me that the early zionists actually granted citizenship in the jewish state to christian and muslim people too it seems elias that your first point to note is wrong so the rest of your posting isn t worth much either ta ta jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	re gaza and separation from israel in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes the israeli left s inability to cope with the challenges it is presented with by reality becomes obvious at those moments when the reality does not line up with the expectations of the left we were able to see this clearly during the gulf war because of the palestinian s popular solidarity with iraq yossi sarid currently minister of the environment made his infamous statement you look for me i e i am not making any more efforts to speak with you from yossi sarid s point of view palestinian reality during the gulf war was not the lengthy curfew or the danger of hunger it brought with it but whether or not the palestinians accepted what was acceptable to the party similarly meretz mk deddi tzuker recently faced with criticism from residents of the west bank town of beit sahour over his government s and his party s lack of action for human rights and peace responded by asking those present at the discussion whether they would rather have a likud government from the leftists perspective this is the best government because it is their government regardless of what it does these members of the israeli left have already decided how the future of the occupied territories will look and they want to dictate to the palestinians how to get there when someone starts criticizing the leftists for not being leftist enough we get a pretty clear idea of what they believe to be normal i hope that your not still calling yourself fair and unbiased elias jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	re bb confessions in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu ahmeda mcrcim mcgill edu ahmed abu abed writes in article c hu q cg news cso uiuc edu eshneken ux cso uiuc edu edward a shnekendorf writes cl cleveland freenet edu hamaza h salah writes in a previous article friedenb sapphire egr msu edu gedaliah friedenberg says for all those interested i would like to inform all that binyamin netanyahu leader of the israeli likud party will be interviewed on cnn tonight on larry king live didn t this guy go crying on the zionist tv confessing that he committed adultary and was cheating on his wife a typical jew leader huh yes he is actually the typical muslim arab leader hides the fact that he commited adultery by choosing a camel over his husband or a small male child whichever is more readily availible cl cleveland freenet edu h a m z a ed but the irony is that the jewish population has no problem in electing a leader who has confessed to having an extra marrital affair this is a first aa what else do you expect israel is trying to portray itself as the great democracy one requirement is to have a leader who previously had an extra marital affair e g bill clinton it helps if your wife says it s ok steve
talk.politics.mideast	re more on adl spying case i don t think yigal and his friends have had as much fun for years if ever as they re getting over this adl business the publicity is likely to generate some speaker s fees too mark
talk.politics.mideast	re israel s expansion in apr nysernet org astein nysernet org alan stein writes the golan heights is a serious security problem and israel obviously will have to keep part of it and give up part of it one should remember that the golan heights had been part of the area that was to be in britain s palestine mandate slated to become part of the jewish state until britain traded it to france for other considerations in other words it is an historical accident that it was ever part of syria the palestine mandate had no borders before the borders were negotiated and drawn the most the golan may have been is on the list of what territories britian would have liked to see in the palestine mandate until the mandates came into existance there were no defined boundaries between any of the various territories in the region if you have a source for any of these claims then please present it
talk.politics.mideast	re israel s expansion in article apr das harvard edu adam endor uucp adam shostack writes in article apr vm mcgill ca b ha b ha musicb mcgill ca writes is israel s occupation of southern lebanon temporary israel has repeatedly stated that it will leave lebanon when the lebanese government can provide guarantees that israel will not be attacked from lebanese soil and when the syrians leave not acceptable syria and lebanon have a right to determine if they wish to return to the situation prior to the french invasion where they were both part of the same mandate territory read colony israel has no right to determine what happens in lebanon invading another country because you consider them a threat is precisely the way that almost all wars of aggression have started is israel s occupation of the west bank gaza and golan temporary the three are very different issues israel has stated repeatedly that it will not give up the whole golan but may be willing to give part of it to syria as part of a peace agreement again territorial expansion by force israel has already annexed areas taken over in the war these areas are not occupied but disputed since there is no legitamate governing body citizenship was given to those residents in annexed areas who wanted citizenship the un defines them as occupied they are recognised as such by every nation on earth excluding one small caribean island israel should keep control of parts of the west bank imho the parts that should be kept are the westernmost mountain ridge which contain few arab towns and many suburbs as well as overlooking the city of tel aviv the eastern mountain ridge should be abandonded this is where most of the arabs live and it is less militarily relevant israel should also maintain a presence in the jordan valley so the adam thinks that peace is possible with continued occupation and a continued military presence that is a completely unsustainable situation because the usa is bankrupt and simply cannot afford to finance the israeli ecconomy any more there is no money for such an occupation if so for those of you who support it why were so many settlers moved into the territories if it is not temporary let s hear it there are a number of reasons for people to move they were not moved but chose to move into disputed areas note that since these moves were made by free willed human beings not settlers i will address two aspects of your question why the government would allow or encourage them to move and second why they did move they were moved in as part of a deliberate policy to prevent the return of the occupied territories machiavelli described the reasoning in the prince the clear intention was to create a constituency which the likud beleived could not be deprived of the land stolen from the indigenous population the pretexts under which the settlers aquired land was through the redefinition of much land used in common as public land the assertion that the village common on which the village depends for food belongs to an invader simply because no individual has title is clearly an excuse when the land is used to build a condominium for aliens brought in to occupy the land for a foreign power there is a clear breach of the geneva convention which stipulates that land use in occupied territories must not be changed no amount of self justifying on the part of likud and hard linner appologists will change the fact that the majority of world governments and all of those that actually have any power have condemned this practice the government had a number of reasons for encouraging people to move across the green line they included security and politics the first reason was security a large jewish presense makes it difficult for terrorists to infiltrate a jewish settlements also act as fortresses in times of war theyu also are a liability we are talking about civilian encampments that would last no more than hours against tanks a second reason was political creating settlements brought the arabs to the negotiation table had the creation of new towns and cities gone on another several years there would be no place left in israel where there was an arab majority there would have been no land left that could be called arab don t fool yourself it was the gulf war that brought the israelis to the negotiating table once their us backers had a secure base in the gulf they insrtructed shamir to negotiate or else if the creation of settlements had gone on any longer the usa would have cut the money supply the fact that there are a hundered thousands jews in place changes the face of any peace settlement and restricts what land can be given away not at all they can chose to live in an arab state or return to israel some of the communites created were religious they built their neighborhoods in areas where there were jews until the riots of the s and s there are communities like this in hebron gaza and all over there are also communities built near religious sites the existence of a comunity does not give the right for another country to annexe territory not in bosnia not in the west bank the point is there are many reasons people moved over the green line and many reasons the government wanted them to whatever status is negotiated for disputed territories it will not be an all or nothing deal new boundaries will be drawn up by negotiation not be the results of a war unless the new boundaries drawn up are those of there will be no peace araffat has precious little authority to agree to anything else the real issue is not the land treaty but the trade treaty since the palestinians will remain heavily dependent on israel indefinitely it is this that will be the guarantor of peace another factor will be the return of lands confiscated by the israeli state within israel and the dismantling of the shadow structures which allow discrimination against non jews within what is nominaly a secular state the irony is that in return for a guarantee that the palestinian state has a non descrimination law in order to protect the remaining settlers the israeli state is going to be forced inot the same position this will mean outlawing of discrimination such as that which prevents arabs from buying or using much of the land phill hallam baker
talk.politics.mideast	about this center for policy research i have read numerous posts over a period of several months by this anti israel fanatic hiding in the shadow of the respectable sounding name of the center for policy research obviously it is no research center of any kind unless researching published documents to find material to use against israel makes it so labeling a propaganda mill a research center is not surprising in itself that is simply part of the propaganda process i was curious if anyone knew who this anti israel fanatic hiding behind his phoney research center name is is he an arab is he some typical anti semite hiding behind a veneer of anti zionism is he some jew who perhaps lived in israel and just couldn t make it there and is now taking his failure out on israel let s shed some light on this clown once and for all it will help put his nonsense in the proper perspective and the readers of this group who are more interested in fact than in anti israel hyperbola can ignore this junk
talk.politics.mideast	news you may have missed apr news you may have missed apr not because you were too busy but because israelists in the us media spiked it those intrepid israeli soldiers israeli soldiers have sexually taunted arab women in the occupied gaza strip during the three week long closure that has sealed palestinians off from the jewish state palestinian sources said on sunday the incidents occurred in the town of khan younis and involved soldiers of the golani brigade who have been at the centre of house to house raids for palestinian activists during the closure which was imposed on the strip and occupied west bank five days ago girls at the al khansaa secondary said a group of naked soldiers taunted them yelling come and kiss me when the girls fled the soldiers threw empty bottles at them on saturday a group of soldiers opened their shirts and pulled down their pants when they saw girls from al khansaa walking home from school parents are considering keeping their daughters home from the all girls school the same day soldiers harassed two passing schoolgirls after a youth escaped from them at a boys secondary school deputy principal srur abu jamea said they shouted abusive language at the girls backed them against a wall and put their arms around them when teacher hamdan abu hajras intervened the soldiers kicked him and beat him with the butts of their rifles on tuesday troops stopped a car driven by abdel azzim qdieh a practising moslem and demanded he kiss his female passenger qdieh refused the soldiers hit him and the year old passenger kissed him to stop the beating on friday soldiers entered the home of zamno abu ealyan blindfolded him and his wife put a music tape on a recorder and demanded they dance as the elderly couple danced the soldiers slipped away the coupled continued dancing until their grandson came in and asked what was happening the army said it was checking the reports israeli troops bar christians from jerusalem israeli troops prevented christian arabs from entering jerusalem on thursday to celebrate the traditional mass of the last supper two arab priests from the greek orthodox church led some worshippers in prayer at a checkpoint separating the occupied west bank from jerusalem after soldiers told them only people with army issued permits could enter right now our brothers are celebrating mass in the church of the holy sepulchre and we were hoping to be able to join them in prayer said father george makhlouf of the ramallah parish israel sealed off the occupied lands two weeks ago after a spate of palestinian attacks against jews the closure cut off arabs in the west bank and gaza strip from jerusalem their economic spiritual and cultural centre father nicola akel said christians did not want to suffer the humiliation of requesting permits to reach holy sites makhlouf said the closure was discriminatory allowing jews free movement to take part in recent passover celebrations while restricting christian celebrations yesterday we saw the jews celebrate passover without any interruption but we cannot reach our holiest sites he said an israeli officer interrupted makhlouf s speech demanding to see his identity card before ordering the crowd to leave if you are as revolted at this as i am drop israel s best friend email and let him know what you think compuserve com via compuserve clintonpz aol com via america online clinton hq campaign org via mci mail tell em arf sent ya if you are tired of learning about american foreign policy from what is effectively israeli controlled media i highly recommend checking out the washington report a free sample copy is available by calling the american education trust at tell em arf sent you js
talk.politics.mideast	re investment in yehuda and shomron in article horenc lduz se netcom com horen netcom com jonathan b horen writes while i applaud investing of money in yehuda shomron v chevel azza in order to create jobs for their residents i find it deplorable that this has never been an active policy of any israeli administration since with regard to their jewish residents past governments found funds to subsidize cheap read affordable housing and the requisite infrastructure but where was the investment for creating industry which would have generated income and jobs the investment was there in the form of huge tax breaks and employer benfits you are overlooking the difference that these could have made to any company part of the problem was that few industries were interested in political settling as much as profit after years yehuda and shomron remain barren bereft of even middle sized industries and the jewish settlements are sterile bedroom communities havens for in the main israelis both secular and religious who work in tel aviv or jerusalem but cannot afford to live in either city or their surrounding suburbs true which leads to the obvious question should any investment have been made there at the taxpayer s expense obviously the answer was and still is a resounding no shai guday stealth bombers os software engineer thinking machines corp the winged ninjas of the skies cambridge ma
talk.politics.mideast	re israel s expansion in article apr vm mcgill ca b ha b ha musicb mcgill ca writes just a couple of questions for the pro israeli lobby out there is israel s occupation of southern lebanon temporary for mr stein i am working on a proof for you that israel is diverting water to the jordan river away from lebanese territory yes it is as has been evidenced by the previous two stages of withdrawal from the area and by the reductions in troops currently the troops are kept at a level consistent with light and armored patrols no permanent installations have been built in the area nor are any planned as to the prodigal water question you can continue to waste your time looking for non existent proof or you can accept the testimony of people here some lebanese who have acknowledged that they know of no evidence for these allegations is israel s occupation of the west bank gaza and golan temporary if so for those of you who support it why were so many settlers moved into the territories if it is not temporary let s hear it it depends which of those territories you refer to in general settlers were moved into the territories because at the time in the context of the situations it seemed the logical move this is not to say that views don t change or that mistakes are not made currently i would say that the only disputed territory that does not appear to be temporary is that of eastern and northern jerusalem steve shai guday stealth bombers os software engineer thinking machines corp the winged ninjas of the skies cambridge ma
talk.politics.mideast	re israel s expansion because the usa is bankrupt and simply cannot afford to finance the israeli ecconomy any more there is no money for such an occupation don t fool yourself it was the gulf war that brought the israelis to the negotiating table once their us backers had a secure base in the gulf they insrtructed shamir to negotiate or else phill hallam baker oh why do you expose your ignorance the us has been running on debt for the past four generations and has still financed what it pleases and after the gulf war israel could do whatever it wanted after not decimating iraq after the scud attacks it was encouraged but by no means forced to negotiate mr baker to address all of your points would be impossible but in a nutshell it is hypocritical for you to attack israel s presence in lebanon without attacking syria syrian occupation has been hostile and amounts to annexation israel s is clearly defensive if it were not defensive you would see all of lebanon occupied and governed by israel but that is not what israel wants pete
talk.politics.mideast	re from israeli press madness before getting excited and implying that i am posting fabrications i would suggest the readers to consult the newspaper in question tahnks elias
talk.politics.mideast	unconventional peace proposal from center for policy research cpr subject unconventional peace proposal a unconventional proposal for peace in the middle east by elias davidsson the following proposal is based on the following assumptions fundamental human rights such as the right to life to education to establish a family and have children to human dignity the right to free movement to free expression etc are more important to human existence that the rights of states in the event of a conflict between basic human rights and rights of collectivities basic human rights should prevail between the collectivities defining themselves as jewish israeli and palestinian arab however labelled an unresolved conflict exists this conflict has caused great sufferings for millions of people it moreover poisons relations between communities peoples and nations each year the united states expends billions of dollars in economic and military aid to the conflicting parties attempts to solve the israeli arab conflict by traditional political means have failed as long as the conflict is perceived as that between two distinct ethnical religious communities peoples which claim the land there is no just nor peaceful solution possible love between human beings can be capitalized for the sake of peace and justice when people love they share having stated my assumptions i will now state my proposal a fund should be established which would disburse grants for each child born to a couple where one partner is israeli jew and the other palestinian arab to be entitled for a grant a couple will have to prove that one of the partners possesses or is entitled to israeli citizenship under the law of return and the other partner although born in areas under current isreali control is not entitled to such citizenship under the law of return for the first child the grant will amount to for the second the third child for each child for each subsequent child the grant will amount to for each child the fund would be financed by a variety of sources which have shown interest in promoting a peaceful solution to the israeli arab conflict including the u s government jewish and christian organizations in the u s and a great number of governments and international organizations the emergence of a considerable number of mixed marriages in israel palestine all of whom would have relatives on both sides of the divide would make the conflict lose its ethnical and unsoluble core and strengthen the emergence of a truly civil society the existence of a strong mixed stock of people would also help the integration of israeli society into the middle east in a graceful manner objections to this proposal will certainly be voiced i will attempt to identify some of these the idea of providing financial incentives to selected forms of partnership and marriage is not conventional however it is based on the concept of affirmative action which is recognized as a legitimate form of public policy to reverse the perverse effects of segregation and discrimination international law clearly permits affirmative action when it is aimed at reducing racial discrimination and segregation it may be objected that the israeli palestinian conflict is not primarily a religious or ethnical conflict but that it is a conflict between a colonialist settler society and an indigenous colonized society that can only regain its freedom by armed struggle this objection is based on the assumption that the enemy is not zionism as ideology and practice but israeli jewish society and its members which will have to be defeated this objection has no merit because it does not fulfill the first two assumptions concerning the primacy of fundamental human rights over collective rights see above fundamentalist jews would certainly object to the use of financial incentives to encourage mixed marriages from their point of view the continued existence of a specific jewish people overrides any other consideration be it human love peace of human rights the president of the world jewish congress edgar bronfman reflected this view a few years ago in an interview he gave to der spiegel a german magazine he called the increasing assimilation of jews in the world a calamity comparable in its effects only with the holocaust this objection has no merit either because it does not fulfill the first two assumptions see above it may objected that only a few people in israel palestine would request such grants and that it would thus not serve its purpose to this objection one might respond that although it is not possible to determine with certainty the effect of such a proposal the existence of such a fund would help mixed couples to resist the pressure of their respective societies and encourage young couples to reject fundamentalist and racist attitudes it may objected that such a fund would need great sums to bring about substantial demographic changes this objection has merits however it must be remembered that huge sums more than billion are expended each year by the united states government and by u s organizations to maintain an elusive peace in the middle east through armaments a mere fraction of these sums would suffice to launch the above proposal and create a more favorable climate towards the existence of mixed marriages in israel palestine thus encouraging the emergence of a non segregated society in that worn torn land i would be thankful for critical comments to the above proposal as well for any dissemination of this proposal for meaningful discussion and enrichment elias davidsson post box reykjavik iceland
talk.politics.mideast	serdar you are such a loser system fourd com phone cute quote being a computer means never having to say you re sorry
talk.politics.mideast	serdar hey serdar what are you retarded system fourd com phone cute quote being a computer means never having to say you re sorry
talk.politics.mideast	serdar what an anal retentive you are wimp system fourd com phone cute quote being a computer means never having to say you re sorry
talk.politics.mideast	re binyamin netanyahu on cnn tonight i have not seen but i guess would not liked it to me he represents the worst of both american and israeli politics but this is a matter of taste as for the famous confession it is currently believed at least by some people that all this adultry affair was just invented by him in order to impress the likkud voters and poor jealous hamazah and appear as a real man oded maler lgi imag bat d b p x grenoble france phone fax e mail maler imag fr
talk.politics.mideast	re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes in article apr ee rochester edu terziogl ee rochester edu esin terzioglu writes in article apr urartu sdpa org dbd urartu sdpa org david davidian writes armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes ermenistan kasiniyor let me translate for everyone else before the public traslation service gets into it armenia is getting itchy esin let me clearify mr turkish armenia is not getting itchy she is simply letting the world know that she will no longer sit there quiet and let turks get away with their famous tricks armenians do remember of the turkish invasion of the greek island of cypress while the world simply watched
talk.politics.mideast	get a life hey serdar what nationality are you anyway you are the supreme geek of geekdom of the usenet you are laeding a totally useless and futile life on your computer mr wimpy you are the epitamy of a coward i can predict that you will spend the rest of your useless wastefull and pitifull life on the usenet what a wasted life system fourd com phone cute quote being a computer means never having to say you re sorry
talk.politics.mideast	accounts of anti armenian human right violatins in azerbaijan accounts of anti armenian human right violatins in azerbaijan prelude to current events in nagorno karabakh there were about six burned people in there and the small corpse of a burned child it was gruesome i suffered a tremendous shock there were about ten people there but the doctor on duty said that because of the numbers they were being taken to baku there was a woman s corpse there too she had been well there was part of a body there a hacked off part of a woman s body it was something terrible deposition of roman aleksandrovich gambarian born senior engineer sumgait automotive transport production association resident at building b apartment microdistrict no sumgait azerbaijan what happened in sumgait was a great tragedy an awful tragedy for us the armenian people and for all of mankind a genocide of armenians took place during peacetime and it was a great tragedy for me personally because i lost my father in those days he was still young born in on that day february we were at home of course we had heard that there was unrest in town my younger brother aleksandr had told us about it but we didn t think we thought that everything would happen outdoors that they wouldn t go into people s apartments about five o clock we saw a large crowd near the kosmos movie theater in our microdistrict we were sitting at home watching television we go out on the balcony and see the crowd pour into mir street this is right near downtown next to the airline ticket office our house is right nearby that day there was a group of policeman with shields there they threw rocks at those policemen then they moved off in the direction of our building they burned a motorcycle in our courtyard and started shouting for armenians to come out of the building we switched off the light as it turns out their signal was just the opposite to turn on the light that meant that it was an azerbaijani home we of course didn t know and thought that if they saw lights on they would come to our apartment suddenly there s pounding on the door we go to the door all four of us there were four of us in the apartment father mother my younger brother aleksandr and i he was born in my father was a veteran of world war ii and had fought in china and in the soviet far east he was a pilot we went to the door and they started pounding on it harder breaking it down with axes we start to talk to them in azerbaijani what s going on what s happened they say armenians get out of here we don t open the door we say if we have to leave we ll leave we ll leave tomorrow they say no leave now get out of here armenian dogs get out of here by now they ve broken the door both on the lock and the hinge sides we hold them off as best we can my father and i on one side and my mother and brother on the other we had prepared ourselves we had several hammers and an axe in the apartment and grabbed what we could find to defend ourselves they broke in the door and when the door gave way we held it for another half hour no neighbors no police and no one from the city government came to our aid the whole time we held the door they started to smash the door on the lock side first with an axe and then with a crowbar when the door gave way they tore it off its hinges sasha hit one of them with the axe the axe flew out of his hands they also had axes crowbars pipes and special rods made from armature shafts one of them hit my father in the head the pressure from the mob was immense when we retreated into the room one of them hit my mother too in the left part of her face my brother sasha and i fought back of course sasha is quite strong and hot tempered he was the judo champion of sumgait we had hammers in our hands and we injured several of the bandits in the heads and in the eyes all that went on but they the injured ones fell back and others came to take their places there were many of them the door fell down at an angle the mob tried to remove the door so as to go into the second room and to continue to finish us off father brought skewers and gave them to sasha and me we flew at them when we saw father bleeding his face was covered with blood he had been wounded in the head and his whole face was bloody we just threw ourselves on them when we saw that we threw ourselves at the mob and drove back the ones in the hall drove them down to the third floor we came out on the landing but a group of the bandits remained in one of the rooms they were smashing all the furniture in there having closed the door behind them we started tearing the door off to chase away the remaining ones or finish them then a man an imposing man of about an azerbaijani came in when he was coming in father fell down and mother flew to him and started to cry out i jumped out onto the balcony and started calling an ambulance but then the mob started throwing stones through the windows of our veranda and kitchen we live on the fourth floor and no one came i went into the room it seemed to me that this man was the leader of the group he was respectably dressed in a hat and a trench coat with a fur collar and he addressed my mother in azerbaijani what s with you woman why are you shouting what happened why are you shouting like that she says what do you mean what happened you killed somebody my father was a musician he played the clarinet he played at many weddings armenian and azerbaijani he played for many years everyone knew him mother says the person who you killed played at thousands of azerbaijani weddings he brought so much joy to people and you killed that person he says you don t need to shout stop shouting and when they heard the voice of this man the to people who were in the other room opened the door and started running out we chased after them but they ran away that man left too as we were later told downstairs one of them told the others i don t know if it was from fright or what told them that we had firearms even though we only fought with hammers and an axe we raced to father and started to massage his heart but it was already too late we asked the neighbors to call an ambulance the ambulance never came although we waited for it all evening and all through the night somewhere around midnight about policemen came they informed us they were from khachmas they said we heard that a group was here at your place you have our condolences they told us not to touch anything and left father lay in the room so we stayed home each of us took a hammer and a knife we sat at home well we say if they descend on us again we ll defend ourselves somewhere around one o clock in the morning two people came from the sumgait procuracy investigators they say leave everything just how it is we re coming back here soon and will bring an expert who will record and photograph everything then people came from the republic procuracy too but no one helped us take father away the morning came and the neighbors arrived we wanted to take father away somehow we called the procuracy and the police a couple of times but no one came we called an ambulance and nobody came then one of the neighbors said that the bandits were coming to our place again and we should hide we secured the door somehow or other we left father in the room and went up to the neighbor s the excesses began again in the morning the bandits came in several vehicles zil panel trucks and threw themselves out of the vehicles like a landing force near the center of town our building was located right there a crowd formed then they started fighting with the soldiers then in buildings and that s next to the airline ticket office they started breaking into armenian apartments destroying property and stealing the armenians weren t at home they had managed to flee and hide somewhere and again they poured in the direction of our building they were shouting that there were some armenians left on the fourth floor meaning us they re up there still up there let s go kill them they broke up all the furniture remaining in the two rooms threw it outside and burned it in large fires we were hiding one floor up something heavy fell sasha threw himself toward the door shouting that it was probably father they had thrown father were defiling the corpse probably throwing it in the fire going to burn it i heard it and the sound was kind of hollow and i said no that s from some of the furniture mother and i pounced on sasha and stopped him somehow and calmed him down the mob left somewhere around eight o clock they smashed open the door and went into the apartment of the neighbors across from us they were also armenians they had left for another city the father of the neighbor who was concealing us came and said are you crazy why are you hiding armenians don t you now they re checking all the apartments they could kill you and them and to us come on leave this apartment we went down to the third floor to some other neighbors at first the man didn t want to let us in but then one of his sons asked him and he relented we stayed there until eleven o clock at night we heard the sound of motors the neighbors said that it was armored personnel carriers we went downstairs there was a light on in the room where we left father in the other rooms as we found out later all the chandeliers had been torn down they left only one bulb the bulb was burning which probably was a signal they had agreed on because there was a light burning in every apartment in our microdistrict where there had been a pogrom with the help of the soldiers we made it to the city party committee and were saved our salvation my mother s my brother s and mine was purely accidental because as we later found out from the neighbors someone in the crowd shouted that we had firearms up there well we fought but we were only able to save mother we couldn t save father we inflicted many injuries on the bandits some of them serious but others came to take their places we were also wounded there was blood and we were scratched all over we got our share it was a miracle we survived we were saved by a miracle and the troops and if troops hadn t come to sumgait the slaughter would have been even greater probably all the armenians would have been victims of the genocide through an acquaintance at the city party committee i was able to contact the leadership of the military unit that was brought into the city and at their orders we were assigned special people to accompany us experts we went to pick up father s corpse we took it to the morgue this was about two o clock in the morning it was already march it was raining very hard and it was quite cold and we were wearing only our suits when my brother and i carried father into the morgue we saw the burned and disfigured corpses there were about six burned people in there and the small corpse of a burned child it was gruesome i suffered a tremendous shock there were about ten people there but the doctor on duty said that because of the numbers they were being taken to baku there was a woman s corpse there too she had been well there was part of a body there a hacked off part of a woman s body it was something terrible the morgue was guarded by the landing force the child that had been killed was only ten or twelve years old it was impossible to tell if it was a boy or a girl because the corpse was burned there was a man there too several men you couldn t tell anything because their faces were disfigured they were in such awful condition now two and a half months have passed every day i recall with horror what happened in the city of sumgait every day my father and the death of my father and how we fought and the people s sorrow and especially the morgue i still want to say that years have passed since soviet power was established and up to the very last minute we could not conceive of what happened in sumgait it will go down in history i m particularly surprised that the mob wasn t even afraid of the troops they even fought the soldiers many soldiers were wounded the mob threw fuel mixtures onto the armored personnel carriers setting them on fire they weren t afraid they were so sure of their impunity that they attacked our troops i saw the clashes on february near the airline ticket office right across from our building and that mob was fighting with the soldiers the inhabitants of some of the buildings also azerbaijanis threw rocks at the soldiers from windows balconies even cinder blocks and glass tanks they weren t afraid of them i say they were sure of their impunity when we were at the neighbors and when they were robbing homes near the airline ticket office i called the police at number and said that they were robbing armenian apartments and burning homes and they told me that they knew that they were being burned during those days no one from the police department came to anyone s aid no one came to help us either to our home even though perhaps they could have come and saved us as we later found out the mob was given free vodka and drugs near the bus station rocks were distributed in all parts of town to be thrown and used in fighting so i think all of it was arranged in advance they even knew in which buildings and apartments the armenians lived on which floors they had lists the bandits you can tell that the operation was planned in advance thanks of course to our troops to the country s leadership and to the leadership of the ministry of defense for helping us thanks to the russian people because the majority of the troops were russians and the troops suffered losses too i want to express this gratitude in the name of my family and in the name of all armenians and in the name of all sumgait armenians for coming in time and averting terrible things worse would have happened if that mob had not been stopped on time at present an investigation is being conducted on the part of the ussr procuracy i want to say that those bandits should receive the severest possible punishment because if they don t the tragedy the genocide could happen again everyone should see that the most severe punishment is meted out for such deeds very many bandits and hardened hooligans took part in the unrest in the mass disturbances the mobs were huge at present not all of them have been caught very few of them have been i think judging by the newspaper reports there were around people near our building alone that s how many people took part in the pogrom of our building all in all they should all receive the most severe punishment so that others see that retribution awaits those who perform such acts may yerevan reference the sumgait tragedy pogroms against armenians in soviet azerbaijan volume i eyewitness accounts edited by samuel shahmuradian forward by yelena bonner published by aristide d caratzas ny pages david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
talk.politics.mideast	re unconventional peace proposal in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes from center for policy research cpr subject unconventional peace proposal a unconventional proposal for peace in the middle east by elias davidsson this could be accomplished by other criteria one must remember that children often bring stress into households as an alternative one could consider financial incentives for every sexual act performed by two partners of different ethnic backgrounds the plan could be entitled peace income sexual security or piss for short every time an israeli gets screwed by a palestinian or visa versa they would be eligible for income in keeping with the spirit of the times condoms would be a tax deductible expense this policy does not discriminate on a gender basis nor would it apply to domestic animals of either nationality joint palestinan israeli teams would be obligated to ensure that all acts were voluntary and promptly rewarded the teams of palestinian israel morals patrols or pimps would receive a percentage of the financial income in order to encourage their participation and add to their incentive in locating suitable candidates i would be thankful for critical comments to the above proposal as well for any dissemination of this proposal for meaningful shouldn t that be insemination elias davidsson post box reykjavik iceland shai guday stealth bombers os software engineer thinking machines corp the winged ninjas of the skies cambridge ma
talk.politics.mideast	re news you will miss apr arf genesis mcs com jack schmidling writes yigal et al sue adl why do you title this news you will miss there have been at least three front page stories on it in the l a times i wouldn t exactly call that a media cover up js samuel mossad special agent id media spiking mind control division los angeles offices pratice safe signature prevent dangerous signature virii guildenstern our names shouted in a certain dawn a message a summons there must have been a moment at the beginning where we could have said no but somehow we missed it
talk.politics.mideast	re was go hezbollah in article apr src honeywell com amehdi src honeywell com hossien amehdi writes the way i see it israelis and arabs have not been able to achieve peace after almost years of fighting because of the following two major reasons arab governments are not really representative of their people currently most of their leaders are stupid and or not independent and or dictators true but maybe not the worst possible see algeria israeli government is arrogant and none comprising this was true and i may add the adjective stupid until the intifada since then no serious israeli leader including shamir really thinks the the occupied territories worth the trouble the only question became the question of price and other quantitative detail the best thing the palestinians can do for themselves these days is to stop the intifada and try to live as normally as possible i know it s hard under occupation otherwise people might think that five years of stone throwing as justified as it may be has caused the palestinians an irreversible damage that prevents them from running a normal state when the time comes currently it serves no purpose and it s just a waste of human life and economic resources oded maler lgi imag bat d b p x grenoble france phone fax e mail maler imag fr
talk.politics.mideast	re news you may have missed apr in article qu op genesis mcs com arf genesis mcs com jack schmidling writes news you may have missed apr not because you were too busy but because israelists in the us media spiked it those intrepid israeli soldiers israeli soldiers have sexually taunted arab women in the occupied gaza strip during the three week long closure that has sealed palestinians off from the jewish state palestinian sources said on sunday the incidents occurred in the town of khan younis and involved soldiers of the golani brigade who have been at the centre of house to house raids for palestinian activists during the closure which was imposed on the strip and occupied west bank five days ago girls at the al khansaa secondary said a group of naked soldiers taunted them yelling come and kiss me when the girls fled the soldiers threw empty bottles at them on saturday a group of soldiers opened their shirts and pulled down their pants when they saw girls from al khansaa walking home from school parents are considering keeping their daughters home from the all girls school the same day soldiers harassed two passing schoolgirls after a youth escaped from them at a boys secondary school deputy principal srur abu jamea said they shouted abusive language at the girls backed them against a wall and put their arms around them when teacher hamdan abu hajras intervened the soldiers kicked him and beat him with the butts of their rifles on tuesday troops stopped a car driven by abdel azzim qdieh a practising moslem and demanded he kiss his female passenger qdieh refused the soldiers hit him and the year old passenger kissed him to stop the beating on friday soldiers entered the home of zamno abu ealyan blindfolded him and his wife put a music tape on a recorder and demanded they dance as the elderly couple danced the soldiers slipped away the coupled continued dancing until their grandson came in and asked what was happening the army said it was checking the reports israeli troops bar christians from jerusalem israeli troops prevented christian arabs from entering jerusalem on thursday to celebrate the traditional mass of the last supper two arab priests from the greek orthodox church led some worshippers in prayer at a checkpoint separating the occupied west bank from jerusalem after soldiers told them only people with army issued permits could enter right now our brothers are celebrating mass in the church of the holy sepulchre and we were hoping to be able to join them in prayer said father george makhlouf of the ramallah parish israel sealed off the occupied lands two weeks ago after a spate of palestinian attacks against jews the closure cut off arabs in the west bank and gaza strip from jerusalem their economic spiritual and cultural centre father nicola akel said christians did not want to suffer the humiliation of requesting permits to reach holy sites makhlouf said the closure was discriminatory allowing jews free movement to take part in recent passover celebrations while restricting christian celebrations yesterday we saw the jews celebrate passover without any interruption but we cannot reach our holiest sites he said an israeli officer interrupted makhlouf s speech demanding to see his identity card before ordering the crowd to leave if you are as revolted at this as i am drop israel s best friend email and let him know what you think compuserve com via compuserve clintonpz aol com via america online clinton hq campaign org via mci mail tell em arf sent ya if you are tired of learning about american foreign policy from what is effectively israeli controlled media i highly recommend checking out the washington report a free sample copy is available by calling the american education trust at tell em arf sent you js i took your advice and ordered a copy of the washinton report i heartily recommend it to all pro israel types for the following reasons it is an excellent absorber of excrement i use it to line the bottom of my parakeet s cage a negative side effect is that my bird now has a somewhat warped view of the mideast it makes a great april fool s joke i e give it to someone who knows nothing about the middle east and then say april fools anyway i plan to call them up every month just to keep getting those free sample magazines you know how cheap we jews are btw when you call them tell em barf sent you just kidding ben
talk.politics.mideast	re was go hezbollah in apr ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu brad hernlem wrote in article bce news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes in article apr yuma acns colostate edu bh lance colostate edu writes it is not a terrorist camp as you and the israelis like to view the villages they are small communities with kids playing soccer in the streets women preparing lunch men playing cards etc some young men usually aged between to years are members of the lebanese resistance even the inhabitants of the village do not know who these are they are secretive about it but most people often suspect who they are and what they are up to these young men are supported financially by iran most of the time they sneak arms and ammunitions into the occupied zone where they set up booby traps for israeli patrols every time an israeli soldier is killed or injured by these traps israel retalliates by indiscriminately bombing villages of their own choosing often killing only innocent civilians this a tried and true method utilized by guerilla and terrorists groups to conduct operations in the midst of the local populace thus forcing the opposing state to possible harm innocent civilians in their search or in order to avoid the deaths of civilians abandon the search certainly the people who use the population for cover are also to blaim for dragging the innocent civilians into harm s way are you suggesting that when guerillas use the population for cover israel should totally back down so the easiest way to get away with attacking another is to use an innocent as a shield and hope that the other respects innocent lives tell me tim what are these guerillas doing wrong assuming that they are using civilians for cover are they not killing soldiers in their country if the buffer zone is to prevent attacks on israel is it not working why is it further neccessary for israeli guns to pound lebanese villages why not just kill those who try to infiltrate the buffer zone you see there is more to the shelling of the villages it is called retaliation getting back getting even it doesn t make sense to shell the villages the least it shows is a reckless disregard by the israeli government for the lives of civilians please clarify your standards for rules of engagement as i understand it israelis are at all times and under all circumstances fair targets their opponents are legitimate targets only when mirandized or some such i m sure that this makes perfect sense if you grant a priori that israelis are the black hats and that therefore killing them is automatically a good thing go hezbollah the corollary is that the hezbollah are the white hats and that whatever they do is a good thing and the israelis only prove themselves to be bad guys by attacking them this sounds suspiciously like a hockey fan i know who cheers when one of the players on his team uses his stick to permanently rearrange an opponent s face and curses the ref for penalizing his side of course when it s different when the roles are reversed d c sessions speaking for myself note new network address dcs witsend tnet com author and everything else of tmail dos mail news shell
talk.politics.mideast	why does us consider yigal arens to be a dangerous to humanity in article arens apr grl isi edu arens isi edu yigal arens writes los angeles times tuesday april p a the problem if transffering us government files about yigal arens and some other similar persons does or does not violate a federal or a local american law seemed to belong to some local american law forum not to this forum the readers of this forum seemed to be more interested in the contents of those files so it will be nice if yigal will tell us why do american authorities consider yigal arens to be dangerous why does the adl have an interest in that person if one does trust either the us government or the adl what an additional information should he send them gideon ehrlich
talk.politics.mideast	re public service translation no i see that our retarded translator david is still writing things that don t make sense hey david i can see where you are may be one day we will have the chance to talk deeply about that freedom of speach of yours and you now killing or torture these things are only easy ways out i have different plans for you and all empty headeds like you lets get serious dave don t ever write bad things about turkish people or especially cyprus if i hear a word from you again that i consider to be a curse to my people i will retalliate muccccukkk timucin kaan timucin georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism gt a internet gt a prism gatech edu
talk.politics.mideast	argic i have one word for you loser system fourd com phone cute quote being a computer means never having to say you re sorry
talk.politics.mideast	re investment in yehuda and shomron in article igc apc org cpr igc apc org center for policy research writes those who wish to learn something about the perversion of judaism should consult the masterly work by yehoshua harkabi who was many years the head of israeli intelligence and an opponent of the plo his your suggestion to learn something about the perversion of judaism from someone you claim has experience in israeli intelligence and the plo is like a suggestion to learn something about the conspiracy of sesame street from someone with experience in fashion design and pizza making latest book was published in english and includes a very detailed analysis of judeo nazism judeo nazism cpr you re in a league with barf shmidling himself you can take that as a compliment if you see it that way jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	re investment in yehuda and shomron in article apr das harvard edu adam endor uucp adam shostack writes i think house jews a reference to a person of jewish ancestry who issues statements for a company or organization that condemn judaism is perfectly sufficeint i believe that cpr is himself such a house jew jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes in article apr kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes in article apr ee rochester edu terziogl ee rochester edu esin terzioglu writes cancellum let me clearify mr turkish armenia is not getting itchy she is simply letting the world know that she will no longer sit there quiet and let turks get away with their famous tricks armenians do remember of the turkish invasion of the greek island of cypress while the world simply watched it is more appropriate to address netters with their names as they appear in their signatures i failed to do so since you did not bother to sign your posting not only because it is the polite thing to do but also to avoid addressing ladies with mr as you have done secondly the island of which the name is more correctly spelled as cyprus has never been greek but rather it has been home to a bi communal society formed of greeks and turks it seems that you know as little about the history and the demography of the island as you know about the essence of turkey s military intervention to it under international agreements be that as it may an analogy between an act of occupation in history and what is going on today on azerbaijani land can only be drawn with the expansionist policy that armenia is now pursuing but i could agree that it is not for us to issue diagnoses to the political conduct of countries and promulgate them in such terminology as itchy bitchy onur yalcin
talk.politics.mideast	re how many israeli soldiers does it take to kill a yr old child in article hm apr dooley cs brown edu hm cs brown edu harry mamaysky writes steel hal gnu ai mit edu nick steel writes q how many occupying israeli soldiers terrorists does it take to kill a year old native child a four two fasten his arms one shoots in the face and one writes up a false report can nick steel provide documentation for this alleged incident probably not he s just singing someone else s opera he s good too perhaps he should get the best supporting singer i can give you a q a account that is well documented just go back and reread some of the articles that appeared after this joke q how many antisemites does it take to come up with another anti israeli provocation on the net a just one he ll fabricate a lie and many more will applaud i would much prefer if mr steel would refrain from this kind of jokes in the future they re not just offensive they also have a very negative effect on the state of things between jews and arabs so thanks for nothing clown mike
talk.politics.mideast	the futility and impotence of greek foreign policy there you go the greeks have been trying for over a year even though mr mitsotakis was threatening the ec that if macedonia was recognized that the honourable papandreou would be back well i guess the europeans pulled the plug eh theis is just one other example about the corruptness and the perversity of greek foreign policy objectives pity to those who have to live under the greek flag with these political decision makers more recognition for macedonia belgium germany and italy joined denmark on april in recognizing the republic of macedonia afp reports each is an ec member state greece which has blocked ec recognition of macedonia noted that such recognition does not facilitate negotiations between athens and skopje now underway in new york duncan perry rfe rl inc the day will come when reuters will write despite lengthy negotiations and numerous attempts to reunite the island the turkish republic of northern cyprus was recognized by your humble servant kubilay
talk.politics.mideast	re was go hezbollah brad hernlem writes well you should have noted that i was cheering an attack on an israeli patrol inside lebanese territory while i was condemning the retaliatory shelling of lebanese villages by israeli and israeli backed forces my team you see was playing fair while the opposing team was rearranging the faces of the spectators in my team s viewing stands so to speak i think that you should try to find more sources of news about what goes on in lebanon and try to see through the propaganda there are no a priori black and white hats but one sure wonders how the idf can bombard villages in retaliation to pin point attacks on its soldiers in lebanon and then call the lebanese terrorists if the attack was justified or not is at least debatable but this is not the issue the issue is that you were cheering death read again your original article you find israeli government responsible for those dead soldiers that s a reasonable debatable point but feel satisfaction from dead bodies is not reasonable by any standards no matter how you try to justify it i may understand your frustration against israeli occupation in s lebanon but no matter what you say i can not understand your satisfaction for dead bodies i have a question for you let s assume a bosnian village inhabited by serbs untill a few years ago and later taken over by bosnian muslims the means are not very peaceful now do you enjoy serbs coming and killing all armed bosnian muslims i would not enjoy but i would not enjoy any dead bodies israelis lebanese or bosnians dorin
talk.politics.mideast	re dir yassin was re no free man propaganda machine freeman with blood greetings from israel in article hm apr yoda cs brown edu hm cs brown edu harry mamaysky writes in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes check menahem begin dairies published book you ll find accounts of the massacres there including deir yassen though with the numbers of massacred men children and women are greatly minimized there is no known writing directly attributable to menachem begin which admits a massacre at deir yassin thus hasan is wrong as per request of hasan from the revolt by menachem begin dell publishing ny pp apart from the military aspect there is a moral aspect to the story of dir yassin at that village whose name was publicized throughout the world both sides suffered heavy casualties we had four killed and nearly forty wounded the number of casualties was nearly forty percent of the total number of the attackers the arab troops suffered casualties neraly three times as heavy the fighting the word troops is unjustified there has never been any evidence that there were any regular or irregular arab forces in the village apart from the villagers defending themselves according to the haganah observer pa il the irgun lehi forces suffered a lot of casualties because they were incompetent soldiers when they ran into trouble securing the central part of the village a small group of palmach soldiers came and took it without a single casualty begin s failure to even mention the palmach is only one of the major inaccuracies to use a kind word in his account incidentally three times as heavy may be correct as there is serious evidence that the arab loss was closer to lives than to the oft quoted lives however note that begin compares wounded jews to dead arabs he fails to mention the number of wounded arabs guess why was thus very severe yet the hostile propaganda disseminated throughout the world deliberately ignored the fact that the civilian population of dir yassin was actually given a warning by us before the battle began one of our tenders carrying a loud speaker was stationed at the entrance to the village and it exhorted in arabic all women children and aged to leave their houses and to take shelter on the slopes of the hill by giving this humane warning our fighters threw away the element of complete surprise and thus increased their own risk in the ensuing battle as is thoroughly established by many sources the loudspeaker truck got stuck in a ditch too far from the village for it to provide a usueful warning a substantial number of the inhabitants obeyed the warning and they were unhurt a few did not leave their stone houses perhaps because of the confusion the fire of the enemy was murderous to which the number of our casualties bears eloquent testimony our men were compelled to fight for every house to overcome the enemy they used large numbers of hand grenades and the civilians who had disregarded our warnings suffered inevitable casualties the education which we gave our soldiers throughout the years of revolt was based on the observance of the traditional laws of war we never broke them unless the enemy first did so and thus forced us in accordance with the accepted custom of war to apply reprisals i am convinced too that our officers and men wished to avoid a single unnecessary casualty in the dir yassin battle but those who throw stones of denunciation at the conquerors of dir yassin would do well not to don the cloak of hypocrisy in connection with the capture of dir yassin the jewish agency found it necessary to send a letter of apology to abdullah whom mr ben gurion at a moment of great political emotion called the wise ruler who seeks the good of his people and this country the wise ruler whose mercenary forces demolished gush etzion and flung the bodies of its heroic defenders to birds of prey replied with feudal superciliousness he rejected the apology and replied that the jews were all to blame and that he did not believe in the existence of dissidents throughout the arab world and the world at large a wave of lying propaganda was let loose about jewish attrocities the enemy propaganda was designed to besmirch our name in the result it helped us panic overwhelmed the arabs of eretz israel kolonia village which had previously repulsed every attack of the haganah was evacuated overnight and fell without further fighting beit iksa was also evacuated these two places overlooked the main road and their fall together with the capture of kastel by the haganah made it possible to keep open the road to jerusalem in the rest of the country too the arabs began to flee in terror even before they clashed with jewish forces not what happened at dir yassin but what was invented about dir yassin helped to carve the way to our decisive victories on the battlefield the legend of dir yassin helped us in particular in the saving of tiberias and the conquest of haifa it is worth noting how begin disputes the standard myth that the palestinian arabs fled as part of a calculated plan a footnote from the revolt pp to counteract the loss of dir yassin a village of strategic importance arab headquarters at ramallah broadcast a crude atrocity story alleging a massacre by irgun troops of women and children in the village certain jewish officials fearing the irgun men as political rivals seized upon this arab gruel propaganda to smear the irgun an eminent rabbi was induced to reprimand the irgun before he had time to sift the truth out of evil however good came this arab propaganda spread a legend of terror amongst arabs and arab troops who were seized with panic at the mention of irgun soldiers the legend was worth half a dozen battalions to the forces of israel the dir yassin massacre lie is still propagated by jew haters all over the world apparently of israeli historians are jew haters in reference to denunciation of dir yassin by fellow jews i have previously posted quotations by irgun participants that totally destroys begin s whitewash i have no particular desire to post it yet again brendan normally bdm cs anu edu au
talk.politics.mideast	re more on adl spying case in article arens apr grl isi edu arens isi edu yigal arens writes los angeles times tuesday april p a new details of extensive adl spy operation emerge san francisco to the outside world roy bullock was a small time art dealer who operated from his house in the castro district in reality he was an undercover spy who picked through garbage and amassed secret files for the anti defamation league for nearly years the anti defamation league a self described jewish defense and civil rights organization acknowledges it has long collected information on groups that are anti semitic extremist or racist the adl s fact finding division headed by irwinn suall in new york enjoys a reputation for thoroughness and has often shared its information with police agencies and journalists there is something almost comical in the fact that yigal arens is important enough to have the adl and g d knows who else sifting through his garbage which happens to be legal you throw it out it ain t yours any more this brings to mind a few possibilities other than the adl connection it is all in arens mind bullock may have been working for arens friend in the plo arens father or is it brother moshe arens former israeli defense minister was spying on him arens hired bullock to spy on him to get attention in any case who cares robert siegfried computer science dept saint peter s college jersey city nj siegfried r spcvxa spc edu
talk.politics.mideast	re legality of the jewish purchase amir y rosenblatt writes sam zbib writes no one in his right mind would sell his freedom and dignity palestinians are no exception perhaps you heard about anti trust in the business world since we are debating the legality of a commercial transaction we must use the laws governing the guidelines and ethics of such transactions basic anti trust law says that while you can purchase ibm stocks for the purpose of investing you can not acquire a large number of those shares with the intent or controlling ibm you can do so only if you make your intentions clear apriori clearly the jews who purchased properties from palastenians had some designs they were not buying a dwelling or a real estate they were establishing a bridgehead for the european jews the palastenians sold their properties to the jews in the old tradition of arab hospitality being a multi ethnic multi religious society accepting the jews as neighbours was no different just another religion plus they paid fair market value etc they did not know they were victims of an international conspiracy i m not a conspiracy theorist myself but this one is hard to dismiss right now i m just going to address this point when the jewish national fund bought most of its land it didn t buy it from the palestinians themselves because for the most part they were tenant farmers fallahin living on land owned by wealthy arabs in syria and lebanon the jnf offered a premium deal so the owners took advantage of it it s called commerce the owners however made no provisions for those who had worked for them basically shafting them by selling the land right out from under them they are to blame not the jews amir why would you categorize the sale of land as shafting was it because it was sold to jews was it fair to assume that the fallahin would be mistreated by the jews is this the norm of any commerce read shafting between arabs and jews your claim that the lebanese syrian landlords sold palestine if true even partially omits the fact that the mandate treaty put lebanon and syria under french rule while palestine under british obiviously any such landlord would have found himself a foreigner in palestine and would be motivated to sell regardless of the price it is interesting though that you acknowledge that the palestinians were shafted do many israelis or jews share your opinion do you absolve the purchaser from any ethical commitments just because it wasn t written down all told i did not see an answer in your response the question was whether the intent behind the purchase was aimed at controlling the public assets land infra structure etc imho the palestinians have grounds to contest the legality of the purchase say in world court sam my opinions are my own and no one else s
talk.politics.mideast	nazi eugenic theories circulated by cpr unconventianal peace now we have strong evidence of where the cpr really stands unbelievable and disgusting it only proves that we must never forget in article igc apc org cpr igc apc org center for policy research writes from center for policy research cpr subject unconventional peace proposal a unconventional proposal for peace in the middle east not so unconventional eugenic solutions to the jewish problem have been suggested by northern europeans in the past eugenics a science that deals with the improvement as by control of human mating of hereditory qualities of race or breed webster s ninth collegiate dictionary the emergence of a considerable number of mixed marriages in israel palestine all of whom would have relatives on both sides of the divide would make the conflict lose its ethnical and unsoluble core and strengthen the emergence of a truly civil society the existence of a strong mixed stock of people would also help the integration of israeli society into the middle east in a graceful manner this is nothing more than feisal husseini s statement that the zionist entity must be disolved by forcing it to engage the surrounding normal arab society a strong mixed stock integration of israeli society into the middle east in a graceful manner these are the phrases of nazi racial engineering pure and simple as if israeli society has no right to exist per se fundamentalist jews would certainly object to the use of financial incentives to encourage mixed marriages from their point of view the continued existence of a specific jewish people overrides any other consideration be it human love peace of human rights the president of the world jewish congress edgar bronfman reflected this view a few years ago in an interview he gave to der spiegel a german magazine he called the increasing assimilation of jews in the world a calamity comparable in its effects only with the holocaust this objection has no merit either because it does not fulfill the first two assumptions see above the continued existance of a specific jewish people overrides any other consideration be it human love peace of human rights disolve the jewish people and protect human values such as love and peace yes ve have heard this before her himmler notice how the source of the problem seems to be accruing to the jews in this analysis ya der spiegal ist a gut sourcen it may objected that such a fund would need great sums to bring about substantial demographic changes this objection has merits however it must be remembered that huge sums more than billion are expended each year by the united states government and by u s organizations to maintain an elusive peace in the middle east through armaments a mere fraction of these sums would suffice to launch the above proposal and create a more favorable climate towards the existence of mixed marriages in israel palestine thus encouraging the emergence of a non segregated society in that worn torn land nice attempt to mix in a slam against u s aid to israel i would be thankful for critical comments to the above proposal as well for any dissemination of this proposal for meaningful discussion and enrichment elias davidsson post box reykjavik iceland critical comment you can take the nazi flag and holocaust photos off of your bedroom wall elias you ll never succeed chris metcalfe now we ll find out where you fans really stand
talk.politics.mideast	re unconventional peace proposal in article igc apc org cpr igc apc org center for policy research writes from center for policy research cpr a unconventional proposal for peace in the middle east by elias davidsson of all the stupid postings you ve brought here recently it is illuminating that you chose to put your own name on perhaps the stupidest of them the following proposal is based on the following assumptions fundamental human rights such as the right to life to education to establish a family and have children to human dignity the right to free movement to free expression etc are more important to human existence that the rights of states does this mean that you are calling for the dismantling of the arab states in the event of a conflict between basic human rights and rights of collectivities basic human rights should prevail apparently your answer is yes attempts to solve the israeli arab conflict by traditional political means have failed attempts to solve these problem by traditional military means and non traditional terrorist means has also failed but that won t stop them from trying again after all it is a holy war you know as long as the conflict is perceived as that between two distinct ethnical religious communities peoples which claim the land there is no just nor peaceful solution possible no just solution possible how very encouraging having stated my assumptions i will now state my proposal you mean that it gets even funnier a fund should be established which would disburse grants for each child born to a couple where one partner is israeli jew and the other palestinian arab for the first child the grant will amount to for the second the third child for each child for each subsequent child the grant will amount to for each child the fund would be financed by a variety of sources which have shown interest in promoting a peaceful solution to the israeli arab conflict no the fund should be financed by the center for policy research it is a major organization isn t it isn t it the emergence of a considerable number of mixed marriages in israel palestine all of whom would have relatives on both sides of the divide would make the conflict lose its ethnical and unsoluble core and strengthen the emergence of a truly civil society yeah just like marriages among arabs has strengthened their societies the existence of a strong mixed stock of people would also help the integration of israeli society into the middle east in a graceful manner the world could do with a bit less middle eastern grace objections to this proposal will certainly be voiced i will attempt to identify some of these boy you re a one man band listen if you d like to followup on your own postings and debate with yourself just tell us and we ll leave you alone jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes in article c qu h if news iastate edu oyalcin iastate edu onur yalcin writes in article apr kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes in article apr ee rochester edu terziogl ee rochester edu esin terzioglu writes cancellum henrik let me clearify mr turkish henrik armenia is not getting itchy she is simply letting the world know henrik that she will no longer sit there quiet and let turks get away with henrik their famous tricks armenians do remember of the turkish invasion henrik of the greek island of cypress while the world simply watched onur yalcin it is more appropriate to address netters with their names as onur yalcin they appear in their signatures i failed to do so since you did onur yalcin not bother to sign your posting not only because it is the onur yalcin polite thing to do but also to avoid addressing ladies with onur yalcin mr as you have done fine please accept my opology onur yalcin secondly the island of which the name is more correctly spelled onur yalcin as cyprus has never been greek but rather it has been home to onur yalcin a bi communal society formed of greeks and turks it seems that onur yalcin you know as little about the history and the demography of the onur yalcin island as you know about the essence of turkey s onur yalcin military intervention to it under international agreements bi communal society then why did not greece invade cyprus onur yalcin be that as it may an analogy between an act of occupation in onur yalcin history and what is going on today on azerbaijani land can only onur yalcin be drawn with the expansionist policy that armenia is now pursuing buch of crap and you know it nagarno karabagh has always been part of armenia and it was stalin who gave it to the azeris go back and review the history the armenians in nagarno karabagh are simply defending their rights to keep their homeland and it is the azeris that are invading their teritory onur yalcin but i could agree that it is not for us to issue diagnoses to onur yalcin the political conduct of countries and promulgate them in such onur yalcin terminology as itchy bitchy i was not the one that stated it however i hope that the armenians will force a turkish airplane to land for purposes of searching for arms similar to the one that happened last summer turkey searched an american plane carrying humanitarian aid bound to armenia
talk.politics.mideast	re was go hezbollah in article apr ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu brad hernlem writes i think that you should try to find more sources of news about what goes on in lebanon and try to see through the propaganda thank you brad ali for warning us about the dangers of propaganda it s funny though coming from you there are no a priori black and white hats but one sure wonders how the idf can bombard villages in retaliation to pin point attacks on its soldiers in lebanon and then call the lebanese terrorists who is it that executes these pin point attacks on israelis the guys in the white hats or the ones in the black hats neither you mean that they are just civilians farmers teachers school children well maybe they are terrorists after all and maybe that propaganda was correct too hmm jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
talk.politics.mideast	re flame and a jewish home in palestine in article c hjbc hc bony bony com jake bony bony com jake livni writes in article apr newshub ariel yorku ca nabil ariel yorku ca nabil gangi writes according to exodus there were jews that marched out of egypt this is only the number of adult males the total number of jewish slaves leaving egypt was much larger the number which could have arrived to the holy lands must have been substantially less ude to the harsh desert and the killings between the jewish tribes on the way nabil typical arabic thinking if we are guilty of something so is everyone else unfortunately for you nabil jewish tribes are not nearly as susceptible to the fratricidal murdering that is still so common among arabs in the middle east there were no killings between the jewish tribes on the way i don t like this comment about typical thinking you could state your interpretation of exodus without it as i read exodus i can see a lot of killing there which is painted by the author of the bible in ideological religious colors the history in the desert can be seen as an ethos of any nomadic people occupying a land that s why i think it is a great book with which descendants arabs turks and mongols can unify as well jake jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president oded maler lgi imag bat d b p x grenoble france phone fax e mail maler imag fr
talk.politics.mideast	re israeli expansion lust in article apr news columbia edu ayr cunixa cc columbia edu amir y rosenblatt writes in article spam maths adelaide edu au jaskew spam maths adelaide edu au joseph askew writes in article apr das harvard edu adam endor uucp adam shostack writes it depends entirely on how you define war the actual fighting largely predates the arab invasions after all deir yassin happened in midapril well before the arab invasion how do you define war do seiges and constant attacks on villiages count as acts of war or is that only when the jews do them i would hope that if you intend to have a reasonable discussion you might wait until i express an opinion before deciding i should be flamed for it as for war i am not sure how i would define it if you just look at attacks on villages then there is no way of deciding when it started would you count the riots in the s and s violence but not war i personally think that war as opposed to civil disturbance or whatever requires organisation planning and some measure of regualr or semi regular forces perhaps the arab liberation army counts i could easily be convinced it was so from what i know they did not have a great deal of planning let alone organisation the haganah and palmach certainly did that is not a cause for criticism it merely reflects the great organisation generally in the zionist camp of course this isn t war since it s only the arabs attacking now you are being silly aren t you in any case the war did not start with the invasion of the arab armies you see we both agree on something and the previous posters were wrong no just like last week when the fatah launched katyusha rockets against northern israel where does uprising end and war begin again i am not sure i doubt you want my opinion anyway but i think war requires organisation as i said before it needs a group to command and plan if fatah lauches rockets from southern lebanon and are you sure you have the right group not the moslems again then that sounds like war to me stone throwing does not joseph askew joseph askew gauche and proud in the autumn stillness see the pleiades jaskew spam maths adelaide edu remote in thorny deserts fell the grief disclaimer sue see if i care north of our tents the sky must end somwhere actually i rather like brenda beyond the pale the river murmurs on
talk.politics.mideast	re was go hezbollah in article y m d witsend uucp d c sessions dcs witsend tnet com writes please clarify your standards for rules of engagement as i understand it israelis are at all times and under all circumstances fair targets their opponents are legitimate targets only when mirandized or some such i m sure that this makes perfect sense if you grant a priori that israelis are the black hats and that therefore killing them is automatically a good thing go hezbollah the corollary is that the hezbollah are the white hats and that whatever they do is a good thing and the israelis only prove themselves to be bad guys by attacking them this sounds suspiciously like a hockey fan i know who cheers when one of the players on his team uses his stick to permanently rearrange an opponent s face and curses the ref for penalizing his side of course when it s different when the roles are reversed d c sessions well you should have noted that i was cheering an attack on an israeli patrol inside lebanese territory while i was condemning the retaliatory shelling of lebanese villages by israeli and israeli backed forces my team you see was playing fair while the opposing team was rearranging the faces of the spectators in my team s viewing stands so to speak i think that you should try to find more sources of news about what goes on in lebanon and try to see through the propaganda there are no a priori black and white hats but one sure wonders how the idf can bombard villages in retaliation to pin point attacks on its soldiers in lebanon and then call the lebanese terrorists brad hernlem hernlem chess ncsu edu
talk.politics.mideast	re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes henrik henrik quayle kpc com writes the armenians in nagarno karabagh are simply defending their rights to keep their homeland and it is the azeris that are invading their territorium homeland first nagarno karabagh was armenians homeland today fizuli lacin and several villages in azerbadjan are their homeland can t you see the the great armenia dream in this with facist methods like killing raping and bombing villages the last move was the blast of a truck with kurdish refugees trying to escape the from lacin a city that was given to the kurds by the armenians however i hope that the armenians will force a turkish airplane to land for purposes of searching for arms similar to the one that happened last summer turkey searched an american plane carrying humanitarian aid bound to armenia don t speak about things you don t know american cargo planes were heading to armenia when the turkish authorities announced that they were going to search these cargo planes of these planes returned to it s base in germany of these planes were searched in turkey the content of of the other planes not hard to guess is it it was sure not humanitarian aid search turkish planes you don t know what you are talking about turkey s government has announced that it s giving weapons to azerbadjan since armenia started to attack azerbadjan it self not the karabag province so why search a plane for weapons since it s content is announced to be weapons hilmi eren dept of computer and systems sciences stockholm university sweden hilmi er dsv su se
talk.politics.mideast	re israel s expansion ii in article apr news columbia edu pgf cunixb cc columbia edu peter garfiel freeman writes in article apr vm mcgill ca b ha musicb mcgill ca b ha writes so nice of you all to answer some questions and it so nice that most of you feel that it would be in your hearts to give the palestinians some land most of you focus on the fact that israel annexed all this land and it is a kind gesture to give some of it back well i hope that after after a state run by palestinians is established the first decision should be to make jerusalem part of this state by annexing it of course steve steve if the israelis are stupid enough to allow a second palestinian state the first one is jordon then you will probably get your wish and the israelis would get what s coming to them however if the palestinians were to somehow demonstrate that they could govern themselves and live in peace with their jewish neighbors then they would have to give up the idea of jerusalem as a part of their state and you would be disappointed israel has not annexed any of the west bank just jeruselum which will remain part of israel forever yashir koach to this ben
talk.politics.mideast	re ten questions about israel in article igc apc org cpr igc apc org center for policy research writes from center for policy research cpr subject ten questions about israel ten questions to israelis i would be thankful if any of you who live in israel could help to provide accurate answers to the following specific questions these are indeed provocative questions but they are asked time and again by people around me i lived there until july so i think that on the whole my input is relevant is it true that the israeli authorities don t recognize israeli nationality and that id cards which israeli citizens must carry at all times identify people as jews or arabs not as israelis those are two separate questions obviously israeli authorities do recognize israeli nationality for some purposes e g passports consular services etc id cards have a field of nationality which is a subdivision of the above ostensibly this field is provided for sevices provided by the religious departments of the gov t though this is not the general case is it true that the state of israel has no fixed borders and that israeli governments from until today have refused to state where the ultimate borders of the state of israel should be from its onset israel s borders have been shaped and reshaped by both war and peace as such the israeli gov t has always felt that defining its borders is a step that is meaningful only after peace treaties have been conluded with its neighbors there is no plan for ultimate borders is this a game like ultimate frisbee extending into other countries is it true that israeli stocks nuclear weapons if so could you provide any evidence aside from what vaanunu provided no is it true that in israeli prisons there are a number of individuals which were tried in secret and for which their identities the date of their trial and their imprisonment are state secrets if that is true then by virtue of the question s subject it is unanswerable anyone who claims its validity is claiming an oxymoron that having been said i deny the above you go on to ask quite a number of questions that show an obvious bias questions of the sort is it true that you entered your mother s vagina which are based upon some kernel of truth though phrased in a way as to render them repugnant and cast aspersions upon israel incidentally the answer to the above is usually yes unless you were born via a c section shai guday stealth bombers os software engineer thinking machines corp the winged ninjas of the skies cambridge ma
talk.politics.mideast	re was go hezbollah in article apr unocal com stssdxb st unocal com dorin baru writes brad hernlem writes well you should have noted that i was cheering an attack on an israeli patrol inside lebanese territory while i was condemning the retaliatory shelling of lebanese villages by israeli and israeli backed forces my team you see was playing fair while the opposing team was rearranging the faces of the spectators in my team s viewing stands so to speak i think that you should try to find more sources of news about what goes on in lebanon and try to see through the propaganda there are no a priori black and white hats but one sure wonders how the idf can bombard villages in retaliation to pin point attacks on its soldiers in lebanon and then call the lebanese terrorists if the attack was justified or not is at least debatable but this is not the issue the issue is that you were cheering death dorin dorin of all the criticism of my post expressed on t p m this one i accept i regret that aspect of my post it is my hope that the occupation will end and the accompanying loss of life but i believe that stiff resistance can help to achieve that end despite what some have said on t p m i think that there is a point when losses are unacceptable the strategy drove u s troops out of lebanon at least brad hernlem hernlem chess ncsu edu
talk.politics.mideast	re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes in article apr kth se hilmi er dsv su se hilmi eren writes henrik the armenians in nagarno karabagh are simply defending their henrik rights to keep their homeland and it is the azeris that are henrik invading their homeland he homeland first nagarno karabagh was armenians homeland today he fizuli lacin and several villages in azerbadjan he are their homeland can t you see the he the great armenia dream in this with facist methods like he killing raping and bombing villages the last move was the he blast of a truck with kurdish refugees trying to he escape the from lacin a city that was given to the kurds he by the armenians nagorno karabakh is in azerbaijan not armenia armenians have lived in nagorno karabakh ever since there were armenians armenians used to live in the areas between armenia and nagorno karabakh and this area is being used to invade nagorno karabakh armenians are defending themselves if azeris are dying because of a policy of attacking armenians then something is wrong with this policy if i recall correctly it was stalin who caused all this problem with land in the first place not the armenians henrik however i hope that the armenians will force a turkish airplane henrik to land for purposes of searching for arms similar to the one henrik that happened last summer turkey searched an american plane henrik carrying humanitarian aid bound to armenia he don t speak about things you don t know u s cargo planes he were heading to armenia when the turkish authorities he announced that they were going to search these cargo he planes of these planes returned to it s base in germany he of these planes were searched in turkey the content of he of the other planes not hard to guess is it it was sure not he humanitarian aid what story are you talking about planes from the u s have been sending aid into armenian for two years i would not like to guess about what were in the planes in your story i would like to find out he search turkish planes you don t know what you are talking about he turkey s government has announced that it s giving weapons he to azerbadjan since armenia started to attack azerbadjan he it self not the karabag province so why search a plane for weapons he since it s content is announced to be weapons it s too bad you would want turkey to start a war with armenia
talk.politics.mideast	re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes in article apr iastate edu oyalcin iastate edu onur yalcin writes in article apr kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes in article c qu h if news iastate edu oyalcin iastate edu onur yalcin oy henrik oy your ignorance manifests itself in an awkward form of intransigence i m not oy going to spend time to review with you the recent history of cyprus good go back to your references and read it over and over oy if you are really interested i can provide you with a number of references oy on the issue just send me email for that you think i am that stupid to ask you for references not i have many greek friends that i could ask for the info if i needed i have already read many articles and do not need your help boy how generous oy relax you re swinging fists into open air i was agreeing with you oy assuming that would be one of your points that you did not state you may oy not be very much used to it to be agreed with that is but take it more oy easily believe me i am so relaxed henrik however i hope that the armenians will force a turkish airplane henrik to land for purposes of searching for arms similar to the one oy no henrik believe me you don t hope that if armenia is goint to do that then so be it henrik that happened last summer turkey searched an american plane henrik carrying humanitarian aid bound to armenia oy was that after or before one french plane changed its route to avoid oy inspection all i am saying is that the plane that was searched was an american and why turkey did not trust the u s that it was mainly humanitarian aid cargo
talk.politics.mideast	re news briefs from kh farzin apollo ntt jp farzin mokhtarian writes from kayhan havai o dr malekzadeh the minister of health mentioned that the population growth rate in iran at the end of went below i know nothing about statistics but what significance does the relatively small population growth rate have where the sampling period is so small at the end of is it adequete to suggest a trend or is it just noise farzin mokhtarian mack
talk.politics.mideast	remember those names come election time in article christopheru ak pe clarinet com clarinews clarinet com sid balman jr writes washington upi secretary of state warren christopher said tuesday there are better ideas to stop the human slaughter in the balkans than ordering american fighters to bomb the serbs but a frustrated senator told him to do just that we ve not done a damn thing sen joseph biden d del told christopher at a hearing of the senate foreign relations committee preventive diplomacy is not in your capability right now in bosnia herzegovina biden chastised the administration and its republican predecessor for what he characterized as a limp response to the serbian policy of ethnic cleansing of muslims including rape and shelling of civilians the time has come for us and the world to stop bemoaning the fact that all the options are bad ones biden said they are all bad ones and we ought to pick a couple biden also endorsed lifting an international arms embargo against the former yugoslavia so the muslim dominated bosnian government might have a chance to at least defend itself against the serbs christopher said this could give an opening role in the conflict to the radical islamic government of iran o i c biden endorsed bombing serbian heavy weapons around the besieged eastern town of srebrenica there s not a military person who will not tell you that they could today if you gave them the order take out the heavy weaponry around srebrenica biden said if you did nothing else nothing else but that you would have saved hundreds of women and children who are being absolutely massacred right now military action is the only thing that s going to change the equation biden said despite the frustrations and pressure christopher had no enthusiasm for american combat aircraft to strike serb positions in bosnia herzegovina clearly we are at a turning point in the bosnia situation christopher said air strikes are among those steps that are so complex because they tend to interfere with the humanitarian endeavours i think there may be better options humanitarian as in feeding them and let them get raped and killed political conflict clinton vowed during the presidential campaign to then lift the arms embargo and to strike at serbian heavy weapons with u s combat aircraft christopher said airstrikes would likely increase the level of now fighting and cause our allies to draw back or even pull out the humanitarian effort great britain and france have balked at foreign military intervention in bosnia herzegovina for fear that their peacekeeping troops on the ground may suffer serbian retribution why don t they get the hell out of there they ared doing nothing to protect the victims anyway maybe becasue they have a different agenda sen nancy kassebaum r kan seemed to agree with christopher s assessment and stressed the need not to build up bosnian expectations for heavy u s military intervention it s very important that expectations aren t raised high on the part of the beleagured bosnians she said air strikes might have made a difference eight months ago she said but the strategic significance of that step now is questionable like christopher kassebaum said it might jeopardize the humanitarian relief effort now that they made sure the bosnian who were the only real subject of the embargo last year as everybody knows that the serbs had an unlimited supply of arms wre massacred without having a chance to defend themselves now this evil coldhearted snake is saying it is too late to save them so let them die
talk.politics.mideast	re news you will miss apr arf genesis mcs com jack schmidling writes in article qun ainnik aludra usc edu sgoldste aludra usc edu fogbound child writes arf genesis mcs com jack schmidling writes yigal et al sue adl why do you title this news you will miss there have been at least three front page stories on it in the l a times i wouldn t exactly call that a media cover up this may come as a surprise to you but there are a few americans who do not read the la times is this the same monolithic centrally controlled media that you re always talking about do you mean to tell me that the la times is the only major paper to buck the media spiking division s activities the defamation league has done a first class job of damage control in what little is left of the world outside of la assumption when one major newspaper prints three or more articles on the front page regarding subject matter that is not strictly local this is likely to be considered an open story and not a coverup let s hear a roll call here anyone outside of the la area seen articles on this js samuel mossad special agent id media spiking mind control division los angeles offices therefore evidently incompetent pratice safe signature prevent dangerous signature virii guildenstern our names shouted in a certain dawn a message a summons there must have been a moment at the beginning where we could have said no but somehow we missed it
talk.politics.mideast	re syria s expansion in article c qhya gn dscomsa desy de hallam zeus desy de writes in article apr das harvard edu adam endor uucp adam shostack writes in article apr vm mcgill ca b ha b ha musicb mcgill ca writes is israel s occupation of southern lebanon temporary israel has repeatedly stated that it will leave lebanon when the lebanese government can provide guarantees that israel will not be attacked from lebanese soil and when the syrians leave not acceptable syria and lebanon have a right to determine if they wish to return to the situation prior to the french invasion where they were both part of the same mandate territory read colony and lebanon has a right to make this decision without syrian troops controlling the country until syria leaves and free elections take place its is rediculous to claim that the lebanese would even be involved in determining what happens to their country israel has no right to determine what happens in lebanon invading another country because you consider them a threat is precisely the way that almost all wars of aggression have started i expect you will agree that the same holds true for syria having no right to be in lebanon israel has already annexed areas taken over in the war these areas are not occupied but disputed since there is no legitamate governing body citizenship was given to those residents in annexed areas who wanted citizenship the un defines them as occupied they are recognised as such by every nation on earth excluding one small caribean island the un also thought zionism is racism that fails to make it true the first reason was security a large jewish presense makes it difficult for terrorists to infiltrate a jewish settlements also act as fortresses in times of war theyu also are a liability we are talking about civilian encampments that would last no more than hours against tanks they lasted weeks against tanks in and stopped those tanks from advancing they also lasted days in there is little evidence for the claim that they are military liabilities they evidence is there to show that when infiltrations take place over the jordan river the existance of large patrolled kibutzim forces terrorists into a very small area where they are usually picked up in the morning a second reason was political creating settlements brought the arabs to the negotiation table had the creation of new towns and cities gone on another several years there would be no place left in israel where there was an arab majority there would have been no land left that could be called arab don t fool yourself it was the gulf war that brought the israelis to the negotiating table once their us backers had a secure base in the gulf they insrtructed shamir to negotiate or else nonsense israel has been trying to get its neighbors to the negotiating table for years it was the gulf war that brought the arabs to the table not the israelis the point is there are many reasons people moved over the green line and many reasons the government wanted them to whatever status is negotiated for disputed territories it will not be an all or nothing deal new boundaries will be drawn up by negotiation not be the results of a war unless the new boundaries drawn up are those of there will be no peace araffat has precious little authority to agree to anything else nonsense according to arafat israel must be destroyed he has never come clean and denied that this is his plan he always waffles on what he means when the arabs set off their volcano there will only be arabs in this part of the world our people will continue to fuel the torch of the revolution with rivers of blood until the whole of the occupied homeland is liberated yasser arafat ap adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
talk.politics.mideast	re unconventional peace proposal in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes the idea of providing financial incentives to selected forms of partnership and marriage is not conventional however it is based on the concept of affirmative action which is recognized as a legitimate form of public policy to reverse the perverse effects of segregation and discrimination other people have already shown this to be a rediculous proposal however i wanted to point out that there are many people who do not think that affirmative action is a either intelligent or productive it is demeaning to those who it supposedly helps and it is discriminatory any proposal based on it is likely bunk as well adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
talk.politics.mideast	who should be spied on in article c sdck n news cso uiuc edu eshneken ux cso uiuc edu edward a shnekendorf writes anwar cs cmu edu anwar mohammed writes in article bimacs bitnet ehrlich bimacs bitnet gideon ehrlich writes the readers of this forum seemed to be more interested in the contents of those files so it will be nice if yigal will tell us why do american authorities consider yigal arens to be dangerous adl authorities seem to view a lot of people as dangerous including the millions of americans of arab ancestry perhaps you can answer the question as to why the adl maintained files and spied on adc members in california and elsewhere friendly rivalry perhaps come on most if not all arabs are sympathetic to the palestinian war against israel that is why the adl monitors arab organizations that is the same reason the us monitored communist organizations and soviet nationals only a few years ago the adc is an organization of arab americans let me see you re saying that most if not all arab americans should be spied on you re also saying that most if not all arab americans should be views as a national security threat to israel and the us as you gratuitously imply in your reference to the wtc bombing in which no arab americans were involved by inference can we assume that you think that anyone of arab lineage anywhere in the world poses a threat to israel and therefore should be spied on perhaps then on the basis of pollard spy case not to mention the rosenbergs etc you think that all jewish americans should be spied on by the adc oh never mind this whole spying case has obviously so convoluted your sense of right or wrong in these matters that i have no wish confuse you further perhaps yigal is a greenpeace member or the naacp or a reporter or a member of any of the dozens of other political organizations ethnic minorities occupations that the adl spied on all of these groups have in the past associated with or been a part of anti israel activity or propoganda the adl is simply monitoring them so that if anything comes up they won t be caught by surprise so the la times reporter who had information about him sold to the south african government was involved in anti israel activity or propaganda are we to infer that the simple act of reporting an event in a newspaper constitutes anti israel activity or propaganda or was it south africa the la times reporter was based in south africa after all gideon ehrlich anwar ed anwar again
talk.politics.misc	re media horrified at perot investigating bush visser convex com lance visser writes i can t find my source but if you state that you will retract your claim i ll go dig one up at the library fair enough are you serious i m not talking about retracting anything until you have produced something if you were not just talking off the top of your head i would assume that you have some memory of what your source is put up now without conditions yes very serious i claim that i can substantiate my statement that rudman says he doesn t believe perot was investigating him you claim perot was investigating him if you will state that you were in error on this point provided i produce the source i ll go dig it up now give me one reason why i should go to the trouble if you won t agree to this it is simple enough you know but i don t have time to waste if you ll just blow it off with more of the tripe you usually post michael pye email mpye csupomona edu
talk.politics.misc	re damn ferigner s be taken over in c v w dup apollo hp com nelson p apollo hp com peter nelson writes in article bob cos bob cos com bob blackshaw writes in c ruo r apollo hp com nelson p apollo hp com peter nelson writes norway where you appear to be posting from is just such a place although it has always escaped my understanding just what the appeal to allegedly rational people of such a scheme might be what gives king olav v or whoever it is now my atlas is from the right to any special legal status or title based on a mere accident of birth to begin with it s quite inexpensive compared to here what with our having six former presidents still alive drawing pensions expense accounts and secret service protection maybe so but they were after all president in the corporate world it s sop for retiring senior executives to be given nice pensions etc the point is that they performed a service and this is part of the compensation package the only service royals have to perform for their free ride is being born we might be better off had some of our former presidents done nothing peter ps which is not to say that some of our presidents have not provided a service for the country too dissimilar from what occurs when a bull services a cow for those of you familiar with cattle breeding
talk.politics.misc	re bill conklin s letter to a j in article apr colorado edu ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu a j teel writes again the main point no human being not yet born can be bound to any contract wrong it s possible to inherit a debt further no third party can be bound to any contract that they are not a party to see above the constitution for the united states is just such a contract no third party can be bound to it further no human who is not specifically mentioned in article and has not taken an oath or made an affirmation to uphold said const can be bound to uphold or obey it the constitution is not a contract it is a statute please mr teel or anyone show me one case where the u s constitution or any state constitution is considered a contract the const is designed to limit the powers of government not to bind the people it is also designed to delineate the powers of the u s government this argument will be presented in great detail in the next post i can t wait daniel reitman how not to write a deed one case involved the construction of a conveyance to grantees jointly as tenants in common with equal rights and interest in said land and to the survivor thereof in fee simple to have and to hold the same unto the said parties hereto equally jointly as tenants in common with equal rights and interest for the period or term of their lives and to the survivor thereof at the death of the other the court held that the survivorship provision indicated an intent to create a joint tenancy germain v delaine ala so d
talk.politics.misc	re traffic case in article apr colorado edu ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu a j teel writes the mcdonald case was dismissed in the interests of justice on whose authority do you have this and on what grounds was it dismissed daniel reitman how not to write a deed one case involved the construction of a conveyance to grantees jointly as tenants in common with equal rights and interest in said land and to the survivor thereof in fee simple to have and to hold the same unto the said parties hereto equally jointly as tenants in common with equal rights and interest for the period or term of their lives and to the survivor thereof at the death of the other the court held that the survivorship provision indicated an intent to create a joint tenancy germain v delaine ala so d
talk.politics.misc	re winning tax case in article d t infoserv com jamesdon infoserv com james a donald writes the tax protesters are legally correct but they are put in jail anyway hello what the sloan decision means is that the tax protestors were wrong the weakness of the governments legal position is shown by the fact that when someone protesting tax or gun laws on legal grounds gets a federal jury trial very rare the feds blatantly stack the jury with the same old faces turning up time after time demonstrate please the rules of procedure make this very unlikely however teel should have mentioned that though his advice is legally sound if you follow it you will probably wind up in jail for discussion purposes only which makes it legally unsound if i were representing mr teel i d try a procedural approach if i could find one or recommend he plea bargain he s setting himself up to be in hot water daniel reitman how not to write a deed one case involved the construction of a conveyance to grantees jointly as tenants in common with equal rights and interest in said land and to the survivor thereof in fee simple to have and to hold the same unto the said parties hereto equally jointly as tenants in common with equal rights and interest for the period or term of their lives and to the survivor thereof at the death of the other the court held that the survivorship provision indicated an intent to create a joint tenancy germain v delaine ala so d
talk.politics.misc	a demo of nonsense talk and what about all the other lies in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes homosexuals have been lying about the number for so long that the politicians are running scared of them of course homosexuals lying should be no surprise how can you lie about something that no one knows for sure i am the first to state that the figure may be too high but it may just be too low depending on what you are talking about keep in mind that there are practicing heterosexuals that are actually gay these people chose to take a road that avoids being harassed and they wanted to fit in with everyone other normal person but let s get off of this irrational behavior of calling everyone a liar you cannot even start to support such claims also the corrupt criminal and lying nature of kinsey s work which provides much of the justification for homosexual rights in the modern era should make people step back for a moment and question the rest of the crap that they have been force fed by the news media this sure sounds definitive how do you label kinsey s work like this from that factually based and scientific journal wsj relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all this is an interesting statement do you realize how many things you do your life that are not based on mutual consent and that it may be required on occasion that all parties may not be mutually consenting this
talk.politics.misc	re the evidence in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes in article bu edu kane buast bu edu hot young star writes in article cjkc mcwp ox netcom com cjk netcom com writes if homosexuals did keep themselves in the privacy of their own home this wouldn t be a problem however there are various cliques sp that don t they want to present the argument that it is just as moral and right as heterosexuality you know i m offended by newspapers publicly announcing weddings heterosexuals should keep their nutpials out of the public eyes they should be banned from wearing wedding rings from having legal recognition of marriage anything that s public and sexual don t mix the difference of course is that we are right and you are wrong if you are a minority that wants freedom it helps to not be obnoxious about it it does not surprise me that as groups like translation you minorities stay in predesignated areas we the majority are right anything you do is wrong since might makes right and the majority always rules queer nation become increasingly belligerent in their public demonstrations that violence against homosexuals rises anything that reminds the crazies who like to beat up homosexuals of their presence is going to aggravate things oh crime prevention at its best well let s extrapolate this maybe if you didn t display all of your private property then those nasty theifs wouldn t go after it and don t carry any money that way those muggers won t bother you and you still don t realize that either way it is says that homosexuals are very dangerous to children so tell me what s immoral about homosexuality the promiscuity and fetishism that characterizes it the sexual predatory component that glorifies the pursuit of candy ass and hairless cocks in the words of le jojo the typical homosexual oh i did not know that le jojo is a typical homosexual stop making statements about something you know nothing about that is gay people you make your sweeping generalizations with no grounding in reality what i hope is not true that you are a typical heterosexual anyone want to comment on this and if you are typical then i can start extrapolating a lot of interesting conjectures about heterosexuals
talk.politics.misc	re news you may have missed in article pprtvinnctl aludra usc edu sgoldste aludra usc edu fogbound child writes arf genesis mcs com jack schmidling writes in article apr rapnet sanders lockheed com babb k scott babb writes jack schmidling arf genesis mcs com wrote jac y virginia edu jonathan a cook jac y writes why do you restrict your condemnation of racial strife to israel do the situations in bosnia tibet china etc not merit your comment as far as i am aware we have not sent close to billion dollars to let s not exaggerate i notice you did not offer an alternative number try this one on for size by the year american taxpayers will have given israel one dollar for every star in the milky way galaxy i will let you look up the number
talk.politics.misc	re winning tax case dreitman oregon uoregon edu daniel r reitman attorney to be writes which makes it legally unsound if i were representing mr teel i d try a procedural approach if i could find one or recommend he plea bargain he s setting himself up to be in hot water indeed reading the cases of people who ve tried the various things mr teel suggests show that defendants fall into two classes those who win on procedural grounds or some grounds not related to their claim and those who lose consider newman v schiff f d th cir which i ve seen cited by tax protestors other than mr teel as a win for mr schiff mr schiff offered on tv to anyone who would call in the show and cite any section of the internal revenue code that says that an individual has to file a return mr newman took him up on it mr newman had seen the show in a rebroadcast the next morning mr schiff claimed that the offer only extended to people who actually say the original broadcast and so there was no offer for mr newman to accept and so no unilateral contract was formed and so mr schiff did not have to pay mr schiff was correct and so won so yes mr schiff won against a claim on the reward however his win had nothing to do with the tax code tim smith
talk.politics.misc	re california insurance commissioner endorses federal legislation to protect consumers from scam insurance companies rick sjsumcs sjsu edu richard warner writes very simple an insurance commissioner is a bureaucrat a regulator it is his her duties to make rules to enforce laws and to make life difficult for us actuaries michael d adams starowl a i rahul net champaign il southeast al thrush believes in the two party system the masters and the slaves napoleon solo from the man from u n c l e
talk.politics.misc	re sick and tired was re bill conklin et al s letter in article apr mks com richw mks com rich wales writes why can t you just cite us a case in which joe schmoe a regular employee earning regular wages from a regular company refuses to pay his income tax gets hauled into court is convicted of wilful tax eva sion and then has his conviction overturned by the us supreme court with a landmark majority ruling that income tax is indeed totally voluntary what you say no such case exists hmmm i wonder why not why haven t you unless i ve got my notes mixed up f d comes close to this regular guy blue collar worker at a regular company hauled into court convicted appeals to th circuit makes all the right arguments his brief is cited by mr teel as an example of a winning brief shot down zip by the th circuit appeals to the supreme court and certiorari denied defendant goes to jail oh well tim smith
talk.politics.misc	re top ten reasons not to aid russians in article c fnh cvo news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes with a tip of the hat to david letterman for making the top ten format so popular top ten reasons that conservatives don t want to aid russia looking around who where don t look at me i want to send aid to russia many other conservatives do as well julie disclaimer all opinions here belong to my cat and no one else
talk.politics.misc	re who be conservative on this in apr rotag mi org kevin rotag mi org kevin darcy writes congress is not allowed to abrogate the constitutional rights and privileges already enjoyed by persons however unless the abrogation has a rational reason or a compelling interest to it depending on which standard is applied this is relevant because granting a right to one class of persons by definition always impinges on the rights of another class or classes or persons to some degree in the case of abortion establishing rights for the unborn impinges greatly on the rights of pregnant women there has yet to be presented a sufficient justification for such fetal rights not to your satisfaction but the arguments have convinced me and others mob rule isn t any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government it ain t charity if you are using someone else s money wilson s theory of relativity if you go back far enough we re all related mark wilson atlantaga ncr com
talk.politics.misc	re rodney king trial civil rights violations double jeopardy in apr husc harvard edu spanagel husc harvard edu david spanagel writes recently it s occured to me that i ve never heard of any person ever being tried in federal court for violating someone s civil rights of course there have been cases before the supreme court in which it was decided that someone s civil rights had been violated e g miranda escobedo etc but institutions were de facto the defendants not individuals am i mistaken have there been similar cases against individuals in the past i know it was used several times in the south to prosecute the murders of blacks after all white juries had cleared the accussed furthermore what are the specific charges against the four lapd officers which civil rights or laws are they accused of violating i believe it is a general charge that is no specific right is mentioned what about double jeopardy has there been any concern that a verdict against koon et al might be overturned upon appeal because they re being tried again for the same actions i thought i heard something on the news about this the ss has previously ruled that since the seperate governments were in essence seperate sovereigns then double jeopardy does not apply if this is true then could defendents also be tried under city and county governments this mornings paper said that the aclu has decided to reinstate its opposition to this kind of thing they had earlier suspended their opposition while they examined the king case there might be hope for the aclu after all mob rule isn t any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government it ain t charity if you are using someone else s money wilson s theory of relativity if you go back far enough we re all related mark wilson atlantaga ncr com
talk.politics.misc	re why is tax evasion not considered unpatriotic in apr hemlock cray com rja mahogany cray com ben s dad writes in article c tauw mrz ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com mark wilson writes in article pasrg ife s gov lip s gov loren i petrich writes the title is self explanatory isaac asimov once pointed out that curious fact are you saying that it should be considered unpatriotic if you do not give everything you own to the state are you saying that it should be considered unpatriotic if you do not give your life in battle for the state the pc patrioticly correct certainly think so i thought that kind of system collapsed when the soviet union did no the pentagon is still standing and collecting names for the draft if that s not what you meant at what point does paying more taxes cease being patriotic your money or your life which is more important nice dodge i give it a now to answer your questions i do not believe that there should be a draft the armed services should be voluntary can you say the same about taxes i ve answered your question would you now answer mine mob rule isn t any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government it ain t charity if you are using someone else s money wilson s theory of relativity if you go back far enough we re all related mark wilson atlantaga ncr com
talk.politics.misc	re winning tax case do you have a strange definition of winning that you titled this thread winning tax case sloan lost by a unanimous decision that tore his arguments to pieces he went to prison using these arguments see united states v sloan f d th cir aff g f supp the tax protesters are legally correct but they are put in jail anyway the weakness of the governments legal position is shown by the fact that when someone protesting tax or gun laws on legal grounds gets a federal jury trial very rare the feds blatantly stack the jury with the same old faces turning up time after time however teel should have mentioned that though his advice is legally sound if you follow it you will probably wind up in jail james a donald joseph stalin said ideas are more powerful than guns we would not let our enemies have jamesdon infoserv com guns why should we let them have ideas
talk.politics.misc	re supply side economic policy was re david stockman in article ufk gqu wbke cx v andrew cmu edu ashish andrew cmu edu ashish arora writes excerpts from netnews sci econ apr re supply side economic po by not a boomer desire wrig the deficits declined from reaching a low of of gnp before the tax and spending hike of reversed the trend brett is this true some more details would be appreciated cheers actually not brett himself has actually posted the data previously what declined from to as i remember it was percent increase in deficit growth i e the rate of growth of the deficit nd derivative of total deficit with respect of to time decreased brett apparently has numbed himself into thinking that the deficit declined if you keep spending more than you earn the deficit keeps growing if you keep borrowing at a lesser rate than you borrowed previously the deficit increases you only decrease deficits when your income exceeds spending and you use the difference to pay off debts figgie s book paints the real data pictorially in gory detail each president essentially ran up twice as much total debt in half the time reagan congress was simply awful bush congress was unbelievable as a really rigorous aside to this thread during pledge night the other night on the public channel there was an economist who gave an hour or so presentation his data was predictive and based largely on population data i don t know his name but his arguments were brilliant he confirmed with data what many of us know with common sense the boom of the s has nothing to do with government policy particularly supply side policy since taxes do not cause economic activities people cause economic activity more can be explained by watching population waves roll through the years and create cycles he has made models and predictions for years well into the middle of next century it will be neat to see how accurate he is paul collacchi
talk.politics.misc	re top ten reasons not to aid russians wasn t it tricky dick who issued stern warnings to bush clinton not to lose russia a la who lost china
talk.politics.misc	re price controls for medical care was re we re from the govt in article slagle apr sgi msd lmsc lockheed com slagle lmsc lockheed com writes in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes thanks to kim for following up i was hoping that someone would bring up the issue of cost compensation the problem with the argument is that it fails to explain why kidney dialysis rd services have expanded massively in the last decade after all no one is forcing private providers to offer this service if they are losing money on the treatment which according to information i ve collected from several providers they are not why would they not simply limit their losses by cutting back on services engage in effective rationing of supply rather than expand the coverage to a larger market that must then be compensated by raising prices in other areas perhaps there is a competitive advantage in there after all would not reputable and dedicated physicians prefer to affiliate with an institution that offers dialysis services would they not therefore tend to admit patients in greater numbers to an institution that offered a full range of diagnostic and treatment options undoubtedly in fact it is the fact that hospitals frequently compete for physicians rather than for patients that in part complicates and undermines a simplistic free market analysis of the market for medical care hospitals tend to lose money on all sorts of high tech high price machinery they manage to make it up on other charges once again there is no evidence that this is true in regard to kidney dialysis although price controls have promoted an expansion of services to a much greater volume of patients rd is still a profitable service otherwise one would expect to see evidence of rationing rather than the vast expansion that has occurred remember the notion that you can lose a little on each treatment but make it up in volume is not good economics even in a free market then how do you explain why grocery stores routinely offer an array of products at prices below cost are not grocery stores embedded in a relatively free market can you spell loss leader i knew you could grocery stores do not attempt to make up the loss on an individual product by selling more of it in fact your argument above is that kidney dialysis is a loss leader for other medical treatments where lost revenue can be regained but the evidence does not support this contention rather it appears that price controls have disciplined the market by forcing an expansion of service and development of improved lower cost technology to provide comparable benefits providers continue to profit from rd they simply make less on each treatment than they would have if the price had risen at the rate that uncontrolled treatments have there is no question that had price controls forced the price of rd substantially below its actual cost that some or all of the doomsday predictions of free market advocates would have been seen restriction of service lagging technological development etc likewise it appears that in the va and armed forces medical care systems where providers are government agencies some of these negative impacts may occur rd patients in the va system in spokane for example must travel to seattle miles away for treatment the bottom line however is that this is an example of government intervention of a rather extreme sort that appears to have had beneficial results for both providers and consumers claims that government bureaucracy inevitably leads to undesirable outcomes in the marketplace should take such such cases into account jsh mark steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing about data it sure does cut uucp uunet isc br thor steveh the bulls t r hofferbert ma bell
talk.politics.misc	sick and tired was re bill conklin et al s letter replying to a j teel well the two nifty letters giving concrete proof that the income tax is voluntary and giving specific procedures for stopping withholding et cetera have been out there for a while now humbug those letters don t provide concrete proof of anything at all in the absence of any case law that demonstrates the method will actu ally work for ordinary people in everyday situations specifically show us some case law in which the courts have ruled that income tax is illegal and or that ordinary working types do not have to pay income tax and that they can legally avoid paying income tax with out declaring themselves to be churches or some such silliness this issue is sufficiently important that i think we have a right to expect something squarely on point from the us supreme court in the case of federal tax or a state s supreme court for a state s income tax unless you can do that i for one am unwilling to call your material concrete proof there has been no refutation to date have the nay sayers finally given up as defeated sure would like to hear their reasons for disbelief at this point refutation refutation of what you haven t made a case yet you ve posted plenty of claims but you haven t given us any valid reason to believe that any court in the us will agree with you your claims seem on the surface to deviate so radically from the legal mainstream that i feel the burden of proof is still on you to show that your arguments have any merit whatsoever and the cases you ve cited involve such strange situations that i see no reason to assume that the rulings are applicable to anyone else or that they will ultimately stand on appeal to the supreme court why can t you just cite us a case in which joe schmoe a regular employee earning regular wages from a regular company refuses to pay his income tax gets hauled into court is convicted of wilful tax eva sion and then has his conviction overturned by the us supreme court with a landmark majority ruling that income tax is indeed totally voluntary what you say no such case exists hmmm i wonder why not why haven t you shall i conclude that the point has been received and the opposition has forfeited the field with all due respect you can conclude anything you want i just hope for your own sake that you don t conclude that anyone in a position of authority in the united states or any legitimate or illegitimate polit ical subdivision thereof is going to agree with your conclusions for that matter i confess i m thoroughly confused as to why you would be looking for court rulings in your favor anyway since i thought you told us earlier that every court in the us has been in cahoots with big banking interests since the admiralty jurisdiction coverup thing do you honestly expect us to believe that they d go to all the trouble to subvert the system and yet would still promptly slink back into their burrows in the face of anyone who knew enough to invoke the right combination of magic spells and mystic mumbo jumbo not only that but why do you even care what the us courts say anyway didn t you tell us a while back that you ve disavowed all attempts by us officials to classify you as a th amendment federal citizen when the fbi comes to haul you away for tax evasion why don t you just tell them they re out of their jurisdiction and should go back to washington d c where they belong or maybe we should all just go back to mediaeval common law which you suggested would be better than all these statutes codes and the like if you want to renounce society s legal framework fine we can just declare you an outlaw ok and anyone who sees you driving on the roads with no license plate on your car and no driver s license in your wallet can just take you like a game animal and stew you for their supper with plenty of veggies and a pinch of salt but without prejudice ucc sorry everyone it s getting late and i m sick and tired of all this garbage if i know what s good for me i ll just clam up and stop try ing to refute this nonsense and if anyone falls for it and winds up in jail for tax evasion or what not it ll be on their own head needless to say none of the above represents the opinions of my current employer who in any case is a canadian and doesn t really need to care too much about us tax law i on the other hand am a th amend ment federal citizen with a us passport to prove it and plan to keep on filing form s for the foreseeable future though i will probably not owe any us income tax due to the foreign earned income exclusion and or the foreign tax credit rich wales richw mks com mortice kern systems inc mks king st n waterloo ontario canada n j w
talk.politics.misc	re california insurance commissioner endorses federal legislation to protect consumers from scam insurance companies in article rlm apr helen surfcty com rlm helen surfcty com robert l mcmillin rants the left likes to dodge the issues of morality and behavior crying that anyone who raises them blames the victim nonetheless as a recent editorial in the los angeles times pointed out the free love advocates of the s have demolished the poor it s one thing to have children out of wedlock if you re say murphy brown or someone like her turning over a six figure salary and quite another if you re sixteen have no skills and no income and how did the free love advocates of the s manage to perform this demolition forced breeding programs or something by accepting and even celebrating single out of wedlock parenthood the s radicals espousing free love set the stage for catastrophe among the poor they must account for this now let me get this straight after a nice long rant about how people need to take personal responsibility for their economic and social lives all of a sudden s radicals such as me i guess are responsible for poor people s lifestyles tell me how that works or do you think that poor people are just too dumb to think for themselves there are many reasons for the disintegration of the family and support systems in general among this nation s poor somehow i don t think murphy brown or janis joplin is at the top of any sane person s list you want to go after my generation s vaunted cultural revolution for a lasting change for the worse try so called relevant or values education hey it seemed like a good idea at the time how were we to know you needed a real education first i mean we took that for granted ken perlow apr germinal an cci gadfly ihspc att com l audace toujours de l audace encore de l audace
talk.politics.misc	re chrysler bailout in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu mconners magnus acs ohio state edu michael r conners writes plug this one in i m a conservative i hate pee cee s although i have to use one at work and am a proud owner of a next station the real question should the feds bail out steve jobs next a la chrysler so that important manufacturing jobs wouldn t be lost you have just reminded me of an old tom paxton song i m changing my name to chrysler tom paxton oh the price of gold is rising out of sight and the dollar is in sorry shape tonight what the dollar used to get us now won t buy a head of lettus no the economic forecast isn t right but amidst the clouds i spot a shining ray i caneven glimpse a new and better way and i ve devised a plan of action worked it down to the last fraction and i m going into action here today chorus i am changing my name to chrysler i am going down to washington d c i will tell some power broker what they did for iacoca will be perfectly acceptable to me i am changing my name to chrysler i am heading for that great receiving line so when they hand a million grand out i ll be standing with my hand out yes sir i ll get mine when my creditors are screaming for their dough i ll be proud to tell them all where they can go they won y have to scream and holler they ll all be paid to the last dollar where the endless streams of money seam to flow i ll be glad to tell them all what they can do its just a matter of a simple form or two it s not renumeration it s a liberal education ain t you kind of glad that i m in debt to you chorus since the first first amphibians crawled out of the slime we ve been struggling in an unrelenting climb we were hardly up and walking before money started talking and it s sad failure is an awful crime it s been that way for a millennium or two but now it seems there s a different point of view if you re a corporate titanic and your failure is gigantic down in congress there is a safety net for you chorus perhaps steven jobs should take paxton s advice and change his name to chrysler or perhaps set himself up as an s l maybe neil bush could give him a hand akasacou alfred ccs carleton ca no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn j morrison the opinions expressed above are mine like anyone else would admit to them
talk.politics.misc	re stop putting down white het males in c fhg mea ocsmd ocs com mark ocsmd ocs com mark wilson writes yuri villanueva elmo cybernet cse fau edu wrote pbray envy reed edu public account writes in article apr galileo cc rochester edu as b uhura cc rochester edu tree of schnopia writes in apr jato jpl nasa gov michael neuron jpl nasa gov michael rivero writes we are told by u s congresswoman barbara jordan that we are biologically incapable of compassion personally i doubt she said anything of the kind but if someone can provide the original quote in context with source for ahem cross checking i would we willing to agree she is full of sh t naturally if no one can provide these bits of data the paraphrase listed must be disregarded and its poster regarded as full of sh t ok so which will it be i followed up without a thought of double checking if i double checked every fact people vomited onto the table here on the net i d never have time to sleep but to pass the buck to the person who originally posted that quote well michael take it away wild applause drewcifer bi andrew d simchik schnopia as b uhura cc rochester edu treewater words weren t made for cowards happy rhodes
talk.politics.misc	re top ten reasons not to aid russians julie eddie jpl nasa gov julie kangas writes in article c fnh cvo news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes with a tip of the hat to david letterman for making the top ten format so popular top ten reasons that conservatives don t want to aid russia looking around who where don t look at me i want to send aid to russia many other conservatives do as well julie disclaimer all opinions here belong to my cat and no one else yes it was nixon who was most vocal about giving money to russia it makes me proud to be a libertarian it appears both conservatives and liberals prefer to cold war until you win then nurse the enemy back to health for another go around it s like subsidizing the wealthy countries japan germany etc with free defense and then trade warring with them because of the economic competition it s like subsidizing tobacco farmers while paying bureaucrats to pursuade people not to smoke i ask myself what law could we pass to prevent government from doing stupid frivilous things with our money then i think the constitution was supposed to do that could someone please tell me what legitimate constitutional power the federal government is using when it takes money from my paycheck and gives it to needy countries seriously roger collins if we were directed from washington when to sow and when to reap we would soon want bread thomas jefferson
talk.politics.misc	re reward ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu a j teel writes if you are a united states citizen and a resident of the state then your citizenship is in d c and thus are a th amendment citizen are you a citizen of the state in which you live if you are a resident then you are not so the only people who are citizens of a state are ones who don t live in that state so am i a citizen of other states since i live in california
talk.politics.misc	re motor voter kaldis romulus rutgers edu theodore a kaldis writes when i entered st grade eisenhower was president and john f kennedy was just a relatively obscure senator from new england so how old do you think i am now and we all hope teddy that you will graduate from the first grade while clinton is president keep trying disclaimer remialcsid
talk.politics.misc	re why not concentrate on child molesters in article apr armory com rstevew armory com richard steven walz writes in article c ti g c exnet co uk sys exnet co uk xavier gallagher writes in article c obck unix portal com drakon shell portal com harry benjamin gibson writes there is something that bothers me about this whole arguement could someone please calmly explain why homosexuality is such a great sin without giving the standard just because god sez so almost all of judeo thanks for your posting i enjoyed it the reason homosexuality is a sin is because the jews were a struggling group of people trying hard to survive and differentiate between themselves and their oppressors this led to several things worshipping one god all their foes were polytheistic all sex was put in to a moral context all their foes were perverts and spilled their seed liberally it s just as easy to spill seed or spread it thin heterosexualy why then the specific prohibition on homosexuals especially since the answer to everything back then was stoning to death doesn t help population growth much also to just say that their foes were perverts begs the question the key word is spilled if semen was spilled anywhere where there was a chance of procreation it was ok if it was spilt on the ground or in to a man it was a big sin ditto with animals the jews said sex pro creation homosexuals didn t breed there fore they are evil and should be stoned to death all sex was directed towards breeding the jews were few in number and their foes many to survive everything had to go into multiplication like i said stoning to death doesn t help population much it sounds more like a set of prejudices that already existed and were blown into a religion to emphasize the differences of jewish culture and enshrine some pretty stoning non breeding population was fine only the breeders were considered to be worth much jesus judaism original prejudiced bullshit i ll buy the bullshit he was a profound misogynist as well he might have been bitterly gay himself no record of marriage rsw ben gibson xavier richard steven walz rstevew deeptht armory com xavier xavier gallagher play cheap part time dark overlord by s xjg exnet co uk world wide uucp of the universe email feeds e mail advanced dungeons dragons
talk.politics.misc	re so why does clayton cramer fixate on molesting children in article ripbc cunyvm bitnet ripbc cunyvm bitnet writes from cramer optilink com clayton cramer the homosexuals have gotten a law passed in california that makes it illegal to discriminate against a person in employment based on their sexual orientation and not defined sexual orientation pedophilia is a sexual orientation got him cramer is now claiming that pedophilia is a sexual orientation rather than a chronicly homosexual condition this changes the whole argument in as much that is pedophilia is a sexual orientation all of its own peds cannot be called homosexual peds are peds who may have a preference as to the sex of the child they molest though most do not have a preference but that is a subset of their basic ped nature cramer has as much as admitted that peds and gay men are different orientations all we need now is to get him to admit that the apparent similarities he keeps on about are just optical illusions xavier xavier gallagher play cheap part time dark overlord by s xjg exnet co uk world wide uucp of the universe email feeds e mail advanced dungeons dragons
talk.politics.misc	re damn furriners be taken over kaldis romulus rutgers edu writes kaldis you are a worm rank balderdash america s reputation abroad has become tarnished because of feckless and pusillanimous cowards who apparently do not have the requisite gonads to stand up for american honor and dignity translation it s them damn liberals again the american way may not be the only way and you may not consider it to be necessarily the best way but by god it s our way and we re going to stick with it if you can t go along with the program then perhaps you should consider moving elsewhere who gave you the authority to create and enforce this rather hazy thing called the american way this is a democracy and we don t need to stick to it or stick up for it unless we so choose remember that ted from civics class in greeley co that is exactly the problem with canadians they don t stand for anything with certitude nice generalization you pipsqueak you mouse if you are sorry to intrude then why do it don t you have the courage of your convictions hell do you even have any convictions to start with what kind of example of manly dignity is this sheesh coming from such a crass example of manly dignity he must feel really hurt jon jac y virginia edu
talk.politics.misc	re tieing abortion to health reform is clinton nuts in article c z xw ef news cso uiuc edu parker ehsn cen uiuc edu writes i like the way people call it cruel and unusual punishment as if imprisonment isn t cruel too lethal injection pales in comparison and they have a death sentence because they were convicted of a cruel and unusual crime it s not what they did that matters it s what you do and what i do and what we do in response that matters do we lessen ourselves by killing in response to killing it s vengeance that s all it s no deterrent it serves no purpose but to slake somebody s blood lust it would be nice though if we never convicted someone of a crime they didn t commit and it would make the death penalty much more justifiable yeah yeah yeah and sure would be nice if we didn t apply the death penalty disproportionately to minorities i ll revisit my opinion on the death penalty when there are more whites up for it than blacks i e when hell freezes over c j silverio cj sgi com ceej well sf ca us the people causing the trouble were socialists and homosexuals the typical sort of person who opposes us don treshman ex klansman leader of the pro life group rescue america on bbc tv april
talk.politics.misc	re prolifer or terrorist threat in article c za h ihd wetware com drieux wetware com writes in article pamhpinn d geraldo cc utexas edu taite ccwf cc utexas edu writes i m prepared to instruct individuals in the proper use and handling of firearms as a desert storm vet with six years in the national guard i have a great deal of experience in handling weapons and tactical training ps anyone up for a discussion of counter sniper operations security drills your friend the counter terrorist operation if twit promises to train them in tactics and weapons handlings i doubt any of them will last long enough to become terrorists look for a sudden rise in firearms accidents among the fiends of the fetus though
talk.politics.misc	re top ten reasons not to aid russians in c fnh cvo news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes top ten reasons that conservatives don t want to aid russia edited now that s funny remembering that good humor always dances uncomfortably close to the truth i can t wait to see the inevitable flames paul barnett mpp os development convex computer corp richardson tx
talk.politics.misc	re california insurance commissioner endorses federal legislation to protect consumers from scam insurance companies johne vcd hp com john eaton writes nigel allen ndallen r node hub org wrote here is a press release from the california department of insurance california insurance commissioner endorses federal legislation to protect consumers from scam insurance companies i may be a little dense but i would have thought that protecting consumers from scam insurance companies would be the prime objective of something called the cal insurance commission if they aren t accomplishing that now then why do we need them very simple an insurance commissioner is a bureaucrat a regulator it is his her duties to make rules to enforce laws he she cannot make laws if there is no law that covers a specific subject say scam insurance companies a regulator cannot create one so they have to go to a proper legislative body to get such a law enacted for the california insurance commissioner there are two possible legislative bodies the california state legislature and the u s congress we all know how little the california state legislature accomplishes esp along the lines of insurance reform legislation negative movement so garamendi wants the feds to do it because a he has a better chance of getting a federal law through and b since many of the scam companies work across state lines national borders it is better to have a law that reach out into other jurisdictions john eaton hp vcd johne
talk.politics.misc	re celebrate liberty in article apr dsd es com bob waldrop f n z fidonet org bob waldrop writes what did this have to do with sf and please don t answer that a number of libertarians are sf fans or vice versa i know a number of sf fans who are also baseball fans but i don t plan on posting the red sox schedule jim mann stratus computer jmann vineland pubs stratus com
talk.politics.misc	clinton s sister shalala last night i heard something about bill clinton s sister being involved in a marijuana bust and the news being suppressed i also heard something about her being an ex con this source is not reliable though it was a collage booklet advertising a local band can anyone on the net verify this or provide more details i m surprised i haven t seen anything about this in this newsgroup also does anyone know what happened to the charges that shalala was a regular pot smoker when she was in college this ghastly accusation was reported on cnn streamline news the day she was nominated then i never heard anything about it again it s almost enough to make me want to start an act up type campaign to invade the privacy of closet smokers if only this type of publicity didn t violate people s rights jake what s so interdisciplinary about studying lower levels of thought process jacob galley gal midway uchicago edu
talk.politics.misc	re sexual proposition sexual harassment in article pkkidinnsrj senator bedfellow mit edu wdstarr athena mit edu william december starr writes in article mar pmafire inel gov cdm pmafire inel gov dale cook said a real world data point a person has a much stronger legal claim for harrassment sexual or otherwise if they make it clear to the offender that their behaviour is unwanted if the behaviour persists harrassment is much easier to demonstrate due to the fact that the offender knew that the behaviour was unwanted no argument here my original query regarded the question of why the first sexual proposition made by person a to person b would be considered to be sexual harassment by some many people assuming of course that there does not exist a power relationship between a and b such that the proposition carries strong implications of extortion right from word one i can only say that those people are wrong the word harass means to irritate or torment persistently i d hardly consider one time to fall under the definition of persistent additionally there is no basis to assume the behaviour is unwanted unlike an illegal proposition of course i think the original question of offering money for sex is inarguably harrassment because the activity is illegal and could be presumed to be unwanted by the average citizen i have to take issue with this viewpoint given that a prostitution is a victimless crime and b there are literally millions of americans who participate in some sort of victimless activities which the state has defined to be criminal e g prostitution obscenity gambling using certain recreational drugs having non mercenary sex with persons not one s spouse in certain states having unnatural sex with people regardless of marital status or exchange of money in certain states etc i d have to say that the idea that an activity may be presumed to be unwanted by the average citizen merely because it is illegal is the sort of sophistry that only a judge could indulge in with a straight face he said speaking as a law student who s read his share of judicial opinions in which reality was not only denied but in fact actually inverted in order to make the universe conform to the writer s politics i was speaking from a legalistic viewpoint what you say is true but the law in order to make what little sense it manages to make has to make some assumptions assuming that an illegal activity is unwanted by the average citizen i think is reasonable certainly i would need a preponderance of evidence on the side of the propositioner that there was a reasonable belief that the proposition was welcome the number of people who participate in victimless crimes notwithstanding the fact reamins that under the law the activity is illegal to presume that the proposition is welcome simply because a large number of people indulge in it is the type of sophistry only a lawyer could indulge in with a straight face dale cook any town having more churches than bars has a serious social problem edward abbey the opinions are mine only i e they are not my employer s
talk.politics.misc	re top ten reasons not to aid russians in article c wj y encore com rcollins ns encore com roger collins writes julie eddie jpl nasa gov julie kangas writes in article c fnh cvo news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes with a tip of the hat to david letterman for making the top ten format so popular top ten reasons that conservatives don t want to aid russia looking around who where don t look at me i want to send aid to russia many other conservatives do as well yes it was nixon who was most vocal about giving money to russia it makes me proud to be a libertarian it appears both conservatives and liberals prefer to cold war until you win then nurse the enemy back to health for another go around enemy sounds like that s the viewpoint of the stereotypical rednecked conservative always been commies always will be i suggest you listen very carefully to the stuff yeltsin and his people are saying and compare that with the very anti west slogans coming from his opponents in the russian congress i sure know who i want to back oh btw germany has sure come back as a terrible enemy after wwii hasn t it it s like subsidizing the wealthy countries japan germany etc with free defense and then trade warring with them because of the economic competition it s like subsidizing tobacco farmers while paying bureaucrats to pursuade people not to smoke better to let them degenerate into civil war remember all those nuclear weapons in russia i cannot imagine that they would not be used in a civil war if nationialists take over and even if they prevent a civil war most feel they must take back large parts of land that are in other countries like ukraine i also cannot imagine ukraine giving up land without a fight possibly nuclear how does this affect us well we are on the same planet and if vast tracks of europe are blown away i think we d feel something a massive breakup of a country that spans th the planet is bound to have affects here of course there is also the humanitarian argument that democracies should help other democracies or struggling democracies i ask myself what law could we pass to prevent government from doing stupid frivilous things with our money then i think the constitution was supposed to do that could someone please tell me what legitimate constitutional power the federal government is using when it takes money from my paycheck and gives it to needy countries seriously seriously everyone has different opinions on what is stupid my two causes are aid to russia and a strong space program someone else will champion welfare or education or doing studies of drunken goldfish that is why we have a republic and not a true democracy instead of gridlock on a massive scale we only have gridlock on a congressional scale btw who is to decide stupid this is just like those who want to impose their morals on others just the sort of thing i thought libertarians were against actually my politics are pretty libertarian except on this one issue and this is why it is impossible for me to join the party it seems that libertarians want to withdraw from the rest of the world and let it sink or swim we could do that years ago but not now like it or not we are in the beginnings of a global economy and global decision making julie disclaimer all opinions here belong to my cat and no one else
talk.politics.misc	re so why does clayton cramer fixate on molesting children in article apr armory com talk politics misc alt sex soc men rstevew armory com richard steven walz writes in article ripbc cunyvm bitnet ripbc cunyvm bitnet writes i think the dialogue would go better if at least some gays showed awareness of a practical issue for example men and women use different toilets hence men who are likely to abuse girls have that avenue closed to them there are many other situations where it is easy to prevent sexual abuse between the two sexes through such measures and social conventions it is harder to prevent it with gays but if those gays who do not abuse children nor want to became aware that this is a practical problem that we can solve with good will on both sides then we can have protection for parents and children at the same time as protection for gays in those ways that are of importance to their pursuit of happiness in their own way just a thought rohit parikh sorry rohit but you are responding to someone well recognized as a flaming nut i e clayton cramer he must have been abused by a man and is living his life in an attempt to vilify all men who like sex with other men something slightly similar to the way his assailant liked it with him he will alter or misrepresent anything he finds to try to prove that there are homosexuals who wish to rape little boys like he was coming out of the woodwork there is no hope for him in all probability he is secretly gay which compounds his neurosis in his own mind by thinking that someone else made him that way i don t personally see how someone like him could walk and chew gum at the same time as mentally crippled and dominated as he is by his fantasies he would have you believe that the figures on the percentage of people who like to do it with the same sex sometime or all the time is way smaller than it is but then he will virtually assert that everyone s queer and they re trying to get him he actually believes despite all evidence that homosexuals do some huge disproportionate amount of child sexual abuse even though he insists that there may be as few as of them in the male population if there were that few of them in the population san francisco would currently be empty because a significant portion of them have sought a tolerant atmosphere in that city and the numbers simply do not work when you add up their home town origins there is nothing to be gained by communicating with clayton cramer he is unable to listen to anyone rsw richard steven walz rstevew deeptht armory com maple street without safe and free abortion women are santa cruz ca organ surrogates to unwanted parasites real men would never accept organ slavery and will protect women sorry but i don t see how the response applies to what was posted unless i am badly mistaken rohit is suggesting that protecting boys from men is different than protecting girls from men there are situations in which boys and girls are apart from members of the opposite sex due to social convention or whatever and thus are safe in at least some sense these same situations don t necessarily protect the children from abuse by members of the same sex if we can understand that it s not such a tremendous leap to suggest that if we all think about it hard someone may come up with a practical solution or even a partial solution to some of the situations in which children are made vulnerable to homosexuals who wish to abuse them by working together with good will on both sides we may be able to start solving problems without restricting anyone s freedoms mr walz on the other hand is using rohit s post as an excuse for personal attacks on mr cramer while mr walz hasn t by a long stretch been the only one to flame mr cramer it is no less childish and it only serves to weaken any other arguments he may make in the future rick roy usenet rick howtek mv com america online qed disclaimer my employer s views are orthogonal to these the early bird got worms
talk.politics.misc	re why is tax evasion not considered unpatriotic ipser solomon technet sg ed ipser writes there is a deeper reason taxes by their very nature are un american one need only look at the birth and history of the us to see this fact so that s why the newly independent states all had tax systems tim smith
talk.politics.misc	re why not concentrate on child molesters in article pdxgate uucp a cb rigel cs pdx edu chris bertholf writes mcartwr auvm american edu martina cartwright writes the official and legal term for rape is the crime of forcing a female to submit to sexual intercourse please supply me with some references i was not aware that all states had the word female in the rape statutes i am sure others are surprised as well i know thats how it works in practice nice n fair not but was unaware that it was in the statutes as applying to females only uniformly throughout the u s i agree mostly with chris it is unfortunately imo true that the fbi figures for rape based on the uniform crime report report only female rapes however some states such as illinois are not tabluated because they refuse to comply with this sexist definition the worms crawl in the worms crawl out the worms post to the net from your account
talk.politics.misc	re why not concentrate on child molesters in article c vrii h exnet co uk s xjg exnet co uk xavier gallagher writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes in article c obck unix portal com drakon shell portal com harry benjamin gibson writes they believe that they have a right to force people to hire them rent to them and do business with them regardless of the feelings or beliefs of the other person cramer you are off your target again the law forces no one to obey it at every point any individual may stand up and say this law sucks even you could say this gay men and women have not forced you mean they passed a law that does nothing at all no enforcement mechanisms as usual you are wrong any off this changes in the law have been brought about by democratic processes those same processes are the ones that protect you from certain abuses yeah right i guess the next time a homosexual complains about sodomy laws i can just echo your stupidity about democratic processes and he won t have any basis for complaint i must admit that i never understood why it is referred to as an abomination until i started to read soc motss and started finding evidence that homosexuality is a response to child molestation which is disproportionately done by homosexuals just to make brian kane happy of molestation is done by homosexuals and bisexuals but it is possible that this is because homosexual bisexual molesters have far more victims than heterosexual molesters no it isn t no it isn t no it isn t and it depends on the subset note subset of abuse you look at repeating it three times makes it more correct clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all xavier gallagher play clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re why not concentrate on child molesters in article apr kosmos wcc govt nz quirke a kosmos wcc govt nz writes cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes i thought i was clear because homosexuals support laws to force employment of homosexuals against the will of some employers they are attempting to interfere with private acts between mutually consenting adults ok i ll leave others to discuss your use of statistics but i think i m able to discuss liberterian ideas the ideas are good they seek to maximise individual rights by keeping governments out of transactions between consenting adults if an employer wants to discriminate against a group she he should be allowed to to maximise their freedom the discriminatees can go elsewhere unfortunately it doesn t relate to maximising total individual rights within a community if an employer or shopkeeper or whatever can discriminate in this way then the freedom of the discriminatee goes down because people do not live in perfect economic conditions with perfect mobility unlimited numbers of potential employers of their skills unlimited places to buy goods the liberterian argument leads to a decrease in the amount of liberty in the community you mean if a large part of the population supports discrimination against homosexuals they will be injured but if a large part of the population supports such discrimination how did that law get passed tony quirke wellington new zealand quirke a kosmos wcc govt nz clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re why not concentrate on child molesters in article pdxgate uucp a cb rigel cs pdx edu chris bertholf writes mcartwr auvm american edu martina cartwright writes the official and legal term for rape is the crime of forcing a female to submit to sexual intercourse please supply me with some references i was not aware that all states had the word female in the rape statutes i am sure others are surprised as well i know thats how it works in practice nice n fair not but was unaware that it was in the statutes as applying to females only uniformly throughout the u s chris there may be some confusion here the uniform crime reports program run by the fbi defines rape as a female victim only crime even though some states have the laws de sexed i suspect that this causes male victims of rape to be left out of the ucr data clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re ca s pedophilia laws in article apr hobbes kzoo edu k hobbes kzoo edu jamie r mccarthy writes cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes unfortunately homosexuals don t believe in this concept of freedom they believe that they have a right to force people to hire them rent to them and do business with them regardless of the feelings or beliefs of the other person allow me to point out that clayton is once again unfairly lumping an entire class of people as if they all have one will having completely dived into the abyss of believing that there are no queers in the world who think differently from the child molestation advocating minority on soc motss he doesn t even notice that he s starting a sentence with they believe when the referent of that they is millions of people so few as to be irrelevant if you don t want to be lumped together as a group stop insisting on being treated as a member of a group dreitman oregon uoregon edu daniel r reitman attorney to be writes force people to hire no require people to give them a fair look yes cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes you give them a fair look you decide that you don t want to hire the guy wearing the nambla t shirt he files a lawsuit you lose yes such laws force you to hire homosexuals pedophiles as well sexual orientation is not defined by the anti discrimination law that was passed last year pedophilia isn t a sexual orientation and cramer let me describe how you d have it and see if this is accurate i apply for a job at a computer company they see i m wearing some article of homosexual adornment i dunno maybe a silence death pin or something they turn me down because of that i can t do a darned thing and have to go look somewhere else am i correct in assuming that you wholeheartedly approve of the company s actions or at least that you wholeheartedly support their right to take that action i wholeheartedly support their right to take this action i wouldn t do it myself unless it was something like the nambla t shirt how about a black man applies for a job at a bank the bank decides based on statistics a black person would be more likely to steal money and denies the man the job would you support the bank s right to this freedom if not explain how this differs i support their right to do so just like i support your right to engage in sodomy with consenting adults but i think they are doing something wrong i wouldn t do business with such a bank clayton has repeatedly said that california s statutes classify pedophilia as a sexual orientation and that discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation is illegal if true i m frankly amazed but i don t trust clayton to give me the whole story would someone clarify for me whether this is true what sort of discrimination clayton s talking about jobs housing hate crimes and whether the effect of the law is really that a daycare has to hire an admitted pedophile jamie mccarthy internet k kzoo edu applelink j mccarthy here s the law that was passed and signed by the governor the people of the state of california do enact as follows section the purpose of this act is to codify existing case law as determined in gay law students v pacific telephone and telegraph cal d and soroka v dayton hudson corp cal app d prohibiting discrimination based on sexual orientation sec section is added to the labor code to read a sections and prohibit discrimination or disparate treatment in any of the terms and conditions of employment based on actual or perceived sexual orientation b this section shall not apply to a religious association or corporation not organized for private profit whether incorporated as a religious or public benefit corporation clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re why not concentrate on child molesters in article gc g b w w honour welly gen nz radagast honour welly gen nz radagast writes cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes unfortunately homosexuals don t believe in this concept of freedom they believe that they have a right to force people to hire them rent to them and do business with them regardless of the feelings or beliefs of the other person ha ha ha oh clayton you re so good so consistent so predictable yup that s right they these homosexual people want to force you to ignore what s none of your fucking business ie i will explain slowly their sexual orientation should be irrelevant as irrelevant as their gender skin colour religious affiliation attitude to hand gun ownership etc they want to force you to hire the best person for the job rent the accomodation to the person who will look after it do business with whoever will make you money yet when a law was proposed for virginia that extended this philosophy to cigarette smokers so that people who smoked away from the work couldn t be discriminated against by employers the liberal gov wilder vetoed it which shows that liberals don t give a damn about best person for the job it s just a power play clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re hilter and homosexuals in article ericsc x k apz netcom com erics netcom com eric smith writes gsmith lauren iwr uni heidelberg de gene w smith writes are you saying that people voted for hitler and he became reich chancellor in good part because he used bully boys to attack communists hitler did not become become reich chancellor because people voted for him i m not sure if you meant to imply that or not but i just thought i d bring that up eric smith hitler became chancellor because people voted for his political party that s not a huge difference in a parliamentary system clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re lincoln slavery re top ten tricks you can play on the american voter in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes in article kmitchelc wa hlz netcom com kmitchel netcom com kenneth c mitchell writes slavery makes economic sense it never makes moral sense when human muscle power is an economically valuable asset agricultural slavery might have lasted right up to the first mechanical cotton reaper but no further reapers are cheaper than slaves and don t have to be fed during the winter this argument makes a several fundamental errors first agricultural slavery was not limited to production of cotton in the american south slave labor was used extensively to grow tobacco sugar and rice all of which remained labor intensive enterprises well into the th century and of course in states like kentucky and virginia not well suited to large scale plantations slave labor was used to make one of the most valuable agricultural products of all more slaves in some ways this treatment of humans beings as breeding livestock is the most horrifying aspect of american slavery second although mechanization of cotton production could be expected to reduce the demands for labor eventually it was only in the s the mechanization of cotton production in the south largely eliminated the labor intensive character of the operation long after the first mechanical cotton reaper was invented this is an interesting question steinbeck s grapes of wrath published in the s uses agricultural mechanization of cotton production in arkansas as the cause of the joad family being evicted from the land how many years were involved in the mechanization of cotton farming when did this first appear ken mitchell the powers not delegated to the united states by the steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re lincoln slavery was re top ten tricks in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes in article apr rigel econ uga edu depken rigel econ uga edu craig depken writes in article apr princeton edu glhewitt phoenix princeton edu gary livingston hewitt writes labor is a tough one labor is defined economically as the efforts both mental and physical of humans capital is defined as intermediate goods used to create other goods and services now if a slave is considered an intermediate good then the slave has now been dehumanized and is simply a machine not good for the anti slave i e pro human rights argument so slaves are humans and they produce labor sorry the question of defining slave labor is no tough er than defining the labor of a horse an ox or any other livestock both legally and economically in a slave economy slaves are not humans they are livestock can you provide some evidence that the slave states regarded slaves as not humans they were outside our society and similar phrases that basically meant that they didn t have to recognized as having the same rights as a free person but they were never considered not human to my knowledge like a horse that pulls a plow a slave s labor is the return on the capital required to purchase and feed him the parallel is so obvious i m not sure how you missed it after all its was the liberty to use their property as they saw fit that motivated southern planters to emphasize the importance of states rights if that were the case the slave states would not have passed so many laws that restricted the freedom of slave owners to do as they wished with their property examples laws prohibiting manumission without legislative grant laws prohibiting teaching slaves to read write craig steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re lincoln slavery re top ten tricks you can play on the american voter in article apr rigel econ uga edu depken rigel econ uga edu craig depken writes in article mar isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes the argument that slavery was a dying institution was often made by is historians mainly southerners who sought to divert attention from the institution as the central issue of the civil war in fact however the argument is specious at best more recent scholarship from the last years demonstrates rather conclusively that the cotton sugar tobacco economy and its reliance on slavery was increasingly dominant in the south prior to the civil war this is because the south did not receive the massive momentum of capital intensive growth that the northern states did compare the northern agricultural system with the southern and you will see a major difference in the capital to labor intensity capital and labor are one and the same in a slave economy except that capital doesn t reproduce quite as readily as slaves did slavery was a dying institution before the cotton gin yes but not in it is true that cotton suffered from price depression in the s the period used to claim that slavery would not have lasted in the south that is not the argument that i have heard it would not have lasted because the growth in the north would not have been sustained for much longer without spilling over to the southern states i e northern industry would have migrated capital to the southern states and with that would have come immigrant labor to the ports of the south e g charleston savannah mobile new orleans etc this would have put the breaks on the slave market and slavery would have been out moded by the capital intensity of competing agriculturalists those that insisted on keeping slaves because of their cruel hearts and hatred for black people would have been driven out of business simple capital to labor ratio read michael parkin microeconomics nd edition and any other basic economics book this assumes that the slave holder dominance over state governments would not have caused the passage of laws to keep out capital from the north since slave holders were prepared to do almost anything else to destroy free markets in order to maintain slavery i do not doubt that they would have passed laws to cripple any serious competitive threat thomas sowell s market and minorities argues that the maintenance of slavery and the costs it imposed on state and local governments discouraged not only capital formation but also outside capital investment in the southern states craig a depken ii clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re lincoln slavery re top ten tricks you can play on the american voter in article apr princeton edu glhewitt phoenix princeton edu gary livingston hewitt writes in article apr rigel econ uga edu depken rigel econ uga edu craig depken writes to which is concluded the south only wanted free trade no they wanted slavery if free trade was in their economic interests under that regime which it was then free trade they wanted too but gary l hewitt glhewitt phoenix princeton edu of course free trade and slavery don t make much sense together in a phrase anyway perhaps mr depken meant low import tariffs but that is quite a bit less than free trade clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re rodney king trial civil rights violations double jeopardy in article c pul cl ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com mark wilson writes in apr husc harvard edu spanagel husc harvard edu david spanagel writes furthermore what are the specific charges against the four lapd officers which civil rights or laws are they accused of violating i believe it is a general charge that is no specific right is mentioned i don t think that this is accurate i believe and could be wrong that there is a specific right allegedly to have been violated like the th or due process or whatever what about double jeopardy has there been any concern that a verdict against koon et al might be overturned upon appeal because they re being tried again for the same actions i thought i heard something on the news about this the ss has previously ruled that since the seperate governments were in essence seperate sovereigns then double jeopardy does not apply if this is true then could defendents also be tried under city and county governments this mornings paper said that the aclu has decided to reinstate its opposition to this kind of thing they had earlier suspended their opposition while they examined the king case there might be hope for the aclu after all double jeopardy does not apply but not for the reasons you quote double jeopardy states that a person may not be tried twice on the same charge however the police are not on trial for the crime of excessive force or assault they are now on trial for the different crime of violating mr king s civil rights as for the city and county or state trying you more than once it most likely will not happen this is because cities and states have separate laws governing behaviour for example in some states it is an offence to carry marijuana but not a city offence also i think murder is against federal but not some state laws and my mind was filled with wonder when the evening headlines read richard cory went home last night and put a bullet through his head
talk.politics.misc	re th century capitalism in article mar jane uh edu mece d jane uh edu chris struble wrote christian struble writes some people are not very good at getting the best deal for their effort and others are unwilling to put forth much effort even in the face of economic incentives there will always be some people who are stupid or lazy relative to the ability or effort of most others the question is what do you do with them there are three options kill those who are not productive as a drain upon society this is the communist all who do not toil shall not eat lenin or fascist approach you re being too generous to the communists i think in practice communism has solved the problem by killing off anybody who is too productive and who therefore raises embarrassing questions about why the rest of the group is a bunch of sluggards the mass butchery of kulaks in the ussr is a good instance of this a poor second best is to have a neighboring capitalist country to which people of politically incorrect skill and ambition flee i often wonder just what castro would have done if the cubans presently in miami would have been forced to remain in cuba would they have revolted and killed him off or been killed best of all is to build a wall locking the citizens of your country in load it up so heavily with attack dogs barbed wire and land mines that most people fleeing over it die and then give everyone the choice of obedience prison or flight this would be a bad science fiction novel if the east germans hadn t actually done it the last person to die crossing the wall as i recall was an unarmed woman who was shot in the back erich honecker was going to go on trial for that but he fled to socialists in chile it s good to be kind to one s intellectual opponents but sometimes it s a sheer waste of time erich schwarz schwarze starbase caltech edu
talk.politics.misc	re top ten reasons not to aid russians in article c wj y encore com rcollins ns encore com roger collins writes i ask myself what law could we pass to prevent government from doing stupid frivilous things with our money then i think the constitution was supposed to do that could someone please tell me what legitimate constitutional power the federal government is using when it takes money from my paycheck and gives it to needy countries seriously roger collins since you asked article i section article i section article i section article ii section article vi sixteenth amendment with this as a guide try reading it yourself jsh steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing about data it sure does cut uucp uunet isc br thor steveh the bulls t r hofferbert ma bell
talk.politics.misc	re hard times investments was no subject given in article pkvcl nu usenet ins cwru edu an cleveland freenet edu broward horne writes in a previous article riggs descartes etl army mil bill riggs says so much land and in the long run we have a zero sum game going someone somewhere is going to make a killing from nosediving real estate markets the worst thing to do is panic the best thing you can do is to ride out deflation to the end it hurts but you re better off than if you sell short and donate to someone else s inheritance sad paradigm shift is coming chum ride the wave i don t believe in the wave theory there s only so much land oh god is this mike zimmer s replacement my mother in law who grew up in germany doesn t believe in money at all she started out as a real estate developer and now raises horses she keeps telling me that inflation is coming back and to lock in my fixed rate mortgage as low as possible here let me spell it out for you can you spell two trillion dollar bank bailout maybe you d like to invest in some foreign currency which one would you guess to come out on top sigh speculators never learn bill r the only proposals in the senate that i my opinions do not represent have seen fit to mention are particularly those of my employer or praiseworthy or particularly scandalous ones any government agency it seems to me that the historian s foremost bill riggs duty is to ensure that virtue is remembered and to deter evil words and deeds with the fear of posterity s damnation tacitus annals iii
talk.politics.misc	losers was re stop putting down white het males in article apr galileo cc rochester edu as b uhura cc rochester edu tree of schnopia writes in apr jato jpl nasa gov michael neuron jpl nasa gov michael rivero writes i don t know what you as a white male did i do know what white males as a class have done they ve invented the light bulb the automobile the airplane printing with movable type photography computers the electric guitar anasthesia rocket powered space flight the computer electricity the telephone tv motion pictures penecillin sp telescopes nylon and the x ray machine two glaring errors here first white males don t do anything as a class individual white males invented those things which means nothing to white males as a whole second you neglected to mention charles manson hitler mccarthy jack the ripper ted bundy and a whole slew of individuals who have done horrible evil things if white males can take the credit for our fellow white males boons we must also take the blame for our fellows blights i claim we deserve neither credit nor blame for these things we are told by u s congresswoman barbara jordan that we are biologically incapable of compassion she s full of shit we are told by susan brownmiller that we re all rapists and that s all we are she s full of shit we re told by catherine comins that a false rape charge is actually good for us she s full of shit we are told by the feminist lawyers that we are not to be trusted with children they re full of shit we are told by newsweek magazine that we are poor sports if we complain newsweek is full of shit the point ladies and gents michael is not entirely correct in his theory that because members of our race and gender made great advances the race and gender as a whole deserve more respect than they receive white males do deserve to be treated better than they are being treated but not for that reason and the male bashers he quoted are repugnant hate mongers no better than the chauvinists they despise so no one s right as usual white males need to wake up and realize that they re being unfair yes but everyone else needs to wake up and realize that being unfair right back is disgusting racist and sexist why can t we learn to treat everyone fairly without generalizing what stupidity gene makes this so difficult i d like to buy the world a clue the word that is missing in this whole discourse is not the b word or the h word or even the n or w words it is the l word loser that s right when we boil all the crap out of this argument it is all about winning and losing and nothing else let me explain remember the eighties no excuses nobody who can handle a mail buffer can claim they are too young to remember ronald reagan yet the eighties were about how america learned to win once again then wouldn t you know we won so well that there was nothing left to win no cold war to endure no nuclear holocaust no more worlds to conquer we forgot about outer space long ago the kind of overwhelming no holds barred success that killed alexander the great yes there were a few little problems along the way stock market meltdown here an s l bailout there a few revolts and crazy middle eastern dictators to contend with but as tacitus would tell ya the god augustus never had it so good in the meantime there is guilt for winning maybe a fear that one doesn t deserve one s bounty or success so there is a kinder and gentler type of politician these days bill clinton affirmative action and lots of discourse about people who don t get it for those of us in the winning business this kind of talk is mildly irritating but there is still no suggestion of losing but what do we find now to put it mildy the stereotype of our white male non winner is woody hayes in the rose bowl punching out photojournalists when those california fruits and nuts steal another one with a hail mary pass in the fourth quarter the whole idea behind three yards and a cloud of dust is to wear your opponent down until he collapses in the final period but woody just used his fists uzzies seem to be the weapon of choice these days who is d fens anyway the answer is as plain as the horn rims on your face the guy is michael douglas posing as a loser this is known as controversial casting but that baggy short sleeved white shirt sure does look natural on mike doesn t it gordon gekko will never look the same though woody always dressed that way did we really expect gekko to take it easy and enjoy that kind of wardrobe without putting up a fuss what we are starting to lose sight of is that bashing d fens is the same game as bashing that poor african american slug that clint eastwood used to blow away all the time as that arch wasp male gender george c scott declaimed americans traditionally love to win they love a winner and will not tolerate a loser and so on the political implications are simple if as many socialists and democrats do you consider society a finite pie to a apportioned in some equitable way then you have to worry about who is a winner and who is a loser to tell whose side you are on that could be black women today asian homosexuals tommorrow and yes indeed white men some yet to be determined day when the balance of the pie has finally swung against that minority or you can just blow the whole thing off and say as do most conservatives and all the libertarians and act is if you didn t care who s winning and who s losing in some cases you might say something about make sure the game is fair equality of opportunity not of condition in the latter case you might be able to identify yourself as a neoconservative or a neoliberal depending on how much you want to limit the pot either way you go the way of the winner is no longer the way to be popular at least after you graduate from high school but you ll still be popular at high school reunions but it beats being a nerd as i would imagine michael douglas would now agree and in the long run it is the only way to go even in hollywood which treats losers worse than any other place in america except for new york and washington d c and even in columbus ohio which produced alex keaton but no champion football teams in the eighties and the first quarter of the nineties i d like to see more winners in this society regardless of race gender religious preference and sexual orientation maybe we should even let a few more of them be white men we should definitely let the buckeyes win the rose bowl someday bill r the only proposals in the senate that i my opinions do not represent have seen fit to mention are particularly those of my employer or praiseworthy or particularly scandalous ones any government agency it seems to me that the historian s foremost bill riggs duty is to ensure that virtue is remembered and to deter evil words and deeds with the fear of posterity s damnation tacitus annals iii
talk.politics.misc	re formal rebuttal to the presumption of jurisdiction in article apr midway uchicago edu thf kimbark uchicago edu ted frank writes you re not breathing clean air provided by government regulations if this doesn t beat all i ever heard the above certainly says a mouthful about the mindset of ted frank and also of statists everywhere the views expressed herein are theodore a kaldis my own only do you seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe that a major university rutgers remus rutgers edu kaldis as this would hold such views
talk.politics.misc	re reward in article apr oregon uoregon edu dreitman oregon uoregon edu daniel r reitman attorney to be writes in article apr colorado edu ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu a j teel writes no the definition of resident is very specific it is the same thing as alien look it up remember that the common usage of the words are not always their legal meaning this i gotta see some authority for from black s law dictionary revised th ed page residence a factual place of abode living in a particular locality reese v reese misc n y s d zimmerman or p d it requires only bodily presence as an inhabitant of a place in re campbell s guardianship minn n w d as domicile and residence are usually in the same place they are frequently used as if they had the same meaning but they are not identical terms for a person may have two places of residence as in the city and country but only one domicile residence means living in a particular locality but domicile means living in that locality with intent to make it a fixed and permanent home residence simply requires bodily presence as an inhabitant in a given place while domicile requires bodily presence in that place and also an intention to make it one s domicile in re riley s will n y s misc residence demands less intimate local ties than domicile but domicile allows absence for indefinite period if intent to return remains immigration act sec u s c a sec e p transatlantica italiana v elting c c a n y f d but see ward v ward w va s e southwestern greyhound lines v craig okl p d holding that residence and domicile are synonymous terms residence has a meaning dependent on context and purpose of statute in re jones pa a d words residence and domicile may have an identical or variable meaning depending on subject matter and context of statute kemp v kemp n y s d misc legal residence see legal resident one who has his residence in a place see residence also a tenant who was obliged to reside on his lord s land and not to depart from the same called also homme levant et couchant and in normandy resseant du fief ronald cole e mail zippy ecst csuchico edu senior software engineer phone optx international the bill of rights void where prohibited by law
talk.politics.misc	hate crimes laws in article apr news acns nwu edu dmeier casbah acns nwu edu douglas meier writes in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes in article apr news acns nwu edu dmeier casbah acns nwu edu douglas meier writes if someone beats up a homosexual he should get charged for assault and battery why must we add gay bashing to the list isn t this a sort of double jeopardy or am i just being a fascist again to deter an epidemic of gay bashing that has not been deterred by assault laws so we ought to make beating up a homosexual more illegal than beating up a straight and who s advocating that hate crimes laws are aimed at the motivations of the acts just like premeditated homicide is treated stricter than heat of passion homicide no it is not double jeopardy a single act may lead to multiple charges and multiple crimes i think what you meant to say here was with the current mutation of the us constitution under the current police state someone may be charged multiple times for one act if the victim in question is of the right shade a single act should never merit more than on charge so if i set off a bomb in the world trade center i can only be charged with more than one murder and not the other five deaths and extensive property damage after all the bomb was a single act douglas c meier you can t play electro magnetic golf ted frank however teel should have mentioned that though thf kimbark uchicago edu his advice is legally sound if you follow it the u of c law school you will probably wind up in jail standard disclaimers james donald in misc legal
talk.politics.misc	e mail does anyone have the e mail address for the white house if so please send it to me thanks a lot
talk.politics.misc	re formal rebuttal to the presumption of jurisdiction in article apr cae prds cdx mot com dan cae prds cdx mot com dan breslau writes an amazing illustration of disconnection from reality glad to see that you agree that the current government is reticent about admitting the sovereignty of the people speaking from personal experience i have had judges illegally assume jurisdiction even after i demanded that the da prove such jurisdiction on the record and the da stood mute i have also had an appellate court uphold such action and hide behind california rules of court rule the judges of the appellate department shall not be required to write opinions in any cases decided by them but may do so whenever they deem it advisable or in the public interest that is reality i agree ronald cole e mail zippy ecst csuchico edu senior software engineer phone optx international the bill of rights void where prohibited by law
talk.politics.misc	re new funding plan for the military in article c zi d wetware com drieux wetware com drieux just drieux writes about the armed services ps maybe even privatize the organization or consider out sourcing various aspects of the dod as a part of the current down sizing who knows maybe if we finally allowed to free market to take control we will no longer have a military run by the same folks who are running the post office pps slow down and think before you flame rhetoric is an artform well uh actually i agree jeffrey s medkeff bitnet medkeffjs hiramb po box internet medkeffjs hiramb hiram edu hiram oh pale ebenezer thought it wrong to fight but u s a roaring bill who killed him thought it right
talk.politics.misc	re trickle down was was dan quayle genius garrett ingres com writes rn medtronic com robert nehls writes jason k schechner jks x holmes acc virginia edu wrote in article pf minnd c srvr engin umich edu jwh citi umich edu writes what decade did you live in unemployment dropped during the s inflation dropped during the s and interest rates dropped during the s this all may be true but we re paying for it now through the nose our current recession and some would argue the world s first off we re not in a recession we ve had a record number of months of straight economic growth even the democrats are admitting that the recession ofcicially ended in march of this months s unemployment rate in california was sure feels like a recession to me maybe we should ask the people who were laid off this january whether or not we re in a recession that was a figure that was reported in the new york times there is no official figure because the bureau of labor statistics stopped government tracking of layoffs eight months ago due to budget cuts the above information was published in harper s index harper s magazine eric smith the day dan quayle is our president is the day erics netcom com shelley winters runs with the bulls in pamplona erics infoserv com dennis miller ci
talk.politics.misc	re hate crimes laws in article apr midway uchicago edu thf midway uchicago edu writes in article apr news acns nwu edu dmeier casbah acns nwu edu douglas meier writes i think what you meant to say here was with the current mutation of the us constitution under the current police state someone may be charged multiple times for one act if the victim in question is of the right shade a single act should never merit more than on charge so if i set off a bomb in the world trade center i can only be charged with more than one murder and not the other five deaths and extensive property damage after all the bomb was a single act ted frank however teel should have mentioned that though again mr frank has come to the rescue with his cool headed reason how about one charge per victim of course i ll think about it in a few days and find a case where this doesn t apply either what the heck i don t study law i just hate lawyers douglas c meier you can t play electro magnetic golf northwestern university acns according to the rules of centrifugal this university is too commie bumblepuppy huxley brave new world lib pinko to have these views dmeier casbah acns nwu edu
talk.politics.misc	how many beibg spent at waco by batf hi wonder how much money is being spent at waco by batf are we paying because batf messed up and have made this a prestige issue girish girish kumthekar unix technical support e mail address s ugxk fnma com
talk.politics.misc	re why is tax evasion not considered unpatriotic in article c vy c t newsserver technet sg ipser solomon technet sg ed ipser writes in article mar pmafire inel gov cdm pmafire inel gov dale cook writes in article pasrg ife s gov lip s gov loren i petrich writes the title is self explanatory isaac asimov once pointed out that curious fact well since tax evasion is illegal one generally would not bother to consider whether it was unpatriotic or not how often does one think of murder as being unpatriotic perhaps a more appropriate question would be why is tax avoidance not considered unpatriotic the answer to this is simple tax avoidance is simply defined as paying the minimum tax you are legally obligated to pay there is a deeper reason taxes by their very nature are un american one need only look at the birth and history of the us to see this fact wasn t the beef with the english over taxation without representation not taxation itself from my admittedly dim recollection of us history most of the problems we americans have had with taxes have been with unfair unjust taxation schemes not with taxes themselves it s pretty hard to run a government without any means of support dale cook any town having more churches than bars has a serious social problem edward abbey the opinions are mine only i e they are not my employer s
talk.politics.misc	response fucking news reader i don t think this got posted if it did ignore it this time a response to korey begin my response in article plorlinnslt matt ksu ksu edu kkruse matt ksu ksu edu korey j kruse writes lamontg u washington edu writes well i just did a quick medline scan and came up with the following article by tashkin that reviews the literature i d probably start here document an a au tashkin d p in department of medicine university of california school of medicine los angeles ti pulmonary complications of smoked substance abuse rf review article refs why isn t this information in the faq on marijuana if we expect people to think we are telling them the truth about drugs why does this group constantly refute every negative thing about almost all drugs maybe because the claims deserve refute the above abstract lists various possible links to cannabis use unfiltered almost guaranteed and lung problems someone may get overly excited when they see that article but without actually digging up the study and seeing how the studies gathered their data it really doesn t tell you shit i m going to track down that study hopefully tomarrow i never claimed pot was more or less damageing than cigarettes i was just trying to keep ourselves honest if we are going to educate kids and adults and tell them the truth about drugs don t you think a much better approach would be to list the pro s and con s of each type of drug what justifies the truth about drugs research what sort of research correlational data can help establish a theory but it does not prove anything how can you expect someone to make a decision when the pdfa on one hand says that all drugs are absolutely bad bad bad and this newsgroup consistently refuses to admit that drugs like heroin even have negative side effects heroin is a relatively safe drug what makes it unsafe are iv administration and shit like adulterants there are side effects like withdrawal but they effect people differently i ve seen numerous posts claiming heroin has lower addiction rates that cigarettes which might be true but it is very deceiving because heroin is much more harmful drug to be addicted to than cigarettes heroin addicts are far more prone to end up in the gutter and destroy their family and friends than people addicted to just cigarettes stereotypical statement i know people who use heroin and opiates that function just fine in society this group does provide some very good information to people but i am worried that the pro legalization pro decriminalization movement is being hurt when it refuses to admit that any some drugs are very harmful name some of these drugs so we can debate about them more specifically i m all for legalization of most drugs but when someone asks me about relative risks of certain drugs or possible bad side effects i would like to know them and not be given the run around by this group which recently tried to tell me that pot was not harmful in any manner to people s lungs no no no or at least i haven t been arguing this there is not enough data to form a scientific conclusion that doesn t mean that cannabis is benign to users lungs we can form all the theories we want but they are only theories some theories are supported by more evidence than others and that makes them stronger i think it s time y all re examined your positions and try to understand that you cannot fight the pdfa by calling them a bunch of liars the hell i can t they state un justified conclusions as fact as a political strategy to stop drug use in general i somewhat see what you re saying and people like jack herer contribute to this this has been quite a big mind fuck for me recently and i ve pretty came to the conclusion that you can t trust anybody by word of mouth alone my attitude about the general population has decreased significantly gotta run to class marc andersom spot colorado edu kkruse ksuvm bitnet kkruse ksuvm ksu edu kkruse matt ksu edu
talk.politics.misc	re celebrate liberty this is as bad as the did you know japan bashing of weeks ago after finding this set of postings for the third time i hope no one shows up i don t know why fools insist on posting to every group it just agrevates people rod anderson n nzo the only acceptable substitute boulder co for brains is silence rcanders nyx cs du edu solomon short satellite n nzo on ao
talk.politics.misc	re public hearings on ballot access vote fraud and other issues hmmm intersting and long message but twice well i don t care for libertarianism but that is a philisophical disagreement not a tactical one reform of existing laws would be an awfully good idea you wouldn t believe some of the outrageous things the guardians of our two party system do to shut out dissent david matthew deane deane binah cc brandeis edu when the words fold open it means the death of doors even casement windows sense the danger amon liner
talk.politics.misc	re part re looks like clayton must retract in article ppi ginng elroy jpl nasa gov carlos beowulf jpl nasa gov carlos carrion writes does the greatly increased rates of incarceration amongst blacks show that they are dysfunctional or that the majority of them support criminal activity isn t this a matter of demographics doesn t this simply show that since criminal behaviour is common or apt to be common in the insert your favorite correct numbers here year old range and since the percentage of blacks in this range is higher than in other groups then it follows statistically that more blacks in prison is an expected result note that i haven t said anything about blacks being given stiffer or longer sentences than other groups i m sure this has to have an effect on the issue of over representation of blacks in prison blacks have the same crime report rate arrest rate and incarceration rate for violent crimes so i doubt that for violent crimes that there is any inherent bias mechanism present there is a wider discrepancy for all crimes for blacks wrt to categories interestingly enough the discrepancy is the largest in the southern united states where blacks are incarcerated well below the average in the rest of the united states which points to an anti bias against wrt blacks in any case for violent crimes and burglary and drug selling blacks are reported arrested and are present in jails prisons considering that of the population is black are black males and some percentage of that is out of the high low age groups we do have a situation where if i remember my old calculations right of the population commits almost half of the really nasty crimes blacks with similar histories crime to whites get the same sentences except in the south where they receive around less on paper there are actually people that still believe love canal was some kind of environmental disaster weird eh these opinions are mine and you can t have em but i ll rent em cheap
talk.politics.misc	re top ten reasons hillary and chealsea don t like men in uniform in article c vxvk bxr newsserver technet sg ipser solomon technet sg ed ipser wrote top ten reasons hillary and chealsea don t like men in uniform they keep saluting and stuff its embarassing copyright c edward a ipser jr ed before you ridicule the intelligence of other people learn to spell your typographical errors are indeed embarassing to those of us who read alt politics libertarian for its allegedly superior ideas and writing erich schwarz schwarze starbase caltech edu
talk.politics.misc	guilty or not guilty comparitive fault law thanks to everyone who sent replies regarding this case a few of them were very informative and helped very much once again thanks t c
talk.politics.misc	temper tantrums from the s in article apr cbnewsi cb att com gadfly cbnewsi cb att com gadfly writes now let me get this straight after a nice long rant about how people need to take personal responsibility for their economic and social lives all of a sudden s radicals such as me i guess are responsible for poor people s lifestyles tell me how that works or do you think that poor people are just too dumb to think for themselves there are many reasons for the disintegration of the family and support systems in general among this nation s poor somehow i don t think murphy brown or janis joplin is at the top of any sane person s list you want to go after my generation s vaunted cultural revolution for a lasting change for the worse try so called relevant or values education hey it seemed like a good idea at the time how were we to know you needed a real education first i mean we took that for granted the s generation were the most spoiled and irresponsible the depression had create mothers and fathers that were determined that their kids would not want for anything going overboard and creating a nation of brats consider the contrast between two famous events in july of apollo and woodstock which group had large numbers of people that could not feed themselves and reverted to the cultural level of primitives defecation in public etc and which group assembled took care of itself and dispersed with no damage no deaths no large numbers of drug problems there are actually people that still believe love canal was some kind of environmental disaster weird eh these opinions are mine and you can t have em but i ll rent em cheap
talk.politics.misc	re public hearings on ballot access vote fraud and other issues in article apr dsd es com bob waldrop f n z fidonet org bob waldrop writes announcing announcing announcing announcing public hearings on the compliance by the united states government and the governments of the states of florida louisiana arkansas missouri west virginia north carolina indiana maryland oklahoma nevada wyoming georgia and maine with certain international agreements signed by the united states government in particular the international covenant on civil and political rights signed october and the document of the copenhagen meeting of the conference on the human dimension of the conference on security and cooperation in europe june a democracy project of celebrate liberty the libertarian national convention and political expo sept salt palace convention center marriott hotel salt lake city utah these hearings will investigate charges that the governments referenced above routinely violate the political and democratic rights of political minority parties persons interested in testifying at these hearings or in submitting written or documentary evidence should contact bob waldrop p o box salt lake city ut bob waldrop f n z fidonet org examples of possible information of interest includes evidence and testimony regarding unfair or unequal treatment of political minorities physical assaults on volunteers candidates or members of minority parties arrests of minority party petitioners candidates or members while engaged in political activity structural barriers to organizing third parties and or running for office as anything other than a democrat or republican e g signature totals required for petitions to put new parties and candidates on ballots requirements for third parties that democrats and republicans are not required to meet etc taxpayer subsidies of democratic and republican candidates that are denied or not available to third parties fraudulent or non reporting of minority party vote totals e g stating totals for democratic and republican party candidates as equal to of the vote refusals by state legislatures governors and courts to hear petitions for redress of grievances from third parties and or unfavorable rulings laws discriminating against third parties refusal to allow registration as a member of a third party when registering to vote in states where partisan voter registration is optional or required vote fraud stuffing ballot boxes losing ballots fixing elections threatening candidates ballot printing errors machine voting irregularities dishonest corrupt election officials refusal to register third party voters or allow filing by third party candidates failure to print third party registration options on official voter registration documents intimidation of third party voters and or candidates and or any other criminal acts by local county state or federal election officials exclusion of third party candidates from debate forums sponsored by public schools state colleges and universities and governments including events carried on television and radio stations owned and or subsidized by governments any other information relevant to the topic information is solicited about incidents relating to all non democratic and non republican political parties such as libertarian new alliance socialist workers party natural law party taxpayers populist consumer green american communist etc as well as independent candidates such as john anderson ross perot eugene mccarthy barry commoner etc representatives of the governments referenced above will be invited to respond to any allegations relevant sections of the document of the copenhagen meeting referenced above the participating states recognize that pluralistic democracy and the rule of law are essential for ensuring respect for all human rights and fundamental freedoms they therefore welcome the commitment expressed by all participating states to the ideals of democracy and political pluralism the participating states express their conviction that full respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms and the development of societies based on pluralistic democracy are prerequisites for progress in setting up the lasting order of peace security justice and co operation they therefore reaffirm their commitment to implement fully all provisions of the final act and of the other csce documents relating to the human dimension in order to strengthen respect for and enjoyment of human rights and fundamental freedoms to develop human contacts and to resolve issues of a related humanitarian character the participating states agree on the following they consider that the rule of law does not mean merely a formal legality which assures regularity and consistency in the achievement and enforcement of democratic order but justice based on the recognition and full acceptance of the supreme value of the human personality and guaranteed by institutions providing a framework for its fullest expression they reaffirm that democracy is an inherent element of the rule of law they recognize the importance of pluralism with regard to political organizations they confirm that they will respect each other s right freely to choose and develop in accordance with international human rights standards their political social economic and cultural systems in exercising this right they will ensure that their laws regulations practices and policies conform with their obligations under international law and are brought into harmony with the provisions of the declaration on principles and other csce commitments they solemnly declare that among those elements of justice which are essential to the full expression of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all human beings are the following a clear separation between the state and political parties in particular political parties will not be merged with the state to ensure that the will of the people serves as the basis of the authority of government the participating states will ensure that votes are counted and reported honestly with the official results made public respect the right of citizens to seek political or public office individually or as representatives of political parties or organizations without discrimination relevant sections of the international covenant of october referenced above the states parties to the present covenant recognizing that the ideal of free human beings enjoying civil and political freedom and freedom from fear and want can only be achieved if conditions are created whereby everyone may enjoy his civil and political rights as well as his economic social and cultural rights considering the obligation of states under the charter of the united nations to promote universal respect for and observance of human rights and freedoms agree upon the following articles article each state party to the present covenant undertakes to respect and to ensure to all individuals within its territory and subject to its jurisdiction the rights recognized in the present covenant without distinction of any kind such as race colour sex language religion political or other opinion national or social origin property birth or other status where not already provided for by existing legislative or other measures each state party to the present covenant undertakes to take the necessary steps in accordance with its constitutional processes and with the provisions of the present covenant to adopt such legislative or other measures as may be necessary to give effect to the rights recognized in the present covenant article the states parties to the present covenant undertake to ensure the equal right of men and women to the enjoyment of all civil and political rights set forth in the present covenant article every citizen shall have the right and the opportunity without any of the distinctions mentioned in article and without unreasonable restrictions a to take part in the conduct of public affairs directly or through freely chosen representatives b to vote and to be elected at genuine periodic elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret ballot guaranteeing the free expression of the will of the electors c to have access on general terms of equality to public service in his country article all persons are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to the equal protection of the law in this respect the law shall prohibit any discrimination and guarantee to all persons equal and effective protection against discrimination on any ground such as race colour sex language religion political or other opinion national or social origin property birth or other status there will be no peace without freedom think globally act locally resist much obey little question authority comments from bob waldrop are the responsibility of bob waldrop for a good time call e mail bob waldrop f n z fidonet org snail mail p o box salt lake city utah united states of america voice phone don t blame me i voted libertarian disclaimer i speak for myself except as noted copyright rich thomson uucp uunet dsd es com rthomson rich thomson internet rthomson dsd es com irc rich pext programmer david matthew deane deane binah cc brandeis edu when the words fold open it means the death of doors even casement windows sense the danger amon liner
talk.politics.misc	re public hearings on ballot access vote fraud and other issues ack sorry for the repeat posts i thought i was posting to the newsgroup on which this appeared couldn t figure out why it wasn t appearing in my newsgroup stupid of me slap my hands bang my head against the wall sorry bloody public anouncements mumble mumble mumble david matthew deane deane binah cc brandeis edu when the words fold open it means the death of doors even casement windows sense the danger amon liner
talk.politics.misc	re public hearings on ballot access vote fraud and other issues well the message was interesting and long but twice oh well personally i loathe libertarianism but my disagreement is philisophical not tactical election law reform is a good idea you would not believe what kind of stunts the creatures of the party system are capable of pulling david matthew deane deane binah cc brandeis edu when the words fold open it means the death of doors even casement windows sense the danger amon liner
talk.politics.misc	re motor voter in article apr romulus rutgers edu kaldis romulus rutgers edu theodore a kaldis wrote when i entered st grade eisenhower was president and john f kennedy was just a relatively obscure senator from new england so how old do you think i am now ask me whether i m surprised that you haven t managed to waddle out of college after all this time lefty lefty apple com c m c d o d
talk.politics.misc	government mandated energy conservation is unnecessary and wastful study finds government mandated energy conservation is unnecessary and wastful study finds washington dc the energy tax and subsidized energy efficiency measures supported by president clinton and energy secretary hazel o leary are based on faulty assumptions a new study from the cato institute points out according to jerry taylor cato s director of natural resource studies we are not running out of sources of energy the world now has almost times the proven oil reserves it had in and twice the reserves of proven reserves of coal and natural gas have increased just as dramatically when standards of living population densities and industrial structures are controlled for the united states is no less energy efficient than japan and more energy efficient than many of the group of seven nations energy independence provides little protection against domestic oil price shocks because the energy economy is global moreover since the cost of oil represents only about percent of gross national product even large increases in the price of oil would have little impact on the overall u s economy market economies are on average times more energy efficient per of gnp than are centrally planned economies utilities subsidized energy efficiency measurs known as demand side management programs encourage free riders overuse of competing resource inputs an competitive inequities furthermore dsm programs do not reduce demand taylor concludes that government mandated energy conservation imposes unnecessary costs on consumers and wastes not conserves energy that subsidizing energy conservation technologies will stymie not advance gains in energy conservation and that central control over the lifeblood of modern society energy would transfer tremendous power to the state at the expense of the individual energy conservation and efficiency the case against coercion is no in the policy analysis series published by the cato institute an independent public policy research organization in washington dc available from cato institute second street se washington dc the cato institute founded in the cato institute is a public policy research foundation dedicated to broadening the parameters of policy debate to allow consideration of more options that are consistent with the traditional american principles of limited government individual liberty and peace to that end the institute strives to achieve greater involvement of the intelligent concerned lay public in questions of policy and the proper role of government the institute is named for cato s letters libertarian pamphlets that were widely read in the american colonies in the early th century and played a major role in laying the philosophical foundation of the american revolution despite the achievement of the nation s founders today virtually no aspect of life is free from government encroachment a pervasive intolerance for individual rights is shown by government s arbitrary intrusions into private economic transactions and its disregard for civil liberties to counter that trend the cato institute undertakes an extensive publications program that addresses the complete spectrum of policy issues books monographs and shorter studies are commissioned to examine the federal budget social security regulation military spending international trade and myriad other issues major policy conferences are held throughout the year from which papers are published thrice yearly in the cato journal in order to maintain its independence the cato institute accepts no government funding contributions are received from foundations corporations and individuals and other revenue is generated from the sale of publications the institute is a nonprofit tax exempt educational foundation under section c of the internal revenue code the cato institute second street s e washington dc
talk.politics.misc	secret purpose of falklands war secret purpose of falklands war with in visibility technology dr beter audio letter of digitized by jon volkoff mail address eidetics cerf net audio letter r is a registered trademark of audio books inc a texas corporation which originally produced this tape recording reproduced under open license granted by audio books inc this is the dr beter audio letter r k st nw washington dc hello my friends this is dr beter today is april and this is my audio letter r no it s now been almost one month since war broke out in the south atlantic on the surface it seems that it s only a dispute between argentina and great britain over the barren wind swept falkland islands and south georgia island in reality it s far more than that the so called falklands crisis is just the visible tip of a giant military operation during this month of april fierce naval battles have taken place not only in the south atlantic but also in the south pacific up to now most of the hostilities have been kept under wraps by wartime censorship on all sides but as i say these words the naval war in the southern hemisphere is about to come to the surface beginning today april a total naval and air blockade of the falklands by the royal navy has begun at the same time a counterblockade has been declared by argentina in the same area to be effective a blockade must be imposed over a period of time but the royal navy does not have that much time winter is coming on in the south atlantic and the british supply lines are overextended having come this far her majesty s navy cannot simply drop the blockade and sail away in a few weeks time without drawing blood from argentina as a result the british will be forced to undertake military operations very soon no matter how risky they may be there is also another reason why the royal navy now has no choice but to engage the argentine forces in combat that reason my friends is that the royal navy has already suffered losses in secret combat this month up to this moment there will be no way to explain away the damage which has been sustained by the british fleet only when publicly admitted fighting erupts will the british dare to admit that they have suffered battle losses to obtain that cover story the british have no choice but to sail into combat but in doing so they will be risking even heavier losses on top of those already sustained in short my friends her majesty s navy has sailed into a trap the events now unfolding in the south atlantic carry strange ironic echoes of the past for weeks now we ve been hearing countless commentators referring to the british task force as an armada quote the british of all people ought to be very uneasy with that description the original spanish armada years ago was renowned as a seemingly invincible fighting force but it came to grief in a naval disaster so complete that it changed the course of history and it was none other than the english navy that destroyed the spanish armada the original spanish armada put to sea in during the reign of england s queen elizabeth i the armada was an invasion fleet carrying thousands of crack fighting men to invade england they were met by the daring sea dogs of sir francis drake drake and his small fast ships turned the tables on the spanish armada by changing the rules of battle the english fleet was equipped with new longer range guns and it stayed upwind and out of reach from there the english pounded smashed and shattered the big ships of the mighty armada when it was all over barely half the spanish fleet was left to limp back to port drake s defeat of the spanish armada was a shock to the world it opened the door for england under queen elizabeth i to start its expansion into a truly global empire today years later history seems to have come full circle queen elizabeth ii is witnessing the dismantling of the world empire whose heyday began under queen elizabeth i and now the cultures of england and of spain are once again in confrontation once again a so called armada is preparing for invasion but this time the armada is british not spanish four hundred years ago sir francis drake was the hero of the day today the ghost of francis drake is once again on the scene the south atlantic war zone is at the eastern end of the drake passage around the southern tip of south america the defeat of the spanish armada four centuries ago broke the back of spain s naval supremacy and now the defeat of the new british armada may well break the back of what remains of the once glorious royal navy my three special topics for this audio letter are topic the military secret of south georgia island topic the secret naval war of the southern hemisphere topic the rockefeller fear campaign against nuclear war topic when the falkland islands crisis began early this month it looked at first like a tempest in a teapot for a century and a half since the islands have been controlled by great britain during that entire time british sovereignty over the falklands has been disputed by argentina there have been countless threats by argentina to seize the islands which it calls the malvinas but the threats have always come to nothing in the past and britain has never even gotten very worried about them the islands are four times as distant from argentina as cuba is from the united states and they are not much of a prize after years of occupancy the falklands are home to fewer than british settlers and a lot of sheep in short the remote falkland islands hardly look like something to fight over and yet here we are watching another crisis take place we are watching as war erupts between great britain and argentina the thatcher government is acting as if it has forgotten all about its usual preoccupation with the soviet threat at nato s doorstep instead britain is throwing almost everything it s got at argentina aircraft carriers cruisers destroyers submarines assault ships you name it luxury cruise ships have even been commissioned and turned into troop carriers overnight wave after wave of additional assault troops have been activated and sent to join the fleet even after it sailed ships and submarines have been pulled off station from normal nato duty and sent to reinforce the task force the initial ship force has grown steadily over the past several weeks into an armada numbering over over two thirds of the entire royal navy has already been deployed to the south atlantic off argentina watching all this a lot of people are asking what s this fight really all about the most popular answer suggested in the major media is oil vast deposits of oil are known to exist under the continental shelf between argentina and the falklands but that has been known for nearly years in no way does it explain the timing of the sudden military offensive by argentina this month and oil explains even less about the argentine seizure of south georgia island south georgia island is miles east of the falklands with no known oil deposits anywhere near it and compared to south georgia the falklands are an island paradise south georgia island is covered with rugged mountains treacherous valleys glaciers and semi permanent snow most of it is uninhabitable on top of all that argentina has absolutely no legal or historical claim to south georgia island in that respect it stands in sharp contrast to the falklands in the early s the falklands were occupied for a while by argentine colonists in the british expelled them and took over the island for that and other historical reasons argentina argues that the falklands really belong to argentina not britain but no such argument is possible for south georgia island it has always been controlled by britain never by argentina or spain the argentine seizure of south georgia island looks even more unreasonable from a military point of view argentina s leaders are military men and they think in military terms they were well aware ahead of time that far off south georgia island could not possibly be held for long by seizing it they were setting themselves up to absorb a military defeat as the island was retaken by britain so the question is why did argentina s military junta bother with the seemingly worthless south georgia island at all my friends the answers to all these questions are military not political or economic south georgia island possesses an enormous military secret it s a giant underground installation buried under the mountains at the northwest end of the island the real reason for the so called falkland crisis is this secret installation together with two other similar installations which i will describe shortly the secret military complexes have been in existence for many years they are not new what is new is the accelerated nuclear war timetable of the american bolshevik war planners here in washington for the past two months i ve been reporting the details of this new war plan to you as quickly as i can obtain and verify them the plan calls for nuclear war one to erupt by september of this year it is this fast approaching nuclear war threat that caused the so called falklands crisis to erupt now what is going on now is a coordinated effort to spoil part of the bolshevik grand strategy for the coming nuclear war the mutual enemies of the american bolsheviks here namely the rockefeller cartel and russia s new rulers in the kremlin are behind the present crisis they are trying to ruin phase of the project z war plan which i revealed last month that phase is to be world domination by the american bolsheviks after both russia and the united states have been destroyed in nuclear war one as i mentioned last month the key to this plan is the existence of secret weapons stockpiles in various places around the world the american bolshevik military planners here in america are working with other bolshevik agents in key military positions of other countries to set off war having done that they intend to ride out the nuclear holocaust they have caused safe and cozy in government war bunkers when the warring nations finally lie smoldering and exhausted the bolsheviks will leave the shattered remains of their host countries they will rendezvous at the secret weapons installations and bring their weapons into the open they will confront the world with the only remaining fresh up to date powerful military force on earth and using that military power they will become the undisputed rulers of the world that is they plan to do all this and they plan to pave the way for world domination very soon by setting off nuclear war one in a matter of months the rockefeller cartel and russia s new anti bolshevik rulers are working together in a race against time to try to head off the bolshevik war plan last month i mentioned that the bolsheviks here are benefitting from war preparations which were started by the rockefellers long ago it has only been about three years since the rockefellers were dislodged as the prime movers of the united states government by the bolsheviks since that time the united states government has been a house divided torn by internal power struggles between rival bolshevik and rockefeller factions but before that the united states had been dominated for decades both economically and politically by the four rockefeller brothers in the brothers launched a new long range plan for world domination it was a two prong strategy half visible and half secret which i first described long ago in audio letter no it was a plan for the united states to arm to the teeth in secret while appearing to disarm gradually without repeating all the details the basic idea was grandiose yet simple by deliberately appearing weak the rockefeller controlled united states would maneuver itself into a nuclear war with russia then the secret weapons including superweapons would be unleashed to smash russia and take over the world when they set the grand plan in motion in the rockefeller brothers were looking ahead to a nuclear war by the late s their military analysts concluded very early that the war being planned would have very different effects on the northern and southern hemispheres both superpowers the united states and the soviet union are located well up in the northern hemisphere so are the other full fledged nuclear powers great britain france red china and india by contrast the strategic targets for nuclear war in the southern hemisphere are relatively few and far between in other words it was expected that the coming nuclear war would be essentially a northern hemisphere war in an all out nuclear holocaust it is known that serious radioactive fallout will gradually spread to affect even areas not initially hit by war but there are limits to how far the war clouds can spread it was discovered long ago that there is very little mixing between the air of the northern and southern hemispheres in the northern half of our planet cold air from the north pole works its way southward towards the equator then it works its way back to the north as warm air a mirror image of this process takes up the southern half of the planet northern and southern hemisphere air meet in the equatorial zone but very little of the air changes places the military conclusion my friends is this the coming nuclear war could ruin large areas of the northern hemisphere for generations to come but if the calculations are right the southern hemisphere could escape virtually unaffected by the war this was music to the ears of the four rockefeller brothers a quick look at the globe of the world shows why the rockefeller cartel has dominated latin america ever since world war ii as i discussed in my very first monthly audio letter nelson rockefeller solidified the cartel grip on latin america during the war he accomplished this as so called coordinator of hemispheric defense for then president franklin d roosevelt so that takes care of the south american continent and its natural resources then there is the african continent there too rockefeller control was already in effect over wide areas of black africa especially south of the equator all this was thanks to the efforts of john d rockefeller iii as i detailed in audio letter no looking around the globe the most important remaining land masses from the standpoint of world domination are australia and new zealand thanks to world war ii both were wide open to the rockefellers the rockefeller brothers decided to establish secret military installations in the southern hemisphere for use after the coming war by this means they expected to become the masters of the surviving southern half of planet earth after the northern hemisphere war then as the northern hemisphere gradually recovered from the nuclear holocaust the rockefeller empire would be able to pick up the pieces in this way the third generation rockefeller brothers expected their family dynasty to inherit the earth in order to control the southern hemisphere militarily after the war some means would have to be available to project military power onto any land mass for example revolts against rockefeller domination would require troops not a blast from the beam weapons on the moon the most critical factor for postwar military domination of the world was found to be a navy a minimum of two secret naval fleets would be required one based in the south atlantic the other in the south pacific since the reserve naval fleets were to be kept secret until after the northern hemisphere nuclear war they could not be built in existing shipyards new construction facilities had to be built and they had to be hidden to hide an entire shipyard is no small task they take up a lot of space on top of that it was essential that the ships remain hidden after they were built the best way to achieve that was to combine the shipyard and naval base into one over all secret installation finally the secret naval installation had to be invulnerable to nuclear attack otherwise if its existence were ever discovered prematurely the secret navy might be wiped out the combined requirements for secrecy space and protection against attack were formidable but one day in while all these plans were still in the early stages of development the answer presented itself during a so called banking trip to sweden david rockefeller was given a tour of a unique hidden naval port the port is hollowed out from solid granite cliffs which come right down to the water the entrance to the port is a gigantic hole in the side of the cliff which can be sealed off with enormous steel doors inside this big doorway on the water a huge cavity has been hollowed out to accommodate ships the rockefeller brothers and their military adviser decided that a bigger more secret better protected version of the swedish hidden port was just what they wanted a survey of candidate sites was then initiated the site survey covered coastal areas throughout the southern hemisphere many areas were rejected very quickly because the topography was wrong other areas were rejected because they were too close to the equator still others had to be ruled out because there were too many people living nearby making the desired level of secrecy impossible finally it was essential that the sites chosen for the secret naval installations be totally secure politically at last the sites for the secret naval installations were selected in the south pacific extreme southern new zealand was selected this is what i was alluding to in audio letter no three months ago when i called attention to new zealand s extreme importance in the coming war in order to obtain the necessary space the secret new zealand naval installation had to be divided up into two sites located close together one is at the extreme southwest tip of south island where the mountain range known as the southern alps comes down virtually to the water s edge the other part of the installation is built into the northwest tip of stewart island which is off the tip of south island the stewart island facility is hollowed out within a rise known as mt anglem the new zealand location met all the requirements ever since world war ii the government of new zealand has been tied even closer to the united states than to great britain the location is far from the equator and the installations are buried deep under mountains protected from nuclear attack they are also too deep to be reached by particle beam attacks and the new zealand site is well situated to command the entire south pacific in the south atlantic an even more perfect site was found that site my friends is south georgia island it is located perfectly for naval domination of the entire south atlantic the tall rugged mountains provided a perfect location for the secret installation at the northwest tip of the mile long island it is controlled by great britain whose government like that of new zealand was willing to cooperate and south georgia island was virtually uninhabited except for a whaling station on the northeast coast the whaling station was some miles away from the secret new installation which was being built but britain took no chances in the whaling station was closed down since that time there have been no inhabitants on south georgia island except for a few dozen alleged antarctic scientists construction of the secret naval facilities two in new zealand one on south georgia island began in the early s the techniques were adapted from those used previously to build other large underground facilities such as the norad installation inside cheyenne mountain colorado however these techniques were adapted in radically new ways to achieve construction access directly from the sea instead of overland in this way the sheltering mountain was left undisturbed in appearance both during and after construction the cuts in the mountain side which were necessary to let ships in and out were kept as small as possible and were well camouflaged like the swedish hidden naval port arrangement the entrances to the secret installations can be sealed up when sealed the entrance is virtually impossible to detect unless you know exactly where it is and unlike most large construction projects there are no tailings or piles of leftover rock lying around to attract attention the man made caverns which house the secret naval installations are enormous but all the rock and debris was disposed of at sea once the secret naval facilities were built they had to be outfitted for ship construction and docksite storage the fake disarmament of the united states during the s contributed greatly to this task from to one man played a pivotal role in this elaborate rockefeller scheme he was then secretary of defense robert mcnamara all through the s mcnamara presided over the public paring back of america s visible military power this included the closing down and dismantling of entire shipyards what we were not told was where all that shipyard equipment went afterwards where it went my friends was to the new secret installations which were being outfitted in new zealand and south georgia island the secret naval installations have been used as duplication facilities to reproduce certain ships and submarines designed and built here in the united states as defense secretary caspar weinberger told congress recently it is cheaper to build two ships at a time that is especially true if the second ship is an exact duplicate of the first this has become even more true in recent years through the use of computerized manufacturing techniques the secret naval fleets which have been built at the secret installations are made up of duplicates exact duplicates of certain other ships and submarines they are all nuclear powered nuclear subs nuclear cruisers nuclear destroyers and yes nuclear aircraft carriers three of them a secret twin was built for the u s s nimitz for the u s s eisenhower and for the newly launched u s s carl vincent all have been financed through the gigantic cost overruns so called that we constantly hear about in the defense department and all three carriers have been provided with a full complement of aircraft whose manufacture was financed the same way the ships of the secret american bolshevik naval fleets are all duplicates of other nuclear powered vessels even so the secret naval ships possess one key difference last month i revealed that the so called stealth program has succeeded in developing a kind of electromagnetic invisibility shield this technique makes an object invisible from a distance by distorting light waves in its vicinity a whole new fleet of phantom war planes are now going into crash production that use this principle and my friends all of the secret american bolshevik navy ships have already been outfitted with similar stealth field equipment the stealth principle is actually easier to apply to ships than to airplanes because there is more room for the powerful equipment that generates the field after nuclear war one the secret stealth navy of the american bolsheviks would be light years ahead of any other navy left on earth it would be perfect for the intended role of world domination the rockefellers set it all in motion long ago my friends but three years ago they lost control of the united states military now it s the american bolsheviks who are in control and they are bent on war these secret naval installations have precipitated what is being called the falklands crisis topic in audio letter r no last month i described project z the new bolshevik three phase strategy for nuclear war one an elite group of american bolshevik military planners here are flushing out the plan right now at a secret war room here in washington it s a plan by which the united states will strike the first nuclear blow followed by all out thermonuclear war with russia having set off the holocaust the bolsheviks here and in certain other countries plan to rise it out safe in comfortable war bunkers finally after nuclear war one fizzles out in stalemate they plan to leave behind the ashes of the united states and her allies activating phase of their grand strategy they plan to unveil their secret weapons especially their secret naval fleets with these they plan to conquer and rule what is left of the world the united states as we know it will be dead and gone but in the eyes of the bolsheviks themselves this outcome will constitute victory up to now the nuclear war timetable which i first revealed two months ago is still on track they are still shooting for nuclear war to begin by september of this year time is fast running out the bolsheviks here are sprinting as fast as they can toward war but my friends the bolsheviks are not the only runners in this race they have two deadly enemies both of whom are equally determined to trip up the bolsheviks one enemy of the bolsheviks here is the rockefeller cartel the other enemy is the new anti bolshevik ruling clique in russia and now these two mutual enemies of the bolsheviks are pooling their efforts in certain ways in audio letter no three months ago i reported that a limited new anti bolshevik coalition was in the works between the rockefeller cartel and the russians the january meeting between haig and gromyko in geneva switzerland was a turning point in the formation of this coalition it is now a reality and is responsible for the so called falkland crisis now dominating the headlines it should be emphasized that this new relationship between the rockefeller cartel and russia falls far short of a true alliance they have very major disputes to be settled between them but for the time being they have called a truce between themselves to deal with their mutual deadly enemy the bolsheviks here in america the first priority of the russians and the rockefellers is to slow down the bolshevik preparations for imminent nuclear war if they can do that time is on the side of the rockefeller cartel in certain political movements which i discussed last summer in audio letter no a slow down in the nuclear war timetable will also give more breathing space for additional anti bolshevik actions to be implemented the joint rockefeller russian planners decided by mid february that military action against the bolsheviks was essential very quickly no other type of action had any hope of taking effect fast enough to prevent nuclear war by the end of this summer the exact details of the project z war plan are not known to either the rockefellers or the russians but the general outlines are known to be as i described last month it was decided that military action should be devised that would undermine phase of the bolshevik war plan that is the bolshevik controlled secret naval installations and fleets in the southern hemisphere should be attacked and crippled by working together the rockefeller cartel and the russians were able to devise an attack plan which neither could have carried out alone the rockefeller group who built and originally controlled these bases provided detailed intelligence about the best way to attack them the russians with their enormous military machine provided the muscle to actually carry out the attack it was essential to devise a scheme that would enable both secret fleets in the south atlantic and south pacific to be attacked survival intact of either fleet would leave the bolshevik war plan still workable military analysts concluded very quickly that a direct assault on the new zealand facilities was out of the question there was no combination of commandos frogmen or other military force which could possibly keep an attack secret from the outside world any attack on the new zealand bases would set off the very war which the rockefellers and russians want to prevent but the situation in the south atlantic was a different matter in a way the greatest asset of south georgia island was also its achilles heel the extreme isolation which protected the secrecy of the south georgia base also made a covert military assault feasible the key lay with argentina and her long standing claims to the falkland islands as i mentioned in topic the rockefeller cartel has dominated all of latin america for decades cartel operatives were sent to argentina to work out a deal with the government military junta there the historic dispute over the falkland islands was to be used to provide a ruse a military cover to enable the south georgia base to be attacked the argentine generals were not told everything about the situation by any means but they were told enough to make clear what they were to do as an inducement to cooperate the argentine leaders were promised handsome rewards they were guaranteed that after the shooting was over the falkland islands would remain in argentine hands this guarantee included the promise of covert military assistance as needed against the royal navy and to bolster the troubled argentine economy it was promised that the rockefeller cartel will help develop the immense offshore oil reserves with these combined promises of military glory and financial rewards the argentine military junta agreed to the plan on march argentina carried out act in the joint attack plan a group of argentine scrap metal merchants of all things landed at the abandoned old whaling station on south georgia island supposedly they were there to dismantle the old buildings and cart them off to sell while they were at it they also raised the argentine flag over the work site the british always nervous about south georgia island promptly reacted as expected the british antarctic survey ship endurance put marines ashore they drove off the scrap merchants and tore down the argentine flag the incident provided the desired excuse for the argentine junta to bring the simmering year old falklands dispute to a boil from time to time in the past argentina has claimed that south georgia is part of the falklands because it is administered that way by britain that argument is very flimsy but it now came in very handy it was nothing new to hear this from argentine leaders so there was no hint of what was really afoot during late march argentine military forces started assembling for an assault on the falklands nothing new thought the british high command argentina has carried out threatening maneuvers in the past many times it was believed that they were about to do it again but on april argentine forces did the unexpected after many past false alarms this time they actually invaded and seized the islands all argentine public statements emphasized the long standing historical claims to the falklands themselves but just for good measure the next day a small argentine force also seized far off south georgia island the force was so small that it gave the appearance initially that it was just a side show from argentina s point of view however the small contingent of royal marines were overpowered and bundled off the island along with a group of alleged scientists that was the moment of payoff in the joint rockefeller russian attack plan thanks to the elaborate distraction staged by the argentine forces a special commando team got onto the island undetected based on the detailed rockefeller information about the base the team moved to a location on the mountain directly above the cavernous secret base special high speed drilling equipment was set up by the rockefeller members of the team while the russian members concentrated on military defense by late that evening april the military high command in london finally learned what was really taking place the secret south georgia base was under attack by virtually the only means possible the joint rockefeller russian team were drilling a shaft down through the mountain toward the hollowed out cavern inside it was only a matter of time until their drill would break through the ceiling of the giant hidden naval base once the hole was made the next step was obvious the rockefeller russian team would put a weapon of some kind through the hole the best guess was that it would be a nerve gas the shock waves that went through the highest levels of the british government on the evening of april can hardly be described my friends the thatcher government like the so called reagan administration here in america is bolshevik controlled that s why margaret thatcher always says me too any time the reagan administration says or does anything against russia both governments are party to the secret nuclear war plan in complete betrayal of the people of their respective countries and on the evening of april they suddenly discovered that their precious war plan was in deep deep trouble immediately the thatcher government started assembling a naval armada to sail for the south atlantic haste was the order of the day the drilling on south georgia island was proceeding around the clock the best estimates were that the drilling would break through into the roof of the naval base in about three weeks on or about april if help did not reach south georgia by then the secret installation might be doomed the forces stationed at the installation itself were unable to defend themselves under the circumstances their mighty naval ships were ships in a bottle they did not dare open the bottle to sail out to fight because the russian commandos were armed with tactical and nuclear weapons to open the blast proof entrance doors would be suicide on april just two days after south georgia island was seized some naval ships began moving out of british ports the same day lord carrington was sacked as foreign minister he was forced to resign my friends because he had assisted the rockefeller attack plan by downplaying the argentine attack preparations that same day april new zealand the home of the other secret naval fleet broke diplomatic relations with argentina the two hidden new zealand facilities had been placed on red alert as a precautionary measure all submarines at the twin base were ordered to sea several surface ships were already at sea undergoing sea trials but that still left seven major ships inside the hidden twin naval base including one of the nuclear aircraft carriers i mentioned earlier on that busy day of april argentina s foreign minister costa mendez was at the united nations in new york he was alarmed by the deployment of such a large part of the royal navy costa mendez hurried here to washington to seek reassurances from certain officials he got them for the next two weeks or so the news was filled with stories about the allegedly slow movement of the british fleet while negotiations went on that my friends was only a cover story the royal navy was actually joining up and moving as rapidly as possible toward south georgia island if the task force arrived in time to save the secret base a major battle was likely the official stories about slow movement of the british armada were intended to give a cushion of time for that battle if need be the fleet would have several days to retake south georgia island then it could move on to arrive near the falklands on the announced schedule in this way the crucial importance of south georgia island would be hidden and the big secret preserved it was initially expected that advance elements of the british fleet would reach the vicinity of south georgia island within two weeks that would have been soon enough to attack the joint rockefeller russian commando team and stop the drilling before it was completed but russian cosmospheres and submarines made a shambles of the plan key advance elements of the south georgia attack contingent left ascension island early april two days before it was announced officially shortly after they did so they ran into trouble russian cosmospheres and attack submarines closed in on a single ship which was critical to the planned counterassault on south georgia island the cosmospheres bombarded the bridge and combat information center of the ship with neutron radiation in moments the ship was without any command its communications and radar silenced then a russian sub closed in and quickly finished off this key british ship with torpedoes it broke apart with secondary explosions and sank rapidly so far as is known there were no survivors this unexpected shock in the mid atlantic produced two results both important first it caused a slowdown in the race toward the south atlantic by the british armada the task force had to be regrouped into a configuration better suited for an enroute defense but that cost valuable time public announcements from london about the progress of the fleet reflected this slowdown the timetable for arrival on battle stations near the falklands started stretching out longer and longer all this bought extra time for the joint commando team on south georgia island the drilling continued the other result of the sinking was equally important word was flashed to the south pacific stealth navy to prepare for possible action it was obvious that the russian navy was getting involved in the atlantic which meant that the royal navy could be in big trouble during the dead of night early april the seven stealth ships put to sea from their twin secret bases in southern new zealand they deployed to a secret operational headquarters area in the antipodes islands miles southeast of new zealand their electromagnetic shields were operating to provide protection from attack these shields make it impossible to communicate with the outside world or even to see it as i explained last month but once they arrived at the antipodes the stealth ships hooked up to buoys equipped with shielded communication cables to the island headquarters the antipodes headquarters in turn was in constant touch with the south georgia base by way of a transoceanic cable around the tip of south america the deployment of the available ships of the south pacific stealth fleet was exactly what the joint rockefeller russian planners had hoped for the ships had been flushed out from their essentially invulnerable hiding place in new zealand the british ship s sinking of april was also followed by other events on april the argentine navy started moving out of port the same day alexander haig arrived again in buenos aires supposedly he was there as a diplomat but in reality he was there as a general dealing with generals haig is the top governmental operative of the rockefeller cartel as i have revealed in the past he was making sure that the argentines did not get cold feet and back down at that critical moment four days later april haig left for washington as he boarded his plane haig somberly told reporters time is running out and so it was my friends for the secret south georgia base the very next day april the drill broke through into the hollowed out cavern of the naval base bolshevik military analysts in london had not expected that it could be completed until at least the following weekend the british fleet was still out of range the weapon which the commando team inserted down through the long hole was a small compact russian neutron bomb when it was detonated inside the confines of the huge artificial cave the effects were devastating the intense radiation instantly killed everyone inside the base also the heat and blast effects of the bomb are believed to have damaged all the ships inside sufficiently to badly disable them meanwhile russian cosmospheres and submarines were converging on the stealth ships which were near the antipodes islands awaiting orders from a distance the ships were invisible to the eye due to their protective shields which also protect against beam weapon attack but they were sitting ducks for the tactics which the russians employed floating overhead the cosmospheres located the seven ships using their psychoenergetic range finding equipment known as prf as i have reported in the past there is no method known by which prf can be jammed the cosmospheres radioed the exact locations of the ships to the attack submarines the subs were armed with special non homing non nuclear torpedoes designed to explode on impact more sophisticated torpedoes would have been thrown off course or detonated prematurely by the protective shield of each ship but these simple torpedoes just cruise right through each invisibility field to strike the ship and explode within minutes after the attack began all seven bolshevik stealth ships were on their way to the bottom and with them went their bolshevik commanders and mercenary crews collected from around the world the south pacific action took place just after sunset local time the time here in washington was around p m april that evening secretary of state haig was seen briefly in public with the new british foreign minister francis pym pym was wearing the artificial pseudo smile which diplomats are taught always to display in public but not haig haig was grinning from ear to ear and no wonder the joint rockefeller russian military operation had been a brilliant success the secret bolshevik south atlantic fleet had been virtually wiped out bottled up inside south georgia island and the south pacific fleet while not totally wiped out had been badly crippled by working together the rockefeller cartel and the russians had won the secret naval war of the southern hemisphere topic as i say these words news reports give the impression that war is about to erupt in the south atlantic but the real war in the southern hemisphere is already over what we are watching now is the beginning of its bloody aftermath that aftermath is the battle for the falkland islands they have been promised to argentina as a reward for her role in the secret war at this moment the bolsheviks here in washington are pressing for a public announcement that the united states will side with britain as soon as that takes place military action will heat up fast around the falklands britain has no choice but to fight she has already suffered casualties which cannot be explained without a public battle but by fighting the bolsheviks in britain are running the risk of a humiliating and tragic defeat for the royal navy meanwhile the rockefeller strategists here are now concentrating on a fast building anti nuclear war campaign on all sides now we are hearing about the so called nuclear freeze movement there are documentaries articles publicity of all kinds to sensitize us to the terrors of nuclear war in recent months there have even been referenda popping up on election ballots dealing with the nuclear war issue medical doctors are banding together to warn the public about what would happen if there were a nuclear war we are being told that all this is just popping up spontaneously we are now years into the nuclear age and nothing like this has ever gained so much momentum before yet now we are supposed to believe that millions of americans have spontaneously gotten the same ideas at the same time if you believe that my friends i give up movements like this never and i mean never develop without leadership organization and money and plenty of it what we are watching is the rockefeller public relations machine at work as i ve explained in the past the rockefeller cartel cannot afford to let a nuclear war take place if it does they will lose everything because they are not in a position to control it instead the deadly enemies of the rockefeller cartel the bolsheviks here will win out if there is a war and so the rockefeller faction is now doing everything in its power to prevent a nuclear war the present anti nuclear war orientation of the rockefeller cartel creates certain temporary common interests between them and russia but as russia s new rulers know very well this does not spring from any great moral perspective on the part of the rockefeller group it s purely a matter of practical necessity right now for the rockefellers the russians regard the united states as a house divided and they are exploiting that division by working in careful ways with the rockefellers their first priority is to rid the world of the deadly bolshevik menace of all out even suicidal nuclear war but once that is done they know that there will be a day of reckoning with the rockefeller cartel some day the rockefeller group is working toward a definite objective with their new anti nuclear war propaganda that objective is renewed power and power that moves them closer to their old dream of world government the bolsheviks here have unwittingly provided fertile ground for the powerful new rockefeller antiwar campaign under bolshevik control the so called reagan administration has become so hawkish that it s scaring people the rockefeller antiwar campaign is designed to capitalize on that latent fear as a tool of power these days the smell of war is in the air the falklands crisis is helping to make that more intense the rockefeller propaganda machine is now paving the way for the argument that surrender of sovereignty is the only way to avoid war a new super united nations of sorts is now in the works to fill the bill it will have teeth as presently envisioned the new organization will be based in geneva switzerland the working name though this may be changed is the world nonproliferation council the plan is to bring it into being as the outgrowth of nuclear nonproliferation treaties but its true purpose will be to use fear the fear of war to control us all last minute summary now it s time for my last minute summary in this audio letter i have reported on the reasons behind the so called falkland islands crisis the crisis erupted because of secret bolshevik controlled naval installations in the southern hemisphere these have been attacked by joint action of the rockefeller cartel and the russians in an attempt to slow down the nuclear war timetable the attacks were successful but the results remain to be seen one result though is that the royal navy has now been drawn into a trap britain s waterloo at sea may well be at hand my friends two factions are struggling for control over our united states the rockefeller cartel and the bolsheviks they differ in style but both seek to control us through fear if we are ever to rise above their trickery it must be through the power of our lord jesus christ our only hope as the scripture tells us our lord has not given us the spirit of fear but of power of love and of a sound mind we must learn to wage peace as our lord declared long ago blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called sons of god until next month god willing this is dr beter thank you and may god bless each and every one of you
talk.politics.misc	re supply sider lightbulb joke lip s gov loren i petrich writes there was once the following joke how many supply siders does it take to screw in a light bulb none they let the free market do it if the free market places an attractive price on the screwing in of a light bulb you can bet your bottom dollar that the light bulb will most certainly get screwed in and most promptly at that too the views expressed herein are theodore a kaldis my own only do you seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe that a major university rutgers remus rutgers edu kaldis as this would hold such views
talk.politics.misc	re how many homosexuals are there too many the views expressed herein are theodore a kaldis my own only do you seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe that a major university rutgers remus rutgers edu kaldis as this would hold such views
talk.politics.misc	re why not concentrate on child molesters in article apr lmpsbbs comm mot com bhv areaplg corp mot com bronis vidugiris says in article pdxgate uucp a cb rigel cs pdx edu chris bertholf writes mcartwr auvm american edu martina cartwright writes the official and legal term for rape is the crime of forcing a female to submit to sexual intercourse please supply me with some references i was not aware that all states had the word female in the rape statutes i am sure others are surprised as well i know thats how it works in practice nice n fair not but was unaware that it was in the statutes as applying to females only uniformly throughout the u s i agree mostly with chris it is unfortunately imo true that the fbi figures for rape based on the uniform crime report report only female rapes however some states such as illinois are not tabluated because they refuse to comply with this sexist definition the worms crawl in the worms crawl out the worms post to the net from your account insofar as several liberal jurisdictions are concerned the essential elements of rape are gender neutral nonetheless i decided to provide a number of references to support my original argument black s law dictionary every law student lawyer s friend defines rape as unlawful sexual intercourse with a female without her consent the unlawful knowledge of a woman by a man forcibly and against her will the model penal code the statute proposed by the national conference of commissioners of uniform state laws or other organization for adoption by state legislatures defines rape as a male who has sexual intercourse with a female not his wife is guilty of rape if he a compels her to submit by force or by threat of imminent death mpc a indeed the following jurisdictions states have statutes similar to the mpc alabama code of ala a arkansas ark stat ann district of columbia d c code georgia o f g a idaho idaho code maryland md ann code art mississippi miss code ann new york check case law n y c l s penal north carolina n c gen stat puerto rico l p r a ta martina
talk.politics.misc	clinton press availability with russian press the white house office of the press secretary vancouver british columbia for immediate release april press conference by the president with russian press canada place vancouver british columbia p m pdt q i had two questions for both presidents so you could probably answer for boris too laughter the president i ll give you my answer then i ll give you yeltsin s answer laughter q the first is that this is the meeting of the presidents so the money that s being promised is government money and naturally it s going to be distributed through the government but you ve indicated that three quarters are going to be going to businesses so the question is how the russian businesses themselves are going to be consulted if ever what are the priorities because there are several association of russian businessmen existing already so will they be invited to participate in setting up priorities for investment this is the first and second to you we know that polls public polls in america do not show that americans are very enthusiastic about giving this aid like newsweek polls say that about percent don t approve it and new york times published that percent support if it just prevents civil war percent if it fosters democratic reform and only percent if it just personally supports yeltsin how are you going to sort of handle this problem that americans themselves are not very enthusiastic thank you q i have a question i m sorry is there going to be a translation of everything into russian no just the answers just the answers okay the president the answer to the first question is it depends on what kind of aid we re discussing for example the funds that will be set up for financing new businesses will obviously go to those businesses who apply and who seem to be good risks and make the application the privatization fund will be used to support the privatization of existing public enterprises then there are some other general funds in the democracy corps and other things which people in russia will have some influence over the distribution of with regard to your second question let me say that i would think that there would be people in both countries who would not feel too warmly toward simply the american government giving money to the russian government there s opposition to that in russia and in our country throughout our whole history there has been an opposition to foreign aid of all kinds that is this has nothing to do with russia if you look at the whole history of america any kind of aid program has always been unpopular what i have tried to tell the american people is is this is not an aid program this is an investment program that this is an investment in our future we spent trillion trillion on armaments on soldiers and other investments because of the cold war now with a democratic government in russia with the newly independent states the remainder of them working on a democracy and struggling to get their economies going it seems to me very much in our interest to make it possible to do whatever we can for democracy to survive for the economy of russia to grow because of the potential for trade and investment there and for us to continue the effort to reduce nuclear weapons and other elements of hostility on both sides on our side and on the russian side so i don t see this as an aid program this is an investment for the united states this is very much in the interest of the united states the things i announced today the second stage of the program which i hope to put together next week in my view are things that are good for my country and for the taxpayers and workers of my country russia is a very great nation that needs some partnership now some common endeavor with other people who share her goals but it would be a great mistake for anyone to view this as some sort of just a charity or an aid issue that s not what it is it s an investment for america and it s a wonderful investment like all investments there is some risk but there s far less risk with a far greater potential of return than the trillion we spent looking at each other across the barrier of the cold war q mr president first of all thank you very much indeed for coming here and talking to us in the memory of the living correspondents this is the first time an american president is doing this to the russian press corps so it s kind of a very measured breakthrough i have two questions one in your introductory remarks of the other press conference you mentioned in brief that you discussed the start ii and start i issues could you tell us did you reach an agreement with president yeltsin as to what might be done in order to have ukraine join the ratification of start i and the npt regime and my second question is how confident you are that the united states congress would be eager to support you in lifting jackson vanik and other restrictions inherited from the cold war president clinton first we discussed the issue of ukraine with regard to start i and npt and generally with regard to the need to proceed to have the other independent states all be non nuclear but also to have the united states develop strong relationships with them we know that one thing that we could do that would increase i think the willingness of the ukraine to support this direction is to successfully conclude our own negotiations on highly enriched uranium because that would provide not only an important economic opportunity for russia but also for ukraine and it would show some reaching out on our part but we agreed that basically the people who signed off on the lisbon protocol have got to honor what they did and we agreed to continue to press that i myself have spent a good deal of time trying to reassure ukraine s leaders specifically the president and the foreign minister that i want strong ties with ukraine that the united states very much wants a good relationship with ukraine but that in order to do what we need to do together to strengthen the economy of ukraine and to have the united states be fully supportive the commitment to ratify start i and to join the npt regime is critical what was the second question the president with regard to jackson vanik and cocom i would make two points first i have agreed with the republican and democratic leaders in the congress that we will as soon as i return have a list of all the legislative and other restrictions some of them are regulatory in nature imposed on relations between the united states and russia that are legacies of the cold war and we will see whether they re how many of them we could agree to do away with right now at least among the leadership of the congress with regard to jackson vanik i think there will be an openness to change the law if the congress is convinced there are in fact no more refusniks no more people who wish to emigrate who are not being allowed to if the fact is that there is no one there who would have been who the law was designed to affect then i think that the desire to keep the law will be much less with regard to cocom my guess is and it s nothing more than a guess that the leadership of congress and indeed my own advisers might prefer to see some sort of phased movement out of the cocom regime but i think they would be willing to begin it in the fairly near future q mr clinton when i read your speech in annapolis i got the impression that you have a completely different personal and i stress that personal not political approach towards russia compared to the approach of mr bush could you formulate in a few words what is the difference between you as a personality and your approach the difference between your approach to russia and the approach of mr bush and who made you why did you cite akhmatova in the last part of your speech the president let me say first i do not wish to compare myself with president bush or anyone else i can t say what was in his heart about russia i can say that since i was a boy i have been personally fascinated with the history the music and the culture and the literature of russia i have been thrilled by russian music since i was a serious student of music for more than years now i have read major russian novelists and many of your poets and followed your ballet and tried to know as much as i could about your history and i went to the soviet union but it was then the soviet union you may know it was a big issue in the last presidential campaign that i spent the first week of alone in moscow and did not return again until three days before mr yeltsin was elected president but all that time i was away i was following events there very closely and hoping for the day when we could be genuine partners so i have always had a personal feeling about russia i remember for example a lot of you know i like music very much one of the most moving experiences for me as a musician was when leonard bernstein took the new york philharmonic to moscow and played shostakovich s fifth symphony to the russians and he played the last movement more rapidly than anyone had ever played it before because it was technically so difficult that is something i followed very closely when it occurred these are things that have always had a big impact on my life and i had just always hoped that someday if i ever had the chance to i could play a role in seeing our two countries become closer partners applause the press thank you end p m pdt
talk.politics.misc	clinton public schedule of the president the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april public schedule of the president tuesday april am est president clinton delivers remarks with egyptian president mubarek the east room the white house open press future schedule of the president april president clinton meets with japanese prime minister miyazawa the white house april president clinton meets with italian president amato the white house
talk.politics.misc	re losers was re stop putting down white het males in article tecsun tec army mil riggs descartes etl army mil bill riggs writes in article apr galileo cc rochester edu as b uhura cc rochester edu tree of schnopia writes in apr jato jpl nasa gov michael neuron jpl nasa gov michael rivero writes i don t know what you as a white male did i do know what white males as a class have done they ve invented the light bulb the automobile the airplane printing with movable type photography computers the electric guitar anasthesia rocket powered space flight the computer electricity the telephone tv motion pictures penecillin sp telescopes nylon and the x ray machine two glaring errors here first white males don t do anything as a class individual white males invented those things which means nothing to white males as a whole second you neglected to mention charles manson hitler mccarthy jack the ripper ted bundy and a whole slew of individuals who have done horrible evil things if white males can take the credit for our fellow white males boons we must also take the blame for our fellows blights i claim we deserve neither credit nor blame for these things white males need to wake up and realize that they re being unfair yes but everyone else needs to wake up and realize that being unfair right back is disgusting racist and sexist why can t we learn to treat everyone fairly without generalizing what stupidity gene makes this so difficult i d like to buy the world a clue the word that is missing in this whole discourse is not the b word or the h word or even the n or w words it is the l word loser that s right when we boil all the crap out of this argument it is all about winning and losing and nothing else let me explain in the meantime there is guilt for winning maybe a fear that one doesn t deserve one s bounty or success so there is a kinder and gentler type of politician these days bill clinton affirmative action and lots of discourse about people who don t get it for those of us in the winning business this kind of talk is mildly irritating but there is still no suggestion of losing who is d fens anyway the answer is as plain as the horn rims on your face the guy is michael douglas posing as a loser this is known as controversial casting but that baggy short sleeved white shirt sure does look natural on mike doesn t it gordon gekko will never look the same though woody always dressed that way did we really expect gekko to take it easy and enjoy that kind of wardrobe without putting up a fuss what we are starting to lose sight of is that bashing d fens is the same game as bashing that poor african american slug that clint eastwood used to blow away all the time as that arch wasp male gender george c scott declaimed americans traditionally love to win they love a winner and will not tolerate a loser and so on since we are talking in theory and opinion then i ll put in my first a rebuttle personally i love under dogs unlike bandwagon jumpers i abandon teams when they start winning people that cheer for winners just because they are winners are insecure people who are afraid to be associated with something negative the political implications are simple if as many socialists and democrats do you consider society a finite pie to a apportioned in some equitable way then you have to worry about who is a winner and who is a loser to tell whose side you are on that could be black women today asian homosexuals tommorrow and yes indeed white men some yet to be determined day when the balance of the pie has finally swung against that minority on this one point i agree the reason that people bash wasp s is because they have been on top for a long time whoever is on top is going to oppress whoever is below them so that they can stay on top if hannibal had pushed on to rome after his victory at cannae we might all be bashing the blacks for oppressing us peacefull white people for all these centuries i seriously doubt that if the blacks had conquered the world that they would have treated their colonies any better worse than the whites did the white race did some unspeakable things to the other races of the world but they only did what any other conquering race would have done ie khan the real question is should we carry over that blame to the present generation who didn t participate in the crimes would it do any good has it done bosnia any good they are fighting wars that stopped hundreds even thousands of years ago my opinion is if there are inequities now then let s change them but don t blame me for what my ancestors did it wouldn t settle anything anyway either way you go the way of the winner is no longer the way to be popular at least after you graduate from high school but you ll still be popular at high school reunions but it beats being a nerd as i would imagine michael douglas would now agree and in the long run it is the only way to go that s where you are dead wrong you don t join up on a side just because they are winning that makes you spineless winning in high school and after high school is still the best way to be popular but it doesn t make you right all the best causes in history were loosing causes with only a couple exceptions winning only makes a difference to other people not to yourself and what good is the opinions of other people if they only care how you appear ie a winner if you can t beat them fight them every inch of the way bill r at that moment the bottom fell out of authur s mind garrett johnson his eyes turned inside out his feet began to leak out garrett ingres com of the top of his head the room folded flat around him spun around shifted out of existence and left him sliding into his own naval douglas adams
talk.politics.misc	clinton press briefing by george stephanopoulos the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april press briefing by george stephanopolous the briefing room a m edt mr stephanopoulos as you know the president is soon to be on his way on amtrack to camden yards he ll be throwing out the first pitch q it s marc the maryland area transit it s not amtrack mr stephanopoulos oh it s not amtrack well he s going from union station you re right excuse me q george what exactly are you prepared to do to break the logjam with senate mr stephanopoulos well as you know there are discussions between senator mitchell and senator dole this morning and i think that the president is going to continue to make the point that he believes that our investment package our jobs package needs to be passed as quickly as possible we need this investment for summer jobs for immunization for highway construction for the important programs that will put people back to work right away this summer and the president continues to believe his program should be passed q will he compromise that s the question mr stephanopoulos well as you know the discussions are going on this morning in the senate betwen senator mitchell and senator dole let s see what they come up with but the president believes his jobs program should go forward q george would the president be willing to accept billion for one year which apparently appears to be the compromise being offered by mr stephanopoulos well i don t know what is being offered by either side the senate discussions are going on right now let s see what happens today q would he go that far no matter what the republicans have offered so far would he go that far billion per year mr stephanopoulos the president believes that his program should be passed at this time clearly we re going to be willing to listen to what the senators might or might not be able to come up with but i m not going to get into figures right now let s see what happens q it s reasonable to assume isn t it from what has happened so far that a compromise is going to be necessary in order to get a vote mr stephanopoulos well the republicans seem more intrested in stopping progress on the president s jobs bill than in doing something to create mr stephanopoulos well the republicans seem more interested in stopping progress on the president s jobs bill than in doing something to create real action real jobs this summer for the american people i think there s no question about that there s been some frustration of legislative activity over the last few days q so you ll need to compromise to get your package through mr stephanopoulos we ll see what happens with the conversations between senator mitchell and senator dole this morning q prepared to compromise mr stephanopoulos the president s prepared to listen to what senator mitchell has to say this morning after his meeting with senator dole q does he feel that he has been defeated in his mr stephanopoulos not in the least in fact he s been very successful so far in the beginning of his term q how mr stephanopoulos he passed his budget in record time in six weeks and it s a budget which reduces the deficit by billion over five years and it s a budget which provides for important investments in our future right now we ve also had strong passage of his jobs program through the house simply because a minority of republicans in the senate choose to perpetuate gridlock and hold up action on the president s jobs program is not a sign that he is not succeeding overall q he can t beat this can he q the fact is they can do that mr stephanopoulos well the republicans can stop action there s no question about that q what are you going to do about it q george what do you know about these alleged notes taken by boris yeltsin during one of the meetings in which it appears that the president told boris yeltsin not to trust the japanese that when they say yes they mean no mr stephanopoulos i think that s a complete misreading of what happened at the meeting the context of the conversation was that president clinton was actually reassuring president yeltsin at the time about his conversations with prime minister miyazawa over the kuril islands and the prime minister s belief that japan would play a constructive role in the g process i mean this was a casual comment about japanese courtesy and etiquette but overall it was in the context of a conversation where he was reassuring president yeltsin that he believed the japanese were serious about their commitment to the g process q are you saying that the president said that when the japanese say yes they mean no mr stephanopoulos that s not i don t know the exact words and there was a much longer discussion about he did say something along the lines that he believes that on this issue prime minister miyazawa intends to really go forward with the g process q have there been any attempts to explain this to the japanese because apparently the japanese press has picked this up and there appears to be mr stephanopoulos i ve seen the reports in the japanese press and it actually does put the situation in context it does talk about the japanese understanding the japanese points of view i don t think it s going to be a problem i believe that there may have been some diplomatic context just to clear things up but i m not positive q george was the specific comment that was made specific to the kuril island situation or was it a general observation on japanese etiquette mr stephanopoulos the discussion was about q the specific comment is what i m asking about that has alleged to have been translated from the russian notes when the japanese say yes they mean no mr stephanopoulos well it was a combination i mean i don t think that s the whole sentence i think that the specific comment was a broad general observation followed up by a specific finish to the sentence where he said in this case he believes that prime minister miyazawa means to keep the commitment q was he saying it facetiously first mr stephanopoulos i think it was just a casual observation q and then you say diplomatic contacts were made to clear it up has the president sent a message mr stephanopoulos no i don t think the president spoke i believe that secretary christopher has made some calls but i m not sure exactly how many q well this obviously is a bigger deal than you re making it out to be if christopher has had to make some calls mr stephanopoulos no no it was just that we got the reports in vancouver and the secretary wanted to make sure that it was understood and make sure there was absolutely no mr stephanopoulos reports in vancouver and the secretary wanted to make sure that it was understood and make sure there is absolutely no misunderstanding and i don t believe there is on q what is our position about the japanese that they may have to say one thing but actualy mean another mr stephanopoulos no the position on the japanese is as the president stated to president yeltsin throughout the two days he said that he had had a good conversation with prime minister miazawa prior to the summit he reiterated the u s position the long standing support for the japanese position on the kuril islands but also reiterated prime minister miazawa s commitment to move forward on the g process and to play a constructive role and i think president yeltsin was very glad to hear that q after listening to secretary christopher on iraq for the last few days i m a little confused what is the u s policy do you want to see saddam hussein overturned mr stephanopoulos it s the same policy that secretary christopher has reiterated and all of the u s officials have reiterated we expect full and complete and unequivocal compliance with all u n resolutions right now we do not have that compliance q throwing it out further that if iraq complies saddam can t stay in office mr stephanopoulos right i think that that s our judgment is that it is not possible for saddam hussein to comply with the resolutions and stay in power but the important point is that we expect compliance by iraq with all u n resolutions and we will continue to demand it q and are you concerned the iran will become the dominant power in the area mr stephanopoulos secretary christopher has also spoken to iran over the last several days and he says we also expect full iranian compliance with all international norms and stopping support of terrorism q that s a very glib statement that he won t stay in power if he complies with u n resolutions on what logic do you base that mr stephanopoulos right now saddam hussein is not complying with the u n resolutions at all he is not respecting the rights of his people as is required by the u n resolution he is not fully complying with all the resolutions regarding inspections he is not fully complying with all the resolutions regarding armaments q well when do you think that if he did comply he would be out of power mr stephanopoulos well right now his power rests on the repression of his people if he stopped doing that it would make it more difficult for him to stay in power q george back on the stimulus package why is it that you and the president accuse the republicans of playing pure politics and perpetuating gridlock why is it that what evidence do you have that they just don t have a genuine idealogical difference with you that s in good faith mr stephanopoulos well the fact that several times in the past the republicans many of the ones who are now leading the fight for the filibuster have supported the very funding they now seek to stop most especially the highway funding q george in regards to that some of the moderate republicans said that the white house erred by not being more open to them during the while the plan was put together that they had one sort of proforma meeting between the white house and the senate republicans and that was it does the administration look back and thinks perhaps it could have done a better job of working with some mr stephanopoulos well i m not sure that it s true that there was only one meeting i mean the president met with the republican leadership on at least two occasions before the introduction of his package he met with the entire senate republican caucus also for lunch and went up there we are continually in contact with as many republicans as we can find who have an interest in the president s package we are interested in what they have to say as well but we believe that this program is important and we re going to continue to fight for it q your all or nothing do it with the democrats alone strategy did you maybe miscalculate the ability to get it through mr stephanopoulos well i mean i think that there is no question that under the senate rules a determined minority can frustrate activity i mean there is just no question about that you only need plus one to keep going plus one to keep going and to stop any action and that s what the republicans are doing q going to rethink the way you attempt to get other things passed as you go through this process for the rest of the summer q work with republicans and try to woo some republicans into your camp mr stephanopoulos i think we re going to continue to look for the support of republicans whenever we can get it on the president s intiatives q but on this one how are you going to do it differently than you did it on this one because on this one you really did stiff the republicans from the beginning and made it clear that it was a democratic majority that would get this through and could get it through and you really didn t need republican votes are you going to take a different tack when you have to go for particular votes when you have to go through mr stephanopoulos i can t see into the future and understand every possible turn in the legislative road clearly the president s going to continue to reach out when he can q you don t have any regrets then about the way you have handled it up to now and you don t plan any changes in your approach in dealing with the republicans in congress based on this experience mr stephanopoulos obviously the president would like his package passed as quickly as possible and he s going to continue to press for that we will continue to reach out to republicans there s not question about that and we ll continue to reason with them and try and find appropriate avenues for cooperation in this case the republicans have chosen to unify around a filibuster around a plan to frustrate action not a plan to move forward q they re being denied any other legislative means of putting their proposals forward mr stephanopoulos i think they re being q any ideas mr stephanopoulos i think their amendments are being defeated i don t know that they re being denied q to present them mr stephanopoulos that s not exactly true i mean they get the votes q that theirs can be passed though by the parliamentary rules under which they re playing mr stephanopoulos unless they get a majority in support all the way around no that s not exactly true q george one more on iraq is the administration backing any of the iraqi opposition grooming any new leadership q backing any of the iraqi leadership mr stephanopoulos oh i again we re pressing for iraqi compliance i don t know if we can get into the business of grooming leadership i believe there have been some contacts at some levels with iraqi opposition groups i don t know about anything recently q jesse jackson who of course is not the president s best friend has however been told that there is to be some kind of town meeting or some kind of involvement by the president pre empted the ball game los angeles will he consider something like that or any other kind of intervention there mr stephanopoulos well as you know the president appointed commerce secretary ron brown about days ago to be a special envoy to california and coordiante cabinet activities around the california economic situation including the situation in los angeles i believe there will also be visits out to los angeles by the education or have been visits by the education secretary mr riley i believe that transportation secretary pena and hud secretary cisneros are also going out and there may be other visits by cabinet officials over the next several days and weeks i wouldn t rule out the possibility of a visit by president clinton to california obviously he is following the situation closely and is concerned about making sure that we make the right long term policy decisions that will help create the kind of economic opportunities which help prevent disturbances but we re going to continue to watch it q george as a follow up reverend jackson is also supposed to be outside the ball park today in baltimore with a group of supporters protesting the lack of minorities in baseball management does the president have a position on that mr stephanopoulos the president has received correspondence from reverend jackson i know that reverend jackson has also spoken with the white house chief of staff mack mclarty he clearly raises serious questions there has been some progress in baseball over the last several years but still not enough but the president intends to continue to go to the ball game q is he going to say anything about it today or see reverend jackson while he s out there mr stephanopoulos i don t know if he is going to see them but as i said the president believes that reverend jackson has raised some serious questions and it s something that as i said even though there has been progress it s clearly not enough q did reverend jackson ask him not to go to the ball game mr stephanopoulos i m not sure about that i believe the characterization the reverend jackson is talking about is an informational pickett i don t know that he asked him not to go to the ball game but he sent a long detailed formal letter outlining his concerns with the situation in major league baseball and the president read it q george the orioles are playing the rangers the managing partner of the rangers is george w bush is he going to be there and is he going to meet with the president mr stephanopoulos i don t know q what is the mubarak schedule mr stephanopoulos i know that president mubarak is coming tomorrow morning for a working meeting they will have a lunch and i believe that he is having dinner tonight with vice president gore q and joint statements tomorrow mr stephanopoulos i believe so yes at the end yes q is there evidence george that the egyptians did warn the u s about a potential terrorist bombing terrorist activities mr stephanopoulos as reported in the new york times i mean i think that president mubarak did say that there has been general conversations with the egyptians as there have been for a long period of time we do have general intelligence sharing i mean but president mubarak was very careful to point out that there was no specific information on this visit that was passed forward the president will continue to investigate the situation but he also reiterates his belief that we cannot tolerate terrorism of any kind q george he did make specific or the egyptians apparently did issue specific warnings about this individual who forgive me this individual who forgive me the name escapes me at the moment and said the egyptians were more or less rebuffed in their attempts to get some kind of action mr stephanopoulos again i don t know if i would agree with your characterization of the mubarak interview he did say that they gave general warnings about the possibility of a network in the united states and upon which we took appropriate action but there was no specific information on this specific operation at all q so the white house doesn t feel that any of the law enforcement agencies whether it be the cia or fbi who would have received this kind of information was lax or derelict in its duty in not pursuing some kind of mr stephanopoulos no not at all q what s next with serbia it got only a passing mention in the news conference yesterday mr stephanopoulos you didn t get to ask your question q yes exactly was there any agreement on concerted action between the two countries and even if there wasn t what does the u s do next mr stephanopoulos i think the u s is clearly going to move forward in the u n today continuing discussions with our allies on a sanctions resolution and we ll continue to look for ways to press the serbians to come to the negotiating table and sign an agreement q george why do you think sanctions is still an option i mean the serbians make it clear that at least the leadership is surviving just fine and they feel like they can wait you out and even the administration officials we had in the other day said there s no evidence that they re going to have an effect any time soon the bosnian serbs have said no to the peace plan when does no mean no and you have to do something different mr stephanopoulos well i mean we are doing something different we re moving forward on further sanctions through the u n and those discussions will continue we re going to continue to try and tighten the noose on serbia and i think that every opportunity we have to do that will have an effect over time q are we looking again at lifting the arms embargo mr stephanopoulos the president has said that this is something that is under consideration q george do you have any more on hugh rodham s condition how he s doing mr stephanopoulos as far as i know nothing s changed q george week after mr mubarak mr stephanopoulos it s a little unclear i think we ll be able to get you more either tonight or tomorrow morning after the mubarak visit q is he going somewhere for easter mr stephanopoulos not that i know of q what more can you tell us about the additional aid to russia that the president plans to ask congress about mr stephanopoulos he s going to be consulting with the congress and with our g partners over the next couple of weeks i know that he spoke last evening with congressman gephardt and their delegation before the the congressional delegation meets with the russians this week and those consultations will continue over the next several weeks q do you expect that package to be of the magnitude of the one announced sunday mr stephanopoulos i m not going to discuss the magnitude q how about the list of cold war restrictions where do you stand on that mr stephanopoulos as the president said yesterday he s going to be looking for that list from the congress this week and reviewing it he believes he s going to try and get it this week and he s going to review the list and we re going to take a hard look at it q but they re making it up i mean it s no white house involvement congress is compiling this list mr stephanopoulos i think he s going to talk to the congressional leaders about compiling the list but i m certain we ll be able to get our own researchers working as well q george isn t lifting the arms embargo more of a probability than a possibility mr stephanopoulos it s something that s under discussion q secretary christopher has said that it s a matter of time and for months before that happens mr stephanopoulos again all i can say is that it s something that the president is reviewing right now we re working with our allies in the u n on a sanctions resolution and we ll continue to review other matters q george can you tell us anything about the schedule this week any travel mr stephanopoulos they just asked about that i don t have anything more beyond tomorrow s visit with mubarak right now q are there consultations george with any jewish american organizations concerning jackson vanick mr stephanopoulos as you know the national conference of soviet jewry has a list of i believe mr stephanopoulos as you know the national conference of soviet jewry has a list of i believe refuseniks we ll certainly take a look at that and continue appropriate discussions thanks
talk.politics.misc	clinton president s remarks on trip to baltimore the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april remarks by the president en route to camden yards for orioles opening day game marc train en route to camden yards a m edt q mr president what do you think of jesse jackson s protest today the president i think it s an informational protest i think it s fine the owners put out a statement few days ago which they say was the first step in you know efforts to increase minority ownership and minority increases in management i think we should i m encouraged by don baylor s appointment out in colorado and i think it s time to make a move on that front so i think it s a legitimate issue and i think it s like i said it s an informational picket and not an attempt to get people not to go to the game so i think it s good q do you think they re moving fast enough the president well i think that it was a good first step and i think you ll see some movement now and i think it s an issue that deserves some attention and they re obviously going to give it some and i think that reverend jackson being out there will highlight the issue so i think it s fine q mr president how about the logjam in the senate on the economic stimulus plan do you think they ll be able to break that and get cloture the president i don t know we re working at it i mean it s a classic there was an article in the paper today one of the papers i saw which pretty well summed it up they said you know this is a it s just a political power play in the senate the majority does not rule it s not like the country it s not like the it s not like the house if the minority chooses they can stop majority rule and that s what they re doing there are a lot of republican senators who have told people that they might vote for the stimulus program but there s enormous partisan political pressure not to do it and of course what it means is that in this time when no new jobs are being created even though there seems to be an economic recovery it means that for political purposes they re willing to deny jobs to places like baltimore and dallas and houston and pittsburgh and philadelphia and portland and seattle it s very sad i mean the block grant program was designed to create jobs in a hurry based on local priorities and it s one that the republicans had always championed just about the only democrat champions of the program were people like me who were out there at the grassroots level governors and senators i just think it s real sad that they have chosen to exert the minority muscle in a way that will keep americans out of work i think it s a mistake the press thank you end a m edt
talk.politics.misc	re still waiting for evidence mr cramer in article mortalc wxln s netcom com mortal netcom com sam lowry writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes in article mar rational com kima excalibur rational com kim althoff writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes gay men constitute at least of all child molestations whether this is because gay molesters are unusually common or have unusually high numbers of victims sort of misses the point doesn t it it means that whichever is the case homosexual men are remarkably hazardous to children clayton says you are incorrect the most recent survey data i can find shows that of molestation is exclusively homosexuals is bisexual victims are both male and female and the remainder is exclusively heterosexual so what you are saying is that of the child molestations are committed by heterosexuals i cannot see the correlation you cite bisexuals are heterosexuals since when which concludes that by being homosexual you will molest children or that by being homosexual you will have the propensity for molesting children i haven t said that homosexual child molester simply that is more likely if of the molestations are by homosexuals why are you so concerned about creating a relation between the two if you had evidence that of the molestations are committed by homosexuals you might find a relationship ok where is the realtionship you make the one that is shown when nambla marches in gay parades also what is the reason people molest from human sexuality and a psych class or too i have taken the overwhelming voice says that people commit these acts as power trips and to feel in control this has nothing to do with sexual orientation you mean that s m because it s a power trip has nothing to do with sexual orientation mortal netcom com clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re a loathesome subject in article c y dd l n panix com roy panix com roy radow writes anyone with any degree of sensitivity or awareness has to be concerned about the horrendous amount of child abuse that exists in this country the critical factor here is whether the sexual activity is forced when a child is forced there is often damage on the other hand consensual relationships are often found to be positive experiences for all concerned roy radow roy panix com rutgers cmcl panix roy north american man boy love association for a packet containing a sample why all the quote marks roy i can see that they might be appropriate where there is a legitimate concern that the words are being distorted by context or that they have been appropriated newspeak style but reading your comments above one might be excused if they assumed that you were claiming that child abuse forced sexual activity and damage caused by this is non existant or greatly overblown positive experiences indeed paul elliott member in good standing of the optilink mafia paul elliott dsc optilink petaluma ca usa uunet pyramid tekbspa optilink elliott or elliott optilink com i used to think i was indecisive but now i m not so sure
talk.politics.misc	re roe v wade in article c xawp tak watson ibm com margoli watson ibm com larry margolis writes in apr ncsu edu dsh eceyv ncsu edu doug holtsinger writes abortions destructive of the fetus must be permitted even just before birth if they promote what the supreme court calls health yes doug we all know that roe v wade prevents states from prohibiting abortions necessary to preserve the life or health of the woman only very stupid people such as yourself confuse a discussion of mental health related to jane doe who was in a mental institution and attempt to claim that this same argument could be applied to a woman who decided she wanted an abortion because she was having a bad hair day as you well know the facts are that there are about third trimester abortions performed in this country annually and those are only done for serious health reasons larry margolis margoli yktvmv bitnet margoli watson ibm com internet hmmm human gestation period is something like weeks that means third trimester abortions are those done after weeks in consulting a world almanac i see that of abortions in were done at weeks or more that s about abortions in after weeks unless the number of abortions performed has dropped dramatically or a lot of abortions are done between and weeks i think you are wrong by the way roe v wade allowed states to adopt very very broad prohibitions on third trimester abortions but some states such as california declined to do so it was reported that what finally stopped third trimester elective abortions in the bay area wasn t law but that the only hospital doing them ran out of nurses then doctors willing to do them not surprisingly the bay area now chapter was terribly upset about this i remain pro choice but when pro choicers compare abortion in a clinic to a religious ritual in a church you have to start wondering a bit if the pro life criticism of abortion as modern human sacrifice doesn t have a grain of truth to it clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re age of consent child molestation from article c zlj bun queernet org by rogerk queernet org roger b a klorese in article optilink com walsh optilink com mark walsh writes nambla s presence in the sf gay pride parade says quite a bit it says that either the parade organizers want to show support for nambla or they themselves have a fundamental misunderstanding of their rights and responsibilities i would really really like to believe the latter but i would need some help to do so there are dozens of examples of the latter nambla is an especially glaring one but hardly the only one perhaps though the exclusion of the gay perotistas in the sf gay pride parade would make me think that they had some clue in this regard dozens of examples i don t know mark walsh walsh optilink uucp uunet optilink walsh amateur radio km xu wx k aol bigcookie aol com uscf l what me worry william m gaines i m gonna crush you andre the giant
talk.politics.misc	re age of consent child molestation in article c tz cpp panix com roy panix com roy radow writes in optilink com walsh optilink com mark walsh writes it should be noted that nambla has not been present in the other or so gay parades in the nation while i view this as an isolated event i am very troubled by its reccurence i hope i m not going to hate myself for getting involved in this discussion but i felt obliged to keep things factually accurate last year nambla marched in the pride parades in boston new york and san francisco it was not the first time we participated in these parades and it will not be the last i have marched with the nambla contingent in new york every year for more than a decade thank you for correcting the error in my post to the net this information came from a newspaper article that was fuzzy in my mind i can only wonder if there have been similar outcries about nambla s presence in the parades of new york and boston yours in liberation from molestation mark north american micro biological laboratories association for a packet containing a sample bulletin publications list and membership information send postage to note sometimes i do the darndest things while trying to squelch my desire to flame the living daylights out of somebody for their beliefs and or associations especially if they are so genial phil take it away mark walsh walsh optilink uucp uunet optilink walsh amateur radio km xu wx k aol bigcookie aol com uscf l what me worry william m gaines i m gonna crush you andre the giant
talk.politics.misc	re i thought commercial advertising was not allowed in c sma gk voder nsc com matt galaxy nsc com matt freivald x writes in article in talk politics misc margoli watson ibm com larry margolis writes i would suggest that legal precedent defines a human being i e a person whose rights are protected by the constitution and the law as someone with a functioning brain no if you want to use legal precedent you should take a look at the model penal code on which many states base their criminal code my apologies if i was unclear i was not trying to start a statutory debate since there are many in some cases conflicting statutes on the books i was merely suggesting a paradigm that might make sense for a pro choicer imho and i was pointing out that legal precedent defines a human being as referring only to the born so your suggestion was incorrect if at some point an unborn child is a human being the parents clearly have the same responsibilities toward her as any other parents have toward their children and no parent can be forced to supply bodily resources toward their children even if necessary to save the child s life there is a confusion here between action and inaction a parent does not have to run out in front of a bus to save their child s life either but a parent is required to feed his children there is a confusion here about what bodily resources constitutes blood transfusions and organ donations involve bodily resources your examples do not larry margolis margoli yktvmv bitnet margoli watson ibm com internet
talk.politics.misc	re how many heterosexuals are there kaldis romulus rutgers edu theodore a kaldis writes too many agreed we need more folks to admit they re bi michael d adams starowl a i rahul net champaign il southeast al thrush believes in the two party system the masters and the slaves napoleon solo from the man from u n c l e
talk.politics.misc	re top ten reasons not to aid russians julie eddie jpl nasa gov julie kangas writes in article c wj y encore com rcollins ns encore com roger collins writes julie eddie jpl nasa gov julie kangas writes don t look at me i want to send aid to russia many other conservatives do as well yes it was nixon who was most vocal about giving money to russia it makes me proud to be a libertarian it appears both conservatives and liberals prefer to cold war until you win then nurse the enemy back to health for another go around enemy sounds like that s the viewpoint of the stereotypical rednecked conservative always been commies always will be ok i should have said former enemy i was being sarcastic about what interventionists want to do i suggest you listen very carefully to the stuff yeltsin and his people are saying and compare that with the very anti west slogans coming from his opponents in the russian congress i sure know who i want to back could we back him without forcing others to back him at the point of a gun have you considered a non interventionist policy if market reform does happen russia will certainly get private capital at private risk to help their economy they will even have incentive to do so for the same reason if they don t reform then our government will probably consider them enemies anyway and rather spend money to hurt rather than help them then their s the ideological point we want to win russia over to our type of government a type where the rulers can rule without limit over everyone s finances it s like subsidizing the wealthy countries japan germany etc with free defense and then trade warring with them because of the economic competition it s like subsidizing tobacco farmers while paying bureaucrats to pursuade people not to smoke better to let them degenerate into civil war remember all those nuclear weapons in russia i cannot imagine that they would not be used in a civil war if nationialists take over and even if they prevent a civil war most feel they must take back large parts of land that are in other countries like ukraine i also cannot imagine ukraine giving up land without a fight possibly nuclear how does this affect us well we are on the same planet and if vast tracks of europe are blown away i think we d feel something a massive breakup of a country that spans th the planet is bound to have affects here of course there is also the humanitarian argument that democracies should help other democracies or struggling democracies if a billion gift was that important to our well being couldn t it be raised voluntarilly people already give over billion a year to charity i ask myself what law could we pass to prevent government from doing stupid frivilous things with our money then i think the constitution was supposed to do that could someone please tell me what legitimate constitutional power the federal government is using when it takes money from my paycheck and gives it to needy countries seriously seriously everyone has different opinions on what is stupid my two causes are aid to russia and a strong space program someone else will champion welfare or education or doing studies of drunken goldfish that is why we have a republic and not a true democracy instead of gridlock on a massive scale we only have gridlock on a congressional scale it seems instead of gridlock on any scale we have aid to russia expensive space programs national charity that doesn t help the poor and probably studies of drunken goldfish i think limited government is more key than how democratic it is btw who is to decide stupid this is just like those who want to impose their morals on others just the sort of thing i thought libertarians were against that was an opinion and libertarians are very big on free speech actually my politics are pretty libertarian except on this one issue and this is why it is impossible for me to join the party it seems that libertarians want to withdraw from the rest of the world and let it sink or swim if you are pretty libertarian except on this one issue then you should be very libertarian consider it a compromise how much money would your fellow russia aiders have to give to russia if those you oppose weren t using the same government machine to steal money from you and your group for causes you don t support we could do that years ago but not now people have been saying that for hundreds of years like it or not we are in the beginnings of a global economy and global decision making all the more reason to depend on the free market which can more efficiently process information than to depend on rulers for decisions on complex issues julie disclaimer all opinions here belong to my cat and no one else roger collins sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself can he then be trusted with the government of others or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him let history answer this question thomas jefferson first inaugural address
talk.politics.misc	re why not concentrate on child molesters cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes you mean if a large part of the population supports discrimination against homosexuals they will be injured but if a large part of the population supports such discrimination how did that law get passed an addition to anti discrimination laws which includes homo and bisexuality one would assume it would be because politicians were listening to the people coming up with rational arguments rather than variations on bigotry logic sometimes prevails btw glad to see that you ve admitted sexual attraction to children is a seperate sexual orientation didn t think you had that much honesty tony quirke wellington new zealand quirke a kosmos wcc govt nz usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult to redirect awe inspiring entertaining and a source of mind boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it gene spafford
talk.politics.misc	re top ten comments overheard in the secret service lounge croaker highlite uucp francis a ney writes besides which we don t want clinton assasinated because that would make h a martyr a la jfk it s a much better deal to have him end his term of office in disgrace after watching all his liberal democrat friends on his staff run this nation down t toilet assuming of course that the riots a fortnight from now don t do it for him he d have to go a far ways to run things down as bad as reagan and bush did we didn t have riots but bush got dumped out on his spotty behind we ll see in years pope charles slack in our time s popec unkaphaed jpunix com william c barwell unka phaed s uucp thingy houston tx v bis v bis
talk.politics.misc	re why not concentrate on child molesters cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes the liberal gov wilder vetoed it which shows that liberals don t give a damn about best person for the job it s just a power play women are only interested in clothes and shopping whites are imperialist colonial fascists blacks are lazy uneducated scum men are rapists homosexuals support child molesting slogans my dear cramer are not an adequate substitute for thought tony quirke wellington new zealand quirke a kosmos wcc govt nz usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult to redirect awe inspiring entertaining and a source of mind boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it gene spafford
talk.politics.misc	re hate crimes laws thf kimbark uchicago edu ted frank writes in article apr news acns nwu edu dmeier casbah acns nwu edu douglas meier writes in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes in article apr news acns nwu edu dmeier casbah acns nwu edu douglas meier writes if someone beats up a homosexual he should get charged for assault and battery why must we add gay bashing to the list isn t this a sort of double jeopardy or am i just being a fascist again to deter an epidemic of gay bashing that has not been deterred by assault laws so we ought to make beating up a homosexual more illegal than beating up a straight and who s advocating that hate crimes laws are aimed at the motivations of the acts just like premeditated homicide is treated stricter than heat of passion homicide but you still get into trouble for example how often are crimes of violence not hate crimes the question is then who are you hating if its another gang member then its better than if the person you hate is of a differnt color also is it realistic to declare that crimes of hate are worse than crimes of gross negligence like random drive by shootings where they can t be hate crimes because the shooter doesn t know who he is going to hit he just shoots into the crowd no it is not double jeopardy a single act may lead to multiple charges and multiple crimes i think what you meant to say here was with the current mutation of the us constitution under the current police state someone may be charged multiple times for one act if the victim in question is of the right shade a single act should never merit more than on charge so if i set off a bomb in the world trade center i can only be charged with more than one murder and not the other five deaths and extensive property damage after all the bomb was a single act first i heard today that there is a good chance that the u s instead of new york is going after the bombers this means no capital punishment secondly double jepardy does help keep the government from going after you for first one murder then the next etc a sovereign has essentially one chance with a single fact pattern such as the world trade center bombing that is why the bombers will in all probability be tried for all the deaths as well as the property damages as well as conspiracy at once of course as we discovered in the rodney king case there are two sovereigns neither of which can try you twice for the same crime bruce e hayden bhayden csn org
talk.politics.misc	re tieing abortion to health reform is clinton nuts in article h lnrb zola esd sgi com cj sgi com writes vengeance that s all it s no deterrent it serves no it seems to deter those who are executed from future criminal activity yeah yeah yeah and sure would be nice if we didn t apply the death penalty disproportionately to minorities i ll revisit my opinion on the death penalty when there are more whites up for it than blacks i e when hell freezes over why don t you compare the rates at which blacks and whites commit crimes blacks commit crimes disproportionately so in a perfectly fair penal system blacks would be disproportionately represented note black vs white crime rates is not a racial thing it s probably an economic thing poor people are more likely to commit crimes and blacks are more likely to be poor the way to reduce the proportion of minorities in prison is to increase the wealth of minorities tim smith
talk.politics.misc	re us government sanctions sacrilege william december starr writes in a typical lawyer baiting fashion as usual all the while ignoring every principle of the aclu good to see your still out there wds surely we ve been around the ring enough by now that you know you can t spin me up with expletives let s see if there s anything left worth responding to cyrus achy breaky heart ad infinitum until either koresh surrenders or the rest of the state of texas is totally depopulated e for effort heard about the folks who live around foghorns and airports erect an inverted cross or a star of david broken asunder out in front of the davidians to provoke them or boom out islamic prayers or worse what temple would you destroy what books would you burn will you kill clergy will you mock the spirit of god before the innocent sure i would why not seems right in character to me creature of the state btw are you still happy with your presidents if you in government have no respect for other s faith and no respect for the lives and well being of those innocent children caught in this hell you ve created why should anyone respect your lipservice of rule of law what does rule of law have to do with respect for anyone s religious faith see the part about the children following the and in the first line above as to a connection your cult is faith in rules no matter who the criminals are or what they ve done and it looks like there are criminals on both sides of the matter their conviction is not worth the abuse you re causing what abuse please be specific sure my concern is the well being of the children if you are willing to ignore the children or heap abuse insult and sacrilege on the children inside the davidian house then god rebuke you best you learn directly from the lord the corruption you re committing in god s good time and way the lord judge you i can not for truth be told i would send you all straight to hell and god would be right in sending me right along with you oh fuck you and the god you rode in on stephen if you can show the legitimacy of god s claim of sovereignty over man please do so otherwise stop ranting and raving about him already william december starr wdstarr athena mit edu interesting that you would respond emotionally in defense of the government maybe there is a beating heart there for the record though the biggest baddest goverment on earth claims the most sovereignty over man best i can tell god allows anyone to go to hell who wants to omnipotency logically determines that allowing and sending mean the same thing mere human concepts of course so come on wds why bother to try some flimsy facade of logic waco proves it s not needed the demonstration that government can walk over it s own rules in the name of justice has been made no problem by me noted and announced for the record just giving the govern ment it s due and getting back to more worthwhile non government concerns j stephen
talk.politics.misc	clinton background briefing in vancouver the white house office of the press secretary vancouver british columbia background briefing by senior administration officials april canada place vancouver british columbia a m pst folks we re about to start the background briefing on the aid package senior administration official good morning the president president clinton and president yeltsin agreed yesterday on a series of american initiatives to support economic and political reform in russia and it s valued at billion before taking your questions and running through the basic outlines of this package i want to make a few points first this is the maximum that the clinton administration can do with available funds to support russian reform all of the funds have been allocated and appropriated by the congress there is no need for the administration to go back to the congress to fund any of these programs all our fiscal year funds currently are available so in effect all of these programs can begin tomorrow the second point is that this package is designed to support russian reformers all of the initiatives in the package are directed at reformers and for their benefit and all have been worked out with prior consultation with the russian government third the president is determined that we will deliver on these commitments this year the package is designed to maximize our ability to support reform in designing it we wanted to avoid making commitments that we could not meet and we feel very confident that we can meet all of these commitments in front of you fourth i d like to note the special importance of trade and investment i think it s fair to say that russia s capital and technology needs throughout the next decade extend well into the hundreds of billions of dollars no collection of governments can meet those needs only the private sector can do so and so the president and president yeltsin agreed to make trade and investment a major priority in the relationship they also agreed that there would be a new joint commission on energy and space formed headed on the u s side by vice president gore on the russian side by prime minister chernomyrdin and the goal of this effort is to break through the barriers to trade and investment on both sides and to promote a vastly expanded relationship if it would be helpful i d be prepared to run down the first page which is a summary of u s assistance and just give you some general background on what these programs are i ll do it quickly and then i ll be glad to take questions the first group of initiatives are humanitarian food and medical assistance this is part of our effort which has been underway for several years to provide basic humanitarian grant food assistance so that the russian government can assure there s at least a minimal amount of bread on the shelves in the major cities that s million in grant that is from food for progress the grant portion of food for progress we ll also be continuing our grant assistance in medicines and pharmaceutical supplies and that s million the second item is concessional food sales as you know the united states has had a long term grain relationship with russia it s important to us and it s important to russia that we continue that relationship the president has chosen the food for progress program which is a concessional loan program the value over the next seven months is million these are concessional terms the exact terms have not been worked out but i think it s fair to say there will be a grace period on principal of six or seven years and concessional rates thereafter for the life of the deal the third program is a collection of private sector support we think this is one of the most important things we re going to do privatization and the creation of small businesses is the number one priority of the reform government in moscow and so the president has decided to create a russian american enterprise fund capitalized this year at million and the goal of this fund is to make direct loans to small businesses in russia to take equity positions in those businesses the president has also decided to create a privatization fund which would work directly with the russian government in its priority objective of trying to convert state enterprises from a state owned basis to a private basis he has also agreed the president has also agreed to establish a eurasia foundation this would be a private foundation led by prominent americans to fund democratization projects in russia the fourth grouping you see there in the summary page is democratization itself i think it s fair to say that this administration has given a new impetus to the goal of pursuing democratization in russia you see that we have a total of million in programs various programs the detailed tables give an indication of some of the programs that we re launching the president is also calling for the development of a democracy corps which will be an overarching umbrella group to try to incorporate all of the disparate private and public efforts now underway from the united states to support reform in russia the fifth program you see is russian office of resettlement this is a new initiative created and conceptualized by this administration this is a demonstration project what we d like to do is work with the russian military to help resettle russian officers returning from the baltic states and other parts of the former soviet union we want to make sure that we work out the best way to do that whether it s with russian labor and russian materials or using prefab american construction and so we ve decided to fund on a demonstration basis the construction of housing units we ll be working very closely with the russian military on this and i would say that we have a long term commitment to this project the sixth area is energy in the environment they are two issues that the president feels strongly about our initial efforts will be feasibility studies to look into the possibility of enhancing their energy production both oil and gas and equally important trying to cut down on the leakages in the oil and gas pipeline systems which cause so much environmental damage i ve talked a little bit about trade and investment about the new group being created that the vice president will chair on our side secretary ron brown will also be cochairing with deputy prime minister shohkin a business development committee which will work in all other sectors of the economy to break down the many barriers that currently exist and impede trade and investment we are also going to appoint a full time investment ombudsman in the american government to work on this problem full time and the point i d like to make here is trade and investment in the s is every bit as important to draw an analogy as arms reductions was in the s and s and we just thought that in looking at this we needed to make a commitment within our own government to have people work on it senior people on a full time basis because it is terribly important you ll notice that the united states is going to support russia s membership in the gatt russia has had observer status russia has requested our support and in fact requested our advice in becoming a member of the gatt we think that the long term goal of drawing russia into the global economy is paramount a very important goal and that is why we are supporting the membership in the gatt we are also supporting their access to gsp the generalized system of preferences you ll note that ex im has extended million in credit for a caterpillar deal in siberia that opic has extended million in credits and loan guarantees for a conoco oil project i d like to emphasize that we are very close to an agreement between russia and the united states for a billion framework facility through the ex im bank that would finance russian purchases of american oil and gas equipment and services we think this is a very important development we think we ll get there by april th which is the opening day of the tokyo conference the g conference before i take any further questions i d like to defer to my colleague who will review the security assistance objectives with you senior administration official our major unfinished agenda with the russians and with their counterparts in ukraine kazakhstan and belarus is in the area of the safe and secure dismantlement of the nuclear arsenals on their territory under the terms of the start i and start ii agreements recently we completed in moscow three i think very important agreements that devote a significant chunk of nunn lugar funding to three important programs the first is the program of million for the strategic nuclear delivery vehicle dismantlement program that is for submarines for icbm dismantlement and for bomber dismantlement million the second is a million tranche of funding for the construction of a facility to store nuclear materials removed from the warheads as they are dismantled this will essentially contribute to the overall design and the early phases of the construction of that storage facility and finally a million tranche of money to help in the establishment of a monitoring system for the nuclear materials as they are withdrawn from the weapons system so we add that million total to the extant nunn lugar assistance which has been flowing about million for some overall safety improvements for various kinds of equipment and safety measures that we have been working out with the russians over the last couple of years so this is an area where we will be going a lot more work with not only the russians but with the ukrainians kazhaks and belarussians belarus for example has just in the last couple of weeks received up to million in fy funds for safety security and dismantlement programs on belarussian territory and this was in the wake of their ratification of start i an agreement to accede to npt so we are working very hard with all the parties to the lisbon protocols and will continue to work very hard with them and i look upon these three recent agreements with russia as a very important step in that process q the opic funds to is that for the field in kazhakstan and conoco already signed this deal with kazhakstan why do you feel now it is necessary if it s the same one why do you feel it s necessary senior administration official it s not the same deal chevron signed a deal with kazhakstan the tenges oil field this is a new investment project it s a polar lights oil development and renovation project and it s being announced today so it s completely new q can you tell us more about what s involved senior administration official yes conoco like other american oil companies has been searching for ways to do two things one to prospect for new oil in siberia west siberia and two to try to get into the business of renovating oil wells and renovating pipelines both oil and gas in russia the objective here obviously is to take advantage of the natural resources in russia increase energy production which will in turn increase hard currency revenues which is what russia needs so we think this deal is very very good development for russia the russians do as well and it s good for an american company and the american government has played a leading role in pulling this together through the credit facility in opic and through the loan guarantee q so it s to search and also to renovate fields that are already there senior administration official that s right q on that point should other american companies expect to get administration support for such deals or should they now go to the ex im and try to get the money out of the billion senior administration official well as you know ex im is part of the u s government and various parts of the u s government have been pushing including the state department and the white house for this deal to be consummated and we think it will and if we arrive at this agreement by april th there will be billion in financing available for american companies to sell their equipment and sell their services q that should take up all of the rest of the deals and their won t be and their will or there won t be support for opic sort of deals such as this conoco senior administration official there s a tremendous amount of interest on the part of american oil and gas companies to invest in russia we think that the ex im oil and gas facility the billion facility once it is concluded will soak up a lot of that interest but i think the interest may even extend beyond that and if so the government will respond q what s the current year budget costs of that billion agreement should it go forward and is there any current year budget costs senior administration official i ll have to refer you to ex im for that i don t know the details of that q the concessional food sales is there any current year costs to that or is it delayed until the years in which the payments are due senior administration official the concessional food sales are from food for progress which is a usda program usda has the funds we don t need to go back to the congress to expend those funds there will be a hit in the budget i d refer you to usda and omb for the details on that q can you talk about the democracy corps q and the private sector how many folks are going to be involved in that senior administration official why don t i start with the democracy corps first i think the administration felt coming into office that there were literally thousands of organization private organizations in the united states that in one way or another were working at the goal of trying to achieve democratization in russia helping on a farmer to farmer basis and there were literally or u s government agencies that had a variety of programs in this area and so the administration felt the president felt it was important to try to draw all of these initiatives together under one group to give some coherence to the efforts and to give some impetus to the efforts and so this is a presidential initiative it will be headed by ambassador tom simons who will soon take up his duties as the coordinator for u s assistance in the former soviet union and we re very hopeful that we might use this democracy corps not only to draw upon the resources of our own government but the resources of the american private sector and schools and communities across the nation q any kind of commitment yet any kind of word yet on fy and any new money that needs to be appropriated besides the million the president talked about senior administration official the administration is requesting additional funds in fy of million what the president has done this weekend is to consult really intensively yesterday with president yeltsin about additional measures the united states could take in some of these areas to support reform he ll be consulting with the congress when he returns to washington he ll be consulting also with the other ally governments and we ll make a decision at that time q two questions about the billion agricultural money first of all i thought it was the sort of consensus that what russia did not need was more loans for food so why did you decide to do it that way secondly could you explain agriculture has been stopped from making further loans for food because of russia s inability to pay how does this fit into that situation senior administration official as you know the united states for a long time has been a major supplier of grains and food commodities agricultural products to russia i think between and we had extended a little bit of history here about billion in credits credit guarantees through the commodity credit corporation that was the principal vehicle to ensure the sale of american grain products on december of last year the russian government stopped its payments on that program they are now in arrears to us on that program and therefore by law the united states cannot continue that program and so the president working with secretary espy and other officials in the cabinet looked for other ways that we could promote american grain sales and i think we have two ways to do that we ve announced today million in grant food assistance through the food for progress program but we do not have sufficient authority to spend million in grant food and so we looked for a concessional loan program i think everybody agrees that russia that a short term loan program for russia would not make sense now but a long term concessional loan program would and that is what this program is it will provide once the final details are worked out for a six to seven year grace period on payments of principal and then from years seven through which is the life of the deal it will provide for concessional rates of interest generally around three to four percent and so we believe and the russian government believes this is a good deal for them because it will avoid the imperative of early payments and put them into the out years but it will also continue this very important grain relationship which is important for them and it s important for the american farm community q i gather from what you say that this could make it explicit the russians failure to pay the interest on ecc loan does not in any way affect this kind of loan going through is that right senior administration official let me be explicit about that we are prevented under the law to from continuing the commodity credit corporation short term credit program because of russia s arrearages to the united states all of you know about those arrearages they total about i think around million usda can give you an exact figure so having taken that into consideration and wanting to preserve american market share and a long term grain relationship wanting to respond to a specific request from the russian government for major food assistance knowing that we couldn t take it from the grant programs because we don t have sufficient authority there we looked at food for progress which is a program we ve used to great effect in other parts of the world and we consulted with the russian government and arrived at this solution i think the russians are pleased because it provides them with the food but also gives them a little bit of relief on the short term payments q where do those funds actually come from senior administration official they come from the food for progress program which is a program under usda s authority usda has the authority to spend these funds we do not need to go back to the congress for these funds and i want to make that general point again everything in this package the billion package comprises funds that have already been allocated and appropriated by the congress the administration can begin to spend these monies tomorrow and it s very important in our eyes that we expend all the funds this year that we meet these commitments and we are confident we ll be able to do so q how did you arrive at the figure of million does that max out that program or did you actually have a range from to senior administration official there s a reason for it the reason was that the russian government told us that s about the amount of grain that they needed between now and harvest time and so the idea is that we would begin the shipments probably million per month from now until the harvest in the autumn at which time russia won t require the same level of food imports from the west q i would imagine there s going to be some considerable envy and jealousy on the part of some of the other republics because of the size and the scope of this with russia have you given any consideration to advancing negotiations for the same kinds of projects with the ukraine with georgia with some of the other republics senior administration official yes we re very conscience of the fact that we also have an interest in extending american support to the other countries of the former soviet union we have told ourselves and we have planned that in the area of technical assistance the grant technical assistance that you see roughly percent of the funding will go to russia and roughly percent to the other countries in the area of food sales we have been active with ukraine in grant food assistance with georgia and armenia we will continue that and i think it s fair to say that after this summit we will go back and look at all of our programs with the other countries to ensure that they are adequate and they are productive and they re hard hitting q has anything happened at the summit to lead american energy companies and other companies to believe that russia is going to be more user friendly toward them in terms of taxing legalities bureaucracy senior administration official well one of our primary objectives coming into this summit was to highlight not only the economic agenda but also trade and investment and i d like to refer to the point i made at the beginning we re convinced in talking about this problem the problem of how to support russia long term we re convinced that no collection of western governments have the financial resources over the next decade to fuel the continuation of reform that only the private sector can do that we look at our own society and we see tremendous capability in resources in the oil and gas sector it is a very good match with what the russians need now which is financial investment in the existing oil and gas wells and pipeline and new technology and new capital to finance new production that s what the russian government has told us it wants to do and so that s why we have made such a major emphasis on it that s why trade and investment was a prominent issue on the first day of these talks and in fact figured prominently last night in the meeting between president yeltsin and president clinton and we re hoping that together we might send a strong signal to the american business community that we support their efforts to invest in russia that the united states through ex im and opec and the department of commerce will be there to support them q my question is is yeltsin in any position to deliver on making russia a more senior administration official we think he is i would note that president yeltsin s prime minister mr chernomyrdin worked for years in the russian oil and gas sector he will now chair a high level commission with the vice president vice president gore to try to break through the barriers that currently exist to western investment in the oil and gas sector we believe we have a commitment to make that committee an important committee and we re looking forward to the work q what type of mechanism is already in place to administer the private sector portion of the program and will the u s be directly involved in the tail end of distribution of the actual funds or is the money simply turned over to the russian government for distribution at their will senior administration official are you talking about the variety of programs listed here it depends on the program itself in most cases though we are either working through american pbos or american government agencies to ensure that the money obviously is well spent that the money gets to the intended source that s an obligation we have to the congress to ensure the money is well spent and that we can account for the money we have done that in the last couple of months intensively and we will continue to do it for each of these programs but they are all quite different for instance in the area of grant food and medical assistance for grant food it is carried out through usda and usda accounts for the delivery of the food for grant medical assistance we ve been working through project hope which is a private organization for the housing for instance the resettlement of russian officers we ll be working with a group of american pbos on some of the democratization projects we re working directly with russian private individuals and private foundations we re working with journalists in russia on a media project that you may have noticed so we literally have here to different activities under all these rubrics and they re all going to be carried out in slightly different ways some directly with the russian government some with russian citizens q the jackson vanik restrictions that remain and on the cocom restrictions that remain can you tell us what the president has to do on that senior administration official well as george noted yesterday president yeltsin raised these as irritants in the relationship the president has noted that i think it s fair to say we will go back now in our own government when we return to washington and look at both of these questions and we ll get back to the russian government q you were not prepared for these questions when you got here senior administration official we were prepared for these questions we ve looked at them but we re not prepared to make a quick decision this weekend they require let me just explain particularly on jackson vanik they require consultation with the congress they require consultation with the american jewish community and we re very sensitive to those concerns and so we ll want to go back and talk to them before we take any action q is this package designed so that you will not have to go to congress for anything at this point senior administration official as i said at the beginning the advantage of this particular package is that all the funds have been allocated and appropriated by the congress so the administration will not have to go back to the congress to seek any additional authority to fund any of these efforts in effect they can all begin tomorrow and i know that many of the agencies responsible for these projects will begin tomorrow and that s the advantage of this particular initiative q if this as the president says is a long term long haul thing and members of congress are at this moment heading for moscow why aren t you talking about going to congress and suggesting to the president of russia that you are prepared to go to congress for various things senior administration official i think we ve been clear about that the president is discussing this weekend with president yeltsin some additional ideas that we have for american funding of additional projects and ideas that he has we have a major congressional delegation that left last night headed by representative gephardt and we ll want to consult with that delegation and other members of congress before doing anything and we ll also want to consult with our allies so that s where it stands now q we ve been told repeatedly that a number of these items represent different or new ways of spending the money already appropriated could you just tick off which of these items represents reprogramming or at least spending money in ways that it was not previously set to be senior administration official i think that we ve said that these are all projects that either congress had allocated money for through the freedom support act there were some funds that were left over from fy and this administration took office and had some new ideas about how the funds might be expended we didn t use just the freedom support act funds or the fy funds we went into some of the agency allocations ex im opic and usda and tried to look for creative ways to further our programs and example of that is the food for progress concessional loans we had hit a brick wall with another type of funding through usda we could not go forward legally and so we looked for a more creative way to ensure continued american market share and ensure continued grain sales and we think we found it q where for example are you getting the money for this russian officer resettlement senior administration official that s from the freedom support act funds q in other words all of the money is being directly spent in new ways so to speak senior administration official most of the grant projects that you see if you look at the general chart the second chart it s broken down into grant and credits and if you look under grants the technical cooperation projects that total million that is almost all freedom support act funding a little bit of it is leftover funds from fiscal year the nunn lugar funds of course you know about the legislative history of those funds q cooperation senior administration official from fy i don t have the exact figure it was not a considerable figure q could you tell us please has anything happened here this weekend that will break the log jam between ukraine and russia over start for start i and ii as a result of what s happened here senior administration official both presidents president yeltsin and president clinton will be discussing this issue this morning in fact we haven t yet gotten to security and arms control related issues that will be this morning s session i know that president clinton will be very strongly reinforcing that this is a top priority for us we ve been talking to the russians and the ukrainians over the last couple of weeks about ways that we might help to facilitate the discussions between them up to this point this has been a very important negotiation that s been going on essentially between moscow and kiev and we are at the point now of essentially discussing with them if there are ways that we could contribute to this discussion help to move things forward essentially but in terms of what is coming out of this weekend i don t yet know in a couple hours we ll know q just a follow up on the financing here is any of this robbing peter to pay boris since it s all current year appropriations have you taken it from anyplace that s been earmarked and put it into this fund senior administration official there are smoke and mirrors here and i think it s an important point to note we could have given you a page of assistance numbers that included out year funding we re going to make a long term commitment to many of these projects for instance the enterprise funds the privatization effort the housing effort and we ve already talked to the russians about our long term commitment we could have put in really big numbers and this could have been a bigger package but we wanted to make a point this package is fy it s funds that we have and we re going to do what we say we re going to do and the president feels very strongly about that in the past there is a legacy that the western governments the combination of governments put up large budget figures and for any number of reasons we re not able to meet them we re determined and the president is determined to carry out every single program in this package and we ll do it but we do have a longer term commitment and that s part of the discussions on economics this weekend we re looking for russian ideas on what it is we can do to most effectively support reform and we ve told them that we do have a commitment on some of these programs beyond this fiscal year q taken it way from any senior administration official no we haven t okay the question is have we reprogrammed any of these funds so have we taken it from other countries to pay for programs in russia the answer is no we have not done so q in terms of funding there is no available monies left and you simply find a creative way to find money somewhere else doesn t that in fact support the theory senior administration official not at all i don t think it does that s a particular example and the example is grain sales the commodity credit corporation credit guarantee program was short term loans that russia had to pay back within to months you all know about russia s debt problem and russia was unable to meet those commitments so we looked for a way to do two things to meet russia s requirement for grain they re a net grain importer on a massive scale and also meet our objective of making sure that the american farmers have a chance to sell their products to russia and we simply look for another way to finance that and we have legislative authority to do it this program has been successful in other areas we had not tried it before in the former soviet union but we thought we should now q isn t this really the bush clinton aid package for russia since these funds were really first derived by initiatives put forward by president bush senior administration official no i don t think that s a fair characterization a lot of these funds were appropriated by the u s congress is in this administration took office and inherited some obligations that the bush administration had made but we had a long six to seven week review of this program we decided to meet the commitments that had been made by the previous administration but we have gone well beyond them in funding the enterprise fund which was just an idea but the idea had not been filled out with a program there was no number attached to it in grouping together some projects and trying to make them into a coherent whole in the privatization effort i would say is another clinton initiative further we listened to the russian government and listened to the russian military who told us that the resettlement of their officers was important to them for political and economic and social reasons and president clinton has responded to that and we are making a long term commitment that beyond this demonstration project we re going to figure out a way to do much more in trying to settle those officers i would also say that the president has given impetus to all of us in the agencies to think much more broadly about what it is we can do on democratization because there we have some experience and some comparative advantage that lends itself to the russian experience and in calling for the creation of a democracy corps which is another new initiative we re hopeful that we can take the resources of the private sector as well as the american government to achieve that objective so i would not characterize it that way at all and as most of you know i am a career civil servant i was in the last administration i m very familiar with what the last administration did and i would characterize this as a clinton assistance package for russia q there s been a lot of criticism that aid in the past has not gotten to the people is there anything in this outside of the ombudsman that will guarantee that this money will not just disappear because it s being administered by the russian government senior administration official i think that i know that the president and other senior officials of our government are concerned that american money be spent wisely and that it get to the source that it s intended for which it s intended and so we re going to take great care aid and the state department will take great care in making sure that the funds are expended properly and that they re reaching their source i would not that this package is not simply a package of support solely to the russian government some of these projects especially in democratization and exchanges are going to be worked out directly with russian private individuals with businesses the private enterprise support is another example of that senior administration official if i could just add a word on this point with regard to the ssd related programs one area that we ve been looking at very very closely is consideration of actually using russian firms in subcontracting for these kinds of programs they would be working very closely of course with the american firms who would be the prime contractors but this is a fine example i think of a more of a imaginative and flexible approach toward getting some of that funding down to the grassroots level down to the ground in russia but at the same time ensuring that it is spent efficiently and for the purposes for which it was intended q when would the democracy corps start exactly when do you see this happening how would get it off the ground senior administration official well the president is today calling for the creation of a democracy corps i think it s fair to say that we re going to work out its framework over the next couple of weeks ambassador simons takes up his duties on may st but in effect we ve already started because over the last couple of weeks the administration has begun to reach out to people in the private sector who have come to us asking us to help facilitate their activities in russia and we ve said that we will be helpful we ve also tried to kind of coordinate in a much more effective way the activities of our own government we do have or agencies that are active in russia in one way or another we think it makes sense to draw them together and to focus their efforts q excuse me how much of this billion will actually be spent in the united states by american made goods senior administration official i don t have any figures for you now but perhaps we could try to work something up in the next couple of days on that q this figure is larger than the figure that has been in the press did this program grow yesterday as a result of the discussions or have we just been that far off the mark senior administration official no i think unfortunately the press has been a little bit off the mark and i m sorry to say that no this package president clinton put us to work about seven weeks ago on this package and he was briefed intensively on this he contributed a lot of the intellectual leadership in this package he contributed a lot of the ideas in the package and i think it s fair to say that we had this rough package worked out about two weeks ago we have been refining it ever since we spent a couple of days last week going over it with the russian government both the embassy in washington and the government in moscow through our own embassy and so it s been evolving but this particular package has been together for about two weeks q where is yeltsin s input into this then there was so much talk before about the president wanted to get yeltsin s views about specifically what was needed and so forth is that in the out years senior administration official no it s both president yeltsin has on several occasions told us for instance that support for the creation of private businesses is important to him that the resettlement of russian military officers is important and that first and foremost the effort to privatize the state industries is important to them and so what we did was to try to make those the centerpiece of our technical assistance part o the package we listened to him on the privatization effort we have been working with the russian government for months on this trying to work out all the details so the russian government on most of these programs was involved every step of the way but let me get at the other part of your question the president is also using this weekend to talk about a broader set of initiatives that we might undertake and we re looking for his ideas the president has brought his own ideas to the table for instance on energy and the environment and in housing but we re looking for russian ideas not we need to consult with the congress and we need to consult with the other allied governments that are also active q there s essentially nothing that happened in the last day and a half that measurably altered the package that you came in with senior administration official this particular package as i said was worked out and was ready about two weeks ago we have since then consulted with the russian government on the final stages of its development and so this weekend we ve primarily talked about future about what more the united states and other western countries can do to support reform in russia which is our base objective here q i noticed that you that money appropriated to train bankers and businessmen and officers can you tell me what about job training for workers who are displaced by privatization senior administration official you re right we have a program to train russian young russians in banking and financial services in the united states part of the housing initiative it s not just to build housing units it s to retrain russian officers who are retiring into other professions q money for job training for workers whose jobs are disappearing because of privatization senior administration official we have not yet allocated any money for that q why not q of the million is going to build housing units isn t that a lot of money per unit given what the western dollar will buy in the former soviet union senior administration official if you want to do housing the right way it s not just the building the framework of a house you ve got to think about all the utilities you ve got to think about the purchase of land you ve got to think about sewage and gas and electricity and so forth and it s also retraining it s not enough to put retired an officer coming out of riga or tallin or vilnius in a house in western russia we think we have an obligation to try to retrain those officers as well this is responding to a request from the russian government q of the million will go to retrain senior administration official that s right q are you talking about apartment buildings or single senior administration official we re talking about single individual dwellings q you re saying that only families will be served by this senior administration official what i want to i thought i pointed out earlier this is a demonstration project what we didn t want to do given the experience that the germans and the turks and the italians have had in building housing in western russian we did not want to leap into it with a huge amount of money what we want to do is work over the next couple of months and try to figure out with american organizations in the private sector the best way to get this job done i noted that we have a long term commitment to that and so i would expect that we would put a lot more money into this in the future but we want to do it wisely we want to spend the money wisely q what is it about this program that convinces you that it will protect russia s reforms and that russia will be in a position to may back the money they re supposed to pay back especially considering their other debt problem senior administration official well look i think it s important to note that the united states on its own does not have the capability to fuel a continuation of russian reform it s got to be a collective western effort and we re looking to our allies to do more as well but beyond that it s really what the russians do that is going to decide the fate of reform we can simply play a role and we feel we have an obligation to do so which is consistent with our national interests q did the president say that the value of the u s contribution was that it would create security and prosperity for the united states so what is it about this program that does this senior administration official i think you have to go back to the fundamental objective of our policy toward russia and that is we want to do everything we can to support the continuation of reform we are convinced that if reformers stay in power then we ll be able to continue the drawdown of nuclear forces foreign policy cooperation and economic interaction which are the three benefits to the united states from reform in russia so it s not a simple question you can t just say that this program is the answer it s a long term question and we have to make a long term commitment to it q and then on the question of russia s ability to repay what convinces you they ll be able to pay seven to years from now senior administration official well the russian government has made a commitment to repay and what we re hoping is that if reform continues and if they can continue to improve their oil and gas sector and earn additional hard currency revenues that russia will be in a position six or seven years from now to pay back those loans q substantial government to government loan we ve ever gotten into with the russians senior administration official i don t want to answer authoritatively on that i don t go back or years on this but in the last four or five years yes it is because the previous way that we financed grain exports was really to just ensure private bank loans this is a different type of effort q government loans in any other sector that you recall i know it wasn t done in senior administration official i think it s fair to say this is a new and unique effort end a m pdt
talk.politics.misc	re supply side economic policy was re david stockman in article ufk gqu wbke cx v andrew cmu edu ashish arora ashish andrew cmu edu writes excerpts from netnews sci econ apr re supply side economic po by not a boomer desire wrig the deficits declined from reaching a low of of gnp before the tax and spending hike of reversed the trend brett is this true some more details would be appreciated yes sadly this is true the primary reason and the essence of the details that you are seeking is that the grahm rudman budget controls were working in fact they were working so well that unless the feds did something they were going to have to start cutting pork so bush and the democrats got together in a budget summit and replaced grahm rudman with the now historic grand compromise in which bush consented to raise taxes in exchange for certain caps on spending increases as it turned out the taxes killed the reagan expansion and the caps on spending increases were dispelled by clinton in his first act as president so that he could create his own new plan with more tax increases the result is that clinton now hopes to reduce the deficit to a level above where it was when reagan left office chew on that awhile
talk.politics.misc	re damn furriners be taken over in article apr romulus rutgers edu kaldis romulus rutgers edu theodore a kaldis writes in article pa pt r access digex com hess access digex com paul hess writes that drag the us down and cause problems at home and abroad rank balderdash america s reputation abroad has become tarnished because of feckless and pusillanimous cowards who apparently do not have the requisite gonads to stand up for american honor and dignity don t be ridiculous kaldis i suggest you give the ugly american concept which i can easily see you demonstrating a good hard second look the american way is not the only way it s not necessarally the best way and it is incredibly arrogant to even think that the american way may not be the only way and you may not consider it to be necessarily the best way but by god it s our way and we re going to stick with it if you can t go along with the program then perhaps you should consider moving elsewhere dear god didn t this die out in the fifties with mccarthy and the blacklists i ve spent quite a bit of time in different provinces of canada and let me tell you it is very refreshing to spend time with people who are not full of arrogant nationalism and empty patriotism that is exactly the problem with canadians they don t stand for anything with certitude didn t your mother ever teach you not to generalize i am a canadian and i stand up for too many things with too much certitude the canadians i know well enough to say this about seem to have a great deal of pride in their provinces and their country but they aren t blinded by flags and ideals like many americans are could this be because they are bereft of ideals uh huh this must explain the world reknowned record low american crime rate i see now it s all becoming so clear to me well i ve said too much yes you have no he hasn t but i was so angered by your words that i felt i had to say something sorry to intrude you pipsqueak you mouse if you are sorry to intrude then why do it don t you have the courage of your convictions hell do you even have any convictions to start with what kind of example of manly dignity is this sheesh remarkable audacity and misguidance what you take for your own courage sir is nothing more than simple loud mouthedness coupled with unrestrained bragging please allow me to introduce myself sympathy i m a man of wealth and taste for the devil i ve been around for long long years the laibach stolen many a man s soul and faith remixes
talk.politics.misc	re stop putting down white het males from baba tymnet com duane hentrich btw i m a walc white aryan lapsed catholic d baba duane m hentrich baba tymnet com i would like to go on record as objecting to mr hentrich calling himself an aryan the word aryan is of sanskrit origin and occurs first in the hindu scripture the rigveda it seems to have been a tribal term but may have had connotations of good character such connotations are quite explicit in the sayings of the buddha who called his religion the eightfold aryan path the word was borrowed by the german scholar max mueller who used it as a synonym for indo european but then the nazis proceeded to steal it and started pretending that aryan is synonymous with nordic which seems highly unlikely the people who originally called themselves aryas the iranians noprth indians the afghans and possibly the kurds are none of them nordic so the use of the word by westerners though meant with apparent good humor in this case is nontheless inappropriate the only westerners who may have some claim to call themselves aryans by descent are the celts who seem to have wor shipped a god called aryaman who is mentioned in the rigveda if you want to check what i am saying look at mallory s book in search of the indo europeans or just look at the encyclopedia britannica the reason this usage is offensive is that most of ancient indian literature as well as religion is directly or inderectly due to the aryans and for westerners to butt in is really not nice not to mention the horrible things done by germans to jews using a word to which the germans have no clear claim rohit parikh
talk.politics.misc	re celebrate liberty rich thompson posts some blather about the libertarian party august sept everything you always wanted to know about winning elections but didn t know where to ask what pray tell do the libertarians know about winning elections bob robert w mcgwier n hy ccr p ida org center for communications research interests amateur radio astronomy golf princeton n j asst scoutmaster troop hightstown
talk.politics.misc	re celebrate liberty narrative narrative narrative c b
talk.politics.misc	re top ten comments overheard in the secret service lounge in article phgakinn pb apache dtcc edu bob hobbes dtcc edu bob rahe writes in article apr colorado edu ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu a j teel writes ed they are losing their humor please take a break until they get funny again if that is even possible i liked a few of these but that list is not even sarcastic just insulting and definitely not one of your best i look forward to some better lists after a sabatical ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu no they must be working they are getting lots of these complaints that they are not funny keep em coming it they weren t funny or bothering them they d just ignore them if a six year old child does a funny trick and you say well done he will do it again and it may be funny then they may repeat it over and over again bu you still have to pretend its funny even though it isn t any more once they are older than six you expect them to realise that doing the same thing over and over again isn t funny any more basicaly ed fails to be amusing because he is merely crass he does not make jokes that have any political content beyond attempting to ridicule their target calling someone slick willie is not funny even if you put on a red nose while you say it it was a good debating point used on the spur of the moment months ago but now its use merely demonstrates that the user couldn t think of anything original to say in the uk there is a tradition of old retired colnels who bore the dinner guests rigid with their descriptions of old campagns ed is clearly one of this type of people who fails to see when a joke is spent phill hallam baker
talk.politics.misc	re debating special hate crimes laws was how many homosexuals in article pmrakinnpun senator bedfellow mit edu wdstarr athena mit edu william december starr writes if someone beats up a homosexual he should get charged for assault and battery why must we add gay bashing to the list isn t this a sort of double jeopardy or am i just being a fascist again douglas meier assuming the questions are not rhetorical the answers are to deter an epidemic of gay bashing that has not been deterred by assault laws no it is not double jeopardy a single act may lead to multiple charges and multiple crimes yes let s leave aside the personal insult potential that doug created by asking his last question and just concentrate on the legal political debate last point first yes a single act may lead to multiple independent charges however as a side note i think that the prohibition on double jeopardy mandates that the suspect be tried on all those charges at the same time in the same trial unless of course the government can pull the separate sovereignties crock that they re using on those four lapd cops who arrested rodney king i e trying a person who s already been acquitted in state court on federal charges arising from the same act i think that this is double jeopardy but apparently the courts don t agree with me note that the laws that don t agree with you were passed to protect a class of people who couldn t get justice from the state courts specifically civil rights workers in missisippi in the s the federal protection of individual rights supersedes the non feasance of the state something similar has long been traditional well he s queer so i beat him up for gays you pays your money and you takes your pick me i lean strongly towards the against argument i know that having the law treat everyone as equals regardless of realities will not in and of itself lead to true equality and in fact may lead at times towards greater inequality nonetheless i believe that true equality is at least possible when the laws treat people as being equal while true equality is by definition impossible when the laws themselves mandate unequal treatment of classes of people by the state william december starr wdstarr athena mit edu as anatole france said the law in its impartial majesty forbids the rich as well as the poor from sleeping under bridges equality of law can be construed in any number of ways for example the fact that all property thefts regardless of value are not punished equally is an inequality which protects those who have a lot of money from having it stolen you could easily define equality to regard the property in terms of it s significance for the owner this would a form of equality that would be skewed toward poorer people in fact most anti gay bashing laws are constructed to offer equal protection they make it an offense to damage people based on a motivation of hatred for sexual orientation thus the law in its impartial majesty protects hets as well as gays from being bashed i m sure that s a great relief to douglas meier nick nussbaum nickn eskimo com po seattle wa
talk.politics.misc	email does anyone have prez clinton s e mail address thanks a lot
talk.politics.misc	re i thought commercial advertising was not allowed in article c ske ft voder nsc com matt galaxy nsc com matt freivald x writes in article in talk politics misc decay cbnewsj cb att com dean kaflowitz in article c rt t ewp voder nsc com matt galaxy nsc com matt freivald x writes is an unborn child a human being at any point during pregnency in my opinion at all points during the pregnancy it is human you ll have to define what you mean by human being for me to answer the question as put a parallel q is a person of color a human being a you ll have to define what you mean by human being to answer your irrelevant question yes a person of color is human but i still don t know what you mean by human being and you have merely begged the question without responding by trying to inject the notion of race into the discussion you muddy the waters without adding any insight whatever the same parallel question could be is a polydactyl person a human being you still have not answered what you mean by human being please do so i would suggest that legal precedent defines a human being i e a person whose rights are protected by the constitution and the law as someone with a functioning brain could you cite some of those precedents for me or the basis of this definition while the law does allow the removal of extraordinary means of sustaining life in cases of brain death this in itself does not lead to your conclusion of how the law defines a human being however at least you defined human being in a tenuous fashion that is a person whose rights are protected by the constitution and the law for my answer to your question i refer you to roe v wade and subsequent supreme court decisions which define to what extent a fetus is protected by the constitution and the law certain judges have concurred that slavery is not a violation of human rights therefore it is not you won t answer the question and instead drag in irrelevancies if you want a definition of human being that does not depend on the vagaries of law but holds solid whatever the law may rule provide it for me i would suggest that your blind faith would not likely hold up if the shoe were on the other foot the brain life death paradigm is one that i suggest as one consistent with other legal definitions it clearly doesn t matter to you whether an unborn child has any rights or not however so the point is lost on you more irrelevancies as larry margolis pointed out the law has made special exceptions in order to include fetuses but does not follow your version of human being and as he pointed out brain death is not a means of determining who has the rights of the living but rather who has died there is a significant difference what i am wondering now is has your argument so failed you that you feel it necessary to drag out irrelevancies and leave the thread you started you got answers to your questions when you began baiting me if you recall after you had made some ridiculous remarks about adrienne regard and having been corrected changed the subject with your remarks about having a discussion of substance if you really wanted a discussion of substance why then do you disregard logic and substance in order to toss silly accussations e g it really doesn t matter to you if it matters to you then why not define human being and seek some substance you re not going to convince a logical person of the rightness of your position unless you apply some logic and show some meaning to your words if she is then why does the mother have the right to kill her when she is in the womb but not after she has passed through the birth canal because a woman has a right to have any object which threatens her health and is within the confines of her body removed the other side of the argument would give rights to the fetus that would not be granted to an adult human if for example you were occupying the body of another for whatever reason or through whatever means the reason and means being irrelevant that other would be able to remove or have you removed if that removal required your demise i see no reason in law that such a removal could not be effected rather than examining a hypothetical thought experiment let us examine a real though rare situation siamese twins if one siamese twin has the other surgically removed knowing that it will cause death and barring some emergency where they will both die anyway it is murder is it have you any support for this assertion furthermore your analogy is completely inapplicable siamese twins have an equal claim to any body parts they have in common try again what establishes this equal claim beyond your assertion if it is merely a matter of which came first cannot one kill the other since they both have equal claim what if one has more motor control than the other does that establish a superior claim as others point out one is sacrificed for the other depending on which has the better chance at survival again your analogy fails not precedence but possession makes a difference here a woman s womb is indisputably her own also i see you ignore my statement that you would grant rights to a fetus that would not be granted a born human being was that due to its inconvenience you see the right to life is granted to adult humans in the same sense as it should be to the foetus at some point prior to birth are siamese twins ever separated in the womb or is this right you assert for siamese twins which i don t even think is true as stated or valid as an analogy one that exists after birth freivald your entire argument here is a failure interesting way of trying to combine two essentially orthogonal concepts the point is that it is murder for one siamese twin to kill the other regardless of their status of physiological dependence or interdependence is it please cite a precedent and the basis of the ruling it would be difficult for one siamese twin to kill the other inside the womb and even if it were possible i doubt that a case could be made for premeditation or neglegence note the use of the phrase it should be in my post you simply assert things without any support your analogy is not accurate and your assertions are unsupported try this on for size it is not murder for one siamese twin to kill the other in the womb there we now have equal arguments but the idea is illogical for one siamese twin to kill the other in the womb would likely be to kill itself as well the systems are dependent on each other for life i m still struggling to see anything analagous here and failing to do so of course the situation is not a perfect comparison it may well be that one siamese twin deliberately initiates oppression or coersion against the other this is clearly not the case with an unborn child and this last statement from you is a total non sequitur the comparison is far worse than you give it credit for are you going to let this assertion stand on its own also or do you plan on following up with a reasoned argument your argument is from fantasy island your comparison is a total failure as i have demonstrated already and has no basis in reality neither legally nor medically and for you to assert that it is not a perfect comparison because of the impossible that of coercion or oppression is ridiculous as i said you give the analogy too little credit for failure on the one hand you start this by saying you want to take a real rather than a hypothetical situation then you fly off into siamese twins murdering one another in the womb or coercing or oppressing each other in the womb when the reality of the situation you describe in now way matches your version as i said before decisions are made regarding which twin lives and dies in situations where they cannot both survive and furthermore as i have already said there is a difference between an equal claim to organs and a claim that is unequal you seem to be asserting that a fetus has a claim on a woman s womb when the fetus is born what happens to its claim and by what reason do you assert its claim if a parent has the right to choose to not take responsibility for their own child why are there laws and penalties against child abandonment this last question is irrelevant and something of a non sequitur can you establish some relevance or even some sense for it if at some point an unborn child is a human being the parents clearly have the same responsibilities toward her as any other parents have toward their children again what is the relevance you have established no sense of when that point is you ignore the significant difference between a fetus and a born child the dependence of a born child can be transferred to another party while that of a fetus cannot a born child does not live within the body of another human being while a fetus does thereby representing potential and often actual harm to that body as in the case of one of our talk abortion participants who suffers from epilepsy and to whom pregnancy represents a significant health risk or as in the case of a woman i know who chose to continue her pregnancy but spent her entire pregnancy confined to a wheelchair and suffering great pain from constriction of some nerve and your argument is not an argument against abortion generally but at best an argument against abortion at some time during the course of pregnancy again a quest for common ground most of the pro choice people i have spoken to in person none of them pro abortion activists concede that the child has a right to life at some point that supersedes all of the mother s rights except that of her own life as is often the case in emotionally charged issues the activists have a very different outlook from the mainstream you haven t answered the question the situations are not analagous the dependence of a born child is not transferred instantaneously it takes time and effort incidentally it is the pro choice side not me arguing that the government should make it easy for parents to abandon their children to the state again you avoid the question dependence can be transferred and it is not as slow as you seem to think as to the anecdotal evidence of real human tragedy there is ample on both sides i would hate to be in the position of the mother in nyc who has to tell her daughter that she lost her arm in a botched abortion attempt yes and i d hate to have been the one to tell dr gunn s children that he was murdered by a religious pro life fanatic please do try to stay relevant the kindest thing i can say about these responses of yours is that i can see you are trying to say something but the result is a mish mash of negligible value sez you clever comeback i congratulate you on the readiness of your wit in article in talk politics misc decay cbnewsj cb att com dean kaflowitz writes ground covered in another post deleted if at some point an unborn child is a human being the parents clearly have the same responsibilities toward her as any other parents have toward their children and no parent can be forced to supply bodily resources toward their children even if necessary to save the child s life as was this to make it painfully clear you are not obligated to donate a kidney to save your child s life under law again the confusion between action deliberately taking away the life of a child and inaction refusing to run out in front of a bus to save a child what happened to that claim to bodily organs where life is at stake why does this parent now have an indisputable right to his or her kidney when previously the parent did not by your standards what is different about the two situations i see i have to spell this out for you since the meaning was too subtle for you in the one case you do not recognize a difference between a fetus and a born child you ask why a born child cannot be abandoned but a fetus can and in this case you recognize a significant difference between the fetus and born child where the lives of the two are at stake you can t have it both ways action and inaction are irrelevant to the principle but you are wrong about the inaction anyway ask any of the numerous women who post here and have borne children how inactive their pregnancy was to have a healthy live child a woman does more than hang out eat as she chooses plays volleyball like she always did drinks at parties with her friends etc she behaves very differently and the provision of her resources to a fetus may be no more voluntary than the beating of her heart but it is far from inactive dean kaflowitz
talk.politics.misc	re i thought commercial advertising was not allowed in article c sma gk voder nsc com matt galaxy nsc com matt freivald x writes in article in talk politics misc margoli watson ibm com larry margolis writes i would suggest that legal precedent defines a human being i e a person whose rights are protected by the constitution and the law as someone with a functioning brain no if you want to use legal precedent you should take a look at the model penal code on which many states base their criminal code my apologies if i was unclear i was not trying to start a statutory debate since there are many in some cases conflicting statutes on the books i was merely suggesting a paradigm that might make sense for a pro choicer imho cite one of these conflicting statutes you keep making these assertions but you haven t supported any of them yet i am speaking of statutes that conflict with the definition larry posted why did you delete the code that larry posted also the model penal code made perfect sense to me were you perhaps confused by it also i am still looking for your definition the one you used clearly indicates that a fetus is not a human being this is not likely to please either pro lifers or pro choicers but it is pretty clear from the legal medical concept of brain death brain death is a method of deciding when a known person is legally dead there s no analogous concept of brain birth i have just coined it you may object to the paradigm but it would make our treatment of human life statutorily consistent circular arguments are usually very consistent if a parent has the right to choose to not take responsibility for their own child why are there laws and penalties against child abandonment this last question is irrelevant and something of a non sequitur can you establish some relevance or even some sense for it if at some point an unborn child is a human being the parents clearly have the same responsibilities toward her as any other parents have toward their children and no parent can be forced to supply bodily resources toward their children even if necessary to save the child s life there is a confusion here between action and inaction a parent does not have to run out in front of a bus to save their child s life either but a parent is required to feed his children again your desire for consistency disappears when it does not suit your needs the principle of protecting life is abandoned based on action versus inaction not much of a principle suddenly you recognize that the claim on bodily resources is dependent on circumstances other than this principle of life that s a very conevnient principle you have there matt dean kaflowitz
talk.politics.misc	re top ten comments overheard in the secret service lounge in article c cli g dscomsa desy de hallam zeus desy de writes in article phgakinn pb apache dtcc edu bob hobbes dtcc edu bob rahe writes in the uk there is a tradition of old retired colnels who bore the dinner guests rigid with their descriptions of old campagns ed is clearly one of this type of people who fails to see when a joke is spent you are hereby authorized not to laugh by special dispensation of her hillariness this offer void where prohibited by law consumer must pay applicable sales tax bob rahe delaware tech comm college aids drugs abortion internet bob hobbes dtcc edu don t liberals just kill you ci genie bob rahe save whales and kill babies
talk.politics.misc	re hard times investments was no subject given in a previous article riggs descartes etl army mil bill riggs says i don t believe in the wave theory you don t have to it believes in you horses she keeps telling me that inflation is coming back and to lock in my fixed rate mortgage as low as possible well looking at our new government pals i m inclined to agree i don t much believe in our money either maybe you d like to invest in some foreign currency oh ho ho if only you knew yup i m definitely checking out foreign currency thanks to to this newsgroup it sure doesn t take much thinking to realize what direction the u s is headed sigh speculators never learn oh ho ho speculator me no no i m going with a sure thing sure as bust in california real estate
talk.politics.misc	re top ten responses to ed s top ten lists in a previous article mconners magnus acs ohio state edu michael r conners says in article c zreh c s news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby write s the real question should the feds bail out steve jobs next a la chrysler so that important manufacturing jobs wouldn t be lost no the real question should the feds bail out ibm a la chrysler so that important k manufacturing jobs wouldn t be lost it could be part of the jobs bill
talk.politics.misc	haiti aids hiv immigrants in case you missed it on the news the first haitians of many that tested positive for hiv and were being held on a base in cuba have been flown to the u s further a u s judge has ruled that they must receive medical treatment or be returned to a place where they could receive same so guess what folks we taxpayers get to pick up the tab just as you might have expected for people who have never contributed a dime to the u s society i think this government has its priorities all screwed up if they want to help haitians how about removing the illegal government how about giving them development aid it does not make sense to waste resources on dying non citizens who will never be productive in either this country or their own it does not make sense when the same resources applied or even just plain given to poor people in haiti could significantly help people in haiti per aids infected non citizen immigrant
talk.politics.misc	re debating special hate crimes laws in article apr midway uchicago edu thf midway uchicago edu said this sort of separate treatment by the law has no place in an equal society the solution to the fact that some classes are more vulnerable to attack or discrimination is to do what has always been done in response to imbalances in criminal activity and citizen protection to allocate law enforcement resources to more efficiently and effectively deal with the problems not to rewrite the law itself wdstarr so how do you feel about increased penalties for killing a policeman a federal employee or to use both scalia s and stevens s example increased penalties for threatening the president i m assuming that like all good people you oppose the marital exemption for rape so i won t bring that up in order of your questions i oppose it i oppose it i oppose it and huh wha where did that topic come from and what s it got to do with the discussion at hand when i was discussing the concept of different criminal laws for crimes against different classes of people and yes i do consider laws which allow mandate enhanced penalties following conviction based upon the convict s attitudes towards the class membership of the victim to fit into that category the category of classes i had in mind was that of the standard civil rights discussion classes based upon race gender ethnicity religion sexual orientation etc having you ask about classes based upon one s profession rather than one s personal characteristics caught me off guard and i had to think out the question from scratch what i finally decided was that the law should not recognize such classes because to do so would be to formally and officially declare some people to be of more worth than others and that would be anathema to the underlying american concept of equal treatment under the law last year when a federal crime bill was under consideration which would have expanded the federal death penalty to an additional fifty plus crimes including the murder of various federal officers hitherto not protected by that aura of deterrence critics pointed out the absurdity of having laws which made the death penalty available for the murder of a federal postal inspector but not for ther murder of a civilian teacher when the latter arguably provided a much more valueable service and therefore would be the greater loss to society this was an emotionally compelling argument but even the proponents of that viewpoint appeared to tacitly assume that the state should judge some lives as being more valuable than others on the basis of their contribution to society i view that doctrine as being both a personally repugnant and b repugnant to the equal protection clause of the th amendment accordingly i believe that there should be no laws which give any profession based class of people special protection via the mechanism of supplying stronger statutory deterrence of crimes against members of that class not even police officers federal officers or high ranking members of the executive branch of the federal government william december starr wdstarr athena mit edu
talk.politics.misc	e mail to the hill now that clinton can get e mail i m wondering if congress is also going on line if so does anyone have the address to reach them i m also looking for bill s e mail address please e mail me i am not a regualar reader of this newsgrouop
talk.politics.misc	re government mandated energy conservation is unnecessary and wastful study finds in article c vzu i r newsserver technet sg ipser solomon technet sg ed ipser writes government mandated energy conservation is unnecessary and wastful study finds while i agree with much of this post one point seems mis directed when standards of living population densities and industrial structures are controlled for the united states is no less energy efficient than japan and more energy efficient than many of the group of seven nations and when controlled for usage of oil gas etc energy efficiency in all countries turns out to be identical to take population density as an example one way to reduce energy used in transportation is surely to concentrate the population in dense urban areas though this might of course have other disadvantages possibly even relating to energy use the fact that japan is forced to do this by the nature of the country while the us is not does not mean that people in the us would be unable to do this if given sufficient motive to conserve energy radford neal
talk.politics.misc	re damn ferigner s be taken over in article apr vm mcgill ca cz musica mcgill ca cz writes mark anthony young pps many americans have a special legal status based on a mere accident of birth only people born in the us can become president of the us and since parliament could theoretically replace the queen with anyone they want even a ferigner us law is in one dimension more restictive than uk law as regards birth privileges this is not just theoretical note how ferigner william iii was imported from holland to kick out local boy james ii which provided the basis for the denoument of the film which introduced errol flynn to the world love interest was olivia de havilland who went on to appear with flynn in more films exercise for non old movie buffs what film was this exercise for old movie buffs what were the more films the views expressed herein are theodore a kaldis my own only do you seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe that a major university rutgers remus rutgers edu kaldis as this would hold such views
talk.politics.misc	re stop putting down white het males it may be a little late to reply to your tirade and also on an inaapropriate board but along with all of the so called great things the white male has done they have also contributed to society by means of mass genocide the theft of ideas and cultures creating and the perptration of historical lies throughouttime among many other horrible activities but every culture has its upside and its downside it seems to me that the white male must be extremely ignorant to qualify for the following if you re not disregard and western culture are the only things that look to actively classify things as good or bad worthy or unworthy ya dig it can be seen with slavery and the manipulation and destruction of the american indians civilization nothing but selfish acts that benefit one group of people and not even their women get or got respected or regarded as equal ain t that some stuff white men not being specific but in a lot of cases are just wack or have wack conceptions of how the world is to serve their purpose just look at david koresh throughout history i may be shortsighted on this one so excuse my predjudiced ignorance only white men associate themselves withbeing god no other culture is ignorant or arrogant enough to assume such a position and then to manipulate and mislead all those people hmmm i d say look in your history books but since it seems that history has been written to glorify the exploits of white men you d only find lies awww that s enough already from me because this has nothing to do with sex or this board if ya d like to continue this discussion e mail me and we can compare and contrast ideas i like conflict it s educational when the communcation is good my worth i apologize to those who thought this was going to be about sex but i was prompted by a response i found up here dave lewis frisky hands man
talk.politics.misc	re supply side revenue in article c t j b newsserver technet sg ipser solomon technet sg ed ipser writes the result is that clinton now hopes to reduce the deficit to a level above where it was when reagan left office which considering the amount bush congress added to it would be a not inconsiderable achievement while we re on the subject i also believe that the supply side claim that reducing taxes raised revenue is also false because they typically factor in socsec taxes which were raised a considerable amount at the same time that income taxes were cut if you look at income tax revenue alone it fell after after the cuts began and didn t recover for several years by then record deficits were well entrenched chew on that awhile crunch crunch steve soar
talk.politics.misc	re formal rebuttal to the presumption of jurisdiction kaldis romulus rutgers edu theodore a kaldis writes in article apr midway uchicago edu thf kimbark uchicago edu ted frank writes you re not breathing clean air provided by government regulations if this doesn t beat all i ever heard the above certainly says a mouthful about the mindset of ted frank and also of statists everywhere yes there s certainly no need to argue with him or address the substance of what he says he s a statist after all probably politically correct too bill
talk.politics.misc	re supply side economic policy in article pyramid pyramid com pcollac pyrnova mis pyramid com paul collacchi writes in article ufk gqu wbke cx v andrew cmu edu ashish andrew cmu edu ashish arora writes excerpts from netnews sci econ apr re supply side economic po by not a boomer desire wrig the deficits declined from reaching a low of of gnp before the tax and spending hike of reversed the trend brett is this true some more details would be appreciated cheers actually not brett himself has actually posted the data previously what declined from to as i remember it was percent increase in deficit growth i e the rate of growth of the deficit nd derivative of total deficit with respect of to time decreased would you please define nth derivative of debt last time i asked you seem to have disappeared and it s the deficits themselves that came down to of gnp the numbers are posted in the previous posting brett apparently has numbed himself into thinking that the deficit declined cute paul but with no numbers you still look foolish if you keep spending more than you earn the deficit keeps growing paul like many others is confusing the deficit with the debt if you keep borrowing at a lesser rate than you borrowed previously the deficit increases you only decrease deficits when your income exceeds spending and you use the difference to pay off debts not in terms of gnp the one universally accepted measure of deficits at least among rigorous economists arguments were brilliant he confirmed with data what many of us know with common sense the boom of the s has nothing to do with government policy particularly supply side policy since taxes do not cause economic activities people cause economic activity more can be semantics lindsey proves otherwise taxes make people change their economic activities or shall we debate whether it is the gun the bullet or the person who does the killing explained by watching population waves roll through the years and create cycles he has made models and predictions for years well into the middle of next century it will be neat to see how accurate he is or whether this gentleman can win the same praise as lindsey brett there s nothing so passionate as a vested interest disguised as an intellectual conviction sean o casey in the white plague by frank herbert
talk.politics.misc	re supply side economic policy was re david stockman in article ufk gqu wbke cx v andrew cmu edu ashish arora ashish andrew cmu edu writes excerpts from netnews sci econ apr re supply side economic po by not a boomer desire wrig the deficits declined from reaching a low of of gnp before the tax and spending hike of reversed the trend brett is this true some more details would be appreciated in billions of dollars gnp year gnp receipts outlays deficit debt unempl admin carter carter carter carter reagan reagan reagan reagan reagan reagan reagan reagan bush bush bush source statistical abstract of the us version american almanac version universal almanac version information please almanac version graphically deficits as a of gnp gnp x x x x x x x x x ironically bush could have frozen spending kept his no new taxes pledge and balanced the budget brett there s nothing so passionate as a vested interest disguised as an intellectual conviction sean o casey in the white plague by frank herbert
talk.politics.misc	re a loathesome subject in ppjruinnhnt elroy jpl nasa gov carlos beowulf jpl nasa gov carlos carrion writes in article c y dd l n panix com roy panix com roy radow writes but this does not imply that all relationships between youth and adults are exploitative and abusive the critical factor here is whether the sexual activity is forced or whether it is an activity that is consensually agreed upon and freely engaged in by the people involved when a child is forced there is often damage on the other hand wholeheartedly agree here consensual relationships are often found to be positive experiences for all concerned why do i find this hard to believe care to convince us carlos why not check out some of the scientific research that has been done in this area and convince yourself research around the world indicates that the issue of coercion is the critical factor for those interested in research on the topic i can suggest li et al england constantine united states and sandfort the netherlands i especially like sandfort s research for he actually quotes what the boys who are involved in the relationships have to say children and sex new findings new perspectives by larry constantine floyd m martinson eds little brown co boston boys on their contacts with men by theo sandfort global academic publishers elmhurst new york perspectives on paedophilia by brian taylor ed batsford academic educational ltd london paedophilia a factual report by frits bernard enclave rotterdam the netherlands sexual experience between men and boys by parker rossman maurice temple smith ltd middlesex great britain children s sexual encounters with adults by c k li d j west t p woodhouse gerald duckworth co london yours in liberation roy roy radow roy panix com rutgers cmcl panix roy north american man boy love association for a packet containing a sample bulletin publications list and membership information send postage to nambla info dept rr po box midtown station nyc ny
talk.politics.misc	re hard times investments was no subject given in article tecsun tec army mil riggs descartes etl army mil bill riggs writes my mother in law who grew up in germany doesn t believe in money at all she started out as a real estate developer and now raises horses she keeps telling me that inflation is coming back and to lock in my fixed rate mortgage as low as possible if time is really hard can a bank selectively call in some mortgage loans early what if the bank folds can its creditors call in the loans
talk.politics.misc	urgent ted frank wanted for killing aj teel his account that is many important issues and some not so important ones are discussed here on the net on a daily basis i have just been informed of what i feel is one of the most important things that we could ever discuss the out and out censorship of one of our fellow posters because some people don t like what he says or thinks we have all seen the postings here by aj teel although many of us have not agreed with their content i m sure most of us have been at least somewhat interested in them i for one am greatful to live i thought in a country where people like mr teel are allowed to say what they please if i don t wan t to read it i can just skip on by or unsuscribe but unfortunately some people cannot let others live and let live they feel an overwhelming need to snuff out the little bastards now it seems that mr teel will be with us no more due mainly to our brother and cheif net police ted frank please help aj teel regain net post access and correct this injustice are you on ted s hit list are your thoughts correct is your account safe has your sysadmin been contacted by the thought police i thought the nlg and the aclu supported people with diverse opinions not please read the following forwarded messages from aj teel so that you may understand this vial act for what it is forwarded newsgroups alt activism alt conspiracy talk politics misc misc legal subject officer ted frank thought police badge number nwo summary ted wins the argument by killing his opponent expires distribution organization university of colorado boulder keywords nwo ted frank well well well thanks to eck panix com mark eckenwiler and thf kimbark uchicago edu ted frank my account is to be axed i guess that the information i am presenting is just toooo difficult for them to deal with they only ted and mark have complained to my sysadmin some unknown number of times to get me off the net in his defense mark sent only one message and it was not that bad it has been posted in one of the newsgroups however it was not directed at me as would be common practice and i am very good at responding via netmail while i disagree with ted i would not send mail to his sysadmin to get him axed name calling was not enough jumping on every post i made was not enough ignoring specific points when they were not what the desired picture was not enough simply ignoring me if i am such a kook was not enough even now i do not wish to have him axed but i do wish to express my disgust about this argumentum ad silence your opponent um i would have thought he would have wanted me to stay around just to have someone to yell about and seem sooo wise to himself i think the issue that seems to be is the following an advertisement apparently ted and mark think so i posted an article from around one year ago as it was taken off the net from last year if reposting an article constitutes posting an ad then i am guilty this post did have a name and address and yes a price if one had posted the address and subscription price of newsweek would that be an ad i get nothing from showing this stuff i posted a list of documents showing examples of the kind of proof that was requested by ted frank he then complains to my sysadmin saying that i am advertising and lo and behold poof there goes my account this one had an address in it oh no i guess that means it is an ad if you value the alternative view i have been discussing or value its discussion even if you do not agree with it i ask that you send a note saying as much to me to show to the sysadmin they rarely get ya know that user on your net was real helpful or whatever they only get i don t like what that user is doing because please do not send the note to the sysadmin i need to take it to them in a manner that has at least a chance of getting through in my files here are hundreds of responses from people saying thanks for the info or could you send me such and such or your posts are very interesting keep it up and only a handfull of go aways but i guess the fact that i have decided not to waste my time trying to convince ted is a net offense tm of such magnitude as to warrant a message complaining about me knock knock my name is ted and and this is mark we re from the thought police seems you have some pretty dangerous ideas here and we re here to confiscate them nwo indeed guess i will have to go back to the drawing board and come up with a new plan thanks ted and mike hope you are happy i will be on for a few more days and then that s all folks your comments and support are requested i can no longer post to news i ask what this has accomplished is there some benefit from making alternative views simply vanish not in my book seems the easiest way to win an argument is to make the opposing side shut up images of waco ah but alas and all this when i am in the process of typing in a letter to me from the tax collector saying that a lien was removed due to a letter that i wrote challenging jurisdiction oh well it takes time to come up with the info requested and i was just getting started it should be noted that ted frank has been accused publicly over times of being an nwo supporter and has never made an statements to the contrary further what are ted frank s motivations for getting me axed we all know that some people are getting paid to collect info on people on the net that are of interest to the government and ted sure seems to have a personal interest in debunking me hmmm just who does he work for the university of chicago which he attends is well known as one of the biggest nwo supporters and finally if anyone would be able to help me find a new account here in the boulder denver area i would greatly appreciate it i am in the process of installing linux and so will be able to do uucp or maybe a tc ip connection any help here would be greatly appreciated since i am longer be able to post news and will no longer have email very soon i hope that anyone who wishes to contact me will do so via a j teel sui juris c o usps box boulder colorado u s a postal zone or leave me voice mail at c o selected messages from ted frank via sysadmin follows with explicit reservation of all rights u c c regards a j teel sui juris ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu from barb locutus cs colorado edu mon apr received from locutus cs colorado edu by dendrite cs colorado edu with smtp id aa c ida for ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu mon apr received by locutus cs colorado edu with smtp id aa c ida for ajteel mon apr message id aa locutus cs colorado edu to ted frank thf midway uchicago edu subject re list of documents cc cstmr locutus cs colorado edu csops locutus cs colorado edu ajteel locutus cs colorado edu vaxops locutus cs colorado edu reply to trouble cs colorado edu in reply to your message of mon apr cdt date mon apr from barb locutus cs colorado edu status or please ask to stop advertising his wares on the network thank you editor s note in article apr colorado edu ajteel writes start of document doclist txt lis documents now available bill medina sui juris post office box sunnyvale california u s a postal zone lines deleted resolution thank you he has been warned before we are taking action barbara j dyker department of computer science manager computer operations campus box b ecee barb cs colorado edu university of colorado boulder co from barb locutus cs colorado edu mon apr received from locutus cs colorado edu by dendrite cs colorado edu with smtp id aa c ida for ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu mon apr received by locutus cs colorado edu id aa c ida for ajteel mon apr date mon apr from barbara dyker barb locutus cs colorado edu message id aa locutus cs colorado edu received by next mailer received by next mailer to ajteel locutus cs colorado edu subject your account cc vaxops locutus cs colorado edu usenet locutus cs colorado edu mozer locutus cs colorado edu status or i had already warned you that your inappropriate use of your account here must stop you have used your account here as a soapbox for your political sui juris agenda date tue mar from barb locutus cs colorado edu to ajteel locutus cs colorado edu also if you are reported for any more commercial announcements your account may be disabled editor s note what commercial advertisemnets are we talking about from barb bruno cs colorado edu to a j teel ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu date tue mar mst as long as they aren t causing any problems we typically don t mind we have received two complaints about the content of your messages so far at least one of which i consider valid which already constitutes excessive in my book just don t let it happen again editor s note i wonder who the other post was from from laszlo eclipse cs colorado edu thu mar to ted frank thf midway uchicago edu subject re bouncing cc cstmr eclipse cs colorado edu csops eclipse cs colorado edu reply to trouble cs colorado edu in reply to your message of wed mar cst date thu mar mst from laszlo eclipse cs colorado edu in article mar colorado edu ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu bounced names garry research att com bill kean usc mun ca jad hopper virginia edu kima gator rational com hello all i am having trouble reaching the following keeps bouncing if you sent me mail and haven t gotten a response check here also can anyone tell me why these are bouncing i used the reply in elm which should send it right back right with explicit reservation of all rights u c c regards a j teel sui juris ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu editor s note the reason for posting the header lines from the bounced messages was to show what the problem was and hopefully correct it ted frank it s inexcusable to post lines of bounced mail headers to four newsgroups a simple four line post would have been sufficient resolution lazlo yes i agree but our policy is to not watch everypost someone here makes we generally let the net itself take care of inappropriate postings by flaming the user into shape which i assume this is ment to be we cs operations don t like to get involved in this stuff unless its illegal repetitive posts of gig gifs harassment or something else that offends the community in general my suggestion is that you take it to email and explain what a post for bounces should look like or tell him to rtfm laz editor s note obviously ted had no such intention of doing so ted frank however teel should have mentioned that though thf kimbark uchicago edu his advice is legally sound if you follow it the u of c law school you will probably wind up in jail standard disclaimers james donald in misc legal editor s note from this sig it seems obvious that ted frank has an axe to grind why that particular quote hmmm sure makes me wonder lance w bledsoe lwb im u cs utexas edu ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free
talk.politics.misc	re news you may have missed arf genesis mcs com jack schmidling writes in article pprtvinnctl aludra usc edu sgoldste aludra usc edu fogbound child writes arf genesis mcs com jack schmidling writes in article apr rapnet sanders lockheed com babb k scott babb writes jack schmidling arf genesis mcs com wrote jac y virginia edu jonathan a cook jac y writes why do you restrict your condemnation of racial strife to israel do the situations in bosnia tibet china etc not merit your comment as far as i am aware we have not sent close to billion dollars to let s not exaggerate i notice you did not offer an alternative number try this one on for size by the year american taxpayers will have given israel one dollar for every star in the milky way galaxy i will let you look up the number ok i admit i have no hard data on this why don t you help me with this if you would compile a commented list of all grants un repaid loans if any and direct aid i d be very interested to see it if you could give me references from for example congressional budget authorization hearings i could look them up here and i d be happy to post a verification of your data otherwise i ll try my hand at this but unfortunately i won t have sufficient time available until the end of this month so the results would be delayed let me know if you re interested in doing this samuel mossad special agent id media spiking and mind control division los angeles offices pratice safe signature prevent dangerous signature virii guildenstern our names shouted in a certain dawn a message a summons there must have been a moment at the beginning where we could have said no but somehow we missed it
talk.politics.misc	re defense against the detractors in article apr colorado edu ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu a j teel writes in article c tdab a o panix com eck panix com mark eckenwiler writes in apr colorado edu ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu sez i would have thought you would have found better means of refuting or responding to the substantive points and information in the s b the s b needs no refutation by me the patent absurdity of your beloved great book speaks for itself your ignorance is clearly showing itself again mark why don t you read the post and show us all where the silver bulletin is wrong it is an expose of the corruption and fraud in government or do you feel that our wonderful state is just nifty and sweet fine if you think it s an expose of corruption and fraud please prevent a jury question don t just reassert your opening statement for those in the dark i wrote to teel s sysadmin noting that a he wastes bandwidth by posting identical messages long ones to several newsgroups independently instead of cross posting and b he has improperly used his posts to advertise goods for sale a i was requested to post to those groups and they were getting deleted by whom b the goods for sale was a method of showing the source and obtaining further info and the message in question was retrieved in its entirety from the net i simply reposted it from one year ago would there be a complaint if i had posted an article from newsweek then posted the address and subscription price how about the subscription info for the american law review bit of a double standard yeah think so no indication that was what happened until now editing down is always possible readers more careful than a j will note that the complaint appended below expressly disclaims any wish to suppress teel s postings merely because they are infantile irrational and tedious more name calling mark is that your best shot oh i see the reason for your sending that letter had nothing to do with your opinion of my information right clearly your motivations were the best interest of all of those poor users who could not speak for themselves if we weren t talking about attempted censorship sp it would be funny further your perception for want of a better term is not the feedback that i have been getting via email and others the keep it up s outnumber the go away s at least to it would be interesting to hear who the responding parties are i for one have no intention of being a slave you may be so if you like just remember where you heard that on tribute day april i am not a th amendment taxpayer slave ssn holder etc are you for discussion purposes only don t let the irs see this mr teel and by the way the reference to ucc is made in pari materia with my common law rights is the recourse and is the remedy and as has been noted more times than we care to count about as likely to stand up in court as the twenty seven eight by ten color glossy pictures the stockbridge mass police took for use as evidence against arlo guthrie as anyone who knows alice s restaurant is aware he pleaded guilty to littering was fined and told to pick up the garbage daniel reitman how not to write a deed one case involved the construction of a conveyance to grantees jointly as tenants in common with equal rights and interest in said land and to the survivor thereof in fee simple to have and to hold the same unto the said parties hereto equally jointly as tenants in common with equal rights and interest for the period or term of their lives and to the survivor thereof at the death of the other the court held that the survivorship provision indicated an intent to create a joint tenancy germain v delaine ala so d
talk.politics.misc	re bill conklin et al s letter in article apr midway uchicago edu thf kimbark uchicago edu ted frank writes in article apr colorado edu ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu a j teel writes well the two nifty letters giving concrete proof that the income tax is voluntary and giving specific procedures for stopping withholding et cetera have been out there for a while now there has been no refutation to date have the nay sayers finally given up as defeated sure would like to hear there reasons for disbelief at this point probably because you have yet to respond to the refutation i ve posted teel it s bad enough you post this bs it s even worse that you don t even try to defend it when it gets torn to pieces but then posting that no one s looked at it and gloating when all facts point to the contrary point to a severely deluded mind what i found interesting about conklin s letter is the cases he has won against the irs now assuming that these cases really exist and were one by him anyone checked they may have nothing to do with his major tax claim the irs fought one of his deductions defending your deductions seems puny when you believe that there is no need to file in the first place bernard silver gte laboratories bsilver gte com
talk.politics.misc	re why not concentrate on child molesters in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes yet when a law was proposed for virginia that extended this philosophy to cigarette smokers so that people who smoked away from the work couldn t be discriminated against by employers the liberal gov wilder vetoed it which shows that liberals don t give a damn about best person for the job it s just a power play of course clayton ignores the fact that employers pay health insurance and insurance for smokers is more expensive than for non smokers greg hennessy university of virginia usps mail astronomy department charlottesville va usa internet gsh w virginia edu uucp uunet virginia gsh w
talk.politics.misc	re hilter and homosexuals cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes ericsc x k apz netcom com erics netcom com eric smith writes gsmith lauren iwr uni heidelberg de gene w smith writes are you saying that people voted for hitler and he became reich chancellor in good part because he used bully boys to attack communists hitler did not become become reich chancellor because people voted for him i m not sure if you meant to imply that or not but i just thought i d bring that up hitler became chancellor because people voted for his political party that s not a huge difference in a parliamentary system your statement is a common misconception but it just isn t true in the german weimar system the chancellor was not necessarily the leader of the largest reichstag party the chancellor was appointed by the president and generally was the leader of a coalition of parties who could form an effective majority in the reichstag beyond that the implication that hitler rose to the chancellorship because a majority of germans wanted nazi rule is false as well before president hindenburg appointed hitler chancellor in january the german people did not show a particular desire to be led either by hitler or by the nazi party these are the results of the march election for president the closest hitler ever came to direct election hindenburg hitler thaelmann duesterberg in the runoff election in april the results were hindenburg hitler thaelmann so we can see that hitler personally was supported by only about a third of german voters similarly the nazi party never received more than of the vote in reichstag elections that occurred in july in the november election the nazis lost two million votes and seats down from to out of the in the reichstag comparitively the socialists had and the communists the communists had gained seats and the german national party which had supported the previous government had picked up a million of the nazis lost votes to gain seats up to i think the other large party was the catholic center party i don t know how many seats they had but i think they were declining and there were numerous other small parties thus the nazi vote was on the decline at the time hitler was appointed chancellor what brought hitler to power was not the demand of the german people for hitler or the nazis to run things but the inability of the other parties to put their differences behind them in favor of forming an effective government for the country germany did not have an enduring democratic tradition and their parliamentary system lacked effective center parties that favored the interests of the majority of the population instead what they had was a number of small parties who were unable to put aside their own specific objectives in order to combine against the nazis who were out to end the democratic process in fact part of the problem was that some of the other parties with substantial representation like the communists were also out to end the democratic process but with different results in mind and generally didn t mind seeing parliamentary democracy go under germany had already had a non nazi chancellor with a majority coalition for five months while the nazis had been the largest reichstag party and there certainly was no danger of a revolution in favor of the nazis if anything the nazis were starting to get desperate because they had failed to get enough support to make hitler president and their popular vote had begun to decline hitler was not hindenburg s first choice to be chancellor not even his second choice first von papen had been chancellor since june after the november election when the nazis lost seats hindenburg first prevailed on von papen to remain as chancellor but there were intrigues behind his back and support for him was lacking so then hindenburg turned to von schleicher who became chancellor for two months eventually he too was unable to hold together a working coalition of parties to oppose the nazis who refused to participate in any government that was not led by a nazi chancellor some of the nazi leadership particularly gregor strasser who was the man in the party at the time wanted to participate in a coalition government but others knowing the party s support was waning figured that their best hope to gain power lay in undermining the democratic process nevertheless the country was governed for seven months by chancellors who were not nazis even though the nazis were the largest reichstag party the failure of these men to achieve a working coalition was due to the inability of their coalition parties to work together here s how william shirer puts it in the rise and fall of the third reich the cardinal error of the germans who opposed nazism was their failure to unite against it at the crest of their popular strength in july the national socialists had attained but percent of the vote but the percent of the german people who expressed their opposition to hitler were much too divided and shortsighted to combine against a common danger which they must have known would overwhelm them unless they united however temporarily to stamp it out true the german people supported hitler after he became chancellor but that doesn t change the fact that there was not overwhelming support for him before he was in power the german people were not crying out for hitler to take over no matter how bad economic conditions were the leftist parties socialists communists probably had more support in total than the nazis hitler used the fact that others were passively or actively willing to see the government paralyzed as a means to taking it over eric smith erics netcom com erics infoserv com ci
talk.politics.misc	re economic stimulus or pork in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes in fact no one has such a list the clinton package as presently proposed includes a variety of recommended spending areas and dollar amounts it does not include a line by line list of every project that would be funded congress may include such line items in the bill when it passes likewise it may prohibit spending for specific projects as amendments to the bill such amendments positive and negative are often pointed to by those who propose a line item veto or enhanced recision power for the president some of the billion package is in the form of block grants to states and localities this is why i asked to be enlightened you are making claims about what is or is not part of this program but if the block grants go to states and cities the mayors list is very relivent i d suggest contacting your local officials reading a newspaper with good coverage of congress washington post ny times or if you re serious about paying attention to these issues get copies of congressional quarterly at your library or have your representative put you on the mailing list for the congressional record it s free but be prepared to invest more time in the effort than it takes to watch the evening news or read your local paper okay scarasm does deserve sacrasm but i already contact my local officals my congress rep senators watch evening news news programs and c span in addition to the cherry picking that went on with the mayors wish list congressional republicans selected wish list projects from a variety of federal agencies based apparently upon how silly the names of the projects sounded i m not even sure if they bothered to correlate a potential expenditure of an agency in clinton s bill with a potential project from the same agency but it is clear that the effort was to make clinton s potential expenditures appear to be linked to projects with absurd names not to be taken seriously any more than equivalent tactics by democrats would have been in the reagan bush era the fact is that primetime tm of abc has had numberous reposts on such waste programs that already exist again if we are truely intrested in eliminating the debt we must remove the deficit and do away with all pork i realize that it is tempting to believe that government is in the hands of clowns who are dishonest at best but such simplistic analysis does little to advance the cause of public education there have been several books written on gov waste network news programs from time to time devote segments to this and there have been bills proposed that significantly reduces expenditures without touching external programs by changing the way congress does business and make it more efficent true blame is easy but also is spending someone else s money clinton ran on a platform that he would not raise taxes on the middle class to pay for these his programs he has proposed a program that is not specific that counts on tax hikes to pay for ken m edwards bell northern research research triangle park nc email cnc a bnr ca ham n zbb all opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer or co workers family friends congress or president you d better call my dad my mom s pretty busy chelsea clinton
talk.politics.misc	re top ten comments overheard in the secret service lounge in article apr highlite uucp croaker highlite uucp francis a ney says of who else but president of the united states william jefferson clinton it s a much better deal to have him end his term of office in disgrace after watching all his liberal democrat friends on his staff run this nation down the toilet tsk surely you don t wish for the democrats to destroy our beloved country just so your party can get some trivial political advantage that s rather a petty way to think not that this pettiness doesn t extend all the way to the u s senate i ve noticed while bush was president i kept hoping and praying that he d wise up i couldn t stand the man but i wish he d done a decent job if so we might not be in the mess we are now and that would be a small price to pay for suffering through another term of republican control similarily you should be hoping and praying that clinton does a good job even if you re certain he won t so i propose that we destroy the moon neatly solving that problem your blood pressure just went up mark sachs is mbs psuvm psu edu disclaimer if psu knew i had opinions they d try to charge me for them
talk.politics.misc	re top ten reasons not to aid russians in article c qr duu encore com rcollins encore com roger collins writes julie eddie jpl nasa gov julie kangas writes i suggest you listen very carefully to the stuff yeltsin and his people are saying and compare that with the very anti west slogans coming from his opponents in the russian congress i sure know who i want to back could we back him without forcing others to back him at the point of a gun if we had backed him strongly early on i doubt there would be the problem there is now many russians became disillusioned with democracy and reforms when they felt rightly imo that the west didn t care yeltsin was virtually promised massive aid once bush got over his gorby mania this probably kept him from dismantling the congress and calling for new elections well the aid didn t come through and we didn t make sure it went to the proper places and now the anti reformers are gaining strength where before they were in hiding have you considered a non interventionist policy if market reform does happen russia will certainly get private capital at private risk to help their economy they will even have incentive to do so for the same reason if they don t reform then our government will probably consider them enemies anyway and rather spend money to hurt rather than help them if they don t reform i don t believe in giving them money however i think this is too important to take a non interventionist approach this is what really bugs me about libertarianism it sounds like it ll all be the same in a hundred years time no need to do anything how does this affect us well we are on the same planet and if vast tracks of europe are blown away i think we d feel something a massive breakup of a country that spans th the planet is bound to have affects here of course there is also the humanitarian argument that democracies should help other democracies or struggling democracies if a billion gift was that important to our well being couldn t it be raised voluntarilly people already give over billion a year to charity despite the wishes of libertarians this society is a far way and getting farther from being libertarian perhaps voluntary gifts would work if we had the proper framework but we do not have it we have to face the problem now not in x years when we have a libertarian dream society right now there are huge stumbling blocks to trade let alone charity there are still limitations to high tech exports nasa can t buy proton launch vehicles from them sure the market may be able to help a great deal but it can t right now there are too many obstacles instead of fighting against the aid you should be fighting to tear down the obstacles the market and charities have to face seriously everyone has different opinions on what is stupid my two causes are aid to russia and a strong space program someone else will champion welfare or education or doing studies of drunken goldfish that is why we have a republic and not a true democracy instead of gridlock on a massive scale we only have gridlock on a congressional scale it seems instead of gridlock on any scale we have aid to russia expensive space programs national charity that doesn t help the poor and probably studies of drunken goldfish i think limited government is more key than how democratic it is well i think limited government is primarily democratic due to it being limited but the main question is how do you transform a state run economy and monolithic government into something that even remotely looks like ours btw sometimes it seems that our government is trying to go the opposite direction it is not going to be painless and not going to be easy we simply cannot wait to help when they have the proper government they ll never get there without the aid it may be too late already btw who is to decide stupid this is just like those who want to impose their morals on others just the sort of thing i thought libertarians were against that was an opinion and libertarians are very big on free speech and i m just excercising mine actually my politics are pretty libertarian except on this one issue and this is why it is impossible for me to join the party it seems that libertarians want to withdraw from the rest of the world and let it sink or swim if you are pretty libertarian except on this one issue then you should be very libertarian consider it a compromise how much money would your fellow russia aiders have to give to russia if those you oppose weren t using the same government machine to steal money from you and your group for causes you don t support as i also said above another problem i have is with transformation a libertarian society is not going to happen painlessly or overnight i have seen nothing about how to take our current government and society and turn it into a minimal government and a responsible self sufficient populace we could do that years ago but not now people have been saying that for hundreds of years they didn t have nuclear weapons years ago nor instantaneous communications nor travel to virtually anyplace on the earth in less than a day like it or not we are in the beginnings of a global economy and global decision making all the more reason to depend on the free market which can more efficiently process information than to depend on rulers for decisions on complex issues yes depend on the rulers of the free market and the businesses rulers do emerge somewhere and they will never represent the opinions of every person on the planet there must be checks and balances checks on the government when it gets out of bounds and checks on industry when it gets out of bounds putting all your hopes on the benevolence of the market is to me just like putting all your hopes on the benevolence of government julie disclaimer all opinions here belong to my cat and no one else
talk.politics.misc	re ca s pedophilia laws cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes k hobbes kzoo edu jamie r mccarthy writes having completely dived into the abyss of believing that there are no queers in the world who think differently from the child molestation advocating minority on soc motss he doesn t even notice that he s starting a sentence with they believe when the referent of that they is millions of people so few as to be irrelevant if you don t want to be lumped together as a group stop insisting on being treated as a member of a group please point out where i have said i even was a member of that group much less asked to be treated as such much less insisted upon it sexual orientation is not defined by the anti discrimination law that was passed last year pedophilia isn t a sexual orientation wait a minute you ve been claiming for quite a while now that pedophilia according to ca state law is a sexual orientation now your position is that the law doesn t specifically exclude it you know damn well what s going to happen some guy in a nambla t shirt s going to apply at a day care they re going to turn him down he s going to take it to court and the court s going to rule that sexual orientation is defined as homosexuality heterosexuality or bisexuality unless and until that court decides that pedophilia is a sexual orientation you have no business saying so silence death pin or something they turn me down because of that i wholeheartedly support their right to take this action i wouldn t do it myself unless it was something like the nambla t shirt despite the fact that all homosexuals are lying bastards how about a black man applies for a job at a bank the bank decides based on statistics a black person would be more likely to steal money and denies the man the job would you support the bank s right to this freedom i support their right to do so deletia but deletia ah so for example you are opposed to the civil rights act of here s the law that was passed and signed by the governor the people of the state of california do enact as follows section the purpose of this act is to codify existing case law as determined in gay law students v pacific telephone and telegraph cal d and soroka v dayton hudson corp cal app d prohibiting discrimination based on sexual orientation sec section is added to the labor code to read a sections and prohibit discrimination or disparate treatment in any of the terms and conditions of employment based on actual or perceived sexual orientation b this section shall not apply to a religious association or corporation not organized for private profit whether incorporated as a religious or public benefit corporation there s no for purposes of this act the term sexual orientation will be defined as section no definitions anywhere did they run this through the state congress on an accelerated schedule or something jamie mccarthy internet k kzoo edu applelink j mccarthy
talk.politics.misc	re top ten comments overheard in the secret service lounge in article ez j b w w unkaphaed jpunix com popec unkaphaed jpunix com william c barwell writes croaker highlite uucp francis a ney writes besides which we don t want clinton assasinated because that would make h a martyr a la jfk it s a much better deal to have him end his term of office in disgrace after watching all his liberal democrat friends on his staff run this nation down t toilet assuming of course that the riots a fortnight from now don t do it for him he d have to go a far ways to run things down as bad as reagan and bush did we didn t have riots but bush got dumped out on his spotty behind we ll see in years pope charles slack in our time s you need to stop watching tv and start reading some history jason c austin j c austin larc nasa gov
talk.politics.misc	re who be conservative on this in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu mcochran nyx cs du edu mark a cochran writes kevin rotag mi org kevin darcy writes in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu mcochran nyx cs du edu mark a cochran writes the sc allows restrictions after viability a term never medically defined any physician who can t make a reasonable stab at determining whether a given fetus is viable or not is not qualified to perform an abortion kebbin shows that he does not know the difference between determining the viability of an individual fetus and providing the universally accepted medical definition s of viability i was not discussing universal definitions in this post mark please refrain from dragging in irrelevancies do you agree with my statement above about physicians being unqualified if they can t determine viability since we know that there are some physicians out there who are qualified to perform abortions then obviously some medical definition of viability is being employed on an case by case basis viability is relatively easy to determine and that s good enough for the law mark so why do you keep whining that viability isn t defined what purpose does your whining serve kevin
talk.politics.misc	re cbs ny times poll on health care alternatives in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes thought others on the net might be interested in a selection of findings from the new york times cbs news poll on national health care i ll leave it to doug fierro to enter the entire article if he chooses what follows is a selection of the findings paraphrased without permission any errors are mine not the times the ny times doesn t make mistakes poll results deleted the economic and political ignorance of most americans can be truly scary price controls and government intervention the surest route to disaster it s amazing people never seem to learn from history or common sense price controls do not and cannot work i would have thought our last experiment in the s would have been enough to dampen the belief that price controls can actually work as for government intervention people never seem to get the irony of what the are saying we are told that entitlements are the biggest portion of the budget and they must be controlled we are presented with horror stories of waste and fraud in almost all government agencies we are shown stories about the miserable treatment our veterans get in our government run hospitals we are just now seeing stories about how social security isn t going to cut it in the future as if that should come as any surprise and yet people choose to ignore all of that and believe in the fairy tale of the government coming to the rescue simply amazing james w howe internet jwh citi umich edu university of michigan uucp uunet mailrus citi umich edu jwh ann arbor mi
talk.politics.misc	re top ten responses to ed s top ten lists roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes the real question should the feds bail out steve jobs next a la chrysler so that important manufacturing jobs wouldn t be lost a la chrysler okay kids to the nearest thousand how many dollars did the government spend to bail out chrysler more than zero you say bzzzzzzzzzt wrong answer don wiggins german irish american success is getting what you want lead scout for the baby boomers happiness is wanting what you get internet wiggins osiris cso uiuc edu brother dave gardner
talk.politics.misc	re urgent ted frank wanted for killing aj teel if the heading is true mr frank should be ashamed of himself nothing makes me gag more than people who don t respect the rights of others to voice their opinions my idol lenny bruce once commented about that asshole time magazine when they advocated censorship of his material time actually sided with the cops and their arresting of bruce at his shows whereby he routinely would say cocksucker then the cops would rush the stage to arrest him my how the times haven t changed i can t help but think of how lenny would be received in today s politically correct arena heck i even support the right of neo nazis to speak their opinions and march down the streets and before mr frank or anyone else makes any wisecracks about anti semitism i m jewish a longtime member of aipac and the jnf and have contributed over apiece to these fine groups i m a regular contributor to every pro israel group i can find but i still support the right of people like arf to speak up and vomit his propaganda i want to know just who these people are i m basing all this on the assumption that mr frank did indeed write to some sysadmin requesting mr teel to be admonished if this is not the case i hereby retract these nasties directed toward him if not i stand against mr frank and his trashing of the first amendment philip stromer
talk.politics.misc	re supply side revenue in tekig pen tek com ssoar tekig pen tek com steven e soar writes in article c t j b newsserver technet sg ipser solomon technet sg ed ipser writes the result is that clinton now hopes to reduce the deficit to a level above where it was when reagan left office which considering the amount bush congress added to it would be a not inconsiderable achievement while we re on the subject i also believe that the supply side claim that reducing taxes raised revenue is also false because they typically factor in you need to hop over to talk politics misc wee have been chewing on this gem for awhile the challenge has been made to name a single supply sider who ever said this for the last three weeks the challenge has gone unmet i issue the same challenge to you mob rule isn t any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government it ain t charity if you are using someone else s money wilson s theory of relativity if you go back far enough we re all related mark wilson atlantaga ncr com
talk.politics.misc	re i thought commercial advertising was not allowed in c sjg eu voder nsc com matt galaxy nsc com matt freivald x writes in article in talk politics misc bob cos com bob blackshaw writes and ms regard please don t give us the trite you can t legislate morality nonsense again there is little else that is legislated including the moral concept of rights really pure socialism had this belief and fell flat on its ass by attempting to follow such reasoning suppose you pass a law that states that i must love my neighbour regardless of race religion etc how exactly do you plan to enforce such a law better yet how do you plan to measure compliance and even if you overcome those two obstacles how will you ever know if i have become more moral or not you either missed the point or are being somewhat disingenuous i have never heard anyone suggest that you can legislate what people think laws are based on either expediency i e traffic laws or morality i e human rights as far as i can tell and the majority are based on the latter once more around the racetrack see the original statement that it is nonsense to believe that you cannot legislate morality i simply stated that they can pass all the laws they want but not a single one of them will make you or i more moral people they may make us act in a moral manner but our actions are only a reflection of the unwillingness to risk punishment they say nothing about whether we have become more moral or not perhaps the distinction is too fine matt freivald tog i m not a feminist i m for equal rights if you don t believe in abortion don t have one if you don t believe in slavery don t own one if you don t believe in murder don t commit one pro child pro family pro life these are my opinions only and not those of my employer
talk.politics.misc	re supply side economic policy was re david stockman in article c t j b newsserver technet sg ipser solomon technet sg ed ipser writes details that you are seeking is that the grahm rudman budget controls were working in fact they were working so well that unless the feds did something they were going to have to start cutting pork so bush and the democrats got together in a budget summit and replaced grahm rudman with the now historic grand compromise in which bush yea it turned out that gramm rudman was a sham to fool the voters into accepting the borrow and spend policies of the last years as it turned out the taxes killed the reagan expansion and the caps anyone can expand the economy by chargeing trillion on their credit cards big deal deficit spending only expands the economy in the short term in the long term it shrinks the economy for numerous reasons i would have much preferred that the taxpayers had that trillion instead the result is that clinton now hopes to reduce the deficit to a level above where it was when reagan left office chew on that awhile if reagan had kept his campaign promise to balance the budget by there would have been no need for bush or clinton to raise taxes and all reagan had to do was balance that puny carter deficit chew on that awhile tom kimball openconnect systems lbj freeway suite tk oc com dallas tx
talk.politics.misc	re temper tantrums from the s in article philc d f g j netcom com phil netcom com phil ronzone writes in article apr cbnewsi cb att com gadfly cbnewsi cb att com gadfly writes now let me get this straight after a nice long rant about how people need to take personal responsibility for their economic and social lives all of a sudden s radicals such as me i guess are responsible for poor people s lifestyles tell me how that works or do you think that poor people are just too dumb to think for themselves there are many reasons for the disintegration of the family and support systems in general among this nation s poor somehow i don t think murphy brown or janis joplin is at the top of any sane person s list you want to go after my generation s vaunted cultural revolution for a lasting change for the worse try so called relevant or values education hey it seemed like a good idea at the time how were we to know you needed a real education first i mean we took that for granted the s generation were the most spoiled and irresponsible the depression had create mothers and fathers that were determined that their kids would not want for anything going overboard and creating a nation of brats consider the contrast between two famous events in july of apollo and woodstock which group had large numbers of people that could not feed themselves and reverted to the cultural level of primitives defecation in public etc and which group assembled took care of itself and dispersed with no damage no deaths no large numbers of drug problems wasn t woodstock also called the biggest parking lot in history they rejected society and went back to nature in their parent s cars jason c austin j c austin larc nasa gov
talk.politics.misc	re tieing abortion to health reform is clinton nuts in apr ringer cs utsa edu sbooth lonestar utsa edu simon e booth writes in article apr wdl loral com bard cutter ssd loral com writes sbooth lonestar utsa edu simon e booth writes sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes we already kill people death penalty and that costs even more money so you could as well complain about this extremely barbaric way of justice but the death penalty is right and how expensive can an execution be i mean i think rope cyanide for the gas or the rifles and ammunition to arm firing squads are affordable now perhaps lethal injection might be expensive in that case let s return to the more efficient methods employed in the past oh sure the death penalty is fairly inexpensive but the trial and sentencing can run millions strychnine unless you wanna cut costs by skipping the trial and sentencing you murderous little rat bastard why as a matter of fact i was thinking of that as a way to make the system more efficient and the only murderous rat bastards are aboritionists yeah simon s no rat bastard he s the head attack puppy simon tog
talk.politics.misc	re tieing abortion to health reform is clinton nuts in apr ringer cs utsa edu sbooth lonestar utsa edu simon e booth writes in article bob cos bob cos com bob blackshaw writes in apr wdl loral com bard cutter ssd loral com j h woodyatt writes sbooth lonestar utsa edu simon e booth writes sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes we already kill people death penalty and that costs even more money so you could as well complain about this extremely barbaric way of justice but the death penalty is right and how expensive can an execution be i mean i think rope cyanide for the gas or the rifles and ammunition to arm firing squads are affordable now perhaps lethal injection might be expensive in that case let s return to the more efficient methods employed in the past oh sure the death penalty is fairly inexpensive but the trial and sentencing can run millions that s assuming our attack puppy is willing to grant people trials in his new order and why the hell would i waste my time doing that to a convicted criminal getting a death sentence go directly to hell do not pass go do not collect judge laughing hey puppy you are getting further around the bend every day but i wouldn t miss your adolescent ravings for the world everyone needs a good laugh now and then simon tog
talk.politics.misc	re how many homosexuals are there in article apr news acns nwu edu dmeier casbah acns nwu edu douglas meier writes in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes in article apr news acns nwu edu dmeier casbah acns nwu edu douglas meier writes if someone beats up a homosexual he should get charged for assault and battery why must we add gay bashing to the list isn t this a sort of double jeopardy or am i just being a fascist again to deter an epidemic of gay bashing that has not been deterred by assault laws so we ought to make beating up a homosexual more illegal than beating up a straight silly me thinking that the issue was that we are all people to be treated equally thanks for straightening me out wrong if a bunch of faggots from the tenderloin decide to go straight bashing and they selectively target a heterosexual man and beat the bloody fuck out of him they would get charged as well under all the federal laws that exist about violation of civils rights the focus of their intent is his sexual orientation and so the law applies to them as well the national government retains the right to make any laws necessary to sufficiently deter and punish any crime against someone s civil rights until that behavior becomes so well punished that nobody even tries it the fact is that at last count gays were not beating straights for their sexual orientation thus the law is getting applied only to the straights who indulge themselves the federal government or judiciary has the right to enforce the th amendment guarantee of equal protection under law even if it takes possible charges against people who would violate them go read your constitutional law we broke the back of the kkk s harrassment campaign with the same strategy in the early s so many went to jail and for so long that it cut the heart out of the kkk rsw no it is not double jeopardy a single act may lead to multiple charges and multiple crimes i think what you meant to say here was with the current mutation of the us constitution under the current police state someone may be charged multiple times for one act if the victim in question is of the right shade a single act should never merit more than on charge that s almost like if four cops got acquitted from cruel and unusual punishment charges and the country went and tried them again and again until they oh never mind this mutation as you call it protects your little butt too if you happen to be somewhere where you re the wrong shade for somebody else s taste if it can be shown that the motive for the assault on you was racially motivated then the full power of these extra laws that bring more charges and punishments will come against those who harmed you the first use of such laws was well over a hundred years ago and constitutional scholars of all conviction recognize that this right reserved to the federal government is well established and not just some short lived peculiarity too go read some constitutional law for awhile maybe you ll get it rsw douglas c meier dmeier casbah acns nwu edu richard steven walz rstevew deeptht armory com maple street without safe and free abortion women are santa cruz ca organ surrogates to unwanted parasites real men would never accept organ slavery and will protect women
talk.politics.misc	re how many homosexuals are there in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu mbond nyx cs du edu mimi writes in article apr news acns nwu edu dmeier casbah acns n u edu douglas meier writes in article pkmo inng senator bedfellow mit edu wdstarr athena mit ed william december starr writes and what difference does it make if homosexuals should not be treated as equals with heterosexuals in the eyes of the law then it doesn t matter if they comprise an overwhelming majority of the population and if they should then it doesn t matter if numerically they re only an infinitesimal minority right and if it makes no difference then shoving a false number down my throa shouldn t be a high priority after all why should a minority group ne d to inflate their numbers in order to justify the rights they claim they des rve i e extra privileges they ask for if someone beats up a homosexual he should get charged for assault and battery why must we add gay bashing to the list isn t this a sort of double jeopardy or am i just being a fascist again douglas c meier this space for rent northwestern university acns this university is too commie lib pinko to have these views dmeier casbah acns nwu edu you know i have thought about the issue of if someone beats up a homosexual or a black person etc should the crime be specified as something special shit beating up anybody regardless of race and sexual orientation should be a very serious crime if you pick out those crimes which are committed against the opposite sex different race or a different sexual orientation is this a form of favoring those groups over other groups hmm i mean i think that a crime committed against all people should be treated the same but i know that there are many people out there who are very prejudice against people who are different than they are and perhaps hate crimes laws are the only way to punish the bastards appropriately but why should a person who commits a crime against a wealthy protestant white by a wealthy protestant white be treated on a lower level isn t this discrimination against the wealthy white person hmm any input out there as a black person i here about all sorts of stories where fellow blacks are persecuted and beat up because of their race this really tears me up but a crime against a white by a white should also be treated as a heinous crime please respond i would like to hear what other views are out ther ciao mimi the federal government has used such laws to allow mutliple charges in order to prevent more crimes than would nromally occur just from two people being pissed off at each other the federal government has an interest in the intent of the perpetrators in the pursuit of preventing violations of civil rights it s the way they broke the back of the klan by putting a lot of people away for a very long time for harrassing blacks specifically it is a principle that has been well recognized as constitutionally valid since over years ago it has been used whenever a select group was getting bashed or harrassed more than any other person would just for being part of a minority it is the only way we made the defeat of the south stick after the civil war people who harrassed free blacks when normally they wouldn t find themselves harrassing just anyone walking around were expeditiously tried and jailed for to years until nobody wanted to try it anymore now with the th amendment guarantee of equal protection under the law the law can use multiple crime and severe penalty involving intent as much as is needed to protect even one human that is a hated minority to somebody they can call out the national guard just for them as they did the school girls in alabama during desegregation in the s and the president can nationalize the state militia and turn the guns of the militia that were being used to bar blacks right around to point at the thousands in the crowd with an order to shoot that they would have to obey or face possible death by firing squad under the uniform code of military justice for failing to obey a direct order while under arms and by god they did those southern boys turned right around an fixed bayonets and the governor was left standing and was arrested by the federal marshalls that had brought the order to nationalize the guard and that s why we need such an ability in federal jurisdiction rsw richard steven walz rstevew deeptht armory com maple street without safe and free abortion women are santa cruz ca organ surrogates to unwanted parasites real men would never accept organ slavery and will protect women
talk.politics.misc	re new environmental group launches teddy o neill creature with furry hobbit feet from bath uk a sentimental fool posts with the force of a world wide youth movement it ought to be possible to establish a coordinated global program to accomplish the strategic goal of completely eliminating the internal combustion engine over say a twenty year period evidently there are no open questions either scientific or about how people prefer to live john mccarthy computer science department stanford ca he who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense
talk.politics.misc	re prolifer or terrorist threat in apr jetsun weitek com nadja weitek com nadja adolf writes in article c za h ihd wetware com drieux wetware com writes in article pamhpinn d geraldo cc utexas edu taite ccwf cc utexas edu writes i m prepared to instruct individuals in the proper use and handling of firearms as a desert storm vet with six years in the national guard i have a great deal of experience in handling weapons and tactical training ps anyone up for a discussion of counter sniper operations security drills your friend the counter terrorist operation if twit promises to train them in tactics and weapons handlings i doubt any of them will last long enough to become terrorists look for a sudden rise in firearms accidents among the fiends of the fetus though bless you nadja we needed a name for these attack puppies friends of the fetus or foof for short
talk.politics.misc	re i thought commercial advertising was not allowed debate deleted i guess it is allowed
talk.politics.misc	clinton president s remarks at town hall meeting the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april remarks by the president secretary of education richard riley and secretary of labor robert reich in goals satellite town hall meeting chamber of commerce building washington d c p m edt secretary riley good evening and welcome to all of you in the thousands of communities around the country that are taking part in this satellite town meeting for the month of april you know today is april th in thomas jefferson was born years ago i think that s appropriate to mention at the beginning of this meeting because since that time he has been of course a person who has been one that we ve all followed in terms of our democracy and the importance of education here in this great country the success of our democracy according to jefferson really depends upon the success of our educational system his philosophy of government his belief in the importance of education is also very meaningful to our special guest here this evening tonight we re so pleased to have with us president clinton he s come over from the white house to join us in the chamber of commerce studios mr president it s good to have you we thank you for taking the time to visit with these communities here on the satellite network and we welcome you here this evening also we have with us secretary of labor robert reich and bob it s certainly pleasant to have you with us this evening also i have some questions for our two guests and i m sure many of you do too so please call us if there s something that you d like to ask the number is or in washington d c the number is or i believe the president has a few words that he might want to share with us and mr president i ll ask you to do that at this time it s great to have you the president thank you very much mr secretary i m glad to be here with my friends dick riley and bob reich also members of my cabinet at the headquarters of the chamber of commerce to support the effort that the chamber is making along with its center for work force preparation to help to examine tonight the whole critical question of how to move our young people from school to the work place i want to compliment the chamber on all their efforts recognizing that without an educated work force we can t grow this economy or remain competitive and recognizing that we all have to work together business and government labor and educators to make things happen this satellite town meeting is a good example of that kind of working together and if you ll forgive me a little home state pride i want to say a special word of thanks to the wal mart corporation headquartered in bentonville arkansas for providing several hundred of the sites for this town meeting tonight i appreciate that a lot as well as the sites that are provided for all the rest of you i have tried as hard as i could to move toward constructive change for this country secretary riley talked about this being thomas jefferson s th birthday if thomas jefferson believed in anything he believed in these three things first in education second in real personal liberty freedom of religion freedom of speech freedom of association freedom of the press and third in the absolute imperative of changing as times change if you go to the jefferson memorial here in this beautiful city which is now bedecked with all of its wonderful cherry blossoms you will see jefferson saying that we have to change with changing times for us here in america that means reducing our deficit and increasing our investment and putting our people first so that we can compete in the world we re here to talk about that tonight about what we can do to educate and train our people better unless we do that none of the efforts that all the rest of us make in government even to bring the budget into balance even to increase our investment in other things which will grow jobs will last in the long run we also have to have people who can carry their load and in a world where the average young person will change jobs seven or eight times in a lifetime that begins with the education system and continues into the work force where education must go on for a lifetime it s not just important what you know but what you can learn and if i might i d like to close just by emphasizing we re doing our best to try to have the most innovative partnership between the labor department and the education department and the private sector to build a good school to work transition and we re trying to get off to a good start this summer with a program that would create more than new summer jobs including many thousands that have a strong education component so our young people can be learning and working at the same time dick i think i ought to stop there that s a good place we can begin i think the discussion secretary riley thank you so much mr president each month we get together and talk about ways that all citizens can work towards reaching the national education goals and tonight we ll focus on goal five and how communities such as yours can prepare students for this world of work this week the education department and the labor department are hosting a conference here in washington d c called summer challenge a program of work and learning to america s youth the aim is to use some special funds from president clinton s proposed economic stimulus package to provide educationally enriched jobs and summer school programs for young people in disadvantaged areas of the country mr president let s talk a minute you alluded to it somewhat about the summer youth challenge your program calls for more educational enrichment in the summer jobs and why in your words is that so important the president i think it s important for two reasons first of all a lot of the young people we re trying to reach may have had trouble adjusting to school and learning and while we want them to have a good experience with a real job we also want them to continue to learn during the summer because we know from a lot of research that a lot of kids that have trouble learning in school may forget as much as percent of what they learned the previous year over the summertime and that is a very unproductive thing for schools to have to take up a lot of time teaching what they already taught before secondly we want to help these young people progress not only in terms of work but in terms of learning we want to abolish the artificial dividing line between what is work and what is learning because we think that the best and most productive workers will have to be lifetime learners and we think that this experience could maybe drive that point home and prepare these young people to succeed in school or at work or in college as they go on secretary riley well i think the fact that these are disadvantaged kids that gap that lag you mentioned as they go into the next year is really even greater secretary reich of course you have training programs throughout the year and i wonder is you have any comment about this educational component of training secretary reich well what we ve learned mr secretary is that for many young people whether it s for the summer or for the year actually on the job work experience combined with education is one of the best ways of learning many young people for example have a lot they have a difficult time learning geometry but when they actually are there building something or working on something and they can see the exact and direct application of geometry they understand what it s used for and a lot of young people just that sense of connection between education and the world of work is terribly terribly important it s important during the summer but it s important for a lot of young people even beyond the summer secretary riley thank you mr president you ve called for a youth apprenticeship program school to work transition and i wonder if you would tell us a little bit about your concept of that and how you see it developing the president well first of all let s talk about why it s important most new jobs that will be created in this decade will not require a four year college degree but most of them will require some learning and skills that go well beyond what most people get in a high school diploma if you look at the last years the average salaries of young people that had at least two years of good post high school education was a good salary that went up over the decade the young people who had less than that tended to have lower wages that did not go up and in many cases in real terms fell over the decade because they weren t productive they weren t more valuable to their employers so we think america has a big economic interest in trying to ensure that all the young people who get out of high school but don t go on to college make a transition to work which includes two years of further training either in a community college a vocational setting or perhaps on the job and what i have done in this budget as you know is to give you and secretary reich some funds and some incentives to try to work in partnership with states and with the private sector to build these programs state by state in a way that would be customized essentially by the business community based on the needs of the economy in any given area it could revolutionize long term the quality of the american work force and the earnings of american workers secretary reich i should add mr president i think you know this from your experience in arkansas and many of the people watching this program that the business community and educators labor groups are already in many of our communities many of our states building a school to work transition program in fact there s an awful lot of ferment a lot of excitement the people watching this program probably are the ones who are most directly involved in that and more power to them secretary riley and i are going to do everything we can to build on the successes already out there secretary riley bob we re going to be talking tonight about youth apprenticeship and tech prep the co op learning career academies and what features all those programs that deal with this subject what are some of the features that every one of these school to work programs might have that are important secretary reich well one thing that we ve seen and you and i have been working at this for a long time and you much longer than i we ve seen that active involvement of the business community is absolutely essential and i m so delighted that we re doing this in the headquarters of the chamber of commerce the chamber of commerce of the united states is committed to doing these kinds of programs training education retraining and we ve aimed to work very closely with the chamber the business community is going to be actively engaged in developing almost an audit of the kind of jobs that are needed and helping the educators community colleges technical institutions develop curricula that are relevant for the jobs of the future communities have got to come together i mean this is one of the most important things you ve got to have all of these players in a community come together and work together and cooperate together you know too often we have the educators over here and the business leaders over here labor groups over here and everybody is talking but they re not really working together in a common strategy and the third and final ingredient i would say dick would be a commitment to excellence a commitment both to academic excellence and also to skills development excellence this is not a tracking program we re talking about for kids who are not going to make it this is a program that every young person ought to be eligible for if they want to go on beyond that to four year college that s fine that ought to be permissible but we re talking about the foundation of learning about jobs the foundation skills for on the job learning and again those are the critical components it s already being done the president i think if i might just interject one point based on my personal experience at home the business community has a critical role to play not simply in saying here are the job skills that are needed and here s what ought to be taught but also in monitoring that excellence if you have the right sort of partnership there the people who are paying the taxes and who are going to then be hiring the workers are not going to permit the second rate programs to survive if they have any way to shape and influence them so i think that s very important and when we try to if you will fill in the blanks at the federal level trying to set some standards and provide some funds one of the things that we want to be sure and do is to make sure that the employer has a heavy amount of influence over the quality of these programs because that s really what s going to determine whether the whole thing is worthwhile secretary riley that s great we ve been talking of course about school to work and also the jobs and economic recovery program for this summer and fall but let s talk just a moment about long term school reform it s something especially close to me mr president i wonder if you would give us some of your ideas for the communities out here on goals legislation that i think will be coming forth before too long the president well as you know back when you and i were both governors we spent a lot of time working on our public schools and we tried to be very candid with our people in saying that a lot of these things were going to take some time to materialize i had a hand in writing the national education goals that the governors drafted along with representatives of president bush s administration back in and what we re going to try to do this year with your leadership is to introduce legislation in congress that will actually define the things that the national government ought to do to try to help the local schools and the children of this country and the adult learners too meet those goals making sure that when by people show up for school ready to learn that we get a percent on time high school graduation rate that children at the th th and th grades are confident in the subjects they re supposed to know that they are second to none in math and science that are schools are safe disciplined and drug free and of course the fifth goal i took them out of line to say this the last is that we have a system of life long learning in this country and each one of those goals there s a national role a state role a school role school district role and a private sector role and what you ve attempted to do in this bill you re going to introduce with me in the next few weeks is to define what our job is and then to give the rest of america a way of defining what their job is and seeing whether we re actually meeting the standards of quality that we need to meet it s very exciting so far as i know nothing quite like it has ever been done in the form of federal legislation before not mandating and telling people what they have to do with their money but actually setting up a framework for excellence and partnerships so that we can do our job i m really excited about it secretary riley well i am too and i think really it will be an entirely new role for the federal government in terms of its relationship with states serving as a partner really to support and facilitate and to help out in these education reform efforts all driven by high standards that s the point bob let me ask you one question and then we ll get to the telephone calls it s about the same subject we have of course skills standards that are going to be part of goals and i wonder if you would comment on that secretary reich well you know we have percent of our young people who don t graduate from college very often they don t have very many alternatives they do have a wonderful system of community colleges and technical institutions but if we had national skill standards to which they could aspire and which employers would understand as a national credential many of these young people would actually find that they were much more eligible for jobs everybody doesn t have to go to college other countries you have smaller proportions of their population going to college but you have a whole level of people who have certain technical preprofessional skills we can do it in this country if you don t go to four year college you re not a loser and we want to develop those national skill standards we re going to be working with the states with the education department with a lot of private industry in developing those standards and i think they will be the kinds of things that enable our vocational and technical and other institutions to rally around as well as our business community secretary riley well that s great why don t we go ahead and go to the telephone we have a call i see mayor bruce todd of austin texas q yes mr president and mr secretary reich and riley we certainly appreciate the opportunity to join you today we have some dedicated professionals and volunteers here in austin who have heard what you have said and are very appreciative let me simply say amen to some of the comments made already we agree with much of the tone that the clinton administration has taken and are very supportive we have been successful here in austin of tripling our summer employment program over the last four years we expect to have over employed this year in the summertime perhaps as much as with the federal assistance much of the question that we had designed you have answered in your opening comments so we must be thinking alike but the question essentially involved what initiatives after labor day would be appropriate we know summertime is important year round is even more important and what kind of initiatives at the federal level might be proposed to meet the needs of the youth on a year round basis and perhaps more importantly how can families and the local community be more involved using the federal initiative that s something that we believe is very important to success in this effort secretary riley mr president the president i think i ll give everybody a chance to answer the question bruce but let me first thank you for calling and thank you for all the great work that you re doing in austin i ve seen some of it and i ve always been very impressed first with regard to the summer program we hope we can structure it in a way that will enable us to continue the summer program and that will move a lot of these young people back into schools under circumstances that might allow them to do some work in the private sector too we hope that secretary reich is going to try to set up a system where we create a lot of private sector jobs to be matched with the public sector jobs this summer and we re working on that secondly in the program that i have presented to the congress over the next five years what we are attempting to do is to build in an amount of investment that s quite substantial for job training programs for school to work programs all of which give heavy heavy weight to local community input just the question you asked but do provide some federal investment dollars which we hope you can put with local dollars to keep people working and being trained on a year round basis and i will say again to echo what secretary reich said a moment ago to try to break down the barrier between what is seen as work and what is seen as learning an awful lot of young people actually have quite high iqs but actually learn so much better when they re doing than when they re reading or just listening so we hope that the community involvement part of it will be permanent and we hope that if the whole budget passes and we do have budget cuts and more than actually in the budget and some revenue raisers and some new money for education and training that we ll be able to do just what you seem to want based on your question bob do you want to say anything secretary reich well you took most of the words out of my mouth mr president as usual but let me just add one thing and that is that one of the most important aspects of post high school for a lot of young people who are not going on to college in addition to the school to work program simply is the availability of jobs and we ve got to get this economy moving again obviously it s terribly important to get this recovery program to get the economy back on track that s sort of the prerequisite to everything else if we don t get the economy back on track we have i think this is the th correct me if i m wrong mr president i think is the th month we have had seven percent unemployment or greater this is a jobless recovery a lot of those kids are going to be getting out of school in june and even if we did everything right they would have a very very hard time getting jobs secretary riley thank you both of course goals will be a permanent long term thing that will certainly reach into next year it will involve if passed and we certainly hope it will be action plans with every state where we can be working together to reach for the goals in a number of different ways and then the state with all the various school districts a very important part of that will be citizen and parent involvement and i think everybody will see a great energy out there once we get that moving the next call is dr harry heinemann new york doctor q good evening mr secretary it is a pleasure to be on with you this evening as you may know bridging the school and work has been central to la guardia s educational program since its inception in the s and that includes the college the two alternative high schools that operate on our campus and the linkages we have forged with the local schools we have found this to be an extremely effective learning strategy and over the years we ve come to believe that there are several principles that are very important in bridging the school and work and these include integrating theory in the classroom with practice in the workplace with providing all students early exposure to careers as well as providing opportunities for them to reflect upon these experiences while they strengthen their skills and lastly the critical role of the liberal arts particularly in the development of high performance competencies my question then is how can the general education faculty and the academic curriculum be more closely integrated with transition to work experience and what mechanisms and strategies can you suggest to achieve this integration secretary riley well thank you very much i think and we ll get a response from you all on that and very interesting work going on there we re going to have three people our next guests on the program this evening that will be some specialists in that area that you re speaking and i ll certainly pass that on to them and we can discuss it later you all care to comment any comments you might have the president i d just like to say if i might one thing i want to reemphasize this and i don t think i m being as clear about it as i d like although i think at least one of the people who will be on the second panel will be able to say it more explicitly than i i think this whole concept of applied academics is very important and i think that we have to basically abolish what i consider to be a very artificial distinction between what is vocational learning and what is academic learning i think we should keep the liberal arts going i think we should have a strong component for people who are in the vocational program secretary reich it seems to me that we also need to rethink our entire tracking system because a lot of these school and work combinations are important for mainstream students they re important for all students it s not just a special group of students that needs them some of the experiments that i ve seen around the united states dick i m sure you ve seen them as well are mainstream experiments they re mainstreaming all the students at th and th grades they re giving them a combined work and school experience and then a transition program and again the kids can either go on to college if they want they can go on to technical community they can go on to an entirely a large variety of possibilities and career directions but we have to get away from the stigmatizing that often goes on with young people who simply are doing job related or work related work within the classroom within our schools secretary riley thank you very much i think that s going to be the last call that we have time for mr president i think you ve got to move on to another matter and i want to thank you and secretary reich for being here we appreciate your time and your ideas and it s been a tremendous help to us end p m edt
talk.politics.misc	re clinton president s remarks at town hall meeting in a previous article clinton hq campaign org clinton gore says the president thank you very much mr secretary kind of working together and if you ll forgive me a little home state pride i want to say a special word of thanks to the wal mart corporation headquartered in bentonville arkansas for providing several hundred of the sites for this town meeting tonight i when did bill start doing endorsements will he do the remington shaver ad tune in next week
talk.politics.misc	re law and economics procedural note ted directed followups to misc legal only while i respect his right to do so my own opinions are that followup to fields are mere suggestions not mandatory commands and this issue is of sufficient a general political relevance and b civil liberties interest to warrant keeping it active in t p m and a s c l as well at least for this round in article apr midway uchicago edu thf midway uchicago edu said uh no that s not what happened in boomer what happened in boomer was that the judge didn t allow the plaintiffs to blackmail the cement plant by demanding a multi million dollar plant to be shut down over in damages and required the plant to pay the plaintiffs the to make them whole the plant would never have been shut down the plaintiff s lawyers would have just negotiated a windfall settlement because the plaintiffs would prefer an amount greater than k to having the plant shut down while the plant would prefer any amount less than the value of the plant to have the plant continue in operation everyone s property rights were protected the plaintiffs were made whole unnecessary settlement costs were avoided okay now here s my interpretation of boomer based on the facts as presented in the new york court of appeals holding boomer v note the new york court of appeals is the highest court in new york state while the united states and of the fifty states call their highest court supreme court supreme judicial court or supreme court of appeals maryland and new york call theirs simply the court of appeals to make matters worse new york also calls its second highest court the supreme court appellate division atlantic cement co n y d n e d oscar h boomer et al owned land near the atlantic cement company s plant near albany n y the fact pattern gives no information as to which came first the plaintiff s acquisition of the land or he defendant s start of production at their cement plant in the course of its regular operations the cement plant did injury to the plaintiffs property via dirt smoke and vibrations emanating from the plant the plaintiffs sought injunctive relief that is they asked the court to order atlantic cement to stop damaging their property commentary this seems entirely reasonable to me boomer at al owned their property and presumably a right to quiet enjoyment of it atlantic cement s actions were depriving boomer et al of that right instead of granting the plaintiffs request for an injunction the court ordered them to accept the damage being done to their property provided that atlantic cement paid them in compensatory damages in other words the court granted atlantic cement co a private party the power and authority to take the plaintiffs rights to quiet enjoyment of their property by eminent domain a taking by eminent domain is always problematical even when it s done by the state allowing a private firm to do it is in my opinion totally wrong yes i know the boomer court didn t call it eminent domain but if it walks like eminent domain and swims like eminent domain and quacks like eminent domain let me take issue with the way you ve presented the case you say that what happened in boomer was that the judge didn t allow the plaintiffs to blackmail the cement plant by demanding a multi million dollar plant to be shut down over in damages blackmail pulls out black s law dictionary abridged th edition blackmail unlawful demand of money or property under threat to do bodily harm to injure property to accuse of crime or to expose disgraceful defects this crime is commonly included under extortion statutes how do you define as blackmail one party s act of demanding the right to set its own sale price for a unique piece of property which it owns and which another party has expressed an interest in buying or of demanding the right not to sell that property at any price as i see it boomer et al having found themselves in the fortunate position of owning something which atlantic cement had to purchase if it wanted to stay in business had every right in the world to set whatever price they wanted there isn t or at least shouldn t be any law that says that you have to be a nice guy in your private business dealings you go on to say the plant would never have been shut down the plaintiff s lawyers would have just negotiated a windfall settlement because the plaintiffs would prefer an amount greater than k to having the plant shut down while the plant would prefer any amount less than the value of the plant to have the plant continue in operation if so so what since when are the courts supposed to be in the business of preventing parties from reaping windfall settlements from other parties when those settlements arise from wrongful acts by those other parties if atlantic cement didn t want to have to face a choice between paying a windfall settlement or going out of business well shouldn t atlantic cement have thought of that before going into business i note that as far as the facts show boomer et al were not the parties responsible for bringing about this situation that was atlantic cement s own fault for choosing to build and operate the type of plant they did where and when they did and then you say everyone s property rights were protected the plaintiffs were made whole unnecessary settlement costs were avoided as above i dispute your claim that the plaintiffs were made whole they were in fact by court action deprived of their rights as owners of property to choose to sell or not sell that property at a price acceptable to them and for that deprivation they were not made whole and again i ask since when are the courts supposed to be in the business of ensuring that unnecessary settlement costs are avoided if so i ve been miseducated i always thought that the courts were supposed to be in the business of ensuring that justice is done is boomer really being taught as infamous that s really sad if it is because i fail to see how it s less than completely sensible you should read the law and economics stuff first hand instead of filtered through teachers who clearly don t like it for whatever inexplicable reasons boomer is not being taught as infamous at least not at my school aside northeastern law usually does a very good job of hiring for their first year mandatory classes such as torts where i first encountered boomer instructors who regardless of their personal opinions can and do teach the law neutrally when the students get into their second and third years in which the students a can pick and choose which courses to take except for the mandatory professional responsibility of course and b are presumed to be a bit more worldly and self confident less likely to be consciously or sub consciously intimidated by law school professors and able to learn from openly biased instructors rather than be indoctrinated by them the instructors tend to be more open in expressing their own opinions this is especially true of part time instructors who in real life are practicing attorneys or sitting judges this can be very educational sometimes far more so than being taught by a somewhat cloistered scholar end of aside i called it infamous because that s my opinion of it for the reasons i ve stated above i believe it to be a triumph of something that i can only call economic correctness over justice it is completely sensible only if you believe that the alleged right of the owners of atlantic cement to stay in business and avoid losing a lot of their own money due to their own wrongful act and the alleged right of several hundred atlantic cement employees to not have their jobs disappear should trump the rights of people who own property which was damaged by atlantic cement s wrongful acts and if you believe that it is correct for the courts or any other branch of government to grant to private parties the right to take other people s property by eminent domain you d like posner bill he s a libertarian really i didn t know that what if anything has he had to say about cases like boomer of course he has too much of a paper trail to ever be nominated by a president democrat won t like his antitrust stance or republican won t like his support of gay marriage and if bright law students shiver at what they don t understand it s easy to imagine how the press will play it up as baby selling i ve seen mike godwin claim that posner asserts that law and economics is applicable to everything and is the end all and be all when posner says precisely the opposite so it goes i ve admitted that my understanding of the field generally referred to as law and economics is weak if it advocates the use of economical analysis as one of many tie breaker factors which courts may use to help them reach decisions in cases in which the dispute as measured by the scale of justice is evenly balanced fine but as illustrated by boomer it is not fine when the courts start viewing the economics of a case as being more important than the justice of a case william december starr wdstarr athena mit edu
talk.politics.misc	re clinton s immunization program in article c fjsl is ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com mark wilson writes on the news last night clinton was bashing the republicans for stonewalling his so called stimulus package it seems that one small item within this package was going to pay for free immunizations for poor kids so now clinton is claiming that the republicans are holding the health of poor kids hostage for blatantly political gains aside from the merits or lack thereof of another free immunization program just what is such a program doing in a bill that is supposedly about creating jobs jobs what the hell have jobs to do with it it s another touchy feely program from the new vapid administration the fact is the major claim made for universal immunization that all children will be immunized has absolutely no validity several states already have u i programs have had these programs for years the result on average their success rates are no better than the national average it seems that the gummint hasn t yet figured out a way to make parents bring their kids in yet another case of shameless demagoguery from the new democrats the agents of change if clinton is so hot to get this immunization program why doesn t he and the democrats just introduce it as a stand alone bill isn t it possible that clinton is the one doing the blatant political read pork manipulations here he is telling the republicans pass my muti billion dollar package or i will go to the people and tell them that you are opposed to immunizing poor kids what clinton using this issue for partisan gain do tell i have never thought highly of clinton but stunts like this lower my opinion of him even further i thought one of clinton s campaign themes was that he was going to be a new kind of politician this kind of manuevering would have made lbj proud all together now c mon you know the words meet the new boss same as the old boss and the chorus we won t get fooled again paul havemann internet paul hsh com they re not just opinions they re caffeine for the brain up to milligrams per cynical observation recommended minimum daily requirement mg keep reading
talk.politics.misc	recent news in the hopes of adding a little life to what seems to be the same old debates i would like to add a few bits of info and ask for comments a couple days ago the headlines were splashed with stories of proof that the north vietnamese had held u s hostages after the war ended way back in today s newspaper page a of san francisco chronicle there is an article about the document that held the proof used without permission the document which was discovered in the archives of the soviet communist party in moscow is a russian translation of what is described as a september report prepared for the vietnam politburo by general tran van quang who is identified as the deputy chief of staff of the north vietnamese army later on in the article after it talks about the claim of americans in north vietnamese prisons phong said the easiest way to prove that the document is a fabrication is to review quang s career in he said quang was not deputy chief of staff he was the army commander in military region in central vietnam i heard on the radio that the church of scientology has filed for bankrupcy becuase the employees of cocolat owned by cos filed a class action suit against them for requiring the employees to pay dues to become members of the church anyone heard more about this micheal jackson went into business with micheal milken no lie who said anything about panicking snapped authur garrett johnson this is still just culture shock you wait till i ve garrett ingres com settled into the situation and found my bearings then i ll start panicking douglas adams
talk.politics.misc	re employment was re why not concentrate on child molesters dov bai msi visitor bai msiadmin cit cornell edu wrote in article c fg t at exnet co uk sys exnet co uk xavier gallagher writes true man did not invent the need for food shelter warmth and the ilk but man did invent the property laws and the laws of trespass but how do you think property is generated does it grow automatically on trees when we wish so or someone has to produce it some say it was generated by god or goddess some say it was the result of the coalescence of billions of tons of interstellar debris in either case the property of which xavier speaks has been around for millions of years it all follows from the fact that mother nature does not provide us automatically with our needs oh when did she stop mother nature has been automatically providing us with her bounty ever since we crawled out of the primordial ooze it is not produced it produces itself year after year last night for example i saw four deer crossing the road pretty sight too in an earlier time one of them would have been dinner there are ways to go with produced things the first is to trade it with the the person s who produced it the other one is to take it with a gun from the person who produced it the first way is the civilized method the second is how savages arrange their affairs the american indians had no concept of ownership of property and often freely gave of their supplies to neighboring tribes trading food and clothing for weapons or services the native hawaiians like their polynesian ancestors also could not conceive of that idea and shared many things with the other islanders in fact hi ipoi the hawaiian word for cherish means sharing food the great mahele in which the islands were divided up more or less evenly between the rich and the poor was a white man s idea in africa villagers will often share tools crops and clothing with other members of their own village and neighboring villages every anthropologist who has ever been to africa has at least one tale of the difficulties arising from the so called theft of the scientists possessions two concepts of which until the visitors came along the natives had no understanding these are the people we call savages on the other hand car jackings and muggings are up from last year dov before you make further comment on this thread i think it would behoove you to study all of the facts garison
talk.politics.misc	re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in article c ij h l news iastate edu jrbeach iastate edu jeffry r beach writes in article apr gordian com mike gordian com michael a thomas writes in article c huh news iastate edu jrbeach iastate edu jeffry r beach writes think about it shouldn t all drugs then be legalized it would lower the cost and definitely make them safer to use yes i don t think we want to start using these criterion to determine legality why not where do they get these people i really don t want to waste time in here to do battle about the legalization of drugs if you really want to we can get into it and prove just how idiotic that idea is you asked a question and now you don t want people to answer i believe a legitimate question was asked why shouldn t cost and safety be used at least in part to determine legality i d like to see you prove that drug legalization is an idiotic idea seems to me the evidence from great britain is pretty convincing that drug legalization is a good idea even such a noted conservative as william f buckley supports it my point was that it is pretty stupid to justify legalizing something just because it will be safer and cheaper a few more ideas to hold to these criterion prostitution the killing of all funny farm patients aids victims elderly unemployed prisioners etc this would surely make my taxes decrease your examples except for prostitution fail miserably to meet both criteria safer and cheaper obviously killing people is not safe as for prostitution why shouldn t it be legal dale cook any town having more churches than bars has a serious social problem edward abbey the opinions are mine only i e they are not my employer s
talk.politics.misc	re lincoln slavery was re top ten tricks cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes judy technology com judy mcmillin writes cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes can you provide some evidence that the slave states regarded slaves as not humans they were outside our society and similar phrases that basically meant that they didn t have to recognized as having the same rights as a free person but they were never considered not human to my knowledge isn t the fact that slaves were purchased as opposed to hired enough evidence that they were not thought as humans didn t the bill of rights provide basic freedoms to humans that were not available to slaves not necessarily distinctions were made between citizens and persons throughout the u s and various state constitutions for example free blacks had some rights of citizens but not all the rights of citizens i m curious if there was an additional level of distinction made by the slave states to rationalize their treatment of slaves or if they just ignored the theoretical problems of slave ownership the bill of rights as far as i can see does not once refer to citizens but it makes several references to people for example article iv the right of the people to be secure in their persons houses papers and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated article v no person shall be held to answer for a capital or otherwise infamous crime unless on a presentment or indictment by a grand jury nor shall any person be deprived of life liberty or property without due process of law article viii excessive bail shall not be required nor excessive fines imposed nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted now i ve never heard that constitutional rights apply only to citizens aren t they meant to apply equally to all persons living in the u s whether slaves were considered not human i don t know but it seems that a case could be made that they weren t treated as people as defined in the bill of rights and since the nation is nominally based on the declaration of independence which states that all men are created equal that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights that among these are life liberty and the pursuit of happiness it would also seem that slaves would not follow under this definition of humanity eric smith erics netcom com erics infoserv com ci
talk.politics.misc	reserve officers say demographics ignored in nominations to close naval marine reserve centers here is a press release from the reserve officers association reserve officers say demographics ignored in nominations to close naval marine reserve centers to national desk defense writer contact herbert m hart of the reserve officers association of the united states washington april u s newswire the reserve officers association of the united states has alerted the defense base realignment and closure commission that the services failed to give sufficient weight to demographics in recommendations made to close naval and marine corps reserve centers in letters to the closure commission and to all members of congress with affected locations in their constituencies including sen sam nunn d ga chairman of the senate armed services committee roa charged that the developers of the navy marine list ignored demographics of the civilian population particularly prior service personnel roa s executive director maj gen evan l hultman aus ret suggested concern that the only plausible alternative is that they are intentionally attempting to foreclose the naval reserve components from maintaining even today s relatively low level of participation in their parent service s total force of the future he asked the commission to remove from consideration all locations without sufficient and convincing demographic data to warrant approval of the requested action only a few of the naval and marine corps reserve installations on this list are large enough to have a significant impact on the community if closed wrote hultman the major issue is the cumulative impact of moving or closing such a large percentage of the existing locations hultman reminded the commission the fact that the vast majority of the reserve installations on this list do not come close to meeting the minimal requirements for consideration in this process certainly supports the thesis that these actions are simply an attempt to foreclose a substantial role for the navy and marine corps reserve roa also noted that at the end of the s when the number of naval reservists was approximately the same as today there were naval reserve facilities if the navy recommendations are approved there will be less than naval reserve facilities facilities on the list include seven naval air stations ranging from south weymouth mass to alameda calif naval reserve centers in macon ga and parkersburg w va to missoula and great falls mont naval marine corps reserve centers include four in san francisco fort wayne ind billings mont and abilene texas a major marine reserve center on the list is that at el toro calif plus six others nigel allen toronto ontario canada ndallen r node hub org
talk.politics.misc	clinton president names officials at transp comm defen opic the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april president names officials at transportation commerce defense and opic washington dc president clinton announced his intention today to nominate albert herberger to be administrator of the federal maritime administration loretta dunn to be assistant secretary of commerce for import administration and christopher finn to be executive vice president of the overseas private investment corporation additionally he has approved the appointments of joan yim to be deputy administrator of the federal maritime administration alice maroni to be principal deputy comptroller of the department of defense and deborah castelman to be deputy assistant secretary of defense for command control and communications we are continuing to move forward with putting together a government of excellent diverse americans who share my commitment to changing the way that washington works said the president these six people i am naming today fit that bill biographical sketches of the nominees are attached biographical sketches of nominees april albert herberger a thirty five year navy veteran who retired with the rank of vice admiral is the vice president of the international planning and analysis center ipac among the positions he held during his naval service were deputy commander in chief of the u s transportation command director of logistics on staff for the atlantic fleet commander in chief and director of the military personnel policy division for the office of naval operations a surface warfare expert and a merchant marine officer with over eighteen years operational experience herberger is also vice chairman of the national defense transportation association s sealift committee he is a graduate of the u s merchant marine academy and the naval postgraduate school loretta dunn has served on the staff of the senate committee on commerce science and transportation since since she has been the committee s senior trade counsel responsible for drafting trade legislation and reports planning and conducting hearings managing legislation on the senate floor and in conferences with the house overseeing a variety of executive branch agencies including the department of commerce she was previously a staff counsel for the committee dunn holds a b a in history from the university of kentucky a j d from the university of kentucky college of law and an l m from the georgetown university law center christopher finn is the executive vice president of equities for the american stock exchange previous positions he has held have included senior vice president of the air and water technologies corporation chief of staff to senator daniel p moynihan deputy commissioner of the new york state department of economic development and chief legislative aide to congressman james r jones finn is a graduate of harvard college joan yim is a professional planner with over years experience in community based planning policy analysis project design and management inter agency coordination and government affairs from she was with the hawaii office of state planning as a planner on issues relating to natural resource and coastal zone management and public infrastructure financing among other issues currently she is supervising planner with the honolulu firm of parsons brinckerhogg quade douglas before going to work for the state she was executive neighborhood commission secretary for the city and county of honolulu and chair on the kaneohe community planning committee a democratic national committeewoman yim holds a b a from connecticut college and pursued graduate studies at the university of hawaii more april page two alice maroni is a professional staff member of the house armed services committee specializing in defense budget issues she previously worked as a national defense specialist in the foreign affairs and national defense division of the congressional research service and as an international risk analyst for rockwell international she has written extensively on defense budget related topics maroni received her b a from mount holyoke college and an m a from the fletcher school of law and diplomacy at tufts university she has also completed the senior service program at the national war college and harvard s program for senior executives in national and international security deborah castleman is currently on leave from rand where she is a space and defense policy analyst she was an advisor to the clinton gore campaign on space science and technology and national security issues prior to joining rand in castleman held engineering positions with the hughes space and communications group general dynamics and electrac inc she served as an avionics technician in the air force from castleman holds a b s in electrical and electronic engineering from california state polytechnic university m s in electrical engineering from the california institute of technology and m a in international studies from claremont graduate school
talk.politics.misc	re clinton president s remarks at town hall meeting in article qia inngta life ai mit edu clinton hq campaign org clinton gore writes secretary riley good evening and welcome to all of you in the thousands of communities around the country that are taking part in this satellite town meeting for the month of april you know today is april th in thomas jefferson was born years ago i think that s appropriate to mention at the beginning of this meeting because since that time he has been of course a person who has been one that we ve all followed in terms of our democracy and the importance of education here in this great country the success of our democracy according to jefferson really depends upon the success of our educational system i wonder if he realizes the irony of a federal secretary invoking a rabid anti federalist in support of federal education programs david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
talk.politics.misc	re a loathesome subject in article apr ads com henry ads com henry mensch writes carlos beowulf jpl nasa gov carlos carrion wrote just curious don t have to answer if you feel uncomfortable how many times have you had sex with boys why do you care if a total stranger asked you how often you had sex would you answer henry mensch booz allen hamilton inc henry ads com this is so typical of homosexuals constantly making excuses for child molesters clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re roe v wade in article lsm fjinnlnf exodus eng sun com chased rbbb eng sun com david chase writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes i remain pro choice but when pro choicers compare abortion in a clinic to a religious ritual in a church you have to start wondering a bit if the pro life criticism of abortion as modern human sacrifice doesn t have a grain of truth to it in article ls ruoinn b exodus eng sun com chased rbbb eng sun com david chase writes ah clayton so i see that you have found someone new to bash tell me how many pro choicers have compared abortion in a clinic to a religious ritual in a church i ll bet that you ve seen overwhelming support for this opinion in some newsgroup or another in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes no but i ve seen the comparison drawn by pro choicers in ca politics it is worrisome to me but not to you i ve been reading ca politics for a while now and i don t recall seeing such a comparison you don t read my postings very carefully i m not surprised it was pretty shocking and is part of why my sympathy though not agreement with the pro lifers is increasing a handful of lunatic opinions expressed in ca politics does not make me think that the opinion is widely held when did i say that it was clayton i wish i knew what made you tick your math sucks and you take single instances of fringe opinions and proclaim the existence of a pernicious trend there s about a quarter billion people living in this country some small number of them are almost guaranteed to hold opinions that you and i find positively repellent as long as the small number is truly a small number and as long as they re not my neighbor highly likely i m not worried about it when they hold high public office you should worry by the way when you cite experts remember that carl sagan and paul ehrlich sp are experts too if i ve never heard of your experts i ll consider the source you a man who is clearly unable to master elementary statistics and uses of statistical inference and ignore them david chase you mean i don t come to the conclusions that your emotional state requires clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re professors whining about pay in article qf kqinnrkd elroy jpl nasa gov fogarty sir c jpl nasa gov tim fogarty writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes in article q k binne k elroy jpl nasa gov fogarty sir c jpl nasa gov tim fogarty writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes professors get summers off industry employees don t what professor gets the summer off the primary purpose of a professor at a university is to publish teaching is secondary the summer is when professors are able to do the research required for their papers i m told by my advisor that only at some universities is publishing the primary emphasis many professors in the cal state university system don t publish at all those that prefer teaching are under no pressure to publish when discussing and issue it helps that all participants use the same definitions although this rarely occurs on usenet when i use the term university i think of an organization that has a bachelors masters and phd program i believe that cal state schools do not i call them colleges uc schools are universities at a univeristy the number one goal is to publish cal state university system offers bachlors and masters degrees the ph d is not offered because of opposition from uc at the cal state schools do the professors you speak of have phds at nearly all the professors have phds i haven t had a professor who didn t though my wife has had a couple of professors with just an m a a friend had an instructor who didn t have a degree at all but because he had been minister of culture for the black panthers he was teaching anyway he had a bad habit of usually not showing up to teach the class and finally quit in disgust at the racism of a university that expected him to show up to teach a university you have professors with phds and then teaching assistants tas tas were the slave labor graduate students who got their tuition paid and a few hundred a month for living expenses in exchange for doing all the grunt work the professors taught the lectures with to students per class then the tas taught the labs with to per class tim fogarty fogarty sir c jpl nasa gov at sonoma state university typical class size is to per class teaching is definitely more the goal and sometimes it actually happens the best professors at sonoma state u are equivalent to the best professors i had at ucla and usc clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	clinton president s remarks at summer jobs conference the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april remarks by the president at summer jobs conference hyatt regency crystal city virginia a m edt the president thank you very much the speech that octavius gave says more than anything i will be able to say today about why it s important to give all of our young people a chance to get a work experience and to continue to learn to merge the nature of learning and work why it s important to honor the efforts of people like jerry levin and nancye combs and pat irving and all of those who are here i want to thank the secretaries of labor and education and all the people who work with them for sponsoring this and my good friend governor wilder for being here and for speaking and all of the business and local community leaders from the city and county and state level from around america who are here this has been a pretty fun day laughter i loved hearing the young people sing it was music to my ears because it is their future that we are really struggling about applause a year and a half ago i began the quest to seek the presidency because i was concerned about their future because i believe that our country which had always been a beacon of hope for the young had too little opportunity was too divided among ourselves across lines of income and race and region and other ways without a vision to take us into the future i entered with the hope that together we could create more opportunity and insist on much more responsibility from all of our people but in the process we might recreate the best of america s community knowing that together we could always to more than we could individually and that we might secure our future all of you here today are committed to that the jobs that jerry levin has committed time warner to is symbolic of the commitments made by many of the private sector people who are here and those who are around the country the work that nancye combs does and the successes of all the young people like those on this stage and especially the eloquent statement octavius jeffers all those things show that together we know what we need to do and we re on the right track last july when i was traveling across america s heartland in my luxurious bus i visited seneca high school in louisville kentucky and there i met young people and business people who were participating in the louisville education and employment partnership i saw what nancye combs talked about today i saw how the young people were making an extra effort to succeed both in school and at work i saw as i have seen many times in my own state the principle illustrated that octavius has talked about that for millions of american young people it is really an impediment to both their learning and their ability to be good workers to draw a sharp dividing line between what is work and what is learning in the world in which we are living the average young person will change the nature of work seven or eight times in a lifetime we must learn to merge the work world and the learning world much better and we must determine that all of our young people see the opportunities that some of them have had showcased here today whether you re in business or in government or in education you know that we have a big job to do when it comes to building a future that really honestly includes opportunity for all of our people there are still a lot of people who say well things are pretty good here in washington and everything s fine the best thing we can do about this whole thing is nothing they all have jobs laughter all the people who say that applause they all have health insurance they all have a pretty good education and they all have a pretty secure knowledge that they ll be okay no matter what happens i say that not to be either political or unduly critical but to point out that one of the great challenges of this age for every advanced nation everyone is to fully develop the capacities of all of its people and then find work for them to do all the european countries have higher unemployment rates than we do but also stronger support systems for the unemployed the japanese unemployment rate has been going up they re going to adopt a stimulus that even if you count it in its most rigorous terms is three or four times bigger than the one that i have proposed to create jobs in west germany alone the unemployment rate is now about as high as ours this is a big problem for advanced nations it costs a lot of money to add an extra employee with a lot of pressure from low wage producers in other countries that are growing their own economies and trying to provide new opportunity for their people but it is especially important for america for two reasons one is we have a whole lot of folks who unless we move aggressively will not have the education and skills we need to be competitive and productive in a nation like this the second is even if we educate them all if there aren t jobs they will be robbed of the fruits of their educational labors people need to be able to work in this country applause we have always had some unemployment and indeed some of it is normal you ve always got some people leaving jobs and moving around the country and doing first one thing and another we have now at this moment in our history the necessity for all big organizations including the government to reexamine the way they are organized and who ask whether there are too many people working at some kinds of jobs but in the whole we must still be able to create jobs in a country like america to provide people with the chance to work it s going to be difficult for me to make the welfare reform proposals that i will make to congress in the next couple of months it s going to be hard for me to make those work if at the end of all this work to get off welfare there isn t a job applause so we have two tasks one is to develop the capacity of the american people to perform without regard to race or income or the circumstances of their birth the other is to make sure that there are some opportunities for them to bring to bear for their talent and to be rewarded with a paycheck it is a great challenge i do not pretend that all of the answers are simple but i know if you want to ask the american people all of them to be more responsible if you want to recreate a sense of community in this country that bridges the lines of race and income and region you have got to have opportunity in that mix a part of our vision for america has to be a future for every young person in this country who s willing to play by the rules and work hard and strive for the end of the rainbow there has to be something at the end of that rainbow and that is what we are basically here to talk about today what can we all do as partners recognizing none of us can do it alone to develop the capacities of our people to succeed wherever they live and whatever their background and then what can we do to make sure that there s something there for them to do the summer jobs program we re discussing today is an integral part of that plan because it will promote the values of work and opportunity and fairness community it will put the people first and it does have a partnership between the public and private sector i said when i addressed the united states congress in february on this program that i would seek to create about extra summer jobs from government sources and then challenge the american business community to meet that target so that we can create more than a million new summer jobs over and above what had been created before many many people have responded to that challenge and jerry is just a shining example of that which has been replicated in this room and around the country people who are going to do more than they otherwise would in the private sector to give young people a work experience and it is terribly important i want to emphasize that this summer jobs program is part of an overall commitment to increase the capacity of the american people from retraining defense workers who lose their jobs and other adults who need to acquire new skills to improving the transition from school to work for young people who don t go to college but do need at least two years of post high school training either on the job or in a community college or a vocational setting so that they can be competitive workers making it possible for more people to go on to college who do want to go all these things are part and parcel of a comprehensive plan it s also important as i said that we create more jobs the emergency jobs program that i asked the congress to adopt would create a half a million extra jobs over the next year and a half and that would reduce the unemployment rate by a half a percent it would also enable us to absorb more young people coming into the work force in jobs that otherwise will not be created it also will help a lot of cities and counties to invest in things that need to be done at the grass roots level projects long delayed water projects sewer projects park projects new industries and particularly in small and medium size communities a whole range of things that will improve the economy and improve the environment the summer jobs program is an important part of that because we have tried for the first time through the work of the labor department and the education department and through reaching out to people like you to make this more than just a one shot summer jobs program to integrate it with private sector efforts to hopefully replicate it in each coming summer to move these young people into further educational opportunities and to further job opportunities and to have a strong meaningful education component to these summer jobs something that the united states government has never fully emphasized before a lot of these young people as you well know because they come from difficult backgrounds because they go to school in difficult and challenging circumstances need extra help in building their basic skills in math and language reasoning and in other areas and a lot of educational studies show that young people who have difficulty in school often forget as much as percent of what they learn over the summer and then that has to be repeated the next year what we are trying to do here is to give people the opportunity to learn good work habits and to reinforce their learning skills and to put them together and then hopefully over the next couple of years if our entire program passes to give every school in this country the opportunity to have a good work and learning environment there will be more applied academics more opportunities for people to learn and work during the school year so that this will not simply be an isolated moment for these young folks but will be a part of building a whole new educational experience a whole new work experience and moving on a pathway to a better future the summer jobs programs are not designed to be make work jobs they re designed to make a future for the people holding the job and that s what they will do in the process they ll help to build local communities to strengthen local economies to solve local problems real jobs renovating housing repairing public buildings doing clerical work providing nursing assistance in hospitals supervising and training children at child care centers and learning all the way challenging young people to learn while they earn but letting them earn you know it s very difficult to make a case to people who have never seen opportunity on their own street that they should do this that or the other thing if there s no evidence of the opportunity that s at the end of the effort i have not been sparing in going for the last year and a half into places where it isn t exactly popular to say it and say i wanted to reform the welfare system i wanted to toughen child support i wanted to require people to work i was sick and tired of people being irresponsible in the use of guns on the streets and i wanted to change all that but if you re going to summon people to greater responsibility you have to reward them when they do the right thing with opportunity applause the young people we propose to put to work under our program will spend hours learning basic skills such as math reading writing either on the job in the classroom they will stretch their minds as well as work up a sweat they will have a sense of accomplishment it will literally be a summer challenge but a challenge that will take them into a different life so i want to ask all of you to support this effort even as i as your president support your effort at the end of the summer we will evaluate all the young people who participate we ll see whether they instead of falling behind over the summer academically as too many young people do they stayed even or moved ahead i suspect that they will this summer secretary reich and secretary riley and i will be visiting many of your communities we ll really try to learn from you which of these efforts are working what we should do next summer how we can build it in to what goes on during the school year how we can build in our job training efforts and the works that we do with your companies to make sense of this whole thing so that we maximize the impact of the taxpayer dollar and your private investments as well we want to honor the companies and the communities the business leaders and the young people who do the very best jobs this summer and again i want to say to all of you in private business who have matched our effort i thank you and to all of you who haven t and those across the country who may listen or learn about this event today i want to implore other private employers to stretch a little bit to give other young people a chance to work this summer i m telling you we cannot go through another years when we don t give these children anything to say yes to if we exhort them to do right we ve got to be able to reward them applause when the other speakers were talking i was sitting up here on the platform listening and reveling and they got talking about work and i got to thinking about all the different things i ve done to make a living in my life when i was i made a very foolish short term business investment i set up a comic book stand and sold two trunks full of comic books made more money than i had ever had in my life but if i had saved those trunks they d be worth today laughter that does not mean young people should not be entrepreneurial it just means that you can t foresee a generation ahead i have mowed yards and cleared land and built houses and worked in body shops and the parts departments of a car dealership and i ve done a lot of different things for a living some people say i got into politics to escape work laughter i learned something from every job i ever had but i grew up in a generation where i literally did not know a living soul without regard to race or income who wanted to work who didn t have a job i grew up in a generation when all you had to really say to people is get an education and you ll be all right you ll get a job and you ll make more money next year than you did this year now i live in a generation full of people most of whom don t make any more money in real dollars than they did years ago and they re working longer hours and they re paying more for the basics of life and we are now wondering whether we can create the jobs that these young people want now i want to close by reemphasizing these two things it doesn t matter what kind of economic policies this administration pursues or how much productivity increases there are in the private sector if young americans don t get a good education don t learn how to work and can t be productive those jobs will not be created in this country machines will do the work or the work will be done off shore by people who have the same skill levels and can work for a third or a fourth or a fifth the wages so nothing we can do economically will matter unless we build the skills and capacities of america s work force and anybody that pretends otherwise is just kidding on the other hand we need to be honest every wealthy country in the world including the united states is having difficulty creating jobs if i knew everything that needs to be done i d be glad to tell you and we could just call off the whole deliberations of congress and everything else i don t have all the answers but i know this doing nothing is not the answer applause and so the jobs program that i have presented to congress with the summer jobs with the money for the cities and the counties through the community development program with the infrastructure money is a small part of a big budget it is an attempt to engage in an experiment to see whether or not with the economy recovering in terms of corporate profit we can give a little boost to it give opportunities to young people create a half a million jobs and maybe get the engine going again most of the jobs in this program are going to be jobs in the private sector not government jobs even though it s government money and the lion s share of the work in rebuilding the american economy obviously will come from the private sector that s the kind of system we have and it works pretty well but this is the challenge we have so i ask all of you here today to support the summer jobs program to ask your friends and neighbors to support it to go back home and ask your employers to make a little extra effort to do what you can to help me pass the funds to create the jobs that the united states government should create this summer so that together we can have this partnership because more than anything else we have to give a future a future that our young people can believe in we need to send them a message that here in america if you study hard and work hard if you obey the law and contribute something to your community you will be rewarded by your country you can build a future from you own dreams that has always been the promise of america together that s what this summer of challenge needs to be a reaffirmation of the promise of america for so many young people to whom that promise has been an illusion we can make it a reality thank you very much applause end a m edt
talk.politics.misc	clinton press briefing by george stephanopoulos the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april press briefing by george stephanopoulos the briefing room p m edt mr stephanopoulos i guess i m just prepared to take questions today q george bob dole says that the clinton administration s policy on bosnia is a failure and that he wants the united states to take the lead in lifting the arms embargo so that the bosnian muslims can defend themselves mr stephanopoulos as you know president clinton has said that that suggestion is under active consideration obviously this is a tragic situation in bosnia and if the bosnian serbs don t come to the negotiating table in a constructive way we ll look seriously at pressing for lifting the arms embargo in the meantime we re going to continue to press for a tough sanctions resolution in the u n we re going to continue to work on the serbs to come to the negotiating table but the prospect of an arms embargo is something the president certainly will consider if the serbs don t come to the table q how much longer are you going to give them to come to the table george mr stephanopoulos we re working on that right now q it s been a long time q on february th the president mentioned the value added tax in ohio and when he was asked about it later by reporters he said quote that is a radical change in the tax system of the united states it s something i think we may have to look at in the years ahead questioned again about it later he says it is not something that is now under consideration if we start considering it i ll tell you it wasn t a trial balloon or anything he said i was just discussing the tax response to a question donna shalala quoted in usa today this morning quote certainly we re looking at a vat what s gone on q the same with alice rivlin this morning mr stephanopoulos the health care task force is reviewing a number of options they haven t made any decisions yet and as i have said from this podium time and time again we re not going to comment on decisions that haven t been made q but you have also said from this podium time and time again q wait a minute whoa nelly whoa q that that was not under consideration q yes clinton says it is not something that is now under consideration is that no longer true mr stephanopoulos i believe the working group as ms shalala says has looked at this prospect but no decisions have been made of any kind q well i know but he said he d tell us about it if it was ever under consideration i take it that now he is and he didn t tell us about it or mr stephanopoulos did he say if it was under consideration or if it was something to be proposed q if we start considering i ll tell you mr stephanopoulos if it s something to be proposed q if we start considering it i ll tell you that s a direct quote mr stephanopoulos the task force has looked at a number of different options they have not made any decisions yet the president has not made any decisions yet this is one of the proposals under consideration by the task force was to go out and cast as wide a net as possible for different ideas on how to reform the health care system they have cast a very wide net they have looked at hundreds of different proposals probably thousands of different proposals but the president has not made any decisions q well is the president aware of their consideration of this option mr stephanopoulos i don t know if he s been briefed on any preliminary conclusions or anything like that from the task force on this specific proposal of any kind i don t know that that s gotten to his level he started yesterday to go through with the task force a very wide range of decisions and i don t believe that that s been presented to him no q well he s not relying on the usa today to tell him what his task force is considering in the way of taxes mr stephanopoulos no he s going through it in a very deliberate fashion there are a number of decisions that have to be made i don t know that this proposal has reached that decision making point q if this is still under consideration that s a change at least from what we ve been told by dee dee i think about three weeks ago or so she said that is not an option talking about the had a big argument with somebody over this so i remember it specifically and said it not once but twice is that not the case mr stephanopoulos again i don t know if this has been presented to the president as something that is being looked at at some level in the task force q it was ruled it out though i mean unlike other options that you ve kept in the mix this one specifically was ruled out mr stephanopoulos again this is something that is being looked at but no decision has been made of any kind i mean it doesn t it s not necessarily material until you get to the decision making phase the working groups are looking at hundreds of different options q if it was ruled out before and it s not ruled out now then something has changed george yes no q when a guy says in february mr stephanopoulos well the working groups are looking at the widest possible range of options q so something s changed they weren t looking at it before they re looking at it now mr stephanopoulos well i don t know if the working groups have gotten to that point yet they are casting a very wide net q how was it possible that you and dee dee were able to sell definitively rule it out as an option previously and now are saying that in fact it is being considered mr stephanopoulos again the working groups are looking at a wide range of options they have not q do you deny that you and dee dee ruled it flatly ruled it out on several occasions in the past month mr stephanopoulos i don t deny that i mean those are the president s words those are very clear q subsequent to the president s words do you deny that within the last month you and dee dee have both publicly ruled it out mr stephanopoulos i don t know about the timing i think what we did was refer back to the president s words and say they stand q so don t they stand any longer q march th clinton said for the next four to five years it was ruled out mr stephanopoulos well those words the president did say that in february the working groups are on a separate track and as i said i don t believe q separate from the president mr stephanopoulos i don t believe this has been presented to the president q are they considering something that the president q has ruled out q has ruled out i mean will the president consider a vat tax mr stephanopoulos again the working groups have not presented this to the president they have looked at a wide range of options i suppose that if an argument is made he will clearly listen to it that does not mean he has decided to do it q can we put this another way in his answer in ohio he looked at the vat in terms of restructuring the whole tax system under those that was the circumstance that he said it might be considered at some future point is that no longer the case or is that the only way that he can see a vat emerging mr stephanopoulos i guess i m not sure exactly what you re asking q he talked about the vat in the context of a restructured tax system not as a specific way to finance health care for example q or anything else q or anything else q it was always in the context of substituting for other taxes at a time of a dramatic overhaul of the whole tax system mr stephanopoulos right q has that change too q is that still his view mr stephanopoulos i haven t spoken about those specific comments i think i can just go back to it are the working groups have they examined the possibility of a vat yes they have q certainly we re looking at a vat she said mr stephanopoulos they have examined the possibility of a vat has it been presented to the president has he made a decision no he has not q what kind of a deal do you have when you ve got the president s appointed task force obviously not oblivious to his ruling something out except in the context of some huge down the line reform goes ahead on its own and considers a tax which he has specifically ruled out in any context other than much later and then goes ahead and announces that that s what they re looking at is the president concerned about that sort of thing mr stephanopoulos i think that the president s concern is to make sure he gets the best health care proposal possible he s concerned with making sure that they have the most thorough process for examining all the possible alternatives all the different alternatives if a decision is made to go forward with something like that it s certainly something the president will explain and justify but no decision has been made along those lines q what does it mean exactly though when the president rules something out does it mean it can get back on the table later if a more persuasive argument is made mr stephanopoulos that s just that s indisputably true if you but at the same time he has not ruled it in he has not made a proposal q what makes him open to it now when he wasn t open to it before mr stephanopoulos he s certainly willing to listen to the argument q was he willing to listen to the argument for a short term tax this year and he wasn t willing to listen to it in chilicothe he s now open to it mr stephanopoulos the context of his comments was that it was not something he wanted to be clear that this is not something he was proposing not something he was floating q not something he was considering those are his words it s not something that s now under consideration if we start considering it i ll tell you you re now acknowledging are you not that it is under consideration and mr stephanopoulos i m acknowledging that the task force has studied this proposal i am also stating that the president has not made a decision on it q but the door is open for the president to reconsider including this as part of mr stephanopoulos obviously the working groups are looking at it again but the president has not made a decision q do you know if they will make a presentation on behalf of the vat to him mr stephanopoulos i don t know that i assume that if i don t know what stage they are it in proposing i don t know that they re going to make the conclusion that this is something they should present to him i know this is something the working groups are looking at q do you understand george that none of us are asking these questions in context of a decision that the president has made only about what the president is considering mr stephanopoulos i understand that and i am acknowledging that the working groups have examined the issue of a vat q and the president will consider it mr stephanopoulos i assume that he will consider the argument if it is presented to him q does that mean the president that working groups think that when the president says no he means maybe laughter mr stephanopoulos i think that means that the working groups are trying to do the most thorough job possible q george can i ask you another question about bosnia mr stephanopoulos sure laughter q no he wants us to stay on this q let s do gays in the military laughter q no he got out of that swamp q i think we ve gotten the bottom line on that vat reggie bartholomew your special ambassador in belgrade today said that if the serbs do not accept the agreement that has been worked out quote we will do our part to pursue the lifting of the arms embargo together with our allies that seems to go a bit further than what you ve just said mr stephanopoulos sounds almost exactly what i just said q well do you accept in other words you accept what reggie mr stephanopoulos well the president has said that this is something that s under consideration it is something he will consider if the current actions don t bring the serbs to the table q isn t there some kind of timetable here mr stephanopoulos yes there is a timetable there s going to be a vote on the u n resolution in about days q that s on sanctions that s on tightening the sanctions mr stephanopoulos that s right that s sanctions and we believe that that will ratchet up the pressure and we hope that that will bring the serbs to the table as you know mr bartholomew also met with mr churkin of russia and they are also working on ways to bring the serbs to the table we will continue to pressure them in many different ways and this is one possible option as well q the question is whether there s a timetable for consideration or a vote on a decision on lifting the arms embargo not the sanctions mr stephanopoulos the next vote in the u n is on sanctions as far as i know there are no votes scheduled on lifting the arms embargo but it is something that we have discussed both internally and with our allies q why did reggie bartholomew tell the serbs that the u s would do that what was the point of his telling them that mr stephanopoulos well clearly i mean this is something that s under consideration and this is something that we take quite seriously if they do not come to the table they should know the consequences of failing to come to the table q have they been given a deadline q warren christopher has been saying the same thing and it hasn t seemed to change the serbs behavior in the least why should the serbs take any heed of a threat to lift the arms embargo when so far everything that s been done has had no effect on the fighting in bosnia mr stephanopoulos i just don t accept the premise of your question it has had an effect the embargo is having an effect q what effect mr stephanopoulos if the serbians choose not to heed our warnings then they will face the consequences q what effect has it had in bosnia mr stephanopoulos well the effect that it has had on the serbians it has tightened up they are not getting their shipments through we can brief more fully q in bosnia george in bosnia what effect has it had mr stephanopoulos well it s hard to say if it s stopped the aggression to date that is why we re continuing to press for the serbians to stop but we believe that over time we will continue to weaken the serbs and that will have an effect i m not saying it s going to happen overnight it clearly hasn t happened overnight but we believe that over time the sanctions can weaken the serbs if it fails to work and if the serbs fail to come to the negotiating table we ll move forward with the embargo q isn t there a working deadline george of the th the same date as the u n the scheduled u n vote hasn t the united states said along with many of the other nato allies that if the serbs aren t willing to sign on to the peace accord by then that we ll seek haven t we said that we will seek mr stephanopoulos we ve said continually we re going to q but on that deadline mr stephanopoulos i don t have a specific date but we re going to move forward with the resolution the u n resolution by around that time and if that fails to take effect if that fails to bring the serbs to the table we will clearly consider other actions q isn t this awfully incremental mr stephanopoulos we re taking a step by step approach we re ratcheting up the pressure and we re going to continue to do that q is there a possibility george that by the time all these incremental steps are taken the serbs will have achieved their goals and then what s the purpose mr stephanopoulos i think the purpose is to get the serbs to stop the aggression we are pursuing that goal on many different fronts we are pursuing it through the u n we re pursuing it through direct talks we are pursuing it through tightening the sanctions and we will consider lifting the arms embargo we are turning the screws up on the serbs and we will continue to do that q but if the efforts have been unsuccessful in getting the serbs to stop the aggression how effective will any campaign be to have the serbs give back what they ve gained i mean once they re entrenched mr stephanopoulos i can t speculate on that we re going to continue to press for them to come to the table now we re going to continue to find ways to stop the aggression but i can t see into the future q george on the stimulus package house republicans say they re going to hold a series of town meetings on saturday to try and explain the details of your package they cite polls which show that the more people learn about it the less they like it what s your strategy to counter that mr stephanopoulos the strategy we have is the one we re going to continue as you saw the president today pointed up the very real benefits of the summer jobs program that this package will provide new summer jobs this summer for kids in inner cities and suburbs to do productive work we are also going to point out the benefits of the highway money the investments in highways we re going to point up the benefits of immunization we re going to point up the benefits of head start we are going to say that the republicans have a choice they can take action to create jobs or they can perpetuate the gridlock of the last four years q does it concern you though that the house now the house republicans are after you as well as the senate mr stephanopoulos the house republicans voted against it before they made a mistake then they re making a mistake now q george does it strike anybody in the administration that it s a bit strong to describe as the president did this morning the summer jobs program as quote a reaffirmation of a promise of america mr stephanopoulos not at all i think it s the promise of america to give kids a chance to reach their full potential q government funded jobs mr stephanopoulos to give people a chance to work absolutely that is the promise of america q i want to follow up on something i asked yesterday where does summer jobs where does that figure come from mr stephanopoulos that is on top of i did look at it there are currently summer jobs in the pipeline this will be on top of the so it will be a total of million q the would be created by the stimulus package mr stephanopoulos yes q where does that number come from because we ve been told all along that the stimulus package would create new jobs and according to panetta that breaks down to something like full time jobs and summer jobs mr stephanopoulos yes but the summer that s when you do their full time equivalence i mean individuals will receive jobs this summer when you calculate it for the full time job effect you have to do i don t know what the exact formula is q seven hundred thousand part time jobs mr stephanopoulos or q one to four because it s three months mr stephanopoulos thank you q can i follow up on that did the president misspeak this morning when he said that some of the government money for these summer jobs will pay for private for kids to work in the private sector mr stephanopoulos not necessarily i mean i think that there will be grants available that s one of the ways that you pay for the jobs at the same time he s also issued a challenge to the private sector to hire kids on their own as well q tax dollars for instance would pay for kids to work at time warner mr stephanopoulos i think the time warner is actually somebody coming forward and actually doing a grant that s going to be the bulk of it there could be isolated instances though where there would be grants to businesses q has the president spoken with any senate republicans this week mr stephanopoulos no but there s been a lot of contact with senate republicans in the white house q at a lower level but the president hasn t mr stephanopoulos the president has not no q getting any closer to get the votes mr stephanopoulos we re continuing to work on it q anybody leaning your way q on haiti the new york times seems to be reporting something of a breakthrough in aristide s attitude towards the coup leaders can you confirm that there has been this change and what impact will it have on the process and what did pezzullo have to say yesterday in his report mr stephanopoulos pezzullo did brief the principals i can t confirm what s actually happening in the talks i would leave that to the negotiators themselves but mr caputo has returned to haiti we have received a briefing here at the white house from ambassador pezzullo and as we have said time and time again we believe that assurances of security are important to a final resolution to a broader political settlement q george yesterday you offered some selective breakdowns of how the stimulus would impact some states and cities can we get a complete breakdown by state of how these jobs would be impacted mr stephanopoulos i think we have it for most states yes and i think we can get it out q could you make that generally available mr stephanopoulos i believe we can q and could you do it by the component of the stimulus in other words mr stephanopoulos i don t know if we can do i know that we can do it by summer jobs and other jobs i don t know how deeply it can be broken down but clearly we can break it down into summer jobs and other jobs q and can i follow up is this the information that jeff eller and the rest of the white house is using in the ads in the states mr stephanopoulos i don t know if they re ads but they re press releases q can you describe what those press releases contain mr stephanopoulos all we re doing is pointing out the benefits of this package to various states for instance i know that today senator dole is heading up to vermont and new hampshire and i would point out that the stimulus package the jobs package creates jobs in vermont it creates jobs in new hampshire and the people of those states should remind him that this is important q where are the releases going mr stephanopoulos they go to the states q to whom mr stephanopoulos we can get them it s no problem q can we get it q why don t you put them out here as well mr stephanopoulos i think we can q this afternoon would that be possible mr stephanopoulos i ll have to check i don t know but as soon as we can q are you focusing these press releases on states where there are moderate or pragmatic republican senators mr stephanopoulos i think we re trying to get as many as we can it s actually quite difficult to pull this together and we re doing our best we re putting them out as we get them q why are you so closely tracking senator dole s schedule mr stephanopoulos i was just following it q are press releases going along to states where he s visiting mr stephanopoulos i m not sure i think that probably there are press releases going to vermont laughter q will there be a man in a chicken suit waiting laughter q george as the president goes about the business of defending what s in his stimulus package he doesn t address what seems to be the republicans main point that you re funding it with deficit spending rather than if it s so important why not come up with the funding for it seems to be the republican argument and how do you answer that mr stephanopoulos what was answer is we are paying for it over time and if you look at our budget we pay for this package over time we believe right now the economy needs a jump start for jobs q you re not claiming are you that that doesn t add to the deficit this year mr stephanopoulos i m saying we re paying for it over time i didn t say that q i know that george but i mean from the beginning the question we do have annual budgets and things deficit spending will pay for that this year will it not mr stephanopoulos this year they clearly will but over time our budget fully pays for this program q what you re saying is that there are savings that would cover this if it were this year in future years mr stephanopoulos absolutely that s exactly what i said q i know that but there is going to be outstanding debt it will add to the national debt from this year mr stephanopoulos no we re reducing the deficit by billion billion over the next four years q you mean you re reducing it below what it would have been mr stephanopoulos exactly q in fact you re adding a very large amount to the national debt over the period of mr stephanopoulos but we re reducing it far more from what it would have been that s true q washington type reduction laughter q you re getting to be a grumpy old man q george has any decision been made about the white house or the president s participation in the gay rights march coming up in a week and a half mr stephanopoulos we re working on the president s schedule now i believe he s going to be at the senate democratic retreat in jamestown that weekend q will he address it by phone mr stephanopoulos i don t know about that it s a little far out but i believe he s going to be in the senate retreat q so will he have the leaders in a day or two before the speech mr stephanopoulos i don t know i would expect that at some point he would meet with the leaders of some of these groups i don t know the schedule on it though q will there be an aids czar appointed prior to or in conjunction with the event mr stephanopoulos i m just not sure q april nd is earth day what is the president going to do to mark that and is it the case that he is going to sign the biodiversity treaty that day mr stephanopoulos i know there s been some work on the biodiversity treaty i don t know about signing it that day but i would expect he ll have a statement on earth day or right around then q where is the work on the biodiversity treaty mr stephanopoulos i d have to check with katie mcginty i just know that there s been some work done but i don t know exactly what q when is earth day mr stephanopoulos the nd i think q why is it you know that he is going to have a statement on earth day but you don t know if he s going to have a statement on the gay rights march mr stephanopoulos i said i don t know if he s going to meet or when he s going to meet q do you have a statement on the gay rights march mr stephanopoulos i don t actually no i wouldn t be surprised if he did though q do you have some details on the miyazawa visit mr stephanopoulos it s a working visit on friday and the president is looking forward to that in discussing a number of issues including russian aid and the japanese stimulus package and the trade issues between the two countries q there was some expectations that a second aid package to russia was going to be unveiled at the g meeting and if i understand it hasn t happened why is that or what s the status on that mr stephanopoulos the g meeting is still going on and as you know secretaries bentsen and christopher have talked about the outlines of a possible package but we re going to continue to consult with congress and our g allies on that q we will not then make any kind of announcement during the two day meeting mr stephanopoulos the meeting s not over yet q is that when you re going to make one mr stephanopoulos i m not ruling out the possibility q the president s going to announce it tomorrow q bentsen said that q yes bentsen said it would be tomorrow q so did christopher mr stephanopoulos i d have to look at that but i believe it is more likely that the announcement will come out of tokyo q george has there been further consideration here about going to sending the president out to los angeles mr stephanopoulos i don t know that there s it s not something we ve ruled out we don t have a date set for it q george you all have a position or do you support immigration s plan to settle iraqi prisoners in the united states mr stephanopoulos it s the first i ve heard of it q george there was a report today about the q fortunately laughter q about the pace of appointments and says that president clinton is behind president bush in the number of positions that people have been nominated for are you going to speed up the pace of nominations or where do you stand with it mr stephanopoulos we filled of the president s appointments and it s broken down we have schedule c noncareer ses pas full time i m not sure what that means laughter pa full time and this is about the same it s about the same pace of president bush obviously as you move along farther once you each level of appointment actually has a multiplier effect and frees up far more appointments so we expect the process to speed up but we re at the pace of bush obviously we d like to get these done as quickly as possible i would point out that the fbi background checks and the background check is far more comprehensive and it takes more time than our predecessors and that is part of the holdup but we re working on it q is that because of nannygate mr stephanopoulos i think that s an awful big part of it yes q in the story this morning you were at approximately the same pace as bush in making appointments but way behind in winning confirmations mr stephanopoulos that s where the background checks comes into play that s the problem q that s the background checks problem because i mean you have a democratic senate mr stephanopoulos no that s not the you make the appointments and then it takes quite a bit of time to fill out all the forms and have the background checks done that s exactly where the problem is q what s the president doing this afternoon and what s on the plan for tomorrow mr stephanopoulos he s got some meetings just office meetings this afternoon for the most part on a variety of issues that probably a half dozen different issues and then he ll be tomorrow we ll have an event probably again focused on the stimulus and jobs package out of here at the white house and friday is the miyazawa meeting q will you be releasing his tax return tomorrow george mr stephanopoulos either tomorrow or friday q is there going to be a pre briefing regarding the japanese prime minister s visit tomorrow mr stephanopoulos i don t know about tomorrow but we ll probably get something done as we usually do for these visits q was reverend jackson here this morning and do you know what that was about mr stephanopoulos he was here he met with a group of us here at the white house including mack mclarty q who q reverend jackson mr stephanopoulos reverend jackson mack mclarty me gene sperling bruce reed jeff watson mark gearan q talking about haiti mr stephanopoulos we talked about general urban policy he is about to go to los angeles he was just back from mississippi where we had a good victory last night and he s going on to los angeles q did he request the meeting mr stephanopoulos actually no he s in continual contact with the president he had written a letter on a variety of issues and so we asked him to come in and talk about it q george dole is having a fundraiser for jeffords tonight in vermont have you guys been in contact with jeffords at all on this mr stephanopoulos i think there s been some contact sure q can you tell us about the contacts mr stephanopoulos i m not sure q do you know who contacted him or what was said mr stephanopoulos i know that howard paster talked to him and they just has a general talk about the package q and did he express his support for it now or is he mr stephanopoulos i can t divulge the details of the conversation but there have been conversations q the l a times is reporting that abortion elective abortions is likely to be included in the basic health care package is this something the president is considering mr stephanopoulos again q along with the vat laughter mr stephanopoulos it s certainly something that s been looked at but no decisions have been made q what was the question mr stephanopoulos the l a times story on whether abortions will be covered by the president s health plan q did the president in his meeting did you in your meeting with reverend jackson ask his advice solicit his advice about what kind of stance the white house should take in the wake of the verdict in l a mr stephanopoulos well we certainly talked about the situation in los angeles and the long term prospects for economic development and other issues q for instance did you discuss whether it would be helpful for the president to go there or not mr stephanopoulos well we discussed a wide range of issues related to los angeles that was certainly one of them q letting you perhaps go out on the way you came in i need to go back to bosnia just for a second and ask mr stephanopoulos oh good q your reaction to margaret thatcher s comments that you re just sitting by and watching a massacre mr stephanopoulos well we ve been pushing very hard on a number of fronts for more aggressive action we will continue to do that q can you tell us if you ve made any progress in your talks on the stimulus package getting a compromise i mean we don t have any feel except talks are ongoing have you talked to like people or mr stephanopoulos i don t know the numbers we ve talked to several people and we ve had wide ranging sessions q anyone leaning your way mr stephanopoulos i can t get into that we re just going to keep working through tuesday the press thank you end p m edt
talk.politics.misc	re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in article c ij h l news iastate edu jrbeach iastate edu jeffry r beach writes in article apr gordian com mike gordian com michael a thomas writes in article c huh news iastate edu jrbeach iastate edu jeffry r beach writes think about it shouldn t all drugs then be legalized it would lower the cost and definitely make them safer to use yes i don t think we want to start using these criterion to determine legality why not where do they get these people what pray tell does this mean just who exactly is they you mean they as in people who do not blindly swallow every piece of propoganda they are given or they as in nokd not our kind dear or they as in an appeal to some audience that is supposed to implicitly know and understand i really don t want to waste time in here to do battle about the legalization of drugs if you really want to we can get into it and prove just how idiotic that idea is read i do not know what the fuck i m talking about and am not eager to make a fool of myself my point was that it is pretty stupid to justify legalizing something just because it will be safer and cheaper from a pragmatic standpoint there certainly is some justification if it is a vice people will commit anyway shall we criminalize alcohol again if the re legalization for alcohol were done from anything other than the pragmatic standpoint i d be happy to hear about it the fact is that it wasn t a few more ideas to hold to these criterion prostitution the killing of all funny farm patients aids victims elderly unemployed prisioners etc this would surely make my taxes decrease only the first one make any sense there is nothing to legalize about all the rest just in case you haven t made the connection which i expect you haven t the connecting theme in this thread is a persons autonomy over their life and body vice statutes serve only to make it more expensive for the rich and more dangerous for the poor as tim so eloquently put it people will however take autonomy over their lives regardless of what the government says and why pray tell is aids victim in snear quotes are you of the revisionist sort that thinks there is no such thing as the aids plauge or do they just deserve it michael thomas mike gordian com i don t think bambi eyes will get you that flame thrower hobbes to calvin usnail irvine ave santa ana heights ca pabell fax
talk.politics.misc	clinton president s public schedule the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release march public events on the president s schedule for thursday april am est the president meets with leadership of law enforcement organizations the rose garden open press am edt the president meets with the national ambassador for the march of dimes birth defects foundation the oval office tv pool open still photo writing pool am edt the president meets with mosaic minstrels of new york ny the rose garden open photo writing pool am edt the president meets with the berwick pa high school bulldogs aaa state football champions the south lawn open photo writing pool upcoming events on the president s schedule april the president meets with japanese prime minister miyazawa the white house april president clinton meets with president amato of italy the white house
talk.politics.misc	nlns fascism with a friendly face from new liberation news service nlns subject nlns fascism with a friendly face written pm apr by nlns igc apc org in igc nlns news nlns packet fascism with a friendly face does rush limbaugh remind you of anyone daevid bornhuetter machen the madison edge the main difference between adolf hitler and rush limbaugh is that hitler was original and showed initiative mort sahl on the tom snyder radio show abc radio network october nlns believe it or not i was planning this comparative review of mein kampf and limbaugh s transcribed rant the way things ought to be before sahl issued his comparative review as usual sahl s was independent and sharp as a scalpel my effort can only dream of comparing favorably to mort s at least it has a fairly popular orginating premise everyone i d mention the idea to thought it was either divinely inspired or at least past due for delivery those reactions are based on parallels that should be obvious to the most peripheral observer of the acts of those false prophets both are noted for their galvanizing oratorical skills which they both used with passion to generate a political cult of massive numerical proportions in fact limbaugh claims to have an audience of just over million almost identical to the number of votes cast for hitler in the april german election both used a myopic social perspective to build the cult and enthusiastically amputated facts from the record to fabricate their ideological quilt the last point is glaringly documented by passages in the opening pages of both books hitler s example is when on page he claims the german nationalist terrorist leo schlageter he bombed part of a railway line between dusseldorf and duisburg being caught in the act in was betrayed to france by a representative of his government when there has never been any factual foundation for such a statement in fact the governments of both the reich and prussia as well as the vatican actively intervened to save him from execution and almost succeeded limbaugh follows suit by making the hysterically sarcastic claim in his introduction that in a school or during a commencement ceremony or many other public places god is unconstitutional of course it s not god but the official imposition of particular concepts of god against an individual s will that s unconstitutional but limbaugh is too gleeful in his talent for distortion to want you to know that of course one would assume that by comparing the two books my main point would be that the way things ought to be is the modern american mein kampf not really at the time of the first german version of mein kampf hitler was just four months out of prison june and trying to reorganize the nazis he used the book to build his dozen million followers limbaugh on the other hand came up with his book after building his dozen million twelve million went a longer way in weimar germany that it does in the republicrat united states thus the more accurate parallels would be that limbaugh s daily three hour radio show is the american mein kampf the primary propoganda tool used to pump up the angry volume and that the way things ought to be is actually the american triumph of the will a translation of the same fascist message into a different medium also the printed word was the more important medium in weimar germany since radio was still being thought of by impoverished germans as a medium of luxury in today on the other hand americans are more likely to spend a few seconds to tune a radio dial at no monetary charge than drop for pages of transcripts of the same words but as mort sahl also observed on the radio the other night some cloutmeister of the radical right wants limbaugh to be a focal point of their propoganda and remember sahl is an al haig conservative these days mort might not know exactly who rush s equivalent of rodolf hess is the book itself suggests ed mclaughlin the former president of abc radio and now limbaugh s partner in efm media the radio program s production company but mort himself is a veteran of the talk show having hosted them in new york washington and los angeles he knows what evil lurks in the hearts of major market media men he knows that limbaugh could not have collected his audience had not the opportunity been placed on a silver platter and handed to him limbaugh earns his money just as honestly as al capone did it s almost worthy of a rico indictment on questions of social issues there is an overabundance of material in the limbaugh book that seems to echo hitler s venom for example on their own qualifications to control society hitler out of the host of sometimes millions of people who individually more or less clearly and distinctly guess the truth partly perhaps understand it one man author s emphasis must step forward in order to form with apodeictic force out of the wavering world of imagination of the great masses granite principles and to take up the fight for their sole correctness until out of the playing waves of a free world of thought a brazen rock of uniform combination of form and will arises page limbaugh who needs the media when they ve got me the show is devoted exclusively to what i think the phrase with half my brain tied behind my back to make it even denotes the egress of mental aptitude i require to engage and demolish liberals and others who disagree with me it might take four or five years but i m convinced the media will slowly and reluctantly come around to my way of thinking kicking and screaming all the way pages and respectively on religion as the basis of a nation hitler in this world human culture and civilization are inseperably bound up with the existence of the aryan his dying off or his decline would again lower upon this earth the dark veils of a time without culture he who dares to lay hand upon the highest image of the lord sins against the benevolent creator of this miracle and helps in the expulsion from paradise page limbaugh america was founded as a judeo christian country but our intellectual and political elites are often either hostile or ambivalent toward religion people for whom belief in god is at best a charming superstition have managed to ban prayer from the public schools for the last thirty years is it only a coincidence that the quality of american education has declined ever since pages on popular culture as a reason for social collapse hitler the fight against the poisoning of the soul has to set in one has only to look at the menus of our movie houses vaudevilles and theatres and one can hardly deny that this is not the right kind of food theatre art literature movies the press billposters and window displays must be cleaned of the symptoms of a rotting world and put into the service of a moral idea of state and culture pages and limbaugh today hollywood is in trouble the reason is that hollywood has forgotten who its audience is they make fun of people who believe in god they ridicule the traditional family heterosexuality and monagamy they disparage american heroes page on the news meida hitler the activity of the so called liberal press was the work of gravediggers for the german people and the german reich one can pass by in silence the marxist papers of lies it s task is only to break the people s folkish and national spine in order to make it ripe for the yoke of slavery of international capital and its masters the jews page limbaugh elements of the media have jumped on the bandwagon of leftist causes the cynical journalist of the past has been replaced in many cases by an enthusiastic cheerleader for causes during the gulf war cnn correspondent bernard shaw said cnn is a global network we can t take sides cant take sides if they don t realize that their freedom lies in the united states of america and that therefore they should defend this nation they are hopelessly misguided and may i suggest flirting with megalomania pages and to continue these comparative excerpts is certainly possible but ultimately too depressing to take in one reading after putting these books down there is one undeniable fact that haunts me in the s adolf hitler fed depressed and frightened germans the opiate of hatred of those around them in turn it allowed germans to hand their collective national power to the nazis in the s rush limbaugh is doing the very same thing distributing hatred to depressed and frightened americans in turn it is helping the american radical right to maintain its power base as the year nightmare of the reagan bush era comes to an end hoping to rebuild it into their hopes for the fascist states of america and if limbaugh is not as repellant a hitler it is only because the radical right utilizes limbaugh as its own gateway opiate one can only wonder what the ultimate drug is they plan to hook america on the madison edge can be reached at po box madison wi
talk.politics.misc	re is la burning yet in article master cna tek com mikeq freddy cna tek com writes i hear the jury reached a verdict where did you hear this i seem to have missed it is la burning yet no will l a burn no regardless of the verdict i m not near a radio count your blessings the views expressed herein are theodore a kaldis my own only do you seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe that a major university rutgers remus rutgers edu kaldis as this would hold such views
talk.politics.misc	clinton war powers resolution on bosnia the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april text of a letter from the president to the speaker of the house of representatives and the president pro tempore of the senate april dear mr speaker dear mr president as part of my continuing effort to keep the congress fully informed i am providing this report consistent with section of the war powers resolution to advise you of actions that i have ordered in support of the united nations efforts in bosnia herzegovina beginning with u n security council resolution of september the united nations has been actively addressing the crisis in the former yugoslavia the security council acted in resolution to establish a ban on all unauthorized military flights over bosnia herzegovina there have however been blatant violations of the ban and villages in bosnia have been bombed in response to these violations the security council decided in resolution of march to extend the ban to all unauthorized flights over bosnia herzegovina and to authorize member states acting nationally or through regional organi zations to take all necessary measures to ensure compliance nato s north atlantic council nac agreed to provide nato air enforcement for the no fly zone the u n secretary general was notified of nato s decision to proceed with operation deny flight and an activation order was delivered to participating allies the united states actively supported these decisions at my direction the joint chiefs of staff sent an execute order to all u s forces participating in the nato force for the conduct of phased air operations to prevent flights not authorized by the united nations over bosnia herzegovina the u s forces initially assigned to this operation consist of f and f a fighter aircraft and supporting tanker aircraft these aircraft commenced enforcement operations at a m e d t on april the fighter aircraft are equipped for combat to accomplish their mission and for self defense nato has positioned forces and has established combat air patrol cap stations within the control of airborne early warning aew aircraft the u s cap aircraft will normally operate from bases in italy and from an aircraft carrier in the adriatic sea unauthorized aircraft entering or approaching the no fly zone will be identified interrogated intercepted escorted monitored and turned away in that order if these steps do not result in compliance with the no fly zone such aircraft may be engaged on the basis of proper authorization by nato military authorities and in accordance with the approved more over rules of engagement although we do not expect such action will be necessary the commander of unprofor the united nations protection force currently operating in bosnia herzegovina was consulted to ensure that his concerns for his force were fully considered before the rules of engagement were approved it is not possible to predict at this time how long such operations will be necessary i have directed u s armed forces to participate in these operations pursuant to my constitutional authority as commander in chief i am grateful for the con tinuing support that the congress has given to this effort and i look forward to continued cooperation as we move forward toward attainment of our goals in this region sincerely william j clinton
talk.politics.misc	re temper tantrums from the s in article apr pony ingres com garrett ingres com writes in article philc ht t gwa netcom com phil netcom com phil ronzone writes along with normalized relations with the prc normalizing relations with cambodia you must be joking we sponsored the overthrow of the cambodian government after repeated failed attempts of course prc people s republic of china cambodia go play dave griffith information resources university of chicago department of surgery dave alex bsd uchicago edu brain damage was what we were after the chromosome damage was just gravy
talk.politics.misc	re to be or not to be a disaster in article philc ht h netcom com phil netcom com phil ronzone writes not at all you are apparently just another member of the religious left show me all these environmental disasters most of them aren t and the natural disasters we have had individually far outweigh the man made ones most of your so called disasters love canal times beach tmi aren t disasters at all so look if you want to worship trees or owls or snails or whatever fine do so but don t try to push the scaredness of your religious off onto me if you want to see environmental disasters go to eastern europe or some parts of the fsu former soviet union this is because they had no environmental protection laws and were trying to increase productivity at any expense to justify their political systems luckily for us some of our politicians with vision passed some environmental laws that isn t to say that they shouldn t be modified but all i ever hear from you is that the environmental laws were dreamed up by a bunch of left wing tree huggers intent on putting us back on horseback yes there are some of those but a lot of us simply want to procede with caution john viveiros jviv chevron com chevron usa standard disclaimer applies midland tx netnews userid for nntpserver chevron com who said no news is good news
talk.politics.misc	re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate in article slagle apr sgi msd lmsc lockheed com slagle lmsc lockheed com writes in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes in article apr cbnewse cb att com doctor cbnewse cb att com patrick b hailey writes the point is that this law protects no one but the established car dealers or people with enough money to start a fairly big operation all at once protecting these folks from competition protects the rest of us from low prices and high quality an excellent point but you seem to be missing a more subtle point it is not the government that should be the recipient of your displeasure but the established business interests that influence and direct government action in this case it is the government that is preventing entry to the market the desire of those running established businesses to prevent or restrict the entry of competitors is an understandable though generally unpleasant human failing but without a means to act on this desire without a government with sufficient power to restrict the options of the potential competitor the anti competitive desire remains just an unpleasant wish the government is the linchpin so we seek to disengage it so we don t get the shaft once again mark you don t specify the means through which the government is to be prevented from becoming the tool of business interests as a left wing big government conventional liberal i m just as willing as you are to vote against anti competitive regulations that favor auto dealers but what i hear from libertarians is a desire to limit incumbents terms to weaken government by eliminating its power to enforce antitrust laws and a desire to eliminate legislator s pay each strikes me as a particularly ineffective way to insure that auto dealers and other special interests cannot influence public policy in fact they seem clearly designed to accomplish the opposite jsh mark steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing about data it sure does cut uucp uunet isc br thor steveh the bulls t r hofferbert ma bell
talk.politics.misc	re the role of the national news media in inflaming passions in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes i m sick of it this continual effort to inflame the passions of americans by playing every trial as completely sexist racist or gay bashing when the realities are seldom this simple this is what happens when a society becomes tied up in ideologies i have come to the conclusion that the tv stations here in la want a riot to happen when the verdict comes in in a not so subtle way they are preparing their audience for the worst and even going so far as to want something to happen for their viewers with all their commercials and their we are ready for anything so watch us messages carlos i as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race abraham lincoln ames elroy jpl devvax beowulf pituco carlos
talk.politics.misc	re gore throws out the first ball and media coverage of it in article apr hemlock cray com rja mahogany cray com russ anderson writes in article c e ja ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com mark wilson writes this past thursday vp gore threw out the first ball at the home opener for the atlanta braves according to the news reports he was quite loudly booed no dr norman these were not your typical beer swilling red necks personally i wouldn t have paid any more attention to the incident except that the evening news when describing the event went on to comment that being booed was nothing unusual since it was normal for audiences to boo at this point since the celebrity was delaying the start of the game what a bunch of crock i have never heard of any incident in which the thrower of the ceremonial ball has been booed before dan quayle got roundly booed in milwaulkee last year i was listening on the radio this was the game that quayle told the brewers players that he would like to see them play the orioles in the alcs it s come to this has it defending al gore by comparing him to dan quayle i d say that about says it all back to the pit with ye back to alt fan dan quayle begone paul havemann internet paul hsh com they re not just opinions they re caffeine for the brain up to milligrams per cynical observation recommended minimum daily requirement mg keep reading
talk.politics.misc	re clinton president to nominate carter for nuclear security post in article qgbljinnn o life ai mit edu clinton hq campaign org clinton gore writes the white house office of the president for immediate release april president to nominate carter for nuclear security no no no bill please don t nominate anyone who pronounces it noo q lar jimmy always used to drive everyone nuts when he did that and don t let amy anywhere near and washington dc the president announced today that he intends to nominate ashton carter the director of harvard s center for science and international affairs to be assistant secretary of defense for nuclear security and counter proliferation emily litella voice never mind paul havemann internet paul hsh com they re not just opinions they re caffeine for the brain up to milligrams per cynical observation recommended minimum daily requirement mg keep reading
talk.politics.misc	re employment was re why not concentrate on child molesters in article c hf r cg ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com mark wilson writes in c fg t at exnet co uk sys exnet co uk xavier gallagher writes i have to disagree you do not take your logic far enough true man did not invent the need for food shelter warmth and the ilk but man did invent the property laws and the laws of trespass i guess xavier has never heard of territoriality in animals many animals especially preditors will stake out a territory and chase of any members of the same species that tries to invade their territory yes i have wasn t there a case of a single lion ruling all the land from south africa up to egypt across to the congo if my memory serves me correctly there was enough game to feed some or more lions but he wouldn t let the other lions hunt as he wanted it all himself he died of a heart attack brought on by being overweight good thing too as he had designs on europe america north and south and the falkland islands mark wilson atlantaga ncr com xavier
talk.politics.misc	re af ats red army fraction raf communique in article c vbm gs ncoast org cmort ncoast org christopher morton writes as quoted from c vctb j h dscomsa desy de by hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker isn t it wonderfull the way people can make the sadistic and indescriminate murder of the bader meinhof gang sound like altruism gee phil i d remember where you are and that these people are monitoring the net i d also remember that they have about as much sense of humor as ed damn it isn t big brother after all and all this time i thought that all those revolutionaries while blowing things up and killing the odd innocent person in the process really did love all us proles cause everybody knows that dialectical materialism will save you even if it has to get you killed first what a fool i ve been
talk.politics.misc	re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate in article apr tijc uucp pjs tijc uucp paul schmidt writes steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes as noted in another thread limiting govt the problem libertarians face is insuring that the limited government they seek does not become the tool of private interests to pursue their own agenda believe it or not we liberals are frequently as opposed to anti competitive measures as you conservatives we don t believe however that competition will necessarily be protected by the actions of business interests in a free market after all in the example you cite it was not liberals that pressed for such regulations but good staunch conservative businessmen as adam smith so eloquently demonstrated the free market is not something that capitalists seek to protect when they can profit from its elimination the same point was made by marx a point of agreement between the two theorists that should tell us something i do not want the government to become a tool of private interests limited government cannot insure that private interests will not use this government for their own agenda agreed but this is not a failure of libertarianism it is the fact that utopia is not an option there is no single system where everything is perfect it is a failure of libertarianism if the ideology does not provide any reasonable way to restrain such actions other than utopian dreams just as marxism fails to specify how pure communism is to be achieved and the state is to wither away libertarians frequently fail to show how weakening the power of the state will result in improvement in the human condition so it is wise to look for the best solution if you compare countries to see which ones people would rather live in which ones have less starvation hunger poverty and misery you will find that they have a more limitted government than countries with alot of poverty misery and suffering no limitted government cannot insure anything but it sure is better than the alternative big government this is a strawman argument and fails on several grounds in this case limited and big government are not defined i would point out that lebanon somalia and the former yugoslavia are by some definitions nations with limited government while the us canada and nations in western europe where people would rather live are often pointed out as nations with big government from a libertarian point of view the argument is not between those who want limited government and those who want unlimited government it is between those who believe government regulation in a capitalist economy serves worthwhile ends and those who believe such regulation is neither desirable on empirical grounds nor justifiable on ideological grounds jsh paul schmidt advocates for self government davy crockett chapter president steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing about data it sure does cut uucp uunet isc br thor steveh the bulls t r hofferbert ma bell
talk.politics.misc	re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in article apr gordian com mike gordian com michael a thomas writes in article c huh news iastate edu jrbeach iastate edu jeffry r beach writes think about it shouldn t all drugs then be legalized it would lower the cost and definitely make them safer to use yes i don t think we want to start using these criterion to determine legality why not where do they get these people i really don t want to waste time in here to do battle about the legalization of drugs if you really want to we can get into it and prove just how idiotic that idea is you think that you all have it bad here at good ol southwest missouri state u we have parties running for student body president there s the token sorority fraternity faces and then there s the president and vice president of norml they campaigned by handing out condoms and listing their qualifications as i listen really well it makes me sick to have a party established on many of the things that are ruining this country like they are i think i ll run next year darin j keener dak s vma smsu edu pc the idea that catering to splinter groups is the way to go
talk.politics.misc	re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in article c huh news iastate edu jrbeach iastate edu jeffry r beach writes i would be upset that although abortions would continue they would be a lot more expensive for the rich and a lot less safe for the poor so now things are supposed to be legal just to keep their cost down and the safety factor high in the case of victimless crimes yes i think so think about it if i rob or beat up or rape or kill someone it s very clear to anyone not a sociopath that i ve done something immoral on the other hand if i smoke grass or have sex with a consenting adult in a manner illegal in that state the morality or immorality of that act is merely a lifestyle choice it doesn t clearly hurt anyone else imo if such an act doesn t hurt another person it should not be interfered with think about it shouldn t all drugs then be legalized it would lower the cost and definitely make them safer to use i think so and i don t use drugs outside of the legal ones alcohol and coffee don
talk.politics.misc	polls was re top ten excuses for slick willie s record setting disapproval rati in article emoryu cc emory edu libwca emory edu bill anderson writes according to a cnn poll to key reason for clinton s low approval rating is people are angry about him not moving fast enough on gays in the military i just burst out laughing when i heard this what planet do these cnn people live on anyway jason c austin j c austin larc nasa gov dunno man that sounds pretty damned unlikely to me too although it s certainly one of the reasons i m pissed off at him maybe the sample was taken entirely from my fellow memebers of the cultural elite jason can you quote some of these poll questions thanks bill v i ve never seen cnn give out the poll questions on the air if you sent them a letter asking for them you might get them here s my guess of how part of a session might look question do you approve of clinton s performance answer no questions do you disapprove due to the gays in the military issue answer yes conclusion clinton has a low approval rating because he s not moving fast enough on gays in the military i think any group truly dedicated to reporting the news would not use manufactured news like polls jason
talk.politics.misc	re stop the sexularhumanistoppression former my beloved damn ferigner s be taken over in article apr reg triumf ca vincent reg triumf ca pete writes in article c hwa ebp news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu brent irvine writes or fight was about a territorial dispute with british canada again old stuff uh not quite the boundary dispute is still unresolved and canadian and us coast guard vessels regularly if infrequently detain each other s fish boats in the disputed waters off dixon entrance the only reason you don t hear more about it is that it s in neither country s interest to aggravate the quarrel that doesn t mean that either country is prepared to back down especially the local political representatives whose constituents are all fishermen fishing rights are disputed between nations no matter how friendly there is always fishing disputes what i was getting at was the or fight slogan is old stuff dealing with the land dispute no one is saying or fight about fishing rights the territorial dispute about the oregon territory we called it is long resolved fishing rights small potatoes personal opinions why brent irvine yes what did you think irvine uxh cso uiuc edu they were
talk.politics.misc	the state of justice a judge denied gm s new trial motion even though gm says it has two new witnesses that said the occupant of the truck was dead from the impact not from the fire thoughts it s kind of scary when you realize that judges are going to start denying new trials even when new evidence that contradicts the facts that led to the previous ruling appear or has the judge decided that the new witnesses are not to be believed shouldn t that be up to a jury and what about members of the previous jury parading through the talk shows proclaiming their obvious bias against gm shouldn t that be enough for a judge to through out the old verdict and call for a new trial whatever happened to jurors having to be objective brett there s nothing so passionate as a vested interest disguised as an intellectual conviction sean o casey in the white plague by frank herbert
talk.politics.misc	re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in article c ij h l news iastate edu jrbeach iastate edu jeffry r beach writes in article apr gordian com mike gordian com michael a thomas writes in article c huh news iastate edu jrbeach iastate edu jeffry r beach writes in article qd sninnr elroy jpl nasa gov fogarty sir c jpl nasa gov tim fogarty writes i would be upset that although abortions would continue they would be a lot more expensive for the rich and a lot less safe for the poor so now things are supposed to be legal just to keep their cost down and the safety factor high think about it shouldn t all drugs then be legalized it would lower the cost and definitely make them safer to use yes i don t think we want to start using these criterion to determine legality why not where do they get these people i really don t want to waste time in here to do battle about the legalization of drugs if you really want to we can get into it and prove just how idiotic that idea is go for it i have yet to see anybody justify the prohibition on drugs and the ensuing war on drugs in the world of politics here on usenet it is you that is crazy anybody who gives the matter any thought beyond reading headlines cannot justify this atrocity this all out war on individual rights just try to justify the war on drugs i dare you my point was that it is pretty stupid to justify legalizing something just because it will be safer and cheaper once again in chorus why is this stupid a few more ideas to hold to these criterion prostitution the killing of all funny farm patients aids victims elderly unemployed prisioners etc this would surely make my taxes decrease the above paragraph is gibberish that all i can make of it steve thomas steveth rossinc com
talk.politics.misc	re nc vs hunt marine gay bashing in wilmington nc verdict in article c hfr cpa ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com mark wilson writes so you feel that the defendents should have been convicted regardless of the evidence now that would truely be a sad day for civil rights i don t know about everybody else but to me they should have been convicted because of the evidence which in my mind was quite sufficient tom
talk.politics.misc	re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes in article slagle apr sgi msd lmsc lockheed com slagle lmsc lockheed com writes it is the government that is preventing entry to the market the desire of those running established businesses to prevent or restrict the entry of competitors is an understandable though generally unpleasant human failing but without a means to act on this desire without a government with sufficient power to restrict the options of the potential competitor the anti competitive desire remains just an unpleasant wish the government is the linchpin so we seek to disengage it so we don t get the shaft once again mark you don t specify the means through which the government is to be prevented from becoming the tool of business interests as a left wing big government conventional liberal i m just as willing as you are to vote against anti competitive regulations that favor auto dealers but what i hear from libertarians is a desire to limit incumbents terms to weaken government by eliminating its power to enforce antitrust laws and a desire to eliminate legislator s pay each strikes me as a particularly ineffective way to insure that auto dealers and other special interests cannot influence public policy in fact they seem clearly designed to accomplish the opposite this is similar to my saying that clinton s timber summit does little to fix the health care problem look at the whole picture not just randomly picked libertarian positions if government is not allowed to use non initiated force to achieve its goals than no special interest can influence the government to use non initiated force on their behalf the means to reaching such a restricted government is another topic which i ll address briefly it certainly won t happen until libertarianism is the dominate philosophy what means do we have to make libertarianism the dominate philosophy statists run the education monopoly so we have to be creative the advocates for self government reports of their seminar participants embrace libertarianism that s the best means i ve seen yet we should lobby for compulsory seminar attendance in jest roger collins it s amazing to me that governments around the world will try every aspect of government control before as a final last resort after everything else fails they will try individual liberty andre marrou libertarian candidate for president
talk.politics.misc	re national sales tax the movie atboyken iastate edu aaron t boyken writes here s a question what if instead of a true vat the federal government imposed a sales tax of say the tax would only be paid on retail sales thus not building up at all levels of production costs that are just passed on to consumers anyway and would only go to reducing the deficit i know that this would never happen but it seems a lot more palettable than a vat canada s gst is collected as a sales tax and is considered a vat funnily the previous hidden wholesale tax that it replaces was never referred to as a tax or people never paid mind to it thus the uproar when it was brought up front as the gst one party has actually campaigned on hiding the tax again the stated intent of the tories was to use the gst to write down our deficit unfortunately their legislation didn t include any mechanism for disbursing the collected funds in such a manner and the money is now sitting in escrow i don t know what is involved in releasing the funds but one dilemna is that the tories are not fiscal conservatives themselves though while taxing and spending they ve made moves to apply the breaks to a runaway locomotive by the end of this time the end of their second term years while they do have chances of getting a third term catching up in the polls to their more moderate slightly leftish pro business rivals the liberals as in euro uk the tories heir apparent for the leaders mantle has been termed a clone of hillary clinton gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
talk.politics.misc	re representation of territories was re the lunch in article cmi b w w keys lonestar org cwinemil keys lonestar org chris winemiller writes does anyone have knowledge about how this was handled in the past such as with the louisiana territory or the northwest territory those areas became states puerto rico has the population needed to become a state but the ethnic mix there is such that puerto rico will probably never become a state i say we cut them loose if they don t want to become a state we shouldn t continue to subsidize their existence john f haugh ii pgp s cs utexas edu rpp jfh ma bell dof s jfh rpp cactus org look up ponzi scheme in a good dictionary it will have a picture of joe liberal handout right next to it stop federal spending cut the deficit
talk.politics.misc	re pro abortion feminist leader endorses trashing of free speech rights in article c mmep n panix com gcf panix com gordon fitch writes dsh eceyv ncsu edu doug holtsinger writes arrested for defying judge s order at abortion protest rally the miami herald april circuit judge robert mcgregor s order prohibits anti abortion pickets within feet of the property line of aware woman center for choice even across the street they may not display pictures of dead fetuses or sing or chant loud enough to be heard by patients inside the clinic several years ago justice william o douglas who was about as libertarian as you can get about free speech and similar issues wrote a majority opinion in which the supreme court turned down an appeal by a group of people who had been prohibited from demonstrating in front of their landlord s home do you have a cite for the case you don t give enough information to be able to compare the two situations if the demonstrators had been blaring loud rock music into the landlord s home all day and night then i could see how the opinion would be justified but this court order had prohibited abortion protesters from displaying pictures of dead fetuses which doesn t disrupt the privacy of anyone inside the clinic he pointed out that people have a right to be free from speech perhaps in the privacy of their homes but not on public property did the korean grocery store owner in new york city have a right to be free from the speech of the protesters outside his store patrons inside the store could hear the protesters asking them to re consider shopping there how is that different from the abortion protesters asking women to re consider getting an abortion at a clinic harassment goes beyond expression to direct attack on particular persons in this case the workers and clients at a clinic its purpose is clearly not to convey information or express an opinion but to intimidate and do harm to other others even if the protesters speech could be considered harassment which it is not hate speech laws have generally been struck down by the courts i don t see how the words don t kill your baby or abortion is murder could be considered harassment anti abortionists have lost the battle for public opinion and the more psychopathic among them have turned to harassment arson bombing and murder to carry on their war there is no reason not to restrain them to protect the ordinary civil rights of everyone else some of the protesters were arrested for simply praying quietly on a public sidewalk yeah i could see how that might be equivalent to bombing and murder uh huh let us know when you get a grip on reality gordon fitch gcf panix com blg grn sta ny ny doug holtsinger
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article apr romulus rutgers edu kaldis romulu rutgers edu theodore a kaldis writes join the pythagorean reform church repent of your evil irrational numbers and bean eating ways accept into your heart call the pythagorean reform church bbs at the above smacks of antihispanic bigotry really what if it said lentil eating or legume eating what then and i suppose accept is anti octal bigotry geez how pc can you get uncle fester what god wants god wants gigolos god gets god wants giraffes god help us all god wants politics thester nyx cs du edu god wants a good laugh
talk.politics.misc	re top ten signs that it s the age of aquarius on pennsylvania avenue in article ql tuinn j minerva cis yale edu chaudhary amar yale edu amar chaudhary writes hey i think the beaded curtains add a lovely s esque touch aaaaaaaaaaaa run run for your lives look canada europe and japan manage to provide health care for their citizens and yes basic health is a human right which people are entitled to if these nations aren t capitalist enough for you then i guess we ve found something better than capitalism there is nothing sacred about the capitalist system and if something be it socialism or anything else works better then i say let capitalism die then why are they in the process of systematically dismantling some of their socialistic health care systems through privitization of key components make love not war if i hold a gun to your wife would you respond the same way i don t think so while the age of aquarius may have hit the white house the age of peace love and harmony hasn t hit in south central la nor has it hit in former yugoslavia and as long as there are people in the world who would rather see me dead than thrive i want the protection of a police force who will keep the peace so i can make love without being shot contrary to popular belief it is possible to be a male and a feminist at the same time to discriminate against or to deny equal opportunity to a majority of the population is just plain wrong and trying to force them into some sort of tradition role is even worse women certainly have as much to offer this world as men and the day that gender discrimination is finally broken it going to make all the revolutions of the past few centuries seem like reform bills i look forward to it the ultimate statement for equal rights something many of the feminazis have forgotten is i do not care if you are either a man or a woman i do not care if you are black or white i do not care if you are gay or straight once you can honistly say i do not care about color race or gender or sexual preference then we will truly be on the right track keep shoving differences in my face and then expect us all to get along get real so long as you try to make me care if you are black female or whatever i am going to continue to balk it s natural human behaviour but the moment employers searching for employees banks looking to lend money and theclinton administration looking for appointees can honistly say i do not care about your color race gender or sexual preferences i instend instead to treat you as a human being crap like last year s riots will continue to happen hey man acadamia rules barf you mean the same economic theorists who say things like for the sake of convenience in mathematical modeling we will first assume there is no wealth creation now get a crack at implementing their phd thesis in real life go back to your textbooks on macroeconomic theory look in the first chapter of that book introducing the field of macroeconomic theory right there in chapter section is a statement like the following as it is difficult to predict and model wealth creation especially in an economy where wealth creation is inherently the province of individuals who create new inventions and discover new ideas we will assume for the rest of this book that there is no wealth creation we do not assume the lack of weath creation in the real world however the mathematical modeling of such an inherently unpredictable subject is impossible even though we assume no wealth creation we do believe that for most mathematical economic modeling such an assumption is reasonably valid as it allows us to make predictions which then can be tested so the guys who are running the store for clinton and company are now assuming that wealth creation does not exists they are borrowing an idea from the hitchhiker s guide too advanced to think of these simple things to be honist i would rather have an engineer with years of experience building bridges design the next bridge rather than a theoretical physicists with a freshly minted phd and no experience do the same job bill woody normally i don t post or even read most of the postings in this newsgroup if you would like to reply to this message and want me to see the reply then i guess you will just have to reply directly to me
talk.politics.misc	re a rational viewpoint was re new study out on gay percentage in article qn cinnabv darkstar ucsc edu stephen orchid ucsc edu writes it is very difficult for a young person to develop and build a positive view of themself when they are constantly being told implicitly and explicitly that they are wrong and immoral yes that is most certainly true however the paragrapgh reflects a value less position and infers that what is more important than anything else is to have a positive view of one s self this of course is foolish should a mass murderer a pedophile a year old pyromaniac have a positive view of themselves of course not a person that engages in behaviour that a large number of people condemn and if you believe in the concept of society then your only choice is to expect that person to have a negative view of themselves there are actually people that still believe love canal was some kind of environmental disaster weird eh these opinions are mine and you can t have em but i ll rent em cheap
talk.politics.misc	re getting off to an early start patrick townson ptownson eecs nwu edu writes so the jury will be making its announcement at am saturday morning pacific time am eastern time why such an ungodly hour maybe by making the announcement at am on the west coast they figure all the rioters will be asleep giving the troops time to move into place since the actual verdicts were not known by the authorities it was smart not to allow friday night for fighting sorry elton and to seal them for this morning also it allows for maximum daylight to wear down and frustrate any potential troublemakers as well as give more preparation time i guess we can look forward to a weekend of rioting eh are you a local news intern the mayor of los angeles in a press conference about am saturday morning actually that was pm cos it was shown live on our pm news and cut into cnn s o clock sports sorry but i didn t watch the devils islanders game no sportschannel meanwhile following the announcement of the jury s verdict the judge jury and assorted court personnel will be evacuated from the building via helicopters landing on the roof of the courthouse they can t even walk out through the front door with their heads held high we had cutovers to la s knbc on our wnbc and i didn t recall this detail but i ll not comment further on that won t the rioters have a surprise waiting for them when they wake up later today a net contact in l a tells me that the alert will remain over this weekend as some elements may find excuse over the not guilty verdicts on three of five charges the aiding and abetting those acquittals seem to balance out the fact that rodney king himself was not any kind of angel that night speeding and fleeing et al however another consideration is any street celebrations over the two convictions on the excessive force charges koons for incompetance and powell for overreacting both guilty as heck even from the view of nypd cops interviewed that might get out of hand also some elements may take the acquittals as an excuse to challenge the cops a dumb move obviously and koreans are still scared and certain people are really mad over how they have armed themselves in the last year a commander from nassau long island was questioned about how his people would have handled rodney king and he said we d have let him roll around in the dirt til he got tired then handcuff him gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
talk.politics.misc	re temper tantrums from the s in article apr pony ingres com garrett ingres com writes i see you are a total ignorant asshole as well it s the sign of a small mind to use filthy language when he can t articulate his point oh no not in this case i ve noticed that you conveniently edited out your stupid comment that the prc stands for cambodia when we re arguing the vietnam war and about cambodia and you toss in a boner like that along with your other boners you are an ignorant asshole oh and even the vietnamese agree that they did far more damage to cambodia than we ever did there are actually people that still believe love canal was some kind of environmental disaster weird eh these opinions are mine and you can t have em but i ll rent em cheap
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article apr news cs brandeis edu st pip cc brandeis edu writes it seems that conservatives are putting a lot of effort into showing up the figure but that really doesn t make a difference like i said who cares how many there are would the fact that they re only of the population justify discrimination against them i don t think so uh well golly gee whiz let me see when the new president as his first big policy act tries to force homosexuals acceptance thereof on the military despite polls showing a consistent against it and the minority is only well gee i sure think that is newsworthy tells you something about the fascist politics being practiced there are actually people that still believe love canal was some kind of environmental disaster weird eh these opinions are mine and you can t have em but i ll rent em cheap
talk.politics.misc	re mr cramer s evidence in article apr sun urz uni heidelberg de gsmith lauren iwr uni heidelberg de gene w smith writes in article philc lsd ms netcom com phil netcom com phil ronzone writes libertarians want the state out of our lives nambla members want to fuck little boys now do you get it i see libertarians want to have the right to fuck little children of either sex and want to make sure everyone else has this right too nambla just wants to have the right to fuck little boys or are you just a secret member of nambla you re the one who suddenly seems to be defending the right to fuck children how many little girls have you raped today phil if wanting to abolish the age of consent is not repectable it is not respectable for anyone hmm you still don t get it then again i m not posting from a university where the hue and cry was raised against jewish physics tell me committed any anti semitic acts today what kind of boots do you wear and still libertarians want the state out of their lives parents are very capable of protecting their children against the predations of pedophiles which btw you still haven t disassociated yourself from are you or are you not a member of nambla there are actually people that still believe love canal was some kind of environmental disaster weird eh these opinions are mine and you can t have em but i ll rent em cheap
talk.politics.misc	re national sales tax the movie in article c m f geb news iastate edu atboyken iastate edu aaron t boyken writes if the vat will be done in the same way that state and local sales taxes are done nothing will be on the sticker the cleark ringing up your purchase gum gas car etc will hit a button to add another on top of the state and local sales taxes and that won t include any of the vat from previous levels of sales there is no need to include the vat from previous levels because the vat is a difference tax if the vat is x than the amount of tax the government receives through all the levels is x of the purchase price of the end consumer at the intervening levels only the difference between the vat paid out and the vat received is remitted to the government here s a question what if instead of a true vat the federal government imposed a sales tax of say the tax would only be paid on retail sales thus not building up at all levels of production costs that are just passed on to consumers anyway and would only go to reducing the deficit i know that this would never happen but it seems a lot more palettable than a vat a vat is infinitely preferable to a retail sails tax gerald
talk.politics.misc	re billaryklintonkligue illegal war the operation going on in somalia is a peacekeeping peaceenforcement operation where force may be used it is not a war it is also legal under international law which is higher than us law the operation is occuring under the ageis of the united nations can t get a higher authority than that on this earth
talk.politics.misc	re karadzic on bosnia peace plan what does anyone think that judge wopner would do if karadzic was on trial before him nevah happen but just a thought
talk.politics.misc	re most recent u n members czech republic republic of slovakia they were admitted early this year liechenstein was also recently admitted also san marino both within the last months incredible what passes for a nation sta state nowadays
talk.politics.misc	united nations gettin busy chapter operation in somlia almost chapter in cambodia and yugo bout time the un started using force to make the peace happen hopefully they will soon be doing the same with world economics
talk.politics.misc	model united nations just observed at the national model united nations here in nyc just one word on it awsome peace matt
talk.politics.misc	kyle k on rodney king in article c lp y fdk news cso uiuc edu kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu koppenhoefer kyle cramm writes how about the fact that you have a bunch of cops putting their lives on the line day in and day out who are afraid as hell of a large black guy that took a large amount of punishment and refused submit i m curious why you think that particular adjective is important ted frank thf kimbark uchicago edu i m sorry the card says moops the u of c law school standard disclaimers
talk.politics.misc	the lessons of the nazis re david irving scholastic fraud in responding to the post below i have considered issues far outside the scope of revisionism and principally have considered the political implications of a racist ideology and its inevitable outcome thus it is tangentially relevant to soc history and alt revisionism but i have directed followups to t p m since it is principally consideration of the political lessons to be drawn from the history of the nazi party that i deal with in article apr oneb almanac bc ca kmcvay oneb almanac bc ca ken mcvay writes as dawidowicz points out in the holocaust and the historians harvard university press the nadir in hitlerology is reached by david irving s hitler s war an amateur historian whose reputation as a german apologist and as a writer without regard for accuracy or truth won him a measure of notoriety irving produced a page work intended to show that hitler was kind to his animals and to his secretaries that he was probably the weakest leader germany has known in this century and that he did not murder the jews or even wish to do so but that the murder was committed behind his back without his knowledge or consent let us assume for the sake of argument that this was indeed the case does this mean that hilter would have been in any way less guilty of mass murder because he aquiesced rather than participated as an active and ardent supporter one of the important things to realise about the nazis is that the system was far more evil than any single member once created the nazi party itself was a murder machine that would inevitably commit genocide there was noone within it strong enough to prevent it remember that hitler did not originaly lead the nazi party nor was he particularly powerful within it until his oratory allowed the party to come to power had hitler reneged upon the emotiaonal expectations which he had created within the ranks of his supporters he would have been replaced as he had himself replaced the old guard who he beleived were unable to grasp the intellectual implications of their rhetoric this is why all parties that espouse nazi style race supremacy ideologies must be considered as dangerous and as evil as the nazis the idea that one race of people is inherently superior to another and that the greatest goal of humanity is to achieve racial perfection has only one logical outcome the gas chambers of auschwitz the nazi party is not simply the tale of a supremely evil single man who lead an entire country astray beyond the evil of individuals there was the evil of the system itself which was self generating and self perpetuating hitler was an extreemly evil person who built his party arround an ego cult centered on the demonstration of his own power this does not however mean that he was as entirely free from political constraints as he and his propagandists worked so hard to assert the myth that racism can produce a strong government that can cure a nations ills must be emphatically rejected in the same way we must accept a distinction between a govenrment that demonstrates its strength and one that is able to govern decisively in the manner it beleives is best i would accept only the latter as a strong government since most displays of strength are made necessary by an essential weakness it is important to understand that the nazis were not stupid nor were they amoral in the sense that they lacked moral scruples they acted in the same manner as the spanish inquisition murder and torture in the cause of morality the fault of the nazis lies in their axioms not in their logic nor in their implementation of those axioms thus all such parties such as the national front or david dukes klu klux klan front who assert the truth of those axioms must be considered for what they are advocates of a system that would commit genocide the conclusion that hitler was not only responsible but imensely evil is inescapable from the historical record it is important though to not let the conclusion be reached that the nazis espoused a set of ideas that were basically correct but had an unfortunate proponent the evils of the concept of race supremacy are primary although this most emphaticaly does not excuse individual culpability this is nevertheless secondary no matter what the promises made by a racist supremacist party upon election those promises will be broken as soon as circumstances permit if this requires the replacement of the leaders that originally made the pledges that will occur hatred is a supreme justifier it also creates a dynamic of its own when those in government allow it reign for many in government politics is a method of providing a justification for their own existence through a demonstration of their importance a rhetoric of hatred inevitably develops the question of action since the continued existence of an object of hatred is inevitably a reminder of the essential impotence of the politician thus we have the us raid on tripoli which has little purpose beyond a demonstration of power it is important to realise that there is no quantum jump between the politics of the right and those of the extreeme right but a progression from the reinforcement of popular predjudice to action being taken on the basis of that predjudice in the same way the extreeme left trace their route to despotism through their assertion of the subjugation of the individual to ideology it is important though that in attempting to understand the dynamics of political systems that this is not used to excuse the participants the leaders of a nation take on a supreme moral burden but not only do so voluntarily are required to stive to do so thus to take on such a task without a fundamental examination of the logical progression of ones set of axioms to its conclusion in itself is a moral crime furthermore in taking on such a duty one is obliged to put the interest of the whole before personal concerns even of personal security although it was inevitable that a party such as the nazis based upon hatred and an idolisation of the symbols of power should have saught to commit genocide it was not inevitable that they should succeeded each member of the system had an ability to create a change within it that had a possibility of changing the dynamic realising that the individual cannot hope to control a system does not mean accepting that the individual cannot affect the system phill hallam baker phill hallam baker
talk.politics.misc	turkish preisident turgut ozal passed away turkish president turgur ozal has passed away today after a heart attack in ankara at am gmt mr ozal was years old bahadir acuner acunerbb csugrad cs vt edu
talk.politics.misc	re swimming pool defense in article dasmith husc harvard edu dasmith husc harvard edu david smith writes granted the simple fact of holding down a job will improve these kids chances of getting another job in the future but what inner city kid would want to hold down just one more minimum wage job when there is so much more money to be made dealing drugs what suburban kid would want to hold down a minimum wage job when there is so much more money to be made dealing drugs yet somehow surburban kids do hold down minimum wage jobs so do inner city kids when give the chance any reason you think that inner city kids are incapable of doing legitimate work ted frank thf kimbark uchicago edu i m sorry the card says moops the u of c law school standard disclaimers
talk.politics.misc	re getting off to an early start in article b eecs nwu edu ptownson ptownson eecs nwu edu writes so the jury will be making its announcement at am saturday morning pacific time am eastern time why such an ungodly hour i guess its because the news is not what the government wanted to hear either the police officers have been found innocent or after a week the jury is hung neither good news from the government s point of view as they desparately needed some scapegoats in los angeles wrong on both accounts maybe by making the announcement at am on the west coast they figure all the rioters will be asleep giving the troops time to move into place no one is a rioter until they participate in a riot which is unlikely to happen now most of the people in l a are likely to have gotten up early to listen to the court announcement i guess we can look forward to a weekend of rioting eh sorry to disappoint you but this seems unlikely the mayor of los angeles in a press conference about am saturday morning in announcing that the jury would give its verdict later this morning just an hour away as i write this would not say what that verdict is but i think he was told in his press conference he said anyone rioting will be stopped dead in their tracks i don t think he was told however his statement was still appropriate meanwhile following the announcement of the jury s verdict the judge jury and assorted court personnel will be evacuated from the building via helicopters landing on the roof of the courthouse they can t even walk out through the front door with their heads held high jury duty is a solemn duty to be taken seriously it is not meant to be a source of pride or instant fame won t the rioters have a surprise waiting for them when they wake up later today well the many people who got up early to go to the court to hear the verdict found that justice was served given your dire and cynical predictions i imagine that it is you who will be surprised patrick townson
talk.politics.misc	re why not concentrate on child molesters in article optilink com walsh optilink com mark walsh writes there is a big difference between running one s business affairs and actively ripping people off and charging homosexuals more becuase people think that aids is a gay disease is actively ripping people off greg hennessy university of virginia usps mail astronomy department charlottesville va usa internet gsh w virginia edu uucp uunet virginia gsh w
talk.politics.misc	re why not concentrate on child molesters in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes that describes some straights and nearly all homosexual males can you provide any evidence that doesn t ahve massive selection effects no i thought not just slander on your part greg hennessy university of virginia usps mail astronomy department charlottesville va usa internet gsh w virginia edu uucp uunet virginia gsh w
talk.politics.misc	re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in article c l rp ebm news iastate edu jrbeach iastate edu jeffry r beach writes in article apr gordian com mike gordian com michael a thomas writes from a pragmatic standpoint there certainly is some justification if it is a vice people will commit anyway shall we criminalize alcohol again if the re legalization for alcohol were done from making you look bad is too damn easy the vast social and historical differences between alcohol and other drugs make this comparison worthless this meaningless statement makes you look bad
talk.politics.misc	re the role of the national news media in inflaming passions theodore a kaldis writes ah i know women who wear miniskirts without wearing underwear and they are not prostitutes no i suppose they must be sluts nope they both are very nice women whom i m good friends with or do you think its ok to rape anyone when you don t like the way they dress gee both clayton and kaldis engaging in ad hominem arguments where calling someone names as you did are you ignorant of what an ad hominem argument is you provided absolutely no evidence chump i provided a quote from the judge what else do you want greg hennessy university of virginia usps mail astronomy department charlottesville va usa internet gsh w virginia edu uucp uunet virginia gsh w
talk.politics.misc	re my gun is like my american express car in article apr grace rt cs boeing com rwojcik atc boeing com richard wojcik writes in article misty john anasazi com john r moore writes papresco undergrad math uwaterloo ca paul prescod writes i m not i m in canada we have far fewer shootings like this we have had i believe one mass murder in the last twenty years i m not going to say we don t have our gun problems but we do have the world s largest undefended boarder with one of the most gun happy countries in the world i think canada illustrates that gun control does have an effect in fact it s suprising that there is any difference considering how easy it is to smuggle a gun from the u s yes it s amazing isn t it in fact it should tell you that gun control is not the reason your crime rate is low since any idiot can smuggle guns into canada from the us at any time i think paul was trying to make the point that any idiot doesn t there are surely some idiots who do smuggle guns but paul seems to feel that the exis tence of stricter gun control laws has had a deterrent effect this seems a strange argument to make considering that canada s violent crime rate in general is far lower than that of the u s our non gun crime rate is greater than their entire crime rate it would seem strange to suggest that it to were the result of gun control laws i think if we looked we d find very specific cultural and enforcement reasons why the non gun rate is low as well and then that reasons could be applied to the with gun rates as easily given that most criminally used guns are either legally purchased or stolen from those who purchase them legally having more restrictions on legal possession does seem to have the effect of reducing gun related crimes aside from the fact that i find the idea of being punished because somebody might steal something from me and go and commit a crime with it a silly solution it still doesn t address the question of canada which is now by the way blaming their rising gun crime rate on the u s strange that the border used to magically keep the guns out but now isn t it certainly makes sense that it would well it makes sense to some of us anyway the other side of the coin of course is that far illegal drugs are purchases legally or stolen from people who purchase them legally i ve still not been convinced that guns a commodity which criminals have shown their perfectly willing to pay for from illegal sources stolen either from police military or civilian we wouldn t simply see south american sources from which drugs come start smuggling guns as well since there s a thriving gun manufacturing industry down there if you would just look a little closer at the crime statistics you would realize that our non gun crime rate is also very high so guns per se are not the issue directly contradicted by the nejm study that compared crime in seattle and vancouver b c the non gun rates were roughly the same for both cities the difference in violent crime rates was almost totally gun related and as was not pointed out in the study but in critiques of it two seperate articles by james wright and david kopel come to mind it was pointed out that the difference was also almost entirely minority related that is the gun crime rate skyrocketed for poor minorities blacks and hispanics primarily while when you compared the white majority they were virutally identical the problem with the nejm study was they compared minority vs non minority percentages but failed to take into account the relative conditions of those minorities that there was an eqaul percentage of nomn whites was about as far as they went they failed to take into account that the non whites in either city were not living in the same conditions if the situation was entirely based on availability of guns then we d expect that the white rates the two groups which are arguably fairly comparative in the two cities would have a far higher rate in seattle yet the majority in seattle is not only not significantly higher when the minorities are excluded but slightly lower violent crime is highly concentrated in the inner city surprise pick the area with the highest incidence of poverty drug use disease etc since rates are lower in suburbia us middle class folks can ignore the problem the point is of course that many of the u s inner city problems are not mirrored in canada as such if there is a condition which is significantly different in canada from the u s and violent crime is highly correlated to that area suggesting that gun control is the source of canada s low rate is highly questionable as one canadian pointed out on talk politics guns canada s major gun control in did not result in either a reduction or a slowing of an increase in violent crime rates which have been rising steadily since apparently they didn t even mirror the u s s very large drop of violent crime in the early eighties most violent crime occurs in areas with strict gun control already post hoc ergo propter hoc those areas implemented gun control because of the high rates true only to a certain extent take washington d c where gun control was instituted while it had crime problems true but that crime proceeded to explode afterwards similarly for new york the question is not simply a point in time where crime was high or low did the gun control significantly and positively impact violent crime since it s gone up in those areas often faster than it was going up before you can t simply dismiss the high crime rate by saying gun control was caused by it yes gun control may be instituted to deal with high crime but if the crime is not positively impacted you can t continually say that that crime rate was entirely a cause of that gun control since much of that crime rate increased after gun control was implemented just as happened in canada similar or worse rates exist in cities with poor gun control as would be expected if violent crime was generally independent of gun control and the jury is still out on the question of whether recent tough laws in washington d c may have alleviated violence and suicide rates there would this be the laws which made manufacturers liable for what others did with their guns and suddenly the police found nobody would sell to them david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
talk.politics.misc	re re fillibuster in article c n wh izv dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker writes in article apr martha utcc utk edu pa utkvm utk edu david veal writes in article c jpl cz dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker writes in article apr martha utcc utk edu pa utkvm utk edu david veal writes well yes and no the federalist papers are propaganda and it is therefore difficult to determine precisely what maddison etc were up to from them there are a couple of ways to look at them one is we want you to support this constitution so we ll say anything that we think will appeal to you or the more straightforward this is why we think what we ve suggested in this constitution is a good idea you clearly consider the former to be the primary situation the point is that they did not make pains to point out where the consitution may have been aginst the new yorker s interests also they did not want to raise opposition by basing their advocacy on unpopular principles horrors appealing to popular principles can we perhaps as the question of whether the constitution might have been written to appeal to the principles rather than as you appear to believe it was written with something else in mind and propoganda put out by its supporters but let s be honest about something here when was the last time you brought up all the valid points against your own arguments or are they simply propogranda we can t know what phill really means because he s obviously using arguments designed to convince well i know hamilton was a dyed in the wool monarchist and probably the authoritarian extreme to jefferson s democratic impules but what would you suggest as a means of determining their opinions on the government if we don t consider what they wrote about the government i don t propose that any means exists for determining their true opinions thus their true opinions died with them and are of little help today their opinions have not the slightest bearing on the matter though only their arguments these are true or false regardless of who said them or why if they re true or false regardles of why they were said why on earth did you make a point of calling them propogranda that would seem to be irrelevent the difficulty that most us posters seem to have is in considering that their arguments may have been flawed or no longer apply to modern societies oh i have no argument with questioning them i don t believe they no longer apply but that s because i think most of them were good arguments i m not entirely happy about the situation because they were obviously only applied to a minority of the time but i don t think that alone is sufficient to invalidate them if they were alive today the one opinion we could count upon these men to express is that a careful study of the mechanisms of government is necessary and that an ongoing improvement of the same is required they gave their opinions in certain areas and have been proved right in other areas they got it wrong they ensured that there was a mechanism to adapt and improve the consititution this can only happen if there is a willingness to accept that the structural problems within the us political system may require constitutional change as a solution since the u s constitution is the basis for the u s political system most changes in it would require constitutional change in this particular case however the fillibuster is a matter of procedure and tradition it only should have been made part of the constitution if the senate was less powerful than the house of lords than we d almost have to state that the house of representatives was also in fact they both were because the british government had much greater power than did the american system in principle no in practice yes in principle no that they had less power of that they should have had less power the british government today is theoreticaly dependent on the will of the monarch by convention any monarch seeking to exercise that power is deposed the subtly is that the prime minister is not able to identify their politics with the national interest in the same manner that us presidents regularly do phill we re discusing the power of legislative houses while the prime minister is member of parliament he is more analgous although badly to the u s president now please explain to me how the u s house of representatives is in principle more powerful than the house of lords or the senate but in practice is less are you suggesting that the writers of the constitution really intended for them to be more powerful but gosh darn the thing was ratified before they realized they d forgotten to put those extra restrictions on the senate in i disagree the system is not too slow it was simply designed to handle less than it has demanded that it handle as somebody in washington put it whose name i forget congress has become everybody s city council one reason for that is that at every level the government is rendered unable to come to decisions these decisions are pushed up to the next higher level instead not at all as any entry level political science course will tell you people who want laws implemented will always choose the level of government to attack which presents them with the best chance of getting what they want with national interest groups it is simply a very rational thing to do to want the federal government to enact a law rather than the states less people to persuade and less contributions to make why do those concerned about abortion primarily concentrate at the federal level simply because if they win that battle all the little state battlefields are won by extension the same extends to insurance medicine and most other questions local government has not failed in that it hasn t done what it should but that it is dominated by local interests thus non local interests who want localities to abide by their rules can t get their rules past the local government thus since they ve got more clout only in the wrong place they appeal to the next higher level because it can impose its will on the lower i mean let s get real here do we really need the congres of the united states deciding that x traffice light should be on thus and such pattern or that carjacking needs to be a federal as opposed to a local crime the more people want the more congress will take power to sell it to them for their votes i don t think the rise of special interests is coincidence with the increased power of congress congress is more than capable of quick action and has more than enough power and time on its hands if it confined itself to what its original jurisidiction was and allowed more local autonomy if they were to start from a social welfare model instead of the current no state subsidy motto they would be better placed as it is there is plenty of state money being handed out the problem is that it is distributed on the basis of power in congress and not on the basis of actual need bingo the higher up the governmental ladder the less actual need matters because political power can be concentrated at higher levels while people with less cloud only find themselves reduced to in effectiveness in order to set up a school project in new york state you have to pay off the other states with pork defense contracts agricultural subsidies etc or to be precise of the states since you need to beat the filibuster then why not simply leave new york s education to new york i remain unconcinved that there is any state in the union which is not capable of educating its own children if that s what they want to do and if you leave it to them you only have to worry about the pork in that state and since industries can t concentrate their political power and wealth rather they must divide it among the states to try and get what they want individual voices have more relative impact the problem with the fillibuster is not that you must buy off states but that the congress has acquired too much power to sell pork it is not a case of the system of government they created failing but that it is operating under a set of conditions they specifically wanted to avoid namely a concentration of power it would seem then that the proper thing to do is not to reduce the power of either house in some attempt to grease the wheels all you ll get then is a system which moves quicker to do stupid things it would make more sense to make more decisions at a local level no you have to break the machine free of seizure before you can redirect it but why on earth should we want to redirect it you said yourself that you have to sell pork to get things through congress if congres has less authority to sell pork and retains its authority to enact national legislation within its granted jurisdiction the pork problem is significantly reduced the current blocks on power simply absolve congress of any responsibility to come to a decision the current blocks essentially state that inaction is preferable to action thus it the system is weighted against action considering the government the usually the institution with the sole power to enforce its decisions by force i consider bias against making those decisions a good thing pushing the decisions lower in the pyramid won t work unless the lower levels are less corrupt in most cases they are worse not better the difference with the lower pyramid is that a they have more legal legitimate authority in most matters under our constitution than the federal government and b at those lower levels power is harder to concentrate and c you get the benefit of not imposing new deicisons on everybody at once you get to see them tried out without a national decision congressional action usually treats the entire country as a whole yet even with similar problems in different areas different solutions may be called for and while i often don t agree with the decisions my local and state reps make at least i have a better option of going to the city council and shooting my mouth off i d much rather the majority of laws be made by accessible people who hang around and end up having to put up with them rather than somebody far off in washington with half a million or more constituents i m curious what you base your assumption that lower levels are more corrupt i fail to see where any restrictions implied or otherwise were placed on the veto it could just as easily have been read as a means to put a check on democratically popular but unwise in the executive s opinion policies since we were arguing from the federalist papers i would point to them phill you brought up the federalist papers we were arguing the fillibuster and whether or not a minority of senators should be allowed to hold up a bill you claimed the senate was suppose to be a far less powerful house and i contended there was nothing in the constitution or other writings which indicated this which was when you brought up that we can t decide what the founders wanted based on the federalist papers you argued against them i never argued from them i have primarily referred to the constitution which places only very small restrictions on the senate than for the house the us constitution gives almost no reasoning as to how it should work the only part where a reason is given is the right to bear arms ammendment where the well regulated militia justification is ambiguous the u s constitution is a nuts and bolts document the delcaration of independence was the high brow reasoning there are a couple of other examples though such as the reasoning for the power to tax and the reasoning for the power to grant permits both in article i section that the veto was meant to be an exceptional measure follows from the fact of the senate if the president was meant to revise legislation then there would be three chambers of the legislature not two furthermore the separation of powers would have been much less distinct to a certain extend i do believe the veto has become something it wasn t intended however i also believe it is inevitable considering the congress own abuse of their power to make bills say whatever they want them to say unlike most people i think we shouldn t be worrying about the veto which is fine but of the problem in congress which almost necessitates its abuse there is no limit in the constitution to the president s veto power regarding what a bill is for previous presidents have used the veto for any number of reasons most usually having something to do with their agenda i am really curious how you single bush out as the president who abused vetos he has the record for vetos bush phill that s absurd bush had vetos one of which was over ridden go read up on fdr if you think that s anything resembling a record why is it not a reasonable restriction because senators is the magic holy number upon which laws must be based if senators feel safe enough with their state constituencies to stand up and fillibuster isn t that enough to indicate there s a sufficient question as to whether a law is a good idea or not to re evaluate it up to a point the fact is though that when the majority are opposed by a minority the minority should not be allowed to win by default why not what is inherently wrong with biasing the system against action historically governemnt action in the u s when dealing with issues with a bare minority and a large minority have not been successful when you re in a position of imposing federal power on diverse people why should the federal government not have to got through something more than a bare majority why one earth should be sufficient to enact a law which covers million people in very very diverse places and living in radically different conditions why shouldn t a super majority be required because the bill at issue is a money bill relating to a short term proposal now we re switching from a general question of a fillibuster to a specific bill i don t see how it make a difference it is not a change in the law where a presupposition in favour of the status quo is arguable sure it s arguable theyr e arguing it however requiring to bring it to a vote ensures that they ll have to have a good argument something that isn t based solely on party lines any system in which the simple majority is given absolute power to ignore the minority then the minority will be ignored i do not see this as a positive thing and for all that i m sure the republicans are looking for pork as much as the democrats they ve got some legitimate objections to the legislation in question so instead you consider a system under which the minority automatically win to be superior no i am completely happy with a system which requires a minority for action since u s history is a history of carving up population groups and implementing piece meal on minorities i feel minorities should have sufficent clout to prevent action they feel strongly enough about and is hardly a tiny minority i don t advocate the minority being capable of initiating actionm but i see no problem with biasing the federal system against action david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
talk.politics.misc	re swimming pool defense in article apr midway uchicago edu thf kimbark uchicago edu ted frank writes in article dasmith husc harvard edu dasmith husc harvard edu david smith writes granted the simple fact of holding down a job will improve these kids chances of getting another job in the future but what inner city kid would want to hold down just one more minimum wage job when there is so much more money to be made dealing drugs what suburban kid would want to hold down a minimum wage job when there is so much more money to be made dealing drugs yet somehow surburban kids do hold down minimum wage jobs so do inner city kids when give the chance any reason you think that inner city kids are incapable of doing legitimate work i suppose the correct answer is not family values s pose not never mind sorry king sparky banaian it s almost as though young kbanaian pitzer claremont edu white guys get up in the dept of economics pitzer college morning and have a big smile latest gdp forecast on their face because you know homer wrote the iliad d souza
talk.politics.misc	the verdict is in rodney king the federal civil rights trial against the four la police officers accused of violating rodney king s civil rights is now history lawrence powell guilty stacey coons guilty theodore brazenio innocent timothy wind innocent sentencing slated for mid august appeals expected so far all is calm in la michael thomas mike gordian com i don t think bambi eyes will get you that flame thrower hobbes to calvin usnail irvine ave santa ana heights ca pabell fax
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article philc n d mk netcom com phil netcom com phil ronzone writes tells you something about the fascist politics being practiced ah ending discrimination is now fascism greg hennessy university of virginia usps mail astronomy department charlottesville va usa internet gsh w virginia edu uucp uunet virginia gsh w
talk.politics.misc	re abolish selective service in article apr m harvard edu borden head cfa harvard edu dave borden writes the selective service registration should be abolished to start with the draft is immoral whether you agree with that or not we don t have one now and military experts agree that the quality of the armed forces is superior with a volunteer army than with draftees finally the government has us on many lists in many computers the irs social security admistration and motor vehicle registries to name a few and it can find us if it needs to maintaining yet another list of people is an utter waste of money and time let s axe this whole department and reduce the deficit a little bit dave borden borden m harvard edu you selfish little bastard afraid you might have to sacrafice somthing for your country what someone not approve a lone for you to bad what is immoral is people like you and the current president who don t have any idea why this country still exists after years
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage on sat apr gmt greg hennessy observed in article philc n d mk netcom com phil netcom com phil ronzone writes tells you something about the fascist politics being practiced ah ending discrimination is now fascism is that what they called it when truman forced integration of the armed forces despite the opposition of congress and most of the american public at that time michael d adams starowl a i rahul net enterprise alabama tilting at windmills hurts you more than the windmills lazarus long
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in apr romulus rutgers edu kaldis romulus rutgers edu theodore a kaldis writes so what so this bolsters the contention that many homosexuals are liars this statement is just so blatantly disgusting and free of any implicit neural activity that i will almost completely ignore it join the pythagorean reform church repent of your evil irrational numbers and bean eating ways accept into your heart call the pythagorean reform church bbs at the above smacks of antihispanic bigotry sigh it s so amusing to watch bigots point fingers at what they imagine to be other bigots i do believe this person meant bean counting and are you trying to suggest that only hispanics eat beans or that they even have a monopoly on eating beans or that this person is seriously promoting what is obviously a tongue in cheek sig you must have a brain somewhere if you can cause your fingers to type use it drywid bi andrew d simchik schnopia as b uhura cc rochester edu treewater words weren t made for cowards happy rhodes
talk.politics.misc	re swimming pool defense in article kbanaian bernard pitzer claremont edu kbanaian bernard pitzer claremont edu king banaian writes in article apr midway uchicago edu thf kimbark uchicago edu ted frank writes in article dasmith husc harvard edu dasmith husc harvard edu david smith writes granted the simple fact of holding down a job will improve these kids chances of getting another job in the future but what inner city kid would want to hold down just one more minimum wage job when there is so much more money to be made dealing drugs what suburban kid would want to hold down a minimum wage job when there is so much more money to be made dealing drugs yet somehow surburban kids do hold down minimum wage jobs so do inner city kids when give the chance any reason you think that inner city kids are incapable of doing legitimate work i suppose the correct answer is not family values s pose not never mind sorry are you assuming that families in the inner city don t have family values i sure hope not
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in c l v jcv news cso uiuc edu dans uxa cso uiuc edu dan s writes brian gab unt edu brian drakula stone writes no axe to grind here i m just a scientist and i hate to see statistics abused pity you didn t say something about the use of statistics to justify targeting and persecuting a minority then men are men and they all like sex i am a gay male i have had sex three times in my life all with the same man before that i was a virgin i am a hetero man and have had sex with one woman in my life my wife it is very pleasing to me to be able to say that i hope you have the same feeling as i do i also wish that you could if you wanted experience the joys and trials of being committed to someone for life there is something about marriage that makes the commitment much greater than one might expect what in the tree makes you think we queers can t experience that commitment what s stopping us from committing to one partner for the rest of our lives i have every intention of doing so once i find the right person and whether that person is male or female i seriously doubt that a church ceremony public vow licence will make any difference whatsoever in the sort of commitment i experience with that person you have no conception of the difference marriage makes since you have never known any other way statistics alone prove that most criminals are by default hetero don t forget about the culture sadly we don t as a society look upon homosexuality as normal and as we are all too well aware there are alot of people who condemn it as a result the gay population is not encouraged to develop non promiscuous relationships in fact there are many roadblocks put in the way of such committed relationships it is as if the heterosexual community puts these blocks there so as to perpetuate the claim that gays are immoral my if we allowed gays to marry raise children we might just find out they re as moral as we are can t have that can we you re getting to the right idea here just be careful of making statements like the above and you ll be part of the solution and not the problem just some thoughts flame away no flames necessary drywid bi andrew d simchik schnopia as b uhura cc rochester edu treewater words weren t made for cowards happy rhodes
talk.politics.misc	re kyle k on rodney king thf kimbark uchicago edu ted frank writes in article c lp y fdk news cso uiuc edu kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu koppenhoefer kyle cramm writes how about the fact that you have a bunch of cops putting their lives on the line day in and day out who are afraid as hell of a large black guy that took a large amount of punishment and refused submit i m curious why you think that particular adjective is important i m curious why you took a beign statement and cross posted it to several different news groups including something along the lines of alt discrimination look rodney king is black and large i have several large black male friends and they are referred to as being large black men to their faces and by themselves you know ted i have a large number of adjectives for you but i will spare you most of them because i try not to get into personal flame wars let me just say that i think your action of cross posting this was total bs and you re trying to start some crap hopefully others will see through your trite little game and not play along
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in apr magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu ryan c scharfy writes so what so there are less gays then the gays claim don t forget that had or more partners i was wondering why i wasn t getting laid your bad english see quote above actually i bet you more gay bi men are as not as promiscuous as gay men because more of them could have the option of living a straight life and with social pressures probably would at least try you d lose that wager if the supporting argument were part of it did you know that is is a fact that homosexuality was comparatively high in hitler s storm troopers sa before he came to power i wonder if they got to put the triangles on themselves did you know that hitler himself was a devout christian and heterosexual drywid bi andrew d simchik schnopia as b uhura cc rochester edu treewater words weren t made for cowards happy rhodes
talk.politics.misc	re race and violence in apr gtx com al gtx com alan filipski writes even though this city phoenix has a relatively small black population black people seem to be responsible for a disproportionate amount of violent crime yesterday black men robbed a cafeteria beat the employees for no apparent reason and shot one dead even though they were being cooperative a few days ago a car full of black men opened fire on a car containing a young white couple and their baby possibly because they didn t like the way the man was driving the baby was slightly injured these incidents are not even unusual even if a white person starts out without racial prejudice as after all we all do and no one teaches them to be prejudiced it s sometimes hard to see how they can avoid becoming so based on their own observations and instinct for self preservation we always taught our children that racial prejudice is wrong not only bad but also mistaken but how do you counteract the effect of these kinds of incidents what s the answer how can we work against racial prejudice when incidents like this keep fanning the flames what can we say to deny that racial prejudice is a rational response to our environment is it should we since the s i have thought the only hope is through integration based on ignoring race and treating each person as an individual but so many either preach divisiveness by emphasizing race or validate racism by their actions where does it lead alan filipski gtx corp e camelback road phoenix az usa internet al gtx com uucp uunet gtx al phone alan you can start by teaching your children that the perpetrators of crimes no more represent the black community than racist hateful whites represent the majority culture although there are many ethnic minorities who have fallen into the very trap that you are struggling with and believe otherwise the trap is the easy way out for yourself i think it would be a good idea to realize that the demographics related to the crimes you speak of have less to do with race and much to do with socioeconomic status and disenfranchisement you re going to find higher crime within any community comprised of any ethnic group or subgroup that has become dysfunctional whatever the factors leading to that dysfunction with ethnic minorities it is more usually than not as i said socioeconomic disenfranchisement if for example you lived in an area where there were very few blacks but quite a few poor for generations whites you d see the crime statistics reflecting the dysfunction of those white people would you then worry about whther your children would begin to see whites as undesireable or whatever the trap springs into action when our innate compunction to define us and other raises its little voice the trap becomes dangerous when we stop to listen to that little voice and stop thinking like rational humans it s interesting that blacks are traditionally seen as the or the most criminal element in many of our urban areas i don t know the racial makeup of phoenix so i can t speak to your situation however i live in san francisco a city that loves to tout its ethnic diversity here we have black gangs hispanic gangs asian yes the model minority gangs and even a few white gangs the asian gangs have become a particularly troublesome element for law enforcement here mainly due i think to their propensity for engaging in organized criminal activities but ask people on the street and they ll out of times tell you that black gangs and crime are what they most fear during the disturbance in los angeles last year many of the rioters and looters were not black some were even white i remember being amazed at television news scenes that showed looting mobs where there were maybe one or two blacks at most my perceptions gleaned from tv news were further corroborated by numerous friends and relatives that live in los angeles this may have been the country s first truly multi ethnic riot yet i know from face to face and online discussion that in the minds of america the popular perception is that it was a black riot in closing i d like to say that you raise some interesting points that really need discussion our country has spent too long ignoring the racism and its attendant ills that is very much a part of our culture as a people we are afraid to face up to some hurtful truths and the problem becomes compounded daily we cannot afford to do it much longer i truly believe that the well being of all of us depends on changing our current course of denial and repression i wish you and your children and all other people of all colors luck in avoiding the trap peace my brother m hokh ton the crystal wind is the storm mdouglas netcom com and the storm is data michael douglas llyr and the data is life player s litany the long run
talk.politics.misc	re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in article stevethc li y c v netcom com steveth netcom com steve thomas wri tes in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus a cs ohio state edu ryan c scharfy writes however legalizing it and just sticking some drugs in gas stations to be bought like cigarettes is just plain silly i don t find this silly at all i find it silly black humor that we re spending billions of dollars and risking the lives and freedoms of every american to save a bunch of by choice druggies could you please tell us why you find this silly that s why letters w h and y rather than arguments like oh everbody thinks such and such is true first the only drug that could possibly be put in drug stations are marijuana or its derivitives every other drug that i can think of can kill you if you take to much by the very nature of these drugs your decision making skills aren t up to par that is how it differs from asprin flinstone vitamins etc we don t even allow penicilin to be sold over the counter second we already have a big enough drunk driving and alchoholic problem in this country if marijuana were legal undoubtedly more people would use it and that is a problem people use it get stupid and hurt other people ryan
talk.politics.misc	re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in article stevethc lm e fx netcom com steveth netcom com steve thomas wri tes in article c l c fxp news iastate edu jrbeach iastate edu jeffry r beach writes in article stevethc js f fn netcom com steveth netcom com steve thomas w rites boy it looks like the wod is working really good to stop people from being screwed up in the head given that example issue your friend got his drugs legal or not legal he ll continue to get them issue why should i as somebody who does not use illegal drugs and who is not screwed up have to pay for this idiot s problems he s not doing anybody any harm except himself the wod on the other hand is a n immediate threat to my life and livelyhood tell me why i should sacrafice this to that hello is there anybody in there you think you have to pay for this idiot s problem now who s going to pay for the ballooning number of addicts and all of the associated problems with them i don t even want to think about it with hillary in the white house and an administration that feels our pain look if you were truly for lower taxation and less government you would not be advocating the wod ever wonder why the wod is a bi partisan issue no harm but to himself what about when he drives his school bus full of kids into a train when he gets stoned and drives up on a sidewalk and kills people when he lives off me on welfare for the rest of his life ridiculous i can t imagine anyone this stupid forgive me for flaming but this is sooooooo obvious tell me why any of the above cases cannot be caused be a legal drug viz alcohol or are you for having a war on that too now i ll tell you more people are killed by alcohol related accidents than all other drugs combined by far probably because more people have access to alchohol it is legal you know the problem with the wod is that it has no bite sending the slimy bastards to the chair for selling drugs to kids now there s some bit yeah that s it send a kid from the inner city who has no other viable means to make money and turns to selling drugs to an over crowded federal prison where he learns to do real crime of course this kid would be much better off selling crack to his neighborhood and helping in its demise without drug money being pumped into these blights from the affluent outside there would be no crime who would they steal from each other drugs bring money into the community just like any other business would except that since drugs are illegal the economy is an underground one and if those drugs were legal the neighborhood could legally go to hell a self sustaining underground economy can only proliferate by a constant willful infusion of money from the outside if you take away drug laws you put an end to the underground economy and therefore to large scale crime and if we made murder legal we would put an end to murder as a crime kids in the inner cities are faced with a very tough life growing up there or selling drugs and having everything at their fingertips instantly many kids choose selling drugs they sell products to people who want to buy them they make money off of rich white kids from the suburbs then they go to prison then they become hardened criminals and learn that you re much better off stealing car stereos in the suburbs because all the police forces are spending all their money in the inner city saving people from themselves what you can bring up all the examples you want about crack babies and whathaveyou the solution never has anything to do with the laws crack is illegal so you are saying crack babies who are that way legally are okay no social problem however great is worth destroying the freedom in america the destruction of freedom is never an answer to any social problem you can t even walk down the street at night alone in america because of drugs freedom my ass ryan
talk.politics.misc	re top ten signs that it s the age of aquarius on pennsylvania avenue in regard to woody s post i thought i would remind him of something in the midst of his tirade against academia as a member of the generation likely to pay for the crap reagan and his cronies started with the deficit according to the brilliant laffer curve not i think we need to look with open minds upon any ideas which will allow us to directly address the problems of the gigantic federal deficit and debt and continue to allow our economy to expand and i don t remember woody and co complaining about academia while laffer implemented his policy stockman approved it while being fully aware the numbers not adding up and reagan completing the largest con job of the century which my generation and i will now have to pay for jesse
talk.politics.misc	re if drugs should be legalized how was good neighbor in article qpakjinniq senator bedfellow mit edu wdstarr athena mit edu wil liam december starr writes in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu ryan c scharfy said however legalizing it and just sticking some drugs in gas stations to be bought like cigarettes is just plain silly plus i have never heard of a recommended dosage for drugs like crack ecstasy chrystal meth and lsd the minute report said it worked with cocaine cigarettes pot and heroin or the government could adopt the radical and probably unamerican idea that citizens are free to live their lives as they wish and simply decriminalize cocaine marijuana heroin lsd etc please explain why the idea of allowing recreational drugs to be bought like cigarettes is just plain silly after all it works just fine for nicotine yeah cancer is pretty cool isn t it ryan
talk.politics.misc	re new bullshit study out on gay percentage in optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes from the santa rosa cal press democrat april p b male sex survey gay activity low a new natonal study on male sexual behavior the most thorough examination of american men s sexual practices published since the kinsey report more than four decades ago shows about percent of the men surveyed had engaged in homosexual sex and percent considered themselves exclusively homosexual etc etc the article also contains numbers on the number of sexual partners the median number of sexual partners for all men was sure and what s of a woman any hypothesis how can you trust a report from people that have no idea of what a median is the same bullshit article reported that of all the men have sex times or more a week elf how many times did you fill one of those questionnaires and had other statistics that took in no consideration different class backgrounds marital status etc no information on sampling were given compared to the table i have already posted from masters johnson and kolodny showing male homosexual partners it is apparent that homosexual men are dramatically more promiscuous than the general male population it s a shame that we don t have a breakdown for do you think you can compare so lightly secondary data from very different and discutible surveys straight men vs gay bi men that would show even more dramatically how much more promiscuous gay bi men are it just shows how dramatically ignorant are press release writers and most pople that read them paolo
talk.politics.misc	re z magazine health care reform march sorry harel et al but our doctors and most hospitals are still private in canada as well as in much of western europe harelb math cornell edu harel barzilai grad brown writes h e a l t h c a r e r e f o r m by camille colatosti z magazine see bottom march the single payer model sometimes called national health insurance eliminates private insurance companies and removes health care from employment the government provides free health care to all u s residents and there are no out of pocket costs wrong in better ec countries that use pure but public health insurance like we use in canada rather than self enclosed hmo like socialized medicine of our costs comes from private supplementary insurance and or copayments france magazine s summer edition has a fantastic presentation of their basic insurance coverage including a sample chart of copayment percentages for days you re covered for of the public hospital rate afterward with extra private insurance you can get into a private hospital and be covered for any differences beyond the public hospital rate the public insurance covers beyond days or the same cash amount for a private hospital and the difference is paid out of pocket or according to your supplementary private insurance over rds of french have some form of extra private insurance so of health costs in europe are out of private funds and not gleaned from other taxes the gdp figures are combined public and private expenditures for total outlay using the same methods that yield the figure for the u s that the french had deductibles and copayments in their insurance fund is to their credit i am in the minority for advocating such back in canada to make the canadian insurance look more like real health insurance which actually it is the new reform party a breakoff of traditionalists from the conservatives with a mildly libertarian faction hold our public health insurance as an untouchable but that just a few people have to be reminded that it s not free the average canadian european is more fiscally naive than their american counterparts on issues like these i m one of the few people who favour copayments forget about leftists even our conservatives attack me for it on the canadian newsgroups to make it look more like real insurance cos the insurance payment is hidden unlike in france and if you didn t know it you d believe it actually is socialized medicine american conservatives libertarians and canadian leftists are the only ones who seriously call it that canadians aren t worried about the americans who spend we re worried about the french and germans who spend to our so the insurance is looking at things that shouldn t be paid for out of general funds like physicals for insurance policies sick notes electrolysis etc the reason that the canadian health insurance hasn t spiralled out of control despite being open and universal is that unlike americans there is no urge to spend all of your benefits worth and more if you can we re a different culture like the play or pay model managed competition leaves in place two elements of the current health care system that reformers most often criticize the private for profit insurance industry and the employer based system of coverage managed competition compels employers to enroll their workers in large pools of health insurance customers entire industries may for example sponsor a pool or network insurance companies doctors hospitals and other health care providers then bid for the pool s business competing in theory on the basis of price and quality managed care relies on hmo s which are unknown in most western nations that use only public health insurance like canada france and germany i m canadian and my german father in law to be says of hmo nhs approaches we left that behind with east germany sure hmo nhs controls costs because you have managers strangling doctors with budget strings in canada we use the public health insurance approach as in france and germany with all private doctors and both private and public hospitals it is all pure insurance without hmo s the divisions are different with the germans using a couple hundred interlinked sickness funds over a century old while canada divides by their provinces who run the insurance fund and set local fees with the doctors monopoly federal funds cover the fees disbursed with such an open ended system it s no surprise that canada is to the u s in costs all insurance is the most expensive way to go the french and germans use the same approach but have larger populations in more compact geography to improve scales of economy gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
talk.politics.misc	re eight myths about national health insurance pt ii harelb math cornell edu misc activism progressive co moderator writes f o cus health eight myths about national health insurance pt ii an office visit that s in seattle is in vancouver canada that s because among other things they ve given their government power to bargain with doctors and hospitals over fees the difference in the litigation environment is reflected in the fees lack of defensive medicine and near absence of malpractice is really why we spend less using the most expensive approach of pure insurance in canada along with france and germany without hmo s the nyt has admitted that malpractice insurance fees are an order of magnitude lower in canada but doctors take home pay is almost equal to american doctors also minimal bureaucracy cos the system is so o o simple early march part of the deal for using the all insurance approach like the french and germans do hey why don t they criticize france and germany is it because too many people take french and german in college to make the accusations stick was to preserve the doctors independance since the provincial wings of the cma are the ones that go to bat when the fee schedule hikes are presented the politically bent doctors were just cackling when they realized the cma would grow in strength rather than diminish especially when unopposed unlike in socialized medicine approaches like britain s national health service you ve got to remember you ve got a waiting list as well but it s not as obvious if you re poor and you don t have insurance you don t go to a surgeon in the states you ration by ability to pay for non life threatening things market arguments adequately cover why certain procedures are in scarcer demand i have md friends who can t make a living as specialists back in manitoba not due to the insurance rates but because they won t get enough customers the cma medical monopoly s grip on doctors licencing as in the us aside so they must move to larger places however this does not refute debunking of waiting lines for urgent and routine care as has been done in the u s by consumers reports health policy studies cited by prof dennis e shea on usenet cnn nyt etc doug fierro has posted a nyt article from weeks ago about canada s health insurance approach on talk politics medicine there is one small error in the article not all of our hospitals are private wouldn t national health insurance mean that americans who are now fully insured might have to settle for less in canada provincial insurance covers all health costs except dental care eyeglasses prescription drugs ambulance service and private hospital rooms so many canadians do end up buying some private insurance a policy to cover all of these things runs about to a month of course the one thing to note is that in the canada france germany case private insurance offloaded the basic coverage to the public sector they realized they were keeping low risk high profit extra insurance for things like private semi private rooms vs ward accomodation dental glasses etc for corporate or personal benefits they ll have nothing to do with you if you want to be covered for basic care at that point they wouldn t even consider a voucher approach to broker the universal coverage and sell policies to make up the difference in the federal guidelines and market stuff wouldn t free care encourage people to run to the doctor for every ache and pain people who get free treatment do go to the doctor and hospital about a third more often than those who have to pay a share of their medical bills still canadians who pay nothing at the doctor s have a lower per person health bill than we do it is free in that there are no deductibles nor copayments two things which i advocate to make the canadian insurance look more like real health insurance which actually it is i know that when working in alberta ontario and quebec i was aware that i was paying for health insurance e g in toronto ohip fees were listed on my pay stub manitoba did not collect at paycheque time but only annually at income tax time built into the tax rate only fiscal naifs will proclaim that it s free along with the canadian left for that is part of their brainwashing agenda the french do have copayments though france magazine s summer edition has a fantastic presentation of their basic insurance coverage including a sample chart of copayment percentages for days you re covered for of the public hospital rate afterward with extra private insurance you can get into a private hospital and be covered for any differences beyond the public hospital rate the public insurance covers beyond days or the same cash amount for a private hospital and the difference is paid out of pocket or according to your supplementary private insurance over rds of french have some form of extra private insurance so the other of health costs in europe are out of private funds not gleaned from other taxes the gdp figures are combined public and private expenditures for total outlay using the same methods that yield the figure for the u s isn t the private health insurance industry just too big and powerful to kill dismantling the health segment of our insurance industry would be politically thorny in the quiet words of one advocate for a national plan some firms now sell more than billion in health insurance they d put up a hard fight not only has the industry grown eightfold since canada shut down its own health insurers but our government leaves politicians more open to lobbyists than does canada s parliamentary system health insurance does exist in canada and in western europe its just that it doesn t cover basic care you can opt out in canada and germany but you ll have to go uninsured as a result because there are too few other people that do so i e no market when private insurance realized how much money they d make without the risks involved in basic insurance e g neurosurgery versus deluxe amenities e g having to call granada tv to replace a rental set on the fritz in someone s private hospital room they started to pat themselves on the back for their social responsibility in quebec last spring a consortium of private insurers publicly warned against any thoughts of privatizing routine low cost parts of that province s public health insurance plan gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
talk.politics.misc	re f o cus health one payer system b s ujsnyder msuvx memstvx bitnet mizzou missouri edu writes there is never any mention of how much working canadians have to pay in taxes for their free health care system oh really i know that more than of an average daily worker s salary goes towards taxes in canada mainly because of this free health care it looks like we are pretty lucky so far i know that when working in alberta ontario and quebec i was aware that i was paying for health insurance e g in toronto ohip fees were listed seperately on my pay stub while i m not the only canadian who favours lower taxes and cutbacks in spending health insurance isn t on the table see our polls a better one might be the july st polls conducted for macleans our major english newsmagazine by decima research decima president allen gregg is considered one of the world s top poll researchers and mulroney s conservatives have relied on him to keep in power in the face of impossible election situations i haven t had a chance to see this year s version due to our library but previous ones before the americans started their assault and disinformation had shown satisfaction at and switching to an american all private system had support within statistical noise the decima polls are considered definitive even the new reform party a breakoff of traditionalists from the conservatives with a mildly libertarian faction hold our public health insurance as an untouchable but that just a few people have to be reminded that it s not free the average canadian european is more fiscally naive than their american counterparts on issues like these personally i feel that the universal health insurance approach used in canada france and germany paying to private health providers in a nominally free market not unlike america s minus hmo s depends a lot on values in those societies different from the u s the basic health needs for life are not viewed as market but the insurance does allow the market to address that basic health care is not viewed on the level of ownership of a vcr as americans would see it plenty of room is left for expenditure of private funds as extra insurance or as lastly there were noises about how the canadian system was not containing costs but in fact their system is currently bankrupt please explain this one hopefully in a way that canadian readers besides myself can understand and concur gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
talk.politics.misc	clinton president s radio interview in pittsburgh the white house office of the press secretary pittsburgh pennsylvania for immediate release april interview of the president by michael whitely of kdka am radio pittsburgh pittsburgh international airport pittsburgh pennsylvania a m edt q for everyone listening on kdka radio i m mike whitely kdka radio news we re here at the pittsburgh international airport and with me is the president of the united states bill clinton and i d like to welcome you to the area and to kdka the president thank you mike glad to be here q there are a lot of things we d like to talk about in the brief amount of time we have but some news is just breaking from los angeles i guess the entire country has been kind of holding their breath wondering what s going to happen in the trial of the four los angeles police officers we just heard that two of those officers the sergeant sergeant koon and officer powell have been found guilty and two officers have been found not guilty it s a situation that s been building for over a year since the first trial and now this trial and this verdict and i wonder what your thoughts are this morning on how you see the situation in los angeles in connection with your administration and what you re trying to do the president well first of all i think the american people should know that this trial in my judgment is a tribute to the work and judgment of the jury as well as to the efforts of the federal government in developing the case the law under which the officers were tried is a complex one the standards of proof are complicated the jury decided that they would convict the sergeant who was responsible for supervising the officers and the officer who on the film did most of the beating the jury acquitted an officer who kicked rodney king but also plainly tried to shield him from some blows and another officer who was a rookie no one knows exactly why they did what they did but it appears that they really tried to do justice here they acknowledged that his civil rights were violated and i think that the american people should take a lot of pride in that but i hope now we can begin to look ahead and focus on three things first of all the importance of trying to bring this country together and not violate the civil rights of any american secondly the importance of renewing our fight against crime i think it s important to recognize that in the poorest areas of los angeles and many other cities in this country people may be worried about police abuse but they re even more worried about crime it s time that we renewed our efforts to go to community policing put more police officers on the street pass the brady bill that would require a waiting period before people could buy a handgun and do some other things to reduce the vulnerability of our people to violence and drugs and the last point i d like to make is it seems to me that we have got to rededicate ourselves to the economic revitalization of our cities and other economically distressed areas if you just think about it if everybody in los angeles who wanted a job had one i don t think we d have quite as many problems as we do and i laid out a very ambitious program in the campaign to try to bring private investment and public investment to bear in our cities i have dispatched the commerce secretary ron brown to california to try to come up with some strategies for that state because it s our biggest state with our highest unemployment rate which could then be applied around the country i want to talk to him and to the attorney general to the new head of the naacp to reverend jackson and to several other people and then i ll decide where to go from here with regard to los angeles and the other cities of the country q let s talk about what brings you to the pittsburgh area today there have been i guess there s been a lot of discussion on capitol hill about your stimulus package you ve been locked in a battle with the gop yesterday as you said earlier in your radio address you made some moves to break that gridlock what brings you to pittsburgh in particular to allegheny county in particular to pennsylvania with that battle the president well there are two reasons first of all pittsburgh allegheny county and pennsylvania supported me in the last election because they wanted a new direction in economic policy we have passed our overall economic plan it gives the country a very different budget for the next five years than we ve had in the previous we reduced the deficit and at the same time increased investment in jobs and education and health care in the things that will make us a stronger country but in addition to that i asked the congress in the short run to spend a little more money a modest amount of money to create another half million jobs in the next year and a half to try to cut the unemployment rate by a half a percent but also to try to spark job creation in the private sector more the plan passed the house it has the support of a majority of the senate at the present time all the republican senators as a bloc are filibustering the bill that is they won t let it come to a vote i believe that senator specter would like to vote for the bill and i believe that senator dole the republican leader has put a lot of pressure on a lot of the republicans to stay hitched and they re all saying that this bill increases the deficit it doesn t this bill is well below the spending targets that congress approved including the republicans for this year this bill is paid for by budget cuts in the next five years this bill is designed to give a jump start to the economy and i must say a lot of the republican senators that are holding it up when mr bush was president voted for billions of dollars of emergency spending of just this kind much of it was totally unrelated to creating jobs so what i m trying to do is to break this logjam i ve held out an olive branch i ve offered a compromise but i think that we ought to try to put some more americans to work right now to show that we re changing the direction of the country and that s the purpose of the bill q have you been in touch with senator specter or his office lately the president well we ve been trying to talk regularly to through my white house congressional liaison operation to the senators that we think are open to this senator specter senator d amato from new york senator jeffords from vermont senator hatfield from oregon and five or six others whom we believe know we need more jobs in this economy and know that we are paying for this with budget cuts over the life of the budget i presented you know it has a lot of appeal to say well we ve got a big deficit we shouldn t increase it more but the truth is that we are paying for this with budget cuts in the whole life of the budget over the next few years and more importantly we have this program well below the spending targets that congress has already approved for this year and they ve done this for years with the republicans voting for it many republicans voting for it for things that weren t nearly as important as putting the american people back to work so i just hope that this doesn t become a political issue it ought to just be about the people of this country and the need for jobs q i have some questions from people who supported you and some people who are skeptical about your administration it has to do with their hopes and also with their fears a lot of people who supported you and voted for you in pennsylvania i think some of them are now saying we re glad we got him in the white house but now look at this incredible process he has to go through look at these problems look at this gridlock and they re beginning to wonder is this going to work can you pull it off and of course your skeptics are saying well i knew it was going to be like this the president well what i would i d ask people first of all to remember that we are frankly moving very fast the budget resolution that the congress passed is the fastest they have ever passed a budget resolution ever in history setting out the next five year budget targets so we are moving really rapidly and we ve got them working on political reform welfare reform health care reform a whole wide range of things but it s a big operation you can t expect to turn it around overnight it took years to produce the conditions which led to the victory i received from the people in november and we can t turn it around in days but i think we re making real real progress i would urge the people not to get discouraged we re not going to win every battle and not everything is going to happen overnight but we are definitely moving and changing things q thank you very much the president of the united states bill clinton here live at pittsburgh international airport i m mike whitely kdka news end a m edt
talk.politics.misc	clinton president s radio address the white house office of the press secretary pittsburgh pennslyvania for immediate release april radio address to the nation by the president pittsburgh international airport pittsburgh pennsylvania a m edt the president good morning my voice is coming to you this morning through the facilities of the oldest radio station in america kdka in pittsburgh i m visiting the city to meet personally with citizens here to discuss my plans for jobs health care and the economy but i wanted first to do my weekly broadcast with the american people i m told this station first broadcast in when it reported that year s presidential elections over the past seven decades presidents have found ways to keep in touch with the people from whistle stop tours to fire side chats to the bus tour that i adopted along with vice president gore in last year s campaign every saturday morning i take this time to talk with you my fellow americans about the problems on your minds and what i m doing to try and solve them it s my way of reporting to you and of giving you a way to hold me accountable you sent me to washington to get our government and economy moving after years of paralysis and policy and a bad experiment with trickle down economics you know how important it is for us to make bold comprehensive changes in the way we do business we live in a competitive global economy nations rise and fall on the skills of their workers the competitiveness of their companies the imagination of their industries and the cooperative experience and spirit that exists between business labor and government although many of the economies of the industrialized world are now suffering from slow growth they ve made many of the smart investments and the tough choices which our government has for too long ignored that s why many of them have been moving ahead and too many of our people have been falling behind we have an economy today that even when it grows is not producing new jobs we ve increased the debt of our nation by four times over the last years and we don t have much to show for it we know that wages of most working people have stopped rising that most people are working longer work weeks and that too many families can no longer afford the escalating cost of health care but we also know that given the right tools the right incentives and the right encouragement our workers and businesses can make the kinds of products and profits our economy needs to expand opportunity and to make our communities better places to live in many critical products today americans are the low cost high quality producers our task is to make sure that we create more of those kinds of jobs just two months ago i gave congress my plan for long term jobs and economic growth it changes the old priorities in washington and puts our emphasis where it needs to be on people s real needs on increasing investments and jobs and education on cutting the federal deficit on stopping the waste which pays no dividends and redirecting our precious resources toward investment that creates jobs now and lays the groundwork for robust economic growth in the future these new directions passed the congress in record time and created a new sense of hope and opportunity in our country then the jobs plan i presented to congress which would create hundreds of thousands of jobs most of them in the private sector in and passed the house of representatives it now has the support of a majority of the united states senate but it s been held up by a filibuster of a minority in the senate just senators they blocked a vote that they know would result in the passage of our bill and the creation of jobs the issue isn t politics the issue is people millions of americans are waiting for this legislation and counting on it counting on us in washington but the jobs bill has been grounded by gridlock i know the american people are tired of business as usual and politics as usual i know they don t want us to spin or wheels they want the recovery to get moving so i have taken a first step to break this gridlock and gone the extra mile yesterday i offered to cut the size of this plan by percent from billion to billion it s not what i d hoped for with million americans looking for full time work i simply can t let the bill languish when i know that even a compromise bill will mean hundreds of thousands of jobs for our people the mandate is to act to achieve change and move the country forward by taking this initiative in the face of an unrelenting senate talkathon i think we can respond to your mandate and achieve a significant portion of our original goals first we want to keep the programs as much as possible that are needed to generate jobs and meet human needs including highway and road construction summer jobs for young people immunization for children construction of waste water sites and aid to small businesses we also want to keep funding for extended unemployment compensation benefits for people who have been unemployed for a long time because the economy isn t creating jobs second i ve recommended that all the other programs in the bill be cut across the board by a little more than percent and third i ve recommended a new element in this program to help us immediately start our attempt to fight against crime by providing million for cities and towns to rehire police officers who lost their jobs during the recession and put them back to work protecting our people i m also going to fight for a tough crime bill because the people of this country need it and deserve it now the people who are filibustering this bill the republican senators say they won t vote for it because it increases deficit spending because there s extra spending this year that hasn t already been approved that sounds reasonable doesn t it here s what they don t say this program is more than paid for by budget cuts over my five year budget and this budget is well within the spending limits already approved by the congress this year it s amazing to me that many of these same senators who are filibustering the bill voted during the previous administration for billions of dollars of the same kind of emergency spending and much of it was not designed to put the american people to work this is not about deficit spending we have offered a plan to cut the deficit this is about where your priorities are on people or on politics keep in mind that our jobs bill is paid for dollar for dollar it is paid for by budget cuts and it s the soundest investment we can now make for ourselves and our children i urge all americans to take another look at this jobs and investment program to consider again the benefits for all of us when we ve helped make more american partners working to ensure the future of our nation and the strength of our economy you know if every american who wanted a job had one we wouldn t have a lot of the other problems we have in this country today this bill is not a miracle it s a modest first step to try to set off a job creation explosion in this country again but it s a step we ought to take and it is fully paid for over the life of our budget tell your lawmakers what you think tell them how important the bill is if it passes we ll all be winners good morning and thank you for listening end a m edt
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article apr romulus rutgers edu kaldis romulus rutgers edu theodore a kaldis writes so one should properly write who s promiscuous the answer is many homosexuals are not quite the answer is many homosexuals heterosexual and bisexuals are but then many are not or more simply lots of people are o tzoq i am a good speller i am c a t dog o o tzoq uwo ca b a t rhode island v o redekop obelix gaul csd uwo ca junyer bear bernoulli would have been content to die had he but known such a cos phi
talk.politics.misc	re help fight the clinton administration s invasion of your privacy in article blue cis pitt edu cjp pitt edu casimir j palowitch writes the clinton administration wants to manage your use of digital encryption this includes a proposal which would limit your use of encryption to a standard developed by the nsa the technical details of which would remain classified with the government this cannot be allowed to happen it is a bit unfair to call blame the clinton administration alone this initiative was underway under the bush administration it is basically a bipartisan effort of the establishment demopublicans and republicrats the same bipartisan effort that brought the s l scandal and bcci etc gerald
talk.politics.misc	re nc vs hunt marine gay bashing in wilmington nc verdict jon atlas mitre org j e shum writes in article c g su k wolves durham nc us wolfe wolves durham nc us g wo a sad day for civil rights but typical of nc unfortunately if it is typical for the principle of reasonable doubt to be upheld in north carolina then i would count that in the state s favor reasonable doubt dates back to human rights we are now in the time of civil rights civil rights are issued by the state with whatever strings attached they choose as the grantor of said rights and if that means that verdicts are determined by the needs of the state rather than by guilt or innocence in a traditional sense so be it being subjective rather than objective may make it harder to anticipate what is right and you may be sacrificed for being wrong inadvertantly once in a while but that really is a small price to pay for the common good don t you think cutter gloster via mind org chris all jobs are easy to the person who doesn t have to do them holt s law
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu ryan c scharfy writes in article c k lc cyf murdoch acc virginia edu lfoard hopper virginia edu la wrence c foard writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes from the santa rosa cal press democrat april p b male sex survey gay activity low a new natonal study on male sexual behavior the most thorough examination of american men s sexual practices published since the kinsey report more than four decades ago shows about percent of the men surveyed had engaged in homosexual sex and percent considered themselves exclusively homosexual the figures on homosexuality in the study released wednesday by the alan guttmacher institute are significantly lower than the percent figure that has been part of the conventional wisdom since it was published in the kinsey report so what so there are less gays then the gays claim last i checked i was one person i haven t even been elected as a representative for gaydom should i ascribe every thing you say as representing every member of the straight community it will be interesting to see the reaction when million queers gather in washington dc after all if there are only million of us then this is an event unprecidented in history dream on abortion and african american civil rights rallies don t even bring in half of that thats the point if there are several million queers in dc you had better start wondering about the validity of the study join the pythagorean reform church repent of your evil irrational numbers and bean eating ways accept into your heart call the pythagorean reform church bbs at
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article apr romulus rutgers edu kaldis romulus rutgers edu theodore a kaldis writes in article c k lc cyf murdoch acc virginia edu lfoard hopper virginia edu lawrence c foard writes so what so this bolsters the contention that many homosexuals are liars so if this study is proved wrong then it proves that heterosexuals are liars unlike the propaganda spouted by the far right the ten percent figure was backed up by the best study available at the time its hardly certain that this new study is correct since it hasn t even been out for enough time for any double checking to happen the alan guttmacher institute btw is funded by planned parenthood so it hardly qualifies as a bastion of conservatism or of family values of course if they had found then it would be invalid because it was funded by planned parenthood it will be interesting to see the reaction when million queers gather in washington dc after all if there are only million of us then this is an event unprecidented in history this preassumes that million queers will show up on april th there won t be anywhere near that many go ahead make my day promote that number that way it will surely be a much greater embarrassment and slap in the face to homosexual activists when the crowds are much smaller even if its only one million the point still stands even getting th of a given population in one place would be unprecidented if even million show up in dc it will raise serious doubts about this study or indicate a resolve unprecidented in human history btw have you noticed that even slick willie isn t going to be in town that day he isn t the target of the march nor do presidents often speak at civil rights marchs of course it would have been nice however the republicans and conservative democrats would do well to take notice join the pythagorean reform church repent of your evil irrational numbers and bean eating ways accept into your heart call the pythagorean reform church bbs at the above smacks of antihispanic bigotry this is quite amusing obviously you know nothing about the history of math join the pythagorean reform church repent of your evil irrational numbers and bean eating ways accept into your heart call the pythagorean reform church bbs at
talk.politics.misc	re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate in article apr rigel tamu edu gmw rigel tamu edu mr grinch writes in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes this is a strawman argument and fails on several grounds in this case limited and big government are not defined i would point out that lebanon somalia and the former yugoslavia are by some definitions nations with limited government while the us canada and nations in western europe where people would rather live are often pointed out as nations with big government from a libertarian point of view well let me help by explaining the difference between a linited government and a failed government a limited government has its powers clearly circumscribed but is fully capable of enforcing its decisions within those circumscribed areas a failed government is incapable of enforcing its decisions except sporadicly two completely different beasts of course one again faces the question of how one circumscribes government power and keeps it circumscribed in a complex society when it is in the interest of neither capitalists nor consumers to refrain from using government power for their own ends but apart from that little conundrum it would seem that a society with a failed government would be an ideal setting for libertarian ideals to be implemented now why do you suppose that never seems to occur the argument is not between those who want limited government and those who want unlimited government it is between those who believe government regulation in a capitalist economy serves worthwhile ends and those who believe such regulation is neither desirable on empirical grounds nor justifiable on ideological grounds regulation is such a vauge word i wouldn t call it vague i d call it elastic all regulation is not necessarily the same by opposing all government regulation some libertarians treat every system from a command economy to those that regulate relatively free markets as identical that s one reason many of the rest of us find their analysis to be simplistic jsh mr grinch steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing about data it sure does cut uucp uunet isc br thor steveh the bulls t r hofferbert ma bell
talk.politics.misc	re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate in article apr rigel tamu edu gmw rigel tamu edu mr grinch writes in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes on a case by case basis the cost benefit ratio of government regulation is obviously worthwhile the libertarian agenda however does not call for this assessment it assumes that the costs of regulation of any kind always outweigh its benefits this approach avoids all sorts of difficult analysis but it strikes many of the rest of us as dogmatic to say the least i assume you mean that analyzing the cost benefit ratio of government regulation on a case by case basis is worthwhile let me suggest that this is not an option regulators regulate it s what they do i m not sure why you don t consider it an option no one suggests that such analysis should be left to regulators in fact the re inventing government movement provides just such a cost benefit approach to the analysis of public spending libertarians would do well to learn more about it it might be possible to pass an amendment which would prevent any liscensing laws from being valid assuming you could convince people that it would overall be a good idea eliminating the liscensing laws which serve no good purpose the vast majority of them while maintaining the worthwhile ones assuming there are any is not feasible sorry but it strikes me that it is the only feasible approach what is not feasible is a wholesale attack on all government regulation and licensing that treats cutting hair and practicing medicine as equivalent tasks i have no objection to an analysis of medical care education national defense or local police that suggests a free market can provide a more effective efficient means of accomplishing social objectives than is provided through statist approaches with some notable exceptions however i do not see such nitty gritty worthwhile analysis being carried out by self professed libertarians jsh i note that the above examples tend to be among the few government areas likely to win some approval among libertarians anyway actually the only areas of public spending above that strike me as generating substantial support among libertarians are police and defense it is an interesting aside that as committed as libertarians claim to be to a principle of non coercion the only areas of public spending that they frequently support involve hiring people with guns hmmm the most objectionable government expenditures are entitlements which also are the biggest certain individuals will suggest that these should be considered defense on the grounds that they are a sort of danegeld to would be revolutionaries but i personally don t feel we have much to fear from an alliance of geezers and unwed mothers maybe i ve led too sheltered a life perhaps you have may i suggest that you consider that revolutionaries frequently generate support by acting as protectors of geezers mothers and children governments that ignore such people on the grounds that we don t have much to fear from them do so at their own peril jsh mr grinch steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing about data it sure does cut uucp uunet isc br thor steveh the bulls t r hofferbert ma bell
talk.politics.misc	re propaganda re re fillibuster in article c otox bji dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker writes in article veal utkvm utk edu veal utkvm utk edu david veal writes in article c n wh izv dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker writes or are they simply propogranda we can t know what phill really means because he s obviously using arguments designed to convince i make no secret of what i am up to i have stated explicitly in posts that i am a political propagandist on numerous occasions anyone posting to this group who is not probably has the wrong group for example i have on numerous occasions stated quite clearly that i beleive that certain factions of the gun lobby are the worst possible advocates of their cause and i am prepared to do anything in my power to provide them with a platform because they can convince people far better than i could hope that many people with a fixation on lethal weapons are dangerous and derranged if you happen to know a political position which does not have people advocating it who do more harm than good please point it out some people have even accused me of inventing such advocates purely for the purpose of having them trash a set of political views in fact this would be a futile tactic because i could never hope to invent a character as dangerous as sybok athena edu a man who i quite seriously believe to be mentaly ill and a potential psychopath unfortunately the local sherifs office have informed me that they are unable to act untill he attacks someone one of the advantages and draw backs of requiring proof on the part of the government before they may take action against citizens and part of the reason some of us believe weapons should be available so if you were to ask me what is the point that i am trying to make from this current argument on the absolute sanctity of the us constitution what would i answer we are not arguing the absolute sanctity of the u s constitution in fact the fillibuster we re talking about isn t in the constitution i objected to your suggestion that the senate wasn t intended to exercise the power it was clearly given firstly i see that the current us political scene like the uk political scene has become tied to special interests rather than chase the convenient caricatures put about by the media and polititians themselves for this gay rights cmapaigners environmentalists zionists i e jews foreign lobbyists whatever voting power they have etc i sugest that you look at who is really benefiting the inevitable conclusion is that it is the major corporations owned by the ultra wealthy that have benefited regan and bush created what can only be described as a welfare state for the rich i ll point out again that reagan only had a republican majority in the senate during his first term and his coalition in the house came apart at about the same time bush never had any real support in congress the real point is that everybody everywhere got their pork from the big corporations to the guy i saw last night leaving a convenience store with an armful of junk food he d bought with food stamps he spent more in food stamps on junk than i make in a week and i m not on government assitance money was diverted from programs addressing social needs and poured into the weapons industry in the form of cost plus profits contracts lessee let s pull out the old almanac in total u s government budget outlays were billion dollars in est they were trillion dollars an increase of approx billion dollars in national defense cost billion dollars in it was billion dollars and increase of billion dollars that leaves an increase of billion dollars unaccounted for this represented an increase of in income security which includes retirement programs housing assitance and unemployment benefits and i believe welfare cost billion dollars in it was billion dollars or more than national defense started this represented an increase of in the federal government spent billion dollars on medicare in they spent billion dollars an increase of in the feds spent billion dollars on housing credits and subsidies of that like in it was billion in health care services and research was billion dollars in it was billion dollars agriculture up billion to billion science up billion to billion resource conservation up billion to billion education up billion to billion veteran benefits up billion to billion trasnportation up billion to billion about the only things i see which was seriously decreased was under the energy category primarily under supply and community development in the area of disaster relief and between the two of them represent a loss of less than billion dollars where was this huge diversion in order to rectify this situation there must be constitutional revision not that s a stretch if the current government was pushed by the president to create this mess wouldn t one expect it to begin to equalize once the pressure is gone secondly the form of this revision must take account of the changed circumsatnces of the role of the federal government only assuming that the new role is a positive role we want to continue i see very little positive about it the constitution cannot be used to frustrate the democratic process the constitution was designed to frustrate the democratic process so that the voters could be absolutely sure they were getting what they wanted by the time it happened nor do i see putting the brakes on the democratic process an inherently bad thing califronia s riding the edge and every time they pull their ballot initiative nonsense it gets worse if the peoplr want to have welfare spending by the federal government they will have it sometimes or perhaps most of the time the people should be told no and pointed to their local government attempting to prevent this through constitutional trickery only leads to the constitution being brought into disrepute phill would you do me the very great favor of repeating that in talk politics guns methods will always be found to bypass such provisions and once the government gets used to bypassing those provisions they will bypass the others up to the first ammendment cute we can eliminate violations of the law by eliminating the law this is a major reason why the right to own guns should be excluded the implication that this right is equal to the right to free speech is dangerous free speech alone is dangerous phill people know that mass ownership of lethal weapons causes thousands of murders a year the dangerous conclusion they may reach is that the first ammendment may also be the same dangerous mistake ok phill all you gotta show me is a clear pattern of reduction in homicide rates across several countries and that ll be it not current mind you reduction note however that this is not the slippery slope argument it is because the right freedom of speech has been chained to the privilege to own weaponry that the danger arises the advocates of this pivilege must not be allowed to chain freedom of speech to their cause such that if they fall freedom of speech falls as well such actions are not the actions of people genuinely interested in freedom who s chaining anything to freedom of speech by calling it a freedom thirdly and most importantly i want to discover a mechanism wherby i can engender intellectual debate as opposed to totemic debate i consider the grave threat to civilisation to be the loss of the ability to reason about the political debate at anything other than the superficial level the objection i raise to your basing your case entirely on the assertion of the supremacy of the us constitution is that the currency of your argument is limited to the currency of the totem upon which it is based the danger of totems is that they can be reinterpreted in different ways by different people phill you re a master of subtly changing the subject i haven t based my argument against raw democracy on the constitution i ve tried to explain why it isn t a good idea the only time i ve referred to the constitution is to point out it doesn t contain the restrictions on the veto and the senate you appear to believe were meant but just didn t make it in there the constitution doesn t contain the fillibuster rule i only believe that the rule is a good idea you cn t dismiss that as venerating the constitution because it isn t in the constitution david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
talk.politics.misc	re race and violence joe as usual this issue of dysfunction of bad values of messed up culture is easily embraced by non african americans when it comes to explaining problems in our community from your post you apparently find the idea that something is wrong with african americans value wise culture wise or something very appealing i never cease to be amazed at how eager non african americans are to embrace theories about our problems which basically assert that something is wrong with us the socio economic factors which we know help to produce high crime levels like poverty which exists among us in large proportion i mean when it comes to discussion of african american problems we somehow become exempt from all these types of factors and the problem is laid at the doorstep of some neboulous dysfunction we supposedly have but nobody attributes crime amongst white americans to dysfunction no that has socioeconomic factors to it but for africa americans its gotta be a dysfunction basically i think this tendency for non african americans to believe that something is wrong with us exists because non african americans don t want to deal with the possiblility that the society is deeply biased against african americans and that this is about of the problem it could not possible be that the society is so deeply racist and structured against us that this has a very effective negative effect on us no something is wrong with us non african americans are quick to disregard what we have to say because they are so busy trying to find something wrong with us instead of taking a good hard look at the thing we say are doing us damage i would get angry if it werent so damn typical peace aaron
talk.politics.misc	re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes of course one again faces the question of how one circumscribes government power and keeps it circumscribed in a complex society when it is in the interest of neither capitalists nor consumers to refrain from using government power for their own ends but apart from that little conundrum without having a complete answer to this question i should think it obvious that the first step should be to convince people this would be a desirable result there are still quite a lot of people who feel that the command economies of eastern europe failed due to corruption rather than essential weaknesses of caommand economies and you still have a majority in this nation that favors keeping unenforced and unenforcible laws on the books in order to send a signal it would seem that a society with a failed government would be an ideal setting for libertarian ideals to be implemented now why do you suppose that never seems to occur i fail to see why you should feel this way in the first place constant combat isn t particularly conducive to intellectual theorizing also they tend to get invaded before they can come to anything like a stable society anyway regulation is such a vauge word i wouldn t call it vague i d call it elastic all regulation is not necessarily the same by opposing all government regulation some libertarians treat every system from a command economy to those that regulate relatively free markets as identical that s one reason many of the rest of us find their analysis to be simplistic umm is there any distinction between vague and elastic in this context aside from one having a more positive connotation than the other at any rate we ve been through all this before steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing about data it sure does cut uucp uunet isc br thor steveh the bulls t r hofferbert ma bell incidentally this is a libertarian newsgroup you can get away with saying bullshit here you re welcome mr grinch
talk.politics.misc	re to be or not to be a disaster in article philc ls a mea netcom com phil netcom com phil ronzone writes in article vega iii com rhockins enrico tmc edu russ writes in article philc ht h netcom com phil netcom com phil ronzone writes not at all you are apparently just another member of the religious left not at all i am not a member of the religious left right or even center in fact i don t consider myself very religious at all this will probably result in flames now in fact phil you should leave religion out of it it just clouds the issue the religous left worships trees rivers the planet and hates people and the religious right worships engines smokestacks landfills and hates people what does this name calling have to do with anything you are claiming about the truth of environmental disaster nothing that i have read in this thread nor heard from anyone i have talked to would suggest to me that people fit the definition you give of the religious left come off it phil a prime motivation for protecting our environment is so that we people can continue to live in it healthily we just disagree on what is necessary to maintaining a healthy environment for people show me all these environmental disasters most of them aren t and the natural disasters we have had individually far outweigh the man made ones russ s response deleted to save space i guess you missed the newspaper articles this week about exxon presenting evidnce through the astm on the issue of the valdez incident seems that valdez is mostly recovered despite the religious left s cries of hundreds of years what they have already repaired that old hulk wow i suppose you mean the alaskan shores that were devastated by the valdez accident i haven t seen the articles what do they say exactly has mostly all the ocean and shore life returned the sands are mostly as clean as they were before the microbial samples are mostly back to a normal balance the fish and fowl populations have mostly returned what then again the relgious left claimed it would take yearsb to put out the kuwait oil fires you should face the facts love canal was not and is not an environmental disaster nor even a problem nor is times beach and tmi and acid rain killing trees and not a problem would you move to three mile island i would imagine there is some cheap property available the naturally occurring catastrophic events disasters that destroy property ie hurricanes tornados earthquakes do not usually leave toxic wastes that prevent people from re building their lives there the man made disasters oil spills toxic dumping radioactive waste dispersions cause death and make an area unliveable far beyond the initial event there are actually people that still believe love canal was some kind of environmental disaster weird eh these opinions are mine and you can t have em but i ll rent em cheap douglas young dyoung ecst csuchico edu i don t know why but i seem to expect a serious discussion on the net
talk.politics.misc	re re fillibuster in article c ovfr c u dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker writes in article veal utkvm utk edu veal utkvm utk edu david veal writes if the senate was less powerful than the house of lords than we d almost have to state that the house of representatives was also in fact they both were because the british government had much greater power than did the american system in principle no in practice yes in principle no that they had less power of that they should have had less power the british parliament in principle has absolute power so does the monarch much of the stability of the system rests on what is not defined clearly in the case of a clear abuse by one side or the other the other side can act to remedy the situation two institutions with absolute power cute let s talk practicality shall we if the monarch tried to do something what would happen if they were to start from a social welfare model instead of the current no state subsidy motto they would be better placed as it is there is plenty of state money being handed out the problem is that it is distributed on the basis of power in congress and not on the basis of actual need bingo the higher up the governmental ladder the less actual need matters because political power can be concentrated at higher levels while people with less cloud only find themselves reduced to in effectiveness that was not my point but you illustrated the problem very well in order to set up a school project in new york state you have to pay off the other states with pork defense contracts agricultural subsidies etc or to be precise of the states since you need to beat the filibuster then why not simply leave new york s education to new york i remain unconcinved that there is any state in the union which is not capable of educating its own children if that s what they want to do the point is of redistribution of cash from the poor areas of the ecconomy to the rich ones i am contending that there is no state in the union which does not have ample wealth if they choose to spend it to run a perfectly acceptable education system i further contend that the amount of money being spent now is more then sufficient but is being spent badly or vice versa if you aren t a republican so tell me phill were the republicans also responsible for some of the huge increases in social programs or were they only responsible for what you don t like i contend it is congress which is to blame democrat and republican alike if society simply writes off any areas of the country that is ecconomically weak you end up with a basket case ecconomy there are inevitable cycles in any business some of these act in phase to produce the business cycle others are countercyclic localities can experience boom to bust cycles outside the national trend to produce a strong ecconomy you need to ensure that the bust areas do not fall bellow the level where they cannot be ecconomically rebuilt most of our worst areas are still better off than most of europe in any case we re talking about education if the industry in an area collapses the us as a whole still has a responsibility to ensure that the children in that area get a good education in some areas of the us schools are closing halfway through the year for lack of money yes i live in once such area you re woefully ignorant of the situation at the same time some of tennessee s school districts are closing down the governor asked for million dollars for bicentenntial celebration license plats in almost the same breath he wanted to raise unemployment compensation and reduce taxes which paid into it i don t know about the rest of the country but our education problems stem directly from two problems neither of which are a lack of money in the state btw tennessee is considered a tax heaven and our economy is one of the strongest in the country i see a correlation what money we spend goes primarly to administration the average administrator makes two and a half times what the average teacher makes and sucks up an enormous amount of revenue and the governor is making a concerted effort to create an education crisis in order to push for his pet income tax some of the most idiotic programs get funded like state funds for new art in the county seat while schools are closing it s not a lack of funds it s an unwillingness to spend them on what is more appropriate education is the parental hot button education is always the first to but cut because it s easier to get people to pay for their children than ugly art the u s constitution is a nuts and bolts document the delcaration of independence was the high brow reasoning there are a couple of other examples though such as the reasoning for the power to tax and the reasoning for the power to grant permits both in article i section the declaration on independence cam a decade earlier and has not a line of justification for the us constitution you could argue that it went into the broad concepts but little more it spoke very eloquently on government being based on the consent of the governed in fact it is little more than a protracted whinge more to do with the price of tea than the design of a government it would be a pretty daft idea for a bunch of guys to sit arround designing the structure of the new government while the little matter of the british army remained to be settled they did it anyway the continental congress had its own set of bylaws it wasn t quite a government but a means of making decisions had to be created however low george washington s opinion of them were to a certain extend i do believe the veto has become something it wasn t intended however i also believe it is inevitable considering the congress own abuse of their power to make bills say whatever they want them to say unlike most people i think we shouldn t be worrying about the veto which is fine but of the problem in congress which almost necessitates its abuse the congress is the most democratic body in the whole system allow me again to speak heresy against the holy democratic orders so what the government was built with a very non democratic presidency with fairly broad powers including the veto it has not only the fairest system of election but the two year term means that the members have always got a recent mandate yes and the senate was intended to act as a balance to this too much democracy was intentionally avoided it was considered a good thing to place non democratic blocks to impulsive action on the other hand if the period of election were to be made years in antiphase to the presidential cycle there would be much less dependence on fund raising from special interests than there is at present so long as congress has something to sell people will pay for it most congressmen rake in more money than they need why not what is inherently wrong with biasing the system against action historically governemnt action in the u s when dealing with issues with a bare minority and a large minority have not been successful when you re in a position of imposing federal power on diverse people why should the federal government not have to got through something more than a bare majority in other words david thinks that the reactionaries should need only votes while progressives should need no if the progressives don t want the reactionaries to move backward they get the same benefit of the states is a lot of people and historically laws with that sort of minority arent very effective especially since it is usually geographically concentrated when wielding the federal big stick i don t see why they shouldn t have to make a better argument than more people than not agree now we know why nobody calls the republicans democrats i m not a republican i m a republican and no i m neither a democrat nor a democrat now i ve asked several times and all you ve done is answer it isn t democratic which i knew before i said it why should it be democratic we don t have a true direct democracy and few people advocate one why then is this other modification of democracy to bias it against action so much worse david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
talk.politics.misc	re diplomat license plates in article apr linus mitre org m mwunix mitre org james meritt writes automobiles belonging to personnel associated with the embassies from various nations have diplomatic license plates they are red white and blue and read dll where l is a letter and the s are numbers the d means diplomatic and the l s indicate which country a few years ago the actually teh d means the registered driver has diplomatic immunity that means they can do as they damn well please on the roads and you have only god as your protection the state department issues saa xxx plates for personnel who work at the embassies but haven t been granted immunity most embassies have restricted parking for embassy personell street side the s plates allow them to use those parking areas as well as the restricted lots at national and state dept without a lot of crap pat
talk.politics.misc	re eight myths about national health insurance pt ii in article apr news columbia edu gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes the difference in the litigation environment is reflected in the fees lack of defensive medicine and near absence of malpractice is really why we spend less using the most expensive approach of pure insurance then why do we really need national health insurance then wouldn t it just make more sense to find some way to cut down on the cost of malpractice insurance and maybe that s not such a good thing i also read somewhere that it is next to impossible in canada to litigate against the health system class action suits are nearly impossible and you can t sue the provincial health officials at all part of the deal for using the all insurance approach like the french and germans do hey why don t they criticize france and germany is it because too many people take french and german in college to make the accusations stick was to preserve the doctors independance since the provincial wings of the cma are the ones that go to bat when the fee schedule hikes are presented the politically bent doctors were just cackling when they realized the cma would grow in strength rather than diminish especially when unopposed unlike in socialized medicine approaches like britain s national health service oh no don t let the ama know about this they have enough power as it is ask most americans whether they d like the doctors lobby to get more powerful for non life threatening things market arguments adequately cover why certain procedures are in scarcer demand i have md friends who can t make a living as specialists back in manitoba not due to the insurance rates but because they won t get enough customers the cma medical monopoly s grip on doctors licencing as in the us aside so they must move to larger places however this does not refute debunking of waiting lines for urgent and routine care as has been done in the u s by consumers reports health policy studies cited by prof dennis e shea on usenet cnn nyt etc well yeah tell us about the national defense medical centre outside ottawa theoretically it s limited to service personnel but some studies i ve heard about have suggested that about half the patients there are civilians who not only have connections but aren t urgent at all the problem is in a system where hospitals annual budgets are approved by the government how do you keep political considerations out of medical decisions i bet that if you re an mp or mpp or good friends with one you re put on any hospital s urgent care list no matter how minor your problem which is ok unless you re someone who gets bumped off the list for some bigshot wouldn t national health insurance mean that americans who are now fully insured might have to settle for less in canada provincial insurance covers all health costs except dental care eyeglasses prescription drugs ambulance service and private hospital rooms so many canadians do end up buying some private insurance a policy to cover all of these things runs about to a month hmm how much difference would it make in the figure of percentage of gnp spent on health care if dentistry and optometry were included in the accounting maybe canada spends proportionately just as much on health care as we do of course the one thing to note is that in the canada france germany case private insurance offloaded the basic coverage to the public sector they realized they were keeping low risk high profit extra insurance for things like private semi private rooms vs ward accomodation dental glasses etc for corporate or personal benefits they ll have nothing to do with you if you want to be covered for basic care at that point they wouldn t even consider a voucher approach to broker the universal coverage and sell policies to make up the difference in the federal guidelines and market stuff so what happens if the health care systems financially collapse bob rae the second least popular man in ontario warned ontarians a few years ago that if they didn t stop cross border shopping in such huge numbers the services they expect from the province just won t be there in a few years fortunately for them and less fortunately for the retailers here in western new york the canadian dollar went back to a more realistic value he didn t say so but i knew he meant the ohip what would happen if his warning turned out to be the truth would the private insurers take up the slack they d be under no obligation to of course they could eventually make money again but if what you say is true they d be loathe to do so and out of practice in handling such basic services too wouldn t free care encourage people to run to the doctor for every ache and pain people who get free treatment do go to the doctor and hospital about a third more often than those who have to pay a share of their medical bills still canadians who pay nothing at the doctor s have a lower per person health bill than we do it is free in that there are no deductibles nor copayments two things which i advocate to make the canadian insurance look more like real health insurance which actually it is i know that when working in alberta ontario and quebec i was aware that i was paying for health insurance e g in toronto ohip fees were listed on my pay stub manitoba did not collect at paycheque time but only annually at income tax time built into the tax rate only fiscal naifs will proclaim that it s free along with the canadian left for that is part of their brainwashing agenda would that it were free americans would start another revolution if they had to pay taxes at canadian rates isn t the private health insurance industry just too big and powerful to kill dismantling the health segment of our insurance industry would be politically thorny in the quiet words of one advocate for a national plan some firms now sell more than billion in health insurance they d put up a hard fight not only has the industry grown eightfold since canada shut down its own health insurers but our government leaves politicians more open to lobbyists than does canada s parliamentary system health insurance does exist in canada and in western europe its just that it doesn t cover basic care you can opt out in canada and germany but you ll have to go uninsured as a result because there are too few other people that do so i e no market when private insurance realized how much money they d make without the risks involved in basic insurance e g neurosurgery versus deluxe amenities e g having to call granada tv to replace a rental set on the fritz in someone s private hospital room they started to pat themselves on the back for their social responsibility in quebec last spring a consortium of private insurers publicly warned against any thoughts of privatizing routine low cost parts of that province s public health insurance plan again i doubt americans would like giving the insurance companies that much power i half wonder if the canadian health insurers didn t go along with the provinces and the federal government years ago because they knew that there was a good chance of the public system going bust in the long run and then afterwards they could clean up okay this sort of contradicts what i said higher up but it s another possibility they d have an added bonus when arguing against government involvement in their industry as they could then point to its failure instead of just citing theoretical principles
talk.politics.misc	re abolish selective service william fractl tn cornell edu writes in article apr m harvard edu borden head cfa harvard edu dave borden writes the selective service registration should be abolished to start with the draft is immoral whether you agree with that or not we don t have one now and military experts agree that the quality of the armed forces is superior with a volunteer army than with draftees finally the government has us on many lists in many computers the irs social security admistration and motor vehicle registries to name a few and it can find us if it needs to maintaining yet another list of people is an utter waste of money and time let s axe this whole department and reduce the deficit a little bit dave borden borden m harvard edu you selfish little bastard afraid you might have to sacrafice somthing for your country what someone not approve a lone for you to bad what is immoral is people like you and the current president who don t have any idea why this country still exists after years this country still exists after years because the people have to be forced by the government to fight in foreign wars i don t think so bill
talk.politics.misc	re kyle k on rodney king in qqfam ogh usenet ins cwru edu aa cleveland freenet edu vern morrison writes in a previous article kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu koppenhoefer kyle cramm says thf kimbark uchicago edu ted frank writes in article c lp y fdk news cso uiuc edu kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu koppenhoefer kyle cramm writes how about the fact that you have a bunch of cops putting their lives on the line day in and day out who are afraid as hell of a large black guy that took a large amount of punishment and refused submit i m curious why you think that particular adjective is important i m curious why you took a beign statement and cross posted it to several different news groups including something along the lines of alt discrimination look rodney king is black and large i have several large black male friends and they are referred to as being large black men to their faces and by themselves you know ted i have a large number of adjectives for you but i will spare you most of them because i try not to get into personal flame wars let me just say that i think your action of cross posting this was total bs and you re trying to start some crap hopefully others will see through your trite little game and not play along you still haven t addressed ted s statement we re waiting yeah i m also curious as to why you felt compelled to remind us of the guy s race btw i don t mean to imply that you re clueless or anything but the statement was hardly benign hokh ton the crystal wind is the storm mdouglas netcom com and the storm is data michael douglas llyr and the data is life player s litany the long run
talk.politics.misc	re high speed rail is bad in article apr pony ingres com garrett ingres com the sky already fell now what writes i didn t see your post so i can t comment on it my on high speed rail is i like it i like it alot it would be too bad to see it tainted by corruption that s all the speed limit on commuter tracks in the northeast is mph we already have something that resembles high speed rail in this country and it requires massive government subsidies we don t need another government boondoggle john f haugh ii pgp s cs utexas edu rpp jfh ma bell dof s jfh rpp cactus org look up ponzi scheme in a good dictionary it will have a picture of joe liberal handout right next to it stop federal spending cut the deficit
talk.politics.misc	re we re from the government and we re here to help you in article apr infonode ingr com albeaj jima b d ingr com jim albea writes in article mar isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes ouch now that really hurts i m being accused of no breadth nor depth to my historical knowledge because i m unwilling to agree that economic inequality leads to poverty and from there to social and political instability you go read your history again poverty is the main engine of social instability in this context we ll put aside religious turmoil mass migrations etc well the fact of the matter is that poverty is imperfectly related to social and political instability while economic inequality is much more strongly related in virtually all major revolutions including england the puritan revolution france russia and china the revolutions occurred as economies were undergoing substantial long term growth and poverty was declining what sets off revolutions is massive inequality coupled with a perception on the part of those at the bottom that social change is possible if poverty were the main engine of social instability this typical historical pattern would not hold in fact revolutions would have been far more typical before the nineteenth century than since that time much deleted gee jim if you ll check the constitution you ll find in order to promote the general welfare do ordain and establish this constitution i m surprised you missed it it s right there in the first paragraph i would have thought you would have made it at least through the preamble you almost got it right and it was a good try but you should follow your own advice the preamble to the constitution does read as you have quoted but let us not forget that after all it is only the preamble it is not a binding part of the constitution and carries no weight in the law that poor tortured paragraph has got to be one of the most unfortunate passages in the english language witness the legions of blowhards like yourself who think those vague flowery phrases are part of the law of the land do you really believe that a politician only has to give lip service to promoting the general welfare to be within the limits of the constitution sorry buddy but some other blowhards managed to include the general welfare in another portion of the constitution article i section the congress shall have the power to lay and collect taxes to pay the debts and provide for the common defence and general welfare of the united states i guess they wanted to make sure everyone understood they meant what they said in the preamble just to make sure you ve got the point let s do a little experiment what if the constitution read as follows preamble we the people to promote the general welfare do ordain and establish this constitution for the united states of america constitution the federal government shall have one function and one function only to provide for the defense of the nation but as noted above the constitution doesn t say that does it the government would not then have two functions defense and welfare but since it explicitly includes both the general welfare and defense in article i section i guess you ll grant that botha are constitutional functions right jsh steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing about data it sure does cut uucp uunet isc br thor steveh the bulls t r hofferbert ma bell
talk.politics.misc	re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate in article apr tijc uucp pjs tijc uucp paul schmidt writes steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes in article apr tijc uucp pjs tijc uucp paul schmidt writes it is a failure of libertarianism if the ideology does not provide any reasonable way to restrain such actions other than utopian dreams society would collapse if most people were evil most of the time david bergland agreed if people are basically evil the last thing you d want is a big government staffed by those evil folks exercising control over you david bergland agreed freedom seems to have unleashed the creative energies of the people and leads to ever higher levels of income and social progress u n report agreed the argument is not between those who want limited government and those who want unlimited government it is between those who believe government regulation in a capitalist economy serves worthwhile ends and those who believe such regulation is neither desirable on empirical grounds nor justifiable on ideological grounds good summary selling your labor or goods so that you can eat and buy a house is essential so that you can excercise your personal freedoms paul schmidt advocates for self government davy crockett chapter president and this demonstrates i assume that you re a liberal steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing about data it sure does cut uucp uunet isc br thor steveh the bulls t r hofferbert ma bell
talk.politics.misc	re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate in article apr venus tamu edu gmw venus tamu edu mr grinch writes in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes it would seem that a society with a failed government would be an ideal setting for libertarian ideals to be implemented now why do you suppose that never seems to occur i fail to see why you should feel this way in the first place constant combat isn t particularly conducive to intellectual theorizing also they tend to get invaded before they can come to anything like a stable society anyway and the reason that the soviet union couldn t achieve the ideal of pure communism was the hostility of surrounding capitalist nations uh huh somehow this all sounds familiar once again utopian dreams are confronted by the real world mr grinch steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing about data it sure does cut uucp uunet isc br thor steveh the bulls t r hofferbert ma bell
talk.politics.misc	re eight myths about national health insurance pt ii v pxgt ubvmsb cc buffalo edu daniel b case writes gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes the difference in the litigation environment is reflected in the fees lack of defensive medicine and near absence of malpractice is really why we spend less using the most expensive approach of pure insurance and maybe that s not such a good thing i also read somewhere that it is next to impossible in canada to litigate against the health system class action suits are nearly impossible and you can t sue the provincial health officials at all since our doctors are private and the system is just an insurance plan litigation would not involve the insurance fund our lawyers do not work on contingency so that if you were to sue for malpractice then you d better be sure of winning to cover your fees likewise if you were a doctor and subject of a suit it s time to sweat since the provincial wings of the cma are the ones that go to bat when the fee schedule hikes are presented the politically bent doctors were just cackling when they realized the cma would grow in strength rather than diminish especially when unopposed unlike in socialized medicine approaches like britain s national health service oh no don t let the ama know about this they have enough power as it is ask most americans whether they d like the doctors lobby to get more powerful a few weeks ago the president of the canadian ma wrote a letter to the nyt to decry a lobbyist s advert repeating the same old trash this is significant because the ama and the cma are interlinked organizations and he would not have done it without the approval of his ama cronies well yeah tell us about the national defense medical centre outside ottawa theoretically it s limited to service personnel but some studies i ve heard about have suggested that about half the patients there are civilians who not only have connections but aren t urgent at all it serves the same purpose as the bethesda naval hospital since not all hospitals can provide everything maybe they have some stuff that others don t ottawa s population is only a quarter million if you include the surrounding counties the problem is in a system where hospitals annual budgets are approved by the government how do you keep political considerations out of medical decisions i bet that if you re an mp or mpp or good friends with one you re put on any hospital s urgent care list no matter how minor your problem which is ok unless you re someone who gets bumped off the list for some bigshot people of influence will get their way in any system american or european it s the golden rule he who has the gold makes the rules as for annual budgets those are actually annual grants for facilities e g mops pans etc given to hospitals of which most are private nonprofit foundations btw i have no problem with having aggressive for profit hospitals like the french who use our approach but in the paris region they have almost as many people as canada does so their market is much more diverse the rest has to be made up for by billings from patients who use their services wouldn t national health insurance mean that americans who are now fully insured might have to settle for less in canada provincial insurance covers all health costs except dental care eyeglasses prescription drugs ambulance service and private hospital rooms so many canadians do end up buying some private insurance a policy to cover all of these things runs about to a month hmm how much difference would it make in the figure of percentage of gnp spent on health care if dentistry and optometry were included in the accounting maybe canada spends proportionately just as much on health care as we do the gdp figures are combined public and private expenditures for total outlay and are compiled use the same methods by the oecd that yield the figure for the u s so what happens if the health care systems financially collapse how they are collecting premiums and i m an advocate of having copayments like the french do in their system in order to make it look more like the real insurance that it is the private doctors and hospitals will still be there after the insurance hypothically disappears as they were there before it appeared bob rae the second least popular man in ontario warned ontarians a few years ago that if they didn t stop cross border shopping in such huge numbers the services they expect from the province just won t be there in a few years for one thing i think that bob rae is an idiot he didn t say so but i knew he meant the ohip most of ohip comes from separate premiums on your paycheck if you are a player he wants to spend our money on other things than the health insurance our high taxes are high for other spending but health insurance which is separate and optional and it is being spent in a nonpartisan manner by every party ohip is just a health insurance plan it does not provide any kind of health care that is up to you and your private doctors would the private insurers take up the slack they d be under no obligation to of course they could eventually make money again but if what you say is true they d be loathe to do so and out of practice in handling such basic services too some of the companies providing extra insurance are subsidiaries of american companies and their parents provide full insurance down here regardless all firms up north can easily turn on cable tv to see how well the american firms are doing by being involved in basic coverage the private firms are making too much money after having gotten rid of basic coverage they run around patting them selves on the back for their own cooperation in providing extras for those people who deserve it when private insurance realized how much money they d make without the risks involved in basic insurance e g neurosurgery versus deluxe amenities e g having to call granada tv to replace a rental set on the fritz in someone s private hospital room they started to pat themselves on the back for their social responsibility in quebec last spring a consortium of private insurers publicly warned against any thoughts of privatizing routine low cost parts of that province s public health insurance plan again i doubt americans would like giving the insurance companies that much power i half wonder if the canadian health insurers didn t go along with the provinces and the federal government years ago because they knew that there was a good chance of the public system going bust in the long run and then afterwards they could clean up okay this sort of contradicts what i said higher up but it s another possibility they d have an added bonus when arguing against government involvement in their industry as they could then point to its failure instead of just citing theoretical principles i agree they were in a win win situation but right now it seems that they have won bigger when you look at how full their coffers are friends from my sisters mba class were still being flown out for job interviews individually with insurance firms in london on canada s insurance capitol a la hartford along with generous expense privileges this year despite the ongoing post recession blues gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
talk.politics.misc	re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes in article apr rigel tamu edu gmw rigel tamu edu mr grinch writes in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes of course one again faces the question of how one circumscribes government power and keeps it circumscribed in a complex society when it is in the interest of neither capitalists nor consumers to refrain from using government power for their own ends but apart from that little conundrum this is a difficult problem for which there is no obviously good solution one approach is simply to try and move political opinion and hope a new more libertarian consensus lasts for a while another approach is to try and amend the constitution the original constitution restrained the u s government from economic intervention for to years depending on just how one wants to count it the first amendment though weakened in many ways still restrains government particularly state and local even though on many particular issues the majority is in favor of censorship i think libertarians would be happy with another years of restraint via an amendment or two not that i think that s likely to happen not necessarily mr hendricks but other posters seem to see this as a problem with libertarianism that it cannot be stable that might be true but it is not an objection to libertarianism per se if a libertarian political consensus forms for a decade or two and then falls apart again we would just be back where we are now this is unlike the case for socialism where a socialist consensus that held for a while and then fell apart would not leave us where we are now but instead with lots of bureaucracy that would be hard to get rid of if not tyranny as the end condition of a strong socialist consensus ervan darnell ervan cs rice edu
talk.politics.misc	malpractice not the issue was re myths about national health in article c p hx e acsu buffalo edu v pxgt ubvmsb cc buffalo edu daniel b case writes in article apr news columbia edu gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes the difference in the litigation environment is reflected in the fees lack of defensive medicine and near absence of malpractice is really why we spend less using the most expensive approach of pure insurance then why do we really need national health insurance then wouldn t it just make more sense to find some way to cut down on the cost of malpractice insurance it would if malpractice and defensive medicine were the main factors in explaining spiralling us health care costs but they aren t although gary is correct in noting that malpractice related problems are greater in the us than canada they by no means account for the overall difference in health care costs they do account for a somewhat larger portion of the difference in physicians gross income in the two countries some facts malpractice insurance and awards account for less than of total health care costs in the us in according to a survey of physicians conducted by a national medical journal physicians averaged paying of their practice receipts in malpractice insurance malpractice insurance premiums and malpractice awards peaked in they ve declined significantly since then at the same time health care costs have increased more than any period in history as far as defensive medicine is concerned the ama estimates that its total impact is about billion per year that s about of the total current increase in health care costs and the estimate is from a group that could be expected to overestimate the impacts of defensive medicine on health care as small a problem as this is in the overall scheme of things however clinton has been on record for a long time favoring an indemnification of md s against malpractice suits if they follow procedures set by their specialties this would eliminate most if not all frivolous suits while retaining the ability to sue for true malpractice jsh steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing about data it sure does cut uucp uunet isc br thor steveh the bulls t r hofferbert ma bell
talk.politics.misc	re kyle k on rodney king in article c nh hp news cso uiuc edu kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu koppenhoefer kyle cramm writes thf kimbark uchicago edu ted frank writes in article c lp y fdk news cso uiuc edu kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu koppenhoefer kyle cramm writes how about the fact that you have a bunch of cops putting their lives on the line day in and day out who are afraid as hell of a large black guy that took a large amount of punishment and refused submit i m curious why you think that particular adjective is important i m curious why you took a beign statement and cross posted it to several different news groups including something along the lines of alt discrimination exsqueeze me i saw your original post in alt discrimination your post was cross posted to three groups my followup was cross posted to two of those three omitting soc motss now instead of engaging in meta discussion off the topic could you answer the question posed if your statement is so beign you should have no trouble politely responding to a polite query ted frank thf kimbark uchicago edu i m sorry the card says moops the u of c law school standard disclaimers
talk.politics.misc	re temper tantrums from the s ok phil you re right so far the evidence suggests that nixon was a victim of overzealous underlings and kennedy was a womanizing disgust o blob with a dash of megalomania after crushing the cia and fbi who s to say kennedy wouldn t have created his own version of american friendly fascism unfortunately however we don t have all the evidence so far this nation s citizens have been privy to about hours of the total hours of nixon s tapes what s on the rest of those babies some archivists have alluded that there is evidence to suggest that nixon and his cronies including george bush were aware of the plot to murder kennedy before he was shot in dallas ask your local d a what the charges are for the above crime and so i must ask you phil me putz when all this shit finally comes out when you and i are old men i would appreciate the privilege of sticking a pole up your ass and parading you down main street with a sign on your chest i was an apologist for the american fascist regime circa how s that for a lovely brecht ian image there that ought to get a reaction unless i m in his killfile this week mpa
talk.politics.misc	re temper tantrums from the s in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes what they broke in the dnc for is still open to serious question some tape archivists suggest what they were after had something to do with the kennedy assasination let s hear all of the tapes real soon shall we mpa
talk.politics.misc	re abolish selective service dave borden borden head cfa harvard edu wrote the selective service registration should be abolished to start with the draft is immoral whether you agree with that or not we don t have one now and military experts agree that the quality of the armed forces is superior with a volunteer army than with draftees finally the government has us on many lists in many computers the irs social security admistration and motor vehicle registries to name a few and it can find us if it needs to maintaining yet another list of people is an utter waste of money and time let s axe this whole department and reduce the deficit a little bit more gridlock talk from another relic of the past the selective service system creates jobs and is an investment in the future of america and whats wrong with that we need jobs because at this point in the recovery the economy should have generated billion jobs and since it has not the government has to step in and help shutting down selective service would cost good jobs and we can t do that what we really need is to involve selective service in a more closely directed manner we need the selective service involved in environmental protection high speed rail commuter aircraft civil rights national service and health care every dollar we put into selective service now will get us less spending in future i really believe now to think about it that selective service is long past due for the creation of a cabinet position your not beyond hope just get back on america s side and start doing your part for change what bill needs from you now is support for the economic stimulus and health care reform you need to devote all your energies to fighting gridlock and supporting change get on the team after all the evil has been banished from washington and the time for complaint is past being neccessary and remember bill clinton cares he may someday even have a town meeting in your city if your an appropriate sort of person if you phrase your questions properly and show the proper respect and awe you might have the chance to ask mr president your question in person
talk.politics.misc	re rnitedace and violence i am glad that you recognize that people should not engage in denial and repression and should acknowledge such the united states with its people have recognized that repression has taken place with the loss and outright abrogation of civil liberties and constitutional protections of citizens this recognition has taken the form of the civil rights law let s just discuss the federal level for now such as usc et seq usc et seq et al with this recognition of repression at times manifested in the form of collective guilt i want people to recognize denial though it can be said that white people numerically commit more crimes in the united states because white people are a majority it can also be said that black people commit a disproportionate amount of crime in the united states in their relation to their numbers in population my views are out of experiences when i was a police officer in a large metropolitan area and of a citizen unless people account for their behavior and for the behavior of their immediate community nothing will improve regards neal
talk.politics.misc	re top ten excuses for slick willie s record setting disapproval rati in article emoryu cc emory edu libwca emory edu bill anderson writes shapiro sofbas enet dec com steve shapiro writes oh and btw its william jefferson blythe clinton no it s not and i really fail to understand the use of that name as an insult do you feel that being adopted implies some sort of moral failing no it s a sign of aristocrtic out of touchness with the middle class you ask george herbert walker bush about that and that s not his full name what then is it even quayle had his honeymoon period it lasted a full hours after he was chosen as bush s running mate kevin j podsiadlik vaporware engineer nd class this contribution the president wants e mail hampton ais org us to make is it tax deductible compuserve larry wright
talk.politics.misc	re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes in article apr venus tamu edu gmw venus tamu edu mr grinch writes in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes it would seem that a society with a failed government would be an ideal setting for libertarian ideals to be implemented now why do you suppose that never seems to occur i fail to see why you should feel this way in the first place constant combat isn t particularly conducive to intellectual theorizing also they tend to get invaded before they can come to anything like a stable society anyway and the reason that the soviet union couldn t achieve the ideal of pure communism was the hostility of surrounding capitalist nations uh huh somehow this all sounds familiar once again utopian dreams are confronted by the real world steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com steve you re the one who suggested that a failed government should be an ideal proving ground i never felt that way in the first place quite the contrary i think a better proving ground would be someplace that already had a governemnt that would prevent outright acts of agression yet had a strong spirit of individualism and initiative someplace like texas mr grinch
talk.politics.misc	re kyle k on rodney king thf kimbark uchicago edu ted frank writes in article c nh hp news cso uiuc edu kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu koppenhoefer kyle cramm writes thf kimbark uchicago edu ted frank writes in article c lp y fdk news cso uiuc edu kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu koppenhoefer kyle cramm writes how about the fact that you have a bunch of cops putting their lives on the line day in and day out who are afraid as hell of a large black guy that took a large amount of punishment and refused submit i m curious why you think that particular adjective is important i m curious why you took a beign statement and cross posted it to several different news groups including something along the lines of alt discrimination exsqueeze me i saw your original post in alt discrimination your post was cross posted to three groups my followup was cross posted to two of those three omitting soc motss now instead of engaging in meta discussion off the topic could you answer the question posed if your statement is so beign you should have no trouble politely responding to a polite query well i don t think your query was exactly polite but i will try to give you a polite responce something atypical of the net but here it goes black is a descriptive adjective that describes mr king from many of the newspaper radio and tv news reports i have seen this adjective is commonly in front of his name i have never seen anyone complain about the use of this adjective when used in a benign manner i did not say that mr king was a no good black i do not know mr king and would not make this ascertian without some evidence to this effect i used it purely as a descriptive adjective in the same manner than many most news people have used it in the past the entire second trial was about race ted i don t feel compelled to discuss mr king s racial background but had mr king been white there would not have been a second trial you probably are saying that the beating would not have occurred if he were white but that is an extremely difficult call to make it is possible the case but not definately i still think your actions are crap ted they are far more divisive than me using the adjective black in a non derogenory manner would you have been happier if i had used african american if so then you really are lost in the world of pc you have already been instrumental in getting one persons net access revoked and i wonder if you have sent a copy of my message to my sys admin with a plea that i am not worthy of posting the way you went about this polite inquiry makes me believe it was anything but
talk.politics.misc	re anyone interested in facts here s a few oops i forgot to set read permission it s fixed now ftp netcom com login anonymous password your email address cd pub mvp binary get clinton zip you need pkzip x or the latest net zip to un deflate this economic stats since day one plus all of the myriad ways slick willie and the gang of are preparing to do it to us from ron brown s desk so any distortion is pro democrat can you believe it let s face it when it comes to utilities microsoft has mike van pelt performed about as well as a savings and loan these are mvp netcom com the guys remember who put backup and restore not to mvp lsil com mention edlin on your hard disk lincoln spector
talk.politics.misc	re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes i m not sure why you don t consider it an option no one suggests that such analysis should be left to regulators in fact the re inventing government movement provides just such a cost benefit approach to the analysis of public spending libertarians would do well to learn more about it okay let me try to explain this when one votes for such a creature as a senator or worse yet a president one votes not for specific policies but for a general package which must cover all issues for or years as such one s influence is highly diluted i might add that even if one were free to vote on individual regulations the vast amount of time required for considering a particular regulation combined with the very small chance of one s vote making a difference would make it unreasonable to expect the voter to make an intelligent decision with respect to specific regulations sorry but it strikes me that it is the only feasible approach what is not feasible is a wholesale attack on all government regulation and licensing that treats cutting hair and practicing medicine as equivalent tasks i m not sure what you mean by feasible in this case do you mean that are impossible in priciple or merely that it would be undesirable in fact actually the only areas of public spending above that strike me as generating substantial support among libertarians are police and defense of the four you saw fit to mention and education of minors is always another possibility since minors are generally considered not to be responsible to make their own decisions as adults are it is an interesting aside that as committed as libertarians claim to be to a principle of non coercion the only areas of public spending that they frequently support involve hiring people with guns hmmm you say this as if it were surprising yet in fact a necessary consequence of libertarian philosophy all non coersive functions should be dealt with privately therefore it follows that the only functions remaining to the state are the coersive ones perhaps you have may i suggest that you consider that revolutionaries frequently generate support by acting as protectors of geezers mothers and children governments that ignore such people on the grounds that we don t have much to fear from them do so at their own peril much more likely it s drunken teenagers the groups in questionare more likely to be worse off during and after a revolution than before in the unlikely event that you missed my earlier sarcasm let me say this directly the idea that such programs as social security or afdc should be considered defense an idea which has been advanced in ths and other newsgroups is so absurd a lie as to be unworthy of consideration do you seriously dispute this i don t want to seem patronizing but you still seem to be laboring under the delusion that under a socialized economic system it is reasonably intelligent and honest persons like yourself who make the decisions i feel any third party added to a transaction is every bit as likely to be ignorant or corrupt as the buyer or seller i don t expect you to agree with me but you explain why you feel i m wrong mr grinch
talk.politics.misc	re nc vs hunt marine gay bashing in wilmington nc verdict in article qp juinngu senator bedfellow mit edu wdstarr athena mit edu william december starr writes in article apr lynx dac northeastern edu tfarrell lynx dac northeastern edu thomas farrell said a good case a f king good case the defense lawyer asked the victim questions like what kind of sexual perversions do you participate in and you think he made a good case speaking as someone who s only about six weeks and a tuition bill away from becoming an unemployed slob with a law degree i d really like to see a transcript of this trial i d especially like to know what happened immediately after the defense attorney asked that question assuming that the reports that he did so are accurate i m not accusing tom farrell of making anything up but this is the sort of case that spawns garbled misquotes false rumors and urban legends like tribbles it d be nice to think that the prosecutor objected irrelevant prejudicial inflammatory take your pick and that the judge upheld the objection i did hear this question asked during a radio news update of the case they were talking about the ongoing trial and had some audio clips immediately after the defense attorney asked the question there was an objection heard in the background the clip ended at that point so i don t know if the objection was upheld i can t imagine nc is that bad the arresting officer said the bastards told him they did it on purpose and hoped the victim would die and you think the defense made a good case no wonder we re losing we re aparently not trying to win again i d like to see the transcript i d read the latter bit of that in the news media the arresting officer testifying that one of the defendants calmly asked him about the condition of the homo and said that he hoped he d die but this is the first i ve heard of the officer testifying that one of the defendants actually said that he did anything at all let alone that he did it on purpose this i didn t hear as an audio clip but heard it reported a number of times on news stories both during and after the trial now the we did it on purpose thing is stretching i think it was something more like he had it coming if somebody else remebers better than i on this second point feel free to clarify frank frank r chloupek chloupek ohstpy mps ohio state edu department of physics the ohio state university not just any ohio state university there is only one hard and fast rule about the place to have a party somebody else s place p j o rourke
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage didn t the new study asked have you engaged in homosexual intercourse within the last two years whereas kinsey asked have you ever engaged or thought about engaging in homosexual activity sort of like the difference between did you have yogurt this morning and are you allergic to lactose michal impressive amounts of material can be accreted in this manner
talk.politics.misc	re anita hill giving out pubic hairs oh please prove it kaldis romulus rutgers edu theodore a kaldis writes in article mar zooid guild org goid zooid guild org will s eeves writes j lani herrmann we are wondering why the clinton administration is having so much trouble finding a suitable nominee for the post of attorney general when there is an obviously superior candidate we refer of course to prof anita hill michael friedman probably because if they pick her the republicans will investigate the rumors that she sometimes returned papers to her students with a couple of pubic hairs inserted between the pages while i m hardly one of prof hill s biggest fans i find this hard to believe could you please supply with a post preferably some proof of this ie newspaper articles documenting such allegations etc well your ignorance about this is unsurprising given you re a canadian and i m at a complete loss at to why you should be so interested in this given that it is an american issue which should properly be of absolutely no concern to you at all actually my interest in gender issues is not limited to international boundaries indeed i often exchange information with americans about issues which concern us in both countries in any event in answer to your question the following is taken from david brock s article the real anita hill published in the march issue of the american spectator this is taken from page ah someone had mentioned this journal but gave no further information but the most bizarre incident is alleged to have happened in the school year at oral roberts university according to a sworn affidavit dated october and filed with the senate judiciary committee in which lawrence shiles now a lawyer in tulsa recounted the following shortly after the class had begun professor hill gave us a written assignment which i completed and duly turned in when this assignment was passed out to the class after having been marked by the professor sitting next to me were fellow students jeffrey londoff and mark stewart upon opening the assignments and reviewing our grades and comments made by anita hill i found ten to twelve short black pubic hairs in the pages of my assignment i glanced over at jeff londoff s assignment and saw similar pubic hairs in his work at the time i made the statement to londoff that either she had a low opinion of our work or she had graded our assignment in the bathroom mark stewart overheard the conversation and said that he had similar pubic hairs in his assignment also this became the standing joke among many students for the remainder of the year in classes other students in that class confirmed the story londoff says he couldn t be certain that the hairs were pubic but he said he thought it was unlikely that they could have come from hill s head since they were short coarse and curly and hill had had the hair on her head straightened another student who saw the hair but did not want to be identified said of its origins you just know when you see it does this satisfy you yes thank you though i am really curious as to why this never came out at least not in what i saw up here in canada or on cnn which is sent up here during the thomas nomination hearings surely one would think that her claim to having been sexually harassed would have a great deal less credibility if it could be shown that she had herself been guilty of it or do you regard sworn statements given to a u s senate committee as equivalent to toilet paper ahemmm it depends for instance if it were the sworn statements at the warren commission then yes i would say that the statements were no better than toilet paper used at that but in most cases the answer would be no will steeves goid zooid guild org neil hull is goid zooid bbs toronto ontario the zoo of ids goids rule solve patriarchy install peterarchy peter j hanus b a upei slmr a scott me up beamy
talk.politics.misc	re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate in article apr venus tamu edu gmw venus tamu edu mr grinch writes in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes okay let me try to explain this when one votes for such a creature as a senator or worse yet a president one votes not for specific policies but for a general package which must cover all issues for or years as such one s influence is highly diluted i might add that even if one were free to vote on individual regulations the vast amount of time required for considering a particular regulation combined with the very small chance of one s vote making a difference would make it unreasonable to expect the voter to make an intelligent decision with respect to specific regulations i m afraid that i ve lost the thread here i didn t suggest that all government regulations be subject to referenda so i don t follow the comments above sorry but it strikes me that it is the only feasible approach what is not feasible is a wholesale attack on all government regulation and licensing that treats cutting hair and practicing medicine as equivalent tasks i m not sure what you mean by feasible in this case do you mean that are impossible in priciple or merely that it would be undesirable in fact i mean that an ideology that treats all government regulation as equally undesirable and seeks to abolish all regulations is unlikely to draw support among more than a miniscule portion of the electorate furthermore i am suggesting that such a plan is not feasible in an industrial society because the weight of litigation and or misery it would produce would effectively crush productive effort actually the only areas of public spending above that strike me as generating substantial support among libertarians are police and defense it is an interesting aside that as committed as libertarians claim to be to a principle of non coercion the only areas of public spending that they frequently support involve hiring people with guns hmmm you say this as if it were surprising yet in fact a necessary consequence of libertarian philosophy all non coersive functions should be dealt with privately therefore it follows that the only functions remaining to the state are the coersive ones no i m not surprised i just think it s interesting that on one hand libertarians assume a limited government can be decreed yet on the other posit an entire government made up of people who carry guns i realize that many libertarians assume that such a government will be counterbalanced by a fully armed citizenry but it is worth noting that widespread civilian ownership of guns does not necessarily prevent the establishment of totalitarian government e g iraq perhaps you have may i suggest that you consider that revolutionaries frequently generate support by acting as protectors of geezers mothers and children governments that ignore such people on the grounds that we don t have much to fear from them do so at their own peril much more likely it s drunken teenagers the groups in questionare more likely to be worse off during and after a revolution than before in the unlikely event that you missed my earlier sarcasm let me say this directly the idea that such programs as social security or afdc should be considered defense an idea which has been advanced in ths and other newsgroups is so absurd a lie as to be unworthy of consideration do you seriously dispute this yup sure do but since i also support the constitutional requirement that the government provide for the general welfare article i section i m willing to justify such programs on that basis i don t want to seem patronizing but you still seem to be laboring under the delusion that under a socialized economic system it is reasonably intelligent and honest persons like yourself who make the decisions i feel any third party added to a transaction is every bit as likely to be ignorant or corrupt as the buyer or seller i don t expect you to agree with me but you explain why you feel i m wrong well in the first place i don t support a socialized economic system i think within limits that capitalism is a fine idea but it is not the case that any third party is as likely to be ignorant or corrupt as the buyer or seller there are multitudes of examples where such a statement is demonstrably false regulation of stock market transactions that provide a reasonable basis for buyers to avoid fraud is only one example jsh mr grinch steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing about data it sure does cut uucp uunet isc br thor steveh the bulls t r hofferbert ma bell
talk.politics.misc	re bush s wi was clinton s wiretapping initiative in a previous article garrett ingres com the sky already fell now what says in article aa inet gw pa dec com blh uiboise idbsu edu broward l horne writes i guess your strength isn t in math clinton hasn t been president for months in other words it s bush s wiretapping initiative you re right i bailed out in diff eq nevertheless i would suggest to you that there is a difference between a proposed bill stalled in congress and a executive order crammed down our throats do you disagree i strongly urge you to consider moving any savings you have overseas into protected bank accounts while you are still able have you went to the post office on friday got my passport apps in my savings have already been converted
talk.politics.misc	re rnitedace and violence in article c ovg j magpie linknet com neal magpie linknet com neal said my views are out of experiences when i was a police officer in a large metropolitan area and of a citizen unless people account for their behavior and for the behavior of their immediate community nothing will improve wait a minute i agree with you that people have to take responsibility for their own behavior i assume that s what you meant by the word account but also for the behavior of their immediate community first of all how immediate are you talking about and secondly i have a lot of trouble with any theory of social behavior or justice which charges anyone with the duty of taking responsibility for or accounting for the actions of a different person william december starr wdstarr athena mit edu
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu ryan c scharfy writes actually i bet you more gay bi men are as not as promiscuous as gay men because more of them could have the option of living a straight life and with social pressures probably would at least try geez where have you been ryan i proposed this theory months ago let s take it one step further even if as the surveys show up to of all men have had a homosexual encounter then there must be an even larger percentage of people who have had homosexual erotic fantasies but if less than of the population is gay what can we say about these people who don t identify as gay but have demonstrated gay potential obviously a large chunk of these people chose or more accurately were forced to choose by force of religion and social sanction to put those feelings aside to be heterosexual obviously cramer and kaldis fall into this category these people are the ones who are so hung up on choice obviously since they chose everyone must have and homosexuals are just flaunting their perversion by choosing not to go along with what society has dictated of course i m that most awful of perverts i chose i gleefully admit that i was heterosexual until i met the right man and chose to indulge in my homoerotic potential take that elf elf halcyon com elf sternberg the purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas obscure pure reasoning and inhibit clarity with a little pratice writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog bill watterson s calvin
talk.politics.misc	re abolish selective service in article qpvj dfp fitz tc cornell edu william fractl tn cornell edu said in response to dave borden you selfish little bastard afraid you might have to sacrafice somthing for your country what someone not approve a lone for you to bad what is immoral is people like you and the current president who don t have any idea why this country still exists after years william if the reason that this country still stands after years is that it uses military conscription to force young men to fight for causes that they don t believe in strongly enough to volunteer for military service in support of then perhaps the fact that the country is still standing is not good news william december starr wdstarr athena mit edu
talk.politics.misc	re clinton s wiretapping initiative in a previous article helfman aero org robert s helfman says in article aa inet gw pa dec com blh uiboise idbsu edu broward l horne writes if you look through this newsgroup you should be able to find clinton s proposed wiretapping initiative for our computer networks and telephone systems this initiative has been up before congress for at least the past months in the guise of the fbi wiretapping bill what kind of brainless clod posted the above garbage would they be what kind of brainless clod doesn t understand the difference between a proposed bill blocked in congress and an executive order issued by clinton and crammed down our throats here let me give a remedial course in thinking in order to create the appearance of low interest rates uncle sam has shifted his debt from long term to short term securities in effect uncle sam has transformed the federal goverment into one giant s l waiting to blow short term rates rise interest payments on deficit rise uncle sammy has to borrow more causing short term rates to rise uncle sammy gets caught in a positive feedback loop his options i raise taxes a truly unimaginable amount ii make truly unimaginable spending cuts results of i large numbers of pissed off citizens results of ii large numbers of pissed off citizens uncle sammy has thoughtfully taken the initiative to pre empt the use of communication newtworks to foster a nation wide grassroots uprising
talk.politics.misc	re kyle k on rodney king in article c peay m news cso uiuc edu kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu koppenhoefer kyle cramm writes thf kimbark uchicago edu ted frank writes in article c lp y fdk news cso uiuc edu kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu koppenhoefer kyle cramm writes how about the fact that you have a bunch of cops putting their lives on the line day in and day out who are afraid as hell of a large black guy that took a large amount of punishment and refused submit i m curious why you think that particular adjective is important black is a descriptive adjective that describes mr king from many of the newspaper radio and tv news reports i have seen this adjective is commonly in front of his name i have never seen anyone complain about the use of this adjective when used in a benign manner i did not say that mr king was a no good black i do not know mr king and would not make this ascertian without some evidence to this effect i used it purely as a descriptive adjective in the same manner than many most news people have used it in the past no one is questioning whether mr king is black the question arises whether king s race should make police officers afraid as hell your statement seems to imply that cops should have a different standard for large black guys than for just large guys in general that two posts later you don t understand why anyone pointed out your use of the adjective is almost as informative as your original use ted frank thf kimbark uchicago edu i m sorry the card says moops the u of c law school standard disclaimers
talk.politics.misc	history its dangerous in article ajv usenet ucs indiana edu mrynders bronze ucs indiana edu maurice rynders writes in article apr alleg edu meyerj jon meyer writes in article apr nwnexus wa com pyotr halcyon com peter d hampe writes drieux wetware com drieux just drieux writes pps why is there still no call to end clinton s illegal war in somalia hold on there tex it s not his war everybody knows that its part of the reaganbushlegacy yeah sure they created the starvation there they put the warlords there yep sure been brainwashed by the media haven t you he probably is by the way what has reagan to do with this any way i bet most people had never even heard of somalia during the reagan administration ok boys and girls what was the ogadan war the money raised in band aid covered how much of the cost of which soviet client state to replace what catagory of weapon system lost in the aforementioned war why was the joke we arm the world really not that funny gonzo station is the designation for which usn op area and the primary threat targets in the area were ciao drieux all hands to the big sea of comedy all hands to the big sea of comedy last call of the wild of the humour lemmings
talk.politics.misc	re how many homosexuals are there i am so tired about all this debate on how many gays there are such arguments are basically worthless imho would it really matter if it were millions of people who are regularly denied access to housing employment and personal security or even only one as for death threats i happen to know from personal experience that gay people are far more likely to receive them based on political veiws or even personal philosophies related to the issue of sexual orientation than are heterosex uals not a week goes by that i personally or one of my friends is not physically or verbally harrassed for even appearing to be gay everyone is garaunteed certain unalienable rights under our current form of government in theory yet every day gay people are victimized by their local governments by the police force and by for the most part an uninformed and ignorant public is this democracy i don t think so a society s sense of justice is judged on the basis of the treatment of the people who make up that society all of those people and yes that includes gays lesbians and bisexuals whose crimes have no victims and who are as varied and diverse as the society of wich they are a part frank jordan d d d c c c gay arab bassoonists unite
talk.politics.misc	re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in article stevethc nwnn t netcom com steveth netcom com steve thomas wri tes in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu ryan c scharfy writes no social problem however great is worth destroying the freedom in america the destruction of freedom is never an answer to any social problem you can t even walk down the street at night alone in america because of drug s freedom my ass ryan why exactely can t you walk down the street safely it it because somebody will jump out from behind a shadow and sell you drugs hardly or mug me on the other hand it s certainly possible that you are walking down the steet of a bustling lawless part of your metropolitan area lawless and bustling read underground economy why must you pursue this fantasy that all crime is derived from underground economies there it may not be a very safe place to be at all unless of course you re there to buy some drugs i explained how the wod is a major cause of large scale crime in america the head of the guardian angles agrees with me legalize drugs and watch violent haaahaaaahaaaa crimes significantly decrease as for me well i think i ll go take a walk tonight alone i feel safe i just hope the fda fbi dea batf isn t back at my apartment confiscating all my property because they found my phone number written on a phone booth that was also used by a drug dealer yeah buddy this happens all the time tell me has it every really happened to you that s what i thought in that sense i don t feel safe i m an honest law abiding citizen drug laws included ftm why is it that i fear the government more than i fear criminals your foolish freedom my ass this is not what the founding fathers some of whom would be thrown in prison under today s drug laws had in mind all of these problems you come up with pale in comparison to the fact that the very fiber of our country the us constitution is being destroyed what good would it do must i ask again what part even if the wod actually reduced crime we just created a new class of criminals headed up the gang s current leader bill clinton the dea etc are private armies that answer directly to the president they possess advanced weapons and survailance technology does this sound familiar to anybody do you support mein furher clinton hmmmmmm you seem to have come out against the current adminstration why are you eager to endow it with even more power power of the most dangerous kind too all i ask is that drugs stay illegal i don t think it s too much to ask ryan
talk.politics.misc	re if drugs should be legalized how in article qrohrinnipe senator bedfellow mit edu wdstarr athena mit edu wil liam december starr writes in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu ryan c scharfy said however legalizing it and just sticking some drugs in gas stations to be bought like cigarettes is just plain silly ryan c scharfy or the government could adopt the radical and probably unamerican idea that citizens are free to live their lives as they wish and simply decriminalize cocaine marijuana heroin lsd etc please explain why the idea of allowing recreational drugs to be bought like cigarettes is just plain silly after all it works just fine for nicotine wdstarr yeah cancer is pretty cool isn t it ryan please explain how the coolness or lack thereof of cancer is relevant to a discussion of the legalization of currently illegal recreational drugs for that matter please explain how it s even relevant to a discussion of currently legal recreational drugs such as tobacco wdstarr you said it worked so well with tobacco i was being fascisious i can t spell worth a damn look this is getting ridiculous first i think tobacco should be legal anybody who can t see the difference between tobacco and marijuana has got to be high ryan
talk.politics.misc	re nc vs hunt marine gay bashing in wilmington nc verdict kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu koppenhoefer kyle cramm writes tfarrell lynx dac northeastern edu thomas farrell writes funny but i ve seen a lot more than or seconds of that video and i still think the police involved were guilty i don t think there s any excuse they could possibly come up with that would make what they did ok i don t care if rodney king was satan himself there s just no excuse now whether they did it because he was black or they did it because they wanted to beat up on somebody they were arresting is another entirely separate question that i have insufficient information to make any kind of conclusion about how about the fact that you have a bunch of cops putting their lives o n the line day in and day out who are afraid as hell of a large black guy that took a large amount of punishment and refused submit oh yeah did you watch the start of the video when king got up out of his prone postion and charge the cops sorry the video cuts both was when you sit and watch it start to finish i have to agree with you the police may have carried it a bit too far but rodney king was no angel either and i don t think any guilty verdicts should have been returned i m sure you know why they handed down guilty verdicts on two of the officers it s quite simple really it was a compromise to avoid rioting in the places where minorities think it s right to riot i hate to say this but i would have liked to see them riot with everyone prepared it would be open season if your skin was even slightly brown hey my motto is you don t fuck with me or my stuff and you don t get killed it s just that simple tony anthony s pelliccio kd nr ae yes you read it right the system garlic sbs com man who went from no code thhhppptt to extra in flame retardent sysadmin exactly one year this is a calm sig
talk.politics.misc	re if drugs should be legalized how was good neighbor wdstarr athena mit edu william december starr writes however legalizing it and just sticking some drugs in gas stations to be bought like cigarettes is just plain silly plus i have never heard of a recommended dosage for drugs like crack ecstasy chrystal meth and lsd the minute report said it worked with cocaine cigarettes pot and heroin or the government could adopt the radical and probably unamerican idea that citizens are free to live their lives as they wish and simply decriminalize cocaine marijuana heroin lsd etc please explain why the idea of allowing recreational drugs to be bought like cigarettes is just plain silly after all it works just fine for nicotine i m all in favor of drug legalization but i do see some problems with it my hope is that people disposed to doing so would simply overdose quickly and be done with it before making a mess of thisgs let me get this straight medical treatment costs too much and is inefficient so we re going to let government make it better
talk.politics.misc	re race and violence i replied to your message however it is listed as a new topic with the title rnitedace and violence possibly line noise or error caused to post as a new topic i see it here as regards neal
talk.politics.misc	re the role of the national news media in inflaming passions in article qjtmjinnq elroy jpl nasa gov carlos beowulf jpl nasa gov carlos carrion writes i have come to the conclusion that the tv stations here in la want a riot to happen when the verdict comes in why is this surprising then the times can get a few more pulitzers the same way they did last year michael thomas mike gordian com i don t think bambi eyes will get you that flame thrower hobbes to calvin usnail irvine ave santa ana heights ca pabell fax
talk.politics.misc	re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in article stevethc jgcr ht netcom com steveth netcom com steve thomas wri tes just try to justify the war on drugs i dare you a friend of mine who smoke pot every day and last tuesday took hits of acid is still having trouble aiming for the bowl when he takes a dump don t as me how i just have seen the results boy i really wish we we cut the drug war and have more people screwed up in the head steve thomas steveth rossinc com ryan
talk.politics.misc	national sales tax the movie well it seems the national sales tax has gotten its very own cnn news logo cool that means we ll be seeing it often man i sure am glad that i quit working or taking this seriously in if i kept busting my ass watching time go by being frustrated i d be pretty damn mad by now yeah free health care oh yeeaaaahhhh heh heh bill makes me feel like dancing more amazing predictions from the incredible bromeister we take you back to feburary th when the incredible bromeister predicted per middle class taxpayer in new taxes a national sales tax now for more aammmaaaazzzzzziinnnnggggg predictions i the nst will be raised from to by ooops they already did it okay then the nst will be raised from to by ii unemployment will rise iii tax revenues will decline deficit will increase we ll get another deficit reduction package by everyone will dance and sing yup i m gonna glancing at watch bail out of here at pm amble on down to the lake hang out sit in the sun and take it easy yeah i just wish i had the e mail address of total gumby who was saying that clinton didn t propose a nst to paraphrase hilary clinton i will not raise taxes on the middle class to pay for my programs to paraphrase bill clinton i will not raise taxes on the middle class to pay for my programs
talk.politics.misc	re high speed rail is bad bmich cs utexas edu brian keith michalk writes a few weeks ago i found out about some of the politics that is going on with the texas bullet train and was appalled at some of the apparent underhanded tactics to push this thing through without any public say whatsoever so i wrote up a short editorial thing and posted it hoping to get some discussion i suppose editorials don t do it here so now i am asking for the general opinion of the net about the proposed high speed train what do you think i personally think it is a stupid idea and that there are a few people somewhere who are going to get very rich from this deal my opinion is this in a society whose economy is primarily based on capitalism the role of government should be to provide those goods and services that need providing for the general public s good but government should supply those necessary goods and services only when it is impossible for a private enterprise or individual to make money from providing them i agree with some of the other posts that this train probably can not make money and will rely heavily on state tax dollars the question i think then becomes do we the general public need the train i certainly do not nor will i ever need this train in lubbock texas with the inexpensive air travel provided between dallas and houston i don t think people in dallas or houston need it either david mcgaughey texas tech university
talk.politics.misc	re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate in article c jh eu encore com rcollins ns encore com roger collins writes look at the whole picture not just randomly picked libertarian positions if government is not allowed to use non initiated force to achieve its goals than no special interest can influence the government to use non initiated force on their behalf either the government has force available to it or it doesn t the libertarian position is that the government can use force only when someone else uses force first even when that first force is not directed against the government but one of its citizens that all being true what safeguards do we have against the government claiming that some initiation of force on its part is really a response like the burning of the maine the tonkin gulf incident or the assault on waco i ask this not to argue but to understand followups to alt politics libertarian only cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
talk.politics.misc	return of the know nothing party in article organpipe uug arizona edu ece bigdog engr arizona edu david anderson writes in article c hdm wetware com drieux wetware com drieux just drieux writes well actually its a case of resolving whether one supports biblical literalism and the enerrancy of the bible or whether on wished to jump on the sexularhumanist detain all the true christians in death camps approach of the northern liberal abolitionists and their efforts to destroy the bible corrupt the moral fibre of american and lead the god fearing into the bondage of liberal degeneracy but i guess one needs to know a little about the bible christianity and american history mt st helens didn t spew such crap how do you manage drieux day in day out to keep it up so which are you advocating that you know nothing about american history or that you know nothing about the bible is this a restoration of the know nothing party ciao drieux ps what was the free negro sailor act about and what was the supreme court s ruling on it and more importantly how does this complicate the mythology that all blacks were slaves all hands to the big sea of comedy all hands to the big sea of comedy last call of the wild of the humour lemmings
talk.politics.misc	re stop the sexularhumanistoppression former my beloved damn ferigner s be taken over in article c hiu a spss com gregotts spss com greg otts writes in article c hcrw dn junior bintec de muftix junior bintec de juergen ernst guenther writes i never understood why canadians mexicans brazilians etc accusing us people for imperialism though think of them as the americans not few europeans think of you all as americans and of the us as a bunch of blasphemeous trash that god has to extinguish sooner or later m it would not be surprising that a continent that produced fascism communism and two world wars might have quite a few people who tend to think of other people as trash that should be extinguished sooner or later i seem to remember a gut called hitler who felt the same way one wonders what would be the fate of europe if god had extinguished this nation of blasphemeous trash before not that i believe in gods how many millions of people through out the world would have to die because no force could stop the insane bloody european imperialism thankfully the imperialistic us helped put an end to these games so that the rest of the world can sleep alittle more safely thus i could care less what not few europeans think so long as they can t do anything about it greg otts these opinions are entirely my own but remember that had god extinguished the blasphemous trash of europe and imperialism with it the united states would not exist today to put an end to those games begs the question which came first the chicken or the egg c brown
talk.politics.misc	re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate in article c jh eu encore com rcollins encore com writes in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes you don t specify the means through which the government is to be prevented from becoming the tool of business interests as a left wing big government conventional liberal i m just as willing as you are to vote against anti competitive regulations that favor auto dealers but what i hear from libertarians is a desire to limit incumbents terms to weaken government by eliminating its power to enforce antitrust laws and a desire to eliminate legislator s pay each strikes me as a particularly ineffective way to insure that auto dealers and other special interests cannot influence public policy in fact they seem clearly designed to accomplish the opposite if government is not allowed to use non initiated force to achieve its goals than no special interest can influence the government to use non initiated force on their behalf fine libertarians and anarchists are not alone in being uncomfortable with the use of state sponsored coercion the notion that coercion can be virtually eliminated in a society or more properly that once it is eliminated on the part of the state it is no longer worth serious consideration is a view that is peculiar to libertarians and anarchists for example does non initiated force coercion include tax collection does it include the minimal level of regulation of commerce envisioned by adam smith since coercion can be exercised by actors other than the state how is the state to deal with it exclusively through after the fact arbitration legal compulsion the means to reaching such a restricted government is another topic which i ll address briefly it certainly won t happen until libertarianism is the dominate philosophy what means do we have to make libertarianism the dominate philosophy statists run the education monopoly so we have to be creative the advocates for self government reports of their seminar participants embrace libertarianism that s the best means i ve seen yet we should lobby for compulsory seminar attendance in jest well i must admit that the picture of libertarians as amway participants is somewhat more reassuring than the idea of them trying to govern a complex conflictual industrial society i d venture to point out however that if libertarians couldn t convince at least of a group of seminar participants to embrace their philosophy their propaganda skills need to be honed frankly however it is no great trick to create a government for a society in which almost everyone is assumed to agree about what is a proper government policy once that is assumed all sorts of annoying formalities can be dispensed with elections police etc and as mr marx said the state will just wither away on the way there however would you like to explain how eliminating virtually all policies that restrain private coercion in the current society will help us to live happier lives or is it like socialism just some short term pain that we ll have to bear until everyone has had the benefit of re education through regular seminar training jsh roger collins steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing about data it sure does cut uucp uunet isc br thor steveh the bulls t r hofferbert ma bell
talk.politics.misc	re urgent ted frank wanted for killing aj teel in article apr eff org mnemonic eff org mike godwin writes in article c bvqy fld dscomsa desy de hallam zeus desy de writes but punishing the person for posting such a thing smacks of authoritarianism it s a deliberate act of fraud intended to cause harm you seem to be unclear about the legal meaning of fraud mere misrepresentation is not fraud your comment here is meant as a put down it fails for several reasons you have edited out the context of the action under discussion i never brought the legal definition up i use the english language and not the legal dialect the legal definition of fraud changes from one country to another in any case the context of the discussion is morality of censorship how does a posting from your site do any such thing especially if your site is a university do you know any person who believes that a university endorses every comment made from a university site that is why i refered specifically to a company good now do you know any person who believes that a company endorses every comment made from a university site you are extrapolating from the statement i made concerning a circumstance in which such an act of censorship would be permissable to the teel case if you had bothered to read the post instead of trying to prove how stupid you thought me you would have done rather better the mode of argument i was using was a form of rhetoric argument by example i describe a wide set of circumstances in which an action is permisable and demonstrate that they do not apply thus the action is not permisable obviously a company posting from a university adress would be squashed it would be contrary to the internet comercial use usenet does not distribute letterhead organization desydeutsches elektronen synchrotron experiment zeus bei hera i suggest strongly that if you mean for this to be taken as letterhead you get a better stationery designer now you are clutching at straws in the context of the discussion it was the fact of association between the company and the post that was important the typeface etc is inconsequential there are people on the net who are openly supporting the murder of members of my family sigh if you are implying that i am lying i suggest you read mark holohan and ulick staffords posts into soc culture british if you are suggesting that advocating murder is a trivial matter i would prefer that you state it directly certainly i oppose the right of dr sidiqui and the ayatolah khomenhi to call for the murder of salman rushdie incitement to murder is not part of what i consider legitimate freedom of speech as for your notion that employees can argue their different political views at their own expense could you explain precisely what expense you re talking about internet is not free the connection charges are quite expensive for comercial concerns could you give me a cost breakdown for the expense to your company attributable to an employee s posting a political view in disagreement with yours numbers please that is irrelevant the case is not the incremental cost but the facility cost if i decide that a company i am associated with should subscribe to usenet that usenet connection is the property of the company it is quite legitimate for a company to have a political or other agenda and regulate the use of its property in accordance with its policy for example if a microsoft employee were to post windows nt is crap don t buy it from a microsoft machine i would consider it reasonable for microsoft to sack that employee in the same way if a company decides that it has political objectives it might wish to regulate postings in a political manner this is no worse than rupert murdoch using his papers as a political platform for his views i was refering to the arrogance of your position quoting the words written by slave owners at me in the cause of freedom which words written by slave owners did i quote i don t recall quoting anyone ah yes you did not quote them merely refered to them your constitution is not considered sacrosanct in other parts of the globe nor have i assumed it is i don t consider the first amendment to have talismanic value you might just as well have attempted to argue from the king james bible to a muslim i was pointing out that your reasoning is parochial when with little effort you could have made a substantive point i made the effort apparently you made a certain effort to misunderstand me your article consisted of a reference to the first ammendment your signature and pretty well damn all else for an example of a uk publication that understands this try index on censorship i used to subscribe i would still if i was not moving index regularly publishes opinions by non americans who believe the first amendment represents appropriate free speech principles for all open societies see e g the opinions of the dissenting law lords in the spycatcher case are you refering to the initial hearings on an injunction or the judgments on the substantive case the initial hearings that the government won were judged on the not unresonable judgment that assertion by the government that the national interest might be harmed would be grounds for prior restraint the second set of hearings on the substance judged that the government had no case and that the official secrets act could not be used to suppress information in thwe public domain already the part that they won was over the copyright issue which is rather separate here again the issue of censorship is rather different in the case that information is divulged on the understanding that it will not be communicated to third parties the first ammendment certainly does not apply in this case as the numerous prosecutions of spies in the us proves the crux of the spycatcher affair was extrateritoriality of british law the censorship aspect of it arose as a result of the government s ludicrous attempts to prevent summary of the case in the book you haven t any reason to believe that anything i ve said has been reached unquestioningly only most of what you write for someone who purports to be opposed to argument from assertion you certainly get by on assertions a lot funny i saw that as a rejection of an assertion that you had made of course in rejecting an assertion i have to make a contrary assertion since this assertion is unprovable i left it at that so far i have not seen you demonstrate a command of the contrary opinion to your own you are attacking my anti censorship view because i dare to accept the validity of some pro censorship arguments while rejecting their conclusions plus i am not an absolutist i have this funny idea that the solution to this problem was not decided in by a group of white male gentry in secret session and sumarized in a single line furthermore i don t think that the issues are half as simple as you imply you may think that i am being anti american in disallowing recourse to the first ammendment it s just that this argument has no currency in the parts of the world where there is state censorship such as iran kewait and israel i don t pretend to have geared my discourse for all conceivable audiences i don t think that you have geered your discourse to any audience save that of proving that you are the only person wearing a white hat phill hallam baker
talk.politics.misc	re top ten excuses for slick willie s record setting disapproval rati in a previous article mbs psuvm psu edu mark mark sachs says in article qhr a d usenet ins cwru edu an cleveland freenet edu broward horne says it sure does appear that way doesn t it the attitude that people are stupid if they don t agree with you is not going to bring you great success in life free advice there hahahahahah oh christ oh hahahahah whew mark what on earth makes you think i give a fuck about being a success particularly now when i ll just the hell taxed out of me oh this is excellent holy christ besides let s ahem examine the record shall we broward clinton s going to taxe the holy fuck out of you mark no he s not only month i still get a laugh out of this one broward oh here comes a national sales tax clinton supporter oh no bill never said that want some more free predictions it always makes me smile to see george bush used to defend bill clinton can you imagine anything sadder than to be left with george bush as a final argument true the republicans did look pretty pathetic in november of yup they surely did almost as pathetic as clinton suppoters are looking in april of well chumbo i see my my watch here that my appointment at the lake is about hours past due you ll let me know who the full time working thing works out won t you i want to enjoy every minute of my free time and free health care the only reason i would have gone back to working thanks bill
talk.politics.misc	re clinton s immunization program in a previous article paul hsh com paul havemann says all together now c mon you know the words meet the new boss same as the old boss and the chorus we won t get fooled again hmmm can i eh get a little side bet on this one
talk.politics.misc	re clinton s immunization program in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu jlinder magnus acs ohio state edu jeffrey s linder writes in article c fjsl is ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr c om mark wilson writes on the news last night clinton was bashing the republicans for stonewalling his so called stimulus package it seems that one small item within this package was going to pay for free immunizations for poor kids immunizations for children in this country are already free if you care to go have it done the problem is not the cost it is the irresponible parents who are to stupid or to lazy to have it done in case you haven t noticed clintonites are pushing a universal health care access program access here means that folks who do not give a damn about immunizing their children will have health care services delivered to their doorsteps disclaimer opinions expressed are mine not my employer s
talk.politics.misc	re the state of justice gm trial in article apr desire wright edu demon desire wright edu not a boomer writes a judge denied gm s new trial motion even though gm says it has two new witnesses that said the occupant of the truck was dead from the impact not from the fire thoughts it s kind of scary when you realize that judges are going to start denying new trials even when new evidence that contradicts the facts that led to the previous ruling appear on the other hand it would be kind of scary if there were never a final verdict because a party to litigation could keep saying oops i forgot to bring up this evidence and demand a new trial you get one bite at the apple or has the judge decided that the new witnesses are not to be believed shouldn t that be up to a jury it s up to general motors to find those witnesses in the first litigation you d be up in arms if a plaintiff suing general motors pulled the same stunt and made them relitigate an issue that they already lost it s not as if general motors couldn t file enough discovery motions to delay the trial until they found all the witnesses they wanted and what about members of the previous jury parading through the talk shows proclaiming their obvious bias against gm define obvious bias shouldn t that be enough for a judge to through out the old verdict and call for a new trial did gm move for a new trial on those grounds no perhaps they had a reason ted frank thf kimbark uchicago edu i m sorry the card says moops the u of c law school standard disclaimers
talk.politics.misc	re clinton s immunization program in article c jobh zt apollo hp com goykhman apollo hp com red herring writes in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu jlinder magnus acs ohio state edu jeffrey s linder writes in article c fjsl is ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr c om mark wilson writes on the news last night clinton was bashing the republicans for stonewalling his so called stimulus package it seems that one small item within this package was going to pay for free immunizations for poor kids immunizations for children in this country are already free if you care to go have it done the problem is not the cost it is the irresponible parents who are to stupid or to lazy to have it done in case you haven t noticed clintonites are pushing a universal health care access program access here means that folks who do not give a damn about immunizing their children will have health care services delivered to their doorsteps i ve read about more than a few of these programs that ran into problems in convincing parents to get their children immunized even when they were delivered to their doorstep i don t know maybe that sheet they have to be informed of about possible risks side effects and bad reactions scares them david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
talk.politics.misc	re top ten signs that it s the age of aquarius on pennsylvania avenue paolucci spot colorado edu paolucci paul writes in article c gpto kq newsserver technet sg ipser solomon technet sg ed ipser writes top ten signs that it s the age of aquarius on pennsylvania avenue biased and decidedly not as funny as dave stuff deleted i sure hope that someone somewhere is enjoying these lists stuff deleted i m no clinton fan but i m no ipser fan then why not simply stop reading them this isn t intended as a flame but your post reminds me of the old joke patient doctor it hurts when i do this doctor then stop doing that regards jeff
talk.politics.misc	re will italy be the next domino to fall in article c gk w j h newsserver technet sg ipser solomon technet sg ed ipser writes will italy be the next domino to fall socialism may have collapsed in eastern europe and the soviet disunion but it lingers on in western europe and the united states it remains the primary ideology in the hearts and minds of the liberal academia and media but all the political correctness they can muster may not be sufficient to hold back the economic forces that threaten to spread socialism s collapse from the second world to the first indeed it is becoming more apparent every day that socialism may not even survive the turn of the century ed of course has never demonstrated remarkable knowlege of socialism or any other political system come to that while the swedes have already discarded their third way and the french have made history by turning out the socialist party in a record setting defeat it is italy that appears most precariously on the edge of its political existence that leaves germany japan and the uk as examples of a country where the right wing government is on the verge of collapse oh and of course the usa which just elected a socialist government italy today is a basket case even by european standards it has introduced new taxes in months and public sector revenue is at or near the of gdp mark etc unfortunately you can t pin this on the left or the right both are to blame both sides are equally deep into the corruption scandal the only untained party is the northern league which is a bunch of nationalist separatists and the communist party which has collapsed in spite of this political gluteny it has an annual deficit exceeding the sum of all other ec countries and a public debt times that of latin america italy is understandably having serious trouble selling its treasury bonds in the markets and while italy is an extreme case it is anything but unique all european governments appear headed in the same direction in spite of their nominally non socialist governments unfortunately europeans being well europeans it is very unlikely that they will discover american style liberty instead they will likely lurch from socialism to fascism as quickly as they had moved from fascism to socialism never pausing along the way to reasseses the role of government itself i hope i am wrong ed should take a look at the budget deficit regan and bush created together before he starts to make claims about europe collapsing based on the budget deficits here none of them are serious on the usa scale and here in europe we have zero interest in ed ipser type freed thank you we do not want our countries to be run by a narrow elite of rich lawyers for the benefit of the super wealthy we are quite happy with social democracy and despite the fuss made in time and newsweek there is remarkably little being done to reverse the social welfare reforms brought in by socialism the problem with socialism is that it started with the aims of free education and health care and provision of the welfare state this has been achieved across the whole of europe only the usa is struggling to catch up the problem for socialism is what to do now it has succeeded nobody ever claimed that the collapse of socialism would be pretty the decline of the nation state will probably lead first to anarchy since politicians always cut essential services before pork los angeles has rampant crime and frantically waits for the next wave of riots but it has a spanking new subway that nobody wants to use and which like every other public transit system in the world will never be economically viable if you were trying to extort tax payers which would you cut first mass transit or police protection ed starts to discus la presumably he thinks that it is in europe on the other hand he most probably hasn t heard of a european city thus does the world hurtle toward chaos even as the st century approaches rather the opposite what is happening in italy is that the communist party has collapsed this has meant that the grand coalition between right and left wing parties to keep out the communists has also collapsed the magistrates have seized this opportunity to crack down hard on fraud and corruption and have arrested half the politicians the fact that the socialists are in charge this week is incidental the right is into the corruption just as baddly what looks likely to happen is the fringe parties are going to do much better in the next election most of the parliamentary deputies are going to get replaced and the parties are going to be forced to look to people who are free of any hint of corruption look out for a parliament of pavarotti s and porn stars phill hallam baker
talk.politics.misc	re return of the know nothing party in article c jlq bl wetware com drieux wetware com writes in article organpipe uug arizona edu ece bigdog engr arizona edu david anderson writes in article c hdm wetware com drieux wetware com drieux just drieux writes but i guess one needs to know a little about the bible christianity and american history mt st helens didn t spew such crap how do you manage drieux day in day out to keep it up so which are you advocating that you know nothing about american history or that you know nothing about the bible is this a restoration of the know nothing party go easy on him drieux it is the right of every american to know nothing about anything ciao drieux all hands to the big sea of comedy all hands to the big sea of comedy last call of the wild of the humour lemmings who said anything about panicking snapped authur garrett johnson this is still just culture shock you wait till i ve garrett ingres com settled into the situation and found my bearings then i ll start panicking douglas adams
talk.politics.misc	re foreign media reaction april part of in article apr r node hub org ndallen r node hub org nigel allen writes here is a press release from the united states information agency digest of foreign media reaction from the united states information agency april of to national desk contact anne chermak of the united states information agency washington april following is part one of a digest of foreign media reaction from april compiled by the united states information agency terrorism and world insecurity in recent editorials iran was universally recognized as te source of the double threat of state sponsored terrorism and islamic extremism but beyond this fear and condemnation journalists found little common ground that would compel both north and south and arab and non arab nations to work together to combat the global threat of terrorism for example egyptian and algerian papers were in the forefront in charging u s complicity in the current instability in the middle east those commentators asserted that the united states had promoted islamic fundamentalism during the afghanistan war and had further added to regional instability by alternately encouraging iraq and iran the cads the fact that this is precisely what the us was up to of course is not mentioned it is a fact that regan and bush sold arms to iran it is also a fact that they supported and armed iraq still this is state dept propaganda so none too surprizing india s papers weighed the pros and cons of helping the west to identify pakistan s role in promoting terrorism noting on the one hand that doing so could bring ruination to islamabad s kashmir cause but on the other could also bring india s security apparatus uncomfortably close to the cia and the mossad arab papers continued to portray iraq and libya as being unfairly treated by the un while israel remains unpunished for resolutions which it has violated in the case of lybia there is the problem that the us only decided that gadffii ordered the bombing after it needed to make peace with damascus during the gulf war one day the us is certain that its syria the next lybia for a strange reason the us will not provide evidence to lybian courts for extradition proceedings faced with similar demands the usa would reject them as would any other country concerning northern ireland president clinton s message of consolation to the victims of the warrington bombing was seen in british tabloids as signalling a tougher stance by the american government against violence by the ira the word is terrorism the problem is that after the behaviour of george bush the usa has an image abroad as doing precisely what it likes and is in its own interests then comming out with a dysney scripted sugary justification repeating a fitting combination of the words freedom dignity democaracy or of terrorism dictatorship etc as appropriate the usa could go quite far to mend the bridges with iran the people there are rather pissed off because the usa first supported the shah who they loathed and then supported saddam when he mounted an unprovoked attack hardly surprizing after the embassy hostage crisis but iran is meant to be the country run by unreasonable bigots not the usa so if there is to be movement it would be easier for the usa to move first off they could recognise iraqu s responsibility in initiating the iran iraq war providing technical assistance to iran to get it s oil production back up to capacity would also be a smart move at the moment iran is above it s opec ceiling if they had extra capacity they would use it and bring down the oild price further which is in our interests the iranian clerics would have an interest in seeking a raprochment simply because a permanent war footing is debilitating they also need western technology phill hallam baker
talk.politics.misc	re temper tantrums from the s in article apr pony ingres com garrett ingres com writes in article philc ht t gwa netcom com phil netcom com phil ronzone writes correct jfk was quite disgusting in that way the reports of the women that he coerced via power of the office are now in the dozens today we d call for immediate resignation for that kind of behaviour i guess coercing women into having sex is much worse than stealing breaking and entering rigging national elections starting secret wars that kill hundreds of thousands and using the powers of your office for personal gain like nixon did not garrett you are a really pathetic liar some of your charges are arguable but most of them are obvious lies i challenge you to present us with any evidence that nixon stole rigged a national election never mind elections or used the powers of his office for personal gain you can t because there is absolutely no evidence that any of these events occurred along with normalized relations with the prc normalizing relations with cambodia you must be joking we sponsored the overthrow of the cambodian government after repeated failed attempts of course your sad level of historical and political knowlege is probably best exemplified by the fact that you think prc stands for cambodia instead of red china
talk.politics.misc	who are the rich was re professors whining about pay candidate clinton promised to tax the rich and most folks thought that was a pretty nifty idea then president clinton said he wanted families who make more than to bear of the new tax burden and many were quick to complain that their six figure income does not make them one of the well to do it s particularly ironic to me that it s in those traditionally liberal enclaves of the bay area and academia where the wealthy are struggling so to fit themselves into the mantle of just regular working class folk nobody will ever admit to being rich everybody s middle class so who are the rich well i ll throw out some stats from the census and let you be the judge va negvpyr mzimmersc e qk fn netcom com mzimmers netcom com michael zimmers jevgrf in article qcdvbinn ti elroy jpl nasa gov fogarty sir c jpl nasa gov tim fogarty writes that would be about to thousand us and that is what tenured professors can expect to make for a phd with say years experience is a lot less than what he could be making in industry oh as a year veteran of silicon valley i ve seen precious few employment ads that call for phds and k is hardly chump change it s well above the median household income for the state bay area average household income is in the mid range national average is the bay area has nearly twice the national average of six figure income households vs the cost of living here may be high but i don t think it s twice the national average in los angeles modest home prices can be a square foot tract house in a bay area working class neighborhood goes for about i doubt that the los angeles market is all that different it would appear that this definition of modest is perhaps a bit immoderate so what they re no cheaper for those who are gainfully employed in california is not upper middle class it depends upon your definition it s clearly above average it is more than what two thirds of california households make seems to me that belonging to the upper one third is not an unreasonable definition of upper middle class note that if that professor s spouse earns they become one of clinton s rich families here s a breakdown of national california and bay area household incomes k k k k us the census bureau did some weird ca rounding here more like ba and to add a little prespective a minimum wage earner working hours week makes year the poverty line for a family of four is if they make up to twice that the government considers them to be working poor say we decide to call this the lower middle class then how bout k annual income is middle class k is upper middle class k is rich k is filthy rich and is bill gates make sense timr there s nothing surer the rich get rich and the poor get poorer in the meantime in between time ain t we got fun raymond egan
talk.politics.misc	re foreign media reaction april part of in article c jv a f dscomsa desy de hallam zeus desy de writes the usa could go quite far to mend the bridges with iran the people there are rather pissed off because the usa first supported the shah who they loathed and then supported saddam when he mounted an unprovoked attack hardly surprizing after the embassy hostage crisis but iran is meant to be the country run by unreasonable bigots not the usa so if there is to be movement it would be easier for the usa to move phill hallam baker it is also widely stated in non mainstream sources that the cia had a large part in the overthrow of the popular and popularly elected left leaning premier mossadegh in is this widely recognized outside the u s i have never seen it mentioned at all in mainstream u s media how about within iran dave kohr cs graduate student univ of illinois at urbana champaign work dcl home e mail drk cs uiuc edu one either has none or not enough
talk.politics.misc	re newsweek reports clinton approval ratings in article blue cis pitt edu psg pitt edu paul s galvanek writes when i heard the latest approval rating reported for clinton i laughed so hard i forgot the exact numbers maybe one of the clintonettes can refresh my memory has his rating dropped to or percent ha ha ha ha ha snick oh my either way it s still the lowest rating any president has ever mustered in his first days since these polls started being taken hum i guess this has some significance as opposed to having an incredible drop during the last days in office unfortuantely having a loss in the polls during the last days of office usually means no re election ask george he was finished before he started good one roooster thats hard to top the rooster
talk.politics.misc	re the state of justice in article apr desire wright edu demon desire wright edu not a boomer writes a judge denied gm s new trial motion even though gm says it has two new witnesses that said the occupant of the truck was dead from the impact not from the fire thoughts it s kind of scary when you realize that judges are going to start denying new trials even when new evidence that contradicts the facts that led to the previous ruling appear welcome to the conservative judiciary or has the judge decided that the new witnesses are not to be believed shouldn t that be up to a jury i think scalia s point was that you get one chance if new information comes out later tough if the conviced want justice they have to hope the governor is feeling charitable there s a guy on death row in texas that was denied a new trial dispite evidence of his inocents and what about members of the previous jury parading through the talk shows proclaiming their obvious bias against gm shouldn t that be enough for a judge to through out the old verdict and call for a new trial whatever happened to jurors having to be objective it got swept away in the reagan revolution russ anderson disclaimer any statements are my own and do not reflect upon my employer or anyone else c ex twins jack morris innings pitched runs world series mvp
talk.politics.misc	re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu ryan c scharfy writes in article stevethc jgcr ht netcom com steveth netcom com steve thomas wri tes just try to justify the war on drugs i dare you a friend of mine who smoke pot every day and last tuesday took hits of acid is still having trouble aiming for the bowl when he takes a dump don t as me how i just have seen the results boy i really wish we we cut the drug war and have more people screwed up in the head i ll answer you re sarcasm with more sarcasm boy it looks like the wod is working really good to stop people from being screwed up in the head given that example issue your friend got his drugs legal or not legal he ll continue to get them issue why should i as somebody who does not use illegal drugs and who is not screwed up have to pay for this idiot s problems he s not doing anybody any harm except himself the wod on the other hand is an immediate threat to my life and livelyhood tell me why i should sacrafice this to that steve thomas steveth rossinc com
talk.politics.misc	re the tories could win the lottery clinton gst in article apr news columbia edu gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes cmk world std com charles m kozierok writes gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes secondly any canadian who has worked and participates in the insurance it s a negative option you have to explicitly decline it knows that the premium is deducted separately yes and some americans actually have a problem with having more of their money taken from them to pay for others health care but note again the canadian and german health insurance is voluntary not true i am required to have insurance by law the method of collection effectively makes it a tax but like basic plus cable you have to tell them that you don t want it for example hutterite colonies in western canada are not part of it mennon and hutter were fundamentalist protestants from germany whose followers left for the new world mennonites are a very diverse lot while hutterites are similiar to the amish the american idea being floated today gives you no option but to live off the land the selfish bastards that they are unfortunately that number has diminished recently but once president pinocchio gets through with us i hope for a reversal of trend well here we have the right hoping for more selfish bastards pity they don t look at what years of the regan bush selfish bastard ecconomy has done to the country elect a selfish bastard government and they will run the country for themselves thats why they are selfish bastards bush and regan gave tax breaks for the ultra rich and paid for them by borrowing against the incomes of the middle class phill hallam baker
talk.politics.misc	re the role of the national news media in inflaming passions in article apr gordian com mike gordian com michael a thomas writes in article qjtmjinnq elroy jpl nasa gov carlos beowulf jpl nasa gov carlos carrion writes i have come to the conclusion that the tv stations here in la want a riot to happen when the verdict comes in why is this surprising then the times can get a few more pulitzers the same way they did last year i suppose all media want something to happen otherwise what would they report that s their job duhhh to me but it s not so much surprising that they want a riot as it is amazing how they carry that desire across in not so subtle ways at least to me carlos i as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race abraham lincoln ames elroy jpl devvax beowulf pituco carlos
talk.politics.misc	re temper tantrums from the s in article apr oracle us oracle com mfriedma us oracle com michael friedman writes in article apr pony ingres com garrett ingres com writes in article philc ht t gwa netcom com phil netcom com phil ronzone writes correct jfk was quite disgusting in that way the reports of the women that he coerced via power of the office are now in the dozens today we d call for immediate resignation for that kind of behaviour i guess coercing women into having sex is much worse than stealing breaking and entering rigging national elections starting secret wars that kill hundreds of thousands and using the powers of your office for personal gain like nixon did not garrett you are a really pathetic liar isn t name calling fun some of your charges are arguable but most of them are obvious lies i challenge you to present us with any evidence that nixon stole rigged a national election never mind elections or used the powers of his office for personal gain what do you think happened at watergate what do you think they broke into the building for it wasn t to just look around do i have to draw you a picture you can t because there is absolutely no evidence that any of these events occurred whatever who said anything about panicking snapped authur garrett johnson this is still just culture shock you wait till i ve garrett ingres com settled into the situation and found my bearings then i ll start panicking douglas adams
talk.politics.misc	re re fillibuster in article apr martha utcc utk edu pa utkvm utk edu david veal writes come to that under the original plan there wasn t meant to be anything much for the federal government to do except keep the british out that s also untrue but at least we re wandering a little closer toward reality that the articles of confederation fell apart is enough proof it was there for just a tad bit more well yes and no the federalist papers are propaganda and it is therefore difficult to determine precisely what maddison etc were up to from them they certainly emphasised a limited role for the federal government but this was not necessarily their true position and like the house of lords which it is copied from it was given pretty wide powers unfortunately they started to use them and thus the gridlock set in i wasn t aware the house of lords had wide powers i was under the impression is was pretty powerless compared to the house of commons and certainly didn t have almost equal their powers the senate is restricted only that it may not introduce bills relating to raising revenue the senate was less powerful than the house of lords in the period in question the stripping of the powers of the house of lords did not occur until and david llloyd george s budget even despite this the house of lords has considerable power even today and is far from a rubber stamping body my reading of the constitution and other writings gives me absolutely no reason to believe the senate wasn t intended to make use of their law making powers in fact grid lock appears to have been designed into the system with the senate being a more deliberative body to act as a check on the more often elected house the system is meant to be slow to react the problem is that it ended up a bit too slow on what basis do you suggest that the senate was supposed to be some sort of rubber stamp for the house you ll note that while the president s veto may be over ridden the house can t do anything about a veto by the senate the presiden t veto was meant to be entirely separate until bush abused it in a quite extraordinary manner it was used more in accord with the intent of being a check on unreasonable legislation the veto was clearly regarded as a completely last gasp measure its use was meant to be restricted to preventing the legislature interfering with the actions of the executive the senate is not meant to be exactly a rubber stamp body it is meant as a check on unrestrained legislation that is the extra measure built into the constitution in favour of the status quo of the representatives of the states is not a reasonable restriction
talk.politics.misc	re fillibuster in article c dsyr ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com mark wilson writes in article c buph fcp dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker writes the filibuster does not make sense because the senate is elected as a last gasp assembly it is designed to be the repository of doddery old men with no power phill i don t know which senate you re discussing but it ain t ours phill probably thinks that the us senate is supposed to be the equivalent to the uk s house of lords the status of the house of lords today is quite different to its status in which just goes to show that where the us is concerned phill still has no idea what he is talking about maddison and hamilton were both studying existing forms of government for several years before they wrote the federalist papers that the us system is based to a considerable degree on the uk model is pretty widely accepted at the time there was no other major country with a representative body the french plebicite had been suppressed for years and its restoration eight years later would mark the start of the french revolution after the uk system the major influences were the dutch system and of course the classical systems nobody seriously suggests that rome or greece were models though because the political systems of both countries were acknowleged disasters the main lesson learnt from greece was that unless a federal state was constructed a war would be inevitable the greek democracies were always fighting amongst themselves which is how rome managed to invade had the federal consitution been rejected the new roman empire in the shape of britain would quite certainly have reabsorbed much of the colonies in due course moreover the states would have been at each others throats as soon as the louisiana purchase situation arose during the napoleonic period phill hallam baker
talk.politics.misc	re the state of justice demon desire wright edu not a boomer writes a judge denied gm s new trial motion even though gm says it has two new witnesses that said the occupant of the truck was dead from the impact not from the fire thoughts how can a witness tell that someone in a burning truck is dead rather than unconscious it s kind of scary when you realize that judges are going to start denying new trials even when new evidence that contradicts the facts that led to the previous ruling appear or has the judge decided that the new witnesses are not to be believed shouldn t that be up to a jury what kind of witnesses if we are talking about witnesses who were at the accident or were otherwise directly involved e g paramedics emergency room doctors etc then they should have been used at the first trial you don t get a new trial because you screwed up and forgot to call all of your witnesses if we are talking about new expert witnesses who will offer new interpretations of the data note that the loser can always find such witnesses if this were grounds for a new trial then the loser could always get a new trial and keep doing so until the loser becomes a winner and then the other side would come up with new expert witnesses tim smith
talk.politics.misc	none in article apr kadsma kodak com pajerek telstar kodak com don pajerek writes what i see is that the media is reasonably fair but is seen as liberal by conservatives and conservative by liberals not that i think anyone cares but this pattern using other examples of course was discussed years ago by aristotle in nicomachean ethics note that you can t use this insight to reason backwards e g since the conservatives see the media as liberal and the liberals see the media as conservative the media are fair though i ve seen this reasoning implied don pajerek standard disclaimers apply ken miner kuhub cc ukans edu nobody can explain everything to everybody opinions are my own g k chesterton
talk.politics.misc	mow bodycount any thoughts on who is going to count all of the gorgeous bodies at the mow the press the white house staff the most junior senator the king of the motss bi just curious as to whose bias we are going to see when the numbers get brought out bram bram currie bram u washington edu
talk.politics.misc	incredible new b b s wow did i discover a great bbs it s called sovereignty lies in the people bbs k baud free and confidential fictitious names ok subjects and files contained on the bbs find out how the government has been scamming us state citizenship documents and issues are you a california republic citizen or a u s federal citizen remember there were only state citizens before the th amendment one is subject to federal income tax one isn t did you volunteer to surrender your state citizenship when you got your social security number which one are you tax laws and issues beat the irs traffic laws and issues beat traffic tickets can you answer this one what law allows a police officer to arrest you without a warrant when he issues you a ticket religious truth issues are all religions scams are all christian religions of the great creator god trust documents and issues the sysop told me that instructions to beat traffic tickets will be on the bbs shortly beat traffic tickets without going to court the bbs is great spread the word also how come i don t hear more people talking about the federal reserve bank just ask yourself these questions why would anyone borrow money from themselves at interest the federal government does not not the federal reserve bank is private the american people are being ripped off royally of the income tax goes to pay on the federal debt to the federal reserve bankers not one dime goes for services services like the military and welfare come from excise taxes and the like why do we the american people stand for this check out the new bbs
talk.politics.misc	re re fillibuster in article c jpl cz dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker writes in article apr martha utcc utk edu pa utkvm utk edu david veal writes come to that under the original plan there wasn t meant to be anything much for the federal government to do except keep the british out that s also untrue but at least we re wandering a little closer toward reality that the articles of confederation fell apart is enough proof it was there for just a tad bit more well yes and no the federalist papers are propaganda and it is therefore difficult to determine precisely what maddison etc were up to from them there are a couple of ways to look at them one is we want you to support this constitution so we ll say anything that we think will appeal to you or the more straightforward this is why we think what we ve suggested in this constitution is a good idea you clearly consider the former to be the primary situation they certainly emphasised a limited role for the federal government but this was not necessarily their true position well i know hamilton was a dyed in the wool monarchist and probably the authoritarian extreme to jefferson s democratic impules but what would you suggest as a means of determining their opinions on the government if we don t consider what they wrote about the government and is writing in support of something automatically propoganda to the point we must assume it is untrue or that they are saying what they don t believe and like the house of lords which it is copied from it was given pretty wide powers unfortunately they started to use them and thus the gridlock set in i wasn t aware the house of lords had wide powers i was under the impression is was pretty powerless compared to the house of commons and certainly didn t have almost equal their powers the senate is restricted only that it may not introduce bills relating to raising revenue the senate was less powerful than the house of lords in the period in question if the senate was less powerful than the house of lords than we d almost have to state that the house of representatives was also in fact they both were because the british government had much greater power than did the american system my reading of the constitution and other writings gives me absolutely no reason to believe the senate wasn t intended to make use of their law making powers in fact grid lock appears to have been designed into the system with the senate being a more deliberative body to act as a check on the more often elected house the system is meant to be slow to react the problem is that it ended up a bit too slow i disagree the system is not too slow it was simply designed to handle less than it has demanded that it handle as somebody in washington put it whose name i forget congress has become everybody s city council congress is more than capable of quick action and has more than enough power and time on its hands if it confined itself to what its original jurisidiction was and allowed more local autonomy it is not a case of the system of government they created failing but that it is operating under a set of conditions they specifically wanted to avoid namely a concentration of power it would seem then that the proper thing to do is not to reduce the power of either house in some attempt to grease the wheels all you ll get then is a system which moves quicker to do stupid things it would make more sense to make more decisions at a local level on what basis do you suggest that the senate was supposed to be some sort of rubber stamp for the house you ll note that while the president s veto may be over ridden the house can t do anything about a veto by the senate the presiden t veto was meant to be entirely separate until bush abused it in a quite extraordinary manner it was used more in accord with the intent of being a check on unreasonable legislation please explain to me how bush abused the veto in an extraordinary manner the veto was clearly regarded as a completely last gasp measure its use was meant to be restricted to preventing the legislature interfering with the actions of the executive i fail to see where any restrictions implied or otherwise were placed on the veto it could just as easily have been read as a means to put a check on democratically popular but unwise in the executive s opinion policies there is no limit in the constitution to the president s veto power regarding what a bill is for previous presidents have used the veto for any number of reasons most usually having something to do with their agenda i am really curious how you single bush out as the president who abused vetos the senate is not meant to be exactly a rubber stamp body it is meant as a check on unrestrained legislation that is the extra measure built into the constitution in favour of the status quo of the representatives of the states is not a reasonable restriction why is it not a reasonable restriction because senators is the magic holy number upon which laws must be based if senators feel safe enough with their state constituencies to stand up and fillibuster isn t that enough to indicate there s a sufficient question as to whether a law is a good idea or not to re evaluate it why one earth should be sufficient to enact a law which covers million people in very very diverse places and living in radically different conditions why shouldn t a super majority be required any system in which the simple majority is given absolute power to ignore the minority then the minority will be ignored i do not see this as a positive thing and for all that i m sure the republicans are looking for pork as much as the democrats they ve got some legitimate objections to the legislation in question david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
talk.politics.misc	re nlns fascism with a friendly face who wants to look through the bars at some reactionary liberal conspiracy theory idiots and see how they rant and rave at the erosion of their populist support this is very typical of the elitist liberal attitude that the people are incapable of thinking for themselves this elitist attitude will be the eventual undoing of the arrogant liberal tide sweeping america as the people begin to realize more and more that they are being treated like errant children and robbed of their freedoms by a bunch of utopian arrogent socialist jerks in article in talk politics misc new liberation news service nlns igc apc org writes subject nlns fascism with a friendly face lines from new liberation news service nlns subject nlns fascism with a friendly face written pm apr by nlns igc apc org in igc nlns news nlns packet fascism with a friendly face does rush limbaugh remind you of anyone daevid bornhuetter machen the madison edge the main difference between adolf hitler and rush limbaugh is that hitler was original and showed initiative mort sahl on the tom snyder radio show abc radio network october although i find myself often disagreeing with the populist rationale of mr limbaugh i find him entertaining and i often agree with his conclusions the fact that he sends liberal reactionaries like these idiots through the roof makes him all the more entertaining nlns believe it or not i was planning this comparative review of mein kampf and limbaugh s transcribed rant the way things ought to be before sahl issued his comparative review as usual sahl s was independent and sharp as a scalpel my effort can only dream of comparing favorably to mort s at least it has a fairly popular orginating premise everyone i d mention the idea to thought it was either divinely inspired or at least past due for delivery those reactions are based on parallels that should be obvious to the most peripheral observer of the acts of those false prophets both are noted for their galvanizing oratorical skills which they both used with passion to generate a political cult of massive numerical proportions in fact limbaugh claims to have an audience of just over million almost identical to the number of votes cast for hitler in the april german election both used a myopic social perspective to build the cult and enthusiastically amputated facts from the record to fabricate their ideological quilt actually i find limbaugh s oratory less than sizzling and his debating skills sometimes lacking even though his conclusions are often correct i would suggest that a bankrupt leftist ideology that hopes to use concentrated political power and a loaded gun to force everyone to do the right things where right is defined by the elitist academics who lead the movement is showing an acute case of myopic social perspective not to mention arrogance and utter stupidity limbaugh is certainly far from perfect but his opponents in the established body politic and the media are the ones arguing for federal control of virtually all aspects of the lives of the citizenry and for the elimination of local control over affairs public perhaps limbaugh has a following because the people are tired of being treated like errant children by a self important group of arrogant controlling myopic people who have no understanding of how life operates outside of the oughta be s inside their own hopelessly closed minds the last point is glaringly documented by passages in the opening pages of both books hitler s example is when on page he claims the german nationalist terrorist leo schlageter he bombed part of a railway line between dusseldorf and duisburg being caught in the act in was betrayed to france by a representative of his government when there has never been any factual foundation for such a statement in fact the governments of both the reich and prussia as well as the vatican actively intervened to save him from execution and almost succeeded ok let us take your word for that and work with it a nice specific incident limbaugh follows suit by making the hysterically sarcastic claim in his introduction that in a school or during a commencement ceremony or many other public places god is unconstitutional of course it s not god but the official imposition of particular concepts of god against an individual s will that s unconstitutional but limbaugh is too gleeful in his talent for distortion to want you to know that hmmm congress shall pass no law regarding an establishment of religion nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof liberal translation the federal government as long as it is run by liberals may force local school districts to include certain iconic content in christmas displays while prohibiting others i think limbaugh has you on this one it seems to me that he is arguing for less imposition of the federal government into religion nice job on the specificity of that one too analysis of historical modern communication media deleted but as mort sahl also observed on the radio the other night some cloutmeister of the radical right wants limbaugh to be a focal point of their propoganda and remember sahl is an al haig conservative these days mort might not know exactly who rush s equivalent of rodolf hess is the book itself suggests ed mclaughlin the former president of abc radio and now limbaugh s partner in efm media the radio program s production company but mort himself is a veteran of the talk show having hosted them in new york washington and los angeles he knows what evil lurks in the hearts of major market media men he knows that limbaugh could not have collected his audience had not the opportunity been placed on a silver platter and handed to him limbaugh earns his money just as honestly as al capone did it s almost worthy of a rico indictment ah yes it is a conspiracy of profound proportions methinks that you may be a bit resentful of mr limbaugh s success because you attribute it primarily to luck how after all could anyone with profound differences of opinion from yourself have become successful without the operation of conspiracy or blind luck do you feel this same level of knee jerk resentment against lottery winners or do you congratulate them on their good fortune on questions of social issues there is an overabundance of material in the limbaugh book that seems to echo hitler s venom for example this should be great fun since it is the liberal movement in america that is pushing the hardest for centralized fascist control of the people and business government business partnership indeed and mr limbaugh is the populist nemesis of that movement i have read mr limbaugh s book and although it was not the most literary piece i have read in recent memory it certainly did not contain venom at all let alone venom comparable to an individual who callously murdered millions out of racism on their own qualifications to control society hitler out of the host of sometimes millions of people who individually more or less clearly and distinctly guess the truth partly perhaps understand it one man author s emphasis must step forward in order to form with apodeictic force out of the wavering world of imagination of the great masses granite principles and to take up the fight for their sole correctness until out of the playing waves of a free world of thought a brazen rock of uniform combination of form and will arises page a very serious tone in that oratory limbaugh who needs the media when they ve got me the show is devoted exclusively to what i think the phrase with half my brain tied behind my back to make it even denotes the egress of mental aptitude i require to engage and demolish liberals and others who disagree with me it might take four or five years but i m convinced the media will slowly and reluctantly come around to my way of thinking kicking and screaming all the way pages and respectively you neglect to mention that mr limbaugh have you ever listened to his show btw continuously encourages his audience to think for themselves rather than blindly following any media icon himself included you yourself mention that he makes no bones about his show being strictly about his own opinions he also adopts a rather satirical approach and presumes his audience to be intelligent enough to distinguish satire from seriousness and he says as much this is in contrast to the average mass media show in which the audience is treated as society s intellectual lowest common denominator i am sure that adolf hitler was a master of satire i am sure he was just kidding when he said that the jews were the cause of germany s problems and needed to be exterminated on religion as the basis of a nation hitler in this world human culture and civilization are inseperably bound up with the existence of the aryan his dying off or his decline would again lower upon this earth the dark veils of a time without culture he who dares to lay hand upon the highest image of the lord sins against the benevolent creator of this miracle and helps in the expulsion from paradise page this is not religion it is clearly a perverse worship of race since christ was a jew it seems quite unlikely that hitler s characterization of the aryan as the highest image of the lord fits with christian doctrine limbaugh america was founded as a judeo christian country but our intellectual and political elites are often either hostile or ambivalent toward religion people for whom belief in god is at best a charming superstition have managed to ban prayer from the public schools for the last thirty years is it only a coincidence that the quality of american education has declined ever since pages private religious schools have a vastly better record of success than publicly funded schools american history is indeed primarily judeo christian i suppose that mr limbaugh pointing out facts is equivalent to adolf hitler worshiping the aryan race i think you might be reaching just a wee bit here on popular culture as a reason for social collapse hitler the fight against the poisoning of the soul has to set in one has only to look at the menus of our movie houses vaudevilles and theatres and one can hardly deny that this is not the right kind of food theatre art literature movies the press billposters and window displays must be cleaned of the symptoms of a rotting world and put into the service of a moral idea of state and culture pages and definite suggestion that the government should control the entertainment industry here limbaugh today hollywood is in trouble the reason is that hollywood has forgotten who its audience is they make fun of people who believe in god they ridicule the traditional family heterosexuality and monagamy they disparage american heroes page just a guess here but i don t think that mr limbaugh would advocate government control of hollywood you should perhaps call his radio show to confirm this i believe this is more a criticism of hollywood and the depraved moral values it espouses not an advocation of government control of hollywood s liberals on the other hand want to have complete government control of our school systems so that the government can teach the people at an early age the right way to view religion and morality i believe mr limbaugh is against this as his satirical use of the young heads full of mush hyperbole indicates on the news meida hitler the activity of the so called liberal press was the work of gravediggers for the german people and the german reich one can pass by in silence the marxist papers of lies it s task is only to break the people s folkish and national spine in order to make it ripe for the yoke of slavery of international capital and its masters the jews page pretty strong conspiracy theory insinuated here with an implicit plea for government power to be used to break up the conspiracy limbaugh elements of the media have jumped on the bandwagon of leftist causes the cynical journalist of the past has been replaced in many cases by an enthusiastic cheerleader for causes during the gulf war cnn correspondent bernard shaw said cnn is a global network we can t take sides cant take sides if they don t realize that their freedom lies in the united states of america and that therefore they should defend this nation they are hopelessly misguided and may i suggest flirting with megalomania pages and indication here that elements of the media since career is a self selected categorization perhaps an inferred larger percentage than represented in the populace at large has a leftist bias doesn t sound too unreasonable no insinuation that cnn should not report in an objective fashion only that for reporters to say that they do not have any personal bias in the situation is disingenuous to megalomaniacal you may disagree and it may well be exagerrated but it is not an unreasonable opinion and mr limbaugh goes well out of his way to make sure that his audience knows that these are his opinions unlike most other reporting that purports to achieve perfect objectivity but in actuality will in some degree or other in a statistical sense reflect the biases of the reporters who is being disingenuous here mr shaw or mr limbaugh again you should ask mr limbaugh himself but i expect that he would oppose government control of the media to continue these comparative excerpts is certainly possible but ultimately too depressing to take in one reading it is indeed depressing to see such myopia and tiresome liberal arrogance liberals love to play games with paradigms as a way of discrediting people who disagree with them why don t you challenge conservative ideology on an intellectual level rather than engaging in ludicrous comparisons perhaps the underpinnings of your ideology are intellectual only in that they exist in your mind not the real world after putting these books down there is one undeniable fact that haunts me in the s adolf hitler fed depressed and frightened germans the opiate of hatred of those around them in turn it allowed germans to hand their collective national power to the nazis in the s rush limbaugh is doing the very same thing distributing hatred to depressed and frightened americans in turn it is helping the american radical right to maintain its power base as the year nightmare of the reagan bush era comes to an end hoping to rebuild it into their hopes for the fascist states of america perhaps there are a few among the intellectually challenged who percieve rush limbaugh as a hate monger but in my experience he has been spreading laughter at the ludicrous self importance of the left not hatred as to mr bush you may be correct about his fascist economic leanings mr reagan on the other hand did his best to reverse the fascist trend of government involvement in business mr clinton is increasing fascism in america through business government partnership and increased levels of taxation perhaps you should not have skipped your vocabulary classes in grade school and if limbaugh is not as repellant a hitler it is only because the radical right utilizes limbaugh as its own gateway opiate one can only wonder what the ultimate drug is they plan to hook america on hmmm seems to me that limbaugh is not in any way comparable to hitler because he has not murdered six million jews and many many others out of racism i come from a mixed race family so i am quite well attuned to racism i don t hear any coming from rush limbaugh the only place i hear racism coming from these days and being taken seriously is from the liberal left the liberal left is the movement i see trying to get america hooked on the opiates of socialized medicine socialized transportation socialized education etc the left already has america hopelessly addicted to that liberal drug the social security chain letter it is quite clear to me that while the hitler analogy does not really apply to either rush limbaugh or william jefferson clinton if one of the two is closer than the other it is clearly the fascist clinton the madison edge can be reached at po box madison wi this is the same address as idiots anonymous isn t it matt freivald liborgalism thinking is irrelevant integrity is irrelevant free speech is irrelevant private property is irrelevant personal responsibility is irrelevant conservativism is futile you will be assimilated these are my opinions only and not those of my employer
talk.politics.misc	re mow bodycount any thoughts on who is going to count all of the gorgeous bodies at the mow the press the white house staff the most junior senator the king of the motss bi just curious as to whose bias we are going to see when the numbers get brought out probably law enforcement people park service police and d c cops who will use aerial photographs and extrapolate based on the density of the crowd in small regions these sort of techniques derive from army intelligence and cia methods of estimating troop strength and tend to be methodologically skewed to always come up with inflated numbers so as to justify bigger budgets steve
talk.politics.misc	abolish selective service the selective service registration should be abolished to start with the draft is immoral whether you agree with that or not we don t have one now and military experts agree that the quality of the armed forces is superior with a volunteer army than with draftees finally the government has us on many lists in many computers the irs social security admistration and motor vehicle registries to name a few and it can find us if it needs to maintaining yet another list of people is an utter waste of money and time let s axe this whole department and reduce the deficit a little bit dave borden borden m harvard edu
talk.politics.misc	re clinton s immunization program in article c jobh zt apollo hp com goykhman apollo hp com red herring writes in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu jlinder magnus acs ohio state edu jeffrey s linder writes in article c fjsl is ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr c om mark wilson writes on the news last night clinton was bashing the republicans for stonewalling his so called stimulus package it seems that one small item within this package was going to pay for free immunizations for poor kids immunizations for children in this country are already free if you care to go have it done the problem is not the cost it is the irresponible parents who are to stupid or to lazy to have it done i don t know where you live but this is not the case nationawide perhaps your state or municipality has put together the funds to do so but in my area and most areas where i know people immunizations cost sorry to shatter your stereotypes in case you haven t noticed clintonites are pushing a universal health care access program access here means that folks who do not give a damn about immunizing their children will have health care services delivered to their doorsteps disclaimer opinions expressed are mine not my employer s
talk.politics.misc	re the tories could win the lottery clinton gst oh boy it s the in famous phill hallam baker in article c jy gk dscomsa desy de hallam zeus desy de writes in article apr news columbia edu gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes cmk world std com charles m kozierok writes gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes but like basic plus cable you have to tell them that you don t want it for example hutterite colonies in western canada are not part of it mennon and hutter were fundamentalist protestants from germany whose followers left for the new world mennonites are a very diverse lot while hutterites are similiar to the amish the american idea being floated today gives you no option but to live off the land the selfish bastards that they are unfortunately that number has diminished recently but once president pinocchio gets through with us i hope for a reversal of trend well here we have the right hoping for more selfish bastards pity they don t look at what years of the regan bush selfish bastard ecconomy has done to the country how about what years of tax and spend big government institutionalized dependency and out of control good intentions at others expense has done to the country elect a selfish bastard government and they will run the country for themselves thats why they are selfish bastards bush and regan gave tax breaks for the ultra rich and paid for them by borrowing against the incomes of the middle class yeah right and clinton is any different please he is just a better lia i mean politician you think slick and his gang of elitist socialist academics will lead us to the promised land don t hold your breath charles
talk.politics.misc	re capital gains tax increase loses money in apr midway uchicago edu thf midway uchicago edu sez in article apr desire wright edu demon desire wright edu not a boomer writes no i m saying any long term investor the ones likely to have large capital gains would be foolish to sell in order to avoid a tax hike that a might disappear in any given year and b be overcome in a year or two by accumlated gains to which my response is so what not all people who pay capital gains taxes are long term investors more than enough of them aren t for there to be huge blip whenever capital gains taxes get raised i never said that everyone would find this advantageous i said that more than enough would for the result to be readily noticeable and distort trends even if brett s eventual return figures were correct and they clearly weren t he d still be wrong about the cause for the blip because he fails to consider basic factors as ted notes not everyone is a long term investor one might find oneself as i did in late anticipating expenses in the near term that require selling off holdings given the choice between waiting a few weeks and taking an extra tax hit or selling in december with preferential tax treatment only a fool would choose the former the fact that brett can now construct post hoc calculations of what would have been more beneficial to investors is in many respects beside the point there was plenty of money style advice given to unsophisticated investors in late to sell now and save on taxes in case anyone missed it there was no shortage of similar advice late last year in the nytimes e g even though that advice was based not on the foregone conclusion of enacted law as in but merely on the assumption that clinton would raise tax rates without capping cg taxes contrary to the current proposal it s nice to think that investors always behave in their optimal economic interest like assuming weightless ropes and frictionless pulleys though this sort of thinking often fails to describe accurately what happens in the real world moral always choose the right sort of parents before you start in to be rough george ade mark eckenwiler eck panix com cmcl panix eck
talk.politics.misc	re fillibuster in article c jpl cz dscomsa desy de hallam zeus desy de writes in article apr martha utcc utk edu pa utkvm utk edu david veal writes and like the house of lords which it is copied from it was given pretty wide powers unfortunately they started to use them and thus the gridlock set in i wasn t aware the house of lords had wide powers i was under the impression is was pretty powerless compared to the house of commons and certainly didn t have almost equal their powers the senate is restricted only that it may not introduce bills relating to raising revenue the senate was less powerful than the house of lords in the period in question the stripping of the powers of the house of lords did not occur until and david llloyd george s budget even despite this the house of lords has considerable power even today and is far from a rubber stamping body just how much power does the house of lords have now who said anything about panicking snapped authur garrett johnson this is still just culture shock you wait till i ve garrett ingres com settled into the situation and found my bearings then i ll start panicking douglas adams
talk.politics.misc	re to be or not to be a disaster in article philc ht h netcom com phil netcom com phil ronzone writes not at all you are apparently just another member of the religious left not at all i am not a member of the religious left right or even center in fact i don t consider myself very religious at all this will probably result in flames now in fact phil you should leave religion out of it it just clouds the issue show me all these environmental disasters most of them aren t and the natural disasters we have had individually far outweigh the man made ones how typical so you think we shouldn t avoid these events i shall refrain from the word disaster since it seems to upset you so much when we can in case you didn t realize it the natural disasters oops sorry events you are refering to we have no control over man made ones we do i guess you missed the show on ch earlier this week about the disaster oops there i go again i meant to say event on the exxon valdez just a natural every day occurance to spread oil on miles of beach i would like to know which natural event hey i remembered not to say disaster that would be similar to this most of your so called disasters love canal times beach tmi aren t disasters at all hmm i suppose you could be right they are as natural as a tree or a sunrise not so look if you want to worship trees or owls or snails or whatever fine do so but don t try to push the scaredness of your religious off onto me so look if you want to worship a oil slick or toxic waste dump or live in a house that has a cesspool in the front yard fine you have my permission to do so yea right like you need my permission it just won t be in the neighborhood where i live but don t try to push your shortsighted tunnelvision views off on the rest of us russell hockins there are people who believe that there is innovative interfaces inc no such thing as an environmental disaster pretty weird ain t it my own opinions no one elses packet ka foy ki yk nocal ca na usa
talk.politics.misc	re nc vs hunt marine gay bashing in wilmington nc verdict tfarrell lynx dac northeastern edu thomas farrell writes so you feel that the defendents should have been convicted regardless of the evidence now that would truely be a sad day for civil rights i don t know about everybody else but to me they should have been convicted because of the evidence which in my mind was quite sufficient so you sat in the court room and listened to the case after careful consideration you have come to your conclusion well good for you
talk.politics.misc	re mr cramer s evidence in article philc hsii gft netcom com phil netcom com phil ronzone writes in article apr sun urz uni heidelberg de gsmith lauren iwr uni heidelberg de gene w smith writes when are libertarians going to draw a clear line between themselves and nambla by your own statements you were once a member of an organization which you knew supported exactly what nambla supports namely abolishing the age of consent i ve never supported any such organization you have while both organizations may on paper support the abolition of the age of consent there the resemblance stops one supports the removal of a coercive law the other a paper facade to legitimize sexual relations with children what s the difference in practice it amounts to your saying it s disgusting but should be legal or someone else saying let s allow the parties involved to decide what is disgusting or if you re like me you think that it isn t a coercive law because some children can t make informed consent brian kane buast astro bu edu hot young star astronomy dept boston university boston ma true personal salvation is achieved by absolute faith in ones true self
talk.politics.misc	re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes in article apr tijc uucp pjs tijc uucp paul schmidt writes steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes as noted in another thread limiting govt the problem libertarians face is insuring that the limited government they seek does not become the tool of private interests to pursue their own agenda it is a failure of libertarianism if the ideology does not provide any reasonable way to restrain such actions other than utopian dreams you seem to be saying that a limited government will provide more opportunities for private interests to use it to pursue their own agendas and asking libertarians to prove that this will not happen while i can t offer such a proof it seems pretty damn plausible that if the government does not regulate a particular area it cannot become a tool of private interests to pursue their own agendas in that area i rather suspect that it s the sort of government we have now that is more likely to become such a tool and that it is such a tool in many instances just as marxism fails to specify how pure communism is to be achieved and the state is to wither away libertarians frequently fail to show how weakening the power of the state will result in improvement in the human condition i suspect that this is because improvement in the human condition as you define it is not the primary goal of libertarianism and would not be the primary goal of a libertarian government my impression of libertarianism is that its primary goal is the elimination of government coercion except in a very limited cases ian sutherland ian eecs nwu edu sans peur
talk.politics.misc	re the tories could win the lottery clinton gst phill hallam baker hallam zeus desy de writes gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes cmk world std com charles m kozierok writes gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes secondly any canadian who has worked and participates in the insurance it s a negative option you have to explicitly decline it knows that the premium is deducted separately yes and some americans actually have a problem with having more of their money taken from them to pay for others health care but note again the canadian and german health insurance is voluntary not true i am required to have insurance by law the method of collection effectively makes it a tax could it be because you re british phill and living in germany while the ec working rules are more liberal than what we have in the us canada fta there s probably a law about that having health insurance coverage is a condition of my being down here for example you have mentioned this once before yet both the ny times profile on the german sickness funds late jan and pamphlets that my girlfriend gives to her language students from the german consulate both say that it is voluntary okay there were quotation marks and that only of the population is covered by the sickness funds analogous to our provincial health insurances but not divided by province state another guy in health care policy says that the turkish guest workers aren t covered he s written to me a couple of times he s not a post er i ll ask him gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
talk.politics.misc	re gore throws out the first ball and media coverage of it in article apr hsh com paul hsh com paul havemann writes in article apr hemlock cray com rja mahogany cray com russ anderson writes in article c e ja ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com mark wilson writes this past thursday vp gore threw out the first ball at the home opener for the atlanta braves according to the news reports he was quite loudly booed no dr norman these were not your typical beer swilling red necks personally i wouldn t have paid any more attention to the incident except that the evening news when describing the event went on to comment that being booed was nothing unusual since it was normal for audiences to boo at this point since the celebrity was delaying the start of the game what a bunch of crock i have never heard of any incident in which the thrower of the ceremonial ball has been booed before dan quayle got roundly booed in milwaulkee last year i was listening on the radio this was the game that quayle told the brewers players that he would like to see them play the orioles in the alcs it s come to this has it defending al gore by comparing him to dan quayle who compared quayle to gore mark said he had never heard of any incident in which the thrower of the ceremonial ball had been booed before i mentioned another incident and if the media had a liberal bias i m sure he would have heard of the quayle incident if i was to compare quayle to anyone it most likely would be elmer fudd i d say that about says it all back to the pit with ye back to alt fan dan quayle begone russ anderson disclaimer any statements are my own and do not reflect upon my employer or anyone else c ex twins jack morris innings pitched runs world series mvp
talk.politics.misc	re how many homosexuals are there perhaps but most likely not more than a new study discrediting kinsey says so the views expressed herein are theodore a kaldis my own only do you seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe that a major university rutgers remus rutgers edu kaldis as this would hold such views
talk.politics.misc	re using california s antidiscrimination the sort of case i predicted in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes in article apr armory com rstevew armory com richard steven walz writes face it clayton he was not found guilty and so what if gays sometimes make it consensually with year old boys there are year old gays you know and as i recall the case of the state rested on the testimony of one victim who declined to testify even under threat i have had teens since i was and so have a lot of people face it clayton you re just a jerk rsw richard steven walz rstevew deeptht armory com maple street without safe and free abortion women are santa cruz ca organ surrogates to unwanted parasites i am always amazed to see people admit to breaking the law and putting their address in the signature please tell us more about this were they would you like to make a statement for the district attorney i had sex with a year old boy it was great we did everything well a hell of a lot it was fun anyway oh and before you turn purple with rage i was at the time clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	the manitoban candidate bross sandbanks cosc brocku ca brian ross writes in the world of the future bill clinton will appoint canadians to govern all american institutions starting with the american health care system we will be benevolent canadian dictators with yet another tax being floated by the clinton administration to pay for new free social programs i ve really begun to suspect that the canadians long resentful of their place in the american shadow brainwashed an american draft dodger who fled to canada some time between and tutored him in the ways of canadian socialism awarded him with smokeless marijuana cigarettes when he got the correct answers then returned him to the states under the control of the domineering wife assigned to his case to attain high public office and destroy the evil individualistic and free market forces in america thus shaping america in the canadian image steven smith
talk.politics.misc	re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate in article apr eecs nwu edu ian nasser eecs nwu edu ian sutherland writes in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes in article apr tijc uucp pjs tijc uucp paul schmidt writes steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes it is a failure of libertarianism if the ideology does not provide any reasonable way to restrain such actions other than utopian dreams you seem to be saying that a limited government will provide more opportunities for private interests to use it to pursue their own agendas and asking libertarians to prove that this will not happen while i can t offer such a proof it seems pretty damn plausible that if the government does not regulate a particular area it cannot become a tool of private interests to pursue their own agendas in that area i rather suspect that it s the sort of government we have now that is more likely to become such a tool and that it is such a tool in many instances pardon me for interrupting but why doesn t anyone ever bring up other possibilities besides more government less government or no government and stop there it seems to me that the problems with society go much deeper than government democracies seem to reflective of the majority of society both the good and the bad if you take away the government you still have the structural flaws in society except this time with no restraints yes no why doesn t anybody ever discuss communal society like a kibbutz i never studied it on depth but from what i ve heard the kibbutz in isreal was very successful it is also very close to what aristotle and socrates believed was the best sorry to detract from the discussion just as marxism fails to specify how pure communism is to be achieved and the state is to wither away libertarians frequently fail to show how weakening the power of the state will result in improvement in the human condition i suspect that this is because improvement in the human condition as you define it is not the primary goal of libertarianism and would not be the primary goal of a libertarian government my impression of libertarianism is that its primary goal is the elimination of government coercion except in a very limited cases but what good is change if there is no tracable improvement in the human condition who would ever support the change if you tell them it won t improve their lives i know that there are and will be libertarians who will jump in now and say that it will improve our lives i can deal with that all i m saying is that improving the human condition must be the primary goal of any organization ian sutherland ian eecs nwu edu who said anything about panicking snapped authur garrett johnson this is still just culture shock you wait till i ve garrett ingres com settled into the situation and found my bearings then i ll start panicking douglas adams
talk.politics.misc	clinton am press briefing by dee dee myers the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april press briefing by dee dee myers the briefing room a m edt q why was the a m postponed ms myers just due to scheduling conflicts so as we put out the president will meet with the leaders of the national police organizations at p m in the rose garden as opposed to a m the only other things on his schedule today are at a m he ll meet with general vessey who as you know is on his way to vietnam to continue working on the mia pow issue at p m he ll have lunch with the vice president in the oval office and at p m he ll meet with the police organizations then from p m to p m he ll do his weekly photos with the various groups q a photo op with vessey ms myers there s no coverage on the vessey meeting q why ms myers why it s a closed meeting q what about the lunch ms myers the lunch no there s no coverage q is he meeting with any congress people today ms myers nothing scheduled q there are no meetings ms myers there are no congressional meetings today no q has the president been given any information by the pentagon or reached any conclusion about the validity of this report from hanoi any instructions to vessey on how to deal with the vietnamese on that subject ms myers well clearly the report is the first order of business it s high on the agenda on something that they ll discuss i think the president and general vessey will discuss the parameters of his visit to vietnam today but the president hasn t drawn any conclusions about the report yet certainly it s something that he wants general vessey to talk with the vietnamese about first q did the president talk with any republican senators yesterday about the stimulus package ms myers he spoke with senator dole q how many times ms myers i believe once during the day and once last night q what was the outcome of that ms myers they re continuing to work toward some kind of an agreement on a jobs package q is it your impression that senator dole is in any way flexible on this ms myers well i think we re hopeful that we re going to get some kind of jobs package through the senate and we ll continue to work with senator dole and others until we reach some kind of an agreement q did they discuss the vat tax ms myers i don t know if that came up q can you check that ms myers sure q so what are they is the president offering to scale down his program is that what he s trying to do buy it down to where dole will sign on ms myers well he s trying to protect as much of it as he can but it s important to him to get some kind of a jobs package through the senate and through congress now and as soon as we reach some conclusions on that we ll let you know but at the moment he s continuing to consult with members of congress including obviously senator dole q is he talking to anybody else ms myers i don t believe he talked to any other republicans yesterday q is he talking to anybody today ms myers i don t think anything is scheduled but i wouldn t rule it out q we were led to believe that the president called mr dole on the subject of russian aid and that bob dole brought the conversation around to stimulus package is that correct ms myers i think the president has contacted several people on russian aid i think that it was always expected that the stimulus package or the jobs package will be part of any conversation he would have with senator dole the primary objective of the conversation was russian aid that was the first order of business but it was both q in the president s mind are they linked politically in that if the republicans continue to reject the stimulus package he thinks it will be harder to sell russian aid to the american people has he made that argument ms myers i can t talk about specifically what arguments he might have made the president is obviously committed to both he liked to see a jobs package to the american people first but as you know we outlined the details of additional russian aid last night in tokyo q but does the president believe that the stimulus package will make it more difficult to persuade americans to vote for russian to accept a vote for russian aid ms myers i think that the president is going to continue to work to pass the stimulus package to pass a jobs package and we re still hopeful that we ll get some kind of jobs package through the congress q is it fair to say that the president is negotiating now with dole ms myers he s discussing options with him q on the stimulus is it your understanding that over the break some democrats themselves have left the support that they had earlier for the package the stimulus package ms myers i think we still have wide support in the senate for the jobs package q but specifically that you ve lost democrats other than shelby ms myers i don t believe so there hasn t been a vote q what about kohl q kohl and feingold ms myers there hasn t been a vote yet and we ll continue to work with senators to try to get a majority to try to bring the package to a vote because we believe that a majority of the members of the united states senate support the package q if you re weren t worried about kohl and feingold why did george mention milwaukee projects the other day ms myers i think george pointed out a number of projects in a number of states that stand to be funded or to lose funding if this jobs package doesn t pass q no democrats laughter ms myers i ll let you draw your own conclusions q does he plan to talk to dole again today or any other republicans again today ms myers there s nothing specifically scheduled but again i wouldn t rule it out q does he plan to put out any more press releases to any other states today ms myers what we ve done is we re in the process of breaking down the benefits of the jobs package state by state i think it s entirely feasible that as we sort of are able to sum those up we ll send out press releases to the various states that suggest how their states would benefit from this package q will you share those with us ms myers sure as we did yesterday q do you have copies of the ones you sent ms myers yes we made those available yesterday and we certainly can continue to provide them today q dee dee since yesterday s questions and subsequent stories about the vat what further consideration of this issue has been given ms myers nothing s changed since yesterday i think the president commented on it this morning to say only that it was something he knew was being considered by the task force and that he has not made a decision on and i don t think we have anything to add to that q but he also said that business and labor groups are telling him they support it can you tell us ms myers i think that there has been i m not going to speculate on who supports it i think the president said that there has been some support among business and labor groups i don t think he said he was directly contacted by them q are we to take that to mean that the administration has sounded out business and labor groups on this ms myers i think there s been plenty of public discourse on this over the years and even recently but i don t think i want to add to that q in february though the president said that this was something to be considered or years down the road what has happened between then and now to cause this administration to change its mind ms myers i think as we said yesterday it is something that the working groups are looking at they re considering a wide variety of options on everything from funding to specific options that will be covered by the president s health care plan the president has not taken it up yet has not made a decision on it and beyond that i don t have anything to add q you haven t answered the question it wasn t being considered by anyone in the white house after the president s comments in february and george reaffirmed that in a briefing q and then suddenly q what happened ms myers the working groups as we have said throughout we instructed to consider a wide variety of options across the board and one of the things that has been talked about and that they are clearly considering is some kind of a value added tax q but the president himself took this off the table dee dee and suddenly it reappears and this goes to the credibility of this administration in a way what has happened in the meantime ms myers the president has not looked at this it hasn t been presented to him again yet the working groups are looking at it as they re looking at a wide variety of options and no decisions have been made q and it raises the question of how independently the task force is working ms myers the task force was instructed to consider all options and they ve taken that mandate seriously and they re considering all options q but that s not the impression that the president left in february the impression he left was that this was something that was long range to be looked at years down the road the clear implication of his remarks was that this was something that was not on the table not an option q if it changes i ll tell you q bring him on q and you repeatedly referred to the president s remarks telling us that those were still in operation ms myers it s changed and we told you laughter q but that s what alice rivlin s comments and donna shalala comments were about i mean that seemed like an orchestrated effort because you have two independent cabinet officers ms myers i wouldn t no alice rivlin s not a cabinet member first of all second of all it was not orchestrated but clearly they both said yesterday and in the last couple of days that it s something that s being looked at we confirmed that yesterday and i don t have anything to add to that q is it because he has very few options q is this something that it will be incumbent upon the task force to convince the president about in other words has the president himself personally ruled it out and it s now up to the task force to convince him to put it back on the table or is it in fact back on the table having been placed there by discussions with the president ms myers it is not the working group s mission at this point to convince the president of anything it is their mission to put before him his options and to explain the benefits and the costs and the basic pros and cons of each of those options i think that they will certainly present the vat to him in that context and at this point he s not that presentation has not been made but it s something that he will hear and he has not made a decision on q they will present it to him as one of his options though he specifically ruled it out ms myers correct q dee dee is this more than a trial balloon is this a serious consideration that the working groups are giving to this form of taxation ms myers it s simply a statement of fact the working groups are considering a wide variety of options on a number of issues relating to health care reform one of the options that they re looking at is the vat q dee dee when the working groups were examining this possibility was this on the table during the same time period that you were telling us that it was not ms myers i don t know what the specific timing of their drafting of options is i don t know q who was telling you that it was not under consideration ms myers i was referring back to the president s comments q have they discovered that the sin taxes won t raise enough money to fund the core benefit package ms myers no there s no decisions that have been made on how to pay for the health care plan q i m asking whether the projections ms myers there s a number of options depending on how the plan is structured you can t decide how much the plan is going to cost until you decide what the plan is going to look like and so you can t discuss what financing options have been ruled in our out until you know q dee dee we ve been told that they have a computer models on a number of possible packages ms myers correct q the question is whether they have now determined whether sin taxes would not produce enough money for even the barest minimum package that is not a very difficult computation ms myers it is a question that you know that we re not going to answer until there s a number of options being considered it depends on how the package is structured the exact details of the package and the financing mechanisms used to pay for them are all among the decisions that have yet to be made q and when the president has been meeting with health care his health care advisors which we are told he has been doing ms myers correct q they have never once said to him these are your funding options including the vat he has never heard the word vat in his ms myers i am not going to comment on the specific nature of the daily they re not daily but the quasi regular briefings q well you have ms myers i have not other than to say that he s not considered the vat and i think that is a true statement q no but you said that it has not been presented to him as an option ms myers correct q that doesn t mean he hasn t heard about it ms myers i m not going to get into the details of what s discussed i think that statement stands for itself q specific dee dee when you say he hasn t looked at it do you mean that he hasn t looked at it in terms of paying for medical coverage or hasn t looked at it in general because back in chilicothe he was very specific in defining how it works what the advantages are the whole thing it sounds like ms myers but that was i think in chilicothe if you go back to his remarks there it was a broader philosophical discussion of the tax structure and i think the comments were generally in reference to the overall economic plan but clearly it s something that he s thought about in the broad context i mean that was clear in chilicothe what i m saying is that in the process of the working groups it s something that he hasn t considered yet it s something that the working groups will present to him among the number of options and that no decisions have been made and i m not going to comment any further on the details of the meetings where health care issues are being discussed q it s your statement from this podium that no discussion of this has taken place you say that no option that the option has not been presented to him ms myers that is correct q do you stand by does the white house still stand by george s statement in march that this will not be in the proposal ms myers no decisions have been made we have nothing to add to what s already been said q let me follow up here do you stand by what rivlin said yesterday that if any kind of vat were to be used or considered that other changes to the tax code would have to be made so that it would be less regressive ms myers i m not going to comment any further on what might happen if q but do you stand by the previous conversations in february that if there were to be a vat i think the president said you d exclude food and energy ms myers i m not going to comment on the specific structure of a decision that hasn t been made q was the president aware prior to donna shalala s comments yesterday that this was under consideration by the working groups ms myers i don t know specifically what q could you check for us because that s a real important credibility question ms myers sure q since the task force was brought together this issue has been discussed at the beginning and throughout as one fairly painless way to raise a lot of money were you all kept in the dark was the press office kept in the dark over the past month and a half when you ve been denying that a vat tax would be considered that it was actually on the table over there as an option ms myers i think we ve said all that we have to say it is something the working groups are looking at the president has not made a decision about it yet and beyond that i have nothing to add q well sorry dee dee there are still a couple of questions that we are going to have to ask because we have a problem with credibility here yours primarily what we re asking is if you all were not told at all that this thing was being considered while you were coming out here and telling us that it was not or if it s a case that you were coming out here and deliberately misleading us ms myers i don t believe that anyone has ever come out here and deliberately misled you from this podium ever ever q has anyone tried to shade it a little bit to indicate something has anybody told anybody to come out ms myers we re not trying to shade answers or deliberately mislead anybody i ve said what i have to say about this issue q all we were trying to find out ms myers i understand what you re trying to find out and i ve given you the answers helen q we re trying to find out what changed what made it an option again that s the ms myers the working groups were given a broad mandate to investigate all options and they are doing that q yes but it wasn t an option before how can you investigate it if the president has taken it off the table ms myers it is something that they re obviously considering and the president has not made a decision on q yes but he took it off the table in february ms myers working groups are considering it they ll present it to the president at some point and he ll make a decision q why would they consider it if he has taken it off the table ms myers it s clearly on the table q yes but he took it off the table did he change his mind ms myers it s back on the table bill q did he change his mind ms myers he said this morning that he hasn t made a decision about it he obviously knows that it s on the table it s something that he will look at at some and when we have a decision on this we ll let you know q so he must have changed his mind right ms myers at some point it will be looked at i mean q dee dee there s like two options either he changed his mind or the working groups think they re authority exceeds the president s ms myers the working groups were given a broad mandate to look at all options they ve done that q are you going to put out his income tax ms myers yes there will be something available on his income tax probably later this afternoon his return will be available q will there be any kind of briefing to go through it ms myers no nothing s planned i think someone will be available probably not in a briefing setting but to walk you through the questions q we re used to be walked line by line through the presidential tax forms ms myers i ve seen those briefings laughter q could we have one ms myers no i don t think there will be any kind of a formal briefing but there will be somebody available to answer your questions about it q did they file a joint form ms myers yes q when did he file it ms myers i believe it s being filed today q dee dee is there going to be a backgrounder for miyazawa ms myers no there will be a readout after the meeting q no backgrounder today ms myers no backgrounder today q this is complicated stuff we need help laughter ms myers we can t give you taxes and miyazawa all in one day it s too confusing laughter q vance and owen have opened the doors on the use of force in bosnia they ve both said that a they never ruled it out and b it might be necessary now does that influence your thinking on whether or not to change your approach ms myers there s been no change in our policy towards bosnia we have always said that we d consider q but does that impact upon your decision are they people whose opinions would carry weight with you ms myers they re people whose opinions carry weight certainly i mean the president supports the process that they ve initiated but there s been no change in our policy for bosnia although we re considering a number of options right now if the serbs don t come back to the negotiating table if they don t sign on to some kind of an agreement we will consider additional options which we ve been saying regularly q one follow up question then we cannot get a straight answer from anyone in the administration why do you not set a deadline for the serbs can you tell us the strategic or tactical reasons for not giving them a deadline to come to the table ms myers we re continuing to put pressure on them every day q which doesn t work so ms myers well we think it is having some effect we re going to continue to tighten sanctions as you know we support the omnibus resolution we expect that to come to a vote on the th q you say it s having an effect can you give us any documentation ms myers i d be happy to provide somebody to talk to you about the impact of the sanctions and things like that q there s been no you have not been able to provide anybody who can tell us that the sanctions have had any effect in bosnia serbia yes in bosnia no ms myers i think that they ve had effect in serbia and we think they ve had some effect in bosnia and again i ll be happy to provide somebody to walk you through the details of that if you d like q we would like to hear from someone who can show us what the effect has been in bosnia we had the briefing on all of the terrible things that are happening in belgrade but we haven t seen anything that indicates an impact on the fighting can you provide something along those lines ms myers i will see what i can get you q on the extra russian aid that christopher announced this morning where is that money coming from ms myers we ll have to work with congress on the details of that package q so that would be new money that you would hope to get ms myers yes that s new money in addition to the billion announced in vancouver so i assume that you all have seen the billion package that was announced this morning in tokyo by secretary christopher q isn t there a concern though about offering something which you have to get in congress i mean that was the concern with vancouver you didn t want to do that ms myers the concern with vancouver was to do something immediately which required money that was already approved in the fiscal budget what we re looking at now is a little bit longer term plan to build on top of the billion that we announced in vancouver this clearly will require congressional approval or some of it will anyway and we re going to continue to work with congress to make that happen q to what extent has that been vetted or agreed to by congress ms myers the president has had a number of conversations with members and will continue to work with them as this process moves forward q was christopher able to put this package out with a fair degree of understanding that you will be able to get it through congress ms myers it was created in consultation with congress q in meeting with the law enforcement officials is that does that have a set speech and a goal a direction ms myers yes the president will talk about and the law enforcement organizations are endorsing the president s jobs package they believe particularly the summer jobs package will help give kids something to do q who are they ms myers it s members or leadership from three organizations napo which is the national association of police organizations ibpo which is the international brotherhood of police organizations i believe and iupa which is the international union of police associations q will the fbi chief be there ms myers the fbi chief no q or any other federal law enforcement officials ms myers no it will be the president and these national law enforcement organization leaders q does the billion announced today include the million that s in the fy budget for disarmament ms myers no the nunn lugar money is separate q so this would be the million that s in the budget already plus another billion ms myers i believe all of this is on top of the million already in the budget q is this going to be part of the supplemental or fiscal ms myers we ll work with congress on the exact funding mechanism on exactly how this will be paid for q this billion on top of ms myers on top of million on top of the million nunn lugar money we announced earlier q and this is what prompted the president to call bob dole it was on this tranche not on the previous money he was calling bob dole ms myers correct q is there a briefing on miyazawa ms myers there will be a readout after the meeting with miyazawa tomorrow q dee dee on a totally unrelated matter some republicans who are active in the u s chamber of commerce are complaining about this new cozy relationship between the white house and the chamber of commerce there are the town hall meeting the other night the satellite and all of this relationship does the white house feel that you re getting too close to these chambers of commerce ms myers that s an interesting charge laughter after how many years of democrats being accused of not paying any attention to the chambers now there are those who would accuse us of being too close i think that s interesting but no we re thrilled by the support we ve received from the national chamber and local chambers across the country and we ll continue to work with them on this and other initiatives q what s the status of the president thinking about going to this democratic retreat ms myers it s on his calendar i think he ll almost certainly go q all three days ms myers we haven t figured out exactly when he ll be there yet q is it open to coverage ms myers no i believe the whole thing is closed q is he going to have any kind of address statement anything at all on the gay rights march on the th ms myers we re still looking at that we haven t made a final decision about how we ll who will make a statement or what q any meetings scheduled with any of the leaders ms myers nothing is scheduled but i wouldn t rule it out q what about an aids czar ms myers it s coming q anything on the weekend q there s been a suggestion that he s going to this retreat to avoid having to participate in the gay rights or appear or have any involvement in the gay rights march ms myers no i think this is something he s been discussing for a long time appearing at the senate democratic retreat q the weekend ms myers weekend don t know the only thing on right now is the radio address on saturday q any travel plans ms myers if it changes none right now q he s not going to be off campaigning for his stimulus package ms myers no specific plans right now q what about mid week anything likely ms myers it s possible yes i think it s likely that we ll travel next week certainly the weekend q has he called thurmond about his daughter ms myers i don t know i ll check q going to name a drug czar this weekend ms myers this weekend i don t believe so q and the radio address on saturday is that going to be focused on the stimulus package ms myers i m sure it will the press thank you end a m edt
talk.politics.misc	clinton vp gore joins students in orlando for st kids earth summit white house office of the vice president for immediate release contact heidi kukis thursday april julia payne gore joins students in orlando for first kids earth summit will take part in special town meeting on the environment saturday april orlando florida wasington joining students from across the united states and around the world for the first ever kids earth summit vice president al gore will travel to orlando florida on saturday and participate in a special town hall meeting hosted by linda ellerbee for broadcast on nickelodeon to hear the young people s concerns and share ideas about the environment the vice president will take part in the kids world council plan it for the planet from pm edt saturday in orlando florida he will tour a display of student environmental projects then videotape the town hall meeting where he will discuss with student delegates their concerns about the environment and their plans for an environmentally sound future the town hall meeting will be moderated by linda ellerbee and taped for a news special nickelodeon special edition plan it for the planet which will air on sunday april at pm edt it is sponsored by nickelodeon and the children s earth fund young people care about the environment because they know it affects our future across the country and around the world young people are speaking out about the environmental challenges we face they are identifying problems thinking about solutions and they are demanding action from their leaders the vice president said the kids world council delegates are meeting for three days in orlando to discuss how to save energy and switch to renewable energy they will be following the format and goals of the earth summit that took place last year in rio de janeiro the vice president led the senate delegation to the earth summit i look forward to hearing what young people have to say about the environment and their future their insight into the world around us is important the vice president said more schedule for the vice president saturday april pm edt vice president tours display of student environmental projects nickelodeon studios orlando florida pm edt vice president takes part in town hall meeting with kids world council delegates and linda ellerbee nickelodeon studios orlando florida pm edt vice president departs from kids world council for washington d c note press that wish to attend should contact eileen parise or marty von ruden in florida at
talk.politics.misc	clinton remarks to law enforcement leaders the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april remarks by the president to law enforcement organizations the rose garden p m edt the president good afternoon ladies and gentlemen two months ago i presented a comprehensive plan to reduce our national deficit and to increase our investment in the american people their jobs and their economic future the federal budget plan passed congress in record time and created a new sense of hope and opportunity in the country then the short term jobs plan i presented to congress which would create a half a million jobs in the next two years passed the house of representatives two weeks ago it now has the support of a majority of the united states senate all of these members of congress know it s time to get the economy moving again to get job growth going again to get a fast start on the investments we need to build a lasting prosperity unfortunately a minority of the members of the united states senate have used gridlock tactics to prevent their colleagues from working the will of the majority on the jobs bill when congress returns i ask every senator from every state and from both parties to remember what is at stake the issue is not politics it s people sixteen million of them are looking for full time jobs and can t find them these men and women don t care about who s up or down in washington they care about paying the rent and meeting the mortgage payment about putting food on the table and buying shoes for their children about regaining a sense of dignity that comes from doing a day s work and supporting their families and drawing a paycheck they re asking those of us who have the privilege of serving to put aside politics and do something now to move our economy forward i am prepared to do that and i have been working with the senate to come up with an adjusted package that meets some of the concerns of those who have been blocking action on the jobs plan i m willing to compromise so long as we keep the focus on jobs keep the focus on growth and keep the focus on meeting unmet national needs our opponents have been asking for a smaller package today i ask them to join me in determining exactly what kind and what size package congress can approve that actually meets the needs of the american people but even as we make those reductions and the package will be smaller i believe we must address problems that are on the minds of millions of americans and one in particular and that is the need to toughen law enforcement in our society to deal with the dramatic rise in violent crime so i will ask even in this reduced package for an additional million in federal funding to help local communities to rehire police officers who have been laid off because of the fiscal problems caused by the national recession together with a matching effort by local governments this could put as many as police officers back on the job and back on the beat in communities all across our nation at a time when too many of our people live in fear of violent crime when too many businesses have closed and too many people have lost their jobs because people are afraid to leave their homes rehiring thousands of officers is one of the best investments america can make and i ask both houses of congress to make that investment in our people s safety and in their piece of mind i believe in the need for strong federal action to keep the economy going toward recovery and to create jobs make no mistake about it i will fight for these priorities as hard as i ever have i will never forget that the people sent me here to fight for their jobs their future and for fundamental change i want to thank the police officers who are here today and tell you that not a single one of them knew before they came here that i had determined to ask for more money in this jobs bill to rehire police officers they came here because they believe in the summer jobs portion of the package and i want them to be free to talk about that they came here not out of any law enforcement concern other than the fact that they wanted the kids in this country to have a chance to have jobs this summer to have safer streets and a brighter and more peaceful future i say what i say today not just because it s good for law enforcement but because it s good for the people who live in these communities i have always supported community policing not only because it helps to prevent crime and to lower the crime rate but because it cements better relationships between people in law enforcement and the people that they re hired to protect it reduces the chances of abusive action by police officers and increases the chances of harmony and safe streets at the same time these are the kinds of things that we are trying to do i promised in my campaign that i d do everything i could to put another police officers on the street over the next four years this makes a good downpayment on that this keeps in mind the core of the jobs package and this will help us to move forward so i ask the people in the senate who have blocked the jobs bill let s work together i can accept a reduced package if you will increase your commitment to safe streets i do not accept the fact that we should reduce our commitment to summer jobs or to building our infrastructure or to doing those other things that will create real and lasting prosperity for our people i have done my part now to end the gridlock i ask you to do yours i want now to give the people who are here with me on the platform a chance to make some remarks and to be heard by the american people beginning with janet reno the distinguished attorney general q mr president can you tell us do you think that the jobs package could be put in further jeopardy by controversy over the suggestion of a vat tax at this point in the congressional dialogue the president not at all i think it should have they wouldn t have any relationship one to the other first of all i made absolutely no decision on that you should know that there s a lot of support in the business community and the labor community people have asked us to consider that because of the enormous burden of the present system on many of our major employers particularly many of those that we depend upon to generate jobs and to carry the strength of this economy but i have made absolutely no decision that would even approach that on that or any other kind of general tax q do you personally believe that the american public is ready to pay for to have another tax to pay for health care i mean apart from what business and labor leaders have said the president i m not going to speculate on that i will say this the real issue is how quickly we can recycle the benefits of all the savings to cover the cost i mean that is everyone knows that if you do what we re proposing to do if you streamline the insurance system if you fix the system so that there s no longer an enormous economic incentive to over utilize or over provide certain services if you provide primary and preventive care in places where it isn t now every single analysis shows absolutely massive savings to the health care system the real question is whether you can transfer those savings to cover those who have no coverage now or those who have virtually no coverage so that you provide people the security i have no idea the polls say that but i don t know all i know is the polls that i see in the press that many of you have commissioned they say overwhelmingly the american people want the security of an affordable health care system but i don t think that has anything to do with this stimulus and it certainly shouldn t have people want a job first and foremost they want that more than anything else q now that you ve announced your willingness to compromise on the stimulus package can you tell us what parts of your package you consider vital and uncompromisable i assume summer jobs is one the president i want the summer jobs i want the highway program and i want the police program i still intend let me say this i still intend to fully and aggressively push the crime bill which did not pass the congress last year this is a supplement to that not a substitute for it in any way but i think we need to do that i think we need the ryan white funds because of the enormous health care burdens to the communities that are inordinately and disproportionately affected by the problems of caring for people with aids and there are several other things that i think should be done we have to do the agriculture department meat inspectors the safety of the public depends on that there are a number of other things that i don t i don t think any of it should be cut but i have given senator mitchell and senator byrd i talked to them and senator dole called me yesterday to discuss this and i told him that i would call him back i called him back last night in new hampshire and we discussed this and i basically asked them to talk today and said that i would not make any statements about any specifics until at least they had a chance to talk to see whether or not they could reach some accord so i don t want to be any more specific than i have been already and let s see if they can talk it out q when you talked to senator dole and senator mitchell did you tell them about your increase also that million that you want that as part of the package the president i did i told senator i left word for senator mitchell last night about it when i talked to senator dole i don t remember for sure i do not believe i mentioned it but i did tell him that i was prepared to reduce the package and i wanted to break the gridlock and i told him that i was working on a reformulation of it so that in the hope that it would become even more focused on jobs and the kinds of issues that i thought the american people wanted us to address and this is certainly consistent with that thank you end p m edt
talk.politics.misc	re high speed rail is bad in article apr hydra acs ttu edu mcgoy unicorn acs ttu edu david mcgaughey writes the question i think then becomes do we the general public need the train i certainly do not nor will i ever need this train in lubbock texas with the inexpensive air travel provided between dallas and houston i don t think people in dallas or houston need it either i totally agree really the only people this is going to benefit are those who live in the cities where the train stops who wants to drive to the train station from x lubbock for example it s probably farther to drive to the train station than it is to the nearest national airport i really can t see spending billion on a system that only three cities will benefit from
talk.politics.misc	clinton president s trip to pittsburg the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april statement by the press secretary the president will travel to pittsburgh on saturday april to talk about his job creation plan and its impact on the state of pennsylvania where it would create as many as full time jobs and up to summer jobs he will make a public address at pittsburgh international airport at am the president will leave washington early saturday morning and return that afternoon a white house press charter will depart andrews air force base at filing facilities will be available in pittsburgh
talk.politics.misc	re high speed rail is bad in article apr iqsc com rex iqsc com rex black writes rail in texas being from california i have come to the conclusion that one has two choices for preventing economic strangulation through traffic high speed rail or growth limits rex growth limits how will hsr help with the traffic congestion from what i understand the rail will not stop in places like waco or bryan or lots of intermediate places in between even though i live in austin i don t see myself using the train except on rare occasions probably twice a year and at dollars a ticket i could probably drive for cheaper also even if the price of gas went up
talk.politics.misc	re top ten signs that it s the age of aquarius on pennsylvania avenue top ten signs that it s the age of aquarius on pennsylvania avenue men in uniform are persona non grata in the home of our commander in chief algore s enviro mentalism will make the clean air act look like an industrial policy higher taxes are once again the prescription for all that ails america tax dodging is unpatriotic draft dodging is a symbol of pride beaded curtains hang from the oval office windows socialism may be dead in the ex soviet union but we are told to prepare for the nationalization of our health care resources these people must be inhaling something not quite free love but eating flowers is considered healthy the feminazis have a president in the white house whether the rest of us realize it or not slick may be the first draft dodger to send american troops into combat slick may be unpopular with middle class americans but he s a big hit on campus with the professorial class copyright c edward a ipser jr here s my own top ten response to mr ipser s list it s about time we have a president that might actually stand up to the military our men and women in uniform must learn that the world does not revolve around them and that one of the things they re out there defending is our right to be critical of them even denounce them let me explain something to you environmental policy and industrial policy must go hand in hand our nation and indeed our planet cannot afford to continue ignoring this as was done over the last twelve years our industrial environmental position has been downright shameful we must have active government support of the key industries such as telecommunications microelectronics medical biotech and environmental tech meanwhile weed out old inneficient high polution industries that are better left to other nations this will make us richer help produce new jobs and help the environment to give credit where credit is due i heard a lot of this in a speech by senator john kerry d ma tonite in addition it s time we get really really serious about issues like overpopulation globabl warming and ozone depletion the planet on which we live should be our utmost priority it just so happens that that it takes money to make this country work to provide the services that people need and to help solve the problems that need to be solved granted some things can probably be done more efficiently for less money and should be but some things are going to cost more money and i m sick and tired of hearing everyone whining about taxes all the time you want to live in my country you pay your fair share i can t believe what hypocrites people are when they ask people to give up their lives for their country and then complain about taxes if you re willing to send me off to die for some stupid obsession with fighting an enemy which at best doesn t affect us and at worst really should be our friend then you have no right to tell me you shouldn t pay taxes hey i think the beaded curtains add a lovely s esque touch look canada europe and japan manage to provide health care for their citizens and yes basic health is a human right which people are entitled to if these nations aren t capitalist enough for you then i guess we ve found something better than capitalism there is nothing sacred about the capitalist system and if something be it socialism or anything else works better then i say let capitalism die make love not war contrary to popular belief it is possible to be a male and a feminist at the same time to discriminate against or to deny equal opportunity to a majority of the population is just plain wrong and trying to force them into some sort of tradition role is even worse women certainly have as much to offer this world as men and the day that gender discrimination is finally broken it going to make all the revolutions of the past few centuries seem like reform bills i look forward to it see number hey man acadamia rules amar chaudhary peace land at matzoh ac in dc in none of the opinions here necessary reflect the opinions of yale university or anyone or anything associated with it except for me of course please post reponses or send them to chaudhary amar cs yale edu
talk.politics.misc	re clinton s immunization program in article c jobh zt apollo hp com goykhman apollo hp com red herring writ es in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu jlinder magnus a cs ohio state edu jeffrey s linder writes in article c fjsl is ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr c om mark wilson writes on the news last night clinton was bashing the republicans for stonewalling his so called stimulus package it seems that one small item within this package was going to pay for free immunizations for poor kids immunizations for children in this country are already free if you care to go have it done the problem is not the cost it is the irresponible parents who are to stupid or to lazy to have it done in case you haven t noticed clintonites are pushing a universal health care access program access here means that folks who do not give a damn about immunizing their children will have health care services delivered to their doorsteps excuse me for sticking my nose in but any parent parents who do not allready immunize their children especially if it is already free don t deserve one frigging dime of tax money for health care for themselves or public health care service i know the immunization program and the coming national health care issue are slightly seperate issues but anybody who wouldn t help their kids don t deserve my tax help ryan
talk.politics.misc	re the role of the national news media in inflaming passions in article c iak zh murdoch acc virginia edu gsh w fermi clas virginia edu greg hennessy writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes but what came out in much lower profile reporting was that the victim was a prostitute and the man had not paid her hence the false accusation there was no evidence the woman in question was a prostitute the defense merely alledged that she was even clayton knows the difference err perhaps clayton doesn t know the difference evidence given for her prostitute status besides the admittedly questionable claim of the man on trial included prior employment in a number of massage parlors with women who claimed that she worked as a prostitute walking around a truck stop at am wearing a lace miniskirt a halter top and no underwear of any sort not having a purse or other i d with her not enough to convict her but enough to create reasonable doubt whether a rape actually took place or theft of services are you just ignorant or lying again the judge found that there was some credible evidence that the marines were engaged in self defense no the judge found that the prosecution did not carry out the burder on proof a small clipping from clarinews under fair use guidelines new hanover district court judge jacqueline morris goodson ruled in the benchtrial that the state failed to carry its burden in proving the marines acted to cause injury the accounts on the evening news indicated that they claimed self defense and the judge agreed that they were so operating greg hennessy university of virginia clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re california insurance commissioner endorses federal legislation to protect consumers from scam insurance companies in article apr cbnewsi cb att com gadfly cbnewsi cb att com gadfly writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes and now those other options don t exist we probably agree on this more than you think welfare was invented to solve a problem of the s but the poverty is now so much worse and our economic infra structure has been so eroded that it just can t keep up any more you mean since your philosophy took over the economy has almost collapsed excuse me my philosophy you don t have any idea what my philosophy is the american economy has had its ups and downs through a number of prevailing economic philosophies but then economics is hardly a science in my lifetime your philosophy socialism masquerading as a liberal welfare state has been in ascendancy no i mean exactly what i wrote the welfare system of the new deal is wholly inadequate to cope with the current state of affairs absolutely so the response of socialists is take us even further into socialism whether or not the fathers work is not germane to single mothers very true but the promotion of casual sexuality is something that plays a part in the single mother problem i ll buy that and there s lots of reasons for it extremely far down on the list being the flash in the pan media attention a bunch of middle class dropouts got for their philosophy and experimentation flash in the pan no your subculture has utterly dominated the tv and movie industries for two decades now my subculture my we re getting personal the only subculture i see dominating the tv and movie industries is money if you ll buy it they ll sell it and as recent movements to boycott tv advertisers have shown they re very sensitive about what sells whatever happened to personal responsibility anyway or am i personally responsible for the decline in that too to the extent that people have been encouraged to not be responsible for themselves yes come on you and i both know that the major problem of this society today isn t a lack of employment it s a lack of people willing to work huh tell that to the single mother i know who was laid off from her hour job at a hospital and now works full time minimum wage jobs to barely be able to support herself and her kid barely hey she s too proud to go on public assistance but the only jobs she can find are menial and with no benefits and no career path either they find excuses to lay people off and hire new ones rather than give raises and perks and why not it s a lot cheaper oddly enough all the unskilled or semiskilled people i know manage to find employment almost immediately maybe she needs to move to a cheaper part of the country where jobs are plentiful and the cost of living is lower the west side of chicago is about as cheap as it gets squalor city tell me about all these places where it s cheap to live and jobs are abundant i ll pass them on sonoma county you live in a strange and wondrous place sir inexpensive housing not exactly cheap but not los angeles either lots of employment and utterly surrounded by socialists well i suppose that s the sort of environment that would attract socialists or at least not dissuade them no it s that areas with a lot of wealthy breed socialists all the spoiled rich kids feeling guilty about their wealth but not guilty enough to give it away they just look for politicians to take my more limited wealth away i see a lot of people willing nay eager to work what i don t see is a system that makes it at all feasible to do so it s not just welfare which nobody enjoys but there just aren t the jobs any more when the us was expanding industrial capacity there was always a mill to go work in skills to learn a future now there s only mcdonalds odd not the experience of anyone i know just the opposite in california yup mr cramer i was there hippiedom was a very low budget operation our drugs were cheap the money i was referring to was aid to families with druggie cohabitators afdc well i doubt that much of this goes to drugs there isn t much left after buying food and there is very little in the first place sure you read about such cases now and then but that s what makes them news show me your statistics about afdc abuse i can tell you that relatives i have known the drugs came first the food was secondary ken perlow clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re lincoln slavery re top ten tricks you can play on the american voter in article cb apr tamarack timbuk cb tamarack timbuk chris brewster writes craig depken writes the fact that the south had a number of slave owners is true but relatively small numbers around had more than a few hundred slaves i have to get references that i do not have here for exact numbers if it has any bearing on this discussion i saw a figure for the total number of slave owners as does anyone have a figure for how many slaves there were how many farmers without slaves chris brewster e mail address cb cray com in region total population free blacks slaves u s confederacy union slave states all union states union free states clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re the evidence in article bu edu kane buast bu edu hot young star writes bk so tell me what s immoral about homosexuality cc the promiscuity and fetishism that characterizes it hmmm i ve told you more than once that i ve been monogamous for almost years now and that i really don t get into fetishes then you are nearly the only homosexual who is i don t believe you you ve changed your story before yet you maintain my homosexual activity is still immoral care to elaborate for that matter explain why fetishes are immoral kane buast astro bu edu hot young star astronomy dept boston university the fact that your fetish is more important than who you are making love to actually in your case having sex with clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	new study out on gay percentage from the santa rosa cal press democrat april p b male sex survey gay activity low a new natonal study on male sexual behavior the most thorough examination of american men s sexual practices published since the kinsey report more than four decades ago shows about percent of the men surveyed had engaged in homosexual sex and percent considered themselves exclusively homosexual the figures on homosexuality in the study released wednesday by the alan guttmacher institute are significantly lower than the percent figure that has been part of the conventional wisdom since it was published in the kinsey report the article also contains numbers on the number of sexual partners the median number of sexual partners for all men was compared to the table i have already posted from masters johnson and kolodny showing male homosexual partners it is apparent that homosexual men are dramatically more promiscuous than the general male population it s a shame that we don t have a breakdown for straight men vs gay bi men that would show even more dramatically how much more promiscuous gay bi men are clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re why not concentrate on child molesters in article apr lclark edu snodgras lclark edu bil snodgrass writes in article c g kw murdoch acc virginia edu gsh w fermi clas virginia edu greg hennessy writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes for a while homosexuals paid higher insurance rates than straights and with very good reason until the government made it illegal to do so well if we go by this philosophy how many children do you think we help pay for with our insurance premiums children who obviously cannot be afforded since the insurance companies have to pay for all of the prenatal and birthing what about the children born with horrible flaws who cost the system an arm and a leg to be kept alive we all pay because we are all part of this society and we should take care of one another oddly enough dependent coverage costs a bit more than for one self alone but if you really believe your claims you could make a lot of money starting the homosexuals health insurance co and refuse to insure breeders but i shudder to think what your premiums will be like bil snodgrass iii clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re the tories could win the lottery clinton gst in article c jy gk dscomsa desy de hallam zeus desy de writes in article apr news columbia edu gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes cmk world std com charles m kozierok writes gld cunixb cc columbia edu gary l dare writes secondly any canadian who has worked and participates in the insurance it s a negative option you have to explicitly decline it knows that the premium is deducted separately yes and some americans actually have a problem with having more of their money taken from them to pay for others health care but note again the canadian and german health insurance is voluntary not true i am required to have insurance by law the method of collection effectively makes it a tax the selfish bastards that they are unfortunately that number has diminished recently but once president pinocchio gets through with us i hope for a reversal of trend well here we have the right hoping for more selfish bastards pity they don t look at what years of the regan bush selfish bastard ecconomy has done to the country elect a selfish bastard government and they will run the country for themselve s thats why they are selfish bastards bush and regan gave tax breaks for the ultra rich and paid for them by borrowing against the incomes of the middle class this country is hardly ruined in fact it is booming compared to after the election this whole usa has gone to hell and reagan bush caused it is not only lame pathetic and old it s wrong under reagan bush the economy grew by trillion dollars this is more than the entire economy of germany a kind gentle country in many peoples books what a joke ryan
talk.politics.misc	clinton press release on usia appointments the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april american university president joseph duffey named to head usia mica to chair board for international broadcasting washington d c president clinton today announced his intention to nominate american university president and former state department assistant secretary joseph duffey to be director of the united states information agency the president also designated daniel mica chairman of the board for international broadcasting joe duffey s expertise in the fields of education communications and foreign affairs is vast and will serve him well as he takes the helm at usia and works to promote the ideals of democracy and freedom abroad the president said president of american university in washington d c since duffey previously served nine years as chancellor and president of the university of massachusetts at amherst in he served as assistant secretary of state education and cultural affairs in the state department duffey served as chairman of the national endowment for the humanities under both presidents carter and reagan in and duffey served as a united states delegate to the general conference of the united nations educational scientific and cultural organization in duffey served as joint head of the u s delegation observing national elections in ethiopia usia which celebrates its th anniversary this year is an independent foreign affairs agency within the executive branch that explains and supports u s foreign policy and national security interests abroad through a wide range of information programs among the agency s programs are the fulbright academic program voice of america the worldnet satellite television system and a network of overseas libraries and cultural centers the agency has more than posts in more than countries more press release pg mica becomes chairman of the board for international broadcasting after serving as a member of the board since dan mica has done an excellent job on the board of international broadcasting and i expect he will continue as chairman to promote the cause of democracy abroad the president said biographical sketches of the appointees follow joseph duffey has served as president of american university since prior to his tenure at american duffey served as chancellor and president of the university of massachusetts at amherst and as a guest scholar at the brookings institution he served as chairman of the national endowment for the humanities from and as assistant secretary of state education and cultural affairs with the department of state in duffey holds honorary degrees from american colleges and universities in he was named commander of the order of the crown by the king of belgium and he has been a member of the council of foreign relations since duffey received a ba from marshall university in a bd from the andover newton theological school in a stm from yale university in and a ph d from the harvard seminary foundation in duffey is a member of the national business higher education forum and a founder and co chairman of the western massachusetts economic development conference duffey is married to anne wexler and has four sons daniel mica is a former u s representative from the th district of florida and has served on the board of international broadcasting since during his tenure in congress from he served on the house committee on foreign relations and was appointed by president reagan as the congressional representative to the united nations
talk.politics.misc	pro abortion feminist leader endorses trashing of free speech rights arrested for defying judge s order at abortion protest rally the miami herald april melbourne florida circuit judge robert mcgregor s order prohibits anti abortion pickets within feet of the property line of aware woman center for choice even across the street they may not display pictures of dead fetuses or sing or chant loud enough to be heard by patients inside the clinic the protesters say the ruling all but wiped out the first amendment to the constitution this is our sidewalk said joe carroll a landscaper who marched with his children mary grace and john i am not a rescuer i am not a trespasser it s just that this is my sidewalk i am not really protesting abortion we are protesting denial of our rights of assembly religion speech this judge is trashing the constitution the children s grandmother led them away sobbing as carroll and his father were arrested outside the clinic eleanor smeal president of the washington d c based feminist majority foundation called for the florida legislature and congress to pass laws as tough as the judge s order which covers only brevard and seminole counties this cannot go on she said this is not freedom of speech this is total psychological warfare with violence it is ridiculous to have to ask clinics to go court by court to get protection
talk.politics.misc	the defamation league the following was posted and no doubt retyped by yigal ahrens and considering the importance of the issue and the almost total blackout except in california i am reposting to other appropriates groups from la times friday april p a evidence of adl spy operation seized by police by richard c paddock times staff writer san francisco police on thursday served search warrants on the anti defamation league here and in los angeles seizing evidence of a nationwide intelligence network accused of keeping files on more than political groups newspapers and labor unions and as many as people describing the spy operation in great detail san francisco authorities simultaneously released voluminous documents telling how operatives of the anti defamation league searched through trash and infiltrated organizations to gather intelligence on arab american right wing and what they called pinko organizations representatives of the anti defamation league a well known organization in the u s jewish community dedicated to fighting anti semitism declined detailed comment thursday but denied breaking any laws police allege that the organization maintains undercover operatives to gather political intelligence in at least seven cities including los angeles and san francisco groups that were the focus of the spy operation span the political spectrum including such groups as the ku klux klan the white aryan resistance operation rescue greenpeace the national assn for the advancement of colored people the united farm workers and the jewish defense league also on the list were mills college the board of directors of san francisco public television station kqed and the san francisco bay guardian newspaper people who were subjects of the spy operation included former republican rep pete mccloskey jailed political extremist lyndon h larouche and los angeles times foreign correspondent scott kraft who is based in south africa authorities said much of the material collected by the groups was confidential information obtained illegally from law enforcement agencies they also alleged that data on some individuals and organizations was sold separately to the south african government in addition to allegations of obtaining confidential information from police the anti defamation league could face a total of felony counts for not properly reporting the employment of its chief west coast spy roy bullock according to the affidavit filed to justify the search warrant the anti defamation league disguised payments to bullock for more than years by funneling a week to beverly hills attorney bruce i hochman who then paid bullock according to the documents released in san francisco hochman a former president of the jewish federation council of greater los angeles and one of the state s leading tax attorneys will be out of the city until late next week and could not be reached for comment his office said until hochman a former u s prosecutor also was a member of a panel appointed by then sen pete wilson to secretly make initial recommendations on new federal judges in california hochman is a former regional president of the anti defamation league the league which initially cooperated with police has denied repeatedly that its intelligence gathering operation broke any laws league officials will not confirm or deny whether bullock was an employee and have said they simply traded information with police departments about people who might be involved in hate crimes but in an affidavit filed to obtain warrants for thursday s searches san francisco police alleged that adl employees were apparently less than truthful in providing information during an earlier search conducted without a warrant david lehrer executive director of the los angeles adl office said the organization has not violated the law there is nothing nefarious about how we operate or what we have done he said our record speaks for itself the police affidavit contends that lehrer had sole control of a secret fund used to pay for fact finding operations lehrer according to the documents signed checks from the account under the name l patterson an adl official said the account was used to pay for subscriptions to a wide variety of extremist publications that might balk at sending them directly to the anti defamation league bullock who has been collecting intelligence for the adl for nearly years defended his efforts during a lengthy interview with san francisco police he said that he gathered names from many sources and entered them into his computer under headings such as skins and pinkos but that did not necessarily mean that they were under surveillance i might never see or call up on of them again bullock said and it doesn t mean anything that they re in the files it s not a threat to anyone s civil rights that a name appears in my files under say pinko in recent years bullock worked closely with san francisco police officer tom gerard who fled to the phillippines last fall after he was questioned by the fbi in the case a former cia employee gerard supplied bullock with criminal records and department of motor vehicles information such as home addresses vehicle registration physical characteristics and drivers license photographs using files gathered for the anti defamation league gerard and bullock also provided information to the south african government receiving over four years the documents show the file on times staff writer kraft which was apparently sold to the south african government provides some insight into the hit and miss nature of the spy operation the file notes that kraft s articles appear frequently in the times and are well researched and written but little else about the file is accurate the brief entry confuses the times kraft with another scott kraft and provides the south african government with the wrong kraft s physical description photograph and other personal information nevertheless the documents provide illuminating details of how bullock for decades infiltrated all manner of organizations from skinheads to left wing radicals searching regularly through the trash of target groups using anti defamation league funds he also ran his own paid informants under code names such as scott and scumbag he worked closely with police officers up and down the coast exchanged information with the fbi and worked with federal agencies including the bureau of alcohol tobacco and firearms it was bullock s work as a paid informant for the fbi while spying on behalf of the anti defamation league and the south african government that proved his undoing the fbi learned that he was an agent of a foreign government and began investigating leading to the probe of the anti defamation league s intelligence network the anti defamation league employed undercover operatives to gather information in los angeles san francisco new york washington chicago st louis and atlanta according to the affidavit and investigators joining san francisco police in searching league offices and a los angeles bank were investigators from the office of san francisco dist atty arlo smith and the state franchise tax board the los angeles police department which earlier refused to cooperate with the investigation was informed of the searches in los angeles but not invited to participate investigators suspect that some confidential information in the anti defamation league files may have come from los angeles police officers from los angeles times saturday april p a adl vows to cooperate with spy investigation by richard c paddock times staff writer san francisco the anti defamation league defended its record as a civil rights group friday and said it will cooperate with authorities who are investigating whether the organization collected confidential police information on citizens and groups but san francisco dist atty arlo smith said that anti defamation league employees involved in intelligence gathering could face many felony counts of receiving confidential files eavesdropping tax violations and conspiracy police have accused the anti defamation league of not being truthful about its spying operations which collected information on more than individuals and political groups across the political spectrum hundreds of pages of documents released by prosecutors thursday show that the adl maintained a nationwide intelligence network and kept files on political figures even so smith suggested that if the anti defamation league shut down its spy operation prosecutors would take that into account when deciding what charges to file in a statement released in washington national director abraham h foxman described the adl as a jewish defense agency which has fought to protect all minorities from bigotry and discrimination for years foxman said the organization is regarded as a credible source on extremist groups and has a tradition of routinely providing information to police journalists academics government officials and the public it has never been the policy of the adl to obtain information illegally he said like other journalists in order to protect the confidentiality and physical safety of its sources adl will not comment on the nature or identity of any source of information foxman said the anti defamation league refused to acknowledge that one of its longtime employees roy bullock was anything more than a private individual who is alleged to be an adl informant among the documents released by prosecutors were detailed statements showing how the adl funneled weekly payments to bullock through beverly hills attorney bruce i hochman roy would penetrate organizations and needed this arrangement to be distanced from adl hochman told a san francisco police investigator hochman could not be reached friday at his home or office for comment despite the anti defamation league s assertion that it will cooperate with authorities san francisco police said the group did not turn over all pertinent documents during a voluntary search of the group s offices in los angeles and san francisco last fall a second round of searches thursday this time with search warrants produced a vast quantity of records primarily dealing with financial transactions smith said further searches may be necessary and it will be at least a month before any charges are filed he said the investigation of course will go wherever the facts lead us the district attorney said yigal arens usc isi tv made me do it arens isi edu js
talk.politics.misc	re af ats red army fraction raf communique as quoted from c assn by c cs ualberta ca merth eric william in article c vbm gs ncoast org cmort ncoast org christopher morton writes as quoted from c vctb j h dscomsa desy de by hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker isn t it wonderfull the way people can make the sadistic and indescriminate murder of the bader meinhof gang sound like altruism gee phil i d remember where you are and that these people are monitoring the net i d also remember that they have about as much sense of humor as ed damn it isn t big brother after all and all this time i thought that all those revolutionaries while blowing things up and killing the odd innocent person in the process really did love all us proles cause everybody knows that dialectical materialism will save you even if it has to get you killed first what a fool i ve been what you fail to see is that in order to make a nightmarish stew of psychosis and repression you have to break a few eggs you the evil productive elements in society are those eggs damn the spirit full speed ahead you re like a bunch of over educated new york jewish aclu lawyers fighting to eliminate school prayer from the public schools in arkansas holly silva
talk.politics.misc	clinton press briefing by george stephanopoulos the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april press briefing by george stephanopoulos the briefing room p m edt mr stephanopoulos good afternoon q could we do this on the lawn mr stephanopoulos that would be nice let s go out to the cherry blossoms we ll do like the president q is the stimulus package dead mr stephanopoulos absolutely not q can you tell us more about the dole talks you said it was a good visit but no compromise mr stephanopoulos yes the president had a good talk with senator dole last night i think that as we said before there were no specific compromises on either side although it was a very good discussion about the jobs package and about other issues as well as you know the president first called senator dole i believe tuesday night to talk about the russian aid package they did not speak senator dole called him back wednesday morning when the president was out instead he spoke with tony lake and at the close of that conversation indicated that he wanted to speak to the president about the jobs and stimulus package they finally talked about that yesterday afternoon at the close of that discussion they said that they would have another talk last night which they did when the senator was up in new hampshire and although there were no specific compromises made on either side they did say that they would continue to have some discussions and that s where we are q well who is giving in where is it standing are both making concessions mr stephanopoulos i don t know that it s at that phase no compromise has been made as the president has said consistently he intends to come forward with an adjusted package he believes in the package but he believes that if it s going to take adjustments to get the minority to release it he s willing to make those adjustments q on the subject of a vat mr stephanopoulos oh boy q can we stay on this for one more minute mr stephanopoulos sure q we have a problem with the five minutes q i know no decisions have been made but what would lead the health group to believe that a vat might be necessary mr stephanopoulos sorry andrea i m not going to go down that road no decisions have been made as the president said this morning a number of groups a number of members of congress a number of other organizations have recommended that this be looked at the working group is looking at it but no decisions have been made q to follow have they done that directly through him have labor and business groups been in touch with the president about it mr stephanopoulos not to my knowledge although there s a lot of people who have public decisions in support of the vat but the president has not made a decision q at the meetings that he s had with his own task force advisers have they discussed the funding issue and what the possible options would be mr stephanopoulos i don t think that that has been presented for a decision no q not for a decision but has it been discussed as an option mr stephanopoulos again there are a lot of levels of briefing i do not believe that the vat has been presented to the president as okay this is something for you to decide on q you re not saying he didn t know it was being considered though are you mr stephanopoulos no he said it s being considered q he knew that q but has he discussed that with his advisers that s what i m asking mr stephanopoulos the president has said it s being considered i do not know what level of discussion there has been over the vat it is something the working groups are looking at i don t even know that it s q but he didn t say he was considering did he at this stage mr stephanopoulos no he is not i think we re getting into something of a metaphysical debate right here what is considered q well he is the one who said i haven t reviewed it mr stephanopoulos that is true that is what i just repeated q george is there any concern here that as a result of the definite statement he made in february and the promise that if it were to be considered he d let us know and having it trickle out the way it did that there may now be the development of a credibility gap on this issue and others mr stephanopoulos i don t think so i mean it is now public knowledge that this is being considered q is he or you at all embarrassed about the absolute statements that were made from this platform to the effect that it was off the table and was not being considered and then to have it come out not from you people but mr stephanopoulos well wait a second it came out from the administration what are you talking about q what i m saying is though that the president said he would let us know mr stephanopoulos right q you people then said you said i believe that it s not going to be on the program mr stephanopoulos on march th q on march th mr stephanopoulos circumstances change q well i understand but we have to find that out by rooting around in the fine print of an interview mr stephanopoulos rooting around i know you did do a very good job there to read the usa today article but this is laughter the deputy director of the omb and the secretary of health and human services i mean that is common anytime you guys write a story that has an unattributed quote from somebody in the clinton administration the headline is i ll look at it right here and ap story clinton wants more money for spying q what about his remark that if it were being considered he d tell us about it mr stephanopoulos and the administration s concerned and he d let you know q and did he mr stephanopoulos yes absolutely what did he say this morning q it had to be dragged out of you here yesterday mr stephanopoulos it didn t have to be dragged out of me we had the deputy director of the omb we had the secretary of health of human services say it was being considered that is his administration that is his administration policy q were these authorized trial balloons or were they orchestrated leaks i mean what was the mr stephanopoulos they were asked questions they answered the questions q you re saying here that it didn t have to be dragged out that you more or less made it clear yesterday you were considering it mr stephanopoulos absolutely i was very clear painfully clear q was there a particular political strategy in making it clear the administration is considering a new tax increase on tax day mr stephanopoulos no it was just this issue is being considered they were asked if it was being considered they answered that it was being considered q george the new york times q why do it yesterday mr stephanopoulos they were asked q the new york times reports today that secretary reich and the chief economist at the labor department used apples and oranges numbers in order to portray last month s unemployment figures in a way that was supportive of the president s job stimulus bill but which turned out to be totally false mr stephanopoulos i don t know if it was totally false but i think laughter the chief economist at the labor department did grant that it was an inappropriate mixing and they say that q the question is is the president concerned about behavior that amounts to corrupting government data and what s he doing about it if so mr stephanopoulos the chief economist has said that a mistake was made it won t happen again and that s the end of the matter q isn t that the same information that goes to the president q if i could go back to the stimulus package mr stephanopoulos there s two separate pieces of information i think that s where the confusion was q when did you all first learn about this mistake that was made mr stephanopoulos i read the article this morning q and as far as you know is the president aware of it mr stephanopoulos i think so q and was he aware of it before he read about it in the new york times mr stephanopoulos i don t know not to my knowledge q did you ever hear about it before this morning anything mr stephanopoulos i didn t q wasn t the president given an erroneous spin on this for his own purpose for his speeches for his arguments mr stephanopoulos well again i m not sure both statements are true what the labor department has granted is that mixing them in one sentence essentially was misleading they said it was a mistake they said they wouldn t do it again q did they drop it is this something that you choose to spin or make an issue of mr stephanopoulos whenever fewer people are out of work we re gratified but that doesn t take away from the need to get this jobs package going q if i could go back to the stimulus package for a minute you said that the president plans to come forward with an amendment is the timetable still what it was that the amendment would be laid down on monday and voted on on tuesday or did he in the conversation with dole talk about the possibility of putting that off for a few more days to give more time for the discussion mr stephanopoulos i think at this point there s no changes in the schedule at all i don t know that they discussed the timing like that q do you believe that you re closer or getting closer this week than you were last week mr stephanopoulos again i believe that we re going to pass a jobs package the president is prepared to make adjustments in order to get that to happen i don t know where the votes are on cloture at this particular time i don t know what s going to happen until we have a vote but the president believes deeply in this jobs package and wants to get it done q has there been any indication that this situation has changed mr stephanopoulos we re going to continue to work on it we ll know when the votes are taken q george last week you said that there are or various people in the administration were saying that you couldn t go through dole you were going to have to try and go around him because he was immovable on this subject of a compromise or at least the compromise he wanted was not anything like the one that you could accept this week you re talking to him is that because you ve realized that the peeling off effort wasn t going to work mr stephanopoulos that s because senator dole wanted to talk to the president about the stimulus package q he initiated the conversation mr stephanopoulos yes q secretary reich this morning said that in fact the president is not willing to compromise on this bill at all you say he s making mr stephanopoulos i don t know that that s exactly what he said i think he said he didn t have any indication that there was any compromises yet or that there would be a compromise and the president doesn t want to compromise and the president doesn t want to compromise but if he has to make adjustments to get it through he will q officials here yesterday said that panetta was working on a series of adjustments that might be made public before the actual vote mr stephanopoulos it s possible q today mr stephanopoulos i m not sure exactly when that will happen but i think that it s very possible that we ll come forward with some sort of a different package or senate democrats will come forward with some sort of a different package in order to get it passed q as we understood his conversations with dole the first one was some discussion of this and i ll get back to you tonight with some details or some adjustments or whatever the phrase is did he offer him some details or some adjustments mr stephanopoulos i think it s a question of how detailed i mean i think they had a general discussion about the package last night subsequent to their conversation yesterday afternoon i believe that there will be follow up discussions today in the senate not necessarily between the president and senator dole and let me just reiterate neither side has made specific compromises at this date when we have something we ll let you know and i m not suggesting that senator dole has accepted anything that we ve talked about or that we ve offered anything in a hard way q what are the follow up discussions if not the president and dole mr stephanopoulos i think senator mitchell is going to talk to senator dole q is that a threat laughter q did the president say to senator dole all right how about this number as an overall size or did dole say to the president i can go as high as this did they talk numbers mr stephanopoulos i don t think it was a negotiation in that respect it was more of a discussion about their positions q did they discuss actual numbers mr stephanopoulos i m just not sure i know they talked about the basic outlines of the packages i think they talked about the programs they cared about i don t know if they got to the level of this many x billion dollars q does dole have to sign off before there is a package mr stephanopoulos no of course not q did the white house have anything to do with the protesters who showed up in new hampshire today where senator dole was speaking was that in any way organized by mr stephanopoulos not to my knowledge no q and has the president been in touch with senators kohl or feingold mr stephanopoulos i don t think he s talked to them no q george is the president considering the more palatable fact of having a national sales tax instead of having the haves having to continuously pay for the have nots and is he going to scrap his proposed tax on the privileged few with the haves having to pay for the have nots mr stephanopoulos the president believes deeply that the tax rates on upper income americans as he presented in his budget should go up and i think for the second half of your question i ll refer you to my briefing from yesterday q george on the subject of accuracy in information you suggested the other day that the stimulus package included money that would solve the water problem in milwaukee apparently that is not true it s actually waste water money mr stephanopoulos it s waste water money for wisconsin and some could go to milwaukee q but it would not affect the drinking water problem because it s waste water money right mr stephanopoulos it would affect the water treatment overall q but the implication from your statement the other day was that it would help fix this disease problem in milwaukee now would you agree that s not the case mr stephanopoulos i m not sure of the specifics i know that it goes to the overall water treatment in wisconsin q a leftover question from this morning which was when did the president find out that the task force was deliberating on a vat mr stephanopoulos i m not sure exactly when i just don t know i assume it came up over the last certainly between the time that we had commented on in the past and two days ago q so sometime since march th mr stephanopoulos i think that s right i don t know the exact date q george the president this morning mentioned that some labor and business groups are for the vat tax apparently the national association of manufacturers talks about perhaps the vat tax being okay if it replaces the btu tax so does the president feel that perhaps this might be in place of some other tax he s proposed or is this totally in addition to the other taxes he s already proposed mr stephanopoulos i think we ve said all we have to say about the vat at this point i mean there s just no this is being considered by the health care working groups and that is all the president hasn t made any further decisions beyond that q but it would be to finance health care it wouldn t be to replace some other tax that finances it wouldn t replace the income tax for instance mr stephanopoulos there have been no discussions on that q in terms of getting a vat tax through congress senator dole s press release today said vat on tax day do you think does it have a chance of getting through congress would it have a chance mr stephanopoulos i have no idea q is that a consideration whether you all put it forward mr stephanopoulos that would become a consideration if the president were to decide to do it it s not in consideration now q you said at the beginning of the briefing that circumstances had changed and that had caused the vat to now be under consideration mr stephanopoulos yes what the president referred to this morning these groups came forward and said this is something that has to be considered q those are the circumstances that have changed that s the only difference between now and when he emphatically ruled it out that groups have asked it to be considered mr stephanopoulos that s what he said q is that true mr stephanopoulos yes q was there in fact some understanding that sin taxes would not produce enough money for the health care benefits mr stephanopoulos i m not going to get into the deliberations q but george mr stephanopoulos no what the consideration is as the president said groups came forward and said this is something you ought to consider the working groups are looking at it q is that the only thing that s changed since his prior statement and your prior statement on the vat mr stephanopoulos yes q can you explain how those groups how that information got to him that groups wanted it was it just reading the newspaper or did groups make presentations mr stephanopoulos i think the groups as you know the health care task force has met with dozens of groups q but this is the president s knowledge that these groups had come forward mr stephanopoulos i think he was referring to what was coming to the working groups obviously there have also been published positions in the newspapers q have certain groups briefed him on the group s presentations to them mr stephanopoulos i don t know if they ve briefed him i mean how detailed the briefings have been i know that the working groups decided to look into this after being pressed by these groups q what kind of arguments did the groups make that were persuasive enough that the president would change the position that he had enunciated previously mr stephanopoulos i don t know it s just they ve had longstanding positions that this would be a good way to finance health care q the president wasn t aware of those longstanding positions mr stephanopoulos he may have been at some level obviously he s been a governor for a long time and he knows the basic arguments for and against a vat tax q what we re trying to figure out here you re telling us that the only change the only thing that affected this change in the president s attitude toward the vat between february and now mr stephanopoulos the president s attitude hasn t necessarily changed i mean he has not made a decision q i know but the president said that it was off the table so did you and you re saying that the only thing that s changed is the positions of these groups except you re also describing them as longstanding positions i don t see the change if these groups haven t had any change in their position that s been made to the president mr stephanopoulos well they ve made the presentations to the health care task force q there s no relationship at all between the fact that sin taxes that he had said suggested in february that he favored will not produce enough revenue to finance mr stephanopoulos i don t think he ever suggested that they would produce all the revenue q well he suggested that he thought that those were appropriate ways to finance health care mr stephanopoulos he did say that i don t know that he said anything to refute that q but in fact has the task force discovered that there wouldn t be enough revenue from those taxes to finance the kind of core benefits mr stephanopoulos again i don t think that the task force ever suggested that there would q george if he advocated a vat tax would that break his promise not to raise taxes on the middle class to pay for his programs mr stephanopoulos i can t comment on a hypothetical situation q but does that promise would that promise not to raise taxes on the middle class to pay for the programs prevent him from seeking a vat tax mr stephanopoulos the president has made no decisions on the vat tax when he does we ll tell you and we ll explain the implications then q which specific groups can you cite business labor or otherwise whose recommendations to the health care task force has prompted this consideration mr stephanopoulos i don t have the specific i just don t have that q george can you tell us to what extend these other alternatives for instance the employer tax or the sin taxes or other financing options are also still on the table and what these options are mr stephanopoulos no as members of the task force and representatives of the working groups have said they are looking at a wide variety of options i think that ira magaziner said that there are different options under consideration but i m not going to comment q what s the scope mr stephanopoulos i m just not going to comment on them no q what s the scope of the need how much are you talking about that has to be produced by one or a combination of the mr stephanopoulos that s what the health care task force is looking at q since there s not going to be any briefing on the miyazawa visit two questions one generally what does the president hope to use that meeting for but more specifically is his task complicated by the japanese anger over the vancouver note and the remark about market access at the press conference mr stephanopoulos the vancouver note q does no mean yes q yes and no mr stephanopoulos well i don t know i saw the prime minister s press conference where he was asked the question about that note and he gave a very gracious and complete answer when he was asked the question the questions of trade are something that certainly will be discussed between the prime minister and the president there is obviously a trade imbalance between japan and the u s that we want to do something about q also in those comments the prime minister made he suggested that the united states should come down heavy on him in terms of trade are you going to oblige mr stephanopoulos i think the president will state our views on trade very clearly and our views on the trade deficit very clearly i don t necessarily want to agree with your characterization of the prime minister s comments q that we need specific export targets specific numerical targets is that what he s going to discuss with miyazawa mr stephanopoulos they re going to have a broad discussion of a wide range of trade issues i don t want to get into those specifics until after the meeting q why q that s the crux of the issue right whether or not does the president believe that without specific numerical targets it is really as he said in his press conference sort of hopeless that this is going to change very much mr stephanopoulos the president believes that we must have pressure on japan to turn the trade imbalance around i do not want to get into the specifics of how that would be done q but does the president believe that their stimulus package announced yesterday will rectify the imbalance mr stephanopoulos i think first the president wants to get a full briefing on the stimulus package from prime minister miyazawa himself and then he ll make the comment on it q how about the russian aid package there seems to be some confusion about how the u s views that secretary christopher saying or bentsen saying the japanese may need to do more the japanese saying that that s not what they heard mr stephanopoulos again we re going to continue to work with all our allies in the g and we re going to continue to press for help for russian reform russian democratic reform and i think that so far we had a very good announcement out of tokyo and we re going to continue to work with our allies for bilateral packages q do you think the japanese need to do more mr stephanopoulos we re going to continue to work with all our allies to do as much as we can q secretary christopher was asked today on the today show this morning what he thought of margaret thatcher s comments on the bosnia policy and he said it s a rather emotional response mr stephanopoulos over an emotional issue q right to an emotional problem does the white house condone that kind of remark mr stephanopoulos i think that secretary christopher s remarks speaks for itself the president believes also that this is a deeply troubling situation that we re trying to find answers for q but that specific rather emotional response specific term mr stephanopoulos no it speaks for itself q in connection with that doesn t it seem that with the numbers of people who are being killed at this very moment is it good american policy to put off some decisions that might be made now to help boris yeltsin win a referendum mr stephanopoulos for example q to take stronger action to take military action air strikes anything that can be done mr stephanopoulos the president believes that what must be done now is to push harder for sanctions he is also as you know the administration has been discussing lifting the arms embargo he believes those are the appropriate ways to increase pressure at this time q what is your response to the critics who would say that the u s is now stymied by trying to help boris yeltsin retain the presidency mr stephanopoulos they re wrong we re pressing hard for the serbs to come to the negotiating table we re pressing hard for increased sanctions and we re talking to our allies about the arms embargo q you were putting great store in vance and owen getting people to agree to that now vance and owen have both said that military force to some extent would be acceptable does that change your thinking mr stephanopoulos clearly we re going to listen to whatever people who have put so much time into a situation have to say but at this point the president is moving forward on sanctions and talking about the arms embargo q a follow up on a dee dee comment this morning she said she would be able to provide some administration officials who could document the effect the sanctions are having in bosnia are you going to be able to do that or do you have anything mr stephanopoulos i don t think that s what she said q that s exactly what she said mr stephanopoulos i don t think that s true but what she said we would look into the situation of what kind of evidence can be provided in bosnia obviously if there are connections between the bosnian serbs and the serbs in belgrade and we are tightening the screws on the serbs in belgrade that will have an effect over time i do not know day by day minute by minute what kind of help is being given between the two and what the exact effect has been but clearly we are slowing the shipment of goods into belgrade we are having an effect on the serbs there what kind of effect that will eventually have on the bosnian serbs i don t know but one thing i would say is if it were having no effect at all i don t know why they d be fighting it so much q are the first lady s tax returns going to be released mr stephanopoulos i think there s a joint tax return and it will be probably later today q is the president considering signing an executive order banning discrimination against homosexuals in the federal work force as part of the gay rights march here next week mr stephanopoulos i don t think there s any proposal for that at this time not that i know of q it s something that the president promised during the campaign that he would do mr stephanopoulos i have not seen any i don t think it s anything that s on his plate right now q is he meeting with gay rights leaders at any point on this issue mr stephanopoulos i don t know about on this issue i assume that he ll meet with representatives of the gay and lesbian community sometime soon as he meets with representatives of lots of different groups and communities q do you know if that s scheduled mr stephanopoulos it s probably going to be tomorrow q probably going to be tomorrow laughter q it s a good thing you asked q who s probably going to be there laughter mr stephanopoulos i don t know q how long mr stephanopoulos i don t know that s all i know q do you know if it s at p m tomorrow laughter mr stephanopoulos i don t know what time it is i don t even know for sure if it s going to be tomorrow q environmental groups have asked him to make a major speech next week of some kind is that going to happen do you know mr stephanopoulos i don t know if they ve asked but i think the president has always planned as he did last year to give a speech on earth day and i expect that he will if it s not exactly on earth day it might be a day before or something like that q is he planning to sign or announce the signing of the biodiversity treaty in connection with earth day mr stephanopoulos again i don t know the specific timing of something like that but it s certainly something under discussion and something we ve been working on q campaign finance reform mr stephanopoulos we re working on it q do you think it will be next week mr stephanopoulos i m just not sure q the biodiversity treaty is something you re working on i missed the question mr stephanopoulos yes something we re working on he asked if it was ready to be signed and i said i didn t know anything about that but it s something we ve certainly been working on q do you know what organizations might be represented in this meeting with the gay and lesbian groups mr stephanopoulos i don t q do you know if he is going to reconsider being out of town on the day of the march mr stephanopoulos he s got to be at the senate meeting in jamestown and i believe he s also going to be giving a speech to the american association of newspaper publishers in boston on sunday as he did last year q would you have told us if she had not pressed you on the question mr stephanopoulos on what q on the gays mr stephanopoulos when we went through the president s schedule for the day certainly q george what day is the publisher s speech is that sunday mr stephanopoulos i think it s a sunday q and saturday he ll be in jamestown mr stephanopoulos yes q so you re just going to be in jamestown for one day mr stephanopoulos no i m not sure i don t know how long the senate thing goes it might go overnight i just don t know q you would have made the gay meeting public right mr stephanopoulos i m certain if we had the meeting i don t know about open to the press but we would have told you about it q i mean because it is as far as i can tell the first time in history a president has met in the oval office with mr stephanopoulos i didn t say it was going to be in the oval office laughter but i didn t i m not say that it s not but i didn t say that it was laughter q at the white house in the bush administration gay officials were invited to a bill signing ceremony and the white house had to repudiate having done that so i just wanted to make sure mr stephanopoulos well the president wouldn t do anything like that q certainly not q what marching orders did the president give to general vessey mr stephanopoulos they had a very good discussion for about half an hour today he wanted the most important thing was he had a full accounting for american pows and mias he will obviously look into the circumstances surrounding this new document the president stressed that he wanted the fullest possible accounting and said that only when we have that can we even consider any changes in our policy towards vietnam he ll be looking at vietnam s response to the questions raised by the document and he ll also look into investigations on discrepancy cases increased efforts on remains implementing trilateral investigations and access to military archives and ambassador toon also briefed the president on the activities of the joint commission and on the document q vietnam says it s a fake what is the dod analysis at this stage mr stephanopoulos it s not completed yet and it s also the first thing that general vessey will bring up with the vietnamese q a number of defense officials have been saying that they think that the or so prisoners referred to are in fact non americans that the vietnamese had captured who they referred to as americans from time to time do people mr stephanopoulos we don t have any final determination we re going to wait for the complete review when we have it we ll make a judgment q i know you don t have any final determination but given all of the intense public interest in this do you think that that s a likely possibility mr stephanopoulos i just don t want to characterize it in any way until the review is complete q george was there a topic scheduled for the speech in boston mr stephanopoulos no q is the president going to have a press conference tomorrow with miyazawa mr stephanopoulos i think so but i m not positive yes i expect yes q was toon in with vessey mr stephanopoulos yes q he was in on the meeting mr stephanopoulos yes q what was the question mr stephanopoulos was ambassador toon in with vessey and the answer is yes q do you have any response to the wall street journal report this morning the president s distressed about some of his press clippings and that perhaps he s distressed with you about that mr stephanopoulos no well i do have a response i think the article was highly misleading to the extent that it implied that the president has had restricted access to the press i would point out that he s answered questions on occasions more than any of his predecessors i would also point out it also q how many questions mr stephanopoulos three hundred fifty eight on occasions q how many were while he was jogging mr stephanopoulos well no that s actually a very good question andrea and i would point out further that the article also implied that these questions were only answered at tightly controlled photo opportunities which is just patently false he s had press conferences in either the east room the oval office or the roosevelt room or the briefing room in addition to questions taken at photo opportunities and that is only the q oval office press conference when was that mr stephanopoulos he s answered questions in the east room he s had five in the east room he s had one in the oval office he s had one in the rose garden he s had one or two in the roosevelt room and this is just to the white house washington press corps in addition to that he s had interviews with local television anchors he s met with the editorial board of the portland oregonian he s had an hour long interview with dan rather he s had interviews with local press from california florida and connecticut q can you address the question of the attitude the article implies that he doesn t q why doesn t he like us laughter q did you really get blamed for that post story q the story is that you are you held responsible for it mr stephanopoulos i don t think i m going to comment about this q are you denying that the president has shown displeasure publicly mr stephanopoulos i am not commenting on the discussions between the president and myself q did the president write that letter to chris webber mr stephanopoulos what q the letter to the university of michigan basketball player mr stephanopoulos oh yes q that is an authentic letter mr stephanopoulos yes q since the president first talked about the vat in february he said at the time that he thought there probably should be exceptions made in basic necessities such as food and clothing does he still hold that position given the impact it could have mr stephanopoulos again i just can t comment on a proposal he hasn t made q george does the president have some agenda for this meeting with the gay leaders tomorrow mr stephanopoulos well i think it will just a general meeting on the wide range of issues that they care about including aids and other issues civil rights q the military issue mr stephanopoulos i m certain it will come up q is he using this event to name the aids mr stephanopoulos i don t think so q george what specifically is the president doing to prepare for tomorrow s meeting with the prime minister miyazawa mr stephanopoulos he s had briefing memos he s had general discussions with members of the treasury department the trade representative and others q report yet mr stephanopoulos i don t know if he has the report referred to in the times but ambassador kantor was here to brief him today q he was mr stephanopoulos yes q does he intend to use any of these instances that mr stephanopoulos again i don t know that the report s been presented but obviously the president will press hard in any case where he thinks that a violation has occurred q in terms of the wall street journal the thrust was that there s a real schism here a hostility do you think he feels that way mr stephanopoulos not at all as i said on the record in the article i think the president likes reporters again i think that the thrust of the article was still misleading the thrust of the article was that in some way some attitude which the president may or may not have is affecting access when in fact he has the most open accessible administration than have any in recent history q can we come up to your office laughter mr stephanopoulos if you re invited the press thank you end p m edt
talk.politics.misc	drug use up at younger age the article that follows was taken from the wednesday april issue of usa today drug use up at younger age by mike snider p a drug use is on the rise among kids as young as eighth graders usually and they re using more lsd and inhalants like glue and air fresheners says a new survey the annual national high school senior survey on drug abuse finds statistically significant increases in eighth graders use of many drugs including marijuana cocaine crack lsd and inhalants we may be in danger of losing some hard won ground in reducing drug use as a new more naive generation of youngsters enters adolescence says lloyd johnston university of michigan chief researcher on the study sponsored by the department of health and human services but drug use among high school seniors is continuing a decade long decline the study of students shows the percentage who tried the following in the days before they were polled th graders alcohol cigarettes marijuana cocaine th graders alcohol cigarettes marijuana cocaine th graders alcohol cigarettes marijuana cocaine among th graders use of marijuana cocaine and inhalants declined over the year before not so with lsd of eighth graders have tried lsd in the last year up over use of lsd among seniors is at its highest point since tried it in the last year reducing drug use among students requires a different kind of strategy that health secretary donna shalala says will be part of an overall illness prevention plan the survey shows drugs are easier to get and fewer eighth graders disapprove of them it s scary shalala says dealers are focusing on younger more vulnerable kids scott kennedy brewer and patriot before david koresh is a cheap thug who interprets the bible through the barrel of a gun atf spokesman after the atf is a cheap thug who interprets the constitution through the barrel of a gun me
talk.politics.misc	we re winning the war on drugs not the dea and other organizations would have the american people believe that we are winning the war on drugs i m going to dispel the propaganda that the dea is putting out by showing you the drug war s real status to help prove my assertions i ve also posted two articles from usa today that clearly demonstrate that drug use among certain age groups is on the rise if wod is working as we re led to believe then drug abuse should have gone down substantially by now the reality is is that it has not gone down very much if anything substance abuse is on the rise i m also going to supply a possible solution to this problem the following text is an excerpt from an article about rock music and pot entitled hello again mary jane which appears in the current issue of time magazine april p law enforcement officials say pot advocates are just blowing smoke when they talk about the comeback of the weed perhaps because of the change of administrations the marijuana lobby is out in full force says robert bonner head of the drug enforcement administration the fact is they re losing the battle in more than of youths ages to said they smoked marijuana in that figure was and bonner says it is still falling bonner also offers a reminder that studies confirm such marijuana health risks as destruction of nerve cells in the brain and lung damage the chart that follows was taken from the wednesday april issue of usa today drug use up among u s eigth graders by mike snider p d adolescents choices drugs used by eighth graders in the last month estimated per students pct chg alcohol cigarettes marijuana amphetamines lsd cocaine crack source university of michigan institute for social research report we are not winning the war on drugs i think you can see that one of the tactics that the dea employs to give people the impression that the war on drugs is being won is to selectively quote statistics only statistics that support their contention that drug use has gone down the excerpt from time magazine that i included in this post is an excellent example of how organizations like the dea attempt to deceive the public usage of one particular drug may have gone down but at the same time usage of other drugs may have gone up a k a substitution also drug usage among one particular age group may have gone down but drug usage among another age group may have gone up therefore if one takes a look at the big picture taking into consideration all the statistics then it s obvious that the so called war on drugs is being lost perhaps the drug war is being won as far as illegal drugs go but if one factors in alcohol abuse smoking and use of inhalants then the magnitude of the drug problem in this country can then placed in its true perspective for those of you who don t consider alcohol to be a drug then try drinking a fifth of whiskey sometime and then come back and tell me that it s not a drug agencies like the dea only go after illegal drugs this is one of the reasons why the drug war is a fruitless attempt at preventing substance abuse people will merely switch to another drug if the one they were using becomes scarce or unpopular the solution to the drug abuse problem in this country may be to legalize some not all drugs whose toxicity has been shown to be within reasonable limits you won t drop dead after using it a few times and then couple this with a massive drug education program the reason why i think legalization is part of the solution is because people seem to be able to easily obtain drugs despite the government s efforts to the contrary the money spent on drug interdiction could be spent more effectively elsewhere e g drug education additionally legalization would reduce crime because the profit motive would be taken out of drug trafficking which often goes along with other kinds of crime not to mention the fact that addicts would have less reason to prey on innocent people for their money and posessions in order to support their expensive habit legalization would cause the street price of drugs to fall substantially so drugs would be much more affordable to addicts imho the way to reduce substance abuse is to do to drugs what has been done to smokers make drug use socially unacceptable rather than try to employ heavy handed law enforcement and punish people by incarcerating them as you already know people in the u s smoke a lot less than they used to this reduction in the number of smokers has been brought about by public awareness campaigns laws restricting where people can light up warning labels on cigarette packages taxation on tobacco in order to reduce consumption and so on i propose that similar methods be used to reduce substance abuse after legalization has been carried out they are as follows drugs being sold must come with clear concise information which states the possible health hazzards involved with using this product and recommendations on how the drug should be used things like dosage levels and how long the drug should be used ought to accompany the packaging the drug is contained in all drugs should be taxed at a rate that generates a lot of revenue but not so high as to encourage people to acquire drugs through illegal channels part of the revenue collected from drug taxes should be used to fund drug education and law enforcement make it a felony to sell drugs to minors people under the age of anyone can sell drugs but they must not dodge paying the taxes on drugs or sell drugs with the warning information absent failure to pay the appropiate taxes on drugs or omitting warning information should also be a felony establish a government agency whose job is to insure that the purity and safety of all drugs is as high as possible this agency would try to prevent people from getting a hold of bad drugs something that is a fairly serious problem now i m sure that many of the things i ve discussed in this article have been hashed out before in this newsgroup nevertheless i thought it was a good idea to give my two cents actually a buck and a half all at once so you could get a good idea of where i currently stand on wod go ahead and tear into my post i m sure there is something in it that you may wish to take a different view on or flame btw i posted the articles from usa today to not only help prove my assertions but also to provide information on lsd usage among youths something which i noticed some posters to this group were interested in scott kennedy brewer and patriot before david koresh is a cheap thug who interprets the bible through the barrel of a gun atf spokesman after the atf is a cheap thug who interprets the constitution through the barrel of a gun me
talk.politics.misc	drug use up among u s eighth graders the article that follows was taken from the wednesday april issue of usa today drug use up among u s eighth graders by mike snider p d a new national survey says drugs are easier to get more teens are using them and fewer deem drug use as risky for the last two years government officials have trumpeted results from the national high school survey as signs that the drug war is being won but this year officials are retreating drug use by eighth graders has risen according to the survey of students nationwide possible reason for the increase more experimentation why if drug use dropped during the s eventually some students will have fewer drug using contemporaries who act as examples of substance abuse s drawbacks says social psychologist lloyd johnston one of the survey authors each new wave of youths must be given the knowledge skills and motivation to resist using these drugs johnston says this type of resurgence is possible says eileen shiff author of experts advise parents delta but that s not the issue she says the prevalence of alcohol and drugs among teens today could result in more alcoholic adults decades from now aggravating the problem baby boomer parents who experimented with drugs and alcohol as teens trying to be friends not parents to their children i ve even seen parents serving kegs of beer to their underage kids and friends shiff says for a recent graduation shiff and other parents organized an all night lock in party where no booze or drugs were allowed we need to fulfill that parental role otherwise the peer group takes over she says officials may talk about the war on drugs but they really haven t done anything that i ve seen says suzanne linkous scottsdale ariz a volunteer who talks with teens about drugs dating and other issues on a peer counseling and suicide hot line linkous a member of usa today s teen panel says there s always going to be experimentation with drugs a real war on drugs could be waged education wise she says but some don t want to give kids the facts they think it will give them ideas it s the same with birth control i think you should give the kids the information or have it accessible through classes pamphlets and speakers she says education efforts need to start as soon as kids get in school in kindergarten says dallas owens teen panelist from miami shores fla i remember in kindergarten i used to see drugs i think kids in the th and th grades have already made up their minds about using drugs he says scare tactics in public service announcements aren t working only one commercial has gotten it right he says the commercial opens with two good looking girls in the restroom talking about having no prom date then they take a hit off a joint that hits home because it s not attractive he says you can t be doing drugs if you want somebody to like you adolescents choices drugs used by eighth graders in the last month estimated per students pct chg alcohol cigarettes marijuana amphetamines lsd cocaine crack source university of michigan institute for social research report scott kennedy brewer and patriot before david koresh is a cheap thug who interprets the bible through the barrel of a gun atf spokesman after the atf is a cheap thug who interprets the constitution through the barrel of a gun me
talk.politics.misc	re the manitoban candidate smith phoneme harvard edu steven smith writes bross sandbanks cosc brocku ca brian ross writes in the world of the future bill clinton will appoint canadians to govern all american institutions starting with the american health care system we will be benevolent canadian dictators with yet another tax being floated by the clinton administration to pay for new free social programs i ve really begun to suspect that the canadians long resentful of their place in the american shadow brainwashed an american draft dodger who fled to canada some time between and tutored him in the ways of canadian socialism awarded him with smokeless marijuana cigarettes when he got the correct answers then returned him to the states under the control of the domineering wife assigned to his case to attain high public office and destroy the evil individualistic and free market forces in america thus shaping america in the canadian image and not only that made a second clone from the same tissue sample after that of said domineering wife to run at the helm of the more pro business party under guise of more free trade and she did inhale many times to boot gld je me souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
talk.politics.misc	re how many homosexuals are there in article apr romulus rutgers edu kaldis romulus rutgers edu theodore a kaldis writes perhaps but most likely not more than a new study discrediting kinsey says so yes i saw today in o clock news on kcbs here in san francisco this statistic quoted men had sex with another man cinsider themself homosexual i understand of course that because this statistic goes against common believe and not pc correct it must be complete bs thx vlad vladimir kuznetsov natural intelligence consulting vlad netcom com compuserve com vkuznetsov mci com
talk.politics.misc	re ca s pedophilia laws clayton my man you are a tad out of touch first gay comunities all over the country are in the process of excluding nambla from parades etc nobody from nambla is gonna get a job in a day care centre the same liberals you are upset about are also passing laws that make tough background checks for childcare people tell me how would you feel if your employer fired you for your antigay post on the internet would you be upset i ll bet you would be pissed to some your posts ight make the company look bad while your posts offend me i dont think it would be right for you to get fired over it i dont believe the gay comunity is asking for hiring quotas like the affirmative action laws of the s did my understanding is that the gay community just wants the same rights the srtraights have i dont think people should have their leases cancelled when their landlord finds out they are gay i dont think that when someone sees someone walk out of a gay business and then blabs it all over work that the gay person gets fired do you really think these are justified clayton i am told you are a parent a couple times over have you been following the strip in the paper for better or for worse i honestly want your opinion as a parent on the strip do you really care about your childeren as much as friends of mine tell me how much do you care about your childeren how much do you care about other people s childeren do you care about my childeren do you care about my sister s childeren if one of your kids told you he she was gay would you throw them out of your home in the middle of the night would you approve of your childeren driving down to san francisco to trow bottles at and beat up on gay people would you condone your childeren beating up on someone elses childeren i await your answers to these queastions please no flaming this is to be a civilised discussion from one father to another
talk.politics.misc	re how many homosexuals are there in article apr romulus rutgers edu kaldis romulus rutgers edu theodore a kaldis writes perhaps but most likely not more than a new study discrediting kinsey says so wow does this mean out of homosexuals will be at the march on washington how very interesting cpk it s been days do you know where your wallet is slick willy s already got his hand in my pocket i m just afraid of what he might grab hold of
talk.politics.misc	re abolish selective service dave borden borden head cfa harvard edu wrote the selective service registration should be abolished to start with the draft is immoral whether you agree with that or not we don t have one now and military experts agree that the quality of the armed forces is superior with a volunteer army than with draftees finally the government has us on many lists in many computers the irs social security admistration and motor vehicle registries to name a few and it can find us if it needs to maintaining yet another list of people is an utter waste of money and time let s axe this whole department and reduce the deficit a little bit let me say this about that as a retired navy officer i agree cut it but let s not stop there eliminate the c transport overwight overdue overbudget it was supposed to carry tanks new tanks are now too big for the airplane scrap the seawolf ssn nuclear submarine the breakup of the ussr has left us with a number of sticky military problems but none of them will require god s gift to submarines ground the b stealth bomber i m sure it s a great airplane that will do everything its designers said but at half a gigabuck a copy we can t afford for even one to crash and airplanes do crash elmo zumwalt said it best years ago high low a mix of a few extremely capable weapons systems and a lot of cheaper moderate capability systems ken mitchell the powers not delegated to the united states by the kmitchel netcom com constitution nor prohibited by it to the states are citrus heights ca reserved to the states respectively or to the people
talk.politics.misc	re nc vs hunt marine gay bashing in wilmington nc verdict in article mattm mcmelmon apple com mattm apple com matthew melmon writes yeah yeah yeah anyway i was under the impression that the marines in question invited clinton down for the same treatment while a bar fight is a bar fight threatening the commander in chief seems a rather unprofessional thing for a professional soldier to do also it appears that two of the three marines have some sort of charges pending against them from another fight they were in a week before interesting frank frank r chloupek chloupek ohstpy mps ohio state edu department of physics the ohio state university not just any ohio state university there is only one hard and fast rule about the place to have a party somebody else s place p j o rourke
talk.politics.misc	re nc vs hunt marine gay bashing in wilmington nc verdict in article apr pony ingres com jab ingres com jeff bowles writes tfarrell lynx dac northeastern edu thomas farrell writes questions like what kind of sexual perversions do you participate in and you think he made a good case the arresting officer said the bastards told him they did it on purpose and hoped the victim would die and you think the defense made a good case no wonder we re losing we re aparently not trying to win the clip i saw was even worse than that the defense attorney was asking something like what have you done to serve your country as compared to these fine upstanding examples of patriotism i didn t see the response i don t think it was shown on tv i wish the response had been i vote i pay taxes i pay my salary i support the bill of rights unlike you counselor in my dreams now the real question is could this be a federal civil rights case since the state case was a sham sound like a well known los angeles trial probably not fags and dykes aren t protected for being fags and dykes under civil rights laws i would doubt any civil rights case would be in order for the point that you mentioned even if it were possible i think it is a bad idea since it smacks real strongly of double jeopardy a civil case for damages is fine since that is a trial that would proceed regardless of the first i think a bad precedent has already been set in the king trial in l a and something like this would make it worse regardless of how bad anybody feels about this decision it must stand that charges of assault were not not proven against the three marines and that s how it should stand frank who is still mad but now somewhat sane frank r chloupek chloupek ohstpy mps ohio state edu department of physics the ohio state university not just any ohio state university there is only one hard and fast rule about the place to have a party somebody else s place p j o rourke
talk.politics.misc	re clinton s immunization program in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu ryan c scharfy writes excuse me for sticking my nose in but any parent parents who do not allready immunize their children especially if it is already free don t deserve one frigging dime of tax money for health care for themselves or public health care service i know the immunization program and the coming national health care issue are slightly seperate issues but anybody who wouldn t help their kids don t deserve my tax help hmmmmm what about their kids cpk it s been days do you know where your wallet is slick willy s already got his hand in my pocket i m just afraid of what he might grab hold of
talk.politics.misc	re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes these two paragraphs are from two different posts in splicing them together it is not my intention to change steve s meaning or misrepresent him in any way i don t think i ve done so as noted in another thread limiting govt the problem libertarians face is insuring that the limited government they seek does not become the tool of private interests to pursue their own agenda it is a failure of libertarianism if the ideology does not provide any reasonable way to restrain such actions other than utopian dreams just as marxism fails to specify how pure communism is to be achieved and the state is to wither away libertarians frequently fail to show how weakening the power of the state will result in improvement in the human condition part of what started this was my earlier example of illinois usa requiring anyone doing more than x automobile transfers a year x i think to become licensed as a used car dealer in addition it requirs anyone with a used car dealer s license to own at least cars at a time all the time let me continue with this example and try to answer steve s questions steve let s say you have the talent and inclination to fix up and resell cars either you ve gotten good enough at it in your spare time to bump up against these limits or you would like to do it full time but these stupid arbitrary laws prevent you from starting out small and pulling yourself up so i m protected from a hungry neighborhood competitor willing to take a low profit while working extra hard to fulfill my needs and you re protected from doing what you want with your life here s what i see libertarianism offering you your money is truly yours it belongs to you you can use it to buy a car if you use it to buy a car it is truly your car it belongs to you you can use your money to fix up that car since it is your car you can sell that car your life is truly yours it belongs to you it matters not if someone thinks that it s wrong for you to buy and sell cars within months rather than say cars they may dissaprove but it is not their life or their money it is your life and your money my money is truly mine it belongs to me i can use it to buy a car perhaps your car perhaps that th car the one that someone somewhere dissaproves of you selling and presumably of me buying that someone could go to the government and insist that the government make us stop it but the government would be powerless to stop us from doing what we like with our own property in the abscence of fraud or agression and it would be powerless to stop us from associating with each other this does not seem to me to be a utopian dream but basic human decency and common sense a real grass roots example of freedom and liberty and yes not having a few people acting as our masters approving or rejecting each of our basic transactions with each other does strike me as a wonderful way to improve the human condition thanks awfully patrick
talk.politics.misc	re top ten signs that it s the age of aquarius on pennsylvania avenue in article ql tuinn j minerva cis yale edu chaudhary amar yale edu amar chaudhary writes here s my own top ten response to mr ipser s list it just so happens that that it takes money to make this country work to provide the services that people need and to help solve the problems that need to be solved granted some things can probably be done more efficiently for less money and should be but some things are going to cost more money and i m sick and tired of hearing everyone whining about taxes all the time you want to live in my country you pay your fair share some people pay shares that are more fair than others and will continue to do so even with the presence of president clinton until the rich elite hurt from taxes and shower me with their blood dripping from the wound of the tax dagger i will scream and yell because taxes are killing the poor and middle class and i m tired of the wealthy getting a free ride in this country sure they pay a lot of taxes but i want them to share my pain and not even slick willy is that fair is he seeing that he and his wife qualify as one of those wealthy people i was talking about they re on the lower end of wealthy but wealthy they are i can t believe what hypocrites people are when they ask people to give up their lives for their country and then complain about taxes if you re willing to send me off to die for some stupid obsession with fighting an enemy which at best doesn t affect us and at worst really should be our friend then you have no right to tell me you shouldn t pay taxes yah i think the draft for vietnam was a sack of shit but do we get to pick and choose which laws we obey mr chaudhary if so shall we set up a you follow the laws you like and i ll follow the laws i like arrangement hey i think the beaded curtains add a lovely s esque touch i never thought much of beaded curtains now beaded seat covers on the other hand health care is a human right deleted i didn t think i was going to respond to this but i changed my mind tell me why do you think health care is a human right this isn t a flame or anything i just wonder next thing you know free public transportation will be a human right maybe membership at prestigious health spas sorry to grease the hill on ya there make love not war be sure and wrap that wanker when you go spreadin that free love stuff around or after the fda gets its thumb out of its ass use that neat new reality femi condom contrary to popular belief it is possible to be a male and a feminist at the same time to discriminate against or to deny equal opportunity to a majority of the population is just plain wrong and trying to force them into some sort of tradition role is even worse women certainly have as much to offer this world as men and the day that gender discrimination is finally broken it going to make all the revolutions of the past few centuries seem like reform bills i look forward to it so do i amen and all that hey man acadamia rules what the hell is an acadamia anyway is that like a macadamia cpk it s been days do you know where your wallet is slick willy s already got his hand in my pocket i m just afraid of what he might grab hold of
talk.politics.misc	re national sales tax the movie in article aa inet gw pa dec com blh uiboise idbsu edu broward l horne writes purile babble deleted well some form of guaranteed health care isn t a bad idea but yah i m a bit worried of a gubnint run hmo myself i d much rather have something like canada has and i ll belt anyone who tells me to move to canada but since people will yell and scream no not one like canada has we re probably all screwed bromeister predicted per middle class taxpayer in new taxes a national sales tax impressive let the great chuckmeister make a couple predictions if you will the sun will rise tomorrow rush will bash clinton on his next show i will turn out to be clinton s love child chances are i ll get at least one of those right if i m lucky i may even get two now for more aammmaaaazzzzzziinnnnggggg predictions i the nst will be raised from to by ooops they already did it okay then the nst will be raised from to by can t argue with you there once the gubnint has its hands in yer pocket they just can t help but feel around a bit ii unemployment will rise oh no sh you mean our weakened economy will collapse in the face of all this gubnint tax and spending and everyone will be in the handout line you re a genius iii tax revenues will decline deficit will increase we ll get another deficit reduction package by everyone will dance and sing deficit reduction spending cuts via fee increases to paraphrase hilary clinton i will not raise taxes on the middle class to pay for my programs to paraphrase bill clinton i will not raise taxes on the middle class to pay for my programs no any first year polisci major will tell you that the prez never raises taxes congress does it all those who voted the clinton ticket get to wear this new label sucka made in usa hook line and sinker chuckle cpk it s been days do you know where your wallet is slick willy s already got his hand in my pocket i m just afraid of what he might grab hold of
talk.politics.misc	re the tories could win the lottery clinton gst in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu ryan c scharfy writes this country is hardly ruined in fact it is booming compared to after the election this whole usa has gone to hell and reagan bush caused it is not only lame pathetic and old it s wrong under reagan bush the economy grew by trillion dollars this is more than the entire economy of germany a kind gentle country in many peoples books what a joke drive down to cincinnati and take a look not pretty is it things were much better there in all that growth went into the hands of ron and georgie s pals and i didn t get a single dime of it dammit and now i m gonna be bled to death by tax leeches to pay for the damage f ing great oh here s another thing seems like a lot of people in columbus drive over to marysville and make japanese cars hm i wonder how many american owned companies employ those in central ohio other than ohio state university cpk it s been days do you know where your wallet is slick willy s already got his hand in my pocket i m just afraid of what he might grab hold of
talk.politics.misc	re pro abortion feminist leader endorses trashing of free speech rights do the words chilling effect stimulate impulses within that small collection of neurons you call a brain cpk it s been days do you know where your wallet is slick willy s already got his hand in my pocket i m just afraid of what he might grab hold of
talk.politics.misc	re foreign media reaction april part of phill hallam baker hallam dscomsa desy de wrote first off they could recognise iraqu s responsibility in initiating the iran iraq war providing technical assistance to iran to get it s oil production back up to capacity would also be a smart move at the moment iran is above it s opec ceiling if they had extra capacity they would use it and bring down the oild price further which is in our interests i agree with most of what phill says except the point about it being in our interests to bring down the oil price consider that both the u s and great britain have domestic sources to partly satisfy their energy needs pricy opec oil impacts both germany japan and many other industrial rivals more than these two in addition the proceeds from the sale especially by saudi arabia kuwait u a e etc are disproportionately reinvested in the u s and g b propping up these economies and further providing an incentive to keep prices from falling too low dan epstein
talk.politics.misc	re mr cramer s evidence in article philc hsii gft netcom com phil netcom com phil ronzone writes naw i think you are while both organizations may on paper support the abolition of the age of consent there the resemblance stops one supports the removal of a coercive law the other a paper facade to legitimize sexual relations with children i get it one organization wants to abolish age of consent laws whereas in contrast the other wants to abolish age of consent laws this makes it respectable to belong to one organization but not the other gene ward smith brahms gang iwr ruprecht karls university gsmith kalliope iwr uni heidelberg de
talk.politics.misc	representation of territories was re the lunch boyd turtle fisher com writes in article ws s b w w keys lonestar org cwinemil keys lonestar org chris winemiller writes btw is anyone besides myself peeved that non us citizens puerto ricans etc are very close to having full representation in the u s house of representatives sorry chris puerto ricans are us citizens ok i stand corrected i guess then that the comments about payoffs i e pork to puerto ricans that others have been making still stands now everybody how about some opinion on the following related topic should the people who are natives of u s territories have representation in the u s house of rep s or the u s congress the u s constitution sets up the house of representatives to represent each state in proportion to its population and the senate to represent each state equally what should be done with u s territories like puerto rico does anyone have knowledge about how this was handled in the past such as with the louisiana territory or the northwest territory chris chris winemiller internet cwinemil keys lonestar org uucp texsun letni keys cwinemil
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes from the santa rosa cal press democrat april p b male sex survey gay activity low a new natonal study on male sexual behavior the most thorough examination of american men s sexual practices published since the kinsey report more than four decades ago shows about percent of the men surveyed had engaged in homosexual sex and percent considered themselves exclusively homosexual the figures on homosexuality in the study released wednesday by the alan guttmacher institute are significantly lower than the percent figure that has been part of the conventional wisdom since it was published in the kinsey report so what it will be interesting to see the reaction when million queers gather in washington dc after all if there are only million of us then this is an event unprecidented in history the article also contains numbers on the number of sexual partners the median number of sexual partners for all men was don t forget that had or more partners compared to the table i have already posted from masters johnson and kolodny showing male homosexual partners it is apparent that homosexual men are dramatically more promiscuous than the general male population and what did this study show for number of sexual contacts for those who said they where homosexual or is that number to inconvient for you it s a shame that we don t have a breakdown for straight men vs gay bi men that would show even more dramatically how much more promiscuous gay bi men are fuck off join the pythagorean reform church repent of your evil irrational numbers and bean eating ways accept into your heart call the pythagorean reform church bbs at
talk.politics.misc	re mow bodycount spp zabriskie berkeley edu steve pope writes any thoughts on who is going to count all of the gorgeous bodies at the mow the press the white house staff the most junior senator the king of the motss bi just curious as to whose bias we are going to see when the numbers get brought out probably law enforcement people park service police and d c cops who will use aerial photographs and extrapolate based on the density of the crowd in small regions these sort of techniques derive from army intelligence and cia methods of estimating troop strength and tend to be methodologically skewed to always come up with inflated numbers so as to justify bigger budgets judging from past experience the march a peace and justice march the same year and different pro coice marches the park service will come out with an estimate that is approximately the estimate that organizers will come up with though the last choice march i went to had a sign in system and the numbers ended up closer and then you ve got the media types in their helicopters rolling dice i believe the mow plans and handing out some sort of wristband thingy and basing their count on those i see two problems with this one can they get everybody to take one and only one two they couldn t possibly have been able to choose a color design that won t clash with somebody s outfit bearpaw
talk.politics.misc	re sexual proposition sexual harassment this is a tesrt s
talk.politics.misc	re employment was re why not concentrate on child molesters sys exnet co uk xavier gallagher writes no i make a distinction between working for yourself to survive and paying dues to mother nature in the form of labour and working for joe propertyowner because you do not have the option of working for yourself joe propertyowner stands between you and the earth you work and expects you to pay him and mother nature for the right to survive the property laws create a layer of parasites that get fat on the fact that people have no option except to work in factories i want people to be able to get the things they need in life property ownership may not be ideal but it is far better at letting people get what they need to live a productive fulfulling life the first experiment in america where property ownership was denied caused starvation hunger and death few people know that the pilgrims originally tried to have common property to grow food and a common food store many people know the hardships they suffered the first few winters because of it after arriving the pilgrims made all property common they all shared in the work and the resulting crops went into a common store after much debate the new governor bradford privitized the land assigning plots to each family according to perry d westbrook the change was immediately justified by the increased industry of the inhabitants and by the larger acreage planted bradford himself acknowledged this failure of communism he wrote the experience that was had in this common course and condition tried sundry years and that amongst godly and sober men may well evince the vanity of that conceit of plato s and other ancients applauded by some of later times that the taking away of property and bringing in community into a commonwealth would make them happy and flourishing as if they were wiser than god for this community so far as it was was found to breed much confusion and discontent and retard much employment that would have been to their benefit and comfort bradford did not blame this failure on the strangers but on the basic selfishness in all men he wrote seeing all men have this corruption in them god in his wisdom saw another course fitter for them in other words according to westbrook bradford found private enterprise to be the most suitable economic policy for mankind in its fallen state let s not make the same mistake that the pilgrims made private property allows a society to flourish the alternative brings starvation poverty and discontent paul schmidt advocates for self government davy crockett chapter president judith drive johnson city tn uunet tijc pjs freedom seems to have unleashed the creative energies of the people and leads to ever higher levels of income and social progress u n report
talk.politics.misc	re abolish selective service kmitchel netcom com kenneth c mitchell writes dave borden borden head cfa harvard edu wrote the selective service registration should be abolished to start with the draft is immoral whether you agree with that or not we don t have one now and military experts agree that the quality of the armed forces is superior with a volunteer army than with draftees finally the government has us on many lists in many computers the irs social security admistration and motor vehicle registries to name a few and it can find us if it needs to maintaining yet another list of people is an utter waste of money and time let s axe this whole department and reduce the deficit a little bit i m really surprised clinton hasn t already tried to do this he seems to want to tackle other irrelevant issues first so why not this one as well let me say this about that as a retired navy officer i agree cut it but let s not stop there eliminate the c transport wrong we need its capability sure it has its problems very few airplanes haven t but getting rid of something we need is not the answer what do you want to do start over a rebuild a new airplane from scatch it ll have its problems as well and there will be calls again for it to be scrapped the other option is to try to extend the life of the c s and c s that are getting extremely old scrap the seawolf ssn nuclear submarine ground the b stealth bomber it ll cost jobs but i m for it we especially don t need a b the ssn i know litttle about fpa
talk.politics.misc	top ten ways slick willie could improve his standing with americans top ten ways slick willie could improve his standing with americans institute a national sales tax to pay for the socialization of america s health care resources declare war on serbia reenact the draft stimulate the economy with massive income transfers to democtratic constituencies appoint an unrepetent socialist like mario cuomo to the suprmeme court focus like a laser beam on gays in the military put hillary in charge of the ministry of truth and move stephanopoulos over to socialzed health care balance the budget through confiscatory taxation remind everyone again how despite the democrats holding the presidency the majority of seats in the house and in the senate the republicans have still managed to block his tax and spend programs go back to england and get a refresher course in european socialism resign now copyright c edward a ipser jr be sure to look for slick willie s first very own book of top ten lists available soon in paperback
talk.politics.misc	re the role of the national news media in inflaming passions in article c iak zh murdoch acc virginia edu gsh w fermi clas virginia edu greg hennessy writes clayton cramer but what came out in much lower profile reporting was that the victim was a prostitute and the man had not paid her hence the false accusation there was no evidence the woman in question was a prostitute the defense merely alledged that she was the fact that she was wearing a miniskirt with no underwear was presented as evidence that she was a prostitute and the court apparently found this compelling even clayton knows the difference err perhaps clayton doesn t know the difference clayton does indeed know the difference greg apparently doesn t the judge found that there was some credible evidence that the marines were engaged in self defense no the judge found that the prosecution did not carry out the burder on proof because the judge found that there was some credible evidence that the marines were engaged in self defense got it knucklehead a small clipping from clarinews under fair use guidelines new hanover district court judge jacqueline morris goodson ruled in the benchtrial that the state failed to carry its burden in proving the marines acted to cause injury because in part repeat after me the judge found that there was some credible evidence that the marines were engaged in self defense hopefully one of these days you will understand interesting that in of the cases clayton does what he accuses others of doing with respect to credibility i would rate clayton cramer an order of magnitude higher than a the news media and b homosexuals but i never thought clayton was consistent clayton is indeed consistent and so are you the views expressed herein are theodore a kaldis my own only do you seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe that a major university rutgers remus rutgers edu kaldis as this would hold such views
talk.politics.misc	re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate in article c kh g cbnewse cb att com doctor cbnewse cb att com patrick b hailey writes in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes these two paragraphs are from two different posts in splicing them together it is not my intention to change steve s meaning or misrepresent him in any way i don t think i ve done so as noted in another thread limiting govt the problem libertarians face is insuring that the limited government they seek does not become the tool of private interests to pursue their own agenda it is a failure of libertarianism if the ideology does not provide any reasonable way to restrain such actions other than utopian dreams just as marxism fails to specify how pure communism is to be achieved and the state is to wither away libertarians frequently fail to show how weakening the power of the state will result in improvement in the human condition patrick s example of anti competitive regulations for auto dealers deleted here s what i see libertarianism offering you this does not seem to me to be a utopian dream but basic human decency and common sense a real grass roots example of freedom and liberty and yes not having a few people acting as our masters approving or rejecting each of our basic transactions with each other does strike me as a wonderful way to improve the human condition thanks awfully patrick let me try to drag this discussion back to the original issues as i ve noted before i m not necessarily disputing the benefits of eliminating anti competitive legislation with regard to auto dealers barbers etc one need not however swallow the entire libertarian agenda to accomplish this end just because one grants the benefits of allowing anyone who wishes to cut hair to sell his her services without regulation does not mean that the same unregulated barbers should be free to bleed people as a medical service without government intervention as some many libertarians would argue on a case by case basis the cost benefit ratio of government regulation is obviously worthwhile the libertarian agenda however does not call for this assessment it assumes that the costs of regulation of any kind always outweigh its benefits this approach avoids all sorts of difficult analysis but it strikes many of the rest of us as dogmatic to say the least i have no objection to an analysis of medical care education national defense or local police that suggests a free market can provide a more effective efficient means of accomplishing social objectives than is provided through statist approaches with some notable exceptions however i do not see such nitty gritty worthwhile analysis being carried out by self professed libertarians jsh steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing about data it sure does cut uucp uunet isc br thor steveh the bulls t r hofferbert ma bell
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article c k lc cyf murdoch acc virginia edu lfoard hopper virginia edu lawrence c foard writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes from the santa rosa cal press democrat april p b male sex survey gay activity low a new natonal study on male sexual behavior the most thorough examination of american men s sexual practices published since the kinsey report more than four decades ago shows about percent of the men surveyed had engaged in homosexual sex and percent considered themselves exclusively homosexual the figures on homosexuality in the study released wednesday by the alan guttmacher institute are significantly lower than the percent figure that has been part of the conventional wisdom since it was published in the kinsey report so what homosexuals lie about the number to hide the disproportionate involvement of homosexuals in child molestation they also lie about to keep politicians scared it will be interesting to see the reaction when million queers gather in washington dc after all if there are only million of us then this is an event unprecidented in history but many of the people who will be marching aren t homosexuals but other members of the leftist agenda the article also contains numbers on the number of sexual partners the median number of sexual partners for all men was don t forget that had or more partners not surprising remember that study includes homosexuals as well compared to the table i have already posted from masters johnson and kolodny showing male homosexual partners it is apparent that homosexual men are dramatically more promiscuous than the general male population and what did this study show for number of sexual contacts for those who said they where homosexual or is that number to inconvient for you it wasn t published it s a shame that we don t have a breakdown for straight men vs gay bi men that would show even more dramatically how much more promiscuous gay bi men are fuck off typical homoseuxal response clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article c l v jcv news cso uiuc edu dans uxa cso uiuc edu dan s writes don t forget about the culture sadly we don t as a society look upon homosexuality as normal and as we are all too well aware there are alot of people who condemn it as a result the gay population is not encouraged to develop non promiscuous relationships in fact there are many roadblocks put in the way of such committed relationships it is as if the heterosexual such as not being able to get married isn t a roadblock to a permanent relationship lack of a marriage certificate doesn t force a couple to break up this is an excuse used by homosexuals because the alternative is to ask why they are so much more promiscuous than straights dan clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article apr galileo cc rochester edu as b uhura cc rochester edu tree of schnopia writes in optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes the article also contains numbers on the number of sexual partners the median number of sexual partners for all men was compared to the table i have already posted from masters johnson and kolodny showing male homosexual partners it is apparent that homosexual men are dramatically more promiscuous than the general male population it s a shame that we don t have a breakdown for straight men vs gay bi men that would show even more dramatically how much more promiscuous gay bi men are possibly because gay bi men are less likely to get married marriage isn t a requirement for a couple staying together what was the purpose of this post if it was to show a mindless obsession with statistics an incredibly flawed system of reasoning and a repellent hatemonger agenda then the purpose was accomplished with panache a get a clue b get a life c get out of my face i m not in yours bi andrew d simchik schnopia yes you are when you and the rest of the homosexual community pass laws to impose your moral codes on me by requiring me to hire rent to or otherwise associate with a homosexual against my will yes you are in my face until homosexuals stop trying to impose their morals on me i will be in your face about this clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re the role of the national news media in inflaming passions in article c l apu murdoch acc virginia edu gsh w fermi clas virginia edu greg hennessy writes kaldis writes the fact that she was wearing a miniskirt with no underwear was presented as evidence that she was a prostitute and the court apparently found this compelling ah i know women who wear miniskirts without wearing underwear and they are not prostitutes do they have a history of working in massage parlors and telling co workers there that they are prostitutes do they frequent truck stop parking lots at am without id on any sort greg hennessy university of virginia clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article apr news cs brandeis edu st pip cc brandeis edu blort eeeep hwaaah writes actually i was rather surprised to see an article on this subject i e the new inproved survey saying that roughly of men are gay on the front page of the new york times recently i think it was on thurs april the headline was something to the effect of new survey finds of men are gay i was shocked not because the new york times was running a story on a sex survey although that was part of it but because they thought that this news was actually important enough to warrant front page space i mean how many people actually care how many people are gay as long as you know how to find avoid them if you want to i don t if you don t care why was so much effort put into promoting the lie because it was important to scare politicians into obedience matt clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re clinton president s trip to pittsburg sic in article ql bginnklu life ai mit edu clinton hq campaign org clinton gore writes statement by the press secretary the president will travel to pittsburgh on saturday april to talk about his job creation plan and its impact on the state of pennsylvania where it would create as many as would ha haaaa haa ha haaa how the hell can they come up with a number specified to the units column on something as complicated as this face it it s the perceptions that matter here folks not the facts especially this one full time jobs and up to summer jobs he will make a according to the pittsburgh post gazette that means over new jobs for allegheny county metro pgh alone haaaa haaa ha ha haaa heh heh haaaa snif doing what i hope it s fixing the potholes on my street let s face it folks we re in a depression and this is the wpa clinton s really coming here to beat on sen arlen specter who happens to be vacationing in africa don t know whether to laugh or cry casimir j casey palowitch in there will be two kinds slavic cataloger of computer professional those u of pgh library systems who know nextstep and those cjp pitt edu without jobs
talk.politics.misc	re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu ryan c scharfy writes in article stevethc jgcr ht netcom com steveth netcom com steve thomas wri tes just try to justify the war on drugs i dare you a friend of mine who smoke pot every day and last tuesday took hits of acid is still having trouble aiming for the bowl when he takes a dump don t as me how i just have seen the results boy i really wish we we cut the drug war and have more people screwed up in the head i m sorry about your friend really but this anecdote does nothing to justify the war on drugs if anything it demonstrates that the war is a miserable failure what it demonstrates is that people will take drugs if they want to legal or not perhaps if your friend were taking legal regulated drugs under a doctors supervision he might not be in the position he s in now dale cook any town having more churches than bars has a serious social problem edward abbey the opinions are mine only i e they are not my employer s
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage the article also contains numbers on the number of sexual partners the median number of sexual partners for all men was compared to the table i have already posted from masters johnson and kolodny showing male homosexual partners it is apparent that homosexual men are dramatically more promiscuous than the general male population it s a shame that we don t have a breakdown for straight men vs gay bi men that would show even more dramatically how much more promiscuous gay bi men are isn t is funny how someone who seems to know nothing about homosexuality uses a very flawed imho source of information to pass jusgement on all homosexual and bisexual men it would seem more logical to say that since the heterosexual group of men is larger then the chances of promiscuity larger as well in my opinion orientation has nothing to do with it men are men and they all like sex i am a gay male i have had sex three times in my life all with the same man before that i was a virgin so whose promiscuous just because someone is gay doesn t mean they have no morals just because someone is heterosexual doesn t mean they do look at the world statistics alone prove that most criminals are by default hetero look closely at the person not the group all flames will be ignored later brian stone unt cas tech support life without your touch is hard but life without you in unthinkable brian gab unt edu
talk.politics.misc	re the manitoban candidate in a previous article smith phoneme harvard edu steven smith says with yet another tax being floated by the clinton administration to pay for new free social programs i ve really begun to suspect that the canadians long resentful of their place in the american shadow brainwashed an american draft dodger who fled to canada some hey he has been talking with mulroney a lot huh
talk.politics.misc	only month ahhh remember the days of yesterday when we were only going to pay month when only of the population would pay extra taxes remember when a few of us predicted that it wasn t true remember the inaugural dancing and singing liberation at last well figure this out vat estimated to raise billion per year on cnn work it out chum taxpayers year but you exclaim i ll get free health care but i exclaim no you won t this is only for that poor million who have none not for you chum that comes later add in the estimates of the energy tax costs year plus all that extra corporate and rich taxes that will trickle down and what do you have year just like i said two months ago and the best part you don t get anything for it deficit is still projected to rise at same rate it s been rising at by clinton s own estimates and this assumes that his plan will work i mean come on it doesn t take a rocket scientist to see that in another or years we re getting another whopping tax increase because the deficit will still be growing faster than the economy all clinton is doing is moving us to a higher diving board face it clinton is bush x in four more years our country will be completely bankrupt and your children s future so oft mentioned by pal bill will be gone and those of you still deluding yourselves will be faced with the guilt well glancing at watch gotta go i want to be out of here by noon got an appointment at the lake no tax there yet
talk.politics.misc	re will italy be the next domino to fall note cross posted to alt politics italy and talk politics misc this is a reply to an article by ed ipser which also appeared in alt politics usa misc and alt politics libertarian but no longer belongs i hate to defend ed the article was very poorly written but here goes hallam dscomsa desy de phill hallam baker writes ed should take a look at the budget deficit regan and bush created together before he starts to make claims about europe collapsing based on the budget deficits here none of them are serious on the usa scale italy s per capita debt is much higher than usa s we do not want our countries to be run by a narrow elite of rich lawyers for the benefit of the super wealthy this is exactly what the public in france italy perceive to be the problem thus the french election and italian pulizia regarding the post pulizia italy what looks likely to happen is the fringe parties are going to do much better in the next election most of the parliamentary deputies are going to get replaced and the parties are going to be forced to look to people who are free of any hint of corruption look out for a parliament of pavarotti s and porn stars wrong this is true perhaps only for the lega nord the referendum sunday is expected to establish a british american style first past the post system in the senate if implemented it would encourage a two or perhaps three party system in italy most likely the dc and psi will not be these parties rather there will be a shakeup of the entire party structure from which new parties will emerge to dominate will lega nord be one of these who knows the camera dei deputati lower house will likely remain with proportional representation for a while but there is talk of switching a portion of that house too maybe as much as first past the post overall the electoral reform in italy is a welcome change italians are tired of having crappy government porn stars pavarotti s and hunters fishers won t gain seats because pr is dead a good two party system will bring italy efficient accountable government it s about time jeff hagen hagenjd ac wfu edu
talk.politics.misc	re national sales tax the movie in a previous article ckincy cs umr edu charles kincy says let the great chuckmeister make a couple predictions if you will the sun will rise tomorrow rush will bash clinton on his next show i will turn out to be clinton s love child hey i wasn t the one dancing and singing on jan now was i i was roundly ridiculed for my predictions sure they were easy tell that to the other of the people sucka made in usa hook line and sinker chuckle just wait until the see what clinton has planned for their pension funds this one doesn t take much thinking either uncle sam needs money bad and pension funds got it well they used to have it turns out the states have been plundering state employee funds for the past years ah it s gonna be swell
talk.politics.misc	re top ten excuses for slick willie s record setting disapproval rati in article qkl i bj usenet ins cwru edu an cleveland freenet edu broward horne says in a previous article mbs psuvm psu edu mark mark sachs says in article qhr a d usenet ins cwru edu an cleveland freenet edu broward horne says it sure does appear that way doesn t it the attitude that people are stupid if they don t agree with you is not going to bring you great success in life free advice there whew mark what on earth makes you think i give a fuck about being a success particularly now when i ll just the hell taxed out of me oh this is excellent that was hardly the point was it i was commenting on this all too common republican attitude that if people disagree with us they must be idiots they must be sheep being led around by the evil liberal media conspiracy this is a dangerous attitude indeed because it s not a very big step from people are sheep they can t think for themselves to people are sheep and need firm leadership from we who know better this sort of attitude makes me worry about what ll happen to the united states if the extremist wing of the republican party ever gets back into power again holy christ hey this is a government funded newsgroup let s have some separation of church and state damn it besides let s ahem examine the record shall we broward clinton s going to taxe the holy fuck out of you mark no he s not only month i still get a laugh out of this one more like broward clinton s going to raise your income taxes by over mark no he s not only about broward silence want some more free predictions ok i predict that in the republicans will still be bitter yeah yeah i know it s not very impressive to predict things that are inevitable so i propose that we destroy the moon neatly solving that problem your blood pressure just went up mark sachs is mbs psuvm psu edu disclaimer if psu knew i had opinions they d try to charge me for them
talk.politics.misc	re clayton need not retract in article apr romulus rutgers edu kaldis romulus rutgers edu theodore a kaldis writes civilized society the only way a homosexual can maintain even a modicum of respectability is by remaining in the closet the views expressed herein are theodore a kaldis my own only do you seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe that a major university rutgers remus rutgers edu kaldis as this would hold such views once again it appears that the one eyed man has appeared in the land of the sighted and for some strange resaon has appointed himself the ruler and supreme power joe cipale
talk.politics.misc	re top ten excuses for slick willie s record setting disapproval rati in article emoryu cc emory edu libwca emory edu bill anderson writes shapiro sofbas enet dec com steve shapiro writes oh and btw its william jefferson blythe clinton regards steve no it s not and i really fail to understand the use of that name as an insult do you feel that being adopted implies some sort of moral failing yes it is you could look it up and spare us the thin skinned indignation please what s sauce for four years of using george herbert walker bush and j danforth quayle as an insult is sauce for william jefferson blythe clinton do you feel that calling a president by his full name implies some sort of disrespect hint this is a rhetorical question paul havemann internet paul hsh com they re not just opinions they re caffeine for the brain up to milligrams per cynical observation recommended minimum daily requirement mg keep reading
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage brian gab unt edu brian drakula stone writes the article also contains numbers on the number of sexual partners the median number of sexual partners for all men was compared to the table i have already posted from masters johnson and kolodny showing male homosexual partners it is apparent that homosexual men are dramatically more promiscuous than the general male population it s a shame that we don t have a breakdown for straight men vs gay bi men that would show even more dramatically how much more promiscuous gay bi men are isn t is funny how someone who seems to know nothing about homosexuality uses a very flawed imho source of information to pass jusgement on all homosexual and bisexual men it would seem more logical to say that since the heterosexual group of men is larger then the chances of promiscuity larger as well in my opinion orientation has nothing to do with it i don t understand what you are getting at here if the chances of promiscuity are larger yet the rate of promiscuity is lower in the heterosexual community doesn t that imply that the homo bi sexual population is then even more promiscuous than the raw statistics imply no axe to grind here i m just a scientist and i hate to see statistics abused men are men and they all like sex i am a gay male i have had sex three times in my life all with the same man before that i was a virgin i am a hetero man and have had sex with one woman in my life my wife it is very pleasing to me to be able to say that i hope you have the same feeling as i do i also wish that you could if you wanted experience the joys and trials of being committed to someone for life there is something about marriage that makes the commitment much greater than one might expect so whose promiscuous just because someone is gay doesn t mean they have no morals just because someone is heterosexual doesn t mean they do look at the world statistics alone prove that most criminals are by default hetero don t forget about the culture sadly we don t as a society look upon homosexuality as normal and as we are all too well aware there are alot of people who condemn it as a result the gay population is not encouraged to develop non promiscuous relationships in fact there are many roadblocks put in the way of such committed relationships it is as if the heterosexual community puts these blocks there so as to perpetuate the claim that gays are immoral my if we allowed gays to marry raise children we might just find out they re as moral as we are can t have that can we just some thoughts flame away dan
talk.politics.misc	re top ten ways slick willie could improve his standing with americans in article c kmz hy newsserver technet sg ipser solomon technet sg ed ipser wrote top ten ways slick willie could improve his standing with americans deleted for a very good reason which i m sure you can guess enact a law that bans people without a sense of humor from posting allegedly humorous items if he did this i think his approval rating would go through the roof copyright c edward a ipser jr this means we can t quote ed without his permission no using these lists in your sigs folks mel walker mwalker novell com all opinions expressed are of the author novell inc is not responsible for the content of this article
talk.politics.misc	re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in apr igor tamri com donb igor tamri com don baldwin writes think about it shouldn t all drugs then be legalized it would lower the cost and definitely make them safer to use i think so and i don t use drugs outside of the legal ones alcohol and coffee i m addicted to chocolate myself mob rule isn t any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government it ain t charity if you are using someone else s money wilson s theory of relativity if you go back far enough we re all related mark wilson atlantaga ncr com
talk.politics.misc	re clinton s immunization program in article apr martha utcc utk edu pa utkvm utk edu david veal writes in article c jobh zt apollo hp com goykhman apollo hp com red herring writes in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu jlinder magnus acs ohio state edu jeffrey s linder writes in article c fjsl is ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr c om mark wilson writes on the news last night clinton was bashing the republicans for stonewalling his so called stimulus package it seems that one small item within this package was going to pay for free immunizations for poor kids immunizations for children in this country are already free if you care to go have it done the problem is not the cost it is the irresponible parents who are to stupid or to lazy to have it done in case you haven t noticed clintonites are pushing a universal health care access program access here means that folks who do not give a damn about immunizing their children will have health care services delivered to their doorsteps i ve read about more than a few of these programs that ran into problems in convincing parents to get their children immunized even when they were delivered to their doorstep i don t know maybe that sheet they have to be informed of about possible risks side effects and bad reactions scares them the immunization program is just a useful first step among other things the money will go to pay for creating and maintaning a a computerized innoculation database on all u s children code named big mother just kidding the name will be children defense database or something like that once the money is spent and little or no tangible results achieved the goverment will have to start knocking down doors in some neigborhoods and bribe parents in others probably the ones that are paying kids for attending the school what a fantastic idea david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al disclaimer opinions expressed are mine not my employer s
talk.politics.misc	re sexual proposition sexual harassment in article lynn pcgeo lynn granitt uio no malcolm lynn writes this is a tesrt s of your spelling eh dr zippy dr zippy proof that dum blonde isn t a women only title ihorton uk ac coventry cck
talk.politics.misc	re clinton s immunization program in article apr utkvx utk edu drevik utkvx utk edu drevik steve writes in article c jobh zt apollo hp com goykhman apollo hp com red herring writes in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu jlinder magnus acs ohio state edu jeffrey s linder writes in article c fjsl is ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr c om mark wilson writes on the news last night clinton was bashing the republicans for stonewalling his so called stimulus package it seems that one small item within this package was going to pay for free immunizations for poor kids immunizations for children in this country are already free if you care to go have it done the problem is not the cost it is the irresponible parents who are to stupid or to lazy to have it done i don t know where you live but this is not the case nationawide perhaps your state or municipality has put together the funds to do so but in my area and most areas where i know people immunizations cost nationwide the immunization rate among toddlers is about but it is reportedly as low as in some inner city neighborhoods i bet more than kids living in such neighborhoods are already covered by medicaid here in massachussets we have had a universal immunization program the kind of clinton seems to be proposing for many years two decades mass immunization rate is what about the other i guess some parents are indeed too ignorant or too lazy or simply do not care sorry to shatter your stereotypes in case you haven t noticed clintonites are pushing a universal health care access program access here means that folks who do not give a damn about immunizing their children will have health care services delivered to their doorsteps disclaimer opinions expressed are mine not my employer s disclaimer opinions expressed are mine not my employer s
talk.politics.misc	re why not concentrate on child molesters in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes in article bu edu kane buast bu edu hot young star writes when are you going to admit that the data you presented show just this that only about of child molesters are gay and thus are not overrepresented with respect to the general incidence of homosexuality when someone can show something besides a redbook article correct me if i m wrong but isn t this irrelevant either the data shows something or it doesn t regardless of what other studies show admit it what you showed to us doesn t prove that gay men are more likely to be molesters brian kane buast astro bu edu hot young star astronomy dept boston university boston ma true personal salvation is achieved by absolute faith in ones true self
talk.politics.misc	re abolish selective service in article apr ra msstate edu fpa trumpet cc msstate edu fletcher p adams writes kmitchel netcom com kenneth c mitchell writes dave borden borden head cfa harvard edu wrote the selective service registration should be abolished to start with the draft is immoral whether you agree with that or not we don t have one now and military experts agree that the quality of the armed forces is superior with a volunteer army than with draftees finally the government has us on many lists in many computers the irs social security admistration and motor vehicle registries to name a few and it can find us if it needs to maintaining yet another list of people is an utter waste of money and time let s axe this whole department and reduce the deficit a little bit i m really surprised clinton hasn t already tried to do this he seems to want to tackle other irrelevant issues first so why not this one as well considering that clinton received a draft notice and got out of it he admits it the political feasibility of him abolishing it is not something he would be inclined to risk any extra exposure on let me say this about that as a retired navy officer i agree cut it but let s not stop there eliminate the c transport wrong we need its capability sure it has its problems very few airplanes haven t but getting rid of something we need is not the answer what do you want to do start over a rebuild a new airplane from scatch it ll have its problems as well and there will be calls again for it to be scrapped the other option is to try to extend the life of the c s and c s that are getting extremely old if you read aviation week the c line can be reopened and the c s would be delivered a year earlier and cost a billion less for the program politically though the c is popular pork scrap the seawolf ssn nuclear submarine ground the b stealth bomber it ll cost jobs but i m for it we especially don t need a b the ssn i know litttle about agreed congress took money from nasa and fha to fund the second seawolf the shipyards are still building los angeles class submarines and there is a lack of asw foes to contend with the navy is considering reducing the number of attack subs to navy times and that would entail getting rid of or mothballing some of the current los angeles class politically general dynamics is in connecticut and we will get seawolf subs whether we need them or not in addition more bases need to be closed probably long beach naval station and others the navy is talking about three main bases on each coast being required to home port a total fleet of ships the question is whether les aspin and clinton will be able to face down a pork happy congress marc mueller
talk.politics.misc	re national sales tax the movie speaking of vat did anyone see cnn s report yesterday it was quite hillarious no pun intended they ran down how a percent tax was added at each stage of manufacturing graphicaly depicting a stack of quarters being added at each wholesale stage when they got to the final stage the actual retail sale the small stack of quarters added to the large stack already there was said to be the amount paid by consumers in other words they completed ignored the fact that at each stage the tax would of course be passed on to the next buyer with the retail consumer paying the full load these are not journalists they re lap dogs roger shouse the university of chicago email shou midway uchicago edu
talk.politics.misc	re national sales tax the movie in article aa inet gw pa dec com blh uiboise idbsu edu broward l horne writes well it seems the national sales tax has gotten its very own cnn news logo cool that means we ll be seeing it often man i sure am glad that i quit working or taking this seriously in if i kept busting my ass watching time go by being frustrated i d be pretty damn mad by now i just wish i had the e mail address of total gumby who was saying that clinton didn t propose a nst actually jerry brown essentially did and clinton in his demagogue persona condemned brown for it in the crucial ny primary last year however why don t the republicans get their act together and say they will support a broad based vat that would have to be visible the vat in canada is visible unlike the invisible vats they have in europe and suggest a rate sufficient to halve income and corporate and capital gains tax rates and at a rate sufficient to give the clintons enough revenue for their health care reform and force an agreement with the democrats that the top income tax rate would then be frozen for the forseeable future and could be increased only via a national referendum why not make use of the clintons to do something worthwhile shift the tax burden from investment to consumption and get health care reform and a frozen low top marginal tax rate all in one fell swoop gerald
talk.politics.misc	re the state of justice in article apr desire wright edu demon desire wright edu not a boomer writes a judge denied gm s new trial motion even though gm says it has two new witnesses that said the occupant of the truck was dead from the impact not from the fire thoughts it s kind of scary when you realize that judges are going to start denying new trials even when new evidence that contradicts the facts that led to the previous ruling appear or has the judge decided that the new witnesses are not to be believed shouldn t that be up to a jury and what about members of the previous jury parading through the talk shows proclaiming their obvious bias against gm shouldn t that be enough for a judge to through out the old verdict and call for a new trial whatever happened to jurors having to be objective first people should be aware that brett s no last name listed posts on bit listserv politics indicate that he has been hostile toward gm s hiring policies and to the moseley verdict when it came out equal opportunity disagreement i guess my guess without seeing the judge s opinion is that gm s motion was denied on due diligence grounds otherwise a party to a case could always keep one or two semi credible witnesses in reserve to spring if they lose not exactly a way to promote repose daniel reitman the uniform commercial code protects the innocent purchaser but it is not a shield for the sly conniver the blindly naive or the hopelessly gullible atlas auto rental corp v weisberg misc d n y s d n y city civ ct
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes the article also contains numbers on the number of sexual partners the median number of sexual partners for all men was compared to the table i have already posted from masters johnson and kolodny showing male homosexual partners it is apparent that homosexual men are dramatically more promiscuous than the general male population it s a shame that we don t have a breakdown for straight men vs gay bi men that would show even more dramatically how much more promiscuous gay bi men are possibly because gay bi men are less likely to get married what was the purpose of this post if it was to show a mindless obsession with statistics an incredibly flawed system of reasoning and a repellent hatemonger agenda then the purpose was accomplished with panache a get a clue b get a life c get out of my face i m not in yours drewcifer bi andrew d simchik schnopia as b uhura cc rochester edu treewater words weren t made for cowards happy rhodes
talk.politics.misc	re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in article apr pmafire inel gov cdm pmafire inel gov dale cook writes in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu ryan c scharfy writes in article stevethc jgcr ht netcom com steveth netcom com steve thomas w ri tes just try to justify the war on drugs i dare you a friend of mine who smoke pot every day and last tuesday took hits of acid is still having trouble aiming for the bowl when he takes a dump don t as me how i just have seen the results boy i really wish we we cut the drug war and have more people screwed up in the head i m sorry about your friend really but this anecdote does nothing to justify the war on drugs if anything it demonstrates that the war is a miserable failure what it demonstrates is that people will take drugs if they want to legal or not perhaps if your friend were taking legal regulated drugs under a doctors supervision he might not be in the position he s in now i do agree with you in a way the war on drugs has failed but in my opinion that doesn t mean we have to give up only change the tactics for instance here are how some penalties should be changed dealing coke death dealing heroin death dealing pot death dealing crack death the list goes on and on just kidding however on a more serious note i do believe that we should take some money away from the foriegn operations in south america and costly border interdiction efforts don t think i m going to say spend it to educate people because i know plenty of educated dopers actually spend it on things like drug treatment programs i saw an interesting story on minutes about how the british actually prescribe and addict his recommended dosage and try to ween him off from it or cut the amount down to levels where it is acceptable sounds good so far from what i heard with a decrease in cost lower addiction rates by wiping out the dealer s markets etc but that was the only thing i have heard about it however legalizing it and just sticking some drugs in gas stations to be bought like cigarettes is just plain silly plus i have never heard of a recommended dosage for drugs like crack ecstasy chrystal meth and lsd the minute report said it worked with cocaine cigarettes pot and heroin ryan
talk.politics.misc	re top ten ways slick willie could improve his standing with americans in article c kmz hy newsserver technet sg ipser solomon technet sg ed ipser writes top ten ways slick willie could improve his standing with americans institute a national sales tax to pay for the socialization of america s health care resources declare war on serbia reenact the draft stimulate the economy with massive income transfers to democtratic constituencies appoint an unrepetent socialist like mario cuomo to the suprmeme court focus like a laser beam on gays in the military put hillary in charge of the ministry of truth and move stephanopoulos over to socialzed health care balance the budget through confiscatory taxation remind everyone again how despite the democrats holding the presidency the majority of seats in the house and in the senate the republicans have still managed to block his tax and spend programs go back to england and get a refresher course in european socialism snip and the number one way slick willie could improve his standing with americans drum roll anton get himself an appointment with dr kervorkian and keep it john kerrigan a k a jmkerrig vela acs oakland edu
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article apr news cs brandeis edu st pip cc brandeis edu blort eeeep hwaaah writes wouldn t one expect more heterosexual men than gay men to be promiscuous simply due to a larger group of potential partners just a thought matt you might except that gay men are much more promiscuous than straight men which shows how damaged and screwed up gay men are clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article c navn f p murdoch acc virginia edu gsh w fermi clas virginia edu greg hennessy writes in article philc n d mk netcom com phil netcom com phil ronzone writes tells you something about the fascist politics being practiced ah ending discrimination is now fascism greg hennessy university of virginia when you force people to associate with others against their will yes clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re why not concentrate on child molesters in article c og h de exnet co uk sys exnet co uk xavier gallagher writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes in article mjcugley apr glenturret maths and cs dundee ac uk mjcugley maths and cs dundee ac uk womble with attitude writes absolutely nothing seeing as there is no table for heterosexuals if as you claim the supposedly higher promescuity amongst homosexual males makes them an insurance risk you need to be show that heterosexual males are less promiscuous than homosexual males without the data on heterosexual males we cannot make a comparison between promiscuity rates of heterosexuals and homosexuals mjcugley maths and cs dundee ac uk world or mjcugley uk ac dund maths and cs uk well the obvious point to make is would straight men fuck like rabbits if the oppertunity presented itself i reckon any man would go wildly promiscuous if presented with a huge variety of willing partners the question here is not of being that i suppose says a lot about how screwed up you are clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine xavier clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re using california s antidiscrimination the sort of case i predicted in article c jv a f b exnet co uk sys exnet co uk xavier gallagher writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes in article apr armory com rstevew armory com richard steven walz writes face it clayton he was not found guilty and so what if gays sometimes make it consensually with year old boys there are year old gays you know and as i recall the case of the state rested on the testimony of one victim who declined to testify even under threat i have had teens since i was and so have a lot of people face it clayton you re just a jerk rsw richard steven walz rstevew deeptht armory com maple street without safe and free abortion women are santa cruz ca organ surrogates to unwanted parasites i am always amazed to see people admit to breaking the law and putting their address in the signature please tell us more about this were they would you like to make a statement for the district attorney i had sex with a year old boy it was great we did everything well a hell of a lot it was fun anyway oh and before you turn purple with rage i was at the time clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine the walz monster above however was past when he molested these kids as he says above clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
talk.politics.misc	re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in article apr gordian com mike gordian com michael a thomas writes in article c ij h l news iastate edu jrbeach iastate edu jeffry r beach writes in article apr gordian com mike gordian com michael a thomas writes in article c huh news iastate edu jrbeach iastate edu jeffry r beach writes i really don t want to waste time in here to do battle about the legalization of drugs if you really want to we can get into it and prove just how idiotic that idea is read i do not know what the fuck i m talking about and am not eager to make a fool of myself oh you foolish person i do know what the fuck i m talking about and will gladly demonstrate for such ignorants as yourself if you wish the legalization of drugs will provide few if any of the benefits so highly taunted by its proponents safer cheaper drugs along with revenues from taxes on those drugs reduced crime and reduced organized crime specifically etc etc if you would like to prove how clueless you are we can get into why again a lot of wasted posts that i don t think this group was intended for and something easily solved by you doing a little research from a pragmatic standpoint there certainly is some justification if it is a vice people will commit anyway shall we criminalize alcohol again if the re legalization for alcohol were done from making you look bad is too damn easy the vast social and historical differences between alcohol and other drugs make this comparison worthless vice statutes serve only to make it more expensive for the rich and more dangerous for the poor as tim so eloquently put it people will however and so it shall be if the government by the people decides that these vices are detrimental to the society as a whole and why pray tell is aids victim in snear quotes are you of the revisionist sort that thinks there is no such thing as the aids plauge or do they just deserve it the overwhelmingly vast majority get the point of aids cases are contracted thru behavioral choices nuff said
talk.politics.misc	re the state of justice in article qksa inni m shelley u washington edu tzs stein u washington edu tim smith writes demon desire wright edu not a boomer writes a judge denied gm s new trial motion even though gm says it has two new witnesses that said the occupant of the truck was dead from the impact not from the fire thoughts how can a witness tell that someone in a burning truck is dead rather than unconscious their testimony would be a contradiction of the plaintiff s charge and witness that the occupant moved after the impact indicating he was alive and trying to get out and provoking all sorts of sympathetic gross burned alive reactions it s kind of scary when you realize that judges are going to start denying new trials even when new evidence that contradicts the facts that led to the previous ruling appear or has the judge decided that the new witnesses are not to be believed shouldn t that be up to a jury what kind of witnesses if we are talking about witnesses who were at the accident or were otherwise directly involved e g paramedics emergency room doctors etc then they should have been used at the first trial you don t get a new trial because you screwed up and forgot to call all of your witnesses they are two witnesses who didn t come forth until after the first trial while it would be tough luck for gm if they new about these witnesses beforehand imo this constitutes new evidence if we are talking about new expert witnesses who will offer new interpretations of the data note that the loser can always find such witnesses if this were grounds for a new trial then the loser could always get a new trial and keep doing so until the loser becomes a winner and then the other side would come up with new expert witnesses no i support rulings that deny new trials on those grounds brett there s nothing so passionate as a vested interest disguised as an intellectual conviction sean o casey in the white plague by frank herbert
talk.politics.misc	pork c c was re abolish selective service muellerm vuse vanderbilt edu marc mueller writes fpa trumpet cc msstate edu fletcher p adams writes eliminate the c transport wrong we need its capability sure it has its problems if you read aviation week the c line can be reopened and the c s would be delivered a year earlier and cost a billion less for the program politically though the c is popular pork i do read av week and don t remember this could you supply the date of the magazine as for c vs c the c can t carry as much but has more capability read can land at smaller airfields of which there are more of than the c now is the c pork it depends on whether your job relies on it or not in california right now i would say that it is not pork since due to peace dividend so many people are out of work the question is whether les aspin and clinton will be able to face down a pork happy congress marc mueller huh shouldn t that read the question is whether a social pork happy les aspin and clinton will be able to face down a jobs pork happy congress fpa
talk.politics.misc	clinton s wiretapping initiative if you look through this newsgroup you should be able to find clinton s proposed wiretapping initiative for our computer networks and telephone systems this initiative has been up before congress for at least the past months in the guise of the fbi wiretapping bill i strongly urge you to begin considering your future i strongly urge you to get your application for a passport in the mail soon i strongly urge you to consider moving any savings you have overseas into protected bank accounts while you are still able
talk.politics.misc	re the state of justice in article apr desire wright edu demon desire wright edu not a boomer writes in article qksa inni m shelley u washington edu tzs stein u washington edu tim smith writes what kind of witnesses if we are talking about witnesses who were at the accident or were otherwise directly involved e g paramedics emergency room doctors etc then they should have been used at the first trial you don t get a new trial because you screwed up and forgot to call all of your witnesses they are two witnesses who didn t come forth until after the first trial while it would be tough luck for gm if they new about these witnesses beforehand imo this constitutes new evidence the test isn t whether gm knew otherwise that would reward gm for its stupidity the test is whether gm reasonably should have known of their existence it works both ways if gm had won the trial and the plaintiff turned up two witnesses who came forward after the first trial who should have been located beforehand too bad so sad no new trial like tim said you don t get a new civil trial because you screwed up the first time around unlike the criminal justice system repose is much more important in the civil justice system ted frank thf kimbark uchicago edu i m sorry the card says moops the u of c law school standard disclaimers
talk.politics.misc	re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in article stevethc js f fn netcom com steveth netcom com steve thomas writes in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu ryan c scharfy writes in article stevethc jgcr ht netcom com steveth netcom com steve thomas wri tes just try to justify the war on drugs i dare you a friend of mine who smoke pot every day and last tuesday took hits of acid is still having trouble aiming for the bowl when he takes a dump don t as me how i just have seen the results boy i really wish we we cut the drug war and have more people screwed up in the head i ll answer you re sarcasm with more sarcasm boy it looks like the wod is working really good to stop people from being screwed up in the head given that example issue your friend got his drugs legal or not legal he ll continue to get them issue why should i as somebody who does not use illegal drugs and who is not screwed up have to pay for this idiot s problems he s not doing anybody any harm except himself the wod on the other hand is an immediate threat to my life and livelyhood tell me why i should sacrafice this to that and not only that but if the drugs were legal we could have pharmacists instead of pushers selling them and the pharmacists could be obligated to not only inform the purchasers of the dangers of drug use but also show them how to use the drugs in relatively safe ways and the dangers of impurities responsible for much of the suffering that drugs cause would be all but eliminated dave borden borden m harvard edu
talk.politics.misc	re nc vs hunt marine gay bashing in wilmington nc verdict tfarrell lynx dac northeastern edu thomas farrell writes so you feel that the defendents should have been convicted regardless of the evidence now that would truely be a sad day for civil rights i don t know about everybody else but to me they should have been convicted because of the evidence which in my mind was quite sufficient what evidence are you aware of what was reported in the media or all of the evidence that was presented at the trial this sounds to me a lot like the first rodney king trial a bunch of people who saw to seconds out of a several minute long video decided that they knew more than people who had sat through a two week trial mob rule isn t any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government it ain t charity if you are using someone else s money wilson s theory of relativity if you go back far enough we re all related mark wilson atlantaga ncr com
talk.politics.misc	re limiting govt was re employment was re why not concentrate steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes let me try to drag this discussion back to the original issues as i ve noted before i m not necessarily disputing the benefits of eliminating anti competitive legislation with regard to auto dealers barbers etc one need not however swallow the entire libertarian agenda to accomplish this end just because one grants the benefits of allowing anyone who wishes to cut hair to sell his her services without regulation does not mean that the same unregulated barbers should be free to bleed people as a medical service without government intervention as some many libertarians would argue on a case by case basis the cost benefit ratio of government regulation is obviously worthwhile the libertarian agenda however does not call for this assessment it assumes that the costs of regulation of any kind always outweigh its benefits this approach avoids all sorts of difficult analysis but it strikes many of the rest of us as dogmatic to say the least i have no objection to an analysis of medical care education national defense or local police that suggests a free market can provide a more effective efficient means of accomplishing social objectives than is provided through statist approaches with some notable exceptions however i do not see such nitty gritty worthwhile analysis being carried out by self professed libertarians excellently put even as a libertarian i have to admit government does do some things i like there is a beautiful performing arts complex in ft lauderdale that was partially built with tax dollars i don t know how much was private and how much was stolen i mean public but it is beautiful and i enjoy it keep in mind though most of the people in the city will never attend a single performance there so they might feel differently about having to help pay for it however i have to disagree about it being desireable or efficient to give government intervention power on a case by case basis in fact we have a lot better luck maintaining our freedom of speech precisely because it is not decided on a case by case basis as much as other issues judges decide whether political speech is allowed on the sidewalk in front of the post office they do not try to decide just whether pro nazi pro choice pro life or pro tax political speech should be allowed on the sidewalk in front of the post office you can imagine the result if right to free speech was decided by the majority on a case by case basis not so with economic issues government does tell taxi drivers exactly what they can charge but not the bus lines or the lawyers just as it is not desireable to decide rights of free speech on a case by case basis we should not decide rights to free enterprise on a case by case basis there is hope that a government can be restricted from interferring with free enterprise but there is no hope in my opinion of having a government that interferes with free enterprise in an efficient manner i call it political market failure thus if you value freedom and the abundance it produces you have to swallow the whole libertarian agenda roger collins
talk.politics.misc	re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in article bb b b dak s vma smsu edu ext dak s vma smsu edu writes you think that you all have it bad here at good ol southwest missouri state u we have parties running for student body president there s the token sorority fraternity faces and then there s the president and vice president of norml they campaigned by handing out condoms and listing their qualifications as i listen really well it makes me sick to have a party established on many of the things that are ruining this country like they are i think i ll run next year well a student body president can t exactly campaign on the stand that he s tough on crime their job is to listen to what people want and fund things that make sense condoms and marijuana aren t exactly the worst things to have available either don
talk.politics.misc	re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu ryan c scharfy writes just try to justify the war on drugs i dare you a friend of mine who smoke pot every day and last tuesday took hits of acid is still having trouble aiming for the bowl when he takes a dump don t as me how i just have seen the results gee the war on drugs has been going on for all these years and they re still getting drugs imagine that my friends who like grass i don t agree but it s pretty harmless are unable to get it yet i know a number of places where someone stupid enough could get crack cocaine within a half hour of leaving my office the war on drugs has been completely unsuccessful yet it s lead to really horrible abuses of peoples constitutional rights i don t see how a thinking person could justify it don
talk.politics.misc	re the role of the national news media in inflaming passions kaldis writes the fact that she was wearing a miniskirt with no underwear was presented as evidence that she was a prostitute and the court apparently found this compelling ah i know women who wear miniskirts without wearing underwear and they are not prostitutes because the judge found that there was some credible evidence that the marines were engaged in self defense got it knucklehead gee both clayton and kaldis engaging in ad hominem arguments i presented evidence that what you said is not what the judge ruled provide your evidence repeating a false claim is not evidence greg hennessy university of virginia usps mail astronomy department charlottesville va usa internet gsh w virginia edu uucp uunet virginia gsh w
talk.politics.misc	re national sales tax the movie in article apr midway uchicago edu shou quads uchicago edu roger colin shouse writes speaking of vat did anyone see cnn s report yesterday it was quite hillarious no pun intended they ran down how a percent tax was added at each stage of manufacturing graphicaly depicting a stack of quarters being added at each wholesale stage when they got to the final stage the actual retail sale the small stack of quarters added to the large stack already there was said to be the amount paid by consumers in other words they completed ignored the fact that at each stage the tax would of course be passed on to the next buyer with the retail consumer paying the full load these are not journalists they re lap dogs one of the commentators on one of the big three news programs described the vat which ain t a sales tax as a tax government s love i was even surprised he got the reason right it effectively hides the majority of the tax the consumer has to pay from the consumer it s kind of like they do with cars you pay far more for automobile taxes than most people realize because it s contained in two dozen different taxes everything from your license to your tires to your gasoline david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes from the santa rosa cal press democrat april p b male sex survey gay activity low a new natonal study on male sexual behavior the most thorough examination of american men s sexual practices published since the kinsey report more than four decades ago shows about percent of the men surveyed had engaged in homosexual sex and percent considered themselves exclusively homosexual actually what the study shows is that percent of the men surveyed said they engaged in homosexual sex and percent said they considered themselves exclusively homosexual the point being that what people say and what they acutally do may be different it is interesting that this clip from the newspaper did not mention that difference maybe it is conservative media bias the figures on homosexuality in the study released wednesday by the alan guttmacher institute are significantly lower than the percent figure that has been part of the conventional wisdom since it was published in the kinsey report russ anderson disclaimer any statements are my own and do not reflect upon my employer or anyone else c ex twins jack morris innings pitched runs world series mvp
talk.politics.misc	re capital gains tax increase loses money in article c j wi igk panix com eck panix com mark eckenwiler writes in apr midway uchicago edu thf midway uchicago edu sez in article apr desire wright edu demon desire wright edu not a boomer writes no i m saying any long term investor the ones likely to have large capital gains would be foolish to sell in order to avoid a tax hike that a might disappear in any given year and b be overcome in a year or two by accumlated gains to which my response is so what not all people who pay capital gains taxes are long term investors more than enough of them aren t for there to be huge blip whenever capital gains taxes get raised i never said that everyone would find this advantageous i said that more than enough would for the result to be readily noticeable and distort trends even if brett s eventual return figures were correct and they clearly weren t he d still be wrong about the cause for the blip because he fails to consider basic factors you misunderstand i m not trying to prove a cause for anything merely pointing out that ted s assertion that the blip in revenues was caused by selling to avoid the tax can t be proven as ted notes not everyone is a long term investor one might find oneself as i did in late anticipating expenses in the near term that require selling off holdings given the choice between waiting a few weeks and taking an extra tax hit or selling in december with preferential tax treatment only a fool would choose the former not disputed the fact that brett can now construct post hoc calculations of what would have been more beneficial to investors is in many respects beside the point there was plenty of money style advice given to unsophisticated investors in late to sell now and save on taxes in case anyone missed it there was no shortage of similar advice late last year in the nytimes e g even though that advice was based not on the foregone conclusion of enacted law as in but merely on the assumption that clinton would raise tax rates without capping cg taxes contrary to the current proposal it works for any situation if you believe the market is going up don t sell if believe it s not sell but then you d be selling anyways wouldn t you so where is the evidence that a large number of people suddenly decided that the higher taxes meant they should sell before the year was out there isn t any ted s saying that the increase over the previous year is proof of that proposition but i m saying you can t know that the trend of increasing capital gains revenues wouldn t account for a lot of that increase was the height of the housing boom remember people were trading up like mad it s nice to think that investors always behave in their optimal economic interest like assuming weightless ropes and frictionless pulleys though this sort of thinking often fails to describe accurately what happens in the real world indeed brett there s nothing so passionate as a vested interest disguised as an intellectual conviction sean o casey in the white plague by frank herbert
talk.politics.misc	clinton caves in reduces jobs bill clinton has backed off from the billion jobs bill word is he s paring it down to the core jobless benefits money for creating full time jobs ie no summer jobs money chalk one up for holding the line on spending brett there s nothing so passionate as a vested interest disguised as an intellectual conviction sean o casey in the white plague by frank herbert
talk.politics.misc	re only month a alan brock orange county register editorial titled a case for repealing the income tax got my attention some quotes a tax on income because of the flexible definition of that concept invites the government to snoop into every nook and cranny of our lives encouraging people to snoop on one another and report transgressions against the almighty state which most americans deplored in nazi or communist regimes although most americans paid no income tax at all years ago withholding began only during world war ii as a temporary exigency and in the median family federal income tax was last year the federal government got only percent of its income from income taxes how long ago was it that the federal government somehow managed to stagger along on percent of its revenue would you believe five the income tax has converted a free people into a society of the fearful and the snitches
talk.politics.misc	re national sales tax the movie in article apr alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca gerald olchowy writes in article aa inet gw pa dec com blh uiboise idbsu edu broward l horne writes well it seems the national sales tax has gotten its very own cnn news logo cool that means we ll be seeing it often man i sure am glad that i quit working or taking this seriously in if i kept busting my ass watching time go by being frustrated i d be pretty damn mad by now i just wish i had the e mail address of total gumby who was saying that clinton didn t propose a nst actually jerry brown essentially did and clinton in his demagogue persona condemned brown for it in the crucial ny primary last year however why don t the republicans get their act together and say they will support a broad based vat that would have to be visible the vat in canada is visible unlike the invisible vats they have in europe and suggest a rate sufficient to halve income and corporate and capital gains tax rates and at a rate sufficient to give the clintons enough revenue for their health care reform the republicans are in general fighting any tax increase there is also worry that a vat would be far too easy to increase incrementally btw what is different between canada s tax and most of europe s that makes it visible and force an agreement with the democrats that the top income tax rate would then be frozen for the forseeable future and could be increased only via a national referendum this would require a constitutional amendment and congress enjoys raising taxes too much to restrict themselves like that besides with the majority necessary to pull that off you d have a difficult time forcing anything like that why not make use of the clintons to do something worthwhile shift the tax burden from investment to consumption and get health care reform and a frozen low top marginal tax rate all in one fell swoop primarily because it s a practical impossibility to freeze tax rates however this is something that bothers me we re always talking about consumer confidence and consumer spending as gauges for the economy if they really are important wouldn t shifting taxes to consumption provide a disincentive to spend money david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
talk.politics.misc	just what is in the jobs pork bill this was in wed wsj start the white house seeking to mount public pressure on gop senators bombarded news outlets in some senator s home states with news releases warning that certain projects may not be funded if the billion stimulus bill isn t passed none of the projects mentioned are actually in the bill rather they are part of a wish list that may be funded from the billion in community development block grants end i could have sworn i heard a bunch of clintonites going on and on raving about how dishonest it was that the rebublicans were taking items from this wish list in order to ridicule this bill now that clinton is using that same list in order to garner support for the bill are you guys going to do the honarable thing and say that clinton is being dishonest mob rule isn t any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government it ain t charity if you are using someone else s money wilson s theory of relativity if you go back far enough we re all related mark wilson atlantaga ncr com
talk.politics.misc	re abolish selective service muellerm vuse vanderbilt edu marc mueller writes considering that clinton received a draft notice and got out of it he admits it the political feasibility of him abolishing it is not something he would be inclined to risk any extra exposure on as a libertarian with a small l who voted for clinton i think that he should abolish the selective service and the draft if his conscience forbade him to go to war in vietnam it should forbid him to perpetuate this system of government sanctioned slavery agreed congress took money from nasa and fha to fund the second seawolf the shipyards are still building los angeles class submarines and there is a lack of asw foes to contend with the navy is considering reducing the number of attack subs to navy times and that would entail getting rid of or mothballing some of the current los angeles class politically general dynamics is in connecticut and we will get seawolf subs whether we need them or not if our government would pay attention to serious domestic issues the economy and choose to stay out of other people s wars iraq bosnia somalia we would not be in this fix an anyway couldn t the jobs be replaced by improving our domestic situation i m not for continued deficit spending but if clinton and congress want to spend i d rather they improve the infrastructure than fight other people s wars in addition more bases need to be closed probably long beach naval station and others the navy is talking about three main bases on each coast being required to home port a total fleet of ships the question is whether les aspin and clinton will be able to face down a pork happy congress a novel idea getting away from naval bases what about refurbishing decommissioned air force bases as airports this would be so much cheaper than building them from the ground up denver s new airport is one of the most appalling examples of pork barreling and cronyism i have seen in my lifetime even if no more airports are needed i m sure bill gates or ross perot would love to have their own private airfields and the money from their purchases could be applied to the public debt jon dunn all e mail flames will be deleted without reading
talk.politics.misc	re pork c c was re abolish selective service in article apr ra msstate edu fpa ra msstate edu fletcher p adams writes muellerm vuse vanderbilt edu marc mueller writes fpa trumpet cc msstate edu fletcher p adams writes eliminate the c transport wrong we need its capability sure it has its problems if you read aviation week the c line can be reopened and the c s would be delivered a year earlier and cost a billion less for the program politically though the c is popular pork i do read av week and don t remember this could you supply the date of the magazine aviation week march p the cbo estimates that matching the capability of c s would require c s at a total cost of billion this option is still more than billion cheaper than completing the c program which the cbo estimates will cost billion sorry i was nine billion off the c s would be ten billion cheaper as for c vs c the c can t carry as much but has more capability read can land at smaller airfields of which there are more of than the c now is the c pork it depends on whether your job relies on it or not in california right now i would say that it is not pork since due to peace dividend so many people are out of work well california voted overwhelmingly for change right the argument to continue military programs just to support jobs is a poor one it s kept quite a few bases open that should have been closed years ago wasting billions of taxes the question is whether les aspin and clinton will be able to face down a pork happy congress marc mueller huh shouldn t that read the question is whether a social pork happy les aspin and clinton will be able to face down a jobs pork happy congress fpa marc mueller
talk.politics.misc	re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in article stevethc js f fn netcom com steveth netcom com steve thomas writes boy it looks like the wod is working really good to stop people from being screwed up in the head given that example issue your friend got his drugs legal or not legal he ll continue to get them issue why should i as somebody who does not use illegal drugs and who is not screwed up have to pay for this idiot s problems he s not doing anybody any harm except himself the wod on the other hand is an immediate threat to my life and livelyhood tell me why i should sacrafice this to that hello is there anybody in there you think you have to pay for this idiot s problem now who s going to pay for the ballooning number of addicts and all of the associated problems with them i don t even want to think about it with hillary in the white house and an administration that feels our pain no harm but to himself what about when he drives his school bus full of kids into a train when he gets stoned and drives up on a sidewalk and kills people when he lives off me on welfare for the rest of his life the problem with the wod is that it has no bite sending the slimy bastards to the chair for selling drugs to kids now there s some bit
talk.politics.misc	re california insurance commissioner endorses federal legislation to protect consumers from scam insurance companies in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes you mean since your philosophy took over the economy has almost collapsed excuse me my philosophy you don t have any idea what my philosophy is the american economy has had its ups and downs through a number of prevailing economic philosophies but then economics is hardly a science in my lifetime your philosophy socialism masquerading as a liberal welfare state has been in ascendancy yo earth to clayton my philosophy i have never discussed this with you i know it s a minor point but gee dude you have no idea what economic and political principles i adhere to but don t let that stop you you re on a roll just ascribe to me whatever you want i know you ll choose wisely after all i do believe in personal responsibility no i mean exactly what i wrote the welfare system of the new deal is wholly inadequate to cope with the current state of affairs absolutely so the response of socialists is take us even further into socialism duh what else would you expect a socialist to do flash in the pan no your subculture has utterly dominated the tv and movie industries for two decades now my subculture my we re getting personal the only subculture i see dominating the tv and movie industries is money if you ll buy it they ll sell it and as recent movements to boycott tv advertisers have shown they re very sensitive about what sells whatever happened to personal responsibility anyway or am i personally responsible for the decline in that too to the extent that people have been encouraged to not be responsible for themselves yes a just when and where have i encouraged people not to be responsible for themselves be specific but do make up random dates and heinous acts as you see fit b you and i have encouraged many people to do many things how does that in any way make our audiences less responsible for their actions is there a finite amount of responsibility so cf conservation of energy as i become more responsible for an occurrence by encouraging it the actual perpetrator becomes correspondingly less so at what point does the perpetrator become completely innocent altogether you know this lends a whole new meaning to the term the moral high ground oddly enough all the unskilled or semiskilled people i know manage to find employment almost immediately maybe she needs to move to a cheaper part of the country where jobs are plentiful and the cost of living is lower the west side of chicago is about as cheap as it gets squalor city tell me about all these places where it s cheap to live and jobs are abundant i ll pass them on sonoma county i will pass the info on out of curiosity what kind of jobs would these be what s the demographic mix wrt race age culture lots of employment and utterly surrounded by socialists well i suppose that s the sort of environment that would attract socialists or at least not dissuade them no it s that areas with a lot of wealthy breed socialists all the spoiled rich kids feeling guilty about their wealth but not guilty enough to give it away they just look for politicians to take my more limited wealth away life s a bitch ain t it man you ve got to get out of fornicalia have you considered someplace perhaps geographically distant but politically more friendly to you like say indiana or maybe utah well i doubt that much of this goes to drugs there isn t much left after buying food and there is very little in the first place sure you read about such cases now and then but that s what makes them news show me your statistics about afdc abuse i can tell you that relatives i have known the drugs came first the food was secondary i don t doubt it but unless you can show me statistics to the contrary i will persist in my apparently dogmatic socialist belief hey if you say so that most afdc money really does for better or worse in the long term feed fdcs ken perlow apr germinal an cci gadfly ihspc att com l audace toujours de l audace encore de l audace
talk.politics.misc	re top ten ways slick willie could improve his standing with americans in article mwalker mwalker npd provo novell com mwalker novell com mel walker writes copyright c edward a ipser jr this means we can t quote ed without his permission no using these lists in your sigs folks oh darn okay okay let s stop slamming ipser and get on with making fun of other people alan
talk.politics.misc	re will italy be the next domino to fall hagenjd wfu edu jeff hagen writes a good two party system will bring italy efficient accountable government yeah just like we have here in the us walter g rolandi usenet rolandi andy hssc scarolina edu internet rolandi hsscls hssc scarolina edu
talk.politics.misc	re we re winning the war on drugs not kennejs a cs okstate edu kennedy james scot writes the chart that follows was taken from the wednesday april issue of usa today drug use up among u s eigth graders by mike snider p d adolescents choices drugs used by eighth graders in the last month estimated per students pct chg alcohol cigarettes marijuana amphetamines lsd cocaine crack source university of michigan institute for social research report we are not winning the war on drugs i think you can see that one of the tactics that the dea employs to give people the impression that the war on drugs is being won is to selectively quote statistics only statistics that support their contention that drug use has gone down the excerpt from time magazine that i included in this post is an excellent example of how organizations like the dea attempt to deceive the public unfortunately there s not much we can learn from the statistics presented here either due to rounding the est for lsd could be anywhere from to and the est could be anywhere from to this means that the actual change if you believe these statistics in the first place was anywhere from to similarly the increase in cocaine use could be anywhere from to and the increase of crack use could be anywhere from to this doesn t even take into account the margin of error which isn t provided here this does not mean that the rest of the argument you present is unfounded but it does mean that usa today has not surprisingly provided us with virtually no information
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage clayton cramer writes compared to the table i have already posted from masters johnson and kolodny showing male homosexual partners it is apparent that homosexual men are dramatically more promiscuous than the general male population did you ever consider the selection effect that those who are willing to admit to being a member sexual minority homosexuality are more willing to admit to being a member of another sexual minority highly promiscious i didn t think that you did greg hennessy university of virginia usps mail astronomy department charlottesville va usa internet gsh w virginia edu uucp uunet virginia gsh w
talk.politics.misc	re clinton s wiretapping initiative in article aa inet gw pa dec com blh uiboise idbsu edu broward l horne writes if you look through this newsgroup you should be able to find clinton s proposed wiretapping initiative for our computer networks and telephone systems this initiative has been up before congress for at least the past months in the guise of the fbi wiretapping bill what kind of brainless clod posted the above garbage would they be so kind as to explain how this is clinton s initiative when it has been before congress for at least the past months jeez the next thing you know they ll be blaming the weather on the poor guy they ll be blaming world war ii on him they ll be blaming the civil war on him maybe the thirty years war
talk.politics.misc	re bill targets pension funds for liberation excerpts from insight magazine march paranoia part deleted isn t insight magazine published by the mooneys
talk.politics.misc	re how many homosexuals are there kaldis romulus rutgers edu theodore a kaldis writes perhaps but most likely not more than a new study discrediting kinsey says so the views expressed herein are theodore a kaldis my own only do you seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe that a major university rutgers remus rutgers edu kaldis as this would hold such views my understanding from my psycology classes is that the percentage is more like world wide i would really like to know your source for the figure riyadh moosa sdsu chemistry cosc ucssun sdsu edu
talk.politics.misc	re the tories could win the lottery clinton gst in article apr umr edu ckincy cs umr edu charles kincy w rites in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu ryan c scharfy writes this country is hardly ruined in fact it is booming compared to after the election this whole usa has gone to hell and reagan bush caused it is not only lame pathetic and old it s wrong under reagan bush the economy grew by trillion dollars this is more tha n the entire economy of germany a kind gentle country in many peoples books what a joke drive down to cincinnati and take a look not pretty is it but drive up to cleveland and it is about times better i from toledo originally but that place always as sucked as long as i ve been on the planet things were much better there in all that growth went into the hands of ron and georgie s pals and i didn t get a single dime of it dammit and now i m gonna be bled to death by tax leeches to pay for the damage f ing great republicans have been trying to pass a balanced budget amendment for the last ten years oh here s another thing seems like a lot of people in columbus drive over to marysville and make japanese cars hm because for a while the american companies couln t even compete in their own country where free trade isn t even an issue however even the automobile pendelum has swung back to the big i wonder how many american owned companies employ those in central ohio other than ohio state university oh i don t know it s probably in the tens of thousands ryan
talk.politics.misc	re clinton caves in reduces jobs bill in article apr desire wright edu demon desire wright edu not a boomer writes clinton has backed off from the billion jobs bill word is he s paring it down to the core jobless benefits money for creating full time jobs ie no summer jobs money chalk one up for holding the line on spending it seems radio reports were overly optimistic all clinton wants to cut is billion for community block grants keeping in summer jobs hmmm well looks like we need to keep up the pressure on our congresspersons brett there s nothing so passionate as a vested interest disguised as an intellectual conviction sean o casey in the white plague by frank herbert
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article c k lc cyf murdoch acc virginia edu lfoard hopper virginia edu la wrence c foard writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes from the santa rosa cal press democrat april p b male sex survey gay activity low a new natonal study on male sexual behavior the most thorough examination of american men s sexual practices published since the kinsey report more than four decades ago shows about percent of the men surveyed had engaged in homosexual sex and percent considered themselves exclusively homosexual the figures on homosexuality in the study released wednesday by the alan guttmacher institute are significantly lower than the percent figure that has been part of the conventional wisdom since it was published in the kinsey report so what so there are less gays then the gays claim it will be interesting to see the reaction when million queers gather in washington dc after all if there are only million of us then this is an event unprecidented in history dream on abortion and african american civil rights rallies don t even bring in half of that the article also contains numbers on the number of sexual partners the median number of sexual partners for all men was don t forget that had or more partners i was wondering why i wasn t getting laid compared to the table i have already posted from masters johnson and kolodny showing male homosexual partners it is apparent that homosexual men are dramatically more promiscuous than the general male population and what did this study show for number of sexual contacts for those who said they where homosexual or is that number to inconvient for you if it s more then who cares it s a shame that we don t have a breakdown for straight men vs gay bi men that would show even more dramatically how much more promiscuous gay bi men are fuck off actually i bet you more gay bi men are as not as promiscuous as gay men because more of them could have the option of living a straight life and with social pressures probably would at least try join the pythagorean reform church repent of your evil irrational numbers and bean eating ways accept into your heart call the pythagorean reform church bbs at did you know that is is a fact that homosexuality was comparatively high in hitler s storm troopers sa before he came to power i wonder if they got to put the triangles on themselves ryan
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage the article also contains numbers on the number of sexual partners the median number of sexual partners for all men was compared to the table i have already posted from masters johnson and kolodny showing male homosexual partners it is apparent that homosexual men are dramatically more promiscuous than the general male population it s a shame that we don t have a breakdown for straight men vs gay bi men that would show even more dramatically how much more promiscuous gay bi men are isn t is funny how someone who seems to know nothing about homosexuality uses a very flawed imho source of information to pass jusgement on all homosexual and bisexual men only the most comprehensive survey on sexuality in years it would seem more logical to say that since the heterosexual group of men is larger then the chances of promiscuity larger as well in my opinion orientation has nothing to do with it chance and size have nothing in common on the multimillion number scale we are talking about men are men and they all like sex i am a gay male i have had sex three times in my life all with the same man before that i was a virgin so whose promiscuous nobody said that you were chill just because someone is gay doesn t mean they have no morals just because someone is heterosexual doesn t mean they do look at the world well said statistics alone prove that most criminals are by default hetero actually the kinsley report in or used a high percentage of prisoners so ryan
talk.politics.misc	re just what is in the jobs pork bill in article c l um isf ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com mark wilson writes this was in wed wsj start the white house seeking to mount public pressure on gop senators bombarded news outlets in some senator s home states with news releases warning that certain projects may not be funded if the billion stimulus bill isn t passed none of the projects mentioned are actually in the bill rather they are part of a wish list that may be funded from the billion in community development block grants end i could have sworn i heard a bunch of clintonites going on and on raving about how dishonest it was that the rebublicans were taking items from this wish list in order to ridicule this bill now that clinton is using that same list in order to garner support for the bill are you guys going to do the honorable thing and say that clinton is being dishonest as one of the clintonites cited above i ll try to clarify since this is not a case of clinton s dishonesty i won t necessarily defend him on other issues there were never any specific projects included in the community development block grant portion of the president s proposal congressional republicans in an effort to discredit the stimulus package selected what they felt were silly sounding projects from a wish list of potential projects prepared by the us mayors conference before the stimulus package was ever proposed the document in question was designed to pressure the white house to increase the size of the block grant proposal submitted to congress it didn t work the billion proposed in the stimulus package came nowhere close to covering the total estimated cost of the original wish list if it were passed communities would have to select which projects to fund and at what level in the case of spokane wa tom foley s home district no one ever expected to be able to refurbish a local swimming pool one of the republicans examples from the funds available in the stimulus package since the estimated cost of doing so exceeded the total amount of block grant funds the city would receive from the stimulus package for all projects the plan instead was to use the money on public housing construction and remodeling to cope with a severe housing shortage yup there are places where that is true the swimming pool improvements were near the bottom of a long list of priorities prepared by the city the million or so to be received would cover only a few of the most pressing priorities if the block grants are cut from the stimulus package it is these projects that will be affected by the lack of funds and that is why the clinton administration has been publicizing the issue a final point one may or may not like community block grants it is worth noting however that congressional republicans opposition to them is new since the nixon administration republicans have generally supported such grants as an alternative to targeted federal spending arguing that local governments are far better able to determine spending priorities than washington bureaucrats is it clear now or is this all too complicated to understand jsh steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing about data it sure does cut uucp uunet isc br thor steveh the bulls t r hofferbert ma bell
talk.politics.misc	re how many homosexuals are there in article qmtl r gondor sdsu edu cosc ucssun sdsu edu riyadh al ha jmoosa writes kaldis romulus rutgers edu theodore a kaldis writes perhaps but most likely not more than a new study discrediting kinsey says so the views expressed herein are theodore a kaldis my own only do you seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe that a major university rutgers remus rutgers edu kaldis as this would hold such views my understanding from my psycology classes is that the percentage is more like world wide i would really like to know your source for the figure riyadh moosa sdsu chemistry cosc ucssun sdsu edu some survey conducted by the u s government and some group i don t know which did what they were calling on all the news shows this morning the most comprehensive survey of sexuality in the past years not an exact quote but you get the idea this low percentage is merely one more in a ton of evidence disproving the theory ryan
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article apr hemlock cray com rja mahogany cray com russ anderson writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes from the santa rosa cal press democrat april p b male sex survey gay activity low a new natonal study on male sexual behavior the most thorough examination of american men s sexual practices published since the kinsey report more than four decades ago shows about percent of the men surveyed had engaged in homosexual sex and percent considered themselves exclusively homosexual actually what the study shows is that percent of the men surveyed said they engaged in homosexual sex and percent said they considered themselves exclusively homosexual yes and of course the kinsey report taken years ago in much more liberal times regarding homosexuality the point being that what people say and what they acutally do may be different it is interesting that this clip from the newspaper did not mention that difference maybe it is conservative media bias or smart enough to realize that that argument would have to apply to every survey regarding homosexuality therefore they would look stupid actually idid see bryant gumble bring that point up hee hee the figures on homosexuality in the study released wednesday by the alan guttmacher institute are significantly lower than the percent figure that has been part of the conventional wisdom since it was published in the kinsey report ryan
talk.politics.misc	a rational viewpoint was re new study out on gay percentage in article c l v jcv news cso uiuc edu dans uxa cso uiuc edu dan s writes don t forget about the culture sadly we don t as a society look upon homosexuality as normal and as we are all too well aware there are alot of people who condemn it as a result the gay population is not encouraged to develop non promiscuous relationships in fact there are many roadblocks put in the way of such committed relationships it is as if the heterosexual community puts these blocks there so as to perpetuate the claim that gays are immoral my if we allowed gays to marry raise children we might just find out they re as moral as we are can t have that can we just some thoughts flame away dan this is a very good point one that i have held for sometime we do not allow people to develop on the paths that they choose or desire even with heterosexuals we tend to leave some hanging in the sense of knowledge and information about sexuality and relationships it is very difficult for a young person to develop and build a positive view of themself when they are constantly being told implicitly and explicitly that they are wrong and immoral the concepts about personal relationships are deeply embedded in emotionalism and fear these fears cover a wide range but mostly jealousy and lack of trust seem to be cornerstones of modern day american relationships we also set on top of this the concepts of madison avenue attractiveness and standards and put the pressure on to measure up
talk.politics.misc	pat robertson says in response to a report by cbn news correspondent ken lormond about a meeting between slick willie and homosexual activists lormond but clinton will not be attending a rally by homosexuals in washington later this month he will instead be out of town on a retreat with senate democrats robertson yeah he d better retreat laughter followed by sustained applause later in a report by correspondent deborah whitsen on the fizzling boycott instigated by homosexuals against colorado whitsen colorado ski resorts have seen record crowds this year despite a call by homosexual activists for boycott of the state there have been record snowfalls in the mountains this year and the skiers have been coming in droves robertson and god said let it snow more sustained applause the views expressed herein are theodore a kaldis my own only do you seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe that a major university rutgers remus rutgers edu kaldis as this would hold such views
talk.politics.misc	new guess out on gay percentage in article c la bwq murdoch acc virginia edu gsh w fermi clas virginia edu greg hennessy writes clayton cramer writes compared to the table i have already posted from masters johnson and kolodny showing male homosexual partners it is apparent that homosexual men are dramatically more promiscuous than the general male population did you ever consider the selection effect that those who are willing to admit to being a member sexual minority homosexuality are more willing to admit to being a member of another sexual minority highly promiscious i didn t think that you did greg hennessy university of virginia it is obvious that mr cramer has the ability to take the leap of faith i have listened to several of the men involved in this study and even they claim that the men involved will not tell the whole truth i put little value in extrapolating from these types of studies or surveys they have limited subsets of individuals and there is alot of skewing due to improper selection methods and the bias of the people involved in the studies on both sides subject and researcher would you admit to be part of a group that was not very well liked would you admit to having had sex with other people at some considered abnormal rate this applies to heterosexual men in fact as one gay man and one straight man put it men lie about the number of partners because that s the thing to do our culture for the male almost requires this type of response it may seem harmless and silly but carries a large emotional and mental price tag i hear college male students everyday talking about their supposed conquest they just have to look good to one another at least in their eyes but also know that alot of this does go on there are many college males hetero having a lot of sex with different partners
talk.politics.misc	re new study out on gay percentage in article c la bwq murdoch acc virginia edu gsh w fermi clas virginia edu greg hennessy writes clayton cramer writes compared to the table i have already posted from masters johnson and kolodny showing male homosexual partners it is apparent that homosexual men are dramatically more promiscuous than the general male population did you ever consider the selection effect that those who are willing to admit to being a member sexual minority homosexuality are more willing to admit to being a member of another sexual minority highly promiscious oh yeah and men just haaaaate to brag about how many woman they ve had ryan
talk.politics.misc	re the state of justice in apr desire wright edu demon desire wright edu sez a judge denied gm s new trial motion even though gm says it has two new witnesses that said the occupant of the truck was dead from the impact not from the fire thoughts it s kind of scary when you realize that judges are going to start denying new trials even when new evidence that contradicts the facts that led to the previous ruling appear there s this minor thing called interest of finality repose what it means is that parties aren t dragged into court over and over again because the losing side discovers some new evidence i don t know about you brett but i suspect gm had the resources to find just about as many expert and fact witnesses as it wanted before the trial started letting them re open the case now is practically an invitation to every civil litigant on earth to keep an ace in the hole in case the verdict goes against him btw in federal criminal cases rule does permit a motion for a new trial based on newly discovered evidence if made within years of the verdict emphasis mine if you re trying to make a backhanded point about criminal justice in a discussion that has little to do with criminal trials as the estimable david brock did in his amusing wsj piece last week save your breath or has the judge decided that the new witnesses are not to be believed shouldn t that be up to a jury yup which is why they shoulda been brought around the first time through and what about members of the previous jury parading through the talk shows proclaiming their obvious bias against gm shouldn t that be enough for a judge to through out the old verdict and call for a new trial whatever happened to jurors having to be objective unless there s some reason to believe that this supposed bias predated the trial as opposed to being a product of it and that gm was unfairly prevented from discovering it by venireman concealment or otherwise why should gm be allowed to complain moral always choose the right sort of parents before you start in to be rough george ade mark eckenwiler eck panix com cmcl panix eck
talk.politics.misc	re the state of justice in article apr hemlock cray com rja mahogany cray com russ anderson writes there s a guy on death row in texas that was denied a new trial dispite evidence of his inocents i recommend the book adams v texas the story of a man adams who was sentenced to death for a crime he didn t commit most of the book is the story of the long appeals process and the problems and delays caused by not being able to introduce new evidence in certain courts john carr jfc athena mit edu
talk.politics.misc	re good neighbor political hypocrisy test in article c l rp ebm news iastate edu jrbeach iastate edu jeffry r beach writes in article apr gordian com mike gordian com michael a thomas writes i really don t want to waste time in here to do battle about the legalization of drugs if you really want to we can get into it and prove just how idiotic that idea is read i do not know what the fuck i m talking about and am not eager to make a fool of myself oh you foolish person i do know what the fuck i m talking about and will gladly demonstrate for such ignorants as yourself if you wish the legalization of drugs will provide few if any of the benefits so highly taunted by its proponents safer cheaper drugs along with revenues from taxes on those drugs reduced crime and reduced organized crime specifically etc etc ahhh the classic truth by blatant assertion technique too bad it s so demonstrably false take a look at great britain sometime for a nice history on drug criminalization the evidence there shows that during periods of time when drugs such as heroin were illegal crime went up and people did die from bad drugs during times when drugs were legalized those trends were reversed if you would like to prove how clueless you are we can get into why again a lot of wasted posts that i don t think this group was intended for and something easily solved by you doing a little research now this is a great example of an ironclad proof gosh i m convinced for the humor impaired first assert something for which you have no evidence then dodge requests for proof by claiming to know what this group was intended for as to research if you d done any at all you d realize that there is plenty of reason to believe that legalizing drugs will have many benefits to society there are some plausible arguments against it too but they aren t enough to convince me that criminalization of drugs is the answer i m willing to be convinced i m wrong but i seriously doubt the likes of you can do it dale cook any town having more churches than bars has a serious social problem edward abbey the opinions are mine only i e they are not my employer s
talk.politics.misc	re the state of justice in article qn ainnmq senator bedfellow mit edu jfc athena mit edu john f carr writes i recommend the book adams v texas the story of a man adams who was sentenced to death for a crime he didn t commit most of the book is the story of the long appeals process and the problems and delays caused by not being able to introduce new evidence in certain courts and i recommend the movie the thin blue line which is about the same case not as much legal detail but still an excellent film it shows how very easy it is to come up with seemingly conclusive evidence against someone whom you think is guilty matthew austern maybe we can eventually make language a matt physics berkeley edu complete impediment to understanding
talk.politics.misc	bush s wi was clinton s wiretapping initiative in article aa inet gw pa dec com blh uiboise idbsu edu broward l horne writes if you look through this newsgroup you should be able to find clinton s proposed wiretapping initiative for our computer networks and telephone systems this initiative has been up before congress for at least the past months in the guise of the fbi wiretapping bill i guess your strength isn t in math clinton hasn t been president for months in other words it s bush s wiretapping initiative i strongly urge you to begin considering your future i strongly urge you to get your application for a passport in the mail soon i strongly urge you to consider moving any savings you have overseas into protected bank accounts while you are still able have you who said anything about panicking snapped authur garrett johnson this is still just culture shock you wait till i ve garrett ingres com settled into the situation and found my bearings then i ll start panicking douglas adams
talk.politics.misc	re national sales tax the movie in article veal utkvm utk edu veal utkvm utk edu david veal writes in article apr alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca gerald olchowy writes in article aa inet gw pa dec com blh uiboise idbsu edu broward l horne writes why don t the republicans get their act together and say they will support a broad based vat that would have to be visible the vat in canada is visible unlike the invisible vats they have in europe and suggest a rate sufficient to halve income and corporate and capital gains tax rates and at a rate sufficient to give the clintons enough revenue for their health care reform the republicans are in general fighting any tax increase there is also worry that a vat would be far too easy to increase incrementally i was a graduate student in the early s and we had a conference on reaganomics where jerry jordan then a member of the council of economic advisors was a speaker i had the pleasure of driving him back to the airport afterwards and since taxes were the main topic of discussion i thought i would ask him about the vat i have favored it for these reasons you mention that the income base is too hazy to define that it taxes savings and investment that it is likely to be more visible he agreed and reported that the cea at that time was in favor of vat so why not propose it i asked he replied that the reagan white house feared that the democrats would introduce vat in addition to the income tax rather than in lieu better not to give them any ideas he said pretty prescient btw what is different between canada s tax and most of europe s that makes it visible yes any canadian readers please tell us if the tax is displayed on price stickers i m relatively certain it is not in europe king sparky banaian it s almost as though young kbanaian pitzer claremont edu white guys get up in the dept of economics pitzer college morning and have a big smile latest gdp forecast on their face because you know homer wrote the iliad d souza
talk.religion.misc	re religion and homosexuality magarret magnus acs ohio state edu computer dudette writes i just recently realized that i am bisexual and also just recently returned to religion and have a good friend who has pointed out to me that homosexuality is a sin in the bible well i don t see how it could be considered a sin first of all as far as i know only male homosexuality is explicitly mentioned in the bibles so you re off the hook there i think in any event there are plenty of people in many denominations who do not consider a person s sexual identification of gay lesbian bisexual as an immoral lifestyle choice also i have always been a somewhat liberal feminist and am pro choice and it seems that being pro choice and being religious don t mix either i am told this is another misconception you are not being told the whole story my former minister is a lesbian and i know personally and professionally several openly gay and lesbian ministers i am a unitarian universalist and like most others in my denomination am pro choice you needn t go looking to the unitarian universalists which is a liberal religion for acceptance of your sexual identification and pro choice views however there are many of us who believe in spirituality and freedom of conscience good luck on your journey daniel o connell meadville lombard theological school university of chicago divinity school dsoconne uchicago edu
talk.religion.misc	re apr god s promise in psalm in article c kdr duz acsu buffalo edu psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu robert weiss writes i will hear what god the lord will speak for he will speak peace unto his people and to his saints but let them not turn again to folly psalm jps for the leader of the korahites a psalm o lord you will favor your land restore jacob s fortune you will forgive your people s iniquity pardon all their sins selah you will withdraw all your anger turn away from your rage turn again o god our helper revoke your displeasure with us will you be angry with us forever prolong your wrath for all generations surely you will revive us again so that your people may rejoice in you show us o lord your faithfulness grant us your deliverance let me hear what god the lord will speak he will promise well being to his people his faithful ones may they not turn to folly his help is very near those who fear him to make his glory dwell in our land faithfulness and truth meet justice and well being kiss truth springs up from the earth justice looks down from heaven the lord also bestows his bounty our land yields its produce justice goes before him as he sets out on his way
talk.religion.misc	re spreading christianity re christian extremist kills doctor not to be too snide about it but i think this christianity must be a very convenient religion very maliable and suitable for any occassion since it seems one can take it any way one wants to go with it and follow whichever bits one pleases and reinterpret the bits that don t match with one s desires it is in fact so convenient that were i capable of believing in a god i might consider going for some brand of christianity the only difficulty left then of course is picking which sect to join there are just so many dean kaflowitz yes christianity is convenient following the teachings of jesus christ and the ten commandments is convenient trying to love in a hateful world is convenient turning the other cheek is convenient so convenient that it is burdensome at times dave there are many here among us who feel that life is but a joke bob dylan never let school interfere with your education mark twain rumors of my death have been greatly exaggerated mark twain tact is getting your point across without stabbing someone with it subtlety is saying what you mean then getting out of the way before it is understood if you were happy every day of your life you wouldn t be a human being you d be a game show host taken from the movie heathers
talk.religion.misc	re food for thought on tyre af yfn ysu edu frank decenso jr writes pps am i giving you too many clues too many clues not enough substance you ask a lot of good questions though but they are questions you should be worried about not me i m not the inerrantist here let me know when you are ready to get serious dj
talk.religion.misc	re christian daemons biblical demons the update in article apr sradzy uucp radzy sradzy uucp t o radzykewycz writes swaim owlnet rice edu michael parks swaim writes the file permission of the beast radzy sradzy uucp t o radzykewycz writes sorry but the file permission of the beast is and the file permission of the home directory of the beast is boylan sltg ljo dec com steve boylan writes hey radzy it must depend on your system s access policy i get ls lg usr users total drwxrwxrwx beast system jan beast drwxr x x boylan users mar boylan drwxr xr x guest users sep guest su password root su beast beast umask beast d root d just a minute grep beast etc passwd beast k tuk rauogq not walt disney usr users beast mv usr users beast profile usr users beast profile echo umask usr users beast profile cat usr users beast profile chmod usr users beast mv mailrc mailrc echo beast logged in mail radzy sradzy jack sns com mv mailrc mailrc mv usr users beast profile usr users beast profile d chmod usr users beast profile cat usr users beast profile usr users beast profile waits a while finally gets mail i think you made a mistake check it again i see you re not running ultrix steve don t miss the th new england folk festival april in natick massachusetts
talk.religion.misc	christian devil revealed for a while i was puzzled by the the concept of adam and eve coming to know good and evil this is how i resolved it within god s universe each action evokes an equal and opposite reaction there can be no good without evil as an opposite so the issue is not what you do but to whom you give your allegiance that is why even in this sinful state when we perform an evil act while we are submitted to god he does not place that sinful act to our account rom in the same vein you can perform all the good deeds in the book if your life is not under god s control you are still sinning see rom now take a good look at at an tell me man there is no christian devil there is is real is a virus a meme infecting and possessing the good people and keep em from becoming human beings with emphasis on the being is not a matter of good people an evil people is all good people see but some good people vexed of the christian devil an it can t be burn out or lynch out or rape out only wise up let i rise up christian devil is real man how else can you explain five hundred years of history even more can only be explained by christians invoke christian devil you keep on knocking but you can t come in i got to understand you ve been living in sin but walk right in and sit right down i ll keep on loving you i ll play the clown but bend down low let i tell you what i know yah i ve been buked brothers and i ve been stoned woe woe woe now i m hung by a tree in the the ganging on a few woe woe woe it doesn t matter who the man is who lives the life he loves it doesn t matter what the man does or the honest life he loves i want somewhere i want somewhere hallelujah hallelujah somewhere to lay my head woe is me only ska beat in eaven man stiff necked fools you think you re cool to deny me for simplicity yes you have gone for so long with your love for vanity now yes you have got the wrong interpretation mixed up with vain imagination so take jah sun and jah moon and jah rain and jah stars and forever yes erase your fantasy yeah the lips of the righteous teach many but fools die for want of wisdom the rich man s wealth is in his city the righteous wealth is in his holy place so take jah sun and jah moon and jah rain and jah stars and forever yes erase your fantasy destruction of the poor is in their poverty destruction of the soul is vanity yeah but i don t want to rule ya i don t want to fool ya i don t want to school ya things you you might never know about yes you have got the wrong interpretation mixed up with vain vain imagination stiff necked fools you think you re cool to deny me for oh simplicity love to see when yah move in the rhythm love to see when you re dancing from within it gives great joy to feel such sweet togetherness everyone s doing and they re doing their best it remind i of the days in jericho when we trodden down jericho wall these are the days when we ll trod true babylon gonna trod until babylon fall then i saw the angel with the seven seals saying babylon throne going down we weeping and we wailing tonight
talk.religion.misc	re imaginary friends dragons mice he sounds really cute morte kinds like pete s dragon maybe smaller maybe a different species winge d shakespear wing ed i ve always hat a horde of mice to turn to for fun sort of that kind of mouse in cinderella walt disney i grew up sort of as an only child part time my siblings were years older than me so i was pretty commonly a different sort of charater in their games read non speaking hot cocoa goffer stand in still silent bad guy good guy etc so my mice were playmates more than advisors could curt or whomever has a good list of books please post such list in all sorts of fields like jungian condensed buddist etc philosophies multiple personailty disorders or good fiction that has well worked imaginary friends thanks sheilagh wanting a bunch of library catalouge topics to search thru
talk.religion.misc	re the list of biblical contradictions in article blue cis pitt edu joslin pogo isp pitt edu david joslin writes many good points deleted anyone who missed it should see the original lists like this that just toss a bunch of quotes together to make a bible verse salad just don t cut it those of us who want to argue against inerrancy should find this sort of thing as embarassing as the fundies should find josh mcdowell true except that i ve known few fundies who had enough sense to be embarrassed by josh mcdowell okay maybe a cheap shot but i m in that kind of mood bill mayne
talk.religion.misc	re the list of biblical contradictions someone posted a list of x number of alleged bible contradictions as joslin said most people do value quantity over quality dave butler posted some good quality alleged contradictions that are taking a long time to properly exegete if you want a good list quantity when critics ask a popular handbook on bible difficulties by dr norman geisler deals with over alleged contradictions frank if one wished to contend with him he could not answer him one time out of a thousand job
talk.religion.misc	david koresh messianic cult hello i just read my first newspaper in a while and noticed an article on a messianic cult leader named david koresh i d like to know more about this and what is going on with them please email me as i don t normally read this newsgroup thanks thyagi houseofkaos abyss com
talk.religion.misc	re cannibalism was albert sabin in article zxmkr studserv zxmkr studserv zdv uni tuebingen de c ornelius krasel writes in f q yuc quack kfu com pharvey quack kfu com paul harvey writes in article pk d q access digex net huston access digex com herb huston writes in article f n ep quack kfu com pharvey quack kfu com paul harvey writes do you have any examples of ritual cannibalism particulary amongst the primates why the ritual qualifier i was thinking of instances were a particular food or foods or drinks are used to symbolize or ritualize cannibalism do you know of any human cultures that have this type of mythology for example where one might eat a food as representative of the body of a god thus ritualized cannibalism in the absence of the original i know of ritual cannibalism among tribes in papua neuguinea they used to eat the brain of killed opponents sometimes these brains contained infectious agents which lead to a disease called kuru since cannibalism was banished by the government the number of kuru cases has dropped sharply oh yeah well i know of anyways cannibalism is much more commmon than those who feel that it is wrong and then point out that the fact that western civilisation doesn t do it is proof positive that we are more advanced would have us believe cannibalism is often used in funeral ceremonies as a way of keeping the deceased loved one alive many other cultures including many american indian cultures eat ate the flesh of slain enemies often as a way of showing respect for the valor of the departed hearts are often favored for this as it contains the spirit have you ever read or seen alive which is the story of the argentinian boys soccer team that crashed in the andes and then ate the bodies of those who died in order to survive finger lickin good how about the twighlight zone episode to serve man if you want more info on this a good place to start is on sci anthropology now send me and eat my flesh dan lovall physics purdue edu
talk.religion.misc	re the number of the beast viewer discr in article c j k d rice edu swaim owlnet rice edu michael parks swaim said posted on mar at by michael parks swaim in article c him brf cs psu edu jdh math psu edu jeremy d hall writes well i will do the math and i get this mean anything to anyone thus fitting in neatly with something else and everything under the sun is in tune what was jabba the nd the sun is eclipsed by the moon hut smoking pink floyd alex eclipse curious
talk.religion.misc	zoroastrianism san jose merc news article zoroastrianism san jose ca usa monday april san jose mercury news page reproduced without permission year tradition still glows assimilation in u s threatens ancient zoroastrian religion by jeanne huber mercury news staff writer high on a hillside above san jose flames leap up hours a day from a gleaming brass urn in a temple one of only four in the united states dedicated to one of the world s most ancient religions with the flames go the prayers of about bay area zoroastrians that their faith will survive this land there is a fear a real fear too said silloo tarapore of lafayette we have one generation to do it or to die many immigrant groups struggle to maintain an identity in a strange land but for zoroastrians it is an especially poignant concern their religion has been around for perhaps years a heritage so deep it scarcely seems comprehensible in a state where historical sites are sometimes less than years old it was the religion of the great persian empire under kings cyrus and darius and tradition says that when christ was born about years later he was honored by a visit from three zoroastrian priests the magi scholars say many key beliefs of christians jews and muslims can be traced to the teachings of zoroaster the zoroastrian prophet yet with only about zoroastrians in the entire world they are a miniscule minority in every country in which they live survival as a people is very much on their minds ironically local zoroastrians fear that the almost unlimited tolerance of the united states may do what hundreds of years of persecution followed by nearly years of benign religious segregation could not do cause their young people to stop thinking of themselves as zoroastrians zoroastrians do not believe theirs is the only right religion and they actually shun the notion of trying to win converts so if their children become totally assimilated they say it s their children rather than the world at large who will be the losers it s important to have an identity said maneck bhujwaia of san jose a leader among zoroastrians who came here from india it s important for everybody irish scottish americans it gives meaning to life you don t have to depend on the majority community to give you respect you can fall back on your own identity for zoroastrians there s much to be proud of their prophet zoroaster seeking to make sense of a culture in which animal sacrifice to multiple gods was common preached that there was only one god a good one zoroastrians call their god ahura mazda which translates as lord of wisdom and light good vs evil zoroaster saw life as a constant struggle between good and evil with the good eventually winning men and women could join in the battle for good he said and he warned that they would inevitably suffer consequences such as shame and sorrow if they did wrong he preached honesty charity kindness to animals respect for the environment hard work equality of men and women basic virtues preached by prophets of many religions but zoroaster was perhaps unusual in that he told his followers not to follow him blindly he demanded they think for themselves in fact joseph campbell the famous scholar of the history and meaning of myths traced the western emphasis on individual thought to the zoroastrians zoroastrians have many words for thought their motto leaded into a stained glass window over the sacred fire at the temple on the slopes of mount hamilton is good thoughts good words good deeds so it s not surprising that zoroastrians value education highly in india where a contingent of zoroastrians arrived in the ninth century to escape persecution by muslims in iran zoroastrians claim percent literacy the overall statistic in india is just percent about half of the bay area zoroastrian community came here from india and pakistan mostly to study at universities the other half fled from iran after the revolution made that a fundamentalist islamic state where others had no rights local zoroastrians point with pride to ways their emphasis on good deeds has improved life in every country they inhabit in san jose the recent restoration of the hotel sainte clarie came about because manou mobedshahi a san francisco based hotelier passed the boarded up downtown landmark on his way to and from the temple at the temple s dedication the chief guest of honor was the mother of zubin mehta the zoroastrian conductor of the new york philharmonic orchestra the temple exists because of another good deed the decision by an iranian emigre the late arbab rustom guiv to buy land for six temples in north america besides the acre site off crothers road on mount hamilton he paid for land in los angeles chicago new york toronto and vancouver until his gifts there were no zoroastrian temples on this continent local zoroastrians raised money to build the actual temple and the property already had a large house that they have converted to a community center the temple dedicated a year ago on the birthday of the prophet zoroaster is a simple structure with gleaming white walls vaulted ceilings and oak floors partially covered with huge oriental carpets its central feature is the fire set in the middle of a partly glassed in area at the center of the building although zoroastrians are sometimes called fire worshippers they actually consider fire just a symbol of god it helps us concentrate just like christians use the cross and muslims use the holy book bhujwala said the biggest celebration of the years occurs in early spring for all iranians including zoroastrians the new year begins on the first day of the season because of its symbolism as the start of new life with zoroaster s birthday just six days later the combination of religious and secular holidays creates something on par with what most of the united states celebrates between christmas and jan for this year s celebration of the prophet s birthday about people came to worship and revel the good things in life are not forbidden esfandiar anoushiravani a leader of the iranian members had said beforehand and what followed proved him right inside the temple worshipers filled every chair and sat or stood around the edges of the room as about a half dozen priests chanted thanksgiving prayers around a table laden with braziers of smoking sandalwood glasses of milk and water and a tray heaped with dried fruit and nuts kids crowded around grabbing handfuls of the treats people eat the fruit tarapore said it s a way to participate in the ceremony santa claus sort of the gathering even had a santa claus iranian style with flowing white hair and a bag of gifts for the children this amownaroz wore green symbolic of spring and red he was ushed in by a sort of spring clown hajefyrouz who danced and played a tambourine the zoroastrians from india were charmed this is all new for us too one told a visitor who asked what was going on a visitor john a sabanovich of folsom said he became intrigued with the religion years ago while on business trips to iran zoroastrians have no procedure for accepting converts a result some say of their centuries of persecution in iran followed by their promise to the hindu king who allowed them into india that they would not interfere with his people s religion but that does not stop sabavich from joining in the celebrations at the san jose temple whenever he can when i first heard about this religion he said i thought my god this is what a religion should be they think for themselves and do good people who don t have a tradition something to lean on what s the difference with the lower animals end of article
talk.religion.misc	re the list of biblical contradictions joslin pogo isp pitt edu david joslin writes i m curious to know what purpose people think these lists serve lists like this seem to value quantity over quality an argument from article length and the list you have here is of poorer quality than most i agree which is why i ve asked for help with it the reason i m working on this list is because i ve recently had one too many christians tell me the bible contains no contradictions whatsoever they believe that it s true and that it describes reality perfectly and even predicts history before it happens before i can carry on any sort of meaningful conversation with these people i ve got to show them with concrete evidence that the bible is not nearly as airtight as they thought i hope to do that with this list specifically when i bring up the fact that genesis contains two contradictory creation stories i usually get blank stares or flat denials i ve never had a fundamentalist acknowledge that there are indeed two different accounts of creation brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun bskendig netcom com de ceux que j ai vus j ose croire n etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent the meaning of life si je ne vaux pas mieux au moins je suis autre is that it ends rousseau
talk.religion.misc	re bhagavad gita kalki dasa writes these topics are all discussed in the vedas in fact the original knowledge of all these topics comes from the vedas therefore they are not newage at all they are rather old by any standards nor is the popularity they are currently experiencing something new one would think that the vedas would be very popular among newagers since all the things you mention above are thoroughly described in them isn t that interesting in the jewish tradition you are incredibly wrong they originate in the torah and with jewish ancestors specifically the patriarch abraham z l that knowledge was sent east to india and china when abraham gave gifts the commentators to jewish scripture say this was the knowledge of the occult arts to all the rest of his children when he sent them away to the east this assured that isaac only who remained with abraham would inherit his most important spiritual gifts what eventually became judaism so you see other religions can have very parochial views too by the jewish view you are very mistaken your scripture are not scripture your gods are not gods your practices a jumble of errors that lead people to idol worship and away from god that doesn t stop us from respecting you to the extent of not trying to convert you or proselytize you and being willing to dialog in a respectful manner we re content to let you live the way you care to live as long as you leave us be we are happy to co exist as long as you give us the same right but your incredible rudeness and violent nature seems to preclude that too bad is this typical of your religion however there is one difference between the newage practitioner and the actual follower of the vedic teachings the typical newager desires to acquire all the material powers and opulences mentioned in the vedas without referring to their source the lord he wants the kingdom of god without god he wants personal power without the responsibility of acknowledging its source without the person from whom that power comes in other words he is just plain selfish you are a most presumptuous fellow how dare you presume that the typical new ager doesn t acknowledge god and is selfish what trite self righteous ego ful garbage there are buddhists christians jews and those of many other religions here on this newsgroups for whom your words are simple slander the vedic follower on the other hand knows that no matter what one desires one must worship god and the vedas give a complete description of exactly who is god so that there can be no mistake in his identification for this reason the parts of the vedas that deal directly with the personality of godhead are not very popular among newagers and anyone who presents the complete vedas as they are is branded as an evangelist as if there is something wrong with that even though he is simply presenting the unadulterated vedic teachings of course from the jewish perspective you are incredibly wrong we d say that there is no godhead just created beings who may be enjoying a good laugh at your expense a thief takes from others and says this is mine a newager takes from god and says this is mine such a false mystic must be careful to avoid coming in contact with the real owner of the things he has stolen consequently he invents an explanation for these things that conveniently omits the identity of their owner the lord in other words he lies about where he got them so not only are we selfish we are also thieves and liars and you expect any of us to pay attention to you and your religion why not call us more name maybe then we ll all convert in gratefullness however the lord is very merciful and he sends his servants to remind the newager of his own identity as spirit soul the eternal servant of god hence although unwanted the evangelist continues to broadcast the complete truth you delude yourself len moskowitz moskowit panix com
talk.religion.misc	re question for those with popular morality in article apr microsoft com bobsarv microsoft com bob sarver writes understand what the words mean someone who inflicts pain on themselves because they enjoy it is a masochist and no there is nothing wrong with it you may think it s gross or bizarre and i might agree with you here but my your disgust is not equal to it being morally wrong hudson if someone inflicts pain on themselves whether they enjoy it or not they are hurting themselves they may be permanently damaging their body that is true it is also none of your business some people may also reason that by reading the bible and being a xtian you are permanently damaging your brain by your logic it would be ok for them to come into your home take away your bible and send you off to re education camps to save your mind from ruin are you ready for that hudson and why is there nothing wrong with it because you say so who gave you the authority to say that and set the standard for morality why because i am a living thinking person able to make choices for myself i do not need you to show me what you think is the way i have observed too many errors in your thinking already to trust you to make up the rules for me because i set the standard for my own morality and i permit you to do the same for yourself i also do not try to force you to accept my rules because simply because you don t like what other people are doing doesn t give you the right to stop it hudson we are all aware that you would like for everyone to be like you however it is obnoxious arrogant thinking like yours the i know i m morally right so i can force it on you bullshit that has brought us religious wars pogroms against jews gay bashing and other atrocities by other people who like you knew they were morally right me what is it with you hudson you think you know better than other people so you want to be able to tell them what they can and cannot do to themselves who died and made you god how come i can t do the same thing hudson aren t you aren t you indicating that i should not tell other people what to do aren t you telling me it is wrong for me to do that it is not a moral standard that i am presenting you with hudson it is a key to getting along in life with other people it is also a point of respect i trust other people to be intelligent enough to make their own choices and i expect the same to be returned you on the other hand do not trust them and want to make the choice for them whether they like it or not it is also a way to avoid an inconsistency if you believe that you have the right to set moral standards for others and interfere in their lives then you must by logic admit that other people have the same right of interference in your life yes i know you will say that your religion is correct and tells you that only agents acting in behalf of your religion have the right of interference however other people will say that you have misinterpreted the word of god and that they are the actual true believers and that you are acting on your own authority and so it goes hudson who gave you the authority to set such a moral standard for me to tell me that i cannot set a moral standard for others you can set all the standards that you want actually but don t be surprised if people don t follow you like rats after the pied piper at the most basic form i am not going to let you tell me what to do and if necessary i will beat you to a bloody pulp before i let you actually interfere in my life now at a more humane level than that i recognize that all people are sentient beings possessed of intelligence and capable of reason i also recognize that they like i appreciate being treated with respect and allowed to make their own decisions
talk.religion.misc	re question for those with popular morality hudson these people hurt their own bodies why can t they hurt other peoples bodies too me because other people might not want to be hurt hudson and hurting them against their will is a violation of choice hudson so why is someone elses will such a big deal if morality is all relative i don t believe i ever said that morality was all relative what i said was that i can make my mind up on my own thank you and that you don t have the right to tell others what to think i think that you will find that in most moral systems there is a respect for human life and the dignity of the person it is all the stuff besides these points that forms the core of the disagreement between primitive moral absolutists like yourself and the rest of us hudson maybe the insane lover of pain might reason if other people experienced enough pain they might learn to enjoy it too fine there is still the clinical definition of crazy and this also involves a violation of free will because the insane lover of your little example would be inflicting pain on a non willing subject try again hudson you have to have other premises to derive this me no you don t that is a patently false statement hudson you have to have some sort of premise about choice or self awareness no you do not i demonstrated to you the example of the football team which doesn t require premises about freedom of choice or sentience self awareness as i said you are wrong and you don t seem to know much about moral systems if i were you i would take david bold s suggestion and do some reading on the subject before you try preaching about it
talk.religion.misc	re question for those with popular morality hudson yes you do who is to say that it is immoral for onesself to experience pain or to be hurt in some other way maybe unpleasant but that doesn t say anything about morality it violates free will hudson me you can derive the immorality of hurting someone else entirely from selfish motives i can say for example that it is wrong to hurt other people because that makes them less productive members of society hudson why is making someone a less productive member of society immoral hudson you are screwing up again morality does not i say again does not define only right and wrong it also defines acceptable social behavior without any overtones of good and evil picking up your trash is not really a right wrong moral issue in the eternal sense of good and evil yet it is moral in the sense that it is acceptable social behavior your definition of the word morality is what is causing you to trip over yourself here me and since i selfish being that i am want to maximize my gains from society i will not do anything to another member of society if that action might cut down on how much benefit i can derive from society hudson why is your benefit somehow related to morality again your definition is causing you to shoot yourself in the foot hudson what about if someone feels that their own personal benefit is enhanced more than it would be damaged by depleting the overall resources of society maybe something might hurt society but it would help him immensly that is irrational thinking there may also be people out there who think that death by atomic destruction is a sublime and wonderful thing i am not going to let them execute that idea just because they want to do it simply because i let people make up their minds about what morals they have doesn t prevent me from spotting and stopping a madman when i see one hudson and even then i will only stop him when he interferes with me and my life that is the difference between me and you you want to interfere in people s lives even when they aren t affecting you hudson the central character in dostoevsky s novel crime and punishment r something or other reasoned that if killed this old jewish woman and stole her money to educate and establish himself financially he could make a great contribution to society he reasoned that she was not of much profit to society she just collected rents and hoarded money one of the central points of any that s any moral system is that is has to be internally consistent by killing her the character had to accept the premise that the ends justify the means if he accepted that premise then in order to be consistent he must accept the idea that some day another person may apply the same standard to his life now if he is unwilling to accept this premise which he will not be willing to accept then he has behaved inconsistently with his own moral standard me football example deleted hudson now suppose a freshman on the bench will only get to play if one of the players in the field on the court is injured or killed this freshman wants to play in the big game so a talent scout can see him if he hurts a player on the team it might slightly lessen the chances of the team to win but he might gain great personal benefit so operating on purely selfish immorally selfish motives he arranges for a sniper to shoot a team player in the leg he gets to play in front of the talent scout did that freshman behave morally selfish intentions may sometimes generate apparently moral actions but not always two problems right off the bat the problem with your analogy is that it doesn t address the goal that i started with winning the game playing in front of the talent scout winning the game try creating the same analogy and keep the ultimate goal the same will you the internal consistency question is also not addressed if the freshman wants to do this to other people then he has to accept the fact that it may happen to him one day if he is unwilling then he has violated his own moral standard
talk.religion.misc	re question for those with popular morality hudson and from a materialistic point of view it could be said that the nervous system is just matter what is wrong with producing chemical reactions in matter because this matter is different it is alive and self aware and it feels pain hudson if all morality were relative big hairy deal as i said you appear to be the only person saying that all morality is relative most people i know do hold some absolutes in their moral system i personally believe that the dignity of the individual and the right of free will are absolutes i recognize that there are some moral systems around which don t accept this i reject them as dangerous and anti social nazism some forms of communism fundamentalist xtianity no that s not a slam but for the most part almost every moral system agrees on these two points me and the sky and everything in it everything that was created came out of god everything including this matter is part of god therefore is it wrong to put parts of god in a test tube and make it go through reactions isn t that a form of blasphemy hudson generally christians believe in a creator creation distinction other religions believe in one big whole i don t accept yor premises too bad i know i m right so i get to enforce my view upon you whether you like my premise or not and since you can t prove otherwise there isn t even an intellectual basis for your resistance to accepting my viewpoint hudson how long will it be before the as long as it doesn t hurt someone else becomes more and more relative until the only rule that is left is i will do what i want to do no matter who it hurts there s a big jump between those two positions and you know it very well don t play stupid i realize that you re trying to dispute what you call popular morality by using what you think is logic but you re stretching this a bit too thin hudson i don t think so once morality becomes relative it degenerates i am saying that reasoning that it is generally evil to hurt other people is bad though i don t think it is sufficient well then answer me this you seem to be opposed to moral relativism as you call it because it has the capacity to degenerate obviously then you would advocate a nonrelative absolute moral system whose absolutist moral system do we choose how do we come to this decision what about people who disagree with the chosen moral system hudson but if morality is considered to be relative and this rule isn t based on anything but is just an arbitrary rule people might abandon it fine i can agree with most of what you typed here however just because morality gets based on something nonrelative does not mean that we have to pick your xtianity as its base we can start a morality based on dignity of humans freedom of choice tolerance etc and never ever rely on xtianity for anything just because someone has a consistent moral system based on true principles does not mean that they have to involve xtianity in it xtianity certainly does not have a monopoly on principles of behavior indeed fewer religions are guiltier of violating their own principles
talk.religion.misc	re question for those with popular morality in article apr microsoft com bobsarv microsoft com bob sarver writes why would it be immoral to hurt someone else me because you wouldn t want it to happen to you hudson why does that make something immoral because you are not being consistent moral systems must be consistent a person who thinks they can inflict pain on others but doesn t want it inflicted upon themselves has a double standard and double standards are a violation of any moral system me morality defines how we interact with other people the rules that we use to guide our daily affairs our conduct towards our fellow man by realizing that we don t like pain we can also realize that other people don t like it either hudson of course we don t like pain i don t like brussel sprouts are brussel sprouts immoral pain isn t immoral stupid pain itself is just a physiological reaction what is immoral is subjecting unwilling individuals to pain or brussel sprouts for that matter hudson is it immoral to produce these same chemical reactions in a test tube me it isn t the chemical reaction that is wrong bozo it s making the human being undergo the effects of the chemical reaction sorry your cute little analogy didn t survive for very long under scrutiny hudson why would it be wrong to make humans undergo the effects of the reactions if humans are composed only of matter what humans are composed of isn t the qualifying criteria of whether or not something would be wrong hudson is it wrong to make matter undergo chemical reactions yes if it is sentient matter me nature is not a sentient force there is no choice involved therefore no question of morality hudson i actually heard a geologist entertain the notion that matter had a will there is some sentient force out there fine i have also heard that the government is encoding the dna for a new race of superhumans in ordinary drinking water what s your point hudson if humans are made only of matter then choices are also chemical reactions so why is choice an important issue and if that is the case then god is only an idea contained in the minds of people formed of matter and on printed pages also formed of matter and does not really exist i can do the argumentem ad absurdium just as well as you can but it won t prove any points for you or me got anything relevant you want to talk about or are you just playing cute little games
talk.religion.misc	re the list of biblical contradictions in article bskendigc cqb k r netcom com bskendig netcom com brian kendig writes specifically when i bring up the fact that genesis contains two contradictory creation stories i usually get blank stares or flat denials i ve never had a fundamentalist acknowledge that there are indeed two different accounts of creation that is because two creation stories is one of the worst examples of a difficulty with the bible were formed can also be translated had been formed in chapter two without any problems so the text does not demand that there are two creation stories link hudson
talk.religion.misc	re question for those with popular morality in article apr midway uchicago edu dsoconne midway uchicago edu writes but there is a base of true absolute morality that we can stand on note that if the majority of people remain unconvinced this idea probably isn t worth very much in a pragmatic sense maybe not to you but to those who stand on this base he is precious link
talk.religion.misc	re religion and homosexuality in article apr midway uchicago edu dsoconne midway uchicago edu writes first of all as far as i know only male homosexuality is explicitly mentioned in the bibles so you re off the hook there actually there is one condemnation of lesbian acts in the bible romans i think in any event there are plenty of people in many denominations who do not consider a person s sexual identification of gay lesbian bisexual as an immoral lifestyle choice there are plenty who don t read the bible or pray for that matter link hudson
talk.religion.misc	re bhagavad gita a poster writes in the kingdom of god vaikuntha the tigers do not eat other living beings in the material world everyone is trying to consume everyone else therefore we all even tigers who are by no means invincible should try to get out of the miserable material situation and return to the kingdom of god is the so called material world outside the kingdom of god right but unfortunately acting like animals is the number one pastime of modern human beings aha animals are inferior and humans are superior huh isn t the desire to be superior so overwhelming that humans constantly put down even innocent animals raj p s request please e mail a copy of any response to raj as he does not read trm regularly
talk.religion.misc	re mark of the beast need info on a slightly different note there are two buildings in ny state with big numbers on the roof one in manhattan and one near garden city the garden city one is a nice black unmarked building join the pythagorean reform church repent of your evil irrational numbers and bean eating ways accept into your heart call the pythagorean reform church bbs at
talk.religion.misc	re the list of biblical contradictions hudson athena cs uga edu paul hudson jr writes bskendig netcom com brian kendig writes specifically when i bring up the fact that genesis contains two contradictory creation stories i usually get blank stares or flat denials i ve never had a fundamentalist acknowledge that there are indeed two different accounts of creation that is because two creation stories is one of the worst examples of a difficulty with the bible were formed can also be translated had been formed in chapter two without any problems so the text does not demand that there are two creation stories really i don t get it genesis first says that god created the earth then the animals then humans then it turns around and says that humans were created before animals how can you escape this contradiction brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun bskendig netcom com de ceux que j ai vus j ose croire n etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent the meaning of life si je ne vaux pas mieux au moins je suis autre is that it ends rousseau
talk.religion.misc	re lds kermit s reply was re tony rose was free book of mormon robert weiss psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu wrote lots of stuff about the nicene creed deleted which can be read in the original basenote i will also leave it up to other lds netters to take mr weiss to task on using mormon doctrine to declare the difinitive word on what the lds church teaches as doctrine hopefully the lds netters will be amiable in their explanation since it would do no good to rebut what mr weiss has stated on the origin of the nicene creed and its status as devine and inspired i say no good because it cannot be proved through discussion or debate as to whether or not the authors of the creed were inspired i leave you it will be some time before i post again with the following thought authored by eugene england professor of english at brigham young university mr england wrote the following as part of a book review section in this people s magazine spring edition i conclude with a little sermon because i believe we will not be a mormon or human family until we can get over labeling and rejecting each other with terms like feminist or patriarchal liberal or conservative christian or non christian hal when we are tempted to draw a circle around a set of beliefs and traditions and styles and call it american then exclude those who don t fit it may be well to consider that perhaps the most central defining characteristic of a good american might be one who doesn t draw exclusive circles that the surest way of excluding ourselves from the central american ideal is by excluding others and when we are tempted to draw a circle around mormon or christian to decide who is orthodox and who isn t by how much they agree with us it might be well to consider that the central pillar of christ s orthodoxy is our ability to love unconditionally those who are different and include them in our family i recently spent some time in a christian bookstore in california the service was excellent the clerks and customers all smiling neat and well scrubbed and there were the expected wholesome offerings of scriptural commentaries sentimental fiction and collections of evangelistic sermons but i was dismayed to find how much shelf space was given to attacking others often viciously whether the political left our modern american culture or other religions a whole section was devoted to cults and the occult and as you might expect mormonism was right there under the same rubric and indictment often by the same authors as satanism and i found i could either rent or buy in english or spanish copies of the god makers that absurdly inaccurate even libelous but very popular and dangerous anti mormon film that uses exaclty the same techniques and even accusations of the nazi films that scapegoated jews in the s it seems to me one major indication that a person is a genuine convert to christ and his redemptive love is his lack of paranoia and anxiety perfect love casteth out fear i john i have always been pleased that the lds church has not engaged in attacks on other faiths though i find a disheartening increase in willingness of individual mormons to engage in the same kinds of stereotyping and scapegoating and even threats of coercive action as the religious right wing has launched this year against the political left and american cultural and religious styles they don t like it is a fearful irony that in so doing mormons take common cause with the very people who have most slanderously attacked mormons people who would if they had power forcefully restrict mormons rights along with those of others they believe to be evil the above sermon was addressed to the lds audience who usually subscribe to this people s magazine but would certainly apply to all of us who rely on the mercies and grace of jesus christ to bring us back into his arms even though the lds church claims devine authority to exercise the principles of the restored gospel as in the days of christ the church does not claim perfection and infallibility in how those with authoritative status have or do now lead the church i for one do not wish to be labelled christian if those who profess themselves as christians attack my beliefs because they are intollerent for example of the way my religion may interpret biblical scriptures of the same source to have a different meaning and implication than mainstream christianity would give it once again being in the majority does not in and of itself prove anything except that your collective voice is louder that s really all the critics of the lds church have to stand on in terms of the kind of biblical interpretation used as proof to counter the lds church interpretation using someone elses biased research of truths and non truths whose to say what the mixture is as an authoritative tool to disprove or discredit is not being fair to anyone least of all themselves let us simply agree to disagree and share beliefs through adult discussion and conversation thereby uplifting everyone hal leifson signing off
talk.religion.misc	re spreading christianity re christian extremist kills doctor david r sacco dsav andrew cmu edu writes not to be too snide about it but i think this christianity must be a very convenient religion very maliable and suitable for any occassion since it seems one can take it any way one wants to go with it and follow whichever bits one pleases and reinterpret the bits that don t match with one s desires it is in fact so convenient that were i capable of believing in a god i might consider going for some brand of christianity the only difficulty left then of course is picking which sect to join there are just so many dean kaflowitz yes christianity is convenient following the teachings of jesus christ and the ten commandments is convenient trying to love in a hateful world is convenient turning the other cheek is convenient so convenient that it is burdensome at times dave some christians take a discount off the ten commandments sunday cannot be substituted for the sabbath
talk.religion.misc	apr god s promise in john hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name ask and ye shall receive that your joy may be full john
talk.religion.misc	lds hal s reply in article c nls as boi hp com hall boi hp com hal leifson writes dr england s story deleted it was a nice read the first time through now lead the church i for one do not wish to be labelled christian if those who profess themselves as christians attack my beliefs because they are intollerent for example of the way my religion may interpret biblical scriptures of the same source to have a different meaning and implication than mainstream christianity would give it it isn t so much a matter of interpretation of bible texts that sets mormonism apart from orthodoxy as it is a matter of fabrication about years ago national lampoon had some comic strips in them that were drawn by neal adams they were called son o god comics it was a parody of the jesus in the bible in the comic there were a group of thirteen jewish kids from brooklyn and when one of them said the magic word he turned into son o god he went from a myopic curly headed yarmulke wearing boy to a replica of the stylizied portraits of jesus with long flowing brown hair and gentile features now if someone were to profess faith in this natlamp jesus and claim that they were a christian because they believed in this natlamp jesus we would have to say that this was fallacious since this jesus was a fabrication and did not really exist this is the exact same thing that the lds do when they claim that they are christian they profess faith in jesus but the jesus that they profess to have faith in is as much a fabrication as the natlamp jesus was robert weiss psyrobtw ubvms cc buffalo edu
talk.religion.misc	re the number of the beast viewer discr in article pr d doh cat cis brown edu st brownvm brown edu alex gottschalk writes well i will do the math and i get this mean anything to anyone thus fitting in neatly with something else of course which quite obviously is r
talk.religion.misc	re question for those with popular morality paul hudson jr hudson athena cs uga edu writes i was not directly going to come up with a moral argument for the existence of god rather i was trying to show the absurdity of atheistic materialist relatavists trying to embrace some common moral system as though it were absolute man knows in his heart that there is right and wrong we have all inherited this knowledge no matter how absurd it is to suggest that a common moral system created by mankind is absolute it is not contrary to reason to suggest that a common moral system created by mankind is sensible in fact for the bible to be of any use to mankind as a moral code it must be interpreted by mankind and a workable moral system created for everyday use the jewish talmud is the result of centuries of biblical scholars analysing every word of the torah to understand the morality behind it the children of israel were given a very strict set of moral civil judicial and ceremonial laws to follow and yet this was clearly not enough to cover every instance of moral dilemma in their society for a christian the situation is no better it seems to me that the only code of morality that we have from the judeo christian god is that which is contained in the bible which we can see from the diverse opinions in the christian newsgroups is not clear there may well be an absolute morality defined by the judeo christian god for mankind to follow but it seems that we only have a subset simply because the concept was written down by man this leads to the problem of defining morality for our society if we take the divine morality then we have a code of practice which may be interpreted in many different ways as an example consider the immolation of heretics in the fifteenth century and the interpretation of the bible which allows a man to do that to another man under the precept to administer justice if we take an agnostic morality then we have a code of practice that can be modified to suit society with all the danger that this implies alternatively we could take the basis of the judeo christian morality and interpret extend this to create and justify a code of morality which suits the society we live in and enables the people to live righteously as many christian and non christian philosophers have done whatever the driving force behind the definition of morality for our society i think the important aspect is the result david on religion oh where is the sea the fishes cried as they swam its clearness through
talk.religion.misc	fragmentation the primary problem in human nature is a fragmentation of being humans are in a state of tension a tension of opposites good and evil are the most thought provoking polarities that come to mind the bible provides us with many examples of the fragmentation of being the warring opposites within us are a product of man s rebellion against god which is described so vividly in the pages of the scriptures man was created with the order to become a god those were the words of st basil in the fourth century what he was trying to say was that god created man to be a partaker of the divine nature in the eastern orthodox church this is called theosis or deification one can also say that man was created to be whole i e spirit soul and body operating in unison the story of adam and eve is a picture of the archetypal humans before obtaining moral consciousness theirs was a harmonious relationship with each other the world and the creator that innocent harmony was shattered when they disobeyed god their natural wholeness falling apart into two seemingly irreconcilable halves immediately guilt and fear was manifested in their lives they become bound to hardship toil and suffering this is symbolized in their exile from the paradisiac state the beast in the jungle does not possess moral consciousness if it were to receive this self awareness the knowledge of good and evil its paradisiac state would also be destroyed was it the intention of the creator to leave man in this state of innocence all the days of his existence on earth or was the gaining of self awareness carefully staged by god who did not desire that his masterpiece mankind be a blissful idiot god must have known that for mankind to achieve any kind of moral value he must pass through a confrontation with the opposites there is no other way to achieve union with god jesus christ is the answer to the problem of the warring polarities he was the perfectly integrated individual reconciling the opposites and making it possible for us to be integrated i e to become god not in his essence but in his energies the opposites is the christian problem the apostle paul describes it with the utmost precision in romans and he follows with the answer to his dilemma in vs mark
talk.religion.misc	re is thou shalt not kill ever applied in the bible in pdj binnrtr crcnis unl edu e p unl edu edgar pearlstein wrote are there any places in the bible where the commandment thou shalt not kill is specifically applied that is where someone refrained from killing because he remembered the commandment no for the excellent reason that there is no such commandment aside from that please note that the abrahamic literary tradition is strong on narrative light on dialog and virtually nonexistent w r t introspection d c sessions speaking for myself note new network address dcs witsend tnet com author and everything else of tmail dos mail news shell
talk.religion.misc	re spreading christianity re christian extremist kills doctor in article yfk p q wbm t sj andrew cmu edu david r sacco dsav andrew cmu edu writes not to be too snide about it but i think this christianity must be a very convenient religion very maliable and suitable for any occassion since it seems one can take it any way one wants to go with it and follow whichever bits one pleases and reinterpret the bits that don t match with one s desires it is in fact so convenient that were i capable of believing in a god i might consider going for some brand of christianity the only difficulty left then of course is picking which sect to join there are just so many yes christianity is convenient following the teachings of jesus christ and the ten commandments is convenient trying to love in a hateful world is convenient turning the other cheek is convenient so convenient that it is burdensome at times your last remark is a contradiction but i ll let that pass i was addressing the notion of the great commission which you deleted in order to provide us with dull little homilies thank you bing crosby now you go right on back to sleep and mommy and daddy will tuck you in later oh and how convenient his bible must have been to michael griffin how convenient his christianity well i ll just skip the bit about not murdering people and loving the sinner and hating the sin and all that other stuff for now and concentrate on the part where it says that if someone is doing something wrong you should shoot him in the back several times as he tries to hobble away on his crutches i ll leave the convert or die program of the missionaries and their military escorts in the americas for nadja to explain as she knows much more about it than i must be awfully convenient by the way to offer platitudes as you have done david rather than addressing the arguments dean kaflowitz
talk.religion.misc	re sunday the day of our lord pharvey quack kfu com paul harvey writes dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu darius lecointe writes exactly sunday worship is in honor or the sun not the son of god same thing isn t it it s pronounced the same what other heavenly beings are resurrected the moon that would by lunacy at least to a sunday worshiper i have heard that the sabbath was originally determined by the phases of the moon and had elements of moon worship early stuff egyptian in nature larry caldwell caldwell ohsu edu compuserve oregon health sciences university
talk.religion.misc	re the number of the beast viewer discretion is advised un resolution guarantees humanitarian aid will get into irag during the gulf war is this war over is aid getting in or are they still trying to smoke out saddam is this the middle east are we talking religious war here am i ranting james owens ad freenet carleton ca ottawa ontario canada
talk.religion.misc	re religion and homosexuality in article c uzus fkp mailer cc fsu edu dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu darius lecointe writes lfoard hopper virginia edu lawrence c foard writes unlike kleptomaniacs and adulterers homosexuals hurt no one by having sex with the same sex what about the homosexual whose family does not accept that decision and is hurt emotionally by it good question i don t have a nice concise answer though what about the child whose parents are crushed emotionally because he she starts a carerr doing something they greatly dislike it is the same kind of harm and is probably caused by the same thing the desire of the child to be true to his or her self what is more important being true to yourself or burying that truth within you in order to maintain peace in the family hard question no good answer lance
talk.religion.misc	biblical contradictions answered judas i posted this several days ago for dave butler he may have missed it my usenet board has changed a little just in case he missed it here it is again dave butler writes from daveb pogo wv tek com dave butler newsgroups talk religion misc subject re new biblical contradictions fallaciously answered judas date thu apr i can basically restrict this post to showing the type of evidence mr decenso has presented and answering his two questions and a couple of his spurious insults and false claims my reply o k db by the way mr decenso you really should have looked in the index of your bauer arndt gingrich greek lexicon you would have found that the word in acts for lot is kleros not chorion as stated by mr archer and nowhere in the very large discussion of kleros in done the to theological dictionary of the new testament by bromley is the meaning burial plot discussed it discusses the forms of kleros eg kleros kleroo etc and the various meanings of kleros eg plot of land and inheritance but mentions nothing about chorion or burial plot why does this not surprise me thus it would seem to be a very good thing you dumped archer as a reference db later corrected himself from daveb pogo wv tek com dave butler newsgroups talk religion misc subject re new biblical contradictions fallaciously answered judas date fri apr i owe the group an apology it is my habit to check my articles before and after their submission for errors in my last article i stated by the way mr decenso you really should have looked in the index of your bauer arndt gingrich greek lexicon you would have found that the word in acts for lot is kleros not chorion as stated by mr archer and nowhere in the very large discussion of kleros in done the to theological dictionary of the new testament by bromley is the meaning burial plot discussed it discusses the forms of kleros eg kleros kleroo etc and the various meanings of kleros eg plot of land and inheritance but mentions nothing about chorion or burial plot why does this not surprise me thus it would seem to be a very good thing you dumped archer as a reference i was wrong i admit that i do not have a handle on greek grammar and thus confused kleros the second to last word in acts as being the plot of land discussed in actuality it is chorion which is the last word acts unfortunately my greek dictionary does not discuss chorion so i cannot report as to the nuances of the word i don t know if someone else would have caught this though i am sure that someone would be able to do so but i have an aversion to disseminating mistakes especially when someone else might use that mistake to prove a point my reply vary noble of you dave i didn t want to have to go to x number of sources to show you wrong although i am researching chorion a little db of course the only other reference mr decenso has given is bullinger and bullinger uses such ridiculous exegisis that when i accused mr decenso of actually believing bullinger he replied that i misquoted him and you maintain that you find such exegesis convincing oh dear my reply your misquotes of me are astounding dave read the beginning of this part of my response to see what i really said in my posting of this article actually mr decenso you said that there was benefit to our argument in that it caused to to rediscover bullinger s exegisis i did not realize that you would find such garbage beneficial unless you were convinced by it my reply thank you for correcting your restating of my points db and mr decenso also replied dave these are not necessarily my views they are bullinger s we will discuss the land issue in later posts i m sure i m only responding to this one you have directed re bullinger s views because it s enjoyable thus i apologize for thinking that even mr decenso could find such drek convincing he should specify which parts of bullinger he finds convincing and quit hiding behind a disingenuous mask of this is what bullinger believed not necessarily what i believe so which is it mr decenso do you find the exegisis convincing or not my reply one of my purposes in debating these alleged contradictions with you and others is to diseminate many different views of possible reconciliations raised by various bible scholars and students alike when i present my views i will clearly distinguish them from now on db of course without archer and bullinger we find that mr decenso has presented no greek exegisis at all and mr decenso has made a big thing about my not referring back to the actual greek thus we find this demand on his part for quality greek exegisis to be a hypocritical requirement my reply good point but in your declaring that these passages are contradictory you have produced only superficial reasonings and observations nor have you dug deeper i m glad you have begun in this post i will begin greek studies on these passages in more depth than i thought necessary as well db it would be appropriate to look at what mr decenso has actually used as evidence now we know what he claims for a standard as he has stated it often enough a the text itself b parallel passages c other pertinent scriptures d historical context e historical content f other pertinent historical info g cultural context h cultural content i other pertinent cultural info j grammatical construction k hebrew and greek word studies l etc but are these actual standards he has used or simply empty hyperbole let s see he has used a and since he is trying to reconcile it to other passages we see that he has also used b on the other hand he has presented no use of d historical context or e historical content or f other pertinent historical info or g cultural context or h cultural content or i other pertinent cultural info or j grammatical construction or even k hebrew and greek word studies remember archer and bullinger don t count thus we find his vaunted criteria for exegisis is just empty mouthings my reply question do you find such criteria important if so do you plan on starting to use them to the best of your ability or will you continue to present shallow observations i don t mean this in a bad way at this point in our debates i have not found it necessary to present a total exegetical analysis of these passages since we seem to keep beating around the bush and not getting into the core of the verses i do not believe it necessary to use many of the above criteria to refute your arguments re judas in acts and matthew but i will do my best from this point on to use several of the above criteria since you desire me to i hope you will also it will greatly enhance our study of these passages db the only thing he has actually used beyond the passage itself is any other passage thus mr decenso should be honest and note that most of his list is red herring and his only real criteria seems to be a the text itself b parallel passages my reply the reason is simple you are mistating the passages you claim that the passages contradict one another i do not see the passages contradicting one another they may very well be complimentary as many scholarly sources mention matthew may not be presenting judas death as you claim but we ll look at your defense of this later also the reward of iniquity in the acts passage may not be the pieces of silver in matthew s passages although you have a valiant attempt later at stating why you believe it is at this beginning stages in our debates we are laying some scriptural groundwork which will be expanded upon through deeper exegesis db of course the only reason i can see to so drastically reinterpret a passage as he has done with judas death is to make it agree with another passage so that both could be considered correct my reply one of the reasons i have given a different exegetical view of the passages is that you seem to think the majority of scholarship is wrong in concluding these passages are complimentary however i see no problem in tony rose s explanation of judas death how would you explain the inaccuracy between judas hanging himself in matthew and falling headlong he burst open this question of the manner in which judas died is one with which we are constantly confronted in our travels many people point to the apparent discrepancy in the two accounts as an obvious irreconcilable error some have gone so far as to say that the idea of an inerrant bible is destroyed by these contradictory accounts however this is not the case at all matthew relates that judas hanged himself while peter tells us he fell and was crushed by the impact the two statements are indeed different but do they necessarily contradict each other matthew does not say that judas did not fall neither does peter say that judas did not hang himself this is not a matter of one person calling something black and the other person calling it white both accounts can be true and supplementary a possible reconstruction would be this judas hanged himself on a tree on the edge of a precipice that overlooked the valley of hinnom after he hung there for some time the limb of the tree snapped or the rope gave way and judas fell down the ledge mangling his body in the process the fall could have been before or after death as either would fit this explanation this possibility is entirely natural when the terrain of the valley of hinnom is examined from the bottom of the valley you can see rocky terraces to feet in height and almost perpendicular there are still trees around the ledges and a rocky pavement at the bottom therefore it is easy to conclude that judas struck one of the jagged rocks on this way down tearing his body open it is important to remember that we are not told how long judas remained hanging from the tree or how advanced was the decomposition of his body before his fall louis gaussen relates a story of a man who was determined to kill himself this individual placed himself on the sill of a high window and pointed a pistol at his head he then pulled the trigger and leaped from the window at the same time on the other hand a person could say that this man took his life by shooting himself while another could rightly contend he committed suicide by jumping form the tall building in this case both are true as both are true in the case of matthew s and peter s accounts of the death of judas it is merely a situation of different perspectives of the same event your only reason for rejecting this is i believe your attempt to discredit inerrancy you haven t related how this is impossible or highly unlikely here s what you said in an earlier post db quoting tony rose there are still trees around the ledges and a rocky pavement at the bottom therefore it is easy to conclude that judas struck one of the jagged rocks on this way down tearing his body open it is important to remember that we are not told how long judas remained hanging from the tree or how advanced was the decomposition of his body before his fall the added text in this version is so heavy that assuming you are truly so opposed to such tactics you should find it not credible but you seem to find tony rose s eisegesis satisfactory while clearly rejecting david joslin s here you discredit tony s explanation based on what you deem too heavy for the passages but you haven t addressed why you feel that way you can say it s a vain attempt to reconcile the contradiction but that doesn t tell me it didn t happen nor have you shown why you reject that possibility questions is matthew lying or is luke lying or are they both lying or are either or both of them misinformed why do you think there is such an alleged contradiction i do not think you have ever told us what you believe in this respect db at present though mr decenso only asks two questions of me you claim acts and matthew contradict one another in representing judas death i ask you again to provide evidence that matthew stated judas died in the hanging you claim that the pieces of silver in matthew that judas threw down in the temple and the chief priests used is the reward of iniquity in acts that pictures judas in some way purchasing a field with therefore there is a contradiction prove that the pieces of silver and the reward of iniquity are one and the same actually i find question to be a rather stupid request but i will answer it because he now restricts himself to two points first i would point out that hanging is a very efficient manner for ending a life in fact it is a bit of a fluke when someone survives hanging except in fantasy cowboy movies and even then it usually referred to as an attempted hanging my reply i work at an agency that investigates child abuse and neglect today i got a call re a child that attempted suicide by hanging himself because his mother is on crack he failed in his attempt and is in a child s psych ward at a local hospital hanging attempts are not always successful to assume that because most hangings are successful this one was also is begging the question if i may quote you last night listening to the bible answer man broadcast the christian research institute s show one of the scholars on there used several of these terms that you use i am not all that familiar with them the man on the bam show teaches comparative religion and logic it was interesting db this is so prevalent that so that to say a man hung himself with no other qualifiers is synonymous with stating that he killed himself my reply qualifiers are important at times as we ll see in an ot passage i ll mention below does hanging always have this outcome did matthew who is the only source we have re judas hanging himself state that judas died as a result to say it s synonymous means it has the same meaning as a boy age hung himself but he lived this is only one of probably thousands of documented cases we can discover db now i am not alone in this thought in fact since mr decenso so respects christian scholarly including greek scholars opinion i did some research my reply thank you dave db interestingly not one of the christian references i read interpreted the hanging as being anything but a fatal suicide my reply above mine so it s ok to use christian sources to back your points what about tony s position do you value it or even consider it as a valid possibility also is it possible that the sources you read may be wrong or lying or deceived in other parts of their books if so should we do as we have done with archer toss them to the side and not value anything they say including their interpretation of the hanging of judas i am sure you would find some errors and maybe even some deception in those sources you also noted they interpreted the hanging as meaning he died although that is very possibly true do you find that in the text itself remember that s the first criteria we must examine db this included the biblical knowledge commentary by woodward and zuck my reply which i own it s a good source of commentary info but not inerrant db the interpreters on volume commentary on the bible by laydon the one volume bible commentary by j r dunelow word meanings of the testament ralph earl the abingdon bible commentary published by abingdon harpers bible commentary by william neal actually i could have presented many more as well my reply i appreciate your doing this research dave maybe we are getting somewhere in how we both should approach these alleged contradictions more in depth study db in each case these references specifically describe that the interpretation of matt as successful suicide and thus i can only conclude that the greek word apagchw ie hang oneself is translated as a successful hanging my reply above mine no you can t only conclude this although as tony says this was a highly probable outcome but matthew does not state death as being a result the greek word is apagcho matthew is it s only occurrence in the new testament in the septuagint the greek translation of the ot used at the time of jesus it s only used in samuel now when ahithophel saw that his advice was not followed he saddled a donkey and arose and went home to his house to his city then he put his household in order and hanged himself and died and he was buried in his father s tomb notice that not only is it stated that ahithophel hanged himself gr sept apagcho but it explicitly adds and died here we have no doubt of the result in matthew we are not explicitly told judas died also there is nothing in the greek to suggest success or failure it simply means hang oneself db but mr decenso you are more than welcome to disagree and show more reputable christian scholars that insist that the hanging was not successful my reply above mine reputable you mean ones that have never erred as far as insisting that the hanging was unsuccessful that can t be done even by me as i said in an earlier post although i still agree with tony s exegesis as being the most probable explanation regarding judas death taking into account several criteria i ve recently noticed some new things in matthew mat then he threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed and went and hanged himself but the chief priests took the silver pieces and said it is not lawful to put them into the treasury because they are the price of blood and they consulted together and bought with them the potter s field to bury strangers in therefore that field has been called the field of blood to this day first of all notice that the text does not say that judas died as a result of hanging all it says is that he went and hanged himself luke however in acts tells us that and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out this is a pretty clear indication along with the other details given in acts peter s speech the need to pick a new apostle etc that at least after judas fall he was dead so the whole concept that matthew and luke both recount judas death is highly probable but not clear cut i also wrote my reply here we have a stickler dave that i have to say i just recently noticed let s look at the passage in matthew mat saying i have sinned by betraying innocent blood and they said what is that to us you see to it mat then he threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed and went and hanged himself mat but the chief priests took the silver pieces and said it is not lawful to put them into the treasury because they are the price of blood mat and they consulted together and bought with them the potter s field to bury strangers in mat therefore that field has been called the field of blood to this day notice verse then he went and hanged himself matthew does not say judas died does it should we assume he died as a result of the hanging what does acts say act now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out act for it is written in the book of psalms let his dwelling place be desolate and let no one live in it and let another take his office here we may have a graphic explanation of judas death so my line of reasoning to dispel your contradiction myth re the two accounts of judas death is this matthew doesn t necessarily explain how judas died he does say judas hanged himself but he didn t specifically say judas died in the hanging incident however acts seems to show us his graphic demise therefore there is no contradiction between matthew and acts re judas death my reply we do know from matthew that he did hang himself and acts probably records his death although it s possible and plausible that he fell from the hanging and hit some rocks thereby bursting open i can no longer assume that to be the case therefore no contradiction matthew did not say judas died as a result of the hanging did he most scholars believe he probably did but i quoted all that to show that i highly regard the scholars explanations but in looking at the texts initially we can t assume judas died it is however highly probable db by the way while all agree that judas died from the hanging the books had different ways of dealing with the contradiction we are discussing one simply ignored it entirely and simply referred back to matthew s version as the correct version in both matt and acts the biblical knowledge commentary suggested the hypotheses that judas hung and then when he rotted his belly exploded which doesn t explain his headlong fall or that his branch or rope broke and he fell to his death and his gut gushed out which doesn t explain how a hanging man would fall headlong rather than feet first my reply the outcome of any fall is dependent upon many factors how high the person was suspended before the fall any obstructions such as tree branches that may have deviated the fall how steep an incline of rocky surfaces the victim fell upon thus possibly rolling or bouncing of several rocks etc in a superficial examination of the acts passage and the matthew passage we are not given a lot of info on the geographical specifics but tony in the above quoted post gave us some a possible reconstruction would be this judas hanged himself on a tree on the edge of a precipice that overlooked the valley of hinnom after he hung there for some time the limb of the tree snapped or the rope gave way and judas fell down the ledge mangling his body in the process the fall could have been before or after death as either would fit this explanation this possibility is entirely natural when the terrain of the valley of hinnom is examined from the bottom of the valley you can see rocky terraces to feet in height and almost perpendicular there are still trees around the ledges and a rocky pavement at the bottom therefore it is easy to conclude that judas struck one of the jagged rocks on this way down tearing his body open db now truthfully i do not see what is comforting about matthew confusing the source of the potter s field prophesy but on the other hand the author is correct matthew does make that confusion of course a biblical inerrantist who claim that every word of the bible is guaranteed true by god will have to thereby add one more contradiction to the death of judas ie where the prophesy of the potter s field came from my reply please when we are done with this study on his death remind me to discuss this with you db as to your second question mr decenso you ask how we could be sure that the money with which judas purchased the land was indeed for the betrayal rather than some other source i would point out that in acts where it specifically mention the reward of iniquity acts it also specifically mentions what act of iniquity they were talking about ie acts concerning judas who was guide to those who arrested jesus now i would point out that when the bible describes an act of iniquity and then immediately discusses the reward of iniquity it would be rather inane to suggest that it was an action of iniquity other than the one discussed my reply dave we are getting somewhere aren t we act and in those days peter stood up in the midst of the disciples altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty and said act men and brethren this scripture had to be fulfilled which the holy spirit spoke before by the mouth of david concerning judas who became a guide to those who arrested jesus act for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry act now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out act and it became known to all those dwelling in jerusalem so that field is called in their own language akel dama that is field of blood act for it is written in the book of psalms let his dwelling place be desolate and let no one live in it and let another take his office notice that in verse the word iniquity is not used rather it states that judas became a guide to those who arrested jesus but the writer did not stop there vs for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry what part did judas play in their ministry joh this he said not that he cared for the poor but because he was a thief and had the money box and he used to take what was put in it joh for some thought because judas had the money box that jesus had said to him buy those things we need for the feast or that he should give something to the poor so now we know what part judas played he was a treasurer per se right after peter stated that judas played a part in this ministry treasurer according to john then luke adds the parenthetical explanation of wages of iniquity money that should have been put into the ministry but was stolen by judas to purchase a field i believe this is a better exegetical explanation of what the wages of iniquity are what do you think dave db now since i have given you clear answers and even references perhaps you could unequivocally state what type of inerrantist you are instead of asking me what type i think you are as you did to mr joslin my reply i will gladly admit that i am a complete inerrantist although i do not have that big a problem with the limited inerrancy view frank if one wished to contend with him he could not answer him one time out of a thousand job
talk.religion.misc	re spreading christianity re christian extremist kills doctor in article c pua k u mailer cc fsu edu dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu darius lecointe writes david r sacco dsav andrew cmu edu writes not to be too snide about it but i think this christianity must be a very convenient religion very maliable and suitable for any occassion since it seems one can take it any way one wants to go with it and follow whichever bits one pleases and reinterpret the bits that don t match with one s desires it is in fact so convenient that were i capable of believing in a god i might consider going for some brand of christianity the only difficulty left then of course is picking which sect to join there are just so many dean kaflowitz yes christianity is convenient following the teachings of jesus christ and the ten commandments is convenient trying to love in a hateful world is convenient turning the other cheek is convenient so convenient that it is burdensome at times some christians take a discount off the ten commandments sunday cannot be substituted for the sabbath make that where did i see that poll recently about the very religious and adultery was it this newsgroup or alt atheism or some other place dean kaflowitz
talk.religion.misc	re new biblical contradictions fallaciously answered judas i produced an error last week about chorion by the way mr decenso you really should have looked in the index of your bauer arndt gingrich greek lexicon you would have found that the word in acts for lot is kleros not chorion as stated by mr archer and nowhere in the very large discussion of kleros in done the to theological dictionary of the new testament by bromley is the meaning burial plot discussed it discusses the forms of kleros eg kleros kleroo etc and the various meanings of kleros eg plot of land and inheritance but mentions nothing about chorion or burial plot why does this not surprise me thus it would seem to be a very good thing you dumped archer as a reference i was wrong i admit that i do not have a handle on greek grammar and thus confused kleros the second to last word in acts as being the plot of land discussed in actuality it is chorion which is the last word acts unfortunately my greek dictionary does not discuss chorion so i cannot report as to the nuances of the word i abhor publishing trash i abhor it of myself even more than i do from others but since i do not present myself as an authority on the subject i do not feel dishonest though i do openly admit ignorance and incompetence in this example thus i felt honor bound to do a better set of research specifically on the word first it should be noted that greek grammar is not as tough as i first assumed it is not nontrivial by any means and i still am not competent with it but it is not as opaque as i had thought it turns out that while the index for the bauer arndt gingrich greek lexicon renders each verse in order each word within a verse is put in greek alphabetical order thus while the the meaning of the verse is decipherable the syntax is far from clear on the other hand a greek english intralinear bible makes things a lot more comprehendable and yes the word for field in acts is indeed chorion now i ve checked several greek english lexicons greek english lexicon of the new testament louw and nida robinson s greek and english lexicon of the new testament greek english lexicon of the new testament grimm word study concordance tynsdale a greek english lexicon of the new testament and other early christian writings bauer arndt gingrich the new analytical greek lexicon perschbacher in each case the meaning of the word chorion was given variously as a space place region district field area country place land farm estate a bit of tillage and similar meanings nowhere do any of these books mention anything about grave as some of these books go into great detail i would be very surprised to find that these books are all inadequate and mr archer is the only competent scholar in greek i think it more likely that mr archer s investigations into contradictions to be once again as your friend said it lacking in substance and thus archer is again shown worthless as an expert witness by the way mr decenso i would have honorably presented my results on this matter even if i had found them to support mr archer s contentions by the way among these lexicons eg robinson s is the definition of agros the word used in matthew to describe the field bought the word agros is defined as a field in the country chorion is specifically noted as a synonym to agros this is significant as it is evidence of how silly bullinger s exegisis was which stated that the word for field in matthew ie agros is different from the word for field in acts ie chorion and thus we must be talking about two different fields of course you already admit how stupid bullinger s exegisis is but this was a small serendipity which drives the point home so as of now unless mr decenso show compelling reasons to believe otherwise eg a reputable scholar with reputable references i consider this particular issue closed see mr decenso now you can go on to answer questions about the denials of peter the day of the crucifixion tyre and the fact that the author of matthew quoted from the wrong prophet in discussing the potter s field later dave butler precise knowledge is the only true knowledge and he who does not teach exactly does not teach at all henry ward beecher american clergyman as recorded by george seldes
talk.religion.misc	re new biblical contradictions still not answered judas mr decenso in spite of requiring scholarly opinion on the hanging of judas rejects that the scholarly opinion of the those scholars and then rephrases those scholars opinion on the subject we do know from matthew that he did hang himself and acts probably records his death although it s possible and plausible that he fell from the hanging and hit some rocks thereby bursting open i can no longer assume that to be the case therefore no contradiction matthew did not say judas died as a result of the hanging did he most scholars believe he iprobably did but i quoted all that to show that i highly regard the scholars explanations but in looking at the texts initially we can t assume judas died it is however highly probable and also there is nothing in the greek to suggest success or failure it simply means hang oneself actually if you do further research as to the greek word apacgw you will find that it does denote success those scholars did indeed have an excellent reason to assume that the suicide was successful as i pointed out i recently checked several lexicons greek english lexicon of the new testament louw and nida robinson s greek and english lexicon of the new testament greek english lexicon of the new testament grimm word study concordance tynsdale a greek english lexicon of the new testament and other early christian writings bauer arndt gingrich the new analytical greek lexicon perschbacher a couple simply stated hanged oneself and a couple were more explicit and stated that apacgw means specifically kill yourself by hanging a couple also noted that the meaning of one the root words for apacgw is strangle throttle or choke which pretty much invalidates the guy who suggested to david joslin that judas was hung upside down one of the best references though robinson s greek and english lexicon of the new testament not only stated the translation it gave both the root words the literal translation related greek words which use the same roots and also other presented specific examples of the word in greek literature to give further context the word apagchw has two root words gchw is the to strangle root and the root word apo means literally away this root words is included in words which denote a transition it can mean a transition in place eg the greek word apagello means to send a message apo can also denote a change in state and specifically the change from life to death robinson specifically makes comparison to the word apokteiuo which means to kill in literal meaning the word apacgw means to throttle strangle to put out of the way and implicitly denotes a change in life state ie away from life to death so while the word apacgw does mean to hang it specifically denotes a death as well thus robinson is quite specific when he state that it means to hang oneself to end one s life by hanging he then notes the the use of apacgw in homers odessy to denote context he presents that example of apacgw as being used to explicitly mean suicide by hanging now since there is a perfectly good word for strangling without the added denotation of death and as you insist that the bible was written by god and every word is precicely correct you are stuck with the complete meaning of apacgw ie since the word apacgw was used then death is denoted as the result by the way i note that mr decenso also presents an example of apacgw in the septuagint the greek translation of the ot used at the time of jesus it s only used in samuel now when ahithophel saw that his advice was not followed he saddled a donkey and arose and went home to his house to his city then he put his household in order and hanged himself and died and he was buried in his father s tomb notice that not only is it stated that ahithophel hanged himself gr sept apagcho but it explicitly adds and died here we have no doubt of the result in matthew we are not explicitly told judas died note mr decenso as you say the septuagint was a translation from hebrew to greek and you have not shown the original meaning of the hebrew ie the the hebrew say and died and thus whether it was simply echoed in the greek it should also be pointed out that regardless of the added and died the correct translation would still be apacgw as the man did indeed die from strangulation redundant but correct further we have evidence that the septuagint was repeatedly rewritten and reedited which included versions which contradicted each other and such editing was not even necessarily executed by greeks thus i am not sure that you can use the septuagint as it now stands as a paragon of ancient greek so what you really need to prove your point mr decenso is an example in ancient greek of someone committing apacgw and surviving otherwise i would see you as simply making worthless assertions without corresponding evidence now i would note mr decenso that everytime i go out of my way to research it one of your apparently contrived exegisis i pretty much find it false thus i think that if you are going to add to the text something over and above what the source clearly says then you had better have an explicit greek or historical source to justify it by the way as to mr rose s statement about trees around the potter s field there are still trees around the ledges and a rocky pavement at the bottom unless mr rose can show that these trees are two thousand years old or that there are year old stumps there or has a thousand year old description of the area which mentions such trees then it is inappropriate for him to assert that the present placement of trees prove the location of the trees two thousand years ago after all things change now as to your other argument ie that the money judas used is not the same as the silvers as to your second question mr decenso you ask how we could be sure that the money with which judas purchased the land was indeed for the betrayal rather than some other source i would point out that in acts where it specifically mention the reward of iniquity acts it also specifically mentions what act of iniquity they were talking about ie acts concerning judas who was guide to those who arrested jesus now i would point out that when the bible describes an act of iniquity and then immediately discusses the reward of iniquity it would be rather inane to suggest that it was an action of iniquity other than the one discussed notice that in verse the word iniquity is not used rather it states that judas became a guide to those who arrested jesus but the writer did not stop there vs for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry what part did judas play in their ministry true peter or the author of acts does not specifically call judas betrayal an iniquity but for that matter neither does john specifically call judas actions an iniquity either further john did not say that judas took the money box but rather said some thought that because judas had the money box jesus was telling him buy what we need for the feast or that he should give something to the poor so after receiving the morsel he immediately went out and it was night note that it is said that judas left it does not say that he took the money box thus when i see your explanation it still seems to me you would choose the a an unproven iniquity mentioned by another author in a different book written at a different time over the iniquity explicitly mentioned by the author of acts i find this forced and contrived of course this particular argument becomes moot since we have have seen evidence that apacgw means suicide you see since judas hanging was successful he could not have spent the money mentioned in john because matthew and mark explicitly say the betrayal was on the high holy day ie passover and thus he could not have spent the money before killing himself the next day thus the money which bought the field of blood would have to have been the pieces of silver of course he got the pieces of silver that night as well and thus couldn t have spent that either oh dear i believe that the house of cards is comming down maybe we should at this point discuss now whether jesus was crucified on friday or saturday as that is now part of the argument about judas by the way as to where the prophesy of the potter s field came from ie the mention of it in matthew you say please when we are done with this study on his death remind me to discuss this with you i am reminding you now to discuss it now it s all part of the same verse we are discussing and i wish you would quit procrastinating and sidestepping these issues later dave butler a wise man proportions his belief to the evidence david hume philosopher an inquiry concerning human understanding ps i would note again that you are not stating that that bible is not possibly inerrant you are stating that it is inerrant since you have been by your own admission presenting merely possible reconciliations i of course don t rate them that highly then the best you can do is say that the bible is possibly inerrant not that it is inerrant
talk.religion.misc	re imaginary friends info and experiences in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu kditto nyx cs du edu kimborly ditto writes concerniong this thread has anyone ever seen drop dead fred this movie seems to tipify the imaginary friend theme rather well i loved the movie as i had an imaginary friend when i was a kid and it borught back great memories seriously if you have a chance see drop dead fred it ll make ya think especially the end blessings kim patrick brosnan patb bnr co uk mcsun ukc stc patb northern telecomm oakleigh rd south london n hb phone or x oh flash i love you but we ve only got hours to save the universe
talk.religion.misc	god s promise of peace psa the lord is good to all and his tender mercies are over all his works jer and i will dash them one against another even the fa thers and the sons together saith the lord i will not pity nor spare nor have mercy but destroy them
talk.religion.misc	god s promise to the righteous ps the righteous shall flourish like the palm tree isa the righteous perisheth and no man layeth it to heart
talk.religion.misc	re christian extremist kills doctor regard hpsdde sdd hp com adrienne regard writes in article mar pony ingres com dan ingres com a rose arose writes seriously though griffen didn t save the lives of children and he did destroy the life of a man so on the most superficial of levels he s scum i almost agree but griffen is not scum scum has no guilt or freedom to choose anything griffen does god did not make scum when he made griffen he made a precious person and this person chose to do wrong the same goes for dr gunn but if you are to examine it more closely griffen would have preferred that these children were born yet after their birth did griffen have any assistance to offer them did griffen intend to support them educate them raise them up to be useful citizens did he have any intent whatsoever to help these children after birth here s the real problem americans have become so insensitive to the needs of others and so completely wrapped up in themselves that they cannot see straight or think clearly enough to make even the slightest and most obvious moral decisions based on reality if a man abandons a woman to care for their child on her own he is not considered to be a very respectable or decent man by anyone this man has fled his responsibility has behaved like a lazy coward and has turned away from his responsibility to his wife and child however if a woman decides to kill her unborn child to release her burden she is not thought of in the same way when the man abandons the woman suffers but the child is free to grow up and live a happy and normal life when the woman abandons the child is diced or killed with saline or vacuumed out and the man has no choice and the man sometimes suffers so badly that he wishes he could trade places with his child ths root of this whole problem is selfishness the arrogance that says my feelings and desires are supreme and your well being is not worth dung and when you come down to it this is the substance of what hell is made of it s the reason a loving god can throw selfish people to the devil and his demons for all of eternity let any one of us unrepentant into heaven and we ll ruin it the first chance we get now i don t really know the answer to these questions but i ve got a real good guess and it s probably right and i wouldn t call that benevolent either it is a move in the right direction as it is now we don t see our responsibility because we kill it and get it out of sight the media backs us completely real responsibility does not sell the only responsibility that sells in the marketplace is that which is just enough to make us feel responsible without showing anything that might show us our own true irresponsibility we want to feel like good people but we want nothing with being good people just give me the freedom to say i m good and the rest of the world can burn rape and kill my children and throw my parents to the places where poor old folks rot until they re dead i ll hate my brother and sister if i wish and i ll cheat on my wife or husband screw the government because it screws me and don t talk to me about giving to the church because church people are all a bunch of money grubbing hypocrites but i m a good person at least i admit what i do at least i love myself and we all know that is the greatest love in the world not that a man lay down his life for his brother that sounds too christian at the root this is the substance of what hell is made of we ve become a self indulgant backslidden society no longer responsible to our children to our parents to our families to our government or to our god this is the root behind justification of every evil of every corruption in government of every slanderous remark of every lie and of every murder society cannot continue to live like this long it will have to destroy itsself soon and perhaps in the end that will be the biggest blessing this world can hope to see why do people see so much evil in trying to turn this situation around i deplore the horrible crime of child murder we want prevention not merely punishment we must reach the root of the evil it is practiced by those whose inmost souls revolt from the dreadful deed no mater what the motive love of ease or a desire to save from suffering the unborn innocent the woman is awfully guilty who commits the deed but oh thrice guilty is he who drove her to the desperation which impelled her to the crime susan b anthony the revolution july
talk.religion.misc	scarlet horse of babylon was daemons in article qilgninnrko lynx unm edu blowfish leo unm edu ron writes its easy is the neighbor of the beast at the beast lives at the end of a cul de sac r i noticed this dead horse in your keywords line is this the famous scarlet horse of babylon that the beast that s for you illuminatti rides on in those wonderful mediaeval manuscripts if so i fear your announcement that the old girl is dead may be premature i bet on her to place in the th race at the downs last sunday and she slid in a bad fifth so she is not dead she is just comatose like god that way i suppose ninja gourmet will fight for food jim peavler my opinions do not exist peavler plk af mil that is why they are called albuquerque nm my opinions
talk.religion.misc	re language and agreement m mwunix mitre org james meritt writes mr meritt please state explicitly the inductive argument which leads you to conclude mr tice thinks it ok to take biblical quotes out of context in some other t r m articles also please explain why you rely on inductive reasoning with its implicit uncertainty in determining mr tice s opinions when the man is himself clearly available for questioning finally please indicate whether you agree yes or no with the following statement the word agree and the phrase not disagree are identical in meaning
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is oxymoronic andrew a houghton writes i m still waiting to hear a good response from a christian type how is christ s word as quoted by paul reconciled with current christian beliefs almost one third of the world s population claim to be christian but any similarity between their beliefs and lifestyle to the first century model is purely coincidental at luke it states nevertheless when the son of man returns will he really find the faith on the earth jack
talk.religion.misc	objective values v scientific accuracy was re after years can we say that christian morality is frank i tried to mail this but it bounced it is fast moving out of t a scope but i didn t know if t a was the only group of the three that you subscribed to apologies to regular t a folks in article qjahh mrs horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes science the real world has its basis in values not the other way round as you would wish it you must be using values to mean something different from the way i see it used normally and you are certainly using science like that if you equate it to the real world science is the recognition of patterns in our perceptions of the universe and the making of qualitative and quantitative predictions concerning those perceptions it has nothing to do with values as far as i can see values are well they are what i value they are what i would have rather than not have what i would experience rather than not and so on objective values are a set of values which the proposer believes are applicable to everyone if there is no such thing as objective value then science can not objectively be said to be more useful than a kick in the head i don t agree science is useful insofar as it the predictions mentioned above are accurate that is insofar as what i think will be the effect on my perceptions of a time lapse with or without my input to the universe versus what my perceptions actually turn out to be but values are about whether i like in the loosest sense of the word the perceptions simple theories with accurate predictions could not objectively be said to be more useful than a set of tarot cards i don t see why usefulness in science is synonomous with accuracy period tarot predictions are not useful because they are not accurate or can t be shown to be accurate science is useful because it is apparently accurate values objective or otherwise are beside the point no tommy
talk.religion.misc	re food for thought on tyre king ctron com john e king writes not exactly the prophesy clearly implies that people would still be living in the area but by the same token it would never be rebuilt obviously if people are still there they would live in houses correct their nets implies a fishing village this is exactly what it has become a far cry from its original position of stature looking at we find that during roman times tyre vied with sidon for first place in the intellectual life of the period that tyre was the seat of a christian bishop eventually with dioceses under it that the most magnificent church of its kind in all phoenecia was the basilica built in tyre ca that tyre was well known for its exports of glassware wine white marble and dyed cloth that tyre along with other seaports provided outlets for south arabian indian and even chinese trade that tyre had to accomodate its growing population by following a perpendicular rather than horizontal line of growth because it was running out of land to build on that tyre established colonies of its own none of this sounds like a small fishing village by any stretch of the imagination centuries later under the abbasids tyre had opulent and flourishing bazaars and buildings of stories during this period tyre was noted for its export of sugar beads and as of old glassware during the crusades tyre was the second most flourishing city held by franks there is a lot more but i got tired of writing in we read the following description of modern lebanon other major cities in lebanon include tripoli sidon tyre baalbek and zahlah my emphasis this source also discusses the impact of the lebanese civil war and the israeli military actions on the trading ports of tyre and sidon it notes that after israel s withdrawel in tyre appeared to enjoy a revival of its local economy if tyre is such an insignificant little fishing village at present why is it always called a city or above a major city why does it show up on all the maps when population figures for cities in lebanon are given why is tyre always one of the cities on the list even if the list is only a dozen cities long philip k hitti lebanon in history from the earliest times to the present ny st martins federal research division library of congress lebanon a country study edited by thomas collelo in the early s tyre had over people so far i ve seen stated figurers ranging from to let s assume the latter one is correct by modern standards we are talking about a one horse town a one horse town sounds like a lot of work for one horse anyway tyre is connected by roads to the mainland they may even use cars these days the encyclopedia britannica says pop est most other references give figures in the thousand range one atlas gives the population of tyre as the same source give comparatively high figures for sidon and beirut also so i doubt that it is a typo perhaps these were figures for the cities and their surrounding areas i don t doubt that the population of tyre has fluctuated over the last few decades in particular the israeli military action hurt tyre quite a bit after alex the g it fell once more in the s i believe what other times did it fall that you were thinking of to egypt bce to the seleucids bce rome bce after rome it fell to various arab contingents until ce when it was captured in the crusades it was then recaptured again by the muslims in ce and subsequently pillaged then the french turks british and today lebanon i thought you were talking about times that tyre was destroyed don t most if not all of these apply not just to tyre but to the other cities in the area sidon for example can you make a case for tyre having been singled out well it recovered enough to have a thriving commerce in the dye tyrian purple in roman times this is correct but they were under roman domination and the majority of the created wealth was siphoned off the prophesy hold true they had a good deal of autonomy under the seleucids from tyre receiv ed the rights of autonomy from antiochus ephiphanes and from bc onward enjoy ed complete autonomy she started a large series of coins occasionally in gold the descriptions of tyre under the romans don t seem to fit your characterization either and under the abbasids it seems to have been allowed to flourish i still think you are stretching when you try to describe tyre as having been nothing but a small fishing village who is josh mcdowell a christian apologist whose standards of scholarship are quite low he happens to quote the same source you quote nina jidejian tyre through the ages beirut dar el mashreq publishers the same sentence in fact he defends the fulfillment of the prophecy using the same argument you are using an argument that i haven t seen in print anywhere else which is why i jumped to the conclusion that you were quoting josh i tried to find the jidejian book but it isn t listed in books in print can you tell me more about it her descriptions are so much at odds with everything else i ve read i m curious to know why dj
talk.religion.misc	ex gay was homosexuality fact fiction tony while i honestly believe you believe you are doing a good thing by posting that piece of propaganda i believe the more people believe that the more they will feel justified in their blatant persecution of gay oriented people i have seen the film called the gay agenda and along with my church we found it to be horrifying not because of what was actually shown cleaver use of editting can create any image one wants to portray rather becaseu we are familia familiar with how widely it was actively distributed and how many naive people are actually believing the garbage found within it the truth is that neither you nor i can fully speak for anyone who calls themself gay but knowing as many as i do and knowing their testimonies and witnessing thier faith and life i have to say that the report you posted is a very biased report something obviously claimed against gays as well the truth is that unless you are innately gay you cannot know what harm you are causing i speak as an abolitionist who supports affirming gay rights in our society i do not support wild sex or any other misrepresentations perpetrated by christian fundamentalist extremists but i know people who are not the sexual deviants your report paints them to be it is no mistake that the apa removed homosexuality from it s list of mental illnesses it is also no mistake that there are many christians and homophobes who long to bring it back to the list i do not feel threatened by gays i don t understand why others are the following is an article concerning two of the more popular ex gay min istries exodus international homosexuals anonymous the founder of an ex gay support group chooses homo over hetero by robert pela from gay oriented magazine advocate in december david caligiuri received one of the advocate s homophobia rewaa awards the a prayer a day keeps the lust away citation as director of free indeed a national ex gay ministry caligiuri was singled out for offering discontented gays and lesbians a way out of the homosexual death style through prayer i d like to give the award back caligiuri now laughs i m no longer deserve it caligiuri s eight year involvement with the national ex gay movement peaked with his founding of the phoenix chapter of homosexuals anonymous ha as well as free indeed he has since abandoned his pulpit and now says that the ex gay movement is a fruitless effort based on deception there s no reality in it he says i was selling a product and my product was a lie headed up by national ministries like exodus international and courage the organizations of the ex gay movement rely on the tenents of born again christianity to convince disatisfied homosexuals usually young gay men who are just coming out that they can shed their sexuality by suppressing their sexual urges and embracing christianity we offer support to people who are seeking to leave the sin of homosexuality explains bob davies director of exodus he ventures that about of those seeking to abandon their homo sexuality are men anybody who is involved in the ex gay ministry is misguided and is wasting their time says lisa seeley a former redeemed lesbian who worked with caligiuri as ha and appeared with him on the sally jessy raphael show these organizations are for people who are spiritually and emotionally wounded it s possible to change your identity or your behavior says sex educator brian mcnaught author of on being gay but it s really impossible to change your orientation these people are no longer calling themselves gay but they continue to have same sex erotic feelings caligiuri says he founded free indeed after an ominous week in when all hell broke loose in his personal life a few days after his lover ended both their romance and their business partnership caligiuri was sexually assaulted by a man he picked up in a bar i was really drunk he recalls and i went home with this guy he tied me up and raped me he left me tied up all night and the next morning he raped me again when caligiuri was eventually freed by the attacker he returned home to the home he shared with his ex lover he had another man there with him caligiuri recalls i thought at this time if this is what being gay is about i don t want to be this way anymore caligiuri vowed that if he could find a way out he would share his discovery with others he organized an antigay contingent to demonstrate at phoenix s gay pride parade in june and a few months later free indeed held its first public protest at a meeting to promote a gay civil rights ordinance free indeed members loudly blasted gays telling them ther were sinners headed for hell free indeed began receiving about a hundred telephone calls a week thanks in part to a deceptive listing in the local yellow pages we were listed under lesbian and gay alternative services caligiuri says so people thought we were a gay information switchboard people would call to find out where the local bars were and we d preach to them about the sins of homo sexuality ruses like this are typical of the movement caligiuri says adding they ll do anything to reach these people david used to go on radio and say really stupid things recalls peter kelly a counselor at phoenix s catholic diocese aids program like that he knew he was gay when he started wearing pastel colors caligiuri s family first found out about his ministry when they saw him on raphael s syndicated talk show in they were relieved he recalls they figured that if they had to have a gay person in the family better that i should be a reformed gay person but caligiuri was hardly reformed by the time i appeared on sally s show i d started having sex with men again men would call our hotline and tell me about thier latest sin sex with their pastor sex with their father i was horny all the time unable to risk going to gay bars where he might be recognized from his numerous television appearances caligiuri says he used to go to bookstores and get blowjobs when he wasn t working the bookstores he was sleeping with other reformed homosexuals i didn t realize it at first but a lot of the ha leaders were having sex with one another caligiuri says we d go to conferences in other cities and we d be paired up in hotel rooms everybody was sleeping with everybody else by the time he appeared on am philadelphia television show in may caligiuri was having anonymous sex a couple times a week when the show s host asked him if he ever acted on temptation his answer was a lie caligiuri s duplicity began to take it s toll on him however he was suffering from chrinic fatigue syndrome and candidiasis a dibilitating yeast infection and this led to his escape from the sect i was too sick to go to church he explains the more time i spent away from those people the more i began to feel like myself i began to remember who i used to be late in caligiuri turned free indeed phone lines over to a local church and closed the ministry s doors i d convinced myself that there is no need in the world for ex gay people he says today caligiuri is studying alternative spiritualities i m interest ed in belief systems that aren t judgemental considering romance but not with a christian and searching for a new project to devote himself to i feel compelled to commit myself to gay causes he says i want to eventually stop feeling guilty about what i did and make up for the damage i may have brought to our community end article caligiuri s tory is by no means unique and i have read several other articles of former leaders and founders of ex gay ministries who have said very similar th similar things fortuantely not all of them have left christianity but have come to realize that god loves them despite the attitudes of others some like chris glaser director of the presbyterian lazarus project of west hollywood presbyterian church have actually been working with the gay community to bring them into the sheepfold of christ and encouraging real ethical values of sexuality within the sphere of being gay i have also as i said talked and become and become close friends with many who once attended such groups as love in action and others who either once claimed to have been reformed or who were too honest with themselves to live a lie no matter who was disappointed in them some were even encouraged to marry as a way of sealing their new heterosexuality only to eventually start hitting the bars bathhouses and bookstores since these were usually activities under the concealment of night and one night stands of promiscuous behavior meant no continuous sin through a committed relationship this is a horrible trap which the church has dumped on the backs of the truly gay oriented people and the very inno cent victims in these cases are the wives and children of such marriages yet the church insists that there are only two options they are willing to allow gay people heterosexuality or celebacy this is sad what is also mrtifying is in the cases of those who cannot suppress their desires and fear for thier sanity in such a mixed up confusion that the church forces on them they may even opt for suicide or surgical dampering of the brain functions in the past lobotomies and heavey drug suppressants were common place there are now becoming available more and more literature on the threat of coercive christianity toward gays such as sylvia pennington s ex gays there are none and others there are also a great many fact based books being written to help people trapped in this confusion such as maury johnston s gays under grace and chris glaser s come hom i seriously recommend those for people seeking help for this persecution and self acceptance thank you
talk.religion.misc	re food for thought on tyre in article qh m inn pu ctron news ctron com king ctron com john e king wrote not exactly the prophesy clearly implies that people would still be living in the area but by the same token it would never be rebuilt obviously if people are still there they would live in houses correct their nets implies a fishing village this is exactly what it has become a far cry from its original position of stature let s see if alexander destroyed tyre and people move back and they construct houses and after a while people live there and still call it tyre it is not considered to be rebuilt instead it s considered to be just some people that got together for fishing and they needed houses place so far i ve seen stated figurers ranging from to let s assume the latter one is correct by modern standards we are talking about a one horse town sigh i was never born in a city then my home town has people i have to consult my city and inform them that it s from now a fishing village when this city kristinestad was founded in the th century about people lived there so the norms were even more bizarre for dumb swedish queens who founded cities along the coast of finland i would like to know why paul thought is was worth mentioning the small fishing place of tyre in acts again maybe he was a keen fisherman and wanted to visit the shores of tyre cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re apr god s promise in john brian lpl arizona edu brian ceccarelli writes brian kendig contorts it can not be a light which cleanses if it is tainted with the blood of an innocent man now showing how brian kendig is in the dark of the most fundamental basic of the old testament concepts like santification and lev must be foreign to you too bad you are not interested in understanding too bad you prefer blurting folly even to your own shame lev for the life of the flesh is in the blood and i have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul the old testament was very big on the eye for an eye business it makes sense that leviticus would support physical injury to repay moral wrongdoing i know about sanctification i ve been taught all about it in sunday school catechism class and theology classes but even after all that i still can t accept it maybe i m still not understanding it or maybe i m just understanding it all too well from the bottom of my heart i know that the punishment of an innocent man is wrong i ve tried repeatedly over the course of several years to accept it but i just can t if this means that i can t accept the premise that a god who would allow this is perfectly good then so be it what ignorance you can show us next i guess i ll wait till tomorrow if you can explain to me why the death of jesus was a good thing then i would be very glad to hear it and you might even convert me be warned however that i ve heard all the most common arguments before and they just don t convince me brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun bskendig netcom com de ceux que j ai vus j ose croire n etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent the meaning of life si je ne vaux pas mieux au moins je suis autre is that it ends rousseau
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes plus questions for you why do subjectivists relativists nihilists get so het up about the idea that relativism is better than objectivism to the degree that relativism is a more accurate decription of the truth than is objectivism it provides more power and ability to control events assuming for the moment that morals are relative then two relativists can recognize that neither has a lock on the absolute truth and they can proceed to negotiate a workable compromise that produces the desired results assuming that there is an absolute morality two disagreeing objectivists can either be both wrong or just one of them right there is no room for compromise once you beleive in absolute morals you must accept that you are amoral or that everyone who disagrees with you is amoral given a choice between a peaceful compromise or endless contention i d say that compromise seems to be better ray fischer convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth ray netcom com than lies friedrich nietzsche
talk.religion.misc	ex gays follow up i would like to apologize for the typos in the previous post in retrospect i would also like to quote another source douglas c haldeman from his book homosexuality therapy ineffective recently the founders of yet another prominent ex gay ministry exodus international denounced their conversion therapy procedures as ineffective michael busse and gary cooper cofounders of exodus international and lovers for years were involved with the organization from to the program was described by these men as ineffective not one person was healed they stated that the program often exacerbated already prominent feelings of guilt and personal failure among the counselees many were driven to suicidal thoughts as a result of the failed reparative therapy the previous article quoted in the last posting is from the advocate june called the ex ex gay by robert pela some personal thoughts it is of no great astonishment that there is a concerted effort by a major portion of the church to control and mandate change of a minority among its ranks this was the momentum behind the spanish inquisition only all they required was a confession of faith after much torture and then to save their souls they would dispatch them to heaven through death even later the bible was used vigorously to defend slavery oppression and segragation of african americans even to the justification of lynchings today s scholars are just a bit more slick in their approach the tool is still coersion but now it is mostly by means of brainwashing and mind control convincing people that they should see themselves as less than god sees them then maintaining a cultic hold on them until it is felt thier mind conditioning is complete sure no one is physically forced to stay in this reparative therapy but sheer social pressure is enough for many to keep themselves in this new found bondage of self hate as an abolitionist i advocate the abolishment of oppression and persecution against gays in all facets of civil life a person should be judged by the contibution or non contribution to the society in which they live not by some high brow standard of conformity imposed by those who haven t a clue what is in their heart for those who seek more information about gays and groups that accept them please contact your nearest chapter of pflag parents friends of lesbians and gays who will be more than happy to assist you this is a group of people comprised of gays lesbians and bisexuals their parents and friends who have formed a support group for help and understanding try talking to a parent of a gay son or daughter and learn some first hand real life and loving understanding god s love and understanding for gay people is no less abundant thank you pax
talk.religion.misc	apr god s promise in john but as many as received him to them gave he power to become the sons of god even to them that believe on his name john
talk.religion.misc	re food for thought on tyre i was curious to check out how many san jose mercury news mentioned tyre here s the outcome from the research condenced versions copyright san jose mercury news bombings in the two largest cities in southern lebanon killed people and wounded others a car bomb blew up in tyre killing people and wounding a man was killed and five others seriously wounded in an explosion in nabatiye an israeli navy patrol boat attacked and sank a rubber guerrilla boat off southern lebanon early today killing the two men aboard the army command said it said in a communique that a dvora patrol boat opened fire on the motorized rubber dinghy north of tyre after identifying it as hostile the army said no one on the israeli boat was injured the affiliation of the slain guerrillas was not immediately known rival factions of the guerrilla group led by terrorist mastermind abu nidal battled sunday in tyre lebanon with machine guns and rocket propelled grenades killing at least four people and wounding police said lebanon s mainstream shiite muslim militia said thursday that it had uncovered a network of tunnels in a southern lebanese village where it said pro iranian kidnappers had held western hostages officials of the militia amal led local journalists through the catacomb like alleys and showed them two cells with iron doors at the village kawthariyet al siyad near tyre the ancient port city about miles south of beirut the officials said they were certain that u s marine lt col william r higgins was detained there shortly after he was seized by gunmen on a road outside tyre in february anyway i counted articles during these years of reporting i also found out the possible reason why the numbers for the inhabitants of the city is defined between and it seems that tyre is one of the places where people from libanon flee to during more extensive bombings so there s a constant flow of refugees entering and leaving tyre articles mentioned thousands of people entering and leaving this place i counted articles for my home town kristinestad so from now i will consider this place to be a fishing village cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	a treatise on the miracles of muhammad saw part droplet vol no part a d r o p l e t from the vast ocean of the miraculous qur an translations from the arabic and turkish writings of bediuzzaman said nursi the risale i noor vol no part nineteenth letter mu jizat i ahmediye risalesi a treatise on the miracles of muhammad saw saw peace and blessings be upon him in his name allah be he allah glorified there is nothing but glorifies his allah s praise in the name of allah the compassionate the merciful he is who has sent his messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to make it supreme over all religion and sufficient is allah as a witness muhammad is the messenger of allah and those who are with him are firm against the unbelievers and merciful among each other you will see them bowing and prostrating themselves seeking allah s grace and his pleasure their mark is on their face the sing of prostrafion this is their similitude in the torah and indgil the our an since the nineteenth and thirhy first words concerning the mission of muhammad saw prove his prophethood with decisive evidences we assign the verification of that subject to those words as a supplement to them we will merely show here in nineteen signs some of the flashes of that great truth first sign the owner and master of this universe does everything with knowledge disposes every affair with wisdom directs everything all seeingly treats everything all knowingly and arranges in everything with his will and wisdom such causes purposes and uses that are apparent to us since the one who creates knows surely the one who knows will speak since he will speak surely he will speak to those who have consciousness thought and speech since he will speak to those who have thought surely he will speak to humankind whose make up and awareness are more comprehensive of all conscious beings since he will speak to humankind surely he will speak to the most perfect of mankind and those most worthy of address and highest in morality and who are qualified to guide humanity then he will certainly speak to muhammad saw who as friend and foe alike testify is of the highest character and morality and who is obeyed by one fifth of humanity to whose spiritual rule half of the globe has submitted with the radiance of whose light has been illumined the future of mankind for thirteen centuries to whom the believers the luminous segment of humanity renew their oath of allegiance five times a day for whose happiness and peace they pray for whom they call down allah s blessings and bear admiration and love in their hearts certainly he will speak to muhammad saw and indeed he has done so he will make him the messenger and indeed he has done so he will make him the guide for the rest of humanity and indeed he has done so to be continued in a allah your br irfan in islam
talk.religion.misc	re question for those with popular morality in article fo murdoch acc virginia edu pmy vivaldi acc virginia edu pete yadlowsky writes moral driver distinctions deleted in this case the driver does not evolve but simply is there would probably not be any manifestation in an infant because the moral code has not been learnt yet ie the object upon which the driver acts upon without manifestation though how can the driver be detected for all purposes it seems not to exist until moral coding begins actually i agree with your notion of a driver except that i think it s not moral but pre and super moral it is as i mentioned earlier in this thread a primal sense of connection a pre and post natal umbilical the awareness of which is expressed in a partial fragmented way that accomodates and forms in return the language and customs of a given culture this halting pidgin english expression is i think what we come to call morality compare the driver to an urge such as jealousy where there is an urge and an object the jealousy does not technically exist until the object is apparent however the capacity to be jealous is presumably still there even though it is not detectable your description of the unbilical took me three passes to understand but i get the gist and i have to tentatively agree i think our two definitions can sit side by side without too much trouble though i haven t attempted to define the reason behind the moral driver only hinted through the essence of each moral your definition hints that animals are also capable of a similar morality simians have a similar social order to ourselves and it is easy to anthropomorphize with these animals is this possible or have i misunderstood if my suggestion holds true then this is the area where work must be carried out to prevent a moral deterioration of society what kind of work exactly well here you have asked the big question i have a slight suspicion that you were hoping i would say something really contentious in this reply from your final question no not at all i was just wondering if you subscribed to some particular school of psycho social thought and rehabilitation and if perhaps you had a plan i d have been interested to hear it my p s thoughts falls roughly in line with john stuart mill and his writings on utilitarianism i have no particular plan except to do my bit personal ethics and social work my opinion for what it is worth is that the authority for each moral must be increased somehow and that this will probably take several generations to be effective i don t think that the list of morals has changed for society significantly though the authority element may come from our authority figures and roles models see eric berne and his transactional analysis work mavis klein for references and this is what gives rise to a deterioration of moral standards in the long term i ve had some more thoughts on my definitions i ve was thinking that i should add moral character to the list of definitions in order to get a dynamic version of the moral nature ie the interplay of the moral code and associated authorities a suitable analogy might be a graphic equaliser on a hifi system the moral nature being the set of frequencies and the chosen amplitudes and the moral character being the spectrum over time conscience is a little more difficult because i can t define it as the reasoning of a person between actions in the context of his moral nature because conscience seems to cut in most of the time unbidden and often unwanted i think conscience is manifest when a decision is made at a given time which compromises one s moral nature my conscience fits in more with freud s superego plus the moral driver with the stimulous being the urges or freud s id the reasoning that i mentioned before is freud s ego i suppose if the moral driver is part of the id then the reason why conscience cuts in unbidden is partially explained the question is what provides the stimulous to activate the moral driver i think i need some more time with this one that s about it for now david on religion oh where is the sea the fishes cried as they swam its clearness through
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is after tons of mail could we move this discussion to alt religion there are many here among us who feel that life is but a joke bob dylan if you were happy every day of your life you wouldn t be a human being you d be a game show host taken from the movie heathers lecture lek chur process by which the notes of the professor become the notes of the student without passing through the minds of either
talk.religion.misc	bhagavad gita text bhogaisvarya prasaktanam tayapahrta cetasam vyavasayatmika buddhih samadhau na vidhiyate bhoga to material enjoyment aisvarya and opulence prasaktanam for those who are attached taya by such things apahrta cetasam bewildered in mind vyavasaya atmika fixed in determination buddhih devotional service to the lord samadhau in the controlled mind na never vidhiyate does take place translation in the minds of those who are too attached to sense enjoyment and material opulence and who are bewildered by such things the resolute determination for devotional service to the supreme lord does not take place purport samadhi means fixed mind the vedic dictionary the nirukti says samyag adhiyate sminn atma tattva yathatmyam when the mind is fixed for understanding the self it is said to be in samadhi samadhi is never possible for persons interested in material sense enjoyment nor for those who are bewildered by such temporary things they are more or less condemned by the process of material energy bhagavad gita as it is books of a c bhaktivedanta swami don t forget to chant hare krishna hare krishna krishna krishna hare hare hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare kalki s infoline bbs aiken south carolina usa system kalki lakes trenton sc us
talk.religion.misc	re question for those with popular morality in article freenet carleton ca ad freenet carleton ca james owens writes in a previous article david terminus ericsson se david bold says i don t mean to be rude but i think that you ve got hold of the wrong end of a different stick david i had a look at your posting again and i see what you mean i was so intent on explaining how jung thought we could be more moral than god that i overlooked your main line of thought you seem to be saying that god being unknowable his morality is unknowable yep that s pretty much it i m not a jew but i understand that this is the jewish way of thinking however the jews believe that the covenant between yhwh and the patriarchs abraham and moses in this case establishes a moral code to follow for mankind even the jews could not decide where the boundaries fall though as i understand it the sadducees believed that the torah was all that was required whereas the pharisees the ancestors of modern judaism believed that the torah was available for interpretation to lead to an understanding of the required morality in all its nuances talmud the essence of all of this is that biblical morality is an interface between man and yhwh for a jew or christian and does not necessarily indicate anything about yhwh outside of that relationship although one can speculate the first thing that comes to mind is that man is supposed to be created in his image so there is an argument that we are committed to whatever moral code he follows as part of trying to live up to that image if we are supposed to live by christ s example you would be hard pressed to argue that god is a do what i say not what i do kind of guy the trouble with all of this is that we don t really know what the created in his image means i ve heard a number of different opinions on this and have still not come to any conclusion this rather upsets the apple cart if one wants to base a life script on this shaky foundation to mix metaphors unashamedly as to living by christ s example we know very little about jesus as a person we only have his recorded utterances in a set of narratives by his followers and some very small references from comtemporary historians revelation aside one can only know christ second hand or worse this is not an attempt to debunk christianity although it may seem that way initially the point i m trying to make is that we only really have the bible to interpret and that interpretation is by humanity i guess this is where faith or relevation comes in with all its inherent subjectiveness metaphysically if there are multiple moral codes then there is no absolute moral code and i think this is theologically questionable no there may be an absolute moral code there are undoubtably multiple moral codes the multiple moral codes may be founded in the absolute moral code as an example a parent may tell a child never to swear and the child may assume that the parent never swears simply because the parent has told the child that it is wrong now the parent may swear like a trooper in the pub or bar where there are no children the wrongness here is if the child disobeys the parent the parent may feel that it is inappropriate to swear in front of children but may be quite happy to swear in front of animals the analogy does not quite hold water because the child knows that he is of the same type as the parent and may be a parent later in life but you get the gist of it incidentally the young child considers the directive as absolute until he gets older see piaget and learns a morality of his own david on religion oh where is the sea the fishes cried as they swam its clearness through
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article qjahh mrs horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article pww spac at rice edu pww spacsun rice edu peter walker writes in article qie fkt horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer wrote objective morality is morality built from objective values but where do those objective values come from how can we measure them what mediated thair interaction with the real world a moralon or a scalar valuino field science the real world has its basis in values not the other way round as you would wish it if there is no such thing as objective value then science can not objectively be said to be more useful than a kick in the head simple theories with accurate predictions could not objectively be said to be more useful than a set of tarot cards you like those conclusions i don t i think that you are changing the meaning of values here perhaps it is time to backtrack and take a look at the word value n a fair equivalent or return for something such as goods or service monetary or material worth worth as measured in usefulness or importance merit a principle standard or quality considered inherently worthwhile or desirable precise meaning as of a word an assigned or calculated numerical quantity mus the relative duratation of a tone or rest the relative darkness or lightness of a color the distinctive quality of a speech or speech sound in context of a moral system definition four seems to fit best in terms of scientific usage definitions six or eight might apply note that these definitions do not mean the same thing in my mind to say that science has its basis in values is a bit of a reach science has its basis in observable fact even the usages of the word value above do not denote observable fact but rather a standard of measurement i would conclude that science does not have its basis in values and so your statement above fails in fact if one concludes that a scientific set of measurements values are based on systems derived from observation then it must follow that in a scientific context there is no such thing as there is no such thing as objective values back to the present this has nothing to do with a moral system anyhow just because the word values is used in both contexts does not mean that there is a relationship between the two contexts if one is to argue for objective values in a moral sense then one must first start by demonstrating that morality itself is objective considering the meaning of the word objective i doubt that this will ever happen so back to the original question and objective morality is if you can provide an objective foundation for morality then that will be a good beginning frank o dwyer i m not hatching that odwyer sse ie from hens by evelyn conlon eric
talk.religion.misc	an invisible god god can be seen and i will take away my hand and thou shalt see my backparts ex and the lord spake to moses face to face as a man speaketh to his friend ex for i have seen god face to face and my life is preserved gen god cannot be seen no man hath seen god at any time john and he said thou canst not see my face for there shall no man see me and live ex whom no man hath seen nor can see tim pick what you want
talk.religion.misc	re kind loving merciful and forgiving god in article blue cis pitt edu joslin pogo isp pitt edu david joslin writes m mwunix mitre org james meritt writes a out of context must have missed when you said this about these other promises of god that we keep getting subjected to could you please explain why i am wrong and they are ok or an acknowledgement of public hypocrisy both or neither so according to you jim the only way to criticize one person for taking a quote out of context without being a hypocrite is to post a response to every person on t r m who takes a quote out of context did i either ask or assert that or is this your misaimed telepathy at work again btw to david josli i m still waiting for either your public acknowledgement of your telepathy and precognition are you a witch or an appology and retraction can you wait without whining to pass the time maybe you should go back and read the portions of my article that you so conveniently deleted in your reply you ll find most of your answers there nope in particular once he realized that he had example of telepathy responding jim s threa what threat produce it jim again still mystified more telepathy or maybe just empathic telepathy capable of determining emotional states jim trying to more telepathy how do you know trying jim preparing to precognition substantiate all this taken from your message id blue cis pitt edu
talk.religion.misc	catholic right pat robertson the roman catholic conservatives are coming out in the open to line up with pat robertson and his ultra right wing christian coalition former secretary of education william bennet a roman catholic stood beside the christian coalition s spokesman ralph reed at a march conference in washington the purpose of the conference was to publish results of a christian coalition poll which was designed to prove that the republican party would lose major support if it backed away from the family values positons of the convention conservative catholics have swung behind robertson s organization with political expertise legal assistance and high tech communications support the catholic campaign for american designed as a catholic version of the moral majority was founded by marlene elwell and tom wykes ms elwell has been with robertson since the days of his freedom council in and worked for him in his presidential bid in ms elwell was hired by domino s pizza magnate tom monaghan in to manage legatus a nonpolitical catholic businessmen s group membership is limited to catholics who head corporations with a least million in annual revenues relying on a network of wealthy contacts at legatus elwell and wykes had little trouble forming and funding the catholic campaign the campaign s list of national committee members includes u s rep robert k dornan phyllis schlafly of the eagle forum the lovely pat buchanan and rev richard j neuhaus also on the national committee is keith fournier a catholic who heads pat robertson s american center for law and justice another catholic thomas patrick monaghan senior counsel of robertson s aclj is also an active supporter of the catholic campaign the board of directors includes frank shakespeare broadcasting exec and former u s ambassador to the pope wall street executive frank lynch former reagan official richard v allen bishop rene gracida of corpus christi and mary ellen bork wife of unsuccessful supreme court nominee robert bork in the winter issue of campaign update the organization s quarterly newsletter rocco l martino a philadelphia business executive wrote separation of church and state is a false premise that must finally be cast aside and replaced by the true meaning of our constitution oh yes the organization s national ecclesisatical advisor is catholic politician cardinal john j o connor of new york jack carroll
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article qjclt nh horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes as i recall i first entered the fray on this matter in response to an assertion by simon clippingdale that morality was relative oops quite right i got so busy that i saved frank s last post back then intending to respond when i could and i sort of forgot i ll try to do it soon if anyone s still interested and probably even if they re not is he therefore trying to sell something i don t think so well yes maybe i am i m trying to have people buy and take on my opinions thus causing said opinions to spread in time honoured memetic virus mode until the world is a veritable paradise so how about it folks as they say over here you know it makes sense frank o dwyer i m not hatching that odwyer sse ie from hens by evelyn conlon cheers simon simon clippingdale simon dcs warwick ac uk department of computer science tel university of warwick fax coventry cv al u k
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article qjbn na horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article kmr po cwru edu kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes you have only pushed back the undefined meaning you must now define what objective values are really you don t know what objective value is if i offered the people of the u s collectively for all of the land in america would that sound like a good deal well that would depend on how much we wanted the us and how much we wanted the wouldn t it ekr eric rescorla ekr eitech com would you buy used code from this man
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article c hqxj jdg ux cso uiuc edu lis bw ux cso uiuc edu lis student writes hmmmm define objective morality well depends upon who you talk to some say it means you can t have your hair over your ears and others say it means stryper is acceptable i would say that general principles of objective morality would be listed in one or two places ten commandments sayings of jesus the first depends on whether you trust the bible the second depends on both whether you think jesus is god and whether you think we have accurate copies of the nt gong take a moment and look at what you just wrote first you defined an objective morality and then you qualified this objective morality with subjective justifications do you see the error in this sorry you have just disqualified yourself but please play again mac eric
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article qjd o nlv horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes in article qie fkt horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer wrote objective morality is morality built from objective values you now pushed down the defintion of objectivity into realm of objective values so you need to explain that as well as well as the objective sub parts the objective atoms quarks firstly science has its basis in values not the other way round you keep saying that i do not think it means what you think it means perhaps you should explain what you think science has it s basis in values means the reason why people do science is that they value it s results that does not mean that science has it s basis in values any more than des stops working if i stop valuing my privacy so you better explain what objective atoms are and how we get them from subjective values before we go any further see above ekr eric rescorla ekr eitech com would you buy used code from this man
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article c hr jxw ux cso uiuc edu lis bw ux cso uiuc edu lis student writes my definition of objective would be absolute or fixed rather than subjective or varying and changing lets see what the dictionary has to say objective adj as having to do with a material object as distinguished from a mental concept having actual existance a uninfluenced by emotion or personal prejudice b based on observable phenomenon eric
talk.religion.misc	re kind loving merciful and forgiving god m mwunix mitre org james meritt writes joslin pogo isp pitt edu david joslin writes m mwunix mitre org james meritt writes a out of context must have missed when you said this about these other promises of god that we keep getting subjected to could you please explain why i am wrong and they are ok or an acknowledgement of public hypocrisy both or neither so according to you jim the only way to criticize one person for taking a quote out of context without being a hypocrite is to post a response to every person on t r m who takes a quote out of context did i either ask or assert that or is this your misaimed telepathy at work again stephen said you took a quote out of context you noted that stephen had not replied to some other t r m article call it a that took a quote out of context but the lack of evidence for x does not constitute evidence for the lack of x a common creationist error so the fact that stephen did not reply to a does not justify the conclusion that stephen condoned taking quotes out of context in a you asked stephen to explain why you were wrong and they were ok or to acknowledge that he was being a hypocrite both of the choices you give stephen assume that he condoned taking quotes out of context in a i assumed you were being logical and that the sentence that begins could you please explain was not a nonsequitur but was intended to follow from the sentence that preceded it therefore i concluded that you believed that implied that stephen condoned taking quotes out of context in a but we ve already seen that does not imply this therefore you were incorrect to believe that implied that stephen thought it was okay to take quotes out of context in a and were making an error of a kind that is frequently made by creationists is that better jim it s called an argument if you disagree with it explain why the argument is not sound i admit that my assumption in may have been a bit hasty if you agree with it just say yup dj yup jim s e mailed response when i pointed out in a posted article that one of his arguments was a straw man argument reminiscent of a frequent creationist ploy
talk.religion.misc	re is it good that jesus died in article apr organpipe uug arizona edu brian lpl arizona edu brian ceccarelli wrote the truth is is that it is not some sort of magic spell the truth is is that you do not understand it and enjoy not understanding it i m curious about this statement is it a known understanding amongst christian believers that people who don t understand the christian doctrines are enjoying this state i come from a background with a heavy christian teaching lutheran church and consider myself knowledgeable with the basic understandings of christianity at the same time i m not proud of things i don t understand or know of at this point of time ignorance is not bliss cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re clarification of personal position in article c muiw aqc mailer cc fsu edu dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu darius lecointe wrote i will repeat my position here worshipping on sunday has never been a sin as a child i attended services on saturday and sunday at the sda church and at the pentecostal church across the street i might even go to a baptist church next week i worship god every day and every christian should even if we can prove that christians should meet on sunday and we can t we can never prove that violation of the sabbath is not a sin any longer nor can we prove that violation of sunday is a sin we cannot use the sabbath commandment for that purpose my online bible is on a cd but i don t own a cd rom system for the time being so i can t search for the famous cite where jesus explicitly states that he didn t want to break existing jewish laws in other words technically speaking christians should use saturday and not sunday as their holy day if they want to conform to the teachings of jesus cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re scientology i need some brief information on scientology or applientology as frank zappa would call it anyone have the time to send me some info on ol l ron and the b asics of what scientology is all about would be appreciated p s i am not inte rested in any propaganda i ve taken the liberty of passing your name and address to your local org scientology office they ll be contacting you in a few days i also threw in a small contribution so they d know you re serious
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article ursa bear com halat pooh bears jim halat writes atoms are not objective they aren t even real what scientists call an atom is nothing more than a mathematical model that describes certain physical observable properties of our surroundings all of which is subjective jim halat this deserves framing it really does atoms aren t even real tell me then those atoms we have seen with electron microscopes are atoms now so what are they figments of our imaginations the evidence that atoms are real is overwhelming but i won t bother with most evidence at the moment mccullou whipple cs wisc edu never program and drink beer at the same m time it doesn t work
talk.religion.misc	rosicrucian order s kent you say that there are about competing rosicrucian orders existing today most of them are spin offs from oto and other competing organizations from the th century france germany maybe i should write an article please don t about all this i spent some time investigating these organizations and their conceptual world view systems name just three really competing rosicrucian orders i have probably spent more time than you doing the same none of them are spin offs from o t o the opposite may be the case study harder tony
talk.religion.misc	re lds rick s reply robert weiss psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu writes rick anderson replied to my letter with ra in article c elp l c acsu buffalo edu ra psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu robert weiss says ra just briefly on something that you mentioned in passing you refer to differing interpretations of create and say that many christians may not agree so what that is really irrelevant we do not base our faith on how many people think one way or another do we the bottom line is truth regardless of popularity of opinions it may be irrelevant to you and your personal beliefs or should i say bias but it is relevant to me and many others you re right the bottom line is truth independant from you or anyone else since you proclaim truths as a self proclaimed appointee may i ask you by what authority you do this because it says so in the bible does the bible say so or is it you or someone else who interprets whether a scripture or doctrine conforms to your particular liking or disapproval excuse moi but your line of truths haven t moved me one bit to persuade me that my beliefs are erroneous of all the preachers of truth on this net you have struck me as a self righteous member of the wrecking crew with no positive message to me or other latter day saints whatsoever btw this entire discussion reminds me a lot of the things said by jesus to the pharisees ye hypocrite s ye preach about me with your lips but your hearts are far removed from me also i find it rather strange that in trying to persuade that created and eternally existent are equivalent you say granted the mormon belief you can t grant your conclusion and then expect the point to have been addressed in order to reply to the issue you have to address and answer the point that was raised and not just jump to the conclusion that you grant sophistry look who s talking jumping to conclusions you wouldn t do that yourself right all you address is your own convictions regardless whether we come up with any biblical scriptures which supports our points of view because you reject such interpretations without any consideration whatsoever the bible states that lucifer was created the bible states that jesus is the creator of all the contradiction that we have is that the lds belief is that jesus and lucifer were the same a beautiful example of disinformation and a deliberate misrepresentation of lds doctrine the former kgb would have loved to employ you jesus and lucifer are not the same silly and you know it the mormon belief is that all are children of god literally there is nothing symbolic about it this however contradicts what the bible says the bible teaches that not everyone is a child of god correction it may contradict would you think the bible says the bible indeed does teach that not all are children of god in the sense that they belong to or follow god in his footsteps satan and his followers have rebelled against god and are not children followers redeemed of god but it doesn t mean that they were not once created by god but chose to separate themselves from those who chose to follow god and his plan of salvation the field is the world the good seed are the children of the kingdom but the tares are the children of the wicked one matthew so this illustrates nicely what i just said the children of the kingdom are those who have remained valiant in their testimony of jesus and have shown works of repentance etc and the children of the wicked one are those who rebelled against god and the lamb the issue of satan s spirit offspring and those who followed him has not been addressed in this and other verses you copied from your bible you purposefully obscured the subject by swamping your right with non related scriptures lots of nice scriptures deleted not robert w copyrighted though ra we are told that and this is life eternal that they might know ra thee the only true god and jesus christ whom thou hast sent ra john life eternal is to know the only true god yet the ra doctrines of the lds that i have mentioned portray a vastly ra different jesus a jesus that cannot be reconciled with the jesus of ra the bible they are so far removed from each other that to proclaim correction my jesus is indeed different than your jesus and can be reconciled with the jesus in the bible not your interpretation of him i concur but i honestly couldn t care less ra one as being true denies the other from being true according to the ra bible eternal life is dependent on knowing the only true god and ra not the construct of imagination in this single posting of yours i ve seen more constructs of imagination than in all of the pro lds mails combined i have read so far in this news group first get your lds facts straight before you dare preaching to us about the only true god whom you interpret according to your own likes and dislikes but whose image i cannot reconcile with what i know about him myself i guess your grandiose self image does not allow for other faiths believing in the divinity of jesus christ but in a different way or fashion than your own not that it really matters the mission and progress of the lds church will go on boldly and nobly and no mob or opponent can stop the work from progressing until it has visited every continent swept every clime and sounded in every ear this is really a red herring it doesn t address any issue raised but rather it seeks to obfuscate the fact that some groups try to read something into the bible doesn t change what the bible teaches sigh what the bible teaches or what the bible teaches according to robert weiss and co i respect the former i reject the latter without the remotest feeling that i have rejected jesus on the contrary and by the way i do respect your interpretations of the bible i even grant you being a christian following your own image of him as much as i am a christian following my own image of him in my heart most of the other replies have instead hop scotched to the issue of bruce mcconkie and whether his views were official doctrine i don t think that it matters if mcconkie s views were canon that is not the issue were mcconkie s writings indicative of mormon belief on this subject is the real issue the indication from rick is that they may certainly be the issue is of course that you love to use anything to either mis represent or ridicule the lds church the issue of official doctrine is obviously very important mcconkie s views have been controversial e g the seven deadly heresies has made me a heretic at best or erroneous at worst blacks not to receive the priesthood in this dispensation i respect him as someone who has made his valuable contribution to the church but i personally do not rely on his personal interpretations his book mormon doctrine is oftentimes referred to as mcconkie s bible in mormon circles on mormon doctrine i rather look to official doctrinal sources and to hugh nibley s books the last comment is an lds insider reference summarizing mcconkie was a wise man who contributed undoubtedly far more to the kingdom of god than i have but whose views are by no means dogma or accepted doctrine some of it clearly belongs to personal interpretation and speculation but having said this i find mcconkie even in his most biased and speculative moments far more thought provoking than the trash coming from your proverbial pen i m somewhat appalled that i have allowed myself to sink as low as you in this posting robert weiss psyrobtw ubvms cc buffalo edu casper c knies isscck byuvm bitnet brigham young university isscck vm byu edu ucs computer facilities
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article apr asl dl nec com duffy aslss asl dl nec com joseph duffy writes how does one falsify any origin theory for example are a forever existing universe or abiogenesis strictly falsifiable the same way that any theory is proven false you examine the predicitions that the theory makes and try to observe them if you don t or if you observe things that the theory predicts wouldn t happen then you have some evidence against the theory if the theory can t be modified to incorporate the new observations then you say that it is false for example people used to believe that the earth had been created years ago but as evidence showed that predictions from this theory were not true it was abandoned russ paul jones russpj microsoft com
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is oxymoronic forgach noao edu suzanne forgach writes from article qcq f r fido asd sgi com by livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey if there is a western ethic against infanticide why are so many children dying all over the world the majority of the world isn t western superficially a good answer but it isn t that simple an awful lot of the starvation and poverty in the world is directly caused by the economic policies of the western countries as well as by the diet of the typical westerner for instance some third world countries with terrible malnutrition problems export all the soya they can produce so that it can be fed to cattle in the us to make tender juicy steaks and burgers they have to do this to get money to pay the interest on the crippling bank loans we encouraged them to take out fund raising for ethiopia is a truly bizarre idea instead we ought to stop bleeding them for every penny they ve got perhaps it s more accurate to say that there s a western ethic against western infanticide all the evidence suggests that so long as the children are dying in the third world we couldn t give a shit and that goes for the supposed pro life movement too they could save far more lives by fighting against third world debt than they will by fighting against abortion hell if they re only interested in fetuses they could save more of those by fighting for human rights in china and besides suzanne s answer implies that non western countries lack this ethic against infanticide apart from china with its policy of mandatory forced abortion in tibet i don t believe this to be the case mathew
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article qg bu kl fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes and this objective morality is and here children we have a person playing the objective morality doesn t exist show me one game you can play this with just about anything and this objective medicine is and this objective physics is and this objective reality is precisely there s no objective medicine some people get marvellous results from alternative therapy others only respond to traditional medicine there s no objective physics einstein and bohr have told us that there s no objective reality lsd should be sufficient to prove that one wonders just what people who ask such questions understand by the term objective if anything i consider it to be a useful fiction an abstract ideal we can strive towards like an ideal gas or a light inextensible string it doesn t actually exist but we can talk about things as if they were like it and not be too far wrong mathew
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes b i am neither a christian nor a theist but i believe in objective morality in preference to a relativist soup of gobbledegook well there are two approaches we can take here one is to ask you what this objective morality is assuming it s not a secret the other is to ask you what you think is wrong with relativism so that we can correct your misconceptions mathew
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes i am not a christian however i suspect that all flavours of christianity hold that a objective morality exists and b their particular interpretation of scripture revelation tv is a goodly glimpse of it that they may all disagree about b says nothing about the truth or falsehood of a actually they generally claim that b their particular interpretation of scripture revelation is this objective morality that there are two conflicting versions of this objective morality does tell us something about a it tells us at least one fake objective morality exists the next logical step is to deduce that any given religion s objective morality could be the fake one so caveat emptor mathew atheism anti virus software for the mind
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article apr scic intel com sbradley scic intel com seth j bradley writes ifone simply says god did it then that is not falsifiable unless god admits that he didn t do it i d cheat on hillary too john laws local gop reprehensitive extolling traditional family values
talk.religion.misc	re lds rick s reply robert weiss psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu writes rick anderson replied to my letter with ra in article c elp l c acsu buffalo edu ra psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu robert weiss says ra just briefly on something that you mentioned in passing you refer to differing interpretations of create and say that many christians may not agree so what that is really irrelevant we do not base our faith on how many people think one way or another do we the bottom line is truth regardless of popularity of opinions it may be irrelevant to you and your personal beliefs or should i say bias but it is relevant to me and many others you re right the bottom line is truth independant from you or anyone else since you proclaim truths as a self proclaimed appointee may i ask you by what authority you do this because it says so in the bible does the bible say so or is it you or someone else who interprets whether a scripture or doctrine conforms to your particular liking or disapproval excuse moi but your line of truths haven t moved me one bit to persuade me that my beliefs are erroneous of all the preachers of truth on this net you have struck me as a self righteous member of the wrecking crew with no positive message to me or any other latter day saint btw this entire discussion reminds me a lot of the things said by jesus to the pharisees ye hypocrite s ye preach about me with your lips but your hearts are far removed from me also i find it rather strange that in trying to persuade that created and eternally existent are equivalent you say granted the mormon belief you can t grant your conclusion and then expect the point to have been addressed in order to reply to the issue you have to address and answer the point that was raised and not just jump to the conclusion that you grant sophistry look who s talking jumping to conclusions you wouldn t do that yourself right all you address is your own convictions regardless whether we come up with any biblical scriptures which supports our points of view because you reject such interpretations without any consideration whatsoever the bible states that lucifer was created the bible states that jesus is the creator of all the contradiction that we have is that the lds belief is that jesus and lucifer were the same a beautiful example of disinformation and a deliberate misrepresentation of lds doctrine the former kgb would have loved to employ you jesus and lucifer are not the same silly and you know it the mormon belief is that all are children of god literally there is nothing symbolic about it this however contradicts what the bible says the bible teaches that not everyone is a child of god correction it may contradict would you think the bible says the bible indeed does teach that not all are children of god in the sense that they belong to or follow god in his footsteps satan and his followers have rebelled against god and are not children followers redeemed of god but it doesn t mean that they were not once created by god but chose to separate themselves from those who chose to follow god and his plan of salvation the field is the world the good seed are the children of the kingdom but the tares are the children of the wicked one matthew so this illustrates nicely what i just said the children of the kingdom are those who have remained valiant in their testimony of jesus and have shown works of repentance etc and the children of the wicked one are those who rebelled against god and the lamb the issue of satan s spirit origin and of those who followed him has not been addressed in this and other verses you copied from your bible you purposefully obscured the subject by swamping your right with non related scriptures lots of nice scriptures deleted not robert w copyrighted though ra we are told that and this is life eternal that they might know ra thee the only true god and jesus christ whom thou hast sent ra john life eternal is to know the only true god yet the ra doctrines of the lds that i have mentioned portray a vastly ra different jesus a jesus that cannot be reconciled with the jesus of ra the bible they are so far removed from each other that to proclaim correction my jesus is indeed different than your jesus and can be reconciled with the jesus in the bible not your interpretation of him i concur but i honestly couldn t care less ra one as being true denies the other from being true according to the ra bible eternal life is dependent on knowing the only true god and ra not the construct of imagination in this single posting of yours i ve seen more constructs of imagination than in all of the pro lds mails combined i have read so far in this news group first get your lds facts straight before you dare preaching to us about the only true god whom you interpret according to your own likes and dislikes but whose image i cannot reconcile with what i know about him myself i guess your grandiose self image does not allow for other faiths believing in the divinity of jesus christ but in a different way or fashion than your own not that it really matters the mission and progress of the lds church will go on boldly and nobly and no mob or opponent can stop the work from progressing until it has visited every continent swept every clime and sounded in every ear this is really a red herring it doesn t address any issue raised but rather it seeks to obfuscate the fact that some groups try to read something into the bible doesn t change what the bible teaches sigh what the bible teaches or what the bible teaches according to robert weiss and co i respect the former i reject the latter without the remotest feeling that i have rejected jesus on the contrary and by the way i do respect your interpretations of the bible i even grant you being a christian following your own image of him as much as i am a christian following my own image of him in my heart most of the other replies have instead hop scotched to the issue of bruce mcconkie and whether his views were official doctrine i don t think that it matters if mcconkie s views were canon that is not the issue were mcconkie s writings indicative of mormon belief on this subject is the real issue the indication from rick is that they may certainly be the issue is of course that you love to use anything to either mis represent or ridicule the lds church the issue of official doctrine is obviously very important mcconkie s views have been controversial e g the seven deadly heresies has made me a heretic at best or erroneous at worst blacks not to receive the priesthood in this dispensation i respect him as someone who has made his valuable contribution to the church but i personally do not rely on his personal interpretations his book mormon doctrine is oftentimes referred to as mcconkie s bible in mormon circles on mormon doctrine i rather look to official doctrinal sources and to hugh nibley s books the last comment is an lds insider reference summarizing mcconkie was a wise man who contributed undoubtedly far more to the kingdom of god than i have but whose views are by no means dogma or accepted doctrine some of it clearly belongs to personal interpretation and speculation but having said this i find mcconkie even in his most biased and speculative moments far more thought provoking than the trash coming from your proverbial pen i m somewhat appalled that i have allowed myself to sink as low as you in this posting robert weiss psyrobtw ubvms cc buffalo edu casper c knies isscck byuvm bitnet brigham young university isscck vm byu edu ucs computer facilities
talk.religion.misc	re a kind and loving god not in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes in article apr ra royalroads ca mlee post royalroads ca malcolm lee wrote this brings up another question i still have to ponder why is there so much anti semitism why do people hate jews i don t hate jews i consider them to be like anyone else sinners we all are i don t know i don t care about ethnical rights and wrongs myself but it s evident that christians consider jews no longer to be the sole selected group of god s people while jews consider this to be the case christian anti semitism comes from the obvious fact that the jews should know the hebrew scriptures better than anyone else yet they did not convert to christianity en mass thus rejecting christian love no wonder this caused anti semitism one might even wonder that if christianity didn t do this separation would anti semitism have even started i don t see why not where are the rest of the tribal people what happened to the tribes of the americas culture is seen as different and undesirable in the west particular in the us with its failed melting pot concept most tribes have been hunted to extinction the hebrew tribe is one of the few survivers from the neolithic of course it becomes difficult at times to separate christianity from the western experience so perhaps you are right perhaps it would have been a better world if the cultural experiment in christianity never happened
talk.religion.misc	re flaming nazis in article apr news cs brandeis edu deane binah cc brandeis edu writes okay i ll bite i should probably leave this alone but what the heck in article apr sun urz uni heidelberg de gsmith lauren iwr uni heidelberg de gene w smith writes in article tt r b w w brewich hou tx us popec brewich hou tx us pope charles writes rhoemer was the name of the guy responsible for much of the uniforms and props used by the early nazis in their rallies and such the name is roehm not rhoemer and hitler does claim that he came up with the swastika business but didn t he credit the actual flag design to a party member some dentist or other i believe he gives such credit in mein kampf he was killed in an early nazi purge he and many of his associates were flaming homosexuals well know also for their flamboyant orgies i have been trying to find if there is any actual evidence for this common assertion recently postings to such groups as soc history and soc culture german has not uncovered any net experts who could provide any well i m no expert but all of the histories of nazi germany assert this they make reference to several scandals that occurred long before the night of the long knives the impression that i got was that homosexuality in portions of the sa was common knowledge also a book by a homosexual author whose name escapes me at the moment called homosexuals in history asserts that roehm and heines were homosexuals as well as others in roehm s sa circle rest deleted can anybody out in a p h help out find out about the night of the brown shirts kcochran nyx cs du edu b c d e f g k m r s t tsakc my thoughts my posts my ideas my responsibility my beer my pizza ok
talk.religion.misc	christians above the law was clarification of personal position in article c muiw aqc mailer cc fsu edu dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu darius lecointe writes other good stuff deleted you can worship every day of the week the issue is not whether christians are at fault for going to church on sunday or for not going to church on saturday attending a church service does not mean you have recognized the holiness of that day my apologies to paul hudson the question is on what authority do we proclaim that the requirements of the fourth commandment are no longer relevant to modern christians please note that the commandment does not command you to go to church only to keep it holy unto the lord by refraining from doing on it what only serves to give you pleasure and satisfaction when are we going to hear a christian answer to this question in paraphrase on what or whose authority do christians proclaim that they are above the law and above the prophets major and minor and not accountable to the ten commandments of which jesus clearly spoke his opinion in matthew what is the source of this pseudo doctrine who is the pseudo teacher who is the great deceiver
talk.religion.misc	re the real probability of abiogenesis was re albert sabin in qc tiinnhie ctron news ctron com king ctron com john e king writes adpeters sunflower bio indiana edu andy peters writes we re not just talking about proteins in fact we shouldn t be talking about proteins at all since if i have to say this again i m goint to be really upset nobody claims that proteins appeared de novo the proteins did not form randomly before i repond to andy please clarify you state that proteins did not form randomly that seems to be my point well i am not andy but if you had familiarized yourself with some of the current theories hypotheses about abiogenesis before posting you would be aware of the fact that none of them claims that proteins were assembled randomly from amino acids it is current thinking that rna based replicators came before proteinaceous enzymes and that proteins were assembled by some kind of primitive translation machinery now respond to cornelius cornelius krasel department of physiological chemistry u tuebingen email krasel studserv zdv uni tuebingen de people are dna s way of making more dna r dawkins anonymous
talk.religion.misc	re an invisible god in article apr maths tcd ie pmoloney maths tcd ie paul moloney writes jmeritt mental mitre org jim meritt system admin writes god can be seen and i will take away my hand and thou shalt see my backparts wot god s a mooner such lunacy gee maybe there s something in this christianity thing after all maybe god is john belushi from animal house the supernatural one wants to have a personal relationship with you jhvh come quick
talk.religion.misc	ignorance is bliss was is it good that jesus died in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes ignorance is not bliss ignorance is strength help spread the truth of ignorance
talk.religion.misc	christians above the law was clarification of personal position in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes my online bible is on a cd but i don t own a cd rom system for the time being so i can t search for the famous cite where jesus explicitly states that he didn t want to break existing jewish laws in other words technically speaking christians should use saturday and not sunday as their holy day if they want to conform to the teachings of jesus who said christians want to conform to the teachings of jesus you are the light of the world a city can t be hidden lying on a mountaintop nor do people light a candle and cover it with a big basket they put it up on a tall candlestick where it can shine for everyone in the house that s how your light must shine in front of the world so that people see your good deeds and give credit to your father in the skies don t think i came to dissolve the law torah aka first five books or the prophets major plus minor i didn t come to dissolve them i came to fulfill them i assure you till the sky and the earth go away not one letter or punctuation mark of the law will ever go away until everthing has come to pass so anyone who dissolves even one of the smallest commandments and teaches others the same way will be known as the lowest in the kingdom of the skies whereas anyone who keeps the commands and teaches them too will be known as someone great in the kingdom of the skies matt gaus isbn
talk.religion.misc	the bad press islam has recieved i recently read an article in a local paper written by an islamic person who was upset with the way islam has been portrayed by western media when a terrorist action takes place in the middle east it is always played up as an islamic terrorist however when the a serbian terrorist attacks the croations its not a christian terrorist its just a terrorist i have often tried to explain this to some close friends who believe the press that islam is somehow tied to violence often times you hear things like they just don t value human life like we do and so on i was wondering if anyone out there had any suggestions for how we can change this image or how i can help my friends to see that this is just hype i would appreciate any serious suggestions or comments via e mail and i m not interested in hearing about how right the press is scott vann buddha iastate edu
talk.religion.misc	re spreading christianity re christian extremist kills doctor nyikos math scarolina edu peter nyikos writes i addressed most of the key issues in this very long lines post by dean kaflowitz in two posts yesterday the first was made into the title post of a new thread is dean kaflowitz terminally irony impaired and the second more serious one appeared along the thread a chaney post and a challenge reissued and revised if you re so insecure about people reading your posts that you feel the need to write new posts announcing what you wrote in old posts why bother accept it phoney you re a laughingstock
talk.religion.misc	re rosicrucian order s in article qppef i b usenet ins cwru edu ch cleveland freenet edu tony alicea writes name just three really competing rosicrucian orders i have probably spent more time than you doing the same none of them are spin offs from o t o the opposite may be the case can we assume from this statement that you are unequivocally saying that amorc is not a spin off of oto and that in fact oto may well be a spin off of amorc i would be quite interested in hearing what evidence you have to support this claim study harder study smarter not harder more more of everything more of everything for everybody real total war has become information war it is being fought now max delysid alamut netcom com alamutbbs
talk.religion.misc	re swastika was hitler pagan or christian the observation that the tree of life would rotate clockwise in the northern hemisphere and counterclockwise in the southern probably doesn t give enough consideration to the feebleness of the coriolis force compared to say the phototropism of vegetation a much more likely explanation is the classic one that the clockwise swastika is the sun wheel because the sun progresses across the sky that way although that s not the historical way it happened clocks were first made as little imitation images of the sun moving thru the heavens so it s more valid to talk of the clock going sunwise but do the engineers listen to me of course not anyway there is still much uncertainty about whether the anti swastika goes counter sunwise because that represents evil or because it is the sun s twin opposite the moonwheel the use of anti sun to represent evil may be because humans are so strongly visually oriented but i m not going to try to settle that one just now diccon frankborn dickeney access digex com
talk.religion.misc	re swastika was hitler pagan or christian re red wwhite and black the colors of the imperial german war flag go further back still there are xviii prussian drinking songs celebrating the red the white and the black the colors as fletcher pratt points out of blood and iron diccon frankborn
talk.religion.misc	re flaming nazis the trouble with trying to find out the truth is that roehm and his buddies were accused of being flaming faggots one of the pretexts for the night of long knives in which roehm and most of the sa wing of the nsdap were purged since the accusers thereafter controlled the records anything bearing on the subject true or not has to be considered tainted evidence the available data suggest that roehm and his crowd the sa sturmabteilung storm troopers left the world a better place when they departed but concrete particulars are still no more than more or less shrewd guesses diccon frankborn
talk.religion.misc	re oto the ancient order of oriental templars do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law honestly the word of sin is restriction would i kid you does one man s words encompass the majestic vision of thousands of individuals quoting a man is not the same as quoting the order taken out of context words can be interpreted much differently than had one applied them within the confines of their original expression i think this is the case regarding hymenaeus beta frater superior of the order to which i belong when he included that bit from merlinus x he did us all a service he showed us the extremes to which order members have been known to go in their fervor i have little knowledge regarding reuss background but surely he was an unusual man and he was an important force in the order for many years yet as people change so do orders change and while we look back so carefully at the dirty laundry of o t o remember that this is only the surface skim and that many perspectives are now encompassed which extend beyond any one individual i hope to show that there was and is much room for a difference of opinion within the order itself perhaps by testing the limits myself let us examine this issue a bit more closely in karl kellner a wealthy austrian industrialist and paper chemist as well as a high grade mason founded the ordo templi orientis kellner had traveled widely in the east where he met three adepts who instructed him specific magical practices kellner s efforts to develop the order were later assisted by franz hartmann heinrich klein and theodore reuss who had worked together prior to joining the o t o the order was first proclaimed in in reuss s masonic publication oriflamme on kellner s death reuss succeeded him as outer head o h o the jubilee edition of the oriflamme published in announced that the order taught secret of sexual magic theodore reuss was an interesting character born june in augsburg he entered masonry in he was a singer journalist and possibly a spy for the prussian political police infiltrating the socialist league founded by karl marx s daughter and her husband reuss was later associated with william wynn westcott a leader of the golden dawn who later introduced him to john yarker yarker chartered reuss to found the rites of memphis and mizraim in germany after several attempts to concretize various masonic rites reuss settled on the development of the o t o the order experienced reasonably steady growth under reuss leadership for example he chartered papus in france rudolph steiner in berlin and h spencer lewis in the usa in the historic meeting between reuss and crowley occurred crowley wrote that reuss came to him and accused him of revealing order secrets when crowley looked at it afresh the initiated interpretation of sexual magick unfolded itself to him for the first time reuss appointed crowley as supreme and holy king of all the english speaking world and it was this authorization that he invoked when publishing the material of the equinox reuss resigned as outer head of the order in after suffering a stroke and named crowley his successor all was well until when the book of the law was translated into german there was a break in the continuity of the order manyk members split with the new o h o over the book which crowley was actively promulgating through the order he had earlier revise dthe order rituals at reuss s request deeply infusing the doctrines of the new aeon revelation an introduction to the history of the o t o by ad veritatem ix within equinox iii edited by hymenaeus beta frater superior rex summus sanctissimus caliph of the united states of america published by samuel weiser there are many possible reasons that our frater superior included this material in equinox iii and this is the real point is it not why did he wish to publish such things about the history of his own organization does he represent a dogmatic threat to the principle of thelema or is he exercising his true will and putting forth very complex pictures with no easy answers a picture which leaves room for very many interpretations it is quite easy for me to see for example that all of o t o derived out of the dribble of faltering masonry purchased by clever hucksters with an ounce of courage and some writing ability to aid them and i can take that all the way down to our present caliph whose feeble support of the law of thelema is laughable at best would i be thrown out of the order for speaking in this way will i i think not why because my frater will see it as a perspective an interjection i am using as an example my illustration shows that we may express things in the context of a larger work and the true significance of this may be quite difficult to apprehend at first so it may be with oto and merlinus x please look o t o more carefully i do not support reuss s words myself as i am not qualified to assess them and i am critical of their pomposity if i who am a member of the order take such a stand and am allowed to continue doing so then what can this say about the health of the order does it mean that the order has gone soft and abandoned its moral principles or does it mean that it is strong in its ability to let the will of universal kinship arise on its own not shackled by some dogmatic requirement how shall we resolve these two possibilities i find a high calibre of individual associated with ordo templi orientis they are often quite intelligent and sometimes very well versed in arcane or usual information they are quite often artists and geniuses having met some longstanding members in the sf bay area many who are or were very heavily involved with the order i can vouch for the integrity of the organization as it stands i have sometimes questioned the policy of hymenaeus beta in these moments i followed my intuition and i ve found little to stop me from requesting a second initiation from a different o t o body i m happily participating in social groups feasts or initiations and have come to know the gnostic mass well enough for my tastes this doesn t make me an authority on order politics and explanations however i can only hypothesize and relay to you what i understand based on my limited contact with other members i urge you not to take the words of merlinus x too far there are many ways to interpret words and many people who have become involved with the order feel very strongly about the sanctity of personal freedom and the preservation of individual vision i welcome other comment on this issue and will be writing more in response to other posts in this thread invoke me under my stars love is the law love under will i am i frater i nigris dclxvi cccxxxiii
talk.religion.misc	re albert sabin in article apr rambo atlanta dg com wpr atlanta dg com bill rawlins writes in article c ftjt sunfish usd edu rfox charlie usd edu rich fox univ of south dakota writes in article apr rambo atlanta dg com wpr atlanta dg com bill rawlins writes earlier dialogue deleted perhaps you should read it and stop advancing the bible as evidence relating to questions of science it did jesus exist by g a wells there is a great fallacy in your statement the question of origins is based on more than science alone nope no fallacy yep science is best in determining how religions handle why and who the problem is that most scientists exclude the possibility of the supernatural in the question of origins is this is a fair premise not entirely its not a premise its a conclusion second that scientists for the most part exlude the possibility is not a problem its a necessity scientists are empircists not theologians i utterly reject the hypothesis that science is the highest form of truth so do scientists and long before you did clearly you have a deep and fundamental misunderstanding of science if you met a man who could walk on water raise people from the dead claimed to be the son of god and then referred to the inviolability of the scriptures this would affect your belief in the origin of man i can expand on this nope wouldn t affect my knowledge not belief of origins of anatomically modern humans if that man could show me something better i d change even if it was the biblical story in exact detail but then i would ask why in the world did your father endow us with intellect and reason and then proceed to fool us i mean the bible says nothing about the human like creatures that we know exist some of these so called human like creatures were apes some were humans some were fancifully reconstructed from fragments absolutely and utterly false except for some were amhs lucy australopithecus afarensis ca to mya is complete and about taking into consideration bilateral symmetry lucy walked upright and bipedally just like humans and the two share a remarkably similar dental pattern her cranial morphology is unlike humans or modern apes there are hundreds of other specimens of this and other species of which only some are partially reconstructed they exist bill you can touch them feel them hold them but forget hominids the earth the universe the cultural record all look and test out as ancient indeed they are not reconstructions has god has tricked us here too it won t go away bill i doubt any of us will meet a man like this but bill if your version of all this is absolutely correct i m still no worried about my salvation i ll probaby make it i don t steal murder covet etc and i like to help other people all i did was use the reason and intellect your god provided he or she benevolent and loving will understand my dilemma don t you think good deeds do not justify a person in god s sight an atonement jesus is needed to atone for sin so you and other fundamentalists say what about the billions who don t say so beware of people who say they have the truth bill and reconsider each time you think you do science and the bible are not in contradiction god can supercede the scientific laws as man understands them creation is a good example god has the power to create something out of nothing order out of chaos haven t been on t o long but i have a feeling bill that the veterans will agree with you here no contradiciton and god can do anything at will so what s the beef or more properly where s my point god is the creator look s like we agree that was not your point bill your point above was god has the power scientists generally agree with that that s a far cry from saying god did please attempt to understand your own posts if the title of the book you mentioned has anything to do with the substance of the book it must be a real laugher of course jesus existed and there are volumes of evidence to back it up i can give many if you are interested its not a laugher bill its a scholarly book that many happen to disagree with i am definitely and seriously interested in confirmation i know of the bible inferences therefrom e g prophecies apocrypha the koran and others what i am interested is independent evidence do you have any i know of josephus but this is almost certainly an insertion also i know of a few roman documents e g pliny but these deal only with early christians do you have any independent evidence i am most interested please email or post thanks and best regards i ll send you some info via e mail regards bill i have your info and i have replied several days ago hope you have it somehow your post above appeared at my server only today rich fox anthro usouthdakota
talk.religion.misc	re a kind and loving god in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes stephen wrote sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik quotes ml remember these laws were written for a different time and applied only to god s chosen people but jesus has changed all of that we are living in the age of grace sin is no longer immediately punishable by death there is repentance and there is salvation through our lord jesus christ and not just for a few chosen people salvation is available to everyone jew and gentile alike jews won t agree with you malcolm which jews ks most religious jews with the exception of the messianic ones and atheists agnostics malcolm ks i see you re wanting malcolm s response allow me one last inter jection then please distinguishing among the religious jews you ve excepted the messianic for obvious reasons specifically are you saying it s these religious jews who trace their lineage back to abraham by blood and orthodoxy rather than by faith who won t agree orthodox jews as to the a a if i understand your direction the issue remains unproven i suspect considering how atheists and agnostics so often look to reason atheist it is reasonable to conclude will not agree for agnostics a poll seems in order who knows myself i m not so sure the atheists can be counted out for the orthodox i wonder how many would follow moses or abraham or david in accepting god s word is the particular covenant to which one adheres more important than god promisimg i reckon for many it depends on the ongoing dialogue under these considerations you might understand why i think it s premature to assert who will and won t agree j stephen
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is oxymoronic in article m rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew mantis co uk mathew writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes not of course the greatest salesman in the world that was jesus wasn t it no j r bob dobbs definitely j r bob dobbs numero uno top dog not one can touch not one can knock bob out of the box bob kills me mon everyday but close el segundo el subliminal is the infamous paul birthname saul the evangeline who became famous as a result of his numerous trampoline act tours of the eastern mediterranean jesus on the other hand was duped a pawn of the con fell pray to the holywood paradox ain t nothing but a sign in the hills like many afro asians jesus found the earth all too pink and to think that after his death the con changed him into a tall blond holywood sun god and i do mean that in the kindest way possums now jesus does gigs with hendrix joplin morrison lennon marley tosh etc mostly ska beat jah know
talk.religion.misc	re albert sabin in article apr rambo atlanta dg com wpr atlanta dg com bill rawlins writes however one highly biased account as well as possibly internally inconsistent written over mellenia ago in a dead language by fanatic devotees of the creature in question which is not supported by other more objective sources and isnt even accepted by those who s messiah this creature was supposed to be doesn t convince me in the slightest especially when many of the current day devotees appear brainwashed into believing this pile of guano since you have referred to the messiah i assume you are referring to the new testament please detail your complaints or e mail if you don t want to post first century greek is well known and well understood have you considered josephus the jewish historian who also wrote of jesus in addition the four gospel accounts are very much in harmony bill i have taken the time to explain that biblical scholars consider the josephus reference to be an early christian insert by biblical scholar i mean an expert who in the course of his or her research is willing to let the chips fall where they may this excludes literalists who may otherwise be defined as biblical apologists they find what they want to find they are not trustworthy by scholarly standards and others why an insert read it i have a number of times the passage is glaringly out of context and josephus a superb writer had no such problem elsewhere in his work the passage has nothing to do with the subject matter in which it lies it suddenly appears and then just as quickly disappears until you can demonstrate how and why the scholarly community is wrong about the josephus insert your proof is meaningless and it should not be repeated here what s more even if josephus happened to be legitimate it would prove nothing scholars speak of the weight of evidence far more independent evidence would be required to validate your claim until forthcoming your belief is based on faith that s ok but you exceed your rights when you pass faith off as fact as for the gospels there are parallels but there are also glaring inconsistencies and contradictions shouldn t a perfect canon be perfect shouldn t there be absolutely no room for debate i suggest you read gospel fictions by randel helms and the unauthorized version by robin fox for herb huston no known kinship or familial relationship but we do indeed share an evolutionary ancestry the fact that there are inconsistencies gaps and contradictions does not deny your position on the other hand neither do the gospels prove your faith independent evidence is necessary and i know of none which we have already discussed and so far you have not provided any until then its faith moreover you have committed a fundamental error in logic you have attempted to prove your claim with that which you want to prove its no different than saying i am right because i say so your logic is full of circles it reminds me a bit of the presbyterian general assembly the assembly defined five fundamentals this is where fundamentalist came from of orthodox protestant christianity to wit jesus performed miracles jesus was born of a virgin jesus was bodily resurrected jesus crucifixion atoned for human sin and here is the clincher the bible is the inerrant word of god presbyterians construe inerrant broadly as spritually inerrant fundamentalists take the first four as literally true and then validate them with a literally inerrant bible which contains the first four and which is the only thing known to contain the first four smoke and mirrors and wands and hand waving if ever there was its faith bill you don t have any more or better truths than anyone else whatever works for you just don t foist it on others regards rich fox anthro usouthdakota
talk.religion.misc	re ignorance is bliss was is it good that jesus died in article f ap quack kfu com pharvey quack kfu com paul harvey wrote in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes ignorance is not bliss ignorance is strength help spread the truth of ignorance huh if ignorance is strength then i won t distribute this piece of information if i want to follow your advice contradiction above cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article qme c k kyle eitech com ekr kyle eitech com eric rescorla writes in article qm b gn horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article qktj bn squick eitech com ekr squick eitech com eric rescorla writes in article qkn t l horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes like i said before des works whether i value my privacy or not o k which des the abstract function des that stops working in any important sense if no one cares for the importance of truth mathematics meaning information etc a des chip or des s w that stops working in any important sense if no one values science objective reality etc des does not work in a value vacuum nothing else does either this is just truth by blatant assertion your in any important sense seem to be just weasel words imagine that i have a box which accepts bytes and uses the first to ecb the second it still does a perfect job of desing whether or not any input is being made at the time whether or not anyone values mathematics if no one looks at the results or acknowledges their correctness in what meaningful sense can the chip be said to work does flibozity exist by flibozity i mean a particular extremely complex configuration of physical phenomena which no one absolutely no one cares about in the slightest does it exist eric getting back to the question of whether the des chip works doesn t work mean something like achieving the desired expected effect note the way intentionality subtly underlies that definition even if we take the definition as expected instead of desired can you deny that conformance to expectations is itself a value of sorts namely the scientific values of accuracy of prediction and reproducibility of results the phenomenologist husserl for one considered intentionality to be the primary ontological stuff from which all other ontology was built perceptions consciousness thoughts etc frank is by no means alone in seeing intentionality or values as he puts it underlying all human experience even the so called objective experiences such as measurements of the natural world or the output of your des chip kevin
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu kcochran nyx cs du edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes followups set out of talk abortion in article c fuo ff news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes am i reading this thread wrong or is this just another bemoaning of the fact that christianity has a code of objective morality please define this objective morality while you re at it please state the theory of creationism still searching for an irrelevant issue in which to mire a pro lifer i see slimy tactic kevin
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article qlvh fh horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article qkn k fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes do you mean it s moral to use force on someone who advocates the use of force with a few provisos yes minimum force for a start and it depends on what is being forced on either side or do you mean that sometimes we have to use force on such people out of necessity or self defence while recognizing that our own actions in doing so are not moral my opinion is that our actions would be moral and it would be immoral not to act if action would be both necessary and effective again there many caveats and provisios note my usage of my opinion is an admission that i don t have a lock on morals not that there is no truth about morality to have a lock on you re admitting a lot more than that you are admitting that your morals are situational you are admitting that the actions of other people and the situation you are in help to determine how you judge the moral significance of one of your own actions if you employ x degree of force that s not moral but if you employ x degree of force but previously someone else has employed y degree of force and the situation is thus and so that is moral this is quite different from saying employing force on other people is immoral period unfortunately from time to time we are obliged to do this immoral thing for reasons of self preservation and so we have to bear the moral consequences of that for what it s worth and yes i know you claim to be an agnostic it s this ability to re label things from immoral to moral that i find one of the least attractive qualities of the religious mind jon
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article qm fm horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article qkndq k fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in article qjbn na horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article kmr po cwru edu kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes you have only pushed back the undefined meaning you must now define what objective values are really you don t know what objective value is if i offered the people of the u s collectively for all of the land in america would that sound like a good deal you mean that if you can find a ridiculous price the rest of us are supposed to conclude that an objectively correct price exists i said nothing about the price i asked if the deal was good it isn t so it was a complete non sequitur is that it how does coming up with a derisory deal tell us anything about the existence of objective values you re asking us to accept that the deal you offered would be turned down and we believe that not because we appeal to objective values but becasue we know or think we know something about people all the people we know exhibit subjective values that would lead them to reject a deal of for all of the land in america great now so what jon
talk.religion.misc	re the bad press islam has recieved in article buddha du cc iastate edu buddha iastate edu scott h vann writes i recently read an article in a local paper written by an islamic person who was upset with the way islam has been portrayed by western media when a terrorist action takes place in the middle east it is always played up as an islamic terrorist however when the a serbian terrorist attacks the croations its not a christian terrorist its just a terrorist i have often tried to explain this to some close friends who believe the press that islam is somehow tied to violence often times you hear things like they just don t value human life like we do and so on i was wondering if anyone out there had any suggestions for how we can change this image or how i can help my friends to see that this is just hype i would appreciate any serious suggestions or comments via e mail and i m not interested in hearing about how right the press is very easily show them pictures of crime scenes perpetrated by christian terrorists in this country if that doesn t convince them have them talk to the victims of christian terrorism a brutal act of terrorism inspired by christian propoganda was recently commited on your very campus its very simple religious extremists of all religions put no value on human life christian and islamic fundamentalists put advancing there religion above all else even if doing so violates the religion itself p s i m not saying all christians are terrorists i m using christian terrorist in the same way the media uses islamic terrorist join the pythagorean reform church repent of your evil irrational numbers and bean eating ways accept into your heart call the pythagorean reform church bbs at
talk.religion.misc	re rosicrucian order s kent with all due respect how can i take you seriously when you have the names wrong in the st place e g the san jose rc ordo rosae crucis there is no such thing the correct name is ancient mystical order rosae crucis abbreviated amorc and the rocicrusian order created by max heindel there is no such thing either it s the rosicrucian fellowship and they clearly state that they do not pretend to descend from the order of the fama fraternitatis in addition there are many splinter groups all around europe that all claim some connection with the original group supposedly founded in the middle ages the lectorium and who else some freemason groups also have rosicrucian like separate groups even if they are far from the ideologies the rc groups have somehow in common these are not rosicrucian orders they are masonic study groups none of which claims to be descendant of the original order we might compete about how much time we have spent with this let me start i was part of the orc for about years kent what is orc if you mean amorc you didn t even learn the correct name tony
talk.religion.misc	re rosicrucian order s alamut netcom com max delysid y writes in article qppef i b usenet ins cwru edu ch cleveland freenet edu tony name just three really competing rosicrucian orders i have probably spent more time than you doing the same none of them are spin offs from o t o the opposite may be the case can we assume from this statement that you are unequivocally saying that amorc is not a spin off of oto and that in fact oto may well be a spin off of amorc i would be quite interested in hearing what evidence you have to support this claim well there is a fair amount of evidence floating around that indicates that oto has been around since at least the late s long before crowley ever heard of it how long has amorc been around yes i know that they claim to have existed as an organization clear into prehistory but i doubt that they have any organizational paperwork as a non profit that can be carbon dated to bc a lizard a lizard internet addresses alizard tweekco boo pacbell com preferred pacbell com boo tweekco alizard bang path for above alizard gentoo com backup pgp public key available on request
talk.religion.misc	re rosicrucian order s in a previous article alamut netcom com max delysid y says can we assume from this statement that you are unequivocally saying that amorc is not a spin off of oto absolutely lewis didn t care for the o t o charter from reuss he had in mind something completely diferent crowley and lewis were very different persons as you probably know and that in fact oto may well be a spin off of amorc no my overstatement sorry study harder study smarter not harder i always do
talk.religion.misc	re rosicrucian order s on the subject of how many competing rc orders there are let me point out the golden dawn is only the outer order of that tradition the inner order is the roseae rubeae et aurae crucis that s ruby rose and gold cross in rough translation the g d is a rosicrucian order as are all derivative groups of course real rosicrucians never admit to being rosicrucian enjoy the journey br anarthur queer peculiar and wyrd closed minds don t want to know jjobermark
talk.religion.misc	re rosicrucian order s in a previous article ba mrcnext cso uiuc edu b a davis howe says on the subject of how many competing rc orders there are let me point out the golden dawn is only the outer order of that tradition the inner order is the roseae rubeae et aurae crucis just wondering do you mean the lectorium rosicrucianum warning there is no point in arguing who s legit and who s not which golden dawn are you talking about just for the sake of argument reflecting no affiliation i am going to say that the true rosicrucian order is the fraternitas rosae crucis in quakertown penn any takers fraternally tony
talk.religion.misc	a treatise on the miracles of muhammad saw part the following is an introduction as to who is muhammad saw as will be covered with this treatise muhammad peace and blessings of allah be upon him saw is the last prophet of islam he is the prophet who is revealed the last holy scripture qur an by allah swa all praise be to him through the arch angel gabriel he is the seal of all prophets till the day of judgement as stated in the qur an by allah swa all praise be to him muhammad saw lived between ac all other prophethoods claimed after muhammad saw is a treason against islam against qur an against the message of allah swa muhammad saw is from the seed of ishmael another messenger of allah and son of abraham also a messenger of allah he is the messenger that previous holy scriptures foretold his coming the above mentioned verse from the qur an is from chapter verse whose rough translation is as follows muhammad is not the father of any of your men but he is the messenger of allah and the seal of the prophets and allah has full knowledge of all things commentary on the above verse when a document is sealed it is complete and there can be no further addition the holy prophet muhammad saw closed the long line of messengers allah s teaching is and will always be continuous but there has been and will be no prophet after muhammad saw the later ages will want thinkers and revivers not prophets this is not an arbitrary matter it is a decree full of knowledge and wisdom for allah has full knowledge of all things droplet vol no part a d r o p l e t from the vast ocean of the miraculous qur an translations from the arabic and turkish writings of bediuzzaman said nursi the risale i noor vol no part nineteenth letter mu jizat i ahmediye risalesi a treatise on the miracles of muhammed saw continued from droplet vol no part second sign the noble messenger saw declared his prophethood and presented to humanity a decree as the glorious qur an and manifest miracles which number according to the scholars one thousand the occurrence of those miracles in their entirety is as certain as the fact that he declared himself prophet in fact as a shown by the words of the most obstinate unbelievers quoted in various places of the wise our an even they could not deny the occurrence of his miracles but only called them hasha wa kella allah forbids sorcery in order to satisfy themselves or to deceive their followers the miracles of muhammad saw have the certainty of confirmation by consensus of ulema scholars of islam to the hundreth degree the miracle is the conformation by the creator of the universe of his declaration of prophethood it has the effect of the words you have indeed spoken the truth suppose that you said in the assembly of a ruler while being observed by him the true ruler has appointed me to such and such position at a time when you were asked to prove your claim the word yes uttered by the ruler would sufficiently support you or if the ruler changed his usual practice and attitude at your request this would confirm your claim even more soundly and more definitely than would the word yes in the same way allah s most noble messenger claimed i am the envoy of the creator of this universe my proof is that he will change his unbroken order at my request and my prayer now look at my fingers he makes them run like a fountain with five spigots look at the moon by a gesture of my finger he splits it in two look at that tree to affirm me and to bear witness to me it moves and comes near to me look at this food although it is barely enough for two or three men it satisfies two or three hundred further he shows hundreds of similar miracles however the evidences of the veracity of this high being and the proofs of his prophethood are not restricted to his miracles all his deeds and acts his words and behavior his moral conduct and manners his character and appearance prove to the attentive his truthfulness and seriousness indeed many people such as abdullah b salam the famous scholar of the children of israel came to belief merely by seeing him and said no lie can hide in this face nor can any fraud be found in it although many of the researchers have concluded that the proofs of the prophethood of muhammad and his miracles number about one thousand there are thousands perhaps hundreds of thousands of proofs of his prophethood and hundreds of thousands of truth seeking men muhakkikiin with varying opinions have affirmed his prophethood in an equal number of ways the wise our an alone demonstrates thousands of the proofs of his prophethood in addition to its own forty aspects of miraculousness since prophethood is as a phenomenon of humanity and hundreds of thousands of individuals who claimed prophethood and performed miracles have lived and passed away then the prophethood of muhammad saw is of a certanity superior to that of the prophethood of all the others for whatever evidences qualities and attributes became the means of the prophethood and messengership of all the messengers such as jesus as and moses as they are all owned in a more perfect and comprehensive fashion by muhammad saw and since the causes and means of prophetic authority exist more perfectly in the person of muhammad saw this authority is to be found in him with more certanity than all the other prophets to be continued allah willing irfan alan a servant of islam
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is kevin rotag mi org kevin darcy writes in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu kcochran nyx cs du edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes followups set out of talk abortion in article c fuo ff news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes am i reading this thread wrong or is this just another bemoaning of the fact that christianity has a code of objective morality please define this objective morality while you re at it please state the theory of creationism still searching for an irrelevant issue in which to mire a pro lifer i see slimy tactic kevin well when you crosspost to talk origins what do you expect michael agney just because you re paranoid doesn t mean they re not out to get you magney cco caltech edu
talk.religion.misc	re albert sabin in article c p t sunfish usd edu rfox charlie usd edu writes in article apr rambo atlanta dg com wpr atlanta dg com bill rawlins writes however one highly biased account as well as possibly internally inconsistent written over mellenia ago in a dead language by fanatic devotees of the creature in question which is not supported by other more objective sources and isnt even accepted by those who s messiah this creature was supposed to be doesn t convince me in the slightest especially when many of the current day devotees appear brainwashed into believing this pile of guano since you have referred to the messiah i assume you are referring to the new testament please detail your complaints or e mail if you don t want to post first century greek is well known and well understood have you considered josephus the jewish historian who also wrote of jesus in addition the four gospel accounts are very much in harmony bill i have taken the time to explain that biblical scholars consider the josephus reference to be an early christian insert by biblical scholar i mean an expert who in the course of his or her research is willing to let the chips fall where they may this excludes literalists who may otherwise be defined as biblical apologists they find what they want to find they are not trustworthy by scholarly standards and others why an insert read it i have a number of times the passage is glaringly out of context and josephus a superb writer had no such problem elsewhere in his work the passage has nothing to do with the subject matter in which it lies it suddenly appears and then just as quickly disappears i think this is a weak argument the fact is there are two references to jesus in antiquities of the jews one of which has unquestionably at least been altered by christians origen wrote in the third century that josephus did not recognize jesus as the messiah while the long passage says the opposite there is an arabic manuscript of antiquities of the jews which contains a version of the passage which is much less gung ho for jesus and may be authentic there is no question that origen in the third century saw a reference to jesus in josephus there are no manuscripts of antiquities which lack the references it is possible that it was fabricated out of whole cloth and inserted but i don t think it s very likely nor do i think there is a consensus in the scholarly community that this is the case i know g a wells takes this position but that s because he takes the very small minority view that jesus never existed and he is a professor of german not of biblical history or new testament or anything directly relevant to the historicity of jesus jim lippard lippard ccit arizona edu dept of philosophy lippard arizvms bitnet university of arizona tucson az
talk.religion.misc	re rosicrucian order s ch cleveland freenet edu tony alicea writes in a previous article ba mrcnext cso uiuc edu b a davis howe says on the subject of how many competing rc orders there are let me point out the golden dawn is only the outer order of that tradition the inner order is the roseae rubeae et aurae crucis just wondering do you mean the lectorium rosicrucianum warning there is no point in arguing who s legit and who s not which golden dawn are you talking about no i don t mean the lr whatever that is as for which gd i m using the complete golden dawn system of magic as my source so unless regardie is lying i m pulling the name out the the original order s rituals the multiple modern groups are part of why i through in the comment about all the spin offs just for the sake of argument reflecting no affiliation i am going to say that the true rosicrucian order is the fraternitas rosae crucis in quakertown penn as a member of the religious society of friends my membership is in the urbana champaign il friends meeting i find that amusingly ironic any takers not me i don t want to belong to anything which runs around claiming to be the true whatever i find that disgusting enjoy the journey br anarthur queer peculiar and wyrd closed minds don t want to know jjobermark
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is judi wam umd edu jay t stein objectively subjective writes question is there any effective difference between objective values exist and there is disagreement over what they are and values are subjective i don t see any the first means that some aspect of reality contains objective values the second means that values are a reference to some preference of the individual in the first case it is possible that some future discovery might invalidate certain views re what objective values are ron house usq house helios usq edu au toowoomba australia
talk.religion.misc	re flaming nazis in article qsami h access digex net dickeney access digex com dick eney writes the trouble with trying to find out the truth is that roehm and his buddies were accused of being flaming faggots one of the pretexts for the night of long knives in which roehm and most of the sa wing of the nsdap were purged stop hold it you have a few problems here official history says that the first accusations of homosexuality in the sa came from outside of the nazi party long before the nazis ever came to power so this objection is a red herring even if established history is wrong on this point moreover none of the histories i ve read ever made mention of hitler or anyone else ever using homosexuality as a pretext for purging roehm a point i saw reiterated was that hitler and the party covered up these accusations if you are going to accuse official history of being a fabrication you should at least get your facts right the pretext for purging roehm was that he was planning to use the sa in a coup against hitler nowhere is there mention of using allegations of homosexuality as a pretext for the purge nor as a justification afterwards it is possible that the histories i ve read have not mentioned this but i doubt it would it be in hitler s best interest to admit to the world that his former right hand man was a homosexual anyway as i said before it is always possible that i have missed references to the nazis making use of charges of homosexuality against the sa after the night of the long knives but this does not prove that they were false even the nazis could tell the truth when it was to their advantage in any case this does not deal with accusations of homosexuality in the sa during the s since the accusers thereafter controlled the records anything bearing on the subject true or not has to be considered tainted evidence ah yes i forgot this was being posted to alt conspiracy i can smell the paranoia from here since the nazis never officially charged roehm with homosexuality at least not according to what i ve read i d like to know what tainted evidence you are talking about since the accusations were made by persons outside of the nazi party long before it came to power and those accusations were common knowledge to journalists and others in germany in the s and s just how would it be possible for the nazis to go back in time and plant tainted evidence how exactly does one doctor newspapers which were circulated around the world without the discrepancies being obvious what actual incidences of nazi doctoring evidence on this matter do you know about and what about the testimony of people who were involved in these matters some of whom were not nazis and what is the point of making a false accusation of homosexuality if you do not publicize it since the point here seems to be to discredit established history then the burden of proof falls on the revisionist the revisionists had better do their homework before making accusations otherwise they simply look like conspiracy nuts the available data suggest that roehm and his crowd the sa sturmabteilung storm troopers left the world a better place when they departed this is just about the only thing we agree on i suspect that the notion that there might have been bad people roehm and his sa buddies who were homosexuals must disturb some people the feeling seems to be that if a nasty individual is accused of homosexuality that this must be an attempt to bash homosexuals this fear often justified is what lies behind this distrust of official history or so it seems to me but this is not a good justification for trashing accepted accounts of this subject if you really think that historians are so incompetent why don t you write them and ask where they got their sources on this subject if you can t tell from their footnotes i m a graduate student in history writing to professors and tracking down sources is old hat but my time is limited and this is not my specialty and neither you nor anyone else have said anything that would cast one shred of doubt on existing evidence i m not going to waste my time trying to debunk someone s paranoia do the research yourself but concrete particulars are still no more than more or less shrewd guesses diccon frankborn given that you already consider all evidence tainted what on earth would constitute concrete particulars and since when have concrete particulars been considered shrewd guesses i suggest that those who do not trust popular historians irving et al historians writing for a popular audience do not as a rule provide copious footnotes should try instead reading academic historians who usually provide footnotes to all their sources in immmense detail this is the place to start looking assuming that one really wants to know the truth i ll bet the folks on alt pagan are tired of this subject already my apologies we seem to have gone off on a bit of a tangent i forget which gods are responsible for keeping strings within appropriate newsgroup subject boundaries david matthew deane deane binah cc brandeis edu be in me as the eternal moods of the bleak wind let the gods speak softly of us in days hereafter ezra pound
talk.religion.misc	re clarification of personal position jesus and the law sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes my online bible is on a cd but i don t own a cd rom system for the time being so i can t search for the famous cite where jesus explicitly states that he didn t want to break existing jewish laws in other words technically speaking christians should use saturday and not sunday as their holy day if they want to conform to the teachings of jesus i think the passage you re looking for is the following matthew think not that i have come to abolish the law and the prophets i have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them matthew for truly i say to you till heaven and earth pass away not an iota not a dot will pass from the law until all is accomplished matthew whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven matthew for i tell you unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and pharisees you will never enter the kingdom of heaven there are several problems with this the most serious is that the law was regarded by jews at the time and now as binding on jews but not on gentiles there are rules that were binding on all human beings the so called noachic laws but they are quite minimal the issue that the church had to face after jesus death was what to do about gentiles who wanted to follow christ the decision not to impose the law on them didn t say that the law was abolished it simply acknowledged that fact that it didn t apply to gentiles this is a simple answer which i think just about everyone can agree to a discussion of the issue in more or less these terms is recorded in acts however there s more involved in order to get a full picture of the role of the law we have to come to grips with paul s apparent rejection of the law and how that relates to jesus commendation of the law at least as i read paul he says that the law serves a purpose that has been in a certain sense superceded again this issue isn t one of the abolition of the law in the middle of his discussion paul notes that he might be understood this way and assures us that that s not what he intends to say rather he sees the law as primarily being present to convict people of their sinfulness but ultimately it s an impossible standard and one that has been superceded by christ paul s comments are not the world s clearest here and not everyone agrees with my reading but the interesting thing to notice is that even this radical position does not entail an abolition of the law it still remains as an uncompromising standard from which not an iota or dot may be removed for its purpose of convicting of sin it s important that it not be relaxed however for christians it s not the end ultimately we live in faith not law while the theoretical categories they use are rather different in the end i think jesus and paul come to a rather similar conclusion the quoted passage from mat should be taken in the context of the rest of the sermon on the mount where jesus shows us how he interprets the law the not an iota or dot would suggest a rather literal reading but in fact that s not jesus approach jesus interpretations emphasize the intent of the law and stay away from the ceremonial details indeed he is well known for taking a rather free attitude towards the sabbath and kosher laws some scholars claim that mat needs to be taken in the context of st cent jewish discussions jesus accuses his opponents of caring about giving a tenth of even the most minor herbs but neglecting the things that really matter justice mercy and faith and caring about how cups and plates are cleaned but not about the fact that inside the people who use them are full of extortion and rapacity mat this and the discussion later in mat suggest that jesus has a very specific view of the law in mind and that when he talks about maintaining the law in its full strength he is thinking of these aspects of it paul s conclusion is similar while he talks about the law being superceded all of the specific examples he gives involve the ceremonial law such as circumcision and the sabbath he is quite concerned about maintaining moral standards the net result of this is that when paul talks about the law being superceded and jesus talks about the law being maintained i believe they are talking about different aspects of the law paul is embroiled in arguments about circumcision as is natural in letters responding to specific situations he s looking at the aspect of the law that is currently causing trouble the law as specifically jewish ceremonies he certainly does not intend to abolish divine standards of conduct on the other hand when jesus commends the law he seems to be talking the law in its broadest implications for morals and human relationships and deemphasizing those aspects that were later to give paul so much trouble it s unfortunate that people use the same terms in different ways but we should be familiar with that from current conflicts look at the way terms like family values take on special meaning from the current context imagine some poor historian of the future trying to figure out why family values should be used as a code word for opposition to homosexuality in one specific period in the u s i think law had taken on a similar role in the arguments paul was involved in paul was clearly not rejecting all of the jewish values that go along with the term law any more than people who concerned about the family values movement are really opposed to family values
talk.religion.misc	re rosicrucian order s in article qsqar n m usenet ins cwru edu ch cleveland freenet edu tony alicea writes in a previous article ba mrcnext cso uiuc edu b a davis howe says on the subject of how many competing rc orders there are let me point out the golden dawn is only the outer order of that tradition the inner order is the roseae rubeae et aurae crucis just wondering do you mean the lectorium rosicrucianum warning there is no point in arguing who s legit and who s not which golden dawn are you talking about which golden dawn how about the original from years ago just for the sake of argument reflecting no affiliation i am going to say that the true rosicrucian order is the fraternitas rosae crucis in quakertown penn any takers no no rosicrucian would ever admit or deny being such wassail grendel grettisson
talk.religion.misc	re merlin mithras and magick kosinski us oracle com kevin osinski writes i recall reading in michael rutherford s novel sarum a scene in which the son of a roman nobleman living in britain takes part in a secret ceremony involving a bull he stands naked in a pit covered with some sort of scaffolding while assistants coax a bull to stand on the scaffolding they then fatally stab the bull which douses the worshipper in the pit with blood this is supposedly some sort of rite of passage for members of the bull cult i wonder if this is related to the mithras cult yes this is certainly one of the traditional ideas about the mithraic cult although not the only one it had many elements that seem to have been borrowed by catholicism e g the mass communion the sharing of a sacred meal consecration of bread and wine etc for quite an amusing novel that uses this same idea check out the covenant of the flame by david morrell it has some quite interesting occult bits and lots of killing i won t spoil it by revealing the ending but i will say that it is relevant to mithraism paul actrix co at paul gillingwater home office in vienna austria if you read news with rn or trn ask me about eep the newsrc editor
talk.religion.misc	part and part re homosexuality tony i read your post it was nothing new i had seen much the same in other typical christian anti gay sentimental literature gay people are and will con tinue to be persecuted as long as such propaganda petpetuates you may be unaware of all the statistica findings concerning african americans that have been published and used by various groups to re enforce their own bias against african americans we usually think of the kkk in these instances but there are many other groups of course the vast majority of the public scoff at such findings and documents today but that was not always the case fortunately african americans had whites who supported their cause and public sentiment was eventually if not entirely turned around there was even a civil war and anti negro sentiment increased in fact until laws were put in place to protect the inalienable rights of blacks it was pretty much legal to discriminate against them i know many gays and i will not turn my back on them or their right to be free form discrimination you may think that i have been deceived or something that is your perogative my church christian church disciples of christ openly affirms the rights of oppressed people of all segments of society including gays we believe the gospel message of preaching to all creation and making disciples we believe in the lord s great commandment to love and we beleive in standing up for the oppressed even if it is not popular to do so i really like my church for last reason the most i can find a church almost anywhere in the valley that stands for the gospel and believes in the commandment of love though i m hard pressed to find many who actually sho love but not many are willing to champion the oppressed especially within their own community i may have lost face with the greater christian community for the unpopularity of my beliefs but so did the abolitionists against the oppression of african americans many were even killed and treated as runaway slaves for being nigger lovers and such i guess i ve decided the challenge is worth it in my talks with gay men and women i have heard tragic story after tragic story centering around failed marriages wives and husbands who are straight who have been hurt in the process etc funny thing is i don t know of one case where the parents ex wives or even children have continued to reject their gay family member son daughter ex husband father etc after they began to take part in some form of support group like pflag i m apalled by the legislation which passed in colorado and am equally out raged that such slimey people as louis sheldon from the tradition values coalition have been actively working in the christian underground to garner support within several i believe states this coming november for more oppressive legisation against gays perhaps you don t get it and maybe you never will many didn t get it in the middle ages and the proclaimed god s will be done as they massacred thousands in witch hunts and inquisitions the message that comes through loud and clear by proponents against gay rights and against gays in general is that there is a strong dislike even hatred for gays whether you want to call it such or not it doesn t change the results the major flaw in all this posturing is that in the end the final effect of posts like that of yours and mr hudson is that you have a conditional love for gays condition change and we ll love you this is sure strange coming from a group who claim that god has an unconditional love one that calls people just as they are sure there are things that will naturally change and habits like alcoholism wife beating etc that need to be changed through some sort of therapy but then there are things like left handedness etc that no amount of beating it out of people is going to result in anything more than an outward conforminty to other people s expectations in the process this coerced conformity causes many people a great deal of harm especially when it is caused by people who have nothing more to gain from it that to become even more puffed up about their own sense of pseuper spirituality this is sad but i thoroughly believe that one day it will change it may be unpopular to cry for justice and equality when the basis has to do with something very personal like sexuality a taboo subject even today but i firmly believe in the rights of individuals to be free from impose regulation on thier bedrooms it s funny that most straight people have successfully removed restrictive and oppressive legislation against invasive legislation but we like to maintain this little chestnut of repression as though it helps us maintain a sense of superiority over at least one segment of society gay people are not criminals another interesting thing happened recently a very prominent charismatic church in the silicon valley here had two of it s pastors arrested for self admitted charges of pederasty men having sex with boys this had apparently been going on for some time a couple years but since the charges were voluntary and the church worked closely with the police so i imagine that was how they managed to downplay it in the media how could such a thing happen when the church itself has an ex gay ministry one of my friends recently told me he was approached by someone who is going through the reparitive therapy there and he was thoroughly convinced that the request for dinner was not an invitation to attend the ministry these are difficult times we live in but providing hostile environments and creating and perpetuating an atmosphere that breed hate and violence is not the call of the christian community the results of the passing amendment in colorado has created an organization who s posters are appearing all over colorado called s t r a i g h t i forget the whole definition off hand but the last part was against immoral gross homosexual trash and their motto is working for a fag free america with an implicit advocation for violence this is sick and it seems to be what you and mr hudson and others are embracing we christians have a loooooooooong tradition of coersion and oppression towards those we feel don t measure up and constant beratement from organizations like the christian research institute while they do have a good purpose also their major work seems to be finding new and better ways of excluding people the gospel i believe is not so negative rather it seeks ways to include people i have several of dr martin s books and find them quite helpful especially concerning cults but it seems that cri has become a cult unto itself why don t we just stick to the positive and find ways to bring people to jesus istead of taking bullwhips and driving them away whatever rich
talk.religion.misc	re christian daemons biblical demons the u the neighbor of the beast no is across the street from the beast and are the neighbors of the beast i think some people are still not clear on this is not the neighbor of the beast but rather across the street it is in fact which is the neighbor of the beast no sheesh didn t you know is the beast s apartment is across the hall from the beast and is his neighbor along with the rest of the th floor justin still trying to figure out what this has to do with alt discordia this doesn t seem discordant to you paul w stigaard lokean discordian libertarian xoa internet stigaard mhd moorhead msus edu fnord episkopos and chair moorhead state university campus discordians rectal neufotomist at large if i left a quote here someone would think it meant something
talk.religion.misc	re a kind and loving god in article aa dangermouse mitre org jmeritt mental mitre org writes leviticus and the daughter of any priest if she profane herself by playing the whore she profaneth her father she shall be burnt with fire deuteronomy and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father s house and the men of the city shall stone her with stones that she die deuteronomy if a man be found lying with a woman married to a husband then they shall both of them die deuteronomy if a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto a husband and a man find her in the city and lie with her then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city and ye shall stone them with stones that they die deuteronomy but if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field and the man force her and lie with her then the man only that lay with her shall die if it were nt for the sin of men none of this killing would have been necesarry he is kind and loving but also righteous sin must be punished before jesus man had to take the sins on himself but jesus died and took it all upon him so now we also have a forgiving god if he were not kind and loving there wouldn t have been any people left
talk.religion.misc	re part and part re homosexuality rich bellacera amail amdahl com writes the results of the passing amendment in colorado has created an organization who s posters are appearing all over colorado called s t r a i g h t i forget the whole definition off hand but the last part was against immoral gross homosexual trash and their motto is working for a fag free america with an implicit advocation for violence i live in colorado and have never heard of such a group obviously claims that their posters are appearing all over colorado are a tad overdone this is sick and it seems to be what you and mr hudson and others are embracing hardly saying that homosexuality is a sin is a far cry from working for a fag free america saying that i wouldn t want a homosexual babysitting for my kids doesnt mean i endorse against immoral gross homosexual trash we christians have a loooooooooong tradition of coersion and oppression towards those we feel don t measure up and now we have homosexual advocates telling us that if we don t teach our kids that homosexuality is natural and a perfectly acceptable alternative lifestyle then they will have it done for us no thanks the gospel i believe is not so negative rather it seeks ways to include people absolutely and the message is always go and sin no more not go and do whatever feels good one question at the start of your post you wrote i know many gays and i will not turn my back on them or their right to be free form discrimination i may have lost face with the greater christian community for the unpopularity of my beliefs but so did the abolitionists against the oppression of african americans many were even killed and treated as runaway slaves for being nigger lovers and such i guess i ve decided the challenge is worth it this sounds real nice but struck me as a little odd you re presenting yourself as if you were a straight xian who is sticking his neck out and taking on the challenge of speaking out in support of gays in the church but i was under the impression that you yourself are gay that s all well and fine but presenting yourself as sticking out your neck to help repressed others seems a bit untruthful under the circumstances walter
talk.religion.misc	re apr god s promise in john in article f vmpxk quack kfu com pharvey quack kfu com paul harvey writes in article bskendigc h o d p netcom com bskendig netcom com brian kendig writes psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu robert weiss writes but if we walk in the light as he is in the light we have fellowship one with another and the blood of jesus christ his son cleanseth us from all sin it can not be a light which cleanses if it is tainted with the blood of an innocent man human blood sacrifice martyrdom of an innocent virgin nailed to a wooden pole what is this obsession with male menstruation christian washed in the blood of the lamb mithraist washed in the blood of the bull if anyone in netland is in the process of devising a new religion do not use the lamb or the bull because they have already been reserved please choose another animal preferably one not on the endangered species list thank you
talk.religion.misc	re christian owned organization list in article sdcc ucsd edu shopper ucsd edu writes does anyone have or know where i can find a list of christian owned corporations and companies one that i know of is wordperfect naw the owners of wordperfect are mormons and by tony rose s and robert weiss standards mormons aren t christians internet slhw cc usu edu jason hunsaker logan utah
talk.religion.misc	walter walter i tried several times in the past to communicate with you and susan but you ignored me and i don t honestly believe my letters were mean rather i thought they were thoughtful and compassionate but i see now what i should have seen then call me naive i give up on this group as my lord advised that if you are unwelcome in a city then brush the dust of your feet and go on if anyone cares about the topic they write to me direct if not well may god bless you as well bye to this group pax
talk.religion.misc	re kind loving merciful and forgiving god in article blue cis pitt edu joslin pogo isp pitt edu david joslin writes m mwunix mitre org james meritt writes joslin pogo isp pitt edu david joslin writes m mwunix mitre org james meritt writes a out of context must have missed when you said this about these other promises of god that we keep getting subjected to could you please explain why i am wrong and they are ok or an acknowledgement of public hypocrisy both or neither so according to you jim the only way to criticize one person for taking a quote out of context without being a hypocrite is to post a response to every person on t r m who takes a quote out of context did i either ask or assert that or is this your misaimed telepathy at work again stephen said you took a quote out of context you noted that stephen had not replied to some other t r m article call it a that took a quote out of context but the lack of evidence for x does not constitute evidence for the lack of x a common creationist error so the fact that stephen did not reply to a does not justify the conclusion that stephen condoned taking quotes out of context in a excellent now under what conditions could such a conclusion be made other than a direct assertion by his part for instance am i to assume that you have no position on eating shit merely because you have not said your position or might a conclusion be made by observing that you do not i assumed you were being logical and that the sentence that begins could you please explain was not a nonsequitur but was intended to follow from the sentence that preceded it is that better jim it s called an argument if you disagree with it explain why the argument is not sound i admit that my assumption in may have been a bit hasty if you agree with it just say yup have you by chance ever even heard of inductive logic you are not demonstrating any familiarly with it i e you are being insufficiently logical
talk.religion.misc	re a kind and loving god in article aa dangermouse mitre org jmeritt mental mitre org writes leviticus and the daughter of any priest if she profane herself by playing the whore she profaneth her father she shall be burnt with fire deuteronomy and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father s house and the men of the city shall stone her with stones that she die deuteronomy if a man be found lying with a woman married to a husband then they shall both of them die deuteronomy if a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto a husband and a man find her in the city and lie with her then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city and ye shall stone them with stones that they die deuteronomy but if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field and the man force her and lie with her then the man only that lay with her shall die these laws written for the israelites god s chosen people whom god had expressly set apart from the rest of the world the israelites were a direct witness to god s existence to disobey god after knowing that god is real would be an outright denial of god and therefore immediately punishable remember these laws were written for a different time and applied only to god s chosen people but jesus has changed all of that we are living in the age of grace sin is no longer immediately punishable by death there is repentance and there is salvation through our lord jesus christ and not just for a few chosen people salvation is available to everyone jew and gentile alike god be with you malcolm lee
talk.religion.misc	re apr god s promise in john brian kendig writes lev for the life of the flesh is in the blood and i have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul the old testament was very big on the eye for an eye business it makes sense that leviticus would support physical injury to repay moral wrongdoing brian k guess what you missed the point on a scale from cold to hot you are at degrees kelvin i know about sanctification i ve been taught all about it in sunday school catechism class and theology classes but even after all that i still can t accept it maybe i m still not understanding it or maybe i m just understanding it all too well then as you understand it what is it from the bottom of my heart i know that the punishment of an innocent man is wrong yes i agree with that but what does that have to do with jesus punishment you say jesus did not regard his death as punishment i ve tried repeatedly over the course of several years to accept it but i just can t good i wouldn t either not the way you understand it if you can explain to me why the death of jesus was a good thing then i would be very glad to hear it and you might even convert me be warned however that i ve heard all the most common arguments before and they just don t convince me ask jesus himself he himself said why in john it isn t a mystery to anyone and there certainly is no need for a persuasive argument read jesus s own reply to your question jesus gives more reasons in john but one obvious reason why jesus died and as with everything else it has nothing do with his punishment was that he could rise to life again so that we would stop doubting and believe john the fact that jesus rose from the dead is my hope that i too will rise from the dead it is an obvious point do not overlook it without this obvious point i would have no hope and my faith would be vanity why did jesus suffer in his death again ask jesus jesus says why in john that s no mystery either the world hates him without reason it is a direct proclamation of how far we humans botch things up and thus how much we need a saviour and why can t you brian k accept this how can you the world cannot accept him because it neither sees him nor knows him john the animosity and the lack of knowledge that comes out in your twistings of robert s daily verses is very convincing testimony of the truth of john and i pray and hope that i do blurt out such animosity and lack of knowledge i am not perfect either but regardless of that i thank god that jesus revealed himself to me without whom i d also be bumbling about blindly though arrogantly slandering the very person who created me and who loves me
talk.religion.misc	re apr god s promise in john in article bskendigc i yh icp netcom com bskendig netcom com brian kendig writes if you can explain to me why the death of jesus was a good thing then i would be very glad to hear it and you might even convert me be warned however that i ve heard all the most common arguments before and they just don t convince me be warned it is not my job to convert you that is the job of the holy spirit and i frankly make a lousy one i am only here to testify your conversion is between you and god i am out of the loop if you decide to follow jesus of which i indeed would be estatic then all the glory be to god brian ceccarelli brian gamma lpl arizona edu
talk.religion.misc	re kind loving merciful and forgiving god m mwunix mitre org james meritt writes so the fact that stephen did not reply to a does not justify the conclusion that stephen condoned taking quotes out of context in a excellent now under what conditions could such a conclusion be made other than a direct assertion by his part replace stephen with david joslin since you directed the same accusation of hypocrisy at me in e mail to me you wrote in t r m robert weiss writes a promise from psalm gee since you wouldn t be at all hypocritical you must be really busy arguing against these out of context extracted translations as you may recall you mailed me six mail messages quoting articles by robert weiss all sent within a few minutes of each other you added naturally i await your arguments against this out of context translation but i shall not await holding my breath and wonder when you get to sleep disputing all these out of context extracted translations and other similar comments perhaps you could explain why you ever thought that i might have a reason to read all of these articles you pulled off of t r m much less write responses to them have you by chance ever even heard of inductive logic you are not demonstrating any familiarly with it i e you are being insufficiently logical i am familiar with inductive logic go ahead and give me the details of the logic that led you to conclude incorrectly that i would condone robert weiss taking verses out of context your conclusion was wrong of course since i agree that both you and robert weiss were guity of taking verses out of context nothing hypocritical about that is there since you reached a false conclusion you made some mistake in your logic the only question is where did you think that it would be hypocritical for me not to post a reply to robert weiss articles did you make the common creationist error of confusing a lack of evidence for x with evidence for the lack of x is your grasp of inductive logic not quite as firm as you think see if you can figure out what your mistake was and learn from it dj
talk.religion.misc	re judas crucifixion tyre etc in article qe qk t news ysu edu af yfn ysu edu frank decenso jr writes i need to prioritize things in my life and this board is not all that important to me my personal relationship wife the lord is first my wife is second and my ministry at church is third not to mention my job have you informed your wife of this prioritization this board will have to wait until if ever i can organize my life to fit it in i tried dropping out but sieferman coerced me to come back he won t this time thou hast used my name in vain i never coerce ridicule maybe but never coerce please take responsibility for your actions deletia i m history frank i appreciate your efforts good luck
talk.religion.misc	re biblical contradictions and archer jenny anderson jennya well sf ca us wrote medtronic com dale m skiba entirely missed my point in my previous posting in which i wrote firmly on the western coast of the med you can bet ium gonna keep this baby my my my such double standards you neglected to give any primary sources for your book encyclopedia of the bible are we to expect that source to be as unbiased as the other sources mr butler did give at least one source you have given none reply it was a joke the readers digest encyclopedia of the bible was the most outrageously bogus authority i could dredge from my shelves i was trying to point out that going to some encyclopedia rather than original or scholarly sources is a big mistake in procedure i am glad to note that butler and decesno are arguing about substance now rather than about arguing i guess the joke was on me i am so used to seeing bogus stuff posted here that i assumed that yours was necessarily the same dale skiba
talk.religion.misc	re bible contradictions and archer jenny anderson jennya well sf ca us wrote medtronic com dale m skiba entirely missed my point in my previous posting in which i wrote comment shortly after that post i realized two things i was running a fever of over and that i probably should not have gone directly from reading alt slack to posting on this august newsgroup it is not ad hominen to point out that mr archer willingly prints blatant lies in defense of bible inerrancy and thus is worthless as an expert witness okay im game give us a listing of blatant lies from encyclopedia of biblical difficulties or other archer writings that would be interesting if only a very short list can be generated i think it is more likely that mr archer with his inerancy mindset is not always impartial and made a doozy of a mistake imho i also think that this mindset tends to generate these sorts of mistakes on the other hand if a long list can be generated it is more likely that mr archer intentionally uses deception in hs books why should he be deceptive just with tyre so archer is just sitting around rubbing his hands and plotting how next to deceive ok lets see the list this was an open question i assumed that if mr archer is a chronic liar someone whould have documented it this assumption is based on how talk origins regulars have documented numerous cases of creationist deceptions such as duane guish and his friends no long list of archer mistakes has yet been given so this may be just an isolated incident dale skiba
talk.religion.misc	re did he really rise i must correct the following in my previous posting if you are trying to be objective you must also recognise that the gospels are not independent sources on the contrary they share much of the same material i should have been a bit more careful here the gospels not only tell us about the same events they usually use the same wordings textual analyses show that matthew and luke probably had a common source which may have influenced mark too petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics is the truth pihatie c finou oulu fi physics is the rule of sf oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu fi chemistry is the game
talk.religion.misc	catholic lit crit of a s s in article qevbh h v agate berkeley edu dzkriz ocf berkeley edu dennis kriz writes a lot of religious opinions and quotations from the bible and from many catholic theologians and papal bulls which although introduced with a smiley was not as funny as it might have been notable exception subject headers such as one s dick is one s instrument of redemption and indeed the posting seemed to be more a vehicle for the religious text than for any literary moral analysis i am surprised and saddened i would expect this kind of behavior from the evangelical born again gospel thumping in your face we re the only true christian protestants but i have always thought that catholics behaved better than this friend dennis i urge you to follow the example of your fellow catholics of who i count many dozens as my friends and practice your faith through good example and decent living and respect for the common humanity of others please do not stoop to the level of the e b a g t i y f w t o t c protestants who think that the best way to witness is to be strident intrusive loud insulting and overbearingly self righteous the imagery in the song of solomon is a little bit dated get it middle east date palms oh never mind but apparently acceptable on a steaminess level to be accepted as part of the canon from this fact i derive that erotica itself is not incompatible with catholic doctrine is there such a thing as catholic erotica not necessarily a love story between people of that faith but a love story that is not exploitative does not seek redemption through penis size pays proper respect to the dignity of each partner and is still erotic enough to have a place on a s s i would submit that the darknites series of stories qualify also most of the journal entries and rings i and ii i would guess that your aim is to cut down on the pornography and increase the erotica i actually agree with you that nearly all of the i ve got an enormous dick and i shot my wad all over her face stories are crap i count them as noise which makes my take on the signal to noise ration much lower than many other people s since you are one of the few posters here who can actually write decent prose could you write a few stories for us instead of overwhelming us with commentary anyway this is a big subject please add your comments additions and observations sincerely dennis dzkriz ocf berkeley edu thank you jeff foster mtechca maintech com
talk.religion.misc	re apr god s promise in john in article apr organpipe uug arizona edu brian lpl arizona edu brian ceccarelli wrote jesus gives more reasons in john but one obvious reason why jesus died and as with everything else it has nothing do with his punishment was that he could rise to life again so that we would stop doubting and believe john the fact that jesus rose from the dead is my hope that i too will rise from the dead it is an obvious point do not overlook it without this obvious point i would have no hope and my faith would be vanity glad to hear this just a note osiris mithras and many other cult gods resurrected as well so there s a good chance for all of us to maybe end up in a virtual reality simulator and live forever hurrah sorry this was a joke some sort of one anyway i m the first that connected osiris with a virtual reality personality database time to write a book cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re apr god s promise in john in article qknu innbhv shelley u washington edu christian washed in the blood of the lamb mithraist washed in the blood of the bull if anyone in netland is in the process of devising a new religion do not use the lamb or the bull because they have already been reserved please choose another animal preferably one not on the endangered species list this will be a hard task because most cultures used most animals for blood sacrifices it has to be something related to our current post modernism state hmm what about used computers cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re a kind and loving god in article apr ra royalroads ca mlee post royalroads ca malcolm lee wrote these laws written for the israelites god s chosen people whom god had expressly set apart from the rest of the world the israelites were a direct witness to god s existence to disobey god after knowing that god is real would be an outright denial of god and therefore immediately punishable remember these laws were written for a different time and applied only to god s chosen people but jesus has changed all of that we are living in the age of grace sin is no longer immediately punishable by death there is repentance and there is salvation through our lord jesus christ and not just for a few chosen people salvation is available to everyone jew and gentile alike jews won t agree with you malcolm cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re comments on the koresh transcript in article apr microsoft com iank microsoft com ian kennedy writes stephen wrote correction to my prior post proper citation is isaiah moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold as the light of seven days in the day that the lord bindeth up the breach of his people and healeth the stroke of their wound so we have to wait for the sun to nova more along the lines of hebrews i reckon see that you refuse not him that speaks for if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth much more shall not we escape if we turn away from him that speaks from heaven whose voice then shook the earth but now he has promised saying yet once more i shake not the earth only but also heaven and this word yet once more signifies the removing of those things that are shaken as of things that are made that those things which cannot be shaken may remain wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved let us have grace whereby we may serve god acceptably with reverence and godly fear for our god is a consuming fire or nd thessalonians and to you who are troubled rest with us when the lord jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not god and that obey not the gospel of our lord jesus christ who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the lord and from the glory of his power when he shall come to be glorified in his saints and to be admired in all them that believe because our testimony among you was believed in that day kinda gives flaming a whole new meaning i reckon the impression i got from talking with livingston was that the coming of the lord power wise is going to be something that those who are unprepared can t handle kinda like overloading a fuse due to guilt somehow it seems to also apply to the entire physical world as we know it lf suggests that god doesn t want that and has sent koresh as a reminder seems that those who have been purified through salvation or that those protected by the seals will be the ones who survive and no i don t have a good idea yet what being shielded by the seals actually involves or how exactly it relates to salvation other than it involves the marriage of the bridegroom and the bride for those of you biblical well versed me personally i m totally dependent on god through christ so if god wants me to understand good if not also good if god wants to save me or dispose of me that s great either way being born in the spirit means being part of the body of christ ephesians so who and what i was matters little what s important is loving god come nova nuke or apocalypse who cares satan might even be able to pull off a pretty convincing fake big deal not worth fearing or worrying about though not before the greater glory of god maybe koresh is right maybe he isn t and it should be interesting to see the new message or prophecy the tour of the bible i ve taken in studying the passages he points to in the text has been most re warding but the test of prophecy is still the fruit it bears which is not yet clear much much more important is charity which by definition is love for god i hope dear reader you ve taken all this as an expression of faith and not a statement of mere fact seems many folks get real upset at reminders j stephen
talk.religion.misc	re apr god s promise in john on apr gmt eric sieferman observed christian washed in the blood of the lamb mithraist washed in the blood of the bull if anyone in netland is in the process of devising a new religion do not use the lamb or the bull because they have already been reserved please choose another animal preferably one not on the endangered species list how about washed in the blood of barney the dinosaur michael d adams starowl a i rahul net
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian m in qksc mr fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com writes in article qkoel fr horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes good question my point was that a world with truth is better than a world with falsehood a world in which it were possible to say yes i am holding a jew the truth and you me the jew and the ss guy all sit down to crack open a bottle of whiskey is better than the grim alternatives you present obviously this is not possible and the best alternative seems to be to lie that s because other values are involved such as life now that is just my opinion don t confuse the claim objective morality exists with the claim i have a lock on morals i think that at this point it would actually be quite easy to confuse objective morality with relative morality jon actually jon that is quite true christian people have caused objective morality to look very relative after all that was the point of the original question in this thread i e can we toss out christianity because it is so obviously inconsistent with its own principles if you will bear with me i will attempt to explain this apparent inconsistency from at least one christian s viewpoint if god exists and is the creator of mankind as the bible claims then he has a pretty well defined concept of what makes people tick physically emotionally etc god has an objective morality for us that is to say he has no trouble understanding what is good for or detrimental to the creature he created galatians for we mankind are his workmanship created in christ jesus for good works a morality which god prepared beforehand a well defined design that we might walk in them however contrary to what many people assume including the pharasees of the bible god s morality cannot be completely codified in a list of rules and regulations to some extent every activity of a person s life creates a new situation to which morality must be applied there never could be enough volumes to codify god s objective morality for us throughout history mankind has tried to reduce morality to a list of rules objectivity if you please in the old testament we have both principles and specific rules by the time of jesus most of the principles were obscured by the emphasis men had placed on the rules volumes of additional rules had been made to try to codify the application of the principles we mankind weren t comfortable with the subjectivity of principles for reference see matthew where jesus explains the difference between the law and the principles of the law for example in verses you have heard that the ancients were told you shall not commit murder and whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court but i say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to the court the objective morality of god gets blurred by our inept interpretation of it we christians have made our biggest errors when we have allowed any one person or group of people decide exactly what god intended for us if we christians would stay committed to seeking god s will instead of trying to prove we already had it all figured out we might do a better job of allowing others to find god s objective morality for themselves if jesus is who he said he was is and that s the fundamental question then he is objective morality john nunnally
talk.religion.misc	federal hearing fact or rumor madalyn murray o hare an atheist who eliminated the use of the bible reading and prayer in public schools years ago is now going to appear before the fcc with a petition to stop the reading of the gospel on the airways of america and she is also campaigning to remove christmas programs songs etc from the public schools if it is true then mail to federal communications commission h street washington dc expressing your opposition to her request reference petition number
talk.religion.misc	re catholic right pat robertson in kevxu cunyvm bitnet kevxu cunyvm bitnet writes rocco l martino a philadelphia business executive wrote separation of church and state is a false premise that must finally be cast aside and replaced by the true meaning of our constitution blechhhh gimme that ole time inquisition oh yes the organization s national ecclesisatical advisor is catholic politician cardinal john j o connor of new york it figures doesn t it michael l siemon we must know the truth and we must mls ulysses att com love the truth we know and we must or act according to the measure of our love mls panix com thomas merton
talk.religion.misc	re christian meta ethics in lsjc cinnmc saltillo cs utexas edu turpin cs utexas edu russell turpin writes in article c f gf panix com mls panix com michael siemon writes the issue then is this christian a says behavior such and such is sinful what is christian b supposed to do with such a statement one possibility always exists a may be able to persuade b that the behavior in question does exhibit a failure in loving god or neighbor michael modern liberal that he is reads a fairly benign meaning into this word he then constructs his religious beliefs around this understanding reading other scripture in the context of these commandments with love benignly understood i regard love as no more or less benign than any other christian does you are merely expressing approval of the consequences i find therein which says more about our politics and cultural trappings than about my or any religion love is a highly ambiguous word of which christians can write both the gentle words paul uses of it in corinthians in a passage that even the conservatives will quote at you and the words of t s eliot in his pentacost hymn love is the unfamiliar name that wove the intolerable shirt of flame this is in any case rather to the side of what i was attempting to raise in my note as will become more evident below as a non believer i find michael s christianity kinder and gentler blechhh i think you are misreading me rather seriously though given my principle that one cannot force one s own notion of sin on another and my unshakeable disestablishmentarianism russel turpin and others believers and unbelievers alike are under no threat of my legislating my own understanding of christian love if i take him at his word he cannot condemn the inquisitors because they were also following these commandments as they understood them if you misread i can do and have repeatedly done a complete bill of accusation against the inquisition by exhibiting in as thorough a form as anyone might want a demonstration of the harm it has done to human beings in the first place and to respect for let alone love of god in near succession please go back to my quoted words above the possibility that always exists is that i or to revert to proper time sequence my predecessors over the last several centuries could persuade christian b of my case that the inquisition does indeed constitute an egregious violation of the law of love i must also note that the majority of christians have been so persuaded by christian argumentation as well as by secular both christian and non christian prohibitions what mr turpin alludes to is a trickier point a i demonstrate the human pain and violation of love involved in the inquisition b the inquisitor responds that mother church must however painful this seems discipline her children for their own good in this case the salvation of their souls or if the tortured heretic will not recant than by bad example deterring others from the same loss of soul a i point out that this justification of a failure in love depends on a highly speculative construal of texts and of philosophical assertions that are quite undemonstrable b burns me at the stake my rhetoric has failed but the point i am making is sustained what is going on here has a lot to do with cultural baggage in this case the baggage includes a nearly universal and absolutely secular belief that an accused person must prove innocence and that testimony is most believable if taken under torture the elimination of inqisitorial practice in those places where it has been eliminated or at least greatly reduced has very little if anything to do with the discussion of sin in the exchange between a and b mr turpin is pointing out that if i am a versus the grand inquisitor s b then my persuasion is not very likely to work i know this and in what ever personal agony i consign the issue to god and my ghostly defense attorney so one possibility fails in this case as it will fail in may others at the other extreme the persuasion will succeed when it properly should not if it entails mistaken assumptions i share with the inquisitor and that is potentially an even more troubling case in that many of the victims of inquisition will have accepted that they were in fact sinful in such random cases as they may actually have been guilty of charges brought against them the point is that the persuasion breaks down when the parties do not share enough to agree on all the cultural baggage and given the main thrust of the inquisition against heresy it is bound to break down in precisely the worst cases the conservative i don t think that is the right word btw will take refuge in what i attribute to b above that he is justified in causing harm because he thinks that works to a greater good but this is a violent and extravagant refusal to follow the gospel as if one s theories about sin entitled one to cast aside jesus words on dealing with sinners cf matthew ff i am a radical christian only in that i take the gospel seriously or for that matter what does it mean to love one s fellow man and what is the right thing and how does one go about loving god well the whole point of making these the base commandments is that they aren t reducible to rules a set of rules is a moral code or a law code or an algorithm for acting such things can be very helpful to individuals or societies but not if they are used instead of a personal involvement in and responsibility for one s actions the great commandment is more than anything else a call to act as if you were god and accepting ultimate responsibility in your every action a demand that i like most would rather not hear but it keeps popping up nonetheless along with the reassurance that it is more important that i be open to trying this than succeeding at it conservatives may twist this act as if you were god to mean lay down rules for other people and be as nasty to them as possible if they don t keep your rules they are so insistent and obvious about this that they have convinced a lot of people who rightly reject the whole concept that such idiocy is how god acts that after all is the standard accusation against god by the atheists here and elsewhere that the conservatives have confused their manipulative hoop jumping notions of coercing other people with the nature of god is almost the entire content of standard american atheism and i quite agree with it on this point ethical systems are not differentiated by the nice sounding goo up front much of which sounds pretty much the same but by the specific acts procedures and arguments that they recommend and different bodies of christians have from the beginning urged different ethical systems or in some cases none as a result it is bizarre to identify any one of these systems however popular or infamous with christianity christianity does not have a torah it does not have a qu ran specifically christian scripture has very little if anything in the way of commandments so little that the christians who desperately want commandments go mining for them with almost no support and thus almost no obvious limitation for their efforts the one single thing in the gospels which jesus specifically gives as a commandment to us is love one another i will be expanding on this point in a reply to paul hudson that i hope to get to in a day or so it is quite true that some christians infer lots of commandments from the nt i ll point out what has to be going on in these inferences and why there is a huge amount of cultural baggage involved you are quite right that this is goo if one is looking for an ethical system but why should anyone be looking for an ethical system since our society is eager to hand us one or more no matter what we do it may be that we need a principle for the critique of ethical systems in which case i will profer the agapate allelou once again i am glad that a few christians such as michael find a benign meaning for the goo and then interpret the usually ugly specifics in a more constructive fashion on the other hand i do think that this tells us more about michael and christians like him that it tells us about christianity i think you are begging the question why don t i and the myriads of other christians like me tell you something about christianity nor is this very new in christianity you might want to look up the origins and fundamental doctrines of the quakers from the th century onwards and they are not at all the first to understand the gospel in a manner that is congenial to my case michael l siemon i say you are gods sons of the mls panix com most high all of you nevertheless or you shall die like men and fall mls ulysses att com like any prince psalm
talk.religion.misc	apr god s promise in psalm i will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go i will guide thee with mine eye psalm
talk.religion.misc	re judas crucifixion tyre etc david joslin joslin pogo isp pitt edu wrote af yfn ysu edu frank decenso jr writes based on the amount of e mail from fellow christians who have read the posts and told me i was wasting my time with butler and joslin i told them i wasn t doing it for db or dj but for other christians they have told me that db s and dj s arguments won t convince most bible studying christians so i have reevaluated my purpose here and it s also contributed to my decision so most bible studying christians won t be convinced by my arguments and this is supposed to be a good thing i presume where does this most bible studying christians think as frank does come from and what implied good are you doing for other christians at least some of what you are teaching has been demonstrated as wrong has it ever occured to you that you may be doing more harm than good to your fellow christians btw i used to think like frank does i went to a fundamentalist church for a while i didn t start to really think about what they were saying until i noticed a god s science phamphlet there i read it and noticed that the authors of it knew virtually nothing about science i asked church members some questions about theories from the phamphlet and got only deceptive answers i began to notice a very similar style of answers for theological questions as well the only conclusion i could reach was that these peoples beliefs about the bible were about as valid as their beliefs in their god s science phamphlet if there are still people out there who think that my purpose here is to attack the bible an accusation frank once made i would point out that i have also criticized people who have posted bible contradictions that turn out to be silly out of context or easily and legitimately reconciled i m not attacking the bible but intellectual dishonesty about the bible from either side if one of the primary purposes of christians is to seek out truth how can people condemn you for doing this dale skiba
talk.religion.misc	lds rick s reply rick anderson replied to my letter with ra in article c elp l c acsu buffalo edu ra psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu robert weiss says ra ra well jason it s heretical in a few ways the first point is that ra this equates lucifer and jesus as being the same type of being ra however lucifer is a created being thou wast perfect in thy ra ways from the day that thou wast created till iniquity was found in ra thee ezekiel while jesus is uncreated and the creator of ra all things in the beginning was the word and the word was with ra god and the word was god the same was in the beginning with god ra all things were made by him and without him was not any thing made ra that was made john and he is before all things and by ra him all things consist colossians ra ra your inference from the ezekiel and john passages that lucifer was ra created and that jesus was not depends on a particular interpetation of ra the word create one with which many christians may not agree ra granted the mormon belief that all of god s children including christ ra and lucifer are eternally existent intelligences which were organized ra into spirit children by god the term creation can apply equally well ra to both of those passages just briefly on something that you mentioned in passing you refer to differing interpretations of create and say that many christians may not agree so what that is really irrelevant we do not base our faith on how many people think one way or another do we the bottom line is truth regardless of popularity of opinions also i find it rather strange that in trying to persuade that created and eternally existent are equivalent you say granted the mormon belief you can t grant your conclusion and then expect the point to have been addressed in order to reply to the issue you have to address and answer the point that was raised and not just jump to the conclusion that you grant the bible states that lucifer was created the bible states that jesus is the creator of all the contradiction that we have is that the lds belief is that jesus and lucifer were the same ra your point that we all are brothers of jesus and lucifer is also ra heretical since we are not innately brothers and sisters of christ ra we are adopted for ye have not received the spirit of bondage ra again to fear but ye have received the spirit of adoption whereby ra we cry abba father romans and not the natural children ra of god it is only through faith that we even enter the family of ra god for ye are all the children of god by faith in christ jesus ra galatians and it is only through the manifestation of this ra faith in receiving jesus that we are become the sons of god but ra as many as received him to them gave he power to become the sons of ra god even to them that believe on his name which were born not ra of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man but ra of god john ra ra has it occured to you robert that being born of someone or being ra of that person or person s family may be a symbolic term in the new ra testament mormons believe that we are adopted into the house of ra israel through baptism and faith in christ although some have expressed ra belief that this does evince a physical change in our bodies the mormon belief is that all are children of god literally there is nothing symbolic about it this however contradicts what the bible says the bible teaches that not everyone is a child of god the field is the world the good seed are the children of the kingdom but the tares are the children of the wicked one matthew i speak that which i have seen with my father and ye do that which ye have seen with your father john ye do the deeds of your father then said they to him we be not born of fornication we have one father even god jesus said unto them if god were your father ye would love me for i proceeded forth and came from god neither came i of myself but he sent me why do ye not understand my speech even because ye cannot hear my word ye are of your father the devil and the lusts of your father ye will do he was a murderer from the beginning and abode not in the truth because there is no truth in him when he speaketh a lie he speaketh of his own for he is a liar and the father of it john and said o full of all subtilty and all mischief thou child of the devil thou enemy of all righteousness wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the lord acts wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world according to the prince of the power of the air the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience ephesians in this the children of god are manifest and the children of the devil whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of god neither he that loveth not his brother john one becomes a child of god but as many as received him to them gave he power to become the sons of god even to them that believe on his name john behold what manner of love the father hath bestowed upon us that we should be called the sons of god therefore the world knoweth us not because it knew him not beloved now are we the sons of god and it doth not yet appear what we shall be but we know that when he shall appear we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is john when he is born again through faith in jesus christ which were born not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man but of god john having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by jesus christ to himself according to the good pleasure of his will ephesians of his own will begat he us with the word of truth that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures james for as many as are led by the spirit of god they are the sons of god for ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear but ye have received the spirit of adoption whereby we cry abba father the spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit that we are the children of god romans beloved let us love one another for love is of god and every one that loveth is born of god and knoweth god john whosoever believeth that jesus is the christ is born of god and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him john for ye are all the children of god by faith in christ jesus galatians ra we are told that and this is life eternal that they might know ra thee the only true god and jesus christ whom thou hast sent ra john life eternal is to know the only true god yet the ra doctrines of the lds that i have mentioned portray a vastly ra different jesus a jesus that cannot be reconciled with the jesus of ra the bible they are so far removed from each other that to proclaim ra one as being true denies the other from being true according to the ra bible eternal life is dependent on knowing the only true god and ra not the construct of imagination ra ra ra robert with all due respect who died and left you chief arbiter of ra correct biblical interpretation i don t mean to be snotty about this ra but the fact is that the bible is so differently interpreted by different ra groups of biblical scholars what do you think of the jehovah s ra witnesses for example that to make reference to the jesus of the ra bible is simply ridiculous whose jesus of the bible do you mean this is really a red herring it doesn t address any issue raised but rather it seeks to obfuscate the fact that some groups try to read something into the bible doesn t change what the bible teaches for example the fact that the jehovah s witnesses deny the deity of christ does not alter what the bible teaches looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great god and our saviour jesus christ titus simon peter a servant and an apostle of jesus christ to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of god and our saviour jesus christ peter on the deity of christ we first look to the bible to see what it teaches to discount or not even address what the bible teaches because there are some groups that have differing views is self defeating to see what the bible teaches you have to look at the bible ra our lord s mortality was essential to his own salvation the ra promised messiah p he had to work out his own salvation by ra doing the will of the father in all things ibid p he had ra to be baptized to gain admission to the celestial kingdom mormon ra doctrine p ra ra welcome to the wonderful world of mormon paradoctrine robert the ra above books are by the late bruce r mcconkie a former general authority ra of the lds church those books were not published by the church nor do ra they constitute offical doctrine they consist of his opinions now ra does that mean that what he says is not true not at all i ll have to ra think about the idea of christ s personal salvation before i come to any ra conclusions myself the conclusions i come to may seem heretical to ra you but i m prepared to accept that i find this rather curious when i mentioned that the mormon belief is that jesus needed to be saved i put forward some quotes from the late apostle bruce mcconkie the curious part is that no one addressed the issue of jesus needing to be saved rick comes the closest with his i have my own conclusions to addressing the point most of the other replies have instead hop scotched to the issue of bruce mcconkie and whether his views were official doctrine i don t think that it matters if mcconkie s views were canon that is not the issue were mcconkie s writings indicative of mormon belief on this subject is the real issue the indication from rick is that they may certainly be robert weiss psyrobtw ubvms cc buffalo edu
talk.religion.misc	oto the ancient order of oriental templars e v after the glorious eve of taxation do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law the word of sin is restriction to all whom it may concern it is known only to a few that there exists an external visible organization of such men and women who having themselves found the path to real self knowledge and who having travelled the burning sands are willing to give the benefit of their experience and to act as spiritual guides to those who are willing to be guided while numberless societies associations orders groups etc have been founded during the last thirty years in all parts of the civilised world all following some line of occult study yet there is but one ancient organization of genuine mystics which shows the seeker after truth a royal road to discover the lost mysteries of antiquity and to the unveiling of the one hermetic truth this organization is known at the present time as the ancient order of oriental templars ordo templi orientis otherwise the hermetic brotherhood of light it is a modern school of magic and like the ancient schools of magic it derived its knowledge from the east this knowledge was never its possessors sic it was recorded in symbol parable and allegory requiring a key for its interpretation this key can be placed within the reach of all those who apply for membership to the oriental templars o t o the o t o is a body of initiates in whose hands are concentrated the secret knowledge of all oriental orders and of all existing masonic degrees the o t o although an academia masonica is not a masonic body so far as the craft degrees are concerned in the sense in which that expression is usually understood in england and therefore in no way conflicts with or infringes the just priveleges of the united lodge of england english master masons in good standing by arrangement on affiliation are admitted at reduced charges members of the ix degree become part proprietors of the estates and goods of the order for further information see the publications of the o t o and the synopsis of the degrees of the o t o constitution of the ancient order of oriental templars ordo templi orientis by frater superior merlin peregrinus x degree past grand master albert karl theodor reuss taken from equinox iii edited by frater superior rex summus sanctissimus united states caliph of ordo templi orientis invoke me under my stars love is the law love under will i am i frater i nigris dclxvi cccxxxiii
talk.religion.misc	re oto the ancient order of oriental templars in article cup portal com thyagi cup portal com thyagi morgoth nagasiva writes to all whom it may concern it is known only to a few that there exists an external visible organization of such men and women who having themselves found the path to real self knowledge and who having travelled the burning sands are willing to give the benefit of their experience and to act as spiritual guides to those who are willing to be guided while numberless societies associations orders groups etc have been founded during the last thirty years in all parts of the civilised world all following some line of occult study yet there is but one ancient organization of genuine mystics which shows the seeker after truth a royal road to discover the lost mysteries of antiquity and to the unveiling of the one hermetic truth this organization is known at the present time as the ancient order of oriental templars ordo templi orientis otherwise the hermetic brotherhood of light up to this point i was kinda hoping that this was a joke still it would make a great premise for a bad syndicated tv show these are the adventures of the oriental templars dedicated to truth justice and good karma dramatic music in the background no doubt i ve just horribly offended someone mike swaim whenever the soft drink machine needs to be swaim owlnet rice edu restocked rather than getting angry disclamer i lie meditate on the impermanence of all things and the emptiness of coke
talk.religion.misc	bhagavad gita text trai gunya visaya veda nistrai gunyo bhavarjuna nirdvandvo nitya sattva stho niryoga ksema atmavan trai gunya pertaining to the three modes of material nature visayah on the subject matter vedah vedic literatures nistrai gunyah transcendental to the three modes of material nature bhava be arjuna o arjuna nirdvandvah without duality nitya sattva sthah in a pure state of spiritual existence niryoga ksemah free from ideas of gain and protection atma van established in the self translation the vedas deal mainly with the subject of the three modes of material nature o arjuna become transcendental to these three modes be free from all dualities and from all anxieties for gain and safety and be established in the self purport all material activities involve actions and reactions in the three modes of material nature they are meant for fruitive results which cause bondage in the material world the vedas deal mostly with fruitive activities to gradually elevate the general public from the field of sense gratification to a position on the transcendental plane arjuna as a student and friend of lord krsna is advised to raise himself to the transcendental position of vedanta philosophy where in the beginning there is brahma jijnasa or questions on the supreme transcendence all the living entities who are in the material world are struggling very hard for existence for them the lord after creation of the material world gave the vedic wisdom advising how to live and get rid of the material entanglement when the activities for sense gratification namely the karma kanda chapter are finished then the chance for spiritual realization is offered in the form of the upanisads which are part of different vedas as the bhagavad gita is a part of the fifth veda namely the mahabharata the upanisads mark the beginning of transcendental life as long as the material body exists there are actions and reactions in the material modes one has to learn tolerance in the face of dualities such as happiness and distress or cold and warmth and by tolerating such dualities become free from anxieties regarding gain and loss this transcendental position is achieved in full krsna consciousness when one is fully dependent on the good will of krsna bhagavad gita as it is books of a c bhaktivedanta swami don t forget to chant hare krishna hare krishna krishna krishna hare hare hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare kalki s infoline bbs aiken south carolina usa system kalki lakes trenton sc us
talk.religion.misc	re oto the ancient order of oriental templars in a previous article thyagi cup portal com thyagi morgoth nagasiva says it is known only to a few that there exists an external visible organization of such men and women who having themselves found the path to real self knowledge and who having travelled the burning sands are willing to give the benefit of their experience and to act as spiritual guides to those who are willing to be guided while numberless societies associations orders groups etc have been founded during the last thirty years in all parts of the civilised world all following some line of occult study yet there is but one ancient organization of genuine mystics up to that point i thought you were talking about the rosicrucian order no offense intended tony
talk.religion.misc	re part and part re homosexuality long time no see andreas andreas siperian sirri siberian stint no itu love evolution tuusniemi siis imein suut
talk.religion.misc	re is it good that jesus died brian kendig bskendig netcom com wrote can you please point to something anything that proves to me that the universe cannot possibly be explained without accepting as a fact the existence of a god in precisely the way your holy book describes can you please convince me that your religion is more than a very cleverly constructed fable and that it does indeed have some bearing on my own personal day to day life would you consider the word of an eye witness peter to testify to the events surrounding jesus life pe we did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our lord jesus christ but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty pe for he received honor and glory from god the father when the voice came to him from the majestic glory saying this is my son whom i love with him i am well pleased pe we ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain pe and we have the word of the prophets made more certain and you will do well to pay attention to it as to a light shining in a dark place until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts this is a documented testimony perhaps further research on your part is warranted before making more statements there is considerably more to study in peters two books of testimony regarding the messiah it is well worth your time mr brian jim burrill
talk.religion.misc	re davidians and compassion in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes so we have this highly christian religious order that put fire on their house killing most of the people inside i would hardly consider the bd s to be christian they were acting in direct contradiction to scripture jesus second coming is something that everyone will know of jesus also predicted that there will be false messiahs who will use his name his prophecy has been fulfilled i m not that annoyed about the adults they knew supposedly what they were doing and it s their own actions what i mostly are angry about is the fact that the people inside including mothers let the children suffer and die during awful conditions i agree with you there if this is considered religious following to the end i m proud that i don t follow such fanatical and non compassionate religions me too i have already given my life to god if god tells me to lay down my life it will be to save another life you might want to die for whatever purpose but please spare the innocent young ones that has nothing to do with this all i have a hard time just now understanding that christianity knows about the word compassion christians do you think the actions today would produce a good picture of your religion do you judge all christians by the acts of those who would call themselves christian and yet are not the bd s contradicted scripture in their actions they were not christian simple as that perhaps you have read too much into what the media has portrayed ask any true believing christian and you will find that they will deny any association with the bd s even the th day adventists have denied any further ties with this cult which was what they were do you judge all muslims by the acts committed by saddam hussein a supposedly devout muslim i don t saddam is just a dictator using the religious beliefs of his people to further his own ends god be with you malcolm lee kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re a kind and loving god in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes in article apr ra royalroads ca mlee post royalroads ca malcolm lee wrote it is true what you stated above jesus saving grace is available to everyone not just jews in other words everyone can have salvation but not everyone will this option is now open to people other than just jews of course if the jews don t accept the deity of christ i would hardly expect them to accept anything that christ said but i don t feel any animosity towards them even though they persecuted jesus and his disciples and eventually crucified him i bear them no ill will if anything i feel pity for them jesus had to die to pay the price for our sins and so the jews were merely fulfilling prophesy jesus knew he had to die even before he began his ministry that demonstrates the great depth of his love for us jesus certainly demonstrated the great depth of his love for the children who died today at the davidian complex sorry but the events today made me even more negative concering organized religion i understand and sympathize with your pain what happened in waco was a very sad tradgedy don t take it out on us christians though the branch davidians were not an organized religion they were a cult led by a ego maniac cult leader the christian faith stands only on the shoulders of one man the lord of lords and king of kings jesus christ btw david koresh was not jesus christ as he claimed god be with you malcolm lee cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re davidians and compassion in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes in article apr edt neat cs toronto edu cbo cs toronto edu calvin bruce ostrum wrote in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes i have a hard time just now understanding that christianity knows about the word compassion christians do you think the actions today would produce a good picture of your religion clearly all people considering themselves christians are all alike and support one another in everything they do in particular it follows that they certainly will support all the actions of any other person calling himself a christian not i see there are christians and there are christians no wonder the christian world is in shambles you can t even agree who is a rightful one and a wrong one if one does not follow the teachings of christ he is not christian too easy please i would like to hear your comments about a supposed christian leader that makes sure that children are burnt to death would you say all muslims are like saddam hussein i wouldn t make such a blanket judgement why do you kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re a kind and loving god in article r ejoinnjfj owl csrv uidaho edu lanph crow csrv uidaho edu rob lanphier writes malcolm lee mlee post royalroads ca wrote what bothers me most is why people who have no religious affiliation continue to persecute jews why this hatred of jews the majority of people who persecute jews are not christians i can t speak for all christians and there are bound to be a few who are on the anti semitism bandwagon do you even have anecdotal evidence to back this up the most blatent persecution of the jews in history was of course done by the nazis before and during world war ii a predominately lutheran crowd sure many muslims in the middle east consider the israelites to be a thorn in their side but the most of the modern persecution of jews has been at the hands of christians at least as far as i m aware rob lanphier lanph uidaho edu do you consider neo nazis and white supremists to be christian i d hardly classify them as christian do they follow the teachings of christ love one another love your neighbour as yourself love your enemies is jesus christ their lord and saviour by the persecution of jews they are violating all the precepts of what christ died for they are in direct violation of the teachings of christ even jesus who was crucified by the jewish leaders of that time loved his enemies by asking the father for forgiveness of their sins i am a christian and i bear no animosity towards jews or any one else the enemy is satan not our fellow man god be with you malcolm lee
talk.religion.misc	re biblical backing of koresh s tape cites enclosed in article apr utarlg uta edu b zaw utarlg uta edu stephen writes for those who think david koresh didn t have a solid structure or sound biblical backing for his hour long tape broadcast i don t think anyone really cares about the solid structure of his sermon it s the deaths he s responsible for that concern most people i ve enclosed a partial list of the sources he cites or quotes he exactly used as a christian sermon it s pretty good if not inspired though i differ in part on some of his conclusions the argument he presents is well backed which is why it s taken me this long to work through still ongoing if you thought it was rambling that says far more about you than it does koresh there is a very definite relationship between the you ve made me curious what does this say about me first seal in revelation the entirety of psalms and the most of revelation which demonstrated one of his major points about how the writings in the prophets including david and in the psalms and in revelation are all telling the same story when you understand how they re related ie have the key the largely explain each other charles manson used revelation as well do we see a pattern here i wonder of koresh liked the beatles the sequence following is keyed to the koresh tape should you care to check it out you can almost see the note cards he used when doing the analysis long list of biblical references which impressed me tremendously but were deleted in the interests of common sense koresh was a nut okay just because he found ways for the bible to backup his rantings does not make him any less of a kook seems to me koresh is yet another messenger that got killed for the message he carried i ll type this very slowly so that you can understand he either set the fire himself or told his followers to do so don t make him out to be a martyr he did not get killed he killed himself in the mean time we sure learned a lot about evil and corruption are you surprised things have gotten that rotten the evil was inside the compound all that thou shalt not kill stuff oh yeah one last point for the believers philippian for the rest of us could you please post the text
talk.religion.misc	re freemasonry and the southern baptist convention in article qv l oj usenet ins cwru edu ch cleveland freenet edu tony alicea writes with the southern baptist convention convening this june to consider the charges that freemasonry is incompatible with christianity i thought the following quotes by mr james holly the anti masonic flag carrier would amuse you all the following passages are exact quotes from the southern baptist convention and freemasonry by james l holly m d president of mission and ministry to men inc n th st beaumont tx much drivel deleted jesus christ never commanded toleration as a motive for his disciples and toleration is the antithesis of the christian message page the central dynamic of the freemason drive for world unity through fraternity liberty and equality is toleration this is seen in the writings of the great writers of freemasonry page more drivel deleted i hope you all had a good laugh i know i did g tony a laugh tony this religeous bigot scares the shit out of me and that any one bothers to listen to him causes me to have grave doubts about the future of just about anything shades of the branch davidians jim jones and charlie manson uncle wolf member highland lodge f am grand lodge of california babtized a southern babtist and one who has beliefs beyond the teachings of either
talk.religion.misc	re rosicrucian order s in a previous article cdcolvin rahul net christopher d colvin says i guess the san jose mercury news is wrong then no it is old you said amorc is not was nothing personal ok good maybe you didn t know that it s over by now there is no more pending legal actions from no where period so yes there was a situation and it has been resolved by both parties as long as humans handle anything it is subjected to breaking btw gary l stewart has a p o box in tx calling his org arc ancient rosae crucis i guess he couldn t take the mo from amorc tony
talk.religion.misc	re clarification of personal position in article c muiw aqc mailer cc fsu edu dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu darius lecointe writes if it were a sin to violate sunday no one could ever be forgiven for that for jesus never kept sunday holy he only recognized one day of the seven as holy jesus also recognized other holy days like the passover acts says that no more should be layed on the gentiles than that which is necessary the sabbath is not in the list nor do any of the epistles instruct people to keep the th day while christians were living among people who did not keep the th day it looks like that would have been a problem instead we have scriptures telling us that all days can be esteemed alike romans and that no man should judge us in regard to what kind of food we eat jewish holy days we keep or in regard to the sabbath col the question is on what authority do we proclaim that the requirements of the fourth commandment are no longer relevant to modern christians i don t think that the sabbath or any other command of the law is totally irrelevant to modern christians but what about collosions where it says that we are not to be judged in regard to the keeping of the sabbath link hudson
talk.religion.misc	re davidians and compassion is there evidence independent of the fbi that indicates that the branch davidians set the fire what have the survivors said did the press see anything there is unfortunately precedent for the u s government saving children by roasting them alive there is precedent for religious self imolation as well i still wonder why the government couldn t just leave them alone
talk.religion.misc	re rosicrucian order s in a previous article cdcolvin rahul net christopher d colvin says i worked at amorc when i was in hs ok so you were a naive teen he hs lewis dates back to the s wrong and if you do your homework but he was born last century right now amorc is embroiled in some internal political turmoil no it isn t
talk.religion.misc	re freemasonry and the southern baptist convention in a previous article jluther cs umr edu john w luther says john it not good netiquette to quote a complete article nothing personal please i also appreciate your being amused by such determined ignorance without taking anything away from your mirth i want to say that these views sadden me this views sadden me too don t think that i don t care sorry if it seemed different it is serious stuff but i have a sick sense of humor though some say tolerance tony
talk.religion.misc	re is it good that jesus died jburrill boi hp com jim burrill writes brian kendig bskendig netcom com wrote can you please point to something anything that proves to me that the universe cannot possibly be explained without accepting as a fact the existence of a god in precisely the way your holy book describes can you please convince me that your religion is more than a very cleverly constructed fable and that it does indeed have some bearing on my own personal day to day life would you consider the word of an eye witness peter to testify to the events surrounding jesus life no there are two problems here peter died two millenia ago the original letters he wrote have long since decayed into dust if he were alive today and i could question him then this might lend credibility to your claims but probably not much because after all i ve heard people claim with all sincerity that they ve spoken with elvis recently but after his death peter s writings were transcribed by monks for centuries and i find it hard to believe that one of them somewhere didn t decide to change the wording of something to make it in his opinion a little easier to understand even if peter did witness the miracles of jesus two millenia ago that doesn t mean that your deity is what the bible says it is god might just be satan trying to convince everyone that he s a nice guy or even that your deity is still alive and active in the world today nice try but it just isn t enough to convince me especially since your wild claims about your deity seem to fly in the face of the way i ve observed the world to work please find something more compelling brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun bskendig netcom com de ceux que j ai vus j ose croire n etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent the meaning of life si je ne vaux pas mieux au moins je suis autre is that it ends rousseau
talk.religion.misc	re the list of biblical contradictions critus
talk.religion.misc	re merlin mithras and magick in article pegasus fp dialin uoregon edu pegasus aaa uoregon edu laurieewbrandt writes lets add to those percentages for the orphaic docterians brought to the group by paul saul who was a high ranking initiate on the development of orphaic mysteries see jane harrisons prolegomena to the study of greek religion cambridge u press and you can easly draw your own conclusions perhaps you can quote just a bit of her argument josh
talk.religion.misc	re oto the ancient order of oriental templars in a previous article shades sorinc cutler com darrin a hyrup says they thelema lodge don t have an internet address but they do have a cis address which can be reached via uucp internet it is so i guess that would be cis com or something like that compuserve com tony
talk.religion.misc	re is it good that jesus died brian lpl arizona edu brian ceccarelli writes they do not want to know it or be exposed to light because their own evil deeds will be uncovered and so by their own choice they will remain in darkness sort of like bugs under a rock however some people but not many will not like the darkness sometimes it gets too cold and too dark to be comfortable these people will crawl out from under the rock and although blinded at first will get accustomed to the light and enjoy its warm and after a while by virtue of the light they will see the depths of their own shortcomings and how to correct them and also they will see that there is much much more to this world than just the narrow little experiences under the rock they will discover that life under a rock was incredibly yukky and that life with the light of the world is great so great that they will want to tell all their friends about it and i maintain some people do not want to enter into the light and the knowledge that they alone are their own masters because they fear it they are too afraid of having to face the world on their own terms and so by their own choice they will remain in darkness sort of like bugs under a rock however some people but not many will not like the darkness sometimes it gets too cold and too dark to be comfortable these people will crawl out from under the rock and although blinded at first will get accustomed to the light and enjoy its warmth and after a while now that they can see things for what they really are they will also see the heights which they can reach and the places they can go and they will learn to choose their own paths through the world and they will learn from their mistakes and revel in their successes they will see that there is much much more to the world than just the narrow experiences under the rock they will discover that life under a rock was incredibly yucky and that life on their own terms is great so great that they will want to tell everyone else about it do you see my point i think you re the one under the rock and i m getting a great tan out here in the sunlight my life has improved immesurably since i abandoned theism come and join me it will be a difficult trip at first until you build up your muscles for the long hike but it s well worth it not all people hate light kent we all have an adversion to it to some extent but brian kendig who has been replying to this thread certainly likes darkness brian k enjoys stating false concepts and false pressumptions about the god of the bible without checking his own presumptions he compares my god with odin or zeus look you just practically equated odin and zeus they re as much different as your god is from them don t you see i m not going to accept anything that i can t witness with my own eyes or experience with my own senses especially not something as mega powerful as what you re trying to get me to accept surely if you believe in it this strongly you must have a good reason to don t you withough checking his own presumption he thinks hell is the equivalent of non existence when did i say that i say that i would rather cease existing instead of being subject to the whims of a deity but that if the deity decided to toss me into the fiery pits because of who i am then so be it do you enjoy darkness most people will honestly admit yes most people are fond of their sexual sins their hording of money their selfishness and not to mention their biblical ignorance nope most people are christian most people are fond of feeling that they are imperfect of believing that the world is an undesirable place of reciting magical mystical prayers to make the world nice and holy again of doing just as their priests tell them like good little sheep you enjoy darkness and you re proud of it you may know the bible well but have you read any of the koran or zen writings or hare krishna literature if you haven t then how can you say you have an open mind sin is fun let s admit it but a life of sin leads to trouble and death in this life and hell in the next nope you make decisions enjoy your successes and accept your failures then you die if you are content with the life you ve led as you reflect back on it in your final moments then you ve led a good life come out from under the rock please do for god so loved the world that he gave his one and only son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life i m sorry i don t feel that sacrificing jesus was something any god i d worship would do unless the sacrifice was only temporary in which case it s not really all that important forget the bible for a minute forget quoting verses forget about who said what about this or that show me picture just you and me and a wide open hilltop and convince me that you re right brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun bskendig netcom com de ceux que j ai vus j ose croire n etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent the meaning of life si je ne vaux pas mieux au moins je suis autre is that it ends rousseau
talk.religion.misc	re apr god s promise in john brian lpl arizona edu brian ceccarelli writes consider your mother merlyn you know your mother what would you think of me if i asserted that your mother is feet tall murdered your father and sexually abused you when you were a kid i would just go fetch my parents and show them to you and thereby prove quite definitively that my mother is not named merlyn she is not nine feet tall and my father is quite alive then i would assert quite simply that your deity does not exist and wait for a similar demonstration from you brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun bskendig netcom com de ceux que j ai vus j ose croire n etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent the meaning of life si je ne vaux pas mieux au moins je suis autre is that it ends rousseau
talk.religion.misc	re rosicrucian order s in article qvibv b usenet ins cwru edu ch cleveland freenet edu tony alicea writes in a previous article cdcolvin rahul net christopher d colvin says i worked at amorc when i was in hs ok so you were a naive teen he hs lewis dates back to the s wrong and if you do your homework but he was born last century right now amorc is embroiled in some internal political turmoil no it isn t i guess the san jose mercury news is wrong then and if so why is the da involved christopher d colvin cdcolvin rahul net
talk.religion.misc	re new newsgroup soc religion islam ahmadiyya mr esam abdel rahem writes i urge you all to vote no to the formation of the news group ahmadya islam if they want to have their own group the word islam shouldnot be attached to the name of such group we don t consider them as muslims dr tahir ijaz comments on esam abdel rahem s statement but the problem is we consider ourself to be muslims even though you don t luckily faith is determined by what one believes and is a personal matter you cannot declare the faith of someone else mr jawad ali then comments on tahir ijaz s statement you are not considering the consequences of your argument the converse would be that the problem is that muslims dont consider ahmadies to be muslims who one considers to be one s co believer is also a personal matter it would be just as wrong to tell the muslims who should be included in their self defination the argument by jawad ali is funny he writes the converse would be that the problem is that muslims dont consider ahmadies to be muslims which is a wrong statement in the light of dr ijaz s statement the above statement should be corrected is that some non ahmadi muslims don t consider ahmadi muslims as muslims so the problem does not get solved who is a muslims and who is not humans cannot decide humans may not declare others faiths its that simple i don t understand why the mere use of the word islam is becomming such a big issue i have seen numorous postings on the net on this subject and all they say no no you cannot use islam as the name of your newsgroup i haven t seen a single posting stating what right do they have in declaring the name of other s faiths who gives them this authority quran or hadith or something else i want to know this just a small reminder to all my muslim brothers did ever the holy prophet of islam muhammad pbuh say to anyone who called himself a muslim no you are not a muslim never i challenge all my muslim brothers to produce a single such evidence from the history of islam hence if the prophet muhammad could never do that to anyone how could the muslims mullahs or even governments of today do it to anyone do you consider yourself above the holy prophet muhammad pbuh sincerely nabeel note love for all views abeel ana hatred for none are e mail rana rintintin colorado edu mine
talk.religion.misc	apology to jim meritt was silence is concurance m mwunix mitre org james meritt writes so stop dodging the question what is hypocritical about my criticizing bad arguments given that i do this both when i agree with the conclusion and when i disagree with the conclusion you are the one who has claimed to possess the fruits of precognition telepathy and telempathy divine it yourself another dodge oh well i m no match for your amazing repertoire of red herrings and smoke screens you asked for an apology i m not going to apologize for pointing out that your straw man argument was a straw man argument nor for saying that your list of bible contradictions shows such low standards of scholarship that it should be an embarrassment to anti inerrantists just as josh mcdowell should be an embarrassment to the fundies nor for objecting various times to your taking quotes out of context nor for pointing out that they do it too is not an excuse nor for calling your red herrings and smoke screens what they are i m still not sure why you think i m a hypocrite it s true that i haven t responded to any of robert weiss articles which may be due in part to the fact that i almost never read his articles but i have responded to both you and frank decenso a fundie inerrantist both you and frank have taken quotes out of context and i ve objected to both of you doing so i ve criticized bad arguments both when they were yours and i agreed with the conclusion that the bible is not inerrant and when they were frank s and i disagreed with the conclusion i ve criticized both you and frank for evading questions and for trying to explain me away without addressing the objections i raise you by accusing me of being hypocritical and irrational frank by accusing me of being motivated by a desire to attack the bible i don t see that any of this is hypocritical nor do i apologize for it i do apologize however for having offended you in any other way happy now dj
talk.religion.misc	re davidians and compassion in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes so we have this highly christian religious order that put fire on their house killing most of the people inside we have no way to know that the cultists burned the house it could have been the batf and fbi we only have the government s word for it after all and people who started it by a no knock search with concussion grenades are hardly disinterested observers on the first day after christmas my truelove served to me leftover turkey on the second day after christmas my truelove served to me turkey casserole that she made from leftover turkey days deleted flaming turkey wings pizza hut commercial and m tlu a gic bait ken arromdee arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu
talk.religion.misc	re apr god s promise in john brian lpl arizona edu brian ceccarelli writes be warned it is not my job to convert you that is the job of the holy spirit and i frankly make a lousy one i am only here to testify your conversion is between you and god i am out of the loop if you decide to follow jesus of which i indeed would be estatic then all the glory be to god i ve asked your god several times with all my heart to come to me i really wish i could believe in him cos no matter how much confidence i build up on my own the universe is a big place and it would be so nice to know i have someone watching over me in it i ve gone into this with an open mind i ve layed my beliefs aside from time to time when i ve had doubt and i ve prayed to see what good that would do i don t see what more i can do to open myself to your god short of just deciding to believe for no good reason and if i decide to believe for no good reason why not believe in some other god zeus seems like a pretty cool candidate all i know is that in all my searching even though i ve set aside my pride and decided that i want to know the truth no matter how difficult it may be to accept i have never had any encounter with any deity christian or otherwise please tell me what more i can do while still remaining true to myself brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun bskendig netcom com de ceux que j ai vus j ose croire n etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent the meaning of life si je ne vaux pas mieux au moins je suis autre is that it ends rousseau
talk.religion.misc	re who s next mormons and jews cochrane james shapleigh writes it wouldn t be the first time a group has committed suicide to avoid the shame of capture and persecution this group killed itself to fulfill its interpretation of prophecy and to book a suite in paradise taking innocent kids along for the ride i hardly think the feds were motivated by persecution if they were all koresh would have had to do was surrender quietly to the authorities without firing a shot to get the american people behind him and put the feds in the hot seat but no god told him to play the tough guy there s great strength in yielding but few appreciate this peter m yadlowsky wake the sky is light academic computing center let us to the net again university of virginia companion keyboard pmy virginia edu after basho
talk.religion.misc	re who s next mormons and jews bill gripp writes anyway i ve often wondered what business followers of christ would have with weapons fyi these people were not followers of christ david koresh was their messiah ok but didn t jesus figure somewhere into their beliefs anyway my original question regarding christians and weaponry still stands peter m yadlowsky wake the sky is light academic computing center let us to the net again university of virginia companion keyboard pmy virginia edu after basho
talk.religion.misc	re who s next mormons and jews in article qvh n gf msuinfo cl msu edu friedenb maple egr msu edu gedaliah friedenberg writes in article qvfik rf usenet ins cwru edu cj cleveland freenet edu john w redelfs writes now that big brother has rubbed out one minority religion in waco who is next the mormons or jews give me a break if the mormons fortified utah and armed it to the teeth and were involved in illegal activity then they deserve whatever they get where were you brought up in the former ussr is innocent until proven guilty by a jury of your peers not dan rather dead in this country seems so is tax evasion the only charge brought against the bds punishable by death in this country now you are making a ludicrous suggestion not really you are a blind idiot we used to live in a country where everyone enjoyed the free exercise of their rights to worship and bear arms now we don t does that include the right to murder little children how about killing atf officers i do not know much about the gun laws in texas but koresh s folks claimed to have grenades grenade launchers and rocket launchers i am not sure that the nra feels that this falls under right to bear arms not sure yet you condem them to death for it if the batf had stayed home all would be alive now so who murdered who of course to jews and mormons this is just a broken record it has happened before please explain i do not remember jews or mormons as a group overtly breaking a judicious a k a non nazi law and being punished for it you have a short memory i ll bet all you cult haters are happy now right just hope you re not next followups to dev null alternative followups set to talk religion misc sleep well tonite heartless idiot sleep the sleep of the simple minded i shall weep for my country myself john w redelfs cj cleveland freenet edu all my opinions are tentative pending further data gedaliah friedenberg department of mechanical engineering department of metallurgy mechanics and materials science michigan state university i m short of patience tonite but rabid dogs deserve and get better treatment than the bds got jim jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov
talk.religion.misc	re freemasonry and the southern baptist convention in article qv l oj usenet ins cwru edu ch cleveland freenet edu tony alicea writes with the southern baptist convention convening this june to consider the charges that freemasonry is incompatible with christianity i thought the following quotes by mr james holly the anti masonic flag carrier would amuse you all the following passages are exact quotes from the southern baptist convention and freemasonry by james l holly m d president of mission and ministry to men inc n th st beaumont tx the inside cover of the book states mission ministry to men inc hereby grants permission for the reproduction of part or all of this booklet with two provisions one the material is not changed and two the source is identified i have followed these provisions freemasonry is one of the allies of the devil page iv the issue here is not moderate or conservative the issue is god and the devil page vi it is worthwhile to remember that the formulators of public school education in america were freemasons page jesus christ never commanded toleration as a motive for his disciples and toleration is the antithesis of the christian message page the central dynamic of the freemason drive for world unity through fraternity liberty and equality is toleration this is seen in the writings of the great writers of freemasonry page he jesus christ established the most sectarian of all possible faiths page for narrowness and sectarianism there is no equal to the lord jesus christ page what seems so right in the interest of toleration and its cousins liberty equality and fraternity is actually one of the subtlest lies of the father of lies page the southern baptist convention has many churches which were founded in the lodge and which have corner stones dedicated by the lodge each of these churches should hold public ceremonies of repentance and of praying the blood and the name of the lord jesus christ over the church and renouncing the oaths taken at the dedication of the church and or building page i hope you all had a good laugh i know i did g tony i appreciate the narrow mindedness of the view expressed in the text you quoted i also appreciate your being amused by such determined ignorance without taking anything away from your mirth i want to say that these views sadden me i can only hope that that sort of narrow mindedness will die with the generations that have promoted it teach your children well wet blanket mode off pax john john w luther anybody who mistakes my jluther cs umr edu best for email opinions for umr s just compuserve com doesn t know umr
talk.religion.misc	re who s next mormons and jews ken arromdee writes did they not know that these men were federal officers do you know what a no knock search is yes but tell me how you think your question answers my question if the bds didn t know immediately that they were dealing with feds uniform apparel insignia they must have figured it out in pretty short order why did they keep fighting they seemed awfully ready for having been attacked without warning peter m yadlowsky wake the sky is light academic computing center let us to the net again university of virginia companion keyboard pmy virginia edu after basho
talk.religion.misc	re merlin mithras and magick in article joshua apr bailey cpac washington edu joshua cpac washington edu joshua geller wrote in article pegasus fp dialin uoregon edu pegasus aaa uoregon edu laurieewbrandt writes lewb lets add to those percentages for the orphaic docterians brought lewb to the group by paul saul who was a high ranking initiate on the lewb development of orphaic mysteries see jane harrisons prolegomena to the lewb study of greek religion cambridge u press and you can easly draw lewb your own conclusions josh perhaps you can quote just a bit of her argument love to but i must do it a bit later my copy of harrison in packed but the last chapter as best as i can rember deals with orphic mysteries and their views of women though she does not come out and say it it is strongly implyed that the christian view was drawn heavly from the orphic and other major cults of the time pegasus
talk.religion.misc	identity crisis god satan ii samuel and again the anger of the lord was kindled against israel and he moved david against them to say go number isreal and judah i chronicles and satan stood up against isreal and provoked david to number israel
talk.religion.misc	re question for those with popular morality in article david terminus ericsson se david bold writes in article freenet carleton ca ad freenet carleton ca james owens writes you seem to be saying that god being unknowable his morality is unknowable yep that s pretty much it as i understand it the sadducees believed that the torah was all that was required whereas the pharisees the ancestors of modern judaism believed that the torah was available for interpretation to lead to an understanding of the required morality in all its nuances talmud the essence of all of this is that biblical morality is an interface between man and yhwh for a jew or christian and does not necessarily indicate anything about yhwh outside of that relationship although one can speculate the point i m trying to make is that we only really have the bible to interpret and that interpretation is by humanity i guess this is where faith or relevation comes in with all its inherent subjectiveness god being unknowable i can t comment on his motives but it would be distressing if he allowed us to misunderstand him through no fault of our own for sanity s sake we must assume if we believe in him at all that his message comes through somehow the question is whether it comes through immediately to every individual or is contained in a complex canon that must be interpreted by experts in consultation with one another or is transmitted directly through appointed representatives who are free to interpret extend and modify the canon if god s message is indeed mediated the further problem arises as to whether the individual under stands the mediated message fully and clearly since the responsibility for understanding lies ultimately with the individual we must assume that god in his benevolence guides each individual to the appropriate source for that individual whereof the person may or may not drink metaphysically if there are multiple moral codes then there is no absolute moral code and i think this is theologically questionable no there may be an absolute moral code there are undoubtably multiple moral codes the multiple moral codes may be founded in the absolute moral code as an example a parent may tell a child never to swear and the child may assume that the parent never swears simply because the parent has told the child that it is wrong now the parent may swear like a trooper in the pub or bar where there are no children the wrongness here is if the child disobeys the parent the parent may feel that it is inappropriate to swear in front of children but may be quite happy to swear in front of animals the analogy does not quite hold water because the child knows that he is of the same type as the parent and may be a parent later in life but you get the gist of it incidentally the young child considers the directive as absolute until he gets older see piaget and learns a morality of his own your example is complicated in our age by the thin line between morality and politeness you might have said burp for burping and swearing carry about the same stigma today if you are talking about taking the lord s name in vain as a serious transgression then this example is more a case of hypocrisy than of varying moral codes if there is an absolute moral code propositions or laws in that code apply absolutely and universally by definition conceivably some moral codes could be subsets of the universal code as you say at the outset so for example god s code could include thou shalt not create beings without a hospitable planet to live on but this law would be inapplicable to us nevertheless we would be entitled to suppose that all laws applicable to us are also applicable to god but when you begin to ask what laws might appear in god s moral code you have a sense of the absurdity of the question does god make laws for himself to follow perhaps god is not the sort of being to which the category morality can be sensibly applied james owens ad freenet carleton ca ottawa ontario canada
talk.religion.misc	cults who keeps them going mr clinton said today that the horrible tragedy of the waco fiasco should remind those who join cults of the dangers of doing so now i began scratching my head thinking a bad sign don t the mainstream religions in this case christianity or the th day adventist in particular just keep these guys going isn t mr clinton condemning his own religion after all isn t it a cult too bad thoughts these
talk.religion.misc	re freemasonry and the southern baptist convention in article qv l oj usenet ins cwru edu ch cleveland freenet edu tony alicea writes with the southern baptist convention convening this june to consider the charges that freemasonry is incompatible with christianity i thought the following quotes by mr james holly the anti masonic flag carrier would amuse you all munch i hope you all had a good laugh i know i did g it would be funny if it wasn t so damn nasty and as non xian as i am it s hard to believe that someone is pushing black is white and freedom is slavery so blatantly mark
talk.religion.misc	re o t o clarification do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law the word of sin is restriction kent sandvik newton apple com writes sorry the san jose based rosicrucian order is called a m o r c i don t remember for the time being what the a m stand for but o r c is ordo rosae crucis in other words latin for order of the rose cross response yes very true the entire title is the ancient and mystical order rosae crucis they are located at naglee avenue san jose california usa they are considered different and largely unrelated by a number of sources i ve seen documentation which links them through the figure of h spencer lewis lewis was apparently involved with reuss who was the o h o of ordo templi orientis for many years apparently it is also true that lewis had a charter to form an o t o body and then created a m o r c as a subsidiary an interesting question kent otherwise their headquarters in san jose has a pretty decent metaphysical bookstore if any of you are interested in such books and my son loves to run around in their egyptian museum response indeed and diagonally across the street is another metaphysical book store called ram metaphysical wherein i ve purchased some wonderful works by crowley and others ram metaphysical books park ave san jose ca invoke me under my stars love is the law love under will i am i frater i nigris dclxvi cccxxxiii
talk.religion.misc	re cults who keeps them going muttiah thistle ecn purdue edu ranjan s muttiah writes mr clinton said today that the horrible tragedy of the waco fiasco should remind those who join cults of the dangers of doing so now i began scratching my head thinking a bad sign don t the mainstream religions in this case christianity or the th day adventist in particular just keep these guys going isn t mr clinton condemning his own religion after all isn t it a cult too a good point what helps to keep such things going is the public attitude that one should have faith that some authority from on high should not be subjected to mere reason couple this with a variety of personality quirks mojor and minor mental illnesses and ego of would be leaders and you get all the variety of cults and religions that people subscribe to
talk.religion.misc	re lds are the mormons the true church in article c rr m lj acsu buffalo edu psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu robert weiss writes from psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu robert weiss subject lds are the mormons the true church date apr gmt is the mormon church christ s true church lots of stuff about intellectual errors deleted this is cute but i see no statement telling me why your church is the true church i do presume that you know or at least believe that yours is true attempting to ream my faith without replacing it with something better is a real good way to loose a person completely from christ this is the greatest reason i see that these attacks are not motivated by love they only seek to destroy there is no building or replacing of belief this is not something christ did he guided and instructed he didn t seek to destroy the faith he found he redirected it this is what i see when people say they love insert favorite group here and i have to laugh at the irony please excuse the scarcasm but it was nice to say it oh btw robert don t take this personally your post was merely convinent
talk.religion.misc	see was re apology to jim meritt was silence is concurance in article blue cis pitt edu joslin pogo isp pitt edu david joslin writes m mwunix mitre org james meritt writes so stop dodging the question what is hypocritical about my criticizing bad arguments given that i do this both when i agree with the conclusion and when i disagree with the conclusion you are the one who has claimed to possess the fruits of precognition telepathy and telempathy divine it yourself another dodge oh well i m no match for your amazing repertoire of red herrings and smoke screens you asked for an apology i m not going to apologize for pointing out that your straw man argument was a straw man argument nor for saying that your list of bible contradictions shows such low standards of scholarship that it should be an embarrassment to anti inerrantists just as josh mcdowell should be an embarrassment to the fundies nor for objecting various times to your taking quotes out of context nor for pointing out that they do it too is not an excuse nor for calling your red herrings and smoke screens what they are how about the following inaccurate unsubstantiated accusations in blue cis pitt edu jim has been threatening but no threat produced once he realized that display of telepathy threatening to quote me in spite of no threat produced nor forecast ever happening precognition responding jim s threat to quote me in spite of claimed threat never being given jim preparing to in spite of it never happening telepathy or precognition jim again still mystified unsubstantiated and untrue more telepathy or maybe telempathy jim still scandalized unsubstantiated again seems to be a habit having more trouble with reality it appears why get bothered with the facts when you appear to have the products of paranatural divination methods yawn
talk.religion.misc	re apr god s promise in john i had said merlyn you missed the point too christianity is a relationship i have a relationship with my god i know him consider your mother merlyn you know your mother what would you think of me if i asserted that your mother is feet tall murdered your father and sexually abused you when you were a kid would you who knows your mother well think was a blind arrogant idiot to proclaim such things merlyn leroy says this analogy is not good for example there are plenty of people who know god as well as you do but don t agree on things like how many children he she has whether he she approves of polygamy whether mohammed was one of his her prophets now if you and all these other people who absolutely know what god is like can t agree on basic attributes like these at least one of you who knows what this god thing is like must be wrong therefore subjective certainty is worthless regarding knowledge of this god on the other hand i don t know any large groups of people who claim absolute knowledge of my mother and who disagree about her basic attributes this is the difference between real people and imaginary friends meryln therefore by your logic since your people disagree about the characteristics of your mother you mother must be imaginary
talk.religion.misc	re who s next mormons and jews in article c sl z b murdoch acc virginia edu pmy vivaldi acc virginia edu pete yadlowsky writes anyway i ve often wondered what business followers of christ would have with weapons peter m yadlowsky wake the sky is light academic computing center let us to the net again university of virginia companion keyboard pmy virginia edu after basho imo a christian has no need of weapons i know it is very contrary to the american nra ethos of the right to bear arms but christians should rely on the strength of god to protect them note that i say should we are inherently insecure but i feel that that is not proper justification to be armed to the teeth a christian should not have to rely on physical weapons to defend himself a christian should rely on his faith and intelligence for instance i have the faith that god will protect me but god also gave me the intelligence to know not to go walking down that dark alley at night to jump off a cliff and say that god will save me would be putting god to the test and who are we to test god god be with you malcolm lee
talk.religion.misc	re biblical backing of koresh s tape cites enclosed seems to me koresh is yet another messenger that got killed for the message he carried which says nothing about the character of the messenger i reckon we ll have to find out the rest the hard way koresh was killed because he wanted lots of illegal guns
talk.religion.misc	re biblical backing of koresh s tape cites enclosed in article apr utarlg uta edu b zaw utarlg uta edu stephen writes seems to me koresh is yet another messenger that got killed for the message he carried which says nothing about the seems to be barring evidence to the contrary that koresh was simply another deranged fanatic who thought it neccessary to take a whole bunch of folks with him children and all to satisfy his delusional mania jim jones circa in the mean time we sure learned a lot about evil and corruption are you surprised things have gotten that rotten nope fruitcakes like koresh have been demonstrating such evil corruption for centuries the old frog s almanac a salute to that old frog hisse f ryugen fisher v x sco xenix gt ladysmith british columbia canada serving central vancouver island with public access usenet and internet mail home to the holocaust almanac
talk.religion.misc	re is it good that jesus died in article bskendigc rbvn aai netcom com bskendig netcom com brian kendig writes and i maintain some people do not want to enter into the light and the knowledge that they alone are their own masters because they fear it they are too afraid of having to face the world on their own terms and so by their own choice they will remain in darkness sort of like bugs under a rock however some people but not many will not like the darkness sometimes it gets too cold and too dark to be comfortable these people will crawl out from under the rock and although blinded at first will get accustomed to the light and enjoy its warmth and after a while now that they can see things for what they really are they will also see the heights which they can reach and the places they can go and they will learn to choose their own paths through the world and they will learn from their mistakes and revel in their successes are you your own master do you have any habits that you cannot break for one you seem unable to master your lack of desire to understand even the slightest concept of the bible seems that ignorance has you mastered how about sexual sins gotta any of those secret desires in your head that you harbor but can get control of do you dehumanize women when they walk past you do you degrade them to a sex object in your head are you the master of that kind of thinking do you insult people unknowingly then regret it later yet do it again the next time opportunity presents itself are you truly the master of yourself i have admitted that i am not the master of my thought life at all times that i sometimes say things i do want to say and then repeat my mistake unwantingly i have admitted to myself that i cannot control every aspect of my being there are times i know i shouldn t say something but then say it anyway there are times i simply forget a lesson i in fact am not my own master i need help jesus promised me this help and i took him up on his offer i have willfully let jesus be my master because jesus knows what is better for me than i myself do and why not does not the creator know his creation better than the creation does toyota know what s better for the corolla than the corolla do you see my point i think you re the one under the rock and i m getting a great tan out here in the sunlight my life has improved immesurably since i abandoned theism come and join me it will be a difficult trip at first until you build up your muscles for the long hike but it s well worth it then i guess ignorance is bliss for you because brian you enjoy not having a clue about the bible don t you see i m not going to accept anything that i can t witness with my own eyes or experience with my own senses especially not something as mega powerful as what you re trying to get me to accept surely if you believe in it this strongly you must have a good reason to don t you can you witness motherly love with your senses how does caring and concern for you register with your senses if nothing registers to you other than what you can see taste smell hear and touch then you better become a vulcan and fast you better get rid of your emotions and i do have a good reason to believe what i do when did i say that i say that i would rather cease existing instead of being subject to the whims of a deity but that if the deity decided to toss me into the fiery pits because of who i am then so be it the topic was about my god and your lack of knowledge about what my god says my god says that you will not cease existing you have life forever you can choose to either live it in hell in eternal torment where there is no communication whatsoever or can choose to live it in paradise with god that is what my god says and that was the issue your made up theism is what it is made up it s wishful thinking nope most people are christian most people are fond of feeling that they are imperfect of believing that the world is an undesirable place of reciting magical mystical prayers to make the world nice and holy again of doing just as their priests tell them like good little sheep you enjoy darkness and you re proud of it is this the religion of kendigianism most people are not christian most people including christians are not fond of feeling that they are imperfect is the world an undesireable place a doctrine of kendigianism it has nothing to do with my god does kendigism have magical mystical prayers as a part of its worship mine doesn t does kendigianism believe that the world will be holy again mine doesn t does kendigianism also dictate that one must obey what the priest tells them like good little sheep mine doesn t is this a bunch of lies you tell yourself so that you can justify being ignorant of the bible brian following christ has nothing to do with the doctrines of kendigianism you would find any of your doctrines in the bible i don t follow kendigianism i follow christ also to try to again show you your ignorance of christ and the bible in regards to priests have you not read about the sole melchizedek priest in hebrews and have you not read what the purpose is of the old testament levitical priesthood and why there should not be priests today yes guess what the catholics messed up i do not follow catholicism or any ism i follow christ nope you make decisions enjoy your successes and accept your failures then you die if you are content with the life you ve led as you reflect back on it in your final moments then you ve led a good life why would you want to live a good life to you you die and that s it don t contradict yourself you have no reason to live a good life it doesn t do you any good in the end your life doesn t do anybody else any good either because everyone dies anyway so you have no reason to lead a good life leading a good life is meaningless why do you do such a meaningless thing i m sorry i don t feel that sacrificing jesus was something any god i d worship would do unless the sacrifice was only temporary in which case it s not really all that important has the resurrection sunk in jesus is alive jesus is not dead jesus was sacrified to fufill the old testament sacrificial system in its every detail jesus s death was like a seed he needed to fall to the ground so that many new lives would take root did you miss the entire john passage as well forget the bible for a minute forget quoting verses forget about who said what about this or that show me picture just you and me and a wide open hilltop and convince me that you re right forget that i am a person forget that i know how to type forget that i know how to put a sentence together forget that i know how to send e mail forget my existence proove to me that i exist be honest
talk.religion.misc	re biblical backing of koresh s tape cites enclosed in article apr utarlg uta edu b zaw utarlg uta edu stephen writes for those who think david koresh didn t have a solid structure or sound biblical backing for his hour long tape broadcast i ve enclosed a partial list of the sources he cites or quotes he exactly used as a christian sermon it s pretty good if not inspired david koresh was born in bethlehem ehh
talk.religion.misc	keep firm the foundations job he stretcheth out the north over the empty place and hangeth the earth upon nothing job where wast thou when i laid the foundations of the earth declare if thou hast understanding
talk.religion.misc	re disillusioned protestant finds christ john w redelfs cj cleveland freenet edu wrote i am a mormon i believe in christ that he is alive he raised himself text deleted i learned that the concept of the holy trinity was never taught by jesus christ that it was agreed to by a council of clergymen long after christ was ascended men who had no authority to speak for him if jesus never taught the concept of the trinity how do you deal with the following mat then jesus came to them and said all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me mat therefore go and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit mat and teaching them to obey everything i have commanded you and surely i am with you always to the very end of the age also jesus speaking act for john baptized with water but in a few days you will be baptized with the holy spirit i believe that you may have overlooked some key verses that are crucial to the christian faith jim burrill jburrill boi hp com
talk.religion.misc	silence is concurance is it not the case that in the eyes of the law when someone is aware of something and has the capability of taking action and does not that individual may be held responsible for that action example the driver of a getaway car may be held as an accomplice to murder the i didn t know defense spawned the ignorance of the law is no excuse when an individual is held as a material witness to a crime is there a criminal charge against the individual if not on what grounds is the person imprisoned james w meritt m mwunix mitre org or jmeritt mitre org the opinions above are mine if anyone else wants to share them fine they may say so if they wish the facts belong to noone and simply are
talk.religion.misc	question about islamic view a question regarding the islamic view towards homosexuality came up in a discussion group that i participate in and i d like to ask the question here what is the islamic view towards homosexuality jim burrill jburrill boi hp com
talk.religion.misc	re disillusioned protestant finds christ in a previous article tom tredysvr tredydev unisys com tom albrecht says in article qb j d usenet ins cwru edu cj cleveland freenet edu john w redelfs writes i learned that god loves his children who have never heard of him and has a plan for redeeming them too even those who have died without a knowledge of christ i learned that a man cannot frustrate justice by repenting on his death bed because repentance is more than a feeling of remorse it requires faith in christ proven by following him by keeping his commandments such cannot be accomplished on ones deathbed so jesus must have lied to the thief on the cross paradise and salvation are not the same thing salvation is better refer to john tom albrecht john w redelfs cj cleveland freenet edu all my opinions are tentative pending further data
talk.religion.misc	re lds rick s reply in article c kdzk acsu buffalo edu psyrobtw ubvmsd cc buffalo edu robert weiss says just briefly on something that you mentioned in passing you refer to differing interpretations of create and say that many christians may not agree so what that is really irrelevant we do not base our faith on how many people think one way or another do we the bottom line is truth regardless of popularity of opinions i m sorry i thought we were discussing heresy i assumed that heresy meant a departure from orthodoxy in which case generally accepted belief is indeed an important issue in this case the definition of the word create is of great importance since creation is the issue being discussed also i find it rather strange that in trying to persuade that created and eternally existent are equivalent you say granted the mormon belief you can t grant your conclusion and then expect the point to have been addressed in order to reply to the issue you have to address and answer the point that was raised and not just jump to the conclusion that you grant i should have said given the mormon belief if you disagree with the mormon belief that creation is more a function of organization of eternally existent substance than one of ex nihilo creation then that is the important point the bible states that lucifer was created the bible states that jesus is the creator of all the contradiction that we have is that the lds belief is that jesus and lucifer were the same correction you interpret the bible to mean something very specific by such terms the mormon belief is that all are children of god literally there is nothing symbolic about it this however contradicts what the bible says the bible teaches that not everyone is a child of god it always cracks me up when anti mormons presume to tell mormons what they believe mormons do in fact believe that all people including christ and lucifer are children of god in the sense that we were all created or organized or whatever by him we also believe that being offspring of god has a symbolic sense when applied to being spiritually born again of him thus the same word can be used to convey different meanings this is how language works robert and it s why making someone an offender for a word is dangerous this is really a red herring it doesn t address any issue raised but rather it seeks to obfuscate the fact that some groups try to read something into the bible doesn t change what the bible teaches for we first look to the bible to see what it teaches to discount or not even address what the bible teaches because there are some groups that have differing views is self defeating to see what the bible teaches you have to look at the bible on the contrary robert it is not a red herring at all to show that those who rely wholly on the bible cannot seem to agree on what it says you say that one must simply look at the bible to see what it teaches but centuries of people doing just that have sho wn that no one is really sure what it says are we to believe that you are the only one who really understands the scriptures i find this rather curious when i mentioned that the mormon belief is that jesus needed to be saved i put forward some quotes from the late apostle bruce mcconkie the curious part is that no one addressed the issue of jesus needing to be saved rick comes the closest with his i have my own conclusions to addressing the point let me clarify this one more time you did not refer to the mormon belief that jesus needed to be saved but rather to mcconkie s belief in same we keep trying to point out to you that bruce mcconkie is not the source of mormon doctrine and you keep ignoring it see below most of the other replies have instead hop scotched to the issue of bruce mcconkie and whether his views were official doctrine i don t think that it matters if mcconkie s views were canon that is not the issue were mcconkie s writings indicative of mormon belief on this subject is the real issue the indication from rick is that they may certainly be on the contrary robert if you are quoting mcconkie s words as mormon canon then the question of whether they are canon or not is of great importance the fact is that they are not whether or not they indicate general mormon belief would only be ascertainable by interviewing a large number of mormons robert weiss psyrobtw ubvms cc buffalo edu rick anderson librba byuvm bitnet
talk.religion.misc	re part and part re homosexuality in article m njxcg vec juts ccc amdahl com rich bellacera amail amdahl com writes perhaps you don t get it and maybe you never will many didn t get it in the middle ages and the proclaimed god s will be done as they massacred thousands in witch hunts and inquisitions there were many injustices in the middle ages and this is truely sad i would hate to see a day when churches put people to death or torchured them for practicing homosexuality or any other crime the church is not called to take over the governments of the world it may be that homosexuals treated cruelly today but that does not mean that we should teach christians to practice homosexual immorality do you think that we should also teach christians to practice divination and channelling because the witches in the middle ages were persecuted the major flaw in all this posturing is that in the end the final effect of posts like that of yours and mr hudson is that you have a conditional love for gays condition change and we ll love you this is sure strange coming from a group who claim that god has an unconditional love one that calls people just as they are and you accuse me of judging when did you look into my heart and see if i have love i have been writing that we should not teach christians to practice homosexual immorality and you pretend to have divine knowledge to look into my heart i can t say that i love homosexuals as i should i can t say that i love my neighbor as i should either i don t know very many homosexuals as it is but jesus loves homosexuals just as he loves everyone else if his love were conditional i not know him at all yes we should show love to homosexuals but it is not love to encourage brothers in the church to stumble and continue in their sin that is a very damaging and dangerous thing the results of the passing amendment in colorado has created an organization who s posters are appearing all over colorado called s t r a i g h t i forget the whole definition off hand but the last part was against immoral gross homosexual trash and their motto is working for a fag free america with an implicit advocation for violence this is sick and it seems to be what you and mr hudson and others are embracing that is slander i could just as easily say that nambla has been able to implement legislation to make child molesting easier because of the tearing down of societies morality due to people accepting homosexuality as normal and that this is what you are embracing i do believe that homosexual sex is immoral that does not mean i endorse using violence against them there is a problem of hatred in the church but there is also the problem of what has been called unsanctified mercy many in the conservative churches have seen the moral breakdown in this country and the storm on the horizon and have gotten militant in the flesh this is truely sad yet others in other churches have embraced immorality in society and have pointed to the carnality in the conservative churches to justify their actions why don t we just stick to the positive and find ways to bring people to jesus istead of taking bullwhips and driving them away certainly we should not use a bullwhip to drive people from jesus but we shouldn t water down the gospel to draw people in jesus didn t go out of his way to show only what might be considered positive aspects to draw people in he told one man to sell all he had he told another not to say good bye to his family his words were hard at times we should present people with the cost of the tower before we allow them to begin construction many people have already been innoculated to the gospel link hudson whatever rich
talk.religion.misc	re federal hearing on fri apr gmt dmcgee uluhe soest hawaii edu don mcgee said dm fact or rumor madalyn murray o hare an atheist who eliminated the dm use of the bible reading and prayer in public schools years ago is now dm going to appear before the fcc with a petition to stop the reading of the dm gospel on the airways of america and she is also campaigning to remove dm christmas programs songs etc from the public schools if it is true dm then mail to federal communications commission h street washington dc dm expressing your opposition to her request reference petition number dm false this story has been going around for years there s not a drop of truth note that i don t care for o hare o hair myself but this is one thing she s not guilty of ed mccreary o edm twisto compaq com if it were not for laughter there would be no tao
talk.religion.misc	re mark of the beast need info u uicvm uic edu wrote marian catholic high school outside of chicago south ashland avenue actually satanism is technically inverted catholicism andrew bulhak plonk n the sound of richard depew acb yoyo cc monash edu au hitting the ground after being monash uni clayton defenestrated by a posse of angry usenet victoria australia posters
talk.religion.misc	re silence is concurance for those missing the context of this thrilling discussion between jim and i jim wrote the following to me in e mail after i pointed out that he jim had taken a quote out of context in t r m robert weiss writes a promise from psalm gee since you wouldn t be at all hypocritical you must be really busy arguing against these out of context extracted translations he directed a similar accusation of hypocrisy again based on a lack of response to an article by robert weiss toward stephen i pointed out that i did in fact agree that both robert weiss and jim meritt took quotes out of context hence i find it difficult to understand why jim thinks i am a hypocrite needless to say i don t have time to reply to every article on t r m that takes a quote out of context i asked jim the following so according to you jim the only way to criticize one person for taking a quote out of context without being a hypocrite is to post a response to every person on t r m who takes a quote out of context jim replied by saying did i either ask or assert that but today we find four articles from jim one of which has the subject silence is concurrence m mwunix mitre org james meritt writes is it not the case that in the eyes of the law when someone is aware of something and has the capability of taking action and does not that individual may be held responsible for that action which is of course a complete red herring taking quotes out of context isn t a crime i don t have time to read every article on t r m and i m certainly under no obligation to reply to them all does silence is concurrence imply that jim thinks that because i didn t respond to weiss articles i must condone weiss taking quotes out of context jim doesn t want to give a direct answer to this question read what he has written and decide for yourself but back to the context of my conversation with jim jim s next gambit was to claim that he was using inductive logic when he concluded that i was being a hypocrite i challenged him to provide the details of that logic that led him to an incorrect conclusion today we find another obscure article posting it twice didn t help make it more clear jim titled inductive logic scenario a white goose waddles past the door a white goose waddles past the door a white goose waddles past the door repeat an uncountably large number of times a black goose waddles past the door an individual hits it with an axe given that the population of geese is uncountably large and the size of the confidence interval for the decision is undetermined under what conditions could a decision upon the behavior of the individual towards white geese be made if only black geese are observed to be axed is it not a valid question to be concerned with the different behavior between black and white geese more red herrings could jim mean that he has read an uncountably large number of my articles could jim mean that because i axed his articles but not weiss articles he wants to conclude inductively well i can t see where he is going with this but i can help him with his induction i ve written roughly articles since january the vast majority of them are discussions with frank decenso and other inerrantists where i take the position that they are making bad arguments some are discussions with jim meritt where i take the position that he is making bad arguments a straw man argument earlier and taking quotes out of context more recently think hard about this jim see the pattern think harder run it through your induction engine and see what pops out dj
talk.religion.misc	re spreading christianity re christian extremist kills doctor i addressed most of the key issues in this very long lines post by dean kaflowitz in two posts yesterday the first was made into the title post of a new thread is dean kaflowitz terminally irony impaired and the second more serious one appeared along the thread a chaney post and a challenge reissued and revised both only in talk abortion but i am posting its contents into talk religion misc as soon as i exit here this should be enough for us to thrash out for the next week or so the second post really grapples with the main bones of contention between us the first is more lighthearted and tells about such things as kaflowitzdebatingpoints tm which he continues to rack up on both talk abortion and talk religion misc while setting follow ups to talk abortion alone his lame excuse for the latter policy is that he gets a prompt as to where to set follow ups and does not follow talk religion misc much this suggests that he is being hypocritical in not also setting his newsgroups line to talk abortion alone peter nyikos
talk.religion.misc	re spreading christianity re christian extremist kills doctor most of the key issues in the line post to which i am following up are dealt with in the following post i made on talk abortion yesterday modified to correct the next to last paragraph message id nyikos milo math scarolina edu references nyikos milo math scarolina edu nyikos milo math scarolina edu apr cbnewsj cb att com in apr cbnewsj cb att com decay cbnewsj cb att com dean kaflowitz writes in article nyikos milo math scarolina edu nyikos math scarolina edu peter nyikos writes in cs apr cslab g cs brown edu cs cs brown edu john bates writes in article nyikos milo math scarolina edu nyikos math scarolina edu peter nyikos writes perhaps out of dedication to your convictions i never never thought that you would be consciously intellectually dishonest though i am not can you show me anything that would lead you to think otherwise see the spreading christianity thread in which he says i ignore certain statements that i specifically acknowledged and dean did not he called them the great commission but this is not descriptive of jesus s words in matt matt jerusalem bible translation and if anyone does not welcome you or listen to what you have to say as you walk out of the house or town shake the dust from your feet matt i tell you solemnly on the day of judgment it will not go as hard with the land of sodom and gomorrah as with that town in the post to which dean is referring above i said the above is a good description of kaflowitz who keeps harping on shaking the dust off the feet but ignoring what christ said next the highlighted words refer to matt and respectively and dean countered actually this comment of your s is a perfect example of what an intellectually dishonest little sparrowfart you are since i specifically acknowledged the great commission and the entreaty to spread the word in fact it is the combination of the two statements i was addressing and not just the one and for you to characterize that as ignoring the instruction to spread the word is a good example of what a dishonest little fellow you are of course matt quoted above makes no mention of instruction to spread the word all these quotes btw are from message id apr cbnewsj cb att com in which at the end he claims i did not answer a question which i answered and which he deleted to get the chronology right he deleted the answer and then said i didn t answer and i claim it correctly because my question went do you too measure the goodness of a post by its entertainment value and care not a whit for such mundane things as truth and falsehood and the closest dean came to an answer was peter peter peter you re just so stupid pretentious dull and generally unworthy of the value you place on yourself that the sport is all there is of course this does not answer my question which has to do with posts in general and not my posts in particular surely even dean knows this yet he brazenly asserts otherwise reinforcing his claim with an insult so i now restore the answer to your question that you deleted if you re still unable to figure it out ask a nice kid at the local junior high to help you it really doesn t take much sophistication to understand on top of which i doubt that the answer is at all representative of dean s true frame of mind the insults you have seen quoted thus far are but a small sample of the stream that oozes out of dean s mind throughout the line post from which these quotes were taken one wonders whether dean s mind is so warped as to find sport in all this he even dredges up a falsified account of events that transpired earlier on another thread you made an ass of yourself by claiming that it was in the tradition of lent to make public announcements of the sins of other individuals false i said it was the tradition to recall and atone for one s sins that i made public announcements of the sins of others sins btw that were a matter of public record documented in the posts of others is a different matter many of the individuals involved are so nearly amoral that they do not see as sins what morally upright people see as sins so i pointed some of them out and i expressly set up a whole thread your turn to let people point out my sins to me dean again you made an ass of yourself by saying that my statement of the tradition of tzedukkah was somehow an attempt to paint jews as plaster saints thereby revealing your inability to understand the discussion as well as showing your dislike for people saying positive things about jews and now you show your intellectual dishonesty by repeatedly ignoring the simple argument being made and then claiming i am ignoring the very argument i acknowledge actually what happened was that dean made it seem like any jew who gave alms or did other acts of charity in public was a hypocrite according to jewish customs in doing so he was caricaturing jewish customs as being almost impossibly demanding as well as implicitly slandering all jews who make public their acts of charity i went very easily on dean for this giving him the benefit of the doubt in a post following my initial crack about plaster saints suggesting that he had been merely careless in his wording in an astonishing act of ingratitude dean now serves up an incredibly distorted picture of what took place between us and using it as the basis of one insult after another peter nyikos
talk.religion.misc	re part and part re homosexuality hudson athena cs uga edu paul hudson jr writes in article m njxcg vec juts ccc amdahl com rich bellacera amail amdahl com writes why don t we just stick to the positive and find ways to bring people to jesus istead of taking bullwhips and driving them away certainly we should not use a bullwhip to drive people from jesus but we shouldn t water down the gospel to draw people in very well put and in the case of someone who calls himself a christian brother yet continues in his sin and claims that his sin is not a sin at all but perfectly acceptable what should be done should christians just ignore a sinful lifestyle in order to not offend the person by reaffirming that the lifestyle is sinful according to the bible are they using a bullwhip to drive people from jesus frankly i find the occurance of a homosexual christian attempting to pass himself off as a straight christian in order to have other christians accept his chastisement better a lot more serious than people reaffirming that the bible teaches homosexuality is a sin walter
talk.religion.misc	the divine masters the divine masters most christians would agree and correctly so that jesus christ was a divine master and a projection of god into the physical world god incarnate but there are some very important related facts that christians are completely ignorant of as are followers of most other world religions first jesus christ was not unique john notwith standing there is always at least one such divine master god incarnate physically alive in this world at all times a continuous succession throughout history both before and after the life of jesus the followers of some of these masters founded the world s major religions usually perverting the teachings of their master in the process christians for example added threats of eternal damnation in hell and deleted the teaching of reincarnation secondly and more importantly after a particular master physically dies and leaves this world there is nothing that he can do for anybody except for the relatively few people that he initiated while he was still physically alive that is simply the way god set things up in the universes therefore all those christians who worship jesus and pray to jesus and expect jesus to return and save them from their sins are only kidding themselves and have allowed themselves to be duped by a religion that was mostly manufactured by the romans and emotional feelings are a totally deceiving indicator for religious validity these things are similarly true for followers of most other major world religions including islam thirdly the primary function of each master is to tune his initiates into the audible life stream or sound current referred to as the word in john and as the river of life in revelation and to personally guide each of them thru the upper levels of heaven while they are still connected to their living physical bodies by a silver cord true salvation which completes a soul s cycles of reincarnation in the physical and psychic planes is achieved only by reaching at least the soul plane which is five levels or universes above the physical universe and this cannot be done without the help of a physically living divine master one such divine master alive today is an american sri harold klemp the living eck master or mahanta for the eckankar organization now headquartered in minneapolis p o box zip another divine master is maharaj gurinder singh ji now living in punjab india and is associated with the sant mat organization one of the classic books on this subject is the path of the masters radha soami books p o box gardena ca written in by dr julian johnson a theologian and surgeon who spent the last years of his life in india studying under and closely observing the sant mat master of that time maharaj sawan singh ji several of the eckankar books including some authored by sri paul twitchell or sri harold klemp can be found in most public and university libraries and some book stores or obtained thru inter library loan the book eckankar the key to secret worlds by sri paul twitchell is another classic many christians are likely to confuse the masters with the anti christ which is or was to be a temporary world dictator during the so called last days but the masters don t ever rule even when asked or expected to do so as jesus was people who continue following christianity islam or other orthodox religions with a physically dead master will continue on their cycles of reincarnation between the psychic planes and this miserable physical world until they finally accept initiation from a physically living divine master re incarnation the book here and hereafter by ruth montgomery describes several kinds of evidence supporting reincarnation as a fact of life including hypnotic regressions to past lives about accurate the subconscious mind sometimes makes things up especially with a bad hypnotist spontaneous recall especially by young children some of whom can identify their most recent previous relatives homes possessions etc dream recall of past life experi ences deja vu familiarity with a far off land while travel ing there for the first time on vacation the psychic read ings of the late edgar cayce and even supporting statements from the christian bible including matthew john the baptist was the reincarnation of elias and john how can a person possibly sin before he is born unless he lived before always use the king james version later versions are per versions strong interests innate talents strong phobias etc typically originate from a person s past lives for example a strong fear of swimming in or traveling over water usually results from having drowned at the end of a previous life and sometimes a person will take an immediate dislike to another person being met for the first time in this life because of a bad encounter with him during a previous incarnation the teaching of reincarnation also includes the law of karma galatians revelation etc people would behave much better toward each other if they knew that their actions in the present will surely be reaped by them in the future or in a future incarnation nd comings if a divine master physically dies translates before a particular initiate of his does then when that initiate physically dies translates the master will meet him on the astral level and take him directly to the soul plane this is the one and only correct meaning of a nd coming it is an individual experience not something that happens for everyone all at once people who are still waiting for jesus nd coming are waiting in vain planes of existence the physical universe is the lowest of at least a dozen major levels of existence above the physical plane is the astral plane the causal plane the mental plane the etheric plane often counted as the upper part of the mental plane the soul plane and several higher spiritual planes the soul plane is the first true heaven counting upward from the physical the planes between but not including the physical and soul planes are called the psychic planes it is likely that esp telepathy astrological influences radionic effects biological transmutations see the book with that title and other phenomena without an apparent physical origin result from interactions between the psychic planes and the physical plane the major planes are also sub divided for example a sub plane of the astral plane is called hades and the christian hell occupies a small part of it created there less than years ago by the early catholic church by some kind of black magic or by simply teaching its existence in a threatening manner the christian heaven is located elsewhere on the astral plane good christians will go there for a short while and then reincarnate back to earth sound current vs blind faith the christian religion demands of its followers an extraordinary amount of blind faith backed up by little more than good feeling which is totally deceiving if a person is not hearing some form of the sound current the word the bani the audible life stream then his cycles of reincarnation in this miserable world will continue the sound current manifests differently for different initiates and can sound like a rushing wind ocean waves on the sea shore buzzing bees higher pitched buzzing sound a flute various heavenly music or other sounds in eckankar members start hearing it near the end of their first year as a member this and other experiences such as soul travel replace blind faith for more information answers to your questions etc please consult my cited sources books addresses un altered reproduction and dissemination of this important information is encouraged robert e mcelwaine nd initiate in eckankar but not an agent thereof
talk.religion.misc	re rosicrucian order s in article qppef i b usenet ins cwru edu ch cleveland freenet edu tony alicea writes kent you say that there are about competing rosicrucian orders existing today most of them are spin offs from oto and other competing organizations from the th century france germany maybe i should write an article please don t huh it might be interesting he is relating the story as i have heard it btw about all this i spent some time investigating these organizations and their conceptual world view systems name just three really competing rosicrucian orders i have probably spent more time than you doing the same none of them are spin offs from o t o the opposite may be the case huh care to back that up josh
talk.religion.misc	re merlin mithras and magick in article pegasus fp dialin uoregon edu pegasus aaa uoregon edu pegasus writes in article joshua apr bailey cpac washington edu joshua cpac washington edu joshua geller wrote in article pegasus fp dialin uoregon edu pegasus aaa uoregon edu laurieewbrandt writes lewb lets add to those percentages for the orphaic docterians brought lewb to the group by paul saul who was a high ranking initiate on the lewb development of orphaic mysteries see jane harrisons prolegomena to the lewb study of greek religion cambridge u press and you can easly draw lewb your own conclusions josh perhaps you can quote just a bit of her argument love to but i must do it a bit later my copy of harrison in packed but the last chapter as best as i can rember deals with orphic mysteries and their views of women though she does not come out and say it it is strongly implyed that the christian view was drawn heavly from the orphic and other major cults of the time i would really appreciate if when someone brought something like this up they didn t back out when someone asked for details have a day josh
talk.religion.misc	re davidians and compassion in article c slas b blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee writes in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes so we have this highly christian religious order that put fire on their house killing most of the people inside we have no way to know that the cultists burned the house it could have been the batf and fbi we only have the government s word for it after all and people who started it by a no knock search with concussion grenades are hardly disinterested observers nor to point out the obvious are the deluded siege mentality followers of a religious nut case who thought he was jesus christ or possibly the big guy personally much as i regard the batf and fbi as condupes i ll take their word over a bunch of silly pinks who were stoopid enough to lock themselves up with a goofball like david koresh in a makeshift arsenal the doge of south st louis dobbs approved media conspirator tm one step beyond sundays to pm fm st louis community radio you ll pay to know what you really think j r bob dobbs
talk.religion.misc	re freemasonry and the southern baptist convention there were some recent developments in the dispute about masonry among southern baptists i posted a summary over in bit listserv christia and i suppose that it might be useful here note that i do not necessarily agree or disagree with any of what follows i present it as information for a short summary a southern baptist named larry holly wrote a book claiming that freemasonry is a religion incompatible with christianity mr holly s father rejects christianity and mr holly blames that on the masons the sbc s home missions board includes an interfaith witness department which studies other religions and how to teach them about christ a few years ago they were ordered to produce a report on masonry they concluded that it was not a religion and therefore was outside their speciality however mr holly led a movement of people who oppose masonry and last year the convention again ordered the hmb to study masonry i got the feeling that they were saying you got the wrong answer last time try to do better and get the answer we want anyway there s been a bit of infighting and some inappropriate actions but the dust has settled and the report is in nobody is entirely happy with it but everybody seems willing to live with it both sides are saying things such as this was the best we were going to get in the current environment the report commends the masons for the charity work they do such as the hospitals and burn centers they operate as well as efforts to help the elderly and prevent drug abuse the report acknowledges that many well known christians are and have been masons and notes that many teachings of masonry are supportive of christian faith and practice examples of the latter include belief in god emphases on honesty and integrity and that some masonic lodges incorporate explicit christian beliefs on the other hand they note that some aspects of masonry are incompatible with southern baptist principles these included the use of titles which some people consider sacrilegious the taking of certain oaths even though they are not meant seriously the undeniably pagan and or occultic writings of some masonic leaders the implication in some masonic writings that salvation can be achieved by good works and the racial discrimination practiced by many masonic lodges i note with some chagrin that baptist churches as a whole aren t really in a place to speak on this last point the report concludes that masonry is not a religion and says that membership should not be endorsed or censured but left to the discretion of individuals this was in part because there is variation among different masonic lodges and while one may include elements strongly against christianity another may not many southern baptists have strong convictions about the priesthood of the believer and the autonomy of the local church and this history probably influenced how the report came out the information above was gleaned from the religious herald a publication of the baptist general association of virginia and baptists today which does not have any direct links to a religious organisation autonomy is a big issue among some baptists because i have neither the report itself nor whatever masonic documents are relevant to these issues none of the above comes with a guarantee your mileage may vary void where prohibited darren f provine kilroy gboro rowan edu milton we use only the finest baby frogs dew picked and flown from iraq cleansed in finest quality spring water lightly killed and then sealed in a succulent swiss quintuple smooth treble cream milk chocolate envelope and lovingly frosted with glucose praline that s as may be it s still a frog
talk.religion.misc	odds and ends just a few cheap shots a christianity riddle what is the shortest street in jerusalem answer the street of the righteous poles limrick there was an archeologist thostle who found an amazing fossil by the way it was bent and the knot it the end twas the penis of paul the apostle jingle christianity hits the spot twelve apostles thats a lot jesus christ and a virgin too christianity s the faith for you with apologies to pepsi cola and its famous jingle riddle how many christians does it take to save a light bulb answer none only jesus can save aphorism jesus saves moses invests proof that jesus was jewish he lived at home till he was he went into his fathers business he thought he mother was a virgin his mother thought he was god qed so long you all bob kolker i would rather spend eternity in hell with interesting people than eternity in heaven with christians if you can t love the constitution then at least hate the government
talk.religion.misc	re ignorance is bliss was is it good that jesus died in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes in article f ap quack kfu com pharvey quack kfu com paul harvey wrote in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes ignorance is not bliss ignorance is strength help spread the truth of ignorance huh if ignorance is strength then i won t distribute this piece of information if i want to follow your advice contradiction above cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net he was quoting big brother from orwell s
talk.religion.misc	the magi of matthew was the jewish discomfort with jesus in article bd a paranet fidonet org bill carlson p f n z fidonet org bill carlson writes since everywhere i look zoroaster is suggested as being a probable descendant of daniel suppose you prove he wasn t ref encyclopedia of religion mircea eliade magi sneak preview later still eschatology and apocalyptics were a fertile meeting ground for iranian and judeo christian religions as can be seen in the famous oracles of hystaspes a work whose iranian roots are undeniable and which most likely dates from the beginning of the christian era probably the second century ce widengren the zoroastrian doctrine of the savior of the future saoshyant was the basis for the story of the coming of the magi to bethlehem in the gospel of matthew the old persian word magu rendered in greek by magos is of uncertain etymology it may originally have meant member of the tribe as in the avestan compound mogu tbish hostile to a member of the tribe this meaning would have been further resticted among the medes to member of the priestly tribe and perhaps to priest benveniste boyce the term is probably of median origin given that herodotus mentions the magoi as one of the six tribes of the medes for a variety of reasons we can consider the magi to have been members of a priestly tribe of median origin in western iran among the persians they were responsible for liturgical functions as well as for maintaining their knowledge of the holy and the occult most likely the supremacy of the median priesthood in western iran became established during the time of the median monarchy that dominated the persians from the end of the eighth century through the first half of the sixth century bce until the revolt of cyrus the great bce the persians were indebted to the medes for their political and civil institutions as well even if hypotheses have been advanced concerning the existence of magi of persian origin in the achaemenid period boyce we must still maintain that they were of median origin this is demonstrated by the eposide of the revolt of gaumata the magian mentioned by darius i bce in the inscription at bisutun iran as well as by greek sources indeed herodotus insists on the idea of the usurpatory power of the medes against the persians through the conspiracy of the magi the fact that the magi may have been members of a tribe that handed down the sacerdotal arts in a hereditary fashion naturally did not exclude the possibility that some of them undertook secular prefessions this seems to be attested by the elamite tablets at persepolis there is a theses put forth by giuseppe messina that denies that the magi are members of an ethnic group by suggesting that they are simply members of the priesthood a priesthood of purely zoroastrian origin this thesis is untenable on the other hand the hypothesis that their name is related to the avestan term magavan derived from the gathic maga vedic magha gift is not without foundation mole the meaning of maga can probably be found in conformity with the pahlavi tradition within the context of the concept of purity or separation of the mixture of the two opposed principles of spirit and matter the maga which has been erroneously interpreted as chorus from the root mangh which is said to mean sing the magic song nyberg and has been rendered simply by an expression like unio mystica seems to be an ecstatic condition that opens the mind to spiritual vision in any case though there may be a relation between the old persian term magu and the avestan terms magavan and maga we must maintain a clear distinction between the magi and the avestan priesthood the avesta ignores the median or old persian term despite a recent hypothesis proposed by h w bailey old persian inscriptions ignore the avestan term for priest athravan vedic athravan even if this is perhaps present in an achaeminid setting in the elamite tablets of persepolis gershevitch the term magu has been present in zoroastrianism throughout its history the pahlavi terms mogh mard and mobad represent its continuation the latter in particular derives from an older form magupati head of the magi during the sasanid period third to seventh centuries ce which saw the formation of a hierarchically organized church the title mobadan mobad the high priest of high priests came to be used to designate the summit of the ecclesiastical hierarchy the magi practiced consanguineous marriage or khvaetvadatha av pahl khwedodah they also performed a characteristic funeral rite the exposure of the corpse to animals and vultures to remove the flesh and thereby cleanse it the corpse was not supposed to decompose lest it be contaminated by the demons of putrefaction this practice later became typical of the entire zoroastrian community and led to the rise of a complex funeral ritual in iran and among the parsis in india stone towers known as dakhmas were built especially for this rite during the time of herodotus the practice of exposure of the corpse was in vogue only among the magi the persians generally sprinkled the corpse with wax then buried it the practice was widespread however among the peoples of central asia the magi were the technicians of and experts on worship it was impossible to offer sacrifices without the presence of a magus during the performance of a ritual sacrifice the magus sang of the theogony the magi were possibly the custodians of a tradition of sacred poetry but we know nothing about the relationship of this tradition to the various parts of the avesta and was called upon to interpret dreams and to divine the future the magi were also known for the practice of killing harmful or ahrimanical animals khrafstra such as snakes and ants they dressed in the median style wearing pants tunics and coats with sleeves they wore a characteristic head covering of felt gr tiara with strips on the sides that could be used to cover the nose and mouth during rituals to avoid contaminating consecrated objects with their breath boyce the color of these caps in conformity with a tradition that is probably of indo european origin according to georges dumezil was that of the priesthood white in all likelihood during the achaemenid period the magi were not in possession of a well defined body of doctrine and it is probable that they gradually adopted zoroastrianism they were most likely a clergy consisting of professional priests who were not tied to a rigid orthodoxy but were naturally inclined to eclecticism and syncretism nonetheless they must have been jealous guardians of the patrimony of zorastrian traditions by virtue of this they were the educators of the royal princes the wisest of them was responsible for teaching the prince the magic of zarathushtra son of horomazes and thus the cult of the gods magi who excelled in other virtues were entrusted with the education of the prince so that he would learn to be just courageous and master of himself during the achaemenid period the magi maintained a position of great influence although they were certainly subordinate to the emperor despite several dramatic events such as the massacre they suffered after the death of gaumata the magian in which according to herodotus who calls himself smerdis the persians killed a large number of magi to avenge the usurpation the magi nevertheless managed to maintain their influence at court in media in persia and in the various regions of the empire where they were stationed as a consequence of the persian civilian and military administration no priesthood of antiquity was more famous than that of the magi they were renowned as followers of zarathushtra zoroaster as the teachers of some of the greatest greek thinkers pythagoras democritus plato as the wise men who arrived guided by a star at the manger of the newborn savior in bethlehem and as the propagators of a cult of the sun in india but they were also known as the chaldeans the priesthood of babylon known for its occultism this was perhaps the reason that the term magos had a pejorative sense in greek like goes expert in the magic arts bidez and cumont indeed the chaldeans were experts in all types of magical arts especially astrology and had a reputation for wisdom as well as knowledge to understand the reasons for such various and sometimes discordant views it is necessary to distinguish between the magi of iran proper and the so called western magi who were later hellenized in the achaemenid period both must have been at least in part zoroastrian but the western magi those of the iranian diaspora in asia minor syria mesopotamia and armenia who came in contact with diverse religious traditions must have sooner or later and in varying degrees been influenced by syncretic concepts the greeks were familiar with both kinds of magi and depending on their varying concerns would emphasize one or the other aspect of them classical historians and geographers including herodotus and strabo document their customs while the philosophers dwell above all on their doctrines dualism belief in the hereafter magian cosmology and cosmogony and their theology and eschatology those sources most interested in the doctrines of the magi even speak of zarathushtra as a magus in doing so they are repeating what the magi themselves said from the median and achaemenid periods when they adopted zoroastrianism at that time they embraced zarathushtra as one of their own and placed themselves under his venerable name zoroastrianism had already undergone several profound transformations in the eastern community by the time of the acheamenids and was already adapting those elements of the archaic religion that refused to die it has been said quite often in an attempt to characterize the precise role of the magi in the zoroastrian tradition that the vendidad from vi daevo data the law abjuring daivas part of the avesta should be attributed to them this collection of texts from various periods is primarily concerned with purificatory rules and practices nonetheless the hypothesis is hardly plausible since the first chapter of the vendidad a list of sixteen lands created by ahura mazda the supreme god of zoroastrianism but contaminated by an attack by ahriman pahl gathic avestan angra mainyu the other supreme god and the ultimate source of all evil and suffering does not mention western iran persia or media the land of ragha mentioned in the text cannot be median raghiana furthermore it has been noted gershevitch that if the authors had been magi the absence of any reference to western iranian institutions including their own priesthood would be very strange the magi were above all the means by which the zoroastrian tradition and the corpus of the avesta have been transmitted to us from the second half of the first millennium bce on this has been their principal merit we can attribute directly to the magi the new formulation that iranian dualism assumed known to us especially from greek sources and in part from the pahlavi literature of the ninth and tenth centuries ce according to this formulation the two poles of the dualism are no longer as in the gathas spenta mainyu beneficent spirit and angra mainyu hostile spirit but ahura mazda himself and angra mainyu gershevitch see ahura mazda and angra mainyu this trans formation was of immense consequence for the historical development of zoro astrianism and was most likely determined by the contact of the magi with the mesopotamian religious world in this new dualism which was that later known to the greeks aristotle eudemus of rhodes theopompus and others we can see the affirmation of a new current of thought within zoroastrianism to which we give the name zurvanism see zurvanism thanks to their adherence to zoroastrianism the magi played an enormously important role in the transmission of zarathushtra s treachings as well as in the definition of the new forms that these would assume historically their natural propensity to eclecticism and syncretism also helped the diffusion of zoroastrian ideas in the communities of the iranian diaspora the greeks began to study their doctrines and to take an interest in them xanthus of lydia hermodorus aristotle theopompus hermippus dinon even writing treatises on the persian religion of which only the titles and a few fragments have survived in the hellenistic period the magi were seen as a secular school of wisdom and writings on magic astrology and alchemy were lent the authority of such prestigious names as zarathushtra ostanes and hystaspes forming an abundant apocryphal literature bidez and cumont later still eschatology and apocalyptics were a fertile meeting ground for iranian and judeo christian religions as can be seen in the famous oracles of hystaspes a work whose iranian roots are undeniable and which most likely dates from the beginning of the christian era probably the second century ce widengren the zoroastrian doctrine of the savior of the future saoshyant was the basis for the story of the coming of the magi to bethlehem in the gospel of matthew see saoshyant the sasanid period saw the magi once again play a determining role in the religious history of iran concerned to win back the western magi de menasce and eager to consolidate zoroastrianism as the national religion of iran the priests of iranian sanctuaries in media and persia were able to establish a true state church strongly hierarchical and endowed with an orthodoxy based on the formation of a canon of scriptures the leading figures in the development of a state religion and of zoroastrian orthodoxy were tosar and kerder the persecutors of mani in the third century saoshyant the avestan term saoshyant future benefactor mpers soshans designates the savior of the world who will arrive at a future time to redeem humankind the concept of the future savior is one of the fundamental notions of zoro astrianism together with that of dualism it appears as early as in the gathas zarathushtra zoroaster as the prophet of the religion is himself a sao shyant one who performs his works for the frashokereti the end of the present state of the world when existence will be rehabilitated and made splendid see frashokereti later zoroastrian doctrine developed this notion into a true eschatological myth and expanded the number of saoshyants from one to three all the saviors are born from the seed of zarathushtra which is preserved through the ages in lake kansaoya identified with present day lake helmand in seistan iran protected by fravashis or guardian spirits the greatest of the awaited saoshyants the victorious astvatereta he who embodies truth the son of the vispataurvairi she who conquers all is the third who will make existence splendid he appears in yashts upon his arrival humankind will no longer be subject to old age death or corruption and will be granted unlimited power at that time the dead will be resurrected and the living will be immortal and indestructable brandishing the weapon with which he kills the powerful enemies of the world of truth that is the world of the spirit and of asha astvatereta will look upon the whole of corporeal existence and render it imperishable he and his comrades will engage in a great battle with the forces of evil which will be destroyed the name astvatereta is clearly the result of theological speculation kellens as are those of his two brothers ukhshyatereta he who makes truth grow and ukhshyatnemah he who makes reverence grow the names of the three virgins yashts who are impregnated with the seed of zarathushtra when they bathe in lake kansaoya and give birth to the saoshyants are equally speculative each of these saoshyants will arrive at the beginning of a millennium initiating a new age and a new cycle of existence astvatereta will appear in the third and final millennium to save mankind the doctrine of the future savior had already taken shape in the archaemenid period sixth to fourth century bce it was not perhaps the principal element in the formation of the messianic idea but it was certainly a determining factor one that enjoyed great success in the hellenistic period beyond the confines of the iranian world a similar concept that of the future buddha maitreya was most likely indebted to it and christian messianism can trace its roots to the same source
talk.religion.misc	re clarification of personal position in article c rbht fw athena cs uga edu hudson athena cs uga edu paul hudson jr writes in article c muiw aqc mailer cc fsu edu dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu darius lecointe writes if it were a sin to violate sunday no one could ever be forgiven for that for jesus never kept sunday holy he only recognized one day of the seven as holy jesus also recognized other holy days like the passover acts says that no more should be layed on the gentiles than that which is necessary the sabbath is not in the list nor do any of the epistles instruct people to keep the th day while christians were living among people who did not keep the th day it looks like that would have been a problem instead we have scriptures telling us that all days can be esteemed alike romans and that no man should judge us in regard to what kind of food we eat jewish holy days we keep or in regard to the sabbath col the question is on what authority do we proclaim that the requirements of the fourth commandment are no longer relevant to modern christians i don t think that the sabbath or any other command of the law is totally irrelevant to modern christians but what about collosions where it says that we are not to be judged in regard to the keeping of the sabbath why are you running away from the word of jesus has somebody superseded the word of jesus if you don t follow the morality of the ten commandments and the law and the prophets and the word of jesus whose morality do you follow
talk.religion.misc	re that kill by sword must be killed by sword in article apr utarlg uta edu b zaw utarlg uta edu stephen writes in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes so are you happy now when people including innocent kids died today it s amazing how everyone automatically blames one side or the other one thing for sure koresh will have no chance to defend himself against the statements lacking in fact or court sponsored verification made by agents who participated in the situation that killed him i don t know they murdered him i also don t know that the branch davidians set a fire and suicidede it is sick of batf or fbi spokepeople to make such comments in advance of forensic pathology stephen thank you god speed no kinda numb i thought something like this was going to happen over a week ago one of the things that s been obvious from the yah start is that when there are two armed camps neither of which yields it s usually get slaughtered when any little spark sets it off which is why koresh and company shouldn t have stockpiled weapons and why the batf shouldn t have come primed for a raid bingo am i the only one to notice a no peaceful attempt to serve a warrant b six months to develop a scene and six days to end it c ah god children at least adults plus at the beginning and more batf agents all dead painful point if the davidians fired first why were the batf on the roof rather than taking cover has anyone asked themselves these questions have you seen the entire video sequences taken during the opening rounds i seem to recall missing several key parts a the first five minutes of day one only the shooting part comes out b what happened to the feds video units you mean they do not carry helmet cams wonder why not how is it you can have camera crews with live transmission video present and not have an uninterrupted record a you realize the units carry ittle bitty mm backups that hold minutes per unit and there are twounits on the professional handhelds so no tape turnover gaps b until all views are seen it is premature to point fingers in either direction as you well point out stephen anyone batf bd x bd other could have touched it off by mistake or maliciously more on this below once koresh was shot disregarding his being a religious leader and apocalyptically obsessed most likely the people inside just went on drill just like the batf outside is the lesson that automatic responses are very hazardous last resort measures yes but it is so hard toremain human under the full pressure of hazard game playing and life painful point either side could have backed off to help defuse the situation we see the problem constantly here on the net with flaming ego problems nuff said more to the point when someone dies almost like it was intended that way both sides will kill to maintain their innocence a contradiction in terms painful point it doesn t help to take sides in such a situation just adds fuel to the fire better is to let it burn out on it s own true usually i pick the unpopular side and point out from the evidence seen what might have alternatively happened best example i can think of is christ with the tax coin he didn t have one and so didn t sanction the roman authority unduly when they showed it to him he noted that it was caesar s minting and so said give it to him no waste of time and then he got back to more worthwhile concerns god s will this requires someone interested in god s will please note that the outstanding overt problem in this country today is one where the government wants caesar s coin to pay off the debt the anti tax movement of today and the anti ssan as i d groups would do well to note who the issuing authority is ditto for those yes the american people not the federal government and if it is not spent towards that end no one deserves the coin made in the image of god yah fewpeople hear the contradiction money made in the image of god no need to stir things up in ever larger revo revo revolution as governments turn over and over and over i wish you were wrong many pundits are saying years the onyl good thing to come out of my divorce and my exposure to the damned pardon me american divorce attorney is i have no money left to lose to taxes or inflation painful point for many this was just entertainment thumbs up thumbs down just another thriller like terminator or a good old ball game is the lesson that we ve become jaded to media reality children dead if anyone thinks blaming koresh or the batf helps this any at all is sick and wrong the reason you can tell that the batf may not be entirely straight on this is that the leaders at press conferences havew made any comments about even the possibility that koresh or his followers caused this the batf agentss are more concerned with their repuations and morals not my fault koresh did it than they are with dead children same goes for koresh his followers who are all mostly dead painful point la burned the davidians burned in one case society has abandoned the people which has returned to a frontier in the other the outskirts were bumping against the suburbs is the lesson that what s lawful in different areas of society depends more on conditions than laws more on power and favoritism my personal opinion look to history whenever privilege has replaced whatever token of objective law and justice a society has had hitlerrs have followed if we don t learn the lessons or at least make an honest effort the next conflagration will no doubt be closer to home rather than putting out fires aren t there much more important concerns for us to work on you do your name sake proud stephen its hard but please keep on keeping on each voice in the wilderness now will save a generation unborn from horror kent who can t cheers today exactly what keeps me from being a bomb thrower is my loving god as irra tional as that is for so many one direct benefit is being able to keep things in perspective ks the day i need a gun or abomb to protect myself in this society is the day that society is already beyond redemption and that aint redundant if you have any christian belief aytall and the day that i cannot peacefully enjoin others in the act that thoreau called civil disobedience to rectify the wrongs that my society practises without undue harm or punishment befalling me is the day that society has ceased to be a human society and become a society of animals we are very cclose to that such as who hurts more the ones who died or the loved ones who are left besides the lessons it s also time for many to grieve including those who ve lost their faith in others or in god i m learning to be patient and let things heal god willing six years fighting an unjust court issue still struggling to be patient for those who like contrary questions nb i was not there i am not a branch davidian nor a law official hater i do hate liars or the six letter variety of same the official side has its advocates already lets balance the equation and asj a few questions on the other side for the sake of an old saw the batf abd fbi seem to want to bypass innocent until proven guilty not innocent until presumed guilty where are the video tapes from the tanks all of them don t tell me they do not exist they are standard equipment so you think koresh fired the place because of the explosion a tear gas comes with an aerosol to spread it this aerosol is deliberately made to be as non flammable as possible it is as non flammable as possible gotcha when in isolation from other substances why was a pipe deliveryu system used rather than remote launchers why did the fbi not announce this window blown in plus tear gas five minutes then the wall come down and maintain a left to right sequence b most aerosols also have a secondary compound that when mixed in becomes a very flammable and difficult to trace suspension with a very special property exposure to brief eruptions of high heat muzzle blasts or long exposure to low heat matches a stove will not tend to ignite what other chemicals come up in the forensics who else will be allowed to test the site c after a few minutes to hours ifdesired the combnation rate can be controlled as desired the mixture can be made to become veryignitable onb exposure to a temperature above a certain point a tracer round for a certain heat quantity a small explosive charge or for a length of time start a wall fire and wait check your military records look at the tapes why were tanks large capacity delivey systems tear gas why not somnorifics and now why the hurry was there still a comm channel open to the outside do you see any trace of fire coming back to the compound in the videos all the videos which ones are missing do i sound paranoid maybe am i probably not you trust the fbi and batf to render judgement in advance of a court god help us for we are surely not helping ourselves you trut the federal gevernment to give us a clean slate you are trillion admitted down and counting look again did it happen that way i do not know i was not there and it should wait for a court to decide but will that happen people will not have the chance to tell their side as the batf leader was on camera no one wins except more force next time listen to your hearts people thanx again stephen j stephen roy andrew crabtree roy red haired king andrew the virtuous one crabtree iron workers
talk.religion.misc	re question on sabbath question correction there are a few groups that continue to believe christians have to worship on the sabbath saturday the best known are the seventh day adventists and jehovah s witnesses they argue that act is not a regular worship service but a special meeting to see paul off and that i cor doesn t explicitly say it s a regular worship service jehovah s witnesses do not believe that christians are required to observe the sabbath whether it is on saturday or sunday the sabbath was part of a covenent between god and the israelites and is not required for christians steve peterson
talk.religion.misc	re christian owned organization list in article apr organpipe uug arizona edu ece bigdog engr arizona edu wrote sorry but mormons aren t generally considered to be christians kcochran nyx cs du edu b c d e f g k m r s t tsakc my thoughts my posts my ideas my responsibility my beer my pizza ok do you have some pumps and a purse in this shade a perfume that whispers please come back to me i m looking for something in green laurie morgan sorry but it doesn t matter what you think i am a christian who happens to belong to the lds church the church of jesus christ of latter day saints i don t usually read t r m it is truly informative to stop by and see that there are still people in the world like those that forced my ancestors into the deserts of utah and then out of the country entirely my grandmother was born in mexico where her family had moved to escape religious persecution in the us i m willing to admit that members of other churches are christians if they believe in christ and try to follow his teachings even though they have different interpretations of the bible and yet these other churches often go out of their way to define whether or not i am considered to be christian could someone mail me a set of rules beliefs that must be followed to be a christian does this set of rules exclude other large bodies of believers i know this is a waste of everyone s time this has probably been discussed n times etc i guess i m more sensitive to this demonization after what went on in texas don corbitt donc microsoft com mail flames post apologies support short sigs three lines max i consider this a rebuttal not a flame
talk.religion.misc	re is it good that jesus died brian lpl arizona edu brian ceccarelli writes bskendig netcom com brian kendig writes and i maintain some people do not want to enter into the light and the knowledge that they alone are their own masters because they fear it they are too afraid of having to face the world on their own terms are you your own master do you have any habits that you cannot break if i have a habit that i really want to break and i am willing to make whatever sacrifice i need to make to break it then i do so there have been bad habits of mine that i ve decided to put forth the effort to break and i ve done so there have been other bad habits that i ve decided are not worth the effort to break it s my choice either way i am my own master i choose what i want to do i weigh the benefits of my actions against their consequences and i use my experience to help me deal with the unexpected which in turn make me more experienced i don t always succeed but i never fail either i learn do you have any habits you can t break why not for one you seem unable to master your lack of desire to understand even the slightest concept of the bible i have arrived at my own understanding of christianity just as you ve probably arrived at your own understanding of islam that is most likely very different from the way a moslem thinks of his religion are you unable to master your lack of desire to understand even the slightest concept of the quran if that s different then how is it different from what you accuse me of can i accuse you of having no desire to understand even the slightest concept of atheism how about sexual sins gotta any of those secret desires in your head that you harbor but can get control of do you dehumanize women when they walk past you do you degrade them to a sex object in your head of course not that s disgusting for centuries religions have been discriminating on sex and treating women as second class humans that s one of the reasons i renounced my christianity do you insult people unknowingly then regret it later yet do it again the next time opportunity presents itself no i don t insult people period it s not in my nature and it s not something that i want to do either are you truly the master of yourself not yet but my life is the ground i use to practice on the fun is in the getting there i have admitted that i am not the master of my thought life at all times that i sometimes say things i do want to say and then repeat my mistake unwantingly i have admitted to myself that i cannot control every aspect of my being there are times i know i shouldn t say something but then say it anyway there are times i simply forget a lesson i in fact am not my own master we don t start out perfect we ve got to strive to be something better i know my shortcomings and i know my strengths and i live my life according to the decisions i make and i am content to abide with the consequences of my decisions as easily as i ll accept the praise for them there have been times in my life when i ve made mistakes yes i try to never make the same mistake twice i need help jesus promised me this help and i took him up on his offer i have willfully let jesus be my master because jesus knows what is better for me than i myself do i regard christ as a myth i feel that there are far too many people offering far too many interpretations of what he supposedly said and did the only person who can really judge me is me i choose the roads i travel and i decide whether or not i want to reach the end of any given road or turn back and as long as i don t always turn back there s no shame in it when i need help i seek out my friends do you see my point i think you re the one under the rock and i m getting a great tan out here in the sunlight my life has improved immesurably since i abandoned theism come and join me it will be a difficult trip at first until you build up your muscles for the long hike but it s well worth it then i guess ignorance is bliss for you because brian you enjoy not having a clue about the bible and you don t have a clue about what i m saying either open your eyes and see open your ears and listen i m not just spouting off empty words this is my life this is what gives me meaning don t you see i m not going to accept anything that i can t witness with my own eyes or experience with my own senses especially not something as mega powerful as what you re trying to get me to accept surely if you believe in it this strongly you must have a good reason to don t you can you witness motherly love with your senses how does caring and concern for you register with your senses if nothing registers to you other than what you can see taste smell hear and touch then you better become a vulcan and fast you better get rid of your emotions huh you re going way off the track here i say my mother loves me how do i know you ask i can point to definite things she s done for me and i can even just bring her to you so you can ask her face to face you say your deity loves you how do you know i ask you can t even convince me that it exists my god says that you will not cease existing you have life forever you can choose to either live it in hell in eternal torment where there is no communication whatsoever or can choose to live it in paradise with god that is what my god says and that was the issue your made up theism is what it is made up it s wishful thinking if any god dangles heaven before me like a carrot promising untold pleasures to me if i ll only suspend my disbelief and ignore my rationality for just this once then i would choose hell i can not lie to myself to placate another being no matter how powerful it is note also that there are several gods trying to lure me this way yahweh allah zeus odin ra please give me a solid reason to choose one of them over the others description of kendigism deleted hee hee why would you want to live a good life to you you die and that s it don t contradict yourself you have no reason to live a good life it doesn t do you any good in the end your life doesn t do anybody else any good either because everyone dies anyway so you have no reason to lead a good life leading a good life is meaningless why do you do such a meaningless thing that paragraph demonstrates that you haven t listened to a single word i ve said have you ever gone to an amusement park why i mean after a few hours it closes and nothing s different except that you re a few dollars lighter going to the amusement park doesn t do you any good at all why do you do such a meaningless thing the answer is that you think it s fun you play the skee ball over and over because you d like to get better at it even though you re not going to win anything better than a stuffed animal even if you blow ten dollars on it you ride the roller coaster because it s an thrilling experience even though because it scares the dickens out of you in the same way i think life is fun and i don t intend to leave the amusement park of life until they close down for the night d i m sorry i don t feel that sacrificing jesus was something any god i d worship would do unless the sacrifice was only temporary in which case it s not really all that important has the resurrection sunk in jesus is alive jesus is not dead so you and your holy book say by the same token therefore santa claus delivers toys every xmas don t you see i have no reason to believe that what you say is true please give me some reason that i can t similarly apply to santa claus forget the bible for a minute forget quoting verses forget about who said what about this or that show me picture just you and me and a wide open hilltop and convince me that you re right forget that i am a person forget that i know how to type forget that i know how to put a sentence together forget that i know how to send e mail forget my existence proove to me that i exist i can t do it because your existence means nothing more to me than just your communications over the net you have no more bearing on nor importance in my life than that remove it and you will cease to be significant to me are you thereby inferring that your deity is nothing more than a collection of verses in a book and cannot be supported without invoking them or do you mean that the existence of your deity and in fact any other deity that can be written about is as real as your own existence why do you believe what you believe brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun bskendig netcom com de ceux que j ai vus j ose croire n etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent the meaning of life si je ne vaux pas mieux au moins je suis autre is that it ends rousseau
talk.religion.misc	hating the sin but not the sinner what are the consequences of the homophobic ranting of the self righteous well i just noted this on another group and thought i d pass it along the context is talk origins and a report of yet another debate that was nothing but an attempt at mindless bullying and factless assertion by a standard issue creationist the writer reflects that the behavior reported reminds him of some christian groups he has known i believe that the writer is a non homosexual christian there is a very effective technique used to promote unit cohesion among the soldiers of the lord it is called witnessing i ve seen this process used well and poorly the near devil worship i mention was a group that was using the witnessing to get people lathered up to go kill homosexuals or at least terrorize them off campus as it was clearly god s will that they do so i have deleted the specifics of the location as i do not believe it characteristic of the place a state in which i spent my formative first years though it does have unfortunately a subpopulation that this remark fits to a tee michael l siemon i say you are gods sons of the mls panix com most high all of you nevertheless or you shall die like men and fall mls ulysses att com like any prince psalm
talk.religion.misc	apr god s promise in chronicles and he went out to meet asa and said unto him hear ye me asa and all judah and benjamin the lord is with you while ye be with him and if ye seek him he will be found of you but if ye forsake him he will forsake you chronicles
talk.religion.misc	lds thief goes to paradise kermit goes off tangent kermit tensmeyer quoted from a few sources and then wrote something i will attempt to construct a facsimile of what was previously said and then address kermit s offering john redelfs originally wrote jr i learned that a man cannot frustrate justice by repenting on his jr death bed because repentance is more than a feeling of remorse it jr requires faith in christ proven by following him by keeping his jr commandments such cannot be accomplished on ones deathbed tom albrecht responded ta so jesus must have lied to the thief on the cross john redelfs wrote back that jr paradise and salvation are not the same thing salvation is better jr refer to john i responded to john that rw i don t see the effort to equate salvation with paradise rw rw rather i see implied the fact that only those who are saved rw may enter paradise to which kermit wrote kt incomplete reference kt kt see also the discussion did jesus go into hell in the biblestudy group kt for the arguments that paradise and hell sheol are places after death kt the discussion no lds were involved as far as i could see argued using kt standard christian argument from the bible that pretty much support the kt lds position kt kt christ went to paridise after his death and burial kt kt he taught the prisoners and freed them from darkness kt kt when he was resurrected he had not yet ascended to his father kt kt the arguement centered around what was or wasn t the proper biblical kt terms for those places i respond the question that was raised was not if jesus went to infernal paradise before entering into heaven no one has made a point for or against that issue nor have they compared the lds position against orthodox belief the infernal paradise is held to be abraham s bosom luke the place of the righteous dead in sheol equivalent to hades the point that was raised by john was that someone could not repent on their death bed tom albrecht pointed to a biblical example that was contradictory to what john s position put forward the thief on the cross was promised by christ to be with him in paradise the abode of the righteous dead john s position possibly needs to be reworked kermit needs to address the topic at hand robert weiss psyrobtw ubvms cc buffalo edu
talk.religion.misc	re davidians and compassion in article apr ra royalroads ca mlee post royalroads ca malcolm lee wrote do you judge all christians by the acts of those who would call themselves christian and yet are not the bd s contradicted scripture in their actions they were not christian simple as that perhaps you have read too much into what the media has portrayed ask any true believing christian and you will find that they will deny any association with the bd s even the th day adventists have denied any further ties with this cult which was what they were well if they were satanists or followers of an obscure religion then i would be sure that christians would in unison condemn and make this to a show case but when we are dealing with a fanatical revelation preacher that kills ultimately everyone including the innocent children then it seems that we are dealing with christians and christians note the spelling do you judge all muslims by the acts committed by saddam hussein a supposedly devout muslim i don t saddam is just a dictator using the religious beliefs of his people to further his own ends and does not this show the dangers with religion in order word a mind virus that will make mothers capable of letting their small children burn to ashes while they scream cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re davidians and compassion in article c slas b blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee wrote in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes so we have this highly christian religious order that put fire on their house killing most of the people inside we have no way to know that the cultists burned the house it could have been the batf and fbi we only have the government s word for it after all and people who started it by a no knock search with concussion grenades are hardly disinterested observers well looking at the videos it seems that this fire started in various places at the same time which would indicate that this was a planned action i m sure fbi and batf didn t deliberately start a possible fire having a sniper kill korresh would have been a far easier method looking at the careful operation and use of tear gas that as i know don t start fires it is less likely that this was the case sorry but my bets are on fanatical people keen to start armageddon theirs cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re davidians and compassion in article c slas b blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee wrote in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes so we have this highly christian religious order that put fire on their house killing most of the people inside we have no way to know that the cultists burned the house it could have been the batf and fbi we only have the government s word for it after all and people who started it by a no knock search with concussion grenades are hardly disinterested observers there s another point to be made those who have been inside burning houses know that if they want to stay alive it s better to run out from the building we had one case where an fbi agent had to drag out a women from the burning house she run back in when she saw the forces arriving it is a good indication of the fanatical mind that the followers had including having they children burned instead of saving these innocent victims of the instance cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re a kind and loving god in article apr ra royalroads ca mlee post royalroads ca malcolm lee wrote i understand and sympathize with your pain what happened in waco was a very sad tradgedy don t take it out on us christians though the branch davidians were not an organized religion they were a cult led by a ego maniac cult leader the christian faith stands only on the shoulders of one man the lord of lords and king of kings jesus christ btw david koresh was not jesus christ as he claimed the interesting notion is that i watched tv tonight koresh never claimed officially to be jesus christ his believers hoped that he would be but he never took this standpoint himself he was more interested in breaking the seven seals of revelation and make sure that armageddon would start well it did and children died and no god saved them kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re that kill by sword must be killed by sword in article apr utarlg uta edu b zaw utarlg uta edu stephen wrote tional as that is for so many one direct benefit is being able to keep things in perspective ks such as who hurts more the ones who died or the loved ones who are left besides the lessons it s also time for many to grieve including those who ve lost their faith in others or in god i m learning to be patient and let things heal god willing christians through ages have had to learn to be patient i do think it s time to face the reality the events during the last two days showed what the world is really like kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re o t o clarification in article cup portal com thyagi cup portal com thyagi morgoth nagasiva wrote they are considered different and largely unrelated by a number of sources i ve seen documentation which links them through the figure of h spencer lewis lewis was apparently involved with reuss who was the o h o of ordo templi orientis for many years apparently it is also true that lewis had a charter to form an o t o body and then created a m o r c as a subsidiary an interesting question if anyone is interested in the history of amorc i do think spencer lewis published books about the beginning and his mission the alexandria bookstore that s the name of the book store operated by amorc should have a selection that should provide the interested reader more insight cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	a treatise on the miracles of muhammad part droplet vol no part d r o p l e t from the vast ocean of the miraculous qur an translations from the arabic and turkish writings of bediuzzaman said nursi the risale i noor vol no part nineteenth letter mu jizat i ahmediye risalesi a treatise on the miracles of muhammed saw part continued from droplet vol no part third sign the miracles of muhammad saw are extremely varied because his messengership is universal he has been distinguished by miracles that relate to almost all species of creation just as the supreme aide of a renowned ruler arriving with many gifts in a city where various people live will be welcomed by a representative of each people who acclaims him and bids him welcome in his own language so too when the supreme messenger of the monarch of pre and post eternity ezel and ebed sultani honored the universe by coming as an envoy to the inhabitants of the earth and brought with him the light of truth and spiritual gifts sent by the creator of the universe and derived from the realities of the whole universe each species of creation from water rocks trees animals and human beings to the moon sun and stars welcomed him and acclaimed his prophethood each in its own language and each bearing one of his miracles now it would require a voluminous work to mention all his miracles as the punctilious scholars have written many volumes concerning the proofs of his prophethood here we will briefly point out only the general category into which fall fhe miracles that are definite and accepted as accurate reports the evidences of the prophethood of muhammad saw fall into two main categories the first is called irhasat and includes the paranormal events that happened at the time of his birth or before his declaration of prophethood the second group pertains to all the remaining evidences of the prophethood and contains two subdivisions those wonders that were manifested after his departure from this world in order to confirm his prophethood and those that he exhibited during the era of his prophethood the latter has also two parts the evidences of his prophethood that became manifest in his own personality his inner and outer being his moral conduct and perfection and the miracles that related to substantial matters the last part again has two branches those concerning the qur an and spirituality and those relating to matter and creation this last branch is again divided into two categories the first involves the paranormal happenings that occured during his mission either to break the stubbornness of the unbelievers or to augment the faith of the belivers this category has twenty different sorts such as the splitting of the moon the flowing of water from the fingers the satisfying of large numbers with a little food and the speaking of trees rocks and animals each of these sons has also many instances and thus has in meaning the strength of confirmation by consensus as for the second category this includes events lying in the future that occured as he had predicted upon allah swt s instructions now starting from the last category we will summarize a list of them unfonunately i could not write as i had intended without choice i wrote as my head dictated and i could not completely conform to the order of this classification to be continued allah willing irfan alan a servant of islam
talk.religion.misc	re christians above the law was clarification of personal position in article apr rchland ibm com xzz rchland vnet ibm com r j traff writes in article c muiw aqc mailer cc fsu edu dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu darius lecointe writes question is on what authority do we proclaim that the requirements of the fourth commandment are no longer relevant to modern christians please i don t believe most christians believe they are above the law however we are not saved by adherence to the law the law exists to tell us what is sinful we all sin hence we are all above the law where all in this case refers to christians jews believe that their sins are atoned for with blood sacrifice of animals as described in the old testament when was the last time you heard about a jewish animal sacrifice christians believe that their sins are atoned for by the blood sacrifice of jesus the blood sacrifice of an innocent man this does not make the law irrelevant then why don t christians follow it why don t they even follow their own ten commandments breaking the law is sinful and we are to avoid sinful ways but sinning by itself does not jeopardize salvation so in short hitler is in heaven and gandhi is in hell note that i m not a theologian but this is the gist of several sermons i ve heard lately and some bible studies i ve been through did you ever wonder if someone perhaps a great deceiver was pulling your leg
talk.religion.misc	re merlin mithras and magick kosinski us oracle com kevin osinski writes i recall reading in michael rutherford s novel sarum a scene in which the son of a roman nobleman living in britain takes part in a secret ceremony involving a bull he stands naked in a pit covered with some sort of scaffolding while assistants coax a bull to stand on the scaffolding they then fatally stab the bull which douses the worshipper in the pit with blood this is supposedly some sort of rite of passage for members of the bull cult i wonder if this is related to the mithras cult i don t know where rutherford got his information for this chapter the book is historical fiction and most of the general events which take place are largely based on historical accounts there is a rite like this described in joseph campbell s occidental mythology he also described levels of initiation i think i don t know where campbell got his info but i remember thinking he was being a little eclectic i also wonder what if any connection there is between the ancient bull cults and the current practice of bullfighting popular in some mediterranean cultures quite a bit if you haven t read campbell give him a try larry caldwell caldwell ohsu edu compuserve oregon health sciences university
talk.religion.misc	davidians and compassion so we have this highly christian religious order that put fire on their house killing most of the people inside i m not that annoyed about the adults they knew supposedly what they were doing and it s their own actions what i mostly are angry about is the fact that the people inside including mothers let the children suffer and die during awful conditions if this is considered religious following to the end i m proud that i don t follow such fanatical and non compassionate religions you might want to die for whatever purpose but please spare the innocent young ones that has nothing to do with this all i have a hard time just now understanding that christianity knows about the word compassion christians do you think the actions today would produce a good picture of your religion kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re a kind and loving god in article apr ra royalroads ca mlee post royalroads ca malcolm lee wrote it is true what you stated above jesus saving grace is available to everyone not just jews in other words everyone can have salvation but not everyone will this option is now open to people other than just jews of course if the jews don t accept the deity of christ i would hardly expect them to accept anything that christ said but i don t feel any animosity towards them even though they persecuted jesus and his disciples and eventually crucified him i bear them no ill will if anything i feel pity for them jesus had to die to pay the price for our sins and so the jews were merely fulfilling prophesy jesus knew he had to die even before he began his ministry that demonstrates the great depth of his love for us jesus certainly demonstrated the great depth of his love for the children who died today at the davidian complex sorry but the events today made me even more negative concering organized religion cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re rfd misc taoism sunlight shining off of the ocean aleph null bottles of beer on the wall aleph null bottles of beer take one down pass it around aleph null bottles of beer on the wall
talk.religion.misc	to rob lanphier dear rob when i read brian k s postings i find someone who is honestly seeking the truth when i read your response here i see condescension when you reply to a post reply to the post you quote this statement undermines any good points you might have had it was enough to make me stop reading sometimes i do come across condesending and i am sorry i come across that way at times thank you for the reproach i really do appreciate it i ll try to get better rob at the same time i have also learned that some people respond to the gentle approach while others respond only at a harsh rebuke brian k so far only responds to the latter and i am glad he responds at all in both cases of approach my intention is to be loving i am making no excuse for myself if i am coming across condesending i apologize for that rob sometimes brian k comes across as honest i know this but brian k vasillates back and forth one post looks honest the next is an excuse now he wants me to explain the universe in words or less i think brian kendig is really trying but he is too comfortable with his set of excuses i just want brian k to be honest with himself if he really wants to know he will ask questions and stop asserting irrelevant excuses which have nothing to do with my god i wish brian would read the bible for himself and come to his own decisions without being sidetracked with the temptation to mock god from my perspective rob when i look at brian kendig i see a man standing out in the middle of a highway off into the distance i see a mack truck heading right for him but brian k is faced away from the oncoming truck he doesn t see it here s is how i see the dialog me brian k please step aside before you get run over bk there is no truck me turn around at look bk no me look you will be healthier if you do take a look at the oncoming truck bk no explain to me why trucks exist me turn around or you will run over bk no i won t because i like hiking and tomorrow is tuesday me you blind fool why do you choose ignorance you have nothing to lose if you look but if do not look you will certainly lose your life i do not want to see you squashed all over the road bk it is my life to lose i rather not look besides a truck running over me will not harm me and by the way i really have an open mind so is my motivation to belittle brian or to love brian the best i know how i do not wish to single brian kendig out because millions if not billions of people fall into the same category perhaps all people fall have fallen into this category at one time in their lives i have i can now see the truck behind brian my hope is that brian will look and will see the ramifications of the truck coming towards him my hope is that brian will want to step out of the way my fear though is that brian will instead choose to glue himself to the middle of the highway where he will certainly get run over but if he so chooses he so chooses and there is nothing i can do beyond that to change his mind for it is his choice but at this very moment brian hasn t gotten even that far he is still at the point where he does not want to look sure he moves his eyeball to appease me but his head will not turn around to see the entire picture so far he is satisfied with his glimpse of the mountains off in the distance thank you again rob for your reproach i really do appreciate it my wife tells me the same thing at times i will try to do better
talk.religion.misc	re is it good that jesus died jim burhill writes would you consider the word of an eye witness peter to testify to the events surrounding jesus life no there are two problems here brian kendig writes peter died two millenia ago the original letters he wrote have long since decayed into dust if he were alive today and i could do you question the existence of alexander the great tilgrath pilisar iii nero caligula josephus cyrus the great artexerxes their documents have decayed to dust too brian why another excuse even if peter did witness the miracles of jesus two millenia ago that doesn t mean that your deity is what the bible says it is god might just be satan trying to convince everyone that he s a nice guy or even that your deity is still alive and active in the world today peter wrote a bit of the bible what peter says about god is what the bible says consider the bible a court recording over the period of thousands of years various people come up and testify of their experience with the living god up comes abraham the wealthy rancher up comes moses once the high official of egypt up comes elijah a priest up comes david a mere shepherd who became king up comes the pagan king nebuchanezzar up comes the pagan king of persia cyrus up comes nehemiah cupbearer to the king of persia then matthew an irs agent takes the stand up comes luke an m d then paul a jew who use to kill christians for fun up comes john a year old boy up comes peter a fishermen up comes james the brother of jesus himself up comes hundreds of others you hear testimony from fishermen irs agents priests kings the court hearing lasts thousands of years with people coming up and testifying about the god who calls himself i am while you are listening to all this stuff you realize that king david could have never known john solomon could have never known matthew nehemiah could have never known peter you realize that all these people are independent witnesses and so you rule out collaboration yet all of the witnesses tell of the same god each testifier tells of his own experiences with the living god each experience is different but each experience has enough cross over to unmistakenly reveal that each one of these people is talking about the very same god what daniel did not know about god the rd highest official of babylon god revealed to john years later but with a different perspective no two testimonies are identical each testimony dares to venture off what is already known yet each witness s testimony even though different from those prior consistently describes harmoniously fitting facets of the character of the same god now as we stare gazing at the computer you got this seeming fanatic on the other end of the net saying i know this god i am he has revealed himself to me too he also calls himself jesus john please believe me i am telling the truth it is wonderful to know him are you going to just pass off all this testimony as fictiousness are you going to call three thousand years worth of testimony from shepherds to irs agents to royal officials to kings to computer programmers fiction with a scoff of your keyboard with near complete ignorance of the testimonies are you going to say that that is all complete hooey would that not be the most audacious display of arrogance do you actually think you know better than king solomon king david or even abraham lincolnr
talk.religion.misc	re disillusioned protestant finds christ in article qmhp t usenet ins cwru edu cj cleveland freenet edu john w redelfs writes in a previous article tom tredysvr tredydev unisys com tom albrecht says in article qb j d usenet ins cwru edu cj cleveland freenet edu john w redelfs writes i learned that god loves his children who have never heard of him and has a plan for redeeming them too even those who have died without a knowledge of christ i learned that a man cannot frustrate justice by repenting on his death bed because repentance is more than a feeling of remorse it requires faith in christ proven by following him by keeping his commandments such cannot be accomplished on ones deathbed so jesus must have lied to the thief on the cross paradise and salvation are not the same thing salvation is better refer to john i don t see the effort to equate salvation with paradise rather i see implied the fact that only those who are saved may enter paradise robert weiss psyrobtw ubvms cc buffalo edu
talk.religion.misc	re abortion and private health insurance in qid s ik agate berkeley edu dzkriz ocf berkeley edu dennis kriz writes i recently have become aware that my health insurance includes coverage for abortion i strongly oppose abortion for reasons of conscience it disturbs me deeply to know that my premiums may be being used to pay for that which i sincerely believe is murder i would like to request that i be exempted from abortion coverage with my health premiums reduced accordingly i share dennis s outrage over a similar manner i have recently become aware that my health insurance includes coverage for illness and injuries suffered by christians it disturbs me deeply to know that my premiums may be used to pay for that which i sincerely believe is divine punishment for their sinful conduct in addition these folks are able to avail themselves of such alternative therapies as lourdes fatima morris cerullo benny hinn etc in any case as jesus saves i feel that there is no reason for them to be covering their bets at my expense i would like to request that i be exempted from christian coverage with my health premiums reduced accordingly jack carroll
talk.religion.misc	is it good that jesus died brian lpl arizona edu brian ceccarelli writes brian kendig writes if you can explain to me why the death of jesus was a good thing then i would be very glad to hear it and you might even convert me be warned however that i ve heard all the most common arguments before and they just don t convince me ask jesus himself he himself said why in john it isn t a mystery to anyone and there certainly is no need for a persuasive argument read jesus s own reply to your question john most assuredly i say to you unless a grain of wheat falls onto the ground and dies it remains alone but if it dies it produces much grain he who loves his life will lose it and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life if anyone serves me let him follow me and where i am there my servant will be also if anyone serves me him my father will honor why would i want an eternal life if i hate this one if we were created by a deity why would that deity not wish us to enjoy what he has given us why would i want to live forever the challenge in my life is that i will die and that i must give my life the meaning i wish it to have before that happens my time is here and will someday pass i will be content to live on in the memories of my friends and once they too are dead then i will no longer have any reason to exist in short even if your deity does exist that doesn t automatically mean that i would worship it i am content to live my own life and fend for myself so when i die i can be proud of the fact that no matter where i end up it will be because of my actions and my choices if your god decides to toss me into a flaming pit for this then so be it i would much rather just cease to exist but if your god wants my respect and my obedience then it had better earn these and if it does then they will be very strong and true jesus gives more reasons in john but one obvious reason why jesus died and as with everything else it has nothing do with his punishment was that he could rise to life again so that we would stop doubting and believe john the fact that jesus rose from the dead is my hope that i too will rise from the dead it is an obvious point do not overlook it without this obvious point i would have no hope and my faith would be vanity jesus wasn t the only one who rose from the dead i think it was osiris who did the same as well as a few characters from greek or norse legend if memory serves but still why would i want to rise from the dead why do you want to why did jesus suffer in his death again ask jesus jesus says why in john that s no mystery either the world hates him without reason it is a direct proclamation of how far we humans botch things up and thus how much we need a saviour if your god wants to win my devotion then it knows what it can do provide some way for me to believe without having to resort to blind faith that could be applied equally well to any religion and why can t you brian k accept this how can you the world cannot accept him because it neither sees him nor knows him john that s precisely it i neither see nor know zeus either nor odin shall i offer them the same devotion i offer jesus the animosity and the lack of knowledge that comes out in your twistings of robert s daily verses is very convincing testimony of the truth of john and you ve got to understand my point of view i see christians spouting bible verse all the time as if it were some sort of magic spell that will level all opposition truth is it s not robert has never demonstrated that he actually understands what the verses imply he just rattles them off day by day some brazenly fly in the face of common sense and reality and i point these out where i can but even more than that even when christians do try to explain the verses in their own words they do so from a christian point of view which is that every human being would want to be a christian if only he or she understood the christian message properly and then all strife and suffering on the earth would end here s the problem with that substitute moslem or buddhist or satanist instead of christian and it means the same thing christanity is a very nice belief set around a very nice book but if you want to make me believe that it has any bearing on the real world you ve got some convincing to do i pray and hope that i do blurt out such animosity and lack of knowledge i am not perfect either but regardless of that i thank god that jesus revealed himself to me without whom i d also be bumbling about blindly though arrogantly slandering the very person who created me and who loves me and in my opinion you re bumbling about blindly making up entities where there aren t any and depriving yourself of a true understanding and enjoyment of your life as long as you keep your beliefs to yourself i ll keep my beliefs to myself but as soon as you start waving them around expect me to toss in my opinions too brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun bskendig netcom com de ceux que j ai vus j ose croire n etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent the meaning of life si je ne vaux pas mieux au moins je suis autre is that it ends rousseau
talk.religion.misc	re language and agreement i responded to jim s other articles today but i see that i neglected to respond to this one i wouldn t want him to think me a hypocrite for not responding to every stupid article on t r m m mwunix mitre org james meritt writes from my handy dictionary dictionary definitions of not disagree and agree deleted please operationally differentiate between not disagree and agree oh but i m weary of trying to wade through jim s repertoire of red herrings and smoke screens let s see what we get when we run all four articles posted by jim today through the discord filter a markov chain program that steve lamont was kind enough to send me taking action a white geese be held as an accomplice to be held as a decision upon the door a black and white goose waddles past the eyes of the door hits it with the confidence interval for that individual is held responsible for that that individual may be held as a getaway car may be held as an uncountably large number of the driver of something and agree a black goose waddles past the person imprisoned white goose waddles past the confidence interval for the population of geese be axed fine and white goose waddles past the door does running jim s articles through discord make them more coherent less coherent or has discord turned jim s articles into an angst ridden poem about making choices in a world filled with uncertainty yet being held responsible for the choices we make do the geese symbolize an inner frustration with ambiguity a desire that everything be black and white with no shades of gray does the getaway car tell us that to try to renounce the existential nature of our being is not to get away from responsibility for our actions but rather to take the role of the passive accomplice the driver of the getaway car as it were does the juxtaposition of man and machine car and driver reveal a subtext an internal conflict between determinism and moral responsibility or am i reading too much into a collaboration between jim and a random number generator dj
talk.religion.misc	re catholic lit crit of a s s in apr mtechca maintech com foster mtechca maintech com writes i am surprised and saddened i would expect this kind of behavior from the evangelical born again gospel thumping in your face we re the only true christian protestants but i have always thought that catholics behaved better than this please do not stoop to the level of the e b a g t i y f w t o t c protestants who think that the best way to witness is to be strident intrusive loud insulting and overbearingly self righteous pleading mode on please i m begging you quit confusing religious groups and stop making generalizations i m a protestant i m an evangelical i don t believe that my way is the only way i m not a creation scientist i don t think that homosexuals should be hung by their toenails if you want to discuss bible thumpers you would be better off singling out and making obtuse generalizations about fundamentalists if you compared the actions of presbyterians or methodists with those of southern baptists you would think that they were different religions please prejudice is about thinking that all people of a group are the same so please don t write off all protestants or all evangelicals pleading mode off god i wish i could get ahold of all the thomas stories fbzr enval jvagre fhaqnlf jura gurer f n yvggyr oberqbz lbh fubhyq nyjnlf pneel n tha abg gb fubbg lbhefrys ohg gb xabj rknpgyl gung lbh er nyjnlf znxvat n pubvpr yvan jregzhyyre jemaleddin sasha david cole iv chief of knobbery research dlphknob camelot bradley edu
talk.religion.misc	lds gordon s question on the nicene creed gordon banks quoted and added gb in article c m p eoz acsu buffalo edu gb psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu robert weiss writes gb gb gb christians have professed for more than years the nicene gb creed a statement of beliefs drawn from the truths of scripture gb that was officially accepted by a council of church bishops gb and leaders at nicea in a d christians still recite gb this creed regularly in public worship gb gb gb so prior to ad there were no christians or all of them really gb believed the nicean creed even before it was formulated do you gb really believe such an absurdity i m afraid you do no i really don t honest the nicene creed as i mentioned above is a brief statement of beliefs that are derived from scripture that this certain list did not exist earlier does not indicate that the beliefs summarized in in did not exist before the formula was derived robert weiss psyrobtw ubvms cc buffalo edu
talk.religion.misc	re alt sex stories under literary critical analysis in article qevbh h v agate berkeley edu dzkriz ocf berkeley edu dennis kriz writes hi all i m going to try to do something here that perhaps many would not have thought even possible i want to begin the process of initiating a literary critical study of the pornography posted on alt sex stories to identify the major themes and motifs present in the stories posted there opening up then the possibility of an objective moral evaluation of the material present there first off let me congratulate you for not posting a flame about you sick perverts you are immoral you are all going to hell which seems to be the usual religious post found on the alt sex hierarchy hopefully you won t get flamed either you will however be argued with i personally think that your project is built on unsteady ground first i do not believe that there is any way to find an objective morality morality and value are inherently subjective they represent the beliefs of a person or a group of people they can be widely held perhaps even overwhelmingly held but they are never and can never be objective assumptions a christian bedrock assumption that all that is true comes truly from god regarding alt sex stories while perhaps even from an objective standpoint the majority of its material is indeed repugnant you come to this conclusion quite quickly when you start thinking about analyzing its material like this some of it reflects some fairly profound needs in people as well as some truths and deserve to be pointed out second i do not accept the assumptions that you make here if as you say you are trying to be objective then why accept a morality to begin with by using the christian bible you re defeating your own purpose by doing so in the long run the advantage of making such a literary moral analysis is that it will save band width between christians and non mutually flaming each other about the moral acceptability of the stuff on these pornographic groups third call me a pessimist but you won t stop the flamage there will always be people who pop upin alt sex to tell us how sick and twisted and evil we all are just out of curiosity do alt sex readers show up unprovoked in the religion groups to tell you all that you are narrow minded censoring overbearing totalitarianists basically there should not be a dissonance between a christian morality and a non christian one either there is value in a particular work or there is not whether one is a christian or not hm let me provide an example four people get together over dinner to discuss morality you me a rather conservative moslem and a sociopath i start off by saying that i think it s immoral to force people to have sex with you you agree but also say that it is immoral to have sex with someone of your own gender just a note i really don t know your views on homosexuality i am just using this as a common view of morality for the purposes of this example the moslem says that it is immoral for women to have their faces uncovered the sociopath who has become bored kills all three of us and eats us but feels no guilt because he has done nothing wrong morally in his own mind in support for the first assumption the christian scriptures say this evidence deleted i m not going to accept your evidence for this you ask us to accept the word of god that everything good comes from god this is only a valid argument for a person who shares your beliefs still i must say that cataloging the major themes and motifs in erotica could be interesting for other reasons than yours so good luck with this next part now then what are some of the major themes motifs in the pornographic literature on places like alt sex stories these are some that i ve been able to identify please add comment on them motif the male cinderella in so many of the stories there is expressed a feeling of alienation and worthlessness on the part of the writer or otherwise protagonist of the story with regard to the object the other person of his her desire often a story involves a protagonist who on the surface is quite average but underneath usually has an enormous dick who desires to in some way to gain access in a definitely sexual way to the other person who he she confesses is far more desireable than he she is and who indeed seems to walk between the rain drops hmmm do i detect just a wee bit of condescence here motif a celebration of indeed preoccupation with beauty not very objective the vast majority of pornographic literature deals with beauty be it innocence somehow about to be lost grace or simply physical beauty and generally most people christian or non will say that beauty is good one could construe this to mean that beautiful people are better or more good than non beautiful people i would hope that people relize that this is not necessarily true motif one s dick is one s instrument of redemption might i suggest the word penis it seems more in line with the tone of your post blessed are those who are well hung for they shall get laid from what would thus be a revised matthew bravo i respect you and your sense of humor sir motif sex as an expression of sincere giving there is often enough a clear desire on the part of the protagonist to give definitely sexual pleasure to the object person of his her desires yes and this theme is usually what the better stories are about however they are not always selfish i could point to examples in the work of elf sternberg for example motif alt sex stories describes a sex which is completely removed from the realm of transmitting life so removed is sex from its procreative dimension on alt sex stories that one begins to wonder why sex even involves ejaculation as in the context described in pornography it serves then no real purpose it serves the same purpose as it does in pornographic movies it affirms the virility of the male involved as well as assuring the reader that he the character has orgasmed the whole picture tm is probably very well described by the catholic teaching on this of the husband and wife in an act of total mutual self giving in the sexual union cooperating with god in opening themselves up for the transmission of new life cf humane vitae your whole picture tm unfortunately only applies to people who accept your church in addition if sex is for procreation then why did god make it pleasurable so that people would want to do it rather than building it in as instinct why did god make it fallible not every sexual encounter results in pregnancy even among catholics does this mean that they have sinned in any case alt sex stories and the catholic teaching will probably not see eye to eye on this for a long time granted motif sex used as an instrument violence power and humiliation why pornography seems to tend in that direction i really do not know probably volumes could be written on the relationships between sex and power humiliation but this probably gives good reason why traditionally judeo christianity has been so negative with regard to sexuality it seems to tend to a great moral morass pornography would not tend in those directions if there were not a demand for it many people have violent fantasies that they would never act out in real life but will think about and read about and mull over later jeff jeffj yang earlham edu official generic sig under lines under columns no amiga checks no witty quotes no maps of australia no asterisks no ascii art no disclaimers or anti flame requests and one spelling errer
talk.religion.misc	re a kind and loving god in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes in article apr ra royalroads ca mlee post royalroads ca malcolm lee wrote these laws written for the israelites remember these laws were written for a different time and applied only to god s chosen people but jesus has changed all of that we are living in the age of grace sin is no longer immediately punishable by death there is repentance and there is salvation through our lord jesus christ and not just for a few chosen people salvation is available to everyone jew and gentile alike jews won t agree with you malcolm which jews ks ex as a people as a language religiously politically or do you mean those jews who are god s chosen and malcolm please if you will set your word wrap at or less to avoid clutter j stephen
talk.religion.misc	re a kind and loving god in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes in article apr ra royalroads ca mlee post royalroads ca malcolm lee wrote these laws written for the israelites god s chosen people whom god had expressly set apart from the rest of the world the israelites were a direct witness to god s existence to disobey god after knowing that god is real would be an outright denial of god and therefore immediately punishable remember these laws were written for a different time and applied only to god s chosen people but jesus has changed all of that we are living in the age of grace sin is no longer immediately punishable by death there is repentance and there is salvation through our lord jesus christ and not just for a few chosen people salvation is available to everyone jew and gentile alike jews won t agree with you malcolm cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net a lot of people won t agree with me that s their right and i respect that however to the point jews are also covered by the saving grace of jesus christ there are jews who have become christians this brings up another question i still have to ponder why is there so much anti semitism why do people hate jews i don t hate jews i consider them to be like anyone else sinners we all are
talk.religion.misc	re silence is concurance in article blue cis pitt edu joslin pogo isp pitt edu david joslin writes for those missing the context of this thrilling discussion between jim and i jim wrote the following to me in e mail after i pointed out hate to shatter your self image of perfection that you appear to hold but your language is wrong jim and me i pointed out that i did in fact agree that both robert weiss and jim meritt took quotes out of context hence i find it difficult to understand why jim thinks i am a hypocrite needless to say i don t have time to reply to every article on t r m that takes a quote out of context of course not just the ones you disagree with q e d so according to you jim the only way to criticize one person for taking a quote out of context without being a hypocrite is to post a response to every person on t r m who takes a quote out of context jim replied by saying did i either ask or assert that but today we find four articles from jim one of which has the subject so as of then and pointing out a specific instance wrongo again is it not the case that in the eyes of the law when someone is aware of something and has the capability of taking action and does not that individual may be held responsible for that action which is of course a complete red herring taking quotes out of context isn t a crime i don t have time to read every article on t r m and i m certainly under no obligation to reply to them all so check the newsgroups does silence is concurrence imply that jim thinks that because i didn t respond to weiss articles i must condone weiss taking quotes out of context jim doesn t want to give a direct answer to this question read what he has written and decide for yourself telepathy again you claim to know what i want but back to the context of my conversation with jim jim s next gambit was to claim that he was using inductive logic when he concluded that i was being a hypocrite i challenged him to provide the details of that logic that led him to an incorrect conclusion no you asked specifically what was wrong with yours today we find another obscure article posting it twice didn t help maybe to the ignorant i accept your classification more red herrings could jim mean that he has read an uncountably large number of my articles do you know what uncountably large means it does not appear so could jim mean that because i axed his articles but not weiss articles he wants to conclude inductively well i can t see where he is going with this i am not suprised but i can help him with his induction i ve written roughly that does not appear to be the case the appearance of your argument is more like that captain kirk would have gotten from mr spock written by a stagehand at paramount think hard about this jim see the pattern think harder run it through your induction engine and see what pops out of course you appear arrogant so i already had figured that out
talk.religion.misc	re lds gordon s question on the nicene creed the nicene creed we believe in one god the father almighty maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible and in one lord jesus christ the only begotten son of god begotten of the father before all worlds god of god light of light very god of very god begotten not made being of one substance with the father by whom all things were made who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate by the holy spirit of the virgin mary and was made man and was crucified also for us under pontius pilate he suffered and was buried and the third day rose again according to the scriptur es and ascended into heaven and sitteth on the right hand of the father and he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead whose kingdom shall have no end and we believe in the holy spirit the lord and giver of life who proceedeth from the father and the son who with the father and the son together is worshipped and glorified who spoke by the prophets and we believe in one holy and apostolic church we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins and we look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come amen
talk.religion.misc	re christian meta ethics in article c jzz g panix com mls panix com michael siemon writes well the whole point of making these the base commandments is that they aren t reducible to rules a set of rules is a moral code or a law code or an algorithm for acting such things can be very helpful to individuals or societies but not if they are used instead of a personal involvement in and responsibility for one s actions the two commandments are rules they are merely rules that are so vague that they are practically devoid of meaning michael siemon acknowledges this every time he writes that the resolution of an argument over them turns on secular and cultural assumptions that are independent of these rules the great commandment is more than anything else a call to act as if you were god and accepting ultimate responsibility in your every action the commandment to love your neighbor as yourself can be viewed in part as reminding man that he is not god and cannot act as if he has ultimate responsibility indeed many traditions present an interpretation where believers are supposed to interpret loving one s neighbor as following various other rules and relying on their god to make things come out right precisely because it would be wrong for man to assume such ultimate responsibility once again we are confronted with good sounding goo that means whatever the reader wants it to mean conservatives may twist this act as if you were god to mean lay down rules for other people and be as nasty to them as possible if they don t keep your rules they are so insistent and obvious about this that they have convinced a lot of people who rightly reject the whole concept that such idiocy is how god acts and who is to say that this interpretation is twisted there are many passages in the bible that in their most straightforward reading show the christian god behaving in just this way michael cannot refer to base claims or base commandments to show that such readings are twisted because this divergence in understanding occurs even in trying to interpret the base claims and commandments in addressing conservative christians michael will necessarily draw upon secular and cultural notions that these conservative christians will reject but why should anyone be looking for an ethical system since our society is eager to hand us one or more no matter what we do it may be that we need a principle for the critique of ethical systems in which case i will profer the agapate allelou once again but these base commandments are too vague to serve as a principle for the critique of ethical systems the meaning of these base commandments for any believer derives from the secular and cultural notions that the believer brings to them from how the believer mixes their demands with straightforward readings of other biblical passages from a particular sectarian tradition or from some combination of these things these commandments lack sufficient substance in themself to serve as a basis for criticizing ethical systems what meaning they have comes from the ethical system the believer brings to these commandments and different bodies of christians have from the beginning urged different ethical systems or in some cases none as a result it is bizarre to identify any one of these systems however popular or infamous with christianity christianity does not have a torah it does not have a qu ran specifically christian scripture has very little if anything in the way of commandments so little that the christians who desperately want commandments go mining for them with almost no support the one single thing in the gospels which jesus specifically gives as a commandment to us is love one another jesus explicitly states that this summarizes jewish law which would seem to bring in all of it if we properly understand what it means to love god and love our neighbors there are many parables and teachings the gospels attribute to jesus that are straightforwardly read as ethical commandments the pauline epistles are similarly full if it is not clear that these all come together in a sensible understanding of ethical behavior the problem is not a lack of raw material i am a radical christian only in that i take the gospel seriously no michael the conservative christians also take the gospel seriously what differentiates you is the way you interpret the gospel why don t i and the myriads of other christians like me tell you something about christianity in a sense the wide variety of interpretations does tell us something about christianity it tells us that the new testament authors left a sufficiently vague hodge podge that it can serve as the source text for many vastly different beliefs about the nature of the christian god and about what men should and shouldn t do the irony here is that there is nothing in christianity per se that michael can use to support the cause of lesbians and gays every christian principle he turns to this cause is effective only through the extra christian principles through which michael interprets his religion and the homophobes apply the same christian principles with equal justification to their cause in short it is the extra christian principles that make michael s christianity beneficial and i suspect they would be as beneficial perhaps moreso without being filtered by christian interpretation michael paints a picture of standard american atheism as the rejection of the evil in many conservative christian interpretations of the bible but i think it is even more damaging to christianity to note that the new testament presents such a vague hodge podge of notions about the nature of god and the nature of the good except of course when it is ordered by an interpretation that relies on extraneous principles here i think we should apply a christian parable where a cold drink can have its value and a hot drink can have its value but the lukewarm we should spit out russell
talk.religion.misc	re that kill by sword must be killed by sword in article apr utarlg uta edu b zaw utarlg uta edu stephen writes now that chemical warfare and the use of juggernauts have been used against innocents so likewise are those involved subject to their own judgments the same goes for those who lead others into captivity whether behind strands of barbed wire or webs of deceit yeah innocents people who hoard k worth of high caliber automatic weapons and kill law enforcement agents really fit the bill here the only innocents were the children who were prevented from leaving a burning building by their self appointed messiah following parents a burning started by the davidians such is the patience and faith of the saints so let them continue for the one who rewards them according to what their works shall be comes quickly the evidence continues to mount which all seems to follow step by step quite logically to me j stephen is this subject line a veiled threat against u s government agents or possibly executive office leadership i e clinton i ve considered you a bit of a loon before stephen i guess this pretty much confirms it nice religion you have there the only ones who should be killed are those who don t agree with us sheesh tom hyatt i m a diehard saints fan so i ve thyat sdf lonestar org suffered quite enough thank you arlington tx help i m being repressed m python
talk.religion.misc	re the list of biblical contradictions jim brown wrote deleted i feel that those who use the kjv as a basis for arguing biblical contradictions are either being intellectually dishonest purposefully wanting to show the bible in the worst light possible or they are being mentally lazy and are taking the easy way out either way they leave the theist the option of countering with well that s just the kjv that s not what my xxx version says deleted unfortunately it s not that simple the kjv is preferred by the majority of fundamentalists at least here the second part of your argument fails as well since that statement can be used against any version not just the kjv deleted i ve based my argument on one of the best modern translations available which is based on the work of the leading biblical scholars deleted i would not find this statement to be very useful since it is an appeal to authority and the opposition will just claim that their authorities are better a second tact that local creationists have used is to reply but those scholars are atheists and cannot be believed they will also use this phrase to describe any theologians that they don t agree with deleted gen and the flocks conceived before the rods and brought forth cattle ringstraked speckled and spotted deleted the verse being discussed clearly claims that sympathetic magic works i e placing stripped sticks in the cattle breeding grounds causes stripped and spotted calves to be born and should be attacked on that basis no biologist has ever observed this claimed correlation
talk.religion.misc	re apr god s promise in john in article qknu innbhv shelley u washington edu sieferme stein u washington edu eric sieferman writes in article f vmpxk quack kfu com pharvey quack kfu com paul harvey writes in article bskendigc h o d p netcom com human blood sacrifice martyrdom of an innocent virgin nailed to a wooden pole what is this obsession with male menstruation christian washed in the blood of the lamb mithraist washed in the blood of the bull if anyone in netland is in the process of devising a new religion do not use the lamb or the bull because they have already been reserved please choose another animal preferably one not on the endangered species list how about cockroaches porta wam umd edu what for you say you monkey when you have little fluffy tail like rabbit rabbit tazmanian devil
talk.religion.misc	re oto the ancient order of oriental templars in article cup portal com thyagi cup portal com thyagi morgoth nagasiva writes to all whom it may concern constitution sacrificed to the bandwidth gods im glad i finally have heard exactly what the oto is all about i finally know that i can stop looking content i the knowlege that im not interested it s tough enough listening to all the religions who refer to themselves as the one truth how can i possibly accept it from a magical order we have all the answers and will give them to those who join us and pay dues scary besides answers are easy questions now that s another story rintaw rob napier virginia tech there is no gravity the earth sucks rnapier csugrad cs vt edu all in all i m just another schitz in the hall
talk.religion.misc	rw is robert weiss the only orthodox christian robert you keep making references to orthodox belief and saying things like it is held that cf kermit thread on what exact body of theology are you drawing for what you call orthodox who is that holds that luke meant what you said he meant whenever your personal interpretation of biblical passages is challenged your only response seems to be that one needs merely to look at the bible in order to see the truth but what of those who see biblical things differently from you are we to simply assume that you are the only one who really understands it just curious rick anderson librba byuvm bitnet
talk.religion.misc	re biblical backing of koresh s tape cites enclosed in article r j ie sbctri sbc com netd susie sbc com writes in article apr utarlg uta edu b zaw utarlg uta edu stephen writes for those who think david koresh didn t have a solid structure or sound biblical backing for his hour long tape broadcast i don t think anyone really cares about the solid structure of his sermon it s the deaths he s responsible for that concern most people i assume you have evidence that he was responsible for the deaths koresh was a nut okay again i d like to see some evidence i ll type this very slowly so that you can understand he either set the fire himself or told his followers to do so don t make him out to be a martyr he did not get killed he killed himself once again where s your proof suicide is considered a sin by branch davidians also koresh said over and over again that he was not going to commit suicide furthermore all the cult experts said that he was not suicidal david thibedeau sp one of the cult members said that the fire was started when one of the tanks spraying the tear gas into the facilities knocked over a lantern the evil was inside the compound evidence please all that thou shalt not kill stuff i d like to point out that the bible says do not commit murder the nkj translation mistranslates self defense was never considered murder the reason why they were stockpiling weapons is because they were afraid the government would try something their fears were obviously well founded ray cote there s no government like no government
talk.religion.misc	re biblical backing of koresh s tape cites enclosed in article r u t lm oryx com xcpslf oryx com stephen l favor writes seems to me koresh is yet another messenger that got killed for the message he carried which says nothing about the character of the messenger i reckon we ll have to find out the rest the hard way koresh was killed because he wanted lots of illegal guns i suppose these illegal guns have been found i suppose he was going to kill a bunch of people with them ray cote there s no government like no government
talk.religion.misc	re lds gordon s objections in article c rp k kw acsu buffalo edu psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu robert weiss writes gordon banks quoted and added gb in article c l s d acsu buffalo edu gb psyrobtw ubvmsd cc buffalo edu robert weiss writes gb gb the mormon jesus is the spirit brother of lucifer that jesus is god gb the father s first born spirit child that jesus was begotten on earth gb through natural means not by the holy ghost that he sweat his blood gb for our sins in the garden of gethsemane that his blood cannot gb cleanse from all sin that he is now among many millions of other gb gods that jesus is jehovah and the father is elohim in the ot gb jehovah and elohim are the same that he needed to be saved gb it is true that mormons believe that all spirits including jesus lucifer robert weiss are in the same family it does not mean that jesus was created but rather that lucifer and robert weiss were not i agree that this is a heresy so what the sweating of blood in gethsemene is not a basic mormon doctrine jesus did not perform the atonement in getheseme alone as some anti mormons are trying to teach as far as the unpardonable sin whatever that is it is biblical and not specifically mormon it is also called the sin against the holy ghost most bible scholars other than conservative ones do not believe jehovah and elohim were always the same i m sure you ve heard of the j and the e texts i don t know what you mean by that he needed to be saved jesus jehovah elohim in mormon doctrine jesus was sinless and thus did not need to be saved gordon banks n jxp skepticism is the chastity of the intellect and geb cadre dsl pitt edu it is shameful to surrender it too soon
talk.religion.misc	re biblical backing of koresh s tape cites enclosed cotera woods ulowell edu writes david thibedeau sp one of the cult members said that the fire was started when one of the tanks spraying the tear gas into the facilities knocked over a lantern sort of a mrs o leary s tank theory moooo joe knapp jmk cbvox att com
talk.religion.misc	re a kind and loving god in article r hicinnjfj owl csrv uidaho edu lanph crow csrv uidaho edu rob lanphier writes malcolm lee mlee post royalroads ca wrote in reference to leviticus and deuteronomy these laws written for the israelites god s chosen people whom god had expressly set apart from the rest of the world the israelites were a direct witness to god s existence to disobey god after knowing that god is real would be an outright denial of god and therefore immediately punishable remember these laws were written for a different time and applied only to god s chosen people but jesus has changed all of that we are living in the age of grace sin is no longer immediately punishable by death there is repentance and there is salvation through our lord jesus christ and not just for a few chosen people salvation is available to everyone jew and gentile alike hmm for a book that only applied to the israelites deuteronomy jesus sure quoted it a lot mt in addition he alludes to it in several other places mt mk jn and just in case it isn t clear jesus thought the old testament isn t obsolete i ll repeat the verse in matthew which gets quoted on this group a lot do not think that i have come to abolish the law or the prophets i have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them i tell you the truth until heaven and earth disappear not the smallest letter not the least stroke of a pen will by any means disappear from the law until everything is accomplished anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven for i tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the pharisees and the teachers of the law you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven mt niv in pretty red letters so that you know it s jesus talking this causes a serious dilemma for christians who think the old testament doesn t apply to them i think that s why paul harvey likes quoting it so much rob lanphier lanph uidaho edu i will clarify my earlier quote god s laws were originally written for the israelites jesus changed that fact by now making the law applicable to all people not just the jews gentiles could be part of the kingdom of heaven through the saving grace of god i never said that the law was made obsolete by jesus if anything he clarified the law such as in that quote you made in the following verses jesus takes several portions of the law and expounds upon the law giving clearer meaning to what god intended if you ll notice he also reams into the pharisees for mucking up the law with their own contrived interpretations they knew every letter of the law and followed it with their heads but not their hearts that is why he points out that our righteousness must surpass that of the pharisees in order to be accepted into the kingdom of heaven people such as the pharisees are those who really go out of their way to debate about the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin they had become legalistic rule makers religious lawyers who practiced the letter of the law but never really believed in it i think you will agree with me that there are in today s world a lot of modern day pharisees who know the bible from end to end but do not believe in it what good is head knowledge if there is nothing in the heart christianity is not just a set of rules it s a lifestyle that changes one s perspectives and personal conduct and it demands obedience to god s will some people can live by it but many others cannot or will not that is their choice and i have to respect it because god respects it too god be with you malcolm lee
talk.religion.misc	re biblical backing of koresh s tape cites enclosed cotera woods ulowell edu writes once again where s your proof suicide is considered a sin by branch davidians also koresh said over and over again that he was not going to commit suicide furthermore all the cult experts said that he was not suicidal david thibedeau sp one of the cult members said that the fire was started when one of the tanks spraying the tear gas into the facilities knocked over a lantern in two places at once bit of a coincidence that whatever the faults the fbi had the fact is that responsibility for those deaths lies with koresh p moorcockpratchettdenislearydelasoulu iainmbanksneworderheathersbatmanpjorourke clive p a u l m o l o n e y come let us retract the foreskin of misconception james trinity college dublin and apply the wire brush of enlightenment geoffm brownbladerunnersugarcubeselectronicblaylockpowersspikeleekatebushhamcornpizza
talk.religion.misc	re a kind and loving god in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes in article apr ra royalroads ca mlee post royalroads ca malcolm lee wrote i understand and sympathize with your pain what happened in waco was a very sad tradgedy don t take it out on us christians though the branch davidians were not an organized religion they were a cult led by a ego maniac cult leader the christian faith stands only on the shoulders of one man the lord of lords and king of kings jesus christ btw david koresh was not jesus christ as he claimed the interesting notion is that i watched tv tonight koresh never claimed officially to be jesus christ his believers hoped that he would be but he never took this standpoint himself he was more interested in breaking the seven seals of revelation and make sure that armageddon would start well it did and children died and no god saved them kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net and does it not say in scripture that no man knows the hour of his coming not even the angels in heaven but only the father himself dk was trying to play god by breaking the seals himself dk killed himself and as many of his followers as he could btw god did save the children they are in heaven a far better place how do i know by faith god be with you malcolm lee
talk.religion.misc	re he has risen just to remark that i have heard that david koresh has risen from the dead i dont know if it is true or not but this is what i have been told what do you guys think ben l
talk.religion.misc	re merlin mithras and magick caldwell facman ohsu edu larry caldwell writes there evidently was a feast of bread and wine associated with mithras i have often wondered if yeshua intentionally introduced this ritual to expand the appeal of his religion or if it was appropriated by later worshipers you could argue that if you wanted but i think a more reasonable argument would point out the fact that the remembrance feast was very similar to the pesach passover meal during seder a very jewish ritual the fact that there appears to be an abuse in the early church of people eating too much a very real concern with some passover meals and not treating the meal with respect shows the simplifying of the ritual to just bread and wine to be a way of dealing with the inherent problems of people s human nature and trying to keep the essentials of the remembrance aspects david whitten fwva saic com us i don t speak as a company rep
talk.religion.misc	by the sword deuteronmy and when the lord thy god hath delivered it into thine hands thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword joshua and they utterly destroyed all that was in the city bith man and women young and old and ox and sheep and ass with the edge of the sword joshua and the lord delivered lachish into the hand of israel which took it on the second day and smote it with the edge of the sword and all the souls that were therein according to all that he had done to libnah
talk.religion.misc	re who s next mormons and jews john berryhill ph d writes i don t know who s next but i hope it s people who pick their noses while driving umm please don t lump us all together it s those blatant fundamentalist pickers that give the rest of us a bad name some of us try very hard to be discreet and stay alert peter m yadlowsky wake the sky is light academic computing center let us to the net again university of virginia companion keyboard pmy virginia edu after basho
talk.religion.misc	re religion and history the real discuss matthew huntbach writes sm a real christian unless you re born again is a very fundamental biblical sm conversion and regeneration are probably part of some small usa based cult the born again tag often use it to mean very specifically having undergone some sort of ecstatic experience which can in fact be very easily manufactured with a little psychological manipulation and are often insultingly dismissive of those whose christianity is a little more intellectual is not the result some of these cults which seems like a rather dismissive term to me are pretty big here in the usa most of them are quite respectable neiborly do not resemble branch davidians in the least confusing them is a mistake what about live let live folks i m sure we can uncover a few extremist loonies who are catholic the anti abortion movement in the usa seems to have a few hard cases in it for example i ve often heard such people use the line catholics aren t real christians indeed anyone sending missionaries to ireland must certainly be taking this line for otherwise why would they not be content for christianity to be maintained in ireland in its traditional catholic form i have to agree matthew with this i have certainly encountered a lot of anti catholic religion propaganda emotion some bigotry from members of certain religious groups here they also practice their missionary work with zeal among catholics in the united states but to someone who is or was raised catholic such rhetoric is pretty off putting it may work better in an environment where there s a lot of popular anti clericalism follow ups set elsewhere this no longer seems very relevant to celtic issues to me
talk.religion.misc	what we learned from the waco wackos there are actually a few important things we can glean from this mess when they start getting desperate for an answer to the question what s it all about mr natural pinkboys will buy darn near anything which means there s still plenty of to be made in the false jesus business by enterprising subgenii just remember that once you ve separated the pinks from their green don t blow it all on automatic weapons from mexico put it in a swiss bank account smile a lot have your flunkies hand out flowers in airports the con will just shrug you off as long as you never never never start to believe your own bulldada if david koresh hand t started swallowing his own apocalypso now crap he d be working crossword puzzles in the bahamas today instead of contributing to the mulch layer in waco this is because when you start shooting at cops they re likely to shoot back and most of em are better shots than you are in short p t barnum was right and stupidity is self correcting thus endeth the lesson the doge of south st louis dobbs approved media conspirator tm one step beyond sundays to pm fm st louis community radio you ll pay to know what you really think j r bob dobbs
talk.religion.misc	re biblical backing of koresh s tape cites enclosed in article apr woods ulowell edu cotera woods ulowell edu writes in article r j ie sbctri sbc com netd susie sbc com writes in article apr utarlg uta edu b zaw utarlg uta edu stephen writes for those who think david koresh didn t have a solid structure or sound biblical backing for his hour long tape broadcast i don t think anyone really cares about the solid structure of his sermon it s the deaths he s responsible for that concern most people i assume you have evidence that he was responsible for the deaths koresh was a nut okay again i d like to see some evidence nut or not he was clearly a liar he said he would surrender after local radio stations broadcast his message but he didn t then he said he would surrender after passover but he didn t none of which excuses the gross incompetence and disregard for the safety of the children displayed by the feds as someone else pointed out if it had been chelsea clinton in there you would probably have seen more restraint peter
talk.religion.misc	re rosicrucian order s in a previous article sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik says well it depends how you look at it if you are interested i might find out what the latest status is in this legal battle kent please do and if you don t want to post it here email to me i don t know how this discussion is appreciated here i hate invading newsgroups with themes of limited interest tony
talk.religion.misc	re who s next mormons and jews in article r et innh p ctron news ctron com king ctron com john e king writes pmy vivaldi acc virginia edu pete yadlowsky writes didn t christ tell his disciples to arm them selves shortly before his crusifiction i believe the exact quote was along the lines of if you have something sell it and buy a sword this from a guy who preached love deference of power to god and renunciation of worldly life in exchange for a life of the spirit if jesus did in fact command his disciples to arm themselves i would take that as yet another reason to reject christian doctrine for whatever it s worth like most religions the doctrine has good and bad in it i would certainly reject the current implementations of the doctrine no the above is a classic example of taking a scripture out of context it s taken from luke but note vs for i tell you that this which is written must be accomplished in me namely and he will be reckoned with lawless ones he then stated that two swords were enough for the group to carry to be counted as lawless so having more than the politically correct number of weapons was cause to be arresed and killed even then huh jesus overiding message was one of peace turn other cheek live by sword die by sword etc yes of course as in matthew do not suppose that i have come to bring peace to the earth it is not peace i have come to bring but a sword rjl rich loether snail mail university of pittsburgh the ideas email rjl pitt edu computing and info services mine voice epsilon drive all fax pittsburgh pa mine
talk.religion.misc	re jewish history question in article apr csi uottawa ca misrael csi uottawa ca mark israel writes in article cocoac e y netcom com cocoa netcom com little e writes deleted here tis someone just told me that the old testament books were translated into greek a long time ago yes that s a famous version called the septuagint it was a translation made by greek jews and that the originals were destroyed in a fire soon afterward i don t know what you re referring to here when the jersusalem temple was destroyed some manuscripts may have been lost but i think our extant hebrew manuscripts are as good as our greek ones i don t know about any originals the person who was telling me about the septuagint version said that the greeks had a wonderful library in alexandria that was full of manuscripts scrolls and that it was burned soon after the septuagint version was translated perhaps to conceal some changes in the different versions or perhaps just as part of the typical burning of valuable things that occurs during changes in power groups he i dunno so i was just wondering since i imagine some jewish people somewhere must have had copies of the earlier hebrew versions is the hebrew version of the old testament very different from the greek derived version no there are a few famous discrepancies isaiah s prophecy about a young woman was changed into a virgin which was how the new testament writers read it but not many well perhaps this is the answer then deleted if you go to a jewish bookstore you ll get a bible translated by jews so there will be some differences in interpretation but the text they re translating from is basically the same if you want to read the original you can buy an interlinear bible that contains the hebrew old testament and the greek new testament with an english translation written underneath each word if you want a bible with a possibly more original basic text you can try to find a samaritan bible good luck i ve never seen one the samaritans no not the good samaritans have their own version of the books of moses they claim the jewish bible was altered by ezra thanks for the tips now i just have to find someone to teach me samaritan just me little e so is a good samaritan hard to find or is a hard oh finish this yourself chocolatier at arms and castle wetware liason e mail cocoa netcom com voicemail
talk.religion.misc	re info about new age suggestion try exposing the new age by douglas groothuis
talk.religion.misc	re abortion and private health coverage letters regarding in article nyikos milo math scarolina edu nyikos math scarolina edu peter nyikos says in syt br rpi edu rocker acm rpi edu rocker writes in qk q fj agate berkeley edu dzkriz ocf berkeley edu dennis kriz writes if one is paying for a private health insurance plan and does not want abortion coverage there is no reason for that person to be complelled to pay for it just as one should not be compelled to pay for lipposuction coverage if one doesn t want that kind of coverage you appear to be stunningly ignorant of the underlying concept of health insurance are you any less stunningly ignorant have you ever heard of life insurance premiums some companies give in which nonsmokers are charged much smaller premiums than smokers not to mention auto insurance being much cheaper for women under than for men under because women on the average drive more carefully than most men in fact almost as carefully as i did before i was as many people have mentioned there is no reason why insurers could not offer a contract without abortion services for a different premium the problem is that there is no guarantee that this premium would be lower for those who chose this type of contract although you are removing one service that may have feedbacks into other types of covered care which results in a net increase in actuarial costs for an illustrative example in the opposite direction it may be possible to add services to an insurance contract and reduce the premium if you add preventative services and this reduces acute care use then the total premium may fall these words and thoughts are my own i am not bound to swear allegiance to the word of any master where the storm carries me i put into port and make d shea psu myself at home
talk.religion.misc	re a kind and loving god in article r ma innno owl csrv uidaho edu lanph crow csrv uidaho edu rob lanphier writes malcolm lee mlee post royalroads ca wrote do you consider neo nazis and white supremists to be christian i d hardly classify them as christian do they follow the teachings of christ love one another love your neighbour as yourself love your enemies is jesus christ their lord and saviour by the persecution of jews they are violating all the precepts of what christ died for they are in direct violation of the teachings of christ even jesus who was crucified by the jewish leaders of that time loved his enemies by asking the father for forgiveness of their sins i am a christian and i bear no animosity towards jews or any one else the enemy is satan not our fellow man in mark jesus is quoted as saying whoever believes and is baptized will be saved but whoever does not believe will be condemned i consider most neo nazis and white supremisists to be christians because a they say they are b they feel it necessary to justify their actions with the bible where does it say in the bible that christians are supposed to persecute jews isn t it love your enemies instead they may say they are christian but do their actions speak differently do you believe what everyone tells you i don t i came to believe in god by my own investigation and conclusions and ultimately by my own choice salvation however was granted only through the grace of god the bible provides us with no clear definition of what a christian is it tells us what a christian should do but then it goes on to say that as long as you believe your sins will be forgiven to be a christian is to model oneself after jesus christ as implied by the very name christian if you say you believe in your head but do not feel in your heart what does that say of your belief white supremisists and neo nazis may not be your brand of christian but by believing in christ they are christian white supremists and neo nazis are not any brand of christian if you hate your whom you can see then how can you love god whom you cannot see what does this belief entail believing in christ and having your sins forgiven in his name does not give a christian a free licence to sin to repent of a sin is to ask forgiveness of that sin and try not to do it again i am a christian but if you lump me in with racists and accuse me of being such then are you not pre judging me btw i am of chinese racial background and i know what it is to be part of a visible minority in this country i don t think that i would be favourably looked upon by these white supremist christians as you call them anyone can say what they believe but if they don t practice what they preach then their belief is false do you concur now for your original statement what bothers me most is why people who have no religious affiliation continue to persecute jews why this hatred of jews the majority of people who persecute jews are not christians i can t speak for all christians and there are bound to be a few who are on the anti semitism bandwagon you imply here that it is predominately atheists and agnostics who persecute jews i am hard pressed to think of even an example of jewish persecution in the hands of atheists agnostics nazis and racists in general are the ones that come to my immediate attention what i believe is that such people may be using the bible to mask their racial intolerance and bigotry they can do as they do and hide behind christianity but i tell you that jesus would have nothing to do with them about the only one that comes to mind would be in the former soviet union where many religious people suffered some sort of persecution not to mention many atheist agnostics who suffered persecution for believing the government sucked no arguement there rob lanphier lanph uidaho edu the only point i m trying to make is that those who call themselves christian may not be christian i ask that you draw your own conclusions by what they do and what they say if they are not modelled after the example of jesus christ then they are not christian if they have not repented of their sins and accepted jesus christ as their personal lord and saviour then they are not christian these are the only criteria to being a christian may god be with you malcolm lee
talk.religion.misc	re who s next mormons and jews in article r i t transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes just maybe you won t be home then you can come home to something like this well it s been a rough month begins johnnie lawmaster i just get laid off and my divorce became final but i just wasn t ready for what happened this particular monday horror story about fbi ruining a guy s life for the hell of it omitted so if you don t want your tea party to be held in awkward silence make sure your lawyer isn t there there s a good chap so is this a real story or a work of fiction how about some sources when where and in what newspaper did you get all this from or is it all hypothetical david charlap apple ii forever steve wozniac dic hertz njit edu i drank what socrates
talk.religion.misc	re albert sabin in article apr rambo atlanta dg com wpr atlanta dg com bill rawlins writes since you have referred to the messiah i assume you are referring to the new testament please detail your complaints or e mail if you don t want to post first century greek is well known and well understood have you considered josephus the jewish historian who also wrote of jesus in addition the four gospel accounts are very much in harmony bill i find it rather remarkable that you managed to zero in on what is probably the weakest evidence what is probably the most convincing is the anti christian literature put out by the jewish councils in the second century there are enormous quantities of detailed arguments against christianity many of the arguments still being used today despite volumes of tracts attacking christianity not one denies the existance of jesus only of his activities i find this considerably more compelling than josephus or the harmony of the gospels especially considering that matthew and luke probably used mark as a source l warren kurt vonroeschlaub o kv iastate edu iowa state university math department carver hall ames ia j
talk.religion.misc	re christian owned organization list in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu kcochran nyx cs du edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes in article sdcc ucsd edu shopper ucsd edu writes does anyone have or know where i can find a list of christian owned corporations and companies one that i know of is wordperfect i believe that wordperfect is actually owned by the mormons sorry but mormons aren t generally considered to be christians kcochran nyx cs du edu b c d e f g k m r s t tsakc my thoughts my posts my ideas my responsibility my beer my pizza ok do you have some pumps and a purse in this shade a perfume that whispers please come back to me i m looking for something in green laurie morgan
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article qkj c horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article lsr ihinnsa exodus eng sun com emarsh hernes sun eng sun com eric marsh writes in article qjahh mrs horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes science the real world has its basis in values not the other way round as you would wish it if there is no such thing as objective value then science can not objectively be said to be more useful than a kick in the head simple theories with accurate predictions could not objectively be said to be more useful than a set of tarot cards you like those conclusions i don t i think that you are changing the meaning of values here perhaps it is time to backtrack and take a look at the word value n a fair equivalent or return for something such as goods or service monetary or material worth worth as measured in usefulness or importance merit a principle standard or quality considered inherently worthwhile or desirable precise meaning as of a word an assigned or calculated numerical quantity mus the relative duratation of a tone or rest the relative darkness or lightness of a color the distinctive quality of a speech or speech sound in context of a moral system definition four seems to fit best in terms of scientific usage definitions six or eight might apply note that these definitions do not mean the same thing no i m using definition or perhaps in both cases if there is no objective worth usefulness or importance then science has no objective worth usefulness or importance if nothing is inherently worthwhile or desirable then simple theories with accurate predictions are not inherently worthwhile or desirable do you see any flaws in this the problem is your use of the word objective along with values both definitions three and four are inherently subjective that is they are particular to a given individual or personal you see what one person may see as worthwhile another may see as worthless if on the other hand some things have objective worth usefulness or importance it would be interesting to know what they are again your form of measurement in this sentence that being of worth is subjective if you can provide an objective foundation for morality then that will be a good beginning i m not willing to attempt this until someone provides an objective basis for the notion that science is useful worthy or important in dealing with observed facts alternatively you could try to demonstrate to me that science is not necessarily useful worthy or important in any situation in other words i need to know how you use the term objective when i find that my usage of a word is different than the usage of that word given by another person i try to find a standard against which to judge that usage in most cases the dictionary is the standard i use here is a definiton of objective objective adj of or having to do with a material object as distinguished from a mental concept having actual existance a unenfluenced by emotion or personal prejudice b based on observable phenomenon by this definition science does not have an objective worth since the phrase objective worth is an oxymoron however you asked something a little differently this time you asked for an objective basis for a notion the fact that the use of science as an intellectual tool is responsible for changes in our world the changes are material and thus objective would provide an objective basis for an argument however the conclusion arrived at from that argument that science is good is subjective i think that the problem here is one of word usage take a little time and read the definitions of these words objective subjective worth value morality good evil i believe that if you think about the meaning of them for a while you will have to conclude that there is no such thing as an objective morality frank o dwyer i m not hatching that odwyer sse ie from hens by evelyn conlon eric
talk.religion.misc	re christian owned organization list in article a byu edu stephan sasb byu edu stephan fassmann writes in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu kcochran nyx cs du edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes in article sdcc ucsd edu shopper ucsd edu writes does anyone have or know where i can find a list of christian owned corporations and companies one that i know of is wordperfect i believe that wordperfect is actually owned by the mormons sorry wordperfect is own by a mormon not the lds church slight semantical difference the lds church does own a heck of a lot however they are the largest land holder in missouri where they think christ will appear at the second coming i believe they also own some large beverage company like pepsi that was why they had to take caffiene off of their forbidden substance list
talk.religion.misc	re apr god s promise in john in article bskendigc ku c dx netcom com bskendig netcom com brian kendig writes i ve asked your god several times with all my heart to come to me i really wish i could believe in him cos no matter how much confidence i build up on my own the universe is a big place and it would be so nice to know i have someone watching over me in it brian k i am pleased with your honesty and to be honest as well i believe you have not asked my god to come to you why do i say this because by the things you write on the net and the manner with which you write them you show me that you made up your own god and are attempting to pass him off as the real thing i got news for you yours doesn t at all sound like mine your god doesn t come to you because your god doesn t exist i ve gone into this with an open mind i ve layed my beliefs aside from time to time when i ve had doubt and i ve prayed to see what good that would do i don t see what more i can do to open myself to your god short of just deciding to believe for no good reason and if i decide to believe for no good reason why not believe in some other god zeus seems like a pretty cool candidate i am sorry brian but when i read your postings i do not see an open mind what i do see is misunderstanding lack of knowledge arrogance and mockery please tell me what more i can do while still remaining true to myself be true to yourself then have an open mind and so end the mockery gain knowledge of the real god put your presumptions aside read the bible and know that there is truly is a reason for everything and there exists a god that has so much love for you that the depth of it goes beyond our shallow worldly experience a person who commits himself to seeking god will find god jesus stands at your door and knocks but a person who half heartedly opens the bible or opens it with purpose to find something to mock will find learn and see nothing the only thing one will gain with that attitude is folly be careful to not jump the gun for at first glance there are many passages in the bible that will seem bizarre and absurd be assured that even though they seem alien at first be confident that they are not be assured that beyond your present comprehension there lies such deep reasons that once you see them you will indeed be satisfied i will personally guarantee that one as jesus put it you will never be thirsty again your cup will even flow over from king solomon b c to b c it is the glory of god to conceal a matter to search out a matter is the glory of kings jesus says in john no one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him and in john for god so loved the world that he gave his one and only son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life you are included in whosoever and i also pray that the father is drawing you which it seems he is doing else you wouldn t be posting to talk religion misc remember brian you could be a st paul in the making paul not only mocked christians as you do but also had pleasure stoning them yet god showed him mercy saved him and paul became on of the most celebrated men in the history of god s church you see brian i myself better be careful and not judge you because you could indeed be the next paul for with the fervor that you attack christians one day you might find yourself one and like paul proclaim the good news of jesus with that very same fervor or more or you could be the next peter what jesus said to peter jesus would probably say to you satan would surely like to have you why so because peter was hard headed cynical and demonstrated great moments of stupidity but once peter committed himself to a task he did with full heart peter was the only apostle to have the faith to walk on water as jesus did you asked why not believe in zeus zeus didn t offer eternal life you got nothing to gain by believing in zeus brian ceccarelli brian gamma lpl arizona edu
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article apr scic intel com sbradley scic intel com seth j bradley writes in article c l i jj news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes why isn t this falsifiable i e there is no god the world has existed forever and had no starting point how does one falsify god s existance this again is a belief not a scien tific premise the original thread referred specifically to scientific creationism this means whatever theory or theories you propose must be able to be judged by the scientific method this is in contrast to purely philosophical arguments if given a definite definition of god it is sometimes possible to falsify the existance of that god but when one refuses to give an immutable definition one can not whatever promises that have been made can than be broken john laws a man without the honor to keep his given word
talk.religion.misc	re did he really rise emery the one single historic event that has had the biggest impact on the world over the centuries is the resurrection of jesus this is hardly possible as the majority of people in the world were born lived their life and died without ever knowing anything about christ the majority of the rest of the world have decided that he is not who emery thinks he is emery why were the writers of the new testament documents so convinced that jesus really did rise from the dead we have four gospel accounts i am leaving out all proofs of emery s which rely on quoting the bible as proof circular reasoning etc there have been occasions already stated many times for later generations of xtians to change edit or otherwise alter the bible to fit their political gospel and if we accept the bible as true just because the bible says it is true then to be fair we have to do the same to the bhagavad gita and the koran both of which contradict the bible enough said emery yet we have no reason to believe these disciples to be immoral and dishonest we have no historic information that would lead us to the conclusion that these people were not god fearing people who sincerely and whole heartedly believed that the resurrection of their lord jesus was a real event and for what gain would they lie to make a stand at that time meant persecution imprisonment and perhaps even death again this is only the biblical account and there is no independent proof of any of this happening it just isn t there besides simply being sincere or willing to die for your faith does not make your faith correct there are muslims dying in bosnia right now does the fact that they are willing to die for islam mean that islam is the correct religion emery history bears out the persecution of christians roman historian cornelius tacitus govenor of asia in a d writing of nero s reign alluded to the torture of christians in rome all you have proven is that these people were tortured for their faith that does not prove that their faith is true or correct it just means that they were sincere in their beliefs being willing to die for what you believe doesn t make your belief the truth it s not that easy and minority religions have always suffered torture muslims suffer torture and harassment in india and bosnia today all religions are harassed in china today you haven t proven anything so far emery with all the suffering and persecution that it meant to be a believer it would be quite probable that at least one of those in the supposed conspiracy would come forward and confess that the whole thing was a big hoax not if they didn t believe that it was a hoax emery yet not one did it seems rather reasonable that the disciples did not make up the resurrection but sincerely believed that jesus had actually risen from the dead especially in light of the sufferings that came upon those who believed the followers of muhammad firmly believed in the miracles that the koran says muhammad performed they were attacked and slaughtered for their beliefs they didn t denounce muhammad or islam if you are correct then that means islam is the true faith you see how stupid your proofs are
talk.religion.misc	re judas crucifixion tyre etc frank decenso but how it s evident from the texts in ezek that god isn t concerned about buildings or structures god is concerned about people the people and leadership ezek never did return as a city others may have come later and built a city but the people and leadership that god prophesied about in ezek were never rebuilt as a city of people and leaders how incredibly fucking stupid of course the text is referring to the city itself buildings bricks mortar etc otherwise it makes no sense to refer to the future of tyre as being reduced to nothing but a place to spread fishing nets is there any twisting of text or semantic game that you won t do to preserve your faith from admission of error decenso
talk.religion.misc	re judas crucifixion tyre etc frank decenso i need to prioritize things in my life and this board is not all that important to me of course it is it forms a very big part of your self respect you come onto the board thinking you re some sort of apologeticist for your faith and you routinely get roasted over a grill for stupid theories and unfounded assumptions frank decenso this board will have to wait until if ever i can organize my life to fit it in i tried dropping out but sieferman coerced me to come back he won t this time i doubt that sieferman has anything to do with you dropping out it s probably closer to the truth to say that you don t have the cards to play in this game because you insist on playing from a losing hand and you re finally realizing it you will lurk on the board and keep quiet for a while looking for an area where you are certain that you are correct and then we ll see you pop back in again of course you then will say that you have merely returned because your life is now in order but we ll know better
talk.religion.misc	re is it good that jesus died in article bskendigc l jm netcom com bskendig netcom com brian kendig writes john most assuredly i say to you unless a grain of wheat falls onto the ground and dies it remains alone but if it dies it produces much grain he who loves his life will lose it and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life if anyone serves me let him follow me and where i am there my servant will be also if anyone serves me him my father will honor why would i want an eternal life if i hate this one again you missed jesus s point if you read the surrounding passages you would understand what jesus means by life in the world but as is you bumbled around asserted your standard axiom that the bible is bunk and came up with the wrong idea also you do not know exactly what jesus means by eternal life brian k do you expect to jump in the middle of the quantum mechanics book and understand hermite polynomials having not read the surrounding material why do you such with the bible for an idea what jesus means by the world look up references to it in your concordance for a good description the whole book of ecclesiastes is game for eternal life check out john john you will find that eternal life is quite different than what you think eternal life starts now an infinitely high quality of life living in fellowship with god in short even if your deity does exist that doesn t automatically mean that i would worship it i am content to live my own life and fend for myself so when i die i can be proud of the fact that no matter where i end up it will be because of my actions and my choices if your god decides to toss me into a flaming pit for this then so be it i would much rather just cease to exist but if your god wants my respect and my obedience then it had better earn these and if it does then they will be very strong and true if my diety exists you would not just cease to exist jesus talks of hell in luke you ve got to understand my point of view i see christians spouting bible verse all the time as if it were some sort of magic spell that will level all opposition truth is it s not robert has never demonstrated that he actually understands what the verses imply he just rattles them off day by day some brazenly fly in the face of common sense and reality and i point these out where i can the truth is is that it is not some sort of magic spell the truth is is that you do not understand it and enjoy not understanding it christanity is a very nice belief set around a very nice book wrong again christianity is supposed to be relationship you do not even know what christianity is and you are arguing against it and in my opinion you re bumbling about blindly making up entities where there aren t any and depriving yourself of a true understanding and enjoyment of your life as long as you keep your beliefs to yourself i ll keep my beliefs to myself but as soon as you start waving them around expect me to toss in my opinions too just as i make up such places as jericho jerusalem babylon corinth ephesus susa and such kings as nebuchanezzar david solomon sennacherib herod pontius pilate but i guess then that you treat abraham lincoln as a myth like you do odin and zeus
talk.religion.misc	re gilligan s island den of iniquity beb pt com bruce buck writes in article apr nuscc nus sg matmcinn nuscc nus sg matthew macintyre at the national university of senegal writes gilligan sloth skipper anger thurston howell iii greed lovey howell gluttony ginger lust professor pride mary ann envy assorted monkeys secular humanism assorted headhunters godless heathen savagery russian agent who looks like gilligan godless communism japanese sailor godless barbarism walter pigeon godless bird turd the mosquitos bingo bango bongo irving godless rock n roll harold heckuba phil silvers hollywood hedonism john mcgiver butterfly flicking tonga the fake apeman deceit lust eva grubb deceit lust
talk.religion.misc	re a message for you mr president how do you know what happened tbrent bank ecn purdue edu timothy j brent writes probably not but then i don t pack heavy weaponry with intent to use it you don t really think he should have been allowed to keep that stuff do you if so tell me where you live so i can be sure to steer well clear i understand that they had the neccessary licenses and permits to own automatic weapons the public also has rights and they should be placed above those of the individual go ahead call me a commie but you d be singing a different tune if i exercised my right to rape your daughter he broke the law he was a threat to society they did there job simple i haven t seen any proof or even evidence that the bd s had broken the law if you have proof or evidence let s hear it the fbi said so is not evidence i ll support them all except no i guess there will always be people who wish to be peasants the politicians prefer unarmed peasants
talk.religion.misc	re biblical backing of koresh s tape cites enclosed xcpslf oryx com stephen l favor writes seems to me koresh is yet another messenger that got killed for the message he carried which says nothing about the character of the messenger i reckon we ll have to find out the rest the hard way koresh was killed because he wanted lots of illegal guns i haven t heard of any illegal guns being found he was accused of not paying taxes on legal guns
talk.religion.misc	re biblical backing of koresh s tape cites enclosed nelson p apollo hp com peter nelson writes nut or not he was clearly a liar he said he would surrender after local radio stations broadcast his message but he didn t then he said he would surrender after passover but he didn t the fbi said he would surrender we don t know what he said
talk.religion.misc	re merlin mithras and magick in article joshua apr bailey cpac washington edu joshua cpac washington edu joshua geller wrote i would really appreciate if when someone brought something like this up they didn t back out when someone asked for details josh excuse me i am not trying to back out josh maybe you should try to make an informed responce when your are trying to pack and your references are packed and someone responses like you did no grin pegasus
talk.religion.misc	re who s next mormons and jews in article apr ra royalroads ca mlee post royalroads ca malcolm lee writes in article c rlps fr world std com jhallen world std com joseph h allen writes in article qvk sinn vo clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com jim de arras writes it was interesting to watch the club today pat robertson said that the branch dividians had met the firey end for worshipping their false god he also said that this was a terrible tragedy and that the fbi really blew it i don t necessarily agree with pat robertson every one will be placed before the judgement seat eventually and judged on what we have done or failed to do on this earth god allows people to choose who and what they want to worship i m sorry but he does not ever read the first commandment worship of money is one of the greatest religions in this country you mean false religion
talk.religion.misc	re a message for you mr president how do you know what happened in article cjkc sy g ko netcom com cjk netcom com writes this was obviously a lot different than the ordinary fbi adventure i believe that the federal officers had a conflict of interests here throught out the whole affair it seamed to me that they were chiefly concerned with saving face rather than saving lifes its true that the bd were resisting arrest and that they should have surrendered when they first realized that these where federal officers but they didn t i m not sure what you mean by saving face unless you are confusing the fbi with the batf who are the ones who were in charge of the original search warrant but when they didn t the fbi should not have treated as a hostage situation it wasn t i think more discussions possible independant negotiators and family intervention should have been used independant negotiators what was there to negotiate any sort of plea bargin has to be brought to the court the negotiators can t negotiate charges or sentences fbi negotitators did make a deal for the dividians to come out koresh showed he was not negotiating in good faith and there is no reason to believe independent negotiators would have done any better richard
talk.religion.misc	re a message for you mr president how do you know what happened i told some friends of mine two weeks ago that koresh was dead the fbi and the batf could not let a man like that live he was a testimonial to their stupidity and lies now before everyone gets crazy with me let me say that koresh was crazy as a bed bug but out government was crazier and they lied to us they told us compound had been under survaillance for quite some time yet whoever was watching the place failed to see that koresh went jogging and into town on a regular basis everyone in the area claimed to have seen him and wondered why they didn t pick him up then there are two possible answers first they didn t see him what kind of survaillance is that second they didn t care they wanted a confrontation they wanted publicity and they got it after the first battle they told us that they did not know he knew they were coming they also said it would have been foolish to go in knowing that well we know now that they intercepted the informants call and went in anyway did they explore all of the possibilities for ending the seige according to them they did but according to the hartford courant the woman that raised koresh his grandmother was not allowed to go in and see him the fbi agent who she spoke with was bob ricks and according to the paper he said a lot of people think if you just talk to them logically they will come out his grandmother raised vernon howell koresh s real name she didn t raise david koresh someone who raises you and loves you does not speak to you strickly on a logical level there is also an emotional level on which they can reach you here s another one all during this operation the fbi has been claiming that they feared a mass suicide and that is one of the reasons that something must be done now they claim they never thought he would do it i knew they were going to do something when they started talking about how much money this was costing that was the start of the justification part part of the plan that s when i knew it would come soon but back to the plan it is considered cruel and unusal punishment to execute criminals in the minds of many people but look at what s acceptable they knew the parents adults had gas masks they did not know or were not sure if the children had them so the plan was to pour the gas into the compound the mothers seeing what the gas was doing to their children were supposed to run out and that would only leave the men to deal with i spent two years in the army and like everyother veteran i went through cbr chemical biological radiological warfare training part of that training is going into a room filled with the same stuff that the children were subjected to to make the stuff really interesting the gas also has a chemical agent that irritates the skin you think its on fire i have no doubts the children would become hysterical its not the kind of thing you never want to do again this was the plan the final solution we waited days for our hostages to come home from iran we gave these people days i stated on several occasions that there was absolutely nothing in this whole thing that the government could point to as a success well fbi agent ricks changed my mind again a newclip from the hartford courant and while expressing regret at the loss of life he suggested that the operation had been at least a modified success because not a single federal shot had been fired and not a single federal agent had been hurt it took dead children to get us that new definition of success one more thought the government claimed that they believed he had automatic weapons on the premises he had a license for the caliber machine gun they knew damn well he had one they also knew he had it legally still without the element of surprise they sent in agents to get him for all of this my president takes full responsibility what a guy i hope he gets it in article exuptr exu ericsson se exuptr exu ericsson se patrick taylor the sounding board writes in article prijat cs uofs edu bill triangle cs uofs edu bill gunshannon writes before you go absolving the batf fbi of all blame in this incident you should probably be aware of two important facts there is no such thing as non toxic tear gas tear gas is non breathable remaining in it s presence will cause nausea and vomiting followed eventually by siezures and death did the fbi know the physical health of all the people they exposed any potential heart problems among the b d s no doubt it is dangerous stuff when concentrated have you ever seen a tear gas canister tear gas is produced by burning a chemical in the can the fumes produced are tear gas the canister has a warning printed on the side of it contact with flamable material can result in fire now how many of these canisters did they throw inside a building they admited was a fire trap none they used non incindiary methods which means they produced the gas outside the building and pumped it in via the tanks visit the sounding board bbs a wildcat bbs obdis all opinions are specifically disclaimed no one is responsible patrick taylor ericsson network systems thx exuptr exu ericsson se don t let the se fool you
talk.religion.misc	re a message for you mr president how do you know what happened in article c stel k e boi hp com dianem boi hp com diane mathews writes dear brother bill one way or another so much for patience too bad you couldn t just wait was the prospect of god s message just too much to take so do you want the president to specifically order each and every activity of the fbi or what and how willing are you to blame reagan and bush directly for the incidents that took place in the war on drugs in their administration are you going to blame bush for the fact that weaver s wife infant son were killed it happened while he was president or consider the thousands in central america killed by those brave cia nsc sponsored freedom fighters thus far slick willie is a piker spl steve lamont sciviguy spl szechuan ucsd edu san diego microscopy and imaging resource uc san diego la jolla ca my other car is a car too bumper strip seen on i
talk.religion.misc	wanted moltmann s god in creation i m greatly in need of jurgen moltmann s book god in creation an ecological doctrine of creation if you have a copy you re willing to part with i d love to hear from you soon you may call me at or e mail me thanks susan soric independent agent susan soric upubs uchicago edu
talk.religion.misc	re abortion and private health coverage letters regarding dgs psuvm psu edu writes for an illustrative example in the opposite direction it may be possible to add services to an insurance contract and reduce the premium if you add preventative services and this reduces acute care use then the total premium may fall women who are known not to want abortion services for example might be judged to be more likely to require prenatal care coverage for childbirth which can be an order of magnitude more expensive than abortion this topic should really be restricted to talk abortion which exists to relieve t r m t p m of abortion flamage c j silverio cj sgi com ceej well sf ca us in melbourne fla meanwhile anti abortion marchers rallied to celebrate the death of dr david gunn praise god they shouted ny daily news fri march p
talk.religion.misc	re a kind and loving god malcolm lee mlee post royalroads ca wrote i will clarify my earlier quote god s laws were originally written for the israelites jesus changed that fact by now making the law applicable to all people not just the jews gentiles could be part of the kingdom of heaven through the saving grace of god i never said that the law was made obsolete by jesus just for reference here s the earlier quote malcolm lee mlee post royalroads ca wrote in reference to leviticus and deuteronomy these laws written for the israelites god s chosen people whom god had expressly set apart from the rest of the world the israelites were a direct witness to god s existence to disobey god after knowing that god is real would be an outright denial of god and therefore immediately punishable remember these laws were written for a different time and applied only to god s chosen people but jesus has changed all of that we are living in the age of grace sin is no longer immediately punishable by death there is repentance and there is salvation through our lord jesus christ and not just for a few chosen people salvation is available to everyone jew and gentile alike these are two conflicting statements to say one is a clarification of the other is a breach of logic i don t mind people shifting their position on an issue it irritates me when it is said under the premise that no change was made what about deuteronomy is it wrong now did jesus change that if anything he clarified the law such as in that quote you made in the following verses jesus takes several portions of the law and expounds upon the law giving clearer meaning to what god intended sure he does this however he doesn t address the notion of stoning non virgin brides because this needs no clarification are you going to deny that deuteronomy is not patently clear in its intent i think you will agree with me that there are in today s world a lot of modern day pharisees who know the bible from end to end but do not believe in it what good is head knowledge if there is nothing in the heart i ll agree that there is a lot of modern day pharisees that know the bible from end to end and don t believe in it depending on how they use this knowledge they can be scary they can argue any position they desire and back it up with selected parts of the bible such pharisees include david koresh and adolph hitler i will qualify this by saying i don t know if they actually believed what they were preaching but the ends certainly made the means look frightening however just as scary are those that don t know much of the bible but believe every word in fact this is probably scarier since there are far more of these people from what i ve seen in addition they are very easy to manipulate by the aforementioned pharisees since they don t know enough to debate with these people christianity is not just a set of rules it s a lifestyle that changes one s perspectives and personal conduct and it demands obedience to god s will no it demands obedience to a book if god came down and personally told me how i should behave then i would say that i would be doing god s will by doing it however if preachers pastors and evangelists tell me to obey the will of a book written by people who have been dead for close to two millenia even longer for the ot even if i follow everything in it with my heart i could scarcely be honest with myself by saying i m doing the will of god some people can live by it but many others cannot or will not that is their choice and i have to respect it because god respects it too well if god respects it so much how come there is talk in the bible about eternal damnation for non believers i see little respect eminating from the god of the bible i see a selfish and spiteful god god be with you not yours thanks malcolm lee rob lanphier lanphi snake cs uidaho edu lanph uidaho edu and for the curious here is my earlier post hmm for a book that only applied to the israelites deuteronomy jesus sure quoted it a lot mt in addition he alludes to it in several other places mt mk jn and just in case it isn t clear jesus thought the old testament isn t obsolete i ll repeat the verse in matthew which gets quoted on this group a lot do not think that i have come to abolish the law or the prophets i have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them i tell you the truth until heaven and earth disappear not the smallest letter not the least stroke of a pen will by any means disappear from the law until everything is accomplished anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven for i tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the pharisees and the teachers of the law you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven mt niv in pretty red letters so that you know it s jesus talking this causes a serious dilemma for christians who think the old testament doesn t apply to them i think that s why paul harvey likes quoting it so much
talk.religion.misc	re who s next mormons and jews in article c soda l murdoch acc virginia edu pmy vivaldi acc virginia edu pete yadlowsky writes ken arromdee writes did they not know that these men were federal officers do you know what a no knock search is yes but tell me how you think your question answers my question if the bds didn t know immediately that they were dealing with feds uniform apparel insignia they must have figured it out in pretty short order why did they keep fighting they seemed awfully ready for having been attacked without warning oh bloody sorry old chap why didn t you tell me you were a federale tough luck eh what s that you say you re not dead yet
talk.religion.misc	re rfd misc taoism in article cup portal com thyagi cup portal com thyagi morgoth nagasiva writes i would like to add my support for a misc taoism discussion group i applaud the enthusiam shown by the person posting cup portal com thyagi cup portal com i read in alt magick but i differ with him her in believing that at least some minimal parameters should be agreed upon thyagi wrote i recommend that the depth of generality indeed of ambiguity in this newsgroup misc taoism be maximized calling the tradition old or new is rather unnecessary and only leads to foolish squabbles there is no doubt that nature is a splendid teacher whether she appears in the words spoken by a tree or by a stream a microbe or a star let us not limit misc taoism to philosophy but if we don t limit it to something the discussion degenerates into a big amorphous glob other questions thyagi proposes are what is this actual process of reality why is taoism based upon an assumption why does this assumption concern knowledge and what can be known what is the value of not knowing what is a tao what does it mean to be tao d it seems to me that these questions more properly fall into the category of general metaphysics i would prefer any misc taoism to deal more closely with topics and works more closely associated with at least semi orthodox taoism with established classic works definitely included and works like mantak chia s argued about i think neo taoism should be excluded or get its own group what i mean by this is humpty dumpty taoism in which taoism means whatever a poster says it means this alt taoism could also be a refuge for debates about what taoism really means or speculations on sexual alchemy etc e g from thyagi again taoism does what the hell it wants i tell you taoism doesn t exist taoism is no more real that tao decide now real or not real exist or not exist when shall we be certain kent gloomily predicts quoting from thyagi s article however most traffic in the group will likely concern the philosophical secular taoism averred by alan watts and niels bohr and yogic taoism as it pertains to medical sexual and martial techniques i think that discussions of this nature are not completely out of place what s happening is that that the term taoism is becoming completely polluted and trivialized like the words magic alchemy zen etc by writers appropriating the word to mean whatever they want this is seen by the spate of new age books entitled the tao of this that and everything else with respect to some exceptions like the books by jou tsung hwa any other comments ideas i look forward to seeing them on balance i say let misc taoism rip and let the chips fall where they may if it just gets filled up with college freshmen asking about the tao of sex then it will have been a failure and people will post to these groups just as they do now tim p scott sending from megatek corporation ext scranton rd san diego ca usa fax internet tims megatek com or uunet megatek tims
talk.religion.misc	re davidians and compassion in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes so we have this highly christian religious order that put fire on their house killing most of the people inside i m not that annoyed about the adults they knew supposedly what they were doing and it s their own actions what i mostly are angry about is the fact that the people inside including mothers let the children suffer and die during awful conditions if this is considered religious following to the end i m proud that i don t follow such fanatical and non compassionate religions you might want to die for whatever purpose but please spare the innocent young ones that has nothing to do with this all i have a hard time just now understanding that christianity knows about the word compassion christians do you think the actions today would produce a good picture of your religion kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net surely you are not equating david koresh with christianity the two are not comparable
talk.religion.misc	re who s next mormons and jews in article isscck byuvm bitnet isscck byuvm bitnet casper c knies writes please allow me to explain myself in the governor of missouri casper c knies isscck byuvm bitnet brigham young university isscck vm byu edu ucs computer facilities capser before you deceive everone into thinking that the latter day saints have undergone undue persecution through the years for just believing in their religion perhaps you would like to tell us all what happened in the mountain meadow massacres and all the killings that were done under the blood atonement doctrine at the command of brigham young
talk.religion.misc	re info about new age in article qvnu a a geraldo cc utexas edu hawk ccwf cc utexas edu writes greetings could anybody here give me any information about new age religion about the history the teachings or may be suggestions what books i should read in order to get those info any help would be greatly appreciated contact watchman fellowship p o box holladay ut ask for their book the new age and space age heresies the new age in our schools
talk.religion.misc	re davidians and compassion sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes in article apr ra royalroads ca mlee post royalroads ca malcolm lee wrote do you judge all christians by the acts of those who would call themselves christian and yet are not the bd s contradicted scripture in their actions they were not christian simple as that perhaps you have read too much into what the media has portrayed ask any true believing christian and you will find that they will deny any association with the bd s even the th day adventists have denied any further ties with this cult which was what they were well if they were satanists or followers of an obscure religion then i would be sure that christians would in unison condemn and make this to a show case you might be sure but you would also be wrong and does not this show the dangers with religion in order word a mind virus that will make mothers capable of letting their small children burn to ashes while they scream i suspect the answer to this question is the same as the answer to do not the actions of the likes of stalin show the dangers of atheism
talk.religion.misc	re is it good that jesus died jesus this is the verdict light has come into the world but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds are evil everyone who does evil hates the light and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed kent sandvik says it seems we are dealing with a black and white interpretation brian are you subtly accusing me of evil things because i never saw the light however this is even more confusing because i even admit that i don t like the situation where i m not informed black and white a spade is a spade there is no hidden agenda behind this so stop trying to look for one it is an easy and as straight forward as it reads kent i am not accusing you of evil things jesus is accusing you and it is not only you that he is accusing he is accusing everyone me you and everyone in the world is guilty whether one sees the light or does not seen the light has nothing to do with whether we do evil things we do them regardless jesus uses the word men i am included jesus is not soloing you out jesus is making a general statement about out the sad state of man christians are not immuned from doing evil things a christian is just a person in whom the holy spirit indwells a christian can see the evil he is doing because his evil has been brought out into the light jesus is not saying that just because evil has been exposed that the christian will stop doing evil if you haven t seen jesus s light your evil deeds simply haven t been exposed to the his light you may shed some light on your own your human spirit shines at perhaps candela but the holy spirit shines at a megacandela the holy spirit can shine light into places inside us where we didn t even know existed so do you see jesus s point christians are not perfect nonchristians are not perfect nonchristians do not want to come into the light of jesus because they will see all the problems in their lives and they will not like the sight it is an ugly thing to see how far we have fallen from jesus s perspective do you think you want to know how really ignorant you are do you think brian kendig wants to know do you think i want to know ego verses the truth which do you choose i m watching the news about a man who saw the light and made sure that the children burned to death as part of his insight into the light i don t think the world is that simple and if you act in such ways when you are enlighted then i m a happy man and i pray i will never receive such light and i watched koresh too an imposter who thought he saw the light who made sure that the children burned to death sadly as part of his delusion it is even sadder that the people who died with him chose to die with them and that ignorance was their downfall to death and kent don t you bury yourself underneath a rock with an excuse like bringing up koresh as if koresh actually had truth in him david koresh was no light and no excuse for you to stay away from the real jesus christ david koresh who claimed to be jesus was a fraud it was obvious david koresh was born in america jesus was born in bethlehem koresh wasn t even a good imposter having missed an obvious point as that jesus warned of such imposters in the end times david koresh wasn t anything new to jesus jesus told us to be aware of imposters years ago so the next time an imposter makes a scene and claims to be jesus ask the obvious where were you born was your mother s name mary if the branch davidians asked that simple question they would have labeled koresh a liar right from the start the wouldn t have followed koresh they wouldn t have died but look what happened their ignorance cost them their lives their choice to be ignorant cost them a lot kent since you studied the bible under lutheranism do you not remember what tactic satan used to try to tempt jesus did not satan quote the bible out of context do you remember what tactic the serpent of genesis used to tempt eve did he not misquote god what satan used on eve and succeeded was the same ploy he tried on jesus but in jesus s case jesus rebuked satan back with the bible in context it didn t work with jesus does what satan did to eve in the garden and what satan tried to do with jesus in the desert remind you of what koresh did to his followers who did koresh emulate who was koresh s teacher koresh did to his followers what satan did to eve did not koresh kill his followersr did not satan cause adam and eve to die as well did not the cult followers believe koresh even though they knew the real christ was born in bethlehem did not eve choose to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil despite knowing that it would cause her death god held them all responsible deceiver and the rebeller none of them had an excuse as opposed to the branch davidians we have a second chance follow jesus and he will escort us to the path of eternal life don t follow jesus and you stand condemned already for like the branch davidian complex your house is already on fire satan adam and eve have already set it ablaze it is just a slow burn but it is burning nevertheless
talk.religion.misc	re a message for you mr president how do you know what happened in a previous article spl pitstop ucsd edu steve lamont says or consider the thousands in central america killed by those brave cia nsc sponsored freedom fighters thus far slick willie is a piker only if you weight americans equal to salvadorans i don t
talk.religion.misc	re who s next mormons and jews in article blue cis pitt edu rjl pitt edu richard j loether writes yes of course as in matthew do not suppose that i have come to bring peace to the earth it is not peace i have come to bring but a sword remember the armor of god the sword that christians wield is the word of god the bible god be with you malcolm lee rjl rich loether snail mail university of pittsburgh the ideas email rjl pitt edu computing and info services mine voice epsilon drive all fax pittsburgh pa mine
talk.religion.misc	re davidians and compassion in article f dutxh quack kfu com pharvey quack kfu com paul harvey writes in article apr ra royalroads ca mlee post royalroads ca malcolm lee writes if one does not follow the teachings of christ he is not christian too easy that would exclude most self proclaimed christians do you follow the ten commandments as a matter of fact yes i do or at least i strive to i will not be so proud as to boast that my faith is i am still human and imperfect and therefore liable to sin thankfully there is opportunity for repentence and forgiveness god be with you malcolm lee
talk.religion.misc	re who s next mormons and jews isaac kuo saackuo spam berkeley edu writes in article isscck byuvm bitnet casper c knies isscck byuvm b gedaliah friedenberg friedenb maple egr msu edu writes as a latter day saint i found john s statement not at all ludicrous please allow me to explain myself in the governor of missouri governor boggs issued his so called mormon extermination order the only crime illegal activity the latter day saints had committed was their religious affiliation their anti slave stance missouri still allowed slave practices and their growing numbers influence in missouri i guess the mormons got what they deserved because they refused to bow to the will of corrupt and evil secular authorities this disobedience brought upon them persecution murder and finally forced expulsion from their lands and settlements it is significant to remember that these secular positions were held by average people and that at the time almost all americans were pretty homogeonously christian it was largely the mainstream christian s disgust at such practices as polygamy which resulted in their irrational hatred true but that is exactly the problem the mormon extermination order was issued not just by a christian it was allowed under the constitution of the united states which was instituted precisely to prevent incidents like this order from occurring in the first place as i indicated in an earlier posting your irrational hatred is clearly evidenced by individuals like robert weiss who could have been gov boggs lieutenant he would have fitted right in drewling et al and seems a modern day occurrence based on results slander persecution misrepresentation lies denying mormons representation in their own user group etc etc in intent and purpose what really has changed the situation is not entirely different today many irrational feelings and beliefs are justified through religion i don t think most of them are started because of religion but religion certainly helps justify and perpetuate prejudices and practices by providing a neat justification which discourages critical thought true as evidenced by numerous examples as i am sure you re aware in any regard mormon history alone indicates that secular authorities and i don t even discuss how uthan s were suckered into allowing part of their lands in becoming nerve gas and atomic bomb testing grounds is far from being trusted or righteous have things really changed for the better i may be a born cynic but i have no reason whatsoever that such has been the case in the early s i believe the late president kimball lds church leader strongly protested federal attempts to locate the mx peace keeper missile maze from being built in utah yet another inspired decision from secular authorities fortunately his opposition was influential enough for the feds to back off do you mean that the secular authorities are some continuous group of people with the common and uninterrupted goal of harrassing eradicating the mormons do you honestly believe that the main reason for using utah for nuclear testing etc was to get them thar mormons and what about the majority of uthan s who aren t mormons you seem to be searching for enemy correction the majority of utahn s are mormon i believe up to a in many cities and settlements throughout the western states conspiracies it is paranoid to believe that everything that affects you badly must have been done primarily for that purpose what i mean is that secular authorities are to be watched as we believe that satan has been given some power and dominion over the earth to divert truth judgment and justice in addition we believe that the adversary has power to influence the unjust and idolatrous greed for money would be a good example in order to bring about persecution war oppression and evil combinations as an intelligent being don t you suppose that the destroyer would yield his influence foremost on those with political power as far as utah is concerned what i pointed out were some horrible examples of environmental nightmares imposed upon by secular authorities which have brought death disease i e the downwinders and environmental contami nation i am hardly paranoid i am just not expecting too much from a secular government that may not share our values and faith and which indeed as gov boggs et al may be out to harm and destroy us as a matter of fact prophecies in my church indicate that in future years global persecution against mormons will so increase in intensity and scope that paraphrasing all those who wish to escape persecution and murder must flee to zion zion the pure in heart will be re established in those days and it ain t our current secular authorities who will rule over it david koresh did not pose a great threat to the federal authorities or the security of this nation and with john i too wonder who or what s next i personally feel that we should try to stop anyone who is a threat to the life of even one person sure he did not pose a threat to the security of this nation but he did pose a threat to the lives of his followers that much is definite hmmm definite by whom until such has been established beyond reason able doubt this alleged threat may have been less than the threat imposed upon him and his followers by the batf and fbi who killed who what constitutional right did the atf officers have to invade upon private land and to force themselves into the compound what really caused the murder of the little children could it be that the atf fbi presence has any bearing upon the events how would you interpret the mt masada events blame the jews what the heck did the romans do there anyway what business did the atf fbi has in waco texas the branch davidians never posed any threat to society this is like asking who really caused the deaths of the israeli olympic team in in that case the police botched the job as well but to lay a heavier burden on them than the terrorists would be a terrible mistake i think the same sort of reasoning applies in this case certainly if david koresh chose any peaceful option the atf and fbi would have complied the responsibility is more his than the authorities come now at issue is in how much the authorities escalated an otherwise peaceful stand off let s get it over with and force david koresh to come out by gassing them were they naive or what they played right into the hands of an apocalyptic thinking individual he had prepared his people for this eventuality for years and not one firetruck or plan was in place to deal with this scenario i feel that the authorities had some responsibility to protect their own citizens even if they were religious zealots and guilty of not paying a gun license has the batf become an extension of the local tax collectors david koresh no doubt will be described as the evil guy by the executioners while the actions of all those valiant and brave officers characterizing the atf fbi as executioners is inaccurate and unfair in order to be an executioner the least one must have done is have the intent to kill que intrusion into private property with semi s loaded with life ammunition isn t that implicit intent or at least prepared to kill i ask you would the batf warrant stand up in a civil court of justice i do not mind if criminals such as dangerous drug lords are brought to justice but escalating events to the point of allowing to if not compli city with the destruction of a people isaac kuo isaackuo math berkeley edu how lucky you english are to find the toilet so amusing o for us it is a mundane and functional item for you the basis of an entire culture manfred von richtofen casper c knies isscck byuvm bitnet brigham young university isscck vm byu edu ucs computer facilities
talk.religion.misc	re who s next mormons and jews dan sorenson viking iastate edu writes in mcclaryc snpq kb netcom com mcclary netcom com michael mcclary writes just thought i d clear up a few of the murky areas actually after surviving being driven out of nauvoo and later carthage the mormons did fortify utah they still arm themselves to defend the faith and stockpile food as well they have been involved in quite a lot of illegal activity including multiple and often underage wives for the leaders a practice still in vogue with some splinters of their sect the parallels between koresh and joseph smith are striking by they you mean the leaders of the lds church i grant you that when joseph smith was still alive plenty of accusations were filed most of which had little bearing with reality as evidenced by various verdicts i have studied lds history for years now and i have yet to see prove that the lds leadership was involved in quote illegal activities plural marriage yes but your charge of underage wives sounds like it could have originated from a tabloid and discredits the high moral standards which characterized these leaders and families unlike as it appears those of david koresh joseph smith started the sect after he and his brother hyram were murdered in a nauvoo il jail cell church membership split over who to follow initially smith was considered a prophet just like mohammed a rather interesting parallel considering muslims consider christ to be a prophet the same as jews i m led to understand make no mistake this was no messiah we re talking about in smith the and neither did he claim he was as the church reflects the moral aptitude of its leaders and especially those of joseph smith i have nothing but the highest respect for this inspired man whose only crime was that he refused to deny that he had seen a vision many have tried to explain the smith phenomenon away but the bold presence of an million member strong church stands as a witness that joseph smith s testimony had enough resilience and power to carry on the message thought at the time was that the gift of prophecy was to be handed down father to son after joseph smith died his son was only entering his teens brigham young and a few others claimed to have been bequeathed the gift and leadership prior to his death the council of twelve the church governing body wasn t of much help here and this basic conflict is still a wedge between the sects brigham young took his followers to salt lake the rest waited for smith jr to grow up enough to assume leadership the other claimants to the leadership were soon ignored like mike dukakis the rest were apostates and excommunicated members of the church while the great majority of the membership the twelve and the various auxiliary organizations chose to accept brigham young as the new prophet and leader of the church if you knew your lds scriptures and doctrine you would have known that brigham young was the first in line to fill the prophet joseph smith s vacancy he was the senior apostle in the quorum and various comments made by joseph indicated that it was brigham who would lead the latter day exodus to the west other rightful heirs were either dead hyrum smith or excommunicated oliver cowdery and while persecutions abounded and intensified joseph smith had already given orders to look for a new place an empty land beyond the boundaries of the united states at that time this rekhabite principle pseudographia was well understood and antipated by the great majority of lds faithful and was not questioned by them granted a couple of do it yourselfers stayed behind unwilling to sacrifice and to undertake the perilous journey to the unknown but this also was necessary to separate the tares from the wheat the church benefitted from this purification process they became even more unified and willing to carry out their mission to the world both sects practiced the year food stockpile doctrine and this being frontier and farming country most carried or at least owned weapons there is little evidence that they were a militaristic sect given that they tended to move on rather than face large scale opposition brigham young having suffered a great deal getting to salt lake seems to have been quite justified in making military training a good thing remember this was far beyond where even the us army went and these people had nobody to turn to save themselves just a little context to put this all in perspective btw since when is the church of jesus christ of latter day saints one of the largest denominations in the country a sect it didn t splinter from any other religion as did say the southern baptists or methodists so what did the mormons get it seems that j edgar hoover was very impressed with the way they kept secrets they re pledged to defend secrets with their lives and atone for sin with blood many actually do even to the point of suicide what a balloney suicide is sinful and against the law of god i am not comfortable with this alleged cosiness with mammon i assure you that many among us reject this attitude categorically period our only true allegiance is to our god and to the leaders which he has appointed to represent him in any regard to read this trash about suicide and atone for sins with blood is yet another insulting misrepresentation of what my church believes in and stands for the rlds the reorganized lds are friendly rivals of the lds and delight in telling stories about them which generates quick retorts from the lds members and everybody has a grand time at no time have i ever even heard this hinted at i m taking it with a salt block make it a really big salt mountain with a glacier on top so he hired virtually no one but mormons until the fbi was almost exclusively staffed by members of the church of later day saints though j edgar is finally gone the fbi personnel especially the field agents are still heavily mormon i have often wondered how this might affect the fbi s treatment of religious organizations a mormon would consider heretical preposterous even if this were true reliable data please i am convinced that those officers would perform to the highest codes of honor and conduct that s why they were selected for in the first place remember besides one of our articles of faith strongly states the principle of freedom of religion and that all people are free to worship how where or what they may if it s true there would be little affect lds and rlds philosophy is that all other religions have strayed from the true church as set down by jesus but that god will judge each on his own merits in addition the rlds also contend and the lds may as well that ignorance of the true way tm is an excuse you can only be condemned if you had been tought the way and rejected it in short lds and rlds suffer everybody from lutherans to buddhists secure in the knowledge that though they are wrong they will not be penalized for ignorance it is more likely that hoover liked them because of their rather strict upbringings which forbade alcohol tobacco hot drink like coffee or tea and the like these people are the salt of the earth and as such are more easily made to follow orders and have few vices to be used against them a good explanation i can accept that you are right that lds people are sometimes a little too cosy with mammon s orders the late president kimball for example was an exception with his strong opposition of the selection of the mx peace keeper missile maze in utah that s my somewhat educated guess anyway both sects have splinter groups that don t mirror the masses but these are small and rare and hardly worth noting their common ancestry none of this has any relevance to guns though when a man s religion is used to deny him the right of self protection with the weapons suitable for the job he ll find an ally in me dan sorenson dod z dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what i read not what i say don t blame them usenet post to exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them casper c knies isscck byuvm bitnet brigham young university isscck vm byu edu ucs computer facilities
talk.religion.misc	re a message for you mr president how do you know what happened in article apr ccsua ctstateu edu parys ccsua ctstateu edu writes i told some friends of mine two weeks ago that koresh was dead the fbi and the batf could not let a man like that live he was a testimonial to their stupidity and lies deleted unfortunately i think you ve got it figured pretty well i also ask myself the question why did they plan for so many months why was this so important to them what was the government really up to why did they seal the warrant were they after koresh or were they after the first and second amendments among others we waited days for our hostages to come home from iran we gave these people days joe gaut in the super state it really does not f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu matter at all what actually happened remember the alamo truth is what the government chooses to remember waco tell you justice is what it wants to happen jim garrison new orleans la
talk.religion.misc	re a message for you mr president how do you know what happened in article bskendigc rcbg azp netcom com bskendig netcom com brian kendig writes they used a tank to knock a hole in the wall and they released non toxic non flammable tear gas into the building how do you know were you there while obviously koresh was a nut case the typical inability of the government media to get its story straight is quite disturbing on tuesday night nbc news reported that the fbi did not know the place was burning down until they saw black smoke billowing from the building the next day fbi agents were insisting that they saw davidians setting the fire the fbi was also adamantly denying that it was possible their battery of the compound s wallks could have accidentally set the blaze while also saying they hadnt been able to do much investigating of the site because it was still too hot so how did they know they didnt accidentally set the fire sounds like the fbi just burned the place to the ground to destroy evidence to me legalize freedom
talk.religion.misc	re a message for you mr president how do you know what happened in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes i m mostly angry why the davidians didn t spare the children the awful suffering see my other posting i m in a bad temper well dozens of children left the compound between the original batf assualt and the fbi assault weeks later so if koresh really wanted to kill children why did he let so many go legalize freedom
talk.religion.misc	re that kill by sword must be killed by sword in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes so are you happy now when people including innocent kids died today no and im especially unhappy that these people died in an assault on private property with government armored vehicles i am also unhappy or actually very suspicious that the fbi was dismissing out of hand any chances that they might have accidentally set the blaze themselves i mean i guess we are just supposed to believe that ramming modified tanks into the walls of a building and injecting toxic gases into the building are just routine procedures no way anything could go wrong legalize freedom
talk.religion.misc	re a message for you mr president how do you know what happened in article visser convex convex com visser convex com lance visser writes please get an explaination of exactly what this non toxic tear gas was and what the delivery system was i refuse to believe any explaination provided by the fbi atf without lots of facts i do not believe that there is such a thing as non toxic tear gas you are correct see today s washington post the gas the fbi used is most certainly fatal in high concentrations of course non toxic tear gas is an oxymoron the whole point of tear gas is that it is toxic and its toxic effects cause people to seek fresh air legalize freedom
talk.religion.misc	re greek myth and the bible in pegasus fp dialin uoregon edu pegasus aaa uoregon edu laurie ewbrandt wrote irrelevant inserts from previous postings deleted a definiation from a text book used as part of an introductory course in social anthorpology the term myth designates traditionally based dramatic narratives on themes that emphasize the nature of humankind s relationship to nature and to the supernatural legends are ususally defined as tales concerning other times and places that do not give the same extensive emphasis to supernatural themes legends more often than myths are retold purely as entertainment from peter b hammand s an introduction to cutural and social anthropology second ed macmillion page this makes the bible a fibber magee s closet over stuffed with a little bit of every thing gleened by a wandering people pegasus now doesn t this sound a lot like the colorful or otherwise story from antiquity that somehow tries to or does explain natural pheno mena i think i hear what you re saying but i m not convinced that i know what you mean the possibility exists that what looks like myth on the surface may be after all much more than just a story ed mahood jr edmahood infoserv com
talk.religion.misc	re hitler pagan or christian was martin luther in article c e ak juts ccc amdahl com czl duts ccc amdahl com chris lee writes in article kevxu cunyvm bitnet kevxu cunyvm bitnet writes the irish have their version of the swastica called st brigid s cross there s also the three legged symbol of the isle of man the three legged symbol is a bit different there is a word for them but i can t recall it tri something trieskalon don t know these have more to do with the triple goddess in her three phases as reflected in females girl woman crone
talk.religion.misc	re apr god s promise in john brian lpl arizona edu brian ceccarelli writes in article bskendigc ku c dx netcom com bskendig netcom com brian kendig writes i ve asked your god several times with all my heart to come to me brian k i am pleased with your honesty and to be honest as well i believe you have not asked my god to come to you why do i say this because that would contradict your religious beliefs therefore you feel more comfortable simply accusing his sincerity so you will not have to critically examine your religious beliefs merlyn leroy
talk.religion.misc	apr god s promise in luke but he said yea rather blessed are they that hear the word of god and keep it luke
talk.religion.misc	re albert sabin in article quim innem ctron news ctron com king ctron com john e king writes rfox charlie usd edu writes bill i have taken the time to explain that biblical scholars consider the josephus reference to be an early christian insert by biblical scholar i mean an expert who in the course of his or her research is willing to let the chips fall where they may this excludes literalists who may otherwise be defined as biblical apologists they find what they want to find they are not trustworthy by scholarly standards and others i ve seen this claim about the josephus insert flying around the net too often to continue to ignore it perhaps it s true was there only one josephus manuscipt if there were say copies the forger would have to put his insert into all of them by the same token since josephus was a historian why are biblical scholars raising the flag historical scholars i would think would have a better handle on these ancient secular documents can you give researchers documents page numbers etc jack i became aware of the claim years ago so i decided to check it out on my own but then that was in bn times before net so here are some references see robin lane fox s the unauthorized version p where lane fox writes the one passage which appears to comment on jesus career is agreed to be a christian addition in my re albert sabin response c u sj sunfish usd edu to jim lippard april i noted that consensus is typically indicated subtly as in elaine pagel s the gnostic gospels p to wit a comment attributed to josephus reports emphasis mine scholars sometimes do not even mention the two josephus entries another subtlety reflecting consensus so far as i can deduce today s consensus is built on at least three things the long passage is way out of context origen did not know about the long passage and the short and long passages are contradictory i don t know the references wherein the arguments which led to consensus are orginally developed does anyone biblical scholars as i defined them include theologians and historians the former like the latter incorporate historical social technological and ideological contexts as well as theology so the distinction is blurred i didn t elaborate on that sorry in turn historians are compelled to incorporate theology can t say about the number of copies these were however bg times before gutenburg a hundred first editions seems exceedingly high counting on one hand seems more reasonable perhaps those mss without the long insert if any because anything is possible have been destroyed such a practice is certainly not foreign to religions anyway all we have are mss which have the two entries lippart in the message noted above talks about an arabic ms but here the ms date is critical rich fox anthro usouthdakota
talk.religion.misc	re abortion in uupcb ozonehole com anthony landreneau ozonehole com anthony landreneau writes to margoli watson ibm com larry margolis from anthony landreneau ozonehole com lm the rape has passed there is nothing that will ever take that away lm lm lm true but forcing her to remain pregnant continues the violation of lm lm her body for another months i see this as being unbelievably cruel lm lm life is not a violation lm but forcing someone to harbor that life in their body is a violation letting a mother force a child from her body in order to end that childs life is the ultimate violation i happen to take the violation of a person much more seriously than the violation of a mindless clump of cells smaller than my thumb your mileage may vary larry margolis margoli yktvmv bitnet margoli watson ibm com internet
talk.religion.misc	what we can learn from the waco wackos there are actually a few important things we can glean from this mess when they start getting desperate for an answer to the question what s it all about mr natural pinkboys will buy darn near anything which means there s still plenty of to be made in the false jesus business by enterprising subgenii just remember that once you ve separated the pinks from their green don t blow it all on automatic weapons from mexico put it in a swiss bank account smile a lot have your flunkies hand out flowers in airports the con will just shrug you off as long as you never never never start to believe your own bulldada if david koresh hand t started swallowing his own apocalypso now crap he d be working crossword puzzles in the bahamas today instead of contributing to the mulch layer in waco this is because when you start shooting at cops they re likely to shoot back and most of em are better shots than you are in short p t barnum was right and stupidity is self correcting thus endeth the lesson the doge of south st louis dobbs approved media conspirator tm one step beyond sundays to pm fm st louis community radio you ll pay to know what you really think j r bob dobbs
talk.religion.misc	re merlin mithras and magick in response to whitten fwva saic com david whitten i wrote there evidently was a feast of bread and wine associated with mithras i have often wondered if yeshua intentionally introduced this ritual to expand the appeal of his religion or if it was appropriated by later worshipers and you responded you could argue that if you wanted but i think a more reasonable argument would point out the fact that the remembrance feast was very similar to the pesach passover meal during seder a very jewish ritual of course the feast was the seder and the accounts of it are very clear on this point the difference is the connection between the bread and wine and the body and blood of god this is an old association of the tammuz osiris mithras line and not really related to judaism in any case i didn t really intend to argue the point i saw a possible association and pointed it out but i haven t the foggiest notion what really happened larry caldwell caldwell ohsu edu compuserve oregon health sciences university
talk.religion.misc	re burden of proof in article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes actually both are positive arguments positive may not be the best description here due to possible misunderstanding but it s the term you used positive arguments assertions can be both affirmative i e god exists and negative i e god does not exist both carry an equal burden of proof because they are both asserting that a certain idea is true the default condition in the absence of a preponderance of evidence either way is that the proposition or assertion is undecidable and the person who takes the undecidable position and says that he she simply disbelieves that the proposition is true is the only one who holds no burden of proof this is why the so called weak atheist position is virtually unassailable not because it stands on a firm foundation of logical argument but because it s proponents simply disbelieve in the existence of god s and therefore they hold no burden of proof when you don t assert anything you don t have to prove anything that s where weak atheism draws its strength but its strength is also its achilles heel without assertions axioms one has no foundation upon which to build as a philosophy it s virtually worthless imo of course so if i were to assert that there are no thousand year old invisible pink unicorns residing in my walls i need to support this with evidence i think the lack of evidence shall suffice who happen to like listening to satanic messages found in playing beethoven s th symphony backwards fbi officials said cult leader david koresh may have forced followers to remain as flames closed in koresh s armed guard may have injected as many as children with poison to quiet them and god saw everything he had made and behold in was very good genesis
talk.religion.misc	the fact of the theory in article c u p nx usenet ucs indiana edu adpeters sunflower bio indiana edu andy peters writes stuff deleted andy i think we do agree given your clarification of how we were each using the terms fact and theory i ll only add that i think perhaps i feel more strongly about separating them though your usage is quite valid note that the fact of evolution is still a theory in other words it could theoretically still be falsified and rejected but since it s so predictive and so consistently supported by evidence it seems pointless to explicitly try to falsify it anymore i ll add here that any falsification or rejection does not in any way reduce its current usefulness so long as it accurately predicts or describes things we can observe not to be a pain in the ass but is there any reason you don t just say the theory of evolution rather than the fact of evolution is still a theory i m asking because this whole thread got started because i was bothered by a post that referred to the fact of evolution basically leaving off the phrase is still a theory without a clarification like the one you just gave just saying the fact of evolution has a very different meaning to me description of atomic theory and alternative theories of gravity deleted both are very useful models that have no religious overtones or requirements of faith unless of course you want to demand that it is a factual physical entity described exactly the way the theory now formulated talks about it here is where you fail to make an important distinction you have shoehorned the facts of the existence of gravity and atoms and evolution into one category with the theories which have been proposed to explain the mechanisms the existence of these things is so predictive as to be considered fact the mechanisms on the other hand are still worth discussing i m not sure i agree here again it may be because i feel stronger about separating terms i was trying to say that the theories proposed to explain the mechanisms and the mechanisms themselves are the only realities here it is the existence of mechanisms not the things themselves that are so predictive as to be considered fact as you would say there aren t really little planetary particle systems called atoms out there or i should say and more to my original point it would be a leap of faith to say there are because we observe only the mechanisms there is no need to believe there are actually atoms out there as we have decided to think about them it s enough to discuss the mechanisms at any rate i m not sure i am being any clearer than before but i thought it was worth a shot the bottom line though is i think we agree on two fundamental ideas evolution is a theory supported by observational evidence my way the fact of evolution is a theory supported by observational evidence your way creation is just an opinion if a theist wants to call it a theory then he can i won t it has no supporting evidence and it neither predicts nor supports any observations that can be made with no mechanisms to talk about there really isn t much to say do you agree jim halat halat bear com bear stearns whatever doesn t kill you will only serve to annoy you nyc i speak only for myself
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article r qab o v horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article y rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew mathew mantis co uk writes frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article n rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew mathew mantis co uk writes this is complete nonsense relativism means saying that there is no absolut standard of morality it does not mean saying that all standards of morality are equally good presumably this means that some moral systems are better than others how so how do you manage this without an objective frame of reference either frank o dwyer or mathew said stiff deleted which goes faster a bullet or a snail how come you can answer that when einstein proved that there isn t an objective frame of reference stiff deleted speed is a quantifiable measure resulting from a set of methods that will result in the same value measured no matter the reference a bullet with zero velocity sitting on a table on a train moving mph will be moving at a speed of a mph to someone on the train b mph to someone stationary next to the train the reference frame makes the speed relative but what s interesting here is that every person on the train will see a stationary bullet every person off a bullet moving mph i know of no train where all the people on it every time it is filled will see a moral problem in exactly the same way jim halat halat bear com bear stearns whatever doesn t kill you will only serve to annoy you nyc i speak only for myself
talk.religion.misc	no news is bad news i m having trouble receiving news at the moment due to an overloaded news server i think that i can post out reasonably quickly though i m in a couple of threads at the moment which may be pending replies if anyone wants a reply from me over something i ve posted then i suggest sending an e mail copy of the point to me so that i can reply by news this is one way to shut me up cheers david on religion oh where is the sea the fishes cried as they swam its clearness through
talk.religion.misc	re food for thought on tyre there has been a lot of discussion about tyre in sum ezekiel prophesied that the place would be mashed and never rebuilt as there are a lot of people living there it would appear that ezekiel was not literally correct this doesn t bother me at all because i understand the language ezekiel used differently than do so called biblical literalists for example it sometimes happens that someone says my grandson is the cutest baby and then turns around and sees the granddaughter and says oh isn t she the cutest thing this person is not literally claiming to have lined up all the babies in the world according to cuteness and discovered his own grandchildren tied for first rather he is trying to express his emotions using words that are very object oriented because this example is one that is common to many people nobody misunderstands the intent of the statements the bible however is often at the mercy of people who assume that everything within must be exactly literally true for those people the existence of tyre is a problem for me it is not turning to the latest person trying to defend ezekiel we read this from john e king the prophesy clearly implies that people would still be living in the area no it implies nothing of the kind if you had nothing but the prophecy from ezekiel and you were told you interpret it literally you would never say oh he means that there will be houses and businesses and plants and stuff like that you would read i will make you a bare rock and you will never be rebuilt and you d conclude that tyre would be a bare rock the only way to get from fishing nets to houses and buildings and a medium large population is if you know that all that latter stuff is there in other words your answer means that ezekiel misled everybody who read the prophecy at the time it was written there is no way that given a literal reading they could read this passage and conclude medium size city you seem to feel that never be rebuilt means be rebuilt maybe so but it is hardly a clear implication mr king also writes so far i ve seen stated figurers ranging from to let s assume the latter one is correct by modern standards we are talking about a one horse town well no that s only a bit less than the population of annapolis where i m from you know the naval acadamy the state capital george washington resigned his commission in the statehouse annapolis may not be new york but it s at least a two horse town but supposing people is a small town it s still people more than ezekiel predicted and you ve said nothing about the other problem in chapter ezekiel predicts that nebuchadnezzar will will destroy tyre and loot all their valuables however nebuchadnezzar did not destroy tyre and in chapter ezekiel even quotes god as saying he and his army got no reward from the campaign he led against tyre let s ignore alexander for a moment and just pay attention to chapter ezekiel says n would destroy tyre and n did not destroy tyre ezekiel says that n would plunder their valuables but n did not plunder their valuables regardless of what you think about tyre now the fact is that n died before the place was destroyed ezekiel said n was going to do it and n did not this post is of course pointless inerrantists have an amazing ability to rewrite the bible as needed to fit whatever they want it to say for example i expect mr king to respond to the comments about ezekiel by pulling some clear implications out of hat when ezekiel said that n would demolish your towers that clearly implied that the walls would still be standing so people would know where the towers used to be and when ezekiel said that n would demolish your fine houses and throw your stones timber and rubble into the sea that clearly implied that n would never set foot on the island and when ezekiel wrote that n would build a ramp up to your walls that clearly implies that n would spend years stomping around on the mainland and never get close to the walls see a few clear implications that are totally contrary to the text and you can reconcile anything you want darren f provine kilroy gboro rowan edu do you know why i m the enabler because you demand it cliff claven
talk.religion.misc	re societal basis for morality in article merlyn digibd merlyn digibd digibd com merlyn leroy writes prayer in school is legal what is illegal is telling children what to pray or not to pray many people confuse you can t tell kids that they ought to pray now with kids aren t allowed to pray possibly because so few kids do so without being told or perhaps it s because they think that all governmental bodies should be in the business of suppressing all beliefs other than their own or else they re some sort of satanic humanist conspiracy it s the old if you re not for us you re against us bit emp
talk.religion.misc	re christians above the law was clarification of pe when are we going to hear a christian answer to this question in paraphrase on what or whose authority do christians proclaim that they are above the law and above the prophets major and minor and not accountable to the ten commandments of which jesus clearly spoke his opinion in matthew what is the source of this pseudo doctrine who is the pseudo teacher who is the great deceiver ok here s at least one christian s answer jesus was a jew not a christian in this context matthew makes sense matt do not think that i jesus came to abolish the law or the prophets i did not come to abolish but to fulfill jesus lived under the jewish law however he was the culmination of the promises of the prophets he came to fulfill the prophecies and fully obey god s purposes verse says for truly i say to you until heaven and earth pass away not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the law until all is accomplished the key to this verse imho is the last phrase jesus as the fulfillment of the law accomplished what the law was supposed to accomplish verse whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments and so teaches others shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven but whoever keeps and teaches them he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven taken in the context of jesus teaching jewish people about living lives under the law this makes sense in general it appears that jesus is responding to some criticism he must have received about doing away with the law that was not jesus intent at all he had come to earth to live the law as it should be lived and fulfill the promises made by god to his people all the way back to eve gen the serpent will bruise your heel but he will bruise his head jesus appeared to be doing away with the law because he did not honor the traditions of men as equal to the law of god he regularly locked horns with the religious leaders of the day because he would not conform to their rules only god s law in the matthew passage jesus is defending his dedication to the law and defending himself against his accusors almost the entire sermon on the mount matt is dedicated to helping the jewish people understand the true intent of the law sweeping away the clutter which had been introduced by the pharasees and their traditions in galatians paul describes the relationship of jesus to the law in this way but before faith came we were kept in custody under the law being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed therefore the law has become our tutor to lead us to christ that we may be justified by faith but now that faith has come we are no longer under a tutor for you are all sons of god through faith in christ jesus i believe this says that after christ was revealed the law had served it s purpose i e our tutor to lead us to christ and now we are no longer under a tutor the law has been fulfilled as christ said he would do god the author of the old law and the christ man jesus are the same personality therefore the old law and the new testament the last will and testament of jesus are based on the same moral principles it makes sense that many of the principles in the old law are re expressed in christianity on the other hand now that the law has fulfilled it s purpose and christians relate to god through christ not the law it also makes sense that new practices and new symbolisms were established to represent the mysteries of this new relationship i e baptism representing christ s death burial and resurrection rom the lord s supper as a memorial to his sacrifice i cor and sunday as a day of worship commemorating his resurrection matt ff acts ok that s one christian s explanation i don t claim to have all these issues completely settled even in my own mind and i welcome other christians to offer other alternatives please excuse the long posting thanks for your interest if you have read this far john nunnally nunnally acs harding edu
talk.religion.misc	re alt sex stories under literary critical analy in sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com writes in article qevbh h v agate berkeley edu dzkriz ocf berkeley edu dennis kriz wrote i m going to try to do something here that perhaps many would not have thought even possible i want to begin the process of initiating a literary critical study of the pornography posted on alt sex stories to identify the major themes and motifs present in the stories posted there opening up then the possibility of an objective moral evaluation of the material present there dennis i m astounded i didn t know you were interested to even study such filth as alt sex stories provide cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net finally brethern whatever is true whatever is honorable whatever is right whatever is pure whatever is lovely whatever is of good repute if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise let your mind dwell on these things phil more cheers john nunnally acs harding edu
talk.religion.misc	re that kill by sword must be killed by sword in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes in article c tcz z rbdc wsnc org royc rbdc wsnc org roy crabtree wrote in article apr utarlg uta edu b zaw utarlg uta edu stephen writes in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes so are you happy now when people including innocent kids died today it s amazing how everyone automatically blames one side or the other one thing for sure koresh will have no chance to defend himself against the statements lacking in fact or court sponsored verification made by agents who participated in the situation that killed him frankly speaking i don t care who started this whole show i just feel sad about the children that were trapped and had to die for a case that didn t have any reason whatsoever all mr koresh could have done would have been to release these children could he and the first three that died when guns ablazing in came the batf and fbi i imagine i would have some trouble giving up my children to someone who had just shot what two of them nb it takes two sets of guns in a situation like this yes i put the blame on koresh and similar fanatical religious leaders that think more about their cause than about keeping fanatical those whowill not tolerate another s way of life religious based on emotional internal or otherwise lacking in commonly defined scientific basis including legal ones such as this old saw innocent untilproven guilty not innocent until presumed guilty who is the fanatic note who is dead this usually bespeaks a fair bit for the idea that the other side also had lethal weapons used fatally they are dead the children at best koresh was an asshole and the government criminally negligent in its hadni ling of the case at worst koresh and his followers were innocent not brainwashed guilty of illegal arms possession as yet unproven and murderedd along with children they cannot speak for themselves members of the surviving alive and not burned to death batf fbi can and are inappropriately to the public eye outside the bounds of their legal authorities read the charter the constitution specifies that the courts convict while the enforcement arm investigates and that the evidence involved shuld not be disseminated in a way to harm or injure a party involved prior to that action its called slander or libel even where factually true butthen distoted or disseminated with intent to harm for the purpose of covering their butts because the bottom line is they said they wanted the kids to get out alive and thefbi the batf ms reno the prez and everybody else in this sick selfserving group of upright animals that used to be a freedom loving peaceful country called america look up the name it might surprise you has turned the point the finger of blame on the other guy and let those kids die note well they lived days they only died when attacked by outside force spock s world diane duane the spear in the heart of another is the spear in your own all of us are responsible iam you are the question is not whether but how guess what you get to make up your own mind on that children out from the war zone i m not ashamed of this statement who created the war zone you should be ashamed of bypassing that it s the same damned literally comment made by the folks in the former yugoslavia to justify ethnic cleansing gee they had the guns all they had to do was surrender to justify other means does not eliminate the fact that children died for a cause that they should not have been part of whose cause did they die for the one where they lived peacibly to all known purposes until proven in court folks or the cuase of righteous government safeguarding the freedom of the children who are now dead againi say i do not know who did what i was not there the fbi leaders show moral sickness trying to convict in the press ahead of schedule and you should look over your shoulder becuase if there is anything my ruminations that actually sets onto real fact of what happened and i do not know that i am defending people who ahving been burned to death cannot speak for themselves you may in years find that the concept in our court system has gone from due processss to due profit and the batf come to collect their fair share of the tax on the value of your house if you rented it for income which is going down now folks read bankruptcy its accurate in figures and it bypasses the greedy businessman and mankers who have taken profit from the corruption of our govbernment look to where the money went folks you got for medicare that paid a doctor for worth of medicine this is the customaryprofitmargin to businessmen for goernment entitlements who wll own the land of the cult now note well it was nonproift religious and nontaxable large tract of land hmmm use your brains folks it happened germany and it can happen here trillion admitted and counting kent royc sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re a message for you mr president how do you know what happened in article bskendigc rcbg azp netcom com bskendig netcom com brian kendig writes visser convex com lance visser writes they cut off the water there were no fire trucks present they refused to bring in fire equipment for fear that the firemen would be shot at and the fbi atf go blasting holes into the builing and firing gas munitions they used a tank to knock a hole in the wall and they released non toxic non flammable tear gas into the building take a second look at non toxic non flammable mace sold tothe public is supposedly nontoxic whatthey do not tell you is that if you get mace directly on the linings of the lungs such as a direct snort to the face above certain quantities it reacts similarly to a mustard gas inhalation i know my father and grandfather were exposed to poison gas in wwi and wwii dad went through the side effects of any weapon including those non toxic aerosols what the label actually means is usually it wont kill you it may give you permanent css asthsma but that s better than blowing a hole in your head all aerosols are flammable if you have enough oxygen and hit it with the right igniter some of the most non flammable substances known will boom or searflame if you hit it with the right combo let s take one a trash can fire makes black smoke already burned right can t go boom right wrong suck that smoke made up of paper that has carbonized or burned about of the fuel in it into an air conditioning return mix with about air and light a match feet of conduit is about the same when filled with that smoke mixture as oh say pounds tnt that is why the fire codes say no open ceiling tiles in buildings because stories of a building have blown out by nonflammable smoke so take a little nonflammable aerosol mix with gasoline or kerosene fumes no electricity remeber a bit of heating on the waco plains boil water to drink since the water was cut off liberally mix and allow to settle for hours fumes vent down into the bus underground and the davidians move the children upstairs to a saferoom they had one armor plated remember to breath because kids get sick and die from tear gas and along comes a tracer a spark what have you everyone burns to death try thinking before opening mouth it may not have happened the way the gmen say it did brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun bskendig netcom com de ceux que j ai vus j ose croire n etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent the meaning of life si je ne vaux pas mieux au moins je suis autre is that it ends rousseau
talk.religion.misc	re a message for you mr president how do you know what happened in article c tbyd zd dscomsa desy de hallam zeus desy de writes hang on you missed the point entirely they are protesting the lack of water because it deprived koresh of his constitutional right to prove his divinity by walking on it you can tell folks when the man has run out of reason attack the man s beliefs in legal terminology argument ad hominem attack the man not what he did that has yet to be proven illegal and the fbi atf go blasting holes into the builing and firing gas munitions they used a tank to knock a hole in the wall and they released non toxic non flammable tear gas into the building you can tell that the gas did not burn because dispite the fact that wrongo remember the fire movie a couple of years ago backdraft the scene in the factory with propane gas coming out of pipes and gasoline all over the floor with a degree flame front overhead note that it did not flash all at once fires ignite and burn unpredictably gases like tear gas mix and distribute unevenly and flash unevenly you are not a fire analyst you cannnot tell nb neither am i and i cannot tell nor is the fbi spokesman nor is reno maybe we all should shut up and get a forensics analysis first the building was full of it there was no flash of gas flame yes there was a flash in one room just pumped full of it phill hallam baker royc
talk.religion.misc	re a message for you mr president how do you know what happened in article qvv u kc morrow stanford edu salem pangea stanford edu bruce salem writes i think that the consensus will become that fbi atf muffed it not merely because they walked into an ambush on feb and koresh got his prophesy today against their stated intentions but because they played right into polarizing the situation and not diffusing it koresh had set up all the conditions of a classic cult confrontation and had stated publically what the outcome would become before or after his kids were shot the government upped the ante and parcipitated the conclusion today it does seem that the fires were set from within the compound by the members of the group and not caused by the cs gas or the way it was delivered let the subsequent investigation shed light on that suppose then why make the comment that the government had used pyrotechnics and started the fire the dividians still had the decision to stay or leave they never intended as did the jews against the nazis in ww ii do what i say or die to leave the building burns almost everyone dies it probably doesn t bother you much but it bothers many other people most of whom dont believe particularly in koresh or his message all humans i hope yes the finger pointing has begun four atf agents and branch davidians are now dead because of crazy tactics on the part of the atf and fbi yeah they blew it they were being too rational in a situation that was not your ordianry criminal game they haven t learned that much from jonestown or the move house or the sla shootout or perhaps they have kill first blame the dead ones destroy all the evidence royc
talk.religion.misc	re a message for you mr president how do you know what happened in article c s ck bt apollo hp com nelson p apollo hp com peter nelson writes who would be alive today if they had been released back when we were the word released is loaded until convicted in cxourt my children are my own when the feds use this type of loaded logic you cannot win we accuse you we shoot a couple of your kids we blame you for those shots we harrass you for days we tell you to come out or die we gas you you burn to death we blame you prior to trial for all of it debating this a few weeks ago peter
talk.religion.misc	re a message for you mr president how do you know what happened in article keng tunfaire keng den mmc com ken garrido writes lotsa stuff taken out bottom line due process was not served no peaceful attempt to serve a warrant occurred think on that royc
talk.religion.misc	re a message for you mr president how do you know what happened in article c srew fcg noose ecn purdue edu tbrent bank ecn purdue edu timothy j brent writes give me a break what fireman should have to deal with a blaze like that and get shot at at the same time nearly all of them witness la firemen are among our real heroes most of the time i wonder when they were actually aasked to come or if they found out about the fire over the tv shot at by whom prove it these people were breaking the law i agree these weren t the best tactics when law replaces justice the system is dying or dead note that we had a small revolution years ago on this point they probably should have backed off pulled the perimeter way back and let them sit there with no media attention until they decided to come out the only other alternative i see would have been to send in a couple of special forces guys to capture or assassinate koresh but remember these fruit or perhaps just wait or maybeeven send in a few agents who are christian to sit down and pray outside the line try affinity rather than subversion loops were putting their lives on the lines voluntarily why should chuckle so would you if someone points a gun at you at that point you can die or live and if living means stayng in a building to keep badge carrying nuts off your kids i suspect you might as well both sides were wrong law abiding citizens have to put themselves in any more danger than necessary when dealing with a nut look at the man who jumped out of his bradley to grab a flaming women who was running back into the building yeah i would have to say they were trying to save those people i don t think i would risk my life that much to save someone that stupid that obviously didn t even want to be saved try again go see the movie sophie s choice grow up tim royc
talk.religion.misc	re abortion and private health coverage letters regarding in qk q fj agate berkeley edu dzkriz ocf berkeley edu dennis kriz writes if one is paying for a private health insurance plan and does not want abortion coverage there is no reason for that person to be complelled to pay for it just as one should not be compelled to pay for lipposuction coverage if one doesn t want that kind of coverage you appear to be stunningly ignorant of the underlying concept of health insurance dzkriz ocf berkeley edu rocker
talk.religion.misc	re merlin mithras and magick what an exciting thread finally mitra is sanskrit for friend as such he started out as an avatar of lord visnu mentioned first in the vedas later he seems to have risen to chief prominence worshipped by the persians associated with the sun but not the sun he is the lord of contract honor and obedience therefore naturally worshipped by soldiers he was ordered by the sun to slay the bull of heaven and he reluct antly agreed because of his obligation the blood of that bull spilled and grew all earth life then mitra and the sun sat down to eat worship of lord mitra ended in persia with the ascension of the zoroastrians hundreds of years later he was rediscovered and thrown into the official roman pantheon tm for some semi tricky reason i forget why but all references of him ended abruptly when he was stricken from same so apparently his worship was some sort of vehicle for advancement in the bureaucracy like membership in the communist party was in the soviet bloc the sociology of religion in ancient times is fascinating oh his b day was dec ahem i am not sure if the mystery cult really lasted after his was booted from the roman imperial god roster or what it contained mostly soldiers with levels of initiation they worshipped underground in caverns in pews the bull horns in those temples were for scaring away or impaling evil spirits i m not sure that they had mithraic significance or not i don t know that the ritual meal was of a cannibalistic nature as is the christian masses but eating deities goes way back to old kingdom egypt someone mentioned bullfighting did mithraists sacrifice bulls i forget more likely for a religious source might be the shower of bull s blood enjoyed by the worshippers of cybele on the day of blood cybele worship extended all throughout even up to france bigtime charles hope a si cunyvm a si cunyvm cuny edu government by reporters media ocracy
talk.religion.misc	waco conflagration precedents burning yourself alive seems a rough way to go given the waco bunch had other choices but it reminded me of the russian old believers who thinking the antichrist was coming in grew frantic when peter the great started westernizing russia and reforming the russian church a few years later they locked themselves in their churches and burned themselves alive by the thousands are there other cases of apocalypse obsessed christians resorting to self imolation is there a history of precedents andrew
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article r le mlj horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article r qp sk squick eitech com ekr squick eitech com eric rescorla writes in article r m r o horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article qvu jk kyle eitech com ekr kyle eitech com eric rescorla writes if almost all people agree that the sun exists in the usual uncritical sense and almost all people agree that a deal is bad it s a reasonable conclusion that the sun really does exist and that the deal really is bad i disagree completely until rather recently most people did not believe in evolution or the possibility of the atom bomb popular opinion is notoriously wrong about matters of fact true but nevertheless the basis of all matters of fact is overwhelming popular opinion and some overwhelming popular opinion is fact the sun shines if it were not so physics would be a personal matter assumed to be different for each of us there would be yourgravity and mygravity and no theoretical framework to encompass them and predict both this is simply complete nonsense the basis for matters of fact is if any class of opinion the majority of informed popular opinion for some value of informed i would really hate to base my knowledge of for instance qm on what the overwhelming popular opinion is the basis eric is people peering at the world and saying what they see i m talking about uninterpreted facts observations people do those agreement on some observations is a prerequisite for a theory that is more than personal yes that s true but you have to be clear exactly what is an uninterpreted observation it s pretty low level stuff the sun shines is already a lot higher level than that we can agree that i perceive brightness perhaps now i take an experience of good evil to be every bit as raw a fact as an experience of pain or vision that might seem like a good first pass guess but it turns out to be a pretty cruddy way to look at things because we all seem to have rather different opinions experiences about what is good and evil while we seem to be able to agree on what the meter says you re not comparing apples with apples if we all look at the same meter we ll agree if we re all in the same situation that s when we ll agree on fundamental values if at all people who say that nobody agrees on values to the same extent that they agree on trivial observations seem to be unaware of the extent of agreement on either huh what do you mean all in the same situation let s take me and dennis kriz as examples we re in pretty different situations but i think we can agree as to whether it s day or night i don t think we can agree as to whether or not abortion is morally acceptable yet we are certainly in the same difference of situations with respect to each other looks like weasel words to me frank i don t see that it s any evidence at all as i point out above i m really not interested very much in what the popular opinion is i m prepared to trust to some extent the popular opinion about direct matters of physical observation because by and large they accord with my own however if everyone else said the dial read and it looked like a to me i would hope that i would believe myself i e believing other people about these matters seems to have a reasonable probability of predicting what i would believe if i observed myself but the possibility exists that it is not since i know from observation that others disagree with me about what is good i believe i can discount popular opinion about good from the beginning as a predictor of my opinion i would say that the fact that it seems almost impossible to get people to agree on what is good in a really large number of situations is probably the best evidence that objective morality is bogus actually firstly if everyone else said the dial was and i saw i d check my lens prescription that s up to you i guess secondly your observation that people disagree shows nothing people may be looking at different things by virtue of being in different situations if i look at an elephant i ll see an elephant that doesn t imply that you will see an elephant if you look at an iguana this different situations stuff is pretty confusing frank how do we decide if we are in the same situation you mind explaining thirdly i question your assumption that when people disagree about how to achieve fundamental or secondary goals that they therefore do not have the same fundamental goals that seems to be the disagreement you refer to huh i don t think so i think that people disagree about fundamental goals ekr eric rescorla ekr eitech com would you buy used code from this man
talk.religion.misc	re biblical backing of koresh s tape cites enclosed in article apr woods ulowell edu cotera woods ulowell edu writes in article r j ie sbctri sbc com netd susie sbc com writes in article apr utarlg uta edu b zaw utarlg uta edu stephen writes for those who think david koresh didn t have a solid structure or sound biblical backing for his hour long tape broadcast i don t think anyone really cares about the solid structure of his sermon it s the deaths he s responsible for that concern most people i assume you have evidence that he was responsible for the deaths only my common sense the fire was caused by either koresh and his followers or by the fbi atf cia kgb and maybe the harper valley pta since you are throwing around the evidence arguement i ll throw it back can you prove any government agency did it please don t resort to they covered it up so that proves they did it or any wild theories about how the government agencies intentionally started the fire the key words are proof and evidence proves they did it all that thou shalt not kill stuff i d like to point out that the bible says do not commit murder the nkj translation mistranslates self defense was never considered murder the please explain how koresh was defending himself from those children who burned tim henrion southwestern bell technology resources thenrion sbctri sbc com
talk.religion.misc	re merlin mithras and magick caldwell facman ohsu edu larry caldwell writes kosinski us oracle com kevin osinski writes i recall reading in michael rutherford s novel sarum a scene in which the son of a roman nobleman living in britain takes part in a secret ceremony involving a bull he stands naked in a pit covered with some sort of scaffolding while assistants coax a bull to stand on the scaffolding they then fatally stab the bull which douses the worshipper in the pit with blood this is supposedly some sort of rite of passage for members of the bull cult i wonder if this is related to the mithras cult i don t know where rutherford got his information for this chapter the book is historical fiction and most of the general events which take place are largely based on historical accounts there is a rite like this described in joseph campbell s occidental mythology he also described levels of initiation i think i don t know where campbell got his info but i remember thinking he was being a little eclectic i also wonder what if any connection there is between the ancient bull cults and the current practice of bullfighting popular in some mediterranean cultures quite a bit if you haven t read campbell give him a try larry caldwell caldwell ohsu edu compuserve oregon health sciences university yes i cannot remeber which works i read about this in as it was many years ago this ritual was called the tarobaullum i believe the spelling may be off pope charles popec brewich hou tx us pope charles origin the brewers witch bbs houston tx
talk.religion.misc	re freemasonry and the southern baptist convention lowell locus com lowell morrison writes in article qv l oj usenet ins cwru edu ch cleveland freenet edu tony with the southern baptist convention convening this june to consider the charges that freemasonry is incompatible with christianity i thought the following quotes by mr james holly the anti masonic flag carrier would amuse you all the following passages are exact quotes from the southern baptist convention and freemasonry by james l holly m d president of mission and ministry to men inc n th st beaumont tx much drivel deleted jesus christ never commanded toleration as a motive for his disciples and toleration is the antithesis of the christian message page the central dynamic of the freemason drive for world unity through fraternity liberty and equality is toleration this is seen in the writings of the great writers of freemasonry page more drivel deleted i hope you all had a good laugh i know i did g tony a laugh tony this religeous bigot scares the shit out of me and that any one bothers to listen to him causes me to have grave doubts about the future of just about anything shades of the branch davidians jim jones and charlie manson uncle wolf member highland lodge f am grand lodge of california babtized a southern babtist and one who has beliefs beyond the teachings of either not to worry the masons have been demonized and harrassed by almost every major xian church there is for centuries now and still they stand they wil withstand the miserable southern boobtists i am sure they may even pick up a little support as people start to listen to the boobtists and realize that subtracting the obvious lies and claims of satanism that the masons sound pretty good by comparison one thing is known a sizable proportion of southern babtists are masons and the masons have already fired back in their own magazines against the boobtist witch hunt since the consrervatives have already been a divisive element with their war on boobtist moderates and liberals they may now start in on their mason boobtist brothers and hasten their own downfall as more and more southern boobtists realize their church can t stand being run by a handful of clowns looking for holy civil wars and purity tests and drop em out of the leadership positions they have taken over so as far as i am concerned the louder ruder and more outrageous an anti masonic crusade these old goats mount the better pop some pocorn and get a center row seat the circus is about to begin and oh look here come the clowns pope charles slack popec brewich hou tx us pope charles origin the brewers witch bbs houston tx
talk.religion.misc	re are atoms real was re after years blah blah blah petri and mathew your discusion on the reality of atoms is interesting but it would seem that you are verging on the question is anything real that is since observation is not reliable how can we say that anything is real i don t think this was the intention of the original question since you now define out the word real so that nothing can meet its criteria just a thought brian ps rainbows and shadows are real they are not objects they are phenomenon an interesting question would be if atoms are objects classical or phenomenon neo quantum or what
talk.religion.misc	re a message for you mr president how do you know what happened bskendig netcom com brian kendig writes b zaw utarlg uta edu stephen tice writes one way or another so much for patience too bad you couldn t just wait was the prospect of god s message just too much to take so you believe that david koresh really is jesus christ you know everybody scoffed at that guy they hung up on a cross too he claimed also to be the son of god and it took almost two thousand years to forget what he preached love thy neighbor as thyself anybody else wonder if those two guys setting the fires were agent provacateurs cutter gloster via mind org chris all jobs are easy to the person who doesn t have to do them holt s law
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is in ursa bear com halat pooh bears jim halat writes in article qjd o nlv horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes firstly science has its basis in values not the other way round so you better explain what objective atoms are and how we get them from subjective values before we go any further atoms are not objective they aren t even real what scientists call an atom is nothing more than a mathematical model that describes certain physical observable properties of our surroundings all of which is subjective omigod it s an operationalist sorry jim but the idea that a theory explaining a myriad of distinctly different observations is merely a model is more than sensible people can accept your phobia about objective reality notwithstanding mark pundurs any resemblance between my opinions and those of wolfram research inc is purely coincidental
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is in v rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew mantis co uk mathew writes there s no objective physics einstein and bohr have told us that speaking as one who knows relativity and quantum mechanics i say bullshit there s no objective reality lsd should be sufficient to prove that speaking as one who has taken lsd i say bullshit one wonders just what people who ask such questions understand by the term objective if anything i consider it to be a useful fiction an abstract ideal we can strive towards like an ideal gas or a light inextensible string it doesn t actually exist but we can talk about things as if they were like it and not be too far wrong how could striving toward an ideal be in any way useful if the ideal had no objective existence mark pundurs any resemblance between my opinions and those of wolfram research inc is purely coincidental
talk.religion.misc	re rawlins debunks creationism in article apr rambo atlanta dg com wpr atlanta dg com bill rawlins writes we are talking about origins not merely science science cannot explain origins for a person to exclude anything but science from the issue of origins is to say that there is no higher truth than science this is a false premise by the way i enjoy science it is truly a wonder observing god s creation macroevolution is a mixture of percent science and percent religion guaranteed within three percent error let us explore this interesting paragraph point by point sentence by sentence we are talking about origins not merely science origins of what are we speaking of the origins of life the human species the universe physical law biological diversity or what science cannot explain origins this is a false statement unless it is carefully qualified it depends on what origins we are talking about for a person to exclude anything but science from the issue of origins is to say that there is no higher truth than science again this is a false statement to begin with the notion of higher truth is distinctly dubious many people believe that there are ways to ascertain truth that are not in the repetoire of science they even believe that there are ways that are more reliable and certain many believe that there are truths that cannot be expressed using the language of science let it be so these truths are neither higher or lower they are simply true more to the point restricting one s discussion of origins to science does not reject other sources of knowledge it simply restricts the scope of discussion this is a false premise if this is intended as asserting that the previous sentence was false then is actually true however the context identifies it as another false or at least theologically unsound statement by the way i enjoy science on the evidence mr rawlins lacks sufficient understanding of science to enjoy science in any meaningful sense one might just as well say that one enjoys literature written in a language that one cannot read however one cannot mark this sentence as false to follow the analogy perhaps he likes the pretty shapes of the letters it is truly a wonder observing god s creation let us not quibble count this one as true macroevolution is a mixture of percent science and percent religion guaranteed within three percent error still another false statement however one can make it come out true with the following contextual modification macroevolution as misunderstood by rawline is a mixture of percent of what rawlins erroneously thinks of as science and percent of what rawlins erroneously thinks of as religion it is distinctly noticeable that mr rawlins fails miserably to touch on truth except when he reports personally on what he feels i do him the justice of assuming that he is not misinforming us as to his personal reactions one can account for this by the hypothesis that he has an idiosyncratic and personal concept of truth richard harter smds inc net address rh smds com phone us mail smds inc po box concord ma fax in the fields of hell where the grass grows high are the graves of dreams allowed to die
talk.religion.misc	re albert sabin in article apr rambo atlanta dg com wpr atlanta dg com bill rawlins writes deletion since you have referred to the messiah i assume you are referring to the new testament please detail your complaints or e mail if you don t want to post first century greek is well known and well understood have you considered josephus the jewish historian who also wrote of jesus in addition the four gospel accounts are very much in harmony since this drivel is also crossposted to alt atheism how about reading the alt atheism faq the josephus quote is concidered to be a fake even by christian historians and the four gospels contradict each other in important points weren t you going to offer a scientific theory of creationism benedikt
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article qie fkt horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes objective morality is morality built from objective values and organized religion is a religion built from organized values and ford tempo is a tempo built from ford values and rational response is response built from rational values and unconditional surrender is surrender built from unconditional values uncle bye jim halat
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article apr wam umd edu judi wam umd edu jay t stein objectively subjective writes qhn m a horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer culled from a discussion on christianity and objective morals question is there any effective difference between objective values exist and there is disagreement over what they are and values are subjective i don t see any is there any difference in saying absolute truth exists but some people think its a lie and truth is relative i think there is in both examples the first statement is a fundamental disagreement between at least two people the second statement is agreed upon by all to put it another way someone who says objective values exist does not agree that values are subjective jim halat
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article qjbn na horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes really you don t know what objective value is if i offered the people of the u s collectively for all of the land in america would that sound like a good deal that happens to be a subjective example that the people of the us would happen to agree on continue to move the price up at some point a few people would accept then more then more until probably all would accept at a high enough number endpoints of a subjective scale are not the given homes of objective viewpoints jim halat
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article qjd o nlv horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes firstly science has its basis in values not the other way round so you better explain what objective atoms are and how we get them from subjective values before we go any further atoms are not objective they aren t even real what scientists call an atom is nothing more than a mathematical model that describes certain physical observable properties of our surroundings all of which is subjective what is objective though is the approach a scientist takes in discussing his model and his observations there is no objective science but there is an objective approach which is subjectively selected by the scientist objective in this case means a specified unchanging set of rules that he and his colleagues use to discuss their science this is in contrast to your objective morality there may be an objective approach to subjectively discuss your beliefs on morality but there exists no objective morality also science deals with how we can discuss our observations of the physical world around us in that the method of discussion is objective not the science not the discussion itself science makes no claims to know the whys or even the hows sometimes of what we can observe it simply gives us a way to discuss our surroundings in a meaningful consistent way i think it was neils bohr who said to paraphrase science is what we can say about the physical world jim halat
talk.religion.misc	re a message for you mr president how do you know what happened in c sqya f v noose ecn purdue edu tbrent bank ecn purdue edu timothy j brent writes probably not but then i don t pack heavy weaponry with intent to use it please cite your evidence that he was intending to use it you don t really think he should have been allowed to keep that stuff do you why not if so tell me where you live so i can be sure to steer well clear check the sig the public also has rights and they should be placed above those of the individual society does not have rights only individuals have rights go ahead call me a commie ok your a commie but you d be singing a different tune if i exercised my right to rape your daughter you think you have a right to rape anyone no wonder you don t care about the rightws of others he broke the law please indicate which law you feel koresh broke and when was he convicted of said crime he was a threat to society so you feel that owning guns makes him a threat to society when are y ou going to start going after knives and baseball bats as well or do you feel that someone who spouts unpopular ideas is by definition a threat to society they did there job simple it is simple if you think that there job is to assualt civilians support your first second fourth fifth sixth and eighth amendment rights lest they be taken away from you just as the fbi did to the davidians think about it i ll support them all except no in other words you don t support any of them mob rule isn t any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government it ain t charity if you are using someone else s money wilson s theory of relativity if you go back far enough we re all related mark wilson atlantaga ncr com
talk.religion.misc	re apr god s promise in john starowl rahul net michael d adams writes if anyone in netland is in the process of devising a new religion do not use the lamb or the bull because they have already been reserved please choose another animal preferably one not on the endangered species list how about washed in the blood of barney the dinosaur judging from postings i ve read all over usenet and on non usenet bbs conferences barney is definitely an endangered species especially if he runs into me in a dark alley a lizard a lizard internet addresses alizard tweekco boo pacbell com preferred pacbell com boo tweekco alizard bang path for above alizard gentoo com backup pgp public key available on request
talk.religion.misc	re oto the ancient order of oriental templars thyagi cup portal com thyagi morgoth nagasiva writes this organization is known at the present time as the ancient order of oriental templars ordo templi orientis otherwise the hermetic brotherhood of light does this organization have an official e mail address these days an address for any of the sf bay area lodges e g thelema would do a lizard a lizard internet addresses alizard tweekco boo pacbell com preferred pacbell com boo tweekco alizard bang path for above alizard gentoo com backup pgp public key available on request
talk.religion.misc	new religion forming sign up let me begin by saying i think this is the world s first religion to use the net as its major recruitment medium therefore even if this religion does not take off its founding members will be very important historically as this method of soliciting membership will eventually become common the basis of this religion is to apply various aspects of current conventional morality to the characters in genesis and exodus but assume that the bible s accounts of the facts and historical events is correct for example story of adam and eve adam and eve are in garden of eden naked and ignorant have unlimited supply of food provided but no clothing jobs or knowledge god says not to eat fruit of tree of knowledge they do anyway then try to hide in bushes god finds them and forces them out of garden there are several different stories on what they were doing while naked in the bushes that might have angered god traditional philosophy the only reason you need knowledge or a job is to eat if someone else will provide you with food then you can be stupid and unemployed and it s ok this is why married women usually didn t work until recent decades authority figures such as god whoever was behind the vietnam war hitler and slaveowners are always right and should be blindly followed without question by ordinary people who can t make decisions for themselves interpretation of events based on traditional philosophy they were not supposed to eat the fruit they should have done whatever god told them to like small children they had their needs provided for and were obligated to do whatever their father said to being forced to leave the garden and work in order to obtain food was a punishment lessons from traditional interpretation ignorance is good knowledge is bad but tempting having food provided for you for nothing read welfare is ideal get ting a job and feeding yourself with what you earn is punishment public nudity is good covering up is bad authority figures are intrinsically right normal people are dumb and should do whatever they are told without question they should not think for themselves people in subordinate positions are especially obligated to refrain from learning for example it should be illegal for slaves to learn to read s philosophy people should seek education and employment outside the home unless named hillary clinton or murphy brown people should use common sense they should not kill other people binding of issac wars holocaust etc just because they are told to interpretation of events based on current philosophy they were supposed to eat the fruit god gave wanted them to seek knowledge rather than be handed it on a silver platter once they had gained knowledge and by seeking it showed their ability to make mature decisions for them selves they no longer needed to be treated like little children and were rewarded by being allowed into the real world lessons from new interpretation ignorance is bad knowledge is good but must be sought having food provided for you for nothing read welfare is at best a temporary measure getting a job and feeding yourself with what you earn is ideal public nudity is bad covering up is good authority figures are often wrong normal people are intelligent and should consider whether the instructions are really a good idea and alter or abolish bad governments they should think for themselves people in subordinate decisions are often discouraged from knowledge but should seek it anyway and all the harder for example poor children without good schools should work especially hard in order to make a better life for their children and themselves i have tentatively named this new philosophy the church of eveism because eve s decision to eat the apple is man sic kind s first good decision instead of its first bad one as traditionally believed she is therefore clearly a protagonist god at first appears evil for telling people not to seek knowledge but on deeper analysis is also a protagonist as god rewarded the decision to defy him and provided the tree in the first place the intention and desire were clearly to have the knowledge be obtained but to delay it until it was actively sought end serious discussion begin humor save this post to disk or file server someday it will be considered the most important writing since the commandments you want an original copy stay tuned for the rfd on soc religion eveism can i get a tax deduction for money i donate to this organization return to serious discussion when posting follow ups stephen weinstein weinss rpi edu
talk.religion.misc	o t o clarification sorry the san jose based rosicrucian order is called a m o r c i don t remember for the time being what the a m stand for but o r c is ordo rosae crucis in other words latin for order of the rose cross sigh seems l m loosing more and more of my long term memory otherwise their headquarters in san jose has a pretty decent metaphysical bookstore if any of you are interested in such books and my son loves to run around in their egyptian museum cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re catholic lit crit of a s s in dlphknob camelot dlphknob camelot bradley edu writes in apr mtechca maintech com foster mtechca maintech com writes i am surprised and saddened i would expect this kind of behavior from the evangelical born again gospel thumping in your face we re the only true christian protestants but i have always thought that catholics behaved better than this please do not stoop to the level of the e b a g t i y f w t o t c protestants who think that the best way to witness is to be strident intrusive loud insulting and overbearingly self righteous pleading mode on please i m begging you quit confusing religious groups and stop making generalizations i m a protestant i m an evangelical i don t believe that my way is the only way i m not a creation scientist i don t think that homosexuals should be hung by their toenails if you want to discuss bible thumpers you would be better off singling out and making obtuse generalizations about fundamentalists if you compared the actions of presbyterians or methodists with those of southern baptists you would think that they were different religions sarcasm on be sure we pick on the correct groups here bible thumpers fundamentalists and southern baptists deserve our hasty generalizations and prejudicial statements just don t pick on the presbyterians and the methodists sarcasm off please prejudice is about thinking that all people of a group are the same so please don t write off all protestants or all evangelicals pleading mode off god i wish i could get ahold of all the thomas stories fbzr enval jvagre fhaqnlf jura gurer f n yvggyr oberqbz lbh fubhyq nyjnlf pneel n tha abg gb fubbg lbhefrys ohg gb xabj rknpgyl gung lbh er nyjnlf znxvat n pubvpr yvan jregzhyyre jemaleddin sasha david cole iv chief of knobbery research dlphknob camelot bradley edu
talk.religion.misc	re alt sex stories under literary critical analysis in article qevbh h v agate berkeley edu dzkriz ocf berkeley edu dennis kriz wrote i m going to try to do something here that perhaps many would not have thought even possible i want to begin the process of initiating a literary critical study of the pornography posted on alt sex stories to identify the major themes and motifs present in the stories posted there opening up then the possibility of an objective moral evaluation of the material present there dennis i m astounded i didn t know you were interested to even study such filth as alt sex stories provide cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re abortion to margoli watson ibm com larry margolis from anthony landreneau ozonehole com lm the rape has passed there is nothing that will ever take that away lm true but forcing her to remain pregnant continues the violation of lm her body for another months i see this as being unbelievably cruel life is not a violation as for cruel killing a living being solely because it exsist that my friend is down right cold anthony slmr what s the difference between an orange the ozone hole bbs a private bulletin board service full service nodes usrobotics k bps gigs files skydive new orleans rime network mail hub usenet newsgroups please route all questions or inquiries to postmaster ozonehole com
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is in article pww spac at rice edu pww spacsun rice edu peter walker writes in article apr rotag mi org kevin rotag mi org kevin darcy wrote the phenomenologist husserl for one considered intentionality to be the primary ontological stuff from which all other ontology was built perceptions consciousness thoughts etc frank is by no means alone in seeing intentionality or values as he puts it underlying all human experience even the so called objective experiences such as measurements of the natural world or the output of your des chip and others of us see it as intellectual masturbation i ll defer to your greater firsthand knowledge in such matters kevin
talk.religion.misc	re after years can we say that christian morality is in my mind to say that science has its basis in values is a bit of a reach science has its basis in observable fact i d say that what one chooses to observe and how the observation is interpreted and what significance it s given depends a great deal on the values of the observer science is a human activity and as such is subject to the same potential for distortion as any other human activity the myth that scientists are above moral influence or ethical concern that their knowledge can be abstacted whole and pure from nature untainted by the biases of the scientist is nonsense bill if one is to argue for objective values in a moral sense then one must first start by demonstrating that morality itself is objective considering the meaning of the word objective i doubt that this will ever happen so back to the original question and objective morality is this may be an unfortunate choice of words almost self contradictory objective in the sense used here means something immutable and absolute while morality describes the behavior of some group of people the first term is all inclusive the second is specific the concept supposedly described may have meaning however if there is a god as described by the christians for instance then he has existence apart from and independent of humankind his existence is outside of our frame of reference reality if this being declares a thing to be so it is necessarily so since he has defined himself as omnipotent and if his claims are to be believed he is at least omnipotent relative to us god is intrinsically self defined and all reality is whatever he says it is in an objective sense if god determines a standard of conduct that standard is objective if human beings are held accountable for their conformance to that standard while permitted to ignore it they substitute a relative morality or mode of conduct giving the term morality a nebulous meaningless sense that can be argued about by those pretending to misunderstand the standard is objective and the conduct required to meet that standard is therefore objectively determined just because it is convenient to pretend that the term morality is infinitely malleable doesn t mean that the objective standard itself doesn t exist morality has come to mean little more than a cultural norm or the preferred conduct of decent people making it seem subjective but it is derived from an absolute objective standard ironically this objective standard is in perfect accord with our true nature according to christianity at least yet is condemned as being contrary to human nre oppressive and severe this may be due as bill much to our amoral inclinations as to the standard itself but like it or not it s there x
talk.religion.misc	re flaming nazis okay i ll bite i should probably leave this alone but what the heck in article apr sun urz uni heidelberg de gsmith lauren iwr uni heidelberg de gene w smith writes in article tt r b w w brewich hou tx us popec brewich hou tx us pope charles writes rhoemer was the name of the guy responsible for much of the uniforms and props used by the early nazis in their rallies and such the name is roehm not rhoemer and hitler does claim that he came up with the swastika business but didn t he credit the actual flag design to a party member some dentist or other i believe he gives such credit in mein kampf he was killed in an early nazi purge he and many of his associates were flaming homosexuals well know also for their flamboyant orgies i have been trying to find if there is any actual evidence for this common assertion recently postings to such groups as soc history and soc culture german has not uncovered any net experts who could provide any well i m no expert but all of the histories of nazi germany assert this they make reference to several scandals that occurred long before the night of the long knives the impression that i got was that homosexuality in portions of the sa was common knowledge also a book by a homosexual author whose name escapes me at the moment called homosexuals in history asserts that roehm and heines were homosexuals as well as others in roehm s sa circle all the books say that roehm and his associate edmund heines were homosexual i have been able to find nothing beyond that and suspect this to be a sort of historical urban legend well you re the one who is in germany if you don t believe the history books look up the primary sources yourself those of us outside of germany do not have access to these you do it seems to me that there were plenty of documented instances several scandals the fact that on the knight of the long knives several sa members including heines were found sleeping together etc also i believe some people were complaining about the sa s homosexual activities seducing young boys etc the histories that i ve read make a very convincing case none of this sounds like urban legend to me irving a notoriously unreliable historian says that funk the nazi finance minister was homosexual he gives no sources i know next to nothing about irving and nothing about funk what precisely do you know that would contradict all of the other history books that i have read concerning the existence of homosexual nazis are you trying to say that all historians are taking part in an anti homosexual smear what about homosexual writers who agree with the official history don t you think they would have found out the truth by now if roehm and heines were not homosexuals i would think they would want to disassociate homosexuality from nazism no one should use any connection between the two to bash homosexuals in any case i challenge anyone to document this claim if you are going to challenge all historians on this point not just irving then the burden of proof is on you track down the references find out where the stories originate from again you are the one in germany close to archival material most people on the net are not i have found a great deal of evidence that there were many flaming heterosexuals among the nazis this seems to include all of the worst ones hitler himmler goebbels goering heydrich eichmann and many more eh what is your agenda here to prove that the nazis were heterosexuals so that you can bash heterosexuals does it bother you that some of the nazis might have been homosexuals does this make all homosexuals bad if this is true of course not and what about bisexuals are they half nazis i don t know why it would be so difficult to believe that some nazis were homosexuals the german officer corps before ww for instance was notorious for its homosexuality there were numerous scandals which rocked the german govt during the late th and early th century many of the kaiser s friends were prosecuted the kaiser was no homosexual but the germany army had a long tradition of tolerating homosexuality going far back into prussian history back to frederick the great at least who was himself a homosexual roehm was a product of this prussian officer tradition and the old german army like the english public school system being a well known center of homosexuality would have been quite willing to overlook roehm s homosexuality in addition some nazis complained of homosexuality in the hitler youth the hitler youth swallowed up all pre nazi youth groups and some of the various pre war vandervogel bund and volkish youth groups were known to promote homoerotic ideals and friendship and in many cases homosexuality itself so it seems to me not unlikely that there were plenty of homosexual nazis regardless of the official nazi dogmas concerning the evils of homosexuality why should this suprise anyone homosexuality has always existed in all societies it would be most unusual if the nazis were an exception no i don t have any sources for you as i think the only kind of proof you will accept would be citations from archival material and i do not have access to these nor do i intend to reread every book on the nazis and on modern homosexuality that i have ever read i don t have the time nothing is stopping you however from chasing down those sources until you prove otherwise though i will stick with the established histories david matthew deane deane binah cc brandeis edu be in me as the eternal moods of the bleak wind let the gods speak softly of us in days hereafter ezra pound
talk.religion.misc	apr god s promise in philippians those things which ye have both learned and received and heard and seen in me do and the god of peace shall be with you philippians
talk.religion.misc	re apr god s promise in john in article rn b w w tweekco uucp alizard tweekco uucp a lizard wrote judging from postings i ve read all over usenet and on non usenet bbs conferences barney is definitely an endangered species especially if he runs into me in a dark alley please please don t make barney to a modern martyr saviour mythical figure i detest this being and if humans will create a religion in his name then life will be unbearable cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re disillusioned protestant finds christ in article c kxdd k j boi hp com jburrill boi hp com jim burrill wrote if jesus never taught the concept of the trinity how do you deal with the following mat then jesus came to them and said all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me mat therefore go and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit mat and teaching them to obey everything i have commanded you and surely i am with you always to the very end of the age jim please that s a lame explanation of the trinity that jesus provides above baptizing people in the name of three things trinity if this is the case then i m wrong i assumed that trinity implies that god is three entities and yet the same cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
talk.religion.misc	re biblical backing of koresh s tape cites enclosed netd susie sbc com writes in article apr utarlg uta edu b zaw utarlg uta edu stephen for those who think david koresh didn t have a solid structure or sound biblical backing for his hour long tape broadcast i don t think anyone really cares about the solid structure of his sermon it s the deaths he s responsible for that concern most people and i think we ought to hold christ accoountable for all of his followers who died at the hand of the romans also it was their own fault for believing god this society reminds me more of the roman empire every day i guess i ll just log off and go watch american gladiators cutter gloster via mind org chris all jobs are easy to the person who doesn t have to do them holt s law
talk.religion.misc	re albert sabin in article apr nntpd cxo dec com sharpe nmesis enet dec com system privileged account writes in article c ftjt sunfish usd edu rfox charlie usd edu rich fox univ of south dakota writes in article apr rambo atlanta dg com wpr atlanta dg com bill rawlins writes earlier dialogue deleted perhaps you should read it and stop advancing the bible as evidence relating to questions of science it did jesus exist by g a wells there is a great fallacy in your statement the question of origins is based on more than science alone nope no fallacy yep science is best in determining how religions handle why and who rich i am curious as to why you and others award custody of the baby to theists and religion i hope i didn t award custody rich i purposely used handle in order to avoid doing so i e that happens to be what religions do of course there are aberrations like scientific creationism i used best in part to indicate that science currently has a time of it with why and who so these domains are mostly ignored i also attempted to be brief which no doubt confused the matter as an aside for science i should have written how and when nobody seems to argue over what are they theists theologians any better equiped to investigate the who and why than magicians astrologers housewives not being sexists athiests or agnostics seems to me that the answer would vary from individual to individual i m not trying to be evasive on this but from a societal perspective religion works on the other hand sometimes it is abused and misused and many suffer which you know but the net result seems positive this from the anthropological perspective on human affairs you might call me a neo fruedian insofar as i think the masses can t get along without religion not that generally they are incapable they just don t and for myriad reasons but the main one seems to be the promise of immortality very seductive that immortality therefore it seems that theologians are better equipped than the others you mention for dispensing answers to who and why i suggest that this holds regardless of the truth in their answers to who and why simply because people believe in the end spiritual beliefs are just as real as scientific facts and explanation caution to some do not take this out of context do you suggest that the who and why will forever be closed to scientific investigation no in fact i don t think it is closed now at least for some individuals isn t there a group of theoretical physicists who argue that matter was created from nothing in a big bang singularity this approach might presuppose an absence of who and why except that it seems it could be argued that something had to be responsible for nothing maybe that something doesn t have to be supernatural maybe just mechanistic but that s a tough one for people today to grasp in any case theory without empirical data is not explanation but then your question does not require data in other words i agree that theorizing within scientific parameters is just as scientific as explaining so the answer is who and why are not closed to scientists but i sense that science in these realms is currently very inadequate data will be necessary for improvement and that seems a long way off if ever pretty convoluted here i hope i ve made sense it seems to me that or so years ago the question of the origin of life on earth was not considered open to scientific enquiry i agree generally but i prefer to put it this way the questions of how when who and why were not open to inquiry during the enlightenment reason was reponsible for questioning the theological answers to how and when and not for the most part who and why science was thus born out of the naturalists curiosity eventually carting away the how and when while largely leaving behind the who and why the ignorant the selfish the intolerant and the arrogant of course still claim authority in all four domains rich fox anthro usouthdakota did like your discussion around amhs and i did figure out what amh was from your original post much obliged funny how facts tend to muddle things isn t it well i am sure there are plenty of scientific creationist rebuttals out there somewhere even if they have to be created from nothing just for the record again amh anatomically modern humans best regards rich fox anthro usouthdakota
